Two Dead, Hundreds Injured as Filipino Crowd Throngs Idol Being Marched Through Streets

IdolMANILA, Philippines — Two people are dead and hundreds more were injured as the result of massive throngs that followed and sought to press up against a centuries-old statue of Christ that was marched through the streets of Manila as part of an annual Roman Catholic celebration called the Feast of the Black Nazarene.

While the large number of those filling the streets could not be counted with surety, police in the Philippines estimate that at times more than half a million Filipinos participated in the procession, which takes place every Jan. 9th in the city. Roman Catholics carry white cloths and seek to touch the wooding carving of Jesus carrying the cross out of their belief that it possesses healing powers.

“The brand of religious devotion that we see in Filipino Catholicism is based on a very strong desire of the majority of our people for a more immediate and direct access to divine help or power,” Manuel Victor Sapitula, sociology professor at the University of the Philippines, told AFP. “That is why it is sought through physical touch, sound, bodily experience, or any combination of these.”

The statue, known as the Black Nazarene for the figure’s dark complexion, is believed to have been brought from Mexico to Manila in the 1600’s. It was carried aboard a ship, and although the vessel caught fire, it was not destroyed. For the past 200 years, millions have flooded the streets as the wooden carving is carried through Manila for its annual feast day.

Those who observe the occasion, which includes men, women and children alike, usually walk the streets barefoot as a gesture of reverence toward the statue. This year, cuts on the feet and legs were among the injuries reported as the large masses crowded to be near the graven image. Others reported difficulty breathing, dizziness and other ailments.

One 44-year-old man died after having a heart attack during the procession. He was transported to the hospital for the medical emergency, but was pronounced dead upon arrival. Another man was later found later in the day after the event was over and was believed to have been stampeded to death.

The Black Nazarene was carried over 6km to Quiapo Church, where it came to a rest. Various volunteers and government officials flanked the statue as it was carried along and sought to bring order to the massive masses that pressed to touch the carving or have one of the officials touch their cloth to the statue for them. According to the Business Insider, approximately 300 volunteers were given diapers as they could not leave their stations, and another 2,000 to those on traffic duty.

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The Feast of the Black Nazarene occurred just days before enormous crowds are expected to gather for the arrival of Pope Francis on Jan. 15. Approximately 37,000 police and military personnel are being dispatched for the event.

As previously reported, the vast majority of Filipinos—approximately 80 percent—are Roman Catholic. An estimated 2.8 percent of the population profess to be evangelical Christians.


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  • Gary

    More catholic religious insanity and heresy. LOL.

    • Spoob

      Stop picking on your fellow Christians. It’s unbecoming.

      • Fundisi

        It is only your opinion they are both Christians, not objective, biblical fact. As they both have wholly different ways unto salvation, one must be wrong, the other right, one group saved, the other destined for hell.

        • Spoob

          No. It’s a fact. Promise. I possess a dictionary plus several history books. Catholics were among the first Christians.

          • Fundisi

            If you are talking about the Roman Catholic Church, it did not come into existence until between 350-500 years after the Resurrection. If you are apply the word “catholic,” small “c,” as meaning universal it was used much closer to the time of the Apostles, but did not refer to any ecclesiastical organization. Any denial of this is pure Roman Catholic propaganda and revisionist history.

            The small “c” catholic or universal church always existed independent of the Roman Catholic Church and the two are not the same.

          • Gary

            Are you Catholic? If so, why are you?

          • Spoob

            Why do you not know that Catholics are Christians? Most first graders know this.

          • Gary

            First tell me if you are Catholic, and why, and then I will answer your question.

          • Spoob

            I was raised Catholic. My mother was Catholic.

          • Gary

            Are you catholic now? If not, why?

          • Spoob

            I am Episcopalian, I disagree with the Catholics on some things, such as their position on homosexuality.

          • Gary

            Thank you. Now I will tell you why Roman Catholics are not Christians.
            In the New Testament we find no pope, no priests (as church officers), no purgatory, no infant baptism, no sacraments required for salvation, no veneration of Mary as the catholics do, no confessing sins to a priest, and no prohibition of heterosexual marriage for any Christian.
            And one of the reasons Episcopals are not Christians is their acceptance of homosexuality.

          • Spoob

            Please tell me where, anywhere, the definition of being a Christian would be affected in ANY way by a support of homosexuality. I thought to be a Christian meant to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

            For that matter, tell me why a belief in a pope, priests, purgatory, infant baptism, sacraments, veneration of Mary, confession of sins, or gay marriage would affect whether a person is a Christian.

            What you’re in fact doing is saying that unless I believe what you do, I can’t be a Christian. That’s the No True Scotsman fallacy in action, sir.

            As for all those Catholic beliefs, you’re also playing the Sola Scriptura game which I have told you over and over that I refuse to play. And I don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, it is itself unbiblical.

          • Gary

            I just answered your question about Christians and homosexuality in a post below. But it has been flagged for review, which means it will be deleted. There was nothing in the post that warrants deletion, but every time I get that message above a post it is always deleted. I will try to reword this post so that it will pass the censor, but I’m not exactly sure which words set them off.
            Christians get their doctrine from the Bible alone. The Bible requires marriage between a man and a woman in order to have moral intercourse. If God intended for homosexuals to marry, the Bible would say so.

          • Spoob

            No, YOUR BRAND of Christian gets its doctrine from the Bible alone. Many other Christians do not. In fact most others do not. Sola Scriptura is practiced by a MINORITY of Christians.

          • Gary

            I disagree. I believe real Christians get their doctrine from the Bible.

          • Spoob

            That’s because you are a Bible-Only Christian. Most Christians are not.

          • Gary

            I disagree with your last sentence.

          • Spoob

            It doesn’t matter if you disagree, it’s true.

            Christian denominations worldwide:

            Catholics – 1.2 billion
            Protestants – 800 million
            Eastern Orthodox – 225-300 million
            Anglicanism – 85 million
            Oriental Orthodox – 85 million

            Only SOME of the Protestants listed above would be Bible-only, putting them in the extreme minority.

          • Gary

            All real Christians rely on the Bible for their beliefs. Anyone who claims otherwise is not a Christian, even if they think they are. And the vast majority of people who claim to be Christians are going to die in their sins and go to Hell, precisely because they did not believe the Bible, and do as it says.

          • Spoob

            That is simply your opinion. You do not determine a person’s Christianity based on your own prejudices.

          • Gary

            My opinion is based on what I read in the Bible. But you cannot say the Bible is what your opinions are based on.

          • Spoob

            It isn’t about ANYONE’s opinion. It’s about whether or not you believe Jesus was the son of God, and died for us.

          • Gary

            How would you know that unless you read it in the Bible?

          • Spoob

            How do you suppose people made godly decisions BEFORE the Bible existed?

          • Gary

            Since we now have the Bible, that question is irrelevant to this generation.

          • Spoob

            The point is you have turned the Bible into an idol. Bibliolatry is the word for it and it is a form of idolatry. Jesus is far more important than the Bible.

          • Gary

            God does not do things that conflict with what is revealed in the Bible.

          • Spoob

            No one said He did. But God is not the Bible.

          • Gary

            You are saying God does things differently than what the Bible says. That is one of your major points. But that is heresy.

          • Spoob

            No, I never said that, nor would I. That is your interpretation or imagination, which is what is getting you into such trouble. You should not make assumptions.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            2 Peter 3:16, “as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.”

            Peter indicates here that one NEEDS to be taught before one can understand the Scriptures. In other words it should be read within a pre-existing context. Every one does. What is yours? Where does it come from?

            2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.”

            Paul indicates here that there are traditions of faith TAUGHT, some by word of mouth (tradition) and some by letter (epistles).

            1 Timothy 3:15, “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.”

            Here Paul understands the Church as, “pillar and support of the truth.” These things taught are upheld (pillar) and supported by the… church.

            Romans 10:17, “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.”

            The Church proposes the truth of Christ and our faith comes from that.

            You said you just read the bible and you know the truth? You were not taught? You sure you’re not reading the bible in ignorance? Be careful my friend lest your pride leads you to nowhere. Find “the Church” so that you can be sure that how you understand the Scriptures are not false.

          • pax2u

            Gary has decided that less than 8% of Americans are true “christians”

          • Gary

            The teachings of Jesus Christ are found in the Bible. The instructions for how Christians should live and what they should believe is found in the Bible. It is irrational for someone to claim to be a Christian, while dismissing what the Bible says, or while elevating doctrine from another source over what is written in the Bible. If you will not accept the Bible as authoritative, then we really cannot discuss what makes one a Christian.

          • Spoob

            Catholics DO follow the Bible. They might disagree with you on its meaning but they follow it faithfully. This has nothing to do with elevating doctrines. The problem you are having is you have made it ALL about the Bible, but that is YOUR rule and there are many problems with it.

          • Gary

            I disagree. Catholics add things to their teachings that are not found in the Bible, and that in some cases contradict the Bible. They are not faithful to what is written in the Bible.

