Obama Administration Opposes Bill Banning Abortions After Five Months Gestation

baby and motherWASHINGTON — The Obama administration has expressed its opposition to a Congressional bill that would ban abortions after five months gestation, opining that it is an “assault on a woman’s right to choose.”

H.R. 36 is known as the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, and while some believe that the bill doesn’t go far enough as all abortion should be outlawed, the Obama administration says that the prohibition on abortions after 20 weeks is oppressive.

“The administration strongly opposes H.R. 36, which would unacceptably restrict women’s health and reproductive rights and is an assault on a woman’s right to choose,” the White House Office of Management and Budget wrote in a memo on Tuesday. “Women should be able to make their own choices about their bodies and their health care, and government should not inject itself into decisions best made between a woman and her doctor.”

The bill was introduced by Sen. Trent Franks (R-AZ) and has nearly 160 co-sponsors. It is set to go up for a vote in the House on Thursday—the same day marking 42 years since the ruling of Roe v. Wade.

“[T]here is substantial medical evidence that an unborn child is capable of experiencing pain at least by 20 weeks after fertilization, if not earlier,” the bill reads. “It is the purpose of the Congress to assert a compelling governmental interest in protecting the lives of unborn children from the stage at which substantial medical evidence indicates that they are capable of feeling pain.”

But the Obama administration disagrees and states that the legislation ignores the autonomy of women.

“Not only is the basis for H.R. 36 scientifically disputed, the bill disregards women’s health and rights, the role doctors play in their patients’ health care decisions, and the Constitution,” it wrote in its memo.

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In addition to expressing opposition to the bill in general, the Obama administration is taking issue with a requirement in the proposed legislation that would mandate women who have been raped and subsequently seek an abortion to report the crime to the police. The government claims that the requirement “demonstrates a complete disregard for the women who experience sexual assault and the barriers they may face in reporting.”

“The administration is continuing its efforts to reduce unintended pregnancies, expand access to contraception, support maternal and child health, and minimize the need for abortion,” the Office of Management and Budget added. “At the same time, the administration is committed to the protection of women’s health and reproductive freedom and to supporting women and families in the choices they make.”

“If the president were presented with this legislation, his senior advisers would recommend that he veto this bill,” it said.

The majority of children who are aborted after 20 weeks gestation lose their lives through a procedure known as dilation and evacuation (D&E). Dilation and evacuation involves first administering medication that will stop the baby’s heart from beating. The mother’s cervix is then dilated and the baby is removed piece by piece with forceps. According to reports, the abortionist assembles the baby’s body parts on a tray to ensure that nothing is left behind.

Most states across America ban abortions after 24 weeks, although some have sought to lower the legal limit.

Abortion is Murder from I'll Be Honest on Vimeo.


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  • Gary

    Of course Obama opposes limits to abortion. Allowing women to murder their children is a part of Obama’s religion. Obama probably regrets that his being male prevents him from having an abortion.

  • Fundisi

    We are a culture of death, babies are so much trash to be discarded when inconvenient.

    • Paulina Gaweł

      You are culture of death ? Pfff. Sorry you want know where leads the path of banning abortion ? Just come here to Poland and you will be in your heaven – babies drowned in toilets, cutted alive and jared in barrels, abandoned to death in trashes or in forests to froze … or they will live sad long life without any future in orphanages where they will be bullied by older orphans. Single mother which sued this country for not allowing her to do an abortion on last pregnancy while her health was in danger – she is now disabled with three kids, she can’t work anymore because she is that blind – her eyes because of third pregnant are damaged. Sorry if teenage girl or woman will not have an baby this is her decision – you don’t know if this is because she have no work, no money, no support, or fetus was very damaged or maybe father just ran away when he heared about pregnant .. you have no right to judge her decision if she want giving birth or not. Not to mention raping victims … I guess you wouldn’t be happy to have inside yourself fetus of your rapist – that leads to serious traumas.

      • Fundisi

        There is another story posted here on CNN today about a woman and her husband that refused to abort the child of her rapist. Try and read it!

        No matter the reasons, which may be heartbreaking and devastating, nothing justifies the murder of a helpless, innocent baby. I am sorry to hear of the conditions in Poland, but murder is murder and no one has a right to “choose” murder unless they are ready to pay the full penalty before the law.

  • James Grimes

    “an “assault on a woman’s right to choose.”” How about an assault on a human life?

  • Bob Burke

    Only 1.2% of abortions happen after 20 weeks, the vast majority of those are because of the discovery of major birth defects in the fetus which can’t be diagnosed until the 20 week window or sometimes after or major health issues in the mother like acute eclampsia or other life threatening issues.

    Taking such decisions out of the hands of the actual women involved and their doctors and into the hands of politicians is what’s cruel.

    • Gary

      If your mother had aborted you, you would be much better off. As it turned out, you have now committed MANY sins for which God will punish you.

      • Bob Burke

        I wouldn’t exist, life and our soul begins with the breath. And as for your deciding for God, I just shake my head when someone invites God to forgive their trespasses as they forgive others. It will be interesting to see just have far God’s Grace extends for you Gary, I sincerely hope it extends far enough.

        • Gary

          It does to me. But not to you.

          • Bob Burke

            And so you condemn yourself not me. So be it.

          • Gary

            I don’t condemn myself. And God does not condemn me. But God has definitely condemned you. And you can’t change it.

