Kirk Cameron, Former Evangelical Pastor Take to TBN to Make Case for Santa Claus

CameronCOSTA MESA, Ca. — Actor and filmmaker Kirk Cameron recently invited a former evangelical pastor to TBN to make the case for Santa Claus as Cameron promotes his new film “Saving Christmas,” which seeks to convince Christians who choose not to celebrate the holiday.

Cameron shared a segment of the interview on his Facebook page on Tuesday, in which he spoke with historian William Federer, a former evangelical minister and political candidate. Sporting the Liberty University logo embroidered on his shirt, Cameron invited Federer to outline the history of Saint Nicholas and other items found in his book “There Really Is a Santa Claus: The History of Saint Nicholas & Christmas Holiday Traditions.”

“You are the Christmas Santa dude!” Cameron said, beaming. “You are the expert to tell us about about the real Santa Claus. … Who is he?”

Federer, a signer of the Manhattan Declaration, an ecumenical document that unites Christians and Catholics to stand together for life and family, then provided background the life of the Turkish bishop Nicholas, who was known to give the poor and inspired the tradition of gift-giving during Christmastime. He explained that after Nicholas died in 343 A.D., his bones were brought to the pope, who built a basilica for his remains, where they are enshrined to this day.

“The Christians moved the bones of St. Nicholas from Myra in Asia Minor over to Bari, Italy in the year 1087 [A.D.],” Federer told Cameron, citing that Muslims were seeking to destroy the bones of the “saints.” “And the pope, Pope Urban II, he builds a cathedral.”

He then explained that gift-giving in the tradition of Nicholas, who had been sainted by the Roman Catholics, soon become so popular among Catholics that it seemed to distract from Jesus, so the icon St. Francis of Assissi (after whom the current pope is named) created the creche, also known as the modern nativity scene.

“And so St. Francis of Assissi said, ‘Look, all this gift-giving is fine, but it’s a distraction from the real reason for the season,’ and so St. Francis of Assissi invented the creche scene—the nativity scene,” Federer outlined. “So, that goes back to the 1200’s and St. Francis of Assissi.”

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“Wow,” Cameron replied in awe.

Federer explained that once the holiday hit Germany, the protestant reformer Martin Luther—a former Roman Catholic monk—did away with the saints days, but the people of Germany liked the gift-giving too much to give up the tradition. And so it continued.

St. Nicholas, as painted on the Kizhi monastery in Russia.
St. Nicholas, as painted on the Kizhi monastery in Russia.

Other Roman Catholic writings confirm Federer’s teachings to Cameron as being accurate.

“In 1087, …  Italian merchants obtained the relics of Saint Nicholas, which had been held in a church at Myra, and brought them to the city of Bari, in southern Italy. There, the relics were placed in a great basilica consecrated by Pope Urban II, where they have remained,” writes Catholicism expert Scott Richert. “By the late Middle Ages, Catholics in Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands had begun to celebrate his feast day by giving small gifts to young children. On December 5, the children would leave their shoes by the fireplace, and the next morning, they would find small toys and coins in them.”

He also notes that Nicholas was sainted because of the miracles that the Roman Catholic Church claimed that he performed following his death—and still allegedly performs to this day through a myrrh that is purportedly exuded from his tomb to heal sick bodies.

“Saint Nicholas is called [the] ‘Wonder-Worker’ because of the number of miracles attributed to him, particularly after his death,” Richert outlined, who also posted two prayers offered by some to St. Nicholas. “Glorious St. Nicholas, my special patron, from thy throne in glory, where thou dost enjoy the presence of God, turn thine eyes in pity upon me and obtain for me from our Lord the graces and helps that I need…”

“Devotion to St. Nicholas was known in the West long before his relics were brought to Italy, but this happening naturally greatly increased his veneration among the people, and miracles were as freely attributed to his intercession in Europe as they had been in Asia,” Catholic Online likewise explains.”At Myra ‘the venerable body of the bishop, embalmed as it was in the good ointments of virtue exuded a sweet smelling myrrh, which kept it from corruption and proved a health giving remedy against sickness to the glory o f him who had glorified Jesus Christ, our true God.’ The translation of the relics did not interrupt this phenomenon, and the ‘manna of St. Nicholas’ is said to flow to this day.”

Cameron had cited St. Nicholas in his new film “Saving Christmas” as one of the reasons why Christians who abstain from the holiday should really find reason for rejoicing since he believed Nicholas was a strong Christian man. During a recent speech before hundreds of students at Liberty University, as Cameron has been making the rounds to various venues as a “Christmas evangelist” of sorts, Cameron likewise made his case for St. Nicholas as being a Christian man of faith and defended the holiday’s traditions.

“[T]hey even ‘sainted’ him—that’s why we call him St. Nicholas,” he said. “He became legendary in his time and beyond his time. He became larger than life and reached mythic proportions.”

“So the guy that many of us think is distracting from the birth of the Christ child, is really the defender of the faith you and I want to be,” Cameron asserted. “So now that you know who the real Santa Claus is, you want to take a picture with him at the mall this Christmas? I do.”

As previously reported, Cameron made similar assertions that past October when he told the Christian Post that Christians should throw the “biggest party on the block” for Halloween, since the holiday really harkens back to All Saints Day.

“If you go back to old church calendars, especially Catholic calendars, they recognize the holiday All Saints Day, with All Hallows Eve the day before, when they would remember the dead,” he said. “That’s all tied to Halloween.”

Gendron
Gendron

But some are expressing concern over Cameron’s lack of distinction between Roman Catholicism and Christianity. Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries in Plano, Texas told Christian News Network that the interview should have been eye-opening for Cameron.

“Clearly, Cameron chooses to embrace Roman Catholicism as a valid expression of Christianity instead of embracing the exclusivity of God’s gospel,” he said.

“It was clear during the interview that Kirk was more interested in promoting his movie than contending for the faith of the apostles,” Gendron continued. “When Federer cited the pope building a cathedral for the remains of St. Nicholas, Cameron had an open door to expose Catholicism’s unfruitful deeds of darkness (Eph. 5:11). He could have asked Federer why Catholic popes steal titles given to the triune God such as Holy Father, Head of the Church and Vicar of Christ. When Federer mentioned Martin Luther, Cameron could have asked about Luther’s commitment to the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone according to Scripture alone for the glory of God alone.”

The former Roman Catholic-turned-evangelist who trains others how to witness to Catholics said that Cameron may not understand that he is being pulled into seeing Roman Catholicism as just another branch of Christianity—and is influencing others to think likewise.

“The Vatican’s strategy for world dominion is to use influential people like Cameron to bring separated brethren back home to Rome,” Gendron stated. “His compromise of the gospel and his unwillingness to expose Catholicism as an apostate religion reveals his unfaithfulness to God and His word. The Bible is our only safeguard against fatal error. ( Acts 17: 11; I John 4: 1)”

 


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  • James Grimes

    Be careful, Kirk. You are on dangerous ground.

    • pax2u

      next someone will say Merry ChristMASS, oh noes, let the war on Christmas begin!

    • James Grimes

      I’m trying to figure out what this comment means, “next someone will say Merry ChristMASS, oh noes, let the war on Christmas begin!” Does anyone have a clue?

  • Neiman

    Kirk has gone out of the way, he is prostituting Christ to the false, end time, apostate Roman Catholic Church. Saint indeed? Where in Scripture are we told that any person can be elevated by any human being or organization to a special level of saint? Where is it said that any person, other than Jesus, having left this life and allegedly gone into Heaven like this Nicholas fellow, can from there work miracles on earth?

    The author of this article is right, Kirk could have used this occasion to expose the false Church of Rome and their many lies, but he is so determined to elevate Santa Claus as the reason for the season, he is blind to the harm his is causing.

    Pray for Kirk!

    • Gwamma

      We are all saints according to the scriptures.

      • Frank

        Yes!!

    • pax2u

      well at least you do not attack the Catholic Church
      what is the Church of Rome? the Vatican is an enclave surrounded by Rome,

      • Neiman

        I weary of you playing childish games all the time. Unless you are a complete moron, you know that there are other organizations that believe they are of the Catholic faith, like the Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox churches. You also know, that the church of Rome refers to the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, it is good that you know that the Vatican is in the heart of Rome, which sits upon seven Hills and wherein God tells us the false prophet of the last days will sit.

        • pax2u

          how very Christian of you, I am sure that your protest of the Christian Nativity scene in the town square will show the world how to fight against Christmas

          • Neiman

            Your many emotional problems are being made more manifest. Now we see that you have attention deficit disorder, as my reply to you above did not involve any protests of the Nativity at all. You my friend, are in serious need of help. Your persecution and martyrdom complexes, your habitual or pathological lying and your attention deficit disorder represent a very serious mental handicap on your part.

          • pax2u

            I will pray for you

          • Neiman

            I have a better idea. Ask God to help you with your persecution and martyrdom complexes, your habitual or pathological lying and your attention deficit disorder? Then, maybe you can engage in more productive conversations with others.

          • pax2u

            please pray for me as I will pray for you

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            How many you’s are crammed into that paragraph? It is entirely predictable when and why you will resort to tu quoque attacks rather than deal with arguments.

          • James Grimes

            You have more patience with this clown than I do. In spite of me asking him not to respond to any of my comments, he insists on doing so with the same nonsense that you see here. I wish there was a delete button for nuisances like him.

          • Neiman

            Pray for me, I know I invest too much time with him. If you only knew how many replies and attacks I get here daily, often from divisive, strife making egoists, I get really tired of them.

          • James Grimes

            It comes with the territory. True believers are most susceptible to attacks by Atheists, pseudo-Christians, and nut cases. Unfortunately, this forum brings all of them out/

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          That is, if one believes Dispensationalism is the only valid Christian eschatology, and freely associates the seven hills of Rome with what is described in Revelation because of anti-Catholic ideological commitments.

    • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

      Hmm. You need to finish your history homework. Catholic means Universal, and was in use in the Third Century by Christians to refer to themselves and their faith. If you bothered to read the works of the early Church Fathers, you might find that your particular form of Christian practice decried as heresy. I suggest you start with Wikipedia.

  • HeavenlyBeing

    First of all, Christmas is not even in the Bible. Although I went to Evangelical Churches all of my life, as a young 20 something mother back in the 70’s… I could see that.

    How do you lie to your children and tell them that Christmas is when Christ was born (no one knows that) and then gorge on food and go into debt to give materialistic gifts (many of those gifts lead the receivers away from God, and then to add insult to injury, we teach our Children to bow down to and sit in the lap of a “False God” who if they were good enough the last year, and if they leave the God of Santa an “Offering” of cookies and milk,

    magically their God will give them gifts. 7-8 years later you are trying to explain to the child that you really did not LIE to them… and you can’t figure out why they are so upset.

    Then they are told “God and Jesus are really real, we did not lie about that, but Santa was just a fairytale! The Bible says “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. James 1:17, not from a “man made” idol called Santa.

    • Neiman

      I gave you an up vote, but I don’t think it a sin to celebrate Jesus birth, even if the date is wrong and if gifts are given to demonstrate the spiritual gift of giving and Jesus is the center of one’s celebrations, it is not a sin.

      • pax2u

        do you also protest Nativity Scenes in the town square as pagan?

        • Neiman

          Well, they are graven images. While we are no longer under the law, graven images are still idolatrous. On the other hand, I would rather have them then Santa Claus or Frosty the Snowman, as at least the Nativity scene would put some focus back on Christ.

          • pax2u

            is Kirk Cameron still a Christian?

          • Neiman

            My goodness, your attention deficit disorder is out of control. My reply to you above said nothing about Kirk Cameron. I will answer your question, but considering your crippling ADD, I doubt you will remember what I say for more than a few seconds.

            I have always admired Kirk even risking his career to stand up for his faith in Jesus and I have no reason to believe he is not a Christian, as I believe once saved – always saved. Nonetheless, like any Christian he can be deceived about certain matters and be guilty of gross error and still be for the most part a decent Christian man.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            They are only “graven images” if one presupposes a strict aniconic and even iconoclastic interpretation of Scripture.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Could not agree more! And, the first gifts we should give is thanks to our Lord Jesus, Bibles to those who do not have them, the Gospel to the nations of the world, and to missionaries to spread the seeds, IMO.

      • Frank

        It’s not what goes into the body but what comes out of it that makes a person unclean. Some think an idol is something but it is really nothing, it is not a god. To each one whether they eat or drink or have one day as holy unto the Lord, to Him alone do they keep the day to honor Him. But the tricky part comes in when those who have a weak conscience see a person eat at a temple that knows the truth is emboldened but sins because of their lack of faith causes that person to sin. But in the case of Christmas it is so pervasive that at this point does God really hold a person accountable in that regards. But in how they celebrate it sure, of course He does.

        • Neiman

          Well that is really the point isn’t it? This season of the year has so long been established as the time to celebrate the birth of Christ, even though we will not find biblical justification for such a celebration. Nonetheless, because it is so pervasive, if we can just get Christians to focus on the birth of their Savior and teach that to their children; and, get their children to get their eyes off of Santa Claus and all the other nonsense, teaching them that the gift of giving is something to be desired versus getting things, we can turn it into something positive.

          • Frank

            Yes in a similiar vein when God used Paul to proclaim the Unknown God. Though Kirk is off the reservation in what he did.

          • Neiman

            Yes, sadly Kirk is involved in some very serious errors in his life, but we can pray and trust God that He will help our Christian brother to see the error of his ways and get back on track. Absent any proof that he is not a Christian, let us love him like a brother and pray for him sincerely.

          • Frank

            I am not led to say either way but he seems to be fastly approaching the way of a false teacher or apostate fallen Christian. He certainly is embracing apostate teachings. I have felt to reserve strong words in his case for a season. How long remains to be seen. I desire he repents.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is interesting how you give Cameron a free pass despite his “serious errors.” He still retains his True Christian™ card while those evil Catholics are relegated to paganism and non-Christianity.

          • Neiman

            Why is it that you have to, being charitable, say things all the time that you know to be false?

            First, the term true Christian is not trademarked.

            I have never called individual Catholics evil and have in fact asserted many times that those Catholics that have come to salvation based on God’s grace alone, by faith alone – his faith, in Christ alone; and, do not look to the Roman Catholic Church or any of its rituals for their salvation, must in charity be considered brothers and sisters in Christ, albeit knowing their faith has been corrupted two varying degrees by the false teachings of the Catholic Church.

            I never relegated individual Catholics to paganism, I stated the absolute truth, that by the wicked conspiracy of the Roman Catholic Church and the Emperor of Rome, many pagan practices were mixed in with the Christian faith, with the false idea that they could trick pagans into becoming Christians while still maintaining their pagan practices.

            In charity, as Kirk has long stood against the Devils playground in Hollywood, by openly declaring his faith in Jesus, absent evidence to the contrary, we Christians should embrace him as a brother in Christ and pray that the Lord will show him the error of his ways. The same, I might add, charity that I do and we all should show to any Catholics that come to salvation in the way I mentioned above. Neither in Kirk’s case or in the case of these individual Catholics, should we shy away from opposing their personal spiritual errors or the false teachings of their church, in charity.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “Why is it that you have to, being charitable, say things all the time that you know to be false?”

            ➨ That is not what I have done nor what I do. Many people, including you, are so cryptic in some of their replies that their real views have to be steadily drawn out from the midst of all the rhetoric and prooftexting.

            Neiman: “First, the term true Christian is not trademarked.”

            ➨ Although I think you know, this is not the reason why I do this. I put the trademark sign there to indicate how silly it is to go on and on about “true Christians” when it amounts to nothing but flogging the No True Scotsman fallacy. Ironically “true Christians” always turn out to be those people who seem to agree with or support the person using the term.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “I never relegated individual Catholics to paganism”

            ➨ No, you have waffled back and forth between implicating Catholics with paganism if they dare defend certain beliefs that you do not like, and asserting damage control when someone points out this attempt at character assassination.

            Neiman: “I stated the absolute truth, that by the wicked conspiracy of the Roman Catholic Church and the Emperor of Rome, many pagan practices were mixed in with the Christian faith, with the false idea that they could trick pagans into becoming Christians while still maintaining their pagan practices.”

            ➨ And, as I have pointed out to you a million times before, this abuse of history amounts to nothing but wild-eyed conspiracy theory and connect-the-dots Parallelomania, all in the attempt to demonize what you don’t like.

          • Neiman

            I have never waffled back and forth! You are unable to differentiate between individual Catholics and the Roman Catholic Church. That is your problem and not mind.

            What I have written about the conspiracy between the Roman Emperor and the early Roman Catholic Church to introduce pagan rituals into the word of God, is historically accurate.

            If you don’t like it too bad.

          • pax2u

            I do not hate you, just every thing you believe and stand for,
            nothing personal

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, you have not produced any hard evidence of such a conspiracy ever existing. Rather, you have name-dropped Constantine in association with Roman Catholicism and acted like there was a definite link to some kind of grand pagan conspiracy theory.

          • Neiman

            For the first 280 years of Christian
            history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians
            were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the
            Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration
            with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on
            Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea
            in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity
            as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was
            beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a
            positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything
            but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the
            Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices,
            so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true
            Christianity and Roman paganism.

            Constantine found that, with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive,
            and diverse, not everyone would agree to forsake his or her religious
            beliefs to embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even
            promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and
            utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some
            clear examples of this are as follows:

            (1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed
            into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that
            were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and theotokos
            (“God-bearer”) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in
            the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in
            order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise
            embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples
            dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in
            the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened
            to be the focal point of Isis worship.

            (2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th
            centuries AD. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among
            Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors.
            While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman Empire,
            it was the de facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding
            Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity. One of the key
            features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the
            flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism,
            was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed,
            granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (this is
            known as theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven
            “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman
            Catholicism too many to ignore. Church leaders after Constantine found
            an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in the concept
            of the Lord’s Supper/Christian communion. Even before Constantine, some
            early Christians had begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper,
            rejecting the biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of
            Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper
            made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now
            known as the Catholic Mass/Eucharist, complete.

            (3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is
            one who believes in the existence of many gods, but focuses primarily
            on one particular god or considers one particular god supreme over the
            other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme over the
            Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune,
            the god of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman
            paganism, it simply replaced the pantheon of gods with the saints. Just
            as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god
            of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church
            has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other
            categories. Just as many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so
            the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for the cities.

            (4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the
            support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of
            government for the Roman Empire, and with the Roman emperors living in
            Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life.
            Constantine and his successors gave their support to the bishop of Rome
            as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course, it is best for the unity
            of the Roman Empire that the government and state religion be
            centralized. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea
            of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to
            supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When
            the Roman Empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had
            previously belonged to the Roman emperors—Pontifex Maximus.

            Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in
            demonstrating the origin of the Catholic Church. Of course, the Roman
            Catholic Church denies the pagan origin of its beliefs and practices.
            The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of
            complicated theology and “church tradition.” Recognizing that many of
            its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic
            Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

            The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of
            Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of
            proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church
            “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By
            blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic
            Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman Empire. One
            result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the
            Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant
            form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ
            and the true proclamation of God’s Word.

            Second Timothy 4:3–4
            declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound
            doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around
            them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to
            hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to
            myths.”

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html#ixzz3LeGq2XDl

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            tl;dr. As I said before, you need to explain your understanding of the issues and the reasons why you hold your positions. Cutting and pasting huge walls of text from an apologetics site does nothing towards helping your cause.

          • Neiman

            So you admit you cannot refute those facts.

            If I copy/paste Scripture, it is the same thing.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, I admit nothing of the sort. The pasted wall of text does nothing towards establishing YOUR understanding of the issues and the reasoning behind the positions you hold. It is the equivalent of a freshman college student plagiarizing Wikipedia and expecting the professor to accept it and let him get away with it.

          • Neiman

            Yeah sure. You know you cannot answer and refute this article.

            As I told you I get far too many replies and I do not have the time and energy to answer them all and there is nothing dishonest about using the work of others that essentially provide my answers and save me effort. Your cowardice and raging ego notwithstanding.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Stop spamming the comments section with pasted walls of text if you do not have the time and energy to put your own original thought into it.

          • Neiman

            I don’t take orders from you your majesty.
            The truth is the truth, no matter the source.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is neither here nor there since it deflects from addressing the problem I mentioned.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Your sources are corrupted, and so the information you plaster so voluminously is in error.

            I agree that Truth is Truth, but your truth …
            Right back at you!

          • jcrosby35

            I suggest your show what is corrupted and how it is corrupted.
            And post your sources to prove corruption. If in fact there is corruption. It very well could be your opinion is corrupted.
            Your opinion is yours and proves nothing.

          • ME

            “Truth is truth, no matter the source”? Hmmm… Truth is truth yes, but when determining what is truly the Truth, there is a lot to be said for the authority. That is demonstrated right in the bible. (Mark 1:22). I’ll trust the authority of the Church as given by Jesus to his apostles and given to Peter the first pope and handed down with the Keys to the Kingdom over the centuries in the Catholic Church any day, over the authority of some random website on the internet with a fallible interpretation of the bible given in with an “air of infallibility”. Protestants claim all the time that no one can be infallible, which means that we can not trust any one’s interpretation of the bible to be correct. The church has been protected by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years with an unwavering commitment to handing on the Truth as taught by Jesus Christ and Jesus didn’t lie to us when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

          • Neiman

            You sound very passionate and sincere. You sound incredibly dedicated to the Roman Catholic Church and your long line of Popes. Absent a miracle of God to open your heart to the truth, I have no doubt that you will never waiver from these beliefs.

            I would be very happy for you if there was any truth to the idea that the Catholic Church had been around for 2000 years, but that is simply not true. The word to Catholic only meant “universal” until it was hijacked by a few power mad bishops in Rome 350 – 500 years after the resurrection of Christ. There is absolutely no evidence in Scripture of any apostolic succession, there is absolutely no scriptural support for the idea that Peter was considered the chief apostle during his lifetime. There is no objective, documentary evidence that Peter was ever in Rome or ever held the position of Pope. Scripture does show that Peter was anointed by the Lord to open the gospel of salvation, which is that keys to the kingdom, to the Jews, to the Samaritans and to the Gentiles. But it is also true that the apostle Paul, Philip, and all the other apostles and disciples of Christ used those same keys, to bring the gospel of salvation to the rest of the world, while Peter’s travels were quite limited and by his own admission and the words of the apostle Paul, he primarily ministered to the Jews the rest of his life.

            As to divine Truth, while we can benefit from the wisdom of Holy Spirit anointed ministers, for any true believer, the Holy Spirit indwells them and Scripture tells us that He is our comforter, teacher and guide. This is the spirit of Christ living in you. Jesus is the Truth, and if he lives in you by his Spirit, and Jesus says that only by his spirit, not by any man, can you discern truth from error. But, if you choose to trust the Roman Catholic Church in the Pope and various priests more than you do the spirit of Christ living in you, that is your free will choice. If you are a true believer, you have direct access to God the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, why would you trust men more than God?

            Anyway is up to you, but I think is terribly sad that you would claim to be a Christian, but not trust Christ to lead you into all truth and protect you from error; and, would prefer to trust some man-made ecclesiastical organization, some men in black robes and the Pope more than Jesus.

          • ME

            You say there is no objective evidence of the Primacy of Peter? How about the scriptural support found in Isaiah 22. Have you read this chapter? Isaiah 22:21,22 shows Eliakim given the position of Prime Minister in the Kingdom of David. “and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your belt on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder they key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.” Now look at Matthew 16:18-19 “and I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Jesus deliberately paralleled the scripture from Isaiah when he was giving this position of Authority to Peter. The other Apostles looked to Peter as the authority to make the decisions about practices such as circumcision of the Gentiles. The authority of the position was understood at that time. The keys are handed on in succession in the Apostolic tradition, just as they were in David’s kingdom. It seems you have trust, authority and obedience issues. Jesus tells us many times in many ways that obedience is very important. In order to be obedient, one needs to submit themselves to the authority of another. You say I don’t trust the Holy Spirit. I trust the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth. But you know what, the Holy Spirit uses a lot of people other than myself to show me the truth. I can’t read Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek to be able to read the original texts. Therefore, I must trust those that have translated them into the bible I have today. I don’t intend to become a scripture scholar as I have read enough to understand what the early Church fathers were discussing and you know what, that all lines up with what the Catholic church teaches today. Jesus didn’t come to earth to hand us a bible, so I have to trust the Catholic bishops who determined the canon of scriptures that make up the New Testament. By accepting the new Testament, you’re already trusting the authority of the Church that declared those books the inspired books. So you’re on your way to fully trusting the church, if you open your heart and your eyes to see that there is more to following the Holy Spirit than only following your own beliefs. Please remember that we are to conform our lives to Christ, we’re not to have Christ conform to our lives. God bless you on your journey. I can see you are also very passionate in your search for the truth, but please open your heart to allow God to reach you. You might be surprised where the messages from the Holy Spirit lead you and who those messages come through.

