Kirk Cameron Raising Concerns After Coming Out in Support of Santa Claus

CameronWas Santa Claus a Christian? A ‘defender of the faith’? Is this reason to sit on the lap of the bearded man at the mall who “knows if you’ve been naughty or nice”? That is what Kirk Cameron is claiming as proof why Christians should celebrate Christmas in a new documentary that opens this Friday in theaters across the country—an assertion that is raising concerns over Cameron’s confusion of Roman Catholicism with Christianity.

Cameron, best known for his role as Mike Seaver on the 80’s TV sitcom “Growing Pains” and films such as “Fireproof” and “Left Behind,” has been promoting his new film “Saving Christmas,” in which the actor seeks to “keep Christ in Christmas,” stating that some holiday traditions aren’t so bad or pagan after all.

After recently asserting that Christians should celebrate Halloween, in a video clip released last week entitled “Do You Love Santa Claus,” Cameron stated that “maybe someone like Santa Claus is actually on our team.” He then released a second video providing the history of the figure of Santa Claus, who was actually the Roman Catholic Bishop Nicholas of Myra, Turkey under Pope Sylvester I.

St. Nicholas, as painted on the Kizhi monastery in Russia.
St. Nicholas, as painted on the Kizhi monastery in Russia.

“He was a devout Christian,” Cameron states, but not noting Nicholas’ Roman Catholic faith. “He was left with a large sum of money when his parents died, and be became famous for his kindness toward the poor and his generous giving of gifts to children.”

“He was there at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, one of the most important events in Church history,” he continues, referring to the first ecumenical conference under Constantine. “The Council of Nicaea ended up producing what is known today as the Nicene Creed, a profession of faith used by churches all around the world. The creed affirmed the deity of Christ and the three persons of the trinity.”

According to the St. Nicholas Center, Roman Catholics believe that after Nicholas was put into prison for striking another man during the council, “Jesus with His mother Mary appeared to Nicholas: Jesus bringing the book of the Gospels, and Mary, the bishop’s stole which had been taken from him. In this way, Nicholas was reinstated.”

Actor Darren Doane, the director and co-writer of “Saving Christmas” and who also plays “Christian” in the film, referred to Catholics as his Christian brothers in a Tweet this past May, writing, “My Catholic brothers worshiping Mary is no more weird to me than my evangelical brothers worshiping atheistic Israel land borders.”

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During a recent speech before hundreds of students at Liberty University, Cameron likewise made his case for St. Nicholas as being a Christian man of faith.

“[T]hey even ‘sainted’ him—that’s why we call him St. Nicholas,” he said. “He became legendary in his time and beyond his time. He became larger than life and reached mythic proportions.”

Cameron said that the use of Santa Claus, who had developed from the person of St. Nicholas, was therefore not so bad after all.

“So the guy that many of us think is distracting from the birth of the Christ child, is really the defender of the faith you and I want to be,” he asserted. “So now that you know who the real Santa Claus is, you want to take a picture with him at the mall this Christmas? I do.”

Gendron
Gendron

But some do not agree with Cameron’s assertions, and believe that Christians should stay away from joining with the Roman Catholic Church or honoring its icons.

“Born again Christians should not be joining Roman Catholics in any spiritual enterprise or activity,” Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network. “Paul called us to remain separate from unbelievers who embrace a false gospel. Light and darkness have nothing in common and there is no agreement between the temple of God and idols (2 Cor. 6:14-18).”

“I believe Kirk knows that Roman Catholicism is a divisive issue among evangelicals and purposefully avoids it,” he said when asked about why he thinks Cameron might have failed to mention that Nicholas was Catholic. “The fact that the RCC ‘made’ Nicholas a saint should be a red flag to anyone who knows only God can convert sinners to saints by the sovereign work of His Spirit.”

Gendron noted that Christmas in itself is a Roman Catholic holiday mixed with pagan traditions.

“The word Christmas means the mass of Christ. The mass is a sacrifice where a wafer is said to become the physical body and blood of Jesus Christ. It is ritualistic slaying of Jesus Christ on an altar for the purpose of appeasing the wrath of God,” he said. “This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and “Christmas” is a word that they invented for Christ’s mass. When people say, ‘Merry Christmas,’ they probably don’t know the meaning behind the greeting. They are mixing the holy name of Christ with a pagan holiday and a blasphemous representation of Christ on an altar.”

He said that it is important that Christ be worshiped in spirit and in truth, and not just any way one pleases.

“The Lord says His name must not be mixed with pagan idolatry: ‘My holy name you shall no more profane with your gifts and your idols’ (Ezekiel 20:39),” Gendron stated. “It is no wonder that Satan has influenced the world to blend paganism with the worship of God. Satan (which contains the same letters as Santa) has been diverting minds and hearts from a pure devotion to God and Christ since the Garden of Eden (2 Cor. 11:4).”

The former Roman Catholic turned evangelist said that while he does not condemn those who choose to celebrate the day, he believes that Christians need to use discernment about the matter.

“Anytime truth is mixed with error and biblical Christianity is blended with the teachings and traditions of apostate Christianity, there will be confusion within the Church. Tragically, we are living in a time when evangelicals are following popular personalities instead of Christ and His word,” Gendron stated. “Since the word of God is not being proclaimed faithfully from many pulpits, there is a lack of discernment in the pews. Since people are not hearing the truth, they cannot discern what is false.”

December 6th is the Roman Catholic “Feast of Saint Nicholas,” who is also dubbed “Nicholas the Wonder Worker” due to claims that his intercession had brought about miracles on earth.


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  • John Broom

    So maybe we evangelicals shouldn’t lean on St. Augustine either; after all he was the Bishop of Hippo……and a “Roman Catholic” and didn’t even convert from paganism until well after the Council of Nicaea.

  • Neiman

    Kirk has been a strong defender of the faith and in the anti-Christ Hollywood of the modern era, a man who endangered his own career to stand up for his faith. For that I commend him.

    I have never gotten too worked up about Christmas and Santa Claus, as from my youth of more that 6.5 decades ago, I felt as long as Christ was honored and it was a time to testify about Jesus, there was no reason to get on a soap box. I have always enjoyed this season. But <- and you knew a "but" was coming, didn't you?

    In the past few years, as I have watched and usually enjoy Christmas movies, I have noted a strong trend to take Christ out of Christmas. Just today a movie played on cable about defending Santa Claus, with Dean Cain. At the end, in his summation, he talks with passion about Santa bring into the world the greatest gift – of love. Whoa, hold back the Reindeer please, I thought God Who so loved the world brought Love into the world in the gift of Salvation and that by His Son, not Santa Claus. As you watch these holiday movies, especially those of the modern era, it is all about Santa Claus and even about human beings, without any reference to Christ bringing love to the world and if we just believe in these fairy tales, we find that Santa Claus and sinful man is the source of all good and all love and yes, even bringing peace to the world.

    In my youth, most movies, not all, but most, honored Jesus as the Gift of Christmas and now it has all changed, Jesus is a minor player, if involved at all. We have lifted man up to deity, man is the savior of man. So, pardon me if I say Kirk is wrong, despite the legends about Santa Claus, he does not bring peace or love, at best the original monk acted on the love of Christ, but it was Jesus that was the source of that love and got all the honor, praise and glory. Now Jesus and the Christian faith are even being stripped out of all our schools and in government, no longer can any reference be made to Jesus birth, the original reason for the season. No Kirk, we must stop lifting up Santa Claus and bring Jesus back as the reason we celebrate at this time of year.

    • Kim Deaton

      I agree

      • Donna Marie Paradowski

        I agree also

      • holly

        Because Christmas is a Pagan holiday just like Easter and Valentine’s Day! Christians aren’t even supposed to celebrate those holidays!

        • April Tice Swann

          Easter and Christmas is not pagan holidays. Anything that is good can be turned to bad and etc. Christmas has been to commercialized with gifts and Santa agreed. I put it all about Jesus. He had to be born to do on the cross for our sins. That’s what these holidays are all about Jesus. Not Santa not the Easter bunny but Jesus. My kids know the real reason for the seasons.

          • i1derdou

            Agreed! Did anyone know that today is a holiday? It’s “I Love Jesus Day”! I’m going to celebrate it! Tomorrow’s a holiday too – It’s “I Love Jesus Day”. Yep, going to celebrate it. And, when Christmas day comes, I’ll celebrate it remembering the gift of Christ. And, when Easter comes (You know… it’s “I Love Jesus Day” again) I’m going to celebrate that He died on the cross for me. And what about Valentines Day? Pagan or not I’ll celebrate it because – Everyone say it together now – it’s “I Love Jesus Day”! and I’m super thankful that God blessed me with a beautiful, loving wife. I’ll celebrate “I Love Jesus Day” every day this year and every year to come. The point is, everyone needs to get off their soapbox, stop judging each other (and Kirk Cameron) and work on a having a personal relationship with God. If we don’t celebrate every day as I Love Jesus day then how else can we model His love to others?

          • Kathleen Marion

            There is never any good in pagan celebrations. The pagan celebration of Saturnalia was a sexual orgy which the RCC took and slapped the name of Jesus on in the 3rd century. The Word of God says NOT to do that! Deut 12:29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? I ALSO WILL DO LIKEWISE.’ 31 YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; FOR EVERY ABOMINATION TO THE LORD WHICH HE HATES THEY HAVE DONE TO THEIR GODS; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

            You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear and you cannot take an evil practice and make it good. It is called the traditions of men, which Jesus also condemned!

            And yet Jesus himself said “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

          • Carolina Carsella

            O THank GOD For your Post!!!! WHY are So Many Blinded to this???This was Israel’s Biggest Problem!!!They always wanted to be Like The Heathen Nations that Surrounded Them!!!,But GOD was,and Still is Looking for a “Seperated People”!!!Shalom

          • holly

            Lol.Christmas is Pagan holiday that you Christians conveniently stole which makes you thieves. Jesus wasn’t born on December 25th. It is unknown when he was born. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm http://www.eliyah.com/paganexp.html http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/holidays2.htm http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract3.html http://www.hope-of-israel.org/cmas1.htm They put it on the same day to convert the Pagans easier. The Christians were apparently trying to get more converts so they tried to make the Messiah more like the idols found in sun worship—all under the guise of making Him more attractive to pagans.
            They even brought various elements of the December 25th “feast of the unconquered sun” into their worship by saying that December 25th was actually the Messiah’s birthday, which was simply not true. This is the origin of Christmas and this is why we have various pagan-rooted traditions accompanying this holiday. Christmas=Yule=Saturnia. Paganism has been here longer then Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
            Lets clarify some stuff here, for starters Christmas is NOT a Christian holiday, yes they’re a handful of pious Christians who celebrates the holiday to commemorate Jesus and his alleged return, etc. At the very same time, Christmas happens to be a “Pagan” holiday with such traditions such as the “Christmas Tree”, also, “Yule” happens to be a religious festival in Paganism that observes by the historical Germanic peoples, later being absorbed into and equated with the Christian festival of Christmas. The earliest reference to Yule are by way of indigenous Germanic month names. Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Modranicht. Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for Christmas with its religious rites, but also for holidays of the season. Yule is also used to a lesser extent in English-speaking countries to refer to Christmas, customs such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing and others stem from Yule, a number of Neo-Pagans have introduced their own rites. As for the link with the word “Christ” in it, its been discussed and debated amongst archaeologists & genealogists where exactly Jesus was born, and he was NOT born on December 25, but during the spring and warm weather months. And you folks have to recognized this, that ALL of the Abrahamic religions originally derived out of Paganism, it all of the three Abrahamic faiths didn’t occur on their own out of thin air!

          • holly

            Easter is a Pagan holiday that Christians aren’t supposed to celebrate. They only should celebrate the Passover. Proof? If Easter isn’t really about Jesus, then what is it about? Today, we see a secular culture celebrating the spring equinox, whilst religious culture celebrates the resurrection. However, early Christianity made a pragmatic acceptance of ancient pagan practises, most of which we enjoy today at Easter via the Catholic Church. The general symbolic story of the death of the son (sun) on a cross (the constellation of the Southern Cross) and his rebirth, overcoming the powers of darkness, was a well worn story in the ancient world. There were plenty of parallel, rival resurrected saviours too.

            The Sumerian goddess Inanna, or Ishtar, was hung naked on a stake, and was subsequently resurrected and ascended from the underworld. One of the oldest resurrection myths is Egyptian Horus. Born on 25 December, Horus and his damaged eye became symbols of life and rebirth. Mithras was born on what we now call Christmas day, and his followers celebrated the spring equinox. Even as late as the 4th century AD, the sol invictus, associated with Mithras, was the last great pagan cult the church had to overcome. Dionysus was a divine child, resurrected by his grandmother. Dionysus also brought his mum, Semele, back to life. Pagan roots of Easter lie in celebrating the spring equinox, for millennia an important holiday in many religions. Celebrating the beginning of spring may be among the oldest holidays in human culture. Occurring every year on March 20, 21, or 22, the spring equinox is the end of winter and beginning of spring. Easter was originally (and still is) a celebration of the fertility of the earth, renewed each springtime. The egg, the chick, the rabbit, the flowers, are all fertility symbols (and much older than the Christian symbol of the resurrected god). Its celebration has often been marked by sexual exuberance, as is still prominent in the pre-Lenten Carneval and Mardi Gras festivals and the phallic symbolism of the May pole and the cross.
            Long before Jesus, many peoples associated this festival with the coming back to life of the god of fertility (Tammuz – see Ezek 8:14, Adonis, Osiris, Perseus, Orpheus), who had been dead in the underworld during the winter. Even the name by which Christians still celebrate the festival is a corruption of the name of the ancient fertility goddess Ishtar or Ashtoreth (whose name also survives in the name of one of the books of the Old Testament, the only Bible book that contains no reference to God – the Book of Esther).
            The Christian church, because it could not eradicate the celebration of this popular festival, reinterpreted it and assigned to it a new meaning, but was unable to erase completely its original significance. Undoubtedly current attempts by Christians will have no more success. The egg and the rabbit, the phallic pole or cross (the real symbols of the festival) will continue to be loved and celebrated as long as we can marvel at the new life which the spring brings. Also I find it funny that some Christians call Paganism “devil worship” yet the holidays like Christmas and Easter are derived of Pagan holidays. Guess Christians have no problem stealing other religion’s holidays right? Lol. The whole religion is derived off Pagan worship and plagiarism. Lol. Between the Sun God worship on Sunday instead of Saturday (the actual Sabbath day) and the holidays it looks a lot like Paganism to me! Not to mention the bible is a rip off from other Pagan stories. Hahahaha thieves and murderers Christians are. Yet, there are 2 commandments that say THOU SHALL NOT STEAL and THOU SHALL NOT KILL! They’re all hypocrites! Lol. However, all religions are based on sun worship and astrology. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/apr/03/easter-pagan-symbolism http://atheism.about.com/od/easterholidayseason/p/PaganChristian.htm http://www.truthbeknown.com/easter.htm http://packham.n4m.org/easter.htm http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/ostara.html http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ēostre http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/ostarathespringequinox/p/Ostara_History.htm http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usma&c=holidays&id=1991

          • holly

            Oh and Jesus wasn’t born on December 25th nor did he celebrate birthdays because he was Jewish! You are believing in a lie!

          • April Tice Swann

            Oh I know that everybody knows that’s not his real birthday. We should celebrate Jesus everyday. So are youssaying you don’t celebrate your birthday by thanking Jesus for another year. I agree Christmas is getting out of hand but just because you don’t celebrate doesn’t mean others shouldn’t. You can turn good into bad or bad into good. That’s the free will God gave us. I’m celebrating Thanksgiving now.

        • winteryblackknight

          If it brings families together and includes beautiful hymns and carols and the telling of the story of Christ’s birth it can’t be all that bad.

          • Neiman

            Can you mix Satan with Christ? It is Christ that is the sole object of our love and while grateful for people that are examples of devotion to Christ and display in their own lives the grace of God in giving, to the degree they take focus off Christ, they are anti-Christ and only produce evil fruit.

          • winteryblackknight

            You can’t tell the difference between Satan or Christ by what you say. You need to reread Mathew 25. Christ certainly wants us to love our neighbours and family and learn about his birth and parents and spread good cheer. The second great commandment. You are just a fooloish tool of Satan.

          • Neiman

            Thank you. They also accused my Lord of having a devil or doing the work of Satan, even of casting out demons by the power of Satan. I am so filled with joy to share in the fellowship of His sufferings, to stand with Him and against the world.

          • winteryblackknight

            You exalt yourself. You are ignoring the second great commandment.

          • Neiman

            So, when Peter and John rejoiced in the sharing in the fellowship of Christ’s sufferings were exalting themselves? When the Holy Spirit tells us we will share in His sufferings, he was exalting us?

          • winteryblackknight

            Oh are you sharing in his sufferings now? You tell people that spending time with family at Christmas is taking away from Christ. Yet spending time with family is following Christ’s second great commandment and also following the tenor of Mathew 25. When we express our love of family, neighbour we are expressing our love of Christ. You didn’t deal with my point

          • Kathleen Marion

            And yet Jesus himself said “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

          • holly

            It is because Jesus was Jewish and didn’t celebrate birthdays!

    • jb22

      What career?

    • Wesley Woods

      Kirk is bringing Christ back to the center of Christmas by showing people the real St. Nicholas who loved the triune God and was a great defender of the faith. Kirk release the St. Nicholas segment last week to the public to view in promotion of Saving Christmas. if you would watch it you would see how the real St. Nicholas brings us back to Christ being the reason of Christmas.

      • Neiman

        First, you must learn to read more carefully, I said: “I have never gotten too worked up about Christmas and Santa Claus, as
        from my youth of more that 6.5 decades ago, I felt as long as Christ was
        honored and it was a time to testify about Jesus, there was no reason
        to get on a soap box. I have always enjoyed this season.”

        I even defended Kirk and with less than enthusiasm his general message.

        From there, as I expected, because people got worked up about defending Kirk and Santa Claus and it seems they wanted to defend the holiday becoming less about Jesus, mostly Catholics launched a lot of attacks against me. It was strange and again expected, the more I defended Christ, the angrier they got at me. It is the spirit of the age, which is anti-Christ.

      • Kathleen Marion

        considering the FACT that Christ was NEVER the center that is quite an absurd statement. The celebration of Saturnalia was a sexual orgy of debauchery used by Constantine. He reasoned more people would come to faith in Jesus if they were allowed to keep their unholy pagan holidays so he slapped the name of Jesus into it called it his birthday aka Christmas, which by the way if you understand what the word Mass means you are saying Merry Christ’s death which has nothing to do with his birth. God’s word tells us to have nothing to do with darkness, nothing to do with the way the pagans honored their gods, yet you choose the traditions of men over the Word of God!

        And where does it say to keep the tradition of Jesus’ birth? NO WHERE! In fact it says NOT to use pagan elements to honor God because he hates them. Deut 12:29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? I ALSO WILL DO LIKEWISE.’ 31 YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; FOR EVERY ABOMINATION TO THE LORD WHICH HE HATES THEY HAVE DONE TO THEIR GODS; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

        “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. What have you added? A pagan holiday with the name of Jesus slapped on to make it appear pleasing to God, but he said he hates it and you still keep your traditions of men over the word of God. And yet you would say God knows my heart, yes he does, he knows you choose traditions of men over his word, your heart is rebellious!

        • Wesley Woods

          it is true that we have no idea of when Christ was born, but we now exactly when the Jews celebrate their festival of lights on the 25th day of the tenth month to the 3rd of the eleventh month. guess what the 25th of December was the 25th day of the tenth month before Pope Gregory the Great moved the beginning of the year to January to align it better with the feast of the holy name which is celebrated on the 3rd of January. it is just a coincidence that the pagan saturnalia was at the same time of year that the Jews celebrate their festival of lights. the Sacred Scriptures tell us that Jesus is the light of world and what better time for his birth than during a feast that the Jews celebrate God’s miracle of lights at Hanukkah.

  • Kevin Lawrence

    My question to Christians, Is, if it has been proven that Christ was born in the summer, why do Christians continue to celebrate his birth in the winter, at the same time as the supposedly Catholic Christmas?

    • Neiman

      It has not been proven when He was born, what season or time of year and if we are truly, sincerely, with all our hearts honoring the birth of Christ, it is not a big deal if it is observed in December, it is Who we are honoring that matters. Although, it can be argued that Scripture does not call for such a celebration at all and the Spirit through Paul insists we treat every day as alike unto the Lord.

    • Michelle

      I have heard anecdotal evidence of this but nothing definitive. I would like to see this proof. I have also heard be was born March 25th.

    • lucy b

      yes based upon the time of year they collected taxes back the. Also many believe Jesus was born in a cave not a manger or a barn type building. Also the true Sabbath is Saturday so the commandments are broken each time we/you attend Sunday services or Sunday school or Sunday Mass

      • Neiman

        Yes the Sabbath is Saturday, that is the Old Covenant for the Jews, but we Christians are not under the Law as were the Jews, but we are under Grace and the Apostles met on the First Day of the week, while the Holy Spirit tells us we are not to hold one day above another, but treat every day as unto the Lord equally.

        • Debbie

          Without the law we have no need for Christ. The law is the best argument for not celebrating Christmas. Yet you don’t argue with the celebration, the tree, or the obsession, only the Santa observation. I know Jeremiah 10 talks about idols, do you not think we get a little carried away with our trees and treat them like idols as we sit there and admire our beautiful Christmas trees. Not only did Jesus observe Sabbath so did the apostles after the death and resurrection. Jesus makes clear he only does the will of GOD, as he is the son of GOD and GOD is unchanging. The Sabbath is for us Jesus states in Mark 2:27-28 The pagan traditions are so deeply rooted in us that we will argue over the observation or non-observation. If you try to fast from Halloween or Christmas you have to put up with Christians dogging you for lack of joy or being a party pooper. I say to each his own and just leave Jesus out of it, it does not bring him honor. What brings him honor is loving each other and loving the Father as he did. Honor the Heavenly Father like the earthly father with obedience, just a thought. The Law tells us the feast God wants us to observe, as Christians leaning heavily on Christ we miss important lessons learned through observation of God designed feast. God Bless.

          • Neiman

            A. The subject here was Santa Claus, not these other things.
            B. The Law only kills, it cannot bring life.
            C. Everything you said above is false about what Scripture teaches.

  • http://keepchristinchristmas.info/keep_christ_in_christmas Christ4Christmas

    santa claus as we commonly know him is NOT Saint Nicholas, and he is diverting people from the True meaning of Christmas! Get a FREE Download of the song KEEP CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS and listen to the lyrics.
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  • Kristi Winters

    First of all, Roman Catholics ARE christians and how dare you say they are unbelievers. 2nd, we honor generous people who donate time and or money all of the time, St Nicholas is no different. Santa Claus if taught appropriately, can help children learn to be generous in a way the understand.
    As for the celebration of Halloween, I allow my children to participate and as I am walking with them for trick or treat, I give out information about the love of Jesus. How can you be christian and be this judgemental toward someone who is sharing and celebrating the Christian faith so publicly and getting the message to so many.

    • Neiman

      There is a difference between members of the RCC having come to Jesus and Jesus alone, by faith, for Salvation. Not to the RCC or any dependence upon Mary or any so-called saints, but have solely, by grace, through faith been converted to Christ, they are thus Christians, even if many of their practices are not honoring Christ. Being a Roman Catholic saves no one and as many Catholics believe that to be saved one is saved by the Catholic Church, they are not Christians at all.

      • Kirk Huffman

        Seeing as how neither catholic nor christian have been able to meet their burden of proof regarding the claims they are making, isn’t it entirely possible that neither religion is actually true?

        • James Grimes

          No, it’s not possible.

          • Kirk Huffman

            Ok, so now you have made a positive claim regarding the potential veracity of Catholicism and Christianity, meaning you now bear a burden of proof regarding that claim. I would love to hear your evidence.

          • James Grimes

            As you are an Atheist (or Antitheist), I do not owe you any explanation. This is a Christian forum.

          • Kirk Huffman

            Incorrect sir. Peter 3:15 clearly says that you must always be prepared to defend the reasons for your faith. There doesn’t appear to be any caveat about being on a Christian versus secular forum. Although I cannot say I’m surprised. An American Christian actually following the teaching of the bible rather than just using them as an excuse for self righteousness is kind of rare.

        • Sheldon Walton

          What “Burden of Proof” is need, for ‘Faith”?

          • bigpawn01

            you are catching on sheldon your almost there.good work my friend. faith is belief with absence of evidence.nothing wrong with that but i do find a problem with those who claims of being factual with out any evidence.

          • Kirk Huffman

            For faith and faith alone, absolutely none. However, faith is an inherently subjective concept. Subjective concepts don’t have any value or meaning outside of the perceptions of the one who has them. This is why the modern world is no longer based on any individuals perceptions and instead is based on objective evidence, reasoned arguments and that which can be repeatedly demonstrated; this is the burden of proof. If you expect people who are outside of your particular faith to accept a claim as true you must meet your burden of proof.

        • Jana McDuff Hagan

          Do you know everything there is to know? Do you know at least 50% of what there is to know? In that 50% of what you don’t know, isn’t it possible that God is real? Can you at least admit that?

          • bigpawn01

            nope their may be a god but it certainly is not the christian god and if their is one he/she/it appears to have no interest in make their self known.

          • Kirk Huffman

            Is it possible that a divine being such as the Christian God exists? Absolutely. Has that been demonstrated? No. Is it possible that a pantheon of beings such as the Hindus believe exist? Absolutely. Has that been demonstrated? Nope. If some kind of divine being does exist, does that automatically prove the specific claims regarding morality, afterlife, origins, salvation and so forth made by one particular religion to the exclusion of all others? No it does not. Is it rational to accept the claims made by one group to the exclusion of all others BEFORE that group has proven their claims? No, it is not. Had you been paying attention and not just looking for an excuse to flex your self righteousness muscles you would have noticed I never denied the existence of God, or the possibility thereof. I said that since neither Catholics nor Christians have been able to prove what they are claiming that it’s possible neither are actually right.

        • Neiman

          We are not talking about religion, which has caused more harm than it is possible to imagine. We are talking about salvation and that has nothing to do with religion, it is a living relationship wherein He lives His life in and through each believer. It is obtained by the Grace of God alone, a free unmerited gift of God, it is by faith alone and that faith is of Christ Jesus and is in Christ alone as Savior and Lord. That is the only Truth regarding Salvation and eternal life with God.

          • winteryblackknight

            Nothing to do with religion? Religion is about a belief system. Christ said “I am the way the truth and the life, there is no way to the Father but through Me”. He also commanded his Apostles “to teach all that I have commanded you baptizing them and if they no not believe they will be comdemned” Mark. It’s more than an expression of faith. It’s accepting everything He stands for – the truth. Baptism, communion, foregiveness of sins – it is all a system of belief, religion.

          • Neiman

            Sorry, it is about a personal relationship with Christ, intimate communion with Him, a new birth in Christ, it is not about things, rules, regulations, Once born again and Christ is living His life in and through our own, we will find ourselves, in His love doing no harm to others and that is the fulfilling of the Law.

          • winteryblackknight

            You mean you can claim a personal relationship with Christ but deny that He resurrected from the dead or deny that abortion is evil. Everything I mentioned builds a relationship with Christ. Stop being such a tool of Satan confusing everyone to lead them subtlely away from Christ

          • Neiman

            You are so filled with lies today, may God forgive you.

            I have NEVER denied His resurrection – NEVER! I have always opposed abortion as evil, as being mass murder of innocent souls, a national baby holocaust.

            Yet, I rejoice that as they lied about my Lord, when you lie against me, I rejoice in walking with and in Christ.

          • winteryblackknight

            I was raising a question to challenge your assertion. You said Chirst is not about rules or laws but commandments are laws or rules. Christ said if you love Me you will keep My commandments. But you imply that keeping his commandments is not essential. Can you have an intimate relationship without fidelity?

          • Neiman

            He was not referring to the Ten Commandments, it was this “34”A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35″By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

            Yes, if His love is really in us, if He is living in and through our lives, as His Love would not steal, commit adultery, murder, etc, walking in His Love, we would by that new nature be following the moral commandments of God. But, it would not be by our will power, it would not be a conscious thing, it would not be in a desire to earn anything, it would be the fruit of His Nature in us.

          • winteryblackknight

            No disagreement there. Paul said sonething about changing our hearts through His grace. But fear of hell can still initially motivate us until we grow in grace to love like Christ’s love. It is not an instantaneous event. That’s why Paul said “with fear and trembling work out your salvation. It still requires some act of the will on our part to cooperate with grace.

          • Jesse

            Agape love is a given gift…

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: The 10 Commandments would not have been given unless man was able to keep them. If we break just one of them we broke them all according to scripture. We were to follow them all and we do not do that. JESUS did say if we loved him we would keep His commandments. Which ones was He talking about? Is not one as important as the other? Can we just pick and chose which ones we wish to keep and ignore the rest? The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. We may be saved by grace, but we are judged by our works. These two new commandments did not blot out all the other 10. If you have 10 pair of shoes and I bring you two new pair, do you just get rid of the 10 that you had and only wear the two new ones? No you continue wearing all of the shoes not just the two new ones. What if I tell you that the two new ones are the best two, the most expensive two and the best looking two, does that matter? You will wear all of them. Same analogy here.

          • Jesse

            Where is ‘judged by our works’ found in scripture?

          • wandakate

            JESSE: Here you are again…Try Revelation 22:12…And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his WORK shall be.
            You might also want to read 14…He tells us how important it will be to keep His commands. 14. Blessed are they that DO His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Looks like those commandments were important to Him even to the end.
            Can faith alone save? James 2:14…What does it profit my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?
            17. Even so faith if it has not works is dead, being alone.
            In 2:24…You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            1Peter 1:17…And if you call on the FATHER, who without respect of persons JUDGES according to every man’s WORK, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear.
            25…But the word of the LORD endures forever. (FOREVER), never changes.
            1Peter 4:17…For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at the house of GOD; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that OBEY NOT the gospel of GOD?
            This should be sufficient. We are taught that we have nothing to do but sit back and bask in GOD’s wonderful grace, a message of hyper grace. There is more to it than that.

          • Jesse

            Here again your last sentence implies that salvation is the results of “works” that are established, and once again I will point out that all of everybodies christian works will accomplish nothing but establish their place in God’s chain of command in the afterlife… Here’s a verse in Jesus’ words that explains that ‘works’ establish a heavenly reward. Only belief and faith in Jesus is required for salvation. The verse does NOT mean that salvation is the reward.

            Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

          • Jesse

            Your posts are very poorly presented, and then you try and blame it on someone else. I have no responsibility for your false teachings, they are all yours alone. Establishing a contradiction does not correct the false teaching.

          • Jesse

            Really?

          • Neiman

            His Commandment, His only commandment, is to Love one another as He loved us and in that, albeit not by consciously striving to obey the law by the power of the flesh, we will find ourselves fulfilling the moral Laws of God, because Love does no harm.

            You do not know the difference between the works of Law of Moses and good works of the Spirit. Law and Grace are wholly contradictory to one another.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: The first set of tables were crushed when Moses threw them on the ground. GOD made the second set, written on tablets of stone by the finger of GOD Himself. They were not to be done away with. I never said we had to justify our salvation by our works, as we are in fact saved by His grace, but we will be judged by our works. We don’t need to work to earn our salvation but once we are saved then works will follow. Faith without works is dead. Funny that steps on the toes of Christians, as if they feel it’s just “super grace” and nothing more. JESUS used the word “IF” a lot, and the word, “OBEY” also. We were commanded to obey. Most Christians don’t want to obey, they just want the easy way out with the least amount of effort on their part. So, it wasn’t the law of Moses, they were the laws of GOD, that were not abolished at the cross.

          • Neiman

            Galatians 2: 16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that
            we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

            No matter how many passages directly or by inference show that no man will be saved by obedience to the law, so many of you people try to sneak the Law into the back door, forcing it into the word “works.” You simply cannot have Grace and the Law together as a means of salvation, you must choose one or the other.

            When Jesus talks about obedience to Law, He means his law, the law of love. He is not talking about the law of Moses or even the 10 Commandments; except as a means to cause frustration, to cause discouragement that men are driven to give up, to surrender to the idea that they cannot earn salvation, maintain their salvation or even please God by any acts of the weak, sinful flesh. Thus driven to the end of all self effort, of all attempts to place ourselves on his throne by thinking we can earn our salvation or his good pleasure, we are thus ready to surrender to salvation only as a free gift of his mercy, which is grace. Wherein, Jesus fulfills the law perfectly for us, on our behalf, and by faith in His perfect obedience, it is credited to our account. Therefore no man has any cause to boast before God that they were better than someone else, because they obeyed the law a little better than anyone else. Therefore all honor and glory goes to God.

            I was always impressed by the idea that when the Patriarchs and the Apostles and the Saints bowed down in heaven before God in worship, they all cast their crowns, symbolic of both salvation and any heavenly rewards, before the feet of Christ. Why? Because they know that absolutely no credit is due them for their salvation or the least good works done while in this life, that all were to the glory of God in Christ Jesus. If we are saved, if we seemingly do anything good, it will be and it must be because of the work of Christ in us, by God’s free grace. So, if we glory in anything it will be in Christ and Him only.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: As I have said before. GOD’s grace is free, but our crowns in Heaven will come by our works in this life on this earth. Faith and Works compliment one another and that is what it says. We are saved by his grace, and it’s free, but we are going to be judged by our works. You have a problem with works/deeds? This sounds selfish. All the Christians that have a problem with works sound selfish and they are just ME people. Wanting to sit back and no nothing but have faith and think they are okay and I think they are going to be in for a big surprise…Deceived, so deceived. Satan has blinded their eyes to the truth of the word. They read but they don’t understand. We are first saved and then we work. We don’t work for our salvation. People need to stop twisting words. I NEVER said we were saved by our works, just the opposite.

          • Neiman

            By your idea of works, you think you can be better than the next fellow, if you work a little harder and are a little more self-righteous. No my friend, these good works in the Bible are the fruits of the Holy Spirit and while he works in and through us, none of it is to our credit, it is all to the glory of God, glory which you want to deny him.

            If I am an alcoholic and I lose all desire for alcohol, wherein do I get any credit for just acting according to the new desires within? It is the same way with good works, if I am born again and the Holy Spirit dwells within me and contrary to my normal selfish attitudes, I now have a new desire to only be generous and kind to others, where in is the credit to me, when it is the Holy Spirit bringing the nature of Christ into my life? So as I, by the Holy Spirit within me, by Him renewing my mind, I consider myself crucified with Christ and the old man dead; and I now walk according to the spirit within me, not by self will, but by his power, where in is the credit to me?

            There shall be before God no glorying in the flesh, no boasting, we will rejoice and giving all the honor and glory to the Lord. Well, except you who will rattle off a list of all of your accomplishments in the flesh on his behalf and expect rewards and credit, because you earned of them, right?

            You are in desperate need of daily crucifying your old man by the power of the Holy Spirit, of walking only in the Spirit and of seeing Jesus as the sole source of your supply to meet every exigency of this life and eternity and you glorying in Him in all things, until then you are still in the flesh and not the Spirit.

          • swtrainer

            winterblackknight – seems like you are challenging an assertion that Neiman didn’t make. He said nothing that questioned or denied the resurrection of Christ and he said nothing regarding abortion. Nothing that Neiman said I would interpret as a reason to call him a tool of Satan. Your remarks seem to make you the crackpot here.

          • winteryblackknight

            I was raising a question, an if to point out that a little more than an expression of faith is required. We have to accept what is taught as truth because Christ is the truth. You can’t say you accept Christ and reject dogma – defined truth. Anyone who leads people astray or confuses people even without intent is in some way acting on Satan’s behalf. That’s why Christ said to Peter “get behind me Satan”. We know Peter didn’t know any better.

          • JustMe

            WinteryBlackKnight- Seems you may have guilt issues and taking it out on a Christian that makes total sense and is speaking the truth. Are you Catholic? If so, where does it say that Catholics are allowed to attack a fellow Christian??? Do you not see, by you doing such a thing, the devil is rolling around in laughter?! …Do you not realize we are all on the same team in our Lord and Savior? I respect the Catholic Church, but there has been more outreach from Protestants as I’ve seen. That’s not the way God wants His children to behave. If we don’t join together, we will be destroyed in some form or fashion.

          • winteryblackknight

            No I don’t have guilt issues. I otherwise like your reponse and agree with it but I think you are misinterpreting my intent, I was speaking hypothetically when I brought the points of the resurrection and abortion to make a point about what faith in Jesus must entail – that it is more than a simple expression of belief. Neiman hasn’t exactly been charitable in his responses and has made statements that are to say the least inaccurate.

          • wandakate

            JUSTME: The unity that JESUS spoke of was the unity to create ONE NEW MAN. It’s all in a book by Sid Roth. He wanted the Jews and the Gentiles to join together in their thoughts so that “they” could be on one page in unity with the FATHER and SON.
            Joining the Catholics with the Christians and the Muslims is NOT what He had in mine. We are deceived. The farther away from GOD we go the happier satan will be.

          • winteryblackknight

            I was raising a question to challenge your assertion. You said Chirst is not about rules or laws but commandments are laws or rules. Christ said if you love Me you will keep My commandments. But you imply that keeping his commandments is not essential. Can you have an intimate relationship without fidelity?

          • JustMe

            Seems to me, like you are trying to put words in a persons mouth.

          • winteryblackknight

            It may seem that way but I was making a point that faith in Jesus requires an aceptance of certain essential truths and not just a simple statement of faith.

          • wandakate

            WINTERYBLACKKNIGHT: Faith in JESUS does require an acceptance of truth. JESUS loved the truth. Example: He also loved our works/deeds. He even said, “The harvest is plentiful, but the WORKERS are few”. Sounds like He knew the need was there but the people to “work” were few and far between.
            James told us that our faith without our works is dead. Think about that, no matter how strong our faith is, if we don’t have any works for the Kingdom of GOD to back up that faith, it’s dead…Serious stuff. We were told that Christianity is caring for the widows and the orphans in their affliction. By works “after” we are saved is how we please the LORD. We can’t earn our salvation, no, not at all, but once we are saved, then we work for the Kingdom of GOD at every opportunity we can. JESUS said, IF you love me, keep my commandments. He was talking about keeping all 10 of them, not blotting out the 4th one or any of the rest. We don’t listen. We will be judged for that.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: JESUS came to establish the law. The Bible may say fulfil but in the translation it means establish. The 10 Commandments never were done away with at the cross. That is a man-made teaching which is false. It is a personal relationship with JESUS only. The old nature leaves and the mind of CHRIST enters. We may be saved by grace, BUT we will be judged by our works. Faith without works is dead.

          • Jesse

            Please show us scriptures that require works for salvation, as most real Christians believe that good works will only establish rank or position in “life”

          • wandakate

            JESSE: Did you not read the other comment that I wrote? I NEVER SAID THAT SALVATION REQUIRES WORKS… Our faith without our works is dead. FIRST we are saved by the grace of GOD, and THEN we do the good deeds/works.
            JESUS even said that the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. He knew there was WORK to be done, and not enough WILLING WORKERS…You are trying to twist things around for your purpose, “not working here”. There are NO scriptures that require works for salvation, and I NEVER once said there were any.

          • Jesse

            I have no ‘agenda’ to cause me to attempt to create a lie out of scripture. I am once again guilty of responding to the suggestion of your statement which was as follows;

            “We may be saved by grace, BUT we will be judged by our works. Faith without works is dead.” This statement from you seems to suggest that Christians gain the opportunity to be judged on the quality of their lives, and that that opportunity is what the ‘grace’ means. I know you are not stupid and can do a much better job of relating your meanings in your posts. Also you may want to review the truths that I have included in my other posts.

          • Neiman

            Romans Three: “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”

            You are terribly confused about the difference between works of the Law and good works of the Spirit, you are further confused about the term “faith without works is dead.”

            No one can deny that the Holy Spirit through Paul said that we are saved only by the grace of God through faith and that faith in and by Jesus Christ in us, not of any works of the flesh, meaning not by works of the law, or to say it in another way, not by conscious obedience to the law of Moses, which works only to bring about a consciousness of sin and it only results in spiritual death. That is because the standard of the law of Moses is absolute perfect obedience, the slightest failure produces spiritual death.

            That all being perfectly true and knowing that the Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself, James in talking of works cannot possibly mean conscious obedience to the law to either gain or maintain our salvation, he too stands by Grace. Rather he is referring to “good works;” of and by the Holy Spirit within, it is teaching that if a person might claim to be saved, but if we find no “good works of God’s love” toward the brethren and the world in them, having produced no fruits of the Spirit in them, which are all based on God’s Love, we must conclude that person did not have a genuine conversion in the spirit.

            The only commandment Jesus gave to His Church is to love one another – which can only be His Love in and through us, now if we love one another truly in the love of Christ, as examples; we would not steal from them or commit adultery against our spouse, as that would not be love. So it is not a matter of consciously trying by the power of the flesh to obey the law of God, the love of God in us will cause us, by virtue of our new Spirit nature, to fulfill the moral commandments of God in His Love, not by any willful act of the flesh.

            Grace and Law are wholly opposed to one another, they are wholly contradictory, they are oxymoron’s. You cannot possibly be saved as the result of a free gift of God’s Grace, which is only obtained by faith, His faith in us; and then try and either gain or keep that gift by works of Law of death, it is an insult to God’s Mercy, blasphemous in the extreme in the face of the sacrifice of Christ and is heresy.

          • Joy Lowery

            You said it yourself ” religion is a belief system.” Even atheists are religious.

          • winteryblackknight

            Yes that’s true. It comes down to what is the correct belief system; which one has the truth. Christ said the truth will set you free.

          • Joy Lowery

            That would be my personal relationship with Jesus Christ that in fact has set me free…

          • jennylynn

            Religion is man trying to reach God by his own merrits.
            Christianity is God coming down to man and saving us by His righteousness alone.

          • Joy Lowery

            I agree…

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org John1429dotorg

            To eliminate doubt…God gave us the definition of what a Christian is…

            Philippians 3:3 “For we are the circumcision (Deut 30:6), which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh (Gal 5:19).”

            And confirmed by James…

            James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless (Gen 20:11) and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world (1 John 2:16).”

            If this world has ANY type of grip on you…you are not a Christian. The Father knows you are going to mess up (1 John 1:9) but if you work INIQUITY, which is known sin, then you will perish in your sins. Now look around…how many CHristians do you see, who profess the Name, and are actually unspotted from the world? Jesus found only 8 in Noah’s day…the ENTIRE planet was wicked…suppose a few in that bunch thought they were Christians, yet the “flood came and destroyed them all? If man doesn’t take a real good look at the Ten Commandments, realize that he is in sin (by the law in the knowledge of sin) and ask the Lord Jesus to come into His life to keep the Law of God for him (written in the heart and mind, Heb 10:16), then that man’s religion is vanity.

            Now as for the RCC…

            http://www.remnantofgod.org/666-CHAR.htm

          • jennylynn

            Excellent! Yes, the Ten Commandments is the tutor to lead people to Christ. Galations 3:24
            Very well said!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I believe that “Here” God not only gives a “Description” of what a “Christian” is, but, also what a “Saint” is as follows;

            Revelation 14:12 (KJV)

            12 “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”.

            Sounds pretty clear to me, and, the “Simplicity” of it all is that it is in “One Simple Sentence”, and needs no “Other Scriptures” to give it any “Support”, as these are the Words Of Jesus Christ, which were given to His Servant John.
            “BLESSED ARE THEY THAT READ & HEAR THESE WORDS”

            Revelation 1:2-3 (KJV)

            2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

            3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org John1429dotorg

            Amen brother! The devil wants people to believe the Law of God, perfect, holy, and true, is ABOLISHED! It’s the Law that points out sin! It defines it! It people looked into it then they would know just how DESPERATELY they need Jesus! If the Law could be changed why did Jesus have to die? He is the Lawgiver! That’s what this whole controversy is about…two sides of the Law…the devil trying to prove before the WHOLE universe that nobody can do it God’s way…and God giving Satan 6000 years to see that His way is the ONLY way! Well spoken.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes, John….from the very beginning, when Eve was tempted to Eat The Apple she knew that in doing so she was “Disobeying God’s Commandment” in which God said; “Do Not Eat Of This Tree, for when you Eat Of It – YOU WILL SURELY DIE”.

            It wasn’t what “She Learned From The Tree” that causes her to die…It was “Breaking God’s Commandment” that causes her to die, and that “Sin” has been continued down all these Generations to this very day.

            After all…”What Is Sin”?

            Sin the the “Breaking Of God’s Commandments”.

            What is the “Penalty Of Sin”?

            It is “Death”.

            God is the same now, just as God was always from “Everlasting to Everlasting”. God is NOT A LIAR, and God “Loves His Law”, in which God said to the Israelite’s….”SEE, I HAVE LAID BEFORE YOU LIFE & DEATH – CHOOSE LIFE”!!

            God said this AFTER he gave them His “Commandments”.

            God is very CLEAR in the Book of ISAIAH that “He Is PLEASED” with His LAW….

            Isaiah 42:21
            21 It pleased the Lord
            for the sake of his righteousness
            to make his law great and glorious.

            So….is God no longer “Pleased With His Own Laws”???

            Of course not.

            To God, His LAW is “Great & Glorious”, and God is PLEASED.

            There is NOWHERE in the Bible that “God Says” He is NO LONGER PLEASED IN HIS LAW……BUT, IT DOES SAY, MULTIPLE TIMES, EVEN MORE TIMES THAN CAN BE COUNTED THAT……THAT GOD IS “NOT PLEASED WITH MAN”, WHO HAS FORSAKEN THE LAWS OF GOD.

            This is NO ARGUMENT that can eliminate God’s Wrath toward the WICKED who have forsaken God’s Laws.

            While they themselves may CLAIM THEY ARE SAVED, God is very clear that THEY ARE NOT.

            Several times God says; “THESE PEOPLE WILL NOT ENTER MY REST, AND I SHALL SHOW THEM NO PITY, OR MERCY WHEN THEY CRY OUT TO ME, FOR THEY DID NOT LISTEN TO ME WHEN I CRIED OUT TO THEM”.

            Even if I were WRONG in all the things God said about His Law….I WOULD RATHER “ERROR OF THE SIDE OF GOD’S LAWS, THAN TO DISCARD THEM AS MEANINGLESS, FOR THEN TOO HAVE I TURNED MY BACK ON GOD”.

            I will not wait around for “God’s Grace” to save me, when God clearly said to those WHO OBEY MY LAWS (The Righteous) – “TELL THEM IT WILL BE WELL WITH THEM, FOR THEY SHALL RECEIVE REWARDS FOR ALL THEIR DEEDS. BUT, WOE TO THE WICKED WHO HAVE FORSAKEN MY LAWS, FOR THEY SHALL BE DEVOURED BY THE SWORD”

            Isaiah 3:10-1110

            10 Tell the righteous it will be well with them,
            for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.
            11 Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them!
            They will be paid back for what their hands have done.

            My FAVORITE, of course is PSALM 1….

            Psalm 1

            1 Blessed is the one
            who does not walk in step with the wicked
            or stand in the way that sinners take
            or sit in the company of mockers,

            2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
            and who meditates on his law day and night.

