United Methodists Propose to Change ‘Church Law’ to Allow Homosexual Behavior

UnitedMethodistMarriageSignNASHVILLE, Tenn. — A panel within the leadership of the United Methodist Church has voted to submit a proposal to change the denomination’s law book to remove prohibitions against homosexual behavior and to allow clergy to officiate same-sex ceremonies.

The Connectional Table voted 26-10 on Monday to present the amended language during the 2016 General Conference, which would then place the matter up for another vote for official approval.

The adjustments would allow those who are open and practicing homosexuals to serve as clergy, and would remove any mention of homosexual behavior as being a violation of biblical laws or being “incompatible with Christian teachings.” Language would also be removed that prohibited clergy from officiating over same-sex ceremonies.

According to the United Methodist Reporter, the proposal serves as a “third way” and compromise over the differing opinions surrounding homosexual behavior, and would put an end to any church trials over the matter.

As previously reported, Pennsylvania minister Frank Schaeffer was defrocked in 2013 after he officiated a ceremony between his son and his son’s partner, and refused to agree not to “wed” homosexuals again since he has other children who identify as homosexual.

He was later reinstated as a council ruled that he should not have been stripped of his credentials solely because he refused to repent, and noted that the written penalty did not warn Schaefer that he would be defrocked for doing so.

“Our hope is that [the Table’s proposal] will provide an alternative for the General Conference to consider that helps strengthen the unity of the church and allows us to move forward together as a denomination so that we can focus on our mission,” said Table Chair Bishop Bruce Ough.

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But some have expressed concern over the new proposal, stating that it weakens the standards of righteousness that pastors are meant to exemplify and uphold.

“If we’re going to condone the practice of homosexuality, what’s stopping us from allowing pastors to commit adultery without rebuke? Why not let drunken revilers lead kids church? Why not give greedy thieves and extortioners the responsibility for church finances?” asked Jennifer Leclaire of Charisma Magazine.

“The point is, practicing homosexuality is not the only sin the Bible calls out in this verse, as so many gay rights activists like to stress. So why does the sinful practice of homosexuality, then, get special protection?” she said.

Leclaire opined that if even just one sin is accepted among congregations, there’s no telling where it will lead.

“If we’re going to let our pastors engage in homosexuality at will, condone it and have the audacity to declare that it doesn’t contradict God’s will, what’s preventing us from throwing the Ten Commandments out of the window?” she asked. “Always keep in mind, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.”

“Pastors are supposed to ‘teach God’s people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean’ (Ezek. 44:23). Instead, far too many are calling evil good and good evil and exchanging darkness for light and light for darkness (Is. 5:20),” Leclaire noted. “We can’t just stand by and point fingers of disdain and watch. Join me in crying out that a wave of repentance will sweep the church—and the nation.”


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  • Mr. Avatar

    The organization is now seeking a declaration from the court that the district’s practices violate the Establishment Clause of the United States Constitution, which states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

    • Paul Hiett

      Meaning what? Public schools and government offices are not to be used as platforms for religion. It’s not rocket science, folks.

    • MountainDewFan4

      As soon as you get to be a member of the SCOTUS, you can interpret the Establishment Clause how you wish. However, currently they interpret it as “The Government shall not favor one religion over another religion or non-religion”.

  • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

    A former student says that his school did not pray to the god of gay, and he’s finally figured out that THIS, and nothing else, is the cause of all his troubles. He’s buddied up with some bullies, and now he wants to fight. What a great guy.

    • Paul Hiett

      So which religions should we allow to pray in school? Which would you want your child being forced to pray to?

      • smbelow

        “…forced…”
        For the life of me, I can’t find ANY case where students were FORCED to pray–maybe Islam. Subjected to? Possibly. But if a person has problems with someone praying next to them, it says they are either weak skinned or feeling the convictions of something they claim not to believe. Kind of gets into the whole “without excuse” thing in the Bible.

        “which religion”
        Seeing that the founders of the country deemed Christianity as the predominately lead in morality; I would go with Christianity. I mean what has this, so called, free thinking generation done to the school system after systematically removing the Bible. If I’m not mistaken, since around the 60s, the public school system is not considered too functional in literacy and behavior.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          Which version of Christianity. There are quite a few. Should we teach that drinking alcohol and gambling is a sin in line with Southern Baptists? Should we teach that it is a sin to drink caffeinated beverages in line with Mormons? Should we teach that using electricity is wrong in line with the Amish?

          “If I’m not mistaken, since around the 60s, the public school system is not considered too functional in literacy and behavior.”

          Your are attempting to create a relationship of causality when all you have is a relationship of concurrence, unless you have proof to the contrary. Do you?

          • smbelow

            “Which version of Christianity”

            And right THERE is the WHOLE idea of “FREEDOM OF RELIGION.” Not Satanism, Islam, Buddhism, etc…but the idea that the moral principles would be adopted into the new republic from a Christian perspective.

            “Your are attempting to create a relationship of causality…”

            Not attempting. Reasonable conclusion, considering that from the 60s on, the laws started to project a more naturalistic ideology and that any reference to Biblical inference was being removed. I lived through all that. I remember some of the teachers being asked to stop bringing Christian material to school because it might offend. That’s the whole naturalist perspective: remove everything that might be offensive from a naturalistic perspective.

            So my relational causality is the BEST answer to the problems with adolescent behavior we see these days. Unless, you have proof to the contrary.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            You still didn’t answer: Which version of Christianity?

            No, freedom of religion (which, by the way, appears no where in the constitution) does not mean freedom of the Christian religion. It means that the government may not endorse or promote a particular religion and that the government may not prohibit the exercise of religious beliefs – Christian or otherwise.

            “Reasonable conclusion”

            Reasonable based upon what? What would removing religious texts have to do with literacy? Has any study been done which links the removal of religious instruction in public schools to behavior? Are you saying that without the schools teaching religion that there is no way to teach children proper behavior? Are parents and churches so inept that they require public schools to teach children about Christianity?

            “So my relational causality is the BEST answer to the problems with adolescent behavior we see these days.”

            You have not shown any relationship of causality other than that’s what you want to believe. Show me empirical data which proves a relationship of causality then you may have a point. Until then, you have no proof. The only proof you have is of a relationship of concurrence.

          • smbelow

            “You still didn’t answer:…”

            Sure I did. Are you able to reason? I mean…that seems to be the mantra of non-believers these days. My answer can be reasoned by understanding my response. Why don’t you show me you’re not just some intellectually absent drone and reason through what I wrote.

            “No, freedom of religion…”

            I don’t know how to even respond to this. “Freedom of religion” is not in the constitution? Oh! You mean the EXACT wording as you put it.
            Again, you have to be able to reason to understand certain historical events, which I don’t think you have. If you want, I can test you on this; to see how dishonest you actually are when it comes to rationality.

            “Reasonable based upon what? What would removing…”

            Not what I said. Not what I’m indicating. Not part of the dialog. etc…You are irrationally arguing points and adding to the dialog. Stop that!

            “Has any study been done…”

            And who would be the unbiased group to perform such a task. It’s called rationalizing cause and effect. You can deny this as much as you want, but since the systematic removal of Christian principles of moral behavior; we’ve only witnessed the increase in everything amoral.

            “empirical data…”

            You mean the empirical data that shows the rise in pregnancies, drugs, illiteracy, violence against teachers and students, property destruction…etc…etc…etc…

            Do you have a more rational cause?

          • Paul Hiett

            Freedom of religion does not mean Freedom only for Christians.

          • smbelow

            You’re partially correct. However, Christian principles are the only ones that actually permit all the freedoms we unabashedly recognize as the cornerstone of the United States.

          • Paul Hiett

            That is absolutely incorrect. Christianity is NOT the only permissible belief system in the world. ALL of them have merit, and in the US, a public school is not a pulpit for Christianity to preach from.

            If you want Christianity in your child’s school, enroll them in a Christian school!!!!!

          • smbelow

            “ALL of them have merit…”
            Depends what you mean by merit. Yeah…you can find tidbits of reasonable doctrines in all religions. I’m not going to argue with you there. However! It’s all about the fruits of their labors and the root of their belief.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “However, Christian principles are the only ones that actually permit all the freedoms we unabashedly recognize as the cornerstone of the United States.”

            Given that the constitution provides protections that directly violate 7 out of the 10 commandments, I’d be most curious to know how it is that “Christian principles” permit our freedoms.

          • smbelow

            First, I’m interested in the seven. I think I’ve heard that before, but never chased it down. Lots to learn these days. 🙂

            Second: Did I say that Christianity was the framework of the country. No! It’s taken to be the foundation of the country. The laws, originally, were constructed based on this principle.

          • DNelson

            1st and 2nd Commandments – directly conflicts with protections regarding religious belief.

            3rd Commandment – directly conflicts with freedom of speech.

            4th Commandment – directly conflicts with general liberty and freedom.

            5th Commandment – directly conflicts with general liberty and freedom.

            7th Commandment – directly conflicts with freedom of association.

            10 Commandment – directly conflicts with general liberty and freedom.

            “Did I say that Christianity was the framework of the country.”

            Did I say you said that? No!

            “t’s taken to be the foundation of the country”

            The foundation of the country is the Constitution. It is secular and contains no mention of Christianity.

            “The laws, originally, were constructed based on this principle.”

            Obviously not, as the above clearly shows.

          • smbelow

            First, thanks for the response.
            I would like to get into how your response is filled with holes in a logical and theological sense, however, I’m being summoned and need to do other things.

            I might be able to come back to this later, but I don’t know. Sorry.

          • smbelow

            “Christian principles” permit our freedoms.”

            Umm…because the Christian religion doesn’t postulate a rule of law like other religions (Islam). It establishes moral boundaries for which law is derived from.

            So, if you are atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, etc…Christianity doesn’t say you can’t come here. However, it does provide an object moral platform for freedom and liberty.

          • DNelson

            “It establishes moral boundaries for which law is derived from.”

            And the difference would be?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            Why don’t you just tell me which sect of Christianity is going to be the one taught in schools because, no, you did not answer that question. I asked you which sect of Christianity and your response was:

            “And right THERE is the WHOLE idea of “FREEDOM OF RELIGION.” Not Satanism, Islam, Buddhism, etc…but the idea that the moral principles would be adopted into the new republic from a Christian perspective.”

            As is clearly evident, you did answer my question, as you did not cite which sect of Christianity would be taught. Is lying part of how you express your Christian faith?

            “You mean the EXACT wording as you put it.”

            No, I mean the exact wording as YOU put it.

            “If you want, I can test you on this; to see how dishonest you actually are when it comes to rationality.”

            Please do.

            “Not what I said.”

            Here’s what you said: “If I’m not mistaken, since around the 60s, the public school system is not considered too functional in literacy….”

            You are saying you didn’t say things that you did. “Stop that!”

            “And who would be the unbiased group to perform such a task.”

            I’m glad we agree that no such research has been performed and therefore there is no empirical data to back up your claim. It is simply nothing more than your opinion. Any number of different organizations or universities could do the research.

            “It’s called rationalizing cause and effect.”

            No, it’s called stating something as fact that you have no basis for besides your opinion.

            “You can deny this as much as you want, but since the systematic removal of Christian principles of moral behavior; we’ve only witnessed the increase in everything amoral.”

            I in no way deny that. It would also be foolish to deny that such declines were not happening prior to that. Ever since the founding of the country each generation has complained about the moral declines in the generation that follows. If biblical instruction is somehow related to behavior, how to you explain the above average rates of child birth to unwed mothers, drug use, and divorce in the “Bible belt” states?

            I might as well say: In the states which have the highest percentage of people who say they are Evangelical Christians, there are also high rates of child birth to unwed mothers, drug addiction, and divorce. Therefore, Evangelical Christianity causes drug addiction, divorce, and births to unwed mothers.”

            Absurd, of course. Why? Because I am attempting to turn a relationship of concurrence into a relationship of causality, just as you are attempting to do.

            “You mean the empirical data that shows the rise in pregnancies, drugs, illiteracy, violence against teachers and students, property destruction…etc…etc…etc…”

            But that’s not what the empirical data shows. The empirical data shows that teen pregnancy rates have dropped substantially over the past 20 years. Illiteracy in the US has never been lower. Drug use among teens is down considerable since 1996, when it peaked. I’m not aware of any trends in violence against teachers or property damage by children. I also have no idea what “etc., etc., etc.” is composed of.

            “Do you have a more rational cause?”

            I think that a lack of parental involvement, households where both parents work full time outside the home, and divorce, have an impact on children. With that said, trends, as noted above, are positive. The current generation of children are more accepting of others and less judgmental than any in history. Bullying in schools has decreased. A recent study from the Women’s Philanthropy Institute at the Indiana University Lilly Family School of Philanthropy found that nearly 9 out of 10 children ages 8 to 19 give to charity and more than half volunteer. A record.

            Using your logic, all of those are a result of religion no longer being taught in schools. Again, a ridiculous conclusion as I am attempting to create a relationship of causality where none has been proven.

          • smbelow

            I stopped reading half way through. I guess I struck a nerve. Oh…well…I guess you haven’t mastered that emotional side of things, yet; seeing that you went all psycho on me.

            I’m not going to read through a chapter of out of control ramblings to try and make points you clearly don’t have the intellect or self control to deal with.

            But I will answer your first question–seeing you have the reasoning ability of a monkey with his hand caught in a hole.

            “I asked you which sect of Christianity…”

            My answer is “NONE.” That’s right. None! Why?! because Christianity is not about sects. These are clearly man’s attempt to interpret portions of Biblical text. This was the whole reason for Thomas Jefferson’s letter to the Danberry Baptists. The whole idea was that no defining denomination would be held in recognition over the other. Again, a problem that occurred in the Catholic church in Europe (dark ages).

            Now, I rather not get into a history lesson with you, but suffice to say, no one denomination should be recognized.

          • DNelson

            “seeing that you went all psycho on me.”

            What did you find “all psycho” about my post?

            “My answer is “NONE.””

            I’m glad we agree.

          • Deina

            If you want your kids to go to a religious school, by all means enroll them in one!

            Most metropolitan areas have a wide range of private religious schools that you can choose from, some of which have boarding facilities in case you live too far away to send your child every day.

            Public schools are there to provide education to children of all religious backgrounds – Jewish, Waashat, Christian, Muslim, Waskliki, Buddhist, Wiccan, atheist, or anything else you can name. With such a wide variety of faiths represented, no prayers of any kind are appropriate to everyone.

            Of course, those who claim to be Christian don’t care how insensitive prayers spoken to a god that some of the pupils aren’t raised to believe in are – the intent is to recruit as many as possible anyway.

          • smbelow

            “Public schools are there to provide education to children of allreligious backgrounds …”
            I agree.

            But for the sake of critical thinking; how do we determine the foundation and moral principals to follow? If you say society norms, let me point you to the current situation in the Middle East. If you claim atheism, let me point you to…well…the better part of the 20th century.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Moral principles which are taught in schools should be those that society feels are appropriate. ( I’m sure the MIddle East has it’s own share of problems. )

          • smbelow

            “I’m sure the MIddle East …”

            Maybe all those people losing their homes, land, and…oh yeah…their heads.

            “…society feels are appropriate…

            ” I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscience imperious , relentless and cruel” Adolf Hitler.

            Do you think there might be a problem with man determining what is moral and acceptable?

          • MountainDewFan4

            So we should instead teach our kids the morality in the Bible?
            Murder all the women, men and children in an area just for the hell of it.

            Kill all male children because one of them might be bad.

            Raping women is OK, as long as you force them to marry you afterwards.

            Stone to death people who talk back to their parents or work on Sundays.

            Oh, yeah and if you don’t like how some people in this world are acting, then just KILL ALL OF THEM (except for like 5 or 6).

            THESE ARE AN IDEAL SET OF MORALS !!!!!

          • smbelow

            “So we should instead teach our kids the morality in the Bible?Murder all the women, men and children in an area just for the hell of it…”

            Please stop posting. Your ignorance of the Bible just shows you’re either trolling or completely and utterly without the ability to be rational about a topic.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

          • smbelow

            Who was speaking and please give a complete description of His essence.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.

          • smbelow

            So a God who exists outside of our plain of time, space, and matter. A God that even created “time.” Do you believe a God that is not bound by “time” is unable to determine the matter of judgment on a people in it’s completeness? Or make a mistake on a matter of life and death. Think long and hard on this one.

            You know, I’m going to spake a little more on something. You know I always hear about people saying things about how God can put to death woman and children. Now, again, I point to my time, space thing, but even more I look at what I see in the world.

            It is becoming more and more evident that the further society goes, the younger and more obscure the gender in the types of atrocities that are committed.

            Five year old children murdering and being taught to murder, women leading death squads and raising amoral children.

            Is it that hard to think the ancient civilizations were 100% devoid of humanity?

          • Paul Hiett

            I think you’d be surprised at what even “Christian” civilizations were doing to people.

          • MountainDewFan4

            How do you know that your god existed outside of time, space and matter?

            Also if this is true, then how can he interact with this world? How can he save that guy who was in a car crash, if he exists outside of matter?
            How can he hear prayers if he exists outside of space?
            How can he create time if he exists outside of time?

            Of course your answer to all of these are simply going to be … “Well he just does, and I know he does, I have no proof whatsoever, but I know I’m right.”

          • Paul Hiett

            Society does determine what is moral and what is not though.

          • smbelow

            Hmm…so you apparently have no problem with the society of Islam and what their currently doing? Or north Korea, China, Pakistan, etc..Are there any others?

            You are holding on to a very dangerous supposition.

          • Paul Hiett

            You put words in my mouth I did not say.

            I said that society dictates what is considered moral and ethical. What is considered such varies from place to place. It is more pronounced from country to country, but even in the US, from state to state we see it.

            I don’t agree, as you do, that what NK or China does is considered moral or ethical. But, they do. That’s my point.

          • smbelow

            You’re right! I put words in your mouth, but under your position of moral relativism, logically, there is no reason for a portion of society to be sacrificed for the greater good, so to speak.

          • Paul Hiett

            Why would a portion of society have to be sacrificed for anything?

            I am merely pointing out that we don’t get our morals from religion…although on the surface it may appear that way.

            Our founding fathers knew this, but also understood the importance of religion, which is why the strove so hard to separate church and state in the US so that everyone and anyone living here would be A) free to believe what they want to believe and B) be free from the beliefs of others practicing A.

          • smbelow

            “Why would a portion of society have to be sacrificed…”

            I don’t know. Try asking all the leaders past and current who are or have killed millions of people just because it was better for society.

            “which is why the strove so hard to separate church and state…”

            Well…they didn’t do a good job at it. I mean, just look at all the Biblical representations in our own capital. Or how practically every city–haven’t been to them all–has a Christian church. Every President until Obama swore an oath by putting their hand on…umm…what? A Bible. Plenty more to put here, but I’m sure you understand where I can go with this.

          • Paul Hiett

            Tyrannical dictators are tyrannical dictators, and will use any means necessary to stay in power. I point to Hitler, a Christian…Mussolini, an atheist…Mugabe, a Catholic…and the list goes on.

            Yes, Christianity is the predominant religion in America, but that means nothing. The majority do not get to dictate how the minority live.

          • smbelow

            Only a idiot would use the argument that Hitler was Christian. I’m sure next you’re going to point out that Scottish fallacy, right?

            “Yes, Christianity is the predominant religion in…”

            I disagree. If Christianity were the predominant religion, than things wouldn’t be so bad. What we do have is a population that claims a Christian believe or a belief in the God of the Bible without sacrificing their position in this world. God doesn’t say to put down your cross and follow him only on Sunday’s and some holidays.

          • Paul Hiett

            History is history, regardless of whether or not you like it. Yes, Hitler considered himself a Christian. I don’t care about your interpretation of what a Christian is, we’re simply discussing the religions of various tyrannical dictators. Yes, Hitler was a Christian.

            Do you really think Christianity is not the predominant religion in the US?

            Drive around any town in the US and tell me how many Christian churches there are vs all of the facilities of all other religions combined. Make no mistake, the US is predominantly Christian.

          • smbelow

            “Hitler was a Christian.”

            Just like Obama! I guess if I say that I possess a certain quality, it must be true. Even though I have no outwardly proof.

            “Do you really think Christianity…”

            I think many people attribute themselves to Christianity, however, on the day of judgment there will be many who fall terribly short.

            “I don’t care about your interpretation of what a Christian..”

            Than by what method do you use to determine if something is true and accurate? It’s all relative?

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re missing the point. Whether Hitler himself meets the criteria to be a Christian (depending on which denomination you use, of course) is not relevant. He, himself, identified as being a Christian.

            I know you don’t like it, but again, facts are facts and nothing more. They do not offer opinions, they simply provide you with information.

          • Deina

            Ah! The well-worn & totally debunked “there is no morality without the bible” BS!

            If you want your kids to learn in a religious setting, send them to a religious school.

            Public schools are not religious institutions and there is no place for compulsory prayer or religious instruction in them.

            Just to be clear “compulsory” means any place where they haven’t specifically “opted-in“ to hear it!

            For example, when I was in HS, lo those many years ago, we had a Christian club at school, as an official club – it met on the same schedule as other scholastic clubs – where we would sing & pray & such once or twice a month. Mrs. Daniels was the advisor, may she rest in peace! And that was perfectly fine, and it would be perfectly fine today because no one went unless they wanted to! You had to opt-in to be part of it!

            It wasn’t broadcast over the tannoy to the whole school, it wasn’t part of school assemblies, and it wasn’t part of everyone’s school routine. It was simply available to those who wished to partake of it.

        • Paul Hiett

          So define Christianity, and exactly the correct interpretation of the Bible that is the only correct interpretation that can be allowed.

          • smbelow

            Christ like! Hows that?

            “and exactly the correct interpretation of the Bible”

            Can you be more specific? You do know that the Bible was written by 40 authors spanning thousands of years and in different parts of the world? Unless you can be more specific, I’m afraid the answer would take more than a couple of minutes to answer.

            Try to narrow it down.

          • Paul Hiett

            Exactly my point, SM…so which version of which religion should be allowed to pray in our public schools?

        • MountainDewFan4

          That’s because in the 1950s the phrase “One Nation Under God” was added to the pledge. Ever since then, then the school system has gone down hill !

          • smbelow

            “Ever since then…”
            Are you saying that Christianity was the downfall of the public school system? Are you actually going to argue such a ridiculous notion?

          • MountainDewFan4

            No. I was countering the post above which stated that removing god from the schools is what caused the school system to go downhill. He has absolutely no proof of that claim.
            Similarly, one could state that it was the addition of the words “Under God” that caused the school system degradation, there is just as much proof for both.

            Realistically it actually had nothing to due with either of these items.

          • smbelow

            Then what was the reason? Remember cause and effect along with occam’s razor.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Well, I don’t think that anyone has the exact answer to that. Of course anyone can see that society has changed a great deal over the last 70 years.
            There are more guns, drugs and poverty in this country which all tend to lead to the degradation of society. But I don’t pretend to know the answer.

