Russell Moore, Rick Warren to Join ‘Pope Francis’ With Muslims, Buddhists for Interfaith Conference

Vatican Credit Thomas RoemerROME — Russell Moore, the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, and Saddleback megachurch leader Rick Warren will team up with Roman Catholic Pontiff Francis later this month for an interfaith Vatican conference on marriage and family.

“Complementarity of Man and Woman,” will be held Nov. 17-19 at the Vatican, and is expected to feature more than 30 speakers from over 20 countries. According to the Catholic News Service, those of the Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Jaina Shasana, Taoist and Sikh religions will be present, as well as Roman Catholics and professing Christians.

The event is sponsored by the Pontifical Council for the Family, the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.

“I hope that this gathering of religious leaders can stand in solidarity on the common grace, creational mandate of marriage and family as necessary for human flourishing and social good,” Moore wrote in a blog post this week entitled “Why I’m Going to the Vatican.” “I also hope that we can learn from one another about where these matters stand around the world.”

While acknowledging his doctrinal disagreements with the pope and the others in attendance, Moore stated that he is “willing to go anywhere, when asked, to bear witness to what we as evangelical Protestants believe about marriage and the gospel, especially in times in which marriage is culturally imperiled.”

Rick Warren, the author of “The Purpose Driven Life,” has spoken glowingly of Pope Francis during several public interviews about the pontiff and the Roman Catholic religion.

“[Pope Francis] is doing everything right. You see, people will listen to what we say if they like what they see,” Warren stated on Catholic television network EWTN earlier this year. “His kissing of this deformed man, his loving the children, this authenticity, this humility, the caring for the poor; this is what the whole world expects Christians to do. And when they go, ‘Oh, that’s what a Christian does.’—In fact, there was a headline here in Orange County—and I loved the headline—I saved it. It said, ‘If you love Pope Francis, you’ll love Jesus.'”

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Last year, Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries called Warren’s ecumenism with the Roman Catholic Church a “real tragedy.”

“Right now, the Body of Christ doesn’t know whether to evangelize Roman Catholics or to join hands with them to go out and evangelize the world, [and] it’s because of people like Rick Warrren who either don’t know how exclusive the gospel of grace is, or he’s not aware of the false and fatal gospel of the Roman Catholic religion,” Gendron stated.

In addition to Warren and Moore, the upcoming Vatican conference will feature Wael Farouq, a Muslim and president of the Tawasul Cultural Center, top-ranking Mormon Henry B. Eyring and Manmohan Singh of the World Sikh Council. Conferences will include “The Cradle of Life and Love: A Mother and Father for the World’s Children” and “The Sacramentality of Human Love According to St. John Paul II.”

The meeting follows a recent synod featuring over 200 Roman Catholic bishops who gathered in Rome for two weeks to discuss marriage and family issues, such as homosexuality, cohabitation and divorce. The initial relatio released by the synod generated controversy and concern over its inclusive tone, as it stated that “[h]omosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community.” It was later left out of the submitted draft as a consensus could not be reached on the matter.

Photo: Thomas Roemer


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  • Gary

    Birds of a feather flock together.

  • Martin

    Awesome so much for “the pope is for gay marriage” crowd. Hope they learn their lesson.

  • Frank

    The Ecumenical Movement was started by th Pope to get Protestants back into the RCC fold. Sadly many Protestant/Christian people have fallen for this satanic thought process. Boil the lobster by slowly turning up the heat so they don’t know the fires are there until its too late. God has spoken heavily against having fellowship with false teachers. Says that if you do you share in their sins. Well Christians don’t sin God also says. Come out from among them. Stand firm on the Truth. Stop being lukewarm before you get spit out.

    • Al Pi

      No christians sin but true christians repent of it and have no fellowship with these shameless bunch.

      • sahana64

        1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

        Christian’s do sin and to say other wise the true is not in us. The difference between the Christians and those without Christ is, the Christian has the Holy Spirit within him to bring to mind what is acceptable to God and to repent and turn from those evil ways. The closer we are to God (by reading His Word, hearing the Word of God preached, and spending time in prayer) the less we will fall into sin, but yes, Christians do and will always have sin issues in the future because we live in a fallen world. As long as the christian is in this world their flesh will be in conflict with the spirit. When a person is born again they become a new creature filled with the Spirit of the Holy Spirit, Who will lead and guide the Christian. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit the Christian can overcome sinful things in their life. A Christian should avoid worldly situations that would lead to sin.

        Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

        • Al Pi

          Well thanks for preaching to the choir lol 🙂

        • Frank

          May I suggest you read the few verses before, the few verses after and chapter 3 of 1 John. A lot of people understood the Spirit of what I wrote and meant, which makes sense as this is a Christian website and thus the choir. If you want to argue about it, may I suggest reading 2 Timothy 2:14,23. Please, have a blessed day.

        • wandakate

          SAHANA64…The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. It helps us to know what we should and should not be doing. It tell us rights and wrongs. There were bracelets that said “WHAT WOULD JESUS DO”. OR “WWJD”. When we do sin, we will realize it. I know right away when I have said or done something contrary to what would please JESUS, and I repent of it before I go to sleep that night. Asking GOD to forgive me of all my sins and trespasses in the name of JESUS. And yes, a Christian should always avoid worldly situations that would or could lead to any sin. James says, We are saved by grace, but we will be judged by our works/deeds.

  • Susan Moore

    Rick Warren now comes off my Facebook page. The Bible says NO to gay marriage. You do not have to hate gay people. Love them as they are God’s children and pray for them. You do not have to like the way they live. Teach them the Bible.

    • Demopublicrat

      Now? He should have been off there years ago.

    • Chrissy Vee

      They are God’s creation, not His children. You are not a child of God until you are adopted into His family by the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Until you are you are separated from God and the child of the devil.

      • kenzo eboa

        true: Far from thinking amalgamate the world and the truth of God, the psalmist clearly separates the “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, which does not stop on the way of sinners, and that not sitting on the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night “(Psalm 1: 1,2)..

      • wandakate

        Very true, they must confess, repent and forsake their sins just like any other sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. Paul said, “I sin daily”. We are to repent daily and ask the LORD to forgive us of our sins whatever they may be and our trespasses as well. We must realize when we sin and confess it before the sun goes down or before we go to sleep at night. He is just and will forgive us for our sins and unrighteousness.

    • kenzo eboa

      The word of GOD said: Far from thinking amalgamate the world and the truth of God, the psalmist clearly separates the “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, which does not stop on the way of sinners, and that not sitting on the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and who meditates on his law day and night “(Psalm 1: 1,2)..

    • wandakate

      SUSAN MOORE: We can certainly love the sinner and hate the sin. BUT, until they know the “truth” they can’t be set free. JESUS came to set the captives free. They are in bondage to Satan and sin. The bible says that there will be NO sin in the Kingdom of GOD. Homosexuals won’t be in Heaven, until they confess, repent and forsake of that sin. The bible says that the sexual immoral won’t enter the Kingdom of GOD. So, yes they need prayer.

  • Demopublicrat

    Working toward that one-world religion, then the pope can declare he is god.

    • BeWhoYouAre

      That’s not going to happen. The pope is the pope, he doesn’t claim to be God.

      • Demopublicrat

        -These words appeared in the Roman Canon Law: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.-I?i the Gloss “Extravagantes” o.f Pope John XXII Cum inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685.

        • BeWhoYouAre

          There’s an excellent web page dealing with this claim. To summarize that page: the original edition of the Extravagantes doesn’t contain that passage at all; it appears in an edition printed 300 years later. The passage in question is in a gloss (commentary), not in the main text itself, so
          even if it were authentic, it would not have the force of law. And, finally, even if the phrase were in Canon Law, it would have no doctrinal force. Canon Law is not intended to present the teachings of the Church and does not do so definitively, though it sometimes repeats those teachings to give context to the canons. So all we have here is a quotation of unknown provenance, added to the text at a later date, that would prove nothing at all even if it had been authentic.

          • Demopublicrat

            Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

            “All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” – On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

            “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.” Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Most telling of all is that no Catholic refers to the pope, or even THINKS of the pope, as God.

          • Demopublicrat

            and they don’t worship mary, riiiight.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            That’s right. What is confusing you is that what is simple reverence and respect for the mother of Christ is not worship. You should really watch that by the way, I’m sure Jesus Christ doesn’t take kindly to people who hate His mother.

          • Demopublicrat

            Do show a scripture reference stating that mary has any relevance what-so-ever to salvation or the Christian life other than her being a vessel.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Why? I’m not a Bible-only Christian like you, so why would I play using your rules? I think they’re wrong.

            Anyway no one ever said Mary had relevance to salvation, because no one ASKS Mary for salvation. Catholics are Christians, they turn to Christ for salvation.

          • Demopublicrat

            You and the mormons and jw’s must get along swimmingly – you all claim a false version.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            And who told you the fundie version was right? God? Never mind that there were no fundies for thousands of years. Guess all those people went to hell, right? Guess that makes you pretty happy, right?

          • Demopublicrat

            God’s word clearly states it is all we need. It was “fundies” that were the first church, it wasn’t until simon magus and constantine created their pagan-“Christian” hybrid that the RCC started.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No, American styled fundamentalism is very young and has nothing to do with the original Christians who were Catholic and Orthodox.

          • Demopublicrat

            Clearly you have no knowledge of biblical truth.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Clearly you do not know anything about Catholicism, and it would be best if you admitted that because then your radical hateful fundamentalism would be clearer to everyone else.

          • pax2u

            bless you for the strength and patience to deal with anti Christian bigots

          • Demopublicrat

            “On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome.”-Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic) They are dealing with the pope?

          • pax2u

            and one million Irish Catholics died during the Irish famine as their Protestant land lords exported food from Ireland, did you say that you have no denomination, I hope so

          • Demopublicrat

            That excuses the 70,000 and the inquisition, and the Visigoths, and…

          • pax2u

            it is best that you have no denomination

          • wandakate

            PAX2U: That is probably true since all of them are very messed up, have watered down the gospel of CHRIST. They have added to it, taken away from it and don’t preach the truth. The people of all denominations are deceived and don’t know truth from error. The scripture says, And all the world followed the beast. I believe that most people will, as that is how deceived they have become.

          • wandakate

            DEMOPUBLICRAT: Did you know that before Pope John Paul passed away he prayed asking GOD to forgive him of his sins and those of his HRCC. Their sins were piled to the heavens and he asked GOD to forgive that. How bout that? He knew full well the murders that they committed and wanted them to be forgiven.

          • Demopublicrat

            That would not surprise me.

          • Demopublicrat

            I know what I can plainly see and read in the Bible, even the part that talks about this: “…your radical hateful fundamentalism…”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Well, so, why ARE you practicing radical hateful fundamentalism? Why don’t you become a Christian instead?

          • Demopublicrat

            I am, that’s why I know mary was merely a vessel and has absolutely nothing to do with our salvation, she doesn’t hear when you pray to her, she wasn’t sinless, she isn’t a perpetual virgin, she doesn’t appear anywhere, she isn’t the queen of anything,…

          • BeWhoYouAre

            If you think Mary is dead and not alive in heaven then what hope is there for the rest of us? Why are you opposed to people showing her simple veneration and respect, which as the mother of Jesus she is owed? Why don’t you know the difference between simple respect and worship, and why do you accuse 1.2 billion people of something they’re not doing?

          • Demopublicrat

            veneration, synonymous with worship. Jesus existed BEFORE coming to earth, mary was little more than the wrapper he came in. Jesus/God stated King David was a man after his own heart, and John the Baptist was the greatest man who ever lived. About mary? nothing about deserving veneration/worship or hearing when you pray to her, she wasn’t sinless, she isn’t a perpetual virgin, she doesn’t appear anywhere, she isn’t the queen of anything,…

            “1.2 billion people” “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:” Matthew 7:13

          • BeWhoYouAre

            ven·er·a·tion
            ˌvenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
            noun
            noun: veneration; plural noun: venerations
            great respect; reverence.

            Hm, nothing there about worship. Guess it’s time you admitted you’re wrong. Unless you want to accuse the dictionary of being wrong too.

          • Demopublicrat

            You missed this part:
            Worship synonyms:
            honor, homage, adoration, idolatry, venerate, revere, adore, glorify, idolize, adulate.
            Oh look, venerate and idolatry. Unless you want to accuse the dictionary of being wrong too.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Lying for Jesus is still lying. My dictionary shows nothing of the kind.

          • Demopublicrat

            You got ripped off.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            And for the record, bowing to the pope or kissing his ring are not signs of WORSHIP either, but simple respect. Something you could stand to learn a thing or two about.

          • Demopublicrat

            A big pile of bovine feces by any other name…

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Well of course, we have 1.2 billion people telling you what they’re doing, and you insist they’re doing something else. You know the hearts and minds of 1.2 billion people better than they know themselves. This is why most people find fundamentalist Christianity so completely off its rocker.

          • Demopublicrat

            I can plainly see the actions, do the 1.2 billion brainwashed blind followers think we are blind?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            That’s rich, the original Christians are being told they’re wrong by someone who started his religion 50 years ago by waving a few snakes around.

          • Demopublicrat

            Constantine waved snakes around?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Ask one of your own brainwashed blind Pat Robertson groupies. I’m sure you can find it in any reputable history book (i.e. one not written by Jack Chick).

          • Demopublicrat

            Sorry none of the above, do you wear your fish hat when you go fishing?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Do you speak in tongues when you burn Darwin textbooks?

          • Demopublicrat

            A swing and a miss. Do you worship mary while studying your Darwin books?

          • Demopublicrat

            Constantine was more than 50 years ago.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            The Catholic church started in 33 AD.

          • Demopublicrat

            Was that from some papal comic book? The RCC was started by an infusion of the true church with paganism in an attempt to hijack the truth and claim jurisdiction over it. Simon magus and Constantine – the real first catholic leaders.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            That is thoroughly tired, debunked nonsense you read in a Jack Chick comic book. Read a real history book sometime.

          • Demopublicrat

            Debunked? by who the RCC comic book? I have read history untouched by catholics. Read the Bible some time, then you would see the cult you’re in.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            LOL! I should submit that comment to fstdt.com!

            You’ve been lied to to the point where you can’t even accept historical facts from history textbook. You call Catholicism, the original Christian church who gave you the Bible you worship a “cult” and expect o be taken seriously! You’re a riot! But please, DO provide some of your “proof” – I’m sure I know exactly where you’re going to get it from, but do your best…

          • Demopublicrat

            More BS catholic propaganda. Take a hard look at the RCC and it should become obvious, it contradicts scripture constantly. Start with the pope claiming the ability to change God’s law – the Sabbath. Then there is the mystery Babylon “queen of heaven” sacrilege, the graven images, Ishtar, winter solstice celebration, works getting people to heaven, praying for the dead, indulgences, on and on and on. You can’t biblically back one shred of any of that up.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Catholics don’t believe most of what you posted, you’re not following Catholic teachings with this, but fundie reinterpretations of what Catholics believe. But by all means, keep beating the living hell out of that strawman, as long we we’re clear that it’s not Catholicism you’re attacking.

          • Demopublicrat

            Deny, deny, deny, you haven’t a clue about your own cult dancing around tossing out “fundie” (which must be the sign you can’t answer). You can’t biblically back one shred of any of that up, but hide behind the word “fundie” because you know it’s true. Take the “queen of heaven” thing, I have the publication direct from the local catholic church right in front of me that says it, yet it must be a lie right?

            “The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.” Jeremiah 7:18

          • BeWhoYouAre

            That’s because I’m not a “Bible-only” Christian. Sola Scriptura is your stupid rule, why should I follow it? You want to toss out thousands of years of church teachings that’s your business.

            “Queen of Heaven” is valid. It’s the expression itself you don’t understand.

          • Demopublicrat

            So what you’re saying is that God forgot a bunch of stuff and got other thing’s wrong in his inspired book. That having a definitive “life instruction book” is wrong, that sinful men should be allowed to add or take away from the inspired Word of God at their very whim.
            If thousands of years of man-made teachings are wrong, toss ’em.
            The only time “queen of heaven” is mentioned in the Bible, it is during a time of God’s judgment for worshipping same, so then how is it valid? Baal worship was around before the RCC (they just absorbed much of it) does that make it more valid?
            Now graven images, or do you want to discuss Ishtar?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “So what you’re saying is that God forgot a bunch of stuff” >snipsnip<

            You need to stop pretending everyone is a sola scriptura Christian just because YOU are.

