Profane ‘Godmother of Punk’ to Perform at Vatican Christmas Concert

Smith Credit Beni KohlerROME — Questions have been raised surrounding the announcement that the “godmother of punk” who once sang the lyrics, “Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but not mine,” will be performing at the Vatican Christmas concert next month.

Patti Smith, now 67, is among 18 other artists scheduled to play at the Conciliation Auditorium on Dec. 13 during the Vatican’s annual Concerto di Natale. According to reports, she had been personally invited by the Pontiff, known as Francis, after meeting him at St. Peter’s Square last year. She recently told reporters about the invite, “I like Pope Francis and I’m happy to sing for him.”

Some have applauded the invitation, stating that references to religion can be seen throughout her music.

“The person who did this really understood how Catholic imagery and atmosphere is woven into Patti Smith’s work; and the life or death urgency her work represents—it’s about salvation and redemption,” wrote Anthony DeCurtis of Rolling Stone.

But others have expressed concern over the content of one of her songs from nearly 40 years ago, as she sang, “Jesus died for somebody’s sins, but not mine. My sins my own; they belong to me.” The committee Portosalvo called for a rock star to be banned from performing at a local church in Naples, stating that bringing rock music into a “consecrated” building would be “blasphemy.”

On Tuesday, Smith was asked about the controversy during a press conference at the Museum of The Moving Image in New York.

“Anyone who would confine me to a line from 20 years ago is a fool!” she said. “I’m not playing to the pope. He may not even be there. But I expect there’ll be a bunch of cardinals… It’s a Christmas concert for the people, and it’s being televised.”

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Smith has also been known for using profanity to express herself, and did so during the press conference as she defended herself against critics who took issue with her 1975 lyric.

“I’ll sing to my enemy!” she declared. “I don’t like being pinned down and I’ll do what the [expletive] I want, especially at my age.”

“I had a strong religious upbringing, and the first word on my first LP is Jesus. I did a lot of thinking. I’m not against Jesus, but I was 20 and I wanted to make my own mistakes and I didn’t want anyone dying for me,” Smith said. “I stand behind that 20-year-old girl, but I have evolved.”

The singer, who recorded music for Darren Aronofky’s Hollywood film  “Noah,” was likewise vocal earlier this year when she denounced corporate greed during a concert in Chicago.

“Our governments, our corporations would like us to feel defeated, but we have it with our numbers if we use it. Don’t forget it!” she proclaimed. “People, you can change the [expletive] world! Take heart, don’t give up! Globally unite for peace! It’s not [expletive] corny; it’s what we [expletive] need!”

Others set to perform at the concert include Cristina Scuccia, a nun who won Italy’s “The Voice” earlier this year and covered Madonna’s “Like a Virgin” for her first recorded single.

Photo: Beni Kohler


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  • Neiman

    The Apostate Pope ruling an apostate church, who says even atheists if they are good people will be saved, no big shock that a filthy mouthed person that rejects Jesus as her savior would be on his list of performers.

    • BeWhoYouAre

      You have to be a fundamentalist. No normal person would say something like that.

      • Demopublicrat

        You must be a mary-worshiper, no normal person would say something like that.

        • BeWhoYouAre

          If you mean Catholic, I haven’t been Catholic in years, but when I was I never worshiped Mary, nor has/does any Catholic I know – your fundie pastor has lied to you. Talk to actual Catholics, don’t take someone else’s word for things.

          • Candace

            (BeWhoYouAre … may you BecomeWhoGodWantsYouToBe and be blessed.) I humbly need to challenge your statements as truthfully and kindly as I know how. I have many Catholic close friends and Catholic acquaintances. And I routinely check out the programming on EWTN the Catholic Channel (TV Network) and I myself have attended quite a few Catholic masses over the years – considered becoming a Catholic – going so far as to start studying the Catholic Catechisms. The truth is that Catholic believers follow the teaching of the Catholic Church, which says that Mary the mother of Jesus is the “Queen of Heaven” (see endnote) and they definitely pray to Mary in the “Hail Mary” prayer – in which they beseech her to intercede for the remission of their sins – – “Hail Mary …pray for us now and at the hour of our death” (which I discovered is not Biblically correct). Some Catholics don’t associate real truth to this prayer, but don’t assoc. serious error to it either since they continue to practice it. Some admit they have “Catholic traditions” that they know are outside of what’s Biblically commanded, but say they excuse it by saying it is loosely tied to a scripture (Gabriel’s address, in which Mary was only told she was favored among women, not that she had any divine position for remitting sins – and they excuse it based on Mary asking Jesus to turn water into wine at a wedding – so yes, they deify her by that basis whether they want to admit it or not). In fact the Catholics calling Mary the Queen of Heaven is an absorbed pegan worship title for the goddess Ishtar, who was venerated/worshipped for her alleged power of fertility over the earth/crops and the female womb for childbirth. As it turns out, Catholics also pray to Mary for human fertility. It’s pretty hard to deny that Catholics worship and seek Mary as a divine benefactor ahead of Jesus or the Holy Father in these cases. In spiritual ignorance I went along with my Catholic friends (I was not raised in a Christian home or church, so my Catholic friends became a consistent source and contact with religion as a young adult). I had personally had a couple of divine and angelic encounters as a child, based on a single teaching from a Protestant grandmother. I found I loved my Catholic friends because they understood and accepted the divine workings of miracles and the appearance of angels and that these things didn’t cease with the 1st Century Church. But alas, we must be truthful. The Catholic Church, perhaps in the well-meaning desire to open the church to the lost and to honor the importance of Mary, has institutionalized prayers to Mary that actually subvert the authority and deity of Christ – who is the divine authority on deliverance and the divine power on healing, and the divine authority and power to forgive sins. People seeking Mary may not seek Christ or God for their true forgiveness and healing. I suppose you could say the 1st “seeker friendly” church effort was actually made by the Catholic Church. Unfortunately when we distort scripture to please the unbelievers, we give up the divine power that is available to us and we also darken their understanding of the truths that Jesus taught His disciples. Be Blessed, BeWhoYouAre – and follow the words of Jesus in Matthew 6:33 “Seek 1st the Kingdom (authority and power) and Righteousness of God … “

          • BeWhoYouAre

            That’s simply not true, I’m sorry. The Hail Mary prayer is taken straight out of the book of Luke. The last part of the prayer is simply asking Mary to pray for us, nothing wrong with that. Catholics believe many things outside of the Bible simply because they are not “Bible-only” Christians, they also have the magisterium and sacred traditions, they give equal value to all three things. Fundamentalist Protestants have discarded the last two things on their own authority. It is a grave sin in the Catholic church to worship Mary. But Catholics do not do this, they ask Mary to pray for them, which is not worship. It seems to me you would be better off getting explanations for Catholic practices from Catholics directly and not from fundamentalist Christians who are the worst Catholic haters.

          • Rosavera

            Not true…! Not one Catholic worships the Blessed Mother as divine, never … our Lord Jesus is God and not ever is He made less to the Blessed Mother. You may have seen things wrong but there is never ever any worship of the Blessed Mother during mass or at any time. She is prayed to for intercession which is very much biblical… the Hail Mary is taken right out of the Bible and you are not seeing it…

          • Demopublicrat

            It wasn’t a “fundie” pastor, it was first hand observation. You can deny it all you want, I can’t hear what you say as your actions speak much too loud, nor can I see it over your graven images that line the mary shrines.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            But that’s a fantastically stupid thing to say, no human being in this day and age, and CERTAINLY not Catholics, worship chunks of rock. Ever heard a Catholic say “My lord and savior Mr. Statue”? Trust me on this, you’re WRONG. I was Catholic for a long time. They worship the triune God only, and it’s only the fundie websites that will try to tell you otherwise. This is HATE, nothing more or less than that.

          • Demopublicrat

            So bowing to, kissing, laying gifts at the feet of, praying to, etc the mary statue is just another day for the mary-worshippers. Trust me on this one, I’m right, my wife was a catholic, two of her aunts are nuns and the rest of the family is catholic.
            I believe one of the Ten Commandments (from the hand of God himself) says something about graven images. It’s not hate, just exposing the works of darkness as instructed in the Bible.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            So laying hands, altar calls, waving snakes, speaking in tongues and lying about the rapture is just another day for the fundies?

            You don’t understand Catholicism. Period. And if your wife was Catholic and her aunts did those things then they weren’t Catholics. You have been lied to and your religion is hatred.

          • Demopublicrat

            I do none of those things mary worshiper.

            “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:” Exodus 20:4-5
            It’s catholics who don’t understand catholicism, nor do they understand Christianity.
            Oh look, it’s the pope with his fish hat worshipping mary –

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Maybe if you asked people what they do and believe rather than tell them what they do and believe you wouldn’t be going through life with blinders on. Yes because a man who stands in front of a statue with his hands open must be worshiping it – he can’t possibly be doing anything else. Try again Mr. Fundie Bigot.

          • Demopublicrat

            What else would fish hat boy be doing in front of the graven image beside idol worship?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I don’t know Mr. Fundie, why don’t you ask him? That’s how we find things out, not by making wild accusations and guesses.

          • Demopublicrat

            I don’t need to ask, it’s plain to see.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Yep – facts mean zero to you.

          • Demopublicrat

            Seeing is believing.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            They’re praying to God.

          • Demopublicrat

            God isn’t a mary statue.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No one said He was.
            Statues are reminders and decorations. They are praying to what the statue represents or puts them in mind of.

          • Demopublicrat

            “No one said He was.” You did: “They’re praying to God.”

            So you admit they are praying to mary deifying her, or are you just admitting to defying God’s graven image command by bowing before one?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No one said he was a Mary statue.

            The fact of the matter is it’s impossible to tell what they are doing based on the picture but wrong to assume they are worshiping Mary. My best guesses is they are either praying to God or asking Mary to pray on their behalf.

            Do you know what a “graven image” is? It’s according to the dictionary a carved idol or representation of a god used as an object of worship. That is not what’s happening here, and Catholics do nothing of the kind. Two minutes in a Catholic church and you’d know Catholics worship Christ but I guess that’s much too hard work for you. You’d rather believe something hateful.

          • Demopublicrat

            Denial doesn’t change the facts that are very plain to see. A graven image is exactly what catholics bow to, kiss the feet of, give gifts to, pray to, make shrines with, etc, etc.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            If you think that’s what they’re doing, even though they’re not, then it’s not your place to judge, anyway. You aren’t God.

          • Demopublicrat

            It is my place to expose the fruits of darkness.

            “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11

          • BeWhoYouAre

            And when you deem the “fruits of darkness” to include innocent human beings, you’re going to encounter resistance from people like me. That’s not Christianity, it’s hate.

          • Demopublicrat

            inquisition anyone?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            And that’s why we don’t mix religion and government anymore.

          • Demopublicrat

            Anymore? You mean any less – iron and clay.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Given what your Tea Partiers are up to in the US, your wet dream isn’t that far away.

          • Demopublicrat

            *nonsensical statement*

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Google Michele Bachmann sometime.

          • Demopublicrat

            Another waste of time.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Don’t blame me, your comments are as transparent as your beliefs. This is what happens when you embrace a hate cult.

          • Demopublicrat

            But I’m not a catholic.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Catholics don’t hate. Fundies do.

          • Demopublicrat

            “fundies” isn’t hate… or whatever.

          • pax2u

            what Church worships Mary as God as part of their theological doctrine, please tell us all which church does that?

          • Demopublicrat

            The one with a pope who does it.

          • pax2u

            Sad that you must lie about the Catholic Church but then again since you are not a Christian and have no Christian denomination a lie which is a sin against the Christian God Jesus Christ is not important to you,

            but I will pray for your soul

          • Demopublicrat

            You’re the only one lying about the catholic church in your denials.

          • pax2u

            I am thank ful that the anti Catholic lunatic fringe never belongs to a Christian denomination

          • Demopublicrat

            I am thankful that you waste so much space with stupidity.

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you, prayer is never wasted

          • Demopublicrat

            It is on mary.

          • pax2u

            may you find Jesus Christ and the peace of his word

          • Demopublicrat

            and you.

          • pax2u

            I pray that one day you may be a Christian

          • Demopublicrat

            and you.

