Church-State Separation Group Pressures Public School to Cancel Field Trip to Creation Museum

MuseumGLENDIVE, Mont. — Public school officials in Montana recently canceled a field trip to a local creation museum after a prominent church-state separation group threatened to file suit.

Approximately 100 third graders from Lincoln Elementary School in Glendive were scheduled to visit the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum on Thursday as they have done for the past seven years. The museum is stated to be the second largest in the state and contains “more than 23 full-size dinosaurs, numerous individual fossils and artifacts, informative exhibits explaining the origin of the geologic column and fossil record,” as well as a variety of other archaeological and historical displays.

Permission slips had been sent home to parents to allow their children to go on the trip.

But because the museum is operated by the Christian group Foundation Advancing Creation Truth (FACT) and puts forth a biblical worldview about creation, the church-state separation group Americans United for Separation of Church and State (AU) sought to put an end to the trip. It sent a letter to school officials earlier this month asserting that it would be illegal for a public school to send children to the museum.

“We write to inform you that a school-sponsored trip to a creationist museum violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and ask that you cancel all such future trips,” it wrote.

“[The courts have] consistently and unequivocally held that religious views on the origins of life, such as creationism, ‘creation science,’ and ‘intelligent design,’ cannot lawfully be advanced by the public schools as alternatives to the scientific theory of evolution,” the letter continued.

But Principal John Larsen told reporters that it was his understanding that the museum put on a secular presentation for public school students that is void of any mention of creation or religion. Robert Canen, vice president of FACT, made similar statements to the Christian Post.

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“While our museum is based on biblical history and all of our exhibits are set in that context, we provide a tour that focuses on the fossils displayed in the museum and the characteristics of those fossils,” he said.

“We mention complexity and design, but we stay away from any discussion of the Bible for public school tours,” Canen continued. “We understand that our signage refers to special creation and the biblical timeline, but we don’t draw attention to those signs for public school tours.”

However, because Larsen was concerned that the school might be leveled with a lawsuit over the matter, he and others decided to cancel the field trip to the museum.

“I believed we were facing legal action if we did follow through with the trip,” he told the Ranger Review.

Larsen said that he contacted an attorney with AU, who told him that the school would end up in court over the matter if it moved forward with the visit.

Therefore, he sent a letter home to parents advising that the field trip to the Glendive Dinosaur and Fossil Museum would have to be canceled.

“Apparently, a few disgruntled individuals in our community have precedence over your permission for your child to attend,” the letter read. “Big city issues have come to Glendive.”

But following receipt of the letter, a number of parents met last week with Superintendent Ross Farber and explained that their children were upset over the cancellation.

“My daughter came home in tears,” parent Melissa Marley told the Grand Forks Herald. “This is something they worked for all year. This is the only real field trip they go on.”

She said that one of her other children visited the museum with her class last year and Christianity was never mentioned.

“There’s no talk of creation; there’s no talk of God. It’s strictly about the dinosaurs,” Marley explained.

Kathy Cross said that her son was “distraught” after she broke the news to him that the school canceled the trip to the museum.

“Trying to explain that to a nine year old is really hard,” she stated.

Cross and Marley were among a group of parents who consequently organized their own field trip to the museum—on the same afternoon that it had been planned with the school—and took their children out of class to do so.


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  • SFBruce

    I hope conservatives will avoid the temptation to condemn all LGBT people based on the these allegations, which, if true, are reprehensible. One person’s bad actions shouldn’t condemn all gay people any more than Dennis Hastert’s problems should condemn all conservatives.

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      The problem with this reasoning is that there just have been literally hundreds of examples of this kind of thing in the last few years alone. The Gay Rights Movement is anything but a live and let live effort. It is not enough to just agree to disagree: if one does not affirm the lifestyle (homosexual behavior), then the power of the state is being brought down on dissenters.

      I agree 100% with you that this is not indicative of the majority of LGBT people, because the fact remains that the majority of folks who are engaging in homofascism are arguably atheists and feminists – although there is an overlap among these 3 categories. Nevertheless, it would be willful ignorance to conclude that this kind of intolerance by the “tolerant” ones does not exist. It crops up every few days on sites like this and others, including the recent story about “forcing” churches to take homosexual behavior off of their sin list. At some point in any analysis there is sufficient data. We long ago reached that point.

