Rick Warren’s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

WarrenIn a new video, megachurch leader and author Rick Warren is calling for Christians to unite with Roman Catholics and “Pope Francis,” who Warren recently referred to as the “Holy Father”—a move that is raising concerns among Christians nationwide and is resulting in calls for Warren to repent.

Warren made the comments following his visit to the Vatican last month, where he spoke at an interfaith conference on the “Complementarity of Man and Woman.”

“We have far more in common than what divides us,” he said in the two-minute video released by the Catholic News Service on Wednesday, described as being an outline for “an ecumenical vision for Catholics and Protestants to work together to defend the sanctity of life, sex and marriage.”

“They would all say, ‘We believe in the Trinity; we believe in the Bible; we believe in the resurrection; we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ,” Warren asserted, speaking of the various denominations within Christianity, of which he included Roman Catholicism. “These are the big issues.”

The author of the bestselling book “The Purpose Driven Life” then sought to defend Catholics from those who take issue with the practice of seeking the intercession of Mary and the various deceased persons that have been sainted by the Vatican.

“Sometimes protestants think that Catholics worship Mary like she’s another god, but that’s not exactly Catholic doctrine,” Warren contended. “People say, ‘What are the saints all about? Why are you praying to the saints?’ And when you understand what they mean by what they’re saying, there’s a whole lot more commonality [that we have with Roman Catholics].”

“There’s still real differences—no doubt about that,” Warren stated. “But the most important thing is, if you love Jesus, we’re on the same team.”

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He closed by speaking of his belief that Christians and Catholics serve as co-laborers for the cause of defending life and family.

“When it comes to the family, we are co-workers in the field in this for the protection of the sanctity of life, the sanctity of sex and the sanctity of marriage,” Warren said. “So, there’s a great commonality and there’s no division on any of those three.”

But Warren’s comments have raised concern from Christian leaders nationwide, who are now calling the Saddleback leader to repentance. Matt Slick of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) repudiated each of Warren’s points.

“Sure, there are Catholics who love the real Christ, the one who died on the cross for our sins. That is not the problem,” he said. “The problem is the Roman Catholic Church’s false teachings concerning Mary and salvation.”

“Rick Warren says both the Catholics and the Protestants believe in the Bible. But, there is a significant difference between the Bible of the Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church, which has added seven books,” Slick wrote. “[T]here are numerous problems in the apocryphal books, such as the teaching of salvation by works [and] the offering of money for the sins of the dead.”

“Warren implies that both Protestants and Catholics have the same view of salvation,” he continued. “Though it’s technically correct to say that Catholics believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, they reject justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Instead, it teaches that good works of various kinds are necessary for salvation.”

The Christian apologist then pointed to several Roman Catholic teachings on Mary, mainly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), such as that Mary “by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation” and that “[b]y asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One.”

“Rick Warren has not only failed to recognize the problems in these serious areas, but he has lent his credibility as a Protestant pastor in support of the Roman Catholic Church,” Slick wrote. “This should never be done by any Protestant pastor who takes the Bible seriously. I must conclude that Mr. Warren does not take the word of God seriously and/or he does not understand the damnable teachings of Roman Catholicism regarding salvation.”

“Rick Warren needs to repent,” he said.


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  • Neiman

    Rick Warren is part of the End Times One-Word Religion. He has long compromised the Word of God. How can the disciples of Jesus work in common with Belial? They have to compromise. By calling the Pope the Holy Father, he is denying the one and only Holy Father, placing man and in this case the man who sits on the Throne of the False Prophet on God’s Throne, making him equal to God the Father. This is the Spirit of anti-Christ.

    Yes, Catholics and Protestants can both work on issues common the the Faith, but not together and the latter not having to compromise their faith.

    • pastoredsmith

      No, he is not. Rick has a valid point here. If the Catholic Church distorted Christ or worshipped a different God than we do, it would be different. But, I have many close Catholic friends and i can tell you that they are as saved and on their way to Heaven as any Protestant is. Yes, they have a lot of “baggage” with them, but so do Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals and all other Protestants. The Bible is clear that we are to worship ONE GOD. Catholics and Protestants alike practice that very thing.

      • Neiman

        Yet, the Pope says that Catholics/Christians and Islam worship the same God too. Is that true, do they get saved too? Of course, Islam does not worship the same God at all, but Rick’s new partner in the faith says their god is the same god.

        I have always said that any Catholic that came to salvation by the gift of God’s Grace alone, by faith alone – and that too is a gift, in Christ alone, there is no reason to believe they are not saved; but, while there are exceptions, that is not real the fact of things at all. Most Catholics have as much, if not more devotion to Mary as a key player in their salvation – displacing Christ as our sole Savior, believing she intercedes for them – displacing Christ as our sole intercessor, and as the Pope recently said, without recognizing Mary as our Mother, no one is saved. They are saved by partaking of the sacraments, by partaking of the Eucharist, by penance, by being members of the Roman Catholic Church, maybe even by spending time in Purgatory paying for their sins and other things, these things, all of that, are anti-Christ. So how could those people be saved by adding those things to Christ’s sacrifice, by their own works, by the efforts of priests forgiving them, by the things I mentioned? How can Christ share His sole ministry with Mary and He be the same God?

        Rick has long worked on this ecumenical idea of bring the Protestant and Catholics Church together, he compromises his faith daily, while his new pal the Pope, the man Rick has publicly recognized as his Holy Father, is also working to bring Islam and all world religions into one world religion, saying no matter what they call their god, they are all the same god, all are but different paths to salvation, even saying atheists can be saved by their good works. So, how can these two so-called Christian groups, Protestant and Catholics serve the same god?

        • Thomas Collins Jr June

          Why not have adoration (different than worship) of the Virgin Mother, just think for one minute, God the Father of all the women in the world chose Mary to bear our savior Jesus Christ. She should and is adored by us Catholics.

          • ronaldo morrow

            how do you define adoration? take the rosary for example. how many prayers are to mary and how many are to christ? show me in the bible where mary is the queen of heaven. show me in the bible where she is our mother

          • Neiman

            Exactly right!

          • jcrosby35

            Mary is neither the queen of heaven or our mother as the pope would tell us. Simply put she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ. And therefore blessed to do so. We are to honor her as the mother of Christ, no more no less. To add more or less is idolatry and cult worship.
            But as in all cults (RCC),she has been exalted way beyond what God ever intended. Lets keep it in context.
            Jesus Christ alone is Lord

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dion-Richardson/1201967847 Dion Richardson

            Mary was indeed blessed to be the vessel to bring Christ into the world, but she is no different than any other believer. Acts 1 tells us that she was in the Upper Room to receive the Holy Spirit like the rest of the Early Church. Before the cross, Scripture says she came to see Him and He stated that “Jesus asked, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” Then he pointed to his disciples and said, “Look, these are my mother and brothers. Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!” (‭Matthew‬ ‭12‬:‭48-50‬ NLT)

          • Kristina

            Heb 9:4
            which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

            2 Samuel 6:2
            And David arose, and went with all the people who were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who dwelleth between the cherubims.

            Luke 1:39
            And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah,

            2 Samuel 6:9
            And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

            Luke 1:43
            And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

            2 Samuel 6:11
            And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.

            Luke 1:56
            And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

            2 Samuel 6:16
            And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

            Luke 1:41
            And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

          • Timothy Hollingsworth

            So few people see how Mary is pre-figured in the Ark of the Covenant… She carries in her the prophet, priest, and king symbolized in the Ark.

          • JDM85

            For the Jews (and Jesus was one, recall), the Queen was not the king’s wife, but the king’s mother.

            “How is it that the mother of my Lord comes to me?”

            Feel free to argue with Elizabeth, John the Baptist’s mom.

            Oh,and Catholics didn’t *add* 7 books; Martin Luther subtracted them. Those books were found with all the others among the dead sea scrolls….Ooops. 🙂

          • Jo Ann Ambrose Larsen

            True…

          • Don Fass

            show me in the Bible where Jesus created Roman Catholicism in the 1st century, then show me in the Bible centuries and centuries later where Jesus then created something called Protestantism with its zillions of arguing branches?

          • Timothy Hollingsworth

            Jesus did not come to Earth to write a book. How could a book prove itself? The Bible is a collection of divinely inspired writings that were compiled 3 centuries after Christ and along with ancient Hebrew and Greek texts deemed infallible. Jesus came to Earth to establish his Church. Once He established the Church (with Peter as the head) and directed them to “protect the Truth”, they had the authority, centuries later after the persecution had abated, to determine which books belonged in the canon of Scripture.

          • Kristina

            What was the purpose of John 19:26-27? The very last thing that Jesus did before giving up His Spirit?

            “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
            Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.”

            Now what was the purpose of that? Just to show Jesus was a nice guy? That He really did care for His mother? Of course He is/does!!! We are all called to be Jesus’ “beloved” disciples. Think about what this verse is teaching us. Jesus gave us His mother. She is welcome in my home.

          • ronaldo morrow

            that was basically jesus telling john u take care of my mother now, she is now ur mother. at that time widows were basically screwed. they inherit nothing when their husband died. thats why paul said to always take care of the widows n orphans because they had nothing. that did not mean she is our mother. infact when jesus was preaching someone in the crowd said ur mother n brothers r looking for u. jesus then replied by saying “who is my mother, who is my brother? its is one who does the will of God”

          • Kristina

            I disagree. Hanging there on the cross while your lungs suffocate would have made talking extremely difficult. There is something more to that passage. There is more purpose that passage then what you purpose. From scripture we know that God is big on families. I always wondered why in James 1:27 only orphans and widows are mentioned. Why not the sick, deformed, dying or the poor? Certainly God wants us to care for them as well. Then one day this verse came alive to me; I believe the reason why only widows and orphans are mentioned is because they represent the ones outside of God’s family. God wants us to seek out and welcome and care for those who are not part of His family. This verse really showed me the heart of Abba! He loves families and wants us to be part of His; even giving us His own mother to take as our own.

          • ronaldo morrow

            46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

            48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

            We have often heard that John was the beloved disciple, and usually expressed under the notion of him whom Jesus loved. Our Lord commendeth his mother to the care of John, whom he had ordered to take care of her, as if he had been her own son: this letteth us know that Joseph was at this time dead, otherwise it is not probable that Christ would have committed his mother to any other guardian.

            Christ was talking specifically to John. if it wasnt so Christ would have been more specific.

          • Kristina

            In the passages referenced above, Jesus points out the “why” in Mary’s relationship to Jesus: she had free will, she could have doubted or disobeyed, but she didn’t. She had Faith, she said yes to God and was obedient.

            Jewish customs at the time, the care of widows would have been the eldest son’s responsibility, then the next eldest, etc. If you are among those that claim Mary had other children, then this passage doesn’t even make sense according to that; it would have been a deep insult to the other living siblings to give the care of the mother outside the family.

            Since Mary had no other children Jesus places her care to John, but there were no other disciples there at the cross. John represents all Jesus’ beloved disciples. As Adam and Eve stood near the tree of knowledge in Genesis, where “the woman” became known as Eve (mother of all the living). Mary (interestingly only referred to as “woman” by Jesus) becomes mother of all the LIVING in Jesus.

          • ronaldo morrow

            The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin, and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
            Matthew 1:24-25–“And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.”
            Matthew 12:46-47–“While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
            Matthew 13:55–“Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
            Mark 6:2-3–“And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
            John 2:12–“After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”
            Acts 1:14–“These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
            1 Cor. 9:4-5–“Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
            Gal. 1:19–But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.”

          • Kristina

            UNTIL

            Until – Doesn’t imply a change … Matthew 28:20, 1 Cor. 15: 25, Matthew 13:33, Acts 25:21

            Jesus’ “Brothers” (adelphoi)) = Cousins or Kinsmen

            Luke 1:36 – Elizabeth is Mary’s kinswoman. Some Bibles translate kinswoman as “cousin,” but this is an improper translation because in Hebrew and Aramaic, there is no word for “cousin.”

            Luke 22:32 – Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his “brethren.” In this case, we clearly see Jesus using “brethren” to refer to the other apostles, not his biological brothers.

            Acts 1:12-15 – the gathering of Jesus’ “brothers” amounts to about 120. That is a lot of “brothers.” Brother means kinsmen in Hebrew.

            Acts 7:26; 11:1; 13:15,38; 15:3,23,32; 28:17,21 – these are some of many other examples where “brethren” does not mean blood relations.

            Rom. 9:3 – Paul uses “brethren” and “kinsmen” interchangeably. “Brothers” of Jesus does not prove Mary had other children.

            Gen. 11:26-28 – Lot is Abraham’s nephew (“anepsios”) / Gen. 13:8; 14:14,16 – Lot is still called Abraham’s brother (adelphos”) . This proves that, although a Greek word for cousin is “anepsios,” Scripture also uses “adelphos” to describe a cousin.

            Gen. 29:15 – Laban calls Jacob is “brother” even though Jacob is his nephew. Again, this proves that brother means kinsmen or cousin.

            Deut. 23:7; 1 Chron. 15:5-18; Jer. 34:9; Neh. 5:7 -“brethren” means kinsmen. Hebrew and Aramaic have no word for “cousin.”

            2 Sam. 1:26; 1 Kings 9:13, 20:32 – here we see that “brethren” can even be one who is unrelated (no bloodline), such as a friend.

            2 Kings 10:13-14 – King Ahaziah’s 42 “brethren” were really his kinsmen.

            1 Chron. 23:21-22 – Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren” who were really their cousins.

            Neh. 4:14; 5:1,5,8,10,14 – these are more examples of “brothers” meaning “cousins” or “kinsmen.”

            Tobit 5:11 – Tobit asks Azarias to identify himself and his people, but still calls him “brother.”

            Amos 1: 9 – brotherhood can also mean an ally (where there is no bloodline).

          • KenS

            Galatians 1:19 says “But other of the apostles saw I none, save James, the Lord’s brother.” It is clear by the context this is meaning his biological brother, because he had already mentioned the apostles (brethren) in the first part of the sentence.

          • Kristina

            Cousin

          • KenS

            Brother means brother, not cousin….

          • Kristina

            What is the Greek word in that passage?

          • KenS

            the greek word is “adelphos” which means “to share the same womb” meaning having the same mother; therefore it means brother…
            the greek word for cousin is “suggenes” which was used to describe Mary’s cousin elizabeth the mother of John the baptist.

          • Kristina

            Did you know that even reformers like Luther and Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary? So did the early Church as referenced in the early Church fathers. Orthodox Christians also to this day believe in the perpetual Virginity of Mary. Any other notion was not thought of until about 500 years ago or later.

          • KenS

            The greek word used is “adephos” which literally means “the sharing of the womb” in order to share the womb you would have to have the same mother, which means you would be brothers or sisters.

            th greek word “suggenes” means cousin and is used to describe Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, whom is the mother of John the Baptist.

          • ronaldo morrow

            also as to why chose John to take care of mary and why he was talking specifically to him: 1) as the elder brother, the care of His sole remaining parent was Jesus’ responsibility. He wasn’t about to leave it to others to decide, given the opportunity to arrange the matter Himself (even though He had to do so from the cross). Since none of the 12 really “got it” before Jesus was crucified and resurrected, it would not have been prudent of our Lord to entrust this responsibility to John before the cross, any more than it would have been fair to expect the charge and responsibility to fully register before John saw Jesus hanging there. There is a proper time and place for everything (Eccl.8:5-6; cf. Eccl.3:1-8). Even though there are some things that weigh so heavily upon us that we would like to settle them ahead of time, if we are prudent and wise we will, like our Lord, wait patiently for just the right time.
            2) There can be no stronger testimony as to the importance of faith over all other worldly considerations than this decision of our Lord. In our own scale of priorities, some of us would put family first in such situations (the principle of “blood being thicker than water”). Others would consider the material aspects: “Who could best provide for her?” John was not family. John was poor (and no doubt poorer than Jesus’ brothers, for John had been unemployed in the worldly sense for the past three years, living off of donations along with Jesus and the other twelve: cf. Lk.8:3). Our Lord was clearly more concerned with His mother’s spiritual welfare than with either family considerations or economic welfare (and letting His brothers take care of her would have been better on both of these other two counts). For our Lord was concerned that His mother continue in an environment of faith, her eternal life and spiritual growth being even more important to Him than her physical life and financial security. If we really love someone, we should live by this example and put their spiritual welfare ahead of all other considerations. For even if we see to it that they are happy, healthy, and know no financial want, if they are suffering spiritually because of our focus on these other issues – far subordinate in God’s eyes to maintaining healthy faith, growing in the truth, and drawing closer to Him and His Son – then we have made a poor bargain indeed.

            John was, as it says in this context, “the disciple whom Jesus loved” (cf. also Jn.13:23; 20:2; 21:7; 21:20). Since our Lord’s judgment was perfect, this means that John certainly had a lot going for him relative to the other disciples. And the qualities which attracted our Lord to John must have been primarily spiritual. We certainly see His great humility and responsiveness to the leading of the Spirit in his gospel and his epistles. And John, of course, lived longer than any of the rest, penning the final book of the Bible, the book of Revelation, apparently just before his death in circa 64-68 A.D. For all these reasons, John seems to have been the best choice and indeed the perfect choice to look after Mary. remember that John was the only one that did not run when Jesus was taken away

          • KenS

            Mary does have other children, James, the author of the epistle of James and the head of the Church in Jerusalem, and other brothers and sisters as well

          • KenS

            Mary does have other children, James, the author of the epistle of James and the head of the Church in Jerusalem, and other brothers and sisters as well

          • Jo Ann Ambrose Larsen

            And she is welcomed in mine!!

          • jcrosby35

            1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

            1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. We pray in Jesus name to the Father. In Christ’s authority our prayers are answered. No where in scripture are we ever call to pray to Mary, she holds no authority.

          • Kristina

            I think your just misunderstanding the expectations when “praying” to Mary. We are asking for her intercession. We are called to have many intercessors. The prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective!!! Mothers are always advocates for their children, haven’t you heard of the saying, “mothers do better research than the FBI?” Using the wedding of Cana as an example, we can see that Mary is an advocate for the people and places their needs at the feet of her Son, who she knows can provide for their needs. Mary always points us to her Son.

          • jcrosby35

            Mary is dead and gone.

            Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
            Her job was to bare God’s Son and our Savior. The Holy Spirit is our advocate and it is in Christ’s name and authority we pray to the Father. All authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ. There is only one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus.
            No where in the Word of God does God authorize that we pray through anyone else. Or pray in their name.e
            Mary is done and is in the presence of God. We do Not Paul, Peter or Mary. And we are commanded not to make any images or bow down to them. Lev. 6:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.
            We do not pray to the dead, or call for them. Saul had Samuel come up from the dead using the witch of Endor and lost his life as a result and Israel was lost along with his sons.
            No we do not use Mary or any other intercessors.

          • jcrosby35

            Mary is dead and gone.

            Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
            Mary job was to bare God’s Son who is our Savior. The Holy Spirit is our advocate
            It is in Christ’s name and authority we pray to the Father. All authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ. There is only one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus.

            No where in the Word of God does God authorize that we pray through anyone else. Or pray in their name.

            Mary is done and is in the presence of God. We do use Paul, Peter or Mary. And we are commanded not to make any images or bow down to them. Lev. 6:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your hand, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

            We do not pray to the dead, or call for them. Saul had Samuel come up from the dead using the witch of Endor and lost his life as a result and Israel was lost along with his sons.
            No, the living do not call on the dead.

          • Kristina

            John 11:26
            And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

          • jcrosby35

            Knowing Jesus Christ and believing on Him as Lord and Savior by grace through faith, Eph. 2:8-10 is a promise of eternal life. Not by your works but by Christ’s death and resurrection. The same spirit that raised Lazerath, through Christ also raised Christ and will raise us.
            Count on it.

          • Kristina

            Mary as queen- Luke 1:32-33.
            “31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
            32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
            33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”

            Jewish context: in the Davidic kingdom, the queens were the mother of the King.

            If your a devout young Jewish girl like Mary, you would realize that if you were to bear a son who will be given the throne of David, it would mean that son would be a King, which makes you queen of His kingdom. Which is why Luke 1:46-55 makes such perfect sense. No one has to exalt Mary, God already did.

          • ronaldo morrow

            again show me where God has exalted mary. God shares his glory with no one. mary had to be saved and receive the holy ghost just like everyone else in the upper room as recorded in acts.

          • Kristina

            Luke 1:46-55 “He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
            and has exalted the lowly.”

            Yes, God exalted a young Jewish girl to queen of His Kingdom, because in the Davidic Kingdom the mothers of the King were queen. Generations will (and do) call her blessed.

            Even further Mary is the ark of the New Covenant. The ark of the covenant contained, the Word(Torah), the staff of Aaron, and the Manna that came down from
            Heaven. Mary contained, the Word made flesh, the high priest, the bread of life that came down from heaven. If that wasn’t enough in of itself, check out these parallels in the Word:

            Heb 9:4
            which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;

            2 Samuel 6:2
            And David arose, and went with all the people who were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who dwelleth between the cherubims.

            Luke 1:39
            And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah,

            2 Samuel 6:9
            And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

            Luke 1:43
            And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

            2 Samuel 6:11
            And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.

            Luke 1:56
            And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

            2 Samuel 6:16
            And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

            Luke 1:41
            And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

          • Timothy Hollingsworth

            Mary had already received the Holy Ghost, that is how she had conceived (Luke 1)

          • HenryBowers

            The fact that she’s mentioned along with Joseph in the Nativity narrative shows that God exalts her in his Word. She is the Queen of Heaven.

          • ronaldo morrow

            you are making assumptions. show me where God specifically tells mary that she receives this title. you won’t find it. God shares his glory with no one

          • HenryBowers

            Your requirement to reference the bible alone is unjustified. That she has this title is well explained by the Vicar of Christ, Pius XII.

          • ronaldo morrow

            yup. NOT the word of God

          • HenryBowers

            Your arbitrary requirement remains unjustified . . .

          • The Last Trump

            Arbitrary! The Word of God arbitrary! Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for the case against Catholics, doesn’t it folks? Arbitrary!

          • HenryBowers

            Catholics think it arbitrary to rely exclusively on a book that Catholic bishops compiled. For obviously some truths of the faith both precede and fall outside the scope of the compilation efforts of Catholic bishops.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            I erred, We only worship/adore God not Mary, sorry. Mary is Venerated. Though English words like ‘worship’ and ‘adoration’ are occasionally used to signify only veneration, honor or affection, they are generally understood to refer to that highest type of worship reserved for God alone. In this sense, Catholics do NOT adore or worship Mary, or any other created person or thing.

            The Ecumenical Council held at Nicaea in 787 considered the issue of veneration which is not directed to the Divine persons in relation to sacred images. At this Council, the Church taught that the special type of worship called adoration may only be offered to God: Latria from the Greek term for enslavement. However, the Church also acknowledged that certain persons, though only creatures of God, are entitled to honor or veneration of a qualitatively lesser degree than the absolute allegiance owed to God. The Conciliar Fathers termed this lesser devotion: Dulia. Such veneration was proper for Mary and the Saints. In view of Mary’s important role in salvation history as Mother of Jesus, the Church recognized that Mary warranted a special degree of honor among the Saints. For this class of devotion, St. Thomas Aquinas (d. 1274) suggested the term hyperdulia.

            No, Catholics do not worship Mary, if by worshiping is meant adoring. She is not God for us, has never been and will never be. Addressing prayer to Mary is like asking a dear and close friend for help. Do we make a God of our friend when asking him to keep us in his prayers? Do we divinize him/her when asking for his prayerful support in sickness and the trials of life? Believers on earth and in heaven constitute a living community which the major Christian denominations recognize as the communion of saints. The saints in heaven are not dead. Their Christian example of virtuous living and their closeness to God make of them powerful allies for us struggling mortals. They do not take God’s place; they are an expression of his grace.

            Likewise, there is nothing in Mary that would not have been in God and come from him. She is a pure product of God; this is the essential meaning of Mary’s sinlessness. Never forget: if God wanted the exclusively direct relation between him and you and me he would never send Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, never allow scripture to be the foundation of our faith, never encourage his Son to found the Church or institute the sacraments. Christianity is the religion of mediation, essential and foundational in Christ; participative and subordinate in his Church and in varying degrees in the believers.

          • Jo Ann Ambrose Larsen

            Very true and very well said. There is such an incredible amount of both ignorance and hatred on the part of the various Protestant groups. Makes me wonder how many people read all this mess and totally walk away from any relationship…and eternal life… with our Savior. Not a very welcoming bunch….very bad witnesses for our God.

          • Jo Ann Ambrose Larsen

            Very true and very well said. There is such an incredible amount of both ignorance and hatred on the part of the various Protestant groups. Makes me wonder how many people read all this mess and totally walk away from any relationship…and eternal life… with our Savior. Not a very welcoming bunch….very bad witnesses for our God.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            Your right, though we both read and believe in a similar Bible and God as the Trinity and Salvation through Christ & Baptism, Protestants have forgotten their Traditions of True Christianity, that Martin Luther sure did a number on them during the Reformation. But you got to love them for a lively debate and discussion! LOL

          • KenS

            Except, Jesus himself tells us we are to have no intercessor to God except Jesus. therefore, we are not supposed to pray to Mary for this so-called help that you are suggesting.

          • Kristina

            So you never ask anyone to pray for you? We are called to pray for
            One another. James 5:16.

          • The Last Trump

            No. We don’t pray to dead people.

          • Kristina

            Oh, I see cause my God is not a God of the dead, but of the LIVING. Luke 20:38

          • The Last Trump

            Pray TO, sweetie. TO. No prayers TO dead people. None to Mary. None to saints. Only TO God.

          • Kristina

            Sweetie? Is that necessary?

            Communion of saints; on earth as it is in heaven. They stand before God and are pure and righteous, for nothing will enter heaven that isn’t pure. We know the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective. They can intercede for us. We are ALL His body whether standing on his Earth or before God in heaven. Not even death can separate us from the love of God. We are One body. The saints in heaven can pray for us. We are surrounded by these clouds of witnesses. Garth Brooks might have friends in low places, but I’ve got mine in high places!

          • The Last Trump

            Okey dokey. You pray to dead people. I will pray to God. Just as the Bible teaches.

          • HenryBowers

            Sounds like you want to try it. Give it a try.

          • The Last Trump

            Sorry. Not Catholic.

          • HenryBowers

            “Behold, your mother.”

          • KenS

            The difference is we are asking a live person to pray for each other which is commanded. It is not commanded to ask for any dead person to act as an intercessor except for the only one who has died and overcome death for eternity.

          • Kristina

            Hate to sound like a broken record but my God is not a God of the dead but of the living. Surely the body of Christ that stands before God in heaven is more fully alive than you or I!!! When Moses or Elijah appeared to Peter and James and John with Jesus, were they dead?! No!!! Jesus is our only mediator, the only perfect lamb sacrifice that could atone for the sins of humanity. Not Moses, nor Mary’s body hanging on the cross could have atoned for us; only Jesus. He is the meditator. Yet we can have MANY intercessors on our behalf before God.

          • jcrosby35

            1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

            1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            Don’t know if you were ever a Catholic or not. The big difference in Catholicism and Protestantism is most Protestants are “strictly” Bible believers whereas Catholics are Bible Believers and Believers in Traditions of the Church, the Church Jesus founded. This article from Catholic Answers better explains it than I could. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/scripture-and-tradition

          • filder claret

            When Jesus was about to die on the cross, (John 19:26-27) ‘When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” ‘John represented all of us at the foot of the cross then and that’s why Catholics honour Mary, She is our mother because we are children of God. Jesus is son of God so he is our brother. His mother has become our mother as well. Mary was part of God’s plan to save you and I. How can you say Jesus is God and Saviour without honouring His mother “Mary, the Mother of God”. Unless you don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

          • ronaldo morrow

            and thats where it should stop. mary is not divine. nowhere is this ever even hinted in scripture. catholics say they don’t worship mary but its pretty clear even when praying the rosary where all the prayers go to. paul says that Christ is our mediator between us and God. why go through another mediator to get to the mediator? makes not sense right yet thats what catholics say mary is–a mediator to Christ.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            If you bring up the Rosary then you know the sequence, but what you leave out is the Mysteries we meditate on, The Joyful Mysteries, The Sorrowful Mysteries, The Glorious Mysteries and the Mysteries of Light all dealing with Jesus Conception to His Crucifixion and Ascension into Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, God.

          • ronaldo morrow

            im familiar for I’m a former catholic. again regardless of what are in between those beeds the fact remains that the rosary is more focused on the prayers for mary, not Christ. mary can’t do anything for us. jesus tells us he is sitting on the right hand of the father on our behalf so why pray to anyone else? the focus is and always has been Christ. you walk into any catholic church and u will c more statues of mary than Christ. again point out to me in the bible where mary is to be worshiped and that we pray to her to get to Christ. you won’t find it. its not biblical

          • Kristina

            We see in (1 Kings 2:20), the queen mother acts as advocate for the people, just as Mary acts as advocate in (John 2:4-5) and she is not refused. She is mother of all believers, what mother isn’t an advocate for her children? Trust me, I’m a mother of five and I know the protection and prayer I place over my children.

          • ronaldo morrow

            also regarding the rosary do you know every time catholics pray the rosary they are doing exactly what jesus says not to do–“When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again.

          • pax2u

            like speaking in tongues that no one understands, or handling snakes?

          • ronaldo morrow

            speaking in tongues is a sign that the holy spirit is dwelling in you. read acts 2:38. reciting hail mary prayer 50 times is obviously a repetition. pray only to Christ. thats all you need to do. mary can’t do anything for you

          • pax2u

            vain babbling

          • pax2u

            tongues can be understood by another, babbling is just babbling

          • ronaldo morrow

            yup and one can also speak in tongues which edifies yourself. paul was saying if you speak tongues in church there has to be someone who interprets otherwise you are only edifying yourself. its in acts. what was the sign that the holy ghost indwelled in the apostles? it was the initial speaking in tongues

          • pax2u

            unknown ramblings that no human can understand are just vain repetitions

          • The Last Trump

            Seriously. Out of all the people posting on this site, YOU posted this!? Unbelievable, little buddy! 🙂

          • pax2u

            so do you speak in tongues, in unknown ramblings or just post that way

          • ronaldo morrow

            yup and one can also speak in tongues which edifies yourself. paul was saying if you speak tongues in church there has to be someone who interprets otherwise you are only edifying yourself. its in acts. what was the sign that the holy ghost indwelled in the apostles? it was the initial speaking in tongues

          • The Last Trump

            !!……..Ohhhhh, buddy! Don’t get me started on babbling! 🙂

          • pax2u

            you are already incoherent

          • The Last Trump

            You rang? Snakes anyone? 😉

          • pax2u

            ever been bit?

          • The Last Trump

            Just by rabid Catholics! 🙂

          • pax2u

            put down the snake

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            Jesus said
            “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love topray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
            Who was he speaking of? The Pharisees and Sadducees of the Jewish faith. The Rosary is not a “babble” or worship of Mary. I say it in the privacy of my room or at Church while we all say it together on Monday evenings and while saying the 5 decades of Hail Mary I voice those words while thinking of Jesus and the Mysteries as I stated earlier. I’m a convert to Catholicism, not a cradle Catholic. I don’t just go along to get along with the others, seems to me many cradle Catholics just Babble prayers without knowing their true meaning and worth, not being a cradle Catholic is a bad thing just my humble opinion and observation.

          • Kristina

            Our Lord prayed the same prayer three times in the garden before being arrested. From our Lord’s example saying the same prayer more than once is not what is being referred to here.

          • Neiman

            Se Ronaldo below.

            The Bible tells us that Mary was blessed by being the mother of the human tabernacle of Christ, nary a word about adoration or prayer to her.

          • Don Fass

            TRUTH is catholic or protestant, most of all you’re arguing about isn’t BIBLICAL, ever discussed in the Bible, ever created by Jesus..just empty made up centuries later doctrine.

          • Ed Rexroad

            God still chooses to use all of His children. Mary was blessed to be used by God, as I am blessed still today to be used by God.

          • Catherine Wood

            Thomas Collins Jr June The bible says don’t throw pearls before swine. They won’t listen. They refuse to even make an attempt at understanding.

          • The Last Trump

            Was Mary without sin? Did she suffer torture, humiliation and death for your sins and mine? Was she qualified to? No. She was a mere vessel, and a woman like any other. Her SON is the One who deserves our adoration. No other. And as GOD He was the only one qualified as a sinless offering for your sin and mine. Where do the scriptures direct us to honour and adore Mary!? They do not. They point to Jesus in nearly every chapter and verse of the Bible. Wasting your prayers on a dead woman who once birthed the world’s Messiah is just another subtle victory of the Devil. Always desperate to get our eyes off Jesus. However it can be achieved. 🙁

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            For the last and final time, Christ is my Savior and I pray to God, the Triune God. I petition and venerate the Virgin Mother and she is not dead but in heaven with her Son, Saints and Angels.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s right, Christ is your Saviour. For the last and final time, avoid any practices of the Catholic Church that would have you praying, petitioning or venerating anyone else. Not Biblical.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            Thanks for the advice, but Nah, I will Pray to whomever I want to and only Worship God and Pray to him first and foremost. Think I will stick to the Church that Jesus started, the One True Apostolic Catholic Church. God Bless and Merry Christmas.

            http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm

            http://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/prayer

          • The Last Trump

            🙂 To you and yours as well.

        • pastoredsmith

          The Pope says? What about “Baptists say?” Since I am one, I can say this.
          “We worship God for His sake, not ours….” Victoria Osteen.
          “Baptists are leading people to hell.” Leader of a Methodist denomination. I won’t name him publicly.
          “Pentecostals are preaching heresy.” A Baptist Preacher on TV.
          My point? The Pope is not God. He says and does things that are sinful. So, as in the case of the woman caught in the act of adultery and thrown at the feet of Jesus, I say to you, “Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.”
          You are fighting the wrong enemy. Satan is the enemy. He laughs when Christians fight among themselves. He is laughing now at those who wish to further demolish any hope for unity in the Christian Church, and hopefully bring in some of the hypocrites who will listen to a loving, caring body of Christ.

          • Neiman

            Read the End Times Prophecies when it speaks of a one-world religion and not once does God talk about organized religious organization joining together for any good purpose, any such ecumenical spirit is anti-Christ. While the true Church, the members of the Body of Christ by true conversion, are one in Spirit as to all the fundamentals of the Gospel.

          • Kim

            Well, I would agree with you, BUT I listen to WArren all the time and well, nope. Haven’t heard him say anything about a one World religion. Nope, not a bit. In fact, he preaches the same thing my pastor preaches and he’s not into one world religion. You might want to actually LISTEN to Warren before spreading lies about him.

          • Neiman

            Well of course he would never use those words, he knows what they mean and would avoid them at all costs; but that is exactly what this Ecumenical Movement is all about, even though most of them would deny that goal. Warren and other protestant leaders are working hard to unite the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church by working on so-called shared goals and the Pope is trying to bring in Islam and all other religions on the same phony basis and that is the One-World religion.

            Warren has shown signs of compromising the Biblical faith on other issues, he is seeking money, power, celebrity and a false sense of leading in the Christian Church – he is headed away from Christ.

          • James

            Compromised on what issues? Pastor Warren tithes 90% of his income, drives an old beat up car, turns down many interviews and public appearances so as not to glorify himself, but to glorify God, has planted Christian Churches all over the world, and teaches strict biblical doctrine including the sanctity of marriage (Which many protestant churches have caved on). He is right on this.

            I know many Catholics that are more devoted to Christ than 90% of Protestants. Although I do not agree with many of their practices, I have to admit that they are in agreement of the same basic principle biblical doctrines. So many ‘Christians’ are so busy trying to divide the church of believers instead of reaching out to the lost, that they are unaware that they are being used by Satan.

            And I do not think that the Pope is trying to unite Islam and Christianity by any means. Maybe he is just trying to put to an end the centuries of killing in the “name of God” which Christians are just as guilty of as the Muslims. I do not believe that the Pope is the ‘Holy Father’ by any means, but I do believe that in his heart he is listening to God. How many ‘protestant’ believers can honestly say that?

          • Neiman

            You have free will to believe what you want. Ecumenism is another word for a one-world religion,. Warren calls the Pope the Holy Father, thus placing him on God’s Throne and casting down God as Satan wants to do.

            Which god is the Pope listening to? Not the one that went to Calvary’s Cross , not the God of grace, which god? I would suggest Lucifer.

          • Don Fass

            Neiman judges the heart of the Pope? According to Jesus, maybe Neiman is really following the Devil.

          • jcrosby35

            Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

            Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

            Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

            Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

            Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.

            Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

            Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

            Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

            Do you also want the muslims and their false moon god. Do you want to as Christian to join and accept them and their god along with sharia law?
            Pray for decrement. Allah is not Jehovah. The muslim ways are not the Christian ways. What fellowship does light have with darkness. (NONE) Jesus Christ is Lord. John 14:6

          • Sherry Omalley

            GOD CALLS ALL OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, HIS CHURCH, INTO UNITY THOUGH HAVE DIFFERENT ROLES

          • jcrosby35

            So what is your point Sherry? Do you understand that the body of Christ has a head? Our head is Jesus Christ, our job is to lift Him up and to bare fruit for the glory of God. It is the Holy Spirit who empowers the body with different gifts to make the body complete and empowered. Look to Christ not to some false profit seeking to unify a one world religion. Only Jesus Christ saves. John 14:6

          • Brenda

            True!

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            PROFIT!!! Great pun! I am sure that you meant to say “prophet”, meaning one who speaks the word of God, and works for justice,

          • detonat3

            Are you done yelling? The Church does not need idolatry of Mary.

          • cathy

            Mary was given to us at the foot of the cross by the lord jesus, do you recall his words, Here is your mother. mother here is your son,

            also if you look at revelations you will notice that it is mary who comes with 12 stars at her head,revelations 12;1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
            it is ignorance of other religions that deny the mother of God her respect. We do not pray to Mary as our saviour, she simply intercedes on our behalf when we require extra help the lord will listen to over us, idolatry , seems to me everything is labelled idolatry these days.it is ignorance that people don’t understand others or don’t know their bibles,

          • Mark Evans

            God does NOT have a mother. If he did, then who is God’s father?

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Is Jesus God? Yes!
            Is Jesus human? Yes!
            Was He born of Mary and the Holy Spirit? Yes!
            Are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ONE BEING? Yes!
            Did God, in His Omnipotence, engender Himself in the womb of Mary? Yes.
            John 1: 1 – 4.
            Luke 1: 26 – 35.
            Mark 1: 1 – 11.
            Matthew 1: 18.

          • wandakate

            MARK EVANS: GOD is the FATHER. JESUS was the son, and the HOLY SPIRIT was to be the comforter that would lead us into all truth. By GOD’s miracle and the workings of the Holy Spirit Mary was to be the mother of JESUS. She was the earthly mother and Joseph was the earthly father, but JESUS knew that He was from GOD and that He had a FATHER up in Heaven. He said, I have come to do the will of the FATHER. I can do nothing without the FATHER. The FATHER and I are one (meaning of one accord, of like mind), they both had the same agenda/goal. JESUS went to the garden to pray to the FATHER. He “did not” go there and pray to himself.
            You must think about that. So no GOD has no mother or father, GOD is GOD the FATHER and He always was, he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last, the alpha and the omega. It was JESUS that had a heavenly FATHER, and he had Mary and Joseph as earthly parents. They are equal but separate. In my opinion and according to scripture No they are not one as in the trinity…
            JESUS was our advocate to the FATHER, not to Himself. Some want to say that Mary is the intercessor, but that is incorrect, it was JESUS alone. He said, I am the way, the truth and the light, and NO MAN will come to the FATHER but by (though) me.

          • cathy

            you fool mark I suggest you study the bible Let’s start at the beginning of the Bible. She is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, as the Woman whose offspring (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Satan).
            Genesis 3:15:
            “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

            We see her, again, in a prophecy in the book of Isaiah.
            Isaiah 7:14:
            “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

            First, she is greeted by the Angel Gabriel. How did the Angel greet her?
            Luke 1:28:
            “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women!”

            Mary the mother of Jesus was described by God as “highly favored” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “highly favored” comes from a single Greek word, which essentially means “much grace.” Mary received God’s grace.

            Elizabeth, Mary’s relative, praised Mary in Luke 1:42-44, 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped …
            God is the father of Jesus, God himself came to us as man, so we can know him first hand, he was born of the virgin Mary, he is the Greta I AM.
            for their is 3 in the one, the holy trinity, the father the son and the holy ghost, all are one, you may look at it as water ice and steam, all are one in different forms, this is the mystery of God,
            read your bible in order to get closer to truth
            you need Jesus to save you. for if you declare with your mouth and heart that Jesus is lord, who died on the cross and rose again on the third day ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the father then you are saved.

          • wandakate

            CATHY: Mary I agree was “special”. Above all women of her day to be chosen by GOD to be JESUS mother, however Mary died. Why do you pray to “dead” people? JESUS is the mediator (intercessor) to GOD the FATHER. How is Mary going to help you? I agree that people should know their bibles, and my Holy Bible tells me that all of the people who have “ever” died are dead in their graves. THE DEAD PEOPLE KNOW NOTHING… Mary isn’t in heaven. She’s doesn’t have a clue as to what you need or what is going on here on earth. She CANNOT help you with anything. She even said to JESUS, “You will raise them up on the last day”. She knew that she would be part of the resurrection at the last day Cathy. You’ve been deceived. YOU are the one who needs to study the scriptures. If you need to know exactly where they are located let me know and I will type them for you on another comment.

          • cathy

            what a stupid joke, Mary isn’t in heaven are you for real? do you not know your scriptures, Jesus said to the criminal who died next to him Luke 23;43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

            he never said your asleep till I come again, your reading the old testament, do you realise we live under the new covenant of God that was formed at the foot of the cross? obviously not , and so many of you fall into this trap. we live by grace not law. all these things you people declare are legalism,

            Jesus death opened the gates of heaven for us, we do not sleep in the ground we go to heaven when we die if we believe in Jesus, And who is more worthy than the mother of God to be in heaven ? for she is blessed amongst all women,

            We acknowledge her selflessness in giving us Jesus,

            Mary is mentioned in
            Luke 1:46 – 1:55
            Luke Chapter 1
            46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
            47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
            48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
            49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.
            50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.
            51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
            52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.
            53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
            54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;
            55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

            Revelation 12:1 – And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

            It tells us that a “sword would pierce her soul” (her pain of Christ’s passion), in order that the heart’s of many would be revealed!
            Luke 2:34-35:
            “…and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, ‘Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.’”
            It tells us that “all generations would call her “blessed” yet this is not carried out today by some “Christians” as they tend to disregard Mary as ever being important.

            Luke 1:48:
            “…for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.”
            It tells us that Mary stood at the very foot of the cross as her Holy Son died. And He gave her to us as a spiritual mother.

            John 19:25-27:
            “So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”

            I could go on all day proving this to you but you don’t know your scriptures because you focus on the old testament which is no longer valid for us,

            we are living under the covenant of Grace and you my friend don’t understand this nor want to acknowledge this,

            Mary is the mother of God and she is blessed above all women, show respect for in dire times in judgement when your condemned for not believing only she can persuade her son to forgive you., the verses you chose are old, and are between god and man, not the son of god and man, you have much to learn, like I said accusing others is from ignorance and your legalism is sinful.

            Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
            5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
            2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
            3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
            4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

          • wandakate

            CATHY: First of all JESUS didn’t go to Heaven or paradise the day He died. That was written in Hebrew. When it was translated into English it had no commas. JESUS said this, “I tell you this today, you will be with me in paradise”. YES, JESUS told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise meaning one day you will be. JESUS didn’t lie, he just didn’t go anywhere that day except into the tomb. He remained there for 3 days and 3 nights. As for people sleeping, it has NOTHING at all to do with the old testament. Why don’t you read about it in the Bible. NEW TESTAMENT by the way…
            John 5:28-29…Marvel not at this; for the our is coming, in which all that are in THEIR GRAVES, shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (and their reward comes then, not at their death).
            John 6:39…Of all which He hath given me I should lose none, and will raise them up at the last day. ( They are being raised up from the grave where they were).
            John 11:11-14…Our friend Lazarus “sleepeth”; but I go, that I may awaken him out of “SLEEP”. Then said JESUS unto them, plainly, Lazarus is “dead”. (He wasn’t in heaven, he was dead, in the tomb).
            Acts 2:29,34…The patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. (David didn’t go to heaven at his death, he was still in his tomb).
            and from the Old Testament…
            Job 14:12,21…So man lies down, and rises not; till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their “SLEEP”. His sons come to honor, and he knows it not.
            Psalm 146:4…His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; and in that very day his thoughts perish. ( He returned to the earth, he didn’t go to heaven).
            Ecclesiastes 9:5,and 10…For the living know that they shall die; but the DEAD KNOW NOTHING. There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goes.
            (When we die everything for that person ceases to exist).
            Daniel 12:2…And many of them that “sleep” in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (When we did, we don’t awaken until the second coming of JESUS).
            And finally, WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE, BUT WE WILL BE JUDGED BY OUR WORKS. Read the book of James…in the New Testament of course.

          • Amy Hall

            Wandakate, The way I understand it; after Jesus died, he went to “Sheol” (which was the place where all the dead went in Old Testament times.) The unsaved before Christ’s death went to Sheol as you see in the story of Lazarus and Abraham.
            The righteous (saved) went to Abrahams Bosom. The three days he was in the tomb, it is written that Jesus descended to Abraham’s bosom and took all of the Old Testament Saints to heaven away from “Abrahams Bosom”. He took all those saints who looked forward to and believed that God would send a Messiah as written and promised in the Old Testament. On the 3rd day, he rose “the one new man”, that’s why they call our Lord, “The last Adam”. He rose (for us) a new type of human who will not see corruption, and we are promised at the resurrection (Rapture), that we will be “like him”. Like, not totally, as he is the Messiah, God, right?
            All souls are in heaven in spirit form waiting for the resurrection of the dead. So, Mary is in heaven, very aware of everything, not in any kind of “soul sleep”. And, she is for sure, not in purgatory because there is no such thing, never was, never will be. It is Jesus who has the keys to heaven and hell, always had them, always will, and when Jesus said to Peter, the context was, “Belief in the Messiah” is the basis for salvation alone. The resurrection goes in stages: 1.) resurrection of all true believers from Acts 2 forward at the Rapture of the Church. (dead and alive), 2.) Resurrection of the two witnesses in Revelations. 3.) Resurrection of the Old Testament Saints. 4.) Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints. “Blessed is he who partakes of the 1st resurrection.” The final resurrection is for all those in Hell to be joined with their bodies and judged.