          • Neiman

            It is most unfortunate that the Roman Catholic Church under the leadership of a succession of false prophets calling themselves Pope, that they have so twisted God’s Word to deliberately deny Christ the glory and power and honor that is His alone. It makes me angry, a righteous anger, that these men have tried to deceive man with their twisting of God’s Word.

            These passages in Isaiah were not about Peter or him being appointed Prime Minister, they were prophetic passages about my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ:

            Isaiah 22:20-22
            And it shall come to pass in that day
            At the same time that Shebna was deposed from his high station: that I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah; whom Kimchi thinks was the same with Azariah the son of Hilkiah, who might have two names, and was a ruler over the house of God in the times of Hezekiah, ( 1 Chronicles 6:13 ) ( 2 Chronicles 31:13) this man, by the character given him, was a good man, a faithful, diligent, and constant servant of the Lord, and therefore he delighted to raise him to great honour and dignity: he did not seek great things for himself, nor did he thrust himself into the office, but the Lord called him to it in his providence, and put him into it; he did, as Kimchi observes, put it into the heart of Hezekiah to appoint him governor in the room of Shebna. This man was a type of Christ; his name agrees with him which signifies, “my God will raise up”; that is, the dead by him, ( 1 Corinthians 6:14 ) and so does the character of a servant, frequently given to Christ in this book; see ( Isaiah 42:1 ) ( 49:3 ) ( 53:11 ) nor did Christ take any office to himself, but was called unto it by his Father, (Hebrews 5:4 Hebrews 5:5 ).

            And I will clothe him with thy robe
            The same he wore, or rather one like unto it, which was a badge and token of his office. If he was a priest, as the Jews say, this was his priestly robe,by which the high priest was distinguished from others; but he rather seems to be a civil officer, who wore a garment suitable to it, and distinctive of it; in which he was a type of Christ, invested with the priestly, or rather with the kingly office, crowned with glory and honour; and who is seen among his churches, clothed with a garment down to the feet, ( Revelation 1:13 ) :

            and strengthen him with thy girdle:
            “which was a symbol both of power and of strength; both priests and princes had their girdles. Christ’s girdle, in the administration of hisoffice, is faithfulness and righteousness, ( Isaiah 11:5 ) ;

            and I will commit thy government into his hand;
            the government of the king’s house, typical of the government of the church, put into the hands of Christ by his Father, ( Isaiah 9:6 Isaiah 9:7 ) ( John 5:22 John 5:23 ) :

            and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah;
            have a fatherly care over them, and affection for them; and such an oneis Christ, who stands in the relation of the everlasting Father to his church and people, and of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named; he provides for them, takes care of them, is tenderly affected towards them, pities and sympathizes with them, and affords them all supply and support. Kimchi interprets it of a faithful counsellor, and a good leader.

            And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his
            shoulder

            In allusion either to magistrates carrying a key on their shoulder, hanging down from thence, having a hook at one end of it fit for that purpose; or having one embroidered on that part of their garment: or onecarried before them by their servants. It regards either the keys of the temple; or rather the key of the king’s house, which it was proper should be delivered to him as treasurer and steward of it;

            “and I will give the key of the house of the sanctuary, and the government of the house of David, into his hand.”

            In the mystical sense, Christ is said to have this key, ( Revelation 3:7 ) where the following words are applied to him:

            so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open;
            all which is expressive of the government of the church being on his shoulders, and of his absolute and uncontrollable power over it; who opens the treasures of his word, of his grace, and of wisdom and knowledge, and communicates them unto, and shuts or hides them from, whom he pleases; who opens and shuts the doors of his church, his house, and lets in, and keeps out, whom he thinks fit; and who also opens and shuts the door of the kingdom of heaven, and introduces into it his own people, and excludes others.

            This is about Jesus, too many of these words can apply only to Christ.

            The Catholic Church wants to deny Jesus His role as absolute Lord. Yes, Jesus symbolically said to Peter and the other Apostles that they were going to use these keys, this divine truth, the Gospel of salvation, to open the Gospel to the world. Peter, did use them in opening the Gospel to the Jews, the Samaritans and the Gentiles, Paul, Philip, John and the other apostles used them to spread the Gospel. Peter had a very limited ministry of the Gospel compared to Paul, Paul was called to the whole world.

            Belief in Jesus suffering and resurrection are the keys to the Kingdom, the only way of entrance into Heaven, they open the door to eternal life. Every true minister of the Gospel have been anointed to use those keys to to bring souls into God’s Church, the Body of Christ. To Jesus is all the glory!

          • pax2u

            you should cite biblestudytools.com for your long cut and pastes

          • pax2u

            Blessings to you for you strength with this one,

            He becomes upset when his hatred of the Catholic Church is not blindly adhered to,

            of course he has no denominational doctrine, and a theology of hating the Catholic Church, which he calls anti Christ

            he is not pro Christ, just anti Catholic

          • ME

            Trust issues are difficult to overcome. Nieman will be in my prayers today it’s not about his anger towards me. Somewhere along the way, he has been led in a direction that has not worked out well for him in some area of his life. I won’t hold it against him. I’d love for him to see the benefits of the sacraments that Jesus gave for us to help with healing in our lives, but no one can make the choice for him. Perhaps someday someone will get through to him, but it can only happen if he is willing to trust. Jesus knows what he needs, and it’s his job to worry about. If he refuses to listen, it’s no onus who have tried. Rather, we can only pray. 🙂 it is such a beautiful morning of Advent and a great day to thank The Lord for all he has given me this day and always. God bless you as you prepare for the Christmas season.

          • pax2u

            your post was very well stated, God is Love, and as Christians we are commanded to forgive

            I will also pray for him

          • MarcAlcan

            The truth is the truth, no matter the source.

            It’s only the truth to those who buy fabrications.
            So let me humour you and ask you just one item this time and once that is resolved when go to the next lie in your post.
            You claimed: Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity
            1) What was the reason for the disunity in Christianity?
            2) What were the issues? Why was it necessary to call this council?
            2) What came out of the council?
            3) Was it good that this council was called?
            4) If the council was not called and the issues not resolved, what do you think the world would believe today about Jesus?
            5) What emerged out of this council that is so pivotal to how we understand Christianity today?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What do you mean by my “raging ego?” You keep denigrating what you perceive to be my intellectual and educational levels even though I have not appealed to either one in my discussions with you.

          • MarcAlcan

            So you admit you cannot refute those facts.

            They are facts only in some lying Protestant’s fevered imagination.
            Goodness, these lies have been exposed for what they are for a long time now and yet you are still recycling them?
            Are you all really that desperate?

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            And there is a lot of ‘revisionist history’ in what you have cited here, Neiman.

            1. Mary has no connection to Isis, the Egyptian goddess or the current political nemesis. She is the answer to Eve, and was foreshadowed by Queen Esther.
            2. The cult of Mithra was not as big a deal as you seem to find it. It was focused east of the Mediterranean cultures, an expression of the much older Persian culture of Zoroastrianism, and survives among the persecuted Yazidi people of Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq and Turkey. The cult of Mithra was heavily romanticized with the rise of Spiritualism.
            3. Catholic Saints were, and are, real live genuine people, who do perform the miracles written in the Acts of the Apostles. These miracles are documented and recorded to be used as proof of holiness, and not intended to be money-making endeavours. Attempting to compare Athena, goddess of wisdom to St. Katharine Drexel is nonsense.
            4. When Constantine agreed that Christianity would be the preferred state religion, he was in the process of moving his entire court to — wait for it — Constantinople!!!

            Neiman, you really need to read up on some of the Church Fathers of the first three centuries. You are missing so much!

          • jcrosby35

            If you are going to use history to prove a point then post your sources. Not your opinion.

          • pax2u

            like you post from the Herbert W Armstrong’s church?

          • MarcAlcan

            If you are going to use history to prove a point then post your sources. Not your opinion

            What makes you think that what Marie wrote is opihion.
            What Nieman wrote was fabrication with some facts interspersed in between, which makes it believes but makes a much more potent lie.
            As I have said over and over again, the devil is the father of lies and Protestants seems to like concocting them to discredit the Church that Jesus established.

          • jcrosby35

            I cannot speak for others. What I post is backed with scripture. What you have posted is vague at the best and condemning without sources.

          • MarcAlcan

            What is vague about the statement that the devil is the father of lies?
            What Neiman has written is lies and I have decided to take his points up one at a time.
            Posting scripture texts is not debating. The debate is about how one understands these texts. So drowning your post in scripture texts means nothing if they are irrelevant to the discussion point.

            First you have to understand the text and it must be in context.
            Then you have to explain how you understand the text.

          • jcrosby35

            Posting scripture is not so much for debate as it is to confirm a point of view. If you have a problem with Neiman then take it to Neiman.
            Have a good day.

          • MarcAlcan

            What I have written about the conspiracy between the Roman Emperor and the early Roman Catholic Church to introduce pagan rituals into the word of God,…..Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word.

            Wow, what profound falsehood.
            Is this what Protestantism has been reduced to? Manufacturing lies. I bet you whoever wrote that article got it from Loraine Boettner the liar.
            How sad that you have been imbibing this and think this is milk when it is in fact poison.

          • Neiman

            I have no idea who that person is – so you have falsely accused me.

            Listing all the reasons I believe the Roman Catholic Church and especially this current Pope is Apostate would only cause you anger, offend you and there is nothing good to be gained. It is sufficient that I believe the evidence is overwhelming. You are free to support your church and your Pope.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Lorraine Boettner is the author of “Roman Catholicism.” This is a book with over 400 pages but only 12 sources. He knowingly uses proven forgeries, false documents, etc. Unfortunately this book is seen as an authoritative book on Catholicism among a lot of Protestants. It’s even used in many seminaries, which doesn’t make sense because from a purely intellectual integrity standpoint, it doesn’t hold water because it has so few sources. Anyway, because it is large and appears “exhaustive” (although, how can it be with only 12 sources to explain nearly 2000 years of the Catholic Church), many writers will use this book to explain their own anti-Catholic views. Oftentimes, writers will use Boettner’s work but never actually cite Boettner, so unless you’re really willing to dig it’s hard to know if “Roman Catholicism” was the actual source of the information that you’re getting. The saddest part about it is that Lorraine Boettner describes a religion that he made up in his own mind, and not the actual Catholic faith. Sure – he might point to some of our practices, but will leave out the actual meaning, symbolism, Biblical references, etc. So then people read this book and think they know about Catholicism when they are actually learning about a made up conspiracy. My own personal opinion (not based on any actual statistics) is that this book has done more damage to the modern day Body of Christ (to include all Christians) than nearly anything else. Not only that, but this book is responsible for splitting up families.

            I can tell that you are doing a lot of research, based on your posts. If you are curious about the Catholic defense against Boettner’s “Roman Catholicisim,” there is a book that I will happily recommend. You can read it and decide for yourself if you agree with Boettner or the Catholic stance. However, I also completely understand if you’d rather not read it.

          • Neiman

            Thank you for the information on Boettner, as I said I have never heard of him or read his work. I know about sources, citations, attributions, footnotes and endnotes. It is not available outsde my own copy and in one seminary, but, I researched and wrote a 144,000+ word doctoral dissertation on death and dying, which was exhausting, making sure everything was supported, except for many first hand stories, which I simply related and I didn’t offer details that would expose the people involved to having their privacy impacted.

            If I get to the point where I am uncomfortable or unsure of something I have researched and believe, I may get back to you about that other book.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I hope you didn’t feel like I was making any kind of statement about you in my post. If I sounded frustrated at all, it’s only because so many people take his book as such an authority when it has so few references and he knowingly uses forgeries. I’ve heard so many awful stories involving that book, and have experienced the negative impact of it in my own relationships. I’ve noticed that if I say anything against his book, in the most gentle of ways, people become incredibly angry and volatile, in a way that’s uncharacteristic of that person. It’s like a change comes over them. This might be the Pentecostal in me coming out, but there are times I wonder if there is something much darker at work with that book, especially when I see how vehemently people will defend it and how angry they become if someone suggests that Boettner may not be entirely correct. In some circles, his book seems to be held at a level just a hair below the Bible.

            I have no problem with people disagreeing with the beliefs of the Catholic Church, as long as they are examining and disagreeing with the actual beliefs and not just the conspiracies and opinions of some anti-Catholic writer. If a person has an issue with a true belief of the Catholic Church then that is something that they can work out with God. I’m not the Holy Spirit and it’s not my job to try to be the Holy Spirit. However, if someone is perpetuating known lies and falsehoods then I feel the need to make corrections when possible. But I’m not always as kind and charitable as I should be. God definitely has a LOT of work left to do on me but I’m so grateful for His work in my life. I want to ask your forgiveness if I’ve ever been rude to you.

            Anyway, sorry for the long response that ended up becoming a vent more than anything else. I wish you well.

          • Neiman

            No problem.

            I do my own research which starts and ends with God’s Word, as I said I know based on God’s Word what is true and what is false and reject any writings that varying with those beliefs unless they produce solid scriptural evidence which causes me to reexamine those beliefs.

            The key in knowing Divine Truth is that is must begin, stand upon throughout and end with Christ. If it does not, it cannot be truth.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I want to respect your statement, however I’ve seen you post contradictions, proven falsehoods, people’s opinions etc. that contradict other things you’ve said as well as things that contradict Scripture. How can that be so if you are purely basing your beliefs on God’s Word? If the Holy Spirit is leading each individual into all Truth then our individual beliefs should never contradict other parts of Scripture or other beliefs that we hold.

            For myself, I need objective Truth that is independent of me or anyone else. I need to know that something is True regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it, thinks about it, believes it. I need Truth that never contradicts itself.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I am sorry for sounding so critical of you. I didn’t mean to sound that way. I don’t envy your position. I remember how hard it was to sift through all of the different views/interpretations/denominations/beliefs. Even if I found a denomination that I somewhat agreed with, I always found things that I didn’t AND it seemed that there was little consistency in the churches within that denomination. I can tell that you are trying hard to defend your faith and for that I commend you, even if we disagree on so much.

          • Neiman

            To the best of my knowledge, I have posted no contradictions, nor have I posted anything that I have not supported by scripture or said anything false about your church. These things are in the eye of the beholder, not in fact.

            That is a key question. If you are still waiting for when you die to know if you are saved, that means you are not saved now and only the redeemed can have access to the Holy Spirit. God says that without the Holy Spirit you cannot discern spritual truth.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Here is an example: You said that Lord and God were two totally different things in our discussion on Mary as Mother of God.

            I trust Jesus 100% with my salvation. If you have any questions regarding my salvation I will let Him answer on my behalf.

            You are right that we need the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth. It is a Truth that is True no matter what we think, feel, believe, and it is a Truth that never contradicts itself.

          • Neiman

            Where is the contradiction? God is Who He is (Nature), Lord is what He is to Christians (office). To be the mother of God there is no way to get around it, that would absolutely demand that she preexist God and be greater than God. To be the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ regards His flesh and His authority over believers, it does not imply at all that she gave birth to deity – to God, which is impossible. God by definition is self-existing, never having a beginning or ending, so she could not give birth to God, she can have no authority over God, but as a child she did give birth to the human nature of Jesus only.

            The clear implication of Catholic doctrine that no one can know they are saved before they die demands that until saved, they cannot have the Holy Spirit in them and thus cannot discern Truth, that is God’s Word. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” That is not my judging individual Catholics, it is the clear implication of Catholic doctrine wherein Catholics not only cannot know they are saved, but may have to burn in Purgatory for perhaps millions of years to expiate their sins.

            As to Jesus answering for you, either you are born again of His Spirit before you depart this life, or you are not saved. That is Jesus talking through His Word. John 3:7 is an absolute Truth, you must be born again.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I am born again. Very much so. And I was saved, am being saved and will be saved.

            Doesn’t it seem limiting, to say that it is impossible for God to be borne of a woman? I believe that through Jesus, all things are possible. Matthew 19:26

            If the term Lord is referring to God, then Elizabeth was referring to God when she said to Mary “Who am I, that the Mother of my Lord would visit me?” Luke 1:43

            A belief or disbelief in Purgatory does not change it’s existence.

          • Neiman

            Of course, I cannot know whether you have really been born again of the Spirit of Christ or not; or if you even know what that means. But, if true, it would be impossible to believe many of the things taught by the Catholic Church.

            You seem intelligent and even rational most of the time, but I find it incredible that you think a woman born of flesh and blood can give birth to God Who is Eternal and the Creator of all things. God by definition, by His own Word, says he has no beginning and no end, He is outside space and time, He created all things including human beings, which includes Mary; and yet, amazingly you think she can give birth to God, that she can even rise in Heaven to be Almighty God’s Mother, the Queen of Heaven reigning with Christ. I know it is rude but to me that borders on insanity. A human being cannot give birth to God, it absolutely staggers the imagination.

            If you were truly born again, God’s Word says that you are part of His Spiritual Body and that in Spirit, you are already seated with Him in heavenly places, in Spirit you have already entered into eternal life. Yet, you think that a part of Jesus Holy, Perfect, Sinless Body can suffer Purgatory? Do you really think a part of His Holy Body can ever come into Judgment? Do you think you can be born again, then by sin not be born again and then repent and be born again-again? What a pathetic Jesus, we are, if I use that logic, to be part of His Body, Born of His Spirit and yet He will fail us and we will have to suffer millions of years in what can only be described as hell (Purgatory)? Even a small part of His Body in Purgatory? Jesus would be a terrible savior to save us, make us part of His Body and then say, ‘sorry, before you actually gain Heaven, you will have to suffer for perhaps millions of years. I cannot imagine Jesus saying ‘I paid for all your sins, but by penance, various religious works and perhaps purgatory you have to make yourself perfect.’

            I know this sounds rude to you, I apologize, but I just find it all so insane. Believe what you choose, I just find it incredible anyone could believe these things.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            It’s true that it staggers the imagination. What an incredible God we serve! There is so much that He does that is truly unbelievable. The fact that God could come to earth as a Man, Jesus and then die on a cross for our sins. That is unbelievable. The fact that God could breath everything into existence. That is unbelievable. The fact that God could love us so much that He gave His only Begotten Son. That is unbelievable. No wonder a lot of non-Christians think that we are nuts to be Christians! But God is so… I honestly can’t find the proper words to describe Him except to say that I am in awe of His majesty.

            Jesus doesn’t separate from us when we sin. Rather, we separate ourselves from Him when we sin, bit by bit. Jesus is ever faithful to us, loving us and dying for us even while we were yet sinners. We receive His gift of Grace. Yet, every time we sin, we separate ourselves more and more from God until we confess our sins once more and are reunited to Him. Just as the prodigal son chose to leave home, we can choose to leave our Lord through our sin, but He is always drawing us closer to Himself through the work of the Holy Spirit and the second that we turn our hearts back to Him he comes running at full speed to welcome us home.

            Purgatory is not hell. It is entirely different. 1 Co 3:10-15 shows us that we will all be tested as if by fire. That if someone has built a “house of straw” that nearly entirely burns away, they are still able to enter heaven but not before they are fully purified by the Refiner’s Fire, which is the Lord purifying us and making us ready to be in His presence. I honestly can’t wrap my head around it. And to be even more honest, it’s really not a huge focal point of the Catholic Church. It’s something that a lot of Protestants hone in on as the “BIG DISAGREEMENT” but now, as a Catholic, it’s really not a huge point of discussion. Like I said, I trust Jesus 100% with my salvation. Perhaps purgatory will simply be a flash of light and then we’ll be immediately in His presence. I have no idea. What I do know is that God is a God of Perfect Love and Perfect Grace. I am so grateful for His Love, Grace and all of the fruits of His Holy Spirit. I am also grateful for His provision. I know that I can trust that He will move heaven and earth to allow me to be in His presence, and that if that means that I need a “spiritual shower” (purgatory) before I can be with Him than I will gladly go through whatever I need to in order to be with my Lord for eternity.

            Now, I don’t want to call you insane, because I think that’s rude, but I do think it’s curious, the concept of once saved always saved. I once had someone try to witness to me after I became a Catholic. They said “When you get to heaven and God asks you why He should let you in, what will you say?” My answer was that I would simply fall on my face and worship Him and perhaps say “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.” (this is something we pray every week at Mass) Now, which seems a more plausible response to the Creator of the universe? That, or declaring that I prayed the sinner’s prayer once long ago and therefore I have a right to enter heaven?

            What if you’re wrong about once saved always saved?

          • Neiman

            First, God will not ask anyone any questions, that is ridiculous. The Judgment will not be a court of Law, there will be no defenses, no arguments. Then consider, those born again are part of the Body of Christ, already seated with Him in Heaven, so does God then Judge parts of the Body of Christ, will He find sin in Jesus Body?

            If we are born again and in Christ,:

            Romans 8: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

            John 3: “18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

            Of course praying the sinners prayer is likewise ridiculous. That is not the means of salvation.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Okay – I think I’m starting to understand your theology just a little better now, and I can start to see how you got to this understanding. Can you explain a little better how you interpret these verses? I want to be transparent and say that based on other Scriptures in the New Testament, I disagree with the idea of once saved always saved So if you would rather not explain your interpretation because you feel that I might try to debate it, then I can fully respect that and I will simply wish you well. To be honest, I am so fascinated with all of the different denominations/beliefs out there in the Christian community and I want to understand better how people got to these different conclusions. However, I also love a good discussion and love researching my side (as well as the other side when possible) so I have a hard time backing down from a rigorous debate. It’s definitely one of my faults.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also – the passage that you are referring to is a wonderful passage that I wholeheartedly agree with. It also appears just before an excellent support for purgatory. 1 Co 3:10-13

          • Neiman

            Sorry, that passage speaks of ministers and it does not hint of Purgatory at all, but rewards and loss of rewards based on their work for the kingdom. The fire says nothing about some time in Purgatory, but that despite many of his so-called, albeit false ministerial works being burned as if they were stubble, thus escaping hell as in a manner of speaking by the fire of God’s Word.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, but fundamentalists often rhetorically co-opt the Scripture (i.e. “God says that without the Holy Spirit you cannot discern spiritual truth”) on that account to delegitimize those who disagree with their interpretations or question their assumptions. You are using the tactic against another Christian, after all.

          • pax2u

            Neiman to pax2u 2 days ago

            ” when I say you pray to Mary and worship her and give evidence and make an argument, a reply of just no you don’t is not an argument. ”

            so to deny a lie is not an argument? what?

            Neiman refuses to understand the difference between to honor and to worship

          • pax2u

            Neiman wants to play the Martyr that he can attack Catholics as pagan, and anti Christ, but has no denominational doctrine

            he said that he studied at a seminary but is ashamed to name the denomination

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Perhaps he’s running into the same problem that so many people run into. The more that someone speaks out against the Catholic Church the more they are faced with the Truth of it, which can be a bit terrifying when you’ve spent your whole life devoted to being staunchly anti-Catholic. I have to admit that I was definitely scared when I first started looking into Catholicism. I desperately wanted it all to be proven false. Of course now I love the Catholic Church and I can’t imagine not being a Catholic.

          • MarcAlcan

            It is sufficient that I believe the evidence is overwhelming.

            You may not have heard of him but the citations you gave in one way or another borrowed from him. As I said, the protestants are very good at recycling lies like that.

          • pax2u

            thank you for your post, it seems that many of the anti Catholics will cling to any source that endorses their hatred of the Catholic Church no matter how weak or biased

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Have you read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating? He addresses many of the issues with “Roman Catholicism” by Lorraine Boettner. Also, I was listening to Tim Staple’s talk, “Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic” and he talked about a debate he watched between a Protestant and a Fr. Mitch (from EWTN). Staples was still a Protestant at the time and REALLY wanted the Protestant to win the debate but quickly realized that Fr. Mitch was winning by a landslide. That was until the Protestant brought up some supposed quote. (I don’t remember the quote). Fr. Mitch stumbled over that one because he’d never heard the quote. It turns out that it was a false quote and had been proven false, which is why Fr. Mitch had never heard it (since he only studies actual history and not made up history). It’s possible that the Protestant got it from a source like “Roman Catholicism” and didn’t even realize that it was a proven false quote. But that is what makes it so frustrating. People refuse to read Catholic sources, and will only read Protestant takes on Catholicism, not realizing (or maybe they do realize it?) that many of the “facts” they are reading are proven lies! A lot of times the only “Catholic sources” they will respect are the opinions of disgruntled former priests and it turns out that sometimes they were never Catholic priests in the first place. It’s like studying Nuclear Physics by looking to the opinions of anti-Nuclear environmentalists and then calling yourself an expert on Nuclear Physics!

          • pax2u

            I have not read that but respect the writings of Keating

            I am from Illinois and I am a big fan of our small town boy made good, the late ArchBishop Fulton J. Sheen born in
            El Paso Illinois

            “There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
            ― Fulton J. Sheen

          • CrossedtheTiber

            That is one of my favorite quotes of all time.

          • pax2u

            if you have relevant radio in your area you can listen to his old shows at night, here is a link also

            http://www.relevantradio.com/

            here is another quote which I am always amused by

            “Hearing nuns’ confessions is like being stoned to death with popcorn.”
            ― Fulton J. Sheen

          • CrossedtheTiber

            That one made me laugh. 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            It is sufficient that I believe the evidence is overwhelming.

