Christians Suspect Islamic State Influencing Muslims in Palestinian Territories, Israel

Syrian Mosque pdISTANBUL, Turkey (Morning Star News) After months of Islamic State (IS) committing horrific violence in the Middle East and North Africa, Palestinian Christians say a large number of Muslims in the Palestinian Territories and Israel have become “radicalized” and are much more aggressive toward them.

Anti-Christian hostility boiling under the surface for years has come into plain view in the past few months in the form of physical attacks, incendiary religious speeches and inflammatory billboards, they said.

Palestinian Christian leaders said not all Muslims in the Territories and Israel have become extremists, and elders within the Muslim community are trying to dampen the effects of extremist ideology, but enough Palestinians have become radicalized that many Christians feel unsafe or, at minimum, openly unwanted. Whereas tensions between Christians and Muslims previously were seen as issues between individuals, there is now a definite “us vs. them” mentality from Islamic extremists, Christian leaders said.

“Since I was a child this has been happening in the Christian Quarter and in the Muslim Quarter [in Jerusalem’s historic Old City area], but not in this way,” said Rami Fellemon, a Palestinian Christian and director of Jerusalem Evangelistic Outreach, headquartered in East Jerusalem. “Many people are sitting here, and in their own mind they are thinking, ‘What the heck are we doing here in this country? Let’s leave the country.’ Others have resentment toward Muslims now. They don’t understand why they are doing this in such a way.”

Ramped-up hostilities from radicalized Muslims come on top of attacks on Palestinian- and Christian-owned properties by ultra-Orthodox Jewish zealots, in addition to the day-to-day difficulties Israeli officials impose on Palestinians in the Territories.

“They feel like even more of a minority now and feel hated by both sides [Jews and Muslims],” Fellemon told Morning Star News. “It’s a terrible feeling. Feeling afraid. Feeling cornered. Feeling, ‘Maybe this is not my place. Maybe I just need to get out of here. I don’t want to deal with them. I don’t trust them anymore.’”

Opinions differ as to when attitudes started to change in the Territories, but most agree it happened some time in 2014, either during a retaliatory military campaign by Israel against Hamas for the June 12 kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, or when the IS territorial expansion in the Middle East started in earnest.

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In February, Christians in Israel’s heavily Muslim town of Nazareth were alarmed to find a billboard posted downtown ordering them not to spread their faith or even talk about Jesus in a way that contradicts the Islamic version of His life.

Quoting from Surah 4:171 in the Koran, the sign reads in Arabic, “O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, ‘Three’; desist – it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son.”

According to local media reports, area Christians are too afraid to ask to have the sign removed. None of the Christians interviewed by Morning Star News were willing to talk about the sign.

That month in East Jerusalem, in the Old City area, on Feb. 26 someone started a fire at a seminary building used by the Greek Orthodox Church near the Jaffa Gate. No one was injured, and although no one was ever arrested, ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups were widely thought to be responsible.

Islamist anti-Christian sentiment has not been limited to billboards. On May 1, Sheikh Issam Ameera, an imam at the Al-Aqsa mosque (built on the Temple Mount in the Old City area), posted online a video of a sermon entitled “The Islamic State is the keeper of religion and state” in which he essentially told fellow Muslims that they must be in a constant state of war and conquest against the “polytheist enemy”, i.e., Christians, as well as against Jews.

“Today, our honorable Islamic scholars talk about defensive jihad, ‘Fight for the sake of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress, for Allah does not like transgressors,’” Ameera says in the video. “In other words, you should always be polite, never go against anyone, and never point your weapon at anyone, unless someone attacks you. In all other cases, everything must be peaceful? No! When you face a polytheist enemy, you should give him three options – they must convert to Islam, or pay the jizya [tax on non-Muslims], or else you should seek the help of Allah and fight them. You should fight them even if they do not fight you.”

Ameera repeats that “polytheists” are enemies that must be fought with Allah’s help.

“Let the scholars hear this: You should seek the help of Allah and fight them – only when they fight you? No! When they refuse to convert to Islam, and refuse to pay the jizya,” he preaches. “In such a case, it is meaningless to let them keep enjoying their life in this world, eating from the sustenance bestowed by Allah, yet disbelieving in Him. No! Against their will, we shall subjugate them to the rule of Allah.”

Three days later, a disagreement between a Christian and a Muslim in the Old City escalated into a mob attack against Christians. According to several witnesses, 60 to 80 Muslims in their 20s rampaged through the Christian Quarter immediately after the argument, throwing stones at houses and businesses. The young men also attacked an area Ethiopian Orthodox Monastery, where they spray-painted anti-Christian messages on the building and destroyed a cross.

“When they came, it was a wave of anger that was … you cannot describe it, you cannot understand it,” Fellemon said. “Because when one kid is fighting with another kid, and 60 to 80 people come and start smashing doors and throwing stones on windows and doors of Christian families and smashing the cross of the convent, this is totally not about a kid hurting a kid. This is more about Islam and Christianity. It’s more about persecution.”

The attack on the Ethiopian monastery was considered particularly sinister because it took place two weeks after Islamic State released a video in which they beheaded or shot 28 Ethiopians for being Christians and threatened other attacks against Ethiopian Christians. The slogans spray-painted in the Christian Quarter caused concern among Palestinian Christians because they were the same statements made in the video, where IS called Christians “worshipers of the wooden cross.”

There is some debate as to what is causing the change in attitudes of Palestinian Muslims toward Palestinian Christians, particularly those of Muslim youth in the Territories. Christians are asking how far IS ideology has penetrated Palestinian society. Has IS arrived in the Territories, or are the anti-Christian attitudes there the natural outcome of other radical Islamic groups in the region since 1980s? There is evidence for both theories.

The IS graffiti, scrawled word for word in the Christian quarter from the video of the slain Ethiopians, is thought to show that some Muslims are embracing IS ideology or, at minimum, are being influenced by it. Hizb al-Tahrir, an Islamist party in Palestine, has placed a recruiting billboard between Jerusalem and Ramallah inviting Muslims into IS and its caliphate. Ameera of the Al-Aqsa mosque is a leading member of the same party.

On May 11 the Islamic hostility appeared to be mitigated when a traditional elders council between Muslim and Christian leaders took place in Jerusalem. According to every Christian interviewed, the Muslim leaders apologized earnestly for the actions of those who attacked the Christian quarter. One Christian leader said they appeared to be almost shamed by the actions of the mob, which may show that the majority of Muslims in the Territories are tolerant towards the Christian minority.

The group issued an “honor pact” in which further attacks were foresworn. But on May 24, Muslims attacked another group of Christians near the Damascus gate. Details about the attack are scarce, other than that one man was slightly injured and that Israeli police broke it up.

Fellemon said that although he thinks IS may have some influence in the Territories, the terrorist group is a part of the larger problem of militant Islam in the Territories and not the other way around.

“Are they [those who attacked the Christian quarter] ruled by ISIS? I don’t think so,” he said. “Are they inspired by ISIS? It is hard for me to answer yes or no because ISIS is inspired by radical Islam. So maybe I would answer and say, ‘Yes, they are inspired by radical Islam.’”

Another Christian leader said recent hostilities in Jerusalem could be the related to IS.

“The dark ideology of ISIS is spreading all over the region like cancer,” he said. “This is also including the Holy Land. Christians, overall, live here in peace and harmony with Muslims in Jerusalem and the West Bank, but incidents do happen from time to time, and it’s true that these incidents have recently increased, especially in the Old City of Jerusalem.”

He added that some incidents could have been inspired and encouraged by Muslim extremists “and ignorant individuals or groups or others who are interested in making a problem.”

The Christian leader said the hostilities call for prayer in the Territories.

“Pray for the relationships between Muslims and Christians to be good despite all of the problems,” he said. “Pray that the Christians would act as they are called to be, ‘salt and light’ and a living testimony. Pray against this dark, satanic, and attacking spirit of fundamentalism, and for the Christians to respond in a way that reflects Christ.”


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  • All In

    Homosexuals should be welcomed into the church like all the rest of us sinners. But condoning gay marriage is not acceptable. Condoning gay marriage is akin to condoning adultery, incest, murder, pornography, polygamy, theft, beastiality, and all the rest of sinful behavior.

    It’s one thing to welcome sinners into the church but another to condone sin. Condoning sin means the church is becoming like the darkness of the world rather than being a light in the dark world.

    Jesus came to save us from sin. Jesus NEVER condoned sin.

    • K2

      And what about the TONS of divorced and remarried people in the church – is that not clearly adultery? Why has there been “cultural adaptation” to THAT?

      • All In

        Yes, adultery is sin. But the church doesn’t say adultery is ok. That was my point. All sinners are welcomed to church, but the sin isn’t condoned.

        • katrina

          You are so right, God loves the sinner but not the sin and not one of us is clean. I am trying not to be judgemental but it’s Gods Word and not mine and Campolo knows that very well and as God says those that are given more need to know better.

          • All In

            Agreed!

          • jennylynn

            God is a righteous judge, a God who is angry with sinners every day. Psalm 7:11

            God loves sinners so He died for us, but that also means He requires repentance, not trampling the blood of Christ.

        • http://textsincontext.wordpress.com Michael Snow

          Actually, the church, by its silence and actions, has said, “Adultery is OK.” Same reasons apply as to ‘why?’ See link in my comment above.

          • All In

            The churches I’ve attended haven’t been silent on adultery. While your comments may apply to some churches, the assertion shouldn’t be a generalization. But I think I get what you are saying.

          • K2

            thank you.

          • Covered California

            What denomination of church do you go to?

          • Ludlow Porch

            Must be Catholic.

          • K2

            Thank you, Michael. That’s my point! The church does ceremonies for people remarrying. I have attended these – ranging in location – from Southern Baptist, Conservative Baptist, etc. etc. At least the Roman Catholic church is a bit more consistent. God has mercy and there is grace – except the very ones who may be divorced and remarried are elders and deacons in churches and condemning the homosexual couples. That is purely Pharisaical and Jesus severely condemned them as white washed graves!

          • jennylynn

            I don’t know any church who condones adultery, but I guess because many preachers are not preaching against it only shows they are cowards and fear man rather than God.

          • Froderic Frankenstein

            Agreed. Thee church has allowed the divorced and remarried to re-interpret Scripture to their liking and then denounce gays for doing that very thing. It is no wonder the Church is in the state it is in.

        • LadyGreenEyes

          Welcomed to attend, then, you mean, not to join?

      • Bry

        In earlier generations, this question was very seldom raised, simply because divorce was almost never encountered among Christians and was unusual even in the general population. Today, however, it has become a very real problem in evangelical Christian circles. Infidelity is no longer rare, even among Christian leaders, and one can hear almost weekly of some new pastoral “affair” and its traumatic effect on his church. With such examples in the leadership, it is bound to be even more common among the ordinary members, and the resulting decline in the stability of the Christian home today is surely one of the more alarming signs of the times.

        In the past, attempts to deal with this question on a Biblical basis have tended to be somewhat academic, probably because the very idea of divorce was so alien to the expositor’s own experiences. Nowadays, however, since the tragedy of divorce has spread so widely that almost every Christian has encountered it not only in his church but also among his close friends and relatives, it is vitally important that we seek to deal with it both Biblically and sympathetically.

        First of all, the divine standard for marriage is lifelong commitment to one’s spouse, and nothing else. Even though divorce was permitted in some cases under the Old Testament economy, Christ made it plain that this was not God’s ideal. When He was asked this very question,

        “He answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” (Matthew 19:4-6).

        This seems very comprehensive and conclusive, yet He immediately followed up this statement with the following apparent exception:

        “Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery” (Matthew 19:9; see also Matthew 5:31, 32).

        It does seem from this statement that the discovery of extramarital unchastity on the part of one’ spouse is here given as a possible grounds for divorce. God does place a high value on faithfulness, on the part of both bride and bridegroom, as a basis for a happy and lasting marriage. Fornication is condemned as a sin in both Old and New Testaments.

        In this day of widespread sexual license, however, this provision might well become a rather common ground for divorce, even among Christians. It does, indeed, dilute the principle of “one flesh” used by God to describe a true marriage.