            However, I am fairly certain that it does NOT have to do with taking prayer out of school.

          • smbelow

            Well…taking Christian moral principles out of the school has left a void. What replaced it. A vacuum will draw something in.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Christian moral principles are a fine thing to teach YOUR OWN children in YOU OWN house or church. Let other people teach their own children their own beliefs.

    • MountainDewFan4

      He is NOT saying that this is the cause of his problems. He is not even saying the he has any problems. All he is saying is that it is WRONG and unconstitutional for a government run PUBLIC school to be starting meetings with CHRISTIAN PRAYERS. and he is CORRECT! How would they feel if someone prayed to Satan, or Cthulhu or Allah before their meetings? I’m sure they would find this be inappropriate too. and they would be CORRECT.
      There SHOULD BE NO Prayers in a PUBLIC SCHOOL.

  • Sam Thompson

    hate to admit that i agree in this case.

    • Lark62

      Thanks.

      I actually think government entanglement with religion is 1) really important and 2) something most of us should be able to agree on. Sometimes we are too busy talking past each other. But I think we all have a responsibility to defend each other’s rights.

      There are some who like to say that atheists want to outlaw religion, make religion in public illegal or something equally silly. This isn’t true.

      I may be a godless heathen, but my view is much more limited = nobody gets to use government authority or public (government) resources to push, advance, or promote any one religious viewpoint, including atheism.

      The school coach can’t lead players in prayers to Jesus nor can he ask them to affirm that there is no god. No matter what he believes on his own time, when he is acting with government authority he doesn’t pick sides. This then protects the 1st amendment right of every student under his authority. No one has to fake agreement with the coach’s religious views, no matter what those views may be.

      But religion “in public” is perfectly okay on your own time and dime. Great big crosses on church property are fine. A corporate owned shopping mall welcoming nativity scenes and carolers – great. Religious t-shirts and 20 religious bumper stickers on your car for all to see – no problem.

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    Wow. Just amazing. How long will it take for public school administrators to figure out that they are not allowed to preference or promote religious beliefs as a part of school events? This is not new. I guess some people are just slow.

    • Richard

      You’ll be happy to be separated from all things God for eternity. Keep in mind that God embodies all things good. Satan embodies all things evil. Just as long as you know where your destiny is headed.

    • smbelow

      “This is not new. ”
      Sure it is. This is called postmodernism. You fail to understand that up until recently, there has never been a problem with having Christianity in the school. The separation clause [sic] is revisionist concept that is actually redefining original intent in a relatively new and aggressive manner.

      • Lark62

        It was a problem in the 1830s. Protestants wouldn’t stop pushing protestant prayers and reading from the protestant bible in public schools. Catholics tried to fight it in the courts, but majority protestant judges sided with protestants. In the end catholics moved their kids out of “public” schools.

        • smbelow

          That’s a whole different topic (Who are the Catholics/Protestants).

          “wouldn’t stop pushing…”
          Inflammatory and ignorant representation of not only history, but your understanding of what the significance of the division between Catholicism and Protestantism is. Are you even aware of WHY the founders wrote the “freedom to exercise” in the constitution?

          I would enjoy a refresher as to why Catholicism is indeed a Biblically adherent religion and how it wasn’t the main reason to include the particular wording in the Constitution. Also! Please educate me on the original manuscripts, of the Catholic Bible, that are not used in the protestant’s Bible. And please!!! Don’t show your ignorance by talking about the apocrypha.

          In addition: if you’re going to spout off “any religion” you’re going to have to explain how our founders–under the fog of war–were actively in agreement that ANY religion meant Satanism and Islam, which are completely apposed to Christianity. Is that even reasonable, considering the founders were more concerned about the fledgling country.

          • Lark62

            None of that is the point..

            I am referring to specific historic events when the protestant majority ignored the rights of the minority. The catholics had/have a bible that differs in some respects from the bible used by protestants. Catholics in the minority asked that their children not learrn prorestant theology at school. Their requests were flatly denied.

            Google philadelphia nativist riots. (I got the decade wrong. It was the 1840s.)

            The men who drafted and adopted the Constitution of the United States very specifically omitted any mention of religion in that document. And yes while they considered both Judaism and Islam to be religions worthy of protection, in fact, all religious viewpoints are protected.

            It makes no difference whether you or I agree with any tenet or any belief. Religious belief is protected from government interference. Public school teachers cannot instruct or encouage school children to pray to the teacher’s preferred spiritual being.

          • smbelow

            “None of that is the point…..”

            Umm…yes it does. And to ignore it is to close your eyes to original intent, which is clearly part of the topic. You can’t ignore a premise because you don’t like it.

            “And yes while they considered both Judaism and Islam…”

            Judaism? Yes. Islam? No!

            I’m not talking about permitting the practice within the country. But not even the doctrines of Judaism was recognized outside of Christianity. And Islam!? You have to be kidding. The only part Islam had in the founding negative.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you point me where, in the Constitution, it says that only Christianity is recognized?

          • smbelow

            Your confusing my point, and maybe that’s my fault. I’m typing a lot over here.

            Christianity is the bedrock of all that is the United States. The Constitution, Declaration of Independence, even the nature of the court system (Judges) were framed from this bedrock. That’s my point. You build from something. That something was Christianity.

            Just the fact we are arguing about this topic is proof. We are heading into a time where the country is being reshaped and the reflex from the Christian population is the indicator.

          • Paul Hiett

            Are you aware that our founding fathers (many, not all), were Deists, and not “Christians”?

            They recognized that not everyone worshiped in the same religions. Most certainly, our Constitution was written to protect everyone, not just Christians.

          • smbelow

            “Are you aware that our founding fathers …”
            Yeah…I’m aware of the back and fourth argument about the quantity. However, if you use the unbelievers go to “Thomas Jefferson” we can still see that even he recognized the country’s foundation as being Christian. Would you like me to start listing all the empirical relevance to this claim?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Like the Treaty of Tripoli which states, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”

          • smbelow

            “Like the Treaty of Tripoli which states, …”
            I was waiting for some historically ignorant person to bring this one up.

            If you’re going to bring up the “Treaty of Tripoli” than explain to us all WHY this treaty was even needed; seeing that the country was new and had better things to do than to involve itself with an entity thousands of miles away.

          • Paul Hiett

            Why was the treaty needed? Come on SM…you can do better than that.

            The Barbary Treaties were necessary to end the war with the Barbary pirates. The line regarding the fact that the US is not a Christian nation was put in to alleviate any fears that Christianity would be used to rule, and that the pact was between sovereign states and not between two religious powers.

          • MountainDewFan4

            It doesn’t matter why it was needed. It matters what it SAYS. Obviously, John Adams realized that this was not a Christian Nation. Since he was one of the Founding Fathers … one would assume that this was a belief held by more than just Mr. Adams!

          • smbelow

            “It doesn’t matter why it was needed…”
            Obviously, you must have hit your head on a rock or something. It sure does matter. It’s called trying to resolve a situation based on the ideology of a certain barbaric element. I just pointed this out to someone else, but let me ask you, too.

            Until Obama, how has every President, that I’m aware of, taken the oath of office? Hint…has to do with putting their hand on something.

          • MountainDewFan4

            So you are saying that John Adams lied to these people? That he really did think that this was a Christian Nation? I don’t see your point.

            Just because presidents swear on a Bible, DOES NOT MAKE THIS A CHRISTIAN NATION! What kind of logic is that?

            Many presidents had slaves, does that make this a slave loving nation?

          • smbelow

            “So you are saying that John Adams lied…”

            Well, I’m trying to leave the quotes out of it; but if you want, I can give a contradictory quote that would answer your question.

            “Just because presidents…”

            Not talking about what is, but what it was founded on.

            “Many presidents had slaves…”

            You do know that slavery didn’t originate in the United States?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Why are you leaving quotes out of it. Because guessing what the Founding Fathers thought is better?

            Oh it didn’t originate in the United States … so therefore it’s OK…. huh?

          • smbelow

            “Why are you leaving quotes out of it…”

            No, because to go down the quote farm solves nothing but arguing with someone that is a relativist and doesn’t use historical relevance in their arguments.

            “Oh it didn’t originate in the United States…”

            No!

          • Paul Hiett

            I’d like to see you prove that Jefferson was a Christian, when he did not believe that Jesus was the son of a deity.

          • smbelow

            “I’d like to see you prove that Jefferson was a Christian…”
            Didn’t say that! Recognized!

            Read your history about Jefferson’s time in office. Than come back to me.

          • Paul Hiett

            “From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.”

            — Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:545

            I do believe this refutes your point regarding Jefferson and Christianity.

          • smbelow

            “I do believe this refutes your point regarding Jefferson and Christianity…”
            Are you purposely being ignorant?

            What was Thomas Jefferson known to have held inside the Capital?

            Again, NOT saying he was Christian. Read things for carefully.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

          • smbelow

            Listen dummy! I’ve stayed away from the quotes because I’m trying to keep this relatively generic. If you continue your un-thought out quotes, I’ll bring my own.

            Even your quote supports the Bible. Would you like me to show you how?

          • MountainDewFan4

            The funny thing is, with religious people .. anything … anything can support the Bible.

            Genocide .. yup the Bible did that.
            Murder … The Bible
            Rape … Oh yeah, that’s in the Bible too.
            Stoning innocent people to death … It’s in there!

            One bit of proof that any of this is real …. oh .. oops sorry, that’s the one thing that actually is not in there.

          • smbelow

            I’m not going to get into an Old Testament debate with you. It’s clear you haven’t a clue.

            However, I will ask this of you–a question of reason–seeing you want to attack something you haven’t studied.

            When God not god judges mankind (I know you don’t believe), will his judgement be considered genocide? Please give a reason for your response.

          • MountainDewFan4

            When God not god judges mankind will his judgement be considered genocide.

            Is there a typo here? I really have no idea what this is trying to say.

          • smbelow

            “Is there a typo here?”
            No.

            “I really have no idea”
            Exactly!

            God is the god of EVERYTHING; laws, matter, space, time, etc…
            god is what non-believers normally refer to; normally presented as something that exists space, matter, and time.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Oh, OK … you could have made it clearer that one of the gods was a capital “G”.

            So to answer your original question. Yes. It is genocide when an entire species is wiped off the face of the planet. It doesn’t matter if god, God, Zeus, zeus, Satan, or a magical toaster did it. It is STILL GENOCIDE, and it is still not a very Moral thing to do!

          • smbelow

            So…than…we should open all the jails in the world and allow people to just do what they want without retribution.

            Think! I’ve not hitting you on your lack of understanding of who the Christian God is; I’m only talking about judgment now.

          • MountainDewFan4

            This is a question of morals.

            Is it Moral for a god to drown millions of human beings just because some of them misbehave? The answer is NO!

            So…than…we should open all the jails in the world and allow people to just do what they want without retribution.

            When did I ever say anything like that? Perhaps if your god did a better job controlling his flock we wouldn’t need jails 😉

          • Paul Hiett

            Again though, society dictates what is right and wrong, not your deity. We judge each other in this country, and our law system strives to separate itself from religious rules…from all religions.

            Your god may rule in Heaven, but man rules the earth.

          • smbelow

            Sorry…breaking from conversation. Spent too much time here and have other things to accomplish. Thanks.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Take Care. Was nice talking with you.

          • Paul Hiett

            I understand…my work day ends in 45 mins, and so, too, will my participation until tomorrow.

            Have a great day, and if you’re in Texas or Oklahoma, let’s hope we stay dry tonight!

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you refute the quotes from Jefferson himself that prove he was not a Christian and did not uphold any Christian doctrine in office?

          • smbelow

            Troll alert!!! Didn’t I already tell you my position about Thomas Jefferson. I never said he was a Christian.

          • Paul Hiett

            No, I’m not a troll. Can you conduct yourself with more maturity than to resort to name calling? Thanks.

            There was also the part of my sentence that added “and did not uphold Christian doctrine…”

            There really is no debate here regarding religion in terms of how this country was founded. No religion, none, was given any preferential treatment over another. Ergo, why the Constitution says what it does regarding the establishing of a religion.

          • smbelow

            “No, I’m not a troll.”

            Than start acting like you can comprehend a person’s post. My maturity is not in question. Your behavior all over this Christian site IS! If you want me to post respectfully, than show you can reason.

            And this is what I am talking about:
            “Christian and did not uphold any Christian doctrine”

            The Constitution and laws of the land–not to mention the architecture–support a Christian foundation NOT…NOT…NOT a Christian structure.

            “No religion, none, was given any preferential treatment…”

            Than explain the Christian themed paintings, mosaics, churches, practices, etc…

            You can tell me that the country is no longer Christian; however, to say that it wasn’t founded on Christian principles but secular is historically irresponsible.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, we have many, many churches…old, new, inbetween. Some are gorgeous, some are plain. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

            Christianity, in various forms, was the predominant religion of followers here, but not the only version. As I’ve mentioned, and others as well, many of our founding members were Deists.

            The bottom line is, our country is not a Christian nation. Period.

          • Deina

            These “xtian” fakes define “troll” as anyone who disagrees with them, and they are bound & determined to insult, browbeat, slander, & do anything else they can to us until they’ve convinced us how much God loves us!

          • MountainDewFan4

            “Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!

            But He loves you.”

            – George Carlin

          • MountainDewFan4

            Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

          • smbelow

            Why are you guys continually spouting things that are not relevant to what I wrote. I did not say that Thomas Jefferson was Christian. What religion did he RECOGNIZE as being the foundation in the United States. REGARDLESS to his own personal belief. Stop being historically blind.

          • MountainDewFan4

            OK. What does it matter? Thomas Jefferson owned slaves too! We are talking about what the world was like 250 years ago. If you haven’t noticed … it’s not like that anymore!

          • smbelow

            “Thomas Jefferson owned…”

            Whole different ball of wax there. However, I will mention that I believe it was Bible believing Christians that pushed back against slavery,

            “bout what the world was like 250 years ago”

            And because of moral relativism, the world is much better. right?!

          • MountainDewFan4

            All I’m saying is that arguments over what the Founding Fathers thought, or did or believed, really are not pertinent regarding today’s society.

          • smbelow

            “not pertinent regarding today’s society…”
            I agree with you 1000%!!!

          • The Last Trump

            It doesn’t. That’s why the Establishment Clause says:

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of RELIGION, or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF”

            Not God’s fault that everybody was intelligent enough to be Christian then. God bless ’em!
            And that Christian holidays were made into government and public holidays. And that Christian Bibles were sworn over by all government officials including presidents and supreme court judges. And that…Well, you get the picture.

            Those pesky facts from recorded history that drive you liberal atheists crazy, eh Paul!

            Point is, you can choose to say your own prayers. Or opt out and choose to say none at all. But you can’t PROHIBIT others from doing so.

            Are you offended? Aww, muffin! Tough. That’s your right and mine. We can offend each other regularly without the thought and speech police intervening. We have the right to BE offensive. That’s why these protections are in place. Who needs protection for speech that is popular and agreed upon?!
            Exactly. Liberals. Cry about absolutely everything.
            What a great country! The United States USED to be. 🙁

            ALAS, those days are gone. The liberal gaystapo and atheist agenda have seen to that. Welcome to 1930’s Naz! Germany.
            The parallels are astounding.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Christian Holidays? Can you tell me where it states that jesus was born on December 25th? This was a PAGAN holiday that Christians just decided to make their own.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. That’s all you got out of that?
            THAT tired old ridiculous comment?

            Yeah, Christmas HASN’T (!?) been about Jesus ALL these years. No Christmas plays about the nativity. No carols about the Son of God. No churches filled to capacity.

            Uh huh. You run with that!

          • MountainDewFan4

            To SOME people it has been about Jesus. To others it is about gathering with friends and family, to others it is about the winter Solstice, to others …. NOT EVERYONE IN THIS COUNTRY BELIEVES IN THE SAME STUFF!

          • The Last Trump

            That doesn’t change WHY it was celebrated.
            Atheists still got the time off, believers or not. But they got it thanks to Jesus. You might want to thank Him some time. Or get back to work.

          • Paul Hiett

            You miss the point. You look at only what you see today, rather than the history behind it.

            Most assuredly, every Christmas “tradition”, other than the nativity scence (lol at the camels that didn’t even exist in the middle east at the time), is a pagan tradition.

            If you’re open to an actual discussion regarding its history, I’d be more than happy to discuss it with you, and hopefully educate you on why Christmas today centers around the Winter solstice, and why when you decorate a tree, hang lights, or give gifts, you’re actually practicing pagan customs.

          • The Last Trump

            You’re missing the point.
            Doesn’t matter WHEN He was born. What matters is that we honoured and celebrated it. And took time off from work, school, and government to do so.

            Incidentally, He wasn’t born on December 25th. Most scholars believe sometime in September. But who cares? As long as we remember.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Actually, MOST Scholars believe that he never existed!

          • The Last Trump

            Well, the uneducated ones.

          • MountainDewFan4

            No, actually studies have shown that the more educated you are the less likely you are to believe in god.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes, MAGIC created everything.
            From NOTHING came EVERYTHING!

            Gotta love THOSE studies!
            What nonsense.

            Please, before you post such nonsense agin, feel free to “educate” us all on the origins of the universe and the origins of life, professor.
            Thanks.

            There is no God!
            “Studies!”
            Hee, hee! What a generation.

          • MountainDewFan4

            How did God come into existence? Was it Magic?

          • The Last Trump

            Something had to just BE. No matter what one believes there has to be a starting point. And we have absolutely no idea what HIS environment is like outside of our universe which science has indeed proven to have had a beginning, a starting point, an explosion of light just like the Bible had told us.

            What you know as MAGIC I know as God.
            Have a better explanation for the clear and unmistakable intelligent design we see everywhere we look? Exactly.
            NOTHING cannot create ANYTHING.

            And there is no more ridiculous an argument than stuff just created itself! Without reason or purpose. That is simply not what we see.
            And that’s why real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them. Intelligent Design.
            It’s so painfully obvious that it’s astounding.
            That the scientifically ignorant and uneducated still cling to their completely disproven religion of evolution.

            Not my opinion. Scientific fact. Design. Not a mathematically disproven series of remarkable “accidents”. Check it out.
            You’ll be glad you did. Science is your friend. 🙂

          • MountainDewFan4

            LOL. So you state that basically, something had to just “BE”. You go onto say that God is Magic, but … you can’t beleive in the Big Bang?

            “real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them. Intelligent Design.”

            Really? I must have missed that one. Wow. Real scientists you say? Can you please show me some proof of this (outside of a Christian website please.)

          • The Last Trump

            Absolutely.
            Google search.
            Google is your friend too! Don’t be shy about using it. I do!

            Never ask someone else to do your research for you. It’s distasteful and lazy. And with the modern wonder of the Internet, absolutely unnecessary. Let us know what you discover.

            “LOL. So you state that basically, something had to just “BE”. You go onto say that God is Magic” ??
            Huh? I’m sorry, you DISAGREE that there has to be a starting point?
            Your case is already falling apart my friend! Not a great start!

            “you can’t beleive in the Big Bang?” ??
            Huh? I just DESCRIBED the Big Bang! Hello!

            But HOW did it GO bang? WHO MADE it go bang? WHERE did the “it” come from that WENT BANG? What “universe” did ours go bang IN to have come into existence?

            Gee, there sure are a lot of unanswered questions in the godless version of MAGICAL creation! Guess we’re just not supposed to ask THOSE questions, huh? Not politically correct today.

            Regardless, I asked if you wouldn’t mind disproving my position by presenting the evidence for your own. Remember? I just presented my case. Care to reciprocate?

            No? Not surprising. This happens a lot with atheism and Darwinists.
            No actual case TO present. On account of lack of evidence.

            But don’t let that make you angry. Just get informed.
            There’s a very good reason that you have no evidence to present.

            There just isn’t any.
            Good luck with your research. And God bless! 🙂

          • MountainDewFan4

            Let’s see a Quick Google Search yielded this “… In fact, there is no such controversy in the scientific community; the scientific consensus is that life evolved”

            and this,
            “”Intelligent Design” Not Accepted by Most Scientists | NCSE”

            and even this,
            “Why scientists dismiss ‘intelligent design’ – NBC News”

            As for the Big Bang … yes there are alot of unanswered questions, no one says that man has all the answers yet. It is a very complex thing, which is still being studied.

            Some people can not grasp the concepts which are involved in Quantum mechanics and other such complex sciences and they find it much easier and cleaner to simply state … “God did it”. “Ah, that’s better, Now I have an answer”.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow! THAT was FAST!
            Had to be the fastest research done in the history of doing research!
            Let’s see now, looks like you spent a whole 9 MINUTES on it including the time to read my post and type up your own! And then cherry picked only those AGAINST!

            Good job atheist! Glad to see you give this minor and unimportant topic the attention it deserves. Or not. How typical.

            See I’m wasting my time here. Shocker.
            Still no case to present, eh? Again, shocker.

            Enjoy your ignorance my friend. But by all means, keep coming back, now ya hear! You desperately need the education.
            Again, good luck.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Thanks. Just goes to show how much information there is out there on good old Google that totally refutes your assertion!

          • StereoMan

            Smug bugger aren’t you?

          • MountainDewFan4

            In case you haven’t figured it out .. he’s religious which means he’s always right.

          • StereoMan

            He just reminds me of a child in a classroom getting a math problem wrong on the blackboard and turning around with a big, self-satisfied grin and folding his arms as if to say, look how smart I am and how stupid you all are.

          • The Last Trump

            No, no silly!
            I’m a Christian NOT an atheist!
            Where did I lose you?! 🙂

          • MountainDewFan4

            No atheist claims to have all the answers (well except maybe for Stephen Hawking, but ya know he is one of the smartest men alive.)

            However, ALL Christians claim to have ALL the answers, even if they have to make up some of them.

          • StereoMan

            I just think that when you get schooled by someone you should admit defeat, not walk around making self-congratulatory pronouncements about yourself and eye-rolling sarcasm to the people who proved you wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            Welcome to “The Last Trump”

          • StereoMan

            Thanks, I think. He’s sort of the reason I’m here, I read about him on Fundies Say the Darnedest Things.

          • Paul Hiett

            *spits coffee*

            Ok, that’s awesome. Welcome aboard!

          • The Last Trump

            Hey, hey! One of my Fascists Standing Together Desiring Totalitarianism fans! Welcome to your education! Brought your pen and paper I hope!
            I promise not to disappoint. 😉

            Bring some friends next time, will ya? From what MisterPine tells me, you have quite the ignorant and uneducated bunch back at the old hate machine website of intolerance and bullying. You should be so proud!

            Remember folks! FSTDT dot com! Where haters go to hate! 🙂

          • StereoMan

            No no, it stands for Fundies Say the Darnedest Things. And boy, do you ever. Don’t ever apologize for being a rising star on that site, you’re responsible for some of the most gloriously stupid things I’ve ever seen. I laugh uproariously, and then tell myself you MUST be joking, just trolling? Just a poe? Something? Anything? And then it dawns on me that you’re serious and the laughing starts up again.

