‘Pope’ Francis, Roman Catholics Worldwide Observe ‘Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God’

HomilyROME — In the next Roman Catholic holiday on the liturgical calendar following Christmas, Catholics worldwide observed the “Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God” today, a tradition that is perhaps little known by Christians but would nonetheless be rejected by most.

The feast day is a long-held Roman Catholic holiday that is meant to celebrate Mary’s part in the birth of Christ, and is specifically held eight days after Christmas to mirror the eighth day after Christ’s birth when He was circumcised and given the name Jesus. It was first observed by Roman Catholics in the 13 or 14th century, but went through a number of name changes to its current title 1969.

“This celebration, placed on January 1 … is meant to commemorate the part played by Mary in this mystery of salvation,” Pope Paul VI wrote in his Marialis Cultis. “It is meant also to exalt the singular dignity which this mystery brings to the ‘holy Mother…through whom we were found worthy to receive the Author of life.'”

The current pontiff of the Roman Catholic religion carried on this tradition on Thursday, delivering a homily in St. Peter’s Square to a crowd estimated to number more than 100,000.

“This is precisely the mission of the people of God: to spread to all peoples God’s blessing made flesh in Jesus Christ,” Francis said. “And Mary, the first and most perfect disciple of Jesus, the model of the pilgrim Church, is the one who opens the way to the Church’s motherhood and constantly sustains her maternal mission to all mankind.”

“Mary’s tactful maternal witness has accompanied the Church from the beginning,” he continued. “She, the mother of God, is also the mother of the Church, and through the Church, the mother of all men and women, and of every people.”

The pontiff then asserted that Mary is necessary in understanding Christ.

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“The Blessed Virgin is the woman of faith who made room for God in her heart and in her plans; she is the believer capable of perceiving in the gift of her Son the coming of that ‘fullness of time’ in which God, by choosing the humble path of human existence, entered personally into the history of salvation,” he said. “That is why Jesus cannot be understood without His mother.”

“May this gentle and loving Mother obtain for us the Lord’s blessing upon the entire human family,” Francis concluded. “On this, the World Day of Peace, we especially implore her intercession that the Lord may grant peace in our day; peace in hearts, peace in families, peace among the nations.”

Other Roman Catholic leaders are likewise presenting messages today in observance of the feast day. Two days ago, the Catholic News Service released a video about purported apparitions of Mary in Rwanda, Africa.

“[W]e want to spread the message that Mary left to the world,” one man states in the video. “Not only Rwanda, but the whole world.”

There are several Marian holidays observed in Roman Catholicism throughout the year. Previously, Christian News Network obtained comment from Matt Slick of Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (CARM) about an annual celebration entitled “The Feast of the Queenship of Mary.”

“It’s just a manifestation of idolatry,” he said. “The Roman Catholic Church has elevated Mary to a goddess. … They’ve even said that she participated in the atonement.”

“Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserved only for God,” also noted Robert Thomas of Ex-Catholic Baptist. “Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. … The Scriptures clearly teach that Mary was a sinner and therefore needed a Savior, [but under] Pius XII, Catholics are required to believe under the pain of mortal sin that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven and Queen of the Universe. … [W]here is the Scriptural proof for that?”


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  • Gary

    More paganism from the Catholic religion. REAL Christians do not have holidays celebrating Mary, Peter, Paul, John, Abraham, David, Moses, or anyone but Jesus Christ. Catholicism is NOT Christianity.

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Catholics are real Christians. Catholics and Orthodox Christians are the original Christians and have been around since the time of Christ and hold true Apostolic Succession. When you see a picture of Pope Francis, you see a picture of the successor of St. Peter.

      • Mark Hamilton

        Amen brother.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          ‘Sister’ – but thanks! (not sister in the religious order sense but sister in the sense that I am a woman)

          • Mark Hamilton

            Amen Sister

      • Gary

        YOU are a LIAR. Filled with Hell, and on your way to Hell.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          This is simply pietistic hot air.

        • pax2u

          your hatred is consuming your soul

          I will pray for you

    • Mark Hamilton

      Protestantism cannot understand the vast riches of the Catholic Church because it is to busy with its anxiety towards the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church instituted by Jesus Christ.

      • Gary

        Every catholic who has ever died is now in Hell. Including ALL of the popes. Including Mother Teresa.

        • pax2u

          so this is why you support the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church

        • Mark Hamilton

          Is that including Peter, James, John, Bartholemew, Stephen, Thomas, Andrew,………………………………………………

      • pax2u

        they need to attack other Christians to support their fear that of the 30 thousand denominations, maybe they picked the wrong one

    • Spoob

      More hatred from Gary about things he doesn’t understand.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Where’d you go, Gary? Are you studying the Hebrew meanings for yom?

  • Neiman

    It is impossible for Mary to be the mother of God, God is self-existent. To be His mother, she would have to preexist Him and be greater than Him, making her god.

    There is not a single word in the Bible that says Mary has any intercessor role in Heaven, nor that she has any special role there.

    The only reference to a Queen of Heaven in the Bible is in Jeremiah and is a reference to idolatry.

    To give Mary any special role in the Church, other than recognizing her as having been blessed to bear the human nature of Jesus, is to rob Jesus of the glory that belongs to Him alone and God will not share His glory with anyone.

    One should never speak evil of Mary and we should recognize her unique role in the history of the Church; but everything the Roman Catholic Church has invented, by twisting God’s Word and by forcing their traditions on God’s Word, is in the spirit of the anti-Christ. It all elevates Mary beyond any role given to her and worse, it implies that she shares in the glory of the Lord and plays a role in our salvation. John Paul II was even working to have her declared co-redeemer with Christ.

    • Mark Hamilton

      Was the Holy of Holies considered “pure”? Wasn’t the Ark of the Covenant considered Holy? Surely the Tabernacle of the Lord Mary most Holy should receive recognition as the most pure of all the Saints. This only stands to reason. Of course Protestantism is void of reason, sacraments, and of course hermaneautics.

      • Gary

        Spoken like a true pagan.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          What do you mean by “pagan?” Anything that Gary hates but will not take the time to understand and refute?

          • pax2u

            I think that Gary attended the Jack Chick theological seminary of hatred

          • Gary

            According to the American Heritage Dictionary, a pagan is someone who is not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. Catholics are not Christians, Muslims, or Jews. I could have also used the term “heathen”.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, you, like other Protestants, use the term “pagan” as a catch-all pejorative insult for whatever it is you hate at the moment.

          • Gary

            Would you prefer to be called a heathen? You are that too.

          • pax2u

            do you prefer to be called a Klansman?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why, because Gary says so?

        • Mark Hamilton

          You haven’t an argument so you childishly mock. Not very enlightening for a sophist and heretic.

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Catholics do not elevate Mary, Mother of our Lord. God elevates her. We, as Catholics, simply believe what the Bible says and follow God’s leading.

      • Gary

        You are a liar.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          LOL! Like clockwork the chimes start clanging away.

      • pax2u

        wait to be told that you do not know what you believe

  • Magister_militum_praesentalis

    Here we go again, more historical ignorance and the setting up of a venue for the expression of rank Nestorianism.

    • pax2u

      Luke 2

      4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them

      and then there will be some who will deny the Bible

    • Neiman

      It is NOT Nestorinism:

      (a) It is impossible for a human being to give birth to God as God is eternally self-existent.
      (b) The mystery of God the Word becoming fully human while remaining fully God will never be understood in this life; but that it is a fact, is because God’s Word tells us it is so.

      The Latin verb incarnare meant “to make flesh.” When we say that Jesus Christ is God “Incarnate,” we mean that the Son of God took on a
      fleshly, bodily form (John 1:14). However, when this happened in the womb of Mary, Jesus’ earthly mother, He did not stop being deity. Although Jesus became fully human (Hebrews 2:17), He retained His status as God (John 1:1, 14). How Jesus is able to be both man and God simultaneously is one of the
      great mysteries of Christianity but is nevertheless a test of orthodoxy (1 John 4:2; 2 John 1:7). Jesus has two distinct natures, divine and human. “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me” (John 14:11).

      The Bible also teaches the Incarnation—Jesus became fully human by taking on human flesh. Jesus was conceived in the womb and was born (Luke 2:7), He experienced normal aging (Luke 2:40), He had natural physical needs (John 19:28) and human emotions (Matthew 26:38), He learned (Luke 2:52), He died a physical death (Luke 23:46), and He was resurrected with a physical body (Luke 24:39). Jesus was human in every way except for sin; He lived a completely sinless life (Hebrews 4:15).

      When Christ took on the form of a human, His nature did not change, but
      His position did. Jesus, in His original nature of God in spirit form, humbled Himself by laying aside His glory and privileges (Philippians 2:6–8). God can never stop being God because He is immutable (Hebrews 13:8) and infinite (Revelation 1:8). If Jesus stopped being fully God for even a split second, all life would die (see Acts 17:28). The doctrine of the Incarnation says that Jesus, while remaining fully God, became fully man.

      Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/God-incarnate.html#ixzz3NbD32mBD

      I will not debate you, I think you are thoroughly evil, but I will not allow your lies against what I believe to stand uncontested.

      • CrossedtheTiber

        Here is a description of Nestorianism from one of Christian News’ favorite anti-Catholics:

        http://carm.org/nestorianism

        “Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius who was born in Syria and died in A.D. 451 and who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople, and he repudiated the Marian title “Mother of God.” He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.

        Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.

        The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the “human person,” then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.”

        • Neiman

          You and Magister are liars to suggest I am subscribing to Nestorianism.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            “Liar/lying” coming from you has become a meaningless term. Everyone can see that you unload a steady stream of these epithets every time you are called to substantiate your accusations.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Do you believe that Mary is the Mother of God? If the answer is ‘no’ then, as Matt Slick points out, you are adhering to Nestorianism.

          • Neiman

            No, Mary is not the mother of God! No, I do not subscribe to Nestorianiam. That is a lie!

            1. God is self-existent, He cannot possibly have a mother or father, He is the I AM, He is God because He is God and has no beginning and no end.
            2. In John One we read that in the beginning, before time began, without there being any time, He already did exist as God:

            1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it. . . . “14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

            Through the Word all things, including Mary were made and thus she that was made by God cannot possibly give birth to the Being that made her. Flesh cannot give birth to Spirit, a human cannot give birth to God. God the Word “became flesh,”

            The same word, of whom so many things are said in the preceding verses; and is no other than the Son of God, or second person in the Trinity; for neither the Father, nor the Holy Ghost, were made flesh, as is here said of the word, but the Son only: and “flesh” here signifies, not a part of the body, nor the whole body only, but the whole human nature, consisting of a true body, and a reasonable soul; and is so called, to denote the frailty of it, being encompassed with infirmities, though not sinful; and to show, that it was a real human nature, and not a phantom, or appearance, that he assumed: and when he is said to be “made” flesh, this was not done by the change of one nature into another, the divine into the human, or the word into a man; but by the assumption of the human nature, the word, taking it into personal union
            with himself; whereby the natures are not altered; Christ remained what he was, and became what he was not; nor are they confounded, and blended together, and so make a third nature; nor are they separated, and divided, so as to constitute two persons, a divine person, and an human
            person; but are so united as to be but one person; and this is such an union, as can never be dissolved, and is the foundation of the virtue and efficacy of all Christ’s works and actions, as Mediator:

            We cannot understand this mystery, but we do know that Jesus humbled Himself taking , tabernacling in the human nature of a man, which human nature (soul/body) Mary bore in her womb; yet, He never surrendered the smallest portion of His preexisting divine Nature, He remained God and yet as to His soul/body very human – the God/Man, it being animated in life by His own Divine Spirit Nature. Jesus was equal to God, He called Himself the great I am, the self existent God.

            If you cannot understand that a frail/finite human being cannot give birth to the self-existent God, you are beyond all sense and reason, you are willingly deceived and in bondage to a lie.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I am not sure what your reason is for doing what you are doing. I think you are confusing the situation purposely . But for what reason. You can’t possibly think we would believe what you are telling us. I almost answered you before this post, then I stopped and gave it a little thought. No one can tell me who I should or can’t pray to!

          • Neiman

            You are right, no one can tell you how to pray or who to pray to, that is your free will choice; but, if it is not based on Divine Truth, then you have chosen to believe a lie and your prayers are of no value to you for time or eternity.

            You are right again, I do not think you should believe a single word I am writing. But, in the chance that I am correct, because I base it all on God’s Word, I would think as eternity is at stake, you would seek the Truth in God’s Word for yourself, by asking the Holy Spirit to reveal Divine Truth to you. Sadly, if you are Roman Catholic you do not rely solely on God’s Word or the Spirit of God, but depend mostly on the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church, led by frail finite, sinful men, like us all and that is very dangerous ground to stand on when heaven or hell is at stake.

            I have no authority, I am not your teacher; but, if you are born again of His Spirit, that same Holy Spirit wants to be your divine Teacher and Guide in all things pertaining to life and eternity. He will not be found in my words or those of the Roman Catholic Church, only in His revealed Word the Bible and in the Living Word – Jesus Christ.

            Now stop and think – how can a frail, finite human being give birth to eternal God? She cannot, unless she existed before Him and was greater than Him, being a god herself. So, that being true, the Truth must lie elsewhere and that is found ONLY in God’s Word, which tells us that this eternal God the Word became flesh, He took on Himself a human body and soul, while the life in Him was the self-existent, Almighty God.

          • pax2u

            maybe he now believes that Matt Slick is a pagan heretic

      • Magister_militum_praesentalis

        Neiman: “(a) It is impossible for a human being to give birth to God as God is eternally self-existent.”

        It certainly is possible for a human being to give birth to God since it happened in Bethlehem in a manger over two millennia ago. Oh ye of little faith!

        Neiman: “(b) The mystery of God the Word becoming fully human while remaining fully God will never be understood in this life; but that it is a fact, is because God’s Word tells us it is so.”

        No one said that it had to be understood in this life. However, it can be understood that Protestants have consistently misunderstood the purpose of the concept of Theotokos in order to perpetuate a post-Reformation grudge against whatever they perceive to to be “Catholicism.”

        The bottom line is that, despite all of the post-Reformation politicking about “Mother of God,” Protestants reveal their very weak and rather Gnostic-Docetic view of the Incarnation and Christ’s human nature when they dismiss it out of hand as “Catholic” and therefore “BAD.”

        • chrisleduc1

          Why don’t you explain to everyone what the Council of Ephesus meant by theotokos, in contrast to christotokos and anthropotokos and what was going on at the time so that everyone can understand what the Council was trying to emphasize, and why those other terms were not accepted. It would probably be beneficial for everyone. As you know, people take Scripture and take verses out of their historical or contextual context and use them for teachings they were never intended to teach, just as they do with decrees from councils. So explain to everyone that the Roman church is still emphasizing the same thing that was being emphasized as Ephesus 1.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am willing to do that. However, my point is to try to get Neiman to explain how he thinks Christ’s humanity is related to Mary’s. That is, if he believes they are related at all. It seems, like other Protestants, the only reason that they reject “Theotokos” is because they associate it with Roman Catholicism and the strawman of Mary being elevated into a goddess.

          • chrisleduc1

            Great, I would definitely appreciate it. I can’t speak for Gary, however most Protestants that I know reject the usage of theotokos to substantiate the claim that Mary is a mediatrix and co-redemptrix as those concepts are are developed fairly late. But anyway, I do look forward to your teaching.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, we might all pass out from holding our breath until Neiman replies.

            I will readily admit that I am uncomfortable with the extent to which Roman Catholic Marian devotions are drawn out after Trent and Vatican II. However, I do think that it is incorrect to associate “Theotokos” with the later concepts of mediatrix and co-redemptrix. That would be anachronistic.

            Rather, I think the point of the decisions rendered at Ephesus was to stress that, if Jesus did not receive real human flesh and a real human nature from another human being, then he could not fully redeem and save human beings in transformative exchange of natures. That is also the point of SS. Ignatius and Gregory the Great in their formulation of the exchange of natures.

            The problems of Nestorianism, Docetism, Aphthartodocetism, etc. arise when there is no mutual exchange, and Jesus’ flesh and human nature are something other than realistically human. The term and concept of “Theotokos” sums all of this up quite nicely.

      • Magister_militum_praesentalis

        Neiman: “I will not debate you, I think you are thoroughly evil, but I will not allow your lies against what I believe to stand uncontested.”

        These remain unfounded and unsubstantiated accusations as they were before. It simply functions as a ruse to keep from dealing with the arguments that I make. I bet you have not even noticed where I upvoted some things you said recently, either.

  • CrossedtheTiber

    It’s wonderful to see that the full video of the Mass was posted here. Perhaps some people will watch it and see that Catholics DO read the Bible!

    • Gary

      But they don’t believe it. If they believed the Bible, they would not be catholics.

      • Frank

        Yes they would run from that Antichrist church.

        • Spoob

          People should run from fundamentalism. It is brain cancer.

    • Neiman

      Yes, we can tell by all the graven religious images that surround the so-called Pope, including a statue of Mary.

      • CrossedtheTiber

        If we are not to have statues, then why did God command the building of statues after condemning the use of graven images?

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Exodus 25:17-19 and 1 Kings 6, Numbers 21

          • Neiman

            The objects made at God’s Command and those in the Temple of God were only shadows of things, they were not meant as objects of worship, they were not idols. But, the Roman Catholic Church has seized upon this to not only make such graven objects a matter of worship and money making, which of course as a deceived Roman Catholic you will deny, but are held onto as holy objects, a focus of prayer and worship of things other than God and that is idolatry. They are even blessed by so-called priests.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You continue to perpetuate the “idol worshiper” strawman despite having been called to explain yourself on more than one occasion.

          • Neiman

            I explain nothing to you, a child of hell.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Right, because you cannot, and you think that pasting huge walls of text is a sufficient substitute for your own lack of understanding.

            “Child of hell”—what bloviated, pietistic rhetoric.

          • pax2u

            that is the best he can do to defend his hatred of Christans

          • Spoob

            Spoken like a true, loving Christian. One that wears a sheet and hood.

          • pax2u

            he is only here to hate, not to explain

          • pax2u

            life has been hard on Gary and Neiman Phelps in Westboro Kansas since their dad Fred Phelps died, not as much fun protesting the funerals of Soldiers who died for America since Fred died,

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We only worship God. No one in the Catholic Church worships statues.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            This is not true. Once a year, on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement), the High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood on the Ark of the Covenant, which had images of 2 cherubim on the Mercy Seat.
            How is that not part of worship, in your eyes?
            Catholics do NOT worship statues. They were used as reminders, before there was photography, as portraits are today.
            Happy New Year, and God Bless!

          • Neiman

            They did not worship the Ark nor the Cherubim, but God only!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Who said that they worshiped either one of those things? Once again you ignore the point that Nick_from_Detroit and others have made to you before about the Temple decorations and the Ark.

            Everyone sees through this attempted deflection when you simply substitute the initial strawman of worshiping the objects themselves instead of dealing with the argument that was made.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I didn’t claim that they worshiped the Ark or the cherubim, did I?
            They used statues in their worship, was my point. As we Catholics do. See, no difference?

      • CrossedtheTiber

        Additionally – do you ever visit monuments? Have you ever gone to see statues of historical figures? Are those considered graven?

        • Neiman

          I know you think yourself clever, but making images of spiritual things, to represent souls in Heaven, which are used as objects of prayer and worship and secular monuments are NOT the same thing.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            How are they used as objects of prayer and worship?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Do you own a cross? This is a religious symbol. We do not worship statues. We only worship God.

          • Neiman

            No, I have never owned and never worn a cross. It is a graven image.

          • pax2u

            I do not think he accepts any church either, everyone but him is damned to hell

          • Spoob

            A cross is not worshipped. There is no reason not to have one. That is silly.

          • pax2u

            he is the one true “christian”
            at least in his mind

          • pax2u

            maybe he is afraid of the cross

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            For all of the railing you have done against SDA’s in other venues, your self-righteous pietism in saying things like this is no different than the legalistic pietism that they push.

        • pax2u

          maybe Mount Rushmore is pagan to these true “Christians”

      • ELAINE MARZANO

        So now were back to Mary? What makes you think you are so knowledgeable about Mary ? Mary has never been questioned before regarding her right to be called the mother of Jesus. What compels you to even suggest it now.?

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          ‘Cuz it is what them Catholics believe, therefore it MUST be BAD! /sarcasm

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            How did I know you would be right their to answer for me? I am so glad you are

        • Neiman

          See my previous reply to you.

    • pax2u

      sad to see those who’s hatred of Catholics is greater than any love of Jesus Christ

      God Bless you for your Christian Faith

      • CrossedtheTiber

        And you for yours!

  • pax2u

    this is the bait for the anti Catholic lunatic fringe

    thankfully most have no denominational doctrine and a theology of only hating Catholics

    I forgive them
    I pray for them
    I pity them

  • Frank

    Another Antichrist holiday.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      One that you probably do not understand yet dismiss it out of hand because you associate it with “Catholicism.”

      • Frank

        Catholicism and the pope are very Antichrist. This holiday is just another of their Antichrist teaching and practice to deceive and lead people away from Jesus to their false Jesus, their false gospel.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Right, just because Frank says so and claims that the Bible is the same thing as what Frank says. I know the game. It doesn’t work.

          • Frank

            God testifies this is so and forewarned us. Has nothing to do with me. Even the popes claim to be Antichrist in word and deed.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, your claims are unsubstantiated except for the implied “because Frank said so.”

          • Frank

            It’s not difficult to find the evidence even on the web. It’s all over the web. Though I knew of these things before the web. It just makes it that much easier to google truckloads of proof right from the Catholics’ mouths. Open your eyes.

          • Spoob

            I can listen to the words of countless history books, or I can listen to what you read in a Jack Chick comic book about Catholics. Who do you think I’m going to listen to?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            He probably things that Alexander Hislop’s and J. M. Carroll’s propaganda pieces count as legitimate history. Either that or he was inculcated with their pseudo-historical constructs in a trickle-down manner.

          • Frank

            I have not read of them and do not know of what they teach. Though I did just google the years of Hislop and the catholic church was identified as Antichrist by Christians before he ever found out. Whatever he found out.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I’m sorry, but you have provided no evidence that you have done such research, prayer, and study. The vast majority of what you say sounds like the same trickle-down anti-Catholic bigotry that people accumulate from listening to pastors or teachers who pass such things off to their congregants as “God’s Word” and “what the Bible plainly says.”

          • Frank

            You are correct that in this particular discussion I have provided no evidence study other than declaring the truth that the RCC is Antichrist and that God declares it to be so and that I stand on the Word of God. Numerous Christians all through history have declared the RCC to be Antichrist so it would be no wonder that in my declaring it that I might sound similiar.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Thus, it remains your opinion, no matter how much you try to conflate it with “the truth” and “what the Bible plainly says.”

            “Numerous Christians” is a fallacious appeal to the crowd. I can say the same thing that the Great Cloud of Witnesses have believed the same truth and passed it down as the deposit of faith throughout the history of the Church.

          • Frank

            It is not my opinion. It is what God declares through His Word.

            Numerous Christians is because it is so. I do not stand on their knowing the truth as evidence of what I speak is true but merely reference the fact that there have been numerous Christians and that obviously its no wonder that stating the fact that the RCC is Antichrist we would sound similiar in that statement of fact.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, it still is your opinion. Appealing to “numerous Christians” is fallacious reasoning because it cites a nebulous, unreliable group of people that you would like to think a certain way under ideal conditions.

          • Frank

            It is a fact the Catholic church is pure Antichrist as declared by the Word of God.
            You were the one who mentioned that I sounded like numerous others that have declared the catholic church and pope are Antichrist. I just merely in spirit was saying its no wonder. So there is no fallacious reasoning. Unless you were fallacious for saying I sounded like them.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, I said that you committed a fallacy that appeals to the crowd: Argumentum ad populum. How many times have we been over this? You are either being willfully obstinate or are having trouble comprehending what you read.

          • Spoob

            My bet is Jack Chick Comix.

          • Frank

            I don’t read Jack Chic. I do read God’s Word. And I trust His Word. And God’s Word says the catholic church is Antichrist. The evidence of all of this all all over the web and even directly from the catholic websites.

          • Spoob

            Once again, you are lying. The Catholic church is not mentioned in the Bible, how could it be when it came after the Bible?

          • Frank

            I am not lying it is described in full detail.

          • Spoob

            God did not testify and forewarn about the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

          • Frank

            God did very much so warn agains the catholic church. The catholic church is Antichrist. The evidence is abundant against the catholic church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why, because Frank says so, again?

          • Frank

            I stand on the Word of God. He says they are.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, he does not. Frank says that God says they are, however.

          • Frank

            God very much declares the catholic church is Antichrist.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Where? The Epistle to Frank 1:1?

          • Frank

            All through God’s Word. Just the word Antichrist itself in the original Koine Greek, from the Word of God.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Okay, but still nothing about the Catholic Church in either the koine Greek or the English translations.

          • Frank

            It is described in great detail. The entire evidence of it is overwhelming.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, paying lip service to what you think is there is still only your opinion.

          • Frank

            Not in the least. The popes even call themselves Antichrist.

          • Spoob

            And what is the source of your “evidence”?

          • Frank

            The Word of God, koine Greek, lexicon, the catholic church and its archives and papal websites and such. That’s just what I have personally researched and verified though there are plenty of other Christians that have done their own research and verifications of a lot more.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I have never seen any evidence of this in the posts of yours that I have read.

        • Spoob

          Considering that Catholics and the Pope are FOR Christ, don’t you think your claim that they are “antichrist” is a bit, well, stupid?

          • Frank

            They are not for Christ Jesus. They are for a false Christ, a false gospel. The Word of God is not stupid.

          • Spoob

            Don’t make me laugh, all right? I was raised Catholic. It’s all about Jesus Christ. The mass is done entirely in memory of Christ’s death and resurrection for us. Why don’t you go into a Catholic church sometime and speak to a Catholic rather than take your bad information from the hatemongers?

          • Frank

            I am not laughing. The mass is a perversion of Jesus. In complete perversion of memory of His death and resurrection. They follow a false gospel, a false Jesus. The follow the Antichrist.

          • Spoob

            The mass is done solemnly in praise of Christ, there is nothing ‘perverse’ about it. The gospel is the same and the Jesus is the very same one. Don’t try to tell the original Christians who’ve done it for thousands of years that your fundie hate cult knows better because you don’t.

          • Frank

            No, the mass is not done in solemnimity for the one and only Jesus. They just slap His name on it to try and deceive people. Their gospel is a very very different gospel than the one and only gospel of Jesus Christ. They are not the original Christians. They are not even Christians but of the Antichrist.

          • Spoob

            Listen, I’ve known people like you for as long as I’ve drawn breath. You find a fundamentalist cult and it teaches you to hate on the original Christians and it teaches you lies and nonsense. There is only one gospel, and all Christian churches INCLUDING Catholics teach it.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Absolute memorialism is not in the Bible. Just because “memory” is translated into English in passages dealing with the Eucharist, does not mean that the Bible pushes memorialism.

          • Frank

            I don’t know about memorialism but the catholic mass is a pure perversion and blasphemy. The Antichrist mass.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Wow. So, in other words, you reject it out of hand because you associate it with “Catholicism.” That is what I have been saying all along.

    • Spoob

      Catholics are Christians, sorry you disagree with established fact and history.

      • Frank

        The catholic church, it’s teachings and it’s pope are very Antichrist. To welcome anyone that holds to the Catholic church, it’s popes and teaching is to share in their sins and thus share in the Antichrist. So no the fact according to God is they are not. Though they may repent completely from the catholic church, it’s popes and teachings and accept the only Jesus and His finished work on the cross which has nothing to do with Catholics and be saved if they continue on with Jesus.

        • Spoob

          I’m sorry, what you’re saying can only be described as stupid. You’ve been sold a line. The world’s biggest Christian organization is not anti-Christ.

          • Gary

            Catholics are NOT Christians. If you understood what Christianity is, you would know that already.

          • Spoob

            Catholics were the first Christians. Any history book will tell you that. You must be crazy.

          • Gary

            Catholics are heathen who are lost in their sins and on their way to Hell.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Because Pope Gary has decreed so by divine fiat from his episcopal throne of the church of one!

          • Spoob

            Fundamentalist Christians are gullible, sour, hatemongering lying fools.

          • pax2u

            does he get this from his jack chick hate comic books

          • Frank

            Catholics are not the world’s biggest Christian organization. They are not even Christian. They are pure Antichrist. As described by God all through His Word. His Word is not stupid.

          • Spoob

            No. Catholics are the world’s biggest Christian organization, over 1 billion members worldwide, and can trace their origins via apostolic succession. You are wrong. You have been lied to. You lose.

          • Frank

            They are not the world’s biggest Christian organization. They are the world’s biggest Antichrist organization and spoken against heavily by God. They have no apostolic succession. You are the one who has been lied to. And unless you repent you will lose for all eternity.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, just because Frank says so?

          • Frank

            And again because God says so.

          • Spoob

            You have no credible source whatsoever for this torrent of hatred an intolerance. You are going up against centuries of recorded history and have no basis in fact whatsoever. You have been lied to, and now you are the one lying. Catholics are Christians, the first ones, despite what some 30 year old cult tells you.

          • Frank

            The Word of God is plenty credible. And there is zero history of apostolic succession. It’s all lies perpetrated by the Antichrist. Catholics are not Christians. The Catholics themselves say the pope is Antichrist. Irony of ironies. Though out of the double forked mouth on the other hand they deny it to try and decieve people. There are plenty of credible sources for all of this.

          • Spoob

            Your understanding of Catholicism is approximately zero. You don’t know that Catholics are not “Bible-only” Christians, that came centuries later. They give equal weight to sacred traditions and the magisterium. YOU elected to throw that away, and you did so on your OWN authority. The Catholics NEVER would say that the pope is the antichrist, how absurd. Provide your sources or be quiet.

          • Frank

            Yes I am quite familiar with the catholic Antichrist teachings. Very very familiar. It was started by Lucifer to deceive people away from the true and only Jesus. The Catholics very much declare the pope is Antichrist. It’s all over their websites. The popes even declare themselves to be God Almighty, to be Jesus, etc.

          • Spoob

            How paranoid schizophrenic, er, I mean, fascinating. Do you have documented evidence to show that it was started by Lucifer?

          • chrisleduc1

            What you say about Apostolic succession is true. Late first century and early second century church history attests to this.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why, because Frank says so?

          • Frank

            Because God says so. Has nothing to do with me.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Of course he has something to do with you, except not in the manner that you think. “Because God says so” functions in the exact same way as “because Frank says so” because you conflate your interpretations and opinions with “what the Bible plainly says.” You are entirely unable to distinguish between the two.

          • Frank

            I stand on the Word of God. And the Word of God speaks heavily against the catholic church and heavily describes them as Antichrist. If you do not accept this and continue to accept them then you will share in their sins at the end day. That’s not a situation anyone should want. It will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for you and anyone else in the catholic church along with all the rest that reject Jesus.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, there is no distinction here between Frank’s interpretation and what Frank thinks “the Bible plainly says.” There is nothing in the Bible about the Catholic Church being Antichrist.

          • Frank

            Yes there is but you are holding on to not wanting to be wrong all these past years of your belief system. And the evidence directly from the mouth of Catholics is out there.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! It is very clear that you cannot be bothered to put forth the intellectual effort to deal with the specifics of my statements. Your record is skipping wildly to the point of scratching the LP.

          • Frank

            I do not rest on my intellect. I do rest on Jesus, the Word of God. Man and his intellect’s wisdom will lead a person astray but God’s intellect and wisdom will not. They will lead unto eternal life in Christ Jesus. Maybe you do not like the Truth.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Typical fundamentalist pietism. God gave you an intellect to use for his glory. Do not declare the creation bad that he pronounced good like the Gnostics did.

          • Frank

            God gave me what He has given me this is true, although I do not rest on my intellect. MY intellect, MY wisdom. Which means its not God’s. There is earthly intellect and wisdom allowed by God. But to depend on it instead of God will lead a person astray. God gave us this body and yet we all chose to sin. Just because God gives us a tool does not mean we will choose correctly. Our heart is deceitfully above all things. And so can we deceive ourselves with our intellect and wisdom. Which is why I trust God’s intellect and Wisdom not mine.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Your intellect and your wisdom are not the same thing. I think it is very unhealthy and treading close to Gnostic dualism to put such a hard distinction between body/intellect and flesh/spirit. That is not the point of biblical passages which discuss such issues.

          • Frank

            Yes I know that intellect and wisdom are different. I can’t speak on gnostic dualism but what I have spoken is not against the Word of God.

      • Gary

        You continue to prove you are not a Christian, and you have no clue what a Christian is.

        • pax2u

          is the Westboro Baptist Church, a Christian Church?

        • Spoob

          Your hate proves you are not a Christian.

  • Spoob

    Seriously, why is this even considered “news”? It’s just bait to throw to the fundies and Catholic haters.

    • pax2u

      you are correct
      happy new year

    • Gary

      Are you a catholic?

      • Magister_militum_praesentalis

        That was probably a rhetorical question, right?

      • pax2u

        are you a Christian?

        because Catholics are Christians

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Pax2u,
          It’s the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God.
          Would she approve of what you, and some of the others, are posting in this combox?
          C’mon! Are your words meant to inform? Or hurt? How are they helping spread the Good News of Christ Jesus? Are they bringing the lost sheep home to the Catholic Church?
          Then why post them?
          Think, and pray, before you post. God Bless!

          • pax2u

            I forgive them their hatred of Christians
            I wish you well

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, Pax2u, you’re trying to inflict harm on them with venom and vitriol. And, that ain’t from God, is it?

          • James Grimes

            He would like you to forgive him because he doesn’t know any better. He will wish you well too.

          • pax2u

            Nick is a good person,
            I forgive the hateful bigots who attack Christians
            we are told as Christians to forgive those who hate us, as I forgive you

          • pax2u

            you do know that Nick is asking me to not attack you and Nieman as you attack my faith

          • pax2u

            I do forgive them for telling me that as a Catholic I am not a Christian
            I do forgive them for telling me that my father is Satan
            and I do wish you well

          • James Grimes

            Nick, the clown has posted more of his gibberish. I usually can’t figure out what he is saying, but he wants something. Anyhow, I lost patience with him a long time ago. I just ignore him now.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            ignoring you

          • pax2u

            I will pray for James Grimes,
            Nick is trying to spread the Love of Jesus Christ and Nick is a better person than I will ever be
            I thank you for your Christian faith

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m not better than you, Pax2u. It just takes discipline, fortitude, and constant prayers to the Holy Spirit.

          • James Grimes

            Thank you.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Can you discuss things with other people besides pax2u? You do not have to reply to him or about him if it bothers you that much.

          • James Grimes

            I enjoy interacting with Christians. Pax2u is a nuisance who generally doesn’t make much sense. I prefer not to engage with him.

        • Gary

          Catholics are not Christians. All of you are headed for Hell. And you won’t be able to get out.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred
            I pity you your anger that has consumed your eternal soul
            I will continue to pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for your salvation

          • Mircea Volosen

            The person you talk most likely is a unbeliever . I am not catholic and I know what I say .

          • pax2u

            you may be correct that gary does not believe in Jesus Christ

          • Gary

            I certainly believe in and on Jesus Christ. I pray to him directly, I NEVER blaspheme by praying to someone else, like catholics do.

          • pax2u

            I will continue to pray for you and forgive you
            do not allow your hatred to consume your eternal soul

          • pax2u

            I ask you to pray for me as I will pray for you

          • Vito Zabala Halasan

            …you have to read the 1st commandment…God warns us…

          • pax2u

            I agree that there is only one God,

          • YESHUAz BRIDE

            His name is Yahusha

          • pax2u

            I am a Christian and I believe in Jesus Christ

    • Linda

      Maybe as a reminder that we need to pray for these lost people who take glory from God and give it to Mary. We have family and others lost in this mess and we care so much for them.

      • Spoob

        No one does such a thing, Linda. Appropriate respect is given to Mary but it takes nothing from Christ.

      • CrossedtheTiber

        No glory is given to Mary. Mary always leads us directly to her Son, Jesus. She is the best example of a missionary that our world has ever known and we learn from her example how to live lives devoted to Jesus.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    We Catholics are imitating Christ, Who obeyed the Commandment of the Decalogue, “Honor thy father and mother,” when we venerate and adore the Blessed Virgin Mary.
    Without Our Lady’s, “Let it be done to me,” none of us could be saved (Lk.1:38).
    And, according to Sacred Scripture, all generations are to call the Mother of God “Blessed” (Lk.1:48).
    Our Lady, Queen of Peace. Pray for us!

    • Neiman

      That passage DOES NOT call Mary the Mother of God nor the Queen of Heaven, when you add or delete from His word, it is blasphemy.

      For Jesus to Honor Mary as His mother, why when she and Jesus brothers came to see Him, did Jesus deny that she alone was His mother, not giving her special status or that they were His brothers, but all that followed Him were is mother and brothers? Why when she asked Jesus to turn the water into wine, did He first speak harshly to her about asking Himself to reveal Himself before His time, even though in His love for her, He did as she requested?

      Lasty, you said, “Our Lady, Queen of Peace. Pray for us! Tell me, where in God’s Word does it clearly say that in heaven Mary can hear our prayers, tahat she is the Queen of Heaven and that she can intercede for us? If she intercedes, then both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not needed in their role as Intercessor. If those words are not in Holy Scripture, how do you dare add them?

      • Magister_militum_praesentalis

        Again, it would be beneficial for all if you clearly explained how and from what source Jesus derived his human flesh and human nature, along with how that relates to Mary being his mother.

        • Neiman

          Because by your past conduct, you do not deserve an answer and would only use it as a means to attack Protestantism and to defend your Roman Catholic Church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Incorrect. As before, using the supposed “past conduct” as a smokescreen to try to deflect from dealing with arguments does you no favors. The accusation remains unsubstantiated. Also, I will point out to you again that I am not Roman Catholic.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OH my goodness, you are not a roman catholic. I was going to ask you to marry me. how could you do that to me? OK for you… now for sure I have to take a break. Just kidding.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! I hope I can redeem myself in your eyes. 😉

            Actually, although I very much respect the venerable tradition and theology of Roman Catholicism, I tend to side with Eastern Orthodoxy on most theological and ecclesiological issues.

