Atheist Activist Group Asks Wisconsin Police Department to Change Oath Dedicating Officers ‘Before God’

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Photo Credit: West Allis Police Department/Facebook

WEST ALLIS, Wisc. — A professing atheist group has asked a Wisconsin police department to change the wording of its officer oath, which states that the individual will dedicate themselves before God to their work in law enforcement.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) recently sent a letter to the West Allis Police Department to advise that a “concerned local resident” had contacted them to point out wording in the police department’s code of ethics and oath.

“I will constantly strive to achieve these objectives and ideals, dedicating myself before God to my chosen profession … law enforcement,” it reads.

FFRF believes that citing God in the code and oath is unconstitutional because it could be considered a religious test for serving.

“Altering a mandatory oath to require West Allis law enforcement officers to dedicate themselves ‘before God’ is unconstitutional. There is no legitimate reason to add a religious phrase into a state-mandated secular oath,” its letter to Chief Patrick Mitchell read.

“Article VI of the U.S. Constitution prohibits the government from requiring any kind of religious test for an ‘office or public trust,’ which includes the position of police officer,” it said. “Officers who do not believe in God should not be forced to choose between swearing to a religious oath against their conscience or outing themselves as nonbelievers by refusing to recite the oath as written.”

FFRF is asking that the police department therefore remove the words “before God” from the oath. It notes that the Wisconsin Administrative Code has nearly identical language, but does not include “before God.”

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“The message assumes a common God, but imagine the consternation had the West Allis PD inserted ‘before Allah’ in the code of ethics,” the group stated in its correspondence. “It is equally inflammatory and inappropriate to add ‘before God.'”

It is not yet known whether Mitchell plans to respond.

The Wisconsin Constitution, approved in 1848, begins with an acknowledgment of God.

“We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings, form a more perfect government, insure domestic tranquility and promote the general welfare, do establish this Constitution,” it reads.

The Constitution also declares that the “right of every person to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of conscience shall never be infringed … nor shall any control of, or interference with, the rights of conscience be permitted, or any preference be given by law to any religious establishments or modes of worship.”

It does additionally state that “[n]o religious tests shall ever be required as a qualification for any office of public trust under the state, and no person shall be rendered incompetent to give evidence in any court of law or equity in
consequence of his opinions on the subject of religion.”

However, according to Bill Fortenberry of The Federalist Papers Project, “To understand the true purpose of the religious test clause, we must hearken back to the Corporation Act of 1661. This was the first of three Test Acts which were implemented in England and which remained in effect until 1828.”

“Under these acts, no one could hold office in England unless he swore an oath of fealty not to God, but rather to the doctrines of the Church of England. This was the kind of religious test which the founders prohibited,” he explained. “They had no objection to biblical qualifications. What they objected to was the requirement that all government officials be forced to swear allegiance to the codified doctrines of an established church.”


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  • Stupid Atheist

    “A professing atheist group–”

    Four words in and the article is already ridiculous. How might we distinguish the FFRF as being a “professing” group rather than a simple, generic bunch of atheists?

    Our friends at Oxford suggest that the verb implies disingenuousness on the part of the subject. Willing to back up THAT accusation, CNN…?

  • Frank Dorka

    Religious Freedom has been nothing more than Christian Privilege for over 240 years in this country.

    • Amos Moses

      The ONLY reason you have ANY of the rights you seem to think you have …. is DUE to christian thought and the leaders you point to KNOWING that they had to be in submission to those ideals and the people who held them ….. “government of the people, by the people and for the people” who were CHRISTIANS ………

      • Frank Dorka

        They were Christians…and deists…and agnostics…and ATHEISTS. Really Amos, we have been through this before. You know that history changes when taught from the pulpit. Maybe “Christians” WERE the majority, but they aren’t so powerful any longer. In fact, the CONSTITUTION protects the rights of ther INDIVIDUAL over those of a (tyrannical) majority. Christians have not been necessarily GOOD for this country.

        • Amos Moses

          “They were Christians…and deists…and agnostics…and ATHEISTS”

          Yep ……. but the MAJORITY were christian and held to christian thought and ideals …… and the politicians KNEW that ……. and you would have no so called rights were it not for that …… it was the christians who came here and founded this country ….. NOT “deists…and agnostics…and ATHEISTS” ……. Pilgrims …. CHRISTIANS ….. Puritans ….. CHRISTIANS ….. and EVERY colony and land grant for every state was for the establishment of christianity in the New World ………….. and the documents of the day point that out CLEARLY …..

          • Frank Dorka

            Majority does not matter. READ your Constitution.

          • Amos Moses

            If you are a politician ……. and you want to remain one ………. IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES …..

          • Frank Dorka

            Perhaps you need to LOOK at the SUPREME COURT decisions. You know what the Supreme Court is, don’t you? It’s the body that decides on the clarification of what the Constitution actually means. As far as I know, the Supreme Court is made up of Christians and Jews. Cannot blame atheism for the opinions of the Supreme Court.

          • Amos Moses

            SCOTUS does not determine the truth …….. and that is what we are talking about ….. actually the SCOTUS is made up of mostly liberal Roman Catholics ….. and that is not christianity …… and it may as well be atheist …. the results are the same …..

          • Rookheight

            Except that by “the truth,” you mean whatever you’ve assumed to be true. The rest of us are talking about reality and you are spouting unsupportable dogmatic nonsense. With way too many periods.

          • Amos Moses

            Truth is dogmatic and unchanging… two diametrically opposed ideas cannot both ne true …

          • Frank Dorka

            Not when you have an ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

          • Amos Moses

            nope ……… the only office subject to that is the president ….. not any office of congress ….. FAIL ………….

          • Frank Dorka

            Maybe I meant the President. Who did you mean, the official Chaplain to the Congress?

