Prominent Atheist Organization Closely Tied to Abortion Industry

FFRF LogoMADISON, Wisc. – A prominent atheist organization that routinely challenges Christians in court was founded with close ties to the abortion industry, according to recent reports.

Since 1978, the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) has promoted secularism and advocated for the so-called “separation of church and state.” The organization regularly challenges references to God or the Bible in schools, military bases, and other government-affiliated places.

As previously reported, FFRF has seen multiple victories in its fight against religion. In the past few months alone, the organization has been responsible for the censoring of God-honoring historical plaques, the suspension of a football coach who prayed with his team, the removal of Gideon Bibles on a college campus, the banning of coach-led prayers at a high school, the removal of Scriptures from a high school sculpture, and the distribution of anti-Christian materials in public schools.

As the FFRF’s crusade against religion continues, recent reports have revealed that the organization has had close ties to the abortion industry ever since its inception. According to a report from Madison’s Isthmus newspaper, Anne Gaylor founded FFRF in 1976 as an offshoot of the pro-abortion movement.

“[FFRF] grew out of the reproductive rights movement after the Gaylors saw legislative hearings packed with Catholic nuns, priests and schoolchildren and concluded religion was the root of women’s inequality,” Isthmus reports.

In addition to the FFRF, Gaylor co-founded the Women’s Medical Fund (WMF)—an organization whose sole purpose is to fund abortions. According to the Wisconsin State Journal, the WMF provides abortion support for pregnant women of all ages, including many young girls.

“Of the 632 women the fund has helped so far this year, 147 were teenagers,” Gaylor once wrote in a fundraising letter to the organization’s supporters. “Of these, nine were only 13 years old, and one, not yet a teen, was just 12!”

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So far, the WMF has financed over 20,000 abortions in Wisconsin. The FFRF, which has reportedly received grants from the WMF, praises the fund as “the largest continuously operating independent all-volunteer abortion fund in the nation,” saying “[a]lmost 100% of donations go directly to pay for abortion care.”

Gaylor, who authored a book titled Abortion Is A Blessing, has long been recognized as a leading advocate of abortion. In 2011, she received the Dr. George Tiller Memorial Award—named after the infamous abortionist who became known as “Tiller the Baby Killer.”

Christians who have recognized the FFRF’s close ties to the abortion industry say the connection is disconcerting. Steve McConkey, President of the Christian sports ministry 4 WINDS, said in a recent press release that the FFRF’s relationship with the abortion movement demonstrates the organization’s anti-Christian mission.

“The Freedom From Religion Foundation is not just about abolishing Christianity,” McConkey said in the release. “What they really desire is to eliminate biblical standards that Christians uphold. This is obvious when you see the connection to abortion.”

In an interview with Christian News Network, McConkey further explained the implications of FFRF’s pro-abortion position.

“This is an organization that not only has a hatred for Christianity, but a desire to see the most innocent harmed,” he warned. “They were founded on the principles of the Zero Population craze in the 70s. If they indirectly push the silent holocaust of abortion, they are no different than other evil movements that have eliminated innocent people in history.”

The FFRF’s fight against Christianity is ultimately a spiritual battle, McConkey says.

“We must remember we are in a spiritual battle,” he said. “The enemy blinds the eyes of people, especially as time progresses toward the end. Look at the world today—the lack of absolutes has created an open door for every kind of evil and can lead to evil leaders exploiting people. Evil builds if not checked by God’s absolutes.”

McConkey says that anti-Christian crusades were foretold in the Scriptures, but Christians should not stand idly by as “atheism opens the door to more evil.”

“The Bible does predict a hatred of God’s people and deception toward the end of time,” he stated. “We can expect this, but as Christians we need to stand up.”


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  • Eric Marsh

    Makes sense, since the abortion issue is essentially a religious one.

    • robertzaccour

      That’s like saying Hitler’s genocide of 6 million people is a religious issue. It is true that Christians are pro-life though. I’m a Christian BTW 😀

      • prinefan

        Religious people helped him do it. Khriztians turn the pro life switch to the off position when it impedes them getting their way and something they want. History and current events don’t lie. Religious people , hiding behind religion are the worst people in the world, they are usually responsible for, the cause of and gladly participate in in all the conflict religion causes in our world. I hate religion and the stuff people do as they hide behind that primitive, superstitious, made up, self serving nonsense.

        • robertzaccour

          Religious people aren’t necessarily Christians. People that claim to be doing evel things in the name of God aren’t Christians for sure. Even most people that call themselves Christians aren’t really. A Christian is a follower of Christ. If you’re not following Christ, you’re not a Christian.

          • prinefan

            Imaginary gods and religions are pure nonsense and idiotic,

          • pastoredsmith

            prinefan, you finally said something that makes sense. “Imaginary gods and religions are pure nonsense and idiotic.” Well said! Only the ONE TRUE GOD; His name is Jehovah and His only Son’s name is Jesus Christ can satisfy your soul. False religions confuse the world. Especially the false religion of atheism. And, since atheism is now a bona fide religion according to the IRS, it cannot be taught at public schools. Or at public buildings. Let go of your hate. It won’t bring you answers. Only questions with no answers.

        • pastoredsmith

          It is spelled “Christian.” But you know that and wish to demonstrate your hate, thinking that we will be intimidated by it. Human logic falters again. So, this is what you call “free thinking?” Right. You refuse to separate “religion” and “Christianity.” Atheists are religious in that you cling to your “doctrines.” Otherwise, the IRS would have never granted your group a tax exempt status. Atheism is the “church” of nothing. That is a wonderful tagline for Atheists. Think I’ll start using it. You really should let go of your hate. It causes you to see things from a distorted viewpoint.

        • pastoredsmith

          Well, I see the trolling fool strikes again. Surprised you didn’t change your name like your other atheist buddies do. You really need to learn to spell. It is “Christians,” and it makes you look completely stupid to misspell it.
          As to the worst people in the world; those who destroy the moral fabric of this society, it is those who do not believe in or acknowledge God as who He is. Your imaginary “no god” religion is a farce and you know it.
          If you hate religion, why do you LOVE and CHERISH your own atheist religion? And, it is a religion, no matter that you deny it. Atheism now has “churches,” complete with “clergy” and “worship services.” The only primitive superstitious, made up, self serving nonsense comes from atheists who hate God and hate His people. If you really want to be productive in this society, why don’t you spend your time trying to “teach” rather than “force” your “no god” viewpoint on society? Why must you turn public schools and government offices into “atheist zones?” (You call them “godless” zones; same thing). You force, manipulate, file lawsuits and other bullying tactics on society to FORCE your views on the rest of us. Then, you turn around and say Christians do it because we TEACH the Gospel.

      • Eric Marsh

        No, I’m referring to the fact that religious people have made abortion and issue. Otherwise most people wouldn’t care.

        • robertzaccour

          It’s an issue for more than just Christians.

          • Eric Marsh

            I don’t recall using the word “Christians.”

          • pastoredsmith

            You didn’t. But, that is not the issue, is it?

        • pastoredsmith

          So, you think that a preborn baby is not a human being and that it is not murder to kill him or her? The test of proof of a human being being at a certain place at a certain time, according to the laws of the land, cannot be disputed if DNA evidence is there. Even a zygote has DNA. People who “wouldn’t care” have to be atheists since atheists have no morals except those they stole from God’s Law.

          • Eric Marsh

            Sorry, but I don’t subscribe the the local superstitions.

          • pastoredsmith

            And, I thought you believe in science? It seems you only embrace scientific theory that fits your agenda. You should study human conception and the product of it more closely. And, it is your hate for God and His people that clouds your judgement. Let go of your hate for God and His people. Your hate really makes you say dumb things.

          • Eric Marsh

            Sorry, but that’s just inane.

            I understand the science. What you don’t seem to understand is that science gives us facts but not a philosophical framework to interpret those facts.

          • pastoredsmith

            Philosophy is no more in and of itself than your “human reasoning.” Only God provides the truth. You provide delusional misinformation that is man made and very undependable. Your opinion is no more valuable than mine, but God’s Word is immutable. But, you know that. Your anger prevents you from seeing the truth. Let go of your hate and accept Christ today. You will be the better for it.

          • Eric Marsh

            Meh… your magical thinking is really lame. It’s no substitute for thoughtful reasoning. Go ahead, spend your life blundering around in ignorance.

          • sjoe

            Do you know how abortion is performed?

          • Eric Marsh

            Yes, a variety of different ways under different circumstances.

          • sjoe

            would you be okay if one of them was performed on a grown up adult, if that adult is considered inconvenient?

          • Eric Marsh

            No, not at all. But it’s apples and oranges. In one case we are talking about a conscious, sentient being, in the other some tissue that has not formed the necessary hardware for to be aware.

            What particularly irritates me about the anti-choice side is that they are willing to throw women under the bus in favor of blobs of tissue. Women are sentient beings. Why? Because of a lot of garbage that’s most likely just plain wrong – magical beliefs in gods, souls and so forth. But you religious folk are perfectly happy to force your beliefs on others because you think you’re right.

            Of course when people stand up and say enough all you do is whine and claim that your rights are under attack. It’s all just so lame.

          • sjoe

            Aren’t you guys searching for life in Mars? And by life, aren’t you guys looking for anything that includes just a bacteria or a blob of slime?? And your ignorance is shown when you say its just a tissue that you are destroying through abortion. Forget that the fetus has a soul for time being. Lets just take away the religious stuff out of this equation for time being. Lets assume no one has a soul. Do some research. Study what abortion really means. Talk to an unbiased doctor who would speak the truth. Ask if the fetus has pain when the procedure is performed. Also look at the link I sent… Look at the graphic details and then without lying tell me, does it look right? If you say it looks right, then there is nothing really there to discuss. If it looks right to you, then there’s something seriously wrong with humans for turning a blind eye to the atrocity carried out towards these little children. You worry about the female body but what about the child’s body that’s being broken, sucked out, poked into, cut into pieces? Who will speak out for them? Would you be okay if someone did this to a puppy? First look at the hard evidence then come back and support abortion.

          • sjoe

            What particularly irritates me is that people like you always value something exclusively. In your mind, a person cannot value both – the mother and the child. For some twisted reason, you believe that if someone valued the fetus, they automatically dont value the mother and “throw her under the bus”. What kind of logic is that? To me and I believe for most of the pro-choice people both lives are valuable. If the mother is incapable of taking care of the child, then there are so many people willing to adopt. I personally know so many families who have adopted children. The children are perfectly happy! And the mother, yes she has her life, and her choices without the child in the picture. How is the unloving? How is that bad? Isn’t abortion merely convenience? I agree adoption isn’t and easy process so is abortion the answer? Take the easy way out and take the life of a child along with it?

          • sjoe

            according to dictionary a sentient being is someone who can question his existence. So by your philosophy, any person unable to do that is okay to be “aborted”?

          • Eric Marsh

            I’m fine with letting brain dead bodies or those in permanent comas die. But since they are no longer depending on a woman’s body for life support it’s an apples and oranges question anyway.

            Well, enough of this time wasting. Good luck trashing women’s lives.

          • sjoe

            Well its not apples and oranges and embryos are not brain dead. If you thought embroyos were brainless or brain dead, then that means you really do not know what you are talking about. Btw, You conveniently avoided the many circumstances that abortion is done under. There are some who actually specilize in late term abortion too and actually take pride in doing it. When you support abortion you are supporting abortion in all and every form and that my friend is literally trashing children’s life. Whether or not you like you it, you are supporting murder and there is nothing to be proud about doing that. And by the way, who are you to let brain dead people die? How is that trampling the right of a living person okay? Yeah, I am done talking too as there is no point in talking when you want to be blind to the cruelty carried out against children.

          • sjoe

            Did you know about these procedures? Beware: Graphic details found in this link

            http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/05/07/this-is-my-positive-abortion-story/

          • Eric Marsh

            I’m not interested in your propaganda. It’s for the weak minded.

          • sjoe

            That shows you are unwilling to look for the truth… alright, if you really have the courage to face the truth, talk to an unbiased doctor, do some real research on this subject. Then come back and discuss on abortion. Without knowing the truth, it is kind of wrong to participate in a discussion. And before you tell me to find the truth, I did… I have even spoken to docs and nurses to understand the truth.

          • sjoe

            Do you know when the fetus has a heart beat?

          • sjoe

            so you mean to say that although science gives us the fact that abortion can cause pain to the fetus while employing one or more techniques to remove/destroy, you want to choose a philosophy that ignores the real pain behind it all?

          • Eric Marsh

            I don’t even think you have a clue about what you’re talking about. Pain in early term fetuses is something spun up by anti-choice zealots and perpetuated by rightwing politicians in spite of the fact that the scientific consensus says that it just ain’t so.

          • sjoe

            I believe you have no clue of what you are talking about. When according to you does the fetus begin looking like a human? When does the fetus start having a heart beat? Till when is abortion allowed. Why doesn’t the planned parenthood facility allow for ultra sound before an abortion? And by the way, I am fascinated by how you guys can quickly switch between early term and late term abortion when its convenient, while all the while its simply pro-choice and abortion we are talking about.

          • Guest

            And again, if pain is the only standard for deciding whether a fetus can be destroyed or not, is it then okay for an adult to be killed in a pain free way?

      • Voca Veritas

        You do know the Nazis were Christians, right? Catholics and Lutherans, mostly, but Christians all.

        • jmichael39

          Yeah, right….always good to read a couple of lines from a Wikipedia post and then throw it out there as the cold hard truth. The real truth being that most of those supposed Christians you refer to were members of the Positive Christianity sect that was considered by most Christians to be apostate. Which, of course, is why people like Dietrich Bonhoffer, who openly opposed the Nazis FROM THE PULPIT, was imprisoned and executed for his stand against the Nazis. Goodness, you atheists will believe any BS and you mock Christians for believing in things that are unsubstantiated..

        • robertzaccour

          A Christian is a follower of Christ, so no, Nazis’ were not Christians.

        • James Grimes

          The Nazis disavowed Christianity. You should have known that.

          • pastoredsmith

            Hitler was rumored to be a homosexual. Definitely not Christian.

        • pastoredsmith

          No, they weren’t. A lot of people name themselves “Christian” who never accept Christ nor do they follow His teachings. No true Christian could ever be part of genocide. It is you who pass judgement by lumping together anyone who names themselves “Christian” without actually being one. But, you know that and just wish to demonstrate your superior “intellect.” Massive fail. The human intellect dies next to the truth. Let go of your hate! You will then see more clearly how to view the world.

      • pastoredsmith

        Hitler’s genocide was a religious issue, not a Christian issue. Careful to recognize that Christianity is not just another “religion” like Buddhism, Islam, etc. Christ is the ONLY risen Savior.

  • pastoredsmith

    No surprises here. Atheists have no reason to be moral since all morality comes from God. Atheists merely attempt to copy God’s law in their twisted definition of “morality.” Since atheists reject God, claiming that mankind was not Created; rather he just magically appeared after a big bang that just “happened” for no explainable reason, they can only copy from Christianity in order to claim that murder is wrong or that it is wrong to tell a lie. If it were true that there is no God as the atheists claim, there is no reason to be moral. But, since God is real and is exactly who He says He is, there is every reason for morality, cultural laws and civilization. Atheists have no hope for the future beyond the grave, so why shouldn’t mankind live it up as he sees fit in his own eyes? After all, according to the hopelessness of atheist “doctrine,” we “only go round once, so grab all the gusto you can” as the old commercial once said. Atheism = abortion = lawlessness.

    • Feeling Fabulous

      Amen, well said!!

    • Jefferson_Lebowski

      Garbage – you literally have no idea what Atheism is.

      I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

      • pastoredsmith

        You can contend or dismiss anything you wish. Welcome to the USA. As to your contention that I don’t know anything about atheism, do you deny that the basic tenant of that “church” is the belief that there is no God? Do you deny that your “church” is now established in the USA and that it comes complete with “clergy” and a tax deduction? Go ahead and dismiss God. He is not “my” God, He is THE one and only God who created the universe, and the original from which all false religions (including atheism) attempts to counterfeit.

        • Voca Veritas

          Atheism is a “church” like bald is a hair style.
          If you really believe your God is in fact the “real” God, aren’t you worried he/she/it might take seriously that commandment about “bearing false withness”? Or, does God give a pass when lying for the cause?

          • pastoredsmith

            You are either completely ignorant of what atheism is or a complete liar. You tell me which. Here is the proof that atheism is now a “church.” http://news.yahoo.com/atheist-mega-churches-root-across-us-world-214619648.html

          • Voca Veritas

            Thank you for correctly using quotes around the word “church”. If your idea is that every social gathering is a “church”, then more people will be “worshiping” at the “church” of Elks Lodge or American Legion. As I’m neither ignorant of atheism nor a liar, I think we know your position on “bearing false witness”.

          • pastoredsmith

            You know nothing when it comes to me. I use quotes around the word “church” because it has such a broad meaning these days. It takes a religious practice, clergy and several other things to meet IRS rules to be considered a “church.” Yet, atheists meet the criteria and you still ignorantly claim that “atheism is not a religion?” Let go of your hate. Your ears are glowing red.

          • StephenClamage

            The article you refer to discusses the Sunday Assembly. It is a social gathering started by two atheists who liked the fellowship of church, but didn’t want the religion that goes with church. Everyone is is welcome at an Assembly. You don’t have to drop your religion, but you won’t find any religious references there.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, I referred to the Yahoo article that talked about “mega-atheist churches.” Big difference. The atheist “church” is considered a church because they espouse “religious doctrines” (IRS), have a “clergy” (IRS), and they have regular assemblies. You simply cannot call any assembly a “church.” It has to meet IRS rules to get the tax exemption.

          • Brenda Golden

            Check out the Supreme Court ruling that states athesim is a religion.

          • Voca Veritas

            Actually, the Supreme Court ruled atheism is entitled to the same tax exemption status as religious organizations. The correct ruling would have been that religious organizations are not entitled to tax exempt status, but a court made up of Catholics (and a few Jews) wasn’t quite willing to abandon their religious prejudices in order to follow the Constitution.

          • pastoredsmith

            I missed this comment about SCOTUS ruling atheism being entitled to the same tax exemption as churches. That is correct. Atheism is now a bona fide religion in America; right up there with the Jedi Religion. May the Farce be with you. Oh, there were many Protestants on the high court as well. You need to reread American History. Then, let go of your hate. It only makes you sound like a bully.

          • Voca Veritas

            There may have been protestant justices in the past, but the current make up of the court is 6 Catholics and 3 Jews. Don’t worry about “bearing false witness”, I’ll put in a good word for you with the big guy when you arrive in Hell.
            Remember that “hate the sin, love the sinner”? Well, I don’t hate you, only your ignorance. At least it doesn’t make you sound like a bully, only foolish.
            BTW, if you can produce a Supreme Court opinion which says “atheism is a religion”, I’ll donate $1,000 to whatever “church” you attend.

          • pastoredsmith

            I am very aware of who is there now, and I am very displeased with them. However, my reasons are very unlike yours. It has nothing to do with the faith they express. It has to do with the ungodly rulings they have made in recent days. And, you can rest assured, I don’t hate you either. I do hate your insults that you cannot seem to do without, but I suppose that just goes to prove my point that you are carrying a lot of anger and hate towards God and His people. As soon as you realize that it is not “ignorance” to have faith in God, you will see a very different way of thinking that will remove the need to bully others and attack in ways that you obviously know nothing about. I hope you do mention me to God. He will then bring it to your attention that you heard the truth about Him and continued to reject it. I am at peace with God and my faith in Him. But, you are angry. BTW. SCOTUS does not determine who is a religion and who is not….generally. That is usually determined by another branch of the Federal Government. You’ve likely heard of them. They are called the IRS. And, they say that atheist churches are indeed “churches.” Would you like to know where to send that donation? I’ll provide you with the address. Let go of your hate. You will live a better life…a life of peace that only God can give.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Ignorance – just plain ignorance.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          NO – a complete fraudulent statement. Atheists are free to believe whatever they want. All they say is that YOU have failed to produce the evidence for your particular God.

          Produce the evidence and end the debate.

          Simple really.

          • pastoredsmith

            Since when is “nothing” as the “creator” of everything “simple?” Only an airhead would believe such lies and deception! Atheists have a religion. The IRS agrees, and grants your “churches” a tax exemption. Get over it. You are part of a religion, and like you claim in our society, there is no room for religion. Including atheism. Evidence you want? Explain the origin of the universe. Not in “human theories,” but in fact. Explain how morals ever got here, and why human beings are not exactly like the animals in the animal kingdom if God didn’t create us to be a little higher on the food chain? Let go of your hate. Let God bring you peace.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Atheism is not a religion and you are bearing “false witness”….that is a “sin” in your religion.

          • pastoredsmith

            Atheism is a false religion who has churches, clergy and a tax exemption. And, if you must press the “false witness” accusation, you have nothing to press with. Lying is a sin, and you seem to be an expert at it. But, I suppose it is OK to lie if you’re an atheist. You have no God to answer to. At least that is what you think. Let go of your hate! It is making you boil over!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I don’t hate God because I see no evidence for him. I don’t hate religion per se’ — but I do hate what it does to people like you.

          • pastoredsmith

            Since you don’t know me, you are judging me. You conclude that because I love God and believe in His Word that I have had something really bad done to me? You have no idea of which you speak of. Don’t believe me? OK, I dare you. Try Christ. I mean sincerely. Not angrily. Sincerely. Ask Him to forgive you of your sins and to come into your heart. If you want to experience the peace and Joy that lives inside me, I dare you to try it. If you don’t hate God, you will take my dare. If you hate God, I will await your next slur against me. That’s all you have left as an atheist. Become an ex-atheist and give God the glory….then watch Him as He brings you peace that passes understanding. Let go of your hate!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I have no hate to let go of. Why don’t you study Buddhist Philosophy so you would at least have a basic understanding of where I’m coming from. To get a religious fanatic to understand Atheism is probably an impossibility. Buddhism is as close to a secular philosophy of life as any out there – perhaps a competing philosophy would help you to understand.

            I am a happy – centered person in a country run by religious fanatics is all.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            I love the idea of calling Atheism a religion, that way right next to every publicly displayed Christian religious artifact can be an Atheist artifact. I know the typical charade of “nothing” is already displayed is the Christian tirade against Atheism, and though amusing, when the religion of Atheism truly wants their artifacts placed alongside Christian ones, I can only trust that you will be the first to defend their right to Freedom of Religion as you want your right to Freedom of Religion.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            “Since when is ‘nothing’ as the ‘creator’ of everything ‘simple?'”
            Religious people often presume that since their religion posits a creation of the Universe that Atheism also posits a creation typically from “nothing”, however, this could not be more wrong. Although most atheist’s utilize the current scientific understanding of how the Universe came to be (current scientific knowledge does not posit that the Universe came from “nothing” an obvious misunderstanding by persons whom have no scientific understanding). Atheism itself only posits that there is no God and is silent on how the Universe came to be.

        • Stephen_Phelan

          Please, would everyone look up the difference between ‘tenet’ and ‘tenant’? It makes us sound like idiots. Just point out to Mr. Lebowski that he can’t even deny his religiosity without capitalizing his term for his worldview. That’s what all religions do, of course.