            There are many times when I am in mutual agreement with Catholics. I still consider my soteriology to be very Augustinian in terms of the relationship between divine grace and the human will.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hi, I think you are fine. I think I started something, don’t know how but I do not like it . could you check it out for me re: nick I am not sure what happened

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Which thread are you talking about? I don’t think you made Nick upset or anything.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I was worried about what gary said to nick . I said nothing to nick to upset him. when I looked the post up above it is when I saw what gary said to nick.

          • pax2u

            Nick is a very good person, and I pray that someday I will have his strength
            I am weak and a work in progress
            I want to also thank you for your posts

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Thanks for responding , I think nick will be just fine. and so will you. never let yourself down. you can be anything you want in this life you have to want it bad enough.

          • pax2u

            Nick is a good Christian, and he is helping me to forgive those who hate my faith
            I very much appreciate your posts and may God hold you in the palm of his hand

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OH, pax2u, You are wonderful. Nick has a good friend in you. you two can be best buddies. I am so glad he is helping you. You 2 can be friends for life and help each other. and thank you for the wonderful blessing that is the best one I ever had. I will cherish it for my lifetime. Just know that God loves you both very much.

          • pax2u

            you make me smile
            I have an Irish temper, and need to continue to work to forgive those who hate my faith
            Blessings to you

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I think gary said something terrible to nick. and then I talked to him . I might have to go talk to gary . He is the worst form of human being. he needs t be put out of his misery.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, Gary says those kinds of things to just about everyone except Neiman. I would not let it get to you.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            So gary is the one with the problem not nick?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            If I remember correctly, Gary has shown sympathy with and support for the Phelps clan and Westboro Baptist Church.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Ok, it is like you are speaking a different language . I am new to this site. don’t have a clue as to what is going on. have patience with me .please.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No problem! I think you are correct.

            Nick has been very charitably trying to refute the anti-Catholic bigotry and stereotyping that has been posted by people such as Gary, Frank, and Neiman.

            Gary is responding to Nick with the same vitriol that he does to everyone else he perceives to be “Catholic.”

          • Gary

            I know a few people who used to be Catholics, but God had mercy on them and saved them out of that false religion. A couple of them attend the same church I attend. When God saved them, they left the Catholic religion behind.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What church do you and they attend?

          • Gary

            A Baptist church in NC.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is not very helpful.

          • pax2u

            the Westboro Baptist Church protests the funerals of Soldiers who have died for America
            they believe that since America does not condemn gays that America is an evil Country

          • Gary

            I don’t have a problem. I tell people the truth, and some of them hate to hear it.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You tell the truth in the sense that you provide a very nice model for the way that fundies in the Fred Phelps vain think and act.

          • Gary

            What you call a “fundie” is someone who actually believes the Bible.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! Obviously you would say that. Would you have me to believe that the type of fundy you are is an ignorant, bigoted solipsist who thinks that his word is the same as God’s Word? No, you would not.

          • Gary

            What you believe is not important to me. And really, there is nothing gained by our arguing. I don’t believe Catholicism is true to the New Testament, so we will never agree on much of anything.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You are probably right about the arguing. However, if you say something historically ignorant or theologically baseless, I will probably comment on it.

          • Gary

            But I never do that.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Riiiight.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Holy cow what a crazy night. The next time someone crazy lady wants to marry you, you better run for your life. I can not believe I think I went thru a flood of emotions already. To tell you the truth I get more terrified with every thing I read. How bad is this going to get.?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, I can’t say that it happens to me all that much! I have been happily married for almost twelve years now. 🙂

            What are you terrified about, Westboro, the comments here, all of it?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            you know every time God sends me to a new site this happens to me. I don’t want you to think am a lunatic. but he has me doing this 2 years now . the only one one that really knows is SATCitizen.
            and one more guy. He will be wiling to explain it to you. if you know him he is very much like you.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hi, I did not mean to leave you. but the boys Nick and Pax2u were so sweet they were thanking me for helping them. When in reality they were helping me. they gave me a blessing I will never forget. When they told me God had me in the palm of his hands I lost it. I haven’t been able to stop the tears. did you see the post from Pax2u regarding the Westboro Baptist church. He said they were protesting the funerals of soldiers who have died for America they believe that since America does not condemn gays that America is an evil country.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, the whole Westboro thing is pretty toxic stuff.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I just sent you another post. Are you kidding me? why is this all coming from NC. what is the attraction.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Why is gary allowed to do what he wants. I knew their was something wrong right away. doesn’t anybody else notice this. When I hea rhis name it scares me. he is to close to doing bodily harm to someone and very soon.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, I don’t know how closely Gary is connected to the actual WBC, but he has expressed admiration for Fred Phelps.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Too close for comfort. Did you read the post I got today from him. OH OH . my granddaughter is pulling my arm she wants me to go with her. boy she is strong for a 2 year old. catch you later, if I am still coherent.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            You already have. thank you for responding to my craziness. now that we are best friends we can talk about our world filled with lunatics. Right??

          • Neiman

            You only and always with passion, anger and hate defend the Roman catholic Faith and attack all Protestants that oppose that religion. When you stop lying about your Catholic faith and stop acting like The Master Commander of Military forces of Rome, we can talk.

          • pax2u

            if Billy Graham does not hate Catholics does that make him not a Christian?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No. I speak up just as passionately about the issues I am interested in like you do about Catholicism, SDA legalism, and atheism. Please do not conflate that with “attacking” your person.

            You should be able to distinguish between criticism of your method and positions and attacks on your person. If you were able to do this, I am sure that your apologetical style would improve on all fronts.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “When you stop lying about your Catholic faith and stop acting like The Master Commander of Military forces of Rome, we can talk.”

            This is an unsubstantiated accusation. It is perfectly acceptable for a person to argue for what he believes is the historical orthodox faith of the Christian Church without being a Roman Catholic shill or even a Roman Catholic.

            If you would only pay attention to history, chances are you would be able to tell that the Church has not always been about the big, bad, meanie Roman Catholic Church against Protestants and non-denominationalists. You are operating in a historically anachronistic environment that is fenced in by the Radical Reformation on one side, and a generic, trickle-down anti-Catholic tradition on the other.

          • Neiman

            Anyone that asks me a question, I almost always answer and at length. Just not to your Master Commander of the Roman Forces (Magister Militum Praesentalis)

          • pax2u

            at least you condemn the KKK who hate Catholics

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, you may reply to them at first, but if they give you any kind of trouble or challenge, it then turns into you playing the victim and insulting the other side as being childish, mentally deficient, or a Papist shill. Anyone who reads your posts can see this pattern is very consistent.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman: “Just not to your Master Commander of the Roman Forces (Magister Militum Praesentalis)”

            Your attempted Google translation of my Latin username is a bit off. Does this mean I can call you “kein Gehirn Mann” in German?

          • pax2u

            I must confess that I am part of the left handed Albino
            Jesuit Assassin Monks that control the super duper computer in the lower,
            lower, lower basement of the Vatican, that has the names and addresses of all
            of the anti Catholics of the world in its data base

            You understand that we control the super super duper
            duper Vatican drone that flies the world spraying the anti Catholics with holy
            water to perform an exorcism on your house

            Is it raining outside of your house right now? Or is it
            my Vatican drone, you may never know

            Bwahahahahahahaha

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Why if he does not deserve an answer do you think you do? You would like to have this whole thing go your way. I have news flash for you . It won’t happen. And by telling someone they do not deserve an answer is not going to help you one tiny bit.

        • pax2u

          may God bless Nick for his willingness to try to communicate with these very sad and angry souls

        • ELAINE MARZANO

          I am on top of 1 post and you are on top of me

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yeah, unfortunately Disqus can get rather jumbled and disorganized.

            The easiest way to follow the order of posts is to click on the arrow at the top next to your picture. If you want to look at the context, the best thing to do then is click on the article title and sort the replies by Newest.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OK, thanks I think. you have to forgive me I went to bed at 3:30 this morning and got up at 6am been up ever since. I was looking for a nice quiet evening at home last night but that was not to be. My neighbor was going ot have some friends over and when the count got to 30 she realized her hose was not big enough. so hse called my daughter to see if she would ask me if they could borrow my house. nice going smart move. these kids have lived here for years the call me mom. so of course I said OK. they let after cleaning up my house at 3am. add a couple of teen agers and a couple little ones. sond like fun to you.? now I am waiting for my son and his family to get here . He worked last night till 3am so they never left S.C. until 12 noon today and it is a 12 hour drive with a 2 year old and a 4 year old. they won’t get in until midnight or a little later. I see a late night coming up again.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Neiman,
        I didn’t put Mother of God, nor Queen of Heaven, in quotation marks, did I? That’s how quotation marks work. When I quote Scripture, I use quotation marks.

        I’m not sure what you’re trying to say in your second paragraph. Christ brothers were His cousins, as we discussed a couple of weeks ago, remember? You didn’t have any answers to the Church’s plausible explanations. And, Christ called His mother “woman” at Cana to hearken back to Gen.3:15. Saint John tells us that He did this again, on the Cross, when He entrusted the care of Mary to John, thus, proving that He didn’t have any brothers. Since, the brothers would have been responsible for caring for Our Lady.

        Lastly, do you believe in the Trinity? If so, why have you added to the God’s Word? Because, the word “Trinity” is not found in the Scriptures. Besides, she is Queen of Heaven in Rev.12. And, Saint Paul called for intercessions in 1 Tim. 2:1–4. God Bless!

        • Neiman

          The Trinity is fully explained in Scripture, it is clearly established

          I Timothy 2 “2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.”

          This is a call for his fellow Christians to intercede in prayer on earth, it says NOTHING at all about saints in Heaven interceding for those on earth. It also denies Mary as an intercessor, as it says there is only one such mediator – Jesus Christ.

          Revelations 12: This passage does not speak of Mary nor ascribe to her the title Queen of Heaven. While one might see a faint allusion to Mary therein, this is the Church” “Here we see that early prophecy eminently fulfilled in which God said he would put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, Gen. 3:15 . You will observe, The attempts of Satan and his agents to prevent the increase of the church, by devouring her offspring as soon as it was born;
          of this we have a very lively description in the most proper images. We see how the church is represented in this vision. (1.) As a woman, the weaker part of the world, but the spouse of Christ, and the mother of the saints. (2.) As clothed with the sun, the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having put on Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, she, by her relation to Christ, is invested with honorable rights and privileges, and shines in his rays.”

          Show me Mary’s Name or any allusion to Mary being the Queen of Heaven or you have added to God’s Word and Revelation bears a very strong condemnation of anyone that would add to or delete from this revelation of Jesus Christ.

          It is solely a sad Roman Catholic tradition that Mary was sinless or did not bear other children. Nonetheless, when Mary appeared at the door, the Apostle referred to those men with her as the brothers of Christ, not cousins. Further, Jesus made it clear that His disciples were His only true mother and brothers. Lastly, you are reading something into scripture not explicitly stated that these so-called brothers were Jesus cousins or that giving Mary into the care of John implied she had no other children.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            No, the Most Holy trinity is alluded to in Scripture, just as Mary’s perpetual virginity is. The term wasn’t coined, and the doctrine wasn’t defined by men, until a couple of centuries later. So, if you profess a belief in the Trinity, you are professing the doctrine of men.
            (Also, Elizabeth said to Mary, upon her arrival, ” And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Lk.1:43). What is the difference between “Mother of my Lord” and “Mother of God“?)

            Intercessor and Mediator do not mean the same thing. Or, was Saint Paul wrong to ask for intercessions? Saint John saw bowls of incense in Heaven, which he said “are the prayers of the saints” (Rev.5:8). He also saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar, who cried out to God (6:9). Remember, Christ said, “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mt.22:32).

            We know that Rev.12 is about Mary by verse 5, which is referring to Psalm 2:9, a Messianic psalm.
            Finally, Christ was a practicing Jew, He alone obeyed the Law perfectly. Since the Law demanded that the children take care of their parents, Christ would have been violating the Law to entrust Mary’s care to John. Christ showed how important the care of parents was to Him when He admonished the Pharisees’ abuse of Corban (Mk.7:11).

          • Neiman

            You are throwing stuff all over the place to avoid the issue.

            Mother of God: “It is biblical to say that Mary was the
            mother of the Lord Jesus Christ during His incarnation on the earth. However, Catholics believe it is not enough to say that Mary was the mother of Jesus. Pope John Paul II, in a speech in 1996, encouraged people “not only to invoke the Blessed Virgin as the Mother of Jesus, but also to recognize her as Mother of God” (L’Osservatore Romano, 4 December 1996, p. 11). This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8)”

            Mother of the Lord: Lord is a title/position, Jesus being the highest ranked being in Heaven and on Earth, the Lord of all.

            The Lord my God: So they are distinct. God is His Nature, Lord is His rank or position.

            Elizabeth was honored that she who was already pregnant with Jesus was bearing Elizabeth’s Lord.

            The Trinity does not appear in Word, but it is clearly taught and has always been understood: “The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16)” These three are one!

            Intercession/Mediation/Advocate: “…4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.…” I Timothy 2 “It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.” Romans 8:34 “And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.” John 2

            The only Person between God the Father and the saints of God is Jesus Christ. There is not a single passage wherein Mary is any of these things. There is not a single passage that says she even hears our prayers.

            The prayers of the saints and of those in Heaven are never spoken of as petitions made on behalf of the saints, while one might imply that it is, it is not mentioned in Scripture. Further, the prayers are an incense, a sense of the collective prayers of all of God’s children in Heaven and on earth, and do not speak of intercession, they do not speak of any inhabitant in Heaven, except God, hearing or answering our prayers, this is all manufactured out of whole by cloth by the Roman Catholic Church and cannot be supported by any clear words in God’s Word, only by Roman Catholic traditions. In a similar manner, Psalm 2:9 makes no reference at all to Mary.

            In ever possible way you and your Roman Catholic Church have not one word from Scripture to support the vast majority of the RCC’s doctrines.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I’m only responding to your objections. Who are you copying from this time?
            The title Theotokos, i.e., God Bearer, Mother of God; is the same as saying, “The mother of my Lord.” Jews called God “Lord” (Adonai) to keep from saying His name, YHWH, which they considered sinful. Whomever you copied this from is wrong. How can someone be the mother of a title/position? This is hair-splitting on an unprecedented level!

            Ever-Virgin, Perpetual Virgin do not appear in Word, but is taught and has always been understood: For reasons I’ve previously explained to you.

            Catholics agree, Christ is the sole Mediator between the Father and men. But, He is not the sole intercessor, because they are different things. Unless, Paul was wrong to ask for intercessory prayers? Plus, prayers and petitions are the same thing. The martyrs were under the altar in Heaven and cried out in prayer for God’s justice. Psalm 2:9 proves that the “male child” who rules “with a rod of iron” is Christ. Therefore, the woman is Mary.

            The truth is in front of you, Neiman. You just refuse to see it, I’m afraid. God Bless!

          • Neiman

            A. I don’t ask for you to bless me. Please do not!
            B. You cannot prove any connection between Psalm 2:9 and the passage in Revelations meaning Mary.
            C. Being the intercessor between God and man is quite different from being an intercessor in prayer. There is no passage of Scripture that says the souls in Heaven, not even Mary, are hearing the prayers of the children of God or are interceding for them.

            Show us where Mary being a perpetual virgin is taught, exact passages only, no Roman Catholic traditions please. You never explained it to me.

            If I said I am so pleased that the mother of my President has come for a visit, it talks of his title/position, not who he is as a human being.

            Why do you Catholics worry about where I copied a passage, rather than refuting what is said?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Is that the good pietistic Christian’s version of flipping the bird when you tell someone not to bless or pray for you?

          • Neiman

            I do not believe we pray to the same God!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Stop the pious trumpeting and deal with my arguments. Please.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            A. What? You never say, “God Bless” to people? I apologize. I didn’t know that it was insulting to you.
            B. I did prove it. Who do you say “rules with an iron rod” besides Christ? Psalm 2 is about Christ.
            C. Christ is the Mediator between the Father and man, not intercessor. And, Catholics don’t claim that Mary is an intercessor between the Father and man. There is not passage of Scripture that says God is a Trinity, either. The souls in Heaven pray to God, not for themselves (they’re already saved) but for us.
            D. Do you really want me to repost my comments, vis-a-vis Mary’s perpetual virginity, that you refused to respond to?
            E. Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (Lk.1:41), she knew God was inside Mary. Not some lord.
            F. Can’t you defend your beliefs from God’s Word, without copying the teachings of other men?

          • Neiman

            A. I doubt the God you speak of is the God of the Bible.
            B. You did not prove anything about Mary in connection of the two passages, one thing does not automatically equal the other.
            C. ““Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that
            is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh
            intercession for us
            (Romans 8:34) Oh, I forgot you Catholics do not live by God’s Word.
            D. I answered your false proofs elsewhere,
            E. Not ‘some Lord,” her Lord and ours.
            F. What you hate is you cannot refute what they say.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            A. My God is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, as revealed in the books that proclaim the Good News of Christ Jesus. Is that good enough for you?
            B. Again, who do you say rules with a rod of iron, if not Christ?
            C. Why did Paul ask for “intercessions” be made for “all men” in 1Tim.2:1? Didn’t he know he should only go to Christ?
            D. No, you didn’t.
            E. Exactly. The Mother of Our Lord, i.e., the Mother of God.
            F. I have. Repeatedly.

          • Neiman

            A. That still does not make it so.
            B. It does mean Christ, but that does not connect Mary to the passage in Revelation, unless by the most remote connection. This is clearly the Church.
            C. There is nothing wrong with people on this earth praying the prayer of intercession for others on earth to Christ our Intercessor with God, but it does not prove or imply those in heaven hear our specific prayers or intercede on our behalf. It is not thus stated in Scripture.
            D. Yes I did!
            E. No the Mother of Her Lord, is not the same thing as being the Mother of God, the latter being impossible.
            F. No you have not, you just complain that it is the work of others.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            A. Yes, it does.
            B. Yes, it does.
            C. Yes, it does, and, yes, it is.
            D. No, you didn’t.
            E. Yes, it is.
            F. Yes, I have.

          • Neiman

            Juvenile response! You are not one looking for truth at all.

          • chrisleduc1

            “No, the Most Holy trinity is alluded to in Scripture, just as Mary’s perpetual virginity is.”

            Mary’s perpetual virginity was alluded to in Scripture? Would you mind showing me the references for that and if you have them also the earliest teachings on that?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Here’s a copy and paste from another blogpost combox on the same subject. I can link it, if you’d like, to see my responses to all of the objections?

            There are three passages of Sacred Scripture that implicitly point to Our Lady’s Perpetual Virginity and the fact that she did not have other children:
            In Is.7:14 we are told that the sign will be that “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanu-el” (cf. Mt.1:23). Scripture tells us that a woman will bear a child and still remain a virgin. If the power of the Holy Spirit can conceive the Son of God, without Mary knowing a man in the biblical sense of the word, the Son of God can surely be born without violating Mary’s virginal pureness, correct?

            In Lk.1:34, after Gabriel the Archangel informs Our Lady that she will conceive and give birth to the Son of God, she asks, “How can that be, since I have no knowledge of man?” Now, if her marriage to Joseph was supposed to be a normal, child-bearing marriage, why would she ask such a question? She was already married under the Law of Moses (this is why Joseph was going to divorce her “quietly”). She would have expected to have children of her own after the marriage was consummated, correct? How else can you explain her question to the angel? Unless, she and Joseph had planned to remain virgins during their marriage?

            Finally, in Jn.19:25-27, Saint John tells us that Christ gave the care of His mother to “the disciple whom He loved” right before He died, and, that “from that hour the disciple took her into his own keeping.” Under the Law of Moses, if Christ had other brothers, it would be their responsibility to care for their mother. Not a non-family member. Why would Christ violate the Law as one of His last acts, if He had brothers born of Mary? God Bless!

          • chrisleduc1

            I already wrote a reply, but its says it “is waiting to be approved by Christian News Network.”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            10-4. If you had a link in your comment, it probably went to the moderator to prove it isn’t spam.

          • chrisleduc1

            It didn’t. I just re-write it in a few posts.

          • chrisleduc1

            Re: IS 7:14 That verse says absolutely nothing about perpetual virginity. It states a simple matter of fact, an “alma” will conceive and bear a son. Nothing more and nothing less.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, a virgin will bear, past tense, a son. I.e., she will remain a virgin.

          • chrisleduc1

            You’re joking right? Actually, “will bear” in english is future tense. And what really matters is what it is in Hebrew and Greek as those are the inspired tenses.
            That verse says nothing about perpetual virginity. Its so absurd to suggest such a thing because even the strongest proponents of that position don’t use that verse. That should tell you something….

          • chrisleduc1

            Re: Luke 1:34. This is really an embarrassing explanation and truly a perversion of God’s Word. First, they were engaged. Luke 1:27 makes that clear. Since they were engaged, they could not legally have relations. So the rest of the explanation is just trash. Deut 22 also shows how it was used to consummate the marriage union. To be married and remain a virgin would be to disobey God! You have to remember, these were devout Jews. God commanded after the Flood to “be fruitful and multiply.” It was viewed as a curse if you were marrried and could not conceive…

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            Jews didn’t get “engaged” back then. If they weren’t married, why was Joseph going to divorce Mary? Remaining a virgin would not be disobeying God. There were stipulations for girls/women taking vows in Num.30. There were women who had a liturgical role at the Tabernacle (cf. Ex.38:8; 1Sam.2:22). There were virgins who performed tasks at the Temple in Jerusalem (cf. 2Mac.3:19-20; Mishna Shekalim 8, 5-6; Babylonian Talmud Kethuboth 106a).

          • chrisleduc1

            1. Those virgins were not married. Please, do yourself a favor and do some research.

            2. Jews didn’t get engaged? Really? Then what does Luke mean in Luke 1:27? Please do tell? The greek word is μνηστεύω mnēsteuō and the sentence is translated in the King James “To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.” Same word is used in 2:5 “To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.”

            The Jewish encyclopedia absolutely shuts you down my friend:

            http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3229-betrothal

          • chrisleduc1

            Here’s another Jewish resource. Please, do yourself some research before you go out in public and make yourself out to be a fool.

            “According to Torah law, marriage is a two-step process. The first stage is called “kiddushin,” and the second step is known as “nisu’in.” Both kiddushin and nisu’in are accomplished successively beneath the chupah. Kiddushin is commonly translated as betrothal, but actually renders the bride and groom full-fledged husband and wife. After this point, if, G‑d forbid, they decided to part ways, a “get” (Jewish divorce) would be required. However, the bride and groom are not permitted to live together as husband and wife until the second stage, the nisu’in, is completed.1″

            http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/477335/jewish/The-Betrothal.htm

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, this is what I said. They were married during the betrothal period. Is English your second language?

          • chrisleduc1

            No, what you said was

            “Jews didn’t get “engaged” back then.”

            Why did you say that? Because I said: “First, they were engaged. Luke 1:27 makes that clear. Since they were engaged, they could not legally have relations.”

            Your response: “Jews didn’t get engaged back then.”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            Because, a First Century Jewish betrothal was not the same as an engagement. From your own reply:
            “Kiddushin is commonly translated as betrothal, but actually renders the bride and groom full-fledged husband and wife. After this point, if, G‑d forbid, they decided to part ways, a ‘get’ (Jewish divorce) would be required. “
            How does any of that contradict what I wrote? Kiddushin is not an engagement. Do couples get divorced if they split during the engagement?
            This is not that complicated, really.

          • chrisleduc1

            Wow.. Have you forgotten what the whole point of this discussion is?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Wow…Can’t you admit that you were wrong?

          • chrisleduc1

            Do you have a learning disability? You originally asked what the explanation was for Mary asking the angel what she did. Ive given a simple answer. They were betrothed. That means they could not love together or consummate the marriage. Pretty simple. She was betrothed but not able to have sexual relations.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            But, I referred to the betrothal, not by name, in my original comment. You claimed they were engaged. They weren’t.

            Now, if you’re right, Mary was soon expecting to live with Joseph and consummate the marriage, correct? When Gabriel told her that she would have a son, wouldn’t her reaction be, “That’s great! God is great!”? Wouldn’t she have expected to have children?
            Why does she ask “How can this be?”
            Also, she next says, literally, “Since I do not know man?” Not, since I do not YET know man? She does not use the past tense, she uses the present indicative, which implies that she intends to remain a virgin.

          • chrisleduc1

            Its in the present tense. The Greek present simply states the matter taking place or going on in present time. If Mary had meant to speak about intentions for the future, that would be the imperfect. The Present is simply that however, present. It is no way indicates the future.

            Would you mind citing where this interpretation of Scripture first came about? Or at least how far back you can trace it? I can’t find ANY commentators that take this position. None of the Ante or Post Nicene Fathers that I can find intepret it this way…. Are you trying to teach some new interpretation?

          • chrisleduc1

            http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

            For action happening at the present time, only the ‘present tense’ is available. Whether the writer is wishing in any particular instance to emphasis the progressive aspect of the verb or just indicate a simple occurrence at the present time, there is only one choice of tense to use. Therefore, one must consider the context and the basic meaning of the verb to determine whether the emphasis is on the continuous aspect of the action or merely on the present time element. It may be that no real emphasis on progressive action is intended but, for a statement requiring the element of present time, there is no choice but to use the ‘present tense’. (Of course outside the indicative mood the emphasis almost certainly will be on the progressive element of the verb, since the aorist tense could readily be employed).

            The future tense is mainly found in the indicative mood and therefore primarily refers to the future time. Since the future tense functions very much like a potential mood (because the action is only as of yet conceived), there is no reference to the progress of the action. In this sense the aktionsart of the future tense closely resembles that of the aorist, being merely a simple occurrence.

          • chrisleduc1

            If Mary wanted to express what you are trying to suggest, she would have simply said, How can this be since ‘ I will not’ know a man i.e. future tense in english, but she does not, she simply uses the present, affirming the simple fact that as of the moment she is a virgin. But hey, if your interpretation has has historical basis, show me. Id love to see it. I don’t want to be wrong any longer than possible. So please, show me where this was taught in the first…well… how about even in the first THOUSAND years of the Church?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            I will respond in a new thread, at the top of the combox.

          • chrisleduc1

            Do you have a learning disability? You originally asked what the explanation was for Mary asking the angel what she did. Ive given a simple answer. They were betrothed. That means they could not love together or consummate the marriage. Pretty simple. She was betrothed but not able to have sexual relations.

          • chrisleduc1

            Its still called an engagement:

            Before The Jewish Wedding

            The following are some common customs before a Jewish Wedding:

            Tena’im–The Engagement: Engagement in Jewish law is more than just the intention to marry; it carries considerable legal and social significance. The official Jewish engagement takes place at the groom’s table, with the signing of “Tena’im,” which creates the Jewish legal status of “engaged.”

            http://www.jewishweddingtraditions.org/before-the-jewish-wedding

          • chrisleduc1

            And yet another one from the Jewish Virtual Library

            http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_02879.html

            “BETROTHAL (Heb. שִׁדּוּכִין, shiddukhin).

            Definition

            In Jewish law shiddukhin is defined as the mutual promise between a man and a woman to contract a marriage at some future time and the formulations of the terms (tena’im, see below) on which it shall take place. In general parlance, as opposed to legal terminology, it is known as erusin (Kid. 63a, Tos.), which is in fact part of the marriage ceremony proper (see *Marriage, Ceremony of). The concept of shiddukhin can entail either a promise by the intending parties themselves or one made by their respective parents or other relatives on their behalf (Kid. 9b; Sh. Ar., eh 50:4–6 and 51). The sages regarded kiddushin (consecration; see *Marriage ) without prior shiddukhin as licentiousness and prescribed that “he who enters into a marriage without shiddukhin is liable to be flogged” (TJ, Kid. 3:10, 64b; TB, Kid. 12b; Maim. Yad, Ishut, 3:22 and Issurei Bi’ah, 21:14; Sh. Ar., EH 26:4). Shiddukhin as such has no immediate effect on the personal status of the parties – it being only a promise to create a different personal status in the future (Resp. Rosh 34:1; Beit Yosef EH 55). Nor does the promise give either party the right to claim specific performance from the other – since a marriage celebrated in pursuance of a judgment requiring the defendant to marry the plaintiff is repugnant to the basic principle that a marriage requires the free will and consent of both the parties thereto.”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            By what authority do you, chrisleduc1, declare that my interpretation is wrong? I’m using the Bible…alone. Sound familiar?

          • chrisleduc1

            God has given His Word in human language so that we can understand what He wants us to know. So we have two options, that I am aware of. A: The author of any statement is the one who determines what a statement means or, B: the reader gets the determine the meaning. IF you go with B: then I get to interpret what you say however I want. If you go with A, then we have to determine a way to determine what the author meant. That again leaves us with two choices; A, it is possible to determine the original meaning or B it is not possible to determine. Based on your statements so far, you have asserted that you interpretation is correct, meaning that you believe interpretation is possible. So the next question is, who’s interpretation is right? Well, simple interpreting a text the same way we do any other document would be a good start. It’s called, among many names, the historical grammatical interpretation. You take the words at face value, in their historical context. And thats exactly the method you’ve already used to interpret my own writings. So you are well aware of the method. So the bottom line is that we can’t both be right. So we could appeal to the universal church of today and see if thats how this verse is interpreted. Next we could examine two thousand years of interpretation by the Church and see if this text has been historically interpreted the way you suggest. Maybe you should examine church history. Because fact is, if you think a text means something that the church has never believed, that should be a HUGE read flag…

          • Neiman

            This is what make me angry with you Roman Catholics, just because Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived does not imply that she and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse after He was born and it is never stated otherwise.

            “Matthew ” Yes, Mary bore children after Jesus, a fact that is stated several places in the Bible. One good example is in Matthew chapter 13, verses 55 and 56, where some of Jesus’ critics cited His “earthly” characteristics as a way of “proving” that He was not the Son of God. Here is the entire passage, so you can see the context.

            “54 And when He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 “Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?” 57 So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”

            This passage clearly reveals that these are real brothers and
            sisters (that is, half-brothers and half-sisters) of Jesus; and children of Mary. Some people try to explain Jesus’ brothers and sisters as being “spiritual” brothers and sisters. However, this is clearly and plainly not correct. Incidentally, James and Judas (Jude) are the authors of the two New Testament Bible books of those names.”

            Just because Jesus gave the care of Mary to John does not imply he violated the Law. Just because a woman’s family should take care of her, does not mean others cannot take on the responsibility.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Except, Saint Mark’s Gospel shows us that this was a different Mary. Saint James the Less is referred to as “James the son of Alphaeus,” in Mk.3:18. Later, in Mk.15:40, it is shown that a different Mary is the mother of James: “There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome […].” James the Less, one of the Twelve, was the son of Alphaeus and Mary, brother of Joseph (Joses), Jude (Thaddeus), and Simon.
            Christ would not have violated the Law of Moses as one of His last acts before He died. Not with all the Jewish authorities there mocking Him. Did you His rebuke of the Pharisees abuse of Corban violating the commandment to honor thy mother and father? Giving His mother to a non-family member proves that Christ had no siblings.

          • Neiman

            Where in Mark? Give us actual scripture.

            This Mary In Matthew is called Jesus mother. These brothers and sisters were referred to as Jesus actual brothers and sisters. In another passage Jesus is encouraged by His brothers to go up to Jerusalem, but He refuses at first and never denied they were His brothers. These were people Jesus hometown making the link between Jesus and His brothers and sisters. It is a stretch to say otherwise. In Mark 16 it does refer to another Mary, but it is not Mary the mother of Jesus. They are not connected and the latter does not rule of the facts of the former.

            No Jesus would not have violated the Law of Moses, just because it says the family should take care of their widowed mother, it does in no way state that others may not take care of her or that a son may not give the care of his mother to a willing friend, in this case a beloved disciple. Saying they are supposed to take care of their mother does not make it a violation of the Law if someone else takes on that responsibility. Giving the care of His mother to John in no way implies that Jesus had no living brothers or sisters.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            “Where in Mark? Give us actual scripture.”
            I did, Neiman. How in the world did you miss it?

            “it does in no way state that others may not take care of her or that a son may not give the care of his mother to a willing friend”

            Careful, Neiman, you are adding to God’s Word. Didn’t you say that was blasphemy?
            If not, okay then. It does not say that Christ prohibited infant baptism, either. Nor, does it say that Mary and Joseph had other children besides Christ. Scripture does not say that there isn’t a Purgatory. I could go on.
            If James was the son of the Blessed Virgin Mary, he would have the responsibility, under the Law, to take care of his mother. The fact that Christ gave the responsibility to John proves that He had no siblings, as the Catholic Church has always taught.

          • Neiman

            I am tired of constantly having to counter your lies and errors.

            Because you did not paste the actual passages from Mark – I did, you did not, I did and I countered them.

            I am neither adding nor deleting from God’s Word, I have shown that just because a son is responsible for caring for his widowed mother, it is not a sin to ask another to take on that responsibility.

            It is entirely a different matter when your false Church makes up traditions and practices that are contrary to scripture.

            Your Church is a false Church, every doctrine you debate is a false doctrine, they cannot be supported by Scripture.

    • Gary

      Ye are of your father the Devil. And the lusts of your father ye will do. You are a child of Hell. And you’ll soon be there.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        God Bless you, Gary.
        I’m still waiting for your answers to my replies, concerning the book of Genesis being a science book. You never came back.
        I hope that you, and your family, have a very blessed New Year.

        • ELAINE MARZANO

          nice ,Nick, you have good control. very proud of you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Thanks, Miss Marzano. Christ commanded us to love our neighbors, right? God Bless!

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            yes he did. and you did that very well. We need a lot more of that. maybe our world would be better for it. for starters drop the miss. Elaine is fine. And Happy New Year to you. God bless you also Nick.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Elaine, we need to offer our virtual cheeks to those who would slap us in cyberspace. Combox discussions are not worth getting angry over.
            May you, and your family, have a blessed New Year!

          • Gary

            Genesis is a history book.

        • Gary

          Genesis is a book of history.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            We agree, Gary. But, it does not tell us HOW God created the universe. Only why and for what purpose. Here’s one of the questions I asked,, before:
            How did Adam name all of the animals on the Sixth Day? People have attempted the math and found that it was impossible. God Bless!

          • Gary

            Where does Genesis say that Adam named all the animals on the sixth day?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Genesis 2:19-20: “So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him.”

            Wow, does this Catholic know more about the Bible than a Bible-only Christian? (Ha-ha! Just kidding!)

          • Gary

            But nowhere in that Scripture does it say Adam named the animals on day six of the creation week. By the way, Bible-only Christians are the only kind there are.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            The animals and Adam were created by God on the Sixth Day (Gn.1:24-26, 31).
            And, Saint Paul told the Thessalonians to “hold fast to the traditions you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). He also told Timothy that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of all truth” (1Tim.3:15). God Bless!

          • Gary

            I try to follow the Bible only. The “traditions” to which YOU refer are catholic traditions, not Biblical ones.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Umm…What about Adam naming the animals?

          • Gary

            But Genesis does not say Adam named them on day six. Remember, you wanted to prove that is impossible so you could slander Genesis.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            But, Gary, I provided the verses. Didn’t you read them?
            Adam was created with the beasts (Gen.1:24-26), on Day Six (Gen. 1:31).
            This is incontrovertible, I’m afraid.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Where’d you go, Gary?

    • ELAINE MARZANO

      OK, my fellow Catholics Roman of course, now that you have completely played with what brain I have left, I am so confused about some things. But no doubts about who is right. And before I forget who I am, I will take a break. You all did very well. I have to give credit to you. I am so proud too have you all on our side. I think you should all go and find your man cave and have a nice cold something to drink. and relax you earned it. Love you all.

  • Vito Zabala Halasan

    God warn us before…1st of ten caommandments….just like to do not vow down any images as likeness in HEAVEN and earth….

  • bowie1

    We must pray to God through Jesus Christ alone. The intercession of the Saints is not a biblically supported practice and this was part the marriage of my brother in law and his wife (and later on the baptism of their son).

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Catholics agree that Jesus is our only Mediator between us and God. However, we see throughout Scripture that we are commanded by God to pray for one another. We also see that those who die in Christ are actually alive with Jesus in Heaven. They are not actually dead but more alive than we are and they remain members of the Body of Christ. Then we see in Revelations 5:8 that they are praying for us (they would have no reason to pray for each other because they are already living a perfected life in heaven) When we ask the Saints to pray to God on our behalf we are acknowledging that Jesus’ death on the Cross defeated death and therefore allowed us to be one in Him, even after we leave this earth. We are acknowledging that those in heaven are still members of Jesus’s Body and that they are the cloud of witnesses cheering us on to the finish line.

      • Gary

        Rev. 5:8 does NOT mean what you say it does. There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone in Heaven now is praying for anyone on earth. That is catholic crap, not Bible doctrine. And, there is NO EVIDENCE in the Bible that anyone on earth should be asking anyone in Heaven for anything, except GOD. If you limit what you believe to what is ACTUALLY in the Bible, you cannot be a catholic.

        • pax2u

          Gary you are taking the scripture out of context, or is that why there are 30 thousand plus denominations, each with their own context,
          I will pray for you

          • Gary

            I am not taking the scripture out of context. Apparently, you have no idea what the context is.

          • pax2u

            of the 30 thousand plus denominations,
            which context is yours?

          • Gary

            Name five thousand of the 30,000 + denominations that YOU claim exist.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I know one of them. The Universal Church of Gary, of which Gary is Pope, archbishop, metropolitan, bishop, and parish priest.

          • Gary

            There is no such church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes there is. We have all seen it in action here and heard the divine fiats issued by its Pope in this very thread.

          • Gary

            You have been as dogmatic as I have. But I have been much closer to the truth.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Much closer to the truth according to who, Pope Gary? According to what, the interpretation handed down by Pope Gary’s Magisterium?

          • Gary

            According to the Bible.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Show me where it says “the Roman Catholic Church is evil and pagan and the Pope is the Antichrist” in the Bible.