          • Demopublicrat

            “…Sola Scriptura is your stupid rule…” Meaning God forgot a bunch of stuff even though the Bible states it is ALL we need. Fell free to tell me what else it could mean. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2Timothy 3:16-17 – not traditions of man.

            “Did God come down and tell you they’re wrong…” He did in His Word. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8 I don’t read Jack Chick, so you and paxy can keep that to yourselves, it isn’t valid.

            I noticed you can’t defend your un-biblical fallicies, you instead throw out some lame blanket statement about popular opinion: “You need to stop pretending everyone is a sola scriptura Christian just because YOU are.” Now what does the Bible say about popular opinion…

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Sola Scriptura, since you worship it so much, isn’t even in your precious Bible as a command. You haven’t thought this through, have you?

            Care to explain to me how the Bible is any less “man made” than sacred traditions and church teachings? We already KNOW its meaning can be altered otherwise we wouldn’t have so many different translations.

            “He did in His Word.”

            Which you clearly have misunderstood. It was going along fine for 2000 years before you fundies corrupted it.

            “I noticed you can’t defend your un-biblical fallicies”

            Not “un-biblical”. NON-biblical. You are using the Bible’s silence on a subject to suit your purposes. You cannot argue from the Bible’s silence, that’s a logical fallacy. Try again little man.

          • Demopublicrat

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2Timothy 3:16-17 The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT escape you?

            “Care to explain to me how the Bible is any less “man made” than sacred traditions and church teachings?” “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” That not clear enough for you?

            “Which you clearly have misunderstood. It was going along fine for 2000 years before you fundies corrupted it.” The true church existed from the beginning, when the catholic paganistic cult with their philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men wasn’t trying to torture and butcher them all, they had it right. -St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre.

            “Not “un-biblical”. NON-biblical.” ok non-biblical fallacies. The Bible isn’t silent, you have just failed to hear.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable…”

            No argument from me. What I want to know is where that supports Sola Scriptura. It doesn’t. It doesn’t say “scripture is ONLY profitable for…” This is what I mean by you twisting the meaning of the words of the Bible. Very sneaky of you. You don’t like the idea that there are things just as important as the Bible, and no less “man-made” than the Bible, since you get your panties in a bunch over that so often.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” That not clear enough for you?”

            NO. Because once again it isn’t a command for Sola Scriptura. I’ll bet you wish like hell you could stick that word ONLY in there. But you can’t. It’s not there. Meaning that the Bible’s words CAN have co-requisites.

            “The true church existed from the beginning, when the catholic paganistic cult …”

            Oh blah blah blah, again with the anti-Catholic crapola. When you can’t use an actual argument, use hate. That’s how it works, eh?

            “ok non-biblical fallacies. The Bible isn’t silent, you have just failed to hear.”

            You just don’t like the fact that nothing I have said contradicts the Bible. Suck it up princess.

          • Demopublicrat

            How many times are you going to post the same crap?

            Again: Take a hard look at the RCC and it should become obvious, it contradicts scripture constantly. Start with the pope claiming the ability to change God’s law – the Sabbath. Then there is the mystery Babylon “queen of heaven” sacrilege, the graven images, Ishtar, winter solstice celebration, works getting people to heaven, praying for the dead, indulgences, on and on and on. You can’t biblically back one shred of any of that up.

            If any teachings contradict the Bible they are crap, the RCC is full of them.

            “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9 What is that you call the priests again?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You’re saying something on a stupidity level that is through the roof. You’re sitting here with a straight fact trying to convince people that the largest and oldest body of Christians aren’t Christian at all, that they are somehow “pagan” and yet every Catholic church in the world has an ENORMOUS cross with the crucified savior on it. Every single aspect of it centers on Christ and you have the nerve to say no, it’s pagan. There’s only one word for a statement like that, and I’m sorry, but it’s STUPID. Most people learn in kindergarten that Catholics are Christians, it says so in every dictionary, every history book – so what is your excuse? This is the thing with fundies – everything flies in the face of common sense and logic and teachings.

            “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.” Matthew 23:9 What is that you call the priests again?

            Does context mean ANYTHING to you? What do you call your own father then, “mom”? Men are called “father” throughout the New Testament and “father” is used as an honorific throughout as well. It is valid to do so and not a violation of scripture.

            As for the Sabbath, they didn’t change it. Section 2175 of the Catechism states: “Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week”. Sunday is the “Lord’s Day”, the first day of the week, and the day that Christ rose from the dead. You have been lied to by bigoted fundies.

            Yes, the word Easter has been borrowed from Ishtar but just because the same word is used doesn’t mean that the pagan meaning is attached to it any more than worshipping the big yellow ball in the sky on Sunday (Sunday to the pagans).

            Winter solstice celebration – I can’t begin to guess what you’re even talking about here, I was raised Catholic and we had Christmas in our house, as did every Catholic we knew.

            Catholics DON’T believe works get you into heaven, they think it is a combination of works and faith, and that is very true. Faith without works is dead.

            Indulgences – yes, would you like to talk about anything else that took place when the church was a ruling body? This is why we say not to mix church and state these days.

            Bottom line: Don’t hate what you clearly don’t understand.

          • Demopublicrat

            “…oldest body of Christians..” another catholic myth.

            “ENORMOUS cross with the crucified savior on it.” keeping him on the cross, continually trying to crucify him again and again with you cannibalistic ceremonies. He clearly said “it is finished”.
            “… learn in kindergarten…” brainwashed like you obviously are, unable to see the forest for the trees.
            “it says so in every dictionary, every history book” they also say evolution is true science when it is not. Thus concludes an entire paragraph of ad hominem attacks, and appeal to authority (any authority but the Bible) arguments – fail.

            Are you trying to tell me the pope had relations with your mother, that’s why you call him “father”? or if I did take that out of context do enlighten me. I won’t hold my breath.

            “Yes, the word Easter has been borrowed from Ishtar…” More than just the word, the date, the fertility celebration with eggs and rabbits – all of it. Now there is more people celebrating a pagan holiday thanks to the RCC.

            “Winter solstice celebration – I can’t begin to guess what you’re even talking about here…” no surprise here, the actual birth of Christ was probably in September, the December date started by the RCC is actually Saturnalia, Roman pagans first introduced the holiday, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. It also coincides with the pagan winter solstice celebration. The “Christian” custom of “kissing under the mistletoe” is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult. In the 4th century CE, catholocism imported the Saturnalia festival, but keeping their MO, they had to put some Christian context on it so they claimed Jesus’ birthday.

            “Section 2175 of the Catechism states:” Who cares? Tha Sabbath is Saturday per God’s command. Who is the pope to change that? “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:19
            “they think it is a combination of works and faith, and that is very true.” Very false, the passage stating “faith without works is dead” does NOT refer to salvation only that if one claims to believe yet doesn’t act upon it that faith is dead. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” Ephesians 2:8-9 Not lent, not Friday fish, not using vain repetition, not BINGO…

            I seem to know more about the origins of your pagan traditions than you, yet you accuse me of ignorance. I know far more than I have time to post.
            Here’s one more for you: The term “vicar” comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means “instead of.” The pope refers to himself as Vicarius Christi, meaning the vicar of Christ or the replacement of Christ – more heresy.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “…oldest body of Christians..” another catholic myth.”

            No, it’s true, as evidenced by practically any history text you want to look at.

            ” keeping him on the cross, continually trying to crucify him again and
            again with you cannibalistic ceremonies. He clearly said “it is
            finished”.

            That’s CLEARLY not what’s going on, how ridiculous to suggest such a thing when Jesus is the savior.

            “they also say evolution is true science when it is not.”

            Yes I should have guessed you’d be a science denier too. The great thing about evolution though is that it’s true whether you believe it or not. It’s entirely your choice to go through life with hateful blinders on.

            “More than just the word, the date, the fertility celebration with eggs
            and rabbits – all of it. Now there is more people celebrating a pagan
            holiday thanks to the RCC.”

            You’re so out to lunch I don’t even know where to start. Eggs and rabbits were never mentioned in my CATHOLIC church growing up. Jesus’s resurrection, which is what Easter is about, was. Now you’re basically asking me to deny what I’m seeing with my own eyes.

            “The actual birth of Christ was probably in September, the December date started by the RCC is actually Saturnalia.”

            Does the actual date matter? I have celebrated friends’ birthdays on different days when we couldn’t be assembled on the actual date, it made NO difference, why would it be any different with Jesus Christ, as long as you celebrate His birth? And I’ve never even HEARD of Saturnalia – certainly you’d expect the wicked evil Catholic church you hate so much to have at least mentioned it in all the years I went there, but this is a first. So are you then telling me that I’ve been “accidentally” celebrating a holiday I’ve never even heard of when all along I naively thought I was celebrating the birth of Christ? Don’t you know how ridiculous that sounds?

            “Who cares? Tha Sabbath is Saturday per God’s command. Who is the pope to change that?”

            Obviously you didn’t read the link then, because the Pope didn’t change it, neither did the church.

            “I seem to know more about the origins of your pagan traditions than you”

            And that’s a recurring theme with you, and you don’t seem to be at all concerned about the fact that you have been swallowing fundie propaganda whole, which contradicts history, which contradicts science, which contradicts common sense. You should start to ask people what they believe rather than TELL them, you’d look slightly less ridiculous. I’m personally REALLY looking forward to telling my family and friends that a random hateful fundie on the internet told me that I’ve actually been celebrating a holiday called Saturnalia all these years without even knowing it.

          • Demopublicrat

            “No, it’s true, as evidenced by practically any history text you want to look at.” another catholic myth.

            “That’s CLEARLY not what’s going on…” If you say so, or whatever – it’s your eucharist fraud.

            “Eggs and rabbits were never mentioned in my CATHOLIC church growing up.” Yet there they are. They only instituted it, ignoring the actual date in favor of ishtar (or easter depending on the dialect) no need to mention it, the damage is done.

            “Does the actual date matter?” The date is not the point, the point is that it is just another example of the heavily pagan infused catholic church, a point you’re too brainwashed to grasp.

            “Yes I should have guessed you’d be a science denier too.” Now that’s pathetically hilarious, evolution is a religion (another example of the RCC absorbing false doctrine). There is NO scientific proof of it – NONE. Please don’t bore me with bacteria stories, it’s always still bacteria which when left alone reverts back to it’s original state just like Darwin’s finches. I should have guessed you would take the sinful human pope over the Bible, God’s inspired word – a Bible-denier.

            “Obviously you didn’t read the link then, because the Pope didn’t change it, neither did the church.” Who came up with the “Sunday is the Lord’s day” crap? The RCC?
            A reoccurring theme with you is the fact that you like to ignore subjects you have no answer for like graven images, the pope and your mother, the pope being the replacement Christ, etc.
            You can tell your family and friends all the names and insults you’ve used while accusing me of hate.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “No, it’s true, as evidenced by practically any history text you want to look at.” another catholic myth.”

            I’m sorry, are all the history texts throughout time being altered by Catholics? What I can go to any library and look up right now and read with my own eyes is “Catholic myth”?

            “”Eggs and rabbits were never mentioned in my CATHOLIC church growing
            up.” Yet there they are. They only instituted it, ignoring the actual
            date in favor of ishtar (or easter depending on the dialect) no need to
            mention it, the damage is done.”

            That’s a ridiculous charge you’re going to have to work really hard to prove. Again, please leave Chick Publications out, they are considered hate literature.

            “”Does the actual date matter?” The date is not the point, the point is
            that it is just another example of the heavily pagan infused catholic
            church, a point you’re too brainwashed to grasp.”

            A point you haven’t actually PROVEN.

            ” There is NO scientific proof of (evolution) – NONE.”

            Apart from the thousands and thousands of books written on it, apart from the fact that it is real and observed, apart from the consensus across the map – no, no proof. My God. You are nothing less than a conspiracy theorist.

            “Who came up with the “Sunday is the Lord’s day” crap? The RCC?”

            It’s there in print in the Catechism. What more proof do you require?

            “A reoccurring theme with you is the fact that you like to ignore
            subjects you have no answer for like graven images, the pope and your
            mother, the pope being the replacement Christ, etc. You can tell your family and friends all the names and insults you’ve used while accusing me of hate.”

            Haven’t ignored ANYTHING. I’ll meet you head-on for anything you want to throw at me. You’ve shown you don’t understand what a “graven image” is, and that Catholics don’t worship the actual objects. We’ve had this discussion. No one’s ignoring it. People calling priests “father” is entirely contextual and too long to get into here, but it’s such an old and tired and thoroughly debunked charge that I am not beating a dead horse about it anymore. You have yet to tell me what you called your own father – if you called him your father then your entire charge falls to the ground.

            The pope as a REPLACEMENT Christ? Don’t be daft, his title is the Vicar of Christ. He “replaces” nothing, and you need better teachers – fundamentalism is nothing less than brain cancer and I’d put you at about a stage 4.

          • Demopublicrat

            “That’s a ridiculous charge you’re going to have to work really hard to prove.” The name Easter can be traced back to the name “Astarte,” the Syrian sun goddess, known as the “queen of heaven”(sound familiar?) There was also a Teutonic (Germanic) goddess known as “Eostre” (also found as “Eastre,” ” Estre”), who was the goddess of dawn and light, fertility (rabbits and eggs), and Spring. It is from these deities where the name Easter actually originates. The festival in her honor, was held during the vernal equinox. The RCC even kept the name “Easter” The Council of Nicaea in 325, the Church agreed that Easter should be celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon (14 Nisan) after the vernal equinox (not the actual date of the resurrection?). Again, please leave Chick Publications out, they are irrelevant.

            “A point you haven’t actually PROVEN.” The above is but one example, I already covered Christmas. Then there is that “queen of heaven” thing, the graven image thing, and so on, like I said – you can’t see the forest for the trees.

            “Haven’t ignored ANYTHING.” I’m calling BS on that, we’ll look at one: What exactly is the context of Christ’s command “call no man on earth your father…”?

            Your reading comprehension is also very low: “The pope as a REPLACEMENT Christ? Don’t be daft, his title is the Vicar of Christ.” The term “vicar” comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means “instead of.” The pope refers to himself as Vicarius Christi, meaning the vicar of Christ or the replacement of Christ.

            “fundamentalism is nothing less than brain cancer and I’d put you at about a stage 4.” Must be that “hate” you keep yammering on about.

            Now for you other religion, evolutionism, you know the one where you ditch the Bible. “…apart from the fact that it is real and observed…” I’m calling BS on that as well, the “big bang”, speciation, even the spontaneous creation of life from primordial ooze followed by random mutations has never, and never will, be observed. Feel free to regale me with fairytales of science so-called so I can prove to you that evolution is indeed a religion.
            “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools” Romans 1:21-22

          • BeWhoYouAre

            All I see is you working really hard to take very strange conspiracy theories of really dubious origin and trying to pin them on the Catholic Church, who has never in the entire time I was involved with it promoted paganism or anything of the kind. Unless Jesus Christ has suddenly become pagan.

            What kind of Christian are you that doesn’t celebrate Christmas? And when I say Christmas I MEAN Christmas, not Saturnalia. All those nativity scenes and things that you see? That’s about Jesus. I promise. And all the things that DO have a pagan connection (Christmas trees, mistletoe, yule logs) are not necessary to the celebration, and used only because they are pleasant decorations. They have no meaning beyond that.

            “Haven’t ignored ANYTHING.” I’m calling BS on that, we’ll look at one: What exactly is the context of Christ’s command “call no man on earth your father…”?”

            I’m tired ot beating this dead horse with you. Here’s a direct link to the answer: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/call-no-man-father

            “The term “vicar” comes from the Latin word vicarius, which means “instead of.” The pope refers to himself as Vicarius Christi, meaning the vicar of Christ or the replacement of Christ.”

            Clearly you have no concept of a vicar in a church then, who acts as an assistant to the priest or minister. There is no reason to replace Christ and that is not what is happening with the Pope, who doesn’t TRY to replace Christ.

            “Now for you other religion, evolutionism, you know the one where you ditch the Bible.”

            I don’t ditch the Bible, stop putting words in my mouth.

            As for your pathetic understanding of evolution, which is to say your NON-understanding of it, it doesn’t matter that you don’t believe it. It will continue as before and all the scientists of the world will continue to support it.

          • Demopublicrat

            Historical record is “conspiracy theory”? How about your blatant denial. “The Council of Nicaea in 325, the Church agreed that Easter should be celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon (14 Nisan) after the vernal equinox…” is from the vatican, or is that some kind of anti-Catholic propaganda (talk about conspiracy theory). It’s not the Bible that is pagan, it’s the RCC which rules out “Unless Jesus Christ has suddenly become pagan.”

