Thousands Rally in Support of Christian Bakers Facing Lawsuit for Declining ‘Gay’ Cake

AshersBELFAST — Thousands in Ireland rallied on Wednesday in support of a Christian bakery that is fighting a civil lawsuit after it declined to make a Bert and Ernie cake that bore the phrase “support gay marriage.”

As previously reported, in May of last year, Ashers Baking Company in Newtonabbey—founded by Christians and named after Genesis 49:20—was approached by a same-sex “marriage” supporter to bake the cake, which also was to feature the logo for the homosexual advocacy group QueerSpace. According to the Belfast Telegraph, the cake was for an event in observance of the International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia.

Karen McArthur, the mother of manager Daniel McArthur, 24, initially accepted the order as she didn’t want the man to feel embarrassed. But as the matter was discussed with other family members, it was agreed upon that they could not go through with putting the message on the cake in good conscience before God. Daniel McArthur told reporters that the company contacted the customer and offered a refund, explaining that same-sex “marriage” is against their Christian beliefs.

However, the customer, Gareth Lee, soon reported Ashers Baking Company to the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland, which in turn sent a warning to to McArthur, stating that he and his bakery had discriminated against Lee. Same-sex “marriage” is not legal in Northern Ireland, although laws have been passed throughout the rest of the UK.

Last November, the Commission ordered the bakery to pay compensation or face legal action. As the McArthur’s refused, the case has now moved forward in court.

On Wednesday, thousands rallied at Waterfront Hall in Belfast in support of the McArthurs, filling the venue to capacity. According to reports, all of the 2,500 seats were filled, and hundreds more who could not get in stood outside singing hymns.

“We believe our loyalty to God is greater than anything else,” one supporter from Dundonald Presbyterian Church told the BBC.

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The following day, the McArthurs appeared in court to give an answer as to why they could not fulfill Lee’s order.

“We felt as Christians we could not in conscience put it on a cake. We believe the business is being given to us by God and how we use it is on our shoulders,” Daniel McArthur said on the stand. “Our Christian faith is [of] the utmost importance to us. It is how we run our entire lives and bring our families up. Before God, it is not something we could do.”

“That’s why I said to Mum, ‘Regardless, as Christians we are bound by what we believe,'” he explained.

His mother made similar remarks to the court.

“We seek to live at all times in accordance with the doctrines and teachings of the Bible. I have been a born-again Christian since I was seven. I love the Lord and I seek to please him in the way I live my life,” Karen McArthur said. “We discussed how we could stand before God and bake a cake like this promoting a case like this.”

Asher’s Bakery has stated that it is willing to serve homosexuals in general—one would not know about another’s sexual behavior unless they had requested a cake for such reasons—but should not be forced to decorate cakes with messages that urge others to “support gay marriage” in violation of their faith.

Photo: BBC News screenshot


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  • http://www.facebook.com/chuck.anziulewicz Chuck Anziulewicz

    A business is not a church. It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking about a bakery or a restaurant, a photo studio or a factory. They aren’t in the business of providing spiritual guidance or enforcing moral doctrines. They are there to turn a profit. As such, they are obligated to abide by prevailing civil rights laws, whether those laws protect people from discrimination based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.

    Conservative columnist Erick Erickson came to the defense of Christian business owners: “Committed Christians believe in a doctrine of vocation. They believe that their work is a form of ministry. Through their work, they can share the gospel and glorify God.”

    Oh, and also rake in as much money as possible. You can wax poetic all you want about “glorifying God,” but at the end of the day these businesses wouldn’t exist were it not for the profit motive.

    Should a restaurant owner be able to refuse service to Blacks because he has “moral objections” to race-mixing? Should an employer be able to fire a Muslim employee because he wants to run “a nice Christian workplace”? And if a Christian florist agrees to provide flower arrangements at a Muslim couple’s wedding, does it mean he is necessarily endorsing Islam?

    If the answer to these questions is NO, what justification is there refusing service to a Gay couple who wish to get a wedding cake or celebrate their anniversary in a restaurant?

    • Names_Stan

      Even more troubling, one could argue that in certain regions, they’re doing this precisely FOR the profit motive.

      In the southern US there are cars lined out of the parking lot at Chik-Fil-A daily. I didn’t find that to be the case ten years ago. And there are no doubt thousands who buy their little wicker thingamajigs at Hobby Lobby exclusively because of their political positions.

      Now we’re setting a precedent that little bakeries or formal wear or florist shops that nobody ever heard of, can get plenty of free advertising by refusing service (and calling the newspaper)…thereby earning the proud business of the staunchly religious in their area.

      • TheBBP

        It’s not the Christian businesses that are trying to create a huge media firestorm because they don’t want to support gay weddings.

        The beauty of what is happening in Indiana is that a personal business can stand by their faith. That comes with consequences good or bad. Some will boycott, some will shop solely to show support. It should be up to the business owner to have to deal with that.

        • Bill

          that worthless law won’t last long. the governor is already doing damage control.

        • BJay

          A person can ALWAYS take their business elsewhere!!!
          What do ya do when the Bakery, Photographer, Venue, Florist, Whatever is already booked and unable to properly provide for what you want???
          Hello!! Cross that one off. Go to the next Yellow Pages listing!
          Gee Willicures, we have become SUCH a stupid, NARCISSISTIC Society!!

      • BJay

        Names_Stan, your WORDS are troubling!!
        Don’t know WHAT part of our South you live in, however, please allow me to set you straight on something. We don’t support Chick-Fil-A, nor Hobby Lobby because of any so called “Political Positions”. Frankly, I honestly couldn’t tell you WHAT the ” POLITICAL POSITIONS ” are of the owners of Hobby Lobby, nor Chick-Fil-A.
        Hobby Lobby has been in business for at least a couple decades, and has hundreds of stores around the country. People LOVE working at Hobby Lobby stores BECAUSE they aregenerally treated with respect, the store hours are MUCH BETTER than other stores that stay open longer hours each day, AND Because they DON’T HAVE TO WORK ON SUNDAY, seeing as the Corporate Owners FOLLOW GOD’S WORD in SETTING ASIDE A DAY OF REST, SO THAT Employees can spend that day with their families!!!
        AND, if you have ever gone to a HL, you WILL SEE A Notice about this on the store doors.

        Are ALL Hobby Lobby employees in some church on Sunday Morning??
        I seriously doubt it!!! Yet, I know for a fact they GREATLY APPRECIATE working with a Company that is committed to operating its business in keeping with God’s Precepts on HOW we are to live and conduct our businesses.

        Any Chick-Fil-A restaurant you walk into is an INDIVIDUALLY OWNED AND OPERATED FRANCHISE, just like Wendy’s, Burger King, McDonalds, etc. There ARE Corporate guidelines to be followed, as in ALL Franchises. And one of those guidelines is that the restaurant IS TO BE CLOSED ON Sunday, IN KEEPING WITH God’s Word/Commands that one day a week be set aside as a Day of Rest, with no work in it.

        I have news for you, there are a number of places locally where I can buy the exact same things I can buy at Hobby Lobby. Yet, ALL OF US WHO Appreciate HL’s commitment to operating their business in accordance with Our God’s Laws ALWAYS SHOP HL FIRST!! They are PART OF OUR Family!! Of Course we are going to support them!!

        We do the same with Chick-Fil-A Restaurants, for the SAME Reasons!!! So, get out of your head, Name_Stan, the false notion that people support these great businesses for “Political Reasons”! Nothing about God’s Word, and HIS Precepts on HOW we are to live is political!!!

        We support the businesses of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ BECAUSE they are FOLLOWING God’s Word in HOW each of us, individually and collectively, are to live and operate in this world, Do YOU AND Yours have a problem with that?!?
        Take it up with Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and HIS Father, our Lord God Almighty. HE is in the business of changing hearts, one heart at a time.

        • Names_Stan

          Certainly you can haggle over the one word “political”, but your post reinforces exactly the gain for businesses that I described.

          You also reinforced my point on behalf of Hobby Lobby. If closing on Sunday wasn’t partly a marketing ploy, what would be the point of bragging about it on all their doors?

