FreeKimDavis.com Purchased to Deceptively Raise Funds for Homosexual Activist Human Rights Campaign

Davis JailThe domain FreeKimDavis.com has been purchased to either deceptively trick Davis’ supporters into giving money to a homosexual activist organization, or to keep supporters from being able to raise funds for her cause.

When the domain is entered, one is redirected to the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) website, specifically its donation page.

“Donate to HRC today. Or give the gift of equality to a friend or loved one,” the page reads. “Please note: An HRC sticker is included as part of your donation.”

A WhoIs search reveals that the domain was purchased on September 3—the same day that Davis was ordered by U.S. District Court Judge David Bunning to serve time in jail until she agrees to issue marriage licenses to homosexuals. However, the registrar’s identifying information is hid by Domains by Proxy, owned by GoDaddy, from which the domain was purchased.

A Redirect Detective search also shows that FreeKimDavis.com is a “301 permanent redirect” to the Human Rights Campaign’s donation page.

“Those wanting to help Kim Davis, the Rowan County, Kentucky clerk jailed for refusing to obey a judge’s edict to violate state law by issuing illegal marriage licenses to gay couples, may be tempted to go to freekimdavis.com, thinking that would be a good place to start. Think again,” writes Joe Newby of Conservative Firing Line.

As of press time, neither HRC, nor its president, Chad Griffin, have issued a statement about the matter or have commented on the redirect as to who might have purchased the domain. HRC could not be reached for comment.

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As previously reported, one of the co-founders of HRC, Terrance Bean, 66, has spent the past year dealing with criminal charges of two counts of third-degree sodomy, a felony, and one count of third-degree sex abuse, a misdemeanor. The charges stemmed from an investigation that involves an alleged sexual encounter with a 15-year-old boy.

One of Bean’s young homosexual lovers, Kiah Lawson, 25, was facing identical charges for his alleged participation in the illicit meeting. The two had been in a dispute after Lawson claimed that he noticed that Bean had placed a camera above his bed to record sexual acts with men.

The outlet Williamette Week reports that documents indicate that Bean “attempted to settle the matter for $40,000 in exchange for Lawson turning over the images and refraining from disclosing Bean’s ‘alleged illicit sexual activities,’ but the deal was called off and Bean later sought to charge Lawson with theft and extortion.”

The charges against Bean and Lawson were dropped after prosecution stated that the now 17-year-old boy was unwilling to testify.

Bean’s Human Rights Campaign, which he co-founded in 1980 with Steve Endean, is said to be the largest homosexual advocacy group in the nation, having over 1.5 million supporters. He also founded the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, and has been one of the largest Democratic donors in Oregon, especially surrounding financial contributions made to Barack Obama’s election efforts, which are stated to be in excess of $1 million dollars.


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  • Michael Morgan

    I just signed up for Christian News, like about 11 minutes ago. Two fold here; I don’t like the articles subject, then I like the Christian stance of the Church. It is always the Christian and the Jew to be tolerant now days; we are! I was told growing up; don’t step on the fuzzy! Like don’t be so tolerant, that we approve!!! Good article, thanks!

    • CIci Girl

      “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions ” GK Chesterton

      • amostpolitedebate

        Being decent and respectful to people who live differently from ourselves: The real problem here

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          True as far as it goes. But churches differ from other organizations in that they are fundamentally about commonality of belief. To criticize a church for being “intolerant” of things it rejects makes little sense.

      • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

        I love Chesterton. But be careful: his common sense might turn you into a Catholic. (lol)

      • Michael Morgan

        Hey CIci, I have no idea what or which you are referring to or why your friend would just refer to a man. But if you guys could explain it might help me. Thank you

    • DNelson

      ” I don’t like the articles subject”

      Why?

      • Michael Morgan

        Hey D, The subject, seems pointless, two guys quit a choir, some guy talked to a news and views group, someone stated in a blog. Someone knows someone who knows a perceived celebrity, a Church leader. I am just waiting for; “who’s on first, what’s on second”. Tolerance comes in when Homosexuality is implied, then for who or whom is to be tolerant. My bad, as I just want to read about the good we all do, not the perceived notions of bad, ugly and hurt feelings, the expected; that we hear every day. What about someone who no one knows of, doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do, and humbly embarrassed being caught at it, not wanting to be noticed. That ever so rare search and find. Hope you have a good day!!!

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    This appears to be a case of good Church discipline.

    • Dave_L

      They’ve got more “church discipline” troubles looming;

      HILLSONG Church head Brian Houston told thousands of his followers it was wrong of him not to report his paedophile father to police, but said other senior church leaders also knew and did nothing.

      dailytelegraph(DOT)com(DOT)au/news/nsw/hillsong-leader-brian-houston-breaks-silence-on-paedophile-father-it-was-wrong-not-to-report-him/story-fni0cx12-1227088167208

      • jmichael39

        Might want to do your research. Brian’s father did these things 30+ years ago and Brian found out when it all came to light. The church board of Hillsong weren’t even involved in any of it. While there were accusations that there was a $10K payoff to the person abused his father, Brian denied that and nothing have to light to even cause an indictment on that matter. Accusations, accusations, accusations.

        There is an article at the Christian post about it.

        • Dave_L

          Why are they no longer sweeping it under the rug if it isn’t an issue?

          • jmichael39

            because it’s not an issue…get it? I know people like you just love to hate on religious people…but spare us your hypocrisy.

          • Dave_L

            I’m a Christian and expect the same obedience to God from them as I require of myself.

          • jmichael39

            You “expect”…how quaint. As for me, I will expect only one thing of myself and never of others…to show people the same mercy and grace God has shown me in my own sinfulness.

          • Dave_L

            If you don’t expect others to show the same mercy and Grace God has shown you in your own sinfulness,….why – preach – against – sin?

            Why are you telling me this if you don’t expect results???

          • jmichael39

            I don’t preach…I live. I live the grace and mercy of God to all people….who are all living in sin…no matter what their sins. Can I identify their sins? Some of them, yes. But I like how Jesus answer those who want to stone the woman caught in adultery. He never once mentioned the sin. He offered the woman a chance to find mercy and grace and then simply said go and sin no more. Still never mentioning which sin(s).

            As to why I wrote that to you it should be obvious…allow me to put it in the words of John MacArthur…to the proud we preach the law and to the humble we preach grace. Time for us all to show some humility.

          • Dave_L

            So what are you getting at? I’m serious, please explain.

          • Shneider

            Dave we all need the grace and mercy. Which you didn’t say we don’t need. Michael we must expect from each other (even while living in grace and mercy and repentance ) to live according to the promises we made to christ. Since the only “opinion ” that counts is God’s. Read what Paul said to the corinthians for not dealing with the man sleeping with his dad’s wife (complacency in the church). Read also galatians how we should admonish each other in grace (being mindful of our weakness ). Read in John the letters how if we do not do what we know is right to do it is counted as sin against (basically a summary of the corinthians )

            Hey if help any Christian we help every Christian bc we all rep the same king. It’s nothing lite to bring shame to God Son.

          • jmichael39

            you can sit here or there or wherever you are and point to this person’s behavior and how it violates such and such a law of God…and do the same thing for the next person. But you accomplish nothing. Do you honestly think that any person who see Christ in you is ever going to easily deny their own sinful nature. People like Charles Finney used to walk into factories and the Spirit of God in him would be so powerful that men working all the way across the factory would, for no apparent reason to any one else, fall to his knees weeping. Finney didn’t say a word about sin to that man. He brought in the Spirit of reconciliation.
            Do you honestly think the best tactic of an ambassador is to ‘confront’ the people of the country where he is assigned with their own wrong and not to bring them the greatness of his own homeland. You are an ambassador of Christ. Bring Christ…Bring Christ’s reconciliation and love.
            No that doesn’t mean we deny something to be sin. Never once. But we don’t need to shove it down people’s throat. If they’re going to choke on something, let it be their own tears as they experience the love of God in its fullness.

          • Dave_L

            “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,” (Acts 7:52–55, KJV 1900)

          • jmichael39

            and your point?

          • Dave_L

            Stephen shows that condemning others for sin is typical. Nicey nice only encourages people to continue sinning. That’s all.

          • jmichael39

            Grace and mercy is ‘nicey nice”…wow…that’s new to me. And if I’m not mistaken, Stephen forgave those who killed him. Too much nicey nice for you?

            BTW, even if you could call that “condemning” sinners, one example hardly makes it “typical”.

          • Dave_L

            “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2, KJV 1900)

          • jmichael39

            And it sounds to me like you’ve place a whole bunch of emphasis on the word “rebuke”.

          • Dave_L

            more-so on “reprove”.

          • jmichael39

            no, reproving has nothing to do with what you were doing.

          • jmichael39

            Oh and btw, those words were directed to Christians regarding other Christians…NOT unbelievers.

          • Dave_L

            Doesn’t matter. In season out of season. Jesus and John the Baptist called unbelievers snakes and serpents, in love.

          • jmichael39

            get it right, Dave…they called the PHARISEES that. Go do a research of what a pharisee was and figure it out.

          • Dave_L

            So the Pharisees were not unbelievers among other Jews broken off for unbelief?

          • jenkins_laurence

            I think you are both right ,it’s a double edged sword ,and must depend on what kind of reception ,the word receives ?
            Acts 13
            they traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. 8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10 “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”

            Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Was doing some research into another biblical subject and discovered that the story of the stoning of the woman for adultery
            was almost certainly not part of the gospels but included much much later . very odd ,given the amount of sermons that must have been done on it.

          • jmichael39

            “almost certainly” in the eyes a very few scholars. The preponderance of biblical scholars do not agree.

          • jenkins_laurence

            To my knowledge the text was not included in any of the early manuscripts until much later ,explain why ?

          • jmichael39

            While there is some about WHERE it’s placed in John, there are few doubts as to Johannan authorship. Here’s some info on the matter. I’m of the opinion that there are more than sufficient early copies to warrant belief it was written by John and belongs in his Gospel account.

            The NIV notes in its text that the earliest and most reliable manuscripts do not have John 7:53-8:11. The NKJV notes in its margin that the verses are not regarded as original by the Nestle- United Bible Societies text but are found in over 900 manuscripts. The RSV notes in its margin that the verses are omitted from the most ancient authorities and that other authorities displace the passage. (The 1946 Edition placed the passage in its margin in italics.) The GN brackets the passages, noting in its margin that it is not found in many manuscripts and early translations or is displaced by other authorities. The LB notes in its margin that the most ancient manuscripts omit the verses.

            The AMP notes in the margin the omission from the older manuscripts but indicates it ought nevertheless to be retained. The NASV brackets the verses and notes in the margin that most of the old manuscripts do not contain them. The NSRB notes in the margin that the passage is not found in some ancient manuscripts but accepts it as genuine. The NEB displaces verses to the end of John’s Gospel. The NWT places the passage in the margin. The JB notes in the margin that on the basis of style, the author is not John and that the oldest manuscripts do not contain the passage.

            Fuller (4) p 1234, (33) p 155, cites Burgon as stating that of 73 copies of John’s Gospel in the British Museum, 61 contain John 7:53-8:11 as found in this passage. Burgon (33) p 155, indicates that this proportioning would be typical for any collection of manuscript copies of John. He also cites, (33) p 149, a further 60 copies, from three distinct lines of ancestry, which agree with this passage. He alludes to 35 of the BM copies which contain a marginal note stating that verses 1-11 are not to be read on Whitsunday. Thus he explains how the Lectionary practice of the early church would have accounted for the omission of the verses from some of the seventy cursives from which they are absent. He also states, (33) p 148, that the subject matter itself would have been sufficient for deletion of the words from many copies, including the oldest uncials, Aleph and B. The verses are also absent from A (5th century), L (8th century), T (5th century) and Delta (9th century) but Codex A has two leaves missing, which in Burgon’s considered view would have contained the verses, while L and Delta exhibit blank spaces which are witnesses FOR, not against, the validity of the verses. See remarks on B in relation to Mark 16:9-20. This leaves only T in agreement with Aleph and B, both notoriously untrustworthy. Burgon, ibid p 156, states that the verses are to be found in the large majority of later copies (i.e. over 900 manuscripts, as the NKJV so obligingly notes.)

            Hills (3) p 159, (38) p 131, states that Papyri 66 and 75 and W omit the verses, in addition to the sources cited by Burgon. D however (6th century), contains them. Burgon (33) p 145-6, 1534, also cites in favour of the passage as found in this passage: Codex D and the Old Latin codices b, c, e ff, g, h, j-see notes under John 5:3b-4 for dates. Note that the Old Latin TEXT dates from the 2nd Century, (17) p77 Jerome (385 AD), who included it in the Vulgate after surveying older Greek copies, stating it was found “in many copies both Greek and Latin”, before 415 AD, (17) p 134 The Ethiopic (5th century), Palestinian Syriac (5th Century), Georgian (5/6th century), some copies of the Armenian (4/5th century), Slavonic, Arabic and Persian versions Ambrose (374 AD), Augustine (396), Chrysologus (433), Faustus (400), Gelasius (492), Pacian (370), Rufinus (400), Sedulius (434), Victorius (457), Vigilius (484) and others The Lectionary practice of the Eastern Church, from earliest times (i.e. the 2nd century.)

            Burgon, ibid p 147, states that the dislocation of John 7:53-8:11 (see notes under RSV and GN) is attributable to four cursives, 13, 69, 124, 346, all evidently from one ancient and corrupt copy.

            Ruckman (2) p 134, cites in favour of the passage, the Didache (3rd century document of Apostolic Teachings), Apostolic Constitutions (4th century) and Eusebius (324 AD) citing Papias (150 AD) as recognizing the passage. The Montanists (2nd century) were also aware of the passage. Ruckman (31) p 333, also cites besides D, uncials M, S and Gamma from the 5th, 8th and 9th centuries in favour of this passage. Concerning authorship of the passage (see note under JB), Hills (38) p 130, states that “arguments from style are notoriously weak.” Berry’s Greek text supports this passage.

          • Bluesman1950

            Isn’t cut and paste useful!

          • jmichael39

            I don’t see you refuting that book yet. Shouldn’t you be reading it instead of talking?

          • Bluesman1950

            The book already refuted by a doctor who investigated the ‘miracles’ and found that they were fraudulent? No I think he already did that work and it doesn’t need repeating.

            Still, you can always try to humiliate me by producing that ‘proof’ so that everyone here who may not have been a party to the earlier discussion can see what the truth is.