            Said convincingly like a flat-earther.

          • pax2u

            that is a unique statement,

            “It is sufficient that I believe the evidence is overwhelming.”

            it is not important that the evidence is true, it is important that he believes it for it to be true, so evidence that he does not agree with is automatically not true?

          • MarcAlcan

            Well since he has declared himself pope then I suppose he has the right to decree his own dogma.
            In his Church of 1 it goes like this:
            Dogma #1 : What I believe is true is true.

            Dogma #2: If you should think that what I say is false, refer to dogma #1

          • pax2u

            and he congratulates himself on his level of scholarship

            ” I know about sources, citations, attributions, footnotes and endnotes. It is not available outsde my own copy and in one seminary, but, I researched and wrote a 144,000+ word doctoral dissertation on death and dying, which was exhausting, making sure everything was supported,”

            what a hypocrite

          • MarcAlcan

            On that he might be telling the truth.
            But there’s scholarship and there’s scholarship..

          • pax2u

            true, some may consider a Jack Chick hate comic book being a scholastically significant resource

          • pax2u

            there is scholarship and then there is their scholarship

          • pax2u

            Neiman cuts and pastes from the gotquestions website

            it is a self described Protestant, Evangelical, Fundamentalist site

            it President and Founder is S. Michael Houdmann

            Founder of GotQuestions.org, S. Michael Houdmann, claims to have received a “vision” from God “for helping people find answers to their Bible questions through the internet.”

            GotQuestions writes, “The cults, false religions, and other semi-Christian groups have websites as well. Some of these sites perform much the same function that we do. The answers these sites provide are often very unbiblical and lead searching people down a false path – potentially to their own spiritual destruction.”

            There is no doubt whatsoever that cults, false religions, and “semi-Christian” groups perform much the same function as GotQuestions – preaching a false gospel, misrepresenting Jesus Christ and His will. There is also no doubt that GotQuestions would condemn our site, as we condemn GotQuestions’ work. The differences are that 1) we are of God and 2) this will be demonstrated, for God will make manifest who is the false one. God is finished winking at the sweet works of Satan that destroy in comely ways. See The Lovely Essence of Satan and The Nature of Deception.

            here is a link from a site that does not have much positive to say about Houdmann or gotquestions, I do not endorse this site but it has a different take on gotquestions

            http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falseteachers/s.michael-houdmann.htm

          • MarcAlcan

            I have visited that site before. It’s not all bad. He has some articles there on the OT that are quite good and in line with Church teaching.
            But then again, one needs to know what is good and what is bad to be able to discern the soundness of the articles.

            Nieman needs to study more. He just has no idea of the beauty that is waiting for him when he takes off his blinkers.

          • MarcAlcan

            What I have written about the conspiracy between the Roman Emperor and the early Roman Catholic Church to introduce pagan rituals into the word of God,

            Is a by product of your abject ignorance and can be remedied with better education. In this day and age of the information highway there just is NO EXCUSE for such ignorance.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “The same, I might add, charity that I do and we all should show to any Catholics that come to salvation in the way I mentioned above.”

            This confirms what I said originally about your criteria and judgment. Cameron gets a free pass, obviously, because he embraces the same assumptions about soteriology that you do. It does not matter what his “serious errors” are.

            By comparison, Catholics by default are not given the free pass because they do not share the same soteriological assumptions as do you can Cameron. Thus, they will have to become fundamentalist Protestants if they do not want their True Christian® card revoked.

          • Neiman

            I am not to the least degree interested in your opinion on anything, you’re in love with the sound of your own intellect. You are led by a spirit of strife and another spirit of division another is vain disputations, you have absolutely zero interest in the truth.

            There is not, there cannot possibly be, any subject of greater importance than how one obtains salvation. Any sincere Christian must demand from Scripture that they have solid, unshakable ground based solely upon God’s revealed word. Not upon the interpretations a frail, finite man, but only on God’s word. It is not a matter of personal opinion, it is and can only be a matter of “thus saith the Lord.” There is no other way!

            It starts with one very simple and crystal-clear statement from Jesus, when he said “you must be born again!” There is no other truth on the subject. The next step is to ask the Lord, through his Word, to show us what is required to be “born again.” In the book to the Romans, the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul, made it abundantly clear. The way to salvation and thus to be born again, has to be based solely on it being a free gift from God, because no man can ever be good enough, which stabdard demands absolute sinless perfection. We further learn that this gift must be accepted solely by faith and even that faith, is a gift from God. We are then told this faith of and by Christ, involves trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus, Him having paid the full debt, the just punishment we deserve from God for all of our sins, past, present and future. While Scripture has much more to say about this glorious transaction, these passages sum up all that is required for anyone to enter into eternal life in Christ.

            If any person or organization adds anything or deletes anything from this very simple and very clear spiritual transaction, it is an act of the love of God to oppose them. Not to assert any spiritual superiority, not to claim any self – righteousness, it is to hold up God’s holy standard for salvation against error. If you disagree, if you don’t like it, it is not debatable. I am not responsible for how you react nor do I have any need to salve your raging ego. Take it or leave it, I have done my duty to present the truth and oppose error for the sake of every precious soul that might read my words. If it were just my words, I would not dare be so certain; but, I do not even just trust in God’s written word alone, rather I place my trust in the God who inspired those words, I know that he cannot lie.

            I am weary of your nonsense. I am weary of your deliberate misinterpretation of my words and my motives, I am not interested in engaging in vain disputations with you or casting pearls of divine wisdom before swine.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why do you keep whining about what you perceive to be my “intellect?” I have not boasted about my IQ or intellect to you or anyone else. You, however, are not averse to denigrating people by calling them “5 year olds,” “complete morons,” and having “attention deficit disorder” and other mental afflictions.

          • Lindy

            you are a man interpreting the Bible…just like everyone else and you need some help

          • MarcAlcan

            you are a man interpreting the Bible…just like everyone else and you need some help

            Well how dare you imply that he needs help with the Bible when he has declared himself Pope (which is why he hates the Popes) 🙂

          • James Grimes

            “I am weary of your nonsense. I am weary of your deliberate misinterpretation of my words and my motives, I am not interested in engaging in vain disputations with you or casting pearls of divine wisdom before swine.”
            This really applies to many who post here. The nut cases seem to outnumber the Bible-believing Christians here.
            Thanks for your endurance.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why would you consider me a “nut case?” I have not resorted to conspiracy theory, name-calling, or bigoted statements in anything that I have said.

          • James Grimes

            The comment you have quoted was a reply to Neiman. But I have to ask, “Does the shoe fit?” If it does, be careful how you are perceived.

          • MarcAlcan

            Why would you consider me a “nut case?” I have not resorted to conspiracy theory, name-calling, or bigoted statements in anything that I have said

            Because he has run out of arguments. That is always what happens with these Sola Scriptura people They are bound to run out of arguments because of their self-defeating doctrine so when that happens they resort to evasion, excuses, name calling.
            It’s just like when the homosexuals start losing in a debate. They start calling you homophobes and bigots. This is the same tactic that they employ.

          • MarcAlcan

            The nut cases seem to outnumber the Bible-believing Christians here.

            Yes, isn’t that great? The Christ believing Christians outnumber the Bible Alone believing Christians as God intended.

          • MarcAlcan

            There is not, there cannot possibly be, any subject of greater importance than how one obtains salvation.

            Aaah, so you OBTAIN salvation? But to obtain something is to exert one’s effort.

            The next step is to ask the Lord, through his Word, to show us what is required to be “born again.” In the book to the Romans, the Holy Spirit through the apostle Paul, made it abundantly clear.

            So, how is one born again? I thought it was Jesus who explicitly explained how that happens.

          • pax2u

            he believes that he is the only True Christian
            No one can call his denomination evil, pagan, or satanic, or Christian, since he has no denomination

          • MarcAlcan

            he believes that he is the only True Christian

            Everyone has a right to be delusional so let him.

          • pax2u

            he states the the Catholic Church is pagan, a false Church, that Catholics worship Mary and that the Catholic Church is not Christian

            If he is corrected that his statements are false, he becomes hostile and name calls others,

            I think that his opinion of Freedom of Religion is his freedom to hate and lie about Christians, as if that defines his beliefs

            and of course he has no denomination, so no denominational doctrine, and a theology of hating Catholics, he is the poster child of the lunatic fringe anti Catholic

          • MarcAlcan

            Ah so, he is one more pope in the ever increasing number of popes in the protestant denomination.
            He does have a denomination. His. At this stage it is a church of one.

          • pax2u

            he is of the church of his bathroom mirror, and his congregation is looking at him in his mirror

          • MarcAlcan

            And tells his congregation: how wonderful and good looking you are.

          • pax2u

            I am never surprised by the amount of hatred and anger that is displayed by the anti Catholic lunatic fringe

            they never have a denominational doctrine, and are willing to unite with other bigots,

            but every once in a while their actual denomination is exposed, as in Gary who says that he is a Baptist but does not believe that the Baptist Billy Graham is a good Christian since he has worked with several Popes to bring souls to Jesus Christ, but then Gary does not understand what is wrong with the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church protesting at the funerals of Soldiers who died for America

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            *faith alone* is only in the Bible once; and it is not in the Epistle to the Romans.

          • Neiman

            The context justifies that declaration.

            Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
            Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,”
            Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;”
            Rom. 9:30, “What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;”
            Rom. 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”
            Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
            Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus,
            even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by
            faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of
            the Law shall no flesh be justified.”
            Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
            Gal. 3:5-6, “Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”
            Gal. 3:24, “Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.”
            Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”
            Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            The context would be Paul explain to his Jewish audience that works of the Mosaic Law do not save .. faith IS coupled with good deeds.

          • Frank

            absolutely!!! That is exactly what the entire Bible together says.

          • Jeff Varney

            That’s true, Clinton…faith without works is dead.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            In all honesty everyone, common sense can prevail here with faith/works. We really dont need to bring apologetics in the subject. We all know we have to act on our faith, regardless of denomination, once Gods grace moves us. I think its fair to say the Catholic Church blackened her own eye in the 15th century with indulgences, etc, but that was simply the acts of bad Catholics. Doctrine has never allowed for such a thing.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I agree that common sense can prevail but appreciate you bringing in apologetics in your comments above. Do you have any books you recommend? (great job btw!)

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            First and foremost, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.Most non-Catholic Christians would be surprised at what they find in that masterpiece. I would recommend any of Scott Hahn’s books – he covers every *topic* and accusation thrown at Catholics and is an awesome man with biblical typology and salvation history. He is also a convert. For the person who wants a *big read* and by far one the best explanations on justification, Robert Sungenis’s *Not by Faith Alone.* *Coming Soon* by Michael Barber, **Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist* by Brant Pitre, and for the anti-*papal* folks, *Witness to Hope* by George Wiegel and anything by Joseph Ratzinger.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Thanks for the list! Scott Hahn was instrumental in my own journey home to the Catholic Church and the Catechism led my husband home. I’ll definitely add the other books to my reading list. My husband and I have never been as excited to study the Bible as we are now that we’re Catholics. Learning about typology, and seeing how God was truly preparing us for the coming of Jesus throughout the Old Testament (and not just in the obvious prophesies) is amazing! So many things make sense now that never made sense before. Thank you for the book list and for your explanations here. Please keep posting – you definitely have a gift for clearly explaining our faith.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Wow, you just described my journey, lol — typology is key, and beautiful.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I love hearing other people’s stories so if you ever post it somewhere please share the link! It’s funny – Luther’s 95 Thesis was actually the turning point for my husband on his journey home. I’d started researching Catholicism after a friend invited me to the Catholic Bible Study saying “We’re all Christians! Besides, Catholics wrote and compiled the Bible so you know it will be good.” I’d never heard that Catholics were Christians nor that they compiled and wrote the Bible (I should clarify and include Orthodox Christians since they were united at that time). When I brought up the Catholic Church with my husband he just smiled and thought “Well, it should be easy to prove why this is a terrible idea. All I have to do is look at the Reformation!” He started with indulgences and then researched the Catholic Church’s response. Once he realized that they had denounced the German church’s wrong-doings he started reading the Catechism and he was amazed at what he found there. I’ve read parts of the Catechism but not as much as he has. I’m mostly drawn to conversion stories (although for people coming from Protestantism, it’s not really a conversion since we were Christians and still are Christians). Have you heard of Jennifer Fulwiler? She wrote a great book titled “Something Other Than God” which shares her journey from atheism to Catholicism. It’s not an apologetics book but it’s well-written and well-thought.

          • Rosavera

            what a beautiful witness … God bless you and your family…

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Thank you! We are grateful beyond words. 🙂

          • Kristina

            Love “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist”!!! Great book!

          • joyfulfrank

            So your recommendations are CC really how about recommending the HOLY BIBLE. NON Catholic version of your Catechism.
            As a former Catholic I find your statement that non Catholics really do not know the real story.
            I recommend CATHOLICISM EAST OF EDEN by Richard Bennett
            a former Catholic priest who like myself has found God in the Bible.
            He tells truths of CC. Wonderful reading for those in CC who
            have the nerve to see other views.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The Catechism is simply our “Statement of Faith.” If you look at just about any church’s website, you will likely find a page with their “Statement of Faith” or something with a similar title. It will usually have a list of their beliefs along with the verses that support each belief. The Catechism does just that. It lists each belief of the Catholic Church along with the Scripture verses that support each belief. It is a very comprehensive Bible Study.

          • MarcAlcan

            So your recommendations are CC really how about recommending the HOLY BIBLE.

            How about because that is a given. If you want to understand the Bible then go to the Catechism. It gives you a coherent explanation of Scripture and how it relates to our life of faith.

            I recommend CATHOLICISM EAST OF EDEN by Richard Bennett former Catholic priest who like myself has found God in the Bible.

            Now you are being naughty. Why would you recommend books inspired by the Father of Lies? Do you want people to follow him?

          • Lindy

            there are many instances of Satan invading the Catholic church and yet it stands…and it is evolving as a living church should…doctrine can change but God’s word does not

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            I agree, historically though, doctrine has not changed, disciplines have, but not doctrines. 🙂

          • ME

            Think of it this way…. If you see a homeless man on the side of the road, you can’t just see that he’s there, proclaim that you believe in the fact that he’s homeless, and move on with life. THat has done nothing. And God will be right there telling you, “you did not feed me when I was hungry.”

          • Adrian Vincent Yanez

            You need to do some study on indulgences. The abuse was corrected within the Church. No one had to leave to make the correction. Luther was an insufferable heretic who condoned polygamy and child abuse. Now there is some history you should do some study on.

          • MarcAlcan

            Luther was an insufferable heretic who condoned polygamy and child abuse. Now there is some history you should do some study on.

            Indeed. I find it strange how people can follow a man who came up with a theology to help him get rid of his scrupulosity? Hardly a sound basis for theological innovation.

          • Neiman

            First, grace and obedience to the Jewish law or any works of the flesh are contrary one to another, they are in complete opposition to each other. Salvation is by grace through faith, grace is a free gift based on unmerited favor. If you add any self effort to obtain or maintain that gift, then it is no longer a gift, it is no longer grace, it is compensation for work done. It is a wage. If we can add anything to grace, then we have reason to boast before God and man that we earned our gift. Add works to grace and it is no longer grace, salvation by grace would be a lie.

            Both Paul and later James indicated that proof of whether or not we had true saving faith, because such a person would then have the Holy Spirit flowing in and through them, we should expect to see “good works” of the Spirit (not the flesh) flowing out from that person’s life. If such “good works” are not in evidence, then there is reason to question whether or not that person had saving faith, if they truly were born again in Christ. Grace and works are not coupled together, one does not obtain or maintain the gift of that grace by any works of the flesh. Those “good works” are solely a measuring rod to help us gauge whether or not saving faith existed at all.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            I am not suggesting anywhere that anything be added to Gods grace .. neither does the Catholic Church.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            As a baptized Catholic, I can agree that I have been justified and I have been saved. The initial grace of justification and salvation I received in baptism is a done deal. And Catholics do not believe we were partially justified or partially saved at baptism. Catholics believe, as St. Peter said in I Peter 3:21, “Baptism… now saves you…” Ananias said to Saul of Tarsus, “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.” That means the new Christian has been “washed… sanctified… [and] justified” as I Cor. 6:11clearly teaches. That much is a done deal; thus, it is entirely proper to say we “have been justified” and we “have been saved.

            There is no doubt that we must continue to work in Christ as Christians and it is also true that it is only by the grace of God we can continue to do so. But even more importantly, Scripture tells us this grace can be resisted. II Cor. 6:1 tells us:

            “Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.”

            St. Paul urged believers in Antioch—and all of us by allusion—“to continue in the grace of God” (Acts 13:43).

            When Catholics read of Abraham “justified by faith” in Romans 5, we believe it. But we don’t end there. For when Catholics read of Abraham “justified by works” in James 2 we believe that as well. For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taken all of Sacred Scripture into the core of her theology harmonizing all of the biblical texts. Thus, we can agree with our Protestant friends and say as Christians we have been (past tense) justified and saved through our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

            But we also agree with our Lord that there is another sense in which we are being saved and justified by cooperation with God’s grace in our lives, and we hope to finally be saved and justified by our Lord on the last day:

            “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned “(Matt. 12:36-37).

          • James Grimes

            Be careful here – “The initial grace of justification and salvation I received in baptism is a done deal. And Catholics do not believe we were partially justified or partially saved at baptism.”
            Baptism does not save anyone from their sins. Romans 10:9-10 explains how someone is saved. It is not through our own efforts.
            Have a great day.

          • MarcAlcan

            If you add any self effort to obtain or maintain that gift, then it is no longer a gift, it is no longer grace, it is compensation for work done

            And there’s the problem with your understanding.
            Let’s think of a gift say a table. Would that table be any less of a gift because you put it to use. Would the giver have wanted you to leave that gift in the box so that it will remain forever a gift?

            Or how about a closer analogy. The gift of a plant. Is this a kind of gift that you leave aside hoping that it will stay that way. Or is it something that grows and must be nurtured. Do you expect the gift to come over every time it needs to be weeded or fertilized or watered or does the giver expect you to do that?
            Faith is BOTH a gift and a response. When we are given grace, we are suppose to respond to that grace. In responding that grace blossoms and even more grace is given.
            It is like the talent that is given and must be put to use. Or else the master will throw you out where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

          • Lindy

            I was taught we do good works because we have faith…faith without works is dead

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Faith is both a gift from God, and an active, daily choice for each of us. Faith without works is simply lip service.

          • Renata Mileske

            Ephesians 2;10…….for we are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do……works is the process of ones sanctification process after his faith unto repentance….one is not saved by ones works but is saved “unto” good works

          • MarcAlcan

            Ephesians 2;10…….for we are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God has prepared in advance for us to do……works is the process of ones sanctification process after his faith unto repentance….one is not saved by ones works but is saved “unto” good works

            So let me get this straight: In your understanding, God saves you, then sanctifies you?
            Why is sanctification necessary if you are already saved?
            Isn’t being saved the most important thing?

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Faith alone cannot save us, your confusing it with grace .. grace alone does save us.

          • Neiman

            That gift of grace, must be obtained by faith and even that faith is not of our self it is the gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith or we are not saved at all.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            It takes that *work* to have the faith portion of the ratio … Good deeds are a common part of being a Christian.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Love your passion, Clinton! I may not agree with everything you are writing here, but I sure like your argument style. I am a holiness-Wesleyan type who attends a conservative Catholic Church for a long list of reasons. One of the great arguments I have heard on this matter can be found in Salvation & Sovereignty by Kenneth Keathley. He expands on the concept of Molinism (named after the brilliant 16th century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina) in the following analogy: imagine you wake up to find that you are in an ambulance (God’s Grace) being taken to the hospital (salvation). Time after time, you exercise your free will to get out of the ambulance before it reaches the hospital (thus rejecting God’s free gift of Grace prior to salvation). Finally, you remain (by faith) in the ambulance to reach the hospital (salvation).

            This analogy seems to address both God’s Sovereignty and human’s free will. Like all analogies, it will break down, but it is an attempt to represent Molinism and avoid the logical inconsistencies of Calvinism. My question is this: how do you think this analogy does in representing your Catholic understanding of the events leading up to salvation and including them? Thanks and God Bless!

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Thanks and may God bless you!!

          • MarcAlcan

            That gift of grace, must be obtained by faith and even that faith is not of our self it is the gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith or we are not saved at all.

            I don’t think the analogy capture Molina all that well.
            I think it is more like this:
            You are in a pit, broken bones, sores, etc.
            A doctors comes down and ask seeing you are almost dead picks you up (absolutely grace). At this point the grace required of you is not to resist.
            You get taken to a hospital and you can do either two things when you wake up. You can sip the soup or turn away and keep your mouth shut refusing to be fed.
            If you sip the soup (prevenient grace) you will get a little bit better and recover your strength a tiny bit at a time. If you don’t, you will starve. And because you refused the first time, you have cause a hardening in your heart (pride) so the next time you are offered the soup, you refuse again. So the strength you got first time after being intranvenously fed is now waning.
            In the spiritual life, each time we are given prevenient grace, if we cooperate with that grace then our “virtue” muscle become stronger. Every time we say yes to God, then we get stronger in God such that finally, because of having become so strong in our love of God, there is no other way to respond to God but yes. In the same way, if we persist in the No’s, the final answer will be a No because this is what we have conditioned our selves to respond.
            The “yes” path is the path that the saints took.
            Svetlana Stalin (Stalin’s daughter) said that Stalin’s last act before he died was to raise his first to the heavens. His life has been an increasing No to God, so in the end it is still a No.
            This is why we must not neglect any small sins because grace is always given to combat them. The more we give in to them, the harder they become to fight and the more enslaved we become to them.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            I like your analogy, and your application of it, really well – thank you for spending the time to think that through and for sharing it! God bless you mightily, MarcAlcan!

          • MarcAlcan

            That gift of grace, must be obtained by faith and even that faith is not of our self it is the gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith or we are not saved at all.

            Indeed. But in saving us, God has willed that it should require our cooperation. Otherwise, your theology is very much Calvinistic where God creates people just to send them to hell.
            Think about it, if salvation is entirely through a gratuitous outpouring of grace and faith without needing our input, then you are saying that God gives this gift to some and not to others. Which means that God has decided from time immemorial to save some but not others.
            Now, since He is responsible for the creation of all human beings, ergo, He purposely created human beings just to send them to hell. Ergo, He is a sadistic God who like inflicting suffering.
            Furthermore, where does free will come in?
            So I really think you need to give your theology a bit more thought.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Catholics believe in salvation by grace alone, yet grace must not be resisted, either before justification (by remaining in unbelief) or after (by engaging in serious sin). Read carefully 1 Corinthians 6, Galatians 5, and Ephesians 5.

            Second, the Bible nowhere uses the expressions “justification by faith alone” or “salvation by faith alone.” The first was directly the invention of Luther; the second his by implication. Luther inserted “alone” into the German translation of Romans 3:28 to give credence to his new doctrine.

            James 2:24 is remarkably clear: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Yet millions of Christians teach the opposite: They claim that we are “justified by faith alone”—saying good works are unnecessary for Christians in the process of justification.

            This misconception is rooted in the misinterpretation of a few key texts, such as Romans 3:28: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.” Romans 4:5 is another: “And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” On the surface, St. Paul seems to be saying works are not necessary for our justification or salvation in any sense, but that is not the case when we examine the context of these passages. Not only would this interpretation contradict the words of James 2, but it would also contradict Paul himself.

          • Neiman

            I get far too many replies here daily on Christian topics that reuire thoughtful and long answers; and you just sent three very long ones to me and I simply do not have the time and energy to refute all your claims. Let us just agree we oppose one another and will never agree.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            This is starting to become a consistent excuse pattern with you. Why not simply deal with people’s arguments using your own knowledge and reasoning?

          • pax2u

            it should not take that long to post a link from an anti Catholic website,
            I am trying my best to be polite to Neiman, at the same time it is hard to turn a cheek to someone who claims that the Catholic Church is unbiblical and anti Christ, when he has no doctrinal denomination, and a theology of hating the Catholic Church

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Zero condemnation from me Neiman. I just simply cannot ignore misnomer’s in accusations with Catholicism. God bless you friend!

          • MarcAlcan

            I get far too many replies here daily on Christian topics that reuire thoughtful and long answers; and you just sent three very long ones to me and I simply do not have the time and energy to refute all your claims.

            Read them though. You might just learn a thing or two.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Paul made very clear in Romans 2:6-8 that good works are necessary for attaining eternal life, at least for those capable of performing them: “For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.”

            So what about the fact that Paul also said we are “justified by faith apart from works of law?” He was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a very prominent first-century heretical sect known today as the “Judaizers.” These heretics taught that belief in Christ and obedience to the New Covenant was not enough to be saved. A man also had to keep the Mosaic Law (which, according to Hebrews 7:11-12, has been superseded in Christ) and be circumcised in order to be saved (cf. Acts 15:1-2). Paul gave us one clue—among many—that he had this sect in mind when he wrote in Romans 2:28-29, “For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal . . . ” Paul told us in Colossians 2:11-12 that this true “circumcision of Christ” is baptism.

