‘Maybe the Grinch Had a Point’: Kirk Cameron’s ‘Saving Christmas’ Won’t Be Saved From Critics

Saving ChristmasKirk Cameron, who recently asserted that Christians should throw the ‘biggest party on the block’ for Halloween and that Santa Claus is actually a “defender of the faith,” is receiving mixed reviews for his new film “Saving Christmas,” including from critics who state that the actor is seeking to stamp out any opposition to his personal love for the holiday and its traditions.

Cameron, best known for his role as Mike Seaver on the 80’s TV sitcom “Growing Pains” and films such as “Fireproof” and “Left Behind,” released the film in theaters nationwide on Friday, in an hour and a half-long effort to convince viewers that some Christmas traditions aren’t so pagan after all and have a biblical basis for their observance.

As previously reported, in a video clip released last week entitled “Do You Love Santa Claus,” Cameron stated that “maybe someone like Santa Claus is actually on our team.” He then released a second video providing the history of the figure of Santa Claus, whom he characterized as a “devout Christian.”

“[T]hey even ‘sainted’ him—that’s why we call him St. Nicholas,” he said, although not mentioning that the “they” is the leadership of the Roman Catholic religion. “He became legendary in his time and beyond his time. He became larger than life and reached mythic proportions.”

Cameron told hundreds of students at Liberty University recently that the use of Santa Claus, who had developed from the person of St. Nicholas, was therefore not so bad after all.

“So the guy that many of us think is distracting from the birth of the Christ child, is really the defender of the faith you and I want to be,” he asserted. “So now that you know who the real Santa Claus is, you want to take a picture with him at the mall this Christmas? I do.”

The clip is included in Cameron’s “Saving Christmas” as well, during which actor Darren Doane plays Cameron’s brother-in-law Christian, who believes that Christmas traditions are pagan and often materialistic and should therefore be avoided. During the film, Cameron seeks to convert Christian over to his side, and eventually succeeds in doing so. Christian then slides into a pile of presents and hops up on Santa’s lap, since Cameron has now convinced him that such traditions were permissible for Bible-believing Christians.

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Reviewers who have watched the film have given it a mixed bag of reviews, with some stating that the best part of the movie is Cameron’s heart for the gospel.

“He knows how to transition average conversations into spiritual conversations that present the gospel,” wrote Carl Kerby of Apolomedia. “While the viewer may not agree with everything he has to say, he is certainly passionate about sharing his faith, and that is commendable.”

Jeff Totey of BeliefNet said that he found the film to be amusing.

“Kirk’s and Christian’s conversation is pretty entertaining to watch as Doane is actually very funny in his awkwardness,” he wrote. “Christian rants about one subject, Kirk addresses it and then they move on to the next.”

But others expressed concern about some of the assertions Cameron made in the movie, and the manner in which he sought to present his arguments.

“Cameron’s lectures reek of condescension,” wrote Chris Williams, movie reviewer for the Advisor and Source in Michigan. “Cameron poo-poos any of Christian’s concerns and utters a series of ‘here’s why you’re wrong’ declarations.”

“It ends not with a commitment to wisely consider the season, but with Christian belly-sliding into a pile of presents,” he continued. “Rather than agree that more Christmas money could go to the poor, Cameron literally says that materialism is perfectly fine, so long as you don’t max out the credit cards.”

Michael O’ Sullivan of the Washington Post made similar remarks.

“The one sales pitch that’s hardest to buy is Cameron’s insistence that there’s nothing wrong with the materialistic focus of Christmas,” he wrote in a review on Friday. “His characterization of Jesus as a ‘material’ gift to us from God—evidence, he claims, that God wants us to shop—should offend anyone who balks at placing the Christ Child on the same scale as a $25 gift card.”

Kerby, who found both good and concerning aspects in the film, said that he thought Cameron’s tone could have been better.

“As it is in the film, it comes across as condescending to the audience as if to say ‘Hey, there’re trees all over the Bible so everyone should love Christmas trees!'” he said. “It stretches a little further than Scripture itself reaches on this topic.”

“What are they going to do next?” Cameron asks in the film. “Tell us hot chocolate is bad? That the Druids invented it?”

Williams said that in the end, “Kirk Cameron hasn’t made a movie for Christians. He’s made a movie for Kirk Cameron.”

“He’s made a movie to say, ‘Stop complaining about something I like,'” he wrote in his review on Friday. “‘Saving Christmas’ is a self-indulgent mess that ignores legitimate concerns in favor of saying, ‘Don’t spoil my party.’ Instead of pausing for soul-searching or real discussion, it gives us a smarmy lecturer justifying his position and ignoring any complaints.”

“Cameron wants us to leave the theater ready to indulge in the biggest Christmas celebration ever,” Williams said. “I left thinking maybe the Grinch had a point.”

Christmas, being translated as “Christ’s mass,” was largely opposed by Christians in early America because of its Roman Catholic and pagan roots. In 1647, the English parliament not only passed a law banning Christmas, but also Easter, Whitsun and all of the special “saints” days instituted by the Catholic church. When the Puritans came to America, they did the same.

“When it can be proved that the observance of Christmas, Whitsuntide and other Popish festivals was ever instituted by a Divine statute, we also will attend to them, but not till then,” also declared well-known preacher of old, Charles Spurgeon, in 1871. “It is as much our duty to reject the traditions of men as to observe the ordinances of the Lord.”

“Tragically, we are living in a time when evangelicals are following popular personalities instead of Christ and His word,” Mike Gendron with Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network in regard to “Saving Christmas.” “Since the word of God is not being proclaimed faithfully from many pulpits, there is a lack of discernment in the pews. Since people are not hearing the truth, they cannot discern what is false.”


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  • http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/ ThrowbackChristianity.com

    I have not seen the movie yet and have only read the reviews. This one is good except for the ending:

    “Christmas, being translated as “Christ’s mass,” was largely opposed by Christians in early America because of its Roman Catholic and pagan roots. In 1647, the English parliament not only passed a law banning Christmas, but also Easter, Whitsun and all of the special “saints” days instituted by the Catholic church. When the Puritans came to America, they did the same.”

    “When it can be proved that the observance of Christmas, Whitsuntide and other Popish festivals was ever instituted by a Divine statute, we also will attend to them, but not till then,” also declared well-known preacher of old, Charles Spurgeon, in 1871. “It is as much our duty to reject the traditions of men as to observe the ordinances of the Lord.”

    While I understand these are quotes and may not reflect the views of your site or the author of this article, I believe that portion is inaccurate and should have been left out.

    Christmas was opposed by Christians in early America who also hung people as witches. I do not think that is a valid point and there is Scholarly evidence that Chrsitmas is not pagan. Some of the trimmings may be such as Santa and Yule Logs. And the word Christ Mass may be a Roman Catholic invention but the observance of the day itself is not pagan in origin, was in the early Church before the Roman Catholic Church emerged and these lies have been debunked by some very educated Scholars. Biblical Archeology has an excellent article explaining how Christmas is not pagan and is in fact Christian. It is in my opinion sad that Christian websites would publish such accusations.

    http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/christmas-pagans/

    http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/constantine-created-christmas/

    http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/

    http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v

    http://www.throwbackchristianity.com/constantine-created-christmas/

  • Neiman

    “While the viewer may not agree with everything he has to say, he is
    certainly passionate about sharing his faith, and that is commendable.”

    There is no question that Kirk has always stood up for his Christian faith and in the modern world, especially among public figures that is rare and highly commendable. To oppose his beliefs about Santa Claus and other Christmas traditions, is NOT the same as attacking him, hating him or being mean spirited. One can be united in their faith in Jesus and disagree passionately on various doctrines.

    I agree that much of modern Christmas traditions have pagan origins. I do not think the RCC calling Nicklaus a saint makes him one, nor does his gift giving save him or make him worthy of the degree of attention he is given at this time of year. The Catholic Church certainly has mixed the Christian faith with pagan rites and their motives were not, in my opinion, to bring glory to Christ. But, that is just my opinion.