          • Amos Moses

            contrary to popular belief ….. the president does not make law …. congress does …. and they are not subject to the EC ………

          • Frank Dorka

            Tell me where CHRISTIANITY appears in the CONSTITUTION. It doesn’t. Tell me where Christianity is stated in the Bill Of Rights? It doesn’t. Where is GOD in the Constitution? With your knowledge, it would HAVE to be there, correct?

            It isn’t.

            Christianity is not PROTECTED (above others) by the Constitution. Pull your head out of your thinking end.

          • Amos Moses

            Never said it was in the constitution ………… never said it was in the BOR ….. but it is here ….. the HISTORY of this country ………..

            Justice David Josiah Brewer (143 U.S. 457-458, 465-471, 36 L ed 226): “This is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus … (recited) that ‘it is hoped that by God’s assistance some of the continents and islands in the ocean will be discovered’ …

            “The first colonial grant made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584 … and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes for the government of the proposed colony provided ‘that they be not against the true Christian faith’ … The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606 … commenced the grant in these words: ‘… in propagating of Christian Religion to such People as yet live in Darkness …’ Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony … in 1609 and 1611; and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant.

            “The celebrated compact made by the Pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: ‘Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith … a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia’ … The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-1639, commence with this declaration: ‘… And well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union … there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God … to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess … of the said gospel is now practiced amongst us.’

            “In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: ‘… no people can be truly happy, though under the greatest enjoyment of civil liberties, if abridged of … their religious profession and worship …’

            “Coming nearer to the present time, the Declaration of Independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. … appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions. … And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor’ … These declarations … reaffirm that this is a religious nation.”

            You would not even be here if it were not for that HISTORY ……….

          • Bezukhov

            If having all these rights, and our Constitutional System was “God’s Will”, why did it take sooo looong to get it set up? Why did Christians have to endure centuries of kings ruling by divine right, and the common man treated no better than cattle. Were Christians living then 2nd class Christians?

            You would think, if this system we have now was God’s plan, it would have been obvious from the start. When the Emperor Theodosius I made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire, he should gathered his ministers and told them “Now that we’re Christians we need a constitution, and don’t forget a bill of rights”.

          • Amos Moses

            “If having all these rights, and our Constitutional System was “God’s Will”, why did it take sooo looong to get it set up? “”You would think, if this system we have now was God’s plan, it would have been obvious from the start”

            This system is part of Gods plan, but it is not Gods system ….. Gods system is a Kingdom … the constitution gives no rights to anybody …. never has and never will …………

          • EricWasHere

            Ahh the old God’s plan answer. Sounds like you don’t know so u just say God’s plan. Lame.

          • Amos Moses

            Sounds like you doubt His existence ………

          • EricWasHere

            Of course. I require evidence for belief. Im open to hear evidence but people have been trying to provide it for 2000 years unsuccessfully.

          • Amos Moses

            The truth does not require proof ….. it is either accepted or rejected …. you reject it without proof ……… if it is a lie …. then you should be able to prove it a lie ….. done in every court in this country ………….

          • Rookheight

            “done in every court in this country”? You have no idea what you are talking about.

            If you are accused of a crime that you didn’t commit, the burden is not on you to prove that the allegation is a lie. Anyone who alleges a fact has the burden of providing evidence of the claim, or else the court will not accept it as a fact.

            And I’m willing to bet you don’t apply the same backwards logic on any mythical beings other than your god. Do you require proof that unicorns don’t exist before doubting them? Or do you lack a belief, by default, until some shred of affirmative evidence presents itself? That’s the rational approach with everything, including gods of any sort.

            Also, your period key is still sticky. You should invest in a new keyboard.

          • Amos Moses

            the truth is innocent until proven guilty …. sorry … you are offbase….

          • Rookheight

            “Innocent until proven guilty.” And yet you’re insisting that your fantastic claims must be true until proven false. You’re contradicting yourself and don’t even realize it.

          • EricWasHere

            I didn’t say proof. Just evidence. I also disnt say anything about truth.

            But let me correct you… in court of law the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If they haven’t met their burden you reject the claim you vote not guilty . It is not up to the defense to prove innocence.

            So, as in a court of law… if you claim a god exists you have the burden to prove it. Until you do I reject the claim. Simple.

          • Amos Moses

            evidence is proof …………. and i did say it is truth … as it is … in a court of law the truth is that you are innocent UNTIL proven guilty ………. so the proof is on the accuser …….. and it is just what i said …………….

          • EricWasHere

            ok, probably just a terminology issue then. I don’t consider just one piece of evidence to be proof of something. It would depend on the claim being made. For example… sticking with the court of law theme..

            as you said… the burden of proof is on the accuser, or the person making the claim. You are the accuser here… you are accusing a god of existing. Do you have any demonstrable evidence to provide?

          • Amos Moses

            “the burden of proof is on the accuser, or the person making the claim. You are the accuser here.”

            Wrong ……… the accuser here is you ……….. and it is your claim ………. the given … the A Priori here … is that God exists ….. that that is the truth and it stands unrebutted …….. and if you want to CLAIM otherwise ….. or just reject that truth … its on you ………..

          • EricWasHere

            I have made no claim. I am rejecting your claim. I have tentatively rejected your claim thought. I’m open to changing my mind if you have any evidence. Still waiting.

          • Amos Moses

            It is not up to me to convince you of the truth ….. if you reject the truth …. that is on you …. the A Priori here … the PRE-supposition …. is scripture is the truth …. if you want to disprove it as the truth then please proceed …….. otherwise we can have a coffee and discuss movies ……

          • EricWasHere

            It IS your job, if you want me to believe what you believe.

            You just made yet another claim Amos. “scripture is truth” If you want me to accept that then you’ll need to justify that claim. With evidence.

            That would be like me saying “The Koran is truth… if you want to disprove it as the truth, then please proceed”.

            We can still have coffee though.