            Or you could just hide behind insult, evasion and a demand that I disprove your fantasies, rather than you prove them. I think I know which way you will go!

          • jmichael39

            no, stupid…it was not debunked by anyone. you’re FOS as always and lying to cover up your own BS.

          • Bluesman1950

            OK, how about posting the details of this ‘proof’, i.e. the title, author and ISBN number, if you have it, of the book on which you place so much reliance. For some reason these seem to have mysteriously disappeared from the original thread!

            When I get back off holiday in a week I will see if it is still available (it must be, surely, since it contains such definite proof of god!) and respond accordingly.

          • jmichael39

            what a lazy sob…get the book, idiot. You want to write your rebuttal for you too? Oh here it is, “liar liar, pants on fire”

          • Bluesman1950

            Difficult to get the book when I don’t know the title or author, which have mysteriously been deleted from the previous thread!

            Still, if you want to keep it a secret I’m sure we’ll all understand why!

          • jmichael39

            how convenient…look through the thread, coward. I gave it to you long ago. I do find it ironic that you think a book, whose title and author you can’t recall, has been somehow debunked. You can’t even keep your BS straight.

          • Bluesman1950

            So give us the (deleted) details!

          • jmichael39

            go back and find the original posts idiot…its all there.

          • Bluesman1950

            Deleted! I wonder who did that? Someone worried that people might check it out perhaps? Surely not! After all, proof that ‘pastors raised over 50 people from the dead in Mozambique’ and that a severed arm was regrown through prayer alone, would surely make a laughing stock of atheism.

            So, how about you remind us all of the book so that we can all be convinced. You wouldn’t be scared to would you?

          • jmichael39

            Go to Mozambique, coward. You want to see it live? Go for it. Otherwise, spare us the pretense that you want any evidence whatsoever. You won’t read that book. You won’t go see for yourself. Why do you even pretend to a ration person? No rational person would dismiss anything as impossible just because it doesn’t fit into their preconceived worldviews.

          • Bluesman1950

            I can’t read that book because I do not have the details of it and you’re to scared to let me have them.

          • jmichael39

            You spent all this time avoiding have to deal with the very evidence you originally demanded. And now you’re complaining you don’t know the name of the book when I offered you the name from the beginning.

            And how curious it is that you spent all this time rejecting the evidence of the book, calling it fake, even suggesting it’s already been debunked and didn’t even know the name of the book. What a sad, pathetic liar.

            It’s on amazon dot com / Miracles-H-Richard-Casdorph/dp/088270172X

            Yes, you’ll have to fill that out yourself because disque doesn’t allow URLs to be posted. And guess what, you can the book for less than $5.
            When you’re done with that one, and have refuted the evidence in evidence, let me know. I’ll get you to the next level of debunking your own views on miracle healings.

          • Bluesman1950

            This book appears to relate to the ‘miracles’ alleged to have been performed by Kathryn Kuhlman. In the Uk it would cost at least £13, not $5, due to shipping costs from the USA.

            Apparent cures from medical conditions can be currently unexplained, but that does not mean that they are miracles performed by a god. Following a 1967 fellowship in Philadelphia, Dr. William A. Nolen conducted a case study of 23 people who claimed to have been cured during one of her services. Nolen’s long term follow-ups concluded that there were no cures in those cases. One woman who was said to have been cured of spinal cancer threw away her brace and ran across the stage at Kuhlman’s command; her spine collapsed the next day and she died four months later. I do not propose to repeat the enquiry, for which Dr Nolen was far more qualified than I.

            I was hoping for something that substantiates your allegation of a severed arm regrown through prayer and over 50 people raised from the dead in Mozambique. That would be impressive. Surely if the dead are being raised and severed limbs regrown there must be some recorded evidence of that? I think that they have doctors and video recordings, even in Mozambique.

          • jmichael39

            OMG – stop making up excuses.

            The first book I recommended costs $2.97 from MOTOR CITY BOOKS used.

            NOTHING from the book is about Kuhlman…would you stop lying.

            “I was hoping for something that substantiates your allegation of a severed arm regrown through prayer and over 50 people raised from the dead in Mozambique.” – READ THE BOOK AND REFUTE THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED. When you do we’ll talk about Mozambique. Until then, stop your freakin’ lying and buy the book.

          • TemporaryInVanity

            Our job isn’t to save or convict nonbelievers. It is to love and witness to them through our actions.

          • Dave_L

            “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2)

          • TemporaryInVanity

            If we boast about anything it is to be how Christ saved us. Not the amount of mercy or grace we can extend to one another.

          • jmichael39

            boasting and expecting are not the same thing. So I’m not whether you’re just making a statement or trying to contradict my statement.

  • Jason Millican

    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. 1 Corinthians 5:6-7

    • Mark Simpson

      I agree. If they are on the path of trying to overcome their sin of homosexuality, then you are to be there and help them on the road to dying to that sin. But, on the other hand, if they refuse to change, Paul tells us to cast them out, and to allow satan have his way with them, and when they come back in repentance, then take them in. They know the difference between God’s word of what is right and what is wrong, and we are told to turn from that and live our lives in the power of His Holy Spirit living in us. Just can’t live by the Spirit, and live in sin as well. Can’t be done.

      • DKR777

        I agree. Well said. Any authentic Holy Spirit filled church cannot wink at or condone sin. If they do, they recharacterize themselves as a worldly club – not a Godly church.

  • Dave_L

    “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many [Pentecostals???] will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:20–23, KJV 1900)

    • OlSkoolPreacher

      Why is [Pentacostals???] added to God’s word?

      • Mark Simpson

        Must be a baptist who thinks speaking in tongues is of the devil, or that the power of the Holy Spirit operating in the church was only for the beginning church, and has since departed from us, or has diminished in His power . Don’t know the person, and not judging, just making an observation from the statement, and the way it is posted.

        • Dave_L

          “Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect [complete revelation = New Testament] comes, the partial will pass away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, ESV)

          • david jimenez

            The perfect is Jesus returned….we still wait for that…. 🙂 be at peace ~

          • KenS

            The original language pronouns used represent a thing, not a person being perfect, therefore it is not Jesus returning but rather the bible being finished. also the word for perfect means, finished or complete, again a reference to the bible being completed.

          • david jimenez

            Hmm….that may be. I read a bit further and this clarifies more for me – “1Cor13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
            Our knowledge of the perfect – Jesus – dwells in man once reborn of Spirit, but is not yet pure Spirit. This will be made perfect upon His return. Who today can claim to know the perfect? Only as a shadow of it’s perfection can we know it once we are Spirit born – until the day of His return – when we will be like Him 🙂 I think that would be when the partial will pass away.

          • KenS

            no, it is speaking about knowledge, and knowledge comes from the Word of God; therefore it is the completed Bible, which has already come. Why do you think there have not been any biblical tongues since around 90 AD or so when John completed the Book of Revelation. The tongues that are allegedly spoken by the modern Pentecostal movement started around 1901 and are not biblical, they are not a known human language as our example in Acts chapter 2 shows us. They are like the pagan tongues that Paul was warning the carnal Christians in Corinth about.

          • david jimenez

            Knowledge comes from the Word of God – 🙂 that is Truth. He left us His counselor, the Holy Spirit, to communicate with us, to connect us to Him. It is the Love we have for one another – through His Spirit – that will mark us as His children. That is our salvation and key to entrance into His kingdom – to have Love for one another. Unfortunately, this is where everything comes apart normally in discussion. We tend to skim over this portion of it. Do we Love one another? If we can’t, or if we justify how we Love, should we not stop right there and clear that up first before we claim to speak God’s truth?
            I don’t have any other comments to your points, I apologize. I do see how you come to the various conclusions made, thank you for taking the time.
            In regards to tongues/Pentecostals – I don’t have any personal experience to draw from. I have witnessed this happening, and can not say with utter assurance that it was not of Spirit. I can tell you this, I saw a special person (as in – extra chromosome) receive a gift that I did not understand, and shake like a leaf and speak…. It was hard for me to rationalize this child as someone that may be faking it or being possessed of something pagan.

            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • KenS

            Your welcome and thank you for the wholesome conversation.

            I will tell you that I grew up in the Pentecostal religion and always felt something wasn’t right. I will also tell you that I remember being coached on how to speak in tongues while I thought I was trying to receive the Holy Spirit. It wasn’t until I got into the Word of God and truly looked at the entire Bible in context rather than cherry picking the verses I had been taught to by the Religion I was brought up in that I found the Truth and left that religion and followed Christ.

          • david jimenez

            Be blessed, brother, and thank you as well.

            That coaching would put me in the same position you are in, I feel I can understand where you are coming from better.

            I grew up there as well, but never had that happen in our particular circles. I have heard both sides – in the same Pentecostal/Apostolic setting – of what tongues do or do not signify, and if they are what folks think they are. One point stuck with me always, and it was: Can I say without a shadow of a doubt that what another is experiencing is of the Spirit or not? The answer was – I can say that about Me – but only God knows Their heart of hearts. And as to my experiences – I kept hearing Jesus’s question to Peter over and over…. “Peter, do you Love me?…” Next to that, all else seems to fall into place, and I have found that accomplishing this singular task alone would take many lifetimes….to Feed His Flock the only thing a spiritual babe can grow from. Word. God. Love. Spirit. I keep ending up there anytime I try to have a discussion about God. I think it is a good thing….something that truly brings us together as One in keeping with His Word:

            “John 13:35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

            “Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • jenkins_laurence

            lol

          • Dave_L

            Are you saying the Scriptures are not perfect? Why would Paul say something would end at the end of the world? , When Jesus returns? Wouldn’t that be like saying “when the world ends, people will no longer drive cars” or go to movies? etc.?

          • Emmanuel

            When the world ends, I will no longer need to drive a car. Because, I will be in my spirit form and in heaven. So, yes, when Jesus comes, not the Bible, everything will cease. And driving in heaven is not permitted cuz we will be flying.

          • Dave_L

            So the Bible is not perfect, and it doesn’t do a better job revealing the will of God than piecemeal tongues and prophecy?

          • https://jesusflunky.com JesusFlunky

            Holy Spirit inspired tongues and prophecy never go against the word of God and they do not preach a new gospel. They are there to edify, and exhort. There is no scripture that says tongues ceased. How can we as a group of believers ask non believers come in the spirit of reconciliation to Jesus, if we tear each other apart in things such as tongues.

          • Dave_L

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, KJV 1900)

            “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–20, KJV 1900)

          • https://jesusflunky.com JesusFlunky

            I love the church, and unbelievers too much to get in debate with you on this. Tongues will cease one day therefore, I will not lose a relationship with a brother or sister in Christ, over a gift from the Holy Spirit. God bless you.

          • Dave_L

            Please remember attributing something to the Holy Spirit that is not of the Holy Spirit is very dangerous, if not blasphemy. If you love others, you should look into this.

          • david jimenez

            That is true, but brother, so is saying it is not. They only thing we know/see between two people, is the Love that they profess to have for one another – only God knows the heart, and whence tongues (or lack thereof), are truth.
            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • Dave_L

            “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”” (John 8:31–32, NKJV)

          • david jimenez

            Amen! We shall know the Truth – Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • jenkins_laurence

            So to be precise ,you are claiming the gifts passed away ,at the transfiguration ?

          • Dave_L

            “When that which is perfect (Greek = complete) came.”

          • John Redmane [email protected]

            The miraculous gift of tongues attended the outpouring of God’s spirit at Pentecost, 33 C.E. The approximately 120 disciples assembled in an upper room (possibly near the temple) were thereby enabled to speak about “the magnificent things of God” in the native tongues of the Jews and proselytes who had come to Jerusalem from faraway places for the observance of the festival. This fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy proved that God was using the new Christian congregation and no longer the Jewish congregation. In order to receive the free gift of the holy spirit, the Jews and proselytes had to repent and be baptized in Jesus’ name.—Acts 1:13-15;2:1-47.

            If the person speaking in a tongue was unable to translate, then he did not understand what he himself was saying nor would others who were not familiar with that tongue, or language. Hence, Paul encouraged those having the gift of tongues to pray that they might also translate and thereby edify all listeners. From the foregoing, it can readily be seen why Paul, under inspiration, ranked speaking in tongues as a lesser gift and pointed out that in a congregation he would rather speak five words with his mind (understanding) than 10,000 words in a tongue.—1Co 14:11, 13-19.

            1 Corinthians 12:13, 30: “Truly by one spirit we were all baptized into one body . . . Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they?” (Also 1 Corinthians 14:26)

            1 Corinthians 14:5: “Now I would like for all of you to speak in tongues, but I prefer that you prophesy. Indeed, he that prophesies is greater than he that speaks in tongues, unless, in fact, he translates, that the congregation may receive upbuilding.”

            1 Corinthians 13:8: Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

            Speaking in tongues was never meant to be a permanent gift to followers of Christ, the gift which was received on the day of Pentecost and 33 CE was to be used to teach those who were in Jerusalem at the Festival of firstfruits. Those individuals were baptized and sent back to their homelands to spread the gospel of Christ. After that initial miracle, speaking in tongues was no longer needed as the gospel was able to be spread in all parts of the inhabited earth in individuals own tongue. As you can see, what Paul said in first Corinthians 13:8 above, those tongs and prophecies would cease. Then of course you move into faith, Hebrews 11:1 which reads, “Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen.”

          • david jimenez

            I apologize for the latency in my response – I just saw there was a reply.

            What ends is the knowledge “in part”, it would seem, by what is stated further down (see above). The Word is perfect. Jesus is the Word – He left so that Spirit would return:

            “John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

            That Spirit is what allows us to connect to His kingdom, and connect others to it as well in one unbroken (UNITED) chain/Wall/Church.

            Your first question – As to the physical book written in hundreds of languages and translated many times throughout many generations…. that is up to you. 🙂 I look to the Spirit – that is what Jesus said would show me all things. This is what the apostles feared upon His leaving – and His answer was fairly simple:

            “John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you are all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

            Yes – there is truth in the Bible. The eternal Truth is in the Spirit, in his children, in those that would worship in Spirit and in Truth.

            “John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • Dave_L

            So, you are saying the Scriptures are not reliable and experience is? If so, how does this differ from Liberalism and Neo-orthodoxy? I believe the Pentecostals are the new liberals.

          • david jimenez

            The Scriptures are Truth. The Spirit is Spirit – we must seek communion with His Holy Spirit. That is what he left for us to grow with, to connect back through to the Father, through Love for one another.