          • cathy

            I’ve already answered this question, no where in the bible does it state we lay in limbo, if you understand the bible and acknowledge the lords death on the cross all this stuff you are stating is now void, for we are now under the new testament and Jesus broke the law, and the death, we do not just die and stay there this is a misconception of preachers who dwell only on the old testament,

            im not sure what happened to my reply I posted about this as I cant find it now. and I really couldn’t be bothered ret typing it.

            but I want to point out this to you there are many levels in heaven when Jesus died on the cross he did away with death., the only death you will see is in the last judgement when Satan and his army is destroyed.

            the death you speak of was infact prior to Jesus resurrection, its very complicated,. We are transformed into a new body in Christ, we simply do not die for Jesus ended death. many are unaware of this and use only the old testament to show we lie in limbo which is a false teaching

            Before Christ’s death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible “torment,” and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom.”

            When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and “took captivity captive.” This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ’s salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven.

            “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Mt. 12:40).

            “Because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay” (Acts 2:27).

            “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” (Eph. 4:8-9).

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Catholics believe in the Eternal Moment. We pray for those who have died, to help them into heaven when their own works and faith were insufficient purification on earth. We ASK them for support in the same way that we OFFER them support because we believe in the Communion of Saints, which is integral to the concept of the Eternal Moment.

          • wandakate

            MARIE VAN GOMPEL ALSBERGAS: Sorry but when people die they die with their sins. We die once, and after that the judgment. We can’t pray people into heaven. They were saved by grace, they will be judged by their own works/deeds. You say that you ask them for support…WHY on earth are you praying to “dead” people? They are unaware of anything. They are for the most part buried and sleeping in their graves. They don’t see or hear anything that is going on so that is a waste of time if there ever was any.
            That is a false teaching, as nowhere in the scriptures are we told to pray to people that are dead. The dead know nothing. There are many passages in scripture in the old as well as the new testament that tell us that the dead are not in heaven yet they are still in their graves waiting on the last trumpet and for JESUS return. I think you need to read a real bible and get your facts straight.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Which Bible would you recommend, Wandakate, and why?

            Which passages would you recommend?

            Are there any ancient Fathers of the Church whose writings you would recommend?

            I am really interested in how you support your assertions considering they are against what is written in Luke, which recounts the story of Lazarus and the rich man. It shows people in Hades awaiting the resurrection either in comfort or torment. The Book of Revelation writes about God and the angels versus Satan and demons in an epic battle at the end of times when all souls are judged. There is mention of ghostly bodies of past prophets, and the transfiguration.

            Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335 – c. 395) insisted that that the saved suffer purification after death, in connection with which he wrote of “purgatorial flames”. The noun “purgatorium” (Latin: place of cleansing) is used for the first time to describe a state of painful purification of the saved after life. The same word in adjectival form (purgatorius -a -um, cleansing), which appears also in non-religious writing, was already used by Christians such as Augustine of Hippo (13 November 354 – 28 August 430) and Gregory Dialogus (c. 540 – 12 March 604) to refer to an after-death cleansing. What do you know that they, who read the Scriptures in their original languages, didn’t know?

          • Heidi K.

            Amen and Amen, wandakate.
            Unity in our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST!

          • wandakate

            HEIDI K: Glad we’re in agreement here. As you can see Cathy has not responded to my comment yet. She may know deep down that I’m right and she doesn’t know now what to say. I do believe there will be many who will not make it into the Kingdom of GOD. JESUS even said, “Not all who say to me LORD LORD will enter the Kingdom of GOD, but only those to do the will of my FATHER.” That was a warning right there, that those who do not “obey” the word of GOD won’t be there, even though they thought they would.

          • Heidi K.

            I couldn’t agree with you more, wandakate.
            GOD bless

          • cathy

            ive replied to this already somewhere

          • Amy Hall

            Mary was at the foot of Jesus at the cross ,and Jesus being sinless made sure his Mother would be taken care of by appointing John to watch over her. She moved into John’s house that day. That’s it, literal interpretation, nothing at all needs to be added.

            The 12 stars at the head of “The woman” represents the 12 tribes of Israel, and a history of Israel is given of her. That’s it!

            There is nothing in the scriptures to say Mary intercedes on our behalf, this is something that the Catholic church has put in your head through the Catholic re-written added to, subtracted from true scripture. Jesus is our high priest, it is he who intercedes for us alone. We are to follow procedure and pray to God the Father, in the name of Jesus only.

            Show me in the original scriptures where Jesus has raised Mary to a high-priest who intercedes for us? Mary was human, and because she was born human, of the flesh, she was a sinner as well. When Mary and Joseph took Jesus to present him to the Priest at the temple, the Priest blessed her and Joseph, not Jesus. Why? Because he was and is sinless: God. Mary needed to be blessed for forgiveness of her sins. She is not a deity. When the disciples asked him, “How should we pray, he said, To God, the Father. Ask God in my name”. (And you never once saw Jesus worshipping his Mother, ever. He never asked her to intercede for him. He always prayed to his Father.
            1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
            (when Jesus fell down to worship an angel like being), he said”
            Revelation 22:9 “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

          • cathy

            there is plenty in the bible that tells you she is blessed amongst all women etc. its ignorance that leads you to denying her respect. she was given 12 tribes of isreal do you know what that means? obviously not. you people that declare all this nonsense live under the law and under leagalism beware fojudging others and living like this

            Let’s start at the beginning of the Bible. She is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15, as the Woman whose offspring (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Satan).
            Genesis 3:15:
            “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
            We see her, again, in a prophecy in the book of Isaiah.
            Isaiah 7:14:
            “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”

            First, she is greeted by the Angel Gabriel. How did the Angel greet her?
            Luke 1:28:
            “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee! Blessed art thou among women!”

            We acknowledge her selflessness in giving us Jesus,

            Mary is mentioned in
            Luke 1:46 – 1:55
            Luke Chapter 1
            46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
            47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
            48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
            49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.
            50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.
            51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
            52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.
            53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
            54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;
            55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

            Revelation 12:1 – And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

            It tells us that a “sword would pierce her soul” (her pain of Christ’s passion), in order that the heart’s of many would be revealed!
            Luke 2:34-35:
            “…and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, ‘Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel and for a sign that is spoken against (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.’”
            It tells us that “all generations would call her “blessed” yet this is not carried out today by some “Christians” as they tend to disregard Mary as ever being important.

            Luke 1:48:
            “…for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.”
            It tells us that Mary stood at the very foot of the cross as her Holy Son died. And He gave her to us as a spiritual mother.

            John 19:25-27:
            “So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”

            I could go on all day proving this to you but you don’t know your scriptures because you focus on the old testament which is no longer valid for us,

            we are living under the covenant of Grace and you my friend don’t understand this nor want to acknowledge this,

            Mary is the mother of God and she is blessed above all women, show respect for in dire times in judgement when your condemned for not believing only she can persuade her son to forgive you., the verses you chose are old, and are between god and man, not the son of god and man, you have much to learn, like I said accusing others is from ignorance and your legalism is sinful.

            Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
            5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
            2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
            3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
            4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

          • Amy Hall

            You Catholics remind me of Mormons. People point this out to you, and you deny that you indeed are worshipping her much more than Jesus! You say, “Well, we honor Mary, we don’t worship her.” But Mary is all you guys talk about! (Respect and worship are two different things.) Truth be known you’re really worshipping Isis, wife of Tammuz! So, Love Mary more than Jesus? That love is going to be tested. Consider yourself warned.

          • Kim

            So Amy, you now know what is in a man’s heart? Amazing how God died and put you in charge. SMH. And you say that others need to read the scriptures. Man, I just don’t get you people. So many folks who seem to understand a man’s heart. Crazy. How other people worship God is between them and God, you aren’t invited to that party. You don’t know what is in their hearts. God never once asked you to dismiss a group of people as sinful. Go ahead, twist the scriptures to fuel your hatred. But you’re still not in charge of another person’s heart. If they are on the wrong track, then you need to pray for them, not condemn them. You claim others need to read the bible, when you have no clue what it says.

          • Amy Hall

            I don’t mean to come across as hateful, because I don’t hate anyone, truly. You’re right, Jesus knows what is in a mans heart, and there are true believers in all denominations. I simply find it disrespectful that a religion venerates Mary more than Jesus, but you all say you don’t venerate her, but you simply “honor” her.
            Well, asking her to intercede for you to the Father is what Jesus did. He is the deity, not her.
            So, I too take it personal when people tell me to “read the bible”, because I do ! I do not read or believe in bibles that were written by men outside of the original and call it truth. I also think it’s untrue that the Catholic Church is the original church, because the original church were mostly Jews. Catholic Church began with Constantine who allowed all pagan religions to be mixed in with Christianity , the foundations that the Apostles established through the instruction of Jesus Christ. (The Jews can’t stand “Christians” because of Catholics, can you understand why? Go study the terrible history that “Christmas” has with it, study how the Popes joined with Hitler, etc. etc. (No, I won’t go near a Catholic Church, nor would I worship with other Catholics but that’s just me. (peace!)

          • arc ordanza

            Did the Emperor Constantine found the Catholic Church?
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc40KWId_6A

          • Amy Hall

            “Mystery”, “Babylon the Great”, “Mother of all Harlots and abominations of the earth.” (Which shows us that the Catholic Church is no mystery at all).

          • Greg

            “See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Ignatius of Antioch, 107 A.D.)

            You’re right. The truth is there if you’re willing to (diligently) search for it. 😉

            Peace be with you.

          • Amy Hall

            I’m saying that there is no way in HELL that I would affiliate myself with the Catholic church, based on it’s history alone!

          • cathy

            Amy what a load of rubbish, Your not catholic so don’t make accusations that arnt true. we worship Jesus and always have, look at your own flaws before judging others, the protestant denomination moved away from the catholic church and is the teaching of martin Luther, not the doctrine of God, you were warned to not listen to other teaching yet here you are trying to teach lies to others, romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
            We do not worship Mary as you try to charge, understand things before being so gullible.
            your taught lies of being saved by works but I can prove to you ow wrong all that is, it is clearly written in the bible that you are saved by the gift of grace lest any man should boast.
            don’t be like Muslims who read the bible yet remain deceived, their Koran tells them that they worship Baal, and he is the greatest of all deceivers yet they ignore this, Your doing the same thing.
            Peter the lords disciple is the rock of the catholic church and like all other denominations even the catholic church has fallen into error of centuries, But it does not change the fact that our teaching remain the word of God, through his bible.
            even Jews are in error for they are still waiting on the messiah, they have not received Jesus as their king, therefore they still live by the law,
            do you even know what that means?
            we have a new covenant formed at the foot of cavalry, yet many don’t understand this, not even Catholics, we are now at the end of time, and being so judgemental and accusing others of errors when you yourself have many is not a safe thing to do.
            you see this is the plan to cause division amongst Christians so they can implement their NWO religion, Chrislam the religion of Satan.
            be warned don’t fall into this trap. repent and stay close to what you know of Jesus he will guide you, and don’t Judge others where you have no authority to do so

          • Amy Hall

            Cathy, there are no covenants made with gentiles. There is Grace by Faith alone, but it is fulfilled. The written and signed Covenants were made between God and the Jews. There are a total of 5 covenants ; 4 are unconditional covenants, and 1 was conditional. Do you know what they are? Do you read the King James bible or do you read the Catholic bible? Let’s not forget the subject of this discussion. Rick Warren (new age), Mormons, J.W’s. , Protestants, Martin Luther types, married to Church and state, and your Pope are right now moving to join ALL religions together into a one world entity under the guise of “Love and unity”, Islam included……(are you going to join this church ?)

          • Amy Hall

            Cathy, when Martin Luther moved away from the Catholics, it was because he got ahold of a bible! The Roman Catholic church of the dark ages wouldn’t allow it to get in the hands of the laity, so people had to depend on what the Pope told them the bible said. That’s why they call it the “Dark Ages”. (No difference today, but you have original bibles today, anybody can dig in and that’s why you see people just so against what the Catholics preach. Especially the Jews! Look at what the Catholics did to them. Wow, No excuses. The truth is there if you want it.

          • cathy

            LOL you definitely don’t know your bible or your own religion, martin Luther did not know the bible and taught incorrectly, first mistake changing its meaning we are saved by the grace of God not by works, god warns of people who change his doctrine,16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
            this is why the protestant church is so judgemental of others and tries to point accusations at the catholic church, you see to accuse others you need to know your own religion first don’t have a clue about being a protestant, because if you did you would look up verses in the bible that show the error of your teaching look for verses on grace. if you need help I can show you the truth about being saved by grace and not works, Grace

            When you catch yourself calling a Protestant a “Christian,” stop and correct yourself. Call him a Protestant. It is a way to affirm that you do not accept the Protestant errors and that you acknowledge it for the terrible thing it is: Protestants denied many Catholic dogmas and for this reason caused that first major crack in the unity of the Catholic Church that caused untold damage to Christendom and the perdition of those souls adhering to it.

            The Protestant sect started as a revolt, protesting the Church of Christ and, pretending to accept Christ without Peter, the authority He established on earth. With this split, they left the Church and became heretics. This used to be clearly said and understood, without sentimental fear of offending one’s neighbors or relatives: A Protestant is a heretic because he severed himself from the Body of the Church. He is not a Christian, and certainly not a “good Christian.”

            Well, despite these subjective interpretations, the inspired words of Scriptures provide an unambiguous defense that the custody of the vineyard has been committed by Christ to the Catholic Church alone. Let me quote just a few verses:

            “He who hears you (Peter) hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me (Lk 10:16).” It could not be clearer: the Protestant who rejects the head, rejects Christ himself, and should not be granted the name Christian.

            Christ establishes one Church with a single head: “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matt 16:19).

            St. Paul is severe in his condemnation of false teachers, e.g. Protestants: “If any man preaches any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed” (Gal 1: 9).

            In another passage he instructs Catholics to remove themselves from the bad society of non-Catholics: “And we charge you, brethren, in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the Tradition which they have received of us” (2 Thess 3:6).

            The Apostle St. John forbade any intercourse with heretics: “If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house or welcome him” (2 Jo 1:10)”

            Holy Scriptures are clear on the point that only those who belong to the one Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, can rightfully be considered Christians.
            I suggest you do some research before opening your mouth

          • Sheila

            What ?????????????????????????

          • Kelly Weblerker

            You’re so full of….

          • Greg

            “You say, ‘Well, we honor Mary, we don’t worship her.’ But Mary is all you guys talk about!”

            Amy, that’s the profound irony in all this – that it’s actually Protestants who talk about Mary way more than Catholics do. I can’t tell you how many hundreds of times I’ve poured over a Protestant-Catholic dispute of one kind or another and been confounded to see the Protestant going, “Mary, Mary, Mary! All you guys ever talk about is Mary! Mary this, Mary that, Mary the other thing! Mary, Mary, Mary!”

            The Catholic: “Ummm…so, love to talk about Jesus for a little bit, if you’re up for it? Baptism? Confession of sins?” The papacy…”

            The Protestant: “No! We’re to busy talking about Mary! It’s always Mary, Mary, Mary! ‘Mary is like unto God’ (not Catholic teaching), ‘Mary is God’s creator’ (not Catholic teaching)…Mary, Mary, Mary!”

            For Protestants apparently, yeah… :-S…Not for orthodox practicing Catholics.

          • Amy Hall

            I’ll talk Baptism and confession of sins with you. (According to the ancient scriptures, King James),as long as it’s not the Catholic bible).

          • Greg

            Ok! I don’t have any problems with using the King James (especially since the original included all 73 books that are supposed to be in the Bible), but am also curious as to what makes you think Catholic Bible translations are any different than Protestant ones? Where do you think Catholic translations come from?

          • Amy Hall

            66 books. There is to be no additions or subtractions. The Catholic bible is not the bible. Why would an church organization have bibles different from the ancient Hebrew scriptures?

            Proverbs 30:6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

          • Greg

            Why would an organization have bibles different from the ancient Hebrew scriptures? Well…If you’re Christian, the answer would be because the Hebrew Bible is not complete in and of itself, obviously. There is the whole New Testament that needs adding to it, for one thing. And then there are the Greek versions of some Old Testament texts that need adding as well – or so thought Jesus and the apostles who quoted from the Septuagint anyway.

            You’re not of the opinion that the same Jews who rejected Christ Himself as God’s word were actually fit to assess God’s word in the scriptures…are you? 😉

          • Greg

            Why is my response to this question not showing up?

          • Greg

            I’ve responded to this already, but it does not seem to have taken for some reason??

            Let me try posting THIS and see if it works and we’ll go from there?

          • brireward

            Forget the bible!! Read Faith of Our Fathers by Jurgen. These 3 books have letters from many successors to the apostles and priests are also successors to the apostles. These books tell exactly what the “father” wrote about what they taught and how they lived. It is much more understandable than the bible. The bible too was only written mostly by Paul. He was the only one that could read and write and even wrote under t he name of the other apostles. He was an adamant, radical Jew and when he became a Christian , he didn’t change his nature, he was a radical, adamant Christian So read on a few centuries at more voices who were chosen to teach the word of God -Christ knew the original apostles weren’t going to live forever and sent the Holy Spirit to the successors as He did the first apostles in the Upper Room. You will find the catholic church teachings right down through the centuries.
            ALSO IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, THE DEVIL HAS BEEN LOOSE SINCE 1885 and is poisoning minds against God. He hates God and humans and will bring everyone he can to hell with him.
            PLEASE GOD ENLIGHTEN YOUR “SHEEP”

          • Sheila

            What ?????????????????????

          • Amy Hall

            Cathy, with all these scriptures, I see you worshipping Mary, not the Messiah. It’s sad.

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You anti-Catholic bigots are the worst. You misrepresent everything Catholics do. I never worshiped Mary the whole time I was a Catholic.

          • Kristina

            The new testament must always be read in light of the old. The New Testament is prefigured in the Old, and the Old is fulfilled in the new. This is how the early Church read the Bible, this is how they wrote their hymns, this is how they said their prayers.

            Genesis 3:15
            15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

            The term “seed” in this verse is the only time in the entire bible where “seed” is used to refer to the woman’s seed and not the males. Throughout the Old Testament we see shadows of women of Israel literary crushing the head of their enemies. A shadow of what is to come.

            At the foot of the tree of knowledge after the fall, the “woman” (now called Eve) becomes “mother of all the living.”

            Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? For the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth: a woman shall compass a man.”

            As the first Eve came from The first Adam; the new Adam comes from the new Eve.

            Jesus, Himself never calls Mary anything else but “woman”. In calling her “woman” He is revealing her as the woman of Genesis 3:15. Mary always points us to “Who” Jesus is.

            Just as Eve is called “woman” at the foot of the tree of knowledge, Mary is called “woman” at the foot of the tree of life (the cross) John19:26-27; as she becomes mother to all believers LIVING in her Son, Jesus. Revelation 12:17

          • Kristina

            I would also like to point out that scripture reveals Mary to be the New Ark of the New covenant. The new is prefigured in the old, the old fulfilled in the new. If Jesus is the new Moses, than Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. The new testament has deliberate OT echoes:
            2 Samuel 6:2
            And David arose, and went with all the people who were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who dwelleth between the cherubims.
            Luke 1:39
            And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah,
            2 Samuel 6:9
            And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
            Luke 1:43
            And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
            2 Samuel 6:11
            And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.
            Luke 1:56
            And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.
            2 Samuel 6:16
            And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
            Luke 1:41
            And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
            If that wasn’t enough consider: the OT ark contained the law/word, manna from heaven and the staff of Aaron. The NT ark(Mary) contained the word made flesh (Jesus), the Bread of Life that came down from heaven, and the eternal high priest.

          • Amy Hall

            There is no “new” Ark of the covenant, you’ve just twisted scripture to suit your need to practice “Mariolatry.”
            Good-Bye. (shaking the dust of Jezebel away).

          • Kristina

            No twisting needed. These are deliberate echoes of OT; which the early Church recognized. The New Testament is hidden in the Old. Typology 101. Just sharing information. Remember even Saul became Paul.

          • Amy Hall

            “And yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God’s Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another.”
            (39 Articles of Religion. Article XX. OF THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH)

            “But if the church proceed further to make any article of the faith, beside the Scripture, or direct not the form of life according to the same; then it is not the pillar of the truth, nor the church of Christ, but the synagogue of Satan, and the temple of antichrist which both erreth itself, and bringeth into error as many as do follow it.”

            Archbishop Thomas Cranmer
            (Works of Archbishop Cranmer, Parker Society I, p 377)

          • Kristina

            Don’t you think it’s a bit ironic (maybe even humorous) that I quoted directly from scripture and your quoting an English reformer?

          • brireward

            I can’t believe the word used as “Mariolatry”!! You don’t respect the mother of God? Christ was God you know. Suppose someone would say something really nasty about your mother? Would you care (I am supposing she was a good person and if you are a mother, a good person and your kids wouldn’t like someone “putting you down”?

          • Amy Hall

            Greek-Roman myth:
            Isis was the first daughter of Geb, god of the Earth, and Nut, goddess of the Sky, and she was born on the fourth intercalary day. She married her brother, Osiris, and she conceived Horus with him. Isis was instrumental in the resurrection of Osiris when he was murdered by Set. Using her magical skills, she restored his body to life after having gathered the body parts that had been strewn about the earth by Set.

            This myth became very important during the Greco-Roman period. For example it was believed that the Nile Riverflooded every year because of the tears of sorrow which Isis wept for Osiris. Osiris’s death and rebirth was relived each year through rituals. The worship of Isis eventually spread throughout the Greco-Roman world, continuing until the suppression of paganism in the Christian era. The popular motif of Isis suckling her son Horus, however, lived on in a Christianized context as the popular image of Mary suckling her infant son Jesus from the fifth century onward.[5]

          • cathy

            tans version he wants you to believe, Mary is mentioned throughout the bible a number of times, yet many like you are not aware of this fact, there are counterfeits and lies out there just like there are about Jesus as well, all made up by Satan himself,
            read your scriptures you’ll see, and important one is in revelations where Mary comes with 12 crowned with 12 stars, funny how when you seek you find.

          • Kim

            I think you need to read the scriptures also. God’s word also says don’t lie about others. That’s what you’re doing about the Catholics. How many Catholics have posted on this board on what they are doing and not doing, and yet you still shove in their faces that they are sinful. I think you need to start reading scriptures.

          • cathy

            obviously your a protestant, Don’t lie about others _EACTLY SO WHY THE LIES ABOUT THE CATHOLICS> who is deluded by lies. YOU, we are saved by gods grace not by our works do you want proof. King James Version Ephesians 2;8
            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            Romans 11:6 – And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

            I suggest people like you who pass judgement on other denominations look at their own before opening their mouth, Catholics are the one true church based straight from the disciples of Jesus, your martin Luther broke away from that and started to preach a different doctrine, being saved by works,

            Formed: The date often cited as the beginning of the Protestant movement is 1517, based on the date of Martin Luther’s first act of dissent: the public posting of his 95 Theses, criticizing Roman Catholic practices and teachings. At the time, however, Luther had no intention of starting a new Christian tradition called “Protestantism,” but hoped to reform the Catholic Church. which makes the protestant church fall in error

            Luther taught that salvation and subsequently eternity in heaven is not earned by good deeds but is received only as a free gift of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin and subsequently eternity in Hell

            did you know that this makes the protestant church fall into error and we are warned to walk away from such teachings? romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

            obviously you don’t know the bible too well.

            of course Catholics post on this wall to correct your misguided ignorant accusations of us. first we don’t bow down to statues, and never have, Just because there are statues in the church does not mean we worship them , that’s an ignorant remark, Did you know that even God himself ordered the making of cherubs and images of heaven to Solomon? there is a distinct difference between worshiping a statue and simply having them for decoration, I can show you many places where statues are in the bible, this is the ignorance of man, Just like Muslims you gullibly believe what’s dished out to you

            People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

            David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

            Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

            you know what I suggest start reading and understanding and don’t point fingers at others when you yourself are in error. You have no authority to judge others only God does,

            do you want verses that mention Mary? so you can see there is no lie involved.

            Isaiah 7:14 – Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

            Revelation 12:1 – 12:2
            And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

            Genesis 3:15, as the Woman whose offspring (Jesus) will crush the head of the serpent (Satan).

            Genesis 3:15:
            “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”
            Luke 1:41-43:
            “And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN, AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF YOUR WOMB!! [emphasis added] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

            so you see Catholics respect Mary as the mother of God and as being blessed amongst women, and she will be a great sign in the sky crowned with 12 stars like it states in revelations, we do not believe she is our saviour that’s just an ignorant remark by people who want to cause division,

            at the foot of the cross Jesus said here is your mother , mother here is your son,

            we were given Mary as mother of all, if we require anything she will be the one to convince her son to help us, just like she asked him at the wedding to change water to wine, (he did that because she asked him)

            this is her intervention if required for us, we don’t believe she is the one who leads us to god only Jesus can do this, but she can help us receive mercy from Jesus the son,

            she was a person like us but blessed highly over any of us.

            Jesus was the perfect man. As the perfect man, He would have perfectly obeyed the law, yes? Well, the law (Torah) says “honor your father and mother.” Jesus would not only honor her, but He would do it perfectly. If Jesus, the perfect man (and God) honors Mary, how can we do wrong by doing so? Now, some will say Catholics cross the line and worship Mary but that’s absurd and results from an incorrect view of worship.

            Jesus is the only person, in all of history, with the ability to choose His mother. That He chose Mary is reason enough for me!
            .

            don’t lay charges when you don’t have the authority to do so, its not your place and not Gods will

          • Amy Hall

            Cathy, even though you are of the Catholic Church, I think you do understand “Grace through Faith”, so that’s a plus! ha ha

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Cute. Fanciful, imaginative, even fictional. Luke 11: 27-28 were the inspiration for that branch of artwork. Are you complaining about the Gospel of Luke, Christians or Catholics?

          • cathy

            you don’t know your bible do you, do you realize Mary is real? do you know she is also in revelations? do you realize she is blessed amongst all women?

            I suggest you look her up in the bible. and don’t go to the old testament for we live in the new testament now

            what you speak of is the illusion of Satan in many other denominations. yes to deceive. So by this stupid accusation your stating that Jesus is also a lie for Horace had a son, therefore your either atheist or you have been deceived by Satan’s little scheme

            heres something to show you the similarities in horus and Jesus https://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/A%20Good%20Atheist%20Secularist%20Skeptical%20Book%20Collection/Parallels_between_Jesus_and_Horus_an_Egyptian_God.pdf

            its not an argument im going to get into because its complicated, but its a deception in place by Satan to deceive you from believing God exists
            Mary is real and is mentioned throughout the bible in many places don’t forget this

          • Amy Hall

            I know that the once earthly Mother of Jesus is in heaven, now “like the angels” as Jesus said all will be in heaven, much loved, of course. (Don’t forget that the least in heaven are the greatest?? ) I also believe she is happy to know her place! (not raising herself to deity status like you guys make her out to be.) That’s all I’m saying. Catholic doctrine follows old Roman pagan practices, put in place with Constantine when he married church and state which turned into the Roman Catholic church of the Dark ages who added 10 heretical practices to the “church”. All pagan religions were united together in Rome, and Christianity was simply thrown onto the pile. Even today, you see all these old Roman gods statues of Apollo, Zeus, it’s just lousy with Greek/ Roman sensual idols that people used to perform pagan rituals in front of.
            You can see the historical / prophetical implications of the churches in the book of Revelations when Jesus addresses the 7 churches. We see him address the church of Thyatira, and there is a woman named “Jezebel” that this church suffers. We don’t need to argue this any further. You are going to believe what you believe. Good Bye.

          • cathy

            I can see you don’t actually understand the catholic church at all, these herectic list you proclaim is nonsense we do not believe all the 10 things you listed that’s a misconception and lie put out by other denominations. As for zeus that’s a greek god who actually did exist, but is actualy part of satans group. it pays to know all these things, it actually has nothing to do with the catholic church.

            The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with more than 1.2 billion members worldwide.[1] It is among the oldest religious institutions in the world, and has played a prominent role in the history of Western civilisation its the one true church founded by Jesus Christ,[3][4] that its bishops are the successors of Christ’s apostles
            the catholic church is infact Christian, and is the only group that can claim was founded by the actual disciples of Jesus.

            Most ridiculous claims come from other denominations trying to pull down gods faith and increase their own popularity, This is the big downfall of all religions today to see how many they can draw in and how much money they can make instead of winning souls for God. People that take this attitude are falling head first into their trap, the next step will be to introduce a new religion called Chrislam (satans religion uniting Christians Jews and Muslims) which does not work as they worship different Gods. And have different beliefs

            now you state we put Mary as someone we worship, infact that’s incorrect to, we pray to Jesus, we acknowledge Mary different to worshiping her.

            to understand the 7 churches you first need to understand what the church is, it is the body of Christ (the people of God not denominations of religious groups.

            so ill explain it to you- they actually represent eras in time, not locations, because if you actually know all the churches in name form they are all located in the middle east. the seven churches were literal assemblies that existed in Asia Minor at the time , and that they prophetically describe seven ages extending from the apostolic church to the church of the last days.

            The Church in Ephesus: Apostolic Church (A.D. 33–100)

            The Church in Smyrna: Era of Persecution Under the Ten Caesars (A.D. 100–312)

            The Church in Pergamum: Era of Church-State Union (A.D. 312–590)

            The Church in Thyatira: Era Spanning the Middle Ages (A.D. 590–1517)

            The Church in Sardis: Protestant Reformation (A.D. 1517–1750)

            The Church in Philadelphia: Era of Revival and Great Awakening (A.D. 1750–1925)

            The Church in Laodicea: Era of “Higher Criticism” (A.D. 1900–Tribulation

            others try to associate them with specific areas and groups, and if you look at its way it is in turkey, Asia Minor if your going to look for a jezebel which in fact is only the spirit not a woman as your trying to depict, then you can actually say she’s Indian goddess. but it doesn’t work this way.

            the jezebel is only a spirit described as a woman, its not literal at all. therefore you trying to state its Mary is incorrect
            you the actual locations and original meanings of the churches

            Thyatira, seated on the river Hermus, is 61 kilometers (38 miles) from Pergamos and 51 kilometers (32 miles) from Sardis. The city was located in the northern part of Lydia of the Roman province of Asia, and bordered Mysia on the north and Lydia on the south. Thyatira, which in the Greek language means daughter, got its name in 290 B.C. in honor of the birth of King Seleucus I Nicator’s daughter. Thyatira’s modern name is Akhisar (Akhissar), which means a white colored castle.

            Thyatira was a prosperous trading town that also hosted a major cult of the pagan god Apollo (son of Zeus). The city was famous for its dyeing and was a center of the indigo trade. Its trade guilds, for which it was well known, were more organized and in far greater numbers than in any other ancient Asia Minor city. Among its ruins were found inscriptions relating to a guild of dyers. Evidence suggests these artisans made use of the madder-root for making purple-colored dyes.

            Every artisan in Thyatira belonged to a guild. Guilds were incorporated organizations that could own property in its own name and enter into contracts for construction projects. As such, they wielded a significant amount of influence. Two of the most powerful guilds were those of the coppersmiths and the dyers.

            During his second missionary journey (Acts 16:13 – 15) the apostle Paul traveled to Philippi. On a Sabbath day, he meets a woman named Lydia, from Thyatira, who is praying near a river. Lydia is a seller of purple (either of the dye or cloth dyed in this color). She listens to Paul’s preaching and becomes so convicted in God’s way of life that she, along with her entire household, are baptized (likely on the Holy Day known as Pentecost). It is likely Lydia, when she traveled back to Thyatira, helped spread the gospel throughout the city. Who is Jezebel?

            God criticizes his church in Thyatira for allowing a female, who is given the symbolic name Jezebel, to teach false doctrine to believers (Revelation 2:20 – 23). The real life Jezebel was the wife of King Ahab, considered the most evil king of ancient Israel. Her notorious life earned her the spot as the fifth most mentioned woman in the entirety of the Bible!

            Laodicea, located at the junction of several important trade routes, is 77 kilometers (48 miles) from Philadelphia (Alasehir) and 155 kilometers (96 miles) from Ephesus. A round trip visit to all the seven churches of Revelation would be 523 kilometers or 325 miles.

            The city, originally named Diospolis (‘the city of Jupiter’) and then Rhoas, was given the name Laodicea by King Antiochus II. The King, who named the city after his wife, rebuilt it and populated it with Syrians and Jews who migrated from Babylonia.

            Laodicea, like Rome, was built upon seven hills. It was one of Asia Minor’s most flourishing cities. It prospered primarily due to its trade route location, which made it a hub for large money transactions. Laodicea’s sheep were also known for their fine black wool. The city minted coinage, some of which have inscriptions showing evidence of the worship of the pagan deity Zeus and of the emperors.

            The city often suffered from earthquakes. It was completely destroyed when an earthquake occurred during the reign of Emperor Nero. The inhabitants were so wealthy that they declined Roman assistance to rebuild the city and instead opted to quickly rebuild it at their own expense.

            The city’s number of believers in the early New Testament church of God made it a major hub of Christianity. The apostle Paul makes at least 4 references to the city in his epistle to the Colossians. Interestingly, he references the city even though he had never visited it (quotes taken from The Holy Bible – A Faithful Version unless noted).

            1. Now I want you to understand what great concern I have for you, and for those in Laodicea, and as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; . . . (Col. 2:1)

            13. For I bear witness to him (Epaphras, a preacher who was pivotal in the conversion of many people in Colossae) that he has much zeal for you, and for those in Laodicea, and for those in Hierapolis (4:13).

            15 Give our best wishes to the believers in Laodicea and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house. 16 After you read this letter, make sure that it is read also in the church at Laodicea. At the same time, you are to read the letter that the believers in Laodicea will send you. (4:15, TEV)

            The ancient city of Philadelphia, which sits near the Cogamus River, is 44 kilometers (27 miles) from Sardis and 77 kilometers (48 miles) from Laodicea. It is located in the Kuzucay valley, near the bottom of Mount Bozdad, in modern Turkey’s province of Manisa. Behind the city are volcanic cliffs which the locals call ‘inkwells.’

            On one side of the city the land was fertile enough to grow grapes. The quality of wine produced by Philadelphia’s fields was such that the Roman poet Virgil wrote about its excellence.

            Philadelphia was founded in 189 B.C. by Pergamon King Eumenes and given its name in honor of the love he had for brother Attalus. The city was also called Decapolis, because it was considered one of the ten cities of the plain. In the first century A.D. the city was referred to Neo-kaisaria. During the reign of Vespasian, it was called Flavia. In addition to these names it was also sometimes referred to as ‘Little Athens’ because of the pagan temples and other public buildings which adorned it. Its modern name, Ala-shehir, might be a corruption of the Turkish words meaning ‘city of God.’

            Attalus III, the last of Pergamos’ kings, lacked a royal heir to the throne. He bequeathed, upon his death (which occurred in 133 B.C.), that his kingdom (which included the city) be given to the Roman empire. Rome’s Asia province was created in 129 B.C. by bringing together Ionia and Attalus’ former kingdom.

            The city was nearly destroyed and suffered a great deal when a major earthquake hit the area in 17 A.D. Emperor Tiberius, in lieu of the damages, allowed Philadelphia to be free of taxation. Various other emperors aided the area, such as Caligula (ruled 37 to 41 A.D.), Vespasian (69 to 79 A.D.) and Caracalla (188 to 217 A.D.).

            Sardis, located at the foot of Mount Tmolus, is 51 kilometers (32 miles) from Pergamos and 44 kilometers (27 miles) from Philadelphia (Alasehir). The city and surrounding area was watered by the river Pactolus. The river, known for its golden sands, helped make the city prosperous when gold was found near its banks.

            The city was also noted for its fruits, wool, and temple to the pagan goddess Cybele (whose worship was very similar to the worship of the pagan goddess Diana (Artemis) found at Ephesus).

            Sardis was the ancient capital of the Kingdom of Lydia. The kingdom’s most noteworthy king was the very wealthy Croesus (Kroisos), who ruled from about 560 to 547 B.C. He was the first person to strike and issue the first true pure gold (and silver) coins used in the marketplace. His father King Alyattes, who reigned from about 610 to 560 B.C., minted and distributed the world’s first coins. Alyattes’ coins were made of electrum, an alloy of gold and silver.

            The city became important to the Persians after it was conquered by Cyrus the Great in the 6th century B.C. By the first century A.D. the city had passed into the hands of the Romans. Although an earthquake destroyed it in 17 A.D. the city was soon rebuilt.

            Tradition states the city was the first in its area to be converted by the preaching of the apostle John. It also may have been the first city that revolted from Christianity and one of the first that was laid in its ruins. The inhabitants were dimly viewed by their contemporaries for their voluptuous way of life. There may be an allusion to this fact in God’s message to the church found in the book of Revelation.

            Pergamos
            The Seven Churches of Revelation

            Model of the Great Altar

            Pergamos is located 79 kilometers (49 miles) from Smyrna and 61 kilometers (38 miles) from Thyatira. It is a town of Mysia located on the Caicus river. The city, from 281 to 133 B.C., was the residence of Attalia’s kings and the kingdom’s capital.

            Pergamos, after King Attalus died, was given to the Roman Empire in the hope of preventing civil unrest. His son attempted to seize the kingdom for himself but was defeated. The Roman province of Asia was then formed with the city as its capital.

            The city is the birthplace of the well-known Roman physician, surgeon and philosopher named Galen. Plutarch, a Greek historian and writer, started a library in the city. It soon grew to over 200,000 volumes and became the Greek’s second best ancient library. It’s reputation was so highly regarded that Marc Antony, upon his marriage to Cleopatra, gifted it to her as a present. Pergamos was also popular for the creation of a papyrus replacement (named pergaminus or parchment) using calfskin.

            The city’s Great Altar, which was constructed in the early part of the 2nd century, is now located in a Berlin, Germany museum. The altar’s base shows a epic war between a race of giants and the pagan gods of Olympus. A picture of the pagan god Zeus, believed to be the ruler of all things, adorns the altar’s frieze. This gigantic altar was likely referred to in Revelation 2 when God said he knew his church in the city resided “where Satan’s throne is” (Revelation 2:13).

            but you (Pergamos) are holding fast My name, and did not deny My faith, even in the days in which Antipas (the first Christian to be put to death by the Roman state) was My faithful witness, who was killed among you . . . 16. Repent! For if you do not repent, I will come to you quickly, and will make war against them . . . (Revelation 2:13, 16)

            4 But a few of you there in Sardis have kept your clothes clean (symbolic of being spiritually clean). You will walk with me, clothed in white, because you are worthy to do so. (Revelation 3:4)

            10. Because you have kept the word of My patience, I also will keep you from the time of temptation which is about to come upon the whole world to try those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

            Smyrna, originally peopled by Asiatics known as the Lelages, is located 56 kilometers (35 miles) from Ephesus and 79 kilometers (49 miles) from Pergamos (Pergamon). It was one of the principal cities of Roman Asia and competed with Ephesus and Pergamos for the title “First City of Asia.” Although the city was settled in the 11th century B.C., it did not begin to reach its height of importance until after Alexander the Great laid the foundation for a new city. The actual enlargement and fortification of the city was carried out under Antigonus (316 – 301 B.C.) and Lysimachus (301 – 281 B.C.).

            The name Smyrna means “myrrh,” which is a resin obtained from the Commiphora myrrha tree. Myrrh was used chiefly in embalming the dead since it had the property of preserving dead bodies from putrefaction. This type of embalming was used in Egypt and Judea. Myrrh is often remembered as one of the three gifts the Magi gave to Jesus after he was born.

            Smyrna was known for its schools of science and medicine. It boasted of, on the slope of Mount Pagus, a theater that could seat up to 20,000 spectators. The city also celebrated Olympian games that were very popular with the local populace.

            In 197 B.C. Smyrna severed its relationship with King Eumenes of Pergamos then appealed to Rome for help. Smyrna, because it had never established any ties to the Roman Empire, sought to create a bond by creating a cult of Rome. Smyrna’s ‘Rome cult’ soon spread to other locations and may have led to the worship of the pagan goddess Roma.

            On the ground floor of Ephesus’ marketplace (Agora) existed twenty-eight businesses, all of which faced toward the north. The market’s second floor contained rows of columns between which galleries existed. As such, the Agora was the largest marketplace in the ancient world.

            Ephesus, in the Roman province of Asia, is 56 kilometers (35 miles) from Smyrna. Located opposite the island of Samos, it is the closest of Revelation’s seven churches to the island of Patmos where the apostle John wrote the book of Revelation. It was the capital both of Ionia and proconsular Asia and was founded primarily by those from Athens. The city was originally called Arsinoe after the second wife of one of its governors.

            Ephesus’ location made it the chief city of Asia Minor. It maintained an artificial harbor accessible to the largest ships. The city stood at the entrance of a valley that reached far into the province. It was also connected via highways to other important cities in the region. Easily reachable either by land or sea, Ephesus was the most easily accessible city in Asia.

            Ephesus had a plethora of the most eminent orators and speakers in the world and contained many beautiful buildings. It was world famous for its large temple to the pagan goddess Diana (in the New Testament Diana is a translation of the Greek word Artemis).

            The city was also known for building the largest outdoor theater in the world, capable of containing 50,000 spectators. For many years it was the largest city in the Roman Empire next to Rome and boasted a population of more than a quarter million.

            The Ephesian church was founded by the Apostle Paul.

            Paul traveled through the upper parts and came to Ephesus; and when he found certain disciples, 2. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit after you believed?” And they said to him, “We have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

            5. And after hearing this, they were baptized . . . (Acts 19)

            Although Paul visited the city briefly during his second missionary journey, he returned during his third missionary journey and stayed for a little more than three years.

            Tradition states the apostle John lived in the city after being released from Patmos. A marked tomb in Ephesus is believed by some to be that of John.

            Paul the apostle likely began the Christian church in the city. Polycarp (69 to 155 A.D.), believed to be one of apostle John’s students, played a leading role in the Ephesian church in the second century A.D. It is believed Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna.

            So where are they today?

          • jcrosby35

            Yes, with Christ as the Head of the body His Church and the Holy Spirit as His agent. Not the pope. 1Co. 12

          • wandakate

            JCROSBY35: I’m not aware that the Pope can save anyone. JESUS is the way, not the Pope. GOD the FATHER was GOD, JESUS was the son of GOD, and the HOLY SPIRIT was the comforter that would come and lead us into all truth. Therefore, those are our guides and not a Pope or any religion or denomination or organization or any Watchtower Society.

          • Amy Hall

            And, Jesus promised to send us the comforter, “who would lead us to ALL truth”. That is the promise. Since this is the promise, then, there is NO WAY that the Holy Spirit would lead us to believe lies! The Pope is not a true man of God because the words that come out of his mouth are not of the true scriptures. He is also, no friend of Israel !

          • jcrosby35

            Do to the considerable increase in the postings of the popes ecumenical movement by the RCC I feel the need to post a statement of belief. There does need to be a movement of unity in the body of Christ. Be aware and be not deceived. I have read 1Co. 12 in the context of 13 and 14.
            Christ does want the Church organized and in Christian unity. But in the Unity of the body with Him, (Christ) as the head of His body the Church. 1Co.12. (Not) the pope. He also wants it organized by the Holy Spirit whom is His agent to the Church in this world and who gives gifts to empower His Church.
            1 Co.13 Love is the power of the church and by it we work. (But not in ignorance and in worldly principals). Let’s get rid of the confusion and follow Paul’s example of the ‘Church as God intended. 1Co. 14 is our template. Not as some so called pope who seeks to bring the apostate church under the authority of the so called holy father who has no right or claim on Christ’s Church. And has no right to be called Holy father.
            Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and the Holy Spirit is His agent and our comforter in this world, (not the pope).
            The popes are the greatest usurpers ever, the Pope takes the title of Holy Father, there is only one “Holy Father”, “God Himself”, the pope takes the title of Head of the church, there is only one “Head of the church” and that is “Jesus Christ”, the pope takes the title of Vicar, or representative of Christ on the earth, there is only one “representative of Christ on earth” and that is the “Holy Spirit”. The popes and their religion are the Great Whore spoken of in the book of Revelation, and Copeland is a Harlot…you need to read Revelation 17

            Do not be deceived. Jesus Christ is Lord.

          • Kelly Weblerker

            My dad wants me to refer to him as my father. What can I do?

          • jcrosby35

            Nothing. Just do not call him Abba. Abba as Christ used in the Greek is the Holy Father. Now find another way of trying to be cute.

          • Kelly Weblerker

            Christ spoke Aramaic. Btw, what about the 70’s disco group ABBA?

          • Neiman

            Your apparently not being a Christian and all, you wouldn’t know it, but we are called to make righteous judgments and to avoid evil and false teachings.

          • Sherry Omalley

            BUT ARE NOT CALLED TO JUDGE OR BE PHARISEES…TAKE THE LOG OUT OF OWN EYE BEFORE THE SPLINTER IN YOUR BROTHER’S

          • Neiman

            you wouldn’t know it, but we are called to make righteous judgments and to avoid evil and false teachings.

          • pax2u

            is that what your denomination teaches?

          • jcrosby35

            What does the Bible teach?

            Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

            1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

            1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

            1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

            1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
            You want to judge Neiman then first take the log out of your own eye, then you can see to take the splinter out of his if in fact there is a splinter. Get it right or you will be judged according to your judgment.

            1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • jcrosby35

            And what does that have to do with anything? You cannot even confront the scriptures in proper context? You are so zealous you are blind. You are no different than those under the pope who blindly pursued the Christian and persecuted them as heretics for the pope and your religion.

          • jcrosby35

            You want to bring Peter into it. The same Peter whom Christ rebuked? The same Peter who denied the Lord three times saying he did not know him? The same Peter whom Paul rebuked.

            Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

            Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

            Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

            Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

            Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

            Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

            Peter was blessed because of the revelation God gave him of Christ the Messiah. But it is the revelation and not Peter that is the rock of our salvation. It is the revelation that is the keys to eternal life and power. Peter never went to Rome, Paul did. Peter never ran the church in Jerusalem, James the brother of Christ did. There was no pope or RCC until Constantine appointed it in about 430 AD with the purpose of politically unifying the people under Rome. And now it is the pope using religion again to build the NWO for the anti Christ.
            No way will the true Church of Christ be led to worship a muslim god and then the anti Christ. Get your eyes open before you are lost. Only Jesus Christ is Lord.