          • Spoob

            Your information is seriously in error. The Catholics canonized the very Bible you say they do not follow. And they do not ADD teachings, I’ve told you this many times, their authority is NOT the Bible alone. They are not Bible-Only Christians. Their authority comes from THREE things – the Bible, sacred tradition and the magisterium. And they had those rules in place long before you fundamentalists came along.

          • Gary

            The Bible alone is the guide for real Christians. What you call “fundamentalists” have been around since Jesus was on earth. We are just people who believe the Bible.

          • Spoob

            No, fundamentalism in Christianity is less than 100 years old. In the beginning all there were were Catholics and Orthodox Christians. You do not get to decide who are “real Christians” basing your facts entirely on how much a person turns to the Bible.

          • Gary

            Sure I do. I only consider people Christians who believe the Bible, and behave like they believe it. Others are free to believe what they want.

          • Spoob

            But you do not get to decide who is or is not a Christian. Your ideas are completely abhorrent to many Christians I know, but I do not state that you are not a Christian. Only God can judge.

          • Gary

            You are deciding that people are Christians when you have no Biblical reason to make that judgment.

          • Spoob

            Because it is not based on the Bible. It is based on Jesus.

          • Gary

            Jesus without the Bible is a fake Jesus that you have imagined. Not the real Jesus the Bible talks about. You are a fake Christian because you believe in a fake Jesus.

          • Spoob

            My Jesus is real. He doesn’t hate gay people and Catholics. Yours is the fraud.

          • Gary

            But your Jesus is not the one found in the New Testament.

          • Spoob

            You are putting far too much value on your own opinion.

          • Gary

            If you can prove, from the Bible, that I am wrong about anything I have said, then produce the Biblical evidence and I’ll see if you have a point worth considering. Since I only consider the Bible to be my guide on theological matters, you will have to use the Bible to prove me wrong.

          • Spoob

            It is your opinion and nothing more. You do not understand Christianity or its origins. You are asking me to use “Biblical Evidence” which is basically you making up the rules of the game and expecting me to play it your way. If you are Bible-only, you have thrown away equally valuable church teachings and you are beyond reasoning with.

          • Gary

            It is your opinion that church teachings are equally valuable to the Bible. I disagree. If you cannot produce Biblical evidence for what you believe, then what you believe is nothing more than opinion.

          • Spoob

            The evidence you are looking for in this case does not come from the Bible, it comes from a proper understanding of church history, and you would have to be willing to admit that your denomination is less than 100 years old.

          • Gary

            I believe the same things the Apostle Paul believed. And Peter, James, John, and all of the Christians found in the New Testament.

          • Spoob

            So does every other Christian on earth, including the ones you hate like the Catholics. You are not more correct in your understandings than the others.

          • pax2u

            Martin Luther who hated the Jews
            Removed Jewish Books from the Old Testament

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            I suppose you find the Trinity in the New Testament.

      • Gary

        Are you a catholic?

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          LOL!

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Gary, the Grand Wizard Inquisitor has arrived! Everyone hide!

    • Joseph Essien-Obot

      Is the insanity the two people that died or the veneration of an image of Christ carrying his cross, a call we are all invited to, “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” – Luke 14:27?

  • Fundisi

    But isn’t the Roman Catholic Church all about idolatry? If they have Christ in their hearts and they are part of the Body of Christ, how does this give them “a more immediate and direct access to divine help or power than Christ in them?” I think a great fault in much of the Christian church today is that it is emotionally driven and not based on God’s Word.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      Loaded question.

      • Fundisi

        Let’s face facts, no matter what I say or believe, you are automatically against it, because to you sowing division, strife and hate against me is your stock in trade, it is who you are; if were not me, you might otherwise agree. You are filled with hate, division and strife making and an enemy of Christ.

        • Spoob

          Maybe people are against what you say because it’s so often crazy?

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          That is incorrect, because I have agreed with you on a number of things. I have upvoted you on those things.

          • Fundisi

            Then I apologize!

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I reminded you of this not too long ago. It seems you missed when I did that.

    • Spoob

      No, the Roman Catholic Church isn’t “all about idolatry,” that charge only comes from fundamentalist Christians who either don’t understand Catholicism or have been taught to hate it.

      • Oboehner

        Never mind the graven images behind the curtain…

        • Spoob

          Especially since no one’s worshiping them. Which I think is the whole point.

          • Oboehner

            That’s painfully obvious from the above story, just because two men are having relations with each other doesn’t mean they’re gay.

          • Spoob

            “Please take me to heaven Mr. Large Crucifix” isn’t in the standard Catholic mass to my knowledge.

          • Oboehner

            Hoe about: “Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.” Spoken while bowing to graven mary image.

          • Spoob

            I see nothing wrong with giving Mary the respect she is due.

          • Oboehner

            Due for what, being an obedient vessel? God is deserving of that type respect, humans are not.

          • Spoob

            How about for being the mother of Jesus, or do you not respect your own mother either?

          • Oboehner

            Jesus existed before mary, he created her, I did not exist before nor did I create my mother. I do not make graven images to my mother, I do not bow to graven images of my mother, I do not kiss the feet of graven images of my mother,, I do not give gifts to graven images of my mother, I do not pray to graven images of my mother, I do not put graven images of my mother in a bathtub in my yard, I do not make shrines to graven images of my mother, I do not worship graven images of my mother…

          • Spoob

            Considering that no sane human being has worshiped objects like rocks and trees for several thousand years and that for the entire time I was Catholic I have never known anyone who did, I humbly suggest you might be mistaken.

          • Oboehner

            I hate to say it, but you are indicating catholics are insane.

          • Spoob

            Just the opposite. I’m suggesting you misunderstand their actions.

          • Oboehner

            I really don’t think so, a shrine?

          • Spoob

            You say tomato, I say tomahto. You say idolatry, I say respect. It isn’t for you, me, or anyone else to say we know better than someone else what they are doing or believing.

          • Oboehner

            A turd by any other name is still a big pile of…

          • Spoob

            Call me old fashioned, but what about letting God do the judging?

          • Oboehner

            He already has.

          • Spoob

            Really? I only see yours. Not His.

          • Oboehner

            That’s the problem with catholics, they only listen to the pope. I’m not putting my existence in the hands of any man.

          • Spoob

            I never even mentioned the pope…you did.

          • Oboehner

            You don’t have to, I can hear your murmurings emanating from his posterior.

          • Spoob

            Your delusions, your rules, I guess.

          • Oboehner

            Back atcha.

          • Spoob

            Speaking of turds, is it really the place of a fundamentalist to tell the people who were the first Christians that they are doing it incorrectly? It’s like a Chevy telling a Ford that it isn’t actually a car.

          • Oboehner

            Arrogant assumption that catholics were the first Christians when they are really marians claiming Christianity – it doesn’t hold water.

          • Spoob

            Nothing arrogant about it. Read a history book.

          • Oboehner

            I have, the original churches were “fundamentalists”. If it was indeed catholic, your mary worship (among other things) would be in the New Testament – it is not.

          • Spoob

            Perhaps you should get your information from reputable texts, not from Jack Chick comix. Or from revisionist historians like Dave Hunt or Alexander Hislop.

          • Oboehner

            How about scripture? That is sufficient.
            Speaking of revisionist historians, you can pretty much put anything RCC in that box.

          • Spoob

            Scripture is sufficient, huh? Spoken like a true Sola Scriptura groupie. Too bad sola scriptura itself isn’t Biblical.

          • Oboehner
          • Spoob

            Gotquestions, seriously? Got any other notoriously anti-Catholic websites you’d lie me to visit? CARM, perhaps? Maybe Answers in Genesis? How about the KKK’s while we’re at it?

          • Oboehner

            You’ll have that as any biblical Christian website will be anti-catholic just as the Bible is.
            KKK? What church supported Hitler, hmmm… oh yeah the RCC.

          • Spoob

            Big on wacky conspiracy theories, are you? What fun.

          • Oboehner

            Ahhh, the old “I can’t argue with that so I’ll just call it a conspiracy theory” answer.

          • Spoob

            Well, throw me a bone then. Say one simple thing that is historically factual and sound and doesn’t sound like you read it in a Jack Chick tract.

          • Oboehner

            What is it with you catholics and your obsession with Jack Chick?
            I have offered factual information, you just run from it.

          • Spoob

            “Facts”.
            Ho ho.
            I can read (and believe) a dictionary. Can you?

          • Oboehner

            Then you would believe it when it states veneration (a word commonly used by catholics to explain what they are doing to their graven mary images) is synonymous with worship.

          • Spoob

            Not in my dictionary, Charlie.
            I respected my mother when she was alive. I kissed her. I gave her gifts sometimes. By your standards that is worship. I call that crazy.

          • Oboehner

            Put down the catholic dictionary and try one like Merriam-Webster which clearly says it is. Even “spell check” on your computer would tell you that.

            Do you pray to your mother? Did you make a shrine to your mother? Do you bow to graven images of your mother? Do you kiss the graven images of your mother? Do you give gifts to the graven image of your mother? Is mary your mother?

          • Spoob

            From Merriam-Webster:

            WORSHIP: the act of showing respect and love for a god especially by praying with other people who believe in the same god : the act of worshipping God or a god

            VENERATION: respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person

            Gee O’Boner, looks like you lose.