      • Thisoldspouse

        The vast majority of sexual anarchists (I refuse to humor them with their fake “LGBT” moniker) are COMPLETELY SILENT about these instances of homoFascism. That should tell us something about how they regard them.

        Silence is assent.

      • SFBruce

        You can’t just refer to “literally hundreds of examples of this kind of thing” and “At some point in any analysis there is sufficient data,” and expect to be credible. An abundance of anecdotes may suggest more rigorous analysis, but you certainly haven’t provided any beyond those sweeping generalizations. It may seem to you that this happens often, but I certainly don’t see it. When it does, I find it abhorrent, in part, because there’s plenty of real injustice going on. There’s simply no need to make it up, inviting the kind of scorn this particular incident deserves.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          I provided 300 examples numerous times on this website – here they are again (just take the space out):

          http://barbwire .com/2014/07/07/300-examples-read-understand-meant-term-homofascism/

          “It may seem to you that this happens often, but I certainly don’t see it.”

          You are free to live in denial, if you so desire. But, the fact remains that these cases plus a number of cases in the UK and recently in the US of people publicly stating that Christians and churches should be forced to affirm homosexual behavior shows either willful ignorance on your part or outright denial. The cases are all different – but the fact is that the Gay “Rights” Movement is more KKK than MLK. “Participate in my gay ‘wedding’ or else!” is nothing new – to those in the UK, Canada, or the US.

          It’s gotten so bad that even gays are calling the Gaystapo out on their bullying tactics. And, of course, studies are being faked to make gays feel better about themselves.

  • weasel1886

    So when do you start killing them ?

    • GibbyD

      That was what God commanded under the law for his people Israel in the OLD Testament. We are in the New Testament now . The LORD will judge His people and also will damn those forever in hell that reject His loving provision for their sin. Today ,believers are commanded to proclaim the Gospel and pray that God will use that message to save then from everlasting death and hell. Nowhere are Christians told to take out vengeance on others or harm them. We pray for them and hope that they will repent toward God and trust in Christ .

      • Josey

        Amen and hell is a place where the worm does not die and the soul is forever separated from God’s love and care where there will be gnashing of teeth, an eternity of darkness.

    • bowie1

      The Lord will take care of it when he returns to judge all people.

      • weasel1886

        The more i read comments on this board the more I fear Christian thought

        • StereoMan

          That’s all the Lord wants to do – judge us, beat us up, and torture us.

          • Angel Jabbins

            Not so. He came to earth, lived a sinless life on our behalf, became the sacrifice for our sin on the cross where He took our punishment….so He wouldn’t have to judge us. He put all of our sin on Christ and judged Him instead. What a loving God to die for people who hate Him….and still hate Him.

            So, you see, we don’t have to be punished for our sins at all now that Jesus has come. All God requires is that we admit we are sinners, forsake our sinful ways, and trust in Christ alone for salvation. It is so simple a child can understand and do that. But people are full of pride. They do not want to be told what to do or that they are sinners in need of a Savior. They want to thumb their noses at God and He will allow you to do that….for now. But He is the Judge of the whole earth, the Maker and Creator of all things. He gets to decide what to do with you on judgment day if all your life you refused His gracious free gift of salvation. A day of reckoning must come. You can’t insult the President of the United States without consequences. It is a much bigger offense to sin against the God of the entire universe.

  • Nadine Faber

    This is what is going to happen here…you cannot go against same sex with biblical principles or speech…they no longer have freedom of speech or religion …. Churches, charities and organizations will be taken to court, accused of “hate speech” if traditional marriage is changed by the Supreme Court. This movement will be successful … this Country will even see a further decline in the standard of living, government will be dictating our rights and freedoms…indoctrination of our young will be unstoppable …. parents won’t have rights, Christianity will be driven underground again… the moral compass of society will disappear…sexual abuse of children will be condoned by the state….on and on…if you think it won’t happen….think again…we didn’t think Christians would become silenced and told they cannot speech out against same-sex…political disagreement with the administration…punishment to lose all, everything…we see it right now…same with indoctrination of the young…dependency on the government because they tell us they know more than we do…dictating what children can eat….what we should eat…what we should believe…I agree with many who say ” Christians are the target and their aim is to wipe out Christianity…. throughout the world” they are winning unless we stand up for truth like God tells us to do, be Strong and Courageous, he never told us to be victims and let evil walk all over us…silence has allowed evil to take a huge hold on America…deceit and manipulation and false gods have turned us away from God…time to turn back the clock to days of freedom of speech and religion as the Constitution and Bill of Rights states.

