Ohio Ballot Proposal Would Prosecute Abortion as Aggravated Murder

newborn pdCOLUMBUS, Ohio — A proposal to amend the Ohio Constitution and classify the performance of an abortion as an act of aggravated murder has been presented to the state attorney general—a first step in the process of placing issues on the November ballot.

“No person shall perform, procure or attempt to perform an abortion,” the proposed text reads. “Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated murder and shall be punished in accordance with the penalties for that crime …”

It notes that the measure would not apply to contraception, unfertilized eggs or IVF procedures.

The ballot proposal was submitted by Laura Burton of Cleveland, Anthony Dipane of Monroe Falls, and Dustin Paulson of Strasburg, who, according to reports, are not connected with any organized pro-life groups.

“We saw that since Roe v. Wade no one had proposed a ballot issue saying you can’t murder babies,” Dipane told the Columbus Dispatch.

The three used fellow volunteers to help collect the required 1,000 petition signatures for advancement.

Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine is now reviewing the text to ensure that its description is accurate, and if so, the effort will move to Secretary of State Jon Husted, who will ensure that the proposal has enough valid signatures to meet the requirement. The Ohio Ballot Board would then decide whether the issue is one constitutional amendment or if it should be placed on the ballot as several issues.

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The petitioners would, at such point, be required to gather nearly 306,000 signatures from registered voters who support the effort in order for it to be officially placed on the ballot.

NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio has already expressed opposition to the proposal, telling the Columbus Dispatch, “If passed, women and doctors would be imprisoned for any abortion, even one to save a woman’s life.”

It also asserted that “the language would block prescription birth control, emergency contraception, IUDs, and could impact access to in-vitro fertilization,” although the text of the amendment outlines that it would not apply to those aspects.

As previously reported, Oklahoma Sen. Joe Silk, R-Broken Bow, introduced a bill earlier this year that would have added killing an unborn child to existing murder statutes.

“No person shall perform or induce or attempt to perform or induce an abortion after conception,” it read. “A person commits murder in the first degree when that person performs an abortion as defined by Section 1-745.5 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes.”

The measure passed the Health and Human Services Committee, but was then stalled by Republican leadership who opined that the move was too “extreme.”

“I’ve had other senators come up and say this goes too far, and I say, ‘Do you think life begins at conception?’ and they say, ‘Absolutely.’ So, if you believe life begins at conception then it’s not too far,” Silk told reporters.

A separate bill introduced by Sen. Nathan Dahm, R-Broken Arrow, that would revoke the medical license of any physician who performs an abortion, passed both houses, but was vetoed by Gov. Mary Fallin.


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  • http://www.slowlyboiledfrog.com/ DavidHart-slowlyboiledfrog.com

    What exactly is the point of advancing unconstitutional legislation that a federal judge will enjoin within minutes? If you don’t like Roe v. Wade then a constitutional amendment is the correct route.

    • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

      The point is to wear them out.

      • Tangent002

        Good luck with that…

    • RWH

      I have seen numbers of people who were militantly “pro-life.” Then, something happened on a very personal level, and then they discovered that life is not about stark blacks and whites, and they modified their beliefs. The Zika baby situation is one such case. Lots of people are for law and order until something hits close to home, and then all of a sudden, they are willing to bend the rules because their particular situation doesn’t fit into such neat categories.

      • Kelly Samuelson

        Then they aren’t really militantly pro-life, are they? If they can’t stand firm in one belief they claim, I don’t know if I would be able to trust anything they say

        • RWH

          Again, I’ve seen many people make strident moral pronouncements regarding other people, but let a similar situation happen to them, they begin to realize how difficult and agonizing some decisions are hard to make. I don’t trust people who make black/white binary decisions and pass harsh judgments regarding people they don’t even know.