          I don’t claim their reasons are 100% marketing. What I’m saying is that there’s good business in taking anti- positions in this country at present, due to the Everything-is-Political climate.

          So basically it’s math. If a store closing on Sunday, which is less than 15% of the week, makes more than that in the other six days because they close…it’s proven a good business move.

    • BJay

      Chuck Anziulewicz, you may have not meant to, however your comments display much ignorance of God’s Word, HIS Instructions on HOW we Believers are to conduct our lives. Listing just a few Instructions here:
      “Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or WHATEVER you do, do it ALL to the Glory of God.”
      (I Corinthians, Chapter 10, verse 31)
      “In ALL your ways submit to the Lord, and HE shall make your paths straight.”
      (Proverbs, Chapter 3, verse 6)
      “ALL hard work brings a PROFIT.” (Proverbs, Chapter 14, Verse 23)
      “What does it PROFIT a man (or woman) if he gains the whole world, yet loses his soul?”
      (Matthew, Chapter 16, Verse 26)
      AND, Proverbs, Chapter 31, verses 10-31 sets a Wonderful Example of Setting Priorities, Wisdom, Hard Work that Brings ProfitProfit, Commitment to Family AND To The Lord (verse 30).

      I could go on and on listing WAY MORE from God’ Word on HOW we are to live AND CONDUCT Our Businesses. You see, Chuck, it’sNOT ABOUT Chasing the Almighty Dollar. For us Believers and Followers Almighty God and HIS Son, Jesus Christ, IT’S ABOUT SERVING HIM IN WHATEVER WE DO, TO PLEASE AND BRING GLORY TO HIM!!

      WHY are you, or anyone else, SO WILLING AND WANTING TO FORCE US to violate our Christian Commitment to Or Lord God an His Word?!?!?

      WHY are you, or anyone else SO WILLING AND WANTING TO STRIP US of our 1st Amendment Religious Freedom?!?!?

      Because, I’ve got news for you, and others, Chuck, we ARE NOT the only Bakeries or Wedding Venues in the Yellow Pages!!!
      And, here’s another thing,
      If you or anyone comes wanting to book my business for your event, and I have to turn you away because we are already booked cannot also handle your event, what are you going to do then????
      Are you going to be a reasonable human being and go to the next vendor listed in the Yellow Pages, or are you going to take me to court, strive to ruin me and my family financially because our business calendar was already full and we had to turn you away?!?!?

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        “WHY are you, or anyone else, SO WILLING AND WANTING TO FORCE US to violate our Christian Commitment to Or Lord God an His Word?!?!?”

        No one is “forced”. Opening a business is a choice, as is deciding what products you will offer to the public. There is no “forcing”.

        “WHY are you, or anyone else SO WILLING AND WANTING TO STRIP US of our 1st Amendment Religious Freedom?!?!?”

        Anti-discrimination laws do not strip people of their first amendment rights. There is no first amendment right to operate a business in violation of the law.

    • BobbyHead

      Chuck are you gay?

  • robertzaccour

    I’m glad so many people came to support them. We need more people like this here in America.

    • Kay Bus

      Christians are under attack more now and they are having their rights taken away. I shouldn’t be surprised by what is happening. The bible says these things will happen. God gives all people the right to choose how they want to live but some refuse to believe that they are doing something wrong and there will be a price they will have to pay if they choose to continue to live in sin and they get angry when they are told what they are doing is morally wrong. They cry discrimination and do whatever they have to in order to get their way even if it takes the rights away from others or hurt other people. This is not a discrimination issue. It is a moral issue. Christians have the right to believe in God’s Word and follow their moral convictions and abstain from doing anything that they believe God would not approve of according to His Word. I pray God will give these Christians the strength they need to stand against these attacks and persecution and pray those who are lost and blind to sin will come to know and receive the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ!

      • Peter Leh

        there is no “attack” here. only poor business policy.

        as a citizen you may say a do as you wish. As business you must follow rules and regulations you yourself agreed to in order to do business.

        businesses are not citizens. apples and oranges

        • http://www.engardehealth.com/ Roberta Gabor

          businesses have some rights too. You are not familiar with American Law.

          • Peter Leh

            owning more than one business… i can assure you i am very familiar. 🙂

    • eldercurt

      Amen

      • Lynda Falls

        Love your answers.

  • Frank

    Bravo

  • Sarah

    How about let the free market decide on what businesses fail or succeed
    !?!?

    • Bill

      the free market does nothing but make the rich richer and the poor poorer. the only way to keep filth like this *itch in line is with the law.

      • BJay

        Excuse you, Bill. You wanna FORCE ME to make a Penis or Vagina Cake?!? You wanna FORCE ME to violate MY Strong Commitment to Honor MY God in ALL that I do?!?!
        You REALLY WANT to take away my 1st Amendment RIGHT to practice MY Religion WITHOUT INTERFERENCE FROM You, or the government??? Really?!?!

        • Bill

          do you make cakes like that? if you do then you must sell them to anyone who can afford them no matter what your religion says. if not then no because it’s not a service you provide

          • Goldie Chaplan

            No, I don’t have to sell them to anyone who can afford them if he asks me to put something that is obscene or offensive on it. We are not slaves and we are still in a free country. Further, you don’t have the right to destroy a person because you can’t get them to do something that is offensive to them just so you can have your way. We have reached the point of ridiculousness.

          • Bill

            I do actually. if you break the law then you must face the consequences.

          • http://www.engardehealth.com/ Roberta Gabor

            If I want Kosher meat, I don’t go to a supermarket and demand Kosher meat and sue them because they wouldn’t provide me with Kosher meat. I do the sensible thing and go to a Kosher meat market and buy Kosher meat. You want a cake for a homosexual wedding find a baker that caters to your kind of cake.

        • uzza

          No, we don’t want to force you. That’s why we offer you a clear moral choice: take out a business license and agree to serve the public–including Christians, Jews, Muslims atheists, Satanists, gays, blacks, women–or, don’t get a business license.
          We don’t want you to violate the 9th commandment by signing the agreement and then not keeping your word.

          • BobbyHead

            No uzza you ignoramus. The Bible clearly says in matters of faith obey God not man.

          • uzza

            The Bible clearly states not to bear false witness. Which is exactly what you do when you agree to serve the public with no intention of doing so.

            BTW, it also advises against calling people raca which could be translated as ‘ignoramus’.

          • Goldie Chaplan

            you, sir, are misquoting scripture and I don’t think you know the laws (at least in America) very well.

          • uzza

            Please be kind enough to correct me where I’m wrong. Show me where the bible condones bearing false witness, and where the law does not require treating all members of the public equally.

          • BobbyHead

            You tell them Goldie!

          • BobbyHead

            Uzza is using the wrong scripture again to make a point. He is such an ignoramous full of hate against Christians

          • uzza

            The Bible is the wrong scripture for Christians?

          • william

            I think you must not be Christian or you would know what Jesus said–Give unto Caesar what is Caesars and to God what is God’s.

          • Goldie Chaplan

            Uzza, you’re wrong. If you came into my restaurant and acted rude and loud and obnoxious, you’d be thrown out. If you want certain kind of food you go to a restaurant that serves that kind of food. You don’t go in and make a spectacle of yourself.

          • BobbyHead

            Go get ’em Goldie!!

        • william

          Whoa here–you are very off base—you are not required by law to make something that might be taken as pornography but art that is a different situation–and if you when to court on this kind of issue –you probably would win.

        • Goldie Chaplan

          I think people have come to believe that if they walk into a restaurant or bakery they should get what they want and if they don’t they immediately cry “discrimination.” I know restaurants that want let you (men) in if you don’t have on a tie and jacket. Groceries stores want let you come in bare feet, they’ll ask you to leave.

