Atheist Activist Group Seeks to End Bible Classes at North Carolina Elementary Schools

Born again Bible pdSALISBURY, N.C. — A prominent atheist activist organization is seeking to end the presentation of optional Bible classes at several elementary schools in North Carolina.

The Madison, Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) recently sent a letter to officials with the Rowan-Salisbury School System after it received a complaint from an unidentified individual who took issue with the Bible being taught to children in public school. ‘

According to reports, the 45-minute classes are being held at Cleveland, Woodleaf and Mount Ulla Elementary Schools and parents may opt their children out of the instruction if they wish. FFRF says that it was informed that one class “presented the Bible as literal fact, including teaching a seven-day creation, giving students examples of ‘God’s plan’ that ‘clearly’ showed the universe was created with a purpose, and supposed examples of the Bible predicting scientific discoveries.”

“These classes are flagrantly unconstitutional,” the letter, written by attorney Patrick Elliott. states. “Presenting the text of the Bible as true in a public school violates a host of Supreme Court cases.”

He asserted that the classes are still wrongful even though parents may opt out their children.

“It is irrelevant that parents may excuse students from the elementary Bible classes,” the letter continued. “Suggesting that children who do not wish to be subjected to religious activity at their school should be segregated from their classmates is reprehensible. … It makes no difference if some parents would like the Rowan-Salisbury School system to teach the Bible as fact to its students.”

Elliott asked that district officials put an end to all elementary school Bible classes, and also investigate religious studies in the upper grade levels.

  • Connect with Christian News

“The district must take the necessary corrective action to ensure that the Bible is only studied by mature students for academic purposes, in classes taught by teachers with no religious bias, using objective course materials,” he wrote.

The district says that it is looking into the matter, but has declined to comment at this time. Some parents state that they had no problem with their children being taught Christian values in school.

“They did a good job for him,” Jimmy Lookabill, whose grandson attends Woodleaf Elementary, told WSOC-TV. “He took it to heart and he’s been a good kid.”

“The Bible stories that they teach children when they’re younger, to me, teaches them to be better people—how to treat people better,” parent Tammy Jenkins added, noting that her children didn’t have the option to study the Bible when they attended Landis Elementary.

As previously reported, the first textbook used in the American colonies even before the nation’s founding, “The New England Primer,” was largely focused on the Scriptures, and was stated to be popular in colonial schools for at least one hundred years. It used mostly the King James Bible as reference, and spoke much about sin, salvation and proper behavior.

“In Adam’s fall, we sinned all,” it read, in teaching children the alphabet, using Adam as an example of the letter A.

In 1647, the Massachusetts Bay Colony passed “The Old Deluder Satan Act,” which required that children be taught to read so they could learn to read the Bible.

“In being one chief project of that old deluder, Satan, to keep men from the knowledge of the Scriptures, … and that learning may not be buried in the graves of our forefathers in Church and Commonwealth, the Lord assisting our endeavors, it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof, that every township in this jurisdiction, after the Lord hath increased them to the number of fifty householders, shall then forthwith appoint one within their town to teach all such children as shall resort to him to write and read,” it read in part.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • James Grimes

    Again! The Useless are intruding into a local issue. I wonder if the original complainer ever went to the school administrators or did she run directly to The Useless. How was she involved that she felt so offended? As long as the school administrators stand their ground, the students will continue to benefit from their classes.

    Atheists, don’t bother to respond. I’m not interested in Atheists’ opinions.

    • Ralph Spoilsport

      Violating the constitution isn’t a “local issue”, and being offended aren’t the grounds to have this stopped.

      Useful idiots like yourself will gladly support government promotion of religion, until the government decides to promote some other religion — but by then it’s way too late for you to protest.

      • James Grimes

        I’m not interested. I guess the best you can do is to resort to personal attacks. That’s the only thing Atheists are capable of going. In any event, your comment is meaningless and your presence here is insignificant. Next time, please follow directions.

        • Toad D. Wart

          James your mental illness is funny.

          • James Grimes

            🙂

          • Rose

            Isn’t this a little out of hand? I understand that Toad D. Wart and Ralph Spoilsport were incorrect in their statements, but at the same time, we shouldn’t talk down to other people by saying their presence is ‘insignificant’. We’re taught to love our enemies, not display disgust or hate to them.

          • James Grimes

            Rose, their presence on this Christian site is insignificant because of their hostility, insults, and anti-God, anti-Christian rants. For that reason we don’t tolerate them.

          • Rose

            I understand that, but one comment of kindness maybe all they have. That can help us witness to them, and maybe get them help. God sent them here for a reason, and though their intention may have been to argue and insult, we can use that to our advantage at saving them.

          • James Grimes

            The casual Atheists are more open to receiving the Gospel than the militants who stalk this site. In my several years of ministry I have found that once the Gospel is shared, the name calling and insults begin. Go visit an atheist site and see how long it takes.

            Blessings.

          • Rose

            I won’t lie, I foolishly got on an atheist site and argued with an atheist, and it didn’t work. The lesson I learned from that is don’t argue with atheists on atheist sites, instead professionally debate on those who chose to get on Christian sites. Yes casual atheists are more open to receiving the Gospel than the more aggressive ones, but still God sent them to this site for a reason. Shouldn’t we as Christians present the facts while displaying the fruits of the spirit?

          • morgan

            Dear Ms. Rose,
            I have also witnessed ‘casual Christians’ whose behavior, speech, and comportment I would never emulate in a million years.

          • James Grimes

            Been there and have done that. Results: I have been cursed at, insulted, and have received death threats. For that reason, I have concluded that militant Atheists trolling Christian sites to be hostile and abusive are useless. I am sure I am on a lot of hate lists where I have a lot of company.

            Let me know how it goes for you.

          • morgan

            Could you please present evidence of “death threats”? That’s quite unusual and I would like to know so I can avoid such sites.

          • brbr2424

            That would be quite unusual. The thinking required to be an atheist is not conducive to making death threats on adherents of any religion. Christians often make death threats on atheists. The questioning and skepticism by atheists of religious belief is so disconcerting to the insecure believers that many resort to threats.

          • Rose

            At least you tried. I couldn’t stand being unprofessional during a debate and at least not setting some sort of influence. And as I have said before, Christians are going to be persecuted for their beliefs but that only means you’re doing it right. And I believe that God will use whatever you said to those Atheists to his benefit. But if you’re standing up for Christ and being mean about it, how are people going to see Christ through you? At least that’s the way I see it. You have your opinions and I have my own. I respect that you have tried in the past.

            God Bless, I’ll pray for you

          • James Grimes

            Rose, there’s a difference between being mean toward those people and being intolerant of them I choose to be intolerant and leave the meanness to them. Thank you for your good thoughts.

          • Rose

            I understand. Thank you for explaining that to me.

          • DuneDude

            You will notice you are such a worthless person that no one followed through knowing that your opinions are only opinions and have no foundation in reality or in Christ’s love.

          • DuneDude

            Would one of you please describe a “casual atheist” and cite some research and not your personal opinion.

          • Rose

            I believe that no one can truly say what a ‘casual atheist’ is besides which atheists a person has met in the past. I’ve met a variety of atheists, ones kind and accepting, and others more aggressive and hateful.

          • brbr2424

            Some of the more assertive atheists are former fundamentalists. Also when we find religion being pushed on us, we tend to want to push back.

          • Rose

            I can see what you mean by your second statement, but I don’t know what you mean by your first.

          • DuneDude

            There is no known proof of your statement. Were you a casual atheist who became an illiterate Christian?

          • Rob McClain

            it is an absolute certainty that people who talk to themselves are engaging in delusional behavior. The rest of us, specifically atheists and non believers do not need your help in getting a better grip on life. people who rely on reason, science, and logic are not the ones in need of assistance with their lives.

          • Rose

            First of I don’t talk to myself, I talk to my heavenly Father. Second of all, not everyone is as ‘happy’ as you do. Some people actually suffer in life with things like divorce, or bankruptcy, or with sin, and lots of other things. And to us, and to God, you definitely do need our help especially if you think that some cosmic accident is ‘reason, science, and logic’.

          • Rob McClain

            Have you heard the phrase, “One pair of hands working does more than a thousand clasped in prayer”? If you truly believe in an all powerful, all controlling ruler of the universe, why on earth should you think you can change his mind, or change his will by your pleading?

            Miss Rose, I spent 20 conflicted and confused years as a Christian and I can tell you that nothing fails like people on their knees, and nothing succeeds like men and women getting out and physically making things happen.

            Especially when those men and women are working to keep our educational system safe from the poison of religious inculcation and doggerel.

          • Rose

            I don’t change his mind, I pray so that I can have peace about a situation and so that God will give me wisdom. I pray for his will to be done and that I remember that whatever happens is for the better. You can’t change the will of God through prayer. And I’m sorry you’ve spent so long in the dark, but you just got yourself further into the dark. And God works through people, through men and women doing what they think is right. But keeping religion out of schools, I have to disagree with. I’d rather learn about God than learn about math or science because he is all that matters. Not that I don’t know math or science, but he’s my number one priority, and I’d want my children to experience what I have experienced with God. There’s nothing like feeling loved from your creator.

          • Terry Firma

            “maybe get them help.”

            Wow. That’s not condescending at all.

          • Rose

            I didn’t mean it that way. I meant it more like ‘influence them to seek God’.

          • morgan

            Mr. Grimes,
            Have you every visited Atheist sites and read the venom and vitriol spewed by Christians? The road goes both ways, my friend.

          • DuneDude

            That is the royal “We” I presume.

          • James Grimes

            Rose, if you look at the pathetic insults thrown my way by these cowards, you will see that my assessment of The Useless is dead-on. I choose not to respond as I am the more mature compared to them. I have to say that they are very entertaining. I laugh at their insults. That’s just the way they are. There is no self – control and when they are not taken seriously, they become hostile.

            Stay active on this forum and share with other believers here.

          • bigpawn01

            “For that reason we don’t tolerate them.” and yet we are still here. you seem to indicate you are some kind of authority when you have none.

          • morgan

            Dear Rose,
            As an Atheist, I thank you very much for your comment.
            While philosophically opposed to Christianity itself, I have many USEFUL Christian friends, as well as Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, and even Mormon. None are USELESS.

          • Rose

            Dear Morgan,
            Thank you for being professional about this topic, it’s much appreciated.

        • Ralph Spoilsport

          I guess the best you can do is to resort to personal attacks.

          That’s hilarious coming from someone who, right out of the gate, refers to “The Useless”. Hypocrite.

          • James Grimes

            LOL

          • DuneDude

            That doesn’t make you mockery of intelligence any less objectionable.

          • jmichael39

            that’s quaint coming you…I’ve seen your opinions of those who disagree with you on issues.

          • Charles Montgomery

            Ralph he was stating a fact when he said The Useless

          • morgan

            And why, Mr. Montgomery, do you think that someone who disagrees with your supernatural position is “useless?”
            To label someone, or some group, as “useless” is to denigrate, demonize, and isolate. You are cheapening Human Beings by calling them “useless.” If your ‘faith’ compels you to label others as “useless” what type of faith do you practice?

          • Charles Montgomery

            morgan you are useless. And your evolution is not proven so stop acting like it is.

          • bigpawn01

            if you ever took the time to read a book other than the good ole king james you would know just how wrong your claims are. evolution has a very good foundation religion does not. try the greatest show on earth by richard dawkins but get some one to read it to you since you are not smart enough to understand anything you read. ouuh never mind i forgot you and your ged know more than any scientist anyway.

          • igfarben

            When Muslims and Satanists sue for the same access, you two will be crying like niches.

          • Charles Montgomery

            They don’t need to sue they already have access

          • MC

            He wasn’t lying. If you’re not being useful then you are useless and insignificant. If you weren’t Useless then your first comment wouldn’t have been deleted. Think about it.

          • morgan

            That is simply not correct, MC. Was my first comment deleted?
            Why? Did I disparage? No. Did I insult? No. Did I question, yes.

          • MC

            Can’t you see that I was not talking to you? I was talking to Ralph as it’s indicated next to my name.

          • morgan

            No. As to side-step your insult, I was wondering if I was confused.
            Apparently I was. Thanks for your putdown, it was unwarranted, christian.

          • MC

            Where was the “putdown”?

          • supup

            MC is just like Jesus, who said, Call one another useless, insignificant, insulting one another… Ephesians 4:32 NRSV. Or did I misinterpret that?

          • MC

            What’s sad is that you couldn’t understand logic.

        • Charles Montgomery

          Personal attacks is all Ralph has.

        • Tim Brand

          You only know the ad hominem, so I won’t bother engaging in meaningful conversation with you. Your picture is hilarious and you may be one of the ugliest old coots I’ve ever seen. You shouldn’t represent Christianity when the god of the bible would be ashamed to have any relationship with an ugly, closed minded cretin such as yourself.

          • James Grimes

            Thank you. I am sure this is the best you can do.

        • tatoo

          If you are not interested, why are you even on this site?

        • brbr2424

          The only way to respond to an ad hominem attack is a similar ad hominem attack against a strawman, no less. Good job.

      • david ramseur

        The classes are voluntary. There is no coercion. I thought that coercion was a factor in the debate. It looks as though FFRF just wants to take away people’s freedoms. The freedom to read the Bible and learn about God in school. These classes do not violate the constitution. Bible classes were mandatory when the Constitution was drafted for crying out loud. The school should stand its ground. People would be surprised at how many cases brought by the FFRF are lost when actually challenged.

        • Ralph Spoilsport

          Having classes in a public school is already coercion, but in any case, public schools don’t have the authority to teach religion. Anyone who wants the government to teach religion has no grasp of religious freedom.