          • Kelly Samuelson

            Just in case you’re trying to insinuate that I’m one of those people, I’ll let you know I’ve been placed in a difficult decision similar to that. I was told with my first child that during my ultrasound they found a cyst in his brain that is associated with Down Syndrome and he would likely be born with it. I chose to have him regardless, because I don’t believe in getting rid of a child of mine because he isn’t ‘perfect’. While he didn’t end up with Downs, he is not a typical child and does have significant global delays. The doctors don’t have a name for what he has, but it wouldn’t matter to me if they did. His delays aren’t HIM, they are just something we live with and work around. Do I ever regret not getting an abortion? No. Because that’s not something I stand for.

          • OhNoodlyOne

            I will fight for your right to choose, Kelly. It was YOUR choice, and not anyone else’s.

          • Amos Moses

            Its Gods choice ……….. and no one elses ………. even if a person “chose” to abort …..

          • Tangent002

            Sorry, not everyone believes in your God.

          • Amos Moses

            Sorry …….. that does not matter ………….

          • Amos Moses

            it is interesting to note ….. the more you and others say He does not exist or that you do not believe in Him ….. the more credence you give to the argument that He does exist …. you cut off your own logical argument by arguing against something you say is not there ……. so please continue ………….

          • Tangent002

            Your argument makes no sense at all.

          • Amos Moses

            No …. your argument makes no sense … as you argue against yourself ….. to keep denying that which you say does not exist …. or that there is no evidence ……

          • Tangent002

            Does NOT!

          • OhNoodlyOne

            Which god Amos, just the one you’ve been instructed to believe in?

          • jael2

            Just wondering if you would apply the same logic to a woman who had a born child with a disability?

      • jael2

        Planned Parenthood is revving up their propaganda machine, monopolizing the Zika Virus in order to keep the tax payers hard earned money flowing into their coffers. Plus as an “added bonus” they will make big bucks killing late term disabled babies.
        In regards to “modified” beliefs, we either obey God’s Word or reject it. His law against murder is as relevant today as it was the day He took His finger and engraved it in stone. Those who violate His law, and murder their offspring, regardless if they have disabilities or not, will face the Judge of all the earth.

        • OhNoodlyOne

          You should read what your “holy book” says about aborting.

          • Amos Moses

            Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

            Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

            Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

            Looks like the death penalty to me ……………

          • OhNoodlyOne

            Numbers 5:27 – Abortion Is Okay, If The Mom Doesn’t Approve

            “If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse.”

          • Amos Moses

            yep …. familiar with it ……… but …… you said …… “Who cares? Scripture LOL” ………

            so, sorry ……. you do not get to use scripture …… unless you have changed your mind and accept it as Gods word …………..

          • OhNoodlyOne

            I can point out how stupid your scripture is and at the same time laugh at it.

          • Amos Moses

            No ….. you cannot use scripture that you say is “stupid” and do not understand and try to use that against God and His people ………. want to laugh ….. have fun … hope that works for you … but you have labeled yourself as not worthy of any discussion ……. you are not here to have an intellectual meeting of minds ………. Adios …..

          • OhNoodlyOne

            I just did Amos. I showed you exactly why your “scripture” is stupid. There are no gods, so what’s the problem? If there were, it could shoot me with lightning or something but it doesn’t. Almost LOL like it doesn’t even exist hahaha and you know nothing of intellect if you have an imaginary friend as an adult. Grow up.

          • Amos Moses

            You just did ….. but you lost the discussion ………….

          • OhNoodlyOne

            I totally lost the point of it when you posted that silly comment.

          • Amos Moses

            Yep …. you surely did ….

          • Amos Moses

            Any discussion about scripture you thought you might have …. gone …..

          • Amos Moses

            ” There are no gods, so what’s the problem? If there were, it could shoot me with lightning or something but it doesn’t. ”

            Is that a scientific, theological, or personal opinion ……………..

          • OhNoodlyOne

            yes. I thought you were done talking to me Amos?

          • Amos Moses

            about scripture …… with you ….. yes ……….