      • Sarah

        Why can’t we respect each others differences and not force it on others. Unlike Individuals who are using the governent to inflict harm on people they don’t like or agree with; essentially using the government to directly threaten and harrass their fellow citizens.
        And in our day and age, this is happening NEEDLESSLY, as the free market provides plenty of options to prevent, eliminate, and circumvent such confrontations! Knowing that free market options exist, therefore, what justification is there to continue with these lawsuits, or to be opposed to religious protection laws? If a business will happily serve homosexuals, or any specific group, let them announce it: that will generate business for them, attracting customers away from businesses that don’t want to serve them anyway. A Win-Win situation. Just as Chick-Fil-A did with its conservative stance, and other companies have done in favor of the lgbt community. Everybody wins.

      • http://www.engardehealth.com/ Roberta Gabor

        free market helps those who work. Think of all the large corporations and all the employees that work for them. Big businesses also provide jobs for people.

    • Peter Leh

      how did that work in the south?

      • Sarah

        Yea that’s comparing apples to oranges

  • Melissa Snell

    How very Christian of you. So glad to see so many people walk the walk of hate and bigotry. Please, keep letting the rest of the caring, tolerant world know who you are and which businesses you run. It makes it SO much easier for us, potential customers, to publicly boycott your hateful garbage.

    • BobbyHead

      Melissa, you are a type of the anti-Christ.

      Oh… and you say that you are part of the tolerant world; you are not tolerant of Christians, you hypocrite.

      • Peter Leh

        political statement do not bring others to christ. discrimination is not a flattering reality of the christian history especially in america.

        what is really maddening are those attempting to defend the indefensible.

        • Goldie Chaplan

          Only the Holy Spirit can bring people to Christ. It is the Father who draws us to Him. We just came to a place in life where we realized we were sinners and what the wages will be, but learned the good news of what God in Christ had done for us. He died in agony on a cruel cross not for His own sins for He had none but he paid the price for our (my) sins so that we could be forgiven and enjoy the presence of God forever. That’s why we love him and that’s why we try to live lives in obedience to His word. So, it means, and we can expect, that “the world” will hate us, just as it hated Christ.

          • Peter Leh

            “That’s why we love him and that’s why we try to live lives in obedience
            to His word. So, it means, and we can expect, that “the world” will
            hate us, just as it hated Christ.”

            discrimination and prohibition of equal protection is not part of that “love”. ASK the Southern Baptist pre the 1995 apology. The world “hating” us is not a given. I have never heard anyone say “that sally is so nice… i hate her!”

            the unbeliever need not the HS to recognize a jackass.

            nor is being political being religious, hence my original statement to bobby

            the rest of your statement is spot on. 🙂

      • Goldie Chaplan

        and more and more the people who cry,”intolerant” are the most intolerant of all. They seem to feel that everyone should cater to their needs and wants and that it is O.K. to run roughshod over the lives and feelings of others, Clearly, this should not be.

    • Goldie Chaplan

      now, now, Melissa. I do not believe I have heard anything about hating these people. We don’t approve of their lifestyle and I’m sure they probably don’t approve of our lifestyle, but we don’t hate them. You have made a wrong assumption. We mostly care deeply for them.

  • Bill

    do your job or face the consequences. apparently a concept too difficult for Christians bigots to figure out.

    • BJay

      Excuse YOU, Bill?!?!? “Christian Bigots, do your job or face the consequences.”. ???!!!!???
      REALLY!!!!
      So, let me make sure I understand you here. EVEN THOUGH doing so would GREATLY VIOLATE My Christian Beliefs, ALONG WITH My Commitment unto MY Lord God Almighty to use my talents AND operate my business in a manner that brings glory to HIM, you, and others like you want to STRIP AWAY MY First Amendment Right to Practice My Religious Beliefs WITHOUT INTERFERENCE,
      And produce the Penis, and Vagina, and other obscene cakes, etc for those people who obviously do not share MY God Centered Beliefs!!!
      REALLY!!!???!!!?!

      • Bill

        shut up and take your meds. if you break the law then you must be punished if you don’t like it. tough

        • BobbyHead

          They did not break the law you homosexual pervert.

          • Bill

            yeah she did.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        “STRIP AWAY MY First Amendment Right to Practice My Religious Beliefs WITHOUT INTERFERENCE”

        There is no such right in the first amendment.

        • Cathrine

          You are showing your ignorance.

          First Amendment – U.S. Constitution

          First Amendment – Religion and Expression

          Amendment Text | Annotations

          Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
          prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
          speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
          assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. – See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html#sthash.mqdjlfTa.dpuf

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I am fully aware of the 1st amendment, but thanks for providing the text. I suggest you would benefit from a more thorough understanding of it.

            Please note the word “prohibiting”. That means that the government cannot pass laws which, for instance, say: “People may not practice Islam”

            The first amendment does NOT provide a blanket provision for exercising your religious beliefs in any way, at any time, and in any place you care to – in other words “WITHOUT INTERFERENCE”. Religious expression comes with certain restrictions. “Prohibiting” and “restricting” are two different things.

          • KenS

            Apparently you missed this the first time, so here it is again. “prohibiting the free exercise thereof” free exercise, means no restrictions in case you dont understand the english language.

          • Paul Hiett

            No restrictions? You actually believe that? I don’t think you’re really considering the implications of that. It’s certainly not what it means, by the way.

          • KenS

            I was hoping I wouldn’t have to do this, but okay, English lesson for the day.

            Definitions of the word free:

            enjoying personal rights or liberty, as a person who is not in slavery:

            a land of free people.

            2.

            pertaining to or reserved for those who enjoy personal liberty:

            They were thankful to be living on free soil.

            3.

            existing under, characterized by, or possessing civil and political libertiesthat are, as a rule, constitutionally guaranteed by representativegovernment:

            the free nations of the world.

            4.

            enjoying political autonomy, as a people or country not under foreignrule; independent.

            5.

            exempt from external authority, interference, restriction, etc., as aperson or one’s will, thought, choice, action, etc.; independent;unrestricted.

            6.

            able to do something at will; at liberty:

            free to choose.

            7.

            clear of obstructions or obstacles, as a road or corridor:

            The highway is now free of fallen rock.

            Pay close and particular attention to definitions #5 and 6, I think you will see it does mean no restrictions especially when the word restriction is in the definition!
            Try to explain that one away will ya!

          • Paul Hiett

            So I can yell fire in a crowded theater?

          • Deina

            So human sacrifice is fine with you, then? And public fertility festivals?

            And churches & temples don’t need to conform to zoning & building inspection laws, since those would all be unconstitutional “restrictions”?

          • BobbyHead

            Go bro

          • Lynda Falls

            Of course yelling fire has nothing to do with religion as some people act like.

          • Lynda Falls

            Or they try to liken not being forced to take part in behaviour that violates another’s free conscience to human sacrifice wow, that is getting desperate.

            “or abridging the freedom of
            speech,”
            Remember these people served the customers for years with kindness, they just could not take part in ceremonies that violated their conscience and would harm them mentally or spiritually.
            Now they want to compare such a simple basic right to horrible things in order to try to justify their need to control other peoples thoughts and consciences.
            They need to use some straight forward reason and intelligence.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Prohibiting” is not the same as “restricting”. So, no, “prohibiting the free exercise thereof” does NOT mean “no restrictions”.

            You would benefit from a better understanding of how the 1st amendment is applied from a legal standpoint. It does not mean that citizens are allowed to express their religious beliefs at any time, in any manner, or in any place, they care to.

          • KenS

            If you take the definition i gave you on my post below for free and put it together with the word prohibit, you will see it says that they cannot prohibit the no restrictions on the exercise of religion. therefore, yes it means that we are allowed to express our religious beliefs at any time, in any manner, or any place, if not than we would be under restrictions, and therfore they would be violating our 1st amendment right.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Well that will certainly be news to the courts as well as the legal system. I guess now it is OK if a religious sect wants to have human sacrifice, or if you want to go out in front of your street at 3:00 am with a bullhorn and expressing your religious beliefs, or stand up in the middle of a movie and start expressing yourself, or Rastafarian followers smoking pot or churches in residential neighborhoods ringing their bells as any hour they want to.