            No, I don’t do those things for my mother, but then, my mother never gave birth to the savior either.
            Incidentally, do you know what a graven image is? I’m guessing not.

          • Oboehner

            Oh look, right from the Merriam-Webster website:

          • Spoob

            Why are you looking at a thesaurus, to try to link words as tenuously as possible? Got an issue with the dictionary, which is the proper tool to use?

          • Oboehner

            Sorry that was on the same page as the definition of Veneration. Got an issue with the dictionary? Try looking up the definition of synonymous.

          • Spoob

            So the perfectly good and perfectly clear dictionary definitions right at the top of the page weren’t good enough for you? Had to try to stretch the truth instead by searching for as many linking words as possible? More to the point, 1 billion Catholics say they aren’t worshipping Mary, but you know better than them? Wow. Maybe you ARE God to have that kind of God-like ability.

          • Oboehner

            Pick and choose, pick and choose – the catholic way. I posted a screen shot from the dictionary, if you don’t like it, take it up with them mary-worshiper.

            “1 billion Catholics” I could probably find 2 billion people that say they do.

          • Spoob

            Sounds great, Mary hater. Find me a single one, and we can talk.

            A list of synonyms isn’t a dictionary definition by the way. I don’t care where you cut and pasted it from. A definition is a definition. You were given that the didn’t like it so went shopping for something more attuned to your bigotry.

          • Oboehner

            More denial sad little mary-worshiper, if you don’t like what the dictionary has to say you just dismiss it. My wife, a former catholic who saw the truth, will state catholics worship mary. I could find many, many more – even a former nun or two.

          • Spoob

            What your wife did, Mary-hater, is exchanged her tried and true Christianity for a hate cult. So of course she would lie about her former faith which it sounds like she never properly understood anyway. Fundamentalist Christianity is brain cancer, and you’re in stage four.

          • Oboehner

            “What your wife did, Mary-hater, is exchanged her tried and true Christianity for a hate cult.” Another example of catholic hypocrisy making hateful statements while pointing fingers elsewhere. You keep on making pilgrimages to those mary shrines and bow to those graven images, pretending it’s not worship *cough, queen of heaven, cough cough* and see how for that gets you. I’ll take true Christianity that I can back up biblically.

          • Spoob

            There is not “Catholic hypocrisy” going on. You’re attacking Catholics and you don’t like it when people fight back? Tough. Pick a battle that is more winnable then.

            And yes, for the last time, if people want to build shrines to “THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN COUGH COUGH”, let them. They aren’t asking her for salvation so who cares? If any Catholic I knew got one tenth as worked up about another denomination’s practices as you do about the Catholics, I would wonder what was making them so insecure. Don’t suppose you’d care to answer that?

            Catholicism – true ORIGINAL Christianity, since the year 33 AD.

          • Oboehner

            Only catholics do not regard building a shrine and bowing to the graven images therein as worship. Queen of heaven is only mentioned in scripture as angering God, why is that? Why when God commanded us not to make graven images and bow to them do catholics feel that is ok? I suppose you’d care to answer that?

            “If any Catholic I knew got one tenth as worked up about another denomination’s practices as you do…” Tell that to Luther and Jack Chick.

            Catholicism – paganism with Christian-sounding names slapped on since Constantine, ignoring the Word of God.

          • Spoob

            And you wonder why people accuse you of sounding like Jack Chick. Every single stupid charge, right from the paganism to ignoring the very Bible they codified.

            If a few Catholics want to build a shrine and bow to something that represents Jesus Christ, so what? Why should I care? I know they’re not worshiping the rock but who it represents, even if you can’t get it through your head. I’ve been in Catholic churches. It’s not MARY they’ve got up on that crucifix, it’s Jesus Christ. All the prayers, all the Bible readings, Christmas and Easter, it’s all about Jesus right down to the last detail.

            Have you forgotten that God also COMMANDS the creation of graven images? “And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

            Or this: “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.” Ezekiel 41:17-18.

            Mostly though I think you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting Catholics. I am always fascinated talking to people like you know know what I do and what I believe and what I practice better than I know it myself.

          • Oboehner

            “Bible they codified” catholic fairytale.
            “If a few Catholics want to build a shrine and bow to something…” and God forbids it, so what right?
            “I know they’re not worshiping the rock but who it represents…” Does any idolater actually worship the rock? The commandment cover any graven image.

            “Have you forgotten that God also COMMANDS the creation of graven images” Do show the passage in which he commands a mary shrine of graven image.
            catholics willingly ignore the commands of God, then attempt to justify the acts with some far-fetched BS explanation.

          • Spoob

            Not a “Catholic fairytale” – fact. I know you don’t like to be bothered with trivial things like historical facts and truth, but St. Jerome sorted out all the books which were claimed to be canonical and put them in the Latin Vulgate. It is this Latin Vulgate, which the Catholic Church declared canonical in the Council of Trent, 12 Centuries later.

            What God forbids is WORSHIPPING objects, which is not what’s going on, and the only ones who can’t see this are ignorant fundamentalists, so isn’t it time you pulled your head out of your posterior?

            “Does any idolater actually worship the rock?” No…which means it’s not a graven image. It’s a decoration or a reminder.

            “Do show the passage in which he commands a mary shrine of graven image.” No, it’s not necessary to do that, because whatever is going on, it’s not worship. You flat-out refuse to ask a single Catholic about what they’re doing, preferring to preach loftily about something you don’t understand and make no ATTEMPT to understand. Your charges are as old as the hills and have been debunked a million times, but I guess you were too busy judging and getting your panties in a bunch to read the memo.

          • Oboehner

            The catholic church declared their corrupted Alexandrian based bible.

            “What God forbids is WORSHIPPING objects” more catholic twisting and attempted justification, a graven image of something represents that thing, nobody worshiped the material.
            “No…which means it’s not a graven image. It’s a decoration or a reminder.” That’s why catholics bow to it and kiss it, more catholic twisting and attempted justification.
            “No, it’s not necessary to do that” Why don’t you state the truth, “it’s not POSSIBLE to do that. Then why don’t you post the passage in which Peter or Paul or any other apostle or Christian in the New Testament had a shrine to mary, or a graven image they bowed to or kissed or gave gifts to or worshipped. Or even where mary is mentioned at all other than in a historical sense.
            “As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” He replied, “Blessed RATHER are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke 11:27-28

            The only thing you’ve debunked is your intelligence.

          • Spoob

            “Corrputed Alexandrian based Bible,” eh? Pure, 100, Jack Chick. No basis in fact, nothing. Pure made-up BS. And you wonder why you get all the Jack Chick comparisons…I’m starting to think you must be an employee.

            Let’s think about this “graven image” thing logically, shall we? Why on earth would God care if someone carved a statue? Or created a painting? Or anything like that? I can think of only one reason why he would, which is if you created something and decided it was God and started to worship it. Now, I KNOW you are filled to the brim with hate, but I ABSOLUTELY DEFY you to find one human being in the past 2000 years who worshiped chunks of rock.

            With that in mind, I don’t see how you have a leg to stand on in this bizarre argument. Yes, they might bow. Yes, they might kiss. What are they in fact doing? They are showing worship TO WHAT THE STATUE REPRESENTS, i.e. God. Why would God have a problem with that? Why would ANYONE?

            And if Peter or Paul never mentioned showing worship to the mother of Jesus in the Bible, why do you think that means that it definitely didn’t happen? You’re guilty of all the logical fallacies, one by one. First it’s No True Scotsman, now it’s Argument from Silence. You’re like a guy who wanders through a minefield and manages to trigger every single one of them, then blithely wanders out claiming you weren’t hurt.

            Your use of Luke 11:27-28 makes no point, therefore I will not try to infer one.

            There is freedom from fundamentalist Christianity. If you are interested, I can get you some information.

          • Oboehner

            Your Jack Chick fetish doesn’t make your fairytale true.

            “Why on earth would God care if someone carved a statue?” You do the thinking for God now do you?
            “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:” Exodus 20:4-5 Cut and dried.
            “I ABSOLUTELY DEFY you to find one human being in the past 2000 years who worshiped chunks of rock.” My point exactly, no idolater made a graven image to worship that image, but rather to worship what it represents – like maryians do.
            “And if Peter or Paul never mentioned showing worship to the mother of Jesus in the Bible, why do you think that means that it definitely didn’t happen? You’re guilty of all the logical fallacies, one by one.” They never mentioned a lot of things, talk about logical fallicy, according to you they could have sat around smoking Bob Marley’s listening to Led Zeppelin albums – after all the Bible never said they didn’t. If it was something worth a pinch, they would have mentioned it so that “the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
            It figures a mary-worshiper wouldn’t understand Luke 11:27-28

            “There is freedom from fundamentalist Christianity.” It IS freedom, but if I wanted a false religion I could find my own information on mormonism, catholocism, jws, moonies, etc.

          • Spoob

            Well, since you and Jack Chick seem to make the same claims, maybe you can tell me where they originate from? It doesn’t matter to me terribly much which one of you made it up. You shouldn’t have any trouble identifying the origin. That will be very interesting, don’t you think?