          • Pererin

            Regarding Numbers 5 v 11-31. You are either ignorant about scripture and have taken false teaching for truth without checking the teaching what scripture says, or you are dishonestly spreading lies about scripture. Seeing as you have quoted the only place that makes the translation error (NIV 2011) you probably know of the error but choose to spread lies anyway. You’ve been caught. Stop spreading lies.

          • OhNoodlyOne

            your first clue that your “scripture” is irrelevant is that there are a million versions of it. Seriously read a different book. That old book of fairy tales is useless. The whole thing is lies.

          • Pererin

            Actually it’s quite the opposite. The fact that the Bible has been translated into so many languages highlights it’s importance. No other book has been translated into so many languages and formats around the world. These facts show us that it is actually the most relevant book in the world today. Let’s not stop there, it is also the most sold (and stolen) book in history. So, it’s also the most relevant book in history. So you see, everyone wants a piece of God’s word, except you it seems!

          • OhNoodlyOne

            I’m sure that’s what they tell you in church, but that’s a lie. There are over 4200 different religions in the world. But religion is dying. More and more people are coming out as atheists every day. I hope that I see the death of religion in my lifetime. It won’t be long. Atheists number 3rd behind christians and muslims. And as the old christians and muslims die off, their offspring don’t need to pretend to be superstitious anymore. It’s a beautiful thing. Reality is so much better.

          • Pererin

            I’m not sure what that has to do with anything but, hey, looks like you may have been reading a Bible! That’s exactly what the Bible says will happen. When Jesus returns, Christianity will be all but gone. I just hope I’m not around when the Earth is in that pitiful state.

            History has shown us the evils atheism and humanism brings, it’s not a pleasant thought for my children and theirs.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Amen.

            Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple for money changing.

            But, those in the Temple at least kept the 6th Commandment.

            I shudder to think what He will do to pro-aborts. The Scripture you quoted gives us a glimpse.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        That’s Biblical. You are describing a hypocrite, the largest of which are those who were given the right to survive the womb, yet deny that right to 3000 innocents each day.

        • RWH

          No, I’m describing life as it is. Maybe some people like to live in a world of stark blacks and whites and a pile of platitudes that they can use to defend themselves against reality. Others see the stark complications that make all of us struggle against this thing called life. There are many of us men who don’t want to go through life playing the role of Taliban who tell women that the fetus counts and their life doesn’t count. I consider the source. I don’t credit any authority to the fascists, the Taliban, and the other monsters who intimidate women to endure the results of rape, or incest, or a badly deformed fetus that is not viable but will cost thousands of dollars. Their decisions are up to them and their conscience. I have no time for the Taliban-esque busybodies who presume to tell strangers how to live their lives, and when they don’t agree, they throw hell and damnation at them. Society has had enough of religious do-gooders who inflict misery on others. The world already has too many people who would throw others off a cliff for not following a religious dictate. Threaten damnation and curse all you want. We know what your kind is all about.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Glad you brought up the Taliban: abortionists kill more each day than ISIS.

            You are in “good” company.

          • Tangent002

            If we’re playing a numbers game, God kills FAR more fertilized eggs than abortions.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Proof please, that a natural process that occurs in the womb is being performed by a Being you do not believe in.

            I look forward to your reply.

    • Amos Moses

      “a constitutional amendment is the correct route.”

      No …. it is not ……….

  • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

    Keep it coming. Never stop. Don’t give up.

    • OhNoodlyOne

      Don’t worry, I won’t. Every woman has the right to an abortion if she wants one and I will stand up for them always.

      • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

        Why don’t you complete your guilt by making sure it is your own offspring that is murdered.

        • OhNoodlyOne

          That made no sense Martin. Guilt? Murder? You’re delusional.

  • james blue

    Even in the reddest of red states personhood ballots have gone down in flames, I suspect this would too. Regardless it would be overturned as unconstitutional.

    • Tim White

      Agreed. This won’t survive the first challenge, assuming it even gets that far.

  • robertzaccour

    Love them both.