          • Kristina

            Peter the Rock

            Many things come to mind. First, the name change. Every time there is a name change in the Bible, God is assigning a new role for that person. Peter = Rock. Its the first time in the Bible anyone is called Peter and it is the first time Peter is called, well Peter. Some may object and say in the Greek Peter/”Petrus”= Stone, pebble, and the second rock /”Petra”=Rock. “Petra” is a greek feminine form word and would not be appropriate to apply to a Male, hence the Greek masculine form “Petros” was used. Additionally, Jesus spoke to his apostles in Aramaic where “Kepa”=Rock. Secondly, we have the keys, from Isaiah 22:22 We have the following: “Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder, When he opens no one will shut, When he shuts no one will open.” We know from Isaiah the key was a symbol of authority; in the verses preceding we learn Hezekiah was choosing Eliakim to be his prime minister of the royal household of Israel (Kingdom). This “seat” was successive. Matthew’s Gospel is focused on a Jewish audience by the way it starts; tracing Jesus’ genealogy all the way back to King David and then says, ‘Jesus son of David’. If I am a Jew and I know scripture and I hear Jesus speak these words to Peter, I would be reminded of Isaiah 22:22 and what the ‘Keys” represent. It should also be noted that in the original Greek it is clear that the keys are being only given to Peter as the singular is used, but the binding and loosening is applied to all of the disciples in the plural. Anyone notice that whenever the apostles are listed in the Bible, Peter’s name is ALWAYS first? Then we have scripture that shows that the apostles (Peter obviously included) are to be the “foundation” – Ephesians 2:20 “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.” Jesus made Peter prime minister of His Kingdom, Jesus is still the KING!!! Taking Ephesians 2:20 in mind when reading Matthew 16:18 – “Built ON the foundation of..” / “..and ON this rock I will build..” Jesus also commissions Peter alone the “feeding of the sheep” in John 21:15-17. Its clear Peter was chosen by our Lord to lead and shepard. The bible also shows us how people reacted to Peter, In Acts 5:15 we read, “to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them.” His shadow…

          • jcrosby35

            You are going to have to do a lot better than that. There are three explanations given by theologians as to what Christ said to Peter in that statement. There is also the history of Peter. And most of all how the RCC has used that statement to establish its church. Peter was never a pope and he never was given absolute authority as Christ’s vicar to rule over His church. Read the Bible. The scriptures which you chose to ignore speak of Peter and he was in no way infallible. Besides Christ’s rebuke to him there was Paul’s rebuke. You ignore the scriptures to your own peril.

          • Kristina

            Interesting that you imply I am the one who doesn’t read the Bible. Pope’s themselves are NOT infallible!!! Peter is our prime example. Yet, still Jesus entrusted to him alone to lead the Church and feed the sheep of the flock. Jesus gave the church this promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The Holy Spirit has been guiding the Church from the beginning and when Peter speaks on Faith and morals, the Church listens. Out of the CHURCH came the bible we have today. (Mine has 74 books, yours probably 66)(interestingly the number 7 in the bible represents completeness while the number 6 represents incomplete.) The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the Truth and if you need a bible verse on that, check out 1 Timothy 3:15. It was the CHURCH who guided by the Holy Spirit declared out of hundreds of epistles, books etc Inspired. The Holy Spirit still guides the Church today. For example, did you know that contraception was denounced by all Christian churches up until he Anglican Church declared it acceptable and shortly all other Christian churches followed suit, all except for one that is…. Still guided by the same Holy Spirit that guided the Church to compile the Bible; the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

          • jcrosby35

            To Peter alone? Christ had twelve disciples. And one was a devil. (Judas). After Judas was gone then in Acts another disciple was elected to take his place. All were commanded to remain in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit to minister. All who received the Holy Spirit were 120 empowered to go into the world and preach the gospel. The great commission was given to everyone to go into the world.

            Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

            Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

            Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

            Peter was ready to go fishing and the Lord cornered him

            Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

            Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

            Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. Again Peter blew it and was commanded by the Lord as to his ministry.

            Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

            Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

            Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

            Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (Simple put mind you own business and follow me).

            Now I say to you. GET PETER OUT OF THE WAY AND FOLLOW JESUS.

          • Kristina

            Check the original Greek my friend; Jesus entrusts Peter alone (singular) the keys of the kingdom; but address the loosing and binding to all the disciples. Why do you deny Jesus gave Peter a special role? It is throughout the Word. He changed his name (big flag that something special is going on here.) He entrusts the keys to Peter. Tells Peter He will build His Church upon Him. He commands Peter to “feed” His sheep. – check the Greek on those passages for an even deeper meaning!!! Peter’s name is always mentioned first in the Word. There is no doubt Jesus gives Peter a special role of prime minister of His kingdom just like we see in Kings as I mentioned in another comment.

          • John_33

            Jesus did not make Peter a role like Prime Minister. Was he beloved? Absolutely. Was he special in God’s eyes? Without a doubt, but note Mark 10:42-44:

            “But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: and whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.”

            God’s leaders are to be the meekest men around. They don’t lord their power over the flock; they point them to God, and they lead by example. Peter obeyed God and completed his task wonderfully. Compare that with the actions of the Popes and the Catholic Church throughout history and you will see that they have exercised lordship as the Gentiles do. When people dissented against the teachings of the Catholic Church, Catholic leaders would turn them over to the ruling authorities to have them executed. Many Popes became personally involved in political disputes and at least one even tried to incite a rebellion against a sitting monarch over religion. I can’t picture Peter trying to incite a rebellion against a sitting monarch, even if that ruler was wicked.

            As for the commandment to feed the flock, Peter in 1 Peter 5:1-3 specifically tells us that the commandment is given to all elders and not just him alone. Matthew 16:17-19 are wonderful verses, but they do not refer to the beginning of the Catholic Church or of papal succession.

          • Kristina

            I hear a lot of opinion in your stance. Again, please look to the Greek, consider the Old testament in light of the new, the new is hidden in the Old!!! Of course the elders are called to be servants as Jesus called them to be. Have there been horrible leaders? Absolutely. Sinners as we all are right? But that won’t stop the Holy Spirit from guiding the Church. Even the angels follow a hierarchy; why would the Church be any different? It’s God’s design look at creation, we have hierarchal order. If we didn’t things would be a mess!!! Which is what we have in the current state of the Christian church’s. Denominations (or “non-denominational) galore, each one teaching their own opinions on Faith and morals; some accepting gay “marriage”, some accepting abortion and contraception, others accepting divorce and remarriage, co-habitation. Thanks, but I’ll stick with the original “universal” church that the Holy Spirit has been guiding through the past 2,000 years not just the past 500.

          • John_33

            If I said anything that is not clearly rooted in history or in the Scriptures, please show me where I erred.

            It’s true that creation is ordered since God is not the author of confusion, but that’s precisely why Jesus told His disciples not to exercise lordship over the flock – God ordered His Church to follow His Son’s example to be servants while they are on earth. Peter accepted this commandment and exhorted others to follow it in 1 Peter 5:3. Sadly, the Catholic Church has consistently disobeyed this commandment and has exercised lordship over its subjects in direct violation to Jesus’ and Peter’s words.

            God tells us to determine whether people are from God or not based on their fruit (actions) in Matthew 7:15-17. If we see someone proclaiming himself to be the appointed leader of God’s Church, thus, violating Jesus’ commandment not to exercise lordship, what are we to think of him? He cannot be from God because he is violating God’s commandments by proclaiming himself to be the ruler over God’s Church. A good example of this can be found in the catechism: “the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls.” This is not a minor error – this is in direct violation to Jesus’ command not to exercise lordship.

          • Kristina

            Well then, I think we just have a matter of difference in just what is “exercising lordship” and what exactly it is the Catechism is referring to. Apostolic succession and authority is no joke.

            Matt. 10:1,40 – Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

            Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

            Luke 9:1; 10:19 – Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

            Luke 10:16 – Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

            Luke 22:29 – the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

            Num 16:28 – the Father’s authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

            John 5:30 – similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

            John 7:16-17 – Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

            John 8:28 – Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

            John 12:49 – The father’s authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

            John 13:20 – Jesus says, “he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me.” He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

            John 14:10 – Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

            John 16:14-15 – what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

            John 17:18; 20:21 – as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

            Acts 20:28 – the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 – Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

            Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 – the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

            Eph. 2:20 – the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

            Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 – the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

          • John_33

            It’s true that the apostles shared in Christ’s ministry (just as Christians do today: 2 Timothy 4:11), but none of them ever claimed to possess supreme or unlimited power over God’s Church, nor did any of them ever take the title “Holy Father” (There is only one Holy Father: Ephesians 4:6), nor did any of them ever teach papal supremacy, all of which violates Jesus’ commandment not to exercise lordship. This whole issue boils down to this: “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” ~ 1 John 2:4-5. If we don’t follow Jesus’ commandments, then we cannot claim to be His disciples. It doesn’t matter what we say or do; what matters is that we obey God’s commands. The Catholic Church has not done this.

          • ronaldo morrow

            you mentioned that mary is advocate for us to Christ. why have a middle man to a middle man? why have Christ then if mary is an advocate. the bible says there is one advocate between us and God and its not mary

          • Kristina

            Christ is our Mediator. Our perfect paschal lamb. The perfect sacrifice for our sins. He covers us with His blood before God and makes us worthy. Mary, mother of all believers intercedes and acts as an advocate as all mothers do for their children. Wedding of Cana is the perfect example.

          • The Last Trump

            Could you please provide the Bible verses that declare Mary is the mother of all believers and that she, in fact, intercedes for us. Actually, no need. You will not find it. It is an invention of the Roman Catholic Church. But please, don’t take my word for it. See if you can find any verse to back up your claim.

          • Kristina

            Are you truly interested in what verses I have to provide or are you just making another snarky comment? If your truly interested I will provide just let me know.

          • The Last Trump

            If you have ’em I truly would love to see them.

          • The Last Trump

            Are you still looking?

          • Kristina

            The new testament must always be read in light of the old. The New Testament is prefigured in the Old, and the Old is fulfilled in the new. This is how the early Church read the Bible, this is how they wrote their hymns, this is how they said their prayers.

            Genesis 3:15
            15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

            The term “seed” in this verse is the only time in the entire bible where “seed” is used to refer to the woman’s seed and not the males. Throughout the Old Testament we see shadows of women of Israel literary crushing the head of their enemies. A shadow of what is to come.

            At the foot of the tree of knowledge after the fall, Eve was called “woman” for “mother of all the living.”

            Jeremiah 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? For the Lord hath created a new thing in the earth: a woman shall compass a man.”

            As the first Eve came from The first Adam; the new Adam comes from the new Eve.

            Jesus, Himself never calls Mary anything else but “woman”. In calling her “woman” He is revealing her as the woman of Genesis 3:15. Mary always points us to “Who” Jesus is.

          • The Last Trump

            My kind of girl! Backs up her positions with scripture. Very wise.

            Although we differ still on the veneration of Mary, your explanation for her title as the mother of all believers was profound! I have studied the Bible for twenty years and it has always bothered me that Jesus regularly addressed His mother as “woman”! Just seemed cold and impersonal to me. Why not, “mother” or “Mary”? Terrific explanation! 🙂 Might not be entirely accurate, as many take the “woman” from Genesis 3:5 to be Eve and Eve alone. As Jesus was indeed a descendant of Eve’s through Mary, and not Joseph. Thus explaining why the “seed” was from a female, not a male. But still, a very possible explanation.

            Mary interceding, however, is just un-Biblical. It can’t be found. Jesus, and Jesus alone was qualified as GOD, to be our perfect, sinless saviour. Mary is fully human and did not die in our place. To venerate Mary simply because she had a baby robs Jesus of all of the glory and honour that is due Him. To believe she answers prayers and intercedes, also robs from Christ as these are His roles and not hers. He intercedes. He is our High Priest. He answers prayers. No human from any generation is ever prayed to. It is simply un-Biblical. If I am wrong, please reveal to me the scriptures that I am missing declaring Mary as intercessor. Eve is the “real” mother of all believers as she is the mother of all humanity, and yet even she is never prayed to or venerated.

            I sincerely believe that the veneration of Mary is one of those subtle victories of Satan, whereby he has managed to take the focus off of Jesus, even momentarily, and placed it on a mortal woman instead, where it will be ineffective. And we can all acknowledge that Satan has had many victories over the Roman Catholic Church, with it’s sordid history and thirst for power, anti-Semitism and mass murder, of even devout Christians who merely sought to translate the scriptures so you and I could read it!

            The veneration of Mary, is just one more of these victories. Get the focus off Christ at all costs. Again, if the scriptures will back it up, I’m all for it. But I haven’t seen it anywhere. In fact, I’ve seen just the opposite. Christ, and Christ alone.

          • Kristina

            I appreciate the honest and cordial response. : )

            Please don’t take this conversation about Mary to mean that I don’t claim Jesus as my LORD Jesus Christ, my savior; His blood and perfect sacrifice covers me and makes me worthy before God; He is my Meditator.

            I would like to point out that Satan hates Mary. She is the obedience to Eve’s disobedience. She is the “woman” of Genesis 3:15. “Enmity” is between Satan and Mary. Between his seed and hers. I can’t think of anyone else that would want to take honor away from her but Satan. After all God chose her to come to us through. A lowly creature, a mere human. Oh, how Satan must hate that! Plus, like any good mother, she gives the best advice, John 2:5. 🙂

            Take a look at the beginning of Genesis and then take a look at the beginning of the book of John. “In the beginning”(Genesis 1.1), “In the beginning”(John1.1). The Jews of the day would have recalled the book of Genesis; it’s a deliberate echo. Day 1 – John mentions the Messiah; Day 2-4 “The next day”… (John 1:29,1:34, 1:43), etc. 5??Mary’s identity of the ‘woman’ in Genesis 3:15 always points to “Who” Jesus is! As the first Eve prompts Adam to commit his first sinful act, Mary prompts Jesus to preform His first glorious act.

          • Kristina

            I would also like to point out that scripture clearly points out Mary to be the New Ark of the New covenant. The new is prefigured in the old, the old fulfilled in the new. If Jesus is the new Moses, than Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. The new testament has deliberate echoes:

            2 Samuel 6:2
            And David arose, and went with all the people who were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who dwelleth between the cherubims.

            Luke 1:39
            And Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Judah,

            2 Samuel 6:9
            And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

            Luke 1:43
            And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

            2 Samuel 6:11
            And the ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the Lord blessed Obededom, and all his household.

            Luke 1:56
            And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

            2 Samuel 6:16
            And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

            Luke 1:41
            And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

          • James Grimes

            I checked Matthew 16 thoroughly, both in several English translations and in the original Greek. Our Lord Jesus DID NOT bestow any special privileges or rights upon Peter that He did not bestow upon the other Apostles. I know that Catholics want to believe that this happened, but Scripture does not back it up.

          • Kristina

            Might want to check again . The Bible disproves this. Matthew records that Jesus explicitly gave the keys to Peter, addressing Himself to Peter with the accusative singular pronoun “se” [thee].(13)

            In Scripture, keys are a symbol of the authority held by one designated chief steward, vizier, or head servant over a house -again see Isaiah 22:20-24.

          • James Grimes

            I checked thoroughly. Your position is unbiblical.

          • Kristina

            What is unbiblical? Going back and checking the use of the original language of the text? I’m sorry but opinions and emotions don’t matter here. The Greek singular in that verse is either used or it isn’t.

          • HenryBowers

            Why would the bible need to be the last word on the question?

          • James Grimes

            Only an Atheist would ask a question such as you did. Please go stalk an Atheist site.

          • HenryBowers

            I’ll bet you want me to leave, you question-dodger.

          • Sandra

            YOU checked? Just YOU? Do you actually know Koine Greek? Jesus most definitely bestowed special privileges to Peter ALONE. And it’s not just because we Catholics want that to be true. It’s because IT IS TRUE. You just don’t want to see it.

          • Sandra

            It’s only 73 books. 😉 And our Pope IS indeed INFALLIBLE but only when it come to matters of faith and morals.

          • Kristina

            Thanks, you are correct. I believe where I got 74 is from the Eastern Orthodox, they have 74 books. 😉

          • christy

            OH MY!!! Pope infallible??!! WOAH!!!

          • Sandra

            Peter was definitely the ROCK and because of that, he was also our first Pope and we call him the Vicar of Christ, Holy Father, Bishop of Rome, Papa, Servant of the servants of God, Supreme Pastor, His Holiness, The Rock, Supreme Pontiff, Father of Kings, Successor of St. Peter, Shepherd of the Universal Church, etc. And our Holy Father IS indeed INFALLIBLE. But only when it comes to matters of faith and morals. He is not impeccable. There is a difference. He is still a sinner and he makes mistakes just like you and me. But when it comes to the faith, the Holy Spirit is definitely WITH HIM so he cannot make mistakes on those matters. That’s just the way Peter was. When Peter spoke about the faith, he was spot on. Otherwise, he was a tad bit clumsy and definitely imperfect. But when Peter spoke out and answered Jesus as to whom Jesus was, he was right. Since you think you know the Bible so well, I’m sure I don’t have to point out the Scripture verses for you where Jesus told Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

            And those rebukes mean little. Just because Jesus or someone else rebuked someone did not mean that they were not something of importance.

            And we did not establish our own Church. Jesus Christ established His own Church and that is the Catholic Church. Kristina gave you all that information and you just dismiss and ignore it without giving it at least some thought and perhaps prompt you to do some real research.

            Steep yourself in true HISTORY and really study the Christian faith all the way back to Bible times. Trust me, no, Trust Jesus Christ and His apostles, the Catholic Church can be traced back all the way to Jesus Christ and His Apostles. You just have to dig deep.

          • jcrosby35

            Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

            Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

          • jcrosby35

            Christ the solid Rock
            Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of
            mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
            Jesus Christ is the Word and the rock we build on. He never advised anyone to build on Peter.
            Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
            Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
            Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
            Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
            Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
            Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
            whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever
            thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
            Note the verses in context.
            First Christ’s question. First by God’s revelation Peter
            got it right. Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. Second notice
            Peter the small rock is blessed because of this revelation because it is this revelation that the church is built on. Christ is the rock and it is His Word that we build on. Peter has no power but Christ does.
            Christ alone has the keys to life and death, heaven and
            hell.
            Rev 1:18 I am
            he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
            Peter does not hold the power of binding and losing the
            whole church does.
            Mat 18:12 Let me ask you this. What would you do if you
            had a hundred sheep and one of them wandered off? Wouldn’t you leave the
            ninety-nine on the hillside and go look for the one that had wandered away?
            Mat 18:13 I am sure that finding it would make you
            happier than having the ninety-nine that never wandered off.
            Mat 18:14 That’s how it is with your Father in heaven.
            He doesn’t want any of these little ones to be lost.
            Mat 18:15 If one of my followers sins against you, go
            and point out what was wrong. But do it in private, just between the two of
            you. If that person listens, you have won back a follower.
            Mat 18:16 But if that one refuses to listen, take along
            one or two others. The Scriptures teach that every complaint must be proven
            true by two or more witnesses.
            Mat 18:17 If the follower refuses to listen to them,
            report the matter to the church. Anyone who refuses to listen to the church
            must be treated like an unbeliever or a tax collector.
            Mat 18:18 I promise you that God in heaven will allow
            whatever you allow on earth, but he will not allow anything you don’t allow.
            Mat 18:19 I promise that when any two of you on earth
            agree about something you are praying for, my Father in heaven will do it for you.
            Mat 18:20 Whenever two or three of you come together in
            my name, I am there with you.
            There is no place in
            scripture where Jesus orders Peters ministry to be passed on to anyone and
            there are no popes in scripture. But Christ does command us not to call anyone
            father.
            Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the
            earth: for one
            is your Father,
            which is in heaven.

          • jcrosby35

            Christ the solid Rock
            Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of
            mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
            Jesus Christ is the Word and the rock we build on. He never advised anyone to build on Peter.
            Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
            Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
            Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
            Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
            Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
            Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
            whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever
            thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
            Note the verses in context.
            First Christ’s question. First by God’s revelation Peter
            got it right. Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. Second notice
            Peter the small rock is blessed because of this revelation because it is this revelation that the church is built on. Christ is the rock and it is His Word that we build on. Peter has no power but Christ does.
            Christ alone has the keys to life and death, heaven and
            hell.
            Rev 1:18 I am
            he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
            Peter does not hold the power of binding and losing the
            whole church does.
            Mat 18:12 Let me ask you this. What would you do if you
            had a hundred sheep and one of them wandered off? Wouldn’t you leave the
            ninety-nine on the hillside and go look for the one that had wandered away?
            Mat 18:13 I am sure that finding it would make you
            happier than having the ninety-nine that never wandered off.
            Mat 18:14 That’s how it is with your Father in heaven.
            He doesn’t want any of these little ones to be lost.
            Mat 18:15 If one of my followers sins against you, go
            and point out what was wrong. But do it in private, just between the two of
            you. If that person listens, you have won back a follower.
            Mat 18:16 But if that one refuses to listen, take along
            one or two others. The Scriptures teach that every complaint must be proven
            true by two or more witnesses.
            Mat 18:17 If the follower refuses to listen to them,
            report the matter to the church. Anyone who refuses to listen to the church
            must be treated like an unbeliever or a tax collector.
            Mat 18:18 I promise you that God in heaven will allow
            whatever you allow on earth, but he will not allow anything you don’t allow.
            Mat 18:19 I promise that when any two of you on earth
            agree about something you are praying for, my Father in heaven will do it for you.
            Mat 18:20 Whenever two or three of you come together in
            my name, I am there with you.
            There is no place in
            scripture where Jesus orders Peters ministry to be passed on to anyone and
            there are no popes in scripture. But Christ does command us not to call anyone
            father.
            Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the
            earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

          • jcrosby35

            Lets get one thing right. Peter never led the church in Jerusalem or in Rome. Paul went to the gentiles and to Rome. James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. Peter was called to minister as a member of the church under the authority of Christ and empower by the Holy Spirit the same way the whole church was ordered to.

            Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:

            Act 15:14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

            Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

            Act 15:16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:

            Act 15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,

            Act 15:18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.

            Act 15:19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;

            Act 15:20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.

            Act 15:21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.

            Act 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

            Act 15:23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:

            Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;

            Act 15:25 it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

            Act 15:26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

            Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also shall tell you the same things by word of mouth.

            Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

            Act 15:29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.

            alam.

          • jcrosby35

            Mary is dead and gone.

            Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

            Mary job was to bare God’s Son and our Savior. The Holy Spirit is our advocate and it is in Christ’s name and authority we pray to the Father. All authority in heaven and earth is given to Christ. There is only one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus.

            No where in the Word of God does God authorize that we pray through anyone else. Or pray in their name.

            Mary is done and is in the presence of God. We do pray or use Paul, Peter or Mary name. And we are commanded not to make any images or bow down to them.

            Lev. 6:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor
            graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

            We do not pray to the dead, or call for them.
            Saul had Samuel come up from the dead using the witch of Endor and lost his life as a result and Israel was lost along with his sons.

            The living do not call upon the dead. It is
            the sin of witch craft and forbidden.

            Deut.18:10 There shall not be found among you
            any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Only Jesus is Lord.

          • Heidi K.

            Amen! Mary was a godly but ordinary human being. She didn’t even remain a virgin.

          • pax2u

            Heidi can you explain this new age thing again?

            “There’s no such thing as ufo’s or aliens since no living being will ever make it through the Van Allen Radiation Belt. Aliens, ghosts, ufo’s et cetera are demons trying to fascinate humans in order to lead them away from the living GOD. Please watch L.A. Marzulli’s videos about the alien deception!”

            wow, just crazy new age crazy non sense, so funny heidi that you attack Christians

          • Heidi K.

            I think you misunderstood, we are talking about the pope here.
            I’m not attacking Christians – why would I attack my own faith!

          • pax2u

            you are talking about the Pope,

          • The Last Trump

            Gee, ANOTHER Christian attacking your Pope. What in the world could be going on….I guess everybody’s just crazy, eh Paximus?

          • pax2u

            sad that those who are filled with hate attack

            now tells us all about your NWO bible conspiracy theories,

          • The Last Trump

            Truer words have never been spoken. And brother, you must be over flowing with a hateful heart. Cause attack is all you do. 🙁

          • pax2u

            and Christian blessings to you

          • pax2u

            I pray that the true God, Jesus Christ will soften your heart

          • The Last Trump

            I pray that He can somehow FIND yours! 🙂

          • pax2u

            and on you also,

            blessings to your and yours

          • The Last Trump

            That’s better, Pax! See now, that wasn’t so hard was it! Welcome, brother! To Christianity. I forgive you for your former hate! Friends again?

          • pax2u

            I forgive you and will pray for you and ask you to pray for me also
            blessings to you and yours

          • pax2u

            did you go to your seventh day adventist “church” today since it is saturday?

          • pax2u

            many who call themselves “christians” will attack the Pope

          • The Last Trump

            Oh, that’s because they’re Christians, silly. Pax!

          • pax2u

            and Christians forgive those who lie about them and attack them

            blessings to you and yours

          • pax2u

            I forgive those who hate me
            blessings to you and yours

          • The Last Trump

            Nice! I’ll be watching for your posts. I truly hope that this will be indeed, the new Pax2u. “Blessings to you and yours” sounds so much better than “I’m glad that you are alone” and “sad that you are SDA” doesn’t it?
            Blessings to you and yours, as well. What a great way to end a conversation, Pax2u! 🙂 Look forward to actual and meaningful discussions in the future.
            I concede defeat. There is simply no fight left in me when confronted by the love and forgiveness of Christianity! Good job, Pax2u. That’s how you win people over for the cause of Christ. Catholics should be proud. 🙂

          • pax2u

            feel free to lie about me, and hate what I believe, that is for you

            I wish you well

            blessings to you and yours

          • The Last Trump

            I would never lie about you or hate what you believe. Would you lie about me being SDA? Exactly. So let’s stop being morons and discuss the real issues. Folks like Neiman and myself are just pointing out areas of concern regarding the Catholic denomination. Like praying to Mary. Not cool. But you have stated that you do not pray to Mary so I believe you.
            And every other denomination suffers the same problem. The traditions of men. So all we have been trying to say is, if your church has you doing something that the Bible warns you against doing, DON’T DO IT! And THIS is the cause for all of this hate and disagreement!? We Christians can be a crazy bunch. Fighting incessantly about the minutest details instead of standing together as the unshakeable body of Christ. We should be able to discuss differences of opinion civilly and share ideas. But this is easier said than done, as each of us feels passionately about our beliefs. So we need to cut each other a little slack and allow for the occasional heated exchange, yes?
            As I have said before, I sincerely hope that you are a brother in Christ and that we might stand together in defense of the gospel in these Godless times we live. God bless, Pax2u! I’ll see you in the comments, brother! 🙂

          • pax2u

            I realize that there will always be those who will hate my Christian faith, and will lie about my beliefs, and that is their decision, and to lie about the faith of a Christian is a sin against God

            I would not attack another, especially when they have no denomination

            there will be those who will lie that Catholics worship Mary, and I forgive them and I will pray for them, and hope that they some day find a Christian Church

            not cool to lie about the beliefs of a Christian

            and I would say if anyone will lie about the beliefs of a Christian
            DO NOT DO IT

            I can not discuss theology with some one who has not have a denominational theology,

          • pax2u

            I apologize for anything that I have said in anger, I apologize to you and to God, sometimes I allow my Irish temper to get the best of me, we have much more in common, then we have in disagreement,

            honestly, I wish you well, and peace on earth to you and all who you love,

            take care, and be well

          • The Last Trump

            Thank you for being the better man and putting an end to this silly feud. I was ready and willing to go on for another 12 rounds! Like a fool 🙁
            It is truly amazing what the words “I forgive you. I wish you well. Blessings to you and yours” can do. A great Christian lesson for the both of us. It’s just too damn hard not to like and appreciate someone who forgives you and wishes you well.
            I sincerely hope that you are able to patch things up with some of the other commenters as well. There seems to be a pretty good bunch of guys and gals here and I think we could all learn a thing or two from each other and benefit from some online “fellowship”. We might not all agree on some of the little things, but we are all passionate about serving Christ and mad as hell about the insanity and the Godlessness going on all around us today. We should all try a little bit more to hear each other out and be open to differing points of view. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
            Thank you again for your kind words. I, too, apologize for my own conduct and wish you all the best. And truly look forward to conversing again on many a topic more! God bless! 🙂

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            And you know this how? I am willing to bet you are parroting what you have heard preachers tell you about Mary’s virginity. She did not remain one because “that is what those Catholics believe.”

          • Heather

            All this goes to show how the Catholic Church has blinded them into these heresy’s. Thank you for your efforts though.

          • wandakate

            JCROSBY35: The Pope can’t save anyone. He does not possess immortality, he is not infallible, and he doesn’t have the right to be called “Holy Father”. There is only ONE Holy FATHER and He alone is in Heaven. The dead are dead and know NOTHING. Mary is in her grave (sleeping). She’s not hearing their prayers, she is doing anything as scripture plainly says, she is sleeping until JESUS appears to raise the dead in CHRIST. JESUS warned us that people would be deceived and they sure are. They’re listing to hearsay and what their itching ears want to hear. They are like sheep just running behind one another off the cliff. The blind lead the blind. They will die lost in their sins.

          • jcrosby35

            I agree.

          • wandakate

            JCROSBY35: ONLY JESUS was infallible…Is the Pope a human being? Is he not a man? ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. Only JESUS was without sin and perfect, not the Pope or the Virgin Mary. Only JESUS was immortal. Our bodies can die. We are subject to death meaning we are mortal in the flesh. It was “only” JESUS that couldn’t die forever.

          • jcrosby35

            Be Jesus did die my friend. For you and me as a sacrifice for sin. Three days and the grave and He arose.
            All glory, honor, praise and power to Our Lord and Savior.
            Jesus Is the Alpha-Omega and because He lives we also shall live for all eternity in God’s presence.

          • pax2u

            sad that you do not believe in the Bible

          • jcrosby35

            What kind of foolish statement is that? You judge me? You judge yourself for by the measure you have blindly judged you bring judgment on yourself. The RCC log in your eye and you accuse me after all I have shared with you out of the Word of God. And not only me but every other Christian who takes time to share the truth of God’s Word with you. What are you going to say in your defense before God when your are required to give account of your words?

            Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

            Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

          • pax2u

            so is proper context what you believe it to be, do you doubt the word of God, and need to interpretate it to match your agenda?

          • jcrosby35

            Stupid statement. Do you try to project yourself on me? I give nothing but the scriptures to support themselves.

          • pax2u

            your argument is with the Bible not me

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • jcrosby35

            Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
            The church belongs to Christ, He alone is its head. The Holy Spirit is Christ’s agent in the Church, not the pope.
            The keys of heaven are given to the whole church, not just Peter.

            Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

            Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

            Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

            Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

            Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

            Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

          • pax2u

            and Jesus gave the Keys of authority to St Peter

          • jcrosby35

            Take a break pax. We have heard it all before from you. Fact of the matter is the keys were given to the church. Matt. 18 and further more it is Christ’s church and the Holy Spirit is His agent. 1Co. 12

          • pax2u

            is the Bible in error, show in the Bible, where Jesus did not give the Keys of authority to St Peter

          • jcrosby35

            The Bible has never been in error’ It is you who error.

            Christ the solid Rock
            Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of
            mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
            Jesus Christ is the Word and the rock we build on. He never advised anyone to build on Peter.
            Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
            Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
            Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
            Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
            Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
            Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
            whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever
            thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
            Note the verses in context.
            First Christ’s question. First by God’s revelation Peter
            got it right. Jesus is the Christ, the son of God. Second notice
            Peter the small rock is blessed because of this revelation because it is this revelation that the church is built on. Christ is the rock and it is His Word that we build on. Peter has no power but Christ does.
            Christ alone has the keys to life and death, heaven and
            hell.
            Rev 1:18 I am
            he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
            Peter does not hold the power of binding and losing the
            whole church does.
            Mat 18:12 Let me ask you this. What would you do if you
            had a hundred sheep and one of them wandered off? Wouldn’t you leave the
            ninety-nine on the hillside and go look for the one that had wandered away?
            Mat 18:13 I am sure that finding it would make you
            happier than having the ninety-nine that never wandered off.
            Mat 18:14 That’s how it is with your Father in heaven.
            He doesn’t want any of these little ones to be lost.
            Mat 18:15 If one of my followers sins against you, go
            and point out what was wrong. But do it in private, just between the two of
            you. If that person listens, you have won back a follower.
            Mat 18:16 But if that one refuses to listen, take along
            one or two others. The Scriptures teach that every complaint must be proven
            true by two or more witnesses.
            Mat 18:17 If the follower refuses to listen to them,
            report the matter to the church. Anyone who refuses to listen to the church
            must be treated like an unbeliever or a tax collector.
            Mat 18:18 I promise you that God in heaven will allow
            whatever you allow on earth, but he will not allow anything you don’t allow.
            Mat 18:19 I promise that when any two of you on earth
            agree about something you are praying for, my Father in heaven will do it for you.
            Mat 18:20 Whenever two or three of you come together in
            my name, I am there with you.
            There is no place in
            scripture where Jesus orders Peters ministry to be passed on to anyone and
            there are no popes in scripture. But Christ does command us not to call anyone
            father.
            Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the
            earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

          • The Last Trump

            Please show us where Peter gave the keys to your Popes.

          • detonat3

            By labelling him a saint in a Catholic form does not actually mean he had anything to do with the ROMAN Catholic Church.

          • pax2u

            what are you saying, you make no sense, so if the Catholic church acknowledges that he is a Saint then he has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, really,

          • detonat3

            Are you going to keep spamming these verses that are taken out of context to justify the existence of the idolatrous Catholic church?

          • pax2u

            so any Bible verse that you disagree with is taken out of context,

            I suppose since you are not a Christian, the Bible has no context for you

          • The Last Trump

            Paxy, did Ellen G White tell you he was not a Christian? Play nice, little buddy!

          • pax2u

            is ellen g white a “prophet” of God?

          • detonat3

            “so any Bible verse that you disagree with is taken out of context,

            I suppose since you are not a Christian, the Bible has no context for you”
            There is no Bible verse that I disagree with, I only disagree with incorrect interpretation of it.

          • pax2u

            sorry I am a Christian, and I belong to the Catholic church

            your turn are you a Christian and what is your denomination

          • detonat3

            Please quote the Bible verse that demands that you belong to a denomination. You are yet to do so.
            I attend church regularly but you are utterly fixated on this denomination thing and yet there is no basis in Scripture for such a fixation.

          • jcrosby35

            Understand this pax. Being in the catholic church or belonging to a denomination does not save you.
            Only Jesus Christ can save you. READ John 14:6 and understand it pax. Once you receive Jesus Christ then you are saved.

          • pax2u

            that is true, and lying about the faiths of others is a sin against God

          • The Last Trump

            Yes. He really is. It’s sort of his thing.

          • pax2u

            sad that some believe that the Bible is Spam, and when posted it must be out of context

          • detonat3

            “sad that some believe that the Bible is Spam, and when posted it must be out of context” If you had an understanding of posting things IN context you wouldn’t be doing what you do.

          • pax2u

            have you decided if you are a Christian, and can you name your denomination, or are you just alone?

          • jcrosby35

            Ok pax. I will make it as easy for you as possible.
            Peter was blessed not because he was a rock, he was bless because of the revelation of Christ who is the rock.
            Upon this rock” Christ is the rock of the Christian foundation, everything else is unstable.
            There is no other name in heaven or on earth which a person can call on to be saved. The keys of heaven were given to the church to operate by. Matt. 18.
            Christ not Peter is the head of His Church and the Holy Spirit is His agent 1Co. 12.
            Got that? Jesus Christ is Lord. Period.

          • pax2u

            I will make it easy for you

            Jesus Gave the Keys of Authority to St Peter

          • jcrosby35

            Is that all you got pax? Well I will make it easy for you. Bye

          • pax2u

            sorry, all I have is the Christian Bible, sorry

          • jcrosby35

            Nothing to be sorry about. You got a Bible then ready it. Start with the book of John, Take your time and ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding. The Lord is good.

          • pax2u

            every day, I read the entire Bible, including the books that Luther removed

          • jcrosby35

            For now read the book of John. Find out about Jesus.

          • pax2u

            for now read the Bible, Jesus Christ is my teacher, not you

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

            Jesus Spoke directly to st Peter, Jesus gave the keys of authority to St Peter

            I can not find the statement of Jesus that he gave the Keys of Authority to all of the Apostles,

            why do people subtract from the Bible?, and not believe in the entire Bible and when they can not answer it is always, “well you take the Bible out of Context” really?, just because the Bible does not agree with their theology?

          • pax2u

            read the entire Bible including the books that Luther deleted

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • James Grimes

            Don’t waste your time with the guy. He knows how to hate and insult those who hold to the faith.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh brother! *eye roll* Here he goes again! 😉

          • James Grimes

            The cry baby does not know when to stop.

          • pax2u

            do you believe this

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Heidi K.

            Well said.

          • wandakate

            JCROSBY35: Are you aware that Pope John Paul claimed that the Catholic Church had sins piled up to the heavens? Before he passed away he asked GOD to forgive him and the church for her sins. SO, you see he knew. Yet most Catholics do not know about their sins.

          • jcrosby35

            No Wandakate I did not know. Thank you for your information.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes, Paxy. Don’t pray to Mary. Pray to God, in Jesus name. He died for you, brother. Mary did not. And never pray to Allah, buddy! Or Ellen G White!?….

          • pax2u

            and to say that I pray and worship Mary as God is a lie

          • Kim

            Problem is you don’t know the difference between righteous or evil. You spread lies about others then call those who call your bluff evil. SMH. Very sad. THen you encourage others to follow those same lies. How can you wave the Christian flag and lie openly about a brother or sister?? Above you stated that of course Warren wouldn’t speak openly about this strange one World religion. So now you see into people’s hearts? You have no proof, no emails. no sermons, nothing that proves Warren believes in this so called non existent One world religion, yet you have no problems spreading lies about him.

          • Neiman

            What lie?

          • Kim

            Oh brother!! The lies you spread about Warren. You have no proof whatsoever, no emails, no transcripts, nothing but hearsay and twisted junk and you have to ask, what lie?? You know what you are doing, and you don’t care. How can you wave a christian flag and lie about a brother in Christ?? And you have to ask what lie? Please. SMH. It’s people like you who keep the lost at bay.

          • christy

            Please read your Bible ALOT more &ask the Holy Spirit to guide & teach you the truth…Please. This is a SALVATION issue. Jesus alone nothing more nothing less nothing else.Nothing but the precious blood of Jesus my beloved King.Study the Word. Blessings as you do.

          • Heidi K.

            Amen.

          • Heather

            Your eyes are closed and you are being deceived. So just wait for about another year, that is if the Church is still here by then, then you will see for yourself that Neiman is telling the truth. Jesus warned us many times in the scriptures not to be deceived, that many false phrophets would appear in the latter days. You need to ask Him to help you see and He will. I know how itfeels to be going to a Church and to have trust in a Pastor, only to find out things aren’t right. I have experienced this with the last two Churches. It hurts and it’s very dissapointing. The Lord began to show me the deceptions that are going on in these last days. He started to open my eyes at the beginning of this year and I was floored. There is a great falling away from the faith happening right now and much of it is within our Churches. It is very sad. Many are embracing the doctrines of the Emergent Church and New Age. The gospel is being watered down to suit people who do not want to hear conviction of sin, other wise the money stops flowing . Don’t believe us, just ask the Lord to show you and I guarantee He will.

          • wandakate

            HEATHER: Join me in along with Brenda and Neiman there. I think we’re all in the same boat on this one.
            Apostasy was something that was suppose to happen and it is. So many lost souls. Many deceived people. They put their trust and faith in their pastors who only tell them what their itching ears want to hear. They are in apostate churches and don’t even know it, sad. Many don’t know half of what’s going on in the world. They can’t see the forest for the trees. The great falling away must happen and the antichrist must come BEFORE JESUS appears. People need to “study” the scriptures and not just merely listen to some man telling them what their itching ears want to hear. We are not to be deceived, but we are instructed to know what’s going on and be alert and aware b/c the devil (satan) is out there and so are all his evil demons and on every corner they lie, cheat, steal and deceive masses of souls.

          • Mark Evans

            It’s true. My wife worked for him, but then left the church after he started changing. He got paid off by Obama. This guy has lost his way.

          • wandakate

            KIM: Gruber just stated on television a few weeks ago that most Americans are stupid. We don’t know what’s going on. We don’t watch the news, we don’t read the Bible, we don’t “study” to show ourselves approved. I suggest you start doing some research about a very “REAL” One World Religion. I wrote 5 books and I knew about this back in 2012. You need to educate yourself b/c it’s apparent from reading your comments that you don’t know all that is going on in the Catholic Church or anything about the Jesuit Pope. When you know the “truth” the truth will set you free. Stop making a fool out of yourself with statements that like the One World Religion is non existent. Nobody spoke any lies about him. You’re just simply uninformed.

          • Brenda

            Absolutely Neiman we need to be ever vigilant.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Neiman, you earned your lunch this week: you got called a Pharisee – good show! I got a lunch or two myself elsewhere. 🙂 Keep posting – the wolves are persecuting you for His Name!

          • wandakate

            WORLDGONECRAZY: When you tell the truth nobody wants it. When you stand up for what is right, it’s put down. Christians will be persecuted in this life. It’s happening now and will continue to happen even worse until JESUS appearing.
            He said, “Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad for GREAT is your reward in Heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you”…NEVER GIVE UP. Satan loses in the end.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Amen, wandakate! Keep standing firm!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            By the way, Brother Neiman: we disagree a bit on this one, but I do know where you are coming from. I am leery of ecumenical efforts, but I just know that when the Catholic Church (and faithful Protestants) are being persecuted for being pro-life and pro-traditional marriage, that there are some good things to be said for lifting up authentic believers in other denominations, including faithful Jesus-trusting Catholics, of whom I know quite a few.

          • jennylynn

            This is the non believers favorite verse and it is so often taken out of context to silence people for standing up for the truth, this is talking abou hipocracy not exposing evil unbiblical doctrine.

            Elephesins 5:11
            11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

          • jcrosby35

            Now that you have judged Neiman as a Pharisee having a log in his eye how do you justify that? As his judge and jury state your case.

            Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

            Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

            Be very careful you do not condemn yourself. You will be held accountable before God.

          • detonat3

            Wrong. The Bible commands Christians to judge those who claim to be in the faith. “Judge not” refers to those who aren’t in the church.

            1 Corinthians 5:12 “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?”

          • pax2u

            if you are a Christian, what is your Christian denomination, or are you alone with the rest of the lunatic fringe?

          • James Grimes

            Here we go again. You have repeated yourself numerous times. Is this all you know? Who cares which denomination they belong to as long as they profess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

          • pax2u

            as long as they do not lie about the beliefs of Christians I agree, when they start to lie about my beliefs, then they need to be confronted

          • James Grimes

            Who cares? Stop the nonsense.

          • pax2u

            I stand against those who lie about Christians

          • James Grimes

            Yeah, right. In looking at your very numerous comments, I see you post nonsense; pure nonsense. What you are is evident. You post as a child does. You get on something and won’t let it go. If you are going to continue to be on this site, you need to grow up. People are tired of your nonsense. You’re taking up space and wasting people’s valuable time.

          • pax2u

            sorry if standing against those who lie about Christians is offensive to you

            yes the bigots are tired of the truth, should the truth be silenced?

            if you are not interested in the truth against bigotry move on

          • The Last Trump

            “What is your denomination” “Denomination please” “Tell us all your denomination” “Why will you not tell me your denomination!” “I simply must have it!” “Aaaaaaahhhhhhhh!!” Pax, Pax, Pax.

          • pax2u

            it is best that the anti Catholics never have a denomination

          • detonat3

            Do you understand what Protestantism means?

          • pax2u

            that they need to be against some one then being for Jesus Christ

          • pax2u

            those who can not get there own way?

          • Dana Snyder

            I’m Catholic I’m not part of any Denomination. We are the church. You all separated from us.

          • pax2u

            very true,

            I find the part in the article when it said that the Catholic Church “added” books to the Bible, when it was Luther that actually eliminated books that did not match his agenda

          • pax2u

            do you belong to a Christian denomination
            Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

          • jennylynn

            You argue the same thing on every site. Is that your good fruit?

          • pax2u

            when angry bigots lie about the beliefs of Christians, and then hide that they have no denomination, is that good fruit?

          • jcrosby35

            Ok Pax2u Now that you have made yourself a judge, state your case and prove it.
            By the same measure you have judged you will be judged.
            By you own words you will either be justified or condemned before God.

          • pax2u

            I am a Catholic

            now what is your denomination?

          • pax2u

            I am sure that you will defend those who hate and lie about Christians

          • jcrosby35

            I do not have to defend anyone pax. The scripture is the Christians truth and defense. So where is your defense?

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • jcrosby35

            You know pax, you have the mentality of a parrot. Find something new to squawk about.

          • pax2u

            sorry that you believe that the word of God, is the mentality of a parrot, and it is just squawking

          • jcrosby35

            Do you believe in the Bible? Or do you believe in only what the RCC feeds you? You say you believe the Bible? Then read and answer the scriptures I have posted.

          • The Last Trump

            I think you owe parrots an apology. 😉

          • jcrosby35

            Is that the best you can do pax? Meaningless slander. You heap up judgment to yourself.

          • pax2u

            when an anti Catholic says that Catholics worship Mary as God, that is an angry and bigoted lie

          • pax2u

            jennylynn are paranoid anti Catholic

          • James Grimes

            You constantly repeat yourself and have nothing to add to the conversation. You will never learn anything by saying nonsense.

          • pax2u

            why do those who lie about the beliefs of the Catholic faith never have a denomination?

          • James Grimes

            Lie? Never? Both terms are open for discussion. Get past the man and look at the issues. Don’t be obsessed.

          • pax2u

            do you support those who lie about the faith of Christians
            get past the hate and bigotry

          • James Grimes

            You have just lost any respect I may have had for you with this meaningless and mean-spirited comment. Please do not reply.

