UK Prison Worker Barred from Chapel Services for Quoting Bible on Homosexuality Loses Case

Trayhorn-compressedCAMBRIDGESHIRE, U.K. — A Christian prison worker who was barred from participating in chapel services after quoting a Scripture that references homosexuality has lost his discrimination case before an employment tribunal.

As previously reported, Barry Trayhorn has been employed as a gardener at HMP Littlehey since 2011, and since 2012 he has volunteered to help with the chapel services at the invitation of the prison chaplain. The facility houses those who have been convicted of sex offenses.

In May of last year, while leading worship, Trayhorn felt led to quote from 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and exhort prisoners that forgiveness is available to those who will repent.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God,” the Scripture reads. “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

“As I led the worship, I spoke about the wonder of God’s love and the forgiveness that comes through Jesus Christ to those who recognize their sin and repent,” Trayhorn said in a statement. “I simply said what the Bible says. Prisoners need to hear God’s word just as much as anyone else. If people come to a Christian chapel service, we cannot hold back the gospel truth that God forgives those who repent.”

A complaint was lodged against Trayhorn four days later, and he was barred from assisting further with chapel services, being advised that he had violated prison policy and U.K. equality laws for speaking against homosexuality.

“The mere mention of homosexual behavior in the Bible verses that I quoted provoked complaint,” he outlined. “I was barred from taking part in chapel services and trouble came my way.”

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Trayhorn was advised that a disciplinary hearing would ensue.

In August of last year, he left work after the stress literally made him sick, and officially resigned in November, citing harassment for his faith. A disciplinary hearing was held a day later.

Trayhorn soon took his case to an employment tribunal, contending that he was essentially forced out of his main job as a gardener through the way he was treated for quoting Scripture on homosexuality during the chapel service.

Now, the tribunal has struck down his claim, opining that Trayhorn was not discriminated against on religious grounds “because of the way his message was received.” The court said that Trayhorn spoke in an “insensitive” way which “failed to have regard for the special nature of the congregation in the prison.”

“This case is alarming on a number of fronts,” Trayhorn said in a statement. “The Tribunal’s reasoning was based on the effect that my message, which included the bible verses, had on those who heard them. Yet those who attend chapel do so voluntarily to worship God and to learn what the Bible has to say. The congregation know that the Bible will be preached on, and therefore complaints should have been considered in light of that.”

“This decision has two very worrying consequences: Firstly, the Tribunal has effectively said that inmates will no longer be able to listen to sermons preached from the Bible which could change their behavior for the better, as they become Christians and God transforms their lives,” he outlined. “Secondly, this case is a warning shot to church leaders across the land that the ever growing political correctness will soon be hitting pulpits and if congregations do not like what they hear about sexuality, complaints will be made.”


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  • Samuel F Waddell

    The Pastor is correct. I know the verses That he quoted. This is what the western world has come to. In the middle east Christian are beheaded, in China imprisoned. In the west fired or prosecuted.

    • Michael C

      …but he was neither fired nor prosecuted.

      • bowie1

        I believe Samuel was speaking in general about getting fired or prosecuted, butin this case he resigned.

      • Samuel F Waddell

        I am glad that he wasn’t. Christians for 2000 years have believed the Scriptures to be GOD’S HOLY WORD. So should it be expected that dedicated ministers are to discard the Scriptures because many do not believe it? Just because men of God proclaim God’s Word, just as it is written, as Jesus said quite a few times himself, doesn’t mean that we are hating people. Love speaks the truth in order to lead people to Christ’s saving grace. There are many evils in society that must be address so that people will hopefully repent and be saved. If preachers of Christ’s gospel compromise with society how can they truly call themselves followers of Christ?

        • Michael C

          I don’t think anyone ever said that this guy wasn’t allowed to preach whatever he wanted.

          …but this wasn’t his church. He can say whatever he wants but he can’t expect someone else to provide him with the venue to do so.

      • Samuel F Waddell

        It is good that he wasn’t. One has to honestly ask why people would consider firing or prosecuting someone for reading what is plainly written the Bible? To fire someone or prosecute a preacher or priest for speaking the truth of Scripture would have been seen as truly an evil thing when I was younger by most in the western world. It would have only been heard of in Red China, The Soviet Union or under sharia law. In countries that oppress or use to oppress Christians. It seems now that we are giving a lot of freedom, freedom even to attack speech, to questionable lifestyles and suppressing the freedom of religion on the other hand.

    • Paige Turner

      And none of these things happened.

      You need to leave gay people alone to live their lives and stop condemning them.

      • Oboehner

        Right after they stop targeting people of faith.

        • Paige Turner

          Christians have a 70 % market share. They not being targeted rather they are just being made to obey they law. There is a difference.

          • Oboehner

            They are being targeted, the proof is in the lawsuits. To which law are you referring, constitutional law guaranteeing freedom to practice one’s religion, or the non-existent one the guarantees sexual perversion the “right” to trump the Constitution?

          • Quantz

            Yes, lawsuits are very much in order when Christian bullies try to make the laws of their churches apply to the real world. Too bad the law doesn’t work that way.

          • Paige Turner

            They are breaking the law. There is no targeting. In the USA there have been 3 cases. Hardly persecution when there are hundreds of millions of Christians.

            If you choose to do business in a place you are bound by the laws. The bakers/florists etc have broken the law. The same law applies to race. You cannot discriminate. Jesus would not discriminate.

            Your opinion about sexual perversion speaks more of your mind set than you care to acknowledge. There is no evidence that homosexuality is perversion except in your twisted mind.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Only 3? Reading what Christians posted, I thought it was more.

          • Paige Turner

            3 cases only.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            So to them 3 cases is a lot.

          • Paige Turner

            3 cases of businesses breaking the law.

            The Bible says a lot about laws and obeying them.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Well when I have to believe the Christians it where a lot of cases. If I remember correctly someone even said, dozen of cases. So I was surprised to read from you it where only 3. Isn’t there something in the bible of bearing false witness? They lied, that is a sin right?

          • Paige Turner

            3 cases. All broke anti discrimination laws.

            So you support criminals?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Uhm, did I anywhere in my comments stated I do?

          • Paige Turner

            You support the 3 cases of discrimination made by these people which is illegal activity therefore you support criminals.

            So you support criminals and their criminal activity?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            I don’t know how you read in my comments that I support criminal activity, but no I don’t.

          • Paige Turner

            You support the activities of criminals IE; those who have broken the law.

            These people discriminated against others and paid the price and you support this.

            Or dont you?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Okay, can”t you read or what? What did I stated in my previous comment. No I DON’T support the activities of criminals. I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that I would support it.

          • Paige Turner

            You support the actions of this pastor who is a criminal as well as those who have been found guilty of discrimination ergo you support the activities of criminals.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            So you can’t point out in which comment I stated I support this pastor? Got it! And why would I support any pastor, priest, religion that is a homophobe? don’t make accusations that aren’t true.

          • Paige Turner

            So you don’t support the Pastor or those that denied service to Gay couples?

            You are Pro Gay then?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Finally, you got it!

          • Paige Turner

            Then why didn’t you just say that?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            I don’t know how you read in my comments that I support criminal activity, but no I don’t.

            Okay, can”t you read or what? What did I stated in my previous comment. No I DON’T support the activities of criminals. I’m not sure how you came to the conclusion that I would support it.

            Uhm, I did.

          • Paige Turner

            If I cant read, how am I responding to you?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Well I stated twice that I don’t support criminal activity and you still accused me of supporting what that pastor did.

          • Paige Turner

            That doesn’t answer the question

          • Paige Turner

            So you support criminal activities?

          • Oboehner

            3 cases? Where do you get your “facts” Mad Magazine?

          • Paige Turner

            There are 3 cases.

            Please show me all the others that you think have happened.

            Here are the 3 people/businesses who have broken anti discrimination laws

            Sweetcakes by Melissa
            Baronelle Stutzman
            Kim Davis (depending on your definition)

          • Oboehner

            Masterpiece Cakeshop one you missed, perhaps it was covered by the “fold in”.

          • rubellapox2

            How do gay people just existing target your religion? All those people who got sued where sued on the basis of laws which were already on the books since the 1960’s… If a person own a business he or she can not discriminate, period…. You christians are so unlike Christ….

      • Samuel F Waddell

        A man of God must speak God’s Word as it is written, a kindly as possible, but also when it goes contrary to way some people are living. 2 Timothy 4:1-3 “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,…” As the Apostle Peter told the Pharisees: Acts 4:19 But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,”

        • Paige Turner

          You’ve missed the point. This guy wasn’t at his church. He was “out of bounds” which is the problem here. He was also not fired or persecuted.

          This is a non issue. Nothing happened except he over reached.

        • Paige Turner

          Thats all great and he is allowed to do that in his Church.

          He wasn’t in his Church. Thats they problem.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            JESUS commanded His disciples: Mark 16:15 He said to them, ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The real church is not a building but people who are born again and redeemed. So we must go out and help others to come to Christ as well. But of course many reject the truth and hate those who are trying to help them. Jesus also promised us that we would be persecuted.

          • Paige Turner

            We have freedom of and freedom from religion as do most modern countries including the UK.

            What Jesus said is irrelevant to those who either don’t believe or follow. Your opinions need to stay where they belong.

            How would you react if this was a Muslim Cleric pulling this stunt?

          • Samuel F Waddell

            THE GLORY OF THE LORD ALMIGHTY And the COMING DAY OF JUDGEMNT!

            Ezekiel 1:26-28New International Version

            26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.

            This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell face down, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

            Comments: We on earth cannot comprehend the Greatness, the Holiness, Majesty, or the Power of The One True and Eternal God. He is beyond our comprehension! We can only see what He has created around us and many today do not even acknowledge that. We can, however, know Him in our hearts by the forgiveness of the blood of Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit! But one thing is sure, we are mere men and it is not about us but about HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE OF HEAVEN! Every prophet or Apostle who saw the presence of the Lord or the Glorified CHRIST fell on their faces, immediately, in fear and awe!

            We must never forget, in a world that curses and mock God and Christ, by word and deed, that we all must stand, one day, before the Ancient of Days and give an account of our lives! 2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” This is written to believers and is in the New Testament. So we should not think that we can cruse casually through life, living in sin, and forgetting God! As is stated in HEBREWS 9: 27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:” We must all live our lives close to CHRIST, walking in the light, and prepared to meet our GOD! We can only approach Him through the Blood of CHRIST and through faith in what He has done for us but we will all, most certainly, stand before Him on the great day of Judgment.

          • Paige Turner

            Using capitals makes it look like you are shouting. This doesn’t help your argument, rather it means that you are coming across as very aggressive, angry and agitated.

            We have freedom of and freedom from religion.

            You did not address the question so I will ask it again;

            How would you react if this was a Muslim cleric pulling this stunt?

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Yes I answered you. You stated that what JESUS said is irrelevant to those who don’t believe. This is un-true. A persons’ unbelief in Christ cannot effect the fact that JESUS CHRIST is Lord of heaven and earth and is the Eternal God, is coming again and will judge the living and dead and is the only Savior of mankind. We are mere men, lost or saved according to our faith. Why would you think that what you or someone else thinks can effect God? As for the second question. We both know that it would not happen to a Muslim unless he is calling for violence. But, even though I obviously do not believe in Islam, they have freedom of religion as long as they remain peaceful. But of course that is the problem is it not.

          • Paige Turner

            The question was very simple;

            “How would you react if this was a Muslim Cleric pulling this stunt?”

            Your answer in the last sentence or two was something about calling for violence which is outrageous. Most Muslims are peaceful people. Then you say Muslims only have freedom of religion if they remain peaceful which is hypocritical.

            You have not answered the simple question, rather you have written two unhinged rants with capital letters shouting at me.

            It seems that only Christians are allowed freedom of religion in your theocratical world view. This is perhaps why there are fewer and fewer Christians and “religiously unaffiliated” has grown exponentially in recent years.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            It seemed clear that I answered last time. There is freedom of religion for all unless they become violent. When a person murders someone in the name of their religion then they have lost their freedom, at that point. Everyone should understand this. If they don’t then I would suspect them. This should go for all religions. Of course Christ never told anyone to go kill people in the name of God but Mohammed did. It is in the Koran. If people don’t kill others then they should have freedom of religion. We cannot give a murderer freedom to practice. Of course you must know that in Muslim lands if a person converts to the Christian faith they can be killed by law.

          • Paige Turner

            Another rant. I asked a simple question which I will pose to you again.

            How would you react if this was a Muslim Cleric pulling this stunt?

          • Samuel F Waddell

            I answered you. It would be the same for a Muslim as a Christian though the two faiths are in contradiction. They both have freedom to speak. And no one pulled a stunt, the minister spoke God’s Word. Stop your mockery or God’s Word! You will give an account of it on Judgment day! You better humble yourself and repent. These are the verses he spoke: 1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
            Foolish people mock God’s Word. You will do what you want until judgment catches up with you so why should I waist my time with you. Go on in your folly. This is my last answer to you.

          • Paige Turner

            Wow. You’re really out there aren’t you?

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Look JESUS loves you and hung on the cross, and rose again, for you and wants you in Heaven. It is your choice from here on. All that call on the name of the Lord shall be saved ( Romans 10:13). You must pray with a sincere and repentant heart until you know that He has saved you. He saved me so I know that He will you as well if you will. I leave you here. There is really no more that I can say. I hope that you will be in heaven.

          • Paige Turner

            Your posts are just rants and probably cut and pasted from a library of these things.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            We also know that the unbelievers in our societies will not be so fast to come against a Muslim because of their teaching of holy war and what happens with their radicals. They are afraid to. The Christian is, however, a better target since Christ taught us to be peaceful, love our neighbor and forgive as individual believers. Though some have abused this and done violence in His name. The government is expected, though, to defend it’s people. So this has been a point of disagreement among believers for centuries. This rest I have already stated. So I will leave you here. I have no more to write.

          • Paige Turner

            That makes no sense what so ever. You are seriously unhinged.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Islam is not the same as Judaism and Christianity. Christ is the fulfillment of Judaism. He is their Messiah and the Savior of the gentiles. Islam came 600 years after Christ and denied that Christ was and is the Only Begotten Son of God and only Savior of mankind. Which is the core of the Christian faith. Islam demotes Jesus to only a prophet. Though they do take from the Bible, written much earlier, the fact that Christ was sinless and born of a Virgin, did many miracle, is God’s Word and will come again a second time. They deny, however the most important facts that CHRIST died for our sins and rose agin the third day. So Islam is really the largest cult in the world. Though it is called a religion. Judaism predicted Christ’s coming in hundreds of prophesies. You can study them yourself. His birth, where He would be born, His miracles and the way He died all predicted hundreds of years before in the Old Testament. But their leaders were corrupt, at that time and rejected CHRIST.

          • Paige Turner

            Thanks for the rant however, as usual this does not answer the question.

          • fatnima

            Watch the following great Christian preachers on You Tube:
            following on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Televangelists

  • The Last Trump

    When reading the scriptures, at a chapel service, to CONVICTS, who voluntarily choose to attend, is considered wrongdoing (!?) you know you’ve lost your way.
    Nice knowing you, UK. R.I.P.

    • bowie1

      I was once with a choir as a young fellow at an institution in Millbrook, Ontario where they had a chaplain who was an associate with our church, and I noticed a few male prisoners who I mistook for being women in the prison “congregation”, which my mother explained to me that they did this with hormones to enlarge their breasts. At that time it was still a felony to engage in unnatural relations but being in jail already it would’ve been not much point to convict them of a crime.

  • Yvonne Celeste Lee

    Evil on steroids.

    • Carlton Taylor

      APPEAL TO THE MUSLIMS OF THE WORLD

      You know that God gave the land of Israel to the ‘Religion of Abraham the
      True’.

      You know that God requires that you live by this religion in the Land.

      Your holy Quran commands you to convert yourselves to the Religion of Abraham
      the True if you want to live in the Land of Israel.

      002.135 They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To
      salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! I would rather be of the Religion of
      Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God.”

      Enjoy the fruits of Israel and join the ranks of the ‘Religion of Abraham the
      True’ today!

  • Unionville

    More fascism from the totalitarian,illiberal left. It’s aims are universal and the fact that it has a significant toehold in this country is an indicator that the cancer is spreading. It is amazing that what has been a prime accelerant to our loss of freedom is the LGBT&Q folks with their litany of sexual and identity disorders. Their Utopia is nothing more than a dystopian society with government attempting to control our thoughts and actions by controlling our speech. The truly sad thing is that it can be stopped in this country. The number of people who are appalled by these types of things are legion in comparison to those who prefer them.. Yet we sit on our duffs rather than take to the streets. That leaves the street open to purveyors of irrational leftism who are bent on chaos and the destruction of anything remotely resembling common sense and traditionality.

    • Quantz

      For heaven’s sake, when are radicalized Christians going to comprehend that there is a percentage of the population who are, through no fault of their own, homosexuals, that they can’t change that fact? Homosexuality isn’t what you do, it’s what you are, and no amount of prayer or repenting is going to change that. Stop using scripture to beat these people up, let them live their lives the only way they can.

      • Unionville

        I never mentioned Christianity in my post at all. But your response is an example of what I am speaking about. You are demonizing Christian belief that homosexuality is sinful as being some sort of radical thought. Which is absurd. Christianity has always held this belief. It is the push to normalize homosexuality and gender disorders that is radical. It’s why the thought police are necessary. Soon no one, whether they are religious or not, will be able to state the obvious. That men and women are the ones who are designed to be together sexually and all other sexual combinations are a perversion of that.

        There are a lot of people with disorders in this world. I believe they should be able “to live their lives” if they are happy with their particular disorder. Whatever it is. But we are forcing conformity to the new “normal” by designating those who believe in common sense and traditionality as engaging in hate speech. The LGBT&Q agenda is a lie. It is not about expanding freedom. It is about curtailing it.

        • Paige Turner

          There is no push to normalise homosexuality. Its already normal.

          What is not normal is to demonise people for it which is what you are doing. To call gay people disordered is offensive and pious. Shame on you.