  • Webb

    Another lying, godless liberal who hates God and all who belong to Him. No surprises here.

  • robertzaccour

    “There’s a fine line between free speech and…” There is no line. There is no line you idiots! You either have free speech or you don’t!

  • Bobby Mae

    Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice, and that’s a fact.

    • Bruce Morrow

      If what you claim is true, it is simply your fallen, sinful nature at work and you NEED to REPENT and TURN to Jesus Christ for salvation. Christ can not only save you but CHANGE you Bobby. You don’t have to be a homosexual. Christ will give you the desire and strength to resist this sin of homosexuality.

      • Bobby Mae

        I am celibate, thanks. But let’s put it this way, a man who’s only attracted to men but doesnt act on it is not now suddenly a heterosexual.

        • Angel Jabbins

          No, it think sometimes people continue to be same sex attracted and fight against those temptations all of their lives. Not because they were born that way, but because that is a sin they are just more prone to, as we all have particular areas of weakness influenced our personality and upbringing. But, with God’s help, they will succeed in living lives pleasing to Him. Others, do change and enter into heterosexual relationships which are satisfying to them.

          • Bobby Mae

            Not to be argumentative, but how could you be for certain that they change and enter relationships that are 100% satisfying to them? You don’t.

          • Angel Jabbins

            I only know from what they tell me and what I witness in their lives. One lady in particular has been a real blessing to me as she has shared her journey. She is a very mature Christian from whom I have learned (still learning) a great deal. She is 100% satisfied in knowing she is living a life that is pleasing to God. That is where our true satisfaction in life should be. Our relationship to God is the one that counts the most.

        • Homer for God

          No it means he’s resisted the temptation to sin. Plenty of people have lived full happy lives without relationship or marriage.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          That is awesome that you are celibate – way to go, Bobby! You are one tough bird to pull that off – I am impressed and humbled by your strength!

      • StereoMan

        Is it really your place to insist that homosexuals live loveless and sexless lives? Why is it so important for you that they be miserable?

        • Angel Jabbins

          I have read the testimony of several Christians who were active in the homosexual lifestyle, who came to Christ, and though they are still same sex attracted, they are not living loveless lives. They have the love of Christ in their lives, Christian fellowship, and the joy of knowing they are living to please God now, not their flesh. And best of all, they have the assurance of heaven where the struggle against sin (of all kinds) will be over and they will see their Savior face to face and live in His presence forever…enjoying a love so much more satisfying than what any human relationship can provide.

          • StereoMan

            That is extremely sad.

          • Angel Jabbins

            How is it sad that God loved you so much He came down to earth, died for you so you could be forgiven and live forever in heaven? You would rather stay in your sin and hate God? Amazing.

          • StereoMan

            I do not hate God, I do not know if God exists. If God exists there is no reason to hate Him. However you should focus on your own sins, and not the imagined sins of people you don’t know.

          • Homer for God

            Everyone sins. Only Jesus as human lived a sinless life.

          • StereoMan

            You say sin. I say being human.

          • Angel Jabbins

            Being human = sinner.

            God = holy

            What bridges the gap between the two?

            The God-Man, Jesus Christ who came to die for sinners so they can be made holy one day and live with God in heaven… not having to face God’s righteous judgment for their sins. Good news!

          • Angel Jabbins

            I am glad you do not hate God, but you CAN know if He exists. Lee Strobel, a journalist who was committed atheist at one time, set out to disprove the Bible and the Christian faith once and for all. What happened instead was that He found God and became a believer in Jesus Christ. He wrote a great book, The Case for Faith in which he covers some of the very questions/problems with God that you are bringing up. One in particular is the problem of suffering in the world…how a loving God could allow it. Grab a copy of his book and see if some of your concerns might be addressed. What have you got to lose?

            The problem is most people don’t want to hear that they are sinners. There’s the rub. But you cannot come to God unless you understand your need of Him and how will sinners understand if Christians do not share? We are obligated to share and expect to be called ‘haters’ for it. Jesus was hated and killed for confronting people with the truth of their spiritual condition. Yes, the message of Christianity is offensive…offends our pride. We do not want to hear we are sinners in need of saving. And God ‘resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble’. If we want to know God, we first have to humble ourselves and seek Him. If you seek Him with a humble open heart, you will find Him.