          • pax2u

            and I have no respect for angry, hateful, bigoted ant Christians

            have a nice day
            and may the Christian God Jesus Christ forgive you

          • The Last Trump

            Paxy! Why are you constantly trying to make enemies? Not cool, dude. Not cool. We will pray so that you don’t have to always be alone, ok? 🙁

          • pax2u

            so I should just accept, lies, hate and bigotry of those who lie about the Catholic Church? I do not think so

          • Dana Snyder

            There is a lot of bigotry against the Catholic Church in this article and in the replies.

          • The Last Trump

            Specifics, Paxman. Who lied? What did they lie about? Can you prove it was a lie?

          • pax2u

            who said that Catholics worship Mary? let’s start with that

            Can anyone show the actual Catholic doctrine that directly states that Mary is Worshiped as God

            and a Jack Chick hate comic book is not actual Catholic doctrine

          • detonat3

            All throughout the history of the Catholic Church have popes said that Mary is sinless and worthy of worship. You need to do some research and start finding this stuff out for yourself. And I didn’t get this from “Jack Chick comics”.

          • pax2u

            post a direct citation that Mary is worshiped as God, or your statement is a lie and a sin against God

          • detonat3

            http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
            From the Vatican itself, how many times can you read about Mary on this one page itself. Blasphemous nonsense that has nothing to do with the Bible.

          • pax2u

            give the exact quote to support your statement that Catholics believe that Mary is God

          • jcrosby35

            Do you belong to a Christian denomination pax2u?

          • pax2u

            yes I am a Catholic and not ashamed
            your turn what is your denomination?

          • pax2u

            yes do you?

          • jcrosby35

            I belong only to Christ. Period!

            1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

            1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

            1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

            1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

            1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

            1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

            1Co 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

            1Co 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

            1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

            1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

            1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

            1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

            1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

            1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

            1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

            1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

            1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

            1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

            1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

            1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

            1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

            1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

            1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

          • pax2u

            what is the name of your Christian denomination?

          • jcrosby35

            And what does denomination have to do with being a Christian? It is Christ through His Holy Spirit that saves. It is often denominations that corrupt. Your dogma shows you to be a member of the RCC. But your theology shows you to be ignorant and closed minded. Take the RCC blinders off and go to Christ. Ask Him for His Holy Spirit to teach you. Then go to the Word of God and read it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and a open mind and heart to learn. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to be our teacher and comforter. Not some denomination. Read John 14-16 and then accept Christ as your LORD AND SAVIOR for He alone the Word, the Truth and the Life, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH HIM.

          • jcrosby35

            Can you not read pax. I just answered your question and backed it with scripture. Do you have no understanding or has satan blinded you?

          • pax2u

            so you are alone, I understand

          • The Last Trump

            Paaaaaaaax! Don’t do it, buddy! 🙁

          • pax2u

            it is no wonder how few of the anti Catholics have no denomination

          • detonat3

            What does a Christian denomination have to do with anything pax2u? Please show me the verse in the Bible that says,”Thou must belong to a particular denomination.”

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • jcrosby35

            Come on pax. That is no answer to the mans request. Evasion makes you no more than a hypocrite.

          • pax2u

            so you do not believe the word of God

          • jcrosby35

            I believe you need to answer to answer the man and stop evading the truth.

          • pax2u

            I answer to the Christian God Jesus Christ

          • jcrosby35

            Finally you said something correct. Believe me you will answer to God.

          • pax2u

            I post scripture of the Church that Jesus establishes on the faith of St Peter and Jesus gave the Keys of authority to St Peter
            and you say that I am evading the Truth

            only for those who do not believe that the Bible is Truth

          • jcrosby35

            No you are not revealing truth. You are blindly over and over regurgitating RCC dogma with little to no Biblical basis. Pick up a Bible for once and open mindedly study it in context.

          • pax2u

            for you a Christian denomination means absolutely nothing

          • detonat3

            You made no attempt to answer the question, you instead decided to just attack me. Is that what Catholicism teaches you?

            I know Christianity doesn’t.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes, he certainly isn’t representing Catholics very well, is he! 🙁

          • James Grimes

            Catholics would be/should be ashamed of his antics. He certainly does not represent the Catholic Church. It has more respect than he has shown. He is an embarrassment.

          • pax2u

            to show that no denomination would accept the hatred and bigotry of those who lie about the Catholic Church

          • jcrosby35

            Answer the mans question pax. And cut out the smutty evasiveness. What has denomination got to do with salvation or being a Christian. I want your answers with scriptures to back it up. Get with it or be called a hypocrite.

          • pax2u

            it is best those who lie about the faith of others, who are filled with anger and bigotry of Christians, to have no denomination

          • jcrosby35

            It is best that you give account for your own words.

          • pax2u

            I believe in the Christian God Jesus Christ, and confront and expose those who lie about the Catholic Church

          • skepticist2012

            pax2u is acting the tar baby. In two days it has posted nothing substantive. Best to ignore and move on?

          • pax2u

            why do those who lie about the Catholic Church never have a denomination?

          • detonat3

            What does your question have to do with me? Also what do denominations have to do with the Bible? You are just spamming the same questions and out of context verses. You have no case.

          • pax2u

            those who call the Catholic Church idolatrous usually have no denomination that would accept them

          • detonat3

            “those who call the Catholic Church idolatrous usually have no denomination that would accept them” That argument has no basis in reality. Neither in the Bible or in daily life.

          • pax2u

            do you have a denomination?

          • The Last Trump

            Paxy, you’re embarrassing yourself. Say something intelligent and join the grown ups in conversation, little buddy! Surely you have something more interesting to say, yes?

          • pax2u

            I am sorry that you do not want your lies exposed

          • The Last Trump

            That you are embarrassing yourself is not a lie. 🙁

          • pax2u

            if you think that those that believe in Jesus Christ are an embarrassment then I am guilty

          • detonat3

            I haven’t seen him say any lies. I have however seen you throw Scripture about like it doesn’t deserve to be respected by being used in its correct context.

          • pax2u

            post a direct citation that Catholics worship Mary as God or your statements are lies, and you are a liar, and sin against God

          • Kim

            And you’re apparently not being a Christian either as you spread lies about other people. Maybe you should remove the log from your eye before you attack someone else’s splinter?

          • Neiman

            You do not understand scripture at all, you are misquoting. We Christians are called to make righteous judgments that we might expose and avoid all that is evil.

          • The Last Trump

            Rick Warren has been desperately trying to “marry” Christianity with Islam. This guy is a heretic and no follower of Jesus. Feel free to check up on it with a simple online search. These “lies” you find so offensive just so happen to be facts. Check it out. You can apologize to Neiman and the other Christians trying to reach you with the truth later. God Bless!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You got that right, Neiman! I ran into him elsewhere. He is either a cheap grace “protestant” or an a-theist wolf pretending to be a sheep. Frankly, I do not know how we could possibly tell the difference between those two species anyway. Good work, and keep soldiering on. You are doing great!

          • jcrosby35

            Explain your comment. And back it with scripture. And just how is Neiman following the devil? I want scripture and context.

          • Heidi K.

            Neiman is a true Christian.

          • pax2u

            what is your church? or are you and Neumannnnnn alone

          • pax2u

            Missler has been accused of plagiarism of New Age writer Michael Talbot’s 1992 book The Holographic Universe in his 1999 book Cosmic Codes: Messages from the Edge of Eternity.[13] Missler has acknowledged this mistake and has since publicly apologized and said a correction will be inserted in all unsold copies and the book itself updated in subsequent printings. Missler donated all of the author’s proceeds from the book to a ministry.[14] [15]

          • pax2u

            There’s no such thing as ufo’s or aliens since no living being will ever make it through the Van Allen Radiation Belt. Aliens, ghosts, ufo’s et cetera are demons trying to fascinate humans in order to lead them away from the living GOD. Please watch L.A. Marzulli’s videos about the alien deception!

            wow, just crazy new age crazy non sense, so funny heidi that you attack Christians

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Translation: “Neiman holds the same anti-Catholic presuppositions as I do so he is a True Christian™ by my infallible decree.”

          • wandakate

            DON FASS: We as Christians are not to judge (not even a Pope), however we are to discern and know what is truth from error. When you know the “truth” the “truth” will set you free. Neiman is being discerning.

          • Sherry Omalley

            GOD IS FOR UNITY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

          • Neiman

            Since you are all CAPS, I will do you one better:

            YES, BUT IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE BODY OF CHRIST IS, YOU HAVE A FALSE IDEA!

          • Fiat

            John 17:21 (Jesus prayed) “that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

          • Fundisi

            Yes, He meant the members of the Body of Christ, all those born again of His Spirit having been saved by Grace and them only.

          • JoyInTheLord

            What do you mean by ‘born again’, Fundisi?

          • Fundisi

            All those souls having accepted salvation by God’s Grace alone, by faith in Christ, having been converted are immediately, in Spirit, born again in the Spirit of Christ, their old natural spirit being dead, having no power over them, they are already in Spirit seated in heaven in Christ, Jesus living His life in and through them by His Spirit. They are not being saved, they are saved, there is no Purgatory, no earning or maintaining their salvation by any works of the flesh, while the good works of the Spirit are increasingly manifested in their lives.

          • Johnny

            Do you really believe that everyone is either so good and pure to enter heaven and others are so evil to be in hell for eternity or does it make sense that there is also a middle ground for offenses done?

          • Fundisi

            There is no one good at all, not not even one, we are all sinners, all evil. While their are some much less steeped in sin than others that are extremely evil, to God we are all deserving of death and hell. The tiniest sin before a Holy God denies us heaven. Yet, by the Grace of God, by faith in Christ, all our sins past, present and future were laid upon Jesus, He paid the penalty for our sins and if we just, sincerely, truthfully accept His Pardon, there is no one that cannot be saved. Yet, if you say no to that pardon and you die, there is no appeal left for mercy.

          • Julie

            Catholics believe the same.

            Now, how do you live this out? by being Anti Catholic and believing in all sorts of false claims?

          • Julie

            I missed a phrase of yours that contradicts Sacred Scripture. The Lord made ALL Good.

            He made man in His image, spirit and free will and intellect.

            It is man’s free choosing to sin.

            No one can make up for sin except that of God, His Son.

            Conversion is life long…enduring to the end.

          • hapy_thoughts

            MORE MANIPULATION! First you demean your target. Make sure they understand that they are broken in some way. If some poor soul with insecurities, or some self doubt should see that you can prey on that insecurity. Then you threaten them with hell. Then you bribe them with heaven. You are not using reason. You are not using facts. These are all just manipulation tactics. If you had any ground to stand on you make your point with reason and facts, but you don’t have reason or facts on you side. You are a hate-monger. You are a fear-monger. Stop trying to manipulate people.

          • Fundisi

            It is in the Bible and I know you reject God’s Word.

          • hapy_thoughts

            Yes. All those manipulation tactics are in the bible. You have been manipulated and you have no way of proving the bible is true. You claim the bible good, and maybe you can learn some lesson from reading some stories, but if you study the history of christianity post biblical times, you find that nobody took to christianity easily. From the Crusades to the Spanish Inquisition, christians would burn pillage and rape in the name of god. Not because their ideas were welcomed in the foreign lands. But because even were people were living in huts looked at the bible and asked, “Do you really expect me to believe this?” If look at the history of the christian church in America, you will find historically, they have been on the wrong side of every civil rights debate. From justifying the near genocide of the “savage” Native Americans, to defending the biblical right of slave ownership, to fighting the women’s rights movements. They were wrong but you cant accept the evidence in front of you. You have been manipulated Im willing to bet a good long chunk of your life, if not all of it. I am truely sorry for you. But end this cycle of manipulation. Stop trying to control other people.

          • Julie

            Do you realize alot of the accusations against the Church using the Crusades…and yes there were the rogues…there were actual fabrications made up by nationalist Englishmen prior to King Henry making himself head of the Church.

            The BBC came out exonerating the Church…you can look it up. And there was the issue in Spain of dealing with the remaining Muslim population, the Jews who opposed belief in Christ…after Spain was plundered by Islam for 700 years and a period of time of dhimmitude where Christians and Jews were second class citizens.

          • mark

            So if someone like Hitler or Stalin believed this are they saved, and if not why not ?

          • Fundisi

            If they believed they were saved and yet not repent of their evil before the world, they were deceived and are in hell.

          • mark

            My point is that you protestants say that you dont get to heaven by your good works, then why is there a need to be ‘good’?

          • Fundisi

            First, one does not genuinely come to Jesus as their savior unless they have come to a most sincere belief, a deep inner conviction that they are sinners, doomed to hell and are in need of salvation; which necessarily includes a desire to be able to stop sinning. If one genuinely comes to Salvation they must hate their sins or they did not come sincerely are were never saved.

            Being saved, as we enter into the school of Christ from Genesis through Revelations, we are being taught the utter futility of trying to stop sinning, we try and fail, try and fail, we may seem to conquer a sin here and there, but mostly we are led to understand that we cannot stop, it is of our fallen nature to sin. By struggling, we sooner or later learn we are trying to hold together a condemned house, it is an exercise in failure, the old house must be torn down. But, in Christ we have a new, heavenly dwelling, a new nature.

            Now let us say we are addicted to chocolate bonbons. We get fat and cannot stop, but let us say something changes in our bodies and we no longer have a desire to eat them at all and we do not miss them, we are cured of our addiction, but not by self will – not by just stopping, not by self efforts, but because our nature has changed and we longer desire them. When Christ lives in us, day by day, we stop desiring to sin more and more, we hate sin, we no longer want to sin and we stop sinning. But, is not us trying by self effort to stop sinning, it is not a matter of our will power, it is because of a changed nature, it is the Divine Nature in us changing our desires, our habits. We do not make this happen, it is Christ in us, living His life in us; and that is what we need, to consider ourselves dead to the old nature, the old house and alive unto Christ, wherein He lives His life in and through us. We cannot boast about it, because we did not earn it, we did not do it, it was the Spiritual fruit of our new nature in Christ. We just no longer desire those bonbons and only desire good food, our nature has changed.

            In James it is not about works unto salvation at all, but new works of love, which Divine love does not sin, is now flowing through us by the Holy Spirit. If we strive to make it happen we will fail and we accomplish nothing good, in fact we are trying to rob Jesus of His Glory by our self efforts. If it is the result of our salvation, our new nature, we are blessed by Him living His life in and through us, and wherein He receives all the glory, we the blessing. We are saved, past tense, we now rest in Christ in us and even when we fail and lean to the flesh, our past tense salvation is never in question, He ever lives to sanctify us and keep us holy in Him. Our only task is to receive His Life, to surrender to Him and let Him work in and through us and that Holy Life of Christ in us can never allow for sin.

            So, we are saved by Grace, but we also enjoy victorious Christian living by the same Grace of God, so we can never boast about how we are better than the next man, let all our boasting then be in the lord. My advice? STOP! Stop struggling, stop trying to not sin or be good, STOP IT, but surrender to Christ and let Him do it all.

          • mark

            So you must be saying that Jesus is lying when he told the rich young man that he would be perfect if he gave away all his wealth, and when the young guy went away sad Jesus said . It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven ?

          • Fundisi

            Of course I am NOT saying Jesus was lying. Of course I know that what is impossible with men is possible with God. Yet, you never made a case why you accuse me of questioning God’s Word, only a baseless accusation.

          • mark

            Sorry Fundisi my point is that you are right in saying that we need Gods grace, but you need to do good works also, In other words, faith without good works is dead. ST Paul I think said this.

          • Fundisi

            It was James.

            If one is saying that a life (one saved) of faith in the indwelling Holy Spirit will produce “good works,” and that anyone claiming to have been saved, but has no evidence of these good works of the Holy Spirit, then such faith is a dead faith and that we must question if one is saved, then I agree. If one is saying that we must add works to Grace in order to be saved, then it contradicts the Spirit in Paul that says salvation is by grace alone and NOT of works. If God by His Grace through Jesus was not capable of saving us to the uttermost without our adding our works to the issue, then Jesus failed as a Savior and we are all lost.

          • Martin Gran

            There is a purgatory. But you wouldn’t know of it because it is referenced in one of the seven book that were from the protestant bible.

          • Fundisi

            If there is a Purgatory then Christ did not pay for all our sins, His blood did not wash them all away, because by going to Purgatory (hell) we must still suffer for them and that is the doctrine of the anti-Christ. As in so many things taught by the false Roman Catholic Church it denies the all-sufficiency of Christ, it denies the efficacy of His sacrifice, it is that old, ugly, vile Grace+Works lie of the RCC.

          • Julie

            Why don’t you pick on the Orthodox? They as well are founded by the apostles.

            There was only one Universal Christian Church. The Eastern Churches let go of the Church of Rome and fell into nationalism and ethnicism.

            The papacy is what keeps us one and universal and prevents us from falling into our own regionalism.

            The Mass, if you can understand it, is eternal meaning it is drawing from the one time event of the death and resurrection of Christ…it is the Perpetual Sacrifice referred to in Sacred Scripture…it is Perpetual because this one event is made possible through Christ’s Church to be present to us today.

            Every Sunday in the Church is Resurrection Sunday..the 8th day the greatest feast in the Church, over Easter and Christmas. We go to Mass, we are experiencing the same fullness and presence of life in the same way those who experienced Him at His Resurrection.

          • John

            You are one confused and arrogant man. If you make it to purgatory it will only be because your misguided attacks on Mary and the Catholic Church are due to invincible ignorance. There are scores of former protestant preachers that once were strongly opposed to the Catholic Church and wrongly used the bible to attack it before they converted. Two of them, Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi, regularly appear on EWTN to spread truth and either would tear your biblical understanding to shreds. But it takes a real man to admit being wrong and many are too stiff necked, hardhearted and condemning to listen.

          • Fundisi

            Because I reject your Roman Catholic Faith and the false doctrines thereof, that makes me arrogant?

            Thank God I will never go to Purgatory because it does not and cannot possibly exist, it is either heaven or hell and I have my ticket punched for Heaven.

            I do not care how may Protestants depart from the faith and are apostate, it will not influence me to follow them.

          • Guest

            I too converted recently out of reformed/protestant/Evangelicalism.
            There is WAY to much obvious evidence, history and plain simple facts
            that point to Orthodoxy. Every cult gets started by saying that
            something has changed and we need to ‘reform’ or ‘restore’–as if it was
            lost to begin with. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the
            church. And the Orthodox have been there since the beginning–NOT the
            reformed churches. I was once a staunch anti-Catholic Evangelical. I
            didn’t even KNOW about Orthodoxy (i was never even taught about it) and
            when I discovered it (rather, when God led me to it in all His
            mercy)–everything opened up so clearly to me. The ignorance of Western
            Christianity against the origins of Christianity is ridiculous. To say
            that Orthodox and Catholic Christians are not real Christians, is to
            say that pretty much the entire Eastern nation of Christians are not
            Christian, considering that they are predominately Orthodox, Coptic and
            Catholic. Protestants weren’t even a thought at the start of the
            Church. The apostles started the Orthodox Church, and the gates of hell
            have not prevailed against it for over 2000 years, just as Christ
            said..

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            I too converted recently out of reformed/protestant/Evangelicalism. There is WAY to much obvious evidence, history and plain simple facts that point to Orthodoxy. Every cult gets started by saying that something has changed and we need to ‘reform’ or ‘restore’–as if it was lost to begin with. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. And the Orthodox have been there since the beginning–NOT the reformed churches. I was once a staunch anti-Catholic Evangelical. I didn’t even KNOW about Orthodoxy (i was never even taught about it) and when I discovered it (rather, when God led me to it in all His
            mercy)–everything opened up so clearly to me. The ignorance of Western Christianity against the origins of Christianity is ridiculous. To say that Orthodox and Catholic Christians are not real Christians, is to say that pretty much the entire Eastern nation of Christians are not Christian, considering that they are predominately Orthodox, Coptic and Catholic. Protestants weren’t even a thought at the start of the Church. The apostles started the Orthodox Church, and the gates of hell have not prevailed against it for over 2000 years, just as Christ said..I say this not out of pride…but out of what I used to have—a pride filled attitude in disguise of ‘standing up for Christ’ and ‘against the heresy of the Catholic Church’…which was nothing more than deception on my part. The reason for all these denominations is because of sola scriptura and private interpretation that has stemmed out of the reformed movement. All these denominations think they are right…but which one is it?

            Sola scriptura is not biblical, although scripture IS inspired by God (fact)…2 Thessalonians 2:15 – Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 3:6
            – Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
            that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly,
            and not after the tradition which he received of us.

          • Fundisi

            Too bad you have rejected salvation by grace alone and victorious Christian living by that same grace; and have returned to the vomit of self-works and the false teachings of the harlot.

          • Julie

            You don’t understand where others are coming from.

            With your use of language, you are not in the truly Christian way of truth.

          • Greg

            You don’t happen to be a member of Westboro Baptist, by any chance, do you, Fundi??

          • Fundisi

            NO! Neither do I defend their hatred of homosexuals, their protest at military funerals or any of their false theology. There is nothing in my words that could ever lead you to ask that question, but your own hate against Bible believing Christians.

          • Greg

            The only hate I’m seeing so far, Fundi, is from you. Your tone is pretty strident, and your accusations are quite without base.

          • Fundisi

            What or who do I hate? Be specific! Give quotes please.

            Unless and until someone provides evidence of my errors and I do defend what I say from God’s Word, then your accusations against me are false.

          • Greg

            Let’s start over, shall we?

            Hi, I’m Greg. *extending my hand for you to shake*

            It’s (for the moment anyway) a genuine pleasure to meet you, Fundi. I apologize if you felt attacked. I may easily be missing something that justifies the tone with which you’re speaking. But absent knowledge of that something, I am seeing posts like this…

            “Too bad you have rejected salvation by grace alone and victorious Christian living by that same grace; and have returned to the vomit of self-works and the false teachings of the harlot.”

            …and having a hard time feeling anything but pure, unadulterated contempt coming from you. *shrug* Maybe that isn’t the spirit you’re trying to convey. But the wording…*cringing*

            Know what I mean? The wording of posts like that one and the baseless assertion that I, someone you’ve never met before hates people that I for one, happen to have a great deal of respect for…That doesn’t paint a pretty picture.

            Help me out here. Where are you coming from? Why do you presume out of the starting gate that someone like myself “hates” Bible believing Christians? Catholics ARE Bible believing Christians. We wrote the Bible, compiled it into one book, and preserved it faithfully down through the centuries, so that all could continue to have access to it across the span of human history…

            The peace of Christ be with you.

          • Fundisi

            When we are contending for lost souls or for those in most grievous error, there is a time for blunt, clear talk, which inevitably will cause most people to be offended.Then people will accuse the person contending for the Truth not to be acting in love, it is because they do not understand the Love of God. I often recall many harsh word of Jesus and John the Baptist, when calling people to awaken to their sins, repent and for some most condemning words. In these cases they offended others, they so offended them they were killed, but love demands the Truth.

            I pray that I will speak the truth in love, humility, gentleness and kindness always; but, if speaking the Truth offends the hearer and some are saved or rescued from the error of their ways, I will risk being thought of otherwise.

            I am consumed with God being glorified and that Christ be honored in His suffering and sacrifice to save souls. When the Roman Catholic Church or any so-called church dare to add anything at all, no matter how small, to the Grace of God in saving souls; whether it be self-effort, works of the flesh, sacraments, ordinances, rituals or purgatory, to the free offer of salvation, it is dishonoring to the Lord. It says that Jesus did not by His sacrifice save us to the uttermost, it makes man his own co-redeemer, it makes him responsible for his own salvation, it is to teach that Grace alone, by faith alone – even that faith of Christ and in Christ was faulty, it fell short and it places man upon His throne. If the Jews could never gain salvation by the Law, how can we gain it by the same self works? How can fallen, sinful man add to the saving work of Christ? That is why the Holy Spirit through Paul said, Ephesians Two: “8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” All works of the flesh are excluded, before, during or after salvation. Yet, because of a single misinterpretation of James, so many have made that precious passage into a lie, brought disgrace upon Christ and have made grace of no effect.

            So, like Paul, at times I must sound harsh and bold, opposing all that opposes Christ and the Truth. I must make all departures from the Truth appear to be what they are in truth. While I dislike offending anyone or attacking their beliefs, I have no choice but to speak as God calls me to speak and leave the results in His hands.

          • Greg

            Fair enough, my friend. I think I understand much better where you’re coming from now and, believe it or not, sympathize. (…I’d still suggest that you use a LITTLE more…”seasoning” on top of the stuff that feels like a kick in between the legs only so that you’re more compelling to your hearers than you are when you “speak the truth” in a way that feels like you’re trying to force someone to eat nails…Know what I mean??)

            But at any rate… A couple more brief questions to try and get an even better sense of where you’re coming from:

            1) Are you a Calvinist? Do you believe that man has the ability to accept or reject Christ, or is that chosen for him in advance by God?

            And

            2) What is salvation? Many people like to think of it as a sort of “get out of hell free” card. And I wouldn’t really disagree with that, but that’s also not the question. The question is not what is the RESULT of salvation, the question is what salvation itself IS?

            Peace.

          • Fundisi

            1. No I am not a Calvinist.

            2. What is salvation?
            http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-doctrine-salvation.html

          • Greg

            Ok. Great start…(Looks like we see eye-to-eye so far, for the record.)

            One thing I didn’t see in that definition was any reference to an infilling of the Holy Spirit. Would you include that as well in your definition of salvation? Or is that a separate matter for you?

            Next question(s): What do you think the official Catholic teaching on salvation is? And where did you get this understanding? Did your parents pass it on to you when you were a child? Did you pick it up from a teacher in Bible college? A Christian radio program? Have you ever actually read what the Catholic Church has to say about her own definition of salvation?

          • Fundisi

            Holy Spirit
            The correct Christian doctrine is that as a seal, proof of our salvation, the Holy Spirit immediately indwells each believer. The believer’s old spirit life in the flesh, the old spirit nature, is born again of the Spirit of Christ, that is their now eternal spirit nature, forever one with Christ in Spirit. Now, there is also an infilling; that is, whereupon by faith, the Holy Spirit so fills their life, it becomes a true baptism in the Spirit, a fulness thereof as the power in every part of their life.

            Catholic teachings
            The Roman Catholic teaching is murky at best – they twist and turn scripture and read into it many, many things that do not exist in reality; they claim salvation is indeed by grace, but they then add this false idea, based falsely on James, that through works of the flesh, efforts of the self will, they must participate in completing their salvation; they are not saved, past tense, they are being saved, it is progressive. Part of this process is partaking of the sacraments, penance, confession of sins to the priest, the liturgy, ordinances, etc. and if not completed by physical death, still having sin in their lives, they must suffer some indeterminate time in Purgatory having those sins removed, whereupon at some point they move on to Heaven and eternal life.

            This is the spirit of the anti-Christ. Why? This false teaching says that Jesus did not save us to the uttermost, His sacrifice was not perfectly sufficient of itself, but they must add to His redemption by their own self will, their own self efforts of the flesh, they must by hard work complete this saving work. That is blasphemy, it accuses Christ of failing to save us completely, it says His blood has not washed us from all sins, but only kind of saving us and thus we become then our own co-redeemers. Yet, not only did Jesus pay for all our sins by His redemption, by God’s Grace, by His free gift; but Jesus promises that by this same grace, He will live in us by His Spirit, by His power we can bring the flesh into submission to the Spirit within and the life we now live, we do not live it, but He lives His perfect life and and through us. One of the most precious passages in Scripture is the following:

            Galatians Two: “20”I
            have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by
            faith in the Son of God
            , who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21″I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

            This tells us most clearly that the old Greg, if he accepts salvation by Grace alone – died spiritually, that old spirit man is to be now, hereafter, reckoned as being DEAD. Yet, even being dead – Greg is alive, but that life is not the old Greg, it is Christ in Greg, He will live His perfect life in and through Greg by His Spirit, by faith – yet even that faith as Peter tells us elsewhere, is the faith of Christ operating in Greg. If Greg accepts this as truth, he will not nullify grace by working to add his efforts to the perfect work of Christ, no Greg will rest in Christ, allowing Christ to life His Holy life in and through him.

            STOP! Stop struggling to be good and trying not be bad/sin, that is what the Holy Spirit taught us through Paul in Romans Seven. STOP trying to help Jesus, STOP trying to be anything, surrender to the life of Christ by His Spirit and guess what, everything we hope to be and hope not to be will manifest itself in our lives and guess what, Jesus as is His right, will receive all the glory and Greg will will receive all the benefit of living a Christ like life, being conformed into His image, but without any struggling, without works, just by giving up and surrendering to the indwelling Lord.

            I learned what I know by over six decades of study, being raised in a Christian home, by the guidance and grace of God by His Spirit, by reading what the Catholic Church teaches and by the words of a host of Catholics.

          • Greg

            Thank you.

            What is involved in the process of giving up and surrendering to the Lord? Is it an easy process?

          • Fundisi

            So easy it seems too easy. You simply tell God that it is your desire to surrender your life to Him in all things; but admitting that you do not have the strength, you do not have the ability to make such a surrender. Then you turn to Christ for His faith to flow in your life, you then expect every day and trust the Holy Spirit every day to work that surrender in your life, confessing no matter your emotions that He Who has given you that willingness, will by His Divine Power, make it into a reality.

            I must do it afresh every day and when I am made aware I am not so surrendered and am trying to do things by my own power and am failing, I may have to do it afresh often throughout the day, just keep confessing that it is the Lord that makes me willing to do of all His good pleasure and is giving me His power to carry it out. It is not about failure, we will all fail because the flesh wars against such surrender, it is about confessing and trusting no matter how it may seem and then in time we will see it in our lives.

            God must do it all. We just have to rest and trust in Him.

          • pax2u

            here is your fellow anti Catholic

            when do I report to the death camps?

            pax2u Gary • 11 hours ago

            Gary, you have said that you want the Government to execute homosexuals and some Catholics, have you added any others to your liquidation list?

            Gary pax2u • 7 hours ago

            You are one of the catholics.

            pax2u Gary • 6 minutes ago

            well Gary, so now you want me to be executed,

          • Greg

            Is that an easy process, though? I mean, the way you’ve described it, it almost sounds like becoming a really holy person (another “Moses” or “Elijah”) could happen in the span of a simple week or so…Who knows, maybe even a day! It’s all God’s grace working, right? So, if you just trust that He’ll take over…then BAM! Saint Fundi over night, right?

            Related question offered for clarification – You believe it’s still possible to sin after one has been saved, right? How does that play in to the mix?

          • Fundisi

            I do not appreciate the sarcasm of: “it almost sounds like becoming a really holy person (another “Moses” or “Elijah”) could happen in the span of a simple week or so…Who knows, maybe even a day”

            I did not say, hint or mean anything like that when we talk about surrendering our lives to God. If God chooses to use us for His purposes, anything is possible, but mostly we serve most humbly through our every day lives in small, quiet ways. I never said, nor hinted or implied that such surrender was an overnight process, my words made it clear it is a daily walk with Christ, it is growing in Christ like children, growing more mature and we are thus dedicated to walk for a lifetime, at the pace and in the way God chooses. Surrender means giving everything to Him and being thankful for whatever mercy He offers.

            We tabernacle in the old flesh, the weak nature of the flesh is highly prone to sin, while those sins are all forgiven in Christ, when we do fail and the flesh rises up in our lives, as John tells us we all do, we have Christ as our advocate before Heaven’s Court. He is there ever to sanctify us and keep us in right standing before the Father. When we continue in sin and resist His voice calling us to sincere repentance, He is a Father that, in Love, disciplines and trains His children, raises them up, that they might, by His Spirit, deny the flesh and no longer sin.

          • Greg

            There was no sarcasm in my quote about Moses and Elijah at all. There was some *confusion*, but no sarcasm.

            I asked you about the process of surrendering and trusting Christ and you described it as, quote, “So easy it seems too easy.” I thought, “…Wow!…Is that possible? I mean, if the process of surrendering to Christ were that easy, then it seems to me that one could become a great Saint in a very big hurry! Is that really what Fundi is suggesting?? I wouldn’t think so, but who knows. Let me ask…”

            Next question: Is there ever anything you do to help you surrender better to Christ? Do you fast, for example? Do you force yourself to wake up at a certain time each morning, early,to begin a quiet time with the Lord? Anything of that (or any other) sort?

          • Fundisi

            My only role is to willingly confess my sincere desire to surrender, even that will not come except by His Grace, it is up to the Lord to work that in and through my life and Him only; if He encourages me to do anything, He will first make me willing, He will then flow in my life by His Power and He will direct my path. That is living by His Grace, that is Him step by step living His life in and through my life, He is glorified thereby, I am blessed by Him in the doing.

          • Greg

            Why does your (or anyone else’s) desire play into the picture? In other words, 1 Tim. 2:4 tells us that God wants everyone to be saved. Why doesn’t He just save everybody then? Why, in order to be saved, does someone have to “trust Christ”?

          • Fundisi

            God’s call to Repentance and Salvation is to “whosoever will,” a most blessed, all-inclusive word, if you can include yourself in “whosoever,” it applies to you. Yet, He Who knows all things, knows that the vast majority, by their free will choice and the rebellion in their hearts, will not heed His call, they will reject His His loving offer.

            Let me ask you, if you were attracted to a beautiful young woman, if you loved her deeply, if you could give her a wonderful life with all she could ever want; and then you found out she did not return your affections, would it satisfy your love if you could force her to say she love you, your giving her no choice? Well assuming you would say no, because she would never really love you, you would know that she only come to you to get what she wanted in material things; then you might begin to understand that even though God loves us all, loved us enough to send His dearly loved Son to die for us, He could not be satisfied with forcing Himself on anyone. So, He gave us free will, He would offer His love to us unconditionally, but He too would have to allow us to choose.

            So, Jesus did pay for the sins of the whole world, He suffered the punishment that we all deserved for all our sins. Yes, He gave us all a Free Pardon, it was as if we never sinned at all. But, a pardon is not a pardon unless it is accepted, He said Greg I pardon you for all your sins if you place your Trust in Me and sincerely accept that Pardon, you will enjoy eternal life with me; but if you reject My Loving Pardon, you will not be saved, you will die in your sins and pay the full penalty. He allows you to choose; but one warning, He will not be mocked, He knows your heart and you cannot lie to Him.

          • Greg

            Regarding your second paragraph – BAM! Beautiful illustration. Well put!

            Given this truth, it would stand to reason that while God is faithful and will never turn His back on any one of us, we remain human and can and do turn our backs on Him some times, sadly. So, even after one has been saved, it is possible to later forsake God and be lost again…right?

          • Fundisi

            The true believer’s sins have been dealt with at Calvary and before God they are truly born again of Christ, that position eternally remains secure; while if we turn away from Him in sin there is a break in fellowship and a time wherein God, like any good Father brings divine discipline to bear to correct us, yet our position as His children remains secure. If one rejects Him, then they never really knew Him in the first place, they were never truly converted to Christ.

          • Greg

            And the difference between those two positions (true believing and false believing) is our personal choice, it seems you’re saying. If I recall correctly, the “false believer’s” sins have been dealt with at Calvary as well! But, ultimately, it doesn’t really matter because God is a “gentleman” and is not going to force anyone into relationship with Him…Right?

            But if that’s true, why would it be true only before the relationship begins? Why would it not hold true for afterwards as well? Obviously human couples “fall out of love” and get divorced from time to time. That’s not something we have to ever worry about on God’s side of things as He is perfect and never-failing. But we’re not. Right?

            And sure, God can bring discipline to bear on us, but how we respond to that discipline is precisely that – how WE (choose to) respond to that discipline. We’re free to let it correct us or to completely shun it, no?

          • Fundisi

            If one sincerely accepts salvation as a free gift of God’s grace and they are born again of His Spirit, how can they become unborn again and if they repent be born again and if they fail be unborn again and on and on?

            Redemption is a one time event, one is either saved past tense or they are not saved. While they may and most often do resist the Spirit and do sin, upon repentance Jesus ever lives to defend us before heaven’s court, while by His Spirit He brings correction to our lives. Yet, at no time can that salvation be at risk, it is as secure as Christ could possibly make it and that has to be, in accord with His nature – perfectly. If they can so-called fall away, it is only because that while they tasted the Spirit and the Love of God, they never came to a new brth in Christ. Jesus promises that no one that has come to Him by true faith can ever be lost, they can never be taken from His Hand.

          • Greg

            “Redemption is a one time event, one is either saved past tense or they are not saved.”

            So is a wedding. But the *marriage* is an on-going relationship until death (or divorce) do them part. When two people get divorced, no one ever says, “Well, that only happened because they weren’t REALLY married to begin with.” Right?

            “If one sincerely accepts salvation as a free gift of God’s grace and they are born again of His Spirit, how can they become unborn again and if they repent be born again and if they fail be unborn again and on and on?”

            By saying, “God, I need you” and then later on, getting tangled up in sin, declining His correction, and saying, “You know what, nevermind! I’m on my own…” And then later, they reconsider for one reason or another, etc., etc.

            People do get divorced and remarried…

            “Jesus promises that no one that has come to Him by true faith can ever be lost, they can never be taken from His Hand.”

            ….Assuming they persist in that faith, yes. If they fall out of faith, that’s another matter. If it were not possible for people to fall out of faith once they’ve truly entered it, I’m not sure I quite understand what most of the New Testament is for.

            Peace, brother.

          • Fundisi

            I must tell you two things: (1) I do not like games, I do not like wasting my time for no purpose. So, if it is games that interest you, I would rather not play. (2) In debates I am at a serious disadvantage, because I am honest, transparent and am easily victimized by deceitful people and so when a debate goes on without purpose and the other person is looking for ways to advance their agenda or are deceitful, I will get weary and go elsewhere. So we are, I believe getting into territory wherein I am coming to and end of wanting to go forward.

            God’s Word talks about a new spiritual birth, where the old fleshly nature is brought to a place of death and we have a new Spirit life in Christ.

            Galatians 2: “20”I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives [His life] in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.”

            A new birth, being a new creation in Christ: II Corinthians Five: “17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! I am born again in Christ and no part of the Body of Christ can be lost or ever die and He will be responsible in forming me into that new creation. Even in marriage, to God we are one-flesh before Him, we cannot be separated, let no man tear it asunder.

            I often recommend that new Christians should read Romans 6-8 over and over again until it sinks into their hearts. The essence is that there is a constant struggle between the old nature, the flesh, as Paul says the things we want to do, good works, those things we do not do and those things we do not want to do (sins), those things we do and then Paul talk about the misery of that struggle. But, the Holy Spirit starts in Chapter 8 with this encouragement, even while in this struggle two things are true: (a) There is therefore NOW and hereafter no condemnation for anyone in Christ Jesus, we cannot come into Judgment, our sins all settled at the cross. (b) If and as we learn in the School of Christ to walk by the Spirit, by His guidance and Power, we will cease fulfilling the lusts of the flesh and He will through us, working His perfect works in and through our lives.

            It is not a matter of persistence: 1. If we came to Him on His ground we are Born Again and cannot come into judgment. 2. Just as salvation is by grace, victorious Christian living must also result from that same grace. Once we awaken to the Truth and turn to Him in surrender, which means stopping to struggle and let Him live the Life of Christ in us, we will walk as He walked.

          • Greg

            Not playing a game, Fundi. I do have had an “agenda” and that’s simply been to try to grasp as solidly as possible where you are coming from so that we can have an effective exchange of ideas, rather than constant misunderstanding. I think I’ve accomplished that, appreciate your forbearance up to this point, and am happy to tell you that your perspective on salvation and the Catholic position are remarkably similar.. Not exactly the same. But pretty darn close.

            I hope to have a solid summary of the Catholic position to post for your review within 24 hours. (I’d just quote the catechism, but it lays things out in language that’s not “super accessible” to people who are not Catholic, so I’m in the middle of working on my own “translation.”)

            In the interim, I would encourage you to take a peak at this…

            http://www.catholicworldreport.com/NewsBriefs/Default.aspx?rssGuid=pope-modern-martyrs-massacred-by-corrupt-people-who-hate-jesus-70696/

            Peace.

          • Fundisi

            I am not interested in your Roman Catholic Links.

            While the Roman Catholic Church uses very similar terms to deceive hundreds of millions of souls into hell – when they add works to grace, works of any kind, they are denying Grace, they are denying Christ – period, end of subject.

          • Greg

            When we first engaged each other, I had denounced your “hateful” spirit and you said, “Oh, but you misunderstand me!” I was willing to and did hear you out and had a change of heart as a result. Are you willing to show me the same courtesy?

          • Greg

            You do not have a right to denounce that which you do not understand. And I am quite certain you do not understand the Catholic position on salvation. I would love to lay it out for you, but am not going to force it on you, for sure. So…I pray and wait.

          • Greg

            Reminding you in the interim that the definition of bigotry is denouncing someone else for something they don’t believe, plugging your ears all the while to make sure you don’t get the correct version.

            You will win no souls to Christ by bearing false witness.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Fundisi, I am saying this to myself more than to you, but let us be careful with our words. St Paul says that we must be gracious in our words. Jesus says, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

            Lies and falsehood cannot withstand the splendor of truth. The Catholic Church has been here for more than 2000 years. Jesus says that ‘hell will not prevail over it’, and so the Church has withstood the test of time. Try to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The first paragraph of the Prologue is enough to blow your mind away:

            PROLOGUE

            I. The Life of Man—To Know and Love God

            1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of timehad come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

            Here’s the link: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

          • Julie

            God bless you, you speak the truth.

            Those who hold such concepts are so indoctrinated and so afraid of the Universal Christian Church, its original title that included both Latin and Eastern Churches, that they are unable to seek the truth.

            This is also the great flaw of many good Evangelicals who do not judge but likewise share the same misconceptions about Christ’s Church. My daughter’s mother in law told me she just ‘couldn’t handle early church history’. She also is into Joyce Meyers…good lady that she is, I have heard her, some others and believes in this concept of rapture that came out of England 150 years ago, and the preacher who first defined and preached it later recanted.

            You are correct…there is nothing in Scripture supporting Sola Scriptura, the Jews never did either. They had the temple, God directed worship, lawful priest authority and prophets whose prophecies came true and affirmed true faith in the Lord.

            The Council of Trent reviewed all the books of the Bible and affirmed all were for public revelation. This done by many people, not some sole Protestant founder who went about his ways with no challenge.

            The Early Church Fathers (ECF’s) all had erroneous ideas. But they submitted them to the Church for debate and the search to further and more deeply provide us understanding of Christ, True God and True Man,…Christ Who has 2 wills but only does the will of the Heavenly Father….

            So many people reflect on parts or single lines of Scripture that cause them to reflect and wonder more deeply. The Church is there to answer and guide these deep reflections.

            Yes we are to believe in Christ the way the apostles taught us and the traditions they gave us to live our faith out in a structured Church…not separate, fragmented little groups or isolated individuals.

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            Thank you! Yes, you are all right…it was actually studying deeper, the doctrine/idea of a pre-trib rapture that led me to Orthodoxy. 🙂 That was the starting point of the journey. Turns out it wasn’t true :p. Looking back on that doctrine, it is so ridiculous to believe such a things. Doesn’t match up with scripture and the church on SO many levels. Thanks for your kind words. One thing that is not found too much, now that I look back to my reformed days, is humbleness and lack of pride. Those two seem to be huge in the reformed circle. I have my reasons on why that might be, but I won’t say.

            Thanks

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            “… it is either heaven or hell and I have my ticket punched for Heaven.”

            But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Cor 9:27)

            If Paul himself even had even this thought, why are you so sure of this ticket? Again, I’m not judging-I used to have this same mindset, and nobody could convince me any differently–and yes, if anyone did, I accused them of being a heretic etc.

          • Fundisi

            I cannot help but groan at such ignorance of God’s Word: It is so sad that you love yourself and hate Christ.

            But I keep under my body
            This is not to be understood by the apostle of his natural body, and of his keeping it under by immoderate watchings, fastings, and labours, sacraments, ordinances or by whipping and scourging, and lying upon the bare ground, and other such practices; but of the body of sin, the corruption of nature, and of that being laid under some restraints; of the mortifying the deeds of the body through the Spirit, of crucifying the affections with the
            lusts, of putting off the old man with his deeds, as concerning the
            former conversation, and of making no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof:

            I myself should be a castaway,
            Nor rejected, or disapproved of; that is, by men: the apostle’s concern is, lest he should do anything that might bring a reproach on the Gospel; lest some corruption of his nature or other should break out, and thereby his ministry be justly blamed, and be brought under contempt; and so he be rejected and disapproved of by men, and become useless as a preacher: not that he feared he should become a reprobate, as the word is opposed to an elect person; or that he should be a castaway eternally, or be everlastingly damned; for he knew in whom he had believed, and was persuaded of his interest in the love of God, and that he was a chosen vessel of salvation, that could not be eternally lost:

            You no nothing of Christ, you cannot even trust Him for your salvation, instead you rely on your self-will, your puny efforts of the flesh to try and keep from losing your salvation or to please God. You know nothing of living by the Spirit, of being saved and victorious all by the Grace of God, you want to be your own co-redeemer, you are a spiritual mess.

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            Sir, with all due respect- you have no clue about my background and clearly no idea about Orthodoxy. Who says I do not trust Him for my salvation? You only added a commentary under the actual verse. Under what authority is that commentary valid? I do not know what you were trying to prove there.

            But anways…Lord have mercy on all of us.

          • Fundisi

            I wish I could knock it through the thick heads of every Catholic – When you say you trust in Christ for your salvation, but then you add self-works, sacraments, ordinances, Purgatory or any thing at all, no matter what, no matter how small, as playing any role at all in your salvation, you are thereby denying the very trust in Christ you pretend to yourself that you have. I wish I could convince you that God must have all the glory from first to last, beginning to end, alpha to omega, Jesus having preeminence in all things pertaining to salvation and victorious Christian living. Do you think God will share His glory with you? He shows us the utter futility of self works, he then saves us by a gift of His Grace, He says it is not of any works of the self, ending all boasting and self glory. He then calls us to live by that same Grace, to allow Him to work out in us all that is needed for time and eternity and that is why every saint will cast their crowns at the feet of Christ, it is saying ‘no Jesus, you did it all, it is all, everything to your glory, I have nothing to boast about before you.’

            But, the Catholic Church and Catholics want to rob Him of His Glory, to demand some credit to themselves and that is anti-Christ.

          • Julie

            We don’t believe in a free ticket to heaven.