          • Charles Montgomery

            Well Ralph if it upsets you get a tissue and take a moment we’ll wait. LOL So maybe the schools should stop teaching your evolution religion then.

          • alnga

            actually evolution is a religion as it adheres to the Humanist manifesto.

          • morgan

            alnga, that is simply not true. Do you really have to lie to make a point?

          • morgan

            Mr. Montgomery,
            Let’s not obfuscate the issue by confusing Science with religion.
            If you think Evolution is a ‘religion’ then I suggest you go back to school for remedial Science.
            However, the question remains – Why do you prefer the STATE to do what parents and the churches have failed to do?

          • Rose

            Fact! Science and religion go hand and hand. Religion explains why, while science explains how.

          • Charles Montgomery

            1. Cosmic Evolution – The origin of time, space, and matter with the Big Bang.
            2. Chemical Evolution – The origin of higher elements beyond hydrogen and helium.
            3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution – The origin of the stars and planets.
            4. Organic Evolution – The origin of life from non-life.
            5. Macro Evolution – Changing from one kind of animal into another kind. Ex: ape to human.
            6. Micro Evolution – Variation within the kinds. Ex: long-haired, short-haired, long-legged, short-legged, etc. Morgan I don’t need to go back to remedial Science. Of the six only one has been observed number 6. So the other five are purely religious. You believe or have faith that they happened.

          • Charles Montgomery

            Evolution is a religion morgan. IT is not proven but you still have faith it happened.

          • brbr2424

            By evolution religion, are you referring to science?

          • Charles Montgomery

            Ralph stop mixing evolution into science.

          • david ramseur

            Teachers, schools, administrators, etc… are not congress, so they are abiding by the first amendment. They are not establishing religion by offering these optional bible classes to their students. And they are also not prohibiting the free exercise of religion (for both teachers and students). Anything short of congress passing a law stating that so and so denomination is the national church of the USA is constitutional.

          • Ralph Spoilsport

            Teachers, schools, administrators, etc… are not congress, so they are abiding by the first amendment.

            Incorrect — the 14th amendment has incorporated the first amendment against state governments.

            Anything short of congress passing a law stating that so and so denomination is the national church of the USA is constitutional.

            A very long list of court opinions disagrees with you.

          • pastoredsmith

            You mean a very “short list” of court opinions disagrees with you. If you compare the “Christian friendly” opinions to the “Christian unfriendly” ones, the first is many times longer than the latter. First Amendment rights of Freedom of Religion in this country are the cornerstone of our freedoms. Nobody has the “right” to violate the Constitution. Not even SCOTUS or the POTUS; although both seem to think so these days. It is the judges on SCOTUS and the POTUS himself who disobey the laws at will.

          • Ralph Spoilsport

            Can you cite any court opinion that says teaching the bible in elementary public schools is OK? I thought not.

          • pastoredsmith

            May I ask you a question? If you don’t believe in God as you say, why are you trolling Christian sites? Looking for “converts,” perhaps? The problem here is that atheists HATE God. Not Allah. Not Buddha. Not Muhammad. Not any other. Just Jehovah God. That is because of one single thing. An atheist knows he must attack the truth if he is to prop up his weak “religion” of atheism. He knows that he would never attack a Muslim for fear of beheading. That is why your FFRF attacks anybody and everybody that dares express their CHRISTIAN viewpoint in public. Newsflash: You cannot stop the truth from getting out. It simply won’t work.

          • morgan

            Dear Mr. Smith,
            If one doesn’t understand the position of his opponent, he has no ground to stand on.
            One of the great things about Atheists(and yes, I’ve been an Atheist for over 40+ years) is that we want to study that which we disagree with. Why do we disagree? Out of petulance? Out of defiance? No. It all emanates from Human Curiosity. As an Atheist, I always study those positions opposed to mine. I want to know why there is a question. If you don’t know your opponent’s arguments, you are lost..
            And, judging by your statement, you are very lost, indeed.
            And a prodigious liar I may add. You call yourself a pastor?
            Your generalizations demonstrate an extremely weak grasp of Atheism. Perhaps when you grow up, we can talk.

          • pastoredsmith

            I do understand enough of your position as a God-hating atheist to know that you spend your time and effort trying to destroy all public influence of Christianity, and I know that you think your “reasoning” ability trumps that of the Almighty. I also know that your FFRF is a group of bullies and thugs who love to sue any public institution that dares ALLOW the free practice of Christianity. By trying to remove Christianity from the public, are you not fighting to institute your false “religion” in its place? After all, a “religion free” zone is an atheist zone. And, you can call me names if you wish. I’m not the one lying here, Morgan.

          • morgan

            Mr. Smith,
            I am not a member of FFRF. Your continued false generalizations completely undermine any message you are trying to convey to me.
            Your hostility is quite evident. And yes, You do lie.

          • pastoredsmith

            Sorry, my message is truth. I am not hostile towards you personally. I am simply defending my faith and the things it teaches. And, I will defend it with my life. You call me a liar, and you accuse me. And, you think I’m the bad guy here? Sir, it is your atheist views that are the lie and distortion that is being forced on a Christian news site here. If you are a “peaceful atheist,” why are you here? Why do you attack Christians on a site that is clearly not designed for atheists? You have plenty of those. Go there and spend your time. That is, unless I am right and it is you wishing to silence Christians.

          • morgan

            Did I attack anyone? Again, you lie and lie some more. Why?
            Again, I have every right to go and discuss anything I wish anywhere I wish to discuss it. Many Christians go to Atheist sites, so what’s your problem? Discussion cuts both ways.
            Christian sites are not “exclusive” to Christians only. (but apparently that is something you would advocate)
            I never said you’re a “bad guy”(another misconception by you),
            and my views are not lies – they are simply opposed to yours.
            And no one is “FORCING” anything here. It’s a discussion forum.
            Why is everything that you don’t agree with “a lie?”
            My goodness, I’ve been around pastors all my life and you appear to be the most hostile. Good Day, Sir.

          • pastoredsmith

            Discussion? No, an attack. If I went to an atheist site where you were on, you would accuse me of attacking atheists. Happens all the time. No, you are here looking for “recruits.” I also don’t think you are a bad person; just mixed up on your beliefs. I do pray that you reconsider your position on who God is and what He has done for you. Your eternal soul depends on it. Good day to you as well.

          • morgan

            And you, dear sir, are an irrational liar. I know pastors, and you are NO pastor. When you learn to stop generalizing then perhaps we have room for discussion. Otherwise, good day, sir.

          • MC

            You’re an atheist, you know nothing about being a Pastor, your opinion on the subject is irrelevant.

          • brbr2424

            The FFRF sues institutions as a last resort. They only go after people who violate the US Constitution. First they send a letter pointing out when there is a violation. Sometimes the person or institution violating the constitution are just ignorant that they are doing so and they stop and everyone is happy. Play by the rules that make the US better than Iran and ISIS and nobody gets hurt.

          • brbr2424

            To say that atheists HATE (all caps were yours) God is so ignorant it must hurt. Atheists do not believe in God or gods. You cannot hate something that you do not believe in. Do you hate Zeus? Zeus was a god from the past.

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s really funny. No, I don’t hate Zeus, nor do I believe in him. But, I don’t sue people who do. You are the bullies who sue anyone and everyone who dares express their Christian beliefs in public. Not me. You make me laugh.

        • morgan

          Mr. Ramsour, you can read the bible(s) and learn about your ‘god’ anytime you like.
          Where are the parents of these children?
          Where is the church?
          Why do you prefer the STATE to do what is ostensibly the role of the parents and the church?
          Do churches need the STATE to do their religious bidding?

          • david ramseur

            The children do not have to take these classes if they don’t want to.

          • david ramseur

            Churches and individuals need the state to conform to the constitution by completely staying out of our religious bidding.

        • C.P. Steinmetz

          1. Coercion is implicit when an authority figure – teacher – introduces religion. Children are taught and learn to believe the teacher. They cannot separate when to believe the teacher and when the teacher is teaching her/his own beliefs.

          2. That is why these classes do violate the Constitution.

          3. Religious activity by a school or it’s staff are illegal on school time with school children, with school resources.

          These are well established in law, and all the whining by Christians who are mad because they are losing their special privileges doesn’t change that fact.

          Now, please tell us some of the ‘many’ cases lost by the FFRF.

          • david ramseur

            Your logic should be applied to Darwinism which is devoid of any reasonable evidence. Yet kids are indoctrinated by this propaganda in school while access to the creationist viewpoint is actively squashed. Secularism or Atheism does not have a monopoly on the truth. Therefore, religious viewpoints should be encouraged in school. Only religion is capable of providing the concept of objective morality. It is therefore necessary to instill religion in the minds of children so that they will grow up to be morally accountable people. Legally, religion cannot be expelled from the schoolhouse as that would prohibit the free exercise of religion by U.S. citizens (children, teachers, administrators, parents, etc…). It is unconstitutional to deny Bible classes in the USA, despite recent revisionist court rulings. For over 150 years religion was not only accepted but encouraged in school and throughout society. The encouragement of religious teaching was backed by the 1st amendment of the constitution. The America we have today is opposite of the America that was founded. No wonder our nation is failing on every front nowadays.

          • morgan

            “…Darwinism which is devoid of any reasonable evidence. Yet kids are indoctrinated by this propaganda in school while access to the creationist viewpoint is actively squashed.’
            Both statements are patently false. Evolution (not ‘darwinism’ which is your term) has been demonstrated to be very real.
            Creationism is not science. Let the churches teach creationism.
            The State should NOT be doing the job churches and parents are supposed to do.

          • david ramseur

            Macro-evolution is not science. It is not observable. It is not seen to continue today. It is contrary to observable laws of nature such as biogenesis, entropy, irreducible complexity, organisms producing after their own kinds, etc… There is no transitional form evidence in the fossil record. What piece of evidence convinced you that macro-evolution is credible? Is it not just falling in line (in faith) with what the school textbooks propagate?

          • Evolution is a fact

            To paraphrase Mary McCarthy, “every word you write is a lie, including ‘and’ and ‘the.'”

          • Rose

            I can say that what you said was a lie, but it’s your opinion just as it is my opinion to say that ‘Evolution is a fact’ is a lie. You have your opinions and David has his. You have your beliefs on Darwin’s Theory and we have our beliefs on God. So saying that every word someone writes is a lie, is a mere opinion.

          • Evolution is a fact

            I do not have a “belief” in evolution. It is a fact, whether I believe in it or not. The problem is, there are many religious people who think that to accept evolution is to deny God. This is not true. You can be a Christian and still accept evolution. You can read the works of Dr. Ken Miller (http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/index.html) to learn more about this.

          • Rose

            You believe it is a fact though. You wouldn’t say it was a fact if you didn’t believe in it. Any who, I tried to pull up the link to see what you’re talking about and it didn’t pull up, so maybe if you can send me the link again or tell me what to google I’ll try to look it up. But I’m a bible literalist so I believe that God made made us in his own image. And just curious but what do you believe in?

          • Evolution is a fact

            Sorry about the broken link. Here is the correct one: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/index.html

            I believe in facts, no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable they may be. I didn’t always think this way and it was a fairly difficult process, but once I stopped believing in fairy tales and started demanding evidence for all claims, I became a much happier person.

          • Rose

            The link worked this time, thanks. And I guess you and I are kinda the same except reversed. If you are an Atheist, then yeah, it’s reversed. For me, learning about God was odd at first because he did all this amazing stuff out of thin air. It’s kinda hard at first, but it got easier and easier along the way because I started to have a relationship with him. Having a relationship with my heavenly father has made me a much happier person than from where I was before; which was somewhat agnostic. So yeah, we are the same.

          • Evolution is a fact

            I’m not trying to be a jerk by asking this question, because I really want to understand this. How does one have a relationship with someone you have never met?

          • Rose

            I understand you’re not being a jerk. But I have met him. I’ve seen him face to face. God speaks to everyone in a specific way. For me, he talks to me up front. He hugs me when I cry, and even when I’m not, he hugs me because he knows I’m hurting. I can’t tell you what he exactly looks like, but he’s always wearing a long white robe and has medium length hair. And even when I can’t see him, he speaks to me through the Holy Spirit. I understand that this might sound all like gibberish to you and just ‘crazy talk’ but it’s truth. I’ve gone back and forth thinking it’s my imagination, but God tells me things that I would never think of. That’s what keeps me from straying off.

          • Rob McClain

            John 1:18 should dissuade you and other believers from making further claims regarding your observations of invisible, non-existent entities.

            Your New Testament says you are a dissembler of the first order. You can believe, but please, don’t lie and tell us you’ve seen God when your own text says in multiple verses that God is not observable.

          • Rose

            The key words are ‘invisible non-existent entities’. God’s not fake. He’s not some invisible non-existent entity, he’s real. So, yes, God is observable if you’re open to it.

          • mrmike

            Im open, when can i meet him?

          • Rose

            You can meet him any time you want! He’s always with you. It’s just a matter of opening your eyes and letting him in. If you’ve accepted Jesus into your heart then it’s just a matter of listening. For me, it’s easiest when I’m listening to Christian Contemporary artists and with my eyes closed. But that is just me. It maybe different for you, I don’t know. But what I do know is that you have to really want to change, and you’ve got to be real with God about what’s going on in your life. God wants to change it, but you’ve got to let him.

          • mike

            ” I’m listening to Christian Contemporary artists”
            no no no. Music can put people in a trance, but that has nothing to do with jesus actually existing. It’s a cheap trick.

            “open your eyes.. with my eyes closed..ect”
            thats not how I “meet people”. Words have meaning. Instead of opening with “Jesus wants to meet you!” try being truthful and say “if you sit with your eyes closed and think about a character from the bible, then you may start to believe in him”.