          • pax2u

            I will pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for you

          • Demopublicrat

            That would probably be a first.

          • pax2u

            of the day, no, I prayed earlier today, have you prayed to Jesus Christ today?

          • pax2u

            thank you

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you

          • Rosavera

            finally exposed yourself to your ugliness… calling a man of God ”fish hat boy” , check your own soul for you are demonizing a man who has devoted his whole life to the Lord…

          • Demopublicrat

            Too bad it’s not the true “lord”.
            Oh look, it’s dagon the fish-god on the pope’s staff!

          • pax2u

            I am sorry what did you say was the name of your denomination?

          • Demopublicrat

            I am sorry, where in the Bible is denomination?

          • pax2u

            I am thank full that the anti Catholic lunatic fringe never have a denomination

          • Demopublicrat

            14 words that say nothing, much like the catholic traditions fabricated by sinful men.

          • pax2u

            I am thank ful that you have no denomination

          • Demopublicrat

            8 more.

          • pax2u

            are you a Christian?

          • Demopublicrat

            followed by a lame attempt to switch the focus. Do you read the Bible? Have you found denomination yet?

          • pax2u

            a Christian would proclaim their belief in their Lord Jesus Christ

            I understand why you do not proclaim that Jesus Christ is your God

            I pray that you find Jesus Christ

          • Demopublicrat

            A Christian would be able to give account for what they believe, not post accusations and lame weasel replies.

          • pax2u

            if you were a Christian you would not be ashamed to proclaim that Jesus Christ is God

        • pax2u

          and you must be an anti Christian with out a denomination

          • Demopublicrat

            and you must like bearing false witness

          • pax2u

            then what is your denomination, and if you are not ashamed to tell us all then you are correct and that I am bearing false witness

          • Demopublicrat

            Where in the Bible does it say we need a denomination? If you are not ashamed you know nothing of the Bible just traditions of sinful man, you will show the passage.

            “I am bearing false witness” – a step in the right direction.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you are alone

          • Demopublicrat

            it is best that you don’t try and answer, you would look even more foolish.

          • pax2u

            I understand why you do not belong to any church

          • Demopublicrat

            I understand why you bear false witness and lie, your a maryian.

          • pax2u

            It is best that you have no denomination, church or fellowship

          • Demopublicrat

            I understand why you bear false witness and lie, your a maryian.

          • pax2u

            actually I am a cubs fan

          • Demopublicrat

            You worship the cubs then?

          • pax2u

            no but I do pray for them? who do you worship?

          • Demopublicrat

            God, not mary, not the pope, God.

          • pax2u

            I do not worship Mary or the Pope

            I worship my Christian God Jesus Christ

            do you worship the Christian God Jesus Christ?

          • Demopublicrat

            What was that? I can’t hear you over all of the vain repetitions of the rosary.

          • pax2u

            sad that you reject Jesus Christ

            I pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ that you find his love and mercy, amen

      • Neiman

        If you mean the below beliefs, I plead guilty, pretty dangerous stuff, right?
        The inerrancy of the Bible
        The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ’s miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
        The Virgin Birth of Christ
        The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
        The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

        What gives you the right to determine what is normal?

        • BeWhoYouAre

          So you’re a “Bible only” Christian.

          Interesting. That means you, by your own authority, have chosen to reject church teaching and sacred traditions. On whose authority did you do so? Are those teachings any less “man made” than the Bible itself?

          It’s not difficult to take a couple of minutes to talk to a Catholic, and if you did you’d find out that they are not praying to Mary but asking Mary to pray for them.

          What gives me the right to determine what is normal? Because I don’t assume Catholics worship Mary, and you do.

          • Neiman

            None of the RCC teachings or traditions are sacred, they are man made and not biblical at all.
            http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-tradition.html

            Sola scriptura?
            http://www.gotquestions.org/sola-scriptura.html

            Adoration and worship are identical. Where in the Holy Bible does it say Mary can hear or prayers or has any influence over what God will do? Include all other pretended saints of the RCC.
            http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-rosary.html

            So, your idea of normal is based on your bias, not any objective standard?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            So why are you referring to a bigot site like gotquestions for Catholic-related information? That’s like directing jews to read Mein Kampf.

            Considering the Catholic church codified the very Bible you use, I’d say your information is beyond bizarre.

          • Neiman

            What utter nonsense! Got Questions is a biblically based website which offers a sound scriptural basis for everything. You are of course free to reject Holy Scripture in preference for the Roman Catholic Church. There is absolutely no comparison at all between that website and Hitler’s book.

            The Roman Catholic Church did not codify the Holy Bible, they did not even come into existence until 352 – 500 years after the resurrection of Christ. The RCC is a man-made, holy apostate and false Christian church.

            That is mye conclusion based on several decades of research and nearly 6 decades of studying the Holy Bible. If you don’t like my opinion, that is your free will choice.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Spoken like a true fundie – all hatred and not a single fact.

            That website is a joke, along with carm.org and a host of others that spew anti-Catholic hatred. Holy scripture is EMBRACED by the Catholic Church, Catholics are CHRISTIANS. I knew this in first grade. Why don’t you know it now? Your fundie pastor is LYING TO YOU.

            I just effortlessly looked up the origins of the Bible and yes, it was put together by the Catholic Church. In fact the only sites that refute this HISTORICAL FACT are fundie sites.

          • Neiman

            Not only are you guilty of being False witness against me by calling my words hate. Because you do not rely on Scripture only, you do not know from God’s point of view what hate is and what love is. Did you know that there are many Scriptures wherein God says He hates sin and that He hates certain sinners? Did you know that Jesus in His Revelations commended a couple of churches for hating certain sins and certain teachings, which he said he also hated? So if Bible believing Christians hate sin, their own sins first and then the sins of the world, why is that wrong? If they express opposition to false teachings and false churches, because they know they are leading people away from Christ and salvation, why is that hate? Isn’t that really love for the sinners?

            While any individual Catholic that came to salvation by God’s grace alone, by faith alone and that faith in and of Christ alone, if that was their sincere confession, there is no reason to believe that they are not Christians and are not saved, even if they hold to some false traditions and partake of false sacraments. But, if in any way shape manner or form they are looking to the Roman Catholic Church to save them, if they are depending upon Mary to intercede for them in their salvation, they are on false ground and their everlasting souls are in danger. As to the Roman Catholic Church itself, it was pagan in its beginnings and it remains wholly apostate to this day and their Pope is a false prophet.

            Your use of the word “fundie” is used as a pejorative, it implies your rejection of them as being Christians because they are not members of the Roman Catholic Church. Lastly, those Gospels and epistles that were included in the canon had nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church, as they were widely recognized as being authoritative long before a few power mad bishops in Rome began forcing individual church groups to submit to their false authority, while they were busy mixing their apostate faith with pagan rituals and beliefs.

            It is useless to continue these exchanges, as my opinions are always and only based upon God’s Word and yours on the teachings of Rome. We will never come to any common ground on this issue.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Get it straight buddy, not all Christians are “Scripture Only.” I’m sure you wish they were but they aren’t. God is a God of love, not hate. You aren’t the only Christians to hate sin, you just want to believe you are. And you define “sin” a lot more broadly than everyone else.

            Who are you to talk about “false traditions” and “false sacraments”? You only believe they’re false because some idiot in a pulpit spewing hate told you they were. As for being “saved”, how can you call yourself “saved” when you haven’t even died yet? Die first, then we can talk about whether God “saved” you.

            Catholics don’t “depend” on Mary to intercede for them, but they might choose to. There’s nothing wrong with intercessory prayer, it’s no different than you asking a friend or loved one to pray for you. Once again you are making a strawman argument, because Catholics don’t believe what you say they do.

            I don’t use the word “Fundie” as a Catholic because I’m NOT a Catholic. I use it because that’s precisely what you are, you are directing hatred and scorn at your fellow Christians and it is absolutely disgusting.

          • Neiman

            Every time you accuse me of hate, you are bearing false witness against me and that is a sin. In matter of absolute fact, it is the love of God in me that causes me to openly oppose sin, including false teachings that lead people away from Christ, because I do not want them to spend eternity in hell. It is you that hate people, because you hate the truth and you don’t care what happens to them.

            If salvation is not based completely on “thus saith the Lord,” on what possible basis could anyone believe they are saved? If we cannot trust God and his revealed word alone, as he tells us the way to his salvation; how can we place our trust in frail, finite man to tell us what God really means? Who do we trust? God! Or, men, even if they call themselves priests or popes. If God in his infinite love chose to speak to us through his Word, can’t we trust him the giver of all life to speak to us clearly and give us all we need for time and eternity in his word? How can we trust eternity based on the words of other sinners like ourselves?

            “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

            Has eternal life, is passed from death to life, are all past tense terms. We have many more passages from holy Scripture that tell us that those who believe in Him cannot be condemned, cannot come into judgment, that by faith we died with him and by faith we were resurrected to new life in Him – now. These are all present tense verses. The Bible further tells us that once we come by faith to him by God’s grace, we are already in Spirit part of his spiritual body, that we are already seated with Him in Spirit, in heavenly places. How do I know? Because I believe in “thus saith the Lord.” His word is sufficient for me, his indwelling Holy Spirit is the seal of my salvation.

            There is not a single word in Holy Scripture which even remotely hints that Mary, any person elevated to sainthood by the Pope or anyone in heaven but God alone can hear our prayers or have any power to intercede for us. Our only intercessor, our only advocate in heaven’s court is Jesus Christ the Lord, He personally hears all of our prayers as does the Father and the Spirit, having such direct access to God by prayer of what possible value could there be to pray to anyone else?

            Lastly, it is only your own hate, your own lack of intimacy with God that causes you to accuse others of hate. What you call hate is any opposition to sin, you cannot stand the idea that you are a hell bound sinner unless you repent of those sins and are born again in Christ Jesus. It is the love of God within that causes every Christian to openly oppose sin that the Holy Spirit within us might convict lost souls of their deserving of hell and thereby draw them to Christ that he might save their souls and give them eternal life. That is the love of God, ignoring sin, failing to oppose sin is the work of the devil..

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You were guilty of false witness the moment you started to attack your fellow Christians. How DARE you do such a thing and self-righteously declare yourself “saved” in the same breath. Catholics were around thousands of years before you were, you are in no position to tell them about Christianity.

            The pope is merely the head of the Catholic church, just as any church, even yours, has a human leader. He does not proclaim himself to be God.

            And if you believe Mary to be dead and not alive and in heaven, what chance does that give the rest of us? And once again you look SOLELY to scripture for this. Those are YOUR RULES, not the rules of the original Christians who also look to church teaching and traditions.

            May God forgive you for your hateful words, lying, false witness and judgment of His people.

          • Neiman

            I never attacked fellow Christians, I have affirmed that anyone that comes to Jesus by God’s Grace, by faith alone, is a Christian; and, although I have shown how the Roman Catholic Church does not have authority over the Body of Christ. I gave scripture and facts, you only blind allegiance to Rome.

            I never said that Mary was dead and while I never said so, I have absolutely no doubt that she is saved and has been in Heaven for over 2000 years. I find no scriptural authority to say that she hears our prayers, nor that she has been anointed by God to intercede for anyone and I find no scriptural basis to say that she is greater than any other child of God.

            “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” Romans 8:34 If Jesus who has saved after the uttermost, is at the right hand of the Father and he intercedes for all of his children, what possible need to we have for Mary? Is her intercession of greater worth to the Father than that of Christ?

            God’s Word alone is Scriptural
            (1) It is Scripture that is said to be God-breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), and it is Scripture that has the repeated, “Thus saith the LORD…” In other words, it is the written Word that is repeatedly treated as God’s Word. Never is it said of any church tradition that it, too, is God-breathed and infallible.

            (2) It is to Scripture that Jesus and the apostles appeal time after time in support or defense of their actions and teachings (Matthew 12:3, 5; 19:4; 22:31; Mark 12:10). There are over 60 verses in which you find “it is written…” used by Jesus and the apostles to support their teachings.