          • chrisleduc1

            How do you define “antichrist” ?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Since I am not a Dispensationalist-Rapturist, I do not see the Antichrist as necessarily being one specific, concrete individual that will come and turn everything into a B-grade sci-fi flick like Left Behind.

            Rather, as a Amillennialist and partial-Preterist, I believe that antichrist describes a spiritually rebellious and lawless mentality that can and has been demonstrated in concrete individuals through out history. Nebuchadnezzar II, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, Nero, Caligula, Domitian, Diocletian, Hitler, Stalin, ISIS/IS, and Satan himself have all exemplified this mentality in relation to their treatment of Jews and Christians in history.

          • chrisleduc1

            Ok, so would it be fair then to say that you do not have a definition that is entirely formed by Scripture? I trust you know I am not being antagonistic. My point is simply that antichrist is a Biblical term, and it meant something specific to the author to who wrote it, and to the Author who inspired it. In the original Greek the word had an exact specific meaning that was being conveyed from the author to his audience. Maybe a fair question to ask would have been, “what does Scripture mean when that word is used” Your thoughts?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “Ok, so would it be fair then to say that you do not have a definition that is entirely formed by Scripture? I trust you know I am not being antagonistic.”

            Since I am not a Solo Scripturist, I do not believe that Christians are commanded to use the Bible alone and reject everything else that the Church has produced throughout history. So I rely on Scripture at the foundation, with my opinion being informed and supplemented by history and patristics.

          • chrisleduc1

            Are you able to cite any patristics on what they meant by the term, or what they think John meant by it?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “My point is simply that antichrist is a Biblical term, and it meant something specific to the author to who wrote it, and to the Author who inspired it. In the original Greek the word had an exact specific meaning that was being conveyed from the author to his audience. “

            Right—I agree that St. John was most likely referring to someone within his own historical context. That was probably Nero or Domitian. However, since I am not a full Preterist, which is an unorthodox eschatological position, there is a future element to St. John’s vision and prophecy. There have been and will be other antichrists that later generations of believers. will encounter in their own historical contexts.

          • chrisleduc1

            So your exegesis of 1 John honestly leads you to believe that John is referring to a Roman Emperor?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            The question becomes loaded when you include the word “honestly” in it. What makes you think that I am not being honest?

          • chrisleduc1

            What I mean is have you truly sat down and exegeted the text to determine what the Spirit and John meant when the text was written. As well informed as you seem to be, its hard for me to believe that after sitting over this text, you think John was referring to Nero, Domitian or any other Emperor.

            “Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they were not reallyof us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”

            I just don’t understand how you get that from the text.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why is that? The figure of the beast could be one of those emperors too. They are still antichrist regardless.

          • chrisleduc1

            Why is that? Because John describes them (antichrists) with certain characteristics.

            Are you saying you think John, in that text in 1 John is referring to a beast? Remember we are not talking about the book of Revelation here. We are talking 1 John.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Despite your claims of not wanting to be antagonistic, I am beginning to wonder where you are going with this line of questioning. Can you state what assembly of believers you attend and the eschatological interpretation that you hold? Thanks.

          • chrisleduc1

            “Despite your claims of not wanting to be antagonistic, I am beginning to wonder where you are going with this line of questioning. ”

            Not sure why you feel that trying to understand exactly what you believe and why, with precise language is antagonistic, but OK. My goal is literally to understand, with as much certainty and as little ambiguity as possible, what you believe and why.

            “Can you state what assembly of believers you attend and the eschatological interpretation that you hold?”

            I am an Evangelical and a Chiliast. I believe that a study of God’s Word and the earliest patristics reveals that the earliest church held to evangelical doctrines, that it is clear from early patristics that they did NOT use the term “tradition” to refer to unwritten authoritative doctrine, nor did they think that the Apostles used that term to refer to authoratative doctrine, and that they were chiliasts – a fine example being John own disciple Polycarp, which is as close to the source as you can get. Hope that helps.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “Not sure why you feel that trying to understand exactly what you believe and why, with precise language is antagonistic, but OK. My goal is literally to understand, with as much certainty and as little ambiguity as possible, what you believe and why.”

            Okay, but ultimately, I do not think that eschatology is a very precise path of inquiry. There is a reason that limits were placed on what can be known and that it is recommended that Christians leave it up to God and hope for the resurrection of the saints.

            Who do you think all the antichrists that have appeared and the antichrist that is coming is in 1 John 2? Who is the beast? Who is the false prophet? How can one obtain pinpoint accuracy in determining such things, if that is not forbidden by God in the first place?

          • chrisleduc1

            My inquiry was about your understand of John use of the word. John was not talking about eschatology and that word is never used elsewhere. So it first has to be defined for its only usage in the Bible. I had no intent to debate eschatology…

            Regrind the rest of your questions, would you clarify them for me?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why must you quibble over my use of the term “eschatology?” It simply defines a subdiscipline of theology that examines the eschaton.

          • chrisleduc1

            I simply was asking for your definition, and for what you think John mean in 1 John as its hard to have a discussion if were are using the same terms but have different definitions and don’t know it. We’ll just talk past each other. 1John is not about eschatology. Thats why I say that. 1 John is the only usage of that word, so if we are going to use it, we should use it the way he did. Just my .02

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, I have determined that much about what you think it refers to. However, you still have not revealed who it actually is! Is St. John giving a general warning about false teachers, persecutors, etc., or is he using the term to refer to someone specific?

          • chrisleduc1

            John says that many antichrists have gone out from the Apostle, demonstrating themselves not be of God. Thats the only usage of the terms. He also says that you have heard than “an” antichrist is to come, note the definite article. I believe it will be a man who literally fulfills Daniel and does what Jesus said. Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation in the holy place, spoken of by Daniel, let those who are on the in Judea on the rooftops flee to the mountains. Keep in mind that Jesus had a word to use for “hear” if he had intended to mean hearing about it. Instead, He used the word for seeing with the eyes. I think based on the fact that Israel exists as a nation today, and they have the plans to build a temple, and the have a red-heifer, and they have already made all the priestly garments, and all the gold utensils, I believe that it will happen as literally as IS 7:14 happened. A man will declare himself to be God and erect an idol in the Holy of Holies. It will be broadcast on TV and the internet and the world will watch. Then those who are in Judea had better flee.
            Hope that helps…

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “Regrind the rest of your questions, would you clarify them for me?”

            Good grief, it is clear that I am made out to be an eschatological dummy. I want to know who YOU think all of these figures are since I apparently have no clue!

          • chrisleduc1

            I don’t think we will know what most of those figures are until the time they are present, or slightly afterwards.

            Regarding the term “antichrist” the work lightly means a pseudo-christ or a replacement for Christ, or a false Christ. This is why the reformers called the Pope the antichrist, because he declared himself to be the very vicar of Christ and head of the church. That is , by Biblical definition, an antichrist. This view of the RCC was not held for over 1000 years, so its pretty extraordinary.

          • chrisleduc1

            Also regarding the current state of the RCC and the claims of the Pope, I find Pope Gregory the First’s statement to John of Constantinople to be very informative. In historical context, John was declaring himself to be the head of the church, chief bishop, however you want to phrase it. However Gregory had some very interesting things to say in response. ”

            For what are all your brethren, the bishops of the universal Church, but stars of heaven, whose life and discourse shine together amid the sins and errors of men, as if amid the shades of night? And when you desire to put yourself above them by this proud title, and to tread down their name in comparison with yours, what else do you say but I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of heaven? Are not all the bishops together clouds, who both rain in the words of preaching, and glitter in the light of good works? And when your Fraternity despises them, and you would fain press them down under yourself, what else say you but what is said by the ancient foe, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds? All these things when I behold with tears, and tremble at the hidden judgments of God, my fearsare increased, and my heart cannot contain its groans, for that this most holy man the lord John, of so great abstinence and humility, has, through the seduction of familiar tongues, broken out into such a pitch of pride as to attempt, in his coveting of that wrongful name, to be like him who, while proudly wishing to be like God, lost even the grace of the likeness granted him, and because he sought false glory, thereby forfeited true blessedness. Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,— what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the Lord’s Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal. Now let your Holiness acknowledge to what extent you swell within yourself in desiring to be called by that name by which no one presumed to be called who was truly holy.

          • chrisleduc1

            It goes on and on, its a fascinating read!

            http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360205018.htm

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am losing track of your replies because you have replied to yourself rather than to me.

            Hopefully I can piece them all together so that I do not misrepresent you or miss anything you have said.

          • chrisleduc1

            Sorry. My replies to myself are just longer portions of my argument so as not to be in one single post. I trust you, I know you won’t intentionally misrepresent me. Thats why I chose to interact with you.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I appreciate it. Really, I do. It is just very difficult in this venue to deduce what Protestants are actually interested in a fruitful discussion about history and theology.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “In historical context, John was declaring himself to be the head of the church, chief bishop, however you want to phrase it. “

            Do you mean that Pope Gregory was rebuking the Byzantine patriarch John for not affirming his attempt at establishing Rome’s universal jurisdiction?

            Although Pope Gregory the Great is considered a saint in Eastern Orthodoxy, I definitely sympathize with Patriarch John Scholastikos in his rebuke of the Archbishop of Rome’s attempt at consolidating his authority on a universal scale.

            In terms of ecclesiology I subscribe to the conciliar theory that includes equality among the bishops of the five ancient episcopal sees.

          • chrisleduc1

            No you’re missing it. John had tried to establish himself as the head. Gregory rebuked him stating that there is only one Head (Christ) and that all the Bishops are equals. He said that anyone who exalts himself to singular leader of the Church is the precursor to the antichrist. Seriously, take the time and read through it. It’s fascinating!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Do you really think that Gregory is not referring to the archbishop of Rome with all of the imagery of Christ as head and the Apostles as followers?

          • chrisleduc1

            We have to interpret the clear statements first and then use them to interpret the less clear.

            He definitely says the Christ is the universal Head. No ifs ands or buts.

            Then, he actually completely refutes the supremacy of Peter. Not even Peter Himself had the audacity to claim himself The head!!

            “Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,— what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the Lord’s Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of th em has wished himself to be called universal.”

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, but it is not until the sixth century that one really starts to see the archbishops of Rome become too big for their britches and realistically carry out their aspirations toward universal jurisdiction.

            Gregory is taking the very basic imagery of leadership from the Bible and combining it with the ideas about episcopal authority from St. Ignatius, Clement of Rome, the pre-Montanism Tertullian, and Pope Gelasius in order to downplay the equality of the Patriarch of Constantinople, primarily, and the other patriarchates in general.

          • chrisleduc1

            Again, Ive enjoyed the dialog. I appreciate being able to have a conversation with someone who can dispassionately look at the historical realities. It really is fascinating to see the development of the RCC in its historical context and then compare what we see today and try not to laugh at the claims that the current dogmas of the RCC have always been and always been agreed upon. Blessings.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Thanks! It has been fund discussing things with you, too.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am pretty sure that, in the midst of all the mutual rebuking, Gregory is doing so because he disagreed with the Eutychian schism and saw it as an opportunity to break away from Byzantine influence and consolidate his espiscopal jurisdiction. He is using John Scholastikos as his punching bag.

          • chrisleduc1

            Sure, but he is still clearly saying that they are all equals. Christ is Head.

          • chrisleduc1

            “Although Pope Gregory the Great is considered a saint in Eastern Orthodoxy, I definitely sympathize with Patriarch John Scholastikos in his rebuke of the Archbishop of Rome’s attempt at consolidating his authority on a universal scale.”

            But even the papal office today is a FAR cry from what Gregory was doing. There is literally a 1000 years of corruption and new doctrines by the time of the reformation. Even Calvin loved Gregory!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Calvin did love Gregory because it helped justify the show he was running in Geneva!

          • chrisleduc1

            “In terms of ecclesiology I subscribe to the conciliar theory that includes equality among the bishops of the five ancient episcopal sees.”

            I would agree that all Bishops had equal authority. The concept of a single pope is absolutely foreign to both Scripture and the early church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I think from this section of the letter and after, Pope Gregory lets John know who he thinks is in charge and why:

            “Certainly Peter, the first of the apostles, himself a member of the holy and universal Church, Paul, Andrew, John,— what were they but heads of particular communities? And yet all were members under one Head. And (to bind all together in a short girth of speech) the saints before the law, the saints under the law, the saints under grace, all these making up the Lord’s Body, were constituted as members of the Church, and not one of them has wished himself to be called universal. Now let your Holiness acknowledge to what extent you swell within yourself in desiring to be called by that name by which no one presumed to be called who was truly holy.”

          • chrisleduc1

            If you read the letter in its entirety, you see that Gregory means Jesus is Head, and they are all equals. He even states it explicitly:

            “If then he shunned the subjecting of the members of Christ partially to certain heads, as if beside Christ, though this were to the apostles themselves, what will you say to Christ, who is the Head of the universal Church, in the scrutiny of the last judgment, having attempted to put all his members under yourself by the appellation of Universal?”

            Pretty clear, Christ is Head of the universal Church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, I agree that Christ is the head of the universal Church. So would the Byzantines and the other patriarchs. However, I think Gregory is employing this imagery rhetorically to justify what he was doing in Italy by getting into bed with the Lombards and rejecting Emperor Maurice’s authority. That is the key historical context here.

          • chrisleduc1

            “Well, I agree that Christ is the head of the universal Church. So would the Byzantines and the other patriarchs. ”

            Problem is, RCC does not teach this. You can say misunderstand the defintion of vicar, but reading the canons makes it clear that the RCC has long since departed from the faith and added works and usurped Christ. They’ve even deified Mary by giving her attributes that only belong to God.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, that is how the Reformers interpreted it, except the Magisterial Reformers preferred to call the office itself “antichrist.” However, I do not see why it has to be the pope considering that the pope was never meant to replace Christ or act as a Christ because the original Christ was not good enough or was false. That is more the product of Radical Reformation rhetoric than anything having to do with history.

          • chrisleduc1

            “However, I do not see why it has to be the pope considering that the pope was never meant to replace Christ or act as a Christ because the original Christ was not good enough or was false.”

            First, Im not sure by what you mean by “pope was never meant” as the very concept of a pope is completely absent from both the Bible and the early church. Second, the fact of the matter is that pope today calls himself, officially, both the vicar of Christ Himself, and the head of the Church. This is probably the main point of the reformation. That the pope was the head of the Church was a radical new doctrine, that contradicted the Bible. Especially in light of the fact that at one time in recent history (at the time of the Reformation) there were actually THREE officially elected popes. Its was an amazing, sickening mess…

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It depends on who one considers the pope to be and for what reasons. In theory I agree that there is no concept of Pope in the Bible and that it is an innovation from late antiquity due to the political and financial constraints that the archbishops of Rome found themselves in after the emperor Justinian’s reconquests fell apart in Italy.

            Nevertheless, this is hardly ever the reason why Protestants paint the pope as evil, pagan, unbiblical, so on and so forth. Rather, they do this because of a deep-seated anti-Catholic bigotry that they chose to accept or which they absorbed and internalized by listening uncritically to preachers peddling that kind of hate. It is not based upon any research or knowledge into church history or an honest assessment of the opinions of the church fathers.

            In the end, these Protestants consider the five patriarchs and even the Byzantine Church itself to be nothing better than Roman Catholicism and equally “apostate”…that is IF they even are aware of the existence of the Byzantine Church.

          • chrisleduc1

            Well, the pope as he stands today, in all the doctrines of the current RCC is a far cry from the earyl church and is in fact evil. He has called himself the head of the church. Game over. Period. Per Gregory, he has usurped Christ. He teaches against salvation by grace alone through faith alone and anathematizes those such as myself who hold do that. The five patriarchs did not believe anything like what he currently teaches. He is totally apostate.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What do you mean by “per Gregory?” It seemed like you were agreeing with Pope Gregory a minute ago.

          • chrisleduc1

            I completely agree with Gregory that anyone who takes the role of supreme authority has taken the place of Christ and is a precursor to the antichrist.

          • chrisleduc1

            I gotta run. Ive enjoyed the dialog. In paring, I hope you are trusting 100% in Christ alone. Entirely in His righteousness. Nothing of your own. No cooperation. I hope that you have been born again, to where Jesus gave you a new heart, and that you can actually recall when that happened. You were dead but now alive. I hope that you believe that Jesus died for 100% of all your past present and future sins and that every drop of righteousness you have is His and His alone and that if on the day of judgment you were asked for a reason to enter heaven you would know and say that it is 100% Christ and 100% Christ alone and never point to a single work of your own. IF you have anything else you’d like ask me about or converse about, I will see it a bit later. Til next time…

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The Pope does not replace Christ. I believe you are confused about what the term ‘Vicar of Christ’ means. The Pope is simply caring for Jesus’s Church, as he was appointed to do by Jesus when Jesus said to the first Pope “Feed my sheep…” Because the office of the Pope was instituted by Jesus to the first Pope, St. Peter, and the Pope always declares Jesus as the Messiah, it is impossible for the Pope to be the anti-Christ.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “I am an Evangelical and a Chiliast. I believe that a study of God’s Word and the earliest patristics reveals that the earliest church held to evangelical doctrines…”

            It is good to know this. Do you consider yourself a Reformed Calvinist or are you more Arminian? What do you man by “evangelical doctrines?”

          • chrisleduc1

            Well, not to be a smart youknowwhat, but I can’t be both a chiaist and reformed calvinist. I do believe the 5 points of calvinism are are good summary of what the Scriptures overwhelming teach, and that the earliest church believed them as well.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Really? I am pretty sure that I have come across some Reformed Baptists who hold something close to chiliasm.

          • chrisleduc1

            “reformed baptist” and “roman catholic” are oxymorons, like “jumbo shrimp” as they are mutually exclusive terms. Only be re-defining “reformed” can that work.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That would seem to be the opinion of a more Arminian evangelical. How must reformed be redefined?

          • chrisleduc1

            Chiliasm was not a doctrine of the reformers… So,…

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Good Job my friend. this was a very enlightening day for me. But my grandkids finally made it. And it will be morning before I know it. hope tp see you around.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Thanks! Have fun with your grandkids. ☺

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OH sure easy for you to say. I forgot how crazy little 2 year old girls can get .
            she is so strong and really full of it. She is always picking on her older brother. he is 4. she decided she wanted to play dress up. So I brought her all my jewelry mainly because she told me she wanted a bracelet . She looked beautiful when I finished putting 14 necklaces and all the bracelets I had .Then she pointed to her fingers she wanted my rings all 9 of them on one little bitty finger. I sent her into the kitchen to show daddy , mommy and Auntie . Of course they took pictures. every body was happy except I have no idea how in h— I am going to untangle the jewelry . oh well she was good for about 2 hrs. Boy I think she has her grams personality. I am not sure if that is good or bad. Ok I got to go and pick up my toys.

          • pax2u

            I have to say that I LOVE your posts, they are kind, and witty and make me smile
            Peace to you

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Thank you so much. you are very encouraging . I hate gloom and doom. If I could bring a smile to any ones face I am happy. I realize these are trying times for everyone. but I think we have to lighten up just a tiny bit. Take a breather and be happy just a little bit. It helps. Thank you again PAX2u. eventually we will be ok again.

          • pax2u

            God loves all of us, even those who hate us and our faith , they are willing to lie but I sometimes think that they are just insecure and need to attack others to justify their own concept of God, we must pray for them

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            It is ok. You can do what you feel more comfortable doing. NO one here is going to tell you different. If you think your prayers might be the answer than do it. But don’t waste all your prayers n them. Remember we need some too. Ok got to go . love you.

          • pax2u

            God Bless you, you are a very good person
            I am told that we must forgive those who hate our faith, who lie about our faith, and hate us for our faith
            They may reject my prayers to Jesus Christ, but I must forgive them, pity them and pray for them just the same
            Peace and blessings to you

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “…that it is clear from early patristics that they did NOT use the term “tradition” to refer to unwritten authoritative doctrine, nor did they think that the Apostles used that term to refer to authoratative doctrine…”

            I don’t understand what the basis is for determining that this is what was meant by “tradition” or that the Apostles had some kind of aversion towards unwritten doctrine. It would seem to me that they would have declared it specifically NOT authoritative if they were that aversed to it.

          • chrisleduc1

            Well first, for God’s people corporately, His Word was always written. The Torah even explicitly states that Moses wrote down EVERYTHING God commanded. This was the only way to guarantee God’s Word was preserved. Even at Jesus time, the ONLY time he used the word tradition, was to condemn what was then unwritten doctrine, which was taught as being authoritative but really was not and it contradicted what was written. Every time was Jesus was questioned on matters of doctrine, He went to the written word. Always.

          • chrisleduc1

            Regarding the second half of your statement, the Biblical texts do not state that unwritten tradition is either doctrine or authoritative. A reading of the early patristics says the same thing. To say that it is requires proof. Nobody can just assert that what the RCC today means by traditoin is what the early church meant, or even the Apostles.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “…and that they were chiliasts – a fine example being John own disciple Polycarp, which is as close to the source as you can get. Hope that helps.”

            That is a good point and one that I do not entirely disagree with. There was lots of space left for interpretation and consolidation of the Church’s position on a number of things after the early fathers’ initial forays.

            Nevertheless, I do not think that, when taken in an expanded historical context, without artificial limitations to early fathers such as Polycarp or Ignatius, chiliasm or dispensationalism was mandated as THE Christian eschatology, and that the allegorical method used by Clement or later Augustine and the conclusions they came to were wrong in an of themselves.

          • chrisleduc1

            Also, how to you get a beast out of revelation from the Greek word ἀντίχριστος antichristos ?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, where are you going with this? It sounds like you are trying to rope me into making contradictions because I do not accept the literalism of Dispensationalist-Rapturism. So beasts don’t have the spirit of antichrist and are not antichrist?

          • chrisleduc1

            Again, I am wondering what you think John and the Holy Spirit meant by that term, in its only usage in the entire Bible. Nothing more and nothing less. Simply what did John mean by that term to his audience in 1 John. Another way of saying it would be, what do you think the audience of John letter though when they read 1John 2:18-19 ?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I told you with reservations who I think it was. Now please, stop the condescension and tell me what I am missing and you you think it is. That seems to be where this is leading.

          • chrisleduc1

            I don’t want to misrepresent you so thats why I keep clarifying what you are saying. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when you sat down and exegeted 1 John 2:18-19, the conclusion that you came to based upon the definition of the word ἀντίχριστος antichristos and the context of John saying that many antichrists had gone out from him, is that John was referring to a beast or a Emperor? And that his recipients of the letter would have understood that?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is not the sense I am getting any longer. It is why I asked you to say what assembly you join and the eschatology you accept.

          • Michael Dzieminski

            The Bible says he will be a PERSON, who will appear to have a mortal head wound and come back to life , he will cause great havoc on the earth.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yeah, what about it?

          • Michael Dzieminski

            Well I can see we will just be going round and round my friend. Anyway it was nice talking to yall.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, explain what you mean. How does a reference to head wounds and purple robes indicate a pope?

          • Gary

            There is no roman catholic church or pope mentioned in the Bible. That is one of the reasons they are fake. But the Bible does condemn mixing the traditions and philosophies of this world with the truth. “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Col. 8:8

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, the reason why you believe that their absence from the Bible necessitates that they are fake is because you hold to a literalist interpretation of the text and an unacknowledged method of Solo Scriptura.

          • Gary

            If you don’t take the Bible literally, then it can mean a lot of different things. That is one of the errors of catholics and other fake Christians.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            LOL! Thanks for outing yourself as a Solo Scripturist instead of a Sola Scripturist. Everyone at least does not have to reply to you under that pretension any longer.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            By the way, why do fundamentalists suddenly chuck the literalist methodology out the window when it comes to interpreting Jesus’s words about his body and blood and him being the the way and Christians lamps?

          • pax2u

            Gary has that “special” Bible, that only he can read, and everyone else is condemned to hell, according to the “special” Bible of just Gary

          • Michael Dzieminski

            Read Rev. 17 verses 1 thru 9. And you are right you can’t show the pope to be antichrist. Because he or another pope will be the false prophet.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I don’t see how that passage necessitates a pope being the false prophet.

          • Michael Dzieminski

            “Study to show thyself approved” Rome is a city on 7 hills, Priests in the catholic church wear scarlet. The church in rome is rich in gold and pearls, she drinks from a golden cup held high at every mass which has the blood of the saints which she has made war with and murdered believers in Christ. (See Spanish Inquisition).Thru out the centuries. One need only read a newspaper to see how the pope is trying to get all world leaders and “religions” together under the banner of rome. Hence her fornication with the kings of the earth.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, I don’t think any of those things necessitates these figures being the Pope. Rather, it is presupposed anti-Catholic sentiments which require certain people to connect the dots in such a way that the figures become the Pope and the Catholic Church.

          • Michael Dzieminski

            Actually magister no one is trying to”connect the dots” as you say. If you go to the Bible and pray to ask God to open your eyes to the truth, he will show you. But beware because it is going to hurt to see how you are being deceived by satan. I say this as someone who was under the church of rome.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is code for “you do not disagree with me but with God/Jesus/Bible because you disagree with me.” It is usually justified with the rejoinder that anyone who does not agree with someone does not have eyes to see or ears to hear.

          • pax2u

            “We are obliged to
            yield many things to the Papists–that with them is the Word of God, which we
            received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.”-
            Martin Luther

          • Gary

            I am not a follower of Luther.

          • pax2u

            I pray that some day you may be a follower of my Personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
            until that day , I forgive you and I will continue to pray for your eternal soul

          • Gary

            I am now a follower of Jesus Christ. But you are not. You are a catholic, not a Christian.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred of Christians, and I will continue to pray for your eternal soul

          • Gary

            I don’t hate Christians. And my eternal soul is fine.

          • James Grimes

            He continues to say that he will forgive people, then he makes an insulting comment. Is this clown for real?
            Anyhow, you have made many valid points. Your detractors are delusional.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred and I will pray for you and ask you to pray for me also

          • Guess what

            Everyone here seems to be missing the point, although gary is closer on track than most. Whenever their is a discussion about religion, why does denomination always come up? I go to a pentecostal church, but when asked what denomination i am, i tell that person im not a denomination. Im a follower of christ. My wife is catholic and as stated in a post i read earlier on here. She is actually more worried about the catholic traditions, than actually reading and following what the scripture says. Its a shame. And its not just catholic. If i see a denomination that blatantly does something that the bible states is not correct (gay mariage) I can only pray those in the congregation finds the thruth before its to late. The bible tells us apostasy and false prophets will flourishes toward the end times. People are just to blind to see.

          • pax2u

            since you have attended many Catholic Masses, please tell us all where EXACTLY is Mary idolized?

          • Guess what

            The Hebrew word translated “graven image”
            means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of
            stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a
            relief carving in a wall or pole.

            The second commandment, recorded in Exodus 20:4–5,
            reads, “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of
            what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under
            the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them.” Likely, this
            refers back to the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods
            before Me,” and specifically forbids the creation of idols. But it is
            equally dangerous to create an image of God Himself. God has given us
            reminders enough of His power and glory (Romans 1:20) without man attempting to use created things to represent the Creator.

            Now im not saying Catholics worship mary. But bible specificly states You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of
            what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under
            the earth.

            So why should the lord allow an exception to this for Catholics? As ive said, ive seen many kneel at a mary staue and pray. If those truely are praying to our one and only God, why do it thru and idol. Does not take a rocket scientest to figure this out that its against his commandment.

            You can dodge or reword or make excuses. The bible is 100% plain and clear on this.

          • pax2u

            the Cross is an image, is it a pagan graven image?
            so is mount Rushmore a pagan graven Image?
            you are correct that Catholic’s do not worship Mary, even though many anti Catholic’s spread that lie, but many anti Catholics will dodge, reword, or make an excuse to confuse, to honor with to worship
            I realize that the Muslims are iconoclasts, is Michaelangelo’s David a pagan image? I realize that the Muslim iconoclasts destroy all statues, should the statue David be destroyed as a pagan idol?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Where does the Bible say that the Bible is the sole authority on matters of Christian faith?

            It appears that you do not understand the Mass. Everything about the Mass is focused on Jesus. This was actually a difficult concept for me in becoming a Catholic from a Pentecostal background because I was so used to it all being about me. It was all about whether or not I got something from the worship or the sermon. It was all about me having a spiritual experience. It was all about the worship team being very professional and using dynamic sound systems and exciting songs. There was a lot of ‘me’ in my Pentecostal experience. When I began studying Catholicism I realized that it’s not about me. It’s truly all about Jesus. My experience at Church should be focused on Jesus. I wanted to experience Jesus in a deeper, more personal way than I ever have before and that is through the Holy Eucharist. Have you ever wondered why people in your church go up to the alter to receive Jesus? The origin of that is found in the Catholic Church where we go up to the alter at every Mass and actually receive Jesus; Body, Blood and Divinity.

          • Guess what

            Thats great friend, again if the catholic church has achieved you getting closer to God thats awesome. If you are saved thru grace by faith (not by works as catholics believe) since works are an after result of being saved and filled with the spirit of salvation

            There are many denominations and many will go to heaven from those denominations. And many more want. Again why does it have to go back to religion? Read and follow the bible thats the only true way to the maker. No religion will get us there. Are we all not brothers and sisters in christ? catholics, protestants, we both believe in the second coming of christ.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I appreciate your charitable discussion. Yes, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. However, I also feel a responsibility to clear up a lot of the misunderstandings and misconceptions about the Catholic Church.

            Catholics believe that we are saved by grace alone, through faith with an outward evidence in our works.

            Religion is simply our belief in God and the way we practice that belief, so religion is necessary to our relationship with God. I know that in a lot of Protestant circles, religion has become a four letter word, but it seems that has more to do to with a misunderstanding of God’s intention in establishing religion. Just as Jesus said, He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Matthew 5:17.

            Also, I wanted to address your point that “If its not in the bible im not believing or following it” and point out that that belief is not in the Bible.

          • KenS

            I used to go to a pentecostal church as well, until I fully understood how in Corinthians, Paul plainly shows us that speaking in tongues was to end and did end when the Judgement of Israel was complete with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel of its coming judgement;therefore once the judgement came, there was no longer a need for the sign. Also, tongues were known human languages, not ecstastic babbling that the Pentecostals use today. So to sit here and tell us that if its not in the bible you are not believing it or following it is not entirely true if you are following the Pentecostal belief that tongues are still be spoken today.

          • pax2u

            as Gary condemns the Baptist Billy Graham for preaching the love and mercy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and as Gary supports the hatred of the Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church
            I see that you and I are on different tracks

          • James Grimes

            Gary, isn’t amazing how ignorance can prevail among the few who chose to argue with you? I think their combined IQ is 90. On the other hand, you have Christian brothers who actually do know what Scripture says.I

          • Gary

            Thanks for the support. You have mine as well.

          • James Grimes

            No problem. We are fighting a battle against the witless here, the uninformed, the delusional. The sad thing is that they are doing Satan’s bidding. Notice the unintelligible rebuttals we are getting. My patience and tolerance are wearing out here. My course is to disregard their incoherent rants. I have much better things to do. Have a blessed day.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Patience and tolerance? You have not even been participating in the discussion on this article. Besides, if you are referring to me, it is strange that you upvoted me and gave me a nice compliment the other day.

          • Spoob

            No one requested the opinion of the grand wizard of the KKK.

          • James Grimes

            You just proved my point, “how ignorance can prevail among the few who chose to argue with you? I think their combined IQ is 90.” with this dumb comment. Nice going!

          • Spoob

            You keep condemning yourself with your asinine, hateful comments. Was your favorite hymn growing up “They Will Know We Are Christians By Our Hate”?

          • James Grimes

            I did not condemn you. Your own words did.

          • Spoob

            Why, because I don’t think Catholics and homosexuals should be killed and you do?

          • James Grimes

            I don’t know why. You make statements on this site that constantly condemn the evil in you. Please, don’t burden me with your issues. You own them. Good bye.

          • Spoob

            As long as there are fundamentalists spreading lies and hate on websites like this I will muster the strength to fight you and everything you stand for.

          • James Grimes

            Is this your last comment? I hope so. You have bored me too long with your delusional rants.

          • Spoob

            That will be up to you. Do you intend to continue to bully Catholics and homosexuals? Don’t write crap and I won’t feel the need to respond to it.

          • The Last Trump

            Well, at least you’re not playing God too. That’s a step up from the Roman Catholic Church isn’t it? 😉

          • pax2u

            should I give you the study from the Baptist Seminary, oh wait, you are a Bapist and do not believe what Baptist’s believe,

          • Gary

            The point is, you cannot prove there are as many denominations as you claim there are.

          • pax2u

            According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world

          • pax2u

            Number of Christian Denominations:

            According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world. This statistic takes into consideration cultural distinctions of denominations in different countries, so there is overlapping of many denominations.
            Center for the Study of Global Christianity (2011)

            http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm

          • DD

            Religion and its ‘41,000 denominations’ aren’t important. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is all that matters. Churches are meant to be the body of Christ and should teach the whole truth of God’s Word: The Gospel of repentance through belief in Jesus, His death on the cross for the sins of mankind, and His resurrection. Churches should nourish, help and support its flock as they grow in their relationship with Jesus Christ.
            Ephesians 2:19-22
            So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
            1 Corinthians 3:9
            For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.
            Most importantly the church should do/support what Jesus told the disciples: Matthew 28:19
            Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…

            Rituals and beliefs outside of the Word of God are man-made doctrines that define religion as opposed to being a Christ-follower as defined by Jesus in Matthew 16:24:
            24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.”

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We agree with all of the verses that you listed and do our best to live by them.

            I’m wondering if you believe that the Bible alone is the sole authority? This is a belief that exists outside of the Bible. I’m wondering how it is possible to believe in ‘Bible alone’ if ‘Bible alone’ is not in the Bible? Wouldn’t you then believe in something that is not in the Bible and therefore not strictly adhering to ‘Bible alone?’

            Also do you take part in communion and believe that it is a mere symbol? This is a belief and ritual that is outside of the Bible. The Bible, specifically Jesus, is very clear that Holy Communion is the actual Body and Blood of Jesus and not meant to be viewed as a mere symbol. (John 6)

            Also ‘personal relationship with Jesus Christ’ is not found in the Bible. Of course, we are able, through the Grace of God, to be in relationship with Him, but the idea that it is a ‘personal relationship’ is not found in the Bible and is therefore a belief that exists outside the Bible. Rather than being a personal relationship, we are a family, all members of one Body, the Body of our Lord Jesus. It’s not just ‘me and Jesus’ because we are meant to be together with other believers (just as your later points supported).

            Additionally, Catholics believe that we should not take away from the Bible, such as removing books of the Bible. I’m wondering why it is okay, in your mind, to do so? Why is it okay to read a Bible that only has 66 of the original 73 books of the Christian Bible?

          • KenS

            Because there were not 73 original books of the the bible, there were 66 and 7 agnostic books that were proven to be fakes trying to get their agnostic views included in the bible. If you were to look at the book of isaiah as an example, God likes numerals and Isaiah with its 66 chapters and how it covers a little bit of every biblical doctrine of the bible, it shows the hand of God on making sure that the 66 books that he wanted and inspired were the only books in HIS WORD.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            There were 73 books in the original Christian Bible. By whose authority were people able to remove books. By whose authority were they able to declare them false.

          • KenS

            You need to look closer at history, the books were never a part of the bible, they were letters/gospels that the agnostics were trying to have made a part of the bible but were rejected by the early church leaders because they contradicted known scripture. It was the early church that did not include these books for that very reason.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            What history are you referring to? The early Church included these books. Jesus quoted from them. If you read them you will see that they are not agnostic in nature. In fact, they were thrown out of the Jewish Scripture (which has not yet closed) because they supported Jesus being the Messiah. The Protestants threw out these books during the Protestant Reformation.

          • pax2u

            so Gary, since you are a Baptist
            and the Study is from a Baptist Seminary
            is it a lie? or does it prove the point since you disagree with other Baptists?
            no wonder that there are 40 thousand plus denominations, as per a Baptist Seminary, or have you now started a new denomination, 40 thousand plus one

          • Gary

            All right. I will concede the point. I don’t have time to argue about that.

          • pax2u

            you are forgiven your hatred of Christians
            I will continue to pray for your eternal soul

          • Gary

            Work your beads. Which catholic “saint”, who is actually in Hell are you praying to?

          • pax2u

            you anger is consuming your soul
            I will continue to prat for eternal soul

          • Gary

            Which catholic “saint”, who is now in Hell, will you pray to?

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred
            I will pray for you and ask God to forgive you also

          • pax2u

            so if the study is from a Baptist group it is in error?

            According to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations and organizations in the world

          • Oboehner

            you have no Christian faith, it is sad you are a mary-worshiper.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred of Christians

          • Oboehner

            False witness, I never said I hated anyone.

          • pax2u

            do not lie about the beliefs of Christians, that is hatred
            do you have a denomination?

          • Oboehner

            “do not lie about the beliefs of Christians, that is hatred” Then don’t do it.

            Show me denomination in scripture and I will go get one.

          • pax2u

            Matt 16
            17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…
            it is best that you have no church

          • Oboehner

            Nope, nothing about denomination there, like I said: I see Jesus building his church on the fact that he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but nothing about denominations.

          • pax2u

            I am thankful that you are alone with out a denomination or Christian fellowship
            but I am not surprised

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred of Christians

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Hi Gary, it’s good to get the opportunity to chat with you again. I hope that you are having a wonderful New Year’s Day.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Gary: “If you limit what you believe to what is ACTUALLY in the Bible, you cannot be a catholic.”

          Where does it say to do that? You are simply taking a Radical Reformation presupposition about Scripture and slapping the label of “bible doctrine” on it. This presupposition even ignores the Reformed principle of Sola Scriptura and adopts SOLO Scriptura instead.

          • Gary

            The Bible alone is the source of doctrine for Christians. If it isn’t found in the Bible, it is just someone’s opinion.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Where does it say that in the Bible?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also, do you adhere to the original Bible or the modified version that had books removed?

          • Oboehner

            Or passages removed like the graven images commandment in the catholic bible.

          • Frank

            I used to have one of those bibles about 20 years back. Scary stuff seeing that they literally removed part of the 10 commandments.

          • Oboehner

            The local RC churches around here have it engraved in stone out front, omitting one commandment and splitting another in two.