            It is in this context that Paul says we are “justified by faith apart from works of law.” He did not in any sense say that works are unnecessary. He specified works of law because these were the works without which the Judaizers were claiming one “cannot be saved.”

          • Frank

            %100000+

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Not sure what %100000 means, lol

          • Frank

            well besides your defense of Catholics and infant baptism what you wrote was spot on, but you didn’t post the catholic stuff till after.

          • Lindy

            I wish I could be in your Bible study

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Read Robert Sungenis book *Not by Faith Alone* for this topic – it is a powerhouse!!!

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Ephesians 2:8-9 declares: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” This is another text commonly used to dismiss good works as necessary for salvation in the life of a Christian. However, once again, context is the key to understanding Paul. In verses 4-6, he says: “But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ . . . and raised us up with him . . .”

            Context reveals that St. Paul was talking about the initial grace of salvation or justification by which we are raised from death unto life. The construction of the Greek text of Ephesians 2:8-9 makes clear that both grace and faith are entirely unmerited. Many Protestants are shocked to discover this is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches—and baptizes babies to prove it. How much more can the Church do to demonstrate this truth? What kind of works could a newborn baby have done to merit anything? However, once that baby grows up and reaches the age of accountability, he must begin to “work out [his] own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in [him], both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12-13). Or, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:10: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

            Are we justified or saved by faith, according to Jesus? Certainly! But by faith alone that would exclude works in every sense? No way. In John 11:25, we read: “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.” That is faith. Yet, in Matthew 19:17-19, Jesus declared: “. . . If you would enter life, keep the commandments . . . You shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” That is works.

          • James Grimes

            Thank you for making the correction.

          • MarcAlcan

            The context justifies that declaration.

            Rom. 3:28-30, “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

            ….Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

            Why is it that Protestants think that it is sufficient to quote Bible verses in a debate without explaining how that is supposed to shore up their argument.
            So, what do you think all these verses say and why it proves your point?

          • pax2u

            but if a Catholic ever dares to post scripture the answer is always “it is out of context” maybe with 30 thousand different denominations, the non Catholics have 30 thousand different interpretations of scripture

          • Neiman

            First, if you cannot overcome your tendency to overwhelm me was multiple posts, before I have a chance to answer one or two, don’t expect any answers. I am not going to devote my entire day to you.

            All of these passages in one way or another speak to the necessity of faith playing a role in our salvation. These passages and the ones that I have already provided that link grace and faith together, testify against your churches belief in salvation by grace alone. And, in actuality, your church denies salvation by grace alone, as it demands quite a number of things that each Catholic must do in order to secure their salvation. So to the Roman Catholic Church, has always been salvation by grace plus works, two things which are wholly contrary to each other.

            I have made it clear elsewhere and I will say it here to you for the last time. In a way we can say that salvation is completely a gift of God, in the sense that while Scripture clearly links grace and faith together as the means of salvation, in the passage that I have shown from the book of Ephesians, that faith which is linked to grace is also the gift of God. As God deserves and demands all the glory for saving humanity, He even gives us the faith necessary for receiving that gift of salvation. Yet, what I said remains true, salvation is a free gift of God’s grace, a gift based on unmerited favor, it is equally true that we must receive that gift by faith. The fact that even that faith is a gift of God, does not deny that faith is required.

          • pax2u

            I wonder if Neiman is a Once Saved Always Saved version of one of the 30 thousand non Catholic denominations

          • diamondinruff

            Once is enough!

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Have you looked up the words “faith alone” in the Bible? These words are found in James 2:24.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Yes, once is enough: As James says ~~~

            What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

            But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
            Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

            You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
            In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

          • Silvasd

            But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭5‬ KJV)

          • Adrian Vincent Yanez

            Faith alone is not in the bible. the quote is actually “not by faith alone”. Luther conveniently left out the word “not”.

          • joyfulfrank

            Romans 5:1 Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God. Who cares if it says faith alone? That verse tells us that if we have faith we will be justified by God acceptance

          • Adrian Vincent Yanez

            Note. The word alone does not appear in this passage from Scripture. Obtuse.

          • joyfulfrank

            THAT’S two our Fathers and one Hail Mary Adrian
            Yuk yuk you are forgiven

          • MarcAlcan

            THAT’S two our Fathers and one Hail Mary Adrian
            Yuk yuk you are forgiven

            Why should Adrian be forgiven for stating a truth? Should he have lied?

          • Adrian Vincent Yanez

            Giving the bible to a prot is like giving a loaded gun to a 4 year old.

          • joyfulfrank

            That is why you need to seek Jesus and not Francis
            Shame you can not take interaction with other humans
            who believe differently than you.
            Now go tell your human being your sins (the priest).
            And of course after three hail Mary’s and one our father
            and this HUMAN NOT JESUS WILL FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS

          • MarcAlcan

            That is why you need to seek Jesus and not Francis

            But we do go to Jesus and Jesus said, I give you Francis.

            And of course after three hail Mary’s and one our father and this HUMAN NOT JESUS WILL FORGIVE ALL YOUR SINS

            So you are going on record as saying that Jesus is a liar because He said human beings can forgive sins? Think carefully before you reply.

          • MarcAlcan

            I would not phrase it quite like that but close.

          • Adrian Vincent Yanez

            Note. The word justified does not appear in this passage. Ok. alll you snake handlers out there go for it. There are 44,000 prot denoms in the world. They all claim to know what the bible teaches and they don’t agree. Thank you Pope joyfulfrank for your profound incite.

          • joyfulfrank

            Adrian
            It is not in your catechism that’s for sure. But to those Christians non catholics it reads just as I state in the English Standard version. THANK JESUS I am NOT the Pope who is a false prophet.
            BTW as a former catholic I know the Book of Romans is off base
            you are not allowed to read that book.
            You think just like that old joke that when St. Peter welcomes
            someone new to heaven he shows him around.
            The newcomers ask what is that murmuring coming from the other side of the wall. St. Peter answers please speak low that’s the
            catholics and they think they are the only ones up here.

          • theonerightway

            joyful, if the book of Romans was off limits, as you say don’t you think that it would not be read in church? Don’t you think it would be removed from the bible? Martin Luther is the only one I know of that has removed books from the Bible. You have been taught myths of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Have you read he Catechism to know the true teachings of the Catholic Church assume?

          • MarcAlcan

            Thanks’ to JESUS I am NOT the Pope who is a false prophet.

            That you are not a prophet is evidently. But that what you say is false is also evident.
            Christ established ONLY ONE CHURCH and it aint’t the one you belong to. That was established by a sinful man.

          • Lindy

            I would say a misguided man…as we are all sinful! yes I am Catholic and I am forgiven and I have been a Catholic for many many years

          • Lindy

            that has been an ignorant joke for years…spread by people who dont know beans about the Catholic religion…but that is ok God forgives as he weeps for you to see the similarites and stop making up differences…we have enough! FOR THE SECOND TIME I HAVE NEVER BEEN TOLD NOT TO READ ROMANS AND IT IS IN OUR SUNDAY READINGS SO YOU ARE ONE BIG LIE SPREADER OR JUST GULLIBLE

          • Biyn Christian

            Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: The word “justified” is in Romans 5:1 in Catholic Bibles. No snake oil here!

          • MarcAlcan

            Romans 5:1 Therefore since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God. Who cares if it says faith alone? That verse tells us that if we have faith we will be justified by God acceptance

            How do you understand this part of your post: if we have faith we will be justified by God acceptance?

            What does it mean to be justified?

          • MarcAlcan

            faith alone* is only in the Bible once; and it is not in the Epistle to the Romans.

            Indeed. It is in James and he says NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

          • Lindy

            I do not know even one Catholic that looks to Rome Catholic Church or any of its rituals for salvation…you are misinformed. That is like saying churches save…I do not go to church to BE saved…I go to church because I am saved and that is my whole church…although the more I go to church the easier it is to walk as the Lord wants

          • jasonmays

            Martin Luther added the word ‘alone’.

          • Neiman

            Did you know that the word Trinity does not appear anywhere in the Bible? Yet, it is clearly described and both Catholics and most Protestants believe in the Trinity, right? Trinity is not stated, but it is Divine truth.

            In a similar fashion, while the word “alone” may not appear in the passages about salvation by grace through faith, just as surely that is clearly implied and demanded by the passages. “8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that [faith] not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…” See there is no way other than by faith this grace is appropriated, so “alone” is clearly justified.

            God offers this salvation as a free gift, an unmerited gift of His Grace (mercy) and it can only be obtained by faith; and yet, even that faith must come to us as the gift of God, as if it is by any other way but a free gift and by His faith, we can boast we are better than other men that tried to earn it by works of the flesh. So, both the gift of Salvation and the faith to obtain it produce thanksgiving and all the glory to God.

          • MarcAlcan

            those Catholics that have come to salvation based on God’s grace alone, by faith alone – his faith, in Christ alone

            Sorry but salvation is NOT by faith alone but it is by grace alone.

          • Neiman

            That is not what God’s Word says:

            Ephesians 2: ” 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…”

            I will not engage in word games with you. Yes, salvation is a free gift of God’s Grace alone, it is an unmerited gift, meaning we cannot ever deserve it, we cannot earn it. He offers it freely but we have not the reality of it while we remain in the flesh, so we must accept and live as if that gift is ours – by faith. That is God’s clear Word. Yet, because God must have all the glory, even that faith is not based on our self will or blind stubbornness, that faith itself is also the gift of God.

            You cannot separate the gift from the faith to receive that gift.

          • pax2u

            I see that he will agree with you

            “Yes, salvation is a free gift of God’s Grace alone”

            maybe you are making progress,

            Keep the faith

          • Lindy

            I am Catholic and I dont have an evil bone in my body..it amazes me how people can judge my Christian faith without knowing anything…I have studied my faith…I have studied other faiths and I will worship my Lord and savior through this faith til I die…I am His servant…good and faithful…and I read the Bible and I pray and I recognize that my religion put the Bible together and yet still holds precious and important many traditions that did not get in the Bible..other religions through away all the traditions that existed WITH CHRISTIANS WHO DID NOT HAVE A BIBLE FOR MANY YEARS! THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH

          • James Grimes

            ” I recognize that my religion put the Bible together…” I always thought that this is what God had done. Are you saying that man had done this?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Can you explain how the Bible was written and compiled?

          • James Grimes

            Yes, I am able to do this. It is common knowledge.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Please share then.

          • James Grimes

            Why is it that you would rather have me do the work for you when the information is easily available? It seems to me that you would receive more of a blessing if you looked up the information and learned from it. Start here: http://www.gty.org

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I’ve studied the origins of the Bible. I was just curious what your beliefs were on it.

          • James Grimes

            OK then. Have a blessed day.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You as well.

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Yes, man did do this, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit – much in the same as the Holy Spirit guided the Prophets of the OT …

          • joyfulfrank

            Lindy is indoctrinated as that faith is. Popes approve what they
            can and cannot believe.

          • Lindy

            Wrong. Sorry

          • Marge Simpson

            Jesus appointed Peter to be the head of the Church on Earth (the first Pope) to teach and guide the Church according to His teachings, and told Peter he would send the Holy Spirit to guide him ( and his successors). Jesus also gave him the authority to bind and loose. In the Bible, St. Paul (and why is it protestants refer to him as saint yet ridicule Catholics for our saints?) admonished the early Church to hold fast to what he and other apostles had taught them, which had been handed down through tradition. The Bible says that Jesus said and did many other things that are not written down. Jesus grew up with and learned the scriptures we know today as the Old Testament, INCLUDING the six books later removed by protestants. It is a fact that the Catholic Church, over 300 years after its establishment by Jesus, organized those and the newer scriptures written after Jesus’ time into a book called the Bible. It is more of a sacred library, since it is a collection of books. So yes, in that sense, the Catholic Church gave the Bible to the world.

          • James Grimes

            God gave Scripture first to the Jewish community and then, following the writing of the New Testament, provided it to Christians. If the RCC did not persecute people, and kill them, for trying to make the Scriptures available to the common people, we would probably be a unified body today.
            Following the Reformation in the 16th Century, Protestants adopted the Scriptures as their own, so to speak, and have invested time and scholarship into the study of them. The numerous Bible expositors such as R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, and David Jeremiah, to name a few, have made the study of God’s Word freely available to Christians.

          • Lindy

            there was no persecution by RCC for making the scriptures available to commom people…I had a Bible in my house from the day I was born…my parents…and I have always had a Bible in my house more than one actually…my grandparents had a Bible…that line of Catholic families with Bibles is long…the Bible is a Christian thing not a religion thing and actually the Jews even have the Old testament!

          • James Grimes

            Lindy, did you read my comment before posting? The RCC did persecute those who attempted to provide the Bible to the common people in the vernacular prior to the Reformation. This is a commonly known fact.

          • Lindy

            yes I read it and the RCC did not persecute…no on persecuted in the name of the church against Bibles that is ludicrous and of course evil…evil may have persecuted disguised as holy but not called RCC

          • James Grimes

            OK Lindy. Believe as you wish. Have a good day.

          • Lindy

            also Bibles were hand written…and unaffordable…

          • James Grimes

            I’m talking about PRINTED Bibles during the time of the RCC’s persecution of those who sought to place Bibles in the hands of the people. This was AFTER the invention of the printing press.

          • pax2u

            I have been told by these anti Catholics that Catholics do not know the Bible, when I say that I read and know the Bible, then I am told that Satan also knows the Bible

            When I disagree with an anti Catholic lie, I am told that I need to provide scripture,

            When I provide scripture, then I am told that it must be out of context,

            there are more than 30 thousand non Catholic denominations with more than 30 thousand different theologies, and which is true and pure?

          • pax2u

            Lindy I wish you well, and your faith is encouraging but you are dealing with the anti Catholic bigots here.

            James Grimes, Neiman, Gary and Frank want to discuss theology based on lying about the Catholic Church

            If they are corrected they then shout harassment

          • joyfulfrank

            Lindy
            Do you think only Catholic’s will go to heaven. Your post suggests
            that only Catholic Church is the only church that is real!
            Are you familiar with John 3:16 ?
            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have eternal life. (NO mention of Catholic only)
            3: WHOEVER (that means anyone regardless of religious affiliation) BELIVES in him (Jesus) is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already.
            I left the Catholic church at age 14 more than fifty years ago.
            because That Church publishes its own set of verses what to read or not to read as acceptable.
            My main reason was The Catholic Church does NOT accept this verse. Matthew 28: 16-20 this is Jesus speaking Matthew 28: ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME. ****Catholic Church teaches the POPE HAS ALL AUTHORITY.
            JESUS IS LORD the POPE is a series of holy men 113 to be exact who have lived and died but WERE NOT JESUS.
            Sad to see people who follow a man and not Jesus.
            Here is another verse your NOT allowed to read Matthew 10:5-6 Again Jesus instructs his Apostles go NOWHERE AMONG THE GENTILES and enter not Samaritans, BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL (JEWS) SO Catholic church claims Peter was given instructions by Jesus to start Catholic Church another lie. SINCE YOU ARE NOT TOLD CORRECTLY YOU KNOW NOT THE REAL BIBLE. That my friend is NOT (BEAUTY OF C.C.) but an outright lie.
            Sorry for those who are indoctrinated and cannot think or READ
            the Holy Bible for themselves. You still have time, hope you seek the truth

          • Lindy

            I cant find the post that suggests that as No I dont believ that and if you would let me answer your question you wouldnt have need all the Bibke ref! No is my answer and at 14 someone lied to you about publishing our own Bible…The Catholics put the Bibke together as one boook of many books written by many inspired men.it is the religions that broke from the church that eliminated some books…and I have been in non denominational Bible studies and we can read any Bibke we want..The New Testament is the same in ALL Christian Bibles..ss

          • pax2u

            Bless you Lindy, be prepared to be attacked for your faith, the anti Catholic lunatic fringe will descend upon you with lies and hatred

            They say that the Catholic Church kept the Bible away from the people until the Gutenberg Bible, But they forget that Gutenberg was a Catholic

          • Clinton Lowell Ufford

            Sir, have you taken the time to read some of the works of Ignatius or Polycarp?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, they are both very good.

          • joyfulfrank

            Peace on earth good will to all. Did you learn that in whatever
            church you go to on Sunday?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why are you asking me this question?

          • pax2u

            I see that there is a new “frank”

          • Lindy

            the only problem I see is teaching them the gift of giving is going to require someone to get something! we cannot teach children under 8 to think like adults it happens though…I believed in Santa and I still do it is a miracle of good will that happens at this time of year only by THE GRACE OF GOD…GOD SENDS SANTA…HE SENDS ANGELS…HE WORKS THROUGH MANY,,..

          • joyfulfrank

            We use the season of worshipping Christ Birth regardless of the day. No one can prove his exact birth day but he was here, he is
            returning count on it.
            Santa the secular figure can be used as we have taught our children and they have taught their children share with your family
            and give to those children less fortunate.
            BLESS AND HONOR CHRIST AND HE WILL REWARD YOU IN
            his presence in the future

      • Lisa

        You say even if the date is wrong it’s not wrong to celebrate Christ’s birthday, but if the date is wrong aren’t you then celebrating a lie? I also don’t understand what you’re saying when you say gifts are given to demonstrate the spiritual gift of giving, what does that mean? Why are you celebrating Jesus’ birthday when he came to seek and save the lost? I think if God really wanted us to celebrate His birthday then there would have been a date and a record of people doing that. I think chistmas is a way to dilute Christianity. Just because Jesus’ name is in the celebration doesn’t make it Christian.

        • Neiman

          I have made my position clear and it is not worth arguing about. You must do what you think best.

          • Lisa

            I’m sorry to hear that. I thought I had some good points and I was interested in your reply. Have a good evening.

        • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

          God DID give us the date. Look up BethlehemStar.net. Rick Larson found it in both the Old and New Testaments.

          • Lisa

            No offense Marie but I would be more impressed if you would have said “Look in your Bible under”….and gave chapter and verse. Jesus being God has always existed so He doesn’t have a birthdate. He came not so we can celebrate His birthday but so we can be saved from our sins. Aren’t we then worshipping in vain, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men?

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Jesus as Word has always existed, and will always exist. No question of that. But Jesus Incarnate walked the earth at a specific time, in a specific place. As Word, He set the stars in motion at the beginning of creation. I dislike lifting whole quotes, so I really would like you to check out the site I noted. Mr. Larson has done an amazing amount of research. He notes these specific quotes to demonstrate that he is not performing “astrology” but true Astronomy. JOB 31:26–28 ISAIAH 40:26 PSALM 19:1–4 ROMANS 10:17–18

            http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the-stage/the-stars-and-the-bible/

          • Lisa

            Those are some pretty random verses, Marie, I’m not sure how they prove he is using astronomy. The point is though the actual date does not appear in scripture itself. No where does it say in the Bible that we ought to celebrate Jesus’ birthday and there is no Biblical record of anyone doing so. My point then is why do we think we need to celebrate His birthday? Put up a “christmas tree”, through a Christian lens what is the point of a “christmas tree”? People put presents under a tree and give them out on a certain day and that’s supposed to mimic what Jesus did? That makes no sense to me anymore. I used to do it but one christmas I was starting to wonder how what I was doing made any sense in that the Bible is about how we are sinners and Jesus came to save us. The point I think of christmas is to turn people’s attention from what is real and true to myths. Blurring the lines of reality and what Jesus really represents. I can’t also help but wonder that the Catholic church only sees Jesus as a baby or on a cross and we celebrate his birth and death. Interesting.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            You have some good questions, but I can’t give you all of Rick Larson’s information in this space. Please go to his site and look at his work. He can answer your questions about the Birth of Jesus better than I can because he has studied it in more depth.

          • Lisa

            I’m not going to his website Marie, because I don’t really believe he’s figured out the birth of Jesus using astronomy. Sorry. What I’ve been saying all along is its not in the Bible. You keep saying it is because this guy says it is. I’ve read the Bible and it’s not in there. You have to compare what people say to the Bible. The Bible is the truth. Anyone can say anything but the Bible is the plumb line. There is no date plainly stated in the Bible-fact. The apostles did not write about Jesus birthday-fact. Then to me it really doesn’t matter what the guy thinks he’s found. Be very careful of who you follow Marie, there are many deceiver’s in the world and they will lead you astray.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            “It’s an astronomical mystery. A strange star is claimed to have appeared at the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. This site is an investigation of the story found in the Biblical Gospel of Matthew, a story often called the ‘Star of Bethlehem.’ It brings the words of Roman and Jewish historians alongside the visions of ancient prophets. It mixes “modern” mathematicians with murderous turmoil in the Roman imperial court. It combines all these with astronomical facts which no one disputes. And it concludes that the star was a real event. Come solve this age-old mystery for yourself…”

            AND

            “The Star demonstration is a multimedia presentation by lawyer and law professor Rick Larson. In a presentation seen by many tens of thousands live on stage and many tens of millions on television, Larson leads you sleuthing through Biblical and many other historical clues. He then pilots a computer model of the universe across the skies of 2000 years ago as you watch. At these presentations, you will see the striking celestial events the ancients saw.”

            AND

            “An astronomer tracking the movement of planets through the star field watches not so much on the scale of minutes, but on the longer scale of days, weeks and months.

            On this scale of time, Jupiter did stop.

            On December 25 of 2 BC as it entered retrograde, Jupiter reached full stop in its travel through the fixed stars. Magi viewing from Jerusalem would have seen it stopped in the sky above the little town of Bethlehem.”

            MARK 8: 18 Please reconsider your decision to go to BethlehemStar.net.

      • Lindy

        I am not sure why there is an issue with the date….doesnt everyone know it is a chosen date to celebrate the Savior’s birth and not the actual date????

    • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

      Regarding the date of the birth of Jesus: I would refer you to http://www.bethlehemstar.net . The date is accurate, according to the research done by Rick Larson. The Bible does carry the date of the Birth of Jesus, if you can read God’s celestial calendar.

    • Lindy

      you had a very distorted version of Santa Clause…I believed in Santa Clause when I was little, my children did and my grandchildren do…it did not ruin Jesus and we all know Santa works FOR God not is a god…my grandchild said in a store recently…:God please tell Santa to bring me that for Christmas”! He is 4…he knows! and Santa is bringing him that big candy cane! I think more non Christians are have a materialistic debt ridden Christmas…I know I have a budget and I dont go in debt and Santa brings one present to a kid…and I learned at a young age that Christmas is not the exact date because we dont know it, but it is the date that is used…I am sorry you had such a bitter miserable childhood. My kids were never told Santa is a fairy tale…he is not…he was real…there is a fairy tale associated with him but HE IS REAL. and he bows to the baby and he serves the Lord. and his good deeds come from the FATHER

    • Dan

      telling a person a child a young child about Santa Claus is not a lie it’s a memory where them to hold dear. You cannot tell young child that Christ was born on Christmas Day otherwise you might be lying to him. You celebrate Christmas because that was the day we chose to celebrate it Christ’s birth we don’t know that for sure. since we don’t know it for sure yes it would be a lie to tell a small child that is the day that Christ was born unless we tell our child that we really don’t know. Talk about confusion. When you tell a small child about Santa Claus you’re only doing it for a. Of time say 2 to 4 years. I don’t know any small child including myself that has resentment toward their parents for telling them about Santa Claus. Just like a parent has a right to discipline their child in a different way than others apparent have a right to tell your child stories and memories they’re traditional in their family.there are certain things in a family there’s no one else’s business their diet their lifestyle there went worship their job.Kirk Cameron’s going out on a risky limb here and he’s brave to do it and he’s not doing it to discourage Christians from believing the truth. He’s doing it for tradition and memories and yes it does that fact behind it.
      I remember my wife made such a big deal about not doing Halloween and dressing the kids up in costumes so innocent as it was. Within two years she was making costumes to dress them up in because she understood later it was innocent and the memories are important for the child’s development.

      as a Christian you have a right to hold too literal interpretation of the Bible. No where in the bible does it mention Christmas and no where in the bible does it mention Halloween and dressing up in costumes. These are interpretations that are left up to the parents discretion. Nobody should be telling you how to discipline your child nobody should be telling you how to feed your child each day.lastly nobody should be telling you how to worship the lord

    • jasonmays

      Not all christian teachings are in the written scripture–some are traditions handed down.

    • Adrian Vincent Yanez

      The Internet is not the bible, therefore you are committing a grave sin by being on the Internet. Her authority is Pope Mike Gendron from Plano Texas.

    • joyfulfrank

      Your post sound like the atheist arguments heard all the time.
      Santa is NOT God and just ask any child who sees 15 Santa’s on
      the street corners and asks is there really a Santa.
      Personally sounds like you got coal for Christmas.
      Merry Christmas and may Jesus Christ place love in YOUR heart

    • MarcAlcan

      First of all, Christmas is not even in the Bible.