            Obviously by your attitude and convictions, you are already saved. And you are totally out of it from understanding what Catholics truly believe. This dichotomy should indicate to you that there is more to learn about true religion as well as yourself as both are tied together.

            The Bible, Christianity should not be used as a veil of religion to show a different agenda especially that which promotes itself and condemns that which it doesn’t understand…………and that to me doesn’t indicate the way of salvation.

          • Fundisi

            If it is not absolutely free – then you are lost, as God says no one by their obedience can ever be saved, as it is absolute perfection or death in hell. God will not permit anyone to be saved by their self efforts, it denies Him His glory in saving man, it is a free gift or nothing. You have chosen nothing!

          • Julie

            Again…you are really speaking from your own sense combined with lack of understanding of the Universal Christian faith…Sola Scriptura was not practiced by the Jews or Christianity…Gutenberg was Catholic and invented the Gutenberg Press but remained Catholic.
            Christ did not pass out bibles to people. He passed on His witnesses not books. And what He did write, we could not see….it was private…writing in the sand.

          • Julie

            Again, I am so sorry Fundisi…but you truly do not even know what Catholicism teaches…you are simply promoting the kind of spins that are out there..predominantly in American culture. You don’t see this so much in Europe because they are closer to their Christian roots in how faith was lived out. Their faith was decimated because of WWII and other secular ideas…

          • JoyInTheLord

            Your last paragraph here, Fundisi, is just absurd. How do you know that the Catholics ‘demand some credit to themselves’? In what ways? How do you know what we’re thinking?

          • Julie

            Why don’t you just back off and turn to Christ more. Get educated, take another class on Christ, His divinity, He True Man.
            You cannot comment because you really don’t know what and how we believe. You are misusing the Word of God to condemn others. You are not to judge other people, especially when you cannot grasp or refuse to find out what we truly believe.

          • RoodAwakening

            I pray you will be humble enough to accept it when you find out otherwise.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Fundisi, do you know that the existence of Purgatory is due to the mercy and love of God? He fully knows that we, human beings, are fallible—we make mistakes a zillion times —and you admit that no one can stand before God stained with sin —so, how do we go from here? You said that Jesus paid for all our sins —does that mean that any murderer can just continue to murder because his sins were paid for anyway?
            I cannot explain it better than Tim Staples, See what he says:

            Work out Salvation

            Ephesians 2:8-9 declares: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” This is another text commonly used to dismiss good works as necessary for salvation in the life of a Christian. However, once again, context is the key to understanding Paul. In verses 4-6, he says: “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our
            trespasses, made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with him . . .”

            Context reveals that St. Paul was talking about the initial grace of salvation or justification by which we are raised from death unto life. The construction of the Greek text of Ephesians 2:8-9 makes clear that both grace and faith are entirely unmerited. Many Protestants are shocked to discover this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches—and baptizes babies to prove it. How much more can the Church do to demonstrate this truth? What kind of works could a newborn baby have done to merit anything? However, once that baby grows up and reaches
            the age of accountability, he must begin to “work out [his] own
            salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in [him], both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12-13). Or, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

            Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.” That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: “. . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” That is works.

            In Matthew 12:37, Jesus puts any thought of justification by faith alone to rest: “. . . for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

            To read his full article, see this link:http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

          • Fundisi

            On Calvary, which of your sins were not laid upon Jesus, which ones were left not atoned for? If even one, you are dead in your sins and cannot be saved, not ever, for it takes the Blood of the Lamb to wash them away and He has died ONCE for ALL and can never be thus sacrificed again.

            You and most Catholics, if you were converted to Christ, simply do not know who you are in Christ, not at all.

            Are you or are you not by faith, by His Grace already in Christ Jesus, Romans 8:1 “1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,” Get that, if you are in Christ Jesus by His Grace, by faith, you are NOW, past tense, already settled, cannot come into any condemnation, no judgment, all your sins have been laid upon Christ, all of them, not one left not atoned.

            “John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.” Do you by His grace, through faith believe in Jesus as your Savior and Lord? Then you will not, you cannot be judged. If you are now by grace, through faith part of His Body, the only true Church, can you imagine part of His Body being guilty of any sin, ever being judged in any way or having to spend time in Purgatory to have any sins dealt with, does Jesus have a single sin in His Body?

            You do not know who you are in Christ or maybe it is because you are not in Christ at all. because, you are looking at your flesh, your old nature and its doings, its failings, but that is not you if you are converted to Christ; that is, if you have by faith died with Him and if He now lives His Perfect Life in and through you by His Spirit.

            Galatians 2 – “20”I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21″I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

            If you have come to salvation by His Grace, through faith, Romans 5 – …10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,…” Get it yet? We children of God are to reckon, to consider ourselves to be dead, to have died to that old sinful nature, that old spirit life, then to have a renewing of our mind about these things, that it is no longer the old person of the flesh that lives any longer – that old person is dead and then by faith we must believe we live NOW in Jesus, in the Son of God, it is Christ now living in you not that old person you were. That new person in Christ is free from all sin and that old person is dead, it is condemned and the failings of the old house cannot be laid to your account.

            I could go on and on, but you and most Catholics have no idea who you are NOW in Christ; perhaps that is because in your works oriented Gospel, you are not, sad to say, in Christ at all and that is apparent because you are so conscious of your old nature ruling your life and your need to pay for your sins. If you have been converted to Christ, then Jesus has paid for all your sins, not one has not been dealt with fully at Calvary, you are a new creation: II Corinthians 5: “17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!” Get it yet? The old person you were, if you are truly converted to Christ, is dead, gone and the new person in Christ is here, alive and in Christ; and, no part of Christ is or ever can be guilty of sin.

            Yes, as John tells us, even believers, still leaning unto their flesh, their old nature, still rises up and sins, but our heavenly advocate, Who is not Mary by the way, ever lives to make intercession for us; that is, before God he makes it known that we are part of His Body – washed in His blood, He keeps our feet clean (sanctification) and we are therefore every whit clean.

            Oh, one short word about good works, in our flesh, in our old nature, we (old person) are not capable of doing any good works at all. Yet, for those converted to Christ, having been born again in Him, having His Spirit within, He will work those good works in and through our life, but it will not be you, not your self will, not your self efforts, it will be Him and it will all be to His glory. As to sins of the old nature, He will in His way and time deliver your fully from the power of the flesh and thereby live His sinless life in and through you.

            This wearies me and I have to get better at saving these things, building on these truths that I can just copy/paste them and not get so weary.

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            I too converted recently out of reformed/protestant/Evangelicalism. There is WAY to much obvious evidence, history and plain simple facts that point to Orthodoxy. Every cult gets started by saying that something has changed and we need to ‘reform’ or ‘restore’–as if it was lost to begin with. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. And the Orthodox have been there since the beginning–NOT the reformed churches. I was once a staunch anti-Catholic Evangelical. I didn’t even KNOW about Orthodoxy (i was never even taught about it) and when I discovered it (rather, when God led me to it in all His mercy)–everything opened up so clearly to me. The ignorance of Western Christianity against the origins of Christianity is ridiculous. To say that Orthodox and Catholic Christians are not real Christians, is to say that pretty much the entire Eastern nation of Christians are not Christian, considering that they are predominately Orthodox, Coptic and Catholic. Protestants weren’t even a thought at the start of the Church. The apostles started the Orthodox Church, and the gates of hell have not prevailed against it for over 2000 years, just as Christ said..

          • Julie

            So true…deliberately refusing…sinful.

          • Julie

            I would come back to add that you have no concept and refuse to learn anything authentic about Catholicism which is the other side of Eastern Christianity…that has its patriarchs, bishops and priests, and sacraments.

            Since you are the way you are…best you try not to comment on anything you are devoid of understanding.

            The blind cannot lead the blind……………….please stop the division it lacks substance…and put 100% into seeking the Lord and the authentic road to heaven. It is narrow and difficult…….

          • Fundisi

            What you fear is I do understand that the Roman Catholic Church is anti-Christ and its Pope the False Prophet.

          • JoyInTheLord

            I’ve been reading this ‘antiChrist’ in your post —-what is an antiChrist?

            Here is the Letter of St John, explaining what/who is antiChrist:

            “Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son” (1 John 2:22); “And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God; and this is Antichrist” (1 John 4:3); “For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an Antichrist” (2 John 7). Also the time, the Apostle places the coming of Antichrist at “the last hour” (1 John 2:18); again he maintains that “he is now already in the world” (1 John 4:3).

            How do you know that the Catholic Church is antiChrist? Do you know the faith that we, Catholics, profess? Here is the summary of our faith which we recite every Sunday at Mass:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

          • Martin Gran

            When you refer to the Catholic Church, the Church that gave you the Bible, as a cult all you are doing is placing a big sign over your face that reads, “I am not able to logically think in an intelligent fashion”. All you are doing is showing people, true Christians, how truly ignorant you are. I’ll pray a Rosary for you!

          • av8trx

            While the word “Purgatory” doesn’t appear in the Bible, it represents the purification (i.e., purgation) that must occur before a soul can enter heaven. Through human weakness, we all sin. While Jesus died for our sins, we must: Mt 5:48 “be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” I seriously doubt most people are perfect when they die. The Doctrine of Purgatory shows the mercy of God, which is beyond all human comprehension. If someone dies with sin on his soul, for which he has not atoned, he goes to purgatory. The soul is perfectly happy, because he knows he is saved. His primary suffering is not to be in the presence of God. When that soul is fully purified, he enters heaven. Mt 12:32 “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” 1 Cor. 3:15 “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The most clear affirmation of the existence of Purgatory is found in the Septuagint: 2 Maccabees 12:42-45, of which I only quote: “Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” This entire proof passage explicitly affirms an intermediate state where the faithful departed make atonement for their non-mortal sins. Martin Luther’s reaction demonstrates the strength of this passage. It is so contrary to his “justification by faith alone” theology, that he removed 2 Maccabees, along with six other books, from his version of the Old Testament. Ancient Christian tomb inscriptions from the 2nd & 3rd centuries frequently contain an appeal for prayers for the dead. Tertulian, in the year AD 211, wrote about the practice of praying and sacrificing for the dead as an established custom: “We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthdays.” This practice of praying for the dead was universal among Christians for 15 centuries before the Reformation.

          • Fundisi

            These endless discussions/debates with you Roman Catholics give me no pleasure in the sense that I desire to offend no one, yet sadly when we defend the Truth, offenses must come and we can only pray that they will be used to encourage souls to seek the Truth, which Truth is Christ, Who is among other things “The Truth.”

            It is not the presence or lack of the presence of the word Purgatory in the Bible. It is the absolute fact that the very idea of such a place is so dishonoring to the Lord, the fact that it holds Jesus up to contempt, to denigrate our Lord. It is positively blasphemous on its face. It means despite His sacrifice, despite His shed blood, despite His blood supposed to have washed away all of our sins, making us whiter than snow, despite His precious blood having turned the Altar into the seat of mercy, our sins remain upon us, that we must add to His saving work with our own, that we must play a part in our own salvation, that we must suffer torments after this life. Oh, how terribly blasphemous that is, how Purgatory is an absolute curse, a stain upon the sacrifice of Christ.

            Hebrews 10: “14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” We are, by faith, already in Spirit made perfect in Christ, while we see sins in the flesh, that flesh is condemned, we are to consider that flesh, that old nature as dead and to reckon the Perfect Nature and Holiness of Christ as being credited to our account. If you are saved by Grace, if the blood of Christ means anything – you are made perfect in the beloved.

            I will not go into the books of the apocrypha. I will note that although the Old Testament is often quoted by Jesus and the writers of the New Testament, Maccabees is not quoted or mentioned at all. Why? Because to the Jews, Christ, the Apostles and the early Christians these books were not considered divinely inspired or authoritative.

          • M B

            I personally know many, many, former Protestants who became Catholics( I, being one of them)-as we came to the Truth we could only marvel at its beauty and sacredness, and we not longer could fight it or deny it. Which its impossible to do unless you are retorting to lying or being guided by the Father of Lies.
            .
            We were set free, led by the Holy Spirit and brought the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, built on the Blood of Christ and brought to the ends of the earth by the devotion and faithfulness of thousands of Holy martyrs beginning with the apostles.
            That alone gives you a measure…

            And to have someone the likes of Martin Luther
            (NO martyr here) to pridefully disregard and amend the Scriptures 1400 years later,? that did it for me.
            If you are a Protestant, read about the early Church Fathers, investigate and find out what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes in. read about the early church…
            That alone should be the minimum before you begin to criticize the belief of the Holy Catholic Church.

          • Suzanne Graf Slupesky Beck

            I became a Catholic after years of being an evangelical protestant and i have never looked back. When you study what the Catholic church ACTUALLY teaches, instead of just THINKING you know what it teaches, you will see ALL the fallacies in the protestant church. Very sad, as Jesus wanted us all to be ONE, in the Church HE founded.

            Fundisi, I would absolutely challenge you to study what the Catholic church ACTUALLY teaches. Go back and read the Early Church Fathers, and stop skipping all the generations of Christians from Jesus to Martin Luther or John Wesley (which is what I was taught to do). When I actually read HISTORY, I had to become Catholic.

          • JoyInTheLord

            St John Neumann said and I am paraphrasing it here that to know history is to cease becoming Protestant.

          • Frank Stubbs

            I’m fascinated by your conversion. I am the son of a Southern Baptist minister and am really fascinated by your adoration of the Roman Catholic church. What I see in your many posts, is an absolute denial of anything non -Catholic, with a flippant dismissal of other views of Christianity, simply on the basis of what you have “learned” with no time for what others think they might have learned. Jesus was a teacher, but strangely, I see a complete lack of interest in your teaching anybody anything. It seems to be “I’m right, you’re wrong, ’cause I’ve studied, got it right and you haven’t.” I’m not sure even the Pope is that dismissive. Your posts often seen to brag about your understanding of Church history, and yet, so far, I see that you seem to gloss over many of the most unsavory and bizarre moments in the history of the Church. Im sorry that you’re seemingly unfortunate family situation growing up has embittered you. Not the Christian that I would have expected from someone so seemingly devout.

          • Suzanne Graf Slupesky Beck

            Wow, thanks for sharing. I hope you feel better, getting that off your chest. Blessings to you!

          • Frank Stubbs

            Actually, I’d rather have the benefit of your knowledge. I, too, have read church history, not skipping “from Jesus to….”. Unfortunately, I’ve had to read it in various English versions, not any of the original languages- Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, Italian, Greek, or others. And, as you know, each English translation from who knows through how many other languages and social and historic filters, reads differently. It’s one of my many questions to you. How have you arrived, personally, at your mastery of Christianity? I know that I have yet to find anyone as angry and impatient with other Christians as you seem to be, who claims to have such a complete understanding of the history of Christianity.

          • pax2u

            Nieman believes that Catholics are not Christians, based on his own hatred of everyone who does not agree with him. It was necessary for Nieman to change his name to Fundisi when he was caught lying about the Bible. He posted that Jesus made a prophecy that st Peter would be “hung” upside down to support another anti Catholic, when asked to support this statement with the Bible, Book, Chapter and Verse, he refused to answer and changed his posting name, very sad

          • RoodAwakening

            The state of existence we call Purgatory exists precisely BECAUSE Christ paid for all of our sins. Purgatory is definitely NOT hell; it is more like the “foyer” to Heaven, where most of us bound for Heaven get a final clean-up prior to entering into the banquet hall. Please consider 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 in light of Matthew 22:1-14.

            Really, if you’re going to “instruct” Catholics about what THEIR Church teaches, you should at least do the research from primary sources (i.e., the full Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, to begin with, at the very least, both available for free online), beforehand, so you know what you’re talking about–even if you don’t happen to agree with it. It appears from this article that that is what Mr. Warren is going to the trouble to do, and I respect him for it.

          • Fundisi

            Purgatory
            http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html

            I disagree with every thing you have said.

          • JoyInTheLord

            I followed the link that you posted but it is manned by folks like you —not what the Catholic Church teaches. Why can’t you at least read this: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/purgatory
            and see what the Catholics are talking about?

            If you just believe what folks like you say, then you’ll get nowhere, Fundisi. Do some real research: take both sides of the coin, not just your side.

          • M B

            Amen! I personally know many, many, former Protestants who became Catholics( I, being one of them)-as we came to the Truth we could only marvel at its beauty and sacredness, and we not longer could fight it or deny it. Which its impossible to do unless you are retorting to lying.
            .
            We were set free, led by the Holy Spirit and brought the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, built on the Blood of Christ and brought to the ends of the earth by the devotion and faithfulness of thousands of Holy martyrs beginning with the apostles.
            That alone gives you a measure…

            And to have someone the likes of Martin Luther
            (NO martyr here) to pridefully disregard and amend the Scriptures 1400 years later,? that did it for me.
            If you are a Protestant, read about the early Church Fathers, investigate and find out what the Catholic Church really teaches and believes in. read about the early church…
            That alone should be the minimum before you begin to criticize the belief of the Holy Catholic Church.

          • Julie

            Grace alone comes from Lone Ranger Martin Luther…that is theology in the face of 1500 years of Christian faith.

            You don’t get saved saying a declaration of faith…saved at 40 backsliding at 60 materially rich at 80 and dead in faith.

          • Fundisi

            So, the Holy Spirit through Paul, both were Lutherans?: Ephesians two: ” 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…”

            James was a Roman Catholic and wiser than both the Holy Spirit and Paul?

          • Julie

            It isn’t grace alone as you think.

            You are making yourself the portal of grace by promoting yourself and your sense of self righteousness.

            I have seen too too much of this mindset in my life time and the Lord wants us to be on trembling knee..not arrogance and presumption.

          • Jesse

            Joh_3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

            Joh_3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

            1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

          • Shellbell

            Thank you
            Finally something to read wonderfully spoken and truth
            Wonderful

          • Jesse

            Thanks for ‘wonderfully spoken’ but it was scripture I can claim credit for.

          • Shellbell

            That’s right
            All glory to him
            Iove “positive people”

          • JoyInTheLord

            That’s right, Jesse. We, Catholics believe that once we were baptized, we are born again! Baptism makes us born again, as Jesus said to Nicodemus. But baptism = born again in water and spirit.

          • Fiat

            Acts 10:15″Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean.” Jesus is Love, He gave His life for all, we should seek to love like Him so much so as to give our lives. Praying for you and for all.

          • JoyInTheLord

            And what is your idea, Fundisi, if I may ask? Christ prayed, “That they may be one, as You, Father, and I are one.”

          • Fundisi

            That those souls born again of the Spirit of Christ, being members together of the Body of Christ, might be one in Spirit and Love, having unity in Him. This not not mean everyone calling themselves Christian but are not, which is most such people making that profession and certainly none of those outside the Body of Christ.

          • JoyInTheLord

            I’m wondering what your position is about those souls born before Christ who led righteous lives. They did not know Christ, so are they lost, not saved?

            What about those aborigines, the simple, unsophisticated folks, say, those living in the hinterlands, who have no way of learning the Gospels? Are they lost too?

          • Judy

            The one world religion you talk about is not the unified Kingdom of God that Rick Warren and all other devout Christians are talking about. We as Christians need to stand together on the truths of Jesus so we can stand against the real antichrist of secularism, materialism, agnosticism, atheism; the antichrist throughout the world trying to take away our religious freedom…freedom to follow our Christian faith. Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are…ONE. If we don’t unite for the Kingdom of God we will be forced to follow the WORLD. That’s the real one world religion the bible talks about. Jesus said we were to be in the world but not of the WORLD.

          • Fundisi

            The one-world religion is all of apostate Christianity, which includes the Roman Catholic Church, that is why it is referred to as the Great Whore, organized, liberal minded Christianity is a spiritual prostitute and together they will all face God’s Judgment. The greatest enemy of the Church is the lies of the organized Christian Church that has turned souls from the pure faith in Christ.

            Jesus prayed we wold be one, but He was only referring to all those born again of His Spirit and whom in the Spirit are part of the Body of Christ. He was not talking about the majority that profess a Christian faith, but who have sold their souls to this world.

          • Julie

            false.

          • Julie

            Sounds like 1850’s restorationists…independent Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists…coming out of the good ol USA.

            No Holy Spirit…no Church..not until 1800’s America.

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            I used to believe the Pope was the false prophet etc. too. Until I actually read scripture and the details surrounding this topic.

            “The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was
            thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled
            from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from
            the grievousness of war.” (Isaiah 21:14-15)

            No Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there” (Isaiah 13:20)

            The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea.” (Jeremiah 49:21)

            “‘As Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown, along with their neighboring
            towns,’ says the LORD, ‘so no one will live there; no man will dwell in
            it,’” (Jeremiah 49:18).

            These verses alone describe Saudi Arabia- Mecca. NOT the Vatican. Sorry-it just isn’t. It talks about Arabs pitching tents, hearing it from the RED SEA.

            Also, antichrist is one that denies the Father and the Son. The Catholics, Orthodox and Coptics do NOT deny the deity of Christ. But Islam does. Staunchly denies the deity. In fact it is considered blasphemy to say that God has a Son. That will get you beheaded- just like John reveals the saints will be in Revelation (and is also happening now with ISIS.)

            “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22)

            Islam rose out of the Arian heresy, which the Orthodox church swiftly condemned. Out of that arose all of these other cults such as JW, Mormons etc.

          • Fundisi

            The Roman Catholic Church is anti-Christ because it teaches a false Gospel, it denies salvation by grace alone and adds self-works to the sacrifice of Christ, it denies His sufficiency to save to the uttermost, it places a host of things between the believer and Christ, it offers Mary as a co-redeemer with Christ. Sorry, I hate to say it, but in every way it denies the sufficiency of Christ for all things in this life and eternity. Because he teaches that, the Pope is a False Prophet, and he takes upon himself the name of Holy Father which belongs to Almighty God alone.

            You have turned your back on Jesus!

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            Can you please explain the verses I posted to you? Sir, I am not Catholic, but I refuse to label them as antichrist as I used to. Orthodox and Catholics to not worship Mary, they venerate her, just as the earliest Christians did and just as Luke 1 says to. Luke 1:28. “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women.”

          • Fundisi

            There is nothing to explain, they pertain to nothing, they are of no relevance.

            I have never said that Mary was not blessed by God to carry the body of Jesus, that among all women she was distinctly honored among all women. But, beyond that there is nary a passage of God’s Word that says we should pray to her or she can hear our prayers, not one passage that says she has any special influence on the Lord or can intercede for anyone. Jesus is our ONLY intercessor – he will not share His glory with any other, even Jesus when Mary and her other sons by birth to Mary came to see Jesus, what did Jesus reply? He said that all His disciples were his mother and brothers and sisters, saying in effect she had no special role greater than any child of God in heavenly things.

          • http://www.believersview.org/ Nicole

            While I do not agree with the Catholics about Mary being a Co-redeemptress with Christ..I still do not look at them as THE antichrist. Here is the Orthodox view on Mary in regards to being a co redeemptress (and the source below)

            “The Virgin Mary in the Orthodox view is not regarded as a mediatrix or
            co-redemptress. She is an intercessor for us, and the content of prayer
            addressed to her is a request for her intercession. The Orthodox concept
            of the Church is the basic reason for the invocation of the Theotokos
            and all the saints..”

            http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/dmitri_veneration_mary.htm

          • Fundisi

            Nicole they are wrong, I am sorry, I do not choose to offend anyone; but I know above all things that Jesus will not share His glory with anyone. To the degree we are glorified it is only and always in and through our being in Christ. Mary was blessed by God, but there is not a single passages that says Mary hears or answers our prayers, Jesus said about His own mother – “…20And it was reported to Him, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.” 21But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” He thus made it clear she had no special role in heavenly matters, He could have honored her as being special, He did not.

            Jesus must be our all-in-all, first to last, beginning to end, alpha to Omega, He must have absolute preeminence and superiority in all things pertaining to life on earth and eternity – He will share His glory with no one. God demands that our salvation must be a free gift of His grace with no works, no things, nothing we can add and boast about. The same goes for victorious Christian living, He must receive all the glory and our only role is absolute surrender and even that must be a gift of His grace. From first to last it is by faith alone and as Peter said, even that faith is from Christ, not of ourselves. When we or the Romans Catholic Church or any religion places anyone or anything, even our own efforts in that mix, it is by its very nature anti-Christ.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Please, Fundisi, before you rant on all these falsehoods, read what we believe in. Save yourself from further embarrassment.

            http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

          • JoyInTheLord

            And under whose authority that you’re saying the ‘Roman Catholic Church…is referred to as the Great Whore’?

            This Church that compiled the Bible and has preserved it down the centuries, started universities and hospitals, the biggest charitable institution in the world?

            By their fruits you shall know them, so Jesus says.

            Your claims don’t hold water.

          • Julie

            Get a Catholic Catechism and then come back.

            Please. You are living in the spin zone..sorry to say that…but you are feeding on junk.

          • toTelltheTruth1123

            The Body of Christ is EVERYONE who is baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Catholic and Protestant. BTW the Catholic Church did not add 7 books to the Bible, the protestant movement removed the 7 books. The early Church Fathers brought the books together, which became the Bible. The Catholic Church is the custodian of the Truth through the unbroken line of Apostolic Succession and since the Bible is the truth, custodian of the True version of the Bible.
            Jesus told Peter and the Apostles “What sins you forgive on earth are forgiven in Heaven, What sins you bind on earth are bound in Heaven”. By this he gave to Saint Peter the keys of the kingdom, which have ben passed down through the unbroken like of Popes to present day.
            Popes, like all men are human and have human frailties and temptations. Some have had issues and sins that drove people to separate from the Church, but so did Luther, Calvin, and other fathers of the protestant revolution who instead of brining the sin tot he attention of the sinner and working through God to bring unity, they sinned greatly by causing division.
            Any person who promotes unity THROUGH Jesus Christ and IN Jesus Christ is performing the will of the Father.
            The person who promotes unity through HIS, HER, or Humanitarian interests cause division and are of Satan.
            We, as Catholics, do not worship Mary or the saints, but we do ask them, since they are not dead (the only dead are in hell). This is the same as asking your neighbor to pray for you, which is a common Protestant and Catholic practice.
            Now I will agree that in the “end of this age” a man (cardinal) will usurp the throne of Peter. He will not be a Pope, but call himself one. Pope Francis is not this man, he is an authentic Pope, a true man of God Also NO person will know the identity of this man, who will not be recognized as the Antichrist until it is too late. Yes, I am stating the Antichrist is to be a religious figure and the False Prophet is a political figure. Is it not interesting how Satan has twisted our understanding so much people believe the opposite?

          • jcrosby35

            With Christ as the head. Not the pope.

          • JohnnyVoxx

            With Peter as Christ’s appointed head of the Church on Earth, and the Popes as Peter’s successors. And the Catholic Bishops as successors to the other Apostles. This is all crystal clear.

          • jcrosby35

            Christ
            the solid Rock

            Mat
            7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will
            liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

            Jesus Christ is the Word and the rock we build on. He never advised anyone to
            build on Peter.

            Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

            Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
            the living God.

            Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
            Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father
            which is in heaven.

            Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I
            will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

            Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and
            whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever
            thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

            Note
            the verses in context.

            First
            Christ’s question. First by God’s revelation Peter got it right. Jesus is
            the Christ, the son of God. Second notice Peter the small rock is blessed
            because of this revelation because it is this revelation that the church
            is built on. Christ is the rock and it is His Word that we build on. Peter has
            no power but Christ does.

            Christ
            alone has the keys to life and death, heaven and hell.

            Built on a Rock

            “Therefore, everyone who hears
            these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his
            house on the rock.”—Matthew 7:24

            The Christian life is hard work. Christianity involves systematically
            striving to implement the truths of God’s Word into your life. Spiritual depth
            and maturity do not come without consistent effort.

            Jesus had just concluded the Sermon on the Mount, which sets forth some of
            the most profound truths ever spoken. The Son of God had clearly explained the
            kind of life that is pleasing to the Father. Yet Jesus knew, even as He was
            concluding His sermon, that some of His listeners would leave and never apply a
            word they had heard.

            Jesus said that a man who takes the words of God and builds them into his
            life is like a wise man who builds his house on a rock. Rocks are hard to build
            on. It takes great effort to attach a foundation to a rock. A house built on
            sand provides instant comfort; building on a rock is laborious and tedious. Yet
            building on sand leaves the builder in a vulnerable position, while the one
            building on the rock is secure.

            How can you tell what kind of foundation a life has been built on? Watch to
            see what happens when a storm comes. A life built upon the Word of God will
            withstand the very storm that sweeps away the life that did not heed God’s
            Word.

            There are no shortcuts to spiritual maturity. Maturity only comes through
            hard work and obedience to what God says. The next time you hear Jesus
            speaking, immediately begin to firmly build His truth into your life, so that
            no storm can unsettle you.

            Jesus the Rock of our salvation.

          • Julie

            Christ is the Cornerstone.

            There are about 25 Protestant theologians who following their academic studies, affirmed the Catholic Church correct in that Peter was named personally…not taken from an inanimate and worthless rock.

            Aramaic and Greek use is personal, not inanimate…here you need to be a linguist and multi lingual.

            Just following an anti Catholic preacher man who has no education…just doesn’t cut it but makes so many confused and misguided.

            Peter is the rock upon which Christ built His Church.

            Catholics are Ecclesial Deists. We know Christ was God enough, Man enough, to decide to found His Church on the apostles…saved and redeemed by Him and filled with the Holy Spirit, called and chosen to be the foundation for His Church.

            The Bible is text. And Text is most vulnerable to misinterpretation.

            If we were solely Bible based, then Christ would not have needed the apostles but just pass out bibles…when for countless centuries, most people couldn’t read.

            Get the drift?

          • jcrosby35

            Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

            Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

            Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

            Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

            Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

            Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

            Get the drift?

          • Julie

            And He also said in John 6, those who eat and drink of My Body and Blood will have eternal life. He brought this up before and MOST of His followers left Him thinking of cannibalism.

            Recall the Tree of Life, the only named Good Fruit of which Adam and Eve did not eat…eating to find divinity in God. They ate the forbidden fruit…the altar of sacrifice now becoming the Banquet of the Lord.

          • jcrosby35

            Read the whole chapter Julie.

            Only those whom the Father calls come to Jesus and Christ’s words were intended to be taken spiritually not physically.

            Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

            Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

            Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

            Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

          • Julie

            Thank you for the beautiful passages.

            This is reflecting the Holy Spirit now at work in Peter, then chosen by Christ to head His Church, when Peter affirmed through the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Living Son of God.

            Likewise our own way of looking at things is also a working of the flesh.

            You go back before the Last Supper…and Christ there gave the context of the Eucharist. He had many followers then. When He told them they would eat of His body and drink of His blood, they left.

            Then Peter responded by saying that only the Lord could bring them eternal life…where else could they go? This point of eternal life personified in the Eucharist.

            Those few who remained faithful to the Lord, just as Abraham went against nature to obey God and sacrifice his only son, this precursor to the Eucharist revealed one’s faith to be tested before one can come to the Lord at the Sacred Meal.

            Recall when Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad…and there in the garden was only one good tree named for them to eat, the Tree of Life…how the prophets foretold of the messiah coming from the root of Jesse…and dying on a tree….

            And how the Lord Jesus…through the Angel Gabriel specifically pointing to the shepherds….the Savior wrapped in swaddling clothes…and placed in a manger….a feeder.

            The manna from heaven…pomegranet motifs to be placed on the robes of the priests in Exodus….

            Christ Himself is the banquet…the Covenant of the Blood, the Sacrificial Lamb for the atonement of sin.

            Consider the Jewish custom of giving thanks every day in the breaking of the bread…this now the new altar of God’s love for us, not the bloody sacrifice of animals…

            Note that in the old Jewish calendar, the feast of life was March 25, it became the feast of Abraham and his sacrifice of Isaac….and March 25 in the Church, the feast of the Incarnation…God become Man, the Word of God become Flesh for us.

            Abraham was told to sacrifice the instead the ram stuck in the bush, pointed out then by the Angel Gabriel.

            Christ chose the time to be born…in the constellation of the Ram…Aries…to become the Lamb of God for us.

            I could go on and on and on.

            Go do a search on St. Justin the Martyr and find the one in how the Mass was said in the Roman countryside…the parts of the Mass, the tone, the spirit of the liturgy then throughout the ancient Christian world and his explanation completed in 154 AD….is the same form of worship today.

            If Christ only came in Word, then that is all He needed..He could have placed a Bible on the altar of the Sanctuary and let it go at that.

            But He did not. He chose 12 apostles fulfilling the 12 tribes of Israel.

            So the next step as I shared with you is then how did the apostles lay out the Church, Scripture, form of worship, who has authority, and the foundation of the Creed.

            The Lord did not leave us orphans, it up to each one of us and our own individual spirit to find the way.

            No, He gave us His visible and concrete Church…Jesus is the Lamb of God in Revelations…the Lamb with 7 eyes…7 representing the 7 sacraments where He nurtures us in faith and life.

            I have been Catholic my entire life and I am now in my latter 60’s. I will never change…and if something happened to His Church, like Peter, where would I go…I cannot go to a man made church whose construct is to protest the Western Latin Church while ignoring the Eastern Orthodox…and the Lord loves all of us equally. Equally.

            The Lord provided all that we needed 2000 years ago.

          • jcrosby35

            Julie you really have a problem. You need to be born again.

            Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

            Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

            Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

            Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

            Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

            Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

            Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

            Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

            Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

            Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

            Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

            Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

            Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

            Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

            Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

            Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

            Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

            Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

            Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

            Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

            Joh 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

            Joh 3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

            Joh 3:25 Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.

            Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

            Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

            Joh 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

            Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

            Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

            Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

            Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

            Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

            Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

            Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

            Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

            Only Jesus died for your sins and He gave the Holy Spirit to comfort His people.
            Your dependence on the RCC is not spiritually healthy. You will be lost if you focus on men rather than God.

          • Julie

            We are reborn in Baptism and become members of the Mystical Body of Christ…and we believe that conversion is a life long promise…we re new our baptismal promise every time we enter church and bless ourselves with Holy Water.

            What I am referring to…and this is where we have problems…is the denial that Catholics are Christian.

            The kingdom of Christ is within, the Pearl of Great Price…and you cannot simply make blanket statements that I am saved so to speak and willfully deny the reality of living faith in Catholics.

            I answered you quite well and the fact that it affected you in such a way that you had to insult me.

            That is what Catholics receive all the time from these independent so called Christian sects.

            The end times…it has always been with us and St. Paul referred to it as well.

            Sorry…

          • jcrosby35

            Insult you?
            You really got a problem. I lead you to scripture hoping you will be born again and you call that and insult. You insult the Holy Spirit with some kind of unbiblical approach and usurp God’s Word. Lord have mercy on you.
            Only God’s Word remains forever all else passes away and you want to trade God’s truth that is your business. You want to know about Christ’s word of binding and losing. In Jesus name and authority,
            Get behind me satan.

          • Julie

            You say ‘you have a problem’….that is revealing you not me.

            Likewise you are the one now name calling and at the very worst.

            I never referred to you as such or called you an evil name.

            Sorry, you just revealed yourself

          • JoyInTheLord

            Julie, thank you for gracing these parts. Truly, we have a lot of work to do. 🙂

          • Julie

            Yes we do.

            There is a psalm….I prayed it so many weeks ago…from the Liturgy of the Hours…the Prayers of the Church…that every priest must pray daily and the monastics…the religious and secular orders and lay….read twice daily….Psalm 95 is always the introductory psalm…today’s goes right into Psalm 24…and states the requirements for those who climb the mountain of the Lord….clean and pure…refers later to the Beatitudes as hermeneutic key….

            The other was a one liner….the evening prayer…God likes those who approach Him on trembling knee….

            God alone holds our salvation…and when we have divided hearts and seek to put ourselves over other Christians and refuse to truly look at what we truly believe…the Lord within the Catholic Church…presumption…I am saved…but hate the Catholic Church, the great harlot, etc….I see a divided heart that is truly not centered on the Lord.

            We consider all Christians outside the Church as our separated brethren…and you never hear our priests getting up at the pulpit denouncing any human being…because every human being is made in the image of God and is being called to the Lord…24 hours a day, 7 days a week…

            We are all in need of conversion and won’t be in perfection until we are in heaven.

          • Greg

            J (if you’re still around, it looks like you posted this a couple months ago), who did Christ hand the keys to the kingdom of Heaven over to before his suffering and death?

            While the king is away, who is in charge of the kingdom until he returns?

          • JoyInTheLord

            Read Matthew 16:19. It’s all there.

          • jcrosby35

            The Holy Spirit. John 14-16

          • Greg

            Christ handed the keys to the kingdom of Heaven to the Holy Spirit? I’m sorry I was looking for the biblical answer.

            JoyInTheLord has offered a strong hint.

          • Julie

            The Jewish Christians in the first 100 years following Christ knew very well what the holder of the Key meant.

            You go back to Isaiah 22:22..a person was chosen to have authority in ancient Israel. And he was identified in town by wearing a large key on his person.

            When you become a devout Catholic, you really discern and experience the binding faith of Our Lord. The Eucharist strengthens us to endure alot of crosses…and stay married.

          • SmellsBells

            Correct. The Pope of Rome is merely God’s Vicar here on Earth.

          • jcrosby35

            The Holy Spirit is the church’s vicar not some man. John 14-16

          • Julie

            Personified in the papacy.

            The Lord is Our Shepherd and He did not leave us alone with a bible to try to figure it out.

          • jcrosby35

            Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

            Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

            Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

            Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

            Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

            Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

          • JoyInTheLord

            That’s what Jesus said: I will not leave your orphans. I will send you the Consoler Who will reveal to you all things.

          • SmellsBells

            Your interpretation of the Bible in this instance is in error. That’s not surprising given the fact you’ve trashed all of God’s gifts save for 66 books of the Bible.

          • jcrosby35

            Excuse me. Instead of rhetoric how about some facts backed up with scripture. I am sick and tired of answering trolls like you who think they can slander someone else without any truth given in return.
            You got some thing to say, then back it up.

          • SmellsBells

            So you resort to rudeness and name-calling? No thanks…

          • jcrosby35

            Well smells bells you have stayed true to your colors.
            Bye

          • jcrosby35

            God’s gifts? Do you know anything about God’s gifts?
            Have you read Rom.12, 1Co. 12 or Eph. 4.
            What gifts has the Holy Spirit blessed you with. 1Co. 12? Do you practice the gifts in your life according to 1Co. 12-13-14.
            What gifts have I trashed?
            State them and a Biblical definition with and explanation.
            You can put up or shut up. Your choice.

          • Kirry

            we need someone to lead us here on earth. Sheep without a shepherd are lost. Jesus is our heavenly shepherd but until we get there, we need one here. All you have to do is look at the heretical ideas that pop up in the 149,000 different denominations to know that people need guidance in the here and now. The Holy Spirit cant have inspired all those peoples differing beliefs. The Holy Spirit unifies, not divides. The pope and the teaching authority of the church give us guidance so we don’t just go off following our own “inspirations” of the Holy Spirit and start our own churches and lead others astray. Perfectly reasonable and logical.

          • jcrosby35

            The problem with the church is the people who lead it. Understand. The Word of God and that the Holy Spirit is our guide. John 14-16

          • Julie

            We are supposed to pray and do penance for our pope, bishops and clergy. Every day at every Mass, the Pope’s name and the local bishop are named…for us to pray for them.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Yes, that is the problem with the Church: it is full of sinners like me. However, the Church is holy because CHRiST founded it.

            And by the way, CHRiST came to rescue sinners like me.

            Sick people need the doctor, not those who are well. So He says.

          • jcrosby35

            The scripture context you are using is for the unsaved sinner not the saved.

            Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

            Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

            Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

            Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

            Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

            Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
            Get it right. Build your house on the solid rock.

            Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

          • JuliaM

            Christ is the head. The pope is just an earthly representative of the Church. One to spread the Word of God. Human and sinful just like the rest of us.

          • Johnny

            Nobody said he wasn’t but he is Christ’s representative till he returns just like the apostles led the early Christians after Christ ascended to heaven

          • JuliaM

            Yes, I was replying to jcrosby who said we don’t need the pope.

          • jcrosby35

            Christ does not need human represented. Read John 14-16. The Holy Spirit represents Christ on this earth. You need to be born again. John 3:3………………………..Read the whole chapter.

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            True Christ does not a human representive, but he still founded his church on Peter. Thou (singular)art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church. To thee (singular) I give the keys to the Kingdom, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven. The Keys are a hallmark of authority in Old Testament times. Read the Early Church Fathers Writings by William Jurgens. They are early Christian writings that prove that it is the Catholic Church Jesus founded. They consist of the Christian writings of the 1, 2, 3, and 4th century. you can find them in the Library, because they are authentic Historical writings.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Indeed, Christ is the Head of the Church because He established it. The Pope is the vicar of Christ on earth, not the head.

          • jcrosby35

            The pope is anti-Christ and has tried to delete Christ as the only way of salvation. John 14:6

          • Martin Gran

            Typical protestant scare tactic which really is nothing but insipid trash.

          • Julie

            I think these are the false teachers St. Paul alluded to that would come about in the latter days..

            There are about 34,000 divisions and fragmentation from greater American Protestant ecclesial communities.

          • Julie

            Prove it.

            Go back 2000 years and find out who had the final authority in handling disputes among the 5 patriachs of Christianity.

            Peter founded the Church but he was bishop per se although he can be called as such….the papacy came into effect through the bishopry to Pope Clement, about 95 AD.

            Again…one must study how people back then worshipped and approached Scripture.

            No one was forced to tithe. The wealthy were the only ones to support widows, orphans and the poor…and then again, they themselves chose how much they wanted to give.

            You look at those who met St. Jude and other apostles and would carry something personal with them…like a piece of cloth…beginnings of sacramentals.

          • jcrosby35

            Peter did nothing to establish the new church. His greatest moment was Pentecost.

            James was the founder and leader of the Jerusalem church and Paul went to the Gentile.

            Read Acts 15.

            Paul not Peter went to Rome. Peter stayed in Jerusalem.

            It is Christ and not Peter who is the Rock of Salvation and the Church.

            Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

            Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

            Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

            Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

            Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

            Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

            Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

            Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

            Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

            Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

            Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

            Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

          • JoyInTheLord

            What’s your authority in saying this, jcrosby35?

          • jcrosby35

            The Word of God.

            Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

            Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

            Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

            Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

            Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

            Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

            Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

            Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

            Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

            Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

          • JoyInTheLord

            Either you do not understand what you are talking about or you try to give credence to yourself by quoting the Scriptures.

          • jcrosby35

            Well now Join the Lord. You are so smart as to tell me what I do not understand so now tell me what I do not understand and back it up with scriptures.
            So far your comments only show half statements of slander. You got some thing to say then back it up.
            Jesus Christ is Lord.

          • jcrosby35

            And what credence do you have?
            You are a typical libtard. If you cannot beat them then slander them.
            Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He is the only way to the Father. You need to be born again. John 3:3……………… other wise you have nothing and absolutly nothing to offer.

          • jcrosby35

            And what credence do you have?
            You are a typical libtard. If you cannot beat them then slander them.
            Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. He is the only way to the Father. You need to be born again. John 3:3……………… other wise you have nothing and absolutly nothing to offer.
            Now get it right.

          • jcrosby35

            Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

            Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

            Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

            Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

            Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

            Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

          • Johnny

            Worry about Muslims taking over instead retards

          • Heidi K.

            Yes but not wit roman catholic idol worshippers!

          • pax2u

            so do you have a denomination?

          • fleger9minus1

            Give that idol worship nonsense the gate.

          • cathy

            Heidi you have much to learn on this ignorant remark, Catholics do not worship idols don’t be deceived.

            The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. The beauty of statues and icons move us to the contemplation of the Word of God as he is himself or as he works in his saints. And, according to Scripture, as well as the testimony of the centuries, God even uses them at times to impart blessings (e.g., healings) according to his providential plan.

            While it can certainly be understood how a superficial reading of the first commandment could lead one to believe we Catholics are in grave error with regard to our use of statues and icons, the key to a proper understanding of the first commandment is found at the very end of that same commandment, in verse 5 of Exodus 20: “You shall not bow down to them or serve [adore] them.”

            The Lord did not prohibit statues; he prohibited the adoration of them. If God truly meant that we were not to possess any statues at all, then he would later contradict himself. Just five chapters after this commandment in Exodus 20, God commanded Moses to build the ark of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Here is what God commanded Moses concerning the statues on it:

            And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends (Ex. 25:18–19).

            In Numbers 21:8–9, not only did our Lord order Moses to make another statue in the form of a bronze serpent, he commanded the children of Israel to look to it in order to be healed. The context of the passage is one where Israel had rebelled against God, and a plague of deadly snakes was sent as a just punishment. This statue of a snake had no power of itself—we know from John 3:14 it was merely a type of Christ—but God used this image of a snake as an instrument to effect healing in his people.

            Further, in 1 Kings 6, Solomon built a temple for the glory of God, described as follows:

            In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. . . . He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees, and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. . . . For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood. . . . He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers; he overlaid them with gold (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32).

            King Solomon ordered the construction of multiple images of things both “in heaven above” (angels) and “in the earth beneath” (palm trees and open flowers). And then, after the completion of the temple, God declared he was pleased with its construction (1 Kgs. 9:3). Didn’t God know what King Solomon had done?

            It becomes apparent, given the above evidence, that a strictly literal interpretation of Exodus 20:2–5 is erroneous. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that God prohibits something in Exodus 20 that he commands elsewhere.

          • Heidi K.

            Millions of roman catholics bow down to idols (Mary, the saints) even the pope bows down to them, their churches are filled with graven images – you are the one who is ignorant.

            http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/satanism_in_the_vatican.htm

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Heidi, of course you will try to quote information which supports your thesis. I challenge you to read from Catholic sources what Catholics believe. When I want to know what another Christian sect believes, I go to their websites for answers. http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/prayers/documents/papa-francesco_preghiere_20140608_invocazione-pace.html

          • Amy Hall

            I agree! The Vatican is more like a “House of Horrors”, “sensual” and down right creepy.

          • Zolicon

            And I agree with You.

          • Amy Hall

            “Strange Children” (as King David says.) “Oak Trees without leaves”, “Gardens without water.”

          • Zolicon

            “And then some.”

          • BeWhoYouAre

            If they bow before a statue it doesn’t mean they are worshiping the statue, but what the statue represents (Jesus).

            Also you quoted jesus-is-savior.com. Do you know it’s run by a convicted child abuser?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiIBmpZRYZw

          • Heidi K.

