Mormons Call for Passage of Homosexual Anti-Discrimination Laws–As Long Religion Also Protected

544px-Salt_Lake_Temple,_Utah_-_Sept_2004-2SALT LAKE CITY, Utah — Officials with the Latter Day Saints called for the passage of anti-discrimination laws to protect homosexuals and transgenders on Tuesday, stating that they support such measures as along as religious freedom is also protected.

The press conference featured statements from Jeffrey R. Holland, Dallin H. Oaks and D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, as well as Neill Marriott, the second counselor in the Young Women general presidency.

“The [homosexual rights] movement arose after centuries of ridicule, persecution, and even violence against homosexuals,” Marriott said. “Ultimately, most of society recognized that such treatment was simply wrong, and that such basic human rights, such as securing a job, or a place to live, should not depend on a person’s sexual orientation.”

She said that while the Latter Day Saints had not changed its position on homosexual behavior being sinful, the establishment also believes that God’s “heart reaches out to all his children equally, and He expects us to treat one another with love and fairness.”

“We call on local, state and the federal government to serve all of their people by passing legislation that protects vital religious freedoms for individuals, families, churches and other faith groups while also protecting the rights of our LGBT citizens in such areas as housing, employment and public accommodation in hotels, restaurants and transportation—protections which are not available in many parts of the country,” Oaks declared.

But the Mormon leaders said that if homosexuals are granted these protections, people of faith ought not to be deprived of the same for disagreeing with the lifestyle.

“[L]aws ought to be framed to achieve a balance in protecting the freedoms of all people, while respecting those with differing values,” Oaks stated.

  • Connect with Christian News

He provided recent examples of what he believes is discrimination and bigotry against religion.

“It is one of today’s great ironies that some people who have fought so hard for LGBT rights now try to deny the rights of others to disagree with their public policy proposals,” Oaks remarked.

“When religious people are publicly intimidated, retaliated against, forced from employment or made to suffer personal loss because they have raised their voice in the public square, donated to a cause or participated in an election, our democracy is the loser,” he stated. “Such tactics are every bit as wrong as denying access to employment, housing or public services because of race or gender.”

As previously reported, in 2013, the leadership of the Latter Day Saints also expressed approval of a policy change within the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) that would permit openly homosexual boys to serve in the organization.

“While the Church has not launched any campaign either to effect or prevent a policy change we have followed the discussion and are satisfied that BSA has made a thoughtful, good-faith effort to address issues that, as they have said, remain ‘among the most complex and challenging issues facing the BSA and society today,’” it remarked, noting that the establishment has had a relationship with the Boy Scouts of America for 100 years.

Some Mormons have also marched in the annual homosexual pride parade in Salt Lake City, such as the group Mormons Building Bridges.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • Fundisi

    Protect deviant sexual conduct and stand by God’s Word condemning such conduct at the same time? That is like the Jews wanting to be taken to the Promised land, while they engaged in idolatry and sexual revelry.

    • Spoob

      Why do you care SO MUCH what goes on in the bedrooms of other people? Why must you be a busybody? How does it affect your life in ANY way?

      • Fundisi

        First, homosexuality and gay marriage are not bedroom issues only, what they do in their bedrooms is between them and God. I am not trying in any legal to prohibit their private deviant sexual practices.

        It affects my life because their immoral lifestyle is corrupting the moral-spiritual values of our nation and that impacts the lives of my children, grandchildren, etc., it is IMO a moral/spiritual cancer that metastasizes in advancing a godless America and it corrupts/fouls everything it touches and produces spiritual death.

        I do understand the powerful urges and misdirected sense of affection involved and I feel bad that they are, again IMO, in bondage to demonic spirits which, if not repented, will cost them eternal life with God and I can only work to expose God’s hatred of their sin in the hopes a few will repent, find salvation in Christ and healing before it is too late..

        • Terry Roll

          Th reason that you can practice whatever brand of Christianity (or any other religion) is due to the fact that this is a free country. We all have to make our own choices. The Mormons are smart in that they want to preserve their freedom and that of others. It is only a matter of time before the tables get turned on you when you try to rule others peoples’ lives.

          • Fundisi

            Neither I nor any true Christian have any desire to rule anyone’s life, trying to influence the moral/spiritual fabric of our country is never by dictate. The reason we have freedom of religion is because of our mostly Christian Founding Fathers, who escaped religious persecution and insisted upon such freedoms here, not because of atheists.

          • Terry Roll

            Most of the Founding Fathers were deists, not Christians; however, I would be wrong if I discounted the role of Christians in the shaping of our Constitution. Pastors helped mobilze popular support that couldn’t have been done otherwise. What exactly is the point of you mentioning the Founding Fathers again? I don’t see how it related to my comment at all.

          • Harry Oh!

            Homosexual relationships do nothing to serve the state interest of propagating society, so there is no reason for the state to grant them the costly benefits of marriage, unless they serve some other state interest.

      • The Last Trump

        Please see the many articles concerning the targeting of Christian businesses and churches by LGBT militants. Businesses and churches that did not need to be targeted. Jobs have been lost, fines levied and businesses shut down. LGBT militancy has also outraged several schools and scarred countless children with their blatant pornography and grossly inappropriate behaviour during sexual education classes under the guise of “safesex” seminars.

        How does it affect us in any way? You have some nerve. Never again will we fall for that old line. “We just want to be left alone!” Remember that? Riiiiiight. Christians offered tolerance to the most intolerant group on the planet and now the Christian witch hunts run 24/7. Can’t even view articles on a Christian website without you intolerant, hateful bigots harassing us at every turn for the unforgiveable “crime” of supporting traditional marriage and family.

        Back to the Gay Times with you, “Spoob”. Your poisonous drivel and intolerant agenda will see no success here.

        • Spoob

          Oh, “TARGETING OF CHRISTIAN BUSINESS AND CHURCHES BY LGBT MILITANTS!” Is THAT what’s going on! Holy crap, Trumpy, are you THAT out of touch? Yes, you bash the nasty mean homosexuals over the head with your Bible and exclude them from society and when they try to stand up for themselves they are “TARGETING” you! What planet do you live on? What I am seeing is florists and bakers refusing to offer their services to homosexuals.

          And just WHAT are you considering to be “pornography”? Teaching people that homosexuals are human beings and there is zero justification for beating up on them with your Bible?

          For the last time, I’m not homosexual, but I’ve worked as a social worker to help them get over all the hate people like you have heaped on them for simply trying to live their lives in peace. Believe me Trumpy, I know poison when I see it, and I know who’s doling it out, and it’s not them.

    • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

      Or else it means that LDS understands that not everyone is a member of their Church.

      • Fundisi

        There was a time when Mormons in Utah would have never tolerated such things in their state, when they stood up against the country for what they believed. Even if everyone in Utah is not a member of their church, they used to stand for something.

        • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

          True. After all, they didn’t even allow black people in their church until the late Seventies.

          • Fundisi

            There is NO comparison between immutable characteristics of skin color and sexual conduct – NONE.

          • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

            You talked about the good old days, when LDS stood up for what they believed. I was agreeing with you.

          • jubilee

            they ‘allowed’ them but they were NOT supposed to ENTER THE PRIESTHOOD because of the PRE-EXISTENCE in heaven, and the ones who lost the ‘war’ became dark skinned
            (I STILL DON’T KNOW why Mia Love became one)

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

    How about no more stinkin laws and we all go back to the constitution eh?

    • BarkingDawg

      Why don’t you call for a repeal of all the amendments, as well?

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

        That just made no sense. Whatever dude.

        • James Grimes

          He likes to be the focus of Proverbs 26 : 4.

          • Jeff Varney

            Dawg is not the only troll who is the focus of that scripture, James. They along with other people pick and choose scriptures just to suit their purposes and agendas. We make sure we don’t do that. It’s best to read the entire passage and chapter along with the scripture(s) to understand/realize what that means and how it applies/they apply to our lives.

        • BarkingDawg

          Well you want to pick and choose. So why not have a fresh start.

  • Gary

    I always discriminate against glbtqfs regardless of what the law says. And I will continue to do so.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      There’s the Christian spirit we’ve come to know and love. Don’t get butt hurt when they do the same thing to you.

      • Gary

        I always treat others the way I want them to treat me.

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          Well, we will probably never cross paths for it to be an issue. I’m assuming you are someone who is older and you probably live in some podunk town where you can stay insulated from the gays. Let’s keep it that way.

          • Gary

            Sounds good to me.

    • Spoob

      That’s why you’re such a lousy Chrustian, Gary. You think that’s what JESUS would do?

      • Carmen Hill Wathen

        Jesus would tell them to go and sin No More! That’s what Jesus would do.

        • Spoob

          Love isn’t a sin. You’d think a person calling themselves a Christian would know that.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            Didn’t Jesus date a hooker?

          • KenS

            NO, NO NO, Jesus did not date anyone, anytime, or anyplace!

          • Terry Roll

            I guy who wanders around with 12 dudes and has one he loves more than the others….probably gay.

          • The Last Trump

            Typical gay understanding of the concept of love. Sad.

          • Spoob

            What would you know about it? All you know about gay people is that you want to kill them. SO Christian.

          • Gary

            Homosexuality has nothing to do with love. Nothing at all. It is all about wicked, perverted lust.

          • Spoob

            Spoken like a true fundie bigot.

          • Gary

            Thanks.

          • BarkingDawg

            Or a deeply closeted gay man.

          • Spoob

            There is no doubt in my mind.

          • todd

            Yes, that is a great point. I bet Gary is a closeted gay man. Most of my experience with such unjust hatred, it usually stems from jealousy.

            Gary, it’s ok if you want to come out of the closet, even after all the hate full things you say, we’ll except you 😉

          • Terry Roll

            Ted Haggard, is that you?

          • pax2u

            now that is really funny

          • The Last Trump

            Sexuality is NOT love. Every genuine Christian understands that.

          • Spoob

            Sexuality is a component of loving someone. You would never have jumped into bed with your boyfriend if that wasn’t the case, and you know that. Every genuine human being understands that.

          • Gary

            You are a fool.

          • Spoob

            Go away.

          • The Last Trump

            !!!!!!! People jump into bed with each other because they love each other!? I don’t even know what to say to such stupidity.

          • Spoob

            On my planet they do Trumpy, what happens on yours? Do they get into bed with the people they hate?

            It’s not stupidity, it’s the real world, I don’t expect you to understand.

      • Gary

        Jesus is going to send them all to Hell. You too.

        • Spoob

          Take it up with God, screwball.

          • Gary

            Don’t need to. It has already been decided.

          • Spoob

            You aren’t God.

          • Gary

            Neither of us are. But I do believe the Bible, so I know what God is going to do with unrepentant sinners.

          • Spoob

            You don’t know if that’s what I am.

          • Gary

            Oh yes I do. You keep proving what you are.

        • Michael Eade

          “It say’s here, you have to be saved in order to go to heaven, but the way i see it you only have to be yourself to go to hell” – Marilyn Manson.