          • Frank

            right on their official website they have a pope claiming to be God Almighty. If you do a google search for the quote it’s the first link to appear and is only a few paragraphs down.

          • Oboehner

            The RCC makes many claims that are in direct contradiction to the Word of God, the are the spirit of Anti-Christ.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We’ve removed nothing from the Bible. Please explain how it is okay for Protestants to remove books from the Bible?

          • Oboehner

            Please explain how it is okay for catholics to add books to the Bible? Then tell me what happened to the graven image commandment, I have a “New Jerusalem” catholic bible and it is missing.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Okay – perhaps this will help clear up your confusion. This link is very brief and concise. It clearly shows that our first commandment is: I. I am the Lord your God: you shall not have strange gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image.

            Protestants say the same commandment twice, that we should not worship anyone but God in commandments 1 and 3. Then they lump the coveting of a wife with the coveting of property. As a woman, I do not appreciate being seen as “property” as the Protestants view it in their commandments.

            Okay, now that I have sufficiently answered your query, will you please respond to mine?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also, Catholics added all of the books to the Bible because they wrote and compiled it (along with the Orthodox Christians as they were all one Church at the time). Protestants removed 7 books.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That the Bible is the source of doctrine does not mean that everything else that the Church has produced over the centuries is of no value and should not be used. That is the error of Solo Scriptura, which many radical Protestants adopt in actual practice while singing the praises of Sola Scriptura.

        • Neiman

          They don’t care Gary – it is Catholic tradition and that is greater than God’s Word. If the Roman Pope says it is true – He is greater than God.

          By the way, I see the mindless attacks on you, keep the faith.

          • Gary

            I know. Thanks for the support.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neiman, do you support Gary in his admiration for the Phelps clan and the actions of Westboro Baptist Church?

          • Gary

            The Phelps family has opposed homosexuals, while the catholic religion has nourished them.

          • Neiman

            I do not support or defend their hateful, public opposition to soldiers or gays, especially at funerals. I do not support the Westboro Baptists in any way, shape, manner or form; but, that does not mean that by his words here, I have any reason to doubt Gary’s faith in Christ.

          • Gary

            You don’t oppose homosexuals? You don’t understand that the US Government is fully in support of homosexuals which makes them the enemy of God?

          • Neiman

            Let me be clear – I do not hate nor oppose homosexuals as human beings created by God and I believe in their having every opportunity through repentance (turning from the lifestyle) and acceptance of Christ, to be saved. I oppose homosexual conduct as a sin, I oppose gay marriage, I oppose their militant attacks on the Church and their moral corruption of our world. But, as human beings I love every one of them as Jesus loves them, I pray for their salvation, I seek no violence against them, nor would I encourage any Christian to ever act hatefully towards them as human beings.

          • Gary

            I don’t believe God ever saves homosexuals, OR their supporters. When a person is so corrupt to endorse that, God has given them up, according to Romans one.

          • Neiman

            We disagree!

          • Gary

            Yes. No hard feelings though.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is great that you afford Neiman the charity of the enemy of your enemies is a friend.

          • Neiman

            You want desperately to sow seeds of strife, division and hate, it is your stock in trade.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is not what Gary is doing? If a Catholic or some other type of Christian would make the same criticism of his support of Phelps, Gary would instantly call down the fires from heaven onto their heads.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I think the two of you are so phony it is sickening. you are the worst actors in the world. I am sorry but you are not cutting it . I don’t believe your lies for a second. give it up it is almost laughable.
            So stop embarrassing yourself.

          • pax2u

            interesting how the various anti Catholic unite no matter how odd
            truly strange bedfellows

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Good morning Pax2u. I am running on slow today. My son and his family got in at 11 pm last night. and the kids were wide awake. But I can talk for a minute. You are right. they are very strange to begin with. I will not put up with their none sense. If you want to believe in something other than I do I do not care. Just don’t push it on me. And if you continue to try and make us look like idiots, I suggest you dispense with that attitude. OK Pax got to go now.

          • pax2u

            good morning to you, I find it amazing the amount of hatred towards Christians here, sad that so many build their theology on hating Catholics
            take care

          • Oboehner

            From a mary-worshiper. Catholicism is just a reincarnation of roman mythology; they had the god of this and the god of that, catholics just changed that to “patron saint”, but it is the same thing complete with the “queen of heaven” nonsense.

          • pax2u

            I worship the Christian Trinity and forgive you of your hatred of Christians
            do not allow your hatred to consume your eternal soul
            I forgive you, and you have my pity

          • Oboehner

            You worship mary and a “church” that hates Christians, you have my pity.

          • pax2u

            let me guess you have no church or denomination
            I will pray for your eternal soul

          • Oboehner

            You show hate by bearing false witness.

          • pax2u

            what is your denomination?

          • Oboehner

            Show me denomination in the scriptures.

          • pax2u

            the anti Catholic lunatic fringe never belong to a denomination
            it is best that you are alone, you and your Obama photo, do you worship Obaman?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I hear you and I can not believe that it is happening. I realize we have had problems before but this is insanity. I think it has been in the works pretty heavy for about 6 years. took me a long time to understand what was going on. It is pretty scary. Actually I have never been this nervous about anything in my life as I am about this problem. And it seems to me these people that are the most offensive are the ones that are not that smart. My thought is they are plants. put here to disrupt the whole catholic religion. And to cause problems within the races. If we let them succeed we will be forever living in Hell. just my opinion.

          • pax2u

            It really is very sad, their hatred of Catholics is greater than their love of Jesus Christ
            Some are afraid to proclaim the Christian Trinity because they see it as a Catholic Tradition, so very sad, we need to pray to Jesus Christ for them

          • Oboehner

            council of trent, Vatican 2.

          • pax2u

            If you believe in the Christian Trinity you are my Christian brother or sister,
            Peace to you

          • Oboehner

            I don’t believe in pagan mary-worship.

          • pax2u

            and neither do Catholics
            but hateful bigoted anti Catholics will spread that lie,
            and I will pray for your eternal soul

          • Oboehner

            Why do they do something they don’t believe in?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIPIvKAOo58

          • pax2u

            you said that I lied that you have no denomination
            so what is your denomination?

          • Oboehner

            “you said that I lied that you have no denomination” You lie about that.
            Where is denomination in scripture?

          • pax2u

            so since I lied when I said that you have no denomination
            I apologize, now what is your denomination?

          • Oboehner

            It is the one in the Bible – if there is one.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you are alone

          • pax2u

            now you do not know the Bible, so very sad

          • Oboehner

            Show me where “denomination” is then I’ll know.

          • pax2u

            matt 16

            …17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Oboehner

            I still don’t see denomination no matter how many time you post that – it’s not there.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you are alone with out a church, with out a denomination, and with out Christian Fellowship
            it is best that you are alone

          • Oboehner

            POPE TO ASK FORGIVENESS FOR PAST FAULTS OF CHURCH’S CHILDREN

            VATICAN CITY – On March 12, the first Sunday of Lent, John Paul II will publicly ask the Lord’s forgiveness for past and present faults of the children of the Church. …This morning, Bishop Piero Marini, Pontifical Master of Ceremonies, explained the meaning of this Day of Forgiveness in the Vatican Press Office. He explained that “in all generations the holiness of the Church has shined forth, witnessed by an incalculable number of her children; nonetheless, the Church suffers from the contradiction of the presence of sin, which has continued to weigh down in the road of the people of God. …For the first time in history, John Paul II will confess the sins committed by Christians through the centuries.” …Specifically, he will admit the sins committed in the service of truth: intolerance and violence against dissidents; religious wars; violence and abuses of the Crusades; and violent methods of the Inquisition. …The Holy Father will also express the repentance of Christians for the sins committed in relation to the people of Israel: contempt, acts of hostility, and silences

          • pax2u

            I am always thankful that the hateful anti Catholic lunatic fringe is alone with out Christian fellowship
            thank you for serving your purpose as the face of liberal hate of Christians

          • Oboehner

            Better ask for forgiveness for that.

          • pax2u

            I always ask forgiveness to the Christian God Jesus Christ
            are you a Christian?

          • pax2u

            news flash there are sinners in the Catholic Church
            are there sinners in your Church? , oh that is right you have no church, no denomination, no Christian fellowship, you have
            nothing, and for that I am thankful

          • Oboehner

            The pope is infallible right?

          • pax2u

            only to the Church on faith and morals from the seat of St Peter which I think has only happened 7 times in 2000 years
            do not worry these statements would not apply to you

          • Oboehner

            Pick and choose.

          • pax2u

            sorry but in English words mean things

          • Oboehner

            Like venerate means worship.

          • pax2u

            sorry, but to honor does not mean worship
            I am glad that you are trying to learn the English language, welcome to America

          • Oboehner

            Like venerate means worship. Bowing to graven images is worship and idolatry – catholic staples.

            “Mary, not one of thy devout servants has ever perished: may I, too, Be saved!” Pope Benedict XV

          • pax2u

            I hope that you will be able to understand this
            In our Country, which is AMERICA, we venerate, we honor the AMERICAN flag, but we do not WORSHIP the AMERICAN flag,
            since you are new to AMERICA, you may not understand this, sorry if I am using too long of words
            do you have a green card or a visa to stay here

          • Oboehner

            Venerate means worship. Bowing to graven images is worship and idolatry – plain English.
            “Who can worthily thank thee and adequately praise thee, oh Blessed Virgin, who by thy fiat has saved a lost world.” St. Augustine

          • pax2u

            I am not sure what third world hell hole you are posting from but in AMERICA we are mostly CHRISTIANS so far, I am sure that you and your terrorist brothers hate Christians, but we still love AMERICA, I hope you may one day become a Christian, and stay out of AMERICA

          • Oboehner

            Ohhh, the hate is oozing. I though you said you were catholic? Why are you worrying about Christians, plan on starting the inquisition up again?

          • pax2u

            if you are a Christian do you have a denomination?

          • Oboehner

            Denomination is a man-made club.

          • pax2u

            I understand why you can not be a part of a Christian Church

          • Oboehner

            I understand why you can not be a part of a Christian Church

          • pax2u

            I am a Catholic what is the name of your denomination ?

          • pax2u

            maybe you will be a Christian one day

          • Oboehner

            maybe you will be a Christian one day

          • pax2u

            I understand why you are alone, and filled with anti Christian hate, what is the name of your denomination? or are you alone

          • pax2u

            I see you worship Obama your pagan God

          • Oboehner

            Making stuff up again evolutionist?

          • pax2u

            since you have no Christian denomination is Obama your God

          • Oboehner

            You lie like a catholic.

          • pax2u

            I am a Catholic and I am a sinner
            what is the name of your denomination?
            or are you alone?

          • pax2u

            so is you tube your denomination or is it Jack Chick hate comic books?

          • Oboehner

            What does the Bible say about denomination or Jack Chick?

          • pax2u

            that we should pray that hate us, and I pray for your eternal soul

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            who cares? you have changed things around so much.

          • Oboehner

            It is the RCC who has changing the Word of God – and denying it.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            This is like the it is Bushes fault. So now it is the Roman Catholic churches fault. hOw long is this going to continue?

          • Oboehner

            Many things were Bush’s fault just as many things are Obama’s fault.

            “how long is this going to continue?” As long as the RCC changes and ignores the Word of God.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            As long as you let it.

          • Oboehner

            How about as long as it holds water – which could go on forever.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            And we don’t believe in you. Never ever. so forget your idea of one religion. It will never happen. just remember if you get crazy we will be forced to do the same.

          • Oboehner

            One religion is Biblical (figures a catholic would discount the scriptures), evidence shows it will be the pope as the “vicar (or replacement) of Christ”. Vicar of Christ from Latin Vicarius meaning replacement.

          • Gary

            Which catholic “saint”, who is now in Hell, will you pray to today?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Gary, what you choose to believe is your business. it is when you try to take us away from our beliefs and discourage us from believing what we want to believe I will fight you all the way. so do not bother to try to change what is mine. And who gives you the right to say who is sainted and who is not. That alone is never going to get you anywhere except maybe Hell. I will continue to pray to God and anyone one else I choose. Maybe I will pray to a saint to help get you back. I would ask god to bless you, but not today.

          • Neiman

            You cannot prove a single lie!

            You must be a liberal, you want to silence anyone that disagrees with you.

            I don’t mind being a fool for Christ!

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            You can not prove a single truth. I think you are not reading me . I stated I don’t care who you believe in that Is your preference. just don’t try and push it on anybody else. And assuming that I am a liberal is another stupid remark. that tells me you are a person that is easily led. So stop with the garbage. I will fight you to either your end or mine. And because of God I am a winner. I am not here to silence anyone . This is a free country you are free to say what you want. Disagree with someone yes maybe but never not allow them to speak no. But please don’t bother to communicate with me any longer because you and I are thru. Lets say I am divorcing you. That sounds more final.

          • pax2u

            you will be attacked here by those who hate your Christian faith
            usually by those with out a denominational doctrine and a theology of hating Catholics
            keep your faith

          • Oboehner

            Or those with some kind of denomination fetish.

          • pax2u

            like those who attack Catholics and hide any denomination

          • Oboehner

            “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Ephesians 5:11

          • pax2u

            Matthew 22:36-40

            36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

            37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

          • Oboehner

            I don’t see mary anywhere in there.

          • pax2u

            she is not there, do you see Mary everywhere?
            what is your denomination?

          • Oboehner

            I see graven images of mary everwhere, sometimes in bathtubs.
            Where is denomination in scripture?

          • pax2u

            you avatar is a man made image of Obama, so you worship Obama

          • Oboehner

            Look closer.

          • pax2u

            it is ok if you worship Obama, Now I understand why you have no Christian denomination

          • Oboehner

            If you are so blind you cannot see my avatar is a morph of Obama and Boehner, then it is no wonder you are too blind to see truth.

          • pax2u

            Gays hate the Catholic Church, Liberals hate the Catholic Church, Muslims hate the Catholic Church
            so I do not care if you are a Gay, Liberal Muslim, I forgive you for hating the Catholic Church

          • Oboehner

            Athiests love the pope, he promotes their religion. Homosexual pedophiles love the catholic church, why do you think so many become priests?

          • pax2u

            since you are a gay, muslim, liberal I understand why you hate the Catholic church
            good luck

          • Oboehner

            You bear false witness again?

          • pax2u

            good luck with your hatred

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…
            it is best that you are alone

          • Oboehner

            Try again, it’s not there, and the church was not built on a pebble.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you have no denomination, and I am not surprised

          • Oboehner

            The Bible says nothing of denominations – they are irrelevant.

          • pax2u

            Matt 16

            17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18″I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19″I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”…

          • Oboehner

            I see Jesus building his church on the fact that he is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but nothing about denominations.

          • pax2u

            it is best that you have no denomination

          • pax2u

            is there a reason you can not have fellowship with Christians?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            pax2u, what is the matter, I feel you turning against me. why are you letting them get to you. I warned you before about it. don’t let them do this to you. weather you know it or not I am protecting you. but if you stray to far off course then I can’t reach you.

          • pax2u

            I am sorry, I am not turning against you, you are a lovely person
            I just wanted to warn you about the hatred of Catholics by some here who base their theology on lying and hating Catholics
            I agree with you that the are phony and sickening and they are an embarrassment to Christians

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I did not think for a minute. They can confuse matters. that is what they do best. I can’t wait until SATCitizen gets back. He is one of our big guns. the other is doing a good job but they are many and at this time we are not. Like I told them I will not stop fighting them ever.

          • pax2u

            I am with you, they want to put our faith on defense as they are ashamed to claim a denomination.

          • pax2u

            I saw a post from Frank, who says that he was raised as a Catholic and knows all about the Catholic Church, said that the up side down cross of the Chair of St Peter is a Satanic Cross

            When Nick from Detroit explained that it represents the fact that St Peter asked to be crucified up side down because he said is was not worthy to die as his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

            Neiman posted this

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.
            When I asked Neiman several times for the Bible Book, Chapter and Verse that supports his statement
            nothing but crickets
            and they say that Catholics do not know the Bible

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            oK, you Irish people sure have a temper. I have a whole clan of Irish friends. cant control them either. but I love the just as much as always. But you I think I can keep you within my reach. Remember do not stray. We are your protection.

          • pax2u

            Another reason why I stepped away from the key board is
            that we had a house full of young men, over 21, in our house last night. A friend
            of my youngest son leaves tomorrow for Marine Corp Basic Training and they had
            a going away party here and they went to sleep about 4am. Dad took the keys
            from the bunch and made sure none of the cars left the drive way. They are now
            starting to wake up and we are making them breakfast. My youngest son is in the Marine Corp Officer training program and will be leaving for his basic training in Georgia this
            summer.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            My granddaughter just finished her tour of duty in Afghanistan. She is in the army and is a military police. she came home with a bunch of medals. She was guarding a general and he recommended her for a promotion. She is thinking of making it permanent. I wish she would not do that but I have no say in this. So I will spend a lot of time praying to my our God. that she will be all right Please thank your son or us. we will make sure he has enough prayers to carry him thru.

          • pax2u

            I feel the same as you, I am not excited about my little boy being in danger, but at the same time he is a man now and this is his decision,
            He scored very well on his ACT test and is in the honor Biology program in College, he may end up doing Bio/Chem warfare research
            thank you very much for your prayers,
            Blessings to you

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            my neighbors son is a Bio medical engineer. he has his masters and is thinking about being a professor. I think that we should be proud of both of them. Both chose great careers. You are welcome.. Bless you and your family also.

          • pax2u

            thank you
            your posts make me smile

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Now that makes me happy. I get a little crazy at times. MY god I forgot what it is like having 2 year old and a four year old around. If I have to sing Farmer in the dell one more time I am going in my room and lock the door I can not find my floor anymore it is full of army men and tanks and blow up things and the family rom floor s filed with MIni mouse and mickey and her house and lego toys .Ii am surprised I haven’ hit the floor yet from stepping on a toy!! Oh well we are going to take them skating pretty soon.2 of my daughters. and another grandson. and when we get back Mia will want to sing again

          • pax2u

            give them a hug for me, mine are 22 and 21 and14 , they were only small once

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Well we are back from skateland . and no broken limbs. amazing. They had fun. I will give them big hug. there is 3 of them. And they are waiting for the computer. especially the 12 year old. he is cracking me up he is sitting here making weird noises because he wants the computer. I will choose now to give him a big bear hug. maybe I can talk to you later. The rug rats should be in bed .

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            done . They thought I was crazy. They have 3 aunts and my neighbors that do nothing but kiss and hug we only see them every 2 years. boy a 2 year old sure can run fast!!.

          • KenS

            God forgives ALL SINS, All means ALL, not just your PET sins. If a homosexual was to be given the Gospel and rejected his sinful lifestyle for said gospel and repents and believes on Christ he would be saved the same as an adulterer, liar, thief, murderer, etc…would be saved if he rejected his sinful life style and believed on Christ.

          • Oboehner

            Then God wouldn’t save ANY sinners from ANY sin, and yes that would include you.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Neiman, please explain to me why if you say what you say about homosexuals you will tolerate them but for Roman Catholic you think we are horrible. we do not tell you how to run your life. Why do you insist on being so nasty to us and so forgiving to homosexuals. I can’t figure out if you are just confused and not sure how you feel or a real jerk and don’t care about anything.

          • Neiman

            I never said all Roman Catholics are horrible, while some are, a couple here are, as are many people of other faiths; it is the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings that I think are false and lead precious souls into Perdition for which I am intolerant.

            I love Roman Catholics like homosexuals or any sinner, I want to see them rescued and to find eternal life in Christ. For those few Roman Catholics that have genuinely come to salvation by grace alone and are born again of Christ, saved, they are fully brothers and sisters in Christ, even while they still hold to some harmful, heterodox beliefs. Yet, they are few indeed, because Roman Catholic doctrines, in that they add any works of the flesh at all, prevents them from coming to salvation.

            But, you will be happier if you just think of me as a jerk and that I do not care about anything.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            First , why would you class us with homosexual? And where do you get the idea that your so called religion is perfect or should be the only one. who taught you that you should think this way. I am sorry but you are wrong. I don’t care what you choose to follow as your religion. but what you are trying to accomplish is not right. stop and think about it. you are trying to take us away from our God because you are unhappy. You have your head so screwed up and don’t deny it. I am not blind. And the uncertainty in your thinking screams out. So I will say to you Neiman, please do as you like but stop using us as an excuse to justify what you are going to do. It won’t work and you will be left out in the cold cruel world. None cares what religion you chose but I care if your religion causes turmoil. And I may think you are a nice person but I wont hesitate to fight for our god and religion.

          • Neiman

            You Catholics are raving mad!’

            I classed you with all sinners.

            I never said I had a religion at all, let alone that my beliefs were perfect.

            I am not trying to take you away from your God, I am trying to lead you away from the lies of your Church.

            It is your Roman Catholic Church that creates turmoil, it has persecuted the Christian church for almost two thousand years.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OK, you don’t want to play nice anymore. listen up, we are not raving mad you are the one that needs anger management. If you are saying you are classing me with all sinners maybe you should duck. I have no use for people that have to have the world their way. I think you probably were a very nice person at one point in your life. But I don’t intend to let that happen to me ever. If you are through. we are not responsible for what happened over two thousand years ago. Feel bad ,yes can it be changed, no so I think we will concentrate on making things better. How can you be sure your life is better now?

          • pax2u

            I love your post
            I stepped away from the key board last night after dealing with some here who say that the are true “christians” and everyone else is going to hell
            blessings to you and yours

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            You mean all 7 or 8 of that are here fighting for our rights to believe in our God are all raving mad? THEN SO BE IT !!! AND YOU ARE CLASSING US WITH ALL SINNERS? BY WHOSE AUTHORITY? AND ONE MORE THING. IF I DECIDE NOT TO FOLLOW SOMETHING THAT WAS SAID THAT I DID NOT LIKE OR AGREE WITH. THE FIRST THING I WOULD DO IS ASK SOMEONE FROM THE CHURCH WHY AND WHOSE IDEA IT WAS. THEN I WOULD DECIDE IF I WOULD AGREE . NO ONE PERSON CAN MAKE ME ACCEPT SOMETHING THAT I DO NOT WANT. I WILL KEEP THE DEVIL AT BAY FOR AS LONG AS NEEDED. He is something to be watch out for I have been able to avoid him all these years and so he will not sneak by as a catholic anything. And as I said once before, two thousand years was a long time ago and we can not feel responsible for that. The only thing we can do is make sure it never happens again. So why don’t you quit the garbage talk and leave us alone in our faith.. And stop spewing hatred.

          • Neiman

            To save you time and effort, haven’t you noticed that I mostly ignore you and do not much care for anything you have to offer? If so, why waste your time?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            You got it. if you don’t care others do. so ignore me I guess you tried, but if that is the case why are you talking to me? You never ignore me. I wish you would. Did I say something to hurt your feelings. I hope not.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yes, Neiman, everyone notices that you pick and choose your battles very selectively. It is becoming quite apparent why you do this.

          • Neiman

            Yes, you have caught on – it is because I do not suffer fools gladly.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, that is not the reason that I was talking about.

          • pax2u

            still waiting for Nieman, the self declared Bible expert, to find the Bible, Book, Chapter and Verse where he stated that Jesus Christ made the prophecy that St Peter would be “hung” upside down

          • pax2u

            Neiman the self appointed Bible expert who defends Frank when Frank said that the up side down cross on the Chair of St Peter is a Satanic statement

            Nick from Detroit corrected Frank saying that St Peter asked when being put to death to be crucifed up side down since St Peter said that he was not worthly do die as Jesus Christ

            but Nieman needed to support Frank

            Neiman> Nick_from_Detroit •a day ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            Since Neiman is the self appointed Bible expert he was asked to provide the Bible Book, Chapter, and Verse to support his statement of the prophesy of Jesus, rather than to provide the Bible citation or man up and admit his error his response is just crickets, and he then changes the subject and finds something else to attack Catholics

          • pax2u

            Frank of Neiman’s Klan has now said that Neiman is not EXACTLY a liar, and a fraud who is a self described Bible Expert for not being able to defend his claim that Jesus made a prophecy that St Peter would be crucified upside down
            Nieman’s pride and arogance does not allow him to accept the fact that his statement was in error

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I think you are wrong in your assumptions that all the government is OK with the gay movement. That is not true. The president is not have an issue with the gay movement and his cabinet feels like he does because they make good money and they would like to stay in he position they are in. So I beg to differ with you. it is not the whole government . Just the executive branch. so do not put the blame on everybody.

          • Gary

            Promoting homosexuality is the official policy of the federal government, including the military, and including the courts. It is not just the executive branch.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            You show me the real proof of that. I need documentation. But you do agree the executive branch is responsible for it also? And did I not say the people that are working in government that get a paycheck will go along with what ever to keep their job. please tell the whole story just like it was told to you.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            yes, but the buck stops with the White House. And that’s where it started. And that is who should end it!! We can survive if we all get together instead of arguing about things we can not change and work very hard to survive. it will take a lot effort on every body’s part to do what they can to get our country back and that should be our main concern right now. You can argue later when we have met our challenge. Gary could you please help us out.? We need to get together for this one, it isn’t about just us anymore and that is crazy. we are so close to being destroyed. I don’t think you are ready for that. I know I am not. please answer me in a kind way. I do not need you too be any other way. I am sure you will agree.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Gary, what is wrong I told you this a while back. the only one promoting that would be POTUS.
            the rest are doing what they have to so they can keep their jobs.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is good that you have distanced yourself from Gary in that regard. Nevertheless, does it not lead you to wonder the state of Gary’s walk with Christ if he is able to support such people without any second thoughts? We shall see how he treats you after rebuking him on this account.

          • Gary

            Jesus Christ opposes homosexuals, AND those who support homosexuals, including the US Government.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What about Neiman? Is Jesus Christ opposed to Neiman because he rejects what the Phelps clan does towards gays and soldiers?

          • Gary

            I don’t necessarily agree with all of the methods of Westboro. But they are right about homosexuality being something God hates.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Uh oh, Gary, your strict black/white, binary thinking is beginning to crack at the seams.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            If your God is better than our God according to you. But what you are saying our God and your God feel the same way about Homosexuality. Hmmm So where is the difference between your God and my God? OH yeah, you haven’t figured that one out yet? That’s ok take your time. We are in no hurry.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            so your solution is kill them all in your gods name . Isn’t their something in the bible that said thou shalt not kill?

          • KenS

            No, Jesus opposes sin, and commands us to seek out the sinners and give them the truth, not to seek out the sinners and Hate them and bash them. Once you have told them that you and God hate them, how do you expect to reach them with God’s Love?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Gary, how many times do you intend to repeat this stupid statement. I do not like them either. I am catholic. how many times do I have to repeat this?

          • Neiman

            I have not distanced myself, I love Gary as a Christian brother and cannot expect he and I to walk in lockstep on every issue.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You are balking.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            hold up their manly man, did you not say we can not call each other brother and sister as a Christian.? Now you are saying I love Gary as a Christian Brother. So what is good for you is not good for anyone else. I see you are on self destruct. That is one way to end your problem.

          • Neiman

            I realize that thinking and logic and reason and God’s Word are not your strong suits; but if you get help, this may reduce somewhat your poverty of understanding.

            I never said Christians are not to call each other brother and sister, we should make such references more often in my opinion. They are brothers and sisters because they are born again of the Spirit of God, they have become His children, parts of the family of God because of their salvation. We are all part of God’s family and thus brothers and sisters in Christ.

            Now Roman Catholics, by your own doctrines are not born again, you are not saved, past tense, you will not know if you are saved until you die, but are “being saved,” through much effort and even then a great many of them will spend a million years or more in Purgatory, a place that sounds an awful lot like hell to me, getting your sins purged. Thus, by your own Church doctrines you cannot say you are saved now, present tense or part of the family of God. Not being saved (past tense) I cannot think of you or call you my brothers and sisters in Christ.

          • pax2u

            you have much in common with Gary and his Westboro Baptist Church they are your “christian” brothers

          • Neiman

            I hope and pray: (a) You will get saved and get away from that false Roman Catholic Church. (b) That you will grow up and stop acting like a child. (c) That you will stop being a recalcitrant, pathological liar. (d) You will get help with all your hate.

          • pax2u

            I hope and pray that my personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ forgives you of your hatred and bigotry of Christians

            I realize that you support Gary and his Westboro Baptist Church since he also hates Catholics

            The Protestant Ku Klux Klan also hate Catholics and proclaim to be true Christians, and you have much in common with them and Gary’s Westboro Baptist Church

            Herr Neiman, I am sorry that California is browning with all of those nasty Catholic Hispanics

            I am not surprise that you no longer associate with a Baptist Church, Billy Graham is a wonderful Christian, and I am not surprised that you have no church or denomination that would share you hatred and bigotry

            yes you are tu es asinus magnificis, but I should apologize to jackasses everywhere

          • Neiman

            You do not know Jesus at all!

          • pax2u

            sorry you are not Jesus Christ regardless what that voice in your head tells you, Herr Neiman

          • James Grimes

            The creepy guy is at it again. Yes, he acts like a child. He’s probably an unhappy old man.

          • pax2u

            poor Herr Neiman needs your support, you and Gary and the Westboro Baptist Church

          • Neiman

            A. There are more than one, his self anointed majesty “Magister_militum_praesental” is another.
            B. It is my fault for directly replying to either of them, they are both mentally unbalanced.

          • pax2u

            are you calling for back up, I thought you were always saved, or are you in doubt, if you are truly saved

          • Neiman

            No one will answer you as you are of the anti-Christ and are trying to bully people into answering, while you avoid questions. I don’t need back-up to deal with a child like you.

            Ever statement you make is a lie!

          • pax2u

            where in the Bible did Jesus state that st Peter would be “hung” up side down

          • pax2u

            Nieman you are my Christian Brother, you say that every statement I make is a lie

          • Neiman

            We are not brothers at all.

          • pax2u

            we are taught if another believes and worships the Christian Trinity then they are Christians even though they may be are separated brethren

          • Neiman

            “…18″Truly,
            truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself
            and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch
            out your hands
            and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you
            do not wish to go” 19Now
            this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God.
            And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”
            John 21

            There are some disagreements about the interpretation of this passage. John Gill argues: ” for by the above words Christ not only intimated that Peter should die,
            not a natural, but a violent death, or that he should die a martyr in
            his cause, but the very kind of death he should die, namely, by
            crucifixion;”

            In the Pulpit commentary is says “Doubtless the transposition of the two phrases must not be pressed too
            much, since the stretching of the arms might possibly bear the literal
            interpretation of the action which was forced upon the victim, and the
            subsequent “girding” refer to the subligaculum, by which he was fastened
            to the instrument of torture; while the “being carried whither he would
            not” might, though by some forcing of the phrase, be supposed, though
            enigmatically and obscurely, to refer to the uplifting of the cross with
            its living burden. The phrase, “signifying by what manner of death he
            should glorify God,”

            There is no objective evidence that Peter asked to be crucified upside down, that was reported by someone centuries later, and if he was crucified, it would fit within this prophecy of Christ.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Avoid questions? If that isn’t projection…

          • James Grimes

            Satan is always pleased whenever these apostates post their nonsense comments here. They really have no clue what pleases our Lord and Savior.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Who are the apostates, again?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            There you go talking in the third person about me, again.

            Let no one be deceived: it is you who have tried to paint me as “self-anointed” and “superior.” I have said no such things about myself.

            “Mentally unbalanced”—so now you are back to playground ad hominems. Are you waffling between insulting people’s intelligence and pietistic trumpeting about demonic possession and evil souls?

          • Neiman

            No, I am mostly ignoring you because I find you to be a thoroughly evil, strutting egoist and habitual liar.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            As we all know, that has been and remains unsubstantiated hot air.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OK, now you are stepping over the line. I told you about being nasty. now you are attacking a very good person. He is the best . He never said anything he can’t back up. And how do know what he is like? Did your irrational friends tell you? I say if you want to all somebody names call me names. I do not care what you do. Just leave my friends alone.

          • James Grimes

            It looks like you struck a nerve here. You’re calling it the way it is. He can be offended by his own actions. You certainly have no control over his behavior.

          • Neiman

            Unfortunately, I have struck the nerve of several of them here: (a) Because I won’t put up with their nonsense, their games and it makes them mad. (b) Whenever you challenge the faith of another, feeling insecure, they feel a natural need to strike out and go after the person exposing the weaknesses in their beliefs. (c) I try and ignore them and every time I violate my own desire to do so, they get upset and we go no where.

          • pax2u

            have you found the Bible Book, Verse and Statement that supports this statement of yours?

            “Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.”

          • pax2u

            so you ignore your statements of the Bible, I understand why

          • James Grimes

            Do what you can. I know you will stay strong in the faith. Did you see some of the incoherent comments that were recently posted? Same ole stuff again. Too bad he is so limited in his ability to think.

          • pax2u

            sad that Neiman makes up a Bible reference and hides,
            but I would not expect any thing more from him

          • James Grimes

            Give it a rest! You are pathetically incoherent. What does come through, however, is that you are mean-spirited. It’s obvious that decent people want no part of you.

          • pax2u

            it is ok, I understand why Neiman lies and does not understand the Bible,

          • James Grimes

            Sick dude. There’s something wrong with you.

          • pax2u

            If you are sick seek a doctor
            do you approve of lying about the Bible as Neiman lies about the Bible? now that is sick

          • James Grimes

            Haha.

          • pax2u

            where in the Bible did Jesus say this?

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            I can not find it? please give the Book, Chapter and Verse

          • James Grimes

            You are good for a good laugh.

          • pax2u

            I understand why you support those who lie about the Bible
            is lying about the Bible funny to the anti Catholics?

          • James Grimes

            Please translate this for me into normal English. Thank you.

          • pax2u

            you are a bigot
            you
            are
            welcome
            am I using small enough words for your small mind

          • James Grimes

            You are misusing the word BIGOT. Do you know what it means? I have to tell you – you make me laugh. Your misuse of words, your poor English, and your nonsense make me laugh at your efforts. Your whole show is pathetic. Now, if you want to act normally and not insult people, you would get more respect.
            You can stop wasting my time now. I have had enough entertainment for an afternoon.

          • pax2u

            do you have a denomination? I hope that you do not

          • pax2u

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.
            where is this prophecy made by Jesus?

            please tell me

          • pax2u

            why did herr Neiman run away when he is caught as a fraud?

          • pax2u

            sad that Neiman makes a statement about the Bible that he can not defend

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            where is this prophecy made by Jesus?

          • pax2u

            where is Niemans statement in the Bible?

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

          • pax2u

            why did you change your name to Guest? something to hide?

          • pax2u

            you are misusing the word Guest

          • pax2u

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.
            where is this prophecy made by Jesus?
            I am a Catholic and you will say that I do not understand the Bible, so tell me where this is in the Bible

          • pax2u

            so lying about the Bible is a good laugh to you

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            were is this in the Bible, or is this a good laugh for you?

          • pax2u

            sad that you know run away and hide, and change your name from James Grimes to guest,
            but i understand why you are ashamed

          • pax2u

            I see that I am getting many up votes from “guest” and since you changed your name to “guest” I want to thank you, but it is ok, you can come out of your closet now,
            oh and has Neiman found that Bible verse of Jesus’s prophesy that St Peter would be “hung” upside down? Neiman is a self declared Bible Scholar, we are all trembling waiting for his word on that Bible passage, but all I hear are crickets

          • Neiman

            He is very, very immature. He keeps posting the same things repeatedly, like a spoiled child. I feel bad for Gary, even though he has often denied he is a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, he keeps accusing him of being such a member. He even insists I am a Westboro Baptist. He insists if we do not pay attention to him that we do not believe in the Trinity and all sorts of nonsense. Sad really.

          • James Grimes

            He isn’t normal.

          • pax2u

            so you believe that lying about the Bible is normal?.

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            show the Book, Chapter and Verse where this is in the Bible

          • pax2u

            is lying about what the Bible says normal?

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

          • pax2u

            why does Herr Neiman lie about the Bible?

          • James Grimes

            He knows that you are a sick person in serious need of psychological help.

          • pax2u

            why is he hiding when he can not defend what he has posted? why?

          • pax2u

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

            where is this in the Bible
            cite the Book, Chapter and Verse

          • pax2u

            why do lie about the Bible?

            Neiman Nick_from_Detroit•17 hours ago

            WRONG! Jesus prophesied that Peter would be hung upside down, not that Peter would request it.

          • pax2u

            I pray that one day you will read and understand the Bible,
            and not lie about the Bible,
            I pray for your eternal soul

          • James Grimes

            According to him, you don’t know the Bible. He is delusional. His knowledge is zero. Have a great day.

          • pax2u

            we all are waiting for the self declared Bible Expert Prof Von Neiman to show us all the Biblical prophecy of Jesus Christ that St Peter would be “hung” upside down
            Bible Book, Chapter, and Verse
            but so far only crickets
            could the great Professor Von Neiman not know his Bible?
            I am shocked, just shocked

          • James Grimes

            I don’t consider myself anti-Catholic as many in my family, including ,my mother, are Catholic. I do point out the anti-biblical practices of Catholics at times. One thing the RCC does is produce some babbling pathetics as we see here. The one clown that we know all too well just keeps repeating himself with his outlandish statements. I realized recently how much we are to feel sorry for him. He must have been classified in school at some time. Anyhow, I will not waste my time with him. Have a good day.

          • pax2u

            here is an outlandish statement Professor Herr Von Nieman does not know the Christian Bible,
            and I want to thank you for all of your up votes when you post as “guest” as you did yesterday, thank you

          • Neiman

            Let me be clear, I have said it here before and state it again: I am not anti-Catholic as regards individual Catholics, I do not judge any specific Catholic as to their eternal fate nor question their professed devotion to Christ. I do oppose the Roman Catholic Church and a host of their teachings and practices. I am most passionately opposed to their teaching regarding salvation, I do not believe it is possible to mix grace and works of the Law, nor any works of the will that are designed to either gain or maintain one’s salvation or to please God. Such works frustrate grace and keep souls in bondage to the traditions and teachings of men. Lastly, I do most strongly assert that the Roman Catholic Church is apostate and the seat of the false prophet.