      That is probably one of the most absurd comments ever.

      Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus! How is that event NOT in the Bible?

      our Children to bow down to and sit in the lap of a “False God”

      And there goes another absurd comment. Santa never, ever was considered by ANYONE to be a god anymore than you consider your uncles or father a god when they give you presents.
      Santa Claus however is indeed a figure of the imagination. Santa Claus only barely resemble the Good St Nicholas. Santa Claus as we know it now is a Coca Cola invention. He is a by product of a Protestant America!

    • Alex McCleod

      lighten up man

    • http://delumen.org/ Corleonis

      Watch The Star of Bethlehem by Rick Larson. Be ready to take notes and do some hard thinking. Then meditate on what you have learned and try not to talk about things you know nothing about. The video is available on YouTube.

    • http://delumen.org/ Corleonis

      http://youtu.be/zPHKg0M3mEo

      By the way, Mr Larson is a Protestant who is not afraid to THINK.

  • Jason Horsler

    I refuse to allow my children to believe in a demi god who knows their bad and good deeds and gives them presents with omnipotent and omnipresent power on the 25th. a jolly fat man who is immortal. and is a lie that they will eventually discover. My children get the truth and the gospel from me – and presents all year round. that is my ministry. it is time men stand up for the faith and lead their families out of the this filthy holiday or greed and lies.

    • Scott B. Sr.

      Excellent Jason! I share the exact sentiment. May the Lord continue to strengthen the faith of likeminded believers like us. To God be the glory, Amen!

    • Lindy

      wow, I never knew about that belief! You somehow got a really serious and mistaken presentation of Santa and Christmas…and it is not a filthy holiday…it is a miraculous holy day that just happens to be celebrated with thankfulness on the 25th…as we dont know the actual date
      Santa is not a demi god…He is a servant of God…he was changed into something else not through the church but by atheists

      • Jason Horsler

        lindy – words have to mean something. you say santa is a servant of God. do you realise by so saying you are implying that a man alive in the fourth century is still serving God today? that implies he is many hundreds of years old. and then I must ask in what capacity is he serving God? by giving gifts on the feast of saturnalia and Mithras while we put up pagan trees in our homes? you are inferring on this dead man, immortality and inhuman power. you are making him a demi god. if Nicholas was ever a true believer he is now with God same as every other elect person who has ever died – he has no function in this world. that is biblical. what is not biblical is celebrating Christ’s birth – most especially by lying to our children, making idols in our homes, slavishly buying gifts for eachother and singing mostly catholic and pagan carols.

        • Lindy

          I am not good with words obviously as my point was not clear at all…where do parables fit into your world…some of this is to teach children on their level…why do you feel lied to and I dont feel lied to at all…Santa is a wonderful memory of my childhood and my grown kids who worship only one God and know Santa’s role is physical for children and spiritual…the spirit of Christmas for adults. The Christmas tree is a beautiful representation of Jesus the light of the world..I guess anything can be interpreted as pagan if one so choses…but I see your words as opinion…it is the spirit in which one does things that God looks at…not everyone has a Christmas of slavishly buying gifts for each other…there is a third choice..my choice and many believe as I do..I am a devout Catholic sinner that is constantly trying to be the person God created me to be even as a grandmother! adain why do you feel lied to and I dont feel lied to at all…I get it

  • jcrosby35

    Have you ever noticed the names of santa/satan?
    Satan is a liar and thief/ santa is a diversion from the truth which is Christ.
    You might want to consider, are you are raising up santa as the gift giver over Christ? And believe me your kids are going to be looking at the xmas tree not Christ when the lights and gifts are calling to their attention. The greatest gift you can give to your children is the truth in Christ.
    Cameron is promoting santa or saint Nicholas to the inclusion of Christ. That might work for the RCC which is and apostate cult that calls itself Christian. But it is not going to work so good for you when your child grows up and you have to deal with it.
    The gift giver is Jesus Christ and He only is the way the truth and the life. John 14:6

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      Oh look here, fun with spelling and free association! Wow, what passes today for biblical exegesis and plain common sense in the fundamentalist world is very sad.

      • jcrosby35

        What a surprise. Its magister the troll. Well old buddy since you like to follow true Christians around and criticize them lets see what you have to offer.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          No, I am not a troll just because I disagree with you and read the same articles that you do. Are “true Christians” the Christians who happen to believe and interpret the same way that you do?

          • jcrosby35

            Try again troll.
            I do promote the Word of God the Bible in full context. If you have a problem with that then I guess you have a problem with me and the Word of God the Bible. Please feel free to express your Biblical views, (In full context of the Word), If you can?

          • pax2u

            so you are trolling again, your hatred of Christians knows no bounds

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            There is that silly rhetorical justification: if a person disagrees with or questions you, they do not do it to you but to God/Jesus/Bible.

          • jcrosby35

            Silly rhetorical justification? Fine words for a troll. But ignorant to say the least.

            Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            In other words, you have no coherent answer except playground name-calling.

          • jcrosby35

            In other words you as a troll are avoiding the issue. If you want to answer me then do so from the Word of God, the Bible in its context. Other wise find another game to play.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            How have I avoided the issue? I have clearly stated why I think your rhetoric is unfounded bunk. All you have offered in return is playground name-calling and ad hominem retorts.

          • jcrosby35

            I think your rhetoric is unfounded bunk. Do you really think?
            In the first place I back up what I say with God’s Word, the Bible.
            2nd place you consider that unfounded bunk.
            3rd place you challenge me according to my scriptural context.
            4th place I call you a troll because you have nothing to say of any practical importance except to scandalize someone else.
            Now I am calling you to back your garbage. And the best you can do is evade?
            In Jesus name get behind me satan.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Wow, turning around my arguments against me really accomplishes much and fleshes out your own “arguments.” Quit being melodramatic with the charismatic cursing. Perhaps you are looking in the mirror and Satan is behind you?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Tell me, what would happen if I provided an equally lengthy laundry list of prooftexts? You would simply do what all other fundamentalists do when they demand such a thing: continue to conflate their interpretations with the text itself and then proceed hypocritically to re-intepret my prooftexts to suit their presuppositions.

            Obviously, you cannot reject my prooftexts or say that they contradict yours, because that would do away with inerrancy and literalism as methods.

          • pax2u

            hard to argue with the intellectual force of your retort, “bunk”
            I tremble in your theological presence

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Fail. Out of context.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Which Bible? In which language? Translated by whom, and when? Unless you have access to the Codices and can read ancient Greek, Hebrew and Latin? Of course, reading it in the original languages also means that you understand the cultural, historical and linguistic nuances of the people who scribed the Word of God. Can you do that?

            Of course you can’t, so stop trying to beat others over the head with your book. Learn it before you try to teach it.

          • jcrosby35

            I have about 15 different Bible translations, (Not Paraphrased) all pier reviewed over the last 100 years or so and on the market. All used by competent Bible scholars. So cut the BS and move on.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Pier or Peer? by whom? Do you have any Bibles translated before Luther, Wycliffe and Stuart? Until you really know what the Bible was, you cannot speak authoritatively about what it IS. Do your homework.

          • pax2u

            they must just go crazy or crazier when they see the words Christ and Mass together,

          • pax2u

            did you know that rudolph the red nose reindeer is really a code word for the devil leading the other reindeers to HELL, it is true, I read it in a Jack Chick comic book

    • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

      “Santa” is from another language, and means “Holy” or “Healthy”. Variations of the spelling in other languages include “saint”, “sante”, “sainte”, and “santo”.

      (In order: Italian, English, Spanish, French and Portuguese.)

      I think you need to apologize for your insults. In those languages, the evil one is most often called by variations of “diablo” or “demon”. Shame on you.

      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=satan

      and

      http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=saint&searchmode=none

      • jcrosby35

        Excuse me? I am and American, speaking to Americans, using and English translation. If you prefer another translation in a different language then go for it. Give the rest of us English speaking people a break from your BS.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          That is the beauty of the Catholic Church. It’s not just for Americans. It is for everyone. It is universal.

        • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

          Use of obscenities indicates a weak vocabulary and a short temper. Your pseudo-linguistic aspirations are inaccurate, demeaning, and further demonstrate your difficulties in supporting a coherent argument. A true scholar appreciates etymologies.

          • jcrosby35

            What I appreciate is people who are real people instead of hypocrites looking for opportunity to elevate themselves with their vain superiorities trying to discredit others.

          • Marie Van Gompel Alsbergas

            Ad Hominem.
            The words “santa” and “satan” are not connected with each other in origin or intent throughout the English speaking world. Just as your name happens to share the same letters with: brosy, corby, boys, bros, cobs, cory, cosy, coys, orbs, orby, , orcs, robs, rocs, rosy, scry, sorb, sybo, yobs, those two words happen to share the same letters.

          • jcrosby35

            No kidding. Thank you for that observation.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            This sounds nice as a generalized truism, but in actual practice, for you, does it mean that the “hypocrites” you cite are simply those who disagree with you and question your assumptions?

  • Michelle Bowen

    I don’t know why at first I felt compelled to even listen to his POV and see what he had to say. Cameron is just doing this to beable to hear his own voice he loves the sound of it. He sells himself constantly as not only the “Fighter for Christmas and santa” but he also puts himsellf accross as someone who really is catholic. ONLY a Catholic would think we Christians and they..a pagan based Religion that claims ties with God……would be the same. The Catholic church is the great deceiver, and in Revelations 17 they are described as the whore of Babaloyn. Read the verse, look at their colors, and you tell me that she isn’t the Catholic Church. It even mentions a “False Prophetess” and the Catholic Church is known for Mary worship. Oh I’m sorry saying their “Hail Marys” for forgiveness for their sins. There are 2 big issues with this one being the most important ly God can forgive your sins and you only ask him! NOt thru someone else. The second…you can’t keep going back to the sinful life over and over. THere are some who don’t confess for years or do Hail Mary’s for years…and they think doing them makes them good. Its not true their sin is still there!

    The use of embalming is also a very pagan ritual, Egypt did it they were pagan, and other cultures did it as well. Embalming is not good and Saint Nicholas does not heal anyone. In the Bible, God tells us in Revelations that there will be a false Christ who appears to do wonderous things. I am not saying Saint Nicholas is him. HOWEVER …the Catholic church just totally isn’t right. Its Satan’s immitation of Christianity. As we learned with Mose’s story, Satan’s evil doers can do some things that mimic God’s abilites…but they fail in the end. So for now there is this amazing mimicery….but if you have spiritual disernment…God’s help in viewing it with wisdom. You will relaize. You cannot take PAGAN and turn it CHRISTIAN! Its not how it works.

    God is set apart from the world! He is true purity and goodness, and anyone like Cameron who thinks that he has the right to lie is wrong. One day he will sit before God…and be very embarrassed….and realize too late how false his words were. In the mean time we as REAL Christians need to spread the word and love of God…we need to debunk his stupid words. It is our duty to stand against the liars of Satan. People say that Satan and Santa are merely a rearranging of letters, they are absolutely RIGHT! Satan is not goign to show you obvious evil, he will show you something that seems harmless even nice, and then he will suck you in.

    On the movie “God’s not Dead” I saw this part that made me think of my mom. She has Huntington’s Disease…and now is in the final time of it. She may only have months to live. She is a good kind woman, never hurt anyone, was always following God and is saved…still is honestly. We are all Christians…in my home and yet we are often poor and suffering due to her illness. Its hard watching her suffer day in and day out.

    There are rich people in the world who are horrible, thieves, and just enjoy being greedy. They sneer at us, they ask us questions like. “Why haven’t you sold your art work and beocme famous?” as an example. or I am sure some would ask, “How can you believe in God when he lets your mother suffer so! Shouldn’t Christians like her be exempt from diseases? After all if God loves them why would they suffer?” these questions are something the world does pose to anyone with this situation.

    In the movie the mother looked at her rich greedy son, and spoke for the first time in years. “Maybe it is because you are in a cage and you do not realize it. Satan is keeping you comfortable until it is the end day and then the doors will close and you will not beable to escape” I was like O_O OH MY WORD! Its so true. We suffer just like anyone else, being christian does not make us exempt. HOWEVER being Christians means we should have a good attitude and try hard to leave things in God’s hands. The point is that Christians suffer, it doesn’t make the existance of Christ any less potent.

    Athiest and other reilgious people don’t understand what it is to have true unbending faith. To this day my mom may not say much but one of the things she still says “God is awesome! I love GOD!” ….

    So we shouldn’t let Cameron and liars like him shift our faith or shake it at all. WE are standing with GOD not him! He will learn it one day I just pray its not too late! Its not right what he says or does, and we now know him for what he is; a wolf in sheeps clothing. Beware of him and others like him.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      This is just Dispensational-Rapturist fearmongering and anti-Catholic paranoia. The two are a poisonous combination.

      • pax2u

        now we know who is fighting the war against Christmas,
        maybe are the same ones who vandalize the Nativity Scenes in the town squares

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          It is difficult to see where the priorities of the misotheistic atheists of the Freedom from Religion Foundation end and those of the aniconic and iconoclastic Protestants begin.

          • pax2u

            If the Pope speaks for Peace and Love, they must disagree less they appear to be in league with the Catholic Church

  • Dan

    Many Christians do not take the Bible literally. Many including myself don’t need to feel fundamentalistic about the Bible. The Bible is a wonderful spiritual guide for all Christians. Because of the many contradictions in Scripture it can be very confusing for Christians to take every scripture literally. Those who do should be welcomed those who don’t should not be criticized. If you do not take every scripture verse literally that does not make you less a Christian than those that do. That is a fallacy. its what matters in your heart and what you believe in what you accept as truth that Jesus is Savior and died for our sins. The Bible comes in many languages and has been transcribe many times over the centuries. To say that any one version of the Bible is the most accurate is pure speculation. And up for debate. Many Christians however want to understand that the King James Version derived from the original Greek text is the most accurate.

    • Frank

      And many false decievers have gone out into the world. Many false teachers secretly introduce destructive heresies. There are no contradictions in scripture. By you picking and choosing which parts are true and which parts are not you elevate yourself above Jesus and take Him off the Throne. Jesus warns very clearly numerous times to avoid false teachers. He left us His Word and Holy Spirit to discern. If you refuse Him by refusing His Word then you will be lost. The Saducees and Pharisees had His Word and took the same stance you had and were shut out of God’s Kingdom.

      • Dan

        is no picking and choosing what’s right and wrong in Scripture. I’m talking about the literal interpretation which is different among Christians depending on the translation. Catholic Bibles don’t have the same translation as King James Version and yet Catholics believe they have the correct Bible. Now Muslims believe they have the correct scriptures in the Quran and they are succeeding by infiltrating every part of American society including our elementary schools.. Its up to you and you alone to interpret the Bible the best way you can.It’s not up to you to judge another Christian on how they are interpreting the Bible. Unless they want you to tell them to and that’s why many Christians go to a sermon at a church to listen. and that’s why we have pastors to lead and elders oversee. Show me where it says in the Bible that santa claus does not exist and that christmas should not be celebrated. by not telling a small child about Santa and the stories of Christmas you are not leaving any scars on the child but they will regret later in life.

  • Dan

    Lastly if a parent decides to tell their child about Santa and let them know about the spirit of Christmas through the stories of Santa, his reindeer, elves and anything else that is their decision. No other Christian has a right to judge them aside from themselves being judged for anything. just like a teenager will experiment with drugs and hang out with the wrong friends decisions are made on a temporary basis in life. Tell your child about Santa is not going to scar them. It will make the time enjoyable to see their reactions. When a parent feels they’re old enough they can tell them the true meaning of Christian when they can understand it. explaining to a 12 or 3 year old that Jesus died for our sins has no better understanding at that age then telling them about Santa Claus and his reindeer. Your kids are going to hear a lot of stories through their lifetime some of them will be lies speculation and some of them will be the best facts and truth that you can find. As a parent it’s your decision to raise your child to be a responsible person in a civilized society. let the child have fun and be a child and fantasize and enjoy all the wonderful things at their age. it’s the wonderful memories that a person can carry through their lifetime of their childhood that is priceless. Santa and his stories are one of those memories. Let the parent be the parent and don’t judge them for something they hold traditional in their own families. And don’t be a critical Christian, nobody enjoys them

    • Neiman

      If a small child can understand Santa Claus, that child is old enough and has the necessary faculties to understand who Jesus is and to know that He alone is the reason for the season. Unlike you, most true Christian parents believe they have a responsibility to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. The spirit of a child is rather like a computer in that if we program in garbage, if we feed them lies, if we fail to feed them the truth from the first moment of their lives; why should we be surprised that as they grow and mature, they find that no revulsion in the face of garbage and filth and wickedness and lies? Why should we be surprised when they reject the truth about their own lives and about God?

      I have always been not very concerned about the idea of Santa Claus, if children could see in him the gift of giving, I figured what is the harm? Yet, I have come to see in our country over my many, many decades of life, how we have changed from being mostly a Christian and a God-fearing people and have descended into an increasingly atheist and anti-Christian country. I have seen are morals decline to a degree which in my youth I would’ve thought impossible, I have seen us become a libertine, debauched, morally degraded and corrupt people. While the seeds were sown for our own destruction earlier, the most foul, noxious seed was placed in the ground in 1948, by extreme left-wing Justice Hugo Black, with the lie of separation of Church and State. In 1962, our country formally kicked the Christian God out of the public square, we told him he was persona non grata in all of our affairs, we sat down upon his throne and turned our back on Him. What quickly followed was the drug culture, the sexual revolution, assassinations, riots, the most unpopular war in American history and the beginning of a child holocaust that has cost over 55 million helpless, innocent lives, until we are now looking into the abyss, the slow and sure death of our country. Was that the fault of Santa Claus? Well, he symbolizes our willingness during the great war to begin feeding our children a steady diet that left out Christ, left out fear of God and taught us to satisfy our every lust, without any sense of responsibility.

      It always begins with small things, seemingly innocent things, but with each step we are surely desensitizing our children to the wickedness around us and our need for God. The result is, the vast majority of our children grow up feeling that if they are not murderers they will get into heaven anyway and life should be eat, drink and be merry. Our hearts become hardened and we condemned our children to hell, all because we began to feed them a diet filled with garbage and lies. Oh the garbage did not seem very foul at first, the lies seemed fairly innocent and yet little by little the garbage became more foul, the lies became bigger and because they were always small steps, we never seem to notice that we were destroying our children.

      Sorry Dan, I think you are absolutely wrong and without meaning to, I think your attitude amounts to the very worst kind of child abuse. Remember this, when we tolerate evil, toleration itself becomes evil.

  • pax2u

    Is Kirk Carmeron now an apostate pagan, and his left behind movies are all the product of the false prophet?

  • Alex Christian

    Oh gosh…please don’t drag Liberty University into this…we dislike him a lot….

  • bella

    Another roman catholic pagan invention .I choose to celebrate Jesus and Im no scrooge.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      What is a “Roman Catholic pagan invention?” To me it sounds like a ridiculous oxymoron or a conscious attempt to associate Catholicism with something you consider to be “evil” or “bad.”

      • bella

        Definitely the latter part of your statement.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          LOL… I guess your honesty should be applauded. Others here try to mollify their anti-Catholicism with dishonest rhetoric.

        • bella

          Dont get me wrong Im not against catholics in generaI. Some of my acquaintances are devouted catholics and are good ,descent people who love God . My grandmother who raised me was one and she meant the world to me ,rest her soul.My disagreement is with the catholic teachings and beliefs .I dont agree in confessing my sins to a man when Jesus paid the price for mankind’s sins with his blood. I dont agree with having to pay a priest to say prayers for the soul of a loved one and I am opposed to the worship of idols that are made with mans hands especially praying to dead people who have been turned into saints.

      • pax2u

        If the Pope spoke in favor of milk would the crazy lunatic fringe anti Catholics declare it the Devil’s juice?

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          No, the title of “Devil’s Juice” has already gone to booze. ☺

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Perhaps, if this happened, they could call milk “The Poisonous Pablum from the Breasts of the Great Whore of Babylon?”

          • pax2u

            watch out if you use mutlisyllabic words the lunatic fringe will accuse you of a theological doctrinial conspiracy

  • bella

    TBN the ecumenical network playing its part in these last days. Started of the right way but sadly strayed from sound doctrine.

    • pax2u

      do they still have the lady with the pink hair?

  • Jeanie Nelson

    This is a difficult discussion because there is no Santa in the bible. Jesus was born in March or April so it is really not his birthday. However rarely does anyone in our family celebrate our birthday on the day we were born. So if you are truly setting aside a day to honor Jesus I don’t see anything wrong with it. The gifts if they are given to people in need would represent how Jesus would have us treat the poor so that would be honoring his example. In other words. I don’t see condemnation of the Holiday by the bible so I am not sure. We try to in our family give a gift to the children and adults may get some money to help them out and then money goes to support Israel or the local sheriff department that is giving toys to tots. We use to have big Christmas days but we have quit that because it became to us not a honor of Jesus but of selves.

  • josmart

    Ironic how some are showing disdain for Catholic tradition by way of requiring scriptural proof . . . of something that came about through Catholic tradition!

    • pax2u

      Catholics are always told, provide scriptural proof!
      When scripture is provided, the answer is always, “well that is out of context”

      • josmart

        . . . which begs the question “Just where (and of whom) does your context reside?”

        • pax2u

          I am always out of context when the scripture that I provide does not agree with those who attack my faith

        • pax2u

          I am also told that Catholics do not read the Bible
          when I say that I read the Bible, and know the word of God,
          I am now told that Satan also knows the word of God,
          that is why I pray for those who hate my faith

  • josmart

    Things Jesus never said:
    “On this rock I write this book.”
    “Write this in memory of me.”
    “Here are your table of contents.”
    “Actually, make that the next chapter.”
    “Can you read me back that last verse?”

  • josmart

    Catholic hit piece disguised as a Christmas article. God bless you this holy season.

    • pax2u

      welcome to the war on Christmass

  • Lidia Landon Michael

    4th paragraph is mistaken. It says “Christians and Catholics”. Catholics ARE Christians. They are the original Christians. All Christians were Catholic or Orthodox until the Protestant revolt in the 1500’s. Better to have said “Protestants, Evangelicals and Catholics”

    • pax2u

      the article is just red meat for the anti Catholic lunatic fringe

  • pax2u

    atheists, Seventh Day Adventists, Hebrew Roots Movement united to fight the war against Christmas and Christians,
    tis the season

  • Michael Williams

    Graduated Liberty – and I am a deeply committed & faithful Roman Catholic. Disappointed by all the disingenuous sentiment being lobbed at one another under the heading of the Nativity of the Lord and Christmas tradition. I could go on and on and back and forth all day – just like some of you are. Some of the Biblical interpretation going on is just whimsical, and the comments about Catholics are uninformed, biased, mean spirited, and argumentative; you all should do a humble self-evaluation. The message of Christmas isn’t about toys, it’s about the gift – the ultimate gift being the coming of the Lord. The Church gives us a liturgical calendar so the year flows and makes sense, so our pasters can cover the whole of Scriptures in a three year period, and not just the comfortable topics found there. Advent is about the coming of the Lord, yes, but also to prepare ourselves for the Lord coming again. And people in their denominational hate will refuse to hear this. I could go on and on but to what avail? People will only hear what they want to hear, instead of acknowledging different approaches to a common goal – life in Christ Jesus.
    And I found Gendron’s comments to be especially harsh and opinionated. Again, missing the mark. I won’t see Cameron’s movie, but I appreciate his efforts, and great him as a brother in the Lord; like me, not perfect Quite a few people here today have presented themselves in their bully authority by demeaning others with their vision of their perfection, and it is disappointing.
    The time before Christmas is a preparation. As in Jeremiah, and Isaiah. It is John the Baptist shouting, make ready! If there is an enemy, it is the purvasive culture of retail; the relative culture that is winning battles with our children! The true celebration of Christmas starts at the birth, and continues into our new calendar year.
    This is the time of year we need to unite, not concentrate on our differences, and demonstrate that – like we are instructed in Matthew 25 – how to be good Christian men and women that the world expects to see.
    Not my best writing effort, sorry about that; it was written on the fly. But hopefully, it is visable that I pen this with hope, charity, and goodwill.
    Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night. God bless everyone.

  • Jack Rohde

    I think Christmas is good, because we turned it into a good way to promote Christianity, but Kirk is off his rocker about the Catholic Church, the satanic pagan Temple of Janus, which was rebuilt into the Vatican and called Christian, if so then why do all the satanic priests in the world go there to be blessed or cursed? kiss the Illuminati Masonic ring, and seek advice for more training for advanced and powerful witchcraft spells? from Jesuit Warlocks like Jim Jones, they also own and run the porn, entertainment, Banks, industrys through the Jesuit ran Mafia, with a few poor Jews like Hefner and Murrdock at the front so they look bad. Happy Christmas, Jesus is the reason for the season.

    • Steve D.

      This is what happens when you read too much Jack Chick.

  • jcrosby35

    Christmas Pagan Origions.