        • BarkingDawg

          Your Jesus is such an angry Jesus.

          Why can’t you have a happy, loving Jesus?

          • Gary

            Jesus is only angry with the wicked.

          • BarkingDawg

            How do you know? Are you two on snapchat?

          • Gary

            I know because I read the Bible.

          • Terry Roll

            Snapchat would be more credible than the Bible.

          • Better AndBetter

            But Gary is angry with the world.

          • Fundisi

            Jesus is happy, He is the God of Love and He promises joy that is so great we cannot speak of it; and in us, He loves all His creation. Yet, like a parent, He is also a God of Justice and anyone that sins, absent sincere repentance, will suffer under His Just Hand.

            I cannot speak for others, but for most Christians their condemnation of homosexuality is: (a) They must speak against it based on God’s Word, wherein He expresses hatred for it, because it is not only a perversion of His Creative Design, but the ultimate, most blasphemous form of idolatry – self love. (b) Because by calling it what it is, by opposing it some might come to repentance and eternal life and that is the highest expression of the Love of God.

          • The Last Trump

            Sorry. His holiness demands judgment for sin. You didn’t actually think He would just sit on His hands and impotently complain about our sinful rebellion now, did you? How naïve.

            Happy, loving Jesus is waiting for those who obey His commands (His words, not mine). Angry Jesus? Waits for you.

          • Spoob

            LOL! “Angry Jesus Waits For You.” Sounds like something the Westboro Baptist Church likes to sing.

        • Terry Roll

          Ok. Fair enough. In the mean time leave them alone.

          • Spoob

            I don’t think he can, he is programmed to hate.

      • The Last Trump

        Absolutely! Have you actually ever read the Bible! Seriously. Check out the sections on sins TO AVOID AT ALL COSTS and the penalty for engaging in those sins. Pay close attention to the several passages strictly forbidding samesex relationships. Anyone who willingly engages in activities the Bible clearly defines as sinful rejects the love of God freely given to us at the cross and invites the very judgment Jesus willingly gave His life to save us from. Not very bright now, is it?

        • Spoob

          The question is, have YOU ever read it, Trumpy? How about that part where Jesus punches the gay people in the face! Just love that part! Oh wait a sec, no, it’s not there. In fact, Jesus never even MENTIONED gay people. Not once. Not one single time. Try to find the scripture where he does. You won’t. You are a liar, and a bigot, and a hypocrite, especially if you eat shellfish, which the Bible says not to do. And if you haven’t cut off one of your hands or plucked an eye out when it caused you to sin.

    • Better AndBetter

      And you change…

      Nothing.

  • Jim Garrou

    Mormonism is corrupt and defiled itself!

  • TheBBP

    So, a cult wants to take the wide and easy path? Again, not shocking news.

  • Bruce Morrow

    Remember Mormonisn is a false religion and thus they would have no real issues with the SIN of homosexuality! As the article states some Mormons even marched in the so-called “Gay Pride” parade in Salt Lake City.

    • Spoob

      But homosexuality ISN’T a sin. Judging certainly is though.

      • Douglas

        I’m curious about your thoughts on this. From a biblical perspective it seems clear that homosexual acts are a sin. I’m not trying to get into a debate, but as someone who believes the Bible, why do you feel that it isn’t?

        • Spoob

          Because science tells us it’s not. They have studied it and come to the conclusion that sexuality is not chosen by anyone and homosexuality is not an illness but a normal variation of human sexuality.

          • Douglas

            Secular science sometimes butts heads with the biblical world view. This would be one of those situations. Earlier, I believe you said to another person here that you believe in the Bible. Would it be fair to say that you don’t really believe the Bible in light of what you just said? You don’t have to answer me, but just think about it.

            Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. If you want to follow Christ, please put your trust in Him. You may not agree with everything right now, but if you seek truth I believe you will find it. I would hate to see anyone mislead because they believed man over God.

          • Spoob

            How about this: I believe in the Bible unless portions of it are proven to be wrong, then obviously it is not possible to believe those portions. It happens. We know now that Noah’s Flood couldn’t possibly have happened, And so we look at the story instead as metaphor. Bats are not birds, the Bible got that one wrong.

          • Douglas

            Please don’t be so hasty to make your conclusions.

            Proverbs 3:5-7

          • Spoob

            Well, I wouldn’t call it haste. When science is proven to be 100%, absolutely, without a doubt correct, what choice is there but to assume the Bible is EITHER speaking metaphorically, there is something lost in translation, or the Bible is simply incorrect?

          • Oboehner

            “When science is proven to be 100%” Wake me when that happens evolution boy.

          • Spoob

            It’s a little difficult to wake the walking dead, O’Boner. Keep those blinders on. Science and evolution will continue with or without you.

          • Gary

            I am very happy that God has damned you. I wish you were already gone.

          • Spoob

            Would it be okay with you if I submitted great big handfuls of your loving and well-thought out posts to the Fundies Say the Darnedest Things website?

          • Gary

            If you would read the Bible, you would find that it confirms what I have said to you. You are damned, and there is nothing you can do to change that. And God won’t do anything about it either.

          • Spoob

            I don’t take advice from crazy fundamentalist zealots and nut jobs.

          • KenS

            That is the most hurtful thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself and fall down on your knees and ask for forgiveness from your Lord and savior. He is very disappointed in your right now

          • Oboehner

            Right after blood-letting, ROFL.

          • The Last Trump

            Science is consistently wrong. And topics end up going through several drafts of “the truth” until the actual truth is ever nailed down. If ever. In some cases we will never know and will have to just guess.

          • Spoob

            Yeah, isn’t that nice? And when it IS wrong, it finds out why it was wrong and fixed and corrects itself. Just like in real life. Too bad Christian bigots don’t operate the same way.

          • The Last Trump

            Don’t beat yourself up. You can always make the decision to change and ask Jesus for direction. It’s never too late, Spoobmeister. Well….until it’s too late, of course. 🙁

          • Spoob

            I am always changing, always redefining how I think, always challenging my own ideas. I think that’s the healthy thing to do. You are remaining steadfast to bigotries you only IMAGINE are what are being commanded in the Bible. Between the two of us, I choose me. Must more reasonable, plus I have no desire to shoot gay people in the head with the gun I got from Wal-Mart, what about you hillbilly boy?

          • The Last Trump

            And there it is! The GAY mantra. “I choose ME!” Nevermind what the scriptures say. THAT’s the difference between you and me, charlatan. I choose GOD. As do the other “bigots” you hate so much on this site.

          • Spoob

            I choose me because I’m not you, it’s got nothing to do with benig gay because I’m NOT gay. I choose me because I am reasonable and you are not. I choose me because I don’t want to hurt or oppress anyone and you do. God wasn’t one of the options, you threw that in to be teacher’s pet yet again.

          • The Last Trump

            I get it, I get it! You choose YOU! (..that’s what I said….sheesh!) 🙂

          • Spoob

            Thaaaaaat’s riiiiiiiiight. Option 1, you. option 2, me. I choose option number TWO!

          • The Last Trump

            🙂 Too funny, Spoobs!

          • Spoob

            Thanks, I’m here all week. Try the veal, it’s delicious.

          • KenS

            Noah’s flood has not been proven to not have happened, thre is more scientific facts to support the flood than there is not too, and if you are referring to the notion that the heat would have baked the people and animals in the ark, then you are disregarding the passage in the bible that says that God protected Noah and the animals in the ark.

          • Spoob

            It is physically, scientifically impossible for Noah’s Flood to have actually occurred. That’s a simple, verifiable scientific fact.

          • KenS

            You are forgetting that God is supernatural, therefore He can make anything happen, God is more powerful than science, he created the science that you are saying is impossible; therefore, he can overpower said creation.

          • Terry Roll

            Man’s made up science vs Man’s made up religion. Decisions, decisions.

          • KenS

            There are many prophecies in the bible that have been proven to be fulfilled, whereas science continually proves a theory and then disproves the same theory in a few short years, so my decision would be to trust the Bible that has proven prophecy fulfillment over the science that keeps proving itself wrong.

          • Terry Roll

            Yeah! Blindly follow a book written by a bunch of bedouins thousands of years ago and reject science because I said so!

          • Douglas

            I’m sorry, if you are looking to engage me you will have to be open to real science and discussion. I’m afraid you have become wise in your own eyes.

      • Gary

        The Bible says homosexuality is a sin.

  • DiscerningFire

    Funny, can’t find a Bible verse to back that up…. I guess when your religion is not based upon scripture, you can make up the rules for personal benefit as you go.. In this case, Satan making a deal with the devil……

    • Oboehner

      It’s the magic underwear, just ask Romney.

  • William Tyndale

    More evidence if we needed any that Mormonism is not a Bible believing Christian church, but rather a pagan, polytheistic sect which has stolen Christian terminology, rituals, and symbols to try and fool true Christians that they are just another Protestant church.

    • Spoob

      Really? I believe in the Bible, but I am not a gay bashing Christian bigot.

      • Gary

        If you believed the Bible, you would oppose homosexuals.

        • Spoob

          Not a chance.

          • Oboehner

            So God was just kidding when he said, “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, Spoobs “interprets” that to mean two dudes simply lying next to each other doing absolutely nothing whatsoever. AKA, “camping” or “sleeping in a four man tent”. I know! ABOMINATION! Put these folks to death already, right?

            Funny though…..Spoobs was never actually able to explain to me why THAT was such an abomination deserving death….. Yet, homosexuality is given the green light! …..yikes! And then he tried to tell me he hasn’t “interpreted” anything!? Wow. These folks are so greatly confused about so great a number of things, never mind just camping!

          • Spoob

            If it didn’t mean that Trumpy, why does it say that? Or are you simply looking for confirmation bias from a fellow bigot?

            Would you care to explain why eating lobster is kosher now when it was expressly forbidden? Or your electric pink blazer with the cotton/poly blend? Try to do it without being hypocritical…

          • The Last Trump

            Who said it was kosher now? Just because we go ahead and do something that God has told us not to do doesn’t mean it’s suddenly kosher. Take homosexuality, for instance. 🙂

          • Spoob

            I see, so to be absolutely safe, you don’t wear mixed blends in your clothing, you eat no seafood, and you’ve chopped off a hand and plucked out an eye (unless of course you’ve never sinned, which I expect is the next lie you’re going to try to float).

            Must be hard to type with one hand.

          • Oboehner

            There’s a great many things those marians can’t explain.

          • Spoob

            Or maybe the CATHOLICS, not Marians, explain them perfectly well and you ignore them or misrepresent what they said, as you’re so practiced at doing.

          • Oboehner

            Catholics, marians, it’s all the same and you haven’t explained anything perfectly well. You just twist scripture as you are so practiced at doing.

          • Spoob

            Catholics aren’t Marians, that’s bigot BS, and I’m explaining perfectly. No twisting. Be specific of keep your mouth shut.

