Ten Commandments Judge: City ‘Foolish’ for Allowing Atheist, Wiccan Prayers at Council Meetings

Roy MooreHUNTSVILLE, Ala. — Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore, also known as the Ten Commandments Judge, is reprimanding the city of Huntsville for its prayer policy at city council meetings, which allows for atheists and Wiccans to lead the invocation.

“We’re having prayers [by] atheists? We’re having Wiccans say prayers? How foolish can we be?” he stated before the Madison County Republican Men’s Club this past week, according to AL.com.

Moore said that this shift away from Christianity is hand-in-hand with other controversial attempts to “change what doesn’t need to be changed” in America, such as the push for societal acceptance of homosexuality and the defense of transgenderism, also called gender confusion.

“I’ll say this in Huntsville because I think it needs to be said in Huntsville,” he stated. “There is one God and it’s the God on which this nation was founded. And it’s the God of the Scriptures. I don’t need applause for that. It’s a truth in history and it’s a truth in law. And we’re trying to change that.”

As previously reported, a Wiccan priest opened the Huntsville City Council meeting last month in an effort to make the prayers that open each session more diverse, appeasing church-state separation groups.

“O gentle goddess and loving god, we thank you for the beauties and the wonders of the day that you have given to us, and for the opportunity we have this evening to assemble here and work together to make Huntsville a better city for all of its residents,” Blake Kirk, a “Priest of the Oak, Ash and Thorn tradition of Wicca” declared at the meeting.

The majority of prayers being offered at Huntsville’s meetings have been Christian as the area is largely populated by Christian churches. However, in 2012, the Madison,Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation threatened to file suit over the prayers predominantly in Jesus’ name, and further contended that the practice of any kind of prayer at city council meetings was “unnecessary, inappropriate and divisive.”

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In a compromise on the matter, Huntsville officials decided to open up the invocations to other religions in order to be more diverse in its presentation. However, in June, an invitation to Kirk was rescinded after residents expressed concern over having a Wiccan priest open the city council meeting.

“I gave the invocation earlier this year. At the time they did not ask me what my faith affiliation was, but when they did this time and I told them ‘Wiccan,’ I was told I was no longer invited to give it,” Kirk told television station WHNT.

But the city said that it didn’t completely ban the Wiccan priest, but rather wanted to lie low until the controversy had subsided.

“We decided to pull back, to do some education maybe, and to introduce him more gently at another time,” said Huntsville City Attorney Peter Joffrion.

In September, atheist Kelly McCauley of the North Alabama Freethought Association spoke during the meeting, and two months later, Kirk was permitted to present his invocation to his “goddess.”

The majority of city councils across America allow for those outside of Christianity to present invocations, but some like Moore find such invitations to be impermissible compromises and an ultimate offense to the Creator.


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  • Ralph Spoilsport

    Yes, we all know that Moore doesn’t believe in religious rights for anyone who isn’t Christian.

    • James Grimes

      “We all know…?” Actually, we don’t know and in all likelyhood, the statement is a blatant lie. It’s good to see a judge who has values and a backbone. God bless Justice Moore for his ethics.

      • Brian Williamson

        Justice Moore was removed once from the bench for his defiance of the Higher Courts and arguably The US Constitution. Again Moore is in conflict with the higher courts (US Supreme Court) which ruled that everyone must be allowed to do invocations if they demand an opportunity to present one. In simple words ‘Christians are not the only one who are eligible to do invocations;.

        I am against all invocations. I am against all religious displays being placed in government buildings. The actions and opinions of Public Officers like Justice Roy Moore are why!

        Justice Moore needs removed again but by Impeachment this time so he cannot just be voted back on the court, especially if he insists on misinforming the Public and it’s Officers on what they are allowed to do.

        As far as Ethics goes, upholding the US Constitution and the Alabama Constitution are the bars of Ethics that count for Judges of his state, not Judge Moore’s favorite bible.

        • James Grimes

          Tell the people of Alabama. You’re barking up the wrong tree with me. I’m not interested in Atheists’ opinions. Have a blessed and Merry Christmas. Best to you and your family.

          • Brian Williamson

            Same to your opinion.

          • Pax Humana

            Sod off, Brian Williamson. You, Timmy, and Ralphie should be considered the next version of The Three Stooges, you servants of Lucifer!

        • Catwoman

          We have been saying prayers in this country for years and you know what,.. it was a greatgreat thing to do!! Now look at us..we are going down cause God is leaving..thanks a lot!!!! Our money has in GOD we trust for years!!!! People use the bible to be sworn in..presidents are sworn in with the CHRISTIAN BIBLE!! There were more believers in God in this country then not..you see all this crap going on in this country now..well thats cause we live in a godless country now..how do you like it??!!! Go ahead unbelievers..have it your way…but be prepared for the consequences!!! You laugh at me now but it will not be funny when you realize the truth to late!!!

          • dark477

            “Our money has in GOD we trust for years”

            which was only added as an FU to the communists.

            “presidents are sworn in with the CHRISTIAN BIBLE!!”

            Which is completely optional, an elected official can be sworn in on any holy book or none at all.

          • Catwoman

            Then why did any president sware on it at all? I never heard of one swaorn in on any other book..but im sure that will be coming soon. Face it..since God has been taken out of this country it has been declining. Good luck when He is gone completely.

          • Disqusdmnj

            No one has to swear on a Bible, Torah, Quran, or any holy text. They choose to because it shows that you wouldn’t lie if you’re touching your holy text… which clearly, plenty of politicians have debunked many times.

            Lately, some elected officials have placed their hand on the Constitution. It’s really the only thing we as Americans should swear to uphold when taking public office. You can swear to whatever or whoever you want when you’re at home or in church, but no holy text belongs in our laws.

          • Catwoman

            Come back to God..He is waiting for you 🙂

          • dark477

            John Q. Adams swore on a book of constitutional law.

          • Catwoman

            Presidents that took oath on bible..George Washington, 1789..Lincoln, Johnson, Grant, Hayes, Cleveland, McKinley, Roosevelt, Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, FranklinD. Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Regan, G.H.Bush, Clinton, G.W.Bush, Obama..it started before the 1950’s..it started with our FIRST PRESIDENT!!

          • dark477

            And it’s still optional.

          • Catwoman

            And most STILL chose to use the bible.. Thank God for the men who believe in Him..i cant imagine what this country would be like without these strong God loving,, God fearing men!!

          • dark477

            I’d say that most of them use a bible more because it’s traditional rather than belief.

          • Brian Williamson

            Article VI of the US ban religious test as requirements for Office or Public Trust. So remove bibles from swearing in sermonizes and oaths, remove religious test clauses from state Constitutions.

            1st Amendment bans laws with religion as a topic, and government action that would coerce a person about matters of religion. Yet why are so many legislative bodies submitting laws to define marriage by bible standards, fighting to impose religion in science also known as creationism, declaring invocation policies favoring christian only representation, PA Desecration Laws, law putting “in god we trust’ on money, and 7 state religious test office clauses.

            This country dose not go down hill because your god has been removed from government, religion is part of the cancer that is killing it.

          • Catwoman

            So how come its ok to teach children about evolution in our schools!! There is NO proof of it yet they can teach it in our public schools??!!! How is that fair?? Not everyone believes it. MAYBE WE SHOULD FIGHT TO HAVE THAT STOPPED BEING TAUGHT IN OUR SCHOOLS!! HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THAT?

          • raytheist

            Evolution is a fact of life and should be taught in science class. All the creation myths of the world can be taught in philosophy class.

          • Catwoman

            Evolution is not a fact..but you have faith that it is true, right? You are blind my friend..i was too 4 years ago. You will find out the truth sooner or later..i just hope its not to late..i care for the lost..i really do 🙂

          • raytheist

            Virtually ALL actual scientists agree that it IS a fact, and is observed all around us. The Theory of Evolution is the massive body of research and documentation that explains the fact of evolution. There is simply no better way to explain the marvelous diversity of life on this planet.

          • Brian Williamson

            Even Fruit fly research, vaccines, germ theory, the Russian silver fox breeding program, the plant crossbreeding program that produced the banana, modern verities of corn, peas, and other plants; all these things are proof of Evolution being right as a Scientific Theory. Dover V Kitzmiller proved intelligent design and creationism are one and the same and not Science. Article 1 Section 8 paragraph 8 make the Promotion of Science a government duty if even only patents.

            You want to blow hot air about how your not already fighting Science! What about the “Teach the Controversy” movement, the long defunct Tennessee Butler Act, current misinformation attacks on ‘common core’?

            You side is already trying every foul underhanded trick in the book to get religion in the school and force the learning out for a start. I HATE THIS BY THE WAY!