      • Stephen_Phelan

        You literally have no idea what the word ‘literally’ means, so be careful with the condescension. You also don’t seem to know what the word ‘atheist’ means, pace Dawkins, who thought the word just sounded cooler than the more precise (to his view) agnostic. Pathetic cheerleading proselytism that thinks it has cornered the market on rationality. boring. Read something besides your heroes and then give us a call.

    • SashaC

      So you’re saying that you wouldn’t know that murder and lying are wrong, if “god” didn’t tell you they were? If your religion is the only thing keeping you from being a sociopath, you have some serious issues and I suggest you seek counseling immediately.

      • pastoredsmith

        That is precisely what I am saying, Sasha. If everything came from nothing and we will just end our existence when we die; specifically, if there is no God as atheism touts, then there are no morals. Every moral in the universe came from God. They were copied by society, at least in part, some of them twisted or perverted to become something else like a poor counterfeit. And, it is God’s Law that prevents all of us from becoming sociopaths, or worse. If there is no God, then there are no morals.

        • Voca Veritas

          If your supposition were true, you wouldn’t be here to argue it. Mankind existed for millennia before the God of Abraham was invented. Had they all been sociopaths, mankind would have died out before religion could be invented.

          • SashaC

            Exactly. Thank you.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, the shoe is on the wrong foot. You wouldn’t be here arguing with Christians who know the truth when your reasoning has failed to produce real answers. If you have morals, then where did they come from? You invented them? Don’t make me laugh.

        • SashaC

          Your “logic” is truly disturbing.

          Atheists are very underrepresented in prison, making up far less than 1% of the prison population, with recent studies claiming as little as 0.07%. We seem to better than most religious people, at telling the difference between right and wrong.

          • pastoredsmith

            Atheists also have a very high suicide rate. Recent studies prove that atheists are among the most violent in society. Your information is flawed. Christians find peace when they truly find God. Perhaps you speak of those who are Christian in name only. I’m sure you know what I mean. Most atheists are Christians who had a bad experience in a church because a human being did them dirty. Let go of your anger. Let go of your hate. Only in loving the true God of the Universe can you find true peace.

          • SashaC

            Cite your source that atheists are amongst the most violent in society. Do you think there is no correlation between violence and ending up in prison?

        • Giraffe-Junk

          Except that Atheism doesn’t state that everything came from nothing. In-fact Atheism makes no claim to where the Universe came from, it is just a statement that there is no God. I do actually know where the Universe came from and am willing to share it with you. The answer that you think Atheism makes (nothing) and the answer you think religion makes (God) are both incorrect. The answer is real simple. The answer to how did the Universe come to be is, “No one knows”.

          As no one knows how the Universe came to be we can now look at your ideologies of how the Universe came to be and see if it is, in-fact, true. First is this God that you are referring to the Christian God? If it is not the Christian God, then please refer me to this other God’s Book so that I can review it.

          If it is the Christian God, then let’s review it. Was the Universe created in 6 days? No. Was it 6,000ish years? No. Is the moon a little light? No, it is a reflector. Maybe theses are parables that I just do not understand. Let’s take a look at this God’s moral character. Is it moral to allow a rapist to marry his victim if he pays the father of the victim a small fine? No. Is it moral to kill every living being (save eight), in the largest genocide on Earth? No. You might try to excuse those (and many more) things away because Jesus came to Earth, but even Jesus would disagree with you when He stated in Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

          So the moral values that you perceive that humans MUST derive from a God are so immoral that I as a human being could never follow them. I cannot in good conscience stone a woman to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night. I cannot call myself moral and purchase another human being, Leviticus 25:44, “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids”
          This God is not an upright moral being that humans should look upon for their moral values, in-fact, quite the opposite. Do you know where true moral values come from? From society, upbringing and empathy.
          If you do not have morals, you do not lack religion, you lack empathy.

      • Theresa Easley

        I suggest you seek God immediately. I will pray for you.

        • SashaC

          Do I cover my eyes and count to 10 first? Just want to be sure I’m doing this right…

          • pastoredsmith

            No, you are not doing it right. No amount of sarcasm will help you. Only a sincere heart that understands the truth instead of trying to cloud it up with man-made reason that falters and fails.

          • SashaC

            I’m quite certain that you aren’t qualified to comment on reason.

          • pastoredsmith

            On your reason? You are right. I don’t know you and won’t pretend to do so. On reason and “free thought” in general? yes, I am very qualified to say that “free thinkers” and “human reasoning?” Another story. I do know that all man made reasoning is only as good as the human being doing the reasoning, and no human being is able to reason away the truth. You cannot disbelieve God and “prove” He doesn’t exist. You have given me no reason to believe that you are qualified to comment on the existence of God. Your hate for Him shows in your sarcasm. Let go of your hate while you still can. you will be much happier in His truth than embedded in your lies of human reasoning.

          • SashaC

            I don’t need to prove god doesn’t exist. No one can prove that anything doesn’t exist. The onus is on you, since you make the claim. Unless you can prove that god exists, you have only your opinion, not the truth.

          • pastoredsmith

            The point I make will come to its fullness on your death bed when you finally acknowledge Him. And, I pray you do so before then. No, it’s not “on me” to prove God exists. His Creation and His miracles are enough for me. No opinion here, just truth. It is your own human reasoning that eliminates the existence of God, but your human reasoning is flawed. You know down in your heart that He exists and that you are really angry with Him. Let go of your hate. The truth will always rise to the top.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            Actually, I disagree with @SashaC below. I can prove that God doesn’t exist. I’ve read the Bible and know for a fact that Unicorns don’t exist (they are in the Bible). I know for a fact that a WOODEN ship the size of Noah’s (When measured using the Ancient Egyptian Cubit) can not float. I know for a fact that the moon is not a “little light”, but a reflector. I know for a fact that donkeys can not talk. I know for a fact that a human could not be raised from the dead 2,000 years ago. I know that an omnipotent God would also know these facts as well and would make sure that humans interpreting His stories for future generations would not write such a ridiculous and childish stories to tell how He is the Creator of the Universe and Omnipotent and needing of worship. So, in-fact the Bible itself proves, without a doubt, that this God doesn’t exist.

      • Stephen_Phelan

        Hi. Where is the law for atheists that says murder and lying are wrong? Where is the logical proof? Or the empirical evidence? Or did you just come up with that moralism on your own? And if the latter, who cares what your personal opinion is? Or is it up to a majority vote? And if the latter, is the convicted murdered wrong or merely a visionary.

        You atheists refuse to do the research on the history of your own ideas, thinking you’re a new genius somehow stumbling on the truth from your own power. Fools. Start with nietzsche’s beyond good and evil and come back and tell us that you really came up with your morality on your own. Or did you need someone else to tell you what good and bad is?

        • Verimius

          The history of Christianity is covered in blood. At what point did Christian morality start working?

        • SashaC

          Common sense, social awareness, and empathy is how I know murder is wrong. My morals are not forced, based on the threat of punishment or promise of reward.

          Since your god is supposedly the one true god and morality cannot exist without him, explain to me why societies that predate Christianity or follow other religions, existed/exist without being completely chaotic and lawless. Where did their morality originate?

          • Stephen_Phelan

            First, I did not say that morality cannot exist without God. Quite the contrary – people will always have moral systems, and they always come from somewhere beyond their current common sense, social awareness and empathy. These are often chaotic, but they can be quite internally “rational.” (eg. sharia law, in which victims of rape are charged as criminals, which fits the sick logic of their law.)

            But who are you to judge? Who are you to say that you are more empathetic than a murderer, or have more common sense or social awareness? All these do is reinforce that your morality is your own opinion, which is thus irrelevant to anyone else. A murderer may be a criminal to you and me, but a hero and visionary to someone else who also has a certain kind of empathy and social awareness. To each his own, right?

            What I’m saying is that the moral law that we each hold as individuals is either purely selfish, and thus merely arbitrary and not a law at all (it’s just feelings and preferences, and barely even morality at that point), or comes from somewhere beyond us, and thus finds us beholden to it. Many atheists arrive at this basic point after some study, but many of you don’t. So where did this law come from? For most of us, it came from the Judeo Christian roots of Western society (which Nietzsche, Jefferson, and other thoughtful deists and atheists admit). Now that we’ve abandoned these roots, we still want to pretend that there is some moral code beyond ourselves that we can convince others is the right way to go. Yet more and more it reveals itself as arbitrary, capricious, amoral. So now it’s about the Will to Power.

            Point being, you hold as your own moral law an echo of the tradition you reject, and you seem to think this gives you the right to judge others on a moral basis (eg the abuses of Christianity), which you find wanting. At some point the hypocrisy must leap out at you. You reject my tradition, ok. I reject yours. Now what, do we vote?

        • Giraffe-Junk

          If you lack morals, you do not lack religion, you lack empathy.

          P.S. Already studied Nietzsche.

    • Mike Hegyi

      Look up what atheism actually is. It is the rejection of the god claims others make. It is not a positive claim of “no god”. Since we’re rejecting your god claims as not meeting the burden of proof, we are also rejecting your doctrine. That doesn’t mean we’re replacing your doctrine with our own. You can survive without a doctrine. God claim rejection due to lack of independently verifiable evidence. That is atheism, and nothing else.

      • Theresa Easley

        Don’t lie. You guys are always saying there is no God.

        • Karl Ford

          Only because you say there is! All we’re doing is responding to your assertion. Try learning the rules of logic and critical reasoning. But watch out, you could become an atheist if you do.

          • pastoredsmith

            Logic and critical reasoning are man-made and only as effective as the imperfect man who dreamed them up. No chance of becoming an atheist once you know who God is. And, admit it. You really believe in Him down in your heart, don’t you. Give up your angry charade and come to Christ. Only there will you find peace.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Theology is ignorance with wings.

          • pastoredsmith

            False Theology is ignorance with wings. Atheism is the worst set of ideologically twisted ignorance on planet earth.

          • Karl Ford

            The only anger I’m reading on here is yours. You come across as desperate and frightened, as if maybe you don’t completely believe what you’re proclaiming. As for logic and critical reasoning being “man-made,” now I’ve heard everything! You wouldn’t know how to get out of bed in the morning or know how to tie your shoes without them. But then, maybe you don’t know how to tie your shoes!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Any person who calls themselves a “Pastor” or any other religious “authority” is to be immediately distrusted due to their concrete desire to “lord” over their fellow human beings. It makes them no better than a slaver.

            But at least a slaver could point to the plantation as evidence for their need to have slaves.

          • prinefan

            There is no more useless group of charlatans than religious leaders.

          • pastoredsmith

            More personal attacks. If you have nothing intelligent to say, attack the messenger. It’s already happening from your atheist buddies on this thread. You have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to “lord” over fellow human beings. God sets man free. Freedom to live and love with all our heart. Freedom to know that we have God at our side. It is lies that enslave. Human logic and man-made theories enslave because they are all flawed and imperfect. You cannot compete and win against the God who created you. Let go of your hatred. Let God break the shackles of sin that bind you to a life of hopelessness.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Religion enslaves the mind. My parents created me. You have no evidence for your claims.

          • pastoredsmith

            Correct. Religion enslaves the mind. It is Christianity that frees the mind and the soul!
            As to your claim that your parents created you? That is totally preposterous. Who created them? Who created their parents? Who created the first human being? Who created the matter that the first human being came from? Evidence? Really? Sir, it is you who have no evidence. Only repeated vein babblings.
            Let go of your hate. It only makes you look stupid.

          • KenS

            Pastors do not lord over their fellow human beings. They are fellow servants of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! By the way, Ed, Happy Pastor Appreciation Month to ya.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Pastors are modern day snake oil salesmen catering to peoples desire to know what happens to us when we die.

          • prinefan

            Religious “leaders”, hucksters and charlatans, are the worst form of humanity. As useless as burnt mule dung. Parasites on humanity.

          • pastoredsmith

            I am not at all angry. I am not all “desperate and frightened,” especially of you. The only thing you feel from me is an honest desire to help you to realize that you have hell in your future by rejecting God, and that you are hurting many innocent people along the way. You can attack me all you wish, but it is you who is angry, desperate and frightened. You have nothing else to say, so you begin to attack the messenger. I see it in atheists all the time. Oh, if your logic and reasoning is not “man-made,” where did you get it? From God, maybe? No, He doesn’t think the way you do. You make it up as you go along. Let go of your hate. You cannot defeat the truth.

          • prinefan

            gods are man made. You sound like a typical brainwashed idiot, with a mind terrified, enslaved and controlled by the scam of gods and religions. We are not going to continue to let nuts like you and your crazy religious nonsense ruin our world like you have done all thru history.

          • KenS

            And what do you think you are going to do, abolish the first amendment?

          • prinefan

            From a legal perspective all you have to worry about is how we can use the courts against you. When it’s time for Khriztians to put their buy bulls down and start killing non-believers like they have done all thru history( or anyone they did not like), I will address that personally, and I hope they start with me.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            The First Amendment doesn’t have to abolished. Many religious people state that Atheism is a religion. I like that idea, that way whenever in a public place your religion gets airtime, so does mine. A contrasting opinion in the age of Google is enough to make each successive generation rid themselves of God.

      • pastoredsmith

        I already looked it up. May I suggest you actually research what your atheist buddies are claiming? Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. You reject God because you hate Him. You cannot deny His existence; although you attempt to do so with your lame man-made theories that won’t hold water and must be propped up by “scientists” who falsify reports and test results to obtain a certain result. You do have your own doctrine. Your doctrine is “there is no God.” That is a doctrine; just the same as “Jehovah God is the Only God.” That is atheism, plus a lot more. Bullying, the FFRF, the attempts to silence Christianity and a lost longer than I have room to type here. Your fake claims that atheism is not a religion are just that. Fake. Hot air.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike…

          • pastoredsmith

            Come back when you have something intelligent to say.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Adhominim.

            I know of no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too desirous of evidence in support of their core beliefs.

          • pastoredsmith

            True. But, there are plenty of societies in human history that fell apart because they relied on their own human reasoning and made the turn in a bad direction. Any time that human logic rules a society, it is only a matter of time before that society falls.

          • prinefan

            That’s life. Depending on imaginary beings is like praying to them too, absolutely worthless.

        • Mike Hegyi

          Wow. Lots of claims there building your strawman with nothing backing you up. If that is what you think atheism is, then you’re just flat out wrong. Again, research your topic before you make wild and baseless claims.

          • pastoredsmith

            The more you speak, the more you show your ignorance. You claim to be part of something you know nothing about.

  • plankbob

    Hilarious “investigative” reporting. It’s hardly news or anything that FFRF has ever tried to hide. Its website has various stories on the connection. Did you mean this abortion industry?

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/planned-parenthood-opens-8-billion-abortionplex,20476/

  • Karl Ford

    So-called “Christian” morality has only been around for about seven thousand years. Humans have been living in communities for over 100,000 years. How do you suppose they did that without rules, or put another way, morals? If anything, religion adopted morality from already established mores.

    • pastoredsmith

      So, you were here 100,000 years ago? And, how did you come up with that number as the number of years human beings have been living in communities? Oh, I suppose your “logic” and human reasoning brought you to that false conclusion? No, morality started with God. He Created mankind perfect; man screwed it up. It’s called “sin.” Only Christ can forgive it. Your logic and human reasoning falter and fail. Let go of your hate.

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        Why is always the religious fanatics that suffer from a lack of real education?

        Answer: Religion requires us to not think for ourselves and to question it’s numerous supernatural claims on no evidence.

        Had religion asked of us to think for ourselves it would have died out long ago…..

        • pastoredsmith

          Backwards and flawed as usual. Christians are sometimes fanatical because we found the truth; we found true peace that passes understanding. Real education? It begins in the Bible and ends there as well. And, we study many other things as well. I, for example, am very interested in science. I study many things about our universe and other things. We are the people who think for ourselves. You are the people who are trapped in your own logic and lies. It takes more faith to believe that the universe “just happened” than to understand the truth that God Created it. Religion doesn’t die because it continues to be true, unlike atheism that will ultimately be proven to be the most foolish of all false religions of the world.

      • prinefan

        Every society and civilization creates their gods in the mirror image of the people who created them. Their gods like and dislike the same things that the people who created the gods do, ever notice that? Science has advanced humanity more in 50 years than religion ever did in thousands of years. gods and religions are silly nonsense. They’re ridiculous too.

        • pastoredsmith

          Only societies and civilizations that worship false gods create their own god. The Creator of the Universe and His only Son, Jesus Christ transcend culture and societies. Its truth transcends your flawed human logic that leads you to destruction of yourself and anyone who will believe your lies. It causes atheists to become bullies. To form organizations like the “Freedom From Religion Foundation” that sues anyone that dares stick their head up in public and declare that they live by the faith they possess. Your hatred of God grows by the day. Go ahead and deny it. But, you do hate God. Let go of your hate. It only makes you look like a bully.

          • prinefan

            People and their created myths of gods that gave birth to the scam of religions are being exposed, discredited , debunked, dismissed and discarded. All religions have ever done is bully, demean and degrade others, torture and execute them for heresy and blasphemy. You are getting just what you have given and I mean to see you get what you deserve for all the hurt religion has cause. You have sown the wind and now you will reap the whorl wind, and it’s way, way past due.

          • pastoredsmith

            When you speak of false religions such as atheism, I agree with you. But, Christianity is the truth. All other religions, including the religion of atheism counterfeit Christianity. Atheism has no morals apart from God. Yes, religions bully, demean and degrade others. And, some torture and execute them for heresy and blasphemy. Islam is a good example of that. They stone atheists and adulterers. If you want hatred, there is where to look. Christ sets those who accept Him as Savior free from bondage. Free to love and live in freedom in Christ. Peace that passes understanding. Let go of your hate for Christians and for God. You can’t win against the truth.

      • Karl Ford

        Ever hear of archeology? From the intelligence of your posts, I would say no.

        • prinefan

          Brain on religion. No questions. Waste of time.:-(

        • pastoredsmith

          Certainly, I studied archaeology in college. And, I thank you for your compliment about my intelligence. I still urge you to let go of your hate. It doesn’t strengthen your human logic and reasoning.

          • Karl Ford

            Now who’s lying? If you studied archeology in college, you wasted your money because you didn’t get anything out of it. And you don’t even know an insult when you hear one. You’re a waste of time and energy and sound like a broken record with your passive/aggressive argumentation. Please, get help, there may still be time to save you as a thinking human being.

          • pastoredsmith

            It is not me who is lying, for I am not wallowing in deceit and vein lies of man. Archaeology proves God is exactly who He says He is, and that not all men believed in Him, as with you today. Go ahead and attack me. Your hatred for Christ and His People shines brightly. Let go of your hate. You can’t win against the truth of Christ.

          • Karl Ford

            Blah, blah, blah, blah! Is that all you can do is mouth dogma over and over? Answer one question, truthfully. How old is the Earth? Billions of years, or only thousands of years?

          • KenS

            about 6000 years old!

          • pastoredsmith

            I wasn’t here. Were you? God knows the answer. That is all I need. Your human logic can’t answer that and God doesn’t provide exact information in His Word. Some believe thousands. I like that, but can’t prove it so I leave it in God’s Hands. I’m more interested in the future than the past. Heaven is in mine. How about you? Hell is in yours if you continue to say, “there is no god.” Let go of your hate. You can’t win against Christ.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Might as well just open your skull and throw your brain on the dirt.

          • Karl Ford

            Wow, are you a real human being or just a robot!? If god was real, he must be embarrassed by you. ” God knows the answer. That is all I need.” I really feel sorry for you. Whoever did this to you should be brought up on charges. Oh well, I know those like you always need to have the last say in order to make themselves feel vindicated. So, go ahead. I won’t respond to whatever ridiculous thing you want to say. It’ll probably just be more of what you have already said because you really don’t know what else to think.

          • KenS

            If you study the genealogies that the bible gives us, you will see that the earth about 6000 years old.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Oh brother…. -see what we are reduced to in the 21st Century?

  • Jefferson_Lebowski

    Religion is actually worse than a disease because people knowingly spread these lies to their children, their family members, and to society in general (doing tremendous psychological damage to fellow human beings in the process).

    Knowingly spreading filth, ignorance, disease and lies should be a crime against humanity.

    • pastoredsmith

      Well, you got something partially right. Add the word “False” to “Religion is actually worse than a disease because people knowingly spread these lies to their children, their family members, and to society in general (doing tremendous psychological damage to fellow human beings in the process)…” and I’ll agree with that statement. False religions, such as atheism, are knowingly spreading filth, ignorance, disease and lies…..and should be a crime against humanity. Give up your hatred. Only Christ can bring you peace.

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        To terrify children with the image of hell, to consider women an inferior creation—is that good for the world?

        • pastoredsmith

          No, to warn children of a horrible place that they have the opportunity of avoiding. Nobody need go to Hell if they believe on and accept Christ as Savior. Including you, atheist. As to women, we treat our women with dignity because we understand that God created woman from a rib….not from the top of our head to rule over us nor from the sole of our feet so as to be trampled on. Atheists have nothing to stand on except their own flawed human logic that varies greatly from atheist to atheist. As mixed up as it comes. Let go of your hate!

          • prinefan

            The Khriztian buy bull has passages about killing people and mistreating women just like the Quran. I heard some being read and thought it was the Quran until he said they came from the Khriztian buy bull. It’s a video posted by Cenk Urgur. All religions and gods are pure chicken poop. That don’t make chicken soup. You don’t really think we will stand idly by and let people like you, your imaginary gods and your screw ball, crackpot religions keep ruining our world, do you? We won’t put up with it any more. Spread the word to your fellow lunatics. Tell your fellow Khriztians to stop sending their vulgar, obscene, death threats and hate mail to the FFRF and stop their little maggot Khriztian monkeys at school from bullying Atheists children.

          • pastoredsmith

            More insults. You wear your hatred on your shirt sleeve for all to see. A chip on your shoulder. This level of anger must be difficult for anyone around you to put up with. You call names, you insult, you pass judgement where none is needed. Your human logic says that anyone who disagrees with your false religion is a hater. You misinterpret the Scriptures and claim to be an expert, yet you know nothing. I say again. Let go of your hate. It won’t help you find any truth. Only more lies.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Religion is a hereditary disease that is passed from generation to generation.

      • prinefan

        Everything about religions, gods is false. Not believing in gods people have created to suit themselves is not a religion, that is A-theist. No one is born believing in made up gods and if they live a normal life, they never do. The clergy especially is a class that is completely useless human beings. Worthless as burnt mule dung.

        • Jose

          you guys are partly right, but actually people are “born” with that sense for religion or a better term would be a sense of something “greater”. How do you think it all started? even the most remote, secluded, uncivilized tribes believe in some sort of “god” or religion as you call it. The issue comes in actually in our society today, where anti god assoc. are trying with all their might (hate) to remove something that has been here in humans since the begin of time. Honestly, ask yourself this, ever since all these gay movements and atheists, anti god movements have started (things against our nature) have you seen the world getting better or more corrupt with more hate and violence then ever? Just look how you’re responding, all you have is hate in your heart! and you are the one with the truth? the one that is right? If that’s what you are selling or teaching your kids no wonder many rather seek religion where there is actually a sense of morality, peace, and love. And since I know where this argument is going to lead, I’ll spare you the trouble. One huge error that you and many atheists take up is thinking that all religions are the same. There’s only One God and one truth, man has corrupted it or misunderstood it (like you) and has caused the situations you speak of so don’t even think a true follower of Christ is the same as the “useless Catholic clergy” (I’m actually with you on that one) or isis (bc I know how you guys love to pin this one on all the religions) or any other twisted corrupt denomination.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Ignorance – just plain ignorance.