        “What? Know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? For two, saith He, shall be one flesh… Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body” (I Corinthians 6:16, 18).

        This passage, incidentally, suggests that a woman who submits to extramarital sex becomes, in God’s sight, a harlot, whether she yields her body for money or some other reason that she sees as profitable to herself.

        On the other hand, it is noteworthy that Jesus, evidently on a different occasion, did not give fornication as an excuse for divorce.

        “Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery” (Luke 16:18).

        If there is any doubt, this also applies to wives.

        “And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery” (Mark 10:12).

        Since the Lord would not contradict Himself, we should conclude that, while there may be some situations in which extramarital sex would create such problems in a marriage that divorce would be better than continuing in an unhealthy or even dangerous relationship, in general it would be better to forgive earlier indiscretions (if accompanied by repentance and present faithfulness) rather than to break up what might otherwise still be a good marriage.

        In both cases, however, Christ warned that remarriage after divorce amounts to adultery, a sin which is explicitly forbidden by God’s seventh Commandment. Both divorce and remarriage, therefore, are extremely serious steps, and both violate the divine principle of permanent union and faithfulness in marriage.

        But this is not the whole story.

        “The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy… For He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust” (Psalm 103:8, 14).

        ”If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins” (I John 1:9).

        This promise is specifically for Christians, and includes even the sin of adultery, if there is genuine repentance. The Lord made this very clear in His dealing with the woman who “was taken in adultery, in the very act” (John 8:4). He reminded her accusers that they also were sinners and had no warrant to punish her. Then He told the woman:

        “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more” (John 8:11).

        He in no way condoned her sin, but He did forgive her sin, when she gave evidence of godly sorrow and determination not to sin again in this way. Under such conditions, His followers would do well to follow His example. At least in this particular context, He put no further conditions on her freedom, either to return to her husband if he would have her, or to marry another if she were already divorced.

        There is one other important Biblical factor to consider in divorce-and-remarriage situations. A Christian should never marry a non-Christian, as this almost inevitably leads to serious friction in the home later on, unless the unsaved partner can, by God’s grace, be won to Christ.

        “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers” (II Corinthians 6:14).

        Nevertheless, many Christians insist on doing this very thing. And then what? Also, a person may become a believer after marriage, with the partner still unsaved. In either case, there is an unequal yoke, and the Christian husband or wife may come to desire release from this yoke. The Apostle Paul commands in this case:

        “…If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him” (I Corinthians 7:12-13).

        The next verse indicates this is especially important for the sake of the children, who are often the ones hurt most by a divorce.

        But suppose the unsaved spouse is the one who insists on a divorce.

        “If the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace” (I Corinthians 7:15).

        This obviously means that the Christian husband or wife is then at liberty to remarry. In fact, if there are children involved, and if a caring Christian spouse can be found, it would be good to remarry, for children need the love and guidance of both a father and mother, provided, of course, that the stepmother or stepfather is “in the Lord” (I Corinthians 7:39) and desires to assume such a responsibility.

        By extension, these principles could be applied to other situations that the Scriptures do not cover explicitly. As noted above, God is able and willing to forgive all sins, including even the sin of getting a divorce for trivial reasons. He has called us to peace, not legal bondage, and He can make a good marriage and a happy home no matter what the previous history of the people involved may have been, provided that true repentance, proper restitution, and genuine saving faith and sincere desire to serve the Lord now exist in their lives.

        These are all second-best choices, however. For young people who have not yet gotten involved in such mistakes, it is far better—for now and forever—to seek God’s best, the ideal marriage He planned from the beginning. Such a marriage is a foretaste of heaven, for it is a picture of the heavenly bridegroom and His chaste Bride (Ephesians 5:22-33).

        • K2

          Bry, I can agree with you on every point but the fact remains – the church at large, especially in the USA, seems by silence or otherwise accepting divorce and remarriage – OFTEN – even when there has been no indication of adultery, etc. AND they are celebrating the “remarriages”…. and I know of churches where there are pastors, deacons and elders who are divorced/remarried men – who divorced their believing wives, while both were in the service of the church, etc. etc This is still wrong where Christ’s teachings are concerned and the ONLY theologian out there who’s come out against it is John Piper. I find no one else. Evangelical America accepted Ronald Reagan – no questions asked – as a believer and “worthy” of leading the nation but Bill the adulterer was BAD to the core. I think that in God’s eyes – they are both fallen, both “unworthy” as David after his sin with Bathsheba – but God forgave. Divorce and remarriage is RAMPANT in the church in America – and the church is relatively silent OR a participant. So sad. When I was in Sunday school – the teacher always said – DO NOT judge – do NOT point fingers – you end up having three pointing right back at you. Jesus said the same about casting stones – Ted Haggard and others are great examples on how and why we should all be very careful. The church needs to be consistent – if they allow divorced and remarried people to serve in the church – then they should also allow married homosexual couples – and hold both of them to fidelity. If they reject the homosexual couples – they should ALSO reject the divorced and remarried adulterers from service but still keep them in the church family as mentioned above. I don’t see churches in America doing that! Do you?

          • Katrina Vargovic

            RI am again reading all comments, especially between Bry and K2. To tell you the truthl didn’t even read all that you had to say, l got the idea and yes Bry you are right. K2 you also have a point but K2 can l please say that if you read the Lords word, you can be assured that it is alive and true. I had seen alot and heard a lot in and about churches. Now, because of this l have decided that it is best that l have church at home. I do not belong to a certain denomination and l read the Words of God whenever l have a chance. I talk to him everyday and he is not only my Saviour but also my best friend that knows my heart and loves me regardless of me sinning daily. He knows me better than anybody and totally understands why l am the way l am and why l do what l do, it is so comforting to know what a friend l have in Jesus. I believe no man, l believe in the one that gave his life for me and because of that l have eternal life. There is no need to argue or try to prove yourself. What l am saying is all you need is to go to the word of God and it will tell you all you need to know and do. He is the Way, the Light and the truth. Do as he asks and repent of your sins, follow him and be obedient to what he asks and leave the rest to his Holy Spirit. I struggle every day, most of us do, l also sin daily, once again most of us do. I go before him every night and ask that his will be done not mine, daily l repent and try really hard to be obedient and l know l fall short. He doesn’t ask us to be Jesus, he asks us to be like Jesus, he doesn’t ask much of us. Everything we need to know about what is just and true is in HIS WORD. I cannot be for what God is against. Therefore l cannot condone homosexuality. Once again he loves us all but not the sin!!

          • K2

            Thank you, Sister. I am a teacher of the Word and a missionary. I know the Bible well. I am only pointing out the lack of consistency in the American church’s criticism of Campolo. God says He HATES divorce – and Jesus and Paul both clearly say that remarriage after divorce is adultery! Why is the church not clearly applying this teaching? The church in America “celebrates” IN the church – second and third marriages and I know divorced/remarried men who are on the board of elders and deacons of Conservative Baptist Churches in the so-called Bible Belt and elsewhere. Since the Word of God is of supreme importance with regards to homosexuality – why not be as adamant with regards to divorce and remarriage? Blessings and prayers.

          • Michael Todd

            I think that I’m in essential agreement with you. One of the things, (for me at least) that requires further study of God’s word, are cases in which one spouse is dangerously abusive physically. Though such a one may not commit adultery I wonder if it would be considered a form of desertion which Paul speaks of. That being said, I realize that the majority of divorces amongst Christians are for far less serious reasons.

          • Michael Todd

            Well said, Katrina!

          • Ludlow Porch

            The Devil is not limited to just families nor does he bypass the houses of worship nor those shepherd’s that lead their flocks. Satan has an agenda, and he will be damned if he attains or does not attain his goal! God condemned homosexuals through is words, long before the church existed. I will not stand for or accept gays or gay couples in the church I attend! The SCOTUS, be damned! Sin is Sin! Repentance is exactly what it is, repentance!

        • LadyGreenEyes

          Very good analysis, and in depth, as needed.

      • Shosh 7154

        Why has the world accepted nearly naked women in public and murdering enfants as they are coming down the birth canal and allowing language on public media so profane and crude even parents who use the same language wonder how everything has become so dirty. Here is the answer: 2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

      • Ketih

        Amen K2! Its interesting how the the Church spends all its time on addressing gay people yet none of its time addressing divorce and remarried people as well as single people who are dating and sleeping around on dating sites which is so common in the churches today. The churches point the finger at others to take the focus off of their own sin going on inside its own walls. The pastors have become experts on this deception.

        • Gary Daniel

          I don’t know what church you go to but the ones I attend most certainly do. I attend Bible based churches exclusively.

          • Jim H

            Did you know evangelicals actually have a higher than average divorce rate?

          • Gary Daniel

            No I don’t know that. It doesn’t surprise me. From what I’ve seen in the panalopy of evangelical purveyors there is a complete feel good message of empowerment that leads people into some fantasy land that God is going to make everything wonderful. I find that as delusional as faith healing. Jesus is the great physician because he died to make people whole in the sight of God…forever.

        • LadyGreenEyes

          Odd, because I have attended churches that speak against those things.

        • katrina

          A true believer tries so hard but we are human, God doesn’t want us to be Christ he only asks that we be like Christ. Human nature is to sin and his Word tells us exactly what he expects of us. Why are we going back and forth. Take your Bibles and hear him speak, simple, thats what l am about to do . God Bless, good night!!!!

      • Gary Daniel

        The world is “divorced”. We live in that world. Do expect Christians to be immune to the world? We’re not. Knowing homosexuality is sin from the get go and going ahead with it is a case of purposely going against God’s word. Nobody gets married in order to divorce unless they are gold diggers.
        That’s a huge difference. Your equalizing sins argument falls flat.

        • K2

          I am confused. So when divorced people, who never intended to get divorced but things went “wrong”, decide to remarry… don’t they know from the “get go” that God calls remarriage as divorced people or to a divorced person – adultery? Sin – right? Daily? In the full sight of the world? Public?

          • Gary Daniel

            Yes They do know that. What they are doing when they divorce is not condoned by God. That’s something they are going to have to answer to God. If they continually get divorced then something is wrong. They ask forgiveness and move on, not recommitting the same sin over and over again.
            Sinning is sinning. Homosexuality is an abomination to God’s plan…if you are a believer. Kind of hard to be fruitful and multiply by sodomy.
            I am personally guilty of looking at women lustfully. I also swear like a sailor when in pain or anger. I’m not at the meat market every weekend and I don’t swear all the time.
            I’m not living in it. Thingss come over me.
            If I was going out to pick up chicks every night and then going to church on Sunday and claim Christianity I think that would be called blasphemy.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            That’s because, as I can see you understand, salvation doesn’t make one instantly perfect. You know when you do wrong, and that’s far cry from claiming the wrong is right, and condoning it.

          • Gary Daniel

            Thank you for understanding my point. So far you are the only one.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Ah, know the feeling! Being right can be lonely sometimes, but I’d rather be right.

          • Gary Daniel

            It’s lonely at the top.

          • katrina

            My opinion only, just a question. Would God want us to stay in an abusive marriage to suffer physically and mentally everyday or so?? Personally, l don’t think that he does, there are many reasons why people divorce. Our God is a God of Love and don’t forget that Jesus walked with us for 33 years and knows feels every emotion plus more and more importantly he knows our hearts. We can go before him and there is nothing that he doesn’t understand, infact, he is the ONLY ONE who truly knows us. He is my best friend because he knows me so well and understands all. God made us not to live alone, would he want us to be lonely, l am not sure, but what l am sure is that we were born for a reason and he knows the beginning to the end. He doesn’t want any to perish, all we need to do is pray for His Will and not ours. As for the jewelry, l don’t see what that has to do with anything, infact if you read the Bible correctly it tells us of women who in those days were gifted with gold anklets and such. If you can’t find it let me know and l will find the scripture.

          • Gary Daniel

            Good points. I’m alone and I don’t like it but then again my choices for partners have not been the best. I don’t think it was I who mentioned jewelry. I have no problem with jewelry or nice clothing. A woman is supposed to be an asset or complimentary to her husband. Ostentatious jewelry is what I think is frowned on.