          • Amos Moses

            Christ wants you to believe …. you do not want to believe …. or you would ….. it is not up to me to convince you of the truth … it is up to me to not put you in greater peril than you are already in … you want to sit in judgement of God/Christ ….. i cannot assist you in your effort …. it is better for you to not do that and remain ignorant ….. when you are ready to hear the truth … then you will …. or you wont … it is not my choice for you .. it is Christs to decide for you ……………….. He is the only one who can lead you to truth … i can give you His words … but right now you reject His word ….. as you have already stated ……….

          • EricWasHere

            Unfortunately that doesn’t help me. I can’t force myself to believe something I don’t. And I have tried to believe in the past.

            However, I have read God’s word in the bible, and that particular is one I wouldn’t want to worship anyway even if I was convinced it is real. According to scripture, nothing happens unless it is god’s will, so he knew before I was even born that we’d be having this conversation. He apparently also gave me a mind that can reason this out. If he wanted people to believe in him, he wouldn’t have had men write down things in a bible that that is so vague and has been translated so many times to allow everyone to interpret it differently.

            Regardless of what you say, there is no way for me to believe in things without sufficient evidence. Like I said, I can’t force my brain to work a different way.

          • Amos Moses

            “Regardless of what you say, there is no way for me to believe in things without sufficient evidence.”

            So you want me to convince you of something you already reject …. not really what faith is about … scripture can convince us …. but not if your heart is not ready to be convinced …. and by your words …. you seem unready …… there is not much i can do … Christ is far mightier than i …. but you want me to out do Him ….. sorry … i don’t get that …….

            all of scripture is about Christ …. The OT and the NT ……. you might start reading the scriptures from the beginning and look for Him ……. but if you are not going to look for Him …. how do you expect to find Him …. scripture is a book that has rules …. but christianity is not about simply obeying rules ….. and if your desire is to only obey rules … then you will not find what you are looking for …. the law convicts us …. but it does not save us …. if you are not convicted by what you have read … then the next step is beyond you …..

          • EricWasHere

            I don’t have faith in anything. I define faith as believing something when you don’t have a good reason to.

            And yes, I’ve read the bible. I’ve prayed. I’ve talked to friends, I was open.

            So, either a god exists who is so elusive to so many people like me, which is bizarre if this god wants people to believe in him, or there is no god.

          • Amos Moses

            OK …. so again … what am i supposed to say that you will not reject out of hand …. the only thing you want to do is sit in judgement of God …. and i cannot help you with that ……

          • EricWasHere

            I don’t know what you are supposed to say. I don’t judge god. I don’t even think one exists.

            If you don’t want me to reject your claim out of hand, you’ll need to provide justification for the claim.

          • Amos Moses

            “I don’t even think one exists.”

            So then why should i try to convince you of something you reject already ….. and what possible evidence do you have for that assertion ……….

          • EricWasHere

            I didn’t say I couldnt be convinced. Not sure what you mean by “already reject”. I only can reject after you claim something, as there is nothing to reject until then.

            Im not making any assertions. Saying “I think” is not an assertion. You are saying god exists, I’m saying i don’t believe you. Simple as that.

          • Amos Moses

            ” I am rejecting your claim. I have tentatively rejected your claim though.””I don’t even think one exists.”

            So do you or dont you ……… and is that a scientific, theological, or personal opinion ………….

          • EricWasHere

            do I or don’t I what?

          • Amos Moses

            Reject it or not ………

          • EricWasHere

            If you are claiming that a God exists, then yes I reject your claim “until” you justify it.

          • Amos Moses

            It is not a claim and that does not answer the question ………………

          • EricWasHere

            So you don’t claim a god exists? I’m confused on what you believe at this point.

          • Amos Moses

            The existence of God is not a claim …. it is A Priori ………… that he does not exist ……. is a claim ….. so is your assertion a scientific, theological or personal opinion …….

          • EricWasHere

            I never said god doesn’t exist. You are putting words in my mouth.

            So you are saying God exists is not a claim? Hmm that is an interesting position. Following that logic, I could say Thor exists, Fairies exist, Allah exists, and call it A Priori, and now you can’t reject it.. see how that works?

          • Amos Moses

            You could …. and then it would be up to the other person to prove it not so ……… so what ….. and it most certainly can be rejected …. as you do …. and it is up to you to prove it otherwise ………… innocent until proven guilty ….. you are the accuser …. prove your point ………… just like in court …..

          • EricWasHere

            No, that isn’t how existential claims work. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Even if you claim it is A Priori. If I said Thor exists using A Priori knowledge, it is not your job to disprove it. It is my job to justify it just as it is your job to justify your position.

            It is not my job, nor others, to disprove any ol’ thing you can think of.

          • Amos Moses

            “The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. ”

            That be U ………..

            If you reject it … i do not care …. and you still have not answered the question ….. is it a scientific, theological or personal opinion …………

          • EricWasHere

            I have not made any claims. Why this so hard for you?

          • Amos Moses

            You are making the claim …. that God does not exist …. or that He is not God …. you refuse to be clear ….. is that a scientific, theological or personal opinion …………

          • EricWasHere

            Once again, I have not made a claim. Only rejected your claim. I never said god does not exist. I said I reject your claim and do not believe you. To keep saying something I have not said is dishonest.

            My rejection of your claim is based on skepticism.

          • Amos Moses

            “I never said god does not exist. I said I reject your claim and do not believe you.”

            Which says just what i said it says …. that you reject the truth that God exists ….. the evidence is abundant …. it is before you everyday … how am i to convince you of a reality you reject ….

            it is not i that needs to be believed …. that is one of your fundamental errors ….. and if that is where you are stuck …. i do not know how to remedy that …. God makes no claim, i make no claim … the truth is not a claim …. it is accepted or rejected ….. if you reject it then that is between you and God ……. not you and me …..

            “To keep saying something I have not said is dishonest.”

