Christians Jailed in Mexico for Refusing to Convert to Roman Catholicism

Mary Credit Lloyd Baltazar-compressed
Photo Credit: Lloyd Baltazar

(Charisma News) International Christian Concern (ICC) has learned that seven Evangelical Christians in Chiapas, Mexico, were incarcerated on December 15 after refusing to convert to Catholicism. State and federal authorities had been informed of threats to illegally expel or incarcerate members of the Evangelical community weeks in advance but have refused to intervene.

The imprisonment comes as the culmination of an ultimatum that was given by local officials of Leyva Velazques, a municipality of Las Margaritas, Chiapas, to the local Evangelical community to convert to Catholicism, leave the village, or face prison.

According to Luis Herrera, Director of the Coordination of Christian Council of Churches, eight families in the village have succumbed to the ultimatum and signed documents indicating their conversion to Catholicism. Mexico’s Constitution explicitly protects the right of all citizens to profess and practice the religious belief of their choice. The seven who are currently jailed have refused to convert.

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  • Oboehner

    Well obviously catholics don’t see themselves as Christian either.

    • Frank

      A lot of them will tell you they are not Christian but they are catholic, making the distinction themselves.

    • Valri

      Catholics see themselves as the original Christians, which along with the orthodox, they are.

      • Oboehner

        Having murdered thousands of Christians, doesn’t make them the originals by default.
        The catholics ignore too much scripture to be even considered Christian.

        • Valri

          That’s crap, sorry. They were there before you. If you call yourself Christian and you are not Catholic, then you are a product of the Protestant Reformation. You are a Protestant.

          • Oboehner

            St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. You really shouldn’t argue things you know nothing about, The Protestant Reformation was disgruntled catholics who discovered the truth. Christians existed long before Simon Magus, Constantine and the reformation.

          • Valri

            What happened on 1572 was not as simple as that, the
            Huguenots (Protestants) were camped with an army outside Paris and were plotting to take over the Louvre Palace and kill the French government including the king, they were planning a military coup, a revolution.

            As a result of this the French King armed the citizens of Paris to repulse this threat of the Huguenots to take Paris by force.

            But then the king lost control of the people and they in their fear of
            the Huguenots began to attack them. You have to remember shortly before this the Huguenots had just recently been trying to destroy Catholicism in France by killing Catholics in the War of Religion.

            The attack was not a pre-meditated massacre, it was a response by
            Parisians to the fear caused by the very real plot of the Huguenots to overthrow the government and force Protestantism upon the French people just as protestant leaders did in several other countries such as England for example.

            As such it saved France from been taken over by the Protestants who were at this time making war with Catholics throughout Europe. And the number killed was less than 10,000.

            Protestants complain about it because they lost, they never complain about the thousands upon thousands of Catholics massacred by men like Oliver Cromwell though.

            Your brand of Christianity branched from Catholicism. You should be grateful to them, not trashing them.

          • Oboehner

            Where did you get that bilge, a catholic site no doubt. So women, children, and the elderly posed a threat to catholicism? How about the inquisition? The RCC was (is) a bunch of blood thirsty butchers who killed off thousands of innocent people in cold blood.

            King Charles IX of France, under the sway of his mother, Catherine de Medici, orders the assassination of Huguenot Protestant leaders in Paris, setting off an orgy of killing that results in the massacre of tens of thousands of Huguenots all across France.
            Two days earlier, Catherine had ordered the murder of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, a Huguenot leader whom she felt was leading her son into war with Spain. However, Coligny was only wounded, and Charles promised to investigate the assassination in order to placate the angry Huguenots. Catherine then convinced the young king that the Huguenots were on the brink of rebellion, and he authorized the murder of their leaders by the Catholic authorities. Most of these Huguenots were in Paris at the time, celebrating the marriage of their leader, Henry of Navarre, to the king’s sister, Margaret.
            A list of those to be killed was drawn up, headed by Coligny, who was brutally beaten and thrown out of his bedroom window just before dawn on August 24. Once the killing started, mobs of Catholic Parisians, apparently overcome with bloodlust, began a general massacre of Huguenots. Charles issued a royal order on August 25 to halt the killing, but his pleas went unheeded as the massacres spread. Mass slaughters continued into October, reaching the provinces of Rouen, Lyon, Bourges, Bourdeaux, and Orleans. An estimated 3,000 French Protestants were killed in Paris, and as many as 70,000 in all of France. The massacre of Saint Bartholomew’s Day marked the resumption of religious civil war in France. – History dot com.
            “On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome.”-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)
            “Your brand of Christianity branched from catholicism.” Nope, catholicism is a twisting of Christianity infused with paganism, there are many examples of this – from the RCC changing the Sabbath to Sunday (the sun god day) to the dagon the fish god hats, to Ishtar to winter solstice, etc. etc.

          • Valri

            Pure unadulterated hate garbage and revisionist history straight from Jack Chick’s cesspool.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzz…… mary worshipers living in denial always say that.

          • Valri

            Zzzzz….denial of history, denial of science, denial of reality. Fundie to a T.

          • Oboehner

            History dot com – no denial of history there, so you must be referring to revisionist catholic propaganda history. That’s really not history.
            Assumption, speculation, and religious belief does not equal science – no denial there.
            Just mary worshiper BS.

          • Valri

            Dictionary dot com – try looking up Catholic and you’ll see this:

            “pertaining to the whole Christian body or church”

            Looks like you lose, doesn’t it?

          • Oboehner

            Nope. catholocism- redressed paganism.

          • Valri

            Only in your alternate Oboehner-reality, which is to say, not reality at all. We didn’t walk with dinosaurs 6000 years ago, snakes cannot talk, and Catholics were among the first Christians. All facts.