          • Brad F

            Telling the truth is a good thing. Homosexuality is abnormal and extremely unhealthy. The data on disease, alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, suicide, and domestic abuse do not lie. People who work in emergency rooms know what sort of lives these people lead.

          • Paige Turner

            You are not telling the truth at all. You are misrepresenting. Homosexuality exists in hundreds of animal species however bigotry and homophobia exist in only one.

            The data you refer to is a result of people such as you demonising gay people. Is it any wonder that gay people are driven to depression and suicide when you say things like “Its abnormal and extremely unhealthily”. You need to take responsibility for your evil words and their impact on others.

            Your reference to emergency rooms is baseless and offensive just like the rest of your post.

          • Brad F

            Sorry you find facts “offensive.” You gals don’t want the truth to get out.

          • Paige Turner

            I find you and your opinions offensive. Demonising a minority is reprehensible and leads to the very things that you mentioned in your original post. There is no conspiracy unless you are one of those tin foil hat wearing loons.

          • Paige Turner

            I find your lies offensive

          • Diaris

            Why do you hang out on Christian blogs if you read things that upset you? There’s plenty of homosexual blogs where everyone thinks just alike. Life is short, spend it with people who are just like you.

          • Paige Turner

            Because you need to learn that the things that you say are harmful and using the bible as a defence is reprehensible.

            I have witnessed first hand what happens to people when they are bombarded with negative messages about who they are told that it is “love”. It drives them to depression and suicide.

            The truly Christian thing to to would be to acknowledge this and start loving them properly and not abusing them in the name of love and religion.

          • Diaris

            You’re accomplishing just the opposite, you will not change any Christian’s mind, we don’t cave in to whining. All your posts do is send the clear message that homosexuals are bored, unhappy, and malicious. The more you post, the more you drive home that message.

            I certainly would not waste my valuable time lurking around some homosexual blog. Life is too short to waste it on such nonsense.

            Keep posting, it does serve a useful purpose for all the Christians who read these threads. We see what kind of lives gays really lead – internet trolling.

          • Paige Turner

            Your religion is based on hate, bigotry and ignorance which hurts other people and it needs to be called out. Your hypocrisy is easily destroyed as are the fairy tales that you believe.

            You have blood on your hands for your reprehensible behaviour towards minorities.

          • Diaris

            No, no blood on my hands. Not one drop. Zip. I have never harmed anyone. I have never infected another human being with AIDS or other incurable disease. I value other people’s lives. Homosexual men do not value other people’s lives. They have destroyed many thousands of lives and felt no guilt or shame about it. Three decades of infecting their own kind, and you don’t care about that. Instead, when someone utters an opinion you don’t like, you come up with “You have blood on your hands.” Gay men have been killing each other for years. Christians are not your problem. Gay men are your destroyers. People who destroy each others lives as you do are in no position to preach to people like me who do not infect others with diseases.

          • Paige Turner

            What appalling things to say about other humans. Shame on you.

            Nothing in your post is true or accurate.

            Absolutely disgraceful.

          • Mark0H

            Whiny baby. You’re not even a man.

          • Paige Turner

            Shameful behaviour on your part. You have blood on your hands for this kind of thing.

          • Guest

            and there are plenty of Christians that think people can accept the New Covenant just fine regardless of the ‘male or female’ of their spouse.

          • Guest

            and since Christians don’t stereotype (ref: story of the good Samaritan’) it wouldn’t matter if 99 out of 100 of a group did something or had some quality in regard to the individual who didn’t to a practicing Christian.

          • rubellapox2

            No being a bully is wrong and it affects everyone…. Trying to make gay people feel bad about themselves is evil, not truth…

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            So I’ll take it you work in a emergency room?

          • Unionville

            Male and female are designed to be together sexually. Same sex coupling is in no way normal.

            Demonizing is what is happening to those who have the audacity to state what I have just stated.

          • Paige Turner

            Homosexuality exists in hundreds of animal species. Its a totally normal.
            Your opinion is demeaning, defensive and shameful and you should probably keep it to yourself.

            You are not being demonised. You are being held to account and required to behave as a civilised and mature human being who isn’t threatened by people who are different to you and cause you no harm.

          • Unionville

            Homosexuality OCCURS in nature. It is not normal. It is not the standard. Heterosexuality is normal in nature. It is the standard. It is how nature reproduces.

            It seems very clear that you feel anything that goes against what YOU believe needs to be suppressed. People who think like you are the real threat to freedom. This article, which speaks of the experience of this UK prison worker. is a representation of the thought police in action. Orwell saw it coming. That’s why he wrote 1984. “The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” And of course the more the thought police will try to shut them up. Like telling them to “probably keep it to (them)selves.” How tolerant of you.

          • Paige Turner

            Thanks for your uninformed unscientific opinion.

            Homosexuality has been proven to be a normal part of human sexuality. There is no threat to anyone rather your demonisation hurts gay people. Saying that a minority group is abnormal is reprehensible and ignorant. Its is this arrogant and pious attitude which drives gay people to depression and suicide. You have blood on your hands.

          • Unionville

            There is nothing “uninformed” or “unscientific” in what I said. Heterosexuality is what is considered normal, even in the animal kingdom. It is only those with a political agenda who are trying to change an aberration into something that is not disordered. Those with a dystopian mind set have not yet successfully altered the definition of normal yet. I’m sure they are working on it for the future. So be of good cheer.

            Your second paragraph just exhibits more of what I have been talking about. It is necessary to suppress views even if they are demonstrably true for the “good” of mankind. It is an infantilization of society. It MUST be the fact that someone calls homosexuality disordered that causes depression, higher rates of suicide, alcoholism and drug use rather than the homosexual lifestyle itself that tends to cause these problems. The leftist LGBT&Q agenda is a brilliant tool to usher in the Utopian dystopia. I think we’re done now. I’m sure any response that you could possibly give could easily be answered by any of my other posts.

          • Paige Turner

            Your argument is post hoc ergo propter hoc.

            Gay people suffer high rates of depression and suicide because of people like you who demonise them not because they are gay. Being gay is normal, demonising them is not. Its is reprehensible and disgraceful behaviour and very Un-Christian.

        • Quantz

          It wasn’t necessary for you to mention Christianity, because no one BUT Christians have the view you have. The belief that homosexuality is sinful IS a radical thought in this day and age when we know so much more about how human sexuality works. It is only Christians who fight the mental health and psychologists’ expert views on the matter these days. There has never been a homosexual who has prayed to have his/her sexuality altered which has resulted in it being changed. Ex-gay associations have been proven fraudulent, and the biggest known one, Exodus International, closed their doors, apologized and admitted to fraud.

          Your stone age view that homosexuality is a disorder is shocking and appalling in this day and age, and there is no excuse for it.

          • Unionville

            Once again you provide a further example of what I wrote in both of my posts. You demonize Christians as radical for holding a traditional view of male/female sexuality which has been shared by the religious and NON RELIGIOUS alike and continues to be shared. It is necessary to say that it is “radical” so that it can be declared a danger so its suppression will seem necessary. The voice of leftists and their politically driven LGBT&Q agenda is loud indeed. They have been able to bully and intimidate many in the mental health field. But not all of them.

            The rest of yur post about there being no homosexuals who have changed is pure bunk. Regardless of whether Exodus has closed its doors or not. There are too many homosexuals who have changed and have spoken out about their change.

            You did not refute my “radical” “stone age” stance that men and women are the ones who are designed to be together sexually. The entire concept of homosexuality as a disorder and a perversion of heterosexuality hinges upon it.

          • Quantz

            “You demonize Christians as radical for holding a traditional view of male/female sexuality”

            Yes, I do, don’t I? Maybe that’s because your views are outdated and downright incorrect. It’s time you admitted the Bible can be incorrect about some things. We know FAR more about human sexuality now than we did when the Bible was written. And you know what, it IS possible to be a Christian and allow homosexuals to fall in love – I can list many Christian denominations who do NOT fight science on the issue.

            No. No homosexuals have changed their sexuality. It is impossible. And homosexuality hasn’t been called a disorder or perversion in decades and decades.

          • Unionville

            It is anatomy that declares homosexuality a perversion. The dystopian society requires the corruption of knowledge. It requires the corruption of language and the true meaning of words. Since currently these things cannot be changed or deleted from the lexicon on a large scale, like the Orwellian Ministry of Truth did in the book 1984, then their meaning must be questioned. Statements such as “your views are outdated and downright incorrect” are a good example of this. Or “…do not fight the science on the issue”, when it is you who are disregarding science. But reality is what it is. That is why the thought police are required. It is necessary to ensure that reality and truth doesn’t rear its head or it endangers the new narrative the state is establishing. Truth is a threat to its ever growing power.

            The bible was written at a time when many nations were awash in abject debauchery. Sexual perversions and attractions were rampant within their borders. We are actually devolving back to biblical times. Not learning more about human sexuality.

            Simply stating that homosexuals who have changed their sexuality is “impossible” is not a convincing argument, when they beg to differ and have been quite vocal about it.

          • rubellapox2

            So name some…name some of these “ex gays”..

          • Unionville

            You have a computer. Google it.

          • rubellapox2

            No, you made the assertion…some names please, otherwise you’re just another make crap up christian…isn’t bearing false witness against one of your Ten Commandments?

          • Unionville

            I did make the assertion and your response is a cop out. You already know they’re there. Everybody does. The only one who bears false witness, is you and others like you who believe anyone who has changed and speaks about it must surely be lying. You take on the role of a god by pretending you can see inside the mind of those who have changed. We’re done now. Bye Bye!

          • rubellapox2

            Sweetie you made an assertion and you never backed it up with any facts…I’d say you’re the one copping out…and no I don’t read minds, but when the largest ex gay orgs shut down and the leaders of said org say that their therapies don’t work, that sexual orientations can not be changed, I tend to believe them…after all, they’re allegedly pros at changing sexual orientation…

          • hytre64

            Muslims don’t seem to be very accepting of Homosexuals. In fact in countries with Sharia Law, homosexual conduct carries the death penalty. Not very accepting of them is it?

            Jews also understand that God is against Homosexual Conduct. Who do you think studies Leviticus more – a Jewish Scholar or a Christian?

      • rubellapox2

        Amen brother..

  • Becky

    “The court said that Trayhorn spoke in an “insensitive” way which “failed to have regard for the special nature of the congregation in the prison.”

    You dare say this after what they did to innocent children and other innocent victims. They don’t need soft prison psychobabble mingled with political correctness! The fact that prisons for sex offenders have greatly increased should be evident that they need God. They need to hear the truth about their lascivious sins…they need to repent. Else these convicted sex offenders will never change. Or, is that the goal? Are they pulling the equality card for the sex offenders that committed pederasty?? I don’t doubt it. There are many insidious people currently in power that want to abolish the age of consent and have no issues against child pornography. Is their goal to show society that these sex offenders (housed in soft prisons) cannot change because they were “born that way” and they’re being unjustly punished? I don’t doubt it.

    The last days will be like Sodom and Gomorrah, even the youngest would partake in “consensual sex” with adults (Genesis 19:4-11). Before you know it, perverted adults will have the right to engage sexually with children and if you oppose it you’ll be accused of discrimination.

    • Paige Turner

      Conflating sex offenders with homosexuals is a false equivalency and terribly convenient for your covert agenda.

      • Becky

        Oh, but it wasn’t me that combined them…

        “A complaint was lodged against Trayhorn four days later, and he was barred from assisting further with chapel services, being advised that he had violated prison policy and U.K. equality laws for speaking against homosexuality.”

        Btw, I have no agenda. It’s no secret that the UK has an enormous problem with pederasty, which is why they themselves have made the combination.

        • Guest

          What? UK prisons don’t have the kind of sanctioned rape policies of many of the state run prisons have here in the US.

          Where did you get that idea? And pedastry? There aren’t any children in prison to begin with.

        • Paige Turner

          You do indeed have an agenda

      • Oboehner

        The root is the same, attempting to differentiate is a fallacy and terribly convenient for your covert agenda.

        • Guest

          No accurate differentiation is against your covert agenda. Adults being attracted to other adults, men and women is far more similar than different no matter the adult’s sex.

          • Oboehner

            Sex is for procreation, natural law backs that up, anything else is just a perversion of that law, including same sex, bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, and so on.

          • Guest

            Actually natural law says that sex is for many things including, occasionally, procreate by some people. People have sex dozens, even hundreds of times other than for procreation, many people have it with no chance of procreation at all.

            You have a right to your beliefs, but everyone else has a right to not share them, even in the UK and prisoners have a right to not be judged by a religious yardstick they do not share.

            Just like chaplains in the military there can be no denigration of people for civil qualities legally protected. This was inappropriate just as would be having someone spout their aryan church views, a christian science telling them they should refuse health care, or any other religious belief that excluded part of their captive audience for protected reasons.

            The man wasn’t fired he was just no longer allowed to volunteer for a job that wasn’t his to begin with and quit his actual job of his own volition.

          • Oboehner

            Sad when quoting from the basis of Christianity is forbidden in a church setting.

          • Guest

            The basis of Christianity is love and forgiveness. And when the audience isn’t wards of the state they can say whatever they want. He would have been just as complained against if he said all those who weren’t Christian are condemned to hell. Even if he believes it, that kind of preaching isn’t allowed in captive audience situations.

          • Oboehner

            Spoken like a true non-believer, you forgot repentance in your flawed analysis.
            “just as complained against” Grammar anyone? Sure who wants scripture quoted in a church setting, instead we must adhere to the fleeting feel-good attitudes of a decadent society.

          • Guest

            Spoken like a Christian you mean, part of love is willingness to repent. Pride is the first sin, and like Lucifer thinking you know better than God or others, grammar or believer-status as the illustration, your response still shows your error.

            And if he feels the need to condemn he can volunteer at a church where the people aren’t under government guardianship.

          • Oboehner

            Since you are so much holier than I and show love and forgiveness, where do you fit with pedophiles, love and forgiveness with no thinking you know better than God or others?
            BTW, He didn’t condemn, the word of God does – he just pointed that out.

          • Guest

            You don’t love and forgive pedophiles? murderers? hypocrites? theives? Oath-breakers? Adulterers? Fornicators? As a Christian I am mandated to do so, it’s easy to forgive only those you like – no virtue required there.

            And since no man knows the limits of God’s Grace there is a world of difference with warning what might happen and saying what will happen.

            As James 2:13 says
            for judgment [will be] without mercy to him that has shewn no mercy. Mercy glories over judgment.

            a lesson many calling themselves Christian have missed.

          • Oboehner

            With forgiveness comes repentance.

          • Guest

            Sometimes, but that isn’t my job to require of them, I forgive them and love them anyway, repentance is their responsibility just as it is for me and my sins.

          • Oboehner

            It isn’t my job celebrate everything in the name of forgiveness.

          • Guest

            But there is no law against being joyous.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Really very strange concept, especially when in marriage birth control is practised. Are you saying intercourse that between a male and female is fornication in those circumstances?

          • Oboehner

            Now you’re comparing natural law to emotions, the point was that only heterosexual sex is by birth as a natural way for procreation. Any other twisting (as you appear to have a propensity for) is irrelevant.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            You said sex is for procreation. End of story. If you do not believe it is for procreation then you argument falls down. PS How I am twisting what you said”

            Oboehner

            Guest

            12 hours ago

            Sex is for procreation, natural law backs that up, anything else is
            just a perversion of that law, including same sex, bestiality,
            necrophilia, pedophilia, and so on.

            Try and wriggle out of that one. Have ever heard the term self righteous hypocrite or inveterate liar?

          • Oboehner

            Have you ever heard the term substance less ad hominem?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            I understand the term ad hominem, do you? When you did not defend or could not defend your position and one was left wondering if you were applying a double standard of hypocrisy to one group of people and another. When I copied and posted what you said after accusing me of twisting, which was an ad hominen, baseless of course, because I posted what you have written, does not the term inveterate liar suit?

          • Oboehner

            My position is just fine. Pleasure is a byproduct.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            So it took you 2 days to answer. Of course it was not an answer at all.

          • Oboehner

            I guess you’re just not that high on my priority list.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Well don’t bother next time. You really had nothing to say.

          • Oboehner

            That you understood anyhow.

          • Paige Turner

            He is a terrible liar. He tried the same trick on me. When challenged he usually lies or runs away.

          • John N

            ‘Natural law’? Now where did you invent this fable again, Oboehner?

            Who wrote this law and where can I read about it? And where does this law of yours states ‘sex is for procreation only’? What do I get for not abiding that law, like for having sex just for pleasure?

            So many questions, so few good answers. Sounds like religion to me.

          • Oboehner

            Rub those brain cells a little harder, I’m sure you’ll figure it out.

          • John N

            Envying my brain cells, Oboehner?

            Well, you decided to give them up when becoming religious, I’m afraid it is too late to change your mind now.

          • Oboehner

            You said you were religious as well…

          • John N

            I was. But I grew up and got over it.

          • Oboehner

            No evolution for you then? Great.

          • John N

            For once you are correct. I do not evolve. Individual organisms do not evolve.

            Populations do.

            Must be a lucky guess, knowing you.

          • Oboehner

            Populations? I have never witnessed this, have photos or do I have to take it on faith?

          • Quantz

            And no pleasure must be derived from it whatsoever because Jesus.

          • Paige Turner

            So you only have sex for procreation? Are you that much of a puritan?

          • Oboehner

            Did I say that? Or are you trying to twist the facts again to suit your agenda?

          • Paige Turner

            Yes you did say that. Your post above says that specifically. Here is the quote.

            “Sex is for procreation, natural law backs that up, anything else is just a perversion of that law, including same sex, bestiality, necrophilia, pedophilia, and so on.”

            So I ask again. Do you only have sex for procreation?

          • Oboehner

            Yup.

          • Paige Turner

            Liar

          • Oboehner

            Prove that, or keep your fabricated crap to yourself.

          • Paige Turner

            Nice try. The fact that your only response is an outright lie is proof enough.

            You ran out of cogent, intelligent arguments a while ago.

