Hillsong’s Brian Houston Says He Believes in Biblical Marriage, But Christians Shouldn’t ‘Dismiss’ Homosexuals’ ‘Desire to Pursue Happiness’

As Australians are soon set to participate in a postal plebiscite on the issue of same-sex “marriage,” Hillsong leader Brian Houston has issued a statement outlining that he believes the Bible clearly states that God created marriage to be between a man and woman, but also said that Christians shouldn’t condemn homosexuals and “dismiss their desire to pursue happiness.”

“For Christians, the issue is also a matter of faith and biblical teaching, something that should never be mocked or downplayed by those with opposing views,” Houston wrote. “I believe God’s word is clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. The writings of the apostle Paul in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality are also clear, as I have mentioned in previous public statements.”

He said that Christians who stand for God’s design for marriage are sometimes mischaracterized as bigots, but opined that homosexuals are also not respected by Christians sometimes either.

“Throughout this entire debate, some on both sides of the argument have failed to understand and respect the views of others,” Houston stated. “Some of those advocating for change to the definition of marriage have confused faith convictions with bigotry however they must understand that Christian—and other religious—beliefs are extremely important to those who hold them and in fact are vital to a tolerant and free society.”

“Sadly, some also use Christianity to alienate and even condemn those who are gay and dismiss their desire to pursue happiness,” he continued. “As a Christian pastor, I will always teach and preach according to Scripture and my personal convictions, but I cannot make other people’s choices for them. God created humanity with a free will, and I care about all people, including those who believe differently to me.”

Houston urged Christians to vote in the upcoming plebiscite, and said that no matter the outcome, Hillsong can “quite comfortably continue to function” as long as laws are not passed in Australia that would force them to compromise.

Click here to read the statement in full. 

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As previously reported, in 2014, Houston declined to give a give a concrete answer as to whether or not those who lead his American congregations may officiate at same-sex “weddings” as he was questioned about the matter at a press conference. Houston’s son Joel co-pastors Hillsong New York, and his son Ben leads Hillsong Los Angeles.

“For us, it’s easy to reduce what you think about homosexuality to just a public statement. And that would keep a lot of people happy,” Houston stated in part. “But we feel at this point it is an ongoing conversation, that the real issues in people’s lives are too important for us to just reduce it down to a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer in a media outlet. So we’re on the journey with it, aren’t we?”

Carl Lentz, who leads Hillsong New York with Houston’s son, had drawn concern when he told CNN that same year, “Jesus was in the thick of an era where homosexuality, just like it is today, was widely prevalent. And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.”

“It’s not our place to tell anyone how they should live,” his wife, Laura, added. “That’s their journey.”

“We’d never be the kind of church that when people join the choir, we ask them, ‘Are you heterosexual? Are you homosexual?’” Houston also told ABC’s “Nightline” (video below). “We’d be the kind of church that focuses on Jesus [and] believes in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict. I think it was Billy Graham who said, ‘It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge. And it’s our job to love.’”

In 2015, as public controversy erupted after it became known that two openly homosexual men were a part of Hillsong New York’s choir—and that the two had become “engaged” to each other—the men advised that the matter had “forced our church to globally reaffirm their hard stance as a non-LGBT-affirming institution and disallow any gays from being in a position of leadership within the church.” One of the men had served as a choir director.


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  • Amos Moses – He>i

    bad news Mr. Houston ….. whose father is a convicted pedophile ……. it aint about “happiness” …. love is not a feeling … it is a VERB ….. it is an ACTION ……… and “happiness” is not a means of salvation ………

    • Amen.

    • brucewang

      First of all, identifying the man’s father as a pedophile isn’t relevant to the man himself. Ever heard of Josh Duggar?

      As for the rest of it, you can’t survive this life if you’re unhappy. A lot of people find themselves in that position and commit suicide. So let’s look at what you are demanding of homosexuals for just a moment. We are talking about people who can only form lasting romantic and emotional bonds to people of the same gender. You are telling them they have to fall in love and get married to people of the opposite sex only, people whom they might very well get along with as friends but can never be more than that. If you’re promoting the “ex-gay” thing, well, that’s never been proven and in fact many of the people who have been through it say that all it really does is urge a life of celibacy. So you are in fact telling homosexuals that to be right with God, they must live a loveless and sexless life, which is essentially inflicting a life with no happiness. And you’re saying, bizarrely, that this somehow is what God wants.

      You are in other words putting homosexuals in an IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION. Yes, they can turn to God for many things. But God isn’t going to turn anyone from a homosexual to a heterosexual. That is impossible.

      Would you tell a straight person to live a loveless life if you thought your God demanded it?

      All I’m saying here is that you are demanding nothing less for homosexuals than a life free of romantic love. That is bizarre and cruel, and no wonder people stand up to you for it. Shame on you, and shame on Lady Checkmate for saying “Amen” in response.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        yes … it actually is …. because he covered for his father and it colors not only his presentation of the gospel ….. but it reflects the ERROR his father imparted to him as his father was also a supposed minister ………

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        “As for the rest of it, you can’t survive this life if you’re unhappy.”

        marriage is not about “happiness” ……….. sorry … FAIL ………..

        • brucewang

          Marriage? All right then, gay people have fought SO hard for the right to marry, to engage in monogamous relationships to please people like you and you don’t want to grant it to them. Fine. That still strands them in a place where your religion demands forced celibacy. Why should they follow your faith?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “All right then, gay people have fought SO hard for the right to marry, to engage in monogamous relationships”

            ummm … they fought for a lie ….. it is not marriage ….. homomarriage is not marriage …. and NO ONE ever stopped them from being monogamous ….. EXCEPT THEIR OWN NATURE ……peddle your propaganda elsewhere ………..

            “That still strands them in a place where your religion demands forced celibacy. ”

            sorry …. who is being “forced” ….. NO ONE ….. and IT NEVER WAS ……..

            “Why should they follow your faith?”

            i do not understand the question …..

          • brucewang

            I’m taking if you don’t like the Supreme Court ruling that basically made homosexual marriage 100% legit in this country. That’s a shame, because stomping your feet and saying it’s not marriage isn’t going to make any difference anywhere.

            And yes, you are enforcing celibacy on homosexuals. If you tell them they’re free to engage in sex with people of the opposite sex you’re just being cruel because that doesn’t work. Which is why they are called HOMOSEXUALS. Get it?

            And I still can’t believe you don’t think marriage is about happiness. What’s it about then?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            SCOTUS did no such thing …. see …. SCOTUS DOES NOT MAKE LAW ……….. and they had no authority to do what they did ….. and even if they did ….. it does not make homomarriage the same as marriage ……… makes no difference if i like it or not …. it is a lie …

            “And yes, you are enforcing celibacy on homosexuals. If you tell them they’re free to engage in sex with people of the opposite sex you’re just being cruel”

            i see …. so no “force” …. just insisting …. and thats “cruel” because they do not get to act whatever way they want …. so it is cruel to those who murder because we say they should not …….. RIIIIIIIIIIGHT ……………….

          • brucewang

            From Wikipedia:

            Obergefell v. Hodges is a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held in a 5–4 decision that the fundamental right to marry is guaranteed to same-sex couples by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

            So again, you can stick your tongue out at it and call it names and do all the tantrumish things you like, but it’s there in black and white and people of the same sex do get married now and it’s recognized legally. Sorry. Sucks to be you, I guess.

            If you try to tell homosexuals that the only sex they are allowed is to people they have no attraction to, then yes, “cruel” is the perfect word to use.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            blah, blah, woof, woof ….. they had no authority ………. and BTW …. what homosexuals do ….. is not sex ………… it is depravity ………..

          • brucewang

            What homosexuals do is what everyone else on earth does. But you want to use your religion to deny it to them.

            Fortunately, the courts make the laws and your church doesn’t. So blah blah woof woof on THAT. And PS:

            Obergefell v. Hodges is a landmark United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held in a 5–4 decision that the fundamental right to marry is guaranteed to same-sex couples by both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “What homosexuals do is what everyone else on earth does. But you want to use your religion to deny it to them.”

            nope … what homosexuals do is not sex … it is depravity and rebellion to authority ………. and no amount of sugar is going to turn the lie of homomarriage into marriage ……… L8TR …….

          • brucewang

            No, that is religious bigotry of the worst kind. What homosexuals do is exactly the same as what everyone else does.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … it is homosexual depravity and rebellion to authority ……… and just because “everyone else is doing it” ………. is the excuse of a four year old child in the same rebellion ……….. FAIL …….

          • brucewang

            Love is not depravity. You would not say such a bigoted thing about a straight couple.
            Homosexuals can get married. You can do nothing about it. I would say you lose. Sorry.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            depravity is what homosexuals do …. and sad to tell you …. what they do … IS NOT LOVE EITHER ……… FAIL ….. Love does no harm to another ….. BUT ALL the homosexual does is harm to themselves, their partners AND society in general …….. so not love and it is DEPRAVITY ……………

          • brucewang

            You have obviously and clearly never spoken to a homosexual then.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You have obviously and clearly never spoken to a homosexual then”

            so YOU are the judge of my christianity and my witness …. is that right ….

            love does no harm to another ….. BUT ALL the homosexual does is harm to themselves, their partners AND society in general …. and you do not dispute this ………. says it all ………..

          • brucewang

            You could sidestep all your posturing and platitudes and simply talk to a homosexual sometime. They will tell you all the same things science keeps screaming at you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. false science is not science … no matter how loud it is screamed …….. and you are making assumptions about me that you have no basis in reality to make ………

          • brucewang

            It’s all reality. It’s all science. It’s all proven. It has nothing to do with faith which is why so many people actually pay attention to it. But by all means keep hating.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “It’s all science. It’s all proven.”

            nope … it is not …….. there is much “science” that is false …. not everything labeled as science is science ……… and just because a scientist says something does not make it science ……………. and YES much of science YOU ACCEPT is FAITH …. because the truth is …. you have never confirmed any of what you have read as science ….. you JUST ACCEPT as a matter of FAITH that it is true ………. and you express that FAITH more than any christian …. what is faulty is what you put YOUR FAITH in ………. other men ………

            FYI ….. God CREATED science …. and if science does not comport to His truth …. then it is a lie and false science …………

          • brucewang

            No, God didn’t create science. Of course your faith teaches you that but what nonsense. Science is science, it has no need of deities, real or imagined.

            And when science IS wrong – which it is GLAD to be, since it just gets supplanted with better data and methodology – it is science itself that proves it so. Not religion.

            There is nothing about my belief in science that is faith. Faith is something I don’t have, nor would I ever turn to it for anything. When something is proven to be true with tests and so forth, then I believe it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Of course your faith teaches you that but what nonsense. Science is science, it has no need of deities, real or imagined.”

            you would not have any science without God who created a stable universe for it to be used in ……. without a stable universe there is not consistent results that could be obtained for any science ………. science is ONLY methodology …. it is neither right or wrong nor does it have any means of determining those things ……….. so your statements are in error ….. and all you have about science is FAITH …………

          • brucewang

            Science des not require God. Simply ask one of the millions of atheist scientists. Science is far more than methodology, we have cures to diseases because of science that God never gave us. We did that with science.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            science does not exist outside of God ………. and God gave us science to do what you claim He did not ……… “atheist scientists” …. oxymoron and contradiction in terms ………..

          • brucewang

            I assure you atheist scientists exist, and can effortlessly provide you with many examples.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            yeah … but still an oxymoron and a contradiction in terms … there is no science, true science, outside of God …. and to exclude God from the evidence is only ERROR …. now they might STUMBLE into the correct science from time to time …. but their results are suspect as they exclude part of the evidence …. excluding evidence leads to error ….. and that evidence they exclude is God ……

          • brucewang

            It isn’t an oxymoron. “Jumbo shrimp” is an oxymoron. “Same difference” is an oxymoron. But a scientist who doesn’t believe in a God makes complete sense. And they aren’t ANGRY at God either, as people like you often claim. They just don’t think there is a God there, they have several other ways to propose the nature of the world.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. a “scientist” who ignores the EVIDENCE …. is NOT a scientist ….. and an “A-theist scientist” IGNORES THE EVIDENCE of God …… and his observations are in error ….. and because he IGNORES THE EVIDENCE …… he is NOT A SCIENTIST ……. and that does NOT make any sense to call him what he is not …………

          • brucewang

            Amos: Atheists actually exist. I promise. There is no evidence of God, or everyone would be a theist.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “There is no evidence of God”

            is that a scientific or theological statement ………….

          • brucewang

            Scientific.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            okay, good … so now …. HOW do you demonstrate YOUR claim ……….. describe your experiment ……. where are your data runs and how did you perform this experiment to determine your results ….. what were the controls you had in place …… what data did you throw out and on what basis ….. where is your PEER REVIEWED STUDY ….. and who read that study and approved its publication and where can it be found …………… because you are claiming science …. this is the current scientific methodology science recognizes ….. show me what you have ………..

          • brucewang

            Do you understand how burden of proof works? If you’re the one saying it’s a demonstrated fact that God exists, then it’s up to you to prove it. And no one ever HAS, so unless you’re imbued with some special powers, I think you’re going to have a hard time with that. It’s up to you to prove God, not up to me to disprove what isn’t there.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you made a POSITIVE CLAIM of nonexistence …… that is YOUR CLAIM ….. how do you intend on PROVING YOUR CLAIM …………

          • brucewang

            I was right. You DON’T understand how burden of proof works.

            And even if you think you do, how do you account for the fact that so many people in this world aren’t Christians, or even theists?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Nope … YOU made a claim ……… yours is the EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM ….. where is your proof of nonexistence …. absence of evidence is NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE ……. WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE ……. where is your peer reviewed study ………. negative results … ARE STILL RESULTS …. where is yours ……………

          • brucewang

            It doesn’t work that way, I’ve already told you. You don’t understand burden of proof. I can make up any create you like, a fourteen-headed purple furry gargoyle and you can rightly ask me to produce evidence of it, and I wouldn’t say to you “prove to me it doesn’t”. Replace the furry gargoyle with God, that’s all you’re doing.

          • Bob Johnson

            Again brucewang said, “There is no evidence of God”

            If he had said there is no evidence for leprechauns, what kind of evidence could he produce to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that leprechauns do not exist? None, not possible. That does not mean that the default position is that leprechauns are real.

            To prove leprechauns are real only requires a few photos or maybe an interview on RTE with a group of leprechauns. Having talked to a guy in an Irish pub doesn’t provide all the proof required.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but he chose science as the basis of his claim ….. so the burden of proof is on him not me ……….

          • Bob Johnson

            “absence of evidence is NOT EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE ……. WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE”

            You are absolutely correct. I have no evidence for or against the existence of leprechauns. So the scientific position is agnostic. Just as brucewang made no prediction on the existence of God, I will make no prediction concerning leprechauns. You are welcome to believe the guy’s story in the pub. But I would suggest you don’t start spending that “pot o’ gold” until you actually have it in your hands

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … that is the position that IGNORES the evidence of God ……… and it is error ……..

          • Bob Johnson

            Well it there is solid evidence for God, then belief can not be “by faith alone.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            faith is not generated by man…… not faith that reveals God ….. it is a gift from God ……. God bestows the gift of faith on whom He chooses …….. so yes it is ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            there is solid evidence …. and it removes all excuses for ignoring God ………..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            here is the conversation as it occurred ….

            YOU:”There is no evidence of God”

            ME:”is that a scientific or theological statement ………….”

            YOU:”Scientific.”

            YOU are the one who CLAIMED SCIENCE as YOUR basis for YOUR CLAIM ….. but “I was right. You DON’T understand how burden of proof works.” …… and now YOU ARE A LIAR ………… and YOU HAVE NO PROOF of YOUR ERROR ………….. and you are in GRIEVOUS ERROR ……………

            youtube;com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

            change the ; to a .

          • brucewang

            It cannot be a theological statement because I do not subscribe to theology. Yes, it is a scientific statement to say there is no evidence of God. That brings us right back to square one. You have to provide evidence of your God. Do so, and I will believe.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but it IS a THEOLOGICAL statement ………… whether you “subscribe” to it OR NOT ………..