            3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
            which yields its fruit in season
            and whose leaf does not wither—
            whatever they do prospers.

            4 Not so the wicked!
            They are like chaff
            that the wind blows away.
            5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
            nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

            6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
            but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

          • bigpawn01

            wrong try again. this is just you trying to say your religion is better or more real than others religion.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Whoa, I thought Christianity was about your personal relationship with Jesus. What I hear in these few words is that man can do whatever he/she wants to do regardless of what the bible says and God will just swoop down and carry you up? Keep in mind that it really seemed to matter what the bible said before this. But trying to be a good person like Jesus was, acting unselfish and stuff will get me no where? Well that explains why you think it is okay to say your way is the best way, and that all others are wrong, if I were as special as you are I world want to hold on to that belief to. What good things do you do for other people? Unpaid stuff on your own time? Why or why not?

          • jennylynn

            Amy,
            It is no MY WAY that is the best. It is JESUS’ WAY. John 14:6
            I guess you are a litttle confused.

            Thats ok, I forgive you!

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Thank you and you didn’t answer my questions.

          • jennylynn

            Amy,
            If you were referring to the last post about arguing, I wasn’t arguing. You were asking for facts and I was simply stating them according to the Catholic Church. Although you made it clear that you really don’t want facts, but prefer the doctrinal errors of the Catholic Church. I lovingly encourage you to check out the beliefs of this institution before you attack me. I understand your need to be defensive, but just check everything out.
            http://Www.carm.org. Go to te catholic beliefs and you will see everything documented with referces for you. I don’t think I need to say much more. Love is snatching those from the fire.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I don’t want the answers from your organization I’m asking for yours. I’m asking first and foremost what you do for others on your own time, I’m also asking you for the facts to back up what you call fax. define attacking.

          • jennylynn

            First of all these were answers from your organization posted for Christians and others to see. They are not hidden. Second of all I do not seek approval of man. What I do to serve Jesus is between me and Him. I am not looking for your approval. What I do is out of my love for Him. I do not score points serving Him, it is my life’s purpose! Your tone, was very unkind and sarcastic. When people care about people’s salvation they want to warn them. The Catholic Church bases salvation on faith+ works which is added to what Christ said was finished. That is a damnable heresy that needs to be brought to light. Ephesians 5:11
            Don’t take what I say. Look at the catholic teaching and pray about it.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            My organization? I am a Christian. I also believe that “works” are vital to understanding the point of view of others, and in learning to be tolerant of the views of others. I’m not judging you, I’m questioning you about your ideas. Anyone can quote scripture, and most of what is in the bible is applicable to anything when taken out of context in snippets. No one is keeping score of good deeds, but what I’m asking about is how you act on what you believe. Do you know absolutely that what you’re saying is the only way? What if you have chosen the wrong one and spend your living existence persecuting the right way. Personally I think solely choosing the wrong path is forgivable. But what if you choose the wrong path and persecuted them, does it look differently to you? Would you consider yourself to be tolerant of other people’s ideas about religion?

          • jennylynn

            I am not sure what your definition of Christian is but it is not my definition. You seem like your emergent. You asked if I am absolutely sure if Jesus is the Only way. The answer is yes. John 14:6 All other religions are johnny come lately lies.
            Have you not studied prophesy? Choosing the wrong path is not forgivable, it is a death sentence. Only the blood of Christ can save you from hell. No one else or other way is qualified. True love is saving people from hell which doesn’t seem to concern you. Jesus spoke of hell 167 times, i think He is serious. Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Am i tollerant of other views? Everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but I am obligated to preach the truth to them if they will listen. That is the calling of every true Christian to snatch them from the fire if possible. Jude 1:23
            Blessings!

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            But you are NOT preaching the truth, you are spreading lies. You probably don’t know it, but you are. Those are not true things said on that website!

          • jennylynn

            Please prove it with back up.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I am not emergent I am not catholic I am not anything, I was raised Lutheran. I believe in the teachings of Christianity, and I have no desire to convert you to anything!

            John 14:6
            This is from Bible gateway.com the NIV

            Let’s break this ENTIRE passage down because it is important to see all of what the story is….

            14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me.

            I hear Jesus telling his disciples that God his father has given him the okay to speak for Him (God)

            2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

            There is plenty of room for all of you to come, why would I lie to you?

            3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

            Here is a problematic statement: this is a promise that no one can verify, what are your thoughts on this passage?

            4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
            5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

            These disciples, (bless Thomas he is my favorite) are just not picking up on the metaphors are they?

            6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

            I hear: You must believe in me/accept me in order to get to God

            7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

            This indicates that Jesus is God himself, in my opinion.

            8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

            In these verses Jesus is not just hinting that he and his father are one in the same he is telling them “I am the father!” This is where we get the complicated idea of the trinity that Francis Bacon and St. Thomas among other pained to explain and reconcile.

            10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

            Jesus tells his disciples “My father and I are one in the same!” is that what you hear too?

            11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

            Here is your WORKS–this is the logic behind the Catholic teachings of doing good things for others!

            12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

            Here Jesus is directing his followers to continue to do good and bring his message to others (I believe we should not only speak we should show–that actions and words together SHOW another we are willing to do the work –I mean what I say–Just as Jesus directs us to!

            13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

            Here Jesus is telling us that he is not only requesting us to serve but is willing to serve us as well! Would you agree?

            You asked if I am absolutely sure if Jesus is the Only way.
            No I asked if your way was the only way, and by that I meant the framework offered by CARM.org sorry if that was unclear.
            This portion is a little confusing to me–> John 14:6 All other religions are johnny come lately lies. (Are you saying that John 14:6 states all other religions are lies?)

            Have you not studied prophesy?
            I have no idea what Prophesy is, so no I have not. I am eager to learn what it is though 🙂
            I will tell you that I did cut an paste the bible passage into this, however the words after each verse (s) are my own. Thanks for listening.

          • jennylynn

            Hi Amy,
            Let me try to answer all your questions. First of all you need to look at the context of the text. Who is Jesus talking to in John 14? He is talking to His disciples aka followers of Jesus. So when He says in My Fathers house are many mansions, He is speaking to His followers aka Christians. The Catholic Church did not exist till the 3rd century.
            The works Jesus is referring to are miracles or mighty works ( ergon # 2041 in the Greek) these are not works that save you, but works as a result of the power of the Holy Spirit in His disciples. Jesus and God are one. Those who don’t put their faith in Christ are like jumping out of a plane with out a parachute. Your unbelief won’t send you to hell, but your own unrighteousness will. We must put on The Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. He is like the parachute. There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12. Prophecy speaks and points straight to Jesus and proves the God of the Bible Among all other religions. God will not share His glory with no one. Isaiah 42:8
            I think I answered your questions.

          • bigpawn01

            once again you ignore the definition of words religion requires a god. atheism is the rejection of gods. do any of you arseholes even understand the words in the dictionary when you read it?

          • Joy Lowery

            Back up buckwheat! There is more than one definition of religion such as a pursuit of interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance. If you don’t like that one then it is an organized collection of beliefs. One being Atheism. Now cut the name calling…

          • bigpawn01

            fu?

          • Kirk Huffman

            I think you are confusing atheists and antitheists. The root word theist means “One who holds beliefs in the existence of Gods or supreme beings”. An atheist literally means ‘without theism’, or “one who does not hold a belief regarding the existence of Gods or divine beings”. Then at it’s extreme you have Antitheist (sometimes called Strong Atheists) or “those who reject beliefs regarding the existence of God or supreme beings.” you could say that antitheists are religious as they actually hold specific beliefs in relation to the claim of god. Atheist don’t hold a belief regarding God so calling them religious would be like calling bald a hair color.

          • jennylynn

            Religion is man trying to reach God by his own merrits.
            Christianity is Christ became a man to die for man by His righteousness alone.

          • winteryblackknight

            Those are your own definitions. Religion is belief systems. Christianity is divided among many sets if you wish. One of them is the true one.

          • jennylynn

            Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the father but by Him. John 14:6 all other religions are johnny come lately lies. Sects come because of doctrinal issues, people straying from God’s word or misinterpreting it. The foundation remains the rock, ( Jesus Christ) which cannot be altered. His word will prevail. All other religions are works based, therefore they try to reach God by their own merits. Christianity is based on what Christ has done once and for all and opened the door for a personal relationship with us. No other religion can ever compare to that of the living God!

          • winteryblackknight

            I really don’t know what you are referring to but if you think the Catholic Church is works based you are misinformed. The Catholic Church follows the instruction of James – faith without works is dead. You must have faith but your faith must be followed by good works. We perform works in our day to day lives. Our works must serve God and must be directed towards producing good fruit. If you read Mathew 25 it is very clear. The goats lacked good works and were cast into hell.

          • Neiman

            I’m sorry, but I believe you are either grossly ignorant of or are deliberately misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church. They clearly teach that salvation, while available by God’s grace, requires works of the flesh in order to be eligible for that grace and in order to be sure of maintaining their salvation. They mix works of the flesh and grace to , even though they are mutually exclusive as regards salvation.

            James and Paul by the same Holy Spirit, are in perfect harmony. Paul makes it clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith and not of works at all, lest any man should boast. That completely rules out any works of the flesh to either earn or maintain one’s salvation. James simply declares that if one has had a genuine salvation experience, one should see evidence of good works in their lives and if none are in evidence, that their faith was probably a dead faith (false profession) and they never truly came to salvation. The Catholic Church makes those works, those good works, as necessary for salvation or to maintain salvation.

            Also forgive me, but you seem ignorant about sheep and goats. While mixed together in the same flock, sheep represent God’s children, those that have been born again and already have a secure salvation. The goats represent those in that same flock, whose profession of faith is false and that is evident by the fact that they did not produce those good works, because Christ was never in them.

            I am not trying to be rude but it seems you are grossly ignorant about what the Bible teaches and deluded by the false teachings of the Catholic Church

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Wow, I probably will regret this waste of time, but where do you come up with that b.s.?
            I think you are trying to be rude, it is rudeness that makes it appear (and only to yourself) that you have won some argument, that is based on a warrantless claim. Facts are necessary and I have as of yet to see you produce a single one.

          • JustMe

            Yep, you’re right. You probably should’ve just stayed quiet, because what your saying and expecting is a difficult task, especially if one does not want to see it.

          • Jesse

            Looks like he is doing all his posting from the dashboard and so his context is lost.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            After I say a quick prayer on your behalf and request forgiveness on my own behalf, I’m done thinking about your back ass-wards fanatical Christian nonsense, you’re a False prophet.
            Have a blessed happy day Neumann….hope you don’t miss the Seinfeld reference 🙂

          • Neiman

            That’s okay, the Lord tells us that he is the rock of offense, that most human beings are offended by Him and thus by anyone who stands up for Him and with Him. It is unfortunate, but the price believers must pay when they choose to stand with Jesus and against all that is opposed to Jesus. No matter how hard such Christians try, they will offend almost everyone they meet. Not that it excuses us if we are deliberately trying to offend people, but if we are being honest and forthright and bold in the Love of God to turn people from error, it is unfortunate that we will offend most people.

            You’ve done nothing to prove me a prophet at all, let alone no scriptural grounds to prove me a false prophet. If I do not stand up for and with Jesus, if I even hint at any other way unto salvation except by God’s grace, by faith in Jesus, then you might have some justification, not might, you would have justification, but as I confess Jesus and I point to him as the only way unto salvation, you will pardon me if I don’t take your charge very seriously.

          • Jesse

            Please examine the correct definition of the word ‘prophet’

          • Neiman

            I am sorry I must do your work for you, as you are unable to make a point or argue your case. I am happy to educate you.

            1. One who utters divinely inspired revelations: as
            a. often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
            b. capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God’s will
            2: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
            3: one who foretells future events : predictor
            4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
            5 Christian Science
            a : a spiritual seer
            b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth

            Biblical:
            1. To reveal the nature and attributes of God to men.
            2. To make known to men the laws of God.
            3. To call the people back to obedience to God’s laws.
            4. To exhort the people to sincerity in worship.
            5. To warn them of Divine judgment upon sin, both personal and national.
            6. To foretell future events which God had willed.
            7. To foretell the coming of the Messiah, the Savior.
            8. To record the history of God’s dealings with men.
            9. To record the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures.

            As I have never claimed to do any of these things, once again prove your accusations.

          • Jesse

            I wasn’t wanting my work to be done for me, I only thought you wouldn’t accept my point of view without your own research. Which includes this, (4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group )and my point is that any pastor or TEACHER is considered a ‘prophet’ and foretelling or seering is not required for the word to be applied. Since you are teaching here you must be considered a ‘prophet’

          • Neiman

            Okay, I deny being a prophet or teacher, only defending my beliefs; but, for the sake of your emotional needs, we will go with your belief I am acting thus, in that limited way, under that definition. Now, you must offer clear, convincing proof that I am denying Christ or by anything I have stated herein, it is contrary to God’s Word and if anyone accepts what I believe, they will be led into Perdition. Or, you are bearing false witness!

            The ball is now in your court.

          • Jesse

            All I did was point out that since you were teaching, you qualified as a prophet. NOTHING about denying Christ, or Perdition, and how the hell could I have presented any false witness. You may be totally out of your appropriate element, and there IS NO ball…jf…

          • Neiman

            You called me a “false prophet,” if you cannot objectively prove that by Holy Scripture and that demands that I have denied Christ somehow – which would cause others to reject Jesus, you bore false witness against me.

          • Jesse

            Totally lame of you to confuse my posts with those of a chic called Amy. See the picture of a man in a red robe knocking on a door? Those are the ones from me.. I have no intention of proving or disproving the validity of Amy’s posts; thats between you and her.

          • Neiman

            I replied directly to your post and the words therein – so, maybe you are the one that is totally lame.

          • Jesse

            This accurate record of posts in order do not bear out your claim

          • Neiman

            Do me and everyone a big favor, go away, grow up and come back when you can act a bit more mature than a 5-year-old.

            Have a great day.

          • Jesse

            You must be some kind of moron. The exchange between us and Amy is recorded for all time and you can review it but won’t bother even though you have made an absolute fool of yourself…

          • Neiman

            Not willing to even give that grow up thing a try, right?

          • Jesse

            I am not the one who has refused to even review a complaint leveled against me, that is you and likewise the growing up that is needed is also from you. You’re like stubborn three year old that will not take his pill. If you would go back to the ‘blog’ page and read the total exchange you would then see why I’m not giving any. It is because you have made a mistake in who you have addressed and falsely accused me of some statements.

          • Jesse

            I guess you think that since you are an old geezer that everybody else is a school kid?

          • Neiman

            Oh, so you are an ageist, right? Hate them old folk, right?

            My grandson, my best buddy, calls me a geezer and as I call him, lovingly of course, a disrespectful brat – you too are a brat to call me that.

          • Jesse

            You have some real problems Gramps

          • Jesse

            Guess he’s the brains of the outfit…

          • Jesse

            As Per your request Here is the exchange between you and I and Amy and a few others. I wasn’t able to just copy paste it off the comments page but with some difficulty I managed to get this accurate copy for your benefit… My mention of the definition of the word ‘prophet’ is my first reply to you. (ever)

            Neiman winteryblackknight • 6 days ago

            I’m sorry, but I believe you are either grossly ignorant of or are deliberately misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church. They clearly teach that salvation, while available by God’s grace, requires works of the flesh in order to be eligible for that grace and in order to be sure of maintaining their salvation. They mix works of the flesh and grace to , even though they are mutually exclusive as regards salvation.

            James and Paul by the same Holy Spirit, are in perfect harmony. Paul makes it clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith and not of works at all, lest any man should boast. That completely rules out any works of the flesh to either earn or maintain one’s salvation. James simply declares that if one has had a genuine salvation experience, one should see evidence of good works in their lives and if none are in evidence, that their faith was probably a dead faith (false profession) and they never truly came to salvation. The Catholic Church makes those works, those good works, as necessary for salvation or to maintain salvation.

            Also forgive me, but you seem ignorant about sheep and goats. While mixed together in the same flock, sheep represent God’s children, those that have been born again and already have a secure salvation. The goats represent those in that same flock, whose profession of faith is false and that is evident by the fact that they did not produce those good works, because Christ was never in them.

            I am not trying to be rude but it seems you are grossly ignorant about what the Bible teaches and deluded by the false teachings of the Catholic Church

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            Amy Neiman • 6 days ago

            After I say a quick prayer on your behalf and request forgiveness on my own behalf, I’m done thinking about your back ass-wards fanatical Christian nonsense, you’re a False prophet.

            Have a blessed happy day Neumann….hope you don’t miss the Seinfeld reference 🙂

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            William Allen Amy • 4 days ago

            Neiman is a false prophet. I think he left the Westborrow baptist church and opened his own church called the Church of Neiman. He had to. He is so self righteous that he can only agree with his interpretation. If Christ himself corrected Neiman on this forum, he would argue with him and have to get the last word. He’s the “accuser of the brethren”

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            Amy William Allen • 4 days ago

            Is an “AMEN” inappropriate here 😉

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            wandakate William Allen • 4 days ago

            WILLIAM ALLEN: AND Jessie must be the assistant pastor. They both pound down on me for some reason. Just because I gave scriptures directly from the bible they had a problem with it. I said that Faith without works is dead as written in James, and I got stomped on. I think it’s the United Church of Neiman and Jesse.

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            Jesse wandakate • 4 days ago

            I replied to correct your erroneous teachings. No denying that faith without works is dead faith, just not as you have understood and told others. William Allen is not known to me and neither is Neiman and I have not addressed either of them, except one word definition question to Neiman. I am no ones assistant pastor but I will continue to correct your twisted interpretation of scripture because there are always a few here that are new to Christianity.

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            wandakate Jesse • 4 days ago

            JESSE: I have quoted No twisted anything. Everything I wrote you came directly from the KJV of the Holy Bible. Didn’t add a word, didn’t take away a word. You just like to annoy and aggravate others. I didn’t say a word about William Allen. I believe I commented to him but that’s all. I comment to many people which is NO concern of yours. I think you must have missed out on your medicine. You might want to take that now to get your head back together. I only wrote the truth and nothing else. We all understand things differently. I will tell people what the Bible says, that is all I am doing. We don’t need to keep this going, it’s OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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            Jesse wandakate • 8 hours ago

            Sadly; I thought I was trying to help someone who simply misunderstood God’s word, but now careful consideration (possibly with divine revelation) has revealed that you are intentionally pushing an agenda with scriptures taken out of context. (for some purpose I can’t understand) The suggestion and accusation that I “just like to annoy and aggravate others” is idiotic at the very best. (how could that be entertaining enough to cause me to waste my time here?)My whole purpose in life has been to help others as much as I can and this is not the first time it’s made a fool of me. (but even at my age I can ‘live and learn’)

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            Jesse wandakate • 4 days ago

            Here is a reprint of your post to William Allen and if my name is mentioned it is my business regardless of what shallow people think.

            “WILLIAM ALLEN: AND Jessie must be the assistant pastor. They both pound down on me for some reason. Just because I gave scriptures directly from the bible they had a problem with it. I said that Faith without works is dead as written in James, and I got stomped on. I think it’s the United Church of Neiman and Jesse.”

            Your scriptures do not prove or justify the way you have twisted them, and your inability to see the truth presented in God’s word mystifies me.

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            Jesse wandakate • 4 days ago

            No it will never be over as long as you continue to ‘spew’ the confusion. I am still amazed at how little you understand the word of God and how hateful you become when proven wrong. No we do not understand the word of God differently when guided by the Holy Spirit. (except some that don’t listen and learn from the Spirit)

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            Neiman Amy • 6 days ago

            That’s okay, the Lord tells us that he is the rock of offense, that most human beings are offended by Him and thus by anyone who stands up for Him and with Him. It is unfortunate, but the price believers must pay when they choose to stand with Jesus and against all that is opposed to Jesus. No matter how hard such Christians try, they will offend almost everyone they meet. Not that it excuses us if we are deliberately trying to offend people, but if we are being honest and forthright and bold in the Love of God to turn people from error, it is unfortunate that we will offend most people.

            You’ve done nothing to prove me a prophet at all, let alone no scriptural grounds to prove me a false prophet. If I do not stand up for and with Jesus, if I even hint at any other way unto salvation except by God’s grace, by faith in Jesus, then you might have some justification, not might, you would have justification, but as I confess Jesus and I point to him as the only way unto salvation, you will pardon me if I don’t take your charge very seriously.

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            Jesse Neiman • 5 days ago

            Please examine the correct definition of the word ‘prophet’

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            Neiman Jesse • 5 days ago

            I am sorry I must do your work for you, as you are unable to make a point or argue your case. I am happy to educate you.

            1. One who utters divinely inspired revelations: as

            a. often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible

            b. capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God’s will

            2: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet

            3: one who foretells future events : predictor

            4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

            5 Christian Science

            a : a spiritual seer

            b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth

            Biblical:

            1. To reveal the nature and attributes of God to men.

            2. To make known to men the laws of God.

            3. To call the people back to obedience to God’s laws.

            4. To exhort the people to sincerity in worship.

            5. To warn them of Divine judgment upon sin, both personal and national.

            6. To foretell future events which God had willed.

            7. To foretell the coming of the Messiah, the Savior.

            8. To record the history of God’s dealings with men.

            9. To record the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures.

            As I have never claimed to do any of these things, once again prove your accusations.

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            Jesse Neiman • 4 days ago

            I wasn’t wanting my work to be done for me, I only thought you wouldn’t accept my point of view without your own research. Which includes this, (4: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group )and my point is that any pastor or TEACHER is considered a ‘prophet’ and foretelling or seering is not required for the word to be applied. Since you are teaching here you must be considered a ‘prophet’

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            Neiman Jesse • 4 days ago

            Okay, I deny being a prophet or teacher, only defending my beliefs; but, for the sake of your emotional needs, we will go with your belief I am acting thus, in that limited way, under that definition. Now, you must offer clear, convincing proof that I am denying Christ or by anything I have stated herein, it is contrary to God’s Word and if anyone accepts what I believe, they will be led into Perdition. Or, you are bearing false witness!

            The ball is now in your court.

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            Jesse Neiman • 4 days ago

            All I did was point out that since you were teaching, you qualified as a prophet. NOTHING about denying Christ, or Perdition, and how the hell could I have presented any false witness. You may be totally out of your appropriate element, and there IS NO ball…jf…

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            Neiman Jesse • 4 days ago

            You called me a “false prophet,” if you cannot objectively prove that by Holy Scripture and that demands that I have denied Christ somehow – which would cause others to reject Jesus, you bore false witness against me.

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            Jesse Neiman • 2 days ago

            Dementia or worse.

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            Neiman Jesse • 2 days ago

            All you have are insults, because you are intellectually handicapped.

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            Jesse Neiman • a day ago

            All you have to do is click on “view comment” to return to the article and the comment string, why are you refusing?

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            Jesse Neiman • a day ago

            I guess you’re right about the handicap, but not the insults. I thought we were discussing and important subject when I initiated the exchange with you, where I asked you to review the real definition of the word prophet. Then you took off with a series of accusations at me based on posts that came from the poster before me. Then I denied your claims and requested you return to the string and study the exchange. You refused my request and continued to level unfounded statements at me which I have revolted from, and I admit I tried to annoy you enough to cause you to return the replies and find out the truth which you have not. I apologize for my tactic of trying to anger you enough to get you to return to the posts, but this will never be resolved untill you review the actual exchange so I’m dropping out. (you old goat)

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            Jesse Neiman • a day ago

            it’s not an insult if it’s true, and you are the half bright, or you would return to the discussion and see the truth…

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            Jesse Neiman • 4 days ago

            Totally lame of you to confuse my posts with those of a chic called Amy. See the picture of a man in a red robe knocking on a door? Those are the ones from me.. I have no intention of proving or disproving the validity of Amy’s posts; thats between you and her.

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            Neiman Jesse • 4 days ago

            I replied directly to your post and the words therein – so, maybe you are the one that is totally lame.

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            Jesse Neiman • 4 days ago

            This accurate record of posts in order does not bear out your claim Stop trying to do all your posting from the dashboard and return to the replys to not be so confused.

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            Neiman Jesse • 4 days ago

            Do me and everyone a big favor, go away, grow up and come back when you can act a bit more mature than a 5-year-old.

            Have a great day.

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            Jesse Neiman • 4 days ago

            You must be some kind of moron. The exchange between us and Amy is recorded for all time and you can review it but won’t bother even though you have made an absolute fool of yourself…

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            Neiman Jesse • 4 days ago

            Not willing to even give that grow up thing a try, right?

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            Jesse Neiman • 3 days ago

            I guess you think that since you are an old geezer that everybody else is a school kid?

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            Neiman Jesse • 3 days ago

            Oh, so you are an ageist, right? Hate them old folk, right?

            My grandson, my best buddy, calls me a geezer and as I call him, lovingly of course, a disrespectful brat – you too are a brat to call me that.

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            Jesse Neiman • a day ago

            Guess he’s the brains of the outfit…

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            Jesse Neiman

            I suppose that if you are serious about being a Christian you will want to apologize for your mistake that created this debacle, but that is not necessary because in the case of a Christian brother or sister I automatically pray for any sin of theirs to be forgiven and likewise forgive them myself 70 times 7.(I still feel like the time I have spent on this has been stolen from me.)

          • Neiman

            Thank you, I am not interested in this any longer, you may fight with yourself. Had you simply corrected my error that it was Amy that called me a false prophet and you were only talking about the definition of a prophet, immediately, when you saw there was a misunderstanding, I would have apologized immediately for the error. You chose ridicule and insult and so your upset is of your own making.

            I will never respond to this issue again. It would be better if we avoided each other in the future.

          • Jesse

            You’re going to have to respond to it at least once more, but I can see your strong feelings.
            As you wish, however harboring your unforgiveness is an open invitation to demonization.
            I have explained and apologized for the remarks that I made to try and cause you to return to the string and correct your errors. Avoiding someone that claims to be a Christian is not my way, so you may want to change your ways instead of inviting more unclean spirits into your temple. One more thing; the Geezer and old goat remarks were almost a joke as I am nearly your same age.

          • Jesse

            Dementia or worse.

          • Neiman

            All you have are insults, because you are intellectually handicapped.

          • Jesse

            it’s not an insult if it’s true, and you are the half bright, or you would return to the discussion and see the truth…

          • Jesse

            I guess you’re right about the handicap, but not the insults. I thought we were discussing and important subject when I initiated the exchange with you, where I asked you to review the real definition of the word prophet. Then you took off with a series of accusations at me based on posts that came from the poster before me. Then I denied your claims and requested you return to the string and study the exchange. You refused my request and continued to level unfounded statements at me which I have revolted from, and I admit I tried to annoy you enough to cause you to return the replies and find out the truth which you have not. I apologize for my tactic of trying to anger you enough to get you to return to the posts, but this will never be resolved untill you review the actual exchange so I’m dropping out. (you old goat)

          • Jesse

            All you have to do is click on “view comment” to return to the article and the comment string, why are you refusing?

          • pax2u

            Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn is a false postman

          • Jesse

            He certainly has shown negativity toward the Catholics. (but I guess I do too since I just can’t accept your some of your beliefs and teachings )

          • pax2u

            I can respect a difference of theological doctrine, but I can not respect an out right lie that has been corrected by reality,

            I see some who make make a deliberately false statements that can not be defended with actual Catholic doctrine, creeds or the Catholic Catechism, and when challenged they default to an anti Catholic precher, a crack pot website or some thing like a Jack Chick hate comic book to prove their bigotry

          • Edgar Juarez

            I agree with you Neiman and is because what scripture tell, we should try to meet at FAcebook and keep sharing the Gospel – God bless you

          • William Allen

            Neiman is a false prophet. I think he left the Westborrow baptist church and opened his own church called the Church of Neiman. He had to. He is so self righteous that he can only agree with his interpretation. If Christ himself corrected Neiman on this forum, he would argue with him and have to get the last word. He’s the “accuser of the brethren”

          • Amy

            Is an “AMEN” inappropriate here 😉

          • wandakate

            WILLIAM ALLEN: AND Jessie must be the assistant pastor. They both pound down on me for some reason. Just because I gave scriptures directly from the bible they had a problem with it. I said that Faith without works is dead as written in James, and I got stomped on. I think it’s the United Church of Neiman and Jesse.

          • Jesse

            I replied to correct your erroneous teachings. No denying that faith without works is dead faith, just not as you have understood and told others. William Allen is not known to me and neither is Neiman and I have not addressed either of them, except one word definition question to Neiman. I am no ones assistant pastor but I will continue to correct your twisted interpretation of scripture because there are always a few here that are new to Christianity.

          • wandakate

            JESSE: I have quoted No twisted anything. Everything I wrote you came directly from the KJV of the Holy Bible. Didn’t add a word, didn’t take away a word. You just like to annoy and aggravate others. I didn’t say a word about William Allen. I believe I commented to him but that’s all. I comment to many people which is NO concern of yours. I think you must have missed out on your medicine. You might want to take that now to get your head back together. I only wrote the truth and nothing else. We all understand things differently. I will tell people what the Bible says, that is all I am doing. We don’t need to keep this going, it’s OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Jesse

            No it will never be over as long as you continue to ‘spew’ the confusion. I am still amazed at how little you understand the word of God and how hateful you become when proven wrong. No we do not understand the word of God differently when guided by the Holy Spirit. (except some that don’t listen and learn from the Spirit)

          • Jesse

            Here is a reprint of your post to William Allen and if my name is mentioned it is my business regardless of what shallow people think.

            “WILLIAM ALLEN: AND Jessie must be the assistant pastor. They both pound down on me for some reason. Just because I gave scriptures directly from the bible they had a problem with it. I said that Faith without works is dead as written in James, and I got stomped on. I think it’s the United Church of Neiman and Jesse.”

            You’re a liar and a beach.

          • Jesse

            Sadly; I thought I was trying to help someone who simply misunderstood God’s word, but now careful consideration (possibly with divine revelation) has revealed that you are intentionally pushing an agenda with scriptures taken out of context. (for some purpose I can’t understand) The suggestion and accusation that I “just like to annoy and aggravate others” is idiotic at the very best. (how could that be entertaining enough to cause me to waste my time here?)My whole purpose in life has been to help others as much as I can and this is not the first time it’s made a fool of me. (but even at my age I can ‘live and learn’)

          • jennylynn

            That’s because you used eisegesis insted of exegesis. You have taken James out Of context. What he was saying is if your truly saved you will have works to show for it. If you are saved and you ignore a starving man are you really saved? Works are only evedence of true salvation, it doesn’t save you just validates if you are an authentic Christian. A reference would be james 1:22 be doers of the word an not just hearers. If you are saved will you continues to steal or lie? No, because hopefully you truly repented and no longer practice sin. Only the blood of Jesus can save us and He said it is finished John 19:30. Our works would be a result and not a cause of salvation. Furthermore the works the Catholics have to perform for salvation are sacraments which are not biblical. And Jesus is not present in a wafer, He is in heaven on His throne revelation 1. And Mary is not the mediator, Jesus alone is. 2 timothy 2:5. You really need to do more homework from a biblical perspective and not Catholic.

          • pax2u

            I am happy that you are part of no denomination

          • wandakate

            JENNYLYNN: Believe it or not I AM NOT a Catholic. No, No, No. And I do not do any of the Catholic things. I do agree with you that We are saved by grace, but I say we are judged by our works. JESUS even said in Revelation that we will be judged by our works. I understand that our works will follow our salvation. Works are the manifestation of our faith in JESUS. But works/deeds are still important.
            Otherwise JESUS would not have said, that the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. He knew that there would be much “WORK” to be done, and few people willing to go and do the work.
            It is exactly what it says, our faith without our works is dead…

          • jennylynn

            Absolutely agree! Glad to know you understand.
            Yes our works will follow us because we will be rewarded. 🙂
            But our works won’t save us just show if we love The Lord enough to obey.
            Blessings!

          • Edgar Juarez

            Neiman is right, salvation is by grace/faith alone and not by works, and that is why the Gospel mean “good news” because the bad news is that nobody deserves heaven, we deserve hell but by the fine covered by Jesus on the cross we have access to heaven and not by any thing we can do to earn everlasting life in heaven but you catholics don’t understand this and I feel so sad because of that I don’t feel happy because no I see and understand this – everlasting life is a free gift for God

          • William Allen

            Edgar, clearly you have been poorly informed as to what Catholics actually believe as I was I when I used to be protestant. Maybe you’re an ex-Catholic that was poorly catechized. Not sure and its non of my business. I’ve already coveredd the issue of “sola fide” in earlier post not going to go into that anymore. I chimed into this forum to defend my faith which is Christ centered all the way. The division that is so prevalent today and growing exponentially is out of control. Just look at this forum. I’m sure the devil is just eating all this up.

          • Edgar Juarez

            One question to you then, what works the thief on the cross made? or what works the Eunucos made when he believed? or what works the jail keeper made when he believed?

          • William Allen

            First of all we are saved by God’s grace first. That goes before anything. And that is his call. Romans 9:15 “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will”. So if God of the universe wants to say to the thief that he will be in paradise because he repented, then no objections. I love every verse about faith. But its not “faith alone”. James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” Notice the word “not” in there. (Notice the word “not” in no where in Ephesians 2:8-9). What.. could Paul and James be contradicting each other?? no. 26th verse “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead” 19th verse “….Even the demons believe that and tremble”.
            What kind of works you may ask??? From Our Lord Himself Matt 25:34-36: “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and visited me.”
            Are we judged by our faith or works?? Works. Romans 2:5-8 “By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will pay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.” He didn’t mention anything here about the level of rewards you are getting when you get to heaven. He didn’t even mention “altar call” here either..I know “works” is so taboo within protestant circles because its one of the pillars that protestantism is built on…. “sola fide”. It has to be taboo for this to harmonize. I’m sure you can throw up a ton of verses on faith in response, all of which I love by the way, but you CANNOT ignore works. Faith and works must work along side one another and both be under the umbrella of God’s saving grace.

          • Edgar Juarez

            You are right I’m and ex-catholic and Im now a Christian and never to return Catholic teachings, and is because Catholic teachings never made a change in me until I meet personally Jesus my savior when I was 35 and not when I was baptized as a baby, and I never really meet Jesus before with Cahtolic teachings, don’t believe me, believe God when he says in Titus 3:5 or Ephesians 2:8-9 – God Bless

          • William Allen

            Edgar I will respectfully comment on being an “ex-cahtolic and Im now a Christian”. Catholic is Christian. They were mainly the only Christians for 1500 years and everyone back then knew that. Ask the professors at a very elite Protestant seminary like Wheaton Theological Seminary who the first Christians were. You will get Catholic as the answer. Many of the tenants of faith that you should hold dear like the Trinity, 2 natures of Christ and so forth was ironed out by the Catholic Church. This is the main reason I entered this forum was to point this out because so many that are not aware. I even used to say it. I will say, however, that a LOT of Catholics don’t know their faith well enough to defend it because they were taught by those who weren’t well equipped to teach them ( I could into a lot about that but I’m not going to). This also depends on the parish too. There is 1500 years of history of the Church (Catholic) that is covered with those that loved and had a very personal and intimate relationship with Christ….so much so they laid their life down for Him without hesitation. I grew up devout Protestant for 30 + years and I’m thankful for that. Given the fact that there 10s of thousands of different denominations now and growing because of division, fragmentation and splintering then how do you know that you’re in the right church? Because you can’t hardly get two to agree and that is sad! Everybody claims to have inspiration of the Holy Spirit but can’t agree on everything. Not the same Holy Spirit. God is not a God of confusion. He is Truth. I wish as Christ himself wishes…John 17:20-21 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us.”

          • winteryblackknight

            Well the thief on the cross did berate the bad thief for his taunting of Christas a good work. The good thief’s profession of faith would be a baptism of desire as defined by the Church. Baptism wipes the slate clean. Because of his immediate death he wasn’t able to do any works other than what I mentioned re: the bad thief. God alone can see the heart. It doesn’t disprove the need for works. What are your references for Eunucos and jail keeper?

          • jennylynn

            Neiman is a false prophet? Satan has you both blinded just where he wants you. He does not want you to test things by Gods word. Why don’t you try to see If what he and everyone else is telling you is true. Instead of just getting angry see if it is valid. If you love God you will test all things according to His word not by why the Catholic Church and pope tell you. If you don’t you will unloving resort to name calling.

          • pax2u

            Neuman is the typical anti Catholic, no denomination and a theology of hating the Catholic Church

          • jennylynn

            There is nothing wrong with being against false doctrine. That is a biblical command. Ephesians 5:11. The Bible calls us to speak the truth in love. Ephesians 4:15. Is that really what you call hate? No one hates Catholics here, we hate that which is false, and are trying to reason with the scriptures, Acts 17:2. Would it be a loving thing to let a child eat poison thinking it was candy and you said nothing? If you loved that child or anyone for that matter you would stop them from eating the poison. That is the loving thing to do. Compromising the truth is dangerous and unloving. Don’t be defensive, use this time to verify what you believe and compare it with the truth of God’s word.

          • pax2u

            I am thankful that you have no denomination, those who hate Christians are always alone

          • William Allen

            “if you love God you will test all things according to His word not by what the Catholic Church and pope tell you.”?????? really??? Who do you think put the cannon of Scripture together that you want me to refer to? The Catholic Church. The Church was already established almost 400 years before the current cannon of Scripture was put together. Did you know that there were 27 gospels originally? How do you know the right ones made it in and the wrong ones were left out? There were many gnostic books that were bidding to get in to. It was about another 600 years before there was a printing press (which the Bible was the first thing printed). Factor in that the majority of people couldn’t read still. So where did the early Christians turn to? They didn’t have a copy of Scripture. Well they learned it in Church right? yes…which was Catholic. Do you believe that Scripture is divinely inspired? Of course you do or you should. Well you can’t accept that unless you accept that it was divinely put together by the Catholic Church through divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. A fully bound copy of the KJV didn’t fall out of heaven. I don’t mean to sound sarcastic but forgive me if I don’t choose a person’s own personal interpretation of Scripture, which many of people would disagree with because of their own personal interpretation. Yeah I don’t know what I was thinking to listen to a 2000 year old Church…..
            As far as God’s Word…. I absolutely cherish it. Which is another reason why I have spent years studying it and it’s history along with the history of the Church.
            Side note: I guess you conveniently missed all the name calling from Neiman.

          • jennylynn

            Roman Catholics often say that it was their church that gave us the Bible. They sometimes claim this when defending their “Sacred Tradition,” so that they might support extra-biblical teachings such as purgatory, penance, indulgences, and Mary worship. They often say the only way the Christian church knew what books are to be included in the Canon of Scripture was because it was revealed by word-of-mouth in the early church, that is, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

            Unfortunately, this argument implies that tradition is superior to Scripture. Of course, we are not saying that the Roman Catholic church teaches that tradition is above Scripture. But when Sacred Tradition is claimed to be the thing by which Scripture is given, then tradition is inadvertently the thing that gives blessing and approval to the Bible. Heb. 7:7 says, “But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.” The unfortunate psychological effect of saying that Roman Catholic tradition is what gave us the Bible is that it elevates their tradition to a level far greater than what is permitted in Scripture. In fact, it is contradicted by scripture:

            “Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.” (1 Cor. 4:6).
            The Bible tells us to obey the Word of God–to not go beyond the written Word (1 Cor. 4:6). Unfortunately, the problem with an elevated status of Roman Catholic church tradition is that it results in various justifications of its non-biblical teachings such as prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, penance, works of righteousness, etc. Because it has deviated from trusting God’s Word alone, it has ventured into unscriptural areas. Nevertheless, did the Roman Catholic Church give us the Bible? No, it did not.

            First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really around as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution, and official church gatherings were very risky in the Roman Empire due to the persecution. Catholicism, as an organization with a central figure located in Rome, did not occur for quite some time in spite of its claim they can trace the papacy back to Peter.

            Second, the Christian Church recognized what was Scripture. It did not establish it. This is a very important point. The Christian Church recognizes what God has inspired and pronounces that recognition. In other words, it discovers what is already authentic. Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice and they follow me . . . ” (John 10:27). The church hears the voice of Christ; that is, it recognizes what is inspired, and it follows the word. It does not add to it as the Roman Catholic Church has done. Therefore, it is not following the voice of Christ.

            Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture to which Christ and the apostles appealed. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, then how can they rightfully claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn’t, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired.

            Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents, they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn’t any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself that worked through the Apostles.

            Fifth, the Scripture says, “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Pet. 1:20-21). The Bible tells us that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the very nature of the inspired documents is that they carry power and authenticity in themselves. They are not given the power or the authenticity of ecclesiastical declaration.

            Conclusion

            The Christian church, as an earthly organization, recognized the Word of God (John 10:27). It didn’t give us the Word of God. Also, it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament. The authenticity of the New Testament documents rests in the inspiration of God through the apostles–not the Catholic Church. Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament. The Jews did. How can the RCC claim it gave us the Bible when it did not give us the Old Testament? Finally, when the Catholic Church claims that it is the source of the sacred Scriptures, it is, in effect, placing itself above the word of God by claiming that through its authority we received the word of God.

          • William Allen

            Clearly you have been poorly informed. Probably from anti-Catholic fundamentalist literature or sources… You really need to do a better study of history.

            Yes the first 300 years the Church was under extreme persecution. Rome went after the bishops of the Church. Fed them to lions and set them on stakes around Rome and lit them as touches. (Many fundamentalist would do that today if they could). St. Ignatius of Antioch in the year 107 is the first recorded saying of the Church being called Catholic while he was on his way to being fed to the lions. Yes they didn’t have large basilicas like you would see today because they had to meet underground in the catacombs and in peoples houses. Wasn’t until Constantine gave pope Sylvester what was later called the Lateran Basilica that the Church could flourish without major persecution.

            “Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents, they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn’t any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself that worked through the Apostles.” You need to go back to the books here. There were 27 original gospels, 4 different books of Revelations and many gnostic books that were disputed. There is no inspired table of contents. Matter of fact, not one book in the Bible claims itself to be inspired. The Church claimed it to be.

            The Old Testament….yeah didn’t say that it came from the RCC. It did rearrange the order of the books so that OT ended with the prophesy of John the Baptist and Matthew picked up with it. Speaking of the OT. The deuterocanonical books that Luther pulled out were present in the original Greek translation of the Septuagint done in Alexandria Egypt during the time between the OT and NT. Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint. The Early Church continued with this translation of the OT. By what authority did Luther have to pull them out??

            As far as Tradition goes. The RCC never claims that Tradition is greater than the Word. You said that, probably quoting someone who is clueless. The Church teaches as St. Paul teaches in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.’

            “..support extra-Biblical teachings”… Well if you weren’t missing some of the books that I mentioned earlier they wouldn’t all be extra-biblical. However quote me a verse that says all you must believe has to be just in scripture??? However I point you to verse I overlooked for years. 1 Timothy 3:15 “If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark(foundation) of the truth.” Paul did not believe this to be a body of believers. Like today you can’t get two churches to hardly agree on the same thing even though all claim to have inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That doesn’t sound like the pillar and foundation of truth. … I could go a lot more into that but I digress.

            Worship Mary uh? wrong. You need to learn the difference in honor and worship. The catechism of the CC states that worship is for God alone, but you would need to read that before you would actually know what the RCC believes. And I think you should so that you could quit spreading hate. Prayer to the Saints. Bet you have a problem with that too. Well you better not ask someone to pray for you and you must not pray for someone else because isn’t Christ the only mediator between God and man??

            Conclusion

            You’re gravely misinformed and I pray that you seek the truth as I did. I used to be anti-Catholic but repented when God showed me the truth. I bid you peace.

          • jennylynn

            Catholics and Protestants disagree regarding the exact number of books that belong in the Old Testament Scriptures. The dispute between them is over seven books, part of what is known as the Apocrypha: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon), Baruch, Tobit, Judith, and additions to Daniel and Esther.1 However, there are a number of reasons why the Old Testament Apocrypha should not be part of the Canon or standard writings of Scripture.

            Rejection by Jesus and the Apostles

            1. There are no clear, definite New Testament quotations from the Apocrypha by Jesus or the apostles. While there may be various allusions by the New Testament to the Apocrypha, there are no authoritative statements like “thus says the Lord,” “as it is written,” or “the Scriptures say.” There are references in the New Testament to the pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”) (Jude 14-15) and even citations from pagan sources (Acts 17:22-34), but none of these are cited as Scripture and are rejected even by Roman Catholics. In contrast, the New Testament writers cite the Old Testament numerous times (Mt. 5; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 10:35) and use phrases such as “thus says the Lord,” “as it is written,” or “the Scriptures say,” indicating their approval of these books as inspired by God.

            2. Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

            Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles. In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles. They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently. For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book. This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today. By Jesus’ referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today. Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.

            Rejection by the Jewish Community

            3. The “oracles of God” were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation. Interestingly, Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, but He never disputed with them regarding the extent of the inspired revelation of God.2

            4. The Dead Sea scrolls provide no commentary on the Apocrypha but do provide commentary on some of the Jewish Old Testament books. This probably indicates that the Jewish Essene community did not regard them as highly as the Jewish Old Testament books.

            5. Many ancient Jews rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Philo never quoted the Apocrypha as Scripture. Josephus explicitly rejected the Apocrypha and listed the Hebrew Canon to be 22 books. 3 In fact, the Jewish Community acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased in Israel before the Apocrypha was written.

            Rejection by many in the Catholic Church

            6. The Catholic Church has not always accepted the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was not officially accepted by the Catholic Church at a universal council until 1546 at the Council of Trent. This is over a millennium and a half after the books were written, and was a counter reaction to the Protestant Reformation.4

            7. Many church Fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture, and many just used them for devotional purposes. For example, Jerome, the great Biblical scholar and translator of the Latin Vulgate, rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture though, supposedly under pressure, he did make a hurried translation of it. In fact, most of the church fathers in the first four centuries of the Church rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Along with Jerome, names include Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Athanasius.

            8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired.

            False Teachings

            9. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see http://www.newadvent.org/bible.)

            The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
            Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
            Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-45).
            Not Prophetic

            10. The Apocryphal books do not share many of the chararacteristics of the Canonicalbooks: they are not prophetic, there is no supernatural confirmation of any of the apocryphal writers works, there is no predictive prophecy, there is no new Messianic truth revealed, they are not cited as authoritative by any prophetic book written after them, and they even acknowledge that there were no prophets in Israel at their time (cf. 1 Macc. 9:27; 14:41).

          • William Allen

            “Rejection by Jesus and the Apostles” ?? Sorry you’re wrong. Here are just a few quotes:
            Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wisdom 11:7 – “slaying of holy innocents”

            Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – “the fruit discloses the cultivation”

            Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

            John 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16

            Like 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18

            The main Jews that rejected the deuterocanonical books did so after the Christian Church was established because the Church adopted the version that had the books in them from the Septuagint. Matter of fact 300 quotes came from the Septuagint (90% of all quotes). Again the Septuagint had all 46 books in it. Btw the Jews weren’t always in unity as to what was the complete OT canon. Some only had the Pentateuch. Regardless… Jesus, the Apostles and the early Church used the Septuagint as the version of the OT that would be used. The complete Catholic Canon of 73 books were decided on at the end of the 4th century. Dogmatically declared at Trent. Realize that the councils were called to put down heresy and make dogmatic declarations.
            Luther wanted to use the 39 book canon because of Catholic teaching, as you mentioned, were in books like Maccabees. He also wanted to remove James from the NT for the same reason. Along with 1st and 2nd Peter, Jude, Hebrews and Revelations.
            Anyway, the Catholic canon has the books that the Jews had at the time of Jesus, and the Protestant canon has the books that the Jews currently have.