            Roman catholics bow down to all kinds of graven images an tha’s sin! The 2nd commandment states: You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of ANYTHING in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall NOT BOW DOWN TO THEM or worship them; for I the Lord your GOD, am a jealous GOD, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

            Here’s another site:
            http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-idolatry.html

          • BeWhoYouAre

            OK first of all, don’t insult my intelligence by posting links to hate-based fundie websites.

            Secondly, don’t tell me Catholics are worshiping graven images just because they bow in front of them. Have you ever taken the time to ask the Catholic what they are doing when they do that? Because I GUARANTEE they will tell you that they’re praying to God. NOT to the statue.

            This is an age-old fundamentalist Christian lie about Catholics and I for one am sick to death of reading it.

          • Heidi K.

            Please take time to read the link it’s very important for your afterlife. Yes, I’ve met a lot of roman catholics , they usually get very aggressive when I talk to them about idolatry. It’s very sad that the majority of roman catholics simply ignore the 2nd commandment.
            Please pray to GOD in the name of our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST to give you the HOLY SPIRIT who leads us to all truth!!!
            Blessings

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I know all about gotquestions, it’s up there with carm.org and jesus-is-savior.com as the most incorrect, hateful and anti-Catholic websites out there. No thank you. I recommend you get the hell away from fundamentalist Christianity because it’s basically brain cancer, it’s taught you lies and hatred about Catholics and it’s not doing you any favors. And the reason they get aggressive with you is because they are not committing idolatry, they worship Jesus Christ for heaven’s sake – trust me on this one, I was Catholic most of my life!

          • Heidi K.

            I can’t believe you are ignoring GOD’s 2nd commandment!

            There’s nothing hateful on got questions, on the contrary. Maybe you want to listen to Richard Bennett, a former roman catholic priest:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k-jvWchaXE

          • BeWhoYouAre

            I’m NOT ignoring God’s second commandment. You simply fail to realize that Catholics are not breaking it. Catholics tell you what they’re doing, you ignore them and insist they are breaking a commandment, and stick by you lie. That is HATE.

          • Heidi K.

            Born again Christians don’t hate anyone. We hate sin but love the sinner. If you don’t believe how serious idolatry is, read the story of Daniel!
            Please pray for the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT.
            GOD bless

          • BeWhoYouAre

            You are deliberately misrepresenting Catholic beliefs. That is dishonest and hateful. There is no idolatry going on, I don’t know why you’re having such a hard time understanding.

          • Heidi K.

            I’ll pray for you.
            GOD bless

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Don’t bother. Just don’t trash your fellow Christians.

          • Amy Hall

            I think most Catholics are so caught up in being in the “club” that they fail to recognize what the Vatican is (really) about.

            http://biblelight.net/verita.htm

          • Heidi K.

            So true.

          • JuliaM

            You two are like a couple of immature high school girls picking on someone who is different than you. That is not Christian! Give it up….there are more important things in life. Don’t waste it trying to bring down fellow Christians. You have no idea what is in their hearts. You should know that if you read the bible. Only God can judge a person’s heart. Yes, idolatry is a sin, but you don’t know what is truly in a person’s heart, yet you are insisting you do! Who do you think you are, God? Now that’s idolatry!

          • JoyInTheLord

            I can’t resist laughing.

          • Arc Ordanza
          • Arc Ordanza

            In this special episode of the Journey Home, Marcus talks about 10 verses of Holy Scripture he never saw when he was a Protestant. Marcus was reared Lutheran but, while in college, accepted Christ in a Charismatic Congregational church. After attending Gordon-Conwell seminary he was ordained a Congregational minister. Seeking doctrinal authority he became a Presbyterian minister. Still frustrated with his inability to know for certain whether what he preached was the Truth, a “chance” meeting with an old seminary classmate, Scott Hahn, started him on the road Home to the Catholic Church….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJDVKSF7Hjo

          • brireward

            Russia sent many communist men into countries all over the world in the 1930-50’s to become priests. They are not priests but were sent to undermine the catholic church – why? because the devil knows it is the true church and communists are aetheists… Therefore you don’t want to listen to a fallen away “catholic ” priest. Some have not fallen away and are still sending out the wrong education but most are dead at this writiing.
            PLEASE GOD ENLIGHTEN YOUR “:SHEEP”!!!

          • Amy Hall
          • JuliaM

            Yes, they probably get aggressive, because you don’t listen to them and just keep repeating the same thing over and over no matter what they say to correct you.

          • brireward

            I don’t know what you mean by aggressive but Catholics do not bow down to images. They might kneel before a statue and pray to the saint -mother of God or blessed Joseph and ask them to pray for them or -someone else. That’s like having a picture of someone you love and kissing the picture in an act of love for that person.
            This is the devil’s world today and he puts all kinds of obstacles in the way of worshipping God and His people who love Him.
            REMEMBER the devil hates humans and will do all in his power to put a barrier between them and God. BEWARE!!!!
            PLEASE GOD ENLIGHTEN YOUR “SHEEP”!

          • ort

            Then why the need for a statue? God Himself tore the curtain of the temple in half, giving humanity the right to come to Him directly. Jesus’ death on the cross made this possible.

          • Greg

            There is no strict “need” for a statue, Ort. Statues are “gratuitous” objects that simply aid us in fulfilling the commission of Phil. 4:8 to think on whatever it good, pure, holy, etc. The Saints were certainly that!

            Peace.

          • brireward

            That curtain is still down! He is right on our altar all the time as bread and wine. Do you have Him in that perspective or are you one of those who turned away from Christ, saying “this is hard to believe” when He pronounced He was actually in the bread and wine? He said then to His apostles, Are you going to leave Me too? Peter said no – what about you, have you left Him? Do you have bread and win consecated into His body and blood as He said to do at the last supper? And if not – why can you argue any issue of Christianity?

          • ort

            “Just as man is destined to die ONCE and face judgment, so CHRIST was SACRIFICED ONCE to take away the sins of many people……” Hebrews 9:27-28.

            We are to take the bread and wine as Jesus said–“do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me.”
            For your church to keep sacrificing Jesus over and over ad nauseum is an unscriptural disgrace and scripturally WRONG. To insisT that God resides in a piece of bread is ridiculous.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Ort, what is ridiculous is what you insist. Do you celebrate your birthday once? Do we celebrate the Fourth of July once?

            How much more is the institution of the Holy Eucharist! Read what the Catholic Church teaches on this most beautiful truth:

            http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm

          • ort

            Oh, let’s just throw that pesky verse out of the Bible so people can keep sacrificing Christ day after day after day……………..
            You have no comprehension of clear, concise scripture. Why is that?

          • JoyInTheLord

            I’m sure you have photographs of people you love. Why keep those photos?

            Ort, you’re right about the curtain of the temple being cut in half. Then, become a good Catholic and come to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist!

          • ort

            I don’t adore, worship or venerate photos of my family.
            Jesus doesn’t live in a piece of bread.

          • Amy Hall

            Jupiter/Zeus, Apollo, Diana, all standing up tall at the Vatican!
            (In the name of what? Art?) Or are they proud of their “Roman” heritage?

            And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said, Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana (Artemis), and ofher image which fell down from Zeus. (Acts 19:35).

            So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. (Acts 19:27).

          • JoyInTheLord

            Amy, where did you get this nonsense about Jupiter/Zeus, Apollo, etc., all standing up tall at the Vatican?

          • Amy Hall

            Go look at the statues that are at the Vatican. Look up the pagan religions associated with them: Zeus, Anubis, Apollo and Daphne, Osiris, Bachus, Hercules, Semiramis & Nimrod.

          • Arc Ordanza

            God Said To Make Them

            People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

            David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

            Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”

            What About Bowing?

            Sometimes anti-Catholics cite Deuteronomy 5:9, where God said concerning idols, “You shall not bow down to them.” Since many Catholics sometimes bow or kneel in front of statues of Jesus and the saints, anti-Catholics confuse the legitimate veneration of a sacred image with the sin of idolatry.

            Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Similarly, a person can kneel before a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

          • George Cameron

            Numbers 21: 6-9, Kings James Bible. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.” The Lord told Moses to make a bronze serpent for the people to look at in order to save them. This is your quote: “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of ANYTHING in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below” Which is correct?

          • Zolicon

            Which is against His first and second copmmandments:

            ” 1 – Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

            2 – Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

          • George Cameron

            Hey zolicon, since you believe that Catholics are doing something wrong by having statues in the church and you’re using Scripture to bolster that claim, then check out Numbers 21: 6-9, Kings James Bible. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. According to your logic, God instructed Moses to violate the commandment he had given him. You see how one can take any verse from the bible and twist it to fit one’s agenda? You have to take the entirety of the bible in it’s proper context to determine its meaning. Unfortunately, the reason there are so many different Protestant denominations is that their founders could not agree on the correct interpretation of Scripture. Did you know that the Lutheran church is only about 500 years old, the Methodist church is only about 300 years old and the Baptist church is only about 400 years old? The Catholic church is about 2,000 years old, which confirms which church is the original. All Christians were Catholics for about 1500 years until some disgruntled men decided to start their own churches. hmmmm….? Makes you think, doesn’t it?

          • Zolicon

            And that contradicts the 4th Commandment which is:

            ” 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

          • George Cameron

            In your world, is every commandment the same about making graven images? The fourth commandment is about honoring your mother and father. Anyway, so you’re saying that God contradicted himself when he told Moses to make a bronze serpent, put it on a staff, and tell the people to look at it in order to be saved from the serpents? Wow! That’s quite an assertion. That means that God made a mistake. I would strongly suggest that you cut back on the reefer, or whatever it is you’re imbibing.

          • Zolicon

            In My world yes there are the same.
            To bad they are not the same in this world.

          • Bill

            I think that Zolicon isn’t particularly bashing Catholics but bashing religious doctrine in general which Jesus warned us not to follow but instead to follow the Bible i.e. Torah commandments. However…if you look at the KJV Old Testement, said by theologians to be the most accurate translation of the original Hebrew writings, and compare the 10 commandments to the Catholic version you will see that the Catholic version eliminates the part about graven images and the Sabath. The Eusibean Catholic translation also has forged in statements, to the Gospel writings, that added 2 non existent Passover feasts to extend Jesus ministry from 70 weeks to 3 1/2 years thus discrediting Daniels 70th week of tribulation as having already occurred and not being a future prophetic revelation event. The Eusibean translation therefore propagated “replacement theology” which birthed anti semitism. Also Luther didn’t write his own Bible…he edited it back to its original state therefore freeing people from religious doctrine as Jesus taught. True….there are many protestant religions that are also guilty of false interpretations….The point being that religious doctrine mis leads many people with false teachings. A true student of Jesus’s teachings needs to search for the original writings and discern whatever translations to reveal the true Spirit of the word and join the Body Of Christ which is non demonational. There are some good sources these days due to discoveries of ancient scrolls. Peace seekers of the truth.

          • Art

            I did not grow up to any Christian denomination but I know there is God. I have attended Christian/Protestant services, Catholic but not Rome connected Catholics, and the Roman Catholics. I wondered and have asked different elders which is the religious denomination I have to joined. They all give me different answers favoring their own denomination. I started reading the bible and then prayed to God, please help me find your church. Where do you want me to go. He told me, not through a man. I believed it and have given me a lot of graces after I obeyed. I am now a devoted Roman Catholic. And no other denomination can convinced me I am wrong. If it is wrong, then it is the Lord’s but I know He is right. All the Catholics here are correct. There are hundreds of evidence this is God’s church. Statues are not god, nor is Mary God, but she is the mother of Jesus. She is daughter and chosen by God- the- Father, Mother of Jesus/God and spouse of the Holy Spirit. She is very special. Protestants do not need to reply for I am no longer lost but found. Times are short, we will all soon see and know the
            Truth.

          • Zolicon

            You got this part right.

            ” Times are short, we will all soon see and know the Truth.”

          • Greg

            Mary and the other Saints are not idols, they’re our fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord who look on now as Scripture informs us (Heb. 12:1-2) and continue to intercede as they are led to. You do believe in intercessory prayer don’t you, Heidi?

            As for all the images, have you not read Ex. 25? Five chapters after God commands no “graven images”, He then commands the creation of graven images – the key word in all of this being IDOLS. We are commanded not to make IDOLS. Statues of Saints are not idols. They are 3D pictures of our brothers and sisters in the Lord that aid us in responding to the commission of Phil. 4:8 to think on whatever is good, holy, true, etc.

            The Saints were certainly all that. Which is why an entire chapter of Hebrews (11) is dedicated to extolling their (the OT Saints) merits.

            Peace be with you.

          • Heidi K.

            Of course Mary and the deciples are brothers and sisters in CHRIST but Catholics pray to them and even worship figurines = idolatry

          • Greg

            No. Sorry to disappoint, but we do not worship wood and plaster any more than Protestants worship photographs of their loved ones.

            We certainly do “pray to” Saints. The original meaning of the word “pray” was simply to ask. And that’s all we’re doing when we ask the saints in Heaven to continue to intercede for us as they look on. (cf. Heb 12:1) The fact that they’re hearing us in some way and responding is illustrated by Rev. 5:8.

          • Greg

            Testing one, two, three…Why is my response not showing up here??

          • JoyInTheLord

            Heidi, why do Protestants ask their brethren to pray for them, sinners as they are just like the rest of us?

            What’s wring with the Catholics asking the saints, holy as they are, to pray for them?

            The Bible says The Lord listens to the prayer of a righteous man. I’d rather ask the saints to pray for me, right?

          • Amy Hall

            Catholics are practicing an old false religion originated from Baal worship made worse through Jezebel. The Roman Catholic Church of the dark ages grew into what it is today, and holds to 10 false doctrines that are practiced to some degree, even today!
            1.) Justification by works–not simply by grace through faith.
            2.) Baptismal regeneration–that a person is saved by baptism.
            3.) Worship of mages. (bowing down to them to pray).
            4.) Celibacy–forbidding priests to marry, putting a distinction between clergy and laity.
            5.) confessionalism–where sins are confessed to a priest who then declares absolution of those sins.
            6.) Purgatory–A place of confinement where there is neither Heaven or Hell, a place of refining before gong into heaven, and so sanctification is not complete at death.
            7.) Transubstantiation–the concept of the continual and perpetual sacrifice of Jesus. (When the Priest consecrates the wafer and the cup they are said to become the real body and blood of Jesus, and so Jesus is re-sacrificed over and over. The cup was only for the clergy. (Which completed the work of the Nicolaitans), that of separating the members from the clergy, putting them above the regular people, allowing them to “rule” over people in their personal lives. The excuse? The cup of “blood” was not given to the people for fear they might spill it.
            8.) Indulgences: Through the giving of money, a person’s time in purgatory could be reduced.
            9.) Penance–the act of torment to one’s body is used in order to reduce time in purgatory.
            10.) Mariolatry–The worship of the virgin Mary, her elevation as the mother of God, and the declaration of her deity.

            None of these practices are written in the original Hebrew scriptures, NONE. It is talked about only in Revelation 2:18-29 in Jesus address to the church of Thyatira, which means “continual and perpetual sacrifice”. There is, however plenty of evidence for these practices in old world Babylon! The truth about the Roman Catholic church is no “mystery” because the scriptures reveal to us who this counterfeit one world church will be, “Mystery Babylon”, “Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth”.

          • Mitchell Joseph

            “Man-made false religion?” Do you even realize that Christianity was purely Catholicism from its creation until the Great Schism in the 11th century led to Eastern Orthodox Christianity? Protestantism wasn’t even a religion until Martin Luther in the 16th century. Read a book; educate yourself before you make stupid remarks like this.

          • bamared2222

            You need to learn something. It is man made. Constantine was preminent in establishing the RCC, bringing in all kinds of practices, plus declaring everyone Christians. Why the heck do you think Luther broke away??????????? Because it was a false religion and in error!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Mitchell Joseph

            No, I don’t need to learn anything, but thanks for playing. Protestants calling any other religion false or man-made, while abhorring others for believing differently than they is not only hypocritical, but hilarious. Every Protestant religion is man-made. Every Protestant religion could have hateful people saying it is false and in error because none of them existed prior to the Reformation. If you want to believe the same thing as Martin Luther, John Calvin, or anyone else, cool. I respect that, even if I don’t believe that myself. Claiming Catholicism is a false religion and making spiteful comments because I don’t believe what you do doesn’t make your religion “right” and mine “wrong,” nor does it make you a better Christian. In fact, anti-Catholic crusading is pretty UnChristian. So is attacking anyone based on their religion, color of their skin, sexual preference, etc. The Bible says “Love your neighbor as yourself.” It doesn’t say “Love your Protestant neighbor,” “Love your white neighbor,” or “Love your straight neighbor.” People who claim to be proud Christians and spit hate at those who aren’t like them are just silly.

          • bamared2222

            Sorry, but you are deceived. Enough said.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Mitchell Joseph

            Haha, congratulations on that “back-to-the-wall”, well thought-out retort. Let me know when you want to bring facts to the table rather than scorning opinion and want to discuss things like a civil Christian rather than as a misguided, hate-filled person. Happy holidays, man.

          • bamared2222

            The laugh is on you, you don’t even know me. Bye sucker.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Mitchell Joseph

            How does not knowing you make the laugh on me exactly? Bye, bud! Merry Christmas!

          • fleger9minus1

            Not enough said. Not nearly enough. Luther was a Catholic priest. Instead of multiple exclamation points and question marks, the use of facts may serve your arguments better. After all, truth is the goal because God is Truth.

          • bamared2222

            Enough said, drop it fool.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            What’s the matter little boy? Can’t handle getting your half moons handed to you?

          • bamared2222

            Lol, you are a joke. You just don’t realize when you have been busted, moron. Get lost, you are tiresome.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            Aww! The widdle boy is getting flustered! Go find your mommy and cry on her lap widdle baby!

          • JohnnyVoxx

            Mattew 5:21-22: “…[W]hoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” Words of our Lord and Savior, founder of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, Jesus Christ. Fortunately for you “bamared2222”, now that you have gone on record publicly with an utterance that according to Christ makes you liable for hell, you can become Catholic, and avail yourself of the ordinary means for remission of your sins, the Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession, as established by Christ Jesus in John 20:19-23: To the Apostles: “Whosever sins YOU forgive, will be forgiven them; Whosever sins YOU retain, will be retained.” So find yourself someone with apostolic authority to forgive your sins (a Catholic Bishop or priest), and then you can be admitted to the Sacrament of Holy Communion (assuming you are Baptized as well, and thus “born again” the Bible way), because without eating the body and drinking the blood of Jesus, you. have. no. life. in. you. John 6:53-54. I could go on, but I wanted to alert you you have committed a sin which Christ said makes you liable for hell. I would begin by apologizing to your brother “fleger9minus1” and continue by becoming a disciple of Christ in his Church. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

          • bamared2222

            Yes, becoming a Catholic is exactly what I need to do! LOL. First of all, priests, bishops, the Pope have no authority to forgive sins in the first place. Yes, they can counsel with someone about an issue and pray with them, but forgive sins?? Not so. Jesus Christ is the ONLY advocate for sinners and we do not need anyone else as a go-between. Yes, I know the Catholic Church teaches that, but that is just one of many false teachings. The Bible way of being born again is in the spirit as John relates of Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus. Then one is to be baptized, that is the correct order. Does the Catholic Church still practice infant baptism? Where is that taught in scripture? NOWHERE! I could go on and on too because there are so many extra-scriptural practices (rituals) in the “church” that have been refuted over the ages. There is no point in carrying on a conversation with you would trust the church more than what Christ says in the scriptures. You are bought and sold on your “religion,” so enjoy it because in the end, you might find that religion is ALL you have to depend on.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Johnny

            And I can go on and on where there are many scriptural references that point to the validity of Catholicism. You jerks say that the Catholic Church is Babylon from Revelation which is ambiguous and probably it referenced to Rome before its conversion, but for that matter the book of Revelation is explicit where Christ calls Jews “a synagogue of Satan for their disbelief in him” and in the gospels where he says to them the father from where you come from is the devil because of their rejection of him. How come you idiots don’t quote that, because you’re afraid of knocking Jews or Christ hating and Christian killing Muslims who are the Anti-Christs and were established by the devil to be a thorn on the Christians side after Christ came to earth, you idiots.

          • JohnnyVoxx

            Your comments, their tone, and of course their content, do not reveal the spirit of Christ in them. As one of the great Protestant to Catholic converts, Blessed John Henry Newman once said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a protestant.” I assure you his intellect dwarfted yours, “bamared2222”, but of course your intellect is your only guide. You do not have true “faith” but only a collection of opinions.

          • bamared2222

            I am sure that catholics are the only ones who know the truth. You may say that Newman dwarfs my intelligence, but I doubt you would dwarf mine. By the way, I am born again, have been baptized and take communion regularly in my church. I know who I am in Christ and am looking forward to spending eternity with him. What collection of opinions you are talking about, I do not know unless you are speaking of my scripture quotations. If you consider those “opinions,” then you are in bad shape. My intellect is keen, but I would never trust it alone in spiritual guidance. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides us in all truth. Have a good life.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • prifunk2002

            so you never rec’d the Gift of the Holy Ghost hunh? to guide into all the TRUTH. GOD says

            via HIS APOSTLES:

            Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

            Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

            Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

            hope this wasnt you… it appears to me that you were not a good bible student in the protestant world much less a disciple of JESUS.

            2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

            stay with JESUS Christ He will never lead you astray.. trust only HIM.

          • JohnnyVoxx

            The Holy Ghost was present at my baptism, which is how I am “born again.” The Holy Ghost was present at every Holy Communion I have received, and was present at the birth of the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church on Pentecost, and guided Her ever since, even out of error. You do not have the Holy Ghost, but simply the angry spirit of man. You are spiritually dead and your attacks on the true faith prove it. You react to all holy things like a possessed fiend. You need an exorcism and the sacraments of the Church, which would quiet your demonically inhabited spirit considerably. You are riven with the ranting spirit of Satan who hates Holy Mother Church and all of Her children above all else. Away with you.

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            No sonny, you are deceived, and you will know soon enough. Prophecies say that after the great chastisement we are leading up to, all Protest ants will return to the Catholic Church. Read the “Tragedy of the Reformation,” by Bob and Penny Lord.

          • bamared2222

            The prophecy you are reading is fallacious then. Try reading what the Bible teaches, NOT WHAT SOME COUPLE HAS PUBLISHED. I have no idea what the “Great Chastisement” is you are hawking and I have certainly never seen in talked about in scripture, so I am assuming it is extra-scriptural. You are just a bigot and Protestant-hater and very uninformed of scripture. The church is NOT just the Catholic Church but all “born again, baptized believers who are bought by the blood and bound by the Bible.” Take your exclusivist view and do what ever you want with it but don’t preach to me about it. Oh, by the way, thanks for all that Catholic LOVE….LOL
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            No bamared2222, that’s a tired old fundamentalist Christian lie. It’s the original Christianity, and they’ve got apostolic succession to prove it. Don’t be sucked in by hate-based fundies.

          • bamared2222

            Not hardly. Facts don’t mean a thing to you obviously. You are deceived. When you can show me how all the practices, rituals, superstitions and paganism fit into scripture, then I will listen; otherwise, I trust scripture over the RCC.
            This is a response I sent to another angry individual who tried to defend “the church.” Reading from the catechism, it does not line up with scripture. The catechism has been written by the church, so why wouldn’t it be biased?? Why don’t you try READING THE SCRIPTURE AND DISCERNING TRUTH FOR YOURSELF rather than let the church dictate whatever you believe? The Holy Spirit can help you discern truth, if you possess Him. This lady was right and her information was taken from historically accurate material. I have studied the history of the church and seen the vast amount of corruption and perversion that has been present to this very day. The priests and the Pope are no different than other men, the all have a sinful nature like me and you.
            Tell me what you believe about Mary, infant baptism, confirmation and some of your sacraments and other “doctrines” and I will be able to discern where you are spiritually. This is from your own catechism: “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.”55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
            The Holy Spirit is our teacher, not the “Mother” Church. Mother of our new birth????There is absolutely no indication anywhere in scripture of this terminology. We did not receive faith through any church, but through grace by Christ alone. The church is the vehicle of fellowship with believers to share salvation to all.
            When I read this portion of the catechism, I was floored. Whether that is the RCC belief I don’t know, but it is in the catechism. The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
            The Bible declares that “there is NONE righteous, no not one. If Mary is without sin, she has to be co-equal with God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. The trinity is expressed in numerous places in Genesis, Deuteronomy, etc., but Mary is not mentioned. She is not GOD, that would be heresy!! She was especially chosen and a righteous person, as was other saints, but she was not without sin. Nowhere in scripture is that stated, implied or expressed.
            This is astounding! 499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.”155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.156 500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus”, are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary”.158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159
            I can hardly comment on this passage above. How in the world can the church determine that Mary was a perpetual virgin??? Not accepting the fact she had other children is ridiculous. Joseph did not have another wife or mistress.
            Although some of the catechism is true and reliable, these are just three examples why I could never trust that teaching because it is in ERROR. These portions, laid against the scripture, almost catch my breath they are so non-scriptural. I don’t receive truth from a preacher or a church, rather from the word of God interpreted by the Holy Spirit.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            OK, first of all, it’s really funny for you to be telling me to read scripture and discern truth for myself, when you’re doing the exact same thing by listening to a bunch of fundie twits who know absolutely nothing about Christianity. As much as you want to pretend your own church doesn’t have a human leader like the pope, you know very well that he does.

            Authority in the Catholic church is from the Bible, church teachings, and sacred traditions. You have thrown out two of those things to be Bible-only, and you did so on your own authority. I’d like to know why. The Bible is just as man made as the others.

            Catholics pray to Mary, or more accurately, ask Mary to pray for them. They don’t turn to her for salvation. You’ve been misled.

          • bamared2222

            Who wrote the scripture? Do you know? It is not man-made, that is ridiculous because then it would be flawed. Try reading II Peter 2:19-21 and maybe you will get a revelation. If you think the Bible is man-made, you have believed the first and greatest LIE: “Yeah, hath God said?” This was spoken by the great deceiver Lucifer.
            We are told that there is only one person to pray to and that is Jesus Christ the righteous who is our intercessor to the Father. NOT MARY. Nowhere in scripture are Christians told to pray to Mary.
            Sorry, but when I listen to others, I am told to match what they say against the truth of scripture; otherwise how would we know the truth? We have a human leader who also has a sinful nature, but they don’t claim to be infallible. LOL

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Human beings wrote it, unless you’re suggesting it fell from the sky one day in a leather-bound KJV edition. If you’re telling me God wrote it, please explain how this impossible physical action took place.

            “We are told that there is only one person to pray to and that is Jesus Christ the righteous who is our intercessor to the Father.”

            And WE DO. When we speak to Mary, the prayer isn’t TO Mary, we ask Mary to pray to Jesus Christ ON OUR BEHALF. Which is absolutely no different than asking a friend of family member to pray for you. Because we don’t believe Mary to be dead, we believe her to be alive in heaven with the saints and having a favored position with Christ.

            Seriously, this one is old as the hills, and you MUST have heard the same thing from many Catholics over the years, why do you assume they are lying to you?

          • bamared2222

            Obviously, you did not read the scripture from II Peter 2:19-20. You are avoiding the issue. The Holy Spirit was the author of scripture and given to man to pen onto paper. That’s how it was done! Do you think fallible, sinful man could come up with ultimate truth by himself? I think not, but he was used just like Christians are used today, by the Holy Spirit. Remember Mother Teresa? I think she was used of God for decades and I honor her for that.
            If you ask Mary to pray to Jesus then SHE IS YOUR INTERCESSOR. What do you think an intercessor is, for goodness sake? That is laughable. I believe Mary is alive as are all saints. By the way, who are the saints? The Bible does not indicate anybody has a favored position in heaven, not even Mary. Sorry, but it just ain’t so. Even though the saints will be given up to five crowns, they will still all cast them down at Jesus’ feet in the end. We all have different gifts and responsibilities, but there is not difference in us. “God is no respecter of persons.”
            Even Peter was no greater than any other apostle of man as he himself says when he meets Cornelius in Acts 10:
            24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends. 25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. 26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
            27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? 30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. 33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
            There is no point in continuing this discussion. You are dead set in your Catholicism. All I can hope is that you have had the born again experience as spoken by Jesus in John 3.
            Have a nice Christmas.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            if the point you are making is that scripture is perfect because it’s God-breathed, tell me why it is we have so many translations of the bible? Why could the church teachings and traditions I mention not also be God-breathed? What makes one better than the other? These are the questions I think you need to be asking yourself.

            Asking Mary to pray for you is no different than asking your friends or family to pray for you. Do you do that? Is that not also intercessory? And if church teachings indicate you may ask her to pray for you, what about that? You’re a sola scriptura Christian, clearly, and I am not, so it’s pointless for you to keep asking me where in the Bible it says this or that. Just because you choose to ignore church teachings and traditions doesn’t mean everyone has to. You seem to be insisting everyone be the same kind of Christian you are otherwise they aren’t a Christian at all, which is highly arrogant.

            I think I indicated earlier I’m not a Catholic. But the point isn’t what I am, the point is you’re trashing your fellow Christians for things you don’t appropriately understand. If you want to ask about Catholicism, go to a Catholic, don’t get your information from a fundamentalist.

          • bamared2222

            I was once wisely told, it was pointless trying to debate with a fool. Good day.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            It isn’t that complicated. You tried to sell me a pile of hate and lies and bigotry, and I wasn’t buying. End of story.

          • Garbanzo Bean

            And yet, the Lord said “but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” KJV Mt 5:22

          • bamared2222

            Better study the meaning and background of that scripture a bit more Bozo Garbanzo
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Garbanzo Bean

            What, you mean consult someone or something other than Scripture?

          • bamared2222

            I didn’t even imply that; of course, scripture. Look at the language, meaning and context. You obviously do not understand explication of scripture. Good night, you are just a contentious moron.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Garbanzo Bean

            So I should study the meaning and background of that scripture, but not read anything except scripture, and not consult with anyone else about it? Is that what you mean?

          • Daniela

            Not all English translations are faithful to the original text! Rick Warren knows that and I suppose that’s the reason he’s using poor Bible translation. Some Bible translation he is using I never heard of it before. And there is a warning from Jesus for that: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

            And yes, you guess right Catholic Church adds unto these things!!!! Jehovah’s Witnesses have their own bible translation called “New World Translation” – Mormons – The Book of Mormon. And you ask Why? Here is why: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

            And, no – a Christian does not inquire of the dead on behalf of the living!! (Isaiah 8:19) While it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. Hebrews 3:15. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

            Jesus said “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! Mark 7:6-7

            Jesus also said Ye shall know them by their fruits. Matthew 7:16

            Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23

            Jesus said: Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17

            God Word’s is Truth and The Sword of the Gospel – Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division. Luke 12:51

            This is Jesus speaking!!! And if you love Him, you will love your fellow Christian and your neighbor like yourself for Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:11-12.

          • guesto3

            Apparently you don’t like the OT as well as Revelation….too inconvenient for you personally. It is better to take the whole thing rather than personal selections. God was/is bigger than that….and there was also soooo much more, according to the evangelist, that could not even be contained in what got actually written down. And that is why we were given the Spirit to continue to guide us….other than the limited choices of commenters to prove a little point of personal desires.

          • bamared2222

            Obviously, you don’t know me well, because I love the OT. I have taught many books in the OT and I am very well acquainted with it, some 25-30 years now. I also have a degree in Biblical Studies along with my other degrees. I am always one to take “all the counsel of God” in consideration when studying scripture. As Paul says, “ALL scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished.”
            The Holy Spirit is to be our guide. As I indicated, He was the author of scripture and the one who guides us in all truth. If you don’t understand that, then you will be of “all men, most miserable.”
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • JoyInTheLord

            OK, how did the Holy Spirit write the Bible?

          • bamared2222

            The literal interpretation is that scripture was “God-breathed” by the Holy Spirit. Also check out this reference in I Timothy:
            2 Timothy 3:16-17King James Version (KJV)
            16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. It is not that difficult if you are open to God and read His word.

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • JoyInTheLord

            So, if the Holy Spirit ‘God-breathed’ the Bible, who took the pen and wrote it?

          • bamared2222

            Read II Peter 2:19-21. God breathed His word unto the writers and they recorded it. Why is that so hard?? You want to say it was man who wrote the scriptures; rather it was God who conceived the words and spoke to man. I suppose he could have given scripture to the writers as He did to Moses, but God does things His way. When you question God’s ability to handle things His way, it raises questions that lead one to believe that you don’t trust God.
            If we did not have scripture to instruct us, how would we know what He expected of us? How would we know of his plan of salvation? How would we know we are sinners? God gave the scripture for our benefit and to learn of Him. If you say only the RCC has the truth or receives the truth, then you are depending on man FOR SURE, and we know how some of these men are fallible and corrupt like other men.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • ort

            Why? “There is only ONE intercessor between God and man–THE MAN CHRIST JESUS.”
            Tell me scripture is wrong.

          • Garbanzo Bean

            Every single word in scripture was originally written by a human being. Every single copy of those scriptures was copied by a human being. Does that confuse you?

          • bamared2222

            I am not confused in the least because I understand what you do not understand. It was physically written by a human being and copied by a human being but the Holy Spirit, whom obviously you do not know, inspired the words. The Greek terminology in scripture of the word inspiration actually says scripture was “God breathed” to the writers. God breathed the words to the writers and each one scribed it in their own style. The whole matter comes down to the fact that you simple reject authority of scripture, that’s all, like Catholics do. They put the “Church” and “tradition” above the scriptures. God does not act contrary to His word. Sorry, can’t help you any further. Have a nice Christmas.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Kristina

            1 Timothy 3:15
            But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

          • Garbanzo Bean

            So the depth of your understanding of scriptural inspiration is that “God breathed”. You are a stellar exemplification of Dunning-Kruger. Thanks for the admission that you cant help any further, truth is you have been no help.
            You one of those who rake through the scriptures taking the blessings to yourself and heaping the curses on your neighbor.

          • Peter

            It is best to interpret scripture with scripture. Church traditions that conflict with scripture should be rejected. Sound doctrine can only be built upon the Word of God, not church tradition. There is no perfect church, because God has chosen to build His church with imperfect people. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

            However, if your church’s tradition makes the commandments of God of no effect, you probably should consider finding a church were the Word of God is taught. Commentaries and church doctrine can be helpful, but only if they are bible based. Our Lord told us that there would be wolves in sheep clothing and there were many around even back when the apostles were alive, spreading false doctrines. Our Lord pointed out the danger of transgressing the commandment of God because of our traditions. Search the scriptures (God’s word) daily to see if these things are true. If God’s word confirms your traditions, then it is sound, If not, get rid of the tradition.

            God’s word is the final authority. Use a bible translation that is as true to the original text as possible and if necessary reference the original Hebrew or Greek meaning for further clarification. Avoid paraphrased bibles, since they are using their own words to restate what they think God was saying. We want to know what God is saying and not what man thinks He is saying. When trying to correct a brother or sister, remember to do it in love. The tongue is hard to tame, but with God all things are possible. I believe there will be Christians in Heaven from many different denominations and non-denominational churches, as long as they believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ, repented of their sins and have been born again into the family of God. Salvation is on an individual basis, and not based on your denomination or church membership. God bless you all.

            Matthew 15:2-6 (NKJV)
            2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
            3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you
            also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
            4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to
            death.’
            5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever
            profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”–
            6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have
            made the commandment of God of no effect by your
            tradition.

            Matthew 5:17-19 (NKJV)
            17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the
            Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
            18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
            19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called
            least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

          • Garbanzo Bean

            Thanks Peter for that irrelevant copy-and-paste. But more to the point and above all, let’s not forget that the phrase “word of God” in the Bible never ever refers to the Bible, and to use the phrase in that way is idolatrous.

            http://www.growthingod.org.uk/Scripture-and-Word.HTM

          • ort

            Ahh. Your Freudian slip is showing. “Catholics PRAY TO MARY”. Yes, we know.

          • ort

            Don’t forget they call her the Queen of Heaven. Read in Jeremiah where the Jews were worshipping a goddess called the Queen of Heaven. Pagan to the core.

          • guesto3

            If anything is “man made” it’s the “new one each day” formed various “churches of what’s happening now” by the millions, according to what pleases them and their particular choice of pastors at the moment. Don’t like what he preaches any more…simply fire him/her. And that “man made” change to scripture itself began with Luther.

          • bamared2222

            It is obvious that you are hard core Catholic and a Luther hater and it is useless to talk to someone so close minded. Your Catholicism blinds you and your faith in the “church” will not alone get you to Heaven. There is only one way to get to heaven and it ain’t through the church. Jesus told us how it is done – to be born again. He said “I am the way, the truth and the life and no man can come to the Father, except through me.” John 14:6.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • David Ciavarella

            Martin Luther repented of his sins and regretted at the end of his life having split the Church. His mother, as a sustained Catholic prayed for her son to realize the imprudence of his ways. In the end it was too late to stop the protest that he had started.

          • bamared2222

            All I can say is I am grateful for the Protestant movement. I know I am saved and safe in the hand of God and will be in heaven at my death or in the rapture, which is first!
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • David Ciavarella

            Hate to disappoint but there will be no rapture. That story is a fundamentalist interpretation of a single bible verse expanded to more false interpretation. I would hope to be welcomed into heaven someday after a long cleansing through purgatory but none of us are to be so bold as to guarantee our salvation as certain. We must continually be vigilant and Satan is always at work to attempt a pillage of our souls. Jesus died and rose for all our salvation but we still decide to accept or deny Gods laws.

          • bamared2222

            Sorry to disappoint you, but there is a catching away of believers and it is spoken of in more than ONE verse. It was written as a comfort to believers which apparently you are not one. There is also no such doctrine as purgatory in scripture and a concept that is completely foolish and baseless. And despite RCC teaching, you can know that you are saved and going to heaven. There is ample scripture to back that up.
            Fundamentalist belief? Fundamentally scriptural. “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” I John 5:13
            “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” II Corinthians 2:9
            If you don’t believe you can be saved and be certain, then YOU have to do something to make it happen and that ain’t scriptural or POSSIBLE! Christ did it for us, that is what grace is, receiving something we don’t deserve when we trust Him. If we decide to accept Him and give our hearts over to Him, he says we are saved and kept in the hand of the Father and NOBODY can touch our soul. You are just repeating old RCC dogma without basis. Look at the Bible, that is the source of all truth.

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • David Ciavarella

            The bible along with Sacred Tradition and ecclesiastical authority are the source of all truth. Evidence again that the bible alone or solo scriptural has lead to not truth but mass confusion and division without proper authoritative defining which Jesus left to Peter and the unbroken line of popes since then. Tens of thousands of differing interpretations as is now without. Purgatory is in scripture- “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.

            Yes Jesus is the source of all our salvation but yet you ignore scripture here-James 2:14-26New King James Version (NKJV)

            Faith Without Works Is Dead
            14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

            18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works.

            How would a protestant like yourself claim to explain away incorruptible saints such that many are hundreds of years dead but with no scientific explanation are physically and miraculously as the day they died.

            Seen the evidence of Our Lady of Guadalupe over 500 years old that should have decayed 450 years ago and science has no explanation of the color on it’s surface or the micro reflected image in the Virgin’s pupils?

            Look at the evidence of the many Eucharistic miracles unexplained by science and try to ignore the miraculous surroundings.

            Science, technology, and the information age make it possible more then ever to research and find the answers of objective truth. Read the witness of ex-protestant pastor Scott Hahn. If after considering the Truth you still choose to sit in a state of ignorance then you are left to your own deception and stubbornness. That may sustain you here for awhile but I believe that by Gods grace we are all to see truth in the near future.

          • Johnny

            Say that to Muslims instead. You’d probably be kissing their rear end instead, you jerk. Or for that matter Christ says in the book of Revelation that the Jews are a synagogue of Satan and in the gospels he says to them “the father from where you come from is the devil” because of their disbelief in him. So does that mean we should be justified in being anti-Semetic?

          • bamared2222

            I am not anti-Semetic but I am anti-Muslim. I have already addressed the references you make. You need to study the background of both of those areas of scripture and you will discover that it means almost exactly the opposite of what you have posited…LOL
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            Luther broke away because he didn’t believe Jesus knew what he was doing when he founded his church upon the rock of Peter.”Thou (singular) art Peter, the rock and upon this rock I will build my church, to thee (singular) I will give the Keys to the Kingdom, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.” If Jesus is God, he knew what he was doing though men within the church have fallen short, as they did from the very beginning, look at the 12, it does not negate the mission Jesus entrusted to His Church. Read the tragedy of the Reformation by Bob and Penny Lord. Luther was calling for a priest on his deathbed. He had an affair with a nun, he could not live out his vow of celibacy. He took seven books out of the canon of the Bible and added the word alone to the Scriptures that say faith is all you need.

          • bamared2222

            That passage is one of the few scriptures Catholics love to quote (mostly because they don’t trust the Bible as authority, rather the Pope. I absolutely remember a time where I lived that Catholics were not even allowed to read the Bible, but only listen to a priest or other official. No wonder so many were ignorant of the truth, being spoonfed by teachers and religious officials! God gave his Holy Spirit to give us understanding. I love to hear that because it is so misinterpreted from the original Greek by the Catholic Church. Jesus is the ROCK of the church, not Peter. It all has to do with the 2 words referring to rock, but that is dissertation for another time. Even if it was true about Luther’s fornication, he certainly hasn’t been the only priest or Pope that has committed that sin!!!!!! LOL. Through the Dark Ages (mostly written for the abominable and corrupt dealings of the RCC), many of the popes were fornicators, some even having STDs!! The following passage, along with several other references in scripture, CLEARLY indicate a person is saved by grace through faith and even that faith is a gift of God. Religion wants to add “things” that we can do for salvation. But things or works should be the result of our salvation and NOT the means of it. Teaching that man can do something or needs to do something to be saved is BOGUS teaching. BTW, as far as I remember from my undergrad course in History of the Christian Church, Paul was considered by the RCC to be reliable in the scripture that he recorded here:
            8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
            10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            I first want to address that you heard Catholics weren’t allowed to read the Bible, that is absolutely false. At every Mass there are two readings from the New Testament and one from the Old Testament. In 1 Tim 2:15, it says that he Church is the pillar and stronghold of the truth, not the bible. There was no bible the first four hundred years. It was the Catholic Church through the guardianship of the Holy Spirit which decided which books would make up the Bible, which Martin Luther took seven books out of during his protestant revolt (reformation). You talk about the original Greek referring to Jesus when he told Peter he would found his church upon him, it was not Greek that Jesus spoke, but Aramaic and is exactly what Jesus was saying in his own language. You quote bible verses on faith alone when their are countless ones that say that faith without works is dead. That verse is in the book of James, another book Luther tried to have removed but failed. Jesus entrusted the Holy Spirit to His church he founded on Peter to guide it into all truth because there are so many tricky passages in Scripture even those that contradict one another. Mt. 5:16 “Just so, your light must shine before others that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly father.” good deeds are the works you do for Christ’s sake. For more bible verses on works and faith http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm. I find it interesting that you LOL at all those within the church that have fallen short of their calling. but Jesus did choose 12 that all but one fell away in some way. Luther you hold up as such a good example, when he had many flaws himself. Even though there are sinners within Christ Catholic Church does not negate the spiritual mission Jesus entrusted to her.

          • bamared2222

            I am sorry, but I do know about Catholics because I had numerous friends in the church when I grew up as well as close family members. That was 50 years ago and they did not read scripture themselves, only read to them by the priest which apparently is still practiced. Most would never touch the Bible at home and only bring it to church to listen to the reading. I had catholic friends galore and they knew nothing about the Bible unless the priest told them.
            Your reference to I Timothy 2:15 (?) “Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.” You apparently have the wrong reference. Maybe II Timothy 3:17-18? ” 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God (Christians) may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” I do not see your proposition that the church is the stronghold of faith instead of the Bible. So I guess all the writers of the scripture were not inspired by the Holy Spirit and they were all incorrect. Only the RCC knows the truth, is that what you are saying?
            Faith is what saves us and brings us into relationship. We can do all the works in the world and never be saved, only by faith through the grace of God. Works are important AFTER we are saved to illustrate the change in our lives. We are definitely to exhibit good works as evidence of God’s spirit within us. There is no contradiction here. They work together, but only when a person is saved. If you are depending on works alone to get you to heaven, or the sacraments, you will never make it. And by the way, contrary to the belief system of most catholics, you can know you are saved and going to heaven: “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (I John 5:13)
            I understand completely that Jesus spoke Aramaic, but the meaning is still there as I explained – JESUS is the ROCK of the Church. You just want to ignore scripture and it has no authority for you, plain and simple. When you make the statement: “there are so many tricky passages in Scripture even those that contradict one another,” you are standing on very shaky ground. You are putting all your faith in the church and ignoring God’s word. If you cannot deal with scripture then there is no purpose of further discussion because you are woefully ignorant. All you can do is spew out RCC dogma.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            I edited what I said to you, I transposed the numbers it is 1 Tim 3:15, “But I tarry long that thou may know how to behave in the house of God, which is the Church, of the living God, the Pillar and ground of the truth.” The bible says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth, nowhere does the Bible say that the Bible is the pillar and ground of the truth. Jesus left the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth, John 16. Faith without works is dead, says so in James 2:14-26 says faith without works is dead. What you have been told by Catholics, are probably so called fallen away catholics who want to find fault with the church because of birth control. If you read your bible then you would know that Onan was slain by God for spilling his seed. The holy spirit would never ok artificial birth control. You do not go by Scripture if you ignore in Luke where it says, “all generations shall call be blessed.” you do not call the New Eve blessed if you are a protest ant. You and your kind skip over so many verses to form your own doctrines. Only the Catholic Church has the authority to interprete scripture because there are bible verses that do contradict, you would know this if you read the whole bible. 😉

          • bamared2222

            You obviously do not even know what the church is. It is not a brick and mortar building. It is not the hierarchy of RCC. It is the body of Christ! The church is the body of baptized believers, bought by the blood and bound by the Bible!
            Yes, God’s word is truth. (John 17:17). Psalm 119 says it over and over because the whole Psalm is about the word of God. You are just an ignorant dogmatist. You are going from pillar to post and it is even hard to follow what you are saying. Besides, you grasp at straws to support your beliefs. There is no point in even discussing with you because it is obvious you are so angry that you can’t even express yourself with any fluidity. Good day.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Maureen

            You do not debate like a Christian, you use accusing and uncharitable words.1Tim3:15, the Bible says the Church is the pillar and ground of the church. History and the Bible prove that it was the Catholic Church that Jesus founded. If he is God, he does not make mistakes, yet men within the Church do from time to time and did from the very start. You need to be more charitable in your defense of your faith, no one can take a Christian seriously if he does not put on Christ.