  • robertzaccour

    States are supposed to oppose unconstitutional laws. Life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

    • Kelly Samuelson

      And where is the right to ‘life’ for the babies that get murdered in the womb?

      • robertzaccour

        Sadly our nation violates the constitution and it doesn’t apply to them. The states really need to come together and stand up against the unconstitutional law of legalized abortion.

      • OhNoodlyOne

        They’re not babies. It’s not murder.

        • Amos Moses

          Really ………… so we just throw out the science of DNA and genetic procreation ……….. if it aint a baby …. what is it ………..

          • OhNoodlyOne

            It’s a potential baby- until the pregnant woman decides to allow it to become a baby or not.

          • Amos Moses

            Nope ….. it is no more “potential” than you are ………… so if it can be killed ….. with no consequences ….. so can you ………

          • OhNoodlyOne

            Sure people murder people and get away with it, so? There are laws against it anyways. If they get caught there are consequences.

        • http://burwellfamily.us/resumes.htm Patrick Burwell

          If babies aren’t human then you’re not pregnant ladies.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    “Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, “But we knew nothing about this, does not He who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not He who guards your life know it? Will He not repay everyone for what they have done?” — Proverbs 24:11-12

    “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetuate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.” — Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

    • Triamene

      “Rescue those being led away to death…”

      This quote doesn’t refer to abortion.

      “He who passively accepts evil…”

      You dishonestly ascribe the emotionally charged word “evil” to a complex issue.

      “Silence in the face of evil…”

      Bonhoeffer was not referring to abortion, he was an anti-nazi dissident.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        All 3 quotes apply generically to crimes against humanity.

        Since it is clear that abortion is a crime against humanity, except for science deniers like you, ValRon, they are all equally valid.

        Based on your “logic,” we could never learn from history because the human rights atrocity of the current age always differs in some details to the ones of the past.

        Those, like you, who deny science and forget history are doomed to be on the wrong side of history and human rights violations.

        • Triamene

          It is you Christian fundamentalists who are the science deniers.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Says the one who thinks that life would have begun 5 minutes after the abortion has concluded. 🙂

            The only “religious” one in this conversation is you, the aborto-cultist.

          • Triamene

            You took three completely unrelated statements from history and tried to make them one political statement about something you feel hatred about. I think that’s absolutely hilarious.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            I know that you find the slaughter of 3000 innocents a day to be hilarious, ValRon.

            Some of us have a conscience, however.

          • Triamene

            You just got humiliated for taking three unrelated quotes embarrassingly out of context, Adolf. Own it,

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You are just (correctly) ashamed that your arguments in favor of abortion were also used by slavers and Jew gassers, ValRon. 🙂

          • Triamene

            It wouldn’t surprise me if you love gassing Jews as much as you hate women, Adolf. But lying is lying and that is what you have been caught doing.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You’re just sad that you got your butt kicked on LAN and had to do switch screen names, ValRon. 🙂

          • Triamene

            Don’t involve me in your soap opera, Adolf. Why did you lie with those three quotes and try to say they were about abortion?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Why did you say such horrible misogynist things over on LAN, ValRon?!?

          • Triamene

            Not interested in your soap opera, Adolf. More interesting to me is why you’d take three unrelated quotes (one from the Bible) and try to pass them off as anti-abortion quotes.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Already answered above, ValRon, and you did not refute them. You just started calling me names, like you always do. 🙂

            Why did you change your screen name? Were you banned again?

          • Triamene

            Not interested in your soap opera, Adolf. Why did you take three completely unrelated quotes and try to pretend they were about abortion?

  • jael2

    Sounds like the most Biblical and God honoring plan I’ve read about in some time.
    However, I will be shocked if Roman Catholic, Mike Dewine, and loyalist to NRTL ( and then you can kill the baby ) will allow this this to proceed.