          • pax2u

            he read it in his jack chick comic book, and his preeeeecher told him so, because he saw it on the internet so it must be true

          • Oboehner

            “Catholics aren’t Marians, that’s bigot BS…” Sure, think about that when you make that pilgrimage to the mary shrine and plant your lips on the graven mary image.

          • Spoob

            Wow, you certainly are an expert on what I do for someone who doesn’t know me and has never met me. Did you divine that information when you were waving snakes around, or did it come to you in a vision that you had when you were flopping around on the ground speaking in tongues?

          • Oboehner

            It came to me in an apparition, I saw the former virgin in an oil spot on the road and she told me.

          • Spoob

            Yeah? And what choice filthy name did you call her, since you have so many in your back pocket ready to attack people with?

          • Oboehner

            I took a page from your playbook and accused her of waving snakes around, a vision that she had when she was flopping around on the ground speaking in tongues.

          • Spoob

            Too bad you didn’t accuse her of idolatry or witchcraft or whatever else you toss around which Catholics don’t do. Might have given her a good laugh.

          • Oboehner

            Talking to an oil spot that looks like a deceased woman IS idolatry.

          • Spoob

            Whatever turns you on, son. Long as you aren’t worshiping it.

          • Oboehner

            It’s all idolatry.

          • Spoob

            Your fantasy, your rules.

          • Oboehner

            No it’s God’s rules, but I guess he ain’t the pope…

          • Spoob

            Well, of course you know better.

          • Oboehner

            Just relating biblical truth, marian.

          • Spoob

            Knock yourself out, Bertha.

          • Oboehner

            You enjoy hangin’ with your turd fetish friends.

          • Spoob

            Spoken like a true loving Christian.

          • Oboehner

            Back atcha.

          • Spoob

            And forth. You really know a lot about what gay men do together, don’t you?

          • Oboehner

            They don’t hide it.

          • LiquidSunshine

            That is terrible, you should be ashamed. As Christians we are called to love homosexuals even if we feel they are in error, and to use such filthy language is not befitting a Christian.

          • Oboehner

            The “language” pales in comparison to their activities. You should be ashamed.

          • Spoob

            Which you are doubtless an expert on.

          • Oboehner

            It’s shoved in our faces daily.

          • Spoob

            Oh, do you watch gay pornography every day?

          • Oboehner

            Where would that be, EWTN?

          • LiquidSunshine

            And calling them disgusting names does what good? Shaming them? Humiliating them? How are you bringing them to Christ? Why should I be ashamed?

          • Oboehner

            You give sodomites a pass, yet rail me for calling it like it is, sad. They humiliate themselves through their actions. Romans 1

          • MC

            “Catholics aren’t Marians”

            Really?

            “Throughout the centuries the devotion to and the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics has both led to, and been influenced by a number of Roman Catholic Marian Movements and Societies. These societies, form part of the fabric of Roman Catholic Mariology. Popular membership in Marian organizations grew significantly in the 20th century, as apparitions such as Fátima gave rise to societies with millions of members, and today many Marian societies exist around the world.[1] This article reviews the major Marian movements and organizations.”

            “The Sodality of Our Lady was formed in 1563 in Rome by members of the Society of Jesus and has remained the official Marian society of the Holy See for centuries. In 1584, Pope Gregory XIII issued a Papal Bull commending this Sodality, granting it indulgences and establishing it as the mother Sodality. The Bull Gloriosae Dominae of Pope Benedict XIV increased the privileges of the sodality and the 1948 Apostolic Constitution Bis Saeculari of Pope Pius XII summarized the historical and contemporary relevance of the sodality.

            Over several centuries the organization listed many saints, several popes and various royal figures as members. Until the Second Vatican Council in 1965, the Sodality of Our Lady or the Children of Mary as it was known, was a well-known part of the life of Catholic Communities worldwide. After the Second Vatican Council, many sodalities were transformed by the Jesuits, who redirected their policies towards social concern. Since then, the number of active sodalities has dwindled, as other Marian organizations have grown.”

            “Marian Movement of Priests

            The Marian Movement of Priests was founded by Father Stefano Gobbi in 1972, on the 55th anniversary of Our Lady of Fátima. According to the organization, its members now include over 400 Catholic cardinals and bishops, more than 100,000 Catholic priests, and several million lay Catholics worldwide.”

            “Roman Marian churches are religious buildings dedicated to the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary. These churches were built throughout the history of the Catholic Church, and today they can be found on every continent except Antarctica. The history of Marian church architecture tells the unfolding story of the development of Roman Catholic Mariology.

            The construction and dedication of Marian churches is often indicative of the Mariological trends within a period, such as a papal reign. For instance, the 1955 rededication by Pope Pius XII of the church of Saint James the Great in Montreal, with the new title Mary, Queen of the World, Cathedral, was a reflection of his being called “the most Marian pope”. A year earlier, Pope Pius XIIhad proclaimed that title for the Virgin Mary in his 1954 encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam.[1] This encyclical on the Queen of Heaven is an example of how the interplay between churches and Marian art reinforces the effect of Marian devotions.”

            “The Congregation of Marian Fathers of the Immaculate Conception of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary (Latin: Congregatio Clericorum Marianorum ab Immaculata Conceptionis Beatissimae Virginis Mariae; abbreviation: M.I.C.) is a Roman Catholic male clerical religious congregation founded, 1673, in Poland. It is also known as Marians of the Immaculate Conception.

            The Congregation of about 500 priests and brothers has convents in 19 countries on 6 continents. Marians pledge support to the pope and follow the official teachings of the Catholic Church and aim to spread devotion to Blessed Virgin Mary as the Immaculate Conception, pray for the souls in purgatory and undertake a variety of apostolic work.

            Marians were the first Catholic men’s religious institute dedicated to the honor of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. The community traces its roots to Blessed Stanislaus of Jesus and Mary Papczyński who was beatified in Basilica of Our Lady of Licheń, Licheń Stary, Poland, in 2007. As an Institute of consecrated life their motto is Pro Christo et Ecclesia. Marians are also the official promoters of the authentic Divine Mercy message since 1941.”

            Are you sure you’re not a scientologist because you don’t seem to know the history of the RCC?

          • Spoob

            It depends if you mean “Marian” in the sense of those ordained at the time of Queen Mary or if you mean it in the derogatory sense of being followers of Mary rather than Jesus. Knowing the way some people on this site are, I know which camp they fall into.

          • MC

            You have no idea who Marians are, do you?

          • Spoob

            As I said, there are two meanings. Did you not read my last post?

          • MC

            So, you have no idea who the Roman Catholic Marians are?

          • Spoob

            Marians were the first Catholic men’s religious institute dedicated to the honor of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. The community traces its roots to Blessed Stanislaus of Jesus and Mary Papczyński who was beatified in Basilica of Our Lady of Licheń, Licheń Stary, Poland, in 2007. As an Institute of consecrated life their motto is Pro Christo et Ecclesia. Marians are also the official promoters of the authentic Divine Mercy message since 1941.

          • MC

            Yes, I already posted that. It refutes your claim that, “Catholics aren’t Marians”, when we know Marians belong to the RCC.

            “”Throughout the centuries the devotion to and the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary by Roman Catholics has both led to, and been influenced by a number of Roman Catholic Marian Movements and Societies. These societies, form part of the fabric of Roman Catholic Mariology.”

            You might want to know the history of your own church.

          • Spoob

            Only a small percentage of Catholics do this. You do know that, right?

          • MC

            Yes, and it still refutes your claim that “Catholics aren’t Marians” because Marians are part of the RCC. And Catholics pray to Mary.

          • Spoob

            No. Marians might be Catholics but not all Catholics are Marians. And it is more correct to say that Catholics pray THROUGH Mary – they ask Mary to pray on their behalf.

          • MC

            And yet it refutes your claims that, “Catholics aren’t Marians”. Just because not every Catholic is one is irrelevant, Marians are part of the RCC, and Marians are Catholic. How can you pray, “through” a person who is dead and can’t hear you? Why can’t you pray just to God since only God can hear prayers?

          • Spoob

            It refutes nothing. Catholics aren’t Marians. Marians are Catholics. Just like insects aren’t bees. Bees are insects. One is a subdivision of the other.

            Of course what’s going on here is that Mary ISN’T dead, she’s alive in heaven with the rest of the saints, what hope is there for the rest of us otherwise? And because she has a favored position, Catholics ask Mary to pray for them. Don’t agree? Don’t be Catholic. It’s as simple as that.

          • pax2u

            I am always fascinated by those who have a preconceived opinion that the must struggle to support,

            They will tell Catholics what the “really” believe based on a hate comic book like Jack Chick or an anecdote based on a story that they hear about a friend, of a friend who knew a guy down the block who said he saw it on the internet so it must be true,

          • Spoob

            Well I’m not really interested in getting into an argument with someone based on an opinion. You don’t do this or that practice? Good for you. Some people do, Why argue? If you disagree, don’t do it. Real simple. But everyone has to judge the actions of others.

          • MC

            Yes, and Marians are part of the RCC. Yes, she’s alive in heaven, just like every other Christian who walked the earth and died. Mary is no different than any other Christian in this world, ALL Christians are saints. Why pray to someone, who’s not God, who’s in heaven who can’t hear you, who’s not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent and ask them to pray to God FOR you?

          • Spoob

            Firstly, Catholics DO pray directly to God, but they ALSO may choose to pray to (or rather through) Mary for the very reason I gave you – because of her favoured status and position with God, so they ask her to pray for them. And this is called intercessory prayer and is no different than asking a friend or family member to pray for you. But now we are starting to judge others, aren’t we? As long as the prayer ultimately goes to God, which it does, why should anything else matter? Are they breaking any laws or rules?

          • MC

            No, there is a BIG difference. Asking another person who’s alive, on earth, who knows your problems because they see it, or you told, them, or you asked them for prayer, compared to praying to a person who’s dead, who can’t hear you. The only way Mary or any saint can hear ANY and ALL prayers at the same time by millions of people is for them to be omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Then in that case, because that is what you’re saying, they would be God, and that would put an end to the Holy Trinity. Yes, we are to judge ALL things as we are commanded to do, and yes ALL prayer must be directed to God and God only, no dead people. Unless of course you can show me Scripture that says to pray to God AND dead people? Because I don’t see anywhere in the Lord’s prayer that is directed to Mary or any dead people.

          • Spoob

            Well now it becomes matter of opinion, right? You disagree, and that’s fine, and they disagree with you.

          • pax2u

            are all protestants snake handlers and members of the KKK?

            because some protestants are snake handlers and are members of the KKK?

          • MC

            Where and when did the KKK argument come from? Why are you bringing up a hate group that has nothing to do with Christianity? Are you comparing Marians to the KKK? Shame on you. That’s like bringing up the fact that Hitler was Catholic.

