OB/GYN Says Abortion Never Needed to Save Mother After Clinton Defends Late-Term Abortion Stance

koning-compressedA California OB/GYN is speaking out after Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton defended her stance on late-term abortion Wednesday night.

“As an OB/GYN physician for 31 years, there is no medical situation that requires aborting/killing the baby in the third trimester to ‘save the mother’s life,'” Dr. Lawrence Koning of Corona, California wrote on social media following the event.

“Just deliver the baby by C-section and the baby has 95+% survival with readily available NICU care even at 28 weeks,” he said. “C-section is quicker and safer than partial birth abortion for the mother.”

As previously reported, Clinton was asked by debate moderator Chris Wallace on Wednesday how far her beliefs go about abortion.

“I want to explore how far you believe the right to abortion goes. You have been quoted as saying that the fetus has no constitutional rights. You also voted against a ban on late-term, partial-birth abortions. Why?” he inquired.

“Because Roe v. Wade very clearly sets out that there can be regulations on abortion so long as the life and the health of the mother are taken into account,” Clinton replied. “And when I voted as a senator, I did not think that that was the case.”

She asserted that there are cases where a woman’s health might be at risk if they carry the child to term.

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“The kinds of cases that fall at the end of pregnancy are often the most heartbreaking, painful decisions for families to make,” Clinton said. “I have met with women who toward the end of their pregnancy get the worst news one could get, that their health is in jeopardy if they continue to carry to term or that something terrible has happened or just been discovered about the pregnancy.”

“I do not think the United States government should be stepping in and making those most personal of decisions. So you can regulate if you are doing so with the life and the health of the mother taken into account,” she added.

But nearly 40 years ago, former U.S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop advised, like Koning, that abortion is never needed to save the life of the mother.

“Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen,” he said. “In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be be aborted to save the mother’s life.”

“When a woman is pregnant, her obstetrician takes on the care of two patients—the mother-to-be and the unborn baby. If, toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, he will take the child by inducing labor or performing a Caesarian section,” Koop explained. “His intention is still to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby will be premature. The baby is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger.”

In 2012, nearly 900 medical professionals signed the Dublin Declaration on Maternal Health, which likewise contended that abortion is never necessary when the mother’s health is at risk.

“As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman,” the declaration read. “We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.”

“We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women,” it stated.


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  • ComeOnPeople!

    I had my first child 2 1/2 months early and then my last baby tried to arrive even earlier then that. The doctors gave me medicine to stop the contractions & keep the baby from coming and also kept me in the hospital for 2 months. During these 2 months in the hospital I almost died when my daughter tried to come again due to the medications used to hold back the contractions & the stress on my body. Yet my doctors knew what they were doing and neither my baby nor I came to harm. After 2 months the baby again tried to come and this time they did not up the medication nor try in any way to prevent her arrival knowing that her lungs had had the time needed to form. She was born with a month and 1/2 left to go. That was 30 years ago and even then saving a mother and babies life was possible without killing the baby to do so. All medical reports will tell you that abortion is one of the most dangerous things a woman can do in regard to her health. Yet media pushes this abortion for the mothers health lie. No sorry women abort because they do not want the baby. Plain and simple… unwanted babies are aborted… mothers who want their baby do everything possible to protect them and many times almost come to deaths door like I did to ensure they have a chance to survive. It’s not a mater of womens health or they would never accept the most dangerous procedure in history known to a pregnant woman… abortion . It’s about unwanted babies and money.

    • TwoRutRoad

      That must have been a frightening ordeal. You must have had good doctors.

      • ComeOnPeople!

        It was a frightening time but at the same time a time of faith.

        Again abortion is nothing more then killing unwanted children in their most vulnerable time. I have a friend who told me she aborted her first two babies that were conceived because she was promiscuous in her high school years. She did so because of her parents and another because she hated the idea of giving up her dreams to raise a child. The man she married later and has 5 children with doesn’t even know about the terminated pregnancies. She said she has lived with regret every since and said the abortions took a much higher tole on her body, heart and mind then going through with pregnancies. She confessed to me that her choice to murder her first two pregnancies was out of fear, shame and selfishness. Women abort not to save their health but because of being to young, not wanting to give their lives to raising a child or other selfish reasons. Only when they confess why they did so do they actually start to heal and forgive themselves for what they did. The to save a romans life abortion narrative just doesn’t match up to reality. Studies show that women who have abortions are at much higher risk for infection, sterilization and even death. Live births are much less risky for women, even those with health problems. And doctors have become quite good at saving both mom and baby when risks arise .

        I also have a friend who had complications and had a baby that weighed less then 2 pounds. That little girl struggled but is now a happy healthy toddler.

        • TwoRutRoad

          You must have had great faith in the doctors.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Yes one would hope they hold to their vow to do no harm.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Apparently you had more faith in the doctors than in God. Or perhaps God needed some assistance?

          • ComeOnPeople!

            Apparently you do not understand that just because a person of faith has a baby with the assistance of a man who has studied how the body works which GOD made and assists others based upon that knowledge of study… does not in anyway diminish there faith in the GOD who created the body. Perhaps GOD gave man the ability to learn and to help their fellow man with that acquired knowledge.