          • Jose

            Ignorance or you just don’t have another “intelligent” secular reply? Haha

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Ha ha?

  • D. Morgan

    There is one God. There is one path to God, Jesus Christ his Son. There is no other salvation under Heaven, but to believe on Him who God sent as an propitiation for the sins of man. No amount of intelligence, no philosophy, no enlightenment can undo what God has done. Every man born of woman knows that God exists. All creation knows that God exists. Many will exert all kinds of energies attempting to deny and refute this, to no avail. I pray, in Jesus’ name, that those who deny Him will be led by The Spirit to the Truth. “I am the way, and the Truth, and the light” says The Lord. Glory to God the Father, and to Christ Jesus, His Son.

    • Jefferson_Lebowski

      Superstitious nonsense designed to guarantee power (and money) in few hands while feeding off the poor and ignorant.

      Religion has been a travesty to the human species.

      • pastoredsmith

        So, why are you here? If you don’t hate God, why do you fight Him so hard? Why not spend your time helping mankind if you are so moral without God? No, you are here to spout hatred. Give it up. Find Christ. Then, you will find true peace.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          I am here because it showed up on my news feed and because the propaganda is downright satirical.

          More importantly it is important to speak truth to power – and religious fanatics like you have all the power in the world.

          • pastoredsmith

            It showed up on your newsfeed because you troll sites like this hoping to pass your propaganda and misleading comments on to unsuspecting people who will believe your bullying techniques. And, your speech is just babbling. There is no power in lies and incorrect facts. Yes, Christians have power. But, not in ourselves. It is through Christ that our weakness is made strong. Let go of your hate!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            When considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one isn’t. Religion is one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.

          • pastoredsmith

            So, whose “appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments” do you base your beliefs on? Who decides what is right and wrong? Who decides that you are “OK” to believe that “there is no god?” YOU? Really? Education won’t replace truth. Science cannot disprove truth. The only standard of intellectual integrity that might be in atheism is in the flawed human reasoning of a group of people who hate God and hate His people. That is not worthy of anyone in the world putting their trust in. Let go of your hate! You cannot win against the truth of Christ!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Jesus probably wasn’t even a real historical person.

            Objection your honor. The prosecution would seek to mislead the jury by referencing someone who is not here to witness for them.

            Sustained.

          • pastoredsmith

            Overruled by God’s Truth. There is more proof that Jesus Christ was exactly who He says He was as God incarnate in the flesh than there is that most historical figures existed. Multiple thousands saw him, over 500 witnessed His ascension in to Heaven after his Resurrection, hundreds saw Him after He rose from the Dead….historians everywhere acknowledge His existence. False religions; even atheism, counterfeits parts of Christianity. He is HERE now. You could not see Him now if you tried until you release your hatred. Yes, my angry friend, He is real. And He loves you. He wants to save you from this life of hatred and anger. Let go of your hate!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Not true – there is increasing evidence that Jesus wasn’t a real person. The Bible, Josephus, Tacitus – all bad sources for proof.

            Try again.

            It’s always interesting to have a conversation with a Christian who isn’t even aware of these contradictions.

          • pastoredsmith

            You are delusional now. The Bible? Josephus? Tacitus? Not dependable? Come on. All of these, most especially the Bible are credible proof that Jesus is exactly who He said He was. It is your “logic” that disagrees.
            You have nothing to argue with except your own human logic. It fails you. Historians got it right, your “reasoning” tries to change the truth, but you can’t. And, your hate blinds you. Let go of your hate. You can’t win against the truth.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Not credible references.

            Try again…

          • pastoredsmith

            No need to try again. You haven’t refuted the references I gave. Your anger is rising again. I’m waiting for the next insult. Let go of your hate. You can’t defeat the truth no matter how you insult those who believe it.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Not credible witnesses.

          • pastoredsmith

            Prove it. Oh, yes. You can’t prove it so you just use those homemade remedies again. Logic. Free thinking. Well, they just let you down again.
            Let go of your hate. Give it up. You can’t win against the truth.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            They either were not there or they lived and died long after the supposed events happened…or they copied transcripts of “witnesses” in a time when people believed in just about anything.

            It wouldn’t be allowed as evidence in the most obscene kangaroo court let alone a modern court of law.

          • pastoredsmith

            And, I suppose you have proof that your statements are true? You have none because there is none. And, massive numbers of people don’t lie. People were not stupid. They did know what they witnessed. Sorry, it is your logic that wouldn’t be allowed in court because you just “thought” it up. Is that an example of “free thinking?” That’s no proof. It’s just your imagination. It is your hate that drives you to continue on even though you’ve lost the debate. You cannot win against the truth. Let go of your hate. Now would be a good time to accept Christ and find peace.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Do some research. I did….try Biblical Scholars and Historians.

            Start with Bart Erhman then move on to Richard Carrier.

            It’s not my job to educate you. You have to do that for yourself.

          • pastoredsmith

            I’m well educated, thank you. It is your flawed human reasoning that is on trial. You make it up as you go. You still have not discredited the reliable witnesses I cited. The Bible stands above them all. It is the bedrock. You cannot refute the Bible with people of reasoning. You have simply no idea what your’e talking about. Reasoning and free thinking simply are like elephants in a china shop. Loose and destroying everything in sight. You said you would hold me responsible….and it is your flawed reasoning that has no basis in truth that is responsible for demolishing lives. Let go of your hate. Let God educate you. He can do a much better job than I can.

          • D. Morgan

            Mr Lebowski, a question. Have you read the Bible? All of it? Or do you merely hate God and Jesus based on “your” assesment of what Christians believe? Fo an honest appraisal will require an honest study of the Scriptures. And I would wager that if you were to read the Scrptures, you will find the answers that you will never find in any of the “logical” sources you seem to rely on. God bless you.

          • prinefan

            When you say god bless you, you in essence are saying go F yourself. There is no gods to bless anyone or anything. You need to stop spreading that stupid trash.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, that is what you said, not what I said. I say, “God bless you,” and that means, “Dear God, please help that person to see the light of truth!”
            There are many false “gods” including the false god known as “godlessness.” I will always spread the truth because only the TRUTH of God will set people free. Freethinkers, human reasoning and such man-made concoctions only cause massive confusion and destroy civilizations. God will set you free. Let go of your hate.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Scriptures? Might as well read a comic book or a romance novel.

            There is nothing to be gained from the insights of bronze age, misogynistic, ignorant, superstitious men who thought the world was flat, that women should be stoned for adultery and for whom a wheel-barrow would have been the latest in emergent technology.

            But more importantly – young people (the so called “Millenials”) have just about had enough of people like you and your lies.

            Humanity is waking up and asking questions that you do not have the answer for.

          • pastoredsmith

            You show your hatred when you say things like this. You hate God and you hate His followers. That is because we have the truth that you have rejected. You know you want to be where we are! Well, I have good news for you. YOU CAN DO JUST THAT! Just let go of your hatred, ask Jesus to come into your heart and save you from your sins. Repent and ask Him to be the Lord of your life! Then, you will understand how foolish the fools really are who go about with “there is no god” on their lips. Let go of your hate. You cannot win against the truth with hatred and lies.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            If you found someone who was brainwashed and was busy doing the same to others….and that this had been going on for thousands of years…..wouldn’t you try to break the cycle?

            I would…..and do.

        • prinefan

          We are here to fight the damage imaginary gods, religions and the fruitcakes who hide behind that nonsense from damaging our world any more than they already have.

          • pastoredsmith

            1) God is not imaginary. He is real. His name is Jehovah; His one son is named Jesus Christ. 2) False religions exist and are flourishing. Atheism, for example. The human reasoning and flawed logic of atheists damage an otherwise healthy society and replace true hope with hopelessness. 3) “Fruitcakes” don’t make Christianity false. It makes their belief in what Christianity is all about false. 4) Christianity is not any religion to be lumped in with all the other world religions. All other major religions copy and / or counterfeit Christianity, including atheism. You stole the idea of morals from Christianity, among other things.

          • prinefan

            gods are imaginary and created by primitive, superstitious savages who were crawling towards the light wondering where the sun went at nite. Khriztian morals are as phony as made up gods. It’s bloody, hateful history is well documented. It’s as stupid and ridiculous as all other religions.

          • pastoredsmith

            “gods are imaginary…” yes, they are. There are many false “gods.” Buddha. Muhammad. On and on the list goes. Oh, yes, the most important one in this discussion, the “god” known as “free thinking” (better known as “atheism”). You worship the god of no gods and believe everything came from nothing. Yes, these false religions are stupid and ridiculous as all other false religions. Only Jesus can satisfy your soul because He is the ONLY way to Heaven. He is the “way, the truth and the life.” Jehovah is the One True God, and His one and only Son is Jesus Christ. Let go of your hate! You cannot win any argument against the truth.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            You are using your own moral intuitions to authenticate the wisdom of the Bible – and then, in the next moment, you assert that we human beings cannot possibly rely upon our own intuitions to rightly guide us in the world.

            You are a walking – talking contradiction in terms.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, it is you who use your own “free thinking” and human reasoning that is trying to disprove the Bible. I have no need to prove it. I study its proof so that I might give a defense of it. It is you who are hell-bent on destroying the influence of Christianity in society. You are losing this war. The reason you are losing is because your human logic is flawed, and is subject to change from person to person. God’s Word is changeless, always the same, and dependable in all aspects. I am not the contradiction. It is you, with your own flawed theories and humanly invented ideas that are flawed. Give up your hate. You cannot win against the truth.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            You didn’t address the core issue – please read my statement again and think about it.

          • A. Neumann

            Bullshit, Bullshit, and more Bullshit!!!

          • pastoredsmith

            I won’t answer this one. I defer this one to God Himself.

          • prinefan

            That’s who he was referring to.

          • A. Neumann

            Funny, I haven’t heard from your non-existent god yet!

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s because you can’t see the truth because you are blinded by your own hatred. You know that He does exist. In your heart, you know that your logic is flawed and that your homemade ideas are without merit. And, you have heard from Him. You just weren’t listening. Let go of your hate. It makes you say and do stupid things.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            I’m not blinded by a hatred of God. Do you know why? Because I wasn’t raised in ANY religion. I did not go to church as a child. I do not hate Unicorns and I do not hate this God of yours. I know for a fact that donkeys and burning bushes do not talk. I cannot logically think that it is moral to teach people to stone a woman to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night. Can you? I cannot logically think that an omnipotent God who knows everything had to kill everyone (save eight) because His creation turned out the way that He knew it would turn out. Do you excuse away such a heinous act as that of righteousness? Didn’t the Bible warn of such things? “Some will call bitter, sweet and sweet, bitter” Do you excuse away Jeffery Dahmer or Adolph Hitler’s atrocities, like you do God’s atrocities, because they had their reasons?

          • pastoredsmith

            To be a person who claims not to have been raised by any religion, you act like you know a lot about the Bible, yet you know nothing about the things you say. If you were a true student of the Bible, you would understand that much of the Old Testament is “Law” designed to deal with a barbaric people in a despirate time.
            The problem here is as usual with you Religious atheists. You use your logic to determine your messed up perception of the truth. You have no real knowledge of what Christians believe or you would not make such wild accusations that have no basis at all.
            You say you don’t hate God? But, you apparently hate His people. You do hate Christianity, although you don’t understand it. You don’t know what we believe, so you make this junk up as you go along.
            You do have an anger problem. You are angry that people like me are at peace with Christ and you struggle with the questions like “what if I’m wrong?” or “How will it be when I die?” You can’t prove how this earth got here with your home made theories and “free thinking.” You have nothing except flawed human logic. Man made theories that don’t hold water.
            No, you are angry. You really should let it go. Your hatred for Christians and God does shine through. I will pray that God helps you open your eyes to the truth and let go of your hate.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            “You don’t know what we believe, so you make this junk up as you go along.” Isn’t that what you did to Atheists when you stated earlier that the Atheists believe that the Universe came from nothing? Atheism doesn’t speak to how the Universe came to be or even “How will it be when I die?” It only speaks to the God not existing. And for the record, I CAN tell you how it will be when you die, it will be EXACTLY like it was BEFORE you were born.
            “What if I’m wrong?” If I am wrong and this God is all knowing then He already knows my choices, even before I do, thus God is well aware that when He created me, I would not choose to believe. And further, He is malevolent for creating me knowing that I would never believe and then sending me to hell for not believing. Now, what’s if you are wrong and the correct God wrote the Bible to see who would worship an evil being that killed everyone (save eight) to find out who is truly evil in their heart and only allows those who don’t worship this monster into heaven, after all He did say there would be those who call “bitter, sweet”.
            Although I NEVER went to church, I did read the Bible (from cover to cover, twice). I did not find the answers to the any questions, but instead found ridiculous and silly stories (people living over 200 years, thousands of years ago, every animal on an ark, talking bushes, etc.)
            I find your assertion that I am angry at people like you silly, it is you whom has shown anger towards those who don’t believe as you do and will not kowtow to you. Am I angry? No. But, if I am not angry why to I write on these boards? Because I do not want your religion dictating the lives and education of others. Wanting children to be brought without religious dictates does not make me angry, but apparently makes you very, very angry.

          • pastoredsmith

            “You don’t know what we believe, so you make this junk
            up as you go along.” Isn’t that what you did to Atheists when you stated earlier that the Atheists believe that the Universe came from nothing? Atheism doesn’t speak to how the Universe came to be or even “How will it be when I die?” It only speaks to the God not existing. And for the record, I CAN tell you how it will be when you die, it will be EXACTLY like it was BEFORE you were born.”

            More vein babblings from a fool (Psalms 14:1). You make it
            up as you go. You say you don’t believe in the big bang theory or evolution, then what religion do you believe in? Atheism says “there is no god.” If there is no God, then there was no Creator. And, I have bad news for you. When you die, you are in for a huge surprise. I can guarantee you will feel differently when you see your death is imminent. Facing your own mortality is not as easy as reasoning it away when you know deep down that you have believed a lie.

            “What if I’m wrong?” If I am wrong and this God is
            all knowing then He already knows my choices, even before I do, thus God is well aware that when He created me, I would not choose to believe. And further, He is malevolent for creating me knowing that I would never believe and then
            sending me to hell for not believing. Now, w hat’s if you are wrong and the correct God wrote the Bible to see who would worship an evil being that killed everyone (save eight) to find out who is truly evil in their heart and only allows those who don’t worship this monster into heaven, after all He did say
            there would be those who call “bitter, sweet”.

            More vein babbling. Your logic fails again. The Bible clearly tells us that God gave mankind a “free will” to choose or not to choose Him. Yes, He knew who would choose what, but He granted us the choice. You send yourself to hell if you end up there. You have the choice NOW to avoid it. The monster in this debate are atheists who have used their own mental midget minds to try and disprove God. You cannot win against truth.

            Although I NEVER went to church, I did read the Bible (from
            cover to cover, twice). I did not find the answers to the any questions, but instead found ridiculous and silly stories (people living over 200 years, thousands of years ago, every animal on an ark, talking bushes, etc.)

            I find your assertion that I am angry at people like you silly, it is you whom has shown anger towards those who don’t believe as you do and will not kowtow to you. Am I angry? No. But, if I am not angry why to I write on these boards?
            Because I do not want your religion dictating the lives and education of others. Wanting children to be brought without religious dictates does not make me angry, but apparently makes you very, very angry.

            Reading the Bible through twice does not make you an expert, especially when you are already prejudiced against it and are trying to find flaw. That type of prejudice helps you create errors that are not there and draw conclusions that can only be the result of a sinful mind that is hell-bent
            on disproving God. You can laugh and scoff at the true stories of the Bible all you want.

            Call my assertion that you are angry at people like me “silly” if you must, but I am not the one suing everyone in the USA
            that you can get to for daring practice their religion in public. It is your anger that led you to come to this website and spend your time insulting those of us who believe in God. It is you who insult and degrade, not me. Christianity does not dictate anybody’s lives. It sets you free from bondage of lies that you wallow in. No, I am not angry at you. I do wish to stop your hate mongering in public school that forces them to practice your religion. No religion equals atheism. And, you know that. But, you deny it because if America gets wise to the fact that atheism is a religion and that you are forcing your religion in the public, you will be silenced. Wanting children to be raised without God is cruel. They should have the choice of their own. You seem afraid that if the truth is shared publicly that your logical, mixed up belief system will be flushed down the toilet.

            Yes, I admonish you again. Let go of your hate of God and
            His followers. He loves you and wants to give you peace.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            “You say you don’t believe in the big bang theory or evolution, then what religion do you believe in?” Actually, I never stated any such thing, why did you make that up? Why does anyone have to have a religion? I already stated that I wasn’t raised in ANY religion. “If there is no God, then there was no Creator” Why do you presume that the Universe has a creator, when it could have formed through nature. Not knowing how the Universe was created does not mean that there is a creator.
            I will not feel differently, when my death is imminent. For the record, I died when I was younger (I was revived) and was also in a foreign war. As I wasn’t raised in ANY religion, it has never occurred to me to pray or any such thing to an imaginary being. On your deathbed are you going to pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, because you will finally realize that you have been worshipping the wrong God all along?

            If reading the Bible through doesn’t make you an expert, then you yourself are no expert, no matter how many times you have read the Bible and thus are not sufficient to speak or quote from the Bible and should be disregarded.

            Of course, you already know that the stories in the Bible are false, that is why religion uses ideas like parables, moral ideologies, etc. Besides that you can’t convince me that you actually believe that a donkey or a burning bush talked.

            You are right, children should be allowed to have a choice of religion, when they are old enough to understand what they are being taught, not forced into it by their parents. At least we both agree on this. Remember, I wasn’t raised in any religion and think the stories in the Bible are just that, stories. I think we both know how children will turn out if they are not brain-washed, I mean, taught, about the Bible at a young age, but instead allowed to learn about the Bible when they have understanding and comprehension.

            “I admonish you again…” more vein babbling.

          • pastoredsmith

            I honestly appreciate your service for our country. I have a son in the military and I understand the sacrifice. My children grew up in a Christian home, yet they were not forced to do anything. Any Christian who understands that they are only given a temporary gift of children also knows that, even if they could force their children into servitude, it wouldn’t be from the heart and therefore not genuine. Children have a free will, just as you do to serve whichever god they choose. You have chosen to worship the god of atheism, and it is a religion compete with mega churches, “clergy” and a tax exemption. Atheism, although vehemently denied by its constituents is indeed a religion just like any other.

            Whether you believe in the big bang or evolution or some other man made fable about nature creating the universe, you have to attribute the Creation to something. Is “nature” your god? If “nature” created the universe, then nature must be a god. But, the truth is that there is only ONE explanation to creation. God did it, just as He indicated through His people in Genesis.

            You can assert that the stories in the Bible are false, yet you continue to believe that the universe “somehow” came into existence. I admit, it takes a lot more “faith” to believe that nonsense than to understand the truth. If “nature” did create the universe, do you suppose that “nature” could also “work miracles?” One thing though. Nature could not give His life for mankind to redeem him from his fallen state. And, if you say that is hogwash, then I ask you this; where did morals come from? Why is it wrong to murder? Or is it? According to the premise of what you call “free thought,” the definition of what murder is or is not should be determined by the individual. So, what you consider “murder” might not be “murder” to me and vice versa. There can be no absolutes if atheism is true and accurate; yet we are surrounded by a world full of absolutes. The morals of mankind, even if he has twisted or reinterpreted them to his own vices, were originated with God’s Law. There are no absolute morals apart from God. All other religions copy God’s Law. And, all false religions get it wrong. Christianity got God’s Law and the age of Grace through Jesus Christ right.

            I contend, reading the Bible through doesn’t make you an expert any more than reading War and Peace through twice makes you an expert on the subject. You must study the Bible. You must dig to understand all it is saying. I am not an expert after 40 years of study and research. The wonder of the Bible is that the more you learn about it, the more you realize how much you don’t know about it. It is a wonderful journey learning about God in truth. You really should try it with an open mind. You call yourself a “free thinker” (most atheists do), so if that is the case, why can you not be open and objective and study the Bible with an open mind rather than one that is determined to read only enough of its content to support your twisted ideas.

            Misinterpreting the Bible is common these days. For example, I can prove that the Bible say, “there is no god.” It really does. Psalms 14:1. Read it for yourself and you can see that it is easy to interpret the Bible for your own gain, if that is what you are trying to do.

            Finally, there are many Christians in the world who “don’t get it right.” There are many people in the world who claim the name of Christ and don’t live according to His Word. Just as there are “atheists” who claim to believe your teachings; yet they struggle with the existence of God. I know for a fact that most atheists have this struggle, just as all human beings do. After all, if you understand the Bible, you understand how the enemy of our human soul, satan, roams about seeking whom he may devour. And, devour he does. He causes angry people to rebel and do dumb things. He tricks people into believing false doctrines and teachings. He even tricks preachers into teaching heresy. But, all this does not negate God nor His Word. Rather, it lets us know that it lets us know that someone else’s choice brought us to this place, and I can either add to the world’s problems or choose Christ and hope to make it better. Atheists say that Christian influence has damaged the world. I submit that true Christians are the reason the world has the sanity it has and that fake Christians or those who are Christians in name only are the culprit. They teach false doctrines and hurt people because they are selfish and self centered. True Christians realize they cannot save the world by themselves, but do all they can to help people within their sphere of influence.

            The reason I continually encourage atheists to let go of their hate is because most of them are disgruntled Christians. Maybe that is true in your case, at least according to what you tell me. I don’t know you. But, I do know what a true relationship with the Creator of the universe will do for you. You will have peace that passes your own understanding. No, it is not a perfect life. There is always someone or something there to challenge your faith. And, you will never be perfect; just forgiven. Set free to live a life that is exciting, fulfilling and full of Joy. That is what I encourage you to try with an open mind. I dare you.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            When oxygen and hydrogen come together due to magnetism, gravity and physics and “creates” water, does that force of nature become God? Of course not. Those same forces can create a Universe. But, God has a larger and more difficult problem. Who created the Creator. An infinite Creator, means that you are looking for a creator of the Universe when it, itself could be infinite also. Why do you hold the Universe, physics, magnetism, etc. to a different standard in order to “create” your God. Further, as stated before not knowing how the Universe was created does not make for God.

            You question how morals came to be, but morals existed well before the notion of the Christian God. Places that did not have the Christian God were moral, such as the Japanese and Tibetans. Morals are not derived from a God, but from normal methods such as upbringing, social norms, etc. If you lack morals, you do not lack religion, you lack empathy and humanity.
            A person whom must have a God to set their moral foundation is a very, very scary person. To state that, but for God, you would rape and murder is sociopathic.