          • jennylynn

            Again there is no “this says The Lord” or ” The Lord says” only faulty comparisons which are very vague.

            The apocrypha (απόκρυφα means “hidden”) is a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ that is rejected by the Protestants and officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church in 1546 as being inspired. These books are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.

            But if the Apocrypha is a Scripture, then it should not have any errors. But since it does have errors, as will be demonstrated below, this puts into question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church has properly used its self-proclaimed position as the teaching authority of the Christian Church. If it can error in such an important manner as what is Scripture, can it be trusted to properly teach the Christian Church? The following references can be verified at http://www.newadvent.org/bible.

            Problems in the Apocrypha

            When we look into the apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.

            Condones the use of magic

            Tobit 6:5-7, “Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.”
            Is it true that the smoke from a fish’s heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God.

            Teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.

            Salvation by works:
            Tobit 4:11, “For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.”
            Tobit 12:9, “For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.”
            We know from Scripture that alms (money or food given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us–not money or food given to poor people. “but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

            Money as an offering for the sins of the dead:
            2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”
            Can anyone truly accept that money isn’t offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.

            Historical Errors

            Wrong historical facts:
            Judith 1:5, “Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him.”
            Baruch 6:2, “And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace.”
            The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.1

            Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

            Conclusion

            Obviously the apocrypha has serious problems. From magic, to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts–it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn’t inspired of God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the Apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man’s false tradition rather than God’s absolute truth.

          • jennylynn

            2 John 1:9
            Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

            Praying to dead saints is necromancy and an abomination to The Lord.
            Isaiah 8:19-20 — And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

            Constantine became a Christian for political gain and not out of true repentance, like the pope. History is clear on his motives and a perfect example what the Catholic Church stands for political power.

          • William Allen

            Praying and asking for intersession of the saints is not what Isaiah was referring to. By the very definition of a saint they are not dead but ever alive enjoying the beatific vision of God. Revelations speaks of the prayers of the saints offered as incense before the Throne of God.

            Constantine ended the slaughter of the Christians but for political gain… that is speculation. The Catholic Church does not just stand for political power. Did it have sinners in it, yeah as does every church and we are all in need of a Savior. Always remember this. It is Christians that give God a bad name but not God. The writers of the New and Old Testament were sinners. God still used them too.

          • jennylynn

            William praying to saints that have DIED is not permitted in scripture but only by the catholic church.
            ” Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world” ( Catechism, par. 2683) But nowhere in scripture is there any admonition for Christians to pray for someone who has died. Instead, Jesus Himself taught us to pray directly to the Father. Matthew 6:6-9. Through Christ, we can come boldly to the throne of grace. Hebrews 4:16. You have taken Revelation our of context and do not understand exegesis of the text but are only trying to find verses to justify sin.

            Furthermore if you didn’t think Isaiah was clear here are some more.
            Deuteronomy 18:11
            Or one who casts a spell or a medium or a spirtist, or one who calls up the dead.
            Deuteronomy 19:31 says not to seek them out.
            That is what praying to them is, just like praying to God is to seek Him. Do you deny praying to God is seeking Him, well that is what praying to dead saints is, it does not justify praying to saints alive in Christ before the resurection.
            Hebrews 9;27
            Says it is appointed a man once to die and then comes judgement.
            Yes, Constantine stopped the killing of Christians for political gain, to gain favor with Christians not because he was worshiping or truly loving God. He was a false convert. The Pope does the same thing. He has political power yet denies the very doctrines of Christ and leads many astray.
            You can compromise the truth alll you want but God will hold you accountable. There are many other errors that are too numerous to get into. But I will leave it at that.
            Blessings!

          • winteryblackknight

            No I’m not grossly misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic Church but you are. The Catholic Church teaches Santifying grace is sufficient for salvation but to have sanctifying grace in your soul you have to be free from mortal sin. Mortal sin can include deliberate commission of sins of grave matter or sins of omission or a denial of essential truths because Christ is the truth. You are in denial of essential truth, therefore you are in denial of Christ. You can’t have an intimate relationship with Christ and deny essential truth or commit serious sins. Good works on their own are not required for salvation as long as they are not serious sins of omission as illustrated in Mathew 25. But they provide reparation for sins committed as St. Paul says charity covers for many sins. The meaning of reparation of sins is a whole other topic but protestants falsely think it is the same as meriting salvation. Becuase we believe God is a God of justice as well as mercy reparation must be made for sins committed even though foregiven. Reparation is made by suffering endured either here or in purgatory or the suffering can be remitted through good works, acts of piety, prayer, fasting. Good works are like penances. But works can include simply doing your duties in life the failure for which would be a serious sin of omission i.e. denying your children the necessities of life.
            You just don’t believe you can sin or suffer consequences for sin. St. Paul in Corinthians 11: 25-34″if you eat the bread and drink the cup of Our Lord unworthily you bring condemnation on yourself. So much for your once saved always saved fantasy.

          • Neiman

            What you are teaching is that Jesus did not pay for all of our sins, that we have to by confessing to a priest, participating in the sacraments of the church, doing penance and other things, pay for our own sins – being our own co-redeemers, if according to your church they are mortal sins.

            I have never said nor even remotely hinted that we can send and not suffer consequences for our sin, in this life. I never suggested or even remotely hinted that there is not a continual need for repentance, which is not begging for forgiveness which we already possess due to the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf, but at admission that we have send and have a desire to turn from those sins, by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.

            When people come to know Christ as their
            Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy.” God’s power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him,
            not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

            The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

            Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are “sealed for the day of redemption.” If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal
            life.” If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never “eternal” to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html#ixzz3J5fwp1sK

            “with respect to the Lord’s own people, who may through unbelief, the weakness of grace, and strength of corruption, behave unworthily at this supper, temporal chastisement, which is distinguished from condemnation
            with the world, and is inflicted in order to prevent it, ( 1 Corinthians 11:32 ) and with respect to others it intends temporal punishment, as afflictions and diseases of body, or corporeal death, as it is explained in ( 1 Corinthians 11:30
            ) . This they may be said to eat and drink, because their unworthy eating and drinking are the cause and means of it. Just as Adam and Eve might be said to eat condemnation to themselves and posterity, because their eating of the forbidden fruit was the cause of it. So the phrase, “does not eat condemnation”, is used in the Persic version of ( John 3:18 ) for “is not condemned”. And let it be observed, that such an one is said to eat and drink this judgment or condemnation to himself, and not another; he is injurious to nobody but himself: this may serve to make the minds of such easy, who are not so entirely satisfied with some persons who sit down with them at the Lord’s table, when they consider that it is to their own injury, and not to the hurt of others they eat
            and drink:”,/i>

            My beliefs are bible based and no none may shake my faith in Christ or cause me to doubt my salvation.

          • winteryblackknight

            Jesus carried out the required payment but it still requires cooperation on our part. Condemnation is condemnation. His sacrifice is applied everytime we confess our mortal sins and celebrate the holy sacrifice of the mass. It is the acceptable sacrifice once but requires action on our part to renew our offering of his acceptable sacrifice, He also said unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you.

          • Neiman

            That is what you Catholics do, you place Jesus back on the Cross wherein He must pay for our sins over and over again, innumerable times throughout Christian history, as in the Eucharist you insist His body and blood are literally present.

            You Catholics are placing every human being on the throne of Christ, making them their own co-redeemers by adding their self efforts to His prefect sacrifice, you are saying thereby that the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient to cover all of our sins for all eternity but, we frail, finite, sinful human beings must do something to add to his work. Why is it that you people are unable to just trust Jesus to save you completely, to the uttermost? Why is it that you must add your self efforts, the works of the already condemned flesh, to his holy sacrifice, in effect saying His sacrifice was insufficient, he needs our help to make it complete?

            The eating of the flesh of Christ and the drinking of his blood is only, though most precious, symbolic of our accepting his sacrifice by faith and our becoming part of his holy body. When we celebrate communion it is solely to remember and honor his sacrifice on our behalf. His physical body and his blood are not in the bread and the wine, it is solely a celebration of his broken body and his spilled blood for our redemption.

            This is a critical matter, it is fundamental to the faith of every Christian. It is about the all sufficiency of Christ, that his sacrifice was one time, for every sin of every human being that ever has or will ever live; and our only part in salvation is accepting that free gift of God’s grace by faith and even that faith has to be of Christ, it has to be by his faith in us. When we take communion, we are only and most gratefully remembering his sacrifice.

            If you would find eternal life, you must put Jesus back on his throne in your heart and you must not add any works of the flesh to his perfect and “finished” work on our behalf. You must learn to rest in his work of redemption only, you must end all of your labors. Then it is up to Jesus by his Holy Spirit, through the circumstances in our lives and through the word, in much prayer to simply allow Him to bring us safely home to heaven.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: FAITH AND WORKS go together like apple pie and ice cream or a Whopper with fries. They compliment one another. I am NOT Catholic however I do believe that once we are saved, then we will honor and obey JESUS by doing our works/deeds. Our faith without our works is dead faith. We are commanded to work. The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few, and JESUS said that. Where are the WORKERS? If He did not think our works were important He would never have said that. We are saved by our faith yes, BUT we are going to be JUDGED by our works, and we will receive crowns in Heaven b/c of them. That is the Bible.

          • Neiman

            Let’s see now, Jesus said, without him we could do NOTHING. He said that all our righteousness is like filthy rags, that no man was good- no not one; and yet, you think that same condemned flesh, like a building that has condemned, can be made to produce anything but death? If by starting in the flesh we only came to death, how has that flesh suddenly become capable of any good works? If we can do righteous works by the flesh, then why would we look for resurrected bodies? It is only Christ in us, the hope of glory.

            You are like a Starbucks barista, you are constantly trying to mix things together and falsely thinking you can produce something pure. In Philippians, we are told that it is God who works in us to both will and to do his good pleasure, that is no room in this for the flesh, there is no room for self will. I keep trying to lift up Christ before you as the only way unto salvation and the only source of anything good in our lives, but you passionately continue to promote acts of yourself will, of your flesh and thereby, unconsciously you exclude Christ

            if you read in Revelation, you will find that all who dwell there cast all of their crowns, the crown of life and of the rewards they have gained in this life before the feet of Christ, wherein He rightly gets all the honor and glory, not the flesh of any man. There is a great difference between our receiving rewards for the things done “while” in the body and that only by his power and our salvation. You will never understand that the only path for true Christian is absolute surrender to God and allowing Him to work in us his good pleasure, Him giving us His Spirit to carry them out for us. I keep trying to get you to get your eyes upon Jesus and off of your flesh, but as is common to all human beings, you want to take some credit that you might feel superior to others, to glory before men, and you always resist the idea that Christ must receive all the honor and glory, that no good thing dwells in us, that we must turn to Him for everything.

            It is too bad you cannot learn the lesson when Jesus said that in everything concerning life in this world and for eternity, He must be the first and the last, the beginning and the end, the alpha to Omega, He he must be all-in-all for the Christian, he must have absolute preeminence and supremacy. While we can do nothing without him, we can, by His Spirit withing, do all things through him. When you turn to works, you turn away from that devine truth.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: You don’t know one iota about me or my salvation or my relationship with the LORD. I was saved already and baptized twice, once at 12 and again as an adult. I realize that I am nothing without JESUS. I realize that His spirit dwells in me, and I can do nothing of my own strength. I am trying to take credit for nothing at all. Everything I do He gets the credit for it. I thank Him daily all day, everyday. And YOU have absolutely No right at all to judge me, you don’t know my heart or my intentions. I’m standing up for what I believe and JESUS said that our Works are important. I’M NOT DOING ANY WORK TO BE SAVED, it’s a by-product of my salvation. He enables me to do good things for others and to do otherwise is plain selfish…I’m am done with this conversation with you. No need for a reply as you will be wasting your time. I have not judged you at all, just presented what the scriptures say, you are the one who doesn’t except the truth. YOUR FAITH WITHOUT YOUR WORKS WILL BE DEAD FAITH. JESUS said, many who say to me on that day, LORD, LORD will not enter the Kingdom of GOD, but “ONLY” those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER!!! What is do the will? What does that mean? That is our works. They are saying we are dumbed down and I’m believing it more and more everyday. And deceived as well. No replies anymore…I’m done!

          • Neiman

            Well you say you’re running away, we will see.

            I guess you know that baptism doesn’t save you, right?

            How is it judging you to use your own words against you?

            You are stating a falsehood when you say that I believe in faith without works, I have explained to you many times that for the truly saved person, because of the indwelling spirit and a new nature in Christ, good works; that is, acting in love towards those in need, especially to our brothers and sisters in Christ; and yes indeed the world, will follow. If such fruits of the Spirit do not follow, I’ve also said many times one should seriously question their faith. Where we differ is that I don’t believe those works earn us anything as regards salvation* and that if we are forcing those works in order to be good, then Christ can’t be in them. If he is in us, those good works will flow from us as a part of our new nature in Christ without force, without conscious self effort.

            You don’t have to worry about me, all of my many flaws and shortcomings notwithstanding, I am born again of the spirit, I am part of the body of Christ and I am saved evermore, already in spirit a citizen of heaven.

            *Good works do not involve penance, participation in the sacraments of the church, confessions to priests or anything of a religious nature. It only involves acting in the love of God towards others and thank God, when we fail, we have an Advocate before the Father – the Lord Jesus Christ, his blood is already taking care of our failures and Jesus ever lives to wash our feet and keep us sanctified.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: I’M NOT CATHOLIC…I don’t do any of those Catholic things…

          • Neiman

            Fine, glad to hear it.

          • Jesse

            Your teachings on works is a Catholic doctrine. (that is probably why Neiman has assumed you a Catholic.)

          • Arrie

            Look into white throne judgement – Revelation.
            We will be judged according to our works – not our sin, Christ saved us from that and our faith comes into play here. But are we fulfilling our lives according to how YHVH planned it for us, or are we living “I want” lives.
            Look specifically about the part where we stand on the rock – and where fire will test us – hay, etc. will be burned away(those are our fruit), and we may survive as to by fire only – still survive. There is more on this subject.
            As for losing your salvation – I believe it is possible based on what the bible says – so guard yourselves should be the warning – do not be offended, for the offence may be your downfall – also biblical by the way.
            Sorry, reference for being blotted out of the book of life – Rev 3, Heb 6, 1 Peter 2, Jude 11 &12

          • Jesse

            Wish you would furnish scriptures instead of just saying “That is the Bible” because much of what you believe is a little twisted.
            From you;m “We are saved by our faith yes, BUT we are going to be JUDGED by our works”

            So your statement is that God’s gift of grace is not enough, we must also work our way into eternal life? I will point out that after we accept God’s gift of grace, we are expected to perform good works out of the love in our hearts that is placed there by God when we believed. I have already explained the crowns and the chain of command.

          • winteryblackknight

            You have a misunderstanding of the Catholic Eucharist. We don’t put him back on the cross in the mass. God stands outside of time. What takes place in the mass is that the sacrifice on Calvary which took place almost 2000 years ago is made present on the altar through the ministry of the priest. It is us who must renew our offering of Christ the lamb as the acceptable sacrifice to the Father and unite ourselves with his sacrifice. Because man continues to sin this offering is required until Christ returns.
            What was Daniel referring to when he referred the abomination of desolation when the daily sacrifice would no longer be performed?
            Your interpretation of the Eucharist doesn’t make sense. John 6 makes it very clear we must eat His flesh and drink His blood if we want share His divine life. Why did most of his disciples leave Him because they found the teaching too difficult? Did He offer them an explanation? They remind me of protestants who have left the Church.
            St. Paul in Corinthians reiterates the teaching. If it was just a symbol it would not make sense that we would bring condemnation on ourselves for receiving the Eucharist unworthily (in a state of unrepented mortal sin). Why do the all the ancient Christian denominations believe the same as the Catholics, such as the Orthodx, the Copts, the Maronites, the Chaldean Church, the Syriac Church? It is through the Eucharist that we receive grace (which is Christ’s divine life) to help sanctify ourselves. As the vine nourishes the branches so the True Vine nourishes us through the Eucharist, He gives us new flesh and new blood to repair that damaged by sin.
            I trust the teaching of the Apostles passed down through their sucessors rather than that of rebels who teach on their own authority.

          • Neiman

            No, I do not misunderstand it at all, I just think it is unscriptural, pagan in nature.

            “The Roman Catholic Church believes that the bread and wine of the Holy Eucharist become the actual body and blood
            of Jesus. They attempt to support their system of thought with passages such as John 6:32-58; Matthew 26:26; Luke 22:17-23; and 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. In A.D. 1551, the Counsel of Trent officially stated, “By the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation” (Session XIII, chapter IV; cf. canon II). By sharing in the Eucharistic meal, the Church teaches that Catholics are fulfilling John 6:53: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

            What does that really mean? Jesus goes on to say that “it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63-64). So, if “the flesh is of no avail,” why would we have to eat Jesus’ flesh in order to have eternal life? It does not make sense, until Jesus tells us that the words He speaks are “spirit.” Jesus is saying that this is not a literal teaching, but a spiritual one. The language ties in perfectly with the aforementioned statement of the apostle Paul: “Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1).

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Holy-Eucharist.html#ixzz3JLMP8uQ2

            Read the whole article and get an education.

          • winteryblackknight

            You are confusing His flesh with things of the flesh in the world. They are not the same. We have bodies and will continue to have bodies after the final resurrection. It will just be a different type of body. If you consider that God is the source of our physical flesh and blood and that He can regenerate our flesh and blood and our whole being I don’t find it pagan. There have been Eucharistic miracles attested to by many and I have experienced personal growth through reception of the Holy Eucharist over time. This is the teaching that has passed down from the Apostles. It is such a difficult teaching that it must be true. Otherwise the teaching would never have survived.

          • Neiman

            It is of interest that when Jesus shared the bread and wine with His Apostles, He had not yet died, He had not yet suffered; so when the Apostles shared that first communion, if Catholic doctrine were true at all, they could not have possibly eaten of His literal Body or drank of His literal blood in those elements, because He had not yet been crucified. So much for a literal translation.

            “Thankfully, Jesus made it exceedingly obvious what He meant. John 6:63
            declares, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The
            words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” Jesus
            specifically stated that His words are “spirit.” Jesus was using
            physical concepts, eating and drinking, to teach spiritual truth. Just
            as consuming physical food and drink sustains our physical bodies, so
            are our spiritual lives saved and built up by spiritually receiving Him,
            by grace through faith. Eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking His blood are
            symbols of fully and completely receiving Him in our lives.

            The Scriptures declare that the Lord’s Supper is a memorial to the body and blood of Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24-25),
            not the actual consumption of His physical body and blood. When Jesus
            was speaking in John chapter 6, Jesus had not yet had the Last Supper
            with His disciples, in which He instituted the Lord’s Supper. To read
            the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion back into John chapter 6 is unwarranted. For a more complete discussion of these issues, please read our article on the Holy Eucharist.

            The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it
            is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a “re-sacrifice” of Jesus
            Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His
            sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says,
            that Jesus died “once for all” and does not need to be sacrificed again (Hebrews 10:10; 1 Peter 3:18). Hebrews 7:27
            declares, “Unlike the other high priests, He (Jesus) does not need to
            offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the
            sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins ONCE for all when He
            offered Himself.”

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/transubstantiation.html#ixzz3JLcUjvYc

          • winteryblackknight

            The commentary you offer limit Jesus who is God to to his earthly body before his death. It is taught by The Catholic Church as a sacred mystery – not something that can be easily understood in our limited human ways. I trust the teaching that has been held and passed down for centuries by those authorized to teach in his name rather than those who derive their teachings from rebels who have no sign of authority to teach in His name.

            Reference http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm

          • Neiman

            This debate can go on for a long time and unless you are a Berean Christian at heart and willing to submit everything to God’s word only versus it being filtered by the Roman Catholic Church, there is no hope at all of our ever coming to a common understanding about the nature and person of Christ or his salvation.

            The authority and the power for understanding God’s word is granted only to his church, which does not mean any ecclesiastical organization, by any name. The church, the true church, is his body, made up of individual born again believers scattered among most Christian organizations/denominations. It is governed by Christ only, through the Holy Spirit directly to the hearts of those individual believers. The Roman Catholic Church is not by any stretch of the imagination the true Church of God on earth, it has no connection whatsoever to the apostles and the early church, nor has it ever been anointed to be God’s instrument on earth. That honor has only been given to the members of the body of Christ through the Holy Spirit.

            If any Christian group, in my opinion, can be described accurately as in rebellion against Christ, it is the Roman Catholic Church, the false church, led by a false prophet. I know that such words will not please you, they will not make any Catholic happy and they will be rejected. So, I cannot at this time see any basis whatsoever on which our conversations can ever bear spiritual fruit.

            If we continue, as I will always oppose the teachings of the RCC, you will only be offended and whatever I say will be like unto priceless pearls being cast into a mud pit filled with swine, where rather than their having value or benefit, will only by trod under foot.

          • winteryblackknight

            Yes Neiman, we have a profound disagreement which won’t be resolved by discussion here. But I want to point out that your definition of true church doesn’t lead to unity but has led to a multiplicity of denominations with fundamental differences in doctrines and mass confusion which can only serve to the benefit of Satan. The historical record is there to trace the current magisterium of the Catholic Church back to the Apostles and the Acts document the appointment of bishops/ succesors to carry on the workprove that the succession was broken at any time. There was corruption in the Church but we know from St. Paul and Revelation that there has always been so. Christ even acknowledged the authority of the Jewish authorities despite their corruption. Corruption exists only in temporal performance of duties and not in teaching. As Christ said re: the Pharisses – do what they say but not what they do. The authority of the Jewish priesthood did not end till Christ’s death on the cross which was deemed a rebuke of the Father with whom they had their covenant. Christ told the Apostles He would be with them always even to the end of the world and that anyone who denies them denies Him. This can only be interpreted as meaning them and their successors. Otherwise it makes no sense. Luther taught sola scriptura which is not biblical and goes against scripture. Seeing that the New Testament comes from the bishops of the Church 4th century sola scriptura makes no sense. And Jesus will never manifest his will through a rebel or revolutionary lest he give glory to Lucifer the first and greatest rebels and revolutionaries.

          • Neiman

            There is absolutely no evidence that the Roman Catholic Church has any connection to the Apostles or the Apostolic faith.

            http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

            http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Christianity.html

            There is no evidence of apostolic succession.

            http://www.gotquestions.org/sola-scriptura.html

            Jesus is the head of the Church, the Church, His Body, He rules the Church through the Holy Spirit and while ministers and elders (bishops) are men full of the Holy Spirit and able to teach by the Holy Spirit, Jesus would never give up His rule to frail, finite men.

            The Roman Catholic Church is the false church, under a long list of false prophets, the Pope will be the False Prophet, its sins and evil are well documented. If you would be a Christian, I suggest (a) Turning to God’s Word, the Bible, not the Catholic Bible, as your only guidebook into truth and (b) turn to Jesus as your only Lord.

          • winteryblackknight

            The documents you quote are protestant opinion pieces to justify their doctrine and are spurious. Documents exist from pre Constantine from the early church and they don’t support the assertions in the aforementioned documents. I have seen the caves of the early Christians in Cappodocia and the iconography on the walls looked pretty Catholic. combs in Rome. Peter was clearly given exclusive authority with the keys. Jesus also told him to strengthen his brothers and to feed My sheep. The New Testament was given to us by the Catholic Church. The historical record attests to that. You will believe what you want to believe but there is no solid evidence to supoort any of the assertions in the documents you quoted.
            The assertion by Luther that the Bible is the sole authority is the biggest and clearest lie perpetrated because scripture itself doesn’t support it and there was no basis in tradition. The Bible clearly documents Christ giving authority to the Apostles and they appointing elders/bishops/presbyters to be in charge of churches they established. You cannot deny that in good conscience and if you do you have no excuse before God. And therefore you could be condemned.

          • Neiman

            Acts 17: “10The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. 12Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.…

            “And searched the Scriptures daily whether those things were so: they did not dispute with, and cavil at the apostle, as the Thessalonian Jews first did, ( Acts 17:2) nor did they receive the word, right or wrong, or with an implicit faith; but they immediately betook themselves to reading and searching
            the writings of the Old Testament, to see whether the things which the apostle preached, concerning the Messiah, his incarnation, obedience, sufferings, death, and resurrection from the dead, were agreeable to them, or not; determining, if they were not, to reject them, but if they were, to embrace them, as they did; see ( John 5:39) and this they did continually day after day. They were neither backward to hear and receive the word, nor slothful to examine it”

            This was by the Holy Spirit speaking through the Apostle Paul, the strongest possible statement in favor of sola scriptura, although not so named. Yet, It would take the most obstinate and obturate, religious minded person to read the above and not see the appeal to Scripture as the ultimate authority, even when the subject was being taught by an apostle of the Lord. It is also clear that they did this each time a divine truth was presented to them, not willing to take anything of such eternal importance solely upon the word of a frail, finite man that shared their own sinful nature. No, their sole appeal, their sole authority for all truth rested upon God’s revealed word in holy Scripture. If these people of a superior, a more noble spiritual character, a more teachable spirit, thus appealed to God’s word rather than just blindly ingthe teachings of the most prolific apostle of them all, the one whom the Holy Spirit used to give birth to nearly all the early churches, surely every word uttered by every so-called Pope, or cardinal or priest should even more so be subjected to that same high standard.

            Unfortunately, you always seem to reject holy Scripture as the ultimate authority to determine God’s revealed will, rejecting divinely inspired teaching in favor of your blind submission to some sinful pretender to Christ’s Throne, that man in Rome, the falsely called Vicar of Christ. It is amazing to me that anyone calling themselves a Christian would be willing to submit to a frail, finite man who shares their own sinful nature who like them still live in the flesh God that has condemned, without any fear that they are being misled. It is equally disturbing that you do not look to Christ alone as your Lord, as your all in all, as your first to last, as your alpha to Omega, as being preeminent in all things in your life, as having absolute supremacy in all things for this life and eternity. No, you find your comfort in man, in a religious organization, in giving over all of the exigencies of your life and your eternal fate to a mere creature.

            It is also incredibly sad that you know so little about salvation, that you do not understand for the believer, of which I have been for over six decades of life, the Holy Spirit tells us there is therefore now no condemnation, we cannot come into judgment. Why? Because we Christians are by our own efforts righteous, better than other men? Or, is it because all of our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ and we have been born again of his spirit, sharing in his resurrected, holy life now and for eternity?

            Lastly, you cannot objectively document any absolute, clear connection between the early Christian church under the apostles and that most damnable Roman Catholic Church. As those bishops that wanted to seize control of all of the early dispersed congregations, did not create their own power base called the Roman Catholic Church for at least 350 to 500 years after the resurrection of Christ. You cannot establish any apostolic succession in Scripture, you cannot prove that Peter was ever in Rome or had any connection at all with the Roman Catholic Church, nor can you by any verbal gymnastics prove that Jesus gave the apostle Peter any mystical keys of the kingdom, making him the first pope. So, not a single claim by those false prophets in Rome can be clearly, objectively established.

          • winteryblackknight

            Neiman: your comments are laughable. You don’t even appear sincere in your criticism because you leap to unreasonable conclusions.You Seaching the scriptures doesn’t make it the sole authority. It is a means of validation because what is taught has to be consistent with scripture because after all it is the Word of God. The Catholic Church holds to that and her teachings are consistent with scripture and scripture is used as the base. Even a controversial teaching like the ban on contraception is based on scripture.

            The Old Covenant didn’t rely on scripture as the sole authority. They had a priesthood including a high priest and a king (both of which were referred to as lampstands), Matthew 23:2 “the scribes and pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. Therefore do what they say, not what they do”

            Regarding my trust of Catholic Church teachings versus scripture, I have already determined for myself that the Church’s teachings are consistent with and rooted in scripture. Scripture is subject to interpretation and therefore requires a teaching authority to ensure what is taught is consistent abd supported by scripture.

            If you believe that Christ is the Aplha and the Omega then why does protestantism keep accomodating their teachings to conform to the world?

            You say I reject scripture as the ultimate authority. I have been taking pains to point out the support of scripture for the Church’s teachings. You make things up. You presume that the Pope is my focus. No the the Pope leads me and reminds me of Jesus and helps me understand who Jesus is. He also ensures a unity throughout the Church.

            If you are truly saved once and forever why does St. Peter say 2 Peter 2:21 “Better for them, never to have found their way to justification, than to have found it, and then turned their backs on the holy law once handed down to them”. or what Christ said Mathew 5:20 “For I tell you unless your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees and scribes you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” These are absolutes. There is no qualification. You just selectively take scriptural passages out of their true context to support your particular doctrine and ignore all the others that contradict your belief.
            Regarding Peter’s authority, do you close your keys when you read Mathew 16: 16 – 20?
            I don’t think you will find many historical scholars that will agree with your denial of objective evidence of the succession of the Catholic Church from the Apostles or Peter’s death in Rome.
            Wilful blindness and willful deceit are dangerous states to be in

          • Neiman

            II Peter 2:21
            For it had been better for them
            Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated: not to have known the way of righteousness; the same with “the way of truth”, ( 2 Peter 2:2 ) , and “the right way”, ( 2 Peter 2:15
            ) , the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner’s justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the
            Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:

            than after they have known [it];
            owned, embraced, and professed it: to turn: the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors,
            or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally: from the holy commandment delivered unto them; by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see ( 2 Peter 3:2 ) ( 1 Timothy 6:14) ; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, (Jude 1:3 ) , and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man’s light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see (Romans 2:12 ) ( Luke 12:47 Luke 12:48 ) .

            So it was not to those saved, it was to those having been exposed to the Gospel and having not by repentance turned from their sins. It was not about obeying the Law, but denying the truth of the Gospel in their daily conduct.

            Matthew 5:20

            Mathew was talking to the Jews, those thinking they have salvation by obedience to the Law of Moses. It is another example of showing the utter impossibility of being righteous by obedience t the law and thus their need for another way unto salvation, which by faith in Christ is only by grace. “These words are directed, not to the true disciples of Christ in general, or to his apostles in particular, but to the whole multitude of the people; who had in great esteem and admiration the Scribes and Pharisees, for their seeming righteousness and holiness;” which was neither.

            So again you err in not knowing Jesus audience and how He was showing the people that no one is righteous, no not one.

            Matthew 16:16-20

            http://www.gotquestions.org/Peter-first-pope.html

            It is a most gross misinterpretation of these passages that Peter was anointed as the leader of the Church, exclusively given the keys of the Kingdom which are the Gospel of Salvation that he was the first Pope, that he was part of any Roman Catholic Church, that there is any apostolic succession or that he had any supremacy in the early Church. But, no arguments will suffice for you as you are bound to the Roman Catholic Church body and soul.

            You will win no arguments/debate here, except with other Catholics.

          • winteryblackknight

            More nonsense. You interpret things to suit yourself. Christ’s audience is irrelevant. The statement was an absolute. The Jews Christ taught – his disciples were to form His Church and be part of the new covenant.
            A wall would be easier to debate with and share points with than you

          • Neiman

            Every time you say something false about God’s Word – I will use facts to oppose you. If you do not like it, stop replying.

          • wandakate

            WINTERYBLACKKNIGHT: Just want to comment on one area here. Once Saved-Always Saved is NOT biblical. You are right there. JESUS said that our names can be blotted out of the book of life. He said it would be better if we were never saved than to fall away from the faith and belong to the world again instead of to Him. We can certainly lose our salvation. If we are backslidden, for instance he said, If you are lukewarm (not hot or cold) I will spew you out of my mouth (have nothing to do with you).

          • Jesse

            wandakate; what are your scriptures to rebuke the once saved always saved teaching? What did Jesus mean when he uttered the following words? (I haven’t seen any verse that explains being “unborn again”)

            Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name:
            those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

          • jennylynn

            Good Works

            According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation.

            ”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).
            “The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).
            ” . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: ‘The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'” (CCC 2068).
            Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

            “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema,” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
            “If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema,” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
            “If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).
            So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

            Biblical Response

            Salvation in Roman Catholic Salvation is a system of works combined with faith. But, what does the Bible say about salvation when it comes to faith and works? It separates them and clearly says that works are not part of becoming saved.

            “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.” (Rom. 3:28-30).
            “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:1-5).
            “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” (Gal. 2:16).
            So we can see that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Did you also know that adding works to salvation is condemned in scripture?

            “You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:1-3).
            “Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Gal. 5:2-4).
            “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” (Matt. 7:22-23).
            In Gal. 3:1-3 above, Paul is clearly teaching that the Galatians were fools. Why? They were adding works to the work of the Holy Spirit. In Gal. 5:2-4, Paul tells them if they received circumcision, that they would not be under grace. Circumcision represented the works of the Law, and Paul clearly tells them that just getting circumcised (not doing good works) would damn them. Why? Because it was a symbol of keeping the Law. That is why Paul had previously said in Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Finally, in Matt. 7:22-23 we see an account where Jesus condemns people on the day of judgment. Why would they be condemned? They were appealing to their faith in Christ and their works for their salvation on “bad day.” By adding any works into the active salvation, it means that the work of God is not sufficient, but that it needs to be perfected–completed by human effort. This is why salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It cannot be by faith and any of ouworks.

            Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

            Works are a result of our faith. In James 2:24 which many Catholics appeal to sais ” you see thaat a man is justified by works, and not faith alone. But the context of James is speaking of dead faith as opposed to living, saving faith. James states that if you ” say” you have faith but have no works (james 2:14) that faith cannot save you because it is dead faith. In other words, mere intellectual acknowledgment of Christ is a dead faith that produces no regeneration and no change in a person’s life. This faith does not justify. Rather, it is only that real and believing faith in Christ that results in justification. Real faith produces good works, but it isn’t these works that save you. Good works are the effect of salvation, not the cause of it and they certainly do not help anyone keep their salvation.

            Check out http://www.Carm.org for more information on more of what the Catholic church really teaches.

            Blessings!

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            What are you arguing? Why are you arguing? What is your main point? What I am hearing you say is, that you feel your religious methods are superior to all others? It’s that what you’re saying? Are you trying to convince us or are you trying to convince yourself? Jesus worked and he worked hard he did not just go around and preach, that is perhaps the logic, that when we practice kindness and mercy we are closer to acting like Jesus, these are learning experiences they are ways to show how we desire to be like Christ doing an action instead of just taking about it. Your claim that the individual relationships with Jesus is the only way to salvation is crap, sounds to me like you just don’t care to donate your time to do for others. There are lots of ways to do a great many things including getting to heaven! I choose kindness and humility and generosity. One thing is certain, there is only one way to hell and that’s your way?

          • winteryblackknight

            Yes works are required as well as faith as the Church teaches. I believe St. Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law as a means of salvation where they had all kinds of rules to follow that became a burden. You can’t ignore Mathew 25 which supports the Catholic position and Paul’s admonition “with fear and trembling work out your salvation”. Also Corinthians 11 where Paul states that if you eat the bread and drink the cup of Our Lord unworthily you bring condemnation on yourself. Scripture has to be interpreted consistant with the whole otherwise it can be taken out of context and misinterpreted. There are other passages that refer to the necessity of works. I refer you to Dave Armstrong’s “A Biblical Defence of Catholicism”

          • jennylynn

            No, works are a result of faith and not required. We do works out of obedience and love for God not to be saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. Furthermore it is important to not take verses out of context or else it becomes a pre-text. Look at the context of Phhilippians 2:12 then 13 So then by beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Vs.13 For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Who is doing the work? it is God living in us by the power of His Spirit. It is a result of our salvation, not a requirement. You have to remember there were no chapter breaks in the original text. Lets compare that to a reference verse. Phillippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, the He wo began a goood work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. We are justified by faith, not works. Works is a result of regeneration and salvation because God is working in us. Again in Matthew 25 it shows the faithful servant from the one who is unfaithful.. If you think that your works will save you then you have not trusted in the completed work of Christ and are therefore trusting in your own gooodness to save you. You need to rightly divide the word of truth and compare scripture to scripture 2 Timothy 2:15
            Titus 3:5 He saved us not on the basis of deed which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
            I wish this was the only problem with the Catholic church but there are so many others. 1. the sacrament of penance to a priest ( ccc, Par 987) 1 Timothy 2:5 there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Christ Jesus, Not a pope or Mary ( queen of Heaven) 2. The eucharist, Christ’s body in a wafer. None of this is in the Bible but doctrines of man. 33. Praying to dead saints which is necromancy and an obama nation to God. Deuteronomy 18:10-11
            I can go on. If you are not trusting in Jesus alone for salvation then you are not saved according to the Bible. I would encourage you to read up on the facts.
            http://www.carm.org has done extensive research on this and it is worth your time even if you want to prove me wrong.

            Blessings!

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Jenni if you believe what they website is telling you and that what they are saying is true I’m sorry for you! Matt Slick is telling lies about Jesus, about Catholics, about so many wonderful things and ideas that you should question. PLEASE look outside that source, I’m being sincere, you are being lied to. Any institution that encourages you to cut and past their suggested responses IS NOT CREDIBLE and you are not thinking for yourself. I’m sure this will fall on deaf ears but DON”T BE A ZOMBIE!

          • jennylynn

            I’m sorry I you think I got my knowledge about Catholics from a website. I did not. My husband was catholic and many of his family members. I am surprised by your denial of core doctrinal teachings. It is a corrupt institution!

          • pax2u

            I for give you and will pray for you

            I am happy and understand why you have no denomination

          • winteryblackknight

            The Catholic Church doesn’t teach salvation by works alone. It requires faith but also works. If you have no works you will not be saved. You are ignoring Mathew 25. You are repeating the heresy of Pelagianism and attributing it to the Catholic Church. The parable of the fig tree – the tree that does not produce fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
            Mathew 5:20 “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven”. That’s an absolute and unequivocal statement. So is Mathew 25. Christ also said “If you love me you will keep My commandments”. Can you be saved if you don’t love the Lord? Also: “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my Father” The people saying Lord, Lord are expressing faith. You have to reconcile to these passages. You are also confusing the Law ( the old Mosaic Law) with works in general. Righteousness is not equivalent to the old Law. The Pharisees kept the Law to the letter but their hearts were far from God. They didn’t care about the widow, the orphan, the poor or the sick, etc. No righteousness which is works, no salvation.No faith no salvation. Both are required
            Re: the confession of sins, Christ works through the ministry of the priest. People need outward signs just like baptism. Did you baptise yourself? Why did Christ say to the Apostles: “he breathed on them, receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you shall forgive they are foregiven, whose sins you shall retain, they are retained”?
            Mary is not a mediator. She is an intercessor.The saints if that is what they are, are alive in Spirit and with our Lord in heaven. We ask them to pray for us just as you would your family and friends
            Where does it say in Scripture that the Bible is the sole authority? Christ gave authority to the Apostles. He doesn’t say anything about telling peole top read their Bible and follow only what it says. St, paul makes the only reference where he says “It profits a man to read scripture”.

          • wandakate

            JENNYLYNN: My goodness you wrote a book. No everybody wants to read about what they believe. Very simply the scripture tell us that our FAITH without our WORKS is DEAD. Simple. If we love JESUS we will keep the 10 Commandments. We are saved by our faith, and we will be judged by our works in this life. Our works will not save us, our acceptance of Him as our Savior will do that and our works will be a bonus. They will follow that salvation.

          • Jesse

            jennylynn’s next post sounds like she has a better grip on the truth than what you do.

            It starts with “No, works are a result of faith and not required. We do works out of obedience and love for God not to be saved.”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I’ve been telling Neiman he’s wrong about all his Catholic beliefs for a while. Nice to see I’m not alone.

          • wandakate

            JENNYLYNN: The Catholics, the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses all try to work as part of their salvation. We CANNOT work for our salvation, no not at all. We are saved only by GOD’s grace, the works is a bonus. We work (do good deeds) help the widows, the orphans, the disabled etc. because we want to honor and please GOD. We work for the Kingdom of GOD to show ourselves approved. He wanted our good deeds. Faith without our works is dead.
            Many Christians have a real problem with works and also with the 4th Commandment. They seem to have been told that their works don’t matter and that the Sabbath was done away with, and both of those are not true (big lies).
            The Ceremonial laws and the sacrificial laws were done away with at the cross b/c JESUS was our sacrificial lamb. The precious LAMB of GOD, that came to take away the sins of the world and to preach the gospel of the coming Kingdom of GOD the FATHER who was in heaven. Our 10 Commandments are our Moral Laws and they were NEVER done away with, even though we are told they were. People don’t want to keep them, they are an inconvenience. They would rather pick and chose. But JESUS said, If you break just one of these Commandments you have broken them all. Are we guilty? Super grace will not be enough. Grace is sufficient only when coupled with our deeds. We will be judged by our works. Rev. 22:12…And behold I come quickly; and my REWARD is with me to give every man according as his WORK shall be…JESUS is judging and He intends to judging us of our works/deeds. It’s the ones that do His commandments that will be with Him. Rev. 22: 14…Blessed are they that do HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (the New Jerusalem). You are right His word will prevail. All other religions will fall by the wayside as false.

          • jennylynn

            I don’t have a problem with works that are a result of salvation. I have a problem with the unbiblical teaching of works for salvation which is what the Catholic Church teaches. We are not saved by works. My works are a result Of my faith and love for the savior, not because earning what I can’t earn. You have no understanding of the false doctrine that is taught by the pope who believes supersedes the Bible. You need to know what the Catholic Church teaches.

          • jennylynn

            I think you are confusing obedience with the works of the Catholic Church which are sacraments, extra non biblical works. If we are saved we obey Christ’s teaching and that is a given. I wasn’t talking about those works.
            The sacraments that I’m referring to are baptism, going to the true church, keeping certain laws, receiving the sacraments, penance to a priest. ( CCC, par. 1446) or anything you are required to do. None of these things saves you, but are required by the Catholic Church.
            Please stop confusing Biblical truth of obedience from man made works which do not save.

          • Jesse

            Wandakate; In a earlier post you had become angry and stated that our discussion is OVER!!! That’s OK with me but I desire this last word. It was not my intention to start a big hairy argument. Out of concern for any new Christians that may be reading these mini-blogs I wanted to clarify some of your posts that SUGGESTED a wrong teaching. (Specifically that works were required for salvation) Yes you never stated that as a doctrinal teaching, but it sure sounded like that is/was what you meant. I apologize for presenting my thinking is such a poor manner that it created confusion and later anger… (I thought it was very important because mandatory works is a Roman teaching and belief)

            (we can still argue over the OSAS teaching because there are many scriptures supporting it, just not as it is sometimes taught by some who wish to follow Hedonism)

          • bigpawn01

            lmao be cool my friend christians are notorious for making up their own definitions for words that have already been defined and accepted by every one else. they think they are special and dont wanna be included with the word religion and it only works with them when they start this crap all any of us hear is blah blah blah blah because they are full of crap and as always so delusional they even believe their own hype. trust me everyone else in the world dont buy their bs attempt to redefine words and we all know they are a religion. they just want to try to establish their version of christianity as some kind of historical fact. a for me all they have done is proven just how dumb christianity has made them and i feel they are actually made even stupider than they are naturally for their beliefs.

          • winteryblackknight

            Well said

          • jennylynn

            Good Works

            According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation.

            ”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).
            “The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).
            ” . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: ‘The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'” (CCC 2068).
            Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

            “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema,” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
            “If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema,” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
            “If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).
            So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

            Biblical Response

            Salvation in Roman Catholic Salvation is a system of works combined with faith. But, what does the Bible say about salvation when it comes to faith and works? It separates them and clearly says that works are not part of becoming saved.

            “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.” (Rom. 3:28-30).
            “What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,” (Rom. 4:1-5).
            “Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” (Gal. 2:16).
            So we can see that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Did you also know that adding works to salvation is condemned in scripture?

            “You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:1-3).
            “Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” (Gal. 5:2-4).
            “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’” (Matt. 7:22-23).
            In Gal. 3:1-3 above, Paul is clearly teaching that the Galatians were fools. Why? They were adding works to the work of the Holy Spirit. In Gal. 5:2-4, Paul tells them if they received circumcision, that they would not be under grace. Circumcision represented the works of the Law, and Paul clearly tells them that just getting circumcised (not doing good works) would damn them. Why? Because it was a symbol of keeping the Law. That is why Paul had previously said in Gal. 3:10, “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Finally, in Matt. 7:22-23 we see an account where Jesus condemns people on the day of judgment. Why would they be condemned? They were appealing to their faith in Christ and their works for their salvation on “bad day.” By adding any works into the active salvation, it means that the work of God is not sufficient, but that it needs to be perfected–completed by human effort. This is why salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It cannot be by faith and any of our works.

            Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

          • bigpawn01

            what does any of that have to do with christians making up what words mean? i admit i did not read but a couple of sentences but i did not have to to see that we have a mis-communication or you have lost your dang mind. lmao try again sport

          • pax2u

            is asking God for forgiveness of our sins required, or is that works?

          • jennylynn

            Does repentance save you or is it an act of obedience and true sorrow for hurting the God you love? It is truly sad that the Catholics asking these questions truly do not love Jesus nor the truth of His word. They are strictly here to argue instead of Check out the claims that are documented in the RCC. You really need to do further study, and understand the difference between obedience out of love for our salvation and working for your salvation and earning it by your own merits.

          • pax2u

            is Once Saved Always Saved biblical?

          • jennylynn

            Absolutely not, though some follow that teaching it is not biblical. John 15 we must abide in Christ, remain having faith and trust in Him ALONE.
            That has nothing to do with working for salvation. We are saved by faith in Jesus. If you have faith in anyone else or your own works than you are not saved. I think you keep missing the point. Works are not for salvation. All our works are filthy rags. Isaiah 64:6, they cannot save you. Any good we are able to do is the result Of the Holy Spirit working through us out of love for the Savior. This is not a hard concept, I do not understand how Catholics think they can take any credit for anything.

          • pax2u

            I understand why you and postman Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnn have no denomination, what denomination would agree with you?

          • pax2u

            jenny lynn do you have a church? are you even a Christian?

          • Jesse

            By now you should be able to see fulfilled Bible prophecies, and I’m surprised to see that you can be so thoughtful and not begin to search for Biblical truths. Your seeing eye avatar is something associated with Satanism and the “dark side”

          • bigpawn01

            Nostradamus, made so dooms day prophesies to but i dont buy his stuff either the thing about prophesies is they are so vague they can seem to fit any situation. christians have been claiming it is the last days every since they created their god and religion. and that eye is nothing to do with satanism. it has everything to do with ancient Egyptians who i admire because they were among the first to realize the importance of knowledge writing weights and measurements. they are the founders of civilization. nice try tho. you really should check out Egyptian history it is very interesting check out the emrald tablets of Thoth(an Egyptian god the word thought is named after)

          • Jesse

            Want me to give you a couple to take apart more specifically? instead of just blowing them off as generalized?