            I will repeat my question, since it only generated a ridiculous non-sequitur from you: Why on earth would God care if someone carved a statue? Do you think God cares if we fry potatoes? Read books? Watch TV?

            “Exodus 20:4-5 Cut and dried.” Yes it is. Too bad you still appear not to understand what a graven image is.

            What is wrong with worshipping God? That’s what’s going on when someone bows to a statue.

            You’re not going to skate around this argument from silence you’re so guilty of. Tell me why you think you can use the Bible’s silence to mean that it is a forbidden practice. That defies ALL laws of logic – not an issue for you, I can see that, but still significant since the rest of us like things to follow the rules of logic and reason.

            I don’t know any Mary worshippers, I don’t think they exist, but even if they don’t understand Luke 11:27-28, it appears you don’t either.

          • Oboehner

            I didn’t make up scripture, as far as your Jack Chick fetish, not relevant.
            “Why on earth would God care if someone carved a statue?” Ask him, I didn’t write the commandment, he did – it’s there that’s all that matters. There are no commandments against frying potatoes that I am aware of, but there is one against bowing to graven images.
            The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. Yes it is. Too bad you still appear not to understand what a graven image is.
            “What is wrong with worshipping God? That’s what’s going on when someone bows to a statue.” So mary is a god now? Where in scripture does it state we need an idol to worship God? Oh that’s right it doesn’t, that’s just part of the TCC’s paganism.
            “Tell me why you think you can use the Bible’s silence to mean that it is a forbidden practice.” The Bible is NOT silent on this matter.
            Luke 11:27-28 is perfectly clear, you mary-worshipers merely choose to ignore it.

          • Spoob

            You’re the one with the Jack Chick fetish. You quote him practically chapter and verse, and then want the rest of us not to notice, as though you’re quoting some amazing historical secret when it’s a bunch of garbage.

            “Ask him, I didn’t write the commandment, he did…” And we come to the very reason your silly little religion is such a house of cards. Don’t think. Don’t reason. Don’t ask WHY God might have a problem with something. But if you’d take even a fraction of a second to think about it, you’d realize that it is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to live this life without making some kind of images or representations, from the time we learn to draw pictures in kindergarten right up until the day when we become architects drawing plans for houses and buildings. And so you live your life in fear of images, drawings and carvings completely missing the point that no one’s worshipping them and therefore God isn’t going to CARE.

            “The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole.” Yeah, and if no one asks it to take them to heaven, who cares? Seriously, who cares? Not me. Not God. Not anyone, just a few fundie morons who have no concept of what idolatry is.

            If someone bows before a statue of Mary, they are showing respect. You still can’t absorb this very simple concept. You are not showing respect to a stone. You are showing respect to what the stone REPRESENTS, that is, the mother of Jesus Christ. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that, and neither should any reasonable person. Which leaves you completely OUT, because you are the furthest thing from logical or reasonable.

            As for Luke 11:27-28, your problem is one of translation. “On the contrary” is faulty. The correct translation is “Yes, and additionally.” Nice try Mary hater.

          • Oboehner

            More with the Jack Chick babbling.
            “Don’t ask WHY God might have a problem with something.” When he says thou shalt not, I pretty much take that at face value, are you really that arrogant to even consider knowing what God is thinking? All you’re really doing is attempting to justify disobedience.
            “But if you’d take even a fraction of a second to think about it, you’d realize that it is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to live this life without making some kind of images or representations…” Lame excuse for your idol worship.
            “If someone bows before a statue of Mary, they are showing respect.” God said “thou shalt not” he didn’t say “unless you’re just showing respect”.

            You mary-worshipers and the whole “mother of God” thing, he existed BEFORE she was ever born, he CREATED her. All she did was house his earthly body – a vessel. Answer this, if worshipping (or whatever synonym you choose) is so important, why is it not mentioned even once in scripture?

            “The correct translation is ‘Yes, and additionally.'” BS, I went through at least 15-20 different translations and that was not there in any of them. I even have a catholic Bible in my hand and guess what it says? “RATHER”. You must have made up the translation you’re talking about. Nice try mary-worshiper.

          • Spoob

            More with the Jack Chick avoiding. Can you explain how you and he come to the same conclusions with absolutely no basis in fact? It always ends up getting traced back to the same conspiracy theorist nonsense. All roads with your arguments lead to Jack Chick, and you can only hide from this for so long.

            It isn’t justifying disobedience and I’m not questioning God. It’s the furthest thing from arrogance. What it is is trying to comprehend what God is really saying and what He means in a passage rather than just assuming. I am not disobeying God when I draw a picture. God wouldn’t have commanded something that is completely impossible for us as human beings not to do. What is far more shocking is that you are being a perfect little robot and just assuming everyone else is wrong and you’re right. This is why you’re in the minority and will always be. Moreover, I know I’m not worshiping an idol, and whether you like it or not, I know my own mind better than you do. Sorry if you don’t like that. It happens to be true.

            What God cares about is someone worshipping someone/something other than him. Since someone bowing before a statue of Mary doesn’t qualify, there’s no reason to assume otherwise. So why are you?

            You Mary haters are just looking for excuses to hate her. That’s all it is. You want more than anything to hate Mary, so you twist and distort and rant and rave and fume and come across completely unhinged. Facts are completely brushed aside. This is how completely off your rocker you are: You have the nerve to say that Mary didn’t give birth to Jesus. Here’s how it works. Mary bore Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore Mary is the mother of God. Yes, God existed before her. But since the trinity is what it is, you have to look at it this way.

            “Answer this, if worshipping (or whatever synonym you choose) is so important, why is it not mentioned even once in scripture?” For one thing, you continue to make ridiculous assumptions. I don’t worship Mary, never have, never will. I don’t bow to her likeness, and I don’t pray to her. SOME Catholics do. Not all. Just like some Catholics use a rosary but not all do. You seem to want to tar all Catholics with the same brush. Second point, it doesn’t say anything in scripture about not giving honor to the mother of Christ, so there’s no good reason NOT to. But I’ve warned you in the past about arguments from silence. “Where in the Bible does it say” is one of the stupidest ways fundamentalists start sentences, because there’s no point in even continuing them. The answer is always the same. “Nowhere. What’s your point?”

            And you have Luke 11:27-28 entirely wrong, not a surprise since your rigid and ridiculous interpretation of scripture is so often completely wrong. In this passage, Jesus is not reproaching His Mother, or slighting her as some would suggest. Rather, He is telling us that blood relations are not what is important. It doesn’t matter if you are a relative of Jesus – as if that were something to boast about. What is important is to hear the Word of God and obey. Nice try again, Mary hater.

          • Oboehner

            You invent Bible translations and you expect to have one shred of credibility? Then you try and equate bowing to, kissing, presenting gifts, and praying to a graven image to drawing a picture? That’s far beyond a stretch, since when is a drawing considered a graven image? Talk about ridiculous.

            “I’m not questioning God… What it is is trying to comprehend what God is really saying” There’s one. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,” That is pretty clear, it should even be to a mary-worshiper.
            Jesus existed BEFORE she was ever born, he CREATED her. All she did was house his earthly body – a vessel. Why, if she is so important, is she not mentioned except in a historical sense at all?

            You tell me I have Luke 11:27-28 entirely wrong, then proceed to fabricate a large pile of BS in another pathetic attempt to justify your mary-worship. The passage is quite clear, instead of worshiping mary we are to hear the word of God, and keep it.

          • Spoob

            Inventing Bible translations? Aren’t you doing the exact same thing? What you’re doing is far worse, you’re deciding that to be absolutely safe with God you damn well better never ever DRAW A PICTURE your whole life long, just in case. And still you don’t understand that worship means worship, asking someone to grant you salvation, give you everlasting life and not giving someone a present. Talk about ridiculous? Oh, you ARE brother, you’ve got it in spades.

            “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,” That is pretty clear. Yes it is, isn’t it? And how is anyone pertinent to this discussion breaking that rule? Do you still after all this time not know that for something to be a graven image, someone has to be worshipping it?
            “Why, if she is so important, is she not mentioned except in a historical sense at all?” Because she IS THE MOTHER OF JESUS, we respect our earthly mothers, why then would we not do the same for the savior? And if you don’t want to then DON’T, but why criticize others for it? You have no basis to do so.

            Yes, I’m going to tell you you have Luke 11:27-28 wrong, in fact I’m going to go out on a limb and tell you you have pretty much the entire Bible wrong. You are what happens when a self-taught Christian with a complete disregard for church teachings and history gets his hands on a Bible and starts to make up his own rules. Context means nothing to you, translation means nothing, there is no sense of multiple interpretations, there is only your own which is magically the one true and correct one. Out of zillions of Christians who got it wrong, you’re the ONE who got it right. Bravo! Well done you!

            Well it’s been fun, but I think the fundamentalist disease you’ve caught is too far gone, there is no reaching you, it has eaten away too much of your brain and there’s absolutely no point in continuing this discussion. But I know your type very well, as they say, arguing with a fundamentalist is like playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.” CONGRATULATIONS, Mr. Pigeon, on your resounding victory.