            Perhaps you can serve as the legal counsel for these folks and explain how the government is prohibited from placing any restrictions on the exercise of religion via the 1st amendment. I’m sure you’ll find your way around the “prohibiting” portion of the amendment and how that really means “no restrictions at all”.

            Please let me know when that happens, as I’d love to watch you make your case in court.

          • Paul Hiett

            So a religion that calls for the sacrifice of animals…they can perform those rituals without worrying about the law, since it’s part of their religion?

          • BobbyHead

            there you are twisting scripture again hey ignorant as Christians don’t sacrifice Bulls are goats best the Old Testament for the Jews when they lived under the law Christians don’t live under the law

          • Paul Hiett

            Where did I mention Christians? Where did I mention Jews? Are you not aware of the other religions in the world?

          • Peter Leh

            “Boy are you an ignoramus!!”

            wow bobby… tell me of this “jesus” you claim to love and emulate?

            i don;t remember that line in Evangelism Explosion? 🙂

          • Peter Leh

            “yes it means that we are allowed to express our religious beliefs at any
            time, in any manner, or any place, if not than we would be under
            restrictions, and therfore they would be violating our 1st amendment
            right”

            as citizens? yes.

            as an employee? yes.

            as a business owner? ? ? ? ? ?

            any violation would be all on the owner. (have we not gone though this before?) 🙂

          • BobbyHead

            This ‘thoughts” guy ignoramous is twisting everything he can to pry open a way to destroy Christians he hates so much.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I do not hate Christians nor do I have any desire to destroy them. What is your basis for bearing false witness against me?

          • Oboehner

            “free exercise thereof”

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Did you have a point?

          • MisterPine

            Does he ever?

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you think that gives you the right to worship however you feel like?

          • BobbyHead

            Please stop trolling this site Paul and go back to your perverted gay web sites.

          • Paul Hiett

            Hey look everyone, a loving, caring, kind Christian giving helpful advice!

          • BobbyHead

            You go girl !!!

          • william

            Cathrine–you are not telling the entire story. Your interpretation is extreme here and the Supreme Court in 1880 clarified this. This does not give you the right to violate other people’s civil rights or commit murder in the name of God as ISIS is doing. Nor does it give you the right to violate other laws that are constitutional.

          • Lynda Falls

            “or abridging the freedom of
            speech,”
            Yup cannot force people to participate in behaviour that violates their conscience and harms them psychologically, spiritually or mentally. Cannot force people to write things or say things or think things that violate their consciences or beliefs.

        • eldercurt

          You obviously have not read the First Amendment!

          • Bill

            the first amendment gives you the right to worship and that’s it you cannot ignore that law by saying it conflicts with your religion

          • eldercurt

            Amazing! In a time when Muslims are asserting the right to practice Sharia law ( and winning) the only ones facing this issue are Christians. We have passed a law in Indiana protecting religious freedom and the rest of the nation says it’s discriminatory. So it looks like this: you Christians follow the law or face consequences and, by the way, if there’s a law to protect you, it’s wrong! Looks like a stacked deck!

          • Paul Hiett

            The laws actually affect everyone, not just Christians. However, since the majority of people that hate gays in this country are Christians, I can see how you might feel that way.

          • eldercurt

            I’d like to know where you get the statistical data that most people who hate gays are Christians and that Christians hate gays. I don’t hate gays, in fact I don’t hate anyone. I am not fond of syllogism and ignorance.

          • Paul Hiett

            First time posting here? Haven’t seen what your fellow Christians say about gays on here, I take it.

          • eldercurt

            First of all, a true Christian will not say anything derogatory about gays. Secondly, it’s not fair to say if some do, then all do. I’ve been on Disqus for several years now and, though I find it an adequate soapbox, I don’t know if it’s necessarily an accurate barometer for the opinions of everyone in a particular demographic.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “So it looks like this: you Christians follow the law or face consequences”

            That applies to everyone – not just Christians.

            ” if there’s a law to protect you”

            Protect them from what?

          • eldercurt

            Not from anything but protect my right to observe my faith.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            In what way is your right to observe your faith in danger? What does it need protection from?

          • Paul Hiett

            There’s a difference between “observe” and “practice”.

          • eldercurt

            No there is not!

          • Paul Hiett

            Why do you think differently?

          • eldercurt

            Observe in this case means the active practice of… how can it mean anything else?

          • Paul Hiett

            So you think you can do anything you want as long as your religion allows it?

          • MisterPine

            Why do you need the right to hate and oppress others based on your religion in order to be protected? Can’t you observe a faith without hating others?

          • Landslug

            “In a time when Muslims are asserting the right to practice Sharia law ( and winning)” There is no Sharia law being practiced in the US. There is Sharia mediation that only applies to willing participants in contract and other negotiations. Just like the Jewish rabbinical courts that have been going on for years

          • Bill

            what does that have to do with anything?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Actually, I have and am very familiar with it. What do you believe I am lacking regarding an understanding of the 1st amendment?

          • eldercurt

            I apologize if I misunderstood you. Did you say that religious freedom wasn’t in the 1st Amendment? If you didn’t, again I apologize. It does mention the free exercise thereof in the first amendment.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Did you say that religious freedom wasn’t in the 1st Amendment? ”

            No, I did not.

          • Lynda Falls

            Amen and it also says shall not be abridged.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you think the first amendment gives you the right to affect how others live?

          • eldercurt

            Not at all, nor should it give anyone the right to affect how I live.

          • Paul Hiett

            It doesn’t…at all. You are free to believe what you want. What I think you fail to understand is that your rights end where mine begin.

          • eldercurt

            Then do you believe it’s okay if I approach a gay couple and say ” turn or burn”? It would be called hate speech and I’d be labeled as homophobic. I wouldn’t do that but it is okay to approach me to request a service against my beliefs?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, actually, you can say that. You are free to preach your hate just about wherever and whenever you want. You can’t call for someone to kill them, but you can tell them all about how your loving deity will torture them and make them suffer in the afterlife.

            Now you’re starting to understand.

          • eldercurt

            And you obviously have no problem with that, right?

          • Paul Hiett

            Why would I? It’s called Freedom of Speech. You can say just about anything you want. You’ll be looked upon as a bigoted jerk, but that’s your choice.

          • Lynda Falls

            Business owners are part of the people, they did not lose their human rights.
            ” Not be abridged”

          • eldercurt

            Okay now you say I’m free to preach ‘ my’ hate. Do you know me? Do you know about my bisexual children or my unconditional love for them. Do you know anything about the openly gay men I ministered to as they died from AIDS.How I tearfully eulogised them and mourned with their families? Maybe you have me confused with another minister you engaged on Disqus or maybe I’m not the bigot!

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re the one who who put yourself into that scenario in your post. You said, “Then do you believe it’s okay if I approach a gay couple and say ” turn or burn”?

            I merely addressed the scenario you put forth which has you as the subject. If you didn’t want me to reference “you”, then you shouldn’t have referenced yourself.

            Think about it.

          • eldercurt

            I see your point… I wonder if you see mine?

          • Paul Hiett

            No, I don’t. I addressed your scenario, but see no point you were trying to make.

            As an individual, you can say almost anything you want. If you wish to tell a gay person “turn or burn”, you can…although I would certainly label that as “hateful”, but I support your right to say it.

            However, as a business, if you operate in an area which has a law that protects sexual orientation as a status, then you must abide by that law.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Then do you believe it’s okay”

            Being “okay” is a matter of opinion. With that said, you are certainly within your legal rights to do so in a public place. That is your right of free speech. Just as it is the right of others to label such speech as hate speech or you as homophobic.

            “approach me to request a service against my beliefs?”

            If, as a business owner, you offer a certain service, that service cannot legally be denied to certain people if the reason for denial is in violation of anti-discrimination laws.

          • Lynda Falls

            I think they forget that their rights also end where other’s rights begin too. They are not more important. All are equal.

          • Lynda Falls

            And your rights end where end others begin.