  • Nidalap

    It sounds good and all, but there will be no top-down fix to this.
    Without changing the hearts of the people, all of these efforts are sadly foredoomed to failure…

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      Not true for slavery, Nidalap: that was officially abolished by the 13th Amendment, after a costly war, despite the fact that there were millions of people against it. Hearts and minds, yes, law and order too!

      And the demon-crats did not change the hearts and minds of the people when they put ObamaDoesntCare into place. Totally top-down, in the evil sense.

      The law is a powerful teacher.

      Romans 7:5-7 ESV

      ‘For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” ‘

      • OhNoodlyOne

        Your scripture is irrelevant in a secular country.

        • Amos Moses

          a secular country is irrelevant to scripture, Meow Man …………

          • OhNoodlyOne

            Who cares? Scripture LOL

          • Amos Moses

            Well …. Apparently ………. you do …. you care about scripture …. or you would not be here trying to malign it …………

  • Rich Hogan

    Dipane said he and other two supporters are “just three Christians in Ohio. We saw that since Roe v. Wade (the 1973 decision legalizing abortion) no one had proposed a ballot issue saying you can’t murder babies.” The Bible is quite clear on this fact abortion is not murder but a private matter to be handled by the woman’s patriarch. Plain and simple. These pseudo Christians need to follow their own scripture and stop prying into, what is defined by their very own religion as, a personal matter.
    Exodus 21:22- “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and *yet no mischief follows: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

  • Rick Derris

    Protestant churches were pro-choice until white Southern segregationists like Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell needed to get political power to make sure they didn’t lose their tax-exempt status for keeping their private religious schools segregated.

    Look it up.

    The Bible is fine with abortion. They even have a recipe for a concoction that will cause an abortion in Numbers 5. It was the whole “choice” issue the Bible didn’t care for.

    • Pererin

      Regarding Numbers 5 v 11-31. You are either ignorant about scripture and have taken false teaching for truth without checking the teaching what scripture says, or you are dishonestly spreading lies about scripture. Either way, your are doing harm. I suggest you actually read the passage and stop spreading lies about scripture.

      • Rick Derris

        That was a nice rebuttal!

        A big, long-winded “nuh-uh!”, complete with the grammatical skills of a small child.

        • Pererin

          Like I said, actually read the scripture and stop spreading lies.

          • Rick Derris

            I did read it.

            Obviously you didn’t, because you have no rebuttal.

            11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[c] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

            16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[d] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

            “‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

            23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[e] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

          • Pererin

            That’s the problem with some modern translations, though I suspect you know exactly what you’re doing.

            For those who are actually interested in reading scripture:

            11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

            12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,

            13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;

            14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:

            15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

            16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the Lord:

            17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:

            18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:

            19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:

            20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:

            21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The Lordmake thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the Lord doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;

            22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

            23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:

            24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

            25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the Lord, and offer it upon the altar:

            26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.

            27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.

            28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

            29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;

            30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.

            31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

            Like I said, stop spreading lies!

          • Rick Derris

            So all those people making translations into modern English are just a bunch of heathens, huh?

          • Pererin

            Again with your lies, where did I say all modern translations? I only said that some where bad.

            This just goes to show that you shouldn’t pick up just any translation, there are many corrupt versions around today. Better to stick with the tried and tested I suppose.

          • Rick Derris

            Yeah, any translation that challenges your interpretation is evil. It’s just a coincidence that you don’t like it.

          • Pererin

            We’ll it’s up to you, I’ll go with what has been accepted for 400 years at least and that is just the King James Version. You do realise that there are only a few Bible versions that adhere your preferred translation? So the coincidence lays with you I’m afraid. I’m just going with what is generally accepted as truth. You are the one clutching at straws to find a version that supports your view. But I’m guessing Biblical truth isn’t really your priority here.

          • Rick Derris

            Yeah, you’ll go with the old English translation, because it uses metaphorical language that you can take literally.

            You said I was lying, yet when I presented the facts to you in plain Bible verse, you decided to steer the argument towards different versions of the Bible. How pathetic.