          • Rose

            If you paid any attention you’d notice that that’s how I communicate with God. We’re different people, so it may be different for others. It may seem stupid to you, but for me, it’s easiest to communicate with God by listening to music and calling for him. The music, calms me down and keeps me on subject because I tend to be a scatterbrained person. For some people, they feel the music is a distraction. So you may not need that music. And it’s not your place to judge whether or not how I communicate with God works, because I know it works and God knows it works. Please do not be so quick to judging my methods especially when I say that it’s how I myself do it.

          • Sweetredtele

            Ok, suppose Evolution is false. Now provide all your scientific evidence for whatever you think happened. Peer reviewed articles in reputable journals please.

        • Terry Firma

          They’re “voluntary” only as much as parents can opt out. The default is constitutionally no good.

          Here’s a scenario for you. The district decides that all schoolchildren must be schooled in the True Word of Allah. You wouldn’t like that at all, I’ll bet. You and your brethren would hit the ceiling, and you wouldn’t be appeased one bit if they learned that it’s no big deal ’cause hey, “parents can just opt out.”

          And you know what? I’d agree with you.

          The Constitution is wisely written to make sure that the government may not favor one religion over another, or any religion over none. That makes the North Carolina school district’s promotion of Christianity illegal. If parents want to teach their kids bible verses, or texts from the Qur’an, they are free to do so — privately, separately from the public-school curriculum.

        • brbr2424

          Why is taxpayer paid-for educational time being spent promoting Christianity. If a child is sitting in the hallway while other students are being taught Christianity that is an unethical waste of resources. It also is using coercion and ostracism to win a child over to Christianity. You can do that in church but you can’t use those proselytizing techniques in a public school.

          We don’t get to override the constitution by popular vote.

      • Terry Chesnut

        Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia argued that the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit religious references in public places, including schools:

        “I think the main fight is to dissuade Americans from
        what the secularists are trying to persuade them to be true: that the
        separation of church and state means that the government cannot favor
        religion over nonreligion.”

        Scalia suggested that if Americans want a more secular political system, such as those in Europe, they can “enact that by statute, but to say that’s what the Constitution requires is utterly absurd.”

        At the heart of the argument over separation of church and state lies the age-old debate over the intent of the First Amendment:

        “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
        or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of
        the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a
        redress of grievances.”

        So is the intent “freedom of religion,” or “freedom from religion”? Justice Scalia argues that it is the former:

        • Jeffrey Missal

          So would you approve of ANY religion having a voice in government schools?

          • alnga

            No voice of any religion in the school government is sought nor intended. Your failure to read well is another matter.

        • morgan

          “…that the separation of church and state means that the government cannot favor religion over nonreligion.”
          Scalia if FLAT-OUT wrong. An American can be free from any and all religion. Why not? What Scalia is saying is implying that any religion is valid, just pick one – but you cannot click “none of the above.” He’s just wrong. The use of the words “of” and “from” can change within context. In the various bibles it does quote Jesus as saying “I am of the Father.” Can that also meanI am from the Father.” Just asking.
          But just keep this in mind…..Christianity is the 800 lb. Gorilla in the USA now, but it may not be in the future. Any whittling down of the Wall of Separation of State and Church will be exploited by EVERY other religion also, and some day one of these other religions will be the majority. Just think about it.

      • Charles Montgomery

        Ralph how is an optional Bible reading going to violate the constitution? Its not So stop being offended.

        • Ralph Spoilsport

          how is an optional Bible reading going to violate the constitution?

          Read some court opinions — “optional” doesn’t save violations of establishment of religion.

          • alnga

            questioning who’s opinion and the court case number.?

          • Ralph Spoilsport

            Engel v. Vitale (1962)
            There can be no doubt that New York’s state prayer program officially establishes the religious beliefs embodied in the Regents’ prayer. The respondents’ argument to the contrary, which is largely based upon the contention that the Regents’ prayer is “nondenominational” and the fact that the program, as modified and approved by state courts, does not require all pupils to recite the prayer, but permits those who wish to do so to remain silent or be excused from the room, ignores the essential nature of the program’s constitutional defects. Neither the fact that the prayer may be denominationally neutral nor the fact that its observance on the part of the students is voluntary can serve to free it from the limitations of the Establishment Clause, as it might from the Free Exercise Clause, of the First Amendment, both of which are operative against the States by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

            Abington v. Schempp (1963)
            Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment by Congress of any law “respecting an establishment of religion,” which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, no state law or school board may require that passages from the Bible be read or that the Lord’s Prayer be recited in the public schools of a State at the beginning of each school day — even if individual students may be excused from attending or participating in such exercises upon written request of their parents.

          • brbr2424

            Here is a listing of religious liberty cases http://www.firstamendmentschools.org/freedoms/religiouslibertycases.aspx

            Your interest in the court cases is a good first step in understanding this very important freedom we have in the US.

          • pastoredsmith

            That’s because you think that ANY sighting of Christianity in the public arena is a violation of the Constitution. You miss the obvious. 1) The Christian influence and inclusion in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence. 2) The Congress, at one point, actually voted funds to pay for printing Bibles. 3) this is “optional.” Not “required.” 4) “Establishing a religion” takes a LOT more than just a “public school” Bible class. Oh, yes. I would like for you to please site the case numbers of SCOTUS that made these classes “illegal.”

          • supup

            What Christian inclusion in the Constitution? I’d like a citation.

    • morgan

      Well, my opinion (as a 65-year old Atheist) is that it’s YOUR responsibility to teach your children the bible and biblical “values.” It’s not up to the state.
      Are you and your church such staggering failures at teaching your own children that You prefer the STATE teach your children?

      • bigpawn01

        exactly and if you are not interested in atheist opinion you need to turn off your internet because we are every where and we are free to comment any place you are.

    • morgan

      Dear Mr. Grimes,
      I’m not sure of your term “useless” as all people are useful, none are “useless.”
      To use “useless” is to cheapen and denigrate.
      Additionally, different opinions are very useful.
      Now, without insults, let me make my point (and yes, I’m an Atheist for over 40 years):
      Are you and your church such abject failures at instilling your ‘values’ in your children that you prefer the STATE to do it for you and your church?

      • Rose

        Dear Mr. Morgan,
        I hope that you realize that you have waltzed into a Christian site. I understand that you are standing up for your beliefs, but you’ve just thrown a flare up and said, ‘Come and get me’. You’ve stated your opinion, but this has gone on long enough and it’s gotten to the point where it’s becoming personal, like when you said, ‘are you and your church such abject failures at instilling your ‘values’ in your children that you prefer the STATE to do it for you and your church?’. Which can be very well taken as an insult. It’s not that they are abject failures at instilling values in children, it’s that they want children to have a little bit of bible learning every day. That’s all. School is a very influential place where parents can’t exactly monitor their children every minute. I’d feel so much better letting my children go to school knowing that they’re learning about the bible too.

        • Dave Burrier

          Dear Rose, Atheist have every right to be on here as you have every right to be on an Atheist site.
          Yes, school is a very influential place and there fore they will not be allowed to have bibles, qurans or other religious books. Unless of course it is inclusive of all in a religious studies class.
          If you desire to indoctrinate your own child into your belief system, please do so in your own home and church.
          Thanks

          • Rose

            But I don’t go onto an atheist site. You know why? Because if I did so I’d only be called a ‘bible thumper’ and that I would be ‘shoving my beliefs down their throats’. And for the record, I have done so and been told so. I’ve even been told that I should never have children. I believe that if you have a bible class, you should be offered a full study of religion in school, meaning that parents can chose whether their child can take classes on
            Atheism, Christianity, Jewish, and others. Religious parents already have the worry of whether their children will be influenced by what science classes teach, which is Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

          • Dave Burrier

            I am sorry about your experience on an Atheist site. The internet brings out the worst in some people. I have received abuse here and on other Christian sites and I try to just let it go. One exception is your own james grimes on this site who is a hate monger. He has picked up a sidekick, MC.
            Religious classes covering all faiths and non-faiths are OK, but bible classes, Quran classes or others, separately, are not.
            You must have been taught evolution in school and perhaps someone has told you that it is untrue(?).
            Two facts that you will have to accept: Evolution is going to be taught to your children. There will be no bible classes.
            Therefore, it will be entirely up to you to indoctrinate them into the bible version of creation.
            When my 3 children were young, I never tried to influence them in any way. Guess how they turned out. They are fine, well rounded, decent individuals.

          • Rose

            I understand that my future children may not have a bible class, I’m just saying that if there was a chance that they could, I would enroll them in one, and if they were interested in other religions, I would allow them to explore those as well. It’s merely what I think would be best for them.

    • morgan

      I will not respond due to my “uselessness.”
      Thank you for letting us know that you think other Human beings (who don’t agree with you) are ‘useless.”
      Now, I know what religion to not practice as I believe ALL people (and everything on this planet) is USEFUL. Nothing is useless. I guess we disagree….that makes me “useless.”

    • edman

      You are not interested in Atheist opinions, because you are blinded by your irrational thinking.

      • MC

        Why would an atheists opinion be relevant on a Christian site, why would we even care about their opinions? All an atheist believes is there is no God, we understand that’s your belief, so why would we be interested in anything else you have to say? Why would you think you are relevant?

        • morgan

          MC, you demonstrate why you should study more. Almost everything you said is either a broad generalization or a flat-out lie.
          Why?
          Our opinions matter, just like your opinions matter
          Why denigrate when you could discuss, maybe even build a bridge.
          But NOOOOOOOO – we are irrelevant according to Mr. Christian here.

          • MC

            Tell me, where was I lying? Tell me why you think an atheists opinion should matter and is relevant to Christians? Oh, abs Christians try to build a bridge all the time but it seems all atheists want to do is burn it down. Stop being intellectually dishonest.

    • DuneDude

      To have interest would imply intellectual honesty. James Grimes will never be accused to having an intellect let alone any honesty.

    • Daniel B.

      I’m an atheist. Why do you hate me? Because I don’t believe something?

      • James Grimes

        I don’t hate Atheists. I am just very intolerant of those who troll this site and who want to tell me that my Christian faith is wrong.

        • Daniel B.

          What you call trolling, I call reading and enjoying the freedom of the internet. If this site’s owners didn’t want everyone in the world to participate, they would have it set up on a password protected basis. Since it’s not password protected I assume I have just as much a right to be here as you do. So since we both have a right to be here, and a right to disagree with one another, I would like to know this: why does your religion need you to defend it? And why get so upset that some people don’t believe the same thing as you? I’m not being hostile here, I’m just asking questions to satisfy my own curiosity. I really find it odd that you would try to shut an entire group of people out of the discussion because you disagree with them. The Internet is for everyone, not just Christians.

          • James Grimes

            I had already given you an answer.

            I will continue to be polite to you. You are free to participate in this site and people here will respect you as long as you are not hostile, disagreeable, or insulting. If you turn out to be a jerk, as many of the militant Atheists have been, there goes the tolerance.

            Maybe God led you here and is starting to work in your life for conversion. Keep an open mind.

          • Daniel B.

            “I will continue to be polite to you. You are free to participate in this site and people here will respect you as long as you are not hostile, disagreeable, or insulting. If you turn out to be a jerk, as many of the militant Atheists have been, there goes the tolerance.”

            So if I disagree with you, I am a jerk?

          • James Grimes

            You can put a label on that if you wish.

          • Daniel B.

            That’s your label for people who you disagree with sir. I don’t like labels.

            I tend to converse with all types of people. Even people I disagree with. What if I’m wrong about something I’m totally sure about? That has happened before. It would be a tad foolish of me to just block information out that didn’t fit my current world view, don’t you agree?

          • James Grimes

            If you are respectful enough not to post any anti-God, anti-Christian, and anti-Bible rants, there will be no issues.

          • Daniel B.

            So do you admit that anyone is free to have an opinion and speak their mind as long as their opinion aligns with yours?

          • James Grimes

            I’m not admitting to anything.

            What is your purpose for your presence on this site? Is it your intention to be respectful and NOT hostile to Christians and our faith?

          • Daniel B.

            I don’t consider my actions even a little hostile. If you do, you may want to work on not being offended so easily.

            My original intention on this site was to read the article we’re commenting about but I got hooked on the comments section of the website. My new intention is to try to understand why people can rationalize shutting down and silencing an entire honest hard working good portion of American society (us atheists) simply because there is a disagreement on theology. Unfortunately I’m having trouble getting information from you. I really would like to know why you believe some people don’t deserve to have an opinion though.

          • James Grimes

            I’m on this site to converse with and discuss topics of importance to Christians. I am not here to debate atheists. I have no problem answering legitimate questions from them, but have no interest in their opinions. I am a dedicated student of God’s Word and am active in ministry. There is nothing an atheist can tell me about the Bible.

            You can perceive this as being close – minded and I would not find that offensive, because with God’s Word, all the answers I need are there.

            If you want to learn more about Scripture, I am able and willing to teach you.

          • Daniel B.

            I can assure you, I’m not an atheist because of my opinion. You continue to say you’re not interested in debating atheists but you’ll continue a conversation like this one as log as an atheist would like for some reason. If it’s not a debate you’re looking for, is it a severe case of getting in the last word? Just curious.

          • James Grimes

            We can end the discussion now if you are unsure of my motives in having this discussion. Remember, you had initiated this.

          • Daniel B.

            It is not my intention to end the discussion.

            I have a question. Are atheists allowed to ask Christians questions about their religion?

          • James Grimes

            I don’t believe that any believer would object to a legitimate question, but I would wonder why any Atheist here would want to ask a question about something they vehemently despise.