            As for the patrons of FSTDT – just science lovers and atheists, no one you have to be concerned about.

          • The Last Trump

            Ah yes! “Science” lovers! 😉
            Still waiting to hear me some actual science from you atheists.
            Any day now, right?

            How does your religion start again?
            “In the beginning there was nothing. Then, IT EXPLODED!?!
            And from NOTHING came EVERYTHING! And somehow, via mysterious and scientifically unduplicated processes with fanciful names like “natural selection” (a.k.a. “magic”) both males and females were formed. And, wouldn’t you know, there just happened to be a rich variety of food sources to go around to sustain everything. And all of this happened completely by accident and without purpose”

            Hee, hee! “Science”!
            Just never gets old!

          • StereoMan

            Ah, your exploding nothing strawman again? Is this all you’ve got, just the one trick pony? Demonizing your opposition by claiming they believe things they don’t believe?

          • The Last Trump

            Actually, I normally just have to ask atheists for any actual hard evidence to support their religion. Anything at all. You know, something other than guesswork, opinion, conjecture and generalization and vaguity.
            Just really wild stuff like specifics and details. You know, actual facts.

            And then, after their ranting and raving, name calling and mud slinging, and desperate attempts at avoidance and topic changing, they always just seem to go away. It’s uncanny. But it works. Just watch!

            Hey Stereo dude from the hate site FSTDT dot com! Can you please tell us how the universe came into existence and how life began? Thanks bud!

            Ok everybody! Better stand back a bit. This is going to get ugly!
            🙂

          • StereoMan

            Do you not even appreciate the irony of your own statement? “something other than guesswork, opinion, conjecture and generalization and vaguity”? Does that sound more like what YOU’VE got, or what I’ve got?

            Can I tell you how the universe came into existence and how life began? I’ve already answered you twice. No I can’t. We don’t know…yet, but we will. That answer is based on science and evidence. The answer you so conveniently have at your fingertips, the Bible, is the best you’ve got to answer the same questions?

          • The Last Trump

            Absolutely!
            Let me know when the “schooling” will begin.
            I’d hate to miss it!
            Present that evidence anytime, folks.
            We’re waiting…

          • StereoMan

            Do you think you would recognize it if you were? I certainly doubt it.

          • The Last Trump

            Huh. Still nothing BUT insults from the atheists. Shocker.
            Where could that evidence BE!? It’s a mystery….

          • StereoMan

            We don’t know…yet.
            The thing is…neither do you. Your 2000 year old book, written by human beings, is a joke.

          • The Last Trump

            The Book that said Armageddon would take place in an Israel that has been reborn after thousands of years without a homeland, because she is surrounded and outnumbered by nations committed to her destruction in a generation of high technology, godlessness, financial collapse, sexual anarchy and immorality, and widespread war?
            That Book?

            Yeah. WHAT A FAIRY TALE!
            Remarkable that intelligent people can somehow convince themselves that THIS really isn’t happening.
            Back to sleep…..
            Back to FSTDT dot com. Where haters go to hate! 🙂

          • Homer for God

            They don’t want to argue that…150 year old science is much more convincing to them. Satan does that to those who are blinded and lost, or are so mad at God. They have to “see to believe” as they keep forgetting that that statement alone is flawed.

          • StereoMan

            This, I think, is why you’re such a hit over at FSTDT. Your holy book, which says the earth is flat, bats are birds, snakes can talk, and the sun was created several days after a couple days had elapsed, is not to be taken seriously by people wishing to live normal lives in the year 2015. What a fairy tale indeed. One full of rape, incest, genocide, torture and violence, but a good MORAL book just the same. Go back to sleep.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh great! Stereo dude is about to explain for all of us just how it was that the writers of the Bible guessed all of that correctly.
            You were saying?

          • StereoMan

            Guessed what all correctly? All the information that conveniently fits but could technically mean about ten billion other things?

          • The Last Trump

            Actually, he’s a former Darwinist turned Christian thanks to his love for research and scientific discovery.
            And you can be too! Just say NO to MAGIC!
            And say YES to SCIENCE! It’s 2015.
            No reason to live in darkness. Stay informed! 🙂

          • MountainDewFan4

            I’m really confused now. You are a Christian who “Says Yes to Science”? I hate to ask… I’m sure this is going to be great .. but …. what does Science have to do with being Christian?

          • The Last Trump

            One really doesn’t have to try very hard to be smug when presented with MAGIC created EVERYTHING!
            And one can afford to be smug when backed up by actual science.
            But by all means, refute it.

            Perhaps you can do what Mountain Dew could not and prove inconclusively that there is in fact no God and magic created everything.

            I’d love to see the evidence!
            No hurry. Understandably, THAT is going to take some time.
            Over 150 years now of Darwinism and still counting…

          • MountainDewFan4

            “backed up by actual science”??? I’m going to have to try not ot laugh at that one.

            Anyway, Let’s reverse the challenge. Let’s have YOU prove that God DOES exist! No Hurry. Oh and anything relating to MAGIC is not acceptable in your proof.

          • The Last Trump

            Hee, hee!
            I can’t believe you just embarrassed yourself with the old “let’s reverse the challenge” tactic! I already stated why the case for God makes sense, remember?
            We’re waiting on YOU to refute it.
            Just scroll back up if you’ve already forgotten what you probably never bothered to actually read in the first place. Mister “9 minutes of “research” dedicated to the minor topic of Intelligent Design! You atheists kill me! 🙂
            Too funny!
            Seriously though, if you find yourself so ill prepared and unable to defend your “beliefs” THAT should tell you something. But just go ahead and ignore that and continue to make your posts attacking Christianity.
            Makes sense. (!?)

          • MountainDewFan4

            No I don’t remember. In which of your 50 posts did you tell us why the case for God makes sense?
            Is it because it’s easier to wrap your mind around then the extremely complex scientific theories?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Oh … you must mean the post where you stated, “What you know as MAGIC I know as God.” and then the post where you stated, “One really doesn’t have to try very hard to be smug when presented with MAGIC created EVERYTHING!”

            You claim that MAGIC is God, but then you also claim that MAGIC is a stupid answer? SOOOO, stay with me, … therefore you are stating that …. God (who is MAGIC) is a stupid answer!

          • The Last Trump

            Sooo…STILL nothing about YOUR case?
            How odd….
            Hmmm…Maybe he’s visually impaired. Hard of hearing?…

          • MountainDewFan4

            Did I ever state that I was an Astro Physicist? I don’t remember saying that? I have no more intelligence than most people, and I do not claim to. All I’m saying is that I’m going to tend to believe what the smartest people on earth are telling me is the most likely scenario.

            But apparently, Mr. (or Ms.) Last Trump is smarter than ALL OF THOSE SCIENTISTS. He knows that they are all wrong. He knows that their research is all bullcrap. He knows that their intricate calculations are all wrong. I guess that makes Mr. Trump the Smartest person on the planet! Wow. I an honored to be in your presence!

          • The Last Trump

            “I’m going to tend to believe what the smartest people on earth are telling me is the most likely scenario”

            And there you have it ladies and gentleman.
            Atheists cannot defend their position because it is simply indefensible. But the vast majority of them don’t even care. They just believe what they are told like good little liberal slaves. And then have the audacity to attack the beliefs of others who actually have scientific evidence backing THEM up! (Told you, Google search. Do your own homework)

            If I was you atheists (and I WAS) I would look into the evidence for and against God and evolution. What you’ll discover will surprise you.
            Don’t listen to me, listen to the evidence. I can’t say it any more honest than that, can I? God’s got nothing to hide. If He’s real, there should be evidence to support that. And there IS.

          • Paul Hiett

            OR…we could just say, “we don’t know 100%, but the evidence we have suggests “this” to us…” which would then apply to all beliefs regarding the origin of the Universe and we could then stop judging each other?

          • The Last Trump

            Why would we do that? Hardly fair to the Christian God who accurately described the Big Bang in Creation as NO OTHER had. Or blessed Christian nations with abundance, freedom and security for as long as they honoured and served Him. Or dared to predict with unmistakable accuracy the end from the beginning.

            You know, those small and insignificant details like Israel reborn after thousands of years and surrounded by nations committed to her destruction, during a generation of godlessness, Christian apostasy, financial collapse, sexual anarchy and widespread war.

            Yeah, let’s turn are backs on HIM. Sorry pal. As much as it irks you, you just can’t change the truth. Christianity has proven itself a hundred times over as in a class of it’s own regarding reliability and dependability. God’s will has continued to be done EXACTLY how He said it would as laid out in the pages of the Bible. Good luck trying to refute THAT.
            It simply can’t be done.

          • MountainDewFan4

            accurately described the Big Bang in Creation as NO OTHER had.

            I don’t recall that chapter of Genesis.

          • The Last Trump

            Not surprising. Judging by how you “read” posts presented to you I can see how you missed it. No worries. Glad I can help.

            The Bible for thousands of years has told us that creation began SUDDENLY when God proclaimed, “Let there be LIGHT.” Further, the Bible repeatedly states that God has “STRETCHED out the heavens.” Interesting choice of words as it turns out. Scientists today are confirming that our universe indeed had a BEGINNING, a SUDDEN explosion of LIGHT followed by rapid EXPANSION.

            Remarkably, the greatest scientific minds of the twentieth century doubted the Creation account in the Bible. Einstein and his contemporaries were convinced that the universe was a constant. That it always just WAS. Until Hubble came along and proved with scientific measurement that the universe was expanding and thus had a beginning. Einstein and the greatest scientific minds of the 20th century WRONG. Bible RIGHT. Care to explain how a bunch of simple shepherds GUESSED all of that correctly when THESE folks couldn’t?

            Exactly. Guess attaching one’s beliefs to what the greatest scientific minds of one’s day tells you isn’t the most reliable method of discovering truth, is it?

            Now let’s consider the ridiculous complexity of DNA. “DNA is an INFORMATION CODE. The overwhelming conclusion is that information DOES NOT and CANNOT arise spontaneously by mechanistic processes. INTELLIGENCE is a necessity in the origin of any informational code, INCLUDING the genetic code, NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME IS GIVEN.” (Lane Lester, Ph.D. Genetics, The Natural Limits to Biological Change, 1989.)

            THAT’S what the science backs up. Intelligent Design.
            But, hey, you guys stick with MAGIC. And call US crazy!
            Suuuure.

          • John N

            >The Bible for thousands of years has told us that creation began SUDDENLY when God proclaimed, “Let there be LIGHT.” ‘

            Well, the bible is wrong. In the beginning, there was no light. Photons were only formed 10 seconds after the initial inflation. Check the theory.

            >’Further, the Bible repeatedly states that God has “STRETCHED out the heavens.”’

            and it continues ‘… like a curtain.’
            Wrong again. The cosmic inflation can in no way be compared with a stretched out curtain.

            Science 2 – bible 0. Shall I continue?

          • Paul Hiett

            Extremist fundamentalists are extreme.

            Clearly, you will never understand that just because other people believe in different ideas, it doesn’t make them wrong.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Paul … you forgot, Mr Last Trump is the most intelligent person on the planet. He knows everything about how the world was created … he knows everything about how it wasn’t created. Apparently he is omniscient.

            (Of course his answers to everything really amount to “MAGIC”, but because it is his god that performs the MAGIC, that is OK.)

          • The Last Trump

            Please, by all means refute the Bible.
            Tell us all where it has been proved WRONG.
            Or just continue to spout your anti-Christian drivel. Your choice.

          • Paul Hiett

            Exodus and Noah’s Flood..two stories that have already been proven false, as written in the Bible.

            Next?

          • Homer for God

            By man (Satan.) Don’t forget how the whole “Lucy” thing panned out for your side.. Don’t try to disprove anything without first omitting man’s fault.

          • Paul Hiett

            You point to man’s mistakes to support your claim, but then point to the Bible, a book written by men, as infallible. Do you understand what “irony” is?

            Also, sorry, but the Flood and Exodus have been proven false, as they are written in the Bible.

          • Homer for God

            It’s not infallible. Man has screwed up several teachings of the Bible (its called religion), but the main message of salvation remains the same.

          • Paul Hiett

            If the Bible is not infallible, as you just admitted, then you are quite clearly stating that the Bible is NOT the word of “God”. Many on here who call themselves Christians would vehemently disagree with you on that point.

          • Homer for God

            Don’t twist words. read the statement on the main mission.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m not twisting anything. You just said the Bible is fallible. Ergo, the Bible is the word of man, and not a deity.

          • Homer for God

            YOU said the Bible was fallible in a different text, I was agreeing with you and pointed out the same thing you did about MAN’S corruption of certain teachings( religion). I’m telling you that GOD’S main message of salvation remained the same. Prophecy is still coming true and you can’t explain it away if you try.

          • Paul Hiett

            Sorry, but I don’t believe anything regarding “prophesies”. Too many people twist events and words to make things fit. There’s literally nothing in the Bible that has come true, unless you skew events into your own interpretation to make them fit.

            Have you thought about Egyptian history yet, and figured out when their civilization simply ceased to exist in the last 6000 years?

          • Homer for God

            I didn’t say that. If you read, I put egyptians in after your missing years.
            It’s funny you keep accusing us of twisting events to suit us when you are doing the EXACT SAME THING FIRST.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m asking you if you can tell me, based on your knowledge of Egyptian history, in the last 6000 years, when did their civilization stop existing for a few years?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Let’s look at where both of these theories came from:

            1) A book written over 2,000 years ago by men who didn’t know where the Sun went at night and claimed that some invisible being told them to write this book.

            2) Billions of hours of research, study and experiments by the worlds most intelligent people over hundreds of years.

            I think I’m more likely to believe ….. Answer 2.

          • The Last Trump

            Soooo…. MAGIC!
            Got it. THAT’S not crazy.

            Still waiting on that case you were going to present.
            No worries. We’ll wait.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Did I ever state that I was an Astro Physicist? I don’t remember saying that? I have no more intelligence than most people, and I do not claim to. All I’m saying is that I’m going to tend to believe what the smartest people on earth are telling me is the most likely scenario.

            But apparently, Mr. (or Ms.) Last Trump is smarter than ALL OF THOSE SCIENTISTS. He knows that they are all wrong. He knows that their research is all bullcrap. He knows that their intricate calculations are all wrong. I guess that makes Mr. Trump the Smartest person on the planet! Wow. I an honored to be in your presence!

          • Paul Hiett

            I’d love to know what you consider “magic”.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Anything that his small mind can not possibly conceive of is instantly called Magic. Sorry, I meant MAGIC. It needs to be capitalized for some reason too.

          • Paul Hiett

            The irony is, what he calls magic is exactly what his choice of a deity is doing.

          • MountainDewFan4

            No .. it’s not MAGIC … come on .. it’s actually … no wait .. you’re right … it is MAGIC. Here’s a quote from him, “What you know as MAGIC I know as God.”

            Now do you get it? Geez, it’s so simple. … (That was sarcastic)

          • The Last Trump

            I’d REALLY love to hear you describe WHAT created everything!
            But I’ll have to settle for your cowardly attempts to shift the focus elsewhere. Anywhere. Just away from actual details at all costs, eh!
            Very wise. Telling. But wise.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’ll ask again. What do you consider to be “magic”? I’m simply curious as to the difference in your posts between Creationism and the BBT.

          • The Last Trump

            !!
            Wow. That has to be the dumbest question I have ever been asked on this forum, by far. What do I consider magic!?
            Although, “are you attracted to men” is a close second.

            Paul, your ridiculous arguments are embarrassing. I am embarrassed for you. What do I consider magic?
            THIS is the question that consumes you?

            Not sure how you could have POSSIBLY missed that in any one of my posts. But by all means, scroll back up in this thread and YOU TELL ME what I clearly pointed out that I consider to be magic!

            Seriously, before I waste anymore time on your nonsense, at the very least prove that you’ve even read my posts. I’m not about to reproduce every one for you on account of your well established laziness. You can’t even be bothered to scroll!

            Wow, you “believers” in evolution are a mess! What is MAGIC!
            That certainly explains a lot.

            And maybe when you’re done wasting both our time, you can get around to answering MY question about what YOU would have us believe created everything. Thanks.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Hey, don’t yell at Paul. He asked a perfectly valid question.

            You yourself stated that “What we call MAGIC, you call God”.

            So … you see how we can be confused.

            Is it magic if something gets created out of nothing?

            Is it magic is someone is said to “exist outside of time and space”?

            Is it magic if we use carbon dating techniques to determine the age of fossils?

            Is it magic when I pick up a phone and hear my daughter on the other end of it?

            Please … enlighten us.

          • The Last Trump

            WOW! Still absolutely NO evidence to put forth?
            Not even the slightest attempt to convince?!!
            And yet you still post. Amazing…

          • Paul Hiett

            My issue in understanding your point is that you’ve muddied the waters in terms of “what is magic”. Ergo, my question to you to detail out specifically what you think “magic” is.

          • The Last Trump

            I “ain’t” muddied nothing! That’s the atheists job. Confuse. Distort. Distract. Ask questions about nothing and avoid having to give details and specifics about what your own religion “believes” at all costs.
            My position is crystal clear. As you well know.
            Any progress yet on how YOU believe everything came into being?
            We’re all DYING to know!

          • Homer for God

            It’s the whole “pop goes the universe” idea. Praise God for allowing this sort of belief and argument, so we can stand up for him and show satan he won’t win us all.

          • Paul Hiett

            You stil haven’t answered it yet. Do you believe magic is something which happens with no other possible explanation? If someone literally conjured up a rabbit out of nothing, is that magic? Can you be somewhat detailed?

            I’ve read your posts, and I’m sorry, but they’re simply not clear on what you, yourself, consider “magic”. This is why I’m asking.

          • The Last Trump

            So, clearly you are vehemently opposed to providing your explanation for creation. And, “you still haven’t answered it yet” would be my line to you.
            And here we are, how many posts later, and you’re still grasping at the meaning of the word “magic”! Go figure. Distract. Evade. Avoid.

            But I’ll tell you what. Compromising and fair guy that I am I’ll explain the concept of magic to you (once again) in as many paragraphs as you would like if you would simply first describe for all here how the universe was “created” and all life came to be. And then we can talk about magic all day long! I’ll even do a couple of tricks!

            Thanks buddy! I knew I could count on you.
            Now let’s stop beating around the bush shall we and get down to those juicy specifics! No need to respond if you are still incapable and ill-prepared to defend your position. I’ll understand. And expect such.

            Ball in your court. Still. And perpetually.
            Can we get a swing THIS time?!

          • Paul Hiett

            Funny…I ask you to clarify your meaning of the word “magic” and then you somehow try to twist around things to suggest that you asked me for my belief on the origins of the universe first. I’d invite you to scroll up and see where I asked you first, but you never admit when you’re wrong.

            I personally believe the BBT presents the best explanation thus far, but I also concede that we simply don’t know for sure what happened, and the truth is, we might never really know. The fact that science never stops looking for new evidence suggests that they’re on the right track though, since the evidence thus far does seem to point to a singular event about 14 billion years or so ago.

            So again, I’ll ask, could you please clarify your personal interpretation of “magic?”

          • The Last Trump

            Funny? Nothing funny about it. You asked about magic, I referred you to my MANY posts about what the word magic means (!?) and how I so skillfully used it in a BUNCH of sentences and asked you about your beliefs, since magic was already addressed. Pretty unfunny stuff actually. And surprisingly uncomplicated enough to confuse!
            But whatever.

            Ok. So let’s break this down, shall we? You believe what the science is telling us, which just so happens to confirm the Biblical account of Creation. That the universe is NOT a constant as Einstein and his contemporaries earnestly believed, but rather, did indeed, have a beginning, a sudden explosion of light followed by rapid expansion.
            How interesting. Yet you admit that you couldn’t possibly know WHO caused the Big Bang, WHAT actually WENT bang, WHY “IT” went bang, WHERE “IT” even came FROM, or WHAT in the world existed, and still exists OUTSIDE of our universe for our universe to have been made “IN”. And since time is relative IN our universe, does TIME even exist outside of it? And yet you have the audacity to boldly declare that there is NO God who may exist in eternity!?

            Amazing. That sure doesn’t sound like science to me. Such arrogant regard for ones own opinion and to hell with the facts, eh? Such a shameful attitude and complete disregard for ALL OF THE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS regarding the origin of YOUR OWN THEORY! Sure sums up the average atheist doesn’t it? Seriously! Would you not agree? I cannot imagine trying to defend such a weak position without getting regularly raked over the “intellectual” coals and most deservedly!

            So what do I mean by magic? The absence of any design or purpose when design and purpose is discovered in everything we study. The ridiculous claim that an Intelligent Designer can not exist when intelligent design glares back at us. The preposterous and irrational insistence that there can be NO God involved in creation when those refusing to consider His existence fail so entirely to explain the origin of their own godless version of their theory.

            Something caused the universe into existence.
            What? Who? Why? How? As long as those questions remain unanswered, God remains on the table. Nobody can definitively declare that there is no God. Unless they are a fool.

            And when you consider the intricate precision, the complexity of design with clear purpose, and the orchestration and balance of a universe unexpectedly governed by laws and principles, CHANCE no longer remains a feasible explanation. Unless one is desperate to escape the notion of God, still without any explanation as to the who, why, how, and what.

            No, the evidence today is quite clear that there is indeed a Master Designer. And to deny Him his due is to believe in magic. If there is no Master Designer than why does the evidence overwhelmingly point to one? If there is no Master Designer than what is your account for creation? What caused the Big Bang? What exploded? Why is there life ONLY on the Earth, still, so far as we can tell? How were males and females formed and with the ability to reproduce?

            The simple answer is, you don’t know. And without a Master Designer, you REALLY have a mystery on your hands! And if random chance is no longer mathematically probable thanks to the ridiculous number of precise variables required and the necessity of intelligence in the clear design of informational codes regardless of the passage of time, looks like were down to magic my friend.

            If God didn’t do it and “nature” couldn’t have possibly done it,
            WHO DONE IT? Ahh, the question of the ages!

            Incidentally, as I pointed out before, the Bible has already laid out God’s will for mankind from start to finish. And to date, NO ONE CAN REFUTE that history has not played out in conformity to His will.
            THAT too, should get your attention. And lend credibility to His actual status AS God, His previous accurate and reliable scientific account of Creation notwithstanding.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Of course I could answer you and your response would be …. “In other words MAGIC” because that’s all you seem to understand.

            Perhaps you should read Simon Singh’s book “Big Bang”. It is very complex, but I’m sure an intelligent person such as yourself would have no problems understanding it, and then later just simply calling it MAGIC.

          • The Last Trump

            Read a book? That’s it? That’s your conclusive evidence?
            Well, that settles it then. I’m convinced. Good job! (!?)
            Yikes!