            (3) It is to the Scriptures that the church is commended in order to combat the error that was bound to come (Acts 20:32). Likewise, it was the written Word that was seen in the Old Testament as the source of truth upon which to base one’s life (Joshua 1:8; Deuteronomy 17:18-19; Psalm 1; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; etc.). Jesus said that one of the reasons that the Sadducees were in error concerning the resurrection is that they did not know the Scriptures (Mark 12:24).

            (4) Infallibility is never stated as the possession of those who would become church leaders in succession of the apostles. In both the Old and New Testaments, it is seen that duly appointed religious leaders could cause the people of God to err (1 Samuel 2:27-36; Matthew 15:14; 23:1-7; John 7:48; Acts 20:30; Galatians 2:11-16). Both Testaments exhort people to study the Scriptures to determine what is true and what is false (Psalm 19; 119; Isaiah 8:20; 2 Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17). While Jesus taught respect toward religious leaders (Matthew 23:3), an admonition which the apostles followed, we have the apostles’ example of breaking from the authority of their religious leaders when it was in opposition to what Jesus had commanded (Acts 4:19).

            (5) Jesus equates the Scriptures with God’s Word (John 10:35). In contrast, when it comes to the religious traditions, He condemns some traditions because they contradict the written Word (Mark 7:1-13). Never does Jesus use religious tradition to support His actions or teachings. Before the writing of the New Testament, the Old Testament was the only inspired Scripture. However, there were literally hundreds of Jewish “traditions” recorded in the Talmud (a collection of commentary compiled by Jewish rabbis). Jesus and the apostles had both the Old Testament, and the Jewish tradition. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus or any of the apostles appeal to the Jewish traditions. In contrast, Jesus and the apostles quote from or allude to the Old Testament hundreds of times. The Pharisees accused Jesus and the apostles of “breaking the traditions” (Matthew 15:2). Jesus responded with a rebuke: “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?” (Matthew 15:3). The manner in which Jesus and the apostles distinguished between the Scriptures and tradition is an example for the church. Jesus specifically rebukes treating the “commandments of men” as doctrines (Matthew 15:9).

            (6) It is Scripture that has the promise that it will never fail, that it will all be fulfilled. Again, never is this promise given to the traditions of the church (Psalm 119:89,152; Isaiah 40:8; Matthew 5:18; Luke 21:33).

            (7) It is the Scriptures that are the instrument of the Holy Spirit and His means for conquering Satan and changing lives (Hebrews 4:12; Ephesians 6:17).

            God has already forgivin me all of my sins past, present and future. However I have uttered no hateful words here, you cannot prove I have told a single lie, you cannot prove that I have ever borne false witness against anyone and I have not judged anyone that has come to Christ by God’s grace, by faith alone based solely on God’s revealed word.

            Note: I do not now, nor have I ever been a member of any man organized religious organization. While I fellowship and join in corporate worship with other Christians, I am a member of the Body of Christ, I am only a member of his Church and he is my only Lord and the sole source of all the exigencies of this life and eternity. I trust in God alone, I walk by his word alone and that in Christ alone, by the Holy Spirit.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I haven’t got blind allegiance to Rome, I simply believe in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. The Catholic church does not CLAIM to have authority over the Body of Christ, the two work hand in hand. You have been lied to by haters, fundamentalists, and snake oil salesman. The Catholic church has been operating since Jesus gave the keys to St. Peter. Your fundie church has been around less than 100 years. Who would I believe? Does a Chevy tell a Ford that it’s not really a car? Then why should a fundie church know better than the church established by Christ?

          • Neiman

            No matter how many scriptures I have provided to show that Jesus and the Apostles only and always rested every argument on God’s Word and “thus saith the Lord,” you ignore them, you turn to tradition and the Catholic Church for Truth. Sad!

            There is absolutely no scriptural proof that Jesus gave the keys to Peter alone, or that there was any apostolic succession, the RCC did not even come into being as such until 350-500 years after the Resurrection and they have no direct connection to the Apostolic Church at all. No proof Peter was ever in Rome or that he was the first Pope. Everything the Catholic Church teaches is based on lies, a few Bishops decided to assume authority over the many local Christian congregations as a power grab and all the while they mixed Scripture with pagan myths. This is the Church you give so much authority to and trust in, yet if you were a Christian, you would have God the Holy Spirit within you to guide you into all Truth, but He is not enough, no to you man must tells us whether or not what the Spirit says is right. God created us, but you trust men more. God gave us His Word, but you trust men more. You don’t trust God at all.

            You can keep trying to offend me with the pejorative “fundie” label, but while I agree with the 5 fundamentals of the Christian faith, I am a member of the Body of Christ, a member of His Church alone and He is my only authority.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I am not turning to the Catholic Church for truth, that’s all in your mind. I am not even Catholic anymore. I’m simply pointing out that your fundamentalism has turned you into someone who hates Christians.

            “There is absolutely no scriptural proof…” There you go again trying to make me play by YOUR rules. You are a Bible-only Christian. I am NOT. Stop trying to make me look in the Bible for things I freely admit are not there. Stop hating. Stop attacking.

            You are a fundie. You are NOT a Christian.

          • Neiman

            I am done with you, these debates with you only become vain disputations and there is no hope that we can ever reason together. I have told you the truth in the love of God and I leave it to Him to deal with your heart. Hereafter, I will refuse long, tiresome and useless debates with you.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I pray that you find freedom from fundamentalist Christianity.

          • pax2u

            I notice when Neuman is at a loss, his answer is that he is done, just as well, sad that some are filled with hatred and bigotry against Christians

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I will get in his face any time I see him lying for Jesus.

          • pax2u

            bless you for your patience and strength defending the Christian faith against bigotry

            He is the usual anti Catholic, no denomination, no theology, filled with anger, lies and hatred. When confronted with truth, runs away like a scalded dog, crying with self pity, but they do serve the role of the useful idiot showing the world the face of those who hate Christians

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Well, him and bigots like him are going to have to get ready to answer to their bigotry, when I see it I’m not going to just let it go by.

          • pax2u

            did you happen to see the sick post of the fake cajun from Utah?

            either he is a child in mom’s basement or confined to a nursing facility using the day room computer

          • Rosavera

            Actually it IS in the Bible that our Lord gave the keys to St. Peter and you will never accept that because it is the fundamentals of your beliefs of your protestant church not to … without this belief your Protestantism would not exist.

          • Neiman

            I don’t believe it because it is a lie!

            I am tired now and hope you will cut back your posts, because if I wake up and see too many, I will just delete them all.

          • Rosavera

            Are you trying to deny scripture…? Read the Bible and know the truth…

          • Neiman

            No, you are. There is not one word that says Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, that is what your church teaches, but they are lying, it is not fact. Jesus said that Peter’s confession of Him as Lord was the key to the kingdom and He gave it to all the apostles to help them unlock the way unto salvation by showing Jesus as Savior and Lord. Peter was not the chief among the apostles, he was accused by Jesus once of being in league with Satan, he ran away like a coward when Jesus was on trial. Paul tells us that Peter was the apostle to the Jews and Peter agreed, James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles (world). Peter was never in Rome, Paul was. There is not the slightest hint of apostolic succession or that Peter was ever a pope. On and on the RCC misrepresents and twist scripture that they might have power over men and accumulate riches.

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

            scripture alone

          • pax2u

            yes he is, it does not match his hatred of Christians

          • pax2u

            sad that you hide from the truth,

            Matt 16

            18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

            no surprise that you belong to no church or denomination

          • Neiman

            You are wrong, I never said I do not belong to a church, I belong to the Body of Christ, which is the only true Church. I am not a member of any denomination, but I do fellowship with them and share with them everything fundamental to the faith.

            You are wrong about the keys of the kingdom and Peter: You may go here to get the facts from God’s Word: http://www.gotquestions.org/keys-of-the-kingdom.html. There is no evidence that Jesus appointed Peter as the leader even of the early Church, in Jerusalem it was James, the half-brother of Jesus, for the world it was Paul and Peter was by Paul’s words and Peter’s own admission the Apostle to the Jews. There is no clear, objective evidence Peter was ever in Rome, let alone its first Bishop, but Paul was there ministering to the Church in Rome. There is no evidence of Apostolic succession beyond Matthias filling the place of Judas and his qualifications were stated by Peter, for Matthias and any Apostle was having to have been a direct eye-witness to the entire ministry of Jesus and seen Christ after His Resurrection. When Jesus spoke thus to Peter, it was in response to Peter’s confession of Him being the Lord and there is no indication He gave Peter those keys alone.

            I have not hidden from anything, I have presented the evidence from Scripture many times, even under this thread.

          • pax2u

            I understand why you would not be a part of any denomination

            sad that you attack Christians, I will pray for you

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Still bashing Catholics I see, and you’ve picked up a few fans along the way. Keep it up, you’re doing swimmingly in looking like a hateful, intolerant bigot. Why not attack a few more Christian denominations while you’re at it? You’ve gone after the biggest one, the others should just follow suit.

          • pax2u

            I see on other web sites the Catholic Church being attacked by gays because the Church supports the traditional marriage of one man and one women, I now see the connection of those who hate the Church

          • Neiman

            What you call hatred and bashing and attacking, I see as exposing the false teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic Church, in the love for every individual Catholic that they might escape that false church and find salvation and eternal life in Christ Jesus alone. You may call me all the names you like, but by your many words you have shown that you actually hate homosexuals and you hate Catholics, as you are unwilling to oppose sin and point them to salvation by grace alone, by faith alone in Jesus alone. You would rather see them dead and in hell than find eternal life with God.

            Now who is truly a hateful, intolerant bigot? I suggest you look in the mirror.

            Jesus warns his children that just as you people of the world hated him and still hate him, they would hate his true children as well and so while I am no different than anyone, not finding hate directed my way pleasant, that is exactly what Jesus told his children to expect. As you hate Jesus, because you refuse to oppose sin and you refuse to trust in God’s word alone, it is strangely a badge of honor that you hate me as well. No, don’t make your false professions of love again, as it has nothing to do with the love of Christ and don’t offer me your prayers, because your god is not the God of the Bible.

          • pax2u

            I am not surprised that you have no denomination,

          • pax2u

            so you say that Catholics hate homosexuals, and homosexuals hate the Catholic church for supporting the Traditional marriage of one man and one women, and you hate the Catholic Church

            are you a homosexual who hates the Catholic Church?

          • Neiman

            I never said nor even remotely hinted that Catholics hate homosexuals. I never said or even remotely hinted that homosexuals hate the Catholic Church. As is typical of people of your ilk, accusing me of being a homosexual is beneath contempt and a sin.

          • pax2u

            I only asked yet another yes or no questions, and I notice you never answer

            true, Catholics do not hate homosexuals, but hate sin

            Catholics hate the anger and lies of the bigots, so Catholics do not hate you, just your hatred and bigotry of Christians

            I ask all Christians here to pray for your eternal soul

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Why are they false teachings? Just because some fundie told you they were?: That’s hardly a good enough answer. You were lied to, and HE was lied to, and on it goes. See how it works? And before long you are spouting hate as though it were fact.

            And I really wish you wouldn’t keep quoting the Bible, the book the Catholics gave you, to try to justify Catholic hate. You know what I like about Catholics? They behave NOTHING like you do – they aren’t loud, crass, hateful and full of misinformation they feel the need to shriek over a message forum online.

          • Neiman

            I know you don’t like me quoting the Bible, because you hate God’s word. You would rather believe in the teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church. God is telling you, “8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.” And, Collossians Two, “18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:”

            The Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Bible, they had nothing to do with it, they only recognized the New Testament Scriptures, which were already commonly accepted by the Christian church. As to how Catholics behave it is only based on your hate of Bible believing Christians, not fact.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I don’t hate God’s word, I hate you and your manipulation of it to suit your self-righteousness.

            The Catholic church canonized the Bible. That’s a fact, and if you don’t like it, then your issue isn’t with me, it’s with history.

          • pax2u

            “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists–that with them is the Word of God, which we received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.”- Martin Luther

          • Neiman

            I am not a Lutheran and he was also a raging antisemite.