    The problem here is that Santa Claus has, undeniably a much bigger role at the Christmas season than Jesus, for the most part our government has made the mention of Jesus almost everywhere to be un-American, while they have no problem with Santa Claus at al; and I am offended that people credit Santa Claus with bringing love and peace to the world, when Christ gave Himself as the greatest gift of Love that mankind has ever known and He deserves all the glory, not some ancient gift giving monk.

    Kirk seems like a fine young man, I have no reason to doubt his faith in Jesus as his savior; but, like so much of the Christian Church today he is ready to compromise and honor a mere man at the celebration of Jesus birth more than Jesus. Like the growing apostate Church, he is becoming lukewarm in his defense of the faith.

    • lorasinger

      Right, DON”T compromise. Convert to Judaism if you follow Jesus. By the way, lukewarm is good. Keeps people from fighting.

      • Neiman

        Jesus said that those Christians that are lukewarm He would reject. So, Jesus did not think in matters of faith being lukewarm was a good thing.

        Sure, convert to Judaism, live under the Law and suffer eternal separation from God, yeah, good plan. <- sarcasm intended. In fact, as we get close to Jesus return, a great many Jews will turn to Jesus as their promised Messiah and when He returns all of Israel will bow down and accept Him as their Messiah, so God tells us it will go the other way.

        • lorasinger

          Which Jesus? The man who would be speaking about Jews or Paul’s god man who would say anything his writers put in his mouth.

          Depends which God, the one indivisible God (without a kid) of the Jews (who the man Jesus believed in) or the triune god with a kid of Christians

          They will turn to a myth invented by Paul, Neiman. The failed messianic candidate is dead and will remain so.

          • Louis Cypher

            I don’t believe in deities…it’s just a superstition.

          • lorasinger

            I would suppose if such an entity existed, it would be in the form of all the natural laws of the universe. I can’t accept a Charlton Heston clone though.

    • patriot

      You again. Neiman the full time critic of the one holy apostolic Catholic Church.

      • Neiman

        If the Catholic Church comes up in stories posted or by comments of those posting, I will oppose their false teachings, but it is hardly a full time occupation.

        Calling the Catholic Church “holy” considering their many sins, like the Inquisition and persecution of non-Catholics over the many centuries is a more than a misnomer, it is a blatant lie. Further, the Roman Catholic Church has absolutely no connection to the church of the Apostolic times, other than using the name catholic, which only meant “universal,” and had no connection to Rome until 350-500 years after the Resurrection of Christ. Thus, Holy – Apostolic – Catholic are false descriptions of the Roman Catholic Church.

        • pax2u

          we Christians pray for you

          • Neiman

            “We Christians?” Are congratulations in order here and you finally left the pagan Catholic Church and its false prophet Pope and decided to become born again in Christ?

          • pax2u

            from you

            “Yet, it is clearly described and both Catholics and most Protestants believe in the Trinity,”

            so if the Catholic Church believes in the Trinity, and the Catholic Church is pagan

            then you now proclaim the Christian Trinity as Pagan

            wow

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            One thing has nothing to do with the other.

            If I said the Trinity was a pagan idea, then your idiotic linking might have some merit, but as I did not – your commenting being false, you only make yourself appear lacking in intelligence and honesty.

          • pax2u

            but Neiman!

            is the Catholic Church a false, anti Christ Church?

            Neiman, you can not agree with a Church that you say is Pagan, can you?

            but now you agree with the Catholic Church, WHAT? next you are going to say that Catholics believe in Jesus Christ

            oh, noes, who can you hate next?

          • Neiman

            You are a child, you love playing games.

            The Devil often mixes heavy portions of divine truth in with just enough lies to pervert God’s Word, which is how he beguiles souls through the Roman Catholic Church. That is what he did to Eve, he spoke divine truth with just a little twist and by it, all humanity was doomed to death. So, even though the Roman Catholic Church has mixed in many teachings directly from God’s Word with their pagan beliefs and lies, I can still agree with that portion that remains truth and reject all that is false.

            I do not agree with the Roman Catholic Church, I have only agreed when they use God’s Word like the “Trinity,” but it ends where it agrees with God and I spit out the rest of the filth they mix in.

            You are steeped in lies and sin: (a) I have ALWAYS said that individual Catholics that come to Salvation on God’s Ground of Salvation, which I have often defined from God’s Word, are Christians, albeit still in bondage to the gross errors and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. My opposition is to that false Church, not individuals that have been truly converted to Christ. (b) I have NEVER expressed any hatred of individual Catholics, only the grossly heretical, anti-Christ teachings of the false Roman Catholic Church.

          • pax2u

            Neiman if the Catholic Church is pagan you can not agree with the Catholic Church

            since the Catholic Church believes that Jesus Christ is God, that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World, that the Christian Trinity is the Father in Heaven, the Son Jesus Christ ,and the Holy Spirit, the you can not agree with that, because you have said that the Catholic Church is anti Christ and pagan

            I am not surprised that you have no denominational doctrine, and that your theology is to hate the Catholic Church

          • Neiman

            I already explained the differences between their pagan beliefs and how it is mixed in with divine Truth, being an unholy admixture. If you cannot understand, get someone to help you.

            I hate the false teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, I do not hate Catholics. Get that through your thick head.

          • pax2u

            sir, I will continue to pray for you and forgive you

            I am sorry that you are filled with hatred, and bigotry of Christians

            I realize that your lack of education reinforces your prejudices,

            May the Christian God Jesus Christ forgive you

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            When you act like a child, you should not be surprised when you are treated like a child. In transactional analysis, they teach that when we are acting like adults and the opposite person is acting like a child, there is no communication, so since we cannot make them grow up, the only hope of communicating with them is get down to their level and treat them like a child, which is what I do with you.

            No hate, no bigotry, that is just what you want to think whenever anyone opposes your beliefs. I venture to say I have more education and life experiences than yourself, so be careful.

          • pax2u

            you may hate me but I will pray and forgive you

          • Neiman

            That is why you are a child, no matter how many times one denies something to you, you pout and cry that you are hated because you did not get your way.

          • pax2u

            you can call me a Child, as I am a Child of God, and I will still forgive you

          • Neiman

            And Mary is your mother, right? And the Pope is Peter? And the saints anointed by your Pope help you? You eat Jesus literal body and drink His literal blood in the Eucharist? You may go to purgatory?

          • pax2u

            if you do not believe that Mary gave birth to Jesus in Bethlehem then that is your faith but not mine

            you can hate me and my faith, you can lie about me and my faith

            but I will continue to pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for you and ask you to pray for me

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            You just keep proving your childish nature.

          • pax2u

            and I will pray for you to the Christian God Jesus Christ

            if that is childish, then I am a child and my Father is in Heaven

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            Childish emotion, immaturity and it has nothing to do with whether you are a child of God, it speaks to your lack of maturity.

            Sorry, I do not celebrate any Mass at all, I am not a Catholic.

          • pax2u

            you can hate me and I will pray for you

          • pax2u

            my good friend Neiman

            I will be leaving for the night, I must prepare for the night as I will be at Church tomorrow, remember Church? where Christians worship our Lord, God, and personal Savior Jesus Christ in fellowship with other Christians.

            have a blessed night in this advent season, may our Christian God Jesus Christ hold you in the Palm of his hand, amen..

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            We are not friends, we are complete strangers.

            You mean you will be at Mass tomorrow and pray to Mary, right?

            Your pretense at piety does not change anything.

            Stop wishing me Merry Christmas, I do not celebrate Mass, I am not a Roman Catholic.

          • pax2u

            TOO bad that you are so unhappy at this advent season

            sorry but it is an anti Catholic lie, that Catholics pray to Mary
            I do not Worship Mary, I do honor Mary
            I ask Mary to pray for me, I ask you to pray for me

            and I will continue to pray for you

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            When you speak to Mary during prayer or ask her to pray for you, you are praying to Mary and you delude yourself by pretending otherwise. When you say, “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen” You are both praying to Mary and worshipping Mary, it is delusional to insist to the contrary.

            I am not unhappy, are you? Just don’t pray to Mary for me.

          • pax2u

            Please pray for me as I pray for you

            but I am not praying to you, you still are not God

            so at your Church today, what were your bible readings?

          • pax2u

            Matthew 22:36-40

            36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

            37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

          • Neiman

            I fail to see what point you were making.