          • Disqusdmnj

            Because it’s scientifically proven fact – not speculation, not a fairy tale. Time and time again under actual peer-reviewed research, it has been shown to be true… whether you’re willing to admit or not. That’s why.

          • Stephen Anthony

            The money is not your money it is federal reserve private banking groups. The term ..in God we trust, was placed there in the 1950s . It has freemasonry designs, which are Egyptian! The very civilization that enslaved God’s so called chosen people. Your money is anti Christian in fact! There is no mention of any religion in the constitution, not even God!

        • pax2u

          watch out for the wild animals who say that they are “christians” barking at the moon and hating any one who disagrees with them.

          Merry Christmass, and may God forgive those who hate Christians

          • Brian Williamson

            The US government has no right to partner with or submit to religion. All laws that we make are for the self government of the people of the United States where the topic of religion is off limits to discussion and creation of law.

            Justice Moore dose not understand this hence his appeal that towns defy atheist by limiting invocation to christains.

          • Marty Girl

            We aren’t self governing! What an ignorant statement. We were a republic which we are not today, we are a democratic society that feeds off of its own through corporate lobby and special interests. We haven’t been free since the Federal Reserve took over. There is no freedom here in the US, only the illusion of it. When men decided that they didn’t need God they shot themselves in the head. Atheism is a religion that claims nothing but demands everything. It is a disease that spawns from the occult and ritualistic roots but gives the illusion of nothingness when in reality it practices ancient pagan beliefs that stem from the occult and sorcery. There is no greater religion that Atheism and society is now bearing the fruit of that disease.

          • Brian Williamson

            Your religion has no right to have a presence in government. Stop spreading garbage about people such as myself who are fighting to uphold the US Constitution.

            On a side note I oppose the Bribery of our Public Officers as well, so support an Amendment to overturn the ‘citizens united’ decision.

          • Marty Girl

            Actually we just hate ignorance.

          • wandakate

            CHRISTMAS has nothing to do with JESUS. It’s pagan and was from the pagan/heathen people of old. JESUS wasn’t born in December, it’s only tradition from about 324 when Constantine decided to take the pagan customs and combine them with Christian customs and he called it Christmas. Christians are not wild animals and we don’t bark at the moon and we certainly don’t hate people. Either you are right or you are wrong. There is only one GOD and there are no other gods, the rest of whatever gods people think there are, are false gods that can neither see or hear and do nothing for them.
            They worship false gods that can’t answer their prayers, they worship idols and they are living in sin when they do so.

      • Ralph Spoilsport

        “We all know…?”

        OK, we all know except James Grimes.

        • James Grimes

          This is pretty childish. Is this how a man replies?

          • Pax Humana

            He is not a man, he is a moron with a big mouth and a a pair of tiny and underpowered brains in two places in his body.

          • Ralph Spoilsport

            I thought you weren’t interested in the opinions of atheists.

        • pax2u

          You have met someone who hates every one else and loves himself

      • TheSootyOne

        Which god? There’s over 2880 to choose from! You’re almost as atheist as I am!

        • James Grimes

          LOL. This must be the joke of the day.

    • Tim Raynor

      That is so true, Ralph. Religious freedom is for ALL religions, not just Christian’s. Apparently judge Moore doesn’t like our Constitution. What a shame and pretty pathetic for someone in law.

      • Pax Humana

        Timmy and Ralphie, you two are morons and you would rather have us under a Muslim, Communist, Socialist, Fascist, Nationalist, Atheist/atheist, humanist/secular humanist/secularist, Wicca/Pagan/Satanist/Luciferian, or some other evil religious regime than you would to have true freedom in YAHWEH EL ELOHIM. Furthermore, you mental midgets, there is a saying that says “Freedom is not free,” and you need to be truly grateful and thankful that you are not living in a society that would hand you off to a concentration camp or that would haul a whole family off in the middle of the night simply because some neighbor with a lot of power and influence did not like them and put them in some gulag without ANYONE to plead their case for them because if we DO listen to jack wagons like you, then that WILL be what will happen to THIS country and people like Chief Justice Moore are our bulwark against things like that happening in our country, period, full stop.

        • pax2u

          true

        • Disqusdmnj

          Hitler was a Christian, didn’t seem to stop him from having people hauled off to the camps… even the “chosen people”.

          • James Grimes

            Hitler was baptized a Catholic. He disavowed anything Christian in the early 1930s.

          • Disqusdmnj

            OK, so all cards on the table here (and in all respectful dialogue)… I was brought up Jewish, but have been an atheist for 30+ years. You’re saying that because he was “Catholic”, his behavior was different than had he been “Christian”? Aren’t they basically the same besides the saints? Shouldn’t he have followed the whole “don’t kill” commandment either way?

          • James Grimes

            Hitler followed his own rules. Austria was predominantly Catholic when Hitler grew up. He had Jewish roots. I don’t either made a respectable difference in his young life.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Oh, so just point of fact then. Either way, having some semblance of a religious upbringing didn’t seem to do him any good. The point I’d make is that religion or belief in a deity doesn’t have a monopoly on being the only way people are good, as Pax above seems to imply. There are murderers who call themselves Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, atheist, whatever… doesn’t mean you’re actually a good person. But the Judge in question has to figure out if he wants to be an American who follows legal precedents, or a Christian who won’t. He can believe whatever he wants outside the job, but on the job, he needs to obey our laws.

            Beyond that, Merry Xmas!

          • James Grimes

            It isn’t the label we wear, but the relationship we have with the God of the Universe that will make a difference in our lives. Personally, I would rather have a justice serve who has an ethical standard of behavior over one who lacks that.

            Have a blessed and Merry Christmas.

          • Disqusdmnj

            I agree about the ethical part, but I don’t agree that disobeying the Establishment Clause is ethical, nor saying that we are a Christian nation is correct. We are a nation of A LOT of Christians, but also Mormons, Jews, Muslims, atheists, wiccans and satanists, etc (I’ll grant that even *I* don’t understand what the last two believe in…). But, just because someone is in the majority doesn’t mean they get to call the government theirs, and that is what this judge seems to believe is his right. He’s either elected or appointed to uphold the laws, and it seems that he does not believe he has to. If he doesn’t want to, I fully support that, but only if he leaves his position. That’s just the way our wonderful country works.

          • James Grimes

            It would be up to the people of Alabama to make that determination. From what my cousin tells me, the people love him. Would we be talking about him if he was a crook and was impeached?

          • Disqusdmnj

            I would hope so! And yes, he may be fully supported by 100% of Alabamians… but that doesn’t make his disobeying our laws right. If he wants the 10C on every public courthouse property, then let him get it on a ballot or run for office and write the law to get it approved through legislation. That’s how it works.

          • wandakate

            There is ONE REAL GOD, and then there are many “false” gods. We must know the difference and that will determine whom we will serve. The GOD of Heaven and earth, JESUS CHRIST his son are the true saviors. The FATHER who is in heaven is the one who gives us breath/life and when he takes that away from us we die. ALL power is in Him, and there is no other. JESUS said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man will come to the FATHER but by (through) me.” ONE GOD, no more.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Don’t forget Zeus and Thor, LOL.

          • Jesse

            Pearls

          • Bill

            And our laws are based in Christian principles … beyond that … Merry Christmas to you as well. I hope this coming year helps you to find out that absolute truth exists and it can be found in the Bible.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Sure, some truth is in every book. Even fairy tale books, sci-if, etc. doesn’t make it ALL true.

          • fran duffy

            Why such a hateful attitude if you don’t believe why argue?
            If God is not real and the Bible is a fairy tale as you say why
            argue?
            You need proof to believe too bad . You are proof of what Jesus
            said in the Bible. They will HATE YOU because they hated me first!
            Atheists are such sad people. Taking up a life that someone who
            suffers from a disease would be glad to have.
            Believe in nothing hate those that believe sad little excuse of a living human being

          • Disqusdmnj

            Not hate, none whatsoever. Just sadness for grown-ups who still cling to fairy tales, and can’t appreciate the beauty of the world around them, and have to attribute everything to a non-existent deity. You erroneously think everything was put here for a reason – for YOU. I know that we’re here by the most infinitesimal percent of happenstance. The reality is, I appreciate life far more than you ever could, because I know how fleeting life is, how lucky we are to enjoy our existence, how wonderful our universe is, and how limited our time on this beautiful Earth is. It’s a shame you can never see the world we share as I do – I truly wish you could, but religion has put blinders on your eyes, limiting your mind to the closed little closet of a 1,600 year old book, and its made-up stories.

            It’s a shame, really. You have my sympathies.

          • Jesse

            How sad it must be for you yo go through your life thinking and believing that this is all there is. There is an awful lot of evidence that the spirit world exists; how do you rationalize that?