          • mrmike

            atheists dont despise your religion. They think its silly and made up. If I told you I was talking to the creator of the universe, wouldn’t you have some questions for me?

          • Rob McClain

            There is plenty we can tell you about the Bible Mr Grimes including the fact that not one of 126 historians from Jesus’ era ever heard of him or anything about him. Even your precious Josephus was determined to be a forgery.

          • James Grimes

            Proverbs 26:4 tells me all I need to know about you.

          • Rob McClain

            You believe that quoting scripture at people is some kind of garlic for vampires when it concerns an argument based on researched historical fact?

            To paraphrase Robert Ingersoll from the 19th century, sir, there must be a sign on your head that says “space for rent”. There is no folly to be found on this thread except in the minds of Christians with contempt for this world and wishing it would end, while praying for the next one to come. It is beyond pathetic when people go through their lives committing the heresy, yes the heresy of turning their backs on their own intelligence and wishing and praying for a thing that has never once been proven to exist.

            People like me don’t really care how long you want to wear your knees out talking to yourself, but let me be clear we will fight you whenever it comes to keeping your God bothering nonsense out of the public schools. You are pariahs of the worst kind when it comes to the minds of children and every kid I seen ruined by Sunday School is another kid with years of nonsense to overcome in terms of seeing the world as it really is.

          • James Grimes

            Sir Mockingbird, you are the fool in Proverbs 26:4. Your rant was very entertaining.

    • Ken Con Reeves

      I don’t have any pull or special friends but let’s see if we can get a science teacher in the church to teach about science.

    • brbr2424

      I’m glad you recognize that this issue came to light because a parent in the school objected to this egregious constitutional violation. The FFRF only steps in when they get a report for a parent. The school has shown that they don’t care whether they violate the constitution and the rights of the students. Going to them would be futile and would open the parent up to death threats and ostracism.

      • James Grimes

        I’m not interested in Atheists’ opinions.

  • thew_nyc

    if the classes are optional, it doesn’t bother me so much, although i wish they would also have optional classes on judaism, buddhism, humanism, and pastafarianism

    • James Grimes

      If enough parents request those classes, they should be offered.

      • John O’Brien

        If just one parent asks they should do the class. If you allow one you must allow them all.

        • MC

          No problem. 1 class for Christians, 1 class for Muslims, 1 for Jews, etc. Do you have a problem with that?

          • Jeffrey Missal

            There are more than three religions in the world.

          • MC

            Did you not notice the “etc.”, in my post?

          • morgan

            One class “comparative religions” will suffice just nicely.

          • MC

            Nope. Remember this is not a required class, it’s an optional Christian Bible study, NOT a class on comparative religions.

  • MickeyC

    I agree that the classes should be optional and that the other great religions of the world be taught as well.

  • Charles Montgomery

    I stopped reading when I read the word optional. So atheist should shut the heck up its optional. If their Godless heathen kids don’t have to read it? Then shut up. Last time I checked this was a free country. Its funny to me there is freedom of religion to everyone but the Christians.

    • James Grimes

      Charles, the look to be offended. When a certain group of people have been dismissed as useless, they have to make some noise to justify their existence.

      What they don’t understand is that we have absolutely no tolerance for their presence on this site.

      • NoGod4U

        “no tolerance for their presence on this site.”… right because it’s a group think tank where believers share confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance tips and delusional persecution stories… oh and of course a little slander directed toward the “Godless heathens” for good measure to show God’s love.

    • NoGod4U

      Religious freedom does not equal religious privilege… get over it or convert to Islam because there are many religious states for you to choose from where you can express your freedom/privilege if that’s what you’re truly looking for. The freedom of religion in America in fact depends upon the denial of religious privilege that your complaining about here.

  • Joe Pelletier

    I wonder if they would strenuously object to the Quran being an optional course?

    I have my doubts.

    • NoGod4U

      And I wonder to whom this question is addressed? If your claims is a play at the ridiculous notion of Christian persecution let me help you out… NO religion should be taught in school, does that help your “doubts?”

      • Joe Pelletier

        Dan Barker and his fellow Atheists.

        The Constitution does not prohibit religion from being taught in schools. It protects from one religion being established as the state religion. Unfortunately that does not hold up to reality as the religion of Secular Humanism/Atheism has become the dominant religion in public schools with its enforcement of the unproven science and lies of Darwinian Evolution, Homosexuality, Big Bang Theory and global warming/climate change.

        If you want to ban all religion in public schools then submit a bill for law, but you must also remove the religion of Secular Humanism/Atheism from public schools as well.

        By God’s grace I hope to not send any of my children to the current abomination and corruption that is the public school system.

        • NoGod4U

          I wonder what you think of intelligent Christians who recognize your diatribe for the hoooey that it is? Or are they not “true” Christians if they accept the “Lies of Evolution” or the reality of global warming/climate change?

          • Joe Pelletier

            Belief in Evolution or global warming is not a qualifier for what a Christian is. However Evolution is not based in any truth whatsoever, as there is absolutely no evidence for it. Also, evolution is a direct contradiction to Biblical truth that God designed and created all things perfect. So if someone claims to believe in Evolution, and it is a belief system, and to be a Christian, they walking in contradiction to God’s truth.

          • NoGod4U

            “Evolution is not based in any truth whatsoever…” – Question Joe, for all your animosity towards public education, are you yourself a product of the American Public School system?

          • Joe Pelletier

            Not entirely, no. But the public schools I did attend were drastically different from the post modern politically correct nonsense that is promoted today in many public schools.

            Because I disagree with teaching of lies, that is “animosity”?

          • NoGod4U

            No… my characterization of “animosity” was in regard to your reference of “the current abomination and corruption that is the public school system.”… your disagreement with proper education that you call “lies” I would label as ignorance… since you asked.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

    Public schools were created for a Protestant education, hence special schools such as Catholic schools popped up. If you don’t like it, create your own gosh darn school and get your doggone beliefs (evolution is a belief system- NOT science!) out of our textbooks!! I’m sick of my tax dollars paying for your ancestor monkey worship religion!

    • Jeffrey Missal

      Do you think the Earth is only 5000 years old as well?

      • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

        I’m certain you have a problem with that. O NOES WHATEVER SHALL I DO?! Somebody on the interwebz wants me to deny the Bible and instead worship some slime and say it’s my ancestor! Hey pal, if you want to say you come from pond scum- have at it! But as for me, I am carefully and wonderfully made…just as my Maker said.

        • Jeffrey Missal

          Your own bible states that, no matter how “carefully and wonderfully” you were made, your god made you from dirt.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            So you agree that He made me then? Thus He exists. Therefore, you deny the Creator even as your own words indicate you know He exists. However, because you’d much rather pursue your own vain lusts rather than Eternal Truth, you’ve chosen to worship the creature rather than the Creator. Good luck with that.

          • morgan

            Ms. Forbes,
            How do you discern that Mr. Missal has “vain lusts” and “worship(s) the creature.”(whatever that means).
            If you believe your position is true, why the demonization?
            It only undermines what you are trying to convey.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            So I take it you agree with Mr. Missal’s opinion then?

        • morgan

          Dear Ms. Forbes,
          I suggest you read some literature on the evolutionary sciences.
          Not for you to change your mind, but rather to get a better grasp of the terminology and the issue of Evolutionary Theory.
          As a person who prefers Science over supernaturalism, I still read books on supernaturalism. Knowledge never stops unless you want it to stop.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            Yes let’s talk about science which is my favorite subject. I’m sure you’re familiar with the proven that abiogenesis is impossible- life cannot come from non-life. Also according to the second law of thermodynamics entropy is inevitable- thus the universe is only getting more disorderly. Also according to the scientific method one must be able to observe, test, and repeat a theory in order to prove it to be true. The “big bang”, evolution of animals (as in one kind becoming another kind), has not been observed, tested, or repeated. Thus according to the scientific method and according to the proven scientific laws your beliefs about evolution are just that…BELIEFS. No different than my belief in a Creator…except my belief fits in better with all of the natural laws and sciences. *DROPS MIC.*

          • SashaC

            This is one of the most mortifying things I’ve ever read here. I’ve never cringed so hard. This is a perfect example of pigeon chess…

            Arguing evolution with a religious person is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how soundly they are beat, the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, strut around victoriously and return to the flock to claim victory.

            Btw, if you know so much about science, you would understand the scientific meaning of the word “theory,” as in the Theory of Evolution, or the Theory of Gravity. Look it up. Just because something is your favorite subject, doesn’t mean you didn’t fail the class miserably.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            Gravity isn’t a theory it’s a law. Look it up.

          • SashaC

            *sigh*

            I know this is a waste of time, but let me explain this to you, as simply as I can. Scientific theories do not become “promoted” to laws. They are two different things. In fact, if there was a scientific hierarchy, theories would actually be higher than laws. A scientific law describes things, while theories explain them. The law of gravity describes gravity. Newton’s theory of gravity described why gravity occurs. But Einstein’s theory of relativity explains it even better. That’s the thing about scientific theories, they can be improved upon, as we learn more. Theories never go away, because they are completely separate from laws.

            Please educate yourself. I know you think you look smart, and maybe you do to some of the people here who dont have a grasp on science any better than you do. But you look foolish to anyone who actually knows anything.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            1. Gravity isn’t a theory, it’s a law. Look it up. And while you’re looking, check out the man who discovered, tested, and proved that law…Sir Isaac Newton…A Christian.
            2. Your appeal to the absurd fallacy doesn’t apply here. We’re not talking about pigeons dear, we’re talking about science.
            3. Obviously you have nothing of substance to add, thus you also include an adhomonim attack. Are you going to throw in a “yo momma” joke as well?

          • SashaC

            See my response to your original post, below.

            It’s ad hominem, not adhomonim. And I assume you are referring to appeal to ridicule, in your second “point?” I suggest you reread your comments regarding ancestor monkey worship, slime and pond scum. Pot, meet kettle. Don’t dish it if you can’t take it, “dear.” I call it like I see it and I see a whole lot of ignorance unsuccessfully doing it’s best impersonation of intelligence. Perfect example of why kids should be focusing on real learning, instead of religion, when in school.

          • Evolution is a fact

            MISCONCEPTION: If evidence supports a hypothesis, it is upgraded to a theory. If the theory then garners even more support, it may be upgraded to a law.

            CORRECTION: This misconception may be reinforced by introductory science courses that treat hypotheses as “things we’re not sure about yet” and that only explore established and accepted theories. In fact, hypotheses, theories, and laws are rather like apples, oranges, and kumquats: one cannot grow into another, no matter how much fertilizer and water are offered. Hypotheses, theories, and laws are all scientific explanations that differ in breadth — not in level of support. Hypotheses are explanations that are limited in scope, applying to fairly narrow range of phenomena. The term law is sometimes used to refer to an idea about how observable phenomena are related — but the term is also used in other ways within science. Theories are deep explanations that apply to a broad range of phenomena and that may integrate many hypotheses and laws.

            Source: http://undsci.berkeley.edu/teaching/misconceptions.php#b12

          • SashaC

            You may as well be writing this in Mandarin Chinese. I explained it as simply as humanly possible and she never responded. Her tiny little mind probably exploded. This was actually my favorite “discussion” of the past few days. So amusing! When she went off on that awful, inaccurate diatribe where she claimed science was her favorite subject and ended with, “DROPS THE MIC.” I literally cringed, lmao!

          • Evolution is a fact

            I know, I know, but gotta keep trying. It’s not easy though. And yes, that “DROPS MIC” was hilarious!

          • SashaC

            I hear you! Some days, like today, I feel a little more serious and tend to take part in real discussions with the Christians. But days like yesterday are the most fun. I love the sarcasm and snark, I openly admit!

          • Evolution is a fact

            The sarcasm and snark is fun and quite necessary. You have to laugh at this stuff sometimes, just to keep from crying.

          • SashaC

            Truer words have never been spoken!

    • morgan

      Wow, if you’re an example of a Christian, I will make sure my children read this.
      But you are right. Religion divides people…that’s why they each need their own school.

  • Jeffrey Missal

    Is it a government (public) school?

    OK then.

    Either give all religions equal footing in government schools, or keep all religions from establishing a footing in government schools. You’re choice.

    • MC

      I have no problem with public schools having optional religious classes for all religions, if that’s what the parents want. 1 for Christians, 1 for Jews, 1 for Muslims, etc. Do you have a problem with that?

      • Jeffrey Missal

        Not at all; however, you’re missing a WHOLE lot of other religious practices there….christianity, jewdaism and islam are but three religions…there are some 4200 religions across the globe (adherents.com).

        • MC

          I have no problem with any of that. As long as Christians are allowed to have a Bible class. Muslims are already getting prayer rooms to pray during class in at public schools in America, so we Christians want our prayer rooms too. Awesome!

          • Jeffrey Missal

            This is my point….we are going to go broke cow-towing to all the various religions who want “theirs”.

            Wouldn’t it make more sense to spend that money on actual education rather than something that should be taught at home or at religious events?

            For THIS reason, I don’t support religion in government schools….we simply cannot afford it. Its bad enough that we have so many different languages in school. In our district alone, there are 420 different native language-speakers. Do we really and truly want to add religion to this mess as well?

          • MC

            Doesn’t matter if you don’t want it, that’s irrelevant. The Muslims get it so we ARE going to get what we want. Christian parents want it, and the kids want it. It could be blended in with spelling classes too so they can learn the Bible while they learn to read and write. It’s a win win situation.

          • Jeffrey Missal

            You didn’t answer my question so let me rephrase.

            What business does religion, ANY religion, have in a government school?

            Listen to yourself…”we ARE going to get what we want”. Do we really want to make our schools a religious battlefield and put our children in the middle?

            I’m homeschooling my kids…between this, common core, and a several other issues, its simply not worth it.