          • Lynda Falls

            They suddenly want to compare Christians rights to not be forced to participate in ceremonies that violate their consciences to acting like they would have to allow Isis to murder or devil worshippers to commit human sacrifice then. They want to compare it to these extreme behaviours without any reasoning just to try to force their thought control and destroy Christians.is no reasonable comparison and people have not lost the ability to use reason and sound judgement, it is just an excuse to trample Christians obviously.

            Another thing when it says the right of the people I notice it did not say unless you are a business owner.

            Or they try to liken not being forced to take part in behaviour that violates another’s free conscience to human sacrifice wow, that is getting desperate.

            “or abridging the freedom of
            speech,”
            Remember these people served the customers for years with kindness, they just could not take part in ceremonies that violated their conscience and would harm them mentally or spiritually.
            Now they want to compare such a simple basic right to horrible things in order to try to justify their need to control other peoples thoughts and consciences.
            They need to use some straight forward reason and intelligence.

          • Lynda Falls

            Christians serving them with kindness through the years but not taking part in their ceremonies is not affecting how they live anyways.
            But trying to force Christians to violate their consciences is harmful and does affect how Christians live their lives. It is all so clear and they know it to. They try to twist that and compare it to murder or human sacrifice wow. Complete lack of reason and sound judgement. Go to any lengths to try to control Christians thoughts and beliefs and stomp on them and destroy them.
            One day they will stand before God.

          • eldercurt

            Not at all but apparently you do if you believe I have to render any service even if it runs contrary to my faith.

          • Paul Hiett

            If you choose to open a business and abide by the laws that govern commerce…then yes!!!!!

          • eldercurt

            So you have no problem with the law passed in Indiana?

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re asking me if I agree with a law that gives people the ability to discriminate? No, I don’t agree with it. However, currently, the law gives people the right to do exactly that.

          • eldercurt

            So you read the law?

          • Paul Hiett

            Some of it, not all…too long. However, when Pence adamantly refuses to protect gays and lesbians from the Bill by adding a simple amendment, he refused.

            Why do you think he refused?

          • Lynda Falls

            God sees into and reads every heart and knows us and knows them.

          • Lynda Falls

            People do not suddenly get excluded from their human rights protections and the constitution when they become a business owner. They need to understand they are still part of the people it references and the constitution still applies.
            Their rights shall not be abridged.

    • Wingnut

      More “tolerance” from the left, I see.

      • Bill

        more stupidity from the right. it isn’t discrimination to be denied something that the business doesn’t provide

      • BobbyHead

        Good show!

      • Paul Hiett

        Your analogy is fairly ridiculous. Would you sue Long John Silvers for not serving sushi to a Japanese man?

        Think before you post.

    • BobbyHead

      Bill you are a pure bigot because you cannot live and let live. You are not tolerant of Christians. You hypocrite.

      • Bill

        I can live and let live so long as you follow the law.

      • Peter Leh

        Hypocrite? is that all you got?

        it is like my teenage reminding me she is 18. really?

        Bobby learn some busienss law.

    • Parque_Hundido

      Amen. None are so blind as they who refuse to see.

    • Buttercream Princess

      So, it would be fine, in your opinion, if I went a restaurant owned by Muslims and asked for them to cook me up some pork even if it’s against their beliefs? People like you say that Christians are bigots and such but would completely support the Muslim in the situation above. You are so busy calling people bigots and haters that you don’t see how you, yourself are consumed with hatred.

      • Paul Hiett

        Would you support a Japanese man suing Long John Silvers for not selling sushi?

        Think about your analogies before you post them.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Physician, heal thyself.

          • Paul Hiett

            The analogy is correct, Nick. Look at the statement of the person I was responding to. I know you like to argue for the sole purpose of arguing, but a little reading comprehension on your end would save you from these embarrassing posts of yours.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, I read your reply before reading the comment to which you were responding. Buttercream Princess’ analogy was also apples to oranges, too. How about Moslem cab drivers in Minneapolis who refuse to take fares because they bought liquor at the duty-free shop?

          • Paul Hiett

            What about them? I don’t know about the laws regarding cab drivers. Do you?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            The Moslems are denying taking fares based on their religious beliefs against alcohol. What more do you need to know?

          • Paul Hiett

            But again, what are the laws regarding a cab drivers requirement? Are they legally required to transport alcohol? Can they refuse based on that? Do you have a case study we can look at?

            Sounds to me like you’re picking a scenario you don’t really know much about.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            From what I remember of the story, Mr. Hiett, cabbies can’t refuse to take fares at the airport for religious reasons. Which is an apples-to-apples analogy to what the Christian bakers, photographers, and wedding chapel business owners are doing.
            You’re trying to weasel out of answering because you don’t want to be accused of being a hypocrite, or Islamic-phobic. Or, both.

          • Paul Hiett

            Not at all, I simply don’t know enough about the law in that case. If a cab driver is refusing to do his/her job based on a religious belief, then they’re probably in violation of a law, and I support that law. The cab driver should be fined/penalized, and ultimately, fired, if they continue to refuse to do their job.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, if they’re an employee, the business owner has the right to fire him. Period. It is not a matter for local law enforcement.
            But, if a Moslem cab owner want’s to discriminate, for whatever reason, more power to him. To deny him his right of freedom of religion, association, and contract is to be in favor of tyranny.

          • Paul Hiett

            There are laws governing a business’s right to fire an employee. Some states require reasons, some don’t. They vary state to state.

            No one has denied the cab driver his right to his freedom of religion. He can either take the job, knowing the requirements might conflict with his religion, or he can choose not to take the job. It would be the same with a bartender refusing to serve alcohol.

            You really are demonstrating a very ignorant stance on the law, especially the “freedom of association” when it comes to commerce. I think you should read up on it first, before posting any further.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            How did you not comprehend that I made the specific distinction between an employee of a cab company who is Moslem, and the Moslem OWNER of a cab company?
            When it comes to ignorance, Mr. Hiett, you are projecting, I’m afraid.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then what point are you trying to make? It seems like you’re trying to trick me into saying something…

            Try and be a little more specific. Are you asking me if I support a cab drivers decision to discriminate based on his religious choice? No I do not.

            Do I support a business owners decision to fire someone for religious choices? No, I do not.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, you infer that I’m trying to trick you, so, you can’t comprehend what I’ve actually written.
            If a Moslem takes a job as a cab driver, then refuses to pick up fares for religious reasons, the owner of the cab company has every right to fire the Moslem.
            If a Moslem cab company owner refuses to pick up fares based on his religious beliefs, he has every right to do so. It’s his business, his sweat, blood, and equity. His risk. He can contract with whomever he pleases, for any reason he pleases. He could refuse to pick up Jews and Christians. That’s his right.
            I have the right to boycott his cab company. That’s the only right the rest of us in society have. We cannot sue him because he wouldn’t pick us up. Our representatives cannot pass laws that would punish him for his actions.
            I’m consistent, while you, and the homosexual lobby, are not. I’m for freedom and you’re for tyranny. I’m for federalism, you’re for oligarchy.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Nick, a Muslim business owner may NOT discriminate based on religious reasons IF there are laws in place that prevent him from doing so. He cannot refuse service to anyone based on race, gender, religious beliefs, and in some cases, sexual orientation.

            Did you not take any business classes in college? Not even Business 101? This is basic stuff.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Oops! This comment of mine ended up in the wrong spot, in a reply to another comment. Oh well…

            You don’t have to take business courses to know what the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land, says, Mr. Hiett.
            Again, you’re for tyranny, while I’m for freedom.
            What business is it of your’s if he won’t pick up people based on their race, religious beliefs, or sexual perversi0n? Get another cab. Don’t reward him with your money. Isn’t that what liberals are demanding that companies do with Indiana? I have no problem with that.
            Because, I know it will fail. Very few businesses will stop doing business with Indiana. That why your side has to use the threat of the government gun to make us do what you want.

          • Lynda Falls

            Bakers and Florists can take the job or not too.
            And remember the served throughout the years with kindness.
            Only could not violate their conscience by taking part in ceremonies that violated their consciences.