          • Bob Burke

            YOu don’t understand the Lord’s Prayer, do you? its a bargain, “forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those that trespass against me.”

            You have asked God to treat you just as harshly as you treat others. Again, you condemn yourself.

          • Gary

            You don’t understand salvation. You never will understand it, and you never will participate in it. You are damned. God won’t undamn you, and nobody can but him. And I like it.

          • Bob Burke

            Actually I understand salvation very well which why your words mean nothing to me, but your continued statements are are perplexing. Are you a Calvinist? The idea you think you know who the ‘Elect’ are it seems likely.

            But our discussions seem to just draw you deeper into sin so, for your benefit, I think its best we don’t converse.

          • Gary

            My hypocrite detector works very well. I knew from the first post of yours that I read that you are not saved.

          • Bob Burke

            And so you condemn yourself. No one who’s saved talks like you or has the dark heart that could even permit it.

          • Fundisi

            That is the spirit of anti-Christ within you, not the truth.

          • Bob Burke

            The accusation comes to your lips so easily I think you are the one following false gods.

          • Gary

            You obviously have not read the New Testament. Or the old. You should read what Jesus said to some unbelievers. And what John the Baptist said to some. And what Peter, Paul, John, and Jude said to and about some unbelievers. My comments are mild compared to theirs.

          • Bob Burke

            I am a believer, but some examples please. Point out where they told anyone they were going to Hell personally and with no chance of change.

            Put up or…

          • Gary

            You are not a believer. Not in the sense that that believers are described in the New Testament. I don’t have time to find all the Scriptures that illustrate what I said. But if you were familiar with the NT, you would already know about them. But, I can give you a couple of examples: Matthew 7:13-23; John 3:36;

          • James Grimes

            No Christian would ever defend abortion.

          • Fundisi

            No, only you stand with the anti-Christ and against God’s Word. If you were saved, you were converted, born again and would not constantly attack Christians here.

          • Bob Burke

            I made a statement of fact and I was the one attacked. There are few people walking in the footsteps of Christ here.

            Again the Hebrews knew that those who have yet to breath are not the same as the born:

            ‘As long as it did not come out into the world, it is not called a living thing and it is permissible to take its life in order to save its mother. Once the head has come forth, it may not be harmed because it is considered born.’

          • Fundisi

            Show me the book, chapter and verse or quit making up God’s Word to justify your baby murders.

          • Bob Burke

            I’ve asked you for that repeatedly and you have just cited someone’s rambling rationalization for their chosen mythology.

            Again where is a fetus death called murder in God’s Word?

            Hint: answer is ‘nowhere’

          • Fundisi

            I have given you the answer several times from God’s Word, but like the people during Jesus earthly ministry, you are deaf and blind to the Truth, because the Truth is not in you and you have no love of the Truth. What you seem to love is the cold-blooded baby holocaust we are suffering and you defend these murders, you hate these children and the women involved.

          • Bob Burke

            And that none of that supports your contention proves my point. And then more slander. Sorry the Hebrews know more about this than you obviously. Since you have no Sriputral basis for your opinion and it is devoid of Spirit I think we are done.

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Should a woman who delivers a child with disabilities have the right to kill her child once it is, say, 1 year old? Also, does the child in its mothers womb have the exact same DNA code as its mother, making it truly a part of its mother’s body? Or does the child have a separate DNA code meaning that it is its own distinct and individual person who is simply residing in its mothers body. Shouldn’t we have the right to kill other people who are living in inconvenient places? Isn’t it a human right to go in and kill a group of people because we don’t like where they are residing, based on the defenses behind the pro-abortion stance? Is the child a human being or is it some other type of organism? If it is a human being, then shouldn’t we treat all human beings the same way that we treat unborn babies and simply kill those who have something about them that we don’t like, say their ability level, color of their skin, location of residence, healthiness etc? It’s our rights as humans isn’t it? We should have the right to choose who gets to live and who has to die based on no other reason than something about that person that we don’t like right now. Isn’t that what you’re claiming?

      • Bob Burke

        The differences are obvious:
        1) The unborn fetus isn’t a child, life and soul begins with the breath as it did in the beginning. God said causing a woman to miscarry was a fineable offense, not murder.
        2) These aren’t just ‘disabilities’ but things like missing a brain, externally developed internal organs and the like. These are issues where the mother could die going to term or suffer permanent health problems.

        And of course there is no ‘pro abortion’ stance. Saying the option should be there is world’s away from advocating it. Abortion rates are at their lowest in decades, not because of oppressive laws but because people are choosing not to have them. A ‘feel good’ law like this that only hurts people making difficult decisions and only effects a tiny percentage of abortions is something the Pharisees would like – all self-righteous showmanship and just a cover for the whited bones and emptiness within.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Before I read the rest of your statement – don’t ever EVER compare a miscarriage to abortion EVER again. I just lost my baby to miscarriage and you have no idea how incredibly cruel and painful that statement was to me and every other woman who has gone through the devastation of losing and burying a baby that they never got to hold. You are a cruel, cruel person to make such a disgusting comparison. I will read the rest of your comment once my heart rate has come down and the tears have stopped. Or perhaps I won’t. Nothing you have to say now could be worth hearing after making such a horrible statement.

          • Bob Burke

            That you can’t see the similarity regarding God’s lesson about fetuses, the nature of the crime and subsequently souls is understandable but makes my statement no less true.

            I’m sorry you lost your fetus, my neighbor has recently gone through the same thing. May God heal your heart with time.