          • brucewang

            That’s you putting words in my mouth. That’s just you stamping your feet, you refuse to accept gay marriage even though it’s taking place worldwide now. You don’t like that there are atheists, so you state that atheists really do believe in God and are just rebelling against Him. So fine, you’re very good at holding your breath until your face turns blue, but it doesn’t make you right. If I don’t subscribe to theology, it isn’t possible for me to make a theological statement. The statement is based on logic, reason, science, all the things that require no God for them to be factual.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … stating “There is no evidence of God” is a THEOLOGICAL statement … again … whether you “subscribe to it or NOT …………

          • brucewang

            It’s not. Just like you can’t made a statement about demonology if you don’t believe in demons. You’ve lost this one – you have no logic.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            referring to God makes it a theological statement ….. so that is why i asked you to qualify if it was or not …………..

          • brucewang

            To clarify then, it was a simple statement of fact.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. facts have to be SUPPORTED by something …….. and you have FAILED to provide anything ………. other than your UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINION …..

          • brucewang

            It is a perfectly substantiated opinion, based on your complete inability to prove God exists. If you proved God, there’d be no more atheists. Why is this so hard for you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your denial of His existence does not negate His existence ……….. all of existence is proof of Gods existence ….. absence of evidence is not evidence of absence …….. Why is that so hard for you ……….

          • brucewang

            You still have no proof of His existence. That’s why they call it faith.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you have no proof of your assertion that He does not …… it is not my job to convince you of the truth ….. it is my job to PRESENT you the truth ………. that you desire in your own SELFISH SELF INTEREST to ignore the evidence ….. is not my problem ….. IT IS YOURS ….

          • brucewang

            What you are presenting to me is your faith and your opinion, and nothing that anyone can by any reasonable definition use as truth, facts, proof, etc. If you can see the pink unicorn and no one else can, it’s not up to them to prove it’s not there. It’s up to you to prove it is. That’s why I said you don’t understand burden of proof. You are welcome to look it up.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you do not know what faith is …. NOT CHRISTIAN faith ….. so you have no basis in knowledge to tell me what or even if it is ……….. FAIL …….

          • brucewang

            I know what Christian faith is. It’s putting your trust in Jesus Christ. If that’s wrong tell me how it’s wrong.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope ….. again ….. it is wrong because you are not telling WHERE that faith came from and what it means to put your trust in Him ……… you are saying words OUT OF CONTEXT ….. and WITHOUT CONTEXT you have no idea what you are talking about ………… now you may understand the English meaning of each word ….. but IN CONTEXT you have NO EARTHLY idea …………

          • brucewang

            Amos, I’ve attended church. I have read about Christianity. Christianity is following and living by the words of Jesus Christ. If you fight me on this point, I have to ask whether YOU are actually Christian.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ” I’ve attended church. ” ….. So What ………
            “I have read about Christianity.” ….. So What …..
            “Christianity is following and living by the words of Jesus Christ. ” ….. NOPE ………. WRONG ….. you have NO IDEA what you are talking about ….. i said ….. christianity is not some mere intellectual assent of a few biblical verses and saying you believe ….. that IS NOT what christianity is ….. and NEVER has been ….. except if you go to some easy-believism church of apostasy where they entertain goats ……….

          • brucewang

            I have a friend who’s a Lutheran pastor. I told him that you said “NOPE………WRONG”…….” to the statement that Christianity is following and living by the words of Jesus Christ, and he laughed and said you were likely a member of a cult.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            which SYNOD ….. look …. i do not care what your “lutheran pastor” said or “laughed” at …… that is irrelevant …. YOU do not know what christian faith is, what its source is, where it originates from ….. and SCRIPTURE defines that ….. not you OR your ELCA “pastor” …….

          • brucewang

            Missouri Synod. And I think he’s right, you are most likely a cult member for you to be fighting so hard against things that have been settled and proven for so long.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and then i am going to call Bull Roar on your Missouri Synod Claim for this person who PROBABLY does NOT even exist …… because i put myself somewhere between the Missouri and Wisconsin Synod ………. and if your so called pastor would like to take part in this discussion then i would be happy to hear from him …. or her ….. although MS would probably not be a her …….. but there are a few ……..

          • brucewang

            He has suggested not wasting time speaking to you. He says God doesn’t choose his “elect” – he says God wants people to go to him. And all I did was post a very common definition of a Christian as given in Webster’s Dictionary and you told me I was wrong, and that actually made him laugh. He heard what you said and is calling cult. So fine, you don’t believe him and he doesn’t believe you. Just like most Christians on this earth, the division between you becomes the thing that defines you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sure … i do not believe you …. Bull Roar …………

          • brucewang

            I don’t care.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            neither do i …………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            3 Reasons Why People Want You To Hate THEM

            Some people WANT you to hate them.

            1. They want you to hate them because THEY get oppression points. Being
            the victim is an accomplishment for them. People want you to hate them
            because it gives THEM significance. Believing they are hated is a
            fundamental part of their identity.

            2. They want you to hate them because if you do not, they would feel
            obligated to consider what you have to say. The respectful thing to do
            with people you disagree with is to engage them through an exchange of
            ideas that involve mutual respect and a sincere attempt to understand
            the others perspective. But they do not want to have to explain why
            kids do not need to have a mother AND a father or why a white woman can
            identify as a man but not an african american. They want to be able to
            do whatever they want to do and never feel “judged” for doing it. By
            telling themselves you are hateful relieves them of the need to defend
            what they are doing and their ideas from critique.

            3. They want to believe you hate them because THEY HATE YOU. That is
            the great irony here. They hate you because you believe there are ways
            to show love other than through approval. And if you hate them back, in
            their minds that somehow validates THEIR hatred of YOU. That is the
            nature of bitterness. The sad fact is, once you choose to hate someone,
            EVERYTHING they say or do is offensive to you. Even kindnesses will be
            interpreted in a way that allows them to think of it as hate. It could
            be they accuse you of hating them because THEY WANT YOU TO HATE THEM.
            ~ Joseph Backholm

            Nothing i can do about that ……….

          • brucewang

            Hate is a strong word and I use it carefully. I don’t hate people, I hate ignorance. I hate bigotry. I hate intolerance. Hate, to me, is telling homosexuals they don’t have the right to fall in love. You know, sort of like you are doing.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so as it said ….. you have to believe christians hate you … so it is okay for you to hate them back ….. and not have a rational discussion …… so then you are the victim ….. and you get victim points ……. and it is self imposed victimhood ………. and your definition of “love” and “hate” … is “love = approval” and “hate = disapproval” ……

          • brucewang

            Untrue, most Christians I know say nothing remotely like the things you say.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            because they are cowards or they are not christians …… liking people who do not tell you the truth is not hard ….. not telling the truth is not hard ………. so what else is new ……….

          • brucewang

            No True Scotsman fallacy. They are still Christians, one man’s opinion doesn’t negate that.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no such thing as an NTS is christianity …. does not apply …. false teachers and false believers are part of chriistainty …….

          • brucewang

            Christianity is not immune. In fact, Christians who have the nerve to tell other Christians they aren’t really Christians are the biggest and most basic of offenders of NTS. Why do you think they get off the hook just because they’re Christians? Are they magically free of the rules of logic?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            McDonalds is immune … Burger King is immune ….. christianity is immune ……… sorry … FAIL …… christians and SCRIPTURE define what a christian is and who is and WHO IS NOT …..

          • brucewang

            You asked about NTS. It’s about LOGIC. So none of those places is
            immune. You want examples? Just form a sentence starting with the
            words “No TRUE burger chain…” and you’ll have it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. i did not ASK … YOU brought it up ….. and IT DOES NOT APPLY …… christians define who is a christian and SCRIPTURE DEFINES what that is ….. not some idiotic idea of what “logic” may apply ….. and YOU as a NON-CHRISTIAN ….. DO NOT ………

          • brucewang

            You asked about No True Scotsman. You said it doesn’t apply to Christians, which is nonsense. When you tell other Christians they aren’t Christians, you are guilty, guilty, GUILTY of NTS because it shows you’re using nothing more than your own opinion to define them, and in the process you completely ignore the possibility that YOU are the one doing un-Christian things.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You asked about No True Scotsman”

            you brought it up ….. you cannot even be HONEST about this conversation ………….

          • brucewang

            You are the one being dishonest. Please explain why the NTS fallacy magically doesn’t apply to Christians. What makes you exempt from reason and logic?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            your distorted view of what that is ……… and your FAILURE to define or being ABLE to define what a christian is ….. McDonalds gets to define what a Big Mac is ….. NOR BURGER KING ….. and Burger King get to define what a Whopper is …… NOT MCDONALDS …… and SCRIPTURE and christians define what is a christian and WHAT IS NOT …….. and you not being a christian …. DO NOT ………….

          • brucewang

            A Big Mac is a hamburger. A Whopper is also a hamburger. Neither side is saying the other isn’t a hamburger, so where are you going with this strange comparison?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            who GETS TO DEFINE what THEIR HAMBURGER is …. and WHAT IT IS NOT ……. and christians and SCRIPTURE define what is a christian ….. AND WHAT IS NOT ………

          • brucewang

            Who gets to define what a hamburger is? I don’t know, the dictionary, the internet, pictures, restaurants? A beef patty surrounded by two pieces of bread. And you don’t have to be someone who eats them to define them, so I don’t know why you’re only allowing Christians to define what being a Christian is. That makes ZERO sense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Who gets to define what a hamburger is? ” ………. NOPE …. who GETS TO DEFINE what THEIR hamburger is ….

            the operative word is …………………………..THEIR ………..

          • brucewang

            OK, so every restaurant gets to define what THEIR hamburger is. So you’re comparing that to all the different Christian faiths who define their God in different ways? It seems to me that if you believe that, then you’re proving me RIGHT, not wrong.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … Whopper is a TRADE MARK …. Big Mac is a TRADE MARK …. and Burger King gets to SAY WHAT THAT is ….. and McDonalds GETS TO SAY WHAT THAT is …… and christians GET TO SAY WHAT THAT is ……… and what it is NOT ………. by the description of what GOD has said that is …. it is HIS church …. not ours ….. it is HIS definition …. not ours ….. and there is only ONE christian church ……. so again you do not know what you are talking about ……

          • brucewang

            Meanwhile the entire world calls them all hamburgers. And no one has trademarked Christianity. Your brand doesn’t negate all the other brands even though you keep saying it does.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. they do not go to the window at Burger King and say “i want a hamburger” ……. because the person there is going to ask “Which one, would you like a WHOPPER” ….. and at McDonalds they are going to say “Which one, would you like a Big Mac or a Quarter Pounder” ……… and your line of reasoning is becoming asinine and you know it ………. but then again your line of reasoning is broken ….

          • brucewang

            So the Burger King rules apply only in Burger King then. Great. But Burger King isn’t claiming to be the only burger chain to know what a True Hamburger is. And that’s what you’re doing. You have the No True Hamburger fallacy. Replace “hamburger” with “Christian”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            AGAIN …. Burger King is the ONLY ONE who has the TRUE WHOPPER ………….. and it is DETERMINED by Burger King and THEIR POLICIES of what that is ….. and the only one who can say if a person is a christian is another christian who FOLLOWS SCRIPTURE (policy) ……… and YOU ARE NOT ……….

          • brucewang

            Your analogy is still terrible. The Whopper is a hamburger. It’s a type of hamburger. Just like a Lutheran is a type of Christian. But Lutherans aren’t the only Christians and don’t go around telling other Christians they are false. It’s apparently your group that does that, if we can use you as an example.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            The Whopper is a SPECIFIC hamburger ……. and a christian is a VERY SPECIFIC kind of person …….

          • brucewang

            A Lutheran is a SPECIFIC Christian. So is a Baptist. So is a Catholic. But they’re all Christians.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            sorry … NOPE …. there is no modifier to the term christian ……. there are none as you suggest …. JUST as there are no murderer-christians, no thief-christians, no homosexual or transgendered christians, or any other modifier you may want to attach to christian ……. FAIL ……..

          • brucewang

            None of which is your call to make. I reject your judgements. All those classes of people may be Christians if they follow the definition laid out in the dictionary.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it is ABSOLUTELY my call …. authority given by scripture IN SCRIPTURE ……….. to all believers …….

          • brucewang

            Fine, well there are many believers who have the same “authority” you do who think you’re wrong.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            YUUUUPPPPP ……… they sure do ………..

          • brucewang

            Half of Christians believe in the rapture. The other half don’t.
            Most Christians believe in infant baptism. But some don’t.
            Both groups are making the claim using the words of the Bible. I’d say you have a big problem on your hands coming across unified.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i have no problem ……. you worship science and it has changed since last week …. you do not know the truth as you reject the truth ………

          • brucewang

            I worship nothing, which I’ve now stated at least six times. Observing and accepting science is not worship. I don’t pray, don’t bend my knees, don’t fold my hands, don’t ask anyone or anything to “save” me. It’s you that does all those things.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person’s choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth”

            even more denial ……

          • brucewang

            You are welcome to tell me what it is I’m supposedly denying, that is, in the realm of reality. I’ve given you several examples of how YOU do this.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            question …. does “No True Scotsman” apply to all HOMOSEXUALS being PEDOPHILES …….. so if you are a HOMOSEXUAL you are ALSO A PEDOPHILE ….. and if it is said otherwise ….. well then ….. “No True Scotsman” ………..

          • brucewang

            I don’t think you understand the No True Scotsman fallacy. When you, a Christian, tell someone else who is a Christian, that they are NOT a Christian – merely because you disagree with them on some point or another – THAT is No True Scotsman. Homosexuals and pedophiles are demonstrably two different things, and the dictionary will confirm it, so when a person tells you that they aren’t the same thing, they’re in fact correct. But you cannot do that with Christians just because they don’t belong to the same denomination or “club” you do.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i think a homosexual is a pedophile and that ALL homosexuals are pedophiles ….. as an example ….. and for you to say they are not is a NTS FALLACY ……….. and what is good for the goose is good for the gander ….. homosexuals say they are not associated with pedophiles …. some are and some are not …… but guess what ….. NTS DOES NOT APPLY to EITHER …….. McDonalds gets to define what a Big Mac is ….. Burger King gets to decide what a Whopper is ….. and CHRISTIANS get to define what a CHRISTIAN is ….. YOU AS A NON-CHRISTIAN do not …………..

          • brucewang

            Wrong. I say that they aren’t because they demonstrably aren’t, if their dictionary definitions are anything to go by. Homosexuals are people who fall in love with people of the same sex, and pedophiles are people who are attracted to children. They couldn’t be more different, so it’s just idiocy to say they are the same thing. NTS doesn’t factor in at all.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I say that they aren’t because they demonstrably aren’t,”

            guess what …. SO DO i ……….. christianity IS NOT mere intellectual assent to a few biblical principles and saying you are one ……….. you DO NOT KNOW what a christian is and you have NO BASIS for saying if anyone is or is not ………….. NTS DOES NOT APPLY ………

            most homosexuals were the VICTIMS of pedophiles and they will admit it if pressed …… but most lack a certain honesty …. and they do not know what love is to begin with ….. love does no HARM to another …. but that is all the homosexual does to their “partners”, themselves and society ………… so NOT LOVE …………

          • brucewang

            I know exactly what a Christian is. Someone who follows the word and teachings of Jesus Christ. The problem is none of you Christians seem to be able to agree about what those teachings are.

            “Most homosexuals were the VICTIMS of pedophiles”

            Utter nonsense. And you have no factual basis for saying such a thing. Homosexuals who come together naturally like straight couples love each other. They say they do, science has measured the pleasure centers between gay and straight couples. There is ZERO difference.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … not nonsense ……… ADMITTED truth from NUMEROUS homosexuals ……..

          • brucewang

            Unless it’s ALL homosexuals, you haven’t got a leg to stand on in your failed logic. Here’s an analogy: some people drink, but not all people who do are alcoholics.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “The statement is based on logic, reason, science, all the things that require no God for them to be factual.”

            logic, reason, science, ….. those are all things that BELONG TO GOD that you deny ….. and without them …. you have no ability to know anything …. quit stealing from a christian worldview and get your own ……

          • brucewang

            It doesn’t steal anything from a Christian worldview. None of those things are owned by Christianity to begin with.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it steals everything from christianty ………… and again ….. you still have shown not one shred of science to support your “science” claim of nonexistence ….. that YOU asserted …….

          • brucewang

            All the things I am employing were in use long before Christianity even existed.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … they were all CREATED by God for men to use ….. and men DO NOT PREDATE God …… God is Christ ……… simple as that …. you are stealing from a christian worldview …. and without it you have nothing ………..