          • TwoRutRoad

            If GOD made the body, why should help be needed? Because it’s a lousy design.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            No because man chose knowledge , status and death over life. We are in a fallen state because mankind chose to be unfaithful to the CREATOR. The CREATOR is love and love will never force itself upon anyone. Therefore man was offered a chose and man chose to be unfaithful it his CREATOR. The study of the body even by those who deny the CREATOR will never say it is a lousy design. As a matter of fact all who study the body are intrigued and amazed it it’s design.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Yes, the body is intriguing and amazing, but it could be so much better. You could choke to death while eating your dinner because you eat and breathe through the same opening. Dolphins have a separate breathing hole, so it’s not hard to accomplish. And I was not offered anything by any creator. I’ve neither seen nor heard from him since I was born. If I am being punished for someone else’s actions, then the system is completely unfair.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            If you are being punished it is simply of your own doing. If a child starts a fire and is quickly surrounded by it, his father who had instructed him not to play with fire to begin with … would race in to save him, still that child would come out smelling of smoke or with burns. A good father instructs his children in hopes that they obey him so as to not suffer pain or loss . Did that father remove all objects that might harm his child? Of course not! It’s not the objects that harmed that child but his choice to either use them in a wrong manner or touch something that was forbidden to him because it was not meant for him. Also that good father risked his life even for a disobedient child. WHY? Pure Love. This is what your CREATOR did for CREATION that had rebelled against their heavenly FATHER. Mankind was told not to partake of a tree which would show them evil and bring suffering and death upon them and their children, yet they disobeyed their FATHER’s instructions and HE raced in to save them. If you choose to remain in disobedience and die that is your choice but your CREATOR made a way for you to escape and one day go back to no pain,sorrow or death.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

            If you do not believe me, please set your argument up in predicate logic form, and you will see it.

            Here I will help you – here is your argument:

            Premise 1: If the human body fails, then it must not be well-designed.

            Premise 2: The human body fails.

            Conclusion: Therefore, the human body must not be well-designed.

            The logic is sound, and Premise 2 is true. Premise 1 is clearly flawed.

            Cell phones and airplanes are generally well-designed technologies in this day and age and yet fail all of the time. (The shuttle in your avatar supports your position however – it was garbage.)

            You are welcome to be an atheist, but violations of simple logic will not be tolerated.

            If you followed the science and logic where it leads you, and were intellectually honest, you would be a pro-life atheist as I once was.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Your “help” was flawed. You left out the most important part.

            Here I will help you.

            Premise 1: God designs the human body.

            Premise 2: The human body fails.

            Conclusion: Therefore, God is either inept, malicious, or non existent.

            In this case, premise 1 is still flawed, because it makes an unsubstantiated, illogical claim, but it’s not MY claim. It’s hers. And maybe your, too, so don’t complain to me about violations of simple logic and intellectual honesty.

            You analogies of the cell phone and shuttle are irrelevant, because they are man made, not created by an omnipotent creator. Your irrelevant analogies simply will not be tolerated.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. If you believe it does, please specify the rule of logic (modus tollens, modus ponens, etc) by which it does.

            You are welcome to wallow in your blind faitheism, but please do not pretend it is anything but emotionalism that keeps you there.

            The analogies I provided are excellent, because they show examples of failed designs that could have been better, given more time or monetary resources. The omnipotency factor does not show up in your argument, illogical as it is.

            Finally, no reply to following the science and logic on abortion. I will take that as a concession.

          • TwoRutRoad

            You must be a riot at parties.

            You know exactly what I’m saying, but you can’t take it at face value and have any kind of discussion. And don’t tell me to specify the rule of logic in THAT, because I will admit to emotionalism. I’m a human, not a Vulcan.

            I also admit that I don’t know a tollens from a ponens, so I’ll have to get back to you with a revised statement following a specific rule of logic. I’ll have to start on that tomorrow.

            I will reply to your science and logic on abortion, though, before I go to bed:

            You said, “If you followed the science and logic where it leads you, and were
            intellectually honest, you would be a pro-life atheist as I once was.”
            Since “…as I once was” would indicate that you no longer are, it would mean that you no longer follow the science and logic where it leads you, and that you are no longer intellectually honest.

            So, If I followed the science and logic where it leads me, and was
            intellectually honest, I would be as you once were.

            I’ll talk to you tomorrow.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            OK, TwoRutRoad, thanks for toning it down – I will also.

            “You must be a riot at parties.”

            Actually, I am! I have a great sense of humor and am known as the life of the party for my witticisms.

            “You know exactly what I’m saying”

            I DO know what you are trying to get at, but your conclusion does not follow, even if your premises are true. It would be kind of like if I said “Stalin was an atheist, therefore atheism is false.” The conclusion simply does not follow from the premise, and if we are on an honest search for truth, then we need to at least adhere to some form of rational thought. Atheists pride themselves on it, but I have found them to be most wanting in this area.

            “And don’t tell me to specify the rule of logic”

            That’s because one does not exist for your strawman. 🙂

            “I also admit that I don’t know a tollens from a ponens”

            That is OK – they are easy to learn. I am just asking you to not think that you are rational and logical, instead of emotional. You owe ComeOnPeople an apology for just spewing forth your emotions.

            “would indicate that you no longer are, it would mean that you no longer follow the science and logic where it leads you”

            See? Here again, your logic is flawed, as flawed as the space shuttle in your avatar, perhaps more foamy than foam and stiff than a frozen O-ring. The fact that I followed science and logic as an atheist is no warrant against my following science and logic as a Christian. I am no longer an atheist, I still follow science and logic.

            OK, so just to prove to you that I have a sense of humor, I give you the Blind Faitheist Creed, which you should recite at least daily:

            I, the atheist, recite my blind faith:

            1. That the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything.
            2. That life magically sprang forth from non-life when lightning hit some mud.
            3. That minds and morals evolved from molecules through monkeys.
            4. That there is no God, and I hate Him.

            Have a great day, TwoRutRoad!

          • TwoRutRoad

            I’m going to try a couple simple logical statements, and you see if I’m on the right track.

            #1 MP
            Premise 1; If Mary is a virgin, then she cannot have a baby.
            Premise 2: Mary had a baby.
            Conclusion: Therefore, Mary is not a virgin.

            #2 MT
            Premise 1: If you followed the science and logic where it leads you, and were intellectually honest, then you would be a pro-life atheist.
            Premise 2: You are not a pro-life atheist.
            Conclusion: Therefore, you do not follow the science and logic where it leads you, and you are not intellectually honest.

            Your support of ComeOnPeople is touching, but she deserves criticism. Here is a quote from her on another discussion: “The other night you could look straight through the moon and see clouds behind it. If it were solid then that would not be possible.” I would love to see the logic of this explained.

            The Atheist Creed could use revising, but it’s close. For the first two items, I prefer “I don’t know” to “God did it” for a couple reasons, which I’m sure you have already heard. For the third item, just removing “through monkeys” would help. On the last item, I cannot hate what does not exist.