          • Martin
          • pax2u

            he has an edited Bible, maybe he believes that Jesus also gave the keys to Judas

          • Rosavera

            Why don’t you like the fact that it is Catholics that have held the faith intact and i rarely if ever see a Catholic actually come out and demonize another Christian as you and other like you do… if only you would understand that it is love that drives the Catholic church forward and not hate for other brothers and sisters…

          • Neiman

            The Roman Catholic Church has persecuted Protestants for centuries, still do in predominantly Catholic countries in Central and South America and the Church has in the past and has never lifted its anathema on all non-Catholics.

          • Rosavera

            Did you know that here, in our own country the USA, the Protestants did not allow Catholics to vote, or have a say so in government or any other office because Protestants blocked them…? Don’t throw rocks before you know your sins…

          • pax2u

            the Protestant Know Nothing political party of the 1800s and the Protestant Ku Klux Klan which still hates Blacks, Jews and Catholics

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You’re doing a pretty good job of persecuting them right now. Leave them alone.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you are not a part of any organized religious organization, I could not imagine any church or denomination that would agree with you

          • Rosavera

            Where do you see in the word of our Lord Jesus the words ”thus says the Lord”…?

          • Neiman

            How about Isaiah 45: “45 Thus saith the Lord to his anointed,. . .”

          • Rosavera

            since you are ‘sola scriptura’ try using the actual words of our Lord in the New Testament… that was my question.

          • Rosavera

            i have nothing against this scripture, but my question is are you putting us all Christians under the yoke of the Old Testament the old covenant…?

          • Neiman

            No, you asked where in Scripture I could find “Thus saith the Lord,” I gave you an example. I believe it is dangerous to say or do anything unless it is based on thus saith the Lord, rather than what some frail finite, sinful man, be he priest or Pope might say.

          • Rosavera

            i feel sorry for you for calling a man of God like the Pope in such a manner… i specifically asked you to find the words of our Lord Jesus when He spoke the words ”thus saith the Lord”, and you can’t… the OT has them but not in our NT.

          • Rosavera

            Praying to the Blessed Mother for intercession is biblical, even the earliest Christians did this and there is proof on the wall of the catacombs, and these are the same Christians that witnessed St.Peter and other Apostles… interesting that even the cross is taken as a symbol by Protestants as ugly, there is nothing more beautiful and more symbolic of who we are as Christians as followers of our Lord as the sign of the cross…

          • Neiman

            Show in Holy Scripture wherein there is a single word that supports praying to Mary or any so-called saint or that she can intercede for anyone or has any special influence with God. Or, you are in error.

            (a) No graven images sound familiar, regarding a cross or your Church statues? (b) Your crucifix still has Jesus on the Cross, while He is not there, He is risen.

          • Rosavera

            How childish you seem now with your words… open your eyes don’t let yourself be blinded by ‘sola scriptura’ and who says that only the books in the Bible are the only things that shape our faith, did not John say that if he wrote all that our Lord said and did there would not be enough room on earth to contain them…? Our Lord said to take up the cross and carry it … as for the Blessed Mother she is my mother also, spiritually, and i will ask her to intercede to her Son for me… i do not worship her but i do love her and she is in my heart, not as a divine being but as a mother who loves me… do you really think that our Lord would allow His mother to die and be buried in the dirt as any other common person…?

          • Neiman

            It is always very upsetting and personally painful, whenever the subject of the Catholic Church comes up. Even though I find it necessary to oppose the teachings of the Catholic Church, which teachings I believe are unscriptural and even antichrist, I hate that my defense of Jesus and God’s Word causes offense and pain to individual Catholics. It is always, for me, a very unpleasant experience; and, yet if I truly believe what Catholic Church teaches is wrong and that those teachings endanger the souls of individual Catholics, I would think it is sin if I stayed silent. I truly love every individual Catholic, wanting desperately for them to come to the truth and yet the charge will always come against me that I hate them and there is nothing I can do about it. I would rather avoid these discussion altogether, if I did not love every human being caught up in the Church of Rome.

            Even though you cannot find a single word in the New Testament which supports your emotional desire to pray to Mary or that even remotely hints that she can intercede for us or that in any way she can impact our lives, your emotions drive you to devotion to her. Yet, what you do not understand is that by your very words, by your appeals to Mary and your devotion to her, albeit not supported by holy Scripture, that you are denying thereby that the Holy Bible, the word of God is sufficient for everything in this life and eternity. Rather you depend upon tradition and extra biblical sources and the teachings of mortal men over God’s revealed word. It is terribly offensive to God, by your appeal to other sources than the Bible, as it cast doubt upon his love and his sufficiency, it is to say that God your word was not complete, we must rely upon mere mortals to add to your word and we find ourselves trusting in these men more than you. In a similar way, you rely upon your own self efforts, the sacraments, penance, tradition and the teachings of men to save your soul and that is a slap in the face to Christ, it is saying, Jesus we have to add to your sacrifice, even though you died and gave us salvation as a gift, we must somehow earn that gift, you did not give us a complete salvation, we need to help make your work perfect.

            I have never said that Mary died, not in the sense of spiritual death, although surely she passed through physical death, since her casting off of her mortal body, she has surely been ever present with the Lord in heaven, a child of God. While there is absolutely no justification, none at all, to call her our mother, to believe she hears our prayers, to believe that she can intercede for us with God or play any role, as the Pope suggests, in our salvation. Again that is a slap in the face to Jesus, it denies him living in us by his Spirit, it denies that we have direct access to him by prayer, it denies that he is the only head of his church and it denies that he ever lives to intercede for us personally.

          • pax2u

            Catholics love you, and hate your bigotry

          • Neiman

            So you are the Pope, you speak for all Catholics?

          • pax2u

            Catholics are told to love those who hate us

            I understand why you have no church or denomination

          • pax2u

            I am not the Pope and I do not speak for all Catholics, have I now answered all of your questions, now, do you honor the American Flag?

          • Neiman

            No you never have answered where in the Holy Bible there is any warrant for our praying to Mary or her being able to intercede for us.

          • pax2u

            James 5:16

            Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working

            John 2

            1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there,2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

            4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

            5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

            6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing,each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

            7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

            8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

            They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

            11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

          • Neiman

            Praying for each other has nothing to do with praying to Mary or saints. http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

          • pax2u

            is Heaven empty?

          • pax2u

            I realize that you do not believe that you will go to heaven when you die, so very sad

            I ask all Christians here to pray for your soul

          • Neiman

            First, your post has descended into nothing but lies against me. I never said that I don’t believe I will go to heaven, in fact Scripture tells me, that in spirit, I’m already seated in heaven with and in Christ. It also says that his children will never die, that by being converted they have already passed from death unto life.

            Our exchanges have come to an end, I have said all to you that I have to say, I have based all of my responses on the holy Bible and our conversations had descended into vain disputations. There is nothing to be achieved by our continuing, I will delete all of your future posts on the subject.

            I always covet the prayers of my true brothers and sisters in Christ, those that had been born again by the spirit of Christ and that have the indwelling Holy Spirit.. If any of those you appeal to fit that description I am more than happy to have them pray for me. If however they are like you, I would rather they not waste their time or mine.

          • pax2u

            the souls of the Holy in Heaven are alive and hear our prayers

            Please pray for me as I pray for you

          • pax2u

            sad that you can not speak for your self or use the Bible

          • pax2u

            Muslims also hate Catholics and are iconoclasts, and he says that the Christian Cross is a graven image, and that he does not belong to an organized Christian organization. maybe he is a muslim

          • pax2u

            so is the Christian Cross a graven image?

          • Neiman

            Not the actual cross which bore Jesus body, but every cross made by the hands of man for wearing or display are.

          • pax2u

            sad that you say that the Catholic Church is pagan

            also sad that you do not belong to any Christian denomination

          • Neiman

            “For the first 280 years of Christian
            history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians
            were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the
            Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration
            with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on
            Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea
            in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity
            as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was
            beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a
            positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything
            but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the
            Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices,
            so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true
            Christianity and Roman paganism.

            Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive,
            and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious
            beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even
            promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and
            utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some
            clear examples of this are as follows:”

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html#ixzz3JoCemPBH

            “The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the
            papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the
            city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman Empire, and
            with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to
            prominence in all facets of life. Constantine and his successors gave
            their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church.
            Of course, it is best for the unity of the Roman Empire that the
            government and state religion be centralized. While most other bishops
            (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme,
            the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and
            influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman Empire collapsed, the
            popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman
            emperors—Pontifex Maximus.

            Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in
            demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman
            Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices.
            The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of
            complicated theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of
            its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic
            Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

            The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of
            Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of
            proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church
            “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By
            blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic
            Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One
            result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the
            Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant
            form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ
            and the true proclamation of God’s Word.”

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html#ixzz3JoCy25CD

          • pax2u

            it is best that you belong to no denomination

          • Martin

            Actually Neiman you started the whole “False witness” sinning by calling the pope “apostate” now the shoe is on the other foot and you dont like it? You are wrongly dividing the word of truth. I will pray for your conversion to the real Jesus not the false prophets you follow.

          • Neiman

            I do not make such accusations lightly, I have offered many, many reasons why your Pope is Apostate, I can understand why you would disagree and that is your free will right.

            What false prophets do I follow and why, based on the Bible only, are they false prophets? Just because they are Protestants?

            I only follow Jesus Christ, my trust is only in God, my teacher and guide is only the Holy Spirit and my foundation is God’s Word.

            Pray for me all you want, I am safe in Jesus arms, I am part of His Body the only True Church, according to His Word I am in Spirit already seated with Him in heavenly places and according to His Word can never come into condemnation.

          • jennylynn

            Roman Catholics often say that it was their church that gave us the Bible. They sometimes claim this when defending their “Sacred Tradition,” so that they might support extra-biblical teachings such as purgatory, penance, indulgences, and Mary worship. They often say the only way the Christian church knew what books are to be included in the Canon of Scripture was because it was revealed by word-of-mouth in the early church, that is, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

            Unfortunately, this argument implies that tradition is superior to Scripture. When Sacred Tradition is claimed to be the thing by which Scripture is given, then tradition is inadvertently the thing that gives blessing and approval to the Bible. Heb. 7:7 says, “But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.” The unfortunate psychological effect of saying that Roman Catholic tradition is what gave us the Bible is that it elevates their tradition to a level far greater than what is permitted in Scripture. In fact, it is contradicted by scripture:

            “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.” (1 Cor. 4:6).
            The Bible tells us to obey the Word of God–to not go beyond the written Word (1 Cor. 4:6). Unfortunately, the problem with an elevated status of Roman Catholic church tradition is that it results in various justifications of its non-biblical teachings such as prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, penance, works of righteousness, etc. Because it has deviated from trusting God’s Word alone, it has ventured into unscriptural areas. Nevertheless, did the Roman Catholic Church give us the Bible? No, it did not.

            First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really around as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution, and official church gatherings were very risky in the Roman Empire due to the persecution. Catholicism, as an organization with a central figure located in Rome, did not occur for quite some time in spite of its claim they can trace the papacy back to Peter.

            Second, the Christian Church recognized what was Scripture. It did not establish it. This is a very important point. The Christian Church recognizes what God has inspired and pronounces that recognition. In other words, it discovers what is already authentic. Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice and they follow me . . . ” (John 10:27). The church hears the voice of Christ; that is, it recognizes what is inspired, and it follows the word. It does not add to it as the Roman Catholic Church has done. Therefore, it is not following the voice of Christ.

            Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture to which Christ and the apostles appealed. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, then how can they rightfully claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn’t, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired.

            Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents, they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn’t any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself that worked through the Apostles.

            Fifth, the Scripture says, “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Pet. 1:20-21). The Bible tells us that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the very nature of the inspired documents is that they carry power and authenticity in themselves. They are not given the power or the authenticity of ecclesiastical declaration.

          • Neiman

            For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would turn to frail, finite man for divine truth, rather than placing all of their trust in God the Creator and “thus saith the Lord.” When we have direct access to Almighty God through Jesus Christ our Lord and we have His revealed word to lead us to salvation, how could anyone risk their eternal fate on the teachings of mere men, even if they call themselves priests or the Pope?

            If we cannot place all of our trust in God alone, who else could we trust, who else is worthy of our trust, who would we want to trust? If the giver of all life is not worthy of our complete trust, what is man that we would trust him? My goodness, don’t these people know that God is all we need?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            jennylynn, you copied and pasted that wall of hate directly from the anti-Catholic website carm.org. To prove it, here is the link.

            http://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible

            Hate is hate and lies are lies. And lying for Jesus is still lying.