    • Angel Jabbins

      If it is a fact, then give us factual evidence to prove that homosexuality is not a choice…that people are born that way. This very puzzling to me since I just read an article the other day about a school district in Fairfax, Virginia that wants to teach children, from a young age, that sexuality is ‘fluid’…’that “fluidity” is normative and gender exploration is natural.’ In other words, children will be taught that they
      are ever-changing sexual beings… all are partial boys, partial girls who need to wait and see what gender they will decide to be. Now that flies in the face of what you just said about same sex attraction not being a choice. And it these children can change back and forth for a while until they make up their minds which sex they want to be, then why do homosexuals constantly tell us that gays can never change and become straight? If someone claims to have been gay, but leaves that lifestyle to become straight, that person is labeled a liar and a ‘hater’.

      You may not feel it is a choice, but it is. It is a choice that originates in the heart which the Bible says is wicked, tainted by sin. I am inclined to want to do many things I know are wrong. Some people are more inclined to lying than others. We all have our various areas of weakness. We can’t just say…oh,well…I can’t help it, I was just born that way. Whatever our sinful inclinations may be, there is an answer for them in the salvation Jesus Christ died to give each one of us, so we don’t have to be the slave of any sin..be it homosexuality, gossip, lying, greed…whatever.

      • Bobby Mae

        I never said born this way. I dont know why I am, but I never consciously chose to be attracted to the same gender. And stop comparing sexual orientation to lying… One is an innate body/mind/emotional function, the other is not.

        • Angel Jabbins

          I guess we are talking about two different things here. Their is same sex attraction without sinning and then there is same sex attraction that one acts upon and then moves into sin. The Bible says homosexuality….acting on it, engaging in it…that is sinful behavior. I do not think it is sin to be same sex attracted alone. It is a weakness just like any other. I am prone to anxiety, have been since I was a child, which can lead me into sin if I stop relying on God and give in to it. I still struggle with it on a daily basis though I have been a Christian many years. God doesn’t always take away our sinful inclinations, but through the help of the Holy Spirit He teaches us how to walk in victory. Our battle with sin will not be over until we reach heaven.

        • Angel Jabbins

          I am sorry I did not make myself more clear on that, Bobby. Weaknesses (which we all have) incline us toward committing sin, but are not sin in themselves. It is acting upon them that makes us cross a line into sin. What I am referring to in most of my comments here regarding homosexuality is active involvement in the homosexual lifestyle and all that entails. One who is same sex attracted who is not acting out those desires is not sinning. Having the attraction is not sin, but acting on is, even if it is just in the mind with lustful thoughts.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Yes, I agree, while there is no gay gene, per se, it would appear that SSA is at least partially nature and perhaps partially nurture. The nature part is arguably a complex thing, and I guess any nurture part, should it exist, is also complex. I have heard a LOT of people with SSA say that there is no way in Heaven they would have chosen it, given the difficulties involved. This seems quite credible to me.

    • Josey

      I beg to differ with you, satan puts imaginations into one’s thoughts, they then either reject those thoughts or they begin fantasize and dwell on it, doesn’t matter if it’s lust to commit adultery, or same sex attraction or sadistic sex, whatever sin it is, the temptation always starts in the mind that is why Jesus said even to lust after a woman in one’s mind is the same as doing the act, why would he say that? Cause to lust one has begun to dwell on it and the person with the help of the father of lies satan will give that person a reason to start justifying why it is ok to do the sin. Even serial rapists or killers say it began as thoughts in their mind, they heard voices then they began to imagine the acts, then they acted on them, same thing with pedophiles. With submission to God, one can resist these thoughts, reject them and not act on them but first to be submitted to God you must accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour and the sacrifice He made on the cross, for then He empowers you with the Holy Spirit to submit to God and resist the devil, the devil will flee from the one submitted to God for that one will resist these thoughts. Homosexuals think they are special being born this way with out a choice in the matter, this is the justification satan has given them, a lie, you are not special, sorry to bust your bubble, you are the same as the rest of humanity who either can submit to God and resist the tempting thoughts satan puts into your mind or your own lust puts there by the things you allow to enter your mind or you can submit to those sins and die and end up in Hell, it is your choice. What? You don’t want to hear about a place called hell and how could a loving and just God send anyone there? Well, God is Holy and just and cannot allow sin to enter into heaven, that is why He gave His son to be a sacrifice for each of us so our sins were placed on Jesus but those who reject that perfect gift will be cast into a hell for all eternity where there will be gnashing of teeth for the pain of it, there will be no more chance of escape. Heaven will be free of sin and death! Glory to God! His judgements are righteous and good and Holy!