    Few people realize that the
    origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before
    anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

    No
    one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description,
    most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September,
    approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is
    very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records
    shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite
    unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate
    Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

    The
    answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of
    the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous
    partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of
    this feast.

    In
    Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years
    before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia,
    honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends
    of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season
    was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The
    festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the
    tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers
    and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From
    this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

    In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of
    Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of
    Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice,
    known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and
    was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured,
    the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to
    encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

    Huge
    Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means
    “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was
    considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began
    as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

    The
    tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter
    solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh
    winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again.
    Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often
    present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a
    religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and
    worshipping huge trees.

    In
    350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December
    25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible
    for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to
    Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their
    feasts would not be taken away from them.

    Christmas
    (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany,
    though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it
    first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian
    celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran
    minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the
    true tree of life, Christ.”

    The controversy continues
    even today in some fundamentalist sects.

  • jcrosby35

    The Evolution of Christmas.

    Where and when was Christmas first celebrated,
    and when did the legend of St. Nicholas first arise? Traditions and origins of
    the December holiday celebrated around the world.

    On the Christian
    calendar, Christmas is considered to be one of the holiest and most sacred days
    of the year. The evangelist Luke, in his New Testament epistle, gives the
    account of the miraculous birth of the Savior to a virgin mother. It is this
    testimony, followed and believed by Christians for two thousand years, that
    seems to have breathed life into the traditions of celebrating Christmas, or
    Christ’s mass.

    In Christianity, it is
    the birth itself that is most revered on this day, the twenty-fifth of
    December. Christians for ages have gathered on all corners of the Earth to
    celebrate a redeemer, and to gather in friendship and humility to remember the
    birth of the baby that is the very cornerstone of their faith. Candles are lit
    in churches, chapels, and other houses of worship during services throughout
    the month of December to celebrate and to remember.

    The books of Matthew
    and Luke describe in more detailed ways than the other books the happenings of
    the holy night in Bethlehem—the foretelling to Mary of her impending
    motherhood, while still a virgin, and the long ride to the city for the purpose
    of paying taxes, and finally the birth itself. They also describe kings from
    the east, coming to worship the babe in the manger, the only structure available
    to Mary and Joseph on this evening. The Bible tells that these wise and wealthy
    kings are humbled by the birth of the one of whom they’ve been
    foretold—humbled, and honored. They bring, Luke says, gifts to impart upon
    the baby as a gesture of good will and honor.

    The giving of these
    gifts, many believe, was the very first act of Christmas, and is still imitated
    far and wide to this day.

    Here are some facts
    that surround the traditions and origins of Christmas, not only in Bethlehem
    some two thousand years ago, but today, as we embark upon the twenty-first
    century.

    *In ancient times,
    Romans exchanged gifts on New Year’s Day as a way of saying “˜Happy New
    Year.’ The actual wrapping of gifts is thought to have begun in Denmark.

    *The first Christmas cards were Victorian, and appeared around 1846. A
    postal worker in England is said to have created the first card, and very
    quickly the deed of sending Christmas blessings to friends and neighbors and
    loved ones caught on.

    *The Christmas tree is said to have its beginnings in the part of
    the season in Germany, a medieval custom. Although the trees used in
    celebration were not lit until well into the 17th century, still, they were
    considered lovely with paper roses, foil, gold, wafers, and dolls hanging from
    their boughs. As years passed and more and more of these objects were hung from
    the tree, a concern was given to the possibility of the tree tumbling from the
    weight. So German glassblowers began to produce lightweight balls to replace
    the heavier nuts, fruits, and other items previously used.

    *Yule Logs were
    thought to have brought luck into the home. Tradition says that the log must be
    picked from the owner’s land, or from a kindly neighbor’s parcel, and thrown
    into the hearth to burn for a solid twelve hours on Christmas Eve. If the log continues to burn for the required
    time, and loved ones sit round it sipping cider and telling stories, then
    surely good luck and blessings will befall the house and its inhabitants.

    *Candy Canes, another of the most famous sights and scents of
    Christmas, were first put upon Christmas trees as tempting sweets and rewards
    for good children. Originally white and straight, a choirmaster in
    England had some made to look like shepherd hooks, with bent ends. He passed
    them out to his children to help keep them interested and quiet during
    services, and after a while pink roses were baked into the confection. It
    wasn’t until the 20th century that the red stripes were added.

    *The Advent wreath
    began as a Lutheran custom in Eastern Germany. They were made round as a symbol
    of God’s eternity and of evergreens to represent immortality and the
    everlastingness of God. The four weeks of Advent are represented by three
    purple or violet candles for penance, sorrow, and longing, and one rose or pink
    candle to represent hope and joy. During the Christmas season, they are replaced by solid white candles.

    *Customs vary from
    country to country, much as the donor, as to the giving of gifts. Some teach
    that the gifts are given by elves, angels, the Christ child, three kings, St. Nicholas, or Santa Claus. In Brussels, living gifts are presented to
    friends and loved ones, such as birds, flowers, or pets. In the West Indies,
    hospitality or talent is exchanged as a sign of good will, not material gifts.

    *The story of the
    most-famous of gift givers varies from one source to another, with many
    opinions in between. The most popular version of the tale of St. Nicholas
    follows.

    Born in 280 AD in Asia
    Minor, St. Nicholas was a Christian Priest who later became a bishop. He
    traveled extensively and being of good wealth, was given to presenting gifts of
    money and other presents to perfect strangers, as well as acquaintances. Never
    wanting to be found out, he left his offerings in the homes of his receivers
    only after dark, when all were in bed asleep. And to this day, those who
    believe in Santa Claus are still warned that if even one peep or footstep is
    heard, St. Nicholas will not leave the treasured surprises that are anxiously
    awaited.

    In 303 AD, Roman
    emperor Diocletian commanded that St. Nicholas be honored as a god. The
    conscience of Christians in Rome would not allow the serving of another god,
    and this angered Diocletian so that he imprisoned even Nicholas himself, for
    refusing to be served as the emperor wished. He remained in prison until
    Constantine came to rule in 313, and returned to his position as Bishop of
    Myra. It is said he continued his wise and caring ways throughout his life,
    which ended on December 6, 343.

    By 450 AD, churches in
    Greece were being named in honor of Nicholas and by 800 AD he was recognized
    officially as a saint by the Catholic Church. By the 15th century, he was
    behind only Jesus and Mary as the most beloved religious figure—more than
    2000 chapels and monasteries were named in his honor.

    By the 1500s, the
    English began favoring Father Christmas, and as St. Nicholas’s popularity continued
    to grow, new and embellished stories of his true-to-life kindnesses, especially
    to children, were widely spread.

    “˜Santa Claus’ comes from the Dutch
    “˜Sinterklass,’ a pronunciation of St. Nicholas. As children the world
    over attempted to pronounce Sinterklass, the name was soon “˜Santa Klass,’
    and finally, Santa Claus. Quickly the bishop’s wardrobe of handsome cloak and
    bejeweled gloves were replaced with the now famous red suit, hat, and shiny
    black boots.

  • Clinton Lowell Ufford

    Reformist’s have out-right done their very best to make it look as if Catholic theology teaches that God accepts us *based* on our own merit and good. The Catholic Church has never taught this. The acceptance of our goodness is *based* on Gods grace, the grace provided by the atonement of Christ. We can not judge past actions of the Catholic Church without first looking at her doctrines, which have never changed.

    • Frank

      The catholic church doctrine has changed dramatically over the years. And most especially as regards the way of salvation!!!

      • CrossedtheTiber

        Please give your evidence. Nothing in the dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church has changed. Are you possibly referring to disciplines? It is easy to get the disciplines confused with dogma and doctrine.

        • Frank

          Research the changes for yourself. There have been a lot! It’s not difficult to find them. I was raised catholic and have watched the dogmas and doctrines just within my lifetime change and most especially regarding salvation!! Never mind being able to read the changes over time before I was born. And it super easy to verify everything from the horse’s mouth.

          • pax2u

            so you make a statement that you can not support, and tell others to research support for your statement?

            .the burden of proof is on the person making the statement

          • CrossedtheTiber

            If it’s not difficult to find then can you please cite specifics and clearly list which dogma or doctrine has changed?

          • pax2u

            watch out frank has decided that his Catholic family are satanic pagans, he must have an interesting thanksgiving

          • Frank

            It’s very easy to dismiss sites or people in a discussion, case in point please refer to pax2u’s posts, rather than look at what is presented. Also, I know I didn’t just accept people’s word but became a Berean and searched and searched even going to official catholic documents and such to verify the quotes from official catholic documents. So I don’t expect someone in a discussion such as these to automatically trust my word or any website I would reference. There are a few Chicks out there, not just Jack. So I suggest that you do the research yourself. Just look up salvation requirements and changes as a starting point. Search Scripture and ask God. Reference dictionaries so that you fully understand each word and what is actually being said. And seek God to tell you. Like I said I have personally watched over my lifetime the changes, having been raised RCC, on salvation.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You are making a pretty heavy claim against the Church that Jesus started – I figured if you were going to make such a claim, then you would be able to provide some solid evidence…

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also – research was what led me straight home to the Catholic Church.

          • Frank

            I have done that research numerous times and over many years. I examined it all up to God’s Word which He holds above His name. So I reject all but God’s Word in teachings and doctrine and teachers and so called churches, etc.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            If you’ve done the research then you should be able to give proof of your claim that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church have changed.

          • Frank

            It’s all over the Internet. If you want to know the truth you will do the research. Seek and you will find. At that small post above I was refering to your small post on you suggesting I research why you went to the RCC. I’ve done that research many times.

          • pax2u

            so you can not find anything to support your lies?

            too bad that you are making things up

            what I do find is from hate sites, filled with lies and crazy conspiracy theories like the Jack Chick hate comic books

            you have done your research but can not provide it, wow what a scholar

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Which dogma or doctrine of the Catholic has been changed by the Catholic Church and how?

          • Frank

            Salvation. Again, please google it and all the other stuff I suggested.

          • pax2u

            True the Catholic Church teaches Salvation through Jesus Christ

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Please share the change that was made to the dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding salvation. It is important to include both the original dogma or doctrine as well as the supposed revised dogma or doctrine so that we can all see the changes for ourselves. What you are claiming is a monumental charge against the Catholic Church so it is important that we all know the evidence behind this claim.

          • Frank

            Their changes are well documented on the Internet. There are many sites that list chronologies and cite directly from them that explain all this. I don’t have a trust in any man to cite any of them. I do trust God will lead you to the Truth if you seek the Truth. I don’t trust me to outline to you everything. I trust God to give you the Truth. Me I will make mistakes, mistypes, cite someone that is off on something somewhere. God He will give you the Truth. I’ve done a lot of reading over the years on all sides of these issues, seen man’s reasonings and arguments from all angles from the catholics to those that oppose their teachings. I’m nothing, but God is everything. Trust Him and His Word only.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The claim that you are making would not only be found all over the internet, but broadcast worldwide on all the news channels. If it is so easy to find the claim that you are making then it should be easy for you to list exactly which dogma and doctrine has been changed. Please either retract your accusation or give the evidence for it.

          • Frank

            I have seen news articles from at times. And I have definately googled things at various times over the years, including right before this conversation started. If I was to retract what I said I would be lying. I don’t want to lie to you or lead you or anyone astray. Sure i could post things and then we could banter back and forth with all sorts of arguments, but I desire though that you fully trust God and His Word, not any man or any arguments or reasonings I could post on this matter.

          • pax2u

            an accusation with out support is meaningless

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Agreed.

          • pax2u

            I really doubt if Frank would pass a freshman logic course at the local community college

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Which dogma or doctrine is it and what changes were made? That was your accusation but you have zero support for your claim.

          • Frank

            Already wrote what and where to dig up the information.

          • pax2u

            thank you for apologizing and accepting the fact that you can not support your statement

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I appreciate that you want me to have the truth. I want the same for you. The truth is that none of the dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church have been changed. Jesus was telling the truth when He said that He would establish His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. The fact that the doctrines and dogmas have not changed points directly to the power and sovereignty of the Holy Spirit. It is truly miraculous that the Catholic Church is still going strong nearly 2000 years after it began in 33 A.D. Hell has been trying to destroy it from the outside and even from the inside, but the Holy Spirit protects it. Human beings have done everything they possibly can to destroy it and yet they haven’t been able to. God is faithful to fulfill His promises.

            I hope that you have a good evening and I wish you well.

          • Frank

            The Word of God is The Truth. As long as you hold to man and his teachings such as from a churches’ doctrine or dogma you will not be able to obey Jesus, which is the Word of God and know The Truth and be set free. You will be in bondage to man, to sin, instead of being a bond servant of Christ.

            The RCC has definately changed doctrines and dogmas over its history. I’ve witnessed it in my lifetime. Jesus did not found the RCC. Satan protects the RCC, with it center of power on the city on seven hills as prophesied by Jesus would happen.

            The Word of God is the Savior, who is Jesus Christ, which God holds above His Name. The RCC holds its teachings and traditions above the Word of God!! That’s what Satan does! Holds himself above God. Turn to Jesus, The Word of God not man and Satan’s teachings.

          • pax2u

            I had an exchange with jcrosby35, he posted statements about how Christmas is pagan with out a citation, I asked him to id his source, he said it would not make a difference, when he finally id’d it as Herbert W Armstrong United Church of God, which is a Saturday Sabbath only Church, Herbert W Armstrong called the Catholic Church, the Church of Babylon and that the Catholic Church would martyr all who opposed the Sunday Sabbath,

            when asked about his United Church of God reference, he said he knew nothing about them and did not agree with them? odd to post from an anti Catholic source that an anti Catholic would not agree with?

          • Frank

            Jesus did not start the RCC. He spoke heavily against their teachings and practices all through His written Word. Which many have already posted on here and on the other article recently. There is a lot of doublespeak, perverting word definitions and anti biblical teachings within the RCC. Smoke and mirrors. It’s one of the reasons I studied the original language the NT was written. It’s a dead language and its definitions do not change with the blowing of the wind and desires of man. But all through history man has changed RCC doctrine and dogma. Man has even done so with non RCC doctrine. Let God be true and every man a liar. God does not change. His Word stands forever!

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Again – you’re not citing any sources or information to support your claims that the dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church have changed.

          • Frank

            Yes, I have already explained why. Google will bring up many sites that will show you direct quotes from the RCC. Verify those quotes as being authentic. I must step out of the way of doing the research for you. Be a Berean and search the Scriptures. Search the Scriptures which God holds above His Name, not any man’s interpretation. Trust His Word as 100% true, all of it, even when you don’t fully see in the natural sense. Trust God to lead you into all truth through His Word. He defines everything in His Word. I must be weak in not doing the research for you.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I have done my research, which is why I’m a Catholic. However, I am also not the one here making a claim that the dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church has changed. I, as a Catholic, state that none of the dogmas and doctrines of the Catholic Church have changed. You are calling the Catholic Church a liar on this issue without giving proof. Your lack of proof makes me think that you are knowingly telling falsehoods.

          • pax2u

            Frank is so typical of the anti Catholic

            make a crazy statement, be unable to support it, and then say it is not their responsibility to back up their own hate

          • Frank

            The RCC is definately spreading many false doctrines including on this issue. Google the proof, get copies of the books, publications from the RCC. See for yourself. You can google this just as easily as I can. Look up definitions of words. Do exhaustive word studies in the Scriptures to see how God Himself defines them vs. how men define them. Trust God not man. Man will lead you astray, be of a noble character and be a Berean. Jesus warned us there would be false teachers everywhere, secretly introducing destructive heresies. The RCC is tricky in how they try and justify everything. The JW’s have that same spirit in how they try and justify their stuff. They both will use a bunch of truth and then slyly introduce a lie. Mormons do that as well. Stand only on God’s Word not any of man’s word. I can say anything but I am not asking you to stand on my word by providing links or anything like that. I am asking you to stand on God’s Word, not cleverly designed schemes.

        • pax2u

          be prepared for frank to offer a Jack Chick hate comic book

          or some other anti Catholic hate site to prove his accusation

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Didn’t you know that comic books are the sole authority on matters of theology? 😉

          • pax2u

            only for those who need alot of pictures, and very little truth, and very simple words. fits Frank

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I probably shouldn’t have said something so snarky and uncharitable…

          • pax2u

            maybe it appears that frank is already filled with hate and anger, I had my opportunity to discuss theology with him earlier,

      • Clinton Lowell Ufford

        Frank: Which doctrine’s do you mean, how did they change?

        • pax2u

          he wants everyone else to research evidence of his slur

          • Frank

            I want everyone to trust God and His Word only not any man or his interpretation. Man will lead you astray. Just look at all the various doctrines and denominations. Look to Jesus, the Word of God, not man.

        • Frank

          Please read my responses to CrossedtheTiber below. I don’t trust any man to quote specific sites as discussed below. But I do trust God and His Word. I have read and studied just about every religion and denomination out there. Contradiction here contradiction there, looking at both sides, comparing what they said to scripture. God made real to me in a mighty way when He says, Let God be true and every man a liar. So I step out of the way and say, trust God and His Word only. And will not put any man by site or other means with all that is able in your way of God and His Word which He holds above even His Name. Be a Berean and search the Scriptures. God says they are of a more noble character. The RCC has definately changed in regards salvation. I was raised catholic and have even seen it with my own eyes during my lifetime.

  • jcrosby35

    The Evolution of Christmas.

    Where and when was Christmas first celebrated,
    and when did the legend of St. Nicholas first arise? Traditions and origins of
    the December holiday celebrated around the world.

    On the Christian
    calendar, Christmas is considered to be one of the holiest and most sacred days
    of the year. The evangelist Luke, in his New Testament epistle, gives the
    account of the miraculous birth of the Savior to a virgin mother. It is this
    testimony, followed and believed by Christians for two thousand years, that
    seems to have breathed life into the traditions of celebrating Christmas, or
    Christ’s mass.

    In Christianity, it is
    the birth itself that is most revered on this day, the twenty-fifth of
    December. Christians for ages have gathered on all corners of the Earth to
    celebrate a redeemer, and to gather in friendship and humility to remember the
    birth of the baby that is the very cornerstone of their faith. Candles are lit
    in churches, chapels, and other houses of worship during services throughout
    the month of December to celebrate and to remember.

    The books of Matthew
    and Luke describe in more detailed ways than the other books the happenings of
    the holy night in Bethlehem—the foretelling to Mary of her impending
    motherhood, while still a virgin, and the long ride to the city for the purpose
    of paying taxes, and finally the birth itself. They also describe kings from
    the east, coming to worship the babe in the manger, the only structure available
    to Mary and Joseph on this evening. The Bible tells that these wise and wealthy
    kings are humbled by the birth of the one of whom they’ve been
    foretold—humbled, and honored. They bring, Luke says, gifts to impart upon
    the baby as a gesture of good will and honor.

    The giving of these
    gifts, many believe, was the very first act of Christmas, and is still imitated
    far and wide to this day.

    Here are some facts
    that surround the traditions and origins of Christmas, not only in Bethlehem
    some two thousand years ago, but today, as we embark upon the twenty-first
    century.

    *In ancient times,
    Romans exchanged gifts on New Year’s Day as a way of saying “˜Happy New
    Year.’ The actual wrapping of gifts is thought to have begun in Denmark.

    *The first Christmas cards were Victorian, and appeared around 1846. A
    postal worker in England is said to have created the first card, and very
    quickly the deed of sending Christmas blessings to friends and neighbors and
    loved ones caught on.

    *The Christmas tree is said to have its beginnings in the part of
    the season in Germany, a medieval custom. Although the trees used in
    celebration were not lit until well into the 17th century, still, they were
    considered lovely with paper roses, foil, gold, wafers, and dolls hanging from
    their boughs. As years passed and more and more of these objects were hung from
    the tree, a concern was given to the possibility of the tree tumbling from the
    weight. So German glassblowers began to produce lightweight balls to replace
    the heavier nuts, fruits, and other items previously used.

    *Yule Logs were
    thought to have brought luck into the home. Tradition says that the log must be
    picked from the owner’s land, or from a kindly neighbor’s parcel, and thrown
    into the hearth to burn for a solid twelve hours on Christmas Eve. If the log continues to burn for the required
    time, and loved ones sit round it sipping cider and telling stories, then
    surely good luck and blessings will befall the house and its inhabitants.

    *Candy Canes, another of the most famous sights and scents of
    Christmas, were first put upon Christmas trees as tempting sweets and rewards
    for good children. Originally white and straight, a choirmaster in
    England had some made to look like shepherd hooks, with bent ends. He passed
    them out to his children to help keep them interested and quiet during
    services, and after a while pink roses were baked into the confection. It
    wasn’t until the 20th century that the red stripes were added.

    *The Advent wreath
    began as a Lutheran custom in Eastern Germany. They were made round as a symbol
    of God’s eternity and of evergreens to represent immortality and the
    everlastingness of God. The four weeks of Advent are represented by three
    purple or violet candles for penance, sorrow, and longing, and one rose or pink
    candle to represent hope and joy. During the Christmas season, they are replaced by solid white candles.

    *Customs vary from
    country to country, much as the donor, as to the giving of gifts. Some teach
    that the gifts are given by elves, angels, the Christ child, three kings, St. Nicholas, or Santa Claus. In Brussels, living gifts are presented to
    friends and loved ones, such as birds, flowers, or pets. In the West Indies,
    hospitality or talent is exchanged as a sign of good will, not material gifts.

    *The story of the
    most-famous of gift givers varies from one source to another, with many
    opinions in between. The most popular version of the tale of St. Nicholas
    follows.

    Born in 280 AD in Asia
    Minor, St. Nicholas was a Christian Priest who later became a bishop. He
    traveled extensively and being of good wealth, was given to presenting gifts of
    money and other presents to perfect strangers, as well as acquaintances. Never
    wanting to be found out, he left his offerings in the homes of his receivers
    only after dark, when all were in bed asleep. And to this day, those who
    believe in Santa Claus are still warned that if even one peep or footstep is
    heard, St. Nicholas will not leave the treasured surprises that are anxiously
    awaited.

    In 303 AD, Roman
    emperor Diocletian commanded that St. Nicholas be honored as a god. The
    conscience of Christians in Rome would not allow the serving of another god,
    and this angered Diocletian so that he imprisoned even Nicholas himself, for
    refusing to be served as the emperor wished. He remained in prison until
    Constantine came to rule in 313, and returned to his position as Bishop of
    Myra. It is said he continued his wise and caring ways throughout his life,
    which ended on December 6, 343.

    By 450 AD, churches in
    Greece were being named in honor of Nicholas and by 800 AD he was recognized
    officially as a saint by the Catholic Church. By the 15th century, he was
    behind only Jesus and Mary as the most beloved religious figure—more than
    2000 chapels and monasteries were named in his honor.

    By the 1500s, the
    English began favoring Father Christmas, and as St. Nicholas’s popularity continued
    to grow, new and embellished stories of his true-to-life kindnesses, especially
    to children, were widely spread.

    “˜Santa Claus’ comes from the Dutch
    “˜Sinterklass,’ a pronunciation of St. Nicholas. As children the world
    over attempted to pronounce Sinterklass, the name was soon “˜Santa Klass,’
    and finally, Santa Claus. Quickly the bishop’s wardrobe of handsome cloak and
    bejeweled gloves were replaced with the now famous red suit, hat, and shiny
    black boots.

  • jcrosby35

    Christmas Pagan Origions.

    Few people realize that the
    origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before
    anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

    No
    one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description,
    most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September,
    approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is
    very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records
    shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite
    unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate
    Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

    The
    answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of
    the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous
    partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of
    this feast.

    In
    Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years
    before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia,
    honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends
    of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season
    was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The
    festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the
    tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers
    and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From
    this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

    In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of
    Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of
    Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice,
    known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and
    was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured,
    the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to
    encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

    Huge
    Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means
    “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was
    considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began
    as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

    The
    tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter
    solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh
    winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again.
    Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often
    present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a
    religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and
    worshipping huge trees.

    In
    350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December
    25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible
    for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to
    Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their
    feasts would not be taken away from them.

    Christmas
    (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany,
    though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it
    first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian
    celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran
    minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the
    true tree of life, Christ.”

    The controversy continues
    even today in some fundamentalist sects.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      Repost?

    • pax2u

      are you a Christian?

      • jcrosby35

        What is the matter with you Pax? You have asked me that question at least 4 times and then applaud me at other times.
        What is your problem?

        • pax2u

          will not answer? I understand

  • JTLiuzza

    Run as fast as you can while there is still time from protestantism.

  • finishstrongdoc

    Still, what was outlined by Federer is historically accurate, the relics of St. Nicholas still exist and through them God works miracles, confirming that God alone can make anyone an intercessor and a miracle worker. Being all things to all men has been the aim of all evangelists even as the great St. Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles, became.