            To couch your words and your claim in sophistry and casuistry is dishonest ………. and this you continue to do ………..

          • EricWasHere

            You can assert things all day long and call it truth, it doesn’t make it so.
            Do you care about what is true or just what makes you feel good?

          • Amos Moses

            You can deny truth all day long …. same result … if you have another truth then present it …. two diametrically opposed ideas cannot both be true ….. i have yet to hear even one opposing “truth” …….

          • EricWasHere

            Let’s be clear. You don’t just call something true and it is true.

            Can you demonstrate this truth? It should be easy for you to demonstrate to me right? Since it is true?

          • Amos Moses

            You do call something true if it is …. and it is …. truth is self evident ….. if it is not evident to you …. then present the opposing truth to refute it ……. it is true that God exists …… you do not accept this truth ….. what else is there to discuss …. you cannot even present a scientific proof to the contrary ….. because God created science and it cant be used to disprove the Creator of the thing …. the painting cannot disprove the existence of the painter of the painting …………..

          • EricWasHere

            More assertions, claims, statements without anything to back them up. This may work for you, but not me. If you want me or anyone else to believe what you believe you better do better than “it’s truth”. Otherwise you are correct. We have nothing left to discuss.

            You do understand what you are doing vs what I am not doing right? You are asserting something without evidence. I am not. It is the height of arrogance to pretend to know something you really don’t know. I am not doing that.

          • Amos Moses

            “”More assertions, claims, statements without anything to back them up.”

            Again …. the truth does not need “backing up” ……. it is the standard by which “claims” are measured …… there is no higher authority than the truth … if you want to challenge it as truth then do so …………..

          • EricWasHere

            That’s what I have been doing this entire conversation. You are saying that god is true. I don’t accept that. You must first establish that something IS true, not just assert it.

            Now, how do we go about determining if your god claim is true or false? What is the process? Hint: Saying A Priori or Self-Evident is not a method or process to finding out what is true.

          • Amos Moses

            The evidence is all around you and you deny it …. not a claim … self evident truth ….

            Simple Definition of self–evident
            : clearly true and requiring no proof or explanation

            “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator …………………….” ` DoI

            A CREATOR ….. is self evident ………… it requires NO PROOF ………. it is not a “claim” ….. your denial of one ……………. IS ………….

          • EricWasHere

            god is not clearly true and does require proof.

          • Amos Moses

            Again …. scientific, theological or personal opinion? ……………..

          • EricWasHere

            To pick one of your 3 options, I would say scientific. Science is the process we use to determine if things are true or likely true.

            More generally though, my statement of “God is not clearly true” is based on a couple of things. 1. Skepticism, which is also a process of critical thinking, and 2. If god was “clearly true” as you say, then why isn’t it clear to 5 billion people on the planet who don’t believe as you do? and 3. God is not clearly true to me. And that statement alone is enough to justify my statement.

            God may be clearly true to you, but that does nothing for anyone else.

          • Amos Moses

            ok … do you have perfect knowledge of everything …. ever …………

          • EricWasHere

            No.

          • Amos Moses

            ok … good … me neither …. so the only way to determine if there is no God is to have that quality ….. that there is no God can only be determined by absolute perfect knowledge ….. the only way to prove God is the same ….. can you prove by evidence that you love your wife (or mom or dad or whomever) ……. repeatable and verifiable evidence that can be measured ……..

          • EricWasHere

            No one said there is no God. So stop trying to equate our positions. Really dishonest.

            So it looks like I have gotten you to admit that we need repeatable and verifiable evidence that can be measured for a god. Now can you do that or not?

            Quit trying to deflect by asking about love. Stay on topic. But yes, I have evidence that I love my wife. verifiable and measured, and repeatable.

          • Amos Moses

            we are talking about whether God exists are we not …………..

            “So it looks like I have gotten you to admit that we need repeatable and verifiable evidence that can be measured for a god. ”

            Not what i said … read it again ……… and we are not done following the logical conversation ……………

            Again …. can you prove by evidence that you love your wife (or mom or dad or whomever) ……. repeatable and verifiable evidence that can be measured …….. answer this question and we will move to the next point …………..

          • EricWasHere

            Yes I can. But comparing a god to an emotion is not the same thing.

            Can you provide repeatable testable measurable evidence for any god? Yes or no.

          • Amos Moses

            “Yes I can.”

            How? ……………

          • EricWasHere

            geeez my post was pending because I included a link.. here it is without the link.

            Well, we can ask my wife if she loves me,
            We can ask the people she has told, over the years
            We can look at all the things we do for each other out of acts of love.
            We can hook our brains up to a computer and actually measure the readings in parts of the brain using MRI technology that align with readings we’ve taken from other people asked the same questions.
            You can monitor heart rate, respiratory rates while thinking about loved ones or shown pictures of your loved ones.

            Google the following “evidence for love mri” and it will take you to a very interesting medical article describing exactly what I am referencing above.

            All these different lines of evidence all line up and point to a single conclusion.
            If you could demonstrate even ANYTHING remotely like what I have listed above for a god that would be something!
            Your turn to answer now… Can you provide repeatable testable measurable evidence for any god? Yes or no?

          • Amos Moses

            all of those are secondary aspects …. it is not a direct measure of love …. we can observe the secondary effects …. that is not a direct measure …. and any number of things can cause the same effects and be “MRIed” and we still have to rely on the person to affirm that “Yes, i am thinking i love my wife” …. and they or may not …..

            Likewise we can observe the effects of God ….. but you deny them …………..

          • EricWasHere

            it is a direct measurement. And it is valid. And Love is an emotion. God is supposed to be a real thing that can manifest in reality right?

            so you speak of this observable effects of a god? Where are the repeatable, demonstrable evidence of your god?