          • Homer for God

            But yet million upon millions of years are unaccounted for in your history. Its “Big Bang” then “dinosaurs and cavemen” skip a few million years” Then egyptians and recorded history. And you bring this all to light now when you’ve had over 2000 years to present your theories but didn’t. So are you saying that humanity was so stupid that someone, somewhere 10,000, 20,000, even 456,726 years ago couldn’t come up with evolution, big bang, or any other scientific theory and fought off belief in God? or discovered dinosaur bones and concluded that we’ve been around that long? I guarantee that if science is your answer, the history books would be a whole lot different now and we wouldn’t be arguing on who’s right. That’s why your logic is flawed. You expect us to be feed non logical bs in order to further Satan’s agenda to win as many souls as he can. You are accomplishing that fact by taking God out of school and replacing it with man’s flawed theory.

          • Paul Hiett

            How long do you think we’ve had the ability to look into space and measure/study the gases out there? Think about how religion has prevented science from advancing until the last couple of hundred years.

          • Homer for God

            Again blame Christians for your inactiveness…Can’t take responsibility?

          • Paul Hiett

            I didn’t blame Christians, I blamed “religion”. There’s a difference, and I’m not wrong, btw.

            Exactly how do you think man, 10,000 years ago, would have possibly been able to study the cosmos or geology or understand the planets natural history?

          • Homer for God

            By your science (magic). You can’t tell me it’s all of a sudden avilable now…that’s just a laughable and unbelievable. And no every news story you commented on has you blaming Christians (or religion if you prefer) for either causing problems or nor doing anything to fix it. You know its man’s doing not God or their beliefs.

          • Paul Hiett

            10,000 years ago, man wasn’t exactly looking up and saying, “hey, why are we rotating around that big ball of gas?”

            Do you know what they were saying? “Oh great sun goddess, please grant us rain for the upcoming season!’

            Man wasn’t exactly concerned about the stars at that time.

          • Homer for God

            They were worshipping God who created the sun. Thank you for admitting that. No understand that man under the influence of satan has taken that away as commonplace and replaced God (or Goddess if you will ) with science.

          • Paul Hiett

            10,000 years ago, “god” wasn’t even on the radar for mankind, and no, I most certainly did not admit to anything regarding anyone thinking that your deity made the sun. It is glaringly obvious that you know very little about the natural history of mankind. I say that not as an insult, but an observation based on your statements.

            I also notice you brought up the Egyptians and their recorded history. I’m curious, based on your knowledge of Egyptian history, at what point in the last 6000 years or so did the Egyptians stop recording history and completely vanish for a few years before picking up where they left off?

          • Homer for God

            Where’s your proof on 10000 year history? and don’t give me fabricated stuff either. Prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt your statement is true.

          • Paul Hiett

            You want me to prove that man, 10,000 years ago, was not worshiping the Abrahamic version of god?

          • Homer for God

            No.. your statement was “10,000 years ago, ‘God’ wasn’t even on the radar for mankind,” That’s what I want you to prove. The Bible proves the existence of Abraham.

          • Paul Hiett

            The only mention of “Abraham” is in the Bible, and no where else. There is nothing to substantiate that claim. Furthermore, Judaism didn’t even appear until about the year 2000 BC.

            Going even further, the very idea of a monotheistic religion wasn’t considered until Judaism came around. What that means is that prior to 2000 BC, people worshiped may deities. We can see that in the artifacts and idols and paintings from early history.

            Anything else you’d like to learn about?

          • Homer for God

            You didn’t teach anything but man’s interpretation of history which is flawed.

          • Paul Hiett

            All I did was point out some facts to you. You can ignore the facts if you want, but they won’t change.

            Monotheism in religions didn’t come about until about 2000 BC. Judaism is the first monotheistic religion known to man.

            Feel free to refute the facts if you want.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Yes. That’s what we are saying, that humans did not have that type of intelligence until recently. You think that cavemen had access to mass spectrometers?

          • Homer for God

            Wow then you don’t give science too much credit. We are not automatically smart. We didn’t evolve into smart. You are putting down the whole human race by that statement. Truth is science and theories are man’s guesses about how we came to be and created false information and shove it down everyone’s throat and expect everyone to believe it. Christians have written history to back ourselves up and we didn’t instantly become smart. That logic is flawed as well

          • Paul Hiett

            You clearly don’t understand what a scientific theory is. At least google “scientific theory” so you understand the definition.

          • Homer for God

            I’m not going to by into MAN”S guess on how we got here. That is what theory practically boils down to. You have pieces of a puzzle that is incomplete and you examine each piece and make a guess (theory) on how it’s put together.

          • Deina

            Translation: No. He can’t prove it, but he’s hoping that you will waste a couple hours on a wild goose chase, searching for the non-existent.

          • The Last Trump

            Prove what?
            That NOTHING couldn’t possibly create EVERYTHING!?
            Umm….sure?
            Done. 🙂

          • Deina

            So now you try to deflect. You are so predictable!

            You really need to tell your doc about that short term memory loss! Write it down now!

            And that’s why real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them. Intelligent Design.

            As you’ve been told many, many times before, you made the premise so it’s up to you to support it.

            But you never do, do you?

            Of course not, because you can’t!

          • The Last Trump

            Deflect WHAT?
            NOTHING creating EVERYTHING? Hello!
            This needs proving? Seriously?

            And the case FOR God? Google search princess.
            The articles, books, videos, and documentaries are limitless.
            But you would have to take a genuine interest in researching it.
            Can’t help you there. But just a simple google search could make all the difference in the world…

            But stick around. Pay close attention to the pearls of wisdom that come from many of the posts from the Christians here, and you just might find
            that genuine interest to know more developing.

            Or not. Not my job to convince anybody. If it’s important to you, you’ll make time to look. It’s up to you.

          • StereoMan

            “NOTHING creating EVERYTHING? Hello!”

            Yeah, HELLO is right. No atheist believes that. Do you have a name for your strawman? Does he do tricks?

          • The Last Trump

            Typical. Big on insults. Short on facts.
            Do tell. School us all and reveal how atheists “believe” life began.
            This ought to be good! 🙂
            (Gee, I wonder if he’ll just avoid presenting his “case” and revert back to mud slinging…)

          • StereoMan

            Short on facts? It’s true. Atheists don’t believe nothing created everything. It’s a Roy Comfort strawman. To find out what an atheist believes, maybe you should ask an atheist.

            We don’t know how life began. How do you like those apples? I said I didn’t know, and that was totally true and nobody died because of it. We don’t know YET, but we get closer all the time to finding out. What we don’t do is turn to storybooks.

          • The Last Trump

            You mean like the book that detailed the Big Bang thousands of years before we “discovered” it? And predicted that Israel would become a nation again after waiting thousands of years and be surrounded by nations committed to her destruction?
            Yeah, why turn to THAT! Who wants reliability and accuracy!
            Give us magic! Give us random chance and gross improbabilities!
            Hee, hee! What a loon!
            You and me gonna be real close! 😉

          • StereoMan

            The Big Bang…
            …in the Bible?
            LOL!!!!!!
            Oh my God. On FSTDT you were funny. Up close and personal, you are a riot!!!

          • The Last Trump

            No! Seriously? You’re kidding, yes?
            You didn’t know!
            How embarrassing.

            Well, we really shouldn’t be too surprised. An FSTDT dot com regular is definitely going to be confused and misinformed.
            I told you junior. Have a pen and paper at the ready. School is in session! 🙂

            Now what you you’re going to want to do is find a Bible see.
            And then, now pay close attention cause this part is key, you OPEN it!
            And right there in the very first chapters of the very first book (that would be “Genesis”. You’re welcome 🙂 is a very detailed description of how the universe had a beginning. A sudden explosion of light followed by rapid expansion. And wouldn’t you know, science has finally caught up and CONFIRMED it! What a Book, eh Stereo dude! “Old Reliable”!

            Hey, look at you! Only one lesson in and you’re ALREADY light years ahead of those knuckleheads back at the hate machine website, FSTDT dot com. Your welcome, little atheist dude! Be sure to submit all of my posts back to “base” so the rest of the poor lads can catch up!
            Thanks little buddy!

          • StereoMan

            Oh my God. And you’re actually serious, aren’t you? I think what I’ll do is just take this whole incoherent mess and submit it to the Fundies Say the Darnedest Things site and let you see for yourself how ludicrous your claim is. OK with you, little buddy?

          • Tony

            I can end this war….. I believe God created the big bang…. that is how is was formed .. the God did the animals then man-kind .. Remember God can do that… He failed with Man-kind that is why He sent to Jesus died for our sins..

          • Paul Hiett

            Did YOU, of all people, just point out that someone else insults people on this board?

            YOU?

            That’s hilarious.

          • Deina

            And even more deflection!

            You stated:

            And that’s why real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them. Intelligent Design.

            And now you jump all around Robin Hood’s barn trying to avoid it.

            It seems like there’s a word for someone who does things like that, if I could just remember what it was… oh, yes, that’s it!

            Liar!

          • The Last Trump

            Grrrrr! LIAR!!
            ??
            Hee, Hee! Who’s lying about what now?!
            Awww, somebody didn’t do their google search homework again, did they!
            So there are no scientists backing Intelligent Design you say? Really….

            Who’s lying about what again?

            Grrrrrrr!…..Arrrrgh!…….Christians!
            Hee, hee! You trolls are priceless! 🙂

            (And the word you were looking for was Atheist. However, “Darwinist” or “LGBT troll” would also have been accepted! 🙂

          • Deina

            Now you feign victimhood to distract from your lies.

            You truly are a pathetic piece of dog dirt.

            I’ve wasted enough time on you, xtian impostor. (¬_¬)

          • The Last Trump

            Grrrrr!….Arrrrgh!
            Why are there so many Christians on the CHRISTIAN website!?…Grrrr!
            Adorable! 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            Translation: WHAT! I have to do my OWN research! Nobody’s going to spoon feed me information I DON’T EVEN WANT and will refuse to read ANYWAY! Waaaaaaah!
            Talk about wasting time to provide evidence to atheists!
            Typical. Stay ignorant. Looks good on you.
            And you’ll be so much fun, and easy, to debate! Looking forward to it! 😉

          • Deina

            You’re the one trying to prove your point, not us.

            Since you have no interest in providing any supporting evidence, then we’ll simply presume it’s more of your famous “facts that you made up.

          • The Last Trump

            Prove that nothing has never created anything?!
            Um, …I’m really not.
            (Psssst! It’s kinda just a FACT! Sorry! )

          • Deina

            Why is it that while Jesus never used lies, deceit, trickery, or any other such bamboozlement when He was here teaching, some who want us to think they are His followers have no such reluctance?

            This fraudulent dingbat to whom I respond knows full well that that which we ask him to prove is his statement that “And that’s why real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them.”

            But, like a petulant 5-year-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar, he lies about it! Instead of doing the honorable thing & either prove his statement or admit he was mistaken, he pretends he doesn’t know what we’re talking about, and pretends that he thinks we’re talking about something else, and pretends that he’s the victim in this discussion.

            I guess one can’t expect much else from a pretend Christian.

            With hypocrites like him manning the pews, it’s no wonder that young people are staying away from churches in droves!

          • The Last Trump

            Now Deina. Your hate is showing. Again.
            I have no explanation as to why you simply refuse to do a simple google search. Truthfully, I am at a loss. And then, to add to our own lazy and shameful behaviour we slander others with unfounded and accusatory untruths! About the research we absolutely refused to do!

            With uneducated and lazy attitudes such as yours it’s no wonder so many people are living in ignorance and avoiding churches in droves!
            Ignorance is bliss, so they say! Don’t get mad, sweetie. Get informed.
            You won’t look so foolish that way.
            (Remember now, Google search. Google is your friend! 🙂

          • Deina

            Proving your case is not my job!

            If you’re too lazy to present support, or, more likely, you know your premise isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, then that’s good enough for me.

            If you don’t prove it, then don’t expect anyone else to believe it.

            Next time either be prepared to support your position, or flush it down with everything else you get from the same source.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. Deina honey. Where is all this anger coming from?
            “Proving your case is NOT MY JOB!!” Grrrrrr! Arrrrgh!
            What is all this case proving nonsense?! I’m sorry, are we in COURT!?
            I just passed along some pertinent information. Do with it what you will.
            Do nothing at all if you so choose. But for the love of God, grow up.
            Google search sweetie. Google. Search.
            There’s no excuse for stupidity and ignorance with unlimited knowledge just a keystroke away. Use it. Or don’t. But stop embarrassing yourself.

          • oregon_man

            Hey oh mouthy pal, please take your own advice and google search “confirmation bias”. So you’ll know.

          • Deina

            Do you want some cheese to go with your whine?

            Sorry, I don’t hate anyone! Though I do get pretty disgusted with people who act like they’re still in kindergarten, such as yourself.

            Matthew 7:21-23 | New American Standard Bible (NASB)
            {21}”Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. {22}Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ {23}And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

          • The Last Trump

            Hmmm…..I wonder if she realizes that she just described the fate of homosexuals who reject the Word of God yet somehow believe themselves to be Christians…..
            Probably not. 🙁

          • oregon_man

            When you have no case you starting using the “hate” word. I think it is you who has hate. It’s on your mind all the time.

          • Tony

            DEATH to non-Christians..
            No man cometh to the Father but by Me ,
            Sayth Jesus.. The believers are immortal
            .They shall not die but have ever lasting
            life. I prayed and read the BIBLE in school
            (1980s) too. I bowed my head in the moment of quiet.
            I put my hand on my heart during the American Anthem.
            The Pledge of Allegiance was said and all was quiet .
            .. Everyone could Wear a shirt with an American Flag on
            it to school. Not like in a town in Californication …
            . I remember when it was Great to be and American and
            great to be a Christian.. Take the Christian out of
            America and it will fall.. It has already started…
            Time to jump ship and find a new place but where would
            that be exactly ??? I think Israel is the place where
            Christians and Jewish people can live in harmony..
            I’d say Ireland but they now allow the HomoDiseased
            to marry so that rules them out..

          • Deina

            Well, wherever you go, you should do it as soon as possible — you don’t want to wait until all the good spots are gone!

          • The Last Trump

            Hey, who you fighting with now? Just here spreading the hate around in equal measure, huh? That’s nice.
            Well, looks like you’re busy. I’ll come back later.
            We can do that thing again where you outright refuse to do any research whatsoever and then attack me and call me a liar over the information that you never actually ever looked into! Good times!
            Hee, hee! Nothin’ like conversing with liberal anti-Christian LGBT trolls that stalk CHRISTIAN websites! Grrrr! Arrrrgh! Christians!! Ahhhhhh! 🙂

          • tsig

            Are you having a seizure?

          • oregon_man

            Yes, go to Israel, please. America will be a better place.

          • oregon_man

            You so want to think you have scored but your victory is false and only in your head. You can’t win a debate of this nature. There doesn’t have to be a beginning, a start. You should prove your claim is true.

          • Deina

            .. Actually, here it is from both sides:

            http://youtu. be/GVmdCAT7Rc8

          • oregon_man

            There is no science in Intelligent Design. Your “nothing…” is only one theory not yet widely accepted. And, “Something had to just BE. No matter what one believes there has to be a starting point.” is a theory that is part of being human because that it all we know. We couldn’t envision the universe until we saw it through telescopes.

            “”real scientists today are rejecting the religion of evolution and embracing what the data is telling them. Intelligent Design.”

            This is a total lie. Just the opposite is true. No real scientist accepts intelligent design.

          • oregon_man

            MountainDew stated a fact, not a belief. Your attempts to belittle science fail, regardless of “Hee hee”, the most significant.

          • smbelow

            “Actually, MOST Scholars…”
            I can’t believe you actually wrote that. You need to stop now.

          • MountainDewFan4

            According to a Harris poll from 2013. The % of people who believe in god varies drastically based on education.

            High school or less 60%
            Some college 55%
            College graduate 48%
            Post graduate 37%

            Therefore, yes, MOST scholars do not believe in god !

          • smbelow

            I thought you were talking about the existence of “Jesus.” The post above mentions Jesus. Did I misread? I’m typing a lot, so I might have jumped too soon.

            I have no problem with your Harris poll; a Book written thousands of years ago already predicted that.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Jesus, God, God, Jesus … aren’t they the same person, or the son of the same person who then betrayed himself and sent himself in his son’s body to take on the sins of his son who is really himself? Or something like that?

          • smbelow

            “Jesus, God, God, Jesus ….”
            Of course, but I’m trying to look at this from your worldview. Although, you have the story wrong. I know your just bringing out the child in you and mocking the subject–another product of postmodernism.

            Returning to existence of Jesus Christ. Very few scholars now deny the existence of a person named “Jesus.”

          • MountainDewFan4

            OK. That’s a statement I can agree with.

            However, it is still debatable as to whether or not this particular Jesus did any of the things that the Bible says he did.

          • Tony

            In Normeni Patri , Et Filli ,Et spiritus Scanti .. In the name of the Father ,the Son The holy Spirit.. 3 different parts of the God Head..

          • Paul Hiett

            When Jesus was born is obviously irrelevant…but the point stands that the traditions we associate with Christmas today have no connection to Christianity.

            These practices and customs were ‘imported’ to Christianity to make it more appealing.

          • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

            Ever heard of the internet? It’s a thing. You can easily find a “defense” of “christmas” in “december” at your favourite pro-homosexual search engine. Knock yourself out.

          • Lark62

            1. I am sure you are aware that the constitution was drafted in 1787 and ratified 1789. As the revolutionary war ended in 1783, any fog of war was long gone.

            2. I get that you believe that your religious beliefs are the only right ones. That has no bearing on the fact that EVERYONE’S religious beliefs are protected.

          • smbelow

            “any fog of war was long gone.”

            Really!? Remember, people back then probably had a longer attention span than we do now.

            “EVERYONE’S religious beliefs are protected….”

            Not possible. When ideologies conflict, one has to concede to the other. Enter: postmodernism. 🙂

          • Lark62

            Yes, possible. Because the government stays neutral.

            If school employees are allowed to lead prayers, someone’s rights will be violated.

            But if the principal keeps his mouth shut about religion while representing the school, each kid can pray quietly or not as they prefer. Hence no problem.

          • smbelow

            “Yes, possible…”

            I guess you are very selective to your idea of neutral.

            ” lead prayers, ”

            Not saying this.

            “But if the principal keeps his mouth”

            Enter the modern school system

          • MountainDewFan4

            NEUTRAL meaning that there are no references to any religion.

            Praying to a christian god … NOT NEUTRAL.
            Praying to a Roman goddess .. NOT NEUTRAL
            Reading a thesis supporting the notion that there are no gods .. NOT NEUTRAL

            Doing nothing one way or the other concerning religion. …. NEUTRAL.

            It’s pretty simple.

          • smbelow

            Morals are not “neutral.”

            How is doing nothing in regards to morals neutral? Without moral directness, society will fall apart. And…what’s happening now?

            All your neutral talk is scary. Especially to Bible believers.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I said nothing about Morals … this was talking about a statement which stated that “Everyone’s religious beliefs are protected”.

          • smbelow

            Oops…I’m getting a little lost with all these God haters around here. So I apologize if I attribute something to you that you didn’t say.

            “Everyone’s religious beliefs are protected”

            And again, recent events in the court system proves this is not the case. And the so called legal system–which should be based on morals–is used to defend the violation of religious protection. Mainly, at the behest of the Christian.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I’m sorry .. perhaps you don’t know me as well as you think. I am not a God hater. I am not a religious person hater. I am a person who believes that EVERYONE in this country (The United Stated) should be allowed to believe in whatever they do or do not want to believe in WITHOUT the government telling me what it thinks I should believe in.

            I do not hate God any more than I hate Zeus, or unicorns, or the invisible pink bunny rabbit sitting on the desk next to you. I simply do not believe that they exist.

          • smbelow

            “I do not hate God any more than I hate Zeus, or unicorns, or the invisible pink bunny rabbit …”

            “perhaps you don’t know me as well as you think.”
            I think I don’t know you at all. I’m only rationalizing your word choice.

            And to me your mocking words tell another story. Because yes! You do hate God and Christ. That’s obvious. But to rap it in terminology like “Zeus” and “unicorns” just makes you look intellectually weak minded. You should study a little about mythology and even unicorns before you decide to post something about them as if you’re on to something.

          • MountainDewFan4

            OK, do YOU hate Zeus? Do YOU hate unicorns? I’m going out on a limb here and saying that the answer is “No, how can I hate something that I do not think exists”.

          • smbelow

            “how can I hate something that I do not think exists”
            Christian website. Christian content. You can give some ignorant excuse all you want, but you’re here because, maybe, God’s trying to get your attention. You know he exists; you just don’t want to face the ugliness in your life. I know if I didn’t believe something I wouldn’t be hanging out were the topic is sure to be.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I know that he exists (lowercase ‘h’ was just copying yours, I’m sorry if that is inappropriate).

            Wow. You really know ALOT about me. You know that I know he exists. WRONG! In fact, I am 100% certain that he DOES NOT EXIST. (I know, I know, you can not prove that he doesn’t exist, but I wasn’t saying that I have proof that he doesn’t exist, I was only saying that I am 100% certain that he does not.)

            I don’t want to face the Ugliness in my life. WRONG! What makes you think that I have an ugliness in my life? I haven’t believed in god since I was 8 years old and realized that Santa Claus didn’t exist. At the same time I realized that it was equally as unlikely that god exists. (Oh wait … do you believe in Santa? I hope I didn’t ruin it for you.)

            I’m only hanging out here because I secretly believe in god. WRONG again. I am hangin out here because I firmly beleive that the PUBLIC SCHOOL system should be totally FREE from religion in all forms, Christian, Jewish, Atheists, Muslim, Wiccan, etc.

          • Paul Hiett

            SM, just because someone has a different belief system than you doesn’t mean that that person is against you, or “hates” whatever belief choices you’ve made in your life. We simply believe in different things.

            What we fight for, is to prevent your belief system from ruling over the rest of us. We also fight to make sure ANY belief system is prevented from being the law of the land.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Well said Mr. Hiett.

          • Lark62

            I resent the behavior of certain christians who think they can use our public schools to promote their brand of religion.

            But I don’t hate them. And I certainly don’t hate the fairy tale genocidal maniac they worship. Next you’re gonna tell me I hate Darth Vader and Yoda.

          • Lark62

            You made the invisible pink bunny rabbit angry. You wouldn’t like him when he’s angry.

            😉

          • oregon_man

            There we go, a favorite phrase, “God haters”. I knew it was coming. If that is true then you are a “freedom hater”, even if it’s not true you are still a freedom hater as you demand to impose your will on others.

          • oregon_man

            How are morals not neutral? I know many Christians think they invented morality, but even chimpanzees have moral values. So please elaborate on that.

          • Lark62

            Neutral.

            School emoloyees while on the clock do not encourage religion, promote religion or lead prayers.

            Also – School emoloyees while on the clock do not say that any religious belief is wrong or silly or in any way discourage personal religious belief.

            On the subject of religious belief, school employees keep out of student’s personal space.

            Is that so hard?

          • smbelow

            Tell that to the students that are forced to go to Mosques, dress like Muslims, and recite Muslim religious prayers.