          • Oboehner

            To your husband/wife/life partner/significant other/dog/cat as well

          • Paige Turner

            Here we go again Oboehner with the cut and paste. You’ve clearly run out things to respond with. None of them were cogent any way so its not far to go.

          • Oboehner

            Bother you? If so good.

          • Paige Turner

            Oh, you’re back. It took you 5 days to come up with that.

            Good one!

          • Oboehner

            You just aren’t that high on the priority list.

          • Paige Turner

            I just found your priority list;

            1) Iron White hood and robes
            2) Troll Websites
            3) Make extremist comments that make no sense
            4) Sulk
            5) Come up with something to say in response to being slapped down

            Thats about 5 days work for you isn’t it?

          • Oboehner

            And yours would be:
            1) Make stuff up
            2)make stuff up
            5) make stuff up
            etc.

          • Paige Turner

            Heres a hint. When its just one thing, you don’t have to repeat it. Its redundant otherwise much like your “arguments” 🙂

          • Oboehner

            When it is done redundantly…

          • Paige Turner

            You are redundant.

        • Paige Turner

          What an ignorant and offensive comment.

          What root?

          • Oboehner

            Only to the ignorant and offensive.

          • Paige Turner

            Great come back genius.

      • Sheri

        Wrong.

        • Paige Turner

          So every homosexual is a sex offender?

          That is completely wrong but by all mean explain.

  • b.a. freeman

    so far, the u.s. has freedom of speech, but the left is striving mightily to override it. there are hate-speech laws being put in place in many jurisdictions, and those who don’t wish to spend all that they own (and then some) on court costs will soon be forced to shut up in spite of the first amendment. just ask mark steyn. they sued him in canada, and now they’re suing him in the u.s.

    if they can’t ooze into complete control using hate speech laws, the left has a fall-back in the form of chaos because of islam being introduced into society. eurabia is very close to being ready for their move now; once enough chaos (in the eyes of the left) has been introduced into society, the left can seize total control. they’ll tell us that if we had just shut up and let the smart people run things, they wouldn’t have had to seize control.

    • Michael C

      there are hate-speech laws being put in place in many jurisdictions,…

      Which jurisdictions? citation needed

  • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

    Babies don’t form in men’s behinds.

    ^ You really don’t need a Bible verse to condemn homosexual practice; nature does an adequate job on its own.

    If mixing blood, sperm, and fecal matter ever creates anything other than shame and an exceeding high risk for fatal diseases such as AIDS, let me know.

    • Paige Turner

      Good grief. The places where you mind goes is truly alarming.

      What a truly awful thing to say about another human being given that so many human beings have the kind of sex that you are referring to not just gay people.

      You also need to update your knowledge about HIV and AIDS as medical advances mean now that HIV is a manageable condition and is preventable with medicines readily available. People with HIV can live as long as those without the virus as AIDS does not develop like it used to.

      Please try some compassion for your fellow humans.

      • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

        What I posted was compassion, in sharing the frank truth. The male sexual organ has no business being shoved into a body cavity that expels bacteria infested fecal matter.

        Nothing I posted above was a lie. It’s all accurate.

        With that said, seeing as you’re one of the resident trolls in this infrequently moderated territory, I’m not going to exchange with you further.

        Have a good one.

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          You did not post that in compassion. You know about PrEP and truvada, You know the biblical translations as well and still you persist in presenting a false message to world. As I have said before: the exclusion and alienation, the subterfuge and lies you present are one of reasons why young gays kill themselves. Keep it up AIC, you have blood on your hands. What gall!!!! You call someone a troll and yet you are the biggest one under the bridge.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Actually, he has posted truth, eg MATT.4:17 = “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
            …….IOW, if u don’t repent, AIDS, rectal cancer, STDs, etc n hell is at hand.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Really,you are going to post that verse. Let’s post some of Matthew.

            Matthew 23:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
            15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one [a]proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of [b]hell as yourselves
            Well friend if you have safer sex, get immunised against HEP B, HPV take Truvada you won’t get any of those diseases. Using a condom even better until you know the status of your partner.

        • Paige Turner

          What you posted was abuse and you have done it again. Shame on you. There is no compassion in saying awful things about a minority. Your reference to the sexual activities of gay Men applies also to heterosexual couples as well. By virtue of numbers, straight couples do that a lot more than Gay people.

          Degrading loving couples relationships the way you have is appalling and frankly alarming.

        • Larry Bond

          With reference to Patrick Van Der Ven’s reply to this comment and much of what he says to people on the Internet, if you wish to make a formal complaint about his remarks I will support you.

          • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

            I appreciate your support Larry. His remarks don’t bother me too much as I pity him, more than anything.

            The personal attacks that he uses toward me is really an outward manifestation of the anger, bitterness, and hurt thriving in his own soul. Using religion to cover it doesn’t help any (as it’s the Relationship that counts).

          • Larry Bond

            That’s a very kind way to look at it — I’ll let it go. Something similar did cross my mind when I saw the extreme sensitivity of his reactions: I could have handled things with him better.

    • Guest

      You do realize that the vast majority of people that engage in the activity that haunts your dreams are men with women, right? You do know that the majority of gay men and (of course) lesbians don’t engage in this activity, right?

      They don’t form in anyone’s behind, but that’s not the issue is it?

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      They do not come out of women’s behind’s either, but anal sex between a male and female is not condemned at all the bible.

      Actually, HIV does not discriminate between sexuality. In Africa there are 24 million people with HIV which is passed on through heterosexual behaviour. Penile/ vaginal sex.

      HIV transmission is decelerating in the West as a lot of sexually promiscuous males are taking PrEP.

    • Asemodevs

      They don’t create babies, they create lethal STDs. Homosexuality is a death cult. Heterosexuality creates new human life,
      homosexuality destroys human life.

    • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

      Also, rectal cancer from anal sex or sodomy.

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        That is caused by HPV virus that causes cervical cancer in women which is passed on through heterosexual sex. You present a good argument why both men and women should be vaccinated against HPV.

        • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

          No, I presented a good argument against anal sex, oral sex, gay sex n other sexual immorality.
          Can u vaccinate against HIV.?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            No but you take PrEP if you have had unsafe sex within 72 and this stops infection. Promiscuous gay men are now on PrEP and not using condoms which is seeing a rise in Syphilis and gonorrhoea. You can vaccinate against HPV and that has seen a massive decline in cervical cancer.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            It’s much cheaper n healthier 4 u to repent n stop engaging in anal sex or gay sex, ie expensive PrEP drugs n their many adverse side effects, esp over the long term.
            ……. God had created Adam n Eve to live without taking any drugs by not sinning or doing evil or breaking His Law. He did not create Adam n Steve to live in sin/gay-sex n on PrEP drugs, which actually, will not stop HIV n AIDS.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            PrEP does halt HIV. You need to on the regimen for 30 days before you stop using protection.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Glad I am not you partner. Even if they were straight they would have the most boring sex life ever. They would be justified in committing adultery.

          • Amy

            Any partner of yours would have numerous STDs.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Love it when the religious right shine a candle on their own hypocrisy and unchristian behaviour.

    • Robert

      Well we all know you learnt about the birds and the bees from one of your intimate ‘bible study’ sessions with Pastor Ted Haggard.

  • Reason2012

    So they don’t want a Christian worker in a Chapel talking about Christianity so that all many have eternal life, but instead they want to hear lies?

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”
    Isaiah 5:20-21

    “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
    2 Timothy 4:1-4

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      Reason tell me how is your Koine Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic? The problem with the verses of Paul is the Greek malakos has been
      falsely translated to homosexual. When in actuality it should read as
      weak and soft. Often it means weak willed. if we apply malakos
      universally in the NT we will have absurd readings of the NT . “The
      fabric was expensive and homosexual”. Where malakos does deal with same
      sex behaviour it is with pederasty which is form of paedophilia. For
      example a slave owner having sex with a young boy which equates to rape.
      Not until 1946 was word translated as homosexual at all, but in
      Lutheran bibles it was translated as masturbators. When read
      arsenkoites which means as was read to mean during the 1st century AD as
      a form of cultic male prostitution we see Paul is not condemning same
      sex consensual same sex behaviour rather the abusive form of sex of the
      Greco-Roman world at the time. See contemporaries of Paul such as
      Philo and their use of the word as well. Philo directly attributes it
      to qadesh the Hebrew for cultic temple prostitution.

      Oh and by the way Paul referred to you directly in Timothy Reason2012

      1 Timothy 4:2-3New International Version (NIV)
      2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

      • AndrewDowling

        Your opinion is worthless. A homosexual is obviously biased in his own favor. You do not post truth, you post propaganda for your own side. A homosexual’s opinions on the Bible and ethics are of no value at all.

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          How about you refute me with some serious academia or stop posting calumnies?

      • Reason2012

        Adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic, but the product of indoctrination, confusion, mental instability and/or abuse.

        Homosexual behavior is most literally pointed out as a sin (Greek word arsenokoitēs, which means sodomite), and God has not changed on that regard. But if a person has those inclinations but does not act upon them, does not dwell in lust upon others, but is instead struggling against them to avoid them, then it’s not a sin. It’s just like sinful inclinations of any kind: it’s acting upon it when it becomes a sin.

        And this is what God says about sin and specifically the behavior of homosexuality:

        Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

        1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [s odomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

        1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

        Jude 1:7 ”Even as_Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

        Luke 17:29 ”[Jesus said] But the same day that Lot went out of_Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.”

        Matthew 19:4-6 ”And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

        Jesus made it quite clear God made us male and female so that a man will leave his father and mother (not two fathers, not three mothers and so on) and cleave onto his wife (not his husband and so on).

        The Word of God rebukes us all – even if we all try to say we don’t believe the Bible, the very Word of God will be our judge when we face Him. And God is a righteous judge and will judge us all – not turn a blind eye to our sin. Do not be deceived by the world: it’s God we will have to convince that His word was a lie, not men. What happened in Noah’s day when the entire world rejected God? Did God spare them because there were so many? No – they all perished except for Noah and his family!

        Proverbs 9:10 ”The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.”

        God spared not His chosen people – we are kidding ourselves if we think He will spare the United States of America if we choose to blatantly turn away from Him.

        Jeremiah 12:17 ”But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.”

        Luke 17:28-30 “So also as it was in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; (29) but the day Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from the heaven and destroyed them all. (30) Even so it shall be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.”

        Romans 1:18-32 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold [suppress] the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

        For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

        Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

        For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

        And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, m urder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

        The entire Bible points out men having_sex with men is an abomination. Likewise woman having_sex with women. It’s not just Paul that pointed it out.

        Genesis 19:4-13 “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of S odom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them [men wanting to have_sex with men].

        And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing [he offers his daughters to be_raped to keep them from having_sex with another man – shows_rape is not the issue but male on male_sex]; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

        And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

        And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.”

        These two messengers were sent to destroy that place before the event where they tried to_rape these messengers.

        Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

        Leviticus 20:13 “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination …”

        Even cross-dressing is an abomination:

        Deuteronomy 22:5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

        Deuteronomy 23:17 “There shall be no_whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a s odomite of the sons of Israel.”

        1 Kings 22:46 “And the remnant of the s odomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land.”

        1 Kings 15:11-12 “And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father. And he took away the s odomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.”

        2 Kings 23:7 “And he brake down the houses of the s odomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove.”

        Ezekiel 16:49-50 “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister S odom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.”

        And the “pride” parades about homosexuality are more of the same.

        Matthew 19:4-5 “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?”

        Not father and father. Not mother and mother. Not his husband.

        And only two people of opposite gender can become “one flesh”.

        Not to mention you are using an NIV bible, which is a perversion of God’s Word. Google NIV bible false translation and read all about it.

        Live forever, people – not temporarily only to be cast out for living for the things of this world.

        May God/Jesus Christ be glorified!

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          That was the most useless set of biblical quotes I have ever read. I will have to post a lot to you because obviously you are not a biblical scholar or even a journeyman. I would say I am appalled, at your lack of knowledge., but i am not. The more and more I deal with Evangelical Protestant, the less Christian I think they are. I have come to conclude it is a political movement.

          Now Einstein I will start by answer your last quote first. Lot would have known if the crowd was homosexual, and it would have been an exercise in futility to offer his daughters to the crowd outside of his house. Even that old homophobe Pat Roberson admits was not destroyed because of homosexuality.

          One of the more common
          arguments against homosexuality used to be the destruction of Sodom and
          Gomorrah. We say “used to be,” because many biblical scholars and
          teachers today realise that there is insufficient scriptural backing for
          that argument. Let us together take a clear, honest look at these
          cities, and let us determine who the inhabitants were, and why God
          destroyed them.

          The first thing to realise is that it wasn’t just
          two cities involved. Today, we only remember the names of two, but in
          truth, God was about to destroy all the cities of the plain. In addition
          to Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of Admah, Zeboiim and Zoar were also
          about to be destroyed. (Gen. 14:2; Deut. 29:23) Zoar was spared so that
          Lot and his daughters could flee there, but Admah and Zeboiim met the
          same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. Another interesting point is that, at
          least in reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, the Bible doesn’t tell us
          their real names. Consider: The Hebrew word for Sodom is סדם S’dom and
          means “burnt.” The Hebrew word for Gomorrah is עמורה ‘Amorah, and means
          “a ruined heap.” There can be no question that these names were given to
          the cities after they were destroyed, and were not their original
          names.

          The inhabitants of these cities, like all the Canaanites,
          were worshippers of false gods. These included the god Molech, arguably
          the most horrible of all the idols of Canaan. Molech was a huge statue
          with his arms held out in front of him. A fire would be kindled between
          his arms, and then newborn children would be placed in his arms and
          burned alive. This was known as “passing your children through the fire
          to Molech.”

          Other practices engaged in by the Canaanites included
          adult human sacrifice, cannibalism, and temple prostitution. (Having
          sexual relations with temple prostitutes as a form of worship in
          fertility cults.) Is it any wonder that God was determined to destroy
          these cities? From a spiritual perspective, people who worship idols and
          engage in the above-mentioned practices are extremely likely to become
          demon-possessed, and it is quite probable that many, if not most, of the
          inhabitants of the cities of the plain were possessed.

          Lot,
          Abraham’s nephew, moved to the city of Sodom with his wife and two
          daughters. God sent two angels to Sodom in the evening, ostensibly to
          investigate the rumours of the sinfulness of the city. The real purpose
          of their visit, though, (since God already knew what was going on) was
          to rescue Lot and his family from the impending destruction. The account
          of their visit to the city is found in Genesis 19. Lot was sitting in
          the gate. This is significant. The person who sat in the gate, that is,
          the gatekeeper, was entrusted by the rulers of the city to monitor all
          traffic in and out of the city, and not to admit anyone who could
          endanger the city in any way. This was a serious responsibility, and the
          fact that it was given to Lot, who was not a native of the city, but a
          relative newcomer, was unusual.

          A word about the angels: Forget,
          for a moment, the traditional stereotypes of angels, that is, women with
          flowing blond hair and huge feathered wings. In scripture, angels
          usually appeared in the form of men. Frequently, there was nothing
          unusual about their appearance that would suggest they were anything
          other than human beings.

          Lot greeted the two visitors, as was his
          responsibility as gatekeeper. (He bowed to the ground, which was not an
          uncommon form of greeting from an inferior to a superior, in this case,
          from a public servant to strangers whose social status was unknown.) He
          then evidently inquired about their business in the city and specific
          destination, again, as part of his job. Upon learning that they intended
          to spend the night in the street, Lot insisted that they stay at his
          house. Some have argued that this was because he knew they would not be
          safe in the streets. The obvious aside, that there has probably never
          been a city where it is safe to sleep in the streets at night, the
          reason for Lot’s insistence was actually quite different. It was simply
          the law of hospitality. This law was unwritten at the time, but was
          universal throughout the area. It simply stated that if a stranger came
          to your home or city, you were to treat them as if they were part of
          your family. You were responsible to lodge, feed and protect them, even
          at the cost of your own life. Examples of Abraham treating strangers in
          this way can be found both in scripture and other Jewish writings. This
          law was later included in the Law of Moses.

          After much urging from
          Lot, the two visitors went to Lot’s house and he made dinner for them.
          Later that night, a mob formed outside of Lot’s house, demanding he
          bring out the guests. Traditionalists would have us believe that the mob
          was made up of homosexual men, wanting to have sex with the angels. But
          a careful reading of the verses shows clearly that this was not the
          case. Gen. 19:4 tells us “But before they lay down, the men of the city,
          even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young,
          all the people from every quarter.” At first glance, it does appear to
          be a crowd of men.

          But let’s look deeper. The phrase “the men of
          the city, even the men of Sodom” is misleading. In Hebrew, אנשי העיר
          אנשי סדם “anshei ha’ir, anshei S’dom,” can also be translated as “the
          people of the city, the people of Sodom.” But is that a more correct
          translation? The rest of the verse will answer that for us: “…both old
          and young, all the people from every quarter.” There is no question,
          then, that the entire population of Sodom gathered outside Lot’s house,
          men, women and children. This alone tells us that the traditionalists
          were wrong about the intent of this mob: If you are planning a
          homosexual orgy, you don’t invite the wife and kids!

          Of course,
          this begs the question, how did this mob come to form, and what did they
          want? The Bible doesn’t tell us, so we have to read between the lines
          and in so doing, backtrack from the mob scene outside Lot’s house to
          where the crowd first gathered. First, the fact that the entire
          population of the city was involved tells us that this was, to them, a
          matter of vital civic importance. They evidently felt that the visit of
          these two strangers was something that could affect every person in the
          city in some way. So logic suggests that the gathering would have begun
          at whatever public place Sodom used for such things, such as a City Hall
          or public square. Here was the situation as they would have seen it:
          Lot, a stranger who moved here and was given a position of some
          responsibility, has invited two strangers of unknown origin into the
          city and into his home. Sodom had only recently come out of war (Gen.
          14:1-2), and for all they knew, these men could have been spies. It was
          essential for the safety and peace of mind of all the citizens, that
          they determine the identity of these men. They knew, of course, of the
          law of hospitality, but the safety and security of the city overrode
          that. So a plan was devised: They would peacefully go to Lot’s house and
          ask to meet the strangers and know who they were. They even had their
          words chosen: “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out
          and let us know them.” It should be noted that this was phrased as a
          request, using a polite form of the verb “to know,” and was not phrased
          in a hostile, demanding way. And so the crowd began to move toward Lot’s
          house.