          • jennylynn

            Carm is a very reputable source that exposes error and cites from your own catholic doctrine. Love is helping others to see the errors so they don’t walk in darkness. Ephesians 5:11 Have no fellowship with the unfruitful deeds of darkness but rather expose them. I think Carm is offensive to you because it points out errors of false doctrine. Instead of getting defensive, search and test everything by God’s word and not the Catholic Church or the pope.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Carm is a hate site, recognized as such by most people, and lying in the name of Jesus is still lying, as I have pointed out. Carm is not offensive because it points out false doctrine. Carm is offensive because it IS false doctrine, hatred, and lies.

          • jennylynn

            Know Your Enemy (Part 23 – Roman Catholicism)
            youtube.com

            This might help you if you can bear it.
            Blessings!

          • jennylynn

            Know Your Enemy (Part 23 – Roman Catholicism)16:24
            Know Your Enemy (Part 23 – Roman Catholicism)
            youtube.com

          • BeWhoYouAre

            More cut and pasted hate? why do you bother?

          • jennylynn

            Don’t let your fear keep you from the truth.

            I understand how you feel. My husband was brought up catholic and many of his friends, but the truth set him free from the bondage of the Catholic Church. Please do the search and stop arguing.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Don’t let your hate keep yourself from the truth. You have been lied to, and you need to face that simple fact.

          • pax2u

            It is best that you have no church or denomination

          • jennylynn

            Again you are mislead. I never said I didn’t have a church. I said I don’t belong to a denomination. Denominations take after a man’s name. I have a great church that teaches the whole council of God, and I am far from alone. :))))

          • pax2u

            it is best that you have no known denomination, I forgive you your hatred of Christians

            you are not alone , there will always be the anti Christian lunatic fringe

            I will pray for your eternal soul, as you say that the Catholic Church is the puppet of Satan, I for give you

            have a blessed day

          • pax2u

            just wait, the anti Christian lunatic fringe will soon post from the Jack Chick hate web site

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Yeah, except the Chick fanatics are fundies, not anti-Christians. Well, I guess they ARE anti-Christian if they hate Catholics.

          • Rosavera

            We are not the enemy, but your beliefs makes you believe we are because of your hate for anyone but yourself and your church. In one instance you decry that the Roman Catholic church is not real and at the same time you try to elevate your own by doing so… this is your focus and has been ever since you separated yourselves from the Catholic church. Too bad you are all too blind to see that our love and adoration is for our Lord only …

          • jennylynn

            A misunderstanding by the title. “Know your Enemy” is an awesome Series that exposes the enemy’s tactics. The enemy is Satan not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is his puppet along with other things. You would have to watch the series from the beginning where he states who the actual enemy is. It is very thoroughly researched. Mark goes into great detail as to the roots are of many things. I hope you watch it before making accusations.
            Blessings

          • jennylynn

            Furthermore, I don’t doubt your love. Again a misunderstanding on your part. I hope you research before making accusations.
            My heart is to expose the fallacies not condemn your heart. I hope this clears things up.
            Blessings!

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred of Christians, and forgive you
            blessings to you , have a nice day

          • pax2u

            I think that we are the enemy of those who hate Christians

          • pax2u

            is the Catholic Church your enemy, is that what your denomination teaches?

          • jennylynn

            Obviously a grave misunderstanding by the title. “Know your Enemy” is an awesome Series that exposes the enemy’s tactics. The enemy is Satan not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is his puppet along with other things. You would have to watch the series from the beginning where he states who the actual enemy is. It is very thoroughly researched. Mark goes into great detail as to the roots are of many things. I hope you watch it before making accusations.
            Blessings

          • pax2u

            does your denomination teach that the Catholic Church is the puppet of Satan?

          • jennylynn

            I don’t belong to any denomination. I belong to Jesus Christ. And His word teaches us to test all things by His word and not follow after doctrines of man.
            1 Timothy 6:3-5
            If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the doctrine confirming to godliness he is conceited and understands nothing; but has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprive of truth who suppose godliness is a means of gain.

            The Catholic Church teaches a different doctrine with some similarities. It was started in the 3-4th century and it began out of political gain. Test their teachings by the Word of God and you will understand.

          • pax2u

            I am never surprised that those who hate the Catholic Church have no denomination, 30 thousand to choose from and I am thank ful that you are alone

          • pax2u

            I avoid crazy conspiracy theory web sites

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No, posting trashy anti-Catholic YouTube videos isn’t going to “help” anyone. It really bothers you that they are the biggest Christian group in the world, doesn’t it?

          • pax2u

            I find it interesting the anti Catholic hatred, such as the Catholic Church is the puppet of satan, from someone with out a denomination, followed by the cutesy,

            Blessings!

          • BeWhoYouAre

            They usually “post and run” – they aren’t interested in hearing from Catholic Christians, so they cover their ears and run away.

          • pax2u

            true, no denomination or doctrine to defend, just their hatred of Catholics, I do find it common in the anti Catholics to now post you tube videos to defend their hatred of Christians, very sad

          • BeWhoYouAre

            And ALWAYS for the wrong reasons, things they don’t understand or things they misinterpret. Ever “worshipped” Mary? I know I haven’t. But they will insist I do.

          • Rosavera

            If you want to learn about Catholics then go to a Catholic site, of course other sites will contradict the truth and tell the lies of Protestants…

          • Neiman

            That is just stupid!

          • Rosavera

            Of course, and thank you for calling me stupid, shows how you and others who use derogatory words really are all about..

          • Neiman

            I never called you stupid, only what you said.

          • pax2u

            or a Jew referring to Martin Luther and his book, “on the Jews and their Lies”

          • pax2u

            Maybe he attended the Jack Chick hate comic book web site and theological seminary?

          • pax2u

            sad, but words do have meaning

            I honor the American Flag, I honor my Parents, I honor Mary

            I do not worship the American Flag, I do not worship my Parents, I do not worship Mary

            do you honor the American Flag?

          • Neiman

            Do I honor the American flag? Well my family on both sides since the American Revolution have fought in virtually every war on behalf of America, under its flag and during the Vietnam War, I served in United States Marine Corps. Does that answer your question?

            Please show me in Scripture a single word or passage that tells us we should pray to Mary or that by praying she can intercede on our behalf. Show me from Scripture where Mary has any more influence with God than any other precious child of God that are in heaven. Show me any justification for praying to any, falsely – called Saints, elevated to that status by any Pope.

            When Catholics pray to Mary daily, when they pray to her multiple times in the rosary, when they name their church buildings after Mary, when they construct graven images of Mary and she is ever present throughout every mass, please explain how that is not Mary worship. Did you know that John Paul II wanted to elevate Mary as a co-– Redeemer with Christ and that Pope Francis says that unless we accept Mary as our mother, we cannot be saved? Sorry, but by all appearances Catholics have raised Mary to equal status with Jesus and it is clearly worship.

          • pax2u

            you did not answer a simple yes or no question

            do you honor the American Flag?

          • Neiman

            I did answer it, just not as you would demand, but it was crystal clear.

            Why should I answer, you never answer my questions – not ever.

          • pax2u

            so you honor the American Flag as much as john kerry, and any other veteran who hated his country

          • pax2u

            john kerry served in viet nam does john kerry honor the American Flag?

            has anyone ever, EVER asked you to pray for them, or would you reject their request to pray for another?

          • pax2u

            please cite official Catholic theological doctrine that Mary is worshiped as God, if you can not your statement is either made in ignorance or is a will full lie, and a lie is a sin against God

            which is it an ignorant statement or a lie?

            I understand why you have no denomination

          • Neiman

            Before you start making demands, first you answer my long ago asked question, where in Scripture you find any justification

          • pax2u

            sorry to expect you do defend you lies, I am sorry to get in the way of your bigotry

          • pax2u

            so I never answered any of you questions?

            I ask all Christians here to pray for your soul

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Neiman
          • pax2u

            try to use the Bible rather than a web site, it works for Christians

          • pax2u

            John 2

            1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there,2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

            4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

            5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

            6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing,each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

            7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

            8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

            They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

            11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

          • Neiman
          • pax2u

            sad that you can not answer a question, are you going to reference the Jack Chick hate comic web site next?

            I ask all Christians here to pray for your soul

          • pax2u

            James 5:16

            Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working

          • pax2u

            we are told to pray for each other

            James 5:16

            Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

            but I can understand why NO ONE would ever ask someone like you to pray for them

          • pax2u

            prove that this is true, with a direct citation

            “Pope Francis says that unless we accept Mary as our mother, we cannot be saved? ”

            or you are a liar

          • Neiman
          • pax2u

            sad that you can not defend your bigotry with your own thoughts

          • pax2u

            Did Jesus do as Mary asked at the Marriage of Cana

          • Neiman

            That has nothing to do with her now or her interceding for sinner. He even upbraided her for asking him as it was not yet His time and when she came where He was eating, He said His disciples were His mother and siblings.

          • pax2u

            I believe that the holy who die that their souls are alive in heaven

            sad that you do not believe in heaven

            waiting for your link to a website or you tube video since you have no theology or denomination

          • Don

            Tell me do you think you can be who you are in hell? Cause that’s where your going. The BIBLE is THEE only WORD of GOD so that’s the only WORD that counts!!! AND GOD is the ONLY AUTHORITY if your following an apostate church then your already lost get right with God not the poop cause only God can keep your ass outta hell not the poop!!! And before you think you know it all dit wad I GREW UP CATHOLIC SO I KNOW WHAT BEING A CATHOLIC IS AND I ALSO KNOW YOU NEVER GET THE WHOLE STORY THEY KEEP YOU AT ARMS LENGHTH FROM GOD I NOW HAVE A ONE ON ONE RELATIONSHIP WITH MY LORD JESUS CHRIST!!! And you have nada!

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Firstly, you’re not God, you don’t get to send people to hell. Sorry charlie. Secondly screaming at me in huge capital letters is going to get you nowhere, thirdly no you were not Catholic if you believe any of the BS that’s being spouted here. Bye.

          • Don

            I’m not sending you to hell your sending yourself there dumb ass. And that’s right I’m NOT CATHOLIC ANYMORE I GRADUATED TO A TRUE AND FULL CHRISTIAN IF YOU WERE A CHRISTIAN OR CATHOLIC YOU WOULD KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT TAKE YOUR HEAD OUTTA YOUR ARSSS AND YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY LEARN SMETHING. 🙂 AND YOU WILL STILL END UP IN HELL FACT.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            It’s not a fact, it’s a product of your paranoid revenge fantasy. You don’t get to send anyone to hell. YOU ARE NOT GOD. Understand now?

          • Rosavera

            Looking at how you address another human being and the choice words you use shows how right being Catholic is…! No, BeWhoYouAre will not end up in hell and you cannot be the judge of that…! Are you that blind not to see your words are condemning you …?

          • Rosavera

            There are a lot more protestants that are converting to Catholicism and they say about the lies they were being professed to… do you not see that we are all following Christ and that your actions and those like you is the devil’s work to separate us all , to make us fight all so the devil can laugh..?

        • Candace

          I think we all know that Catholics believe in the literal accounts of the Holy Scriptures and the miracles of Christ and the Creation in Genesis (by Jesus who was in the beginning (John1)). Catholics also believe in the Virgin Birth of Christ and the bodily resurrection of Lord Jesus and the substitutionary/atoning death of Jesus on the Cross (see their Crucifix in every church). She didn’t usurp any right to determine what was normal by any thing she stated. She simply challenged your sources. And I have to wonder by this response if you are trying to say that Catholics don’t believe these things – if that is what you are suggesting, I too ask you to cite your sources, because I have had many long time friends and have become very familiar with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

          • Neiman

            First of all, I’m not sure who you were referring to when you say “she.” If you are referring to the singer, didn’t she once say that she didn’t need Jesus to die for her sins, that her sins were her own business? If that is true, it is a denial of Christ and she cannot possibly be saved. What place does such a person have in any meeting sponsored by Christians, other than her repenting and turning to Christ?