          • James Grimes

            Well said. When a church strays away from what God says in the Bible, it becomes apostate. It’s most unfortunate that the sheep who line up behind the apostasy are lost and don’t know it.

          • Neiman

            My deepest concern is for any and all souls, whether they be sinners of any stripe or if they are deceived by false teachings, to be shown the truth from God’s Word about salvation and hope that as many as possible will find Christ. I too am only saved by grace, like Paul I consider myself among the worst of sinners and grateful that despite being so unworthy He has seen fit to offer me the free gift of salvation by His Grace; and despite my own pride and sins, He offers me victory in this life and eternity, which is also solely by His Grace. So, should I rejoice in that having that most precious gift and then keep it only to myself and say that these other sinners and deceived souls are not my concern, or if they go to hell?

            Lastly, I see myself, humbly I hope, to be but a very poor watchman on the wall and in as loud and clear a voice (trumpet) as I can muster, warning souls of the beguilement of Satan and the danger it represents to their everlasting souls. I cannot be responsible for whether they heed the call, especially as I am such a flawed watchman myself, but I can only try and warn them as best I can and leave the rest in God’s hands. I only wish I were better equipped for the task.

          • James Grimes

            God bless you, Mr. Neiman.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Why are you still trying to make anyone look bad. It isn’t like you don’t post the same stuff over and. If you hate us so much than stop posting we are getting tired of your whole effort. unless you want to stick around for another round of brain picking by a qualified human being that loves our God as much as the rest of us

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            If you go to the top of this comment section, switch the “Sort by” from “Best” to “Newest” you find my response to your assertions about James and Paul.
            Besides Pax2u, which other Catholics have gotten mad & struck out, by the way?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Neiman, you sound like us. Hmmmm maybe you are. You have not struck a nerve of anybody. It s your cruel mind that is playing tricks on you. If you know we will never change why do you insist on keeping up with the attack.. I am still not sure you are one of them. If I prayed to my God he would tell me. If I can’t figure you out I might do that.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That is a great heap of projection, Neiman. Mr. Grimes should not be fooled by such attempts at self-justification.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Why do you say you won’t put up with our nonsense, if you would just stop the games not us. I don’t recall starting this mess. Wasn’t it your idea to get us out of our roman catholic ways and into yours?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            no one struck a nerve on this end. dream on. No you have no control over any body’s behavior not even your own.

          • James Grimes

            Really? Don’t be impressed with yourself. You have already been dismissed. Bye.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            wrong again. The only thing that is impressing me is you saying Bye!! I am not impressed with myself. And thank you for dismissing. that means I don’t have to deal with you. See my god knows how to take care of me to make sure no one does what you tried to do. Is your god that good to you? sorry don’t answer cause I don’t care.

          • pax2u

            james grimes is a very creepy poster, who talks about others when he posts to himself, and yesterday he was posting to me to defend Neiman, Frank , and Gary and the rest of the Klan and changed his poster name to “guest” , so very insecure, no wonder they hate Catholics and have no Denomination

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hello, Yes you are right. james sent me his answer what a jerk. He is really. goofey. I have been dismissed. yes!!

          • pax2u

            little jimmy is just another child living in mommies basement part of Herr Neiman’s Klan, another anti Catholic bigot with out a church, with out a denomination, and with out Christian fellowship, but what denomination would accept his hatred of Christians

            such a coward, that when he is exposed he posts as “guest”

          • pax2u

            watch James Grimes change his posting name to “guest” very childish

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hey, I hope you included me in that count. Because they are a part of my life. if they are unbalanced I want to be right with them.

          • Julie

            yes….not to spend any more time with these types….

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hi, I just would like to say everything you said sounds like what we feel and think about you, I am just tired of trying to help with their problems that they think are ours. If I said to you would you please go back thru your posts, just yours and read what you have written to us or about us IF you are honest with yourself you would see what I see.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Neiman, if that is the way you are going to ask your god to help us come to you. I would suggest you do it in a more gentle way. If he is as good as you say have respect for the position. After all he is your superior.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I repeat if you ever wrote anything and then did not deny it. I would advise who ever is around you call 911.

          • Neiman

            Now just what is it Madam Marzano that I wrote and then denied?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            oK, you can figure it out, I said my grandchildren are visiting me from out of state. And they come first. Oh yes, If you meant that word in a gentle way that as nice. But if you refer to me as a madam I might be a little angry. whatever I have to go play now.

          • pax2u

            thank you for the up vote for my rant to Herr Neiman, I could not help it, his hate and bigotry defines him, I have seen his posts on other topics and he is also a racist

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            just chill out a little. I refuse to let anybody due to me what he is trying to do to all of us. He is whatever he wants to be. I think I will let the big guns handle him. That is why god gave them to us. And I am proud of all of us.

          • pax2u

            I find it interesting that there are four anti Catholics, Gary, Frank, Nieman, and James Grimes and the only one that has a denomination is Gary who says that he is a Baptist, who says that Billy Graham,I believe to be a great Baptist, teaches a false Gospel, and Gary supports the hate of the Westboro Baptist Church as it protests the funerals of Soldiers who have died for America

          • James Grimes

            This is a run-on sentence that is very incoherent. Do you want to try again to make your insult understandable?

          • pax2u

            sorry, I forgot to add they are the knuckle dragging mouth breathing hillbilly hateful bigots/
            So are there no dentists or shoe stores in your part of the mountain?

          • James Grimes

            I’m not sure what you are talking about. This is another one of your comments that doesn’t make any sense. At this point, don’t bother trying again. You’ve run out of options.

          • pax2u

            I am sure that English is not your primary language an it is useless to you.
            What is your denomination, or are you alone with out Christian fellowship.
            Neiman have you found that Bible passage yet?

          • James Grimes

            LOL. This is pathetic.

          • pax2u

            It is pathetic to lie about the Bible. I see that Neiman is hiding in the weeds up voting your recent posts and afraid to acknowledge that he lies about the Christian Bible.
            So you have no denomination and no Christian fellowship, I can understand.
            I will pray for your eternal soul.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            No I think you have used all your space up in this conversation. Bye, now.

          • pax2u

            Please name your denomination, or are you also alone with out Christian fellowship
            Also why does Neiman lie about the Bible and refuse to offer support for his statements, afraid or is he just ignorant?
            Which is it Neiman?

          • Julie

            Another thing I notice about these Christian cults is that they spend alot of time away from the Lord to attack Catholics and say all sorts of slander and calumny but won’t dare expose their associations.

            Is it because they are so afraid we will treat them the same?

          • pax2u

            we are taught to forgive them for their hatred and pray for them

          • Julie

            So true…I was very hurt, felt even abused by just attitudes…and it has been that way for about 500 years…worst and most misconceived come out of our country because they are so far away from their Christian roots. So it is very hard for them to even get into dialogue with a Catholic and then getting agitated and start the name calling and refusing to see other passages of Scripture as well as history.

          • pax2u

            Julie, I had this interesting exchange today

            *****************************

            pax2u Gary • 11 hours ago

            Gary, you have said that you want the Government to execute homosexuals and some Catholics, have you added any others to your liquidation list?

            Gary pax2u • 7 hours ago

            You are one of the catholics.

            pax2u Gary • 6 minutes ago

            well Gary, so now you want me to be executed,

          • Julie

            Yes….I see them at the same level of Islam in how far out they are….they won’t commit…but there is such a thing as doing it in one’s heart and soul……

          • Julie

            Yes…I read an ancient Catholic prophecy that some day a pope would be taken from Rome and die a cruel death in Iraq…read that in 1982…preposterous…now look at Iraq, who is in there…and now US Intelligence is warning the pope and the Vatican they are now endangered.

            Wonder what the fundamentalist sects will think if and when our ‘god’…as CARM says we worship the pope and he is god to us and we do everything he wants….is finally dead….will they jump up for joy?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            if you figured out it was an insult how could it be incoherent. see what I mean. plus you want it to be understandable. I think you know what he meant.

          • Julie

            These types are accountable to nobody. Some day God will make sure they are and all the other anti catholic cults.

            I don’t consider main line denominations or ecclesia communities who focus on Christ…

            But when they deliberately distort and refuse to listen to how we truly believe or shun and condemn others who don’t think like they do…it is these ‘end time’ cults….

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OK, whatever you say. I thought I guoted you correctly. but you are doing one bad job of telling me what I said and what you said. so I think you need an attitude adjustment. I would love to do it for you today but I am being stalked by 2 grandchildren one wants to sing old Mc Donald had a farm a 2 year old. the 4 year old wan’ts me to help him draw a picture. And they come first in my life. So go put yourself in the rumble seat for a while. enjoy the scenery

          • Neiman

            Get saved and get back to me.

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Was that comment for me? You could not find a car with a rumble seat. I am sorry. and who am I getting saved from? not my 2 year old, although sometimes she gets a little strong. but she is sweet for the most part. she’s back. just like the rest of you guys.

          • pax2u

            you are great,
            Herr Neiman thinks he is God now

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            No way Pax. he is as confused as the rest of them. I am getting a feeling he is not sure about anything in life. And they say we nee too be save?

          • pax2u

            I needed to walk away from the keyboard and let my Irish temper cool down, there is a sad group here that is so self righteous that they make Christians look bad

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            They can say whatever they want it won’t make a difference. they are so off base about what they want to accomplish. I say let them off the hook.

          • Julie

            That is also another point…where are they really and what kind of life do they live and what kind of friends do they really have…

          • pax2u

            so you are Once Saved Always Saved?

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            OK, what now? I don’t want to be saved, not by your friends. Don’t want to hurt your feelings. But I don’t care for your friends at all. And why would you want me to get back to you? you are to crabby for me to even listen to you.

          • Julie

            Have you read the Summa Theologica? That is logic.

            You told me you knew the catechism and then contradicted it…that is no display of logic.

          • pax2u

            Neiman who reject Mother Theresa to embrace the hate of the Westboro Baptist Church and Fred Phelps just as long as Neiman can hate and lie about Catholics

          • Julie

            So that is what I have been dealing with.

          • Julie

            Too bad you don’t have any love for Catholics

          • Fundisi

            But I do love Roman Catholics, enough to tell them the truth about that false religion of the anti-Christ, enduring their anger that a few somehow might open their hearts to Christ and be rescued from the lies of the RCC.

          • Julie

            It is one thing to say you love Catholics then on the other hand make out they are false of the Anti Christ. If they were…you would run in the opposite direction.

            problem is…you don’t get Church. You look at Scripture without church. You love the Lord. Stay with Him and just stay out of kooky websites saying such junk.

            If we were antichrists…it would have been all over with 2000 years ago.

            The USA has the goofiest forms of Christianity. You know God is not as such. So to be stable, sane and a good example of Christianity just stay with the Lord….for it angels fear to tread where fools jump in…

            You don’t understand the Catechism..it states the same principles….but you didn’t see them at all…

            So leave me, Catholics, the pope, all pope, Orthodox…they believe the same but different culture, history, politics…(like why are you picking on Catholics…take a look at the Orthodox) alone. You just don’t get ecclesial deism. That is OK.

            It says in Revelation there will be those who will witness in the Word…stay in that…just stay away from the Ecclesia…you cannot convince anybody because you think we believe this or that.

            Do you know what priests and religous and certain lay do….every day they pray the Liturgy of the Hours.

            Go do a search and see the prayers that are done outside of Mass….the Pslams…the introductory Psalms…the times of day they pray the Scripture….My salvation is in the Lord, My Rock.

            There is nobody in the Church who worships the pope or any other person.

          • Fundisi

            Individual Catholics are deceived by the false, the anti-Christ teachings of the harlot Church in Rome, they are captive to the lies of the anti-Christ, which I have explained in great detail; and I love them enough to seek to see them delivered from the bondage to those false teachings, that they might find salvation solely and completely by God’s Grace, finding perfect rest in the complete salvation that is in Christ and cease their useless striving to be their own co-redeemers by their works of the flesh.

            I only offer the Truth, it is up to the Holy Spirit to open the eyes and ears of those deceived, but as you recall most of Israel and most of the world were and are also deceived and unable to see or hear, as are most Catholics.

            Now it is useless to continue this, you will never see or hear, to keep repeating on both sides is a vain disputation.

          • Julie

            I have a brain. It is not made of concrete. We all know about the anti christ.

            Have you ever read a single papal encyclical? Doubt it because just approaching one would probably frighten you and then you would think it was the devil doing something.

            There have been billions of Catholics if you go back to the beginning of the Church…who believed and felt as I…and their heads were not thick.

            If the Church is what you say it is, we would have all left thousands of years ago!!!

            BTW, Seattle, Jerusalem, Athens, and many other cities of the world are on 7 hills. But the Vatican is across the Tiber River from the 7 hills of Rome…been there, saw the place, and got A’s in geography.

            The Vatican does not sit on a hill.

            Likewise, two times in Scripture, Israel was called Babylon.

          • pax2u

            poor Neiman/Fundisi is willing to lie about the Bible to support his fellow anti Catholics, even if he was forced to change his name out of shame

            he has no denominational doctrine, and only a theology of hating Catholics

          • Julie

            He is in one of those anti Catholic cults. I just read another new one by the Chick guy and they put out claims he is a former Jesuit and literally makes up all sorts of things about Catholics.

            People willingly disposing themselves to hate Catholics by using the Bible…are vulnerable to people like him and his, and they are now saying on their webpage the Vatican created the Naziis….unbelievable…they are evil people.

          • pax2u

            they are very sad and evil, Fundisi condemns so many as not being “true” Christians, and of course he belongs to no denomination, is it that he does not believe that out of 30 thousand plus denominations that none of them are Christians? or is it that none of the 30 thousand plus denominations would accept his hatred of Christians?

          • Julie

            He doesn’t realize it but spiritually when he judges and condemns he is in a very very dangerous place…and could bring condemnation on himself.

            I have to always guard myself when answering people…you do see a consistency of scruples and misconceptions by a number of Protestant non denominationals…and when to discern I am dealing with a handful of people…It really hurt me so much…never had someone call me Satan…afterwards I thought I need to really guard myself because the Evil One works in such talk as well …..

            Thanks…

          • pax2u

            some times he sounds like a pre destination Calvinist, believing in Once Saved Always Saved, that way be can claim to be saved and still be able to hate, lie about others, and sin at will.

          • pax2u

            some times he sounds like a pre destination Calvinist, believing in Once Saved Always Saved, that way be can claim to be saved and still be able to hate, lie about others, and sin at will.

          • Frank

            “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty” …Pope Leo XIII – wow a human big enough to hold the place of God Almighty, what utter and complete blasphemy!!!
            As for catholic tradition being above God’s Word. God holds His Word above His name!! The idea that catholic anything is above God’s name is utter and complete blasphemy!!!

          • Neiman

            The Roman Catholic Church has always been filled with blasphemies, it is itself a blasphemy on the earth, it is IMO the false, apostate Church that in these times will be the seat of the False Prophet and he will testify on behalf of the anti-Christ. Yet, we Christians must love every individual Catholic, not with faint or superficial love, but love them as dear souls held in bondage to that false Church, we must pray that as many as possible will find their way out of that Church. Let there be no hate, no anger in our hearts against these precious souls for whom Christ also died and was raised to new life. Yet, may we also not faint in exposing and opposing all that is false about that Church.

          • Frank

            behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
            Yes, we must love them enough to tell them the Truth. Jesus is coming soon. They must repent before its too late and they are lost forever. It’s difficult for some to come to grips that what they trusted was actually a deceiver.

          • Julie

            You are totally misreading.

            You are the one projecting blasphemy.

          • Julie

            Again…it is the apostles who witnessed His Divine Majesty…not one person like Luther or the other reformers and all the way down to the continued fragmented church buildings you see all way down the streets that are unable to come together because of one concept or another.

            It is the Holy Spirit through the apostles and their successors, the work of many who assembled the books of Sacred Scripture for public person…not one unaccountable person choosing what he thinks and then having how many illiterates..in the millions…who follow them…I speak of those who still could not read.

            Scripture and tradition are inseparable.

            You don’t know what Tradition means…and SS Peter and Paul refered to hold on to their teachings and the traditions taught..

            Not Mr “slick”‘s.

          • Julie

            You still haven’t learned…read the catechism..its doctrines were composed by the apostles and early church fathers and certain popes.

            Both of you you are not witnessing Christ with your hateful ignorance

          • Fundisi

            I have read the catechism – it has nothing to do with the Apostles, the Roman Catholic Church did not even exist until 350+ years after the Resurrection, Peter was never a Pope, Mary was never prayed to or seen as an intercessor, Jesus was never literally present in the Eucharist and salvation by Grace + Works is anti-Christ and will save no one.

          • Julie

            No you didn’t read it.

            Peter can be said as a first bishop or first pope, but he was primarily co founder of the Church of Rome with St. Paul. Both died there…the Roman Christians were primarily Jewish who had escaped the Diaspora and were in church homes. But they all saw themselves in communion as the Church of Rome.

            I think you are not having access to any documented history.

            And you didn’t read it at all with any understanding but from your exegesis in attempt to dismantle and deny.

            So again, I am deciding no further discussion with you but will pray for you…and ask Blessed Mother’s intercession for your soul.

        • Julie

          I beg your pardon, ‘crap’…

          Get yourself a Catholic catechism… if you can…and see what we truly believe.

        • Julie

          Then don’t ask for anyone’s prayers when you are in need. Your evidence is simply anti Catholic construct….taking phrases out of context and re interpreting them to oppose Christians…this is not the work of the Lord.

      • Frank

        Pope Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: “O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix.”
        What blasphemy from a pope!!

        • Neiman

          You are right it is utter, hellish blasphemy. Pope John Paul Ii was trying to officially name Mary as co-redempter.

          • Frank

            Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: “To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man’s salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ.”

            More blasphemy from a pope!
            P.S. all these quotes are verified … Oops did I do that….

      • Frank

        More blasphemy from a pope an Antichrist: “All those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity.” Pope Benedict XV

      • Oboehner

        “Catholics agree that Jesus is our only Mediator between us and God.” catholics disagree with scripture: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1 Timothy 2:5

        “However, we see throughout Scripture that we are commanded by God to pray for one another.” Those who are living on this earth, there is not one passage that indicates we are to pray to mary, not one.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Mary is a Saint. We ask her to pray to her Son on our behalf.

          Edited to say that Mary is not merely a Saint. She is also the Mother of God.

          • Oboehner

            She cannot hear you Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and men. Christ existed before and created mary – she is not the mother of God, her own creator. She was a vessel used of God, nothing more.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Your statement about Mary not being the Mother of God is a heresy called Nestorianism.

          • Oboehner

            Call it what you like, it’s BS.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          We agree with all Scripture. “Hail Mary” is a quote from Scripture and a wonderful prayer. I believe that Scripture is true, including the passages about the intercession of the Saints. I would rather not put God in a box and say that He would have to divide His own Body of believers simply because some are living on earth and some are living in heaven. That doesn’t seem to make any sense and it does not line up with Scripture. Rather, we are all part of the Body of Christ and as such, we are all commanded (including those in heaven) to pray for one another.

          • Oboehner

            “Hail mary” was spoken by another woman, not Christ, Not God. Mary was given much grace, she did not produce it herself nor did she give it to anyone else.
            “…a wonderful prayer.” “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” Matthew 6:7

            As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed RATHER are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28

            Those of the Body of Christ that are no longer with us have nothing more to do with this world and do not hear requests for prayer, there are plenty enough here on earth to pray for one another.

      • Oboehner

        “Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.” St. John Chrysostom

        • CrossedtheTiber

          I am not familiar with this quote. I appreciate you appealing to the Church Fathers. Can you please give me the title of the book that contained the writings by St. John Chrysostom so that I can look at the context of this verse from his own words?

          • Oboehner
          • CrossedtheTiber

            Well, I must preface this by saying that we, as Catholics believe that we are saved by Grace alone. However, when we look at Grace and the saving work of Jesus’s death on the cross we realize that in order to die and rise again, Jesus first had to live. In order to live, He had to be born. In order to be born, Mary had to ‘intercede’ for us by saying “Yes” to the will of God. The point is that it is ALL God’s Grace. Mary saying “Yes” was an act of God’s Grace because she was full of God’s Grace. Jesus living and dying and rising again was an act of God’s Grace. All of salvation history is an act of God’s Grace. Interceding simply means acting on behalf of another. Mary said “yes” and then gave up her Son to death on the cross for us. Do you notice that Mary never pleaded for Jesus to be taken down. I’m certain that she wanted to with every fiber of her being, but she knew that Jesus had to die so that we could all live. She had to suffer the agony of watching her baby Boy be crucified so that we could all have eternal life. She didn’t run from the cross, instead she stayed right at the feet of Jesus and she leads all of us straight to the foot of the cross where we receive our salvation through her Son, Jesus.

          • Oboehner

            “Mary had to ‘intercede’ for us by saying “Yes” to the will of God.” No she simple obeyed God, that argument wouldn’t hold anymore water than those who drove the nails interceded for us.
            “Mary said “yes” and then gave up her Son to death on the cross for us.” Not biblical, she had no choice in the matter, it was God’s will.
            “Do you notice that Mary never pleaded for Jesus to be taken down.” It was not recorded as to all of what she did or did not say or do, she very well could have – that would have no relevance other than a historical note.
            “…she leads all of us straight to the foot of the cross where we receive our salvation through her Son, Jesus.” The Holy Spirit leads us, not mary: “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:13

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I believe that we were saying the same thing. I said that Mary said “Yes” and you said that she obeyed God. Isn’t that the same thing? However I do not see the connection you made between Mary’s “Yes” and the act of murdering Jesus. The people who nailed Jesus to the cross were fulfilling prophecies but they were not acting out of an obedience to God.

            I agree, the Holy Spirit leads us, and He does so in many, many ways, including through our Blessed Mother.

          • Oboehner

            “I said that Mary said “Yes” and you said that she obeyed God.” If she hadn’t God would have found another vessel to accomplish HIS objective.
            “However I do not see the connection you made between Mary’s “Yes” and the act of murdering Jesus.” What would have happened if Jesus was not put to death? Perhaps not obeying God, but fulfilling his plan nonetheless.
            “…the Holy Spirit leads us, and He does so in many, many ways, including through our Blessed Mother.” The Spirit can handle things all by himself, he doesn’t need a fallible human woman, not only that, the Bible speaks repeatedly of the Spirit leading – not once about mary (who is not my mother).

      • Oboehner

        “Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone.” St. John Chrysostom

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      Did you stand up in the middle of the wedding mass and the baptism and declare this out loud in front of the priest and the congregation?

      • bowie1

        No. We refrained from that part, and I sensed some tension from extended from some family members afterwards except the parents of the bride.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Do you ask other people to pray for you? Asking the Saints in heave to pray for us is no different. They are our Christian brothers and sisters and they are members of the Body of Christ. We do not cut them off from the Body simply because they now dwell in heaven.

    • Julie

      If you go back to around 200 AD, the Christians sought Blessed Mother’s intercession. If you go to Revelations, it states the martyrs and saints interceed for us.

      We are Church. We are not isolated individuals revolving around simply text.
      I ask for others prayers. I pray to the saints for their prayers because they are efficacious considering their great testimony to life in Christ in sanctity.

      The Christian life of the Church is the living response to Christ’s Resurrection and Ascension into heaven.

      Without the Church, Sacred Scripture stops at Revelations….and there is no testament following of lives lived in Christ. There is little mention of the persecutions of the ancient Roman Christians, nothing of the Christians who lived in the worst persecution of ancient Christianity in Asia Minor. Nothing.

      There were many martyrs, popes, bishops, pastors, holy men and women who greatly helped us grow in understanding life in Christ, and the great help they give us in their prayers from heaven.

      The Blessed Virgin Mary is the greatest saint in the Church, and Virgin Most Pure. She is closest to Christ. She is our heavenly Mother. Yes, she prays for us and her prayers have been great in protecting the West from Islam.

    • Julie

      That is what being part of the Church is about. We are in it together. If that is how you think then don’t ask your friends to pray for you……
      Yes..intercession of the saints is in Maccabbees and in Revelations.

      Catholics understand and relate to Scripture from its whole….because in essence it is Jesus revealed Who speaks to us, the Living Word of God.

      Every word, phrase, idea…is connected to each other….otherwise, you take one phrase in isolation, you are fragmenting and not seeing the big picture…

      Christ is great and draws all things up to Himself.

  • Linda

    I believe the Pontiff has forgotten what the Bible tells us. The Holy Spirit leads us into all understanding. No man comes to the Father except by the Son, and no man comes to the Son except the Father draws. I don’t see any mention of Mary.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Linda,
      If “the Holy Spirit leads us into all understanding,” why are there so many different Christian denominations out there? Thousands of them?
      Why can’t 2 billion Christians agree on what Christianity is all about?
      God Bless!

      • Neiman

        They do agree on the fundamentals of the faith, every true Christian does.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          What are those “fundamentals of the faith” Neiman? Name two Christian denominations that agree on ALL of them?
          Isn’t that how denominations begin? Because a man (or group of men) don’t agree with some tenet or doctrine, and leaves to practice “true Christianity”?
          It’s a slippery-slope, which has snowballed since the 16th Century, unfortunately.

          • Neiman

            tilled these into what became known as the “five fundamentals”:

            1. Biblical inspiration and the inerrancy of scripture as a result of this
            2. Virgin birth of Jesus
            3. Belief that Christ’s death was the atonement for sin
            4. Bodily resurrection of Jesus
            5. Historical reality of the miracles of Jesus

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            That’s it? The Creed is much longer than that.
            Do Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, et al agree that’s all there is? I don’t think so.

          • Neiman

            I am saying that on these things, no true Christian would disagree on these basic issues, even if they disagreed as touching many other doctrines. I am not talking about any other creed.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, why doesn’t the Holy Spirit lead them into the truth on what they disagree on?

          • Neiman

            For those that are born again of His Spirit, having the indwelling Spirit as Teacher and Guide, He does bring them into agreement. If they are not, one should suspect they have not His Spirit.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, if one agrees with Neiman, one has His Spirit? Is that how this works?
            I guess that means Gary isn’t born again of His Spirit, correct? Because you disagreed with him, 3 hours ago, on whether some Catholics can be your brothers & sisters, remember?

          • Neiman

            It has nothing to do with agreeing with me. It is God’s Word. There is no evidence that Gary does not agree in his heart with these fundamentals of the faith. I said nothing about Him bringing us into unity on every possible point. Put your Gary hatred aside.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I hate no one, as Christ commanded. Did you read what you wrote?
            “If they are not [in agreement], one should suspect they have not His Spirit.

          • Neiman

            So? Make a point or stop wasting my time.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            So, you are not in agreement with Gary, as I’ve since found out, about how to treat homosexuals. Isn’t that part of the fundamentals of the faith?

          • Neiman

            We are not in agreement about homosexuals, in what way? I never listed it as one of the 5 fundamentals of the faith.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Did you forget what you wrote already, Neiman?

            “But, as human beings I love every one of them [homosexuals] as Jesus loves them, I pray for their salvation….” – Neiman

            “I don’t believe God ever saves homosexuals, OR their supporters. When a person is so corrupt to endorse that, God has given them up, according to Romans one.” – Gary

            “1. Biblical inspiration and the inerrancy of scripture as a result of this…” – Neiman

            Doesn’t Scripture have something to say about homosexuality? Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit brought the two of you to the truth on this subject?

          • Neiman

            What you fail to mention is that I also said homosexual conduct is a sin condmend by God and gay marriage is a sin as well. So, loving lost souls like gays and praying for their salvation does not imply that Gary and I disagree that it is a sin.

            The Holy Spirit has united us as to homosexual conduct and gay marriage being a sin condemned by God and that their only escape from hell is repentance and salvation by grace. Just because we disagree on how to think about them as lost souls, does not mean we are at enmity with one another. If one is wrong, God will in His time bring about correction.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I didn’t fail to mention it. It wasn’t pertinent to your claim that “For those that are born again of His Spirit, having the indwelling Spirit as Teacher and Guide, He does bring them into agreement.”

            “If one is wrong, God will in His time bring about correction.”

            I don’t understand. If you and Gary are both born again of His Spirit, why aren’t you in agreement on how to treat homosexuals? What if Gary dies tomorrow, or you do? If he’s wrong, does he go to the Hell of Damnation? If you’re wrong, do you?

          • Neiman

            I must first confess that I am getting awfully weary of you and your far too many posts every day, you go so far afield on so many different topics, it wears me out trying to answer and remain civil. This is my failure, not yours, I know better than to get caught up in this net of the Devil, him trying to too much occupy my time with meaningless debates. I will try in the future to ignore a great many of your posts, trying to focus more on the doctrine of salvation and what I believe are the many serious errors of your Roman Catholic faith in that regard and seek, with God’s help, to avoid the pitfalls of trying to offer my beliefs on so many diverse topics, when I have other things to do and in my haste and eagerness to answer can be subject to errors.

            Salvation is a gift of God’s Grace, it is obtained by faith alone and even that faith is a gift of God’s Grace. That faith is in the death and resurrection of Christ on our behalf, wherein we have new resurrected life, eternal life in Him, even in the here and now. Our continued Christian living is based, it can only be based, on this very same grace alone, that there is no room for any boasting at all that we earned our salvation or maintained it because of any decision of the will or act of the flesh. This can be the only way, as God must have, He deserves all the glory that on that Day He may receive as is His due, all thanksgiving, worship, praise and honor and no man can claim having any part in saving himself or in enjoying any degree of victorious Christian living.

            If, as I assume by His writings, Gary has come to salvation in that very narrow way, I trust that by God’s Grace he will day to day, grow in God’s grace, learning more and more of God’s Truth; just as I have, after many decades of life, as I am a slow and terribly ignorant student in the school of Christ; and I must, very often, be corrected and brought into a greater understanding of God’s Word day by day, wondering why I have been so slow and resistant to His Spirit. I say all of this, again assuming by his writings that Gary has come to Christ in this same narrow manner, that he too will grow at his own rate and time and by many hard lessons; and yet, should he or I leave this life tomorrow, we are assured of our salvation because of His Grace, wherein we humbly and gratefully accepted Him.

            For those that are trying by any works of the flesh, by any act of the will to gain or maintain their salvation or to please God in some way; for those that look to any man, any organization, any tradition, ritual or doctrine, they have denied grace, they have turned their backs on Christ and are trying to get into the sheepfold another way than by grace alone, they are to be pitied for they are under the Law and will be judged by the Law and self-condemned.

            If that does not answer your question, that is all I have to say on the subject.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Thank you, for such a heart-felt response. You might feel better if you could address me by name, as fellow brother in Christ, as an equal; rather than a poor, damned soul only deserving of your pity and prayers. I’m sure that you’re sincere in your concern for the fate of my soul, as I am of your’s. I don’t doubt that, at all.
            But, I fear that you’re weary because your brand of Christianity can’t provide answers to the tough questions that I’ve been asking you, Gary, and others.
            To just claim that you are saved, because in your mind you know that you are, because you believe that you received the Holy Spirit, is not Scriptural nor Christian. Christ demands more from us than a simple declaration. He said, “Take up your cross daily, and follow Me.”
            I’m just a poor sinner, like you. I can see that you love God “with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.” My hope is that you see more of Christ, because you are limiting your knowledge of Him by holding to man-made doctrines like Sola Scriptura & Sola Fide.

            May you, and your family, have a blessed New Year!

          • Neiman

            Many years ago, as the Assistant Pastor of our local congregation and as a host for a special dinner to honor him, shortly before his untimely death, I had the opportunity to meet the late Dr. Walter Martin, “The Kingdom of the Cults.” I respected Dr. Martin greatly and he said that albeit the Roman Catholic Church held to many heterodox beliefs/doctrines, he believed they were basically a Christian faith and that Catholics were Christians. As he studied all faiths and was a good Christian man, I accepted his opinion without any serious questions. Yet, as I recently started the debate against the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and examined their beliefs/history more closely than ever before, it became clear to me that even in the presence of their and your own alleged stated belief in Christ, the Roman Catholic Church and faith could not possibly be a true Christian Church and that if not all, at least the vast majority of Catholics, could not possibly be saved.

            So, embracing individual Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ, without knowing them personally and up close, I would find it very difficult indeed to embrace any of them as you suggest that you would prefer.

            While no one agrees on every point, I refer you to this link, which I am confident you will deem anti-Catholic and not deserving of your time; as for the most part, I agree with the reasons stated therein from Scripture as being in harmony with my own and they represent an answer to why I cannot at this time embrace Roman Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ: http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Christian.html

            It is one of the great frustrations of my life that most people that profess a Christian faith, are blinded, they cannot separate in their minds the Old Testament from the New Testament, they cannot separate it when Jesus or the Apostles are talking primarily to the Jews and they cannot separate the Laws of Moses from Salvation by grace. IMO this inability blinds them to the truth about Salvation and they are mostly deceived, thinking themselves saved, while they remain outside the Body of Christ, never having come into the New Birth in Christ which Jesus demanded when He said, “ye must be born again.”

            When you talk of “Take up your cross daily, and follow Me,” you are, I believe, thus blinded to the fact Jesus was talking to the Jews and showing them and everyone else the utter impossibility of gaining or maintaining salvation or pleasing God by any acts of the human will or the flesh. He was thus driving them and us to utter frustration in trying to play any role in our own salvation. If you recall, His disciples asked, ‘then who can be saved?” What was Jesus reply? It was that it was impossible, meaning by our own desires or effort and that what was impossible for us to accomplish, with God (Him) it was going to be possible, because it could only come by grace, a free gift of God. Yet you and your fellow Catholics are trying to do what is impossible, you think by taking up this cross, by penance, confession, the sacraments, Mariology and a host of other things you are on your way to salvation, that you are playing a role in that salvation and that is why I reject the Roman Catholic Faith and believe it is deceiving millions of souls, it is denying them salvation and Christian living absolutely and wholly as a gift of Grace, these RCC doctrines are wholly contrary to Grace and thus in my opinion – anti-Christ.

            Lastly, I believe by God’s Word I have answered your every question, not finding any of them tough, only too time consuming and in the most part a waste of time, an engaging in vain disputations with no good end. It was ego and a lack of humility on your part to suggest you were so brilliant and had all the answers and too tough questions for us deceived born again believers. We, all of us, me included, must be constantly on guard against such pride and an absence of humility.

          • pax2u

            tu es asinus magnificis

          • Neiman

            How very, very unchristian of you. Yet, I expect nothing better from you.

          • pax2u

            It seems appropriate, maybe you and Gary agree

          • pax2u

            God forbid, Dr. Walter Martin, a Baptist who did not believe that Catholics were part of a cult, no wonder you must disassociate your self from him, or Billy Graham, so you and Gary can embrace the Westboro Baptist Church of Fred Phelps
            I pray for your eternal soul
            I forgive you your hatred of Christians
            you have my pity

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We are in agreement on all of these points.

    • CrossedtheTiber

      You don’t see Mary in the Bible? I’m wondering which version you are reading?

  • Michael Dzieminski

    ROME – In one of the feasts and celebrations marked on the Roman Catholic liturgical calendar leading up to Christmas, Catholics around the world observed the Feast of Immaculate Conception on Monday, a day in which those who follow the religion commemorate their belief that Mary was born without sin.

    The pontiff known as Pope Francis led Catholics in the annual observance of the holiday, delivering an Angelus address in St. Peter’s Square.

    “Oh Mary, our mother, today the people of God in celebration venerates you, the immaculate, preserved from the contagion of sin from the beginning,” he prayed. “Accept the gift I offer on behalf of the church in Rome and throughout the whole world.”

    “In this time that leads us to the feast of the birth of Jesus, teach us to go against the tide,” Francis continued. “The power of God’s love, which has preserved you from original sin, freed all of humanity through your intercession from every spiritual and material slavery and made the designs of God’s salvation victorious within hearts and events.”

    According to the National Catholic Register, he also declared to the crowds gathered that in Mary “there was no room for sin,” because “God had chosen her to be the mother of Jesus,” which resulted in her being preserved from “original sin.”

    The pontiff later venerated the Statue of the Immaculate Conception in Rome’s Piazza di Spagna and invited others to join him. The statue was created in 1857 as a mark of the Roman Catholic belief that Mary was conceived without sin.

    “I ask you to spiritually unite yourselves to me in this pilgrimage, which expresses filial devotion to our heavenly mother,” he said.

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    Francis also visited the Basilica of St. Mary Major, where he venerated the statue known as the Salus Populi Romani.

    The concept of the “immaculate conception” was declared by Pope Pius IX on December 8, 1844, who issued a proclamation stating, “The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

    But some state that the Roman Catholic holiday is unbiblical as there is no Scriptural basis to state that Mary was sinless, which is also noted in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

    “We know from Scripture that Mary must have known she was a sinner who needed a Savior when she said, ‘My spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior’ (Luke 1:47),” Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries told Christian News Network. “The infallible word of God declares that ‘all of sinned and fall short of the glory of God’ (Rom. 3:23). Mary was no exception. God’s word tells us that sin entered the world through Adam, ‘and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ (Rom. 5:12).”

    Gendron

    “The doctrine of Mary’s pure conception without sin is pure heresy,” he continued, adding that Catholic doctrine not only teaches that Mary was sinless, but that she has power to save. “[The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC)] teaches ‘Mary did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.’ (CCC, para. 969). ‘The Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things. In giving birth, you kept your virginity. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.’ (CCC, para. 966).”

    Gendron said that the CCC also instructs that Mary is ” to be praised with special devotion (CCC, para, 971) and that “[s]he was the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race (CCC, para. 494).”

    “The Catholic Church promises that all those who seek Mary’s protection will be saved for all eternity,” he stated.

    Gendron, a former Roman Catholic who now leads a ministry to evangelize Catholics, stated that these teachings are unbiblical as the Scriptures give no veneration to Mary throughout her earthly life.

    “These doctrines have robbed God of His glory and have resulted in Catholics showing greater devotion to Mary than to the Lord Jesus Christ,” he said. “When she appears with the other believers on the day of Pentecost, she’s not an object of worship or even a leader in the early church. There are no occasions of anyone ever praying to her, honoring her or venerating her. She is never mentioned in any presentation of the Gospel.”