          Between their starting point and Lot’s house, something
          happened to this crowd of concerned citizens that turned them into a
          mob. When they reached Lot’s house, they delivered their prepared
          request, but even though the grammar was still very polite, the
          character of the people was now that of an ugly lynch mob. What could
          have happened?

          If the people of Sodom were possessed, as they most
          likely were, this would explain what happened. Even though the people
          did not know the visitors were angels, the evil spirits inside of them
          did. When you put a devil in the presence of someone holy, there will
          almost always be a reaction from the devil. (See Mark 5:1-7) The closer
          this crowd got to the angels at Lot’s house, the more riled up the
          demons got, and the more out of control the people got. This seems the
          only plausible explanation. The polite grammar of the crowd shows
          clearly that they could not have started out as a mob.

          There are
          those who claim that when the crowd said “let us know them,” they meant
          “have sex.” There are even translations of the Bible that say “let us
          have sex with them,”or “let us know them carnally.” Let us state
          categorically, that the Hebrew text will NOT support such
          “translations.”

          Some say that Hebrew has more than one verb for
          “know” and that the one used here means “have sex.” Let’s set the record
          straight on this. The root of the Hebrew verb for “know” is ידע yada. A
          form of yadais used here and hundreds of other times in scripture. Only
          about ten of those times refer to sex, and in each case, the sexual
          meaning is clear by the context. (Example: Adam knew his wife and she
          conceived.) To try to make this word mean sex everywhere will get us in a
          lot of trouble, because the scripture tells us that God knew David, and
          uses a form of this word. We don’t think anyone would be foolish enough
          to try to attach a sexual meaning to that. When the crowd outside Lot’s
          house said they wanted to know the visitors, they meant exactly that:
          To know who they were. Or at least, that was what they meant when they
          started out.

          It doesn’t take a genius to recognise a lynch mob.
          And a tiny family like Lot’s couldn’t hope to fight off such a mob. The
          only hope in such cases is to try to talk them out of it, or, failing in
          that, to try to distract them in some way. Lot tried both. He went out
          to them and asked them not to behave so wickedly. The hostile intent of
          the mob was clear to him, despite the polite words they used. It was
          also clear immediately that talking was not going to work. They were in
          what could only be termed a bloodlust. Lot, in desperation to protect
          his guests, did what the law of hospitality required. He was willing to
          sacrifice the lives of his daughters to protect the guests. A word about
          the two daughters: These girls were engaged to two men from Sodom. An
          engagement was much more binding in those days than it is today. Lot
          offered his two daughters, still virgins, to the crowd in place of the
          strangers. If he could distract the men of the crowd, then they, as the
          leaders of the city, could have disbanded the mob, and the guests would
          be safe.

          Consider this: If the men of Sodom were homosexual, there
          is no way Lot would not have known. He would have known it would be
          pointless to offer women to homosexual men. He could, and would, have
          offered them something they would be more likely to accept. (Had the
          crowd outside Lot’s house really been interested in raping the men
          inside, it hardly seems plausible that they would politely ask
          permission to do so, using a mild euphemism for sex. Hebrew has a number
          of verbs to describe sexual intercourse, and at least one of these, עגב
          agav, is considered somewhat vulgar. A rape gang would be far more
          likely to use a crude verb such as this.)

          Lot’s offer was refused,
          and they seized him, and said they were going to do worse to him than
          they were planning to do to his guests. Did they attempt any type of
          sexual contact with Lot? No! Instead, they tried to kill him. There was
          no sexual situation here at all. But, just for the sake of argument, if
          the intent of the crowd had been to force the angels to have sex, the
          crime would have been rape, not homosexuality.

          Ezekiel recorded
          the sins of Sodom: Ezek. 16:49-50 – pride, fullness of bread, abundance
          of idleness, they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy,
          they were haughty and committed abomination, or actually ‘taboo’. A note
          about this unspecified abomination: In the Law of Moses, many things
          are called abomination, including such things as eating pork and
          shellfish, having sex with a woman during her period, etc.

          But
          Sodom and the other cities were destroyed before the Law was written, so
          we need to look outside the Law for the definition of this word.
          Outside the Law, the word abomination almost always refers to the
          practices associated with idol worship, some of which were enumerated
          earlier. It should also be noted that ancient Jewish commentaries on
          Sodom (in the Mishnah) all agree that Sodom and the other cities were
          destroyed because of their cruelty to strangers and their failure to
          help the poor. None of them suggests anything in regard to homosexual
          activity.

          • Reason2012

            The only thing you’ve posted is a weak attempt to pervert God’s Word you copied from somewhere

            // Lot would have known if the crowd was homosexual, and it would have been an exercise in futility to offer his daughters to the crowd outside of his house //

            He knew they were seeking to homosexually_rape his guests, and in a poor state of mind offered up his daughter to be_raped instead. Maybe they were into homosexuality and heterosexuality. It goes to show that in spite of how he was in a poor state of judgment, he still realize even worse than rape is homosexual acts.

            // The Hebrew word for Sodom is סדם S’dom and means “burnt.” The Hebrew word for Gomorrah is עמורה ‘Amorah, and means “a ruined heap.” There can be no question that these names were given to the cities after they were destroyed, and were not their original names. //

            Their name is irrelevant to the fact they were destroyed for their grievous sin of homosexual behavior.

            Secondly you do realize some places, even cities DO get their name after the fact? Doesn’t change the fact of why it was destroyed but instead serves as a reminder to others.

            // The inhabitants of these cities, like all the Canaanites, were worshippers of false gods. //

            And yet the sin that was going on even then was the attempt at homosexual rape, and Lot tried to stop it by offering up his daughter to be raped instead.

            Secondly the NT makes it clear what the principle reason it was destroyed, and it was homosexual behavior:

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
            Jude 1:7

            // Traditionalists would have us believe that the mob was made up of homosexual men, wanting to have sex with the angels. But a careful reading of the verses shows clearly that this was not the case. //

            False. That is precisly the case.

            “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”
            Genesis 19:4-5

            That phrase translated from the Hebrew word yaw-dah’, which is used to point out when two people have_sex, like Gen 4:1

            “And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.”
            Genesis 4:1

            And even Lot verifies exactly what they meant when he rebuked it as being a WICKED homosexual_sex request and he then offered up his daughter to have_sex with them instead, to be raped by them instead.

            “And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”
            Genesis 19:6-8

            // the entire population of the city was involved tells us that this was, to them, a matter of vital civic importance. //

            Anther false claim that the Bible makes clear is a lie. This supposed “vital civic important” event was labeled as “wicked” by Lot in the very next verse and and in response to get them to NOT do this “vital civic important” event, he offers his daughter to be raped by them?! That’s completely illogical and instead Lot makes it beyond clear their intent was to rape the men, let alone that their request was outright wicked, not of “vital civic importance”.

            Not only that, but for your “vital civic important” event, the angels blinded the men and then destroyed the entire city, which again contradicts that lie.

            It’s clear you cut/paste a load of obvious false claims about what God makes clear. In the end it won’t matter how many people are fooled by whatever it is that homosexual activists cut/paste – what will matter is do you really think you’re going to fool God? That’s the only attempt at deception that will matter as it doesn’t matter how many others get fooled by these anti-Biblical lies.

            I would think again.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Dear Reason 2012,

            Thank you for writing to me and wasting my time. First of all dear friend. Let’s go through your response. You say it is a weak attempt to pervert the word of God. You further say that it has been refuted before. Source please? This is going to be fun. Now I said no one was going to be stupid enough to say that ידע yada meant to have sex. As I stated the 100s of times the word is used in the bible it means to have sex approximately 10 times and that IS clearly contextualised. Then you go and prove me wrong. There is someone stupid enough to say it. Are you saying God had sex with David? Have you morphed Yahweh into Zeus and David into Ganymede. ?

            I am going to remind you of the offences of Sodom.

            The inhabitants of these cities, like all the Canaanites,
            were worshippers of false gods. These included the god Molech, arguably
            the most horrible of all the idols of Canaan. Molech was a huge statue
            with his arms held out in front of him. A fire would be kindled between
            his arms, and then newborn children would be placed in his arms and
            burned alive. This was known as “passing your children through the fire
            to Molech.”Other practices engaged in by the Canaanites included
            adult human sacrifice, cannibalism, and temple prostitution. (Having
            sexual relations with temple prostitutes as a form of worship in
            fertility cults.) Is it any wonder that God was determined to destroy
            these cities?

            You seem to brush away these abominable acts in desperate attempt to make what is happening at Lots house to be about about homosexuality which it is not. Look how God reacts to idolatry .
            In fact idolatory and the worship of Molech was strictly forbidden
            in the Old Testament. When Solomon’s wives built shrines to their gods,
            then God punished Israel by destroying the empire.

            1 Kings 11:7-11Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            7
            Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab,
            and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of
            Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned
            incense and sacrificed to their gods.

            9 And the Lord was angry
            with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God
            of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him
            concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he
            did not keep what the Lord commanded. 11 Therefore the Lord said to
            Solomon, “Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my
            covenant and my statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear
            the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant.

            Let me offer up some further verses

            GOD
            abhors this and forbids in a number of verses
            Leviticus 18:21Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

            ************************************

            Leviticus 20:1-5Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            Penalties for Violations of Holiness

            20 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the people of Israel, Any man of the people of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, who gives any of his children to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 I myself will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. 4 And if the people of the land do at all hide their eyes from that man, when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, 5 then I will set my face against that man and against his family, and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in playing the harlot after Molech
            **********************************************************

            Deuteronomy 12:31Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            31 You shall not do so to the Lord your God; for every abominable thing which the Lord hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
            *********************************************************

            2 Kings 21:2-6Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            2 And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to the abominable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel. 3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezeki′ah his father had destroyed; and he erected altars for Ba′al, and made an Ashe′rah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served them. 4 And he built altars in the house of the Lord, of which the Lord had said, “In Jerusalem will I put my name.” 5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the Lord. 6 And he burned his son as an offering, and practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

            ************************************************************************

            Now I think I have shown clearly how God hated the Canaan practise of passing their children through the fire to Molech. If this is unclear and you need further verses I am happy to supply them.

            I will now deal with human sacrifice. Let me be clear that the Lord God hates this practise.

            Deuteronomy 18:10Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            10 There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer,

            *************************************************************

            Jeremiah 7:31Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            31 And they have built the high place[a] of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

            ******************************************************************

            Psalm 106:37-41Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            37 They sacrificed their sons
            and their daughters to the demons;
            38 they poured out innocent blood,
            the blood of their sons and daughters,
            whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
            and the land was polluted with blood.
            39 Thus they became unclean by their acts,
            and played the harlot in their doings.

            40 Then the anger of the Lord was kindled against his people,
            and he abhorred his heritage;
            41 he gave them into the hand of the nations,
            so that those who hated them ruled over them.

            **************************************************

            I HOPE YOU ARE GETTING THE PICTURE FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF SODOM AND GOMORRAH, but i will keep going.

            I think you need to see what God thinks of temple prostitution, another of the offences which caused God to obliterate the Sodom and Gomorrah.
            ***************************************************************************
            Deuteronomy 23:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            18
            You shall not bring the hire of a harlot or the wages of a [a]dog into
            the house of the Lord your God for any votive offering, for both of
            these are an abomination to the Lord your God.

            Footnotes:

            Deuteronomy 23:18 I.e. male prostitute, *Sodomite

            Male
            cult or temple prostitution was enormously popular during all the
            period of Scripture and seemed to have been awfully attractive to
            many of the Hebrews, leading to the demand in Deuteronomy 23:17-18:
            None of the daughters of Israel shall be a cult prostitute, nor
            shall any of the sons of Israel be a cult prostitute. You shall not
            bring the hire of harlot or the wages of a dog into the house of the
            Lord your God…, for both of these are an abomination to the Lord
            your God. (New American Standard). As I noted in the , male priests
            of the Great Goddess were called dogs by the Hebrews. David
            Greenberg, in The Construction of Homosexuality (pages 96 and
            following), finds further support for this in other nearby ancient
            cultures: among others, a fourth century B.C. Phoenician
            inscription found on Cyprus “refers to a category of temple
            personnel who played a role in the sacred service of Astarte,
            identifies the kelev (dog) as a religious functionary…. The
            Sumerogram [a picture-word] for assinu, a male-homosexual cult
            prostitute… joines the symbols for ‘dog’ and ‘woman.'”

            What is
            telling is the Hebrew Qadesh (or sometimes translated as*Sodomite ) is
            always used with idolatry or temple male prostitution as it was a
            common practice in the worship of Dagon and Baal, Bacchus and Dionysius.
            This is not to say that the worshippers are homosexual rather it was
            religious expectation of the men involved in giving back to the God. It
            is also interesting that a sodomite is not having consensual male sex,
            rather it is cultic male prostitution.
            *********************************************************
            1 Kings 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            24
            There were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according
            to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord dispossessed
            before the sons of Israel.

            ***************************************************************

            What is clear is the unwritten law of hospitality to
            strangers. Lot was under obligation to protect visitors even at the
            cost of his life. Later on when Mosaic law is codified there are strong
            injunctions against harming strangers, It is indeed interesting that
            those who say that the crowd is a frenzied group of homosexual that Lot
            offers his daughters to sate the mob, as a form of distraction. Lot
            would have known that it would have been a useless offer is the crowd
            was indeed homosexualThe Mishnah Which is the oral tradition of
            the Torah states categorically that Sodom was destroyed because of
            inhospitality to strangers. Here are the verses that that in fact deal
            with hospitality to strangers.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            I have responded to you. However, I am beholden to the powers of CNS news as it is in a pending state. Though i should think they will publish it as it answers all of your points.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Dear Reason 2012,

            Thank you for writing to me and wasting my
            time. First of all dear friend. Let’s go through your response. You
            say it is a weak attempt to pervert the word of God. You further say
            that it has been refuted before. Source please? This is going to be
            fun.:)

            Now I said no one was going to be stupid enough to say
            that ידע yada meant to have sex. As I stated the 100s of times the word
            is used in the bible it means to have sex approximately 10 times and
            that IS clearly contextualised. Then you go and prove me wrong. There
            is someone stupid enough to say it. Are you saying God had sex with
            David? Have you morphed Yahweh into Zeus and David into Ganymede ?

            I am going to remind you of the offences of Sodom.

            The inhabitants of these cities, like all the Canaanites,
            were worshippers of false gods. These included the god Molech, arguably
            the most horrible of all the idols of Canaan. Molech was a huge statue
            with his arms held out in front of him. A fire would be kindled between
            his arms, and then newborn children would be placed in his arms and
            burned alive. This was known as “passing your children through the fire
            to Molech.”Other practices engaged in by the Canaanites included
            adult human sacrifice, cannibalism, and temple prostitution. (Having
            sexual relations with temple prostitutes as a form of worship in
            fertility cults.) Is it any wonder that God was determined to destroy
            these cities?

            You
            seem to brush away these abominable acts in desperate attempt to make
            what is happening at Lots house to be about about homosexuality which it
            is not. Look how God reacts to idolatry .
            In fact idolatory and the worship of Molech was strictly forbidden
            in the Old Testament. When Solomon’s wives built shrines to their gods,
            then God punished Israel by destroying the empire.

            1 Kings 11:7-11Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            7
            Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab,
            and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of
            Jerusalem. 8 And so he did for all his foreign wives, who burned
            incense and sacrificed to their gods.

            9 And the Lord was angry
            with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God
            of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him
            concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he
            did not keep what the Lord commanded. 11 Therefore the Lord said to
            Solomon, “Since this has been your mind and you have not kept my
            covenant and my statutes which I have commanded you, I will surely tear
            the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant.

            Let me offer up some further verses

            GOD
            abhors this and forbids in a number of verses
            Leviticus 18:21Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

            ************************************

            Leviticus 20:1-5Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            Penalties for Violations of Holiness

            20
            The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the people of Israel, Any man of the
            people of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, who gives
            any of his children to Molech shall be put to death; the people of the
            land shall stone him with stones. 3 I myself will set my face against
            that man, and will cut him off from among his people, because he has
            given one of his children to Molech, defiling my sanctuary and profaning
            my holy name. 4 And if the people of the land do at all hide their
            eyes from that man, when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do
            not put him to death, 5 then I will set my face against that man and
            against his family, and will cut them off from among their people, him
            and all who follow him in playing the harlot after Molech
            **********************************************************

            Deuteronomy 12:31Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            31
            You shall not do so to the Lord your God; for every abominable thing
            which the Lord hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn
            their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
            *********************************************************

            2 Kings 21:2-6Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            2
            And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to the
            abominable practices of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the
            people of Israel. 3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezeki′ah his
            father had destroyed; and he erected altars for Ba′al, and made an
            Ashe′rah, as Ahab king of Israel had done, and worshiped all the host of
            heaven, and served them. 4 And he built altars in the house of the
            Lord, of which the Lord had said, “In Jerusalem will I put my name.” 5
            And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the
            house of the Lord. 6 And he burned his son as an offering, and
            practiced soothsaying and augury, and dealt with mediums and with
            wizards. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to
            anger.

            ************************************************************************

            Now
            I think I have shown clearly how God hated the Canaan practise of
            passing their children through the fire to Molech. If this is unclear
            and you need further verses I am happy to supply them.

            I will now deal with human sacrifice. Let me be clear that the Lord God hates this practise.