          • Disqusdmnj

            Because there’s absolutely no empirical evidence that a spirit world exists, and this world and this life is more than enough for me. I have family and friends, I know what it is to love and be loved, I walk in nature filled with wonder and awe. Life is awesome while it lasts.

            Instead, why do you feel what you have already *isn’t* enough?

          • Catwoman

            Just because someone says they are Christian does not mean they really are..did you know hitler made up his own bible? And do you realky think hitler was spreading Jesus’ message by killing 6 million of God’s chosen people? He was a monster..a vessle for the devil.

          • Brian Williamson

            Than never ever bring up the trope of “Stalin, Pol Pot” again. You want to say that some else that calls them-self a Christian is not one, than you lose the already bad license to link atheists to the supposed long dead tyrants.

          • Bill

            If you need your history straightened out, we (including Catwoman) will try to educate you. It is up to you to listen and learn.

          • Bill

            Again, you need a history lesson. This time you need to learn about what the difference is between a Bible Believing Christian and a Catholic. They are not the same. Although there are Catholic’s that really believe in the Bible, they still claim to be Catholic and do not follow the Pope as absolute authority.

          • Disqusdmnj

            You guys have one holy book – why are there hundreds of versions of it, and thousands of religions based off it? Shouldn’t there only be one true book and one true religion?

            Let me guess… it’s yours! Yours is the one true interpretation! 😉

            Either way, enjoy your holiday today. Hope it’s filled with family and love, since that’s all that matters! 🙂

          • wandakate

            GOD is love, and GOD should be number 1 and then family and friends. As for the Holy book, no, the Catholics have their own bible and the Christians have the original Holy Bible. The Catholic bible is not the same, the words have been changed and even the 10 Commandments have been rearranged. Compare and see.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Imaginary friends before real people, LOL.

          • fran duffy

            and you believe in?
            When you die what will happen to you?? Nothing?
            Wrong you can laugh all you want. EVERYONE will stand before God
            and be judged. Even those like you who believe its not real.
            Have a good nights sleep hope you open your eyes again
            before you see God

          • Disqusdmnj

            I – and you – will go back to where we were before we were borne… into nothingness. Our legacy will be our judge, not a saint nor a deity, not at pearly gates and clouds. I will be judged by how I’m remembered by my family and loved ones, friends and acquaintances. And I’ll be just fine with that, because they’ll remember me as the awesome guy that I am today.

          • iconoclast12

            Hope it’s not Thor or Horus up there then you are in trouble.

          • Mary Kilbride

            Are you not able to think logically enough to be sure of what you are saying, rather then to laugh? It’s terrifying how you laugh, and clearly you have not ever sought Him out. Talk to Him in earnest, when nobody is looking if you are embarrassed….. but, don’t laugh at Almighty God, because when it all comes down, you will be in no place to change your mind. Say your insulting things to us in public, but let these words sink in that you can be saved through what Jesus Christ did….. His salvation is for you. It’s for everybody who repents and accepts Him as Savior. Just sayin’…..

          • Disqusdmnj

            Logic has nothing to do with that statement, because years ago, logic told me that when I asked him questions, and prayed, waited for and never got a response, it was because no one was there to answer me.

            I need no salvation from a tyrannical, petulant God who doesn’t exist anyway. No one needed to die for my “sins”. I will not be concerned about a non-existent life after my death.

            Cool story, though.

          • iconoclast12

            God kills children, see the flood in Genesis.

          • fran duffy

            Thank you for the family and love part

          • Bill

            Let me try to help you Disq. The Bible in its original form, Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic is the only authorized version of the Bible that all other Bible translations are based on. The Bible was written to be understood and not added to or subtracted from to make it say what you want it to say. For example, people all the time are taking the phrase from 2nd Peter 3:8 out of context: “A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.” This has nothing to do with the age of the earth but every thing to do with God’s patience.

            Read the verse in context: “8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.”

            God is outside of time and space and has more patience than humans can comprehend.

            Back to your question of all the different religions, when man tries to create his own interpretation of scripture instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead his thinking, you get people going off and creating unbiblical religions. But the plain reading of scripture is usually straight forward and when you have questions, you need to pray for guidance or seek counsel from someone you trust and then pray some more, because that person could be wrong to.

            So … there is one “true book” and one “true reading” and one “true faith” … Christianity is not a religion … it is a relationship with Jesus. Jesus said …

            Luke 6:47
            I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it.

            Luke 9:23
            Then he said to the crowd, “If any of you wants to be my follower, you must turn from your selfish ways, take up your cross daily, and follow me.

            Jesus did not say … follow those who follow me, why?, because they can be selfish and wrong in what they say and do.

          • Mary Kilbride

            There is one Bible, but since we are a world of many languages, there are translations into languages that they can read and understand. If any of these books, and there are many, where mankind inserts what HE believes and changes what God said, it is not a Bible. It’s just a silly book with no meaning and no authority. There is one Body of Christ that call themselves Christians and that is those who follow Christ as the One Way to God. Anybody else Is not Christian though they may call themselves that.

            Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB)

            21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

          • fran duffy

            Open the Bible at a church study you just might learn something.
            One difference between Catholics and Protestant’s
            Catholics believe the Pope has all authority on heaven and earth.
            Jesus said I have all authority from my Father on heaven and earth.
            The second difference is They Catholics read their own Catholic version of the Bible
            Protestant’s follow the Holy Bible

          • Disqusdmnj

            I grew up in the temple. You guys were all just Gentiles to me! 😉

          • Catwoman

            He was not a christian..he did not follow Christ!! He followed the devil.. do more research on it. Like i said,..just because someone says they are Christian does not mean they are.

          • Disqusdmnj

            And just because you believe the devil is real, doesn’t make it true. Hitler considered himself a Christian doing your god’s work, like it or not.

          • Bill

            You better go read some REAL history … Hitler, Linin, and Stalin all called Christians … useful idiots. He was anything but a Christian. Fully absorbed in evolution and atheism. So at least get your facts straight.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Oh, these facts are most certainly straight: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/

            I’m not staying he was a good Christian, but he believed he was, and definitely was not an atheist.

            You should go read some real science books to find out what evolution is – it’s not survival of the fittest as Hitler may have used for the Holocaust, it’s survival of species most adaptable to change. Quite a difference.

            Also, stop reading David Barton and watching Fox, and you’ll learn our laws are based on basic principles like don’t steal, don’t kill, etc, which can be attributed to any civilization that predates ours. Our laws are more based on treatises like the Magna Carta.

            But hey, don’t take my word for it, since I’m just an atheist. Let these Founding Fathers speak for themselves:

            John Adams: “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797)

            Thomas Jefferson: “Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.” (Letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814)

            James Madison: “The civil government … functions with complete success … by the total separation of the Church from the State.” (Writings, 8:432, 1819)

            George Washington: “If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.” (Letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789)

            Happy Solstice!

          • Bill

            For every quote you come up with, I will match you and raise you 10.
            Yes, lets look at all the quotes of the founding fathers, including George Washington:
            Interestingly, Washington’s own contemporaries did not question his Christianity but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith–a fact made evident in the first-ever compilation of the The Writings of George Washington, published in the 1830s.
            http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html
            http://www.faithofourfathers.net/

            IF you are going to pick and choose your quotes to prove a point, you will not be successful. America was founded on Christian Principles and practically every building in the Capital shows proof of this fact.

          • Disqusdmnj

            That’s fine, I’m not saying the Fathers weren’t religious, I’m saying the country isn’t a Christian nation. We are a nation *of* Christians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Jains, Zoroastrians, atheists, Buddhists, etc. our founding documents make no mention of Jesus, Christ, Zeus, what have you. And any mention of a Creator is a tenuous tie to a specific religion – no one 250+ years ago could determine how we came to be, and “Nature” was good enough for them to use.

            But we’re not a theocracy, maybe to your dismay.

          • Bill

            If you choose to be willingly ignorant of the facts Disq, that is your choice. This is a Christian Nation and it has been since it’s inception. Real Christians are the most tolerant people in the world and contrary to popular belief and media hype, we fully welcome those who are not Christians and in fact enjoy their company as long as they are civil. I’m sorry to have to say this, but my experience with most atheists has not been pleasant as they, in general, turn obnoxious and rude when we Christians do not agree with their thinking. It is a sad commentary on a group of so-called tolerant people.

          • Disqusdmnj

            So you’re saying that those of us who aren’t “Real Christians” should be happy you’re letting us live in “your” country? Peshaw, what hooey.

            Are you tolerant enough to vote in officials who are finally extending full American rights to the LGBT community to get married – not in churches, but at least in the courts? Are you tolerant enough to let a Satanist offer an invocation before a town hall meeting? Are you tolerant enough to let women decide what to do with their bodies? If not, then no – you aren’t. If yes, then I’m awful glad to hear it.