      • Bobby Mae

        Lol.

    • jennylynn

      It is called temptation, that is a fact, but choosing to obey that temptation is a choice!

      • Bobby Mae

        Yeah, no duh. I dont think anyone has ever said that actually having sex isn’t a choice lol

  • Sam Medina

    This has happened because the church spent the last 30 years focused on prosperity… meanwhile, the enemy took action to take over the culture…. because he took over the institutional church decades ago.

    • Bruce Morrow

      You said the TRUTH. Look how far the Episcopal Church here in the United States has compromised and fell into total apostasy:

      LGBT in the Church

      In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church” (1976-A069(link is external)). Since then, faithful Episcopalians have been working toward a greater understanding and radical inclusion of all of God’s children.

      Along the way, The Episcopal Church has garnered a lot of attention, but with the help of organizations such as Integrity USA, the church has continued its work toward full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Episcopalians. In 2003, the first openly gay bishop was consecrated; in 2009, General Convention resolved that God’s call is open to all; and in 2012, a provisional rite of blessing for same-gender relationships was authorized, and discrimination against transgender persons in the ordination process was officially prohibited.

      To our lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender brothers and sisters: “The Episcopal Church welcomes you!”

      • StereoMan

        It’s wonderful that LGBT people are welcomed. It’s good and right and proper.

    • Thisoldspouse

      Yep. We’ve had massive “compensation” (building) programs to flaunt wealth and prosperity, and pastors making well over 6 figures in “CEO”-type positions of megachurches. It’s frankly ungodly, and now we’re paying for it in cultural retribution.

  • Bruce Morrow

    And just think it is only going to get worse! Christians will be targeted as we get nearer to the coming of Christ for his saints!

  • Bruce Morrow

    The following is found on the official website of the Episcopal Church here in the United States:

    LGBT in the Church

    In 1976, the General Convention of the Episcopal Church declared that “homosexual persons are children of God who have a full and equal claim with all other persons upon the love, acceptance, and pastoral concern and care of the Church” (1976-A069(link is external)). Since then, faithful Episcopalians have been working toward a greater understanding and radical inclusion of all of God’s children.

    Along the way, The Episcopal Church has garnered a lot of attention, but with the help of organizations such as Integrity USA, the church has continued its work toward full inclusion of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) Episcopalians. In 2003, the first openly gay bishop was consecrated; in 2009, General Convention resolved that God’s call is open to all; and in 2012, a provisional rite of blessing for same-gender relationships was authorized, and discrimination against transgender persons in the ordination process was officially prohibited.

    To our lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender brothers and sisters: “The Episcopal Church welcomes you!”

    • Charybdis69

      Yeah. Come while the doors are still open. Because the EC is leaking membership like a sieve, and won’t be around much longer.

  • Bruce Morrow

    Agreed!

  • http://biblicalsalvation.info/ railhead

    It’s against the law to say “homosexuality is sinful” but perfectly fine to call someone a judgmental BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP. ?

    Anyway, the message “repent from sin and turn to Christ” is also a false gospel message of works salvation, if that’s actually what he was saying. Repent means change your mind, so you have to change your mind from trusting sin to start trusting in Christ??? Makes no sense. How about using something the Bible actually says like “repent from your dead works and turn to Christ,” since most people are errantly trusting in their works to save them rather than Christ.

    Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

  • Joel Rivera

    The Gaystapo are such a hypersensitive intolerant bunch. They demand total conformity and will only tolerate opinions that are favorable to them. Bunch of crybabies.

    • StereoMan

      Hm, maybe if you Christians stopped trying to take their human rights away?

      • Homer for God

        Sorry Sin doesn’t have rights.
        God Bless

        • StereoMan

          Who defines sin?

          • Homer for God

            The Bible of course.

          • StereoMan

            What about people who don’t believe in the Bible?

  • Charybdis69

    So the guy simply addresses sin in a general sense, and makes no specific reference to which sins his listeners needed to repent of, and some hyper-sensitive lesbian has him arrested? If that’s not a textbook example of having a guilty conscience, then I don’t know what is!