          • brucewang

            Men predate the Bible. I never said they predated God. Your entire playbook comes from the Bible, and everything we know now existed prior to it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            men do not predate God … God created science before He created men … it all belongs to God ………..

          • brucewang

            For the second time, I didn’t say men predate God. I said men predate the Bible.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God created all men ……… God WROTE the SCRIPTURES through men ……….. CHRIST is God …….. God created science, logic, and reason ….. those TOOLS belong to God …. quit stealing from a CHRISTIAN worldview ……….. all of that predates your corrupted use of those tools …..

          • brucewang

            I’m not stealing anything from a Christian worldview. I’m calling on things that were there before Christianity even started. Whether you like it or not, there WAS a period in time before Christianity and the Bible existed.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are stealing from God because you are using what God has given men and you refuse to acknowledge Him ……… so yes you are …..

          • brucewang

            We are back at square one. Prove that God a) exists and b) gave it to men, then we might have something to talk about.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to prove the truth to you …… it is OBVIOUS and you already REJECT it ….. so your problem ….. NOT MINE ………….

          • brucewang

            Once again, we have the problem that you can’t prove God. But don’t feel bad about that, because nobody can. And once you realize that (and it seems to be taking you a long time), you’ll understand why people accept science which tells them something which can be proven to be factual.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i do not have to PROVE GRAVITY EXISTS ….. any CHILD knows this ….. and YOU KNOW God exists ….. and YOU REJECT IT …… the evidence is overwhelming and OBVIOUS …….. and it is not my job to prove either gravity OR God to you ….. you reject God no matter the evidence or WHO shows it to you ……..

            NOPE …. you want to play “show me yours and I will show you mine” …. except you have NOTHING ……… and you will deny any evidence shown to you …. because that is what you are doing right now ….. and nothing is going to change that ….. except Christs intervention in your life …………….

          • brucewang

            Yes, until someone demonstrates or proves it, I reject it. I do that with everything in my life and always have and it’s ever once steered me wrong. I’ve told you several times that if you had proof of God there would be no atheists. As you know, there are billions of atheists. So where does that leave you?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            until God intervenes in your life ….. you will NEVER accept it ….. it is not my job to prove the truth to you ….. you reject truth in any event ………..

          • brucewang

            That doesn’t happen. Ever. To anyone.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            anyone who is saved …….. YUUUUUUUUUUPPPPPP …… sure as shootin’ ………….

          • brucewang

            You haven’t been saved. You have to die first, then we can talk about whether anyone “saved” you. You are putting the cart before the horse.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so again the non-christian is going to explain christianity about which he know nothing ……

          • brucewang

            I can know about Christianity without being a Christian, just like I can know about cats without being a cat.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no you cannot ……….. being a christian is not like being a cat …. and you DO NOT know what it is like to be a cat …………. just as you do not know what it is like to become and be a christian ………

          • brucewang

            I know what is involved to be a Christian. It’s all about the teachings of Jesus Christ. A kindergartener knows that. If you deny that, there’s very little hope for you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            no .. you OBVIOUSLY do not …. as you cannot ARTICULATE with ANY ACCURACY WHATSOEVER as to what that is ………… you are a liar ……….

          • brucewang

            If I’m a liar, so is the dictionary, Amos. Are you going to call the dictionary a liar?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            so another false God …….. really …. so the “science god” quit working for you and now you want to change horses midstream to another god that you think will suit you ………. BTW …. we would not even have a DICTIONARY if it were not for William Tyndale, a bible scholar and translator, who created the standardized English language dictionary while he at the sametime was doing biblical translation from Greek to English and Hebrew to English …… but you think it is YOUR ally in this …… laughing leads to crying …………

            the modern English dictionary is not a determiner of what a christian is NOR is it an interpreter of scripture ……….. and you STILL cannot articulate what a christian is ….. as you do not know …… nor can you tell me where in scripture to find that information …….

          • brucewang

            The dictionary is not a god. We don’t worship it. It is a tool. And again, one that exists without a need for a God or anything else you use to judge other people.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            the dictionary is a god ….. TO YOU ……..

          • brucewang

            I really feel sorry for you, that you cannot give anything a measure of respect for the work it does or the role it plays in this world without it being “worship” of a “god”.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i have given you the respect of TELLING YOU THE TRUTH ……… and all you want is agreement and lies ….. and you do not like the truth because you reject the truth …… your problem not mine ….. if you want to listen to people who will only tell you what you want to hear …… then that place is NOT talking to me ….. itching ears are NOT scratched here …..

          • brucewang

            You’re not telling me anything CLOSE to the truth when you tell me that I worship science. I don’t worship anyone or anything, and I’ve said so several times. I know me better than you do and you keep screeching at me that I follow blind faith and worship science, when I’ve demonstrated with examples several times that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and you do not know the truth as you reject the truth and have no way of determining the truth ………..

          • brucewang

            You haven’t once stated a single thing that is truth – only faith, so how are you qualified to even talk on the subject? I don’t even think you know what “blind faith” is, since you live by it and I don’t, and you accuse ME of it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “In the psychology of human behavior, denialism is a person’s choice to deny reality, as a way to avoid a psychologically uncomfortable truth”

            ever increasing denial ……….

          • brucewang

            I’m not denying reality. You are.

          • Bob Johnson

            No, brucewang never said God does not exist. He said, as you quoted, “There is no evidence of God”

            If you feel that there is indeed evidence, then it is up to you to provide it.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again ….. he chose science as the basis of his claim ….. so the burden of proof is on him not me ……….

          • wandakate

            Actually we can’t have anything or do anything without GOD. GOD is the determining factor here. Without GOD we (human souls) would have NO knowledge of science. We would have no wisdom whatsoever. We exist, live, breath b/c of GOD. He is the one who gives us the “breath of life”, and when we die He removes it from our mortal bodies and we are simply dead. The dead (according to scripture) know nothing.
            SO, without GOD’s breath we cease to be. Try giving thanks for that for starters. Science is created by man, but life is created by GOD. Science did NOT create GOD, it’s the other way around.

          • brucewang

            And when you learn to live a life without ascribing every single thing to a God you cannot possibly know, you realize that life without God isn’t just possible, it’s probable.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and what of this science ……..

            Syphilis rates are soaring
            When Rocha started working at the department, syphilis seemed to be on its way out. Case numbers were so low that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention launched a nationwide campaign in 1999 to eradicate the disease.

            Yet syphilis rates have risen almost every year since the new millennium, picking up steam in the last few years. The number of infectious syphilis cases nationwide quadrupled in 15 years to 23,872 in 2015, according to data from the CDC.

            The majority of new infections for years have been in men, particularly gay and bisexual men. This summer, the L.A.-based AIDS Healthcare Foundation erected billboards in the city as well as in Oakland, Dallas and Chicago warning of a “Syphilis Tsunami.”

            latimes;com/local/la-me-ln-syphilis-investigator-20170830-htmlstory.html
            change the ; to a .

          • brucewang

            What’s your point?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            correct science ….. you are the one all for science ….. there is some science …….. where is your faith …….

          • brucewang

            So we go from talking about the science behind homosexuality and you suddenly present a news item about syphilis and I am supposed to understand this sudden shift?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            well the health issues about homosexuality …. IS SCIENCE ……….

          • brucewang

            Do you see me denying it? Is there something about that that is supposed to make me ashamed of science?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            it refutes a number of statements made about homosexuality ……… “Love is not depravity. You would not say such a bigoted thing about a straight couple. Homosexuals can get married” “What homosexuals do is exactly the same as what everyone else does.” …. love does no harm to another …. but what homosexuals call “love” DOES CAUSE HARM to themselves, their “partners” and to society in general ……..

          • brucewang

            Actually it doesn’t refute any statements made about homosexuality. The article was about syphilis. I don’t have to tell you straight people catch syphilis too, they do. And just because the article indicates more gay men get it means nothing. Men, gay and straight, are driven by sexual drive more than women, so it only makes sense that a gay male demographic being comprised entirely of MEN would be more susceptible. Now, if ONLY gay people got syphilis, you might have something to try to claim. But you don’t.

            And monogamous male couples are not going to catch ANY diseases.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and syphilis .. as the article points out ….. “The majority of new infections for years have been in men, particularly gay and bisexual men.” …. PARTICULARLY an increase among WHOM ……….

          • wandakate

            Whenever you disagree with them you are NOT going to be popular. As long as you nod your head up and down and smile, everything is okay, but if you shake it back and forth and don’t smile and disagree then that’s when things start going south…Sad but true. Why? B/c people don’t want any TRUTH, they only want lies and to live life their own way regardless if they are pleasing GOD or not, b/c they basically just don’t care…GOD knows this and they will reap what they sow. The Bible tells us it will be a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD. Our sins will NOT go unnoticed.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            3 Reasons Why People Want You To Hate THEM

            Some people WANT you to hate them.

            1. They want you to hate them because THEY get oppression points. Being
            the victim is an accomplishment for them. People want you to hate them
            because it gives THEM significance. Believing they are hated is a
            fundamental part of their identity.

            2. They want you to hate them because if you do not, they would feel
            obligated to consider what you have to say. The respectful thing to do
            with people you disagree with is to engage them through an exchange of
            ideas that involve mutual respect and a sincere attempt to understand
            the others perspective. But they do not want to have to explain why
            kids do not need to have a mother AND a father or why a white woman can
            identify as a man but not an african american. They want to be able to
            do whatever they want to do and never feel “judged” for doing it. By
            telling themselves you are hateful relieves them of the need to defend
            what they are doing and their ideas from critique.

            3. They want to believe you hate them because THEY HATE YOU. That is
            the great irony here. They hate you because you believe there are ways
            to show love other than through approval. And if you hate them back, in
            their minds that somehow validates THEIR hatred of YOU. That is the
            nature of bitterness. The sad fact is, once you choose to hate someone,
            EVERYTHING they say or do is offensive to you. Even kindnesses will be
            interpreted in a way that allows them to think of it as hate. It could
            be they accuse you of hating them because THEY WANT YOU TO HATE THEM.
            ~ Joseph Backholm

            Nothing i can do about that …..

          • Lloyd Peacock

            Amos, thou dost protest tooooo much…you certainly need to point the finger back to you…Judge not says the Lord..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            an OUT OF CONTEXT reference to HALF A SCRIPTURE is not sound theology and you do not know what you are talking about ….. go to Matthew 7 AND READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER …. then maybe you might have an idea of what you speak ………….

          • wandakate

            No Amos Moses doesn’t lose anything, b/c he’s not the one that will be guilty in GOD’s eyes of living that lifestyle.
            The one that loses is the person who is living that lifestyle contrary to what GOD told us, they are the ones that are going to be suffering and will NOT be entering the Kingdom of GOD. Read the scriptures for clarification.

          • brucewang

            I’m not worried about being judged by a God who gave me no choice about my existence. Thanks for your concern though.

          • Michelle Thomas

            You’re right on Amos Moses!

          • wandakate

            The law stating that homosexuals can marry one another is ONLY a “man-made law”. It’s NOT a law of Almighty GOD. It’s worldly and JESUS said, “If you love the world and the things of the world, then the love of the FATHER is not in you.
            We were told to be IN the world but not OF the world.
            It’s a “union”, it’s NOT ever going to be a “marriage” in the eyes of GOD. It wasn’t in the beginning, and it’s not going to be in the end.

          • brucewang

            All there ARE is man-made laws. Even your Bible was made by men. It doesn’t matter though, man-made laws are acceptable enough to me since the world is inhabited by men and women.

          • wandakate

            A homosexual will NEVER be married in GOD’s eyes. It is a man-made union, but it is NOT ever going to be a real marriage b/c that was reserved for one man and one woman, one male and one female to reproduce and fill the earth. It was intended for nothing else “in between”. Why should they follow your faith? you asked. Because very simply JESUS Is the ONLY way to our salvation. He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and NO man will come to the FATHER but by me.” JESUS is our only way, our only hope, our only way to the FATHER GOD. If they choose not to follow that way and wish to live in defiance and disobedience then that is their choice. They will reap the consequences of their choices.

          • brucewang

            The law recognizes it. Beyond that, I’m not interested in who doesn’t recognize it, certainly not any religion.

          • wandakate

            You don’t need to be concerned about what any “religion” cares about. What you need to be concerned with is what matters to GOD.
            It’s Him that will punish people. We have to account to JESUS CHRIST in the end, not to the people on earth that made these laws. What is man-made is temporary, what was GOD made is permanent.

          • brucewang

            What you follow is a religion. You think you’re doing what God wants. Maybe you are, and maybe you’re not EXACTLY correct, and maybe you’re 100% incorrect.

          • wandakate

            Heaven and Hell are real places. We may not know for sure where we will be, but for now I follow my heart and my learning, and my common sense and the wisdom that the LORD has given to me. What I have said makes perfect sense. Temporary is man-made, what will last forever and is permanent is from above.

      • Daryle Henry

        The Bible specifically says it’s better not to marry. Both Paul and Christian said so. So it’s not a stretch at all to say that God would rather they live a celebate life than dedicate their lives to sexual sin. But I would say who cares what I think. If a person can defend their position from scripture and they have it settled in their minds that God really is okay, well, I’m uncertain that pushing them away is what God wants. Been a Christian for 15 years and this topic has been my struggle the whole time. I have no personal problem with it, but when I became a Christian I accepted that I don’t get to make the rules, I just follow them as much as I can. The best argument that I’ve heard in favour of it was from Matthew Vine but unfortunately it was based mostly on emotion with a dash of questionable interpretation of the word pornea (sp?)
        Anyway, I would love for everyone on the planet to be able to come to church and develop a relationship with God, but it’s not my church. I just have to do as the scriptures ask and trust that God knows what He is doing.
        Finally, marriage is not the road to happiness. Statistics will show that quite clearly. Happiness is fickle and comes and goes as it pleases, but joy comes from God and comes from understand the inheritance we have in Christianity. I may not be happy right now but I know that Christian has the victory and that everything that troubles me will one day disappear when I finally see his face.

        • brucewang

          Well, if we go strictly by what the Bible says then, homosexuals have no choice but to be celibate. If that doesn’t give homosexuals and people who are sympathetic to them reason to take issue with the Bible, I don’t know what would. It’s a very tall order to ask someone to live a loveless life.

          • cadcoke5

            There are other kinds of sexual attractions, for which our society (even most liberals), require them to be celibate, if that is the only way they can find sexual fulfillment.

          • MamaBearly

            Especially because gays are extremely loving people. Not just to who they are attracted too either. They would make great Christians if it were not for the sin that God doesn’t like.
            The thing that confuses the issue is that Jesus said that love covers a multitude of sin; doesn’t that mean if they are loving people in general, the sins they do, might be darkness overwhelmed by light? People tell me that the love is not real, but it is for anyone but the partner, so why can’t it be between them?

          • Daryle Henry

            I can think of a lot of things that would give them reason to take issue with the Bible. I can think of things that give me reason to take issue with the Bible. A little over a year ago my wife and I hated each other. We couldn’t stand to be in the same room, we never spoke to each other, we didn’t have sex, etc. It was torture for me. If I had done what the world says I should do in that situation I would be divorced right now. But scripture says “what God has joined together, let man not separate” and so I couldn’t do that. I would pray to God that He would either heal my marriage or kill me. I began to despair of life. I looked at the possibility of 40 – 50 more years of being in a loveless, joyless, sexless marriage and it felt like my life was already over, I was just waiting for death to realize it. And of course during this time I would meet other women and my heart would race and I would try to figure out some way to be with them without cheating and without going against the will of God, but there was none. Unless she ended it, I was stuck. And even if she did end it, I couldn’t remarry until she died. So not only did the Bible forbid me to end the marriage, it also forbid me to try to find happiness elsewhere if she chose to end it. I had plenty of reason to take issue with the Bible. But my faith, weak as it was at the time, kept me in place. I feared God more than I feared the life I was stuck in. And that fear isn’t like the terror I have of spiders or bears or something like that, it’s awe, respect, and the strong belief that He is so much bigger than I am, with so much more wisdom than I or anyone one earth has. Every non-believer I knew thought we should split up. But we didn’t. And God didn’t kill me, but he has been healing us. Strangely enough, despite how sure I was that she was the problem, things began to improve when I started to sense him telling me that I was the one who needed to change. I fought against that too because I was so bitter. She had wronged me very badly on more than one occasion and if I had ever wronged her it was in response to what she had done to me. This is what I told God and myself. But eventually I swallowed my pride and started making changes to my attitude and the way I spoke to her. I began listening to her no matter how wrong I thought she was. And pretty soon she started to soften as well. Now we talk all the time, we respect and love each other and I have no doubt that we will remain together until death takes one of us out of the picture. All because I listened to God instead of what I wanted and the world insisted was the right thing to do.