          • Oboehner

            “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

          • Bob Burke

            Which of course says nothing about those who never leave the womb breathing – again God knows everyone that will ever be born before it is conceived. The vast majority of miscarriages are silent, where the fertilized cells, don’t implant properly or don’t get enough nutrition. The soul comes with the breath, causing a miscarriage is a property crime paid for with a fine, not murder.

            No fetus that doesn’t breath has a soul.

          • Gary

            You mean when John the Baptist leaped for joy in his mother’s womb, he did not have a soul? You are insane.

          • Bob Burke

            When the mother’s said that you mean? Mother’s anthropormophise the movements of their children frequently, as the verse makes clear this is what they thought not what actually was.

          • Gary

            Another example of your beliefs which have no basis in reality.

          • Bob Burke

            Other than the actual greek texts of the story? Corrupting mythology is nothing unique to any religion. There are several good articles about this passage on the web, John didn’t jump for joy, the fetus reacted to its mother’s emotional state which is a common occurrence in pregnant women.

          • Gary

            I’ll believe Elisabeth.

          • Bob Burke

            And she said it was her joy. I agree.

          • Gary

            Luke 1:44

          • Bob Burke

            The baby leaping “for joy”. What this means.

            Probably forwarded more than most other parts as the cause for one arguing John’s leaping in the womb as distinct within himself and not initiated or forced by his mother, Elizabeth, is the expression in verse 44 “the baby in my womb leaped for joy”.

            One, immediately upon reading this translation, is impressed with the view that it was John’s joy from which he jumped. In other words, it was John, in the womb, who was experiencing joy and therefore distinct from any other source, jumped.

            The Greek

            First, the Greek does not indicate this or force this at all. What you have is a simple construction ἐν (in) ἀγαλλιάσει (exultation/joy). But because “in joy” would be an unusual way to phrase this in the Greek and because “en”, though primarily meaning “within” (a preposition of locality), also carries with it force or cause at times so it is sometimes translated, with or by.

            The issue here is not whether the Greek preposition permits something or does not because here it really is useless unless we can determine what the source of joy is if this is the force of John’s leaping. And here the context is quite clear, it is not John’s joy but Elizabeth’s joy from hearing Mary’s greeting.

            In other words, “by joy” or “with joy” (Elizabeth’s joy) the baby jumped. It basically requires one to maintain the integrity of the context in which Elizabeth is in focus both in hearing Mary’s greeting and responding to it and being filled, herself, with the Holy Spirit.

            The fact is that the Greek preposition, in its most basic construction “in joy” would mean “within joy”. But whose joy? Clearly Elizabeth’s joy.

          • Fundisi

            ” 15″For he [John the Baptist] will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.”

            He could not be anything less than fully human to be filled with the Holy Spirit in His mothers womb. The Holy Spirit in him caused HIM to leap with joy in the presence of Christ in the womb of Mary, but wait, you probably do not think Jesus was fully human when He was in Mary’s womb either.

          • Bob Burke

            Why do you think Mary is even carrying Jesus at this time?

            Still it’s obvious you are going to believe whatever you want so I won’t bother pointing to the accurate translation of the Greek. If you want pearls you can go root them out yourself.

          • Oboehner

            You give yourself the authority to end a life that God has created?

          • Bob Burke

            Not the issue – I’ve already said that termination of a pregnancy can be a sin, the issue is if it is murder, and it is not. We aren’t ‘murderable’ until we are people, and that happens with the breath – just like with Adam.

          • Oboehner

            Heartbeat and brain function is irrelevant, or the fact that many babies who were old enough to survive on their own, yet still in the womb are butchered.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Babies are breathing in the womb starting at 9 weeks.

          • Bob Burke

            Not air which is what’s required Biblically. How did the Talmud put it, it is not a living thing until the head is birthed?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I am not Jewish. I am a Christian. Why do you keep insisting that we adhere to ancient Judaic law?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You are deplorable. I just asked that you never use this cruel comparison. Yet you try to defend this disgusting argument. Then, you continue your cruelty by not even referring to my child as a child or a baby but just as a ‘fetus.’ The verse that you have latched on to so mightily is one that is discussing the action of people who are fighting and end up hitting a woman’s stomach during the fighting and therefore cause a miscarriage. It is not the same as directly, willfully and knowingly causing the death of a child in utero. This verse does not defend your stance, as you so boldly and cruelly claim it does.

          • Bob Burke

            if it was murder it would be murder – the verse clearly says it is a property crime as the centuries of Talmud discussions agree.

            The treating the unborn as if they were already born is part of pernicious Christian mythology like the Immaculate Conception, angels having wings and other things.

            Your unborn child’s fate was known by God before it was conceived, he did not cruelly give it a soul and let its life end before it even began, take comfort in that.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You are incorrect on the moment that a chid receives a soul. A child receives a soul in the womb. However, let’s take your ‘soul’ argument further. If the qualifier is that one must have a soul, then you must be perfectly fine with dogs and cats being dismembered and torn apart before finally dying. Because animals do not have souls, and that is your qualification for whether or not it is okay to kill a creature, then it must be perfectly acceptable to do to animals what is done to babies before they’re born. Therefore, according to your worldview, it is perfectly acceptable to tear apart the limbs of dogs and cats, who do not have souls, while they are still alive.