          • Lynda Falls

            Good answer.
            Was there a court case on this? Any links?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I don’t know, Miss Falls. It was a few years ago. I remember Greta Van Susteren covering it quite a bit. But, I don’t remember if it went to court, sorry.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            p.s. Be sure to read my response to your rather lackluster reply, in the other blogpost, vis-a-vis Christmas.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        ” if I went a restaurant owned by Muslims and asked for them to cook me up some pork even if it’s against their beliefs? ”

        You have a basic misunderstanding of anti-discrimination laws. A business owner cannot be forced to offer a particular product. Rather, if a business owner chooses to offer a product, they are not allowed to restrict who is allowed to buy the product based upon anti-discrimination laws.

        • Paul Hiett

          You mean I can’t sue Starbucks for not selling me a hamburger?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Only if eating hamburgers is part of your religious belief system. Then you can, because there can be no restrictions on how one expresses their religious beliefs.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Apples and oranges, Mr. Hiett.
            Can I sue a Jewish or Moslem baker if he won’t make an Easter cake that says, “Jesus Christ Is LORD!”?
            Or, can I sue a Jewish or Moslem caterer if he won’t serve pork chops or bacon wrapped filet mignon at my wedding?
            Can a neo-nazi demand that a Jewish baker make a birthday cake for HitIer?

          • Paul Hiett

            1. Possibly, if the laws support you.
            2. If they offer those products, but refuse to sell them to you, then yes. If they don’t offer those products, you can’t sue them for what they don’t sell.
            3. I don’t know what the laws are regarding the requirements of a baker and writing messages. It’s possible though, depending on the laws in that area.

            And you are right, it’s apples and oranges. You can’t sue a business for not offering a product/service that they don’t advertise for.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Mr. Hiett,
            1. The law doesn’t support me, or these homosexuals who have gone to court.
            2. Obfuscation. What baker doesn’t make birthday cakes?
            3. So, you’re okay with a neo-nazi forcing a Jewish baker make a birthday cake for HitIer? Is that how low you’re willing to go in defense of your position?

            You can’t sue a business owner for refusing to NOT enter into a contract with those whom he does not wish. It’s called the freedom of contract. It’s a right found in the U.S. Constitution, making it the Supreme Law of Land.

          • Paul Hiett

            1. Check your laws. Your opinion is not law, and if you act based only upon your opinion, you could wind up in trouble with the law.
            2. You said nothing about baking a cake. Your example was of a caterer not providing pork/steak. Again, I point out, if a business does not offer a product in the first place, you can’t sue them for it.
            3. My opinion of a Neo-Nazi has nothing to do with the laws of commerce. If the laws require the baker to fulfill that request, then yes. I would fully support the baker in attempting to change the laws to prevent that.

            And yes, you CAN sue a business for not selling goods/services that they advertise to the public if they attempt to do so on the grounds of race, gender, religion, or in some cases, sexual orientation. “Freedom of Association” (maybe you should learn what it’s called?) does not apply to businesses offering services/goods to the public. You really should learn the law.

            This is why I state that businesses need to know the laws in their city, and what is and what is not permissible.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Mr. Hiett,
            1. I’m not worried about it.
            2. How did you miss won’t make an Easter cake that says, “Jesus Christ Is LORD!”? You berate me for reading comprehension? Pot calling kettle!

            3. What law would the Jewish baker be violating? You’ve twisted yourself into defending a neo-nazi, in your failed attempt not to contradict your defense of these homosexual fascists.

            You should learn what Article 1, Section 10 says about the State interfering with private contracts. And, yes, freedom of association is another right being violated by these judges and municipalities who are persecuting these Christian business owners. So-called “public accommodation” is a fairly new invention in the law. An invention that should be done away with.

          • Paul Hiett

            Your second example was, and I quote, “Or, can I sue a Jewish or Moslem caterer if he won’t serve pork chops or bacon wrapped filet mignon at my wedding?”

            Again, I point out (because you seem incapable of understanding this simple point), that you can’t sue a business for not offering a product or service that they don’t advertise.

            As for the Jewish baker, again, I don’t know the law about the message on a cake. The baker can’t refuse to bake the cake, but they might be able to refuse the message. I don’t support anything a New-Nazi says, but not liking something is a far cry from not following the law. A more recent example was a bakery refusing to write a message on a cake for a anti-gay group. The baker offered to bake the cake, and provide all of the materials to write the message…which apparently would be allowed under the law. Pretty good compromise, in my opinion.

            Regarding the Freedom of Association law, you can whine about it all you want, but a business cannot discriminate on race, gender, religion, and, in some cases, sexual orientation. Any business owner worth his/her salt should know the laws in their area.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Oh, I didn’t know that you were taking each of my examples in order. But, do not caterers provide food for weddings? And, isn’t pork chops and bacon wrapped filet mignon popular dishes served at weddings today? It’s not a perfect, one-to-one analogy, but, it’s close enough.
            The baker would also sell the homosexual couple a cake. Just not a wedding cake. What’s the difference? If the baker offers the service of putting a message on a cake, why can he discriminate about the message? See where this so-called “public accommodation” notion leads? Does a Christian, Jewish, or Moslem baker have to cater to someone who wants a pornographic cake for a bachelorette party?

            You knowledge of the Constitution is severely lacking, I’m afraid. You can’t force people to contract with those whom he does not wish to associate. These municipalities and judges are violating the Constitution. You’ve offered no evidence to the contrary. Only your mere opinions. Just like your bogus claim about Christmas.

          • Paul Hiett

            The popularity of an item does not mean a caterer will carry it. They might. They might not. However, if they don’t, then you can’t sue them for not having it.

            If the baker offers wedding cakes, and then refuses to make one based on the orientation of the customer, that’s a violation of the law if the law prevents such discrimination. As for writing the message, that’s a grey area for me. I confess I don’t know what the laws are regarding custom messages. If you state in your advertisements that you’ll write any custom message, well, you can be expected to uphold that claim.

            Regardless, knowing the laws regarding that business is up to the business owner.

            A business is not a person, Nick. That’s why Freedom of Association doesn’t apply in this case. Don’t take my word for it, look it up.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I conceded that the caterer analogy wasn’t perfect. Please, move on.
            What constitutes a “wedding cake” in these laws? Are they defined? No, of course they are not. These judges, etc. are foisting their worldviews on the rest of us. It is not based on well-establish law. And, you can’t force people to contract with those whom they do not wish. That is tyranny.

            In your attempt to avoid looking like an hypocrite, you’ve admitted that it’s okay for a neo-nazi to force a Jewish baker to make a birthday cake for HitIer! If the laws says so. These local laws cannot violate the constitution. Plus, SCOTUS ruled that corporations are people and have free-speech rights, sorry. Are unions “people”?

            Rufus King, of MA., who proposed the clause in Article 1, Section 10 (“No State shall […] pass any […] Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts […].”), at the Convention, relied on what was already in the Northwest Ordinance:
            “[I]n the just preservation of rights property, it is understood and declared, that no law ought ever to be made, or have force in the said territory, that shall, in any manner whatever, interfere with or affect private contracts or engagements, bona fide, and without fraud, previously formed.”

            I don’t need to looks these things up, Mr. Hiett. I’ve studied the U.S. Constitution for over 30 years.

          • Paul Hiett

            Nick, a business is not always a “corporation”. If you’ve actually studied the Constitution, you’d know that. I’m not even going to link anything for you on that on, as it’s Business 101 information.

            To address your Neo-Nazi example, I do not condone the message they want, but I support their right to say it. That’s what free speech means. And yes, if the law states that the bakery would be violating any laws governing commerce, then that’s the scenario they risked opening the business in the first place. As a business owner, you may not always like your customers, but you don’t get to choose who your customers are, or what their political/religious affiliations are. If you don’t like that, don’t open a business!

            Finally, freedom of association does not apply to the business/customer relationship. A public business cannot pick and choose it’s customers based on race, gender, religion, and in some cases, sexual orientation.

            How can you not know this?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            If a corporation has been found to have constitutional rights, how much more so for a sole proprietorship or partnership? Sorry, but you’re wrong on the law, Mr. Hiett.