          • Jesse

            I can furnish a couple of fulfilled prophecies that don’t depend on the bible to verify themselves, of course you may not WANT to see them…

          • bigpawn01

            as i said they are so vague that they could apply to any time in history christians have been claiming it is end of days every since they made up the jebus story and please do not furnish anything i have no interest in your religion disease.

          • Jesse

            You say a lot of unimportant stuff… Jebus story? what is that? The Jebusites were some of the original occupants of Canaan when the Israelites got there and were to be destroyed. Also Jebus was the former name for Jerusalem. Here is those two prophecies, you can prove to me that they are to vague to be important.

            Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

            (8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God’s spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

          • Jesse

            Those that know will tell you that Lucifer is represented by the all seeing eye…Google it.

          • bigpawn01

            jesse lmoa the all seeing eye has nothing to do with satanism and only is said to be by religious fundamentalist who have lost all touch with reality long ago. for those guys anything that is not god is the devil.nobody takes those people serious. this all seeing eyes is a symbol for several things none of them satan and for me it symbolizes spiritual awakened. but sure if you wanna believe it is a symbol for satan go for it dont bother me in the lest.

          • Ricardo Linnell

            What troubles me most is that (I am just speaking from my heart here, so Lord forgive me or anyone else if I say something wrong accidentally) the many sets which you refer to wintery are a result of the confusion that Satan has staged to happen at this time and have been happening for many years.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg5-v0SPRgk

          • JustMe

            Nothing you posted in that comment proves that ones RELIGION has ANYTHING to do with your snap back towards Neiman. It IS a FACT that Religion is NOT as important as our Personal Relationship With God! THAT’S What REALLY Counts! Period!!!

          • winteryblackknight

            A personal relationship with Jesus requires a belief system. If you don’t accept the Eucharist or the foregiveness of sins or baptism or break his commandments you don’t have a relationship with Jesus. All these things are part of a belief system i.e. religion. It’s too bad you brain has been poisoned against the word religion.
            And I was never accusing Neiman of denying the resurrection or supporting abortion. I was making the point that these beliefs (the resurrection and the sinfulness of abortion) were required for salvation and not just a simple expression of faith in Jesus. Jesus stands for things, certain values and realities that must be accepted.

          • Kirk Huffman

            OK, but none of the claims you just made has ever been demonstrated; which is my point. For instance: if you claim that salvation is required, you demonstrate that as a fact before you can expect others to accept that claim. You cannot move onto claiming that only your God can offer said salvation until AFTER you have clearly proven that salvation is actually is required. This must be done through rationally means, avoiding any logical fallacies and providing objective evidence to support those rational arguments. Until such time as each and every claim that is being made has been demonstrated you must always keep in mind that each and every one of those claims may be false. So I reiterate, since neither christian nor catholic have been able to prove the claims they make regarding Gods existence, Gods nature, salvation, Jesus, grace, faith, etc, etc. it is entirely possible that both groups are completely wrong and none of these things actually exist.

        • jmichael39

          “Seeing as how neither catholic nor christian have been able to meet their burden of proof regarding the claims they are making” – Who’s burden of proof? Yours? Because clearly the burden of proof has been met for a billion or two catholics and protestants. Now, where is the proof for your religious belief…secular humanism/atheism?

          • bigpawn01

            wrong again my dim witted friend you idiots have not provided not one shred of evidence to support your claim or we would all be christians. just because it is real to you does not mean it is real.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I’m sorry to say this because I think you stated out with a good point but, as I read downward your ad hominem technique is discrediting any good points you had. You won’t make any impact by name calling 🙂

          • jmichael39

            sure we have, moron…at least sufficiently for a couple of billion people, many of whom are some of the most brilliant minds in history.

            But, being the predictable little atheist that you are, BP…let me save us some time.

            You claim there’s no evidence to prove the existence of God.

            Then I ask, what form of proof is needed?

            Then you say scientific proof.

            And I respond in several ways:

            1) it is a logical fallacy to suggest that the only way to prove something immaterial is through use of material evidence. It is logically flawed to suggest that something supernatural must be proven to exist through natural means.

            2) it requires a certain significant amount of faith to believe that science is the arbiter of truth…that there is no other method of discovering truth except through science. This is called Scientism and has been around for a long time. Even Thomas Huxley in the 1800s used it to try to turn scientists into humankind’s new ‘priests’.

            The problem with Scientism is that it is self-refuting. The statement “we should only believe what can be scientifically proven” cannot be scientifically proven (because it is a philosophical statement), and so based on its own criteria it should be rejected.

            3) The other imposing self-refuting element of Atheism is that it is, by its own definition, a negative existential proof claim. Unless the person making such a claim can be in all places of the entire universe at the same time, he has no way of confirming that whatever he claims does not exist, in fact, does not exist. A bit of a conundrum for the atheist. Especially in light of the fact that these same atheists would be quick to reject any notion of having to prove that there is no god because, they claim, rightfully so, that you can’t prove a negative. Yet the entirety of their world view is based upon a negative…something they cannot prove.

            This, of course, always leads you atheists back to your Scientism argument (#2 above)…and the same problem we saw with that. The rat wheel just keeps spinning.

            All this leads to the two primary flaws atheism has regarding the concept of faith: 1) faith is only a religious concept (meaning it only deals with God or god-concepts) and 2) faith means believing in something where there is no evidence

            Both are flawed to the core. Faith is something we deal with every day. There is no question that atheism is a faith, even without a god. The courts have ruled as such and most honest atheists have admitted as much. Atheistic scientist George Klein once wrote: “I am an atheist. My attitude is not based on science, but rather on faith . . . The absence of a Creator, the non-existence of God is my childhood faith, my adult belief, unshakable and holy.”

            As for the second flaw, In the New Testament, the word pistis is used for “faith.” It is a noun that comes from the verb peitho, which means “to be persuaded.” The best lexicons show the meaning of pistis to be: “a state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted”; “trust, confidence”; “that which evokes trust”; “reliability, fidelity pertaining to being worthy of belief or trust.” In other words, the idea that faith means blind belief in the face of opposing evidence is foreign in Scripture.

            The concept of “belief” is purely in relation to conviction to the reliability of the data presented. Belief only requires, essentially, a 51/49 acceptance of the reliability of the data one has regarding the issue at hand. Anything from 51% to 100% is merely relational to the degree to which one ‘believes’. The irony of all this is that atheists ‘believe’ in a negative existential proof claim. In other words, they suggest they are at least 51% certain in the non-existence of something they can never remotely know for certain doesn’t exist. Even Richard Dawkins has admitted that he can never know with 100% certainty that there is no God. He has merely reviewed the data and taken some view that the probability of the non-existence of God is between 51% and 100% probable and places his faith in that. Of course it is a literal impossibility for him, or any person, to have access, let alone the time While similarly brilliant men and women over the ages have evaluated the very same data and concluded otherwise.

            The sole differences being 1) the worldview each person brought into the issue. and 2) the personal experiences they’ve each had that, among other things, carved out their existing world view. Ironically, while Christians claim to have had personal encounters with God, which they claim developed their present worldview, atheists claim to have NOT had similar personal experiences with God, thus carving out THEIR worldview. But while atheists make their conclusions on a non-experience, Christians base theirs ON an experience. And the atheist’s only argument against that experience? That they haven’t had one, so these Christians must be deluded. That’s it….what turns out to be simple petty jealousy.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            What about the problem of evil?

          • jmichael39

            What about it? That’s a broad question. Rather than await your reply, allow me to address what I THINK is your question. If I’m wrong in my understanding, then feel free to expound

            Rather than re-write what I think is an incredibly well written article by philosophy professor Peter Kreeft, allow me to provide a link to the article and post what I think is the relevant parts to your question.

            http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/evil.htm

            There are four parts to the solution to the problem of evil.

            First, evil is not a thing, an entity, a being. All beings are either the Creator or creatures created by the Creator. But every thing God created is good, according to Genesis. We naturally tend to picture evil as a thing—a black cloud, or a dangerous storm, or a grimacing face, or dirt. But these pictures mislead us. If God is the Creator of all things and evil is a thing, then God is the Creator of evil, and he is to blame for its existence. No, evil is not a thing but a wrong choice, or the damage done by a wrong choice. Evil is no more a positive thing than blindness is. But it is just as real. It is not a thing, but it is not an illusion.

            Second, the origin of evil is not the Creator but the creature’s freely choosing sin and selfishness. Take away all sin and selfishness and you would have heaven on earth. Even the remaining physical evils would no longer rankle and embitter us. Saints endure and even embrace suffering and death as lovers embrace heroic challenges. But they do not embrace sin

            Furthermore, the cause of physical evil is spiritual evil. The cause of suffering is sin. After Genesis tells the story of the good God creating a good world, it next answers the obvious question “Where did evil come from then?” by the story of the fall of mankind. How are we to understand this? How can spiritual evil (sin) cause physical evil (suffering and death)?

            God is the source of all life and joy. Therefore, when the human soul rebels against God, it loses its life and joy. Now a human being is body as well as soul. We are single creatures, not double: we are not even body and soul as much as we are embodied soul, or ensouled body. So the body must share in the soul’s inevitable punishment—a punishment as natural and unavoidable as broken bones from jumping off a cliff or a sick stomach from eating rotten food rather than a punishment as artificial and external as a grade for a course or a slap on the hands for taking the cookies.

            Whether this consequence of sin was a physical change in the world or only a spiritual change in human consciousness—whether the “thorns and thistles” grew in the garden only after the fall or whether they were always there but were only felt as painful by the newly fallen consciousness—is another question. But in either case the connection between spiritual evil and physical evil has to be as close as the connection between the two things they affect, the human soul and the human body.

            If the origin of evil is free will, and God is the origin of free will, isn’t God then the origin of evil? Only as parents are the origin of the misdeeds their children commit by being the origin of their children. The all-powerful God gave us a share in his power to choose freely. Would we prefer he had not and had made us robots rather than human beings?

            A third part of the solution to the problem of evil is the most important part: how to resolve the problem in practice, not just in theory; in life, not just in thought. Although evil is a serious problem for thought (for it seems to disprove the existence of God), it is even more of a problem in life (for it is the real exclusion of God). But even if you think the solution in thought is obscure and uncertain, the solution in practice is as strong and clear as the sun: it is the Son. God’s solution to the problem of evil is his Son Jesus Christ. The Father’s love sent his Son to die for us to defeat the power of evil in human nature: that’s the heart of the Christian story. We do not worship a deistic God, an absentee landlord who ignores his slum; we worship a garbageman God who came right down into our worst garbage to clean it up. How do we get God off the hook for allowing evil? God is not off the hook; God is the hook. That’s the point of a crucifix.

            The Cross is God’s part of the practical solution to evil. Our part, according to the same Gospel, is to repent, to believe, and to work with God in fighting evil by the power of love. The King has invaded; we are finishing the mop-up operation.

            Finally, what about the philosophical problem? It is not logically contradictory to say an all-powerful and all-loving God tolerates so much evil when he could eradicate it? Why do bad things happen to good people? The question makes three questionable assumptions.

            First, who’s to say we are good people? The question should be not “Why do bad things happen to good people?” but “Why do good things happen to bad people?” If the fairy godmother tells Cinderella that she can wear her magic gown until midnight, the question should be not “Why not after midnight?” but “Why did I get to wear it at all?” The question is not why the glass of water is half empty but why it is half full, for all goodness is gift. The best people are the ones who are most reluctant to call themselves good people. Sinners think they are saints, but saints know they are sinners. The best man who ever lived once said, “No one is good but God alone.”

            Second, who’s to say suffering is all bad? Life without it would produce spoiled brats and tyrants, not joyful saints. Rabbi Abraham Heschel says simply, “The man who has not suffered, what can he possibly know, anyway?” Suffering can work for the greater good of wisdom. It is not true that all things are good, but it is true that “all things work together for good to those who love God.”

            Third, who’s to say we have to know all God’s reasons? Who ever promised us all the answers? Animals can’t understand much about us; why should we be able to understand everything about God? The obvious point of the Book of Job, the world’s greatest exploration of the problem of evil, is that we just don’t know what God is up to. What a hard lesson to learn: Lesson One, that we are ignorant, that we are infants! No wonder Socrates was declared by the Delphic Oracle to be the wisest man in the world. He interpreted that declaration to mean that he alone knew that he did not have wisdom, and that was true wisdom for man.

            ALBEIT, this is clearly the Christian’s view of evil in relation to the existence of God. But if you want to take another direction, feel free.

            Another good article or two for you:

            http://carm.org/god-and-evil-a-philosophical-contradiction – Comes at the question from a different angle…more philosophical.

            http://www.christiancadre.org/topics/evil_suffering.html – more of a resource site with multiple links to articles addressing this issue and the many facets of it.
            I hope this helps some. If not, please let me know.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Wow you almost had me on that I know who Peter Kreeft is! Without cutting and pasting in another person’s ideas tell me what the problem of evil actually is…why would your refer me to a site that offers a list of topics and tells you to cut and paste in your refutations? That has to be one of the most MORONIC things you could have done!
            You are a fraud as is Matt Slick. You go ahead a be brainwashed! I wonder if Peter Kreeft who just happens to be a Catholic knows that his article is being used to refute Catholics. I actually know who he is and he is a brilliant man and very sincere, which you apparently are NOT!

          • jmichael39

            Well there goes the idea that perhaps this atheist behave in some other than as an ass.
            Where do you people come up with your sense of logic? It is mindboggling that people like you can actually function on a daily basis without running into walls regularly.
            Did you even READ what I posted? I highly doubt.

            Why in the world should I worry about re-stating what Kreeft or anyone else has so thoroughly and intelligently responded to? You don’t like what Kreeft or anyone else I referenced there says, refute it.

            If you think its insulting to accuse me of using other people’s writings to address a question like your because somehow that means I’m incapable of independent thought, spare me. If you somehow think either one of us is capable of coming up with a better way of answering your question, then you’re far more arrogant than I imagined.

            And if you think that makes me brainwashed, look in the mirror. We’re all ‘brainwashed’ by whatever we read and our life experiences. You wanna disagree with the conclusions I live by in relation to my readings and life experiences, have at it. But spare me the asinine responses. I’m up for any debate you wanna have.

            Oh, and btw, my post was in now way an attempt to refute anything regarding Catholicism. I’m not sure where you think I was doing anything of the sort, but you’re completely wrong.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            That is interesting that like all the others you have responded with insults, why is that….well here is my hypothesis, because you have no idea what in the hell you are talking about! You should find it insulting because it shows you have very little confidence in your own abilities to put the ideas in your own terms which serves a dual purpose 1. that you know enough to explain it in your own words which 2.provides you with at least a little credibility [on an intellectual level]
            My question was simple and you chose to answer it, it is a question that has plagued Christians for centuries!
            What are God’s attributes (classically)? Do you think that they are logically valid?

          • jmichael39

            LMAO…read your previous post. YOU’RE the one who started the insults. So step of your faux-moral high horse. You want to engage in a debate without insults you should have thought of that when I responded to your question with cordiality and kindness. Instead you thought it best to ignore the information presented and spew insults at me.

            I responded to your question. You clearly didn’t and don’t like the response. Do I care? Not one iota. Like the other trolls here you’re not interested in responses that blow holes in your preconceived opinions…so you insult. Then when the insults are returned, like a really faithful, Alinsky-ite, you accuse your opponent of the very ‘sins’ you’ve committed.

            You have a choice, Amy…refute or respond to the information I presented or go annoy someone else.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I’m not an atheist. I’m a Christian. Not once did I say your info was no good, my complaint pertains to the manner in which you answered my very vague question. I know what the problem of evil is, I was curious to see how you answered it. Peter kreeft is a very credible source. And like I said I was at first surprised that you would utilize his writings because most of the commentators with the same line of thinking as yours, appear to regard Catholics as “non Christian” which I find absolutely absurd.
            I appreciate your assistance in making my point, that when it comes down to intellectual discussion about a topic of theologic importance such as the problem of evil, you cut and paste in some document that belongs to another. Did you read what you posted?
            The issue is that your group is making some very narrow statements pertaining to “who has a right” to call themselves a Christian. Therefore, as a member of a group making such claims, I would expect that you would be able to back up what you’re saying, not with numerous paragraphs of another person’s writings but using your own words, perhaps quoting the person and giving them the credit.
            The evidence speaks for itself but it says nothing of your ability to understand the material your offering up as evidence. You said you were willing to debate me on any issue, I proposed the attributes of God. You choose to respond with a fallacy termed as an ad hominem. When a person makes strong statements it is expected that there will be opposition that has the same strength behind it; thus, it’s a good idea to know the evidence your presenting and be able to articulate it in your own words and refer a person to the source you used to assert your personal view.

          • jmichael39

            Why would I think, for a second, that where a person goes to fellowship has anything to do with their relationship with God? I probably know a thousand times more about the Bible and most of the Coptic (very orthodox and much closer to Catholic than Protestant) Christians being slaughtered in the Middle East. But those Christians will have a place of honor at the King’s Banquet because they put feet to their faith and literally died for it. I, in my safe secure USA home, haven’t seen a fraction of the persecution/testing of my faith as those brothers and sisters.
            Personally, I’m fed up with Christians beating each other up over the doctrines of their denominations. Be ready to be murdered and otherwise persecuted for Christ, not for your denomination.
            Oh and btw, your attack on the “manner” in which I presented my material is an attacked on me. You don’t agree? Too bad. But you started the ad hominem. And I’m now putting a stop to it by no longer responding to you. Be well.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I have not attacked you in any way. I love how that word is thrown around on this page.
            Questions are not attacking, and what sources you utilize and your presentation of them are important to.
            So in what ways do you practice self-denial? You probably know how to find a thousand times more verses in the bible than I do because CARM.org has a cut and paste rebuttal page for you to reference and links to articles….that is not knowledge unless you know what it means.
            Most of the Coptic….what does that mean? You explain the religion but sounds as if you are referring to the language or a text. The Greek and Coptic Codices found in the Nag Hammadi desert out side of Egypt? Is that what you’re referring to, the cave which held ancient Gospels?
            I would think being in a religion one would know all about it not just most of it! If it is the texts aforementioned if You can read Coptic that is impressive, where did you study?
            You quit because your ego can’t handle it when someone disagrees with you and doesn’t fall at your first or even second set of intellectual insults. Jesus was not a quitter, he kept on until they crucified him, he stood up for his beliefs and since you can’t, you quit!

          • jmichael39

            “That has to be one of the most MORONIC things you could have done!
            You are a fraud as is Matt Slick.”

            THAT is an attack. You don’t want to think of it as an attack on me, then NOTHING I said to you is an attack on you. You don’t want to agree, piss off.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Well it was kinda dumb on your part to refer me to the cut and paste page 😉

            I think the word fraud fits here, if you cut and paste an entire article on a subject I am presuming you know very little about and then back down from a debate which YOU suggested….What actual knowledge do you have?

            I never said you attacked me.

            I said ad hominem, not attack, an ad hominem is when you insult a person’s character and do not adequately address the issues being discussed

            Here is a quote for you:

            No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude” Karl Popper

          • jmichael39

            “Well it was kinda dumb on your part to refer me to the cut and paste page 😉 ” – Why is it dumb?

            “I think the word fraud fits here, if you cut and paste an entire article” – It was not the entire article. It was, as I said in my post (if you’d actually read my post), what I considered the pertinent part to what I felt was the essence of your question.

            “I am presuming you know very little about” – Obviously if I didn’t understand what I was reading I wouldn’t have considered it pertinent to what I felt was the essence of your question. ASSume again, Amy…you’re honestly looking more and more like an ass.

            “then back down from a debate which YOU suggested” – I stopped the ‘debate’ because you attacked me, PERIOD.

            “I never said you attacked me.” – “That is interesting that like all the others you have responded with insults,” – which, indeed, I did…AFTER you insulted and attacked me.

            “I said ad hominem, not attack, an ad hominem is when you insult a person’s character and do not adequately address the issues being discussed” – I ADDRESSED YOUR QUESTION…without insults. YOU are the one who responded with ad hominem. Don’t think? Delusional, like I said.

            “No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude” – great quote…now why is it again that your response to my ‘rational’ reply to your question was so irrational?

          • jmichael39

            I gave what I felt was the best response possible to a very broad and open-ended question…namely I presented what Dr. Kreeft has said on the subject. I could have tried to rephrase what he and other have written in the past. But rather than try to pretend like I have some new, never yet presented, insight into the subject, I felt it best to just share what others have written…in a much more clear way than I ever could. And then, knowing your question was broad and assuming that the Kreeft essay might not be addressing the more specific questions you may have had, I presented some resources to other people’s responses to this subject coming from various angles. Hoping that one of them might give you insights. But rather than respond to my honest efforts with similar grace, you felt the need to call my approach moronic and me a fraud. And NOW, you have the delusional audacity to deny you’ve attacked me and to accuse ME of ad hominem and personal attacks. Go see a shrink…you’ve got some serious mental issues.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Don’t you see that by cutting and pasting in an entire article about a topic which I am assuming you know little to nothing about is suspect, because what you wrote before it implies that you know all about it and don’t want to make an EFFORT to provide a personal answer. If you didn’t know, perhaps you should have said “I don’t know!” or “I will look into that and see what I think,” You can’t go around telling people you know things, providing an article, an expecting them to accept that as YOUR knowing. There may not be many of us out there but you should always write with the assumption someone will fact check what you’ve put out there.
            I also will note that you were unwilling and or unable to respond to any of my questions about religion, you have as yet to communicate any relevant information that is not about YOU personally or how I treated you unfairly.
            You plainly insulted another commentator prior to our discussion which is why I used the term MORONIC, I thought you may have caught that.
            Why do you think I need to see a shrink, because you can’t back up your statements?

          • jmichael39

            So first you attack me and my post
            Then you accuse me of attacking you
            Then you deny it was an attack
            Now you’re trying to justify attacking me?
            Get over yourself, Amy. First you “assume” far too much. Just because I accept the reality that I don’t know nearly as much as any of the people whom I’m cited and quoted and appreciate the simplicity with which they articulate their positions does not mean I don’t understand what they wrote. Yet again, you insult and attack. Is that REALLY how you wish to engage in a conversation?
            Secondly, I didn’t post Kreeft’s entire article. If you had actually read my first post to you, you’d have seen that I posted the link and said I was posting what I thought was the pertinent part of the essay…not all of it.

            Third, I posted those links so you WOULD check what I posting. Sheesh…did you even read my post. I said that very thing.

            Fourth, I HAVE responded to your question. You don’t like my answers? Tough bat guano. You have multiple sources that respond to your question. You wanna respond to them? Feel free. If not, piss off.

            Fifth, what do you care how I responded to another poster? I responded to your original question intelligently and cordially. You had absolutely no justification for attacking and insulting me for my reply. Interestingly, I don’t see you attacking the guy I was insulting for all his rampant insult and vitriol to me and to many others. Why is that? Oh don’t worry, I don’t expect you to answer that question anymore than you answer any other question.

            Sixth, yes, you do need a shrink…because of your delusions. You HAVE attacked me (and continue to do so) despite your delusions that you have not And I HAVE responded intelligently to your first question (despite your insulting rejection of that answer). And, no, I have no interest in answering any more of your questions about God or His attributes. Clearly you have no interest in hearing a legitimate and honest response to your questions (as proven by your response to my answer to your first question). So you tell me why the hell I would want to answer any more of your questions, after that (and what continues to be your responses)?

            You want to respond to the material I shared in an intelligent and non-insulting manner? Feel free…but that is the ONLY way this conversation diverts from the path that its on.

          • bigpawn01

            wow nice copy and paste and it only opinion none it based on facts. tho i admit i only read about half of it. i could not stand to read it in its entirety because i have a low tolerance for stupid especially so when it tries to pass it self off as facts. fact there is no proof of god and because of that i am an atheist .i do not need to believe crap to be an atheist simple acknowledge the absence of a god.

          • jmichael39

            What’s the matter, BP? Did I hurt your poor widdle feewings?
            Aw, poor baby. It is honestly fun watching yet another wannabe-intellectual squirm under the light of scrutiny.
            If that’s the best you’ve got, you seriously need to walk away now. Take that sage advice to shut up and be thought a fool, rather than opening your mouth again and removing all doubt. Oops…too late…LMAO at the FRAUD.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Don’t let that DB try to make you feel dumb, you are perfectly within your right to question! Did you check out the website CARM.org ? It actually gives them lists of refutations to copy and paste, not one of these idiots actually KNOWS what they are talking about, they are only pretenders! I understand why you are an atheist if you are surrounded by sheep like the sheep of CARM.org 🙂 They can’t answer Real questions and intellectuals they are NOT! 🙂 Keep thinking for yourself and keep searching!

          • Jesse

            There used to be several knowledgeable and Spirit filled posters here but it seems now that the “dim witted” and ‘half bright’ are takeing over. Read this from the beginning to identify some of the others.

          • Kirk Huffman

            I’m afraid that’s incorrect, the burden of proof for a billion or two Catholics and Protestants have not been met, else there would not be separate divisions. One of the most fundamental claims made by the thousands of different christian religions is that they are the one and only truth. If any one of those myriad of different faiths had actually met it’s burden of proof it would proven itself as the only correct religion and that all other versions are false. This has never happened, as such the burden has not been met. Now in regards to your question about atheism you might want to go look up what atheism that actually means. Atheists don’t make any positive claim regarding the existence or non existence of Gods or divine beings, as such they don’t have a burden of proof. Antitheists (aka Strong Atheism, the group you seem to be confusing atheists for) however do have a burden of proof as they are in fact making positive claims regarding the non existence of God.

          • jmichael39

            “the burden of proof for a billion or two Catholics and Protestants have not been met, else there would not be separate divisions. One of the most fundamental claims made by the thousands of different christian religions is that they are the one and only truth.” – There IS a fundamental agreement among all Christians as to truth…Jesus. Even as John wrote in his first epistle that there is a way to test the spirit in a man…namely, his view of who Jesus is. There is fundamental agreement among those 1-2Billion Protestants and Catholics as to who Jesus is. It may be shrouded sometimes behind denominational dogmas or personal struggles with sin…but it is there. They believe in the Triune God with God, the Son, being sent to die for the sins of man, He died and was buried and rose again and will return for those who are His. This is the fundamental beliefs of anyone who is Christian. And the Bible is clear that anyone who says differently is not of God.

            “If any one of those myriad of different faiths had actually met it’s burden of proof it would proven itself as the only correct religion and that all other versions are false.” – We’re thinking of burden of proof in different ways. The essential thread holding the entirety of Christianity up is the resurrection of Jesus. Even Paul, I Corinthians 15 said this. He told the Corinthians that if Christ did not die and rise from the dead that all of Christianity is void..useless. Name me one other religion that even offers a means by which anyone, with a will and a skill, could wipe that religion out? Name me one other religion that proclaims that its founder is still alive even after dying. Name me one other major religion whose Founder declared Himself to be God. If you seriously want to dismiss Christianity, then there’s the thread. If you can snip the thread of the resurrection, then you can destroy Christianity forever.

            You wanna take a shot?

          • Kirk Huffman

            Even within the bounds of Christianity there is not the kind of harmony you seem to think there is. There are hundreds of Christian denominations out there which are called nontrinitarianist sects. These are types of Christian who reject the concept of trinity, often rejecting the concept of Jesus divinity. Jesuism taught that christ was merely a teacher of morality and was in no way divine. Kainism teaches that Kain, son of Adam and Eve, is actually the messiah not Jesus. So no, there is not a fundamental agreement amoung Christians regarding the truth of Christ, which is kind of my point. Plus there is the major problem that Christianity isn’t the only religion there is. What of Islam? Do they all agree with the truth of Christ? What of Jewish people? Hindus? Just because Chistianity is currently the largest religion doesn’t justify it as the only true one.

          • jmichael39

            Nothing new under the sun. All those false teachings have been around for ages and many even addressed in the Bible. There’s really no point to your argument.

            The fundamental element of biblical Christianity lay in the resurrection of Christ There’s more than sufficient evidence of that to warrant an individual making the rational decision to believe its reality and the ramifications of that truth.
            No other religion…not even those so-called ‘denominations’ of Christianity (which are in reality not Christianity)…either claims its founder rose from the dead nor lays out for all to see the consequences of refuting that basic premise of our faith.

    • Carolin

      I live in an area which is predominately Catholic, so when I asked someone if they are a Christian, 9 times out of 10 they say, no, I am Catholic. That to say this…being a Catholic does not make you a Christian, but I am sure there are many Catholics that are Christian, and neither does going to church all of the time make you a Christian. It is what you have done in your heart with Jesus Christ…have you made Him Lord and Savior of your life and committed your life to Him, based on the facts that he was born of the virgin Mary, suffered , was crucified and rose again so that we might have eternal life? I think there are many things we can learn from the “Catholics” as well as they can learn from protestants. Nicholas was a man, who loved God and gave to widows and orphans, which by the way, is “true religion”. BUT they seem to have made him the God of Christmas instead of Jesus. I think Santa is a fun thing, but thats all…Jesus is the reason for the season and that is what I was taught as a child, what I taught my child and what my grand children are being taught. I don’t think Santa should be elevated above Jesus…

      • Michael Massey

        True, and that is with any denomination. Any time the denomination takes precedence over Christ , then it is no longer Christianity .

        • Dropkick Nick

          Which it does in the Catholic church. In the Catholic church, their tradition is equal to the word of God.

          • Kathleen Marion

            ‘HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? I ALSO WILL DO LIKEWISE.’ 31 YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; FOR EVERY ABOMINATION TO THE LORD WHICH HE HATES THEY HAVE DONE TO THEIR GODS; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
            32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

            What have you added? A pagan holiday with the name of Jesus slapped on to make it appear pleasing to God, but he said he hates it and you still keep your traditions of men over the word of God. And yet you would say God knows my heart, yes he does, he knows you choose traditions of men over his word, your heart is rebellious!

          • Kathleen Marion

            And yet Jesus himself said “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” 9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

            And where does it say to keep the tradition of Jesus’ birth? NO WHERE! In fact it says NOT to use pagan elements to honor God because he hates them. Deut 12:29 “When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, 30 take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? I ALSO WILL DO LIKEWISE.’ 31 YOU SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; FOR EVERY ABOMINATION TO THE LORD WHICH HE HATES THEY HAVE DONE TO THEIR GODS; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
            32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

            What have you added? A pagan holiday with the name of Jesus slapped on to make it appear pleasing to God, but he said he hates it and you still keep your traditions of men over the word of God. And yet you would say God knows my heart, yes he does, he knows you choose traditions of men over his word, your heart is rebellious!

          • William Allen

            You should read what God required to be in his temple…. symbols, statues and the like. The canon of Scripture was not settled for about 400 years after the Church was founded. People couldn’t read nor did they have their own copy of the Bible. The first Bibles were printed on leather and it took 250 sheep skins to do it. The price today would be about 100 thousand dollars for one. They weren’t printed on paper until about the year 1000. Still then most people couldn’t read until well after that. Thats why Churches had and have statues, art and the like so that it could tell a story to those that couldn’t read nor had access to. You have a cross don’t you? You don’t worship the cross but it is a reminder of what Christ did. That is the same with art, statues and such. They are not worshiped but are used as an aid to help us see something tangible that represents what we can’t see.

            Look how many time the Jews turned that back on God and started worshiping false gods and putting up statues. And then he would bring in the enemy and wipe them out. He would raise up one that love God and who would bring people back to Him. Then he would restore Israel until another wicked king would do it all over again.

            Have you done an “alter call”? That is a tradition of men. Thats not in the scripture. Yes the Catholic Church holds to Tradition just as Paul said to: 2nd Thessalonians 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

          • William Allen

            So did Paul. 2nd Thessalonians 2:24

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Why do you say that about the Catholic religion? That their traditions are on an equal plane with God? I’m not Catholic, but I am curious, please tell me what you know about Catholicism? Where did learn what you know?

        • swtrainer

          Michael Massey, I agree that any denomination that takes precedence over Christ isn’t Christian. But I disagree with your assertion that “…and that is with any denomination” If you ask a Baptist if they are a Christian, I’d say most, if not all, would say, Yes…at least the Baptists I know…BTW, I’m attending a Christian Church – not a Baptist church. The point is, you can’t generalize anyone. I think there are a lot of people who would answre, “Yes, I’m a Christian.” may, in fact, not be Christians.

          • Michael Massey

            swtrainer , excellent points. I should have been more explicit and I apologize for that. We are Christians and denominations tend to get in the way. As you pointed out about me , I said ” I am a Baptist “, which is true, but NOT important. I am a Christian, is . I like the Baptist denomination, per se, worship and such. I don’t have a lot of problems with denominations when people see them in the way you describe . The fact the Apostles did not always agree on subjects ( for example , water baptism for gentiles ) until brought before James , the brother of Jesus , who was the head of the church in Jerusalem.

      • Wesley Woods

        i heard a message of a Catholic Bishop who claimed that all Christian faith traditions should from each other for each has its own strengths and weaknesses. i am from the Methodist tradition, but have books from Lutherans, Catholics, Baptist, and even Calvinists in my theological library. there was only one church until 1047 when the Great Schism between the Greek speaking Eastern Churches and the Latin Church split from each other by excommunicating each other. it is my opinion that the different beliefs that are shared by both Catholic and Orthodox churches are Scripturally accurate. St. Nicholas is recognized as a saint by Anglican, Orthodox, Lutherans, and Catholics, which means Mike is calling all these groups non-Christians and probably would not even recognize real Biblical Christianity. it also shows that Christian News Network should change its name to Fundamentalist News Network and stop trying to claim it represents Christianity.

      • George

        I disagree with the statement, “they seem to have made him the God of Christmas instead of Jesus.” Most Churches have a baby Jesus, not Santa Claus in the front of Church on Christmas eve.

    • Carolin

      I live in an area which is predominately Catholic, so when I asked someone if they are a Christian, 9 times out of 10 they say, no, I am Catholic. That to say this…being a Catholic does not make you a Christian, but I am sure there are many Catholics that are Christian, and neither does going to church all of the time make you a Christian. It is what you have done in your heart with Jesus Christ…have you made Him Lord and Savior of your life and committed your life to Him, based on the facts that he was born of the virgin Mary, suffered , was crucified and rose again so that we might have eternal life? I think there are many things we can learn from the “Catholics” as well as they can learn from protestants. Nicholas was a man, who loved God and gave to widows and orphans, which by the way, is “true religion”. BUT they seem to have made him the God of Christmas instead of Jesus. I think Santa is a fun thing, but thats all…Jesus is the reason for the season and that is what I was taught as a child, what I taught my child and what my grand children are being taught. I don’t think Santa should be elevated above Jesus…

    • Demopublicrat

      “Roman Catholics ARE Christians…” Catholicism is merely redressed paganism. Case in point – Santa Claus “For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. ” Jeremiah 10:3-4

      • holly

        Thank you! I’m Pagan and even I know that!

        • Demopublicrat

          Then there is no excuse.

          • holly

            No excuse for what?

    • http://jasoncohoon.wordpress.com/ jason cohoon

      By definition, all Catholics must agree with and follow the Pope and the edicts of the Councils. The Council of Trent denounces ALL protestants of all stripes and colors as “anathema,” that is, heretics going straight to Hell.

      There is no middle ground on that. The very definition of “Protestant” is a Christian who does not agree with the decisions and decrees of the RCC. If you don’t agree with the decisions of the Council of Trent, then you are not Catholic but Protestant. If you are Protestant, you are condemned by the Council of Trent.

      By their own words and decrees, Catholics have made themselves the enemies of the Protestant Church. Ever since Martin Luther, we’ve had the right hand of fellowship extended, desiring reform and reconciliation, but the RCC would have none of it.

      I pray for the RCC and I pray for reconciliation, but there is most assuredly a divisive rift between us and it is the RCC who have set it up, not us.

      • winteryblackknight

        Didn’t Luther on his own authority condemn both the Pope and the Catholic Church?

      • Wesley Woods

        you do know that the anathemas from Trent were against the solas of the protestants which most contradict scripture in the first place. the anathema against faith alone in more specifically against the rejection of Ephesians 2:10 where Paul is clearly declaring that we were saved to do good works from the very beginning. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10 NKJV the truth is that many protestants are unwilling to give up their treasured anti-scriptural solas in order to reconcile with the Catholic Church. you do know that Martin Luther died around the time that the Council of Trent started if not was dead before the bishops opened the council. in fact Trent was called in order to fulfill the call of Martin Luther. in fact Martin Luther in his Here I Stand speech even publicly declared that if he could be persuaded using scripture that anything that he had written was in error he would recant it. only God knows how much Luther would have recanted if he had lived after the conclusion of Trent.

        • http://jasoncohoon.wordpress.com/ jason cohoon

          Once again, your standard for reconciliation is for us to agree with everything you say. That’s not reconciling, it’s subjugation.

          We are saved to do good works, that is absolutely right! We are not, however, saved BY them. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. If salvation can come by human initiative, then Christ died for nothing.

          But I am not here to convince Catholics. The point I am making is that by definition Protestants and Catholics cannot be “buddies” in the sense Mr. Cameron is suggesting. The Catholics have declared Protestants anathema and until that is lifted there can be no dialogue.

          Also, as a subpoint, I am pointing out that the Catholics should not be shocked if Protestants “dare” to call them non-believers because Catholics have been doing it for near on 500 years.

          • William Allen

            “Not by faith alone” James 2:24.

          • http://jasoncohoon.wordpress.com/ jason cohoon

            “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” – Ephesians 2:8-9

            Hey look I can cherry pick Scriptures too! One verse from James doesn’t undermine the whole counsel of Scripture my friend. If you read the whole chapter (the whole book is even better) you’ll see James was responding to those who claimed to have faith but had no good works. James said that faith without works was no genuine faith, or was dead faith and couldn’t save.

            As I responded earlier, it is absolutely true that we are saved TO DO good works. If we are truly saved, our life will bear the fruit of that salvation in the form of good works. This is what James is saying as well. But we are not saved BY works, that is a work of God’s grace given to us by faith, and as my quote from Paul says, even the faith to receive grace is a gift from God and is not something we can produce.

            If any man claim he has earned his salvation through his works it is an empty boast full of pride and not honoring to God or His Son who gave all for us. The Bible says our very purest works of good are but “filthy rags” to God and unacceptable to Him.

            We can only be saved through our faith in the saving work and power of Jesus Christ, that is specifically, His sinless life, death, and Resurrection. All else flows from this faith.

          • William Allen

            Yep. For the most part I agree. Faith works along side of works. And in Epheshians 2:8-9 the word “alone” is always added after faith and it’s just not there. If alone is to be implied in that verse, it would be after works because Paul was addressing those that believe works only (following the Mosiac Law). I used to say it for years. Again it’s just not there. Peace to you brother.

          • William Allen

            Jason, I bring up James 2:24 for a reason. One of the pillars of protestantism is sola fide (faith alone) right?. You hear it day in and day out. Constantly. Its a mantra. I used to say all the time too. The problem is that James 2:24 clearly and literally says “we are saved not by faith alone”. This verse is the only verse in all of Sacred Scripture where “faith alone” is listed. Of course, as you will read in this forum and hear in many different venues, people will point to Ephesians 2:8-9 ” we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, least any man should boast”. They will add alone in behind faith despite it not being there…. at all.. Well ok its implied right? If its implied, if would need to go behind works not faith. “least any man should boast” points back to the context of verse 8. Some of the Christian Jews and those that had not converted at that time were still wanting to keep the works of the Law (Mosaic Law). The scribes and Pharisee were bad about boasting about their works. Grace and faith were basically foreign to them. This is the context of Ephesians 2:8-9. To add “alone” behind faith would put Paul and James at odds. But its not there, not matter what translation you look at. James points out that faith and works go together, not that one begat the other. If anything Abraham’s works (initiating the act of sacrificing his son) was counted unto him as faith. However, James is clearly indicating that you can’t have one with out the other. In this context, James and Paul are in perfect unity. A whole theology was built off of this misrepresentation of
            Scripture. Yes we could cherry pick all day long about faith verses and works verses as was happening in the earlier part of the 2nd chapter of James at his time. I point this out because “faith alone” is thrown around constantly without many knowing that the word “not” is in front of it…

          • http://jasoncohoon.wordpress.com/ jason cohoon

            And yet Paul makes precisely the opposite argument in Romans. It’s clear that Abraham received his justification before his good works, including Issac’s sacrifice and the sign of circumcision. Paul shows that when “Abraham believed God and He credited it him as righteousness” it was before Abraham did his good works. The works flowed from his faith and proved out his faith.

            James’ argument was that had Abraham believed but done nothing about it, it would not have been genuine faith and it would not have been counted to him as righteousness. Genuine faith produces good works.

            When James says “not by faith alone” he means that genuine faith always comes with works following. Faith alone without works following it is not genuine faith.

            As far as Ephesians, no you are right it does not say “faith alone,” but it does say “not of works.” Therefore a man is not saved by works, but rather by faith. I think this is unavoidable, but more below.

            You make an excellent point about the Solas. The Solas say “faith alone” and that is an oversimplification. I know no serious Protestant who would say that a man claiming to have genuine faith but has no works is saved. What the Sola Fide means is that no good work can save us. We have faith and therefore works but not the other way around.
            Personally I do not like human creeds very much. They usually oversimplify a great truth to the point it sounds like heresy but really isn’t.

            The whole counsel of the Scriptures, OT and NT, point to a truth that man cannot work his way into heaven or God’s favor. It tells us our very best works are “filthy rags” before God’s judgement. It says at our core we are evil beings and that our minds are naturally hostile to God’s. The Bible says that only if God reveals Himself to us and we believe in that revelation can we be saved.

            Consider this passage from Romans 9,

            30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
            “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
            and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

            One can make the argument all day that Paul was referring to the works of the OT Law specifically, but if that is true of Paul why would it not be true also of James? How can you tell the difference?

            Works are works, whether of the OT Law or of any other moral code. Genuine faith produces genuine works. False faith produces no works and is dead. Works without faith is stumbling over the stone and missing the mark.

            Sola Fide boils that down to “faith alone.” Perhaps it is an oversimplification, and needs to be amended, but the truth is unavoidable in Scripture: you cannot be saved by works without faith, and genuine faith always produces works.

          • Wesley Woods

            it is forgotten by many protestants that Martin Luther at first wanted to remove James from the New Testament for James is clear about that both salvation and justification are by faith with works. he states that Abraham was justified before God because he was ready to sacrifice Isaac when God called out to him to not do it. there is a 13th century altar piece in which the artist has the angel flying out of heaven to stop Abraham from thrusting the knife into Isaac. James also declares that faith without works cannot save anybody. i have heard a series about faith and works from a protestant pastor who declares that Paul and James were looking at relationship between faith and works from different perspectives. Paul was looking at it through the lens of the Mosaic law while James was looking at it through the lens of following Christ through obedience.

          • William Allen

            I agree completely. I used to be Protestant and this very thing led me to seeing why the two contradict each other despite what I was being told. Faith Alone is one of the pillars of Protestantism and is even a montra for them. I still hear day in and day. Only problem is they forget the word not is in front of phrase! God is not a God of confusion and the only way harmonize this through Protestant lense is to mistranslate Ephasians 2:8-9 and take it out of context. What’s bad is that a whole theology is built off of this… If you hear something long enough and over and over you get reprogrammed to believe it. I’ve been there. This is dangerous because it leads to “once saved always saved”. So why repent right? There are whole books written to try to harmonize this to fit Sola Fide.

      • Amy Tikal Thesing

        When did the council of Trent take place and where?

    • holly

      Lol. St. Nicholas was a child molester! Ever heard of Nicolaism? Yeah, they are child molesters! Oh and the Catholics are Christian Pagans not just Christians!

    • Natalie

      No. They are not. Conflicting doctrines.

    • Ray Carattini

      Mike Gendron is a former catholic whose agenda is to lead catholics out of the church. When challenged by other knowledgeable Catholics on what Catholicism really is, he backs down and doesn’t like to listen.

    • http://www.remnantofgod.org John1429dotorg

      Is Christmas Christian? The Christian Bible says…no. Plenty of evidence here: http://www.remnantofgod.org/xmas.htm

    • Mark

      Roman Catholics are not Christians, they are nothing of the sort. They believe in “earned salvation” vs. salvation by grace. What a slap in the face to Jesus for what he did on the cross. Many Catholics are also mother Mary worshipers which is full idolatry.
      Santa and Christmas are all a form of Pagan worship and now corporate greed. Maybe Catholics should read the book of Exodus where it says clearly to avoid celebrating days, weeks and years. Kirk Cameron should do the same so he doesn’t look like such a fool.

      • William Allen

        Completely false.

    • Bruce Morrow

      Roman Catholics are NOT Christains, I’m sorry to tell you. Roman Catholics preach a false sacramental gospel (as does Lutheranism and Anglicanism) which cannot save or make anyone a true Christian.

      • Amy Tikal Thesing

        What prompts you to make an allegation like that? On what our whose authority do you make this claim?

      • George

        As a Catholic, I take offense at the statement that I am not a Christian.

    • Sandy

      Kristi – I thought I was a Christian when I was a Catholic. Had someone asked me if I believed in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, I would have said, “Yes!” But my faith was not in Christ alone, but in Christ PLUS the required sacraments of the Catholic church. I kept reading my Bible and asking God for understanding. One morning, as I was reading, it became clear – Christ’s death on the cross was for me! He had paid the penalty for all of my sins! All that I had to do was accept Him as Savior, through faith. Now I know that I will spend eternity with Jesus – what peace it gives me and how I want to serve Him for all that He has done for me! But what a tragedy it will be for those church-goers who will hear Jesus say, “Depart from Me. I never knew you.” Be sure your faith is in Christ alone!

      • Amy Tikal Thesing

        Christ alone? Please explain that especially, in relation to the trinity.

    • Wesley Woods

      not all Catholics are Christian, but most who claim to be Christian are not really Christian either for to be called a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. Christ tells of that in order to be his follower it to live in obedience to his commands. a Catholic who obeys the commands of Christ are true Christians. it is sad that many protestants use the worst followers of Catholicism as the typical of Catholics.

    • Jesse

      Kristi; some Catholics are or may be Christians, but the Roman church is pagan in most all it’s respects and membership does not make a Christian or please God.

    • jmichael39

      With all due respect, Kristi…it is not being a Roman Catholic that makes a person a Christian…it’s the personal relationship an individual has with Christ. And, yes, there are many many Roman Catholics who are Christian. And, yes, there are many protestants who are NOT Christians.

    • Gail Owens

      As long as you are relying in Christ to save you and not the Church, the sacraments or your good works, then yes you are a christian. The trouble is most evangelical’s/protestants think they have the monopoly on the truth! NO Church saves!

  • SoliDeoGloria

    Roman Catholicism didn’t exist till around the 10th century. Come on “Christian”news. The use of the word catholic in the nicean creed does not have the meaning the pagan rome has put on it.

  • Kerry Reed

    St. Nicolas was an Orthodox Christian… commemorated and revered among Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, and Orthodox Christians. And what is Christian Orthodoxy? A continuation of the original church in the NT.

    • Neiman

      Why are we or any Christian honoring him at all, rather than Jesus alone?

      • Kerry Reed

        Why do we honor anyone in history?

        • Kerry Reed

          Or anyone in our lives… like our parents (Biblical command).

          • Neiman

            You are playing games! You know I was talking about honoring this monk/priest during a celebration of Christ’s birth.