          • Bob Burke

            The amount of projection everyone has on this issue is frustrating,

            Abortions post 20 weeks are rare, and done either because the fetus is severely deformed, or the mother’s life is at risk. This of course doesn’t make it a good thing, and mothers who have to make this kind of decision do not do so capriciously or lightly.

            As far as your bizarre animal story, you miss the entire point – it was that it wasn’t murder not if it was ‘ok’ and not that it wasn’t something that should be avoided whenever possible. We of course do dismember animals all the time for our food and clothing and even for sport.

            And again, please show where it says when people get souls in Scripture for the Old Testament rabbis discussed it for centuries and their arguments centered around where the child was in the birth canal during the birthing process.

            When do you think it is? ‘in the womb’ is incredibly vague. Not the old Catholic mythology of it being at the moment of conception I hope.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            It is rather frustrating that people like to pull out old “a human is not valuable if it doesn’t have a soul” arguments to okay murder. I seem to remember other times in history when this “logic” was used to justify the mistreatment of humans. Many times in fact. It appears it’s easy to treat another human without any dignity or respect when one considers them soul-less.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also – you did not accurately portray my argument regarding animals. The animals are dismembered once they are already dead. Human babies are dismembered while they are still alive.

          • Bob Burke

            Again the Hebrews knew that fetuses weren’t the same as born

            ‘As long as it did not come out into the world, it is not called a living thing and it is permissible to take its life in order to save its mother. Once the head has come forth, it may not be harmed because it is considered born.’

          • CrossedtheTiber

            So as long as a group of people signs of on an atrocity and deem it “okay” then it is considered morally correct?

          • Bob Burke

            You realize you are assuming the answer you want and then discounting information that doesn’t support it, right?

            The Hebrews are God’s Chosen people, their rabbis discussed this for centuries, and were far closer to the times the words were written, far more aware of the literary subtleties the language of the day.

            Yeah, it just isn’t murder and this is about a tiny fraction of abortions almost never performed except for a medical reason.

            Again, the number of abortions is decreasing in its own, why insert politicians into medical decisions?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            A living human being whose heart is beating and brain is functioning and senses are operating becomes a dead human being at the hands of another person. That is murder.

          • Bob Burke

            Oh do this whole thing is you don’t know the definition of murder? Explains a lot.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Enlighten me then.

          • James Grimes

            He won’t. He will just ignore the issue. Everyone (at least the sane) knows that abortion is murder.

          • Bob Burke

            Actually sometimes they can anesthetize the fetus and will if it is safe.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            How do you know that anesthisia works? Anesthesia doesn’t even work all the time on those who are outside of the womb in examples such as those who are undergoing surgery. How are you certain it works on those babies that are being killed? Also – note the use of your word “sometimes.” So… sometimes it’s used and sometimes it’s not. Those are odds you believe are acceptable?

            I met an aborted woman once. She’d lost use of one of her arms as a result of the attempted murder that had been preformed on her. She’d been left in a tray to die. She was one of those “rare fetuses past 20 weeks” that you keep talking about. A nurse realized she was still alive and saved her life. She was adopted by a loving family. Granted, she has her struggles in life, but she is so grateful to get the opportunity to struggle right along with the rest of us rather than to have been dumped into a medical waste bin.

          • Bob Burke

            so your contention is that you get to decide for others because anyone might make a mistake?

            Sorry, abortions are between the patient and their doctors, not politicians. Convince people not to have abortions don’t try and force your will upon them.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            This doesn’t even make sense. I was simply challenging your defense of abortion by showing that it is still very possible that the child feels every bit of their dismemberment even when anesthesia is used. How does that equal “I get to decide for others?” My deciding on abortion one way or another does not change what it inherently ‘is.’ I could change my mind tomorrow and decide that abortion is just fine but that doesn’t change the fact that abortion is not fine, it is not a person’s ‘right’ and it should not be a choice. My opinion of abortion does not change the fact that it is ending the life of not only that one child, but generations of people that would have come from that one child. People have made decisions about other groups of people throughout history. People have made decisions that slavery was right and then decisions that it was wrong. The fact is that slavery is always wrong, whether people decide that it’s right or not. The fact is that abortion is always wrong, whether people decide that it’s right or not. Your justifications for abortion are the exact same justifications that people have been using throughout history to defend their abhorent behavior. It was simply an issue between the slave owner and their slave and everyone else should just stay out of their business. A slave was simply ‘property,’ which sounds a lot like your use of that verse in Exodus since you keep equating an unborn baby to property. A slave was simply a person ‘without a soul,’ another justification you use for the right to kill babies. It was simply a person’s ‘right’ to own slaves, just as you believe that it is a woman’s ‘right’ to kill her child.

            I want to be on the right side of history. I don’t want to be the one with my head in my hands wondering how I could have ‘okayed’ the murders of millions of people, based on someone’s perceived ‘right.’

          • Bob Burke

            I guess that the fetus can feel it isn’t a reason to not perform the procedure would be my point. You do your best but since ancient rabbis actually talked of dismemberment of the fetus when anesthesia wasn’t even a possibility its just not a salient issue. Yes, do it if you can but if you can’t, you can’t.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Ancient Rabbis taught that slavery was acceptable. Do you believe that it is okay to own slaves today? Just because ancient Rabbis taught something does not make it ‘good’ or morally acceptable.