          • Amos Moses

            i did not say it was not valid …. but you cannot put a number on it …. you cannot say you love your wife more than her parents did .. or equally or less …. it is not a direct, definable, measurable, quantifiable and useful test …. it allows us to look at the secondary causes ….. but beyond that … no … it is not …….

            “God is supposed to be a real thing that can manifest in reality right?”

            You, the trees, the air you breathe, are all the observable secondary effects of God …. anything your eye sees … including the eye itself .. is the secondary observable effects of God …. i claimed no primary measurable evidence …. you asked for it …. and i said …. you cannot use that to prove or disprove God ….

          • EricWasHere

            ok.. so you really don’t have any evidence for a god. you just point at stuff you see and assume only god could be the cause.

            a big old argument from ignorance.

          • Amos Moses

            there is abundant evidence of the secondary effects of a God … that you reject ………… and you really have to try hard to suppress that knowledge …… and i never claimed to have any direct evidence … and have said that there is no direct evidence ….. and you cannot prove or disprove him .. and you agreed ……….. how many trees have you created … how did your lungs come to be able to process oxygen so that you can function …. did you will yourself to be born …. the only ignorance here is your ignoring the abundant evidence of His existence …. which you cannot prove or disprove …. just ignore …. without evidence ……..

          • EricWasHere

            If you can’t prove or disprove god, then why do you believe it?

            You don’t have any evidence.

          • Amos Moses

            i have abundant evidence of the secondary effects of God …. i am without excuse …. i have scripture …. the OT which testifies of Christ …. again and again and again …. no one but God could have coordinated the writing of the text and history without His involvement ….. Christ first appears in Genesis 3 .. then in Noah …. then in the story of Moses …. and continually He is in the text ….. but you do not accept the evidence …. without evidence you reject the evidence ………… 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 plus books over 4 continents who had absolutely no way to coordinate what was being written nor did they all have access to the same material ….. it is impossible for it to be written by man or any group of men ……….

          • EricWasHere

            You are preaching, preaching is not evidence.

            There are older books than the bible. There are older religions than Christianity. You need to disprove those, why do you reject what is obvious in the older religions?

          • Amos Moses

            not preaching ….. answering your question … you asked …… books do not make them true .. truth does not die … where is the evidence that those books are authentic ….

          • EricWasHere

            Those books are the truth, you can see evidence around you wherever you look. You reject it, you are trying hard to suppress this that knowledge.

          • Amos Moses

            where is the evidence of these books existence …. i do not even know what book you are talking about …. and what is their historicity …. where are the autographs …. how many …. what is their origin …. where were they discovered ….

          • EricWasHere

            You just reject the evidence… it is all around you.. Look at the air and the trees! This is Truth. You just need to quit rejecting this obvious.

          • Amos Moses

            i accept all that evidence …… i do not know what book you refer to ….

          • Jim Tully

            Eric, you are arguing with a man who passes judgement from behind a computer. He preaches to the choir. This is safe for him . He either doesn’t get challenged by the like-minded drones or when he does, he hides behind “a priori”, “self evident” or “ad hominem.” He has a wonderfully constructed bubble from which to rule.

            But the truth is he’s a sad little man, a coward, really, with a pessimistic view of the world. As long as he lives his life in the comment sections of Christian and conservative websites, he is safe. That is no life and he knows this deep down. Saved?
            Hardly.

          • EricWasHere

            Well I haven’t read his other comments or threads. I’m just going off this one conversation. I wouldn’t call him a coward. He believes what he believes, I came to realize he just had bad thinking / sloppy thinking. You’ll notice when I ask him a series of questions his replies start to go into preaching mode again.

      • Bezukhov

        I doubt that. If you want to thank anyone for your rights, thank a Freemason.

        • Amos Moses

          well i cannot deny a freemason hand in all this ….. but that is a demonic influence that is still present to this day ………….

          • Frank Dorka

            Scary!!!!

  • Reason2012

    If they want it to be an atheist police force, then these atheist activists can put their lives on the line and then have no mention of God when you work for that police department.
    But the truth is atheist ACTIVISTS do not care for others, only care for themselves and their hate for Christianity.
    Ask them why they never go after schools where_islam is taught and defended. Presto – anti-Christian bigotry is their only motive.

    • Frank Dorka

      Are you nuts? You can stick your religion anywhere you want except on public land. Is that too much to ask of a singular religion? I think not.
      Separation of religion and government was the basis for forming this nation, not a belief in YOUR god.

      • Emmanuel

        Do you understand separation of C and S?

        • Frank Dorka

          Better than you I would imagine. Have you read what John Adams wrote on the subject? Thomas Jefferson? James Madison? Unless you were one of the architects of the Constitution, why would I accept your opinion on the matter. I trust those that wrote it.

          • Emmanuel

            I read it all and I understand it clearly. As a church leader, I have to know it well. I was not there, like you, so we have to read and learn from it. But to say it formed this country, that’s a bit wrong.

          • Frank Dorka

            Did not the first Americans come to this country to escape religious persecution? Not a bit wrong.

          • Bezukhov

            And when they got here they persecuted anyone suspected of witchcraft.

          • Emmanuel

            Yup they did. They wanted religious freedom and therefore 1st Amendment. The Separation memo came 70 years after the declaration. So how does a memo from our government form it when it was already established, set and running?

          • Frank Dorka

            Declaration makes no law. Bill of Rights creates no law. Funny America came much after the Declaration as well.

          • Emmanuel

            Separation is not a law but a memo
            Separation is already under 1st Amendment

          • Frank Dorka

            Really where? It doesn’t say that does it? It doesn’t say “Freedom of” or “Freedom from” religion. It never mentions God or Christianity, either. You have to read the writings of those that created the Constitution to see what they meany by separation of religion and government, don’t you.

          • Emmanuel

            The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion……..
            The government can not dictate theology and visa versa.

          • Frank Dorka

            Read what Adams, Franklin, Jefferson and Paine said on the matter.