          • Oboehner

            “Inventing Bible translations? Aren’t you doing the exact same thing?” Ahh.. No.
            “…never ever DRAW A PICTURE your whole life long” again with the drawing pictures, NOT EVEN CLOSE.
            ” And still you don’t understand that worship means worship,” When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life, and he made a pilgrimage to Fatima to publicly thank her, but that’s not worship. Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” But that’s not worship, someone with a passing mention in scripture deserves that much adoration? Why, if she is so important, is she not mentioned except in a historical sense at all? “Because she IS THE MOTHER OF JESUS” That’s why she gets no mention? That makes no sense what-so-ever.
            “Yes, I’m going to tell you you have Luke 11:27-28 wrong, in fact I’m going to go out on a limb and tell you you have pretty much the entire Bible wrong.” That means a lot with your credibility issues, and your made up Bible translation.
            “complete disregard for church teachings” Church teachings = traditions of man – not inspired truth.
            “Out of zillions of Christians who got it wrong,” More embellished fairytales, bravo! Well done you!

            Jesus said that the truth will set us free. (John 8:32) However, He did not say that the truth would necessarily be easy to accept. It was painful for me to learn the information that I am about to share with you, but it was also liberating and it led to a closer relationship with God.

            As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I practiced Mary worship for many years without realizing it. The prayers and practices were so familiar. They were taught to me by good people, sincere people that I trusted. I prayed rosaries and wore a scapular and engaged in other “devotions” which I honestly thought were good and pleasing to God. Because of my lack of knowledge of the Bible and of Church history, I honestly had no idea that I was actually worshipping Mary.

            “If modern Catholic teachings and doctrines about Mary are true, then they will not be contrary to Scripture, the writings of the Early Fathers, or the decrees of past popes. For a devout Catholic to question these issues and put them to the test can be painful. It certainly was for me. However, it would be far more painful to have God correct us when we face Him on Judgment Day.” – Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

          • Spoob

            Pretty sure you will find that Catholics worship Jesus, not chunks of rock.

          • Oboehner

            I’m pretty sure kissing a chunk of rock qualifies.

          • Spoob

            Really, huh? Kissing means worship on your planet?

          • Oboehner

            Here on earth, yup.

          • Spoob

            Family gatherings must be interesting in your household.

          • pax2u

            family?, he can not call his father, father
            and if he honors his mother as the commandment states, that could be considered worship to him

          • Spoob

            I know. Everything he says is bizarre.

          • Oboehner

            So now the pope knocked your mother up? Your mother is mary? How old is she now anyway?

          • pax2u

            I will pray to the Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • Oboehner

            At a loss for words huh?

          • pax2u

            no, and I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

          • pax2u

            I forgive you and I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

          • Oboehner

            Don’t lie, you’ll be praying to your pagan queen of heaven.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you your hatred of Christians
            I pray that you find the Love and Peace of Jesus Christ

          • Spoob

            I guess asking them is out of the question, huh? No, much better to assume, even if it’s totally off the mark.

          • Oboehner

            Would you really have to ask? If it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, it’s a good bet it’s a turd.

          • Spoob

            Why not just stick to your snake-waving church then, and let people worship the way they want to?

          • Oboehner

            Swing and a miss, sorry. I’m quite sure you would be waving snakes if the pope said so.

    • The Lone Ranger

      Is Catholicism part of the Christian Church today? I think you answered the other part of the question .

      • Fundisi

        Roman Catholicism is NOT part of the Body of Christ! As to individual members thereof, I cannot judge.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Right, because we would not want to wish hellfire upon anyone who professes anything that remotely smacks of Catholicism in your mind, would we? You would be too much like Gary, taking this line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

          • Fundisi

            Again, by the way you pose these responses with false accusations and attempts at demeaning others, you prove you are not worth a reply.

          • Spoob

            I think the point Magister is making, and I agree with him, is that your sole reason for thinking Catholicism is not Christian is that you dislike it. Consider the thousands of years of history books that you ignore, not to mention the very definition in the dictionary which says they are a Christian denomination. Based on that it is difficult to take you seriously.

          • Fundisi

            Christianity is not subject to history books or tradition and certainly not the definitions of atheists like yourself, you being an enemy of Christ and the Church. My objection is not based on like or dislike, in fact there is much about the Roman Catholic Church and their rituals, their palaces, their princely organization, their liturgy and many other things that have strong appeal to the flesh, that make it attractive to fallen human nature. I oppose them because all their teachings are anti-Christ, their entire religion is idolatrous in the extreme.

            I do not want you to take me seriously, you are an atheist that has chosen hell rather than submit to God.

      • Joseph Essien-Obot

        Actually, the Catholic Church IS the Christian Church.

    • Joseph Essien-Obot

      The Catholic Church is NOT about idolatry at all! The Catholic Church is about salvation in the Sacrifice of Christ. This is the single most important reason by the Sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated every single day of the year. Our participation in his sacrifice is our salvation.

      Colossians 1:24, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

      You may not understand this but Paul is not saying that Christ’s afflictions are incomplete and we are called to complete them but that we are called to PARTICIPATE in his afflictions and so participate in his Sonship. This is how we become prophets, kings, priests and heirs with him. This topic is something else, it is not about rules and laws and quotes, it is about a living truth. I suggest you look it up.

      The use of images to bring our minds constantly into this focus has nothing whatsoever to do with idolatry. Thank you.

      • Fundisi

        I have already invested too much time and effort in opposing the multitude of false teachings by the Roman Catholic Church here with others and would not like to engage in them with someone else.

        1. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is idolatrous and apostate.
        2. After the word “but” in the third paragraph, none of it is scriptural at all. The Bible declares us to already be kings and priests and saints upon our new birth in Christ. This is what God has made every true believer, not something they earn by suffering or by any other means. It is true that as our Head, He suffers with us when we suffer and we believers suffer when other members of the body suffer, just as He and we rejoice when the Church is in unity and blessed.
        3. As to the Eucharist, Christ suffered and died ONCE for ALL and cannot be sacrificed again and again. The Communion is a remembrance only of what he did for us, He is not physically present, body and blood in the communion elements.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          Fundisi: “As to the Eucharist, Christ suffered and died ONCE for ALL and cannot be sacrificed again and again. The Communion is a remembrance only of what he did for us, He is not physically present, body and blood in the communion elements.”

          Removing the post-Reformation politicking over “re-sacrifice,” what do you have to say about the concept of the Real Presence?

          Time and time again you rail on these things but never demonstrate that you either know or try to make a distinction between that and Transubstantiation. You just naïvely assume strict memorialism because “memory” and “remembrance” appear in the English translation.

          • Fundisi

            As you choose to use demeaning and insulting words like “rail” and “naively,” you again prove you do not deserve any reply.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Wait a second, do you mean to tell me you were prepared to grace me with the reward of a reply? I would think that you are not in the habit of speaking to the devil, demons, “dividers,” and those with childish intellects.

        • Joseph Essien-Obot

          Spending one’s energy opposing something doesn’t necessarily mean that the opposition is on valid grounds.

          1. Your statement of belief that the CC is idolatrous and apostate is just that, a statement but I’d take it that some of your arguments for this position are enumerated in 2 and 3.

          2. You have very precisely revealed where your understanding of the Christian faith departs radically from orthodox Christianity, whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Chaldean and all ancient churches. It is this; after the ‘but’ in my third paragraph you have departed from the LIVING TRUTH to the abyss of legalism. I am a priest (one who offers sacrifice), for instance, only when I offer myself for good IN CHRIST, especially when it would be particularly difficult for me. I am not a priest because I claim Jesus to be my personal Lord and Saviour. Such claim only materializes in my action, what could be called my work. Being a priest is a practical thing but it has its source and its summit in Jesus the Christ. It is true that Christ suffers when we suffer and rejoices when we rejoice but to the extent that we suffer or rejoice in Christ or not we are his brothers or not. It is this likeness to him that makes us heirs to his Kingdom. How else would you explain, for instance, Jesus’ call in Luke 14:27, “Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.”

          3. I do not know how long Catholics and the Church will have to scream this for protestants who claim to know Catholic teaching to hear this.

          a) In the Sacrifice of the Mass Christ is NOT sacrificed again and again.

          b) It is Christ’s ONE SACRIFICE that is being re-presented to us again and again.

          There is a very definite and huge difference between these two statements. So, to start with, your premise is seriously off mark.

          As to the reality of Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist I will refer you to 1 Cor. 11:29, “A person must examine himself and then eat the bread and drink from the cup, because whoever eats and drinks without recognizing the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.” Simply put, he who eats and drinks from the cup MUST recognize the body of Christ or else receives damnation on himself.

          Thanks.

          • Fundisi

            Just because you have not been around, does not mean I have not to the point of exhaustion provided sound Biblical opposition to the many heterodox and truly false beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. To have to keep up this level of effort and that to no purpose is not a good use of my time.