          • Oboehner

            You forgot dot’s don’t explode, ooze doesn’t create life, an ape type creature did not change into man (let alone exist), assumption and speculation are not science, and catholics ignore scripture therefore they are not of the Christian faith but of some altered belief system.

          • Valri

            Dots explode – not a scientific theory
            Ooze creates life – not a scientific theory
            Ape type creature changed into man – not a scientific theory
            Catholics ignore scripture – Catholics canonized the Bible.

            All facts.

            You would do well to tell your fundie pastor to go back to street corner preaching and stop misrepresenting his opposition because he’s creating a culture of ignorant, sad-looking fools.

          • Oboehner

            Exploding dot, if not that what? If no answer, I will assume that’s the story.
            “Ooze creates life – not a scientific theory” It may not be scientific but is widely accepted (like evolutionism), it rained on a rock 4.6 billion years ago and life just appeared out of the primordial ooze.
            Ape type creature changed into man, another part of the story – unless you can come up with something else.
            “Catholics canonized the Bible” Nope, old testament was canonized by the Hebrews, the New Testament was canonized in the Second Council of Trullan of 692, the catholics didn’t stick their pagan fingers into it until later. Makes one wonder why they choose to ignore it and why you keep glossing over that fact with your lame “fundie” comments.

          • Valri

            “Exploding dot, if not that what? If no answer, I will assume that’s the story.”

            Spoken like a true fundamentalist. If the answer is not known, you provide one out of the blue for your opposition for you to ridicule, even though it isn’t your opposition’s position at all.

            “It may not be scientific but is widely accepted”

            And so is “we don’t know yet” which is a valid answer and a lot more honest than the talking snake.

            “Ape type creature changed into man, another part of the story – unless you can come up with something else.”

            Humans share A COMMON ANCESTOR with modern African apes. They didn’t “change into man”, that isn’t evolution and not how it works.

            The plain fact of the matter is that the canon of the Bible was not
            settled in the first years of the Church. It was settled only after
            repeated (and perhaps heated) discussions, and the final listing was
            determined by Catholic bishops. This is an inescapable fact, no matter how many people such as yourself wish to escape from it. But as a fundie, dishonesty is central to your tactics.

          • Oboehner

            Exploding dot, the science textbooks must be wrong or “out of the blue”.
            “we don’t know yet” That covers the whole evolutionism religion, but that doesn’t keep people from stating it as a fact.
            “Humans share A COMMON ANCESTOR with modern African apes.” Religious belief, nothing more. There is NO evidence some mythological “common ancestor” ever existed, it is a story fabricated based on someone’s religious view. Again, prove to me (if you can) that any DNA similarities are not as a result of a common designer. Try really hard not to skirt that one again.

            Nope, Old Testament was canonized by the Hebrews, the New Testament was canonized in the Second Council of Trullan of 692. This is an inescapable fact, no matter how many people such as yourself wish to escape from it. But as a mary worshiper, dishonesty is central to your tactics.

          • Valri

            Evolution is not a religion. It is science. Your friend Mr. Webster will confirm that, unless you’re going to selectively decide that he’s lying to you again. Only a fundamentalist will look at a dictionary definition and argue with it. Catholics are Christians, and if you’re going to fight with the dictionary about it, then you’re hopeless. You are hopeless anyway because you do the same thing with evolution being taught in science class in schools. Millions of people are wrong and you are right. Fundie-ism to a T. TOTAL Jack Chick.

            I’m not a Christian OR a Catholic, so your Mary-worshiper comments are not just stupid and offensive but inaccurate. Not that that’s ever stopped them before. Your mouth opens and the hateful, lying rot just pours out.

          • Oboehner

            My friend Webster is hardly proof. The proof is in evolutionism itself – it is a religion plain and simple. Sad part is the only argument you offer is an attack on the faith of others appeal to authority (Webster) arguments, ad hominem attacks, and lame arguments about popular opinion based on school brainwashing. If government schools taught the moon was made of cheese, millions would believe that lie as well.

            Catholics are catholics, next you’ll be trying to tell me Mormons are “Christian”, or JW’s or whomever.
            If you are not catholic your defense of them is steeped in ignorance and irrelevant. Your mouth opens and the hateful, lying rot just pours out.

          • Valri

            Yes, the dictionary IS proof. Evolutionism, whatever that is, might well be religion because you’ve made it up, but evolution is fact. Hide your head in the sand all you want. You’ve been told before that to look something up in an authoritative source is not an “appeal to authority”. Evolution has no holy book, no divine leader, and “appeals” to nothing except what we have learned about it. It would not be legal for the schools to teach it in science were it not factual.

            If you want to attack JWs and Mormons, and there’s no doubt in my mind that you do, they at least came long, long after Catholicism, as did your fundamentalist cult. History does not lie. You need to learn this….over and over, apparently.

          • Oboehner

            Nope, saying it over and over still doesn’t make it true, still a religion – no facts whatsoever. It is a belief system that guides people, popular opinion (which by the way isn’t science).

          • Valri

            Let me break it down for you:

            Fundamentalist Christianity – holy book, check; charismatic leader, check; faith-based, check; threat of eternal punishment for not believing in it, check. Religion, not science.

            Evolution: no holy book, no leader, fact and evidence based. Science, not religion.

            I hope this sinks into your fevered fundie brain someday.

          • Oboehner

            Fundamentalist Christianity not relevant in any way to the religion of evolutionism.
            Evolutionism: blind faith, check; a belief system, check; a religion, yup.
            You are right science is not religion, evolution is not science. You have nothing to say otherwise.