            But your definition of “facts” is obviously different than mine. I don’t wear the glasses of privilege as you do, so you’ll never see the world as it is when you’re not in the religious majority, and believe that you get to decide what others can and can’t do under the auspices of actual American laws, and not old biblical ones.

            Yes, there are obnoxious atheists, but by mere fact of percentages, there are far more obnoxious religious people… yet by and large, they are a small percent of the whole.

          • Bill

            Is that what I said Disq? or is that the delusional interpretation that you wanted to inflict on my comments? We “real Christians” do not decide for anyone what they can and cannot do, contrary to your deluded thinking. We are tolerant but we will not stop telling you the truth of God’s word because you want to run your life into the toilet.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Oh, so you’re OK with marriage equality, abortion rights, and Satanic Temple displays next to nativity scenes? My mistake then, I didn’t see you answer anything. Come on… tell me you support these things. Show me that good ol’ Christian tolerance!

            Remember, you’re an atheist too, to all the gods that have gone into history’s dustbin. I’ve just thrown out one more than you.

            I don’t know about yours, but my life is awesome. No gods, no devils, no sins, no heaven or hell. I answer to those I love and who love me, and to myself… not someone else’s fairy tale. You should try it sometime! 😉

          • Bill

            Again with the deluded thinking. You obviously do not comprehend when you read. I said … “real Christians” are tolerant of things others want to believe in, I did not say we agree with that kind of thinking or behavior. As Paul said to the Corinthians: In 1Corinthians 3

            18 Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world’s standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say,

            “He traps the wise
            in the snare of their own cleverness.”[d]

            20 And again,

            “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise;
            he knows they are worthless.

          • Bill

            What you fail to understand is that God will not be mocked and by doing so you are building up wrath for the day of judgment. Whether or not you believe it is irrelevant. We are only trying to warn you of the judgment to come. We are not forcing you to believe, but merely pleading with you to reconsider the predicament you are in. For 1 Cor 6:9-10 says:
            Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Yay! More bible verses! Tell about the time you couldn’t mix fabrics or eat shellfish. I hate shrimp, anyway, so that’s cool.

            Oddly enough, I haven’t done any of those sins you listed, so I guess I still get to go to heaven. Yay again for moral atheists!

          • wandakate

            The fact that you have not committed any of those sins are irrelevant. What matters is DO YOU BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST”

          • Disqusdmnj

            Fairy tales, LOL.

          • wandakate

            You may think it’s funny now but you are lost and confused and you don’t know right from wrong or truth from error. You might be laughing now (as in lol) but you won’t be laughing when it’s too late and you realize your choice was foolish and unwise. When people won’t listen then they suffer the consequences. You need some maturity so you can chose better for yourself…

          • Disqusdmnj

            I’ve never committed a crime, been faithfully married for 13 years, raising a 12 y/o son, I donate to many charities, help high school students work in college applications, take care of my mom, work hard so my wife can be home with our son and teach after-school and get her business started. I put her through college, have helped her family out financially, and was prepared to adopt her grand-niece as my own. I’m an Ivy League graduate and a 1%’r who willingly pays his taxes and would pay more if I knew it would go towards feeding hungry children, helping the homeless, educating poor kids, and ensuring universal health care.

            By all means, Wanda… please tell me how I don’t know right from wrong. I’m all ears, or eyes, as it were.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Hi! So I was thinking about getting some sin in before my vacation ends. I was hoping to cheat on my wife, steal some money, disobey my parents, and then go on a murderous rampage.

            I just want to make sure that after I accept Jesus as my savior, I’ll still get to heaven, right? The J man will be cool with all that bad stuff, since he and I will be best buds then, and he’ll totally get me into all the cool parties.

            I’d certainly hate to spend my life being a good person, when I can instead act like a raging maniac, but get that dirty slate wiped clean. I mean, who cares what I did once I accept the savior, am I right? It’s like a do-over, or a new Mario in Donkey Kong!

            What sin do you recommend I start with? May as well try to get them all in before I repent! 😉

          • Gunny

            Fact is you have committed all the sins, in your heart, which is how the Judge will pass you on to eternity.

          • Disqusdmnj

            You’re god’s a d*bag if he’s more concerned about how I feel about him than how I live my life around others in the real world. I guess he – and you – would be happier if someone went on a rape and murder spree and then accepted his BS, as opposed to a realist who sees there’s no evidence of any deities and spends his life being an all-around good guy for the sake of being good towards others.

            If that’s the case, not only would I not accept him, I’d willingly spend the rest of eternity nowhere near him.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Yay! I was wondering when you’d try proving your point with a bible reference… because if there’s anything more relevant in this day and age, it’s a sentence or two from a 1,600 year old book. You should also try not mixing cloths or eating shrimp. And beware the talking snake! I hear he’s pretty wily.

            But don’t worry, the rest of us will happily carry you forward with science and reality, even if you’re kicking and screaming while it happens. 😉

          • Bill

            Disq, are you referring to the science/religion of willful ignorance. No thanks. I’ll stick with real observable science. You know, the science that shows that DNA has a coded information system that cannot be produced by random chance processes and natural selection. The science that has proven that such a coded information system only comes from an intelligent mind. The science that shows the universe had a beginning and that things that have a beginning had a sufficient cause, the science that shows that only an omnipotent power could have possibly been that kind of cause. The science that gave us the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics which have been proven and that indicate there is not a chance that evolution could produce the kind of increasing complexity that would be required to “evolve” from a single celled organism to a human. I know real science and it isn’t the fairy tale of evolution. And before you go discounting that book that was written a long time ago, maybe you should try to understand what it tells you about yourself. After all, it is the most authenticated book ever written and has never been proven wrong … even by archeological findings. And it has never been proven wrong by the millions of secular humanists that have tried to disprove it, who, by the way, were not stupid people. But they, like you, suppress the truth. They and you know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to you. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, Disq, you know God exists … down deep you know that you will be held accountable to Him. I suggest you stop your petty fighting against Him and try to know Him. He will reveal Himself to you if you are intellectually honest enough to seek Him with sincerity. My prayer for you this day is that you will seek Him before it is too late.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Please send me the links to all of the scientific, peer-reviewed journals that answer that magnificent question with, “god did it.”

            It’s OK, I’m on vacation, so I have time to wait for you to figure out what you can send me from your “scientists”.

            Looking forward to it!

          • Bill

            Peer review is a joke and you know it.

            Fraud is a substantial problem in scientific research and the attitude toward it has changed little over the years.

            Richard Smith, a former editor of the British Medical Journal and chief executive of the BMJ publishing group, admitted that fraudulent research regularly appears in the 30,000 scientific journals published worldwide. However, ‘[m]ost cases are not publicised. They are simply not recognised, covered up altogether or the guilty researcher is urged to retrain, move to another institution or retire from research.’ He also acknowledged that even when journals discover that published research is fabricated or falsified they rarely retract the findings,13 usually out of fear of lawsuits.

            Well known cases of fraud include the Piltdown man hoax, an obvious fraud that was not exposed for 40 years; and more recently, the Korean scientist Hwang Woo-suk, who falsified data relating to his embryonic stem cell/cloning research;14 as well as a series of papers on superconductivity by Jan Hendrik Schön published in Nature from 2000 to 2001 period, but had to be retracted in 2003 because they contained falsified data and other scientific fraud.15

            Of particular interest to creationists is the recently exposed fraudulent activities of German anthropologist Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten. For thirty years, Protsch systematically falsified the dates on numerous ‘stone age’ relics. According to experts, his deceptions may mean an entire tranche of the history of man’s development will have to be rewritten. Thomas Terberger, the archaeologist who discovered the hoax, stated: ‘Anthropology is going to have to completely revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago.’ An inquiry established that Protsch had passed off fake fossils as real ones and had plagiarised other scientists’ work. It was established that one of his more sensational finds, ‘Binshof-Speyer’ woman, lived in 1,300 bc rather than 21,300 years ago, as he had claimed and his ‘Paderborn-Sande man’ discovery (dated at 27,400 bc) only died a couple of hundred years ago, in 1750. The inquiry was told that an important Hamburg Neandertal skull fragment believed to be from the world’s oldest German, was actually a mere 7,500 years old, according to Oxford University’s radiocarbon dating unit. The unit established that a number of other skulls had also been wrongly dated.16 Frankfurt University’s president, Rudolf Steinberg, apologised for the university’s failure to curb Protsch’s habitual misconduct over many decades, admitting that ‘[a] lot of people looked the other way.