  • MEP1101

    If you are a zealous Christian thinking of visiting Europe this summer you had better give that another thought, the End Time’s Anti-Christ is becoming very aggressive there. Canada is another country becoming very hostile to evangelical Christians. It will be the same here soon. Is there a re-education camp in our future?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Peaceful homophobia is a human right. Everyone has a right to reject sick depravity. Many Americans should get jailed for bullying the Christians.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    It was wrong and a foolishness of the West to put sinful people over God. Now the Sodomic tyranny is covering the land “legally.” Everyone has to submit to Sodomy. What a pathetic society. What’s the difference between today’s America and the Germany of 80 years ago regarding bending the human conscience? Nothing.

  • Suzanna Brown

    The end game of homosexuals is elimination of free speech and dictatorships in countries that support homosexuality., Canada is prime example.

  • MC

    How can you get arrested for “homophobia” when there is no such thing as “homophobia”?

    • Tristan A

      You can get arrested for hate speech.

      • MC

        If that was the case then the KKK, the Black Panther Party, and the Black Hebrew Israelites group would always be arrested at their rallies in public places. So, you’re wrong.

        ” In 1969, the Supreme Court protected a Ku Klux Klan member’s racist and hate-filled speech and created the ‘imminent danger’ test to permit hate speech. The court ruled in Brandenburg v. Ohio that; “The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”[78]

        This test has been modified very little from its inception in 1969 and the formulation is still good law in the United States. Only speech that poses an imminent danger of unlawful action, where the speaker has the intention to incite such action and there is the likelihood that this will be the consequence of his or her speech, may be restricted and punished by that law.”

        The good thing is that the Bible is not hate speech but love speech.

        • Tristan A

          This was in the UK.

          The interpretation of many of your bible constitutes to hate speech.

          • MC

            There is no hate speech in the bible.

          • Tristan A

            First of all, to avoid offense to anybody I used the word interpretation. I only need to refer to the Westboro Baptist Church to proof my point. Their interpretation of the bible does constitute to hate speech. They would have been jailed long ago if they where doing this in Europe. And rightly so.

            Secondly, I quote:

            “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13). If that isn’t hate speech what is?

          • MC

            If you’re making an argument for cults then the Westboro Baptist church is a great choice. But it has nothing to do with Christianity, just like the People’s Temple, run by atheist leader Jim Jones. It’s terrible that Europe hates free speech. God bless America.

            And no, that verse is not hate speech, it’s love speech. Anything to warn and keep people from an eternity separated from God is pure true love. Not warning a person that the bridge is out is hate.

          • Tristan A

            So who is going to decide which version of christianity is the correct version to be used by judges in their job?

            Europe doesnt hates free speech, we only have very traumatic experiences with too much free speech. That is why we have excluded hate speech. Hate speech is the first and fatal step to the holocaust.

            Your interpretation of love is quite similar to Isis. If you dont want to live with god you deserve to die….Do you know they give their victims a huge hug before they stone them to death? And do you think their victims feel their love???

            Don’t be ridiculous….

          • MC

            “So who is going to decide which version of christianity is the correct version to be used by judges in their job?”

            There is only one Gospel, the one Jesus and the apostles preached. Why would a judge be involved?

            “Europe doesnt hates free speech, we only have very traumatic experiences with too much free speech. That is why we have excluded hate speech. Hate speech is the first and fatal step to the holocaust.”

            Nope! You guys, especially you, hate free speech. I’m even reading about people who live in the UK that say, “freedom of speech in the UK is a joke”, and, “A simple off-comment is treated the same way as a genuine death threat or incitement of racial hatred.”. Getting arrested for tweets and yelling outside a Mosque? Come on! You guys are really like a Muslim country, you’re told what to say and what not to say, like little children. How sad and oppressive! And no, America always had free speech and we don’t have a Holocaust, stop being a drama queen.

            “Your interpretation of love is quite similar to Isis. If you dont want to live with god you deserve to die….Do you know they give their victims a huge hug before they stone them to death? And do you think their victims feel their love???”