            Before you use such passages you should understand how God defines Love, it has more than one bearing on the fact.

          • pax2u

            I want to share the Good News of Jesus Christ with you on this glorious day,

          • Neiman

            As I already know the Good News of the Gospel, maybe you would do better to share it with the lost.

          • pax2u

            Gospel Jn 1:6-8, 19-28

            A man named John was sent from God.
            He came for testimony, to testify to the light,
            so that all might believe through him.
            He was not the light,
            but came to testify to the light.

            And this is the testimony of John.
            When the Jews from Jerusalem sent priests
            and Levites to him
            to ask him, “Who are you?”
            He admitted and did not deny it,
            but admitted, “I am not the Christ.”
            So they asked him,
            “What are you then? Are you Elijah?”
            And he said, “I am not.”
            “Are you the Prophet?”
            He answered, “No.”
            So they said to him,
            “Who are you, so we can give an answer to those who sent us?
            What do you have to say for yourself?”
            He said:
            “I am the voice of one crying out in the desert,
            ‘make straight the way of the Lord,’”
            as Isaiah the prophet said.”
            Some Pharisees were also sent.
            They asked him,
            “Why then do you baptize
            if you are not the Christ or Elijah or the Prophet?”
            John answered them,
            “I baptize with water;
            but there is one among you whom you do not recognize,
            the one who is coming after me,
            whose sandal strap I am not worthy to untie.”
            This happened in Bethany across the Jordan,
            where John was baptizing.

          • Neiman

            What point were you trying to make and failed to make?

          • pax2u

            Reading 2 1 Thes 5:16-24

            Brothers and sisters:
            Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing.
            In all circumstances give thanks,
            for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.
            Do not quench the Spirit.
            Do not despise prophetic utterances.
            Test everything; retain what is good.
            Refrain from every kind of evil.

            May the God of peace make you perfectly holy
            and may you entirely, spirit, soul, and body,
            be preserved blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
            The one who calls you is faithful,
            and he will also accomplish it.

          • pax2u

            Responsorial Psalm Lk 1:46-48, 49-50, 53-54

            R/ (Is 61:10b) My soul rejoices in my God.
            My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
            my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
            for he has looked upon his lowly servant.
            From this day all generations will call me blessed:
            R/ My soul rejoices in my God.
            the Almighty has done great things for me,
            and holy is his Name.
            He has mercy on those who fear him
            in every generation.
            R/ My soul rejoices in my God.
            He has filled the hungry with good things,
            and the rich he has sent away empty.
            He has come to the help of his servant Israel
            for he has remembered his promise of mercy,
            R/ My soul rejoices in my God.

          • pax2u

            Reading 1 Is 61:1-2a, 10-11

            The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me,
            because the LORD has anointed me;
            he has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor,
            to heal the brokenhearted,
            to proclaim liberty to the captives
            and release to the prisoners,
            to announce a year of favor from the LORD
            and a day of vindication by our God.

            I rejoice heartily in the LORD,
            in my God is the joy of my soul;
            for he has clothed me with a robe of salvation
            and wrapped me in a mantle of justice,
            like a bridegroom adorned with a diadem,
            like a bride bedecked with her jewels.
            As the earth brings forth its plants,
            and a garden makes its growth spring up,
            so will the Lord GOD make justice and praise
            spring up before all the nations.

          • pax2u

            since you have no denomination, I wanted to share with you this day’s Bible readings that are being shared through out the world today

          • Neiman

            Why do you have such a hang up on Christians having to join, be members of and be part of a denomination? Where do we find that in God’s Word, where does the Lord tell us that we cannot be Christians unless we belong to a man-organized and man-ruled religious organization? Where does He say we must only have fellowship with just one such organization?

            As I read the Bible daily, several times throughout the day, meditating upon all of His Word, why do you assume I need these particular passages that are chosen by your Church to be read this day? Are these passage being shared by every denomination or are you saying in Roman Catholic Churches today throughout the world? Even if they are being shared by your church, why would it be wrong for other groups to share other passages today and for other groups to share other messages from God’s Word? Are you not being terribly presumptuous and only promoting Roman Catholicism’s dogma?

          • pax2u

            I wanted to share the Bible readings of my Church today

            please post the Bible of your Church today, thank you

          • Neiman

            You do what you want to do and I will do what I want to do.

          • pax2u

            did your Church not read from the Bible this glorious day?

          • Neiman

            Did you pray to Mary today? Did you pray the Rosary? Did you eat Jesus literal flesh and drink His literal blood today?

          • pax2u

            no, I do not Pray to Mary, I ask you to pray for me, but I am not praying TO you, sorry but you are not God

            did your Church read from the Bible today?

          • pax2u

            Luke 22

            18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.…

            sad that you deny the Bible, the word of God

            no wonder that you have no Christian denomination

          • Neiman

            I am tired of your lies and false accusations absent any proofs. Either make a rational argument or go away.

            Did you see the word “remembrance,” it means in memory of, to recall His sacrifice, it says nothing about your Eucharistic cannibalism.

            I have answered the denomination lie so many times and your just repeating your tired old lines is a waste of my time.

          • pax2u

            is it a false accusation that you enjoyed Christian fellowship at your Church this glorious day?

            what were the Bible readings at your Church this glorious Sunday?

          • pax2u

            so you do not have fellowship with Christians?

            I am so sorry, but I do understand why you are alone

          • pax2u

            you have said that my Church is pagan and anti Christ
            I posted to you from my Church today’s
            Old Testament reading
            New Testament reading
            Psalm reading
            and Gospel reading

            I asked you to post the readings from your Christian Church, and you post nothing

          • Neiman

            I have answered this many, many times and I am tired of your repeating something you know to be false.

          • pax2u

            do they read the Bible in your Church?

          • pax2u

            did they read the Bible this morning in your Church?

          • pax2u

            sorry, I thought that you were a Christian

          • pax2u

            I provide the Bible readings from my Church and you say this

            ” you often are, in league with the Devil.”

            and this

            “the pagan Catholic Church and its false prophet Pope”

            so you call my Church pagan, and I provide you with today’s Bible readings

            did your Church read from the Bible today?

          • Neiman

            Please don’t be surprised when I delete and do not respond to most of your replies in the future. I don’t have time for games. You keep making the same false charges, the same denials and seem unable to defend your positions.

            For instance, when I say you pray to Mary and worship her and give evidence and make an argument, a reply of just no you don’t is not an argument. You need to amplify and say exactly why it is not prayer or worship because of this or that, giving rational reasons. But just repeated denials are a waste of my time.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that you are alone with out Christian fellowship, no church, no denomination, just you alone, hating everyone else,

            I will continue to pray for you

            have a Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            You know nothing about me, you are as usual, playing games like a child. I have answered these questions and false charges of yours many, many times. What do you think you accomplish by repeating lies and false charges and making false assumptions? Can’t you read my many answers? Why should I submit to your childish repeated questions and false charges?

            This is an admonition for you from the Lord, from His Word, you would do well to heed His counsel.

            ” 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things” I Corinthians 13

            You desperately need to grow up, put away childish things, to become a mature man of God. “Verse 11. – I understood as a child, I thought as a child; I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things; now that I am become a man, I have done away with childish things.”
            No specific time at which he put away childish things is alluded to,
            but he means that “manhood” is a state in which childishness should have become impossible. ” Pulpit Commentary

            Assuming you came to salvation by grace alone, by faith alone – which faith is also a gift of His Grace, that faith in Christ alone as your Savior and Lord; and, despite the many false teachings and terrible bondage of the Roman Catholic Church, if you are truly converted from idols, born again of His Spirit, you need to ask God to give you the full infilling of His Spirit and the Gift of Divine Wisdom, unless you are to remain a child all your life.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            …child…childish…child…childish…child…childish… Neiman, you need a new line of name-calling. The infantilization one is getting a bit stale.

          • Neiman

            So do I hear marriage bells between you and pax2u? You chase and defend him like a love sick puppy. Or, is it just your demonic hatred for me that inspires your obsession with me?