            Rebut the arguments that were presented and stop hiding behind the false assumption that peer review makes the argument valid. Come on now Disq, you can surely use common sense and logic to discus a valid argument.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Yes, yes… Piltdown man was a hoax. As were the sightings of Yeti’s, weeping Mary statues, and countless other toast-appearing Jesus’. Come on, Bill… you’re smarter than that, and smarter than to simply copy and paste a bunch of other text regarding debunked research. The point is, accepted research must be reviewed, proven, and duplicated, and you know darn well that no research about our universe has ever resulted in, “therefore, deities.”

            And there already is a hypothesis about how life got started on a young earth. https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life. Just a hypothesis, not a theory yet, but the scientific method will help determine if it is a valid concept. If and when it does, we’ll know more than we did about our world, and once again, “because god” will not be the answer.

            See, the scientific method is why vaccines were invented, why we *roughly* know how old the earth is (I’m assuming you know it isn’t 6,500 years, right?), and why you and I are debating on computing devices that send ones and zeroes by electrons. And it’s why my mom was on Vioxx for years for her arthritis, because the scientific method proved it would help her, until it also proved that it had a high chance of giving her a heart attack. That’s the beauty of *real* science – it’s self correcting. Of course there are errors and hoaxes and mistakes and forgetting to carry the one. But you’re happy thinking you already have all the answers, in a book with so many discrepancies that a high school yearbook edition wouldn’t let it get published, written at a time when people thought the sun revolved around the earth (you know it doesn’t, right?), and that the moon gave off its own light.

            Yours is a god of the gaps, one more in a long line who gets smaller and smaller as we learn more and more about our world and our existence, as we throw off the ancient beliefs about how to treat our slaves and how much money you get when your daughter is violated, what days we can work and whether or not we can shave or eat lobster (for the record, I hate shellfish… just never developed the taste for it, yet I love fish – go figure).

            And yours is a god that’s even getting squeezed out of churches who want to be a place where two men or women can get married. I guess they’re not “real Christians” to you, but they seem to be getting along just fine, just like the rest of us. If your god were real and as powerful as you believe, and as willing to slaughter women and children in a flood, then let him strike me down now for being such a happy (and successful, I might add!) atheist. Let him kill all the priests who are usurping his marriage instructions. Let him smite those who work on the Sabbath.

            But yet, I’m still here, as are all my atheist friends, and Catholic wife and Christian aunt and Jewish uncle who also support gay marriage and abortion rights, and all the other stuff that gods apparently don’t like.

            Did you ever see “The Usual Suspects”? It ends with a great line: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.” I love that line, even though I know it’s just a story and there is no devil. The corollary is that if there really were a god, the greatest trick he’s ever pulled is creating a world without any evidence that he actually exists.

            Anyway, hope you had a merry Christmas!

          • Bill

            Be careful what you wish for Disq. Our God is a loving and patient God but does have a limit. The Flood was a good example of where He drew the line before. Regarding your comments, I think I counted at least 7 accusations with absolutely no evidence to support even one accusation. Some people have a problem with cut-n-paste, but when it is appropriate to get a point across, I will used that method of communication. It is no different than posting a link to an article or video for effect.

            Now, specifically, regarding your comment about the scientific method, the scientific method and all of those vaccines and technologic advances are good for where they work, but do nothing for evolution, more specifically, macro evolution. As I will not accept the old bait-n-switch of using micro evolution and extrapolating it into macro-evolution. Creation science fully accepts changes within a kind. However, there is not one single example of the scientific method supporting “molecules-to-man” evolution. You can’t find support in the fossil record (the evidence I provide here is this: google “images of a series of transitional fossils” and see what you get, you will not see anything but artist conceptions and speculation, but you will not see even one series of real transitional fossils), you can’t find support in molecular biology (as evidence I told you previously that random chance processes and natural selection cannot provide the increase in complexity that is required for even a one to two cell increase in the genome), you can’t find support period. Mountains of “speculation” do not convince anybody.

            Have you ever heard of Anthony Flew? He was the Richard Dawkins of the 20th century. The supper atheist … until molecular biology proved that DNA has a coded information system. At that point Flew threw up his hands and conceded that only a mind is capable of producing coded information. While you modern atheist think you can baffle the general public with superfluous rhetoric and speculation, Flew told the atheist world that it was fighting a loosing battle. And he is just one of hundreds that have conceded.

            The chemical evolutionist, Dean Kenyon, who co-wrote the 70’s text book called “Bio-Chemical Predestination” is another one. You can find a great Youtube video on this guy here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=another+evolutionary+biologist+rejects+the+bogus+theory+of+evolution
            I am smart Disq … smart enough to see the holes in the greatest hoax on earth … evolution. That leaves one conclusion and you are willingly ignorant enough to dismiss the obvious. Jesus is who He says He is. And there is plenty of historical and literary proof for that comment as well. It’s you soul you are throwing down the toilet. I lead you to the evidence, but it is your choice to accept it or reject it. I’m done with our conversation at this point. Happy New Year

          • Disqusdmnj

            Open your mind, Bill. Sure, you can deny all the evidence for evolution that every scientist has already confirmed, or the likely reality of a Big Bang (first theorized by a priest, I might add), or not be convinced by explanations of our world that show there’s no need for a god… it’s sad, really, to not even try to understand the world you live in without subscribing to ancient beliefs in magical sky daddies.

            But beyond that river of denial, think for yourself about this supposed real god you are so sure is real, this absentee landlord, and ask yourself these questions:

            If he exists and is all powerful, why doesn’t he just speak to everyone and prove his existence?

            Why did he create the concept of sin, and then enact a punishment for it that cannot be seen? Why threaten humans with hell only after they die, when there can be no way to prove to the living it indeed exists?

            Why did he create himself in human form, only to die under the absurd presumption that it was done for the sins of people not yet born? And why do it two thousand years ago? Why not recently, when there are TV’s and phone cameras, and ways to record events?

            Why create people who need light and sleep and food? Those things are pretty hard to come by, why not just make them unnecessary?

            And hardest of all for religious types to comprehend, why create Earth in the first place? If he wants us to be in heaven with him for all eternity, why not just bear us there in the first place? Why go through all this stupid living on Earth stuff? Why get sick and old and die in horrific accidents and get debilitating diseases? Why not just plop us on a cloud and say, “Hey, so I’m your god, and this is where you’ll be for eternity, so love me or you get the fire.” Wouldn’t that be easier than spending your days trying to figure out if it’s ok to go to work on Saturday, or get a tattoo, or eat fried shrimp without angering a deity? Why all these planets and stars and galaxies and empty space?

            See, these are the questions you dare not ask yourself, because if you REALLY thought about it, you’d realize it truly makes no sense that any god exists. You’d understand that we already know far too much about our world to ascribe it to the man in the sky who has an odd habit of killing babies and asking fathers to kill their babies for him. You’d get that evidence for macro and micro evolution and DNA is so overwhelming that we swim in it and walk through it daily. You’d comprehend that we are just a blip on a planet that had tens of thousands of years of civilization where people could only imagine that gods controlled the weather and the seasons and the tides and when we died, and that this story flowed from one generation to the next in a sick game of telephone that caused plagues like the Inquisition until it narrowed down to one guy with no other historical record at a time when Romans wrote down everything. And you’d realize that every time you go to church, the pews keep seeming a little lighter these days, because people are getting sick and tired of being told how much trouble they’ll be in when their father gets home, but he just never shows up, does he?

            Because if you did, you’d realize you’re just one step away from the child who still believes in Santa and the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. And I’d imagine it’d be pretty devastating to realize that as an adult man, you still believe in fairy tales.

          • Bill

            You see Disq, I did not grow up as a Christian or Creationist. I went to college and was taught all of the evolution fairy tale and grew up during the Carl Sagan years and believed that we couldn’t possibly be the only planet with intelligent life and all the other stuff you mentioned in your post. Then … I DID open my mind, because things just don’t seem to fit that handy dandy, hocus pocus scenario of evolution and the big bang and all that other stuff that you think supports your mindless, purposeless existence. So I’ll ask you … if your materialistic thinking is supposed to be right, and all there is or every will be is matter and energy … where did the laws of logic come from? Where did the laws of uniformity and physics come from? Where did your conscience come from? You cannot explain the origin of these phenomenon in a purely materialistic since. Random chemical bumping around in your brain is not a logical or reasonable explanation and you have nothing left in your grab bag of worthless, delusional thinking to explain the emotions of love, the sense of self, or absolute morality. It is you is closed minded. I started thinking critically about these things and found the answers. And you, unfortunately, will never experience the joy of knowing your creator because you are so busy denying His existence. I will leave you with this?

            Romans 1: “… 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

            21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

            24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise!

          • Bill

            Just another secular, atheistic scientist who came to his senses.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Hi Bill, sorry I’ve been out of touch – I had a couple people ask me some pretty dumb questions, so it was easier to let them know the truth about their realities, rather than spend the time to thoughtfully answer your comments. Interestingly, both came after you said you were done with me… I guess you missed me!