          • Valri

            Fundamentalist Christianity absolutely 100% relevant. No other cult calls faith science and calls science faith, ignores history books and authoritative reference texts such as the dictionary, hates other Christians and insists on Bible being 100% literal. You are an embarrassment on a colossal, unbelievable level, even among REAL Christians. You are a joke.

          • Oboehner

            “No other cult calls faith science and calls science faith” Wrong, catholicism and evolutionism.
            Like all other gullible ignorant believers in the evolutionism religion, you just can’t seem to find anything of substance for your religion to stand on, so you resort to attacking the faith of others.
            And straight from the evolutionism playbook –
            Ad hominem: “You are an embarrassment on a colossal, unbelievable level…”
            Appeal to authority: “history books and authoritative reference texts”

          • Valri

            If you are a science-denying, reality-denying fundamentalist zealot who believes school children are being lied to and that history books are lying when they say Catholics pre-dated fundamentalist Christians, and in fact the entire Protestant Reformation in the process, not to mention a gay-bashing bigot, you are entirely deserving of every ad hominem sent your way. You’re an embarrassment to humanity.

          • Oboehner

            There is no science to deny, therefore your ad hominem is meaningless. Don’t much care what catholic history books say, they change. Like I said before, the Protestant Reformation was not the start of Christianity, so the whole “catholics were first” thing can be put to rest. The Protestant Reformation was merely catholics who studied and found the RCC was wrong and nothing more than redressed paganism.
            The only thing embarrassing is how people with so-called “science” on their side have only ad hominems and appeal to authority.

          • Valri

            It is ALL science. ALL of it. Does that begin to give you any idea of the SCOPE that you are wrong on? This isn’t a little boo boo. This is a colossal, mother of an error that is going to haunt you for years unless you take the time to properly educate yourself and un-fundie yourself.

            The Protestant Reformation was not the start of Christianity, but that’s not the point. The point is for there to be a Reformation there had first to be a Catholicism to break away from. Which all the non-Catholic Christians DID.

          • Oboehner

            I see you are still beating the dead “science” horse. Give it a rest, you or no one else has ever come up with any science proving any of your religion.

          • Valri

            Is that right? Can you find me even a handful of people who believe such utter garbage? Why are you denying what the rest of us see right in front of our eyes?

          • Oboehner

            Give it a rest, you or no one else has ever come up with any science proving any of your religion.

          • Valri

            No, Oboehner. Everyone has. You lost this battle decades ago. Time for you to lose it gracefully. Evolution isn’t a religion by anyone’s definition except your own.

          • Oboehner

            Empty rhetoric.

          • Valri

            It had to be some pretty powerful fundamentalist juju that got you convinced to ignore reality so spectacularly.

          • Oboehner

            There was Christianity, then simon magus and Constantine twisted it with paganism, then the refomers realized the false teaching of the RCC and spoke out – simple really.

          • Valri

            Whatever you say, Jack Chick.

          • Oboehner

            Catholic : of or relating to the Roman Catholic Church.
            -Webster’s Dictionary

          • Valri

            Conveniently omitting all other definitions also provided in the same entry. Noted. Here they are just in case you “forgot” them:

            a) (often capitalized) : of, relating to, or forming the church universal

            b) (often capitalized) : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it

            You’re starting to remind me very much of a member of another group. Let’s see now, WHO is it that claims to be a Christian group, hates Catholics, hates homosexuals and hates blacks?

            Oboehner, are you a member of the Ku Klux Klan?

          • Oboehner

            Conveniently using the top definition, the one that fits.
            I don’t hate anyone, your little straw man approach doesn’t cut it, sorry.

          • Valri

            Conveniently ignoring the full definition to ignore the part of reality that conflicts with your bigotry.

            You hate. Plenty. And you didn’t answer my question. Are you a member of the Ku Klux Klan?

          • Oboehner

            The RCC, the KKK, not much difference – just ask Hitler. Catholic with a capital “C” is the RCC, with a small “c” used to mean universal church before the RCC with a capital “C” hijacked the term attempting to legitimize it’s bogus claims. Much like the term “gay” was hijacked by perverts.

          • Valri

            Considering the hatred that the KKK harbors towards the Catholic church, yes, I would say it is a HUGE difference. You post nothing here but negativity, lies and hatred. If that’s what being a Christian is to you, good luck in life.

          • Oboehner

            The RCC, the KKK, not much difference – just ask Hitler.

          • Valri

            Sorry, not interested in fundie revisionist history, especially from someone who doesn’t believe evolution exists.

          • Oboehner

            Don’t care, don’t care about the evolutionism religion either – nothing to care about.

          • Valri

            No one’s talking about your made-up word “evolutionism”. We are talking about the accepted science of evolution.

          • Oboehner

            What, isn’t evolution a word? Because “ism” is a real suffix.
            You are talking about a popular opinion religion that is “accepted” due to government school brainwashing and people too emotionally invested or lazy to look at it and see the emperor has no clothes. I peg you for the emotionally invested type.

          • Valri

            Schools brainwashing? On that grand a scale? How about simply admitting you are wrong? Otherwise you look like a conspiracy theorist, and that isn’t good. You can tack “ism” onto any belief system you like and make it a legitimate word, but “evolution” isn’t a belief system. It’s a fact. And that’s what you’re trying to do, turn it into a belief. You’re several decades too late for that.

          • Oboehner

            Run by the government with standardized testing and curriculum put forth by secular humanists.
            Admit I am wrong? I wouldn’t want to be a liar. Don’t much care what I look like – I consider the source.
            Evolution IS a belief system.