            When your love child just keeps repeating accusations I have already answered multiple times, keeps advancing the same lies and never mounts any rational arguments, it is proof of immaturity.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, but it is very interesting to see how you respond with insults rather than deal with arguments every time I say something to you.

          • Neiman

            That is because I see you as an enemy of Christ and the Church, a malicious, angry, hate filled little man that despite his denials, is a defender of the Roman Catholic Church, probably a Catholic Priest. You do not engage in civil debate, not ever and I have no reason to treat you with any respect.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            When have I called you a child, childish, love child, evil, the devil, malicious, angry, 5 year old, complete moron, a child with attention deficit disorder, and enemy of Christ and the Church, etc.? Look in the mirror and ask who you should be accusing of not engaging in civil debate.

          • Neiman

            You better look in that mirror yourself.

            I have defended every such word and they why apply because neither of you intelligently defend your beliefs or oppose mine by careful Scriptural exegesis, So, I am left with the inescapable conclusion that you are both terribly immature, intellectually handicapped and dishonest.

            Honest differences of opinion based on facts, even when the other side rejects those facts is fine, get the game on. But, the way both of you reply has absolutely no similarity to honest debate.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Defend it by careful Scriptural exegesis only to have you say “nuh uh, it doesn’t say that” and then you re-interpret it to fit the presuppositions that you hold. I know how this game works when fundamentalists play it. They think that they are pulling a fast one when they do this and deny right and left that they are making an interpretation.

          • Neiman

            Any good Berean Christian studies the word to show themselves approved, to know the Truth.

            Every key doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is constructed a false interpretations of scripture.

            It is not a game, unless you can use God’s Word to clearly defend your beliefs, you should not have those beliefs.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Predictably, you launch right into an anti-Catholic screed without addressing the specific problems I brought up. This is a very troublesome and disingenuous problem among fundamentalists when they discuss things.

          • pax2u

            I would say that Neiman is alone but he has Gary who does not see anything wrong with the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church protesting at the funerals of Soldiers who died for America

          • pax2u

            poor angry Neiman,
            he says that the Catholic Church is false and pagan
            I provided him today’s Bible readings and asked him to post the Bible readings from his Church, wow, did he become nasty when I asked that

            If you want to see the true Christian love of Nieman

            wish him a Merry Christmass, and the real scrooge will be displayed

          • pax2u

            we pray for you with Christian love

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            Well good for you, tell your priest, hopefully he is not one of the child molesters among the priesthood and he may give you a gold star.

            I am not a Catholic, I do not attend Mass, at this season of the year or any other.

          • pax2u

            sad that you are alone Neiman, do you yell at the neighborhood kids that walk on your lawn?

            Merry Christmass to you

          • pax2u

            you say that my Church is pagan and false
            I provided you the Bible readings from my Church today
            I asked you to provide the Bible readings from your church today
            and you can not provide any Bible readings from your church
            I am sorry that your church does not read the Bible

          • Neiman

            I have absolutely no obligation to play your games. If you want to copy/paste passages, fine that is your choice. If I choose not to play dueling passages, that is my right.

            I am tired of telling you that your church does use scripture, but they are all twisted into lies by other Catholic teachings which make a lie out of the very passages you quote. It is the false teachings, the other parts of your Church that I oppose and call pagan in origin. I gave you an example from Genesis, but you always refuse to counter the passages I offer or discuss the issue, you just play games.

          • pax2u

            but your church does not use the Bible? is that why you can not provide the Bible readings from your church today?

          • Neiman

            You sir are a most damnable liar! I never said my church does not use the Bible, far from it. I only refused to play your game and submit to your demand that I supply the passages.

          • pax2u

            so your church did not read from the Bible today

          • Neiman

            Your father Satan is proud of your lies!

          • pax2u

            I forgive you and pray for your soul
            Merry Christmass

          • pax2u

            I suppose that the Bible reading did not make much of an impression on you, or you were not paying attention for you not to be able to cite it

          • Neiman

            You are so obtuse as to indicate you have serious mental processing problems. I said I will not play your game, there is no reason for me to submit to your demand I offer those passages. You need help!

          • pax2u

            I understand why you do not have a church

            Merry Christmass

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Says the person who thinks he is entirely justified in cutting-and-pasting pages upon pages of replies from internet apologetics sites rather than demonstrating that he has any understanding of what is being talked about except at an elementary, surface level. Hypocrisy?

          • Neiman

            Says the hate filled, thoroughly dishonest Catholic apologist.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I do not see that you have denied either one of these things. Also, you are only calling me Roman Catholic, even after all of the things I told you that I disagree with it on, because you do not like me and do not have answers for the questions I ask you.

          • Neiman

            I am losing patience with your multiple posts and your lies.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, you are rhetorically reconfiguring everything I say to make it appear as if you are a victim or a martyr of the big, bad, meanie Catholic Inquisition. The fact remains, I am not Roman Catholic, you are not being persecuted, and I have not lied to you or about you.

            You simply cannot engage in theological discussion or apologetics without flying off the handle into some kind of emotionally-triggered meltdown and loss of all coherent replies except for cut-and-pastes and playground name-calling.

          • Neiman

            Okay, I am tired of your ugly attacks and multiple posts today, my patience with you is ended. I will delete all your incoming posts.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            If it makes you feel better, go ahead. The fact remains that everyone can see in public posts how you have refused to address the specifics of my replies, are disingenuous in your misrepresentations of others solely because you perceive them to be “Catholic,” and routinely portray yourself as a persecuted victim, all the while denigrating others in a very uncharitable, unchristlike manner because you cannot deal with arguments.

          • pax2u

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            That is very unchristian of you, deliberately offending me by wishing me a merry catholic mass when I am not a Catholic and have asked you to stop.

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you and pray that you do not harm another with your hatred and rage against Christians

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            Still going out of your way to offend me . Would Jesus act like that? Yes the Catholic Jesus would, remember the inquisitions and its persecution of all non-catholic Christians. Yes, you are acting just like an Inquisition era Catholic.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You still play the Inquisition Card even after I said holding yourself up to be a victim and a martyr of some imagined Christian News Network Catholic Inquisition is ludicrous!

          • pax2u

            I am concerned about you anger and hostility to Christians who post here,

            The Protestant KKK hates blacks, Jews and Catholics should I compare you are acting like a Protestant Klansman

          • pax2u

            your ignorance knows no bounds, do you know the difference between the Eastern Orthodox, and the Catholic Church? which I am of the Latin Rite

          • Neiman

            They both claim to be Catholic and share many of the same traditions and beliefs. One is the Roman Catholic Church of which you are a card carrying member. The Eastern is Grecian and the Russian – Russian.

          • pax2u

            your ignorance knows no bounds

            I will continue to pray for your eternal soul

            Merry Christmass

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What in the world is “Grecian” and “Russian – Russian?”

          • pax2u

            are you as hostile to the Eastern Orthodox as you are to the Catholic Church?

            I am a Catholic of the Latin rite, if you want to be specific who who’s faith you want to attack, feel free to attack mine and I will forgive just the same

          • pax2u

            poor sad, angry and bigoted Neiman, he is afraid of the love of God,

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is a shame. It seems he has really gone off the deep end now. I was looking forward to resolving all of this manufactured rage and righteous indignation and get down to discussing real history and biblical exegesis.

          • pax2u

            I pray for him, and pray that he will not harm anyone near him with his hatred and rage of Christians

            take care and Peace to you , good night

          • pax2u

            If I respond to your lies I only give credit to your hatred of Christians

            Did you attend a Christian Church service today?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Forsaking the assembly of believers is a pretty serious transgression. Are you trying to justify the practice of lonewolf Christianity?

          • Neiman

            Let me get down to your intellectual level: “Little Magister, just because a person is not a member of a Christian group – it does not mean he does not join with other Christians in 2 or more groups to worship God together, now does it?” “See little Magister, when you grow up you will read all the words a person writes, learn about thing we call diagramming a sentence and then you will stop making a fool of yourself.”

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            There are the insults against someone’s intellectual and educational levels. If you do not want people getting the wrong impression, perhaps you should explain yourself more thoroughly and succinctly. The comment to which I replied has the same type of legitimizing rhetoric that lonewolves who forsake the assembly use.