            I just can’t comprehend how you went the wrong way, from science and fact to fantasy and fiction. That’s a big leap indeed! But let’s tackle your biggest issue, shall we? I’ll first give you some credit though, because religious fundies such as yourself usually get to the “atheists lead meaningless lives” comment much faster. One even wished I were dead a few months ago – how utterly Christian of him! His beliefs followed the same trajectory as yours, though he really seemed to hate the gays (I adore them), so maybe you’re close to that wish as well. I hope not; you really hung in there with your bible babble!

            But now, back to the topic at hand…

            You see, *you* think I lead a meaningless, material-driven life, because you *have* to. You can’t imagine that someone who lives a good, happy, prosperous life like mine, ccan do so without the loving embrace of an absent god. You can’t imagine someone enjoying their existence like I do, without all the restrictions and confines you have to live with, not to mention having to convince yourself against all common sense in the “truth” of such claptrap like talking snakes, dirt-men and rib-girls (and a unicorn, too, if I’m not mistaken, but who knows, maybe they went the way of the dinosaur – you know they ruled the Earth once, right?).

            Why would you think my life is worthless? Do you believe my wife would say that, or my son, or my parents, relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, and all of the people I help secondarily through all of the donations to charities I make throughout the year, and especially during your once-Pagan holiday season (you do know why Xmas is celebrated so close to the winter solstice, right?)?

            Let me recap what I wrote to your new buddy Wanda: I’ve never committed a crime, been faithfully married for over 13 years, raising a 12 y/o son, I donate to many charities, help high school students work on college applications, take care of my mom, work hard so my wife can be home with our son and teach after-school and get her business started. I put her through college, have helped her family out financially, and was prepared to adopt her grand-niece as my own. I’m an Ivy League graduate and a 1%’r who willingly pays his taxes, and would pay more if I knew it would go towards feeding hungry children, helping the homeless, educating poor kids, and ensuring universal health care.

            Bill, old friend, I’m your worst nightmare – a contributing member of society and all-around great guy, who does more for his community than the “real Christians” you only see in your church on the high holidays. Maybe not as much as you, maybe a ton more, but an awful lot indeed. And how can you explain that? How can a smart, adorable guy like me live a full and charitable life, and not be this way without being told to do so by a magical sky daddy? How can I be good for goodness’ sake, without expecting some fantastical reward after I pass? Hard to wrap around that one, isn’t it? It just begets so much cognitive dissonance.

            I do get it, though. It’s not so much that I’m a great guy and that should be enough to go to a heaven, if one actually existed. It’s that you can’t be as free as me, because almost two thousand years of theocracy had to keep people from wising up and leaving the pews, and the best way to do that is to convince them that no matter how swell the Jew or the Muslim next door was, he’s not going to live with the G-man after they die, like *you* will, because you chose the right way to interpret the books and stay in the pews, and probably give a tithe or something to benefit the church. I guess maybe it doesn’t bother you that I exist and am as awesome as I am, because you assume I’ll be taking the elevator down instead of up when my time comes. It helps you maintain that subtle arrogance yet seem ambivalent, because you know where you’re going. That probably makes more sense now that I think about it… It’s not really how good a person you are while it matters, it’s what fairy tales do you believe. That seems awful nonsensical to me.

            Let’s look at nature. Elephants, dogs, even our cousins in the ape family all take care of one another in their groups, even those not directly related to them. I just saw a video of a macaque, I believe, whose “friend” was electrocuted. He did what he could to bring her back to life for like 20 minutes, and she actually did get revived. How amazing is that! Did he need Jesus, or Yahweh, or Poseidon, to do this? Did he need the promise of eternal life? No, he’s an animal a little more hard wired than others to have a sense of compassion and societal duty towards his mates. Is it so hard to see how humans got further along than that guy? That a few tens or hundreds of thousands of years of evolution (I know, there’s that fact you hate again) brought us more forward than our hairy cousins to have brains and synapses that give us memory, neurons that fire when we do something good or feel loved… or go really haywire and cause people to go on murderous rampages. Not so intelligently designed sometimes, are we? Or is that just satan or a demon taking over? It gets hard to keep track of myths. Anyway, remember Son of Sam? That guy was totally sick, but now he’s a believer, so it’s all good, right? Who cares what havoc he brought, the lives he shattered, because he finally found his “savior” and gets to go to heaven, right? Seems legitimate.

            I’ll even go you one further… there’s no “God” or gods, plain and simple. You know it, I know it. But Jesus, well, he was probably onto something. I don’t now why he hated fig trees, or told people – oddly, just like Jim Jones did – to leave their families and follow him, but he did have some pretty good ideas: take care of those less fortunate than you, don’t spend your life trying to get rich, give unto Caesar… essentially, don’t be a total a**hole.

            Why isn’t that enough? Why all the fantasy and science denial? Why have to make up stories about what happens after we die? Are you so afraid of going back to nothing, just as where you were before you were born? Why the silly rules about meat and dairy on the same plate, shaving, tattoos, shellfish, and what you’re allowed to do on the weekend?

            Why worry about which religion is “real”? There’s 1.3 BILLION Muslims on the planet, a billion Catholics, countless Jews and Jains and Hindus and Buddhists – are you sure *you’re* the one who’s correct? (Hint: you’re not… and since they can’t all be correct, then none of them are, so it’s far, far more likely that I am. Exciting, isn’t it!)

            Go back to where your brains once took you, Bill, back to science and reality, nature and facts, and then… just be a good person, like me. I promise you, and you have my word as a gentleman, you’ll still do fine, be liked and loved, contribute to your community, and live well until your time comes… and long may it be in the future.

            It’ll be just like Gandhi once said, “I do like your Christ; I do not like your Christians.”

            Happy new year!

          • wandakate

            For your information shrimp is bad for you, it’s one of the dirty unclean foods along with pig and all of the scavengers that crawl along the bottom and pick up the trash (they are garbage collectors). And, that book you are talking about is real, the stories in it are real and it happens to be the number 1 best selling book of all time (forever). More Bibles have been sold than all of the science books in the world. And by the way satan (the devil) is very clever and he was able to disguise himself into the serpent in the Garden of Eden. The serpent wasn’t by any means a fairy tale serpent. Christians won’t need you to carry us forward to anywhere so thanks just the same. We know where we are going and we will be there for all eternity, and we are sorry that you have chosen not to go with us, but since you think you are on the right road, then there is apparently nothing we can do to convince you otherwise…

          • Disqusdmnj

            Talking snakes, LOL.

          • wandakate

            Only a “fool” says in their heart, “there is no GOD”!

          • iconoclast12

            Only a fool believes in fairy tales.

          • wandakate

            If you think GOD is a fairy tale then you are certainly deceived above my wildest dreams. Fairy tales are at Disney World and in the make believe world of dreams and worldly stuff. GOD does not belong in that category. He created all that is and because of Him you are alive and breathing. Should He see fit to withdraw your breath, it’s over, so you’re the one dreaming. I don’t believe in fairy tales the easter bunny, the tooth fairy or santa clause, but I BELIEVE IN JESUS/GOD/the HOLY SPIRIT. Pretending to be so wise, you become a fool in the eyes of the LORD.

          • iconoclast12

            Jesus created all or was it Thor, Horus or some other of the 2,000 gods, or not god.

          • wandakate

            I’m not keeping up with Thor, or Horus or any of the other gods that you speak about, I only have the responsibility to keep up with ONE GOD, and only one. GOD the FATHER and JESUS were the ones responsible and there were no other “real-true” gods. I will admit there are MANY fake gods that people worship and they worship them and bow to them b/c they don’t know the one and only true GOD of heaven and earth. So all these other gods are of no interest to me, I don’t believe in them and I don’t need them.
            I am amazed at how deceived, programmed and brainwashed people are. They allow themselves to be that way without any thoughts of anything else. They can’t think logically or use any common sense. They can’t think for themselves and study to learn the truth. You don’t believe so that is unfortunate for you.

          • iconoclast12

            You are the one to be pitied, God killed babies (see the flood and Hosea 13:16), how can you follow a mass murderer?