          • Kerry Reed

            No games. What is wrong with honoring St. Nicolas? In our home, we honor him by being reminded of his example of giving on the day that is set apart to remember him as one would an anniversary or birthday.

          • Neiman

            Then you do not honor Christ, he will not share his throne or place of honor with anyone. While he may symbolize to many a spirit of giving, Who is that Spirit of true, selfless, self sacrificial giving, it is the Spirit of Christ to Whom belongs all honor and glory.

          • Kerry Reed

            Wow. Where does it say that in the Bible? I think it says a lot about the saints being one and interceding and all of us walking in love.

          • Neiman

            Saints interceding? Show me that in the Bible. Why would anyone pray to a person that in life was a sinner, deserving of hell, when, if they are truly converted, have the Spirit of Christ within and when He calls us to pray to the Father only in and through His Name?

          • Kerry Reed

            No one mentioned praying to someone other than Christ. Do you not ask others to pray for you? Where two or more are gathered in my name… Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us… Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working… And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne… To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We are HOLY being made clean through His blood.

          • Kerry Reed

            Wow. Where does it say that in the Bible? I think it says a lot about the saints being one and interceding and all of us walking in love.

          • Maya Pinion

            Actually, the Catholic Church honors St. Nicholas on December 6, not Christmas. http://www.catholic.com/blog/hector-molina/saint-nicholas-the-secrete-santa

          • Neiman

            Why honor him at all? Yes, a minor mention of a man that exhibited the gift of giving may be justifiable, but even then, if he was a Christian at all and if he did give gifts as reported, surely it was the Spirit of Christ within him and thus only Jesus deserves honor even in what he did.

          • Maya Pinion

            Why do we celebrate St. Patrick’s Day? St. Valentine’s Day? All the saints deserve mention for what they did in the name of their faith. It just happens that St. Nicholas’ feast day is close to Christmas.

          • Neiman

            While it is good to remember good people of faith and to bring them to the attention of the world, I am quite frankly not in favor of holidays or special feasts in their honor, as what ever good works they might have done in their lives, if they were truly good works, they had to be inspired by the Spirit of Christ within them and so the glory and honor belong to the Lord rather than man. To the dagree that these people are elevated, especially with more than a month honoring St. Nicholas, it is to take attention away from Christ and to rob him of the praise only he deserves.

            Remember and commend them for their good deeds – yes, to set aside holidays, feasts and other honors – no.

          • Maya Pinion

            More than a month honoring St. Nicholas? No. His feast day…DAY… is December 6.

          • Neiman

            If that’s what you think, then you are completely self deceived and without hope. You know, unless you have been in a prolonged coma, that St. Nicholas, aka Santa Claus is the center of attention of most of the Western world, now roughly 2 or more months even before Christmas. That is the case even among Roman Catholics, which are the only ones that would say his feast day is only on December 6.

          • Maya Pinion

            While that is true about the “Christmas season”, that is secular society, not the Catholic church.

          • Neiman

            Nonsense, while the Roman Catholic Church may only approve of one day, virtually all Catholics and most priests condone and celebrate him for many, many weeks each year and you know it.

          • Maya Pinion

            You are probably thinking of the season of Advent, which begins the 4th Sunday before Christmas. This is the season of anticipation of the birth of the savior. We hear the passages from the bible about the annunciation, Mary and Joseph’s travel to Bethlehem, etc.

            Hardly a 2 1/2 month celebration of St. Nicholas.

          • Neiman

            I am talking about the Christmas Season, it is inside and outside the Roman Catholic Church and dominates the spirit of the season and mostly displaces Christ.

          • Maya Pinion

            You obviously have some misguided animosity toward the Catholic church and a lot of false information, as well. You are going to believe what you want to believe, whether it’s true or not, so I’m done with this conversation.

          • Neiman

            You are the one that insisted St. Nicklaus was only celebrated on December 6th, which is only a Roman Catholic rite; and, I rightly pointed out that Roman Catholics, along with non-Catholics, Christian or not, celebrate and honor him over two months now each year and that to the exclusion of Christ. If the truth offends you, so be it, you can believe what you want and you may defends the RCC all you want, but facts are facts.

          • Maya Pinion

            Ooohhh…you must be one of those people who the last word wins the argument. Okay.

      • Tabitha Bingham

        Why do you honor Jesus but not God? Curious…..

        • Neiman

          Jesus is God. Read in Isaiah where He is called the Almighty God, the everlasting Father, wherein He claims to be the I AM, for which cause he was crucified and wherein the Holy Spirit talks of Christ not thinking He was a robber to be equal to God. There is only one God: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and these three are One Almighty God.

        • jo

          Jesus IS God.

  • Michelle

    I absolutely LOVE how evangelicals like to point out that Catholics aren’t Christians. Have you seen what is happening to the orthodox church in the middle east? The orthodox church is almost identical to the Catholic church. These people are literally being tortured, enslaved, and brutally executed for their faith in Jesus Christ. They REFUSE to back down and REFUSE to deny Christ. I would love to see an evangelical go through a tenth of what these poor people are going through and they are Catholic! God forbid a Catholic show any faith in Christ. As an evangelical daughter of a Catholic, this stereotype makes me sick to my stomach. How enlightened every one will be when we come face to face with Christ.

    • Kerry Reed

      Exactly. Where did evangelical come from? From the Catholic Church. Where did the Catholic Church come from? From a break off from the Orthodox Church. Where did the Orthodox Church originate? With the apostles. Evangelical Christianity is a a cousin-once-removed to the original church.

      • Neiman

        The Roman Catholic Church does not have any direct connection to the Apostles or the Apostolic faith. The true Church is the Body of Christ, not some man made ecclesiastical organization. It is made up of all true believers in Christ, spread out among most Christians groups, but not in Spirit part of them.

        • Kerry Reed

          Have you studied the history of the Church?

          • Neiman

            Yes!

          • Kerry Reed

            I would encourage you to study the history of the church from the East; not from the west.

          • William Allen

            Not enough

        • Kerry Reed

          Have you studied the history of the Church?

        • Maya Pinion

          The Roman Catholic Church can trace its origins all the way back to the apostles, with St. Peter (“upon this Rock I will build my church”) as our first pope.

          • Neiman

            That is false, it is a lie taught by the RCC, not the Truth.

          • Aunt Si

            Why is this a lie?

          • Neiman

            Please read the whole article:

            Was Peter the first pope? The answer, according to Scripture, is a clear and emphatic “no.” Peter nowhere claims supremacy over the other apostles. Nowhere in his writings (1 and 2 Peter) did the Apostle Peter claim any special role, authority, or power over the church. Nowhere in Scripture does Peter, or any other apostle, state that their apostolic authority would be passed on to successors. Yes, the Apostle Peter had a leadership role among the disciples. Yes, Peter played a crucial role in the early spread of the gospel (Acts chapters 1-10). Yes, Peter was the “rock” that Christ predicted he would be (Matthew 16:18). However, these truths about Peter in no way give support to the concept that Peter was the first pope, or that he was the “supreme leader” over the apostles, or that his authority would be passed on to the bishops of Rome. Peter himself points us all to the true Shepherd and Overseer
            of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:25).

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Peter-first-pope.html#ixzz3Iulo6p8h

          • Aunt Si

            Phillipians 2 12-16 Wherefore, my beloved, as he have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. do all things WITHOUT murmuring and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life, that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither lobored in vain

          • Neiman

            If they are to know the truth, how are they to know unless he sends ministers to teach them? How will they know there is a God, that they are in everlasting perils of hell, unless someone shows them? How will they repent or know Jesus is there Savior unless someone is sent to the m with the Truth?

            Taking passages out of context and not knowing the full counsel of God on any subject, is very dangerous to lost sols or even babes in Christ.

            The Bible exhorts us to beware of
            evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds
            of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make
            some kind of judgment about them?

          • William Allen

            Many false prophets come about because of their own interpretation of scripture which you find running rampant among protestant churches. Not all but many. How do you know what the truth is? by your own authority? Many believe that. There is a guardian of Sacred Scripture and its been around for 2000 years. 1 Tim. 3:15.

          • Neiman

            The RCC is not the Guardian of Sacred Scripture, it is the polluter thereof. The Church is the Body of Christ, made up of individual believers, its only head is Christ and its teacher, guide and counselor is the Holy Spirit.

            http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html

          • William Allen

            Yeah just like how there are thousands of denominations that can’t agree on the same interpretation of Scripture however all claiming to have inspiration from the Holy Spirit. Not the same Spirit. God is not a God of confusion. Sounds like you’re a polluter of sound doctrine who can’t see past their own nose. Like it or not the Holy Spirit did guide the Catholic Church in putting the canon of Scripture together that you are misrepresenting from.

          • Neiman

            You are talking about organized religion, not the Church; which is the Body of Christ, made up of many individual believers and in it there is no confusion, it is perfect. Yes, in this life, while still in the flesh there are contentions, but among true believers, as to the fundamentals of the faith, there is perfect unity.

            Of course you object to me, because I believe the RCC had nothing to do with selecting the canon of Scripture; they did recognize those books/letters that the Christian Church had long recognized as being authoritative and they quickly polluted them, as they are the Great Whore of Babylon, the mother of all spiritual harlots. Of course that will offend you and I assure you I have no illusions about changing yours or any Catholics mind.

          • William Allen

            Oh my, I don’t know to laugh or cry. No confusion???? it is perfect???? Perfect unity ( this is where I just about fell out of my chair). I tell you what, why don’t you go around to all these individual body of true believers and bring up Baptism (Regeneration or not, infant baptism, sprinkled or submerged, etc.) and see how much unity you get with that. Maybe Natures of Christ or eschatology or the Eurcharist. By the way how do you know what a true believer is? Matter of fact throw “true believer” and what that means in the pot and see how much perfect unity you get with that to.

            Yes I object to you and more than offending me, you offend Christ Himself. I don’t know where you get your information about the history of the Bible but you need to go back to the books or quit copying and pasting from some fundamentalist site. Great Whore of Babylon, the mother of all spiritual harlots……yes the 17 chapter of Revelation. I guess you think that is talking about Rome. Its not. Its talking about Jerusalem. And the Seven hill or mountains are Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mr. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel and Mt. Moriah. that it sits on. The Jews of Jerusalem are the “Mother of Harlots” that used Rome which “rides the beast” all throughout the New Testament using Roman power to kill the Messiah and try to destroy the people of God, the Church.

            And you think that the Pope is the Anti-Christ… 1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” 1 John 4:3 “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
            Now, has any Pope ever denied that Jesus is the Christ or that Christ has come in the flesh? Never!

            You have been duped by some very poor theology, even to the point of being blasphemous.

          • Neiman

            Sad, you are so confused and blind, Jesus spoke of your kind, ever searching but never finding the Truth.

            I am talking about the the true church, meaning the body of Christ, made up of all those individual Christians that have been born again and are part of the spiritual body of Christ. These people are one regarding the fundamentals of the Christian faith; which are:

            The inerrancy of the Bible
            The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ’s miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
            The Virgin Birth of Christ
            The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
            The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

            They also agree that salvation is by grace alone, by faith alone and that through Christ alone. So, in these areas they tend to walk in unity.

            Speaking of seven hills, I guess you forget that Rome is setting on seven hills, the Bible talks about the revived Roman Empire and in many ways the false church points to Rome. Now we will never agree on this, but I’m telling you that for a host of reasons, all the signs of the end times church and the seat of the false prophet seem to fit Rome, as no other place.

            I have been studying Scripture, by reliance upon the Holy Spirit, for more than six decades. I try very hard to be extremely careful of what I say, making sure I can back it up by God’s word.

            As we are opposed to one another on every matter involving the Christian faith, I suggest that any more of these exchanges only amount to vain disputations and do not benefit anyone.

          • William Allen

            By the way Constantinople, Edinburgh, San Fransisco and Cincinnati also set on 7 hills.

            I bring up what I bring up because I was a very devout protestant for 30 plus years and like you studied scripture and theology. It is still my favorite pastime. I kept coming across things that didn’t harmonize in scripture with what I was being taught. I set out on the search for the perfect church. I’ve been in many denominations. All of the Mainline denominations. This is when I realized the need for orthodoxy. Its more of an entertainment venue in most cases. People are bending scripture to fit their lifestyle. Sin is being down played. Churches are so secularized now. Christ called us to be in the world but not of the world. So you talk about seeking the truth. I did and with all my heart. I emphatically prayed for it. God showed me the Catholic Church. I refused. It wouldn’t go away. I believed exactly as you do. I looked at what everybody and their brother said about what Catholics believe and of course it was never good. God challenged me to ask Catholics what they believe. I actually spent years debating some very brilliant Catholic apologist that were very patient with me. All my preconceived notions were laid to rest. I came into the Church and it has been the greatest blessing to me. Is it perfect? no. Its a Church of sinners. We are all sinners. I John 1:8 says “if we say we are without sin, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us”. Praise God He is Faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we repent and ask for forgiveness.

            I am very passionate about what I believe as you are and we could go at this without end.
            I bid you peace brother.

          • William Allen

            By what authority do you claim this is false? If you want to know what the Catholic Church believes then you need to ask The Catholic Church. Study the early church fathers, doctors of the church that ironed out our faith and fought heresies tooth and nail. The Catholic Church is the church that Jesus Christ founded and yes they can trace their lineage. Matter of fact they were basically the only Christians for ¾ of Church history and was widely excepted as much. So was the Church wrong for 1500 years??? Would God allow that?? Over two thousand years nations have rose and nations have fallen trying to get rid of the Church. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. You mention saved by “faith alone”. Only where that “faith alone” is mentioned is James 2:24 where it says “not by faith alone are we saved”. Faith without works is dead. The second chapter of James also goes on to says that faith is supposed run along side of works, which is what the Catholic Church teaches. Its also another reason that Luther wanted to remove the book of James…. along with 1st and 2nd peter, Jude, Hebrews, Revelations. He was advised not to so he didn’t. He did remove the deutocanonical books out of the OT despite being in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles quoted from. Speaking of Scripture, you wouldn’t have it if it were not for the Catholic Church. Did you know that there was originally 27 gospels? How do you know the right ones made it in? There were 4 different Revelations accounts originally. You had gnostics spreading gnostic books and trying to get them put in. One of the methods used to make sure books were inspired, they compared them to the liturgy that was already present in the Church. The Cannon of Scripture was not fully decided on until 400 years after the Church was established. 600 years past that before they hit the printing press. It would be many years after that before the general public could even read. Thats why you have all this elaborate art and statues because even the church building preached the gospel to those that couldn’t read. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God” Doesn’t say reading… Praise God the Catholic Church did what it did! Do Catholics read the Bibles like they should? not enough thats for sure.

            Lets talk about Protestants for a sec. I grew up devout protest for 30 plus years. Didn’t take long to realized that there are tens of thousands of protestant denominations all teaching something different due to self interpretation of Scripture by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.. Sorry, can’t be the same Hole Spirit. God is not a God of confusion! The reformers would roll over in their graves if they could see how different evangelical and even mainstream protestant churches are from the early reformer churches just 500 years ago!! division and fragmentation growing exponentially. Yes I’ve spent years studying scripture but I have spent the past 4 years in deep study of the history of the Church, which by the ways does not stop at the reformation. However I digress….

            Many Catholics don’t know their faith well enough and/or they have poor formation, but to say Catholics aren’t Christian is absurd! Kirk Cameron is only pointing out history. Never did he or the Catholic Church EVER point people away from Christ. It all those before us that point TO Christ.

          • Neiman

            There is too much here for me to invest the time necessary, so I will pick and choose a few things.

            1. I never said that all Catholics are not Christian, I have made it perfectly clear here that if they come to Salvation based solely on God’s Grace, by His faith in them and that faith being in Christ Jesus alone for their salvation, they are saved, even if in my understanding of God’s Word they are in gross error on many fronts. If they are depending upon the Catholic Church, obedience to their rules and regulations, liturgies, confessions to a priest and dogma to save them, they will miss out on God’s Salvation on His ground entirely. The same applies to every other man-made, man organized religious denomination, group or sect. Salvation is only in this wise: God’s Grace alone, by faith alone and that faith in Christ alone.

            2. It is hard to understand yours and other Catholics and Kirk’s passionate defense of this Santa Claus cult. As I have said many times here, (a) I don’t get all worked up about Santa Claus and other things connected with the Christmas season which are decidedly not Christian. (b) I have no problem with this so-called St. Nicklaus being looked to as a minor example of the Grace of Giving, which gift is of the Spirit of Christ and for which only Christ should receive all the honor and gory, not a man, a sinner like all men. But, that is not the case, the Roman Catholic Church actually honors the man, not Christ and have allowed this Santa Claus character to have preeminence over Christ during this supposed celebration of the birth of Christ. It is where our heart is, are we using this time of year to honor Jesus, to meditate on His life and draw even closer to Him, then great; if on the other hand, as is increasingly the case, the story is about what Santa Claus gives us, even love and peace, then it is anti-Christ.

            3. I have posted on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church under this thread several times, I suggest you go there and go to the links I have provided. There is no connection at all of the RCC to the Apostolic Church, it is in fact a Church that was organized around the idea of compromising pagan ritual with an allegiance to the State and IMO, it is IMO a wholly false Church. Yet, let us set those opinions and I believe historical fact aside, let us agree to disagree on the facts. The truth is that Scripture tells us there is only one true Church, it was not constructed and organized by frail, finite men, it is Jesus Church, it is in fact the Spirit Body of Christ, made up of all true believers and they are found in most Christian denominations. Christ is its head, no man, no priest and no falsely called Vicar of Christ.

          • Ray Carattini

            Where in Scripture does it say we are saved by faith alone?

          • Neiman

            8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…Ephesians 2

            The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24.
            Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and
            James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that
            justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9),
            while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus
            works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James
            is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have
            faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26).
            James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but
            rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good
            works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no
            good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine
            faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).

            Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
            Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore,
            if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new
            has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17).
            James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation.
            They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply
            emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis
            on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html#ixzz3Iy5wqzEh

          • William Allen

            Notice that Ephesians 2 does not add “alone” after faith as you like to keep saying. Paul was putting down that you can’t be saved by works in its self and the works he is talking about is keeping Mosaic law not corporal works of mercy.

          • Neiman
          • William Allen

            Faith along was invented by Luther because he rebelled against the RCC. So he had to come up with something to try harmonize his beliefs. Go get all your different translations off your book shelf and try to find the word “alone” after or anywhere in Ephesians 2:8-9. Won’t find it. Probably won’t even find it heretical Jehovah Witness translation (new world translation)

          • Neiman

            So these are all lies of Luther, right?

            Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
            Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
            Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;”
            Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;”
            Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
            Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
            Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,
            even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by
            faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of
            the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
            Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
            Gal. 3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
            Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
            Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
            Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

          • William Allen

            And AGAIN look at the context. Who is he talking to? Works of the Law. The Mosaic Law. He’s putting down works based salvation by adhering to the Mosaic Law, which the Catholic Church puts down too. I can go list as many and more about doing good works which completes your faith. See previous comments. I’m not going through that again. Its like talking to fence post. And you’re acting as if Luther wrote them himself. We don’t deny Grace or faith. The Church was preaching it well before Luther came along.

          • Neiman

            No, the Gospels were mostly to the Jews, especially Matthew, the Epistles were to the Church, to Christians, with the exception of Hebrews.

            Next, in your earlier post you were raging against faith, as a lie from hell by that Satan Luther, now you pretend the RCC embraces Faith, which by your own admission they do not, every Catholic here talks about not being saved until you die and only if you have been good, done penance, participated in the Sacraments and etc. Have you amnesia?

            Next, good works do not complete faith nor add to grace, they are the fruit of the Holy Spirit due to being saved, they are outward evidence of a spiritual rebirth into Christ.

            The RCC has always taught a works oriented salvation, still do and while they give lip service to Grace and Faith, they reject both.

          • William Allen

            Yes they were to the Jews. Who do you think followed the Mosaic Law?

            You need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church then come tell me what they believe. But you wouldn’t even believe that. You probably wouldn’t even believe it even Christ himself told you. You are ridiculous.
            So you say that good works do not complete faith??? James 2:22 “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,” Talk about amnesia.
            You are completely clueless what the Catholic Church teaches and completely brainwashed. You spew lies and are “an accuser of the brethren”

          • Neiman

            Please read the opening comments of each epistle, where in it is manifestly clear that these letters are written to the early Christian church, not to the Jews. Although, there were certainly Jewish born Christians among them. Plus, when this passage talks about works, it is not talking about works of the Mosaic law.

            And by works was faith made perfect? Not with an
            absolute perfection; for though Abraham’s faith was very great, yet there were things lacking in it, and he had his fits and times of unbelief; and had he lived till now, his faith, in this sense, would not have been perfect; and he would have had reason to have used the apostle’s petition, ( Luke 17:5 ) much less would it have been made thus perfect by works; but the
            sense is, that hereby his faith was declared to be sincere, unfeigned, true, and genuine; just as love is said to be perfected, ( 1 John 4:17 )

            You Catholics here, amuse me. You accuse me of all sorts of things and then complain if you think I have accused you of something. That is a little thing we call, hypocrisy. Plus, I am not talking about those few Catholics who have come to salvation in Christ by the grace of God, by faith and are genuine Christians, even if they hold to some heterodox views on some matters. I am however, talking against the false Roman Catholic organization and I have seen no reason to modify my views, as I think the RCC have led countless millions into hell.

          • William Allen

            That is your opinion. And God wouldn’t have allowed that for 1700 maybe 1800 years roughly before somebody supposedly came along and finally got it right…
            Here’s what the RCC has done:
            -Proclaimed the Gospel for two millennia
            -gave us Sacred Scripture
            -defined the dogma of the Trinity
            -defeated the heresies of Arianism, Pelagianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Sabellianism, and Manichaeanism
            -produced thousands and thousands of saints – from St. Francis to Maximillian Kolbe to Therese de Lisieux
            -greatest caregiver of the poor in the world
            -built hospitals, orphanages, schools, and soup kitchens all over this planet
            -single greatest defender of life – all life – in the entire world –
            If you want to go after a real threat of sending countless numbers to hell then you should go after Joel Olsteen who preaches a false gospel and many like him that is steeped in New Agism…..

          • Neiman

            You cannot be taken seriously when you omit the many evils of the Roman Catholic Church since its founding, which was several hundred years after the resurrection. If you were honest you would have included mention of the Crusades, the Inquisition, their silence in the face of Hitler, their long history of anti-Semitism, their recent and very long history of sexual misconduct, including child molestation, their corrupt popes, their murderous past and their sexually promiscuous popes. You would also mention their persecution of the Protestant church, their great accumulation of wealth and their incredible greed. Had you mentioned some or any of these things, we might be able to take you more seriously.

            The truth is for all the so-called a good they have done, even though some of that good is subjective and doubtful, the evils of the Roman Catholic Church far outweigh the good. In God’s eye, he doesn’t add up the list of bad things and deduct them from good things and issue a scorecard and if you get a good score, you are okay.

            I grant you that especially in recent memory and quite frankly throughout its history, there have been plenty of charlatans and grossly evil people infecting the Protestant church as well. That is why God doesn’t want anything to do with man organized ecclesiastical organizations and has put the care of the true church, the body of Christ, only into the hands of his Dear Son. Because man made religions are always corrupt, while the true Christian faith is not.

            I understand your need to defend your Catholic Church as you have placed your trust in them to save you. It is always unpleasant to have something we love be exposed to the light of truth, but after the pain goes away, for a few, they will escape the bondage inflicted by such evil people and find liberty, peace and joy in communion with Christ alone.

          • William Allen

            There are some bad things that happened and you better believe that it is and always have been under scrutiny. Yes there sex abuse and it’s been in Protestant churches too but they are not under such a spotlight and a lot goes unnoticed. The most prevalent place of sex abuse is in the public school system but we don’t stop sending our kids to school… Satan is out to destroy God’s work anyway possible but there is no way I would say bad outnumbers the good… Not even close. And yes I will defend it as many have before me. I would like to continue but I’m done.

          • Wesley Woods

            only in Martin Luther’s translation of Romans 1:17. alone can not be found in any Greek translation of the book of Romans. it is true if you tell a lie long enough people would start to believe it, and the protestant solas are proof.

          • William Allen

            You actually sound like me not too long ago until I quit listening to 3rd party “experts” on RCC. I don’t need to go to a 3rd party link to know about the history of the Catholic Church and what it believes. I would recommend to you that you go to http://www.catholic.com. There are some brilliant apologist that you can engage with on a forum setting. There are some great authors like Peter Kreeft, Karl Keeting and Scott Hahn to name a few that you can get the real truth about the Church.

            Catholics do believe that we are saved by God’s grace first. We are saved “not by faith alone”- James 2:24. The RCC does believe as Christ taught that “no one comes to the Father, but by Me”. You believe that it is a “wholly false Church”. Well you would have 15 centuries of those that gave their life defending this Church that would argue with you. Seriously… does that even make sense??

            In a certain sense yes we have the Spirit Body of Christ as a body of believers and I could get into what all that means but would be too long.
            Lets talk about the Church as far as Scripture. 1Tim 3:14-15 “I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark(foundation) of the truth.” Given the tens of thousands different denominations that can’t agree on interpretation of Scripture, then how can that be the pillar and foundation of truth? So it can’t be talking about a “Spirit Body of Christ” but rather it is an actual Church. Was Scripture meant to stand alone as in Sola Scriptura? No. The Catholic Church put the canon of Scripture, that we hold so dear, together and has defended it over the centuries. Having to put down heresy after heresy which led us to many of the councils. There was letter that Luther wrote Zwingli several years after the reformation where he stated that “if our faith is to survive, given all the different interpretation of Scripture present at this time, we need to flee back to the Church’s counsels and dogmas and seek refuge.” Even before reading this letter I had came to the same conclusion. Time after time I watch different churches that try to flow with the tides of society by bending Scripture to fit society. We should conform our lives to the Word of God, not the other way around. Example…..gay marriage. That seems to be the hot topic today. Scripture and Tradition has been clear on the issue but Churches are caving in to fit in. We are called to be “in the world, not of the world”. Without rules there is lawlessness, right?? yes. Without dogmas you get heresies. You allow Satan to confuse the faithful. To lie and deceive. This is were cults pop up because of someone’s own personal interpretation of Scripture…taken out of context. I’ve seen too many time where whole theologies are built from one verse. This is why there is a need, as Luther said, to flee back the Church’s counsels and dogmas.

            Ol Santa Clause. I am against how commercialize Christmas has became. But to say that the RCC honors Santa or St. Nick over Christ during Christmas is COMPLETELY false. I’m sure you’ve never been to Catholic mass through all the season of Advent or you would know this.

          • sandra slusarski

            I was raised Catholic, so I know how you feel and what you believe. I am a Christian now, and I very much appreciate that some other ex-Catholics explained the Bible to me. Please read your Bible. I began reading mine in order to prove those people wrong. Read Ephesians 2:8-9. “For by grace are you saved through faith….it is a GIFT from God, not of works…” Almost everything you and I were taught is not in the Bible. Please read it for yourself, and try to support their teachings. Ask God to show you.

          • Neiman

            God’s Grace alone, by faith alone and that in Christ alone, by that anyone accepting salvation in and through Christ will be saved. You are right and further, the true Church is not any man made religious organism, it is the Body of Christ, made up of millions of precious souls converted from idols to serve the Living God. We are, despite our many faults while in this mortal body, members one of another and one with Christ, when we add any self effort we stray from that simple truth.

          • winteryblackknight

            Read Mathew 25 and then explain to me how you can be saved without works

          • Neiman

            Almost everything in the Gospels is about showing the impossibility of salvation by works of the Law.

            I remind you that audience of Matthew is the Jews.

            The Bible is quite clear that our own works do not help merit salvation. We are saved “not because of righteous things we had done” (Titus 3:5). “Not by works” (Ephesians 2:9). “There is no one righteous, not even one” (Romans 3:10). This means that offering sacrifices, keeping the commandments, going to church, being baptized, and other good deeds are incapable of saving anyone. No matter how “good” we are, we can never measure up to God’s standard of holiness (Romans 3:23; Matthew 19:17; Isaiah 64:6).

            The Bible is just as clear that salvation is conditional; God does not save everyone. The one condition for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ. Nearly 200 times in the New Testament, faith (or belief) is declared to be the sole condition for salvation (John 1:12; Acts 16:31).

            One day, some people asked Jesus what they could do to please God: “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus immediately points them to faith: “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). So, the question is about God’s requirements (plural), and Jesus’
            answer is that God’s requirement (singular) is that you believe in Him.

            Grace is God’s giving us something we cannot earn or deserve. According to Romans 11:6, “works” of any kind destroys grace—the idea is that a worker earns payment, while the recipient of grace simply receives it, unearned. Since salvation is all of grace, it cannot be earned. Faith, therefore,
            is a non-work. Faith cannot truly be considered a “work,” or else it would destroy grace. (See also Romans 4—Abraham’s salvation was dependent on faith in God, as opposed to any work he performed.)

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/faith-work.html#ixzz3IuuuSF69

          • William Allen

            Need to learn the difference between works with respects to the Mosaic law, which is what is referenced here, and works along side faith as stated in the 2 chapter of James. 2 different works. Need to understand the context.

          • Neiman

            Sorry, I disagree. (a) James was not defending obedience to the Mosaic Law. If you recall it was he that spoke for the Apostles when Judaizers were trying to get Gentiles Christians to obey the Laws of Moses, wherein he advised these new believers to avoid sexual immorality, eating food offered to idols, and the blood of strangled animals and not one word about obeying the Law. He apologized to these Gentile believers for these Jewish Christians trying to bring them back under the Law.

            (b) In his epistle, James spoke only about the evidence of his faith being in the good works of love toward the brethren, being the only Commandment of Christ. He then contrasted it to those that said they had faith, even if real, and did not show this love being dead or useless. Even Jesus when speaking to the Jews mentioned the moral laws, not the ceremonial laws.

            (c) Grace and Law are contrary one to the other. The Holy Spirit through Paul tells us that if we try and obey the Law, we will be judged by the Law, which standard of obedience is absolute perfection or death in hell. If any works of the Law play any role in gaining or maintaining salvation, then salvation is a wage paid and no longer a gift, grace is no longer grace. Now before you, as most will do, rage about how we can sin and still be saved. First Jesus paid for all our sins and second, if our conversion is real, He lives His perfect life in and through us and we will find ourselves increasingly obeying in Spirit, not by the will of the flesh, the moral Laws of God because the love of Christ in us will fulfill them in and through our lives.

          • William Allen

            I didn’t say that James was defending obedience to the Mosaic law. I was referring to works. Works is so taboo these days because people feel that were are taking away from the sufficiency of Christ’s death on Calvary. Paul was putting down works with respects to the Mosaic Law, but not works as we are commanded to do. And James really spells that out. In response to your part (b).. James 2:26 says “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead” If a body is dead, is it not still a real body? yes, its just a dead body, but still a real body. So it is not talking about faith being real of not. In the 18th verse it says “‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” These were arguments going on at that time. 22nd verse says “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works” Its not works because of faith but rather faith active along with works.

            Paul says “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

            Are we judged by our faith or works? Works. Romans 2:6 “For he will render to ever man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

            Jesus asked “Where were you when I was naked and hungry…” “…depart from me.” We are called to run the race as Paul says. Of course with out faith we cannot please God. You need to have faith and works because we are commanded to.

          • Neiman

            First let us talk about Grace.

            By definition, Grace is a free gift, something we cannot merit, it is called an unmerited gift.

            If I gave you a gift and say here is what you must do to earn it, then surely it is not a gift at all, it is compensation for what you have done, you actually earned that falsely called gift. If I gave you a gift and said, here it is a free, unmerited gift, but if you mess up and are bad, I will take it back. Well, that makes God what we used to call an ‘Indian Giver,’ it was ‘a gift as we say with strings attached’ and therefore not a gift at all. So, if Salvation is a gift obtained by faith alone as the Holy Spirit tells us through Paul, surely we are accusing God of lying about it, if we have to do anything to earn it or keep from losing it. So if works are demanded, grace is not really grace at all.

            Now the same Holy Spirit tells us through James, if we “say” we are saved, but we see no evidence in a changed life, then surely our confession of such faith is seriously in question, as salvation demands that Christ is living His resurrected life in and through us when we are thus born again of His Spirit; and so, without any evidence of His love and goodness flowing through our lives, we probably are deceived and not really saved at all. It makes us into fruit inspectors, do we see fruits of the Spirit in good works in evidence, testifying to that confession of faith, if not, it was not real faith, it was dead and worthless.

            What are works? It is obeying Christ’s only command for Christians, loving the brethren (one another), good works are not in any way conscious obedience to the Law of Moses, it is how we treat each others as being members of the Body of Christ and indeed how we treat all people. If we act in love towards them and here is the ‘kicker’ as they say, if Christ is indeed living in us as a result of a genuine conversion, it will be His good works of His love operating in and through us, wherein He justly receives all the glory, not us; and, if we walk in His Love, notice I did not say emotion based feelings, but in genuine selfless, self sacrificial agape love, it would not be real love to steal, murder, commit adultery or to violate any of the moral laws of God. Yet, we do not even do this by the force of our human will, it is not will power, it is Christ in us loving each other and even our enemies and His love having changed our very nature just flows in and through us, because that is who we now are in Christ. Lastly, in all of this there is no credit to us that we might boast of those good works, all glory and honor for these good works of love are to the glory of Christ in us. That is why we see those in Heaven, throwing their crowns, symbols of rewards at Jesus feet, because they know it was He is them that earned them and so deserves all the honor.

            That brings us to Romans 2:6:

            God will be the Judge, who is righteous, holy, just, and true; every man
            in particular will be judged; as the judgment will be general to all,
            it will be special to everyone, and will proceed according to their
            works; for God will render to wicked men according to the demerit of
            their sins, the just recompense of reward, eternal damnation; and to
            good men eternal life, not according to the merit of their good works,
            which have none in them, but according to the nature of them; such who
            believe in Christ, and perform good works from a principle of grace,
            shall receive the reward of the inheritance, which is a reward of grace,
            and not of debt. In other words, God will render to evil men according
            to the true desert of their evil deeds; and of his own free grace will
            render to good men, whom he has made so by his grace, what is suitable
            and agreeable to those good works, which, by the assistance of his
            grace, they have been enabled to perform.

            http://christiannews.net/2014/11/12/kirk-cameron-raising-concerns-after-coming-out-in-support-of-santa-claus/#comment-1691648120</blockquote.

            Thus even in these rewards, Jesus will receive all the glory and we the blessings of His good works in and through our lives.

          • William Allen

            No argument about Grace and salvation being a free gift. However you can refuse a gift. See you and other fundamentalists like to say that works has be only about meriting sometime with respects to salvation. We are not trying to earn our way to Heaven. Jesus said “if you love me, you will keep my commandments” To ignore works is to ignore Christ Himself and you will be judged for that.

          • Neiman

            Most human beings ever born have refused that gift of salvation.

            His Commandments are to love one another, but even that love is in and through Jesus and if one is born again, that love will cause them to do no harm to anyone and thus fulfill the moral commandments of God, not by a conscious act, but by the new Spirit life with.

          • Paul McNamara

            “Most human beings ever born have refused that gift of salvation.”

            How do you know that? Jesus came that all might be saved. I am not suggesting that all are saved, mind you, but it is not our place to judge God at work in the human heart.

          • Neiman

            “Matthew 7:14 teaches that there are only a few people that make it to Heaven. The reason is not because salvation is hard, it is not hard. Salvation is quite easy. 2nd Corinthians 11:3 in the King James Bible speaks of THE SIMPLICITY THAT IS IN CHRIST. We are the SINNERS and Jesus is the
            SAVIOR. It’s that simple. So then why do only a few people make it to Heaven?

            The reason why is because most people have been deceived by false religion and secular philosophy. The Bible says in 2nd Corinthians 4:4 that Satan is the GOD OF THIS WORLD, and that he hath BLINDED THE MINDS OF THEM WHICH BELIEVE NOT… lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.:,/i>

            Yes, Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, for every human being that has ever lived ever will live. Yet, it is like being offered a pardon for your crimes, but you refusing to admit your crimes, if you refuse the pardon, you will be lost. A Pardon is not a pardon, it has no effect, unless it is accepted. Further, it must be accepted on his grounds and his grounds only, which is by sincere faith in Jesus as both Savior and Lord.

            The Bible tells us that very few, as compared to all the people that ever lived or ever will live, will except that pardon on his grounds. That is the unfortunate outcome of free will.

          • Paul McNamara

            Blessings to all. I am a Catholic (which means I am a Christian belonging to the “universal” church), who only read this article at the request of a friend.

            Neiman stated:
            “By definition, Grace is a free gift, something we cannot merit, it is called an unmerited gift.”

            It is a disservice to God’s grace to narrow it to a free gift alone, without clarifying it’s REAL essence. God’s grace is God’s own life, his power and love, alive in us, which transforms the person who receives it and bears fruit in the world around them.

            We are saved by grace because, through it, “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal. 2:20). Doing so is a “cross” that we carry, because we prefer to live by the flesh. By saying “yes” to God’s grace, God manifests his great will in our lives and it justifies and sanctifies us. It is foolish to try and separate faith from works, as both are the gift of God at work in us.

            This is our salvation, that we might do the will of the one who sent us. We must die to self and live like Christ. We can’t do so on our own power, but through God’s grace all things are possible.

            It is also foolish to focus on faith as an interior relationship with Christ, while ignoring our role in the body of Christ. Both are essential and our salvation depends on both, as we are made as both spiritual and physical beings.

            The Catholic Church has been given authority to clarify and proclaim the truth. The subjective nature of Protestantism– personal interpretation of scripture, personal morality, rejection of corporal worship and Sacraments– has led Protestants to embrace the world and it’s errors (contraception, divorce and remarriage, gay marriage, etc.). As this trend manifests itself, the Catholic Church will stand alone in proclaiming the truth and will be a clear and distinct light to those with eyes to see.

            In summary, to study the true teachings of the Catholic Church, rather than secondary sources, is the only way to make a proper judgement. May God bless those who seek him with a sincere heart.

          • Neiman

            I have no real problem with this:

            “By definition, Grace is a free gift, something we cannot merit, it is called an unmerited gift.” It is a disservice to God’s grace to narrow it to a free gift alone, without clarifying it’s REAL essence. God’s grace is God’s own life, his power and love, alive in us, which transforms the person who receives it and bears fruit in the world around them.

            We are saved by grace because, through it, “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Gal. 2:20). Doing so is a “cross” that we carry, because we prefer to live by the flesh. By saying “yes” to God’s grace,

            “God manifests his great will in our lives and it justifies and sanctifies us.”

            To summarize, sanctification is the same
            Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second,a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html#ixzz3Iz1B7vrM

            “It is foolish to try and separate faith from works, as both are the gift of God at work in us.”

            It depends upon what you call works, if consciously obeying the Law of Moses, then I would strongly disagree. It it is good works, love for the brethren and yes the world, then it is a result of Christ living His life in and through us and our surrendering to His Will. Although, if we walk in HIS love, love does no harm and will naturally fulfill the moral Laws of God due to our changed nature.

            This is our salvation, that we might do the will of the one who sent us. We must die to self and live like Christ. We can’t do so on our own power, but through God’s grace all things are possible.

            Again I agree!

            I totally disagree with about the Roman catholic Church:

            http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

            Lastly, IMO the Catholic Church is the Great Whore, the False Church, the mother of spiritual harlots (all organized religion) and the seat of the False Prophet.

          • Paul McNamara

            The gotquestions website that you keep referencing is not objective. You owe it to yourself to study the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as the writings of the early Church Fathers, to make a more informed analysis of how the Holy Spirit has guided the Catholic Church through the ages.

            Even if you limit yourself to the Acts of the Apostles, it is clear that their was hierarchy, authority, liturgy and a mission given to the Church. God bless you on your journey.

          • Neiman

            Of course any website, any source that exposes the lie of the Roman Catholic Church will be rejected by you as not being objective. Big shock.

            I know that: (a) James became the recognized head of the Church in Jerusalem, not Peter. (b) Peter by his own admission, while the first to open the door to the Gentiles, was the Apostle to the Jews. (c) Paul was the Apostle to the world, to the Gentiles, not Peter. (d) I know that there is zero objective evidence Peter was ever in Rome at all (Paul was). (e) I know that Paul had to reprove Peter for hypocrisy. (f) There is not the slightest hint that Apostolic succession was a doctrine of the Church, except for Matthias who was by lot given the place of Judas. (g) I know that the lie about Peter having the keys to the kingdom is just that, a lie by Rome. It was his confession of faith in Christ that were the keys to the Kingdom. (h) I know that Jesus is the head of the Church, no mortal; and His Spirit is its Teacher and Guide into all Truth, not these priests from Rome.

            I know that the first so-called Pope did not assume power over the scattered local church groups until about 350-500 years after Christ and
            the foundation of the Roman church is none other than the pagan mystery
            religion of ancient Babylon.

          • Paul McNamara

            With all due respect, the fact that you claim to “know” so much is proof of your blindness. You were not there. You rely on what your mind has filtered on it’s own and through the sources that appeal to you.

            I prefer to rely on the unbroken succession of bishops by the laying on of hands and the promise of Christ that “the gates of hades will not prevail against the church” built upon the rock of Peter (Mt 16:18). Your accusations that the Church fell into pagan idolatry would make Christ a liar if you were correct.

            Furthermore, the teachings of the Church on faith and morals are consistent, developing but never contradictory. For the 2000-year history of the Church it has been so, and when heresies spring up, the Church has reflected, provided answers and proclaimed the truth of Christ to the world.

            Protestantism, on the other hand, has countless examples of division and doctrine changing over time. Your personal interpretation of how one can be saved is not even agreed upon by all in your camp. These inconsistencies are a stumbling block to a world that seeks answers.

          • Neiman

            “The New Testament make it clear that the head of the church is Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:17–18a teaches, “And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church.” This passage
            makes a brief comparison between the human body and the church. The church is the body, and Jesus is the head. Jesus was before all things and holds all things together. This includes the church as well.”

            No alleged Vicar of Christ is the Head of His Church, Jesus will give that role to no man.

            “The implications of this teaching are profound. First, church leaders are to surrender ultimate leadership to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One who leads and determines the teachings and practices of the church. Church members are to follow
            Christ first and earthly leaders second, only as those leaders emulate Christ.”

            “Second, the love Jesus has for the church is expressed in His desire that we also love the church. The church is not a building or organization but a group of people who know and
            worship Jesus. Christians are taught, “Let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching” (Hebrews 10:24–25). Regular connection with other believers honors the Lord, encourages us personally as believers, and allows us to encourage and serve others.

            While every church will have its own local leaders, the ultimate leader of any church is the Lord Jesus. He said, “I will build my church” (Matthew 16:18, emphasis added); it belongs to Him. He is the head of the body and the only One with the power to adequately lead and love the church.

            “As he spoke in the name of them all, to Christ; so Christ spake to him, including them all. Peter had no preeminence over the rest of the apostles, which he neither assumed, nor was it granted; nor would it ever have been connived at by Christ, who often showed his resentment at such a spirit and conduct, whenever there was any appearance of it in any of them; see ( Matthew 18:1-3 ) ( 20:25-28 ). Peter, as an apostle, had no successor in his office; nor was he bishop
            of Rome; nor has the pope of Rome either his office, or his doctrine: but here, by the rock, is meant, either the confession of faith made by Peter; not the act, nor form, but the matter of it, it containing the prime articles of Christianity, and which are as immoveable as a rock or of Christ”

            The Roman Catholic Church has NOT been existence for 2000 years, as the first Pope and the first rule over the many congregations by this pretender to the Lord;s Throne did not occur until 350-500 years after the Resurrection. It has no connection at all to the Apostles, it has no earthly authority of the Church of our dear Lord and is a false Church.

            While I am not Catholic, I am not a Protestant either, in the sense that I am not now nor have I ever availed myself of membership of any man made Church, I am a part of the Body of Christ, Him being my only Head and Lord and His Spirit being my only Teacher and Guide into all Truth, as He dwells in me by faith and by/through the Word.

          • Paul McNamara

            Our first parents had a much more direct and personal relationship with Christ than you do, yet they fell. To claim that you are not Catholic nor Protestant is to make yourself the sole authority of your faith. You may be convinced that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but you are deceived.

            The Lord seeks a contrite heart. We know so little about the mysteries of God. God reveals himself in steps and in small ways, that He might woo us like a lover. Otherwise, it would be too much for us.

            The Church is a great gift to us and Christ is very much the head. He is the king and the pope is his prime minister. There is no conflict. Just as Christ inspired the writers of the Bible, so he continues up until this day to make His ways known to us through fallible men.

            If one believes, as you rightly do, that the Holy Spirit is at work in the hearts of men, then why do you stubbornly refuse that he can work in the office of the papacy? Why do you believe that God is leading YOU into all truth, yet you believe that He does not work in a Church (or religion)? Are you more holy, that God grants you favors that he can not grant a teaching authority? Is God not powerful enough to lead a Church?

            Does God not will that all of His creation should have an opportunity to have the Gospel proclaimed to them and is not the Church, whom He commissioned, given gifts to do so?

            Do you not see the scandal that you embrace, that we are not one, although Jesus prayed that we would be one, like Him and His Father?

          • William Allen

            Amen

          • Kim Deaton

            I understand what you are trying to explain, but your statement about how the catholic church will stand alone in proclaiming the truth, is a clear light only to the fact that you are ignoring the part in the bible that states that religion has nothing to do with salvation and when God calls his children, there will be many who are bitter asking why they have not been called, and mentioning all the works and good deeds they have done. And in so many words, God tells them they can do all the good works in the world, but their hearts were not where they should be. I have never read anywhere in the bible where it states that if you attend any certain church, that you automatically have your ticket to eternal life with our savior. Think whatever you like, but we will all see in the end. I do however love the part of your post where you say, ” May God bless those who seek him with a sincere heart. ” because therein lies true salvation. 🙂

          • winteryblackknight

            That’s because you are misinterpreting scripture and taking passages out of context. Of course Christ’s audience was the Jews. His audience always was the Jews or the Samaritans. His description of the judgement applies to evryone, not just the Jews. As St James says, faith without works is dead. It is mere lip service. And we know what Jesus said about the lukewarm. To properly interpret a passage of scripture it must be consistent with all other passages. Jesus also said not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of God but he who does the will of My Father. Implies more than an expression of faith. And the parable of the fig tree which is metaphoric of us. The tree that does not produce fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.The RC Church teaches that both faith and works are required for salvation through grace. That has been the teaching of the Church passed down from the Apostles. Luther on his own authority (he had no legitimate authority other than was given him by his bishop) came up with faith alone because he struggled with santification. He had sins he did not want to give up. Works assist with a person’s sanctification. Christ commanded us to be holy because I am holy. To become holy requires a process of sanctification. Sanctification happens through receiving grace from the sacraments, prayer, acts of piety and penances and good works.

          • Neiman

            A. I do not care what the RCC teaches, it is, IMO, and always has been – apostate, a false religion and every Pope sits in the seat of the False Prophet.