            So if the RCC slaps a Christian sounding event name on a pagan holiday, that’s ok, like I said, bovine feces by any other name…

            “I’m tired of beating this dead horse with you.” – Translation: “I’ve got nothing so I’ll throw out some lame catholic mumbo jumbo instead of a scripture reference which I don’t have” “In fact, to forbid it would rob the address ‘Father’ of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood.” So what, Christ didn’t know what he was talking about? More catholic heresy.

            “Clearly you have no concept of a vicar in a church then, who acts as an assistant to the priest or minister.” Clearly you are trying to feed me some catholic BS when the meaning is crystal clear. “The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land . . . He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords”–La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871. Yeah, no concept, whatever.

            “I don’t ditch the Bible, stop putting words in my mouth.”

            The Bible: God created in six days.

            Your religion: A dot exploded followed by billions of years of random chance and *POOF* here we are. Like I said “ditch the Bible”.

            “As for your pathetic understanding of evolution, which is to say your NON-understanding of it, it doesn’t matter that you don’t believe it. It will continue as before and all the scientists of the world will continue to support it.” Appeal to authority arguments and ad hominem attacks no matter how many times they are tried STILL DO NOT PROVE your evolutionism religion. It is not, and will never be, science – it is a belief system (religion) period. If you had even the slightest clue about it yourself you would have posted some proof, or you would also know it is a religion. Another example of the pagaistic catholic dogma.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Historical record is “conspiracy theory?”

            But you haven’t provided historical record, you’ve provided baseless fundie bullshit.

            “So if the RCC slaps a Christian sounding event name on a pagan holiday, that’s ok, like I said, bovine feces by any other name…”

            But that isn’t what happened, the Catholics did no such thing and you cannot prove it. What you’ve stated is actually baseless fundie bullshit.

            “Translation: “I’ve got nothing so I’ll throw out some lame catholic mumbo jumbo instead of a scripture reference which I don’t have”

            You’ve been told over and over that I don’t play the silly Sola Scriptura game, isn’t it time you stopped insisting that I do? You were given a source direct from the horse’s mouth, so to speak, catholic.com explaining it word for word. But of course you’re going to tell me I’ve given you nothing. I say black, so you say white. Even though it’s valid in every respect and I have dodged nothing.

            “Yeah, no concept, whatever.”

            Your words, not mine.

            “Your religion: A dot exploded followed by billions of years of random chance and *POOF* here we are. Like I said “ditch the Bible”.

            The Bible is using allegory. And you’ve once again completely misrepresented my belief. I don’t believe a dot exploded, never believed that, never SAID I believed that, and here you are telling me (again, NEVER asking, always telling) what I “believe”.

            Evolution has been proven. It occurs. You lose. This has nothing to do with Catholicism, it has to do with your tenuous hold on reality which is slipping further and further into the realm of conspiracy theory all the time. Get over it.

          • Demopublicrat

            “But you haven’t provided historical record, you’ve provided baseless fundie bullshit.” Pull your head out of the pope’s rear and look, I said most of that is from the vatican website use your fingers and the internet.

            “But that isn’t what happened, the Catholics did no such thing and you cannot prove it. What you’ve stated is actually baseless fundie bullshit.” Deny, deny, deny, Then do tell me what the significance of Dec. 25th really is as shepherds aren’t out tending their flocks in December so that rules out the birth of Christ.

            “I don’t play the silly Sola Scriptura game,” So catholics don’t use the scriptures at all – Christian, yeah right, the JWs and Mormons even use it to some degree. You stick to your vain traditions of sinful men, as for me scripture (which contains all we need) works for me.
            “Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-6
            “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.” Deuteronomy 12:32
            catholic.com has all the credibility of bull dung. ” I say black, so you say white.” Correction, the Bible says white, I go by that.

            “The Bible is using allegory” More bead-mumbler lies, The Bible says 6 days and on the seventh God rested – hence the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not last 66 million years, God created us in his image, not some primordial ooze.

            “Evolution has been proven. It occurs. You lose. This has nothing to do with Catholicism” BS on all counts, evolution never will be proven, speciation never has and never will occur, discarding and twisting scripture is a catholic staple.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            ” Pull your head out of the pope’s rear and look, I said most of that is from the vatican website use your fingers and the internet.”

            I did. And you totally don’t get it. It’s like you read in one language and understand in another. This has nothing to do with the pope or his posterior. This is you NOT GETTING IT.

            “Then do tell me what the significance of Dec. 25th really is as
            shepherds aren’t out tending their flocks in December so that rules out the birth of Christ.”

            It’s the day someone has chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ. Period. End of story. Tell me why that’s bad.

            “So catholics don’t use the scriptures at all – Christian, yeah right, the JWs and Mormons even use it to some degree. You stick to your vain traditions of sinful men, as for me scripture (which contains all we need) works for me.”

            I never said Catholics don’t use it. Never. Not even once. But since you keep repeating that I DID say it when I didn’t leads me to believe that you’ve got a mental problem. For the last frigging time: IT IS USED IN COMBINATION WITH CHURCH TEACHINGS AND SACRED TRADITIONS. What part of that is SO hard for you to understand?

            “”Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-6

            No one has added to his words.

            “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.” Deuteronomy 12:32″

            No one has added to it or taken from it.

            “More bead-mumbler lies, The Bible says 6 days and on the seventh God rested – hence the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not last 66 million years, God created us in his image, not some primordial ooze.”

            Noah’s flood is a physical impossibility. A talking snake or donkey is a physical impossibility. For God to create the earth in 6 days is a patent absurdity. Don’t blame the Catholics for that. Blame your own inability to use reason, logic and science, which the so-called “bead-mumblers” at least comprehend. Explain to me how a snake can talk without a voice box or vocal cords. Or a donkey can. Don’t you realize that if you said these things in public you’d be locked up for your own protection and the protection of everyone around you? it is INSANE is what it is.

            “BS on all counts, evolution never will be proven, speciation never has and never will occur, discarding and twisting scripture is a catholic staple.”

            I’m not even arguing about that one. You lose. The war’s over and you haven’t figured it out yet.

          • Demopublicrat

            *sigh* your the one clearly not getting it, you are so emotionally invested in your “savior” the pope, that you can’t even see what is right in front of you. The pope could come out and say “mary told me everyone needs to shove a zucchini into their rear-ends.” All the good catholics would then rush out to the produce stands, insert their vegetables and create a website with flowery BS as to why this is actually supported by God himself.

            The RCC just randomly picked the wrong date purposely, it was just a coincidence that it coincided with a pagan holiday, and a coincidence that many of the pagan practices came with it, and you expect me to believe that crap? What do you think I’m a naive catholic?

            “I never said Catholics don’t use it.” You didn’t have to, it’s plain to see in post after post after post. “For the last frigging time: IT IS USED IN COMBINATION WITH CHURCH TEACHINGS AND SACRED TRADITIONS.” Little tiny bits (the cherry picked ones that suit) in combination with man-made sacrilegious church teachings and useless man-made/pagan traditions (which don’t even hold the value of a good roll of bath tissue) – but nobody is adding to scripture (Apocrypha).

            “Noah’s flood is a physical impossibility. A talking snake or donkey is a physical impossibility. For God to create the earth in 6 days is a patent absurdity. Don’t blame the Catholics for that.” Don’t blame catholics for that? they are the ones saying those things, they sure as hell deserve the blame. Here’s a reminder: don’t confuse the pope with God, the pope obviously couldn’t pull that off. But let’s clarify, if those things are an impossibility then the virgin birth, water to wine, healing of sick, walking on water, raising people from the dead, and Jesus himself raising from the dead must all be “patent absurdities” as well. However the exploding dot (don’t forget the pope included that), rain on a rock 4.6 billion years ago turned into ooze which spontaneously created life which randomly became the complexity we see today DESPITE the second law of thermodynamics which basically states “everything gravitates toward disorder” and the fact that nobody observed any of this, nor could they duplicate it, nor is there any evidence of it – that’s scientific fact somehow.
            “The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that ‘a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein’.”
            Sir Fred Hoyle (English astronomer, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University), as quoted in “Hoyle on Evolution”. Nature, vol. 294, 12 Nov. 1981, p. 105 Evolution is a religion, I’ve done this with a biology professor and at the end he did what you are doing, called me names and told me popular opinion somehow creates fact.

            “The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.”
            Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), “Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?” Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p. 127

            “Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.”
            Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University), “Paleoecology and uniformitarianism”. Compass, vol. 45, May 1968, p. 216

            You mary-worshipers don’t even believe in the God of the Bible yet have the audacity to call yourselves Christian?

            “I’m not even arguing about that one.” What’s the matter, got nothing? If the “war” is over it’s because YOU surrendered.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            *sigh* your the one clearly not getting it, you are so emotionally invested in your “savior” the pope” >snipsnip<

            Hateful pointless baseless fundie bullshit words.

            "Don't blame catholics for that? they are the ones saying those things, they sure as hell deserve the blame."

            What are you TALKING about? Catholics are not Bible literalists! They don't even fight evolution like you do! They're FAR more progressive.

            "Let's clarify, if those things are an impossibility then the virgin
            birth, water to wine, healing of sick, walking on water, raising people
            from the dead, and Jesus himself raising from the dead must all be
            "patent absurdities" as well."

            Why? These things are the basis of Christianity. Talking snakes are not.

            "You mary-worshipers don't even believe in the God of the Bible yet have the audacity to call yourselves Christian?"

            Hateful lies and fundie bullshit, we don't worship Mary and never have. Keep beating the living hell out of that strawman. I don't know what you're fighting but it's NOT Catholicism.

          • Demopublicrat

            “I haven’t even been Catholic in years and years.” Yet claim to know more and defend it.

            “hate-filled” – “fundie” Don’t make me laugh, you seem to spew more than your share.

            “The RCC just randomly picked the wrong date purposely”
            “Baseless, hate-filled fundie bullshit. Proof please.” – the proof is in the non-answer, I have already stated that shepherds are not out tending their sheep in December, so that rules out the 25th as the actual date, so what is the reason for the 25th other than the pagan holiday? I won’t hold my breath for the answer you don’t have.

            “Little tiny bits (the cherry picked ones that suit) in combination with man-made sacrilegious church teachings and useless man-made/pagan traditions” >snip<
            "Hateful pointless baseless fundie bullshit words." Proof please.

            "What are you TALKING about? Catholics are not Bible literalists!" Exactly, their picking and choosing to suit their agenda is painfully obvious.

            "They don't even fight evolution like you do! They're FAR more progressive." You say that like it's a good thing.

            "These things are the basis of Christianity." But the Bible as a whole is not right? You still didn't tell me why one should believe some of the Bible, but not all. As far as the "talking snake", that lead to the fall of man, but that's not any part of the basis of Christianity now is it? Neither is the flood I suppose. Nice job of putting limitations on God, you clearly have no clue as to who he is.

            "we don't worship Mary and never have" Ok bowing to her graven image, putting crowns on its head, laying gifts at the feet, praying to it, kissing it, people flocking by the thousands to bow down by the place some nut-job claimed to have seen her appear in an ice-cream cone, building shrines to her, putting her on par with Christ, that's not worship, I don't know what is, but that's not – or whatever. People pray TO God, and FOR each other, but mary isn't deified. There is zero mention in the Bible by Jesus or anyone else of mary having any relevance what-so-ever to salvation, or Christians doing any of the things I listed above, but let 'er rip.
            Why don't you explain why your so-called "sacred traditions" are of any more value than the mormon's.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Yet claim to know more and defend it.”

            I “defend” it against bigotry and stupidity, the likes of which you have been spouting. Doesn’t mean I have to be a member of it anymore.

            “the proof is in the non-answer, I have already stated that shepherds are
            not out tending their sheep in December, so that rules out the 25th as
            the actual date, so what is the reason for the 25th other than the pagan
            holiday?”

            You’ve already been told MORE than once that the actual date doesn’t matter, and if you think it does, then you need to say WHY it does. If one day of the year is chosen to celebrate the birth of Christ, and people DO celebrate it, why is that a bad thing?

            “Proof please.”

            No problem: “Little tiny bits (the cherry picked ones that suit) in combination with
            man-made sacrilegious church teachings and useless man-made/pagan
            traditions”. Will that do?

            “Exactly, their picking and choosing to suit their agenda is painfully obvious.”

            No, it just means that when something physically impossible is mentioned in the Bible, they have the good sense to know that something is allegorical, unlike yourself.

            “You say that like it’s a good thing.” It is. It means they are grounded in reality and are reasonable and know that they can always learn more.

            “But the Bible as a whole is not right? You still didn’t tell me why one
            should believe some of the Bible, but not all. As far as the “talking
            snake”, that lead to the fall of man, but that’s not any part of the
            basis of Christianity now is it? Neither is the flood I suppose. Nice
            job of putting limitations on God, you clearly have no clue as to who he
            is.”

            Because YOU CAN’T HAVE A TALKING SNAKE. The snake represents something, it is figurative and not literal. That’s how. It has nothing to do with limitations being put on the Bible, it’s understanding how to read it properly.

            “Ok bowing to her graven image, putting crowns on its head, laying gifts
            at the feet, praying to it, kissing it, people flocking by the thousands
            to bow down by the place some nut-job claimed to have seen her appear
            in an ice-cream cone, building shrines to her, putting her on par with
            Christ, that’s not worship, I don’t know what is, but that’s not – or
            whatever.”

            And with all that, you seem completely incapable of asking them what they are doing. You are quite content to sit in your ivory tower and guess and condemn and judge. Really Christian of you.

          • Demopublicrat

            “I ‘defend’ it against bigotry and stupidity, the likes of which you have been spouting. Doesn’t mean I have to be a member of it anymore.” Then you must not believe in it anymore as you would know what the church says about that. Do tell me when the Bible contains all we need, why I should take any stock what-so-ever in any of the church “teachings” or “sacred” rituals.

            Speaking of stupidity, why wouldn’t you celebrate an event on the actual date it happened, why would you choose a date that “accidently” coincides with a pagan holiday – and do it more than once? To a discerning eye, that demonstrates a pattern, one to great to ignore.

            “Will that do?” Nope, you haven’t shown them to be baseless, hateful, or pointless.

            “The snake represents something, it is figurative and not literal.” Do post the passage that states that or should I just take your word for it. That’s allegory but eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood is literal? After all He cut off a slab from his arm and tapped a vein that night, right?

            “And with all that, you seem completely incapable of asking them what they are doing.” When I see a dog hunched over dropping a pile on my lawn, there is no need to ask what it is doing, it is painfully obvious, just as obvious as the mary worship.

            “You are quite content to sit in your ivory tower and guess and condemn and judge. Really Christian of you.” Back atcha.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Do tell me when the Bible contains all we need, why I should take any stock what-so-ever in any of the church “teachings” or “sacred” rituals.”

            Do tell me where you got the authority to throw those things out when it was part of the cornerstone of Christianity from pretty much the beginning. And where on earth did you get the idea that the Bible was “all you need”? If all you followed was the Bible you’d be killing and stoning people.

            “why wouldn’t you celebrate an event on the actual date it happened”

            Because the date is unimportant and the reason for the celebration is what matters.

            “Nope, you haven’t shown them to be baseless, hateful, or pointless.”

            They are frivolous attacks on the Catholic church which have zero basis in fact.

            “That’s allegory but eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood is literal? After all He cut off a slab from his arm and tapped a vein that night, right?”

            If that’s your understanding of transubstantiation you have bigger troubles than I can begin to understand.

            “When I see a dog hunched over dropping a pile on my lawn, there is no need to ask what it is doing, it is painfully obvious, just as obvious as the mary worship”

            You’re basically talking here the same substance the dog in your example is doing. Find me a single Catholic that turns to Mary for salvation. And by the way, that means ASKING MARY FOR SALVATION, not honoring a likeness of her in the form of a statue.

          • Demopublicrat

            “Do tell me where you got the authority to throw those things out when it was part of the cornerstone of Christianity from pretty much the beginning.” Ahhh… no it would have been in the Bible then, not a Constantine add-on. The Mormons claim theirs was from the beginning as well, try again.

            “And where on earth did you get the idea that the Bible was ‘all you need’?” As stated in the Bible, we went over this.

            “If all you followed was the Bible you’d be killing and stoning people.” Ahhh… no, that was commanded by God in certain instances prior to Christ dying for sin.

            “Because the date is unimportant and the reason for the celebration is what matters.” Nonsensical answer not taking into account the corresponding pagan celebrations that just happen to be on the same date – in repeated instances.