          • bamared2222

            Your argument goes nowhere because you cherry pick a scripture and not look at the whole counsel of God. You can make any claim you want about the RCC, but that is totally dogmatic. I already gave you the definition of the church and you ignore it because you are brainwashed in RCC history. Many churches were established by Paul and other apostles; Peter was an apostle of Jesus. Paul was the much greater apostle, even withstanding Peter in doctrine at one point. You can make him the Pope at Rome if you want (and it is even doubtful he was ever there or for any length of time if he was), but that would only make him an ecclesiast.
            14 I am writing these things to you now, even though I hope to be with you soon, 15 so that if I don’t come for a while, you will know what kind of men you should choose as officers for the church of the living God, which contains and holds high the truth of God. (TLB)
            15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (KJV)
            The church is the pillar and ground of the truth. It is the repository of God’s word to be taught and believed. The truth is found in God’s word, the church (NOT JUST THE RCC), embodies that truth of scripture.
            By the way, if you read all of that chapter it speaks of church leaders, bishop and deacon, as married, so how is it that priests aren’t allowed to marry? Paul says he wishes all men to be like himself and be single to serve God, but there is NO PLACE in scripture that demands it. It states very clearly the qualifications for these offices and speaks of family with children. If a man choose celibacy on his own, that is one thing (as Paul says), but for all priests to be celibate, no way. Even look at the model of the Jewish priests who all had families. It also says that leaders are not to be given to wine and Paul also warns to avoid strong drink. I have seen priests DRUNK and my father used to deliver liquor to the parsonage by the CASE! There are so many inconsistencies from scripture, it is ridiculous and I don’t even bother going into Mariology (a cult).
            1 Timothy 3 King James Version (KJV)
            3 “This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”
            There are too many issues here for disagreement and most of scripture just gets in the way of your “beliefs” or “teachings.” God gave scripture to man and gave man the presence of the Holy Spirit for a reason. After Jesus left, he said he would send the Comforter to us to lead us in all truth. He never contradicts his own word. You believe whatever you wish because I saw enough, studied enough and experienced enough of the RCC that I would NEVER be enticed to be a follower.

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • BeWhoYouAre

            Thank you very much Mitchell for setting that straight!

          • ort

            Yeshua and His disciples were JEWISH. There was NO Catholic Church until 300 A.D.
            “Salvation is OF THE JEWS”.
            Why is it you guys think Jesus and the apostles were good Italian Catholic boys?

          • arc ordanza

            After the death of Christ, Christians were the ones who evangelized and spread the gospel. Ignatius of Antioch was the first to refer to them as Catholics. What were they called before?

            Originally Christians weren’t even called Christians. They were called “disciples” (i.e., “students”) of Jesus of Nazareth. Later, in the city of Antioch, they received the name “Christians” (Acts 11:26). This probably happened in the A.D. 30s. This term spread very quickly—probably to the chagrin of those Jewish individuals who did not wish to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah (Christ).

            “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” (John 3:16)

            It was Bishop Ignatius who first used the term “CATHOLIC” to describe the whole Church. These letters connect us to the early Church in the year 107 AD and the unbroken, clear teaching of the Apostles which was given to them directly by Jesus Christ. “And they conversed there in the church a whole year; and they taught a great multitude, so that at Antioch the disciples were first named Christians.” (Acts 11:26)

          • ort

            I have no problem with 107 A.D.
            I DO have a problem with Constantine (300 AD) making “Christianity” the official religion of Rome, but mixing in enough typical pagan roman beliefs to make it palatable to those who worshipped multiple gods.
            The gods became patron saints, Semiramis holding the baby Tammuz became Mary (perpetual virgin–queen of heaven. Read Jeremiah!) holding the infant Jesus.

            Calling the unbiblical “pope” by God Almighty’s Title (Holy Father) is unscriptural.
            The RCC is deeply rooted in paganism. I will never exchange the truth for a lie.

          • Arc Ordanza

            Christianity emerged from Judaism, which itself rejected figurative religious art as being too much like idol worship (see Ex 20:3). But once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire under Constantine in the 4th century CE, it was not long before Roman practices of portraying and honoring the divine (their gods and emperors) would make their way into Christian practices as well.

            Although the saints are portrayed in statues, icons, paintings, and other media, they are not worshipped as God is. Rather, we venerate the saints, meaning that we honor them, give them respect, and show them devotion for what they have accomplished in their lives of faith. John Coleman, SJ sees saints as generally having five characteristics:

            exemplary model
            extraordinary teacher
            worker of wonders or source of benevolent power intercessor
            possessor of a special, revelatory relation to the holy.
            In short, they invite to see and relate to God anew.

            Asking saints to intercede for us is not idol worship because they themselves are not the object of worship. We are asking for their help to make our case before God, just as you might have a friend advocate for you.

          • Arc Ordanza

            Now, If as St. Paul is pointing out; Baptism is the replacement of circumcision, and Baptism is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant rite of circumcision as he says above, then it would seem that according to Scripture; Baptism is necessary!

            Another objection is, that since a child, especially an infant, has not arrived at the age of reason it can not and should not be Baptized. Again, if Baptism is fulfilling the rite of circumcision done on the eighth day then according to Scripture, we can see that the Catholic Church is the “True Bible Church”! One other point needs to be made before we move on: There are some who say that the Catholic Church follows the “traditions of men” or “human traditions” as St. Paul puts it. Are we? Are there only “human traditions” or are there both “good” meaning “Godly” and “bad” meaning “Human” traditions”?

            It would seem according to Mk 16:16, that Christ was instituting a “good” or “Godly tradition”. We see a further explanation of that institution by St. Paul in his letter to the Colossians. St. Paul continues with this line of thought in his 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians 2:15; “Therefore, stand firm, hold fast, to the “traditions” which you were taught by us either by word of mouth or by letter.”

            Again, we see, according to the Bible that the teachings of the Catholic Church are never refuted by Sacred Scripture!

            “It is not often admitted by [some] that nowhere does the Bible actually say baptism is to be restricted to adults. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning.”
            [Their] position on infant baptism is a consequence not of the bible’s strictures, but of the logic of fundamentalism’s notion of salvation. Although the Bible is not as clear on the issue as we might wish, certainly what it says leans toward the Catholic position, which is seconded by early Christian writings and practice.[They] ignore all that because they must preserve their concept of how salvation is obtained. They see salvation as coming not through an infusion of grace, which is the Catholic/Biblical position, but through an acceptance of Jesus as one’s personal Lord and Savior. Since only an adult can be saved this way, they conclude that baptism is wasted on infants and young children – thus their opposition to the Catholic position!

            SIMPLE BIBLICAL EXPLANATION OF BAPTISM:
            From the Scriptures of John 3:5 & Matthew 28:19 all the elements of the New Testament concept of the Sacrament can be derived. Baptism appears as an outward sign of grace,
            consisting of ablution with water and the invocation of the Three Divine Persons; it effects inward grace, namely re-birth, and is ordained for all time by Christ.

            (Romans 4:2-3] (ME) If we read down to v. 9, we will see the real reason that St. Paul brings up this section of Genesis. Paul was arguing against the Jewish idea that because they were “sons of Abraham” they were saved. They believed, and rightly so, that they came into the “Covenant” through “circumcision” [Genesis 17:11]. This is another reason why St. Paul’s Letter to Colossians, where he talks about BAPTISM replacing circumcision is so important! In v. 9 of Romans 4 we see that Paul is showing the Jews that their “father Abraham” was actually “saved” before he was circumcised”! This would have rocked the very foundations of the Hebrew community! He is speaking against the “work” of circumcision here! If we read v. 11, we see that circumcision was a “seal” or a “sign” of the righteousness he had – and the Church teaches that the water & the Holy Oil used at Baptism is an outward “sign” of the righteousness given to us as a free gift by God, and that we are “sealed” to God! In v. 12 we see that Christians are to follow the “example of faith”.

            DEFINITIONS:
            Sanctifying Grace: (CE) According to Scripture, Baptism makes a person a new creation, through a rebirth and communication of the Holy Spirit [2 Peter 1:4]. […] It is lost through
            mortal sin [Romans 8:12] (but restored in the sacrament of Penance [John 20:21]) and can be increased by good works [James 2:24] and the reception of the sacraments [John 6:53].

            THEOLOGICAL VIRTUES: Faith, hope and love. Supernatural gifts enabling man to attain his final destiny.

            MORAL VIRTUES: Prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance. The moral virtues enable us to easily perform good actions inspired by the Holy Spirit.

          • ort

            When Christ cried with a loud voice “it is finished!”, the curtain in front of the Holy of Holies was torn in two. God also never accepted another sacrifice in the temple. The scarlet thread never turned white again. This meant that we didn’t need priests any more, and that we could now come to God directly as His children and ask for what we needed. Whether it was forgiveness, or to praise Him, whatever.

            To say that the saints hear and receive prayer means you are giving them Omnipresence. Only God has that. You think dead humans can hear the constant stream of prayers from 1.5 BILLION catholics?

            I will neither validate, nor bow before paganism.

          • Greg

            If God forbid contact with the dead in ALL forms, as you suggest, why would he have given us a contrary example during the Transfiguration in Matt 17?

            The prohibition is against CONJURING the dead, trying to essentially compel them to become present, not offering a prayer through them to God.

            How is that possible? Well, of course, scripture informs us that “everything is possible with God” and then it goes on to materially illustrate prayer going from the saints on Earth through the saints in Heaven in Rev. 5:8 (and in Rev. 8:3 in reference to angels). So…

            As for not needing priests any more, I’d check with Paul in Hebrews about that. He seems to think that the priesthood is still very relevant. And the Jews were allowed to communicate directly with God anyway. The tearing of the veil in the temple seems to have had more to do with God essentially “forsaking” the building in Jerusalem and beginning to take back the whole Earth as His temple.

            Peace.

          • Greg

            This gentleman made many of the assumptions you did at one time. I would encourage you to hear him out…

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsIoiWO96JI&utm_content=buffer55874&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

          • DPJ

            Exactly, and Protestants cannot even agree on a denomination. The Catholic Church has been just that for 2,000 years. Today, there are several thousand Protestant “denominations”, formed from break offs when some group doesn’t agree with another.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Let’s pray for them that ehy may come home to the One, True, Holy, Catholic Church.

            In obedience to the prayer of CHRiST: “That they may be one, as You, Father and I, are one.”

          • cathy

            hahahah what a stupid reply, the only worship of Baal comes as Islam, the Muslims worship Baal, your ignorant in your reply. Catholics worship no one other than Jesus Christ himself who died on the cross was buried and rose on the third day , he is seated at the right hand of the father.

            ignorance makes you stupid.

            do you understand you are saved by grace not works?

            lets look at your 10 myths shall we.

            1 saved by works? I think not.-.Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
            8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
            9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

            understand what that means – you are saved by the gift of Jesus not via your works.

            2. John the Baptist baptised with water, he even baptised Jesus in the river Jordan, yes a rejuvenation a symbol of forgiveness of sins and coming into christs family

            Mathew 3; 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

            3 a laughable accusation.

            The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. The beauty of statues and icons move us to the contemplation of the Word of God as he is himself or as he works in his saints. And, according to Scripture, as well as the testimony of the centuries, God even uses them at times to impart blessings (e.g., healings) according to his providential plan.

            While it can certainly be understood how a superficial reading of the first commandment could lead one to believe we Catholics are in grave error with regard to our use of statues and icons, the key to a proper understanding of the first commandment is found at the very end of that same commandment, in verse 5 of Exodus 20: “You shall not bow down to them or serve [adore] them.”

            The Lord did not prohibit statues; he prohibited the adoration of them. If God truly meant that we were not to possess any statues at all, then he would later contradict himself. Just five chapters after this commandment in Exodus 20, God commanded Moses to build the ark of the Covenant, which would contain the presence of God and was to be venerated as the holiest place in all of Israel. Here is what God commanded Moses concerning the statues on it:

            And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends (Ex. 25:18–19).

            In Numbers 21:8–9, not only did our Lord order Moses to make another statue in the form of a bronze serpent, he commanded the children of Israel to look to it in order to be healed. The context of the passage is one where Israel had rebelled against God, and a plague of deadly snakes was sent as a just punishment. This statue of a snake had no power of itself—we know from John 3:14 it was merely a type of Christ—but God used this image of a snake as an instrument to effect healing in his people.

            Further, in 1 Kings 6, Solomon built a temple for the glory of God, described as follows:

            In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. . . . He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees, and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. . . . For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood. . . . He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers; he overlaid them with gold (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32).

            King Solomon ordered the construction of multiple images of things both “in heaven above” (angels) and “in the earth beneath” (palm trees and open flowers). And then, after the completion of the temple, God declared he was pleased with its construction (1 Kgs. 9:3). Didn’t God know what King Solomon had done?

            It becomes apparent, given the above evidence, that a strictly literal interpretation of Exodus 20:2–5 is erroneous. Otherwise, we would have to conclude that God prohibits something in Exodus 20 that he commands elsewhere.

            4. it is something they choose to do to devote their life to God

            1 Corinthians 7:1 (KJV)
            Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch

            [aptomai] a woman.

            “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”
            Matthew 19:12, KJV

            “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn . . . But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches . . . Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called . . . Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God . . . But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.”
            1 Corinthians 7:6-9, 17, 20, 24, 32-35, KJV

            5. confession is forgiveness of sin , there is no need to confess to a priest so don’t declare that this is what we must do for no catholic believes this, it is there if we choose to make confession easier , by speaking to another, confession is between you and the lord- this is ignorance of man to judge others

            First, the New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant. Instead, the New Testament teaches that all believers are priests. First Peter 2:5-9 describes believers as a “holy priesthood” and a “royal priesthood.” Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 both describe believers as “a kingdom of priests.” In the Old Covenant, the faithful had to approach God through the priests. The priests were mediators between the people and God. The New Testament teaches that there are to be elders (1 Timothy 3), deacons (1 Timothy 3), bishops (Titus 1:6-9), and pastors (Ephesians 4:11) – so its something that stuck.
            6 purgatory is from the old testament
            7 that’s complete nonsense, Catholics don’t even have this
            8. indulgences where the hell did you dig that crap up from. that’s not catholic
            9 penance is the same as confession its the one thing
            10.mary is real and mentioned through the bible look at my other messages about her.
            utter nonsense from your ignorance

          • brireward

            I have been wondering if the printing press was created by the devil for he knew many would misinterpret the writings. Also protest -ants should remember that the bible is comprised by only 4-5 of the true apostles, the others just went out and taught without writing -which is called “tradition”. =handed down by word of mouth. Paul wrote most of the bible under the names of other apostles. He was the only one that could write and read. Most people didn’t in those days He remember too was a very radical and adamant Jew ( he didn’t even follow the ten commandments – he KILLED christians!) and when he was converted, his demeanor didn’t change, he was then a very radical and adamant christian. Some of the things he said were ridiculous -the head covering for example and the amish and menonites take it for granted and cover their heads all the time. —-except when they are home. I have come to their houses and saw their heads uncovered –and certainly uncover their heads when they go to bed -in the summer!!! I should hope!
            Everyone should read Faith of Our Fathers by Jurgen. It is the writings of the SUCESSORS of the apostles and they tell exactly how they lived and taught in the 1st to the 4th century after the death of Christ. They baptised infants, they took communion , they had mass etc.etc..

          • fleger9minus1

            If much of what you say was actually what the Catholic faith proclaims, I wouldn’t be there. Fortunately, nearly every example you cite is incorrect. Try using a Catholic catechism as a source next time.

          • bamared2222

            What she cited is HISTORICAL FACT, which the church denys. Catechism is simply what the church teaches. Why wouldn’t a Catholic think it was a good source??? LOL

          • fleger9minus1

            Because I believe the catechism to be a reliable source, I recommended that she use it to correct some of the inaccuracies in her post. If you can’t understand what is written, get someone to read and interpret for you.

          • bamared2222

            I really don’t need the sarcastic comment. I am well educated, especially in biblical studies, so I assure you I CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND. Just because I have four degrees does not make me superior, but it also does not make me stupid and I wont be talked down to, understood??
            The catechism has been written by the church, so why wouldn’t it be biased?? Why don’t you try READING THE SCRIPTURE AND DISCERNING TRUTH FOR YOURSELF rather than let the church dictate whatever you believe? The Holy Spirit can help you discern truth, if you possess Him. This lady was right and her information was taken from historically accurate material. I have studied the history of the church and seen the vast amount of corruption and perversion that has been present to this very day. The priests and the Pope are no different than other men, the all have a sinful nature like me and you.
            Tell me what you believe about Mary, infant baptism, confirmation and some of your sacraments and other “doctrines” and I will be able to discern where you are spiritually. This is from your own catechism: “Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.”55 Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
            The Holy Spirit is our teacher, not the “Mother” Church. Mother of our new birth????There is absolutely no indication anywhere in scripture of this terminology. We did not receive faith through any church, but through grace by Christ alone. The church is the vehicle of fellowship with believers to share salvation to all.
            When I read this portion of the catechism, I was floored. Whether that is the RCC belief I don’t know, but it is in the catechism. The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia), and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature”.138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
            The Bible declares that “there is NONE righteous, no not one. If Mary is without sin, she has to be co-equal with God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. The trinity is expressed in numerous places in Genesis, Deuteronomy, etc., but Mary is not mentioned. She is not GOD, that would be heresy!! She was especially chosen and a righteous person, as was other saints, but she was not without sin. Nowhere in scripture is that stated, implied or expressed.
            This is astounding! 499 The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man.154 In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.”155 And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.156 500 Against this doctrine the objection is sometimes raised that the Bible mentions brothers and sisters of Jesus.157 The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, “brothers of Jesus”, are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ, whom St. Matthew significantly calls “the other Mary”.158 They are close relations of Jesus, according to an Old Testament expression.159
            I can hardly comment on this passage above. How in the world can the church determine that Mary was a perpetual virgin??? Not accepting the fact she had other children is ridiculous. Joseph did not have another wife or mistress.
            Although some of the catechism is true and reliable, these are just three examples why I could never trust that teaching because it is in ERROR. These portions, laid against the scripture, almost catch my breath they are so non-scriptural. I don’t receive truth from a preacher or a church, rather from the word of God interpreted by the Holy Spirit.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            You wouldn’t know the first thing about Christ, nor would you have a bible if it weren’t for the Catholic Church who codified it in its councils, beginning in Nicea in the fourth century. And no, Mary’s sinlessness does not make her “Co-equal with God.”

            Adam and Eve were created in sinlessness, as was Lucifer, but Catholics don’t consider them to be God’s equal either. Because something isn’t expressed explicitly in scripture doesn’t mean it is “unbiblical.”

            The Angel’s greeting to Mary as “Full of Grace” would be a strong indicator of her sinlessness. Would you consider a sinner a worthy vessel for the bringing of the savior into the world?

            Her perpetual virginity is also consonant with her unique role in salvation history. Doubts about Christ’s very divinity may have been easier to entertain had there been other children born from Mary’s womb.

            Why, may I ask, was it necessary for our Lord to entrust his mother to John, while He hung from the cross? Weren’t there any of Christ’s “brothers” or “sisters” left to take care of their mom?

            It’s interesting that you “don’t receive truth from a preacher or a church, rather from the word of God interpreted by the Holy Spirit”

            Too bad you weren’t living in the Apostolic ages, when you would not have had the benefit of scripture to guide you, but would by necessity be forced to accept the type of authority that so many find unwelcome in today’s age of conceit.

          • bamared2222

            Your ignorance just flies out all over the place. Answer the question: Is Mary co-equal with God? To say Mary is sinless, but not equal with God, is insane. She was born after the fall of man (and woman), remember???? ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, the Bible declares. After Adam and Eve were created, they sinned and were separated from God. Your point is moot.
            You dare to say Mary never sinned, even as good as she was? What about her parents- were they sinners. How could sinful people then conceive a sinless daughter Mary??????????? David in the Psalms that we were all conceived in sin. She was a vessel whom God used, just like Paul, Peter, etc., who were also sinners SAVED BY GRACE. There are only three persons in the universe who are sinless, and that is it. By the way, do you pray to Mary? Do you do the little superstitious rosary beads thing?? Does the priest still swing a flask of incense around a casket to ward off evil spirits?? I grew up with Catholics in my family and a place where most of the town was Catholic, so I am not ignorant of what they practice; in fact, I have been in the church several times and seen it!!!!
            Your pretext about brothers and sisters of Jesus is hypothetical. Who knows the reason? John was the disciple that Jesus loved, the Bible says. They obviously were close, plus I know of people who entrust decisions, property, family, etc., to someone outside the family for various reasons, so that doesn’t hold water. I believe he had brothers and possibly sisters as scripture says so I don’t have a problem with that at all.
            What I was expressing about preachers or a church is that some can teach error, even unwittingly, so the ultimate authority is in scripture. The Pope is NOT INFALLABLE nor any preacher. I mean, just look at what evil practices took place during the Middle Ages with the Popes’ corruption and perversions.
            The point is, God’s word is always dependable, but man isn’t. Whether they be Catholic or Protestant, we are told in scripture to test them and see their works and not just take what they say as truth. Haven’t you ever seen some of the “religious” charlatans on TV with an emotional appeal for money, money, money???
            We didn’t have scripture before the church? That’s ludicrous. The Old Testament was written down in books and read to the people before Christ. Countless times, Jesus was alluded to as the savior to come. God made it very clear what his plan was in the OT, plus pictures of Christ were given dozens of times throughout the OT. The plan of salvation was also there, so no man has an excuse of being ignorant. Grace was given from the beginning, not just after Jesus came into the world. I think you are just afraid to read the Bible because you might find out some of the things you have been taught are not correct – AT ALL.

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            Even though Catholics believe that the one who future generations will call blessed, (Mary) was uniquely favored by God in her being conceived in a state of grace, we don’t consider this as being co-equal with God. That’s your construct.

            Mary’s parents were sinners, as are we all. What is it with you? Does the idea of a sinless virgin being the mother of our Savior really bother you that much? I think I’ll stick with the age old teaching, thank you.

            As for the incensing of the altar, the Bible and the bread and wine which are used for the miracle of the Eucharist. Far from being used as a way to “ward off evil spirits,” incense is used to offer our prayers to God, as the sweet essence of our prayers, in which we hope that God would regard these prayers as He did regard Abel’s offering.

            You keep telling us that you will continue to put your faith in a book, written by men, that you accept as infallible, yet you disregard the church from whence it came, as unreliable.

            As I stated earlier; for centuries after the death of the last Apostle, all we had was Sacred Tradition to guide us. The bible came to us through the Church councils. Even then, the expense of a hand copied bible and rampant illiteracy among most people would have made the private ownership of a complete bible a pipe dream.

            Do yourself a favor and get a real education.

          • bamared2222

            Sorry fool, I have the education far beyond yours I am sure and you are just showing your butt. I am not wasting another minute carrying on a conversation with a dogmatic fool who believes that his salvation is in the church or tradition. The plain fact is that you are afraid and distrustful of God’s truth and give preeminence to the church and tradition. By the way, the true church is not visible or does not have boundaries set by walls, rather is the whole body of baptized believers, bought by the blood and bound by the Bible! Good day and don’t bother replying because I won’t no matter how many insults you throw. Lol.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            Look at the pathetic little boy leave the kitchen when the heat gets turned up. Dismissed.

          • Warren Little

            You who haughtily refer to your own learning, show no proof of it. Instead you offer insult instead of evidence. Your name calling is the true mark of a coward. Ask Santa for some humility this Christmas.

          • bamared2222

            Maybe you repent for your condescension. Your name fits you very well for a man.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Sheila

            Pride commeth before the fall!

          • bamared2222

            And you just can’t fix stupid either! LOL

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • brireward

            Incense was created by God and instructed Moses to use it.

          • brireward

            You forget God created Mary. He could have made her sinless if He wanted her to be His Ark of the covenant. He can do anything remember and I would surely think He would have wanted her to be something special for His body to grow to be born in the human environment and for her to take care of him to manhood. Remember there were people (Herod) who wanted to kill him.

            PLEASE GOD ENLIGHTEN YOUR “SHEEP”!

          • bamared2222

            Mary was special, but she was also human. The Bible says, ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. ” “None are righteous, no, not one.” Mary was a sinner too. Just like Daniel and Joseph in scripture. Neither one of these men had any sin spoken about them, but they were still sinners – IT IS OUR NATURE from Adam and no human can change their nature, only their heart toward God in faith in His son’s death and resurrection. One point to remember is this: Jesus lived in a poor household, experienced the same things we experience so why would Mary’s body have to have been special? He was just born into a human woman’s body like all of us. It was HE who was special, she was only the vessel, just like many other people in scripture and in life today. God uses common people for special purposes every day.
            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • JoyInTheLord

            Bamared2222, listen.

            You know that holiness and sin cannot mix.

            Jesus, Our Lord, is God, Son of God, is holy. If He is born of Mary, will He allow Himself to be born of a sinful woman?

            Think with your 4 degrees as you so claim.

          • bamared2222

            If you say she has no sin, and never made a mistake, then your thinking is very flawed. Mary was indeed a chosen vessel, a good person, but she was not perfect and without sin.
            What about the people involved all the way through the OT who were in the line of Christ? Do you realize that there were some who murdered? (David). A harlot (Rahab). A liar (Jacob). I could go on and on but the point is in your pretext, how could God allow Christ’s progenitor’s to be sinful people? Was not Mary’s parents sinners? How could she not have sinful flesh if her parents were sinners? If Mary was without sin, did she die? Remember, death was one of the curses of sin. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would have lived forever; but the curse of sin came upon all people through them.
            The scripture clearly says that “ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.” “There are none righteous, no, not ONE!” “ALL we like sheep have gone astray.” This includes you and I, and Mary.
            The Bible is very clear: Read this whole chapter in Romans 5 King James Version (KJV). Interesting that this is the book of Romans, to the Roman Church written by Paul and he speaks about some great doctrines here in this chapter, not just about our sinful condition.
            5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
            5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
            Don’t worry, I don’t trust in my four degrees although they are helpful in many areas, including theology. I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, who purchased by freedom with his own blood and through whom I have been born again and received and filled with the Holy Spirit of truth and wisdom. Although I attend and support a local church, I do not relegate myself to a church or a pastor as authority but unto God and His word of truth.

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • fleger9minus1

            You’ll be talked down to and like it!

          • bamared2222

            Oh, I love it, especially pissing off dogmatic Catholics! LOLOLOL

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Kelly Weblerker

            I think he might like his little buns burned LOLOLOLOL!!

          • David Ciavarella

            Yeah. The pharisees were also experts and “know it alls”. Look where that solid knowledge got them! Proof that intellect and knowledge does not equal truth but may instead be prideful and arrogance.

          • arc ordanza

            No men made religion, “I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:6-12)

            If you depart, “Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.” (Matthew 25:41-46)

            The non-Catholic should not interpreted the scripture (Bible) as their known Faith alone or Sola Scriptura…St Peter stated “Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:20) It means, No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise…. “For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21)

          • bamared2222

            Totally agree. Well put because this is historical truth which many Catholics deny. I don’t think most Catholics realize all that their church teaches; if they do, they also don’t realize the extent of false teaching.

          • Amy Hall

            Yet there is more truth of scriptures to be found today than ever before. Do Catholics just brush it aside when they look upon those sensual pagan deity false god statues all over the Vatican? Zeus, Apollo, Medusa, Osiris, Venus, cupid ? These were the very things that so offend Jehovah. Do you think any of that has changed? Like, is he saying, “Well, that was then, this is now?” Does he consider it to be “art”? Oh, put a leaf in front of it’s exposed parts, and that will make it ok?
            Thyatira–Continual and perpetual sacrifice:
            Revelation 2:18- I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
            Well, I’m done here. God Bless.

          • bamared2222

            Well, I thought you did a great explication of the issues. I get attacked every time I share anything on blogs like this because members of the RCC do not accept documented historical evidence of what has been done and practiced by the church including gross sin and perversions of some of the Popes themselves! The practices, rituals, etc., do not match with scripture and do nothing to lift up Christ. “A form of godliness, but lacking the power thereof….”
            I believe there are saved Catholics but not because of the church but because they have found the truth and trusted the Lord, not the priest or the Pope. I cringe every time someone bows down and kisses his ring!! YUK. I also am disturbed by all the finery of his cloak and the gold and jewels around his neck. Where is humility, service?? I so admired Sister Teresa, but the rest of them enjoy the applause of man. By the way, look what Paul and the other apostles went through! OH well, appreciate all your comments and research. It is all out there, just not understood by most Catholics. Just lambs being led to the slaughter unfortunately.
            Dennis

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Amy Hall

            Tell Rick Warren to put this in his pipe and smoke it. A little reformation for them?

            “And yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God’s Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture, that it be repugnant to another.”
            (39 Articles of Religion. Article XX. OF THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH)

            “But if the church proceed further to make any article of the faith, beside the Scripture, or direct not the form of life according to the same; then it is not the pillar of the truth, nor the church of Christ, but the synagogue of Satan, and the temple of antichrist which both erreth itself, and bringeth into error as many as do follow it.”

            Archbishop Thomas Cranmer
            (Works of Archbishop Cranmer, Parker Society I, p 377)

          • bamared2222

            Whatever denomination or church Rick Warren is from, if he is a false prophet, so be it.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Warren Little

            You don’t get attacked, just corrected.

          • bamared2222

            Oh, I do get attacked numerous times. And no, I am not corrected. I know from whence I speak my friend.
            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • Kelly Weblerker

            He doesn’t just get corrected, he gets SCHOOLED!

          • brireward

            Bringing up some of the “gross” sins of the popes only shows that you are thinking on a static level, not trying to understand the deep meaning of what is true. The popes are humans, and we catholics accept that, we do not hold them up as a god. They are only infallible on matters of faith and morals and Christ put them in that place. He gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and placed him as head of the apostles Peter being the first pope.

          • bamared2222

            Excuse me, but the gross sins of the Popes are historically accurate. Shameful yes, but true. And yes, they are human and fallible. And also fallible when it comes to matters of faith and morals (?). I thought you just said they were morally fallible! So they can tell others what is morally right, even though they may not be? You need to thoroughly explicate the Greek in the passage regarding Peter. It is all in the shades of meaning of the word “rock.” There are two types of rock spoken of there and Peter is not the ROCK, Jesus is the ROCK of the church. He is the one who founded it and the one who is shepard. This is Paul’s letter to the Colossians which speaks directly to the point:
            Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV)
            3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: 7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; 8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
            9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
            18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

            (Speaks of Jesus because he is the head of the church, he is the rock. By the way, God speaks of Christ as the ROCK several times in the OT and NT)
            The Pope is a spiritual leader, but he is NOT infallible even in matters of faith; if he was infallible, why have the doctrines, practices, etc. over the centuries been changed many times?? Watch especially what Pope Francis is doing right now! Many Catholics are very upset about some of his changing views on issues of faith. It should be very disturbing.

            Subject: Re: Comment on Rick Warren’ s Call for Christians to Unite With Catholics, ‘ Holy Father’ Raising Concerns

          • DPJ

            Sorry, but all of those 7 are found in scripture and/or tradition, which is also found in scripture. And finally, Catholics do NOT worship Mary. You did a very good job at outlining typical Anti-Catholic talking points that we’ve all heard for years. It’s actually kinda fun to read…..again.

          • Amy Hall

            Show me the scriptures. AND, not from your Catholic bible, only from the King James. (If you can).

          • brireward

            Read Faith of Our Fathers by Jurgen. It is 3 books which are the writings of the SUCCESSORS of the apostles. They tell exactly what they taught, how they lived etc. These writings are much more clear as to what was handed down by Christ.

          • Greg

            1) James 2:24
            2) 1 Peter 3:21
            3) The Catholic Church worships neither images (nor mages) any more than Protestants worship the photographs of their loved ones they kiss.
            4) Matt 19:10-12
            5) John 20:22-23
            6) 1 Cor. 3:11-15
            7) Transubstantiation does not mean that Jesus is sacrificed over and over, it means that we mystically revisit the one same sacrifice over and over at various points in time. And it was Jesus who said that the bread and wine were his body and blood. Tough for many Protestants to accept, but then it was not easy for many of the Jews of Jesus’ day either – John 6:52-67.
            8) 1 Peter 4:8 (This is assuming, of course, that the money is being given charitably and not to “purchase” the remission of sins. That would be a grave sin per Acts 8:18-20)
            9) The term “penance” refers to any act of self-denial (Luke 9:23) aimed at “crucifying the flesh” (Rom 8:13), whereby we become more intimately united with the Spirit of the Lord. (Which, yes, it follows, would reduce the time spent in Purgatory since the whole idea behind Purgatory is the purification of one’s soul.)
            10) I’m going to have to call bigotry what it is, unless and until you can cite for us any authoritative document from the Church of any kind that actually says this. Good luck in your search. You will most definitely need it.

          • Amy Hall

            We are at such opposite sides of doctrine, that there is really no need to debate. I’ve done it before, with scripture, and I get the same answers. Question?
            What do you think of the fact that the Pope is uniting Islam with the Catholic Church?

          • Greg

            He’s not…unless we’re talking about baptizing converts?

          • Amy Hall

            Romanism teaches that the Roman Church is supreme. That the Bible is the product of the church, so the church can be its only true interpreter. To you, the Scriptures are viewed as being incomplete, that there is more truth available to the church through the church. Romanism strongly emphasizes the obscurity of the Scriptures, saying that because the Scriptures are obscure, only the church can clarify them. So, the Roman Catholic Church dominates what any passage means. Also, the church gives priority of authority to tradition, and the Latin Vulgate instead of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. So, the Latin Vulgate is given priority over the original Hebrew Old Testament, and Greek New Testament. Because of it’s belief in Apostolic succession found only in the Roman church, then only the Roman church has the truth of what the Bible actually means, therefore they must determine the meaning for us. (There is no way I am going to allow a Priest of the Catholic Church to tell me what the bible says.) Especially when they have gone off and added to the original Hebrew and Greek scriptures of the New Testament, like the Apocrypha, which was never an inspired book to begin with. It was around at the time of Jesus, and not once did he quote from it.
            Jesus said:
            “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things.”
            Since that is the promise, and since there is NO WAY the Holy Spirit would lead me to believe a lie, then I have to totally reject Catholic doctrine, church of Thyatira. (Especially considering their long terrible history of abuse to both Jews, Christians, and children. )

          • Greg

            Wow….Where to begin? lol

            I’m not sure what “romanism” is but what the Catholic Church in fact teaches is that scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium (pope and bishops) are essentially all on equal footing. Tradition is not “above” the Bible, nor is any cleric.

            The Latin Vulgate was only given priority for a time. That’s no longer the case. The RSV and, I believe, New American Bibles (both very common Catholic Bibles) rely on the Greek and Hebrew, not the Latin.

            As for Jesus not quoting from the Septuagint…

            http://www.christian-history.org/septuagint.html

            If not one needs a cleric to interpret the Scriptures for them authoritatively, why are there upwards of thirty THOUSAND different Christian denominations in the world today that all claim they are the ones “just following the Bible”? Scripture says God is not a God of confusion…

          • brireward

            Amy should read what some really well read catholic converts say about what they have learned. Marcus Grodi who has the
            Coming Home Network and helps protestant clergy who have come into the church, with funds for their families when they have looked for other employment since all they had was seminary training. Scott Hahn is another who came in to the church with his heels dug in the sand saying NO!No! never!!! and did and now is employed at a catholic univ as a theology teacher!
            PLEASE GOD ENLIGHTEN YOUR “SHEEP” That’s what He called us!! like it or not.

          • Amy Hall

            Greg, The history of Penance is much more than what you are sugar coating it to be in the Catholic Church. I have seen in museums, these horrible horse hair garments that priests would wear to rake their bodies raw causing them terrible pain in order to pay some kind of penance. Roman Catholics even today take money for the forgiveness of sins as well. Tell me that is not a horrible joke and a “works religion”? And, there is no such thing as Purgatory. “A man is appointed once to die, and then the judgment.” He either goes to heaven, or hell. You guys try to , by your own righteousness “earn” your way to heaven. Trust that the “narrow gate” that Jesus spoke of is “Grace by Faith alone”, not of works, lest we should boast that there was something we could do to get ourselves to heaven. It is only by the GRACE of God that he gave his only begotten son in our place. We could not do it for ourselves. To take away what Christ did for us on the cross is to erase what he actually did. And, to venerate his earthly Mother (she was not a saint), she did have children after Christ’s birth with Joseph, and she is in heaven, shaking her head in shame that you guys do to her what she would humbly never allow, ever.

          • Greg

            Amy, I said, “The term ‘penance’ refers to ANY act of self-denial (Luke 9:23) aimed at ‘crucifying the flesh’ (Rom 8:13), whereby we become more intimately united with the Spirit of the Lord.”

            Not sure where the sugar coating entered the picture there. Yes, some people have historically done (and occasionally still do) some very strong things to reel in their passions. Some of those things have been over the top. Others you only consider strange because of the cultural difference.

            You said, “Roman Catholics even today take money for the forgiveness of sins as well.”

            lol…No, they don’t.

            You said, “there is no such thing as Purgatory. ‘A man is appointed once to die, and then the judgment.’ He either goes to heaven, or hell.”

            Yep. We agree. Purgatory is an extremely temporary state of purification on one’s way to Heaven. It’s not an eternal state.

            As for everything you said about grace, stop and think carefully for a moment about the implications. If salvation were literally by grace alone, if we truly had no role in our salvation of any kind, then every human being would be saved. And I don’t think you believe that everyone is. Do you?

            When Catholics, quoting scripture, reference salvation being by grace through faith and works, all we’re saying is that saying “Yes” to God in one moment of your life doesn’t mean you can’t say no to Him later on and revoke the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life.

            It’s not about “earning” grace, it’s about remaining faithful to it. (“Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble.” 2 Peter 1:10) If we remain faithful to grace, we will go to Heaven. If we’re not in some grave manner and stay unrepentant to death, we’ll head south.

            As for Mary “not being a Saint”, am I to take this to mean that you believe other people are? What is a Saint, in your mind?

            No, she had no other children but Christ, and I’ve already addressed the “what you guys do to her” part in another thread. That’s a Protestant illusion.

            Peace.

          • guesto3

            The only reason it’s “Roman” is because Peter had to bring it to Rome due to persecutions in Jerusalem. Oooh….Peter must himself be one of those horrible “Roman Catholics” even while being the head of that Church. Talk about schizo reasoning by the Catholic haters! BTW, all of anyone’s translation and interpretation of the actual word of God is via that Catholic Church founded by Christ Himself. Uh oh….panic has just set in!

          • Maureen

            Reading about Catholicism from Lorraine Boettner or Jack Chick tracts leads one to believe that Catholicism is the Mystery Babylon. EXCEPT, every point you made wasn’t what Catholics believe. The points you gave are what they/you think Catholics believe. These falsities have been making their rounds a long time, considering the dated language and descriptions. Refuting them does no good. Anti-catholics just keep ignoring what the ( very-public, freely stated beliefs, even found in their entirety online) the Catechism of the Catholic Church says, what actual Catholics say…as you will find in this whole discussion…Catholics will tell you we worship One God, Who has three Persons-Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We don’t worship Mary. (To which you will protest, “Oh, yes you do!) We don’t worship statues/false images…or bow to them…because we are not idolaters: People who think idols are gods, to which your reply will certainly be, “Oh, yes you do! I read it!” and so on. You will still make your claims. You got Transubstantiation very wrong, you got Justification wrong,penances and indulgences wrong, etc. Please go search for yourself, and quit casting stones at us for things you want to think, yet are not true.

          • Margot Osorio

            While our sins would have made it impossible for us to share in the life of God, Jesus Christ was sent to remove this obstacle. His death was a sacrifice for our sins. Christ is “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” (Jn 1:29). Through his death and resurrection, he conquered sin and death and reconciled us to God. The Eucharist is the memorial of this sacrifice. The Church gathers to remember and to re-present the sacrifice of Christ in which we share through the action of the priest and the power of the Holy Spirit. Through the celebration of the Eucharist, we are joined to Christ’s sacrifice and receive its inexhaustible benefits. As the Letter to the Hebrews explains, Jesus is the one eternal high priest who always lives to make intercession for the people before the Father. In this way, he surpasses the many high priests who over centuries used to offer sacrifices for sin in the Jerusalem temple. The eternal high priest Jesus offers the perfect sacrifice which is his very self, not something else. “He entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption” (Heb 9:12). Jesus’ act belongs to human history, for he is truly human and has entered into history. At the same time, however, Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity; he is the eternal Son, who is not confined within time or history. His actions transcend time, which is part of creation. “Passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation” (Heb 9:11), Jesus the eternal Son of God made his act of sacrifice in the presence of his Father, who lives in eternity. Jesus’ one perfect sacrifice is thus eternally present before the Father, who eternally accepts it. This means that in the Eucharist, Jesus does not sacrifice himself again and again. Rather, by the power of the Holy Spirit his one eternal sacrifice is made present once again, re-presented, so that we may share in it. Christ does not have to leave where he is in heaven to be with us. Rather, we partake of the heavenly liturgy where Christ eternally intercedes for us and presents his sacrifice to the Father and where the angels and saints constantly glorify God and give thanks for all his gifts: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever” (Rev 5:13). As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “By the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all” (no. 1326). The Sanctus proclamation, “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord . . . ,” is the song of the angels who are in the presence of God (Is 6:3). When in the Eucharist we proclaim the Sanctus we echo on earth the song of angels as they worship God in heaven. In the eucharistic celebration we do not simply remember an event in history. Rather, through the mysterious action of the Holy Spirit in the eucharistic celebration the Lord’s Paschal Mystery is made present and contemporaneous to his Spouse the Church. Furthermore, in the eucharistic re-presentation of Christ’s eternal sacrifice before the Father, we are not simply spectators. The priest and the worshiping community are in different ways active in the eucharistic sacrifice. The ordained priest standing at the altar represents Christ as head of the Church. All the baptized, as members of Christ’s Body, share in his priesthood, as both priest and victim. The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church, which is the Body and Bride of Christ, participates in the sacrificial offering of her Head and Spouse. In the Eucharist, the sacrifice of Christ becomes the sacrifice of the members of his Body who united to Christ form one sacrificial offering (cf. Catechism, no. 1368). As Christ’s sacrifice is made sacramentally present, united with Christ, we offer ourselves as a sacrifice to the Father. “The whole Church exercises the role of priest and victim along with Christ, offering the Sacrifice of the Mass and itself completely offered in it” ( Mysterium Fidei, no. 31; cf. Lumen Gentium, no. 11).

            In the celebration of the Eucharist, the glorified Christ becomes present under the appearances of bread and wine in a way that is unique, a way that is uniquely suited to the Eucharist. In the Church’s traditional theological language, in the act of consecration during the Eucharist the “substance” of the bread and wine is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit into the “substance” of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. At the same time, the “accidents” or appearances of bread and wine remain. “Substance” and “accident” are here used as philosophical terms that have been adapted by great medieval theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas in their efforts to understand and explain the faith. Such terms are used to convey the fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of “accidents” or physical attributes – that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of “substance” or deepest reality). This change at the level of substance from bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is called “transubstantiation.” According to Catholic faith, we can speak of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because this transubstantiation has occurred (cf. Catechism, no. 1376). This is a great mystery of our faith—we can only know it from Christ’s teaching given us in the Scriptures and in the Tradition of the Church. Every other change that occurs in the world involves a change in accidents or characteristics. Sometimes the accidents change while the substance remains the same. For example, when a child reaches adulthood, the characteristics of the human person change in many ways, but the adult remains the same person—the same substance. At other times, the substance and the accidents both change. For example, when a person eats an apple, the apple is incorporated into the body of that person—is changed into the body of that person. When this change of substance occurs, however, the accidents or characteristics of the apple do not remain. As the apple is changed into the body of the person, it takes on the accidents or characteristics of the body of that person. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is unique in that, even though the consecrated bread and wine truly are in substance the Body and Blood of Christ, they have none of the accidents or characteristics of a human body, but only those of bread and wine.

            In order for the whole Christ to be present—body, blood, soul, and divinity—the bread and wine cannot remain, but must give way so that his glorified Body and Blood may be present. Thus in the Eucharist the bread ceases to be bread in substance, and becomes the Body of Christ, while the wine ceases to be wine in substance, and becomes the Blood of Christ. As St. Thomas Aquinas observed, Christ is not quoted as saying, ” This bread is my body,” but ” This is my body” ( Summa Theologiae, III q. 78, a. 5).

          • Margot Osorio

            Purgatory has been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief , but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as “The Life of Adam and Eve”, which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day. It was also part of the true religion in Jesus’ day, as the writings of the New Testament show. And it has been part of the true religion ever since Christ’s day, as the writings of the Church Fathers show. Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term “purgatory” for it), as do Orthodox Jews. In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person’s loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner’s Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one’s purification.

            Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today.

            In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.

          • Amy Hall

            Concerning the books of the Apocrypha, they were never accepted by the Jewish community, nor by the Church at large, as being inspired. Only later in history did the Catholic Church make them part of the canon, because it helped support the church’s doctrine of purgatory. But it was never part of those Scriptures accepted either by Jews or by the larger believing Church.

            Keep in mind that the books of the Apocrypha were already in existence at the time of Jesus. Yet the New Testament never categorized the books of the Apocrypha as “Scripture.” When the New Testament talks about Scripture, it only deals with the same three-fold division as found in the Hebrew Bible: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. The rabbis never quote from the Apocrypha as divine authority. Moreover, neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever quote the Apocrypha as divine authority. In fact, what was considered “Scripture” clearly excluded the Apocrypha from the perspective of both the Jewish community and the Messianic community of the New Testament. While the early Jewish believers saw the writings of the Apostles as “Scripture,” and the Old Testament as “Scripture,” the Apocrypha was never accepted as such.