    True religion and undefiled is this: to visit the fatherless and the widows in the hour of their affliction. (James 1:27). All lives experience a low point, where the Light of Life seems to fail, and we find ourselves without a Father to guide us, and we feel alienated from all men. We must renew our hearts in the Light of the World, the Son of God and the Son of Man, born of the Virgin Mary in lowly estate.

    Christianity is a religion born into the heart darkened by the stain of sin, but resurrected in the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is to be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. On the shortest day of the year, the Light of the World, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is born in the hearts of all those who will receive Him in in Spirit and in Truth.
    ****M*E*R*R*Y***C*H*R*I*S*T*M*A*S***

  • jcrosby35

    The Evolution of Christmas.

    Where and when was Christmas first celebrated,
    and when did the legend of St. Nicholas first arise? Traditions and origins of
    the December holiday celebrated around the world.

    On the Christian
    calendar, Christmas is considered to be one of the holiest and most sacred days
    of the year. The evangelist Luke, in his New Testament epistle, gives the
    account of the miraculous birth of the Savior to a virgin mother. It is this
    testimony, followed and believed by Christians for two thousand years, that
    seems to have breathed life into the traditions of celebrating Christmas, or
    Christ’s mass.

    In Christianity, it is
    the birth itself that is most revered on this day, the twenty-fifth of
    December. Christians for ages have gathered on all corners of the Earth to
    celebrate a redeemer, and to gather in friendship and humility to remember the
    birth of the baby that is the very cornerstone of their faith. Candles are lit
    in churches, chapels, and other houses of worship during services throughout
    the month of December to celebrate and to remember.

    The books of Matthew
    and Luke describe in more detailed ways than the other books the happenings of
    the holy night in Bethlehem—the foretelling to Mary of her impending
    motherhood, while still a virgin, and the long ride to the city for the purpose
    of paying taxes, and finally the birth itself. They also describe kings from
    the east, coming to worship the babe in the manger, the only structure available
    to Mary and Joseph on this evening. The Bible tells that these wise and wealthy
    kings are humbled by the birth of the one of whom they’ve been
    foretold—humbled, and honored. They bring, Luke says, gifts to impart upon
    the baby as a gesture of good will and honor.

    The giving of these
    gifts, many believe, was the very first act of Christmas, and is still imitated
    far and wide to this day.

    Here are some facts
    that surround the traditions and origins of Christmas, not only in Bethlehem
    some two thousand years ago, but today, as we embark upon the twenty-first
    century.

    *In ancient times,
    Romans exchanged gifts on New Year’s Day as a way of saying “˜Happy New
    Year.’ The actual wrapping of gifts is thought to have begun in Denmark.

    *The first Christmas cards were Victorian, and appeared around 1846. A
    postal worker in England is said to have created the first card, and very
    quickly the deed of sending Christmas blessings to friends and neighbors and
    loved ones caught on.

    *The Christmas tree is said to have its beginnings in the part of
    the season in Germany, a medieval custom. Although the trees used in
    celebration were not lit until well into the 17th century, still, they were
    considered lovely with paper roses, foil, gold, wafers, and dolls hanging from
    their boughs. As years passed and more and more of these objects were hung from
    the tree, a concern was given to the possibility of the tree tumbling from the
    weight. So German glassblowers began to produce lightweight balls to replace
    the heavier nuts, fruits, and other items previously used.

    *Yule Logs were
    thought to have brought luck into the home. Tradition says that the log must be
    picked from the owner’s land, or from a kindly neighbor’s parcel, and thrown
    into the hearth to burn for a solid twelve hours on Christmas Eve. If the log continues to burn for the required
    time, and loved ones sit round it sipping cider and telling stories, then
    surely good luck and blessings will befall the house and its inhabitants.

    *Candy Canes, another of the most famous sights and scents of
    Christmas, were first put upon Christmas trees as tempting sweets and rewards
    for good children. Originally white and straight, a choirmaster in
    England had some made to look like shepherd hooks, with bent ends. He passed
    them out to his children to help keep them interested and quiet during
    services, and after a while pink roses were baked into the confection. It
    wasn’t until the 20th century that the red stripes were added.

    *The Advent wreath
    began as a Lutheran custom in Eastern Germany. They were made round as a symbol
    of God’s eternity and of evergreens to represent immortality and the
    everlastingness of God. The four weeks of Advent are represented by three
    purple or violet candles for penance, sorrow, and longing, and one rose or pink
    candle to represent hope and joy. During the Christmas season, they are replaced by solid white candles.

    *Customs vary from
    country to country, much as the donor, as to the giving of gifts. Some teach
    that the gifts are given by elves, angels, the Christ child, three kings, St. Nicholas, or Santa Claus. In Brussels, living gifts are presented to
    friends and loved ones, such as birds, flowers, or pets. In the West Indies,
    hospitality or talent is exchanged as a sign of good will, not material gifts.

    *The story of the
    most-famous of gift givers varies from one source to another, with many
    opinions in between. The most popular version of the tale of St. Nicholas
    follows.

    Born in 280 AD in Asia
    Minor, St. Nicholas was a Christian Priest who later became a bishop. He
    traveled extensively and being of good wealth, was given to presenting gifts of
    money and other presents to perfect strangers, as well as acquaintances. Never
    wanting to be found out, he left his offerings in the homes of his receivers
    only after dark, when all were in bed asleep. And to this day, those who
    believe in Santa Claus are still warned that if even one peep or footstep is
    heard, St. Nicholas will not leave the treasured surprises that are anxiously
    awaited.

    In 303 AD, Roman
    emperor Diocletian commanded that St. Nicholas be honored as a god. The
    conscience of Christians in Rome would not allow the serving of another god,
    and this angered Diocletian so that he imprisoned even Nicholas himself, for
    refusing to be served as the emperor wished. He remained in prison until
    Constantine came to rule in 313, and returned to his position as Bishop of
    Myra. It is said he continued his wise and caring ways throughout his life,
    which ended on December 6, 343.

    By 450 AD, churches in
    Greece were being named in honor of Nicholas and by 800 AD he was recognized
    officially as a saint by the Catholic Church. By the 15th century, he was
    behind only Jesus and Mary as the most beloved religious figure—more than
    2000 chapels and monasteries were named in his honor.

    By the 1500s, the
    English began favoring Father Christmas, and as St. Nicholas’s popularity continued
    to grow, new and embellished stories of his true-to-life kindnesses, especially
    to children, were widely spread.

    “˜Santa Claus’ comes from the Dutch
    “˜Sinterklass,’ a pronunciation of St. Nicholas. As children the world
    over attempted to pronounce Sinterklass, the name was soon “˜Santa Klass,’
    and finally, Santa Claus. Quickly the bishop’s wardrobe of handsome cloak and
    bejeweled gloves were replaced with the now famous red suit, hat, and shiny
    black boots.

    • pax2u

      if you are going to post such a long cut and paste you should cite the author

      • jcrosby35

        Pax it would not make a bit of difference to you if I cited a dozen authors. Be happy at least this way you have something to complain about.

        • pax2u

          so why you not give credit to Sean W. McKiney?

  • jcrosby35

    Christmas Pagan Origions.

    Few people realize that the
    origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before
    anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

    No
    one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description,
    most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September,
    approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is
    very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records
    shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite
    unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate
    Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

    The
    answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of
    the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous
    partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of
    this feast.

    In
    Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years
    before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia,
    honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends
    of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season
    was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The
    festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the
    tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers
    and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From
    this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

    In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of
    Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of
    Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice,
    known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and
    was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured,
    the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to
    encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

    Huge
    Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means
    “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was
    considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began
    as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

    The
    tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter
    solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh
    winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again.
    Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often
    present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a
    religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and
    worshipping huge trees.

    In
    350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December
    25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible
    for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to
    Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their
    feasts would not be taken away from them.

    Christmas
    (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany,
    though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it
    first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian
    celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran
    minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the
    true tree of life, Christ.”

    The controversy continues
    even today in some fundamentalist sects.

    • pax2u

      Stephen Knapp

      December 24, 2013 ·

      Pagan Origins of Christmas
      Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan &
      celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.

      • jcrosby35

        Here you go Pax. One just for you. UCG.org.

        Christmas: The Curious Origins of a Popular Holiday

        article by Jerold Aust

        What do evergreen trees, reindeer, mistletoe and yule logs have to do with the birth of Jesus Christ? And was He really born on Dec. 25? You need to discover the real history of Christmas!

        Already the decorations are going up, the parties are being planned, the presents are being bought. Soon people around the world will again be celebrating Christmas.

        More than any other religious holiday, Christmas is associated with the name of Christ. The word Christmas is short for “Christ’s mass,” instituted by the Catholic Church and continued by many Protestant churches.

        Yet, curiously, the Bible records nothing about the apostles or early Church observing Christmas. History shows that it wasn’t celebrated until hundreds of years after Jesus Christ lived on earth, and long after the apostles had passed from the scene.

        Even more curious are the surprising circumstances under which Christmas came to be observed, and the many aspects of today’s Christmas celebrations—including the date, Dec. 25—that have nothing to do with Jesus’ birth , but do have a lot to do with ancient pre-Christian religions.

        What does history show us about the origins of the world’s most popular holiday? It’s quite an eye-opening story!

        New Catholic Encyclopedia on Christmas

        The New Catholic Encyclopedia, in discussing the unlikelihood of a Dec. 25 date for Jesus Christ’s birth and how that particular date was chosen, gives some insight into the holiday’s origins:

        “Why, then, were December 25 and January 6 chosen for the celebration of the Lord’s birth? Several theories are offered in explanation. Some actually believed December 25 was the birthday of Christ and tried to prove it by arguing from the conception of St. John the Baptist. Assuming, gratuitously, that Zachary was high priest and that the Day of Atonement fell on September 24, John would have been born on June 24 and Christ 6 months later, on December 25. This theory is now considered completely untenable.”

        Continuing in the same source: “L. Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was determined from March 25, the traditional date of the Crucifixion. If He died on March 25, He must also have been conceived on this date and thus have been born 9 months later on December 25. More recently H. Engberding has tried, unsuccessfully, to defend a comparable position.

        “According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener, developed by B. Botte, and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice, because on this day, as the sun began its return to the northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the birthday of the invincible sun.

        “Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome. This theory finds support in some of the Church Fathers’ contrasting the birth of Christ and the winter solstice. Though the substitution of Christmas for the pagan festival cannot be proved with certainty, it remains the most plausible explanation for the dating of Christmas” (1967, Vol. 3, p. 656, emphasis added throughout).

        This encyclopedia admits that arguments for a Dec. 25 birth of Jesus Christ simply aren’t credible (see “Biblical Evidence Shows Jesus Christ Wasn’t Born on Dec. 25 ,” ). It acknowledges that this date was chosen because of popular existing festivities honoring the ancient sun god Mithra and celebrating the winter solstice.

        Ancient origins of Christmas

        Man, Myth & Magic is an illustrated encyclopedia of mythology and religion. In its article on Christmas, we uncover a treasure trove of research material on this holiday’s origins and history.

        “Christmas has its origin in two ancient pagan festivals, the great Yule-feast of the Norsemen and the Roman Saturnalia. Extending from Advent, which begins on 30 November or the Sunday nearest to it, to Candlemas Day on 2 February, it was close enough to the winter solstice to acquire many of the associations of the Norse ceremony: the Yule-log, the evergreen decorations in houses and churches, even the Christmas feast itself. These elements were combined with the Saturnalia of the Romans to provide the basis for the early Christian festival.

        “During the Saturnalia, gifts were made by the wealthy to the poor in honour of the golden age of liberty when Saturn ruled the known world, and slaves were allowed to change places and clothing with their masters. They even elected their own mock king who, for the period of the festival, ruled as a despot. The Saturnalia involved the wildest debauchery, and was a festival worthy of Pan himself.

        “Naturally it came under heavy censure from the early Church and despite the fact that Jesus Christ and the saints gradually replaced the pagan deities it was long considered completely out of character with the Christian ideal. However, the festival was far too strongly entrenched in popular favour to be abolished, and the [Catholic] Church finally granted the necessary recognition, believing that if Christmas could not be suppressed it should be preserved in honour of the Christian God” (1995, Vol. 3, p. 418).

        Do you grasp what this is telling us? We saw earlier that the Dec. 25 date for Christmas came from ancient pre-Christian festivals. Here we see that the same ancient pagan celebrations honoring other gods were continued, with the Catholic Church simply relabeling the festivities and customs as Christian!

        Christmas banned for its paganism

        The Man, Myth & Magic encyclopedia reveals more of the strange story of Christmas as it continued after the ancient celebrations were adopted by the Catholic Church:

        “Once given a Christian basis the festival became fully established in Europe with many of its pagan elements undisturbed. It was only in the 4th century that 25 December was officially decreed to be the birthday of Christ, and it was another 500 years before the term Midwinter Feast was abandoned in favour of the word Christmas.

        “Even then on the Continent the festival continued to show many features inherited from the Saturnalia. In particular, the Feast of Fools was a wild debauch reminiscent of the pagan past. The Normans when they invaded England in 1066, introduced a Master of Ceremonies into the English Christmas. Known as the Lord of Misrule, his counterpart in Scotland was called the Abbot of Unreason.

        “. . . The undisguised pagan element in Christmas had often provoked criticism from extreme Protestants but the festival was not really affected by their beliefs until the Puritans came to power in the 17th century. Christmas was attacked as ‘the old heathens’ feasting day to Saturn their God’ and carols were forbidden. Finally, 25 December was proclaimed a fast day in 1644. The new rule was enforced by the army, which spent much of its time pulling down the greenery that festive ‘pagans’ had attached to their doors.

        “In Scotland the prohibition was enforced with great rigour. This anti-Christmas attitude spread to Puritan territories in America. The Church established special services for Christmas in Boston during the 1690s, but many civil authorities strongly opposed this move. And it was not until some 150 years later that Christmas first became a legal holiday in the United States, in Alabama in 1836” (pp. 418-419).

        Of course, Christmas has long been accepted throughout much of the world. Now it’s so popular—not to mention commercially important—that it’s almost inconceivable to realize that at one time it was outlawed for its pagan associations and practices!

        An ancient nativity celebration reborn

        The noted British anthropologist and scholar Sir James Frazer wrote a classic work on ancient myths and religious practices titled The Golden Bough. His findings on the ancient origins of our Christmas practices and customs are revealing:

        “. . . There can be no doubt that the Mithraic religion [the worship of Mithra, the Persian sun god, popular in the Roman Empire] proved a formidable rival to Christianity, combining as it did a solemn ritual with aspirations after moral purity and a hope of immortality. Indeed the issue of the conflict between the two faiths appears for a time to have hung in the balance. An instructive relic of the long struggle is preserved in our festival of Christmas, which the [Catholic] Church seems to have borrowed directly from its heathen rival.

        “In the Julian calendar the twenty-fifth of December was reckoned the winter solstice, and it was regarded as the Nativity of the Sun, because the day begins to lengthen and the power of the sun to increase from that turning-point of the year. The ritual of the nativity, as it appears to have been celebrated in Syria and Egypt, was remarkable. The celebrants retired into certain inner shrines, from which at midnight they issued with a loud cry, ‘The Virgin has brought forth! The light is waxing!’

        “The Egyptians even represented the new-born sun by the image of an infant which on his birthday, the winter solstice, they brought forth and exhibited to his worshippers. No doubt the Virgin who thus conceived and bore a son on the twenty-fifth of December was the great Oriental [i.e., Middle Eastern] goddess whom the Semites called the Heavenly Virgin or simply the Heavenly Goddess; in Semitic lands she was a form of Astarte [also known as Easter].

        “Now Mithra was regularly identified by his worshippers with the Sun, the Unconquered Sun, as they called him; hence his nativity also fell on the twenty-fifth of December. The Gospels say nothing as to the day of Christ’s birth, and accordingly the early Church did not celebrate it.

        “In time, however, the Christians of Egypt came to regard the sixth of January as the date of the Nativity, and the custom of commemorating the birth of the Savior on that day gradually spread until by the fourth century it was universally established in the East.

        “But at the end of the third or the beginning of the fourth century the Western [Catholic] Church, which had never recognized the sixth of January as the day of the Nativity, adopted the twenty-fifth of December as the true date, and in time its decision was accepted also by the Eastern Church. At Antioch the change was not introduced till about the year 375 A.D.” (1993, p. 358).

        Sir James Frazer studied the thread of Christmas customs and practices through ancient times and reached an inescapable conclusion: Christmas is but a relic of the worship of the pagan god known by the Persians and Romans as Mithra or Mithras, relabeled with a Christian name.

        A pagan festival relabeled

        Why did the early Catholic Church adopt and relabel this ancient pagan celebration? Frazer explains:

        “What considerations led the ecclesiastical authorities to institute the festival of Christmas? The motives for the innovation are stated with great frankness by a Syrian writer, himself a Christian. ‘The reason,’ he tells us, ‘why the fathers transferred the celebration of the sixth of January to the twenty-fifth of December was this. It was a custom of the heathen to celebrate on the same twenty-fifth of December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity.

        “In these solemnities and festivities the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the [Catholic] Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnized on that day and the festival of the Epiphany on the sixth of January. Accordingly, along with this custom, the practice has prevailed of kindling fires till the sixth.’

        “The heathen origin of Christmas is plainly hinted at, if not tacitly admitted, by Augustine when he exhorts his Christian brethren not to celebrate that solemn day like the heathen on account of the sun, but on account of him who made the sun. In like manner [Pope] Leo the Great rebuked the pestilent belief that Christmas was solemnized because of the birth of the new sun, as it was called, and not because of the nativity of Christ.

        “Thus it appears that the Christian [Catholic] Church chose to celebrate the birthday of its Founder on the twenty-fifth of December in order to transfer the devotion of the heathen from the Sun to him who was called the Sun of Righteousness” (1993, pp. 358-359).

        The truth about Christmas’s origins is simple: One of the ancient world’s most popular celebrations—a festival that originated in sun worship and honoring pagan gods—was renamed and reborn as traditional Christianity’s most popular celebration.

        What would Jesus say?

        Today, would Jesus Christ recognize the religion that professes to follow Him?

        Think about it: If you lived in the Holy Land in the time of Jesus and you observed Christmas, you would be alone, for no true Christian ever kept Christmas during Jesus’ life on earth. Further, if you saw Jesus or the apostles walking through the narrow passageways of Old Jerusalem or the dusty roads of Judea and you invited them to join in your Christmas celebration, what would they say?

        Since Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews:13:8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.), and all Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy:3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:), they might remind you of what God’s Word says about incorporating pagan customs into your worship:

        “. . . Do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods . . . Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it” (Deuteronomy:12:30-32 [30] Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
        [31] Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
        [32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
        ).

        Jesus Himself might repeat to you what He said to the Pharisees, who considered their traditions and customs more important than obeying God’s Word: “These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew:15:8-9 [8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
        [9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
        ). Christmas, mentioned nowhere in the Bible, is a “commandment” of men.

        The apostle Paul might remind you of the words he wrote to Church members in Corinth, a city steeped in pagan religious practices: “. . . What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

        “And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God . . . Therefore ‘Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you.’ . . . Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians:6:14-17 [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
        [15] And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
        [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
        [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
        ;7:1).

        Does it really matter?

        Sadly, for the bulk of modern Christianity these scriptures—which help define what true Christianity is and is not—mean very little. Most of the 2 billion professing Christians on earth today observe Christmas and other extrabiblical holidays without ever giving them a second thought.

        Most will never take the time to look into their beliefs to learn their true origins, though information such as that found in this article can be found in virtually any modern library or on the Internet. Though the basic facts about the origins of Christmas are spelled out in almost any reputable encyclopedia, most people will not look long and hard at their traditions and customs to see if they square with the Bible.

        It’s especially ironic to see the articles that appear in many newspapers each year —often written by well-intentioned but misguided clergymen—who recite the pagan origins of Christmas and its trappings but conclude that it doesn’t matter because it’s now celebrated for a good cause. We have to wonder how they can reconcile that view with the clear scriptures quoted above.

        What about your beliefs? Jesus Christ says that those who worship God “must worship [Him] in spirit and truth” (John:4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.). Are your beliefs and worship firmly grounded in biblical truth, or in ancient fables? GN

        • pax2u

          the church of Herbert W Armstrong, are you a Saturday Sabbath Keeper?

          • jcrosby35

            Where in the world did you get that?

            http://www.ucg.org/holidays-and-holy-days/christmas-curious-origins

            It is the Good News Mag.
            And no get it right I have nothing to do with Armstrong or 7th day advent. Pay attention Pax I explained all that to you before.

          • pax2u

            from the United Church of God,

            The United Church of God, an International Association (UCGIA or simply UCG)[2] is a Christian religious denomination based in the United States, an offshoot of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) founded by Herbert W. Armstrong. It is one of manySabbatarian Churches of God to split from WCG.

          • jcrosby35

            Interesting. Anyway no I nothing to do with them other than the study.

          • pax2u

            so you have nothing to do with the posts that you provide?,

          • jcrosby35

            Pax that is a dumb question. I provide information on numbers of posts. And as a result it is all thoroughly gone over.
            If you want data then get off your a$$ and look it up instead of asking someone else to do it for you. Do your own research.
            And refrain from dumb questions.

          • pax2u

            so you make a post without a citation, when you are forced to identify the source you are now embarrassed by the source.

            you make statements and now you can not defend your sources

          • jcrosby35

            Pax I make no apology for posting information without citation. It is a quick easy way to get it done while moving on. Now as I said before if you have a problem with that then feel free to get off your a$$ and do your own research. Now if you have nothing else to pi$$ and moan about I have work to do.

          • pax2u

            obviously, why apologize for an organization when you do not agree with their theology?

            sorry I am not against Christianity or Christmas my research is the Bible, try it sometime

          • jcrosby35

            Well fine. Stick to the Bible and stop asking everyone else to do your leg work for you.

          • pax2u

            Then you deny your crazy Christmas is pagan story from the Herbert W Armstrong United Church of Christ

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What did your teachers or professors say when you tried to do this in school?

          • pax2u

            what school?, jcrosby35 probably believes that education is a Papal trick,

  • pax2u

    tis the season as the attack on Christmass, and Christians has begun
    Merry Christmass to all

  • Wes

    Good for Kirk Cameron. As to Gendron, unless he wants to claim that virtually all of Christianity was in heresy until the 1,500’s (and good luck with that), then Catholics are Christians. Gendron might also want to remember that were it not for the Catholic Church, he would not have his Bible.

    And yes, there is a reasonable case to be made for December 25th – the traditional date – as Christmas.

    http://taylormarshall.com/2012/12/yes-christ-was-really-born-on-december.html

  • Dan

    Your post was too long I didn’t have time to read it. My point is that it’s up to the parents and no other parents should be telling their parents what to do. I support Kirk Cameron and what he say believing in Santa Claus is innocent it’s not a lie. Those are memories for a child to hold dear the rest of their life. If a Christian wants to be a fundamentalist Christian that’s their business. It should not be telling other Christians how to worship how to believe and how to parent. Mind your own business. If God meant us to mind each others business we would not be living the way we are .
    I’m sorry Christians do not have the right to judge each other that is sin. But you do have the right to shun and that’s what Christians are courage to do according to Scripture. No matter how you are living your life the best you can let it according to Scripture there’s going to be some Christians going to tell you you can do it better. that’s like saying no matter how much money you make there’s always room to make more money. I know poor people that are better Christians the rich people I know gay people that are better character accretion than any Christian that I know. only God has the right to judge when you meet him someday.I think a lot of Christians get the term criticize and judge confused. I see a lot more criticizing among Christians then I do judging. because most Christians understand that judging a sin. Critisizing
    somebody is letting them know that you don’t agree with what they’re doing judging someone is laying down a sentence.

    • Frank

      Paul layed down a sentence on Peter. All through the bible there are many other instances of similarity in other situations. Many times God says to judge other Christians on certain matters. You are in error of your understanding of what God says about this through His entire Scripture.

  • Michael McCleary

    The narrow minded bigotry of these comments only reaffirm my veiw that the Protestant trinity is Ignorance, Arrogance, and Pride. . . and makes me very happy to have swam the Tiber to the Church Christ died to give us.

    • pax2u

      the vast majority of those who hate and lie about the Catholic Church will never profess to belonging to a Christian Denomination, there is an occasional Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist, but most Baptists are good Christians like Billy Graham

  • onearmsteve

    Faith alone? Only place I find faith alone in the Bible,a Catholic book that we gave to the world (historical fact) is the verse “not by faith alone”. So how can a ‘bible alone” (a teaching that Luther created out of thin air) follower say “I believe in faith alone bc the bible says ‘not by faith alone'”? Contradictions in Protestantism. Thank God for God’s Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ & outside of there is no salvation. We pray for all to come home on this feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, an image painted by God of His mother

    • Peter Leh

      anytime i attend a mass i feel i am betraying the betrayed. seems god could have ask the pope why the hell he is moving around and protecting perpetrators. Nor will i ever give money to help pay off the legal fees and court awards the true church as been found guilty.

      If i were ever to “come home” the worldwide continual scandal proved to me the CC is not the true church.