            “They are frivolous attacks on the Catholic church which have zero basis in fact.” Your opinion with zero basis in fact.

            “If that’s your understanding of transubstantiation you have bigger troubles than I can begin to understand.” Another non-answer, instead of telling me what I am missing, you simply state I have “bigger troubles”.
            “Find me a single Catholic that turns to Mary for salvation.” Does the pope count?
            “All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.” Pope Benedict XV
            Paul VI, Christi Matri. “The Church … been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary … For as St. Irenaeus says, she ‘has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race”
            John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, “In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”

            “… honoring a likeness of her in the form of a statue.” You mean bowing to a graven image? Idolatry plain and simple.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Ahhh… no it would have been in the Bible then, not a Constantine add-on. The Mormons claim theirs was from the beginning as well, try again.”

            The word “Bible” isn’t in the Bible either. So much for THAT bizarre logic. And everything else on this subject you quote liberally from Fundie 101 but never provide a single ounce of proof, very conveniently.

            “And where on earth did you get the idea that the Bible was ‘all you need’?” As stated in the Bible, we went over this”

            Nope. Sola Scriptura is NOT in the Bible. Look all you want, you won’t find it.

            “Ahhh… no, that was commanded by God in certain instances prior to Christ dying for sin.”

            So you apply the rules when it’s convenient for you then. Just like you forgive the consumption of shellfish and the mixing of textiles now, but keep “sexual sins” in your list of pet peeves because you want to. No other reason.

            “Nonsensical answer not taking into account the corresponding pagan celebrations that just happen to be on the same date – in repeated instances.”

            If my point is that the date doesn’t matter, which it is, then a “pagan” date would be just as irrelevant as any other date, so you’ve got your head up your butt again. It’s a well-known fact that different religions, Christianity included, would use the dates of the festivals of other religions to convert them. Maybe THAT is what happened here.

            “Your opinion with zero basis in fact”

            It’s on YOU to provide proof, not me, you’re the one making the outlandish and ridiculous statements and giving no proof apart from Well The Fundies Told Me So.

            “Another non-answer, instead of telling me what I am missing, you simply state I have “bigger troubles”

            No, I gave you a perfectly legitimate answer, pointing out that transubstantiation does not involve chewing limbs and drinking actual blood. It isn’t my fault if my responses go sailing over your head. I have met every one of your ridiculous charges head-on.

            “”Find me a single Catholic that turns to Mary for salvation.” Does the pope count?”

            Not unless you can quote something he actually said, no. And quotes about Mary interceding are not quotes about Mary giving salvation. You simply don’t understand that Mary is beseeched to intercede for those to pray to her. It’s no different than you asking a family member or friend to pray for you. You aren’t asking the family member or friend to save you.

            ” You mean bowing to a graven image? Idolatry plain and simple.”
            Simple if you’re a simpleton. Statues and images are decorations and reminders, no one asks an inanimate object for salvation, and no one’s done so for thousands of years. And that includes Catholics. If someone bows to a statue they are honoring what the statue represents. I mean, two-year olds can figure this out, I don’t know why you can’t.

          • Demopublicrat

            “The word “Bible” isn’t in the Bible either.” Yet another question dodged, again why should anyone give a crap about the RCC’s ceremonial hocus pocus?

            “Nope. Sola Scriptura is NOT in the Bible. Look all you want, you won’t find it.” *sigh* “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, THROUGHLY furnished unto ALL good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-6 I’m quite sure that doesn’t just refer to adding things like the apocrypha, but to any other mumbo jumbo like the RCC does.

            “because you want to. No other reason.” Try reading the scriptures once, starting with the gospels, then the letters from Paul.

            “It’s a well-known fact that different religions, Christianity included, would use the dates of the festivals of other religions to convert them.” Now you’re confusing catholics with Christians again, and I am quite sure adding the pagan holidays as a permanent part of the church qualifies as “using the dates of the festivals of other religions to convert them.” If anything the RCC has kept those pagan practices alive and celebrated.

            “It’s on YOU to provide proof, not me…” So every time you state a far-fetched opinion, it’s up to me to prove it? Your avoidance is reaching new lows.

            “No, I gave you a perfectly legitimate answer…” Another non-answer, instead of telling me what I am missing, you simply state “I gave you a perfectly legitimate answer” Do tell what it is then if not magically transforming bread and wine to flesh and blood.

            “Not unless you can quote something he actually said…” More denial even after giving references (unlike you with ANY of your claims). “And quotes about Mary interceding are not quotes about Mary giving salvation.”

            -“All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.” Pope Benedict XV
            Saved = salvation
            “she ‘has become the CAUSE OF SALVATION for the whole human race” Giving salvation

            Now how about a scripture verse stating mary has any relevance to salvation, or that we are to pray to her, or that she intercedes, or that she even hears any of us, or that we should even give her two thoughts for that matter – apart from Well the bead-mumbling pagan pope told me so.

            “You simply don’t understand that Mary is beseeched to intercede for those to pray TO her. It’s no different than you asking a family member or friend to pray FOR you.” You just stated the difference, we pray TO God, and we pray FOR each other – mary is not God, nor does it say once in the entire scripture that mary and our prayer even exist together – more mary-worshiper fallacy.

            “no one asks an inanimate object for salvation, and no one’s done so for thousands of years.” Do you actually think anyone worshiped the piece of stone or wood that they fashioned into a graven image? No they were worshipping, honoring, and bowing to what the object represented, the graven images were decorations and reminders of their false gods, EXACTLY like the graven mary images (complete with the blasphemous crown on the head), I mean, two-year olds can figure this out, I don’t know why you can’t. It is a blatant defiance of God’s own commandment.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Yet another question dodged, again why should anyone give a crap about the RCC’s ceremonial hocus pocus?”

            Do you know what “dodge” means? It means to avoid the question. I haven’t avoided a single thing. Not once. This is about YOU throwing things out like church teachings and traditions and you haven’t said who gave you the authority. This isn’t ME dodging something, it’s YOU dodging something. So answer this time if you please, and stop tossing out random unrelated insults to Catholics that are irrelevant to the matter at hand.

            “*sigh* “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, THROUGHLY furnished unto ALL good works.” 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” Proverbs 30:5-”

            As has been pointed out several times, that does NOT say to discount traditions and teachings. It does NOT. I’m looking at the words right now. Scanning them. Processing them. Doing it again. And again. And again. All it says is that scripture is perfect. It doesn’t say it’s all you require. You are a liar and you are an incompetent if you try to say otherwise.

            “Try reading the scriptures once, starting with the gospels, then the letters from Paul.” I have. Probably more times than you have.

            ” Now you’re confusing catholics with Christians again, and I am quite sure adding the pagan holidays as a permanent part of the church qualifies as “using the dates of the festivals of other religions to convert them.” If anything the RCC has kept those pagan practices alive and celebrated.”

            Catholics, not just Christians but the original Christians, were the only Christians (apart from the Orthodox) in those days. You don’t get to separate them. There were no fundies in those days. Holidays were stolen from one another and the Christians were no exception. Source: history books.

            “So every time you state a far-fetched opinion, it’s up to me to prove it? Your avoidance is reaching new lows.”

            You turned that one around didn’t you? You sit here throwing out the most insane and ridiculous charges against a church you have not studied and clearly do not understand and you’re telling me I’m avoiding them. If you make a ridiculous statement and provide no proof for it then all it is is a ridiculous statement. If you say the Pope rides a pink elephant I’m not just going to believe it because some fundie twit tells me so.

            “Another non-answer, instead of telling me what I am missing, you simply state “I gave you a perfectly legitimate answer” Do tell what it is then if not magically transforming bread and wine to flesh and blood.”

            It IS basically transforming bread and wine to flesh and blood. But it’s got nothing to do with the blood and guts you stated in your original ridiculous answer.

            “More denial even after giving references (unlike you with ANY of your claims).

            Again, no denial, and no avoidance, just more examples of you not understanding simple and basic English. No one’s worshipping Mary in those quotes, but giving her simple respect and requesting her intercession.

            “”she ‘has become the CAUSE OF SALVATION for the whole human race” Giving salvation”

            Wrong.

            “Now how about a scripture verse stating mary has any relevance to salvation, or that we are to pray to her, or that she intercedes, or that she even hears any of us, or that we should even give her two thoughts for that matter – apart from Well the bead-mumbling pagan pope told me so.”

            She doesn’t have relevance to salvation, she asks on our behalf. I don’t see why we shouldn’t pray to her (through her would be a better word to use). She’s very much alive in heaven and is the perfect intercessor. Do you see anything that says we should NOT? And the pope is neither pagan nor a “bead mumbler” whatever that is – hateful bullshit from an uninformed fundie.

            “You just stated the difference, we pray TO God, and we pray FOR each other – mary is not God, nor does it say once in the entire scripture that mary and our prayer even exist together – more mary-worshiper fallacy.”

            Mary is not God. It does not say our prayer and Mary exist together. But you’re using the argument from silence logical fallacy again, you CANNOT use the Bible’s silence on a subject to make it mean what you want it to. And you might very well be ignoring a perfectly valid church teaching that you know nothing about, which you haven’t even considered.

            ” No they were worshipping, honoring, and bowing to what the object represented, the graven images were decorations and reminders of their false gods”
            I think it’s pretty bloody obvious that a statue of Jesus represents Jesus Christ, and if you’re going to pray in front of it you’re being put in mind of Jesus and communicating directly with Him, but then again I do understand simple basic things and accept what people tell me they’re doing when I ask them rather than accuse them of things I don’t comprehend, as you are doing.

          • Demopublicrat

            “Do you know what “dodge” means? It means to avoid the question.” Questions like : Why should anyone put any stock in catholic teachings and traditions? Or What is the context exactly for “call no man your father…”? – The ones you dodge.

            “As has been pointed out several times, that does NOT say to discount traditions and teachings. It does NOT.” So I can make some crap up and have people follow it? Do you follow Mormon teachings? JW? Islam? – they use part of the OT.
            “It doesn’t say it’s all you require. You are a liar and you are an incompetent if you try to say otherwise.” What do “thoroughly” and “all” mean? How does a man become “perfect” with incomplete instruction? The Bible must be lying then.

            “I have. Probably more times than you have.” That’s why you quote it so often to defend your cult.

            “There were no fundies in those days.” That’s all there were in the beginning until Simon Magus and Constantine came up with the catholic church.

            “It IS basically transforming bread and wine to flesh and blood.” “…transubstantiation does not involve chewing limbs and drinking actual blood.” But somehow I don’t understand, whatever. If I take some from the priest to a lab, what will the lab tell me it is? I’m thinking it will still be bread and wine which makes transubstantiation a fraud and a lie.

            “Wrong.”
            “cause noun ˈkȯz
            : something or someone that produces an effect, result, or condition : something or someone that makes something happen or exist.” So the direct quote could read: “she ‘has become the someone that produces SALVATION for the whole human race” I don’t think it is me that can’t understand rudimentary English, mary-worshiper.

            “you CANNOT use the Bible’s silence on a subject to make it mean what you want it to.” Only catholics can do that? “And you might very well be ignoring a perfectly valid church teaching…” According to whom? On what authority?

            I think it’s pretty bloody obvious that a statue of Jesus is a graven image.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            ” It means to avoid the question.” Questions like : Why should anyone put any stock in catholic teachings and traditions? Or What is the context exactly for “call no man your father…”? – The ones you dodge.”

            No, I answered those. The “call no man father” thing was a matter of you not understanding context, and Catholic teachings and traditions are as old as the Bible itself.

            “So I can make some crap up and have people follow it? Do you follow Mormon teachings? JW? Islam? – they use part of the OT.”

            Sacred traditions and church teachings are no more “made up” than the Bible itself, so I don’t know what you’re talking about. All those words you keep quoting say is that the words of the Bible are perfect. But they don’t say they are all that is required. And you keep trying to make it say that.

            “What do “thoroughly” and “all” mean? How does a man become “perfect” with incomplete instruction? The Bible must be lying then.”

            OK, I’ll play your game. Here’s your quote: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY furnished unto ALL good works.” And here’s the NIV translation too: “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” It talks about the scripture helping to make the servant “perfect, thoroughly furnished for every good work”. BUT IT DOESN’T SAY THE SCRIPTURE IS ALL YOU NEED. ANYWHERE. Your key words “thoroughly,” “perfect”, and “all” refer to the desired state to be in for “every good work,” fine. No argument from me. But it DOESN’T say that the words are exclusively what you need to be IN that state. There is a gap between the word “righteousness” and the word “that” in your quote that you’re trying to fill in with sola scriptura. It doesn’t work.

            “That’s why you quote it so often to defend your cult.”

            In my church there are scripture readings, hymns, creeds, prayers and meditations. In yours, people join hands, yell, fall down on the ground babbling in “tongues”, wave snakes around and do “altar calls.” Gee, which one’s the cult?

            “That’s all there were in the beginning until Simon Magus and Constantine came up with the catholic church.”

            I think you’re forgetting about Peter. And about apostolic succession. Your dates are severely out of whack. There were no fundies for the first couple of thousand years of Christianity, and even now they are a small (albeit angry and loud) cult.

            “If I take some from the priest to a lab, what will the lab tell me it
            is? I’m thinking it will still be bread and wine which makes
            transubstantiation a fraud and a lie.”

            You fundies are so irritatingly literal about everything, whether it’s a talking snake or blood turning into wine. It is a spiritual transformation. If you don’t understand that, as you don’t understand so many other things about Catholicism, take it up with your local priest.

            “I don’t think it is me that can’t understand rudimentary English, mary-worshiper.”

            Calling me “mary-worshiper” doesn’t make it true, just as calling the Catholic church which has existed from the beginning a “cult” isn’t true. You are lying, and lying for Jesus is still lying and you’re the one who will have to answer to God for trash talking the mother of Jesus.

            “According to whom? On what authority?”

            So now I have to explain logical fallacies to you? Look, let’s suppose some fundie says “Where in the Bible does it say you should baptize infants?” The fundie in question is saying that because there’s no scripture that specifically singles out infants, it therefore must be a BAD THING to do it. When the Bible doesn’t say it’s bad thing either. It says nothing (apart from the conveniently-ignored scripture about entire familiies being baptized…) That is an argument from silence. The fundie has tried to hoodwink people with his question, saying that because the Bible is silent, you shouldn’t do it. And this is what YOU just did when you said “nor does it say once in the entire scripture that mary and our prayer even exist together.” You are being dishonest and manipulating scripture to your own purposes.

            Here:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

            “I think it’s pretty bloody obvious that a statue of Jesus is a graven image.”

            Yeah, well you think evolution is a fairy tale too. So it’s not surprising you’d leap at this completely ridiculous charge. Why do you think a Catholic or any other human being in this day and age WOULD worship a rock? Just to be disobedient to God? Or do you ACTUALLY think Catholics think God is a piece of rock or stone? If you do, you really should get your butt into a psychiatrist’s office.

          • Demopublicrat

            What is the context exactly for “call no man your father…”? “No, I answered those. The “call no man father” thing was a matter of you not understanding context” Read this over and then tell me you’re not dodging.

            “Catholic teachings and traditions are as old as the Bible itself.” LOL “proof please”. Paganism is as old as the Bible itself – that explains a lot.

            “Sacred traditions and church teachings are no more “made up” than the Bible itself” Proof please, the Bible is inspired by God and will never be proven wrong, vain catholic traditions of men are another story. “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:8-9

            “BUT IT DOESN’T SAY THE SCRIPTURE IS ALL YOU NEED. ANYWHERE.” The Bible just states in multiple places not to add to the scriptures.
            “In my church there are scripture readings, hymns, creeds, prayers and meditations.” You forgot mary worship, vain repetitions and traditions of man along with some kind of paganistic “spiritual” cannibalism.
            “In yours, people join hands, yell, fall down on the ground babbling in “tongues”, wave snakes around and do “altar calls.” Nope.

            “If you don’t understand that, as you don’t understand so many other things about Catholicism, take it up with your local priest.” Then I’ll get the same non-answers denial, and run-around that you spew. You can’t even admit to blasphemy when it is right in front of you face in plain black and white.

            [More dodging] “So now I have to explain logical fallacies to you?” Explain how an infant can repent and believe? “Then said Paul, John truly baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying to the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” Acts 19:4
            “Then Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”Acts 2:38 Also the Bible doesn’t state one can’t take a leak in the “holy” water – it doesn’t even mention “holy” water – so that must be ok too. Funny how the only thing you can quote to back up anything you dribble is from “Wikipedia”, the site anyone can change.