            I’m not even going to get into the lies of naturalism that permeate the schools these days.

          • MountainDewFan4

            What do Muslims have to do with schools in the United States?

          • smbelow

            Umm…do you not read the news? Man! I’m not even going to help you on this one.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I don’t actually read every single news story there is, and this is one that I am not familiar with, sorry.

          • Paul Hiett

            SM, what you are referencing regarding Muslims is not happening. That was blown way out of proportion and was 100% inaccurately reported.

          • Lark62

            A comparative religion class in a high school visited a mosque and fundies had kittens.

            The girls in the class were told to dress modestly and wear a scarf. I don’t know how I feel about that. I dislike both christian and muslim purity teaching.

            But in any case, the class was teaching about different religions not teaching that islam is correct.

            By fundie logic, if one HS class took a field trip to a mosque, school principals should be allowed to promote Christianity daily.

          • Deina

            I think that’s wonderful! It’s great that they’re learning of other cultures. Maybe through understanding our grandkids & ggk will be able to fix what we’ve so horribly screwed up!

            Taking a field trip to a mosque, and dressing in a manner that shows respect to them for allowing them to visit, is no more likely to “turn them into Muslims” than visiting a symphony will turn them into musicians, or visiting a museum will make them artists or archeologists.

            Why are fundies so terrified of knowledge?

          • oregon_man

            Enter: devolution.

      • Tony

        Paul said Go into the World and tell all of the earth He Lives!!! DEATH to non-Christians.. No man cometh to the Father but by Me ,Sayth
        Jesus.. The believers are immortal .They shall not die but have ever
        lasting life. I prayed and read the BIBLE in school (1980s) too. I bowed
        my head in the moment of quiet. I put my hand on my heart during the
        American Anthem.The Pledge of Allegiance was said and all was quiet … Everyone could Wear a shirt with an American Flag on it
        to school. Not like in a town in Californication …. I remember when
        it was Great to be and American and great to be a Christian.. Take the
        Christian out of America and it will fall.. It has already started…
        Time to jump ship and find a new place but where would that be exactly
        ??? I think Israel is the place where Christians and Jewish people can
        live in harmony.. I’d say Ireland but they now allow the HomoDiseased to
        marry so that rules them out..

        • Paul Hiett

          Death to non-Christian?

          You’re just like ISIS. Period.

    • oregon_man

      Just keep reading the comments in here. You’ll see there are many who would love to change the constitution to force their religion on others.

  • FoJC_Forever

    This is simply a homosexual who is using humanism to fight his war against the Word of God. Homosexuality is sinful and against God’s Will and Word. It always has been, and always will be.

    Judgement is coming.

    • MountainDewFan4

      Um .. no. This is someone who is a CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA who happens to believe that a PUBLIC GOVERNMENT run school should not be leading the students and teachers in Prayer, which is AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION of the United States of America !!!

  • Lexical Cannibal

    As a practitioner of a non-Christian faith, if I had a child in that school, I’d be upset as well. We’ve got enough people trying to pressure/scare/convince us into leaving our (deeply held) religious beliefs to join one of Christianity’s 42 flavors, my kids don’t need any additional pressure from a place that’s supposed to be a safe learning environment. What I think what galls me the most though is how one-sided these things tend to be; people will stand up and defend Christ’s place in schools until they go blue, but spend just as much effort keeping other religions out. For the record, I don’t want my religion taught in schools as fact or my prayers over the loudspeaker. I want a safe, neutral learning environment where my child can learn what x equals and what Shakespeare is even saying without feeling like he has to give up his religion so his teachers will like him.

    • FoJC_Forever

      You don’t practice Faith, you practice a false religion. There is only one Faith and it comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. All other ways are sinful and lead to Eternal Damnation.

      • Lexical Cannibal

        Wait, you mean I’ve been practicing a false religion my entire life? And no one told me?! Oh man, this is a trip, you’ve changed everything. My eyes have been opened. Where before I would have seen this comment as a superficial, needlessly rude word salad, I can now hear the lord a-callin’. Thank you for your prophetic words which not only absolutely pertain to the topic of this article, but I also have definitely never heard before. If only someone had told me! Better go call my (now former) religious leader. What if no one’s told him either?

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          A word of advice: don’t respond to this person. It just encourages his foul rants.

          • pastoredsmith

            Agreed.

        • FoJC_Forever

          Sarcasm is all you have? Sad.

          Everyone hears the Truth for a first time.

      • MountainDewFan4

        Prove it.

        • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

          God will prove it after death to those who rejected the truth.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Prove that he will prove it.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I will not kill you to prove it. In time you will know. It can only be proved to you through death.
            Shalom <

          • Paul Hiett

            So until then, it’s just your opinion.

            Sorry, I won’t tolerate living life under the rule of someone’s religious opinion.

          • pastoredsmith

            Yes, Paul. I know your atheist beliefs would rather silence all religions except one. Atheism. And, you wish that religion to rule the world.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            * Paul Hiett * I will pray for you ,stand in the gap for your soul . Other than that I am not replying to you any more. I am not playing your games against Christians.
            Shalom <

        • FoJC_Forever

          God has already proved it.

      • Jim H

        Faith is just “the firm belief in something for which there is no proof” (Webster). People believe all sorts of stupid stuff for no reason.

        • FoJC_Forever

          You’ve stated the false definition of Faith, as is accepted by those who do not know Jesus (the) Christ.

          Believing God’s Word, who is Jesus (the) Christ, is the catalyst for receiving Faith. Faith is the power that manifests the Promise within the Word that we initially believed.

          • Jim H

            Noah Webster was something of a freethinker, early in his life, but in 1808 he became a convert to Calvinistic orthodoxy, and thereafter became a devout Congregationalist who preached the need to Christianize the nation.
            Doubtless, he would roll over in his grave at your accusation about his dictionary..

            However, regardless of what pious sounding religious word salad you put together about faith, It is still something for which there is no proof.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I would direct you to the Scriptures for the definition of Faith, but your mind is dark and your eyes are blind to their meanings. You have to know Jesus to know what His Word means.

          • Jim H

            As I said:

            “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

            Hebrews 11:1

            My goodness, how did my dark mind and blind eyes know that? I guess its not as exclusive as you think.

          • FoJC_Forever

            A simple word search at a Bible search web site will give you Scriptures about Faith.

            Webster’s Dictionary is not Scripture.

          • Jim H

            “Webster’s Dictionary is not Scripture.”

            Thank you, but I already knew that. Didn’t you know that Hebrews, which I quoted, was scripture, and it was about Faith?

            If you knew that, what was the point of your comment?

          • FoJC_Forever

            Look up all the Scriptures about Faith. If you obtain Understanding from the LORD through the Holy Spirit, you will see that Faith isn’t belief. Thus, the word Faith used as a general term to describe what people individually or collectively believe is in error.

            Believing God’s Word is the initial act of receiving Faith. In a similar fashion, a car’s tires and rims are not the same, but they are inextricably attached to one another so that one cannot function as intended without the other. Believing something which is contrary to God’s Word will not impart Faith to the person who believes a Lie.

            There is only One Faith, and it comes through Jesus (the) Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God made flesh.

            So, yes, as the Scripture tells us, Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, but belief is not. Someone who believes that, say, a Muslim’s god is the God is wrong, because their declaration of God is not in accordance with His Word, Jesus (the) Christ. This Truth applies to anything people believe which is contrary to God’s Word.

          • tsig

            Sometimes tires go flat and so does faith.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I knew someone would try to over apply the analogy. Anyway, Faith doesn’t “go flat”, but it can die if not acted upon.

            I scrolled down and now realize you’re just a troll. Trolls waste their time and lives and minds.

          • tsig

            Name calling already? I guess that’s the easy way out just slap on a label and you can ignore what I’m saying.

          • Jim H

            “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, but belief is not.”

            That is just theological sounding word salad, lacking in any intellectual substance, as was pretty much everything that preceded it.

            You probably know the New Testament was written in Greek, not English. If you look at the Greek words and their meanings, and actually think about the subject, faith is belief and you are the one in error. Capitalization of Faith does not change its meaning.

            The Greek word translated as faith, is pistis (noun) and the one translated as believe is translated from pistevo (verb), so it is obvious they have the same root.

            The word believe (Greek verb “pistevo”), according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary, means: to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing). That means faith is believing in some person or thing. That also means faith is a belief in some person or thing.

            If I say, “I don’t jump out a window because I have faith in the law of Gravity.” How is that different than saying “I don’t jump out a window because I believe in the law of Gravity.”, or “I don’t jump out a window because I have a belief in the law of Gravity.”

            Put another way:

            Faith is to believing, what a race is to running and Faith is to belief, what a race is to a run.

            Words have meanings that you cannot arbitrarily change.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Oh, you’re one of those kind. You like to throw around the Greek and Hebrew language origins as though they make you sound knowledgeable about the Scriptures.

            I’m not changing the meaning of Faith or belief. You can believe that there are multiple gods, and you will not receive Faith. I’m not the one who changed the meanings of Faith and belief, it is society and false religions which changed the meanings. Believing a Lie is not of Faith. There is only One Faith.

            Faith is not merely belief, as most understand it. Faith is one of the three Eternal Attributes of God – Faith, Hope, and Love.

            You are mixing terms and straying from Scripture.

          • Jim H

            “Oh, you’re one of those kind. You like to throw around the Greek and Hebrew language origins as though they make you sound knowledgeable about the Scriptures.”

            I should have known. You’re one of those kind. You object to actually studying the Bible from anything close to a scholarly, historical, or critical approach.

            “You are mixing terms and straying from Scripture.
            No, I think you are drawing distinctions between terms that obviously didn’t exist in their usage in their original Greek. Since scripture was written in Greek, you are the one straying from it by not adhering to its original meaning and saying it says something it doesn’t to support your presuppositions about it.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You sound intelligent, and you do possess a level of human intelligence, but you lack Wisdom and trust in your own ability to understand. I’ve reviewed many of your comments and conversations, and your approach is more like a predator swooping in to take and pick at what you like, what makes you look powerful and strong. You’re ambiguous, intentionally, and conversations with you do not lead to Truth, as any conversation with a person dedicated to unbelief would.

          • Jim H

            I have had a great passion for the Bible and studied it for many years from various perspectives and have come to view it quite broadly.

            However, I do, in fact, find it ludicrous that people have the hubris to assume that they have the “correct” view. Even though there are over 8,000 Christian denominations who all claim to be sola scriptura, with Bible as the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice, but they just can’t agree on exactly what it says. I find it hard not to comment on that sort of thing.

            I personally don’t care what anyone believes. Like Jefferson said:

            “But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

            However, I also believe it should stay a personal matter, also much like Jefferson:

            “I have considered it as a matter between every man and his maker, in which no other, & far less the public, had a right to intermeddle.”

            So, I also do take exception to the intrusion of religious values into public policy debates. Particularly when those views represent a particular religious view being written into the law.

            You see me as a predator because I go after your particular views. I see myself more as a protector of more diverse ones.

            You capitalize words like Faith Wisdom and Truth for effect, but that really just shows you respect your Faith, your Wisdom and your Truth. All of which is in accord with your narrow perspective.

          • Yah Saves

            Scripture is defined as the Torah, Prophets and Psalms-not letters from Paul. Good grief.

          • Jim H

            You need to take that up with FoJC_Forever. I’m sure it will be a pleasant discussion.

          • tsig

            If you know Jesus then you don’t need faith.

          • tsig

            I believe I have vinegar and chrism dressing with that.

      • oregon_man

        That’s the thing about all religions and their followers, “all religions are wrong except mine”. If there was a god, do you think he would go for that?

        • pastoredsmith

          That’s because all religions are false except the only one that is real. But, this is not about that subject. It’s about one’s freedom to practice their religion unfettered by the government….or other idiots who want to strip all freedoms of speech and religion such as yourself.

          • oregon_man

            You are free to practice your religion. You are not free to impose your religion on others, which is imposing on their freedom. You should not speak of idiots until you look in the mirror.

          • pastoredsmith

            Imposing religion is what they do in the UK with a national church. But, forbidding Christians (or anyone else who is religious) from religious expression because you call us “tyrants” is Communistic. Even offensive language is protected in the USA….even the government gives “grants” to “artists” who dip the Crucifix in a vat of urine. And, you’ve never seen a Christian behead anyone because of that. It’s called American tolerance. But, that seems to escape you.
            Are you a member of the Nazi party? You would make a great Hitler drone.

          • tsig

            He would fly around looking like Hitler?

          • oregon_man

            I am so happy that we have a constitution that protects us from would-be tyrants like you.

          • pastoredsmith

            Tyrants? If you love tyrants, why don’t you move to Cuba where you can find out what it really means to have your opinion stuffed inside you and forbidden to be released.
            You don’t know the difference between a “tyrant” and a person who loves people. smh…..

          • tsig

            “to have your opinion stuffed inside you and forbidden to be released.”

            Constipated with Jesus?

        • FoJC_Forever

          All religions are wrong accept God’s religion. Jesus Christ is His Word made flesh, He is the Son of God. He is Truth. I agree with Him.

          • tsig

            If I could have cut a strip off Jesus and ate it I’d be full of the Word’o’God?

      • StereoMan

        As a fundamentalist, you are in no position to tell others they practice false religions. Yours is a hate-based, radical house of cards with no regard for truth, science or historical fact.

        • FoJC_Forever

          I already told you, I’m not a “fundamentalist”. I am Christian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a member of the Kingdom of God.

          You labels mean nothing to me, nor do they mean anything to God.

          • StereoMan

            “I already told you, I’m not a “fundamentalist”. I am Christian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a member of the Kingdom of God.”

            So are Catholics.

          • pastoredsmith

            Well, at least you got it partially right. Now try accepting ALL Christians as God does and you’re there. If you are truly a member of the “Kingdom of God,” and I’m not doubting your word, I suggest you not judge anyone you disagree with.
            Someone much wiser than I once said, “Evangelism is one beggar showing another beggar where to find bread.”

          • StereoMan

            I think you should be addressing this comment to FoJC_Forever, not me. He is the one saying Catholics are not Christians.

          • pastoredsmith

            His loss.

          • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

            Catholics aren’t Christians, nor are protestants Christians just for going to church. One must be born again to be in the Body of Christ. Simple as that. John 3:3, 3:5, 3:7

          • StereoMan

            Hundreds of years before there were so-called Born Again Christians, there were Catholic Christians. That is history.

          • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

            But are they all priests and all saints as is written in Psalms and also by Peter himself? Do they have only one mediator between God the Father and themselves, that being Jesus Christ, or do they make a kingdom on earth with a pope which isn’t Biblical at all? It isn’t who you claim to follow, but if you have been regenerated with a fully new nature, know God personally, been born-again. It’s that simple.

          • StereoMan

            It sounds to me like you are trying to impose the rules of Fundamentalist Christianity on Christians who were Christians long before you were. The thing that gives you away is when you say something is “not Biblical”…well, “Bible-only” Christians like you are pretty new in the grand scope of Christianity. In the early days, it wan’t JUST the Bible, there was also church teaching and sacred tradition that people used as their authority. Did you even know that?

          • tsig

            Know god personally do you?

            Is he good with small talk? Did the wounds leave scars?

            Was being born again hard on your mother?

          • FoJC_Forever

            You are a troll and a liar. You are blind and cannot see Truth. You have chosen to be these things. You follow the spirits sent out by the father of lies to deceive the world into believing that Catholicism is Christianity.

            Catholicism is pagan religion masquerading as Christianity.

          • StereoMan

            It’s just too, too hilarious. You ignore history. You ignore the dictionary. Everyone’s lying to you except your fundie pastor.

            This is inexcusable on your part. It is willful ignorance. You are saying something so over the top insane and calling OTHERS liars. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being. Catholics are no less Christian just because you hate them.

    • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

      I am continually amazed that Evangelicals get sucked into these Church/State pseudo-controversies. I don’t want my faith taught or promoted in public schools because frankly they have no idea what it is and I would rather children be told nothing than be told a distortion. The Church needs to get disentangled from the State as much as possible. We don’t need government approval or special favors. He who pays the piper calls the tune, and I certainly don’t want to be dancing to a secular humanist’s tune.

    • pastoredsmith

      What you advocate Lexical Dannibal is that all schools become atheist zones. Some call it “religion free zones,” but it means the exact same thing. Our country is about free expression, we call it freedom of speech and freedom of religion as guaranteed by the First Amendment.
      All of us want a safe learning environment for our kids, but as long as there are different people, our lives will never be “neutral.” The thing we need to do is to learn to get along with one another rather than smother our freedoms.

      • Lexical Cannibal

        It’s funny that you should mention the first amendment. That pesky first amendment i legally interpreted to mean that the government shall not promote or discount religious beliefs. Public schools are an extension of the government, and a school-observed prayer most certainly counts as a promotion. To be clear, I’m not against religion in schools insofar as banning it completely; I see nothing wrong with students having or reasonably sharing their beliefs, or even with student-lead religious groups. What I do have a problem with is when teachers, or worse; administration; starts throwing around their own beliefs. That’s no longer just another student. That’s an authority figure in my child’s life telling my child that the faith their parents raised them with does not get recognized in this place. We do agree on one thing though; we should all try to get along. I say we start by not targeting each other’s children in captive environments.

        • pastoredsmith

          Typical liberal. You forgot, as usual, the most important part of the First Amendment. “nor prohibit the free exercise thereof.” That is NOT about freedom to believe, it is freedom to PRACTICE one’s religion….in public, at school, when one works in government, etc. No, the government does NOT have the right to tell Americans when and where to practice their religion by law. No Court opinion can legally override that, although they try.
          So, should teachers or administrators be silenced? Should they not have free speech and the same rights? Yes, I understand “proselytizing” using pressure. But, to be forbidden to even mention their faith, no matter what “religion” is in question.
          Yes, if we all could learn to get along and respect one another enough to allow every one to practice their religion without allowing coercion but allowing free speech and religious rights, then the problem would be completely solved.

          • Lexical Cannibal

            Oh, but you were so nice before. Now I guess I’m just a “typical liberal” Ah well. Still, for all your claiming that I forgot something, you’re also forgetting something, or perhaps willfully neglected it. The fact that teachers are essentially acting as extensions of the government that hires them. This, I find, is where a lot of these discussions break down, usually over how “Christian” you perceive the government to be.

            See generally, I expect my government to be pretty religiously neutral, if only so it can impartially adjudicate disputes between different faiths. This official neutrality is absolutely key to making sure that people’s individual rights aren’t unfairly trampled by others, particularly when they’re in the minority. Particularly, this maintains the “free exercise thereof” by not creating a governmentally-instituted hostile environment in which to privately practice faith. By working for the government, an employee takes on that neutrality to some degree in their official capacity. Court judges don’t generally reference the book of leviticus but of law, justices of the peace don’t refuse to marry people from outside of their faith, cops don’t try to fine people for working on holy days. What have you. I see no reason for public schools to be exempt from this. They serve the public, and that public is not uniformly Christian. Even within Christianity, they are not uniformly one way or the other.

            Nobody’s asking teachers to completely give up their faith. Well, some people probably are, but I think we can both agree that those people are jerks. Rather, all I want is for schools not to push their faith on young, impressionable people whose parents may or may not find it anathema to the way they try to raise that young person.

            You keep waving around the idea of respecting others’ right to practice their faith like I’m not someone who’s regularly asked to stop practicing his faith, even privately. Part of that respect which you hold so dear but seems oh so inconvenient to you is the concept of a respectful distance. I respect your right to Christianity and your right to practice it. However, do respect non-Christians who might not want that implied disdain for their beliefs thrown in their faces.

          • pastoredsmith

            Really, extensions of the government? How pathetic! States run the school systems, supposedly, NOT the Federal Government. And, the Feds have no authority to limit free speech or religious expression ANYWHERE. If these people are extensions of the government, then all of us are and the government gets to decide morality. Where do you get such a delusion? America is a FREE country, not a Communist dictatorship! We are “government of the people, by the people and for the people.” We tell the government what to do, not vice versa. The government in the USA as we know it is going rogue and ignoring the Constitution, often rewriting it as they go; even referring to the document as a “living” document. Such is the work of power-hungry individuals in DC these days….on both sides of the isle, unfortunately.

            You said “You keep waving around the idea of respecting others’ right to practice their faith like I’m not someone who’s regularly asked to stop practicing his faith, even privately. Part of that respect which you hold so dear but seems oh so inconvenient to you is the concept of a respectful distance. I respect your right to Christianity and your right to practice it. However, do respect non-Christians who might not want that implied disdain for their beliefs thrown in their faces.” Really? So you think the government should put barriers in between Christians and the rest of the world? Or are you saying that you are so sensitive that you simply cannot stand to even hear the name of Jesus Christ or watch somebody who loves Him as they express their faith in public? Respect non-Christians? True Christians realize that God gave all of mankind a choice. Yes, we highly respect that. It is a few kooks who give Christianity a bad name. The same can be said for Buddhists and other religions, including the religion of atheism. We must learn to deal with the kooks rather than destroy America. That’s my point that seems to evade you.

          • oregon_man

            “It is a few kooks who give Christianity a bad name” your tyrannical views make you one of them.

          • pastoredsmith

            How unAmerican of you! Perhaps you would be happier living in Cuba. I hear they don’t allow any speech rights to the pubic at all.

          • oregon_man

            I’m curious, what sector of the church do you pastor? Perhaps you should move to antarctica and preach only to penguins, where you could do less harm.

          • pastoredsmith

            No, I’m an American and I’ll stay right here at home and continue to preach the Gospel of Christ here.
            You judge so harshly for a “man” who has no idea of whom you judge. But, it is your right to be an idiot….for the time being, the Constitution still stands.

          • tsig

            Seems odd that you are basing your faith on the constitution and not Jesus.

          • Corkryn

            “Really, extensions of the government? How pathetic! States run the school systems, supposedly, NOT the Federal Government.”

            State GOVERNMENTS are bound by the US Constitution as well. Check the Supremacy Clause.

            “And, the Feds have no authority to limit free speech or religious expression ANYWHERE.”

            They absolutely do. There a laws against, for instance, shouting “FIRE” in a crowded theatre or ritualistically sacrificing chickens on the steps of city hall. Your rights of expression, religious or otherwise, extend only to the tip of my nose, as it were.

            I’ve assumed the latter half of your post is just as fraught with factual errors and other irrational assertions based on either your “gut” or the equally irrelevant Bible, so I didn’t bother reading it.

          • pastoredsmith

            Shouting “fire” in a crowded room has exactly what to do with religious expression? You wish to make it available for the government to regulate speech? So, you rejoice when Christians get stymied by the government not even realizing that it affects EVERY person in the US. Today, Christians. Tomorrow, everybody else.
            YOU, NOR YOUR ROGUE GOVERNMENT CAN SILENCE THE GOSPEL.
            Apparently, you wouldn’t know a “factual error” if it bit you on the nose. I won’t waste my time debating with a person who refuses to read the Bible at all.