          • Valri

            Yup, secular humanists worldwide. Why is that a problem for you? Would you rather it was a group of people adhering to some stone age religion, and which one would you like that to be? You should really be careful what you wish for. You seem just fine with totalitarianism as long as it’s your BRAND of it.

          • Oboehner

            A stone age religion like secular humanism? I would just be happy with the truth – the RCC and evolutionism ain’t it.

            “You seem just fine with totalitarianism as long as it’s your BRAND of it.” Back at ya, although I never said you weren’t free to believe in your religion, just don’t try and tell me it is anything but a religion and use my tax dollars to brainwash my children with those lies either.

          • Valri

            OK, level with me, is this a standup comedy routine? The LACK of religion has how become a religion using whatever it is you use for logic?

            Let me ask you then, Einstein, if evolution is “religion” just the same as your belief, what IS science? Does it even exist? Are all these thousands of people earning a living in the science field working with evolution just part of your grand conspiracy theory?

            I won’t address your RCC comments because they’re just obnoxious and ridiculous statements of ignorance and hatred.

          • Oboehner

            There is no lack, quite the opposite.

            Science is observable, testable, and repeatable, evolutionism is none of these. There are thousands of dissenters (being under constant attack) Are all these thousands of people earning a living in the science field dissenting evolution just part of your grand conspiracy theory?

            Smart move as you know nothing on the subject.

          • Valri

            “Science is observable, testable, and repeatable, evolutionism is none of these”

            The fossil record. You’re welcome.

          • Oboehner

            The fossil record shows dead animals, so what’s your point? It still doesn’t prove any more than pictures of road kill, you gave me nothing but speculation, assumption, and something I have to take on faith.

          • Valri

            The fossil record shows animals that have been dead for millions of years that don’t exist anymore. And how they gradually evolved.

            Would love to see what your science report card looked like when you were in junior high school. Assuming you’re not still there.

          • Oboehner

            “dead for millions of years” Speculation, religious belief.
            “that don’t exist anymore” Observable.
            “how they gradually evolved” Speculation, religious belief.

            “Assuming you’re not still there” Ad hominem, just can’t get away from that can you?

          • Valri

            “Dead for millions of years” – neither speculation nor religious belief but scientific fact. It fulfills NO criteria for being a religious belief.
            “That don’t exist anymore” – observable. Obviously. And why don’t they exist anymore?
            “How they gradually evolved” – neither speculation nor religious belief but studied and measured scientific fact which fulfills no critera for being a religious belief.
            You’re not doing so well, are you? Not even recognizing that these aren’t ad hominems. For you to believe the utterly fantastical things you’re saying out loud, you fit the profile of the junior high school student. Barely.
            And you’re very good at attacking all the established facts and calling them religion, but never state your own belief. I call that cowardly. It seems pretty obvious to me that it’s religious fundamentalism, since NO ONE ELSE would say such things, nor spit out such poisonous hatred to the likes of homosexuals and Catholics. But you’re welcome to prove me wrong.

          • Oboehner

            Like I said before, post the beginning radiation levels for any rock that has been dated millions of years, then maybe I’ll believe that it’s science. Until then it is ALL speculation and assumption and religious belief.
            Demonstrate that the fossil is transitional by showing all of it’s offspring, until then it is just more religious belief.
            There are no established facts, just more assumption, speculation and religious belief.

          • Valri

            “Post the beginning radiation levels for any rock that has been dated millions of years, then maybe I’ll believe that it’s science.”
            It isn’t necessary to do that in order to know how old the rock is. There are several methods and they act like a checks-and-balances system to know that they are accurate. Do you need to understand the wiring mechanism in your television set to believe that it works? No, you just turn it on, and the fact that you see a TV program is proof that the people who built it understand the field they are working in. You have been taught that unless someone dumbs it down enough for you to understand it, you will steadfastly claim that it’s religion and not science. Sucks to be you.

          • Oboehner

            “isn’t necessary to do that in order to know how old the rock is” One cannot determine the amount of radioactive decay with out knowing how much was there to begin with. That would render any results as worthless. Worthless as any “checks and balances” as the level wouldn’t be know there either. That is just foolish as accusing someone of eating half of the chips when you have no clue as to how many there were to begin with.

            “fact that you see a TV program” Observable, apples to oranges, the key word is see. How many examples of macro evolution have you seen over the last million years or so? LOL
            Dumb it down? It can get any dumber.

          • Valri

            You are extremely sad and pitiful.

          • Oboehner

            I’m not the one desperately clinging to a religion I can’t defend and wishing it were science.

          • Valri

            Right, me and every other human being that either got past a kindergarten education or didn’t have our brains corrupted by fundamentalist crapola. Except we call it what it is – science, not religion. That’s your terrain, Boner.

  • Nidalap

    Constitution-shmonstitution! Looks like somebody down there has a pen and a phone…

  • 201821208 :)

    gotquestions dot org/difference-Catholic-Protestant dot html

  • Names_Stan

    Will be very interesting to find out if this is true. I can find no news organization reporting this outside three evangelical sources.

    On the surface it doesn’t stand up to logic:
    A) Mexico’s constitution grants religious freedom
    B) People charged with not converting to RCC
    Therefore C) How could there be such a charge on the books if it’s negated by the constitution?

    • Canada’s Crown pigs don’t follow their own Constitution (what State does?) – and you expect corrupt Mexico to do so? LOL!

      • Names_Stan

        I didn’t speak of expectations, but logic; I see no mention of Canada anywhere; and I admire your ability to make your own self laugh so hard and allcapsy.

        Most people don’t find their own selves so hilarious.