            It is easy to say that one believes in the Holy Scriptures, the miracles of Christ and the Virgin birth and the resurrection of Christ, while they can have wholly different interpretations of what those words mean. If you ask someone from the Jehovah Witness Church if they believe in Jesus, they will answer in the affirmative, but their Jesus is not God the Son come in the flesh, he is in reality the Archangel Michael. If you ask a Mormon if they believe in Jesus you will have a very strong answer in the affirmative, but their Jesus is not the eternal and Almighty God, but one of many spiritual children procreated between a Mormon God and Mary. Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and can save no one. So one must make a very careful examination of how particular people or organizations define words, in the case of alleged Christian people or organizations, we must know who their Jesus is.

            You mentioned the crucifix, wherein their Jesus is still on the cross, while Christians know he died and was resurrected and is no longer on that cross. The biblical Jesus died once for all the sins of the whole world, while the Catholic Jesus is present literally in the wafer (body) and in the wine (blood) and is sacrificed over and over again in the communion. http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Eucharist.html

            I could go on but as we break down the many false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, we find how they define things are wholly different than what Christ and the apostles taught.

            Did you know that the current Pope has said that no one can be saved unless they accept to Mary as their mother? Did you know that Pope John Paul II was working very hard to have the Catholic Church recognize Mary as a co-redemptor with Christ, making her equal to Christ? Contrary to his statement about Mary, the current Pope says that even atheists, if they are good people, can gain heaven by their good works and thus do not need faith in Christ? The Roman Catholic Church does not just teach some things we might consider heterodox views, rather they have become apostate.

          • Rosavera

            There is a lot of hate in you and you only keep on repeating the same mantra that all protestants do when demonizing another Christian… are you so perfect that you have the right to go against another Christian when even our Lord Jesus said to His apostles not to…?

          • Neiman

            There is not hate in me, only in your own heart.

            What Christian am I demonizing?

          • Rosavera

            your words show the hate you and your church have for all Catholics, and as a Catholic i feel sorry for you for you really don’t know what you are doing…

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

        Your name says “BeWhoYouAre” but I highly doubt that you support that premise, because if you did, then you would have no problem with Neiman being a fundamentalist…he is after all, just being who he is!

        • BeWhoYouAre

          You can be a fundamentalist without attacking Catholics, which is something Neiman seems incapable of doing, but since he shows practically no understanding of Catholicism nor its practices, I suspect he’s going for attention seeking.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            But what if attacking Catholics is part of who he is as a person? You wouldn’t want him to deny who he really is do you? You don’t want to be painted as a hypocrite like the rest of them right? So just let people be themselves.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            He can do that all he likes. But he can also fully expect people to correct him where he’s in error.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            That is so intolerant! Don’t you know people have freedom of speech? Why are you imposing your ways on others? This isn’t communist russia!

          • BeWhoYouAre

            haha

          • pax2u

            so we should be tolerant of those who are filled with hatred and lie about the beliefs of others?

            we should forgive them
            we should pray for their souls
            we should pity them their ignorance

          • pax2u

            you are correct, a bigot is as a bigot does

            hatred of others is part of what some people are

    • Don

      Neiman pay these idiots no mind cause frankly they have no mind themselves. I grew up Catholic, and while I have nothing against those who like me really believed in Christ, we were not taught to have a real relationship with the Lord, most people I know who came out of Catholic schools and who were taken to church either said out right that they didn’t believe in God or who acted more like the devil then the devil himself. Basically kids who went the way of the Catholic church were screwed up so ya have to have a little sympathy for that at least. But not everyone who grew up Catholic went down that wrong road. As for patti smith there was only ever one song of hers I ever liked now that I’m older and wiser, thank you Lord, I know better. She like every other twisted hollyweirdo are lost maybe forever. As for the Roman church …… well if you know the book of Revelation you already know who and what that poop really is, no wasn’t spelling it wrong he is the POOP, since I grew up in God, meaning becoming a born again Christian, I know now what I didn’t as a Catholic. To you who are Catholic all I can say is stop following a man start following God. And no being a Christian is not a “cult” and no its not “converting” going from Catholic to Christian only means your growing up as a follower of God that’s all. Go look things up and see what I mean. I walked on both sides of this fence so I know what I’m saying so don’t be so defensive about it.

      • Neiman

        I have always tried to make it clear that any Catholic who by the grace of God, came to salvation by faith in Christ alone, and even that by his faith; and, are caught up in some of the false teachings of the Catholic Church, if they have truly been converted from idols, they are by every definition Christians and have eternal life. If any of them are looking to the Catholic Church to save them, if they are looking to Mary to play any role in their salvation and if they are trying in any way to earn their salvation, I fear for their souls. My grievance is with the myriad of false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and by those teachings leading precious souls away from an intimate one – on – one relationship with Jesus Christ.

        I am absolutely convinced and I pray that I have God’s mind on the matter that, the Roman Catholic Church is not only thoroughly apostate, but it is the Great Whore spoken of in the book of Revelations and that the many popes are sitting in the place of the false prophet and they are playing a major role in creating the end times false church. I have sincere pity and compassion for everyone in the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church that have become so blind and have turned away from a pure devotion to Christ.

        Whether they be genuinely converted to Christ or be they deceived by the Roman Catholic Church, whether they be laity or the priesthood, they are in my prayers.

  • Phipps Mike

    ” The committee Portosalvo called for a rock star to be banned from performing at a local church in Naples, stating that bringing rock music into a “consecrated” building would be “blasphemy.”
    that STATEMENT is blasphemy. Rock music isn’t just about its LYRICS, Its a STYLE of music. The whole premise that rock is evil is quite possibly the dumbest thing to EVER come out of Christians mouths.
    Now I DO think that Patti Smith’s hair will start smoking when she walks into the Vatican though…lol.

    • Neiman

      Only people that are dedicated to the Lord and who can understand the difference between good and evil can see and understand how a little bit of leaven can permeate the whole loaf. No matter the kind of music, the more popular that music might be, if it is based upon sexual imagery, coarse language, violence and rebellion against God, no matter how innocent it might appear on the surface, little by little it creeps into the psyche, it hardens the heart of the performer and the listener to all that is holy and draws them surely toward sin and the way from holiness. It is like the old saying “garbage in – garbage out.”

      Let me give you an example that I have witnessed in my lifetime, even though it is not directly a music oriented example. I remember when Playboy magazine first came out, remember the old excuse I only buy it for the articles, while it had soft pornographic sexual images, other than Bible believing Christians, it quickly became quite popular and seemed fairly innocent to most people, seeming to not really harm anyone. Then the next magazine that was published in that venue, was more crude, more pornographic and while it caused a stir for short time, as did Playboy, it too was quickly accepted in our culture as being fairly innocent, not harmful, not destructive. Whether it was in magazines or in bars in larger cities, over a very few decades it morphed from innocent soft pornography Playboy images into topless dancers, topless- bottomless dancers, simulated sex acts all the way to the dancers engaging in sexual stimulation with the patrons. While the magazines became not just X-rated, but triple X, incest related, sadomasochistic, bestiality and worse. The little leaven of Playboy magazine, ushered in a multibillion dollar a year pornography industry, it all contributed to the sexual revolution of the 1960s, which included making homosexuality acceptable. I will not go on with all of the other horrible, negative consequences of winking at the little leaven of a soft porn magazine, but my point is what seemed fairly innocent at the start, played a role in the moral disintegration of America.

      So while rock music, which found its start at around the same time as Playboy magazine, seemed by today’s standards, as being quite innocent, once it got into the American culture and into the minds of young people, it too played its part in destroying America’s moral values and even corrupting the Christian church. For the Pope to be so ignorant or uncaring as to invite a person who has denigrated Christ, uses gross sexual imagery and coarse language, only shows, it proves, that he is compromising with sin and he is playing his part in kneading the leaven of sin into the hearts and minds of our young people and turning them away from God and his call for holy living.

      Rock music is not evil you say? It has been well documented that the beat of the music plays a role in sexual stimulation and with the lyrics, corrupts everyone involved and that for most of them, to their everlasting destruction. Not evil? You could not be more wrong if you tried.

      • Phipps Mike

        I cant BELIEVE you believe what you just typed in that last paragraph. First, you need to keep my WORDS in context. I said rock music in ITSELF is not evil and I even pointed out that I am not talking about the lyrics. Rock was born in the 50’s and it was NOT considered “sexual” or satanic, Rather it was considered music that made people “loosen up” aka get the sticks OUT of their you know whats. Music is my expertise and I am a drummer. The person that PLAYS that beat and guess what? It doesn’t “turn me on” sexually. I consider it FUN, Its my replacement for dancing. Going by your “gateway” reasoning…ALL forms of music are evil except Gospel. Then what of Christian rock? dare you say that it shouldn’t be used to spread Gods Word?
        I would lay bets that YOU listen to rock or have in the past. All of the 50’s oldies are rock. The beach boys, Bill Haley, Big Bopper etc are ALL rock. I also want you to PROVE b y a RELIABLE source that ALL rock beats plays a role in sexual stimulation, I can guarantee I will hear the crickets chirping before that happens, Especially since many rock beats are FUSIONS of OTHER beats such as Jazz etc…
        Hate to say this Neiman but you sound as discombobulated as Fred Phelps or that crazy guy down the street with that last paragraph.

        • Neiman

          I am no better than anyone else, I listened to 50s – 60s rock music, but I was not as sensitive to the Spirit in those days, I had no spiritual discernment.

          I don’t blame you for defending music you like it and do not see any evil in it. I am against Christian rock as well. Not wanting it banned, just aware of its destructive nature, people I love dearly love Rock music. As I said, it is not just Rock Music, but I have seen its role in the moral decay of society and I cannot see anything good about it; but, mine is a lonely voice in seeing that so much around us corrupts us. Yet, this lady is more than just the music, her blasphemy, her crude language and general imagery certainly has no place in or around the Church.

          • Phipps Mike

            au contraire. I DO see the evil in CERTAIN SUB GENRES of rock music. Death Metal (glorifies death and violence), punk rock (rebellious), a lot of hair metal if not all (sex drugs and rock n roll is the central lyrics base in hair metal) and some mainstream pop rock today have evil messages if you use Christian reasoning. My beef with your statement is saying that rock BEATS (drumming) is ALL sexual. That’s a HUGE no no and it doesn’t even BEGIN to make sense. Certain drumming is primal and can roust people to rowdiness, but its NOT a sexual thing and in fact, the strippers would strip to “swing” jazz drumming style. (burlesque and otherwise) The standard 8 beat which is the foundation rock beat is straight forward, has NO swing and is COMPLETLY non sexual and is used on MOST pop rock songs. I should know, I am a drummer. Attack the lyrics and I wont bat a lash, attack my BEATS and you are asking for an instant enemy. Musical NOTES are NOT sexual. Lyrics CAN be. I agree with your take on Patti Smith, The first I knew about her was in the mid 70s when she did “Because the Night” which is a good song but she was known for being in a adult magazine prior to being a singer and the DJ’s touted that fact.

          • Jesse

            Phipps; I think I slightly agree, there is no reason to state that just because a certain beat sounds good to the ear, that it is somehow the cause of sin or sexual infidelity. I never heard of Patti, but I do agree that many of the lyrics I have heard are unacceptable.

          • Jesse

            What does spiritual discernment have to do with your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit? Spiritual discernment is one of the ‘gifts’ of the Holy Spirit that is given to believers according to what the Spirit thinks is needed to promote the gospel of Christ, & has little or nothing to do anyone’s perception of popular music and it’s relationship to sin.

          • Neiman

            It is unfortunate that you don’t seem very interested in the full revelation of divine truth, but only select isolated passages that you can use against people of faith.

            “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” I Corinthians 2:14

            While a special ministerial gift is discernment, it is also a gift of the Spirit for every true believer, everyone that is born again of His Spirit and thereby they all have in them the Divine guidance of the Lord in discerning good from evil, in receiving and understanding the things of God – Divine Truth. That includes perceiving how the devil uses popular culture to draw people away from God, in being sensitive to things that otherwise seem harmless, but which in truth only lead to destruction.