            Deuteronomy 18:10Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            10
            There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his
            daughter as an offering,[a] any one who practices divination, a
            soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer,

            *************************************************************

            Jeremiah 7:31Revised Standard Version (RSV)

            31
            And they have built the high place[a] of Topheth, which is in the
            valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in
            the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

            ******************************************************************

            Psalm 106:37-41Revised Standard Version (RSV)37 They sacrificed their sons
            and their daughters to the demons;
            38 they poured out innocent blood,

          • Reason2012

            // As I stated the 100s of times the word is used in the bible it means to have sex approximately 10 times and that IS clearly contextualised.//

            And Lots’ response to that request to have_sex with his guests (which is one of those times it’s used to talk about having_sex with) was to offer his daughter for them to have_sex with instead, which makes it even clearer those men were seeking to have_sex with Lot’s male guests, to in fact rape them.

            As you say, context.

            And you’ve been told this before and ignore it, which shows everyone else how dishonest you are determined to be on the subject. You then repeat your other claims that were already refuted as if repeating pages of false claims that were refuted makes them any more true.

            Not to mention the Revised Standard Version (RSV) and New American Standard Bible (NASB) are false translations – you might as well use the “Queen James Bible” and pretend what it says holds any weight and it would be just as pointless.

            Thank you for posting.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Wow you did not refute a thing. All you have done is prove you biblically and scholastically challenged.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Wow you did not refute a thing. All you have done is prove you
            biblically and scholastically challenged. So now you are challenging
            biblical interpretations. And you know why he offered his daughters it
            was to placate the leaders of the crowd. His household could not fend
            off the city of Sodom. They threatened to do worse to Lot which meant
            they would kill him. Since you won’t take the bible’s. and the
            Mishnah’s interpretation, I will send you a link also from Pat Robertson
            who agrees with me my interpretation. You know the reason why God destroyed the cities of the plain was
            because of infant sacrifice to Molech, adult human sacrifice, temple
            prostitution and cannibalism. When Israel fell into such sin God
            destroyed their nation and placed them into captivity. You ignore every
            command from God against this behaviour which is a desperate attempt
            to pervert the word. Even if you say that Sodom is destroyed because of
            the intention of the men to have sex with Lot’s visitors, the crime
            would be pack rape and not consensual homosexuality.

          • Guest

            A mob that was known to punish both poor travelers and those that helped them asking to have the men come out so they could ‘get to know them’ ‘yada’ was a threat. The Talmud talks of the incident that had made the cities call out for God’s judgment that had happened just a short time ago:

            A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, [hiding it] in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great. leading us to Genesis 18:20

            This incident was fresh in Lot’s mind, he knew what would happen to him for allowing the strangers into his home, he had even washed their feet. If they had gone outside they would have all been set upon.

            There were four judges in Sodom, [named] Shakrai, Shakurai, Zayyafi, and Mazle Dina. Now, if a man assaulted his neighbor’s wife and bruised her, they would say [to the husband], ‘Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for you.’

            His offer of his daughters was to a group he knew to be sexually libertine and had a sincere hope it would satisfy the crowd.

            Judges 19 confirms this use of the word ‘yada’. A similar mob wanted to rob the traveler and offered his concubine, the mob refused – but when he forced her out they had their way with her anyway, very heterosexually. And later when the man was spoken to, make no mistake he knew what the mob wanted – ‘they wanted to kill me’ he said.

            ‘Yada’ is rarely used as a euphemism for heterosexual intercourse, but not same sex. If it did then Moses could have just said ‘if a man knows a man as he knows a woman’ but he didn’t since ‘yada’ never refers to same sex sexual activity.

          • Reason2012

            // A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, [hiding it] in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great. leading us to Genesis 18:20 //

            “For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;”
            Genesis 18:19-20

            Not sure what you hope to gain by just outright lying, except to show everyone else what you’re really all about.

            Thank you for posting.

          • Guest

            You realize that you have just confirmed that that Talmud story continues on exactly where I said it did right? You have just supported my case.

            Thanks for posting indeed!

          • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

            Reason2012, ‘Guest’ is a longtime, longtime troll activist who originally (as of two years ago, at least) went under the user ID Oshtur. In total, he’s been booted off of Charisma News at least 12 times due to not honoring his ban and creating sock-puppets.

            And because moderators on sites like these have seemingly very little backbone in standing up for the Bible, accounts like his get to troll on here with almost zero resistance.

            At the end of the day — they love their sin.

          • Reason2012

            True. But it’s a good example to others to see how flat out dishonest and hateful homosexual activists typically are and how to expose their lies, so others learn from his hate, which is typical of activists.

          • rubellapox2

            Didn’t lot then have sex with his daughters…. You religious folks always forget to mention that…Oh and this is not a cut and paste, just a simple question… is this what counts as a righteous person to you?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Something else I wonder about. If Adam and Eve where the first humans how did they populate the world? Their kids having sex with each other? That makes it incest and that is a sin according to the bible.

          • D.M.S.

            All you have simply is itching ears. And no amount of scripture is going to keep you from your lust and love of men, unless you’re a bi or tri or quad sexual. Satan has tou right where he wants you.

  • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

    That is why homo-atheists like to troll Christian websites n businesses, ie to use the govt to persecute Christians, esp liberal govts, eg the Blue States in USA.

    • Patrick Van Der Ven

      Tell me how you Evangelical Protestants are being persecuted? Evangelical Protestantism is more a right political movement that has endeavoured to hijack the term Christian and failed. So please I await with baited breath.

      • cadcoke5

        If we keep our Christian morals at the business we own, we are prohibited from contracting any deals with the Federal government. If you own a wedding shop, video service, or bakery, in some states, you will be put out of business if you fail to celebrate homosexual weddings. If a chaplain in the military, refers to what this scripture says when they are counseling someone they move to get rid of him,

        And to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the left, in Colorado if a baker refuses a homosexual wedding cake, they are put out of business But, if a homosexual baker refuses to make a cake with similar scripture, to what the UK pastor quoted, that is not deemed to be any violation.

        Jesus said that we would be persecuted for proclaiming his word. The amount of persecution has varied over time, and in the end times, will be very strong. We may eventually have to do our businesses underground, if current current trend of persecution in the U.S. increases significantly. But, perhaps the U.S. will repent, and turn back to God.

        • Jalapeno

          “If we keep our Christian morals at the business we own, we are prohibited from contracting any deals with the Federal government”

          Says who?

          “And to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the left, in Colorado if a baker refuses a homosexual wedding cake, they are put out of business But, if a homosexual baker refuses to make a cake with similar scripture, to what the UK pastor quoted, that is not deemed to be any violation.”

          It’s not hypocrisy.

          You will be expected to sell a specific product regardless of the sexual orientation of who you are selling to.

          You can not be expected to put writing on a cake that you do not agree to.

          • cadcoke5

            >Says who?
            President Obama put out an executive order prohibiting any contracts with companies that do not permit people to use the bathroom/locker-room of their choice.

            >You can not be expected to put writing on a cake that you do
            > not agree to.
            The example of the wedding cake includes a baker, who for years, had made the men’s birthday cakes, knowing they were homosexual. She is happy to sell cakes to them. But, a homosexual wedding cake is not simply a cake. It includes, by its nature, a message that is an approval of that sin. If they simply wanted a cake, they could have gone to Walmart and purchased a pre-made cake in a box. Instead, they wanted an artist to use their creative skills to celebrate sin.

          • Jalapeno

            “It includes, by its nature, a message that is an approval of that sin”

            Did they have to put special writing on the cake or did they just have to do the same thing they’re willing to do for everyone else?

          • cadcoke5

            It is the style of the cake that is carrying the message. They have sold cakes to this couple before. It the message of “Wedding” that this homosexual couple specifically wanted this cake to communicate. The words don’t have to be spelled on the cake to indicate what the message is about.

          • Jalapeno

            It’s a wedding cake. If they sell other wedding cakes, then this is equivalent to them.

            Having your own internal meaning about something doesn’t actually mean that its’ a different item.

            Maybe somebody thinks that a hammer is different if a woman is using it…but they’d still be expected to sell “girl hammers” and “boy hammers” wouldn’t they?

          • cadcoke5

            Wedding cakes are not normally just generic designs put out in a box in the display case. Rather, they are custom designed and created by an artist. That puts it into a different category than selling hammers.

            This is a special issue for artists, because they do really put their hearts into their creations.

          • Jalapeno

            It’s still effectively the same type of product…

            They are asking for a typical wedding cake with standard type decorations. Cake places customize and whatnot, but they still have a standard product. Providing a new type of art is exempt from the law, but doing what you would do for someone else is not.

          • cadcoke5

            Is it OK for the bakers to put a man and woman as their normal decoration on the top? Or do they need to change their normal practice to help celebrate this sin?

          • Jalapeno

            Why would they pay extra money for cake toppers when the client wouldn’t want them?

          • Guest

            Isn’t interesting how gossip spreads?

            You are conflating the Oregon bakery and the Washington florist stories. You do realize that gossip is a grievous sin, right?

            And anyone wanting a federal contract can just have single user restrooms change rooms – problem solved, conscience obeyed.

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          Oh you poor babies you can not discriminate against a minority group in some states because it contravenes anti-discrimination laws. Well let me see: when you go into business you implicitly and explicitly agree to abide by the laws of the state. It is called a social contract. if you are in the business of supplying wedding cakes to folks who are getting married you need to supply wedding cakes them. Those that say that the Kleins for example are being persecuted renewed their business licence when the anti-discrimination laws were in force. If you can’t ABIDE BY THE LAW THEN don’t go into business. What anarchy you would have if people decided to pick and choose laws they would abide by. You are going to sublime to the ridiculous: at no point were the Klein’s compelled to attend the wedding nor were they forced to condone it.

          Hypocrisy reigns supreme. I see Bakers in Texas quoting their Religious rights to discriminate against gay wedding cakes, but take this: they are happy to make cakes for Halloween. Yes, from what I recall that the celebration of a Celtic Pagan Festival called Samhain. Oh and what else oh of course you’re happy to condone adultery and supply wedding cakes to divorcees. Doctor’s are using their first amendment right to refuse to treat the child of same sex couples

          You know churches can refuse to marry people of colour or perform mixed marriages, and you say your are persecuted.

          Do you know Jesus acknowledged that humans were born gay and cured the homosexual lover of the centurion? Do you know that married homosexuals were accepted and given full admission into the early church for the first four centuries after the death of Christ. It was not until the council of Elvira in 306 AD that barred homosexuals from communion in the Western Roman Empire and 314 AD at the council of Ancyra in the Eastern Roman Empire.

          Around the same time that the Church began advising the emperors that
          burning gay people alive in public was what Christ would want, it also
          began purposefully mistranslating all passages connected with homosexual
          behaviour, and this deception lasted for well over 1,500 years…
          especially since they had successfully created a public image of gay
          people as being close to demons.

          “It will sometimes be necessary
          to use falsehood for the benefit of those who need such a mode of
          treatment.” -Eusebius of Nicomedia (Christian emperor Constantine’s
          overseer of church doctrine and history, 342)

          “It should be enough
          for you to know that there is a good shepherd who gave his soul for his
          sheep … How big God is, what His limits are, and of what essence … such
          questions are dangerous … they shall be taken care of with silence.” –
          St Basil

          As soon as Christianity in the early 300’s gained
          political dominance, look how quickly and brutally things changed when a
          few bishops with sexual hangups and desire for power, gained the ear of
          the emperors, whose word was law.. this is why your Founding Fathers
          wisely chose to separate Church and State:

          305-306 – Council of
          Elvira (now Granada, Spain). This council was representative of the
          Western European Church and among other things, it barred homosexuals
          the right to Communion.

          314 – Council of Ancyra (now Ankara,
          Turkey). This council was representative of the Eastern European Church
          and it excluded the Sacraments for 15 years to unmarried men under the
          age of 20 who were caught in homosexual acts, and excluded the man for
          life if he was married and over the age of 50.

          342 – Under advice
          from their bishops, the first law against same-sex marriage (which had
          previously been legal) was decreed by the Christian emperors Constantius
          II and Constans.

          390 – Under advice from their bishops, Christian
          emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual
          sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be
          burned alive in front of the public.

          529 – The Christian emperor
          Justinian I (527–565) made homosexuals a public scapegoat for problems
          such as “famines,earthquakes, and pestilences.”

          589 – The
          Visigothic kingdom in Spain, is converted from Arianism to Catholicism.
          This conversion leads to a revision of the law to conform to those of
          Catholic countries. These revisions include provisions for the
          persecution of gays and Jews.

          693 – In Iberia, Visigothic ruler
          Egica of Hispania and Septimania, demanded that a Church council
          confront the occurrence of homosexuality in the Kingdom. The Sixteenth
          Council of Toledo issued a statement in response, which was adopted by
          Egica, stating that homosexual acts be punished by castration, exclusion
          from Communion, hair shearing, one hundred stripes of the lash, and
          banishment into exile.

          1120 – Baldwin II of the Kingdom of
          Jerusalem, convenes the Council of Nablus to address the vices within
          the Kingdom. The Council calls for the burning of individuals who
          perpetually commit homosexual acts.

          1179 – The Third Lateran Council of Rome issues a decree for the excommunication of homosexuals.

          1232
          – Pope Gregory IX starts the Inquisition in the Italian City-States.
          Some cities called for banishment and/or amputation as punishments for
          1st- and 2nd-offending homosexuals and burning for the 3rd or habitual
          offenders.

          1260 – In France, first-offending homosexuals lost
          their testicles, second offenders lost their member, and third offenders
          were burned. Women caught in same-sex acts could be mutilated and
          executed as well.

          1265 – Thomas Aquinas argues that homosexuality is second only to murder in the ranking of sins.

          1283
          – The French Civil Code dictated that convicted homosexuals should not
          only be burned but also that their property would be forfeited.

          1370s
          – Jan van Aersdone and Willem Case were two men executed in Antwerp at
          this time. The charge against them was same gender intercourse. Aersdone
          and Case stand out because records of their names have survived.

          1432
          – In Florence the first organisation specifically intended to prosecute
          homosexuality is established, the “Night Officials”, which over the
          next 70 years arrest about 10,000 men and youths.

          1451 – Pope Nicholas V enables the papal Inquisition to persecute men who practise homosexuality.

          1475
          – In Peru, a chronicle written under the Capac Yupanqui government
          describes the persecution of homosexuals with public burnings and
          destruction of homes (a practice usually reserved for conquered tribes).

          1483
          – The Spanish Inquisition begins. Homosexuals were stoned, castrated,
          and burned. Between 1540 and 1700, more than 1,600 people were
          prosecuted for homosexuality.

          1532 – Holy Roman Empire makes homosexuality punishable by death.

          1533 – King Henry VIII passes the Buggery Act 1533 making anal intercourse punishable by death throughout England.

          1620 – Brandenburg-Prussia criminalises homosexuality, making it punishable by death.

          1721 – Catherina Margaretha Linck is executed for lesbianism in Germany.

          1836
          – The last known execution for homosexuality in Great Britain. James
          Pratt and John Smith are hanged at Newgate prison, London after being
          caught together in private lodgings.

          1895 – The trial of Oscar
          Wilde results in his being prosecuted under the Criminal Law Amendment
          Act 1885 for “gross indecency” for having sex with other males, and is
          sentenced to two years hard labour in prison, ruining his health.

          1945
          – Upon the liberation of Nazi concentration camps by Allied forces,
          those who were interned for homosexuality, and who miraculously
          survived.. are not freed, but required to serve out the full term of
          their sentences under Paragraph 175.

          1954 – June 7th –Mathematical
          computer genius and WW2 hero Alan Turing commits suicide by cyanide
          poisoning, 18 months after being given a choice between two years in
          prison or libido-reducing hormone treatment for a year as a punishment
          for homosexuality.

          ‘True‘ Christianity is at long last returning
          to its original and loving self of the first 300 years of its existence,
          before bishops, priests, and fanatics tried to control the spiritual
          life of others with Jesus or their God, and we are freeing ourselves
          from the religious fanatics that in our recent past, were no better than
          ISIS or the Taliban in their zeal to use their holy book to torment and
          condemn others, and who if ever in power would destroy our civilisation
          just as surely as they did in the past.

          One need only look at
          Syria and other places where a holy book is used as a weapon, and where
          only ‘one’ narrow form of a religion is allowed. This is why the
          majority of American citizens, more and more Christians, and the
          enlightened world now recognise gay people as being just how God created
          them, and are just as worthy of human love, marriage, and respect for
          their unions, just as heterosexuals are.

          • Paige Turner

            That was exceptional.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Thank you 😉

          • JeffreyRo55

            HIV sorority sisters.

          • Paige Turner

            What an appallingly ignorant and offensive thing so say. Shame on you

          • hytre64

            That was exceptional(ly condescending).

            You say we ought to roll over, close our businesses and put up with unjust laws. I say that as Citizens, we have every right to protest unjust laws (and unjust court rulings), and to NOT be subjected to such discrimination.

          • Guest

            No, just run the business legally. You can’t sell something to the general public and respect their civil rights there are other business models that can be used, spelled out in the statutes, that would allow the business to obey its ‘conscience’ and operate legally, the owners are either just too ignorant, lazy, or greedy to bother.

          • hytre64

            OR… You can get the statutes changed and still operate legally. People are being forced to either give up their legal business due to changes in the law/interpretations of the law or to violate their conscience. Nothing “Ingorant/ lazy /greedy” about that. These are hard-working people whom the LGTBQ lobby are driving out of business either by direct retribution from the government, or through intimidation that the government might attack them for their religious beliefs.

          • Guest

            people have had a right to not share the religious beliefs and practices of businesses making public offers for decades.

            or are you erroneously thinking that marriage equality has something to do with these cases? it doesn’t, a person can have a wedding whether they can legally enter the civil contract of marriage or not.

            these are people that want to religiously discriminate against the public, these are reprobates that want to ignore their fellow citizens right to have beliefs different than their own about God and marriage.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            If you are in the business of supplying a service, and a person makes a request for said service, denial on the basis of religious grounds is bigotry. I will remind you that up until 1964 coloured people could be denied service by white people on the basis of religious belief. Until `1964 you had the rabid right asserting the same argument as you. That is exactly like the denial of service to gay people, it is bigotry cloaked by religion.