      • LadyGreenEyes

        Depends on the circumstances. Someone who divorced because there was infidelity in the marriage is justified for doing so, The Bible is clear on that. That isn’t the reason for a lot of divorces, but it is a reason for some.

        • K2

          Actually the Bible is not clear on that in the original text. Commas were added in the 16th century. In the original – it reads -” Do not divorce your spouse and expose her to becoming adulterous unless she has already been unfaithful” in paraphrase. So it’s a bit like saying – if you divorce your wife, you expose her to becoming adulterous since women in this society cannot survive alone without a man or they fall into prostitution ( a reality in many parts of the world today) but in the same manner you cannot make the sea “salty”… you cannot expose to becoming adulterous someone who is so already. God is clear in Hosea about forgiving and taking back one’s spouse. As Jesus said – it’s about hardness of heart – meaning lack of forgiveness… but God never intended for divorce to happen and if there is separation, there should not be remarriage. The two have become one flesh. John Piper (with whom I do not always agree) has a well-researched article on the matter. Blessings.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            I do believe that is a reason that wold be accepted, but that doesn’t mean one must divorce for infidelity, because forgiveness is still possible. Preferred, even. The nest solution in the eyes of God is to make the marriage work. Piper….the name is familiar, but having a hard time placing him right now. Will have to check it out.

            The main issue here, though, is how the churches approach the topic. Sin is sin, no argument there, but churches are gatherings of people who seek forgiveness, through His grace, and all members sin in one way or another. A church should not encourage the sin, but should also not discourage those who do stumble from coming If a person isn’t continuing in sin, repeating it over and over, then the sin should be forgiven. People flaunting sin aren’t to be welcomed, of course, but past sins are different. Jesus forgave people with some very poor reputations. We should do the same. I don’t know of any church that claims divorce isn’t problem, though I have known some that understood it’s a reality of our times, and were willing to forgive.

      • Ludlow Porch

        Repentance, is such a wonderful thing! God is so thoughtful. He knew none of us were perfect, so he gave us that as a fire escape. Jesus said “go and sin no more.” We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God! But what separates Christians from others, is this. We do our dead level best to keep from sinning, we do our best to comply with God’s word, to keep His words and to respect His laws and covenants with us. But we are human and humans make mistakes, that is where “repentance” comes in. That is where the blood of Jesus takes hold and He became our redeemer. You see sin is a repetitive act that you commit, even thou you know it goes against God. God’s condemnation comes into play when you ignore Him and commit sin anyway.

      • Terry

        Just because culture has changed and the church has changed its position on so many issues through the years does not mean that God’s Word has changed. We will not judge one another based on man’s law or social stigmas but strictly on the Word of God and God’s Word never changes as God says of Himself, “I change not.”

    • StereoMan

      It isn’t sin. It is loving another human being.

      • All In

        By what moral authority are saying that homosexuality isn’t a sin?

        Are you okay with a father and daughter being in love if they are both of age?

        • StereoMan

          No moral authority necessary, since this is a consensual act that hurts no one.

          Your incest question is irrelevant. We are not talking about incest but homosexuality. Unless you’d care to explain why you are comparing them.

          • All In

            “No moral authority necessary”

            Of course one is necessary. If it’s just your opinion, you have no authority to say others can’t call homosexuality a sin.

            “Your incest question is irrelevant.”

            It is relevant. If you approve of homosexuality because it is based on love, then it follows that you approve of incest because it is based on love. You can’t make one exception without the other.

          • StereoMan

            There is no reason outside of religion to oppose homosexuality. It’s as absurd as opposing left-handedness. It occurs throughout the animal kingdom. It is not a sin, except within the confines of religion. There is no moral authority necessary. Are you also opposed to gravity?

            If people are consenting adults I don’t care who they fall in love with. It’s no one’s business but theirs. Now why don’t you go round up all the people who are CLAMORING to marry their mothers, brothers, and sisters?

          • All In

            “There is no reason outside of religion to oppose homosexuality. ”

            If you have no moral authority, your opinion is irrelevant. Therefore, I say you are wrong and you can’t disagree with me since you have no moral authority to do so.

            “It’s as absurd as opposing left-handedness.”

            These are such tired illogical arguments. I’m surprised anyone still uses them today. But nevertheless, handedness is learned. Many people, including myself, have taught themselves to be ambidextrous. In this regard, handedness is similar to homosexuality in that it is a learned behavior. But they differ in that handedness is not a sin.

            “If people are consenting adults I don’t care who they fall in love with.

            That means you are okay with incest and polygamy.

            “Now why don’t you go round up all the people who are CLAMORING to marry their mothers, brothers, and sisters?”

            One need do a simple check to see people are wanting to marry their parents.

          • StereoMan

            “If you have no moral authority, your opinion is irrelevant. Therefore, I say you are wrong and you can’t disagree with me since you have no moral authority to do so.”

            NO ONE has any moral authority. Homosexuality occurs, and even though you keep insisting people choose it, science (and homosexuals themselves) tell us otherwise. You may as well be morally opposed to the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. There’s nothing anyone can do about it.

            It isn’t a sin to be left-handed, to have green eyes, or to be homosexual. These are all the hand we are dealt in this life. It’s a perfectly sound, rational argument that a 3-year old who has been untainted by religious teachings could understand. The hand you use to write with isn’t learned, it comes naturally, and it’s unnecessary to “correct” it, just as it’s unnecessary to correct your innate sexuality.

            “That means you are okay with incest and polygamy.”

            I don’t care in the least. Knock yourself out. It doesn’t concern me and is extremely rare anyway.

          • All In

            “NO ONE has any moral authority. ”

            God has the moral authority over all of creation, including humans…and you.

            Unless you can prove God doesn’t exist. Can you?

            “Homosexuality occurs, and even though you keep insisting people choose it,”

            People choose it. Period. Any notions to the contrary are subjective, uninformed, and wrong.

            “It isn’t a sin to be left-handed, to have green eyes, or to be homosexual.”‘

            You keep saying that, but you’ve already shown you have no moral authority to say that. Therefore, your comments are wrong and irrelevant.

            “It’s a perfectly sound, rational argument”

            No it isn’t. Your lack of argument is laughable.

            Here’s something to consider: God has deemed homosexuality to be a sin. It’s by His standards you will be judged. You can say and do anything you like, but His judgement will still apply. So dismiss and deny as much as you want but don’t think for a moment you will escape God’s judgement.

            “I don’t care in the least.”

            The fact that you have no explanation as to why homosexuality and incest are different shows your argument for homosexuality is baseless and indefensible. So much for homosexuality not being a sin.

          • StereoMan

            “God has the moral authority over all of creation, including humans…and you.”

            I elect not to believe that. If there is a God I doubt very much He would give me free will and punish me for things I have no control over.

            “God has the moral authority over all of creation, including humans…and you.”

            Burden of proof does not work that way. Can you prove Odin doesn’t exist? Or Thor?

            “People choose it. Period. Any notions to the contrary are subjective, uninformed, and wrong.”

            I have pointed out to you in the past that if you look up homosexuality in the dictionary you’ll see nothing about actions, nothing about behavior. It’s about attraction and nothing more than that. As long as you continue to fight against the dictionary, we’re not going to get anywhere. And no, it’s not chosen, for Heaven’s sake, here’s a link from KID’S HEALTH that you need to read – this is a SCIENTIFIC link, and not a religious one. Is this link subjective, uninformed and wrong, or is it peer-reviewed, rock solid and backed with scientific facts?

            http://kidshealth dot org/parent/emotions/feelings/sexual_orientation dot html

            “You keep saying that, but you’ve already shown you have no moral authority to say that. Therefore, your comments are wrong and irrelevant.”

            I’m not giving you moral authority, because that’s ridiculous. I’m giving you science.

            “Your lack of argument is laughable.”

            Are you laughing at the scientific link above, too? Keep laughing. I think you’ll find you’re the only one who is.

            “Here’s something to consider: God has…”

            And do I even need to read any more after that, since it’s just going to be your religious opinion which I’ve already indicated I believe to be wrong?

            “The fact that you have no explanation as to why homosexuality and incest are different shows your argument for homosexuality is baseless and indefensible. So much for homosexuality not being a sin.”

            Here’s an explanation as to why homosexuality and incest are different. Homosexuality is about two people of the same gender who are attracted to one another. Incest is about two relatives engaging in sexual conduct. There you go. That’s why they are different. You keep trying, unsuccessfully, to bring homosexuality over to a matter of morals and sin and you haven’t got a single reason outside of your faith to do so. That’s why you lose.

          • All In

            I suspect you are just another troll with multiple monikers. My conversation has ended with you.

          • StereoMan

            Good, come back when you know what you’re talking about.

          • All In

            Insults…the sign of a troll. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

          • StereoMan

            You don’t want to be insulted, don’t insult others.

          • All In

            I call them as I see them. Now go away.

          • StereoMan

            You don’t make the rules here.

          • Homer for God

            “I have pointed out to you in the past that if you look up homosexuality in the dictionary you’ll see nothing about actions, nothing about behavior. It’s about attraction and nothing more than that.”

            Be that as it may, you are still choosing to act on that attraction thus committing the sin plain and simple.

            “Heaven’s sake, here’s a link from KID’S HEALTH that you need to read – this is a SCIENTIFIC link, and not a religious one”

            Since a lot of science has it’s own corrupt idea thanks to man.It’s not going to be accepted by faith based Christians and it still doesn’t justify the choice of Homosexuality.

            “Here’s an explanation as to why homosexuality and incest are different. Homosexuality is about two people of the same gender who are attracted to one another. Incest is about two relatives engaging in sexual conduct.”

            Sin is the same no matter what act it is or how you justify it (many who practice incest will disagree with you on the love and attraction issue btw)

          • StereoMan

            “Be that as it may, you are still choosing to act on that attraction thus committing the sin plain and simple.”

            And why shouldn’t you “act” on it if you happen to have fallen in love?

            “Since a lot of science has it’s own corrupt idea thanks to man.It’s not
            going to be accepted by faith based Christians and it still doesn’t
            justify the choice of Homosexuality.”

            No, science doesn’t support corrupt ideas. Science supports facts. Homosexuality isn’t a choice, just ask practically ANY homosexual if you don’t believe the science.

          • Homer for God

            “It isn’t a sin to be left-handed, to have green eyes, or to be homosexual. These are all the hand we are dealt in this life.”

            First two are agreed as you are born that way. Homosexuality is a choice period. No one is born homosexual.. no matter how you cut it or justify it. Environment, and exposure as well as upbringing are all contributing factors to one’s CHOICE to participate in sex with the same gender (homosexuality).

            Again Christians (true followers of the word) can tell you this has been a fact for much longer than this acceptance of the act. Again like murder, theft, divorce, adultery, or any other sin in the Bible, homosexuality is treated no different in the eyes of the Lord.

            “That means you are okay with incest and polygamy.”

            “I don’t care in the least. Knock yourself out. It doesn’t concern me and is extremely rare anyway”

            It’s that kind of thinking that is leading this society down the dark path it is going.. Revelation continues to come true and all you are doing by defending sin is fulfilling those prophecies

            I am not going to ask you to change, but i will pray for you (whether you want me to or not) and encourage you to look at it from all sides, not just by what the immoral majority tells you to go by,
            God Bless.

          • StereoMan

            “Homosexuality is a choice period. No one is born homosexual.”

            Read a science book once in a while.

            “It’s that kind of thinking that is leading this society down the dark
            path it is going.. Revelation continues to come true and all you are
            doing by defending sin is fulfilling those prophecies”

            Maybe worry a little more about yourself and focus less on the actions of other people that don’t affect your life in any way.

          • Names_Stan

            It’s fine for you to believe it’s a “choice” and to share that belief. Just understand what you’re telling people when you do share it:

            If you see it as a choice, that can only mean you can imagine choosing it. Fortunately I was born firmly on the hetero end of the spectrum. So it’s impossible for me to see attraction to men as a choice.

            Also, I’ve always been attracted to women, so there was never a day I “chose” to like them.

            But people who have some bisexual attraction appear to be more firmly against it and terribly uncomfortable with it. Chances are this is a product of guilt and self-loathing.