          • Bob Burke

            Nice straw an but that wasn’t the issue – it was if a fetal death can be a murder, it isn’t.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You are wrong. It is murder. An innocent life is ended by the hands of another person. Whether or not it is legal (as that is part of the technical definition of murder) is irrelevant as there have been legalized atrocities throughout world history. Hitler made it legal to do all kinds of evil things to human beings. Those actions were crimes whether they were ‘legal’ at the time or not. Aborting a baby is a crime against humanity whether or not it is technically ‘legal.’ As Jeanine pointed out, babies start breathing at 9 weeks gestation. The only reason you can’t hear their screams while they are being dismembered is because they are in a bag of amniotic fluid. If that fluid wasn’t there you would hear them screaming. You may wish to try to dehumanize unborn babies in your own mind for convenience sake, but that doesn’t change the objectiveness of what abortion is and does.

          • Bob Burke

            You are wrong it isn’t murder by Scripture or secular law. It might be s sin, it might be unnecessary but as long as you dedicate yourself to a lie there can be no progressive discussion.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Again – the law does not dictate morality. As I’ve pointed out over and over, many things have been ‘lawful’ that were intrinsically evil throughout the world and throughout history. Abortion is one of these things.

          • James Grimes

            “sometimes they can anesthetize the fetus”
            How often has this been done during the 56 million murders that have taken place since 1973?

          • Bob Burke

            Not murders biblically or secularly so your question is nonsensical.

          • James Grimes

            Don’t be such a buffoon. Your presence on a Christian forum spewing the nonsense that you spew is insignificant. You are arrogant.

          • James Grimes

            Does anyone have an answer? The person I had responded to has avoided the question.

          • James Grimes

            You are 100% correct. Thank you.

          • James Grimes

            I am sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, there are those whose existence only brings heartache to others. For one who advocates the murder of babies, that is truly depraved.

    • Fundisi

      Yes, you are right, we should allow the mother and doctors to decide when babies should be murdered. We should make murder, all murder legal, how dare politicians pass laws against murder.

      • Bob Burke

        Hmmm we know from the Bible God considered the loss of a fetus a property crime, not murder. Why are you contradicting God?

        • Fundisi

          It is always sad when unbelievers, enemies of God like you, misuse God’s Word to justify your sins and thereby try and lead souls away from God.

          “Thou shalt not kill (do murder)!

          “4Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, 5″Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you;” Jeremiah 1


          The Bible never specifically addresses the issue of abortion. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-23 prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

          Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html#ixzz3PTbd6FvZ

          • Bob Burke

            Interesting twisting – Exodus specifically says if there is no serious injury to the mother who miscarried it was a fine. And of course God knows us before we are formed in the womb, He knows the future. He knows what fetuses are going to term, which will be lost in silent and obvious miscarriages, which will actually be born and have the souls He has prepared.

            Causing a miscarriage, by abues or deliberately might be a sins, but it most definitely not illegal killing, i.e. murder, which is what the Commandments is about.

            Again, the soul comes with the breath.

          • Fundisi

            God will not excuse murder! period! You are an accomplice to every child aborted in this country and just as guilty. To make matters worse you pervert God’s Word to justify your support of child murder.

          • Bob Burke

            Exactly, God doesn’t consider the loss of a fetus murder, we know He said it was a fineable offense.

          • Fundisi

            There is a great difference between dong something that by accident causes a woman to spontaneously abort her child and your friends deliberately killing a child in the womb.

          • Bob Burke

            Again, there is no scriptural basis to consider abortion murder, or to allow politicians to interfere with medical decisions. There are so many people calling themselves Christian who are more into Christian mythology rather than the Word of God.

          • Fundisi

            “There are so many people calling themselves Christian who are more into Christian mythology rather than the Word of God.”

            Yes, that describes you perfectly.

            You condone murder, you are acting contrary to God’s Word, you are a murderer.

          • Bob Burke

            Again, where is killing a fetus identified as murder in Scripture? If you are just going to go off ranting again I will assume it is just something you made up.

          • Fundisi

            I have shown you over and over again why “abortion” is murder; What about accidentally killing a fetus?

            “22”If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23″But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life,…

            Notice first – this is not abortion, it was not a deliberate act to kill the child in the womb. If you are so blind and so bloodthirsty as to not know the difference between this and a deliberate, conscious act to kill that child, you are just a cold-blooded child murderer. Next, in this case IF there is further injury and that child dies – it is life for life, it is a capital offense.

          • Bob Burke

            no that is about the mother – the ancient Hebrews knew this pretending it meant something else is pointless.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The Bible isn’t needed to know that abortion is wrong. There are many pro-life atheists who have no use for the Bible, who understand that abortion is wrong. Your argument claiming that if “abortion = murder” isn’t found in the Bible then it is “okay” is a clear example of sola scriptura gone very very very wrong.

          • Bob Burke

            Again not the issue – is it murder Biblically? Is the question and that is a clear ‘no’.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Why does it have to be in the Bible to be true? It is ending human life. That is a statement of fact. Abortion = dead baby. There is no way around that fact, unless that baby is a fighter and somehow, miraculously survives its abortion. But the original intention of the abortion was to end the life of a human being.