            “So it’s not surprising you’d leap at this completely ridiculous charge. Why do you think a Catholic or any other human being in this day and age WOULD worship a rock?” Why do you think any other human being in ANY age would worship a rock? Do enlighten me as to exactly what a graven image is, try not to dodge this one, idolater.

            “Yeah, well you think evolution is a fairy tale too.” I don’t think it is, I KNOW it is. If you believe that religion is true – proof please, not just telling me there is some or posting some wikilame link, show me the proof.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Read this over and then tell me you’re not dodging.”

            I provided a link directly to a Catholic source explaining it, I told you you lacked context to simply throw out a statement like that, I’ve done everything for you except tie your bloody shoes. This is not dodging. This is meeting you squarely in the face with factual information from the source. This is the OPPOSITE of dodging. You want a nice, clean one-sentence soundbite answer from me that it is not possible to give, given the factors involved. Too bad. I can’t break everything down into Fundie for you. You have to do your own work.

            “LOL “proof please”. Paganism is as old as the Bible itself – that explains a lot.”

            So if I give you a nice, pat source – not difficult to do, by the way – you’re going to say it’s pagan. That is something YOU need to prove, not me. If you make a claim that something old is pagan then you have the burden of proof. Not me.

            “Proof please, the Bible is inspired by God and will never be proven wrong, vain catholic traditions of men are another story.”

            Proof please. You are the one making the outlandish, ridiculous statements about the Catholic church you know nothing about. Also, you DO realize the Bible is also a “tradition of men”, right? As it was written by men?

            “The Bible just states in multiple places not to add to the scriptures.”

            And no one did. This is not a matter of “adding” anything – this is a matter of something coexisting that you don’t want to acknowledge is even there.

            “You forgot mary worship, vain repetitions and traditions of man along with some kind of paganistic “spiritual” cannibalism.”

            Nope. No vain repetitions, no Mary worship, no cannibalism.

            “In yours, people join hands, yell, fall down on the ground babbling in
            “tongues”, wave snakes around and do “altar calls.” Nope.”

            Yep. You want pictures?

            “Then I’ll get the same non-answers denial, and run-around that you spew.
            You can’t even admit to blasphemy when it is right in front of you face
            in plain black and white.”

            Your problem is that when you’re confronted with the truth, you don’t like it and run away with your fingers in your ears saying you didn’t get an answer or that I’m “dodging.”

            “Explain how an infant can repent and believe?”

            That’s not what it’s about. It’s not about ACTUAL sin, it’s about ORIGINAL sin, which we are ALL born with. You know, Eve eating the apple and all that? THAT is why we baptize. Along with Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, and practically everyone else.

            “Funny how the only thing you can quote to back up anything you dribble is from “Wikipedia”, the site anyone can change.”

            Ever tried to change it? If you posted something questionable you’d be called out for proof, and as you’ve been so pathetic at it here, I can only guess you’d get your butt handed to you if you tried the same thing there.

            “Why do you think any other human being in ANY age would worship a rock?
            Do enlighten me as to exactly what a graven image is, try not to dodge
            this one, idolater.”

            Once again, THAT IS NOT WHAT’S GOING ON, and it doesn’t matter how many people who are doing it tell you that, you’re going to believe what you like. Your fundamentalist mentality is basically brain cancer – you’re told by someone what they believe and you tell them they’re wrong. You’re confronted with proof, you run away not listening. You are impervious to logic and reason, you believe what your fundie pastor says and airily throw everything else out. I mean no WONDER fundies are so universally ridiculed and despised.

            “I don’t think it is, I KNOW it is. If you believe that religion is true
            – proof please, not just telling me there is some or posting some
            wikilame link, show me the proof.”

            It does no good. You believe what you want. I’ll effortlessly post ten links right now and you are going to ignore them. You are the perfect, unthinking, unblinking, robotic fundie.

            http://ncse.com/evolution
            http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topicbrowse2.php?topic_id=46
            http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence
            http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/evolution1.htm
            http://www.atheismresource.com/evolution (yes I know it’s an atheist resource, it’s still factual about evolution)
            http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/natural-selection-and-biological-evolution.html
            http://www.scientificamerican.com/evolution/
            http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/web-series-explains-basics-evolution-natural-selection-minutes/
            http://www.nas.edu/evolution/Intro.html
            http://www.nsta.org/evolution/

          • Demopublicrat

            “I provided a link directly to a Catholic source explaining it” If it is actually related to Christianity, the Bible would suffice since it contains ALL we need. How about I send you a muslim link to prove islam is true, would you convert?

            “You have to do your own work.” I have, that’s how I know catholicism is a pagan cult. “If you make a claim that something old is pagan then you have the burden of proof. Not me.” If you make a claim that something pagan is old, then you have the burden of proof. Not me.

            “Also, you DO realize the Bible is also a “tradition of men”, right? As it was written by men?” “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16 Look, no mention of man-made traditions or the flowery paganism of the RCC – oh wait there it is: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9

            “You want pictures?” I have posted some yet you are still in your brainwashed state. If you do post, make sure I am in one of them or they are worthless, while you’re at it post some from billions of years ago.

            Your problem is that when you’re confronted with the truth, you don’t like it and run away with your fingers in your ears saying “fundie Bull$#!t!!” My problem is I haven’t been confronted with any.

            ‘Explain how an infant can repent and believe?’
            “That’s not what it’s about.” Yet another catholic “the Bible is wrong” answer, I posted two scripture passages saying that it is, now how about you post some to back up your fallacy? ” Along with Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, and practically everyone else.” The irrelevant list.

            “Do enlighten me as to exactly what a graven image is, try not to dodge this one, idolater.”
            Once again instead of being enlightened all I see is some rant about “fundies” – your usual MO, but that’s not dodging ’cause in your next post you’ll claim to have answered the question.

            “- proof please, not just telling me there is some or posting some wikilame link, show me the proof.” “It does no good.” How would you know? You never gave any.

            “I mean no WONDER fundies are so universally ridiculed and despised.” “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” 2 Timothy 3:12

            I could effortlessly post links about young earth cereation, but instead of having you drink from a fire hose, I’ll just post 2 for you to view while I show from every one of your links how evolution is a mere religion. Don’t ignore them, you don’t want to be the perfect, unthinking, unblinking, mary-worshiping robot.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ_PHzWE0jk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFhGQ4Do9s

            http://ncse.com/evolution – “Evolution accounts for the striking patterns of similarities and differences among living things” So does creation – no proof here.
            http://evolution.berkeley.edu/… – Glosary of religious terms – no proof here.
            http://humanorigins.si.edu/evi… – “Thousands of human fossils enable researchers and students to study the changes that occurred…” “”The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.”
            Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University), “Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?” Paleobiology, vol. 6(1), January 1980, p. 127 – No proof here.
            http://science.howstuffworks.c… – Basic religious overview – no proof here
            http://www.atheismresource.com… – nice touch using an atheist website to somehow prove God created. “The key point in this debate seems to be whether or not evolution can produce new species, so a sizable portion of this essay will deal primarily with the idea of speciation.
            There are several books and peer-reviewed articles on the subject of speciation (such as the aptly-titled, Speciation). Beyond that, all of the forthcoming information is, and always has been, easily found on the internet.” Appeal to authority arguments, again – no proof.
            http://www.dummies.com/how-to/… – This one was quite lame, it only skimmed the surface stating what the religious belief is, yet – no proof.
            http://www.scientificamerican…. – “Origins of Human Alcohol Consumption Revealed” Seriously? Did you even read any of these? No Proof
            http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/w… – “The theory of evolution is all well and good, but a theory is just an idea – right? Correct” or a religious belief *sigh* no proof here either.
            http://www.nas.edu/evolution/I… – “Evolution is supported by abundant evidence from many different fields of scientific investigation.” Must be top secret because they didn’t show any – No proof
            http://www.nsta.org/evolution/ – “Books & Resources” More useless links, but still – NO PROOF.

            Why don’t you post some like I requested earlier, but let’s stick to one topic at a time instead of a barrage of useless links. Be specific, I like to shoot down specifics.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If it is actually related to Christianity, the Bible would suffice
            since it contains ALL we need. How about I send you a muslim link to
            prove islam is true, would you convert?”

            That’s a really good point actually, you’ve chosen your holy book and rejected all the others (and in fact you’ve also rejected the beliefs of your fellow Christians). How do you know you chose the right one? Did the Holy Spirit come tap you on the shoulder and tell you? Pretty sure the 9/11 hijackers would tell you they were filled by the same kind of zealotry you have, that they are right and everyone else is wrong. You simply reject what you want to reject, REGARDLESS of the facts put before you. and the sooner you admit that the sooner you can take steps to recover from it.

            “I have, that’s how I know catholicism is a pagan cult.”

            You haven’t, because it’s not. You’re using the words of your church teachers and literally nothing else.

            “If you make a claim that something pagan is old, then you have the burden of proof. Not me.”

            Mistletoe and Christmas trees are old. They are also pagan. You lose.

            “Look, no mention of man-made traditions or the flowery paganism of the RCC – oh wait there it is: “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9″

            Gues who wrote those words? Men. Did your Bible fall from the sky one day in a leather-bound KJV edition, written in English?

            “I have posted some yet you are still in your brainwashed state. If you do post, make sure I am in one of them or they are worthless, while you’re at it post some from billions of years ago.”

            VERY interesting words coming from someone who insists that someone praying before a statue is praying TO a statue. If your pictures mean so much, how come you don’t let me do the same thing and post pictures of altar calls, snake waving, idiots writing on the floor babbling in “tongues,” etc? See? People living in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

            “Your problem is that when you’re confronted with the truth, you don’t like it and run away with your fingers in your ears saying “fundie Bull$#!t!!” My problem is I haven’t been confronted with any.”

            But you’re not GIVING me truth. You’re giving me the words and videos (I see some included here) of backwards hillbilly redneck fundies who ARE spouting fundie bullshit. They have no sources to back up their claims and neither do you. You’ve rejected science link after science link saying “no proof” when all there IS is proof. What would it take to get it through your thick head? Why do you take the words of some idiot flailing on the ground over people who’ve actually taken hundreds and hundreds of years to study it?

            “Yet another catholic “the Bible is wrong” answer, I posted two scripture passages saying that it is, now how about you post some to back up your fallacy? ” Along with Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, and practically everyone else.” The irrelevant list.”

            I’m sure the Christians included in that list are REALLY feeling their faith being tested because you called them “irrelevant,” but here’s some more scripture you can twist to mean what you want it to, as you always do, and then tell me that I dodged your question:

            God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [1 Peter 3:20–21]

            “Once again instead of being enlightened all I see is some rant about “fundies” – your usual MO, but that’s not dodging ’cause in your next post you’ll claim to have answered the question.”

            Once again, I DID answer, and you chose to ignore me. The answer is that you misunderstand completely what’s going on regarding statues. Your question contains an inherent flaw, it’s a leading question with a faulty premise so you’re not getting the answer you want because to do so I’d have to agree with what you’re saying in the first place, and I don’t, because you’re utterly full of shit when it comes to “idioatry.” You don’t know what it means, you give piss poor examples of it, and your question is stupid and utterly moot. But I have addressed it as thoroughly as I can now.

            “It does no good.” How would you know? You never gave any.”

            We’ve been over this. You read what you want to read, and irrefutable proof is lost on you because you believe the words of thickheaded fundies over the words of science.

            “”I mean no WONDER fundies are so universally ridiculed and despised.” “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” 2 Timothy 3:12″

            How convenient for you…eh?

            So what we have here is you rejecting the major bodies of science in the world, the most respected people and the soundest, most well-grounded, reasoned, information we have available, and your response is to post Dave Hunt videos. You’re so blind and moronic that after all this time of me telling you I don’t worship Mary and never have, you continue to call me “Mary Worshiper” as though it’s some devastating putdown. I have my answer now. You are impervious to proof. You are impervious to reason, you are impervious to science. You are the PERFECT fundie. Good day.

          • Demopublicrat

            “(and in fact you’ve also rejected the beliefs of your fellow Christians).” Vain traditions of man – not inspired.

            “How do you know you chose the right one?” Faith and study, taking God at his word.

            “Pretty sure the 9/11 hijackers would tell you they were filled by the same kind of zealotry you have, that they are right and everyone else is wrong.” Back atcha.

            “You haven’t, because it’s not. You’re using the words of your church teachers and literally nothing else.” The Bible and historical record.

            “Guess who wrote those words? Men.” Inspired of God, or do you doubt the Scriptures?

            “You simply reject what you want to reject, REGARDLESS of the facts put before you. and the sooner you admit that the sooner you can take steps to recover from it.” Back atcha.
            “Mistletoe and Christmas trees are old. They are also pagan.” and embraced by the RCC – You lose.
            “But you’re not GIVING me truth. You’re giving me the words and videos (I see some included here) of backwards hillbilly redneck fundies who ARE spouting fundie bullshit” Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance, it is obvious you never watched either one, particularly “The Man Behind the Mask”. you are the perfect, unthinking, unblinking, mary-worshiping robot.

            “God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.” So that’s not allegory now?
            “but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. [1 Peter 3:21]” How many infants appeal to God?

            “Once again instead of being enlightened all I see is some rant about “fundies” – your usual MO, but that’s not dodging ’cause in your next post you’ll claim to have answered the question.”
            And on it goes.

            “So what we have here is you rejecting the major bodies of science in the world, the most respected people and the soundest, most well-grounded, reasoned, information we have available” Major bodies of science, but you lack the ability to come up with ANY specifics to you religious claims, I’m calling BS again. Why don’t you post some like I requested earlier, but let’s stick to one topic at a time instead of a barrage of useless links. Be specific, I like to shoot down specifics.

            “Good day.” – surrender, just like a mary-worshiping idolater, I dare you to give me some proof of evolution, but like I said stick to one topic at a time instead of a barrage of useless links, and be specific. I know you have nothing, so I won’t hold my breath.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “Vain traditions of man – not inspired.”

            Fundie opinion. Not fact.

            “Faith and study, taking God at his word.”

            Yes, just like every other zealot on the planet, including those who blow up civilian airplanes.

            “Back atcha..” Absolutely wrong, I know many of my beliefs may be incorrect and are subject to change depending on things like scientific discoveries.

            “The Bible and historical record.”

            Your INTERPRETATION of the Bible, and no history whatsoever.

            “Inspired of God, or do you doubt the Scriptures?”

            And so why couldn’t God also inspire church teachings?

            “Back atcha.” No, because I’m using facts, you’re using the opinions of uneducated fundies like Dave Hunt.

            “and embraced by the RCC – You lose.”

            No, YOU lose. Catholics don’t worship Christmas trees. They might like to have them as decorations though (like every other Christian denomination in the world except yours).

            “Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance, it is obvious you never watched either one, particularly “The Man Behind the Mask”. you are the perfect, unthinking, unblinking, mary-worshiping robot.

            Are you going to accuse me of worshiping Mary in every post, even though I’ve told you 500 times that I’ve never once worshiped her? Is this intended as a devastating putdown, because it’s not working. Maybe if I worshiped Mary we’d have something to talk about, but I don’t.

            Here’s an interesting post about Dave Hunt and why he is not to be taken seriously:

            http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2005/12/02/dave-hunt-credibility-crash-continues/

            “So that’s not allegory now?”

            The Noah part is, absolutely, but not the underlying message.

            “How many infants appeal to God?”

            You don’t think parents can appeal on behalf of their children?

            “Major bodies of science, but you lack the ability to come up with ANY specifics to you religious claims, I’m calling BS again. Why don’t you post some like I requested earlier, but let’s stick to one topic at a time instead of a barrage of useless links. Be specific, I like to shoot down specifics.”

            Do your own homework. And if you make a claim then the burden of proof lies on you. I’m not going to get into the nitty gritty of ten million science weblinks to provide you with things you’re going to shoot down simply because you don’t understand them. And anyway you don’t have the small problem of little items on websites as your major issue. You have the much huger issue of the FACT that evolution occurs and you’re dismissing it as nonsense without giving any reasons why. Maybe you should start there – why is evolution false? We’ll take your points one at a time. I like to shoot down fundie misunderstandings of evolution.

            “surrender, just like a mary-worshiping idolater, I dare you to give me some proof of evolution, but like I said stick to one topic at a time instead of a barrage of useless links, and be specific. I know you have nothing, so I won’t hold my breath.”

            But I haven’t surrendered, Mr. Fundie Bigot. And I’m not an idolater, nor do I worship Mary. And if fundie ignorance keeps making you say the same stupid baseless accusations ten million times in a row, well, I have ten million responses all ready for you. I have tireless energy for dealing with the likes of you.