          • Dave_L

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23, KJV 1900)

            Notice Faith is a fruit of the Spirit. A person must already have the Holy Spirit before they can believe in Christ. How do you seek something you already have?

          • david jimenez

            “Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

            Having a seed does not meaning having the tree that grows from it – having the tree does not mean having the fruit that grows from it – Once planted – it is the seeking of Light, of Water, of Life with eager leaves and branches that gets it to the point of being fruitful. Throughout it’s life it continues to “seek”, never ceasing, and produces time and time again.
            I know I am being repetitive, but the connection we make amongst ourselves via the Holy Spirit of God that we proclaim is within us, is what feeds us at every moment…. without it, we are nothing (going back to the scripture that started this – 1Cor13)
            “Peter do you Love me?…”
            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • Dave_L

            Only those who were already Born Again (saved) could believe, repent and be baptized. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Baptism) based on the New Birth through the laying on of the Apostles hands.

          • david jimenez

            I apologize for not understanding what you are trying to say.
            If I am reading you right – perhaps this will serve:
            The gift of the Holy Spirit is received once there is repentance (sincere repentance from a heart-felt, soul-felt, head-felt belief) And baptism. The gift of the Holy Spirit is for those born again of Spirit. (See Nicodemus)

            “John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
            Flesh births flesh and spirit births spirit – we have physical gifts 🙂 and we have Spiritual gifts – one from each Birth 🙂
            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • Dave_L

            Thanks for the reply David. This is what I believe Scripture teaches. (simple
            version).

            We are born spiritually dead in Adam and cannot receive Christ. We are
            Totally Depraved and do nothing but sin. Even our best works are for the
            wrong reason.

            Unless God restores spiritual life (the New Birth) to us, we cannot discern Christ. Peter discerned Christ so God had already imparted the New Birth to him.

            “He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 16:15–17)

            Paul says; “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

            John says; “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to
            become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which
            were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:12–13)

            Notice; anyone who receives Christ does so as the result of being Born
            Again. John says; they were born not of blood (Jews). Nor of the will of the
            flesh (free will). Nor of the will of man (Sacraments, infant baptism, etc.) He
            says they received Christ because they were Born of God.

            Paul says; “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

            So, we first have the Holy Spirit in the New Birth. This is why we have faith, This is where Faith grows when we hear the Word. It is the good soil Jesus speaks of that brings forth fruit.

            Baptism of the Holy Spirit;

            The Apostles already had the Holy Spirit (New Birth) when God “Baptized”
            them in the Holy Spirit.

            The Apostles served the same purpose in the writing of the New Testament
            as Moses when he wrote the Torah. God gave them supernatural signs to
            authenticate His word. Today we have Moses in the Torah and the Apostles
            permently fixed in the Church as the New Testament.

            Before the completion of the New Testament God provided piecemeal
            revelation of His word through Tongues and Prophecy. Today since the completion of the New Testament we have “Complete” revelation of His word. We know far more today by putting all the pieces together as we would a puzzle. We see face to face what the early Church only saw as through a glass darkly.

            Tongues and prophecy served their purpose along with the Apostles. Apart
            from God personally Baptizing the Apostles in the Holy Spirit on Pentecost
            and later the Gentiles at Cornielius’ house, only the Apostles could administer the Baptism and the Charismatic Gifts gifts through the laying on of their hands. With the Apostles went the gifts, having served their purpose.

            Today’s claims and examples of having the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic Gifts do not even remotely match those the first century Church had as portrayed in the Scriptures.

          • david jimenez

            Thank you for taking the time to provide much more detail. I can see where you are coming from. Based on the scriptures you quoted a similar line of reasoning would take me there as well. The last point you make is an observation that many of us know but speak to rarely. Why?

            “Today’s claims and examples of having the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic Gifts do not even remotely match those the first century Church had as portrayed in the Scriptures.”

            It would seem that this would something that we could all look at directly and try to answer honestly and attempt to fit into the current level of understanding one may have with scripture. It’s in our base nature that we have to have that make sense. So why do some accept that as an obstacle through which our river of understanding must flow around – while others refuse to see it is there and merely crash into it? Regardless – if both are in Christ BOTH end up flowing down the river of knowledge anyway…one by choice – the other because of the hard truth that – yes it is a rock…. so what is the point? What do we gain by teaching others how to see the rock? We gain nothing Spiritual if all we do is debate endlessly – which is really what the internet is all about, right? One giant “turf” war, except the sides are increasingly ever-filtered and one can find a tepid pool of lifeless water that one can call “the perfect ideology” and from there breed things fellow pool dwellers vehemently agree on and take that out to try and “convert” (infect) other small pools of belief. I ask again, to what effect? WE are called to Love one another – yet we are falling into he same trap everyone else is – and we are ending up in small pools of self proclaimed perfection…..when the true river of knowledge simply wants to carry you away in Spirit and in Truth – but we must allow it to first. Stagnant water – though lively at first – will die. Moving water, rivers of Living Water will not.

            The only real experience I can give you in regards to speaking in tongues is seeing it happen. The most powerful example being a special needs person caught in the throes of something I could almost feel, but could definitely see. She is an innocent, I told myself, to think that she would be faking it was more unbelievable than that it was sincere. I was witnessing it happen and could feel deep confirmation of something. I came to a conclusion – I can’t judge what the other person is experiencing and label it of God, or Not of God – only God can. The scripture tells us that these types of tongues can be for personal edification, by the way. I can leave you with this final thought – I have not personally experienced speaking in tongues, yet I cannot tell you that what another person appears to be experiencing – is or is not. However – I can tell you that I would rather stay in the river 🙂

            Outside of that – I think reading the various discussions on this thread – there have been a vast number of scriptures sometimes even the same ones – for or against speaking in tongues and the Holy Gifts. At the end of the day – can we Love each other? Can we feed each other spiritually?

            “John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
            I believe that’s how we know we are in the river of living water – and how we can tell of perhaps we’re just stuck in one of the tepid pools soon to be lifeless.

            Peace and God’s Love ~ 🙂

          • Dave_L

            Thanks for the reply. I think the test for tongues is that it is an actual unlearned human language. The speaker knows what they are saying as they speak. And they or someone else must translate it into the common language of the hearers. Also, apart from the Pentecost outpouring and the Gentile outpouring at Cornelius’ house, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Charismatic Gifts came only through the original Apostle’s (including Paul’s) hands to authenticate their ministry. Even their miracle working and Scripture writing students could not pass the Charismatic gifts to others.

          • https://jesusflunky.com JesusFlunky

            Southern Baptist are now accepting tongues. ………

          • david jimenez

            Interesting, I had no idea. I wonder at what the folks in the throes of that experience feel? What do they know afterwards? What has been learned?
            I can only imagine.

          • jenkins_laurence

            edification
            ˌɛdɪfɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/
            noun
            formal
            the moral or intellectual instruction or improvement of someone.

          • jenkins_laurence

            One of the gifts you claim have passed away are teaching and discernment , by attempting to misuse the above scripture is an attempt to twist it and propose instead an anti christ doctrine (anti holy spirit) or “another gospel”

            if you do not understand this ,you show the desperate need for the supernatural gifts of discernment and teaching in the body of christ . along with all the other gifts , to attempt to put so much much weight on this scripture and ignore the others that clearly displays the “new testament” church operating in all theses gifts ,

            is to divide the word incorrectly.

            thanks for the lesson lol

            God bless

        • Emmanuel

          Dave attends Macarthur’s church. Pastor stated that he has never felt the presence of God. WHAT?????

          got the name wrong

          • Dave_L

            You lie. I don’t know who McCarthy is. I’m curios now and will probably look it up. I forgive you for lying about me.

          • Emmanuel

            My bad, Pastor Macarthur of Grace Community in Cal. He is big on HS not being significant.

        • Edith

          I am Baptist. I have never spoke in tongues. God has never given me that power. I did not say that I don’t believe in speaking in tongues. I know that God works in mysterious ways and I believe that it is a gift. I have never had that gift. If God gives it to me I will speak in tongues, but I MUST have an interpreter. GOD SPEAKS IN MY HEART ALWAYS. I also do not think the gift of tongues are a requisite for salvation.

          • charles freeman

            Tongues are a gift of the Spirit… evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Tongues can also be spoken in prayer; a “prayer language” if you will. You are correct Edith, tongues is NOT a requisite for salvation. Tongues spoken for edification should be interpreted. Tongues spoken as prayer language is between you and God.

      • Dave_L

        Mainline historic churches do not take part in the things Jesus mentions in identifying those he never knew, “prophecy” etc. Pentecostals do these things. I used brackets around [Pentecostals???] with question marks asking a big and very important question.

        • OlSkoolPreacher

          Acts 2:17–18

          17  “ ‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

          that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

          and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

          and your young men shall see visions,

          and your old men shall dream dreams;

          18  even on my male servants and female servants

          in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

          1 Corinthians 14:5

          I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.

          The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

          Romans 12:6

          We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;

          1 Corinthians 14:39

          Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

          • Dave_L

            All of this happened according to God’s plan fulfilling Joel.

            Later Paul said Tongues and Prophecy would cease when the “perfect” came.

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, KJV 1900)

            The “perfect” cannot mean the New Heavens and Earth because after the “Perfect” comes and the gifts cease, faith, hope, and love remain. We will not need faith or hope in eternity.

            “For now [Tongues and Prophecy] we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:12–13, KJV 1900)

            Tongues and Prophecy gave an incomplete revelation, as through a glass darkly. Only Scripture is “perfect” and gives a full revelation as seeing face to face.

            “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV 1900)

            Why?

            “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:20, KJV 1900)

            Tongues were of private interpretation.

        • jenkins_laurence

          So given Jesus already had the apostles following him and were performing miracles , if this statement was not about the future church as you claim they would “pass away ” once believers had the bible ,who was the statement for ,also it took a while until the whole of the new testament was written and complied .

          so when the last letters ink was drying or the moment they were all compiled ?is this the moment the gifts “passed away”?
          Mark 16:17
          And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

          • Dave_L

            Sorry about your confusion. If you read my other posts in this thread it should provide an answer. We need to submit to God’s Word and not try to adjust it to fit our experience. Consider that Paul was no longer healing by the time the New Testament became complete.

            God healed Epaphroditus late in the New Testament after he had been sick. But He didn’t heal him instantaneously in the book of Acts way.

            He healed him more as we expect today in the prayer of faith James 5:15.

            “Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:25–27, KJV 1900)

            God didn’t use Paul to heal Timothy, a man full to the brim with faith. But Paul told him to use medicine instead.

            “[Timothy] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [medicine] for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23, KJV 1900)

            Nor did Paul lift Trophimus up and speak healing into him as he flung him to his feet as might be the case in Acts. But left him at Miletum sick.

            “Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20, KJV 1900)

            Surely these had faith to be healed if God was still healing in the Book of Acts way. Why didn’t God use Paul to heal them? The answer is that God had already withdrawn the Charismatic Gifts. They no longer served their purpose. God used the gifts to authenticate the Apostles.

            “Truly the signs of an apostle were [notice the past tense] wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12, KJV 1900)

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8, KJV 1900)

            “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part [tongues and prophecy] shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:10, KJV 1900)

          • jenkins_laurence

            Your claim there was only one model for supernatural healing that Jesus gave (instantly) does not stand up to scrutiny .

            When he saw them(Jesus)he said go show yourselves to the priests”as they went ,they were healed” Luke 17:14

            and as we do not know what Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” was it may have well been physical healing ,God heals how and when he decides and is not constrained in his methods by man .
            I think this is why you seem to be attempting to shoe horn a reading of scripture .that just won’t fully fit will it ?

            or is your claim that Mark would ,record this statement for who ? himself or the people who were witnessing the miracles .
            or the christian’s that would later have a complete bible .
            and if so ,did the later christian’s(the ones with the new testament) not have the power to cast demons out ?
            so what of all the demon possessed ,are they just left to get on with it ? I can see why you have ,attempted to cherry pick scripture to support your position , but as you can see it just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny .

            God bless

          • Dave_L

            You are confusing the “Command Gifts” of the Apostles (now extinct) with “Faith Healing” (still available) and the use of Jesus’ name. You should look into this.

          • jenkins_laurence

            One simple question, has knowledge passed away ?

          • Dave_L

            (word of ) Knowledge as a Charismatic Gift no longer exists.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So basically your whole premise rests on the faith hope love not passing away , so if they will not pass away surely they will exist in heaven ? so therefore the passage can be talking of heaven ,unless you believe love will also pass away with hope and faith .

          • Dave_L

            You do not need faith or hope in Heaven.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Do you need love ?

          • Dave_L

            Of course. But notice after tongues and prophecy cease faith, hope, and love remain. Since you do not need faith or hope in Heaven, Paul is speaking about the time between the cessation of the Charismatic Gifts and the end of the world, when the New Heavens and Earth replace everything. Only love is eternal because God is love.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So if you claim the gifts have passed away now , then what is referred to as not passing away is faith hope and love ,which if these things do not pass away must by your reasoning exist in heaven ,so could be what is referred to as being not fully perfected . if so the passage is not referencing the charismatic gifts passing away as you claim.

          • Dave_L

            Paul says that after the gifts cease, we still have faith, hope and love. If the Scriptures are complete (perfect) and they do a more thorough job than tongues and prophecy, then we receive faith and hope from them. The Love however comes from the New Birth (Holy Spirit) and remains eternal after we die and go to Heaven.

          • jenkins_laurence

            where does he say faith and hope do not exist in heaven ,you seem to want your cake and eat it ,surely if these things faith hope and love are listed as the things that do NOT pass away .
            why do you then claim otherwise ? I thought you said this was non negotiable as you stated before we should trust the bible and not our opinions ,faith and hope may exist in heaven in a context we do not understand ,but the bible says they will NOT pass away ,so who is correct the bible or your personal opinion on the matter ? in order to fit in a doctrine you believe ?

          • jenkins_laurence

            also another point ,you brought up ,was past present tense .
            as evidence of your premise.

            does the verse begin with WHEN I spoke ?
            no it begins with” IF I speak”
            present tense . if the prophetic gifts had at that point passed
            away ,why would he be speaking in a present tense ?

          • Dave_L

            The gifts had not passed away during the time of the Corinthian writings.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Also looking back at your posts ,you claim “command gifts” (although I see no where in scripture this distinction) ,are different in some way to a prayer of faith in Jesus name .
            they both require faith and both require the authority given to us in the name of Jesus ,without which we could nothing .
            so yet again to create such a distinction you have to first start with your premise ,not the other way around.