          • wandakate

            I don’t have any authority to judge what GOD does or what GOD did back then. GOD is GOD, and He is responsible to creating and destroying everything. I guess it’s like if someone has a huge mansion with many rooms and one they because they were the designer and the builder they decided to burn it down, it would be their choice since they designed and built and if it were not for them the mansion wouldn’t be there in the first place. Now, it might well be ashamed to get rid of such a nice structure and all of the contents inside but it was their mansion, their right. Thus it is with GOD, he created the heavens and the earth and he created man. We (like it or not) belong to Him. From Adam and Eve to Noah and his family until today we are His. SO, with that being said, I would conclude that GOD in all of His wisdom and rights has the authority to destroy whatever and whomever He desires. I will agree that you and I don’t think that is right. We are only able however to look at this from our primary point of view as humans (created beings/souls), but being as GOD is GOD His ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts and so He is the one who has the final say of everything.
            We (many people) have turned their backs on Him and put Him on the back burner and we don’t give Him the respect that He rightfully deserves. He warned us that we would fall into sin and that we would be held accountable for that sin as all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. So, in order to rid sin in the world He will send His Son JESUS again and the devil will be sent to hell and the people that did not accept Him will be destroyed because HE ALONE IS GOD. GOD can do what He pleases and we (mortals) don’t have any control whatsoever over GOD’s decisions. So as you and others may think He is a mass murderer, I would have to say that it’s His own right in being because this all belongs to Him anyway. Just like the mansion that I mentioned.

          • wandakate

            BIG MISTAKE!!! You are living under satan’s lie that everything is rosy, that your life is awesome because you serve no god at all and you don’t believe in heaven or hell, but I can tell you that even though you don’t know it you are serving satan and you are living in sin and are just delusioned and unaware in this life. AHHH, but that is going to change. The minute GOD removes your breath from your body you will die and on the day that JESUS comes you will find out it was all a big lie, that you were deceived and programmed to think like you do because of satan and his powers to persuade you not to follow GOD. So, you just keep living in a dream world of fantasy and you just keep thinking that everything is A OK…It’s not, and I hope you see the light before you can’t see it. Because hell is very dark and there is no joy there, no friends, no family that you will know of and it won’t be awesome, it will be hell and down there nobody is going to be loving anybody and believe me it “will not” be a fairy tale.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Imaginary post-death destinations, LOL.

          • wandakate

            I don’t think they think it’s matters anyway. I do not believe that some people believe that is really is a devil (satan) or hell and that when they die, they just die and it’s over. They don’t believe that JESUS will come back and they will go to either the Kingdom of GOD, or the kingdom of satan, they just don’t get it, so they have made their own choice and sealed their own fate unfortunately. They are deciding for themselves. We are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every living soul (person) and we will not stop telling them the truth as you say. We can only do what we do, but the ultimate decision is actually up to them…

          • wandakate

            I agree that they can turn obnoxious and rude but so can today’s Christians. Try taking to a believer that believes in the pre-tribulation “rapture” and you will see that they can get very perturbed when you don’t agree with them. I have actually been e-mailing a few Christians that I have met on posts, but when certain subjects come up about the rapture or all of these traditional worldly holidays you would be surprised how many can actually get nasty and they will just stop e-mailing me b/c they don’t agree with my stand on certain topics. So, the Christian nation that always has been is in my opinion fading away gradually…The churches don’t preach the same, most are in bed with the government and their 501C3 tax exempt status program and are not preaching the real word of GOD, but some watered down version that doesn’t even line up with scripture. We are a backslidden-lukewarm nation, that is what we are.

          • Bill

            I agree to a degree with what you are saying. However, you have to understand that there are true believers that have a serious problem with their temper, … a lot of times they know it but still can’t stop themselves from acting like a non-Christian. Then there are “real” Christians that can control their emotions and are educated and stand up against the atheist or the evolutionist because they not only have God’s word backing them up but they use “real” science to back up their creation comments.

          • Guest

            “Real” science, LOL.

          • wandakate

            It’s kind of difficult to know who is who this day and time. I have a neighbor in her 50’s the is going to church every Sunday and she is living in fornication with a man that she met on the internet up in Maine and he was in Pennsylvania. They got together after only a few months and bought a motor home and moved to Florida. She knows it’s wrong, and says they will marry next year, but she still claims to be a Christian and she has read her bible. I think the LORD called them hypocrites.
            We were to be in the world but not of the world and not do what the world is doing and not participate in their worldly way and holidays which were pagan and heathen.
            So I must stick with the original comment, that we are lukewarm and backslidden and GOD hated that. He said He wished that we were one or the other hot or cold, but the middle (lukewarm) he detested.

          • Jesse

            What does ‘living in fornication’ mean to you Wandakate? (just because they’re not ‘legally’ married they are fornicators?) (in my humble opinion you have a giant can of worms there that God’s going to have to somehow sort out)

          • Gunny

            Jesse; are you saying that many who are legally married are still in sin because they weren’t ‘free’ to remarry? That is a can of worms that places lots of people outside the will of God.

          • Jesse

            Hi Gumby, did you come here to ruin my posts or just to prove you’re a know-it-all?

          • Gunny

            Going along with what you said; you old hypocrite.

          • Gunny

            You just want somebody to pick on because you know you’re wrong…

          • iconoclast12

            Disq, Bill is right we are a Christian nation, we used the Bible to justify slavery and not allowing women to vote.

          • wandakate

            It’s a man-made holiday and not a GOD-made holiday. JESUS was not born in December, he was born at the end of September in the fall before it was too cold in the Holy Land. Shepherds were not out in the fields in December. And I agree that we have fallen away and become luke warm as a Christian nation, and GOD knew that we would do this very thing. Heaven is waiting and so is hell. The people will be divided. Those who accepted JESUS as their LORD and SAVIOR will enter heaven for all of eternity and those who did not will be entering hell for all of eternity and that is the way that is. He designed both so He could take His own with Him when JESUS comes, and satan can take his own with him to hell along with the demons, the false prophet and the antichrist. Bliss or misery, it will be our choice. We do seal our own fate as we have a free choice to chose which way we want to go up or down.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Not a theocracy, LOL.

          • wandakate

            WHO said Hitler was a “Christian”? People who confess to be Christians are not always really Christians. President Obama said he was too, but you will know them by their fruits. What about Jim Jones and David Koresh and all the others that were false prophets. There are many people today pastoring churches that are claiming to be and they are not. Actions are louder than words.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Finally agree with you, LOL.

          • fran duffy

            What ignorance they are teaching in schools today

          • Disqusdmnj

            Creationism, for starters…

        • Ralph Spoilsport

          Timmy and Ralphie, you two are morons and you would rather have us under a Muslim, Communist, Socialist, Fascist, Nationalist, Atheist/atheist, humanist/secular humanist/secularist, Wicca/Pagan/Satanist/Luciferian, or some other evil religious regime than you would to have true freedom in YAHWEH EL ELOHIM.

          Your career in mindreading is a failure.

          I prefer religious freedom, not a government that plays favorites. You, however, seem to think that your religious views ought to be promoted by my government.

          • Pax Humana

            Speaking of a failure, Ralph, you as a biological source of rejection from your parents because your mother refused to swallow and your father refused to pull out sooner seems to mark YOU as one in your life. Furthermore, every time that I see people like you clamor for something called “religious freedom,” I can not help but to picture you in a uniform with a red star, a hammer, and a sickle, a swastika, a clenched fist, or something along those lines. Yes, please DO tell me how religious freedom went under THOSE places that had used symbols of countries that also used the ideologies that were behind those symbols again, okay? Please tell me how tolerant were jackbooted thugs like you were when you put people into the gas chambers, incineration pits, as human guinea pigs, and in the concentration camps, train cars, gulags, re-education centers, internment centers, workers’ camps, and the like again? Please tell me about the over 300,000,000 people that you and your evil kind murdered in the name of “open mindedness” and “the freedom of religion again?” Were I into alcohol, I would be like Kermit drinking the entire bottle of Jack Daniels in order for you to even REMOTELY have a chance of me believing YOU level of bullshit in your life!

          • Ralph Spoilsport

            Thanks for admitting total intellectual defeat, “Pax Humana”, and simply vomiting out insults instead of addressing actual political issues.

        • Tim Raynor

          Ah, so you’re against the Constitution, too. Got it. Plus you’re into the childish insults, which doesn’t help you with any credibility. You do know how to act like an adult, yes?

        • lazerhaze

          Keep screaming that from the mountain tops! The more you shout this delusional nonsense the faster you create more atheists.

          • Pax Humana

            Good, then that will make the coroners happy. Do you want to become a pay check for one of them, you servant of Lucifer? I guess you wanted to finish up what Hitler and the rest of the pawns of the Illuminati started many centuries ago, am I right?

          • lazerhaze

            Go get mental health treatment for your willfully chosen delusion stemming from parental mental and emotional abuse via religious childhood indoctrination. I pity people like you. Your minds, your lives twisted and intertwined with delusion and fantasy. You’re no different from the schizophrenic on the street corner shouting at his own delusions. Servant of Lucifer? Hitler? illuminati? Get professional help. A psychiatrist is your savior.