            I’ll close with this thought: I’m not a highly educated person, but I’m not stupid. Just because a person is educated, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they are smart. To me, what’s true is true, and there can’t be different versions of the truth. Furthermore, I’m quite happy and and I have good morals, without the promise of paradise or the threat of hell.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “#1 MP
            Premise 1; If Mary is a virgin, then she cannot have a baby.
            Premise 2: Mary had a baby.
            Conclusion: Therefore, Mary is not a virgin.”

            Right. This is a logically sound argument based on modus tollens. The first premise is, however, presuppositional on naturalism. If God exists, then Premise 1 is false and overtly restricted.

            “#2 MT
            Premise 1: If you followed the science and logic where it leads you, and were intellectually honest, then you would be a pro-life atheist.
            Premise 2: You are not a pro-life atheist.
            Conclusion: Therefore, you do not follow the science and logic where it leads you, and you are not intellectually honest.”

            This logic is unsound because you have a conjunctive conditional. Thus, applying modus tollens to this only requires negation of one of the premises. Furthermore, it does not apply to our conversation because I am not an atheist – you are. So, the argument was directed at you, or at me in my past.

            I could change the consequent to “pro-life Christian,” but the ‘god’ of Christianity is not science.

            The quote you gave me from ComeOnPeople is irrelevant to our discussion on the human body and its design or lack thereof. You threw an illogical strawman at her – it is that simple.

            “For the first two items, I prefer “I don’t know” to “God did it” for a couple reasons”

            Those are not “God of the gaps” fallacies – they are inferences from the best scientific evidence, coupled with simple logic, that we have available. The first creedal point is the negation of the first premise in the Kalam Cosmological Argument, using purely secular data, and the second creedal point can be addressed through the fine-tuning argument or anthropological argument – based on purely secular data. “I don’t know” should really be replaced by “I don’t want to know.” 🙂

            “For the third item, just removing “through monkeys” would help.”

            Agreed – but the alliteration is awesome – you must admit! 🙂

            “On the last item, I cannot hate what does not exist.”

            You would need to support your burden of proof for stating “what does not exist.” As an atheist, you have a burden to bear there – you are not claiming to be an agnostic, are you? Furthermore, there is scientific evidence to support the 4th creedal point:

            https://winteryknight .com/2015/05/22/study-explores-whether-atheism-is-rooted-in-reason-or-emotion-3/#comments

            Excerpts:

            “At first glance, this finding seemed to reflect an error. How could people be angry with God if they did not believe in God? Reanalyses of a second dataset revealed similar patterns: Those who endorsed their religious beliefs as “atheist/agnostic” or “none/unsure” reported more anger toward God than those who reported a religious affiliation.”

            “The most striking finding was that when Exline looked only at subjects who reported a drop in religious belief, their faith was least likely to recover if anger toward God was the cause of their loss of belief. In other words, anger toward God may not only lead people to atheism but give them a reason to cling to their disbelief.”

            “I’m not stupid”

            I never said you were.

            “Just because a person is educated, it doesn’t necessarily follow that they are smart.”

            I might replace “smart” with “wise,” but, yes, I agree 100%. There are many educated idiots out there, if that makes sense.

            “To me, what’s true is true, and there can’t be different versions of the truth. ”

            I commend you on your objectivism. In fact, I highly commend you.

            “Furthermore, I’m quite happy and and I have good morals, without the promise of paradise or the threat of hell.”

            I did too.

            But, you misunderstand the Moral Argument for the Existence of God. It does not say that atheists cannot behave morally or that one needs to believe in God to behave morally, even the Bible confirms that, but does “good” actually exist, in an objective sense, on atheism?

            Premise 1: If there is no God, then objective moral values do not exist.
            Premise 2: Objective evil exists.
            Conclusion 1: Therefore, objective moral values DO exist.
            Conclusion 2: Therefore, God exists.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Well, it looks like I brought a knife to a gun fight. I have to admit, I’ve never felt this foolish. I love a challenge, and I love to learn and I can see that I have a lot to learn.

            Maybe my ways of putting things don’t technically follow the rules, but people tend to know what I mean, or they ask me to clarify some part of it. It’s normal, everyday conversation and discussion, IMHO.

            When I consider everything I know about religion, the bible, and all the rest of it, I see zero evidence to support it, and a lot of reasons to think it’s not true. Is it possible? Yes. But then so is Paul Bunyan, or Thor. Why am I so awful for not believing in something that is so far-fetched? In your Moral Argument for the Existence of God, if you replace the word God with Leprechaun, it has the same validity for me. Mere words cannot prove the existence of either.

            I am not angry with God. If he existed, THEN I would probably be angry with him. I am, however, angry with many religious people because of the things they say and do in the name of their religion or their god. Frightening children with threats of hell, for example should be treated as abuse. I taught my kids to be good people for the sake of being good. There was no god involved, only love, compassion, understanding, and trust. I don’t understand why that can’t be good enough.

            There. That’s how I communicate. A little of my own brand of logic and reasoning with a little emotion thrown in.

            I thank you for the back-and-forth we shared, and for the lessons learned. You addressed everything I said, complimenting or criticizing as you saw fit. I wish I could have done the same, but as I said, I brought a knife to a gun fight, and was outgunned. Still…now that I’m thinking about it, the people in the twin towers were outgunned as well. That fact in no way diminishes their worth. I think I feel a little better now.

            Take care, and don’t let your meatloaf or your rump roast. I’ll see you around, I’m sure.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Well, it looks like I brought a knife to a gun fight.”

            That’s OK – you at least brought a weapon – a quest for objective truth. That makes you the best kind of atheist!

            “It’s normal, everyday conversation and discussion, IMHO.”

            Yes, I agree 100%, and I am not trying to force you to put all of your conversations in predicate logic form, must less symbolic logic. However, I want you to see that when you put forth reasonable premises – legitimate jabs at Christianity, the conclusions need to be more modest, in that they satisfy loose logic at the least.