          • Neiman

            Show me where Jesus or the Apostles demanded or even spoke of denominational membership in order for one to be a Christian. What denomination did the Apostles belong to, don’t say the Roman Catholic Church, it did not exist. What of Paul that went from town to down, local church group to local church group, was he a lone wolf? Why does it require forsaking a local assembly if one chooses not to be a member of any particular one?

            See you just make wild charges and play games, but never defend yourself by Scripture.

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Neiman

            I have many times replied to the lying interpretation of this passage by the Roman Catholic Church. I am not going to dance to your ture and keep repeating my evidences against this lie by your church.

          • pax2u

            I only posted scripture of the Bible

            now you call scripture of the Bible lies?

            poor sad Neiman, all alone

          • Neiman

            This is why I call you as liar, a child and doubt your ability to read.

            I said the interpretation of that passage by your church was a lie, NOT the actual passage. I never called any scripture a lie. You are a terribly dishonest person.

          • pax2u

            I post scripture only, no interpretation, and you say that I am a liar

            I would say that you are alone, but you have a kindred spirit with Gary who does not see anything wrong with the fred phelps westboro baptist church protesting the funerals of soldiers who died for America

            I pray for your sad and angry soul

            Merry Christmass

          • Neiman

            Are you really that stupid? Are you just an habitual liar? Or are you mentally ill? Or, is it a demon? Those are the only choices.

            You lied when you said I “call Scripture of the Bible lies.” That is so dishonest, you sir need professional help. I said twice, now three times that it was the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of the passage that was the lie. If you repeat that false charge one more time, we are done. I am sick of your lies!

            More lies, I have never said anything – not the most remote thing that has ever even hinted at any support of any kind for the Westboro Baptist Church. You are having a terrible time ever speaking the truth. Do you know who is the author of all lies? Satan. Do you know who is the father of all liars? Satan.

          • pax2u

            so much anger, I pray for you
            Merry Christmas

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Neiman

            Just repeating this single passage without any support from other passages or any defense, proves nothing. It is subject to interpretation. Most Christians view this as Jesus saying that the Rock is Jesus, it is Jesus not Peter that will build His Church, the Church is Jesus. Jesus said that the Body of Christ is the Church.

            I encourage you go to this link for more scripture based information:

            “There are problems with the Roman Catholic position. First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18, we see something that is not obvious in the English. ” . . . you are
            Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build
            My church . . . ” In Greek nouns have gender. It is similar to the
            English words actor and actress. The first is masculine, and the
            second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word “petros” is masculine; “petra” is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock he would build his church on was not the masculine “petros” but the feminine “petra.” Let me illustrate by using the words “actor” and “actress:” “You are the actor; and with this actress, I will make my movie.” Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?

            The feminine “petra” occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:

            Matt. 16:18, “And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.”

            Matt. 27:60, “and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.”

            1 Cor. 10:4, “and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ.”

            1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is “A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.”

            We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular; “petras” in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular) we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4; 1 Pet. 2:8). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn’t we?”

            http://carm.org/is-peter-the-rock

            Now refute this argument by scripture!

          • pax2u

            I have only posted scripture, If you have a problem with it, is is not my concern

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL… I really would like to see how you conduct theological discussions in every day life. Do you treat people this same way? If so, how have you gotten out of discussions without people hauling off and slugging you?

            If it is your family that discusses things with you, and they dare to disagree, it must be an absolutely miserable and depressing home life they have.

          • Neiman

            Now who is deliberately being offensive? Look in the mirror, it is you.

            This is a remote debate format, it is wholly different than one-on-one interactions in life. No one, not even you would ever slug me or dare to haul me off.

            You are a judgmental and thoroughly evil human being, absent any decency, obsessed with me and unable to debate and discuss issue civilly.

            I do not need to defend my life to you. I have a close, loving family, mostly all serving Christ. I almost never get into such discussions in daily life and when I do, it is with love, mutual respect and I have ministered to people in all walks of life.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is arguable that you only do not get into those kinds of discussions with family and perhaps friends because they are not Roman Catholic or some other denomination you hate with equal vigor. God help them if any of them are or think of converting!

          • Neiman

            Actually some members of my family are Catholic, my late mother was a Catholic in her youth. I do not hate anyone, not even you though God knows you deserve it by your seething hatred of me. I do not hate Catholics, I hate their false teachings which dishonor Christ and lead souls away from salvation by grace.

            You are attacking my family and I do not envy your family living with such a strutting egoist and hater like you.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Oh to be a fly on the wall when you have a similar type of conversation with Catholic family or friends. Also, please don’t project onto me with this “seething hatred” melodramatics. I would give you a cup of water and the shirt off my back without question despite our theological disagreements.

          • Neiman

            Prove it!

            Projection? No! You are a hater, a man obsessed with me to the point of mental illness.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Give me more information and perhaps I can “prove it.” There you go again denigrating people by calling them “hater” and referring to what you perceive to be their mental status.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Hebrews 10:23-25

            23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

          • Neiman

            Where is the word “denomination” or “membership?” Neither these words nor anything like them exist, do they? No, you won’t answer, honesty is not your thing.

            Where does assembling together even demand being inside a church building or being part of an organized assembly? Didn’t the first Christians gather together mostly in homes or in groups outside? Peter first met with the first Christians on a porch of the temple, which was exposed to the elements.

            So, you utterly failed to prove that God requires denominational membership. You failed to show in whicht denomination Peter held official membership. You failed to prove which church Paul was a member of, other than the Body of Christ. You are free to try again.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            And, just as I predicted, you immediately blurt out “nuh uh, it doesn’t say that” and then proceed to re-interpret it according to your own presuppositions. I never said anything about “denomination;” that was your word in the attempt to set up a strawman definition to knock down. I said “assembly” and “assembly of believers.”

          • Neiman

            Where is your proof I do not assemble with others?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I have only gone by the information you have provided. Thus far that has been to denigrate the concept of denominations as a whole, as well as to cast aspersions on the biblical mandate to assemble with believers. If you can give me more information, I will refine my understanding of what you think.

          • pax2u

            poor Neiman, a church of just him and his bathroom mirror

            the grinch that stole Christmass

          • pax2u

            are you quoting yourself now?

            is it to funny, or two funny or TOO funny

          • pax2u

            do not allow your hatred of my faith to consume your soul

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that you believe that forgiveness is childish,

            I will pray for you

          • Neiman

            See there is more proof of your childish nature, I never said forgiveness is childish, I said you are acting like a child and you are.

          • pax2u

            I am a Child and my heavenly Father is my God

            and I forgive you

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “No hate, no bigotry, that is just what you want to think whenever anyone opposes your beliefs. I venture to say I have more education and life experiences than yourself, so be careful.”

            What else could this be but stone cold projection on your part? Wow!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            When the pseudo-historical association fallacies don’t work, call your opponent a “child” and “thick headed.”

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What about when you have consistently referred to Catholics and those whom you perceive to be Catholic as “5 year olds,” “complete morons,” and having “attention deficit disorder” and other mental afflictions? That sounds rather hateful to me.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            How patronizing.

  • Gabriel A. King

    Cameron’s a great guy setting a good example. And I for one am not going to let anybody turn my CHRISTmas into a “winter break”…..

    • lorasinger

      I guess it couldn’t be “Winter Solstice” like it was for a couple of thousand years before Christianity hijacked it. Didn’t think so. Just close your eyes tight and squeal “MINE!” That’s the boy.

      • Gabriel A. King

        God created ALL days, including the “yule” you celebrate without honoring Jesus. Think about that next time your practicing witchcraft and timing your astrology orgies dancing around the fire like idiots…..

        • lorasinger

          I don’t know who or what created everything and neither do you. You have the myths of an ancient people and your myth is only one of many, including Wicca (which I don’t practice) any more than any of the other things your wild imagination has listed. Think about this the next time YOU take communion. Eating/drinking the blood of a god is PAGAN and your very own bible forbids it. It’s one of the verses you conveniently forget to cherry pick.

          • Gabriel A. King

            First of all- Jesus never called it “communion”. He simply took the bread and wine of the last supper, as a symbolic remembrance of the sacrifice of his holy blood and body for our sins.
            You have CONCLUDED that Christ is a myth? Ok. You will have the opportunity to tell him that to his face.