          • Bob Burke

            When did I say it was ‘ok’? You just project as you like. I said it wasn’t murder and specifically said it is a difficult decision for parent and doctors, many decisions in life are between two bad choices and having politicians deciding for others is the worst choice of all.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I apologize for making assumptions about your reasoning/conclusions. However, the portrayal you have given and the defenses you have provided have been leading many of us to conclude that you are okay with abortion, especially in your discussion of the dismemberment of the babies. I don’t deny that many women who make this choice are doing so under difficult circumstances. What gets my blood pressure up in a boil is the type of dehumanization given to babies that you have so clearly portrayed, that would lead her to conclude that this could possibly be the “right choice for her.” If you were to fully understand the psyche of a pregnant woman, you would see that the pro-choice stance is actually very anti-woman, even though it is masked as being ‘pro-woman.’ A woman who is pregnant understands that a change has occurred in her body, emotions, mentality, often before she ever realizes that she is pregnant. Pregnancy, in its nature, is meant to turn a woman’s world upside down because pregnancy turns her into a mother, from the moment of conception. Denying that change does not erase that change. It is simply denial. Therefore, a woman who has been lied to, with lies like the ones you have used over and over in this forum, will be lead her to believe that this is just some soul-less sack of cells, a parasite that needs to be removed. But deep down, most every woman understands the truth. She may not realize it today. It might take decades. It might not hit her until Christmas 30 years from now when she realizes that her tree would have been filled with gifts for the grand-kids of the baby she aborted.

            Not only that, but abortion poses many serious and unnecessary immediate and long-term physical risks to a woman. So even if she never suffers emotional trauma (which is rare) there is a strong chance she will suffer physical trauma either immediately following the abortion or decades later. Or, she may never suffer physical trauma, but the emotional trauma that she suffers could lead her to cause herself physical harm through suicide or other self-harming choices. People like to think simply about that one-time ‘choice’ but rarely examine the life-long and generational ramifications of that choice.

            Thankfully, God is a God of immense and perfect love any grace and He will forgive these women and their partners who make this choice. When Jesus was on the cross He was dying for all of us, and for those who would choose to abort their babies. He was thinking about them when He said “Father forgive them.” However, that forgiveness does not mean that we should continue to say that abortion is an acceptable part of our society, that it is simply someone’s ‘choice.’

          • Fundisi

            Loss of a fetus and murdering then are wholly different things.

          • Bob Burke

            Do you know what the word ‘murder’ means? its an illegal homicide. Where in scripture is a fetal death identified as murder?

          • Fundisi

            Exodus 21:22, see below

          • Bob Burke

            Never mentions the fetus in that regard, only the mother.

          • Fundisi

            “22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”

            I wish you were a Christian knew God’s Word.

            The context is the premature delivery, it does not speak to the woman only. Then it says if there is serious injury, which would include injury to the child prematurely delivered, then if it is a loss of life of either – it is “life for life.” That is the context and the Truth.

          • Bob Burke

            I wish you were a Christian with a bit more knowledge about scripture. . That is referring to the mother not the fetus, known for literally thousands of years. If you are hanging your claim on that misunderstanding then there is nothing more to say.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Give up on him. He has not the Spirit. That is why he cannot read basic English nor understand Scripture. Plus, his science, philosophy, and logic are substandard to say the least. You have warned him fairly of his future. Now, just pray for him, that he will leave the devil of death and turn to the God of Life. If he does, then he will know how horribly sinful abortion is in God’s eyes. He has probably encouraged women to have abortions or performed them himself, and his guilty conscience will eventually overcome his suppression of the truth – hopefully. Now, we must extend grace to the unrepentant, and no longer cast our pearls before swine.

            Great Biblical exegesis, BTW, Fundisi – God bless!

          • Fundisi

            Thank you for your encouragement and your kind words.

          • James Grimes

            Good advice. Thanks for sharing.

          • Bob Burke

            So you are just going to belief what you want in spite of Scripture? I can’t say that surprises me at all.

          • Fundisi

            It is you that does not know God’s Word, you are of the spirit nof anti-Christ.

            The Bible never specifically addresses the issue of abortion. However, there are numerous teachings in Scripture that make it abundantly clear what God’s view of abortion is. Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He forms us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25prescribes the same penalty—death—for someone who causes the death of ababy in the womb as for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb to be as human as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6).

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/abortion-Bible.html#ixzz3PUmWZRLp

          • Bob Burke

            So it is all made up, there is no actual scripture that says that Exodus even says it is a fine able property offense, not murder.

            Again, you can make up what you wish but I’m a Christian and rebuke Christian mythology and sorry that you have attributed to the Devil that which is God’s – that is the unforgivable sin.

          • Fundisi

            No it is NOT made up at all, it is based on God’s Word that if there is further injury, death of that child it is a capital offense, life for life.

            You are NO Christian, you are here arguing for child murder and are of the spirit of anti-Christ.

          • Bob Burke

            No they are talking about the woman not the fetus. Again there is this thing called the internet, find out what the Old Testament means from the people that lived it

          • Fundisi

            The Septuagint version interprets this, not of the woman that miscarries and dies, but of the child that becomes an abortive;

            You sure want to murder babies, I’ll bet their flowing blood excites you.

          • Bob Burke

            Slander just reveals you for what you are – what next? Try to commit all 6 of the things God hates in a single message?

          • Fundisi

            Why is it slander? You are here defending the cold-blooded murder of children.

          • Bob Burke

            That you don’t understand why it’s slander punctuates my point.

          • Fundisi

            These exchanges are getting us nowhere. So please take your out of control ego and your hatred of Christ and His word, cease stalking me and lie to someone else.

          • Bob Burke

            Stalking you? You replied to me first, correct? Take your own advise and your mythology based Christianity and just don’t talk to me would be the best route.

          • Bob Burke

            No the injury is not about the fetus but the woman. The Hebrews knew this it’s far too late to try and do a retcon anyone would fall for.