            All that is fine, and people shouldn’t judge those who have SS attraction. But I can tell you first hand…if you didn’t have it, you could better understand it’s either something you were born with, or it isn’t.

          • Millard

            Another leftist idiot trying to use the ole “its found in the animal kingdom” mantra. BTW, so is eating their young…..therefore that is why we have abortion…because animals eat their young.

          • StereoMan

            The point is not that we should act like animals, the point is it’s a natural thing to form attractions to the same gender. But you go back to ironing your white sheet and hood.

          • All In

            “the point is it’s a natural thing to form attractions to the same gender.”

            It’s not natural at all. No sin is natural.

          • StereoMan

            No one calls it sin except a few narrow minded churches. The rest of us left that kind of thinking in the stone ages where it belongs.

          • All In

            Go away troll.

          • StereoMan

            You have shown that you do not understand what sodomy means, what homosexuality means – why should anyone take you seriously? You openly fight the dictionary definition of things. If anyone’s a troll, it’s you.

          • Millard

            “Natural” for you but sure as hell not for me. Its NOT “natural” for me to be attracted to the same sex. In fact its not “natural” or “normal” for 98% of the people. I’m not some KKK member as you implied you stupid piece of queer shit. Keep your dick in your pants and you will live longer. Oh, wait, you are a bug chaser. Keep going, you will catch that which you seek.

          • StereoMan

            Not natural for you, not natural for me, but natural for THEM. They look at the opposite sex and it’s like looking at a tree. So in your worldview we kill them, right? Or at least torture and humiliate them?

          • http://textsincontext.wordpress.com Michael Snow

            Amen. Too many Christians do not understand the difference between the ‘love’ the world offers and that of God. See the link in my comment above.

          • Bry

            Ignore this person, they are only be argumentive. Your trying to convince them is futile at best.

          • All In

            Yes, I spent some time with him yesterday and I agree. But, some incorrect notions about homosexuality should be challenged.

          • StereoMan

            Including yours. Give me scientific links otherwise you have nothing but hocus pocus.

          • All In

            Homosexuality by choice is easy to prove. Who or what is forcing you to engage in sodomy?

            I suspect you’ll provide a similar ‘no answer’ reply to why incest and homosexuality are different.

          • Covered California

            Are you heterosexual if you are single and not sexually active? By your definition of homosexuality and heterosexuality, you are not.

          • All In

            Repent of your sin, accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and be saved. There are no others ways into heaven.

          • Covered California

            Answer my question.

          • StereoMan

            Yes, trying to convince me of scientific matters without using science IS futile. If only it wasn’t like pulling teeth to get fundamentalist Christians to see that.

          • All In

            Homosexuality by choice is easy to prove. Who or what is forcing you to engage in sodomy?

          • Covered California

            So again, heterosexuality is a choice too??

          • All In

            Yes, it is.

            If people are born homosexual, why do so many go back to heterosexual?

            If people are born heterosexual, why do some become gay?

            What about people who prefer orgies? Were they born with a predisposition for a group?

          • Covered California

            Wow that might be the dumbest thing I’ve EVER read. I want to see how many other Christians on here agree with you that they chose to be heterosexual.

          • All In

            What about some reasonable answers, troll?

          • Covered California

            I’ll answer once you finally answer me why you chose to like girls instead of guys.

          • All In

            I’ve answered that many times, Paul. Did you not see my answers?

          • Covered California

            I’m not Paul!! Seriously. Can you please just tell me so we can stop going in a giant circle?

          • All In

            Sure. Badke, Paul, Mr. Pine, Bobby Mae, Covered California, and all the rest.

            Here is something for you to consider:

            No matter what you or society chooses to believe or make legal, homosexuality is a sin according to God. That debt comes due the moment after your last breath no matter what you think, say, or do.

            The greatest sin – the unpardonable sin – is the persistent on going rejection of God. That debt also comes due the moment after your last breath.

            There is only one way to avoid that debt. Choose Christ and be saved and set free from your sinfulness. Otherwise, party hard now for this is as good as your existence will ever be.

          • Covered California

            So again, you won’t tell me why you chose to like girls over guys, as you have said!! And yet you call me the troll lol

          • Covered California

            No I did not see your answers. And I’m not Paul. Please respond and not use some other bs of “yes you are Paul, I’ve answered it many times, etc etc.” Be direct.

          • All In

            I’ve responded the last time to you below.

          • Covered California

            You didn’t answer my question. Is there a reason you’re reluctant to answer it Richard? Could it be that you didn’t really make a conscious decision to be attracted to whatever gender you’re attracted to?

          • Covered California

            Why did you choose girls over guys?

      • katrina

        I agree, it is not a sin loving another person whether male or female, it is a sin however with the act. Once again His Word is alive and the same as yesterday, today and the days to come!!

        • StereoMan

          Some of you people amaze me, you really do. The “ACT”! So how come with straight people you call it “sexual intercourse” or “making love’ but with homosexuals it’s an “act”?

          • All In

            Who or what is forcing homosexuals into sodomy?

          • StereoMan

            Bad question. Not all homosexual men engage in sodomy, practically NO lesbians do, and many straight couples do. So your question has no point.

          • All In

            The point is you can’t and didn’t answer it. So much for not having a choice.

          • StereoMan

            I’ll happily answer your question when it relates to the subject. Your understanding of sodomy is clearly as backwards as your understanding of homosexuality. I’m not answering your question because it’s stupid and irrelevant.

          • All In

            Go away and infest some other discussion.

          • StereoMan

            Stop posting factually incorrect garbage, and no one will challenge you. Simple.

          • All In

            Do you want one more try? Who or what is forcing gays to engage in homosexual behavior?

            Then explain why the who or what is different from forcing people into incest? Adultery? Beastiality? Pornography? Murder? Being an internet troll?

          • StereoMan

            I wish I had the slightest clue where you think you’re going with questions like this. Turn it around and apply it to straight people, the answer is the same – they do it for pleasure. No one’s forcing them just like no one’s forcing straight people. Apart from procreation, which obviously homosexuals can’t do, the reasons are identical.

          • All In

            “No one’s forcing them just like no one’s forcing straight people.”

            There you have it! No one or thing is forcing gays to engage in homosexual behavior. They engage in it because they choose to.

            Sin is actualized when a person chooses to act in a way contrary to God’s will. Some choices aren’t sinful and some are.

            Now you need to drop the charade that homosexuality isn’t a choice because, as you can clearly see, it is.

          • StereoMan

            They engage in it because it’s a pleasurable act, not a sin. Sin is entirely a construct of religion. No one’s actively disobeying anyone when they engage in intercourse. But there’s no reason NOT to engage in it simply because you’re homosexual. That’s crazy talk.

          • All In

            “They engage in it because it’s a pleasurable act, not a sin.”

            You’ve already established you have no moral authority to determine it isn’t a sin.

            You’ve just established that homosexuals choose to engage in homosexuality because they find it pleasurable.

            You’ve already established that you have no reasonable explanation as to what makes incest, beastiality, adultery, etc. different from homosexuality.

            This takes care of the ‘gays don’t have a choice’ nonsense.

            God said homosexuality is a sin because it isn’t natural. God is everyone’s moral authority. Keep in mind you can’t prove God doesn’t exist so He is your moral authority until you can prove God doesn’t exist.

            This should end the discussion. All of your previous comments have been refuted and laid to rest.

            The only thing you have left is your personal opinion, which has already been established is irrelevant except in the final judgement.

            You still have time to choose Christ and be saved. That is my prayer for you.

          • StereoMan

            “You’ve already established you have no moral authority to determine it isn’t a sin.”

            You have no moral authority to determine that it IS.

            “You’ve just established that homosexuals choose to engage in homosexuality because they find it pleasurable.”

            No one can “engage” in homosexuality, you’ve been told this over and over. Homosexuality isn’t an action. What you mean to say is “homosexual INTERCOURSE”. And your interpretation of my statement is deliberately misleading – PEOPLE choose to engage in SEXUAL INTERCOURSE because they find it pleasurable. Their orientation is irrelevant.

            “You’ve already established that you have no reasonable explanation as to what makes incest, beastiality, adultery, etc. different from homosexuality.”

            That is nothing less than a bald-faced lie. I can easily to back to posts I’ve made which indicate the difference between an act between two consenting adults and an act of abuse between people and animals who cannot legally consent. Adultery hurts the unsuspecting partner. Homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone. You know this, and you’ve had it pointed out to you several times by several people.

            “God said”

            Just because the Bible says it doesn’t mean God did. You can choose to believe it but you have no proof of anything God said. What you have is faith. Not truth. Not proof. The reason I stopped being a Christian was because of the hate contained in that vile book, which if it had anything to do with an actual God I would choose to be an atheist. As it happens, I’m not an atheist. But I don’t think the God of the Bible is anything more than a work of fiction written by men.

          • All In

            “You have no moral authority to determine that it IS.”

            God, the one who created you and who is your moral authority, said is it a sin. His authority trumps your opinion.

            —————————————

            “No one can “engage” in homosexuality”

            Look up the word engage.

            ——————————————

            “That is nothing less than a bald-faced lie.”

            I said, “That means you are okay with incest and polygamy.” to which you replied, “I don’t care in the least.”

            Homosexuality has many society ills, which I’ve shown you many, many times before:

            “Homosexuality doesn’t hurt anyone. You know this, and you’ve had it pointed out to you several times by several people.”

            Homosexuals have much higher levels of psychological and emotional problems than heterosexuals. They also experience much higher levels of substance abuse. This is acknowledged by the pro-homosexual Gay & Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA) .

            Worst yet, homosexuals are at much greater risk of contracting sexually transmitted diseases. – Gonorrhea, Syphilis Regain Traction in U.S., CDC Reports JAN 8, 2014

            Worst yet, 86 percent of sex offenders against males describe themselves as homosexual or bisexual. – W.D. Erickson, “Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters,” Archives of Sexual Behavior (1988); 83.

            Worst yet, sexual abuse as a child is a common factor in the development of homosexual behaviour. – Wilson, H., & Widom, C. (2009). Does Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, or Neglect in Childhood Increase the Likelihood of Same-sex Sexual Relationships and Cohabitation? A Prospective 30-year Follow-up Archives of Sexual Behavior, 39 (1), 63-74

            Worse yet, homosexual relationships are least likely to be successful, experience high rates of infidelity, and experience high rates of domestic violence. – DOJ-funded report

            BY DUSTIN SIGGINS, Fri Dec 06, 2013 19:12 ESTTags: Homosexuality, Transgender, Violence

            Worse yet, homosexuals have the highest incidence of suicide.- The Suicide Prevention Resource Center

            Condoning the homosexual lifestyle will cause more people to be separated from God and eternal life. – God

            These factors already take a toll on society, and in many ways. And these are just a few of the many negative consequences of homosexual behaviour.

            All of them have an adverse effect on society…and ultimately all of us.

            ———————————————

            “Just because the Bible says it doesn’t mean God did.”

            Can you prove God didn’t authorize what the writers wrote?

            As for the rest of your comments, I’ve heard them many times before. All they are is opinion, but not fact.

            Since you can’t prove God doesn’t exist, your belief is faith but not truth.

            I was an ex-atheist turned Christian. I’ve heard all that garbage before. All it means is that you have little idea what you are criticizing, and therefore, place your faith in your uneducated opinion.

            I’ll leave you with this last quote from King David, at the time, the most powerful king on earth. He said, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’”

            There’s no point in replying to this comment as I won’t waste anymore time reading your comments or interacting with you.

          • StereoMan

            “God, the one who created you and who is your moral authority, said is it a sin. His authority trumps your opinion.”

            You are not God, and you do not speak on God’s behalf.

            “No one can “engage” in homosexuality – Look up the word engage.”

            Look up the word homosexuality. You’ll find it still says nothing about being an action.

            All your sources are from highly biased and non-scientific sources. I have played this game with you before. Homosexuality hurts nobody, isn’t chosen, isn’t an illness, and cannot be “cured”.