            You only have to supply a service, nothing more nothing less. No one is asking to bless or attend the marriage heck even support it. If that is so onerous ordeal (legal compliance) you need to close your business .

            What is humorous is you say the laws are unjust and rulings are unjust. Let me remind you it is the people who have empowered the legislatures to enact these laws and it is courts who rule upon them. In a secular society no one can choose which laws they will or will not adhere to.

          • hytre64

            Business owners ALSO have rights. Among these rights is the avoidance of forced speech.

            There is a (imho) vast difference between refusing service to a person based on who they are vs. refusing service to an event based on the content of the event.

            Examples:

            Forcing a black caterer to cater for a KKK convention

            Forcing a homosexual baker to prepare cakes for a Pro-Traditional Marriage Rally (w/ appropriate messages on the cakes).

            Forcing a Jewish Florist to make flower arrangements for an American Nazi convention.

            Please note, in all of these examples, it is the event not the individuals attempting to procure the services, which would trigger the business owners ability to reject the service based on the implicit message of the business owners agreement with the event

          • Guest

            1) the catering business can refuse the KKK event isn’t part of a civil rights class. 2) even if it was the business could send someone else.

            The gay-owned bakery is probably pro traditional marriage too – I don’t know anyone who is against men and women marrying. and a simple policy that they don’t put any derogatory messages on cakes (a policy most business that do signage have) covers them.

            and, again Nazis aren’t in a protected class and the florist business can let someone else make the arrangements even if they couldn’t refuse.

            that is the common lie told, that some individual must do whatever but the truth is it is the business with the obligation, not any particular employee.

            but then lies are the stock and trade on the side trying to justify discrimination

          • hytre64

            So, there are special “protected classes” of people that have more rights than others. I guess George Orwell was correct, “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others…”

            By “Pro Traditional Marriage”, I mean those who define marriage strictly by the Biblical Standard of a man and a woman.

            Florists have been sued for trying to refer business to another florist, and often some of these small shops are one person shops.

          • Guest

            Special protected classes? Like Race? You know anyone without a race? Sex? Know anyone without a sex? Ethnicity?… (see where I’m going here) Everyone fits in all the civil rights groups, its not ’special rights’ it is the people saying that these qualities are off the table when dealing with the public in a civilized society.

            Florist shops have discriminated against customers illegally, yes. The one in Washington state though had an employee that would have gladly taken care of the order from this customer from counter to completion but they weren’t allowed to – the business owner ordered all the staff to break the law and the employee quit on the spot rather than be part of such a criminal act.

          • hytre64

            I know that there are special “set asides” in government contracts for women and minorities. Are there special “set asides” for white males?

            I know that federal election laws (and housing laws, etc) look to see if the *effect* of the law (even if not the intent) has a disparate impact on special protected classes, however NO such consideration is given to see if the law has a disparate impact on non-special classes.

          • Guest

            Those aren’t civil rights laws but trying to increase diversity. Point of fact the SCOTUS as ruled that simple quotas to do such things is unconstitutional.

            If you want to talk about such laws designed to help increase diversity that has its origins in historical discrimination we might be able to find a thread about that, but here it’s off topic.

          • rubellapox2

            what discrimination are you facing?

          • hytre64

            In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . .

            I am personally in a position where I am secure (though I do need to ensure that all of my language is “Politically Correct” in my job, so it has had a chilling effect on my Freedom of Speech). A gentleman, who will hopefully soon be family due to marriage, though has had his photography business severely affected by the chilling effects of these lawsuits.

            If something unjust affects my brother (but not me directly) should I be selfish and ignore his plight? The Bible says to bear one anothers burdens, and so fulfill the Law of Christ.

          • rubellapox2

            So, gay people aren’t your “brothers and sisters?” And does that make it ok to discriminate against gay people? I don’t remember Christ laws saying to discriminate and treat gay people unjustly…

          • hytre64

            Yes, people who suffer from Same-Sex-Attraction can be my brother and sisters in Christ. I would counsel them the same as anyone else – flee youthful lusts and avoid the temptation to sin.

            Likewise, I don’t believe that the law treats them unfairly – they are just as free as anyone else to marry a person of the opposite gender, as that is the definition of marriage.

          • Brad F

            Since you love to make lists of crimes people, here’s a list of homosexual men who were serial killers. Unlike your lists, mine refers to events that happened recently, not 500 years ago. In my lifetime, homosexual men are clearly much more violent than Christians. No contest.

            Jeffrey Dahmer, murdered and dismembered at least 17 males, 1978-1991
            John Wayne Gacy, murdered 33 boys and young men, 1972-78
            William Bonin, the Freeway Killer in California, raped, tortured, and murdered at least 21 young men and boys 1979-80
            Joseph E. Duncan III, raped at least 17 males, murdered 3, 1998-2005
            Larry Eyler, the Interstate Killer, 23 males, 1982-84
            Andrew Cunanan, murdered 5 (including Gianni Versace), 1997
            Randy Steven Kraft, murdered 65, 1971-83, the “Score Card Killer”
            Patrick Kearney and David D. Hill, murdered at least 28 (possibly as many as 43), 1968-77
            Wayne Williams, murdered at least 23, 1979-81
            Dean Corll, David Brooks, and Elmer Henley, murdered at least 278 1970-73
            Juan Corona, murdered 27, 1971
            Vaughn Greenwood, murdered at least 11, 1974-75, the “Skid Row Slasher”
            Michael Terry, 6 murdered, 1985-86

            Henry Lee Lucas and Ottis Toole, murdered at least 12, late 1970s, early 1980s
            Richard Speck, murdered at least 8, 1966
            Paul Bateson, 6 murdered, 1977-78
            Arthur Gary Bishop, 5 murdered, 1984
            Westley Alan Dodd, at least 3 murdered
            David Edward Maust, 5 murdered, 2003

            Total 556 murders, 21 gay serial killers, all US, between 1970 and 2005.

            Also: Gay men who murdered straights:
            Vester Flanagan, August 26, 2015, murdered 2, injured 1
            Donald Harvey, the “Angel of Death,” murdered at least 25, 1970-71, but claims to have murdered more than 87 people, mostly by poisoning. He also poisoned his husband, and infected some hospital patients with hepatitis B and HIV.
            Michael Swango, murdered at least 35, 1983-97, “Doctor of Death”
            The two DC snipers, John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo, were homosexual lovers, and together they killed ten people and injured 3 more.
            Total, 72 killed by 5 gay serial killers in the United States, 1970-2015
            Floyd Corkins famously attempted to murder staff at the Family Research Council on Aug 15, 2012, shot a security guard. Sentenced to 25 years in prison. Corkins told police he had intended to kill “as many as possible.” He was carrying a bag of 15 Chick-Fil-A sandwiches and claimed he intended to smear them in his victims’ faces.

            There are others. The alleged “hate crime” of Matthew Shepherd was no hate crime, in fact it has been thoroughly debunked by a gay author. Shepherd was a drug abuser, murdered by two other druggies in a drug deal that turned violent. There’s a whole website devoted to hoax hate crimes, most perpetrated by homosexuals. For the ones who are too timid to actually kill each other to get their names in the news, they can always stage hoaxes. Real publicity gluttons.

            You got stuff from the Middle Ages, I got stuff from 2015.
            Guess who the bad boys are in the 21st century. Not the Christians.

            End of discussion.

          • Guest

            Oh my goodness! There are bad people that are gay!

            exactly what does that have to do – to a Christian – with all the gays that aren’t serial killers?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Oh blimey let me see last year there were 15,000 murders in the US alone, a total of 305,000 gun deaths between 2005-2015. Whilst horrible 556 murders over

          • rubellapox2

            oh please..let’s look at all the heterosexual serial killers In “our lifetime…”

            gary ridgeway killed at least 49 women, heterosexual..Ahmad Suradji killed at least 42 women he was straight..Ted Bundy killed at least 30 women, he was heterosexual…Jose Antonio Rodriguez killed at least 16 older women after raping them…Raymond Fernandez killed at least 20 women with the help of his girlfriend…John Duffy and David Mulcahy killed 3 women and raped many more in 1986…Coral Eugene Watts killed and raped at least 12 women, but investigators say it could have been hundreds…Peter Sutcliffe killed 13 women..Anthony Sowell killed and raped at least 11 women…Adnan Colak killed and raped at least 11 elderly women.. Timothy Krajicir killed and raped at least 9 women between 1977-1982..Keith Hunter Jesperson killed at least 8 women…Rodney Alcala killed somewhere between 8 and 130 women, during 1968-1979…Christopher Wilder kidnapped and raped at least 12 women, 8 of which he murdered.. During 1994-2004, Sean Vincent Gillis kidnapped, raped, mutilated and murdered 8 women…Derrick Todd Lee killed at least 7 women between 1992-2003 around Louisiana State University…Dayton Leroy Rogers killed 7 women.

            All heterosexuals…should we ban straight couples and restrict their rights because of murderers? What a lame post sir/madam…

        • Guest

          No business has been asked to celebrate a wedding. They have been asked to provide an advertised service while respecting the civil rights of the customer, an obligation they knew they had before they invited the public to come and buy their wares and services.

          And why are you deliberately being deceitful and conflating a wedding cake with a cake with offensive writing on it? This is the 21st century, no one writes on their wedding cake, most don’t even have cake toppers anymore. And all of these cases the customer was rejected before the design of the cake was even decided. To try and say that it was ‘the cake’ and its a design that was ever the problem is simply put – a lie.

          No, each of these cases was a customer walking in the door and the business measuring them against a religious yardstick the customer has a constitutional right to not share and a legal right to still accept the invitation of sale.

      • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

        “marine-court-martialed-for-refusing-to-remove-bible-verse” from foxnews.

        • Guest

          Hahaha they were courtmartialed for refusing to obey an order. Anyone in the military when they read the actual story realizes this servicemember is a passive aggressive jerk that engaged in activities to provoke and looked for legalisms to annoy people, much like the Pharisees.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Fyi, court-martialed for refusing to obey an order is equal to persecution or prosecution by the US govt/military. …Duh.!
            …….Most of the apostles were “court-martialed” n executed for refusing to obey an order from the Roman govt to worship the Emperor as their God.

          • Guest

            For disobeying a lawful order. No command to worship anything was asked. Again, you speak without understanding and there is nothing I can do for you, no more pearls for you.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            U r not casting pearls, but dirt or unclean stuffs.

  • Patrick Van Der Ven

    The problem with the verses of Paul is the Greek malakos has been falsely translated to homosexual. When in actuality it should read as weak and soft. Often it means weak willed. if we apply malakos universally in the NT we will have absurd readings of the NT . “The fabric was expensive and homosexual”. Where malakos does deal with same sex behaviour it is with pederasty which is form of paedophilia. For example a slave owner having sex with a young boy which equates to rape. Not until 1946 was word translated as homosexual at all, but in Lutheran bibles it was translated as masturbators. When read arsenkoites which means as was read to mean during the 1st century AD as a form of cultic male prostitution we see Paul is not condemning same sex consensual same sex behaviour rather the abusive form of sex of the Greco-Roman world at the time. See contemporaries of Paul such as Philo and their use of the word as well.

    • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

      1) You’re a liar, as always.

      2) If you’re correct (which you’re not), you oughta be counter-protesting and defending every minister who gets charged with a crime over quoting the Bible on homosexuality — since (according to you) it’s a false charge, due to the Bible not condemning it.

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        Prove me a liar. What have i said that was false? I can hear crickets now you fraud.

      • Guest

        Crime? This man was just told he had violated policy and wasn’t allowed to volunteer for a task that had nothing to do with his actual salaried job.

    • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

      What about the word “sodomy” at 1COR.6:9-11.?

      • Michael C

        Which translation of that verse uses the word “sodomy?”

        There were no Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew words that used the root word “Sodom” to describe homosexuality.

        The word “sodomy” is not a biblical word in that nothing like it exists in the original texts.

        • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

          Sodom —> Sodomy.

          You know blood, sperm, and fecal matter don’t mix, Mike. You’re an intellectual and a wordsmith, but you’re not talented enough to spin homosexual practice into a positive.

          • Paige Turner

            The sin of Sodom was radical inhospitality not the sexualised version that you are talking about. Your behaviour on this forum is radially inhospitable.

            There was no mention of homosexuality. The word did not exist until 1946.

            This has been interpreted and translated and is not accurate.

          • Reason2012

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
            Jude 1:7

            The angels were sent there to destroy them for fornication and going after strange flesh (men having_sex with men and/or women having_sex with women).

            In the end it’s God we’ll have to convince. Let’s not throw away eternal life to live for a lie in this temporary life here.

          • Guest

            Yes, the Talmud talks about men having sex with other men’s wives, and the other-flesh is a term no Greek speaker would use to refer to sex with of a person with another person regardless of sex.

            The book of Jude refers heavily to the Enoch, a story about the Watchers, the angels God sent to earth who became enamored with earthly women. The reference to strange flesh is to that, sex with angels which the women of Sodom supposedly engaged in.

          • Reason2012

            You have yet to back up a word of what you say and the Bible says otherwise.

          • Guest

            No, the bible doesn’t say what you say it says – there is a difference.

            I can assume you have read the Babylonian Talmud, the oldest collection of such writings, and know what the rabbis said about Sodom. If you haven’t I can wait or post the relevant passages here if you want although contenting yourself that it never refers to homosexuality really means you need to read it yourself to confirm its absence.

            And everyone knows that Jude refers both to the Book of Enoch and to the Assumption of Moses covered in any bible study of Jude. And while no copy of the Assumption survives the Book of Enoch does.

            And that the word ‘other flesh’ refers to people having sex with something other than human is just the way the word was used. Only writers after Jude using the term erroneously as it did replicated your assumption.

          • Paige Turner

            Radial inhospitality.
            Quoting the mistranslated text does not make it true.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            I have answered you on Jude1: 7 and still you persist in your lie.

          • Michael C

            I was just stating a fact.

          • http://biblewordstudy.org Adam in Christ

            Me, too.

          • Guest

            Again, you do know that most gay men don’t engage in that activity as don’t lesbians, but 20% of heterosexual men do with their women.

            Your hypocrisy is showing.

        • Patrick Van Der Ven

          You are absolutely correct. What else can I say, but you know that already.

        • Reason2012

          Completely false.

          First of all we do not have the original texts – in your rush to make a point you’ve already shown you are making things up as you go along.

          The oldest copies of the original manuscripts do in fact use a Greek word that means ‘sodomite’.

          1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ”Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [men who willingly take on the part of a “woman” with another man], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [s odomites], (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

          Abusers of themselves with mankind is translated from the Greek word arsenokoitēs, which means_sodomite.

          1 Timothy 1:9-10 ”Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For_whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind [s odomites], for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”

          “them that defile themselves with mankind” is translated from the same Greek word.

          And even in Romans it points out how men having_sex with other men is an abomination.

          Romans 1:26-27 ”For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their_lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

          In the end, it doesn’t matter how many people we fool into believing God is ok with homosexual behavior, it’s God we’re going to have to ‘fool’, and we have only to ask ourselves how we think that will go.

          • Michael C

            If you want to argue with me, please keep it related to what I’ve actually said.

            Here’s the one related argument you’ve made;

            First of all we do not have the original texts

            Thank you for the correction. My above comment has been edited to correct my mistake in word choice.

          • Guest

            Referring to male adultery and the term you are referring to as ‘effeminate’ is really male prostitution – there are letters about woman wondering if they should hire them for parties. Again, Paul is talking about all the ‘it doesn’t count’ marital fidelity exceptions that Romans accepted as part of their culture – sex with someone you hire or lower social status were considered permissible even to married folks. Arsenokoitēs is talking about adultery with a male by a male (Romans really didn’t care what women did with women).

          • Reason2012

            Arsenokoitēs is talking about men having_sex with men in any venue. And the entire city was destroyed over it.
            And since two men is not a marriage, it’s also fornication 100% of the time as well.

          • Guest

            No, no city was destroyed because of same sex activity – that’s a devilish deceit. The rabbis had discussed the conditions and ways of Sodom for over a thousand years – they never saw that.

            And Christians can marry regardless of ‘male or female’, married Christians keep the New Covenant sealed in Christ’s blood just fine whatever the ‘male or female’ of their spouse.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Sodomites has always referred to temple male prostitutes. Obviously you are more biblically challenged than I thought.

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        The word Qadesh in Hebrew which means Cultic male prostitute.

        • Michael C

          Just as the word “qedeshah” doesn’t mean “heterosexual woman.”

          • Carlos M

            What seminary is your degree from?

          • Michael C

            If I’ve erred, please correct me in my mistakes.

            I really do appreciate learning.

          • Carlos M

            If you say you are an expert in the Hebrew language, I won’t question your word.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Michael you know you have not erred, why are you entertaining this rabble?

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            LOL what Christian spirit do you have, calling people sh*t, saying they have AIDS and calling them paedophiles. What does the bible say? You shall know them by their fruit. You’re fruit is rotten to the core.

        • AndrewDowling

          Your ignorance is laughable.
          The previous post referred to 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
          1 Corinthians was written in GREEK, not HEBREW.
          You don’t even know the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. You don’t know the difference between Greek and Hebrew.

          Awesome ignorance. Homosexual blogs are not a good source for information about the Bible.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Thanks for a showing your inability to follow a conversation. This is my original post in the thread “The problem with the verses of Paul is the Greek malakos has been
            falsely translated to homosexual. When in actuality it should read as
            weak and soft. Often it means weak willed. if we apply malakos
            universally in the NT we will have absurd readings of the NT . “The
            fabric was expensive and homosexual”. Where malakos does deal with same
            sex behaviour it is with pederasty which is form of paedophilia. For
            example a slave owner having sex with a young boy which equates to rape.
            Not until 1946 was word translated as homosexual at all in English,
            but in Lutheran bibles it was translated as masturbators. When read
            with arsenkoites which meant during the 1st century AD as a form of
            cultic male prostitution we see Paul is not condemning same sex
            consensual same sex behaviour rather the abusive form of sex of the
            Greco-Roman world at the time. See contemporaries of Paul such as
            Philo and their use of the word as well. Philo directly attributes it
            to qadesh the Hebrew for cultic temple prostitution”. May I say your comprehension is atrocious.