          • Fundisi

            Would Jesus Who warned against anyone that would hurt a child approve of abortion? Can you place Jesus in that abortuary Chamber? If you can, you cannot know Christ at all.

            I have told you the truth from God’s Word, you will answer to God. Remember I am defending human life and you are defending the cold blooded killing of a baby in the womb.

          • James Grimes

            Yes, he does support the murder of babies. His lifestyle must be totally depraved.

          • afchief

            You are extremely ignorant. A miscarriage is an accident. An abortion is and act of man. An act of man’s will. It is murder, PERIOD!

            If you claim to know Christ as your savior, then you better get into the Word and ask God to give you understanding. Because with your posts, your understanding is severely lacking.

          • Bob Burke

            Claiming I don’t understand just shows the grip mythology has on some Christians. Fetuses aren’t people in the eyes of God until they are born. They don’t go to heaven they don’t have an afterlife, they are potential people, period.

            That isn’t to say they are without value, that isn’t to say we can’t discuss how something this precious should be considered. But wild talk of an abortion being murder is as misplaced as a miscarriage being considered a homicide.

            No politicians don’t have a right to tell a family they must take a severely deformed and unviable fetus to delivery, they don’t have a right to risk a woman’s life against her will buy giving her no choice but participate in a delivery that could kill her. Most states already prohibit abortions for non-medical reasons in the the final trimester, work on making these truly be for medical reasons.

            But politicians interfering with a heartrending decision like this because of the mistaken notion that fetus are people? Wrong in the eyes of God, Americans and those with any empathy for the actually born.

          • afchief

            Fact #1: Every abortion kills an innocent human being.

            Every new life begins at conception. This is an irrefutable fact of biology. It is true for animals and true for humans. When considered alongside the law of biogenesis – that every species reproduces after its own kind – we can draw only one conclusion in regard to abortion: every single abortion ends the life of an innocent human being.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/1

            Fact #2: Every human being is a person.

            Personhood is properly defined by membership in the human species, not by stage of development within that species. A living being’s designation to a species is determined not by the stage of development but by the sum total of its biological characteristics.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/2

            Fact #3: Beginning at conception, every pregnancy involves two or more bodies.

            No matter how you spin it, women don’t have four arms and four legs when they’re pregnant. Those extra appendages belong to the tiny human being(s) living inside of them. At no point in pregnancy is the developing embryo or fetus simply a part of the mother’s body.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/3

            Fact #4: It is just, reasonable, and necessary for society to outlaw certain choices.

            Any civilized society restricts the individual’s freedom to choose whenever that choice would harm an innocent person. Therefore, it is impossible to justify abortion by simply arguing that women should be “free to choose.”

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/4

            Fact #5: The right to not be killed supersedes the right to not be pregnant.

            The comparison between a baby’s rights and a mother’s rights is unequal. What is at stake in abortion is the mother’s lifestyle, as opposed to the baby’s life. Therefore, it is reasonable for society to expect an adult to live temporarily with an inconvenience if the only alternative is killing a child.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/5

            Fact #6: Poverty, rape, disability, or “unwantedness” do not morally justify abortion.

            There are all sorts of circumstances that people point to as justification for their support of abortion. Since none of these circumstances are sufficient to justify the killing of human beings after birth, they’re not sufficient to justify the killing of human beings before birth

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/6

            Fact #7: The differences between embryos and adults are differences of degree not of kind.

            Like toddler and adolescent, the terms “embryo” and “fetus” do not refer to nonhumans but to humans at particular stages of development. Human beings inside the womb are smaller, less developed, and more dependent than human beings outside the womb. These are differences of degree, not differences of kind. We can all point to other people who are bigger, stronger, smarter, or less dependent than we are, but that doesn’t make our life any less valuable or any less deserving of protection.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/7

            Fact #8: Less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother.

            It is an extremely rare case when abortion is required to save the mother’s life. Of course, when two lives are threatened and only one can be saved, doctors must always save that life. However, abortion for the mother’s life and abortion for the mother’s health are usually not the same issue. Since every abortion kills an innocent human being, it is morally abhorrent to use the rare cases when abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother as justification for the millions of on demand “convenience” abortions.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/8

            Fact #9: To be only “personally pro-life” is to not be pro-life at all.

            If abortion doesn’t kill children, why would someone be opposed to it? If it does kill children, why would someone defend another’s right to do it? Being personally against abortion but favoring another’s right to abortion is self-contradictory and morally baffling.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/9

            Fact #10: If there is uncertainty about when human life begins, the benefit of the doubt should go to preserving life.

            It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception. However, if one personally has even a shred of uncertainty about when life begins, then they are still morally obligated to err on the side of life and NOT have an abortion. Why? Because to make a mistake about the exact time when life begins is to kill an innocent human being.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/10

            Fact #11: Abortion is more dangerous than childbirth.

            Not only does every abortion kill an innocent human being in the womb; but abortion is also more dangerous to the mother than if she were to give birth to the child. The evidence overwhelmingly proves that the morbidity and mortality rates of legal abortion are several times higher than that for carrying a pregnancy to term.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/11

            Fact #12: Prior to abortion’s legalization, 90% of abortions were done by doctors, not by “coat hangers in back alleys.”