          • Corkryn

            You brought up free speech. Did you forget? The government already does regulate speech and religious expression when it infringes upon the rights of others or threatens harm. That’s simply a fact. I mentioned the shouting “fire” thing, but there are also many laws prohibiting slander, libel, and threats of bodily injury that have been upheld under Constitutional scrutiny. None of the rights enumerated in the Constitution are absolute. A person convicted of a crime losing their right to keep and bear arms is another fine example.

            That you actually believe that the Bible and its contents has any relevance whatsoever to this discussion speaks to how little you actually understand about our government functions. It doesn’t work the way you think it does, but I don’t expect reality to sway your opinions. You’re a conservative.

          • pastoredsmith

            I forgot nothing. You obviously failed American history. The Bible and its principles are interwoven all throughout the Constitution and every single founding document in this country. You really should tell the truth rather than that atheist-altered garbage you read behind.

          • Jim H

            “That is NOT about freedom to believe, it is freedom to PRACTICE one’s religion….in public, at school, when one works in government, etc.”

            Would you extend that freedom to practice their religion to everyone, including Satanists, Pagans (Wiccans), Voodoo (Santerians), Native Americans, etc.

            Could they: wear upside down crosses, read the Satanic Bible, and have black masses; dance naked in a circle; ritualistically kill chickens and other small animals as sacrifices; or use peyote and chant, in public, at school, when they work in government, etc?”

            I have actually known normal people with good honest jobs who were Santerian and several who were Wiccan.

            I fact, I drove through a Starbucks just yesterday and the girl at the window was wearing a five pointed star. I said: “Is that a pentagram?” She said “Yes.” When I asked “Wiccan?”, she appeared a little nervous and said: “Sort of.” I was tempted to ask if she danced naked in the moonlight, but that would have been skanky. However, she was pretty cute, in a gothic sort of way.

            If we are going to allow “all” religions free expression, then we would need to extend it to even the ones we don’t like. I suspect you would not like that much in actual application.

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s just it, Jim. It’s not up to you or me to decide who exercises their freedoms in public. It is in the Constitution. Yes, all these false religions have the right to practice in public just as Christians do. And, each of us has the right to refute those who speak lies. That is the beauty of America. Even offensive speech is protected under the First Amendment; at least it used to be.
            Your suspicions about my “not lik(ing) that much in actual application” are dead wrong. My philosophy is American, and it is based on God’s law. Let them pray, chant and show their beliefs in false gods. It won’t do them any good anyway and will certainly prove to the rest of the world that they are fools.
            I believe in Freedom. Sad that you would rather have government controls on free speech.

          • oregon_man

            Your demand to impose your will on others is no part of “the beauty of America”. Try the Middle East where many states follow your ideas.

          • pastoredsmith

            I impose nothing on anybody, except freedom, and I will give my life to defend that. Too bad you prefer Communism.

          • oregon_man

            Please give your life today. I can tell the world will be a better place. If you demand that your prayers be heard by others, you are forcing it. Get off your cloud and come down to earth. It is amazing you call yourself a pastor. I cringe to think how you lie and decieve anyone who would follow your advice.

          • pastoredsmith

            I will gladly give my life in defense of our country and its freedoms. It is a crying shame that you apparently want to turn this country into a Nazi dictatorship.
            You won’t succeed. I will pray that God opens your eyes.

          • Toaster

            You go from Communist to Nazi and still make no sense.

          • Toaster

            I’m sure you will be pleased when your child comes home with a Muslim prayer all memorized. I’m sure you will support the school when it says that your child must pray daily in order to pass the course work

          • oregon_man

            Baloney, you are trying to FORCE religion into public schools. If not the shut up and there will be no problem.

          • pastoredsmith

            You have no idea what you accuse me of! Christians are not trying to force anything on anybody! All we want is FREEDOM to express it openly. No more “prohibit(ing) the free exercise thereof” as is going on these days. For that, I, as a patriotic American, will die to defend, as our forefathers did so many years ago.

          • Jim H

            “Your suspicions about my “not lik(ing) that much in actual application” are dead wrong.”

            Actually, I’m glad you feel that way. You seem be quite consistent and fair in your position. I apologize for assuming you were not.

            “I believe in Freedom. Sad that you would rather have government controls on free speech.”

            I really don’t want the government controlling free speech either. I didn’t realize that I said that I did.

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s good to hear, Jim. I am very saddened at the numbers of people who feel opposite of that. Atheists demand that all religions be silent. When that doesn’t work, they resort to hatred, mockery and slanderous lies. This is not necessary nor is it helpful to this country when our major freedoms are threatened.
            My argument is about freedom of speech and religion. No matter what a person believes, nor what his worldview might be, we all must agree that freedom is paramount, else we all will become subjected to forced silence in public. It is not something to rejoice about when someone is silenced, even if what they say is offensive. We don’t need to protect speech that is not offensive because nobody objects to it. But, speech that is offensive needs protection.
            Common sense dictates that some actions must remain illegal, even in a free country. But, many accuse those of us who advocate freedoms to remain of wanting these illegal actions made legal because of their utter hatred of those they disagree with.
            My fight is for freedom. Period.

          • Jim H

            If I read you correctly, I agree.

          • pastoredsmith

            Same here. Have a good day.

          • Toaster

            The First Amendment does have its limitations

          • pastoredsmith

            Not from the government. You should reread the text where it plainly forbids such interference from the Feds.

          • Jim H

            I mistakenly directed my comment “If we are going to allow “all” religions free expression, then we would need to extend it to even the ones we don’t like. I suspect you would not like that much in actual application.” to pasoredsmith.

            He agreed you would/should. However, you have stepped up to prove my point about some voices in this debate only wanting freedom to practice their religion.

            Thank you.

          • pastoredsmith

            The only way to prohibit Americans from expressing their religious beliefs is to eliminate or rewrite the First Amendment. You should read it.
            As to false religions parading around in America, yes, it is legal. My opinion is that they should be allowed to do so. After all, it will only serve to make fools of them in public. Let them pray. it won’t do any good anyway. Only prayers to the ONE TRUE GOD are answered anyway.

          • oregon_man

            You can pray in silence in school all you want. But you are demanding a right to force your religion on others by public meeting. The constitution does not allow you to force your religion on others and the Supreme Court has reiterated this.

          • pastoredsmith

            Public meeting? Absurd. It is stealing freedom to prevent free speech, even if it is against your twisted belief system. Free speech is NOT forcing anything on anyone. You really should learn this.

          • oregon_man

            You have all the free speech you want. You do not have a right to force your twisted idea of free speech on others. Then it is not free, it would be forced. You should learn this.

          • pastoredsmith

            Once again, for the thousandth time. Expressing free speech and forcing any idea are two different things.
            Christian kids are forced to endure science teachers at public schools as they teach man-made theories as “fact” and deny all possibility of any Creation by a God. Christians are restrained from reciting anything that even remotely resembles a Christian statement or prayer at graduation. Bibles are forbidden at public schools, and a teacher can even be fired for bringing one to class.
            In the military, Chaplains are forbidden from praying in Jesus’ Name, although it is the church who commissioned them to serve in this capacity. Now, it is not enough to ask what the preferred religion is when a Chaplain ministers to a wounded soldier, it is now forbidden.
            Free speech? No, it is being forbidden, whoever you, Mr. “oregan_man.” I have learned American History well. Apparently you flunked out. You really should take it again.

          • oregon_man

            You’re an ass. It really amazes me you think you are a pastor, spreading the gospel. Jesus would weep.

          • pastoredsmith

            I’m done with you. Your judgmentalism has finished this conversation. You think you are an American, yet you want freedoms taken away. Have a nice day, and i will pray for you.

          • tsig

            Maybe he would get out the scourges he used to clean the temple.

          • pastoredsmith

            Yeah, keep it silent. Keep it to yourself. What about the garbage you spout? Do you keep it silent? What about atheists? They demand “religion free zones” (another word for “atheist zones”) and get it because they hold their breath until their little freethinking face turns blue.
            Get real. You are advocating something completely different than freedom of speech and religion.
            Just come clean and admit it. You must be a Nazi or something based on the things you post here.

          • tsig

            And we have a winner of the famous Godwin Award, the winning of which signals the losing of the debate.

          • Toaster

            Religious ‘freedom’ only exists within civil law. Civil law will always trump religious law. The first amendment has its limitations and one of those limitation is when the practice of religion infringes on the rights of others

          • pastoredsmith

            No, Christian law is most important to a Christian. As to American law, check the founding fathers and determine for yourself what they thought was the basis for the foundation of this country. Freedom of religion has no restrictions from government, according to the first amendment.

          • Toaster

            Actually that is not true. Civil law is the ultimate law of the land and religious law must operate within it. There are many restrictions by government regarding the practice of religion. For example, it is not legal to do mass animal sacrifices. It is not legal to abuse or mutilate your children. For the Christians, it is not legal to stone adulterers or to sacrifice a cow. Companies can demand that a Christian employee work on a holy day.

          • pastoredsmith

            What a moronic thing to say! Christians don’t stone adulterers or sacrifice cows you idiot.
            Are you an atheist? If not, you certainly sound like you’re using atheist talking point #3. “When you have no argument with a Christian, slander him.” You lose.
            Your assertions are as ridiculous as your Christian comments.
            Good evening. This conversation is over.

          • Toaster

            The reason you do not do these things (even though they are in the Bible) is because they are against the law.

            Religious law MUST obey the law of the land. The only place where they have the right to their religious law is in a country where religion IS the law (Theocracy)

            I understand that you are at a loss for a reasonable argument and that you may not wish to respond further. I accept your surrender

          • pastoredsmith

            The only thing you know about the Bible is how to slander it. The truth is that you are ignorant and have no idea what you speak of.
            I have no loss for a reasonable argument, I just decided not to ague with a slanderer who has only one argument, atheist talking points.
            And, you have trouble with GOODBYE. I am praying for you. GOODBYE.

          • Toaster

            I probably know more about the Bible than you do. I not only understand the religious significance but also understand the sociological significance. Of course my position is non-theist. This is why I am so effective on trumping your argument. I can see into your mind where you cannot see into mine. I understand your talking points…..but also know how to rip them to shreds.

            I do understand your goodbye and I’m sure you are not praying for me. I make you angry because you know I am right.

          • pastoredsmith

            Wrong again flyboy. On all accounts.
            Yes, I am praying for you. And, I’m not angry at you.
            I just refuse to argue with an atheist hater.
            GOODBYE. A thing you seem to have trouble with.
            GOODBYE.

          • Toaster

            I don’t hate Pastor. I mock. In order to mock, one must have a person willing to accept a concept worthy of mockery. Theists are a prime example of this. So are the anti-vaxers and climate change deniers.

            The reason you refuse to debate with an atheist is that you cannot reasonably debate a faith driven concept. Debate requires you to present something and to defend it against arguments. You made a statement and then I refuted it. That’s how it works.

            It is interesting that you accuse me of having trouble with goodbye when I have not said goodbye. You, on the other hand, have said it in a few posts and yet you are still here.

          • pastoredsmith

            You lie, atheist. You have no basis for morality, so you have no reason to tell any truth unless it benefits you.
            I refuse to argue with you because you are a fool, according to the Bible you say you know so much about.
            I refuse to stoop to your level and mock. You cannot refute anything the Bible says, so you choose to mock and ridicule.
            I don’t care what you say. I’m done with this “discussion.” Take your mockery with you when you leave.
            I’m done with you, and I’m praying for your.
            GOODBYE.
            It’s yours now. Mock away. It will only make you look like a fool sporting for a fight which i refuse to give you.

          • Toaster

            Do you see how angry you are becoming? Do you see how you are stooping to personal attacks when logic evades you?

            I ridicule the concepts that fuel a faith that is presented as truth. It is always fascinating when theists take their faith to the real world and try to present it as reality based. Most often, they react when I find a flaw in their argument and they become angry and aggressive. I don’t do this with most people of faith as they keep their faith to themselves. I do enjoy the process with the arrogant theist.

            You have proven my point about theists Pastordsmith. I accept your defeat and look forward to another session with you in the future

          • tsig

            I see this is the Long Goodbye. 🙂

    • Tony

      DEATH to non-Christians.. No man cometh to the Father but by Me ,Sayth Jesus.. The believers are immortal .They shall not die but have ever lasting life. I prayed and read the BIBLE in school (1980s) too. I bowed my head in the moment of quiet. I put my hand on my heart during the American Anthem. The Pledge of Allegiance was said and all was quiet … Everyone could Wear a shirt with an American Flag on it to school. Not like in a town in Californication …. I remember when it was Great to be and American and great to be a Christian.. Take the Christian out of America and it will fall.. It has already started… Time to jump ship and find a new place but where would that be exactly ??? I think Israel is the place where Christians and Jewish people can live in harmony.. I’d say Ireland but they now allow the HomoDiseased to marry so that rules them out..

      • Jim H

        Bye. Don’t let Lady (the Statue of) Liberty kick you all in the a$$ on the way out.

      • http://www.google.com/ Jan van Niekerk

        Actually, Israel is the place where recently a Christian wedding venue was shut down for not paying reverence to the gods of gay “marriage”.

    • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

      Christ is king, and is real. To reject him is to reject eternal life. There is a reason we care about upholding the worship of the one true king.

  • FoJC_Forever

    There hasn’t been one case reported where a child was not included in public schools over their religion or lack of religion. Although it may happen from time to time, maybe, it is extremely rare, at best. The cases making headlines are people attacking prayer and Christianity, as if they can’t just remain quiet for a minute or two, then proceed on with their day. This is simply another work of the Devil to scare people into hiding their religious beliefs.

    Every position a person takes apart from following Jesus (the) Christ is a position of Death not Life, a position of Darkness not Light, a position of Sin not Righteousness.

    Praise the LORD for being found worthy to suffer for His name’s sake. Glory, honor, and power be unto the King of kings and Lord of lords, Jesus (the) Christ.

    • Paul Hiett

      So what if people believe differently than you? You’re no better than anyone else, so I think it’s time you folks stepped off of the pedestal you put yourself on and realize that everyone in this country is equal, and deserving of the same rights, privileges, and protections as anyone else. You wouldn’t tolerate the prayers of Islam in your child’s public school, so it certainly appears hypocritical to support Christian prayers in our public schools.

      • FoJC_Forever

        Paul, the troll! You took a break, eh? Now you’re back with your normal garbage. If you only really cared about anything other than trolling and provoking attention, you’d be worth the time for serious dialogue.

        • Richard

          In addition to him being a hypocrite and liar. Why would anyone want to relate to such a dubious character?

          But there is hope for him in Christ. God can clean up all that mess.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ahh, how quaint…two replies, and neither of you actually address the points, but instead you, predictably, go right for the ad hom’s.

            Par for the course.

        • SFBruce

          I’m all for “serious dialogue,” but I don’t think calling someone names instead of using facts and logic to refute his comment is a good way to start one.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Facts and logic aren’t Truth. Leave out certain facts and other facts can be misinterpreted and misapplied. Logic is subjective.

            Calling someone a troll isn’t simply calling them a name, it is identifying their purpose and practice.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Only a religious person could say that “Facts and logic aren’t truth”. That really sums up religion nicely doesn’t it?

        • Paul Hiett

          If you’re interested in engaging in “serious dialogue”, I’m all for it.

      • MountainDewFan4

        Well Paul, troll or not, doesn’t matter to me. I agree with you 100%. Christians think that if they like doing something then everyone in this country must do that. If Christians do not like doing something then no one in this country should be allowed to do that!

        Atheists and humanists however feel like, let’s treat everyone equally, and let’s let everyone make their own decisions.

        A PUBLIC school is not a place to read prayers to EVERYONE in attendance.

    • Lark62

      As a christian, I expect you believe there is a correct way to pray and correct beings to pray to. Do you pray to the virgin mary? Some think it’s good others think it is sin. Do you pray to hindu gods or only in jesus’ name? Would you be uncomfortable sitting through prayers you believe insult your god? What if those prayers happened daily?

      Other people have religious rights too. Every single kid gets to attend public school without praying to someone else’s god. Your kid. My kid. The hindu kid. Every.Single.Kid.

      • FoJC_Forever

        If you were indeed a Christian, you’d have enough respect for the name of Jesus to do a simple thing like capitalize His name.

        You need to read what Jesus said about prayer. You obviously lack much understanding.

        • MountainDewFan4

          Yeah, you know what Jesus said about prayer (look an atheist capitalized His name, and the word His too … geez).
          Jesus says, that sometimes if I feel like it I might answer your prayer, but ya know, not always, and certainly not for anything that is not humanly possible. don’t ask me to regrow a severed limb or anything .. just ask me to help you get better if you are sick, because time … I mean god … can do THAT.. Can’t replace limbs though … sorry.

    • MountainDewFan4

      “Every position a person takes apart from following Jesus (the) Christ is a position of Death”

      That is YOUR opinion, and you are entitled to that opinion. However, PLEASE let everyone else in the country have their OWN opinion. DO NOT FORCE your opinion down their throats, and do not allow the government to tell me what my opinion should be!

      • FoJC_Forever

        I’m not forcing anything down anyone’s throat.

        Truth is not opinion. Truth is Eternal and not subject your whims and self-belief.

    • Lark62

      There are dozens of cases where kids were ostracized for not going along with religious activity public schools.

      One teacher in Louisiana put a fill in the blank jesus message at the bottom of every test and publicly humilated a hindu boy who didnt fill it in. One teacher told a first grader that he shouldn’t listen to his mother because she was an atheist and was going to hell.

      It isn’t rare. And it’s not hard or onerous to prevent, or shouldn’t be. People paid by taxpayers don’t promote religion on the clock. People paid by taxpayers don’t use the authority of their govt job to influence the religious beliefs or activities of others. Simple.

      • FoJC_Forever

        Given you reject Truth, I am in doubt of your accounts. Do you have any links to reports of these accounts?

        Even if you’re accurate, out of the millions of people in public schools, a few dozen still constitutes a rarity.

        • MountainDewFan4

          It’s not a few dozen. I have Three children. All three of them have been picked on because they do not say the words “under god” during the pledge. Across the country there are literally MILLIONS of children who do not believe in god (33% of people under 21 DO NOT BELEIVE IN GOD!)

          • FoJC_Forever

            By “picked on”, do you mean merely questioned about it?

            Have they been assaulted? If yes, how? Were they verbally berated? If yes, what names were they called, what was said to them?

            I don’t agree with bullying at all, and I don’t practice it.

            That said, the USA’s founding documents mention God front and center. yet, people want to participate in the country while rejecting one of the primary things mentioned in said documents, God’s existence.

          • MountainDewFan4

            ONE OF THE PRIMARY THINGS MENTIONED?????

            Don’t you mean, one of the obscure things only briefly mentioned? Where is the Constitution of the United States (other than the date it was signed) is God Mentioned? WHERE? Certainly if god was one of the PRIMARY things mentioned, it should be in there dozens of times, right? WRONG!
            ZERO! That’s right, ZERO . Unless you count the date. then it’s all the way up to ONE obscure mention of god.

            Don’t Friggin LIE and say that God is “one of the primary things mentioned in said documents” !!!!!!!

          • FoJC_Forever

            You’re wrong. And, by the reactions you give, I’m wondering if your children don’t mimic this same attitude and berate Christians on a regular basis. Without seeing your children in action during the day at school, I can’t know for certain, but children are prone to mimic their parents.

            No, God is not obscurely mentioned within the founding documents of the USA. While the USA is not a Christian Nation, the Christian religion is an integral part of its founding.

          • FoJC_Forever

            “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–”

            The opening of the document that started the formation of the USA mentions God, front and center. Reality.

        • Lark62

          http:// www. usatoday. com/story/ news/nation/2014/03/14/buddhist-student-louisiana-settlement/6440001/

          http://www. patheos. com/ blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/02/10/lawsuit-alleges-that-georgia-teacher-told-child-not-to-listen-to-his-mother-because-she-doesnt-believe-in-god/

          Remove extra spaces

          There are new cases weekly.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Allegedly. A story from someone who is antichrist is always going to defame God and the LORD.

            Buddhism is stupid. It’s a pagan belief system which leads people to Eternal Damnation. As well, it’s not bad to advise a child to not listen to their parents when it comes to things about the LORD, if the parent doesn’t believe in God.

            There are far more cases of people getting trashed for Christian religious beliefs, than other religious harassment.

            Atheists harass Christians and defend people of non-Christians religions regularly. Reality.

          • Paul Hiett

            LOL…”all other beliefs are stupid but mine”

            Yeah, never heard that one before…

          • Lark62

            Buddhism is stupid, you say? It is okay for a school teacher to disparage the child’s religion?

            Wow. Just wow. You are wrong.

            The school cannot tell students which religion to believe. It is illegal for school employees to proselytize. Period.

            Get it?

            You will find very few examples of non christian school employees discouraging christian belief. There are near daIly examples of christian school employees breaking the law by promoting christianity.

            It’s illegal. It’s wrong. And it flat out isn’t very nice.

          • FoJC_Forever

            It’s not illegal per the Constitution, but may be illegal per laws which run askew to the Constitution.

          • Lark62

            IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES FOR A PERSON ACTING WITH GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY TO ESTABLISH A RELIGIOUS BELIEF AS PREFERRED.

            IT IS ILLEGAL FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEES TO PROSELYTIZE WHILE ACTING IN THEIR OFFICIAL CAPACITY.

          • FoJC_Forever

            No.

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

            School teachers aren’t Congress. School teachers do not represent Congress. Congress represents the people, including public school teachers, students, school administrators, and school employees.

            School teachers have the right to express their religious beliefs in public schools. School teachers don’t have the right to curtail students from expressing their religious beliefs, which includes rejecting religious belief.

            Those who choose to hold no religious beliefs, (which is holding a non-belief in religion, thus a form of religious belief), do not have the right to curtail students or school teachers or school administrators or school employees from expressing their religious beliefs.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You believe it is okay for you and others to disparage a Christian child’s religion. You violate your own premise.

            School teachers have the Constitutional right to practice their religion – anywhere.

          • Lark62

            The exact same rules apply to all. Taxpayer paid employees cannot use their position to proselytize, no matter what religion (or not) they practice.

            It absolutely is not okay for teachers to disparage christian beliefs.

            Same rules for all.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Same rule for all. Taxpayer paid employees should not be forced to practice non-religion, which is a form of religious belief.