          • Dave_L

            “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12, KJV 1900)

          • jenkins_laurence

            And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

            Mark 16:17

            and how do these powers which accompany those who just “believe”

            differ from the ones that accompany apostles ?

          • jenkins_laurence

            Also if you claim “the prayer of faith” was only available to the body . as you give examples of two members of the body not being instantly healed , so did the apostles who prayed for them not have enough “faith” or is the model of only instantaneous
            miraculous healing you claim are a sign of “command gifts”
            your own interpretation ?. as I pointed out of Jesus’s example of the healing of the lepers that they were healed “as they went”

          • Dave_L

            It is obvious all who Paul didn’t heal had ample faith, as did Paul. The healing by command gifts had ceased by this time. This left only the prayer of faith. Jesus illustrated the difference between the Command Gifts (raising the dead) and the Prayer of Faith when some he “healed as they went”.

            The “signs of an Apostle” = including instantaneous healing and miracles by command ceased with the Apostles.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Sorry mate no offence ,but now you are making no sense
            so you are now claiming the healing of the lepers “as they went”
            was Jesus drawing a distinction of “command gifts” and a prayer of faith to exclusively heal the sick in the body .
            so were all these ten lepers ,now christian’s part of the body
            mate are you just making this up now ? it seems to me you may have attended a conference or bought a book and are determined to ram this premise home and attempt to make it fit at all costs to the rest of scripture

          • Dave_L

            Show some examples of the Command Gifts, raising the dead, amputated limbs replaced, twisted limbs restored whole, etc. today and perhaps we can make adjustments.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So the gifts ,haven’t passed away according to you at the time this statement was uttered ,and had nothing to do with being one of the twelve? as Paul was also an apostle ,but then claim at some point in Paul,s ministry they did between this letter to the Corinthians and the letter to the Phillipians an estimated five years ,in which time you claim the new testament bible had been completed compiled and presumably distributed would be another requirement given your premise ?,also just looking up your reference in James ,I see that James is considered by most scholars ,to have been written much later than Phillipians ,so is James not scripture ? you also claim Jesus himself illustrated this distinction between the prayer of faith and the “command gifts”,although he made no such verbal statement of the kind to accompany the miracle of the healing of the lepers”as they went” to highlight the distinction of your claims.,

            can I also clarify whether or not ,you believe the prayer of faith to

            heal the sick is exclusively for those in the body or also for those out with it .

            if so ,how given those outwith it ,would have little knowledge of

            theological hermeneutics ,and given your claim these “command gifts” were specifically and exclusively to endorse the sovereign power of Jesus and his words and they had now passed away,how would that distinction be clear to someone outwith the body which is what you claim is the specific reason for a shift from gifts ,to prayers of faith , of which I can see no discernible difference other than your opinion

            He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!” John 9:25

          • Dave_L

            “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12)

            No original Apostles = none of the above.

          • jenkins_laurence

            could you clarify whether the prayer of faith only applies to those in the body or also outside it ?

          • Dave_L

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

            Only those united to Christ through the New Birth (Holy Spirit) have proper faith. Those united to Jesus through the New Birth naturally believe the Gospel and repent when they hear it.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So you are unable to answer my questions on the issue ,
            but rather infer I am not a christian ,and do not have the holy spirit ,if I do not accept your claims .well I suppose that is one way to avoid a question an inferred accusation
            I am baptized in the holy spirit and fire ,streams of living water flow from my inner most being, and the joy of the Lord is my strength . as scripture states ,you would be easily able to defend your position on the subject ,by empowerment of the holy spirit ,instead you have chosen to infer that anyone who doesn’t accept your personal interpretation of scripture on the matter is not a christian ,does not have the holy spirit and is therefore demonic ,after all attempts to misrepresent scripture have failed

            , “Only those united to Christ through the New Birth (Holy Spirit) have proper faith. Those united to Jesus through the New Birth naturally believe the Gospel and repent when they hear it.”
            Amen

          • jenkins_laurence

            was Paul an original apostle ?

          • Dave_L

            “After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” (1 Corinthians 15:7–9, KJV 1900)

          • jenkins_laurence

            you have failed to even attempt to address , any of the points I have raised . “I will give you a tongue no man can refute ”

            “Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction.”

          • Dave_L

            So show me where I’m wrong in what I’ve said so far. I’ve pointed out your errors in accordance to the verse you just quoted.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Unanswered question one .If you claim the transition from gifts to the distinction of “prayers of faith” was between the letters to the Corinthians and phillipians . (as you claim Phillipians displays this ,in a christian not being miraculously healed)
            why then do you claim this transition would only take palce after the completion of the new testament as text ,when another example you give in James came much later and is also scripture ?)

            question two ,where does Jesus make the distinction of the healing of the lepers “as they went” to be a model of the “prayer of faith” ?

            question three ,doe’s “the prayer of faith” extend to those outwith the body ? if your claim that the healing of the lepers
            was an example of the distinction of the prayer of faith
            were they all then Christain’s , if so why did only one return to Jesus ?

            lets begin with these

          • jenkins_laurence

            Forth question .

            If as you claim the verses in 1 Corinthians refer to the passing away of the gifts ,at a future date .between this letter and the example you give of phillipian’s and the requirement for this transition being there was no more revelation from apostles ?

            is not Phillipians to be considered revelatory scripture from an apostle ?

            if it is ,then how can you then justify this as an example of your position of the
            transition to “prayers of faith” over gifts at or before this point ?

          • Dave_L

            We no longer see the Gifts in the late New Testament writings nor by the time John’s disciples passed away. Since Scripture shows the Gifts ceased with the Apostles, but James says the prayer of faith remains, what other conclusion is there?

          • jenkins_laurence

            Again you avoid my questions and leap to an assumption based on your own premise ,as you know your very own conditions for the transition of gifts to prayers of faith(which effective prayer doesn’t require faith) have been breached .

            so let us go through it slowly so there is no escaping the logic

            we have already agreed upon Paul was an apostle .

            o.k do you consider the letter to Timothy revealed scripture
            from God transmitted by Paul.

            if so

            the criteria for the gifts transitioning to the “prayer of faith”

            was A . all revelation from the apostles of Gods word
            had been completed

            your example is a denial ,of your own precept .

          • jenkins_laurence

            Now please answer my next question .

            where does Jesus state the healing of the lepers is an example of the coming transition to the passing away of “gifts” to the “prayer of faith” ?

          • Dave_L

            There was no transition to the Prayer of Faith that I’m aware of. Only a cessation of Apostolic Signs and Wonders.

          • jenkins_laurence

            You gave an example in Timothy of what you claim was a clear sign of the cessation of Apostolic signs and wonders ,because he advised timothy (sounds more like a water sanitation issue than a clear sign of the cessation of the miraculous gift of healing to me )to drink not only water but a little wine for his frequent infirmities ? so Paul’s letter to Timothy was from Paul (an apostle) and is considered the revelatory word of God inspired directly by the holy spirit . these two things going against the conditions you set for the cessation of gifts ,so then how can you possibly then use it as an example ?

          • Dave_L

            Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Abraham, Moses, even Abel had the Holy Spirit and faith. All who Jesus healed had the Holy Spirit and faith. When the Apostolic Signs (Charismatic Gifts) ceased. people still had, as they do now, the Holy Spirit and faith.

          • jenkins_laurence

            the signs and wonders have not ceased ,you are confusing the holy spirit being “with” someone and the indwelling of the holy spirit through pentecost ,or Jesus would not have stated .

            “But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.” a subtle but distinct difference of the manifesting of the holy spirit.

          • Dave_L

            It appears you are reading into Scripture and idea foreign to the text. I have the “advocate” and the Holy Spirit just as promised.

          • jenkins_laurence

            It may appear to you ,I also have the holy spirit,

            if there was no distinction of how the holy spirit would specifically manifest himself after pentecost ,why would Jesus

            make such a statement ,”But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you” John 16:7

            there was plainly a clear transition about to take place of how the holy spirit would manifest . in contrast to the old and new testament up to the point of pentecost .

            you seem to have quite a skewed view of scripture ,if you do not grasp this

          • Dave_L

            Yes, but it was not in the temporary gifts. It is in his completed Word written by the Holy Spirit. I think of the Doctrines derived from the Word that the early Church didn’t have. Nor the church of old. Many shun Doctrine today but for those who can look into the depths of God through it, tremendous blessings follow.

          • jenkins_laurence

            O.k I’m getting you now ,what you believe is the holy spirit and healing existed in the exact same way as the old testament as they do now ,and only the “command gifts” were a shift from the status quo , then once Jesus and the bible had been proven by them it was back to “normal” nah mate that’s not it as we clearly see from Jesus’s statement that “But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you” John 16:7 how the holy spirit manifested was about to subtlety but radically change.

            that seems to be your problem right there buddy .

          • Dave_L

            The “Comforter” is Scripture Completed. Check it out. the description of the Comforter is a perfect match to the role of Scripture.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Yep despite the evil reports ,the latter house is greater than the former

            I think this is what we call a closer ,given your claim that prophesies shall (edit HAVE)passed away .and were strictly reserved for
            “command gifts” of the apostles.

            “‘And in the LAST DAYS it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ …

            Acts 2:17-22

          • Dave_L

            Peter says this was being fulfilled at Pentecost. Don’t overlook Old Testament symbolism when forming your conclusions.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Bye

          • Dave_L

            I enjoyed our discussion and some of your challenges have helped clear up some areas of thought for me. Thanks for your time.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So the the Apostles operated in miraculous signs and wonders
            but also separate from this .had the ability to use instead “the prayer of faith” to heal ,given as you claim “there was no transition” so how did they tell them apart ?

          • Dave_L

            In using the “Command Gifts”, Peter sensed the lame man had faith to be healed (He had the Holy Spirit and faith). Peter grabbed him and pulled him up and commanded his healing in Jesus’ name. James in contrast says the prayer of faith will save the sick. We do not see the Apostles using the prayer of faith or even advocating it until James. Paul says he left others sick but God healed Epharoditus (probably prayer of faith) when Paul obviously no longer commanded healing.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So cutting a long story short ,what you are claiming is we should expect less effective results ,from our prayers (greater things shall you do ) and that is how we identify when the cessation of
            signs and wonders occurred ,and anything purporting to be a sign and a wonder or speaking in tongues to edify ones own spirit or bring a prophetic word of knowledge to encourage the body ,or the
            gift of being able to speak in other languages is evil and from the devil. and the evidence for this you give is upon Timothy may have had a recurring issue with a sensitive stomach from what we can only presume wasn’t bottled mineral water .

          • jenkins_laurence

            Whats your churches mission statement ,expect a miracle ,but not a very big one ?

          • jenkins_laurence

            Given that by the same standard you claim Timothy a clear example of the cessation of gifts ,would also be an example
            of the effectiveness of “the prayer of faith” being unable to heal a belly ache .

          • jenkins_laurence

            Your interpretation of scripture is evil on this subject ,with the only results being to sow doubt ,confusion unbelief ,and attempt to relegate the the power of the holy spirit and the grace mercy and love of God ..

          • Dave_L

            The reality is, the Command Gifts (Apostles) exist only in Scripture today. Scripture is complete (Perfect). With Faith comes Divine Health and healing as always throughout and since Old Testament times. Divine Health is the norm, faith healing is for repair.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So i take from your last post ,you believe we are not anymore commissioned to pray for healing and deliverance for non Christains as a sign and a wonder ?

          • Dave_L

            Jesus and the Apostles most always looked for faith in those they ministered to. They looked for faith in those who brought the sick for healing. These were all Born Again or they would be unbelievers. Jesus could not do many marvelous works because of the unbelief of some.

            Why? Nothing can thwart God. But unless a person is atoned for by Christ, evidenced by their faith (New Birth) God will not do them any good and heal them because they are under his wrath.

          • jenkins_laurence

            “Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

            John 14:12 please give an example ,of the apostles fulfilling this prophecy from the new testament . if not
            who exactly would fulfill it ?

          • jenkins_laurence

            The “prayer of faith” no one is disputing all prayers work by someone having faith ,or they would not work .the claim of the example you give of the cessation of signs and wonders ,is they are not as effective , so how on earth would we fulfill the prophecy of Jesus that “greater things shall you do ” if your evidence is an unhealed upset stomach ? you have drawn a false dichotomy of the the things you claim that will NOT pass away and are here now and are perfected ,in the same breath claiming that two of them will .
            while effectively accusing any ministry that has manifested a sign or wonder or the speaking of tongues or and prophetic words of being demonically influenced.

          • Dave_L

            Again we must not read ideas into the text, but learn from the text. I must interpret “greater works” differently from you. I haven’t seen any miracles yet greater than Jesus’ or the Apostle’s. Especially from today’s “Charismatics”. Possibly greater works refer to global evangelism?

          • jenkins_laurence

            On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

          • Dave_L

            So?

          • jenkins_laurence

            As you have not answered the question I have asked you at least
            five times ,can someone who is not a christian be healed , by a christian ,given your premise of signs and wonders “passing away ” ?

          • Dave_L

            Not apart from Christ’s atonement applied directly to them.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Then have the hypocrisy and mockery ,to ask where they are ?

          • jenkins_laurence

            So not just the “super apostles” then but also those who had a vision of Jesus .?

          • Dave_L

            “And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” (1 Corinthians 15:8–9) Paul says he saw Jesus.

          • jenkins_laurence

            Crippled man at Lystra is healed. “And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother’s womb, who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, Stand up straight on your feet! And he leaped and walked” [Acts 14:8-10 and Acts 14:8-10].

          • jenkins_laurence

            Deliverance of girl with a spirit of divination. “Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, ‘These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation’. And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, ‘I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her’. And he came out that very hour” [Acts 16:16-18

          • Dave_L

            Yes. We have the same authority in Jesus’ name today. But this does not mean we have the signs that God used to confirm the Apostle’s ministry. Nor does it mean the Scriptures are not complete, still being written using tongues and prophecy. Especially using examples we hear today.

          • jenkins_laurence

            So can you give me a precise point you claim the(from the new testament) the New testament was completed ,compiled .and the gifts therefore “passed away”
            can you not see ,how you are caught in a futile biblical position?
            if you claim the new testament ,displays the gifts “passing away”
            while Paul was writing them ,on the basis they would pass away ,after it was written ,claiming they show the gifts passed away ect,ect ect
            and round and round we go . ?