          • MC

            Religion used to be taught in public schools so it has “business” being there. And nobody died because they were taught religion in school in the past and no one will in the future. And there won’t be a “religious battlefield”, kids will go to the optional classes they like, no battle. And yes, we ARE going to get what we want because Muslim kids already get it and I don’t hear a peep out of the coward atheists about it, but when Christians want something the coward atheists go crybaby wild and poop in their diapers.

          • morgan

            MC,
            Please sate my ignorance. Where in this country is there an “Islamic Studies” or “Koranic Studies” in a public school in the US?
            Michigan, perhaps?

          • NoGod4U

            Here’s where your Christian teachings fit into a school curriculum along with every other religion… ONE class called mythology.

          • SashaC

            Where exactly is Islam being taught in schools? If that were the case, people like you would make sure it was common knowledge. In fact, we’d never hear the end of it. You’d be losing your minds.

            Regardless of the past, religion has no place in public schools. Schools were also segregated at one time. It’s called progress and it happens whether you like it or not.

            If you honestly believe that Christianity, or any other religion, is going to start being taught in schools, you are delusional. This country is becoming more secular every day and moving further from your archaic beliefs. Your name calling and unfounded insistence that you will get your way reek of desperation, which leads me to believe that deep down you know you’re not actually going to get what you want. Even if you don’t realize it, it doesn’t matter. It’s not happening.

          • MC

            Try reading my posts again, but this time for comprehension. I said Muslim kids are being supplied prayer rooms for Muslim kids to pray during class in PUBLIC school. And I hate to break the news to you, maybe you’re obtuse, but Christianity is being taught in public schools across our nation everyday. Through Christian clubs and on campus Bible groups. And it’s all perfectly legal and the rights of the students a cross America. And it’s not unfounded, it’s simply stating the facts, militant atheists are crybaby cowards. Just a fact.

          • SashaC

            Talk about being obtuse. Where are Muslim kids being supplied prayer rooms?

            Christianity is not being taught in public schools, in general. Student led after school clubs and bible groups are not the same as teacher led curriculum. In the instances where the line is being crossed, the FFRF is successfully taking the schools to task, and will continue to do so. That’s kinda the point of this entire article you’re commenting on. If that wasn’t the case, you’d have no reason to be as upset as you are.

            I seem to have to say this a lot here, but you really need to look up the definition of the word “fact” as opposed to “opinion.” Not knowing the difference is a fatal to your credibility.

          • MC

            “Talk about being obtuse. Where are Muslim kids being supplied prayer rooms?”

            Yes, you are obtuse, it’s happening in Arizona.

            Tuscon School Accommodating Islamic Prayers

            http://buzzpo.com/tuscon-school-accommodating-islamic-prayers/

            “Television station KVOA reports that Muslims attending Desert View High School have been given access to a room to conduct their prayers during class.

            School officials say everything is by the book. That may be the case but do they provide private accommodations for the Catholics to pray? or the Pentecostals?”

            http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/todds-commentaries/arizonaschoolprovidesroom.html

            It’s also happening in Maryland.

            “Maryland school allows Muslim students to leave class to pray”

            http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/31/16791998-maryland-school-allows-muslim-students-to-leave-class-to-pray?lite

            It’s happening in Chicago.

            ‘Von Steuben High School in Chicago has set aside a place for Muslim students to observe one of their five daily prayers’

            So, since you atheists are always dying about if you let one group then you must let all groups do it, we Christians want and deserve it too.

            “Student led after school clubs and bible groups are not the same as teacher led curriculum.”

            Yes, it’s student run clubs and it’s during school time not after school. I know, I was vice president of one many years ago in high school.

            “ In the instances where the line is being crossed, the FFRF is successfully taking the schools to task, and will continue to do so.”

            And usually the line hasn’t been crossed.

          • SashaC

            I don’t have time to give this the full response it deserves, but here is the short version.
            Do you really not understand the difference between the articles you cited and the one above? Those are all private, student led prayer sessions, not teacher led classes, which is the issue in the article we are commenting on. If Christians in those schools wanted time to pray, I’m sure it would be granted. But segregated religious classes like you mentioned earlier, or prayer led by teachers, will never be allowed.

          • MC

            “Talk about being obtuse. Where are Muslim kids being supplied prayer rooms?”

            Yes, you are obtuse, it’s happening in Arizona.

            Tuscon School Accommodating Islamic Prayers

            http://buzzpo.com/tuscon-schoo

            “Television station KVOA reports that Muslims attending Desert View High School have been given access to a room to conduct their prayers during class.

            School officials say everything is by the book. That may be the case but do they provide private accommodations for the Catholics to pray? or the Pentecostals?”

            http://radio.foxnews.com/todds

            It’s also happening in Maryland.

            “Maryland school allows Muslim students to leave class to pray”

            http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new

            It’s happening in Chicago.

            ‘Von Steuben High School in Chicago has set aside a place for Muslim students to observe one of their five daily prayers’

            So, since you atheists are always whining and wetting themselves about if you let one group then you must let all groups do it, we Christians want and deserve it too.

            “Student led after school clubs and bible groups are not the same as teacher led curriculum.”

            Yes, it’s student run clubs and it’s during school time not after school. I know, I was vice president of one many years ago in high school.

            “ In the instances where the line is being crossed, the FFRF is successfully taking the schools to task, and will continue to do so.”

            And usually the line hasn’t been crossed.

          • morgan

            “Muslim kids are being supplied prayer rooms for Muslim kids to pray during class in PUBLIC school.”
            Please provide evidence to back up this statement.
            Thank you

          • MC

            Ok.

            Tuscon School Accommodating Islamic Prayers

            http://buzzpo.com/tuscon-schoo

            “Television station KVOA reports that Muslims attending Desert View High School have been given access to a room to conduct their prayers during class.

            School officials say everything is by the book. That may be the case but do they provide private accommodations for the Catholics to pray? or the Pentecostals?”

            http://radio.foxnews.com/todds

            It’s also happening in Maryland.

            “Maryland school allows Muslim students to leave class to pray”

            http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_new

            It’s happening in Chicago.

            ‘Von Steuben High School in Chicago has set aside a place for Muslim students to observe one of their five daily prayers’

          • bigpawn01

            lmao you mention fox’s todd starnes and all claims instantly lost any creditably. he is a well known and well documented liar.

          • MC

            I guess you doing any kind off research and fact checking is above your intellectual ability. Stop embarrassing yourself, little man.

          • bigpawn01

            mc my ole buddy you dont have to go far to find out about how reliable and honest todd starnes is. his lies are well documented and out for the public’s inspection feel free to google it. but if you want me to do the heavy lifting to you, you are wasting you time.

          • brbr2424

            These Christian clubs have to be student led. If you go by student led clubs you can also say that gay straight alliance is taught as well as Lego Robotics.

          • MC

            I know they have to be student led, I used to Vice President of one many years ago.

          • bigpawn01

            id love to meet you in person and show you just how much of a coward i am

          • MC

            Anyone who pretends to be tough on the Internet is a coward. Now turn off your computer and go to sleep, little man.

          • bigpawn01

            sir that is the thing i dont have to be tuff to better the likes of you. why don’t you come turn my computer off and we will see who go’s to sleep. stupid people make me angry some times and feel i good stiff punch in the face may help them if not it certainly will make me feel better.

          • MC

            Stupid people make you angry? Then you must really hate yourself, and your low self-esteem is duly noted Francine. Now go and turn off mommies computer, little Internet tough guy wannabe and eat another Twinkie, you couldn’t fight your way out of a wet paper bag.

          • MC

            Stupid people make you angry? Then you must really hate yourself, and your low self-esteem is duly noted, Francine. Now go and turn off mommies computer, little Internet tough guy wannabe and eat another Twinkie, you couldn’t punch your way out of a wet paper bag.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao mc you are some thing else my friend.

          • MC

            It’s “something” NOT, “some thing”. Geez, basic English grammar 101.

          • bigpawn01

            easy hot rod you understood what i said and that’s all that matters if you are so good at grammar do the world a favor and become an English teacher but other wise just stfu

          • brbr2424

            MC, you seem to think it is not a big deal that the Christian religion is taught in public school. If it’s not a big deal – don’t do it. The standard isn’t whether anyone died. The standard is the US Constitution and what makes our form of government better than a theocracy. We can also deny people their freedom of speech while also not killing them. Then the claim can be made that they did not die.

          • bigpawn01

            muslim got nothing and your claims other wise are made from bigotry and hatred.

          • Rose

            America was based on Christian values, on the bible. Anybody who has been to Washington D.C. knows that; there’s proof everywhere there. These values are why people moved to America. The history of America’s belief system ties in to religion and in this case, the bible.

          • morgan

            Rose, Washington DC is hardly the place to go looking for Christian values. DC is a cesspool of greed and avarice – unless you consider those as values.

          • Rose

            But there are so many relics that show that Christianity is here. I’m not talking about the people there, but the place that they’re in. They’ve created a BIBLE MUSEUM there. I don’t know much about bible museums, but this is the only one I’ve seen. There are statues everywhere!

          • brbr2424

            Saying it doesn’t make it so. Some Christian values are just common sense. Others like stoning people for working on Saturday are not common sense and were not a consideration in the founding of the country. I’ll take humanist values over Christian values any day.

          • Rose

            Just to clear this up, stoning people was law back in the day, a form of punishment in the Old Testament. We don’t stone others nowadays. And yes, some Christian values are common sense, but that doesn’t change the fact that the people who came to America believed in Jesus Christ.

          • supup

            “We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt.” James Madison

            “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[3]”

            John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli – 1797

            “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[20]” Thomas Jefferson – 1802

          • morgan

            “Christian parents want it.” Again.
            Why do you want the State to teach religion? What happened to The Home, or the Church?

          • brbr2424

            Where is it that the Muslims are getting it? Is this happening in US public schools? Wouldn’t the world be a better place if there was a separation of church and state in Syria and Iran? Isn’t our system superior to theirs? Do you really think we should be copying their theocratic system of government?

          • MC

            Yes, it’s happening in a few public schools, and more to come. And no, no Christian wants a theocracy.

          • bigpawn01

            not one public school and you are a damn liar to say other wise. and if there ever is a case of it be sure the fact they are muslim will not stop us from stepping in on the matter.

          • MC

            You really are a mental midget, little man. LOL!

          • bigpawn01

            lmao coming from you insults toward my intelligence carry no weight. and what is the little man part about ?is it suppose to prod me into a childish reaction or is that how you face every thing you fear to comfort yourself?

          • MC

            Nice try little man, but I fear no man.

          • bigpawn01

            you what?? i dont either. “little man”

          • morgan

            I am with you 100% Mr. Missal.

          • morgan

            Christians are allowed bible classes. They are called CHURCHES.
            Doesn’t anyone go anymore?

          • MC

            Bible study doesn’t stop at the Church or at home, students study the Bible at public school too during recess.

          • brbr2424

            And, they are free to read their bibles during recess. Nobody is saying they can’t. Don’t be surprised if they would rather trade Pokeman or Magic cards.

        • brbr2424

          What MC is suggesting is a problem. That is basically what these Southern schools do. Since most or all of the students tend to be fundamentalist Christians, they see no harm and no foul in promoting Christianity in public schools.

      • morgan

        Yes, I do. There should be one class with “comparative religons.”
        Not “one for each group.” Children should learn about ALL religions, not just one. They can learn their “one” religion at home or at church, unless both of those locations are complete failures.

        • MC

          It really doesn’t matter what you want, that’s irrelevant. This is about an optional Christian Bible study, NOT a class about world religions.

          • morgan

            I was ‘suggesting’ as part of a discussion. It’s not about “what I want.” (“it really doesn’t matter what you want….” Thank you, MC for letting me know my opinions are irrelevant. – I see this is a commonly used christian ‘tool.”)
            Again, why do you want the STATE to do what apparently churches and parents have failed to do?

          • MC

            Why would a religious person care about what non-believers opinions are? What would the benefit for the believer be, what relevance is there for the believer?

          • Evolution is a fact

            Truth?

      • brbr2424

        Yes, that is a huge problem with that. It is unconstitutional. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_v._Board_of_Education

        Students can bring their own bibles into school and read during lunch or recess, in the can or any other free reading time. Christianity can also be taught in a comparative religion class. There is no better way to turn someone into an atheist then to study comparative religion, so I doubt Christians would want that.

  • CharlieWarlie

    I think children should be taught the Bible as early as possible ,but not in an elementary school setting.

    • morgan

      Perhaps at home? Apparently these parents want the STATE to do it.

  • alnga

    the Opt out covers all the grounds that makes this perfectly legal. If offered as a elective it is by permission only granted by parent or guardian. The godless activity has it’s roots solidly planted in the banishment of God from the public square and the results are the unheard of ever before crime rates everywhere. When you have no reference to the God of Abraham and the final Justice that you will see in eternity then you pay the price of Children to adults with no moral compass to guide you.

    • morgan

      Dear alnga,
      Your assumptions and conclusions are roundly false, but that’s not my question.
      My question is this:
      Why do you want the STATE to do what churches and parents are supposed to do?
      Have the churches failed so miserably that you want bureacrats to take over?
      Are these children’s parents so woefully ignorant of their own faith that they want the STATE to take over?
      I’m curious.

    • Bolvon72

      Afraid not, the tax dollars of many non-christians go to providing that school, therefore it should not be involved in any teaching of one particular religion, opt out, opt in, or even after school.