            I am seriously tempted to offer many and sound biblical proofs of the many anti-Christ and heretical doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. But, to what end, what will it accomplish but result in a vain disputation, fall upon deaf ears and accomplish nothing. You and your fellow Catholics, IMO. are in bondage to deception and only the Holy Spirit can deliver you, but even then, you have to love Christ and the Truth more than the Roman Catholic Church and its false prophet, heretical Pope.

            I would ask you how I can be in an abyss of any form of legalism, when I reject the Law, reject all works of the flesh, clinging to Salvation and victorious Christian living by Grace alone and that in Christ alone, by His indwelling Holy Spirit? Apparently you do not know that to be bound by legalism, I would have to embrace the Law, the source of legalism.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Fundisi: “I would ask you how I can be in an abyss of any form of legalism, when I reject the Law, reject all works of the flesh, clinging to Salvation and victorious Christian living by Grace alone and that in Christ alone, by His indwelling Holy Spirit?”

            It would be very refreshing to see you put this into practice more often. There are plenty of SDA-style law-mongers who post around here on a regular basis. One would not want to get the impression that you are playing the game of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” because they also hate Catholicism with every fiber of their beings.

          • Fundisi

            You were a witness rejoicing over conflict when I have opposed the SDA most passionately here.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, I upvoted you when I saw you oppose those who were demonstrably SDA. Was Lisa SDA?

          • Fundisi

            Lisa was/is SDA by her beliefs, although she denies actual membership. So is by the way World Net Daily, Joesph Farah and all the ministers he allows to post there.

          • pax2u

            it is sad when two anti Catholics turn on each other, each hating Catholics, and each believing that only they are true “christians”

      • pax2u

        we should pray for Neiman/Fundisi, he needed to change his name when he was caught lying about the Bible to support another anti Catholic
        Neiman/Fundisi has no denominational doctrine, and his theology is to hate and lie about the Catholic Church
        It seems that he believes that only he is a true “christian” and makes it his duty to condemn all who do not share his hatred of the “others”

  • pax2u

    Muslims are Iconoclasts and describe religious Art as Idolotry
    some Christians agree with the Muslims on this

  • Spoob

    This is another story posted to cause discord amongst Christians.

    • Magister_militum_praesentalis

      It is some red meat tossed into the Evangelical and fundamentalist cages.

      • Gary

        Is there anything untrue about the article?

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          That is a loaded question, especially if you are asking a Christian who is not a radical, iconoclastic Protestant.

          • Gary

            Then you found nothing untrue in the article? If it is true, then why do you think it strange that Christians would view the event as an absurdity, and as something unchristian?

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, I said it is a loaded question.

          • Gary

            It is a simple question that can be answered yes, or no. If someone wanted to answer it.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It is not as simply when you frame it as a loaded question.

  • Truthhurts24

    Idolatry and abomination

    • Joseph Essien-Obot

      What part of this article indicates that an idol is being worshiped? The article says, “a centuries-old statue of Christ that was marched through the streets of Manila”. I really don’t figure where the statue translates into an idol. An idol is an object that considered god and worshiped as such. A statue is a carved or cast, usually life-size, figure of a person or animal. If you can demonstrate that the crowd considered this statue god and worship it then I’ll believe you. Until then conjecture doesn’t make fact.

      • Truthhurts24

        Those who observe the occasion, which includes men, women and children alike, usually walk the streets barefoot as a gesture of reverence toward the statue. That sentence said it all my friend they are a bunch of idol worshippers which is an abomination to the living God Jesus Christ, and the fact that they are roman catholics makes it even worse because that church is full of falsehood along with many perversions.

        Isaiah 8:20
        To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them

        • Joseph Essien-Obot

          Reverence and worship don’t mean the same thing.

  • James

    Becoming a Christian is not about idols or worldly things, it is about being spiritually born again. In the book of John Christ explained it to Nicodemus. That which is flesh is of the flesh, that which is of the spirit is of the spirit. Flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God. And the Word of God specifically warns us not to make ideals.

    Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

    Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    As Christians we are to make no idols.

    Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

    To worship before an idol is to worship devils.

    1Co 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

    1Co 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

    1Co 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

    • Joseph Essien-Obot

      John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Indeed. Have you been baptized? Can one be born again without water?

      To summarize the quote, what is Jesus telling Nicodemus and us? Unless we are baptized (washed by water) AND (pls. note the emphasis on “and”) unless we are filled with the Holy Spirit (washed by the Spirit) we cannot be saved. He goes on to caution not to confuse ourselves between physical birth and spiritual birth as to be surprised when he says we should be re-born. All the same, being spiritually reborn is not something that is a simple and straightforward thing.

      How this implies that, “Flesh and blood will not enter the Kingdom of God”, is not referenced here. Besides we do expect to rise one day in our bodies, obviously made of flesh and blood, and live forever in God’s kingdom, don’t we?

      An idol? What makes the statue of Jesus an idol? Is it being worshiped? How?

      Numbers 21:8.9, “Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.”

      2 Kings 18:4, “He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.”

      Maybe, I hope, you’ll realize that at one time the bronze serpent was a statue, an image and another time it became an idol. There are differences aren’t there? So, when God gave his commandment he spoke and meant idols and their worship which are usually obviously carved objects but having carved objects were not the point. The Ark of the (Old) Covenant was itself an object with statues of angels on its top. Certainly, it seems, your understanding and that of the Jews who received God’s commandments differ. God cannot contradict himself and the Jews did not see any conflict in their relationship with God in this regard.

      There is really no need now to comment on 1 Cor.10:19. Apart from the quote being out of context with the fact we are discussing here it is quite agreed!

      • James

        Read the rest of the chapter and you have your answer.

        • Joseph Essien-Obot

          What chapter for what answer.

          • James

            John 3……… Born again
            1Co. 15……. Life and death, the reserrection.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            If you would speak plainly we could engage.

  • Frank

    That’s sad. 80% of Pilipinos are lost pagans. Please pray for the salvation of these lost souls.

    • Joseph Essien-Obot

      Is it not interesting how the devil works? How after 2,000 years the Christians are now called pagans.

      • Frank

        Roman Catholics have never been Christians. The devil through the Antichrist church of the RCC is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. You have been deceived into thinking paganism can mix with Jesus.

        • pax2u

          so Chrisianity began with Martin Luther and his hatred of Jews?

          or the non historical Booklet trail of Blood, that is in a parallel universe

          • Frank

            Of course not.

          • pax2u

            so you can not even agree with your own bigotry

          • Frank

            Are you OK?

          • pax2u

            I am fine, but you can not agree with your own statement

            are you feeling well?

          • Frank

            You asked if Christianity originated with Luther or some booklet. I said of course not. Where is there any not agreeing with anything. I think you are not feeling well.

          • pax2u

            what Christian Group existed from Pentacost until Luther?

          • Frank

            There have been many Christian churches all throughout history. The catholic church has killed it is estimated 500 million Christians over its existence.

          • pax2u

            I thought it was a gaillion bazillion, is that what your jack chick hate comic book said?
            no wonder that you are not a part of any Christian Denomination, just you and the lunatic fringe

          • Frank

            Whatever the exact number is, it is a historical fact that the RCC has killed millions of Christians throughout its history. And as stated below and elsewhere I do attend church.

          • pax2u

            your sense of history is as weak as your theology
            Protestant England killed over one milliion Christian Catholic Irish during the Famine, the Protestant land lords export food, as their Catholic tenants died

          • Frank

            Catholics are not Christians. So no they could not have killed any catholic Christians. Sadly you do not know Jesus

          • pax2u

            That is funny coming from someone with an unknown “christian” church, does your preacher teach hatred of Christians
            I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • Frank

            You do not know Jesus.

          • pax2u

            and you decide who is a Christian. you are very sad,
            I will pray for your eternal soul, to my Christian God Jesus Christ

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            Millions!!??? I’d like to see this ‘fact’ if you don’t mind. It seems to elude me.

          • Frank

            Look into history. It’s wasn’t just a handful.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            I have looked. I have not seen. That’s why I need your help.

          • Frank

            Here is just one I pulled up that discusses the estimates. It seems pretty thorough. Like I said not hard to find.

            http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            Wow! Lecture notes full of conjecture. In a continent of a peak population of just about 70 million in the middle ages the Catholic Church killed 50 million, isn’t that incredible? Using works published in the late 1800s without reference to any other sources we now know what the Catholic Church was doing.

            It is also incredulous that St. Ignatius Loyola who formed the Society of Jesus otherwise known as the Jesuits and who himself went on crusades, was injured returned, found emptiness in fighting and on recovery dedicated himself to God through study and spiritual exercises, founded the Jesuit order with these aims and emphasis on education would turn around and be the leaders of violence. But anyway, even if they did, you’d need to corroborate these claims with sources outside of a particular circle.

            I also find it interesting that things that were of national political nature are attributed to the Church and these were things that other nations themselves were guilty of but were not attributed to the churches were the national faiths of these nations, like the Anglican Church in England, or protestant Church in Switzerland under Zwingli, held sway. Zwingli? Persecutor?

            Anyways, if you are interested in historical fact open yourself up to other sources of history and other aspects and you will soon realize that there is more to the world than what a closed system provides.