          • Dave_L

            This is something I posted earlier, but it should answer your questions.

            Claiming to have the Charismatic Gifts when Scripture clearly states God withdrew them can be blasphemous.

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, KJV 1900)

            The Bible is God’s perfect word. It does completely what tongues and prophecy could only do in part. Peter says; “And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:18–20, KJV 1900)

            They actually heard God speak audibly yet Peter says Scripture is better, a more sure word.

            Today we have faith, hope, and Love;

            The “perfect” cannot be Heaven, because you won’t need faith or hope when there.

            “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13, KJV 1900)

          • jenkins_laurence

            My second very simple question ,is was Paul an apostle ?

          • Dave_L

            Paul was the last of the chief Apostles. “For I suppose I (Paul) was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.” (2 Corinthians 11:5, KJV 1900)

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      They have the full force of Australian law to contend with. Royal Commissions are extremely powerful investigations. The State in the name of The Queen requests and requires all information without any legal right to refuse to answer questions or to withhold any type of evidence, all without let or hindrance They are ignominious and infamous This exposed hypocrisy of this Evangelical Protestant congregation has shown them to be wolves in sheep’s clothing.

  • Disqusdmnj

    I’m sorry, but people were surprised that a Broadway performer was gay?

    Had they ever BEEN to a Broadway show?

    • Happy Critic

      Don’t stereotype.

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      That is actually quite funny.

    • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

      I used to attend a Pentecostal church near Detroit. We staged an elaborate musical based on the life of David. The producer/director was a Christian who had once been a Broadway performer and was very open about his homosexuality. However, he accepted his orientation as a vocation, as a call to chastity. He was loved and respected, all the more so because of his honesty and commitment to his Christian values.

      The issue here is an entirely different matter. There are liberal Protestant denominations that would accept his actions. It would be better to simply find a more hospitable environment than being confrontational in a church that does not support his beliefs..

      • Disqusdmnj

        And I think that’s a perfectly reasonable expectation, to move to a different church that would accept him as is (one that would be considered a false church by many on this site, I’m sure). But in my humble and non-religious opinion, I think it’s horrible that a person can’t fully be who they really are just because of a belief system, or that an organization like a church wouldn’t accept them fully as such… but that is the religious freedom we’re lucky to be granted in this country. And while he (your fellow church-goer) didn’t choose SSA, he certainly has the right to not act on it, should he so choose to be in line with his beliefs and remain part of your church. Gotta support that choice as well!

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          Well reasoned and thoughtful. There is so much hysteria surrounding this that we lose sight of the fact that there are real people involved. If one is a Christian, you must believe that God has a solution, even if it means that we have to humble ourselves. I don’t believe for a minute that any human relationship is beyond the power of His love. Thanks.

          • Disqusdmnj

            I agree, they are real people… and even this site didn’t let me use the term “gay” or “homosexual” to describe them (which means even this post may never get seen). I don’t believe in your god, or anyone else’s, and I don’t believe that you need a religious blessing for a state-sanctioned marriage… but I also believe that if someone is gay and wants to put his beliefs before his self, then more power to him – as long as no one is making him do it.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Thanks for your considerate reply. You raised the issue of marriage which was not part of my original post. However, let me explain how I feel.

            I strongly believe that churches should get entirely out of the business of solemnizing (signing) marriage licenses. Every couple, straight or otherwise, should be required to obtain a marriage license and have it solemnized by a CIVIL official such as a judge or notary. Then they may choose to be married in the religious sense in a church of their choosing, presumably one that recognizes the validity of their union. As you can see, I am not opposed to SSM in the legal sense (not that it would matter now anyway). I am opposed to compelling churches to perform ceremonies contrary to their doctrines. I think this hits a good compromise.

          • April J

            I actually want to applaud both you and Disqusdmnj for raising such respectful opinions about all of this. You have renewed my hope in the readers of this site.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Thanks. I too get sucked into “snarkiness” at times so I think we need to make a deliberate effort to keep the discourse civil.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Back atcha’ on the common decency!

            So, for what it’s worth, I completely agree with you on the idea of “marriage” being a civil document/relationship, outside of whatever a church or temple deems it to be. The reason that people fought for SSM was for exactly those reasons, that they be recognized by the State as a couple, and be afforded the benefits of a straight married couple.

            I also agree that no church should be compelled to changing their doctrine to perform SSM’s, but here’s the deal… that has *not* been part of the SSM movement whatsoever. It has, however, come from people within the Church (depending on the denomination, obviously). I will likely know more people in the LGBT community, atheist/secular community, liberal community, etc… and I can guarantee that not one person wants a church to be forced to perform a marriage they would not condone, be it a SSM, or a Catholic and a Jew, or even a white & black person. I think it’s outrageous that they wouldn’t, but to force a church to do so violates the Church/State separation we want enforced in ever aspect of our government.

            Be well!

          • Horatio Socks

            That might be the worse argument I’ve heard from anyone. The church is in charge of marriages between Christians. That is their job or one of them. Civil law is NOTHING. In fact, there is no reason for a Christian to go to civil law. The reason we do…..we get an exemption!

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I’m confused about your claim of “exemption.” Are you claiming that Christians do not need marriage licenses to be married in the eyes of the state?

      • Edith

        This issue is different because as stated above, “He accepted his orientation and a vocation, as a call to chastity”. It is not a sin to be a homosexual if the person is not involved in sexual activities. If he is chaste and does not have a partner other than friends, there is just the problem of other people judging him. I have known males that are very woman like but that does not mean they are a homosexual. Sexual activity is the sin here. I am certainly not an expert but I believe that marriage is not right because of the sexual sin. God Forgives Sin and he will forgive homosexuality sins. I guess what I am saying is that I do not like homosexuality but I do love the person.

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          I agree that the issue is different from what I described. A homosexual
          person who is open about their sexual ACTIVITY (and I assume that would
          be part of such a “marriage”) is committing sexual sin, just as is an
          admitted adulterer or any other type of fornicator. The sin is in the
          action, not the temptation. I was primarily replying to disqusdmnj about “Broadway shows.”

    • Daniel

      I used to play in orchestras for Broadway touring shows and once I started my church they have not called me since. Probably just a coincidence.

  • Nofun

    Hilarious.

  • Phipps Mike

    “He said in a separate blog post that although homosexuals are welcome to
    attend the services, they are not permitted to serve in leadership
    roles.”

    yea just like they wont let Women in leadership rules. Patriarchal homophobes.

    • jenkins_laurence

      Yeh Christians obeying the bible ,whatever next lol

  • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

    “they—like all of us—are on a journey, and our role as a church is to assist them on this journey”. They won’t need much assistance on their easy journey, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

  • Clae Brewer

    Nothing new here just another case of ” World comformity” In other worlds if some believers are attracted to how the world is living, they some how justify slapping the name of Jesus on it and that makes it ok so a carnal society might embrace them themselves. John 15:19 “If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

  • DNelson

    I certainly support Hillstone’s right to determine criteria for active ministry and leadership positions in their church.

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      Do you support Hillsong having a leader who was found to be a paedophile, and this very same Brian who instead of showing compassion to his father’s victims demonised , harangued and intimidated the children brazenly and without scruple claiming it was they ( the young boys ) who tempted his father. His father Frank never saw gaol time; but be assured his father’s mea culpa to his son and the inaction by leaders and other members of the church is an indictable offence. 1. Endeavouring to pervert the course of justice; intimidation of a victim; Failure to report a sexual assault. Attempting to sway the course of an inquisition. I await with the baited breath the charges that will arise from the commissioners findings. Oh and what crime did these lads commit oh yes they got married. Two male adults whom I assume are in a COMMITTED, LOVING AND MONOGAMOUS relationship are deemed unfit by the church to hold positions of authority, whilst a paedophile is.

      • DNelson

        “Do you support Hillsong having a leader who was found to be a paedophile”

        No, I don’t. How are those two things related?

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          So please forgive me. . They ( Hillsong) can pronounce and proclaim ex cathedra that homosexuals should not hold positions of authority and yet cover up sexual abuse cases by their leaders. I feel that once Brian Houston and church pursued a programme of conspiracy and subterfuge they lost all moral authority. Their behaviour was reprehensible. LOL Hillsong has a strange moral criteria for its leaders condoning paedophilia by being complicit in a cover up, but condemning a married couple who married lawfully and barring them from positions of authority. The Royal commission has shown that.

          • DNelson

            It’s more than strange – it’s hypocritical.

  • Patrick Van Der Ven

    Sorry I have question as it pertains to the Royal Commission in my country about Institutionalised Child Abuse. Is this the same Brian Houston whose father Frank was found to be a paedophile and abused a number of boys during his leadership of the Hillsong Ministry. Further was this the same Brian who endeavoured to cover up his father’s Franks offences and apportion blame to the victims rather than the perpetrator? Was he the one who did almost every he could to keep the police out of investigations. My question is this: does Hillsong Ministries ( it is almost ashes in my mouth ) permit paedophile leaders of the church but somehow have the gall to discriminate again a gay adult couple. Jesus was terribly silent on homosexuality, but when it came to harming the innocence of children, was Jesus not clear. He said they should be thrown into the sea with a stone tied to their neck.

    • Jamie Garcia

      Jesus was not silent. He reaffirmed marriage is one man one woman. And that fornication is wrong. So therefore you cannot be “homosexual”. Stop hijacking the Word and Jesus

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        Hi there, please post what Jesus said. I am intrigued by that comment. I notice you sidestepped and totally ignored the findings of the Royal Commission here. Hillsong and its leaders are in disgrace and have no moral authority. I guess Brian Houston is just another hypocrite. Please I wonder if Frank Houston took the verse suffer the little children to come to me, as one he could to justify paedophilia and of course his son to cover it up.

        • Matthew Ramsey

          Here you go Patrick:
          Jesus spells out what marriage is
          “he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and
          said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold
          fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’” (Matt 19:4-5)

          Jesus condemns sex outside of marriage
          27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
          28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.(Matt 5: 27-28)

          So, to sum up, Jesus never condoned same-sex marriage (nor did anyone at any point in the Bible) and he, along with many writers, spoke out against fornication.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Here we go again taking snippets from the bible and placing them out of context, because Jesus is answering the Pharisees on divorce. Matt 19, 1-3 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

            3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason.
            I am prepared to discuss divorce you too

          • Matthew Ramsey

            Yes, He was speaking about divorce and he began by defining what marriage was since the beginning.

            Just to be clear: are you saying that it doesn’t matter that the Bible condemns homosexual sex and same sex marriage OR are you saying that the Bible is supportive of both those?

            If the former–no problem. You are entitled to your opinion. If the latter, that’s simply and demonstrably incorrect.

            As to the other thing you mentioned I’m going to have to go with the obvious and resounding: No, it is NOT ok for pastors to molest young boys NOR is it ok for the “church” to cover it up. Just because I clicked on an article about Hillsong doesn’t mean I have blanket support of them or their practices.

            Hope that helps.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Hmmmm, I am glad you are in not in favour of pastors molesting children. Jesus is answering a question on divorce as we both agree, however, he was answering in what religious and socio normative definition of marriage of Judaism at the time. We know the Pharisees wanted to draw out a different interpretation of Mosaic law. Here one can argue that divorce is totally illegal and that any type of sexual liaison outside of that (marriage) is wrong, ie adultery, prostitution and concubinage. The same oneness can be argued for a gay marriage. I am sorry we do not agree. As to what I am saying quite clearly that I am in favour of gay marriage and I am showing that their is nowhere where Jesus condemned homosexuals. Yes I am not interested in a flame throwing war either.

          • Matthew Ramsey

            Did Jesus believe in the Law and the prophets? Aren’t their scriptures against homosexual acts in the Old Testament (you’ve quoted Leviticus)?
            If you really think that Jesus was fine with a man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman –where are the scriptures supporting that?

            We have many scriptures that speak against same-sex sexual relationships and non-that support them or give the caveat that they are OK within the confines of marriage. Zero.

            I can wrap my head around the idea that people do not think it is wrong for homosexuals to marry or have same-sex sexual relationships. That’s fine.

            I cannot, however, see where they could claim scriptural support.

            And again, with so many scriptures showing a blanket condemnation of homosexual acts the onus is on the pro-gay marriage supports to show where the Bible supports gay marriage.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            You have stayed silent on the Royal Commission and the iniquities of the Hillsong church. Or is okay for pastors to molest young boys and the church cover it up?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Really Matthew, Jesus was answering the Pharisees on divorces
            Matt 19:1-3.. ARE you playing their deceitful game, but using the word

        • Matthew Ramsey

          Oops, I just read your ultra-long post to David_L where you explain to us in excruciating detail that you don’t understand the fundamental concept of why some specific things of the Old Testament are no longer to be followed by the New Testament church whereas others are.

          My post to you probably won’t penetrate the fog–please disregard..

          You may be interested in reading Paul’s epistles as he spends a lot of time dealing with that very subject.

          Also, I’m sure there are Bible studies on the topic that you could find using Google.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Whoops I do get the point. I can answer all your biblical posts, but here is my point. Evangelical Protestants pick and choose what they want, when it suits them what suits their political agenda. You manipulate the word to suit yourself. So this is what I say. Either live Leviticus in full or don’t. You can’t have it half way both ways .Rev 3.16 So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

          • Matthew Ramsey

            Maybe I’m not being clear–you don’t seem to be getting my point. Christians are specifically told (by Paul and other apostles) to NOT follow all of the OT laws. Just because Patrick Van Der Ven demands that Evangelical Protestants adhere to his ideas so as not to confuse him with nuance* doesn’t mean God wants that (and will spew out** said Evangelicals if they do not).

            *I say “nuance” but it’s actually one of the major themes of the New Testament (i.e., which OT laws to follow and which to not).
            **You quote the scripture so I’m sure you read the context–you know this comment was not directed at the Laodicean’s lack of following Jewish dietary laws outlined in Leviticus. You seem intelligent. You do yourself no favors making comments like these because we both know they are incorrect. I’m not interested in getting into a flame war with you.

      • DNelson

        Please cite one quote from Jesus where he touched on homosexuality being a sin.

        The only thing Jesus said about homosexuals is that the come from their mother’s wombs as homosexuals.