          • All In

            Right from God himself. God said, “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” – Leviticus 18:22

            And, “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” – Leviticus 20:13

            Regarding attraction, how is homosexual attraction different than someone being attracted to blonds or brunettes? Are you suggesting a person is born to be attracted to a particular hair color?

            How do you differentiate a man being attracted to another man’s wife? Are you saying he was born to be an adulterer?

            How do you differentiate a man being attracted to children? Are you saying he was born to be a pedophile?

            How do you differentiate a person being attracted to his daughter? Are you saying he was born to be a parent who commits incest?

            How do you differentiate a person who is attracted to your car? Are saying he was born to be a thief?

            If all of these are done in the name of ‘attraction,’ all should be legal. Unless you can explain the differences in attraction. Can you?

          • StereoMan

            “Right from God himself. God said, “Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” – Leviticus 18:22”

            I’ve told you before, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God. I think it’s the word of men wanting to speak on God’s behalf.

            “Regarding attraction, how is homosexual attraction different than someone being attracted to blonds or brunettes? Are you suggesting a person is born to be attracted to a particular hair color?”

            Because blonds or brunettes IS a choice, that IS a matter of preference. Gender is another matter, you don’t choose it, it’s innate. No choice, you are either attracted to men or women. And for some people, both. If you are a man attracted to women, then you might find brunette women more attractive than blonde women. But you will never find blonde OR brunette men attractive, in a way that you would desire intimacy with them at least.

            “How do you differentiate a man being attracted to another man’s wife? Are you saying he was born to be an adulterer?”

            No, that’s a bad decision. You can be attracted to people but not act on the attraction. Gay people hear that from Christians all the time, but there’s no reason for gay people NOT to act on an attraction if the person is single and willing. We tell people NOT to act on it with those who are married because that involves lying, distrust, and the breaking of a bond. The adulterer might not care but the party being cheated on certainly will. No one is being hurt in a consensual homosexual relationship.

            “How do you differentiate a man being attracted to children? Are you saying he was born to be a pedophile?”

            Science terms pedophilia an illness. It does not do so with homosexuality. It would be wrong regardless because a child cannot legally consent. This is not the case with homosexuality.

            “How do you differentiate a person being attracted to his daughter? Are you saying he was born to be a parent who commits incest?”

            People do not normally form those sorts of bonds with family members. There are societal taboos associated with it, it hurts families, and is generally speaking a bad idea. There is no such issue with homosexuality, because there’s no reason (outside of religion) to oppose it.

            “How do you differentiate a person who is attracted to your car? Are saying he was born to be a thief?”

            Too ridiculous to entertain. That is illegal behavior. It is punishable by law. Homosexuality is not.

            You seem to be struggling with the issue of consent. I’m not quite sure why.

          • All In

            Based on your beliefs and choices you will be judged by the very God you deny.

          • StereoMan

            You are speaking on behalf of a God you neither understand nor represent.

          • All In

            “You are speaking on behalf of a God you neither understand nor represent.”

            Can you prove your assertion?

          • StereoMan

            Not difficult since you can’t prove the existence of your God.

          • All In

            Arguments for the existence of God:

            1. Ontological: Anselm’s Argument (Anselm)

            2. Ontological: Modal Version of the Ontological Argument (Hartshorne and Malcolm)

            3. Ontological: Possible Worlds Argument (Alvin Plantinga)

            4. Cosmological: Argument from Motion (Aquinas)

            5. Cosmological: Argument from Efficient Causality (Aquinas)

            6. Cosmological: Argument from Contingency and Necessity (Aquinas)

            7. Cosmological: Argument from Degrees of Perfection

            8. Teleological: Argument from Design (Teleological)

            9. Teleological: Leibnizian Cosmological Argument (Leibniz)

            10. Teleological/Cosmological: Design (Kalam) Argument

            11. Psychological: Argument from Absolute Truth (Augustine)

            12. Psychological: Argument from Origin of Idea of God (Descartes)

            13. Psychological: Argument from Morality (Kant)

            14. Psychological: Argument from Consciousness (Newman)

            15. Psychological: Argument from Innate Desires (C. S. Lewis)

            16. Psychological: Argument from Aesthetic Beauty (Von Balthasar)

            17. Psychological: Argument from Existential Meaning

            18. Mental: Argument from other Minds (Alvin Plantinga)

            19. Practical: Pascal’s Wager

            20. Historical: Argument from Miracles

            These don’t even touch on predictive and fulfilled prophesy, life from non life, and the sudden appearance of all of the world’s present phyla.

            I won’t wait for your evidence, since you don’t have any. But you do have great faith in your unprovable opinion.

          • StereoMan

            Yeah, and? I said YOUR God. Meaning the God of the Bible. I don’t discount the possibility of some other God.

          • All In

            What proof do you have that there is a god other than the God of the Bible?

          • StereoMan

            I have none. I don’t even know if one exists.

          • All In

            I asked you, Stereoman, “What proof do you have that there is a god other than the God of the Bible?”

            You said, “I have none. I don’t even know if one exists.”

            You have no idea if God exists, yet you said to me, “You are speaking on behalf of a God you neither understand nor represent.”

            Do you not see how your two statements contradict each other?

          • Covered California

            Richard, why did you choose to like girls over guys?

          • Covered California

            Seriously, they create a God in their head that supports their own views.

          • StereoMan

            Cherry picking. Yes. And they are all guilty of it.

          • sylviacroft

            “You are not God, and you do not speak on God’s behalf.”

            Oh, but His people are commanded to speak on His behalf and to speak as though God Himself were in me begging you to be reconciled to God. II Corinthians 5:20

          • sylviacroft

            Satan is the father of lies and the truth is not in him. Why would you give him the time of day much less help him spread his lies?

          • sylviacroft

            What you just said is more than crazy talk, it’s reasoning and talk that comes from a person who refuses to acknowledge God’s right to set the rules. You are in opposition to God and that my dear sir, is a dangerous place to be. A man is a fool to challenge the God of the Universe. You cannot win.

          • Covered California

            Homosexuality is not the ACT. It is the attraction. Would you only call someone heterosexual if they’re engaging in intercourse right now? I suppose all virgins are neither heterosexual nor homosexual, right?

          • sylviacroft

            “A man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife and the two shall become one.” Ephesians 5:31, Mark 10:8; Genesis 2:24. That is the scriptural definition of marriage. There has to be a man and a woman to become one flesh. Same sex relationships cannot do that.

          • StereoMan

            Marriage predates the Bible, so Christianity has nothing to say about who is or is not permitted to marry.

          • sylviacroft

            You open your mouth and foolishness pours forth. The fool hath said in his heart there is no God.

          • StereoMan

            I never said there was no God.

          • sylviacroft

            But what you stand for denies Him.

          • All In

            “Marriage predates the Bible,”

            Are you really suggesting marriage was around before God created the heavens and the earth?

          • StereoMan

            Are you really suggesting there was no earth before the Bible was written?

          • All In

            God inspired the Bible, and He was around well before the earth. Are you suggesting marriage was around before God?

          • Covered California

            Still waiting for you to tell me why you consciously chose girls over guys. You haven’t told me…

          • Bry

            Outside the covenant relationship in marriage between a man and woman that is all it is, an act of sin.

          • StereoMan

            So let them get married then.

          • Homer for God

            Don’t split hairs. Its the same meaning and still a choice.

          • StereoMan

            Not a choice. Never was. Did YOU make a choice?

          • Homer for God

            I suppose you know of infants who came out thinking “hey I’m going to be homosexual for the test off my life” If you do, please fill me in on where too get that super smart serum so every other newborn can be that smart.
            Second yes I do make that choice. Just like I choose not to murder, steal, divorce my wife, commit adultery or any other sins God laid down in His word. That includes homosexuality and the temptation to practice any sexual sin no matter how “good it feels”. If that were the case then people should be allowed to murder because it “feels good” them.
            When the moral laws were passed down…we can’t pick and choose what laws to follow and justify breaking the rest because it “feels good”
            God bless

          • StereoMan

            Science doesn’t know if sexuality is formed in the womb or after we are born. It doesn’t matter either way. Once you have it, it’s what you get and you can’t change it. This is something I’m quite amazed you don’t know.

            You might choose whether or not to have intercourse with your wife. But what you don’t choose is your attraction to her. You could not enter into such a relationship with a man because you are not attracted to men. Well, for homosexuals, that’s the same, but backwards. Nothing complicated about it. And again, this is something that I’m amazed you don’t understand.

          • Homer for God

            “Science doesn’t know if sexuality is formed in the womb or after we are born”

            Um…. ultrasounds? Blood draw? Dna?

            “Once you have it, it’s what you get and you can’t change it”.

            .Tell that to Bruce jenner and every other male/female who is/was male/female.

            “You could not enter into such a relationship with a man because you are not attracted to men. Well, for homosexuals, that’s the same, but backwards. Nothing complicated about it. And again, this is something that I’m amazed you don’t understand.”

            Actually I do. As a teen I was attracted to other males. I was also an atheist. Then I was saved and washed by the blood of Jesus and learned the truth. Your evolutionary science proves human nature says that both genders are and can be attracted to each other, and if that is your whole argument in favor of same sex sex being acceptable then think about this:
            A kleptomaniac is a person who is overwhelming attracted to the idea of taking items that don’t belong to them (theft)….Does that mean we need to take the law of theft off the book?
            No? Want something human related? Ok..Pedophilioa is human attraction to childern. Does that mean its ok for your child to be molested? How about your neighbor and their child as long as it’s consensual?
            Serial Killers are attracted and fascinated with death and taking life. Does that mean murder should be legal?
            Just because humans are attracted to each other doesn’t mean they have to have sex. God makes his law clear and tells us there are consequences to your choice (reap what you sow), so if one chooses to have sex outside traditional marriage (between man and woman) that are committing sin (sexual sin in this case) and thus not permitted to enter the kingdom of Heaven. God Bless

          • Covered California

            Bruce Jenner is transgender. Transgender is not the same as being gay. Smh

          • StereoMan

            “Um…. ultrasounds? Blood draw? Dna?”

            To determine sexuality? Yeah, good luck with that.

            “Tell that to Bruce jenner and every other male/female who is/was male/female.”

            What does transgenderism have to do with homosexuality? Far as I know, Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is still attracted to women.

            “As a teen I was attracted to other males. I was also an atheist. Then I
            was saved and washed by the blood of Jesus and learned the truth.”

            Then I suggest you were/are bisexual. Whatever Jesus did for you in your life, He didn’t change your sexuality. That’s impossible. Just as he doesn’t grow limbs back on amputees.

            You still don’t understand that homosexual relationships are entirely consensual and hurt nobody, so it’s pointless for you to sit here comparing them to pedophilia or anything else that hurts someone in an abusive way.

          • Jim H

            “Tell that to Bruce jenner and every other male/female who is/was male/female.”
            Actually, both Jenner (Bruce/Caitlyn) and Bono (Chastity/Chas) have stated their orientation hasn’t changed. Both have always been, and still are, attracted to only women.

          • Covered California

            Homers telling me he used to be attracted to men, so I asked him if he’s ever been aroused by a man and he says no. Lol. these liars will make up any story in order to prove sexual orientation is a “choice.”

          • Covered California

            So you chose one day to be heterosexual? Can you tell me more about that decision?

          • Homer for God

            I guess I’ve always known though I did explore my options ( see reply to stereoman). Made a great deal more since to me and the Bible only confirmed that I made a correct and accurate decision. I praise God everyday for it!!!

          • Covered California

            Yes, exactly you always knew. It’s not a conscious decision that “All In” is trying to say. He told me be one day chose to like girls over guys but runs away whenever I ask about the decision.

          • Homer for God

            I was a child when I decided. As science proves you don’t retain much of your memories from childhood, so the accuracy of the conscious decision statement could very well be true.
            Truth is no one knows when they are born who they are. Caregivers, environment among other factors helps one decide one’s attraction, but like I explained to stereo, just because one is attracted does not mean they need to act on it. God Bless

          • Covered California

            I don’t claim born that way. All I know is I never woke up one day and chose to like the same gender as many people in this crowd like to claim (as if they know me and my mind)

          • Homer for God

            No but you did come to your decision somehow (whether life experience or teachings by caregivers or media or both).