            B. I cannot possibly correct all the many errors you offer above, yours and the RCC is a religion wherein man is on the Throne of Christ, by their works of the flesh they earn their own salvation – they think they merit God’s grace, but they deny grace and hold Christ up to shame. They have become their own co-redeemers, one man who does it well and is better than one who does not do it so well. Yet, God says that if we live by the Law, we will be judged by the Law, we are outside of Grace and a single, tiny infraction of the Law will send us to hell. It is either Law or Grace, they are mutually exclusive.

            C. For those born again, all our sins are forgiven past, present and future. We cannot come into condemnation. Yet, the Holy Spirit through John tells us that as long as we are in the flesh we will sin, that is the flesh will sin and we have an Advocate before the Throne, Jesus is there always making intercession for us and further, He constantly washes our feet (sanctification) as the Servant He will always be to the true believer and that washing makes us, while still in the flesh, every whit clean and able to stand before the Father in good conscience. None of this is dispensed by any so-called church on earth or priests or acts of piety, sacraments or prayer, it is by Jesus alone.

            D. Works are not works of the Law of Moses, they are good works of love toward the brethren. If we love and that can only be by the Love of Christ in us, we will naturally, not by our own will power, find ourselves obeying the moral laws of God, because His Love in us does no harm. It is like this: In the natural man, I cannot love my enemies, I hate them, but being in Christ He changes my nature to that of is Own Spirit and I find myself loving my enemies, not by the force of my will, but because Christ in me is flowing in His Love towards them, I now have His nature.

            Everything you said above, albeit you will deny it, is a denial of Grace, it is elevating man upon God’s Throne and is anti-Christ.

          • winteryblackknight

            St. Paul said “with fear and trembling work out your salvation” which means baptism does not forgive the sins of the future and salvation is something that must be constantly worked on. We are saved if we are faithful to the end. Why did Christ give the Apostles the power to forgive sins? Certainly God’s grace is necessary for us to assist us in sanctification and performing good works. It’s a process. Maybe if you studied the saints you might see how to be a faithful disciple of Christ. Christ warned about you – false prophets that would lead many astray.Comparing the saints to anti-Christ. You have no excuse for that. It will bring judgement on yourself because you are no better than the pharisees who threw a similar label on Christ. You selectively choose your scripture and ignore that which contradicts your interpretation

          • Neiman

            work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; which is to be understood not in such a sense as though men could obtain and procure for themselves spiritual and eternal salvation by their own works and doings; for such a sense is contrary to the Scriptures, which deny any part of salvation, as election, justification, and calling, and the whole of it to be of works, but ascribe it to the free grace of God; and is also repugnant to the perfections of God, as his wisdom, grace, and righteousness; for where are the wisdom and love of God, in forming a scheme of salvation, and sending his Son to effect it, and after all it is left to men to work it out for themselves? and where is the justice of God in admitting of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one, which must be the case, if salvation is obtained by men’s works? for these are imperfect, even the best of them; and is
            another reason against this sense of the passage; and were they perfect, they could not be meritorious of salvation, for the requisites of merits are wanting in them. Moreover, was salvation to be obtained by the works of men, these consequences would follow; the death of Christ would be in vain, boasting would be encouraged in men, they would have
            whereof to glory, and their obligations to obedience taken from the love of God, and redemption by Christ, would be weakened and destroyed: add to all this, that the Scriptures assure us, that salvation is alone by Christ; and that it is already finished by him, and not to be wrought out now by him, or any other; and that such is the weakness and impotence of men, even of believers, to whom this exhortation is directed, that it is impossible for them ever to affect it; therefore, whatever sense these words have, we may be sure that this can never possibly be the sense of them. The words may be rendered, “work about your salvation”; employ yourselves in things which accompany salvation, and to be performed by all those that expect it, though not to be expected for the performance of them; such as hearing of the word, submission to Gospel ordinances, and a discharge of every branch of moral, spiritual, and evangelical obedience for which the apostle before commends them, and now exhorts them to continue in; to go on in a course of cheerful obedience to the close of their days, believing in Christ, obeying his Gospel, attending constantly to his word and ordinances, and discharging every duty in faith and fear, until at last they should receive the end of their faith, the salvation of their souls: agreeably the Syriac version renders the words, (Nwkyyxd anxlwp wxwlp) , “do the work”, or “business of your lives”; the work you are to do in
            your generation, which God has prescribed and directed you to, which the grace of God teaches, and the love of Christ constrains to. Do all that “with fear and trembling”; not with a slavish fear of hell and damnation, or lest they should fall away, or finally miscarry of heaven and happiness; since this would be a distrust of the power and faithfulness of God, and so criminal in them; nor is it reasonable to suppose, that the apostle would exhort to such a fear, when he himself
            was so confidently assured, that the good work begun in them would be performed; and besides, the exhortation would be very oddly formed, if this was the sense, “work out your salvation with fear” of damnation: but this fear and trembling spoken of, is such as is consistent with the highest acts of faith, trust, confidence, and joy, and is opposed to
            pride and vain glory; see ( Psalms 2:11 ) ( 115:11 ) ( Romans 11:20 ) ; and intends modesty and humility, which is what the apostle is pressing for throughout the whole context; and here urges to a cheerful and constant obedience to Christ, with all humility of soul, without dependence on it, or vain glorying in it, but ascribing it wholly to the grace of God,

            http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/philippians-2-12.html

          • winteryblackknight

            That’s a self serving interpretation which doesn’t make sense. And it is not the teaching passed down from the Apostles

          • Neiman

            I have never ignored Scripture which seemingly oppose what I believe to be the Truth.

            If you deny the all sufficiency of Christ an dallow that men are responsible by their own acts for their own salvation, that surely is the spirit of the anti-Christ, which does not mean one is not saved, but like when Jesus called Peter Satan, being in harmony with that spirit, though surely he was saved.

            If I lift up Jesus and the Grace of Go only as the way to salvation and eschew any of the worship of St, Nicklaus, wherein am I a false prophet?

          • winteryblackknight

            Who is calling for worship of St. Nicholas? Remembering him and honoring him for his faithful devotion to Jesus by his good works and example doesn’t take away from Christ. You are a false prophet in that you deny much of what the Church teaches and received from the Apostles who received it from Christ

          • Neiman

            Every word of defense of St. Nicklaus by you folk and his having a greater role in the Christmas season that Christ, is to worship him as being if not greater, certainly of nearly as great importance as Jesus.

            I only deny what the false RCC teaches, never God’s Word.

          • winteryblackknight

            Who gives St. Nicholas a greater role in the Christmas season than Christ? Some people might who don’t practice any faith. But St. Nicholas may lead the children to Christ. Christ said to the Apostles: He who denies you denies Me and the One who sent Me. You deny the RCC and their teaching you deny Christ since the bishops of the Chruch are the succesors of the Apostles

          • Neiman

            Neither the RCC or its bishops have any direct connection to the Apostles – none. They are not the true Church, the true Church is the Body of Christ, made up of individual believers and has no connection to any man made religious organization.

            nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the
            apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of
            “apostolic succession.” Further, neither is Peter presented as “supreme”
            over the other apostles. The apostle Paul, in fact, rebukes Peter when
            Peter was leading others astray (Galatians 2:11-14).
            Yes, the apostle Peter had a prominent role. Yes, perhaps the apostle
            Peter was the leader of the apostles (although the book of Acts records
            the apostle Paul and Jesus’ brother James as also having prominent
            leadership roles). Whatever the case, Peter was not the “commander” or
            supreme authority over the other apostles. Even if apostolic succession
            could be demonstrated from Scripture, which it cannot, apostolic
            succession would not result in Peter’s successors being absolutely
            supreme over the other apostles’ successors.

            Catholics point to Matthias being chosen to replace Judas as the twelfth
            apostle in Acts chapter 1 as an example of apostolic succession. While
            Matthias did indeed “succeed” Judas as an apostle, this is in no sense
            an argument for continuing apostolic succession. Matthias being chosen
            to replace Judas is only an argument for the church replacing ungodly
            and unfaithful leaders (such as Judas) with godly and faithful leaders
            (such as Matthias). Nowhere in the New Testament are any of the twelve
            apostles recorded as passing on their apostolic authority to successors.
            Nowhere do any of the apostles predict that they will pass on their
            apostolic authority. No, Jesus ordained the apostles to build the
            foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20).
            What is the foundation of the church that the apostles built? The New
            Testament – the record of the deeds and teachings of the apostles. The
            church does not need apostolic successors. The church needs the
            teachings of the apostles accurately recorded and preserved. And that is
            exactly what God has provided in His Word (Ephesians 1:13; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 4:2).

            In short, apostolic succession is not biblical. The concept of apostolic
            succession is never found in Scripture. What is found in Scripture is
            that the true church will teach what the Scriptures teach and will
            compare all doctrines and practices to Scripture in order to determine
            what is true and right. The Roman Catholic Church claims that a lack of
            ongoing apostolic authority results in doctrinal confusion and chaos. It
            is an unfortunate truth (that the apostles acknowledged) that false
            teachers would arise (2 Peter 2:1).
            Admittedly, the lack of “supreme authority” among non-Catholic churches
            results in many different interpretations of the Bible. However, these
            differences in interpretation are not the result of Scripture being
            unclear. Rather, they are the result of even non-Catholic Christians
            carrying on the Catholic tradition of interpreting Scripture in
            accordance with their own traditions. If Scripture is studied in its
            entirety and in its proper context, the truth can be easily determined.
            Doctrinal differences and denominational conflicts are a result of some
            Christians refusing to agree with what Scripture says – not a result of
            there being no “supreme authority” to interpret Scripture.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/apostolic-succession.html#ixzz3IypEj3rx

          • winteryblackknight

            You must be aware that there was no scripture for at least 30 or 40 years after Pentacost and even then wasn’t adopted as a canon of the New Testament till the 4th century by agreement of the bishops of the Church – Councils of Hippo and Carthage. So the new testament was determined by the authority which you reject. Beccuase you reject sacred tradition you can’t accept apostolic succession even though Paul commanded to”Hold to the traditions you have been taught. The Church operated on primarily tradition till the 4th century.
            Acts13:3 The Church at Antioch laid hands on Saul and Barnabas with prayer and fasting to commission them on their pilgrimmage.
            Acts 14:22 The Apostles appointed presbyters (or elders) in each of the Churches.
            Acts 20:28 Paul has appointed bishops or presiding elders to rule the church
            Ttitus 1:5 presbyters are appointed. Both James, Peter, and Timothy refer to presbyters, Timothy refers to Bishops or presiding Elders and deacons as well.
            St. Iraneous who was a Bishop of Lyon 2nd century describes the Church under the Bishop of Rome and her liturgies much as it is today. He was a disciple of St. Polycarp who in turn was a diciple of the Apostle John himself. I trust the tradition passed down from generation to generation before I would trust the traditions created by men on their own authority. Authority has to be passed down by one who previously received it. You can’t assign it to yourself on your own authority. We know from scripture Christ received authority from the Father who in turn passed it to the Apostles who in turn passed it on presbyters and bishops which appointed.
            The fact that there are so many protestant denominations all with different interpretations of scripture is a testimony against yout theories. This confusion only serves to benefit Satan. People can’t come to a right interpretation of scripture on their own. It requires guidance and instruction – a teaching authority which has a continuity.
            Even the Old Testament has an authority through succession. Christ Himself said regarding the jewish authorities: “Do what they say because they sit on the seat of Moses. Just don’t do what they do because they don’t practice what they preach.”

          • William Allen

            “Throne of Christ”??? Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. Christ left the keys to Peter. Were those keys not intended to be continued to be passed down?? Look into the Old Testament and you’ll see where this example came from.

            Once saved always saved belief. Show me that in Scripture. Can you forfeit your salvation? yes and the example of the Prodigal son is an example of this. Of course He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Can someone fall from Grace? yes. When Paul was speaking to the Galatians, who were born again Christians, he spoke against those of the Church that went back to the Mosaic Law… Gal 5:4 “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” I hope you don’t believe if you say the sinners prayer that gives you a license to sin in the future, die unrepentant and think you will inherit the kingdom of God???? Maybe you need to read all of Paul’s letters to the Churches who by the way are Christians and listen to his counsel. Here’s you one of many… Gal 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before , that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
            I love how you think that you “can’t possibly correct all the many errors you offer from above” By your authority??

          • Neiman

            Keys of the Kingdom

            http://www.gotquestions.org/keys-of-the-kingdom.html

            I have answered your questions before and am weary of this constant twisting of my words. I never suggested anything like your accusations imply.

          • Joy Lowery

            You are saved by who you are in Christ not by what you do. God knows every heart…

          • winteryblackknight

            What you do reflects just who you are in Christ and what your faith is. The Catholic Church has never taught by works alone. Works put your faith into practice and aids in personal sanctification.

          • Joy Lowery

            2 Cor. 10:17 Unless you are boasting no one knows of your works, so it doesn’t reflect to anyone. Your faith shows by sharing God’s Word.

          • winteryblackknight

            The passage talks about boasting. If one should boast they should boast of the Lord. It doesn’t negate my statement. You need to read Mathew 25

          • Joy Lowery

            I will agree to disagree on that one…

          • Maya Pinion

            I think I understand what you are saying, that you cannot EARN your way into Heaven through good deeds, and I agree. However, faith without works is incomplete faith.

            James 2:14-17
            14 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?
            15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,
            16 and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,’ without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?
            17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

            If you don’t like James, then consider Matthew 7:21:

            21 ‘It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in Heaven.

            Jesus gave us two commandments: Love God, love one another. If we do not do the work he commanded us to do, we are sinning by omission and breaking his commandment.

        • ItchyTheClone

          Please! We must not focus on our differences. You can find people who don’t believe as you do in any church. We must unite and focus on what the Bible says. All of the rest of this is petty bickering and not the work of the Holy Spirit. When we unite, we are strong and when we bicker, we turn people away from Christ. Let’s focus on loving one another as Christ loves us and so continue the work that Jesus set for us to do.

        • winteryblackknight

          You must be on drugs. The Catholic Church and Orthodox are the only ones who can trace back to the Apostles

      • Neiman

        The Roman Catholic Church does not have any direct connection to the Apostles or the Apostolic faith. The true Church is the Body of Christ, not some man made ecclesiastical organization. It is made up of all true believers in Christ, spread out among most Christians groups, but not in Spirit part of them.

      • winteryblackknight

        You must be Orthodox. Before the split there was one Catholic Church headed by the Bishop of Rome. Constantinople barely existed till Constantine moved his capital.

    • Neiman

      Christianity is about being saved by grace alone, through faith alone and that in Christ alone. The Catholic Church saves no one. If any Catholic call themselves Christian on that ground, if they are/were sincerely converted to Christ and are devoted to Him alone as their Lord and Savior, if that is the basis for their claims, they are indeed Christians.

      These people suffering for Christ, if they are holding on to Him and not the Catholic Church to save them, they are indeed suffering for Jesus and those slaughtered are true martyrs. Not because they are members of the Roman Catholic Church. I pray for them all daily, Untold numbers of evangelicals have and are still suffering in a similar manner for the cause of Christ all over the Muslim world and suffering here at home by a government hateful of their faith. So, while you accuse evangelicals of being anti-Catholic, you are guilty of the same sin in being anti-evangelical.

      • Michael Massey

        No denomination saves anyone, whether it be roman Catholic or Protestant . Being an evangelical does not save you as well, it is , as you point out , the Grace of Jesus Christ. Now here is an important point, we can only see the fruit and even the best of us with the best “eyesight” can be wrong. One’s salvation is only through Jesus Christ , is assured through Jesus Christ and HE knows whether or not one is saved. We cannot see the heart, Jesus can. He proved that on the cross with the thief on His right . Neiman, while what you posted correct in many ways, to assume all Roman Catholics aren’t saved is incorrect, it isn’t our place to do that. we are to preach the Gospel, not condemn someone because their reception of the Gospel may be different .

        • Neiman

          You have not read all my comments, I have said most clearly that if a member of the Catholic Church has been saved by grace alone, by faith alone, in Christ alone and wherein He is their only Savior and Lord – they are brothers and sisters in Christ, despite having some beliefs which I would think otherwise harmful.

      • ItchyTheClone

        John 3:16

        • Neiman

          Great passage, what is your point though?

          • ItchyTheClone

            My point is that Those who confess Jesus and claim the blood of the Lamb has as much salvation as anyone does. Calling someone a liar does not and never will bring them to that point. Calling people names because they err (in my opinion) is just as blasphemous as cursing God.

          • Neiman

            Sadly, you do not understand salvation nor what the word blasphemy means. (a) There has to be a genuine belief in God, or what is the point? (b) There has to a knowledge that one is a sinner and destined for hell, or why seek a Savior? (c) One has to repent of those sins, which is not begging forgiveness, but agreeing with God about the matter and having a sincere desire to overcome those sin in our lives. (d) One has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit and sincerely ask Jesus to be their Savior and the Lord of their lives. Those are not works or steps, but are implied as being involved in what John 3:16 is teaching.

            Next, it is the duty of any Christian to bring reproof to a brother to save him from the errors of his ways in this life, though surely they are saved even if we fail them. Allowing Santa to be so uplifted and made so central to the celebration of Christ’s birth, is needful of loving reproof, even if the hearer does not think it loving at the moment.

          • ItchyTheClone

            I disagree with just about everything you are saying. I had no “genuine belief” in God when I was saved. I did not even know what it meant. I had no specific desire to repent. I had no clue what that even meant.

            And, I can tell you with utter certainty that if you had spoken to me in this manner before I made a decision for Christ, I would have punched you square in the face, laughed, and turned my back.

            Christ’s love brought me to repentance. He is patient and gentle. Your judgmental attitude does not fit with Christ’s teachings and there is no love in your reproof. That is evidenced by the fact that you eagerly give “advise” but you come off as thinking you are above taking it.

            Here is the difference between judgement and repentance. You are judging people when you are making up a list of the things that they have to do. You are repenting if you are making up a list of things that you have to do.

            Whether you choose to stop judging and repent is between you and the Lord. I have no say in the matter. I make these posts to show other people that not everyone is like you are.

          • Neiman

            I am only glad you accepted Jesus, assuming you really have., The rest of your words are judgmental and wrong.

            a. If you did not believe God existed then things stopped there, unless God sent someone to prove to you that He does exist, wherein you then examined the matter more carefully and did believe before repentance and salvation.
            b. If you did not repent, you were not saved, repentance must precede salvation, without repentance there is no salvation; however, if you did at some point repent, God sent someone to you wherein the Holy Spirit convicted you of sin and you did then repent.
            c. I made it clear it was not a list or of works, but the conditions of heart and mind that have to exist, or there can be no genuine conversion from idols and to God.
            d. It is okay if you punched me, they killed John the Baptist, they murdered Christ, they killed most of the Apostles, beat Paul, stoned him and likewise treated a host of martyrs.

            I have not judged according to God’s Word. I encourage you to read the whole article below to get a Christian education:

            This is an issue that has confused many people. On one hand, we are commanded by the Lord Jesus, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). On the other hand, the Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of
            judgment about them?

            Christians are often accused of “judging” whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, “Do not judge.” There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise—with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html#ixzz3Iur16SXK

          • ItchyTheClone

            1 Corinthians 13

          • Neiman

            Surely this is Divine Truth, it is the command of Christ, the only commandment of Christ for believers, it is both the only means of any truly good works, as the Holy Spirit through James calls us to and it is only by Love that we obey the moral Commandments of God. For every such Law is based on love, as an example, if we love one another, we will not steal from each other which is the fulfilling of the Law saying Thous Shalt not steal, that is what love is and on and on each such Law is only fulfilled through love.

            Yet, love does not ignore sin, it hates sin because for the lost sin separates them from God forever and for believers, it breaks fellowship with God until repented, which is exactly why John the baptist came and each believer acts accordingly, first calling for repentance to prepare the way/heart fro Christ. Repentance comes first and then we can receive Christ and His love will be in us. yet, every time a Christian speaks against sin in the love of God, the world hates us, because they cannot tolerate having to repent of their sins. Love does not ignore or ever excuse sin, it first calls for repentance.

            Yet, the love of the natural man, the man of flesh is not selfless, it is not self sacrificial and no man truly loves anyone else, at best they have strong, kindly, natural affections. If God commands you to love and you have not that love in your heart, can you force yourself to love anyone? No! So God calls us to love, but not having that love in us naturally, we cannot obey and are lost, we cannot force love, forced love is not love at all, it is a false love. Which is why we have free will, God will not force us to love Him.

            So that command, those descriptions of love are useless, for God says we are all evil, all have gone out of the way, no one is good, no not a single human being. So, we are all lost, right? No, the only way we can Love is to have the Love of God in our hearts and that love is of, by and through God alone and it can only be possible if we are born again of His Spirit and if He then lives His selfless, self sacrificial, abundant love in and through us. That requires that by faith, His faith in us, we consider the old man, the natural, loveless man to have died with Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit, we are transformed by the renewing of our minds into the resurrected life of Christ, where as Scripture tells us, we no longer live, but it is Christ living in and through us by His Spirit.

            So, to call for love and say it is the same whether we are saved or not, is false, the only love is the Love of God and all we can do is surrender our lives to Him that He might love truly through us. All else is false and anti-Christ.

          • ItchyTheClone

            1) Love does not “hate” anything. Love is love and never hates.

            2) It is not up to you or me to correct sinners. (that is to judge them) The only mission that Christ gave his followers is to love each other as He loves them and to love God with all our might. Everything else flows from that. In the world it is called “leading by example”.

            The Holy Spirit corrects sinners through our love for them. It is true that if someone willfully and repeatedly sins that they place their salvation in jeopardy, but that is not our affair. It’s between them and Christ. Human beings are not qualified to judge any sin because we have all sinned and fallen short of God’s perfection. Christ’s love for us never wavers and ours should not waver either, but God knows that we are humans and intrinsically imperfect and so when our love inevitably wavers, He forgives us.

            To say that a person must first keep the law before they can have salvation goes directly against what Jesus teaches. Salvation is a gift that you can not earn by any effort on your part. It is all taken care of by Jesus Himself. To deny that is to call Jesus into question.

          • Neiman

            Why do you lie against me? I have NEVER said nor even remotely hinted that man must keep the Law to gain salvation, I have only taught salvation by grace alone. You deliberately, consciously lied about what I have said and that is a sin.

            The Bible also exhorts us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil. How are we to discern who these people are if we do not make some kind of judgment about them?

            Christians are often accused of “judging” whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, “Do not judge.” There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise—with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html#ixzz3IyCqxnaT

          • ItchyTheClone

            On the contrary, you said “Repentance comes first and then we can receive Christ and His love will be in us.” What I am saying is simply that repentance happens as a result of receiving Christ and His love.

            This is not a matter of semantics. (which I would count as unimportant) By saying that repentance must come first, you are putting barriers up for people who want to receive Christ as their Lord and Savior. Jesus put up barriers to prevent people from failing to receive Him by loving people and working miracles.

            When the bible exhorts us to “beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of evil” it is calling us to repent, not to judge. If you avoid “all kinds of evil” you will be avoiding the entire human race, including yourself because all of us are sinners. Our only mission given to us by Christ is to love God and love His children.

            Worry about fixing your own life before you consider how other peoples lives need to be fixed. You are the only one that you can control and you are the only one who’s actions you are responsible for.

          • winteryblackknight

            Yea you do sound self-righteous

          • Neiman

            To be self righteous, means to think one has a righteousness by their own self efforts and that greater than other men.

            As usual, you are quite wrong. Any righteousness I may have is the righteousness of Christ in me as a born again believer; as to my flesh, the natural man I still bear about in this life, I am a sinner, a chief among sinners, saved only by grace. If there be anything good in me, it is of and by Christ and all else is gratefully under His blood and forgiven.

          • winteryblackknight

            Your first sentence seems to reflect you. You could display some humility. You talk like you are one of the Apostles, no worse. Even Paul spoke with humility

          • Neiman

            To deny any self righteousness on my part, to confess that among sinners I am a chief and only saved by grace, that is a lack of humility? How twisted is your mind?

            I have never claimed to be nor do I talk like I am an apostle, I am only a poor sinner saved by grace. yet, I speak boldly in defense of Christ and His Word and you seem to hate me for that.

          • winteryblackknight

            Not really. You just insist you have all the answers and everyone must accept your interpretion of scripture. You speak as if you have authority but you cannot show that you received such authority from Christ. It takes more than a simple statement to be humble. You can’t even debate. What you believe is from on high.Where scripture come from in the first place?

          • winteryblackknight

            Not really. You just insist you have all the answers and everyone must accept your interpretion of scripture. You speak as if you have authority but you cannot show that you received such authority from Christ. It takes more than a simple statement to be humble. You can’t even debate. What you believe is from on high.Where scripture come from in the first place?

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            Yes, yes you have! You have been running this entire show and not very openly. Intelligent individuals tactfully respond with thoughtful and meaningful and RATIONAL responses. They throw about facts and cite sources. They listen, they show understanding, and above all seek clarification by asking questions. Your words have been arrogant, self-righteous, and not at all well presented or well thought out. I respect your strong faith,
            But strong faith does not entitle you to belittle others and call names. The one who appears to be unintelligent it’s yourself!

          • Michelle Bowen

            OK so I agree that God brings you around and there is a dif between judging and repentance. You can have repentance and as for the judging, the bad situation with this world is that if you tell someone something is immoral according to God. They freak out. I’m not so focused on everyone’s faults…because if I were then I would end up being vain and pointless and wasting time I need to use with God and Me…I need to focus on my relationship with God…and still be a light unto the world…still helping others who are feeling lost on somethigs….thru God all things are possible. So don’t be like “Hey you are all screwing up and I”m so great a Christian that I will let you know you’re screwing up but I nevver do anythign wrong!”

          • Sheldon Walton

            ” I did not even know what it meant. I had no specific desire to repent. I had no clue what that even meant.”- So… “How”, were you ‘Saved”, then? To be saved, one must come to the Knowledge of being Lost and, Seek, to be Saved.

          • ItchyTheClone

            My “testimony” is too personal to put in this public venue. Basically all I knew at the time was that I wanted the peace and understanding and justice that some other people that I barely knew had for me and for each other. That is what spoke to me. Christ spoke to me through them and that is what I am trying to advocate for here. Many people are missing the whole point of salvation which AFAICT is to teach us to love others, saved or not, the way that Jesus loves us. Every thing else is rubbish.

          • ItchyTheClone

            Your words serve only to exclude many who would like to believe. I do not believe that was Christ’s intent.

          • Neiman

            Prove me wrong by scripture.

          • ItchyTheClone

            Do I look like an idiot? I don’t think that I am but then, people who are actually idiots are -never- are aware of the fact.

            Go ahead and thump your bible; do it like a professional. Only, I have more important things to attend than getting in a scripture quoting contest with someone who thinks they know stuff. Been there done that.

            What’s that smell???? Kind of like…. troll….

          • Chalma Patterson

            Discernment comes from the scriptures, Gods Word. How else are we to determine what is true or not? Neiman knocks it out of the park. Emotion alone isn’t the path to the true Word, facts, logic, trust and truth are also needed. Jesus was about love, but he was also about truth and justice.

          • ItchyTheClone

            I have involved myself in scripture quoting contests before. No one ever gets convinced of anything that way.

          • Sheldon Walton

            True, only to a point. If you are able, through the Spirit to reveal, that which is needed to be said, By, scripture, and by doing so, opens the eyes of the blind, then it is needed.

          • ItchyTheClone

            I am making a distinction between having a contest and sharing thoughts as equals. The scriptures are God’s Word. It’s the manual that we use to discover what God wants of us. In my opinion, using it to “win an argument” is disrespectful in the extreme and I will not do it.

          • Michelle Bowen

            Then Itchytheclone you are smelling your own arm pits…trolling is what you are doing. If you say you are a Christian and believe in what God says then using the Bible to prove the points isn’t being a know it all. Your refusal to post scriptures of why judging at all is wrong proves you either do not understand it, are taking someone elses word on the matter, or just don’t care! The truth is we are supposed to practice judgement with love. NOT with hypocracy. So please try to understand this, I really feel like you are not saved not truly. I’m not saying this to be superior…but a true Christian has a RELATIONSHIP with GOD! Not just a “Oh I said my prayer now all is well.”

          • ItchyTheClone

            Salvation is a switch. It is either on or it is off. A person’s walk with Christ is a journey and you are not qualified (no human being is) to decide whether it is good enough or not. People are in all different placed in their walk towards Christ.

            So where does salvation begin? The bible that I read says it is a free gift that you cannot earn and you have only to ask. It begins when you ask. If you are saying that salvation requires that you act a certain way or believe a certain thing, then you have totally missed the point.

            Not only have you missed the point, but you are preventing some people from finding the free gift by putting all kinds of barriers up. God is looking for ways to excuse people not condemn them. That’s why I posted John 3:16.

      • Angela Marie Harvotich

        Catholic was never meant to be a ‘denomination’ amongst many ‘Christianities’. Catholic was a word used to describe the community of believers who followed Jesus Christ and to represent the universality of the church as Catholic means universal. This term was used first by Ignatius of Antioch in 107AD. It only became a ‘denomination’ after others broke off and started their own form of christianity.

        • Neiman

          I do understand that, while the Catholic Church does claim that they are that Universal Church with a direct connection to the Apostolic Church through Peter.

          • Angela Marie Harvotich

            Does it not?

          • Neiman

            Go here for some answers:

            http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

            The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and
            “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing from the
            true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html#ixzz3Iv3X0uyA

            And here:

            http://www.gotquestions.org/Peter-first-pope.html

      • winteryblackknight

        You mean if they accept the cross they will be saved. Why do you ban crucifixes?

        • Neiman

          They are graven images, they are religious objects. The true Christian is grateful for Calvary and the Cross that held Jesus Body, but it is Christ only we worship and honor, not the cross.

          • winteryblackknight

            You mean the image of self sacrifice offends you. It offends Satan too. That’s why he has persuaded you to ban them. To keep everyone in the dard about the message it sends.

          • Neiman

            Again you lie about what I have said and that is a sin against me.

            I have always promoted selfless, self sacrificial love as the only true love and only comes from God, never man.

            We do not worship or engage in honoring graven images, it is a sin. Unlike you, we honor the Person in the Cross and His Sacrifice for the sins of the world, the cross is only a symbol of his death, it is the Person Who died that we worship.

          • winteryblackknight

            You called the image of a crucifix, which is an image of self-sacrifice, a graven image. Therefore the image offends you. Your own words testify to that. People need more than words to absorb a teaching or principle. A picture tells a thousand words. But Satan had muddled your brain. You don’t understand what a graven image is. A graven image doesn’t teach people about the ways of God but leads them into profane things – i.e. an image of a sexual object.

          • Neiman

            I never said nor intimated the cross offends me, that is more of your lies against me. I said we Christians honor and worship the Divine Person Who hung on that Cross and just not the object of the cross, the latter being a symbol of the shame that the world murdered the Lord. Worse, the RCC has Him still on that Cross, denying His resurrection.

            The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the second of the Ten Commandments.
            The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. Functionally, there is no difference between a “graven” image (Deuteronomy 4:16) and a “molten” image (Exodus 34:17). Both are man’s attempt to define and confine the power of God who works over creation. Both are the result of greed and covetousness, along with the fear that God does not have the worshipers’ best interests at
            heart. Graven images, whether an idol, a crystal, or a charm, are attempts to limit the power of God and reduce it to a small package that we can control. As with any kind of worship, the object of adoration inevitably controls us.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/graven-image.html#ixzz3IyMT7FJc

          • winteryblackknight

            The Ark of the Covenant had images made of a cheribim and seraphim and if you read about the building of the temple by Solomon it was adorned with images. You are an iconoclast. Satan doesn’t want people to see pictures because they might inspire people about the things of God. Satan wants people to be blind as to the things of God. The Church denies his resurrection now. That’s a leap. Have you ever read the Apostle’s Creed? You are telling lies now and will be judged for it.
            Christ said “Unless you are willing to take up the cross and follow me you are not worthy of me”. Once saved always saved now? Are you sure about that?

          • Neiman

            You are confusing the Law and the Old Testament with the New Testament and Grace. In the OT the people tried to obey the Law of Moses and it only brought death, we Christians do not serve by works of the Law, we are saved and live by Grace, wherein the moral Laws of God are fulfilled not by the will, but the gift of a new nature in Christ. Love does no harm.

            Once saved, always saved. If there is a genuine conversion and one becomes born again of His Spirit – yes, or are you suggesting Jesus can or will have any part of His Body come into condemnation? Or, will every true believer be safe in His everlasting arms?

          • winteryblackknight

            No one is saved unless they persevere in faith till the end. Faith has to be tested by fire. That’s why Christ told the Apostles Satan will sift you like wheat and Paul said we must put on the armor of God. And Christ said unless you take up the cross and follow Me you are not worthy of me. And I think it was Peter who talked about sin unto death. Your theory on faith, once saved always saved only serves Satan’s purpose giving everyone a false sense of security and causing them to be lazy in sanctifying themselves

          • Neiman

            So no one is saved, not even your Pope, unless they persevere until the end. What a kind of a crap shoot Christianity do you believe in? What a pathetic Savior you believe in, that He died for our sins, but no one is really saved, he cannot keep His children safe, you cannot know until you die if it is Heaven or hell?

            John 10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

            Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

            Philippians 1:6 ” And I am sure of this, that he who began ha good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”

            Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

            Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

            These are all present tense verses, they are clear statements about believers. Yes, true believers, not just professing believers, but those that have been converted and are thereby assured of their salvation.

            Jude 24 declares, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy.” God’s power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security
            is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

            The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29b).Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

            Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are “sealed for the day of redemption.” If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never “eternal” to begin with. If eternal security isnot true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

            The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39,”For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Our
            eternal security is based on God’s love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html#ixzz3IzRJv5af

            Yes, I know the RCC to keep you under the thumbs of these child molesting priests and that falsely called Vicar of Christ does not promise such security, the reject the idea of anyone being born again and that is tragic.

          • winteryblackknight

            Those statements attest to the fact that Satan can’t snatch us against our will. Why did Jesus warn to be ready for I come like a thief in the night, or give us the parable of the seven virgins who did not keep enough oil in their lamps to meet the bridegroom?
            Or why did Paul say I have run the race? What race. Races require perseverance.
            Your once saved always saved tells everyone not be ready, not to prepare, not to persevere, not to sanctify yourself, don’t worry about producing good fruit, don’t worry about the cross and you are leading them all to their damnation.

          • Neiman

            “Those statements attest to the fact that Satan can’t snatch us against our will.”

            Show me where these passages speak of Satan?

            Running the race:
            “In his letter to Timothy, Paul is not
            commending himself for having “run the full distance”; rather, he
            is simply describing what the grace of God had enabled him to do. In the
            book of Acts, Paul says these powerful words: “I consider my life worth
            nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the
            Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s
            grace” (Acts 20:24).

            So, by declaring “I have finished the race,” Paul is telling Timothy
            that he had put every effort into the work of proclaiming to all the
            gospel of salvation
            . He had completed the course set before him; he had
            left nothing undone. He was ready to cross the finish line into heaven.”

            Your interpretation of Eternal Security is just plain wrong and biased by virtue your false Catholic teachings. If these people are truly born again and are children of God, is He an absentee father, is He a defective parent that he will not bring the necessary pressures to bear, knowing our hearts, to bring the perfect discipline to cause us to live a life worthy of His Son? You have accused Jesus of being a poor savior Who didn’t really save us, but kind of saved us, if we are good enough to earn salvation. Now you accuse the father of being an absentee, disinterested, powerless Father unable to bring Divine Correction to the course His children are upon to direct them upon the right path. You kind of hate God don’t you? You seem a practical atheist.

          • winteryblackknight

            One quote says that noone will snatch them out of my hand.
            You are really stretching your logic. I have pointed out many scriptural passages that support the RCC’s teaching that we must cooperate with grace to be saved, and we can still fall after accepting Jesus, we can pay him lip service, we can say we accept him but reject fundamental truths which mean in reality we deny him, that we have to persevere and accept the cross. Mathew 25 alone is sufficient. You ignore the passages or dance around them. I’m not engaging any further. God gave us free will. You imply that by accepting him we give up our will to Him. We have to submit our will to Him but He doesn’t control it. We still retain free will and can commit grievous sin, be tempted, pay lip service, deny truths (Jesus) because we don’t like them, even our faith in Jesus can be self serving. I only need to look at the human experience to know that this is all true and that you are teaching something that is not reality.Jesus taught the path to heaven is narrow. Why do we say in the Our Father “lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”. This is not a one time prayer.
            Salvation is not a crap shoot. But we will be tested and God gives us the grace to persevere. But we still have to pray, serve God in our daily works and not ourselves, receive the sacraments, properly exercise our will. Your teaching is not supported in any way by scripture. These are my final comments.

          • Neiman

            You would not be so confused if you would focus on Jesus as your personal savior, seek the fullness of the Holy Spirit in your life and stop looking to men to help you get into heaven. I fear that you are bound by the chains of a legalistic spirit and you know not the grace of God at all

          • William Allen

            Amen

    • Michelle Bowen

      the Church over in the middle east being burned is NOT by any means a Catholic church it was one of the originals from the time when Jesus’ disiples started going around and creating churches. So I take insult to the whole situation about us not being willing to take torture for God. I will never renounce his name and if they wanted me to convert I would rather DIE! I don’t care what else anyone says. Its that which is most important to remember to stand p for Christ. It is not that I don’t think Catholics can be Christians, but you can’t be worshiping the church and following their path, because you have to worship Mary and all kinds of pagan rituals. You need to research it more. Its about yoru relationship with GOD! The Pope and all those Priests aren’t important not even a little. They are sinners just like you and I! So the point is to realize that Christ is the only one who can save you! Only thru your faith in him, and acceptance can you get saved. It has nothing to do with the church you go to!

    • holly

      That’s because they worship Mary mother of Jesus anxious the Zamora. Not to mention the idolatry in in the church with the states and the image of Jesus is wrong. They have him portrayed as white skinned with long blond hair with blue eyes, but in reality he’s olive to dark skinned with kinky brown hair and with brown eyes! Oh and ghetto holidays and festivals are all have Pagan origins!

    • JustMe

      Michelle – To listen to many Catholics talk, they think their Catholic religion was the first religion ever, and all other religions are a branch of the Catholic Church. WRONG! How can that be, if JESUS was NOT a Catholic. Neither was Mary. Jesus of Nazareth …..BTW… Catholics Never bring up the fact that their religion slaughtered Protestant/Christians. …. So get off your high horse and stop looking down your nose at others.

    • Ginny Barkley Roberts

      There are many evangelicals who are going through the same tortures, and I would hope that Catholic and Protestants alone over there, realize their brotherhood. Yes, Catholics teach that you have to be a Catholic to be saved, but I know many Protestant denominations that assert the same thing. There are several things in the Catholic Church that I am uncomfortable with, as I imagine there are things in Protestant churches that Catholics are uncomfortable with. I think it might be easier for some in the Catholic Church to be an unbeliever, because of the emphasis on baptism and confession instead of personal belief in Christ, but there are unbelievers in every denomination who believe that “going to church and being good” will save them.

    • jmichael39

      Christianity is not locked into Catholicism or any denomination of Protestantism.. It is a relationship with God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. I used to work for a company that did directories for churches. And trust me when I say that I’ve been to literally every denomination and there are only a couple where I can state unequivocally that they had no one there who was filled with the Holy Spirit…and they were both Unitarian. Even in an Episcopal Church I found one or two people who were living for Christ. The idea that any denomination has it all right is ludicrous and the first sign that that denomination does NOT have it all right.

  • jmichael39

    Is this REALLY what concerns us Christians now? Seriously…Kirk needs to repent because of his views on Santa Clause? OMG, time to get off the milk, people.

  • Alyssa

    It seems as though instead of arguing over whether or not a generous Catholic saint should be honored alongside Christ at Christmas, it would be more fruitful to acknowledge the generosity at the heart of St. Nicholas’s mission, and to do the same. So perhaps we should reject the materialism represented by “mall santa” and instead of collecting expensive gifts for our family at Christmas, focus on giving to the poor and the needy – as both St. Nicholas and Christ would have us do.

    • Neiman

      You insist on sharing God’s Throne with a monk who was a sinner, deserving of hell, like all men. Jesus will not share His Throne or place of honor with any man. Jesus is the Divine example of selfless, sacrificial giving, the only true example, not some sinful man.

      • Alyssa

        No, I did not and do not suggest that St. Nicholas shares God’s throne, or that by honoring an instance of human generosity, that means that Santa Claus sits at the right hand of the Father. We regularly honor humans who exhibit the generosity and love of Christ without assuming their equality with Christ. It seems as though St. Nicholas was exhibiting those selfless, sacrificial, Christlike qualities because he loved Christ. If you suggest that it is impossible or unethical to honor or emulate Christ-loving individuals just because they are human, do you suggest that you do not honor or emulate any Biblical character other than Jesus himself? That seems singularly odd to me.

        • Kerry Reed

          Neiman is repeating himself.

          • Neiman

            Your hate is duly noted!

          • Alyssa

            Can I genuinely and non-confrontationally ask why you are so angrily and virulently argumentative about this? It seems to me that the best way to show the love and generosity that you (and I!) are arguing for in this situation is to show love and generosity now, in this message board even, to fellow Christians who think differently than you do.

          • Neiman

            Because Christ is being dishonored by so many of you, as you defend a mere man that has become of greater importance at this time of year than the Lord. If you are a Christian, you should honor only Christ in your heart and if this so-called saint exhibited the gift of giving, he should only be a minor footnote and the Spirit of Christ that stirred that giving the one receiving all the honor and glory, which honor and glory you want to give to a sinful man. So, pardon me for coming the the Lord’s defense against all such idolatry.

            What you decry as not being love, I define as tough love, honest, direct, Christ like love for the lost and for carnal, practical atheist Christians.

          • Alyssa

            So I shouldn’t honor my husband, even though the Bible commands that I do? He’s a “mere man.” I should only honor Christ?

          • Neiman

            More games. You know I was talking about honoring a man as being as important or even more important than Jesus at the celebration of Christ’s birth. There is a difference in honoring this so-called saint as a minor example of the gift of giving, when even if true, all honor would go not to him, but the Spirit of Christ in Him, thus only truly honoring Christ.

            Giving honor to our parents or a spouse, is not honoring them above Christ or in an manner equal to Christ.

          • Alyssa

            I have no illusions that you will consider my point of view, so I am going to go spend my time elsewhere.

            I pray that the Spirit of Love will be with you.

          • Kerry Reed

            Christ has not once been dishonored in any of the discussions. It hasn’t been implied in these discussions or in Kirk Cameron’s movie that St. Nicolas be worshiped. Honoring and following as an example of giving is very different than worship.

          • Neiman

            When at this time of celebration of Christ’s birth, we have elevated this mere, sinful man to a place of greater honor than Jesus Himself, we are dishonoring Christ. When you defend this mortal as worthy of any honor at the celebration of Jesus birth, you dishonor Christ. Yes, as an example of the gift of giving, he may be worthy of minor mention, but even then, if true, that gift is from and through the Spirit of Christ within him and thus Christ still deserves the honor, not a man.

          • Jase1125

            I see the Pharisees are out running amuck. Just because one celebrates Christmas and the giving spirit of Santa Claus in no way elevates Santa above Jesus. At no time have I EVER heard anyone asking for salvation and forgiveness of sins in the name of Santa. Take your self righteous indignation somewhere else where Pharisees gather.

          • Kerry Reed

            Neiman, there is no hate. You just keep going to different posts repeating the same statements.

          • Neiman

            There is hate! But, I do so to counter the same lies being repeated.

          • Kerry Reed

            Peace to you Neiman.

          • Neiman

            I see through you, your pretense at offering me peace is false. I have Jesus Christ within me and in Him I have perfect peace.

          • Sue Duffield

            Neiman’s words: “I” see through you…. “I” have Jesus Christ within me…. “I” have perfect peace.

            Way too many “I’s” as far as I’m concerned. And prophetic “I’s” at that…

            “I see through you..” (??) wow. This concerns me more than anything, when we become so irate in proving the world they are wrong, that we become like little gods..

            I believe it only to be Christ who can see through you. And that gives me perfect peace.

          • Neiman

            When “I” am falsely accused, how can I respond but talking about myself?

            The rest of your angry, false accusations are not worth my time.

          • Sue Duffield

            And again, you prove yourself. Sadly. Plus it must be worth your time, because you responded. “My” time. It’s more about you than you realize. But it’s all thought-provoking, that is for sure. Thank you for taking the time to address each comment.

          • Neiman

            My time, because besides other things I have to do, I have had many, many comments under this thread asking for replies.

      • Kim Deaton

        Who said anything about sharing the throne? I agree that it has gotten out of context, and used as a tactic to make children behave, which I totally disagree with and never did this with my children, but really? I have never heard one person ever compare Santa to being equal to Christ.

        • Neiman

          It is undeniable that this so-called Saint, which is itself unbiblical if it means one elevated to that status by the Pope, as all children of God are called saints; has been elevated to share not just equally, but in much greater degree at this time of year than is Jesus, that is placing him upon Christ’s Throne in YOUR heart. It is one thing at this time of year to briefly mention an historical person that seemed to exhibit the gift of giving, which should be common among all true Christians, it is quite another to give him such prominence, even in many churches and among most so-called professing Christians homes and activities. Further, if and that is a big if as Santa Claus is more legend than fact, but if he did exhibit Christ like giving, the honor goes to the Spirit of Christ in and through him, not to a flesh and blood mortal that was, like all men, a sinner.

          • Jase1125

            You are looney toons. Is this Daffy Duck talking?

      • Brian

        Revelation 3:21- “The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne…”. Clearly, Jesus is given the name that is above all names and at his name every knee shall bow, there is no one like him he is Almighty God in the flesh, the Christ, the Son of God. I am not arguing against that. However, you have been quick to point out the mistakes of others in handling the Word even while you have made mistakes.

        Yes, Jesus is the only “Divine” example but not the “only true example”. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11:1 “Be imitators of ME, as I am of Christ” (also 1 Cor 4:16; Phil 3:17; 4:9 2 Thess 3:7-9). There is nothing wrong with us following the example of other Christians as they exemplify the Christian life, this is a major part of how discipleship works.

        Lastly, winteryblackknight was right to challenge you to read Matthew 25 and explain how one might be saved without works. To be sure, no one is saved BY works, justified BY works, nor declared righteous BY works. The works don’t do the saving, that is by grace through faith. But as a matter of necessity all who are saved by grace through faith will have works.

        • Neiman

          Isaiah 9: “6For
          a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the
          government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called
          Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace”

          There is one Almighty God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit and these three are one God.

          I Corinthians 11: 1 Yes, we are to examine the lives of good of God fearing men and follow their example in following after Christ. “the apostle would have the Corinthians follow him in, as he did Christ: that as he sought, both in private and public, and more especially in his ministerial service, to do all things to the glory of God, and not for his own popular applause, in which he imitated Christ, who sought not his own glory, but the glory of him that sent him;..”

          I Corinthians 4:6 – to follow his example in how he followed Christ: “abide by him in the doctrine of a crucified Christ, he had preached among them, and not the false apostles, who had represented his ministry as weak and foolish; and in his life and conversation, especially in his humble carriage and deportment among them, and in his tender love and affection for them; observing their growing pride, haughtiness, and
          vain opinion of themselves, and those unnatural divisions and
          animosities which were fomented among them; and also in bearing reproach and persecution cheerfully and patiently, for the Gospel of Christ; a detail of which he had given them in some preceding verses.”