            I cannot and will not change your mind, you will reject everything I have written. Yet, I am not concerned with your acceptance or rejection, only be faithful to God and seeking to be sensitive to His Spirit.

          • Jesse

            How did you determine what interests me and what doesn’t, and how did you determine that I wanted to have something to use against people of faith, and how did you win the job of judging strangers as to whether they are your brothers in Christ or an example of a ‘natural man’? If you had just went to five minutes trouble and solved the complaint on that other blog string you wouldn’t have all these mistaken assumptions. If you were really guided by the Holy Spirit, He wouldn’t have let you cause all this trouble.

          • Neiman

            “the Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of judgment about them? Christians are often accused of “judging” whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, “Do not judge.” There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise—with careful discernment “(John 7:24).

            How are we to know who a brother is but by his words and actions, whereby we must make some judgments about the spirit within? You made it clear that you had judged me wrong about the word discernment and not only was it not the gift to every child of God, but that I had to be wrong in applying such spiritual judgment to rock music. That was an attack against me, without just cause as the Bible speaks more of discernment that just as a special gift and it also calls us to make righteous judgments about things around us every day.

            On that other thread, I made it clear I was reacting to your comments and if you thought I made a mistake about who was saying what, you could have in kindness copied and pasted the words that would correct any misunderstandings on my part, yet as is your habit, IMO you chose to engage in personal animosity and ridicule and when I would not submit and play your game, you got angry and remain angry.

          • Jesse

            See how you are? Every thinking human being is blessed with at least a minor degree of discernment to use everyday. It is not related to being sealed by or baptized in the Holy Spirit.
            Pointing out someones error is not an “attack”, and i do not attack even if given ‘just cause’.
            Also you have no way of concluding what any of my “habits” might be, after only one exchange where you falsely accused me of several things and refused to support your claims.
            Now you are saying that it was my responsibility to show you the source of YOUR misunderstandings, and since I’m a much better guy than you I will certainly do just that.
            Watch your mail…

          • Neiman

            There is natural discernment which is terribly flawed and that which only comes by the Holy Spirit. I repeat this passage:

            “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
            for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because
            they are spiritually discerned.”
            I Corinthians 2:14

            Now if you choose to ignore and discount God’s Word, that is your free will choice.

            As the balance of your screed (a written rant), the offense by you is already past and I am no longer interested, so don’t waste your time.

        • Candace

          Do you think God wants you to ‘loosen up’ to be righteous? or do you think the devil wants you to ‘loosen up’ to be prepared for the sin that crouches at the door?

          • Phipps Mike

            I think God wants us to RELAXXXXXXX…know what I mean? I am sure you know that loosen up means to let your hair down, loosen your tie…etc…AKA not be NEUROTIC

      • Rose

        I think I laughed a little bit too much at this comment… Not that I don’t take you seriously, but the generalization is a bit much. While there are some rock songs that are indeed evil, there are some that are perfectly fine and fit in with an average Christian’s beliefs. I do agree with you in your statement that music can sometimes trap you and stray people away from their beliefs, but not all of it does. Everyone is different, and everyone has a different taste in music. My guess is that rock is not your taste, while rock is indeed in my taste. I’m perfectly okay in my walk with God and listening to rock music. In fact, it gives me a little more kick in my step when I’m feeling down.

        • Neiman

          I can’t tell anyone else what to think, my weaknesses and sins are about all I can handle and there is always the possibility that I stated my case too strongly. Yet, even when I was young back in the 50s and rock ‘n roll was born and when many strong Bible believing ministers were speaking out against rock music, it bothered me when I heard them being ridiculed. Even though I liked a lot of that, shall we say, softer rock music, in my heart I believed that some of the concerns being expressed had the ring of truth about them.

          Coming as a baby from the years of the great war and living through what were in many ways a more idyllic time in America of the late 40s and 50s, being raised as a preacher’s kid, I sensed that rock music signaled a change, however slight, a coarsening of public discourse and an abandonment of Christian morality was being born. Being young and enjoying life, I didn’t get very worked up about it and as I said, to some degree I too was caught up in the changing culture, yet I somehow knew the direction America was taking was away from God. I don’t target rock music as the sole cause, but I knew that it was playing a major role in changing America and that not for the good.

          I witnessed during that time the birth of pornography, the Supreme Court taking God out of the public square, making him persona non grata in all of our affairs. I saw the birth of the sexual revolution, the drug culture, riots, assassinations, the most unpopular war in American history – our first great military loss and the beginnings of the culture of death, resulting in our own American Holocaust which has slaughtered over 55 million innocent babies in the womb. I have witnessed the liberal war against Christ and his church and a national embracing of the homosexual lifestyle and gay marriage.

          All of this was born when rock ‘n roll at the same time rock music came on the American scene. While there can be exceptions, I really can’t honestly say that rock ‘n roll has made any positive contribution and I believe it is destructive of our nation. No, it isn’t all the fault of rock ‘n roll, there are many contributing factors and virtually no part of the entertainment industry does not share some of the responsibility.

          When I hear Christians talk about something that has played a major role in the coarsening of our culture and its hyper sexualization and violence, as being of value in their Christian lives, I am always saddened that Jesus is not enough. Yet, as God’s word tells us that no one is righteous, that no one is good, I do understand why the human heart turns ever so slightly away from total dependence on Him and they have a need to lean upon the world to meet the emotional needs. But, this as all just my personal opinion and I don’t ask anyone else share those beliefs.

          • Rose

            I understand where you’re getting at, and I know you’re not asking anyone to share your beliefs. I’m just trying to give you another view on the idea. It aches me when people generalize too much; like when people generalize Christians as saints and atheists as aggressive. It just seems to me that people pay attention too much to the negative influence a thing has on others, and never pay attention to the positive. My opinion is, you should either look at both sides or none at all. Not that this really contributes to the conversation at all, but it’s a side we fail to see most of the time. Though other than that, I can say that I agree with everything you said, that people think Jesus isn’t enough and such.

          • Neiman

            First, may I please point out that every Christian is called a saint in God’s Word. It does not imply a special elevation by a Pope, nor does it imply superior righteousness in thought or conduct, but that being washed in the blood of the lamb and being thereby a member of the Body of Christ, in spirit, each believer is associated forever with Christ.

            Let me also please point out that if anything has the most tiny fragment of sin in it, thus even in the most fractional manner polluted, no lasting, spiritual good can possibly result. The smallest amount of leaven works through the whole loaf. If we see and applaud a rock star hold a benefit for the poor and hungry of the world, as the glory for the temporal good done goes to the person, Jesus is robbed of the glory that belongs to Him alone. If the people are fed food for the body, but because Christ is absent in the gift, they are left in their sins and there is no spiritual benefit. So when we look for the good, if we find there is no lasting, eternal good, how can it be good at all?

            It is most severe to thus refuse to look for any good in that which in whole is not good at all, but for the Christian only that which benefits the soul, which draws one closer to Christ and eternal life with God can possibly be any good, all else pales in importance. It makes us suspect and mostly hated by the world, but for me at least, it is standing on God’s Word and for the love of the lost, that sin may be known as sin and acknowledgment of sin leads one to seek a Savior and that leads to Christ that has any real value.

          • Rose

            Ummmm…. we’re not God… we’re human. We’re prone to sin. It’s in our nature. Nothing a human naturally can do with zero effort is good. The exception is us accepting God and God working in us. And good and bad are two sides of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other. Bad is the absence of good, and vise versa. To say that Christians are on a whole other level than everyone else in terms of morality is both wrong and right. Everyone is human, and the difference between us and them is God with us.

          • Neiman

            The Christian in Spirit are in Christ, they share in His Righteousness and Holiness and are perfect in a moral sense; yet, we are also still in our mortal bodies (human) and as we walk in the flesh, we are as sinful as the next fellow, myself much worse that most, as Paul said of himself, a chief.

            God tells us to come out from among them (people of the world) and be ye separate, not that we can come out entirely from the world, as we would have to die to escape its evil influences, but to not walk with them as brothers and sisters, to avoid all their influences by spending much time in the Word and Prayer. In the world, but not of it, being separate from them and their influences. That includes not being involved with their pastimes wherein is evil, but to have our minds on the things of Christ that we might not be stained by their evil. You may interpret that any way you choose.

          • Rose

            I agree with you.

          • T C

            Agree, see my post above.

          • T C

            Just a point to make in reference to whether we are saints or saints and sinners. We are actually both…all humans are sinners but not all humans are saints. We are saints only by the blood of Jesus and are considered sanctified by Him…only because of Him. Go to the same site you referenced above..gotquestions and that is what they say which is wise and to the point. All humans are sinners but not all humans are saints…says it perfectly.

          • Candace

            Neiman – I thank you for writing the truth and explaining what you have witnessed.

            I was born in 1961 and as I grew up in a household who’s parents were raised in Church, but had fallen into apostasy – I can vouch for what you say 1st hand. Alcoholism, pornographic materials, smoking, profanity surrounded my life growing up. Not being raised in church or taught to know the Bible.

            I wsa 28 when I finally heard the gospel – although I believed in God from a childhood encounter at age 11. I never knew I needed Jesus until I heard the gospel at a Baptist revival service.

            But I admit I had developed a lot of compromises by age 28 and I was not as quick to shed them as I should have been.

            May God bless you.

          • Neiman

            Thank you for your very kind words.

            I am so pleased that by the merciful gift that comes by God’s grace alone and that by faith alone, in Christ alone that you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. All the old things have passed away and behold all things have become new in your life. I’m assuming you’ve been taught correctly, as the Baptist church is generally very sound in their doctrines, that you are already a part and that forever, of the glorious body of Christ. That in spirit you are now and will forever be seated with Christ in heaven. That you are now in spirit and you shall be for ever, before all creation, inseparably identified with Jesus. There is nothing on earth, beneath the earth or in heaven that will ever be able to separate you from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus. You are not figuratively, but literally a child of God, He is not figuratively, but literally your Father. Almighty God looks upon you as his dearly beloved child and he rejoices in every opportunity to bless you, now and forever

            I have no animosity towards any Catholic, I sincerely believe that many of them who trust in Jesus alone for their salvation, who truly believe in Him are Christians, albeit they are in bondage to many of the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

            Lastly, I’m sad to report that all Christians compromise their faith in varying degrees, but I thank God we have a Holy Advocate before the throne of God in our Savior Jesus Christ, Who ever lives to serve his body, to sanctify us and make us whole. May God bless you in every possible way in this life and even more abundantly, as I know He will, throughout eternity. Whether we will know we ever communicated or not in this life, we will see each other in heaven.

        • Candace

          Rose – I know what you mean about selecting the “good” music from the genre.

          As I was growing up I had a (God given) affinity to shy away from bad lyrics …I would selectively listen to only the songs that I felt were uplifting, as you put it.

          Then I started discovering that the ALBUM CUTS shockingly included songs that were not good at all. I felt disappointed, betrayed/gypped. The GOOD music was just a teaser to lure me into buying that artists albums, where I would get a real taste of the stuff they really did.

          There was a time that I fluctuated and withdrew from radio and then I said well I will just not buy albums and I will keep my mental appeasement that the radio tracks are selectively good and I can turn the station when I don’t like a song.

          And that worked for me for a while. But as the radio has relaxed its standards, the good music has changed. I found myself seeking stations that play nostalgic music that was much cleaner.

          As my relationship with God has grown steadily – and I have learned to use the scriptures as the template and filter for my life I would say that I too became an average Christian.

          Then some personal crisis hit and now I needed real inspiration and during a personal health crisis I found NO comfort in any “good” music. It brought things into sharp focus for me.

          THE DEFINING MOMENT WITH MY MUSIC WAS WHEN I FINALLY ASKED MYSELF *** DOES THIS GLORIFY GOD? ***

          and futhermore, DOES THIS DRAW ITS INSPIRATION FROM THE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE MEANT TO PROVIDE US INSPIRATION.?

          I now get more “kick” and inspiration when I read the scriptures and listen to music that includes the scriptures.

          I give up my old ideas of what is good/normal and yielded to what glorifies God. Now its hard to listen to some of the popular Christian songs because they are going off track from the scriptures.