          • lorasinger

            1 Cor 11:23-29 (written by Paul)
            ……. that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in myblood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
            .
            Jesus
            was a Jew who said: Matthew 5:17“Think not that I am come to destroy the law,or the prophets: .
            .
            The law is the Torah. What does the Torah say about drinking blood?
            .
            “Only flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” (Gen. 9:4)
            .
            Similar statements are made in Leviticus 19:26,
            17:10,12 and Deuteronomy 12:16,23,25, and 15:23. The Torah identifies blood with life: “…for the blood is the life” (Deut. 12:23). Life must already have departed from the animal before it can be eaten.
            .
            It is an impossible story that a practicing Jew, who states that he upholds the law (Torah) who knows fully well that drinking blood is forbidden should
            ask his followers, also practicing Jews to drink his blood, much less resort to eating his flesh which is tantamount to cannibalism.

          • lorasinger

            A fully human Jewish male may have been executed by Romans for sedition, died and remains dead. Paul’s man god, however, lives on only in your mind.

          • lorasinger

            This is an afterthought, Gabe,

            Inscription to Mithras – “He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be made one with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation.” —

            John 6:53–56
            – Then Jesus said unto them,
            Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

  • http://www.sunnyshell.org Sunny Shell

    Good article. This is exactly what I’ve been trying to warn people about for weeks. This film is in direct violation of Romans 14, twists and mangles Scripture, reconstructs history and encourages gluttony. There is certainly no Christ in this movie…just Kirk.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      Love that bit about the material Christ and materialism. You think he was trying to do some bad version of Ecclesiastes 7:15-18?

      • lorasinger

        Nah, Ecclesiastes is Jewish. Old covenant. Nothing to do with Christians.

  • Arrie

    Who knows – maybe it is time for Christians to reclaim Christmas back as a Christ centred celebration, for Christ and about Christ.
    I’ll be trying to kick fat Santa out of my home this “season” and celebrate Christ and the love of YHVH for us silly humun kinds, even though I believe we must frustrate Him so much with our rubbish. His love is just so humongous, it’s barely comprehendible.
    Let’s dance for Him today! I’m going to raise my hands to my Father in heaven, and just glorify Him for His love for me.
    Let’s dance!

    • lorasinger

      Excellent. You celebrate your way and I’ll celebrate mine. Good to meet someone who is tolerant.

  • Aaron David

    Kirk is a tool and a whore. Director/writer.Co-star Darren Doane makes SATANIC death metal videos. It’s basically his career, he has made dozens. What is Kirk? He is partnered with the witches at TBN, and they serve Rome. Now he wants everyone to enjoy the Roman MASS and ignore the facts? Right as top evangelicals like Copeland and Warren are selling their flocks out to the Whore? Hmm, convenient timing.
    If Kirk isn’t a Jesuit he sure should be. I mean, he’s the face of that stupid apostate Left Behind garbage, too. Remember?
    Wipe that stupid grin off of your face and repent, Kirk, before God wipes it off for you.

    • patriot

      Boy you are all kinds of stupid.

  • http://www.OpenAirSeattle.blogspot.com/ OpenAirSeattle

    Question: Will a person “Go To HELL” for acknowledging the birth of Christ at this time of the year?

    • Katee Ripid

      Good question

      • http://www.OpenAirSeattle.blogspot.com/ OpenAirSeattle

        Why is it wrong?

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      Yes.

      • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

        Just kidding.

      • http://www.OpenAirSeattle.blogspot.com/ OpenAirSeattle

        Why?

        • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

          I was only kidding. Sometimes it’s fun to play a knee-jerk reaction.

  • smbelow

    Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

    This is were scripture meets the road, so to speak. There are many videos that I’ve watched where Cameron’s message was in harmony with scripture. Messages that contain hope, affirmation and even some conviction; never self serving from the speaker and always supported by scripture–God’s word, not man’s. However, this bit of gossip floating around the internet-sphere is a perfect example of why we should NEVER focus our attention on the man.

    Thus, the way I see this matter: Mr. Cameron, for what ever reason, has left the scriptural reservation and compromised It’s integrity. By continually studying myself to be worthy–a daily endeavor with many battles–I’m able to brush this nonsensical information off and see it for what it is. And although, I will be spending time with family during the holidays, with the Grace of God, I will not behave or present myself in any way which would send mixed messages of where I stand (1Co 8:13).

    • lorasinger

      Seems to me that Jesus called himself “son of man” which in Aramaic means “human being” which is a man, smb.

      • Neiman

        Jesus was as to His human Nature/flesh, fully a man; but, as to the Spirit within, where only is life eternal, He was is and always shall be Almighty God. I am sorry and do not wish to be rude but it appears as if you are ignorant of what Scripture teaches about the nature and being of Jesus

        • lorasinger

          Explain: Touch me not for I have not yet arisen to MY father and YOUR father, MY God and YOUR God, Neiman.

          • Neiman

            It would be highly presumptuous of me, when Christian scholars have pondered Jesus words for 2000 years and yet could offer no absolute, no definite answer to suggest I have the answer. It has been generally agreed that Jesus was telling Mary ‘not to hold on to him,’ so as not to delay him ascending to the Father, wherein, as the resurrected Lord he would be fully glorified, before he made his first appearance to his disciples. Because of her previous kissing of Jesus feet and holding on to him, it is also been thought that it was not that he could not be touched, but that she was again at his feet and hindering his departure. It is further thought that he did not want her to delay in announcing the good news of his resurrection to his disciples, it would not be unreasonable to think he was saying quickly let go and go to the disciples as He wanted them to share her joy in this good news.

            When by the grace of God we have been blessed with His Spirit and have in His presence been overcome by His divine love and our passions have been stirred by our love of Him, any thought of leave leaving his presence hinders are getting up and being about His business, it often requires the Lord to say let go and share my glory with my children and the lost.

            That is the best I can offer at this time, as I said I don’t want to presume to possess absolute knowledge about something Holy Spirit filled Christian scholars have debated for centuries. If I have in any way answered your question – fine, if not, I hope you’ll forgive my shortcomings.

          • lorasinger

            In other words, according to the Jewish concept (Jesus a
            was born and died a Jew who believed that God was one and indivisible ) Jesus was not God.

          • Neiman

            Read John One – it and other verses make it clear Jesus was/is and always shall be Almighty God, Isaiah also calling Him the everlasting Father, the Holy Spirit telling us Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal to God, the Jews crucified Him for claiming to be God, others that say all things were created by and for Him, others that He had no beginning and no end. Jesus is Almighty God the Son, one in Nature and Purpose with the Father and the Spirit.

            The Jews rejected Jesus, even though He fulfilled prophecy about being their Messiah and thank God, because of their rejection, salvation was offered to the whole world.

          • lorasinger

            John was written 60-80 years after the fact. The anonymous author of “John” was not an eyewitness, a Christian convert. Internal evidence shows that the writer was not John the apostle, nor an eye witness and all that book is, is a documentation of the end of a telephone game which as you should know, after about the 5th retelling is nothing like the original story.

            No Jesus didn’t fulfill even one prophecy about a messiah. You’ve been told that he did but you don’t even know what those prophecies were. There is no world peace. The temple hasn’t been rebuilt. The diaspora haven’t returned. The word hasn’t been converted to Judaism. And all this was to be done during his lifetime, but he failed and so he was dismissed as a failed messiah.

            Salvation “was offered to the whole world” by Paul and his invented man-god, Neiman. The man Jesus had nothing to do with Christianity.

  • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

    On one hand, no one should worship Mammon or a dead fat guy in a red suit.

    On the other hand, he’s dead, he wasn’t fat, and didn’t wear red. The fact that we celebrate the jolly guy invented sometime between WWI and WWII, and not the Pope’s mass, makes this holiday no longer a Roman Catholic holy day but a celebration of Americana – Coca-Cola, Bing Crosby (why else would we listen?), maxed out cards, making your children, your peers, and some homeless people happy and full when they see the cool gifts and dinners you brought.

    Really, aren’t we all just trying to live out the scenes from Norman Rockwell paintings?