          • Covered California

            I discovered it the same way you did when you first started getting erections for girls. But thank you for pretending to know my life story. Does it make you feel better about yourself? That at least you’re not a yucky gay guy?

          • Covered California

            Interesting, does your wife know you’re bisexual?

          • Homer for God

            I’m not because I choose not to be. I said explored options nothing more

          • Covered California

            Lol so you were never really attracted to them? Sorry to be blunt, but have you ever become aroused thinking about men?

          • Homer for God

            Still not the point. and no I really wasn’t, but I would of never have known had I not of explored my options. Stick to the conversation on hand as the subject is about the sin of sex outside the marriage between man and woman.

          • Covered California

            Oh my gosh, then you were never attracted to men. You need a serious class on sexual orientation.

          • Homer for God

            No I don’t. My class is the Bible and God is my teacher. Not all people are going to act on that attraction and you need to stop setting verbal traps. The fact is I am married now to the WOMAN I love and stayed attracted to forever. And on that note I bid you a blessed day!!!!!

          • Covered California

            Hahaha sir you said you were attracted to boys when you were younger. Your words not mine. You need to be clearer.

          • Homer for God

            Ok this is the last I will say and any other responses you give will be given the same response.
            My life and your life (past and present) doesn’t matter nor what we did or say. What matters is God has never, and will never change and neither will his Word. Any argument you have that tries to favor sin will never change God’s Word about it. So Twist words as you may and celebrate whatever sin you must, but in the end you will be in judgement and to only God will you answer to. God Bless

          • Covered California

            Im not trying to favor sin. I am celibate myself. But for you to say that you chose to be straight after being attracted to males is a downright lie (aka sin) because you admitted you have never been turned on by a man. Have a nice night, maybe choose your words better in the future, God bless.

          • Covered California

            I think you should stop lying and saying that you were attracted to males then. It’s clear that you’re only saying that to “prove” that you chose your orientation. Yet now you admit you have never once been aroused by a male. That’s called lying. Hopefully you repent

          • All In

            I chose as well. If you study child sexual development, you’d see all of us choose for a variety of reasons.

          • Covered California

            Great! Now tell me WHY you chose girls and not guys. Otherwise you have no credibility.

          • Homer for God

            Yes. I listened to God and chose to marry a woman and I’ve never been happier!!!

          • Covered California

            I’m not talking about who you choose to date or marry. I’m talking about attraction to a gender. Big difference.

          • Homer for God

            That’s what I am talking about. Just because you are attracted to the same gender does not mean it’s ok to act on it. That is God’s law and it’s as plain as you can get it. God Bless

          • Covered California

            OK, but I’m still homosexual. I personally am celibate, but only attracted to the same sex. You wouldnt call a man only attracted to men but doesn’t act on it a straight man would you?

          • Homer for God

            I don’t call him anything but a child of God who makes choices and lives through the consequences (good or bad) to their choice.

          • Covered California

            Good, that’s better than most people here 🙂

          • StereoMan

            Your son comes up to you one day and says, “dad, I’m gay.” What do you do? Beat his face in? Disown him? Or listen to what he’s telling you and accept that the way it is for you isn’t the way it is for everyone?

          • Homer for God

            “Your son comes up to you one day and says, “dad, I’m gay.” What do you do? Beat his face in? Disown him? Or listen to what he’s telling you and accept that the way it is for you isn’t the way it is for everyone?”

            Of course not that is not God’s way. God is love and unconditional love at that and that is was I practice. I will love my son no matter what, but I will not support his choice to sin.

            “Then I suggest you were/are bisexual. Whatever Jesus did for you in your life, He didn’t change your sexuality. That’s impossible. Just as he doesn’t grow limbs back on amputees”

            I’m answering all your comments here. Like I told you and Covered can read this too. Just because I was attracted as a teenager doesn’t mean I am now. When I was attracted then, it was the a confusing time to say the least. I was also an atheist (not suggesting any correlation so don’t look for hidden agendas). Once I was saved both the practice of atheism and .the attraction to the same gender were taken away ( put in the hands of Jesus). You can call it repression or whatever makes you feel better, but i simply do not look at men the same way. Once my Spirit was renewed all old thing were put away and I was born again with the Holy Spirit who lives within me. So yes He did change me sexually, and I praise his name everyday for it.

            Attraction (temptation) is human, fleshly nature. In other words it is an overwhelming feeling you fleshly body gives nothing else. For others it’s the same overwhelming feelings that tempts some to murder, others to theft, others to peophilia. Where the sin lies (where you fail to acknowledge) is one’s actions to this attraction (homosexuality, murder, theft and so on). The Bible puts it simple. I don’t know where or why you try to debate it.
            I will deny my flesh any temptation that will lead me astray from my God because I want the prize of everlasting life in the end. My flesh does not control me, the Holy Spirit does.
            Is that true 100% of the time? Of course not, THAT would be a lie. I have cursed, made fun of my fellow man, have not loved my neighbor as myself, lied, been deceitful. I will even admit that I watch shows and movies that are completely the contrary to the Bible’s teachings. That the beauty of God though. He made it so I recognize sin for what it is, know that this fleshly body will pay for those sins ( wages of sin is death) and that my Spirit no longer has to be lost because of it. I accepted the gift of God’s mercy and eternal life. I strive everyday to continue to stay on the path of righteousness that God led me on. He has always wanted that. In turn, I make it my mission to follow His Word to the best of my abilities, and since His Word tells me that committing any sexual act outside of my marriage to my wife (between a man and woman who is married in the eyes of God), is sin and I will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven, the that’s what i will do. It’s written very plainly and several times throughout the Word.
            He has created you and me to have our own unique relationship with him. Nothing more nothing less. If you truly believe that having sex with the same gender is ok in the eyes of your creator God, then by all means do it. Only you will know in the end being judged by Him whether or not you made the right choice.Dissecting my words, twisting meanings to suit your pleasures, or you general attempts to come on this site to discredit the Bible and it’s teachings ( which have been the same meanings for way longer then you and man’s crazy evolutionary and big bang theorys) will not change that. Neither will you change God teachings not matter how you justify it or how many people you’ve come across and what you’ve experienced
            Judgement is coming very soon. Deny it all you want, but that’s what I am focused on now. As Christians all we can do (since the liberal media and our government has been taking God out of our country slowly but surely)is continue to present the Word as best as we can, pray for those that reject that word (in any and all forms), and wait patiently until God calls us home.
            Without running around another circle, I’ll end it here. I really hope you take the time and read the whole response and not cherry pick one or two things out to argue about, because I just won’t answer. I will continue to pray for revelations in all of your lives (Christians and skeptics alike) because that’s what God wants of me and I will not deny him.
            God Bless each and every one of you and have a blessed day!!!

          • sylviacroft

            I make a choice everyday to live according to God’s Word and not according to my feelings or emotions. I make a choice everyday to deny myself and take up His cross and follow Him. Luke 9:23

          • Homer for God

            Amen to that Sylvia. God is awesome!!!

          • Covered California

            No, it’s not.

          • Dave L

            The “Act” is a kind way of putting it. It refers in part to a man using another’s lower intestine or mouth as a substitute for a woman.

            Only when men and women come together, it often times produces babies.

            When two men come together it produces a foul mess. Indeed, “Act” is a very kind way of putting it.

          • StereoMan

            I guess they didn’t have any trouble figuring out how to make it work for them. They probably get just as grossed out by your “foul mess”.

          • Dave L

            What makes you think the creation of human life in the womb is a “foul mess”?

          • StereoMan

            I assumed you meant the sexual act.

          • Dave L

            Are you trying to justify the Homosexual “Act” by the Heterosexual? It doesn’t work that way. God designed the womb for procreation of our species. He designed the Lower Intestine for discharging digested food.

          • StereoMan

            Why are you mentioning the lower intestine?

          • Dave L

            I could be more technical or explicit but this conveys the thought. The Apostle Paul says it is a shame to speak of the works of darkness people do in secret.

          • StereoMan

            Not necessary. I know what you meant to say. You are talking about the practice of sodomy. Only problem is, like so many others, you make this practice out to be a strictly homosexual act. Ask yourself how many lesbians engage in it. Ask yourself how many straight people do (hint: it’s a lot more than you think). Finally, not all homosexual men engage in it. Now tell me how it’s relevant to our discussion.

          • Dave L

            How do you seem to know so much about this?

          • StereoMan

            Because of my work as a psychiatric social worker.

          • Dave L

            It seems you would see a lot of these people….

          • LadyGreenEyes

            …and he sees no connection. Unreal, isn’t it?

          • LadyGreenEyes

            So, you talk to people with head problems, and you don’t see the connection?!?

          • StereoMan

            There is no connection.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Of course there is. People with mental issues, discussing their sexual deviance, and you can’t see a connection……go figure.

          • StereoMan

            Homosexuality isn’t “deviance”, lady. Get your head out of the stone ages.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Get your head out of…..oh, never mind.

          • StereoMan

            I hope you aren’t teaching your kids your beliefs. Child abuse is serious business and it isn’t always physical.

          • Joe Dokes

            Sodomites and their defenders/enablers do NOT like accurate descriptions of what they actually do.

          • Jim H

            I think he is saying that if heterosexual intercourse isn’t messy, why do you need a towel when you’re done?

          • Dave L

            Why do you wipe?

          • Jim H

            Yes. Just like I wipe the dipstick when I check the oil in my car. Don’t you?

          • Dave L

            Automotive oil is not laced with bacteria. Are you sure wiping is enough?

          • Jim H

            I misunderstood your reply. I thought you meant to say: “Why, do you wipe?” I am getting so I expect people to not punctuate. My bad!
            Were you actually asking why I wiped myself off after heterosexual intercourse?
            Do you seriously want me to explain that?

          • Dave L

            Your call….

          • LadyGreenEyes

            I guess you never heard of the book, The Act of Marriage, eh? Your argument was just demolished.

          • StereoMan

            The point is no one in conversation ever calls it an “act” unless it’s gay people they are picking on.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            The point was, you were wrong.

          • StereoMan

            Considering that you do not know the difference between the relationships people have with their kids and romantic relationships, do you think you are qualified to offer an opinion?

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Considering that your little claim was blown clean out of the water, you clearly aren’t qualified.

          • StereoMan

            My claim was blown out of the water? So you have people urging you not to “act on” your attraction to your husband? Do you even have a clue?

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Your claim was that the word “act” was never used to describe sexual relations between a man and a woman. I showed that you were wrong. Trying to turn it into something else now is lame.

          • StereoMan

            No, my claim was not that the word “act” was NEVER used – go see if you see that word NEVER in there. My point was more often than necessary, anti-gay people who say the attraction isn’t the sin but the ACT is, or “if you ACT on it,” trivializes a loving relationship just because two people are gay. So you didn’t “blow me out of the water”, you were overly pedantic and too literal.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Your post, from four days ago –
            “Some of you people amaze me, you really do. The “ACT”! So how come with straight people you call it “sexual intercourse” or “making love’ but with homosexuals it’s an “act”?” I pointed to proof that the word isn’t used the way you implied, and now you want to act like that wasn’t what you claimed? Tsk, tsk.

          • StereoMan

            It WASN’T what I claimed because I wasn’t claiming it was true IN EVERY SINGLE CASE as you suggest. Tsk. tsk.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            It wasn’t true at all, as you claimed. Wow, some people really can’t handle being told they were mistaken…..

          • StereoMan

            Except that it WAS true, and still is. Time for you to let this go.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            No, it wasn’t true. A book was written calling sexual activity between husband and wife the ACT of marriage. An entire book. Tie for you to concede.

          • StereoMan

            Saying “act on it” is clearly and obviously the issue here. People like you say that when talking about homosexuals but you don’t say it when talking about yourselves. You lose.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Actually, they do, all the time.

        • Jim H

          “His Word is alive and the same as yesterday, today and the days to come!!”

          So do you have your hair done, wear make-up, jewelry, buy nice clothing, etc.?

          1 Timothy 2:9-10:

          Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.…

          1 Peter 3:3

          Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes.

      • LadyGreenEyes

        Love and sex aren’t the same thing. I love a lot of people with whom I would never, ever consider having sex.