      You can have the church…. i’ll take Jesus.

  • Truthhurts24

    I am sick of the adoration of this satanic holiday there is nothing holy about it at all when you have parents allowing their children to worship a false god telling them he will give them everything they wish if they are good that year or nothing if they were bad makes Satan happy every time. Christmas is a snare to bewitch children and adults into the worship of Satan ignorantly just like how he deceived eve in the garden making evil look attractive. Kirk has been a victim of this satanic holiday and it is leading him that satanic Christmas spirit into darkness he needs deliverance.

    My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      Can you tell me the denomination or church where this is taught?

      • pax2u

        the response to your question is the sound of crickets

      • Truthhurts24

        I don’t follow any church or denomination only the word of God and the Holy spirit. Christmas is falsehood and a satanic pagan holiday that comes right out of Babylon because Christ never told anyone to worship his birth in the month of December or put a tree in their house. Satan claus is not in the bible at all he is a fictional character created by man therefore this holiday should not be recognized as a day to be celebrated it is paganism.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          What kind of church or assembly of believers do you go to for worship? I’m sorry, but you will have to do a bit better than “because I said so.”

          • Truthhurts24

            Its obvious you couldn’t comprehend what I just wrote because I clearly stated that I follow Gods word and the Holy spirit nothing else. Christmas is pagan no matter how many people want to make it seem holy. There is nothing biblical about Christmas and it never was celebrated by Christ himself nor his disciples but many are ignorant like yourself who continue to follow man made traditions not Gods word.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            So what if you “clearly stated that I follow Gods word and the Holy spirit.” When held to further scrutiny it is equally clear that what you claim to have been inspired with does not wash historically or theologically.

            The demonization of Christmas as “pagan” and/or “Catholic” is an entirely nuanced phenomenon that has no foundation in reality. It is premised upon the anti-Catholic bigotry and historical ignorance of Seventh Day Adventists and other like-minded fundamentalist Protestants.

  • Rosavera

    Gendron again finds fault and because he is no longer in the Catholic faith but must now find ways to justify why he left. He doesn’t like that the Catholic church is the original church and all other denominations came after. All the titles the Pope has are because that is how we address him, he is a father figure, and yes he does represent our Lord here on earth as our elder. How awful to see this man, Gendron, under the guise of ”telling the truth” is really trying to demean other Christians. He should look at Luther and see how wrong this man was and the sins he committed and the real reason Luther left the Catholic church.

  • BarkingDawg

    I heard that Kirk’s movie was rated one of the worst ever.

    • pax2u

      worse than the left behind movies?

  • Adrian Vincent Yanez

    The author of this vacuous article sites Pope Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries in Plano, Texas as her authority. I don’t remember anywhere in the bible that Pope Mike was given that authority by Jesus, the Holy Spirit or the Easter Bunny.

  • Jody

    Honestly? how tired is all this Catholic bashing? yeah, there are some problems within the Catholic church, I’d defy ANY organisation of over a billion people NOT to have a few issues, either with rogue elements, dissent, even the kind of people that give the whole thing a bad name.
    I’m Catholic, but I don’t feel the need to be all in-your-face about it, and I have to say, from my side of the fence there’s some pretty wacky practices being carried out among certain non-Catholic denominations of Christianity.
    Disturbingly, I’ve noticed a lot of these elements even beginning to creep into the lives of a few people from my local church, the whole “evangelical” movement (complete with it’s disingenuous TV “ministers”, ever with their hands out for cash) “God needs YOUR money….ALL of it, call now”, speaking it tongues, people falling on the floor, taking a bag of snakes to church, all of these things, from my perspective seem pretty zany to say the VERY least, I’d even go as far as to suggest that a lot of it is potentially harmful, that said, I’m not about to condemn anyone for practicing it, if that’s where they find spiritual solace, who am I to judge?
    If Christian churches, Christians and their leaders can’t bring themselves to accept that people who choose to worship in different ways are NO LESS CHRISTIAN FOR IT, then really, I’m afraid I don’t see much of a future for the Christian faith in humanity’s future, and make NO mistake, there are most CERTAINLY other “faiths” (some of them nothing more than cults) who are MORE than happy to pick up the disenfranchised souls that are alienated from Christianity through all this pointless bickering.

  • Victoria DiAgnello

    The right recipe?
    Celebrate the birth of Jesus, sing Christ centered carols, and use the opportunity to evangelize the lost at this time of year. We do that all year anyway. We throw in a feast as well, no sin in that. But the point is… Jesus!. Not saving pagan festivals draped in Christian decor, not tinsel and commercialism, consumerism, materialism, eating, drinking and being merry, winter fun, or a santa that stands for the word of faith heresy by rewarding the ‘good’ with material wealth and not the ‘bad,’ and the santa lie that sets kids up for the ‘it’s all a fairy tale’ idea. Nor is it about abandoning all the celebrations about Jesus’ birth just because someone hijacked the holiday. So get real and celebrate what is God-given about it. Since we don’t know the exact day, we can celebrate it all year. If you are not sure what to focus on, go and read John 3; 16. Remember, the pagans, the hebrew roots movement, the merchants, and the atheists all want to rob people of this by some means. So let’s do just the opposite of what they want to see. Another thing I do this time of year to spread cheer is to wish everyone a…
    Merry Christmas!
    And you know what? No one can complain. Why? Because people run around saying ‘happy halloween’ without asking if we celebrate that (which I promptly tell them I don’t because it’s evil). But you don’t see any atheists all up in arms over that, do you? So I get out my Merry Christmas loudspeaker either way…
    : D

  • Frank
  • Frank
  • Just_me_and_God

    WHO STARTED YOUR CHURCH?

    The Catholic Church – 33 AD. Founded by God the Son in the person of Jesus Christ. Our Lord named Peter the future leader of His Church, when He said to him, “Thou art Peter (Rock), and upon this rock I will build MY Church. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…” (Matthew 16:19).

    The Lutheran Church –1517 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Martin Luther, a German ex-monk of the Roman Catholic Church, who violated his sacred vows of both obedience and celibacy. Luther created a brand new protestant bible by throwing out 7 books of the Bible’s Old Testament, that he personally didn’t agree with, and added the word “alone” after the word “faith”, in Romans 3:28, in order to make the verse agree with HIS VIEW of WHAT HE THOUGHT IT SHOULD HAVE SAID (faith alone). This alteration of sacred scripture directly contradicts James 2:24.
    Catholic Old Testament (46 books)
    These are the books that Luther tossed out.
    1. The Wisdom of Solomon
    2. Tobit (Tobias)
    3. Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
    4. Judith
    5. 1st Maccabees
    6. 2nd Maccabees
    7. Baruch (with the Letter of Jeremiah as the 6th Chapter)
    Protestant Old Testament (39 books)
    http://www.catholicbible101.com/thebible73or66books.htm

    The first Bible ever printed was the Gutenberg Bible, in 1455, sixty two years BEFORE Luther started his Reformation in 1517. And the 7 books that Luther tossed aside, are indeed in that Bible. You can check all of this out for yourself, click here. http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/gutenberg/web/pgsdbl560/2_335336_162v163r.html
    Luther also called the Catholic Church “the whore of Babylon”, and he said that the Pope was the antichrist (someone who denies that Jesus is God).

    The Anabaptist Church – 1520 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Nicholas Storch, and Thomas Münzer, who were former Lutherans. The Anabaptists rejected infant baptism and were denounced by Martin Luther. This “reformation of the reformation” is proof positive that the doctrine of “scripture alone” is false. Otherwise, there wouldn’t have been more than one interpretation of scripture and no need for an Anabaptist Church that totally ignores Luke 18:15-17.

    The Swiss Reformed Church – 1523 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Huldrych Zwingli in Switzerland

    The Mennonite Church – 1525 AD. Founded in by men, Grebel, Mantz, and Blaurock, in Switzerland, as an offshoot of the Anabaptists. It derived its name from Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest.

    The Anglican Church – 1534 AD. Founded BY a MAN, King Henry VIII, as a direct result of the Pope not granting him a divorce from Catherine of Aragon. Many a Catholic priest was tortured and killed as a result of the very aroused Henry trying to find another young maiden for his pleasure. The Queen of England is the current head of the Anglican Church. (AKA “Church of England”)

    Calvinism – 1530-1536 AD. Founded BY a MAN, John Calvin in Switzerland (also called the Reformed tradition or the Reformed faith)

    The Presbyterian Church – 1560 AD. Founded BY a MAN, John Knox, in Scotland. Based on the personal beliefs of a man, John Calvin, which include predestination, no free will in humans, & total depravity in mankind

    The Unitarian Church – 1568 AD. Started in Poland, but died out. It was soon replaced BY a MAN, John Biddle, in 1645 AD. The Unitarians do not believe in the Trinitarian God.

    The Congregationalist Church (The Puritans) – 1583 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Robert Brown, in Holland. Broke away from the Church of England. Brown rejected, among other things, the authority of bishops. One Puritan, named Oliver Cromwell, got involved in the English Civil War, and overthrew Charles I in 1646. Cromwell and the British government were also responsible for the subjugation and killing of hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics, who were also forbidden to say Mass, wear green, and sing patriotic songs.

    The Baptist Church – 1606 AD. Founded BY a MAN, John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam, as an offshoot of the Mennonites. Baptists reject infant baptism as contrary to the Scriptures, and accept immersion as the sole valid mode of baptism.

    The Dutch Reformed Chuch – 1628 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Michaelis Jones in the Netherlands

    The Quakers – 1647 AD. Founded BY a MAN, George Fox, in England. Also called The Society of Friends, although they originally called themselves “Children of Light”. They acknowledge absolutely no authority higher than what Fox called the “inner light” of personal revelation.

    The Amish Church – 1693 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Jacob Amman, a Swiss Bishop. Also a break-away from the Mennonite Church. His followers were called the “Amish.” While similar to the Mennonites, they differ in language, dress, and interpretation of the Bible.

    The Methodist Church – 1739 AD. Founded by men, John and Charles Wesley, in England. The Wesley brothers were originally Anglican ministers who started a revival movement that eventually became Methodism. Yet another “reformation of the reformation”.

    The Episcopalian Church – 1784 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Samuel Seabury in the American Colonies & is an offshoot of the Church of England. They believe in women priests and bishops, artificial birth control, and they accept homosexuality as being normal and good in spite of Romans 1:26-27. The Episcopalian Church is currently undergoing a 21rst Century reformation of itself, with individual congregations breaking away from their own hierarchy over the question of scriptural inerrancy concerning homosexuality. Another proof that the doctrine of “scripture alone” without an infallible Magesterium to interpret it based on sacred Tradition is false. It seems that the Episcopal Church is more concerned with going along with the current trend of society than it is in being true to what scripture actually says about homosexuality.

    The Evangelical Church – 1803 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Jacob Albright, originally a Methodist, who broke away and founded his own church.

    The Mormon Church – 1829 AD. Also call themselves “Latter Day Saints”, was founded BY a MAN, Joseph Smith in Palmyra, New York, in 1829. They are polytheists who someday hope to become a ‘god’ of their own planet, after death. They believe that, in their version of “God the Father” was a good Mormon on another planet, what hey call called “Kolob”. It is supposed to be: “The god-planet where all gods come from” and their“Jesus” became the god of our planet. They also believe that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers on Kolob.
    The Seventh Day Adventists – 1831 AD. Founded BY a MAN, William Miller in New York. Based on his study of the prophecy of Daniel 8:14, Miller calculated that Jesus would return to earth sometime between 1843 and 1844. This prediction is in spite of the fact that the bible says that no one will be able to predict when the Second Coming of Jesus will be (Matthew 24:36).

    Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1872 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Charles Taze Russell, as the “Millennial Dawnists.” In 1931, Judge Rutherford, his successor, decided that henceforth they would be called, Witnesses of Jehovah, or Jehovah’s Witness. The JWs deny the divinity of Christ, the resurrection of the body, and refuse to take blood transfusions.

    The Christian Scientists – 1879 AD. Founded BY a WOMAN, Mary Baker Eddy in Massachusetts. They also refuse blood transfusions and medical care, in spite of the fact that the gospel writer Luke was a physician.

    Assemblies of God – 1901 AD. Founded BY a MAN, Charles Parham, in Topeka Kansas. They believe in the Baptism of the Spirit, miracle healings, and speaking in tongues.

    There are currently over 33,000 Protestant denominations!
    None of which, now make war upon the other, ever since the end of the Thirty Years’ War, from 1618 – 1648!

    Christians no longer make war on other Christians, just because “They do not believe as we do”, however, in Islam it has always been this way!

    Within 8 years of Martin Luther creating the Lutheran Church, there were three more Protestant churches, (Four Protestant Churches in all) They were the Lutherans – 1517, Anabaptist – 1520, Swiss Reformed – 1523, Mennonite – 1525, then later in 1534 Henry the 8th formed the Anglican Church, only 17 years after the original “Reformation”.
    They all made war on each other and with the Catholic Church, killing each other and burning each others churches.
    Luther recanted on his death bed, his involvement in starting the entire Protestant movement. He told his Mother to rejoin the Catholic Church.
    Throughout his entire lifetime he continued to Honor Mary as the Mother of God, just as Catholics do.
    Now according to some sources, there are 33 thousand “Protestant” Churches.
    What gave any of them the GOD ALONE “right” to start any new “church”?

    In their “Encyclopedia of Wars”, authors Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod attempt a comprehensive listing of wars in history. They document 1763 wars overall, of which 123 (7%) have been classified to involve a religious conflict. William T. Cavanaugh in his Myth of Religious Violence (2009) argues that what is termed “religious wars” is a largely “Western dichotomy”, arguing that all wars that are classed as “religious” have a secular (economic or political) ramifications. Similar opinions were expressed as early as the 1760s, during the Seven Years’ War, widely recognized to be “religious” in motivation, noting that the warring factions were not necessarily split along confessional lines as much as along secular interests.

    Not even George Orwell could have come up with anything that tops this scenario
    Leftism is now officially a “religion,” and that its proponents desire a “blasphemy statute” to ban any serious discussion of left-wing doctrines and their consequences as “hate speech.”

    • Frank

      Some biblical history you are missing

      http://www.thebereancall.org/content/october-1995-q-and-a-3

      And there is a lot you are missing.

      • Just_me_and_God

        Not missing this, because it is non-factual!
        Good try at bringing garbage into the discussion!

        Just read about the start of your “church” and give me some FACTS as to how it LEGITIMATLY came to be under GOD!

        • Frank

          It is absolutely factual. I happened to have studied for several years the original language the NT was written, the origins of the manuscripts, codexs, etc., the history of the bible. I have had several Greek NTs which include translators editions. Here is another fact the popes themselves claim to be Antichrist. The meaning in the original language is wonderful to learn for bible study. Very informative.

          • Just_me_and_God

            “the popes themselves claim to be Antichrist”

            Go from the presence of a foolish man, when you do not perceive in him the lips of knowledge. — Proverbs 14:7

            Goodbye fool!

          • Frank

            The god of this world has blinded the mind of nonbelievers. The evidence is all over RCC documents, papal bulls and artifacts. And the RCC even posts the evidences on the Internet. And there is a lot. It’s all in Latin.

  • Just_me_and_God

    “Faith Alone” ?
    In the entire Matthew 25:31-46 the Lord Jesus Himself, repeats the phrase in various ways FOUR TIMES, concerning Hungry, Thirsty, Stranger, Clothes, Sick, and Prison
    “I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.”
    Yet, you believe that by “By Faith Alone we are Saved” Do you think Jesus kidding? Did He just want to hear Himself talk? Is this not in your Bible too? Are you going to risk your Salvation on just ONE edited word of Holy Scripture?
    Jesus said to the goats: “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
    Martin Luther was WRONG! It is Faith AND Works that will Save you, or do you want to be among the goats? God gave us the entire Bible to live by, and you’re going to Live or Die on just ONE ADDED WORD?

    Similar Scriptural thought is in Isaiah 32:6, Isaiah 58:6-8, Isaiah 58:7, Isaiah 58:10 and many other places in the Holy Bible.

    W. C. Fields, a lifetime agnostic, was discovered reading a Bible on his deathbed. “I’m looking for loopholes!” he explained.
    Do you think “Alone” is some kind of a loophole?
    If so… you will be alone with your tormentors!

    New International Version (NIV)
    Matthew 25:40-46 The Sheep and the Goats
    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

  • Frank

    If you think the RCC is Christian then read this. It provides a lot of links to catholic websites for documents and pictures, etc.. Its a very long read but well worth it.

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1032290/pg1

    • pax2u

      what is your denomination frank?

      • BarkingDawg

        Hate

        • pax2u

          true

      • Frank

        I don’t claim allegiance to man. And certainly not the anti-christal RCC.

        • pax2u

          ? what? anti Christal?

          no wonder that you are filled with hatred of Christians

          • Frank

            RCC is not Christian. Open your eyes and see. The evidence is there that the RCC is anti-christal and the pope himself claims to be.

          • pax2u

            so how were the protests of your fred phelps westboro baptist church at the funerals of Soldiers who died for America today?

          • Frank

            I have nothing to do with them nor have I ever claimed to. Open your eyes.

  • railhead

    As far as the article and Kirk Cameron, any Christian knows bearing false witness is a sin, therefore telling your child that there is some made up Santa Claus is obviously wrong. Not to mention the idolatry of saying that someone besides God “knows if you’ve been bad or good.” It’s so funny, because Santa is exactly how the world views God–good boys and girls go to heaven, bad boys and girls go to hell, but at the end of the day everyone is good and gets a stocking full of goodies.

    Likewise the Catholic church teaches that you must have faith and good deeds to go to heaven, and calls people who believe the Bible when it says “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:14) Anathema. Yet, when you ask them how many people will go to heaven they all say most people will go to heaven, or they will just go to a made up “temporary hell”.

    Meanwhile, the Bible teaches few people are saved, and that most people are on their way to “everlasting punishment”. Most boys and girls are going to get “coal in their stockings” when God sends them to the lake of fire and brimstone FOREVER.

    So you can add the folly of the “Santa Claus” view of God to the list of reasons not to include Santa Claus in your Christmas traditions. Of course, most people actually believe the Santa Claus view of God, so it continues.

  • They_Want_Us_Divided

    Catholicism is the ORIGINAL Christians.. The Vatican and “World Domination”? Hunh? The Vatican has no military (well, not earthly, that is), is a whopping 109 acres, has absolutely no voting power in any international affairs, and holds just that of a permanent observer w/in the U.N…. Add that the Vatican donates nearly every extra penny recvd… Not looking so good for the World Domination claim.. Devil is quite deceiving, sigh..

    Now, it would be truly a blessing if the Church could dominate the World, but that can not happen until our Lord Jesus returns.. Before knocking on Kirk Cameron, for truly humbeling himself, and seeking God’s TRUTH, & not that is man’s and the devil, perhaps read the early Church Fathers for yourself.. You will find that Catholic was used in describing the Christian Church that Christ created as early as 107AD (& the way St. Ignatius wrote the letter, as his way to be martyred, it was very familiar. A known word among True Christians)- of, and it is also used in the original Greek of scripture.. You will find the full belief in the True Presence, Body/ Soul/ Divinity, in the Holy Eucharist (just as one sees in scripture, if only they open their eyes). You will see the confessing of sins to a Priest, w/ the Priest giving forgiveness (just as Jesus gave the Church Authority to do). You will see the Mass of the Holy Catholic Church. The earthly leadership, given by Jesus, upon the Seat of Peter (just as God did throughout the Old Testamant, as well)..

    You will find deeper truth and meaning, as it is the Catholic Church that Jesus gave full Authority to teach/ guide/ & feed us.. NOT the Bible (which the Catholic Church also gave the World). And it is the Catholic Church that God promised to be w/ till the end of time.. Come Home… Read the Early Church Fathers, and have the scales fall off your eyes..

    • pax2u

      the Catholic Church has no military but it has something stronger, faith in Jesus Christ

      I remember Stalin asking “how many divisions does the Pope have?”

      Where is the Soviet Union today?

      and the Catholic Church remains with 1.2 billions souls for Jesus Christ, and 2000 years and the gates of hades shall not prevail

  • They_Want_Us_Divided

    And.. Where exactly is it in the Bible that the Bible is the “only Safeguard from error”? The verses references has nothing to do w/ the Bible.. It was the Church that taught, and the scriptures of the Jews which the people looked through (as Jesus, the Messiah, is completely described and foretold w/in the Jewish scriptures).

    And if the Bible is the only safeguard (again, nowhere is this authority given to the Bible.. Not even once.. And for very good reason), WHY is it that every protestant denomination has its own truth & revelation, often contradictory to the others (which God can not be a hypocrite nor contradict Himself). Each having their own interpretation, even individuals w/in. Or you follow a minister, that has no authority, but is just a man. If the Bible had such Authority, the dogmatic teachings would be identical in every Church… It’s not.. Nowhere close…

    • Frank

      Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

      • pax2u

        John 1

        1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.…

        • Frank

          Actually: in beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and God was the Word.

          • pax2u

            is only one translation the true word of God?

          • Frank

            You had added parts not in what was quoted is all. As an interesting side note in the NWT which is the JWs mistranslation it still says very clearly that Jesus is God. But that is getting off topic.

          • pax2u

            sorry, I only posted a translation,

            which translation is the only one that is true?

          • Frank

            Sorry no I meant you had posted part of the 2nd verse which I had not quoted. I do not hold to KJV only.

          • pax2u

            I apologize , I thought that I made a translation mistake

    • Frank

      πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη

      • pax2u

        ANY scripture inspired and profitable for doctrine to control for correction to this chastening justice

    • Frank

      τουτο πρωτον γινωσκοντες οτι πασα προφητεια γραφης ιδιας επιλυσεως ου γινεται ου γαρ θεληματι ανθρωπου ηνεχθη ποτε προφητεια αλλ υπο πνευματος αγιου φερομενοι ελαλησαν αγιοι θεου ανθρωποι

    • Frank

      As a final one though I could list a lot more. A lot more.

      6ταυτα δε αδελφοι μετεσχηματισα εις εμαυτον και απολλω δι υμας ινα εν ημιν μαθητε το μη υπερ ο γεγραπται φρονειν ινα μη εις υπερ του ενος φυσιουσθε κατα του ετερου

  • Peter Leh

    I remember my grandfather not having a christmas tree because it was “pagan.” yet he could not explain the reason for the alter in his church or steeple. I wonder how many religious things we do with “pagan origins” without knowing?

    I say Satan has no patents. the most pagan thing satan owned that god now resides in by his spirit is the christian. if that does not prove the powerlessness of pagan symbols and the freedom to use them to honor god, i don;t know what will. 🙂

  • Martin

    Mike Gendron is so funny! I get a kick out of how he tries to sound knowledgeable about the Church.

  • John Mark IB

    truly sad though folks is/are several issues, the main thrust is how the once seemingly mighty have fallen, sad how Cameron should be really preaching and teaching a true gospel, not endorsing the false Gospel of Rome, and the end times one world coming soon false religion of antichrist, as well, Luther who also sadly (who was a Jew hater by the way, didn’t he get Romans 9? Paul would go to hell to see his people saved if he could) and all the protestant denominations are but step daughters of the false roman system, and the roman church, which has the blood of the martyrs and true believers on it’s hands and is still waging war to this day , even so called southern Baptists (of which I came out of as well as the IFB) and liberty college etc., give the true Baptists a bad name in general, but they are all eating the worldly contemporary false teachings and permissiveness of the day, it’s all good mentality just draw them in with whatever works etc., ridiculous!! to the Catholics who may get offended at the truth then I say this, if my history showed me that my denomination as a Baptist was the one who took over from fallen political Rome and became this huge religious church that killed believers for simply wanting the Bible in their native tongue as Jesus proclaimed to do and my Baptist history was the one shedding blood I’d leave it immediately and not be offended when shown how unbiblical it is, but Cameron is just making true Christians look stupid and so retarded and as always gullible willing to follow man made fable and lies as truth going along with any doctrine, I used to think he was pretty cool he and Ray Comfort doing the great work of spreading the gospel but they’ve also gone away from GOD’S preserved Words in the KJV as well, so falling for the Egyptian Alexandrian false texts will fail every time, please see the following for truth and help and at least Gendron is attempting to help to see catholics saved which is great!! also see Mike Gendron’s site mainly dealing with catholic issues and stuff in a loving way http://proclaimingthegospel.org/
    also see and especially the following for all denominations and great deep theology biblically sound and for salvation sites
    http://faithsaves.net
    http://pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/
    definitely had to deal with the do I lie to my kids about the false santa guy or what?
    and decided to not teach them a lie, and have them grow up to question why we lie about santa and expect them to believe us about other issues as well??
    may you all have a blessed day and Merry Christmas and a healthy Happy New Year

    • Pax Humana

      The “King James Version Only” doctrine, let alone ANY version of the Holy Scriptures that is told as the ONLY one, are ALL of Lucifer and that ONLY YAHWEH EL ELOHIM Himself is the True Word, period, full stop!