        • Dave_L

          “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality [includes Homosexuality], theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”” (Mark 7:21–23, ESV)

          sexual immorality Greek = various kinds of ‘unsanctioned sexual intercourse’:

          Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 854). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Mark 7:21-23English Standard Version (ESV)

            21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person
            . The addition of homosexuality in parenthesis is your own interpretation of the verse. Remember lies, and that is what your interpretation of this verse is comes from the devil. If Jesus wanted to quote homosexual, and just assuming that he did there
            are perfectly apt words in Greek for homosexuality paiderastes. I have also attached the following article from Our Spirit

            “Some English – and Spanish, and Chinese, and Russian etc. – translations of the Bible include the word homosexual. That’s incorrect because the word homosexual is nowhere in the original Hebrew or the original Greek.
            •The word homosexual didn’t exist when the Bible was written. (New Testament about 2000 years ago, and parts of the Old Testament from 1,400 to 400 BCE.)
            •It wasn’t until 1869 that Dr. Karoly Benkert, a Hungarian physician created the term by combining the homo, the Greek word for same, with the Latin sexual.
            •The word homosexual did not come into use in the United States until the 1880’s.
            •The concept homosexual didn’t exist when the Bible was written
            •If you see the word homosexual or homosexuality in the Bible, it is because translators chose those words to reflect their own homophobic feelings and ideas.

            Where in the Bible you might find the word homosexual used incorrectly:
            •The Hebrew word kedah means temple prostitute and is sometimes inaccurately translated at sodomite or homosexual.
            •In 1 Corinthians, sodomite or homosexual are sometimes used, but they are incorrect translations of the Greek malakos which means something closer to effeminate or the Greek practice of pederasty, which is older men having sex with boys and is not consensual gay sex between peers.
            •1 Corinthians also refers in Greek to arsenokaitai, which appears nowhere else in the Bible or in Greek writings about homoerotic sexuality, but probably means male prostitute.
            •Jude 7 sometimes refers to homosexual flesh that the Sodomites pursued. This is an inaccurate translation of hetera sarx which means, literally, strange flesh to describe the flesh of the angels who were sent by God to evaluate Sodom and Gomorrah.
            •In Timothy 1:9-10, translators sometimes use homosexual for the original Greek words, pornoi, arsenokoitai, and andrapodistai, meaning male prostitutes, males who hire male prostitutes or the slave dealers who procure them.

            Including the word homosexual in the Bible is the choice of translators and is not a reflection of the Bible.

            Love…that’s the whole story.

          • Dave_L

            “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:22, ESV)

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Really??? You have to be careful when you apply Leviticus, because Leviticus is one of those Books in the bible that “Evangelicals” quote when they need to and ignore other parts when they don’t feel the behaviour is “sinful”. Well you can’t have it both ways. Here are others you are not allowed to do. Lev 3.17, you can not eat fat. So make sure your steak is really well trimmed. I would advise against eating burgers you know how much fat is in those rissoles. Lev 5.2 Touching an unclean animal. Okay all you workers at pork abattoirs you better quit now because it is in Leviticus. Lev 10.6 Having unkempt hair. I can see God has fashion sense, dreadlocks are so 90s and mullets well do I even bother, I think my dad had one. Also lev 10. 6 no tearing of clothes uhuh. Ripped Jeans are out guys. You know it is a death offence, and everyone will suffer. Blimey is Yves St Laurent a holy prophet. Lev 11:18 you can not eat of anything that does not chew the cud and has a divided hoof. Rabbit, camel and kangaroo are off the menu. Also it is forbidden to touch the carcase of anything unclean. Lev 3.17 Eating blood. Yay mum, I can not eat black pudding because God said so. I hope I find a verse about brussel sprouts. Lev 11.10 No touching or eating any seafood without fins or scales, No shrimp, catfish or lobster. Lev 12.4 going to church within 33 days of giving birth to a boy. Lev 12.5 going to church for 66 days for giving birth to a girl. Lev 18.19 says you should not have sex with your wife during her period. [15:24 simply says the man will be considered unclean for 7 days. In 20:18, “Both of them are to be cut off from their people”] Lev 19.19. No mixing of fibres. Oh my God all of those polyester shirts people have to get rid of. Also this verses has an injunction against cross breeding animals. Lev 19.20 Is my favourite, because if you sleep with another man’s slave no biggie, just a ram sacrifice. If you sleep with another mans wife, death. So fornication is okayish if the person is a slave. Makes you see how the Catholics came up with venial and mortal sins. Lev 19.23 Eating fruit from a tree within 4 years of planting of it, but with a stipulation. That tree must be in Israel, Lev 19.27 trimming your beard. Wow everyone who shaves is a slippery path to Hell. Lev 19.28 Getting tattoos are forbidden. Lev 19.32 Not standing in the presence of the elderly. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born” (19:33-34) Leave those poor illegals alone. Let them all cross the Rio Grande. Lev 23.3 working on the Sabbath big no no. Lev 25.23 Selling land permanently. Realtors are all the agent of Satan. Maybe that is not so incorrect. Here is you can not pick and choose which verses you want live by if you quote Leviticus. It is either you live it all and become an orthodox Jew or you admit you twist and manipulate the bible to suit your own agenda.

          • Dave_L

            So is murder OK because it is first mentioned in the Old Testament?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Don’t be vacuous. I am enjoying this. Murder by definition is the unlawful killing of a person. All societies whether or not Judeo-Christian have taboos against murder. Let’s be reminded what Jesus said Mark 12:30-31New International Version (NIV)

            30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.” That surely is an injunction against murder.

          • Darby C. Reger

            You are the one twisting the Bible to fit an agenda. There is a historic overall agreement about what the Bible means – you have twisted the Bible all over the place and rendered it useless, at least for yourself. Anybody who argues with you is just wasting their time, because you are angry with God, and will not understand. This a problem between you and God, and no man will be able to convince you by argument.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Dear Darby, please forgive me in as I want to bring up a few points. You say I twist the bible, really? I was bringing to attention the horrific scandal that has engulfed Hillsong and its leaders not only guilty of paedophilia, but a flagrant cover up of crimes by the church. They flouted the law at every opportunity and were shown to be what they are: that is hypocrites devoid of one iota of moral authority. It took a Royal Commission my Lord for some type of apology to come from this lurid cesspool. I wanted to show how Jesus was quite clear on how paedophiles were to be dealt with and yet not one word of condemnation of homosexuals. I answered all points in regards to unmitigated gall of selective acceptance of parts of the word by Evangelical Protestants to suit an agenda which gives then the ability to discriminate against a marginalised minority. I am sorry if you can not handle that. Do you know who I think Sodom is, is the fat , overfed, haughty, self indulgent churches that do nothing for the poor and the needy and pontificate on the morals of a minority when they do far worse themselves by abusing children. You people have perverted the word from the beginning, to justify slavery, miscegenation and segregation. Now you say that this has been the historical (traditional)interpretation of scripture, when I answer the reason why and how the readings of those verses are incorrect, but I again ask you to forgive this poor humble man for citing just a couple of more things. You accuse the Roman Catholics about being a false and non Biblical church because they follow tradition ( history) and scripture. Hay, dude you can’t claim tradition when you point that out to be a fault of the Mother church. Then you admit what your really are, a group of protesters outside of the church, who practise the most heinous offence of sola scriptoria, because it was Paul who said it was the church that was left behind to guide us. So any protest or any division means that that is the world of the devil. For Christ himself said he wanted there to me one church. Ah what a hole we sometimes did for ourselves in debate ( Not that I am an apologist for the Catholics).

          • Darby C. Reger

            I don’t know about the Hillsong scandal, but I would be against that also. As far as saying Jesus did not condemn homosexuality, every word that God speaks is also from Jesus – Old or New Testament.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Then you side with Peter in his argument with Paul that all Christians should become Jews before being welcomed into the Christian fold?. I take it now that you are saying Christianity is a Jewish doomsday cult, but then the messianic legacy of Jesus would be called into question as none of his prophecies have been fulfilled.. You have not answered my questions re Jesus’ non condemnation of homosexuality in the bible. You have used tradition and I am wondering how that differs from Catholicism. Oh just one other question. When and where did the apostles or Jesus leave us with an authorised set of books for the new testament? Homosexuals and now married homosexuals who are becoming one flesh will enter into the Kingdom of God.

          • DNelson

            Still waiting on a quote from Jesus about homosexuals. Let me know when you find one.

          • Dave_L

            Jesus condemns all sexual sins in this verse. This includes; “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.” (Leviticus 18:22–23, ESV). At the time spoken, the Old Testament defined the sins he referred to.

            He doesn’t mention guns or nukes either but killing remains the same.

          • DNelson

            So you can find no direct quote from Jesus regarding homosexuals. Got it. Thanks.

            “He doesn’t mention guns or nukes either but killing remains the same.”

            Because they didn’t exist at the time. Homosexuals did. Jesus says that some come that way from their mother’s wombs.

          • Dave_L

            If it [the passage quoted] walks like a Homosexual, ***** like a Homosexual, and ***** like a Homosexual, it must be a Homosexual…..

            The verse in question clearly refers to Homosexuals. Jesus condemns the sin by definition, not by name.

            Again, for the sake of clarity; “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.” (Leviticus 18:22–23, ESV). At the time spoken, the Old Testament defined the sins he referred to.

          • Darby C. Reger

            This verse does not refer to homosexuals. Matthew 19:12 “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.” (Whether or not these eunuchs had homosexual desires is an issue not addressed in this verse.)

            I do agree that God in Leviticus 18:22-23 does condemn homosexuality and bestiality. (And also in many other Scriptures.)

          • Dave_L

            I quoted two passages. The homosexual passage is this;

            “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.” (Leviticus 18:22–23, ESV).

            Since the OT defined sin at the time Jesus spoke this:

            “For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality [includes Homosexuality], theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”” (Mark 7:21–23, ESV)

            Leviticus 18:22=23 would fall under the “sexual immorality” mentioned in Mark.

            Thanks for your concern about being correct.

          • Darby C. Reger

            Maybe I misunderstood your intentions; I thought you were defending homosexuality. Sorry if I did.

          • Darby C. Reger

            Please give us a direct quote by Jesus saying that homosexuals come that way from their mother’s wombs.

          • DNelson

            Matthew 19:12; New American Standard Version:

            “For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother’s womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

          • Darby C. Reger

            I’m not sure what that has to do with the question I asked. Eunuch does not equal homosexual.

          • DNelson

            Our current usage of the term “eunuch” applies only to castrated males. However, in biblical times, it referred to men who either were not equipped for sexual relations with women (castrated), have given themselves to a life of celibacy, or who had no natural attraction to women. You can see this in Jesus making distinctions between the three different types.

            Homosexuals were sought after during those times to guard over women, as those who employed them knew they would not have to worry about their women being sexually assaulted.

          • Darby C. Reger

            Yes, I agree with what you say an eunuch is. But I don’t understand you using Matthew 19:12 as a proof text for the statement, “… Because they didn’t exist at the time. Homosexuals did. Jesus says that some come that way from their mother’s wombs.”

          • DNelson

            You are looking for a proof statement that guns and nukes didn’t exist in biblical times?

          • jenkins_laurence

            If Jesus was the word made flesh ,Paul’s words on the subject of homosexuals not inheriting the kingdom were and ARE Jesus .

  • Julie Vanholstyn

    good for them. it is still a sin and sin must be judged within the church

  • FoJC_Forever

    Hillsong is a cult. No different than Baptist cults.

    • Dave_L

      Hillsong is Pentecostal, Baptists are not. Big difference….

      Pentecostals (of your stamp) are the ones who have buried several hundreds of their members who they talked into throwing away their medicine and then criticized them for not having enough faith. Mainline historic churches do not do this sort of thing.

      • FoJC_Forever

        I’m not what you label me to be. I am what Jesus (the) Christ has declared me to be.

        See, you do what many fake Christians do, you don’t let the Holy Spirit teach you the Scriptures. It’s not about having “more Faith”. Jesus said specifically it only takes a small amount of Faith to, literally, remove a mountain and cast it into the sea. Faith is an Eternal Power, like Hope and Love. Jesus wasn’t speaking metaphorically about removing a mountain, just like the Scriptures weren’t speaking metaphorically about the Mark of the Beast. (This will be how religious people are duped into receiving the Mark, but telling them it’s not actually the mark of the Beast.) Jesus was speaking literally about the manifest power of God which rules over nature – which includes the sicknesses and diseases which manifest due to the sinful state of our bodies.

        Those who don’t listen to Jesus, those who only know about God by following a textual religion (no different, really, than those who worship the Qur’an) can spout many things about the LORD and the Scriptures, but are not baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit. Without the power of the Holy Spirit and His enabling to hear Jesus, a person cannot have Faith at all. They are inundated with false doctrines and the reasonings of those who simply follow their own traditions. Those who want to know Jesus will eventually leave these false teachers and seek the LORD, rather than be poisoned by the words and writings of Faith-less teachers and preachers.

        There are those who claim to teach Faith, but only teach their own brand of false doctrines. They have no power, because the Holy Spirit doesn’t reside within them. The Devil uses these people to turn people away from the Faith, turning them to listen to other powerless religious doctrines.

        You haven’t offered any real proof of your claim that people have died by the hundreds from following false teachings about Faith. I know there are people being lied to about Faith, since you are one of them. Your claims sound horrific, but you need to make some specific claims instead of using shotgun style accusations.

        The woman who came to Jesus wasn’t criticized by Jesus for seeking help from doctors. She was healed because she acted upon her Faith, which came from hearing Jesus. Jesus said repeatedly that people were being healed by their Faith. It is no different today. Faith isn’t simply what someone believes, it is a form of God’s Power within a person who hears and believes His Word, Jesus (the) Christ. People have been duped into believing Faith is just what they believe, rather than coming to a true Understanding about Faith.

        Don’t seek healing, seek to hear Jesus (the) Christ, then Faith will manifest, then healing will manifest.

        • Dave_L

          What about God’s use of medicine?

          • FoJC_Forever

            God doesn’t use medicine. We’ve already been over that, troll.

          • Dave_L

            This (your teaching) is exactly the same teaching that killed all of the Pentecostals I referred to. All healing is from God. If you cut your finger, God heals it. If you pour disinfectant on it he heals it sooner. Do you brush your teeth? Or take baths? You are removing germs the same way medicine removes germs.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I don’t think you know how to read properly. You’d do well to shut up and quit trying to have a conversation with me.