          • Demopublicrat

            Doesn’t this sound like worship?
            “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

            “Fundie opinion. Not fact.” RCC opinion, not inspired or you would have offered more. Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” That’s definitely a contradiction, we receive nothing from her.

            “Yes, just like every other zealot on the planet, including those who blow up civilian airplanes.” and have crusades and inquisitions.

            “I know many of my beliefs may be incorrect and are subject to change depending on things like scientific discoveries.” Including your lack of faith in the Bible and you blind worship of the pope. As far as “scientific discoveries”‘, sorry there are none to prove your second religion.

            “And so why couldn’t God also inspire church teachings?” God would not contradict himself. The Catholic Church officially states that Church tradition is equal in authority to the Bible. (Catechism 80, 84, 86, 97) The problem is that Catholic tradition consists of various expressions of worship and belief of the Catholic people. (Catechism 78, 98, 113, 2650, 2661) It is cloudy and it keeps changing.

            “The Noah part is…” Nope, it is literal, sea life fossils have been found on top of mountains, the Grand Canyon was created by a washout (not by buzzillions of years, the mouth is higher than the river that flows into it – water doesn’t flow uphill) etc.

            “You don’t think parents can appeal on behalf of their children?” Nope, it is a personal decision, making that decision for another negates the free will that God gave us, and does not come from the infants heart.

            “Do your own homework. And if you make a claim then the burden of proof lies on you.” Yet you claim your second religion is true but cannot offer ANY proof of that. I have done my homework, that’s how I KNOW evolution is a religion.
            “Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.” – Eminent scientific philosopher and ardent Darwinian atheist Michael Ruse

            “things you’re going to shoot down simply because you don’t understand them.” You opinion with no basis in fact, try me – I understand it perfectly or are you afraid your little popey applecart will be overturned? “You have the much huger issue of the FACT that evolution occurs and you’re dismissing it as nonsense without giving any reasons why.” Give me specifics and you will see why. Speciation is the backbone of the whole evolutionary fairytale, yet there isn’t one shred of proof it ever happened, but every indication that it never did. That’s the point where the Bible and evolutionism collide, The Bible says God created man in his image not something else that through random chance became man. Speciation is a myth, shoot away mr super science genius mary-worshiper.

          • Demopublicrat

            “The Man Behind the Mask”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable…”

            Nobody’s disputing that. But why are you using it to mean that you should take church teachings and traditions and throw them in the garbage? Where’s the text that’s telling you to do that? And what, pray tell, makes your Bible any less “man-made” than the traditions and teachings of the ancient church? Did your Bible fall from heaven one day in a leather-bound KJV edition, or was it written by MEN?

            “He did in His Word.”

            Which you fundies have compromised and changed. It was going fine for 2000 years without your help.

            “I noticed you can’t defend your un-biblical fallicies…”

            Not “un-biblical”. NON-Biblical. As in, not there at all. I haven’t said anything that goes against the word of the Bible and I’m not discounting the words of the Bible. I’m just saying there is MORE than JUST the Bible. Your precious Sola Scriptura isn’t even commanded in your Bible. Have a look. You won’t find it.

          • Demopublicrat

            “Nobody’s disputing that.”
            “Care to explain to me how the Bible is any less “man made” than sacred traditions and church teachings?”

            “…take church teachings and traditions and throw them in the garbage?” If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period

            “Which you fundies have compromised and changed.” No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences. The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example. Then we have the Sabbath, the day of Christ’s death and resurrection, and so on.

            “Your precious Sola Scriptura isn’t even commanded in your Bible. Have a look. You won’t find it.” The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except they don’t.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            And WHERE in that statement do you see anything about discounting church teachings and traditions? Your sola scriptura is NOT MENTIONED.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Considering the Catholics pray to Jesus Christ, and are therefore NOT pagans, your statement is BS and 100% hate.

            “The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example.”

            The Apocrypha was NOT added. It was there from the beginning. YOU removed it!

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            Not at all. I’m STILL waiting for you to tell me where it says to the exclusion of church teaching. You are tap dancing around this issue, and not very well.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example.”

            You are a liar:

            “Portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the “reformers” therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are “unscriptural” only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians–including Jesus and the apostles–effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

            Third, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the
            fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church’s decision in this matter.

            By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)–and thus considering them inspired–for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so.

            One of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example.”

            You are a liar:

            “Portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the “reformers” therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are “unscriptural” only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians–including Jesus and the apostles–effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

            Also, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the
            Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the
            fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church’s decision in this matter.

            By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)–and thus considering them inspired–for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so.

            One of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.”

          • Demopublicrat

            “You are a liar:”

            “False. The canon of the New Testament was set from the first century. It is Catholic myth that Catholics gave the world the Bible.
            The New Testament never quotes from the any of the apocryphal books written between 400 – 200 BC. What is significant here is that NONE of the books within the “apocryphal collection” are ever quoted. So the Catholic argument that “the apocryphal books cannot be rejected as uninspired on the basis that they are never quoted from in the New Testament because Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon are also never quoted in the New Testament, and we all accept them as inspired.” The rebuttal to this Catholic argument is that “Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther” were always included in the “history collection” of Jewish books and “Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon” were always included in the “poetry collection”. By quoting one book from the collection, it verifies the entire collection. None of the apocryphal books were ever quoted in the New Testament. Not even once! This proves the Catholic and Orthodox apologists wrong when they try to defend the apocrypha in the Bible.” The scriptures that Christ talked about were the ones set by Jewish tradition and DID NOT include the Apocrypha.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You’re quoting DIRECTLY from William Webster, a notorious anti-Catholic idiot. Provide a slightly less ridiculous source, please…if you can.

          • Demopublicrat

            “notorious anti-Catholic idiot” – a bead-mumbler hating, attacking the messenger when you can’t refute the message. I would suggest you refrain from using notorious anti-Christian catholic sites.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            What pray tell is a “bead mumbler?” Is that supposed to be a refence to a rosary, which is simply an aid to prayer? Is that supposed to be something I’m ashamed of?

            You don’t need me to attack the “messenger” in this case – when someone is a fundie idiot you don’t have to look far online to see all their “fan mail”. I suppose you’re a fan of the fundie site jesus-is-savior.com, too, run by a convicted child abuser?

            There are no “anti-Christian Catholic sites” – for one thing they don’t exist, and for another, you fundamentalists do quite well at getting your own feet in your mouths. You’re the butt of jokes by atheists, Catholics, Lutherans, and many others.

            I have been submitting some of your stuff to fstdt.com, check on there from time to time, you might be famous soon!

          • Demopublicrat

            Rosary – “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” Matthew 6:7

            I am a fan of the Bible – “For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men” Mark 7:8

            Everything catholic is anti-Christian, have a fish-fry and mull it over, also mull over the number of priests who molest boys – even the ones covered up by the RCC.
            “Experience teaches that there is no other remedy for the evil, but to put heretics (Protestants) to death; for the (Romish) church proceeded gradually and tried every remedy: at first she merely excommunicatied them; afterwards she added a fine; then she banished them; and finally she was constrained to put them to death.” -Cardinal Bellarmine
            “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.” John 16:2-3

            fstdt.com – is that where you find your catholic teachings?

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example.”

            You are a liar:

            “Portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the “reformers” therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are “unscriptural” only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians–including Jesus and the apostles–effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

            Also, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the
            Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop
            of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church’s decision in this matter.

            By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)–and thus considering them inspired–for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so.

            One of the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the
            Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “The Apocrypha was added to try and justify purgatory and praying for the dead for example.”

            You are a liar:

            “Portions
            of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the
            case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a
            belief in purgatory), and the “reformers” therefore needed some excuse
            to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are
            “unscriptural” only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that
            the first-century Christians–including Jesus and the
            apostles–effectively considered these seven books canonical. They
            quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures
            that contained these seven books. More importantly, the
            deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

            Also,
            the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn
            of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over
            the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which
            corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time
            there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally
            identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the
            Council
            of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop
            of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every
            instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today.
            In other words, from the end of the
            fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church’s decision in this matter.

            By
            the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73
            books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New
            Testament)–and thus considering them inspired–for more than 1100
            years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the
            deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so.

            One of
            the two “pillars” of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or “the
            Bible alone”) in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away
            from God’s Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of
            violating their own doctrine.”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something
            mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan
            influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d
            find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but
            the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support the Sola Scriptura doctrine you’re so desperately trying for. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • ThroatwobblerMangrove

            Fundie douche

          • Demopublicrat

            Ooooh a hateful mary-worshipping bead-mumbler.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something
            mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan
            influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d
            find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but
            the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject
            teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            “If they contradict scripture like so many do – yup, garbage.”

            Except that they don’t. And you know this.

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Period”

            But NOT to the exclusion of everything else, unless your Bible says something mine doesn’t.

            “No, it was the catholic church that changed things to suit their pagan influences.”

            Two minutes in a Catholic church, or even by SPEAKING to a Catholic, and you’d find out they worship the same Jesus you do. A slightly less hateful one, but the same one. Meaning you’re full of it – Catholics aren’t pagans.

            “The meaning of ALL, THOROUGHLY, and PERFECT still escape you?”

            No, but it doesn’t support Sola Scriptura. It DOES NOT SAY to reject teachings and traditions. You LOSE.

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: Did you know that 1.2 billion people can be “sincere” and be sincerely WRONG! Max Lucado who wrote a book JUST LIKE JESUS, said in the book that the masses of people are always wrong. Look at all the people that follow all of the “man-made” holidays like Easter, Halloween, and Christmas, are they all wrong. You bet your life they are ALL wrong. They were not GOD’s holidays they are made by mortal man only. We were supposed to be honoring GOD’s feast days and His holy day and high holy days and we don’t. So, don’t tell me about masses of people not being wrong as it’s obvious that they are wrong about many things.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            1.2 billion people are not wrong in this case, these are the original Christians, and it’s terribly arrogant of you, who follows a very new denomination of Christianity, to tell those who’ve been doing it for 2000 years that they are wrong. Easter is the celebration of Christ’s resurrection. Christmas is the celebration of Christ’s birth. I’ve been celebrating both for a very long time and I fail to see what’s wrong with it. If you’re going to tell me that they’ve got pagan roots, I don’t care, they’re not pagan in how I’ve been celebrating them.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Also, “God’s word” predates American fundyism by several thousand years, so clearly you’re lying again.

          • Demopublicrat

            Uh… no, only in the deluded catholic mind.

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: I don’t see where Demopublicrat said he hated Mary. I myself have great respect for who she was at the time. But, she is now dead. She has passed on and was buried, where according to scripture she still remains. She will be there until the appearing of JESUS when he comes to raise the dead from their graves at the first resurrection of the dead. She can’t be prayed to effectively as she knows nothing. She is sleeping in the grave. Her spirit left her body at death and went to the LORD, and she’s in the grave. At the resurrection the spirit will rejoin the body and she will have at that time her new spiritual body, but until then she does not know anything, she can not answers any prayers and she is not aware of what’s going on, she is dead.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Well, in the first place, she is NOT dead, she is alive in Heaven with the saints. I’m not sure what more needs to be said.

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: Could you tell me where to find that in the Bible? You may have been told that but is that actually in the scriptures. Even David didn’t go to heaven at his death. JESUS said that nobody has seen GOD. He also said that only he had been to Heaven. I believe Elijah and Enoch went to Heaven. I don’t recall reading “anything” about Mary being there. You have been taught a lot that isn’t in the scriptures.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            wandakate: “Could you tell me where to find that in the Bible?” No, because I’m not a “Bible-only” Christian like yourself. You’re basically asking me to change the rules of Christianity to throw everything out except the Bible, and not everything IS in the Bible, so I’m not going to play that game with you. May I ask why you elected to discard church teachings and sacred traditions, and on whose authority you did so?

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: What a cop-out that is. Such an excuse you have used here. IF GOD did not tell us she’s in heaven and JESUS didn’t mention it in the new testament then it’s not true. Everything we need to know about the past, present and future is in the word of GOD. All of the rest is made up rules, doctrines, rituals, and lies made up by man. They are your church teachings and your sacred traditions. They have nothing to do with me. I believe in GOD, JESUS, the HOLY SPIRIT and the Bible which is the word of GOD. There is no more to discuss with you and you apparently don’t put the Bible as your final word of authority. Mary was special, yes, and she was certainly a good woman, but she sinned and she had other children also. She even asked JESUS to forgive her for her sins. I’m done…

          • BeWhoYouAre

            It isn’t a cop out, the answer is in church teachings which you choose to ignore and discard. And why do you think the BIBLE itself isn’t man-made? It was written by human beings and compiled by the Catholic church. But it didn’t just fall from the sky one day in a leather bound KJV edition. I think you have a lot of things you need to explain if you’re going to say the Bible isn’t man-made, because it is.

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: ALSO can you tell me where it says there are now saints in heaven? What saints are in heaven? thanks!

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No wandakate, I can’t do that because I don’t believe in sola scriptura. And by the way sola scriptura is not Biblical itself. Did you know that? Look anywhere you like in the Bible, it won’t tell you that the Bible is all you need.

    • wandakate

      DEMOPUBLICRAT: No, the Pope isn’t going to declare that he is GOD. That is the job of the antichrist. The False Prophet just helps out the antichrist by guiding the masses to him to do his will. It is the antichrist that will declare himself to be GOD…They are two different individuals.

      • Demopublicrat

        The New Testament Greek –
        Preposition Definition over against, opposite to, before
        for, instead of, in place of (something) instead of, for, for that, because
        wherefore, for this cause

        “Instead of” Most people assume anti only means “opposed to” or “opposite of” but in New testament Greek it can also mean “in place of” or “replacement of”. Now let us look at the title the pope assumes: Vicar of Christ (from Latin Vicarius Christi). VICARIUS CHRISTI, means a SUBSTITUTE FOR CHRIST, which is synonymous with Antichrist.

        • wandakate

          DEMOPUBLICRAT: There are going to be two distinct individuals at the end, One a False Prophet the religious leader and Two the man (the antichrist). They together will obey satan and carry out the mission that they have to carry out at that time. I understand what you are saying, but the Pope is NOT the antichrist. He may be a type of antichrist, but he is NOT the “man”. He is not the one that will enforce the mark of the beast. He is only part of the satanic force.

          • Demopublicrat

            I wouldn’t be dogmatic on that.

    • wandakate

      NO, not quite. It’s not the Pope that will declare himself to be GOD, it’s the Antichrist. The Pope will be the False Prophet who will be a religious leader, the Antichrist will be some kind of political leader that will be very charismatic. He will be a charmer and people will follow him. The False Prophet will perform many miracles and help people to want to follow the Antichrist.

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      The popes of Rome have declared themselves to be god for eons…it amazes me why so many are still in the Catholic Church.

  • Neiman

    When these leaders are willing to soften the Gospel message, to compromise and commit the ultimate blasphemy of taking Christ with them to break bread with those that serve idols and oppose Christ, which includes the RCC; they have exposed the false nature of their faith, they have shown themselves to be practical atheists and their condemnation is sure.

    This is the end times, Laodicean Apostate, anti-Christ Church in operation and yes part of the movement towards a one-world false religion under the False Prophet. Christians, if your pastor thus compromises God’s Word, come out from among them, be ye separate, have no fellowship with them. Yes, pray for their souls, but do not embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

    • http://www.conformtojesus.com Chad damitz

      Neiman, have you ever met Dr. Russell Moore? Before you condemn him, I suggest reading his blog first on why He is going to the vatican. Here is a brief excerpt of what the Southern Baptist evangelical said:

      The colloquium isn’t one of these “Let’s hide all our differences and pretend we’re all together on everything” exercises we’ve all seen happen multiple times over. We have real and ongoing differences on soteriology and ecclesiology, starting with the papacy itself, and that will be the case at the end of this meeting as well as at its start.

      That said, I am willing to go anywhere, when asked, to bear witness to what we as evangelical Protestants believe about marriage and the gospel, especially in times in which marriage is culturally imperiled. In this colloquium, we come not hiding our distinctives behind some general and abstract faith, but we come to it speaking from our distinct confessional traditions to this issue. It’s an issue I believe God has revealed in the universe around us (Gen. 1-2), and that he has explained in the mystery of Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:32), which is why it is of such importance. http://www.russellmoore.com/2014/11/03/why-im-going-to-the-vatican/

      I think the problem today with evangelical Christians is that they are unwilling to dialogue with people of various faith traditions. They presuppose that it is syncretism, a mixing of religious beliefs, into a new synthesis of beliefs, formulating a one-world religion. Your idea of a one-world religion is heavily dependent on your Eschatological views of the end times.