            Let me know when you can point out where I supposedly lied, because you haven’t done so yet.

          • Pererin

            As I said, the old English isn’t the only version that translates it that way, the majority do. You have just gone to a minor, corrupt version that has been written to suit today’s humanistic views. You lied because you spread inaccurate information in order to support your view. Had you simply Googled the issue, you would have seen many links to why that translate of Numbers is in error, but instead you chose to spread lies. Secondly you lied about my comment, you suggested that I said that all modern versions of the Bible were corrupt, when I said that only some were.

          • Rick Derris

            Aww, you keep flagging my comments!

            Are you #triggered?

          • Pererin

            Just don’t appreciate #liars

          • Rick Derris

            You still didn’t show where I lied. You said I showed a version of scripture that you don’t like. That’s not a lie.

            Of course you’re just going to flag comments anyway, because you’re too fragile to have an honest discussion.

            You are weak.

          • Pererin

            I called you on your lies immediately, so go back and read if you really want to know.

            Sounds like you’re feel threatened as you’ve moved onto insults now.

            What an internet warrior you really are! Is this how you get your kicks?

          • Rick Derris

            You moved straight into censorship.

            Saying that you don’t like the translation I used merely because it doesn’t mold with your worldview isn’t lying; however, saying that the translations are evil because they don’t is a lie. Not only is it a lie, but you have made yourself into your own god doing so.

          • Pererin

            I’ve explained all this! Google why the translation you use is incorrect. I’m tired of going round in circles with you.

          • Rick Derris

            Yeah, I’ve read the excuses. All made by people with pre-conceived biases just like yours.

          • Pererin

            Sure, I forgot you’re totally neutral aren’t you. Let’s just totally disregard history to suit you.

          • Rick Derris

            You certainly have.

            Go ahead and Google the Southern Baptist Conventions original statement on Roe v. Wade.

          • Pererin

            You’ll have to be more specific. Do they say anything about Numbers 5? Your lies are growing every post by the way, and you wonder why people flag you.

          • Rick Derris

            You flagged me because you want to censor opposing viewpoints. You still haven’t pointed out where I lied.

            What’s more specific than, “Southern Baptist Conventions original statement on Roe v. Wade”?

          • Pererin

            It’s all there for you to read. You make up something every post. Now it’s censoring? Keep them coming, let everyone see your lies.
            Yes be more specific. What did they say on Numbers 5?

          • Rick Derris

            You still didn’t show where I lied. Still waiting.

            You were talking about ignoring history. I’m calling you out on that, as evangelicals were fine with abortion until segregationists needed another issue to get people to jump on their bandwagon.

          • Pererin

            We’ll I’m still waiting for to read back. I mentioned your latest lie in my last post.

            I still don’t follow regard the SBC. We’ve been speaking of the translation of Numbers 5 and the historicity of that. I’ve not once mentioned the histrocity of the SBC.
            Also, do you regard them to be some sort of papacy figure for evangelicals? I can tell you that they aren’t. Furthmore, the SBC have repented if their role in Wade vs Roe so I’m afraid I still don’t see where you are going here.

          • Rick Derris

            Yeah, you keep calling things lies, but you fail to show how they are lies.

            You said, “Let’s just totally disregard history and knowledge to suit you.” History shows that protestants were pretty cool with abortion until the early 80s, when segregationists like Bob Jones and Jerry Falwell decided to use it to get political power so they could fight the federal government so they could keep Christian schools in the South segregated without losing their tax exempt status. Before that, only the Catholic church was staunchly anti-abortion.

            As for Numbers 5, you’re merely using the KJV because it uses Old English that you can use to twist to suit your view. There isn’t a single verse in the Bible that condemns abortion, yet the religious right used it to gain political power so they can segregate their schools.

            That’s history!

          • Pererin

            Now for some actual history.

            First, the church fathers, the people who where closest to Christ, the apostles and were part of the early Church before before Roman Catholicism. These are who we really need to keep an eye on.