          • Emmanuel

            That does not matter, the 1st matters. Law matters and what governs our land.

          • Frank Dorka

            So it matters not what the intention of the creators of the Constitution meant as long as it’s the way that you view it?

            Abortion is the LAW. So pro-life does not matter?

          • Emmanuel

            Yes, abortion is legal. but is it right? nope. Adoption matters. Churches preaching about it being wrong without state interference does matter.
            the document that was signed in Philly matters, not the memos, letters or opinions matters.

          • Frank Dorka

            Well, you and I read the same Amendment and get two different takes on it, I guess. Just like how you love your Bible, but are blind to the atrocities that it condones. Well, Happy Hunting Grounds, Buddy

          • Emmanuel

            We can’t ignore the atrocities done by the godless. have a great and moral weekend.

          • Frank Dorka

            Okay. And none of that killing int the name of the Lord, alright?

          • Emmanuel

            No, there were plenty killed in the name of Jesus and plenty killed for loving Jesus by the ungodly.

          • Frank Dorka

            And plenty of innocents killed during the Crusades, the Inquisitions and witch trials. In fact the Christians used to kill scientists for making discoveries that contradicted the Bible.

          • Frank Dorka

            In essence the “godly”.

          • Emmanuel

            The same could be said for the nonbelievers’ killings. Sin is sin and it’s still wrong. Or is it not?

          • Frank Dorka

            I think that it’s worse when done in the name of a god.

          • Emmanuel

            A nonbelieve has a god; money, power, self and/or other gods. So it’s the same?

          • Frank Dorka

            No god, no money, no power and no other gods. I do have myself, don’t you? Not the same at all.

          • Emmanuel

            I have God. I deny myself to do the will of God. I don’t consider myself a god. My education is not my god. My job and my position is not my god. God is my only God. Sounds like you are your own god. I told you, you have a god.

          • Frank Dorka

            Nope. I am not my god. Why? Do you think I need one?

          • tatoo

            The Declaration was in 1776. The Bill of Rights in 1789. That is not 70 years.

          • Emmanuel

            that memo was written in 1802 or so, so 20 years later.

          • Bob Johnson

            Jamestown, Virginia Colony, 1607, was the first permanent settlement and it was primarily an economic venture.

      • Reason2012

        Search on big-u-s-school-district-submits-to-islamic-supremacy and get back to us when you speak out against rules and laws being passed promoting islam.

        The issue is atheists want to force THEIR belief system by force of law pretending it’s illegal for anyone else to mention their beliefs except where atheists give permission.

        And no, America was founded on the right to freedom of religion, not freedom only where atheists give their permission.

        • Frank Dorka

          You really do not get it, do you? Okay, listen. This country protects ALL Americans, whether they believe in a Christian god or not. They work just like Christians. They fight in combat just like Christians. They care for our sick just like Christians. They teach our children just like Christians. AND they can vote, just like Christians. Yet they do not abuse “religious freedom” on such a scale as Christians do. All we want is a little equality, a little fairness, a little tolerance for people that ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Believe whatever fantasy, superstition or faith that you want, just keep it off of public property, out of public schools and free from interfering in government and we will all get along.

          ACTUALLY WE HAVE BEEN GETTING PERMISSION FROM THE cHRISTIANS FOR OVER 240 YEARS IN THIS COUNTRY. LET UP, ALREADY!

    • TwoRutRoad

      DON’T tell me I don’t care for others!

      When I see a sick or handicapped child, I can hardly breathe. The suffering of others brings me great sorrow. My love and devotion to my family and friends is enough to make your heart burst, and I am thrilled when I see a beautiful sunset or hear a moving song or poem.

      You owe me an apology, sir.

      • Bacchus

        Boo hoo, little girl.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Oath has no meaning without God. USA will become a mere chaos apart from God. Rule of atheism should be stopped. Atheism does not and cannot value human life. USA needs Christianity for salvation and for doing what is good and right. Their mottos, “Honor, loyalty, respect, integrity, excellence, teamwork” exist only for God and by Him. No God = No honor or anything noble.

    • Frank Dorka

      Christianity has been the dividing force ion this country all along. It’s your inability to cope or even deal with people that are different from yopurselves. Don’t you know that Adams, Madison, Jefferson and others that wrote the Constitution also wrote of the wall of separation between religion and government?
      Someone can swear an oath unto themselves. It has way more depth than an oath to an unproven god.
      You are not noble. You are not a patriot. Re-examine your priorities.

      • Amos Moses

        “Christianity has been the dividing force ion this country all along.”

        PRECISELY …. dividing RIGHT FROM WRONG …. dividing GOOD FROM EVIL ….. dividing MORAL FROM IMMORAL ….. dividing TRUTH FROM LIE ….. dividing Self righteousness from righteousness …. and when you “swear an oath unto themselves” all you are doing is swearing your own self-righteousness ……..

        • Frank Dorka

          When you pledge an oath to yourself, you are actually swearing an oath to something that exists. There is no proof of your god existing. I trust myself more that your imaginary sky friend.
          Christianity is doing so much to bring gays to their own, right? They are telling women to be proud of their independence, right? They are not hurting innocent people at Planned Parenthood or Military funerals, right?

          WRONG. Face it, you have a stern hatred for anyone unlike your own and wish to not ever have to deal with them, to the point of having them removed from the country or society as a whole.

          • Amos Moses

            “When you pledge an oath to yourself, you are actually swearing an oath to something that exists. ”

            Is that a scientific, theological or personal opinion …….. so if say a person like Sadam Hussein takes an oath to himself …. we would trust him to do WHAT …..

          • Frank Dorka

            Lame argument at best. Are you on medications?

          • Amos Moses

            no …. you are the one who wants to do what you just said to christians ……… so it is a self description of your hidden desire ……

          • Frank Dorka

            Got me there, I guess, (as I have no idea what you are talking about) thus the question about your medications. What exactly did you mean by my “hidden desire”? Haven’t I been open with you?