          Well, I could go on, but there is nothing wrong in following the example of men of good report that follow Christ, imitating them in their manner of following Christ – Christ being the central object of all faith. I said many times that it was fine to use so-called St. Nickolaus in his gift of giving as an example of that fruit of the Spirit, while: (a) Remembering that it was Christ in Him, whereby not this monk but Christ then gets all the glory. If there is any glory to the man, Christ is robbed of His glory. (b) Mentioning him in this manner, as an example, is quite different than having a holiday to honor him rather than Christ in Him and certainly not to the extent he has taken over Christmas.

          As to your last paragraph, if I found it necessary and did not want to belabor the point, yes if one is genuinely converted, one should see the good works of Christ in love for the brethren in their lives, or as James pointed out, their faith, without these good works, if it exists at all, is a dead faith, benefiting no one. These works are the fruit of salvation, not the means of gaining or maintaining salvation.

          Now again, where was I wrong and unscriptural in these things.

          • Brian

            1. You did not answer the Revelation 3 passage in which Jesus invites us to sit on his throne with him. In connection with this, you have stated many times the problem of glory being given to men, yet Jesus in his prayer in John 17 states that he has given the glory which the Father gave him to those who would believe in Jesus through the word of the apostles.

            2. You said Jesus was the only true example. Paul’s words state otherwise regardless of how many words you type about the context or that he himself was following Jesus. These examples are not limited to apostles/pastors/etc. Paul exhorts Timothy to continue in what he learned from his mother and grandmother.

            3. You presumed to correct winteryblackknight by contradicting the position put forward you implied it to be a false premise. It was not intact false.

            4. Throughout these posts you have asserted yourself to be defending God. He does not need you to defend him…he is God. We are commanded to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is in us –key point– do it with gentleness and respect.

            5. You have been calling people deceivers etc. and presume yourself to be following Christ’s example in chastising the religious leaders. A.) you have no authority to call them deceivers or question their faith with the amount of knowledge you currently have of them. B.) Christ was harsh in his rebuke of the religious leaders. This is not a pastor’s forum. Most of these folks are lay Christians and even if their theology is imperfect (none of us has perfect theology this side of heaven) they do not deserve such harsh treatment or to be called deceivers. C.) Your harshness does not follow Paul’s exhortation to Timothy “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. (2 Tim 2:24-25). We are to be kind and correct gently.

  • Alyssa

    It seems as though instead of arguing over whether or not a generous Catholic saint should be honored alongside Christ at Christmas, it would be more fruitful to acknowledge the generosity at the heart of St. Nicholas’s mission, and to do the same. So perhaps we should reject the materialism represented by “mall santa” and instead of collecting expensive gifts for our family at Christmas, focus on giving to the poor and the needy – as both St. Nicholas and Christ would have us do.

  • Kim Deaton

    NO one knows exactly what day it was that Christ was born. So to designate a day to honor the birth of Christ doesn’t seem blasphemous to me at all. Sure the Roman Catholics chose to celebrate this holiday close to the winter solstice and what the pagans call Yule. Sure they did this to convert pagans to Christianity. Just like Easter, Halloween, and a million other holidays Christians see as their own originals. I celebrate Christmas, but never raised my kids on Santa. It was simply a day to celebrate the arrival of Jesus, our Savior. We exchange very modest gifts, and have a meal in His honor. There’s not one thing wrong with that. Yule is Dec. 21st. Not Dec. 25th. Kwanza, and Hanukkah are also celebrated in Dec. I don’t hear anyone squawking about how we shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because of those holidays. It’s where your own heart is while you celebrate anything that counts

    • Neiman

      Exactly right!

  • Terry Wheeler

    Good grief! Are we this devoid of understanding? Nicholas was bishop of Myra (Turkey), but was not under Rome, did not consider himself under the Roman bishop, and would not historically be connected to Rome (it would be Byzantium). Roman Catholicism would not be fully developed until about 300 years later.

    • Neiman

      Thanks for that clarification of the facts.

    • winteryblackknight

      He did indeed accept the authority of the Bishop of Rome

    • William Allen

      Roman Catholicism was there from the beginning. However their bishops were fed to lions and hung on stakes around Rome and lit on fire to use as touches. They tried to eradicate them but only led to more converts. It wasn’t until Constantine that the persecution stopped and Catholics where allowed to practice their faith free from persecution. Yes then it flourished.

  • Jesse Larsen

    Here is a video review of his upcoming movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9mPKOJjVx0

  • mbabbitt

    One of those debates that make Christians look like petty fools. I became a Christian 4 years ago and it is silly and petty issues that is a stumbling block for others coming to Christ. Get off it. Let it go. So many more important things in the Christian life to focus on.

  • lowerright

    I am NOT Catholic, but I agree with Cameron wholeheartedly about Santa, and I also agree that Christians should celebrate Halloween.

  • Michael Massey

    If we Christians spent as much time winning people to Christ instead of bashing each other , Christianity would not be considered so hypocritical. I am a fundamental Baptist , and to bash and attack Kirk Cameron over Santa Claus is ludicrous . It is getting to the point to where the Church is killing itself over gnats, all over man made religion instead of Christ . Just sad

    • Neiman

      Correcting error, reproving people caught in error is out of love and for their good, it is NOT bashing anyone. The Church is not killing itself at all, or are you accusing Jesus of failing His Church, of having a flawed Church, which is His Body? The true Church is the Body of Christ, the many individual members thereof that make up His Church, He is its head and He cannot fail His Church, His Church in His hands cannot fail.

      • Andy Hudgins

        Neiman, you make me sad. It seems to me you have no joy in your life. I have read your many comments and you have nothing nice to say. I wish you would just step back and look at what you have written. If someone who wasn’t a Christian read your comments, what would they think? Have you forgotten the Christmas spirit? Joy, peace, love for each other? No one here has put “Santa” above Jesus. I hope you look at the trailer of the movie to see what is actually being said and done. “to bring conversation and share the real meaning of Christmas”

        • Neiman

          That is very judgmental of you – playing God today?

          It is always hard to bring correction to such grievous error as evidenced in this story and by the many commenting and still be seen as loving. I assure you that Herod and Herodias did not think John the Baptist loving where he accused them of adultery nor was Jesus when he called religious minded folk snakes, or drove people out of the temple with a whip of cords, or Paul when folk stoned and beat him with whips. Confronting sin and reproving Christians when they fail to make Christ the center of their lives, is a thankless task, a cause for many attacks and much hatred. I am encouraged that Jesus said as the world hates him, they would hate His children. If any do not hate you ever for your defense of the Gospel and opposition to sin, are you truly one of His disciples?

          When any Christian defends Santa Clause or even St. Nickolaus, as he takes the central role in the Christmas season, whether they want to admit it or not, they are placing him above Christ and placing him on Jesus Throne, if not consciously, in fact. If you can read the words of people defending this Santa worship or watch movies or read stories and see Santa as the central Character at this season and not feel righteous anger, you should question whether or not He is the Lord of your life, the sole object of your life, if you really love Him above all things.

          You call love, peace and joy as being above all things, when it is Jesus that is the only true source of these emotions, the only true object of the Christian heart.

          I also encourage you, when you get off God’s Throne for a moment, to read my first comment, the first comment under this thread for a true perspective.

      • Michael Massey

        Christ does not fail, yet we do . Peter , the Rock, failed. The idea that the Church cannot make mistakes or hurt Itself is saying God is wrong . God , in His wisdom, gives us freedom of choice, otherwise how did Adam fall , he who knew not sin UNTIL he fell ??
        The Church is Body, the Body is Jesus , not these denominations. IF you were correct, there would be just one “denomination”, not all of these. You , even out of love , while making good points, can’t lump ALL Catholics into one pile. Every time we attack each other , we attack the Body , and we attack Jesus . If a Catholic believes in Jesus Christ as his Savior, repents his sins, accepts Jesus as his Savior and is water baptized, yet follows some of the doctrine of his denomination , he is damned ?? That doesn’t follow John 3:16-18 nor 14:6 , does it ? I KNOW Jesus is my intercessor , my point is Jesus says to believe in HIM for salvation . The Catholics do the same to Protestants and they are wrong . How are we right and they wrong?

        • Neiman

          How many times must I say that same thing and get it through to you? “The Church is Body, the Body is Jesus , not these denominations”

          Yet, you fail because you bring it back to this world, the Church is His Body and it is a gross error to think He cannot govern His Body and that it is anything but perfect at all times; yet, while in this world the members thereof, caught up in the flesh will fail, but that is the flesh – it is not the Body of Christ, which is spiritual.

          I never lumped all Catholics in one pile, many times herein I have differentiated between those having come to Christ by God’s Grace, by faith and those that think they are saved by the RCC.

          You have made many false accusations regarding what I have said or believe so I am done with you.

          • Michael Massey

            Do not forget to wipe the dust off your feet as well , ok ?? In your lust to defend your honor, you miss the entire point, every time you disparage someone who is a Christian that worships different from you , you are killing the Body. You make huge assumptions , over and over and over again, that there is one way to Jesus Christ, which is NOT Biblical. Jesus teaches there is one way to the Father, but there many ways to come to the Son and salvation. I thank you for being done with me, for you show little of what you preach. You do show , however, a great deal of Pharisee like tendencies . That is something I do not need

  • Shaina

    How can we support a ‘holiday’ declaring it as a day to remember Christ when there is nothing Christ like in it. Stop and consider what X-mas ( because to refer to as anything else is false because there is no Christ in it really is about…. Kids and parent awake up in the early hours of the morning to pretty much bow or sit under a pine tree to see what this figurative firgure that is known as Santa Claus brought them. They tear through thousands of presents glancing at each one for a split second and then throwing it in a pile never giving it a second thought because they are too concerned in breaking into the next. After all is said and done they glance around the room and enviously stare at what a sibling got or what they did not get. People do not ask each other how they exalt the Lord on ‘his day’; they only ask what one received for X-mas. Do they care what the other got? Not really. They just want to proudly boast about what they received and complain about what they did not. Please do not fool yourself into thinking this day is about the Lord because it isn’t. Its about an individual’s desires and wants. Just because you may read a short excerpt from the Bible for 5 minutes, repeat a prayer around your meal, and/or attend a church service, does not make it anymore of a Holy Day as any other of the pagan holidays many so called Christians proclaim to support. If you want to pass around gifts and have joy with your family, be !y guest. But please do not exclaim that Christ is still in Christmas when he was never really there to begin with. I could go into the theological side of the matter but many of you probably will probably already be offended by what I have wrote, so… Have a great night and consider what I wrote. Just because this is the way it has been doesn’t mean you can’t change it.

  • Evelyn Bysiek

    Wow, the ignorance of Mike Gendron has reaffirmed my decision tenfold to convert from an evangelical Protestant to a Roman Catholic at the age of 24, six years ago. This absolute ignorance of true Christianity (which any educated Christian knows encompasses both Protestants and Catholics) makes me truly embarrassed for Gendron and those like him. Christ’s message in the Bible clearly states that an ecumenical, united approach in which we respect and unite as one is what Jesus wants and expects of us. Gendron needs to study what Catholicism truly teaches because it is a beautiful, wise, and rich faith.

    Also, I know Kirk Cameron and his family personally, and they are wonderful, kind, generous followers of Christ. So instead of Gendron and others like him wasting time debating whether or not Kirk Cameron is right or wrong regarding Halloween and Santa Claus, let’s all try to focus this time and energy on how we can learn more about our Protestant/Catholic brethren and make the world a better place.

    • Neiman

      ” Christ’s message in the Bible clearly states that an ecumenical, united
      approach in which we respect and unite as one is what Jesus wants and
      expects of us.”

      That is anti-Christ! It is not in the Bible!

      “let’s all try to focus this time and energy on how we can learn more
      about our Protestant/Catholic brethren and make the world a better
      place”

      God has already condemned this world and never said that by compromise and/or ecumenical works we were to make it a better place. True Christians are citizens of heaven, not of this world. There is no such thing as Protestant/catholic brethren, the only brethren are all those souls, despite organized religion, which is the enemy of the Church, that have been converted to Christ from idols and are part of the Body of Christ, the only true Church.

      I have commended Kirk for his faith in Christ, but it does not mean he cannot ever be guilty of error or is never in need of reproof.

      • Evelyn Bysiek

        John 17:21 – “That all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

        Psalm 133:1 – “How good and pleasant it is when God’s people live together in unity!”

        Ephesians 4:3 – “Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.”

        Ephesians 4:13 – “Until we all reach unity in the faith and knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

        I know that you think you’re doing God’s will, but He wants his followers to be united, not arguing over silly things. I will pray for you. Have a good evening.

        • Neiman

          You are a deceiver! Those passages talk about members of the Body of Christ, the only true brethren, to live in peace and unity with one another and certainly to the degree we can, we should try to live at peace with the world; but it has NOTHING to do with ecumenicism, of bringing adherents to every man made religion into unity, which is to compromise the Truth. You have not His Spirit on this matter.

          Further, in love, we are called to bring reproof/correction against any brother caught in error for his own good and even in extreme cases, disfellowship any brother that will not listen to the elders.

          • Evelyn Bysiek

            Neiman, I think it’s time you exited this platform and went to pray for true guidance from God. I will continue to pray for you. Peace be with you.

          • Neiman

            Evelyn, I think it’s time you exited this platform and went to pray for true guidance from God. I will continue to pray for you. Peace be with you. May you find Jesus as your Savior.

          • Shaina

            I appreciate your stand for the truth!

          • Paul McNamara

            Neiman, you have stated that you are neither Catholic nor Protestant and that you are against organized religion. Of whom, then, are these elders of which you speak? And where do these elders get their authority?

          • Neiman

            As did the apostles, those called into positions of leadership in the church, receive their authority directly from the Lord. They should not be in those positions at all unless they meet the criteria set forth by the Holy Spirit in the epistles written by Paul, unless they are men full of the Holy Spirit and unless by virtue of fasting and prayer, the Holy Spirit sets them apart as local shepherds of the flock.

            Jesus is everything to his church, which is His glorious body, he rules alone through his Holy Spirit, It is He that raises up, calls and anoints men into positions of leadership in local assemblies of Christian believers. It is the responsibility of the believers in those assemblies, to earnestly seek the guidance of God in whom should be placed in positions of trust, it should not be by meeting academic credentials and being approved by remote boards. These leaders must then be the subjects of daily prayer.

            Two last points: (a) I am not against believers gathering together for corporate worship and mutual encouragement and that often requires some sense of organization, as God is not the author of confusion. It is much different when we set up larger religious organizations, as the leadetrs are too far removed from the average congregant and sadly often live lives in a material sense, far above them. They need to be close to and responsible to a local assembly of believers. (b) I don’t know why you find it strange that I would consider myself a member of the body of Christ and thus only a member of his church and not part or subject to a man-made religious organization.

          • Paul McNamara

            Jesus does not “raise up” leaders from the ground. In Acts 1, we see the Apostles drawing straws to replace Judas with Matthias and in Acts 6 Stephen and others are elected by the Apostles to carry out various missions. Clearly, authority was given to the Apostles to do this, and they past on this authority. The line has been unbroken for 2000 years.

            You may not call the early Church Catholic, but this is how the Holy Spirit raises up leaders in the Church from the beginning.

            As for your claim that leaders must only oversee small communities to be effective, the history of salvation through the ages is one of God making covenants with a larger bodies of people. First their was Adam, then Eve, a couple; followed by Noah and his sons, a family; followed by Abraham and his tribe; followed by Moses and a nation; followed by David and a kingdom; followed by Jesus and his universal (Catholic) Church.

          • Neiman

            As this subject is not essential to the person of Christ and and salvation, I refuse to spend much time debating the issue.S do not be shocked if I do not reply further, as it is a vain disputation to carry it on.

            As to Matthias and Apostolic succession, this man was chosen by the Holy Spirit through the casting of lots. It was done solely to fill the one empty seat of the 12 apostles, due to Judas betraying Christ and dying; and, please note that in the description of heaven in several places in the book of Revelation, there are thrones for the 12 patriarchs and only 12 apostles. Further, the Holy Spirit gives us the qualifications for anyone sitting as an apostle, Acts 1:21 “Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us.” No one may sit as an apostle unless they had been direct eyewitnesses of the earthly ministry of Christ from his baptism until shortly after his resurrection. That alone should end any discussion of apostolic succession.

            Stephen was not an apostle, he was not chosen by the apostles to be a Deacon, it was the people, with specific instructions regarding qualifications by the apostles, who chose these deacons and then and only then were they anointed by the apostles. In the early church, again by the Holy Spirit through Paul, certain conditions/qualifications were set forth for bishops/leaders and while they were assisted by various companions of Christ, who were men fall of the Holy Spirit, again it was the people through prayer who recognized them.

            There was a universal Christian church, in the sense that they were all Christian groups, but it had nothing to do with the much, much later Roman Catholic Church, wherein a few bishops tried to seize control over all of the local assemblies as a power base and for their own personal enrichment. So any attempts to connect the Roman Catholic Church with the Apostolic Church cannot be supported either by Scripture nor historical facts and neither can the nonsense of Apostolic succession.

  • Donna

    When people say, ‘Merry Christmas,’ they probably don’t know the meaning behind the greeting. They are mixing the holy name of Christ with a pagan holiday and a blasphemous representation of Christ on an altar.” You mean what USE to be a pagan holiday. I know in my heart what, “Merry Christmas” means, and so does Kirk Cameron. I follow Jesus and celebrate His Birth. Following the example of the three wise men, an example of what St Nicholas did, my family and I celebrate by putting Christ in Christmas, by spreading the Good News, to all who will listen. Merry Christmas everyone!

  • Christopher Salazar

    This article discusses me. Would Jesus even be allowed to sit with some men, he was Jewish remember.

  • cyrene

    Oh Kirk. Dont fall out of faith. Please get back to bible 101.

  • Jill Sharpe Pena

    Christmas is not in the Bible! Period! Neither is praying to Mother Mary. I stick to the undefiled word of God when it comes to my faith. Cameron is way off base.

  • Brandy Sunnenberg

    Oh for crying out loud… while we all sit back and argue over Christmas stuff… every year that we have left to celebrate the birth of Christ in the open slips past us. Wake up people. Something far worse than sharia law is PROMISED in the Bible to come our way. Teach your children about Jesus now, while you still have a hand in what they learn. Use this season to express what Emmanuel means for our lives. What you teach them now, May be the only Bible they will get to see in the end times regime…. especially those of you who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture… Do you want to leave your kids behind with the memory of arguing over Christmas or the understanding of what it should be about?

  • ItchyTheClone

    We celebrate both Christ’s birth (every day and especially around Christmas) and the winter solstice. We are not being disobedient to God’s commandments by celebrating a holiday that does not directly apply to Christianity. We are not worshiping other gods or denying any part of God’s teaching. Anyone who says that we are “actually” celebrating something else is just making up stories. God sees into our hearts and I have neither the means nor the desire to hide it from Him.

    Whether Santa Claus (or St. Claus, or St. Klause) was a good guy, a bad guy, or a fiction (I think) is irrelevant. Celebrating with a big party when the harvest work is done (AKA Thanksgiving) and when the winter begins to turn to spring (AKA Christmas) is a perfectly natural and good thing to do. I think that God wants us to be joyful and not somber. For my family and I, we will take great joy in the amazing gift that the Creator Of The Universe has bestowed upon us personally and every day we do our best to focus on living the way that He wants us to.

    • Shaina

      How does this ‘holiday’ not directly apply to Christianity if in fact, it is ‘to remember Christ’s birth’? And I mean not to offend but just to point out, have you read Jeremiah 10:2-6? Plus the Bible clearly states to remember His death till he come, never mentions his birth, or mother, or any ‘Saint’ which in and of its self is idoltary because one is putting him on a pedestal like a god…. Just food for thought.

      • ItchyTheClone

        My point is that I (and my family) separate celebrating Christ’s birth and giving gifts. There is no conflict of interests that way. Since there is no conflict of interests, it does not matter who Sana Claus is. We basically leave him out altogether, but I do not think it matters.

  • jb22

    Love the fact that evangelicals think Catholics are the wrong brand of delusion. Hilarious.

    • Neiman

      That is a lie! There is a difference between Catholic Christians and opposition to the RCC.

  • Gina Hull Andrade

    I am a Christian!!!! I celebrate New Years day, Valentines Day, St. Patrick’s Day, April Fools Day, Easter, 4th of July, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year’s Eve. I celebrate all these Holidays the same way I celebrate all days AS A CHRISTIAN! Everyday is the Lord’s Day if you have him in your heart. I’ve taught my children to have fun with the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus but they also know the Biblical reasons we celebrate and what is more important. Whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, or a Jew should not matter to anyone but you and God and shame on those who would condemn Kirk Cameron for Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior AND believing that Santa is an ok guy. There are so much more important things we should concern ourselves with.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      You have a point, but Santa is a DEAD guy 🙂 Being the DA here, but should Christians be celebrating a holiday around a dead man? Or the living God? Easter Bunny? Sex and fertility.
      Easter, Ishtar, Asherah, Ashteroth, = maypole = stripper pole = …

      • Gina Hull Andrade

        ST. Nick being dead has really no baring on Santa Claus, it’s all fantasy something for children to dream about once a year. I don’t worship Santa.I worship God, The Living God!! But letting my child believe for a short time about Santa is exciting for children but if you teach your children about Jesus being the Savior and how he was born is the most important and if you do that as a Christian parent I hardly think God is going to punish you because you have a little fun with your children around Christmas time and believing that Santa and his reindeer take children all over the world a present makes them excited and youthful. Children grow up so fast these days, dealing everyday with adult issues, I think they deserve to be children and deserve to dream, if only for a little while!!!!

  • Kelly Ann McDonnell Justus

    I was raised Catholic and I believed in Santa Claus. I taught my children that Santa Claus is a story we tell during Christmas. Christ is the reason for the Season and His story is true. a Christian is someone who realizes that they are lost and deserve hell and accept Christ as the only way to heaven. I cringe when I see Santa Claus worshiping at the manger. One is real and one is not.

  • Iris Hebert

    I know Catholics that are true Christians, and I know some protestants, that are not. If you believe that Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, came to this earth to save man kind, died onthe cross for our sins and was raised on the third day, and now sits at the right hand of God and you confess that you are a sinner, repent of your sins, and ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and mean it with all your heart, the Holy Spirit will abide in you, you are saved. Religion had nothing to do with it.

  • Angel Dingee Hilterbrand

    Wow!!! Do we really need to be spending time bashing a childhood character? It would be different if said character was being blasphemous towards MY LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. However, that character isn’t. Maybe, Neiman, you should focus on “judge not lest ye be judged” or “let he among you without sin cast the first stone”. You seem to be doing an awful lot of both, judging and rock throwing.

    • Neiman

      A. You are funny, accusing me of judging and throwing stones, by the way taking them totally out of context, while you are doing the same thing.

      B. I did not bash anyone, I objected to many here placing him of Christ’s throne.

  • Theresa Kipper Hall

    If you research the history of Christmas and for that matter, Easter, you will find that the traditions can be traced all the way back to the time of Nimrod and his wife Semiramis and their son, Tammuz, who were all very evil and idolatrous. I have celebrated Christmas and Easter all of my life but the more I find out their origins the more I wonder if we as Christians should be celebrating them. I wonder if God really approves of merging pagan worship with anything to do with his Son, Jesus.

  • Amy Dawn Ackerman

    Catholicism is one of the original Christian denominations. Are there Catholics who aren’t good examples of Christianity because of how they behave? Yes, but that is true in any denomination. To call all Catholics unChristian is, well, unChristian.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      By original you mean 200-400 years removed from the last apostle? k

  • Ruth

    The RCC has transformed a lot since 325 AD, and if it’s true what Kirk Cameron says–that the man known as St. Nicholas was involved in the Council of Nicaea, which produced the Nicene Creed– then we can assume that what they believed then was Biblical and sound. It’s sad that his generosity is overlooked because he is Catholic. Perhaps we should be challenged by his generosity rather than making generalised comments about the entirity of the RCC. The problem is that the name Santa Claus no longer represents this man. Santa Claus has become a pop icon for this generation that represents consumerism and mythology (Santa does not live at the North Pole and build toys all year round)– hence why you find him hanging out at the mall. If we taught our children about the real St. Nicholas–that he was just an ordinary man, motivated by the love of Christ to be generous– then it wouldn’t be so bad. There are so many things that we do in our daily lives that are not glorifying to God. Regardless of it’s pagan beginnings, Christmas is a time when we actively seek to remember our Immanuel, and a time when open worship of him is more socially acceptable (and a great door to conversations and witness), that I think it’s actually unhelpful and counterproductive to argue whether it’s “the Christian thing to do”. As Paul pointed out, we don’t need to worry about the food we eat, or whether we are circumsised or uncircumsised– we areade free in Christ to serve him. Make the most of Christmas, to honour Jesus, to celebrate the freedom we have in him, and to share the Good News with the world.

  • Paul Norman Hanover

    Calm down everybody. Including the author. First of all, many people in ALL denominations are those that claim belief in God, but are not saved. So, are Catholics Christians? Some of them, just like all the other denominations. This should clearly be stated in any lambasting of an entire denomination, unless the purpose is to be divisive. On the other hand, yes many Catholic practices are unbiblical, including belief in purgartory, child limbo, supernatural power in artifacts and reliquaries, veneration of humans, such as saints and Mary, claiming Mary was a virgin until death, praying to Mary, putting crucifixes in churches(which breaks one of the ten commandments of graven images), insistence on works being needed for salvation, confession to a priest instead of directly to Jesus who is clearly said in Scripture to be our mediator and not Father O’Flannigan, and the forbidding of clergy to marry when the Bible clearly says never to forbid people to marry, and more older things like indulgences. All that being said, having false doctrine, or added doctrine makes a person incorrect, not lost and damned and going to hell. I don’t care if Mother Theresa was a Catholic, if she isn’t going to Heaven, then none of us are. She was the most worshipful, self-sacrificing Christian we’ve probably heard of. Heck, she even almost got rejected for sainthood for arguing with the Catholic church on issues. And Saint Nicolas cared so much about his faith that he slapped another bishop for heresy. Arius who questioned the trinity enraged Bishop Nicolas and Nicolas smote him in the face. “As Arius vigorously continued, Nicholas became more and more agitated. Finally, he could no longer bear what he believed was essential being attacked. The outraged Nicholas got up, crossed the room, and slapped Arius across the face! The bishops were shocked.” http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/bishop-nicholas-loses-his-cool/ He was stripped of his bishophood and put in jail. Constantine decided after the council to reinstate his bishophood. I’m not saying he should of done that. It’s not very peaceful. But I’m pretty sure that anyone that cares that much about the trinity and whether Jesus is God, is surely a follower of Christ. Even Peter cut off a Roman soldier’s ear to try and stop them from arresting Jesus. Pretty good connection there if you ask me. Also, there’s this comment which I loved by Michelle: Have you seen what is happening to the orthodox church in the middle east? The orthodox church is almost identical to the Catholic church. These people are literally being tortured, enslaved, and brutally executed for their faith in Jesus Christ. They REFUSE to back down and REFUSE to deny Christ. I would love to see an evangelical go through a tenth of what these poor people are going through and they are Catholic! Also, what the author gleefully dismisses in saying that we shouldn’t go along with Catholic practices is that the people aren’t celebrating the sainting of Nicholas. They are celebrating the good things he was remembered for, selfless things, godly things, Christlike things. Just like we celebrate Mother Theresa’s contributions in almost all Protestant denominations. And another thought is that there was never an issue here anyways until we made the two days into one day. What two days you might ask? Christmas and Saint Nicolas day. (You can find all this on wikipedia)”The tradition of Saint Nicholas’ Day, on 6 December (19 December in most Orthodox countries), is a festival for children in many countries in Europe related to surviving legends of Saint Nicholas, and particularly his reputation as a bringer of gifts.” “The custom of gifting of children at Christmas has been propagated by Martin Luther as an alternative to the previous very popular gift custom on St. Nicholas, to focus the interest of the children to Christ instead of the veneration of saints” At some point the two days merged, and that caused a whole lot of religious chaos, and arguments, and keep Christ in Christmas, and whatnot. The truth is the problem is not how we treat Christmas, but how we treat Christ. We are not so good at following God’s Word and as we see a lot of people fall away from Christ, we see a moral decay falling all around us. But let’s be real, celebrating a Catholic guy’s good deeds does not mean we’re venerating him, any more than if we had a Mother Theresa day, which I think we should. Have a day to go out and give to the less fortunate, not that we shouldn’t all the time, but it would help remind those that don’t all the time. At any rate, let’s separate truth from fiction, if you have a problem with Christmas, it’s because of pagan elements and I don’t anybody worshipping Saturn or Ishtar, the reason for the date of Easter, do you? Didn’t think so. Did you hear about that new Ishtar temple down the street? Me neither. People will celebrate that day however they want, even if it’s a secular Seinfeldian “Festivus for the rest of us”. No one cares what the day used to celebrate. They care what they intend it for. And if choose to put a Nativity in my yard to celebrate Christ, it surely isn’t any worse than celebrating Christ on any other day.

  • http://www.ChrysalisHollywood.com Christian M Christian

    Really? Saints are being beheaded in next door Iraq (Saint Nick was from Turkey) and this article decides to focus on Santa Claus? Were Jesus here today, do you really think he’d denounce a way to bring light into a dark month, a way to gather family and exchange gifts, a way to celebrate his birth (whenever it was) a way to embrace childlike things like wonder and fantasy, a way to remember our history, a way to boost the economy and create more jobs-even if just seasonal….uhh, no.

  • Catholic Man

    ‘Fundamentalist Christians’ deserve our sympathy and compassion just as any others that suffer from mental illness. These people do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      That perspective reminds me of the Hindenberg

      “Oh the humanity!”

  • ss

    This is so funny. All Christians in the beginning were Roman Catholic since that was the first church. So Christians shouldn’t identify or read St. Thomas Aquinas or other theologians? Evangelicals don’t agree with the Nicene creed b/c shocker – it was Roman Catholics putting it together? This is so silly and makes the author look ignorant. Someone is trying to find contention. Jesus’ birthday celebration is the biggest holiday in the world. What’s wrong with that? Nothing. And you know why Santa give’s gifts? To celebrate Christ’s birthday. Seems like a pretty good guy to me.

    Remember this? “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” – Nothing in there about whether or not you celebrate Christmas and think Santa is a good guy.

  • siege44

    Even IF you could say Roman Catholics aren’t Christians as a blanket statement – which you can’t based on the every day experiences of evangelicals like myself who are close acquaintances with Catholics who believe their only hope for salvation is in the righteous life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, aka the Gospel – if Nicholas was alive in 328 A.D that was well before the hedonistic and worldly popes corrupted the church with wacko doctrines.
    This is the kind of hypocritical, self-righteous garbage that makes people despise Christians, and we aren’t supposed to be despised for making mountains out of molehills, we’re supposed to be despised for sharing the gospel and loving people too much.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      The apostles were despised for following God, not man. It was not an ecumenical love feast.

      • siege44

        Bummer, an ecumenical love fest is exactly what I was calling for. /sarc

  • http://www.tolo-thailand.com Roger Walker

    Kirk is right. I have been a Christian 43 years (saved by grace through faith) and have spent my last 27 years with my family on the mission fields in various parts of the world. I do Santa Claus every year so kids here in Buriram can have their photo taken with Santa. I sing Christmas carols and visit schools, sports events, public gatherings and concerts. ( more than 600 schools so far) and get lots of chances to share the gospel. I always tell the crowds I am doing this because Jesus is the real reason for Christmas. Will start Santa Claus in a big department store on the 28th of November. Funds raised go to support Tree of Life Orphanage Foundation a Christian orphanage which we started 17 years ago. During our time here we have distributed 300,000 copies of the New Testament in Thai and have witnessed 53 new churches established in this province in the past 13 years.

  • Amy Tikal Thesing

    If Jesus was as “evangelist christains” claim him to be, there would probably be no such thing as a christians due to lack a lack of participation. I refuse to believe any religion pagan or otherwise is bad. when we open our minds to other possible forms of spirituality, only then will we be living as jesus did. My understanding is at itis about The life of Jesus,not about how other cultures relate to or worship. Be a catholic, an evangelist, a muslim, a hindu, a spiritual not religious, an atheist, and i can guesstimate that Jesus would love you regardless, disregard any label other that human being, and there is where peace resides.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      Please read John 3

      • Amy Tikal Thesing

        What exactly do you hear in my words? I did read it, what is your point? That I should be born again? I do not see the passages as literally as some do. I’m a metaphor girl!

        • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

          That was exactly my point. Whatis the point of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross if other religions are as good as God’s? Jesus was very straightforward, literal when the interpretation required it, and spiritual when the text required it, sometimes both. As for open-mindedness, there’s a Roman Catholic down there somewhere who has a very open mind but believes we literally eat Jesus in the Eucharist. Can you open your mind to that? Something tells me yes.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I think I can see why he or she thinks they are literally eating Jesus, because that is what the individual appears to his or herself to be doing, there is a lack of communication which in turn send the message do as I say, obedience, the very scary portion of this idea is that a.)the person responsible for this person’s understanding does not understand and / or b.) Which is worse: Instructing the individual to just do as he or she is told to do. Jesus came here (or so he says in the bible passages) to challenge the rules as God’s son because, God recognized their focus on the “laws/rules ” had become more important to them than God itself. Jesus says of the commandments, the only two are to put God first and love your neighbor as yourself. I am not Catholic, but I do go to a Catholic college (Franciscan) and I love it! One thing I have taken away from my religious classes there is that they don’t want you to just believe, they want you to doubt learn, seek, and find the truth, even if it is not their truth, keep seeking! This is the kind of attitude we should all have, acceptance and tolerance (I disagree with some things they about sex) but I will say that I see Catholics very differently than I did before. “Let it be” live and let live, worship in the way that suits you best and allow others to do the same!

          • Paul McNamara

            Amy, the Catholic Church has beautiful, succinct teachings on human sexuality. Please continue your quest for the truth and, in particular, in this area. The God who made you has a plan for your mind, heart, soul– and your body.

          • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

            I see a grave misunderstanding of what Jesus said. You said, “Jesus came here (or so he says in the bible passages) to challenge the rules as God’s son…”

            The Bible’s response: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.” Matthew 5

            The problem with seeking “wisdom” in other religions is that the OT prophets and the New testament apostles called those gods Shiddim, and Daemonoi — demons. If you can believe that God is all powerful, then you can believe that he wrote the book through these men. God calls them demons, in other words. Jesus did not come to bring a new way, or break His own law, but to fulfill that Law and the old covenant through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

            The rules he challenged and broke were simply traditions of men, extrapolations of the law beyond the levitical calling. “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” Mark 7:8

            Th doctrine of the Eucharist and transubstantiation is practiced in the Fransiscan tradition, to the best of my knowledge. I think you might disagree with that, too.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            What exactly is your knowledge and how have you come to know all these wonderful things? What is your main source of knowledge? There is NO problem with seeking out what other religions teach. As a nurse I am expected to serve people from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures. Seeking out what they know and being able to serve them in a way that is comforting to him or her makes me proud, to know something about where he or she comes from, what is important to him or her, and what he or she is able to eat and drink, for example Kosher Jewish individuals must separate their dairy and meat. A person can learn so much from people of other religious backgrounds, and when we learn we can understand! I am a genuine person and what knowledge I have is REALLY mine I have learned it, not just cut and paste it from a prepared list 🙂

          • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

            The Bible.

            As a nurse do you know why Kosher Jews separate their foods?
            Hint: It is spiritual.

            I’m cutting and pasting from…

            memory.

          • Amy Tikal Thesing

            I see the light, you will just keep answering my questions with more questions, yes I know why it says in the Torah three times not to boil a kid in milk….I did have to look it up! I am concluding my time here with this: Until there can be respectful discourse between any groups, by listening because we desire to learn, there will be no progress. There is not one right way to be a Christian! There are many ways to do a great many things. I choose to understand that most of you are embedded in a religious culture that is more about itself than about God, and that is alright. I will say a prayer for those of you who are caught up in these untruths and seemingly deliberate misinterpretations. Just because a person says they are saved by grace alone does not mean anything if they don’t act accordingly. What I see are a group of people who think their way is the ONLY way. I see people who have not the ability to cope with ideas that don’t fit into their paradigm. Jesus was called teacher many times in the NT and to me that indicates that he valued learning. Discussion about things opens us up to new ways of thinking and seeing more than we ever could before! To take the bible literally without considering the events surrounding its conception and to whom it is written is irresponsible. I don’t believe you follow all the laws in the bible if that was the case you would be Jewish, because Jesus didn’t come here to abolish the Laws…right? The funny part is that I am no so sure Jesus would appreciate they way you attempt to control who is Christian and who is not…You people are as the Pharisees were making up your own laws around the laws that are there and claiming that some are valid and some are not. You can’t have your cake and eat it too, being a Christian requires having an open mind and allowing other Christians to worship how they please…not sure where the verse I located in the bible but Jesus says to one of the disciples about another casting out demons in his name…”Leave him, if he is not against us, he is for us.” There is a lot said in that short sentence!

  • Leeann

    Wow this article makes me sad 🙁
    First of all we as “Christians” all have the same Father and the same Jesus Christ and yes Holy Spirit! We have a different first name and the same last name… Baptist Christian, Pentecostal Christian, Catholic Christian and Evangelical Christian. This article must deeply upset God the Father.

    Were it not for Roman Catholicism and its Church Fathers then NO Christian would have anything to learn of 2,000 years of Christianity. Someone needs to enlighten this writer about the history of Christianity!

    So very sad.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      Vicarius Christos – in the place of Christ.

      The Pope tries to take the place of the Holy Spirit, which is anti-Christ.
      The RCC was founded upon the blood of martyrs and extortions, continues to protect pedophiles, is rife with financial corruption, and institutes a form of cannabilism as sacred rite.

      Were it not for 4th Century Roman Catholicism the Western World may not have had to go through the dark ages.

      • Leeann

        It’s always the same arguments against Catholics. Were you truly again to LEARN more about Roman Catholicism then the Holy Spirit who is “the love between God the Father and Jesus Christ” would lead you to the truth. Tell me this..why don’t you research the amount of protestant pastors that convert to Catholicism because of the fullness of truth that leads them there.

        A form of cannabilism? Wow that’s a first….

        John 6:55-62
        For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59 These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

        Then many of his disciples who were listening turned away and said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” 61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

        • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

          What’s interesting is that when you quote Jesus saying this, at the same time you obviously do not take scripture literally – until it comes to traditions of men. If you did, you would leave the reprobate RCC.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    Well, at least he’s consistent.

    Who knew he could pull off sportin’ a beanie?

  • holly

    Christmas is a Pagan religion that Christians stole! Just like they stole Easter and Valentine’s day! Christians need to stop stealing other people’s holidays and festivals! Give us Pagans our holidays back!

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      Please have ’em! They’re killing my credit score!!

      While you’re at it, absorb the Roman Catholic Church! Wait, …

      • holly

        Lol.

        • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

          It was Constantine, btw, who was nominally Christian, from all appearances – he is the culprit, along with the first 501c3 in history, the Catholic Church.

  • Valerie Bragdon Crawford

    Who is Gendron and why is saying the things he is saying? I know people, my daughter for one, who does not believe in Santa Clause for young children, even though she believed when she was little. It is this new evangelical belief that are warping the minds of otherwise intelligent adults. I do not think it hurts children to know and share the joy of Santa. My daughter’s argument is that if your children believe there is a Santa Clause they will be devastated when they find out there isn’t one. And they may not believe in Jesus anymore because of it. Go figure.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      What if God said, “Your daughter is right” ?

    • Wesley Woods

      Mike Gendron is an embittered ex-catholic who himself claims could not reconcile Catholic eschatology with that of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye. it is ironic that he claims that the Sacred Scripture are his supreme authority, yet Left Behind eschatology cannot be reconciled with the Sacred Scriptures while Catholic eschatology can. he claims that requiring celibacy among Catholic priests, monks, and nuns is a doctrine of demons although Christ himself that there would be people who would chose celibacy in order for kingdom work. the Scriptures tell us about a group of people who also thought that Christ taught doctrines of demons, in fact they went so far to claim that he was the prince of demons, the pharisees. i hope this helps you understand where he is coming from.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    Hey, Jesus participated in Hanukkah festivities (John 10). Not specifically a God-ordained holy day, it centered around a miracle given by God during Maccabean rebellion against the Romans. And the Maccabees were not nearly as cool as Santa. But if you’re going to celebrate the Jolly red guy, why doesn’t anyone celebrate Krampas?

    Hanukkah, however, was not the Mammon worship that it has become today. People literally take out extra credit on their credit accounts to buy gifts they cannot afford so family members don’t get all butt-hurt. This is sad. Then in the middle of all the emotional melee some one will mention something about Jesus and reason and season. Yeah, it goes really far, lemmee tell you. A gospel that easy to ignore is not very good news, is it?

    I think Jesus would say it’s in the manner in which you do it. If it sucks you dry emotionally and financially, it’s worship. It is a heavy burden He nailed to the cross.

  • Charlemagne

    In 4th century all Christians were Catholic!
    This article is littered with deceptions and inaccuracy.
    The Mass is “ritualistic slaying of Jesus Christ on an altar for the purpose of appeasing the wrath of God. This is official Roman Catholic doctrine…”
    This is flat out false. The Catholic Church does not teach that at all. If this man wants to bash the Church he ought to bash it based on what it actual teaches, not straw men. Shameful.

  • John N AshleyCrawley

    Phil and Kay Robertson from Duck Dynasty back this movie for one and for two catholics share very similar beliefs of a baptist…. Being a Christian only requires 3 prerequisites 1 know Jesus Christ as Lord and savior 2 there is no God but Him 3 confess and repent of your sin…..ye without sin shall cast the first stone…. We all are sinners and God is our only judge

  • Wendy Ilene Botha

    maybe JUST maybe, the God of creation and of Abraham, Issac & Jacob and Jesus Christ, the Saviour, gets really, really TIRED of all the infighting, judgemental and self proclaimed “know it all’s”. Maybe JUST maybe, LOVE is supposed to show and rule the way. I know I am tired of all the Advocates and Prosecutors picking an dissecting ………….

  • Melissa Knopf

    So, is anyone else wondering why a man who did “good works” for the Lord and gave…. is being herald years and years afterwards? Aren’t there countless numbers of people who have served the Lord Jesus? Why such emphasis, I find it bizarre. When I give as prompted by the Lord, I keep it to myself as per the Word of God. Secondly………. I always found it wrong to teach my children about Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy.. and then turn around and say.. oops, sorry they aren’t real. It’s lying in nature. Then expecting them to believe that Jesus is real…. Isn’t the whole Santa Clause thing setting up our children to doubt the reality of a God when we already lied to them about the “unseen”???????? Now .. that is worth discussing !

  • Faith Ukwuomah

    *facepalms* Urgh……okay, honestly, I am shocked that THIS is coming from the same guy who was in Fireproof and Left Behind (which happen to be one of my favourite films), I mean, seriously Mr. Cameron? What happened bro? I mean, I love the fact that he is publicly sharing the Gospel to others with no fear whatsoever, but seriously, on the issue of celebrating Halloween and supporting Santa Claus, I’m sorry, no. I’m not buying that. That ain’t right.
    I mean…First of all, do people even realize that Christmas is not about some guy in the red suit, but rather about the birth of Jesus Christ?

    And secondly, really? Halloween? I don’t even celebrate it, due to the demonic origins.

    And thirdly, as for the RCC, some of the doctrines taught over there are not even in line with the Bible, like purgatory, its not in the Bible, because the Bible clearly says that there is only Heaven and Hell. And praying to Mary, I’m sorry that is a no; Jesus clearly said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that no one come through the Father except through Him. Is that so hard?

    And finally, concerning Easter; its getting really annoying that the whole planet thinks its all about the eggs and bunnies, when really Easter is about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Simples.

    • Bob

      SOME ?

      LOL,

      How about if it don’t line up with them, even if distinctly spelled out in scripture then GOD does not approve. At least they warn those who they brainwash, and tell them to read their bibles, like benny hinn, he warns the foolish people but they have not a love for the truth and ears are tickled by doctrines of men.

      And if you’re a young boy who is forced to go there to school or church by your family – carry a knife – and if those blacked robed demons try something – pull out your locked back knife, & if they refuse to stop – serve them some Justice.

      Psalms 119.160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

  • spiritsax1

    My thought is this… Don’t we have more important issues to discuss? It sounds to me, we as Christians (and yes, I include Roman Catholics as Chriatians) have more important things to talk about than this; more important matters to give our attention to than this! Kirk has a very good point though! The idea is to engage people wherever they are! This in-fighting has got to stop! If we spent as much time loving on those around us as we do fighting amongst ourselves, we would have saved the world by now! Come on people! We’re here for two reasons; to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves! The two greatest commands according to Jesus; everything else falls under those two! But, we can’t even love our fellow Christians!

  • Danielle

    Wow. I cannot believe the absurdities and lies the Evangelicals and Born-Agains believe about my faith! ‘a ritualistic slaying of Jesus on the alter to appease a wrathful God’? HUGH??? It is absolutely frightening how these people will spread lies and hate in the name of Christ! If they ever read the Bible they themselves would know that the Eucharist is a re-enactment of the last supper, at which Jesus said “DO THIS in memory of me”. It was a command from our Lord to “DO THIS”. And Jesus at that time said “this IS my body… this IS my blood”. He didn’t say it ‘represents’, he said it IS. Therefor, by the literal interpretation of our Lord’s words at the last supper, the Catholics are correct.

  • Danielle

    Catholics do not ‘make’ people saints, we recognize them as Saints. Catholics do not ‘worship’ saints, we pray to them to ask them, as people particularly close to God, to PRAY FOR US, to INTERCEDE (to GOD!) for us. If you ask other people to pray for you here on Earth, it is the exact same concept! All prayers go to God, and Jesus IS God, and we all pray for each other in this life and the next.

  • Danielle

    Catholics ARE Christian by the definition that they believe Jesus is the Son of God, God incarnate. Carolyn, I think when they answer ‘no’, they are distinguisihing themselves from non-denominations ‘Christians’. Nowdays non-denominational Christians have coined the term ‘Christian’ to describe their non-denominational faith. Thus, Catholics reply is really an abbreviated for of saying they are not ‘non-denominational Christians’, they are Catholic Christians.

  • Danielle

    Yes, Christians (they were not called ‘Catholic’ until reformation!… all early Christianity WAS what we now know as “Catholic”) did use the pagan rituals to help the new converts understand the new concept of the Christian faith. They put it in terms they could understand: the birth of the sun was not the birth of a god of the fireball in the sky, it was the birth of the SON of the one true God. Ostara, in the spring, was the celebration of new life…. so it was explained and taught that we are celebrating the new life of the risen Christ. If you are trying to explain a coletely new concept to people, you have to speak to something they already understand; this is what the ‘pagan’ rituals do. What is important is not HOW you celebrate Christmas in December, what is important is WHY, and the Christians (Catholics!) did a wonderful job of that.