  • William T. Robbins

    Will they be teaching an optional classe that the Bible is false? They could point out the contradictions and really barbaric thing that are in there. They could also read Hitchens and Dawkins etc

    • Reason2012

      Science proves time and again the Bible is accurate. Secondly, what barbaric things? Judgment against nations that refused to repent? Or are you instead referring to 55 MILLION sons/daughters slaughtered by their own parents in the past few decades and calling that good, renaming it “abortion”?

      Our hypocrisy when we reject God is astounding and we prove we deserve exactly what we have coming.

      • William T. Robbins

        Red Herring, you can’t argue the bible isn’t barbaric because you find other things barbaric. And science has never “proved the Bible true” even once, let alone time and time again.

        • Reason2012

          Hello. No, I’m arguing the Bible is not barbaric because what’s really happening is nations are being judged by their barbarism that they had decades if not centuries to repent from and would not.

          Secondly I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of those who still try to pretend it’s barbarism while conveniently ignoring that they are in the midst of calling the slaughter of 55 MILLION sons and daughters by their own parents in the last few decades alone good – and these sons and daughters never did a thing. Huge difference.

          And yes, science proves time and again the Bible is accurate. In fact, there are many scientific facts in the Bible that science did not discover until even thousands of years later – discovered when technically speaking it was impossible for men to figure it out – yet there it is in the Bible, which is more proof there’s far more to the Bible than just another “man-made book”.

          http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtool/scientificfactsintheBible.shtml

          1 Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

          2 Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

          At a time when it was believed that the earth sat? on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

          3 Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

          4 The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”

          5 Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”

          6 Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

          7 “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.” (11:3 continued)

          8 At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

          9 The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world

          10 God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia).

          There’s many more than this. We will be without excuse when we face God – forgiveness is available now, but will not be when it’s too late. You do realize the devil would do all he can to deceive as many as he can, do you not? Jesus spent more time warning about avoiding hell than about gaining heaven. Please think on these things.

          Luke 12:4-5 “[Jesus said] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. “

          Please think again.

          • William T. Robbins

            This is far too much absurdity to respond to in a single post. You have given me a great counter-apologetic for my show. Here are some quick answers.

            1. The bible does say anything about atoms and the theory of atoms isn’t recent.

            more details and the rest on Bar Room Atheist.

          • Reason2012

            There is nothing to counter – the Bible shows things that scientists didn’t figure out for hundreds and even thousands of years, things that there’s no way anyone could have figured out at the time of writing, yet there it is.. We can fabricate whatever reasons we wish to reject it, but it’s just one more reason of many why we will ALL be without excuse when we face God. Choose wisely.

          • William T. Robbins

            Well you claim about atoms was wrong. The bible doesn’t say atoms and the first theory of them wasn’t recent. The first theory that actually describes atoms was in 442 BC.

          • Reason2012

            I never said it said Atoms. It says it’s made of things which do not appear and was written far earlier than 442 BC. Please cite that first theory from 442 BC anyway.

          • William T. Robbins

            You said it meant atoms. Your interpretation of a very vague statement. I’ll be sure to cite everything when I refute each of these ridiculous claims. Probably be about two weeks.

          • Reason2012

            So you came up with the number but cannot cite a source, which is why I called you on it.

            Secondly, doesn’t matter what you want to call it – the fact is the Bible points out many things science could not figure out for hundreds and thousands of years – things these “bronze age goat herders” as some are prone to say, couldn’t possibly figured out, let alone anyone.

            Please think again – we’re being deceived and will have no excuse when we face God.

          • William T. Robbins

            I can in fact cite sources and had told you that I will. You called me on nothing. If you cared what was true you could have googled it and confirmed the date in seconds. Also none of your arguments present anything that people of the time would require divine knowledge to figure out. To confirm perhaps but not hypothesize. And you ignore where it is clearly wrong. You cite Job while ignoring all the claims in Job that are just wrong. The earth has no pillars, snow and hail don’t come from a storehouse, your lightning example is completely flawed as radio wave may travel at light speed but lightning which is what the verse is talking about doesn’t. Not even close. I said I will respond on the show and I will. But go ahead and ignore it if you don’t care what is actually true.

          • Reason2012

            If you had that number handy, you should have a source. Did you have that exact date memorized of when “the first theory that talks about atoms” just in case someone brought up when atoms were first talked about?! Yet suddenly you can’t back it up at all – it’s easy to look up a date, yet you cannot, because guess what: no such date shows up in searches. So let’s chalk it up to you making a bad judgment call of fabricating such a date in the heat of the moment.

            Feel free to prove how things they talked about that scientists could not figure out until hundred and thousands if years later were known by these “bronze age goat herders” – how is it these “bronze age herders” were thousands of years ahead of our brilliant “scientists”. Even the washing for microbes is beyond anything they could have possibly figured out when thousands of years later newborns are dying left and right while the medical community is just flat out clueless about it.

            You can’t even cite your source for your number that I suppose you just happen to have memorized but have no clue where the date came from, just in case someone brings up the topic of atoms and when such knowledge first began.

            Your action (or lack of it) contradicts your words. I’ll go by your action of being unable to cite a resource.

            We will be without excuse when we face God – it won’t work to say “well how was I supposed to know” when the fact is “bronze age goat herders” proved to be geniuses compared to our scientists, thousands of years ahead of their time We are, myself included, without excuse.

          • William T. Robbins
          • Reason2012

            I only see a claim of scientific miracles – not details.

            I provided you many examples and you cannot refute any of them.

          • http://www.miketheinfidel.com/ MikeTheInfidel

            “I only see a claim of scientific miracles – not details.”

            Because you don’t know how to click a link, I guess?

          • William T. Robbins

            Hey the refutation is up. Hope you enjoy it!

          • bigpawn01

            it is the internet man go to google type the crap in and you get results dont ignore results just because they dont support your beliefs you will never be smart if all you accept is what you already think you know.

          • Reason2012

            So in other words your claims are “out there” yet they can’t be found.

          • William T. Robbins

            No. I can cite a source. The person you are looking for is http://www.egs.edu/library/democritus/biography/

            So why don’t we just put this down to you don’t know what you are talking about and made a hasty judgment?

            I said I will refute them all on my show and I will. You’ll have to tune in to find out more. It is oblivious from the fact you didn’t know about Democritus, you haven’t fact checked any of those claims.

          • Reason2012

            Nowhere does it say “The first theory that actually describes atoms was in 442 BC.” Did you pull that date out of thin air? Even his birth date is an “estimate”. You want to call that “fact checking”? The “fact” is that date 442 is not even mentioned.

            Secondly the Bible still had it written earlier than that – pretty impressive for, as they are typically called “bronze age goat herders”.

            Third, you can only claim you’ll refute them but there are many, many more facts still waiting untouched – things that it’s not possible for humans to have known at the time. Amazing those “bronze age goat herders” were smarter than all medical doctors in the world in 1845.

            We are without excuse. I would think again.

          • William T. Robbins

            I do claim I will refute them. The first half go on Sunday’s episode. You should listen it’s going to be a blast.

          • Reason2012

            Post the refutations here so they can be refuted, rather than in a venue where they cannot be challenged.

          • William T. Robbins

            Well you are welcome to listen to the show and we do a live call in for feedback on Wednesday nights. Also you can write-in your challenges if you prefer.

          • Reason2012

            Thank you for proving it’s all about you controlllng the message to keep others blind to the truth. You are afraid to post them in a public venue where you cannot control the responses. You cannot refute them but will instead distort and control the message. I rest my case. That’s your first hint that you do not really have a valid message – you’re only deceiving yourself, William.

          • William T. Robbins

            Like your original claims, that response lacks facts. As I said there are many ways you can respond, other than the live call in I control none of them. You can even post your responses here I really don’t care. Being told I am deceiving myself by someone who has convinced them self that Job describes the earth’s “free float” in space doesn’t impress me. Here is a preview, even if it described that, which it doesn’t, the earth is not floating free. It is in orbit, it doesn’t hang on nothing any more than any other falling object. You are deceiving yourself, you don’t understand science.

          • Reason2012

            You claim it lacks facts, yet you can’t touch it. Prove it lacks fact. You can’t. Respond here so everyone can see it. You won’t. End of story. Feel free to present your version of what I said, your response, with no chance of me to rebuttal if that makes you feel like you’ve refuted it.

            The Earth is free-floating in space, just like any other object in space, whether currently under the affects of gravity or not. He knew that fact thousands of years earlier than those who reject God figured it out.

            Sorry facts are not facts b/c they “impress” you. If that’s your version of science, then it’s you who does no understand science. That you run from dealing with these facts in a forum where I can refute your claims immediately says it all. Take care.

          • bigpawn01

            pay for your education it is not our job to give you lessons in the basics of knowledge. your parents did a piss poor job making sure you got a good education and were ready to face the world.

          • Reason2012

            So in other words you cannot post any refutations. Your ad hominem attacks only prove you do not have a point.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao they did not even know the earth was round and nothing they said says they had any better understanding of the world or science get over it.

          • Reason2012

            Sure they did – they knew the Earth was suspended upon nothing and they called it the “circle” of the Earth, which a sphere is circular.

          • bigpawn01

            i applaud you i have no patience when dealing with these idiots when they claim science support their religion.

          • bigpawn01

            try doing some research your self hot shot you got the internet just like we do it is not our obligation to provide you with an education that your parents failed miserably to see to it you got.

          • bigpawn01

            false and you are obviously delusional to make such a ridiculous claim.

          • supup

            Like what, for example?

          • Sweetredtele

            Retrofitting makes anything match to whatever.

          • bigpawn01

            lmao you guys always fail miserably when you try to marry religion to science. the bible is a work of fiction science is a fact they dont mix. Also 93% of the scientist in the national academy of science do not believe in god any claims other wise are false and why do you think so many of them dont claim there is a god?? because there is no evidence for a god any god.

          • Reason2012

            No, the problem is those who fail miserably when they call their own version of made up beliefs “science” – it’s not “science” that “nothing can give rise to the entire universe”.

            It’s not “science” that populations of fish can evolve over generations eventually into animals that we’d clearly no longer consider fish.

            It’s not “science” that bananas and human beings have the same great……….great grandparents.

            Meanwhile there are a great many scientific facts written of in the Bible that scientists did not figure out for hundreds and thousands of years – things these people couldn’t have possibly figured out.

            Might as well say a watch is not ‘evidence’ of intelligent design, or a computer along with the computer programs that are meaningfully decoded and acted upon. It’s God we’ll have to convince as it won’t work to say “well how was I supposed to know”. We will be without excuse.

            Thank you for posting.

          • bigpawn01

            wow your really out there aren’t ya bro? you are proof religion retards education.

        • bigpawn01

          never not once

      • Sweetredtele

        I’ll need scientific papers to back up your assertions.

        Half of all pregnancies miscarry. God aborts more children than anyone. Children under 5 die by the millions (6.3 million in 2013 alone). Two thirds of these deaths are preventable by humans, 100% are preventable by an omnipotent being. From this, God seems to hate children and loooooves killing them. What a horrible “plan”.

        Your hypocrisy of worshiping this mass murderer is astounding.

        • brbr2424

          Also ignoring the children who would not have been born if a woman had not terminated an earlier unwanted pregnancy. One in three women will have had an abortion. No doubt Reason2012 has a grandmother, daughters, sisters or friends who have terminated an unwanted pregnancy.

          • bigpawn01

            god has made it pretty clear he dont give a damn about children what is you problem with abortion? he flooded the earth did you think no babies were around for that? he killed the first born in Egypt no babies there? he ordered the jews to slay every man women animal and child on several occasions and there are many more stories that are just the same where do you get the idea god likes children?

      • DoctorDJ

        “Science proves time and again the Bible is accurate,”
        Ha.
        Ha ha.
        Ha ha Ha haHa ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha.

        Oh, and check out the facts. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm “Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted)
        spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among
        women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%.”

        God. The world’s most prolific abortionist.

    • William T. Robbins

      The response will be up Sunday. Bar Room Atheist Episode 39. Thanks for the material!

      • Sane Spirit

        Oh awesome Bill 🙂

  • NoGod4U

    If Christians want a class in schools… this is how it should run. A comparative religion class where Christianity is grouped with every other religion and presented as anthropological and social studies facts, not theology… and of course the class wouldn’t be complete without all the dead gods of Egypt and Greece as well and the roll they played in the development of the Abrahamic God. What say you Christians, since you want the Bible taught in school so badly.

    • Joe Pelletier

      If you believe that God was “developed” from Greek and Egyptian mythology, you know not God and you know not history and you know not the truth.

      • NoGod4U

        Book suggestion for you Joe… The Evolution of God by Robert Wright, probably not on your pastor’s “approved” reading list, but just in case you ever care to be daring and think for yourself, enjoy.

  • http://victimsofgaybullying.wordpress.com/ JBenning

    Strange how atheists don’t believe in God so what is their problem? Fact is, they KNOW there is a GOD and fear Him like you wouldn’t believe. Only one problem…they keep forgetting they will come face to face with the One they hate. Life won’t be very funny from then on. Oh well, they will learn….albeit it the hard way. I do feel sorry for them. Really I do. I hope someone can get inside their head and explain why they need Jesus in their life.

    • SashaC

      You threatening us with god is like a child threatening an adult that Santa won’t bring him any presents if he’s naughty. In reality, you’re projecting. You are the one that lives in fear that someone is watching your every move, judging all you do. For us being a good person is it’s own reward, rather than because of the fear of reprisal. I know that’s a foreign concept to you all. Just as you pity us, we pity you.

    • NoGod4U

      Do you fear Allah? According to your logic, the fact is you KNOW he is the only true GOD and Mohammad is his prophet and you fear Him like you wouldn’t believe…please think before you speak.