            “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” …Stephen F Roberts
            I am at peace, without your God, for I know that I didn’t have to make up a deity, that we both know does not exist, to quit being afraid of the unknown or to make up answers to questions that humans may never find the answer to.

          • pastoredsmith

            You have given a plethora of bad and faulty information. 1) “Those same forces can create a Universe.” Then, why are they not creating within our universe even now?
            What stopped them from creating?
            Who created the elements of oxygen, hydrogen, magnetism, gravity and physics? Did they “just happen?” Of course not. Nothing comes from nothing, and that is a definite law of
            physics. If we are to invoke physics, then we must also realize that nothing does not equal masses of collective and
            complicated universes. It would be the same if I believed the ridiculous notion that the Bible I hold in my hand came
            as a direct result of an explosion in a print shop that didn’t even print Bibles; yet the result was stacks and stacks of Bibles on the sidewalk near the destroyed building. Not going to happen; yet all the “raw materials” are in the building, the explosion had ample energy to do the job. But, the
            reason it didn’t happen that way is the same as the reason the universe didn’t “just happen.” Raw force with raw
            materials without being molded into proper shape and the force contained equals nothing but rubble.

            “Who created the Creator?”
            Nobody did. God has always been. He is infinite. No beginning and no end. That shouldn’t be so hard to understand because He has already been around longer than the universe has.

            “Why do you hold the Universe, physics, magnetism, etc. to a
            different standard in order to ‘create’ your God?”
            First of all, we did not “create” God. If we created Him, He would be of no more value than your theories that simply don’t hold up under examination. Any “god” that is man made, including the a-theology that teaches “there is no god” is flawed, false and misleading. I submit that atheists created the imaginary bubble that there is no God in order to live the way they wish with no consequences and become the master of their lives so that their own twisted lifestyle can flourish. Remember, there are no absolute morals without God. Man
            is not capable of creating laws that all agree with and setting absolute standards. Laws change with culture. Laws are made today and broken by the time the ink is dry on the paper. Your morals will not agree with many other people’s morals. Opinion is worthless because everybody has one and most do not agree. And, your last statement rebuttal, yes, it is everything if you have no credible theory about how the universe was formed. By missing that foundational cornerstone, you miss the whole boat. There is no other answer than “God created the Universe just as He said He did in Genesis.”

            “You question how morals came to be, but morals existed well before the notion of the Christian God.”
            No, they didn’t. First of all, God is not a “Christian God.” He is God. Period. His Name is Jehovah and His Son’s Name is
            Jesus Christ. Period. God preceded Christianity but not Christ Himself. Morals started in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and paid the penalty for it. And, if you remove God and all His Laws and teachings of the Bible from all history past, no other religion known to man would have morals at all. They all, including atheism, pick and choose which parts to counterfeit and do so with their own twists and alterations added to them. That is why they are all called “false religions.” They copy the real
            thing.

            “Places that did not have the Christian God were moral, such
            as the Japanese and Tibetans. Morals are not derived from a God, but from normal methods such as upbringing, social norms, etc. If you lack morals, you do not lack religion, you lack empathy and humanity.
            A person whom must have a God to set their moral foundation is a very, very scary person. To state that, but for God, you would rape and murder is sociopathic.”
            Even the Japanese and the Tibetans, among all the other
            people groups of all time past used some of God’s laws for their bedrock. Mankind did not invent morals. He is not capable of being consistent enough to do so without much debate. The current debate in the US over things like Abortion and Homosexuality (Gay Marriage) are examples of how people try to change things previously considered
            “abnormal” to “normal” and “illegal” to “legal” are great examples of how inconsistent man is. God’s law never
            changes. It doesn’t change over the years unless God speaks certain laws to certain people groups as He did back in the very barbaric Old Testament days. Then, He makes it specific as to whom He speaks. No, morals are not derived from “a” god, but from God Almighty alone.
            Who created empathy and humanity? They just “happened” as well? Come on. That makes no sense at
            all.

            Your last statement is totally out in left field. All morality (the standard of what is and is not moral) originated with God alone. Scary? I’ll tell you what is scary! People who are “free thinkers” and believe they can decide for themselves what is right and wrong and let all other people on planet earth do likewise. Chaos is the aftermath of that kind of thinking.
            Not “sociopath,” rather “sinful and in need of a Savior.” A sociopath is one who does not revere God and decides in his own mind what is right and wrong and does it “his way.” Sort of like a “free thinker” is capable of.

            “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” …Stephen F Roberts
            I am at peace, without your God, for I know that I didn’t
            have to make up a deity, that we both know does not exist, to quit being afraid of the unknown or to make up answers to questions that humans may never find the answer to.”
            Completely ridiculous. Stephen F. Roberts must have been a God hater as well. The very word “atheist” means “A (anti) –
            Theist (belief in God)” or, simply put, a person who does not believe in God. The truth is that all of mankind has a “God void” inside him from birth. You need God, and down deep you know that. Your logic falters. Your free thinking causes you to believe lies when the truth is right in front of your face. And, I know for a fact that you cannot be at peace without God! Only God brings true joy and peace, and I know for a fact that a human being trying to reason his way through life while trying to disprove God’s existence is a miserable human being. You cannot quarrel within yourself about the truth of God’s existence and be at peace. If you know a thing is true and deliberately try to convince yourself that it is false or fake, it sets up a miserable existence. I contend that we both know that God does exist, and that it is you who has doubts.
            You must hate that struggle. I know that I did because I was there once in my lifetime, and I understand it completely. My best advice for you is to just give it up and acknowledge what you already know to be true! God is exactly who He says He is, He loves you and has a plan for your life. That is not a cliche, it is the truth. Your life will be flooded with peace that passes understanding and I promise your new-found faith in the God of the Universe will walk beside you every day of your life. That, my friend, is no fairy tale. And, I can certify that to be true. You are in my most sincere prayers.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            Oooh…you are to wordy. Your first premise, which you hold on to even in light of the evidence speaks volumes about your inability to think for yourself. You have consistently stated that Atheism makes a statement of how the Universe came to be, IT DOES NOT. Atheism does not and has never made such a statement. Atheism doesn’t state that the Universe came from nothing, only you and your inability to understand science make that statement. Even when one holds that my ideologies regarding the possibility of science being the answer for how the Universe came to be, are untrue, that does not equate to God being true. Your first premise does nothing to prove God, even if my premise is incorrect.
            Your second premise that other Godless cultures find morals from God makes no sense what-so-ever. Who created empathy? Well, that is simple, no one created empathy. Empathy is part of the function that is created in societies to enable them to survive as a group, essentially it has evolved for the survival of the species. It is silly to think that intangible things (feelings) must have a “creator”.
            I have always thought that deep down, everyone knows for a fact that God is nothing more than a wish and dream for answers to frightening questions. Your lack of rational thought and irrational premises when faced with the truth makes me believe this much more so. Since I now know that you are either a POE or trying so hard to rationalize this God and have never answered any questions I have asked, I know that your faith is not truly there. Welcome to Atheism, whether you know it or not, whether you admit it or not.

          • pastoredsmith

            Well, this is the stupidest response yet. Now, you pass judgement on me. You cannot accept the truth and refuse to listen when facts are presented to you. I have plenty of ability to think for myself. But, I don’t live in a fantasy world. I live in the light of truth. OK, atheism doesn’t make a statement about how the universe began. It ignores it. The most important thing to understand if we are to grasp the truth, and atheism ignores it. Do you also ignore anything you disagree with or do not understand it? Ignoring the consequences of sin will not negate the permanent punishment it will bring. Nothing to prove God? You have reasoned that God does not exist, yet you ignore the very Creation He created? You can look at this complex world we live in, the incredibly complex body we occupy and you cannot see the Hand of the Creator? No explanation to you means that you reason it can’t be true? What kind of illogical stupidity is that? It is you who fail to disprove God’s existence. All you can do is be a “free thinker” who begins with one premise and gets hung there, no matter how much proof you see. How blind you are to the truth!

            I love it when you use the word “create.” Man “created” empathy, you say? Then man is “god” in your eyes? It is you who recreate God in your own image rather than merely accept who He says He is. Empathy came into existence by itself just the universe did? Nature “created” the universe? No explanation of this? You contradict yourself at every turn. You, my friend, are very confused. if you will not at least try to listen with an open mind rather than a mind jammed with “free thought” from a purely illogical human perspective, you will never understand the truth.

            Who did create empathy? You say man. I say “hogwash.” man cannot create anything. All he can do is to rearrange what God created. Man cannot speak something into existence, no matter how small. Empathy? Just like all other human emotions. Created by God. Sometimes distorted by man. You have to have more faith in something than I have in God to believe the nonsense you spout.

            It is not “everyone” who feels towards God as you do. In fact, the majority of Americans are Christians; at least in name. More people have, for millennia understood who God is. Even when I looked up the word “millennium” in dictionary.com, it said, ” the period of a thousand years during which Christ will reign on earth…” It does take a fool to deny the existence of God in light of the proof of creation and God’s handiwork in creation, a thing that you wish to ignore.

            Sir, you are the atheist, no matter your accusations. You are so hopelessly twisted in your own hate for God’s people that you through groups like FFRF wish to destroy that you just can’t see the truth for the fog. And, mental fog only clears in the light of God’s truth, not through human reasoning. You cannot win an argument against the truth, no matter how you try. Human logic cannot create the truth. Human reasoning cannot replace God with anything real. Give this charade up while you still can and accept the truth that God indeed is real, and is exactly who He says He is.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            I’m not sure that your inability to accept those things which must be true really helps you make any points to anyone reading this that Christianity or God must exist. In-fact, I think you do exactly the opposite. Your proof is that a website uses a non-existent being as a definition, sad really. God says that if you call anyone a fool, you shall burn in Hell forever, it’s in His book. Again, I do not hate Unicorns, pink skies, or your God. Your logic is so twisted and you, of course will never see that.

          • pastoredsmith

            What you constantly miss here is that this is not my logic. Human logic is flawed. It is based on “what I believe,” and that has nothing to do with reality in many cases. You have no explanation of the Creation of the world, yet you ignore it. You have no explanation how the complex human body works, but you “believe” that God didn’t create it and it just popped into being from “nothing.” I have no faith in a website nor in another human being who builds his entire existence on “what he believes.” You are much like the people in the Old Testament who “did what was right in their own eyes.”
            As to what I understand, I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that God created the universe and no amount of your imagination can waver that. Sir, it is you who is flawed in your thinking and simply refusing to give up this ridiculous quarrel with God. Yes, your quarrel is with HIM not me. This is not about what I believe any more than what you believe. It is about “thus says the Lord.” If God said it, that is all that matters. His existence is not dependent on whether you or I believe in Him. I didn’t create Him. He has always been.
            I pray that you will look again with an open mind and see the truth that you are blinded from at this point in your life. May God bless you, sir. Have a wonderful day.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            Oh, no I don’t think that humans popped into being from “nothing”. I’ve never stated that and you are incorrect. Since you must know I do not know how life came from non-living material and I do not make up a God to explain it away. If you want my opinion, I can give it, but that does not make my opinion correct. So, as it stands at this point in time, the answer is real simple, “I don’t know”.
            If you can’t waver on your belief system, then you can’t ever accept anything other than what you already know. If you can only accept what you already know then you will never become knowledgeable of things that are unknown to you. In other words, if science ever does come up with how life came from non-living material you will never accept it.
            Now, let’s both assume that I am incorrect about God and that He does exist. We know that our Intelligence is what sets us apart from the other creations of this God. In-fact, one could argue that our brain is the greatest gift of this God and why we have free-will. Yet, you have spat on this gift with your unwillingness to waiver on anything that you choose to not accept, facts be damned. What a arrogant and spiteful thing to do to God’s gift to you.

          • pastoredsmith

            All I am hearing from you is confusion. You say you do not know how life came from non-living material, and I assume you do not know the origin of that “non-living material” either. As to your accusation that I have made “up a God to explain it away,” you couldn’t be more wrong. I didn’t “make up” God. How can you make up something that has always been in existence? How can you defy the existence of someone who created the world and still rules over it? You think that because the world is imperfect that God simply cannot be who He says He is. That is wrong. The world is the way it is because God CHOSE to allow mankind to decide how he would live his life rather than create us as “puppets.” Yes, it was much more difficult than just creating robots, but God is bigger than robots. Jesus died so that even if only one person….even if that was you….accepted of your own free will to serve Him that you could have eternal life from that point forward, There is no perfection in one who knows Christ. We are still flawed. Still imperfect. Still a work in progress. But, God still loves us. This is not a fairy tale.
            I think your problem is that you do know the truth is that God is real and is exactly who He says He is but you, of your own volition, choose to refuse to believe Him and try to make stuff up on your own to prove your feelings. That is the part that is the most flawed about your confused posts.

            It is not “my” belief system that is flawed that I refuse to waiver from; rather it is your flawed human intellect that you rely upon that is flawed and full of unanswered questions. It is you who are confused and have no answers. If you are this confused in something as simple as understanding that God is exactly who He says He is, you must be totally confused in most other areas of your life, too. Only God brings peace that passes understanding. You can’t get it from flawed human intellect or fairy tales.

            You say that I can only accept anything other than what I already know. Well, I was where you are many years ago. I found myself not believing in God, and struggled with it extensively. I do know that pain. I do understand that struggle. I carefully researched everything I could find, and discovered that science (true science, not fables concocted or altered by man) emphatically proves God is exactly who He says He is. There is more scientific evidence that proves God than anything else in the scientific field, except, of course, for the lies and altered concoctions of man such as the Big Bang and Evolution. None of these man-made fairy tales hold water up against the true evidence of Creation and God’s Handiwork.

            You accuse me of not “becoming knowledgeable,”of things that are unknown to you…,,” yet it is you who are uncertain of anything except that you hate the idea that you could be wrong. You cannot accept the truth unless you allow yourself to truly, and with an open mind, read the Bible; read and study scientific proofs that the universe was created and that you are indeed in need of a Savior (there is only one, Jesus Christ). But, you are deathly afraid to be that open minded because I believe that, down deep, you know the truth and refuse to let go of your deception. Why don’t you let it go today?

            As to your last ridiculous ideas about God, our intelligence is given by God. He made us a little lower than the angels and above the animal kingdom. That is why we don’t have wings and sing in God’s choir and why we are smarter than animals. At least some of us are. Yes, the brain and free will are among the greatest gifts God gave us, but the absolutely greatest gift He gave us was His ONLY son, Jesus Christ who died so we don’t have to; in spite of our past sins and rejections of God. You accuse me of spitting on this gift, but you couldn’t be more wrong. I am thankful for every gift God gave me and I try to use it to the best of my ability. I do not “damn” facts nor do I ignore them. But, I do understand that all “facts” presented by mankind are not “facts” but hyperbole and conjecture. And, I’m anything but arrogant and spiteful. I am a kind and loving man with a passion for telling others about Christ. That will never change.

            I implore you. Give up this ridiculous notion that God doesn’t exist and just look around….you will see His handiwork everywhere. Not evolved or somehow coming from lower forms of life that evolved from non-living material; a thing which is NOT possible. Only a Creator could be the cause of all we enjoy in our world.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            Oh, I think you misinterpreted me, I know for a fact that YOU & I BOTH do not know how life came from non-living material. I implore you, give up this ridiculous notion that God exists and just look around. You will see the properties of physics everywhere. You will see how life evolved from lower forms and from non-living material, the mechanisms having yet to be discovered. Only a person whom makes up a creator fails to enjoy all that is available in this world.
            Your first mistake is that the Bible doesn’t prove God’s existence, it only proves that someone wrote a Book about a God. Harry Potter books do not prove magic, only that someone wrote a book about magic. Since your first premise, that the Bible proves God’s existence, is false, we can disregard any more in regard to this God.

          • Giraffe-Junk

            Which one sounds more ridiculous, God breathed life into dirt and that his how non-living material became living breathing beings or “We don’t know”.

    • prinefan

      Nuts like you are why people kill each other over imaginary gods and self serving religions. You need your a-s beat.

      • pastoredsmith

        Man-made logic leads to bullying. Prinefan, you prove my point well. Your anger only serves to make you look stupid. Let go of your hatred and accept Christ before it is too late and you face hell for eternity.

        • prinefan

          Your brain is infected, contaminated, terrified, enslaved and controlled by the scam/disease of religion. You had better keep your nonsense to yourself and leave normal people alone and you better pass this along to your fellow lunatics. We are done.

          • pastoredsmith

            Not religion. Religion is false. It is counterfeit. It copies the truth; as does atheism. Christianity is the truth. Jehovah God is the only God. The Creator of the Universe. The One who Created you! Go ahead and call us names. It is your hatred that is glowing here. Let go of your hate. It doesn’t help your argument.

      • D. Morgan

        I forgive you your trespass. I pray that you will find salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, and loose yourself from your hatred and pain.

        • prinefan

          Praying is embarrassing, stupid, childish, ridiculous, useless nonsense and a waste of time like imaginary gods and religious scams. Put a bone in your nose, beat a drum, dance naked around a fire-it does more good than praying=pretending to talk to imaginary beings. People who do that are not normal and are a threat and danger to those of us who are. You are responsible and personally to blame for the damage religion has done to our world and I am going to hold you accountable.

          • pastoredsmith

            Praying to false gods is “embarrassing, stupid, childish, ridiculous, useless nonsense and a waste of time” You see, I believe that all people should be allowed to pray or not pray in school or government as they see fit. Even atheists have the right to spread their “religion.” I’m not afraid of lies and darkness, It will be shown as what it is in the light of the Truth of God. Your bullying threats do not deter me. It is you who hates me, not vice versa. You wish to eradicate the earth of Christianity. And, if there is anyone responsible for the fall of the USA, it is atheists. Godlessness is a religion, and you cannot win. Your hatred makes you angry, doesn’t it. The truth will win. You cannot win against the truth. Lies always crumble. Let go of your hate while you have time.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            NO – just praying to any god is silly and perverse.

          • pastoredsmith

            You atheists amaze me. When you have nothing credible to say, you just spout your anger and prove my point that you hate God. Let go of your hatred!

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I know exactly what I’m saying.

            It’s not anger to point out perverse nature of religious servitude.

            You just don’t want to hear it because you are invested in your beliefs.

            try again….

          • pastoredsmith

            No need to try again. I have presented the truth and you have rejected it. You know that I’m right. You know that there really is a God, and who He is. I’d bet that you won’t be cursing Him when it is only minutes until you breathe your last breath. You are brave now because your human logic tells you that you are not alone, and that we all will just die and that is the end of it. But, you are in for a big surprise. Yes, you do have an anger problem. And, it is all directly aimed at God and His followers. Let go of your anger and hate. It will destroy your life. It’s not worth it. Let God bring you peace that passes understanding. He is waiting for you.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            It always comes down to threats in the end doesn’t it?

            This is how religion warps the mind and spreads through fear.

            Disgusting and immoral.

          • pastoredsmith

            I don’t make threats. I do preach the Word of God. Hell is real. It is not “religion” that I preach. It is Christianity. And, I see you have no more arguments. Your human logic falters again. Let go of your hate.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            You preach fear and harassment …but the most sinister of your evil preachment’s? —-constant and unending surveillance.

          • James Grimes

            Pastor Ed, they are a joke. I do have to commend you on your efforts, though. Personally, I don’t waste my time on militant Atheists. I laugh at their antics. They are so misguided that they are a joke to believers on this site and, probably, to themselves as well. I find reading their posts to be very entertaining.

          • pastoredsmith

            Thanks James. I appreciate your support and comments.

          • James Grimes

            No problem, Pastor. Stay strong in the faith and look for these guys to entertain you.

          • Katwise

            Is your name Ed Smith, or are you Mr. Smith who has been “pastored”?

  • Jefferson_Lebowski

    The time of religion and it’s enslavement of the human species in mind and body is slowly beginning to fade.

    This is the beginning of the emancipation of the human mind from bad ideas, superstitious nonsense and ignorance.

    • pastoredsmith

      That’s where you’re most deceived. You cannot rid the world of truth. Atheists are being exposed for what they are. Bullies. Haters of God and haters of Christians. Desirous of removing Christianity from the face of the earth.
      Only Christ can set the mind and the soul free. Your “superstitious nonsense and ignorance” is beginning to come into the light of day. Let go of your hate before it is too late!

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        We are allowed to question your basic assertions.

        And in light of the fact that you have no evidence for your numerous supernatural claims (and they are NUMEROUS) we must use common sense and assume that you are invested in a lie.

        • pastoredsmith

          You keep talking about evidence, yet you admit that your belief system is based on “logic” and “free thought?” Your man-made fairy tales fall to the wayside and die. The fact that the world is as it is, that history records so many of the things I mentioned, the Bible is full of truth that backs up what I say; yet you have nothing. A disgruntled preacher who theorized how man “evolved” from a lower life form and ended up recanting his theories on his deathbed? A group of people who consistently falsify tests and results of studies for the purpose of their own agendas? I invest in the Truth. It is you, my angry friend who invests in lies. Let go of your hate. It’s not helping your argument.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Produce this sky god that you think we should all bow down to….then we can have a real conversation.

          • pastoredsmith

            You can’t see the wind, yet you know it exists. You live on a planet that is teaming with life of the most complicated nature, yet you can’t explain it or reason it away. God is not on display for you to taunt. He allowed man to choose whether to obey Him or not. You have that choice. The proof is in the universe. It is in changed lives. It is in miracles that He has wrought. It is in His perfect will for mankind. It is even in your very existence. Now, we can have that conversation. Your hate cannot win. Only cause grief for you, my friend.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            None of these objective “truths” that we all share are evidence for your particular god. If they were – there wouldn’t be billions of people with different gods or no gods at all.

          • pastoredsmith

            I do not have a “particular god,” and you know that. There is only one God. His name is Jehovah, and His son’s name is Jesus Christ. As to there being many different gods, your “god” of “godlessness” is worst of all. You deny God because you hate God. What happened to you that caused you so much hatred towards God and His people? Let go of your hatred. It’s not worth it.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Now isn’t that interesting. There are Billions of Muslims who would say that your particular god isn’t real. And you would say the same about their god.

            Can’t we just send all of you children to the moon so you can argue and kill over your imaginary friend?

            The world would be a much more logical and probably quieter place without all you religious fanatics.

          • bigpawn01

            same claims every one else makes there is only one god. you sound a lot like a Muslim with that kind of reasoning. they are sister religions tho so no surprise.

          • bigpawn01

            “You live on a planet that is teaming with life of the most complicated nature, yet you can’t explain it or reason it away.” sure i can its called evolution everything on this planet came from a single self replicating single cell organism with the abity to make multiple copies of its own dna. for a sure and a better understanding try richard dawkins book the greatest show on earth. but i would recommend you get some one with an education to read it to you and stop every so often to explain to you what those big words mean.

          • KenS

            He will decide when to show up all on his own time and then you are right we all will bow down to him, but for some that bowing will be too late, because if you do not believe on Him and accept his sacrifice before he comes back, you will only be bowing to him right before your righteous judgment has been delivered.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Human beings have been saying this about their gods since they first became self aware and fearful of non-existence (death).

            Please….it’s getting old…all this belief on no evidence stuff.

          • KenS

            There is plenty of evidence, you just choose to ignore it.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.