          • pax2u

            I am using a false premise

            do some Catholics worship Mary incorrectly?, maybe,
            do all Catholics worship Mary incorrectly? NO

            do some Protestants handle snakes and belong to the KKK,?maybe

            do all Protestants handle snakes and belong to the KKK? NO

          • pax2u

            Hitler was not in communion with the Catholic Church as an adult

          • pax2u

            Catholics honor Mary as Jesus would keep the commandment to honor your mother and father, Catholics do not worship Mary

            anti Catholic bigots who hate Christians will state that Catholics worship Mary as God

            all Christians should pray for those who are willing to lie about the faith of Christians,

          • MC

            Why pray to Mary if she can’t hear you?

          • pax2u

            we ask Mary to pray for us, I ask you to pray for me, but you are not God, sorry

          • MC

            How can you ask her anything if she’s dead?

          • pax2u

            the souls of the holy are alive in heaven

          • MC

            How can you ask a dead person to pray for you if they can’t hear you because, well, they’re dead?

          • pax2u

            I am a Christian and as a Christian I believe in Heaven and as a Christian I believe that the souls of the holy who have died are alive in Heaven

          • MC

            All Christians who die are with the Lord, they are all holy, but they can’t hear prayers, only God is omniscient. Are you saying dead Christians are now omniscient like God? Where in Scripture does it say that?

          • pax2u

            I am saying that as a Christian I believe in Heaven
            I do not put limitations on God, and I do not put limitations on Heaven

            where in scriptures is God’s ability limited?

            with God all things are possible

          • MC

            Well, with that logic I guess you can make God do and say whatever you want.

          • pax2u

            no but as a Christian I believe that God and do and say whatever God wants

            God’s power has no limits

          • MC

            Yes, God’s power has no limits. So, why would he need to make other people hear prayers if he’s already omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent?

          • pax2u

            why are we told to pray for one another

            James 5:16

            Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much

            should I not ask you to pray for me, as I will pray for you?

          • MC

            Praying FOR someone is not the same as praying TO someone and asking that person who’s not alive to pray for them.

          • pax2u

            Catholics pray TO God, the God of the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit

            do you believe in the Christian Trinity?

            Catholics ask other to Pray for them to our Christian God Jesus Christ,

            Do you ever Pray for someone, or would that make you a God?

          • MC

            You seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Praying FOR and TO someone two are different things. How else can you ask Mary anything unless you PRAY to her, there are Catholic prayers to Mary.

            “Hail Holy Queen

            This prayer is a constant favorite among the prayers to Virgin Mary. It has long been a part of the the Liturgy of the Hours, the Church’s official daily prayer.

            Hail, holy Queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Pray for us, O holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Amen.”

            “Loving Mother of the Redeemer

            This prayer is also included in the Liturgy of the Hours. It is attributed to Hermann the Lame, a German monk who died in 1054.

            Loving Mother of the Redeemer,
            Gate of heaven, star of the sea,
            Assist your people of have fallen yet strive to rise again.
            To the wonderment of nature you bore your Creator,
            yet remained a virgin after as before.
            You who received Gabriel’s joyful greeting,
            have pity on us poor sinners.”

            “Miraculous Medal Prayer

            One of the newer prayers to Virgin Mary. The first part appears on the Miraculous Medal, created by St. Catherine Laboure in response to her apparition of the Virgin Mary in 1830. This spurred a widespread devotion to prayers to Virgin Mary.

            St. Maximilian Kolbe added the remaining part of this prayer. He was devoted to the Blessed Mother and her Miraculous Medal, and recommended frequent prayers to Virgin Mary for our own salvation and that of others.

            St. Maximilian Kolbe was imprisoned by the Nazis in the Auschwitz death camp. He was killed on August 14, 1941, after offering his life so that another prisoner might be spared.

            O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee, and for those who do not have recourse to thee, especially the enemies of the Church and those recommended to thee. Amen.”

            “The Catechism of the Catholic Church also discusses prayers to Virgin Mary.”

            Prayers TO the virgin Mary. I rest my case.

          • pax2u

            I ask you to pray FOR me, but you are not God, sorry

          • MC

            Yes, I will pray FOR you but not TO you or ask any non-omniscient persons to pray FOR me. But at least you see the truth, Mary or any saint can’t pray FOR you because they’re not God and they can’t hear you, they don’t know your needs because they can’t hear you because they’re not omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. We here on earth know the problems of a Brother or a Sister because we are alive with them, here on earth. When one of us dies, we cease to hear the ones left on earth. Simple.

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you also and you still are not God

            if you limit the power of God, and Heaven that is your concern

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your insults, and will pray FOR you

          • MC

            There is or was no insult, just pointing out an observation. And thanks, I never turn down someone praying for me! We ALL need prayer.

          • pax2u

            thank you , as I appreciate your intelligence and would not make a remake against it.

            I ask you to pray for me as I will pray for you, take care

          • MC

            I will pray for you Brother. I enjoyed our civil conversation. In Christ, MC

          • pax2u

            blessings to you and yours

          • pax2u

            is heaven empty?

          • MC

            I already answered that, try reading for comprehension this time.

          • pax2u

            I will pray FOR you

          • Spoob

            Why do you not allow people to disagree with you and worship God the way they choose to?

          • Spoob

            I don’t “interpret” that verse to mean two dudes simply lying next to each other. I simply read it, because that is what it says. The SECOND you try to twist it around into anything other than that, you have used your own – guess what? – INTERPRETATION.

            It works both ways, hillbilly bigot boy. I know you wish you could just kill every single one of them and be done with it, but your brand of “Christian” needs to be protected from itself. I personally think you should be wearing a special helmet to keep from hurting yourself.

          • Spoob

            Maybe God didn’t say that, O’Boner. Maybe us silly humans wrote that. Or misunderstood it. Or mistranslated it. He also said not to mix certain textiles and not to eat shellfish. Been to Red Lobster lately? If so, how do you justify one and not the other? You pseudo-Christian hypocrites are a laff riot.

          • Gary

            Your false claims of being a Christian have not fooled anyone. We know you are an infidel. You might as well drop the act.

          • Spoob

            You do not know me and you are not God. You lose.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh oh! Spoobs is informing people that they have lost again! Well, that’s that. I guess you really lost Gary. 😉

          • Terry Roll

            Do you Taliban bro? Infidel….really.

          • KenS

            All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16

          • Oboehner

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16
            “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18

            You pseudo-Christian pagan hypocrites are a laugh riot.

          • Spoob

            So what do those verses of scripture have to do with the fact that some of you zealots are going to invent your own meanings and to completely disregard things like translation and the finesse of certain words not translating to English quite so easily? Not quite as cut and dried as you want to make it out to be.

          • Oboehner

            Nice cop-out, even your corrupted catholic version states the same thing.

          • Spoob

            Way to completely ignore my question.

          • Oboehner

            I did, you were merely attempting to cast dispersions upon the translation which clearly (cut and dried) states homosexuality is a sin, I answered by saying even your corrupted translation clearly states it is. So are you trying to say you’re a rump ranger and are trying to justify that?

          • Spoob

            Nice try, you conveniently ignored the question about how you justify eating shellfish and wearing mixed textiles, both of which the Bible says not to do. You slipped in a pointless attack on the Catholics and made a disgusting homophobic slur but nothing more than that. This is the stuff you are made of, O’Boner. You’d be right at home in a Phelps family rally.

          • Oboehner

            “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1Corinthians 1:18

            “made a disgusting homophobic slur” That’s rich, turd burglar, especially since homosexual activity is disgusting, and the term “homophobic” is itself a slur. Next you’ll be championing pedophiles.

          • Spoob

            Anti-gay slurs just roll off your tongue, don’t they? Your fundie pastor must be SO proud of you. You’re probably well-practiced from all your Westboro Baptist Church protests.

            “Every homosexual activity is disgusting”? Maybe learn a little bit about the subject you are attacking before defecating all over a web forum. I’d sure like it if you’d just drop the pretense and tell me why you think gay people don’t fall in love just like straight people. And why what they do in the bedroom is any more or less disgusting than what we do as straight people.

            And no, homosexuality has nothing to do with the abuse of children.

            That’s right O’Boner. Straight. As in, I am married to a woman. So keep your vile epithets to yourself.

          • MC

            You’re confusing the ceremonial law with God’s unchanging Moral Law, most atheists do because they know nothing of Scripture. The ceremonial law was for the Jews, not the Gentiles, you can read it in the Bible. It was to keep them separated from the other nations. Jesus put an end to the ceremonial law with his work at Calvary, unless of course you want to go back to sacrificing animals for the redemption of sins? Oh, and, by the way, before you use the failed, “eating shellfish” argument again,

            14After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16[“If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”]

            17When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.18And He said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean).

            14But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.” 15Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.” 16This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

            Jesus declared ALL foods clean. Remember that, it’s all basic Christianity 101 stuff. That way you won’t embarrass yourself again in the future.

          • Spoob

            You are in no position to be lecturing me about scripture. If you knew the first thing about scripture you’d know that you are told not to judge, lest ye be judged.

          • Spoob

            Also, how do you know which were ceremonial laws and “God’s unchanging moral laws”? How do you know which were forgiven laws and were not? Answer: You DON’T. You elect to keep the men lying with men thing in your bad books because you find it disgusting and yucky. You pick and choose, that’s all.

          • MC

            Read the Bible, it’s all in there. Jesus declared all foods clean, the apostles declared all foods clean. God declares homosexual acts as an abomination under his Moral Law, the apostles declare homosexual acts an abomination under God’s Moral Law. Jesus declares marriage is between a man and a woman in Genesis, Jesus reiterates that marriage is between a man and a woman in the New Testament. What does, “bad books” mean? Try again.

          • Spoob

            Really? And what did Jesus have to say about homosexuality? Where did Jesus forgive the mixing of textiles? Where is the word “homosexual” in there, and how can it have been used since it wasn’t coined as a word until 1869? Where does Jesus declare that two men can’t be married, or two women? “Bad books” are the ones you keep things in that you don’t like but can’t find specific scriptures giving you permission to hate them.

            And a question for you: What if the Bible told you that you must execute gay people, even though we know in this day and age that homosexuality isn’t an illness and requires no cure? Would you do it?

          • MC

            Jesus already stated the what the requirement of marriage is, TWICE. Once in Genesis and then again in the New Testament, then the apostles also wrote about homosexual acts. And yes, the ENGLISH word, “homosexual” wasn’t there because THE BIBLE WASN’T WRITTEN IN ENGLISH! You don’t think homosexual acts were being committed during that time, you don’t think they knew what that was? LOL! You really can’t be this obtuse, are you? Homosexual acts were condemned by Jewish law, just like adultery.

            Leviticus 18:22 (NASB)

            ~’You shall not lie with a male as one lies

            with a female; it is an abomination.

            The word used by the ancient Hebrews for the word “LIE” in THIS verse is: shakab שָׁכַב

            to lie down

            to lie, lie down, lie on

            to lodge

            ➼***to lie (of sexual relations)***⬅︎

            to lie down (in death)

            to rest, relax (fig)

            ➽***(Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)***⬅︎

            ➽***(Pual) to be lain with (sexually)***⬅︎

            (Hiphil) to make to lie down

            (Hophal) to be laid

            a primitive root; to lie down (for rest, ➽***sexual connection***⬅︎, decease or any other purpose) :- × at all, cast down, ([over-]) lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still, with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay.