  • Homer for God

    Heard and hear is my rebuttal. Take it as you like:

    By
    spending my hard earned, taxpayer money concentrating on taking our God out of school, instead of taking my
    hard earned, taxpayer money and funding education like it should by paying the
    teachers who care to take their time out of their lives to properly educated
    your child one on one (just like you had as a child and your parents and
    grandparents and so on). By cutting that crucial fund, those educators are
    quitting to find better paying jobs to feed their family. Instead your children
    (and many mostly throughout all public
    middle and high schools) are taught by lazy, overwhelmed, teachers who have
    given up and let “modules” teach your kids. Before you respond with
    “that’s not my school” or “that’s not everyone”, understand
    that you are correct, but if you do the same research you always ask us to
    provide (which we do by the way), you will see the increasingly steady decline
    in education since the turn of the 20th century (amazingly around the discovery
    of these theory’s). That number has gotten progressively worse in the past 20
    years(incredibly around the time the shift in focus of this country is to keep the
    sin of abortion legal and recognize the sin of homosexuality as its own entity
    by giving it rights). That is a joke. By taking this “hands off” approach
    to teaching (and parenting)as well as encouragement to embrace, endorse and support sin such as homosexuality and
    abortion, while trying to force my children to believe that what a theorist
    said 150 years ago about us crawling out of ooze so many million years ago and
    another theorist, not even 100 years ago, saying we came out of nowhere is the
    correct truth because all of a sudden we found big bones and what appears to be
    a fossil ? Because someone looked through a telescope and suddenly thought
    “this can’t be God. No being is this capable.” and decide to tell my
    child that and also his ancestors were
    monkeys? Not only that, but make him swallow your “fact” that since
    there is no afterlife, and the only way for him to be remembered is to do
    something extraordinary memorable (all the while ignoring the fact that not
    everyone is remembered and that by your beliefs, are forgotten) ? All the while crying that for over 2000 years
    Christianity has forced us for too long to follow their ways ( like we have had
    a literal gun to your head and on your family heads and told you believe or
    else). You have essentially become the embodiment of the reasoning for taking
    God out of our schools. This country is not free if there are restrictions to
    that freedom. You are trying to tell us it’s are choice to be gay, it’s our
    choice to kill the unborn, but it’s not our choice to believe in the Bible over
    evolution? That’s hypocritical. Just remember, 20, 30 years ago, if you saw a
    man dressed as a woman go into a bathroom after your son or daughter just went
    in there, you would freak out. Now you want “transgendered” people to
    use whatever bathroom they want?!? This is what you want my Child to learn? To
    turn morality to man’s current sick twisted view of it? I prefer to home school
    where that will end up being the last
    bastion of good education.

    I know none of you
    are going to agree and probably respond in your usual manner. By that I mean,
    point out how un educated I am, how Christians are cherry pickers believing in
    false or make believe truth. You’ll point out all the flaws you see in my rebuttal
    and even goad me by asking questions you
    believe are unanswerable or will swing the argument to your favor. I have also anticipated
    the childish responses as well. Just remember, as a Christian, my opinion will never change on God as I have experienced God more times than I can imagine.
    I know that for over 2000 years now, the Bible (no matter how many times men have tried to corrupt it including any argument you throw at me about it) has one main message throughout the whole book. God created each and every one of us individually (big, small, man, woman, normal anatomy, deformity of some sort)
    to have a unique relationship with him. He also gave you the power of choice to
    have that relationship with him and presents advantages and disadvantages by
    laying out that basic code of morality (treat each other with respect, don’t
    kill or murder, don’t steal, rape, and so on) and even allows us to monitor
    that code and we have. Each culture has their own set of rules and regulations
    on how to treat each one. No matter how
    much you deny him, of believe he’s fake or made-up, he believes in you and has
    never left you. You don’t think he works
    on your heart, but why oh why do you keep coming back here, to CHRISTIAN
    WEBSITES, to argue the same points that have been countered? If I wanted to
    show that man is better than God or that God doesn’t exist, then I would try to
    outshine every Christian based missions, relief effort, organizations that feed
    the homeless, provide medical attention
    to low income families by creating organizations myself (non-profit of
    course) that provides the same things and make sure my or man’s name in general
    did that…not God. Before the rebuttal again, a lot of current corrupt organizations
    started out Faith based. Man Corrupts, not God.

    Bottom line is no
    matter how much you want to believe it, If we were forcing you to believe in
    God, you wouldn’t be here arguing. We can’t force your children to believe in God,
    so you shouldn’t try to force them to believe in evolution, and that it’s ok to
    accept the sin of homosexuality or abortion. They deserve the right to be
    exposed equally and let them choose for themselves That is why we fought for
    our freedom to begin with. So let’s put
    our hard earned, tax-payer money back in the hands of our educators ( of ALL
    KINDS) that care about the development of our children, so they can run our future
    the best way they can. God Bless each and every one of you.

    • Lark62

      The paragraphs were too long. In tried to read it. I will try to respond to what I think is the point.

      If schools lose money in court battles, it is because a court determined they violated a student’s rights. The solution is not for schools to be allowed to break the law withour consequences. The solution is for schools to obey the law and respect the religious diversity of the student body. The FFRF tries to get compliance without going to court, abd usually asks for $1 in damages. It isn’t abour money. It is about the freedom to attend public school without one’s religious beliefs being trampled.

      Evolution is not the opposite of religion. Many, many christians accept evolution. Evolution is a scientific theory with massive amounts of evidence suusupporting it. The evidence is as strong or stronger than the evidence for the Germ Theory of Disease, Atomic Theory and the Theory of Gravity. Evolution is the basisn for understanding. biology.

      • Homer for God

        Ok I hope that helps (I edited it so you can read better.) Theories are by man and believed by man in his effort to rebel against God. God’s word is truth and the way. Dispute it all you want, but you wouldn’t even have this kind of thinking if it wasn’t for your creation by God. Please re read my rebuttal again. You want to take away that choice to believe in God and that is no different then you accusing us of forcing you to believe. The children are suffering and already giving up on their futures because of our arguing on who’s right and whose wrong. I’m saying let them make that decision.

        • Paul Hiett

          Not allowing the prayers of any religion in public schools does not take away the right for anyone to choose what religion they want to follow.

        • MountainDewFan4

          No one wants to take away your choice to believe in God. You can believe in God, Thor or the tooth fairy if you want. JUST DON’T USE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL or the government to force those beliefs on everyone.

        • Lark62

          For clarification – I never want to see religious beliefs outlawed. Ever. Anywhere. Anytime. Every genocidal dictator – christian, muslim, atheist or other – criminalizes certain beliefs to maintain power.

          I personally hope for a variety of reasons that religious beliefs go the way of bell bottoms and leisure suits, but I will defend each person’s right to believe. Freedom of thought and freedom of religion are sacred. You had no way of knowing, but I find accusations that I would want to see government authority used to squelch religion highly offensive.

          I do not want to take away choice.

          When a school says “If you want to play football you will pray to the coach’s god.” “If you want to attend your own HS graduation you will listen to a prayer to the principal’s god. ” “If you attend a public elementary school you will spend every December singing songs about baby jesus.” Don’t all of those things take away choice?

          Freedom of religion means no one gets to use the government to pick one religion as the good one.

          • Homer for God

            No one ever forced them to pray. that’s their choice. My brother attended a private catholic high school. They have mass that was a requirement in the rules, but an unspoken rule. He choose not to attend opting to study in the hall instead. He was given that right. you no more required to bow your head with everyone who chooses to no more then your required to cheer for your home team or attend pep rallies. Prayer and faith are outspoken and it makes people uncomfortable, but they can choose to ignore it or make it a fuss.Unfortunately its the ladder. What Christians truly represent it the opposite reaction when we are uncomfortable with what we are made to hear. we take a nonviolent non spoken approach and give it to God. Let’s not split hairs on that last statement.

          • Lark62

            Prayer is talking to god in your head. If someone says a prayer over a loud speaker, how does that not cause every person hearing it to pray to that god?

            Your brother attended a private school. The policies there are not relevant. If my kids attended a religious school or camp or meeting, that would be our choice and I would expect them to behave politely.

            In a public school, school employees cannot lead prayers to their god. School employees cannot promote their religion. School employees cannot make some students outsiders or second class for not sharing the popular religious belief. Government authority cannot be used to set one religion up as the good one.

            We do not want government in the business of picking the right religious beliefs.

            Is this really that hard to understand?

          • Homer for God

            Considering you argue about separation of church and state but yet in the same breath support freedom of religion, speech and expression makes it hard to fathom
            My guess is that all of you were taught not to believe in faith and hope. You were taught to expect nothing when you die and that no one cares. You then hear that that is simply not true and discover that the voice that told you that is God through his chosen. You then see that it’s not fair that in order to have faith and follow the Lord, you have to follow what the word says. You can’t because you feel its not fair that same sex sex is not allowed or that you cant kill an unborn baby even if mom’s been raped or whatever is socially acceptable today that will not earn a trip to heaven in the end.. you start discovering other paths that lead away from God what you see is logical because some man 150 years ago said it to be true. Because you cannot physically see God or talk to him, doesn’t mean he’s not there. That’s where faith and hope comes in. You don’t want it or refuse to see God or acknowledge his existance, Great. I won’t judge you. But taking away that choice to believe in hope by taking God out of the schools is hateful and will be damaging in the long run to both future generations and society in general. I don’t need proof as it will unfold in front of your eyes. Just like revelation has predicted. God Bless

          • Lark62

            Separation of church and state is what gives us freedom of religion. They are inseparable. If someone can use govt authority to tell you when to pray or who to pray to, you aren’t free.

            I was a christian for decades. I became more hopeful and more peaceful when I finally realized that this is it. I get one chance to live a good life and leave the planet a bit better for me being here. No do overs. No mulligans.

            Now I wouldn’t trade reality for any fairy tale.

            Cheers

          • Homer for God

            Why would you want a do over anyway? I wouldn’t. If I did I would of never met my wife, and had a beautiful son and became stepparent to three more. I wouldn’t have a steady life had i not of relied on God instead of myself. I would be dead or in prison. God saved my life. He saved my wife’s life when she was close to death three times since birth. By learning that there is a new earth and new heaven awaits me after physical death and that this earth ( that was ruined by man’s sin no matter how many contributions they make), I have hope, and so do many millions of people out there. So let’s just agree to disagree ok? I will still love you and pray for you lark and I am sorry that you had to feel like you felt hopeless and knowledge of the hardships planned ahead for all of God’s people would deter you away from the wonderful rewards in the end. I live to spread the good word to whoever has ears to listen and I will die with that satisfaction that I was able to hopefully get to that one lost soul.

          • Lark62

            By do over I mean life after death.

            Whether I want to live on is irrelevant. There in no evidence for any of the eternities postulated by any religion.

            Good or bad, this is it. I do not feel hopeless. I love life and am very content.

            So here and now, let’s work together to make sure everyone’s kid can fully participate in public school without praying to someone else’s god. Let’s defend freedom of religion today.

  • LeftCoast

    Going after the kids again.

    • Paul Hiett

      Would you be as upset if the religion in question were Muslim? Judaism? Would you be against removing prayers of those religions from a school, or would you support those religions and their prayers in your childs public school if those religions were the majority?

      • LeftCoast

        I support all religions. I’ve taught my kids to bow their heads and respect all. And if it’s funny, laugh inside and we can clown on them at home.

        • Paul Hiett

          Is that something we should have in public schools though?

          • MountainDewFan4

            No it is not. Also, I like how you religious folk claim to be all Good and then you teach your children to laugh at people who do not believe the same things that you do (“we can clown on them at home”) Way to teach your kids discrimination and intolerance!

          • Paul Hiett

            “You religious folk…”

            Ummm, are you referring to me?

          • MountainDewFan4

            No, I was referring to LeftCoast and his comment about “we can clown on them at home”. Sory about that.

          • LeftCoast

            I’m laughing at you now. And yes, my kids and I like to laugh at craziness.

          • LeftCoast

            They all should know to show respect by staying silent or bow your head out of reverence.

          • Paul Hiett

            You didn’t answer the question. Should public schools have prayer in them?

          • Emmanuel

            Yes. If my son wants to pray for his food or before a test, go right ahead. If a student walks up to a teacher and asks for prayer, no problems. If a basketball team wants to pray before a game, yes. Let me be clear, if a Muslim does the same, go ahead. If a Mormon, a J witness and any other religion. if a child that is atheist wants a moment of silence or to think positive or relaxation technique, yes. If a school agrees to pray/relaxation after morning announcement, then yes. It can happen if everyone understands that no one is excluded.

          • MountainDewFan4

            What would be considered, “agrees to pray” ? Does that mean that 51% of the people agree to it and the others don’t matter?
            Does that mean every single person, teacher, administrator, janitor, that steps foot in that school agrees to it? What about new students?
            It’s irrelevant anyway, the best solution is to LEAVE RELIGION AT HOME and CHURCH.

    • MountainDewFan4

      Don’t you mean “Protecting the Kids again” ? What he wants is for meetings held in a public school to not start with a Prayer.

      This protects the children from being given the wrong information about religion(s).

      This protects the children from feeling out of place of they don’t exactly believe what the Prayer is saying.

      This protects the children from hearing things which should only be said in a Church or private location (such as a home).

      • LeftCoast

        Then have those kids step up, stand in line and then deliver whatever prayer they like.

        • MountainDewFan4

          I guess you don’t get it. Some people (getting close to 25% of the U.S.) do NOT HAVE ANY RELIGION. Therefore they do not feel that ANY prayer is appropriate!

          • LeftCoast

            Who ever said that a prayer is only a discussion with God? Yes, that is how I believe it. But, a child can go up to the microphone and have a dialogue/discussion with the board or express his/her concerns or feelings with the board. Prayer is used lightly here. ALL kids should stand in line and do their thing.

        • Jim H

          Would that include the following?

          “O Mighty Lord Satan, by whom all things are set free, I cast myself utterly into thine arms and place myself unreservedly under thy all powerful protection.

          Comfort me and deliver me from all of the hindrances and snares of those who wish to harm me, both seen and unseen.

          Visit justice and vengeance upon those who seek my destruction. Render them powerless and devastated. Direct their malice to return upon them tenfold and to destroy them who would resent my being.

          Fill my soul with thy invincible power, strengthen me, that I may persevere in my service, and act as an agent of thy works and a vessel of thy will.
          This I ask in your name, almighty and ineffable Lord Satan who liveth and reigneth forevermore.
          Ave Satanas”

          A Satanic prayer for protection.

          • Emmanuel

            Go right ahead. But dude, you know the atheists would be all over that kid? How dare he claim there is an evil being called Satan. The only evil one lives at 1600 Penn Ave.

          • Jim H

            Actually, I think most Satanist are, for all practical purposes, atheists and don’t actually believe in a real supernatural being called Satan. He is more symbolic in nature and primarily serves as a means to freak out Christians.

            I’m not sure about the 1600 Penn Ave, reference. Dick Chaney lived at the house on the southeast corner of 34th Street and Massachusetts Avenue in Washington DC like all vice president of the United States do. However, he moved out 5 years ago.

  • weasel1886

    Don’t these discussions get old?

    • Bobby Mae

      It’s how these websites survive. Funny right? Such a peaceful religion that digs and digs to stir the pot

      • smbelow

        Think of it as your morning alarm. You might not like it and are completely annoyed, however, you hear it because it’s informing you that you better wake up.

        Plus, you are posting on a Christian website. Don’t like the posts, move on.

        • Bobby Mae

          I’m not complaining, it’s a form of entertainment

        • Jim H

          “you are posting on a Christian website.”

          A quote from a conversation between Dr. McCoy and Spock in the original Star Trek series applies here:

          McCoy: “Now you’ll find yourself back among us illogical humans again.”

          Spock: Which I find eminently satisfactory, Doctor, for NOWHERE am I so DESPERATELY needed…”

    • smbelow

      Apparently not! You’re here.

  • sagat

    Atheists/humanists at it again jeez man

    • Paul Hiett

      Yeah, bunch of jerks trying to create equality for everyone in the public school systems that everyone’s tax dollars pay for.

      Such arrogance and intolerance!!!

    • MountainDewFan4

      Oh I have an idea. If religious people want prayers and stuff like that in their schools, maybe they should make schools of their own and send their kids to those schools.
      That way, religious concepts get taught to those religious people who want to be taught religious stuff (actually to the kids of parents who want their kids to learn religious stuff) and kids who prefer not to have religion shoved down their throats can go to public schools without having to worry about any type of religious prayers.

      • Deina

        I wonder why no one thought of that before?

      • LeftCoast

        Why don’t atheists get a school going so that its not a problem for those kids? I’m pretty sure you can find some big donors like Obama, Hilary, Pelosi, Hawkins and Dawkins.

        • Paul Hiett

          Or, why don’t religions build religious schools that support their faiths, and stay out of the tax payer funded public schools?

          Oh wait, such schools already exist, don’t they?

          • Emmanuel

            Then atheists can do the same. So why aren’t there any?

        • Lark62

          We have secular schools – they are called public schools.

          • Emmanuel

            It’s sad but that is true.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Why sad? Like it or not THIS IS A SECULAR NATION! So therefore we should have secular schools.

    • Nox

      yeah how dare they expect school to follow the law don’t they know that christianity is above that?

  • Peter Leh

    if the district can show the invocation is open to all then the humanist has no chance in court.

    • Paul Hiett

      Do you really think the board opens up prayer for any religion?

      • Peter Leh

        if they don;t theyn the board is liable and there indeed is merit to the lawsuit.

        otherwise it is just bitching on the plaintiffs part.

        anyone can file a lawsuit.

    • Lark62

      That rule applies to city councils. It hasn’t been tested but schools are held to stricter standard.

      • Peter Leh

        maybe. teh school is a government entity just the same. schools can rent their facility to religious groups as long as all have the opportunity, so i think this is being consistent .

        but we will see.

  • Jim H

    Why not just propose a moment of silence. They could say a prayer, meditate, gather their thoughts for the day, or just think about what the girl next to them looks like naked.

  • David Springer

    The question I have is if democracy offends you, shall we stop being a democracy? If my wearing a wedding ring offends you, shall we ban marriages? Wedding bells ring everyday in America, if the sounds of these bells offend you as much as the bells of church on Sunday morning, or the prayers offered by Christian’s at prayers times, do we stop them just because you entered the room? Do we stop eating at dinner because you don’t like what’s on the table? I think not. To cater to this person or organization is not causing problems with the freedoms the Constitution. Frankly, he looks to me like a child who is throwing a temper tantrum. The Problem is the young man’s, not the school’s, or religion. If he is that insecure over his own prayers or lack of his decision not to pray that he cannot tolerate other’s ways of life, he hasn’t learned the basics of growing up. The humanist organization isn’t so much interested in “equal rights” as it is subverting social standards that don’t fit their own values or values they see as best. Wars have been started over clashing values.

    • MountainDewFan4

      It’s not about what ONE person does or doesn’t like. It’s about the government staying out of religion. The Constitution of this country dictates through the Establishment Clause that the government shall not endorse any religion. You can argue all you want about whether or not that what it means, but the point is that is currently how the SCOTUS interpret the Clause.

      Therefore the government, or anyone acting on behalf of the government, such as school officials, CAN NOT endorse one religion over another, or over non-religion. Saying a Christian prayer before a school activity is doing just that !

      This is unconstitutional and needs to be stopped!

    • Lark62

      This is not about being offended. It is about people misusing govt authority.

      It doesn’t matter what i think about wedding rings. It doesn’t matter if you wear one. But if you say “I believe in wedding rings so I am going to use the authority of govt to make YOU wear one” we would have a problem.

      I don’t mind christian crosses on people or private property. I don’t care if you put a 10 foot nativity scene on your front lawn. I would have a serious problem if you tried to put a nativity scene in my yard. Do you see the difference? Location, location, location.

      I object to the misuse of government land and resources to display the tokens of one religion. I object to the misuse of govt authority to cause other people to participate in prayers to your god.

  • Richard

    The more we take God out of our society, the more he takes his hands off the country. If you think that’s okay, look at Israel. Once the most powerful nation on earth, now prisoners in their own land.

    God doesn’t change…people do…to their own detriment.

    Non believers in America (and other countries) today don’t realize the implications of removing God because they don’t believe in him. They live in free countries BECAUSE of God’s protection. Remove his protection and provision, and that freedom will likely change. Once changed, it will require returning to God to reverse.

    America (and other Christian countries) are at a crossroads. Return to God and remain prosperous and protected, or reject God and become a victim of other countries. Think not? China owns much of America’s debt. They are also becoming the most powerful nation on earth. If we don’t stop removing God, don’t be surprised when America falls and China (or any other upcoming super power) becomes the most powerful nation on earth.

    History repeats itself because people have a short memory and don’t learn from past mistakes.

    God always allows people to experience the consequences of their unrepentant actions. It’s never if, but always when.

    • Paul Hiett

      Actually, I think we have learned from our mistakes, which is why belief in religion is shrinking, here in the US.

      • Richard

        > think we have learned from our mistakes

        Your comments, hypocrisy, and behavior demonstrate clearly you haven’t learned anything.

        People fall away from God, not because God isn’t real, but because people love their evil desires.

        • MountainDewFan4

          is that why people don’t believe in Santa Claus too?

          No, people fall away from god because religious people keep saying how “wonderful” he is and how much he will “help” you and “answer” your prayers…. and then when their prayers aren’t answered, they just state, “he works in mysterious ways” or “he always answers prayers, just not always in the way you think he does”.
          How many times can someone listen to this crap before they realize … “Hey, iI know why god doesn’t answer me, because he doesn’t exist!”

          • MountainDewFan4

            Additionally, people fall away from god because they actually start to think intelligently about all of this god stuff an realize that there is no possible way that any of it could be true (kinda like Santa).

          • Richard

            Equating God and santa claus shows you haven’t thought about God intelligently. That is a common problem with non believers: they have little understanding of that which they seek to criticize.

            As I said earlier, that is a ‘you’ problem, not a God problem.

          • Paul Hiett

            Both have as much evidence to support their existence.

          • Richard

            You are a proven hypocrite and liar. You have no room to talk.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’ve never lied on here. Not once. Ever.

          • Richard

            I caught you in a number of lies. And so have others. You are a proven liar. You don’t deserve a response.

          • Paul Hiett

            LOL…sorry Richard, but that’s imply not true. I would never willingly lie on here. I have no need to. The truth is far more fun.

            Of course, I openly welcome you to quote one of my “lies” if you can. Knowing you can’t, I’ll await your apology that we all know will never come because you have no interest in being “Christ-like”, do you?

          • Richard

            Your are a hypocrite and liar. You deserve nothing from me.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then by all means, quote one of my lies. Should be easy.

            Unless the one who is actually lying isn’t me. Hmmm….

          • Richard

            My conversation with you is done!

          • Paul Hiett

            So cute. Throw out lies, throw out insults, then run from the playground.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Anyone who says something that he disagrees with, he considers to be a liar. Again very similar to an 8 year old boy who was just told that Santa doesn’t exist.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yep, par for the course for him.

          • MountainDewFan4

            No, actually I HAVE thought about god intelligently, that’s why I know that he DOES NOT exist!

            Studies have been made that show, the higher degree of education people have the less they believe in god. This goes to show that the more intelligent people are .. the more they realize that god is just a myth, nothing people claim he did or can do is possible. NOTHING.

          • Richard

            > I HAVE thought about god intelligently, that’s why I know that he DOES NOT exist!

            I hear that from most non believers…which shows they haven’t thought about it intelligently at all.