        • karolekay

          You seem to have a very high opinion of your wit, Stan. What are you? Twelve? It is usually futile to try to explain anything to people of your intelligence, but the point is, constitutions anywhere are only useful if people are committed to upholding them. To think that a government as corrupt as Mexico’s will automatically stand up against the RCC in some small, inconsequential village shows complete lack of understanding of the power of the RCC and the history of Mexico.

          • Names_Stan

            I said most people don’t find themselves so hilarious. On what basis did you think I was excluding myself, and determine instead that I think I’m witty?

            As to your ad hominem, you’ll find it rather impossible to pull me down into an insult contest. (A point of genuine frustration for some True Christians™.)

            The mysterious and conspiratorial “power” of the RCC aside, all I said was it will be interesting to see if this story is true. I don’t take anything as fact from any sources who are selling a particular narrative.

      • rcvj

        I haven’t noticed this. Could you provide a sample?

    • karolekay

      You must be Catholic. News organizations other than “evangelical sources” have no interest in this story, nor do they see it as news. Our US constitution grants religious freedom, too, Stan, but Christians here are being forced out of business, fined, and put in jail for contempt of court for standing up for their religious convictions.

      • Names_Stan

        Then why didn’t the story quote the exact charge, instead of paraphrasing “after refusing to convert”?

        If that’s the charge, which will surprise me, a journalist would ask a spokesperson for the code number and frequency of those charges over the past year. If the journalist got no comment, they would name the source and report that response.

        No story can be called “news” if it only quotes one source, and that source represents one side of a conflict. That’s exactly what this article entails. That’s clue number one that something is off here.

        Clue number two is a Twitter search for the key words found here. What it reveals is that the verbiage used in the headline is the exact same headline at the other two or three websites. It means that the other websites are simply reproducing this information.

        Is it possible this is true? Sure. But I don’t think it’s even 50/50. I figure there’s an 80% chance that this one guy quoted is leaving something out, or simply lying about the real reason these people are in jail.

        And lastly, you can be absolutely assured that if CBS or whoever can confirm that Mexican citizens have been charged and jailed on “not converting to Catholicism”, they will run it as a fairly major story. It’s ridiculous enough to create a lot of interest. (Which is the main reason I doubt the story. It’s simply ridiculous.)

        When you and this website have some documentation, I’m happy to say my “80% more to the story” supposition was wrong.

        (And no, I’m not Catholic, nor am I a fundamentalist evangelical, nor am I a charismatic. I’m a mainliner, as tradition called it. Mainliners are critical thinkers, and don’t take something for truth just because we want it to be. The fact is, this jailing either happened based on these claims or they didn’t. One is true, the other is not. I have no dog in either hunt, but I want to know what is true.)

        • karolekay

          No, they don’t report anything about Christian persecution, Stan, whether it’s in Mexico, the Middle East, China, North Korea, India – anywhere.

          • Names_Stan

            Really? Bill O’Reilly reports every time some kid says “happy holidays”.
            Why isn’t he leveraging this to lather up his audience?

            Again, if the story can find no traction outside of one author, then for whatever reason, it’s not a story.

          • karolekay

            So, now you’re saying because Bill O’Reilly hasn’t said anything about it, it’s not true? You’re now a “one sourcer?” FYI, he is a devout Catholic, so if you want any info on anything happening that reflects negatively on Catholicism, you won’t hear it from him. Again, Christian persecution is old news, and nobody cares except a few other Christians.

          • Names_Stan

            FYI, he is a devout Catholic

            Fair enough.

            Anybody from Fox profiting from “war on Christmas” foolishness will do.

            As will any news source in any country, quoting anyone outside of dude from the Foundation for Persecuted Mexican Fundamentalists (or whatever he was), for starters.

          • Names_Stan

            Again, Christian persecution is old news, and nobody cares except a few other Christians.

            Well here you have a bit of a problem. It’s another logic issue, and it can be illustrated in two questions:

            A) Do you doubt the Pew’s numbers, or do you mean that most people who say they’re Christians really aren’t True Christians™?
            (Pew says the percentage of Americans identifying as Christians has fallen from 78% to 71% over the past seven years.)
            Anyway, Problem A: 7 out of 10 people identify as Christians, and a 30% minority, especially a completely unorganized minority, can’t persecute the 70% majority.

            B) If you go with “there are only a few “True Christians™”, and you folks are being persecuted by us Not-True-Christians, you have a different problem:
            Problem B: Christians on the right who have politicized Christianity claim they should be able to put their religion in schools, courthouses and ball games. The basis used for this argument is, guess what? The majority.

            Which way do you want it? There are only a few of you, and you’re liable to be dragged out of your home at any minute by pitchfork-wielding atheists?
            Or the sheer number of Christians is so large, we should make Jewish and Muslim kids hear Christian prayers in their parents’ taxpayer funded schools?

            It can’t be both.

    • The wicked have no respect for God’s law. In other news, the wicked have no respect for man’s law either. Constitution shmostitution. You don’t need to be charged to be behind a locked door. If you need to be charged, then there’s hooliganism, public drunkenness, resisting arrest and failure to display a valid dog licence.

      • Names_Stan

        Finally someone who comprehends my post by admitting it’s terribly unlikely anybody in Mexico has been “charged with not converting to Catholicism”.

        And, if that is indeed the case…that they were charged with public drunkenness…then the burden for providing journalistic evidence changes.

        Rather than needing to provide a booking sheet or similar (which as discussed wasn’t done here, not even close), the new burden requires an all-sides discussion on why the “real reason” is refusing to convert.

        This stuff isn’t rocket science. Think of it this way: if something is demonstrably true, then what author wouldn’t demonstrate that truth by putting the evidence into the story? It’s just not logical.