            The word used by the ancient Hebrews in THIS verse is tôʿēbâ.

            tow`eba htō·ā·vä’abomination, abominable thing, abominable.

            abominable (5),

            abominable act (1),

            abomination (39),

            abominations (60),

            detestable (2),

            detestable act (1),

            detestable thing (3),

            detestable things (3),

            loathsome (2),

            object of loathing (1).

            1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NASB)

            [1Co 9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

            [10] nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

            The Greek word for “effeminate” is:

            μαλακός

            malakos

            soft, soft to the touch, metaph. in a bad sense, effeminate, of a catamite

            ➽***of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man

            ***of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness

            of a male prostitute⬅︎

            The Greek word that Paul used for “homosexual” is:

            “Arsenokoités”

            ἀρσενοκοίτης

            From: arsén and koité

            arsén: male

            Transliteration: arsén

            Short Definition: male

            Word Origin

            a prim. word

            Definition

            male

            NASB Translation

            male (6), men (3).

            koité: a bed

            Original Word: κοίτη, ης, ἡ

            Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

            Transliteration: koité

            Phonetic Spelling: (koy’-tay)

            Short Definition: a bed, marriage bed

            Definition: (a) a bed, (b) a marriage bed; pour: ➽repeated ***(immoral) sexual intercourse.***⬅︎

            Word Origin

            from keimai

            Definition

            a bed

            NASB Translation

            bed (2), conceived* (1), sexual promiscuity (1).

            Thayer’s Greek Lexicon

            STRONGS NT 2845: κοίτη

            κοίτη, κοίτης, ἡ (ΚΑΩ, ΚΑΙΩ, κεῖμαι akin to κοιμάω); from Homer, Odyssey 19, 341 down; the Sept. chiefly for מִשְׁכָּב, also for שְׁכָבָה etc.;

            a. a place for lying down, resting, sleeping in; a bed, couch:εἰς τήν κοίτην (see εἰμί, V. 2 a.) εἰσιν, Luke 11:7.

            b. specifically, the marriage-bed, as in the Tragg.: τήν κοίτηνμιαίνειν, of adultery (Josephus, Antiquities 2, 4, 5; Plutarch, de fluv. 8, 3), Hebrews 13:4.

            c. cohabitation, whether lawful or unlawful (Leviticus 15:4f, 21-25, etc.; Wis. 3:13, 16; Euripides, Med. 152; Alc. 249): plural, ***sexual intercourse*** (see περιπατέω, b. α.), Romans 13:13 (A. V. chambering); by metonymy, of the cause for the effect we have the peculiar expression κοίτην ἔχειν ἐκ τίνος, to have conceived by a man, Romans 9:10; κοίτη σπέρματος,Leviticus 15:16; Leviticus 22:4; Leviticus 18:20, 23 (here κοίτηεἰς σπερματισμόν); on these phrases cf. Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans 2, p. 291f.

            bed, chambering, cohabitation

            From keimai; a couch; by extension, cohabitation; by implication, the male sperm — bed, chambering, X conceive.

            arsenokoités

            arsenokoités: a sodomite

            Transliteration: arsenokoités

            Short Definition: homosexuals

            Of course, you think you know better than scholars of Biblical languages, both theists and non theists, right? It’s that authority you gave yourself, right?

          • Spoob

            Jesus stated about marriage in Genesis? So he pre-existed just because he was so opposed to gay marriage? Where did he speak against gay marriage? I am not talking about the apostles, I am talking about Jesus.

            So you think that in ancient times, they had coined a word for homosexuality when it took us English-speaking boors over 1800 years to come up with a word for it?

            Come on.

            I do give you credit at least for suggesting that the references in the Bible that talk about men laying with men might be verses about male prostitution. There are whole websites that suggest that including one you might benefit from called religioustolerance.org which is a site written to keep Christians from tearing each other to shreds because they can’t seem to agree about anything.

            Do YOU think you know better than scholars of Biblical languages? Everyone’s unsure, but not you, right?

            Also, here’s the question you avoided last time, all over again: What if the Bible told you that you must execute gay people, even though we know in this day and age that homosexuality isn’t an illness and requires no cure? Would you do it?

          • MC

            “Jesus stated about marriage in Genesis? So he pre-existed just because he was so opposed to gay marriage? Where did he speak against gay marriage? I am not talking about the apostles, I am talking about Jesus.”

            I don’t know what you mean by, “pre-existed”? Are you telling me you don’t believe in the Trinity? You’d be the first Catholic I ever met that didn’t believe in the Trinity.

            Genesis 2:22-24 (NASB)
            [Ge 22]
            The LORD God
            fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her
            to the man.
            [23] The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And
            flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman,
            Because she was taken out of Man.”
            [24] For this reason a
            man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they
            shall become one flesh.

            And Jesus reiterates it again Matthew:

            Matthew 19:4-6 (NASB)
            [Mt 4]
            And He answered and said, “Have you not
            read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

            [5] and said,
            ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS
            FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’?

            [6] “So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore
            God has joined together, let no man separate.”

            “So you think that in ancient times, they had coined a word for homosexuality when it took us English-speaking boors over 1800 years to come up with a word for it?”

            You have to show verifiable evidence for your assertion that people of that time didn’t know what homosexual acts were. I already gave you the words for homosexual acts in the ancient Biblical languages in another post.

            What exactly do you mean by, “I am not talking about the apostles”? Are you saying you don’t believe in the Holy Spirit either? You do know, like Jesus, that the Holy Spirit is God?

            John 14:26 (NASB)
            “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will
            send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all
            that I said to you.

            John 16:12-15 (NASB)
            [Jn 12]
            “I have many more things to say to you, but
            you cannot bear them now.
            [13]
            “But when He,
            the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will
            not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He
            will disclose to you what is to come.
            [14]
            “He will
            glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

            [15] “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I
            said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

            So, why are you trying to discredit the apostles since the Holy Spirit spoke through them?

            “Everyone’s unsure, but not you, right?”

            No, I’m not unsure. Can you list these Biblical scholars that say they’re unsure?

            “Also, here’s the question you avoided last time, all over again: What if the Bible told you that you must execute gay people, even though we know in this day and age that homosexuality isn’t an illness and requires no cure? Would you do it?”

            I already answered your silly question the first time. We’re NOT under the old judicial law anymore. The reason people were put to death for committing homosexual acts back then was because they were under the judicial law of THAT time. The United States has a different judicial system than ancient Israel. But it is still an abomination because it goes against God’s Moral Law.

          • MC

            “And a question for you: What if the Bible told you that you must execute gay people”

            We are not under the judicial law of that time anymore, are you saying you want to bring it back?

          • Spoob

            Am I saying I want to bring it back? No, that would be your side, not mine. I’m the one urging everyone to live without judging and with peace.

            No, all I did was ask you a question. Are you going to answer it?

          • MC

            What does, “your side” mean? The Pope and the RCC believe marriage is between a man and a woman, that’s YOUR church. Live without judging? Why, when we are commanded by God to judge all things? Are you saying that Christians should disregard God’s words because you think it’s mean? What Catholic church do you go to that preaches a cotton candy, sugar-coated Gospel? That’s not the Gospel Jesus and the apostles preached.

          • Spoob

            Yes, we have established that is what the Pope and the RCC believe. We have also established that I disagree with them. I can do that. I have that right. I’m not the only one either, there’s a whole organization called Dignity USA who stand up for the rights of homosexual Catholics.

            So you’re saying you have scriptures that tell you to judge? Well, I’ve pointed out ones that tell you not to. See how confusing that makes the Bible? What do you make of that discrepancy?

            Am I saying that Christians should disregard God’s words because they’re mean? That depends. Firstly you should determine that they actually ARE mean, or unreasonable, or unfollowable, or whatever. Maybe it’s a problem with interpretation or translation.

            If you come to the conclusion that the Bible is 100% telling you to do something hateful, yes, I think you should disregard it.

            I’ve already made it pretty clear to you that I don’t side with the Catholics on every issue, I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to comprehend.

          • MC

            “Yes, we have established that is what the Pope and the RCC believe. We have also established that I disagree with them. I can do that. I have that right. I’m not the only one either, there’s a whole organization called Dignity USA who stand up for the rights of homosexual Catholics.”

            Yes, you do have that right, no one said you didn’t. Knock yourself out.

            “So you’re saying you have scriptures that tell you to judge? Well, I’ve pointed out ones that tell you not to. See how confusing that makes the Bible? What do you make of that discrepancy?”

            There is no discrepancy at all, it says to judge with righteous judgement and not to judge hypocritically. It doesn’t say that Christians are not to judge anytime.

            “Am I saying that Christians should disregard God’s words because they’re mean? That depends. Firstly you should determine that they actually ARE mean, or unreasonable, or unfollowable, or whatever. Maybe it’s a problem with interpretation or translation.”

            No, there is no “meanness”, in God’s Word. Only love, telling a person they are living contrary to God’s Moral Law is not mean, that is pure love. Doing it like the Westboro Baptist Cult is mean, I personally don’t think they’re Christians. Anyway, not wanting someone to lose their soul and preaching the Gospel is love not hate. If I saw that the bridge was out and didn’t stop to warn other drivers of the sure death that awaits them, what kind of person would that make me, it sure wouldn’t make me a loving person, would it. The most loving thing I could do is get out and warn them. I can disagree about gay marriage, I can disagree that religious people should be forced to bake a cake, or take photographs, or provide flowers and a place for gay people to get married, I can disagree with all of that and still love all gay people. There is no hate just because one disagrees with another person. I don’t know why that it’s so hard for you to comprehend?

          • Spoob

            How do you know what is “righteous judgment” though? I’m quite certain that anyone who thinks they are right about something is going to invoke the “righteous judgment” excuse, even if they’re terribly wrong. Basically anyone with an ego is going to say they have the right to judge righteously. I’m sure the Westboro Baptists did/do.

            I live with a foot in science and a foot in religion. When science says there’s not any reason to discriminate against people based on sexuality, and they’ve studied it as extensively as they have, then I believe them. It’s as simple as that. I see no issue letting people fall in love, it doesn’t affect me in any way and it makes them happy and no one gets hurt. Based on that, I fail to see a single reason God would take issue, not even BUT THE BIBLE SAYS.

            I must disagree that there is no hate, when people like Oboehner is using colorful phrases like Turd Burglar and Fur Trader how can you say it’s NOT hate?

            On another note, however, I will say that my discussion with you has been the one genuinely interesting one because you have kept it measured and polite, and so I thank you for that.

          • MC

            If you had really done a scholarly study of God’s laws you would have known the differences between them, who they were for, why the ceremonial law was temporary, etc. This is actually Christianity 101.