            I get that it’s different with homosexuality but I know what it is to stare down the barrel of a loveless life and see no way out. The prospect of a loveless life is hard, obviously since I hoped for God to kill me. But I put myself through most of that. If I had just had faith from the beginning and listened to God not just about staying together, but about abandoning pride, abandoning the things I thought marriage should be, seeking peace and above all else, putting God first, I have no doubt at all that things would have gotten better sooner.

            Homosexuals don’t have to live a loveless life. If they love God first and sacrifice the momentary pleasures of sex who knows what God will do? Plenty of people have lived celibate lives, either by choice or circumstance. Jesus lived a celibate life in fact, so God is not asking anything of anyone that He wasn’t willing to suffer Himself.

      • wandakate

        NO, you are mistaken. NOTHING is impossible with GOD. There have actually been many people who have turned from that sinful lifestyle to one that is pleasing to GOD. If they confess, repent and forsake their sins He is faithful and just to forgive them for all unrighteousness…

        • brucewang

          That has never been proven. And people who’ve claimed to change have often been found backsliding after the fact. Heard of Ted Haggard?
          Besides, lots of people will tell you this “conversion therapy” just urges people to live celibate lives, which is cruel and unusual if you ask me. And Exodus International, the biggest one of all, shut their own doors, APOLOGIZED, and admitted fraud.

    • MamaBearly

      So what you are convicting the child for the fathers’ sin? Just because his father was a pedophile, does not mean that Mr. Houston is one.
      EXCUSE ME? Love is not a feeling?????? It is an emotion which IS a feeling! Of course Love is a feeling.
      Where do you come up with this stuff?
      NO happiness is not a means of salvation, but if you are Hoping for salvation you should be FEELING Joy, peace and Happiness. So, in a way you do have to be happy in order to get salvation. We who follow Christ should be thankful always, and always be happy because Jesus will take care of us no matter what happens in our lives, if we pray for help. Who could be happier than someone who is saved by Jesus?
      Amos, I don’t think you understand about Emotions. You do realize that Hate is an emotion too. and the compassion that Jesus felt multiple times was an emotion too. So was Jesus’ sadness when he was going to bring Lazarus back to life. I don’t know why you don’t think Jesus can feel emotions when it was very clear that he could, and Love was the one he felt the most throughout the Gospel. Agape love: Jesus’ love for us, how he wants us to love him; how he wants for us to love each other. A Highest Love; unconditional, wanting what is best for the one the love is focused on.
      You can’t even care about someone without emotions especially love.
      You really should read the gospel again Amos. You have missed a big chunk of it apparently since you don’t understand the Love that Jesus told us about.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        Brian Houston defended what his father did for a number of years …. saying he was innocent ….. he FINALLY came to the truth ….. but what convicts him is his THEOLOGY and other things he has said from the pulpit and HOW they conduct what passes for “church” …. he is in fact MORE faulty in his theology …. THAN YOU ………. if you can believe that ….

        Love is an ACTION …. it is a VERB ….. love as a “feeling” ….. is just a lie and really is just LUST ………..

        • MamaBearly

          OMGoodness Amos! If what you said was true – which it isn’t – but if it was,
          Jesus told us to lust for each other.
          Confusing Lust for Love is what Teenagers do. Adults usually know the difference between Love and Lust. Does that mean if you married anyone it would just be about the LUST, not the LOVE? Because a marriage won’t last if there is no love and just lust. It will end before the death do us part comes true.
          I feel sorry for you for not understanding love. It’s an emotion, just like your hate is.
          If love is opposite of Hate, what do you think Hate is the opposite of lust?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … AGAIN …. your are defiling the word love to conform to your meaning …. Christs love was an ACTION ….. He DIED for us …. that was the ACTION of His love …… and to show our LOVE ACTION for Him … we are to DIE TO SELF …… ACTION ……….. VERB ………

          • MamaBearly

            I mean the 2nd commandment – some Christian you are to not think of it….
            he loved us – emotion – so much he allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sin.
            Yes it was an action because he loved us. But it is the emotion of Love that made him want to.
            You need to learn how to read. You are not understanding Christ’s sacrifice at all.

            He told us to LOVE EACH OTHER as a commandment that we are to obey.
            That is telling us to have the emotion of Love for each other.
            With your definition of Love that says it is LUST
            Jesus’ commandment would be that we should LUST each other.

            And that is what I was referring to.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            He love us …. ACTION …. VERB …. not emotion …. Christ had emotions ….. but that is not what love is described by Christs ACTIONS ….. love is activity …. it requires us to DO something ….. it is a VERB ………..

        • wandakate

          Amos Moses…I must agree it’s the LUST OF THE FLESH that is the problem. They are NOT born that way, and that is a scientific fact, proven again and again.
          GOD created MALE and FEMALE, MAN and WOMAN, nothing more. And He specifically told us how they were to behave from a sexual standpoint. It’s about our “morals” or lack of. We are just born selfish and until the know the LORD, we remain selfish and are only capable of doing what the flesh wants to do sadly.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        ‘It’s obvious he was a paedophile and that his behaviour was repetitive’: Hillsong’s Brian Houston believes his father sexually abused victims over a decade… and he fears there could be more
        Hillsong head Brian Houston says he doesn’t know how many people his father sexual abused over a ‘period of a decade’
        He gave his first sermon at Hillsong on Sunday since testifying about Frank Houston’s alleged sexual abuse at a Royal Commission last week
        Mr Houston said confronting his father about his alleged paedophilia was the ‘worst day of my life’
        The senior pastor defended his decision not to go to police after first hearing of the allegations in 1999 <<<<<<<<<<<
        Mr Houston was called to testify at a Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse

        dailymail co uk

        • MamaBearly

          So what are you saying: that Brian Houston should just believe what is rumoured about his father and not love and honor his father? If you don’t believe that something is true because YOU have had no proof until after you stood up for him, I pray that you would stand up for someone you thought was innocent. Otherwise if it is proven that he was innocent, any relationship you had with that innocent person would end.

          And you think that he approved of his father’s abuse when he said it was the “worst day of his life?”

          You don’t have the right to say ANYTHING about Brian Houston without having to go through something like this yourself. You cannot know anything except what the media tells you and they remove the parts that might mess up the angle they are trying for.

          Lord I pray you will open Amos Moses’ eyes and understanding of how to LOVE people instead of hate and negativity. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You don’t have the right to say ANYTHING about Brian Houston without having to go through something like this yourself”

            ummmm …. BALONEY ……O-S-C-A-R M-A-Y-E-R ………..

          • MamaBearly

            Actually it is true, you sure are blind to God’s word, so I am not surprised that you are blind to the truth about the world as well.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………..

          • MamaBearly

            And please GROW UP and stop using Childish terminology – or maybe… are you a young man trying to act like a grown up but can’t actually do it because you aren’t mature enough to let them go? I sang that Oscar Mayer weiner /balogna song when I was less than 10 and that means it was 50 years ago. Grow up Amos

        • MamaBearly

          So you are crucifying Brian Houston because he was not aware of his father’s sin?
          How the heck does that make any sense.
          If he did not know what do you expect him to do?
          He asked and had the worst day of his life because of the answer. Does that sound like he was going to approve of what his father did?
          He has been called to testify, that does not mean he is being asked to testify against him since he was not aware of his sin, it will be a character assessment that he will be testifying and it will be about his love for his father and that he did not believe it until he was told by his father that it was true.
          When people we love sin, we should not just abandon them. If we love them there is a reason and that reason should not go away just because of sin. No matter how much you hate the sin, the person is still a separate entity (which I know you do not believe) and we are supposed to love the person, not their sin. and that is EXACTLY what Brian Houston is attempting to do even though so many “professed” Christians are being ignorant about it.
          You are going against God’s Word by not forgiving another mans sin, which means you will not be forgiven by the Father. It’s in the scriptures… if you can’t find it I’ll be glad to post it for you.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope … BH crucifies himself by his mishandling of scripture ….. learned under his FATHERS tutelage ……. and it continues to this day …..

          • MamaBearly

            Belief is a denomination away.
            I know nothing but Hillsong’s Music, because I sing, but I am not one to follow the entertainment rags and that is where the Evangelists get media from what I have seen at the check out.
            Amos, the majority of people do not agree with your handling of scripture. There is no difference when you BOTH do it. You don’t think you do, but neither does he.
            You didn’t like your father did you Amos?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            nope …. God has told us the “way” ………. Hillsong rejects that ….. they want to build more wealth …. not Gods Kingdom …. and they want to attract those who do not belong there ……

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “So you are crucifying Brian Houston because he was not aware of his father’s sin?”

            ONE MORE TIME ………

            ‘It’s obvious he was a paedophile and that his behaviour was repetitive’: Hillsong’s Brian Houston believes his father sexually abused victims over a decade… and he fears there could be more

            AND

            The senior pastor defended his decision not to go to police after first hearing of the allegations in 1999 <<<<<<<<<<<

            dailymail co uk

  • Becky

    “Carl Lentz, who leads Hillsong New York with Houston’s son…’And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.'”

    Wait no more, Lentz. Christ said, “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46,47). Christ was referring to the five books of Moses…he wrote explicitly about God’s utter condemnation against homosexuality
    (eg Genesis: destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Leviticus: laws against sexual immorality including homosexuality). Christ declared the destruction of the sexually immoral and perverse Sodom and Gomorrah more than once (eg Lk 17:28-30, Matt10:15; 11:24, Jude1). Stop “leading” and start reading, prayerfully, the Word of God, daily, for the rest of your life else you’ll continue to be the blind leading the blind.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      Amen ………

    • MCrow

      So which parts of the Mosaic law are we excluded from? Dietary restrictions are popular, but do I need to beat my children when they speak of foreign gods?

      • Becky

        There are ceremonial laws, which were done away with at the cross, and the moral laws, which are still in effect.

        • Garbage Adams

          Have you got chapter and verse to that effect please? Or is it merely opinion?

          • cadcoke5

            There are several New Testament passages that indicate this. In general, we are not considered under the law given to Moses (this is stated several places in the N.T.) But, still, in the NT, we are regularly admonished against sins that would be considered moral law. E.g. Rom 15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! ”

            Note that all of the 10 commandments are either repeated in the NT, or at least hinted at, with the exception of the only ceremonial related law #4, to keep the Sabbath. And then, we are even specifically given freedom in regards to Sabbath. (e.g. Col 2:17 )

            I won’t quote any of the many verses which call Christians to moral lives, and even lists of specific immoralities such as drunkenness, theft, adultery, homosexuality, etc. Those are easy to find.

            There ones indicating that we don’t need to adhere to the ceremonial laws are less numerous, so here are some of them.

            In Acts 10:9-16 We are told about a vision given to Peter, in which God tells Peter to eat foods which were unclean in the OT.

            1Cor7:18 “…Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised.”

            Colossians 2:16-17 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. …”

          • Garbage Adams

            It’s a shame you can’t be more than vague about it. It’s all very easy to see a word like “sin” and then use your own interpretation of what constitutes “sin” and put it into that rather nebulous box. I was looking for a more specific place where one “sin” was specifically absolved and another was still on the table.

          • cadcoke5

            Are you unable to locate anything that is referred to as sin in the New Testament?

          • Garbage Adams

            In the article, Carl Lentz was looking for a specific place where Jesus addressed homosexuality. There isn’t one, so people like yourself look for a catch-call that addresses “sin” and say, there you go.

          • MamaBearly

            Actually, he mentioned all the other “death” sins including Adultery, but he left out homosexuality and told us that all other commands were “comprehended” (covered) by the commandment to love each other.
            That means he didn’t feel the sins he didn’t mention were able to be “fixed” (covered) by Love as others sins are.
            By saying that Love covers a multitude of sin, he was saying that if you have a lot of love (light) in your life, and some sin (darkness) the love will be so bright it will block overwhelm the darkness and come out to be just light.
            Jesus told us that all the commandments were “inside” of the commandment to love one another. Love conquers Hate; good conquers evil; and light conquers the darkness of all sin.
            If you love someone you don’t want to sin against them. That’s why Jesus wants us to all love each other. so we will not want to sin against anyone.

          • Daryle Henry

            Galatians is all about not following the law. It’s literally the entire point of the book. The same person who wrote that book wrote Romans which gives one of the strongest condemnations of homosexuality (among other sins) in the Bible. He also said that it’s better for a man not to marry. Marriage is between a man and a woman as God showed in the garden of Eden and Christ affirmed when talking about divorce in the New Testament and pointing back to Adam and Eve as the very definition of marriage as God intended it.
            The question that is less clear for me is how to deal with it. I believe that the Holy Spirit will convict but there are also places in scripture that say when a brother sins we are to lead him back out of sin with meekness and love.
            The counsel of Jerusalem in Acts 15 gives a list of the things Gentiles need to do to be a part of the faith and one of them is avoid sexual sin. This includes all types of sexual sin including lust, pornography, pre/extra-marital sex as well as homosexual sex. The problem comes because no one is asking anyone to affirm their life of cheating, or poem watching. At least no one in the church that I am aware of. I think the failing of the church is acting like homosexuality is a worse sin than anything else.

          • MCrow

            I realize it’s a typo, but the whole “poem watching” thing makes me think of when puritans thought it was sinful to read fiction as you were encouraging lying

          • MamaBearly

            I agree with your last statement. The church is only focused on the sins of other people instead of their own. Too many people do not act like Christians when they “rebuke” sinners by being hateful – and not about the sin. The way they are doing it makes the hearer think they are saying that God hates them. They have to know the salvation and that repentance for sin is part of the way to have Eternal life. Just telling them that God hates the sin will not work because 1) if they do not know God, why would they care if he hated the sin they did?
            2) It is the knowledge of Jesus’ love, the Hope of Salvation by repentance and the Joy of Eternal Life. Focusing so heavily on just the sin leaves the best part out of what they are yelling about. Salvation is the way to have people desire to repent. Otherwise they won’t care enough because, who wants to follow a God who hates? Jesus gave us one command and that is to love everyone.
            Jesus wants us to love each other more than he wants us to tell Non-believers that they are sinning. He wants us to bring these people to believe in, and talking about hate and sin is a turn off to most people these days. Besides, you can love the sinner without an expression of hate in your tone. There is really no need to be brutal with sinners, because we are supposed to shine our lights so non-believers will come to us to find out why we are so happy, why we help so many people, why we love everyone. And they will turn to Jesus because of our behaviour.
            When there is a situation that exists in the world that is against God’s Word as this issue has, there is nothing Christians can do to actually make a difference. We can state our objections, but it won’t be likely to change how the world has decided about the issue.
            We can pray for God to help us in the world.
            But according to Jesus these offences are necessary in Matt. 18:7 and Jesus told us they would suffer for those offences.
            It is the way he is telling us that these things must happen before the end of the world. It is the time of sorrows as many of the signs have been happening. The way the world has accepted transgenderism and now the children are becoming sinful too, This is why I believe that these offences to the children and the way the whole world has accepted sin as “normal”: it’s coming. God won’t make the gays and transgenders disappear or believe in him to make them stop sinning. The world will never be the same as it has been. With the whole world sinning the end is the only way God can clean up this mess.
            God bless!

        • MCrow

          Ok. If my child curses at me, should I execute him? Does that fall under moral or ceremonial? What about Leviticus 21:17-23? Do we leave handicapped people out? Where do we draw which lines?

          • MamaBearly

            Good Question! I’d like to know that too. (not really) That law is not applicable anymore. For one thing, killing is a sin. right? It also would not fit too well with love each other. There are definitely some things that as parents we must long-suffer.
            Most kids have a point that they will want something and when it is refused they insist they “hate you” and go to their room and slam the door.
            It’s not that they really hate you, they hate that the parent that said no has the ability to say no to something he wanted. (NO control). I’ve heard many people swear at their parents that came back later and apologized.
            What if we execute a child that would have repented for the sin of cursing their parents? Then what do we do. We killed him already before he could repent. I’m sure (not) that God would be ok with that. Riiiigggghhhhttt.