            “Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (Letter of Barnabas 19, 74 AD).

            “And these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion” (The Apocalypse of Peter 25, 137 AD).

            “You shall not procure abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1, 150 AD).

            “There are some women among you who by drinking special potions extinguish the life of the future human in their very bowels, thus committing murder before they even give birth.” (Mark Felix, Christian Lawyer, 170 AD).

            “The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion (Tertullian, 210 AD)

            “Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does” (Tertullian 210 AD).

            “Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses.” (First Canonical Letter, 374 AD).

            “The law, moreover enjoins us to bring up all our offspring, and forbids women to cause abortion of what is begotten, or to destroy it afterward; and if any woman appears to have so done, she will be a murderer of her child, by destroying a living creature, and diminishing humankind.” (The Works of Josephus, Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book II, 25).

            “Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder” (Jerome, Letters 22:13, 396 AD).

            On to Protestantism:

            “those who have no regard for pregnant women and who do not spare the tender fruit are murders and infanticides.” (Martin Luther 1485-1546)

            the unborn, though enclosed in the womb of his mother, is already a human being, and it is an almost monstrous crime to rob it of life which it has not yet begun to enjoy. If it seems more horrible to kill a man in his own house than in a field, because a man’s house is his most secure place of refuge, it ought surely to be deemed more atrocious to destroy the unborn in the womb before it has come to light.

            (John Calvin 1509-54)

            United Kingdom 1861: The Offences Against the Person Act: performing an abortion or trying to self-abort carried a sentence of life imprisonment.

            The Presbyterian Church General Assembly in 1869 said: This Assembly regards the destruction by parents of their own offspring, before birth, with abhorrence, as a crime against God and against nature….

            “Destruction in the mother’s womb is a violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon this nascent life….And that is nothing but murder.” (Dietrich Bonhoeffer 1906-45)

            True, the Bible doesn’t directly say, “Abortion is a sin”. But it also doesn’t directly say “Atheism is a sin” but it so obviously is from passages that indirectly call it out as sinful. So it is with abortion. So many indirect passages that tell us of its evils.

            Jeremiah 1:4-5 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

            Isaiah 49:1,5  Listen to me, O coastlands,  and give attention, you peoples  from afar.    The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name… And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him—for  I am honored in the eyes of the LORD,  and my God has become my strength.

            Psalms 22:9-10 Yet you are he who  took me from the womb;  you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.  On you was I cast from my birth, and from  my mother’s womb you have been my God.

            Psalms 51:5  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,  and in sin did my mother conceive me.

            Genesis 25:22-26 The children struggled together within her, and she said, “If it is thus, why is this happening to me?”  So she went to inquire of the LORD.  And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.” When her days to give birth were completed, behold, there were twins in her womb. The first came out red, all his body like a hairy cloak, so they called his name Esau. Afterward his brother came out with his hand holding Esau’s heel, so  his name was called Jacob.  Isaac was sixty years old when she bore them.

            Judges 13:2-5 There was a certain man of Zorah, of the tribe of the Danites, whose name was Manoah.  And his wife was barren and had no children. And the angel of the LORD appeared to the woman and said to her, “Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son.  Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son.  No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines.”

            Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said,  “Let us make man in our image,  after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”  So God created man in his own image,   in the image of God he created him;  male and female he created them.

            Galatians 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace.

            Luke 1:15-17  for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong  drink, and  he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,  and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah,  to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.

            Matthew 1:20-21 But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.  She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

            Psalm 71:5-6 For you, O Lord, are my hope, my trust, O Lord, from my youth. Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother’s womb. My praise is continually of you

          • Rick Derris

            So you have no Bible verses that mention abortion, and you had to go and use letters outside of the Bible to make your point?

            Wow.

            None of that refutes the fact that the Protestant church in America didn’t care about abortion until segregationists needed it to gain political power.

            Thanks for playing!