            If an Israelite broke God’s moral law then he had to bring an offering to the sacrificial law, which is part of the ceremonial law, also known as the Mosaic Law, to receive forgiveness. Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial law, (ceremonial law) on the cross, when Jesus said “it is finished” and died, the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom which signified the sacrificial law was forever nailed to the cross. Unless of course you want to go back to sacrificing animals for forgiveness of sins, in which case you are saying the sacrifice of Jesus was in vain. Homosexual acts fall under God’s moral law, to commit homosexual acts is immoral to God. Just like murder, adultery, fornication, etc. Also, the ceremonial law was for Israel only, not for Gentiles, the Moral law is for everyone, even non believers and it is unchanging because it’s a reflection of God’s character.

            “Leviticus 18:24-30 (NASB)

            ‘Do not defile yourselves by any of these things; for by all these

            the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.

            [25] ~’For the land has become

            defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed

            out its inhabitants.

            [26] ~’But as

            for you, you are to keep My statutes and My judgments and shall not do any of

            these abominations, neither the native, nor the alien who sojourns among

            you

            [27] (for the men of the land who

            have been before you have done all these abominations, and the land has become

            defiled);

            [28] so that the land will

            not spew you out, should you defile it, as it has spewed out the nation which

            has been before you.

            [29] ~’For

            whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be

            cut off from among their people.

            [30]

            ~’Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of

            the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile

            yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.’”

            Ephesians 2:15-16 (NASB)

            [Eph 15]

            by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of

            commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make

            the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

            [16] and might reconcile them both in one body to

            God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

            Matthew 5:17-19 (NASB)

            [Mt 17]

            “Do not think that I came to abolish the

            Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

            [18] “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass

            away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is

            accomplished.

            [19] “Whoever then annuls one of the

            least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be

            called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches

            them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

            Hebrews 10:1-4 (NASB)

            [Heb 1]

            For the Law, since it has only a shadow of

            the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by

            the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect

            those who draw near.

            [2] Otherwise,

            would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once

            been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?

            [3] But in those sacrifices there is a

            reminder of sins year by year.

            [4]

            For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away

            sins.

            Hebrews 10:10 (NASB)

            By this will we have been sanctified through

            the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

            You need to study Christianity 101.

          • Spoob

            You need to study logical fallacies. Specifically the argument from silence. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. He said nothing about gay marriage. How is he supposed to “forgive” what he never mentioned in the first place?

            This is Common Sense 101.

          • MC

            Um, Jesus gave us the model of what a marriage is, between a man and a woman, TWICE! Jesus told us homosexual acts are an abomination, the apostles, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who IS God, tells us ALL about homosexual acts and what happens to those who practice homosexuality. But lets take a look at your failed argument, you’re basically saying that Jesus is cool with pedophilia and smoking crack because he didn’t come out and say it. The reason Jesus didn’t have to say the words, “Homosexual acts are a sin”, is because he had already said it, and homosexual acts were against Jewish law anyway. Where do you think they got the law from? How many times does he have to say it since they already knew it was against Jewish law? Talk about beating a dead horse. Yes, it is common sense 101, learn it.

          • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

            It sounds as though you are saying that before government does anything, it ought to check with Scripture to make sure it is consistent with biblical teaching.

            If it involves an issue where there is disagreement between denomination, is there a default denomination that government should turn to for guidance in enforcing God’s law through government?

          • MC

            No, I never said that or implied that. We do not live in a theocracy so your argument fails. Also, in my other post, I stated we no longer follow the judicial law of that time because we in America follow the judicial laws of the United States of THIS time. So, again, your argument fails, but your argument was a straw man so it burned itself because it was self refuting.

          • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

            I’m glad I was mistaken in my understanding of your comment, then!

          • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

            But it wasn’t really “an argument” that could fail, so much as it was a request for further clarification.

            Too much coffee this morning?

          • MC

            No, I don’t drink coffee. I’m glad I could clarify it for you.

          • Spoob

            Did Jesus give you the model of what a marriage is or did he simply say that a man and a women were called to be joined together? That’s hardly an all-encompassing statement, and it’s a real stretch for you to make it mean all the extra stuff you want it to. How much time do you want to invest in talking about the ifs and ands and buts and notwithstandings and caveats?

            Jesus did NOT tell you homosexual acts are an abomination. He did NOT. Search the Bible for it all you like, you will not find it. I can add anything I like by saying it was done through the holy spirit too, you’re just playing games now.

            There wasn’t room in the Bible for Jesus to say all the things he was and wasn’t cool with. Although I’m a Christian I don’t require a Bible as my moral compass. Smoking crack is a destructive thing to do, it doesn’t require a Bible or a Jesus for me to know it’s a bad idea. Pedophilia isn’t consensual because a child cannot consent. It’s abuse, and it’s illegal, and it’s very clearly bad. Again, no Jesus required. I have talked to people on this forum who “just to be safe” don’t eat shellfish. “Just to be safe” they also don’t put up pictures of Jesus in their houses because that would somehow be idolatry (even though they’re not worshipping anything).

            How exactly are you following this Bible of yours? Reasonably, or rigidly?

          • MC

            “Jesus did NOT tell you homosexual acts are an abomination. He did NOT. Search the Bible for it all you like, you will not find it. I can add anything I like by saying it was done through the holy spirit too, you’re just playing games now.”

            Um, you do know that Jesus is God, right? If Jesus is God, like he said he is, then you know that Jesus has always existed, he is the Alpha and Omega, And you do know that the Holy Spirit is God, right? Why do you throw God, the Holy Spirit, under the bus all the time, like he’s not important? So, there is no “making stuff up”, as Jesus, who is God, and has always existed, said homosexual acts are an abomination. To say Jesus never said that would be making stuff up. Who do you think gave Moses the ten commandments?

            “Although I’m a Christian I don’t require a Bible as my moral compass.”

            Morality comes from God, but yes, I see you don’t believe in God’s Moral Law.

            “Pedophilia isn’t consensual because a child cannot consent. It’s abuse, and it’s illegal, and it’s very clearly bad.”

            Why would it be wrong if Jesus never spoke about it, wouldn’t the concept of “wrong” be subjective? And you say it’s illegal, well, so was gay marriage in the U.S. You say smoking crack is bad for you, well, homosexuals have a shorter lifespan than heterosexuals, then we see the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the gay community in the United States, seems like the homosexual lifestyle is also dangerous for your health.

            “Obituaries numbering 6,516 from 16 U.S. homosexual journals over the past 12 years were compared to a large sample of obituaries from regular newspapers.23 The obituaries from the regular newspapers were similar to U.S. averages for longevity; the medium age of death of married men was 75, and 80% of them died old (age 65 or older). For unmarried or divorced men the median age of death was 57, and 32% of them died old. Married women averaged age 79 at death; 85% died old. Unmarried and divorced women averaged age 71, and 60% of them died old.

            The median age of death for homosexuals, however, was virtually the same nationwide–and, overall, less than 2% survived to old age. If AIDS was the cause of death, the median age was 39. For the 829 gays who died of something other than AIDS, the median age of death was 42, and 9% died old. The 163 lesbians had a median age of death of 44, and 20% died old.

            Two and eight-tenths percent (2.8%) of gays died violently. They were 116 times more apt to be murdered; 24 times more apt to commit suicide; and had a traffic-accident death-rate 18 times the rate of comparably-aged white males. Heart attacks, cancer and liver failure were exceptionally common. Twenty percent of lesbians died of murder, suicide, or accident–a rate 487 times higher than that of white females aged 25-44. The age distribution of samples of homosexuals in the scientific literature from 1989 to 1992 suggests a similarly shortened life-span.”

            “In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age 20 years for gay and bisexual men is 8 to 20 years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged 20 years will not reach their 65th birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871.”— Oxford Journal, British Columbia Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, St Paul’s Hospital, Vancouver, Canada.

            “To the best of our knowledge this is the first population-based assessment of mortality in a demographically defined, complete group of gay and lesbian persons. Despite dramatic reductions in AIDS-associated mortality over the past decade, our study shows that same-sex–marrying Danish men and women have overall mortality rates that are currently 33% to 34% higher than those of the general population.”—-US National Library of Medicine

          • Spoob

            Jesus is God, but they are separate entities, and since the Bible usually (if not always) indicates whether Jesus or God is speaking, I do find it quite telling that there is no mention of Jesus specifically addressing homosexuality.

            I simply disagree that morality comes from God, given the number of thoroughly moral atheists out there. I may disagree with them regarding God, but if every atheist was out there raping, torturing and killing, we might have something to talk about. “Wrong” might easily be defined as someone doing something to someone against their will – examples would be murder, rape, torture, etc. I would agree with you that promiscuous gay people are hurting one another. But not monogamous ones.

            I must seriously question some of the statements you make, specifically regarding homosexual lifespans. Back in the 80s when AIDS was “the gay disease”, yes, no question about it, homosexual lifespans (for those who had unprotected and promisculous relations) were shorter. But now the demographic with the highest amount of AIDS is single black women. Furthermore, a monogamous gay couple is at no risk for STDs just as a straight couple. Disease comes from multiple partners and unprotected intercourse, and I’m afraid nature doesn’t discriminate between gay and straight people when it comes to that. If you are unprotected and have many partners, gay or straight, you’re at higher risk. This is the reason I cannot understand why so many Christians oppose gay marriage. Two people are committing to one another, monogamy is healthy and morally (one may argue) more acceptable as well, so why deny it?

          • Terry Roll

            Google Council of Nicaea…..you can thank the Catholics for your version of the Bible

          • Oboehner

            Nope, despite catholic propaganda, my version is not the corrupted catholic version sorry.

          • The Last Trump

            “DO…NOT…LIE…WITH…A…MAN…AS…YOU…WOULD…WITH
            …A…WOMAN”

            Which of the words exactly are you having such difficulty in translating?

          • Spoob

            The one that isn’t there. I’ve told you this ten times at LEAST.

          • The Last Trump

            So please explain. What exactly is this a picture of and why would it be an abomination deserving of death? We have to make sure we understand this command, right? Heaven forbid we accidentally do it! Oh, and leave out all the twisting and interpreting that you “don’t do” please. (Boy, this ought to be good….No, no. No hurry. Taaaaake your time, Twister. We’ll wait. 🙂

          • Spoob

            No twisting. No interpreting. You want a certain 3-letter word to be so much an important part of this bit of scripture you keep throwing in everyone’s face, but try as you might, you can’t, because IT IS NOT THERE. LOOK FOR YOURSELF TRUMPY. IT’S NOT THERE. So why do you keep pretending that it is?

          • The Last Trump

            Sooo……no explanation whatsoever for this scripture? …Again.
            I don’t think anybody here is the least bit surprised. We all know VERY WELL what is so very clearly depicted here. So much so, you couldn’t possibly even offer up an alternative explanation without looking like the complete imbecile you apparently are. How embarrassing.