          • KenS

            God proved it when he came down here 2000 years ago, died on a cross, was buried, then rose again 3 days later and was seen alive and well by upwards of 500 eye witnesses before ascending back to heaven. What more proof do you need?

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Excuse me but most Biblical scholars agree that the gospels were written (and changed – altered) a good 40 to 70 years after the supposed Jesus of Nazareth was said to have died (according to the Bible).

            It’s called a concentric circle or circular reasoning (which is to say that reason and logic have been kicked to the gutter).

          • KenS

            You dare accuse us of circular reasoning, when it is circular reasoning that you use to predict the age of rocks, base on the supposed age of the fossils found in said rocks. You believe a fossil to be such and such an age, therefore all rocks found with similar fossils have to be that age. That my friend is circular reasoning.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Where did I mention the origins of life or rocks?

            Let’s stick to your allegations of an omnipresent and omnipotent sky god.

          • pastoredsmith

            God’s omnipotence and omnipresence are apparent in Creation and in humanity. Even you, with your heart that automatically pumps blood and the fact that you have fingerprints proves God’s existence. Nothing so intricate and so complicated could come from “nothing.” No God equals “NO SENSE.” Human reasoning falters again. Let go of your hate. It makes you say dumb things.

          • bigpawn01

            none of those thing require a god and are not proof of a god. and if you think nothing can come from nothing you may want to try some quantum science on after you gain the education necessary to understand what you are reading. you could start with lawarnce krauss book a universe from nothing but you lack the education to understand what you read and besides who is a sceincetist with many degrees to think he know more than you right?

          • bigpawn01

            no ken that is science it is based on facts or conclusion drawn from observable facts. there is nothing circular about it it become circular when you fail to comprehend it and always come back to it when you try to ignore it and move past accepting it as the foundation of what follows. it is only circular for those who lack the education to comprehend what they read and those who are arrogant enough to believe their opinions or beliefs are of more value or more accurate than those of people who do have the education and evidence to back up their claims. you sir need an education before you start trying to decipher scientific reasoning and facts

          • KenS

            these books were written by the eyewitnesses, it does not matter if they were written 2 days or 70 years later, the people who wrote them are still the eyewitness and they had been out telling and retelling the same eyewitness accounts for the entire time, so therefore it was still in their minds as fresh as the day it happened, not to mention the fact that it was all given to them by God to write in the first place and therefore infallible.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Of course it matters: This was at a time of great ignorance, religious servitude and illiteracy.

            Of course it matters.

            Have you played “the Telephone Game”?

          • KenS

            the fact that the 4 gospels agree with each other puts holes in your telephone game theory. Not to mention the fact that God himself has promised to preserve his word forever.

          • bigpawn01

            fact none of the gospels conclusively agree with one another. and in places where they do seem to agree it has been said by biblical scholars they seem to be written by the same person. they differ in some area’s several seem to be totally oblivious to a virgin birth and they dis agree on events pertaining to christ resurrection and what he did after . but keep living in your denial if you ever set out for the truth and let it be done without bias you will be an atheist just like me.

          • pastoredsmith

            You can argue all you wish. You can reason all you wish. But, you cannot disprove that the original autographs of the Bible were not perfect in every manner. That is because you cannot deny the truth. You cannot also deny that God preserved His Word for us all these generations later, in spite of those who wished to alter it for whatever reason. That is because you cannot dispute the truth. You spout vein assertions that demonstrate your inane human reasoning and just how deeply flawed it is. Let go of your hate. God will welcome you home.

          • bigpawn01

            you ever hear on Constantine?? ever hear about the counsel of priest he called together to put the bible together? every hear about why or studied as to why he might do such a thing?? clue: it was not because he was a christian because he was not he claimed to be for the benefit of holding the Romans together.when they put your bible together they rejected many text that were just as valuable and some more valuable in terms of accuracy. some of them talk about homosexual relations among the disciples and mary being more than just a friend of jesus and many other things you would not believe. there are several documentaries out on the topic some you can watch on hulu others are on you tube and the net. these are facts you ignore and replace with your ignorant uneducated beliefs. i simple search on google for “Constantine and the bible” and “the agnostic books of the bible” will render results that will educate you or sending you into a relentless bout of denial. but the good news dont end there. because evidently constatine did not write the bible good enough to suit king james and he made correction and changed thing to suit the church of England needs when he translated it. that also can be conformed by an internet search. you just keep lie’ing to yourself tho it is quite humorous to watch it like like a child when his parents try to honestly explain to them why there is no Santa Claus.

          • bigpawn01

            wrong!!! not one book in the new testament was written by an eye witness to the events they were written years after the fact by people not even mentioned in the bible. it is a fact and you need to come to grips with that.

          • jmichael39

            “Excuse me but most Biblical scholars agree that the gospels were written (and changed – altered) a good 40 to 70 years after the supposed Jesus of Nazareth was said to have died (according to the Bible).” – I would LOVE to see this list of “most biblical scholars”. Even scholars who reject Christ, like Ehrman (sp?), accept that the gospel of Mark was written in the mid-40s and Luke and Matthew not long after that and John no later than the 60s. And John was an eye-witness (as was Matthew). The predominance of contextual critics accepts this reality and the existence of this “supposed Jesus” as you call Him. Its YOU who are seem to have accepted the rantings of a handful of experts as ‘gospel’ for your asinine beliefs. You are simply a gas to read, Jeff. You’re obscenely full of ____, but sooooo fun to read.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            If Jesus were a real man – he was probably an apocalyptic messianic preacher in a region chock full of them. Son of a god? I strongly doubt that.

          • pastoredsmith

            Doubt it? I thought you absolutely rejected God? Your demonstration of “doubt” says loudly that, down deep inside you do believe in God, but you are angry! Your doubts show your hate and your hate makes you look stupid. Let go of your hate!

          • bigpawn01

            talk about people looking stupid pastoredsmith speaks.

          • jmichael39

            There’s almost no expert in ancient middle eastern history who remotely doubts the reality of Jesus or the reality that His life created quite a substantive stir among the people of that region. If you want to doubt His own claims of being the Son of God, feel free. But again, its actually going to require to do some research and engage in a more intelligent conversation. Unless, of course, that’s honestly not of interest to you and you’re mere here to act like an ass.

          • bigpawn01

            where are these experts? why has the world not heard of them?? could it be because they like all the rest make claims that they have no evidence for? you talk about research but it is evident you have done none or have chosen to disregard any findings that would not support your fragile beliefs.

          • jmichael39

            What in the world are you talking about? Are you actually expecting anybody to take you seriously in a criticism of ancient history with arguments like that?

            There is more historical evidence for the existence and crucifixion of Jesus than literally any other figure in history. You can question the theological ramifications of any document in history that you want, but you will have to do a little better in calling into question the historical reality of the existence and crucifixion of Jesus. Even if you question the theology of the New Testament accounts, there is little ability to accurately question the fundamental history of it when there are outside sources to verify the general historical element of the books.

            We have, in fact, two classical sources that tell of Jesus, independently from the account of the biblical Gospels: the former has been written in ancient Greek by the Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (37 AD – ca. 100 AD), the latter in Latin by the great Roman historian Tacitus (AD 55-c.AD 117).

            Here’s what in 93 AD Flavius Josephus says in his “Antiquities of the Jews”, book 18,chapter 3, section 3:
            “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

            Similarly, in 109 AD the Roman historian Tacitus in his “Annals”, book 15, chapter 44, tells of a certain Christ who suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of the procurators, Pontius Pilatus.

            Here is the quote from Annals 15.44. where Jesus and the Christians are mentioned in an account of how the Emperor Nero went after Christians in order to draw attention away from himself after Rome’s fire of 64 AD:

            “But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order.

            Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (i.e. crucifixion) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus”.

            To conclude, the account of the biblical Gospels is correct in saying that Jesus lived and was crucified, since in the Roman Empire crucifixion was most frequently used to punish political or religious agitators, pirates, slaves, or those who had no civil rights as they are not Roman citizens, just like Jesus.

            That sufficient enough of EXPERTS for you? If not, then you’d better come up with a sufficient list of experts who can refute the historical evidence for His existence and crucifixion.

            Oh, and btw, before you make absurd statements like “you talk about research but it is evident you have done none”…YOU had better know what the heck YOU are talking about.

          • bigpawn01

            i know exactly what i am talking about and neither of the references you make are above question or ridicule. their seems to be some question about how valid either of their claims are and in some case’s as to weather they are not just plain forgeries or additions to both those men work. try again come back with some thing solid and undeniable. you know those are not solid and that there are just as may doubters about their credibility as they are those who claim they are creditable. i would list books and reference’s but i can tell you have give this a study and you know what i am saying is true. neither of those are unquestionable sources. and even if they are true none them would prove that jesus was a messiah or son of god or did any of the miracles accredited to him.

          • jmichael39

            “neither of the references you make are above question or ridicule” – Who said anything about being above question?

            There are three tests that should be applied to ANY ancient documents

            The Bibliographical test. This is an examination of the textual transmission by which the documents reach us. In other words, this determines whether or not the text that we have now is the same as what was originally recorded. Has the text been changed over time? Can we be sure that the documents of the New Testament that we now have, are the same as the ones originally recorded?

            The Internal evidence test. This determines whether what is written is credible (accurate/true) and to what extent. Were the writers of the New Testament telling the truth?

            The External evidence test. This determines whether other historical material confirms or denies the internal testimony of the documents. What sources are there, apart from the literature under analysis that substantiates its accuracy, reliability, and authenticity?

            If you want to get into that with regards to the evidence for the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, let’s do it. But don’t try to BS with your unsubstantiated statements.

            ” i would list books and reference’s but i can tell you have give this a study and you know what i am saying is true”

            Save your logical fallacies for someone who doesn’t understand logic. Yes, I HAVE studied contextual criticism in some detail. And YES, I have read articles by certain authors taking your position. But NO, there is little truth to anything say when contrasted with the vast majority of evidence contrary to their conclusions. When making a conclusion about something like this you take all pertinent data and draw up all the plausible conclusions and see which one properly addresses each of the data points the best and that would be the rational conclusion.

            In regards to the life of Jesus, there is no logical conclusion to the relevant and pertinent data points other than to accept the reality that Jesus did, indeed, live and that the historical information of the Gospels is something that must be taken seriously when addressing any of the details regarding the life of Jesus.

            Again, if you want to get into it, I’m game. But if you don’t think you can handle the debate, then I suggest you go somewhere else with your drivel. I’m not going sit here and let you spew your baseless rhetoric anymore…not on this site anyway.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao there is no hope for you. you think you have facts and you have nothing and i am not wasting my time trying to convince you i have a good “FACTUAL” book to read and have no time for low intelligence idiots. you are a disgrace to mankind and none of that crap is real you nor any one else had presented any evidence that could stand up to criticism to support you wild claims. i hope you know Santa Claus is not real to if not i hope your parents live a long time you seem quite comfortable under your shelter.

          • jmichael39

            In other words you don’t HAVE an argument and are little more than a boorish troll with nothing more than insults, baseless statements and a single quote from Bart Ehrman that you actually misrepresented. You’re a fraud and an intellectual coward.

          • bigpawn01

            ok jmicheal sorry i made ya mad because i wont be drawn in to a pointless debate with you. if you like debates try an atheist site there are guys that love to debate that hang out there.

          • jmichael39

            You’re a fraud…and intellectual coward. You couldn’t debate your way out of a paper bag much less defeat me in a debate. Give up and crawl back under that rock. The challenge as been made and you’re clearly too much of coward to accept.

          • bigpawn01

            ouhh yeah you have scared the crap outta me please dont hurt me…lol

          • jmichael39

            FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
            Ignorant, pathetic, cowardly FRAUD.
            Better go create a new profile BIGPAWN01…you’ve been laid out and exposed for the pathetic little fraud you are.

          • bigpawn01

            ouh yeah im on way to do that now. please stop your hurting me 🙂

          • bigpawn01

            there were many more just like him making the same claims in his day in that area. he just some how manage to catch on after years of his story being changed to make him appear to be some thing he is not. Christ if he ever did live was just one of many making the same claims. had thing turned out differently we could very well have been dealing with jason the true son of god or john the true son of god take your pick their were many messiahs in this area at this time.

          • bigpawn01

            denial at its best. fact: not one book of the new testament was written by an eye witness if you can find one idiot that would claim other wise please have them bring that evidence forward so the rest of us can profit from their vast wealth of knowledge. if Christianity was the sure thing you like to think it is every one would be christian.

          • jmichael39

            “fact: not one book of the new testament was written by an eye witness if you can find one idiot that would claim other wise please have them bring that evidence forward ” – No “idiot”…but more than sufficient numbers of history scholars, biblical scholars and textual critics. Oh, there are some who make contrary claims…no doubt…including uneducated buffoons, like you.

            The New Testament is constantly under attack, and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. If the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross-checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.

            There are nearly 9X as many manuscripts of the NT than there are of the nearest other ancient writing, Homer’s Iliad, 5700 to 650. If you want to down the veracity of the NT, then you’d better seriously doubt the historical reality of Homer, Socrates, Aristotle, Tacitus, Euripides, Plato and others.

            The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. That is an amazing accuracy. In addition, there are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages. The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000.

            Now I know this is just a tad too intellectual for a village idiot such as yourself…but try to follow along as best as you can with the adults in the room.

          • bigpawn01

            my poor delusional friend who has lost of grasp on reality. i dont know where you get you facts but they are not facts they are misinformation. i guess you took the same approach to this topic that most other christians do and that is find any information in support of your views or beliefs and dis-guard or dis credit the rest. rest assured those practices do not hold up in the real world and are only relevant in your fantasy. I’m tempted to just leave it at all you claims are false which they are and have zero evidence to support them even the claims of professional who support such idiocy. “but more than sufficient numbers of history scholars, biblical scholars and textual critics” this is wrong and in correct the majority who are “qualified” and’ educated” in this area of study even religious scholars at leading theology colleges all across america back up what i said no one who wrote the bible was a witness to the claims made and all of them came along years after then events and wrote down a story that up till then had only survived by word of mouth. none of the books of the nt were written by their name sake that they are credited to and it is mentioned many time by yes even biblical scholars. it is common knowledge that is even admitted by religious leaders and teachers. “This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross-checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.” Once again wrong and false. there are no original document for the new testament. but i must say at lest you did at lest try a nice copy and paste from http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence. sadly my friend where you made error was when you went to a bias source for information and thought you were gonna get factual information. the information to support what i said was equally available and more abundant but you chose to ignore that and go with your web site of bias that has no creditably. lets see just using an internet search lets go with this from wiki an actual factual site with creditably.” Textual scholar Bart Ehrman writes: “It is true, of course, that the New Testament is abundantly attested in the manuscripts produced through the ages, but most of these manuscripts are many centuries removed from the originals, and none of them perfectly accurate. They all contain mistakes – altogether many thousands of mistakes. It is not an easy task to reconstruct the original words of the New Testament..” just as i said none of the bible was written by an eye witness. but he is only one reference if you would use those same skills you used to dig up the bs you brought to the table you would find there are many more and those who agree with the credibility of the bible as far fewer than your source claims. “including uneducated buffoons” i suppose this was an effort to make your self feel superior? be sure my fried i have educated myself quite extensively on the topic and even more so than you in that i have studied it, watched documentaries, i bought books, researched “creditable” web sites all the information is there and yet you chose to ignore it and present claims by christian apologetics site i did a search for your claims and that was the first wen site that came up you really did not even make much of an effort to find any factual evidence for you claims, then ignorantly assuming i was some unschooled idiot that really had not studied my facts and say “Now I know this is just a tad too intellectual for a village idiot such as yourself.” you sir are a proven idiot and a lazy intellectual fraud. you took the first web site you could find that agree’d with what you wanted to say then copy and paste text in attempt to sound as if you were some kind of intellectual. i admit that is a pretty clever trick for a low life with low education and had i not been your superior you may have convinced of as much. you evidently do have some ability to think, reason and scheme why don’t you use that to get an education you might actually learn some thing. there is no excuse for ignorance in the middle of the information age. just as a reply your your web sites claims not that i think you have any Capacity for intelligent thought but just let me say the reason “Homer, Socrates, Aristotle, Tacitus, Euripides, Plato and others.” writings are more creditable than the new testament is because their writings came from the hand of those men. none of the nt was written by the original authors and were written by others years after the fact. if i remember correctly the book of mark is the only one that even came close being written i think was 60 years after the fact. dont bother replying your attempts at deceit have ruined any creditably you may have had with me and you have proven your self to be an idiot by attempting some thing so stupid and acting like it was some kind of original thought and think i was not intelligent enough to catch it. but do consider what i said about getting an education i do feel you may some day amount to something if you would just apply yourself.

          • jmichael39

            “i dont know where you get you facts but they are not facts they are misinformation.” – Prove it. Refute the information. In case you didn’t get the memo, simply calling something false doesn’t refute anything.

            “i guess you took the same approach to this topic that most other christians do and that is find any information in support of your views or beliefs and dis-guard or discredit the rest.” — Actually, a contextual critic takes all data into account, assesses all potential conclusion and typically accepts the
            conclusion that most sufficiently addresses the vast majority of or the most pertinent data points. Since you’ve not present a single of piece of data or evidence, at this point, you’ll excuse me if I take the more logical approach and make my conclusions without your rhetoric.

            “I’m tempted to just leave it at all you claims are false which they are and have zero evidence to support them” — again, considering you’ve not presented a single fact yourself, nor have you made any substantive effort to refute the material presented, you’ll forgive me I laugh may ass off at this statement.

            “even the claims of professional who support such idiocy. “but more than sufficient numbers of history scholars, biblical scholars and textual critics” this is wrong and in correct the majority who are “qualified” and’ educated” in this area of study even religious scholars at l leading theology colleges all across america back up what i said”

            Several flaws in this statement: 1) saying the opposite of my claim doesn’t refute anything. 2) It is logically fallacious
            to poison the well by suggesting that only those scholars who agree with you are both “qualified” and “educated”. It would not be difficult for me to produce a list of dozens of biblical scholars who are both qualified and educated by any standard but the most prejudicial. 3) you’d better be willing to look beyond “america” in your search for qualified scholars. Many of the most well-known scholars in this arena are not from America.

            “no one who wrote the bible was a witness to the claims made and all of them came along years after then events and wrote down a story that up till then had only survived by word of mouth. none of the books of the nt were written by their
            name sake that they are credited to and it is mentioned many time by yes even biblical scholars.” — Prove it. Simple rhetoric doesn’t cut it. You want to debate this issue, I’m all in. But it’s time to provide some substance to your argument.

            “it is common knowledge that is even admitted by religious leaders and teachers. – Which ones? What did they say?

            “This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. Because they are so numerous, they can be
            cross-checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.” Once again wrong and false. there are no original document for the new testament.” – This asinine comment alone is the best indicator that you honestly don’t know a thing about the subject. I suggest you actually READ the article from that site.
            NO ONE suggests there are any ORIGINAL copies of the NT available. ANYONE who knew anything about this subject
            knows this. Just as they would also know that there are no original copies of any of Socrates, Aristotle or anyone else from that era. We have only manuscripts passed down and transcribed over the years. What YOU fail to accept is that there are far more copies and manuscripts for the NT than any ancient document, making reconstruction of the original texts far more viable and yet I doubt you question the authenticity of Iliad or any other ancient document…only the NT. I wonder why. The field of contextual criticism doesn’t need original copies to have a very accurate idea of what the
            original document said.

            A professor of contextual criticism I know regularly performs a simple example of how we can come to find the accurate content of a document we no longer have the original of. He would take ten people from his class every semester and hand the first person an one page document and ask them to transcribe it to another piece of paper. Then they would give that copy to the next person. All the way through the ten
            students. No one had any other copy except the previous student’s copy. When the last one was finished the last five copies ONLY…none of the first five, nor the original…are given to ten other students. Their job to use those last five copies to do their best to replicate the ORIGINAL document. Every semester for 20 years, this professor did this. And in no case did the last ten students get more than 3 words different
            from the original document in reconstructing it from just the last five copies. And they only got 3 words wrong once. In most cases there were zero or one word variances. And this is with STUDENTS of contextual criticism NOT experts. And they had only FIVE copies to work from in reconstructing the
            original document…not 5700 copies (24000 if you count the various translations into other languages).

            THAT is how contextual criticism works. You want to argue against the authenticity and authorship of the NT then
            you’d BETTER have some substance to your argument.

            “sadly my friend where you made error was when you went to a bias source for information and thought you were gonna get factual information. the information to support what i said was equally available and more abundant” —
            PROVIDE IT THEN.

            “but you chose to ignore that and go with your web site of bias that has no creditably.” – Anything either of us provides is
            biased….claiming that they are doesn’t refute the data presented. If you’re going to claim that someone like Matt Slick and CAIM have no credibility without making a substantive argument as to why they have no credibility simply make you appear ignorant.

            “Textual scholar Bart Ehrman writes: “It is true, of course, that the New Testament is abundantly attested in the manuscripts produced through the ages, but most of these manuscripts are many centuries removed from the originals, and none of
            them perfectly accurate. They all contain mistakes – altogether many thousands of mistakes. It is not an easy task to reconstruct the original words of the New Testament..” just as i said none of the bible was written by an eye witness.” — Finally, took you long enough to bring Ehrman into this (yes, I know who he is and have read him…have you? Or did you just glean this quote from a website?). But you need to re-read what you just quoted.

            1) It is abundantly attested in the manuscripts produced through the ages – How does THAT statement affirm your claims that the NT is not authentic? In fact, it could easily say just the opposite of what you claim

            2) “…none of them perfectly accurate. They all contain mistakes…It is not an easy task to reconstruct the original words of the New Testament” — Not easy…definitely not easy. But definitely not impossible…thus the field of contextual criticism. But nothing he says here implies that “not
            easy” = “impossible”

            If you’d like to quote Ehrman, you’d better know what you’re talking about. Ehrman is not presenting any new evidence from which he draws his conclusions. The evidence that every contextual critic uses is all the same. Rarely is there any new evidence produced. Though the most papyri discoveries from the late 1st and early 2nd centuries are significant if they
            prove to be accurate in their dating (which is still being down at this time).

            “the reason “Homer, Socrates, Aristotle, Tacitus, Euripides, Plato and others.” writings are more creditable than the new testament is because their writings came from the hand of those men.” – I suggest you check your facts. If you had actually read that website (http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence), you’d have seen that there are far, far more early manuscripts for the NT than any ancient writing. And this doesn’t even account for the recent findings of seven papyri that have been dated as late first century (1 papyrus) and early 2nd century (6 papyri)…which, if substantiated, would represent about 42% of the entire NT and affirm much. But even without that, there is still far more substantive proof as to the dating, authorship and content of the NT than any other ancient document.

            “none of the nt was written by the original authors and were written by others years after the fact.” – no, silly man, that is NOT fact. It is a conclusion you and few others have made in contrast to the data available from which conclusions could be made.