      • fran duffy

        Tim
        Heil Hitler

    • fran duffy

      Ralph
      If you are an atheist tell me what is your religious belief? NOTHING???

      • Ralph Spoilsport

        I don’t believe any gods exist, if that answers your question.

  • Catwoman

    Let them say there prayers but make sure a Christian says the last prayer..let the Christian say thank You Father for this day and for your word..the true word of the one and only God. The one this country was founded on. The one we put IN GOD WE TRUST on our money and in our courts. And end the prayer with please help the lost and guide them to the one and only truth….AMEN!!!!!!

    • Disqusdmnj

      Sounds like a fairly petulant god if he can’t stand the idea of people not obeying him and him alone. If there is one, and he created the universe and everything, he should be able to handle critiques and non-believers just fine. In fact, if he really wanted to, he could just speak in everyone’s mind all at once and tell everyone that he does indeed exist, and what he really expects of everyone. That’d probably close the book on all this having different religions nonsense, right?

      • Catwoman

        If God were to speak in everones mind, most people would be thinking..was that real?? Am i delusional?? They will have some excuse to deny it..just like they do today. And He does handle critique just fine..you are still here,..arent you? 🙂

        • Disqusdmnj

          No, if he actually existed and were all omniscient, he’d be able to tell each person individually something that no other person would know, so that they knew he was a god and not just a delusional voice. But he chooses not to. It’d be like me not telling my son when he’s done something wrong and needs to correct it – why should I stay silent? And I don’t mean like I spoke 2,000 years ago and that was enough… I mean, why wouldn’t I always be heard, always be a parent?

          And what do you mean by “you are still here, aren’t you?” Is he going to get angry and kill people in a flood again? That’s not the kind of “loving” god I would worship….

          • Catwoman

            Let me ask you this..why are you even on a Christian site..this article is in the Christian news.. why even bother if you dont believe..i will tell you why..because you are being persued by God..the same thing happened to me.. so you can either answer His call or continue living your lies..i pray you answer!! there is no point in talking anymore cause you r just not ready to stop sinning. We live in a world now where right is wrong and wrong is right..its only going to get worse..i pray you will see the truth someday.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Because the site reported on a judge refusing to fulfill his duties and follow the law and maintain the Establishment Clause. You may feel he can do whatever he wants as long as he follow’s your god’s commandments, but that’s not the way our American legal system works. .

            And I like talking to people. 😉

            But I’ll always be an atheist. If there is a god and he (or she) wants to speak to me, he can talk through my dog. That’d make me a believer! Otherwise, he’s just a fairy tale I’ve outgrown long ago.

  • Beau Best

    There are other reasons why the country is going down the pooper, and it’s certainly not because of Athiests/free thinkers. Otherwise all those Scandinavian countries would be destroyed, but instead they are leading the way in quality of life for citizens, where we are only leading in 3 areas, defense spending, people in jail and people who think the earth was created halfway through the Egyptian civilization!

    • HazumuOsaragi

      I was told I’d find the comments for this article instructive…

      • Disqusdmnj

        Beau’s seemed pretty instructive to me. 😉

    • fran duffy

      Lovely post Beau by an ignorant athesist

      • Disqusdmnj

        Facts are hard, aren’t they Fran?

  • Peter Leh

    people in atlanta are continuing to discriminate? Dont they know the war is over?

  • Stephen Riddick

    About time someone said it’s wrong to be a sodomite .Well said sir

  • Jazz Maroke

    Jesus said who is my mother and who is my brother but Those who do the will of my father ask yourself Christians are you doing the will of the father if not repent repent fall at the feet of Jesus Christ and he will redeem you remember also Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord will enter Kingdom of heaven have you looked after the orphans and the widows or are you trying to get into heaven with your own righteousness fall at Jesus Christ feet and repent faith only in Jesus Christ will save you
    People say hitler was a Christian but was a murderer was he doing the will of the father
    Jesus said even if you are angry with your brother you are committing murder in your heart repent

  • Terry Roll

    “We’re having prayers [by] atheists? We’re having Wiccans say prayers? How foolish can we be?” You know what is even more foolish?! Praying to a Jewish zombie that probably never existed!

  • HardCorePress

    To which God do Atheists pray too? They don’t believe in God or any gods for that matter! How stupid for an atheist to pray, who or what are they invoking to take action? May God surround Judge Roy Moore in protection and give Roy the strength to speak out more in Christ’s name! Godspeed to you Sir!

  • lazerhaze

    The more religious people kick and scream and make silly threats in their temper tantrum over loosing the hearts and minds of America’s youth and those with the intelligence to move humanity forward the faster they drive people away from their delusional, mythical, magical beliefs. I say let them set their own hair on fire and martyr themselves at the alter of conformity and “tradition”. The more they do it, the crazier they seem and the faster people let go of their need to conform and shake off the chains of religious belief. The more you scream and cry about it, The faster WE WIN!

  • John Mark IB

    GOD bless Judge Moore, he means well, but even he can’t stop liberty and freedom that makes this country truly free, so he should know better even though I agree with him but we can’t just prohibit their rights to freedom either and expect to have our own, yes, America was once great and was once a Judeo Christian nation, but the end times are approaching fast, but what right does one state have dictating to another state etc., and under our own free liberty and religious freedom system sadly so even the muslim can take over our system, but back to the atheists, rebellion is a natural part of our sinful nature before the new birth, so they will rebel until they see their need and GOD reaches their hearts, but absolute truth exists! and here’s hope for even the dear hating atheists, witches, satanists etc., funny everyone has a belief of some sort, just like their opinionsand while we all think ours are important (to us they are), but is truth absolute? or is it simply what we decide to make it? relative morality? (that’s your truth but not mine?) or is there an absolute law giver who set his absolute laws in motion and has given His Revelation of Himself?, through His chosen Nation Israel? through his chosen people the Jews?, through His Messiah and His Son, Jesus the greatest Living Jew!! can the hating atheist disprove the GOD they love to hate ha ha! 🙂 can the atheist disprove the GOD he loves to hate’s preserved Words in The Bible? seems the atheist only has issue with those horrible Christians who seem to care in the first place ha ha! 🙂 oh well here’s hope for even you dear hating atheist friends may GOD bless you and especially the Christiannews.net people for allowing this open air forum and my posts and may you all be blessed with love joy and peace in Jesus name time is short see hope have a blessed day life can only come from life no life = no life two humans = 1 new life unless your the poor octomom then it’s life=life =drugs =8 lives ha ha jk 🙂

    http://faithsaves.net
    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
    http://www.foi.org/free-resources/article/preservation-jewish-people/
    http://faithsaves.net/the-book-of-daniel-prophetic-proof-the-bible-is-the-word-of-god/
    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/

  • John Mark IB

    and with all due respect to and no offense intended to some here, (not going to debate you because there’s no debating proper interpretation, simple rules for plain sense makes sense unless you come up with none sense), but no name will be mentioned, who have a sadly erroneous view of the end times, and incorrect eschatology, please realize that whoever or whatever teachers are teaching you are seriously wrong possibly cults or Adventists end times errors? and very simply in GOD’S time table there are in Daniel 483 yrs from the decree and the rebuilding of Jerusalem walls and city up to the cutting off of His Messiah, to have taken place, Times of the gentiles are here and now as Jesus said are coming to an end and all that’s left on His Daniel’s 70 weeks time clock or 490yrs time clock are the 7 yrs tribulation period specifically dealing with His people National and spiritual Israel so it’s very simple His bride the raptured believers from 1 Thess 4:17 will be with Him during the missing periods in Revelation 4-21 or thereabout, and there is a rapture of His bride to take to the marriage supper of the Lamb which is where we will be not here during the 7yrs of hell on earth etc., tribulation dealing with Israel, the word in 1 Thess 4:17 caught up is the Greek Harpazo our English rapture or taking away is the general meaning it’s where the term comes from, so this is simple and proper exegesis and proper biblical interpretation, it’s the CIA context, interpretation and application, no offense but this is not protestant or catholic but Biblical exegesis and this is serious doctrine from folks who know the original languages and Love The LORD!! thanks for allowing this forum and my posts to the owners of christiannews.net
    May GOD bless you all with love joy and peace always in Jesus name amen
    the rapture concept here
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Th&c=4&v=17&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1115017

    http://faithsaves.net/

    http://faithsaves.net/eschatology/

    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/
    if you’re serious and really want the truth see the best there is on the subject Dr. Thomas Strouse here and enjoy
    series on Revelation here and

    http://bbc-cromwell.org/sundayschool2014.shtml

    http://bbc-cromwell.org/Seminary/Syllabi/NT%20702_Revelation%20Expositional%20Notes.pdf

    and nobody beats Dr. Thomas Ice

    http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/ttcol.html