    I definitely think that Kirk has put out a movie for Kirk… unless he’s donating all his profits to charity…? I don’t think so either.

    But that is what these guys do. They find themselves a little niche in a market, and if they can think of something to say they write a book about it, or make a movie, or DVD sets, or tour campuses and speak.

    But PLEASE
    for
    once
    let’s be honest as Christians.
    Jesus is not the reason for the season. Nobody believes it.

    If he were we should anticipate every Sunday with as much willingness to give as much as we have willingness to spend on Black Friday.

  • Mia Adams

    So…now they finish off anything that has to do with Christianity. I believe, Jesus, My Lord and Savior was born during the Feast of Tabernacles and the Wise Men arrived a few months later to lavish their gifts due to His birth not His 12/25 birthday. When Mary and John fled Israel, they traveled to Greece and were helped by a man named Nicolas (not the same man, who was Sainted by the Catholic Church and turn into the money-making jolly, red suited, fat pedophile from the North Pole). The true Nicolas, a friend of John’s family, heard the story, from John and Mary, of the greatest gift given to mankind, eternal life by the first fruits, Jesus, the Christ, and he wanted to give gifts to his loved ones to celebrate this wonder. So this tradition spread but was perverted as is almost everything to do with the True Church, the Bride of Christ. I, too, think that the day and Xmas or Christmas and the Red Suited Man take away from the true meaning but that has always been the “way of the world” to discredit the True Messiah and put a replacement and idol for the masses to worship instead! All honor and glory to You,Yeshua, the Christ, the only begotten and beloved Son of My Father Yahweh!

    • lorasinger

      The true Nicolas, a friend of John’s family, heard the story, from John and Mary, of the greatest gift given to mankind, eternal life by the first fruits, Jesus, the Christ, and he wanted to give gifts to his loved ones to celebrate this wonder

      …..

      THAT is an urban legend in the church. John lived in the second century, Mia. ” Sinder Klaus first appears in print as the nameless servant of Saint Nicholas in Sint Nikolaas en zijn knecht (St. Nicholas and His Servant), published in 1850 by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman; but the tradition appears to date back at least as far as the early 19th Century.”
      Now stop making up things. People will believe them.

      • Mia Adams

        Typical Catholic response…yawn!!

        • lorasinger

          I’m not a Catholic, Mia. What I’ve posted is history, not the legends of religion.

  • Bruce Morrow

    I do wonder what Ray Comfort has to say about all this seeing his buddy Kirk is causing such a stir.

    • http://google.com IntheCustodyofCarl’sJr.

      free advertising

  • Neiman

    While I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of Kirk’s faith in Jesus, his defense of Santa Claus and the RCC is not in the best interests of lost souls.

    • lorasinger

      BS. He’s a bobble head who is the lapdog of Ray Comfort who despises you. You remember Comfort? He proved creationism with a banana?

  • railhead

    A common cry of people who don’t want to live by God’s rules is say things like “what else is bad, hot chocolate?”

    Every individual can decide for himself whether or not to celebrate, it’s between them and The Lord. (Romans 14). I’ve personally struggled with this issue, because I do believe Christmas is heavily Catholic and pagan (like most other things called “Christian” in the world). Yet, having a family that wants to have a Christmas celebration, wants to participate and wants to buy the kids presents makes it very hard to say no and isolate my entire family. The best I could do was compromise (which really is NOT a good word, Biblically) and just disallow Santa Claus, which no matter what anyone says is evil because the whole thing is predicated on lying to your own children.

    It should be noted however, that Kirk Cameron is not a saved man, and neither is his buddy Ray Comfort. This is by their own words, because they both have stated that you have to live a good life in order to be saved. Thus, they DO NOT believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, they believe in their own good works while acknowledging Jesus is God. They are in the category of Matthew 7:21-23 who will some day say “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”…betraying the fact they are trusting on their WONDERFUL WORKS, not the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

    • Neiman

      I agree with very much of what you have said, I am absolutely opposed to a works oriented salvation, as I believe it is to bring precious Christian souls into bondage to the Law and self effort to gain or maintain salvation or even to please God, as I believe it is truly by God’s Grace alone, by faith alone, His faith and that in Jesus alone as our only Savior and Lord; yet it is more than possible to be truly born again and to be caught up in bondage to false teachings at the same time. Such poor souls fail to find the peace of soul and the joy of the Lord in resting from their works, but I do not believe it means they are lost.

      I understand your feelings about this, I truly do, I more than share them; and I have written to and openly opposed Comfort and many of the contributors at WND for their preaching a law + grace salvation. It is a terrible bondage and yet I have to remind myself that if these people truly believe in salvation through faith in Christ, I cannot say they are not Christians and not saved, they just deceived about Grace and the fact that Christ is our all-in-all. It is sad and upsetting that people would be taught to work for their salvation, but if they truly came to Jesus by faith, they are saved IMO. Othewrise, we have to exclude many for errors in their faith and practices.

      Please understand that I do not believe in compromising the Truth of God’s Word and I am as passionate as you are in opposing works-salvation, but I feel we must trust God. I recall that when the disciples were upset that people that were not of their group were baptizing in Jesus name and casting out devils, they wanted to call down God’s Wrath against them; but Jesus said, to leave them alone, if they were not against Him, they were for Him. In other words, Jesus as the way unto salvation was being preached and that satisfied Jesus loving heart for the lost.

      • lorasinger

        I am absolutely opposed to a works oriented salvation
        .
        Then you are opposed to Jesus.

        • Neiman

          Jesus was NOT a proponent of a works oriented salvation, He is the Author of God’s Grace and that ends all talk of obedience to and any works of the Law. Read Galatians, all of it, very carefully and if need be repeatedly, the Holy Spirit makes it crystal clear that any attempts to, by obedience to the Law or any works, be saved or to maintain one’s salvation it is contrary to Grace and thereby it will only bring death. On the other hand, when one is saved and Christ lives His life and and trough the true child of God, good works will naturally flow from them, works of love and as love does no harm, they will, not by the force of their will, but by the Spirit in them, obey all the moral laws of God naturally.

          • lorasinger

            I guess it depends on which Jesus you’re talking about. Jesus the Jewish man who upheld Torah would have been a proponent of works and as James said in the bible, “will faith save you? Faith without works is dead”. Now the Jesus (god man) who Paul invented, follows Paul in that Paul said the law was a curse and faith was the main thing to focus on. As you can see in the USA, there are many “saved” people who rely entirely on faith alone, but also look at the poor and needy that they have voted to cut benefits for. What category do you put them into?

          • Neiman

            It is a waste of time to try and educate you on the nature of Jesus. It is impossible on a blog to teach you about why the Law came about, how it was designed to show the utter futility of any human being trying to be righteous by their own efforts. While Jesus obeyed all the law perfectly on our behalf, when he spoke of the Law in the Gospels he was showing the Jews, people of the Law, that no matter what they did they could never earn their salvation, nor could they ever please God.

            By the Holy Spirit through Paul, this same Jesus brought us into the dispensation of God’s grace, wherein salvation is a gift of God and can only be obtained and maintained by faith alone. The same Holy Spirit tthrough James, was teaching that if any man came to Jesus by faith alone and was converted, being born again of his spirit, they would show the genuine nature of that conversion by their good works, those works not of their own self efforts, which would always be polluted by their flesh, but as evidence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. If such fruits of the spirit, good works were not evident, then their faith was a dead faith, it did not result in their truly been converted to Christ. So the grace of God, by faith, even that faith being of and by Christ in them, would cause them to share in the body of Christ and His spirit within them would produce good works, genuine works of God’s love in and through their lives.

            No matter how hard you strive to feed the poor, to comfort those in need, if these are not being produced as fruits of the spirit within, they benefit no one and only lead to death. Yes, such false good works may fill the belly, may put clothes in their backs and even provide shelter, but as it is not done in the name and the power of Christ, it will not produce any eternal good. Men of goodwill, whether in or out of Christ, may vote differently, having different ideas of what is good and what is not so good. It is all quite subjective, a matter of centuries old arguments and does not indicate whether or not a person is a Christian. The true Christian is in the world but he is not part of the world and that includes its political systems/ideology, it is not a matter of political party; the true Christian is only interested in following Christ and following their own good Christian conscience in how they conduct their affairs in this world.