        Now if a story is questionable, or more a narrative than a truth, what an author would do is have a single quote from some club or society who need said narrative to increase donations.

        What a coincidence.

        • While the justice system in the USA may be dysfunctional, in other countries it manages to be far worse. There is no science about it: go and get locked up in rural Mexico, and find out for yourself how the “system” works. Until then, you have no material except baseless speculation for your story.

  • FoJC_Forever

    There was a time when Catholics did this regularly and there was no power by anyone or any government to stop them. Catholic leaders and their attack dogs are still working behind the scenes to track, harass, and harm those who speak out against their false religion pretending to represent Jesus (the) Christ. We were born into perilous times.

    Follow Jesus, find Truth.

    • Names_Stan

      Lemme get this straight.

      There was a (past) time “when Catholics did this regularly”…

      But the present is perilous…

      Because they’re out to get you.

      Okay.

      Well, watch your back out there. I’m sure they’re tracking you as we speak. I’ve heard tin foil is a good tracking inhibitor.

      • Valri

        No one hates Catholics as much as evangelicals. I’ve never quite understood why.

        • Names_Stan

          It really is hard to understand. I’m from the South and I never heard a single word of anti-Catholic sentiment growing up. When we vacationed my parents enjoyed touring cathedrals, and I still do that today.

          Maybe it was because we didn’t have a Catholic parish in my area, but it just never connected with me that there were anti-Catholics in the states.

          I guess we’re fortunate that it’s not violent as it certainly was in the UK for centuries. But the way so many people are moving away from Christ as a foundation for peace, there’s no telling where things will end up.

          The problem as I see it is, 99% of the people online are just talking tough, and over-blowing this perceived “persecution” against them as fundamentalists.
          But the 1%. The mentally ill, who are influenced by the 99%’s Sky-Is-Falling language…they’re the ones who do harm and make the news.

          • Valri

            Sadly some of the worst anti-Catholics I’ve seen are right on this page. The gentleman with the name beginning with O. Exhibit A right there. One of the worst insults I’ve seen come out of him is “Mary worshiper”. I grew up Catholic and we never worshiped Mary.

          • Names_Stan

            You’re right, it’s on these exclusionary sites more than anywhere. Makes me wonder how exactly these folks want the world to look in a couple more generations.

            Well, obviously they wish for the end of the world, because they think their booksellers have correctly decoded select verses from Revelation, I Thes and Daniel. But most of them are surely bright enough to know there just might still be a world here fifty years from now.

            And while the Muslims only have two major sects globally, Christians have splits upon splits upon splits. Even regional ones specific to just our country.

            And not happy with that, they want enmity with the Roman Catholics…who at least don’t break off and form a new church every six months over the interpretation of one verse of scripture or one preacher’s affair.

            That’s not counting the huge numbers of younger people born into the faith that quickly see it as a haven for sour-faced, pessimistic people to sit around and chat about all the souls who God will someday torture on their behalf.

          • Valri

            It’s important to remember that these people are very much in the minority, even among regular Christians. They are just louder and less balanced.

            “Last Trump” – not sure if you’ve had the pleasure – his very name suggests “end times”. And most of his posts suggest that the world is so completely horrible and out to get the Christians that if there was a rapture button he’d waste no time in pushing it.

            I personally see it as a paranoid revenge fantasy. You almost picture them sitting on the sidelines cheering as God throws the gay people into the lake of fire, just absolutely gleeful about the revenge they will get on all the people who had the nerve not to agree with them about their crazed beliefs.

          • Names_Stan

            All true except “almost picture”. I’m in the South…I have a very clear picture of the mindset of this fantasy. Many are convinced, not only that torture is the top spectator sport in heaven, but that it will remain interesting and fun for billions upon billions of years.

            I’m hoping my neighborhood is way across town from that stadium. I’ll be happy with a throwback 80’s club and trivial pursuit. 🙂

          • Valri

            So much of this belief system is based on hatred and fear and they’ve been indoctrinated to believe that this is somehow what God wants. It’s very sad. I don’t live in the south but I’m curious why so much of this is concentrated there.

            I’ve got certain issues with Catholicism too – primarily the attitudes towards human sexuality – but for the most part they are reasonable people and don’t do things like fight evolution.

          • Names_Stan

            I don’t live in the south but I’m curious why so much of this is concentrated there.

            I speak often against over-generalizing, so realize that my answer isn’t meant to be complete…

            But the foundational reason sociology will record for this phenomenon is The Southern Strategy, and its eventual demise.

            A couple of sources for you:
            The film “Best of Enemies”, examining the rift between Vidal and Buckley during the 1968 conventions. And,
            A story in The Nation this fall about the end of the Strategy…the rift between Southerners and Republican elites.

            The short version is that the Dixiecrats became staunch Republicans after the Civil Rights Act and Nixon’s codified racism of “law and order” during the Republican National Convention.
            Under Nixon and Reagan, the power in the party was able to court the celebrity preachers, without giving them too much sway.

            That shifted later in the 1980’s, when the “Coalition” and other iterations of it began to shape the narrative more and more.

            Eventually people in the South figured out that educated Republicans just pretended to oppose all abortion and despise gay people. That’s when candidates like Cruz were able to be elected on a Republican ticket, by actually throwing rocks AT their own party.

            The Dixiecrats then became the Tea Party, and they have quickly leaned just how ashamed of them establishment Republicans really are.

            Simultaneously there’s been a sharp decrease in the influence that the Christian Coalition once had at the highest levels of Republican leadership. So when influence declines, “persecution” becomes the uniting cry inside the diminishing numbers.