            The Book of Acts, an historical account of the acts of the apostles post resurrection, makes no mention of either the fall of Jerusalem or the Destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, which surely would have had significant impact on a bunch of Jews. Nor does it mention the deaths of Peter or Paul, also significant events to the early church, had they yet to occur. Most scholars date their deaths about A.D. 60. So that would put Acts before that. And Luke was written by the same author before that. And virtually every biblical scholar suggests Matthew written before Luke and Mark before Matthew. Provide a substantive explanation for this (which btw, is only one of many instances from which dating and authorship are accurately concluded.

            As for the letters from Paul, you can only conclude that if they were NOT written by Paul that there was some conspiracy that afforded someone the opportunity to fraudulently claim to be writing those letters from Paul You’ll have to explain that one in your argument as well.
            Oh darn, you told me too late not to reply. Oh well, I guess you’ll have to respond to this presentation in the same way you reply to every other…with rhetoric.
            Let me know when you’re ready to intellectually humiliate me your brilliant knowledge of this subject.

          • bigpawn01

            i never said i wanted to debate you. and i dont intend to you are lost in your own ignorance and it is confirmed for you by false information. the original statement was “not one book of the new testament was written by an eye witness” this has been proven and is accepted by those with he education and qualifications to say so both religion or not. i’m not gonna argue with you over it you can either accept fact or you can accept falsehood and lie and your choice is not surprising considering you chose religion over reality. and you are free to do that and i am under no obligation to educate you. but what you fail to accept is the nt was not written by an eye witness. and yes even those we have can be proven to be valid actual “copies” but being valid is not the same as being truth or what actually happened. ehh screw it i have already spent more time here than i would like you live in your dream land son i got better things to do than try to bring facts to some one rejects them in favor of fantasy .

          • jmichael39

            “i never said i wanted to debate you.” – We ALL know that you’re not here to debate. And I’m here to expose pathetic little trolls like you as the intellectual frauds that you are. For a person who is supposedly enthralled by the notion of being a rationalist, you’re little more than a fraud…even by your own ‘religion’s’ standards.

            ” “not one book of the new testament was written by an eye witness” this has been proven and is accepted by those with he education and qualifications to say so both religion or not” – YOU HAVEN’T PROVEN ANYTHING. You haven’t even attempted to prove anything. Even the sole quote you shared from Ehrman was completely misrepresented by you. But none of that matters…because you’re not HERE to prove anything. You’re only here to throw out baseless statements. FRAUD!!!
            FRAUD
            FRAUD

            FRAUD
            FRAUD — And guess what, idiot…I’ve PROVEN that accusation.

          • bigpawn01

            “I’ve PROVEN that accusation.” sure you have to yourself and those who share your beliefs but considering what you guys believe it dont take much to convince you of anything you wanna believe.

          • jmichael39

            Have you engaged in a formal debate as I’ve challenged you to? No. Have you, on multiple occasions, presented some lame/cowardly excuse why you won’t? yes. Have you insisted you’re only reason for being on this site is to mock and make fun of Christians? Yes. Have you continued to make baseless and unsubstantiated comments? Yes. Do you continue to refuse to substantiate or prove your statements? Yes.

            I’d say the evidence is pretty clear….you’re an intellectual coward and fraud. I dare you to prove otherwise. Oh wait, you’re not actually here to prove ANYTHING, are you?

          • bigpawn01

            lmao it would take some one with some intelligence to recognize intelligence sorry but you do not qualify.

          • jmichael39

            ah…the old cowards way. I get it. When you can’t engage in an intelligent discussion…cast insults. Typical of a faux-rationalist.

          • pastoredsmith

            I suppose you were there? You are a Bible expert? Most atheists are disgruntled Christians who got hurt by something stupid that someone did or some unrealistic expectation they placed on God, treating Him like He is on display at a circus. At least you agree that human reason and logic are in the gutter….where they belong. Human reasoning without solid foundations to stand on is worthless and changes from person to person. You are not God. You are not your own “god.” You cannot create God (or eliminate) Him by your beliefs. It is your anger that continues to get you in trouble. Let go of your hate!

          • bigpawn01

            “I suppose you were there?” i guess you were? “Most atheists are disgruntled Christians who got hurt by something stupid that someone did or some unrealistic expectation ” false most atheist are former christians who actually read the bible and finally saw it for the obvious load of bs it is. and i guess it is an unrealistic expectation to think that the bible should have some actual facts in it that can be verified outside the bible in the real world. and the rest is incoherent rambling that the person must first hold a belief in some god.

          • bigpawn01

            right like i said a search on the internet or watching a few documentaries will go in great detail explain just what jefferson has said here . you guys dont have facts and reject any that are contrary to what you wanna believe.

          • Bruce Kopetz

            Jeebus “rose again”? I was unaware of multiple occurrences.

          • pastoredsmith

            Once was enough. He arose from the Dead and lives now. You need only to follow Him and He will illuminate your life that is darkened by flawed human reasoning. Let go of your hate. You have no idea how it manipulates you.

          • Bruce Kopetz

            Nice try, Pastor Ed. But you ain’t suckin’ me into your inane Jeezus chat fest like you did Mr. Lebowski.

          • pastoredsmith

            Just did Bruce. Jesus loves you. He died for you. He loves you. It is your hate that is the problem. God will take it all away. You know this to be true or you wouldn’t hate Him so much, and you would have no reason to spout at me. Your anger rises to the top. Let go of your hate. Let the anger die away. You will learn to love your life that you hate right now. Hatred will destroy you.

          • bigpawn01

            insane is the best description i have seen of him yet and is far kinder than any i would give him.

          • bigpawn01

            that is how religion has got such a hold on you it has convinced you that you could not make a logical thought yourself and are there fore forced to rely on it.

          • bigpawn01

            false claims and has been proven false repeatedly. none of the bible characters in the bible actually wrote the books attributed to them and here written in their name many years after the event described. just get in hulu and watch some documentaries or search the web this is common knowledge but you guys reject anything that does not support your delusions so this is pretty much for own benefit.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, it is your illusion of human reasoning that is the problem here. You think that because you reason it to be true, it must be. That line of reasoning is as flawed as your premise that God is not real. You cannot prove His non existence. You have nothing except your man-made concoctions that you came up with.
            I commented on this earlier, but for some reason, it didn’t get here. There is more evidence that God is exactly who He says He is than there that you are alive. History proves it. Creation proves it. Man himself proves it. All of this didn’t just “happen.” As to your assertion that God said, “I refuse to prove that I exist,” that is absurd. The proof of His existence is everywhere. It is your flawed human reasoning that tries to ignore the truth. You cannot win against the truth. Let go of your hatred. You cannot defeat the truth.

          • jmichael39

            HAHAHA…I love reading Jeff’s posts. He actually believes (yes, BELIEVES)…that the entirety of truth is bound by what his five senses can perceive and what his mind can conceive. And you think WE’RE the close-minded ones. LMAO. How funny.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            No I do not – but your beliefs are spectacular and grandiose and unproven (and remain so).

          • jmichael39

            unproven? What do you care about proving anything. I offered you a chance to blow a black hole through Christianity that would suck it into oblivion. To do such a thing WOULD require some semblance of logic, intellect and a willingness to actually substantiate your bloviated posts. So which is it gonna be, Jeff? You gonna just sit there and make asinine posts found in pure hatred and bigotry? or do you actually wanna take a stand for something and back it up with intelligence?

          • bigpawn01

            there is nothing intelligent about Christianity and those who follow christianity lack the ability to recognize intelligence when they see it because they have never had it. bottom line christians are just to stupid to know anything about intelligence.

          • jmichael39

            For someone who decries the intelligence of others, you certainly display a severe lack of ability to present any form of intelligent argument. Wanna try again? Or should we just assume you’re just another in a long line of a pseudo-rationalists who come to sites like to vent you bigotry and hatred for people you don’t like?

          • bigpawn01

            well see that is where you made your mistake. you some how seem to think a statement is an attempt at an “intellectual argument” it was not and is just a fact based statement. “Wanna try again? ” well as i said earlier it was not an attempt at an “intellectual argument” so no i dont wanna try again. but if i was in search of an “intellectual argument” i prefer to argue with those who stand a chance and would be some kind of challenge. people who base their opinions on myth are challenge when compared to fact.
            “Or should we just assume you’re just another in a long line of a pseudo-rationalists who come to sites like to vent you bigotry and hatred for people you don’t like?” you are free to assume anything like christian do a lot of assuming but the thing about assumptions are they are not based on facts other wise they would not be assumptions. And i do not come here to vent bigotry and hatred. i come here to make fun of people who should know better than to believe the childish nonsense they believe. I dont know why but i enjoy it. good day kind sir and happy holidays.

          • jmichael39

            LMAO…fact based statement? Look up the word “rhetoric”… Your posts are FILLED with rhetoric…worthless to any intelligent debate. But here, let’s do this…if it SO easy to defeat a “Christian” in an intelligent debate, let’s do it. You should have NO trouble proving your claims. I’ve already started it with my posts about the historical evidence for the life of Jesus…let’s do that one. Come on, man, stand up and prove yourself.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao anything that challenges your view or disagrees with your opinion is “rhetoric” im not here to debate i here to make fun of people so stupid they believe in talking snakes world floods and a lot of that other fairly tale crap in the bible. the evidence is all over the place and if you can;t accept that it would be stupid of me to assume you would accept it if it came from me. like said im not here to debate im here to ridicule and make fun of stupid people. but before i go let me recommend a few book for you if your god would allow you to read them.the “god delusion” by Richard Dawkins and god is not great how religion poisons everything by Christopher Hitchins. im not her to convert you or educate you. your brain washing is so well done it would be a time consuming laborious task .id rather spend my time reading a “FACTUAL” book and learning a few things myself. if you want an education hire a tutor. until then accept the fact the rest of us think you guys are idiots to be laugh at and made fun of.

          • jmichael39

            “lmao anything that challenges your view or disagrees with your opinion is “rhetoric”” – No moron…’rhetoric’ is throwing around baseless statements without making a single attempt to back them up.. THAT is rhetoric idiot.

            “im not here to debate” – I knew that from the first of yours I saw. And I’m here to expose wannabe rationalists like you. You can call anything you want ‘fact’…but if you don’t make the effort to substantiate your claims that makes you a FRAUD.

            “the evidence is all over the place” – WHAT EVIDENCE? PROVIDE SOME FOR ONCE,.

            Dawkins and Hitchens (can’t even spell his name right, how can we expect read or understood a thing he wrote…LMAO), seriously? And you accuse ME of reading only biased material. Not that it means anything, but here’s my reading list for you. I suspect you won’t read ten words from any of these sources.

            Response to Hitchens – http://www.shenvi.org/Essays/HitchensResponse.htm

            Response to Dawkins –
            http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/the_god_delusion1.html

            Darwin’s Doubt – Stephen Meyer
            http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Doubt-Explosive-Origin-Intelligent/dp/0062071483

            Darwin’s Black Box – Michael Behe
            http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0743290313/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415906873&sr=1-1&keywords=behe

            The Reason for God – Timothy Keller
            http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/1594483493/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415906960&sr=1-12&keywords=christian+apologetics

            From Orality to Orality – James Maxwell
            http://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/1594483493/ref=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415906960&sr=1-12&keywords=christian+apologetics

            Five Sacred Crossings – Craig Hazen
            http://www.amazon.com/Five-Sacred-Crossings-Craig-Hazen/dp/0985402008/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415907248&sr=1-1&keywords=craig+hazen

            Letters to an Atheist – Peter Kreeft
            http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Atheist-Wrestling-Faith-Sheed/dp/1442232714/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415907340&sr=1-3&keywords=peter+kreeft

          • bigpawn01

            it is baseless because you are narrow minded and would not accept anything even if i presented it. you have not exposed anything other than what a big mouth idiot you are. you think anyone who has a different opinion than you is obligated to present evidence and debate with you. and we are not but we can still say you are stupid and have been taken for the sucker you are. from the looks of it you put a real effort into you ignorance im not surprised you would defend it so aggressively but it dont change the fact you have been duped and are to dumb to know it you think because you find stuff to support you belief you are some kind of intellect but that is only in your mind. he is another book for you to read but i know you wont since you seem to think you are smarter than scientist and those who have more education that you. The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain: A Neurologist’s Search for the God Experience
            By: Nelson, Kevin
            i did a copy and paste that time since grammar errors seem to bewilder you. and before you start judge others intelligence based on grammar you might do well to study some of histories greatest minds seems a majority of them did not put much value on grammar. but any who see ya chump next time your praying tell your magical sky daddy i said F.U. and bring that crap on im tired of hearing about it.

          • jmichael39

            Nicholas Coperni

            Sir Francis Bacon

            Johannes Kepler

            Galileo Galilei

            Rene Descartes

            Blaise Pascal

            Isaac Newton

            Robert Boyle

            Michael Faraday

            Gregor Mendel

            William Thomson Kelvin

            Max Planck

            even Albert Einstein believed in a deistic version of God as Creator.

            Arthur Compton

            Ernst Haeckel

            Erwin Schrödinger

            Francis Collins

            Gottfried Leibniz

            Guglielmo Marconi

            James Clerk Maxwell

            John Eccles

            Werner Heisenberg

            William Harvey

            William Thomson Kelvin
            And these are merely the scientific and mathematic minds

            I would compare this list (and add more as needed) to your list of “majority” of the “greatest minds”, except….you’ve provide no list. Hmm….more rhetoric, it seems, from our resident intellectual fraud.
            Oh and BTW…buh bye.

          • bigpawn01

            yet none of them had any evidence of god.

          • jmichael39

            Sure they do. What evidence do you expect them to have?

          • bigpawn01

            some thing that nobody can doubt but dont hold your breath waiting for it.

          • jmichael39

            LMAO…so in other words, you don’t believe ANYTHING unless proof, beyond ANY doubt TO ANYONE, is provided? Is that really what you’re trying to convince us?

          • bigpawn01

            if god was real that should not be a problem.

          • jmichael39

            If you weren’t such a sick human being, you’d be funny. Unfortunately, I just think you’re a sad fake. Billions of people throughout history including many of the most brilliant minds in the history of humanity, have had no problem with believing in the existence of God. YOU seem to be in the minority.

            But you keep trying…before you get yourself banned from this site for your advocacy for violence against Christians.

          • bigpawn01

            actually it is people who believe in beings that are not there that are sick. and billions of people through out history had no choice but to believe. and a lot of those brilliant minds you claim to know of had there doubts and those that did not still failed to provide sufficient proof of any god. the same claims you make of your god are the same other make of their god who is one to believe? and “advocacy for violence against Christians.” is not the same as actually committing violence against christians. i cheer when christians are killed as much as i do when any other religious person meets a similar fate i do so because they seem to be a threat to all of man kind and i feel they need to be eliminated by any means necessary if not forced to convert in order to secure the future of man kind religion is dumb and it is only a crutch for the weak it is totally unnecessary. religion is just a patch to cover insecurities and fears of the unknown. be sure my friend if there is life after death it is not the one in your bible. i think you really already know the truth or you would not defend your beliefs so aggressively i hope that is the case and some day you join the rest of us in the rational world.

          • jmichael39

            I’m not the one trolling a site wishing people who don’t agree with me would be hung.

            You honestly don’t know how to make a logical argument, do you. Oh, right, you’re not here to debate. That becomes clear with every ignorant post you make. You’re just here to hate. Yes, that’s right. I remember now.

            “”advocacy for violence against Christians.” is not the same as actually committing violence against Christians.” – in other words, because you don’t want to sit in the electric chair for doing what you advocate, you’d just rather sit back and cheer those who aren’t chicken____, like you.

            “i cheer when christians are killed as much as i do when any other religious person meets a similar fate i do so because they seem to be a threat to all of man kind and i feel they need to be eliminated by any means necessary if not forced to convert in order to secure the future of man kind” – right…and you’re not a sick human being. It’s difficult to imagine that anyone could have a more disturbing combination of mental illness and cowardice.

          • Eric Marsh

            Yes, without faith, i.e. unsupported belief this god is nothing.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            The minute someones asks for real answers to real questions -POOF- he magically disappears…..and we are told at that point the he is “mysterious”.

          • pastoredsmith

            Creation is not mysterious, but you ignore that part of the discussion. You cannot prove that everything in this complex universe came as a result of “nothing” “creating” everything that is. Didn’t happen that way. My definition of the big bang? God said it, and “bang!” it came into being. Even the scientists now believe the entire universe came into being in a matter of seconds. Imagine that. A scientist proving what we already know. The universe was created! But, your hate won’t let you see the truth. It blinds you to the truth. Let go of your hate. You will then realize how it took you down a garden path to destruction.

          • bigpawn01

            you can not prove that everything in this complex universe came from a god if you could we all would be christians. you seem to hand on to that word hate let me tell you hating you and having a different opinion from you is two different things but i guess this is to be expected of people with little or no education.

          • bigpawn01

            wrong there is none that is why every one on the world is not worshiping the same god if they are worshiping one at all. i simple hello would clear every thing up but you wont get that because there is no god .

          • bigpawn01

            even if the christian god was real i would never bow of my own free will there will be no glory in it.

          • pastoredsmith

            The proof of His existence and that He is exactly who He says He is all around you. His Creation. Even you are proof that He exists. All of this didn’t come from nothing. You are not a result of an explosion at the maternity ward that threw babies into the street. God created you. Sin separated man from God. He has no need to prove anything to a small minded fool who logically tries to deny that He exists. Your anger is showing again. Let go of your hate. You cannot defeat the truth of Christ.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            “Sin” — a fake disease created in order to sell you a fake cure.

            No thanks.

          • pastoredsmith

            OK, so why is it wrong to commit a murder? Not fake. The disease is sin; and we are all born with it. It eats away at our lives like a cancer. But, the cure is genuine. But, you already know that. Human reasoning again. No morality without stealing it from Christianity. If you are right, then it is my ideals against yours anyway, so why do you fight against me? you conflict what you say with every word. Your anger shows again because you are getting despirate. Let go of your hate.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Of course it’s wrong to commit murder.

            But the Christian concept of “Sin” and especially “Original Sin”???

            No proof.

          • jmichael39

            “But the Christian concept of “Sin” and especially “Original Sin”???

            No proof.” – since when do you need proof, let alone a preponderance of evidence to believe something, Jeff?

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I think telling a child that they are infected with “original sin” should come with some sort of proof.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I think telling a child that they are infected with “original sin” should come with some sort of proof.

          • jmichael39

            Who gives a rip what you think, Jeff. Like my posts keep asking, what do you care about proof of anything. You’ve made a whole host of asinine statements, claims and accusations and you’ve never provided an iota of PROOF to back any of them. You’ve had your chance to PROVE that you’re here for something more substantive than merely behaving like an ass and you’ve yet to so a single sign of being anything BUT an ass.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            It is taboo in our society to criticize a persons religious faith…
            these taboos are offensive, deeply unreasonable, but worse than that,
            they are getting people killed. This is really my concern. My concern is
            that our religions, the diversity of our religious doctrines, is going
            to get us killed. I’m worried that our religious discourse- our
            religious beliefs are ultimately incompatible with civilization.

          • jmichael39

            Great, then you should be highly willing to accept the Christianity of Christ, since He was completely about loving a person into a right relationship with His Father. And be more than willing to reject YOUR religion…which is a religion of self and always leads to violence and destruction.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Too many assumptions on your part. I have a father already. Christ was the only person ever to speak of love? I don’t think so….

          • jmichael39

            that was me being sarcastic, Jeff. But frankly, you should be right at home with ‘assumptions’…considering nothing you’ve said is substantiated by a single presentation of facts, you’re living high on nothing BUT assumptions.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            It’s not about whether or not your numerous supernatural claims can be proven. What can be proven is that religious servitude produces it’s share of vanity, hatred, tribalism, psychological damage (to children especially), distrust, rejection of science (and the good that science has done for humanity), considering women to be an inferior creation…..I mean the list of what we can say about religious servitude is practically endless.

            You might want to read a book by Michael Shermer called ‘The Believing Brain’ to get an understanding of why people like yourself, and even some scientists, form beliefs first and then set about reinforcing them as truths. It’s a genetic predisposition that was a part of survival. I’d explain it here but it would require too much text. It’s basically something called ‘paternicity’. The human mind is a pattern recognition machine. This is why people see images in clouds and things like the figure of Jesus in burnt toast and water stains. It’s also why optical illusions work. The mind has a habit of filling in information that doesn’t exist in an effort to complete a picture. This is exactly what people do with belief in a god. Rather than just admitting that something is unknown and that they don’t know the answer and trying to find out, like science tries to do,
            they make up..stuff.

            Got to run. I promised myself that I wouldn’t waste mine or your time anymore here.

            On to Al Jazeera to give the same message to the other guy’s religion and the vanity that stems from it….

            I wish you well.

          • jmichael39

            Your sense of logic…or more accurately, lack of logic…is astounding.

            “What can be proven is that religious servitude produces it’s share of vanity, hatred, tribalism, psychological damage (to children especially), distrust, rejection of science (and the good that science has done for humanity), considering women to be an inferior creation…..I mean the list of what we can say about religious servitude is practically endless.”
            You know WHY its “endless”…because you’re simply accusing ALL religions of those things that perhaps some religious person has done. Its a pure and incurable fallacy of logic. I could literally apply the very same character traits to atheists for the very same reasons you’re using.. However, I won’t, because there is little more than pure insanity involved in thinking that way about ANY group of people.

            The notion of Patternicity literally debunks all of science…if it were true. Because by its very notion, nothing we see where there is any sense of pattern to it is knowably real…nothing in math or science can be known for certain because we can’t know if our penchant for filling in the blanks is real or not. In fact, Patternicity is the god-child of modern philosophy that nothing is real or knowable…the modern skeptic.

            Me, I’m a socratic thinker. But I definitely see now where you’re coming from. You honestly think everything is relative…morality, ethics, truth, everything. Can’t blame you for thinking that way…every true narcissist has thought that way.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Of course you feel outraged and pensive about my criticisms of a belief you are so deeply invested in.

            Not a whole lot I can do to help you with that I’m afraid.

          • jmichael39

            You are truly one of the more self-absorbed people I’ve ever encountered. “Outraged”…”pensive”…dude, you honestly HUMOR me. You have yet to even attempt to substantiate a single claim, accusation or position and you sit there patting yourself on the back for what? absolutely nothing.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Call me self absorbed but I am simply against religion. I think it’s a very bad idea. and again: I
            contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
            you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
            you will understand why I dismiss yours.

          • jmichael39

            And you’re foolish enough to actually think that A-Theism equates to A-Religion? NEWSFLASH: A-Theism is not equal to A-Religion and is still A Religion. You beliefs are just as much your religion as mine is mine. You’re just far more bigoted about my religion than I, personally, am about yours.

          • Bruce Kopetz

            Jefferson–let it go. These cretins have no respect for logical reasoning. They are beyond hope, and unworthy of your intellectual might. I’m logging off this fool’s errand right now.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I will take your advice.

          • bigpawn01

            exactly

          • bigpawn01

            all you said could be said of any god and since there is not one shred of evidence to support it. it had failed as it should.

        • jmichael39

          Oh look Jeff thinks he can repudiate Christianity. Well, here you go, Jeffie… Paul, himself, laid the entirety of Christianity on a string and offered people like you the chance to cut that string if you can. Its as simple as repudiating one of those ‘numerous supernatural claims’. Would you like to give it a shot? You ready to wipe out Christianity and destroy the ‘faith’ of a billion people+ world wide?