          • MCrow

            Weeeeeeeeellllll…there is a verse later to the effect of stoning a “stubborn son” who refuses to listen repeatedly to his parents, sooooo…

            Honestly, it’s why I am pressing this issue. Moral codes in the Bible have been adapted repeatedly for modern times (slavery is wrong, etc), but there’s stubborn insistence on certain issues being “Biblical.” The “thou shall not kill” is definitely a thing, but the fact is that every society draws that line somewhere between what is permitted and not. The Old Testament is rife with violence and killing, all permitted by Yahweh despite the commandment against it.

          • michael louwe

            There are God’s Law and national Law, eg ancient Roman Law and US Law. At one time, ie from 1500BC to 500BC, God’s Law was enforced in the Jewish nation of Judah/Israel.
            ……. Remnants of God’s Law are found in the Church Law of the Holy Roman Empire, British Law and US Law since they were/are Christian nations, eg “You shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness”.

            Hence, at MATTHEW.22:21, Jesus Christ said, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
            ……. And at ROMANS.13, Paul said, “1 Let every
            soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority
            except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.”

            Ancient Roman Law and modern US Law allow atheism, homosexuality and adultery. God’s Law prohibits atheism, homosexuality and adultery. In this case, Christians are to abide by God’s Law and should not persecute other people who are atheists, homosexuals or adulterers. Christians should just avoid them like the plague.

            In general, Christians are to follow both God’s Law and the law of their country, unless the law of their country causes them to lose their salvation, eg forced by their government to receive the mark-of-the-beast or computer chip implants.

          • MCrow

            Well, as an apostate, I happen to agree far more with the codes of our current law as opposed to working out which of the various holy texts to follow or be condemned to eternal suffering. You’ll forgive me for thinking that LGBTQs should enjoy all the same rights I am afforded

      • michael louwe

        ACTS.15:24-29 say that Gentile Christians are still required by God to keep any law of Moses which is not a burden, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20),
        DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9 & 18:22, etc. They are only exempted from any law which is a burden, eg circumcision, kosher foods, etc.
        ……. In comparison, Jewish Christians are required by God to continue
        to keep His Law, as many as possible, because it is not a burden to them.

        .
        For Jews and Christians, sexual immorality is a Big No No. Unrepentant sexually immoral sinners/evildoers/law-breakers will have no part in the kingdom of God/heaven, eg homosexuals, adulterers, incestors, bestialites, hedonists, rapists, pedophiles, etc.(1COR.6:9-11, REV.22:12-15)
        ……. On earth, esp in the liberal Blue States of USA, the sexually immoral may do what-is-right-in-their-own-eyes but they will receive the curses of God, eg AIDS, STDs, imprisonment, early death, etc.

        • MCrow

          So…basically they are exempt from laws they don’t like but get to keep the ones that are easy to follow. Cool

          • michael louwe

            It would have been too much of a burden to require new Gentile Christian men to be circumcised according to God’s Law or Moses Law, like for the Jewish Christians and Jews who were circumcised as babies – GENESIS.34:25.

          • MamaBearly

            No Gentiles are exempt from the majority of Hebrew Laws. In Acts 15:20 it is pointed out that the Gentiles only were told about 4 of the laws. there are over 300 Hebrew Laws. Other than the sin that Jesus told us about, those are what we are to go by.
            Some laws were over-ridden by Jesus when he said that the commands that make sins are covered by the last commandment: To Love each other.
            So technically Jesus did not mention Homosexuality in the list (shown below) that it used to be in, and said it was covered by love.

            Romans 9:8- 10
            8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
            9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling

            of the law.

            Jesus thought that if we loved each other, we would not sin against each other and that would give peace to the world.

          • MCrow

            Considering I woke up this morning to a missile flying over my current country of residence…I could do with more peace in the world…

          • MamaBearly

            I’d love to know, but you can let me know at another time.
            That’s all God’s ever wanted is the world to be full of love and no evil, but giving us free will meant it could never be. Especially with the likes of the Devil manipulating so many.
            I’m smiling because I know some people will think I’m crazy but it doesn’t matter because God said it doesn’t matter what other people think of you, God loves us for who we really are, and wants us to be able to fulfill our destinies whatever that may be, and his Truth is how to achieve the happiest life without a lot of stress, if you are a good person already, it won’t change your life very much. I know because it did not change my own very much as I already lived the life of a Christian without knowing the bible at all. Just the Golden Rule and it wasn’t in bible ease, so I did not realize that it was from the bible. I just knew it was a good rule that would help everyone get along if they learned to do it. God has some great ideas to bring this world to be a place of peace, but he wants us to choose. He knew what he was doing, I Trust Him about that.
            I pray McCrow that God will watch over you and keep you safe.

          • michael louwe

            The country that fired the missile over your current country of residence is an atheist communist country(= NKorea), ie not a Christian country.
            ……. IOW, you should worry more about atheists/socialists, Muslims, etc than Christians and Jews.

            Anyway, in general, unrepentant sinners/evildoers/law-breakers have a lot of things to worry about.

          • MCrow

            And Japan, the country I’m in, is also largely atheist, has a great deal of socialistic tendencies, and also has the lowest overall crime rate in the world. Almost like it has zilch to do with religion.

          • michael louwe

            No, Japan is not a largely atheist country.

            No, Japan does not have a great deal of socialistic tendencies, like those of the West.
            ……. Instead, Japan is very nationalistic or patriotic. They used to worship their Emperor as a God incarnate, which is part of Confucian teachings, eg ancestor worship, patriarch hierarchy, company age-seniority system, etc.

            From Wikipedia;
            Japan has full religious freedom based on Article 20 of its Constitution. Upper estimates suggest that 84–96 percent of the Japanese population subscribe to Shinto as its indigenous religion (50% to 80% of which considering degrees of syncretism with Buddhism, shinbutsu-shūgō. However, these estimates are based on people affiliated with a temple, rather than the number of true believers. The number of Shinto shrines
            in Japan is estimated to be around 100,000. Other studies have
            suggested that only 30 percent of the population identify themselves as
            belonging to a religion. According to Edwin Reischauer and Marius Jansen,
            some 70–80% of the Japanese do not consider themselves believers in any
            religion. Nevertheless, the level of participation remains high,
            especially during festivals and occasions such as the first shrine visit of the New Year.
            Taoism and Confucianism from China have also influenced Japanese beliefs and customs.[247] Japanese streets are decorated on Tanabata, Obon and Christmas.[245]

          • MCrow

            Um…read your own quotation. “Only 30 percent of the population identify themselves as belonging to a religion.”

          • michael louwe

            From www2(dot)kenyon(dot)edu,

            Confucianism is often characterized as a system of social and ethical
            philosophy rather than a religion. In fact, Confucianism built on an ancient
            religious foundation to establish the social values, institutions, and
            transcendent ideals of traditional Chinese society. It was what sociologist
            Robert Bellah called a “civil religion,”1 the sense of religious
            identity and common moral understanding at the foundation of a society’s
            central institutions. It is also what a Chinese sociologist called a “diffused
            religion”;3 its institutions were not a separate church, but
            those of society, family, school, and state; its priests were not separate
            liturgical specialists, but parents, teachers, and officials. Confucianism
            was part of the Chinese social fabric and way of life; to Confucians,
            everyday life was the arena of religion.
            _ _ _ _ _ _ _

            Confucianism =/= atheism or non-religion

          • MCrow

            And, I am telling you now, most people in Japan don’t have any religious beliefs. Most find the concept of religion as we understand it strange. You can argue they’re Confucian if you want, but most would just balk at the idea. It’s not the same here, and most don’t really buy into supernatural stuff beyond superstitions.

        • MamaBearly

          I must ask you a question. You quoted Acts 15:24-29
          Acts 15
          19 Wherefore my sentence is, that WE TROUBLE NOT THEM, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
          20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

          This tells us that the only laws the Gentiles needed to follow were the ones mentioned.

          Acts 15:
          28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you NO GREATER BURDEN than these necessary things;
          29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

          This also tells us the Gentiles only had to follow the 4 laws that we said they had to follow. They were never told they had to learn all the laws (over 300) and were told to only the 4 they needed to follow.

          Acts 15:10
          10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

          This verse questions why would they tell them to follow the laws
          that the Jews were not able to bear the laws,

          (this is a heavy yoke, not the easy one Jesus said that we should take from him)
          Leviticus is directed ONLY to the Hebrews which most of the OT is.

          There is a sin that is repeated in the NT but it is given to the gentiles after God opened up his grace to the Gentiles.

          I have to disagree about your first statement because the Gentiles are not restricted by all the laws that the Hebrews are according to scriptures.

          God does nothing to sinners while they are on earth. Their punishment is to be served on Judgement Day. Each person has the ability until they die, to repent and be saved. There is none that will not have the chance to come to Jesus.

          As a matter of fact, if someone is not aware of the Gospel, they will be considered as one of the justified because without the knowledge they will not repent. If there is a lot of love in that persons life, it will cover a multitude of sin.

          • michael louwe

            1COR.11: = 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.

            .
            .
            1JOHN.5: = 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

            18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[e] and the wicked one does not touch him.
            .
            .
            GAL.5: = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
            .
            .
            1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit
            of our God.
            .
            .
            REV.22: = 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”[f]

            14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

          • MamaBearly

            We were speaking about Hebrew Laws and these do not talk about the Laws.
            You seem to be forgetting that Jesus wants All to come to salvation. These are telling us what will happen IF we do not repent. The whole point of the Grace is to forgive us for the sins we do because we are sinners.
            Jesus will forgive every single person who repents. Until someone dies they have the ability to repent.
            Why do you focus so much on the sins instead of the Love that Jesus wants us to have for everyone?
            Why do you think so much about the sins that you don’t even do?
            I don’t understand why anyone would want to focus on sin (darkness) instead of Love (light) when the 4 books of the Gospel were filled with Jesus talking about love and he even made it that if someone loves that it will cover a multitude of sins.
            If you yourself do not sin these sins, why are you even concerned about them so much?
            We are supposed to take care of our own sin and just talk to others about their sin when we are aware of it. But you and others here seem to think our duty is more about pointing out others sin, than the truth which is to shine our lights and BEHAVE like Christians. We aren’t suppose to gang up on sinners, we are supposed to talk to them and tell the about Jesus’ love, Salvation by repentance, and eternal life.
            Read the 4 books of the Gospel and you will see that I am telling the truth. Jesus talked about love and our behaviour more than he did about sin.

        • Garbage Adams

          Would you like to tell me where in you Bible, or in the catechism of whatever far right evangelical church you attend, where AIDS and STDs are said to be curses of God?

          • michael louwe

            DEUT.28: = Curses on Disobedience

            15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord
            your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes
            which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: …….

            21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord
            will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with
            severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew;
            they shall pursue you until you perish.

            .
            1CORINTHIANS.11: = 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
            .

            HEBREWS.10: = 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of
            how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
            who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the
            covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the
            Spirit of grace?

            30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

          • Garbage Adams

            So you can’t then. Thanks.

  • Seaspray Spirit

    Brian Houston ‘quote’ states – “We’d be the kind of church that focuses on Jesus [and] believes in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict. I think it was Billy Graham who said, ‘It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge. And it’s our job to love.’”

    1 Tim 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

    Titus 1:9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict…v13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.

    God’s Grace, Christ’s Coming

    Titus 2:11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
    12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sensibly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
    14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own, zealous of good works.
    15These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise you.

    • cadcoke5

      Moreover we are commanded to judge and put out from among ourselves, those in open rebellion against God’s word.

      1 Cor 5: 12-13 “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.””

      Rebellion against this command, is the sin of the Hillsong group.

  • ISA41:10

    Homosexuality is sin, period!

    • Wesley Willis

      So you think god people that are inherently sinful and are condemned to hell even before they were born? That’s sick. Plus, you know that god created sin, right?

  • Reason2012

    Christians shouldn’t condemn homosexuals and “dismiss their desire to pursue happiness.

    You don’t allow those who openly reject God to continue openly rejecting Him in a group of what’s supposed to be born again believers in God. Nor should those who are ashamed/ embarrassed by God’s Word continue to be allowed in a group, let alone to lead a group, that’s supposed to be born again believers in God. God commands us to lovingly rebuke them and if they do not repent to mark them and separate from them, not let them stay in your midst to “pursue happiness”.

    opined that homosexuals are also not respected by Christians sometimes either.

    It’s not going to be deemed “respectful” to do what God says about those who openly admit they refuse to stop sinning. Doesn’t mean we let them stay in the group of Christians to openly mock God instead.

    “For us, it’s easy to reduce what you think about homosexuality to just a public statement. And that would keep a lot of people happy,” Houston stated in part. “But we feel at this point it is an ongoing conversation, that the real issues in people’s lives are too important for us to just reduce it down to a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer in a media outlet. So we’re on the journey with it, aren’t we?”

    There is no “ongoing conversation” to allow those who openly reject what God says to stay in a congregation of born again believers in God. The only “ongoing conversation” is satan’s attack on God, and professing Christians that fall for it by engaging in a debate as if God’s truth on the matter can be discarded.

    Genesis 3:1 “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,…”

    Satan’s favorite “ongoing conversation” and too many professing Christians engage Him as if it’s a productive conversation. In the end it’s God they’ll have to convince, not men.

    “Jesus was in the thick of an era where homosexuality, just like it is today, was widely prevalent. And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.”

    Jesus didn’t condemn bestiality or polygamy either – using your logic that means it’s now acceptable with God, which of course is false. This just shows how this guy is more interested in popularity and $$ than God’s truth.

    Psalms 12:6-8 “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.”

    John 10:35 “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”

    But as other poster said: Jesus/God’s Word is the entire Bible, not just the words that Jesus was recorded saying when He walked among us 2000 years ago.

    “It’s not our place to tell anyone how they should live,” his wife, Laura, added. “That’s their journey.”

    It’s our place when they are the ones that openly admit they’re living in sin to rebuke them and if they will not repent to remove them from the body of believers where they’re pretending to be Christians.

    1 Corinthians 5:1-8 “It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
    Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

    “We’d never be the kind of church that when people join the choir, we ask them, ‘Are you heterosexual? Are you homosexual?’”

    That’s more deception. We don’t ask about ANY sin – but we preach against it and preach on the folley of living in unrepentant sin. Any who openly admit they’re sinning of any kind and openly admit they refuse to stop when talked to abouit it should be removed, which is the part he obfuscates.

    ‘It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict. It’s God’s job to judge. And it’s our job to love.’”

    No, it’s our job to rebuke those who profess to be Christian who are trying to be in a Christian group / church yet who admit to openly sinning and refusing to stop. We don’t instead let sinners of any kind who openly admit it and hence mock God to stay and infect their thinking with the “ongoing discussion” of those who are still following the devil’s ways.

    • Dan

      Good comment. many good ones. I like Becky’s, it covered a lot quickly.

      I think the ears of the Christian community have been made to listen to issues through secular cotton earplugs. Christians who are not firm in the word are getting a garbled conversations and divided opinions about what should be crystal clear.

      As with many issues presently being hashed over by the new worldly morality, we must keep a perspective.

      The sin in question must be repented of and not returned to, regardless of happiness.
      As Christians we must take up our cross as presented in our station in life.

      We should not change or create the laws of the country to accept what God has condemned, regardless of what our constitution say’s.

      If our land does not make laws from a Christian foundation then we invite chastisement. That is the real issue here. There is not enough clear God sent voice in the secular messages we are drowning in.

      I shouldn’t have to explain to my children why God is right and society is not. If I am a jeweler or baker I should not have to render services to a lgbt wedding.
      The same reason I would not enable an alcoholic. The chains of sin are not always the same style of link, but just as binding.

      There is no hate for the sinner, but repentance must be asked. Not throwing them pillows to lie on. If you really love that community as people, then don’t pave a way for their sin by the popular demands of the current age.

      We need a firmer voice in the world that doesn’t sugar coat and debate wicked things.

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      well i gotta say …. you seem to be getting better at the in context quoting of scripture …. keep it up …. it will improve your understanding ………….

      • Reason2012

        I cite one verse three times in my post, now you’re now claiming I’m “getting better at the in context quoting of scripture” – yet many times before when I’d cite only one verse or two, you claimed the opposite. You said, and I quote:

        the FACT that you only quote ONE VERSE or maybe two ….. is proof it is out of context

        You best check your motives, Amos, as your contradictory claims shows you’re being disingenuous.

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          you quoted one verse for 8 verses …. yeah … that is an improvement ….. 1 Corinthians 5 …. and yes … that is better ….. learn to take a compliment …….