          • Pererin

            Either you’ve totally misunderstood my reply, or you have purposefully twisted my reply. Nowhere have I used outside sources to justify abortion. I listed Bible verses which you have chosen to ignore. The the quotes I listed were used, clearly, to disqualify your comments on the historical thoughts on Abortion by Protestants. Funny how you now move the goal posts to American Protestants, should we narrow it down to a 1900 onwards too?

            I don’t know what your occupation is, but you really need to go into politics where your talent for twisting words, shifting focus and misrepresenting the comments of others would be highly regarded. Happily though, most of the people who can read, can see what you are doing. You have nothing to stand on, I give you actual quotes and you either misapply or ignore them.

            Thanks for playing? I don’t play games with children’s lives, however you clearly do and seem to enjoy it.

          • Rick Derris

            “Nowhere have I used outside sources to justify abortion.”

            I assume you mean that you didn’t use them to make an anti-abortion stance. Yet you did.

          • Pererin

            No assumption is needed, I explained why I quoted them in the post in which they are used and also in the post previous to this one, yet for some reason you choose ignore them.

          • Rick Derris

            Kind of like how you ignore the Bible.

  • Tangent002

    They’ve got quite the uphill climb to get this on the ballot:

    “Signatures equalling 10% of the number voting for governor in the most recent election are required to qualify an initiated constitutional amendment for the ballot.”

    A little under 3 million people voted in the last Governor election, which means they will have to collect almost 300,000 valid signatures.

  • Robert

    Abortion most often is murder in the first degree. If you plan and then take a child’s life .you should go to the firing squad or electric chair. There can be very rare crcumstances where as person May not always have to forfeit their life. For murdering a child

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Kingdom Ambassador

    Just think, had the 18th-century founders (like their 17th-century Christian Colonial predecessors) established government and society upon Yaheh’s moral law, including Exodus 21:22-23, infanticide (wrongly termed “abortion”) would have been treated as murder for the last 228 years! So how many murders are the constitutional framers and their supporters guilty of?

    “…3. Every problem America faces today can be traced back to the fact that the framers failed to expressly establish a government upon Yahweh’s immutable morality as codified in His commandments, statutes, and judgments. (Would infanticide and sodomy be tolerated, let alone financed by the government, if Yahweh’s perfect law and altogether righteous judgments were the law of the land? Would Islam be a looming threat to our peace and security if the First Amendment had been replaced with the First Commandment? Would Americans be in nearly as much debt if usury had been outlawed as a form of theft? Would crime be as rampant if “cruel and unusual punishment” had not been outlawed and criminals were instead punished with Yahweh’s altogether righteous judgments? Would we be on the fiscal cliff if we were taxed with a flat increase tax rather than a graduated income tax?)….

    “On February 27, 2009, James Dobson conceded that we have lost the culture wars. This is the consequence of Christians having spent the last two centuries lopping at the rotten branches of our culture’s corrupt tree while watering and fertilizing its roots.

    “We should lop away at the tree’s corrupt branches (infanticide, sodomy, the economy, etc.). However, until the root of these problems is Biblically addressed, we will never shut down the infanticide mills, we will never defeat the sodomites, and we will never fix the economy. In short, we will never win the culture wars. This issue is more than important for anyone concerned about God, our nation, and the future of our posterity, it’s the cutting- edge issue of our day….”

    For more, see our Featured Blog Article “5 Reasons the Constitution is Our Cutting-Edge Issue.” Click on my picture, then our website. This article will be found near the top of our home page.

    Then find out how much you REALLY know about the Constitution as compared to the Bible. Take our 10-question Constitution Survey in the right-hand sidebar and receive a complimentary copy of a book that EXAMINES the Constitution by the Bible.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Treating abortion as murder – the only right and logical thing to do.

  • thinkingabovemypaygrade

    Also add severe penalties for men who push threaten their partner into abortion. Very severe penalties for an adult bringing in an underage minor for abortion…etc. lets bring the father, the abuser, the pimp into this…we have verbally separated males from their child…