            So, for instance, the fact that the human body fails is no warrant against a God-Designer, because there could be a whole number of reasons for that design, even on omnipotence, omniscience, etc. And, even if you think that God could have done better, you are assuming the potential for a better “God,” in effect, you are stealing from God to make your point.

            “When I consider everything I know about religion, the bible, and all the rest of it, I see zero evidence to support it”

            You really see no evidence for God? Would you like for me to lay out a few lines of evidence, without going into the formal logic?

            “In your Moral Argument for the Existence of God, if you replace the word God with Leprechaun, it has the same validity for me.”

            Yes, I agree that it does not matter what we call this Basis or Grounding of objective moral values and duties. But, It is still a transcendent Basis for these things, Great Leprechaun or not. 🙂

            “Mere words cannot prove the existence of either.”

            I agree 100%. I am an evidentialist – science, philosophy, and logic.

            “If he existed, THEN I would probably be angry with him.”

            If He existed, would you also thank Him for creating you, or at least creating an amazing universe in which you could exist?

            “I am, however, angry with many religious people because of the things they say and do in the name of their religion or their god.”

            Are you likewise angry at the atheist dictators of the 20th century for their mass murders?

            “Frightening children with threats of hell, for example should be treated as abuse.”

            I agree. I also think the worst form of child abuse is the mass killings of the preborn child every day.

            “I taught my kids to be good people for the sake of being good. ”

            I don’t believe that “good” exists on atheism, because there is no Ground for it. And I can quote a fair number of famous atheists who agree with me there – Dawkins, Provone, Ruse, etc.

            “There was no god involved, only love, compassion, understanding, and trust.”

            You might find it interesting to attempt to prove, rather formally, that these concepts you have listed – love, compassion, etc – exist on atheism. Those are not metrics that can be measured using objective naturalistic means. You might find yourself in the same boat that theists are when we are forced to prove that a non-material, spaceless, timeless Being exists.

            “Still…now that I’m thinking about it, the people in the twin towers were outgunned as well.”

            Oh, I pray you are not comparing Christians with Muslim extremists? The closest people we have to ISIS in America are the abortionists who knock off 3000 innocent humans in the womb each day.

            “Take care, and don’t let your meatloaf or your rump roast.”

            Love it – your sense of humor est tres bien! You are the best kind of atheist, TwoRutRoad, and I hope to catch you around too – keep up the great thinking!

            BTW, are you an engineer also, and do you like to watch debates?

          • Truth Teller

            Ok, you are pretty much striking out on this original idea. The statement was that if God made the human body why should he need help, because its a lousy design.

            Now, if we actually break down the statement then the first question I wold ask is to define “lousy” since that is the main point of the comment. So lets just assume he meant it is lousy because it is imperfect and destine to fail at a certain point. Then he does bring up a good point.

            If we assume God is perfect, then I think it is also fair to say that God was capable of designing a body that does not fail. In fact, a perfect design.

            Now given the above we can arrive at the following conclusion. God was capable of designing a perfect body that would not fail, and God designed a flawed body on purpose. So God designed weaknesses within the body to allow it to fail.

            Now the truth of the matter is this. We don’t know where we came from We just don’t know. People over thousands upon thousands of years have blindly put their faith in what they believe and were taught. But they didn’t know. It was faith that allowed people to believe in rain Gods and Sun Gods. In Greek Mythology. Every culture it seems had their own idea of a higher being. But like us, they didn’t know.

            So there you have it gentleman. Either Gods human designed was flawed and destine to fail on purpose, God is not perfect and makes mistakes or God did not design human being at all. So pick which you want to believe in .

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “The statement was that if God made the human body why should he need help, because its a lousy design.”

            Right, and that is why I asked TwoRutRoad to put his argument into logical form – to show him that his premises do not lead to his conclusion. Just as I am about to do with you, after a brief commercial.

            “Either Gods human designed was flawed and destine to fail on purpose, God is not perfect and makes mistakes or God did not design human being at all.”

            This is a false trichotomy. A design that is destined to fail is only “flawed” in the sense that it has a finite lifetime. TwoRutRoad made the claim that the human body is a “lousy design.” However, as an engineer, I can tell you that there is a huge difference between a lousy design and a finite lifetime design. The Space Shuttle was an example of both, the Saturn V was only an example of the latter.

            Unless you can prove that God had no good reasons to design finite lifespan bodies, an impossible task, then the first branch of your trichotomy fails. One possible reason for designing bodies that can fail is to allow for a punishment when those bodies are used outside of certain moral design constraints.

            Additionally, and again in the case of free will creatures, God MIGHT have designed the body to NOT fail when operating within certain design parameters, but due to the choices of His creatures, sin entered the universe, death reigned, and bodies failed.

            Just as God could not violate the laws of logic by creating free will creatures who were forced to choose Him, so too could His creatures find a way to use His bodies outside of the design parameters and cause a punishment to fall on them. It is certainly POSSIBLE that this is what happened, and that is all we need to defeat this argument – possibility. This idea is fairly consistent with a doctrine of the Fall in Christian theism, BTW.

            The design of the human body is also consistent with the theory of theistic evolution, not that I hold such a view. Perhaps God created aliens to design human bodies, and they designed us for their own purposes. (“To Serve Man” :-)) The possibilities are endless, and the rank arrogance of the atheist to narrow God by such limitations is quite stunning.

            Finally, NONE of these considerations would lead to a conclusion that God does not exist even IF the human body evolved in a purely naturalistic sense. And the blind faith to believe that even a protein could evolve by chance and time, much less an eye, makes playing the lottery look like a sure thing by comparison.

            If you feel I am in error, please feel free to put your argument into premise-conclusion form, as I asked TwoRutRoad to do. You will see that it is much easier to construct strawmen than good logical arguments.

          • ratamacue76 ✓ᵈᵉᵖˡᵒʳᵃᵇˡᵉ

            Very nice rebuttal!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Thanks, Ratamacue!