          • Reason2012

            It’s not a compliment when you’re trying yet again to promote your false doctrine of, and again I quote “the FACT that you only quote ONE VERSE or maybe two ….. is proof it is out of context”. As I told you before, when responding to posts online, often you do not need more than one verse, but that only sometimes you do.

            So trying to fixate on one of those times more than one verse is needed as if you were “right” that more than one verse is always needed is just you being dishonest like normal.

  • Lydia Church

    It’s a sin. Period.

    • MamaBearly

      Gee what about loving everyone. you don’t sound like you even think about the person who sins, you just want to HATE so you excuse your hate for the people who are gay, because they ‘sin’.
      Jesus taught us how to behave and yelling at people about their sin was not one of the ways he taught us.
      He also said that if we did not do what he asked us, we would not be saved.
      Matthew 28:20
      18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
      19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
      20 Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
      That is about how he showed us by example and with lessons how to live like a Christian. If we don’t follow how he said to behave, it sounds like it won’t be a good thing as far as Jesus is concerned.

      Jesus commanded us to love each other. Hate is darkness Love is Light.

      He also told us that Love covers a multitude of sin. But we as humans cannot know what love the people have had in their lives like Jesus can, so we are supposed to love them anyway and not make them feel unworthy. Everyone is worthy in Jesus’ eyes. and it’s a good thing considering We are ALL sinners.

      • Disagreement is not hate. Grow up.

        • I know and thank God that it’s not! If it were, we’d be showing hate every time we disagree with somebody!

        • MamaBearly

          That is funny!! I’m a little old to Grow Up. Besides it is the hate I hear so it is there.

          • RWH

            What you (and I) are really reacting against is this tendency to go ballistic at the mention of a word. Nobody bothers to get to know the individual. The label itself is all they need. And then they sit there stupefied when they get push back from thoughtful people. Gay people are here, and they are becoming more and more accepted no matter how loud people scream about it.

          • MamaBearly

            I just do not understand how a professed Christian can show so much Hate and try to call it love. It’s incomprehensible to me.
            It’s when they do recognize that gays are here to stay against OUR belief, that they will realize their mistakes – well, I hope that Jesus opens their eyes before it explodes in their faces.
            Thank you RWH, for your support. I do appreciate it very much. Always!
            Blessings!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “I just do not understand how a professed Christian can show so much Hate and try to call it love.”

            i just do not understand how APPROVAL of ANYONES sin is “love” …. and telling them they are WRONG …. equals “hate” ….. all that is, is SPIRITUAL IMMATURITY …….

          • MamaBearly

            You really can’t read can you?
            I have never posted even once that I support any of the sins. NOT ONE of them. I only try to make people UNDERSTAND what the facts are, so there is no support for sin from me. You are quite welcome to look through my posts as I know that I have never supported the sin.
            If anyone is spiritually immature, it would be you. For not following the gospel, or troubling yourself the the last commandment. Until you start realizing that Jesus gave us the command to do all that he told us to do so we can live in the Kingdom of Heaven.
            Matthew 28
            18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
            19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
            20 Teaching them to OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
            You’d better find out what “things” Jesus has told you to do, Amos…..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            but your CONTINUAL equation of love and approval of them is what you do ….. and disagreement is “hate” ….. and making any statement about their sins is “hate” ….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            Facebook Now Allows Users To Flag Anything They Disagree With As ‘Literally Hitler’
            August 23, 2017

            yeah ….. you just support all the SUPPORTERS of SIN ………..

          • Pepper Boone

            So if you are not “supporting” the sin then you are agreeing with us. So what’s the problem. God said if we don’t point out a sinner’s error their blood will be on our hands. Read Ezekiel 3:18.

          • MamaBearly

            I don’t support the sin, I support Equal Rights of EVERYONE. No one should be unequal in our society because of their sin. We are all sinners and no sin is ‘greater’ than another.

            We are all equal according to the scripture that Jesus pointed out that all of the people who were learning to be his disciples were equal to his mother and brothers. It is also showing us that God MUST be the Highest in your life, and that anyone else is equal under God.

            I don’t think you’ve been here so I will explain. What I object to is the way they tell the sinners about their sin. Being yelled at by strangers that tell them about God’s hate of their sin; it’s like a teenager who has been balled out and all they remember is the hate in their parents voice when they were balling them out. It is what stands out to people. We should be telling them of why they should repent, not just that they need to. Some people actually do not know about the gospel, and if they don’t know then why would they think repentance is necessary without knowing that.
            I do not say we should not tell them, I just think there are better ways to tell gays than yelling at them from a crowd.
            I always tell everyone that they should tell them about Jesus’ love, Salvation by repentance, and Eternal Life because that is what we are supposed to do as our duty to Jesus. Spread the Gospel.
            I am doing Nothing that is a problem with God, but some of the posters here seem to think that I am trying to lead people astray. Is it leading people astray by telling them to read the gospel? I tell them what I believe, and tell them to search the scriptures to see if I am right. Which is also in the scriptures.

            See, I keep telling them they are giving me a bad reputation by acting like there is only one belief in the bible and theirs is the only one, but won’t even consider what I say to make sure they are right.
            So you see, I do not say that they do not need to be told, but if it isn’t enough to bring them to God, it is not giving them the whole Gospel. They need to know more than God hates sin. They need to know more to be able to believe at all. This and that I believe that Jesus would give everyone equal rights of humans with no regard to their sins because it is not our place to punish, only to speak to others. Having the same rights as we have to live and eat and have heat and services without someone telling them that they have to give up their ‘sin’ or go to hell. Again, where is the love Jesus told us to have for everyone? We live without having our sins complained about every time we go out, but they don’t. They are regularly harassed and that is not what we are supposed to behave like. Telling them is not harassing them and refusing to provide something because of their sin.
            As I said, the only problem is that they focus on the word support and do not read the rest and think I am supporting the sin, when I am not. I tell everyone, I trust my God and I have to believe there is a reason for the things he taught us. But Jesus did not say to take away anything in punishment for their sin, certainly not things that we all use in our lives.
            The closest we can abet their sin is to sell them only one mattress. How else can we help them to sin? That means One person or store may have supported the sin, but if they were not of the faithful, they would not have a problem with it.

            Gays are people just like we are, and they are sinners just like us. Why are they treated so badly instead of with love to help them to believe and repent.
            Sorry. I tend to ramble a bit when I speak of Jesus’ Gospel.
            Blessings!

          • Pepper Boone

            Amen, Amos

          • Garbage Adams

            It is very much appreciated that you are here to show some of these people who have essentially become unthinking machines what Christianity is supposed to be about. These are some of the angriest people I’ve ever seen in my life. Not setting the example Jesus intended…I’m quite sure of that.

          • MamaBearly

            Thank you Garbage Adams, that was sweet of you to say.
            I do think that way. Christians have to stop focusing so much on the sin and start focusing on the love that Jesus told us to have for one another.
            Christians were supposed to have an impeccable reputation, because of their relationship with God. I’m not sure when the hating and the anger got the better of these posters. I find it sad in a way, that when I ask for respect, it is the gays and the atheists that support me and my brothers and sisters in faith that go against me. But it’s ok because I’m only living for God, not for those people. I know what God wants me to do and I’m here doing it. Spreading the Gospel as it is meant to be spread. Speaking of Salvation by repentance, instead of repentance for salvation as repentance is not the only thing Jesus said he wanted us to do. That is where the “Good Christian” came from when I was a child. We knew we could trust the Christians around us, we were to go to one if we needed help. There were a lot more Christians in my neighbourhood then than there seems to be in one area now. Everyone behave well, and helped each other and always got along. I miss it very much. I was blessed by God to have the childhood I was given, Praise him. If I was a little younger though, maybe I wouldn’t have so much sorrow for the things in the history of the world. I know there were some horrible things that happened at the time I was growing up but we were sheltered from that kind of thing if possible. I was always told to go to my room at the end of a meal, so the other 6 people could “talk”. Used to infuriate me.
            Anyway, sorry for babbling. haven’t done that for a while. Some people just seem to pull it out of me I guess.
            Thank you again. I appreciate the blessing. Please pray with me that God will open their eyes in time. Blessings!

          • DrewTwoFish

            …on an unrelated note. I was accused of harassing Christians online. I thought for a sec, “Am I being that a**hole?” Maybe, but on further reflection I thought, no, I don’t give Christians a hard time “just because.” Some of my favorite people are Christians. What I do go after is the hypocrisy, inconsistency, illogic, and mean spiritedness that some display. Mean spiritedness may be an understatement. Some of them are just hateful.

            What my accuser doesn’t get is that I can have civilized discussion with a Christian who attempts to mirror Jesus in character. And though I’m sure we disagree on almost everything theological I have felt no urge to hassle Mama Bearly.

          • MamaBearly

            Hi DrewTwoFish! I haven’t seen you posting for a while. It’s so good to know you are still around.

            Thank you so much for your words of support, I very much appreciate it as it helps me when I get frustrated over the hate.

            I believe that we are supposed to be good people who show others that it is good to be the best person they can be. Jesus’ message is about Love and I want everyone to know Jesus’ love.
            So DrewTwoFish, are you an atheist, or are you in a faith church? I’m curious, I admit it!

            But you don’t have to answer if you think it might cause more problems. I understand about that. Thanks again, and I hope they notice this post so you will not be accused of it again. God bless!

          • DrewTwoFish

            I’m happy to answer your question. Personal contact info aside I’m pretty much an open book on Disqus. Yes, I’m an atheist. I was a Christian for a long time. I finally left the church about 5 or 6 years ago for good. My faith dissolved about the same time.

          • MamaBearly

            I’ve heard this story many times sadly. Well, we’ll have to have a discussion about your decision some time. I am always interested in why people left the church. I never know when I will be able to help them see things differently.

            I appreciate your honesty. And your understanding that disagreeing does not mean we can’t be friends. I can’t hang around you so I’m not going against God and Jesus wants us to love everyone with no exceptions. I’d love another friend.

            You left your church about a year after I started my journey. Were you brought up with church in your life, or did you choose to go later on your own?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and now the unbeliever is telling us what to believe when …… the irony of this is again staggering ……………

          • Garbage Adams

            That is exactly the point. Are you not as a Christian supposed to spread the word – joyfully – of God? As someone from the outside looking in, you and MamaBearly are selling the same product (though you would never know it to hear you talk). Hers is a product of love. Yours is a product of anger and hatred and fear. If I were looking to become a Christian there is no question which of you I’d listen to.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            you are unregenerate ….. you do not accept the things of God so how would you know ……

          • Garbage Adams

            I can be anything at all to recognize how well or how poorly someone sells me on something.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …………

          • Garbage Adams

            No. You didn’t.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …

          • I’ve noticed that and it tickles me almost every time.

            They are proudly in open rebellion against God (the only living God), have no spiritual understanding nor wisdom, but presume they can instruct believers, who know God, on God, LOL.

            Brother, when I first came across that behavior online I did a double-take like surely this troll doesn’t even take himself seriously, so clearly he knows I don’t take him seriously so this has to be a joke. Nevertheless, it seems they don’t understand that the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God and He laughs at his enemies.

            Proverbs 2:6 (KJV)
            6 For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
            1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (KJV)
            6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
            7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
            8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
            9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
            10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
            11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
            12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
            13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
            14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
            16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

          • Pepper Boone

            Again, disagreement is NOT hate. The Word is explicit about homosexuality, read Romans 1. Does that mean God hates?

          • MamaBearly

            The way is that it is told to them Pepper. People do not have to be harassing them to get the point across to them that they sin. They should not be deprived in anyway because of their sin. We aren’t, nor are other non-believers.
            If you are told just “You are sinners, God hates your sin and will give you hell as punishment for it if you don’t ‘repent.”
            There is no love in that at all, and by saying that God hates their sin, if they do not know what sin is because they have not heard the gospel before, they think God hates THEM, not just the sin. The way people seem to behave towards gays is not what Jesus taught us to treat others like.
            Do you think it is alright for someone to not sell groceries to someone because they are gay? Is that how Jesus wants us to act towards anyone?
            If I had not made the effort to talk to them, I would not have known the stories that do not make it to the media. I would not know that some Christians think they have the right to make someone else’s life miserable because they are sinners when they have no right to deny people the thing necessary in life. But they do. That’s why I support their equal rights. I would not be happy going into a store, getting groceries and going up to the cashier and being told they won’t sell anything to me because I am a sinner.
            I don’t think you would either.
            I’ve come to the conclusion that Jesus created the different faiths to be able to reach more people, and we all have things that God has us do, like some are called to harass sinners, and others are called to show the world the love of Jesus and what he wants to give to us out of that love. But we have to obey what he taught. We have to obey the commandments Jesus gave us. And they say to show everyone love, not hate – it doesn’t even mention sin, just love.
            I’m just tired of the posters that act like they have any more authority on earth than sinners, and punish them in their loving manner. A sinner is a sinner is a sinner. They are all equal to God. None are greater sins and none can be punished in any way differently than any other sin.
            Loving someone enough to correct them does not mean you need to act like you hate to help them understand why they are sinning. You don’t get mad at a child who does not know better because they have not been taught it yet.
            We need to remember that we are all small children that are learning and that means we have to give others the same consideration, including unbelievers because some of us were unbelievers once too.
            We are supposed to behave in a Christ-like manner and that is not like how Jesus treated sinners. Not once did he tell us to harass and deny them their rights for the sin, and actually was pretty soft on a few of them. What he did tell us to do is to love everyone.

            John 13:34
            34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
            Matthew 22
            39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

          • There is no hate in what you replied to. It doesn’t matter if you are eight or eighty, you obviously lack the wisdom and maturity of proper discernment.

          • MamaBearly

            Just because the conversation was deleted, does not make me forget, it’s still in my memory.
            You made a rude reference to “cotton pickers”
            Another poster and I told you that you were racist for saying it.
            You said you did not have a racist bone in your body.
            You asked how you were being racist
            We told you that it was racist and that it was a derogatory name for blacks.
            You said we needed to learn our history: I think you put this 2 times.
            I told you that I had lived that history and people were using that phrase still when I was a child. And by saying that is showing hate towards Blacks
            Then part of the discussion was deleted,
            And you replied that you did not know what I was talking about…. I think the rest of the conversation is still here.
            So, will you just understand that you are not supposed to use derogatory names towards anyone. The meanest word that Jesus used was Hypocrites. Besides we are supposed to love each other, and that is not showing love – Of the 2 “New Commandments” the second command is where Jesus tells all of his followers to love everyone.
            So this is the end of that discussion and personally I’m not interested in talking to someone who even wants to act like there was no conversation.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            again …. the 1st of the 2 “new commandments” are the restatement of the first 4 ten commandments …… and the 2nd “new commandment” is the restatement of the last 6 ……… and would you please stop trotting out that old canard that is is something different ….. WHEN IT AINT ……..

          • MamaBearly

            I have proven each and every thing I’ve ever said and even told you to verify it. I can’t help it if you do not verify it, and find that it is true.
            Yes the two commandments were said in the Old Testament, but Jesus said he was giving us 2 New Commandments when he told us them.
            and the 2nd commandment is not the restatement of the last 6, it is INSTEAD of the last 6, you didn’t listen after all, what a disappointment.

            Matthew 22 KEY VERSE 40
            36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
            37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with
            all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
            38 This is the first and great commandment.
            39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
            40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            John 13
            32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
            33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
            34 A NEW commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

            You see the difference Amos? This one scripture gives clarity about what Jesus means by it.

            I’m not sure that you can understand this any other way so here I go…
            that you love every one the way you love your sister or your brother. It isn’t an action that makes you happy to see them, it’s love Amos, the Emotion of Love. I really need you to understand. You can’t honestly deny that you love your siblings. That is the same love that Jesus has for us Amos. A mother to a child. A Father to a child.

            and the love that children have for their family members. It’s all about emotion Amos.

            So Yeah, Jesus said it was “New” for a reason Amos. He didn’t say things by accident.

            There is a difference as you can see by verse 40, “hang all the law and the prophets” It doesn’t mean it is a restatement of the last 6, it states right there that it is above those things. It replaced the things of the law and the prophets. according to what hang all means.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …..

          • MamaBearly

            Just say NO to acting childishly Amos. Just say NO…
            Amos, DON’T ANSWER. Don’t push that reply button. Just say NO!!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……… AGAIN ………….

          • What I am about to say, I say with a sincere heart for your own good.