    “Jesus Christ alone is our Redeemer, Deliverer, Mediator and Advocate. He alone is to be worshiped, adored, honored and praised now and throughout all eternity!” Gendron declared. “May Catholics comes to their senses through repentance and faith in the only sinless Mediator!”

    • Mark Hamilton

      Then why would God put His Son who is free of sin in an unclean womb? The ark of the covenant of the Old Testament was given the same veneration. Never defiled. But you think God would put His blemish free Son in an unclean vessel. Pathetic !

      • Gary

        Mary was a rotten sinner, just like the rest of humanity.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          No, she wasn’t, Gary. That’s why the Scripture says that “all generations will call [Mary] blessed.” You are violating the Word of God, Gary.

          • Gary

            No, it is YOU and your fellow catholics who are violating the word of God. The Bible does not say mary was sinless. That is a catholic teaching. The only sinless person who ever lived was Jesus Christ.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            You called Our Lady a “rotten sinner,” when Scripture clearly states that we are to call her blessed, always. Your hatred of all things Catholic is blinding you to God’s Truth,
            What sin does the Bible say Mary committed, by the way?
            What about Adam and naming all the animals in 24 hours? What’s your explanation, now that I’ve proven beyond all doubt that he named ALL the animals on the Sixth Day?

          • Gary

            Mary was born with a sinful nature, just like you and I were. She was not perfect, or sinless. Perfect, sinless people have no need of a Redeemer.
            The Bible DOES NOT say Adam named all the animals in 24 hours. Or on the 6th day of the creation week. If Genesis said what you claim, I would agree with what it says.

        • Mark Hamilton

          Because you say so Gary. I think I’ll put my trust and faith in the Roman Catholic Church.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          Please don’t speak about our Mother that way. You wouldn’t appreciate it if I spoke of yours in such vile terms, I would appreciate the same respect given to our own.

          • Gary

            Mary had several children, but you were not one of them. Mary is NOT your mother.

          • pax2u

            so Gary do you reject the Christian Trinity
            God the Father
            God the Son Jesus Christ
            and
            God the Holy Spirit

          • pax2u

            obviously she would never be your Mother, do you honor your mother and father or would that be worship to you?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            She is your Mother, even if you deny her. And she loves you with great tenderness.

  • The Last Trump

    For the love of God, all of my Catholic brothers and sisters, just stop the Mary worship already! Let’s just all agree that Christ is our redeemer and return our undivided attention to where it belongs, shall we? Jesus is the Son of God who lived a sinless life and died a sacrificial death in your place and mine. No one else deserves our praise or adoration. This Mary worship nonsense is going to cost some of you dearly. Enough already.
    Oh, and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all of my fellow Christians! Should be another exciting year of Bible prophecy fulfillment ahead of us. We are so close….

    • Gary

      Why would you call catholics your brother and sisters? If you are a Christian??? then they are not your brothers and sisters.

      • Neiman

        While you and I are in agreement on many issues, I cannot say that no Catholic has never come to Christ by His grace, through faith and so I would not join you in saying none of them can possibly be brothers and sisters in Christ. I agree that it would be very hard for them to get there and still accept Catholic doctrines, but too many have escaped the Roman Catholic Church and served Christ and there is no reason to believe they were not genuinely saved before they left.

        We must in the love of God disagree on this issue.

        • Gary

          When catholics get right with God, they leave the catholic religion. If they are still in Catholicism, they cannot be right with God.

          • Frank

            Yes. 2 John 9-11

          • Neiman

            In God’s own time!

          • Gary

            God’s own time for that is immediately.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m still waiting, Gary.
            How did Adam name all the animals in one, 24-hour day?

          • Neiman

            The Bible does not say he named them all in one day!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, it does, Neiman. Gen.1:1:24-26, 31; 2:19-20.

          • Neiman

            “Genesis One 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind,cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And
            God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” “31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

            Genesis Two: ” 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to everybeast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.”

            There is NOTHING there that said Adam naming them happened on the 6th day at all and nary a word that said Adam named them all on a single day. It only said God created them all, rested from His creation and that at some early point in time God, over how much time it is not stated, He had Adam name them.

            Sorry, you lose – as usual for people like yourself you are reading things into the passages that are not there in reality/

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Yes, it does say that Adam named all the animals, for those who can read the plain text of the Scriptures. See my reply to Gary, above.
            And, didn’t you read into the Law of Moses a provision that doesn’t exist, vis-a-vis the care of parents?

          • Neiman

            NO ONE – get that in your head – NO ONE said or implied that Adam did not name the animals, we only said that scripture does not say he did it on the 6th day nor all in one day. You are deliberately twisting things because you do not have the humility to admit YOUR ERROR.

            No to your second false charge also, I agreed with God commanding children to take care of their parents, I only suggested that does not make it a violation of that law to ask another to do so or for that other party to agree.

          • Gary

            As is typical of catholics, they pretend the Bible says what they want it to say, and ignore what it really says.

          • pax2u

            Gary, have you decided if you worship the Christian Trinity?
            you know
            God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, God the Holy Spirit

            or is that too Catholic for you since the word Trinity is not in the Bible

          • pax2u

            Gary, have you decided if you worship the Christian Trinity of God the Father
            God the Son Jesus Christ
            God the Holy Spirit
            or do you reject it if Catholics accept it as GOD?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I thought that we Catholics didn’t know the Bible, according to Bible-only Christians. Now we pretend what it says? How can that be, if we don’t know what’s in it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I made no error. Did you read the passages I cited and the explanation to Gary. I have a new one, check it out.

            It was a violation of the Law of Moses. And, Christ took the command to take care of one’s parent very seriously. As His rebuke of the Pharisees proves, concerning the abuse of Corban (Mk.7:10-13).
            You’re adding to the Scriptures something that is not there. All you have are your mere assertions, and vitriol, but nothing to back it up, from the Word of God, I’m afraid. Happy New Year!

          • Neiman

            The original statement made to Gary was that Adam named all the animals on the sixth day of creation, all in one day, which was said to be impossible. Gary and I have argued from Scripture that it says nothing about Adam naming them on the 6th day or all in one day. That is what we countered and proved.

            You are unable to reason at all. I agreed with the Law of Moses saying what you stated, I agreed that Jesus said, “10 For Moses said, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But
            ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.”

            This passage in Mark has NOTHING to do with what Jesus did on Calvary, you simply cannot rationally apply it to what Jesus did, nor can you by any stretch of the imagination say that what Jesus did implies He had no brothers or sisters. From the Law of Moses to Mark to Calvary, they are unrelated except by a most evil tradition of the Roman Catholic Church to promote the big lie of Mary being a virgin all her life.

            (a) If Mary is a widow and yet Jesus knew He would be resurrected and had at His disposal all the riches of Heaven to care for his mother, as the eldest “living” son, under the Law of Moses, if it applied, then Jesus did violate the law by Him not taking the responsibility to care for his own mother. So, you are accusing Jesus of sin. Except, (b) Jesus said His Mother and brothers and sisters were not Mary and the flesh and blood siblings only, but all of His disciples, of which his earthly mother and brothers and sisters were only a part. So as he and later the Holy Spirit through Paul teaches, it is the Church, that provides the care for widows and orphans, as well as the flesh and blood relatives. (b) Jesus upon His death brought in a new covenant of Grace, bringing an end to the Law of Moses over His children, so the Law was set aside and would not apply to Him upon His death. (c) Even if He remained under the Law, even if his brothers were responsible under the Law of Moses, there is no sin in asking a dearly loved brother-in-Christ to look after His earthly mother. Your entire argument on several fronts falls apart.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Actually, Gary has argued nothing from the Scriptures, he’s merely asserted that I was wrong. As you have done, also. Except you repeated the verses that I had previously cited.
            Now, are you claiming that Eve was created on the Seventh Day, or, sometime after that? Because, Scripture clearly states that Adam named EVERY animal BEFORE Eve was created (Gen.2:20-22), and, that Eve was created on the Sixth Day with Adam (Gen.1:27, 31).

            Do you even know what law of Corban was? I suggest you study it, maybe you’ll see what I’m trying to explain to you.
            (a) Umm…what? Christ knew He was leaving in 40 days after the Resurrection, so, His mother would need someone to take care of her. (b) That is all speculation on your part. Christ said nothing about “all of His disciples” on the Cross. (b2) “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18* For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19* Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Mt.5:17-19). You are relaxing one of the commandments, Neiman. (c) Says who? You? By what authority do you declare this interpretation true?

            Also, I apologize for any of my “juvenile” responses, from last night. It was late, and I was tired. They sounded funny, at the time, in my head.

          • Gary

            I answered that in another post. But why do you care? You don’t believe Genesis is to be read literally, do you?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, you didn’t, Gary. You kept getting the Bible wrong, remember?
            I don’t believe that God had to create the universe in 6 24-days. He could have, or, He could have done it 6 seconds. That’s not the point of Genesis 1-3. And, there are other plausible explanations for the 6 Days.
            But, you said that you do believe that it was six 24-hour days. So, answer my question about Adam naming the animals, if you can?

          • Gary

            Adam named the animals, but Genesis does not say he named them on day six of the creation week. There are not other plausible explanations for the six days. Genesis clearly says God created everything in six days. The Ten Commandments, in Exodus chapter 20:11 comfirms it.

          • Neiman

            So does Jesus!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Really? Do I have to spell it out for you, Gary?

            24 And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.”
            26* Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”
            27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
            31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

            19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
            20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him.
            21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh;
            22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.

            So, Eve was created AFTER Adam named ALL the animals (2:20), but, Eve was created on the Sixth Day (1:27, 31). Your Bible lesson for today is over.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            Here is where I proved, from the Sacred Scriptures, that Adam named all the animals on the Sixth Day, before Eve was created. This is irrefutable.
            Of course Our Lady needed a Savior, to save her from the stain of original sin. By a singular grace from God, Mary was preserved from sinning because sin and the power of God cannot exist together. Now, please show me what sin the Bible says Mary committed? Or, are you just imagining that she sinned?

          • Gary

            You did not prove any such thing. Genesis says Adam named the animals. It DOES NOT say when he did it.
            There is no evidence in the Bible that Mary, the mother of Jesus was “preserved from sinning”. If she never sinned, then she never needed a Savior. Only sinners need Christ.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary, Gary, Gary…Even after I spelled it out for you, you still don’t get it?
            Adam named every animal BEFORE God created Eve from his rib (Gen.2:20-22). Eve was created on the Sixth Day with Adam (Gen.1:27). Why is this so hard to comprehend?

          • Gary

            If you are correct, what is your point? What are you trying to prove? What does it matter if Adam named all the animals on Day 6 of the creation week?

          • pax2u

            Gary, do you reject the Christian Trinity?

          • Gary

            I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

          • pax2u

            as God?

          • pax2u

            as your buddy Neiman would say the Devil believes in the Bible also
            but is the Trinity GOD?

          • pax2u

            If the Catholic Church worships the Christian Trinity of God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit
            are you required to reject the Christian Trinity or are you then agreeing with the Catholic Church, which is worse to you?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            If I’m correct? How can you deny it, at this point, Gary? It’s the plain reading/meaning of the Word of God.
            It matters, as per my original question to you, how did Adam name EVERY animal in 24 hours? It’s not possible.

            To the bigger question, doesn’t this show that something more is going on in Genesis 1, rather than a report on the exact number of days it took God to create the universe? You are missing what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you by clinging to your literal interpretation of these passages of Sacred Scripture.
            God Bless!

          • Gary

            Why didn’t you just say you don’t believe Genesis at the start? You also don’t believe Exodus, since the six day creation is repeated there (Exodus 20:11) and that is a direct quote from God. If you don’t believe Genesis or Exodus, you don’t believe any of the rest of the Bible. And that is not a surprise.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            You are obfuscating. I believe Genesis & Exodus (and the rest of the Bible). On what are you basing this bogus assertion?
            Now, how did Adam name all of the animals in 24 hours?

          • Gary

            I will answer your question when you answer this one: Did God create the universe, and life on earth, in six, 24 hour days?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Gary,
            I used to think so. But, now, I find it highly unlikely.
            First, based on Scripture, cf. Psalm 90[89]:4; 2 Peter 3:8. Then based on the fact that that the Hebrew word for “day”, yom, in Genesis does not necessarily mean a 24 hour day. It can mean age or era.
            There are other explanations that I’ve encountered, but, it would take too long to go over them, here.
            Okay, your turn.

          • Gary

            The Bible is very clear that the creation week was six regular days (evening and morning). They were not long periods of time. If it had taken longer periods of time, God would have told us that. If Adam named all the animals on day six, I don’t see that as a problem.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You promised to answer my question, Gary, remember?
            I asked how did Adam name every animal in 24 hours? I’ve also told you to do the math, that it’s impossible.
            Since you refuse, here you go: At 6 seconds per animal (10 per [Edit: minute]) that’s only 14,400 in 24 hours. It was not possible.
            How do you know that the earth rotated at the same speed at creation as it does now? Do you deny the Scriptures, that a day is like a thousand years to God?
            Did God explain electricity or bacteria in Genesis? Do you deny that they exist?

          • Gary

            So you are saying that a day, with an evening and a morning, is actually one thousand years in length?
            How many kinds of animals were there? Dogs, cats, elephants, camels. That is four. How many kinds of animals did Adam have to name?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m saying that it could have been, to God. Are you saying that Psalm 90 and 2 Peter were wrong?
            How many? More than 14,400. Look it up.

          • Gary

            I believe, based on Genesis and Exodus, and the Gospels, that it was six, regular days.
            I don’t know what the number was. And neither do you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, you reject Psalm 90 & 2 Peter, Gary? Why?
            Plus, you are actually claiming that there are less than 15 thousand kinds of animals in the world? Really?

            May I assume that you concede that you were wrong about Adam naming ALL the animals on the Sixth Day, and, that the Catholic was right?

          • Gary

            I don’t reject anything found in the Bible. Yes, there are less than 15,000 kinds of animals in the world. If you care to prove me wrong, then list them. No, I am not conceding anything to you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, you do accept that a day is like a thousand years to God? What does that do to your “a day in Genesis 1 is a 24-hour period of time” theory?
            I can’t tell you how many “kinds” because we don’t know what “kinds” means. But, there are close to a million recorded species of animals in the world.
            You seem to have missed the point. SIX SECONDS PER ANIMAL. Plus, God had to do all the other work of the Sixth Day. And, all the animals had to come to Adam.

            How can you deny that Adam had to name them all on the Sixth day? This is called invincible ignorance, ya’ know?

          • pax2u

            was that day light savings time?

          • Neiman

            Gary, see how he is twisting God’s Word? He first insists the Bible says that Adam named them all on the 6th day, we proved from Scripture that God did not say that, he lost the argument, right? No, now he twists it to say that if Adam did not do it all on the 6th day, which the Bible does not state at all, then that means a “day” means an indeterminate period of time In Genesis One and evolution was the means of creation. My good Lord, it is amazing how deceived this person is and how he twists God’s Word to testify against God’s Word.

          • Gary

            Well, if he is trying to prove evolution from the Bible, he has chosen a mountain he cannot climb.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            How did you prove it from Scripture, when I provided the verses?
            I didn’t mention evolution, at all. You seeing things that aren’t there. I don’t believe in materialistic, Darwinian evolution.

          • Mark Hamilton

            So which of the 30,000 different protestant sects is correct? Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, Calvanism? They believe that bishops can be homosexuals. Just what did the early church do for the first 100 years? Without the Gospels? After all it took 100 years before the scribes could jot it all down. Yes? TRADITION. “Do this in remembrance of Me”. The Holy Mass. Protestantism BROKE from real Christianity in the 15 century. It has been fractured and mangled ever since. Sola scriptura and all. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY SCRIPTURE ALONE !!!

          • Gary

            You just keep worshipping mary and the pope. When you die, you will quickly learn what a fool you have been. LOL!

          • pax2u

            where in the Catholic Creeds is Mary worshiped as God?

          • Gary

            You catholics don’t worship mary “as God”, do you?

          • pax2u

            that is correct we do not,
            we worship the Christian Trinity of God, the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit,
            do you worship the Christian Trinity?

          • Gary

            I do worship God. I also know that Mary was a not sinless. Jesus Christ is the only sinless person who ever lived.

          • pax2u

            do you worship the Christian Trinity?

          • pax2u

            Gary, do you even understand the concept of the Christian Trinity?

          • Gary

            Yes, I do.

          • pax2u

            glad to know that you understand the concept
            now do you worship the Christian Trinity? or is it too Catholic for you

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            I thought I stated early today that was sure these guys were plants put their to cause trouble between the catholic religion and whoever they chose. And I see they are doing a good job. If we were smart we would cut them off at the pass. evidently on one else can see what going on but me again. If you haven’t figured out that they know very little about religion. Then you should know now. Do not argue with tem they are here to cause trouble. I would stop communicating with them please.

          • pax2u

            really, you may be correct,
            maybe they playing the part of the crazy intolerant bigot, to make Christians look bad.
            if they are, they are playing the role rather well

            but I must defend my faith and show others what Catholics REALLY believe not what some hateful bigot says a Catholic believes

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Hi, I don’t think it is so much saying what we believe as it is showing how they believe and how horribly nasty they really are. You see I still go with the plants. If you pay attention too what they are saying you will see what I am talking about. Maybe when SATCitizen is back he can clarify what I am trying to tell you.

          • pax2u

            maybe they are just anti Christian plants trying to make Christians appear insane and filled with hatred, it is hard to image a sane person who loves Jesus Christ being so filled with evil and hatred, I pray that you are correct, because if you are not correct evil really does walk the world

          • pax2u

            I asked Gary if he denied the Christian Trinity and received this wisdom

            Gary pax2u•23 minutes ago

            You stinking, rotten, filthy, non-Christian catholics dishonor Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost with every breath you take.

          • Mark Hamilton

            Lol. Quite an argument. You are showing your age and ignorance. You slander the Lord with your notion that God would put His Son in an unclean human. The Tabernacle of the Lord, Mary most holy. Even the angel Gabriel said as much. Full of Grace. Not half full. But FULL of Grace.

          • Gary

            You are a heretic, at best. And I think you are actually much worse than that.

          • Mark Hamilton

            Heresy is reserved for those who reject dogmas of the church. St. Thomas defines it very well. http://Www.newadvent.com. By the way St. Thomas is a catholic

          • pax2u

            poor sad gary, he is confused by the difference between to honor and to worship
            I suppose he can not honor his mother and father as the commandment states in case he might be worshiping them

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Boy are you a sick person!
            how do I know this? Because no one in their right mind would make a stupid remark like that to any one and expect them to treat you like human being.

        • pax2u

          his posts are useful to show Catholics the hatred that exists against their faith

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Pax2u,
            Or, his posts are an opportunity for you to pray for him and wish him well, eh?

          • pax2u

            He is serving a purpose
            I wish you well

      • Spoob

        Catholics don’t answer to you Gary. They answer to God.

        • Gary

          They certainly do. That is your problem.

          • Mark Hamilton

            Hail gary. Hosanna gary.

          • Spoob

            It’s your problem, because you haven’t yet figured out you’re note God.

          • Mark Hamilton

            He hasn’t a church to figure out scripture either.

          • pax2u

            Gary does have a Church

            It is the Westboro Baptist Church of Fred Phelps
            must be a slow day today, no funerals of Soldiers who died for America to protest today

          • Gary

            As I have told you several times, I am not a member of Westboro Baptist Church. But I would much rather be a member there than to be lost in the catholic religion.

          • pax2u

            I understand you connection to the Westboro Baptist Church

          • Gary

            I have no connection to Westboro. I have never met any of their members. I do agree with some of what they believe, including that homosexuality is condemned by God, and the US government is under God’s judgment for promoting homosexuality and abortion.

      • ELAINE MARZANO

        listen , please tell me its oK for black people to call each other brother it is a term they use. They know it is not real. So why would that not apply to Catholics that you are making a real problem when their is no problem!! I for one am tired of reading your garbage.

        • Gary

          In the New Testament, Christians are said to be brothers and sisters. Non-Christians do not qualify. If you are tired of reading what I write, then stop reading it.

          • pax2u

            Titus 2:11 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

          • Gary

            John 3:36

          • ELAINE MARZANO

            Thats funny I thought I did that 2 hrs ago. in act I think I made my divorce final.

    • pax2u

      For the Love of Almighty God, will the anti Catholics just stop lying and sinning against Christians.
      where in the Catholic Creeds, official Theology, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church is Mary worshiped as God?
      and an anti Catholic hate web site or a Jack Chick hate comic book is not official Catholic Theology

      it will make you feel better to stop lying about Christians
      Merry Christmass

      • The Last Trump

        “It’s just a manifestation of idolatry,” he said. “The Roman Catholic Church has elevated Mary to a goddess. … They’ve even said that she participated in the atonement.”

        “Catholics place undo emphasis on Mary and give her glories reserved only for God,” also noted Robert Thomas of Ex-Catholic Baptist. “Any undo exaltation of Mary is repulsive to a true Bible believing Christian who desires to see the Lord Jesus Christ alone exalted. … The Scriptures clearly teach that Mary was a sinner and therefore needed a Savior, [but under] Pius XII, Catholics are required to believe under the pain of mortal sin that Mary was crowned Queen of Heaven and Queen of the Universe. … [W]here is the Scriptural proof for that?”

        Forgive me if my defense of the gospel has confused you in some way. Where is the lie exactly? Are you actually claiming as a self professed Catholic that your Church does NOT magnify Mary to the extant indicated in this article?

        Nice to hear from you, by the way. Hope Christmas was good! (Notice the “Christ”mas part. Not “Mary”mas! Just sayin..;)

        • pax2u

          so you reference an ex Catholic Baptist to support the lie that Catholics Worship Mary?

          not exactly from the Creed of the Catholic Church, I am disappointed by your scholarship

          Mary was with Jesus from birth until his death, or am I lying now?

          The Catholic Church HONORS Mary as the Mother who gave birth to Jesus Christ, as Jesus would keep the Commandment to Honor his Mother, do you no longer keep the commandment to honor your mother and father?

          It is sad when “christians” lie about the beliefs of others

          lying about the beliefs of Christians is not a defense of the Gospel of God, but it is a sin against God

          but that is your issue not mine

          Some are iconoclasts who hate the Nativity Scenes in the Town square less it be considered idolotry

          I did have a very nice Christmass, our service even mentioned the Birth of Jesus Christ

          As Catholics we even read from the BIBLE! I know you do not believe that is possible

          Gospel Lk 2:1-14

          In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus
          that the whole world should be enrolled.
          This was the first enrollment,
          when Quirinius was governor of Syria.
          So all went to be enrolled, each to his own town.
          And Joseph too went up from Galilee from the town of Nazareth
          to Judea, to the city of David that is called Bethlehem,
          because he was of the house and family of David,
          to be enrolled with Mary, his betrothed, who was with child.
          While they were there,
          the time came for her to have her child,
          and she gave birth to her firstborn son.
          She wrapped him in swaddling clothes and laid him in a manger,
          because there was no room for them in the inn.

          and look the Gospel mentions Mary giving birth to Jesus,
          I am sorry if you are confused that I defend the Gospel of the Lord

          • The Last Trump

            “The Catholic Church HONORS Mary as the Mother who gave birth to Jesus Christ, as Jesus would keep the Commandment to Honor his Mother, do you no longer keep the commandment to honor your mother and father?”
            So you admit that the Catholic Church has decided to make it a point to “honour” Mary, do you? Could you please detail for us just how they go about “honouring” her? Or where Jesus said anything, absolutely anything about His desire for us to honour His mother specifically above all others?
            It’s no secret that the Catholic Church has put waaaaaaay too much emphasis on the importance of Mary. And it’s very well documented. I don’t see anything about where anybody has lied about it, do you? However, it does appear that some folks are in denial about it….
            Like I said before, if we keep our focus on Christ we can stand united as “Christians”. I will never belong to a church of Mary. And neither should you. If you ever find your Church asking you to pray “Hail Mary, full of grace…” then you are clearly in an apostate Church.
            No lying here. Only hoping that you be careful about your salvation. If I belonged to a Church that had me doing questionable practices, I would hope my brothers and sisters in Christ would love me enough to take the time to care enough to simply warn me to be careful.
            Peace my friend.

          • pax2u

            I honor the American Flag but I do not worship the American Flag, I honor soldiers who fight for America but I do not worship American soldiers

          • The Last Trump

            Sorry, Pax. But I guess we’ll just have to respectfully disagree. And I don’t doubt that YOU don’t worship Mary as you have pointed out. But it does appear that the church you belong to does. And that’s not based on my opinion. That’s based on your church’s history, it’s own claims about Mary and the hundreds of articles, like this one, that speak to this reality. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t good Catholics who love the Lord and will, God willing, go to Heaven. But anybody who gets sucked in to this idolatry and grossly inappropriate Mary worship deception puts there salvation at risk.

            Yes, I honour my mother. But I sure as hell don’t pray to her or refer to her as the Queen of Heaven! Do you?!

            Why don’t we just look to Jesus for the answer regarding this unholy veneration of a human female, shall we?

            “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”

            Here Jesus is presented (by someone attempting to engage in Mary adoration) with a fantastic opportunity to reveal to us just exactly the manner in which we should view His mother. So how does He reply to this attempt to elevate the status of His mother?

            “He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28.

            Wow. He completely avoids any attempt to honour His mother and, instead, focuses our attention to where it should be. On God, and God alone. What a crystal clear opportunity for Jesus to instruct us to honour and pray to His mother if this was what He wished for us to do. As you can see, He doesn’t mention her AT ALL.

            And then there was that opportunity to speak about the uniqueness and special status of His mother when He was told,

            “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.” But once again Jesus directs attention AWAY from Mary as He responds, “My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.”
            Unbelievable. Two fantastic opportunities served up to Him to show us how He would like us to view His mother and He absolutely ignores her both times and places our attention on GOD ALONE.
            Pax, the Roman Catholic Church has done a lot of great things throughout history. But they’ve done a lot of things wrong as well. Don’t take it personally my friend. Every church and denomination makes its share of mistakes, as they are governed by men. Don’t allow any church, Roman Catholic or otherwise, to talk you into doing something the Bible clearly tells us not to do. As always, the Bible is our source, not any church or denomination. Protestants, Baptists and the like have their own apostate issues, such as the acceptance to homosexuality which the Bible clearly does not condone. Every church today is struggling with remaining faithful to the Word of God. Not just the Catholic Church. Other Christians on this site are just trying to warn you to be careful and not be blinded by denominational loyalty.
            Jesus spoke at length about the ruling church of His day, did He not? And His words were pretty harsh to say the least! He made it very clear that Church leaders regularly deceive the faithful into following the traditions of men and abandoning the teachings of God. I will not allow myself to be deceived by any church and I pray the same for you. But anybody foolish enough not to heed our Saviour’s warning about religious institutions will get what they deserve I guess.
            Take care! 😉

          • pax2u

            I agree I believe in words, as in Honor and Worship and lying which is a sin against God and I forgive you

          • pax2u

            please answer me a simple question,
            why is it that those who are willing to will fully speak a false hood, (a lie) regarding the Catholic Church, such as that Catholics worship as God either Mary or the Pope, which is not found in any Catholic Creed, Doctrine or in the Catholic Catechism
            why do they never admit to being apart of any Christian Church or denomination?
            actually it is best that this lunatic fringe which is filled with hatred of Christians never belongs to any Church
            and for that I am thankful to my Personal Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, amen

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Catholics do not worship Mary. Would someone be justified in claiming that many Protestants worship singers and band members? When a person walks in to many of the Protestant churches, they see people kneeling and raising their hands toward the people on the stage. Should they then assume that all of those people in the congregation are worshiping the people that are on the stage? Would this seem right and logical? Of course not. In the same way, people outside of the Catholic Church, who do not understand Catholic beliefs, make accusations based only on what they observe from the outside without ever finding out what Catholics actually believe and practice.

      • The Last Trump

        Wrong. Prayers to Mary = wrong. I don’t know anybody who prays to other people, except Catholics. She is not, nor ever shall be “The Queen of Heaven”. Nor has she redeemed anybody.
        The Catholic Church has Mary issues. Not my opinion. Documented fact. And regardless of whether one is Catholic or not all Christians should speak out about any “church” practices that are un-Biblical. And most particularly when those practices fly in the face of actual doctrine. Shame on you for defending it and pretending that this is not the case.

        • pax2u

          Please pray FOR me as i will pray FOR you, but i am not praying TO you
          have you never ever prayed for someone else?

        • CrossedtheTiber

          I can understand the confusion over the term “pray.” As a Protestant I always thought that pray always = worship. However, when we look at the Old English version of the word we see people praying to each other all the time because praying simply showed that they were making a request. “I pray you tell me…” Catholics, since we come from a very old church, (2000 years in 2033) use older language. So when we ‘pray’ to Our Blessed Mother and the Saints we are simply asking them to pray to God for us, just as we would ask any of our Christian brothers and sisters to pray to God for us.

          Revelations 12 describes Mary as wearing a crown of 12 stars, showing us that she is the ‘Queen of Heaven.’ Also, Jesus is from the line of David through Joseph. In Davidic time, the Queen was always the mother of the King. Therefore, since Jesus is the King, Mary is the Queen.

          In terms of our redemption coming through Mary: Jesus is our Redeemer and He literally came to us through Mary, through her body.

          I was wondering if you could explain what you meant by “Mary issues?”

        • pax2u

          I ask you to Pray FOR me, not TO me, sorry but you are not God
          where are the official documented Catholic Creeds, or Catechism of the Catholic Church that STATES that Mary is worshiped
          Because only God is Worshiped
          and hate sites or a Jack Chick hate comic book is not Catholic Doctrine, as much as those you lie and hate the Catholic Church wish it to be
          you will feel better when you do not lie about Christians
          have a nice day

      • pax2u

        It is sad that the anti Catholics ignore words they refuse to understand the difference between to Honor and to Worship
        They also refuse to understand the difference between asking someone to pray FOR them, and praying TO someone
        I suppost they can not HONOR there Mother and Father, rejecting the commandment of God, less they would be seen to be worshiping their Mother and Father.
        and I suppose that they NEVER prayed for someone else, or asked anyone else to pray FOR them, which is not praying TO them

  • Truth Lives

    Here are a few instances of how the catholic denomination disobeys and blasphemes God and His Word. If they can’t be trusted on the most obvious of things the bible says, you can’t trust them for anything about God and His Word. Which of course is why they lift Mary up to be worshiped, prayed to, and a co-redeemer when none of it should happen.

    (1) Infant baptism is nowhere in the Bible. Water does not save – we are baptized by water after we believe as our first step of obedience and identifying with Christ, which proves infant baptism is unbiblical and saves no one.

    Acts 8:36-37 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest [be baptized]. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    If sprinkling an infant with water saves, then repentance does not, faith in Christ does not, in fact you don’t even have to want to be saved to be saved: just someone else sprinkling you with water saves you. Instead of going about preaching the gospel, you should go around with a spray bottle and save others without their knowledge or their consent by spraying them. Behold the anit-Christ doctrine of infant baptism.

    (2) We are not to call anyone our spiritual father, yet the cc teaches to not only call priest your spiritual Father, but give them the title Father.

    Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    (3) We are not saved by catechisms or works of any kind. We are saved by the grace of God alone.

    Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    (4) We are not to create carved idols or statues of anything in heaven, or under the earth. But the cc has deleted that commandment and split “thou shalt not covet” into “thou shalt not covet this..” and “thou shalt not covet that..” to keep the count at 10 so that people will not notice they deleted the Commandment not to create graven/carved statues. And they have carved statues of angels and supposed saints of old all over the place that some do in fact pray to and worship.

    Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven [carved] image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

    (5) We are to pray to God alone through Jesus Christ. We are not to pray to supposed saints of old as if they are omniscient and can hear everyone’s prayers at any time anywhere in the world.

    1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    (6) We are not to worship Mary, let alone as if she was immaculately conceived. She was in need of a savior as much as anyone else – she just found favor in the sight of God as have others – and were all sinners. Even Mary recognized she needed a savior:

    Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, (47) And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    (7) They re-sacrifice/re-offer/re-present Lord’s sacrifice at every mass thousands of time every day around the world.

    Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he [Jesus] did once, when he offered up himself.

    Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    There is so much more the cc violates the Word of God on – this is just a sampling.

    I am nothing – I can’t convince anyone of anything – I’m just as deserving of the judgment of God as anyone. Please look into these things for yourself, people.

    May God / Jesus Christ be glorified!

    • CrossedtheTiber

      1. God brought infants into the Jewish family through circumcision. Why would He then exclude infants and young children from the Christian family? Children, and likely infants, were baptized in Acts 16:33. On your point that water does not save. You are partially correct. Simply getting in your bath and taking a bath does not save. However, we must be born again by water and by spirit. 1 Peter 3:21 is very clear. Also, Jesus was very clear on baptism in His Great Commission.

      2. If you were to strictly adhere to Jesus’s words in this passage than you must not use the word ‘teacher’ or ‘doctor’ or ‘Mr.’ or ‘Mrs.’ Also, we see throughout the New Testament that the apostles refer to ‘Father Abraham’ or ‘Father Isaac’ and refer to themselves as ‘Father.’ (Acts 7:2, Romans 9:10, 1 Tim 1:2, 1 Cor 4:14-15 and if you need more examples I’m happy to provide them.)

      3. Catholics agree. We are saved by Grace alone.

      4. If you were to count up all of the “thou shalts” then you will realize that there are 13 commandments. On the issue of statues: just a few chapters later God commanded the people to create statues of heavenly things Ex 25:17-19. Why would we be forbidden from ever creating statues if He commanded it? Of course, we do not worship statues. They are simply a reminder for us of all of the wonderful things that God has done. Back to the 10 Commandments – this article explains it better than I can: http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/did-the-catholic-church-change-the-ten-commandments
      Additionally, I find it fascinating that you accuse the Catholic Church of changing the 10 Commandments (which we didn’t) but you are completely fine with people removing large portions of the Bible. This seems contrary in my mind. I wonder why it doesn’t upset you that the Bible you are reading has only 66 books rather than the 73 books that are in the original Christian Bible?

      5. We agree that Jesus is our only Mediator. We ask the Saints to pray for us because they are alive in Christ and part of the Body of Christ. Rev. 5:8 shows us that they are praying for us. They pray to God on our behalf. It’s no different than asking people on earth to pray for us.

      6. We do not worship Mary. Mary was full of Grace. Luke 1:28 The word used in this passage showed that she had always been full of Grace. Mary was saved from sin through her son Jesus Christ when she was conceived in her own mother’s womb. Mary is the first one to be saved by Grace through her son Jesus, she was the first one who was full of the Holy Spirit, and she is the first Christian. She is also the mother of my Lord. I am the Bride of Christ. Jesus is my Bride Groom. I love the mother of my earthly husband and take his mother as my own. I love Jesus, my Bride Groom, and take His Mother as my own.

      7. We participate in the Holy Eucharist because Jesus told is to. John 6. Jesus is not being ‘re-Crucified,’ rather it is His glorified Body being offered up for us in Holy Communion. 1 Cor 11:17-33 talks about this. Of course, you might be quick to point out the part where he says “Do this in memory of me” but when you look at verse 27 you see that if you eat the bread and drink of the cup in an unworthy manner you are sinning against the body and blood of our Lord. He is very clear that the bread and wine is the actual body and blood of our Lord and not just a symbol.

      On your last point: nothing in the dogma or doctrine of the Catholic Church is contrary to Scripture.

      • Truth Lives

        Hello.

        1 And yet it’s clear God destroyed many Jewish people who WERE circumcized. Circumcision no more saves than having water sprinkled on you against your will. It was a sign back then that they were God’s chosen nation. And those God clearly saved were thus circumcized as well AFTER THE FACT.

        2 Calling someone your “Father” who’s not your biological dad is calling them your spiritual master and we are not to call anyone any such thing.

        By contrast people are teachers by trade, doctors by trade – calling someone your father who is not is not a trade. This is a blatant mockery of what Christ said and what’s almost sad (and condemns people) is many are so blind they refuse to see they’re being forced to do what Christ said not to – it’s almost exposing their unsaved state as they clearly do not “hear” what Christ said.

        3 Then why tell the Priest “may the Lord accept the SACRIFICE by your hands…” – thought we were already saved by grace? Thought Christ was the final sacrifice?

        4 God telling his Prophets on specific times to create a cheribum does not mean we should go around ignoring the fact that He told us not to create graven images.

        Why do you think we can disobey God on this matter and have statues of Mary all over the place?

        And no, do not covet is one commandment – not do not covet this, do not covet that, etc.

        5 Are dead people omnipresent? You can ask people to pray for you, but to get on your knees and ask someone to pray for you, someone who’s not anywhere within earshot, is worshiping that person and making them a mediator. Christ is the mediator – pray to Him. Stick to people you can walk up to to ask to pray for you – not on your knees in prayer to ask them to pray for you.

        6 They have a prayer about Mary. They have a mass about Mary. They claim She was immaculately conceived just like Jesus was which is a flat out lie. They claim she was born w/out sin, which was a lie. They claim she’s a co-redeemer, which is a lie. We don’t take anyone else as our own but Christ.

        6a They have nothing BUT formula prayers. Vain repetition. Repeated countless times word for word.

        Matthew 6:7 “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

        To just repeat repetitious prayers word for word proves one is a heathen.

        7 We eat bread and wine in REMEMBRANCE of Him – not as some sort of supernatural rite that turns it into Christ Himself. Now if doing it in MEMORY of Him is even done in an unworthy manner, this is what you refer to.

        Please point to where it says people will be given the supernatural power to turn bread into Christ and we are to literally eat Christ.

        Jesus pointed out a few verses later He was not talking literally to eat His flesh – that eating His flesh does not profit.

        John 6:61-63 “When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

        The list goes on, friend. We shouldn’t try hard to justify a church’s doctrines – only to justify God’s Word.

        Another is Ash Wednesday: put ash on your forehead to show everyone else how spiritual you are.

        Matthew 6:1-4 “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.”

        Same with prayer.

        There are some individuals who are saved that go to a catholic church, as it’s genuine faith in Christ alone that saves, believing on Him as the only begotten son of God – but they will come out of that church if they read the Bible, as they’ll hear God’s truth and realize the catholic denomination is contrary to it in countless ways.