          • Spoob

            What are you asking for Trumpy, a laundry list of reasons a man might lie with another man rather than a woman? How should I know? How should I know why it’s being commanded as a sin? How much of a sin can it be when it didn’t make the big Top Ten, though? And why have you zeroed in on this particular “sin” to the point of practically letting all the other ones go by? Your behavior is what needs to be explained here. How embarrassing (for you).

          • The Last Trump

            “AS YOU WOULD WITH A WOMAN” um….I think you forgot this KEY part. Any thoughts? No? Didn’t think so. Nite!

          • Spoob

            Yup, you can repeat the phrase as many times as you like, no incriminating magic word is going to appear, no matter how hard you pray for it to. Have a good night’s sleep with your partner…enjoy his company as you would with a woman…

          • The Last Trump

            Seriously? STILL nothing! Can’t come up with a single explanation for what is clearly depicted? Not surprising. Deflect. Evade. Change the subject. Anything but an actual response. Typical LGBT tactics.
            Not looking good here, Spoobs! Looking pretty weak , Twister. Enough already about words that hadn’t been “invented” yet. Simply describe the situation that God has graciously SPELLED OUT FOR YOU WORD FOR WORD in order to avoid any unnecessary squabbling over terminology. (Imagine if they had actually coined the term “homosexuality” way back then! There would be endless debates today about what that one word actually meant! Thanks for making it so painfully plain God. 🙂
            Still waiting, Spinster. For like, what, the fifth or sixth time? No hurry. Don’t worry about it. Nobody here actually expects an honest answer from you. Just keep babbling on about 20th century terms that CLEARLY DESCRIBE the depicted behavior but, of course, didn’t exist at that time. Shocker.

          • Spoob

            I’ll write this response in Trumpyese to make it more palatable for you:

            Blah blah Twister blah blah Spoobs blah blah Spooster blah blah Spoobmester blah blah spinster blah blah Spoobenhoffer blah blah interpretation. Blah blah LGBT whine whine sob sob blah blah blah mommy come wipe my bum.

            A few simple questions:

            1) How is an action “clearly depicted” when the word itself is not mentioned? As in, not there at all? Not on the printed page or screen? Who is deflecting by this practice? Who is evading? who is changing the subject (especially when I’ve been talking about it nonstop throughout this entire thread)?

            2) Even if I HAD evaded, deflected, or changed the subject, how is this “typical” of an LGBT person, and why do you continue to tell me I’m LGBT after I’ve already told you I’m married to a woman?

            3) Why don’t you tell me where what you’re trying so hard to make yourself believe is CLEARLY DESCRIBED in the way you say it is? And if you mean men having relations with other men, it would be helpful if those words were actually used in the passage you quote.

          • The Last Trump

            Disappointing. But not surprising. It took you 5 paragraphs and 3 points to say …. absolutely nothing, once again. And, remarkably, these 5 paragraphs and 3 points of evading and deflecting are actually all about how you don’t evade or deflect! Absolutely surreal!

            It’s alright though, Spoobs. I know that you can’t possibly answer my simple question with any degree of honesty without your entire case suddenly, and irrevocably coming to an abrupt end. I wouldn’t answer it either if I were you.

            “Do not lie with a man AS YOU WOULD with a woman” has only one possible “interpretation”. How would you LIE WITH a woman that you are here told NOT TO DO WITH ANOTHER MAN? Exactly. Case closed. No brainer. Nuff said. No interpretations necessary. Any simpleton could “get the picture”. Duh!

            But, somehow, believe it or not, the LGBT community just can’t seem to grasp the simple meaning here! How ironic. And predictable. If you “claim” that you don’t understand it, you get to play the ignorance card and go ahead and do what you KNOW FULL WELL it’s telling you not to do. Good luck with that.

            In your desperate attempts to do what you know full well God has commanded us not to do, you try to confuse the issue by constantly babbling on about how 20th century terms AREN’T written in books from antiquity!!?? Seriously!? THIS is your case!? How childishly ridiculous. And absolutely moronic. Devoid of even the simplest of logic. I’m embarrassed FOR you!

            Let me help you out here, junior. See, language changes over time. And different languages will, of course, have different words for any given subject. “Homosexuality”, for instance, is a modern term that, wouldn’t you know, sums up nicely, in just one word, this particular sentence: “when a man lies with another man AS HE WOULD WITH A WOMAN” or “when a woman lies with another woman AS SHE WOULD WITH A MAN”. Now, wasn’t that nice and efficient of 20th century writers to condense all of those words from antiquity into one descriptive modern term? And nobody had any trouble whatsoever comprehending the simple meaning of these words for countless generations. Until now. What another amazing coincidence! Not.

            Best of luck to you and yours with THAT position! You’re definitely going to need it. If I were you though, I’d be a little less concerned about 20th century terms that aren’t there(!?) and more concerned about the words that ARE.

            No need to respond. Just try to be honest with yourself. You have a lot riding on your decision. And I don’t want to see anybody spend eternity in deep regret. 🙁

          • Spoob

            No need to respond? Why? Does the truth frighten you that much, Trumpy? You don’t make the rules here. I am going to respond.

            Just because you don’t want to acknowledge what I wrote doesn’t mean there’s nothing there. I just read it back. It’s completely straightforward, unless you are a moron….oh yeah.

            And there isn’t a single question you’ve asked me that I haven’t answered. How much longer do you want to play this game? You twist, you accuse me of twisting. You evade, you accuse me of evading. You can’t form a single coherent idea and you accuse me of being confused. Listen up, little one.

            “”Do not lie with a man AS YOU WOULD with a woman” has only one possible “interpretation”. Well, clearly not! And do I need to refer you YET AGAIN to the religioustolerance.org site? How many times is that now, like 18? You haven’t acknowledged it one single time, and it makes all the same exact points I have made. But I’m evading, right? I’m twisting?

            The LGBT community can’t grasp the meaning here? Why are you bringing them into this again? Some of them acknowledge it, and some don’t. You keep trying to stick everyone in one convenient box, but you CAN’T DO THAT. People are not as one-dimensional as you keep making them out to be.

            Guess what, Trumpy? 20TH CENTURY TERMS AREN’T WRITTEN IN BOOKS FROM ANTIQUITY. Moronic? Embarrassing? Childish, ridiculous, and devoid of logic? THEN WHY ARE THERE ENTIRE WEBSITES DEDICATED TO DISCUSSING IT? How utterly and completely stupid are you? Seriously Trumpy, you’ve got freaking ROCKS in your head.

            And I don’t know what brand of English you speak or were taught as a child, but in practically every single household I can name, “lie with” means “lie with”, not “copulate with”. Try that one out in your workplace sometime and see if people have the foggiest idea what you’re talking about. I DARE you. I can take every single word in that sentence, one by one, and get a dictionary definition, and you would NOT be left with what you’re trying SO HARD to make it mean, you and all the other bigots.

            There’s very little left to say to you Trumpy. You’re irretrievably hopeless, stupid, bigoted and without the faintest grasp of the English language.

          • The Last Trump

            Firstly, thank you. “I’m evading, right? I’m twisting.” I’ll bet it felt good to finally get that off your chest. Acknowledging the truth is the first step, little buddy! Good job!
            Secondly, no, you STILL have not answered (big surprise) the one and only question, the million dollar question, that we all know you simply cannot answer. This childish and absolutely ridiculous scenario you like to vainly grasp at, in embarrassing desperation, of a man simply lying down harmlessly, and innocently, next to another man (AS YOU WOULD WITH A WOMAN!? – whatever, right? Just ignore it, I guess eh?) is considered an ABOMINATION deserving of DEATH, by our Creator……….um,………..wait for it………wait for it……….WHY!!!!!!?????? EXACTLY?
            That is correct, Booob, I mean “Spoob”. IT WOULD NOT BE AN ABOMINTION DESERVING OF DEATH, would it? Huh. So what WOULD be? Sure as hell not YOUR “interpretation” or we’d ALL be dead, eh?
            Case is closed, my friend. You’ll have to come up with something a little more tangible than “I don’t know what it means” (Puh-lease!). A simpleton knows what it means. Generations of mankind have known what it means. But you and your “friends” can’t figure it out? Just a giant mystery to you folks? Just skip it and move on, eh? Don’t look now Spoobs. But your embarrassment is showing. And your gross stupidity. I have no further time to waste on this debacle. To continue to debate a complete and confirmed fool, would make me just as foolish. Happy trails.

          • Spoob

            The point of course being that I’m neither evading nor twisting, but have your stillborn little joke, it’s all the same to me.

            You are getting VERY worked up about a single passage of scripture. That’s plain. And let’s just SAY you are 100% correct and that passage refers to homosexuality, if you haven’t cut off your hand when it caused you to sin or plucked an eye out, then you’re just picking and choosing the scripture you want to follow.

            And maybe THAT isn’t even the biggest thing you should be focusing on. If your religion, whether it be Islam or the radical fundamentalist pseudo-Christianity you follow, causes you to hate, what good has it done you? How has it benefited you in any way? There is a good strong case to be make for common sense Christianity, but is that what the Westboro lunatics have been following? Is it what YOU have been following, if you want to see homosexuals executed?

            Fundamentalism is fundamentalism. When you start to call for people being put to death in the name or your religion, you’ve forfeited your right to be called a sane human being. You do not benefit mankind in any way, and you need to re-evaluate your entire belief system. That is the position you are in Trumpy. I’m going to recommend you look at leaving fundamentalist Christianity, that you get yourself in for some intense psychotherapy, and that you stop posting on message boards until you can relate to people like regular human beings.

          • MC

            What else did “humans” write in the Bible? If you think they got that wrong then what else did they get wrong? Maybe they got Jesus wrong, maybe he said to hate your neighbors, maybe he didn’t die on the cross, maybe he didn’t exist? Where do YOU draw that line, when it aligns with your personal bias?

          • Spoob

            I don’t believe some of you people. How hard is it for you not to hate others?

          • MC

            So, what are the answers to my questions? Also, I don’t understand what you mean by, “hate others”? When or where did “hate others” come into the discussion?

          • Spoob

            Your questions have been answered. By hate others I mean use your religious beliefs to oppress them as though they are laws even though they are not and no one outside of your faith is bound by them. Hating others came into this discussion when you took offense in the fact that I refuse to hate others based on my faith.

          • The Last Trump

            We love you little buddy! It’s you who hate us for loving God and staying faithful to His commands. Understand yet? YOU hate us. YOU keep coming here to tell us as much. WE just keep quoting scripture. Take your case to God Spoobs. Tell Him all about how you’ve “interpreted” His commands concerning marriage and family to be pro sexual perversion. I’m sure He’ll understand….

          • Spoob

            Cute Trumpy, you’re staying faithful to your own hatred, it’s nothing to do with God. Understand yet, little buddy?

          • The Last Trump

            That you believe in the Bible? Well, there you have it then. Nuff said.

          • Spoob

            Not a chance that I’m going to oppress and hate human beings over something they don’t ask for and isn’t an illness. Silly, eh?

          • Gary

            Every homosexual chooses to behave as a homosexual. It is not something they cannot control.