        • StereoMan

          In relationships where people are in love with one another, both things are present.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            Really? My kids and I are in relationships, and love one another, and there isn’t sex present. Perhaps you shouldn’t generalize.

          • StereoMan

            Stop thinking about the way you think of your kids and think instead of how you feel about your husband, maybe, since that’s more along the lines of what I’m obviously talking about.

          • LadyGreenEyes

            You didn’t say “romantic relationships”; you simply said relationships. Don’t get all annoyed because you failed to say what you meant.

    • Rob

      Jesus never said being gay was a sin.

      • LadyGreenEyes

        There is no “being gay”. There is a sin called homosexuality, and that is ling with one of the same sex, and yes, He called that a sin. You seem to forget, or perhaps have not learned, that the entire Bible is the Word of God, and Jesus is God.

    • LadyGreenEyes

      Church members should be saved, and salvation includes renouncing sin. No one truly saved condones a sin such as homosexuality. Allowing sinners entry, that t hey may learn, is one thing. Welcoming as members those who flaunt their sin is quite another. Which do you mean when you say to “welcome” them”? It isn’t clear from your post.

  • Susan Moore

    Love everyone, does not mean we have to approve as the Bible does not. The percentage is very small from what I have read. I am just so tired of all the todo about it, but stop pushing the commercials etc. and stop forcing me to see this.

    • http://textsincontext.wordpress.com Michael Snow

      Amen. So much confusion on ‘love’ but Christians have failed to study to be able to clarify this to their friends and family. We need to be salt in our society instead of tossed into the street a la Mat. 5:13. See the link in my first comment above.

    • Covered California

      Maybe you should contact Christian news network and tell them you’re tired of these articles.

      • All In

        Maybe you could find another discussion to troll in.

  • All In

    If the church condones sin, that means there is no reason for a Savior. If there isn’t any reason for a Savior, there isn’t any reason for church.

    Churches that condone sin become oxymorons.

  • katrina

    Well Campolo if you are meant to be a representative for our Lord need l remind you what his word tells us about men lusting after men and women with women. Oh, it must be a different bible than what l read. Remember what awaits you because you are going against Gods word by saying it’s ok. Well l have some news for you, God says it’s not ok and you had better change your ways before it’s too late!!?

  • All In

    Homosexuals continue to assert they have no choice. Of course they have a choice! Who is forcing them to make love to a ss partner?

    • Covered California

      No one… Of course having sex is a choice. Your orientation is not.

      • All In

        Of course it is a choice! But you are just another Internet troll with multiple accounts. You are the last person someone would believe.

        • Covered California

          Richard you have multiple accounts too lol your former one on this site was “Richard.” Theres a reason not even most of the Christians on here engage with you. do you have some sort of mental handicap? I’m starting to think there’s something truly wrong with you and if that’s the case in going to stop engaging. But the other part of me thinks you’re just an old overweight troll

        • Covered California

          Why did you choose to like girls over guys? You said “of course it’s a choice!” But you have never been able to tell me why you decided to like girls over guys.

  • ronald54321

    Is he also going to advocate fornication like the churches of the Left did in the early 1960’s?

  • Bry

    So are we supposed to ignore what the Bible says now and go with popular public belief? If you ignore the Bible then you are no longer a Christian church, or as it is said, you are creating God into your image. Covenant relationship and marriage means man and woman and God, His grand design. I personally don’t care if gay people go to church, they have as much right to be there as any of us sinners, but once the church turns their back on the Bible, the very word of God, then they are just a club.

  • Mr. Avatar

    Being a Christian implies believing the bible – not parts of the bible and ignoring the parts that are not convenient.

    • Covered California

      Including the old testament?

      • Martin Walsh

        Yes, it’s all God’s word. And before you come back, with your internet cut and paste, not all parts of the law are still applicable today. The moral law is though.

  • Millard

    It’s not the accepting the queers part thats totally wrong, its using that part to get people to accept their perverted behavior.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Many in false religion will quietly support the acceptance of homosexuality among what appears to be Christianity. There are varying degrees. People like to mimic others in order to steal attention to themselves, so they will simply go with the flow of false religion and be lauded by others in false religion. Satan appears of an angel of light, so his ministers appear as ministers of righteousness. It’s been going on for hundreds of years. What we’re seeing now is just another compromise.

    Never assume people are associated, simply because they use the same descriptive words about God, Jesus, and the Scriptures. Deceivers are both obvious and extremely subtle. Also watch for people making a “big noise” to draw attention to themselves, only because they want to be recognized as someone who loves the LORD. The Devil knows that people make assumptive associations and uses this to deceive.

    Whether a prominent person or organization accepts this or that, Christianity has always been centered on knowing Jesus, the Son of God, one-on-one through the Presence and Power of the Holy Spirit. When we die, we won’t be accountable for what Campolo or Neff or anyone else believed and said, we will give an account for ourselves alone.

  • Reason2012

    There’s no such thing as homosexuals – only people who currently enjoy homosexuality. And adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic, but the product of indoctrination, confusion, mental instability and/or abuse.

    And this is what God says about sin and specifically homosexuality:

    Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [sodomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

    Jude 1:7 ”Even as_Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Luke 17:29 ”[Jesus said] But the same day that Lot went out of_Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

    Matthew 19:4-6 ”And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus made it quite clear God made us male and female so that a man will leave his father and mother (not two fathers, not three mothers and so on) and cleave onto his wife (not his husband and so on).

    The Word of God rebukes us all – even if we all try to say we don’t believe the Bible, the very Word of God will be our judge when we face Him. And God is a righteous judge and will judge us all – not turn a blind eye to our sin. Do not be deceived by the world: it’s God we will have to convince that His word was a lie, not men. What happened in Noah’s day when the entire world rejected God? Did God spare them because there were so many? No – they all perished except for Noah and his family!

    Proverbs 9:10 ”The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

    God spared not His chosen people – we are kidding ourselves if we think He will spare the United States of America if we choose to blatantly turn away from Him.

    Jeremiah 12:17 ”But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.”

    Genesis 19:7-9 “And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. (8) Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. (9) And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.”

    Luke 17:28-30 “So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. (30) Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

    Romans 1:18-32 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

    The entire Bible points out men having_sex with men is an abomination. Likewise woman having_sex with women. It’s not just Paul that pointed it out.

    Genesis 19:4-13 “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them [men wanting to have_sex with men].

    And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing [he offers his daughters to be raped to keep them from having_sex with another man – shows rape is not the issue but male on male_sex]; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”

    Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

    Even cross-dressing is an abomination:

    Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17 “There shall be no_whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”

    1 Kings 22:46 “And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.”

    1 Kings 15:11-12 “And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”

    2 Kings 23:7 “And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

    And the “pride” parades about homosexuality are more of the same.

    Matthew 19:4-5 “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

    Not father and father. Not mother and mother. Not his husband. And only two people off opposite gender can become “one flesh” by_intercourse.

    1 Corinthians 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [sodomites],”

    1 Timothy 1:10 “For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [sodomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

    Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

    Thinking those false things for yourself is one thing, but I would stop trying to convince others they can sin all they want and have homosexual relations all they want – their_blood would be on your hands.

    • Richard

      Well done Reason2012 !

      I thank you for these scriptures, it’s about time someone pointed out ” What GOD has to say about it ” Again well done.

  • NWaff

    I suspect Tony David and Neff Carpool would embrace a loving relationship between a man and his father’s wife – the very sexually immoral thing which Paul said should be kicked out of the church in 1 Corinthians 5.
    .
    Between Tony David, Neff Carpool and the Apostle Paul – Paul must be the narrow-minded, intolerant stupid one.

    • BalancedMind

      Paul is by more and more recognized as the fraud he is.

  • Jacob Park

    Even “IF” homosexuality were part of someone’s innate disposition (I’m not saying it is, but “IF”), the it still is not OK for someone who is a Bible believing Christian to say “it’s not a sin” (just like any other sin…) why? Because creation is fallen, the created order is broken. Read the whole Bible and keep things in context. Things are broken, and Jesus Christ was the one who made a way for things to be restored. That’s one of the reasons we don’t just look at things that are broken and say “that’s perfectly ok”, no, we struggle to make things better and point things to the way they were created to be.

    This is not a judgemental post, I struggle with all sorts of sins.. we all struggle with different vices of different degrees. And we will always struggle until we meet our maker. But we don’t excuse things because they are difficult to deal with…

    “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.” – Chesterton

  • robertzaccour

    There’s a difference in accepting people that are imperfect and accepting people that choose to live in sin.

    • BalancedMind

      It is not up to you to judge

      • robertzaccour

        I’m not being judgemental. Nobody is perfect.

  • Melancholy Man

    Most of you are going strictly by the Bible. But the accounts in the New Testament that address homosexuality are not reflective of civilized individuals nor loving committed relationships. They only seem to reflect lust-crazed barbarians. All Christians are given the Holy Spirit upon conversion who’s ministry it is to, “GUIDE YOU IN ALL TRUTH” (John 16:13). I have been a Christian for 29 years and I still have not been able to come to a definitive opinion on all issues “gay.” I have been asking the Holy Spirit for a declaration of “truth” concerning gays for some time now and He has yet to respond. I am beginning to wonder if these gay-issues are not as black and white as most of you seem to believe. Personally I find homosexuality to be objectionable. But I am not God. I find it difficult to condemn all of gaydom on the basis of the narratives contained in the New Testament alone.

    • All In

      God has already made it clear what He thinks about homosexuality. Why ask for something He has already made very clear?

      For confirmation, see Reason2012’s comments.

      Also see the account of Sodom and Gomorrah and the many references made about it throughout the Bible. There is no ambiguity on this issue.

      • Covered California

        What sin are you living in Richard?

        • All In

          Go and infest some other place, troll.

      • BalancedMind

        I am afraid that your version of the Sodom and Gomorrah story is the post 1300 version, the one that became popular because the then pope needed a reason to declare heresy on the knights templars, so that he could burn them on the stake and take possession of their wealth.

        Till the 1300s, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was interpreted as the sin of greed, inhospitality and great injustice. This is till the version that is supported by the jewish religion, as well as all other references in the bible in their original language (look up ezekiel). Basically you could translate the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah in modern english as being too xxxxxxxx. (given the position of the xxxx regarding taxing of the rich vs poor, the position regarding hispanic migrants, uncompromisingly greedy, etc.)

        (to avoid being deleted, the relevant party has been replaced by xxxxxxxx, so much for freedom of expression).

        For reference purpose:

        Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying “God killed them because they were gay” is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject.

        Consider the following texts:

        *****

        Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.

        Ezekiel 16:46-50

        ******

        the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance…

        Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5

        *****

        The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them…They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land…

        There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a man assaulted his neighbour’s wife and bruised her, they would say to the husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one cut off the ear of his neighbour’s ass, they would order, Give it to him until it grows again.

        If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this “beneficial” medical service”…]

        … they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out…

        If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused to accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)…

        A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab’s name: on account of the maiden (ribah).

        Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

        *****

        Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, ‘In accord with their cry’, but, ‘according to her cry’, referring in particular to the girl.

        Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6

        *****

        R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money. Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7

        *****

        Rabbi Ze era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt… Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven… Rabbi Joshua… said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked…

        Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire. Peletith, daughter of Lot, was wedded to one of the magnates of Sodom. She saw a certain very poor man in the street of the city, and her soul was grieved on his account… Every day when she went out to draw water she put in her bucket all sorts of provisions from her home, and she fed that poor man. The men of Sodom said: How does this poor man live? When they ascertained the facts, they brought her forth to be burnt by fire. She said: Sovereign of all the worlds! maintain my right and my cause (at the hands of) the men of Sodom. And her cry ascended before the Throne of Glory. In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, said: I will now descend and I will see whether the men of Sodom have done according to the cry of this young woman, I will turn her foundation upwards, and the surface thereof shall be turned downwards.Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer

        *****

        Nachmanides commenting on the verse “AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM”.

        Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land… many will come there and they despised charity… they continued provoking and rebelling against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor… In the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because of this sin – i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy – since this sin represented their usual behaviour more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.

        Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century

        ******

        For similar views see Numbers Rabbah 9:24 (midrash), the JPS Torah

        Commentary on Genesis by Nahum M. Sarna, page 135, note #5, and the ‘Stone Edition of the Chumash’ [better known as the Artscroll Chumash] by Mesorah publications, commentary on page 81.So the next time someone tries to use Genesis as an excuse to justify homophobia, we can educate them by giving them these sources to read and consider.

        Shalom,

        Robert Kaiser

        ******************

        Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can’t site a source) about the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna, where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting. “But Rabbi,” said a Councilmember, “we need your comment on this proposed new legislation!” “What new legislation?” said the Gaon. “This was already the law of Sodom, long ago!” And he left. The proposal was dropped.

        Shalom,

        Arthur Waskow

      • BalancedMind

        Jesus did not mention homosexuality AT ALL
        leviticus is not applicable to christians, as the old law was fulfilled by jesus on the cross
        and Paul was a fraud….. I refer to all the contradictions between Paul and Christ.
        Regarding Sodom, see below
        You could call the catholics Paulistians instead of Christians…

    • Martin Walsh

      I recommend you read Robert Gagnon’s work. His work on homosexuality in the Bible and ANE is pretty definitive and scholarly, perhaps the foremost Christian scholar in the field. His website is well worth a visit too.

  • SoundMind

    It is sad to see someone who was trusted fall into Satan’s trap. Welcoming those who refuse to repent of their homosexual choices into congregations near innocent children is not a good idea.

    • Covered California

      Are you really implying homosexuals are pedophiles?

      • SoundMind

        Yes. I researched child sexual abuse and learned who are the perpetrators of these crimes. You can, too.

        • Covered California

          Disgusting. I am attracted to the same sex and am NOT a pedophile. I suppose all black men are criminals too right?

          • SoundMind

            I said nothing about skin color, which is an immutable characteristic. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not inborn but is a Behavioral Choice. Your remark seems rather racist to me.

          • Covered California

            I’m not surprised you didn’t understand it. My point is that you’re going by statistics, and statistically there are more black men in prison than whites, so with your logic all black men should be feared since they’re more likely to be criminals.

          • SoundMind

            I think it’s wise to be aware of crime statistics. Apparently you don’t. That’s your choice.

          • Covered California

            Please share.

          • SoundMind

            I’m not your research assistant. Crime statistics are public information.

          • Covered California

            Lol I see, so throw out claims demonizing an entire group of people yet don’t provide your “statistics.” I guess God really did tell women to remain silent for a reason.

          • SoundMind

            Thank you for your response. The lack of acid was appreciated. I have a different perspective (opinion); but who cares?

          • Covered California

            I really hope you repent for the lie you told tonight. I really don’t want you to die in sin…

          • SoundMind

            I have no fear of that, since I agree with the Creator of Life. The Creator gets to make the rules. Rebelling against them can land someone in hell.

          • Covered California

            A lie is a lie. There’s no “special” lies. If you agreed with God you would know that.

          • Covered California

            You still haven’t responded to my point about using statistics the same way you do to call black people criminals… How convenient.

          • SoundMind

            Some statistics lie, some do not. Some studies have characteristics that would flaunt a normal man’s intelligence to the brink. Your choice is the deciding factor. Should it be removed from the stock pot and put in a stock car race?

          • Covered California

            So you admit you pick and choose which studies you like LOL

          • SoundMind

            We’re all sinners, regardless of the studies we consume. Which are forgivable and which are not is the presumption on which we proceed. Is infatuation with death nearly irreversible? Could be.

          • Covered California

            You make no sense but I agree that we are both sinners

          • SoundMind

            I don’t know what, or if I should even entertain the prerogative to pigeonhole such sensibilities. Can the turkey be blamed for thinking itself wild? If not, who does? But probably it agrees with the whirlwind.

          • BalancedMind

            maybe you want to read up the stuff about Jesus and the pharisee, and about who and who not is going to heaven.
            I think he used the word hypocrite for them. Read it up. You might find it fitting…

            The quotes:
            Matthew 23:
            Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
            5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
            “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
            15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
            Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
            25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
            27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

          • SoundMind

            God made his condemnation of homosexuality Very Clear in the word of God, and that their destiny is certain hell. BTW there’s no such thing as a homosexual Christian. God made a way out of that sin, just as He did for murderers, thieves, and adulterers, etc. Repentance is the first step.

          • BalancedMind

            So what, that doesn’t give you the right to judge people. That is his prerogative.

          • SoundMind

            I definitely have the right to decide with whom I associate, and which policies are family friendly. Basing my viewpoints on the word of God, and by observing the fruits of a lifestyle, I am often able to discern Good from Evil. It seems your approval of homosexuality has caused your good judgement to go awry.

          • BalancedMind

            No worries, nobody wants to associate with you, probably not even god.
            Blinded by your prejudice, judging based on stereo types and things of the outside, you clearly missed the main message of the word of your god. A typical case of the seeing blind.

          • SoundMind

            Your Creator is allowed to make the rules. Dare you take it up with Him?

          • BalancedMind

            I tell you this, first of all this is something between him and me and has nothing to do with you, secondly If he first makes me the way I am, and then judges me the way I am, I will tell him indeed what I think about him. Thirdly, I don’t think you are very good in interpreting what he really wants the rules to be…

          • Covered California

            Homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex. Go check the dictionary. Heterosexuality is not a behavioral choice either. What’s your education level?

          • SoundMind

            You post your accusatory nonsense with an immaculate oblivion to all things tangent to reality it seems. As for your shockingly bizarre allusions to my stance on homosexuality and racism; homosexuality is a sin, just like murder, lying, slander, and hate for God’s other creatures. You post as if you think you’re some sort of authority; the archangel Michael did not presume to pronounce a judgement against Satan, but said, “The LORD rebuke you.” By the way; do you make a habit of grabbing dogs by the ears?

          • Covered California

            You are calling an entire group of people pedophiles lady. You can say that if you want, but I am NOT a pedophile and refuse to let you get away with your lies.

          • SoundMind

            Well CC, I won’t label you per se; but conscious homosexuality seems a bit of an oxymoronic train wreck of thought to me. Just so you know, I’m not being malevolent, just making an observation from my own Christian perspective. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Your post is like…totally ripe for some unhealthy dialogue!

        • Covered California

          So you’re claiming straight people don’t commit sexual abuse?? Do you ever watch the news?

          • SoundMind

            You are twisting my words, saying that I am making claims which I did not. Please stop it.

          • Covered California

            How am I twisting your words? You admitted you believe gay people are pedophiles. That’s a VERY big statement.

          • SoundMind

            “Words have meanings.” Whatever meaning your personal vernacular dictates. I call “folks” who practice the sin of homosexuality wretches. They’ve stolen the word gay, and the hole world says, “That’s alright mama!” to whoever. I had a queer wheelbearing on the back left corner of my pickup truck, so I took it off, threw it in the trash, and promptly replaced it with a straight one. It works better! Perhaps the infamous ACLU will get a big community to organize for a gay wheelbearing march.

          • BalancedMind

            “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
            3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

          • SoundMind

            “Judge righteous judgement” ~Jesus, John 7:24

          • BalancedMind

            Exactly:
            now with context:
            22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath. 23 Now if a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? 24 Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”

            So don’t judge somebody because of his appearance (homosexual), but judge the person because what is inside him (a good person).

          • SoundMind

            Homosexuality is a Choice. It is a Behavior. God condemns it. He calls it Abomination. He describes homosexual minds as Reprobate.
            It is not merely an Appearance, as you claim.
            And, Yes, I am well aware that the devil himself quotes scripture. Bend it, twist it, cut out all the verses you don’t like… you’re not going to change God’s mind, nor that of his followers.

            Homosexuality is morally repugnant;
            …always has been… always will be.

          • Ludlow Porch

            The devil is in everything! He has no limits to whom he influences. His agenda is widespread. He is an equal opportunity employer! As “Dylan” said in song, “You are going to serve somebody. It may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you are going to have to serve somebody!”

        • Ludlow Porch

          Hey, sugga, covered California is from the land that gave the world Granola. The land of “fruits, nuts and flakes!” Also, remember that Californians live on the “fault line,” God put that fault line there for a reason. When He is tired of all their liberal crap, He can dump them in the Pacific!

          • SoundMind

            Hi Ludlow, good to hear from you. Like you, I see cc’s pro-homosexual-death-culture stance and flimsy compost of arrows aimed at wholesomeness, and fired a few spirals to knock him off balance… an easy task when someone’s standing on shifting sand rather than on Rock-solid Truth. A little target practice now and then is a good thing!

          • Ludlow Porch

            I just love your responses! Your wit is awesome. You do have a way with words I so enjoy. Keep it up sugga!

          • SoundMind

            Aw, nice of you to say, thanks much. Your wit’s right up there, too, m’dear. Laughed out loud seeing your comment recommending mailing ear plugs to those intolerant of firing noises on private property. 😀

          • LadyGreenEyes

            I figure the only reason He hasn’t yet is there are good people still living there. He said he’d spare Sodom for ten righteous men. Now, if we could convince all of the good ones to move…..

  • Brenda Golden

    Sad to see people clutching at straws to condone being queer. It’s like pointing at the lizard because you don’t see the alligator. Everything we do is a choice because we have free will.

  • Shosh 7154

    How can you follow the Messiah by participating in an abomination ? (Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.)
    And how can anyone call holy a union between two men having anal sex ?

  • Mileaway

    Let God except queers, I don’t. I won’t. There is NO Q gene but there is mental illness. Homosexuality has been proven to be mental illness. That deserves compassion but not acceptance as the norm. No wonder so many are leaving the churches, the message they are receiving is one of satan!

  • Jim Deferio

    No surprise here. Christianity Today has been very liberal and unBiblical for decades. My wife and I saw that back in the 1980’s. Strangely Charisma Magazine was on the same track to becoming liberal and unBiblical but they returned to their Biblical roots.

    The church fellowships are for CHRISTIANS, not for those claiming a homosexual identity, not for the divorced & remarried, not for the thieves, liars, etc. etc. Evangelism is supposed to take place outside the church (outside the fellowship). A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

  • ThoughtCrimeinProgress

    We live in interesting times. As the Progressives of Progressive Humanism in the West step up their social engineering campaign, it is interesting to see which self-identified believers in Messiah Yehoshua (or Christ Jesus) start conforming to this and how much they conform to this. In doing so, they expose themselves as out of touch with YHVH (God) at best and fake believers at worst.

    As it is written, the Lord is the vine, and we are the branches. And YHVH the Father (God the Father) prunes us, even to the point of cutting us off when we are dead (John 15:1-8). In this way, believers in Messiah Yehoshua are being threshed along with the rest of the world as judgment approaches in these current times.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    I do not understand why Christians feel they have to be so adamantly for or against the two sides on this issue. In Scripture, I see Jesus angering everyone, simply because they wanted him to take a side. But what did he do? He went in the midst of everyone and rebuked them for their heart attitudes. Why do we so seldom follow his example of not condemning, yet not condoning sin? Whatever happened to, “Neither do I condemn you, but go your way and sin no more”? THAT is the attitude the Church must take with homosexuality.

  • Froderic Frankenstein

    I think much of the controversy concerning this issue stems from the fact that Christians no longer suffer church discipline, but still want to appear “Biblically correct.” Homosexuality is the last sin that cowardly preachers can rail against and still be seen as faithful to the Word. God knows we will not allow them to preach against our gluttony, greed or adulteries.

  • LadyGreenEyes

    Some groups ought to be ashamed of themselves for using the Baptist label. It used to mean very Biblical, but some have been co-opted by liberals.

  • Gena B

    There is a fox in the hen house.

  • Gary Daniel

    It was over his head. The disciples, especially Judas said that it was a waste and should have been sold off to feed the poor. Jesus said,” you will always have the poor but you will not always have the Son of Man.” he smelt ghat oil as he hung broken and beaten in the cross. Somebody loved him when he was forsaken. He knew that by the perfume in his hair.
    You adorn yourself. Accentuate your natural beauty and tell anyone who comments negatively that you have permission from me to tell them to go soak their head.