      I am not denying that today lawlessness has increased, the sanctity of marriage is being attacked, and you have prosperity preachers taking advantage of poor countries and saying Jesus will give them material wealth. God will condemn these false prophets and yes, their condemnation is sure.

      But I suggest thinking more critically before you make a statement about Dr. Moore because I personally know him, and he is unwavering in his doctrinal stance. He is a modern day Daniel who is not afraid to stand in the courts of Nebuchadnezzar. Why is it that we are so quick to condemn our Christian brothers who are dialoguing with kings, princes, and world leaders?

      It’s almost as if there is a deterministic view in Fundamental Christianity that suggests anytime we have dialogue with people, we have taken the mark of the beast, have joined the new world order, and lost the faith. This is a presupposition of the text in the book of Revelation and is in no way a prescript for how we should live our lives. Jesus interacted with the Samaritans. He was called a “drunkard and a friend of sinners.” Aren’t we called to be in the world but not of the world?

      • Neiman

        You are right that I do not know this man and should I know more about him, there is the possibility that I might be less critical. but, to criticize someone for their words or actions is not the same thing as condemning them. I resent your using that word “condemn,” as it is mostly used by enemies of Christ against all Christians that openly oppose sin and it is wholly pejorative and wrong.

        It is a far stretch to say this man is a modern day Daniel as the risks are great that with his attitude going to the camp of the enemy, he may actually turn out to be a Jehoshaphat, who compromised with the world, which is the more common result of being unwise is such liberal minded adventures and associations.

        I recall a sermon by a minister who stood on the floor and had his music director stand on top of a pew and asked the latter to pull him up with him and despite great effort he failed. When the minister reversed positions, he on the pew and the music director on the floor and asked the latter to pull him down, the latter did so quite easily. The point is that in our interactions with the people of this world, it is rare indeed for the man of faith to be able to influence the enemy towards Truth (pull them up) and more likely that the man of God will compromise (be pulled down) in the process, oh so slightly, just in an effort to appear reasonable and to be accepted by all as being moderate, reasonable and not rigid and it will almost always result in the man of God softening his stance on sin to some degree and while he may not make his own faith shipwreck, he will have excused others in their going in the opposite direction from Christ.

        In this case, surrounded by people of so many false religions, people aligned with the spirit of anti-Christ, his appearance will in all likelihood be viewed as a triumph for ecumenicalism and not a stand for Christ and the Gospel, which ecumenical spirit always involves compromising Divine Truth in one way or another. That is the doorway to that end times, one world religion – compromise.

        It is obvious to me that by your language which demeans fundamentalism, your spirits are already skewed towards such compromise. Fundamentalism, which you dislike so much, if it was/is an error, it involved these dangerous, to you I am sure, beliefs: They instilled these truths into what became known as the “five fundamentals”:

        1. Biblical inspiration and The inerrancy of scripture

        2. The Virgin birth of Jesus
        3. Belief that Christ’s death was the atonement for sin
        4. Bodily resurrection of Jesus
        5. Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus.

        Pretty evil stuff, right?

        We will have to wait and see what happens, but to my mind, going into the camp of the enemy of our souls and seeking to find common ground, even in defense of marriage, is a fools errand, as the Devil does not compromise, it is only well meaning and errant Christian leaders that do so and I have yet to see one of them that has not thus compromised their faith to some degree to gain a sense of self importance. I saw even the Protestant Pope Billy Graham do this in insisting that anyone accepting Jesus at his meetings, which in anyway seemed they might come from a Catholic faith community, be referred to the RCC for follow-up.

        I appreciate your defense of your friend, but even the best friend, even the man who seems rock solid in his faith, in this modern world of Madison Avenue Christianity, can still be enamored of the idea of meeting with the False Prophet of Rome and coming home with the reputation of having been a moderate voice for reason, thereby salving his own sense of self importance. I can tell by his words that he is an academic, a high sounding theologian in love with the demonstration of his own intellect and his own high sounding vocabulary, which words cannot communicate with common people, it was not the way Christ communicated and that too is a sign of possible danger.

    • Paul Joseph C

      The Truth is one and absolute. The False Prophet is pope Francis and his intention is to corrupt the perfect doctrine of the Mystical Body of Christ: the Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is based on the Bible.
      He is trying to also alter the meaning of the Eucharist. We know this from what Tony Palmer (who died recently) declared in a speech a few months ago:
      http://thewildvoice.org/pope-francis-tony-palmer-change-eucharist/
      The Roman Catholic Church does not serve idols but God only. At the same time, it will be transformed into a new One World Religion under “pope” Francis in order to promote a false watered-down doctrine under the Antichrist.
      We must pray really hard, at this time.
      When the Catholic Church falls under Satan, the world will be in complete darkness, for the light of the world Is Christ Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

      God Bless us all —

      • Lee Carpenter

        I’m sorry, but your letter is a huge mixture of good and evil. The Catholic Church is not the TRUE church. The TRUE church is GOD’s church and GOD said in Matt. 16:18b “I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”. The Catholic church is a false church that does worship idols and prays to dead people, who neither can see or hear. True they will be the head of the NEW WORLD Church and I do believe the Pope will be the False Prophet, but your article seems mixed up with some truth and some falsity.

        • Mary Herridge Clayton

          I’m not sure what you mean be the Pope will be the False Prophet, do you mean the Anti-Christ? I believe the Church of Rome will be the head of the one-world religion also known as the scarlet woman that the Bible speaks about in Rev. 17, but when the Anti-Christ stands in the temple and declares himself god and demands everyone to worship him he will do away with the one-world religion which includes the RCC and the pope.

          • Flint

            Mary you are right on the money!

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            That is correct. The False Prophet will open the doors of the Catholic Church to the Antichrist: this current “pope” is the false prophet. then, the man of sin will enter because of him.
            http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
            http://www.thewildvoice.org

            GOD BLESS + + +

          • wandakate

            MARY HERRIDGE CLAYTON: The false prophet and the antichrist are two separate people. One is the religious leader who guides people to the antichrist and the other is the political leader which is the antichrist. They will work together. They are a team. And satan is their leader. They will both be indwelled with powers from satanic forces of the underworld where satan and the demons are in charge of events that will transpire.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

          • Mary Herridge Clayton

            I know that the false prophet and the antichrist are two separate people. I am in agreement with you on everything you said. I was questioning as to what Lee Carpenter meant by the false prophet
            .

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            Hi Mary,

            The False Prophet is NOT the Antichrist. The False Prophet is the equivalent of the true prophet John the Baptist who proceeded Jesus Christ but was His contemporary.
            The False Prophet is the one who will, in a cunning way, allow the Antichrist (who is not a man of Catholic vows) enter the Temple of the Lord and sit on the chair of Peter.
            Then, it will all be about the Antichrist, a man of INCREDIBLE MAGNETISM and appeal.
            They, together, will lead this new church.

        • BeWhoYouAre

          You are an anti-Catholic bigot. I was Catholic for many years and never once worshiped anything other than the triune God. The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, not a False prophet, how ridiculous.

          • pax2u

            sad that some will call themselves “christians” and attack other Christians

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Sad that some attack Catholics, homosexuals, women, etc. and call themselves Christians.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            Sad that some are hateful towards those who either express an opinion or simply declare the Truth. Why so angry, brother?
            What is in your spirit, today?

            Peace be with us always.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I am not hateful, I am standing up against those who are or who somehow feel that “truth” means religious discrimination.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            And you also need to look into MALACHI MARTIN and his books. Also, the apparitions of La Salette, Fatima, and Akita – which tell of the very entry of Satan in the Catholic Church.
            Mind you, I AM 150% Catholic, and those three Marian apparitions were all approved by the Church.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            This has nothing to do with “religious discrimination”. This is charity. This is love. If I wanted you to fall into error, I would advise you to blindly follow this “pope”. But I am exposing the Truth of God. Of course I respect your choices, but I have the moral duty to let you know.
            I hate Satan. You and I are brothers in Jesus Christ, and I cannot fight against you, but against the principalities and powers the govern this world. The ones which are not of flesh and blood, but who mislead those poor souls whom are blinded by the false promises of the devil: the men and women who control this world, its religions, its governments, its people.

            God Bless us all.
            God Bless you + + +

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            This “pope” is the one who discriminates against true Catholics.

          • wandakate

            JESUS said that the peacemakers would be blessed. The truth is what will set us free. When you know the truth, the truth will set you free is what it says. We are instructed to stand up for what is right and wrong and what is truth and rebuke the devil or people that are deliberately going against what the word of GOD says. Scripture says the saved and the unsaved have nothing in common. To love the sinner but hate the sin.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            It is also true that it is written “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who
            substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute
            bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!”

            ◄ Isaiah 5:20 ►

            Therefore to see the Truth as evil and evil as the Truth is in itself EVIL. To not see the heresies of a man in honor of his unmerited title is to automatically dishonor God and His Holy Word.

            We cannot serve two masters +++ AMEN.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            Not THIS “pope”, dear “BeWhoYouAre”. He is NOT the true Pope, whom remains Pope Benedict XVI (whose resignation is invalid).

            You may disagree, but this man is the false prophet, brother. Read on him and find all the heresies and blasphemies against Jesus Christ and His Church.

            Benedict XVI was the last true pope – Jorge Mario Bergoglio is a Freemason of the order of the Jesuits.

            Pray for discernment.
            God Bless + + +

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Read up on him? I read about him every day. Pope Francis is a saint and a very peaceful man. He is affecting very positive change and is by far the most Christ-like of any pope in recent memory. Benedict was a fossil who sought to keep the church in the Stone Age.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            Then I assume you are NOT a Catholic. As a Catholic, one cannot criticize Pope Benedict XVI, for he is doctrinally perfectly coherent with Church Teachings, therefore, with God’s Holy Word.
            His successor, though, is constantly challenging the Laws Laid down by God: today, he even said that “to lie is a venial sin”. This is why I am asking you if you are familiar with his dozens of heresies. Upon knowing Christ’s Teachings, it is almost impossible not to notice the enormous discrepancies between Catholic Doctrine and Bergoglio’s doctrine of socioeconomic humanism and false compassion supported by a religious fascism towards the so-called “traditionalists” so despised by him.
            Did you see his meeting at the Vatican with the religious leaders of the world? This is absolutely unaccaptable. This man is constantly trying to erase the Truth of Jesus Christ, TRUE GOD and TRUE MAN, of a CHRIST Who Is the ONLY Begotten Son of God. Please, watch this clip: look at the demeanor of Bergoglio as well.

            THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW ‘ONE WORLD RELIGION’.

          • wandakate

            That is what I read in Tom Horn’s book about the “final pope”, it’s supposed to be this one. This Jesuit Pope will turn the church upside down and change many things that were taught through the ages. He will line up with the man of sin and satan. Read that book, it’s amazing with lots of facts and knowledge in it.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            I have not read the book, but have you taken a look at these prophecies?
            http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com
            Go to “messages” and you will see : )

            God Bless +++

          • wandakate

            BEWHOYOUARE: You need to read the book by Tom Horn about the Pope. I can’t recall the name of it, EX-VATICAN or something like that. Any bookstore should have it or maybe you can get it online. It’s not ridiculous, it’s just that you are not informed as to what’s really going on.

        • wandakate

          LEE CARPENTER: I noticed that myself. They do pray to dead people. Mary the mother of JESUS is dead, and they think she has powers so they pray to the Blessed Mother, which is dead. She will be raised up when JESUS comes, in the meantime according to scripture in the old and new testament she is only sleeping. The “spirit” leaves the body at death and returns to GOD, but the person goes into the grave and will be raised at the 1st resurrection of the dead when JESUS comes in the clouds to open them up. The FP is suppose to be the assistant to the antichrist and they are both under Satan’s powers. It’s scary but it’s how near we are to JESUS coming. Put on the whole armor of GOD so you can stand against the devil and his demons and the FP and the AC.

        • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

          Sorry Lee, but the Church founded on Peter is the one in Rome. Therefore, it is Holy and Perfect, for it is the WORD and the FLESH which make it such.
          Nonetheless, the evil one has entered it long ago, because to him the Bride of Christ is the greatest prize. If it were not this way and the Catholic Church had never been hated and attacked, it would not be of God.
          Remember, Christ was accused of being of the devil CONTINUOUSLY as well.
          My opinion is irrelevant.
          Your opinion is irrelevant, as well.
          But the TRUTH is what you have read.

          • Mary Herridge Clayton

            The “Church” is founded on Christ, He is the cornerstone, NOT Peter.

      • wandakate

        PAUL JOSEPH C: I am surprised that you have said the Pope is The False Prophet. That is exactly what the author Tom Horn said in the book he wrote about this very topic. He claimed that the last Pope of the church would be the False Prophet. IF this is in deed a “fact” then that is showing just how close we are to the return of JESUS. And yes all these meeting with Copeland and Robison and Osteen and now Warren and the Muslim Cleric and all the rest is about forming the One World Religion. t’s all coming together just like an end time puzzle. The false religious system will be carried out by the Pope under the direction of the antichrist and he is under the direction of none other than Satan.

        • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

          Absolutely. Did you happen to see this?
          http://www.globalfreedomnetwork.org/
          You are blessed, my friend, because you are able to discern. For this, you will be safe.
          But so many will be deceived, because the religious leaders will become ONE. They will, along with the Antichrist, bring a peace never witnessed before — but it will be false.

          As you indirectly said, the FALSE PROPHET, the ANTICHRIST, and the SPIRIT OF SATAN will be the most unholy trinity – this is why the triangle, the pyramid symbol.

          • wandakate

            I prayed for wisdom and discernment and the LORD gave me my wish. I pray to be safe…it’s getting scary. You are correct, many will be deceived in and out of the HRCC. The One World Religion is being formed now as you know. Many people are coming out of the HRCC. Apparently the LORD is speaking to them or they are having dreams and He is revealing the truth to them and they are heeding and coming out. Peace isn’t possible until JESUS appears again. Only a false peace.
            The Catholic Church is about to join together with the Christian Protestant Churches, the Muslims and this Pope says they will all be joined together as one, under one umbrella of faith. We are living in some extraordinary times for sure. The return of JESUS isn’t far off.

          • http://WWW.THEWILDVOICE.ORG/ Paul Joseph C

            This “pope” will bring the false ‘unity’ under a false ‘church’ in honor of a false ‘christ’ and within the New Order of the Ages (the so-called ‘New World Order’).
            During that false peace, the true Christians (the Remnant Church) will be persecuted as a sacrifice needed for the salvation of the world. All those who will remain under FALSE PROPHET Jorge Mario Bergoglio will have to accept the ‘mark of the beast’, risking to perish into eternal damnation.
            Let us pray that the greatest number of people may come to see the TRUTH of this most cunning satanic deceit.

            +++ Amen.

    • wandakate

      NEIMAN: THIS was just another meeting towards the formation of the One World Religion. Our bibles warn us of these times. They came sooner than I had expected, as I never expected all this in my lifetime so I am astonished to say the least. BUT, the times we are living in are indeed exciting. The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. I hope we can reach some of the lost with the truth before it’s too late.

      • Neiman

        In reading once again the Late Andrew Murray’s teachings on the Life of Prayer in the School of Christ, of the many parts of prayer, we all neglect too much including in our daily prayers for those workers to go into the fields of the world to win souls for Christ, to bring in that harvest. I wonder how much we have delayed His return because we do not take that seriously enough.

        I think the most disheartening thing we witness today is how the organized Christian Church has been selling their souls for a mess of pottage, that being large congregations, large buildings, many programs, all of which demands softening the message against sin, which involves failures in calling those congregants to often repentance and most of all, failing to make Christ the absolute center of every part of our lives. I fear for those pastors, for their making an account to God for their leading so many souls astray.

        I leave you with this thought, if we cannot find in Christ absolutely everything we need for every exigency in this life and for eternity, then surely we have failed to hear God’s voice, we have failed to reckon ourselves dead to all that is in this world and alive only in Christ and that is a pity..

        • wandakate

          I do know that we are to be in this world but not “of” this world. CHRIST should be part of everything we do, say, watch and put into our minds in word and deed…If we love the world the love of the FATHER is not in us, as this world and all it entails is of the evil one (satan), he is the god of this world until JESUS comes at the 7th trumpet call and takes possession of it from him. See Rev. 11:15-19.

  • Matt Weiler

    The catholic church and many institutional churches today primary goal is power. I think the catholic church is feel like there are losing there influence over people because they aren’t changing with the times. They will eventually sell out certain core doctrines to retain this power and influence.