            Can you show me where I said that if you don’t want to live with God you deserve to die? Can you atheists ever make a non strawman argument? The Islam religion of giving people hugs before they kill them has nothing to do with Christianity. We don’t stone people to death for rejecting Christ. We don’t cut off people’s heads for rejecting Christ like the religion of Islam does for rejecting Islam. We don’t want world domination, we don’t want a theocracy like the religion of Islam does. We believe in free speech and free will unlike the religion of Islam. If you want to talk to me further you’re going to have to start using logic and critical thinking, and stop being intellectually dishonest. My time is precious and I like an intellectual opponent.

          • Tristan A

            Well, there are clearly lots of different interpretations of the meanings of those gospels, from the most literal to more liberal interpretations.
            Justice needs to be served indiscriminantly, consistent. Ideally it should not matter which judge is presiding over a court case, the outcome should be the same. Objective, fair, etc. that is why we have something called a constitution and laws. Objective rules that, together with historic rulings, dont leave much room for arbitrairy outcomes.
            Now you want to add a new component to that process called religion. To keep the justice process complying to the same standard of objectivity, we clearly have to objectivy this additional input to the process. So we have to choose one religion, and only one interpretation of that religion to ensure that the outcome of the justice process remains fair, predictable, objective, etc. is that your interpretation? Or the one of Westboro? You tell me…. Religions are belief systems, subjective by definition. Therefore religions are incompatible with justice. Therefore religion should be kept out of the judicial process. Allowing them to form part of it means compromising the essentials of justice.

            You mentioned the following “anything to warn people and keep people from an eternity separated from god is pure true love” as response to my quote of leviticus regarding the stoning to death of homosexuals. I understand that you condone the stoning of homosexuals and actually calling that love. Currently homosexuals are being stoned to death by members of Isis. And before they are being murdered they are being given a big loving hug. Don’t you see the logic in that parallel?

            There is no lack of intelectual capacity on this side. My english might not be perfect as im not a native speaker, i apologize for any confusion as a result. However the logic is there. Please try to understand it.

          • Tristan A

            First of all, I don’t think you know the meaning of love or honesty at all.

            Second, killing of gay people by stoning them has as much to do with muslims as it has to do with christianity. I speak on a daily basis with muslim people. I have colleagues that are muslim, i have friends that are muslim, my GP is muslim. They are in no way different than christian people. They are loving, caring and compassionate human beings. They believe in the same god, only have a different book. (which content wise is not even that different from “our” christian bible, i refer to the passages in leviticus again).

            Thirdly, you told me that there is only one gospel/scripture. If there is only one gospel, there is no room for interpretation, hence I have to take the texts as literal as possible. – Please confirm

            the above is important as it defines the context for me to interpret your other statements.

            Fourth, I quoted:
            “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13).

            I called the above hate speech (by doing so attaching a very negative connotation to the quote), you called it love (by doing so attaching a very positive connotation to the quote). – Please confirm my interpretation

            As I have to take the quoted text literal, and you call this text love, I can only conclude that you condone/support what is literally mentioned in this text. As the earlier translations of this text mentioned actually the stoning to death, I can only conclude that you condoning the stoning to death of homosexuals. – Please confirm.

            It is my interpretation that you condone the content of the text. It is ISIS that is actually acting on what is prescribed in this text. As I have to take the text literal, I conclude that you condone the actions of ISIS.

            So now you tell me where I have not been truthful…

            And why do I call it hate speech? Simply, because acting on what this texts prescribes results in committing a hate crime. A hate crime is a crime (murder, violence, etc.) against an individual because of hate, hate born out of the fact that the victim is different from the “norm”. Calling upon people to commit hate crimes is hate speech.

            What I don’t understand is why you are so high up your horse about the freedom of speech at all, where you clearly don’t take the rights to access to impartial justice to serious. Or you are very principally motivated for all civil/human rights, or you don’t care at all. Selective “shopping” seems a bit dishonest to me.

            I am very happy Europe has limited free speech to exclude hate speech. The (difficult) balance is what we call civilization. If you are proud to have your Westboro lunatics, please be. We as Europeans are very proud that we have moved beyond such barbarity.

          • MC

            “First of all, I don’t think you know the meaning of love or honesty at all.”

            No, you don’t.  

            “Second, killing of gay people by stoning them has as much to do with muslims as it has to do with christianity. I speak on a daily basis with muslim people. I have colleagues that are muslim, i have friends that are muslim, my GP is muslim. They are in no way different than christian people. They are loving, caring and compassionate human beings. They believe in the same god, only have a different book. (which content wise is not even that different from “our” christian bible, i refer to the passages in leviticus again).”