            (For others who may be reading)

            I’m not God. I can use medicines and other natural things, but it isn’t the power of Faith healing me, it’s simply the natural reactions of chemicals. Medicines are not the power of God to heal. Faith is the power of God to heal, and it comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, Jesus (the) Christ.

            Don’t let the unbelief of others rob you of what God has promised you.

          • Dave_L

            Your view has killed too many people, children of deceived parents being the most heart rending casualties. If you think Faith heals, you’ll worship faith. If you think God Heals, you’ll worship God, and that IS faith.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Jesus said Faith heals. I don’t worship Faith, I worship the the Living Word of God, Jesus (the) Christ, through whom Faith comes.

          • Dave_L

            The “prayer” of faith will save (heal) the sick. Jesus said according to your faith be it unto you. If your faith is in faith you will fail. If it is in God you will be open to his leading in healing.

            Many of the dead Pentecostals ruled out the simplest solutions forcing God to do it their way, and not seeking his guidance in the matter.

            If you limit God in answering your prayer by shunning medicine and doctors, you must shun wiping, brushing teeth, and bathing. Because when you do these things you are performing the basic role of a physician in removing germs.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You keep attributing beliefs to me that I do not hold. Your suggestions are futile, just as your strategy to undermine the Faith I receive from Jesus (the) Christ.

            You are crafty, for certain, just as the people who tried to deceive the Believers in the early Church with their seeming knowledge of the Scriptures. Paul, who was given the Apostolic Gift by the Holy Spirit, warned against people like you. I take the Holy Spirit’s warning and receive the comfort of His Presence. You have failed.

            You fool people with your associations. Medicine is natural, not supernatural. Faith produces the supernatural promise of healing, as promised by God in the Scriptures and affirmed by His Spirit. What you want people to do is accept medicine as God’s healing with your wild accusations and associations.

            Right now there is a town which is receiving mandatory RFID chips directly related to public assistance, which includes the ACA (Obamacare). It is the prelude to the Mark of Beast, which isn’t a metaphor. You, and your kind, want to fool people into accepting the Mark. You will only succeed in condemning yourself, as those who follow your pernicious ways.

          • Dave_L

            >You keep attributing beliefs to me that I do not hold. Your suggestions are futile, just as your strategy to undermine the Faith I receive from Jesus (the) Christ.

            >>I know your views on faith healing as mentioned on this forum are the same as those Pentecostals who died from shunning doctors and medicine. Nearly all of their deaths and the deaths of their children would not have happened if they had remained in their historic mainline churches, and not swallowed the line you and so many others have swallowed.

            >You are crafty, for certain, just as the people who tried to deceive the Believers in the early Church with their seeming knowledge of the Scriptures. Paul, who was given the Apostolic Gift by the Holy Spirit, warned against people like you. I take the Holy Spirit’s warning and receive the comfort of His Presence. You have failed.

            >>I make no apology for spending several hours every day studying God’s Word. I share in love and concern for those who are making mistakes I’ve made and bringing harm to themselves and others by holding erroneous views.

            >You fool people with your associations. Medicine is natural, not supernatural. Faith produces the supernatural promise of healing, as promised by God in the Scriptures and affirmed by His Spirit. What you want people to do is accept medicine as God’s healing with your wild accusations and associations.

            >>All healing is of God. Faith cannot heal anyone. It is an idol people focus on thinking if they conjure it up, it obligates God to heal them. Many have died unnecessarily because of this. Genuine faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You cannot conjure it up. Faith tells you God saved you. It tells you God healed you.

            >>Common sense is not sin, what do you do if you break a leg? Force God to set it through human faith and wait the rest of your life for him to set it and put a cast on it? Or pray and ask God’s blessings on the doctor?

            >Right now there is a town which is receiving mandatory RFID chips directly related to public assistance, which includes the ACA (Obamacare). It is the prelude to the Mark of Beast, which isn’t a metaphor. You, and your kind, want to fool people into accepting the Mark. You will only succeed in condemning yourself, as those who follow your pernicious ways.

            >>How many have already received the Mark thinking it is literal? If Jesus says anger and hatred are the same as murder. And if lust is the same as adultery, cannot someone receive the Mark by doing what the literal Mark depicts? That is placing man’s wicked laws above God’s? The Christian business that closed did not receive the Mark. Those who support the Laws did.

            >>Besides, take a look at the symbolism in Revelation. When do you expect to see ten headed dragons floating around anytime soon?

          • FoJC_Forever

            Same old pretend debate tactic. You and your group of trolls may get clicks to this website, but your value is minimal.

          • FoJC_Forever

            People like you only fool those who don’t know Jesus. Those who wanted to kill Jesus spent time each day studying the Scriptures. You claim to study the Scriptures, but I’ve only seen you copy/paste the ones which support you false view. Your words are false and your spirits are evil.

            If a person makes me choose between seeing a doctor or following Jesus, I’ll follow Jesus and He will grant me the healing from the power of Faith.

            You’re not a Christian. You’re an internet stalker and troll. Those who know Jesus will see this Truth the more you post and berate others with you false use of Scripture.

          • Dave_L

            You are saying exactly, almost word for word, what several hundreds of dead Pentecostals said. I knew some personally in one church where nearly 100 died needlessly. You like they have faith in your faith expecting God to jump through your hoops. It doesn’t work this way.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Christians aren’t worried about dying. Only those who do not know Jesus are doing all they can to stave off the inevitable. While I’m not seeking to end this life before the LORD has willed it to end, I’m not like those who are practicing their own brand of religion, all the while carrying the fear of death inside them. I will never Die. I will just be transformed.

            If you want to touch on actual events, then provide references to the who and the where these events occurred. I’ve never told anyone to not seek medical help, when it is obvious they don’t have Faith to be healed, nor would I ever. But, unlike you, I don’t pretend to know Jesus (the) Christ, so the Faith I have is real and works as He has Promised. God’s promise of being healed by Faith is more real and certain than the air we breathe.

            Again, you lie. I don’t “have faith in my faith”; that’s a false teaching. You just keep on stating these lies, because the Truth is not in you. I have Faith in God. I have the Faith of God, because He has imparted it to me through hearing His Word.

            You speak about yourself and I cannot help but reply so that you won’t harm a person’s Faith who happens upon this comment board. They need to know that they can continue in the Faith, grounded and settled, and not be uprooted by those like you who only use the Scriptures to promote false religion.

          • Dave_L

            Nice dodge….

          • FoJC_Forever

            Don’t upvote me on a comment, then make snide remarks to me. I’m an adult, and if you can’t act like one, move along.

            I’m not dodging anything.

          • Dave_L

            I will up vote any comment from anyone that I think is good. I thought you made an excellent comment especially when you pointed out the unnecessary war deaths people must answer for. Great Job!

          • FoJC_Forever

            Your commendation is reject, just as is your doctrines and spirits.

          • Dave_L

            You say; “Christians aren’t worried about dying.” This is true but Christians should be worried about killing others with false doctrine, especially children whose parents are deceived by faith healing as taught today.

            I heard a Pentecostal who claimed the same things about God and medicine as you, react to the death of one of his listeners. She was a diabetic who threw away her medicine. He shrugged and said; “well, she’s where she wants to be”.

            What really happened was that he killed her with false doctrine, binding her conscience into thinking God doesn’t use medicine. (sound familiar?). And he walks Free leaving more dead in his wake along with their grieving families.

            God withdrew the Charismatic Gifts towards the completion of the New Testament writings. All Healing is of God but not according to your method.

            “Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.” (Philippians 2:25–
            27, KJV 1900)

            “[Timothy] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine [medicine] for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.” (1 Timothy 5:23, KJV 1900)

            “Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.” (2 Timothy 4:20, KJV 1900)

            Did these not have faith? Why didn’t Paul heal them? The answer is that God had already withdrawn the Charismatic Gifts. They no longer served their purpose of validating the Apostles and substituting for the New Testament until it became complete (perfect).

            “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:10, KJV 1900)

          • FoJC_Forever

            I don’t care what you think about anything, Dave_Liar.

          • Dave_L

            Where have I lied? You need to study the Bible to know if what I say is true. When is the last time, if ever, you have read the Bible cover to cover? Also, the event with the “Pentecostal Serial Killer”, (he is responsible for many deaths because of false teaching) is very provable if necessary.

      • Emmanuel

        Dave, do you know any pentecostals? Do you know where the Pentecostal word comes from? Have you ever felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life? Now, if you are confusing apostolics with Pentecostals, then your hate makes sense.

        • Dave_L

          Do you speak in tongues?

          • Emmanuel

            Yup, since my teens

          • Dave_L

            Are they actual foreign languages you never learned, German, French, etc.? And do you understand what you are saying while speaking the languages?

          • Emmanuel

            I don’t know what I’m saying and I did not learn it. Here’s my short on this; we all have a spirit or soul. Our spirit praises God in the foreign tongue. So, it’s not like speaking English and you have to think about it. This comes from your spirit and we speak for our spirit.
            Plus, the feeling you get is amazing; love, peace, joy, happiness when your spirit is allowed to worship. And that is how I know it’s from God because of how I feel when I speak in tongues. It’s a spirit thing and not a human thing. I hope this helps.
            Anyone can do it but they need to repent from sin, saved and forgiven. Speaking in tongues is inside of you ready to come out. We are starving our spirit when we don’t speak in tongues. Do I have biblical verses for my specific feelings and observation, no, but I believe in Act 2 and many other verses that speak about speaking in tongues like in 1 Corinthians. So this is more personal and one on one with God.

          • Dave_L

            According to Acts and Corinthians, the people who spoke in Tongues knew what they were saying while they were saying it; in real human languages they didn’t learn. So Pentecostal Tongues today are not genuine in this sense.

            “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” (Acts 2:4–11, KJV 1900)

            Here’s Paul on Prophecy and Tongues showing that understanding (knowing what is being said) is the basis for edification.

            “He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:4, KJV 1900)

            Why does he that prophesieth edify the Church? Because they know what he is saying.

            Why does he that speaks in an unknown tongue edifieth himself? Because he understands what he is saying.

            Why does he interpret (translate) tongues? So the church can understand and be edified.

            “I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:5, KJV 1900)

            Today, Pentecostal Tongues are not the same as Tongues in the book of Acts or Corinthians.

          • Emmanuel

            How can we say that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow but then say He is not the same? The HS has not changed but we have through doubt and questioning God. Those are all great verses and I believe in them. I read 1 Corinthians 13 regarding HS gifts that he gives us all. One of those gifts is interpret tongues. Yes, for the edifying of the church. But you also quoted 1 cor 14, we can speak in tongue for ourselves but if tongues is meant for the church, someone will interpret. So we can speak in tongues because it builds us up. But it all starts with having Christ in your heart, believe in the power of HS aka the comforter, a promise from Jesus. So what gift do you have? Do you want to speak in tongues? Does your soul long to worship God in spirit and in truth?

          • Dave_L

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23, KJV 1900)

            Notice “faith” is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. This means God first gave you the Holy Spirit [New Birth] enabling you to believe the Gospel. This is salvation by Grace.

            Able, Noah, Abraham, all believing Jews and gentiles, the Apostles had the Holy Spirit [New Birth], or else they could not believe.

            God Baptized the Apostles in the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and the Gentile believers at Cornielius’ house. This means they were not only previously born again (had the Holy Spirit) and had faith, but God immersed them in the Holy Spirit in these two out-pourings.

            All other Baptisms in the Holy Spirit happened only by the laying on of the Apostles hands. Those whom they laid hands on could not transfer the gift to others.

            “But when they [Samarians] believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ [because of the New Birth], they were baptized, both men and women.” (Acts 8:12, KJV 1900)

            “Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost [Baptism of the Holy Spirit]: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 8:14–17, KJV 1900)

            When the New Testament became complete (perfect) the Baptism had served God’s purpose and expired with the Apostles.

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, KJV 1900)

            “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13, KJV 1900)

            Please note: you do not need faith or hope in Heaven. The “perfect” is Scripture.

            Today the Apostles and Prophets form much of the New Testament and are foundational to the Church as always.

          • Emmanuel

            We are going around in circles so I will continue to expand and grow with the HS alive, growing and guiding me. I will continue to allow my spirit to worship God. I will not limit the HS. To me, he’s Alpha and Omega. God Bless and we will leave it at agree to disagree.

          • Dave_L

            You cannot worship God unless you know what you are saying.

            If someone were to blaspheme the Holy Spirit today, how would they do it?

            I’ve heard Pentecostals say things similar to this; “thus sayeth the Lord” and then blurt something not found in Scripture. Or “the Lord showed me” and then mention something not found in Scripture. Or mimick any of the expired gifts and attribute it to the Holy Spirit.

          • Emmanuel

            Dave, I worship Christ in spirit and in truth. We have two very different views about how we worship. I worship more radical and more HS led. I will continue because I’ve heard from HS, I’ve seen his hand move and I’ve experienced the HS in awesome ways. So, I will not change because of these experiences. I will not limit the HS and still believe in Acts 2, 1 Cor 13 and 14 and I hang on to the promise from Christ, he sent me a Comforter that is alive in me. So we both love Christ and we 100% trust in Him, so lets leave it at that.

          • Dave_L

            I’m curious. What are some of the experiences that won’t allow you to change?

          • Emmanuel

            I have seen healing and I have seen miracles. I’ve felt the power of God go through me to heal a person. Indescribable, amazing and god fearing at the same time. But the one that sealed it for me, a man had two uneven legs and I saw when the HS stretched out the shorter leg to make it longer and even with the other. Again, humbling, amazing and shocking and still gives me chills when I remember it, like now. All I could do is hit the floor in humbleness, praise, worship, cry and just love on Jesus. I wish everyone can see this. There is no way that I can say that the HS is not alive and moving like in Acts, Corinthians and the new testament. He is alpha and omega, same through the ages. I will always go to the Comforter for his awesomeness. I could on but I need to stop to give Jesus some love.

          • Dave_L

            Jesus, the Apostles, and those the Apostles laid their hands on healed by command. The signs confirmed the Apostle’s authority. “Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” (2 Corinthians 12:12, KJV 1900).

            “After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” (1 Corinthians 15:7–9, KJV 1900)

            The signs of an Apostle expired with them. If there were more, the foundations of the Holy City mentioned in Revelation would have more than just their names.

            What you describe is the miracle working prayer of faith that remains in the Church. I’ve seen and participated in some of what you describe, also some greater works.