        The catholic church use to_kill those who read the Bible for themselves. They have MUCH blood on their hands. Revelations speaks of the “catholic church”, calling it “her”, commanding us to come out of “her”.

        Revelation 18:2-6 “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.”

        I’m nothing and as deserving of_Hell as anyone – it’s only by God’s grace I’m saved. Please think on these things. Thank you for your time.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          1. Can you please clarify your argument? Also, how does this apply to the baptism of children (including infants) in Acts 16:33? Additionally, do you mean to imply that circumcision had nothing to do with Jewish faith?

          2. Jesus makes no distinction between biological or spiritual fathers in this text. He additionally says that we should not call anyone master (Mr. or Mrs. are a derivation of this term) or teacher. Why do you get to pick and choose? Or could it be that you have a misunderstanding of the context of this passage because we clearly see that Jesus’s own apostles refer to themselves as spiritual fathers. Therefore it is impossible that Jesus was condemning the use of the word ‘father’ in all spiritual contexts

          3. I appreciate the point you brought up here because you are helping me to understand my own faith better. Thank you. Fr. Vincent Sherpa answered this much better than I could: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/at-mass-why-do-we-pray-in-the-third-person-instead-of-addressing-our-pleas-and-praise

          4. The key word is ‘graven.’ Because we see God command his people to create statues we understand through the context of Scripture that we are not to create an image and then worship it. Catholics only worship God.

          5. Those who are alive in heaven are able to hear our prayers through God enabling them to hear our prayers. Remember, they exist outside of time. The actual workings of the intercession of the Saints is a wonderful mystery of God.

          6. I am the Bride of Christ. Jesus is my Bride Groom. I take His Mother as my own because I love Jesus. Mary was conceived without sin so as to prepare a place for Jesus who is God, to dwell in order to come to earth as a Baby. Studying the Ark of the Old Covenant is helpful in understanding Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

          6b. Jesus taught us to pray repetitively. The angels in Heaven pray repetitively. Perhaps the key word here is ‘vain’ repetition. I am able to pray however I want. I prefer to recite prayers because I end up praying for things I may not have thought of. As a Protestant, a lot of my prayers WERE vain repetition because I would run out of things to pray and just find myself sort of praying the same things over and over without a lot of meaning behind it. Now, as a Catholic, I love to recite prayers because they not only align my heart more closely to the heart of Jesus, but they enable me to pray more fruitfully.

          7. The words Jesus spoke (that were spirit and life) were to eat His flesh and drink His blood. I don’t know how He could have been more clear, especially when you look at John 6:53 “Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

          On your claim that the Church killed people for reading the Bible for themselves. The Church did not kill anyone. They did hand heretics over to the Government for trial and at times death. The Church will take full responsibility for any wrong-doing that has been committed. The heretics were seen as murderers of people’s souls because they led people away from the Truth and were putting people at risk of eternal damnation. Though it is not true that the Church killed people for reading the Bible for themselves, it IS true that the Church condemns the concept of ‘sola scriptura’ (or interpreting the Bible for oneself) because this is not a Biblical concept. The people of the Church have done horrible things. However, should we deny Jesus because of the crimes of Judas?

          This passage in Revelations is not referring to the Catholic Church.

          • Gary

            Acts 16:33 says nothing about the baptism of children who are too young to be believers.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Who do you think lived in his home? Just adults?

          • Gary

            The verse does not say. Then why are you making assumptions?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The word “household” is a pretty clear statement that there were children present. Otherwise it would have simply said “he and his wife were baptized.”

          • Gary

            There may have been children. But if there were, they were old enough to be believers. Infant baptism is not taught in the New Testament.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            How can you make that assumption?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I see what you did there, CrossedtheTibe, you sneaky bugger!

          • CrossedtheTiber

            *ssshhh* 😉

          • Neiman

            What he did was fail miserably!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Who? Gary? Yes, he did fail miserably. Did you not follow the exchange?

            Gary: The verse does not say. Then why are you making assumptions?
            Gary: There may have been children. But if there were, they were old enough to be believers.
            CrossedtheTiber: How can you make that assumption?

            This is a case of heads I win, tails you lose. You’ve done the same thing, in our give-and-takes.

          • Neiman

            You know that is not who I was accusing of failing, so you were dishonest!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Try dealing with the exchange between Gary & CrossedtheTiber, please? How didn’t Gary fail?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You said ‘he’ failed. I am a ‘she.’ Therefore it is reasonable to assume that you were talking about Gary.

          • Gary

            The scripture does not say there were little children. And the New Testament teaches that baptism is for believers. Infants and small children are not believers.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The Scripture also does not say that there weren’t little children. Why should infants and children be excluded from God’s family? Matthew 19:14

          • Gary

            I never said children were excluded. I said baptism is meant for people who have believed on Christ and become Christians. IT DOES NOT APPLY TO ANYONE ELSE. And, you cannot prove that it does.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Acts 2:38-39 is clear that this is a Sacrament meant for adults and children (which obviously includes infants). Additionally, we see that baptism replaces circumcision – which was a rite down on infants. Col 2: 11-12.

          • Gary

            There is nothing in the New Testament that says infants or small children should be baptized. Or that anyone should be baptized unless they become a believer in Christ. Once again your catholic religion contradicts the Bible.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Paul was referring to our children in Acts 2:38-39. When I have a baby, that baby is my child, though it is an infant.

          • Gary

            If your children get old enough to understand the Gospel, and understand they are sinners in need of salvation, then, if they are willing, they can repent of their sins and believe on Christ. AFTER that, they can be baptized as a symbol of their new birth. Baptizing infants and small children only gets them wet. It does nothing at all for their souls.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Why do you add to the Scriptures? It clearly refers to our children (which become our children at birth)
            1 Peter 3:21 – Baptism now saves you.

          • Gary

            Jesus was baptized, but he needed no salvation. Where in the NT does it record the baptism of the 12 apostles? I would like to read about that. Was Judas baptized? If he was it didn’t keep him out of Hell.

          • pax2u

            Garypax2u39 minutes ago

            You stinking, rotten, filthy, non-Christian catholics dishonor Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost with every breath you take.

          • Gary

            That was me being nice. You catholics claim to know God, but your doctrine proves you are liars.

          • pax2u

            do you harm anyone, your rage is sad, I hope you do not have a gun, or children

          • pax2u

            seek mental health care

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Oh dear… We must pray hard.

          • pax2u

            I pray that he does not have children or a gun, so much rage

          • pax2u

            Gary have you decided if you worship the Christian Trinity yet?
            do you need more time?

          • Gary

            Ask me again in 25 years.

          • pax2u

            so you deny the Christian Trinity of God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit
            no wonder you hate the Catholic Church

          • Gary

            You stinking, rotten, filthy, non-Christian catholics dishonor Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost with every breath you take.

          • pax2u

            may God forgive you and I understand why you deny the Christian Trinity

          • Gary

            God has ALREADY forgiven me of everything I have ever done wrong, or ever will do wrong. But, God has forgiven you for NOTHING. You are still under the condemnation of ALL of your sins, past, present, and future.

          • pax2u

            you hatred is consuming your sad soul gary
            I forgive you your hatred and please do not harm anyone with your rage

          • pax2u

            so gary are you now a Once Saved Always Saved?

          • Gary

            Have always been.

          • pax2u

            then you believe that you are free to murder children and you will go to heaven
            I pray that you do not have children or a gun, may God have mercy on your soul

          • Gary

            Nobody is free to murder anyone. Which you would know if you were a Christian.

          • pax2u

            so now that you are Once Saved Always Saved you no longer sin?

        • Neiman

          If water baptism is required for salvation, the Jesus lied to the good thief when He promised He would be with Him in Paradise that very day – as the good thief was not baptized.

          Oh they will say this was special. Oh yeah, where do we find such a special excuse for one person to be saved without baptism. What of Paul saying he baptized no one, then modified to say oh yes a few. If it was necessary for salvation then Paul was a heretic and hated those people he led to salvation, but did not instantly baptize. If it is necessary for salvation, then why isn’t it always done instantly after a confession of faith, why leave such souls in danger until hey get instructions and a special baptism service is scheduled?

          As to the incident of an entire household being saved, others here insisting it included even infants. Acts 16:33 “they had the word of the Lord spoken to them as well as he, and [they] believed as well as he, and rejoiced as he did; all which cannot be said of infants; and besides, it must be proved that he had infants in his house, and that these were taken out of their beds in the middle of the night, and baptized by Paul, ere the instance can be thought to be of any service to infant baptism.”

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Truth Lives,
      “24 For I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 I will SPRINKLE clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26* A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27* And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.”
      – Ezekiel 36:24-27

      • Truth Lives

        (1) If you believe, you get baptised with water

        (2) Infants cannot believe

        (3) Sprinkling water without a person believing does nothing. If you think otherwise, then save people from judgment by spraying them with a water bottle against their permission – after all, their annoyance is a small price to pay for saving their souls.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Truth Lives,
          CrossedtheTiber handled your objection, already, with the example of circumcision. Christ, nor anyone else in Scripture, ever prohibits infants from being baptized.
          Baptism is Christian initiation. Confirmation, i.e., the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17; 19:5-6; Eph. 1:13; 4:30), requires belief and affirmation.

  • Gary

    In the New Testament, there is no Pope; every believer is their own priest; confession of sins is to God only; Mary, the mother of Jesus is a sinner who was saved from her sins by her faith in Christ, who had other children after she gave birth to Jesus; salvation is by faith in Christ only, nothing added, nothing else required; there is no purgatory; Christ is the head of the Church, not the Pope, there is no infant baptism; prayers are to made to God only, never to anyone else. Quite a difference between what is written in the New Testament, and what is taught and practiced by the catholic religion.

    • Gary

      I am surprised that no catholic has tried to rebut this post. They usually are eager to argue with the New Testament.

      • Magister_militum_praesentalis

        Perhaps it is the way you have formulated this as a loaded statement? Good grief.

        • Gary

          All you have to do is prove, from the New Testament, that what I said is wrong. LOL.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Everyone knows what happens when this kind of challenge is made by fundamentalists. They simply reply with “nuh uh, it doesn’t say that,” and proceed to re-interpret the prooftext to fit their own set of presuppositions. Then they deny right and left that they are engaging in interpretation when called on it.

          • Gary

            You catholics are notorious for lying about Scripture. You do it constantly. You have to since reading it as it is written won’t fit your vile, damnable catholic doctrine.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You mean like denying that Adam named all of the animals on the Sixth Day, Gary? In clear contradiction to God’s Word?
            I’m still waiting for your reply.

          • Gary

            It’s fine with me if Adam named the animals on the sixth day. That seems to only be a problem for you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Gary, you said that you wouldn’t concede that you weren’t going to concede the point, remember? Do you also concede that a day is like a thousand years to God? If so, what does that do to your “a day in Genesis 1 is a 24-hour period of time”?
            Now, how did Adam name ALL the animals, along with all the other things God did, in 24 hours?

          • Gary

            When Adam named the animals is not worth arguing about. I don’t care when he did it.
            Are you saying that God considers today, January 2, 2015 to be a thousand years long? There is no evidence that a day in Genesis is any longer, or shorter, than today has been.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I agree, it’s not worth arguing about. I wasn’t trying to win an argument. I only wanted to show there was a perfectly reasonable explanation to not believe Gen.1 was a science book, telling us how God created the universe. You kept objecting.
            And, now that you can’t refute my point, you don’t want to talk about it any more. Even though the Word of God is explicit that Adam named every animal on the Sixth Day. The fact that you can’t admit your error, shows that you are intellectually dishonest, I’m afraid.
            Now, since God is outside of time, there is no January 2, 2015. All of time exists in God, just as the physical universe exists in God. To God, past, present, and future are all the same, because He is the “I AM THAT AM,” He is existence. God created space and time connected to each other. We have no idea how long a day was at the beginning of time.
            I’ve shown you the evidence, Gary, you just refuse to see it. Which is why you are invincibly ignorant.

          • Gary

            Let me say it once more: IT IS FINE WITH ME IF ADAM NAMED THE ANIMALS ON THE SIXTH DAY OF CREATION. Satisfied? It does no damage to Genesis if it happened on day six.
            We know precisely how long the days of the creation week were. They were days like we have now. If they were not days of a week, what we now call Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, then there could be no Sabbath for the Jews to observe. There is no evidence at all that the days of the creation week were ANY different than today. The people who want those days to be long periods of time are usually people who want to make time for evolution to happen.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Then why did you spend so much time falsely claiming it didn’t happen, Gary? You sure could have saved us a lot of time if you had admitted your error last night.
            And, again, the Hebrew yom can also mean age and era. Try doing a word study some time, okay?
            And, yet again, I do NOT believe in materialistic, Darwinian evolution. So, strike three.

          • Gary

            Do you believe in theistic evolution? Is that why you want the days of the creation week to be longer than a regular day?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, Gary, I don’t believe in theistic evolution, either. I don’t know how God created us, I just know that He did, and why. I distinguish between macro- and micro- evolution, though. This explains all the different varieties, like breeds of dogs, and such.
            I told you, I, too, used to be a fundamentalist/literalist when it came to the the 6 Days of Creation. Now that I know what Genesis is really saying, or, I should say, what the Holy Spirit is saying in the verses of Genesis; I don’t think about man’s origins that much, anymore. I certainly don’t think a person’s salvation is in danger if they hold to any number of theories on the origins of the universe, as long as they believe that God did the Creating.

          • Gary

            If you are not an evolutionist, what reason do you have for wanting the creation days to be longer than a day?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I don’t want them to be longer, Gary. I just don’t think 6 24-hour days are tenable, given what the Sacred Scriptures say. This didn’t happen overnight. It was a gradual process as I studied the Bible more and more. There is no reason for Christians to hold such a literal interpretation of Genesis 1. The Bible doesn’t demand that we do.

          • Gary

            Oh but it does. Everything the Bible says about creation indicates God did it six days. Not six eons, six days. There is not even one verse in the Bible that indicates it took longer. The fact is, you don’t believe Genesis. Or Exodus. Which is to be expected since you are not a Christian.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m posting my reply in a new thread, at the top of the combox, Gary.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am not Roman Catholic, remember? Besides, you are just bloviating here with all the pietistic rhetoric. You did not even address the observation about fundamentalists’ duplicity that I mentioned above.

          • Gary

            Most of the fundamentalists that I know are very honest. I must have missed the part about you not being catholic. What religion are you?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I was born and raised Southern Baptist. In fact, I have spent most of my adult life in SBC churches. Over a very long time of studying Scripture, history, and patristics, I have moved away from the Baptist denomination and Protestantism in general.

            I am hesitant to tell you what I am most drawn to because of your use of the loaded term “religion” and the prejudices that I know you have.

          • Gary

            OK. But I’m certain you are not a Christian, which means you should try not to die.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, you consider me not to be a Christian because I have challenged your assumptions and you associate my beliefs with Catholicism. You should try not to be such a bigot.

          • Gary

            My fake Christian detector works pretty well. It has been beeping a lot in this thread.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You still are not dealing with the specifics of my replies to you.

          • Gary

            Well, you’re not dealing with the specifics of what I posted either.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I understand that you do not like what I say and that it would not be beneficial for you to acknowledge that I have dealt with what you posted.

            However, in my defense, I have dealt with what you have posted. I have pointed out how most of what you say is based upon sweeping generalizations and the emotions of anti-Catholic bigotry.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    Chrisleduc1,
    No, I don’t know when this interpretation of Lk.1:34 was first proposed. Nor, do I speak ancient Greek.
    While the simple answer is that it goes back to the Apostolic age, the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary developed over time, and, the earliest discussions I found were in the late Second/early Third Century, by Tertullian, Origen, and Clement of Alexandria. They did not all agree, though. Clement affirmed Mary & Joseph had not other children, Origen vacillated, and Tertullian denied it.
    Since you have now shifted to appeals to authority, I will appeal to my own:
    http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/12/biblical-proof-that-mary-and-joseph.html

    • Neiman

      Your only authority is Roman Catholic tradition – not God’s Word.

      • CrossedtheTiber

        I’m confused why you say that since Catholics have provided you with countless Scriptures.

        • Neiman

          I would have to be reminded of my exact words and the context to reply.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Well, now I feel thoroughly insulted. In all of our discussions I have provided verse after verse, yet you dismiss all of that in one swoop by claiming that I do not use God’s word.

          • pax2u

            I think that he finds the Bible an inconvienence to his hatred of Catholics
            Catholics are always told that they do not read the Bible
            When a Catholic provides Scripture the answer is always the same
            it is out of context
            but since there are more than 30 thousand denominations which one has scripture in proper context?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I’ve said it before, but that is the exact problem that I faced as a Protestant. How could God do so much and be so powerful, yet leave Christianity in such utter chaos. It didn’t make sense! I realized later that the issue was not Christianity itself, but the problematic nature of Protestant Christianity.

          • pax2u

            I see that Gary will not proclaim the Christian Trinity, maybe it is just too Catholic for him

          • Neiman

            Give me my exact words, in context and I will reply, otherwise go away, you are wasting my time.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            “Your only authority is Roman Catholic tradition – not God’s Word.”

          • Neiman

            No, my exact words about you Catholics providing countless scriptures as you accused me of saying.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I said that I provided you with countless Scriptures, yet in this comment you deny our use of Scripture by saying that we do not adhere to the authority of God’s Word.

          • Neiman

            You keep changing your words and terms so often it is hard to keep up with your false statements. (a) The times you offer scripture are able to be counted if I cared to take the time and they are few instances. (b) The few passages you offer NEVER prove your assertions. (c) Virtually everything you believe depends not on God’s Word, but on Roman Catholic Tradition to add to, delete or twist scripture to mean what it does not clearly say.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Well, now, if we want to get into people deleting Scripture (which Catholics don’t do) there is the whole issue of Protestants deleting whole books from the Bible.

          • Neiman

            That is a lie of the Roman Catholic Church:

            Those extra books of the Bible were opposed by a majority of the Council and even the writer opposed them, but was forced by Rome to include them. They are not part of the canon.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            What ‘writer’? The Canon of Scripture was compiled by a whole group of people. There was not one single ‘writer’ except that God divinely inspired all of Sacred Scripture to include these 7 books that were a part of the original Canon of Scripture.

          • Neiman

            In a hurry I erred in using “writer,” it should have been ‘translator.”

            “There was significant debate in the early Christian church, with a majority of the early church fathers rejecting the idea that the Apocrypha belonged in the Bible.

            However, under tremendous pressure from Rome, Jerome, the translator of the Latin Vulgate, included the Apocrypha, despite Jerome’s insistence that the Apocrypha did not belong in the Bible. The Latin Vulgate became the dominant and officially sanctioned Catholic Bible, and remained that way for around 1200 years. Thus, the Apocrypha became a part of the Catholic Bible.

            The Apocrypha was not formally/officially made a part of the Catholic Bible, though, until the Council of Trent, [only] in response to the Protestant Reformation. The early Protestant Reformers, in agreement with Judaism, determined that the Apocrypha did not belong in the Bible, and therefore removed
            the Apocrypha from Protestant Bibles.

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Bible.html#ixzz3Ngn8GSrr

          • pax2u

            poor Neiman is filled with hatred and anger,
            he is trapped with the concept of the Christian Trinity, since it is not in the Bible and is a Catholic Tradition, should he reject it and deny the Trinity or accept it and agree with the Catholic Church or was it an invention of Martin Luther after 1500 years?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also – what about the Orthodox Churches who include these books? They are not Catholic yet they include the original 73 books of the Bible.

          • Neiman

            They are just bastardized forms of the Roman Catholic Church and are equally wrong.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            That reply was entirely predictable. You are not doing very well in separating yourself from the general historical and theological ignorance of most fundamentalists.

          • Neiman

            Fundamentals are only ignorant to you as you have a massive, out of control ego and are unable to soundly refute anything I believe or have offered here. Your only role here is to attack all Non-Catholics, create strife, division and hate which are the names of three demonic spirits that operate through you.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            There is the same projection and trumpeting of pietistic rhetoric. You constantly pick and choose your battles. When you encounter too much of a challenge, everyone is tipped off when you post massive walls of pasted text and whine about too many posts to answer.

          • Neiman

            I apologize, I forgot to mention that demon of lying that controls your life as well.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What am I lying about? Anyone can see this pattern if they look at your record of posts.

          • pax2u

            I am not surprised that Neiman has no denomination, his idea of heaven is very small just room enough for him, or maybe his buddies Gary of the Westboro Baptist Church and Frank looking to numerology to prove his distorted theology

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Again, I was the one that stated that we have provided countless Scriptures. You never said this, only I did. You, however, deny this by saying that we do not adhere to the authority of God’s word (see above quote).

      • pax2u

        “We are obliged to yield many things to the Papists–that with them is the Word of God, which we received from them; otherwise we should have known nothing at all about it.”- Martin Luther

      • pax2u

        the Christian Trinity is Catholic Tradition and is not in the Bible, do you deny the Christian Trinity as Catholic tradition?

        • Neiman

          It is not a Catholic Tradition, it is clearly given us in God”s Word.

          • pax2u

            where is the word Trinity in the Bible, and who first used the word Trinity?
            was it Martin Luther?

          • Neiman

            The word trinity does not appear and I do not care who originated the term, the triune nature of God is clearly taught in many passages of the Bible and does not depend upon man.

          • pax2u

            so you support the Catholic Tradition of the Christian Trinity
            thank you

          • Neiman

            No I do not! You are lying!

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred, and I understand your confusion,
            I will pray for you

          • Neiman

            Pray about the lying spirit that possess your dark soul.

          • Gary

            Well said.

          • pax2u

            you can hate me and my faith, and I will continue to pray for you and forgive you
            your hatred of all but yourself is consuming you
            I understand why you have no church , no denomination and no Christian fellowship, except Gary and his westboro baptist church
            seek mental health care
            may God forgive you

          • pax2u

            so now you do not support the Christian Trinity?

          • pax2u

            I see that Gary is afraid to answer, afraid to agree with Catholic Tradition

    • Nick_from_Detroit
    • chrisleduc1

      Can you cite ANY fathers that interpreted that text the way you do? Either you have a new interpretation, or you don’t.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Chrisleduc1,
        No, not off the top of my head, I can’t. I was rather clear on this point, in the first sentence.

        • chrisleduc1

          No you weren’t clear that’s why I had to ask. It seems to me that what you clearly said was that you weren’t sure of the origin of this interpretation. I’m simply asking if you can cite any fathers to interpret the text of the way you do. If you can’t then you’re bringing in a new interpretation. That should raise some serious red flags when you interpret the text different than the early Fathers did. You have departed from the faith.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Perhaps the Protoevangelium of James would be helpful in examining the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

          • chrisleduc1

            Not really, since it was written at least 100 years after James by someone using his name. Origen is the first person to mention it and includes it in non-accepted, non-cannoical books. Doesn’t help your case much.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            What’s with all the acrimony? You’ve been calling me names and acting rude since last night. Did I do something to offend you?
            Now, I clearly said that I didn’t know where the interpretation originated. Not that I was not sure. Besides, the Church has taught, from the early Church Fathers, that Joseph & Mary didn’t have other children.
            By the way, would you consider the Rapture a new interpretation?

  • chrisleduc1

    Let’s see what the early church fathers had to say about scripture and tradition:

    Irenaeus says “we have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, then from those whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did it one time proclaim in public, and, at a later., By the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith…”

    Alexander Roberts and W. H. Rambaut: The writings of Irenaeus against heresies 3.1.1

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Iranaeus: “As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

      “That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

      “It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

      “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

      “With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

      • chrisleduc1

        You seem to be unaware of the fact that Iranaeus clearly states the Gospel, the ground and pillar of the faith, is the Scriptures. So if you want to try and prove that he meant “doctrine” when he uses the word tradition, you’ll have to prove thats what he meant. He’s already clearly stated that the Gospel was publicly proclaimed and then written down. He does not say partially. It was written down. This is Scripture. ” God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith…”

        • CrossedtheTiber

          You seem to be unaware of the fact that Iranaeus died before the Christian Canon of Scripture was closed. The only Scriptures he had were the Old Testament and the writings of the apostles. However, the Christians had not yet determined which of those writings would be included in the Canon (Bible). Therefore he had to depend both on what was passed in written and oral form (Tradition).

          • chrisleduc1

            False. 1. The Scriptures were all penned before he was even born. 2. The Muratorian canon demonstrates that canon was well established by his time in 170. He had the entire NT at the time he wrote that.

            Furthermore, if what you are saying is true, than if proves my point even further. If he, as you say, ” died before the Christian Canon of Scripture was closed” and “the only Scriptures he had were the Old Testament and the writings of the apostles ” and “therefore he had to depend both on what was passed in written and oral form (Tradition)” then honestly, what the the implications of what he wrote that I previously quoted? Im mean seriously, if everything you are saying is the complete and entire truth, about the lack of Scripture and the uncertainty about it, then what does that imply when he writes: “he Gospel has come down to us, which they did it one time proclaim in public, and, at a later., By the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” ??? If everything you say is true, then by him saying that Scripture contains both the Gospel and is the ground and pillar of our faith, he is really showing the sufficiency and primacy of Scripture. You just keep proving my point.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Of course the Gospel was handed down. The Gospel is the message of our salvation through Jesus Christ. The Gospel is the foundation of Christianity and the Gospel message was passed along through oral and written form. The Christians also passed down, through written and oral form, instructions about their Christian faith. Additionally, I did not say that the New Testament had not yet ben penned. Because most of it was write by apostles who died in the first century, then of course it had been penned prior to the close of the Canons. However, the Bible, in the way that we know it today, was not compiled and closed until the late third and early 4th centuries.

          • Neiman

            Sorry, Peter recognized Paul’s writings as being scripture.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Are you sure you want to bring up that passage from 2 Peter? It seems to support the case against sola Scriptura.

          • Neiman

            II Peter 3: “16 As
            also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which
            are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and
            unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own
            destruction.”

            Peter, the alleged first Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, clearly viewed Paul’s writing on the same level as all the writings of the Old Testament, the Gospel’s and other books/letters of the New Testament. Thus being good for instruction, reproof in righteousness and as a guide to Christian living. There is nary a word that supports tradition of men other than that handed down by Christ and the Apostles. If Peter considered then as having the same authority as other Scripture, it is perfectly in harmony with sola scriptura.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            First – I’m not sure that you understand the office of the Pope. If you would like me to try to explain it better I would be happy to try.

            Second – Very good point that St. Peter respected and even adhered to some of St. Paul’s writings. This does not negate St. Peter as Pope nor does it prove or even support sola scriptura. It actually seems to do the opposite since it is telling us that some of the writings are hard to understand and easy to misinterpret. That would seem to mean that we would need something outside of Scripture to help us understand Scripture which is where Sacred Tradition comes in (Sacred because it is provided and protected by the Holy Spirit)

            Let’s see what St. Paul says about Tradition:

            1 Cor 11:2 “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”

            2 Thess 2:15: “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter”

            2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us”

          • Neiman

            1. I do understand what the Pope is and none of it is scriptural.
            2. (a) No that statement alone would not negate Peter being the first Pope, but that idea too is wholly unscriptural and there are many other evidences against it. (b) No it alone does not prove sola scriptura, but many other passages do support reliance only on God’s Word. ” “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” It says nothing about the traditions of men or any spiritual authority beyond that given to the Apostles.
            3. Notice that in the passages you offered from Paul the first talks of traditions delivered by Paul an Apostle, in the other two cases is speaks of “us,” meaning the Apostles. There is nary a word that approves of anyone after Christ and the Apostles being able to establish, pass on or enforce any traditions not included in Scripture.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Also -at the time, all writings were referred to as scripture. There is a difference between scripture and Sacred Scripture.

            Edited to say that it’s possible that certain writings were considered Sacred at the time, but that does not disprove the fact that the Canon had not yet been closed.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I edited my statement above to say that it is true that it’s possible that some texts were already considered Sacred. However, the Canon had not yet been closed so they were still unsure what the whole of the Canon would be.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Saint Peter also said that baptism saves (1Pet.3:21).

          • Neiman

            I disagree, as the Ark of Noah was a symbol of our being rescued by water, so water baptism is only a symbol, a public declaration of an already completed act.

            For me the most important fact of salvation is that it is by grace alone and through faith alone, add anything to it and grace is no longer grace: This explains it for me:

            “Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not
            sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.”

            “If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)? Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of
            Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)? Granted, in this passage Paul is arguing against the divisions that
            plagued the Corinthian church. However, how could Paul possibly say, “I am thankful that I did not baptize…” or “For Christ did not send me to baptize…” if baptism were necessary for salvation? If baptism is necessary for salvation, Paul would literally be saying, “I am thankful that you were not saved…” and “For Christ did not send me to save…” That would be an unbelievably ridiculous statement for Paul to make. Further, when Paul gives a detailed outline of what he considers the
            gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-8), why does he neglect to mention baptism? If baptism is a requirement for salvation, how could any presentation of the gospel lack a mention of baptism?

            Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html#ixzz3Niki5khc

            So, (a) Add water baptism or anything to Grace and salvation is no longer by Grace, but of works. (b) If any of the Apostles taught Salvation and said certain people were saved, but then did not immediately rush them to the water and baptize them, the people they preached to were not yet saved and the Apostle was putting their salvation at risk should they die before being baptized. (c) Jesus lied to the good thief about being with Him in Paradise that day, because He surely did not take the good thief off the cross and baptize him before he died. (d) While baptism is an ordinance of the early Church and passed on to us, it is a public declaration of an already completed act of salvation. (e) I can understand that to Catholics who are not saved, but “being saved” by their many acts of submission to the Catholic Church and perhaps by suffering in Purgatory, there is plenty of time for baptism.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            The Ark of Noah was not a symbol, it actually saved Noah and his family. As baptism actually saves, according to God’s Word. You’re selectively self-interpreting, again.
            And, as Saint James said, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead” (James 2:26).

          • Neiman

            Sorry, but you are wrong again. The Ark of Noah was symbolic of the Divine Ark that saves us – namely Jesus Christ. As I said, if baptism is required, Grace is no longer grace and I gave you examples of where by their actions both Jesus and the Apostles denied any works as being a part of salvation.

            I get dang sick of you folk and non-believers taking James words, the words of the Holy Spirit in Him, out of context. It is a most damnable lie that James ever said works was required to gain or maintain our salvation.

            First, can you not see that if works of any kind are a condition for our salvation, then grace is no longer grace, it can not possibly be by grace? Grace is salvation as a free gift of God’s Mercy based on unmerited favor, meaning something we cannot merit or earn. Thus God says salvation can only result in our favor as a free gift from Him without any strings attached, He is not an Indian giver; but add one thing to it, one small act of the will of man, any act of our flesh and it cannot possibly be a gift, if we add anything before or after receiving the gift, it cannot in any way be considered a gift any longer, it is then compensation or a reward, something earned. Can’t you understand that?

            “26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”

            This passage does not say the person is not saved or not justified before God or not having any faith, it talks of the faith of the person being dead, of no value to their lives or the lives of others without evidence of the works of the Spirit in our lives. Before this in Chapter One, James talks of our works of religion being the taking care of orphans and widows and keeping ourselves from being polluted by the world. Then in Chapter Two he speaks of loving our neighbor as ourselves and of our talking about faith and wishing others well, but without in a more practical way reaching out to meet their real needs. These are the works he speaks of in context and if we thus fail, being polluted by the world (sin) and not acting in the Love of God in practical ways, then our faith is a dead faith, of no use to ourselves or others; yet, he does not deny that the faith he speaks of does not exist, just that it is useless, a dead thing without works of the Spirit being produced in and through us..

            The Holy Spirit is the same Spirit speaking through Paul and James and He would never contradict Himself. That same Holy Spirit makes it clear in Paul’s writings that salvation is a free gift (grace) and NOT of any works of the will or the flesh; then, in James, He (Holy Spirit) does not deny what he already said about salvation being a free gift of His grace, rather he speaks of the nature/value of that saving faith if it produces no true spiritual fruit, while the person is saved, their faith is dead, useless to them and others.

            This false use of God’s Word in James makes me angry, angry because it denies salvation by grace alone, it places our works of the flesh as playing a part in our salvation, which denies God the glory that belongs to Him alone. It puts precious Christian souls into bondage to the Law and the damnable traditions of men, denying these precious souls their liberty and peace in the finished work of Christ on our behalf and it brings shame upon the Cross and upon Christ.

            Further, while you will not accept it, because you deny by insisting on works that salvation is wholly a free gift of God’s Grace; if we are to enjoy victorious Christian living, living holy lives and bearing spiritual fruit – that too has to be by His grace alone, by faith; which is to His glory and our benefit, while no man may glory before Him about anything.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            I didn’t quote James out of context. In fact, I quoted him, at length, to Chrisleduc1, above. I’ll do the same here:
            “But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

            You need to stop posting the teachings of men, and read the Word of God, Neiman.

          • Neiman

            I have said all I have to say on the subject. I do NOT follow the teachings of men, but if any of them can add to the conversation by presenting what I already believe from God’s Word in a clear and better way, why go to the extra effort to offer my own poor words? I have always included my own understandings and Scripture to support my every belief, you just ignore everything I say, you do not refute the words offered by others, you chicken out and complain about the source and ignore their words and mine and just repeat/defend your Roman Catholic traditions which all deny the Word of God.

            Do what you want, I am tired and have nothing more to add nor anything I want to delete or modify from what I have already offered. You reject God’s Word at your own eternal peril and sadly, lead others astray, away from Grace and away from Christ.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Neiman,
            Physician, heal thyself! You are doing to me exactly what you are accusing me of. I don’t ignore what you say, I address it.
            Like I just did. Explain how I took James’ words out of context now? You completely ignored those quotes and highlighted parts. And, now you are trying to obfuscate.

          • Neiman

            I have said all I have to say, in a figurative way I now shake the dust from off my feet against you. This has descended into a vain disputation, a casting of pearls of God’s Wisdom in a swine pit, it will avail nothing. Keep working for your salvation, spend time in Purgatory (hell) and see where it gets you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            C’mon, Neiman! You can’t admit that you wrong for accusing me of taking James’ words out of context? Even when I showed you in black and white? Pretty lame, ya’ know?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            We should start keeping a list of the people who end up receiving the Neiman Treatment. Perhaps if he sees the cold statistical numbers it will pierce the bubble of cognitive dissonance he lives in.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Ha-ha! Now that’s funny, right there. I don’t care who you are!

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          Saint Paul said that the Church was “the pillar and foundation of the truth” (1Tim.3:15). Were he and Saint Iranaeus contradicting each other?

          • chrisleduc1

            Why don’t you cite what he wrote on that verse? Or cite some of the early fathers on that verse.

            Let’s see if the early church interpreted the text the way you do.

          • chrisleduc1

            If Iranaeus was contradicting the Scriptures, that may create a problem for you, but not for me. For me, the Scriptures are without error. Church fathers are only right when they agree with Scripture. So if he is contradicting Scripture, this creates several problems for you. 1. The demonstrates the claim by the RCC that their current interpretations have always been held by everyone orthodox. 2. You have to decide who your final authority is when there are contradictions. I can point to many times the fathers contradict each other. Whats your final authority? Is it Scripture? But al this misses the point. The point is that in the second century, it was not unwritten tradition that was authoritative doctrinally, as claimed today by the RCC. It was clearly Scripture.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I find no contradiction in either statement. Because Paul also said, “So then brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.” – 2 Thess.2:15</b
            "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you."
            – 1 Cor. 11:2
            “Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” – 2 Tim.1:13-14
            “[…] and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
            – 2 Tim. 2:2

            And, also from John:
            “Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.” – 1 John 2:24
            We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.” – 1 John 4:6

            “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” – John 21:25

          • chrisleduc1

            Simple question for you.
            Suppose a man was stranded on deserted island, all alone. He was a Hindu. Then supposes a perfectly preserved Protestant bible washed ashore.

            According to official RCC dogma, could this man be saved through only the Scriptute?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            God can save whomever however He’d like. That is why we, as Catholics, can say that you can be saved even if you are not a Catholic. However, that does not negate the importance of Sacred Tradition.

          • chrisleduc1

            Actually the RCC says you can be saved and not even know Christ! That is the rankest off all heresies.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            No, it really isn’t. It is a show of God’s awesome Grace. Wouldn’t it be cruel of God to condemn to hell those who, by no fault of there own, never have the opportunity to hear about Him?

          • chrisleduc1

            All men have rebelled against God. If you think He is obligated to give salvation to everyone then you are simply a humanist. To think the God woikd give salvation to people to do not worship Christ is disgusting. And to think otherwise demonstrates how little you think of Him.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            God is not obligated to do anything that I would like Him to do. He is God. I resent your accusation that I am simply a humanist. I fully believe in God and I believe that He was telling the truth when He said that He is a just God.

          • chrisleduc1

            A just God is not obligated to offer salvation to anyone. He could justly condemn every person to hell and it would be loving at the same time. Or He could save one person and condemn all the rest and He’d still be both loving and just to all.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You are right, He is not obligated to offer us salvation, but He does, and it is not up to us to tell Him how He can and can not go about that. He is God.

          • chrisleduc1

            And He has told us in the Scriptures plainly but the RCC ignores that.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We do not ignore Scripture, but simply realize that there are mysteries to God that we will understand and that we can not claim to know things that only He can know, such as the state of someone’s soul either here or in the afterlife.

          • chrisleduc1

            Wouldn’t it be cruel? Wow you have a low view of God and a high view or man. That God has not destroyed the whole world already like He did in Noah’s day and sent everyone to hell is amazing.
            But you say He’s cruel if He justly condemns people to hell without giving them an opportunity for salvation? You don’t know God then.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I have a feeling that your attacks are coming from frustration so I will not take them personally.

            Why do you put God in a box and say that He can’t save those who have never heard of Him?

          • chrisleduc1

            Cant? Never said can’t. The Scriptures are clear. Shall I quote Jesus? Unless a man is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is clear in the OT (esp Ezek and Jer) which is why Jesus scoffed at Nicodemus being THE teacher of Isreal and not knowing this. The NT makes this clear as well. See Ephesians and Peters letters for a start.