      • Guest

        Hmmmm, there is no word ‘sodomy’ in the bible. 1 Corinthians was ‘plugging the holes’ of marital fidelity exceptions that Roman culture allowed and since there was no single word that clearly covered that Paul had to list them all; no fornication (sex without being married), no adultery – with men or women, no prostitution (considered different than adultery to Romans) – with men or women.

        The word ‘sodomy’ is a coined english word that misrepresents the ‘adultery male’ term.

  • Josey

    2 Timothy 4;3,4 For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires.
    So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

  • Diaris

    The New Testament is what it is. Amazing how so many have been fooled into thinking that the passages concerning sexual deviance have been “misinterpreted” for 2000 years.

    • Guest

      Once the gates of Hell were cast down the only power Satan had was to lie to Christians about Christianity, making it seem far more complicated and out of reach than it is, to lay the basis for future contention over things that don’t matter, and just general obfuscation.

      Illustrative point – the first time the idea that the story of Sodom referred to same sex activity appeared 60 years after the crucifixion. How had the rabbis discussing it for over a thousand years and the other writers in the Scriptures missed it? Its so obvious – to those that fall for Satan’s lies.

      • Samuel F Waddell

        Well if you will take the time to read and study the Bible, in depth, from which the Christian faith is derived, you will find that Repentance from sin is required by JESUS ( Luke 13:1-5) and other places: Matthew 5:30 “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.” Repentance would include all sexual immorality and perversion and murder of which abortion is a part, it is true that we are saved by grace through faith, we can come to Christ as we are, but with repentant hearts, but He will change and transform by the power of the Holy Spirit. Theologically repentance, turning away from sinful practices, to JESUS and is part of true faith. Repentance is not earning but turning from evil to Christ. This is very plain in Scripture but not practice enough in our day.

        • Guest

          And since I do repent every lost opportunity to love and forgive you will find I am quite repentant of my sins and always strive to do better.

          And I agree, people calling themselves Christian are more often void of the fruit of the Spirit and it is by those fruits we will know them. While no one will be condemned for being too generous, too humble, too forgiving, too loving, they will be for being too judgement, too merciless.

          May we all repent our sins and strive to do as Christ commanded.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Yr problem is, u seldom repent bc u r ignorant or do not know what sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking really are, bc u reject most of God’s/ /Moses Law.
            …….The Episcopalians even falsely think that LGBTQism r not sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking, so they even hv gay bishops = Church of Satan.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            ROM.7: = 7 What shall we say then? Is
            the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin
            except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless
            the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

          • Guest

            Odd you mention Romans 7:7 and not 7:6
            but now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.

            Again, you are refusing to leave the yoke of the Old Law, and your fate is your choice. May God have mercy upon you.

            I repent not loving and forgiving as well as I could frequently and strive to do better every day. And that you call those with the Spirit the Church of Satan just reminds us that not all who say ‘Lord Lord’ will be saved by Grace.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            ROM.7:6 refers to Christians not being justified for salvation by the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ Paul did not state that Christians r no longer under the yoke of the Law or do not hv to keep the Law, either fully(= by Jewish Christians) or partially(= by Gentile Christians).

            May God hv mercy upon u for rejecting all of Moses Law or Old Law n breaking the commandment/law/Word of God at ACTS.15:28-29.(cf: DEUT.28:15-16)
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            ROM.6: = 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

          • Guest

            Thank you, I am sure He will since He has said the Old Law is dead, and I have never been under the Old Covenant to begin with.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            On yr death, yr salvation will not be thru the Law, but thru faith in JC. But b4 yr death, u still r living under the Law, partially as a Gentile Christian.
            …….Even US Law forbid u from committing murder, stealing n perjury/lying, similar to Moses Law.

            Fyi, b4 the 1970s, US Law had also forbidden adultery n sodomy until the liberals of the Blue States began to abolish such laws in order to pander for the votes of the LGBTQs.

          • Guest

            And Christians disagree with you, people who are filled with the Spirit. So stop provoking and get into loving, you’re feel much better.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Men “loving” other men in order to sexually penetrate their anuses is an abomination. It’s very unlikely that such “loving” homosexual men r filled with the Spirit, more like filled with Shi’it.
            .
            .
            LEV.18: = 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

          • hytre64

            Mt 5:18-20 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

          • Guest

            Christianity 101 that at the moment of Christ’s sacrifice all sin was washed away, the Law was fulfilled at that moment and passed.

            again if that weren’t true we would be held to all of the old Law, as Jesus, Moses pre-New Covenant told us and James under the New Covenant told us.

          • hytre64

            Have Heaven and Earth passed away and I have not noticed? If not, then the Law and the Prophets have not been abolished.

            Jesus HAS paid for the sins of mankind, but we only get the benefit of that if we, personally, accept His Sacrifice, making Him both Lord and Savior of our lives.

            If we are not under the Law of Sin and Death – ought we to continue sinning? May it NEVER Be! (Rom 6:1) How can we who have died to sin, live in it any longer?

          • Guest

            AGain, Christianity 101. Jesus spoke but had to avoid outright heresy or he would be taken away. IF He had not fulfilled the Law it would have indeed lasted til the end of time – but He did.
            This is Sunday School stuff told to children and it always amazes me when people don’t know this.

          • hytre64

            There is this man named Paul… You might have heard of him, he used to be named Saul until Jesus got ahold of him. He wrote some pretty fine letters to Christian Churches. Let me give an example of one:

            Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified [separated from sin and to God], you were justified [to be declared righteous, as though sin were never an issue] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

            …Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies….

            Loving God, means that we know His character and what He expects of us. The LAW was a schoolmaster, set to teach us about God’s character, but He now writes His Law on our hearts. We cannot “earn” our way into heaven by keeping the LAW, but we ought not to grieve God by doing what He has clearly spoken as being Sin.

          • Guest

            Exactly! These things can’t be done and ‘love and forgive’ at the same time. And Paul very much was trying to plug all the ‘exceptions’ to sexual fidelity the Roman culture had – casual sex, hiring prostitutes – male or female, committing adultery – male or female. Not talking about married Christians who’s spouse may be ‘male or female’ since such differences are not important in the body of Christ.

            Note that it mentions so many other non-sexual things, things that people you see on the street do every day. Swindlers is really ‘oath breakers’ like Kim Davis who broke two oaths when she refused to keep them in her sworn duties as an elected official. Do you think she has repented? Is she barred from heaven if she doesn’t? (we will leave the fact she belongs to a church that doesn’t believe in the Trinity and thinks anyone baptized in more than just Jesus’s name isn’t really baptized at all for another day.)

            Married Christians can strive to keep the New Covenant just fine, don’t worry about that.

          • hytre64

            IMHO, the only reason people go to Hell now is because they have rejected the price paid for their sins. I believe that this comes under the category of “All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.” – Namely they have rejected God.

          • Guest

            I agree.

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            You know the magisterium of German, French, Swiss and Luxembourgian Catholic Church holds that gay marriage may hold a sacramental nature.

          • Guest

            I’m glad to hear that.

          • hytre64

            2 Tim 4:3 “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”

          • Patrick Van Der Ven

            Yes, I believe that text deals with the incorrect interpretation of born again Christianity”. Their itching ears wanting to hear, “once saved always saved”. the message of poverty and helping the poor and sick has been politicised to abusing. Jesus would have no part of your church.

          • hytre64

            Does Jesus want us to help the poor and Sick? Yes. Visit the prisoners? yes Comfort the grieving? Absolutely. And some churches do seem to have forgotten these things.

            Other churches seem to have forgotten some of the basics of Christianity 101. Things like Sin {what does God say is Sin and what does He say about Sin), Repentance (turning away from Sin), Redemption (What have you been redeemed from?) Lordship(having been bought with a price, you are not your own), Sanctification (Being set apart from sin and to God for His purposes) , Justification, etc.

            I have had it reported to me, that there are some churches where they won’t even say either the “Sin” or the “Repent”, as those words make the people in the church uncomfortable.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            There is a balance in GOD and CHRIST. There are scriptures that show us GOD’S JUDGMENT upon the unrepentant and THANK GOD there are those that show us that JESUS. HIMSELF died, in our place for our sins, He paid the price Himself for our forgiveness and salvation. He has told us that we must REPENT AND BELIEVE so we must (Luke 13:1-5). That means all of us. Today men want to give exception to certain popular sins, as homosexuality, but there are no exceptions. We must all repent and believe. We must confess that we have sinned and that our deed are sinful or we cannot be saved, and that goes for homosexuality as well as all other sins. JESUS told the woman caught in the act of adultery, ” Neither do I condemn you, go and leave you life of sin.” Now we know that none of us are perfect yet but we must obey CHRIST through the power of the Holy Sprit and turn away from our life of sin. We do not earn our salvation but we turn to JESUS and of course He is not in sin. If we fall then we confess, get up and turn away from the sin to follow JESUS. 1 JOHN 1:9. We must turn and surrender to HIS LORDSHIP and the FOLLOW Him AS His Disciple. JESUS LOVES us but that has never been in doubt. The question is do we love Him?

          • Guest

            Samuel, but what sin are the ‘unrepentant’ unrepentant of? Sin is a violation of the God’s commandments, if we were commanded to do nothing there would be no sin. And what are Christians commanded to do? Love and forgive, all violations of the commandments have their roots in these two failures. To help narrow what that means down, we are told that the Fruit of the Spirit are without judgement, i.e. against them there is No law. We are also told that the Golden Rule, treating others as we ourselves would want to be treated is also, it is our continual failure in achieving these goals that defines the metric of what we are to repent.

            Sex is an interesting thing – we were told by Jesus there would be no ‘marry or marriage’ in the next world, that we would be like the ‘angels in heaven’ (note the qualifier not like ‘angels on earth’ since Genesis said that some angels had sexual desires when here and I bring this up to point out Scripture says exactly what it intents to say).

            So sex is an ‘of this world thing’ only, like what holidays to celebrate, what meats to eat, how many fibers we should have in our clothes so why all the rules for those who are already neither ‘male nor female’ and live in this world and walk in the next?

            Because having sex with a person without there being love is a betrayal of God, them, and ourselves and the first things we were told we should hold most important and guide our lives. We are told about sex so often because it is so easy to abuse, it can become idolatry so very easily, putting it before everyone and set it against all the commandments that Christians have been given.

            But because it is an ‘of this world thing’ we, as apostles of Christ, are allowed to ‘bind and loosen’ within the scope of those commandments, particularly because as on earth – no matter what we do sexually, it will change nothing in heaven for there is no ‘marry or marriage’ in heaven.

            It isn’t who we love sexually, its why and how we love that will set it against the commandments. Fornication without love – as idolatry. Adultery – idolatry and betrayal. With those who are our family? A confusion and a betrayal. But avoiding all these just because they are the same sex? Doesn’t violate the commandments necessarily.

            Again, the devil realized he could play this as a division between Christians, that’s why the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was altered from the story of society-mandated cruelty and hate towards the poor, the needed, and the stranger and even themselves ultimately to the silly notion that all the men in a city were into the ‘gah’ sex with total strangers. That the rabbis discussed these passages in the Talmud for hundreds upon hundreds of years and never mentioned that and then years after the crucifixion it appears in Jewish writing for the first time. Same with the other example Judges where the mob that rapes a woman to death and people are saying the mob wanted to have sex with the man even though the concern of the rabbis was why the man would do such a cruel thing as shove his concubine out the door in the first place turning it into a discussion of spousal abuse. That these stories were viewed so very differently before and after the rout of Hell would hopefully give any thinking person pause – why is the Devil so keen on making Christians hate male homosexuals so much?

            Its a way to divide, people love to judge and lots of people love to judge gays – mercy trumps judgement so the devil really really likes it when he can get people to judge others as it is almost impossible to do that and avoid sin.

            But many have made a commitment to judging on this issue, but fortunately not all Christians do. My church believes that obsessing about it is a devilish distraction from the commandments God gave us, yes none of us love and forgive perfectly but that is why as long as we try, as long as we continually try and repent all our missed opportunities to do so God has promised His undeserved Gift of Grace will wash us clean and He will carry us the rest of the way.

            Fear not, for we have been given tidings of great joy. May God have mercy upon us all.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Romans 6:1-11New International Version – UK (NIVUK)

            Dead to sin, alive in Christ

            6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

            5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin – 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

            Comments: Sex according to Jesus and N.T. Scripture is only to be between one man and one woman in Holy matrimony. Matthew 19:5. So that rules out possibly 90% of all the sex that is going on in most society today. Christians, before salvation we were lost in sin, but after being born again we do not have an excuse to continue in such sins. Repentance also means removing ourselves from temptation and situations that cause us to fall into sin. Confessing them to God and to each other and getting prayer that we might rise above them. The Christian is to live a sanctified and holy life:
            1 Thessalonians 4:3-7New International Version:
            3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honourable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
            Hebrews 13:4New International Version
            4 Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
            Titus 2:11-14New International Version
            11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope – the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

            Comments: we see in these verses that God is calling the believer to live a holy life and our sexuality is a huge part of that. Of course if this is overlooked and not taught in churches, as is in many cases today, and people may continue in their sins and face very bad consequenses. That is unless that study the Scripture themselves and see the truth about sanctification. Which comes after salvation and is a work of God’s grace which we must cooperate with. We cannot work our way to God, who is Holy, Holy, Holy but we must come to Him by His grace thorough faith. However afterwards we are created in Christ to do good works and to be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. We must have faith to believe that these two powerful factors, The Holy Spirit, who is God in us, and the Word of God transform a sinner into a new creation after conversion. We may not be perfect yet but we are changed and really have no excuse, especially after we have grown in Christ to live in sexual immorality, fornication, porn, adultery, sodomy, homosexuality etc. or other willful sins for that matter. Of course Jesus will always be dealing with certain areas of sin in our lives, even that we do not know or see but to continue in a sinful lifestyle after we come to faith is not really taught in Scripture and is not truly loving Christ or others and therefore it is not the real Christian faith to imply to people that it is ok.

          • Guest

            And since for those of us in the body of Christ there is no ‘male nor female’ married Christians can keep the new covenant just fine regardless of the sex of their spouse. We know that several of the martyrs lumped under Saint Valentine were killed because they were marrying people of different social classes proscribed by Roman law and used the same passage to justify their actions (heading off the odd complaints that somehow Galatians isn’t about this world, or that time, or only spiritual, or other such obfuscations)

            Again, sex is a thing of this world, it is controlled because of its spiritual dimension not a particular physical act.

            But we differ in our interpretation, that’s fine. I consider it like what holidays to celebrate and what meats to eat. My brother didn’t eat ham or shrimp at Easter dinner, I did – I don’t think either act, performed or not, is a barrier to salvation.

            You feel you need to repent having a same sex spouse, do so – I do not and am more than willing to let the Lord decide.

          • hytre64

            I pray that you come to that knowledge *before* you arrive at His judgement seat. God has already written very clearly about those who are headed to the Lake of Fire, and it grieves my Lord that some people choose their sin and their “lifestyle” over spending eternity with Him.

          • Guest

            And I pray the same for you because the clearest warnings about sin we have are ones like James:

            for judgment [will be] without mercy to him that has shewn no mercy. Mercy glories over judgment.

            A judgmental lifestyle is a ticket to Hell it would seem, take care.

          • hytre64

            I have cast no Judgement on you, judgement is different than warning a person that such-and-such an action IS a sin – especially if that person claims to be a brother in Christ.

            Ezekiel 3:18-19 “When I (The Lord) say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.”

          • Guest

            Which is why I warned you. And if you cast no judgment on me, then we are at peace. I sincerely think you are wrong and how God will deal with such wickedness I do not know but I do hope He will show you as much mercy as you shows others.

          • hytre64

            I have done as scripture & the Spirit prompted me. Your blood (see scripture quote above) is not on my hands.

          • Guest

            And neither yours on mine and you do realize I warned you first 😉

            My the Spirit find you and bless you and may God give His love and mercy upon you.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Your answer sound very Knostic. it is very important who we have sex with in the eyes of God. It must only be our wife if we are male and husband if we are female. Jesus stated that in the beginning God made them male and female and for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. Matthew 19:4- and Mark 10:6. These are the verses from God’s Word that got the Priest or Vicar in trouble: 1 Corinthians 6:9 “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men.10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. The point is we are changed, Transformed, into new a creation and we do not continue in these sins. ” Homosexuality is listed as one of the sexual sins and is called an abomination in the Old Testament. Leviticus 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. We read about homosexuality being evil in Romans chapter one and it even mentions women with women. There are at least 10 verse referring to homosexual sex as a sin, either directly or indirectly, in Scripture. Starting with the destruction n of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 and most are in the New Testament. Of course some today try to explain theses verses away but it is very plain. Of course homosexual sex is not the only sexual sin and the others are just as destructive if we do not repent of them. This is at the problem in the west when a society promotes sexual sin then it gets worse and worse. What will be the next sin that is made ok and politically correct by western society? It is sad and I certainly do not wish any one to be judged or lost but the reality is that many will. I try to bring them to repentance an faith and pray that they will come and some do but most are not interested and do not wish to give up their pleasure of sin for a season! Very sad. It is so very sad to me.

          • Guest

            Yes, He did went talking to men under the Old Covenant before the New Covenant – those who walk in the body of Christ are neither male nor female, Christians can marry the same.

            And Paul wasn’t talking about married couples.

            And Leviticus was again for people under the Old Covenant, not the New.

            Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of that society’s attitudes towards poor travelers and those that aided them:

            some bits from the Babylonian Talmud Tractate Sanhedrin regarding the sins of Sodom:

            They said: Since there come forth bread out of [our] earth, and it has the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land,
            Now, they had beds upon which travellers slept. If he [the guest] was too long, they shortened him [by lopping off his feet]; if too short, they stretched him out.

            If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar, upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given him. When he died, each came and took back his.