            Not in your league, but not bad pour moi. 🙂

          • ratamacue76 ✓ᵈᵉᵖˡᵒʳᵃᵇˡᵉ

            I’m not sure what you’re talking about; it was excellent!!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Even a old dog has his day, I guess!

          • Mark982

            Why do you say what you did. God created all and that includes the ability to learn, which doctors do. In this case they used their knowledge to help ComeonPeople!

          • TwoRutRoad

            I say these things mainly because God gets all the credit for the good things, but takes no responsibility for the bad. If he created all, then that includes failing eyes, deafness, cerebral palsy, and poison ivy.

          • Mark982

            Man was created perfect but fell from grace through disobedience to God. None of those bad diseases would have happened otherwise. God did not create evil. Evil is the absence of God.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Didn’t God cause the fall from grace? He knew all along what was going to happen and how his imperfect creations would act. It was a set-up.

            But I’m not talking about evil, I’m talking about disease, poisonous plants, those kinds of things. Who created those? When and why were they created?

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Liberals are against science and morality. Medicine should always save, not kill. The basics. The Judeo-Christian value alone stands for everyone’s life and also for judicial justice because it is based on the Word of God. All others kill and harm the innocent one way or another. Christianity alone has salvation and sane morality and civility.

    • uninvitedguest

      Chrisitanity is NOT needed for morality and civility. How absurd. I love how you think christians have the market cornered on everything. Sorry but there are many, many people out there who have no use for your religion but do have morals and are nice people. Conservative such as yourself are the ones against science.Look it up

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are wrong. Pagans enslave women and children and the Western secularism corrupts mankind into prostitutes and playboys. Christianity alone provides salvation and makes mankind civilized.

        • uninvitedguest

          The only thing enslaving people today is your version of religion. Just like when you committed genocide agaisnt the original Americans, native indians. There is zero need for religion except in your mind and at church. Your god doesnt exist and there no proof. Christianity provides nothing more than division and indoctrination….you are a great example.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. The Natives in the American continents were fighting against each other already. Every tribe including the English was battling against each other for a long time. The white Christian English established the best nations on earth for anyone to live, and they spread the truth, literacy, lawfulness, medicine, civility, and all other vital useful things all over the world. Many of the natives assimilated into the main population as they do everywhere on earth when they contact with some stronger tribes. Christianity is the truth that made primitive Europeans civilized. USA did not exist if no Christianity. Today’s Americans are immoral because they lost Christian values. The Westerners need Christianity to get saved and be good.

          • uninvitedguest

            The native americans were forced into slavery and on to reservations. Their lands were taken and many died due to diseases brought by your precious englishmen. Stop while you can because you are making yourself look extremely foolish.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God punishs civilizations when their evil is full by water or fire or other tribes. USA will be taken away from the English people because Americans became immoral by becoming godless. God reigns, not the English people. Everyone is a sinner and needs to repent of one’s own sins to get saved. You should leave USA if you hate the English people.

          • uninvitedguest

            I was born here and have no intention of leaving. I don’t hate anyone. I do, however, know that they caused widespread death among the native americans. Again, you have zero understanding of America and it shows with every post. Co.e back to reality…..America will NEVER be the theocracy you crave. This isnt the middle east.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Native Americans massacred the white people, too. Wars killed all sides. You guys are bad descendants as long as you live in the USA. Give up your land altogether and leave or stop sitting fattened in the comfort zone your hard-working pioneering forefathers have created. You are sinning against God and the native Americans and the white pioneers just by living in USA. Europe and America are a theocracy; their flags and anthems and founding documents and charters and independence declarations all say that the Westerners would submit to God alone. As for the world, no submission to the Western pervs.

          • uninvitedguest

            You are woefully lacking in your understanding of the USA. This country will never be a theocratic state. Thats what islam is in the middle east. Native americans were only fighting back against the english invaders of THEIR LAND. You will never understand America as you dont even live here. Keep your ridiculous notion of theocracy in your own country.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            USA is a theocracy. Read Mayflower Compact, the national anthems, national pledge, the Declaration of Independence, and even your currency. It all says Americans submit to God alone. Americans don’t submit to atheists or sexual pervs. There were the Spanish and the French and others, not just English tribes as there were many different Mongolian tribes in America. The Chinese are Mongoloid and therefore USA belongs to China, if that’s what you want. Only the Christian English could make great nations where every Earthling wants to make a home.

          • uninvitedguest

            I think you are completely ignorant of the USA. Your invisible sky man has zero to do with anything other than you and those who believe in him. You need to actually read the history of America as you are just spouting pure nonsense. Where does any of our founding documents say that we submit to your god? Nope. Your overt ignorance is amazing. Get off your mommy’s computer as I believe you to be a young child with no grasp of what it means to live in America

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            America has no history other than Christianity’s victories. Americans got everything from the British. Later, the atheists polluted the nation and the planet – the summary of US history.

          • uninvitedguest

            Now I’m laughing at your ignorance. christianity’s victories? You must be joking! This post only proves that you understand nothing about America. Try reading a real book and put your collection of bronze age stories away, you might actually learn something. You’ve probable never even been to America have you? Just more inane nonsense

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            America is nothing if you don’t have Christianity. America only has immorality, apart from Christianity. Immorality destroys a nation, never creates one. Christianity created a lot of excellent nations through the British. Get it.

          • uninvitedguest

            This has never been a “christian nation”. If you knew ANYTHING about America you would know that we are a land of many faiths and belief systems. christianity doesnt make a nation, its people do. There isnt now and never has been a christian theocracy. You are so indoctrinated to your book of fables that you cant see the forrest for the trees. America is till the greatest nation on earth and always will be with or without your antiquated religious beliefs. Get a book on American history and read it……you wont find anything about a theocracy in it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans were always Christian and that’s why you guys can read and write, to start with. You are too young and don’t read books and that’s why you don’t understand. Everything in USA declares Americans trust and submit to God alone; that’s theocracy.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            You do know that the oldest written language is 3300 to 3000 BC years old, right? Look it up, Sumerian. See way before your Christians.