            Of course you support their right to force a Jewish baker to write anti-Semitic garbage. We’ve already established that you’re all for tyranny in this country.

            “[T]hen that’s the scenario they risked opening the business in the first place.”
            Where is that well-established tradition in the English common law, Mr. Hiett? Hint: It’s not.

            “[B]ut you don’t get to choose who your customers are […].”
            Yes, I do get to choose. Again, it’s called freedom to contract and it’s embedded in the Constitution. I know you hate the Constitution, much like you hate the Declaration of Independence, but, you don’t get to ignore it.

            “Finally, freedom of association does not apply to the business/customer relationship.”

            Again, where is this well-established law?

          • Paul Hiett

            Where, exactly, are you getting the idea that “Freedom of Association” applies here? Since when did it start including businesses?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Why wouldn’t the freedom to associate apply to business dealings (i.e., the right to contract)? As a Catholic, I am free to only do business with other Catholics. Or, whatever group I wish, for whatever reason.
            The state, nor society, has absolutely no right to tell me I can’t. That is the antithesis of freedom. The Freedom of Conscience is a bedrock of the Bill of Rights. It’s why many of the colonists came here, to live and believe whatever they wanted, and, to associate with those whom they wished. If you are unaware of this history of our nation, I don’t know what else I can say, Mr. Hiett. Except, don’t get your American history from Howard Zinn.
            And, don’t get your history of Christmas from anonymous bloggers, either.

          • Paul Hiett

            Good grief, Nick…where did you get this information from?

            If you’re a Catholic business owner, you cannot refuse to service to non-Catholics. You can’t refuse service to blacks, or women, or Asians, or anyone else you just don’t “like”.

            Your interpretation of “freedom of association” is 100% incorrect when it comes to our business laws.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Mr. Hiett, under the U.S. Constitution, I can.
            Your ignorance of our Founding, and the natural law on which it was based, is why people, like you, get flim-flammed by legislatures and judges, and have been for the past century.
            Why can Catholic private schools only hire Catholics to work there?

          • Paul Hiett

            ROFL…no you can’t!!!!!

            You cannot discriminate based on race, gender, religion, and again, in some places, sexual orientation.

            I dare you to open a business and refuse service to a black person and see if you think “freedom of association” protects you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I would not do that, Mr. Hiett, as I am not an immoral business owner. At least, I do my best not to be. I’m a poor sinner, like everybody else.
            Why are against freedom? Even the freedom to be a bigot? (Do you know the true definition of the word? Hint: It’s not a synonym for racist.)
            Why do you want to be everyone’s nanny? Telling them to whom they must sell? Why do you favor despotism so much, Mr. Hiett?

          • Paul Hiett

            What you fail to realize is that such discrimination is ILLEGAL…freedom of association does not apply to businesses who offer goods/services to the public.

            This is covered in the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

            I support all free speech. I support the right of you to stand on a corner and tell homosexuals they will burn in hell. I support the right of the KKK to march up and down the streets telling everyone how much they hate blacks and Jews. I support the atheist railing about how evil religion is.

            However, freedom of speech does not grant one the right to discriminate in the world of business. The Civil Rights Act prevents them from doing so. In some places, sexual orientation has been added to the list of protected statuses.

            So A), no, freedom of association is not applicable to a business, and B) freedom of speech does not grant one the ability to practice discrimination in the workplace.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            What you fail to realize, Mr. Hiett, is that discrimination in many areas, is still legal. For good reason. It’s why there can be “male-only” clubs, or veterans groups, etc.

            I think you mean the Civil Rights Act of 1965, which was the first time in almost a century that the federal govt. tried to impose these so-called “public accommodation” standards in federal law. Their first attempt, CRA of 1875, was determined by SCOTUS to be unconstitutional. See United States v. Stanley, et al, (1883), a.k.a., The Civil Rights Cases.

            I would never tell homosexuals that they will burn in Hell. I cannot condemn anyone, as a Catholic; only God knows the human heart. I would tell them that their actions will lead them to reject God more and more, putting their immortal souls in danger. Since, if they’re in a state of mortal sin at death, they will send themselves to the fires of Hell, by rejecting Christ completely.

            no, freedom of association is not applicable to a business
            Again, I ask for proof of this long standing principle in our law tradition. Since, I just showed you that it doesn’t, Mr. Hiett.
            p.s. This is going just about as bad for you as your stubborn defense of the pagan origins of Christmas!

          • Paul Hiett

            1965? Really? Do you not even know the dates anymore?

            “The
            Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88–352, 78 Stat. 241, enacted July 2,
            1964) is a landmark piece of civil rights legislation in the United
            States[5] that outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion,
            gender, or national origin.[6] It ended unequal application of voter
            registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the
            workplace and by facilities that served the general public (known as
            “public accommodations”).”

            You’re right, this is going very well
            for me, just like I provided you with link after link proving you wrong
            about the origins of Christmas. Or, perhaps you’d like to tell everyone
            here about how hanging lights on a tree is Christian in origin?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, you’re correct, Mr. Hiett. My mistake. I was confusing the Voting Rights Act of 1965 with the Civil Rights Act of 1964. My apologies. (See how easy it is to admit when you’re wrong, Mr. Hiett? I’ve only had to do it twice in our discussions, but, I do it right away, instead of stubbornly holding on to my errors, in spite of being shown clear evidence to the contrary.)

            You may learn about the rather short history of so-called “public accommodation” laws, and the Civil Rights Cases (1883), here:
            https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/109/3/case.html

            p.s. Since, I never claimed that hanging lights on a Christmas tree was a Christian custom, that’s what we call a “straw man” argument. You may find a decent explanation of that term on wiki. Would you like to tell everyone about how linking to anonymous bloggers constitutes “proof” in your eyes?

          • Paul Hiett

            Whether you mixed up the dates or not has no bearing on my point. A business owner is not allowed to discriminate based on your claims of freedom of association.

            A little research on your part would have saved you this embarrassment.

            Finally, you said, and I quote, “This is going just about as bad for you as your stubborn defense of the pagan origins of Christmas!”

            Hanging lights on a tree is part of the tradition of Christmas, but as I pointed out, that tradition is not Christian in origin, it is pagan. So, too, is the tradition of giving gifts, and the singing of songs, and the Yule log, and all other aspects of Christmas. Therefore, the origin of Christmas as we know it today, is most certainly, “pagan”.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Whether you mixed up the dates or not has no bearing on my point.

            Why point it out, then? And, take the time to look it up, then paste it?

            Also, it wasn’t an embarrassment. It was a mistake. A simple mistake. We all make mistakes. Although, we don’t all readily admit it, when they happen, do we, Mr. Hiett?
            And, my claim is that it’s a business owner’s right to discriminate, for whatever reason, based on freedom of religion, to contract, and of association. You keep leaving out the first two. Why? You never answered my question about why Catholic private schools (or other religious schools) are allowed to only hire Catholics?

            p.s. While all of those examples may be examples of pagan practices, none of them negate the fact that the origin of Christmas was the birth of Christ, in Bethlehem of Judea, on December 25th, which predates Marcus Aurelius’ celebration of Sol Invictus, in A.D.274.
            Which was the only point of my objection to your original post about Easter and Christmas. You’ve continued to obfuscate and deflect, constantly bringing up the customs and quoting the mere opinions of others, rather than dealing with the historical evidence. Your reply, from Saturday, had three links. All of them the mere opinions of the authors, the last two of whom were anonymous. When you did quote a scholarly work, with footnotes, it made the exact opposite case that your were failing to make, and bit you badly in the backside.
            Unfortunately, you’re too intellectually dishonest to admit it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Finally giving up, Mr. Hiett? Did someone point out to you how badly you were fairing?
            Why can’t you explain why religious private schools can only hire members of their own religion?

          • Parque_Hundido

            I see you’re busy losing multiple arguments. I’m glad this little activity keeps you off the street.