            You’re nuttier than a fruit cake.

            Do not bother me any more with your inane drivel.

          • Garbage Adams

            You could learn a few things from her. But you won’t…your pride is too headstrong.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            LOL …. now YOU invoke pride …. while failing to recognize your own …… the irony is staggering …………

          • Garbage Adams

            Nothing I have said has been prideful.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            see ….. cant recognize your own ………..

          • Garbage Adams

            You could simply stop playing games and tell me how I’m supposedly prideful. Too hard?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………….

          • Garbage Adams

            No….you didn’t.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …….

          • Garbage Adams

            So while you were taking the time to click “reply” and enter a response, in other words doing the FURTHEST thing from ignoring me, how did you come to the realization that the best thing to write was “ignored”, which you didn’t?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……………..

          • DrewTwoFish

            Another loving display. I just don’t get it. You could have communicated essentially the same thing without being an a**hole.

          • I already tried and failed.

          • DrewTwoFish

            Yeah, whatever. And they’ll know we are Christians by our love.

          • You are right in your criticism of me and I am sorry for the words I typed and have asked God to forgive me.

          • DrewTwoFish

            I respect that but I think you should take it up with MamaBearly. Your call.

          • They intentionally agitated, trolled, and insulted you, even falsely accused you of racism, which is a brazen lie…and then when you respond with truth (however phrased) they feign the utmost offense because you’re Christian. It’s the same old troll tactic they use, blaspheme God, harass Christians, stalk and troll them, call them names, lie on them, use multiple socks to make it seem that the troll’s presence is greater than it actually is, and continue to agitate Christians even after they’ve asked you to move on and if they respond a certain way judge them immediately to try and make them feel guilty, thereby exercising a weird type of control over them.

            Their goal is to either run Christians off/silence them to stop truth frpm going forth or try to make Christians look bad and negatively impact their witness so even if they stay you make others think they’re mean (even though it was actually the troll who initiated the attack and was constant in attacking the Christian for years), BUT the elect are not ignorant of the devices of the enemy. If we sin, we sin against God and He is faithful and just to forgive us when we ask.

            The devil is a lie. You are who God says you are and you’ve already been redeemed. There is no condemnation to those of us who are in Jesus Christ. That troll has been stalking and harassing you and Amos for a long time and should be blocked and banned, not catered to, but I respect your decisions to continue. The lost’s opinion of the righteous is irrelevant. They hate Jesus Christ so don’t expect them to love us brother.

            God bless you.

          • Thank you for that Lady Checkmate. God bless you.

          • DrewTwoFish

            So, you’re never wrong? I don’t hate Jesus Christ or Christians. In fact I love some of them. What I hate is arrogance, hypocrisy, inconsistency, and nastiness.

          • Garbage Adams

            It’s all hate, Doug. I think if I met you in person I’d probably want to keep a wide berth because you seem to be foaming at the mouth with rage in everything you say here.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            spiritually …. you are still a child ……….

          • MamaBearly

            Mentally, you are still a child.

            I’ve already told you that your name calling and petty little things like “ignored” is childish behaviour. so Grow Up. Maybe if you do that, you will be able to read the whole gospel and find the second commandment that Jesus gave us.
            Do you think Jesus would like it if we do not love? It is the light I keep talking about. Love.
            Amos, I’ve learned that you have never married, nor had children, but you are a Proud Uncle. Just by the things you say. I expect you to deny them. I know that.

            Jesus wants us to love each other… Do you think Jesus was not serious when he told us that?
            It goes beyond the grace of forgiveness Amos. You don’t ignore a commandment from God. It is not something I expect you to understand but love is light, and anything else is against Jesus’ Word. Jesus told us that love (light) would conquer Evil and he will see how much love you have shown the world. And if you followed his directions in the Gospel. He specifically told us to keep his commandments: Each one is about love. God IS LOVE. If you don’t understand what it is like to love someone so much you would lie your life down for them? I feel bad for you. I actually have a number of people that I love and would do anything for. God is my number one Focus, but he told us we could have brothers and sisters as our friends.
            I would also be killed for refusing to call another my God. There is only one God and that is MY God and any others are False gods.
            So that is what it means to love each other. Do you understand YET?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …………..

          • Garbage Adams

            I like where she said “mentally you are still a child”. That was a good one. MamaBearly 1, Amos 0.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………..

          • Garbage Adams

            Only not ignored at all…as usual.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i can read it and yet still ignore it as it is nonsense and vitriol and other ad hominem garbage, Adams ……….. see what i did there …….

          • Garbage Adams

            You just can’t leave it alone. You are like a moth to flame.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …….

          • Garbage Adams

            You have ignored nothing. As usual.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………..

          • Garbage Adams

            No, you didn’t.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……………

          • Garbage Adams

            Not ignored. Let’s call it what it was…a direct hit.

          • MamaBearly

            okay little boy you go lie down and have a nap. Be sure to read the 4 books of the Gospel when you wake up.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………

          • MamaBearly

            too late everyone has seen it and will even though you are like a child by thinking that writing “ignored” is what ignoring someone means.
            Amos, DON’T ANSWER. Don’t push that reply button. Just say NO!!

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …………..

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Age does not equal being spiritually mature. I have known people who were 70 years old, who were literal “babes in Christ”, and I have known others who wore the label “Christian” for many years, but never progressed past getting only the “milk of the word” and onto the meat. (1 cor 3)

          • MamaBearly

            That is what I was until 7+ years ago. I knew nothing about Salvation repentance or even Eternal life and all I knew about Jesus was the commercialized stuff from when I was a kid.

            I am spiritually more mature than the ones that usually call me immature, but I am aware that there will always be more for me to learn. That’s why I ask so many questions.
            I am 60 but I am a baby still, but I have a very close relationship with God and The Holy Ghost actually helps me with what I post a lot of the time.

            I always called myself a Christian, and an Anglican before because I was baptized in an Anglican church as an infant. I am no longer an Anglican and I am a Christian in my life more than it was before and I lived like a Christian all my life. The golden rule has always been the way I lived.
            I’ve also been told many times by the older members in my church that I have learned more in the time I’ve been a member than anyone they have ever seen before. God is everything to me. I gave up all control to him a long time ago. I know the Word, and can give supporting scriptures for what I say. I am leading people to read the gospel, and to see Jesus’ love. Too many people think our God is a hateful God and he is a Loving God. That’s why a lot of people hate Christians. They feel hated, so they hate back. They think Christians only judge and find wanting with everyone except themselves. The only way I can help others to come to learn about the gospel is to teach them that it isn’t right that they are being treated badly. Jesus would not agree to making them feel worthless, and to feel hated for the person, not the sin.

            It does not take spiritual maturity to know when something someone does is wrong. I’ve known right and wrong always. They think it is ok to treat the gays badly because they sin and Jesus did not tell us to do that. Talking with love will bring more people to Jesus than talking about the hate of the sin. The hate of the sin is part of Salvation by repentance. If they do not know about Salvation, they will not care about us telling them about their sin. They won’t understand it without Salvation. Telling someone with love about their sin is not yelling it at them. It is not telling someone that they are disgusting because they sin, and I don’t care which sin it is, they should not be doing that. This is what I try hardest to get across to them. But they disagree and usually end up calling me names.
            I was taught about us being like babes, because when I failed, my Pastor likened it to a child learning to walk, we don’t get mad when a child falls during the learning period especially, God understands we are flesh and have trouble with sin, and will forgive us and give us more chances to have victory over the sins we have trouble ending.

            TBH I put that about my age because of the way the poster was talking to me in posts that were deleted. It was more of a reply that was not serious because of the person, who I hear hate coming from regularly.

            Blessings!

      • NCOriolesFan

        Jesus also commanded to sin no more too.

        • Wesley Willis

          But god himself created sin

          • NCOriolesFan

            ABSOLUTELY NOT ! He allowed free choice to Adam and Eve and they succumbed to the sin of temptation in the Garden of Eden. You never blame a PERFECT GOD for sin.

          • Wesley Willis

            but he chose to put the tree in a place where he knew they would sin. why did he need a tree at all? and if he needed a tree, why not put it outside the garden? either your god isnt perfect, all powerful, and all knowing, OR he wanted sin to be created. those are the only options.

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Again, He gave them Free Will. He gave them entire gardens full of trees and vegetables – but said that of this ONE Tree, they should not eat.

            Did He have foreknowledge of their sin? Yes. That does not mean that He created Sin. In Him, there is No Sin, nor does He even tempt man to sin. What He did, though, was have a way for sinful man to come back to Him and have his sins marked, “paid in full”. The way was through the shed blood of Jesus Christ – who paid for my sins and for yours.

          • Wesley Willis

            But he caused the downfall of mankind – you said it yourself. He put the tree there, he knew they would eat it. I don’t think that’s moral at all – any guy that would trick everybody like that with the punishment being eternally tortured is not, in my view, a guy worth worshipping.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        love and APPROVAL ….. are NOT the same thing ……….. FAIL ………..

        • MamaBearly

          You have to love everyone, but you do not have to like anyone.
          That is what the difference between love (respect) and approval is.
          I love God and I respect him above all else, so no one has my respect except for God about anything that I need to use in my life now.
          Amos, I love you as my brother in Faith, but I don’t respect you because you won’t even consider what I have been saying. I read what you post. I look up the scriptures you don’t post, and even ones you do if there are more verses in the chapter. I consider if it replaces my own belief and it doesn’t do that. But at least I consider it before I make a decision. You make it obvious that you have never read what I have posted. I respected you then, and looked at what you said, the scriptures and the pages you posted to me about them.
          I got upset because you refused to listen to me. I feel that God wants you to listen and you still won’t. Wouldn’t you rather check it than ignore what I might be feeling really IS God.
          One of the most annoying things in this day is the way everyone wants their own way and none other can match it. That is what you do with your Christian religion. There are more Christian Churches that just yours and Christ made it sound like he put them there.
          I just want you to consider what I say and use the second commandment – every time he speaks the words “love each other” in the N.T. Please, consider the love a father has for his son. It is an emotion Amos. Truly.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “You have to love everyone, but you do not have to like anyone.”

            nope … you dont have to DO either …… as fallen man is not capable …. and you are making new law for the christian …..

          • MamaBearly

            Ok Amos, you go ahead and believe it but don’t expect me to sit back and watch you teach your warped way of believing that does not guarantee anyone Salvation.
            What we are given grace for, is the forgiveness of past sins when we are water baptized, the baptism of repentance (scriptures) and the continued grace to those who repent, but Jesus said to follow everything he directed in the Gospel, and that is where you are going wrong. Can you honestly believe that repentance is the only thing Jesus wants or that those would be who Jesus is looking for to fill his heaven? Amos, If anyone is not a good person… you won’t believe me, believe the scriptures, and when I give you scriptures you should always make sure of the context of the book I refer it to. I personally always check because I am making sure the person is not twisting the scriptures and teaching incorrectly too. (I’ve seen it already on this board.)
            Matthew 25:37-46
            37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
            38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
            39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
            40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
            41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
            42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
            43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
            44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
            45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
            46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

            Do you not realize that God will be testing people to see if they are good people?
            It is, again, in the scriptures, as you see.

            One of the people you are so sour to, could be a test from God. It is possible and besides do you want to take a chance and treat everyone who disagrees with you badly without realizing one of them is your “seeing him naked and not clothing” him.

            And that is what is going to happen to you. IT STATES IT PLAINLY Amos.

            If you do not treat people the way you want to be treated it is against Jesus’ command.

            If you do not show the Fruit of the Spirit, that is against Jesus’ command.
            IT is ALL there, Amos. Every single one of those things I said. Open your eyes and your mind Amos, don’t let other people steal your salvation by being wrong and convincing you it is right. Listen to me, please!!
            If you continue to believe that you do not need to do what Jesus told us to do you will not get that salvation that you want so much. Please listen.

            Jesus was in charge he was given all authority by his Father. HE led us through how he wants us to behave as Christians representing Him on Earth, so we will draw people to our goodness and it will shine a light to Give Glory to God. That’s in scripture too.

            You can’t represent Jesus by being rude and miserable Amos. please. Even a hateful God like you say he is would not want you to be like that. Not from what that scripture says about not being given salvation for the righteous.

            Not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will be saved. Some will be punished because they did not follow Jesus’ Word. You can’t say you are following Jesus without trying to be a better person. No person is anywhere near what Jesus is as a person. But he tells us that he wants us to try because when we fail we can be sure he will still be with you, still supporting you until you can stand again. Christians are supposed to be good people; why do people not act properly to be a good person? That means good manners Amos, a child mimics who they are around and if you are acting like this in front of any young children that admire you, take that into consideration and don’t teach a child to be rude and miserable.

            If you do not act like you do here in front of children, then you behave within the ‘proper’ behaviour mark. People don’t want their children to be like that.
            Poor Amos won’t read to this point. Sad….

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ………….

          • MamaBearly

            Just say NO to acting childishly Amos. Just say NO…

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored ……….

        • NCOriolesFan

          If you have to love someone to find approval you are even more lost. Read 1 Corithinans 13.

      • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        God not only is a God of Love, but He is a Righteous God, who dwells in unapproachable Glory, where sin cannot stand.

        If we encourage our brothers and sisters in Christ TO sin, then we call Christ’s death on the cross to be worthless. As Christians, we are to repent of our sins – die to them – and be born again in the newness of Christ.

        If we find a brother caught in sin, we are to go them in love, first in private and try to get them out of their sin. If they don’t repent, we go back with 2 or 3 witnesses and try again, and if they still don’t repent, we go before the church and treat them as sinners who still need to be saved. (MT 18:15-17) Nowhere did Jesus say to just ignore their sin, or to redefine God’s Word so that sin no longer exists or is not “a big deal”.

        • MamaBearly

          We need to let anyone know if they are sinning, but we do not have to do it with hate in our voices to the unbelievers, and that is what I am trying to explain to the other posters. It is one thing to tell people they are sinners, but to go on without telling them the hope of salvation, will be a waste of time without the rest to go with it.
          Righteousness should include treating people well. The posters I’m talking about attack anyone here that is not a believer and are quite demeaning to them. I don’t think that is the way to act like a Christian. Behaving like that will never convince them to listen to the gospel. We are supposed to reflect Jesus in our behaviour and they don’t seem to think that is so. They believe they need to do nothing for salvation but Jesus told us to obey his commands, and there was quite a bit about us being the light that shines to show Jesus and give Glory to God. Being hateful towards anyone is against God’s Word if it is done with a bad attitude, rather than trying to speak of the hate of the sin; I just keep trying to explain this but I often get no where and I start again another time.
          I just want them to look at what I say and pray that God will open their eyes. If they are confident of their belief, reading the gospel should not have any effect unless God opens their eyes to the Love they do not understand.
          I appreciate your post, Thank you. I never support the sin. I just supported Equal rights for People, and they think that because it was about gays that I support their sin and I do not. There is no reason to take away their equal rights because it has nothing to do with abetting their sin. Jesus would not tell us to treat gays badly at all, but to refuse to serve them? To not sell them groceries? That is too far. It’s wrong and I can’t help supporting it because gays are still people, as are we, and they are sinners, as we are.
          But the sin is something I trust God about so I need to agree that it is a sin, because of God’s Word. I leave those things up to God, as he is the one to decide who is punished and who is not.
          I hope this helps you understand my position. I do appreciate that you backed me up about a brother who sins, but it has been more about the sinner than a believer.
          And they do not have any patience or love for the people they KNOW their sin.
          Blessings!

    • Wesley Willis

      What’s a sin? Being gay? Sin, as described in your old book, was created by/allowed by/sanctioned by your god himself. So he is responsible for creating sin. Plus, don’t you think he created the individuals that you think are sinners?

      • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        “Being Gay”? Are you talking about Same-Sex Attraction? That is a temptation to sin, just as is lusting after a woman who is not your wife, coveting your neighbors possessions, desiring to kill the person who cut you off in traffic, etc.

        Actual sin is following through on the temptation – engaging in homosexual behavior, adultery, theft, murder, etc.

        • Wesley Willis

          So having a sexual relationship with your same sex partner is equivalent to murder? What if they are married? Then is it sin?

    • Michelle Thomas

      Yes, but we’ve all committed some kind of sin(s) if not all of them no? So if someone is openly having an affair in the same choir what would that church do? They’re suppose to confront them in private and encourage them to change their ways (ie, repent). After that, it gets ugly, but nowadays confrontation is ugly at any level. Sad, some confrontation is just and called for and definitely needed. Being careful of that judgement line, that’s the real problem isn’t it?