            Read some other books then your bible, then maybe you learn a thing or two.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Moses is 3500 BC. So he is earlier. The Hebrews beat all Earthlings regarding memories and accuracy of records.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Oh yeah, I forgot, you only believe your bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Nothing is wiser and better and more vital than the Holy Bible. You need it, too.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            My father is so much wiser and better.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Your father got the wisdom and goodness from Christianity. He’s a Roman Catholic.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Whatever you want to believe, fine by me.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You said that he is a Roman Catholic.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Yeah he believed what his parents told him, but then he got wiser and better and realised what a fool he was believing in the devil and hell.

          • uninvitedguest

            christianity has zero to do with anything other than those who believe it. I have a graduate degree…yourself? No. Nothing in the USA declares anything about your god. Read abook and get educated. Your post indicate that you have a very skewed view of America. In fact, you know nothing about us. You are just a wanna be American

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. You have a false education and are Non-American. Your degree means nothing because your capitalization is wrong in the grade 3 level. Christians created the USA but the USA got rotten after wasting God’s blessings. I love America because I respect the Puritan Americans, and American missionaries and soldiers sacrificially rescued Asia my home countries from tyranny, and I also like the American Christian theologians and friends. I know America very well.

          • uninvitedguest

            You are sadly mistaken as usual. My degree means nothing? LOL! I have dedicated my life to the care and treatment of critically ill children…yourself? Didnt think so. You have no idea what America is really about or you wouldnt be making the inane comments that you do. Its sad actually watching you flounder around trying to convince others of your knowledge of America. You should try reading up on the history of the USA as you know very little about it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I don’t think you know medicine, either. You are not much help to children because secular Westerners corrupt children’s morality and therefore are destructive. You need Christianity to be saved and do good.

          • uninvitedguest

            Tell that to my patients and you will be proven wrong. Just as you are wrong about anything and everything American. I do not want or need your twisted religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West imposes on mankind blasphemy and infanticide and suicide and homosexuality if the civilization has no Christianity. Christianity is the West’s lifeline as it is to all.

          • uninvitedguest

            Its not my lifeline and never has been. Its nothing more than man made indoctriation. Its not needed except by you. Its just a personal choice of belief. Why havent you and yours been able to pray away suicide, infanticide, homosexuality, etc? Why not ….because its all nonsense made up by bronze age goat herders.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not seeing things correctly or have understanding. Godlessness is stupidity. ( Proverbs ch.1-3) Christian West was blessed by God by having Biblical principles but they became powerful and corrupted themselves over time and now they impose immoral falsehood upon mankind out of boredom. It’s a new kind of slavery. Christians pray and work for justice and peace, but unjust tyrants have to be fought against as well. Freedom is not free. Things are on a process until Lord Jesus returns.

          • uninvitedguest

            THe only slavery going on is mental enslavement by your religion

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christianity alone frees slaves and no other can. Read Frederich Douglass. De-christianized West is trying to enslave mankind by homosexuality this century. Enough of rich men’s warped amusement and mental illness on earth.

          • uninvitedguest

            christianity is slavery of the mind. its useless and has no place in society except in church and in your own mindd

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Christianity liberates and educates everyone properly. Christianity is the truth that it alone can defeat the Western Sodomism this century. All others either hate the Westerners or get enslaved by the Westerners. Both are wrong.

          • uninvitedguest

            Nope. christianity = mental enslavement. The educational system is responsible for educating children and adults. Cupcake, homosexuality is here to stay and has been here for centuries. Live and let live but that isnt your mantra is it?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Christianity is truth and truth is freedom. Sin is slavery. Pre-christian = illiteracy and barbarism. Post-christian = blasphemy, infanticide, and Sodomy. God destroys every Sodom. ( Jude ch.1)

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Uhm, we have separation of church and state, hence Europe isn”t and never will be a theocracy. I do know that fundemantalist Christians like you wished it was the other way around.

            You should really read up on Native American history. I can lend you some books, got about 20 about their history, culture, etc.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The European nations are a theocracy, too. Read their anthems and national documents and the their national flags. Read Magna Carta. Europe wiped out their native tribes without trace and that’s why they had no records of them. Unlike other nations and stronger tribes, Americans left the natives by protecting their rights and giving out the land; Americans are far better than other nations and major tribes who wipe out weaker others upon overpowering. Yes, read books. Why didn’t you adopt the native culture if they are so precious to you?

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Whatever your delusional mind tells you. Be happy in your little Christian bubble. This secular nation is very happy, no need for theocracy. Oh by the way, the Dutch flag has three stripes red, white, blue. The Belgium flag, black, yellow, red, the french has stripes too, the German flag too, so no idea what the flag has to do with theocracy, or their anthems, documents. Those things don’t make a nation a theocracy, maybe you wished they did, too bad.

            Why don’t you move to a Muslim country if theocracy is so precious to you?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Europe is Christian; the crosses and Christian emblems even show the reality. Europe and America recognize dignity, honor, and freedom only under God. Without God, the West only seeks suicide and immorality. The Muslims despise the West because the Western culture is too immoral. All Earthlings need Christianity to obtain the truth and civility. All the tribes you talk about coverted to Christianity because Christianity is superior. Pagan Europe sucked the natives they have no records, I told you.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            The Muslims despise the West because the Western culture is too immoral.

            And still, they come to the West. I think they don’t despise it that much, do they?

            So,symbols, emblems, make a nation a theocracy? Right! Keep dreaming.

            Those tribes where here in Europe, before we where, so Native tribes. It’s the same in the US, the Indian tribes where there before any white person set foot on land, so Native tribes.