          • Amos Moses

            Your desire to kill the idea of God …. which you cannot disprove …. and the followers of Christ ………… so much for your “tolerance” ………..

          • Frank Dorka

            We have tolerated you for over 240 years, haven’t we?

          • Amos Moses

            No … you have not …. your desire has not changed one iota …….

          • Frank Dorka

            Your numbers are down to about 70% (if you count Catholics) and atheists about 3%. If you are losing, how can you blame us?

            By the way, which god? Have we killed Zeus and Thor? Buddha? Tebow?

          • Amos Moses

            What is happening ….. is all in scripture…. and scripture does not blame you … and neither do i …..

            ….. and you still have not answered the question ……”By the way, which god? Have we killed Zeus and Thor? Buddha? Tebow?” …. is your assertion a scientific, theological, or personal opinion that God/Christ does not exist ……….

          • Frank Dorka

            All three of those with a dash of believabilty, common sense and natural instinct to boot!

          • Amos Moses

            ” Face it, you have a stern hatred for anyone unlike your own and wish to not ever have to deal with them, to the point of having them removed from the country or society as a whole.”

            Self description is not a good argument technique ………… accusing others of what you want to do is very revealing ……….

          • Frank Dorka

            I won’t stand for the Christian double-babble. I knew (and practiced) it well when I was a Christian defending my so-called beliefs at the time. Don’t bullshit a bullshitter!

          • Amos Moses

            Sure …. so you are not a used to was …. you are a never were ….. and the evidence is you call them “defending my so-called beliefs at the time” ….. so you lied to yourself ….. and you continue to lie to yourself …. nothing has changed …………

          • Josey

            since am being edited, let me edit my own post…practicing and being are two different things totally…however, you can be a child of God and He will forgive you for lying about it now rather than have it announced when you will kneel before Him and confess He is Lord of Lords and the King of Kings when every knee will bow whether by choice or not.

          • Frank Dorka

            Edited? We are talking politics. Never come to an argument over the Constitution armed with only a Bible, okay?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Holy Bible brought mankind the truth and freedom. America is nothing if she had no Bible.

          • Frank Dorka

            Have you read a Bible. It claims that slavery is just fine, beating your children to death is okay, has no problem with wiping out complete races or killing everyone on the planet.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Slavery has been a normal practice among mankind until people get Bible literacy. Wayward adult kids who put the entire nation to danger get executions even today in most nations. Noah’s Day’s generations and Sodom and Gomorrah and Canaan were wiped out because they harmed innocent others. ( Leviticus ch.18-20) Sodomic USA may be next if the nation does not repent. This is God’s world and Sodomites don’t inherit anything. Submission to perv West is a disgrace as a human being. You guys are too well-fed and being bored. Wake up.

          • Frank Dorka

            Sounds like you are ready to leave. Don’t let the screen door hit you on the way out, hateful Christian.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You atheists always insult people personally instead of sticking to the subject. Grow up.

          • Frank Dorka

            You forget that I was once a Christian. I learned all the tactics as how to deal with people of differing faiths or no faith at all. Cannot BS a BSer! You should grow up. The first man was not made of dirt and his wife (?) from his rib. Explain where Abel and Cain found wives. Grow up. That is harder to believe in than Santa Claus.

            To use your terms…”YOU” Christians are knee deep and on your way to being buried in it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You were never a Christian. You learned not a thing. Soil’s components make up the human body. Explain how DNA could exist without design. Data only point to God’s creation; nothingness creates nothing. No record on Abel’s wife. Adam’s first generation children alone married brother-sister safely. Santa Clause was real; he is historic St. Nicholas. You must read the Holy Bible with humility and honesty.

          • Frank Dorka

            You do not know me. You make baseless remarks like I have seen so many other “Christian” do. I say that you are not a CHRISTIAN for your words and actions disqualify you. Try learning about others that do not share your warped vision of America and Christianity. Lying just doesn’t look good on you.

            People of Asian descent are demons and the workers for Satan.

            How do you like it?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You didn’t know the Holy Bible doesn’t mention Abel’s wife. It means you didn’t even read Genesis chapter 4. The Holy Bible is a thick book. Read the entire Book especially the four Gospels, and then talk about Christianity. You Western atheists lie like copied robots. Asians are the descendants of Adam and Eve and then Noah and his wife, just like all others. Noble sacrificial white Christian missionaries gave us the copies of the Holy Bible before the mentally ill secular Westerners attempt to enslave the world again, with homosexuality this time. Too late for you childless bullies to take away our freedom. I feel sorry for your normal ancestors. What shameful perv descendants to have. A man is really fortunate if his descendants are not today’s perv Westerners. You guys are sane and normal only when you adhere Christianity.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            You know I saw that actually on TV yesterday, but it was in German so didn’t understand all the technical details. But very interesting. No talk about dirt or rib though.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            People live by doctrines. No Bible = No education. The Germans did evil last century because of Darwinism and humanism. Europe needs sound Biblical Christian doctrines to get saved and do good.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            No idea what I said about the evolution of the human has to do with what the Germans did in WW2. Good thing your doctrines will never be law.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Nazi Germany was a firm believer in Darwinism and evolution. They wanted their superior genes to go on for-ever. In the process, the planet lost the segment of the finest people – 6 million European Jews and 7 million German males and 37 million others. The grief never ends.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            So killing the jews had to do with evolution? You do know that Hitler thought that the jews conspired to become more powerfull then the Germans. Hitler was crazy, had nothing to do with darwin or evolution.

          • Frank Dorka

            Oh, sweety, The SS had belt buckles that said “God is with us.” Hitler always claimed to be a Catholic and he was very generous to the Vatican when it came to stealing art from the Jews.
            He spoke many times of god in his speeches. Again you fail at actual history.