          There is a popular misinterpretation of the verse, “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty (freedom)”. That verse doesn’t mean that the Spirit of God ushers in the freedom to compromise or draw inspiration from man/worldly sources. Totally opposite, It means that the Spirit of the Lord delivers us from bondage to the world and the mental blindness that causes us to compromise and seek inspiration from man and not from God and the Holy Scriptures.

          my personal testamony

          • Rose

            Umm… I don’t think you understand what I mean by good music. I don’t really buy albums so I don’t have to deal with their little ‘trap’. I listen to music that goes along with my values. And I’ve felt spiritual illness listening to some music, but not the ones I listen to today. Other than that, great testimony.

        • Candace

          as for what Neiman has written here –

          he has told the exact truth. I grew up in this timeframe he speaks of and in fact the music and sexually explicit literature has impacted many lives – inlcuding lives of my own family members.

          in fact this sexual revolution has given rise to the AS FOR WHAT Neiman wrote , he is telling it exactly right. I can tell you that I witnessed this same progression as he describes. In fact it touched my life personally.

          I couldn’t have described it any better than he did.

          I WOULD GO EVEN FURTHER than Neiman…

          This onslaught of the sexual revolution has given rise to the current American Holocaust carried out in ABORTION CLINICS – established to remedy all the “accidental pregnancies”. This evil genocide has taken the lives of over 50-MILLION innocent babies since 1973. ((BTW This is exactly what tipped God’s hand of judgement against Israel. They started killing babies as a socially approved practice.))

          And the pornography is giving rise to the SEX TRAFFIC INDUSTRY which is make so much money its about to eclipse the illegal drug trade/industry.

          I think its very important for all of us to evaluate whether we are really in tune with what is overtaking our society.

          Its a serious matter. And Neiman has told the truth.

      • Jesse

        This blog on desensitizing the public to accept sin is interesting and mostly factual, it especially applies to the “queer” agenda. That is exactly how they gained all their ‘special’ rights and got the government to pay attention to their demands, even though the general public was not nearly as receptive to their perverted message. On the subject of music, I have listened to a lot of it even though I’m not near as old as you are, but I can’t agree that it is the cause of even ‘most’ of the desensitizing that has went on. Some of it, especially lately, has been really filthy and violence oriented, and I happily condemn it. Some of it has also been tolerable love songs as well as presenting other opinions that are considered normal and acceptable.

        • Neiman

          I never said Rock music was the cause of “most” of this desensitization of the people, but I do insist that it played a key role in the shift of our culture away from God, it was no coincidence that rock’s birth and its ascendance, accompanied at the exact same time with the introduction of soft core pornography to the culture and very soon thereafter the nation’s highest court declaring God persona non grata in all our affairs, the sexual revolution, the drug culture and many other great evils that closely followed. Rock music was a major player on the stage and if it did not seem all that evil at first and that some of it was seemingly good, it is because the enemy of our souls knows it is better to do things slowly, getting people to swallow a tiny bit of evil mouthful by mouthful increasing the dosage ever so slowly until without notice, we have unconsciously swallowed death. It is akin to that spoonful of suger to make the medicine go down, only in this case to make his evil more palatable.

          We cannot hope even if the evil is small, almost unnoticeable, that any good can possibly come from it.

      • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

        While I agree with you about the porn issue, I wonder how you can denigrate drums and guitars. Alone these instruments will not create imagery or feelings of lust, etc. It is the words which gave Rock n Roll its namesake – from the euphemism of sex back then.

        How is it you can so correctly identify desire for porn as the lynchpin of America’s moral degradation, but get hung up on RnR? You could take porn and strippers all the way back to the Ba’als and Asherah poles. Its fundamentally Satan worship, when you get down to it.

      • Candace

        Neiman – I partly disagree with your statement. Yes there are many who dont grasp the difference between what is holy and righteous and what is unholy and unrighteous.

        However, there are people who fully know they are not doing right in the sight of God – – and they do know they are sinning and doing what is wicked – – by virtue of the fact they had godly parents who taught them about God and taught them the difference. Yet they knowingly enter into sin and continue in it.

        • Neiman

          First, I am not looking for anyone to agree with me about anything, I am stating my opinions, take them or leave them, it is your free will choice.

          I am sorry, I do not get where there is a difference in our opinions, I guess I am just too obtuse.

    • Candace

      Rock music – RAP – RnB – etc. etc. They are ALL ABOUT the lyrics and the lifestyle (not just the musical flavor). The style of music is meant to underscore the difference the lyrics express in a person’s life or way of living. Its a STATEMENT in music about the way a person seeks to live and things they hold important. The music simply sets the mood of the message in the lyrics. And the lyrics which are ALL ABOUT that lifestyle of rebellion to the morals of established society, and indulging in drugs, immoral sex, even detestable acts, general self-indulgence, and many are explicitly anti-christ, etc.

      Rock Music (and other styles) are expressing a generally godless way of living your life – a godless lifestyle – or a compromised lifestyle. And the call to ban rock music is based on this correct understanding that the messages in the lyrics and the things it promotes are clearly in direct opposition to everything that God calls holy and sacred.

      A blasphemous statement that Patti made/recorded in her music was where she said Jesus died for sins, but no for hers (basically a clear statement that she open rejects Jesus as her personal Savior – rejects the sacrificial atonement that Jesus purchased for everyone including Patti.) Patti has not confessed Christ as her Savior as far as is evident. For example, she uses profanity to attack those who oppose her performing on legitimate grounds. This is just as much an indication of her lack of repentance as what she didn’t say. She didn’t say,//20 years ago I was a rebellious person walking away from God and rejecting Jesus, as you know; but I am repenting – I was completely wrong about what I did and said. I now know that Jesus did die for my sins and I have accepted Him as my personal Savior.// But she hasnt expressed nor does she exhibit any true signs of making a full repentance – therefore she should definitely not perform in a holy place.

      its completely beyond me why the Pope and further more why any of the attending cardinals would agree to this. It is a ceremonial unclean act. It defiles the Pope and the leadership of the Catholic Church and the Catholic people should be protesting vigorously!!!

      If she was openly repenting from her open rejection of Jesus and was confessing Him as her Savior and Lord, it would be a different thing. But then if she was truly saved she would put away a style of music that does not glorify God. But she isn’t. She is only saying she doesn’t want her blasphemous and anti-christ professions and lifestyle to be held up to the light and expose why she should not perform.

      She has clearly demonstrated that she still hasn’t repented and come clean from her lifestyle.

      • Phipps Mike

        “The style of music is meant to underscore the difference the lyrics express in a person’s life or way of living.”

        that statement clearly shows me that you are not a musician or at least you don’t WRITE music. It wreaks of rhetorical mimicking coming from what I call Jesus freaks (comparable to Fred Phelps).

        While your statement is PARTIALLY true: (Jim Morrison wanted to put his poetry to music in order to give the FULL depth he was trying to convey so he used music as the “mood” to back his lyrics.), its not ALL the way true, If you take music theory, you would understand that many composers are good lyricists but have to FIND music to fit the mechanics of the lyrics…etc…

        Add to that when that composer runs out of ideas on what MUSIC to use, they try to figure out something new and then dub it as a “progressive” move in their music.

        Some add classical music such as Ozzy, to give it new sound.

        Simply put, you CANNOT say that the MUSICAL notes are up for censorship. That’s a VERY ridiculous way of thinking. I understand that LYRICS can be harmful, but NOT music. By your reasoning, a 1 year old can get damaging morals from just an instrumental song. That’s just STUPID.

        As far as Patti Smith, you can rank on her as much as you like and I wont care a bit. I know she’s trash. However, i do disagree with your accusation of her intent of her statement: “A blasphemous statement that Patti made/recorded in her music was where she said Jesus died for sins, but no for hers (basically a clear statement that she open rejects Jesus as her personal Savior”

        She CLEARLY said this: ” I’m not against Jesus, but I was 20 and I wanted to make my own mistakes and I didn’t want anyone dying for me,…”

        That means that she doesn’t think anybody else should die when SHE IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE WHEN SHE COMMITS A SIN.
        I will full support that line of thinking because its TRUE. The devil didn’t make you do it. You did it ALL ON YOUR OWN. And even if the devil DID make you do it…HE should die for your sins, NOT Jesus. Too many Christians use God as a crutch thinking they shouldn’t have to work to slow down the frequency of their sins.
        God IS NOT a NEED for somebody to do good behavior, he is a SUPPORT system.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    Not quite like watching Ozzie…

  • Elizabeth Neely

    I sang and played in a rock band for several years and that does not make me unsaved or anti christian, I love Jesus more than anything.. but I do love music too, ever hear the song “God gave rock and roll to you” Its just an artform and like any artform it can be used for good or bad or neutral..Just keep the good dont listen to the bad and dont let it get to you…Its only Rock and Roll but I like it Like it Yes I Do…And apparently so does Pope Francis….its only Rock and Roll people ….

    • Demopublicrat

      KISS is gospel now?

  • Geeky Grandma

    Her own mouth still convicts her. I’ll do what I want, she says. Enough said.

  • BeWhoYouAre

    Awful lot of judging going on, the very thing Jesus says not to do.

    She’s going to sing some music. Big deal. Who cares what she sang about 40 years ago? Who knows what she’s got in her heart now? Sorry so many of you want to send her to hell so badly, but that’s God’s job…if indeed it’s God’s will, which I doubt.

  • Nora Shaw

    No surprises here coming from this Pope. He has nothing nothing! To do with Biblical Christianity or what this is all about He’s very much against it, true Christians are heretics in his book. If Jesus would come to the pope’s table, He would turn it over (and He will someday soon) for he has made His house a dent of thieves, robbers deceivers and pedophiles. Read your Bible ALONE beginning to end. You ain’t going to find a pope in gold robes ANYWHERE…Pagans worshippers do.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      You will too find a pope in there. and a vatican. Revelation 18.

  • Neiman

    To all bible believing Christians here, I have two things to repent for and ask your prayers in helping me.

    1. In my desire to defend God’s Word and oppose error and I regret it is partly because I enjoy such debates that I might learn thereby, I have a bad tendency to allow debates to go on too long until they become vain disputations and accomplish no good purpose. I need your prayers that I might simply ignore people after I have made 2-3 defenses of my faith, leaving it to God to cause my poor words to bear fruit or not as He desires.

    2. In opposing the Roman Catholic Church on many key points, while I endeavor always to speak the truth in love, I inevitably and unavoidably offend many people that are devoted to the RCC. I never enjoy causing offense, although the Truth tends to do that no matter how hard I try otherwise. Pray that I will not allow long debates about the RCC to create hurt feelings.

    I am passionately in love with Christ and I love the lost, wanting to oppose evil and lead men to repentance; but I need to speak only God’s Word and let it win souls or cause people to stumble and try less to argue without necessity.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    In my dumber days I really liked Patti Smith.” &%#list” was my favorite song. Who knows where PS has come now. Hopefully its to a place of salvation. Just don’t see how someone can turn a blind eye to the planks sticking out of the eyes of the RCC…

  • DD

    Some have applauded the invitation, stating that references to religion can be seen throughout her music.
    “The person who did this really understood how Catholic imagery and atmosphere is woven into Patti Smith’s work; and the life or death urgency her work represents—it’s about salvation and redemption,” wrote Anthony DeCurtis of Rolling Stone.

    Nothing like supporting religious imagery and atmosphere with filthy language and blasphemy. That’s sure to stir lost souls to seek true salvation and redemption through our Lord Jesus Christ. Perhaps the pope will invite a Norwegian black metal band to share their satanic imagery and atmosphere at the Vatican Christmas concert in 2015. After all “Interfaith” get-togethers are all the rage in today’s tolerant and relevant churches.

    Christians need to pray for this man who is leading Catholics down a very dangerous road.

  • Don

    Ya know brain dead people really piss me off…… God too I’m betting. Sorry Lord forgive me of all of my sins you know my true heart Lord I am sorry. To those to whom I have offended I apologize sincerely it was not my intent to do that. I am in the wrong so I hope you can forgive me.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

    Wow the Pope’s REALLY pushing the envelope isn’t he? Hey what’s next? a full on satanic ritual?! And when are people going to wake up to this guy?!

  • Peter Leh

    Hope no one holds me accountable to what i said 40 years ago… jeez.