            Some justify abortion on the claim that if it is outlawed, women will abort anyway and may die in the process. There are 3 problems with this hypothesis. First, it doesn’t address the ethics of abortion. Second, laws against abortion would deter most women from having one. Third, there is no evidence that illegal abortions are more dangerous than legal abortions. Of course, even if the “coat hanger” argument was true (it’s not), then it’s still morally ridiculous to legalize procedures that kill innocent babies just to make the killing procedures less dangerous to the mother.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/12

            Fact #13: The 8 week+ unborn baby feels real physical pain during an abortion.

            Yes, every abortion kills an innocent human being. Even more alarming is the fact that beginning at the 8th week of development, an unborn baby that is aborted feels pain during the abortion. The baby feels both psychological and real physical, organic pain. Let that sink in. Of course, whether or not abortion is a painful experience to the unborn child being aborted, the child is left no less dead as a result. In talking about the question of fetal pain, we must remember that it ultimately has no bearing on the morality of abortion

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/13

            Fact #14: Abortion is condemnable for the same reasons that slavery and genocide are.

            Networks of killing centers across the globe are eliminating “unwanted, unborn” children at a staggering rate. Were the context not abortion, the world would be outraged. Call it what you want, when an innocent group of human beings is targeted and exterminated by the millions, that is an injustice on par with any of history’s most egregious atrocities. At the end of the day, if the unborn are people (and they are), then abortion is not only comparable to past crimes against humanity but is also, by sheer volume, the greatest holocaust of all.

            http://www.abortionfacts.com/facts/14

          • Bob Burke

            Please, if it were any of those silliness were true than we’d just take the fetus out and let someone else raise it.

            But we can’t, and shoots those rationalizations down.

            Until the fetus can survive on its own separated from its host its not a living being. And until that day the host shouldnt be told by politicians the must do so against their choice and choosing to not be a host isn’t murder.

            Again the idea that a fetus is a person is Christian mythology no more Scriptural than angels having wings or the immaculate conception of Mary myth.

          • afchief

            Sorry, but it IS murder!!! God is the giver of life, period!

            Before I formed you in the womb I knew you Jeremiah 1:5

            For you formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother’s womb. I am fearfully and wonderfully made Psalm 139:13

          • Bob Burke

            Talking to the born. Again, life begins with the breath as per God’s own Word and known for thousands of years befor mythology infected Scriptural clarity. Yes a fetus becomes a person at that moment but it is one before that.

            Yes fetuses are precious but they aren’t one of the born — yet.

          • James Grimes

            You are correct. As I had said in another comment here, the depraved will take Scripture out of context to support their delusions. They don’t know how to use the Bible as a weapon.

  • Oboehner

    Better push all of that stuff through now when you’re guaranteed a veto, that way you can claim you tried when you really have no intention of changing the status quo.

  • robertzaccour

    Of course he opposed the bill. Should we expect anything more? Sad sad sad.

  • robertzaccour

    We just celebrated MLK day in remembrance for his courage as the head of the civil right’s movement in toe 60s. There is no longer institutionalized racism in this country. We should continue the fight against the slaughter of children that are not yet born and as long as I have breath in me I will speak out against it. Even if we can’t change the laws we can still bring awareness and change the people. I highly recommend the movie “180” to watch and to share with everyone.

  • MGR

    Planned Parenthood Aborted 327,653 Babies in 2013, Received Over $528 Million in Federal Tax Dollars.

  • Jeanine Schaefer

    It keeps being mentioned that an unborn child has no soul until it has breath, unborn children DO breathe!!! They could NOT live if they didn’t. The process is a little different and they don’t have air running over their vocal cords yet (or you would hear them scream and cry during abortions), but they could NOT survive without oxygen & nutrition.they just breathe amniotic fluid after about 9 weeks!

    • Fundisi

      Great! That did not occur to me, of course you are right.

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Exactly!! Thank you Jeanine!!

    • James Grimes

      Thank you. I just told the guy who is defending abortion that his presence here is insignificant. How can anyone defend abortion?

  • James Grimes

    How can the wanton killing of a baby not be murder?

    • Fundisi

      Because they do NOT know God’s Word. I have shown them that even in the case of an accidental injury to a pregnant woman that results in death, it is life for life against the perpetrator.

      Spoob, Burke and others that deny it is murder are denying God’s Word, they are demonstrating the spirit of anti-Christ within themselves. They even say they are Christian, but it is words only as there is no evidence of any true conversion to Christ.

      • James Grimes

        The depraved pick and choose the parts of the Bible they want to use to further their disgusting lifestyle. They fail to keep these verses in context. They are ill prepared to use the Bible as a weapon.

  • Truthhurts24

    I dont know how any man or women can live with themselves being an abortionist I mean to get paid killing babies just sounds like a bizarre occupation

  • Jose Paniagua

    Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. (Psalm 139:16) sometimes when you have no words, its better to quote scriptures.

  • James Grimes

    There should be no expectation that a non-believer will ever promote biblical truth.

  • JuneV26

    STOP ABORTION NOW! The act of killing is murder! It is not a mother’s right to choose. It is not her body-it is the body of the infant she is carrying! What about the infant’s rights-don’t they account for anything? Our bodies belong to God-He made us, we belong to Him! Let’s open our eyes, and see the horrific procedures in the video, which millions of infants go through, just because their mothers are selfish, thinking only of themselves! Raise your voices and speak out against this horrific holocaust! It’s gone on for far too long now! Let’s end it, once and for all! In Jesus’ name, have mercy on us for allowing abortion to go on for as long as it has!