          • Bob Johnson

            You mentioned you were watching Germany television. How much more of a segue does Grace need to pontificate on social darwinism and humanism?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            LOL! Maybe the fact that I’m in Germany on vacation right now with dad, sis and the two dogs.

          • Bob Johnson

            On vacation – get off the computer and go have some fun with your family.

          • Bob Johnson

            So God’s solution to people who harm the innocent is to wipe out the innocent along with the wicked?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Creator God alone can make the innocent victimized creatures blessed permanently. Read Psalms. The only reason today’s Sodomic USA is spared is because of its Christian population. Be thankful to Christians in the land for your filthy survival. You still have time to repent of your sins. ( Genesis ch.18-19, John ch.3)

          • Bob Johnson

            Then why are you so upset when the innocent are murdered in abortion? Is not God making them permanently blessed?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Man should never manually murder innocent children. Unborn children are fellow humans. Christians fight against murder till the end because God commanded us to do justice. (Micah ch.6) Read the Holy Bible to obtain life.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are wrong. All the Founding Fathers were Christian-educated if not Christian converts; that’s why they were superb. USA without Christianity is a man without conscience. You’ve received everything excellent from the Christianity alone. Christian British educated Americans to be civilized. Humanism kills and secularism only pollutes the planet and youth.

        • Frank Dorka

          You are wrong. Perhaps if you didn’t get your education from a pulpit you might know this. So sad to be so ignorant of proof, evidence and the Constitution.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You Americans need outsiders to discover who you are. USA IS CHRISTIAN AND WAS CREATED FOR CHRISTIANITY! Today’s secular Americans are such aliens from the outer space. If you guys have no clue on the founding and formation of the USA, you guys should leave the nation.

          • Frank Dorka

            Freemasons, darling, mostly Freemasons. That is the truth. Christians lie. That is a truth. Perhaps if you can read…the history of America will show clearly what your elders in church have misled you to believe. Don’t tell me. I was a pretty devout Christian at one time. I studied the Bible in school. Two years of the New Testament and one of the Old Testament. I also studied American History in High School, where I saw the truth about the forefathers as well as in College where I found MORE truth about the founders.

            America was created for all people no matter what they believe. If YOU do not like that, there are plenty of countries that force a religion on all it’s citizens. Sounds more like YOUR comfort level.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. America is nothing apart from Christianity or the Holy Bible. Just blasphemies and mentally ill immorality as seen on today.

          • Frank Dorka

            I don’t watch that program (Today). No, but seriously….seriously? America is becoming a bigger “nothing” as the number of Christians is dwindling fast. Are you sure you want to stay?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I don’t live in USA. If USA loses freedom, many nations will, too. We still have freedom to speak against the atrocities of the Western pervs’ mental illness, thanks to all the Western Christians of yesteryears.

          • Frank Dorka

            Go to hell Gracie. Not an American. Why should we give you any attention?

          • Frank Dorka

            Yawn.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible.

          • EricWasHere

            I read it. Nothing spectacular.

          • Frank Dorka

            I did. there were parts that just disgusted me.

    • tatoo

      Bullshit.

    • Cady555

      You are free to believe that. But you have no right to force others to play along.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        ?? Freedom of speeches. Liberal USA forces Sodomy upon the poor world. Liberal USA is doing evil because it thinks it can get away with anything just because it is wealthy and mighty. USA needs Christians to do good. The West is increasingly becoming like Nazi Germany by upholding sexual immorality unconditionally. People have rights to sane morality such as living out Christianity.

  • Brian Williamson

    The Police Department is violating Article VI of the US Constitution by including God in the mandatory oath of office. They have no right to continue this practice and no legal defense. Any citation to laws predating the US Constitution also would violate Article VI.

    The oath must change to become secular whether the local majority likes it or not, or the commenters on this site like it or not. End of discussion!

  • Trilemma

    All that has to be done is to allow an officer to request that “before God” be omitted from his/her oath. Military oaths typically end with, “So help me God.” But anyone can request that phrase to be omitted from their oath.

    • MarkSebree

      The problem is that he or she is effectively announcing to the police force that he or she is not religious. Given that it is likely that almost all the members of the force, especially the higher ranking members, are religious, and probably very religious, that means that you get singled out. And in a very dangerous job like law enforcement, that could be deadly. Delayed back-up, “friendly” fire, a “preference” for dangerous assignments, and so on.

      Unlike the military, everyone tends to know everyone on a police force. In the military, the person administering your oath, especially the first time, may have little to no interaction with you. That also makes a big difference.

  • Croquet_Player

    Employees cannot be required to swear an oath to any deity. Case closed.

    • Bacchus

      Nonsense. All that is illegal is establishing a national religion.

      • Croquet_Player

        I think you’ll find that’s not true. Watch and how this issue ends up.

        • Duke of Dixieland

          Moron

        • Darren H

          Other than hate, poor atheists got no emotions at all.
          Sad little creatures.

          • Croquet_Player

            Oh, I think reading the comments shows us exactly where the hate is coming from.

      • EricWasHere

        So you are ok with employers requiring their employees to swear an oath to a deity in order to keep their job?

      • Kahn_Tango

        “All that is illegal is establishing a national religion.”

        Wrong.

        The U.S. Constitution mentions religion exactly twice: once to prohibit any religious test to hold public office (Article VI, paragraph 3), the second to prohibit the establishment of a state religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; (First Amendment).

    • calduncan

      Old woman with no brains.

  • Frank Dorka

    It’s worse when done in the name of a god.

  • Kahn_Tango

    Wisconsin police department oath and code of ethics changed due to FFRF

    “The West Allis Department Code of Ethics has now been modified and is taken verbatim from the Wisconsin Administrative Code” – the Wisconsin Administrative Code does not include the words “before God.”

    Patrick S. Mitchell
    Chief of Police
    West Allis Police Department