            A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, [hiding it] in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great. leading us to Genesis 18:20

            The silly notion it was about a mob of every man in town asking to have sex with the travelers is a devilish deceit that didn’t show up until after the crucifixion and the rout of Hell – sowing lies is all the Devil has left. The mob asked for the travelers to come out so they could meet them, i.e. know them, just as mobs with the intent of harm have asked people leave their places of safety through out time. Lot, with the memory of what had happened recently to the maiden freshly in mind knew this was a ruse and that once they saw he had helped the travelers against city policy he and they would be set upon and possibly killed. The hebrew word ‘yada’ means ‘to know’ and only rarely was used as a euphemisms for heterosexual intercourse, never anything else. It it meant sex between men Moses could have just said ‘If a man knows a man as he knows a woman’ but he didn’t because it doesn’t.

            Again, fretting about male or female is pointless to a Christian.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            No male or female, In Christ, is not referring to having sex or marriage but our salvation in Christ. There is no way to justify same sex relations by Scripture. Please read the Word of God for what it says and stop listening to people who twist and pervert it for their own benefit. This is the last post I will write. Beware of false teachers. We are saved by grace through faith but Gods’ Grace changes and transforms us eventually into the image of Christ and Christ is not involved in sexual immorality of perversion.

          • Guest

            Since Galatians was used to justify marrying Christians by the martyrs I am confident your trying to limit what the simple direct statement means is wrong.

            I do beware of false teachers – anyone who says that Sodom was destroyed because of gay sex is among them.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            When we study Scripture we cannot put on our modern glasses and see it though our politically correct society. We must know what it meant to the people then and then apply it to now knowing that CHRIST is the same yesterday, today and forever Hebrews 13:8. But it is very difficult to convince and person when they involved in things that they do not wish to give up to God. Like the rich young ruler for instance and his wealth. Anything else can also be an idol including immoral sex. Or anything that we put ahead of God’s will and plan and Word. We all have to come to a place of giving up our own way, surrendering completely to Jesus. He has to bring us there. Faith in greek, the word “Pitis” means to truth fully or completely. Like trusting a bridge enough to walk on it to the other side. It must be all of our aim to trust Christ this way and give up our own ideas and modern opinions and such. I hope and pray that you have a blessed day that causes you to grow closer to JESUS and understand Him better. I hope and pray that for myself as well.

          • Guest

            and I agree. Scripture is eternal, the ancient rabbis knew why Sodom fell as did Jesus when he made reference to it if his apostles were treated badly by a town. it wasn’t because of sex.

            that so many repeat lies about it show just how far from the Truth some in the church has drifted and how many turn a blind eye and deaf ear to it.

            But none of us is perfect, all depend on God’s grace for salvation. But it does confirm that mercy glories judgement and none before the throne will be told they were too merciful.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Repentance is part of the True Christian faith. JESUS said He came to call sinners to repentance. In order to repent we must acknowledge that we are a sinner, lost and deserving punishment, we should have Godly sorrow for our sins, confessing them, call on JESUS to forgive and change them in their hearts. Then turn away from them and leave the lifestyle of sin. These things must be truly from the heart with a desire to change or to be changed by the power of CHRIST. This does not in any way negate mercy. For if there was no mercy then there would be given no place for us to repent. The problem that we face today, which we did not see so much when I was younger, is the refusal to accept or admit that sexual sins and sexual perversion is a sin. This is a direct rebellion against God’s Word and His Truth for He states plainly that they are. So a person cannot repent until the first admit their sin. If they do not repent they will perish eternally as JESUS said in Luke 13:1-5. So they themselves have disqualified themselves from God’s mercy but rebelling against His truth. 25 years ago we didn’t need to mention homosexuality because most everyone knew that it was a sin. But now because of the LGBT activist they have convinced people who do not read the Bible that they are not living in sin. This is why theses issues must be addressed in our day. God’s Truth does not change with the times. We cannot put man’s opinion above the Word of God. A god who only does as we say and please is an idol of our own making!

          • Guest

            Sam, repentance of sins is my job, I can call someone to repent theirs but if they do or don’t my obligation to love and forgive them perfectly remains the same.

            And that is what sin is under the New Covenant, failing to perfectly love and forgive. as much as you would like to think that means ‘not being gay’ you are wrong, gay people can do as God has asked as well as anyone else whether you can see it or not.

            And yes Christians can disagree on this, just as Paul talked about ancient bickering about what holidays to celebrate, what meats to eat and sects like the infamous Kim Davis that don’t believe in the Trinity and think anyone baptized in its name isn’t really baptized at all. As bizarre as someone else might think these beliefs are they are not a barrier to salvation sin they have nothing to do with what God has tasked us – love and forgive as we spread God’s promise of salvation and love to those who repent their sins and accept Christ’s undeserved gift of His Grace.

            And that is the metric we need to remember, that is what is important. people were being saved before a single line of the New Testament was penned, it is an aid to Salvation, not a requirement. Accepting the Spirit saves us, letting it change us – God saves us and focusing on doctrinal differences in this world that will be gone in the next is a devilish distract.

            Knock and the door will be opened, that the path to salvation starts so easily is the truth the devil doesn’t want us to know or share.

            And this is far, far a field from this story and I apologize for doing so. May God bless and forgive all who come to Him whether I understand His reasons for doing so or not.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            Any one can be saved. it is by grace through faith but grace changes us and teaches us to not return to our pigpen of sin. All must repent and trust CHRIST fully. Of course God is patient with the new believer but, in time, He wants to see the fruit of repentance and love and obedience. Sin is the opposite of these. Jesus said that the tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He said that we cannot serve two masters and He meant this for more than money, but money is and was one of the greatest idols. The blood of Jesus covers and changes those who walk with Him in the light.” If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.” 1 John i:6. We cannot willfully continue in or sins. It is true that we must learn to love and forgive but we must also turn away from sexual sin as well. It is not the will of our FATHER. We cannot say that because we are born sinners we will be ok. JESUS has provided the way for us to be saved and transformed. If we support people in an unrepentant and sinful lifestyle then we do not love them because we are helping them to believe a lie. The lie that we can continue willfully in our sins without repentance when JESUS SAID THAT WE CANNOT. Would you tell a pedphile that he can continue in his deeds? I think not. Would you tell a murderer that he can? No. But you seem to make an allowance for people who want to continue to have sex with people of their same sex. It is obvious that God made sex to bring children into the world and not just for pleasure though it is pleasurable. He still has put rules as to how we must live sexually and they are in His Word plainly. Adulterers cannot continue, thieves cannot, we cannot continue in willful sin because the Holy Spirit is within us and HE is Holy and will not allow us to live that way. If we do then something is wrong with our salvation. We sin, at time, but not because we just go out and plan to do so and refuse to repent no matter what God has said. We all must confess ours sins to God and anyone another and pray for one another that we may be healed. Sanctification is part of God’s plan of salvation and that is producing in us the character of Christ. We are told that we must put to death the deeds of the flesh. This is a work of God’s grace that we cooperate with. You are preaching a false message if you tell homosexuals that they are the one exception to the rule. Or to make any sinner think that he can just go on in his wickedness and not suffer the consequences because we will reap what we sow. We have got to let JESUS change the crop to the fruit of the Spirit and not the works of the flesh.

          • Guest

            Lots of words, I agree. We can all be saved, even gay people – there is no sexual orientation of any kind in heaven, we will all be as brothers and sisters. And since it is misinterpretation that makes some Christians think gays can’t be saved, I will just let you think what you will and pray you don’t hurt too many or drive them away from God with your misinterpretation. What you think is ‘obvious’ I think is prideful assumption especially in light that if God wanted people of a particular sex to be a particular way He could have done so, but he didn’t. He put the full potential of male and female in everyone and caused us to develop in ways that a person could end up with a wonderful mix of all those possibilities and potentials.

            I’m more than happy to take Him at his Word and not fret about it, I have far more important tasks He has actually given me to do.

          • hytre64

            I think that some of the confusion comes in in what is meant by “gay”/ Does it mean those who suffer from Same-Sex-Attraction (SSA), or those who live an unrepentant homosexual life?

            All of us are descendants of fallen Adam and have a nature that is attracted to sin (of whatever form). The questions are (A) have we accepted Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, accepting the price that He paid for our sins and (B) have we repented/turned away from our sins, or do we continue on in them, ignoring the horrific price that Jesus paid to redeem us from them.

            I would question if anyone who doesn’t repent of their ongoing, sinful lifestyle (whatever the variety of sin – adultery, theft, homosexual sex, idolitry, etc) has been saved.

          • Guest

            And so the only thing we disagree on is if being gay is a sin. Since I know that sin is whenever we fall short of what God has asked us, and for those under the New Covenant that is failing to love and forgive, AND I see no conflict between the gender of a spouse and the ability to complete these tasks we will just have to disagree.

            What I do know is no one is going to be sexually attracted to anyone in the next world so I won’t know what their sexual orientation was in this was anyway.

          • hytre64

            Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
            before you were born I dedicated you,
            a prophet to the nations I appointed you. – Jeremiah 1:5

          • Guest

            Indeed. Amen.

        • darh477

          Homosexuals do not read the Bible, much less study it. They pick up some talking points from gay blogs, and the information is always wrong.. They regard the Bible as something radioactive, they wouldn’t dream of even touching one. Discussing the Bible with someone who has never even held one in his hand is a total waste of time.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Uhm, I actually know personally of two homosexual households who raise their children religious. All children go to a christian school and are not bullied in any way for having parents who are homosexual. But again I think that has to do because of the fact that we here in the Netherlands believe in live and let live.

          • Stogiebear

            Lesbians should never be allowed to be near a child. Their domestic abuse rates are much higher than those for normal humans, ditto for gay men. Exposing a child to violence, drug abuse, and promiscuity is cruel and immoral.

          • Paige Turner

            Prove it.

          • hytre64

            There is a difference between being “Religious” and having a personal relationship with Jesus.

            I have known Catholics who were extremely “Religious”… They went to Mass a couple of times per week, confession once a week, lit candles to Mary and prayed the Rosary, yet there was no evidence of the Life of God in them. There was no Love, no Joy, no Peace, no Patience, no Kindness, no Goodness, nor Self-control. Religion is man’s attempt to appease and reach God. It won’t work.

            Christianity, otoh, is supposed to be personal relationship with Jesus. This is God reaching down to man.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Oh yeah you’re right. How can I forget it. When you’re homosexual you can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus, you’re just pretending. Silly me, I forgot.

          • hytre64

            Please put on your glasses and re-read my post. I was specifically pointing out that there is a difference between being “Religious” and having a personal relationship with Jesus.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            And you don’t get sarcasm. When someone of us say we know homosexuals who are religious, you all be like well what you said. Meaning you don’t believe it.

          • hytre64

            I have pointed out in other posts that I have known people who are “Religious” but lack any sign that they have the life of God. The Bible says of them “People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

          • Samuel F Waddell

            You had better read and study the Word of Almighty God and first surrender you life to JESUS CHRIST if you wish to make it into heaven forever and miss eternal hell.

          • rubellapox2

            Will you and people like you who discriminate be there? Then I think I’ll pass…

          • hytre64

            Passing on Heaven will leave only one other destination – a place where I would want *no* individual to go.

            I have heard some of my worldly acquaintances joke about partying in Hell – lots of booze, drugs & hookers. It won’t be that way. It is described as “Outer Darkness” – you won’t be seeing anything. You will hear others (There will be wailing and nashing of teeth), You will be in Eternal and unending Torment.

            I beg of you to reconsider, ask Jesus into your Life as your Lord and Savior, and ask Him to point out to you anything that is displeasing to Him.

      • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

        U said: …”Once the gates of Hell were cast down the only power Satan had was to lie to Christians about Christianity, making salvation seem far more
        complicated and out of reach than it is, to lay the basis for future contention over things that don’t matter like homosexuality and abortion, and just general obfuscation.”
        .
        My reply: ……. That’s a lie of Satan, ie that unrepentant homosexuals, abortionists, murderers, adulterers, thieves, perjurers/liars n other sinners/evildoers/law-breakers do not matter wrt salvation.
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _
        .
        REV.22: (NKJV) = Jesus Testifies to the Churches

        12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[f]

        14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

        15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

        • Guest

          Since you only know how to thump and have no understanding of Scripture I will leave you now. Again, may God have mercy on your soul for you know not what you do.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Ha ha.! ……. A homosexual activist trying to pass judgment on a heterosexual Christian.
            …….U r a loser, either in this age or the age to come. There will be a day of reckoning, either b4 u die or after u die.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
            Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
            nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

          • Guest

            Is a Christian a Christian when they are devoid of Spirit? These are the questions we must ask ourselves.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            GAL.5: = Walking in the Spirit

            16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

            19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

            22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control.
            Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

          • Guest

            So a cut and paste of things you don’t understand? Why bother?

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Fyi, God purposely causes normal persons to become homosexuals even though He knew that they were heterosexuals from their birth to puberty bc they had purposely rejected Him n rebelled against His Law(= rebelled against their parents, teachers, etc), even though they knew of God’s existence from observing the wonders of the world n Mother-nature.(ROM.1:18-32)
            …….This curse is according to God’s Law of ni4ni.

          • Guest

            I yes, sorry I don’t think you have any insight into the reasons why God does what He does, for you were not there when He laid the foundations of the world and you show no insight into His Covenant with His children.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            ROM.1: = 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and
            receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

          • rubellapox2

            Lol, so God made us gay so that he could destroy us later? Lol what simple childlike reasoning….you make God sound like a psycho…

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            1COR,5: (NKJV) = 4 In
            the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together,
            along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

          • hytre64

            Is a Christian a Christian when they fail to hear the voice of the Spirit, who is the One who Convicts concerning Sin, Righteousness and Judgement?

            Is a Christian mature if they fail to read and understand God’s Word, but instead gather unto themselves preachers who are willing to tickle their ears to gain their money?

          • Guest

            You have just asked my question in a different form. There are so many that show no fruit of the Spirit, who do not put love and forgiveness above all, and who search the scriptures to justify acting as God’s police rather than his emissaries. When the evangelical research Barna Group asked ‘Are Christians more like Jesus or more like the Pharisees?” they found the majority of US Christians are more like the Pharisee in thought and deed, no doubt having their ears tickled by churches and pastors that lost their connection to the Spirit long ago.

        • Guest

          hmm discus is throwing up very old messages to me

      • Samuel F Waddell

        Here are the words of Jude the brother of CHRIST which show us that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of sexual perversion and other sins:

        JUDE1:4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a licence for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

        5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling – these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
        This is God’s Word on the matter and not a modern opinion.

        • Guest

          See? Jude talks about sexual immorality and the ancient rabbis talked of the heterosexual sins of the residents of Sodom, it talks of going for ‘other-flesh’ which means inhuman flesh and is talking about the angels sent earth who had relations with terrestrial women talked about in the book of Enoch mentioned in Jude just as the lost work The Assumption of Moses is mentioned.

          These are facts, we have the Talmud discussions that talk of the sexual sins of Sodom, no speaker of Greek would use the term ‘other flesh’ when talking about people no matter their sexes. These are ‘of this world’ facts confirmed by Spirit-guided righteous judgement.

          And that is why my sect eschews judgement because it is far too easy for imperfect beings to get it wrong and James warmed us that those who judge with out mercy will be judged without mercy and that mercy must include the humility to admit I am not God, I can be wrong, and no one should suffer because of my pride in my imperfect understanding.

          I ask Are they living? Are they forgiving? Have the accepted? Christ? If so their salvation is in the Lord’s hands now that is the end of my righteous judgement. I am merely the harvester of the crop, not its planter, or owner – that is God.

    • mrpoohead

      I think what you will read is an over-whelming instruction on social responsibility and being a “nice and forgiving” person. How come that is largely ignored, but a few lines that may or may not support someone’s own agenda (abortion/homosexuality) are more important. The extreme of Islam does this and it is jumped on as being the only thing that Muslim’s are about, when the majority merely want a good life, work, health and education for their kids. Seems a tad short-sighted and moronic to me. Hands up if you don’t care what the neighbours are, as long as they lend you their lawn-mower when yours is broken, sit out front, have a chat and share a beer and put out the trash when you are away. Whether they are gay, different religion really doesn’t concern me – gun-toting lunatics prepared to defend incest and bigotry I can do without. Still that’s probably just West Virginia and Maine.

  • mrpoohead

    You can always rely on Christian do-gooders to be as far removed from Christianity as one could possibly be – for this I had to remove my kids from Scripture classes at school. They weren’t Christians they were political bigots with a political agenda. Think Communism had one thing right – get rid of religions.

    • Carlos M

      The Communists created utopias on earth, that’s why millions of people immigrated from the US to Cuba and the Soviet Union and other Communist nations. They even had to build a wall separating East Germany from West Germany, because all the West Germans were trying to enter the paradise of East Germany. The US with all its Christians is a horrid place, that is why no one is immigrating here, they are all leaving by the millions every day. It’s obvious if you look at the numbers that no one wants to come to America.

      • mrpoohead

        Reality is – not that many ran from Communist nations, bizarrely. Or, Florida would have been unbalanced and tipped into the sea by the weight of them and the distance ain’t that far.

        Cuba may have been fine on it’s own if it hadn’t been economically strangled by the US – sanctions on a nation of 11 million people. Why bother, what were they going to do? Sell you cigars?

        Amusingly I know a lot of “moneyed” American’s now living in NZ and Australia – dual citizenship is now allowed by the US. They are there for a better life for their children, a national health service and educational standards that are much higher. That coupled with the fact that you can walk through the worst suburb quite safely. Freedom!

        Equally; per capita more immigrants choose other Western nations than the US – fact!

      • Patrick Van Der Ven

        In reality don’t you want to build a wall between Mexico and the US?

      • Jolanda Tiellemans

        People like you make it a horrid place.

  • Gena B

    If a group of sex offenders are sitting and listening to a sermon by force I could understand the complaint. “Men love darkness rather than the light” but it’s the UK..and they have been discriminating against Christians pretty hard for a while now. Try preaching anything on a street corner in the UK and you will get arrested for hate speech.