          • Frank

            It’s called estimates. The historicity of the persecution of the catholic church over it entirety is well documented. That was just one of the first pages pulled up through google. There are plenty of pages that have catholic historians discussing these things. Your flippant dismissal reminds me of the Iranian leaders and others that deny the haulocaust happened. Very very sad. Catholics are anything but Christians and have actively persecuted Christians throughout its entire history. And from what I understand they even ran a concentration camp during the time of Hitler but I have not researched that but came across several references through polar opposite sources. The history is there and the more I research the papacy itself testifies to these atrocities. The RCC is not Christian.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            I will ask, who are the Christians in history you are referring to? Let’s limit ourselves to time before the so-called reformation so as not to get ourselves in a murky situation since your claims include the 1,500 years before the reformation, a much longer period than between Luther and us.

            Is it the Gnostics, who denied the incarnation of God since matter is evil in their thought?

            Is it the Arians who believed that Jesus was a creature made by God?

            Is it the Palegians who taught that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. In other words, Grace is not necessary?

            Is it the Cathers who preached a mix of non-Christian religions reworked with Christian terminology. They taught that the world was created by an evil deity (so matter was evil) and we must worship the good deity instead?

            Is it the Albigensians who formed one of the largest Cathar sects. They taught that the spirit was created by God, and was good, while the body was created by an evil god, and the spirit must be freed from the body. Having children was one of the greatest evils, since it entailed imprisoning another “spirit” in flesh. Logically, marriage was forbidden, though fornication was permitted. Tremendous fasts and severe mortifications of all kinds were practiced, and their leaders went about in voluntary poverty?

            Which Christians are you talking about?

            And please, don’t make an absurd claim even more absurd by claiming that the Church ran a concentration camp during WWII. Did you know that the Church organised one of the most massive clandestine saving of the Jewish people in Europe by providing baptismal cards for hundreds of thousands of Jews to enable them escape Hitler? Monasteries and convents as safe houses for much of this purpose too? I don’t think you really know what is going on in the real world. I really think you need to read this http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/piusdef.html from the Jews themselves. I really hope, if not for anything, you glance through this short article in respect for the Jews that lost their lives in this sad episode in history.

            You seem to be engrossed in a world that is more anti-catholic than it is for truth. I pray God leads you to the light. Amen.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Still milking the Who Killed Who tactic, I see.

          • Frank

            ?? When have we ever had this discussion? We have talked of other things but it never veered onto this topic.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am pretty sure that I have seen you employ that tactic before.

          • Frank

            Nope. You must be mixing me up with someone else.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Oh, well, at any rate, please read the history of Müntzer’s Peasants’ War in lower Germany, the Zwickau prophets’ reign of terror, the actions of the Anabaptist cult in Münster, Cromwell’s invasion of Ireland, and the Thirty Years War to see that the non-Catholic side’s nose is far from clean.

          • Frank

            Yes. I am aware that many claiming to be a great many things have done horrible things. But just because a person claims to be something doesn’t make it so. Jesus warned repeatedly about this.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Claims to be what?

          • Frank

            Claim to be Christian.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What kind of church is it?

          • Frank

            What kind of what church is what? The changes are not showing as well as it used to the post you are asking about.

          • pax2u

            so no answer?

          • Frank

            That was the answer. There are plenty of historians outside of the false RCC. If you need them so badly go look it up.

          • pax2u

            what were the name of the Group of Christians between pentacost and luther?

          • Frank

            If you want to know so much you have google right at your finger tips. There have been a lot of Christian churches. You have your mind too focused on a man made denominational teaching rather than on Jesus.

          • pax2u

            sad that you make a statement that you can not defend, did your preacher teach you your history and your theology of hatred of Christians?

          • Frank

            I have nothing to defend. It’s easy history to verify. And knowing how you conduct yourself without a desire for the Truth I will not waste my time doing the research for websites that show the history you can do for yourself for you.

          • pax2u

            you have no theology other than hating and lying about Christians

            I will pray for your eternal soul, to my Christian God Jesus Christ
            you made the statement you defend your statement, the only thing I can find are anti Christian hate web sites, is that where you get your sick info?

          • Frank

            Oh? You actually tried doing research? Well OK. Oftentimes when needing to find information online one needs to refine their search terms and use different words and search beyond what initially shows up on the first page. For example when needing to find certain quotes from popes of blasphemous nature from of old directly from RCC sources. Google is not always the definitive math problem to find correct and current info on everything.

          • pax2u

            I can not research your theology since you have no denominational doctrine, The only theology you have is your hatred of Catholic Christians
            but I did find plenty of examples of Catholics being killed and attacked thanks for that suggestion, I will send them to you one at a time as I continue to find them

          • Frank

            Read the bible and let God be your teacher, not any man.

          • pax2u

            read the entire Bible including the Jewish Books of the Old Testament that Martin Luther removed
            It is not surprising that Martin Luther removed the Jewish Books, since he hated Jews, and wrote his anti Semitic Book, “on the Jews and their Lies” do you agree with Luther and his hatred of Jews?

          • Frank

            No I do not agree with Luther on his hatred of Jews.

          • pax2u

            do you agree with his removal of Jewish books from the Bible?

          • Frank

            The apochrapha was not considered written by the Holy Spirit long before he came on the scene. I have read them and they are definately not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

          • pax2u

            so a person who wrote a horrible book about his hatred of the Jews, Martin Luthter’s book
            “on the Jews and their Lies” speaks for the Holy Spirit, I do not think so

          • Frank

            What are you rambling on about?

          • pax2u

            the Holy Spirit did not use an anti Jewish Bigot to remove Jewish books from the Bible
            are you anti Semitic and anti Catholic?

          • Frank

            Once again what are you rambling on about?

          • pax2u

            The Holy Spirit did not remove Jewish books from the Bible
            a MAN who hated Jews removed Jewish books from your Bible

          • Frank

            The Holy Spirit never wrote those books. They werenot included as inspired by the Holy Spirit long before Luther.

          • pax2u

            the Holy Spirit does not use a hateful bigot Martin Luther who was an anti Semite and he wrote “on the Jews and their lies”

          • Frank

            Sadly you still talk of things that are irrellevant to anything I have written.

          • pax2u

            sad that you promote those who hate Jews, sad

          • Frank

            Are you OK?

          • pax2u

            I am a Christian I am fine,

            and I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • Frank

            You sadly do not know Jesus.

          • pax2u

            I know Jesus , and you are not Jesus

          • Frank

            I am not Jesus. And you do not know Jesus.

          • pax2u

            I know Jesus, and you are not Jesus sorry

          • Frank

            I am not Jesus. And you do not know Him.

          • pax2u

            I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for you and forgive you your hatred of my Christian faith, amen

          • pax2u

            Sorry, I know Jesus and you are still not Jesus

          • pax2u

            I know Jesus, even if you think that you are Jesus you are not Jesus, sorry

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            What features of the Deuterocanonical books lead you to make this conclusion?

          • Frank

            It’s been a few years now since I read them through as I also did the apochraphal supposed writings for the apostles and such? I did not make a listing of things. That disclaimer being made. Often times they completely contradicted teachings in the inspired Scriptures. The Holy Spirit bore with my spirit that they were not inspired by Him. I’m sure you could find papers online that someone made listings of such things but I was not compelled to do so. Only to read them and testify as needed of what the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Not really. I think you are confusing them with writings that came from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other purported gospels like the Gospel of Thomas.

          • Frank

            Not at all.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Then how about some specific examples? What you mentioned are generalities. One would not want to conclude that you reject the books simply because you associate them with Catholicism, right?

          • Frank

            As I mentioned before its been many years since I read them. 10-15 years back. I do not reject them because they are associated with Catholicism but because they are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. They have some uses for history but nothing more.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, that is all fine and dandy, but no one can tell that you have come to the conclusion that they are uninspired because you actually read them and investigated the history behind them.

          • Frank

            I read them. They are uninspired by the Holt Spirit and actually teach heresies. That you don’t accept that is of no consequence to me. As I told you, all I believe I was led to do was read them so I could testify to the fact that I read them and that the Holy Spirit told me they were not inspired by Him. Your belief or non-belief is on you not me.

          • pax2u

            maybe that they are Jewish books removed by the anti Jewish Martin Luther?

          • pax2u

            King Henry VIII of England, who took upon himself the role of grand royal inquisitor, took the lives of some 72,000 Catholics, many who were cruelly tortured.*

            Queen Elizabeth, proved herself the former’s daughter by putting to death more people in one year than the Inquisition had done in 331 years!*

          • Frank

            Just because someone claims a title does not make them so.

          • pax2u

            I appreciate the suggestion to research the crimes against Catholics

          • pax2u

            A 32-year-old Catholic woman was beaten to death after she refused to enter an evangelical church in northeastern Brazil. She was passing by the Church of the Kingdom of God when two pastors ordered their followers to bring her inside to attend a ceremony. When she refused, the group held her ten-year-old daughter while the pastors dragged her by the hair and beat her in order to “exorcise the devil from her.”
            – J. D. Bell, “Nuts in the News,” The American Rationalist, Nov./Dec. 1994

          • Frank

            And there are a lot of people that claim to be Christian, yet are not. The real issue is do you want Jesus or what some created being tells you.