            I have the Holy Spirit but I understand what He does in light of the Scriptures. If something doesn’t square with the Bible after prayerful Holy Spirit led study, it is not of Him. This is why I am not “Pentecostal”.

          • Emmanuel

            Ok, blessings

          • Dave_L

            Just be sure you evaluate your experience in light of the Scriptures, and not the Scriptures in light of your experience. “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.” (Mark 13:22, KJV 1900)

          • FoJC_Forever

            Don’t let Dave_L, and others like him, fool you. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit never passed away. The people who don’t have them are always trying to convince others, because they want the control of their textual religion over others. Theirs is a doctrine according to natural understanding rather than Understanding of the Scriptures which comes from the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures do not teach that the Holy Spirit stopped moving in and gifting Believers the same way He did with those who first received Him.

            The Holy Spirit is God, and He never changes.

            Many claim to be Christian, but always resist the Holy Spirit, and re-order the Scriptures to match their false doctrines. If you listen to what they say, then unbelief will gain more ground in you.

          • Dave_L

            There are no Apostles since John died. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Charismatic Gifts ceased with him. If you speak in tongues or prophecy, it is not genuine nor is it God doing it. Be careful, many today blaspheme the Holy Spirit claiming their words are His.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You lie, and then you state something that is true about yourself. You pretend to know God on here (and other places), while you’re nothing more than a charlatan fooling people by copy/pasting Scripture.

            You remind me of the politicians, Republicans especially, that pretend to represent Christian values, but only use them for votes and support.

          • Emmanuel

            Forever, no worries, I’m not being swayed and I will continue to pray for them. Saul of Tarsus was a man of scripture, he know the word better than 99% of all followers but he learned more about God from his encounter with Jesus than all the reading, degrees, positions and titles.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Dave_L is intentionally lying about what the Scriptures teach concerning speaking/praying in other tongues. Don’t buy into it.

          • Dave_L

            If I’m lying God will judge me accordingly. If you call me a liar when I’m presenting His word He’ll judge you.

            “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10, KJV 1900)

            “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Corinthians 13:12, KJV 1900)

            “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13, KJV 1900)

            That which is perfect is the Scriptures. It is not Heaven or the New Heavens and Earth, because you will not need faith or hope when there. Is God’s Word not perfect?

          • FoJC_Forever

            Yes, God will Judge you for lying. He will also Judge you for stalking people online, lying about what they have stated and believe, and also Judge you for misrepresenting the Scriptures. He Judged those who claimed to know the Scriptures, yet plotted and pursued Jesus (the) Christ, the Living Word of God. You quoting Scripture doesn’t make you a Christian – Lucifer quoted Scripture to Jesus.

            When the New Heavens and Earth are manifest, then that which is Perfect has come, then the Gifts of the Holy Spirit will no longer be needed.

            So, now you’re capitalizing things to mimic me. You think you can steal from me and transfer your false doctrine and spirits to me? It won’t work. Others have tried this form of witchcraft and failed, to their own detriment.

          • Dave_L

            So you are saying the Bible isn’t perfect, and that it doesn’t do better what tongues and prophecy did?

            “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:19–20, KJV 1900)

      • OlSkoolPreacher

        John 14:12 (KJV)

        12 VERILY,VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, THE WORKS THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; AND GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO; BECAUSE I GO UNTO MY FATHER.

        Acts 2:17–18

        “ ‘And IN THE LAST DAYS it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
        and YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,and your young men shall see visions,and your old men shall dream dreams;
        18 even on my male servants and female servant in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

        [READ THIS IN IT’S ENTIRETY]
        1 Corinthians 14 (KJV)

        14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
        2 FOR HE THAT SPEAKETH IN AN UNKNOWN TONGUE
        SPEAKETH NOT UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD: [The unknown tongue is between man and
        GOD]
        for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh
        mysteries.
        3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to
        edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
        4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth
        himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
        5 I WOULD THAT YE ALL SPAKE WITH TONGUES BUT
        RATHER THAT YE PROPHESIED: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that
        speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive
        edifying.
        6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with
        tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by
        revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
        7 And even things without life giving sound,
        whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall
        it be known what is piped or harped?
        8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who
        shall prepare himself to the battle?
        9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue
        words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall
        speak into the air.
        10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in
        the world, and none of them is without signification.
        11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the
        voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh
        shall be a barbarian unto me.
        12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of
        spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
        13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown
        tongue pray that he may interpret.
        14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit
        prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
        15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit,
        and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I
        will sing with the understanding also.
        16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how
        shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of
        thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
        17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the
        other is not edified.
        18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than
        ye all:
        19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words
        with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten
        thousand words in an unknown tongue.
        20 Brethren, be not children in understanding:
        howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
        21 In the law it is written, With men of other
        tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will
        they not hear me, saith the Lord.
        22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them
        that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for
        them that believe not, but for them which believe.
        23 If therefore the whole church be come together
        into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are
        unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
        24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that
        believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
        25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made
        manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that
        God is in you of a truth.
        26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
        every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a
        revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
        27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be
        by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
        28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep
        silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
        29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the
        other judge.
        30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth
        by, let the first hold his peace.
        31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may
        learn, and all may be comforted.
        32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to
        the prophets.
        33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of
        peace, as in all churches of the saints.
        34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for
        it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under
        obedience as also saith the law.
        35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
        their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
        36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came
        it unto you only?
        37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or
        spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the
        commandments of the Lord.
        38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
        39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and
        forbid not to speak with tongues.
        40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

        [1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (KJV)

        ((The cessationist view hinges on what Paul meant by “completeness” (or “perfection” in some translations). Many cessationists say it refers to the completeness of scripture–the closing of the Biblical canon. But as one scholar pointed out, that would require Paul to have knowledge of an incomplete New Testament canon. Paul may not have even been aware that he was writing part of that canon. Some scholars date Paul’s writings as some of the earliest NT documents; the testimonies of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John hadn’t even been set to paper yet–their stories were being spread word-of-mouth. So how could Paul have possibly known about a canon?))

        8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
        9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
        10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
        11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
        12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
        13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

        • Dave_L

          Thanks for your interest in this. The big question concerns this; Those who spoke in tongues actually spoke in foreign languages. On the Day of Pentecost hundreds heard God being glorified in their native languages spoken by the Apostles.

          Also; those who received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles hands, spoke in tongues understood what they were saying as they were speaking. Just as you know what you are saying when you speak English. I’ll explain;

          Paul told the tongue speakers they were the only ones being edified unless they interpret (translate) so others could understand and become edified along with them. So understanding what was being said became the basis for edification. Understanding what they were saying is why those speaking were edified.

          Today’s Pentecostals do none of this. They are not speaking in foreign languages unless they first learned them

          They do not know what they are saying.

          They have recorded “Pentecostal Tongues” messages and distributed the same message to several who believe they have the gift of interpretation. All gave a different interpretations.

          History confirms the “Signs of the Apostles” ceased in the first half of the second century with the passing of John’s students.

          There are no miracles of Apostolic Command and magnitude today. We however have the prayer of faith.

          • OlSkoolPreacher

            I have seen miracles. Many small Churches, and very, very widely across the world, miracles are still seen.
            China-Aide, Gospel For Asia, and many other Missionary organizations frequently speak of “miracles of Apostolic Command” today!

            History indicates that when Christians in the early Church prayed, they expected the Holy Spirit would manifest with powerful signs. This was also assumed during baptisms. These Christians came to depend upon the experience that when a convert was baptized, he or she might rise up out of the baptismal water and begin to prophesy, speak in tongues, see a vision, or be delivered of demons. Tertullian (ca. 160–255 AD), one of the great defenders of orthodox Christianity, addressed his baptismal candidates to expect the gifts. He would proclaim, “When you come up from the most sacred bath of the new birth, when you spread out your hands … ask your Father, ask your Lord, for the special gift of his inheritance, the distribution of the charisms.”

            Other Church fathers likewise professed charismatic experiences. Justin Martyr (ca. 100–165) and Origen of Alexandria (ca. 185–254) spoke about exorcisms. Clement of Alexandria (ca. 215) believed that a “perfect man” is characterized by his reception of the gifts of 1 Corinthians 12. Thus, more than 100 years after the crucifixion of Christ, and well after the death of the last apostle, the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit were still in operation.

            Regardless, an unknown tongue is referenced along with others in 1st Corinthians.

            Also, I have seen and heard people speak in languages that they did not know, and someone from a foreign nation later testify that God was speaking to them in that language, and translate.

            Yes, there should be an interpreter.

            You cannot, in honesty, say that “no miracles of Apostolic Command and magnitude today”, “History confirms the “Signs of the Apostles ceased in the first half of the second century with the passing of John’s students”, or ” They do not know what they are saying.” because you are neither omniscient, nor omnipresent.

            I could likewise say that you do not exist because none of my acquaintances have seen or talked to you.

          • Dave_L

            I have experienced “prayer of faith” miracles and have seen things beyond natural explaination related to Christ and the power of His name – as a non-Pentecostal.

            We do not see amputees restored today, (Jesus healed an amputee) nor resurrections from the dead by command in Jesus’ name. No twisted limbs being healed. If there was even one shred of evidence for what you claim it would become major headline news.

            If you are honest, Pentecostals do not have the Charismatic Gifts mentioned in Acts or Corinthians. In fact, word of faith Pentecostals have killed several hundreds of their own trying to heal them when a simple visit to the doctor would have spared suffering and kept them alive. Many, Many, children.

            Post your evidence for all to see and I will show hundreds of unecessary deaths from Pentecostal faith healers…

            Also, beyond the second century, there are no first hand accounts of miracles, they are all hearsay. The Montanists were the first to claim what Pentecostals today claim as miracles, and they were heretics.

          • FoJC_Forever

            “I have experienced “prayer of faith” miracles and have seen things beyond natural explaination related to Christ and the power of His name – as a non-Pentecostal.”

            You contradict yourself. You lie.

            “Also, beyond the second century, there are no first hand accounts of miracles, they are all hearsay. The Montanists were the first to claim what Pentecostals today claim as miracles, and they were heretics.”

            Go follow cults looking for falsehood. Quit following me around, stalking me online and offline (through your friends).

          • Dave_L

            Point it out.

          • jenkins_laurence

            “Today’s Pentecostals do none of this. They are not speaking in foreign languages unless they first learned them” really ?
            and how do you know this ? I know of many many cases where christian’s have spoke in tongues ,and others have understood there own language ,sometimes very obscure languages .

          • Dave_L

            Tests conducted on Pentecostals have proven otherwise. Although other religions have claimed the same but suggest demonic sources. We must go by what the Bible says and not by experience which is liberalism.

          • jenkins_laurence

            I have witnessed the difference of praying in a “heavenly” language

            praying in “diverse tongues” and heard the silencing of the prayers in the body of those praying in a heavenly language ,so a specific prophetic message is spoken by one and another ,interprets ,like clockwork over many years ,I have also witnessed for myself the speaking of diverse tongues of another earthly language .

            the premise ,I have had someone teach me of praying in tongues

            is that you are praying to God through the holy spirit and as the enemy does not understand revelation seen the beginning from the end ,or they (Satan and his angels)never would have rebelled ” You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ears have not been open. Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.”

            Isaiah 48:8

            so like sending prayers ,encoded by an enigma machine the enemy is unable to decipher .

            as for your claim all the other gifts have passed away with the apostles ,of course you would be including the gift of teaching ,which is listed as a supernatural gift .?

            this all recorded as the word of God in the very bible you are claiming instructs that the gifts have passed away ,your logic is self defeating .

            to believe the gifts of the spirit have passed away ,is akin to believing in the concept of cars ,but claiming ,you have no need of petrol .lol as for your test , does the bible not say
            Jesus answered ,”do not put the Lord your God to the test ”
            4:12

  • Jerry_In_IL

    Hmmm. Living in open sin is now a “journey”. Good news for “itching ears” (2 Tim 4:3-4).

    • Emmanuel

      LOL, I wonder where this journey ends.

  • oregon_man

    Half or more of the choir directors in this country are gay. I know one personally. That would be really amusing if they fired all of them. The churches would go silent.

    • SFBruce

      Don’t forget those organists and other church musicians.

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        Stereotyping 🙂

        • SFBruce

          I have no doubt there are some straight organists, but I also firmly believe if all the choir masters and organists stayed home this Sunday, there would be many, many music-free services.

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      Oh please look into this church and its leader I have posted more than enough information about them and the Royal Commission here in Australia about institutionalised child abuse.

  • Sandy

    What baloney. There’s no love in that church.

  • checha espinosa

    a jouney to hell this churches think they can go whitout punishment!!????

  • Kathleen Smythe

    Not surprising to hear this from Hillsong. They are a touchy-feely church that spends more time on worship and less time on the teaching of God’s word. The emotional experience is more important than teaching the doctrines of the Bible and the message of repentance and salvation.

    • Edith

      I really don’t know this church, but I do agree that some churches spend more time wanting emotional experiences rather than learning God’s word. I know myself that sometimes I think our services are so dead. Most of the time the dead is me. One has to spend time in God’s word and always NEED to study his word. I cannot expect to go to church to get revived every time I attend, it really depends on ME.

  • Darby C. Reger

    “It is my understanding that they have not been involved in an active leadership or ministry role since.” – His understanding? – like, is the guy the senior pastor, or the janitor – we don’t expect the janitor to know what’s going on with who’s allowed to minister in a church, but the senior pastor better know what’s going on in his own church.

  • Jeannie Miller

    Why are they allowing them to remain at all? 1 Corinthians 5 is clear:

    “It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality
    of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone
    has his father’s wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

    For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”

  • Martin Mayberry

    You can NOT be gay and be a Christian! Paul said that in Romans Chapter 1gays are deserving of death according to Romans chapter 1. Attempting to convince me they are ‘normal” is a waste of time! they are evil 100% that’s why the angels had to blind them in Sodom and Gomorrah! and that’s why they were destroyed by God! They were militant and evil and have Evil spirits controlling them! I have NO doubt about it!

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      True one should never cast pearls before swine.

  • WGB

    I think Leader Brian Houston handled the situation well. It appears minister Lentz still did not address the issue, but it was addressed by the senior pastor. I respect how he handled it.

  • thelordlives2011

    is another example of an Apostate Church. To be such a big church it is funny how they
    do not know how to read the Bible nor follow its teaching.

  • TheBottomline4This

    Silly non-Christians.

  • jenkins_laurence

    having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

    2 Timothy 3:5