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            NO – I am however ready to criticize bad ideas.

          • jmichael39

            yes, of course. So in other words, you have no rational and justifiable reason for your hatred for Christianity. You just don’t like it and thus feel safe in behaving like an ass. Thank you for verifying what most of us already suspected about you.

          • prinefan

            I’d love to wipe religion from the face of the earth so decent people can have back the peace religion has robbed from us-I have a dream.

          • jmichael39

            you want a shot at it prinefan? you think you can repudiate the key element that makes all of Christianity stand? You really wanna give it a shot?

        • James Grimes

          No you’re not. This is a Christian site.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Freedom of speech…

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Freedom of speech…

          • prinefan

            Stop bullying.

          • James Grimes

            You need to report me to the administrators. Tell them a Christian is bullying an Atheist.

      • prinefan

        Wipe all religion from the face of the earth so decent people can have back and enjoy the peace it robbed from us-I have a dream.

        • pastoredsmith

          Your dream is only a farce. It is a pipe dream to rid the world of Christianity. But, if only the false religions of the world, especially the religion of atheism could be wiped from the face of the earth! What a better place this would be. But, God gave us all a choice, so it won’t happen. Whether we serve Him or not. God never forces anyone to believe in Him; you included. But, you enjoy your hatred for God. How can you hate something you claim doesn’t exist? Let go of your hate. It makes you say dumb things. You cannot win against the truth.

    • Stephen_Phelan

      Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah.

      “Being weighed down by a superstitious past, men are afraid of things that can’t, or
      can’t yet, be explained — that is to say, of the unknown. If anyone has needs of a
      metaphysical nature, I can’t satisfy them with the Party’s programme. Time will go by
      until the moment when science can answer all the questions.”

      Adolf Hitler (quoted), Table Talk.

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        Please – Adolf quoted scripture profusely and used it to further his antisemitic agenda.

        You are reaching on this one.

      • pastoredsmith

        Hitler’s logic is exactly my point. Human logic is flawed at the least and heretical at best. If you listen to Hitler, he says that “science can answer all questions.” Right. When pigs fly.

        • prinefan

          He, and the whole German country was Khriztian and hated Atheists too. Just like the Khriztians in ‘Murca do.

          • pastoredsmith

            Your human logic fails miserably once again. Hitler denounced Christianity. The peaceful Germans in Germany were not Nazi unless forced to be. Forced religion, like atheism, destroy the fabric of society. When a group of people together agree to rely on their own human thoughts and fables and create a new religion that denounces the existence of God; then forces it on a society by twisting its laws to suit their own deceptive purposes, either that country will throw off such tyranny and stand up for the truth of Christ or that country will fall. Germany fell because Hitler won. Rome fell because of atheists and homosexuals. America will fall if we don’t come to our senses. You really should examine your hatred and realize how seriously twisted it has made your mind and thought process. Let go of your hate. Nobody forces you to hang on to it.

    • jmichael39

      yep and the time for man to be enslaved by ruling elitists and the religion of self. Way better way to go. WOOHOO!!

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        Plenty of secular charities and scientists working for the good of humanity (no proselytizing strings attached).

        No indoctrination…..just people helping people.

        • jmichael39

          LMAO…plenty of indoctrinating, Jeff…just does bother you when its YOUR religion doing the indoctrinating.

  • prinefan

    the Khriztian god of the buy bull was the original baby killer. Read it.

    • KenS

      Sure, once you tell me where I can find a bull that I can buy and then read, last I knew you could ride a bull, kill and eat a bull, use a bull to do work, but I have never known of a bull you could read, unless you mean to read the ranches branding of the bull, but I know see how that would reference a god that is the original baby killer… (Sarcasm intended)

      • prinefan

        The primitive savages that created imaginary gods claim in the buy bull he ordered them to put whole cities to the sword-babies too. god, what kind of idiots get’s suckered in by the scam of religion. (Pun intended).

        • KenS

          now that I am back, since Satan apparently didn’t like what I was typing, I will try again to finish my comment. The God of the BIBLE, (not buy bull) is not portrayed as a baby killer, He is portrayed as a righteous God, handing out righteous judgment on a deserving people the long overdue judgment that they deserved for their years and years of sin and idolatry and abominations against God. He will do this again in the future during the Great Tribulation as prophesied in Daniel and the book of Revelations of Jesus Christ.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Superstitious nonsense.

            People aren’t buying this garbage any more.

          • KenS

            If you will read the bible, you will see that many of the prophesies have already come about, like 33 fulfilled by Jesus alone, and how about the Temple of Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD just as the bible predicted, and the people of Israel being scattered at that time and then being able to come back to their lands years later which happened in 1948, but go ahead and not believe something that was written down 400 years before it happened in the case of Jesus and the temple and over 2000 years in the case of Israel becoming a nation again.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it.

  • A. Neumann

    “So called separation of church and state”, do you people not read the Constitution?The last time religion ruled he world it was called the Dark Ages.

  • Jefferson_Lebowski

    Of course, the liar often imagines that he does no harm as long as his lies go undetected.

  • prinefan

    The FFRF doesn’t care what religious crackpots and screwballs believe, but we do care if you try to infect and contaminate our Gov’t and schools with imaginary nonsense and the scam of religion. You have gotten away with it up till now, but not any more.

    • Stephen_Phelan

      Right. Just like Jefferson ‘got away with’ the necessary (his word) reference to the Creator as the source of human rights. Just like Washington and Adams insisted that the free republic they were founding required a ‘religious’ people (their term, assuming Christianity ) so that people would use their freedom well. Maybe FFRF could explain to them why they were wrong, or how the Declaration they signed and the Constitution they ratified could be improved with angry, intolerant atheism.

      • Jefferson_Lebowski

        “(their term, assuming Christianity)”

        Stopped reading right there.

        try again….

        • Stephen_Phelan

          Oh I think you stopped reading well before then. Far before, in fact.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            It would be difficult to find a modern day Atheist before Darwin but I will leave you with this:

            “To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”

        • Stephen_Phelan

          Almost forgot… Just curious what you people think Paine was referring to when he wrote of “providence” in Common Sense.

          • prinefan

            “There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, conflict, malignant opposition, war, persecution and all evil in the state as religion. Let it once enter our civil affairs, our Gov’t would soon be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they too would be destroyed”. Wis. Supreme Court Justice-1890 Back and forth we could go forever. We both know what’s coming, the conflict, destruction, and devastation that religion, all thru history has inflicted on our world. I’m not mad, I’m beyond rage about it and I don’t intend to go quietly into that good nite, so let’s just cut the sh-t and be honest about what’s coming. I’m ready and I welcome it. For religion and those who hide behind the scam, it will be “The F’ing they get, for the F’ing they gave”. I intend to do my part to see they get what they so richly deserve. They won’t be dealing with helpless shackled slaves or primitive native Americans either.

          • Stephen_Phelan

            Not exactly science, but it’s quite the rallying cry. And while I know you don’t speak for all atheists, since you’re all, um, independent thinkers… I hope all take note here of the threat of violence toward people of faith. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened. Though we shouldn’t lose sleep over the ruminations of anonymous internet commenters.

            Yes, many people suffered unjustly under religion. Not nearly as many as were killed and subjugated under atheistic communism and socialism during the 20th century, but that doesn’t get religious people off the hook. But systematized atheism was far mor destructive in a far shorter time. So forgive me for not finding your case all that convincing.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            A common fallacy. Have you bothered to count the deaths from before we can count the deaths due to religious warfare? (an impossibility of course – which should be very telling indeed).

            How about the psychological damage (still being perpetrated)?

            More importantly – Communism is not Atheism.

      • prinefan

        Any one can say or write any thing, any time, any where. It means nothing and is not binding on us. Noticed you made no mention of our history full of things they said exactly the opposite or other quotes by many that illuminated the danger of marrying Gov.’t and religion. We won’t put up with it. That’s the bottom line.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          History WILL hold them accountable in the age of reason and science – that they continued with their lies and deceits and hurt the minds of so many (especially children).

          • Stephen_Phelan

            Would you people please read some of your own history? The first triumph of “Reason” was celebrated with the beheading of thiusands of innocents in Paris. The triumph of the “science-based” state led to the slaughter and starvation of tens of millions in Russia. But this time, you insist, Reason and Science will be benign and it will be all puppy dogs and lollipops as soon as you can get rid of those backwards religious people. Just like Lenin.

            Please save us the speeches on the saving power of ideological science., as opposed to actual, humble, empirical science.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Nothing compared to the deaths perpetrated by a “Jealous God” who slaughtered untold Millions (perhaps Billions) through unbelievable judgements for finite crimes.

            READ the Bible.

        • Stephen_Phelan

          Ok, you ignore it because it doesn’t help your case, but then why should anyone take you seriously? Why not make the more accurate, nuanced point rather than look ridiculous in your silly, self righteous purity?

          The founders would have been appalled, and were appalled, by those who said that religion did not belong in the public square. They were not religious like modern evangelicals, but they were certainly not atheists, which is why nothing like the FFRF programme is in the Constitution. They wouldn’t have stood for it. Indeed they insisted on non denominational Christian prayer at official government events and their letters were packed with faith references. You edit all of this out so you can knock down this straw man ‘marriage’ between faith and government. Pathetic.

          • prinefan

            You only take facts from history that support you. Muslims make the same claims about Islam and so do other religions. Those who hide behind the scam of religion will come out long enough to inflict their violence on humanity like they have always done and justify it with some reason. All the chicken sh-t religious screwballs spew is irrelevant. The only thing you need to be aware of is, I won’t put up with it.

          • Stephen_Phelan

            Name calling. How rigorous. Ok, you won’t put up with it. An anonymous commenter, in his courage and angst, just isn’t going to take it anymore. We’ve been warned. Hey, what time is the game on tonight, anyone?

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            One would be hard pressed to find anything remotely like a modern day Atheist before Charles Darwin.

            Be real….you’re reaching now.

  • Zach Paul

    Christianity is on its way out. Someday, we will see Christianity just like we see the Ancient Greek, Roman, and other dead religions. Jesus will sit next to Zeus in the hall of “silly characters that people used to believe in”.

    • Jefferson_Lebowski

      This is a young man that wrote this.

      Christians: look at the future. Embrace it.

      • Stephen_Phelan

        Atheists, look at the 20th century, the century of your ascendance and the systematization of “science” at the level of the state, and the persecution of religion. Look at the most efficient and ruthless dictators of history, almost all atheists. Learn from the past, and Own it.

        What would you do differently this time? You all sound exactly like Lenin, whose primary goal was to destroy the family and all intermediate institutions, leaving only the state and a highly dependent and compliant individual.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          The 20th century was not the time of ascendance. In fact religiosity grew to dominate the world as never before in the latter half of the 20th century.

          The 21st century will see a decline in religiosity world wide.

          I’m not going to own Communism. I don’t worship the state. Or a man or a god.

          That is the future.

          • pastoredsmith

            One day you will wake up and realize that your vein humanity is flawed and your thinking is absolutely worthless. You have the right to be a fool because you are an American. But, God will hold you accountable. Besides, your hatred seethes and burns, but it is not effective. Let go of your hatred before you plunge off the cliff.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            More perverse divinely sanctioned threats of eternal hell fire for daring to ask a question.

            This is the deep dark and open secret of religious servitude. It releases us from our obligations to one another by creating a wall of fear through never ending surveillance, tribal mentality coupled with a superiority complex (or visa-verse).

          • pastoredsmith

            More vein babblings from the fool (Psalms 14:1). You mix everything up as if put in a blender and expect to make sense of it. No perverse divinely sanctioned threats here. You have the choice to avoid it if you choose to. You have the power to accept Christ and not go to hell. And, choosing Christ sets you free. Tribal mentality? That would be human reasoning. It is much closer to tribal mentality than understanding the truth about God. you guys keep making this up as you go. You really should start with true facts instead of dreamed up man-made fables. But, you already know that. It is your anger against God and His people that stokes your hatred. Let go of your hate. It makes you come to idiotic conclusions that are man made and not of consequence.

          • bigpawn01

            wow mister you are really out there aren’t ya?? we try to throw ya a rope but you just wont grab it so we Can pull you in. i certainly hope no children are ever left in the situation you are over them your mind is really screwed up and you need help.

          • bigpawn01

            only an idiot would claim “your own thinking is worthless” and is a prime example why religion poisons everything.

      • Stephen_Phelan

        “This is a young man that wrote this.”

        Yes. Obviously. Maybe when he reads beyond the pop atheists he’ll learn how tired and tried his ideas already are.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          Millennials in particular have had enough of the lies.

          • pastoredsmith

            You are so full of yourself. You really do make this stuff up as you go along, don’t you? Your hatred will fall into the ditch and die. Let go of your hatred before you end up buried under it.

          • prinefan

            They myths of gods and the scams of religions that damages our world so much deserve to be hated, anything disgusting does-and I enjoy it too!:-)

          • pastoredsmith

            Your hate shines like a candle in a dark room. All can see that you enjoy your hatred. Although I agree that myths of gods and religions that damage our world exist, it is not necessary to hate them in order to defeat them, as atheists apparently think. You should let go of your hate rather than enjoy it. It will destroy you. You cannot destroy the truth, no matter how much you hate it. Accept Christ today while you still have time. You are not guaranteed tomorrow.

          • prinefan

            Nothing deserves hatred more than religion and Khriztianity is at the top of my list because only hateful, dishonest, violent people are Khriztians. The scam of religion is the perfect hiding place for them, but we see them. I see them.

          • pastoredsmith

            Now I see your hate. Someone hurt you, right? You prayed and God didn’t answer your prayer the way you thought He should, right? You were influenced by a hypocrite who names the name of Christ but doesn’t actually live it, right? So you blame God and hate His people. That kind of hatred will destroy your soul. It will destroy your mind and cause you to be inept in society. It will destroy your family. And, ultimately, it will destroy you completely. One day, you will be just minutes to death. You won’t feel the same then. Guaranteed. Let go of your hate. It destroys everything in its wake.

          • bigpawn01

            wish we could lynch christians would be a beautiful thing to see

          • bigpawn01

            you say i cant destroy truth? good you some day will understand the truth is there are no gods and there is not one shred of truth in Christ.

          • bigpawn01

            religion on proves how hopelessly stupid a lot of people can be

          • jmichael39

            “religion on proves how hopelessly stupid a lot of people can be” – that’s funny coming from a man who’s very religion is based upon a premise that can NEVER be proved.

          • bigpawn01

            what i can see before my eyes is evidence you have nothing sir just some feeling in your heart and a false perception of what seems to be right i have plenty of evidence to support my disbelief that is some thing the religious will never have. if you ever produce enough evidence every one will convert to christianity but that is not gonna happen because there is nothing in your book that is not fiction.

          • jmichael39

            You have NO evidence. You’re lying, hate-filled bigot. If you could get away with putting a bullet into Christians, you’d do it ceaselessly. You’re a hypocrite and a fraud…

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Please Sir. Go brainwash someone else. I might as well be having a conversation with someone who claims to know the Tooth Fairy or the Travelocity Garden Gnome.

            This is a ridiculous conversation.

          • pastoredsmith

            Getting angry are we? It is your own flawed human logic that fails in this discussion, sir. I pray that you let go of your hatred before it completely destroys you. Apparently, your hatred has a firm grip on you even now. Let go of your hate. It distorts your sight and destroys your life. And, you cannot reason your way out of the truth.

          • bigpawn01

            christianity: 2000 years of making it up as we go

          • jmichael39

            I certainly wish that were true, JL…unfortunately they keep buying into your atheist BS.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Stock answer: I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

          • jmichael39

            Believing in NO God is like intellectual suicide. You live your life based upon a negative belief. What an idiot.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Prove he exists beyond a shadow of a doubt or expect thinking people to continue to doubt his existence.

          • jmichael39

            More than sufficient number of very intelligent people have viewed the evidence for the existence of God to choose to believe. Thus, your argument is moot. You either have to admit that these highly intelligent people have justifiable reason for their belief (and you just happen to choose not to care) or you have to refute the intelligence of everyone of those people…or you have to prove none of them actually believe in the existence of God.

            Even Albert Einstein was, at the very least, a deist who believe the complex nature of universe could only be explained by the existence of a Creator. He chose not to believe that that same God could or would engage in human activities…but that’s another issue.

            Here’s the crux of the matter…hundreds of millions/billions of human beings over time have evaluated the evidence of the universe around them and concluded that there must exist a supernatural being who is the creator/designer of this universe. Have they reviewed ALL the evidence available to us? No. No one has or even could. They have reviewed the evidence they accessed and made their conclusions. You have evaluated the evidence of the universe and chose NOT to believe in the existence of a Creator/Designer.

            The simplicity of accepting the existence of a Creator/Designer is pretty basic.
            Major Premise – Where there is design, there is a designer. If you accept that premise, more to the Minor Premise. If not, explain why you reject that premise.
            Minor Premise – There is clear and irrefutable evidence of design and order throughout the universe. If you reject that premise, then explain why and how you account for what numerous people see as order and design in the universe.

            If you accept this premise as well, then there is only one conclusion…there is a designer/orderer to the universe. What the designer is, would be the next…far more complex…discussion.
            But at the very least you could not reject the notion that some would choose to identify that ‘designer’ as God.
            Your turn…prove to us that you’re not just here to behave like an ass.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Religion feeds the ego like no the device in the history of humanity. No need to believe when it’s readily apparent what religion is: An institution designed to put power and wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many. By appealing to humans desire to live forever (we all have a primordial fear of non-existence) we do a great disservice to ourselves.

            The truth is in the search for it.

            And let’s remember that the ego isn’t how we see ourselves but how we want others to see us.

            I’ll save the unanswered questions —the BIG questions (that may never be answered) for the religious fanatics and the philosophers.

            It is the EFFECT that should be judged…..we can actually see and quantify the results.

            Everything else is guess work and boring….and irrelevant.

          • jmichael39

            “Religion feeds the ego like no device in the history of humanity.” – Pure rhetoric and completely unprovable.

            “No need to believe when it’s readily apparent what religion is” – Sorry, “apparent” doesn’t cut it. A billion people would utterly disagree with you on what is “apparent”. You want to be taken seriously, you’ll have to present a case. Which, of course, you could NEVER do for “all” religion.

            “The truth is in the search for it.” – more meaningless rhetoric.

            “The vast majority of believers were never given the opportunity to evaluate these beliefs.” – more rhetoric…you couldn’t POSSIBLY speak to what the “vast majority” of anything is. It is beyond the scope what anyone, including you, could ever know.

            As I suspected would happen when challenging you to engage in an intelligent debate…nothing but rhetoric….no substance whatsoever. Try again. On second thought, give it up. You clearly don’t have 1/2 the intellectual depth you think you have.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            You are invested in your beliefs. I understand.

          • jmichael39

            sure you understand…you’re invested in yours as well.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I love this time of year! Can’t wait to put up my Yule Tide tree…

            I also can’t wait for the day when the three Abrahamic Mono-Theistic Faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are on the fiction shelf next to Greek mythology.

          • jmichael39

            As I suspected…a brain dead wannabe intellectual…a poser and fraud who pretends to be a rationalist but who couldn’t debate his way out of a paper bag. Yours is an empty world of denial and self-absorbed rhetoric. Yet another troll exposed and laid to rest. Time to make up a new ID, JL…this ID is exposed and wasted.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Yeah you keep saying that over and over again but you still haven’t provided a sound argument for why your religion is the one true religion. Expect the criticism to continue and increase over time. You will soon grow tired of the nay Sayers.

          • jmichael39

            You want the challenge, JL…You want a chance to bury Christianity? The entirety of Christianity rests upon the resurrection of Jesus. You wanna bury Christianity? Refute Christianity’s claim of a risen Jesus. Paul even said it in I Corinthians 15

            1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

            3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

            9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

            12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

            Even Paul acknowledges that all of the Christian faith rests upon Christ’s resurrection. You prepared to look at the evidence for the resurrection and refute the conclusion that Christ did rise from the dead?

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Superstitious Nonsense.

          • jmichael39

            prove it!! Or are you just a bunch of hot air like all the other so-called rationalists who come to this site to troll?

          • jmichael39

            You don’t like the gospel message? Don’t come to a site like this and you won’t have to hear it.

      • pastoredsmith

        “I am the same yesterday, today and forever.” The God of the universe said that. He never changes. Your hatred makes you become a bully and to attempt to intimidate others. It does not bode well for you. Let go of your hate.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          Let go of humanity – allow them to think for themselves. Starting with yourself.

          • pastoredsmith

            Thinking for themselves is the problem, dear hating friend. It is you who hate Christians and the God we serve. It is you who think you can reason your way into your own destiny; you think you are the captain of your own vessel. The time will come when you will sail into a terrible storm alone and perish because of your hatred. Let go of your hatred. It is more powerful than all the human reasoning combined.

          • prinefan

            Gods and religions, quit harming our world and we won’t dislike you.

          • pastoredsmith

            Jesus outshines all the fakes. Atheist religion is the most dangerous, and yet, I don’t hate you. Your hate continues to give you away. Let go of your hate!

          • bigpawn01

            you make no claims any other religion has made and have no more evidence to support your claim any of the others. why? because all religions are fake. get this through you thick brain washed skull atheism is not a religion and every attempt to drag it down to the level of religions fails miserably making you look like a fool. but it is nothing new for people like you to believe your own nonsense no matter how ridiculous it is.

          • jmichael39

            More BS, BP? What other religions have their leader raised from the dead? Maybe you’re referring to Apolloneus, or Antinous or perhaps Rabbi Judah in the 3rd Century AD…or Kabir in the 16th century. or Sabbatai Sevi in the 17th Century…or maybe somebody else. Please, do tell us, BP….I REALLY wanna see you argue this one.

          • bigpawn01

            not here to argue just state the facts. your religious claims are just the same as any others religion and your magic man did not raise from the dead and it has never been proven because in the real world when you die your dead.

          • jmichael39

            You’re so full of ____. You don’t have two facts you can rub together. You’re a hate-filled, vile, intellectual fraud and bigot.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Release humanity from the chains you so love.

          • pastoredsmith

            Yes, let God release all of humanity from its shackles of sin and become free in Christ. let go the chains of religion. Let go of your hate. You will learn the meaning of “peace that passes understanding.”

          • Chrissy Vee

            “Humanity” is bound by its own sin and debauchery. We so love you enough to tell you. The TRUTH will set you free. Seek it. Find it. Live it. Peace.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            “Sin” is a concept that cannot be proved…..but I know you don’t “believe” that.

            Good luck and do no harm (especially to children).

          • Chrissy Vee

            You must know when people “sin” against you Jefferson. Sin causes harm to people. God is perfect in His wisdom and teaching us this truth. To say their is no sin is a great lie.
            I wish no harm on anybody. If truth harms people, it is their pride only. To think even for a moment that I would harm children because I believe in Jesus shows your lack of wisdom and understanding of who He is and who His followers are.