  • Reason2012

    Yet they will have no problem with homosexual activists in states where the state religion of homosexual marriage is established by law – blatant violation of the establishment clause of the Constitution – go into kindergarten classes and expose 5 year old kids to images and ideas of homosexuality. Parents are not told. Parents who find out are not allowed to opt their kids out of it. “Shut up – it’s legal now” is the response. Google homosexual kindergarten to see the growing list of cases.

    But meanwhile do not DARE let anyone OPTIONALLY learn about God / the Bible. What’s funny is, they are doing exactly what the Bible says they’ll do – they are proving the Bible right, which condemns them further.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

    Take heed, people – even Jesus warned where our reverence should be.

    Luke 12:4-5 “[Jesus said] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into_hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”

    • NoGod4U

      It wasn’t until 1967 that interracial couples were allowed to legally marry in southern states… replace your word “homosexual” and project your comments back to that time period and you will see your diatribe is but an echo.

      • Reason2012

        Hello. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you cannot have an interracial marriage. Secondly, people are born a skin color – adults continue to permanently turn away from homosexuality, even after decades of believing the lie they were “born that way”, proving it’s not genetic.

        Are you against three men being married? An adult marrying his mom? A man marrying a 17 year old? 16? 15? 14? In other words, there’s a thing called morals, as much as others want to pretend no such thing exists and everyone should just be able to do what’s right in their own eyes. Homosexual activists do that which they condemn others for doing (well that shouldn’t be a marriage, or that shouldn’t be a marriage) when it comes to the above list and more, which is inconsistent and exposes their hypocrisy.

        • NoGod4U

          Oh lovely…it’s so awesome to talk this thing called morals with a bible quoting Christian… when is it okay to slaughter a whole race of people in God’s name? 1 Samuel 15 And speaking of multiple partners in marriage, how many wives is enough for a man after God’s own heart? 2 Samuel 12 … as for your objection to the interracial marriage comparison you really need to get a clue if you don’t think the exact same arguments of religion and bible quotes that your using were not used (and continue to be used today) to rail against interracial marriage.

          • Reason2012

            You mean a nation that was given centuries to repent from their barbarism and did not? Judgment came home.

            Sin is in the Bible not to condone it, but to show the consequences.

            Notice how you avoided the question I posed like the plague. Are you against three men being married? An adult marrying his mom? A man marrying a 17 year old? 16? 15? 14? In other words, there’s a thing called morals, as much as others want to pretend no such thing exists and everyone should just be able to do what’s right in their own eyes. Homosexual activists do that which they condemn others for doing (well that shouldn’t be a marriage, or that shouldn’t be a marriage) when it comes to the above list and more, which is inconsistent and exposes their hypocrisy.

            And when is it ok to slaughter 55 MILLION sons/daughters at the hands of your own parents – that’s what those who dont REALLY believe in God call “moral” and rename it “abortion”. Your claim to be against slaughtering of innocents falls flat – the nations that were judged after centuries of refusing to turn away from their barbarism and genocide were finally judged. What did those 55 MILLION sons/daughters do? Not a thing.

          • NoGod4U

            You’ve used the word hypocrisy twice now… very apt word for your position when you attempt to justify your God of the actions of the very same actions of which you cry objection. I’ve avoided your questions like the plague? Interesting word to use there plague considering once again the example your bible provides of a God who purportedly hardens a Pharaohs heart so he can kill mass numbers of children in Egypt. But in regard to your question, I did address it… numbers in a relationship are numbers, your fascination with man on man is irrelevant, your bible codons and celebrates the subjugation of multiple women to be part of a mans harem of wives, not to mention concubines (have fun trying to justify concubines) As for the mom question (why is it in these discussions that conservatives seem to have a twisted fascination with sexual relations with family members and animals? ) but as far as family sex is concerned, again look at your bible where there are multiple examples of God ordained incest (daughters with dad) And your word hypocrisy applies equally to your numbers game of the unborn where you conveniently leave out the 25% of pregnancies (1 out of 4) that end in a miscarriage (God ordained abortion) or the 20,000 children who die every day of starvation and simple diseases.(that’s one ever 4 seconds) So how did you put your outrage of the death of these innocents… What did these sons/daughters do? Not a thing… so yes, your word hypocrisy is very fitting I would say.

          • Reason2012

            The Egyptians were throwing the newborn babies of the Isrealites into the river. They refused to repent. Judgment hit home. What did the 55 MILLION sons/daughters do, being slaughtered by their own parents in the name of “a woman’s right to choose”? Not a thing. Why the hypocrisy?

            No, the Bible does not show sin to condone it, but to show the consequences.

            What did those 55 MILLION sons/daughters do slaughtered by people who believe like you do? Not a thing. And a million more a year and counting added to the list. All in the name of “I dont REALLY believe in God”. Shows how we become barbaric monsters when we get away from the truth of God and even pretend it’s good. To pretend to be against such things as the judgment of God on nations that were given time to reptent and refused is hypocritical as we’re in the darkest ages in that regard in the entire history of the human race.

            God offers forgiveness. We spit on it, demand to pay the penalty ourselves, become barbaric_killers of 55 MILLION innocent sons/daughters and then want to pretend God is the evil one. We will get exactly what we demand to get.

          • NoGod4U

            You do realize you’ve actually said nothing new and are simply repeating yourself… right?

    • Bolvon72

      I guess in reference to teaching the bible in public schools one can still say “Shut up, it’s still illegal.” Huh?

      • Reason2012

        It’s America – on a school by school basis by popular demand they can choose to follow our nation’s heritage, or they can choose to NOT follow our heritage. But the homosexual activists by force of law are indoctrinating everyone’s kids whether they want it or not. Huge difference.

  • ForrestErickson

    Why should anyone take seriously a book with a talking snake?

    • Reason2012

      The snaked didn’t talk – satan spoke through it. And yet you believe snakes, frogs, fish, porcupines and more could all learn to read/write books, publish them, sell them, pass laws, arrest people, design and fly airplanes, design and program computers, all if you just “give it enough time” – you believe far worse than that which you condemn, which exposes the hypocrisy of pretending this is why you reject the truth of God.

      • morgan

        What? This posting makes no sense. It’s totally insane.

        • Reason2012

          You’re right – the belief of evolutionists do not make sense. They believe that your great……..great grandparents were reptiles … and before that frogs ….. and before that fish. So they in fact believe that fish, frogs, reptiles and more could eventually learn to do all those things (read/write books, publish them, and so on) if you just “give it millions of years”. A fairy tale replacing a prince kissing a frog with millions of years to now make it “fact”.

          • SashaC

            Evolutionists make no sense to you because you clearly don’t understand evolution, on even the most basic level.

          • Reason2012

            Feel free to refute a single detail of what I got wrong – just one. Cite your source to back up your claim. Every time I call someone on it, they either run away, or prove what I said is 100% right.

            Your move.

          • SashaC

            Truly, your beliefs are so insanely absurd, they don’t warrant a response. If you wanted to accept the truth, you could google evolution and immediately learn how off base you are at the most fundamental level. You don’t want to accept, so you will use circular reasoning and other logical fallacies to protect your misguided beliefs at all costs. I would waste my time and get nowhere. The reason no one engages you is that we are smart enough to know the difference between a debate and engaging in pigeon chess.

            Pigeon Chess: Arguing evolution with a religious person is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how soundly they are beat, the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, strut around victoriously and return to the flock to claim victory.

            The great thing about science and evolution is that it is true, whether you choose to believe it or not.

          • Reason2012

            So in other words you cannot point out even ONE detail that I supposed got wrong. Should be easy since you seem to “know” that I’m “so off base”. Yet you cannot back it up.

            As I said, every time I call them on it, they avoid it like the plague or end up proving what I said was accurate. Thank you for proving my point.

            Yes, science is great. Evolutionism is anti-science. If you want to believe your great……..great grandparents were reptiles, that’s up to you – it’s just a belief that goes against observable, scientific fact.

            Take care.

          • NoGod4U

            Reason2012, you and I both know your mind is already convinced of your divine revelations… but for those who may be reading this and are perhaps looking at the conversation of evolution with an open mind I’ll share with you your requested ONE detail… the Telomeres of chromosome 2, you can google for details.

            Now feel free to perform the pigeon chess routine that SashaC describes, or fly away.

          • Reason2012

            So notice NONE of you can point out a single detail – just ONE – that I supposedly got wrong. Thank you for proving my point.

          • NoGod4U

            Are you just pretending to be dense? A fish which evolves into a frog is no longer a fish and an amphibian which evolves into a reptile is no longer a frog etc etc etc.. thus the point where you’re wrong is first in your understanding of evolution but more to the point is in your assertion that “fish, frogs, reptiles and more could eventually learn to do all those
            things (read/write books, publish them, and so on) ” because last time I checked fish don’t read books or publish them and I don’t know of any scientist who would assert otherwise. Please feel free to continue the pigeon routine if you so choose.

          • Reason2012

            “fish, frogs, reptiles and more could eventually learn to do all those things” – as evolutionists say “well human beings are STILL FISH” – and yet here we go “fish” reading/writing/publishing books. Better talk to world-renowned evolutionists like Myers who says “well human beings are still fish”. There are PhD evolutionists who say just that. But of course there are some who do not. Even they cannot seem to agree on what their mythology is all about.

            So still waiting for you to point out something I said about what evolutionists believe that is wrong.

            You can’t.

            Your non-stop ad hominem attacks do not change that. Thanks for proving the point. Take care.

          • NoGod4U

            It’s amazing (amusing) to me that you genuinely believe you’ve refuted the entirety of evolutionary science via misrepresentation and quote mining.

          • Reason2012

            Feel free to back up your claim I misrepresented the beliefs of evolutionists. Every time I call someone on it they either vanish, refuse to back it up, or when they try they prove what I said is accurate. Your move.

          • NoGod4U

            Thank “God” you and Ray Comfort are here and through your in depth research and understanding have shown, that the geneticists,
            the biochemists, the zoologists, the biologists, the geologists, the
            paleontologists, the ecologists, the comparative anatomists and
            physiologists, the cosmologists, literally every branch of science that works with the theory of evolution are sorely mistaken… because well, what part of the pigeon chess analogy do you feel is not accurate in your case?

          • Reason2012

            So in other words you cannot back up your claim that I misrepresent it. Thank you for proving my point.

        • SashaC

          Well of course it makes sense. A talking snake is just ridiculous! But the devil speaking through the snake is completely logical, lol!

      • ForrestErickson

        So “The snaked didn’t talk” and yet the bible (KJV) says, “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

        ” Is not the “he” of “he said unto the woman” a pronoun referring back to the snake?

        Does Reason2012 not know his/her bible?

        • Reason2012

          Hello.

          Revelation 12:9 “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

          So in that instance it was satan talking, not a snake who happened to have an ability to talk with nothing to do with satan.

          So how is it you believe snakes, frogs, fish, porcupines and more could all learn to read/write books, publish them, sell them, pass laws, arrest people, design and fly airplanes, design and program computers, all if you just “give it enough time” – you believe far worse than that which you condemn, which exposes the hypocrisy of pretending this is why you reject the truth of God.

  • GeniusPhx

    its useless to re-litigate what is voluntary, what is fact or history. the courts decided long ago that teaching any religion in a public school violates church and govt separation. it isnt even close. stop it. its against the law.

    • Reason2012

      (1) There is no such thing as “separation of church and state” in the Constitution. That phrase came from the time a Pastor wrote a letter to Jefferson expressing his fears that Jefferson would in some way restrict religious freedoms. In response to these fears, Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter back to indicate that he would in no way restrict the freedom of religious expression because he saw a wall of separation between church and state.

      So actually the phrase means the exact opposite of what a few claim it means: it re-iterates the First Amendment, that government shall make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religious expression.

      (2) First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; And yet those who reject God demand the government establish its own denomination of Christianity with its own version of marriage. A violation of the First Amendment.

      (3) Congress/government also cannnot make a law prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

      A school can decide to, for example, put up Ten Commandment displays and no one can force them not to.

      A school can decide NOT to put up Ten Commandment displays and no one can force them to.

      But in a Christian nation, the populace will be personally choosing to put up Ten Commandment displays often. Those that do not like this can start voting in a large number of people that believe differently and hope it changes.

      That’s liberty.

      That’s freedom.

      That’s the Constitution many died to create.

      That’s the United States of America.

      Start understanding the Constitution, the First Amendment and the lie about “separation to church and state” and take back our right to honor and worship God as people in positions of leadership personally choose and see fit to on a case by case basis.

      • NoGod4U

        And That’s ignorance… sad too, because if you really understood the history of the separation of church and state you’d see it wasn’t the big bad humanist/homosexual/atheists that the government was protecting the church against in regard to religious freedoms… it was other Christians.

        • Reason2012

          No, the government was re-iterating the First Amendment that it would not interfere with the religious freedoms many died to create.

          • NoGod4U

            You do realize repeating the same diatribe over and over doesn’t make it factually true… right? Stop reading/listening to people like David Barton and learn actual history.

          • Reason2012

            You’re free to say “you’re wrong b/c I said so”. The First Amendment says otherwise.

          • NoGod4U

            Your ignorance on the matter has nothing to do with my freedom or need to say anything, it’s self evident.

          • Rose

            I must ask, what is your business here? Why are you here? Is it simply to anger Christians by trying to disprove what we believe or are you actually trying to engage in a professional debate?

          • NoGod4U

            Rose dear do you really need the purpose of a comment section explained to you? The internet isn’t your Church and this comment section isn’t your women’s bible study it’s a public forum… you may be reading this in the comfort of your own home (or nursing facility) but the comments here are essentially the same thing as standing up and proclaiming in a crowded Mall area your opinions to the story that’s currently playing on the news (supposedly this is a news article). So when Christians stand up and proclaim idiotic things like “There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution.” why are you surprised that others respond?