            Again, the problem is do not hold Gods Word as your source of authority. So you are therefore lost.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            chrisleduc1: “That God has not destroyed the whole world already like He did in Noah’s day and sent everyone to hell is amazing. “

            This would seem to devalue Jesus’ redemptive and restorative work on the Cross in much the same way that you think CrossedtheTiber’s view devalues God. Do you think that the Incarntion and Crucifixion/Resurrection had any effect on human nature in general? Did it do anything towards restoring creation?

          • chrisleduc1

            Great question. Let me put my baby to bed and I’ll get back to you as it will take a bit more typing.

          • chrisleduc1

            Let me being by saying that I am not making a full effort
            tto use extremely exclusive, exact, precise language. If there is any question
            about my meaning that cannot be gathered from immediate context, please let me
            know. Im not worried about you intentionally misinterpreting what I write, but
            others on here. Next, I am going to both write this and post it in multiple
            segments, because this site seems to have a very arbitrary flagging system and
            Im not going to take the time to write everything only to not be able to post
            it. I will notate the final post.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Yeah, I would write it in Notepad or Word first so that you don’t lose it all with the flagging system. It can get very frustrating.

          • chrisleduc1

            So we have to start with the fact that Jesus work on the
            cross, salvation, etc are all Old Testament concepts. While there are some
            aspects that were a mystery, such as the gentiles sharing a body with Jews,
            much was already revealed in the OT. So note that Jesus scolded Nicodemus when
            He told him about the need to be re-born and Nicodemus’ lack of understanding. Jesus
            said, you are THE teacher of Israel and you don’t know this? Fact is, as Jesus
            pointed out, the new birth is an OT concept.

            ***By the way, feel free to comment and Ill address as I go if its not too much of a rabbit trail, otherwise Ill wait till Im done.**

          • chrisleduc1

            So if you sit down and read Genesis you quickly see that man
            is wicked. Plain and simple. Every intention of his heart is evil all the time.
            So God judges the world and starts again. Nothing about man changes post flood,
            man is still the same. Noah found grace in Gods eyes. Literally, God chose to
            be gracious to him. So God starts again. He develops the nation of Israel. They
            are nothing special. Nothing super moral or upright. Abraham was an idolator
            before God called him and liar afterwards (see lying ab Sarah being his sister)
            and Isssac sees this and repeats the very actions. Jacob is no better. So fast
            forward to the time of the Exodus. Still unfaithful, wicked people. Literally
            right after seeing God melt the top of Sinai and professing that they will obey
            the siniatic covenant, they go and make a golden calf!

          • chrisleduc1

            Ok, if you fast forward to the end of the Hebrew Bible, your
            last page is the last chapter of Chronicles. It wraps up a pretty nasty
            history. In summary, God has done everything possible for Israel. He took them
            from Egypt. Saved them first, then gave His law. They broke the covenant, He
            remade it. They rebelled more, so he let all that generation die. The next
            generation went into the land, but they comprimsed and did not take all the
            land and drive out all the nations as they were commanded. So we get the book
            of Judges. The corrupting influence of the goi’im on the people of God,
            spiraling all the way to the story of Jeptha and also Judges 19.

          • chrisleduc1

            Fastforward further, we have the northern kingdom
            split off and go totally apostate. The Southern kingdo lasts slightly longer.
            They too are apostate. Bottom line they ALL end of exiled because they have not
            and do not obey God, plain and simple. So God judges them. Then, He bring them
            back into the land for another chance. How long does that last? Not long at
            all. Immediately God is sending them prophets to rebuke them, before they even
            get the temple or the city built!

          • chrisleduc1

            So then several hundred years later, at the time of Christ,
            the Jews have completely lost their right to govern themselves. They are still
            under the judgement that God promised through Moses back in DT. And when the NT
            is written, we see that the spiritual leadership of Israel was totally
            apostate, as were the common people. It was the common people screaming
            “crucify Him.”Top to bottom they were wicked and apostate. At this point, God
            has done everything He can do to bring about an obedient people who truly
            worship Him. He has taken them from Egypt, given them a land flowing with milk
            and honey, sent them prophets, given them a system to atone for sin, literally
            dwelt in the presence, finally had to exile them, then brought them into the
            land again, and yet they are all totally apostate. Chronicles closes on quite a
            sad note. God has done everything to make this thing work, but it doesn’t.

          • chrisleduc1

            Now, as I mentioned, Jesus gave Nicodemus a hard time for
            not knowing about the new birth. This is because is had been already promised
            in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel. It was this promise of a new covenant, outlined
            in those books, that was the hope of Israel. As is clear at the close of
            Chronicles, nothing has worked. Its going to take something different. That’s
            why God had been promising a NEW covenant back in Jer and Ezek. Ill quote them
            in the next post.

          • chrisleduc1

            Jer 31 tells us about the New Covenant:

            “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

          • chrisleduc1

            Ezekiel gives us even more details:

            36:

            Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 17 “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. 18 Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. 20 When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’21 But I had [i]concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.

            Israel to Be Renewed for His Name’s Sake

            22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

          • chrisleduc1

            OK so what we have here is God promising something
            completely revolutionary. As we look at Ezekiel, not how many times the person
            pronoun I is used. God says over and “I will…” and “I will…” This is a
            completely sovereign work of God. God promises that He will take a man dead,
            stony heart and give him a new heart. Keep in mind the Hebrew meaning of לֵב

          • chrisleduc1

            Ok so whats amazing here is tha God not only 100%
            sovereignly gives a new heart He also puts His spirit in him, which unlike under
            the OT the Spirit only came “upon” people. And on top of that, He will write
            His laws on that new heart, and if that’s wasn’t enough, He will cause His
            people to obey His laws. Its like a computer getting a completely new program.
            Its really amazing and its all 100% sovereign. There is not a hint of human
            cooperation but I digress. So, in summary, what we see is that this is the what
            Jesus chided Nicodemus about not knowing when He talked about a new birth.
            Jesus said you must be born from above. Of the Spirit. Ezek and Jeremiah are so
            clear about this. No as an aside, this is my own personal testimony. I was
            happy doing my own thing, playing poker at night, running my business, living
            on the beach etc. Then through reading God’s Word, He saved me. He gave me a
            new heart. He completely changed me. Now I have new desires. I want to obey
            Him. I am a worshipper. What Ezek and Jer said would happen and Jesus said must
            happen has in fact happened and its amazing. Now I am paying a boatload to get
            a M.Div at Seminary, learing to translate ancient Hebrew and Greek. If you had
            told me 10 years ago Id be on this path I would have told you that you were
            insane. Who could possibly want to go back to school to learn to translate
            somme dead languages, and be a pastor when you shepherd people and make less money
            doing it than in owning my own business…. But I digress. So, to answer your
            question….

          • chrisleduc1

            You said/asked “This would seem to devalue
            Jesus’ redemptive and restorative work on the Cross in much the same way that
            you think CrossedtheTiber’s view devalues God. Do you think that the Incarntion
            and Crucifixion/Resurrection had any effect on human nature in general? Did it
            do anything towards restoring creation?”

            You were responding to me saying “”That God has not destroyed the whole world already like He
            did in Noah’s day and sent everyone to hell is amazing. “”

            The NT consistently
            teaches that Christ will come back and that in the mean time, things will get
            progressively worse. Christ is going to come back and personally slay ALL the
            wicked of the earth. This earth will be burned up with fire and there will be a
            new heavens and a new earth. ….

          • chrisleduc1

            So the NT teaches that
            Christians, ie those who have been born again or born from above as Jesus puts
            it, made alive as Paul puts it, born again of a living hope as Peter puts it,
            begotten and brought forth by the Word of truth as James puts it, Christians
            will be on earth and we will doing doing the good works that were ordained that
            we do, as Paul puts it. Just a Ezekiel said, He has written His law (love God
            greatest commandment and love neighbor as self second greatest which is like
            unto the first) on our hearts and since we have been born again, given a new
            heart, are indwelt by His spirit and have His laws written on our hearts AND
            are CAUSED to obey His law, Christians do good works. As an aside, the ago old
            paradox between Paul saying we are saved by faith apart form works and James
            says saved by faith and works is simple to reconcile…

          • chrisleduc1

            In context, Paul is specifically talking about the Gospel. He
            makes the clear in the first chapter. The historical context fits with Acts 14
            and the Judiazers teaching that salvation comes by works and grace, Acts 15
            totally shuts that down as Peter makes clear, God cleansed their hearts by
            faith, therefore they were not to be put under the law. Paul now writes to the
            Galatians re-defending his Gospel of salvation by grace apart from works. The
            context makes clear they were trying to add in works and Paul reminds them how
            they were saved! How were you saved? Paul says “nevertheless
            knowing that a man is not justified by the works of [n]the Law but through
            faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be
            justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of [o]the Law; since by the
            works of [p]the
            Law no [q]flesh
            will be justified.” And also “This is the only thing I want to find out from
            you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of [b]the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so
            foolish? Having begun [d]by
            the Spirit, are you now [e]being
            perfected by the flesh? 4 Did
            you [f]suffer
            so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then,
            does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do
            it by the works of [h]the
            Law, or by [i]hearing
            with faith?

            6 [j]Even so Abraham
            believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, [k]be sure that it is
            those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The
            Scripture, foreseeing that God [l]would justify the [m]Gentiles by faith,
            preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will
            be blessed in you.” 9 So
            then those who are of faith are blessed with [n]Abraham, the believer.”

            Paul makes it clear, you are justified,
            you are given a new clean heart strictly by faith alone. No contribution by
            man, its by faith, just as Abraham was justified because He believed God. But
            James, he says….

          • chrisleduc1

            James says something different, but the
            context is completely different. And context is key. Paul is specifically
            writing about the Gospel and defending his preaching of salvation by grace
            through faith apart from works. He even says that if anyone preaches another
            (heteros ie different, not allos ie another of the same kind) he is to be
            accursed. So the heart of Pauls letter is, what is the Gospel. James on the
            other hand, is writing to what appear to be Jews, who claim to be Christians.
            But there is a problem. They don’t have the evidence of having that new heart.
            Remember God said He would write his laws on that new heart and CAUSE them to
            obey. But James is constantly rebuking them for the ungodly deeds. He points
            out that simple mental/intellectual assent to the truth does not equal
            salvation. Even the demons know the truth, and it causes a physical response.
            Salvation, according to the Scriptures, results in a new heart that obeys God’s
            laws (love God, love neighbor) but these guys were not doing that. They were
            contradicting the very Gospel they claimed to believe! So he points out that
            Abraham, he PROVED he was justified by His works. Works DEMONSTRATE salvation.
            They are declarative. They are demonstrative. When God first justifies someone,
            He give them a new hearyt with new desires and it is demonstrated by the good
            works. It would be like if I would you I installed a new program on your
            computer, but then when you went to run it, it was exactly like before, only it
            CLAIMED to be a newer version. Youd say I was a crook and sold you bogus
            software that was really the same old software with a new label. That’s what
            James is addressing. He is saying that faith, if its is not accompanied by
            works, its dead. Peter said we have a living faith. A living hope. Paul says we
            were made alive. James says if you don’t have the works promised in Jeremiah
            and Ezekiel, you have a dead faith, not the living faith of Christ. Ok, back on
            topic…

          • chrisleduc1

            So you asked “Do you think that the Incarntion and Crucifixion/Resurrection
            had any effect on human nature in general? Did it do anything towards restoring
            creation?”

            My simple answer is, No. I don’t
            think the resurrection did anything for human nature in general. But, for those
            who have been born again, it’s a completely new nature. The NT consistently
            teaches that. You were dead, but made alive in Christ. The old man has been
            buried and the new man made alive in Christ. My own testimony confirms this.
            This is the testimony of the Christians since the beginning. Read Augustine (Im
            sure you have). There are many others. Read Dialog with Trypho. The testimony
            of the Church is that when Christ gets ahold of you, He causes you to become a
            new person. You are born again. If that hasn’t happened to a person, then they
            are not part of the New Covenant. Jeremiah and Ezekial could not be more clear.
            It either has happened or it has not.

            You asked if it did anything to
            restore creation in general. Simpel answer, No. Paul said (post resurrection of
            course) all of creation groans and is under bondage. Creation is getting worse.
            People are getting worse. The 20th century was the most deadly in
            human history. 120 MILLION dead from war. Genetic diseases are increasing. We
            are breaking down. Its getting bad and will only get worse until Christ
            returns.

            That concludes my response 🙂

            If I did not adequately answer your question, please let me know.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            You did not have to write a dissertation to answer the question! Where do you want me to start?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I think Gibbon’s Rise and Fall… was shorter than that!
            Ha-ha!

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Chris – I’m really sorry if you feel like we’re brow-beating you with all of this Catholic stuff. It’s not because I’m against you in any way, but because I’ve found the fullness of the Truth that Jesus left us and that is in the Catholic Church and I want to try to defend it against many of the misunderstanding and misconceptions that are out there about the Catholic Church. I don’t in any way want my actions to turn you off to the Catholic Church and if they have please know that I am deeply sorry.

            I only read a part of this commentary, but what I read shows me that you might have a thrilling time studying typology, the study of ‘types’ in the Bible through the lens of ancient Christianity. Scott Hahn excels at this and makes the Bible come alive and shows connections that I never would have seen before. It’s incredible and so exciting! If you ever have the chance to look him up on You Tube or look up his books, I strongly recommend him if you find yourself wrestling with some of the things that we’ve discussed in this forum. Just as a little background, he was a Presbyterian Minister, seminary student and staunch anti-Catholic who tried to disprove Catholicism and ended up joining the Catholic Church.

            Also – if you ever decide to research Catholicism (again, I truly hope I haven’t turned you off to it), then keep in mind that there are a lot of books out there that pose as authorities on the Catholic faith but are actually very anti-Catholic in nature. Lorraine Boettner’s “Roman Catholicism” is an example of this. From a scholarly perspective alone you will see that he only uses 12 sources to explain 2000 years of Catholic history which should be an automatic red-flag. He also uses known forgeries and falsehoods.

            If you want to find books that authentically teach Catholic doctrine, then look for the words “Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur” in the inside cover. These words mean that the book has been checked and found to be free of doctrinal error.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You’re probably being flagged because of whatever anti-Catholic website you keep copying and pasting from has been flagged.

          • chrisleduc1

            Il take that as a compliment. I don’t, not need to, copy and paste anything anti-catholic. Only thing Ive posted that was written by me were the Scriptures and the quotes from the Fathers.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chris, could you rewrite that in English, please?

          • chrisleduc1

            There, I edited it for you. The ninth word was corrected to “nor” and the I added the missing word NOT is caps. Should now be so simple a 5 year old could figure it out.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m not sure what that has to do with my reply, but, okay.
            The teaching of the Catholic Church is that a Hindu, or anyone of any faith, for that matter, who, through no fault of their own, does not know Christ, can still be saved. It’s complicated and very nuanced. If you’d like, I can find the links to the appropriate documents?

          • chrisleduc1

            Based on him having a bible only as I said, simple yes or no please.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Based on having a Bible, or not. As long as he was striving to know God, and not committing grave sin. That’s a little simplistic, but it covers the gist of it. Read the link, please.

          • chrisleduc1

            Don’t need to read the link. I’ve read the canons and compare them to the Scriputures. James says if you break ONE law you’re guitky of breaking them ALL. God cursed the entire creation over ONE sin. And you want to make distinctions about what is a grave sin and what is not as if some sins won’t keep you from heaven? You really need to get saved.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            What does any of this have to do with my reply on Tradition? Are you deliberately obfuscating?
            Did God condemn hundreds of generations of North & South American Indians who didn’t know Christ, until Columbus arrived in 1492?
            p.s. If you believe in the dogma of the Trinity, you hold to the doctrine of men. Because, while the Trinity is alluded to in the Scriptures, it wasn’t named and defined until centuries later.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Um… the Canon is the Scripture.

            Jesus speaks of venial sin in Matthew 5:19
            1 John 5:16-18 also discusses venial and mortal sin.

          • chrisleduc1

            Stop perverting Gods Word. Neither of those Scriptures make a delineation between sins that result in hell and ones that don’t. Shame on you.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            How is that perverting God’s word? I simply quoted it. 1 John 5:16-18 clearly states that some sin leads to death and some does not. Do you have another interpretation of this passage?

          • chrisleduc1

            We were talking about sins that lead to hell. You gave tha verse in support of your view that some sins lead to hell and others don’t. That’s means you are saying this verse is taking about hell. Right?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            What do you think this verse is talking about?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            Here’s a link that explains it all rather nicely, with citations:
            http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

          • chrisleduc1

            Just a simple yes or no please.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            I believe I already said he could be saved. Did you miss it?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Chrisleduc1,
            Are you ever going to address the passages of Scripture I provided that teach the oral tradition?

          • chrisleduc1

            I already did via all the quotes from the fathers, demonstrating their opinion of the primacy and superiority of Scripture and the fact that traditions were simply recommended practices, not doctrine. If that’s not good enough for you, I’m sorry. However the onus is on you to prove Paul defined “tradition” the way the RCC does. I’ve shown the fathers didn’t.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, now you are claiming that the Fathers trump Sacred Scripture? Strange, coming from an adherent of the man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura!

          • chrisleduc1

            Nope. I’m saying that the Protestant interpretation trumps the RCC and the fathers demonstrate that as demonstrate that the RCC has departed from the Apostolic faith.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            The early Church Fathers weren’t Protestants, Chrisleduc1. And, talk about a new interpretation! Luther and Calvin were 1,500 years late to the party.
            Now, Ss. Paul and John show that Tradition was part of the early Church.

          • chrisleduc1

            Have I quoted them? No. Shame on you. Bearing false witness… Who’s quote is at the top of this thread?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Did I claim that you quoted them, Chrisleduc1?
            You wrote “the Protestant interpretation trumps.” Luther & Cal were the first Protestants, no?

  • chrisleduc1

    Augustine said “what more shall I teach you than what we read in the apostle? For holy Scriptures fix the rule of our doctrine lest we dare be wiser than we are. Therefore I should not teach you anything else except to expound to use the words of the Teacher.

    De Bono Viduitatis, ch2. Cited in an examination of the Council of Trent. By Martin Shemnitz

    • CrossedtheTiber

      Augustine: “But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

      • chrisleduc1

        You’ve once again proved my point for me. 1. He says that what is not in Scripture are “observances” not doctrine. 2. They are recommended, and ordained (look up the original word translated ordained, it does not mean commanded). So the “traditions” which are not in Scripture are not doctrine but observances, and are recommend but not required. Thanks for proving my point.

        • CrossedtheTiber

          I have proven that Augustine adhered to Sacred Tradition. Just as all Christians did until the Reformation. This does not prove your point, unless your point is that Christians should observe and keep Tradition (big T)

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Neiman – are you sure you meant to up-vote me? I’m thrilled that you would, but surprised.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      Saint Ignatius of Antioch, who knew Ss. Peter, Paul, and John, said:
      “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.”
      Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 8

      Your citations prove nothing, as Catholics don’t reject the importance and inerrancy of the Sacred Scriptures. The Deposit of Faith consists of both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

  • chrisleduc1

    Augustine said again “it [the city of God] believes also the holy Scriptures, old and new which we call canonical, and which are the source of the faith by which the just lives and by which we walk without doubting while we are absent from the Lord.”

    The City of God book XIX ch1

    • chrisleduc1

      Augustine says again quote from among the things that are plainly lay down in Scripture are to be found all matters that concern faith and the manner of life.”

      City of God book 2 ch 9

      • chrisleduc1

        Augustine says again “I am not bound by the authority of this epistle because I do not hold the writings of separation as canonical, and I except whatever in them agrees with the authority of the divine Scriptures, with his approval but what does not agree I reject with his permission.”

        Contra Cresconium book 2 ch 32,32

        • chrisleduc1

          Cyril of Jerusalem says “… Concerning the divine and sacred mysteries of the faith we ought not to deliver even the most casual remark without the holy Scriptures nor be drawn aside by mere probabilities and the artifices of argument. Do not then believe me because I tell thee these things, unless thou receive from the holy Scriptures the proof of what is set forth. For the salvation, which is our faith is not by ingenious reasonings, but by proof from the holy Scriptures.”

          A llbrary of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church, the Catechetical Lectures of St. Cyril 4. 17

          • chrisleduc1

            Turtullian says “for wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will be likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions there of, and all the Christian traditions.”

            On Prescription Against Heretics ch 19

          • chrisleduc1

            And honest examination of the early fathers makes it clear that when they used the word tradition they either meant a summary of what scriptures contained or they were referring to Ecclesiastical customs which were not authoritative, as church history proves.

            It is also clear that the church fathers interpreted the apostles referring to tradition as ecclesiastical custom and not doctrine, just as the fathers did. Therefore the current Roman Catholic churches definition of tradition is far removed from what the early fathers meant. The current Roman Catholic church is a complete perversion of the early church.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I find it very interesting that you are attempting to use the Church Fathers to argue the Church. The Church Fathers believed in Sacred Tradition. Perhaps you are unclear on the four different ‘levels’ (for lack of a better term) of teaching in Catholic Church. Dogma and Doctrine are Sacred Tradition that have remained unchanged throughout Church history. Discipline and Devotion are things that can be changed. For example, celibacy of the Priests is a discipline. In fact, there are several married Priests. So therefore there can be traditions (small t) that can change over time, but then there is Sacred Tradition (big T) that remains unchanged.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I also think it’s interesting that you keep appealing to the Church Fathers yet deny and throw out Scriptures that they deemed Canonical.

          • chrisleduc1

            Why don’t you actually cite some resources? What did Jerome say? The Moratorian fragment? Origen? Athanasius? When was the current RCC Bible actually canonized? I can tell you, it was AFTER the reformers….. That should tell you something…. So please, do yourself, and everyone here a favor, state facts and cite your sources. There is a wealth of professional, academic, credentialed material available rather than just random blog posts. Please, show us that you have actually engaged with the scholarship.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            The list of canonical books (those authorized to be read during the liturgy) was formally declared at least 5 times in the late 3rd/early 4th centuries, A.D.: Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419).

            Source: http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/didnt-the-catholic-church-add-to-the-bible

          • chrisleduc1

            Now thats funny… I guess that’s why Trent needed to cover the canon again? Talk about drinking the kool-aid and skipping all the way to the 4th and 5th centuries. About the 2nd and 3rd? Theres plenty of evidence there, I already mentioned several. But you guys don’t want to discuss those… There is a very good reason the canon was discussed at Trent. Its worth being honest about…

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Who’s not being honest? It had to be covered at Trent because Luther and Cal threw out 6 books of Sacred Scripture. You did mention that Trent was after the Reformation, remember?
            In the same way, the Church didn’t have to produce a canon until abuses had to be addressed. I.e., the reading of gnostic texts during the liturgy (e.g., Gospel of Peter, Proto. of James).
            The canon produced in the late 3rd Century was to limit the liturgy to those books already considered Scripture (i.e., books that had been used since the Apostolic age), even though, some dioceses rejected some of the books (e.g., Apoc., 3 John).
            Trent, on the other hand, had to reject, and, therefore, condemn, those who removed inspired books of Scripture, with no authority to do so.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Yes, the council of Trent occurred as a response to the debates that the Protestants were having over the Scriptures and as a way to reaffirm the Canon. Remember, Luther wanted to remove several other books, including James, Hebrews and Revelations. So the Church felt it was necessary to hold a council to reaffirm that their Canon would remain intact.

            You spoke about Jerome. It’s true that St. Jerome was against including the deuterocanonicals. He’d been studying under Rabbis who’d thrown these books out of their Scriptures after the time of Christ and he was heavily influenced by them. However, he later acknowledged the validity of parts of the deuterocanonicals, including the parts of Daniel that are part of the deuterocanonicals. (did you know that the Protestants threw out parts of Daniel and Esther?) However, Jesus and the Gospel writers, along with the New Testament writers studied and referenced those 7 books that were also part of the Septuagint. I don’t know about you, but Jesus holds more authority in my mind than Jerome and anyone else who might have taken issue with those 7 books and the parts of Esther and Daniel. Now, you might say, “Well, Jesus didn’t quote from ALL of those books so some of them aren’t valid!” (at least this is an argument that many Protestants use). If that were the case, then there are many other Old Testament books that we would have to remove to base it on that qualification. Additionally, though I mean no disrespect to the Jewish faith, do we want to follow the Jewish authority on matters of Scripture or the Christian authority?

            Did you also know that all of these Church Fathers that you referred to believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist? Since you hold them as an authority on the deuterocanonical, do you also hold them as an authority on the Holy Eucharist?

            St. Jerome: “After the type had been fulfilled by the Passover celebration and He had eaten the flesh of the lamb with His Apostles, He takes bread which strengthens the heart of man, and goes on to the true Sacrament of the Passover, so that just as Melchisedech, the priest of the Most High God, in prefiguring Him, made bread and wine an offering, He too makes Himself manifest in the reality of His own Body and Blood.” “Commentaries on the Gospel of Matthew” [4,26,26] 398 A.D.

            Origen: You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received THE BODY OF THE LORD, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall, and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish….how is it that you think neglecting the word of God a lesser crime than neglecting HIS BODY?(Homilies on Exodus 13:3)

            Athanasius: “‘The great Athanasius in his sermon to the newly baptized says this:’ You shall see the Levites bringing loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And again:’ Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine – and thus His Body is confected.”,
            -“Sermon to the Newly Baptized” ante 373 A.D.,

          • chrisleduc1

            Jerome translated the OFFICIALLY Bible for the RCC. Let’s see what Jerome actually said the church taught. Oh and by the way, you forgot to mention that those counsels you mentioned above were provincial councils only.. Again, that why Trent had to address it. Trent had to go an contradict Jerome and what was taught for over 1000 years by the RCC itself!

            “These instances have been just touched upon by me (the limits of a letter forbid a more discursive treatment of them) to convince you that in the holy scriptures you can make no progress unless you have a guide to shew you the way…Genesis … Exodus … Leviticus … Numbers … Deuteronomy … Job … Jesus the son of Nave … Judges … Ruth … Samuel … The third and fourth books of Kings … The twelve prophets whose writings are compressed within the narrow limits of a single volume: Hosea … Joel … Amos … Obadiah … Jonah … Micah … Nahum … Habakkuk … Zephaniah … Haggai … Zechariah … Malachi … Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel … Jeremiah also goes four times through the alphabet in different metres (Lamentations)… David…sings of Christ to his lyre; and on a psaltry with ten strings (Psalms) … Solomon, a lover of peace and of the Lord, corrects morals, teaches nature (Proverbs and Ecclesiastes), unites Christ and the church, and sings a sweet marriage song to celebrate that holy bridal (Song of Songs) … Esther … Ezra and Nehemiah.

            You see how, carried away by my love of the scriptures, I have exceeded the limits of a letter…The New Testament I will briefly deal with. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John … The apostle Paul writes to seven churches (for the eighth epistle – that to the Hebrews – is not generally counted in with the others) … The Acts of the Apostles … The apostles James, Peter, John and Jude have published seven epistles … The apocalypse of John …I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books, to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else (Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1953, Volume VI, St. Jerome, Letter LIII.6-10).

            As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two volumes (Wisdom of Solomon and Eccesiasticus) for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church…I say this to show you how hard it is to master the book of Daniel, which in Hebrew contains neither the history of Susanna, nor the hymn of the three youths, nor the fables of Bel and the Dragon…(Ibid., Volume VI, Jerome, Prefaces to Jerome’s Works, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Songs; Daniel, pp. 492-493).

            Let her treasures be not silks or gems but manuscripts of the holy scriptures…Let her begin by learning the psalter, and then let her gather rules of life out of the proverbs of Solomon…Let her follow the example set in Job of virtue and patience. Then let her pass on to the gospels…the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles…let her commit to memory the prophets, the heptateuch, the books of Kings and of Chronicles, the rolls also of Ezra and Esther. When she has done all these she may safely read the Song of Songs…Let her avoid all apocryphal writings, and if she is led to read such not by the truth of the doctrines which they contain but out of respect for the miracles contained in them; let her understand that they are not really written by those to whom they are ascribed, that many faulty elements have been introduced into them, and that it requires infinite discretion to look for gold in the midst of dirt (Ibid., Letter CVII.12).

            What the Savior declares was written down was certainly written down. Where is it written down? The Septuagint does not have it, and the Church does not recognize the Apocrypha. Therefore we must go back to the book of the Hebrews, which is the source of the statements quoted by the Lord, as well as the examples cited by the disciples…But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Song of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant…The apostolic men use the Hebrew Scripture. It is clear that the apostles themselves and the evangelists did likewise. The Lord and Savior, whenever He refers to ancient Scripture, quotes examples from the Hebrew volumes…We do not say this because we wish to rebuke the Septuagint translators, but because the authority of the apostles and of Christ is greater…”(The Fathers of the Church (Washington: Catholic University, 1965), Volume 53, Saint Jerome, Against Rufinus, Book II.27, 33, pp. 151, 158-160).

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Saint Jerome, at one time, didn’t think that Judith, Tobit, et al, should be included in the canon (because he studied Hebrew under rabbis in Jerusalem). So what?
            He obeyed Pope Damasus and the Council of Rome, translated the Deuterocanonical books into Latin, and included them in the Vulgate.

            “Trent had to go and contradict Jerome and what was taught for over 1000 years by the RCC itself!”
            From what anti-Catholic site do you get this claptrap, Chris? They are deceiving you (unintentionally, I’m sure). They are selectively quoting the early Church Fathers.

            Jerome supported the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical parts of Daniel:
            What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the Story of Susanna, the Song of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume, proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I was not relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us. (Against Rufinus, II:33 [AD 402]).”

            Jerome also believed in the perpetual virginity of Our Lady, ya’ know?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Hello? Where’d you go, Chris?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            The deuterocanonicals were studied and referenced by Jesus and the Gospel writers:

            Matthew 6:12, 14-15—“Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive your transgressions.”
            Sirach 28:2—“Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.”

            Luke 1:17 (describing John the Baptist)—“He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers towards children and the disobediant to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord.”
            Sirach 48:10—“You are destined, it is written, in time to come, to put an end to wrath before the day of the Lord, to turn back the hearts of fathers towards their sons, and to re-establish the tribes of Jacob.”

            Luke 1:28, 1:42—“And coming to her, he said, ‘Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you!’…..Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
            Judith 13:18—“Then Uzziah said to her: ‘Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women of the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the Creator of heaven and earth.

            Luke 1:52—“He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones, but lifted up the lowly.”
            Sirach 10:14—“The thrones of the arrogant God overturns, and establishes the lowly in their stead.”

            Luke 12:19-20—“I shall say to myself, ‘Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!’ But God said to him, ‘You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?'”
            Sirach 11:19—“When he says: ‘I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,’ he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others.”

            Luke 18:22—“When Jesus heard this, he said to him, ‘There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.'”
            Sirach 29:11—“Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold.”

            John 3:12—“If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?”
            Wisdom 9:16—“Scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?”

            John 5:18—“For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.”
            Wisdom 2:16—“He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father.”

            John 10:29—“My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand.”
            Wisdom 3:1—“But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them.”

          • CrossedtheTiber

            This seems to support Sacred Tradition.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            This also supports Sacred Tradition. Nothing in Sacred Tradition is contrary to Sacred Scripture.

          • chrisleduc1

            How does this support what the RCC calls “tradition” by todays definition? This statement says, in essence, that if you cannot back it up by Scripture, do not receive it. So then, what has the ultimate authority? What is the standard by which things are to be judged? Scripture.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            God is the ultimate authority who imparts His wisdom to us through Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Neither of which is contrary to the other. They are two parts of one whole that lead us, through the power and protection of the Holy Spirit, into all truth.

          • chrisleduc1

            You contradict the Scripture. Shall I quote them for you?

            “from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”

            The teaches two things. 1. The Scriptures alone can give everything necessary to lead to salvation. 2. Scripture alone can make a man “adequate, equipped for every good work.” No need for your unwritten tradition.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            This does not state “Scripture alone.” It merely says that Scripture is helpful. You are interjecting something into this verse that does not exist.

          • chrisleduc1

            When Paul says “Scripture is…” That means he is referring only to Scripture. He did not say “Scripture PLUS..” he said “Scripture” and he did not include ANYTHING ELSE.

            Furthermore, he did NOT say it was “helpful.” He said is “the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” that is more than just “helpful” that is SUFFICIENT to lead you to faith. Then he goes on to say that they contain what can make the man of God “adequate” which is the word for “complete” and “equipped for EVERY good work.”

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Catholics agree with this passage, but not your personal interpretation of it. Yes. All Scripture IS inspired by God and IS profitable. We do not dispute that. This passage actually supports Sacred Tradition. Timothy would not have had a New Testament at this time so he had to rely on what was passed on to him through Paul and the Church (Tradition). The Holy Scriptures Paul is referring to are likely the Septuagint. In addition to the Holy Scriptures (which would have been the Jewish Scriptures or our Old Testament), Timothy was to rely on the teachings that were being passed along in oral and written form. Catholics are in full agreement with and adhere to Sacred Scripture, although we prefer to retain the whole of the Bible rather than throwing out books we don’t like.

          • Neiman

            Peter calls the writings of Paul to be scripture.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Saint Peter also said that baptism saves (1Pet.3:21).

          • Mark Hamilton

            Where in scripture does it say Sola Scriptura?

          • chrisleduc1

            Same place it says “trinity”

          • CrossedtheTiber

            So you are admitting that sola Scriptura is not found in the Bible, which then negates sola Scriptura.

          • chrisleduc1

            The words “sola Scriptura” or the concept?
            Just like the word trinity is not in the Bible but the concept is, the words sola Scriptura are not in the Bible but the concept is.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            You really don’t see how you just negated sola scriptura? If sola scriptura is not found in the Bible, just as you said, then you are adhering to a belief that is outside of the Bible and therefore no longer adhering to only that which is found inside of the Bible, and therefore no longer adhering to sola scriptura.

          • chrisleduc1

            So by your logic, the trinity is not in the Bible either. …

          • CrossedtheTiber

            We understand the Trinity through Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You did not address my point.

            Edited to say that though we have a human understanding of the Trinity we will never fully understand this sacred mystery.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Ahh – I see that you are off diverting attention away from this discussion on Sola Scriptura. Should we think that your avoidance of this subject is telling?

          • chrisleduc1

            I’m simply answering your question.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            I never saw where you addressed your conundrum regarding sola scriptura. Perhaps I missed it?

          • chrisleduc1

            Yes you must have. The words, like the word trinity, are not found in the Bible. However the Bible still teaches the concept. Just like the other concepts that are not worded in the Bible in the exact manner as they are enunciated. Just like the hypostatic union. Those words are not found in the Bible however the concept is still taught in the Bible.

            Fortunately your whole line of argument here further demonstrates my point. You are trying to say that since the words “sola Scriptura” are not in the Bible then the concept is self refuting. But there’s two problems with that. 1. Not even RCC apologists use that line of argument. That should tell you something.
            2. More importantly, you are doing what the RCC is famous for doing. You are taking a phrase and assigning it a defintion based on your own choice, rather than making sure you are understanding the original author’s intended meaning. Same goes for when the fathers used the term “tradition.”
            But again, not even RCC apologists try to take this line of argument as its just so intellectually shallow and dishonest.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            So rather than refute me, you take to name calling. That IS telling!

            The ‘concept’ of sola scriptura is not found in the Bible. The words ‘sola scriptura’ are not found in the Bible. Therefore sola scriptura is not scriptural.

          • chrisleduc1

            Oh, ok, so you’ve studied it to see if the concept is scriptural.
            So in your opinion, what are the strongest arguments for sola Scriptura. Show us your intellectual integrity in that you’ve altually engaged the arguments.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Why would I argue for something that is not in the Bible? I don’t really understand what you’re asking me? I do not believe in sola scriptura. It is not scriptural. Shouldn’t you be the one providing the burden of proof for sola scriptura since it is your belief?

          • chrisleduc1

            Its just like when I talk to an atheist and they said that they have studied the topic of the existence of God, and they feel they have made an educated decision based on the evidence available to them and the arguments put forth. I ask, “what arguments for the existence of God did you find most compelling.” Whenever the truth is that they haven’t really studied the topic, they can’t cite any of the arguments or say which ones they personally found most compelling, of the existence of God. They have just an unsubstantiated, ignorant, uneducated opinion about something that they really no nothing about because they’ve never actually examined the claims. This is true on a variety of topics – politics, ethics, various scientific theories, historical reconstruction. Either someone has an educated opinion, after examining the claims, or they don’t. And thats what Im asking you. Anyone who has studied the solas should be able to at least state what arguments they found most compelling, even if they didn’t agree with them. If you cannot enunciate some of the arguments that your opponent holds, then more than likely you are talking about something that you know absolutely nothing about. So thats what Im asking you. Surely you don’t have an opinion on something you know nothing about, do you? Cause that would be pretty ignorant, and your not an ignorant person, right? So do please tell, while we understand you do not agree with sola Scriptura, which arguments for it did you find most compelling when you studied it before concluding it was false?

          • CrossedtheTiber

            This is not some high school debate club where you can say “Ding! switch sides!” This is NOT the same discussion as the existence of God. I’m shocked and apalled that you would compare a heretical belief (sola scriptura) to a belief in God.

            I have studied sola scriptura in depth. Which is why I became a Catholic. Have you studied sola scriptura? It did not exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity, except in fringe heretical groups. Christians, both Orthodox and Catholics, have always adhered to both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition for the last 2000 years. I follow the Bible, which means following Jesus. Jesus established His Church and promised that He would lead His Church in all truth through the Holy Spirit and He does this through Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. He also promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church and guess what? He was telling the truth! The Catholic Church is still going strong.

            I know. why don’t you argue for the truth of Sacred Tradition? Since Sacred Tradition is something that is
            1. Scriptural
            2. logical
            3. inspired and ordained by God.
            4. historically proven through Scripture and the writings of the Church Fathers.

          • CrossedtheTiber

            Do you also believe in sola fide?

          • chrisleduc1

            I’ll let the Scriptures speak for me:

            I’ll let the Scriptures speak for me:

            Gal 3
            ” Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying,“ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse”

            Acts 15
            “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. ”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Me too:
            James 2
            “21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and se