          • Spoob

            Well then, you need to read a mental health or science based website to prove to yourself that you are wrong. Your thinking is antiquated.

          • Gary

            Yes, I know you think the Bible is antiquated. That is one of the reasons you don’t believe it.

          • Spoob

            You are deeply crazy. Your opinion is of no consequence.

          • Terry Roll

            How do you know? You just say that because it fits your narrative, but in reality if you “God” exists, he is the one who made them that way in the first place.

          • Gary

            You want to blame God for the behavior of homosexuals? How about thieves and liars? You want to blame God for their behavior too? What about your behavior? Are you responsible, or is God?

          • The Last Trump

            Agreed. Homosexuality is silly. And pointless. Bunch of folks who can’t seem to figure out where their parts go! Sad really.

          • Spoob

            I don’t think they had too much trouble figuring it out, Trumpy. As long as they love each other who cares what they do? Certainly not Jesus.

          • The Last Trump

            There you have it folks. Once again the Apostate speaks and deceit spills forth. Sad.

          • Spoob

            Playing to the crowd yet again (sigh). Shall we get you a big polka dotted bow tie and a gold lame master of ceremonies jacket to wear as you sneer, condescend, mug furiously for your legion of fans? Yes, how utterly DECEPTIVE of me to suggest that people are free to love each other. Shocking. Depraved.

          • MC

            Satan believes in the Bible too, and we see proof of it in these trolls.

        • MC

          He doesn’t want to oppose himself.

      • Oboehner

        That’s because you’re catholic, and believe tradition of men trumps the Word of God.

        • Spoob

          No, I believe it comprises the word of God, along with the Bible.

          • Oboehner

            The Bible is God-breathed, your pagan traditions are not.

          • Spoob

            Just because Jack Chick says so doesn’t make it true. History books are your friends.

          • Oboehner

            Seek help for that Jack Chick obsession, it’s really starting to creep me out.
            The Bible (remember the Word of God?) clearly states it IS true and it is your friend.

          • Spoob

            I think you will find that your more bizarre accusations against the Catholics are easily and verifiably traced back to Jack Chick. What is worrisome to me is that you claim not to know him when he wrote your entire playbook.

          • Oboehner

            No answer, just more Chick fetish, no surprise.

          • Spoob

            Stop quoting stupid, unverifiable Chick quotes and you won’t have that problem. I cannot defend fiction, only historical facts.

          • Oboehner

            I have done no such thing, chick fetish boy. I guess that would explain your love of gayness.

          • Spoob

            Well then, give me something to work with. If Chick didn’t say the crap you’re trying to float, who did? Afraid to reveal your source? Oh and please don’t say God or the Bible, because we both know that is a sad and desperate cop-out.

          • Oboehner

            “Oh and please don’t say God or the Bible, because we both know that is a sad and desperate cop-out.” Now with the pre cop-out cop-out. We both know I have posted that answer, you are only trying to weasel out – sorry the Bible is clear.

          • Spoob

            You’re not getting off the hook that easily, this is starting to sound like the discussion I’m having with Trumpy who says that the Bible says the Obama is a Muslim. Please tell me where in the Bible it says that the traditions and church teachings of the early church are not from God. And if you can’t, I want to know WHO, if it’s NOT Jack Chick, taught you that.

          • Oboehner

            “Please tell me where in the Bible it says that the traditions and church teachings of the early church are not from God.” The old prove a negative fallacy, why don’t you tell me where in the Bible where it says I can’t say “butt pirate”, or “fur-trader”?

          • Spoob

            No, you clearly do not understand burden of proof. If you make a claim like you did it is on you to back it up. I cannot properly debate with you if you don’t understand the rules. I am the one who has the negative position so I have nothing to prove. You do. Or you can just sit back loftily tossing filthy epithets around. Entirely your choice. Funny also how you never, ever acknowledge the love that exists between homosexuals, all you talk about is the physical aspect. Why?

          • Oboehner

            “Please tell me where in the Bible it says that the traditions and church teachings of the early church are not from God.” Your statement. Another statement with the exact same point of reference: Please tell me where in the Bible where it says I can’t say “butt pirate”, or “fur-trader”?
            The only conclusion to reach is if the Bible through it’s not specifically denouncing the man-made traditions of the RCC makes them okeydokey, then on the same token saying things like turd-tapper and carpet-muncher are equally as acceptable.

            “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8

            “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9 – since you asked.

          • Spoob

            So, no acknowledgement gay and lesbian people can be in love? I can steer you back to the topic at hand even when you’re spouting filthy language for someone claiming to be Christian, it isn’t difficult.

            Always the focus on what people do in bed. And not a single one that they are in love. That says a lot about you. Facts are irrelevant to you.

          • MC

            How can you be Catholic, pro-homosexual marriage, when the Pope himself declares that marriage is between a man and a woman?

            ““The family is also threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage,” the pope said Jan. 16, hours after warning that Philippine society was “tempted by confusing presentations of sexuality, marriage and the family.”

            “As you know, these realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation and betray the very values which have inspired and shaped all that is best in your culture,” he said.”–Jan. 16, 2015

            “At the latter event, the pope called on his listeners to resist “ideological colonization that threatens the family.” The Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, said later that the Pope was referring to same-sex marriage, among other practices.

            “In November, Pope Francis told an interreligious conference on traditional marriage that preserving the family as an institution based on marriage between a man and a woman is not a political cause but a matter of “human ecology,” since “children have the right to grow up in a family with a father and mother capable of creating a suitable environment for the child’s development and emotional maturity.”

            So, how to reconcile the fact that the Pope and the RCC is against same-sex marriage if you’re a Catholic?

          • Spoob

            Because I’m not a robot, I’m not afraid to stand up and speak out against my religion when it’s wrong.

          • MC

            What “religion” would that be? Is it Catholicism? When did Catholicism start teaching that the Bible was made up by “silly men”, when did they start teaching that Scripture was, “misunderstood” and “mistranslated”, when did it call the Bible, “scary books”? When did the early Church fathers teach gay marriage is fine? When, who, and what gave you the authority after over two thousand years of Church history, to say your Catholic Church is wrong? What authority do you have to make that claim in stone?

          • Spoob

            Religion is a perfectly acceptable word to use, no need to put disapproving quotation marks around it. Christianity is a religion. Catholicism is a religion. Protestantism is a religion. The dictionary can help you verify these simple facts.

            Catholicism did none of the things you are asking. Why are you asking them?

            The early church fathers never taught that gay marriage was fine. Why are you asking?

            No one gave me the authority to say that the Catholic church was wrong about those things. I am a human being with a thinking brain that makes my own decisions. Just because I elect to follow a religion does not mean I will follow it when it is demonstrably wrong. I give myself the authority to make my own mind up and if the church doesn’t like it then I don’t care. You should try standing up to YOUR religion when it’s wrong, which it frequently is. It is liberating.

        • Terry Roll

          Catholics wrote the Bible AKA “the Word of God.”

          • Oboehner

            Wrong, the Old Testament existed long before simon magus started his twisted brand of paganism with Christian sounding names known as the RCC. The New Testament was written down by the real church, the body of believers.

        • MC

          He’s not a very good Catholic then since the Pope has said that marriage is between a man and a woman. How can he be a Catholic and reject his “Holy Father”?

          • Oboehner

            That puts him in a conundrum.

          • MC

            Yes it does. Honestly, the guy is one step away from being an agnostic marching in a gay parade.

          • Oboehner

            I’m thinking perhaps he’s a closet tail gunner.

          • MC

            He very well could be. You know the old saying from Hamlet, “The lady doth protest too much, methinks”.

      • The Last Trump

        I can testify to that! He’s a gay loving, non-Christian, Bible is full of errors, Christian bashing bigot. See the difference?

      • William Tyndale

        Neither am I.

  • http://www.OpenAirSeattle.blogspot.com/ OpenAirSeattle

    Mormins are so smart. They feeel appeasement will fix it all. As long as they can continue in their delusional cult faith, hey it’s o.k. The devil dosen’t care what you believe as long as it’s THE LIE.

    • Terry Roll

      They have as much proof of their beliefs as you do of yours, so maybe you should leave them be.

      • http://www.OpenAirSeattle.blogspot.com/ OpenAirSeattle

        The Bible is the proof mister.

  • Estevon

    Good for a church that believes in following Jesus Christ while still upholding the commandments of God!

    • Gary

      What?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Not-endorsing homosexuality is NOT discrimination. Violence is wrong, but Secular West must not attempt to bend the religious people’s conscience, either. The West has no Caesar anymore and it now tries to make people bow down before sexual immorality. Secularism is pathetic. Where is the quest for truth and the freedom of conscience which was the core of the Western Civilization? The West should never have lost Christianity; now the mankind has to battle for sanity instead of equality.

  • yeshuado

    Mormonism is just another religious cult which perverted the Bible and sound teaching of the Gospel, so i wouldn’t worry how much new perversions they will add to their sins. “Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.…” – Rev.22;11-12

    • jubilee

      ..along with the JWs
      the Christians would be the first ones to get behind the iron curtain, etc…
      and THEN they come LATER… LDS & JW in the old USSR.. etc.. or even in middle east

  • Dirck Kuzatjike

    #High-Five# to all the sons & daughters of God in the US, what you are going through now is but a taste of the evil that is to cover the whole earth before that terrible and dreadful day of the great White Throne of Judgement. For now please keep your eyes to the great commission and bring in as many fish as are willing to be caught and as the Holy Spirit delivers. Meditate on the scriptures in spirit and truth chilling while waiting for the rapture and the eventual defeat of Satan after he convince those that are to fall that sinfulness is ‘Cool’ and they stand with him to challenge the PrinceOfPeace the WonderfulCounsellor the AlmightyFather………. before all these we shall see this kind of decay but lets not compromise as we cry Maranatha to Abba Father!

  • Truthhurts24

    Yes protect the sodomites even though they have the most protection in the country and are corrupting society with their abnormal lifestyle as well as trampling on the rights of Christians who believe in Gods Word but this is the false Joseph Smith church so they could care less about righteousness.

  • Gary

    Why can’t the Mormons let other people choose who they associate with? Why do the Mormons want to force people to associate with sexual perverts?

  • John Mark IB

    gee, no surprise here, is it? isn’t that so nice of the Mormons ever trying to be so cool and as always deceptive as the cults are and try to gain a few possible converts and favor with man? while supposedly protecting religion?? compromise anyone?? can anybody say what you talkin’ bout Willis? as if they’re so dumb as to see that when you legalize sodomy and homosexuality and sexual lifestyles, so called sexual orientation and preferences which is what it really is their sexual preferences which should not be legalized period!! then you automatically cancel out so called religious freedoms it’s just the facts of our upside down fallen back to rome society, here’s hope for the dear lost person involved in any of these deathstyles….pas it on hope….

    http://faithsaves.net/truth-for-gay-friends/

    http://faithsaves.net

    http://46bza31pal0t21oxbq212zea.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Mormon.pdf
    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
    http://discoverthebible.org