            What they probably don’t realize is the real loss of influence was their own fault, and not establishment Republicans.

            Note that this week Billy Graham’s son made the (barely even noticed) announcement that he was done with the Republicans. In the 80’s you would’ve seen dozens of celeb preachers standing on a podium together. And just the THREAT of that degree of unity caused their word to hold sway.

            So why did Christian conservative lose this unity? Well, you can see clues on here to that answer all the time:
            Since the 1970’s, the emphasis in evangelical circles became almost entirely “what you believe”, rather than “what you do about what you believe”. Conservative seminaries stopped the focus on the life and ministry of Christ. They had purges of many professors. And the defense of each denominations interpretation of scripture, and their protection of their own brand of inerrancy…this suddenly became the religion itself.

            And here we are. 🙂

          • Names_Stan

            And most of his posts suggest that the world is so completely horrible

            A word about this as well. This idea really shocked me for a while, and I would often argue and cite all the horror of history, recent and ancient. But it falls on deaf ears. People are generally egocentric to the point that they need a worldview of their location, in their day, on their narrative, being the “most” ____________.

            Fill in the blank. You’ll hear it’s the most awful, the most important, and the most signs of the end times, and the most criminal a godless.

            Yet you could probably take every atrocity committed over the last 40 years, and they would be a fraction of what occurred between 1914 and 1918. And that’s just one example.

            If this window in history avoids a nuclear tragedy, it will probably only be remembered for the birth of instant access to knowledge and connectivity of people. Nothing else will be said of any consequence imo. Connectivity will lead to major shifts. Governmental alliances and currency failures and a new wave of micro business and awful hacker attacks and climate solutions. But we’ll only be remembered for paving the way for these great and terrible things.

        • Catholicism tries to make God’s Grace into works. Any MORE questions?

    • Frank

      I had heard reports of this going on in every catholic run country a few years back.

    • Valri

      How very sad you would believe such nonsense and hatred towards your fellow Christians.

      • FoJC_Forever

        It has already been established as Truth that catholicism is not Christianity. Those who know Jesus know this Truth. Those who want to be deceived accept the lies put forth by this false doctrine.

        Quit trolling me and go talk to someone who wants to be engaged with you.

        Follow Jesus, find Truth.

        • Valri

          Who established it? You, or Jack Chick, or some other Catholic hating bigot?

          Like it or not, they are the largest denomination of Christianity in the world with over 1 billion members. And they predate your little fundamentalist cult by almost 2000 years.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Jesus established it. If you were His, then you would know the Truth.

          • Valri

            Arrogant hateful fundie garbage.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Just the Truth.

          • Valri

            No. If it were truth you could prove it. And you can’t. Call it what it is – your opinion.

          • FoJC_Forever

            It is Truth. On Judgement Day you will most certainly see, but hopefully before then, so that you can call upon Jesus (the) Christ for Salvation.

            Follow Jesus, find Truth.

          • Valri

            It is not your place to say or know what happens on Judgment Day because you are not God.

          • FoJC_Forever

            It is not your place to tell me what God has told me or not told me. You are a liar and a deceiver, you are the deceived. Go follow your goddess infused, false religion, because I’m not going to Hell with you.

            Judgement is coming.

          • Valri

            If judgement is coming, it’s coming for you. How dare you attack your fellow Christians like that, especially those you branched from. That’s appalling behavior, and the ignorance of basic history is equally disgusting.

          • FoJC_Forever

            “If”? Oh, it’s coming for everyone. However, catholics are pagans pretending to be Christians, so they are not hidden in Christ, in God. Your demoralizing, condescending attitude is irrelevant. I don’t bow my knee or will to the pope and your pagan doctrines.

          • Valri

            No, sir. Catholics are where it all started, along with the Orthodox. That’s just straightforward history. What you are spouting is hate, nothing more or less. No one worships the Pope, he’s simply the head of the church, just as your church also has a human leader.

          • karolekay

            Actually, Valri, the Church was started by a Jew, not a Catholic, over 300 years before there was a Catholic/Orthodox church. There is one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ – not layers of priests. He paid for our sins that we could be reconciled to the Father, and we become Christians when we accept His gift of forgiveness. You can’t earn that forgiveness by lighting candles and endlessly repeating a meaningless rosary. Except for Jesus who, as the Son of God, was born without sin, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Mary. You worship Popes and saints and try to work your way to heaven – none of which is part of Christianity. Your church is full of biblical error, and if you truly care about the truth and your eternal destiny, you will start researching the differences between what Scripture teaches and what your religion teaches.

          • Valri

            You have wildly incorrect ideas about many things in this paragraph: the role of priest as “mediator”, the rosary and the lighting of candles (and in fact all the rituals), worshiping Mary and the Pope and saints, works as a means of getting into heaven, and sola scriptura.

            You have been taught all these things but Catholics don’t believe ANY of them. And so I must come to the conclusion that you are an evangelical, since no one else levels these criticisms against Catholics.

            The priest serves exactly the same role as your “pastor”.
            The rosary is an aid to prayer, nothing more.

            No one worships Mary. They might ask Mary to pray for them, but that’s called intercessory prayer and no different than asking your friends or family to pray for you.
            No one worships the pope. He’s simply the leader of the Catholic church, and his ideas complement Christianity, they do not detract from it. Doesn’t your church have a human leader? It must.
            Catholics believe in a combination of works and faith. Not works alone. “Faith without works is dead.”
            And finally Catholics are not Bible-only, they believe in three things: Scripture (the Bible), church teachings (the magisterium) and sacred tradition. You elected to throw two of those things away, good for you, but Catholics continue to hold fast to all three. If you say the other two are “man made”, well, they are no more man-made than the Bible itself.