            And if you talk about the first human, which you think are Adam and Eve, there is plenty of information about them. But then again, you believe the bible, not evolution.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            #1 – Western Christians created the best nations to live on earth.
            #2 – Study the history of your homeland. They were Christian. When the Westerners talk about Eastern spirituality, they are hedonists.
            #3 – White tribes are natives, too. The natives are not Indian but Mongoloid.
            #4 – Evolution never happened and never observed and its possibility is zero. Creation possibility is 100%.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            1 whatever your delusional mind tells you.
            2 Maybe, but luckily not anymore.
            3 So, now you admit they are.
            4 Your God never happened and never observed and it’s possiblilty is zero.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            1 – Western nations are better-off because of Christian legacy. 2 – Your homeland is going down by God’s wrath if you don’t repent. 3 – You guys are being bad descendants. Your origin is Iran. 4 – God created everything; the evidence is everywhere.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            1 so you admit that you’re delusional
            2 My homeland is doing just fine.
            3 /
            4 what evidence?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You should seek the truth instead of hating the Christians, Jolanda.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            I don’t hate Christians, I just don’t like people like you, fundemantal Christians.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christian fundies are the only ones who truly love you and benefit you. All others are deceiving you, including yourself.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            ROFLMAO!!!!!! Again, whatever your delusional mind tells you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Face the reality which you don’t like.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Which reality? Yours? No thanks!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Word of God to find Christ your Saviour. Immorality only destroys you and never save you.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            *sighs**shakes head* You just don’t get it, do you? No worries, keep dreaming.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jolanda, you need salvation. Read Romans ch.10.

          • uninvitedguest

            grace, you need an education on America.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Not just on America, Europe too.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Europe was Christian, too. You just forgot everything because of the inclination to abnormal immorality.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Stop bullying. I was talking with Jolanda here. Americans don’t bully colored people and women, okay? I wish you guys were still racists instead of baby-killing perv supporters.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            What? Don’t like it when someone else answers? Can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Are you also univitedguest? Stop coming by a group, you bullies.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Oh man, almost spilled my tea, had to laugh so hard. This is a discussion site, you think I’m the only one with the same opinions. I could ask you the same are you Amos too, or worldgonecrazy?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            We don’t attack you together, but you do with your friends. You need to stop such a practice.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Aaaawwww, do we hurt your feelings? Well now you know how we feel when fundemantal Christians like you say that Atheists are murderers, perverts, filthy, immoral, etc. Karma is a bitch, deal with it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            There is no karma; there is only God’s justice and providence and sovereignty. You Westerners have become stupid by talking like Eastern spiritualists. Atheists are indeed evil because they oppress religious moral people. You need God’s truth.

          • Bob Johnson

            My vote is that she is the flat-earther ComeOnPeople!

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Oh yeah, forgot that one.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Isaiah mentions the earth in the shape of a circle. The Earth indeed looks flat to the planet’s residents because it is too big to consider round. I saw a landscape that looked like the ocean – vast and flat. I always wondered why there is the vast space with heavenly bodies beyond humanity’s reach instead of just the sky and the land. Praise the name of the Lord. The wonders of God’s universe testifies Him.

          • uninvitedguest

            I have never bullied anyone. Its an open forum. Cant stand the heat…get out of the kitchen.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, you are bullying me by attacking me as a group here. See now Jolanda is gone. Can’t you guys become a little nice to some others, ever? Grow up. It’s so tragic to encounter the Post-christian Westerners. You guys have no goodness or manners after losing the Christianity. Just continous bullying. Secularism = No respect

          • uninvitedguest

            No, I dont have any respect for you. There has been no bullying. You just cant handle opinions that differ from your own, You need to grow up and understand that not everyone follows your book of fables.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Word of God is the truth.

          • uninvitedguest

            proof???

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Post-christian West’s evil. Pre-christian is barbaric and Post-christian is Sodomic. Both kill human babies. Christianity alone brings salvation and light and life and hope.

          • uninvitedguest

            LOL! BLAH, BLAJ, BLAH,BLAH

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I know and love America more than you do. America is not at all important comparing to Christianity.

          • uninvitedguest

            Do you live here? No. Have you served this nation in any capacity? No. I do and I have. I love my country. christianity means little to nothing compared to this country. Read a book and educate yourself.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You know nothing important about your country. USA will be gone tomorrow because God punishes every evil empire, but Christianity is forever because the truth prevails. Read Isaiah ch.40.

          • uninvitedguest

            Strange, Ive lived here my entire life and have studied our history. You are the one who knows nothing of the USA. christianity is but one of many religions that have been around for centuries…you’re not special

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You’ve been brainwashed by the liberals. Nazi Youth did not know about Germany their fatherland, either. It’s a similar thing. Only the Christians understand Europe and America properly. You have no connection with your white Christian ancestors.

          • uninvitedguest

            Sorry hon but I’m not a liberal. THe Nazi youth did know their country. Sorry sugar but religion isnt needed to know and understand my country of birth. You are an American wannabe and nothing more.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Don’t call me sugar or cupcake. Yes, I love America and want to be American, but I can defend America as an outsider better for now. Nazi youth, atheistic Communists, and secular Westerners do not know history. Cain’s tribes typically don’t study history. God’s people keeps history.

          • uninvitedguest

            Listen up sugar, there are no nazi youth nor atheistic communists. I know US far better than you. Your religion isnt needed to learn about the history of this nation. Its a shame you dont know anymore than you do, cupcake.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans are only immoral if they have no Christianity, and Americans need Christianity to obtain truth and life and to do what is right.

          • uninvitedguest

            chrisitanity isnt needed by anyone.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Everyone needs Christianity for salvation and to be good. Non-christian West forces homosexuality upon the world and funds infanticide and suicide in the world.

          • uninvitedguest

            if you need the threat of eternal torture for morality, I feel sorry for you. Nobody is forcing homosexuality on anyone.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, USA funds homosexuality and infanticide in the world. If USA wants to go down, she should go down by herself, without dragging other poor nations. You don’t know anything about the world because the gentle Church fed you and protected you for all your life.

          • uninvitedguest

            The church has never fed nor protected me in any sense. Nobody “funds” homosexuality. That doesnt even make sense.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, the Church rescued you and fed you; you are being ungrateful by not-remembering. Western nations push abortion and homosexuality and nudism into the world.

          • uninvitedguest

            This is even more proof that you have no understanding of America. We are a nation of many faiths, not just yours cupcake. Btw…whats wrong with being nude? You must be ashamed of your body.