            You’re the one who keeps bringing up the stoning of gay people by Muslims. The stoning of gay people was the  judicial law of ancient Israelites only, there was no Christianity yet. And I could care less if you have Muslim friends, we DON’T have the same God, we Christians believe Jesus IS God, they don’t. And don’t forget, Orthodox Islam is not only a system of beliefs, but also a legal system. It’s not some radical Muslims who stone gay people in Muslim countries but ordinary Muslims do, it’s part of their Sharia Law. 

            “Thirdly, you told me that there is only one gospel/scripture. If there is only one gospel, there is no room for interpretation, hence I have to take the texts as literal as possible. – Please confirm
            the above is important as it defines the context for me to interpret your other statements.”

            Depends on what you mean by, “literal”? As the Scriptures use metaphors, hyperbole, and poetry.

            “I called the above hate speech (by doing so attaching a very negative connotation to the quote), you called it love (by doing so attaching a very positive connotation to the quote). – Please confirm my interpretation”

            The warning of that verse is out of love as it would keep one out of hell, just like telling a person not to kill someone or else they would go to prison and get the death penalty in today’s world. It was the judicial system of the ancient Israelites only, if you broke the law then you suffered the consequences and you brought it upon yourself for not following the law. No, I do NOT support the stoning of gay people. 

            “It is my interpretation that you condone the content of the text. It is ISIS that is actually acting on what is prescribed in this text. As I have to take the text literal, I conclude that you condone the actions of ISIS.”

            No, it’s everyday Muslims in Muslim countries who are following their Sharia Law. It’s their judicial system. 

            “So now you tell me where I have not been truthful…”

            When you say I condone the stoning of gay people as I have never said nor implied it. 

            “And why do I call it hate speech? Simply, because acting on what this texts prescribes results in committing a hate crime. A hate crime is a crime (murder, violence, etc.) against an individual because of hate, hate born out of the fact that the victim is different from the “norm”. Calling upon people to commit hate crimes is hate speech.”

            Do you think the death penalty is a hate crime? Do you think self defense is a hate crime? What Christians are calling upon people to commit hate crimes? Here in America a lesbian school teacher tweeted to people to help her burn down a pizza joint because the Christian owners said they wouldn’t cater a gay wedding as that is against their Christian beliefs. She was fired from her job, and rightfully so. That’s a hate crime. If she just said she hated the pizza joint owners because of their beliefs and they were stupid Christians then that wouldn’t be a hate crime but free speech. If she actually said that I wouldn’t agree with her but I would fight for her right to say it.

          • KenS

            In response to this post, please refer to my above post.

          • KenS

            The verse you quoted was not, I repeat not a gospel!!!The gospels were Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, they were the tellign of the good news! the definition of gospel is “Good News”.

            All you did was quote a scripture from the old testament which we are not under anymore, the old covenant as been abolished and we have been given the new covenant in Christ Jesus.

            Hebrews 8:6-10

            6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,which was established upon better promises.

            7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

            8 For findingfault with them, he saith , Behold , the days come , saith the Lord, when I willmake a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

            9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not , saith the Lord.

            10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

          • Tristan A

            If we are not under the OT anymore, why is everybody then quoting leviticus left and right against same sex marriage? Same for sodom and gomorrah (which was actually about something completely different anyway…). I prefer the love your neighbor as yourself part of the bible as well. Wish everybody would stick to that…
            Also would appreciate some research in the sin of the pharisees in that same part of the bible….

  • MC

    It’s not the first time homosexuals have lied to the police pretending to be persecuted , they’ll do anything immoral to push their agenda. It won’t be the last.

  • jennylynn

    It seems to me the lesbian should of been arrested for her hate speech of God and the Bible along with her abusive profanity. The preacher was actually preaching a love message. Those who save souls is wise and he was warning these people of the coming judgemnet which is hell fire. Would you think it loving if someone didn’t warn you from the cliff you were going off of? I guess on judgement day all the opportunities for repentance will be presented to each person along with their rejection of CHRIST, and they will be without excuse. ROMANS 1

    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
    Isaiah 5:20

  • Emmanuel

    Hey pastors, Paul was incarcerated, this man of God was arrested and I’m willing to go, are you?? Will you take a stand for Christ? IF you are willing, give me an Amen!!!