          • karolekay

            I only know what my Catholic friends tell me and what I see. I see them praying rosaries like lucky charms or paying sentence. You are blind if you don’t see the other things. Maybe you don’t do them, but how can you deny Catholics worshiping dead saints? You need a reality check, because you are in total denial.

          • Valri

            Maybe rather than making assumptions about what your Catholic friends are doing, you could ask them rather than listen to what people who have no idea about them are saying. I think that would be more fair and make you look a little less hateful towards them.

            How can I deny Catholics worship dead saints? Because I WAS a Catholic, for a long time, and never did that. It’s like I said before, they ask the saint to pray on their behalf. It’s got nothing to do with worship. When have you ever heard a Catholic ask St. Christopher for salvation? Or Mary? Or the pope?

            Someone needs a reality check here, and it’s not me.

          • karolekay

            I make no assumptions, and you’re not listening, but those who are in denial usually don’t. I was also raised in a Catholic family and went to a Catholic school in high school, so you can’t blame what I say on me being evangelical. Again, just because you don’t do those things doesn’t mean they’re not done other places by other Catholics. Good for you.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Nope. Catholics are the ones the Apostles warned were coming. Those who follow Jesus can see the demonic power they hold over others and the world. The fallen world, the world that rejects Jesus and is not baptized by Him with the Holy Spirit looks to Catholicism as being Christianity, because they are blind. The blind lead the blind.

            Jesus is the Head of the Church, the real Church (His Body in the earth). The pope is the head of a false religion, and catholics worship him all the time, just as they practice many pagan rituals and beliefs. Catholicism isn’t the only false religion based on man-made and demonic doctrines that masquerades as Christianity, it’s just the most prominent.

          • Valri

            Your information is wrong. Catholics worship Jesus Christ. What you are spouting is hatred. The pope is simply the human leader of the church. Just as Jack Chick is the human leader of YOUR church.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I get my information from the LORD. It isn’t wrong, it’s Truth.

            The Church, the Body of Christ has only one leader, He is Jesus (the) Christ. Jack Chick , with whom I have no association, is not the leader of the Church either. The only Leader of the Church is Jesus, the Son of God.

          • Valri

            You get your information from a hate cult masquerading as a Christian organization. At least most other sects can agree to disagree about things, but oh no, not you. One billion Catholics are wrong and your little cult is right. And no one has lied to you I suppose.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Not true, I get my information from the LORD. You continue to follow your false way and it leads to Eternal Damnation. I don’t belong to a “little cult”. You belong to a big Cult, though, and a Deception orchestrated by Satan himself. Wide is the way to Destruction, and you are part of that false way.

            Judgement is coming.

          • Valri

            Judgement is NOT coming, and a faith as old as Catholicism and with as many adherents as it has is immediately disqualified from the word “cult”. Cults are small and new…like yours.

            I didn’t realize following Jesus Christ led to Eternal Damnation. It’s a special kind of stupid you’ve been stricken with.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You’re not saved from your Sin. If you’re a catholic, then you’re a pagan pretending to be a Christian.

            It’s curious why I have never heard of a catholic priest molesting girls. Maybe it’s happened, but it’s certainly rare compared to the many boys they have violated. I wonder why this is? Answer: Because the spirits that fill and promote catholicism are primarily “feminine” demons. Catholicism is nothing more than goddess worship trumped up to look like Christianity.

            Judgement is coming.

            Follow Jesus, find Truth.

          • Valri

            Isn’t it just amazing that of all the Christian denominations, over 30,000 of them, you’ve chosen the right one and everyone else is wrong, including the Catholics who were practicing Christianity oh, a couple of thousand years earlier?

            And it’s just Catholics with molestation issues? Wow, you need to get out a little more.

            StopBaptistPredators dog org (that’s just for starters).

            It’s time you called your anti-Catholic stance what it is – uninformed, ugly, ignorant hatred.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You have no clue who comprises the Body of Christ. You simply see man-made religion. Catholics have never practiced Christianity. Catholics are of the world, pagan in nature and practice.

          • Valri

            You are in no position to talk about man made religion. You took the established rules and changed them according to your whims, and then adhered to them as though they were the word of God. You are a fraud, and you’re basically a chihuahua nipping at the heels of an elephant in terms of how relevant your brand of Christianity is.

          • FoJC_Forever

            I changed nothing. The “established rules” of false religion are lies. Only through knowing Jesus can one know the Truth. Catholics teach the lies passed down to them from their predecessors. I care not to dissolve or destroy catholicism, for it will continue until the LORD destroys it along with all other unbelief.

            Mockery, the subtle mockery of Satan himself. I recognized you Devil, and I’m not going to Hell with you.

            Follow Jesus, find Freedom.

          • Valri

            So you magically chose the correct denomination and everyone else is wrong? All 30 thousand of them, including Catholics, the biggest one?

            And are you serious calling it unbelief? My grandmother was Catholic and the most devout Christian I’ve ever seen.

          • FoJC_Forever

            She’s a devout Catholic, not Christian. Muslims are devout in their Islamic beliefs. Being devout doesn’t make a person correct.

            Follow Jesus, find Truth.

          • Valri

            Catholics DO follow Jesus. They were among the earliest Christians, and if you look it up in the dictionary, you will have this fact confirmed.

            Or have you fundies decided you know better than the dictionary now?

  • Becky

    Too many Christians means less allegiance to the cartels.

  • BuckeyePhysicist

    Mexico is Catholic. I have no idea why Protestants waste their money to convert those already in Christ.