      • Chet

        In dealing with open rebellion, where is “that judgment line” to be found in God’s Word? Christ Jesus was no compromiser, nor John Baptist, nor Apostle Paul, nor any other men of God even though they too were all sinners with feet of clay. Yet, they cried aloud and spared not….

        • wandakate

          Yes, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD, however we are called to confess those sins, to repent of them and finally to forsake them. These things we MUST do in order to be found worthy and enter into the coming Kingdom of GOD on earth.

          • Chet

            Agree 100%. Thank the good Lord we believer’s are clothed in the righteousness of Christ and thus found to be faultless to stand before the Throne…

          • wandakate

            I do NOT however believe in OSAS (once saved-always saved) simply b/c it’s NOT Biblical.
            JESUS said He would not tolerate the backslidden, the lukewarm, idle Christian. He told us He would rather we be hot or cold but “not” lukewarm, b/c if we were lukewarm he would spew us out of his mouth (have nothing to do with us). There are MANY lukewarm, backslidden fallen away Christians and they must “get right with GOD”. They think just b/c they were once saved that they have “nothing” to do otherwise, but just count on his righteousness, mercy and grace. YES, we are saved by grace, but we shall be judged by our works. JESUS said in Revelation…My reward is with me to give to each according to his WORKS shall be. James told us…
            Our FAITH without our WORKS is dead. And many Christians are not doing any work for the Kingdom.
            JESUS said that it’s the ones who DO the will of the FATHER GOD that will be in the coming Kingdom of GOD. Our actions are always louder than our words…
            A Christian is only faultless if He is living according to the word of GOD and obeying His commandments which are still valid until a thousand generations are up. Hope you are in agreement still.

          • Chet

            I am in agreement, save your next to the last sentence: In this earthen vessel, no Christian will ever live up to God’s perfect standard of holiness in his own strength and will power. No one has ever loved God with all his heart, mind, soul and strength, even as he has loved his neighbor. Our merciful God saves us via the shed blood of Christ and not only saves us, but, he must keep us as well, as we all fail to one degree or another in this Christian life.

            In no wise am I suggesting a Christian is free to live as he chooses without penalty. If one is truly saved one will desire to live a transformed and redeemed life and yield to the then indwelling Holy Spirit. One who thinks he can be saved and somehow incrementally or flat-out fall back or yield to his former ways and get by is fooling himself as God will not tolerate willful sin in a believer’s life anymore than than that of the unsaved. I know from firsthand experience when one backslides God will deal with such one in ways one cannot imagine to get our attention and restore our rightful place and regain His fellowship as the Good Shepherd of his all too often wandering sheep. Look how he dealt with Israel… We, dear sister, have tons more in common than that which would served to divide us.

          • Florenca Mcdowell

            Repent for homosexual lifestyle is to leave it. Not to say your sorry and CONTINUE IN SIN

          • wandakate

            I said to FORSAKE it, which means to give it up…

      • Florenca Mcdowell

        The problem is for people like you who seemed to forget that JESUS was against ALL SIN.

        • wandakate

          I do believe that I read in the Bible…If you have broken one commandment, you’ve broken them ALL!!!

    • wandakate

      The Bible does tell us that the “sexually” defiant souls will NOT be entering the kingdom of GOD. GOD told us that men are NOT to be with men, and women are NOT to be with women PERIOD!
      Our choice boils down to this, Are you going to obey GOD and do what He told us to do “OR” are you going to ignore GOD, be disobedient and live life your own way????? If we do the latter we will NOT be in Heaven (the coming Kingdom of GOD). We will suffer for eternity the consequences of our immoral lifestyles/actions b/c our actions (what we do) are what is meaningful…How much more clear could it be? GOD is NOT a GOD of confusion. Either we live and obey or we live and disobey. After all it is our choice, we suffer our own fate, by our own choosing. Remember GOD does not change, it’s we human souls that are changing and choosing. We do have a choice to accept or reject His word. There isn’t anybody else to blame but ourselves.

    • Peter Stone

      Amen!

  • Suzanne Leong

    PS Houston, it is either you know the Bible or you don’t, there is no compromise…

    Carl Lentz, who leads Hillsong New York with Houston’s son…’And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.'”

    Carl Lentz you should read your Bible first. Christ said, “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46,47).

    Moses wrote five books in the Bible and he wrote explicitly about God’s utter condemnation against homosexuality (eg Genesis: destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Leviticus: laws against sexual immorality including homosexuality). Christ declared the destruction of the sexually immoral and perverse Sodom and Gomorrah more than once (eg Lk 17:28-30, Matt10:15; 11:24, Jude1).

    So Pastor Lentz, wait no more, go and read the Word of God, prayerfully and daily, else you are the blind leading the blind.

    • Wesley Willis

      Condemning people for who they are is sick and disgusting. Using an old book to justify that condemnation is even more disgusting, hateful, and immoral.

    • Michelle Thomas

      thank you! good job on your research!

      • Lloyd Peacock

        this is not research, this is regurgitated nonsense..Read your bible correctly do the right thing and look each word up and its’ meanings in Hebrew, Greek and Aramic and you will get a different definition each time.Again you regurgitated the old Granny’s myth of Sodom and Gomorrah. Homosexuality was not the issue and if you researched it properly, you will find that out., but one cannot convince one who is going to stay on the road of ignorance..Blessings to you and may Holy Spirit guide you and correct you as you read Scripture., and may the light that is Jesus come to fruition in you life..

        • Florenca Mcdowell

          LLOYD and we will know them by their fruits. Apostates like you are among the many false liars foretold in the end. Your blessings don’t mean anything if you are a Homophobe believer

    • wandakate

      OH the blind leading the blind are also known as wolves in sheep’s clothing are they not? Beware, do you smell a rat? Red Flag WARNING.
      There are MANY sins and that is only one of them, but yet it will receive condemnation from above.

  • NCOriolesFan

    Hey Brian, I guess it was not Jesus’ place to tell the woman at the well to, sin no more, right.

  • Kirk

    “Mealymouthed Christian” is the ultimate oxymoron.

    Can’t believe someone is so intellectually shallow that they would use that old line “Jesus never said anything about it.” The response to that is: “Well, if he believed any differently than the other Jews of his day, why didn’t he say so?”

    He never said anything about sending porn to kids, either, but I just betcha he would not approve.

    • Garbage Adams

      All right, well if you can’t use the words that Jesus DID use to explain why something is verboten, where does that leave you intellectually?

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        Matthew 19 …. Christs affirms what His creation is and continues to be …. anything outside of that is not His ….. and he affirms Moses writings again and again ……..

      • Kirk

        Not my day to feed trolls.

        I’ve got February 30, 2052 open. Mark your calendar.

        • Garbage Adams

          Right, because anyone who asks what gives you carte blanche for bigoted statements just has to be a troll.

  • InTheChurch

    Does he know that one of his worship leaders in NYC is gay and living with his partner?

    • Amos Moses – He>i

      they were removed from that position and not sure they are part of that “church” any longer …………

  • HpO

    I hear you, sister Heather Clark, but I don’t like what I’m hearing.

    For according to Pew Research Center, June 26, 2017, “Support for Same-Sex Marriage Grows, Even Among Groups That Had Been Skeptical: For first time, as many Republicans favor as oppose gay marriage”:

    “Younger white evangelicals have grown more supportive: 47% of white evangelical Millennials and Gen Xers – age cohorts born after 1964 – favor same-sex marriage, up from 29% in March 2016”.

    Among them, apparently, is “Carl Lentz” of “Hillsong New York”, whose Evangelical testimony to “CNN that … year” of “2014”, which you reported, was, “Jesus was in the thick of an era where homosexuality, just like it is today, was widely prevalent. And I’m still waiting for someone to show me the quote where Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people. You won’t find it because he never did.”

    • God is a triune God. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three the same yet separate as His will dictates and all three speaking with one voice and one accord so yes….Jesus had plenty to say about the sin of same sex sex aka homosexuality.

      • Amen.

      • Wesley Willis

        How did you determine that what you are saying is actually true?

        • 1 John 5:6-8New King James Version (NKJV)

          The Certainty of God’s Witness

          6 This
          is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but
          by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the
          Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth:[a] the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

          • Wesley Willis

            HOW did YOU determined it was true (not what a book has printed in it). And HOW did you determine this book is true and other old books are not true?

          • I am soon to be 64 yrs old and have known God on a personal basis for a long time and He has proven Himself to me more times than I can count.

            God and His Word are the real deal. Both are holy, true and unchanging.

          • Wesley Willis

            How does proof that he exists to you help ME? Your personal experience isn’t proof for me. Next time you talk to him can you tell him to show himself to me in a way that is undeniable?

          • If you honestly seek Him you will find Him just as I and millions of others already have.
            ———————

            Jeremiah 29:11-13King James Version (KJV)

            11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

            12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

            13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

          • Wesley Willis

            Nope. I’ve tried and it’s not there so far. Your god should know exactly what it takes to convince me he’s real (not you, me). Either he doesn’t want me to know or he doesn’t care.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “Your god should know exactly what it takes to convince me he’s real (not you, me). Either he doesn’t want me to know or he doesn’t care.”

            He does know those things ….. and your second observation may be right …. but it remains to be seen ………

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            BTW ….. God is not your bellhop …. or your waiter ………

          • Wesley Willis

            Didn’t say he was. But if my “soul” depends on me believing in him, and if me believing in him occurs after him convincing me he’s real, then the ball is in his court.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God decides if and when or if EVER that you get saved ….. and the ball was never in your court ………. God has always had the ball because it is His ball ……… again …. SO WHAT ………..

      • HpO

        But “Jesus had plenty to say about the sin of [opposite] sex aka [hetero]sexuality”, too; what’s your point? For when it comes to fornication and marriage, it’s both hetero- and homo-sexual Christians who stand guilty for judgment to hell before God and Jesus, don’t you think?

        And what about this freak-of-nature happening among Bible Christians and Bible Churches?

        According to Charisma News, “Shocker: Study Shows Most Christian Men Are Into Porn”, October 7, 2014:

        “A new national survey of Christian men reveals shocking statistics pertaining to high rates of pornography use and addiction, plus rampant sexual infidelity among married Christian men. The 2014 survey was commissioned by a nonprofit organization called Proven Men Ministries and conducted by Barna Group among a nationally representative sample of 388 self-identified Christian adult men. The statistics for Christian men between 18 and 30 years old are particularly striking … (and) for middle-aged Christian men (ages 31 to 49) … no less disturbing … Even married Christian men are falling prey to pornography and extramarital sexual affairs at alarming rates … These alarming statistics are not limited to those who nominally consider themselves Christian. Those who identify themselves as born-again Christians have similar struggles with pornography and affairs”!

        • Amos Moses – He>i

          “it’s both hetero- and homo-sexual Christians who stand guilty for judgment to hell before God and Jesus, don’t you think?”

          ummm … NO ….. no such thing as a homosexual “christian” … it like saying a loyal subject in open rebellion to his king ….. contradiction in terms …. and all christians stand before Christ condemned …. now the statistics you point out …. not sure that applies to the truly saved christian …. but just a number of those CLAIMING to be …. they might be and they might not …. we cannot tell except by their actions ….. and the actions as you describe would say they are not nor ever were ………

          • Amen brother.

          • HpO

            “Those who identify themselves as born-again Christians hav[ing] similar struggles with pornography and affairs” are, therefore, according to Amos Moses – He>i, “are not nor ever were ………”? – “born-again Christians”?

            How convenient, effortless, is the counsel of a wise brother to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus “ha[ving] similar struggles with pornography and affairs”.

            “O wicked and adulterous generation”, Jesus chastised the Elect at the time.

            “ummm … they might be and they might not …. we cannot tell except by their actions ….. and the actions as you describe would say they are not nor ever were ………”, you know what I’m talking about, right, Lord & Savior?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “according to Amos Moses – He>i, “are not nor ever were ………”? – “born-again Christians”?”

            wrong …. according to God, Christ and SCRIPTURE ……….. the rest is ignored ……….

          • HpO

            “ignored” = ignorant

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            ignored …. and TOS violation …..

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “”O wicked and adulterous generation”, Jesus chastised the Elect at the time.”

            hmmmm …. lets see that is Matthew 16 ….
            16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
            16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
            16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
            16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
            16:5 And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread.

            He was addressing the “The Pharisees also with the Sadducees” ….. and they WERE NOT of the Elect ………. not a good idea to LIE on Christ and His words like that …….. that is BLASPHEMY ……….

          • HpO

            That’s for those Elect guys.

            This is for you Elect guys – both of the wicked & adulterous generation, says Master:

            Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd with HIS DISCIPLES, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in THIS ADULTEROUS AND SINFUL GENERATION, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            God has does not have two groups of the Elect …. sorry …..

          • HpO

            Amos Moses – says “He>i” – but “ignored” Mark 8:34-38

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            “8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
            8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
            8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
            8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
            8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

            okay …. so what ………

          • HpO

            Who, then, are “His disciples … in this adulterous and sinful generation” and what’s their problem according to Jesus? He who has ears to hear, let him hear Him AGAIN in Mark 8:34-38! I’m not here to teach you, though you seem to always teach everybody here. Why is that, fellow brother in Christ Jesus?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            first your quotation is out of context and devoid of its meaning other than one you are trying to impose on it …….. you seem to be confused about what you are quoting and its meaning ……. and i really see no connection to your Mark quote and the point you are trying to make ………. the scriptures define what makes a person a disciple as opposed to an apostle ……. if you want to try and explain what you think it means …. please be my guest ……

        • Homosexuality is sexual immorality just as is the rest of the sexual sins. So what is your point?

  • billinghamboy

    A look at The Lord’s teaching on Kingdom values will help in all of this.See Luke 16:16-18.The law is not to be abandoned not even the smallest stroke in a Hebrew letter,acccording to Jesus as He speaks openly of Him and Her and divorce v18.Paul goes on to explain further in Romans etc.The OT law shows us our need to repent and receive help and wholeness through the Saviours Blood.

  • Amos Moses – He>i

    well it appears a lot of the detritus has been removed … Thnx Heather …. or whomever the Mod is ….

    • brucewang

      Yes, it’s nice when they get rid of people’s posts that just say “ignored” over and over.

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        they did because the people who were being ignored were disruptive and when theirs were deleted so was mine …. Their HOUSE …. Their RULES ….. and i am good with that ….

        • brucewang

          Hmm, maybe you could save time and bother by not doing it in the first place?

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            i was not being disruptive …. i was ignoring their attempts and making them aware of it ….

      • Amos Moses – He>i

        should be a warning to you …….. this is a christian forum for that type of discussion …. not the spreading of propaganda ……. and lies ………

        • brucewang

          Why? I wouldn’t waste my time on such nonsense.

          • Amos Moses – He>i

            and yet you are here …………

  • Reason2012

    Keep reading God’s Word for yourselves, people – do not be deceived by those who try to get you to think God has changed His mind on what He has made clear in His Word. Even Jesus pointed out that many would be cast out, and few would find eternal life.

    Matthew 7:13-15 “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

    • wandakate

      He said many things but another that comes to mind is…Many will say to me on that day LORD, LORD and will NOT enter the Kingdom of the FATHER. ONLY the ones that do the will of the FATHER will enter.
      It’s our OBEDIENCE that is going to matter. It’s not what we say, it’s what we DO! Actions are louder than words. That also applies to His 10 commandments. Are they still valid? Do they matter? Are they obsolete? Are they irrelevant? GOD doesn’t change. He’s the same yesterday, today and tomorrow therefore how did His laws change? They were our code of conduct. They were for a thousand generations according to scripture. They were NOT done away with when JESUS died. He came to strengthen them and fulfill them, NOT to do away with them. We must NOT be deceived. Christians say they can honor the big 10. Why can’t they? Simply b/c they don’t want to. They prefer to live their lives “their way” and not “GOD’s way”. It’s their choice.

  • Chet

    Preacher, how about adulterers and fornicators. Should they be allowed to “pursue happiness” as well?

  • Susan

    Jesus said to “Go, and sin no more.” Also, throughout the Bible it talks about repentance. Sadly this world downplays our sins. And yes we do sin, but we should ask forgiveness, and repent. We forget that God is a Holy and Righteous God. And he hates sin. We are to please Him, and not ourselves.