          • Rose

            Because this is a Christian site. There are sites where you can debate on where you stand with religion, but that is not this site, it specifically says ‘Christian News’ in the name. The comment section is supposed to be where people of like minds can comment and communicate. And what you believe is ‘idiotic’ I take it seriously.

          • NoGod4U

            “And what you believe is ‘idiotic’ I take it seriously” … I know.

          • Dave Burrier

            Rose, I just cannot understand why you think this a Christian only site. The article here is about school bible classes. It is only logical that Atheist, Muslims, or any others have an equal say in the debate. Right?
            Now if you wish to comment and communicate with people of like minds, there is always your church. That’s a good place not to find us infidels. Right?

          • Rose

            I believe that anybody can go to church, Atheist or Muslim if they’re curious about the religion and aren’t satisfied with how they’ve been living. Church is a place for healing, not always just to communicate with like minds. I figured that this was a Christian only site because the title of the website is ‘Christian News Network’ and it’s articles that are made by Christians. But I do understand where you’re getting at, but sometimes it does get a little too out of hand and personal and it kinda gets annoying. If it was to debate there wouldn’t be anything personal, it would be statements saying ‘well i believe this’ and ‘i believe that’. Kinda like how we’re discussing this right now. No plain ‘this is right’ or ‘this is totally wrong’.

          • bigpawn01

            no it dont and that’s what you dont get. you think you can twist the first amendment to mean what ever you want it to mean like you do your bible and that just does not hold water in the real world.

          • Reason2012

            There’s nothing to “twist” about “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. Words mean what they say.

          • bigpawn01

            ok we got this far now how is offering a bible class at school not establishing a religion?

          • Reason2012

            No law is being passed FORCING them to do so – it’s a case by case basis. If a law was passed FORCING schools to do so, you’d be right.

          • bigpawn01

            the class is being paid for by tax payers and that is wrong.

          • Reason2012

            And ANY class can CHOOSE not to do so or choose to do so. No laws can be passed to force them either way. So to pass laws to prohibit it is a violation of the Constitution as much as laws being passed to force them to do so.

          • bigpawn01

            sure my friend if that what you want to believe but the rest of us in the real world know what words mean and we will just stick to doing things the way they were intended to be done. thank you have a good day and ill be here all week come again.

          • Reason2012

            Hello. Yes, and the words of Constitution “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” means “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion” – and no laws have been made here forcing people to study the Bible. We know what words mean, as it were.

            Take care.

          • bigpawn01

            no law was passed true the school took it upon them selves to spend tax dollars on a christian class it is not lawful to do so.

          • Reason2012

            Where does it say in the Constitution “no money can be used to promote or deny any religious expression”?

          • bigpawn01

            the state shall establish no religion im not gonna argue constitutional law with some one who already knows it and has already chosen to twist it to mean some thing wants it to mean . bottom line you can not use tax payers money to support one religion get over it and move on.

          • Reason2012

            It’s “twisting” the First Amendment to point out it means what it says? Not at all. Congress shall pass no law either way: to establish or prohibit. No law has been passed here and no law can be said to PROHIBIT them from doing what they did.

            Please back up where it says in our Constitution the taxpayers cannot use their own money on a case by case basis to mention God or NOT mention God? Nowhere. You might hate that truth, but it does not make it any less true.

            Take care.

          • bigpawn01

            no point is arguing with you it will not change the fact those class’s are gonna come to and end weather you and your friends like it or not.

          • Reason2012

            And others will fight against those trying to impose their religion of secularism by force of law on everyone else- in effect by force of law prohibiting the freedom of religious expression.

          • supup

            “(c) The Establishment Clause was inspired by the lesson that in the hands of government what might begin as a tolerant expression of religious views may end in a policy to indoctrinate and coerce. Prayer exercises in elementary and secondary schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U. S. 421; School Dist. of Abington v. Schempp, 374 U. S. 203.” Lee v. Weisman 1992 Supreme Court of the United States

      • Landslug

        “Congress/government also cannnot make a law prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
        That applies to individuals not to the government itself, which is what is going on here.
        The government (and by extension a taxpayer funded public school) does not have ‘rights’

        “There is no such thing as “separation of church and state” in the Constitution.”

        Yes there is. The phrase is merely a description of what the actual 1st Amendment creates. The phrase ‘system of checks and balances’ also doesnt exist in the Constitution, but the words create just such a government

        • Reason2012

          No, the First Amdnment makes it clear congress shall pass no laws ESTABLISHING nor PROHIBITING.

          (1) No law was passed to establish that team must pray
          (2) It cannot be lllegal for a team to choose to pray, as that would be a violation of the First Amendment.

          • supup

            A team can choose to pray. Student-led prayers are not prohibited.

      • supup

        “We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt.” James Madison

        “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[3]”

        John Adams, Treaty of Tripoli – 1797

        “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[20]” Thomas Jefferson – 1802

        “The structure of our government has, for the preservation of civil liberty, rescued the temporal institutions from religious interference. On the other hand, it has secured religious liberty from the invasion of the civil authority.” Watson v. Jones, 80 US 679 – Supreme Court 1872

        “If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.” West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U. S. 624, 642 (1943): Justice Jackson

        “The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable.” Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing, 330 US 1 – Supreme Court 1947.

        McCollum v. Bd. of Educ., 333 U.S. 203, 231 (1948). In “no activity of the State is it more vital to keep out divisive forces than in its schools, to avoid confusing, not to say fusing, what the Constitution sought to keep strictly apart.” Id.

        There cannot be the slightest doubt that the First Amendment reflects the philosophy that Church and State should be separated. And so far as interference with the “free exercise” of religion and an “establishment” of religion are concerned, the separation must be complete and unequivocal. The First Amendment within the scope of its coverage permits no exception; the prohibition is absolute.” (Zorach v. Clauson SCOTUS 1954)

  • John Lockard

    To all Christians we need to start fighting back for are Christian rights! We are soldiers of Christ born not of this world but of GOD! The moment we gave are lives to Jesus we became soldiers. The world says the deal with zero tolerance with bullying but Christian faith and practices isn’t? If we don’t stand soon there won’t be any bibles or churches soon. In the past 10 yrs we been laying down. An being trampled on wake up brother’s and sister’s of Christ. An if we keep laying down. One day one of us will be thrown in jail for saying the word Jesus!!

    • Asemodeus

      The ironic thing about your post is that public schools were created, in part, to destroy sectarian religious schools in the late 19th century. All of which done by law abiding christian citizens.

    • NoGod4U

      Sounds like a Christian Taliban cry to me…was that your intent?

  • ShepherdsLamb

    What a mess. Good is evil and evil is good. Welcome to the End Times.

  • Jeff Claiborne

    Yet they have no problem with pushing atheism in the public schools. It seems like this is a fight for influence territory.

    • Bolvon72

      atheism, er secularism, is simply teaching, where’s the issue?

  • Bolvon72

    Ah yes, people always arguing that atheistic scum is always trying to start trouble. When you constantly go against the constitution, you should expect someone to speak out against you. If it is a religious matter that crosses the line, of course atheists will speak out.

  • DuneDude

    In Idaho when the Mormons wanted to have instruction during the school day, they left the campus and went to a LDS building for their instruction. That was in the 1950s and they were not allowed to proselytize within any of the schools.

  • Glenn Rittenhouse

    if the class was teaching the quran, and didnt give the option for any other biblical text, maybe you might understand the problem.

  • Rob McClain

    Regardless of the location of the constitutional violation, it should be addressed by legal means. Christians have many alternatives and avenues for teaching the tenets of their faith without openly and blatantly misusing public resources.

    The groundswell of Christian defiance in this country is no less disturbing than that seen among fundamentalist factions in other periods of history. We’ve already seen the murder of abortion doctors. What next? Will those who hold with faith healing rise up against physicians who perform appendectomies?

    Perhaps you’d like the government to modify the 1st amendment so scientists can come and teach evolution in Sunday school?

    • Asemodeus

      “What next?”

      Oh that is easy to find out. Their hatred of both contraception and abortion, two opposites, is a sign that fundamentalists are more angry at a overall issue: Women.

      They loathe the fact that women are becoming more empowered with increasing educational and job opportunities, being more capable of sustaining themselves without a husband and spitting out babies nonstop. To fundies social progress is a zero sum game. Grant more rights and freedoms to other people and as a result they get harmed, even if they are never actually harmed.

      It’s the reason why the republican party is almost entirely made out of men. The idea of a empowered woman is repulsive.

  • Doug

    It’s promising that so many non-believers take comfort reading Christian publications and participating in their forums. But what they really ought to be looking at in the humble spirit of learning are the words of Jesus Christ. Surely they aren’t afraid of what they’ll find…are they? What they’ll find is the Answer to their fears–the weight on their hearts–and that they/we can’t have all the answers in this life. There’s enough truth in the Bible. God is sufficient.

    • Dave Burrier

      Been there, done that! No more nonsense.

    • Lexi Kyzar

      Nah, sorry. I got diverted here from the atheist blog I read daily. I went through the whole religious upbringing. Nothing on these blogs I have already heard and rejected as untrue.

      • katiehippie

        Yeah, we aren’t exactly ‘taking comfort’. More like laughing and shaking our heads.

      • http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougjorgensen Doug in Texas

        Lexi, are you not religious about rejecting the idea of a God Who knows you better than you know yourself, brought you here for a specific purpose and Who loves you like no one can? This isn’t about a religion; it’s about a relationship that answers that longing we all have for something more. I wasn’t brought up with Him, and I needed Him terribly.

  • gager

    Next to demand to teach in public schools will be Muslims and then you will see the value of separation of church and government.

  • [email protected]

    If the kids want to study the Bible, then let them study the Bible. It’s a free country. Just leave them the fuck alone already. Geez Louise.

    • Nell Webbish

      Any kid that wants to study the Bible can study the Bible.

      What is being objected to is the use of public resources to teach one specific religion to kids in public school classrooms.

  • Sungoddess

    I would be taking my children out of school so fast ,brain wash your own children on your own time I prefer. Mine to learn useful things .

  • Kurt Wolery

    Do the parents in the district want all religions taught or just their own version? Do the children not learn enough about the bible in Sunday school, home and weekday church activities? A government endorsement of THEIR religion would make it look to the kids that there is no other choices of belief but theirs. It is unconstitutional for good reason. What if it were the Book of Mormon being taught instead? Quran? It’s not hard to see that separation of church and state protects everybody.

    • bigpawn01

      they are losing their grip on the public and have decided to double down on childhood indoctrination.

  • Dr. Z

    You are all fools! Allah is the one true savior! Schools should be teaching the true judgement of mankind by Allah, Jesus was nobody! An infidel! Why worship a man when you can worship Allah, the one true god!

  • Lexi Kyzar

    North Carolina was 34th in 8th grade reading in 2013. Maybe they should replace the optional bible study with more reading classes.

    I went to school with a friend who is part of a deeply religious family. They went to church 3 days a week (probably still do; I live in a different state now). They never, ever thought she needed to learn about her religion at school. So why is this such a thing? Are some people too lazy to take their kids to church? Do they have to prove, in yet one more way, their religion has the power? It’s unneccessary, a waste of resources, a waste of time to educate students, and illegal. Really, what’s not to love.

    One more thing: American Colonists had a lot of interesting religious traditions, including executing Christians who weren’t the right type of Christians, or, heck, Christians who were the right type, but got on the wrong side of a witchcraft accusation. These are your role models?

  • DoctorDJ

    Massachusetts Massachusetts also had a neat tradition of burning witches. Yea, let’s do that, too!

  • Landslug

    Why is what happened in the pre-constitutional colonies even relevant?

  • Nell Webbish

    Uhm, Ms. Clark, the discriminatory, theocratic nature of the early colonies … where even believing in the wrong kind of Christianity could result in being jailed, exiled or executed … is a large part of why the Founding Fathers created the First Amendment protections from government being used to promote religion.

    They rejected the early colonial approach where government and religion were enmeshed because it inevitably results in tyranny and injustice.

    • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

      Because that knowledge provides a solid, objective base for understanding the intent of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

  • Nell Webbish

    What the hell is the matter with these parents that they can’t manage to raise their kids in the religion of their choice without public welfare? What’s next, you need tax-payer money to bus them to church on Sunday’s because you can’t be bothered?

    Here’s a thought mom and dad, turn off Duck Dynasty and sit down with your kids and the Bible if it’s that important to you.

    Stop expecting Big Government to do your job as a parent for you.

  • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

    When I was in high school there was an elective Bible class which I elected to attend. Evolution was never mentioned in biology class, or any other for that matter. Thus, I graduated having little knowledge of other religions and cultures.

    Yet, in the months that followed, I experienced three quite sudden and striking moments of clarity. After the third, I understood that one’s religious beliefs are most likely to be what one was taught to believe from tothood. Had I been born to some other family and society that believed some other religion such as Islam, I would have believed that religion every bit as much as I had believed in Christianity.

    I decided then to enroll in college and learn as much as I could about world religions, philosophy, and paleoanthropology (evolution). I wanted wide and diverse knowledge on which I was more apt to make better decisions about life and its meaning. I vowed to follow the arguments to their logical conclusion, and I would accept that conclusion no matter how uncomfortable it might make me feel.

    I believe my journey is complete. The only doctrine I now follow (though I fall short sometimes) is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

    Therefore, I fully agree with the FFRF. Unless the school board allows other religions to teach children their message, the existence of the Bible classes is unconstitutional. Children should be taught ABOUT the various world religions. If taught objectively, it could lead to a far greater understanding of other people and their cultures.

  • supup

    What would life be like if we did them just as we did in 1647?