          • Margot Osorio

            The books of the Old Testament were written probably between 1000 and 100 BC, an are usually distinguished as three sets: The Law (or Torah, our first five books of the Old Testament), The Prophets and The Writings. Even in the New Testament itself, we find references to the reading of the Law and the Prophets in synagogue services (e.g. LK 4:16-19), Jamnia (90-100), at which time they established what books would be considered their Sacred Scripture. At this time, some controversy still existed over what are called the seven “deuterocanonical books”—Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees, and Esther—although they had been incorporated in their entirety or at least partially in versions of the Septuagint, the official Greek translation of the Old Testament (c. 100 BC). Part of the reason for the controversy was because these were the latest writings of the Old Testament and were written in Greek rather than Hebrew; the other books of the Old Testament—the “protocanonical books”—were older and originally written in Hebrew. Modern scholars not that Jamnia did not exclude any books definitively; a rigid fixing of the Jewish canon does not occur until at least 100 years later, and even then other books—including the deuterocanonical books—were read and honored. Many Scripture scholars, however, have no doubt that the apostolic Church accepted the deuterocanonical books as part of its canon of Sacred Scriptures. For instance, Origen (d. 245) affirmed the use of these books among Christians even though some of the Jewish leaders did not officially accept them.

          • Amy Hall

            The doctrine of Purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews? I don’t believe that at all, but even still:
            What does that make them before they were Christian? It makes them Jews practicing the dispensation of the Mosaic Law religion. Before “Grace through Faith”.
            So, according to the Catholic Church, the meaning of the word, “Purgatory” means “purification” for those not bad enough to go to Hell, and not good enough to go to Heaven.

            One spends a duration of time in Purgatory and then finally, he can go to Heaven. But, how long must they stay in Purgatory?

            According to the Catholics: it varies depending on to the needs of the individuals. Time in Purgatory can be shortened by prayers, by good works, by attending Mass, by penance, and by the purchasing of indulgences.

            You guys try to support this teaching with teaching Purgatory picked up in the Apocrypha. This is why you have chosen to make the books of the Maccabees part of Scripture, though it was never accepted by the Jews, and in the time of Jesus, the books of the Maccabees were never classed among that which was known as Scripture.

            You use this in: II Maccabees 12:41-45
            So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
            42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judah exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
            44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

            45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

            THAT is what the Catholic uses to justify the doctrine of Purgatory. This quote from the apocryphal citation actually proves far too much for the Catholic church because the specific sin in the passage was the sin of idolatry! and, yet the sin of idolatry is one of the “seven deadly sins” in Catholicism for which there can only be Hell, not Purgatory.

            The concept of Purgatory is a very clear denial of the finished work of the Messiah. The New Testament tells us that Jesus died on the cross once and for all , a finished work that means the believer has once and for all been purified.

            Titus 2:13-14
            13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
            14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

            Hebrews 1:3
            Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

          • brireward

            Think of purgatory this way—- You break the neighbor’s window–He forgives you since you are truly sorry,,,,,,,BUT that doesn’t mean you don’t have to replace the window!

          • Kirry

            You are COMPLETELY misinformed. This is why so many people have issues with the catholic church. Pick up a book by REAL Catholics. Don’t listen to what your ill informed pastors or friends tell you about the catholic faith. This is all wrong. You sure aren’t trying to find the true church if you believe this garbage and its the extent of your search. Be a little scholastic and try some real research instead if hearsay. Even if you dont agree with what you find, don’t deny yourself the opportunity to find truth by settling for misinformation.

          • Amy Hall

            Kirry, I have picked up books from the Catholic church, and because I do study the real scriptures, I could easily spot the counterfeit, and it’s emphasis on “listen to the Priest”. You need to pick up the King James bible and ask God (not Mary) to give you the illumination of the Holy Spirit to understand what it says.

          • Faith

            You are soul lost… please study these 4 great MEGA CHURCH PASTORS who GOT IT RIGHT… Left their Protestant Churches teaching FALSE DOCTRINES for the ONE TRUE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST…. THE CATHOLIC CHRUCH…. DR.SCOTT HAHN, ALLEN HUNT, ALEX JONES, TIM STAPLES, … GET THE FACTS !! You will learn the TRUTH… Satan has so many souls,, Thank you JESUS for converting me to the one true Apostolic Church and giving us your Mother on the cross to lead us to you Jesus. May we always ask for her Heavenly prayers as we ask our Earthly mother for prayers, Mary is there with you Jesus by your side as your loving Mother ! I cannot wait to be with all the Saints in Heaven and before the Throne of God !!

          • JoyInTheLord

            Amy, all these things you’re saying are hearsays. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church before you say what we Catholics believe in. Here it is: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm

          • Martin Gran

            I suggest that instead of spreading your little fear mongering hate that you actually try to learn the truth about the Catholic faith and not the trash you have learned in your little cult protestant church. You are a typical of the blind trying to lead the blind.

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            Amy, sounds like your into chick publishing,. Forbidding priests to marry, Ha, Paul says himself that it is better to stay single if you want to serve the Lord wholeheartedly.. Priests can marry in the eastern rites. In the roman rite it is considered a discipline, it can be changed. If God did not want us to have statues why did he command statues of angels be put in the temple and on the ark of the covenant. You are misinterpreting the scriptures. Only the Catholic Church has the authority through the Holy Spirit to interprete John 16. How about this one, Jesus breathes on the apostles and then says, “receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven them, whose sins you retain they are retained.” You cannot retain, hold bound, someone’s sins if you do not know them. When Jesus breathes on the apostles it shows the significance of this, the only other time God breathes on anyone is when he made Adam and Eve. Read, Karl Keating’s book, “Catholicism and Fundamentalism, the attack on “Romanism” by “Bible Christians.” If your so right you wouldn’t believe artificial birth control was ok to use. The Holy Spirit would never ok such an evil practice. In Genesis God slew Onan for spilling his seed, Onan was Judah’s son. God called it detestable. You people profess to go by Scripture but skip over important verses. As far as the Eucharist goes, there have been hundreds of Eucharistic miracles throughout the ages where the bread and wine have turned to actual flesh and blood, google the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano. When Jesus told the crowd they needed to eat his flesh and drink his blood, many of his followers walked away from him saying it was too hard to accept. Jesus did not say wait come back that is not what I meant, he then turned to Peter and said are you going to leave me too, and Peter replied in the negative. Read all of the Bible not just parts.

          • JoyInTheLord

            On what authority are you saying this, Amy: “Catholics are practicing an old false religion originated from Baal worship…”

            Is this authority credible?

          • Amy Hall

            On the authority of facts, called History. On authority of what the bible clearly shows. Thyatira: means “continual and perpetual sacrifice”, like Transubstantiation. Revelation 2:18-29

          • sam

            Most protestants love attacking the catholic church simply because it is the largest and has a history that dates back to Christ’s time on earth but also has that biting truth they cannot stand. I don’t know how many times I have corrected these people and still they cling to the same worn out lies perpetrated ad infinitum. It’s like fighting a forest fire with a cupful of water, it never ends. Because protestants as a whole are scattered as hell has intended, there is no cohesion on their part. They in essence have LESS to do with believing in the bible and MORE to do with the commonality of hating the true church.

          • JoyInTheLord

            Sam, let’s pray for them. Jesus loves them equally as He loves any one of us. We are in a spiritual battle and prayers are our best weapons. And what is a better prayer than the Holy Mass?

          • sam

            Yes I know , I should pray for them. It really doesn’t enter into the picture for me though. There are many catholics who believe or think like protestants , as I have some family members who are lax in that regard . The protestant mentality has crept into the church and has gotten stronger , esp. since vcii ecumenism has been entrenched . It’s as if the reformation has not ceased but steadily grown even without many in the church realizing it.

          • guesto3

            More of the same stupidity. How a now gazillion splinters of “churches”, collectively called “protestantism”, with their own personal choices for pastors whom they can fire at will when their own form of religion is challenged has somehow become some unified body of their “christ” is beyond logic. They have no longer any real authority except by each’s own personally desired interpretation of something beyond their feeble understanding and experiences. You couldn’t get even a small group of them in a room and not have continuing disagreements and rationalizations for what “feels” right to them individually…in order to convince them that no matter what they believe or do they are “saved”. Certainly makes God their own creation rather than the other way round.

          • Johnny

            In the meantime you people are scared of Christ hating, Anti-Christ, Christian killing Muslims. What a bunch of idiots and morons.

          • Miss Patty

            Heidi, what idol’s are worshipped by the Catholics? I don’t worship any idol’s

          • Maureen Van Dusen

            Anyone with sense knows that Catholics do not worship idols. If that is so why did Jesus leave his image on the shroud. When John stooped into the tomb, he saw and believed. What did he see? Not just an empty tomb, but the shroud with Jesus’s imprint on it. It was kept secret because of the jews misunderstanding of the commandment not to worship idols. God wanted statues of angels put in the temple and on the ark of the covenant. You think God would go against his own commandment? Think again. Heidi if you have pictures of family members in your home then you are an idol worshipper. Same thing sweetie.

          • Amy Hall

            Unity of true believers only. We are not to worship with Apostates who never had the truth to begin with.

          • Sherry Omalley

            It is not for you to judge how “Christian” another believer is, but for GOD as HE sees the true heart and soul..many religious are but pompous outwardly devout but self righteous..no human, even in believers, is perfect, and that is why we need HIM every second..”judge not lest ye be Judged.” “Take the log out of your own eye before the splinter in your brother’s”. We are to pointt he WAY, not the finger, and gently, like CHRIST, seek and speak truth in love, with love.God bless you and keep a tender heart for all.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Matthew 10:34, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.”

          • bamared2222

            Yes, but we should also exercise discernment to tell the sheep from the goats. We should measure them by their FRUITS, not their WORDS necessarily. There is a very fine line between truth and error in doctrine and we must be careful to know the difference.

          • Thomas Collins Jr June

            You don’t have to be in a position of authority to be a false prophet. I’d suggest you look in a mirror. God Bless

          • Nina Venturina

            “Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.”

          • Kim

            He calls the Pope Holy Father b/c that is his title, like calling the leader of a church a pastor, reverend, etc. Any more lies you want to spread??

          • Neiman

            A. He called him the Holy Father, which title belongs to God alone.
            B. In any context, he should never have called him “Holy Father,” it is blasphemy.

          • Jimmie Bates

            Kim: In Matthew 23:2-12 Jesus is dealing with the scribes and Pharisees, who were the religious leaders of that day. He describes their teachings and actions; and their teachings and actions were a testimony to who they were. They loved the recognition and adulation they received from many of those who were under their teaching; they loved “the exalted titles” of. Rabbi and Master; and then in V9, He instructed them and us to “Call no man your father, for one is your Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for One is your Master, Christ.”
            These exalted titles, Hoy Father, Pontifex Maximus, Vicar of Christ are all titles the popes have taken unto themselves. And, in those assumed roles they are God’s 0nly representative on earth. It’s in that role that the popes claim they are given the authority to confer salvation on whomsoever they will; because salvation has been vested in the Roman Catholic Church; and the conditions under which salvation will; be granted is, baptism by a Roman Catholic priest into the Roman Catholic Church; and pledging one’s allegiance to the pope and the church. These things may be verified by reading the Roman Catholic Church councils, and the ex cathedra pronouncements of the different popes over the years.
            I do not post this to attempt to demean anyone, nor to win and argument; but I do contend that these things are life and death issues, and we ought to search the scriptures, and not church dogma; whether it be Roman Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian, or Pentecostal teaching or dogma; for our belief systems.
            Jimmie

          • Debbie Learn

            Calling someone who is the Shepherd of a church a Pastor or Reverend is very much different than calling a mere man the Holy Father. God is the ONLY Holy Father! Jesus cannot even be called the Holy Father. Just as it is written; man ought not to think more highly of themselves than they ought. The Pope’s “title,” as you call it, is Pope and needs to be addressed as such! So those who call Pope Francis Holy Father are indeed the ones spreading the lies!!! God will NOT be mocked.

          • wackyt

            Catholics call the pope “Holy Father” not as an acknowledgement of his personal state of soul but as an expression of respect for his office as successor to Peter and head of the Church on earth. His is a holy office.

          • Debbie Learn

            Well see, here are more lies. Because the Apostle Peter started the first church in Rome based on the teachings of Jesus. And Peter was JEWISH, as was Jesus……not Catholic! How is that a successor??? And Peter, being a humble man, said he was not worthy to be crucified on the cross right side up, like our Savior Jesus, but instead upside down. He did NOT think more highly of himself! As we are not suppose to. So, calling a person or an office “Holy Father” is indeed blaspheme to The ONLY “Holy God our Father!” I wonder if this is why GOD our Holy Father is dismantling the Catholic religion by shutting down more and more of their churches?

          • pax2u

            dismantling? not so much
            1.2 billion souls for Jesus Christ
            2000 years
            and the gates of hades shall not prevail

          • wackyt

            You need to research the history not only of the Catholic Church but also the Jewish church. In Matt 23:1-3 Jesus says “The scribes and the Pahrisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example…..” What is the chair of Moses? It refers to the office that they hold and the authority they have. In Isaiah 22:19 it says:” I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station…..I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder. When he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open..” Authority.

          • wackyt

            Another example I can think of is the office of the President. It doesn’t matter what kind of scumbag he is, the office he holds is honorable and we should give him the due respect that his office holds.
            Peace to you.

          • Brenda

            Yup!

          • Heidi K.

            Amen and Amen.

          • deb

            all of this saddens Christ… what a waste

          • Neiman

            Yes it does, Warren, the Pope, the Catholic Church and their corruption of God’s Word does sadden Jesus.

          • deb

            It amazes me that you believe you are 100% correct and they are wrong. I encourage you to read early Church Father’s writings. The amazing faith and belief they had in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit to guide them in helping to for His Church. Read the actual words of the men who debated and deciphered and listened to the Holy Spirit. Peace in Christ my friend.

          • Neiman

            Why? I know the thoroughly evil product of the Roman Catholic Church. What proof do you have that their words were any more than just words? Besides all the many false teachings, the Inquisition, the murders, the sexually promiscuous Popes, the wars they led, the child molesting priests, their amassing great wealth and on and on, no matter what they said, the results were wicked and anti-Christ.

            I do not believe I am 100% correct about anything, I am a sinner saved by grace; but I can read the bible, I can read the history of the Catholic Church and I can see that they have no relationship to Christ. See unlike Catholics I stand on God’s Word as led by the Holy Spirit, not on tradition, liturgies, sacraments, the Eucharist, penance, Purgatory, not on appealing to Mary or the falsely-called saints. If I cannot stand on God’s Word alone, if I cannot trust the Holy Spirit to bring me into all truth, then the Christian faith would be a lie.

            I do not want to offend Catholics, heck I don’t even want to offend homosexuals or anyone else; but, when any Christian sees that which is not in harmony with the Gospel, when they see sin, when they see End Times Prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes, just speaking honestly about these things, opposing these things, will cause offense, it is unavoidable. That is why the world hates Christ and hates His children, any stand on God’s Word and against evil will create hatred against us. The first appeal of anti-Christ rascals is to some saccharine sweet, ultra-tolerant love of the flesh and if anyone does not act according to that earthly standard, we are accused of hate.

          • Heather

            Just from some of the responses to your post about unity of the DIFFERENT faiths being what God wants, we can see how the majority that is left behind will accept the lies to worship the Antichrist. Revelation foretells that it is the False Prophet who deceives the people into worshiping the man of perdition and taking his mark. Our brethren needs to open their eyes to the times that we are living in. The hour is later than one realizes. Jesus is coming back very soon!

          • Neiman

            Most of the organized Christian Church is actually turning away from the idea of Jesus return and away from the idea of the rapture, but to all the world’s religions working working together to establish His Kingdom on earth. Yet, it has always been this looking for His return that causes His children to have their spiritual lamps lit, their lives ready for His return and that is what these apostate religions are trying to stop, stop looking for the bridegroom to return and when they stop, they are like the foolish virgins not having oil for their lamps and not being saved.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: We are told in scripture “DO NOT CALL ANYONE YOUR FATHER”. We have one FATHER alone and that is GOD in Heaven. The Pope did meet with the Muslim Cleric as well as protestant leaders and is forming the One World Religion with the goal of trying to get us all under one umbrella…

          • Neiman

            Obviously this passage has a special meaning. Certainly we can call our biological male parent our father. Paul referred to himself as the father in their knowledge the Gospel of the early churches. I have no particular problem of Catholics using the word father for a priest in place of reverend, although even then it can be terribly misplaced and an error, because they are not really father’s in introducing them to the true Gospel.

            Wherein Warren, Catholics and most people refer to the Pope as their or the Holy Father, placing him on the same level as Almighty God, the Father of all those children born again in Christ, is where the problem lies; and, it grants this false Pope a degree of supremacy in all things religious, so that he is in the position to build the most unholy one-world religion as its head. That is why I say he sits in the seat of the False Prophet.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: I understand completely. Most children say daddy and not father. As for the False Prophet, yes that is exactly what Tom Horn says in his book about the last Pope. I think the last one was to be the 112th Pope of the HRCC. According to author Horn that is this Pope. He is busy forming the One World Religion now and we will be all under one umbrella. Muslims, Catholics and Christians and it will be called CHRISLAM.

          • pax2u

            hey Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

            George Washington is called the father of his country
            Thomas Jefferson and John Addams are called founding fathers of America

            is America a Pagan country

            Germany is called the Fatherland, is Germany a Pagan country

            do you honor your mother and father, are you a pagan?

          • Neiman

            Well we are sure of one thing, your only true father is the Devil! Just ask the host of demons that possess your soul.

          • pax2u

            sad that you are possessed by demons, and those voices in your head

          • pax2u

            Neumannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn where is your seventh day adventist protector, oh that is right it is saturday

          • pax2u

            I pary to the Christian God, Jesus Christ to for give you of your hatred

          • JoyInTheLord

            Fundisi, how could you suggest that the Pope is listening to Lucifer? By their fruits, you shall know them. Please be careful of what you say because anything that does not do good is not coming the Lord.

          • Fundisi

            First, he denies the Gospel of Grace, he represents “another Gospel,” and the Holy Spirit says that such people are accursed.

            He allows himself to be called “The Holy Father” and the Vicar of Christ. The first is right from Lucifer, he is claiming to be God and sit upon His Throne, which was the sin of Lucifer. He assumes the role of representing Christ on earth, which is anti-Christ.

            I could go on a long time, but he represents a false church, a false Gospel and seeks to assume God’s Throne.

          • Julie

            World Council of Churches was in that vein awhie back…don’t know what happened to them…..

            The Church has never changed its position. Consistent teachings for 2000 years…something any human being cannot do.

            This is work of Holy Spirit.

            Do you have any interest in finding out what Catholics truly believe instead of these false preachers that are so common in the U SA?

          • AugustineThomas

            You’re right, but you’re on the wrong side. All Christians should return to the only Church that Christ founded and reject Protestant heresy, which leads so many astray, to a dangerous position in which they’re following their ego over Christ’s command for unity in ONE Church.
            We should all pray that Protestants won’t go to Hell to avoid admitting that they were following their egos instead of Christ’s One True Church.

          • Kim

            And not to mention wears t-shirts and jeans when he preaches to the church. Sigh … But it’s ok, I’m dealing with it.

          • Heidi K.

            You are deceived. Roman Catholicism is an evil cult.

          • pax2u

            any chance that you have a denomination?

          • Amy Hall

            He is not teaching, in any sense of the word, “strict biblical doctrine”. If anything, he is completely twisting the scriptures, a line of truth used only to deceive. We know where that comes from!

          • Julie

            Thanks for your faith. The Vatican has long said it is almost impossible to even have any dialogue with Islam.

            All we can agree on is we believe in One God, One Creator….denounce violence in the name of God…and what else can he do???????????

            The world has been fighting Islam in the name of God…besides the Christians…the Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists…who else?…..

          • Kim

            You’ll say anything to keep the lie alive. Good job!!

          • Heather

            I agree with you 100%. It is an abomination to God for all the different religions to join together as one because we all know they do not all worship the same One True God. He has said He will have no other gods before Him and he means it. This is exactly why the One World Religion( that is in the early stages of forming) is named the Harlot in Revelation. There is a great deception going on right now and there is a greater one coming.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: Yes absolutely correct. I just wrote about that same thing to KIM before I read what you wrote and in agreement with your comment 110%. These people listen to all these false messages and they don’t know what’s truth and what’s not truth. I am glad there are others out there that know what’s really going on.

          • Julie

            The pope is not.

            do you realize just how much the media distorts his talks?

          • Julie

            Likewise we will never enter into Protestantism nor will the Orthodox.

          • Don Fass

            AND Rick worships once a month at a synagogue and is a close friend of its Rabbi, which is how I first met him. Rick, like all of you, isn’t perfect but he is the ONLY megachurch pastor who gives away most of his money and flies with his wife Kay to all parts of the world to eradicate disease and hunger. Do most of you do anything according to God and Jesus to radically change society and the world, to live out Matthew 25 and Isaiah 58, or example? and St. Paul wrote ‘of these, LOVE is the most important.’ So, whose faith is the EMPTY one?

          • timwirth
          • Heidi K.

            unity leads to a one world religion!

          • pax2u

            do you have a denomination, or are you alone?

          • Kim

            But Jesus called us to be in unity. So is Jesus wrong? You had posted that I should read my bible. I ask that you also read yours and see that lying and making up gossip about a group of people is also wrong. I know Catholics who are more in love with Jesus than I could ever be. ANd yet, here you stand, judge, jury and executioner, deciding that all these wonderful Catholics aren’t in the body of Christ. Now I wonder, who needs to read the bible?

          • wandakate

            KIM: You might want to study what is about to happen in the world. A New World Order is forming (Agenda 21) have you read up on that yet? What about the One World Government and the One World Religion? Just b/c Rick Warren hasn’t mentioned it doesn’t mean he isn’t aware of it and involved in it. The Pope met at the Vatican with Kenneth Copeland, James Robison and even Joel Osteen along with a Muslim Cleric. They are all in agreement that the One World Religion will form soon. They are working on that now and it should materialize in 2015 or 2016. Rick Warren is in agreement with all of it and this why he is taking the stand that he is taking. He is for sure into the One World Religion agenda…Studying and researching will do you some good and not just listening to these preachers that will tell you whatever your itching ears want to hear.

          • Nann

            I agree.

          • bamared2222

            How about him pushing the concept of Chrislam??? He actually spoke at a Muslim conference (more than once) and has promoted that idea among other Christians. He has ceded God to be the same as Allah and that is heresy!! You better study his teachings and doctrine and practices much closer my dear otherwise you will be led astray.

          • ort

            If he preaches the same thing your pastor preaches, run–don’t walk–to another church.

          • deb

            WHAT END TIMES PROPHECIES ARE YOU REFERRING TO, those in the bible?? Revelation? I would love you to please give a verse reference to clarify.

          • Neiman
          • deb
          • Neiman

            Of course the Catholic Church would say it is a matter of misinterpretation, the Pope is sitting in the Chair of the False Prophet and he knows the Catholic Church is the the head of the Great Whore of Babylon, with false ministers like Warren and many other evangelicals and Protestants, aligning themselves with every other world religion, Apostate Christianity is the false one-world religion of the End Times. The Catholic Church has no credibility in interpreting Scripture, just ask your mother Mary.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: Sid Roth who is a Jew and has his own ministry in South Carolina says in the book They Thought For Themselves, that it’s the joining together of the ONE NEW MAN. It’s a combination of the Jews and the Gentiles. It’s not a joining of the Christians, the Catholics and the Muslims. That joining is Satanic in nature, it’s not from GOD.

          • Neiman

            Sorry, this one-world religion is anti-Christ, it is an evil organism.

          • wandakate

            NEIMAN: I meant to say that Sid Roth is saying that the joining of the Jews and the Gentiles was what GOD wanted, and NOT this satanic religion that is being formed. You misunderstood what I was saying but the way it was written it was my fault, sorry. One New Man was supposed to be the formation of the Jews and the Gentiles, and not the formation of the Muslims, the Christians, and the Catholic church.

          • Neiman

            Thank you for the clarification. I am sorry I was so dense and did not get it. Yes, I agree with Roth.

          • Amy Hall

            That is so true! I agree.

          • guesto3

            But He DID say to Peter….thou art “Peter”/rock and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Thus His foundation as He established it to be will never end not matter what is put up against it. And He always intended no split from what He formed so that it becomes man formed rather than God formed as He prayed for all to be one as He and the Father were/are one. Such separation/splintering then is a scandal and disobedience to His will. And He took into account man’s own failings/sin when He did such as He spoke about “if any man says he’s without sin he’s a liar”.

          • Fundisi

            You and your Roman Catholic anti-Christ priest leaders have perverted this passage. It was Peter a small rock/stone that was given the keys to announcing the Gospel, but the rock, the big rock on which the Church was to be built had to be Christ, He would not, he could not build His Church on any sinful man.

            The true Church, the Body of Christ is not split, it is one in Christ, they agree on the essentials of the faith, they are scattered throughout the man organized Church, but no man-made ecclesiastical organization is the Church.

            There is no split in the Body of Christ, it is impossible, any schisms are between true believers and false believers.

          • Julie

            Since when is the Catholic Church the anti christ?

            It has been around for 2000 years.

            You will do yourself a huge favor to get educated and get out of this American falsehood mindset.

          • Fundisi

            The Roman Catholic Church has not been around for 2000 years, it has nothing to do with the Apostolic Church, it is anti-Christ!

          • Julie

            You are speaking from yourself without any proof.

            You should back out and pray to the Lord..you are responding with emotions and bias..this is not the Holy Spirit.

          • Julie

            what credentials do End Times have? where did they start and who are their authors and what kind of education do they have?????????????????????

          • Fundisi

            It’s called the Bible, God is its Author, He is a know it all and His credentials are Divine.

          • Julie

            These ideas are creation of 1800’s American restorationism…and its offshoots..so far out.

          • Julie

            Get hold of a Catholic catechism.

          • Nann

            I agree with you. Satan is the enemy. You are so right. He loves for us to hate and distrust each other. Is God infallible? Yes, and he alone knows who is trusting in him for salvation and not works. He is the only one to judge human beings.

          • wandakate

            NANN: We are indeed saved by faith, BUT, we will be judged by our works…We get saved first and then the works will follow. There will be crowns in heaven.

          • guesto3

            “Works” are nothing more than actual fruits of our faith and love….as in Christ letting those who thought He would know them simply because they preached His name in the market place. And yet He let them know that He did not know them with the examples of “being hungry and not fed; being thirsty and not given a drink; or being in jail and not visited”….when you DO such for the least you DO for Him. IOW, how does one really love Christ and not show it to Him living in others? i.e. good example being Mother Theresa. One’s “faith” then must be in someone other than the real Christ when love bears no fruit in action. Pretty logical. Faith then isn’t reduced to some easy get out of jail free card or taken out of any connection with Christ Jesus Himself and ALL of His teachings and examples!

          • Julie

            When it comes to one’s salvation….it is best to hold on to the traditions of our faith rather than play with dice … name it claim it…who is doing the deciding the Lord or the person?

          • wandakate

            I don’t recall disputing any of that, and agree that our works will follow our faith. FAITH without WORKS is dead according to James. We will know them by their fruits, true…Many claim to be Christians but won’t do anything for you…So, we will know.

          • Jesse

            Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away…jf…

          • B. Godard

            I agree. Believing that God loved us enough to sacrifice His only son, to die for us and redeem us, then it seems we are to follow Jesus’ commandment.to “love God and one another” out of lovel. And if we follow Jesus’ commandment, then that is how we show God our love for Him and for how Jesus suffered and died for us. If we do good deeds for any other reasons, such as fear or the hope to gain entrance into heaven, then I think we miss the point.

          • Nann

            I was only saying that trusting in works will not bring salvation. Only God knows who is truly saved.

          • Gaffer7

            Right on Nann — since Vatican (Misinterpreted by the Laity) we somehow or other forgot about PRAYER and have turned into Social workers — We need to realize that it is Gods’ action – and without Prayer – we are nothing – without His Grace. All the great Saint Missionaries (Had great faith)

          • praedicator

            That is true. As St James says ‘show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.’ (Jas.2.18)

          • The Manz

            All the works in the world won’t save you. You misunderstand James.

          • Jesse

            Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

          • praedicator

            Jmes2.18:’Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith
            without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.’ Are we children of the new covenant or the old?

          • praedicator

            Matt. 25.35. ‘Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed
            of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation
            of the world. 35For
            I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you
            gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’…
            Do we take the words of Isaiah above the words of Christ?

          • Nann

            God assess us by our works. Works do not being salvation. Faith in Christ alone brings salvation. I was stating that only God knows who is saved and who is not.

          • Zolicon

            Yes He does and thus far You are all getting an F.

          • Adriana Renaud

            Philippians 2:12

          • SmellsBells

            And yet the sola-sciptura folks follow the 16th century Luther canon. That has always fascinated me.

          • Julie

            He rejected the Septuagint and took on the Hebrew translation that did not anticipate the Messiah as the Septuagint did, and was the one referenced by Our Lord and his apostles and St Paul.

          • SmellsBells

            WHERE did Jesus Christ reject the Septuagint? That’s nothing more than 16th Century hogwash. Again, WHERE did he reject it?

            The historical fact is that as a rabbi on Earth in that part of the world at that time, the version of the Tanakh Jesus Christ would have employed in study is indeed the Septuagint with ALL the OT books.

            You need to do you homework. You need to understand the history behind the Bible — both the OT and NT. It didn’t start in the 16th Century AD as some would like to suggest.

          • pax2u

            maybe Julie is referring to Martin Luther rejecting the Septuagint?

          • Julie

            Dear….we are discussing Martin Luther.

          • Jesse

            My dreams usually interest me as well.

          • Julie

            Go to Catholic Answers…you need more in depth explanation…faith history is 2 millenia…..in context of events in every generation….protestors tend to read the fine details…including those who wake up early and think we are talking against the Septuagint.

            There was a fellow a while back that studied how just so much Protestants are being led by heresy and have a low expectations of what communion we are all called to, as well as how much they are missing out on the depth and breadth of Christ among us.

          • The Manz

            You are spreading lies everywhere you comment.

          • Julie

            Why you single me out when there are other Catholics attempting to share the truth of our faith.

          • The Manz

            You apparently don’t know the truth of your religious system or you would extricate yourself from catholicism. It is the great deception. I’ve seen you comment other places. I am concerned about your salvation. It’s impossible to be catholic and be saved. I will get to the others. Time is short.

          • Julie

            No… God bless you and good bye.

          • The Manz

            God bless you too, Julie.

          • Destiny Eldred

            It all so very interesting. I studied and considered becoming Catholic, but in the end, opted not to. But I really value and appreciate the contribution of Catholicism to Christ’s work in history.

          • DebraBrunsberg

            Actually, it was Christ who created the Church and it was and always will be Catholic. Christ did not create any other church. He didn’t’ need to, as the bible states, He is the Head of the Church. He didn’t change his mind after 1600 years and think, wow, I should have created about 10,000 different churches with different interpretations of everything I said because that is certainly how one is united with me as I requested they be. Yea. Yea.

          • The Manz

            Christ did not create RCC. That would make Him a liar concerning His own Gospel as RCC teaches a false gospel.

          • The Manz

            RCC is not a Christian religion. They don’t do Christ’s work. They teach a different gospel.

          • Lou Pizzuti

            Adriana, technically it was the Pharisees who removed the Deuterocanonicals and rejected the Septuagint, preferring their altered Hebrew text (this alteration was claimed in the second century by St. Justin Martyr and has been substantiated by comparison of the Hebrew OT texts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls).
            Luther merely preferred the Pharisee’s text over the Septuagint.

          • Adriana Renaud

            At the time of the Pharisees there was no “Old” or New Testament. No Christian Bible. The Deuterocanonicals were included in the first Christian (Catholic) Church’s Bible until Luther removed them.

          • Julie

            You go farther by saying the Catholic Church uses the Septuagint Tradition that came about 100 years before Christ…the one Christ Himself reference..as well as the apostles and St. Paul.

            Luther threw out the Septuagint and wrote his own bible in German.

            I cannot see how anyone can say Catholics blindly follow the pope when in fact he represents all of us in communion…and then disregard how Luther all alone set up his own theology and bible — with no communal discernment for historical accuracy.

            Sounds to me protestants who are most anti catholic are the ones following man made interpretations.

          • davend

            I’m not sure where you’re getting your history, but it needs some updating. The Catholic Church doesn’t “use the Septuagint”; if you want that you’re going to have to follow the Greek Orthodox Church, which has a longer canon than the Catholic Church (includes Psalm 151, III Maccabees and 2 Esdras–not in the Catholic Bible).

            Luther never “threw out the Septuagint”; in fact his translation of the Bible (1535) includes Psalm 151 and the Prayer of Manasseh plus all the books that are in the Catholic Bible.

          • Julie

            All my instructors say so…but then he was trying to find a pure version..so he went to the Hebrews…those 200 years after Christ…riled by dissension and disagreements that did not anticipate the Messiah.

            The Septuagint was put together by 70 rabbis called by the Emperor Ptolemy to add to his library…so he had each rabbi separated with their own scribe(s). When they came back together, the Greek translations matched each rabbi’s work, book for book, page for page, phrase and words..identical..the work of the Holy Spirit…this atleast 100 years before Christ…others say 200 years….the LXX (70) version.

            Certainly Luther was not in their camp….but he did re write his bible…according to his own…and we have no issues with the Greek Orthodox, which, incidentally is closest to the Latin rite, an most united with us in restoring our ancient unity.

            Likewise Lutheran protestants see Peter’s affirmation of Christ the Son of the Living God as a declaration of faith. Peter was already a loyal follower of Christ.

            Rather what we witness is the indwelling of Peter is now head of Christ’s visible Church. And then his humanity … where Satan enters him to talk Christ out of His Passion and death.
            The apostles all hid suffering and weak, unable to do anything, even after their encounters with Christ…until Pentecost when they …as Church…began…united, one. The Church beginning as people…living… part of the corner stone. Christ the Cornerstone.

            When the East and West are restored…it will work a great grace and am seeing that already in Rick Warren.

          • The Manz

            The only ancient unity the catholic church ever strived for was that of Nimrod’s Babylonian kingdom of which they will achieve through ecumenism and the Marxism of Francis.

            BTW, Peter was never made pope by Christ. Christ is the rock not Peter. What would ever make you think God would make a fallen man the head of His church? Jesus/God is the rock. If you’ve read the Bible you would know how many hundreds of times it appears in the book of Psalms alone. You want to believe these lies that’s why God is sending you delusion. Romans 1

            The only vicar of Christ Jesus on earth is the Holy Spirit which the papacy has tried to usurp even saying it is infallible and exalting itself above God. God is no respecter of persons.

          • Adriana Renaud

            Why are you so threatened by the Roman Catholic Church? Jesus told Simon that his name was changed to Peter which means ROCK. Matthew 16:18-19 “I tell you you are Peter (Rock) and on this (Peter) Rock I will build my Church”. God does not send anyone into delusion. I wonder which “spirit” you are listening to. Consider your intentions whether they come from true concern or blind hatred.

          • The Manz

            “God does not send anyone into delusion.” I guess you haven’t read Romans 1 then.

            Actually it means stone, but when Jesus said “and upon this rock. . . ” he was not talking about Peter as the rock but Himself relating back to the statement Peter made prior to that verse- Matthew 16:

            13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

            14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

            15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

            16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

            17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

            Peter’s revelation from the Father that Jesus was the Son of God is the “rock” that qualifies to build the church on. Have you read the whole bible? Have you counted the number of times God/Jesus is said to be the rock, the foundation, or the cornerstone? You really believe Jesus would build His church on a fallible man who just a couple of verses later Christ admonished as satan and who would shortly also deny him 3 times???? The Vatican (unholy roman empire) spun this to its advantage and it will reap what they’ve sowed.

            Further, Jesus made this statement in the vicinity of Mt. Hermon in Caesaria Phillipi, which is where the fallen angels (watchers) descended upon earth. He was making a spiritual claim on that property taking it back from satan’s hordes.

            I am not at all threatened by the catholic church. I see it as the mission field of a lifetime!

          • Julie

            Sorry…Christ the Cornerstone..Peter the rock, Aramaic/Greek for pertaining to person. Fifth year study at major university in language, fall seminary sessions: roots of papacy.

            So my previous remarks on Peter were truth and that is why you spoke so abusively.

            Peter was co founder with Paul…they founded the Church of Rome. Linus followed, then Clement….bishop of Rome…title of pope came later to reflect the unity of all Christians under one head…not competing ones.

          • The Manz

            Roots of papacy is in the seed of satan. Perhaps Mike Gendron could get through to you. Look up “Proclaiming the Gospel.”

          • John Germain

            It is obvious we cannot throw away the first 1500 years of Christianity which the protestants all do. Christ started his church, gave it his authority (which he got from the Father) over 2000 years ago, not just a few hundred years ago. It is good to read all that was written in the first 1500 years of “magisterium” which the bible is part of. The bible is the document used by the church to aid future generations in the Tradition taught verbally for over 300 years in the beginning of the church. Even the bible says that it is not all that was taught, and defers to “the church”, no where in the bible is the bible mentioned as the lone source of faith, but we are often reminded to appeal to “the church” by t

          • davend

            I think you’re confusing Protestants (an extremely diverse phenomenon) with Evangelicals–a specific type of Protestantism.

          • Julie

            I have to add that the Church does allow Biblical Studies where one can express one’s personal interpretation. And then there is orthodox study of Scripture that develops doctrines of fullness of faith in Christ.

            For saying ‘throwing out’ is perhaps to strong a word….but he was seeking assurance for his own salvation…he could not experience God’s love for him when so many Christians, Catholics I mean, experienced His love down through generations. And albeit, the theologian who had jurisdiction over him refused to do his duty in hearing Luther out.

            There was good and bad in both.

          • The Manz

            Scripture is not for “private interpretation.” See 2 Peter 1:19-21. Familiarize yourself with rules of hermeneutics.

          • Julie

            Peter said in his second letter that he and the apostles are witnesses to His divine majesty and we are to follow them.

            Luther was an extremely scrupulous person and lived in terrible times in the Church.

            No…I do not follow Luther…man made interpretations with no accountability…same with personal interpretation.

            I see the fruits of personal interpretation on sites like these…and the condemnation and judgment of Catholics…that is the fruit of bad personal interpretation….man made and based on your way of looking at things and not those who passed down the apostolic tradition of faith…not just the beliefs but the traditions the apostles gave us.

            By 100 AD, the books of Scripture, the liturgy as we know it today in tone, spirit and meaning, the episcopacy, and the foundation of the Creed were all in tact.

            I am staying with Christ’s Church…the chaff will always be with the wheat. If you put your time into the truth of our faith, Word and Sacrament instead of looking at men in their failure and scandal to be true priests, you would not have lost your faith. You look at man too much including personal interpretations of anti Catholic men…and not the Lord.

          • The Manz

            I did not lose my faith. I gained faith. Nor do I follow any man who exalts himself over God. I follow Jesus Christ exclusively. Denominations are under the control of the wicked one. Christ’s church would not have a $400 million dollar observatory on the top of Mt. Graham with a telescope nicknamed “Lucifer.” The papacy has been coronating and deposing “kings” (governments) for centuries upon centuries. She is the harlot riding the beast. You don’t find it appalling that St. Peter’s Basilica sports the “pregnant” dome of Isis as it is built right across from the phallic symbol for Osiris? Can you even explain why the Vatican would want a pagan symbol in proximity of the alleged church of God? BTW, that is the original obelisk that was built in Egypt for the Temple of Ra in Heliopolis. Actually, Rome sports the most obelisks in all the world. Seeing they’re a pagan symbol, I find that odd that they would want to challenge God with pagan icons since it violates the commandments of God. And even more curiously, our nation’s capital is set up in the very same way. Did you know that Washington, D.C., upon settling by the Carroll family in Mary-land 400 years ago, named the D.C. property Rome and called the Potomac the Little Tiber?” The RCC has snowed you over completely. God willing, He will open your eyes.

          • The Manz

            Julie likes to make people think she knows what she’s talking about.

          • headonstraight

            Catholics do NOT follow the Pope except when it is convenient for them to do so. Over 90 percent of U.S. Catholics of child-bearing age use artificial birth control, which is utterly contrary to to Catholic doctrine.

          • Destiny Eldred

            We used to be a Protestant NFP-using couple and it’s a great gift and people should hear more about it and embrace it as an option. I developed some health issues, leading to decisions for a small family, and have learned not to see things so strictly/black and white. Yet, I’m Protestant. I just want people to see grace in the equation.

          • Julie

            Do you follow Natural Family Planning?

          • The Manz

            You are a stupid woman.

          • Julie

            When I read such comments as the numerous ones posted on this thread,it reveals the correct position of our faith and all people can do in response is to abuse.

            America has a long history of hate and bigotry against Catholics, and the sects and cults that perpetuate this….all I can say is we will all be held accountable before God for every single word that comes out of our mouth.

            No priest would get up to preach and make false claims about the Septuagint.

            People come to Catholic Answers to fight and then those who can endure…end up seeing how our position is the right position and how they have been misled by false teachers.

            A false teacher leads you to close mindedness and bigotry…and spiritual immaturity.

          • The Manz

            You sound like Al Sharpton. It’s not bigotry. The RCC is an evil, corrupt institution. Have you studied the history? The greed and reprobate behavior is astonishing. I spent decades in catholicism until God showed me the truth. Vanity Fair did an expose’ on the Jesuits in December 2013. Search for it and read it.

            Watch out how people use openmindedness as a persuasive technique as Jesus’s gate is narrow. The one leading to destruction is wide. Bigotry is a liberal argument Marxists use when they can’t argue the facts or don’t know the facts. Those in a weak position shoot the messenger with ad hominem attacks.

          • Julie

            I am a life long Catholic and a grandmother and came of age at the beginning of the drug and sex revolution. I also know that about 1300 communists allegedly entered the Canadian and American seminaries.

            Likewise…I have known many excellent priests throughout my life.

            And I find your comments as such not based on truth…

            There are anti Catholic men who claimed they were former priests…and nobody except us check to find out they never were.

            Sorry..I have studied over 5 years through my archdiocese and our beliefs are true and our priests are good. 95% of the clergy is good and not pedophiles …and yes…the 20th century was our great trial.

            We are now in great healing and beginning to be restored. Our Church itself was hit by the devil and there was indeed alot of error.

            But I seek the truth and the truth of faith is in the Church..its fullness and not meaning either other Christians don’t have truth…but ours is based on 2000 years of faith and saints…all contributing to our beliefs.

            I just erased my academic credentials.

            and yes…yours definiitely came across as such…condemning without knowing me or my faith.

            Most people leave the faith not because of faith but because of some falling out with a priest.

            Anyway…seeing the comments on this site I am deciding not to participate any more. So I won’t be answering any rebuttals if you think of doing so..

            I could be older than you for all that matter.

          • The Manz

            You think you are in the state of healing after Vatican II? With a Marxist pope? Julie, you are no doubt sincere in your endeavors, but that doesn’t mean you haven’t been deceived. There are many, many decent people snowed by the RCC or better said, The Vatican. Many good people have tried to change the corruption in the Vatican but all have failed. Think of it as how Freemasons operate. The lower initiates know nothing of what is occurring at the top. However, the head rots the whole fish. I am not anti-Catholic. I am anti-deception.

            I apologize for upsetting you but I don’t know how to tell you the truth without it challenging your current sensibilities. I will take leave and pray that God opens your eyes.

          • Martin Gran

            Yes, leave it to the reformers to feel that they had the right to change the word of God by removing books from the Bible.

          • Adriana Renaud
          • headonstraight

            The little bit of tampering with the Biblical text by the “Reformers” pales in comparison with the hugely destructive doctrinal mischief they created with the adoption of the heretical doctrines devised by that servant of Satan, John Calvin. His “reformed” concepts (predestination, effectual calling, perseverance, etc., etc.–the whole TULIP abomination) are a stench in the nostrils of God!

          • DebraBrunsberg

            Well, yea, Calvin was surely a heretic. So was Luther. Pretty much anyone who dismisses Christ’s Church is a heretic. (they just don’t know it)

          • The Manz

            ROLMAO!

          • Lou Pizzuti

            No, Luther didn’t “remove” them. He chose to adhere to the Masoretic text, which doesn’t include them, rather than the Vulgate which does.

          • davend

            Neither the Catholic Bible nor the Protestant Bible follow the Septuagint.

            Since there’s no record of a canon among the Dead Sea Scrolls, one can’t really say what that community found to be canonical, although fragments of Tobit and Ben Sirach were discovered there.

            Luther included all of the Deuterocanonicals in his translation.

          • Julie

            You are contradicting our priest at the altar. We follow the Septuagint…the Lord’s translation. He would not be up there saying as such as he has lay down his total life for the Lord and doesn’t promote lying.

            The Dead Sea Scrolls are providing more leverage to the Septuagint and the Church.

            The Lord does not come to us in dissension and division. Likewise the Reformers had good ideas…but this was during the time of the Borgias and de Medicis…who taught nothing of faith and morals.

          • davend

            Sorry but your priest doesn’t know what he’s talking about. That’s extremely sad. All Catholic Bibles since Divino Afflante Spiritu (Pope Pius XII) use the Hebrew text as their primary source, deferring to the Septuagint ONLY when there’s not a Hebrew source text available or occasionally when the Septuagint seems to provide a better reading.

            Compare the table of contents of a Greek Orthodox Bible (just look on Amazon.com) to a Catholic Bible and you’ll see the difference as to content between the Septuagint and the Catholic Bible. There’s really no way one could say that the Catholic Church “follows the Septuagint.”

            If anything the Dead Sea Scrolls provide further substantiation for the validity for the Hebrew (Masoretic Text). About 75% of the Dead Sea Scrolls follow the Masoretic textual tradition and 25% follow the Septuagint tradition.

          • Julie

            The Catholic Church is the one who assembled the Bible. I don’t know what kind of information you are getting yours from….

            I am reading the opposite and the Catholic interpretation is correct…when looking at the Dead Sea Scrolls…

            It is all about context and every time I read charges, I go further and find out an anti Church protestant is up to the usual protest….sorry

            you have no credibilty.

            I have taken courses by those teaching at our seminaries and the concepts on sites like these you cannot even put a light to and don’t hold up to scholarship.

            We know the Church is a human institution and are not at all threatened by someone who contradicts or does an ‘expose’….our faith and Church go on…

            Our continuity of faith and practice is the same for 2000 years and it will continue on as protestant sects pass away on their on protest and individual way of looking at things..instead of submitting to the Lord and living in His life.