            I am sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about God’s word, about the nature of Jesus and it seems your interests are focused only on the flesh and feeling good about yourself and not wholehearted obedience to God.

          • lorasinger

            I am sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about God’s word…

            Wrong. I know those things that your church has lied about. Jesus was a Jew, born and died a Jew. I know what Jews believe and what Jesus would have believed in the times he lived in.
            .
            It isn’t the pagan god plus virgin equals sacrificial man god who dies for mankind and resurrects story, Neiman. That is a pagan concept that has many clones in the mythology of Rome. It isn’t Jewish.

          • lorasinger

            “In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression” Proverbs 10:17

          • lorasinger

            Sorry bubs, but he was. The man Jesus was a Jew and as Jews believe, works are the way to salvation. Paul changed it to faith and it is Paul who you follow.
            .
            No, good works won’t follow faith, Neiman. Look to the GOP and their ugly treatment of the poor. Look to history and see the murder and deaths that occurred because of the followers of your Christianity that follows Paul who changed Jesus’ message of works to faith, something that appealed to the selfish who don’t think that responsibility for actions but only faith will give them a crack at the afterlife. Sorry bubs, it isn’t going to work.

    • lorasinger

      Paul said: Romans3:28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. (The guy YOU follow)

      James, the brother of Jesus, reflecting Jesus teachings said: 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

  • Neiman

    To all the true Christians here, while I have seriously questioned what Kirk and the RCC has been doing in regards to Santa in defense of that myth; I have failed you all and Kirk by not asking every Christian to embrace and love him sincerely, from the heart, as a dear brother in Christ and for not calling for prayer for him that God will correct him in what I believe is an error on his part, a serious error in understanding, as I would seek and ask for his and your prayers when I fail in my understandings. Let us in our love accept Kirk unconditionally as a brother in Christ and be patient with him, when like us all, he makes mistakes.

    That does not mean we should not speak out boldly when a brother is wrong, but try harder to do so in the Love of God.

    • lorasinger

      And if you’re a mainstream Christian, keep in mind that Cameron is a fundamentalist and won’t listen to you. Stop defending the fruitcakes.

      • Neiman

        Fundamentalism is this, pretty dangerous stuff:

        – The inerrancy of the Bible
        – The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ’s miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
        – The Virgin Birth of Christ
        – The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
        – The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
        Pretty bad, right? <- sarcasm intended.

        We do not know Cameron's heart and being in error does nothing to wipe out his consistent stand for salvation in Christ. Christians should love him as a brother and pray he will be awakened to his errors.

        • lorasinger

          If you are mainstream, don’t defend him because the fundamentalists don’t think much of mainstream people and will turn on you too for being “lukewarm”. You aren’t dearly loved in their cult ranks.

          • Neiman

            If one come to salvation by the gift of God’s grace alone, by faith alone and even that faith of Christ, in Jesus alone; and if that faith is genuine, then any such person, even if we disagree with some of the positions of our brothers in Christ. We are commanded by Christ to love the brethren with our whole hearst and and absent any denial of faith in Christ as the means to salvation, he is a brother to me and every Bible believing Christian. That does not mean we cannot oppose things he believes in which we believe are error, but always in love towards a dear brother in Christ.

            I am a little sick of all the so – called Christians expressing such hatred for fundamentalists. If you look at the list immediately above, any Christian should call themselves a fundamentalist, which only means they embrace these five fundamental doctrines of the Christian church. Then as best we can, in the love of Christ, set aside these things which only served to divide us.

          • lorasinger

            No, I’m talking about clinic bombers, killers of medical personnel, hate mail, death threats, kidnapping, stalking, arson, mosque burnings, synagogue graffiti and such to a tune of over 100,000 arrests and convictions, Neiman. These are the crazies among the Christians, just like the Taliban among the Muslims. Don’t keep shielding them. They are turning on you too.

          • lorasinger

            By the same token, Neiman, people are getting sick of fundamentalists too. They are more than those you claim the fundamentalists to be, Neimen. They are the Christo-Taliban among us.

            Sorry Neiman. Jesus did not preach that belief alone uld get you a shot to the hereafter. Paul did. The real Jesus was a Jew who said: “ut if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (The Law)” Jesus brother James said “Will faith save you? Without works, faith is dead”.

          • Neiman

            Again, I don’t want to be insulting, but you obviously do not understand Scripture at all. When we speak of Paul saying this or that, it was by the grace of God, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Whom is also known as the Spirit of Christ. Jesus is the living Word of Almighty God having taken on flesh to become our Savior, so whenever we encounter Scripture, it is Jesus the living Word speaking through his human instruments. Peter calls Paul’s writings – scripture.

            It is the same Spirit of Christ in Ephesians, saying, “by abolishing in His [Jesus] flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” In Galatians, this very same spirit of Christ through the apostle Paul, said, “you [who] are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ you have fallen away from grace.” Elsewhere in Galatians, this same spirit of Christ, said, “know that a man is not justified by observing the law.” “We may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be saved.” “If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse.” “Clearly no one is justified before God by the law.” On and on it is the same Jesus that tells us over and over again that he has brought an end to the Law in regards to our obedience to it, in order to become righteous, to gain or maintain our salvation.

            I think I told you before that James and Paul were talking through the same Spirit of Christ, so they cannot possibly be opposing one another, everything must be brought into perfect harmony if we are not to stray into error. I carefully explained that the same spirit of Christ through James was saying that if one is truly converted, having been born again of the Holy Spirit, by faith, we should see evidence of that conversion in “good works” [not the Law] and the gifts of the Spirit proceeding out of their lives. If such things do not exist, then one should seriously meditate upon whether or not they had been truly saved. Lastly to this point, the only commandment of Jesus Christ for his church was to love one another as he loved us and if that is true in our lives, the love of God would not do anything to harm any of his children and thereby, not by our own will, not by our own strength, but by Christ living his life in us, because we love the brethren, we will naturally find ourselves obeying all the moral laws of God.

            I agree that among those people claiming to be Christians, but they’re not truly being Christians, throughout the entire Christian era there have been some of these who have committed despicable acts for which they will be judged. But it is an error to refer to them as Christians, even if they claim to be, as acts of violence against others and hateful attitudes betray that they were never truly converted in the first place and they will find absolutely no warrant in the New Testament for any of the bad things they do.

          • lorasinger

            Again, I don’t want to be insulting, but you obviously do not understand Scripture at all. When we speak of Paul

            When you speak of Paul, you speak of the great liar of the Ebionites, the direct followers of Jesus and the apostles, people who knew them. Paul was called Data Kazav , the great liar and his religion, Christianity, called by the Ebionites, the false religion. The church didn’t tell you about that?
            ..
            Peter was one of the apostles at Antioch who called Paul a heretic, proved by Asiatic Christians, who preached a heretical doctrine.
            …..
            Anything written by Paul is Paul’s own doctrine, not that of the apostles. He’s on his own, Neiman, preaching his junk to gentiles who, already familiar with men gods, were glad to accept a god who allowed them to enter a heaven just by “faith” alone and without the Law.

            Sorry Neiman, a black swan is still a swan. Murder in the name of God is still murder.

  • Chrissy Vee

    As far as I am concerned, Kirk Cameron has lost all credibility with me.

    • BarkingDawg

      You just figured that out?

  • Rudy Hart

    The only mention of a birthday celebration that God included in his word the Bible is the birthday celebration for the same Herod who played a key role in the events that led to the executions of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. John the Baptist’s execution literally took place at Herod’s birthday celebration. Would God want followers of Jesus Christ to celebrate Jesus as Herod and those like him celebrated themselves? 

    • lorasinger

      Not much point having a birthday celebration for a dead guy who wasn’t born on that date anyway, is there? It’s written that the shepherds had their flocks out at night. In Israel, only from about April to the end of October is it warm enough for that. I guess, if you take weather into account, April to October are the only months that you can choose for the big birthday party.

  • Gabriel A. King

    “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:”-

    Colossians 2:16

  • Louis Cypher

    Cameron is a total bigot fucktard.