            Of course, you understand that to do what you claim is legal, two conditions must be met. What are those conditions? Both prevent such schools from being much more than single room daycare facilities. Care to hazard a guess?m

            Sometimes I wonder whether you actually think you know something about the subject or if you’re just posting because your probation and restraining orders limit your activity. Then I see posts like these and realize that even someone as delusional as you appear to be cannot possibly believe he understands the matter at hand.

            At least this prevents you from molesting children.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You don’t have to take business courses to know what the Constitution, the Supreme Law of the Land, says, Mr. Hiett.
            Again, you’re for tyranny, while I’m for freedom.
            What business is it of your’s if he won’t pick up people based on their race, religious beliefs, or sexual perversi0n? Get another cab. Don’t reward him with your money. Isn’t that what liberals are demanding that companies do with Indiana? I have no problem with that.
            Because, I know it will fail. Very few businesses will stop doing business with Indiana. That why your side has to use the threat of the government gun to make us do what you want.

          • Lynda Falls

            Business owners were never excluded, they are part of the people referred to in the constitution.

          • Lynda Falls

            Yup “or abridging the freedom of speech” includes business owners as they are part of the people too, and it says “the people” Not certain people.
            I love your answers, spread them everywhere.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Thank you so much, Miss Falls, for your very kind remarks. I appreciate it very much.
            May you, and your family have a very blessed Easter. God Bless!

          • Lynda Falls

            Your welcome, I appreciate your stand for truth. May you and your family have a wonderful Easter as well. God bless

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Nick, I know your having many conversations and hopefully this will refresh you.

            https://youtu.be/xd4jidOy53g

          • Lynda Falls

            Would it be discrimination against Christians if Jews or Moslems did not make cakes stating that Jesus is Lord?

          • Landslug

            Nick_from_Detroit
            “Or, can I sue a Jewish or Moslem caterer if he won’t serve pork
            chops or bacon wrapped filet mignon at my wedding?”

            Caterers and restaurants use these fancy things called a MENU. If it’s not on the MENU, you cant sue someone for not offering it.
            Jeez, is it really that hard to figure out?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Landslug, try reading my other comments. I’ve already conceded that it’s not a perfect analogy. Try to keep up, okay?

          • Lynda Falls

            But your Jesus is Lord cakes getting made by Jews or Muslims is.

          • Lynda Falls

            Or they try to liken not being forced to take part in behaviour that violates another’s free conscience to human sacrifice wow, that is getting desperate.

            “or abridging the freedom of
            speech,”
            Remember these people served the customers for years with kindness, they just could not take part in ceremonies that violated their conscience and would harm them mentally or spiritually.
            Now they want to compare such a simple basic right to horrible things in order to try to justify their need to control other peoples thoughts and consciences.
            They need to use some straight forward reason and intelligence.

          • Lynda Falls

            You are so right nobody would expect a Jew or Moslem baker to make an Easter cake that said Jesus is Lord and then turn around and sue them and take all they had their home and business if they did not.

      • Landslug

        ” if I went a restaurant owned by Muslims and asked for them to cook me up some pork even if it’s against their beliefs? ”
        You confused not offering a product at all with refusing to serve a product to certain people that they make available to everyone else.

      • Bill

        it’s not discrimination to be denied something that the business doesn’t
        provide. why is this so difficult for you to understand? a kosher
        butcher refusing to sell pork isn’t discrimination because they aren’t
        priding it to anyone.

        • Lynda Falls

          If Muslim or Jew bakers refuse to bake a cake that says Jesus is Lord is it discrimination against Christians?

    • Goldie Chaplan

      you are rude.

      • Bill

        I have no reason to be polite to someone like you.

  • Laura

    We should not expect them to understand us… It will never happen unless they know our Lord. 1 Corinthians 1
    For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
    Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe….

    Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
    For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: hat no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

  • Jake S. Guerra

    This is a Christian New page. I am suprised there are so many haters. Did any of you haters stop to think they are unfairly targeting these companies due to the fact they are christian hmmm?? So if a Muslim cake company refuses to make the cake for them are you going to hate on them as well? I thought Not.

    Hey Bill take some prozac will ya your getting on my nerves little man.

    • Bill

      the laws apply to everyone even muslims.

    • Paul Hiett

      Actually, Jake, yes. If the Muslim baker refuses, they’ll be fined just the same.

    • Covered California

      Love it when they say “I bet you wouldn’t do this to a Muslim.” Um yeah, we would! Now what?

  • BobbyHead

    The gays with their gestapo Nazis tactics are full of hate against Christians. They go to the Christian shops just to agitate and find a reason to sue. They could easily go to thousands of other bakers that would be glad to take their money to bake a perverted gay cake.

    They don’t have any b***s to go into a no-go-Muslim-zone and request a gay cake there. They would be afraid of not getting out of there alive; the cowards.

    • Parque_Hundido

      There aren’t any “no-go Muslim zones”. Even Fox walked back that lie.

    • Paul Hiett

      I guess you’re not aware that they had no idea regarding the baker’s religious beliefs when they asked for the services that the baker advertised to the public.

      For some reason you people keep forgetting this.

  • Parque_Hundido

    They will put themselves right out of business. Bigotry doesn’t play well in court.

  • Peter Leh

    “We felt as Christians we could not in conscience put it on a cake.”

    that is all well and good. If so what does one do as a BUSINESS OWNER?

    one is not a martyr if one has options. 🙂

  • America First

    It is the Churches in America that apparently are whimping out. Why is that? Where is their Leadership through God? UH? OH I think I get it…they do not want to lose your tax exempt status. COWARDS!

  • LIFE – A Gift Divine

    The issue here is what was wanted on the cakes. It’s as though the people buying the cakes knew this business was Christian and was not supporters of a Gay agenda, and asked on purpose to see what would happen. If that is the case, who is in the wrong. It puts these people in a difficult situation. If their beliefs are that promoting Gays is against their beliefs and their beliefs stem from having the business because of their faith, I see no reason why they can’t simply decline to make the cake. I’m sure there are other business’s that would make those cakes. A business owner of cakes that put information on them in my opinion could simply state as a rule of thumb that there are limits to what they put on cakes: Example might be not putting on a cake a symbol of violence or message of violence. It’s not that they would not make a cake for this guy. It’s the message he wants to send out. They don’t agree with the message, just like they would not agree with a message of violence, and no doubt would not make that cake either.

  • william

    Is this Irish company related to the same name company in Colorado? Kay Christians in the United States are not having their rights taken away—the problem is that many of these so-called Christians do not know what their religious rights are–for instance just because you believe that you must sacrifice a virgin to the Sun so it rises the next day dose not give you the right to comment murder in the name of God or religion. Likewise, you do not have the right to deny anyone their civil rights which the Supreme Court stated back in the 1880s. You have the right to worship freely so long as it does not violate the rights of others or local laws. The Religious Freedom is not absolute–it were Waco and Karesh would have never taken place nor Jim Jones.
    In the United States if you are open for business you must serve whoever requests your services. It is stupid business practice not to as you are in business to make money –not to discriminate.
    During the 1960s, the Interstate Commerce laws came into effect that protected people from being denied services–back then it was blacks who were being denied.
    Lets put the shoe on your foot–suppose you are a rampant Roman Catholic and I am a Jew. I run a clinic to which you come to after a life threatening accident. I refuse to treat you because we do not treat Christians.—–how does that grab you that someone would let you die simply because of what you are advocating.
    It is stupid people like you who do not think of the final consequences of what you advocate. Now if I were a Jew and you came to me —I would treat you as I would anyone else—but I suppose you would not because you are so wrapped up in intolerance that you would allow people to die.

  • Goldie Chaplan

    I wonder how they (the customers who wanted the statement on their cake) feel now. Do they have any feelings for this family who will probably lose their business since they cannot comply with their wishes. I’m sorry but it seems a bit mean spirited to me. If these people want to be thought well of in their community, I should think they are going to have to change their behavior, if not their life style,and find other means for taking care of their cakes. This is truly sad. I have to say, I know a few people who are gay and I do not believe they would ever cause this kind of heartache.

  • Elat

    So glad to read this. STAND STRONG my fellow Christians.