          • bigpawn01

            you are living proof god if he were to exist is not perfect. and yes you are harming children telling them that god awful pack of lies you guys believe children are just fine and are not born evil and dont need your god to make up for where they come short.

          • Chrissy Vee

            Haha I just realized I called you Jefferson…. before I got a good look at your pic. Oh well, whoever you are… Peace ♥

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          Let go of humanity – allow them to think for themselves. Starting with yourself.

      • Chrissy Vee

        We know the future and I have to tell you…it’s not looking so good for you. Be careful what you choose to embrace.

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          you don’t know the future…..that is the point.

          But I appreciate the veiled (or not so veiled) threat.

          I wish you well.

          • Chrissy Vee

            We are watching God’s Word unfold before our very eyes straight from the pages. We DO know what the future holds, for believers and non believers. That is one of the wonderful things about the Lord. ♥
            Telling you to be careful of what you choose to embrace was certainly not a threat. It was wisdom, and I hope someday you will see.
            I wish you well too. Peace.

          • jmichael39

            On the contrary…I’d trust what the Bible says about the future.
            After all, the number of prophesies that Jesus’ First Coming fulfilled is as much of a statistical impossibility as anything in human history…by far. Yet…he seemed to have fulfilled them rather nicely…even the ones he had literally no control over…like where he would be born, or the manner in which he died (which hadn’t even remotely been invented yet)…and many, many more.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            “Prophecies Fulfilled”??? —-superstitious nonsense.

          • jennylynn

            The Bible is filled with specific predictive prophecies that have been literally fulfilled. 27% of the entire Bible contains predictive prophecy, which is true of no other book in the world, and is a sure sign of its divine origin. By ignoring the facts you will not be excused from the judgements or accountability to it, since you have been warned. Everyone has access to the Bible. What you do with what God has given you is up to you though. You have to make a choice. If I said I didn’t believe in trucks and walked out on the freeway, it would not eliminate the reality Of death shortly after.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Go to evilbible.com and you will see that most of those so called “prophecies” haven’t been and were never fulfilled.

            It’s all superstitious nonsense. SCIENCE is the only honest approach to life’s big questions. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

            A good king inspires loyalty. An evil tyrant demands blind obedience. A
            good king allows those who do not want to serve him leave in peace. An evil tyrant kills and tortures those who will not be slaves.

            This is why I could never be christian. Your God is immoral.

          • jennylynn

            Jefferson, It is interesting that people who don’t read the Bible or who hate God would use a website like this. After reading through all his grievances against God I am not surprised by your faulty conclusions. First of all he continually practices eisegesis and not exegesis. He takes passages out of context and fails to understand dual prophehcies. Atheist love to paint God as a monster and in doing so they think they will somehow excuse their sin by blaming God. Furhemore if you don’t believe in God then there is no right or wrong and who are you to judge a God you don’t believe in since you have no morality to base your facts on. Morality comes from a law giver which you don’t acknowlege so how do you definen right from wrong? The reason you can so quickly fault God for wiping out multitudes of people is that people have a subjective definition of what is “good.” For example, we define “good” perhaps as helping some old lady across the street. Someone watching us do such a task is impressed with our servanthood and gives us praise. However, we don’t see the big picture. If we knew that sweet old lady whom we just helped across the street to slip cyanide in everyones cup at the corner coffee shop, we hopefully would not have helped her carry out her task. Or if you think it’s good to give a stranger a ride and then find out he is going to rob the place where you drove him to, would you still think it was a good thing to do? Therefore who are you do judge God or even define what is right or wrong if you don’t have a definition of right and wrong being an atheist. Rather what you could say is what God did was not your preference, but even then how can you make a judgement since you are not omniscient to know whether destroying a people group was the correct action based on all the information. Therefore God alone has the right to define what is good and moral. With God seeing the whole picture, He never makes a mistake. There is no hindsight with God. EVERYTHING God does is motivated by His nature; His goodness,, His justice, His holiness. And that is why God can kill an individual or a group of people like the Amalekites, and it can be a good thing, in fact the best thing by a holy God’s standards. Rather than standing in judgement over God, when we have all the information, we discover that God is justified in kiling not only the Amalekites, but all of us. We are all sentenced to die because we have broken God’s’ holy law a multitude of times. But God in His LOVE, paid the penalty for our sin so we wouldn’t have to die. John 3:16

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            Superstitious Nonsense.

          • jmichael39

            Well, now THERE’S an intelligent response. Why am I not surprised that a guy who sits around a site dedicated to people who believe is something he doesn’t can’t even engage in an intelligent debate about that negative belief.

            You’re not much of a contextual critic, are you? Probably don’t even know what that means, huh? Should have guessed that you’re just another intellectual fraud.

          • Jefferson_Lebowski

            I don’t sit around a site. You responded to a post I left ages ago….

    • James Grimes

      Oh really, says you. Your upbringing lacked the ethical fiber that would have made you someone that we could have looked up to. Instead, you are a loud clanging gong with no meaning. You need to disappear for awhile and do some growing up.

    • janmit63

      Why are you trolling this page? And Christianity is growing faster than you realize.

      • prinefan

        Among primitive, impoverished, uneducated, superstitious populations. They’ll figure out it’s all bullsh-t soon enough, just like a lot of the world has.

        • pastoredsmith

          No, the actual answer as to why atheists troll Christian pages is that they wish to bully and intimidate their way into causing the Christians in America to be silent. It will backfire.

          • prinefan

            Khriztians don’t like the taste of their own medicine?

          • pastoredsmith

            True Christians tell the truth. Your human reasoned lies are nothing more than a farce. Your truth is not the same as someone else’s, according to your own religious doctrine. But, your hate keeps you in the mode of name calling and slander. Let go of your hate. It only drives you insane.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao man this guy is really twisted. if i met some one like him in real life i would have already punched him a few times. what a weirdo. talks about truth but claims the total lie of christianity is the way. this guy is a sicko. i do hope no children are ever left in his care no telling what kind of crap he would twist their minds with.

          • bigpawn01

            exactly!!! it is ok to put that religious crap in every area of our lives they can but when others do the same it is a whole different story

        • janmit63

          Nope right here in the good old USA. And 1 day you will realize we are telling you the truth. So go troll else where.

      • bigpawn01

        well actually if you were not blind you would see christianity is not really growing but rather shrinking but dont let reality get in your way keep on living in your dream world.

        • janmit63

          Oh no it’s not you are just too brainwashed to see the truth, I live in reality. And why are you trolling a Christian page.

          • bigpawn01

            you are full of it !!the information to back that claim is every where and you just chose to ignore it. why am i trolling a christian page? because i can and you can’t stop me. this is not a christians only club.

          • janmit63

            Your in formation is so full of holes if it was a bucket you could not fill it. Get a life & stop being a troll

          • bigpawn01

            F U i love trolling and making fun of dummies like you

          • janmit63

            ROFL oh please you are the real dummy. If Christianity is really falling as you claim then why did so many of us vote in more Godly people in this election. Face it people are getting fed up with jackass’s like you & are demanding change.

          • bigpawn01

            you a free to believe what ever you like my friend but know belief has never changed reality.

          • janmit63

            Oh I don’t believe I know what the real reality is. Go back to lala land.

          • bigpawn01

            there is nothing in reality that supports the existence of any god or we would all be christians. you live in fantasy that is only real to you and your peers.

          • janmit63

            Oh but there is a lot of things that supports the existence of God all you have to do is look around you God’s handywork is everywhere. Nope I live in reality & 1 day you will realize every thing we have said is true, but it will be too late for you.

          • bigpawn01

            i am certain of my position and i am not the lest bit worried about you sky daddy. even if he was real id never willing bow to him and i would rather burn forever than give him praise.

          • janmit63

            I feel sorry for you because you would rather live in hell then in paradise.SHM

          • bigpawn01

            now you got it. if praising your evil god is the only way to “paradise” i will just do without it.

          • janmit63

            God is not evil. You people crack me up trying to claim God is evil. Man is evil, but i thank God we have a God who can & does combat evil.

    • pastoredsmith

      You are a dreamer and disillusioned. The difference between Christianity and the other false religions of the world is that God is alive and well. Not in a tomb, but risen from the dead. Go ahead. Laugh, scoff. You will realize one day how foolish you have been today. “The purest water is that which bursts crystal clear into the sunlight after it has fought its way through solid rock….there have been charlatans…but God has always had a people. Men who were beyond purchase and women who could not be bought. God has always had a people….” Get used to it, Christianity is here to stay. The truth always rises to the top. Especially when it is forced underground. Let go of your hatred of God and His people. It causes you to be erratic in your “predictions.”

      • prinefan

        Religion is the only promoter of hatred.

        • pastoredsmith

          I agree. The religion of Atheism is at the top of that list. And, since Christianity is not a religion, you can readily see that we do not promote hate. But, you already know this. Your hatred causes you to hurl insults. Let go of your hatred and accept Christ. You will be able to see the truth and the truth will set you free from the lies you are wallowing in.

          • Guest

            Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

            Christianity isn’t a religion? How exactly?

          • pastoredsmith

            Religion touts a false god. Atheist religion touts no god. Fools think He doesn’t exist (Psalms 14:1). Christianity is truth. Jesus Christ arose from the dead. Truth is truth. Religion is something else. But, you know that. Are you one of the atheist hecklers already here logged in as a guest or someone else, if I may ask. If you are someone else, I amazed how you guys use the same lame talking points.

          • bigpawn01

            sorry to break it to you but no one has ever lived after they dies that just some Cinderella fairly tale crap.

          • pastoredsmith

            Sorry to break it to YOU, but you are totally wrong. You will change your tune when you are on your death bed; if you have the chance that is. No fairy tales in the Bible, only in your head.

          • bigpawn01

            i hope i have a death bed i have heard that lie over and over. if i was on my death bed and i was afraid why would I try to find comfort in something i know is a lie? you makka no sense pastorasmith.(and yes the mis spelling is intentional)

          • pastoredsmith

            That one is easy. It is because you know down in your heart that I’m telling the truth and that you’ve been duped by lies. I need not belabor the point. You will get it soon enough.

          • bigpawn01

            this is what i know in my heart the entire bible is a lie and wrork of fiction. no world floods no talking snakes no anything.

          • pastoredsmith

            Sure. And, pigs can fly. You are so filled with hatred for God that it crowds out anything having to do with Him. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be searching for answers by debating with a Christian on a Christian News site. And, because you disbelieve them doesn’t make them not true. It only shows your ignorance or obstinance, whichever applies.

          • bigpawn01

            it was through a loss of ignorance that i became an atheist. im not searching for answers i am giving alternative answers to those who think they already have them.

          • pastoredsmith

            Blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard all that garbage before. You hate God, you set out to disprove Him, and all you have is the incoherent babbling of some human mind that concocted fairy tales about their “theories” as to how the universe began and how man evolved from pond scum. It takes more “faith” to believe that all came from nothing and there is no God than to believe the truth. May I suggest you let go of your hatred? It makes you look really stupid and ignorant.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao rejection of fiction is not hatred my friend and you think it is hatred only because you feel threatened by what i say because you know what i say is based on real science. the amount of faith i need to know science knows what it taking about is about the same amount of faith that is required to know 2+2=4

          • pastoredsmith

            You say that 2+2=4, but you also say that everything in the universe came from nothing. “In the beginning, nothing created all that is by way of a large explosion caused by billions of years of friction caused by particles of dust rubbing together that just happened to be in existence causing intelligent mankind to be formed from the nothingness of chaos.”
            And, you think you have any answers that are credible?
            No, my mixed up friend. Your hatred shows by your deliberate attempts to disprove the God that you know exists and Created everything that is. Including you. And, He loves you enough to die for you….and He lives today if you will only give up your man-made fantasies and follow Him. Then and only then can you ever hope to find true freedom and hope for your future beyond the grave. Otherwise, you will cower before the same God of the universe and give account as to why you refused to believe on Him. I speak truth. You try to refute it with man-made fairy tales. The fiction here is in your head, atheist.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao!! you are something aren’t ya? hey if you don’t like the theories of it coming from nothing there are other options. everything could have always been then there are some more if you wanna lok at them. but i know you don’t you are not here to consider anything just defend what you believe. have your beliefs but don’t get upset when others dont share your belief in nonsense and make fun of you for believe some so preposterous. no one that loves me would threaten me with death and eternal damnation that alone says a lot about you imaginary god. the bible and christianity is fiction and it will remain fiction no matter how real it seems to you.

          • pastoredsmith

            You really are stuck on yourself and your “intellect,” aren’t you? First, I didn’t threaten you with anything. Second, God didn’t threaten you either. You chose it when you rejected Him. A choice is not forced coercion. Atheism wants to force everyone in America to believe it. I have every right to believe in God and to practice my beliefs in public. And, it is your atheism that is preposterous. Fiction is trying to imagine how everything came into being rather than believe and understand the truth that God did it. Always been? Right. And, that is why man is born and dies. Because he has always been? Again, your hatred of God and His people make you look stupid. Keep holding on to your airhead beliefs and they will utterly destroy you. Death is real. You cannot deny that. You cannot prove that eternal Heaven or Hell is not real by imagining it away. God said it, that makes it true, whether you believe it or not. You will discover that your air-headed ideas were a farce some day. I pray it is in time for you to do something about it.

          • bigpawn01

            do as a say or die is not a choice smart guy.

          • pastoredsmith

            Real bright, atheist. You think you will never die? Or, you think that when you die, that is the end and it’s all over, right? Again, I say, real bright, atheist. Accept Christ and live. Continue in the foolish human fairy tales of atheism and die eternally. Those are the choices. I didn’t make it up like you did.

          • bigpawn01

            but you are so dang stupid !!and it is a good thing i never meet any one this stupid on the regular bias in real life because would have already punched you in the face. saying the same thing that i just rebutted does not make what you said in the first place any truer than it was the first time you said it. look you poor idiot there is not such thing as a choice is one of the choice will resort in eternal damnation and death in hell. I think i have just found the missing link here. jebus h chirst you are dumb.

          • pastoredsmith

            Name calling gets you nowhere, atheist. And, your synopsis of my abilities is sadly lacking because you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. You think that because you disbelieve in God that you and your ilk should hate Christians, sue schools who dare to allow the freedom of religious expression in public, sue businesses that are distinctively Christian and practice their religion in the marketplace and to generally be a bully. You hate Christians and love to mock and criticize that which you declare not to be true, yet down deep, you know the truth and that I’m telling the truth. It is your hatred that keeps you all in our faces and it is that same foolish behavior that will be your undoing in the end. Too bad you flunked English and Spelling. Maybe you should try the education thing again. Your hatred makes you look extremely stupid. Let go of your hate. You will live a better life and not be such a mocker and look so stupid because of it. BTW. Heaven and Hell are real. It is your imagination that says otherwise.

          • bigpawn01

            my eyes do not see heaven or hell it is your imagination that created them. and yes my grammar is lacking but i make up for it in spades in other area’s of study and i am able to get my point across with anyone who can not be derailed by a misplaced comma or the absence of a period. religious expression is welcome in public but not on my dime if you are a government employee.”sue schools who dare to allow the freedom of religious” once again not on my dime my tax dollars are not to be spent brain washing your next generation of followers. separation of state and religion says we can not condone any one religion over another. “sue businesses that are distinctively Christian and practice their religion in the marketplace” if you open a public business you are required to obey the laws regardless of your religious beliefs if you can not live by this open a private club or organization but you can not open public business and turn people away based on your religious beliefs. “generally be a bully.” that would describe Christianity thinking since they are the majority they can break laws meant to protect minorities. if you dont like the laws in our nation i dont know what to tell you because we seem to be the last to accept change it is only gonna get worse for christian privilege. “You hate Christians and love to mock and criticize” well ok i’ll give that one it is true i enjoy making fun of dumb people who should know better.”down deep, you know the truth and that I’m telling the truth” wrong i know the truth as i can see it with my own eyes and your truth is truth only to you and has no bearing on the real world .your truth is a lie. “It is your hatred that keeps you all in our faces ” i hate your bigotry and attempt to control society based on your version of an ancient god i am in your face to make you see the foolishness of what you are doing.

          • pastoredsmith

            In light of your stupidity and continued hatred of me and everything I stand for and live for, this conversation is futile. The Bible calls you a fool (Psalms 14:1) because you refuse to believe in the obvious truth that God exists. Listening to your babble and man-made imaginary fairy tales that cause you to hate anyone who dares disagree with you proves the Bible is correct. As to your hatred of me and others who are Christian, this is America and you can do that. But, you cannot stop us from proclaiming our faith publicly and in public (even government) places. Your efforts to convert all public arenas into “atheist zones” (no God) will ultimately fail. Your fruitless religion of atheism will one day be crushed into dust when the light of the truth comes out. So, go ahead with your hate. It makes you look like a fool. And, ultimately it will cause you to lose your soul for eternity. This conversation is concluded. Have a nice day.

          • bigpawn01

            “Atheism wants to force everyone in America to believe it. ” false atheist want christians to mind their own business and worship god on their own dine in their homes and their churches and to stop trying to force us to live by your gods rules. if christians would stfu mind their own business and let others live how they see fit they would find no one really cares what they believe. “Fiction is trying to imagine how everything came into being rather than believe and understand the truth that God did it.” false fiction is believing in crap that is not real it is a belief in fantasy. you god is work of fiction and you live in a fantasy where he is real but n one of that changes reality. “NO ONE” knows for a fact how every thing came to be but we have clues and evidence that can lead us to conclusions and there is more than just one. if from nothing is unacceptable for you pick another but let it be one that has evidence to support it which belief that god did it all has none..nope not even a possibility.”your hatred of God and His people make you look stupid.” false your god would have to be real for me to hate him and my hatred of “his people” is directly linked to their inability to stfu and stay out of our personal lives and try to force their belief on others . and my hatred is not so much hatred as it is just you perceive my rejection of your beliefs as hatred and you see my mockery of your beliefs as hatred.”Keep holding on to your airhead beliefs and they will utterly destroy you. ” keep holding on to yours and it may destroy us all. and calling others an air head when you believe in talking snakes and world wide floods and other nonsense is classic stupidity that carries no weight.”Death is real.” really?? say it aint so. of course it is real you idiot but just because we die does not mean there is a god nor does it mean there is and after life and if there is an after life it does not mean the christian god is real if the christian god is all we got after death then we are really in a pitiful and sad world.”You cannot prove that eternal Heaven or Hell is not real by imagining it away.” lmao you can not prove they are real just by believing there is one or just by the words of an out dated book written by bronze age goat herders who did not even know the earth circles the sun. you are the one making the claim the burden of proof is on you first but i really dont care because all it is is some more if your fantasy nonsense. i can prove all that crap is wrong the same way you could prove me wrong if i told you there are unicorns on your front lawn. it is really that easy.”God said it, that makes it true, whether you believe it or not. ” makes it true for you in the real world god has no been proven and can not have said anything since he don’t exist but like i have said before if he makes himself known by some undeniable evidence we all will be christians but that is not gonna happen.”You will discover that your air-headed ideas were a farce some day. ” you will discover your beliefs are nonsense one day and i hope it is before you waste your entire life being stupid wasting opportunities in hopes of a better after life. ehh i think that covers it all thank you and have a nice day amigo.

          • bigpawn01

            “You really are stuck on yourself and your “intellect,” aren’t you? ” relying on my reasoning based on evidence and not being persuaded into nonsense is not being stuck on my self if it is then ok id rather be stuck on my self and be ground in reality than stuck in a fantasy

          • pastoredsmith

            Blah, blah, blah. I’ve heard all that garbage before. You hate God, you set out to disprove Him, and all you have is the incoherent babbling of some human mind that concocted fairy tales about their “theories” as to how the universe began and how man evolved from pond scum. It takes more “faith” to believe that all came from nothing and there is no God than to believe the truth. May I suggest you let go of your hatred? It makes you look really stupid and ignorant.

          • Chrissy Vee

            Insanity: fighting, debating, speaking, using media, filing lawsuits…etc. against something one doesn’t believe exists.

          • bigpawn01

            thanks i was just wondering the same thing. christianity is a religion atheism is the lack of religion funny how they try to switch the two around.

          • James Grimes

            You are correct, Pastor Ed. I have seen more hatred among Atheists against Christianity in this country than among any other group who were against someone/something. They are truly a group of haters.

    • Chrissy Vee

      This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.2Timothy 3:3-9
      Yes, this is definitely the generation God warned us about in the Bible. Thank you Jesus! o/ ♥

    • jmichael39

      You’re starting to sound like Voltaire – “I am wearied of hearing it repeated, that twelve men were sufficient to establish Christianity, and I wish to prove that it needs but one to destroy it!”

      But by the early 19th century, the very home where he done much of his writings, had “been converted into a sort of Repository for Bibles and Religious Tracts”

      OR
      Edward Gibbon, who often blamed the fall of the Roman Empire on Christianity and was a harsh critic of the Bible. After his death, the person who lived in his former home in Switzerland was, according to some accounts, “bestows a vast sum annually in the promulgation of the Sacred Record.”

      OR
      David Hume, another antagonist of Christianity, who’s very death bed room was later the meeting place of the first gathering of the Auxiliary Bible Society in Scotland.

      In other words, I would be careful about making boasts like that. But that’s just me.

      BTW, you do know how to actually destroy Christianity, right? Paul laid all of Christianity on a thread and essentially offered it up to people like you to cut that thread…if you can. You up to a challenge?

  • Bruce Kopetz

    Excuse me bartender, but I think it’s time to cut McConkey off. He’s had just a l-e-e-e-tle bit too much Jeezus Juice.

  • Wayne Robert Smith

    http://www.AtheismParty.com Human babies are not sacred. Overpopulation is largely caused by property developers, religious zealots and greedy politicians ignoring the reality of limited resources. Religion is finally dying. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

  • prinefan

    Religion is closely tied to the spread of ebola by “faith healers” who told people they should depend on god to heal them, and female genital mutilation, and lot’s of other lovely things. gods and religions are the greatest crimes ever committed against humanity. Their guilt is overwhelming and they have a lot to answer for, and they are now going to be held accountable for all the damage they have done and do to our world. Of course we are angry at religion (I’m beyond rage), we have every right to be.

  • Thomas Van Cleave

    I am no atheist, but I do believe in having freedom from religion. Look around the world and see how many countries do not have that freedom. I keep seeing how others persecuted and slaughtered just for being christian or whatever. That is why this country was founded. A person’s belief or disbelief in god is personal and not to be infringed upon. In the United States you cannot legally impose your religion on another nor should you. Although I do see that it has not stopped many groups from saying if you’re not on your knees constantly and in church on Sunday you are breaking God’s Law. I may not be well versed on the Bible, but where does it say I have to do either? Praise the Lord and be good to each other is what I remember from church.

  • jennylynn

    This is not a surprise to Christians. Jesus prophesied tho would take place.
    Matthew 24:9-14
    9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    • Jefferson_Lebowski

      Superstitious Nonsense.

      • jennylynn

        Prove it!

        • Jefferson_Lebowski

          I don’t have to. YOU have to prove that it isn’t (I’m not making the supernatural claim).

          Anyway; religion is just an extension of the human ego and nothing more.

  • Jim

    Of course they are so closely tied. They are under assault by the same religion! DERP!