  • Danielle

    Valentine’s day is NOT a ‘pagan’ holiday. Non-Catholics have made it so. The Catholics designate a day of the year to honor and remember a great person of faith who has been recognized as a saint. Saint Patricks day. Saint Valentine’s day, Saint Nicholas day (Dec.6 if I rememer right!). The churches would have a celebration of the day of their name-sake. Then the non-Catholics took over and made them non-Christian both in meaning and in practice (drunkenness for St. Patrick??? He’d be appauled!!) Sexual depravity for St. Valentine who martyered himself to marry in the Christian (Catholic) faith?? it’s a disgrace! If you want to blame anyone for the un-holiness of these saint’s feast days, blame the non-Catholics who took these days of spiritual honor and perverted them, not the Catholics who started them with holy intentions.

  • AGM

    This is an embarrassing article that shows historical ignorance. I say that with all due respect to its author. The fact is that there was no “Roman Catholic Church” in Saint Nicholas’ day. The church was undivided at that time; there were no East/West/Protestant factions. Does that mean everything in the church was perfect? No, of course not. But to simply write Saint Nicholas off as “Roman Catholic” is intellectually dishonest. He’s just as much apart of the apostolic church as any Protestant and he was a strong defender of trinitarian orthodoxy. How dare we disparage his legacy! Oh, and we shouldn’t join Roman Catholics in any spiritual enterprise or activity? Yes, let’s please avoid any united-fronts on Christ’s divinity, incarnation, death, resurrection, second coming, and social issues like abortion and sexual immorality. The world would hate to see Christians united on those issues and voicing them strongly, so let’s just give them what they want! What an evil, sectarian position that is. Believe it or not, Protestants and Catholics agree more than we disagree.

    • mjastudios

      I basically reiterated the same above not having seen your post. Embarrassing ignorance of the church.

  • Jana McDuff Hagan

    Personally I wish there was no denomination. It is one of Satan’s greatest tools. It does more to divide than to unite. God wants us to be united in His Son so we can share His Good News.

  • Yvonne Mishail

    Haters are going to hate!! If you are a Christian and being hated then you are probably doing something right!! Kirk is an amazing Christian and he is unashamed to preach the gospel and love of Jesus. Stop hating on our fellow brother in Christ and praise God he is chose to use his fame to glorify our Lord!!!!

  • Kathleen George-Bol

    I have a few questions for the writer of the article and anyone else who takes umbrage with Kirk’s, mine or anyone else’s view of Christmas that is not their own: Have you been given the true insight to judge hearts? Would you have picked David out of a line-up to be king? Would you accept him into heaven based on the history we have of him in the bible? Would you have known the history of the woman at the well in Canaan? Would you have accepted Zacchaeus or Mary Magdalene? Would you have put your hands on Paul to help the scales off of Paul’s eyes after he had stoned your fellow believers? Only God knows the true hearts of anyone. True, we can tell a great deal about people by their actions, but they don’t tell the whole story. Only God himself can see the entire person and what He means to them. Even St. Paul used that which the people he was trying to convert to teach them about the Triune God – Acts 17:22-24 & 34 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23″For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24″The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;…Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. So if St. Paul can use the pagan to teach and use it for good why can’t we modern day followers of the Christ? Also, are you truly admonishing out of love or out of your own self-righteousness? Articles would have a different tone if they were out of love. Such as, I am concerned that we, as followers of Christ, are getting away from the true meaning of Christmas. That meaning has to do with the True Gift of the Christ to man from God for the salvation of all through his perfect life, death and resurrection. I have seen others post about the evergreen tree signifying everlasting life, the cross and the manger where the Christ child was born. I know that presents are our attempt at emulating the Gift that was given by God. I know that the wreaths on the door form a perfect circle, much like the rainbow that God gave us as a promise. I practice yoga, which originated in India with the Hindus. Some will vilify me as not a true Christian. I have studied the religions of the world to understand what they are that I may not be ignorant when going into the world to proclaim the gospel. If we completely vilify the person before trying to proclaim the gospel, we will get nowhere. You see, I practice the physical yoga, not the spiritual. All religions get sooooo close and then they die, literally and figuratively, because they don’t have the Gift of the Christ and of his salvation. but I implore you, do not turn away hearts! Look at the soul of men, which God declared good as tainted with original sin (mine as well) and needs the washing of the blood to become as it once was. If we focus on that, we cannot miss the mark and will draw many to the Triune God!

    • Amy Tikal Thesing

      I LOVE what you are saying! Very well said! the more we know about each other the more human other becomes! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

  • Frank Sipps III

    It appears the same habit that Christians have is picking the wrong battles. I play Santa and hand out out gospel gift bags with a Christian DVD were Santa tells the true meaning of Christmas, I also do a skit as Santa were I tell children its not about me but about the babe born in the manager my Lord and Savior. I also do hallowen with gospel fall festival treats one of the coloring pages says “candy is sweat but Jesus is sweater”. I take advantage of every opportunity to share the gospel.is that not what we are suppose to do re read Paul sermon on Mars hill. Talk about opening doors Santa has been invited to be at Walgreen’s ( Jewish owned) and also allowed to include a birthday party for Jesus and hand out his gospel bags. Even his candy cane with story of candy cane. One of my favored sayings if it is putting out the gospel of Christ leave it alone if you read your bible you will find out that this is a biblical truth..If we spent has much time ans energy sharing the gospel as we do on things that have no bearing on our salvation what a difference this world would be.

  • PAndrews

    Gendron is a Grinch! In EVERYTHING we do, we should do it for Jesus Christ. Santa is an opportunity to share the Gospel.

  • Roselind Berry

    I do not celebrate Halloween, and for my family, this has been a doorway to sharing what we believe. Along with that, I have tried to honor children, either by giving out a sack of candy midmonth, or by participating with a church activity that leaves out the dark elements, where costumes may honor saints, secular heros like firefighters and Spidey, animals, but not demons, ghouls, witches etc.

    I am a catholic — a believer that salvation is for everyone, the opportunity is universal — but I am not Roman Catholic. There is a difference, without the extra-biblical stuff of worshipping Mary and others with idols all over the place, or the refusal to recognize the priesthood of all believers, or the refusal to admit that EVERY saved person is, by definition, a saint.
    I think that being a Christian is more personal than institutional, and I have certainlay had, and do currently have, friends who are members of the RCC. I also know members of other denominations who are definitely not Christian; “You shall know them by their fruits.” There are many possible suitable choices, but each must be made with Biblical discernment and prayerful consideration. Whatever you decide, please do it with a clear conscience.
    ,

    • Jennifer Hartline

      Roselind, Catholics do not worship Mary. Sigh… this accusation gets so very tiresome. Mary is the Mother of God. She is called the Mother of God because Jesus Christ is truly God and truly man. You cannot separate His divinity from His humanity. She is His mother; so she is the mother of God. That title for her is more about Jesus than it is about her. It was declared in order to correct a heresy at the time regarding the humanity of Jesus.
      As the Mother of God, we HONOR her. We LOVE her, because Jesus loves her. We ask for her prayers because who, exactly, could be closer to the heart of Christ than her? We give her the esteem and honor due her because she was chosen by God from among all women to be the pure and spotless Ark of the New Covenant. In her virginal womb, the Son of God took on human flesh and became man. Thanks to her fiat! So we have a great and profound affection and love for her, as all children should have for such a loving mother.

  • mjastudios

    At the time of Nicholas and the Council of Nicea, all Christians were catholics. The West had not broken with the Orthodox church and Protestants hadn’t started protesting later Catholic (capital “C”) abuses and doctrines. The issues that Roman Catholicism later began became an issue with may inside and outside the church. To say Nicholas was a Catholic is to show a poor understanding of church history regardless of what you think about Santa and the commercialization of a Holy day.

  • Sean Bishop

    First, Saint Nicholas was not “Roman Catholic.” There was no “Roman” Catholic moniker when Nikolas of Myra lived. He was from Turkey and as such likely followed a much more “Eastern” philosophy which is the polar opposite of “Roman” thinking, even back then. During his time there was no distinct Eastern versus Roman Catholicism and this was pre-schism which means there was no “Roman” Catholic Church to speak of. It would be much more accurate to identify him with the the Greek or Antioch churches (later to become Eastern Orthodox), But the fact remains he certainly was not “Roman Catholic” even in his own time as there were no “Roman” Catholics in the sense it is commonly used today to distinguish those who exclusively yield authority to the Bishop of Rome or Pope (of Rome).

    Second, who are you to say who is or is not a Christian? I have no doubt there people who are very poor examples of Christianity in all denominations and the Roman Catholic denomination certainly has no monopoly on that. Some of the best true Christians of this world have come from every denomination, including Roman Catholics, and it is unnecessarily arrogant, ignorant, prideful, and divisive to say or imply otherwise. And I say this as someone who is not a Roman Catholic CHRISTIAN.

    Third, people are celebrating whatever it is that those people are celebrating. If someone is celebrating “dress up and act goofy giving out candy day – AKA Halloween” then that is all it is, It is of no importance what someone else considers that day to mean or not. When we have a birthday party for someone who happened to be born on September 11th, we are celebrating their birthday. We are not celebrating that America got attacked on that day even though I am sure that somewhere someone is doing exactly that. It does not matter what “pagan” roots there are to any particular day being chosen or what the intentions of the original celebrants was. What matters is what you are celebrating and that is all. In my opinion it was very wise for the early Church to pick pagan holidays to celebrate Christian Holy Days. Christ wanted to convert pagans and you can’t do that being an island unto yourself.

    Fourth, it could be said that any cross is an idol (and in fact lo-and-behold some Christian denominations do just that surprise surprise). It could be said that having even an image of a cross is symbolizing or recreating the sacrifice that Jesus made and thus if this is done regularly at even a a “Protestant” denomination then that could also be characterized as “ritualistic slaying” all the same. It isn’t just the Roman Catholic denomination that has such practices. The Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy is not a “Mass” per se at all, much more of a celebration, and yet they too believe the communion becomes the real body and blood of Christ. Some protestant denominations, like Lutheran and Episcopalian denominations, also believe this. It is hardly an exclusively RCC belief.

    Fifth, the Roman Catholic Church did not “make” Nikolas of Myra a saint nor do they claim any such thing, at least not in the sense the author implies. Nikolas of Myra was widely RECOGNIZED as a saint for centuries before the “Roman” Catholic Church even came to exist. The original “Catholic Church” (note lack of the adjective “Roman”) was comprised of what is NOW known as the Roman Catholic Church AND the Eastern Orthodox Church (as well as the Coptic Orthodox). Please cite some actual reference to the assertion that either the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox Church feel they have the authority to “make” anyone at all a saint. There is a fundamental difference between “recognizing” someone as a saint and “making” them a saint. Just as a jury or judge might recognize a defendant is a criminal but didn’t make them such. Now, if for the sake of semantics for a lazy and ignorant society the word “recognized” is replaced with “made”; that still does not change the underlying meaning. In America, when someone is found “not guilty” at trial it is commonly reported that they were found to be “innocent.” No one is really ever found innocent in American criminal courts and yet the terminology is used all the time. It is a shame that we allow ourselves to impart false meaning to lazy-man terminology.

    Lastly, I agree with what others have asked here regarding if this is what we have come to as Christians – pointing fingers and endlessly arguing over the rulebook while forgetting to play the game. Normally I try not to let myself get pulled into these sorts of usually fruitless discussions but the large numbers of gross distortions in the article were too much to just let go. Please stop attacking each other based on such petty things.

  • http://www.remnantofgod.org John1429dotorg

    Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. -Leviticus 18:30

    “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:” -Exodus 19:5,

    “These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” -Revelation 14:4,

    Do you do as the rest of the world does? Do you embrace their festivities as did the people of Noah’s day? Do you keep their customs and partake in their feasts that are looked upon as an abomination unto your God? Or are you a “peculiar treasure” unto the Lord God Creator? Does the ever faithful Groom look upon you as His virgin
    keeping His New Covenant not defiled by the customs and abominations shared by
    Rome to all the world? Does He see you as the firstfruits unto God and to the
    Lamb?

    I pray so…

    Final thought…

    Christmas has been designed by Rome so as to make it nearly impossible for you to give it up. Your family, friends, and everyone you meet that says “Merry Christmas” will look upon you as “strange, peculiar and odd” when you tell them that you do not celebrate Christmas. Your children, will cry out to you their disappointment when you inform them that you have decided to do as the Lord you worship would have you do. Your loved ones will be offended when you tell them you won’t be giving them Christmas gifts anymore. Your boss, your friends, you co-workers, all of them have been programmed by Rome to look upon you as one that is strange and un-Christlike when you inform them you cannot take part in the festivities they embrace so wholeheartedly. But rest assured, there is one that will look upon you as one worthy of His embrace when all the world hates you for His sake…

    “And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my
    sake, and the gospel’s, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.” -Mark 10:29-31

    To follow Christ is to stop following the world.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC3qk8g8NEE

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      I am pretty sure God was speaking of sexual sensual worship of Him or any idol (a Ba’al or Ashtoreth) and burning infants alive in the arms of a Molech.

      That said, Santa is the Jolly Idol Version of the Wall Street Bull outside the NYSE

  • http://sprattscribbler.wordpress.com/ Carson Spratt

    Could we just pause for a moment and note that in 325 there was no Roman Catholic church, but only the Church? How can they possibly “accuse” St. Nicholas of being a Roman Catholic? Is the Nicene Creed Roman Catholic? If the Nicene Creed is Roman Catholic, I’m definitely RC. BUt if by Roman Catholic you mean the Church that the Reformers split from after 1517, then there’s no way that St. Nicholas was Roman Catholic. Sheesh.
    Be precise with your terms,
    Find an actual bone to pick,
    If you really don’t like
    Our very own St. Nick.

  • Jennifer Hartline

    The anti-Catholic hostility and abysmal ignorance displayed in this article is just astounding. Pastor Gendron is woefully blind and pridefully ignorant of what the Church really teaches, who the Church really is, and where that Bible he holds in his hands actually came from. How very, very sad that he perpetuates this sort of bigotry. This piece treats Catholics like some sort of boogey man that “real Christians” need to be afraid of and attack, lest they “contaminate” the purity of Protestants. What utter rubbish. Pastor Gendron and his ilk are not the inventors of Christianity, nor is he the preserver of the faith. Christ left us a Church; His Body on earth. Thanks be to God for the gift of the Catholic Church!

  • Katharostekardia

    …The fact that St Nicholas is venerated by Roman Catholics (along with Anglicans, Episcopalians, and miscellaneous other denominations and individuals – probably Eastern Orthodox as well, given that he was in Turkey) doesn’t mean that he was a Roman Catholic in the sense that people are Roman Catholics now. I mean, I’m reasonably sure that’s not a distinction that was being made when he was alive. Anyone here have a better memory for church history than I do?

  • Mark David

    This is my view…as a Bible believing disciple of Christ…who has the HOLY SPIRIT: I liked Christmas when i was a kid…who would not like running into a room and opening a bunch of presents…ok so moving on…as i got older i no longer had a true desire to celebrate Christmas in gift giving tree decorating fashion i recognized it to be a consumer holiday that big business capitalized on and when i surrendered my life to GOD i screamed PAGAN! at the top of my lungs, I did however continue with the tradition because of my mother who was getting old, sick, and who would soon after die. i think it was last year when something was really driven home with me about Christmas…as pagan as it is…its the ONLY day of the year(aside from Easter) on a mass scale that people acknowledge YESHUA HaMashiach (Jesus The Christ) as the Messiah of the world, the SON of GOD. I dont believe we should go cut a tree down…adorn it with ornaments and spend our paychecks on spoiling each other…people sing about HIM, people watch plays and shows about HIM. i agree in not holding an image up or worshiping any saint or any angel for that mater…
    1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV)
    5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; So for me i say as a Disciple of Christ let the day stand just educate the people in LOVE admonishing gently and not making accusations and divisions. Mike Gendron is in error in my opinion. Context + Content = meaning and i believe he missed the mark “Born again Christians should not be joining Roman Catholics in any spiritual enterprise or activity,” Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network. “Paul called us to remain separate from unbelievers who embrace a false gospel. Light and darkness have nothing in common and there is no agreement between the temple of God and idols (2 Cor. 6:14-18).” if you are damning anyone in the body whether they are called Catholic, Protestant, Lutheran, i tell you now that some of the people who sit in “Christian” churches and profess will die in their sin. the men who attempt to corrupt and pervert the WORD of GOD will pay.. their judgement is not idle even as the bible speaks…i dont believe we should follow damnable heresies and such but celebrating a day on a mass scale that can bring forth the message which is the Good news “The Gospel” weather or not the world and or its rulers (principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places) try to add pagan elements to it consider this …if there was no day as this where The SON of GOD was openly proclaimed to be The Heir of HIS Rightful Throne…you already let them take the bibles out of the schools…the ten commandments off the walls of the judiciary system and our capitals…you are letting them persecute the homeless and the ones in need by allowing these laws that proclaim and enforce that you cannot feed the hungry on the street or you will be fined and or arrested…if you let them take Christ out of the day you claim is bad by performing that which YESHUA HIMSELF directed us Luke 22:19-20; 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.; if you do it do it in remembrance…if that is your basis and the error of man in the RCC then this article is not Christian..its not of The HOLY SPIRIT…and furthermore its not of GOD..Isaiah 5:20 King James Bible
    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!;
    Romans 16:17King James Version (KJV)
    17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.; Correction is needed…causing division is unnecessary and contrary to our goal and job as The Body Of Christ…if the devil can cause us to bite and devour one another then by golly….i think he has accomplished it in this article…pray before you write and post these article please..seek GOD with your whole heart because it just may be that you have other peoples blood on your hands this day.
    1 John 3:18 (AKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
    18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

  • Andrew J. Corrales

    May I contribute that St. Nicholas wasn’t Catholic? At the time Christianity hadn’t split yet, and the early 300’s was certainly before any pagan practices had really significantly gotten in Christianity. If St. Nick had lived after 1054 we’d say he was Catholic, but he didn’t. The word “catholic” was used by all Christians back then–both sides of the Roman Empire–because it technically means “universal.” And can I ask people to stop ranting at each other? When fellow Christian brothers and sisters accuse each other of being “satanic,” it’s going overboard. God bless. 🙂

  • Arrie

    Okay so Christmas will always be a hot topic. I also think this St. Nicolas dude did something good – something you can say is fruit of the love of an Almighty God – YHVH.
    Why have a public holiday to celebrate him, not so sure – do not place any man/woman/thing/animal on pedestal – enough scripture already mentioned about this.
    So maybe no reason to try and crucify the dude – after all, none of us here knows his state of salvation, or heart – that belongs to YHVH.
    Let’s get back to the birth of Christ – it can definitely be considered important and reflect the love of the Father for all humanity, so it’s important. But this did not even happen on 25 December. So are we supposed to celebrate it? Does the bible instruct to celebrate it?
    I like to make reference of this to my children – for the sake of the little ones in the house – teach them where this comes from – now is your opportunity. You know – the world so successfully teaches our children that life is about things (mammon) – I think to an extent Christmas makes it worse, it’s all about what I can get, so I want, I want, I want. This kind of teaching is very unhealthy to our children and grows with them to adulthood.
    I have not seen the movie and wonder if this is what Mr Cameron has in mind – teaching us to less I want I want, and more Christ is King, Christ is King.
    Will have to go see the movie to confirm – so for now I stand undecided on the fruit as this movie and related comments.

  • Mark

    Santa and Christmas are all a form of Pagan worship and now corporate greed. Kirk Cameron should book of Exodus where it says clearly to avoid celebrating days, weeks and years so he doesn’t look like such a fool.

  • Pamela Lanning Holcombe

    I believe in Christmas n so does Billy Graham. I dare to see or hear anyone call him pagan, with all the nes he has lead to the Lord n God has blessed abundantly 7 times over. Christmas as any other day is a day of giving, of love, of joy, of laughter, families coming together n worshipping the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. I really do not think our Father in heaven would bless such a God fearing man like he has, if it was wrong. Hmm n one more thing, isnt that concidered as judging? GBU n BWU always

  • http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EvidencefortheBible/ Galut1

    Many Christians know that Jesus was born at another time of the year … the time of year he was born for me is a side issue to the real message of salvation that Jesus brought …we should not let that divide us … the commercialism of Christmas is a bigger issue for me because it overshadows the real reason Jesus came …a recent visit to Walmart ,I wondered through the isles and found only one small area that had a dozen products that truly represented the true message of Christmas …..a check of other stores show much the same thing …

  • http://TheGodDare.com TheGodDare.com

    The article is historically incorrect. It is not accurate to call Nicolas of Myra “Catholic,” nor to ascribe the same label to Silvester I, nor to slam the Council of Nicea as “ecumenical.”

    Nicholas was bishop of Myra at the same time that Silvester I (314-335) who was bishop of Rome when Constantine was the first Christian emperor of the Roman Empire.

    Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in 325 to erase unbiblical schisms by deciding and declaring the divine identity of Jesus Christ. The Council affirmed that He, as God the Son, is equivalent in essence with God the Father, which gave us what is called the “doctrine of the Trinity.” Both Nicholas and Silvester I participated in the Council, which also made clear that local bishops were not subject to the rule of the Church of Rome (how “Catholic” is that?).

    This was happening about 100 years before any future bishops of Rome even thought of regarding themselves as “head” of the worldwide Christian Church. For example, according to Dr. Henry H. Halley, author of the epic work called “Halley’s Bible Handbook,” Innocent I
    (402-417) called himself “Ruler of the Church of God,” and “claimed the right to settle the more important matters of controversy in the Whole Church.”

    But Innocent I, a few generations after Silvester I, exemplified the first sparks of the unbiblical fire that strove to replace the word of God with man as the authority. This blasphemy only really caught on in the 700s, and more so, in the 800s. But there is no historical history, context, writing, or record showing that Silvester I of Rome or Nicholas of Myra were “Catholic” or held unbiblical doctrines. All the reputable evidence says they were biblical Christians.

    Sources:

    “What occurred at the Council of Nicea?”
    http://www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.html

    “Church History” by Henry H. Halley
    http://www.biblestudysite.com/history.htm#8

  • OrthodoxChristian

    Roman Catholicism didn’t exist until 1054, when it fell away from the One Holy and Apostolic Church (aka ‘Eastern’ Orthodoxy) and then promptly went on to the Crusades and the Inquistions. Therefore, St. Nicholas wasn’t, nor could be, “Roman Catholic.” Nor was he, nor anyone, else a Protesting/Reformed Roman Catholic, as they didn’t break their mother Rome until the 1500s, and the Evangelicals with their standards of who is or isn’t a “Christian” (as we see idiotically in this thread) didn’t come another 300 years or so after that.

  • bigpawn01

    omg kirk cameron is so much of a idiot even his own people hate him he needs to just shut up and slip back into obscurity.

    • Wesley Woods

      this “news” organization is not Kirk Cameron’s own people for they represent only a small group of fundamentalists Christians who faith is more in their interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures not in Christ. most Christians reject several beliefs of these Christians.

  • Sandy

    I wonder if Kirk Cameron tells his kids that Santa sees them when they’re sleeping and knows when they’re awake. Isn’t that robbing God of His attributes? Combining this jolly, toy gifting Santa with the fulfillment of prophecy in the birth of God the Son in human flesh results in kids (and often parents) being more excited about a lie than the Truth.

    • Amy Tikal Thesing

      What are God’s attributes?. And what is the truth? Does anyone know what the absolute truth is? Do you believe faith to be an acceptable substitute for truth and hence an acceptable answer? Do you believe there is only one possible truth for all people?

  • Harrison

    This site is clearly biased, and strongly opposed to Roman Catholicism, though mainly by way of misrepresentation. However, what’s more concerning about the reaction here is that Kirk Cameron is being criticized for trying to redeem something that clearly has Christian roots. Christmas is a holiday meant to publicly celebrate the Incarnation of Christ as part of his redemptive work. Why people wouldn’t support an overtly Christian holiday being celebrated in a Christian manner, even if that looks different from Puritan Christianity is beyond me.

  • Amy Tikal Thesing

    If you are an individual who is cutting and pasting in any sort of responses that have been prepared for you by another Apologetic resource, don’t bother. Cutting and pasting does not make you smart it makes you a fraud and doubly so because you are using pre-programmed responses, example…”Rather than writing out what this article would say anyway….” Do you really know this or is this knowledge someone else has given to you to refute specific claims such as I have seen on CARM.org.

  • http://maxfur.com/ Max T. Furr

    Good for him. I see no difference between Santa and Jesus. Christians believe in an invisible magic man so children should be allowed to believe in a magic jolly ol’ elf. At least the elf is fun.

    • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

      I suppose that you also believe in Unicorns, Leprechauns, and Magic Genies that grant wishes upon a rub of an oil lamp too?
      Do you see these “Fun Things” while smoking your Pot, or, does it come from your medications? Or, are you just someone that just has hallucinations all the time?
      Maybe you’re on a Acid Trip?….have you ever had a “Bad Trip”?….you know – one that “Wasn’t Fun”??……or do you just wear “Rose Colored Glasses”?

      You said that “JESUS IS AN INVISIBLE MAGIC MAN”, and said “HE AND SANTA CLAUS ARE THE SAME”, at least IN YOUR EYES….and that “ONLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN THIS”.

      Tell me something MAX……have you EVER PICKED UP A “HISTORY BOOK”???
      Have you EVER read it?
      If you did then you would KNOW that in FACT….”JESUS DID EXIST, AND WAS INDEED CRUCIFIED BY THE ROMANS”……..this is a HISTORICAL FACT THAT “NO ONE CAN DENY”……regardless of them being CHRISTIAN, OR ATHEIST.

      While the “LEGEND OF SANTA CLAUS” might be DEBATABLE……there is NOTHING DEBATABLE ABOUT THE “EXISTENCE OF JESUS CHRIST”.

      Jesus is NOT SOME MAGIC INVISIBLE MAN.

      And, THERE WAS “NOTHING FUN ABOUT THE TORTURE HE SUFFERED”.

      So, go play with your “Little Elf’s”….have your FUN.
      But stay out of conversations that YOU HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF.

      Enjoy your “Magical Fun People”…….we “IN THE REAL WORLD” will keep to the “FACTS ABOUT REALITY”, and the HISTORY of JESUS CHRIST.

      Now….go play with your ELF’S, and have some more FUN,

      • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

        I figured someone on this thread would be unable to understand parody. I don’t believe in invisible or visible magic men and certainly not ancient sky gods or their alleged avatars. I view them all the same.
        Yet I am amused by your post. Sorry you feel you most condescend, but go on believing in your invisible magic man/sky god.

        • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

          You call it “Parody”…..I call it MOCKING MY HOLY GOD.
          I could care less about “Your SKY gods”…..KEEP THEM CONFINED TO YOUR OWN HALLUCINATIONS.

          But, when you criticize that JESUS EXISTED, all you have done is PROVEN WITH YOUR ASININE COMMENT that your are not only IGNORANT, but, also DISMISSIVE OF HISTORICAL FACTS.

          The “Parody” you speak of is YOU, as you display your own IGNORANCE.

          So, you ADMIT that your entire post WAS TO “IRRITATE TRUE BELIEVERS THAT JESUS CHRIST DID EXIST”.

          I suppose that makes you think you’re “intelligent”, now, eh?

          Who will give you any CREDIBILITY in anything you post when you WRITE LIKE A CHILD?

          By all means….BOAST ABOUT YOUR OWN IGNORANCE.

          I enjoy that very much.

          By all means continue to show YOUR IGNORANCE TO FACTS……most PSYCHOPATHS DO.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            My my, I think you just might take the Golden Ad Hominem Prize of the Year. Are you capable of civility?
            Yes, I insulted your belief, which is something I do not normally do. I prefer civil debate, but I do fall short now and then.
            Let’s have an intellectual debate. What evidence/facts do you have to support your belief, and have you always believed this religion this deeply?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            See…even now you still show IGNORANCE.

            Who said ANYTHING ABOUT “RELIGION”??
            That is something “You’ve STUDIED”……not something “I PRACTICE”.

            Is it a Religion to believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun?
            Is it a Religion to believe that War Kills?
            Is it a Religion to believe that Children Are Born Of Women??

            These are FACTS, which have NOTHING TO DO WITH “RELIGION”.

            I believe in FACTS.

            I believe that BEFORE THERE WERE ‘LAWS’ PEOPLE WERE LAWLESS, and that most of the world today RELY ON THOSE LAWS TO PROVIDE “CIVILITY OF ONE MAN TO ANOTHER”.
            Without these Laws….ANARCHY REIGNS.

            If these Laws came from PURE LOGIC which dictates that ABIDING BY THESE LAWS REDUCES STRIFE, AND DEATH, AND CRUELTY….then their PURPOSE must surely be of GOOD INTENT.

            I believe that GOOD INTENT has “Shaped The Thinking” of BARBARIANS TO BECOME CIVILIZED, and, most of the Countries in the world today are GUIDED BY THOSE LAWS IN ONE MANNER OR ANOTHER.

            This is called “GOODNESS”….which is the opposite of “EVIL”.
            I believe that EVIL IS DESTRUCTIVE, while GOODNESS IS KINDNESS, AND LOVE……surely this is also a FACT…..just like the Sun & the Earth.

            Then the next LOGICAL STEP is “What Created All This”??
            It didn’t come from NOWHERE….it was CREATED.
            Only a SUPREME BEING COULD’VE DONE THIS.

            And that is GOD.

            You can believe whatever you want….no one is stopping you.
            But, don’t tell me WHAT I SHOULD BELIEVE simply because YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT……that’s YOUR CHOICE, not mine.

            Religion is MAN MADE…….just like ATHEISM IS MAN MADE.

            But, no one can deny THAT WE EXIST, and no one can deny that ONLY A CREATOR “MADE US”.

            Denying or not….CANNOT CHANGE THE FACTS.

            And I believe in FACTS.

            You asked if “I’M CAPABLE OF CIVILITY”?…….not with someone that DENIES FACTS.
            And, I’m certainly NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR DARWINIST IDEOLOGY EITHER.

            We have nothing to discuss, except for the FACT that you deny that JESUS CHRIST EVER EXISTED.
            It’s not up to me to PROVE IT TO YOU…..it’s up to you to PROVE HE DIDN’T EXIST, as you are the one THAT MADE THE CLAIM……not me.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “I believe that EVIL IS DESTRUCTIVE, while GOODNESS IS KINDNESS, AND LOVE”
            Okay, no kindness here. Have a great life.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            “Yes, I insulted your belief, which is something I do not normally do.”

            You’re RIGHT…you have NO KINDNESS THERE.

            Thanks for at least seeing YOUR FAULTS.

            But, it is not up to me to put kindness into your heart, and neither is it up to me to forgive you for your callousness, and offensiveness towards others in your “PARODIES” which should only be reserved for your “Like Minded” haters, and not among these fine Christian Folks.

            We don’t go to your ATHEIST MEETINGS…..don’t come to OURS.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, I am one who does introspection. It is clear that you are not. The message I gave may have been insulting, but it as only from the way I expressed it. The idea was spot on. Religious certitude IS mental bankruptcy. Correct ideas must be founded on something objectively concrete.

            You haven’t the honesty or fortitude to answer my point about one’s religious beliefs being a function of what you’ve been taught to believe. You can only sling hollow, condescending retorts.

            Faith is the belief in the truth of a proposition where there is no evidence to the contrary.

            Blind faith is the belief in the truth of a proposition even in the face of contrary evidence.

            Yours is blind faith.

            Don’t bother responding because it will be nothing but hatred born of fear, which is born of insecurity.

            Yes, insecurity. You lash out at me because you know you have no objective answers or evidence with which to defend your mental territory–but only the weakness of subjective beliefs to which you feel you must cling or be lost in a world you do not understand.

            Your cyber shouts are evidence of the tantrum you are throwing for having felt me attempt to pull you from your warm, cosmic teat and have you look at the real world with objectivity.

            I’m sorry that you cannot use the mental faculties you believe your god gave you. I pity you.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Does your IGNORANCE ever end?
            You want to speak as though you know some SECRET that has been pulled over the eyes of the World.
            You also ASSUME that I am one of those that are BLINDED, all this without knowing a SINGLE THING ABOUT ME.
            That’s interesting because I ALREADY TOLD YOU SOMETHING THAT WENT “RIGHT OVER YOUR HEAD”…..so much for your “Introspection’s”…..you can’t even read what’s RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE.
            I also admire the way you pat yourself on the back by saying “I WAS SPOT ON” when I insulted your beliefs….NO MODESTY MISSED THERE, EH?….again, another PAT ON YOUR OWN BACK…….and then you talk to ME about “INSECURITY”???
            Surely, me thinks thou doesth protest too much….and for what?
            All to prove you know this GRAND SECRET, and the ENTIRE WORLD IS MADE UP OF FOOLS…..”EXCEPT YOU, OF COURSE”……another PAT ON YOUR OWN BACK.

            You are INSISTENT that I belong to some CULT, OR RELIGION, when I CLEARLY EXPLAINED TO YOU THAT I DO NOT…..In fact, I was quite CLEAR in saying that RELIGION IS “MAN MADE”, JUST LIKE YOUR “ATHEISM IS MAN MADE”…..(A FLAW YOU ALSO OVERLOOKED)……guess who’s one of your Members?…..”YOU”!!……Has it EVER occurred to you that it is YOU that has a BLINDER ON?….that it is YOU that is CLUELESS?…….of course NOT, that would ruin a PERFECTLY GOOD SELF INDULGING ILLUSION, WHICH SAYS: “I’M RIGHT, AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG”.
            An illusion (DELUSION) like that only serves that one HAVING IT…..and guess what?…YOU HAVE NO ONE TO CHALLENGE YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE “CLOSED THEM ALL OUT AS BEING BLIND, AND YOU HAVE SAID YOU’RE THE ONLY ONE WITH GLASSES ON”…….poor US.
            It’s NO WONDER THAT “YOU PITY US”…..what a shame that we all don’t think like you do……somehow, I’d bet you’d STILL PITY US, as you’d find SOMETHING ELSE THAT YOU KNOW THAT NO ONE ELSE KNOWS…..AND AGAIN YOU WOULD “PROVE YOUR AUTHORITY OVER THE REST OF US POOR SCHMUCKS”.

            PAAAALEEEESSSE….

            YOU THINK YOU’RE THE “FIRST RAIN MAKER” TO CROSS THESE PARTS???
            YOU MUST CERTAINLY THINK SO, CONSIDERING HOW “BLIND YOU THINK WE ALL ARE”.
            AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, IF YOU CAN CONVINCE ENOUGH PEOPLE HOW “PITIFUL THEY ARE”, AND HOW “BLIND THEY ARE”…….YOU JUST MIGHT BE ABLE TO “SELL THAT BOOK OF YOURS” ……WHICH SHOWS ONLY THE IGNORANCE YOU BELIEVE WE ALL SUFFER FROM.
            NEVER REALIZING THAT THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BEING FOOLED HERE…..IS “MAX”.

            To think you can FORCE PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO YOUR DRIBBLE, only reinforces the fact that YOU THINK EVERYONE IS BLIND.

            One day….you will WAKE UP from your self indulging DELUSION, and REALIZE that the WORLD HAS BEEN GOING AROUND AND AROUND “LONG BEFORE MAX EVER SHOWED UP”…..AND, GUESS WHAT ELSE?
            IT WILL GO AROUND AND AROUND “LONG AFTER YOU, AND YOUR DELUSIONS ARE LONG GONE”.

            You’re the one that NEEDS PITY, as well as a PSYCHIATRIST.

            But, what the heck…..give it a SHOT….maybe you can be the next DARWIN…..ya never know.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S….I’m not “Lashing out at you”…..
            “I’M MAKING FUN OF YOU”.

            How does it feel?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            AS FOR NOW….ALL YOU ARE IS A “TALKING HEAD” FOR THE OTHER “HATERS OF THE WORLD” THAT CAME LONG BEFORE YOU EVER SHOWED UP.

            I’D BET THAT YOU’VE NEVER HAD ONE SINGLE THOUGHT “OF YOUR OWN”…..AND THAT ALL YOU’VE BEEN “TAUGHT” CAME FROM ALL YOUR “ATHEISTIC BOOKS”.

            NOW….WHO’S IN A “RELIGION”?….ME, OR YOU?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Personal attacks are the refuge of cowards. You will not answer my questions because you have no answers. Again, I pity you.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Considering the FACT that you believe you’re an EXPERT on “Christianity”, I find it absurd that you should even make such a challenge.
            Don’t you know? Are you still IGNORANT?

            “I don’t lay my pearls among swine”.

            However, even you can’t see your own HYPOCRISY.
            It was YOU who ATTACKED “Jesus Christ” as being an “Invisible Magic Man”.
            Sadly you cannot even JUSTIFY that statement, as it is well documented that HE EXISTED, and was CRUCIFIED.
            Even dumb ATHEISTS know that – except you, perhaps.

            Go play with your Carl Marx DOLL that the “Little Elf’s Brought You”.

            After 3 days….”THIS” is what you come back at me with???

            LOL.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.P.S…..I’ve seen ALL THIS you wrote in nearly EVERYONE of your POSTS.
            Don’t you have any NEW MATERIAL to “dazzle Me” with??

            In fact, I’ve read ALL OF YOUR POSTS.
            A bit repetitive, don’t you think?

            While, I’m not one for “bragging”, but, I seriously doubt that you can find ONE POST of MINE that reads IDENTICALLY THE SAME as any other post I’ve made.
            “THAT’S CALLED ORIGINAL THOUGHTS”…..which don’t come from ATHEIST BOOKS…….you really should TRY THAT SOMETIME…..maybe then people can see you as someone with “NEW THOUGHTS” instead of a TALKING HEAD for ATHEISM.
            And then, someone may actually sit down and PONDER what you just wrote as SOMETHING NEW………until then, you’re simply a BLOWHARD who doesn’t get tired of REPEATING HIMSELF, and always being TOSSED ASIDE as badly as someone repeating HENNY YOUNGMAN’S RUSTY OLD JOKES.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            What I find most interesting about ATHEIST is how they LOVE to say “What Christians Believe”……that is an OXYMORON.
            An ATHEIST preaching what CHRISTIANS BELIEVE.
            What a JOKE that is….when the very CORE OF ATHEISM IS “NON-BELIEF”….yet they tell everyone else “WHAT NOT TO BELIEVE”…….I’d rather blow my brains out than to have NOTHING TO BELIEVE IN…..what else is there to “Live For”?

            What’s even more remarkable is that ATHEISTS DON’T BELIEVE IN ANYTHING. All they do is MOCK OTHERS THAT HAVE “BELIEFS”.

            How does it feel to be NON-FEELING ABOUT ANYTHING?
            Uncommitted to anything?
            Hateful of everything?

            I can’t think of a more LONELIER thing to be, which is someone that BELIEVES IN NOTHING.

            Yeah….YOU ROCK!!!

  • 4everlife

    Christians are falling by the wayside…
    Lord, help me to stand.

  • whearn1

    I would like to add another perspective to this discussion. The reason the world embraces Christmas yet rejects Christ, Christmas is all about the baby Jesus, harmles and helpless, and as long as the world can only see the baby they are happy to celebrate, but Jesus became a man. The gospel is not about the baby Jesus, but the man. It was the man that told men about their sinful lost condition, about the futility of all their religious efforts to please a holy God, about the secret sin of the heart that is always visible to God. Kirk can celebrate the baby along with the rest of the lost, but until we draw close to the man Jesus it is meaningless, pagan, self indulgent idolatry,appealing to flesh and not God’s spirit. God did not say of the baby ” this is my son, hear ye him” but this was spoken of the man Christ Jesus. I will never celebrate any holiday that seeks to minimize, or permanently encapsulate my Lord into perpetual infanthood, dishonoring all he did in life and above all what he did in his death.

  • shayne

    Rev 2:18, and to the angel of the church of Thyatira (which means perpetual or continual sacrifice) These things says the Son of GOD who has eyes like a flame of fire,&His feet like fine brass (are terms for judgement) I know your works, love, service, faith,&your patience;&as for your works, the last are more than your first.Nevertheless I have a few things against you,because you allow that woman Jezebel,who calls herself a prophetess,to teach&seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality&eat things sacrificed to idols.And i gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality,&she did not repent.
    Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed,&those who commit adultery with her into GREAT TRIBULATION, unless they repent of their deeds.I will kill her children with death&ALL the Churches shall know that I Am He who searches the minds &hearts.And I will give each one of you according to your works.Now to you I say,&to the rest in Thyatira, as many who do not have this doctrine,who have not known the depths of Satan,as they say, I will put on you no other burden.But holdfast what you have till I come.And he who overcomes,&keeps My works until the end,to him I will give power over the nations.’He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potters vessel’-as I also have received from My Father;”and I will give him the morning star.”He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ‘
    The destination:the destination in verse 18a is the church of Thyatira which means”continual or perpetual sacrifice. In the historic -prophetic interpretation it becomes fitting description of the church of the Dark Ages as embodied in the Roman Catholic doctrine of the continual sacrifice in the Mass.In Roman Catholic theology, when the priest consecrates the wafer&the cup, they are said to become yhe real body&the real blood of Jesus the Messiah through Transubstantiation,&so the Messiah is re-sacrificed.The laity were given the wafer&were refused the cup because of the belief that the real blood might be accidentally spilled.The cup was for the clergy alone.Thus, the distinction between the clergy&laity, begun by the Nicolatians, had been brought to fruition.The description of the Messiah is found in verse 18b &is taken from Revelation1:14-15.They are symbols of judgement.It is the Messiah who is the Son of GOD, and He alone is to be worshipped, theres is to be no addition whats so ever.In verse 19 they are commended for their works, love, faith, ministry&paitience,&that these works were increasing.They were characterized by good workd&so their external appearance was positive.Then comes a lengthy condemnation in verse 20-23.Their condemnation involves their tolerance of a woman named Jezebel.Conceivably there may have been a woman by that name in the local church at Thyatira, but this is highly unlikely.The name Jezebel is Phoenician name&by this time, the Phoenicians had disappeared as a separate ethnic identity&had become part of the Greek speaking world . furthermore Thyatira was not located in Phoenicia but in Asia minor, which is modern day Turkey.And so it is statements like this that lend credence to the historical-prophetical interpretation. Furthermore when a woman is used symbolically in Scripture she represents a religious entity.This might be either positive or negative.On the positive side there is Israel as the Wife of Yahweh&the Church as the Bride of the Messiah. On the negative side, there is the woman with leaven(Matt.13-33) the Great Harlot of Revelation 17,&here the woman Jezebel.This is most likely a reference to the Old Testament Jezebel to describe the state of the church in Thyatira, just as Balaam wad used in describing the state of the church of Pergamum.Jezebel was a Sidonian princess who became the wife of Ahab the King of Israel (1 Kings 16:29-33) She was responsible for introducing a pagan religion into Israel that surpassed all the previous sins of idolatry in the northern kingdom.Idolatry in the northern kingdom began with Jeroboam 1, who was first king.But there was a difference between the sins of Jeroboam&the sins of Baal worship introduced by Jezebel. The sins of Jeroboam were a corruption of the true religion.Jeroboam set up a golden calf in Dan&in Bethel, but these golden calves represented the GOD who brought them out of the land of Egypt.This was idolatry, but it was a corruption of the true Yahweh worship. (1Kings 12:25-33) Furthermore Jeroboam could cite a precedent in the worship of the golden calf built by Aaron.His words concerning the golden calf in 1 Kings 12:28 are a quotation of Aarons words in Exodus 32:4.With Jezebel it was not merely corruption of the true religion but a whole new god&system of worship were introduced in Israel (1Kings16:29-33) Through Jezebel, Baal worship came into the Land, resulting in more idolatry than ever before.Involved in the worship of Baal was sexual immorality.In the corruption of Yahweh worship, morality was still present, but in the worship of Baal, thete was total immorality.Jezebel thus became a very real picture of what the Roman Catholic Church evolved into during the period of the Dark Ages.It introduced a paganism that resulted in idolatry and spiritual fornication,&it became a new religious system bearing little resemblance to the New Testament church.
    It was during this period that 10 false doctrines were introduced into the church.First, justification by works, not simply by faith.Secondly, baptismal regeneration; that a person is saved by baptism.Thirdly the worship of images.Fourthly, celibacy; forbidding priests to marry, a further distinction between clergy&laity.Fifth, confessionalism; that sins are confessed to a priest who then declares absolution of those sins.Sixth, purgatory; a place of confinement which is neither Heaven or Hell, but a place where one has to be “refined”before going into Heaven, hence sanctification was not complete at death.Seventh, Transubstantiation; the concept of the continual & perpetual sacrifice of the Messiah. Eighth, indulgences; that through the giving of money, a persons time in purgatory could be reduced.Ninth, penance; involving the torment of the body in order to reduce one’s time in purgatory. And tenth, Mariolatry; the worship of the Virgin Mary, her elevation as the”mother of GOD”& the declaration of her deity.All this led to idolatry and spiritual fornication.Jezebel in Thyatira is the Roman Catholic Church within Christendom of the Dark Ages.
    In verse 22-23 there is a description of the judgement on Jezebel.In verse 22 the woman is to be cast into the great tribulation.This means that unlike the true Church, the Roman Catholic Church will go into The Great Tribulation&will play a role during that time.As part of her judgement the Roman Catholic Church will be cast into the Tribulation period.This is another example of a passage that simply cannot be limited to the local situation. If there really was a specific woman named Jezebel in Thyatira she would by now be long dead&therefore, would not be cast into the Great Tribulation. Yet the prophecy is very specific:she and her children will be cast into it.Only if Jezebel is representative of a system can this be true.And again when a woman is used symbolically, it symbolizes a religious system or entity.In verse 23, the children of Jezebel, that is, the adherents of the Roman Catholic Church will suffer physical violence&death as part of GOD’s judgement on Jezebel.The exhortation is found in verses 24-25.The exhortation involves those who are not part of the Jezebel system&do not know the deep things of Satan.The Roman Catholic Church must be viewed as Satans counterfeit, The exhortation is to those who are not involved in Satans counterfeit, they are told to hold fast to that which is pure.They are told to hold fast to the New Testament truth ad over against the Roman Catholic Church system.While this may not sound like a major obligation, in the context of the Dark Ages, it took tremendous spiritual courage&energy.Then in verse 26-29 there is the promise which is 2 fold.First the one overcoming will have apart in the Messianic Kingdom.In contrast to the false authority of the Roman Catholic Church, they will have true authority over the nations during the Messianic Kingdom. Secondly, they will have the morning star.Here, another figure is being used in the book of Revelation, but no speculation is needed.In Revelation 22:16, the Messiah Himself is declared to be the morning star.Thus they will possess the Messiah. The possession of the true faith presupposes a possession of the Person of the Messiah. GODbless

  • pax2u

    are Catholics allowed to post on this site?

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  • Kaitlyn Griffin

    Maybe he shouldn’t be deciding what Christians should and shouldn’t do. Stop giving this lunatic your money.

  • Gail Owens

    No Church has the monopoly on the truth. Gosh what a great way to win Roman Catholics, or anyone to Christ, Mean spirited nasty comments, The evangelical Church is riddled with false teaching. Where is the love of Christ in reaching these people?