    2 Tim. 3
    But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

    • James Rankin

      Thanks Matt, couldn’t have said it better myself.

      • http://facebook.com singflatly

        An Anglican church in a town near where I live shut down and closed it’s doors last year. The two word explanation given by that church as to why it closed it’s doors was simply: “Not profitable”. How sad that in these perilous days churches put money before the Lord. 🙁

  • Nedd Kareiva

    I’m not at all opposed to meeting with Catholics so long as the gospel is not watered down or compromised. After all, if one reads the Catholic liturgy (minus the Maryology), it is largely in context with what Pentecostals like me believe. BUT we have NOTHING in common with Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, Hinduism. We do not worship the same God and they don’t view Christ as part of the Holy Trinity and equal to the Father. We need to win them over to the Lord Jesus. The Christian religion has no equals.

    If this was a pro-life conference, for example, where we’re talking about saving babies, then an ecumenical gathering like this isn’t necessarily bad or wrong. But when we’re examining Christianity, Christian values and comparing and contrasting them to others, the Christian faith is superior to all. All roads may lead to Rome but only one to the one true God & Christ. There can be no compromise, period!

    Besides all that, what do we have in common with the so-called Religion of Peace (Islam) and its unholy book which advocates the slaughter of us infidels and says not to take Jews & Christians for friends? Tricky Ricky (Warren) & Russ (Moore) need a reality check.

    • Demmi Greene

      And Russ (Moore) thinks he speaks for all Baptists. He’s been trying to ”shoe-horn” ”homosexuality conscientiousness” into the fray since the BSA travesty a while back. That dog wont’ hunt.

    • Reason2012

      Hello. The truth of God is more than just watered down by the Catholic doctrines, it’s unfortunately outright distorted. They even re-sacrifice Christ at every mass, claiming to have the power to turn wafer and wine literally into the body and blood of Christ, where the congregation says “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your (the priest’s) hands….”
      There’s far more than this they distort (unknowingly or not). People who are really saved need to come out of that denomination and get into a church that preaches God’s Word, not a denomination’s version of it.

  • Reason2012

    2 Timothy 3:1-7 “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

    If we are to separate ourselves from those who at least pretend to have a form of godliness, how is it we’re to join together with those who deny Jesus as the Christ?

    Matthew 15:14 “[Jesus said] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

  • jennylynn

    Rick Warren seeks apporval of man yet has denied Jesus. If he loved people he would preach repentence and the authority of scripture instead of compromise. Judgement begins with the household of God. 1 Peter 4:17, Revelation 2:3, Amos 3:7

  • James Rankin

    Apostates it’s that simple

    • http://www.conformtojesus.com Chad damitz

      James, have you ever met Dr. Russell Moore? Before you condemn him, I suggest reading his blog first on why He is going to the vatican. Here is a brief excerpt of what the Southern Baptist evangelical said:

      The colloquium isn’t one of these “Let’s hide all our differences and pretend we’re all together on everything” exercises we’ve all seen happen multiple times over. We have real and ongoing differences on soteriology and ecclesiology, starting with the papacy itself, and that will be the case at the end of this meeting as well as at its start.

      That said, I am willing to go anywhere, when asked, to bear witness to what we as evangelical Protestants believe about marriage and the gospel, especially in times in which marriage is culturally imperiled. In this colloquium, we come not hiding our distinctives behind some general and abstract faith, but we come to it speaking from our distinct confessional traditions to this issue. It’s an issue I believe God has revealed in the universe around us (Gen. 1-2), and that he has explained in the mystery of Jesus Christ (Eph. 5:32), which is why it is of such importance. http://www.russellmoore.com/20

      I think the problem today with evangelical Christians is that they are unwilling to dialogue with people of various faith traditions. They presuppose that it is syncretism, a mixing of religious beliefs, into a new synthesis of beliefs, formulating a one-world religion. Your idea of a one-world religion is heavily dependent on your Eschatological views of the end times.

      I am not denying that today lawlessness has increased, the sanctity of marriage is being attacked, and you have prosperity preachers taking advantage of poor countries and saying Jesus will give them material wealth. God will condemn these false prophets and yes, their condemnation is sure.

      But I suggest thinking more critically before you make a statement about Dr. Moore because I personally know him, and he is unwavering in his doctrinal stance. He is a modern day Daniel who is not afraid to stand in the courts of Nebuchadnezzar. Why is it that we are so quick to condemn our Christian brothers who are dialoguing with kings, princes, and world leaders?

      It’s almost as if there is a deterministic view in Fundamental Christianity that suggests anytime we have dialogue with people, we have taken the mark of the beast, have joined the new world order, and lost the faith. This is a presupposition of the text in the book of Revelation and is in no way a prescript for how we should live our lives. Jesus interacted with the Samaritans. He was called a “drunkard and a friend of sinners.” Aren’t we called to be in the world but not of the world?

  • Bolvon72

    Can I sum up the commenters’ reaction to this… “xenophobia first, brainwash the masses.”

  • exposerxxx

    Rick Warren is the typical CEO of a multi level marketing firm who has a silver tongue. He knows how to use semantics to fool those who are of the common folk. What he says sometimes sounds good, but I am not judging him on his words per se but his actions. In this case he is clearly forming a bond with the devil. He just licked the envelope to his RSVP to hell. Hey – just saying.

    • Deanna Clark

      Wasn’t there a Rockford File TV movie where Angel Martin, the ex-con, has a church like Saddleback? How can people fall for that over and over and over? Did they drop their brains in the offering basket?

      You know what? Living as Christ taught and placing all your bets on Him is a very personal choice. Most churches have wheat and tares both. Saddleback has dummies…all those franchises attract them.

  • Brent Pudsey

    There is a need for believers to follow what the Bible says and not to agree with the world. However we need to do this with the gentleness of the Holy Spirit.

  • Magali Haueissen

    So now Rick Warren is brethering with catholics and other gods worshippers? because catholic, Buddhists etc. Do worship other gods, and that was one of the sins God hated the most of Israel and would anger Him so much “It is an abomination to the Lord God” it’s what the word says, so nevermind gays issue, this seems to me a great deal. I choose to follow God and not man So I will not copartake with these idol worshipper friends!

  • Sandy Buchanan

    The Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10).

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/all-God-children.html#ixzz3ISgIPgYv

  • Chrissy Vee

    We are getting closer. How exciting! I am so grateful to watch what Almighty God has revealed to us, unfolding right before our eyes. I am awed. Praise Jesus! o/ ♥

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      closer to…. ? The age of Aquarius?

      • Chrissy Vee

        Yeah, that too.

  • exiledonmainstreet

    The false prophet is lining up his one world religion. Time is SHORT my friends, fund Jesus as your Savior NOW!!!

    • Brian

      hi brother or sister, you need to reread revelation and other prophetic books, keeping your opinions out and just letting the Bible describe what it is trying to tell you. the Catholic Church is not the false prophet. It is the beast of Revelation 13,17, Daniel 8 ,9 ,10,11 and many other books of the bible. the false prophet is that power which helps the beast regain the power it once had during the Middle Ages when it controlled Church and state. The state did what the church told it to do or it was destroyed by other states who did what the church told them to do. they had total control over all of Europe and a good portion of other parts of the world. This is to be repeated in our day. Think about it, how often did you hear about the Pope and the Vatican in our newspapers 40-50 years ago? not very often. But now they are in the paper almost everyday, because they have taken over almost all of the world including the United States Congress, senate, presidency, and most importantly the Supreme Court. Those of you who think that you’re going to get anything like an anti-gay, anti-abortion or pro marriage agendas passed by the Supreme Court, are living a pipe dream. life as we have known it in the United States for over 200 years is about to end. This nation was formed to protect religious rights, but those rights have been perverted by those in power to do just the opposite to true Christians.if you want to know who the false prophet is look no further than your own country the United States of America. It is the lamb like beast with two horns from Revelation 13 verse 11. the two horns did represent republicanism and Protestantism, but they now represent Catholicism and socialism. We are being developed into a socialist / communist state in which religion will be controlled by the state and them controlled eventually by the Vatican.if you love the Lord, you better get close to him. Real close. Because only those who have a close and decided relationship with the Lord are going to survive the Severest persecution ever known too man. there will not be any secret rapture to take away people from the earth during this persecution. not one of the forefathers of our church from Genesis to Revelation ever escaped persecution or even death during their lifetime. Why do Christians continue to believe the False Jesuit teaching of a secret rapture? I am very happy to see that there are people who are aware of what the beast is doing and who the beast is represented by. And one of the first people who wrote in were right 100%, when they said that you are not to have any relationship with the news of the unfruitful works of darkness. If that Baptist pastor is such a good man for the Lord, then he should know better than to go in front of all the demons that will be battling for the Papacy in the Vatican. He should not go at all. But if you did go he should have a large group of pastor praying against those demons, seek to destroy him or seek to cause him to compromise. may God strengthen all of this for the battles that are coming our way sooner than we think.

  • OldArkie

    Many there be that do not heeds God’s warning in 2 Corinthians 6:14-17. I suppose they do not want to come out from among them and be ye separate so that God will receive them. That is they love the broad wide gate and all the people gathering before it and that’s who they enjoy hanging out with while headed to destruction. And therefore do not like to be with those few who are gathered around the strait narrow gate that leads to life.

  • scriptdreamer

    I assumed correctly that there would be a “mass” (pardon the pun) of angry folks over this meeting. However, with these Christians invited to meet leaders of other major world religions, it is possible the Holy Spirit has His own agenda and could use this gathering for our brothers in Christ to do some apologetics and anointed witnessing with the hope these leaders may be converted to Christ. We are called to take every opportunity to share the gospel. Engaging these people neither validates their false beliefs nor compromises ours. What terms are acceptable to you naysayers to share a gospel you neither earned nor deserve? When was the last time you reached out with the gospel to a catholic, mormon, sikh, hindu, buddhist, or muslim? Pray for our bretheren that they may have opportunity to witness in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    • Marilyn Joy

      I agree with you wholeheartedly. We are surrounded by different religions at all times. We are in the world but not of it. We work with them, they live next door to us, our children go to school with them, they’re in the stores or own the stores we go to. We cannot ignore them. However, we can live our life in such a Christian way and, if asked, give them a reason for our hope in Christ. Who would refuse such an opportunity! Just like Jonah being sent to Ninevah, it’s possible that these Christians are being sent to represent Christ!! However, if you’re not strong in your faith and are easily persuaded, then you should not try this. Just work on increasing your faith. However, when your faith is strong, we are only persuaded that nothing and no one can separate us from God’s love. We are more than conquerors through Jesus Christ!!!

      • scriptdreamer

        Agree with you, and thanks for posting…now, if they don’t attend with God’s agenda in mind that would deserve an entirely different response

        • Marilyn Joy

          Amen.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      This is run by a man who said atheists can find their way to heaven. It is ecumenism and watered down scripture at best, demon-worship at worst. Do you really think the Gospel according to Jesus Christ is going to be preached? Please reconsider your opinion!

  • http://www.simplicityinthegospel.com/ Andre Delage
  • Paul Joseph C

    “Pope” Francis is not the Pope of our Catholic Church. He is the False Prophet trying to unite all religions into a One World Religion. We need to pray.
    http://www.thewildvoice.org

  • Ray Ljubisic

    Ephesians 5:11-12King James Version (KJV)

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

  • Kent Harris

    The One World Religion is at our doorsteps and the Southern Baptist which I am a member of sees no problem with this. I am going to call the Southern Baptist main office to tell them that there is only one faith and that it rests with Jesus, our Lord and God, for he alone is to be exalted and worshipped. All other faiths lead to hell and damnation.

  • Jonathan Rocker

    Its not about if people like what they see. We are not to be seeking mens approval but God’s. We are to preach the truth. His Word. Get on your knees and repent! Turn from this wickedness.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    Leave it to Christians to have a conference about the plainly obvious with the worshippers of demon-gods. It’s like an APA convention.

    • Chrissy Vee

      You love us, admit it. ♥

  • ivanjohn

    Then they will all sit on the floor induce themselves into a mass contemplative trance and listen for instructions from another Jesus calling I suppose.

  • Flint

    The Catholic Church is not the antichrist, it is the Whore of Babylon. (Rev. 17) The worship of the Virgin Mary is a disguise for the Queen of Heaven. In Pre-islamic times the Ka’aba in Mecca was a place of worship for the Queen of Heaven. The Jews worshipped her in the form of Asherah which in the OT is called “groves”. King Josiah and the prophet Jeremiah came against this vehemently. (Jer. 44) The thing that will unite the religions is this recognition of the Queen of Heaven as being God. As far as the antichrist goes, he is not the pope. He is going to come from the nation of Syria. (Dan. 11)
    (not bashar al-assad) The antichrist will be part Arab and part Jew.
    (Dan. 11:37 “God”=Elohim) The scary part about the Whore is Rev. 17:4-6. Personally I’m believing God to be raptured so I don’t have to go through this evil. I believe that all who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will be raptured as well.
    (1 Cor. 15:51-52 / 1 Thess. 4:13-18 / 2 Thess. 2:1-8 / Rev. 1:19, 4:1) We just need to preach the true Gospel of Repentance and Faith in the Son of God as the only way to Heaven. And by the way, if the REAL Virgin Mary were here today, the last thing she would want is to be venerated and worshipped! That’s WHY God chose her.

  • http://dreamstarworld.wordpress.com/ Terence Blackett

    Revelation chapter 13:11-18 is being fulfilled in our day & time… AmeriKKKan Protestantism is the 2ND BEAST* of Rev.13 who will be the “ONE” who will make an “IMAGE” to the 1st BEAST of Rev.13:1-10 whose deadly wound was healed… And the 2ND BEAST power will “DECREED” by legislative processes that “ALL” human beings – GREAT & SMALL (WORSHIP*) the 1st BEAST!!!

    Just as in Daniel 3 Nebuchadnezzar made a “GOLDEN” image had every human being in the REALM (Empire) bow down – so it will be in the days just up ahead…

    SATAN* desires “WORSHIP” & desires for the whole world to take the mark of the best; bow to the “IMAGE” of the BEAST* or have the “NUMBER” of his name!!!

    Like the HEBREW boys – we refuse to “BOW” to any man-made god except ELOHIM* – THE CREATOR GOD OF THE UNIVERSE!!!

    Rick Warren & his ilk can PISS* OFF back to HELL* from whence they came!!!

  • Rafael

    for what fellowship has light with darkness?

  • Sylvia Pasquale

    As a Christian latina , Hispanic Christian pastors say the reason the Vatican took down pope benedict and got this one in his place is because in Latin America Hispanics have been converting to Jesus and leaving the catholic church despite what the catholic church says, what a move by the Vatican. Now the US who used to send missionaries all over the world has become the apostate church with its prosperity gospel preachers who were not anything but apostates since the beginning. The bible says in the last days will be a one world religion and the false prophet to glorify the beast or antichrist. A true Christian you will know him or her by his/her fruits, it’s not what comes out of the mouth by their lives, the testimony. these are days where the true Christians need to stand up and don’t have part with the world, this religious system and live faithfully and holy for our Redeemer is coming soon. I came from the catholic church years ago and thank God He saved me.
    Jesus is he is the way to Heaven, the truth and the Life, no other road or way will get you there. So many have become apostate by joining this pope too and joining in the ecumenical movement like Billy Graham, Luis Palau which I liked a lot. Now the lines are being defined who is and was of Jesus and for Jesus and who isn’t.

  • Alan

    16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. The dragon is the civil power = the United Nations; The beast is the same power as the beast in chapter 17 and is the religious power = the Roman Catholic church, and Pope Francis is the head; The false prophet is apostate protestantism = the United States

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

      You have the beast and the false prophet correct, but the dragon is Satan

      • Alan

        Yes, the dragon is Satan. But Satan is always represented through a government. Example — 29:2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
        29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself. ” Here Satan is represented as Egypt, a atheistic nation. Example #2 ” 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
        12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.” Here the woman is Gods church at the time Jesus was born And Satan uses Herod, the ruler of pagan Rome at the time of Christ’s birth, to destroy Him. But God in a dream had Joseph to take Mary and the child Jesus to Egypt to escape the death that Satan had planned for Him. See Math.2: 13-23.
        The United Nations is the government that Satan is using now to police the people of the earth, along with the U.S.A. And Satan will use the United Nations -the Government , the U.S. – Apostate Protestantism and Papal Rome the Beast power to persecute Gods people just before the soon second coming of Christ.