            For example, what is your hard proof God doesn’t exist? You believe it so fervently, you should have some good reasons and evidence. Do you?

            > the higher degree of education people have the less they believe in god.

            That’s not true. There is research to the contrary.

            > This goes to show that the more intelligent people are .. the more they realize that god is just a myth, nothing people claim he did or can do is possible.

            That’s a joke.

            Unless you can prove God doesn’t exist. Can you? Using your superior intellect, that should be easy for you?

          • MountainDewFan4

            What is you hard proof that god DOES EXIST???????????????

            These are from a 2013 Harris poll.
            Beleif in god based on Education
            High school or less 60%
            Some college 55%
            College graduate 48%
            Post graduate 37%

          • Richard

            You said God and satan don’t exist. Where’s your proof?

            You claim to be intellectual, yet you haven’t provided any proof yet, just opinion and a strawman argument.

            Can you prove your assertions?

          • MountainDewFan4

            This is getting tiresome. As soon as you
            a) prove that god does exist or
            b) prove that my invisible pink bunny friend does not exist,
            then I will prove that god does not exist.

            UNTIL THEN, STOP ASKING ME TO PROVE THAT GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

          • Richard

            You are the one that claimed God doesn’t exist. I asked you to prove your assertion. But you haven’t.

            All you’ve done is dance around the question. I’ll take that to mean you can’t. It appears you aren’t as intellectual as you assumed.

          • MountainDewFan4

            NO ONE. Not just me, NO ONE can prove a negative unless they are omniscient. I may be intelligent, but unfortunately I fall just short of omniscient 😉

          • Richard

            Again, your mistake is equating God to a negative. That is an illogical comparison. The fault is yours.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Huh?

          • Richard

            > Huh?

            As I suspected, you have no idea why your ‘negative’ argument is a strawman. Figure that out and we can continue.

          • MountainDewFan4

            You said that I was equating God to a negative. I’m not sure what you mean by that.

            Anyway, I find it very amusing that you KEEP asking us to prove that god does not exist, and then conveniently sidestep our questions to you to prove that god does exist, or to prove that Zeus does not exist. All you can seem to say is that since we can not prove that god does not exist therefore he is real.

            Here is Richard logic:
            MountainDewFan4 can not prove that god does not exist, therefore god exists!
            Paul Hiett can not prove that Leprechauns exist, therefor Leprechauns exist.
            Richard can not prove that Zeus does not exist, therefore, Zeus exists.
            SomeOneElse can not prove that Superman does not exist, therefore … SUPERMAN EXISTS TOO!

            In fact … using this logic…. EVERYTHING that anyone can think of suddenly exists!!!! YAY!

            Great logic Richard.

          • Richard

            Your comments demonstrate you have little understanding of God. That is a ‘you’ issue not a God issue.

            If you really wanted a good answer, you’d spend time learning about God and the reasons he acts the way he does. It’s only a mystery to someone who doesn’t know him.

          • MountainDewFan4

            There are not REASONS, there are only made up excuses to make yourselves feel like god really does exist.

            Seriously think about it …. when god doesn’t come through for you…. what do you do? You start rationalizing why he didn’t do this or that. When a child gets murdered, you rationalize, “god has plans for her”, or “Satan won out over god this time” … or whatever instead of facing the HARSH REALITY that there is no god and stuff just happens because it happens!

          • Richard

            > There are not REASONS, there are only made up excuses to make yourselves feel like god really does exist

            There are many reasons God doesn’t answer prayer. If you knew him, you’d know the reasons. Just because you don’t know them doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

            You keep saying there is no God. Can you prove your assertion?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Of course you can not prove a negative. Can you prove that Zeus doesn’t exist? Can you prove that unicorns don’t exist? Can you prove that I don’t have an invisible pink bunny sitting on my desk? Of course not. HOWEVER, I bet you KNOW that none of those things exist don’t you? You just simply KNOW that invisible pink bunnies do not exist, right?
            Well, that’s how I feel about god.

          • Richard

            > Of course you can not prove a negative.

            That’s a strawman argument, the same as equating a real God to a fictional character. How about something real?

            You claim God isn’t real, you should be able to prove it. Can you?

          • MountainDewFan4

            You claim that my invisible pink bunny isn’t real .. You should be able to prove it. Can You?

          • Richard

            That’s another strawman argument. It’s illogical…which is why it’s tripping you up.

            How about some real proof? You claim to be intellectual, yet you haven’t provided any real evidence. Can you?

          • MountainDewFan4

            OK. Let me say this again. NO ONE CAN PROVE A NEGATIVE!!

            All I can do is to tell you that ALL of the claims about god are impossible.
            No invisible beings can exist, none.
            No entities which supposedly exist outside of this dimension can affect things in this dimension.
            Nothing can possibly exist which can hear people’s thoughts.

            I could go on and on.

          • Richard

            > NO ONE CAN PROVE A NEGATIVE!!

            You keep saying that, but your premise is wrong. That’s why it is a strawman argument. For someone who professes to be intelligent, you should know this.

            How about some real proof. Do you have any?

          • MountainDewFan4

            The person making a negative claim cannot logically prove nonexistence. And here’s why: to know that a X does not exist would require a perfect knowledge of all things (omniscience). To attain this knowledge would require simultaneous access to all parts of the world and beyond (omnipresence). Therefore, to be certain of the claim that X does not exist one would have to possess abilities that are non-existent. Obviously, mankind’s limited nature precludes these special abilities. The claim that X does not exist is therefore unjustifiable. As logician Mortimer Adler has pointed out, the attempt to prove a universal negative is a self- defeating proposition. These claims are “worldwide existential negatives.” They are only a small class of all possible negatives. They cannot be established by direct observation because no single human observer can cover the whole earth at one time in order to declare by personal authority that any “X” doesn’t exist.

          • Richard

            For someone who professes to be intelligent, you completely miss the mark on this issue. You aren’t disproving a negative, but disproving the reality of God. God has already been established as real throughout Jewish history, Christian history, and the historical record. Equating God to a negative is your mistake.

            Try again.

            You said God doesn’t exist. You should be able to prove it. Can you?

          • MountainDewFan4

            You say that he does exist YOU should be able to prove it? Can you?

          • Richard

            You are the one who claimed God doesn’t exist. You need to prove your claim.

            By your lack of a reasoned answer, I’ll conclude you cant.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Extraordinary claims (such as god exists) require extraordinary proof.

          • Richard

            Still no proof. That means you don’t have any.

            There is extraordinary evidence to support the belief that God is real, however. Obviously, the same can’t be said for disproving God.

            I’m glad you are aware of that now.

          • Paul Hiett

            And likewise, you can’t disprove the existence of Odin, can you?

            Glad you’re are aware of that now!

          • Paul Hiett

            Ask him to then prove that Odin (or any other deity) does not exist. He’ll flip the conversation on you at that point. It’s hilarious.

    • MountainDewFan4

      How exactly is god Protecting America?
      Did he stop planes from flying into the Twin Towers?
      Does he feed the hungry?
      Does he end violence?
      Does he prevent greed and corruption?
      Does he remove drugs or guns?
      Does he stop people from being raped?

      What EXACTLY does god do to protect America??????

      • Richard

        > Did he stop planes from flying into the Twin Towers?

        He provided the means to prevent other attacks.

        > Does he feed the hungry?

        He provided sufficient provision to feed the poor. But many people don’t like sharing, such as non believers…which are the least generous on earth.

        > Does he end violence?

        God allows free will. Violence would end if people trusted in God rather than following through on their selfish and evil desires. God hasn’t judged sin yet, so he allows our evil choices.

        > Does he prevent greed and corruption?

        Similar to above.

        > Does he remove drugs or guns?

        Similar to above.

        > Does he stop people from being raped?

        If people trusted in God, evil wouldn’t flourish. It does because God hasn’t judged sin yet, which means he allows free will and the evil choices of people.

        If you want to be angry with someone, be angry with satan. It is his influence that is causing all of the ills you mentioned. Without God, people are helpless to his influence.

        America became the most powerful nation on earth because most Americans at that time followed God and asked for his guidance. As that stops, so is America’s affluence and protection.

        • MountainDewFan4

          “He provided the means to prevent other attacks”???

          Really? How does that work. Oh, so I see god said .. I have the ability to prevent these planes from crashing into those buildings, but ya know what … I’m just going to let those 5,000 people die and countless others to suffer, because I think it will prevent other attacks”…. Yeah that’s real good logic.

          If someone broke into your house and wanted to kill one of your children, I assume you would let them because then you’d be able to prevent future break ins???????????

          “non believers…which are the least generous on earth.”

          Do you have proof of that? Bill Gates, one of the wealthiest men on the planet, and an ATHEIST gives MILLLIONS of dollars to charity EVERY YEAR!

          If people trusted in God, evil wouldn’t flourish. It does because God hasn’t judged sin yet, which means he allows free will and the evil choices of people.

          This only makes sense to religious people. “God hasn’t judged sin yet”? WHAT? How about “God is incapable of preventing these types of things, because he doesn’t exist”.

          be angry with satan

          Satan doesn’t exist either!

          • Richard

            > Really? How does that work.

            God provides people willing to do his work, the resources to follow through, and the ongoing reassurance to ensure it gets done.

            > Do you have proof of that?

            Check the statistics for yourself. You’ll find that the most generous people on earth are the religious. That’s even in consideration of wealthy non believers.

            > God is incapable of preventing these types of things, because he doesn’t exist”

            As I said earlier, your comments show you have no knowledge of what you criticize. That is a ‘you’ problem not a God problem.

            You said God doesn’t exist and Satan doesn’t exist. Can you prove your assertions, since you consider yourself intellectual?

          • MountainDewFan4

            God provides people willing to do his work, the resources to follow through, and the ongoing reassurance to ensure it gets done.

            This is always the argument that religious people use. “Free Will”. When anything bad happens, it’s because god gave us free will. However, the second that something good happens, it’s because god stepped in and saved the day.

            If god can not prevent people from being raped, then he also CAN NOT cure someone’s cancer. He CAN NOT save someone from jumping off a building. He CAN NOT provide food to the hungry.

            You can’t have it both ways … either he is capable of helping people in which case he should ALWAYS help people, or he is NOT capable of helping people, in which case he should NEVER be given credit for helping people … but of course you religious folks can’t have that… nope…. your god does all the good stuff … and the bad stuff … we’ll just call that … um … free will.

          • Richard

            > If god can not prevent people from being raped, then he also CAN NOT cure someone’s cancer. He CAN NOT save someone from jumping off a building. He CAN NOT provide food to the hungry.

            God does many thing for people who believe and trust in him. He has done countless miracles for me and my family over the years.

            But he usually doesn’t do anything for those that reject him. Why should he?

          • MountainDewFan4

            How many of those countless miracles do you think would have happened if you didn’t believe in god? I’m willing to bet ALL OF THEM!

          • Richard

            None of them. To assume otherwise again demonstrates you have no knowledge of what you are criticizing.

            It’s not that non believers are more intelligent, but that they don’t know much about God…so they think they are intelligent.

          • MountainDewFan4

            I have seen several stories of someone who is in a coma for years and then suddenly wakes up, and the family claims that “God saved him because we prayed”.

            Of course you don’t see the millions of times the same exact thing happens and people say, “Well we didn’t pray, but she got better”, because it’s not newsworthy.

          • Richard

            You continue to display your lack of knowledge on this subject. All you’ve done so far is express your unfounded opinions. But opinions aren’t facts. Do you have any facts to disprove the reality of God? Anything?

          • MountainDewFan4

            MY opinions AND the opinions of about 1 million of the most worlds most esteemed scientists … oh but they don’t count I guess.

          • Richard

            You come across as a person who really hasn’t considered God. Your arguments are gross generalizations, and not factually based.

            Did you know there are many scientists who also believe in God?

            Did you know science can’t disprove God?

          • MountainDewFan4

            There are a small percentage who do, yes. However, in most countries the percentage is very small.

          • Richard

            No it isn’t. If you actually check, you’ll see that it’s almost 50/50. Be sure to include all sciences.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s actually about 33% that actually believe in “God”. Another 18% believe in a “higher power”, but not “God”.

          • Richard

            If you actually check, you’ll see that there are far more believers than non believers in the sciences.

          • Paul Hiett

            I go by the facts, nothing more. 51% believe in God/higher power, while 41% are atheist. 8% consider themselves agnostic. Either way, your claim that less than 2% are atheists is clearly not accurate.

          • Richard

            Those are your skewed numbers. I gave you links to summaries that disprove the ‘faulty’ research you are drawing from.

            Here’s a quote from one of the links I gave you:

            “A study of 642 elite scientists limited their survey to only those born in America. Only 1.4% “listed themselves as atheists or agnostics.”

            You would do well to apologize to me for saying I was lying. But I won’t hold my breath.

          • Paul Hiett

            You gave me a link to a “study” from 1966. Want to try again? You might not be aware, but it’s now the year 2015, and there are many more relevant studies available…the ones that prove your assertion wrong.

            I’ll go with the more recent, pertinent studies.

          • Richard

            > a “study” from 1966

            Which are you referring to?

            How did you miss the fact that both links I gave were published in 2013 and 2014?

            Besides, in all of these months I’ve been at this forum, you have not provided one piece of evidence that proves God doesn’t exist. That should tell you something.

            Strawman arguments and asserted opinions aren’t evidence.

            Even your like-minded commenter didn’t have any evidence to prove God isn’t real. NO ONE has any evidence to disprove the reality of God.

            But you both have great faith in your unproven assertions. It’s going to be a long eternity for you two if you don’t come to Christ.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ever wonder what those little numbers next to sentences mean? You might want to scroll down the page and read the footnotes.

            Yes Richard, 1966.

            And for the record, you haven’t provided any evidence that Odin doesn’t exist either.

          • Richard

            You do realize the research is a summary of research, right? Summary means a total of many pieces of research.

            We’ve had this conversation and it always ends badly for you. Unless you believe Odin is real. Do you?

          • Paul Hiett

            Richard, the study is from 1966!!!!!!! Look it up!

            Also, it doesn’t matter what anyone believes. Can you prove Odin is not real as you claim we can’t prove God is not real?

            Yes or no?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Of course Paul’s numbers are skewed, and yours are not.

          • Richard

            That’s correct. I’m glad you realize that.

          • Richard

            A recent evaluation of studies of scientists finds that most scientists believe in God, very few don’t. In fact, less than 2 percent of scientists are atheists.

          • Paul Hiett

            Well, other than the fact that you’re obviously very, very wrong (a simple Google search would have helped you), you’re absolutely right.

            You’re so cute when you’re lying.

          • Richard

            Paul, you should search more than one study. Here are a couple of links to help you out:

            randalrauser dot com/2013/06/are-top-scientists-overwhelmingly-atheists/

            http://www.christianitytoday dot com/ct/2014/february-web-only/study-2-million-scientists-identify-as-evangelical.html?start=1

          • MountainDewFan4

            Gee Christianity Today … no that site wouldn’t stretch the truth about how many people believe in god.

          • Richard

            What are you doing visiting this website then?

          • MountainDewFan4

            Please post a link to where you get your stats from. (Non Christian website only please.)

          • Joe Soap

            Can’t disprove the existence of Allah, Vishnu, Odin, either. Does that mean that these gods actually exists?

        • MountainDewFan4

          He provided sufficient provision to feed the poor.

          REALLY? REALLY? Is that why OVER 3 MILLION CHILDREN DIE EACH YEAR FROM HUNGER?????
          Because he provides sufficient provisions? You want to rethink that one?

          • Richard

            > VER 3 MILLION CHILDREN DIE EACH YEAR FROM HUNGER?????

            No. God has provided enough, but people don’t want to share.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Provided ENOUGH?????? Do you know how much food there is in Ethiopia??? There is NOT ENOUGH FOOD to feed everyone!

            god really screwed up that one.

          • Richard

            Did you know there is more than enough to go around…but people aren’t willing to share because of their evilness. This is a demonstration of people without God. That is the world you can look forward to when you reject God.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Really? And you personally know all of these people in Ethiopia who have stockpiles of food who are unwilling to share because they are evil and godless. Or are you just kind of twisting the facts to make them sound better??? Be an Honest Christian here and answer HONESTLY!

          • Richard

            There are over 1500 billionaires. One billion would be enough to feed the hungry. Yet, they aren’t being fed. If you have an issue with that, talk with the billionaires.

            God lets us use our free will as we see fit. Until he judges sin, evil will exist.

          • MountainDewFan4

            How many of those billionaires are Christian? Hmmmm?

          • Richard

            What’s your point?

            As a Christian, we know that money is not ours but to be used for the betterment of mankind in the manner that God asks of us.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you’re living in a card board box and giving all your money to those who need it?

          • MountainDewFan4

            So therefore the Billionaire Christians should be feeding the hungry, but they are not.
            So you just negated your own assertion that believers are more likely to give to charity.

          • Richard

            Of course they are feeding the hungry, and many times over. Why do you think there are so many non profit Christian organizations working throughout the world in response to disasters, and world need?

            Your logic if faulty. This may be the reasons you don’t believe in God.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Do you give ALL of your money to feed the hungry?

          • Richard

            No, but I do my part. God seldom asks us to give everything we own, since we need it to live. But he does ask us to give out of the abundance of what he provides.

            Are you doing your part?

          • Deina

            You must have overlooked this, Dick:

            Luke 18:22-25 | New American Standard Bible (NASB)
            {22}When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” {23}But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. {24}And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! {25}For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

  • FoJC_Forever

    The ranting and raving unbelievers and false Christians continue to troll the site with some of the most irrelevant arguments I have ever read. While I don’t believe public prayers carry any spiritual weight with God, the complaining atheists don’t care about that reality; they simply want religious people to quit publicly practicing their religion.

    Trolls are internet terrorists using their access and words to harass people who visit and comment on Christian sites.

    • MountainDewFan4

      To clarify, atheists DO NOT want you to stop publicly praying. You can pray at a bus stop, you can pray at the mall if you wish, 500 of you can pray together in a public park while watching pigeons. That all is fine.

      What we want is for Government run institutions to remain secular and neutral. Town halls, court buildings, and especially public schools, should not promote any type of religious beliefs. That is all that we are asking. They should NOT have pictures of Jesus on the wall of my court house. There should not be a huge cross in the middle of the town green. There should not be a sign that says “God Does Not Exist” over the principals desk at my public school. There should be nothing one way or the other IN A GOVERNMENT INSTITUTION which promotes or endorses a particular religious belief.

      • FoJC_Forever

        If it’s your courthouse, it’s also mine. If I want a plaque of the 10 Commandments on the wall of “my courthouse” (using your terminology), then I have as much right as you do. Since the plaque won’t hurt anything or anyone, but it will remind people to be moral and not hurt their neighbors, it’s a good thing.

        You are a victim of your own argument, but you fail to see this reality. You want people to be forced to practice non-religion, which is a form of religious belief. Your logic is moronic.

        • MountainDewFan4

          You can not have ANYTHING YOU WANT just because you want it. If you wanted a poster of two people having sex on the courthouse wall, I’m sure that would not be allowed.

          See there are these things called Laws which are put in place to protect Americans. These Laws do not allow you to put Just ANYTHING on the walls of a courthouse. The government, through the Establishment Clause, can not endorse one religion over another. IT’S THAT SIMPLE. No moronic logic. Just FACTS!

          • Paul Hiett

            “Facts” and “religion” never go hand in hand.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Exactly, you shouldn’t be able to have anything you want just because you want it.

            You need to read the Clause, not misquote it.

          • MountainDewFan4

            It is not a matter of what WE want. It’s a matter the little document called the U.S. Constitution and the interpretation of that constitution by the Supreme Court of the United States.
            Their interpretation of the Establishment clause is currently this: The First Amendment’s Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion.

            When YOU get to become a member of the SCOTUS, then you can interpret it as “I can do whatever I want”. Until then, THIS is what needs to be followed.

        • tyler

          your comment is far too stupid to even respond to.

      • FoJC_Forever

        You are stating an inaccuracy about what atheists want concerning religious expression. But, that’s expected.

        • MountainDewFan4

          Hmmm. I am an atheist. I know many, many atheists including my entire family. But …. it is YOU that knows what atheists want?

          Please show one time where an atheists wanted public prayer stopped WHICH WAS NOT ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY?

          • FoJC_Forever

            You speak volumes about what they want. Your wretched tirades are simply the norm for atheists. Atheists are angry little people tied up in fits because God won’t cease to exist.

            Judgement is coming.

          • Toaster

            You need a quick language lesson. When you put an “A” in front of a word, it means “without” or “non”. Thus, atheoretical is without a theory. Amazon (the mythical tribe) is ‘without a breast’. Atheism is ‘without theism’. In other words, an atheist is a non theist, Nothing more (sorry)

          • FoJC_Forever

            I understand what the word means. Religious Belief, in the context of laws governing or addressing such, can either be NON(against, without)-religious belief or be PRO(for, possessing)-religious belief.

          • Toaster

            Although there are some anti-theists out there, I don’t think that the majority of atheists are anti-religion. For the most part, my atheist and theist friends get along just fine. The irritating thing is the imposition of religion on public life. This is where the backlash is originating. For example, swearing on a Bible, or ‘so help me God’ is offensive.

            It is also hugely offensive to hear the Christians say that they are being ‘persecuted’ for their beliefs. Forming reasonable boundaries is not persecution.

          • MountainDewFan4

            Atheists are mistreated, hated and discriminated against simply because they do not happen to believe in the same invisible being that you do. That is why we feel a little upset every once in a while.
            This country is supposed to treat everyone EQUALLY. However, what really happens is that Christians are treated equally and everyone is treated like dirt.

          • tyler

            wow, I’m so scared that you’re threatening judgement..
            so scared

        • Paul Hiett

          No, he absolutely nailed it.

        • tyler

          Did you know that there’s not exactly one type of atheist? Just as there’s not exactly one type of Christian.
          Different atheists want different things. I’m an atheist as well, and I agree exactly with what @MountainDewFan4:disqus said. I know that there are some atheists that are more extreme, and want religion eradicated. That’s not me. that’s not everyone.
          I’d suggestion you not try to speak on behalf of a group of people and use ridiculous stereotypes.

  • Rosanne Young

    I have been reading all of the comments. I don’t believe any of us have the right to judge another person’s personal choice of religions. I am Christian, I made that choice 40 years ago, but I have never argued or tried to convert anyone to Christianity. We all make our own personal choice..I, for one, respect all peoples right to choose…to me its “free will.”

    • MountainDewFan4

      I personally am not judging your choice of religion. I happen to not feel the same way as you, but that doesn’t mean that I want you to change your beliefs.

      What I do want however, is for you (that’s the plural “you” meaning all religious people) to start to realize that not everyone in this country shares your beliefs.

      Not everyone in this country is comfortable with a Christian prayer being said before a Public School meeting. Not everyone in this country wants a photo of Jesus on the wall of a court house.

      Just be fair, and keep you religious ideas and concepts out of the laws, out of the public court houses, and especially out of the schools.