          • uninvitedguest

            Not brainwashed by liberals anymore than youve been brainwashed by your version of religion. Too funny sugar! christians dont know anymore or any less than any other person.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Believing in truth is not brainwashing but a freedom. Western secularism is full of falsehood and sins; it is an indoctrination by evil. Christianity is true and good and brings life and justice to everyone.

          • uninvitedguest

            You’re indoctinated by your religion. Period. Too funny

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            My religion is right. Americans are immoral when they have no Christianity. Post-christian West is the mega grand proof in the entire universe that Christianity is eternally true and good.

          • uninvitedguest

            Americans are better off without christianity. Its a fable used to scare kids and adults into being good

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans can’t live apart from Christianity. Christianity is America’s only sane conscience.

          • uninvitedguest

            Many, many, many Americans live without christianity. It supplies nothing but division and nonsense

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            That’s why USA is being over. Its money and weapon will be used against itself if USA does not repent soon. Man cannot live on money; he needs God’s truth.

          • uninvitedguest

            The USA isnt over…lol. love the histrionics! You are so ignorant about America. We are the most powerful nation on earth and all of it withot your god. Funny that

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            why did you change your comment?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I was developing my thought. You have to wait sometimes, Jolanda.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            And changed this too?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, read them again. I re-read your comments as well. Make them more complete.

          • Amos Moses

            you hate christians ………..

          • Amos Moses

            “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free .”
            – Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, truth is freedom. Secular Westerners are programmed to hate their ancestors who were morally far better than themselves.

    • TwoRutRoad

      Judicial justice is not based on the word of god. The first three commandments, if made into law, would violate the Constitution. If the 10th commandment were a law, the entire population would be in jail.

      And kindly explain to me how the cannibalistic ritual eating the body of Jesus is moral? It’s completely horrible and makes me gag.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Yes, the West’s lawfulness therefore of the entire world’s is based on the Holy Bible. Paganisms are barbaric and today’s secular Western culture is abnormally immoral. Anyone who hurts fellow humans based on the 10th commandment gets jailed throughout the world. No Bible = No civility. The communion is symbolic and is about the believers’ oneness with Lord Jesus; it is the followers of Jesus who made the demon-worshipers and pagan cannibals repent and become civilized everywhere on earth, although no one else cared about them. You must repent of your evil unbelief first to become human again. Jesus said, “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.” (John ch.6)

        • uninvitedguest

          THe only thing in this country based on your bible is your religion. Nothing more, THis is not a christian nation but instead a nation of many faiths and beliefs. Your version of America is much like that of Nazi Germany……..very dangerous.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Christianity is everything excellent about the Western civilization thus about the entire planet. You have nothing good apart from Christianity. Nazis massacred the Jews and secularists massacre the unborn children. Christianity provides mankind the truth, life, light, and hope. Christianity saves though all others destroy.

          • uninvitedguest

            This is just more proof that you know nothing about America. The American people are the best part of America…..not your religious beliefs.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans are immoral if they don’t have Christianity. It’s like a man without a proper conscience. You guys need Judeo-Christian values to be human.

          • uninvitedguest

            The only mental slaves are the religious such as yourself. Religion is not needed to be human. You are the hopeless one. Religious indoctrination = mental slavery.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God is the only rightful Owner of mankind and His Word is the truth. Following God’s truth is not indoctrination but the only good and right thing for all mankind. Western secularism blasphemes against God and kills human babies and forces abnormal immorality. Christianity honors God and protects everyone’s life and promotes holiness and purity because it is the truth.

          • uninvitedguest

            Your make believe deity doesnt exist much less own anyone. Your inane ramblings are that of a mere child.

  • james blue

    This site does not allow links, search “Alyson Draper”

    Quote –“I had to have a late-term abortion. It was the worst moment in my life,” the corporate attorney wrote. “What made it even worse was the State of Utah had made it illegal. I had one dead twin. The other had severe Spina Bifida and would only have lived with life support, in
    great pain, for a few days.”

    • TwoRutRoad

      As a parent, I cannot imagine the heartache. 🙁

      This type of situation needs to be discussed and dealt with by the parents and the doctors. Some will say it’s merciful to abort. Others will say it’s murder. Others will say it’s selfish to let it live. You and I cannot know the pain. The problem comes, IMHO, when the church dictates the answers. Especially the catholic church. What do nuns and priests know about a parents love for their children?

      • james blue

        People should also google “Savita Halappanavar”

      • Amos Moses

        The church does not dictate the answer ……….. Christ does ………..

        • TwoRutRoad

          And it is He who causes miscarriages. Abortion by God.

          • Amos Moses

            God allows evil …. men commit evil ….. you commit evil …. and you know you do …. now to be honest …. with the “progressive” idea that abortion is a right ….. no telling how many who would support “progressive” ideas have been murdered right along side those little ones …… and since you support abortion … that means you are a racist ……..

            miscarriage is Gods protection ……. mostly that is due to DNA malformation …… but it is Gods right to remove it …. not ours …..

          • TwoRutRoad

            Where did I say I supported abortion? Don’t you put words in my mouth. I have friends who were adopted, and they would not be here if their mothers had chosen abortion.

            Why would God create a pregnancy that he knew would fail?

          • Amos Moses

            i am sure many of us have those same friends ………. and if i misread or misremembered you … mea culpa …….. but do you seriously expect me to tell why God does things ….. ok …. for our sanctification ………..

          • TwoRutRoad

            That’s a good answer, Amos, for those who believe. Sounds like a slick guy, this god. I do, however find it hard to believe that he needs to it it so often. Or, at all, for that matter. At least not anymore. How many million would you guess is enough?

          • Amos Moses

            Ahhhhh ….. poor A-theists …….. you find anything hard to believe ……… what a surprise …

          • TwoRutRoad

            And the religious believe by the billions what only a lunatic could believe by himself.

          • Amos Moses

            The christians believe what is self evident ….. the A-theist denies reality as a lunatic ……. and before he knows it …. he will be by himself ……… forever ………