          • pax2u

            You asked me to do my own research and I have, thank you

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            A simple answer like “Montanist Christians” or “Marcionist Christians” or whatever else would do. It would’ve been much shorter than your post and would’ve saved pax2u lots of google distraction. I wouldn’t mind you saving me the headache either.

          • Frank

            Lol. Yes, well pax just loves to be pax and it would do him some good to do some research.

          • pax2u

            I found many heretical groups that denied that Jesus was God, or denied the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is this what your “christian” church teaches?

          • Frank

            No

          • pax2u

            that is a relief

          • pax2u

            Frank makes a habit of making statements and not taking the burden of supporting his statements,
            the reason he would not provide any religious groups is that he would not want to defend their theologies
            he would not pass a freshman logic course at the local community college

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Who, Alexander Hislop and J. M. Carroll?

          • Frank

            I’ve already explained I do not read them.

          • pax2u

            Frank does not believe in research or supporting a statement made in error with facts,
            He just makes a statement and expects someone else to justify it

          • Gary

            Christianity began with the church at the time of Christ. But it was not the roman catholics.

          • pax2u

            what Christian Religous Group copied the Bible by hand in the middle ages?
            here is a hint is was not kinkos

          • Oboehner

            Or the RCC.

          • pax2u

            The work of copying the Scriptures was undertaken in earnest in the monasteries in the Middle Ages. Several thousand monasteries were established across Europe, and for many of the monks making copies of the Scriptures was their chief task. They became the true guardians of the text and produced literally thousands of magnificent Bibles. Teams of scribes and artists worked with parchment to produce incredibly beautiful works of art. A scribe taking dictation might use as many as 80 quills a day, and artists embellished the work with intricate designs and illustrations.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzz…. Too bad the RCC didn’t let the people have any in their language so they could read it.

          • pax2u

            so you reject history,
            are you a Christian?

          • Oboehner

            so you reject history,
            are you a Christian?

          • pax2u

            I do not reject history, and I am a Christian

          • Oboehner

            Then you are not a catholic.

          • pax2u

            I pray that you may one day be a Christian

          • Oboehner

            I pray that you may one day be a Christian

          • pax2u

            that day has already arrived thank your very much I am a Christian
            and I hope you are also

          • Oboehner

            Your not catholic then.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            Yeah, like if the bible cost $50,000 today you would have a copy.

          • Oboehner

            There are ways…

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            Oh, I see.

        • pax2u

          what Christian religious group copied the Christian Bible by hand during the Middle Ages from 1000 and 1500?

          • Oboehner

            What “Christian” group murdered those who did so?

            The decree set forth in the year 1229 A.D. by the Council of Valencia… places Bible on The Index of Forbidden Books. The doctrine withholds “it is forbidden for laymen (common man) to read the Old and New Testaments. – We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular.” “The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out.” Council Tolosanum, Pope Gregory IX, Anno. Chr. 1229

          • pax2u

            I see that the Obama lover is back

            Obama hates the Catholic Church, as does Muslims and Gays, your kind of people

          • Oboehner

            The church Council of Tarragona ruled that: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so they may be burned.” D. Lortsch, Histoire de la Bible en France, 1910, p.14.

          • pax2u

            did you hear about the gang of 80 plus year old Dominican Nuns beheading others last week? it must be true it is on the internet

            this is sarcasm for the weak minded?

            are you a Christian?

          • Oboehner

            “There was no village of the Vaudois valleys but had its martyrs. The Waldenses were burned; they were cast into damp and horrid dungeons; they were smothered in crowds in mountain caverns, mothers and babes, and old men and women together; they were sent out into exile in the winter night, unclothed and unfed, to climb the snowy mountains; they were hurled over the rocks; their houses and lands were taken from them; their children were stolen to be indoctrinated with the religion which they abhorred. Rapacious individuals were sent among them to strip them of their property, to persecute and exterminate them. Thousands of heretics” or Waldenses, “old men, women and children, were hung, quartered, broken upon the wheel, or burned alive and their property confiscated for the benefit of the king, and Holy See.”-Thompson – The Papacy and the Civil Power

          • pax2u

            are you a Christian?

          • Oboehner

            Gay pedophiles love the RCC, that’s why they become priests.

          • Gary

            You are so right.

          • pax2u

            I realize that you are not a Christian
            I will pray for you

          • Frank

            The RCC is not Christian. Copying the bible no more makes you a Christian than does attendance at a church.

          • pax2u

            so a non Christian Group copied the Bible for hundreds of years, your hatred of Catholics causes you to hate reality

            do not allow your hatred to consume your soul
            I will pray for you

          • Frank

            Many non-Christians have handled scriptures all throughout history for various different reasons. Including in today’s age people read and study it just to see what it says or to study who they oppose. Christians have been known to read even the Koran to have a better understanding of what Muslims believe when speaking with them and the like. Maybe you didn’t know that.

          • pax2u

            so no denomination is Christian?

          • Frank

            I do not promote any denomination nor do I declare that no denomination is Christian. Your focus on denominations is worldly/carnal.

          • pax2u

            so only your little unknown church is Christian

          • Frank

            And around and around in circles you go.

          • pax2u

            is your church your bathroom mirror, you are the preacher and you look at your congregation

          • Frank

            Around and around.

          • pax2u

            sad that your “church” teaches hatred of Christians

          • Frank

            Catholics are not and have not ever been Christians.

          • pax2u

            is that what the preacher of your unknown, little “christian” church teaches?

            I will pray for your eternal soul, to my Christian God Jesus Christ

          • pax2u

            your hatred of Christians is sick and evil

          • Frank

            I do not hate Christians. I even do not hate Catholics. They are pagans worshipping a false a Christ having as much of a need to repent and accept the One True Jesus as any nonbeliever.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you and pity you your hatred of Christians,
            I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul
            sad that you learn hatred of Christians at some unkown “christian” church did your preacher attend a real seminary, or is he just a do it yourself preacher

          • Frank

            The ironic thing of all of this is that in certain catholic controlled countries even to this day the Catholics will kill Christians.

          • pax2u

            Name those countries, provide proof, do not lie

            I will pray for your eternal soul, to my Christian God Jesus Christ

          • Frank

            I will not do all your research for you. One thing I have learned is to research, research, research. Then when I think I have the answer research, research, research. It would do you well if you ever truly want to know the Truth to learn how to seek.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Eh, I am thinking you do something that you like to call “research,” but which in reality is more akin to an exercise in cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

          • Frank

            Bah.

          • pax2u

            so you can not defend your own statements
            you would fail a freshman logic course at the local community college

          • Frank

            I doubt it. I’d give my career and scholarly achievements but I don’t want to brag.

          • pax2u

            then don’t brag, try being a humble Christian
            unlike Neiman who wants everyone to know that he wrote a 144,000 word thesis, then he lies about the Bible and has to change his name out of embarrassment to Fundisi, so much for the self declared Bible expert

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Neither do I give mine, but some people around here insist on trying to insult me by portraying me to be some kind of ivory tower academic. Either that, or they invert it and denigrate my intellect.

          • Frank

            The wonders of being anonymous on the net. Though you don’t always have to be anonymous on the net to experience that.

          • pax2u

            America had a history of the anti Catholic No Know Nothing political party and the Prostestant Ku Klux Klan that attacked Blacks, Jews, and Catholics

          • Frank

            Kkk was not Christian. Just because someone claims that title does not make them so. Jesus warned against wolves in sheep’s clothing. All the opposing doctrines. They cannot all be right.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Uh oh, Frank, you would not be pulling the No True Scotsman fallacy, would you?

          • pax2u

            KKK members were required to be members of a Protestant Church

          • pax2u

            A religious tone was present in its
            activities; “two-thirds of the national Klan lecturers were Protestant
            ministers,” says historian Brian R. Farmer

            At first, the Ku Klux
            Klan focused its anger and violence on African-Americans, on white Americans
            who stood up for them, and against the federal government which supported their
            rights. Subsequent incarnations of the Klan, which typically emerged in times
            of rapid social change, added more categories to its enemies list, including
            Jews, Catholics

          • Frank

            Yes. I understand that. But again just because someone claims to be Christian doesn’t mean they are. Wolves in sheep’s clothing.

          • pax2u

            so when Christian Protestants attack and kill Catholics your excuse is even though they claim to be Protestant Christians it does not mean that they are Christians
            I suppose that excuse could apply to anyone then, anyone who says that the are a Christian, and if that person attacks and kills another person who says that they are a Christians, it does not mean that the attacker was a Christian
            very convient, by your logic no Christian has ever attacked or killed another Christian

          • Frank

            Not at all. But if you compare the bible to the beliefs of certain people such as who we are discussing you will find that they are not obeying Jesus in serious ways. We need to follow Jesus not a church or a person.

          • pax2u

            we need to follow the entire Bible, not a man who hated Jews and removed Jewish books from the Bible

          • Frank

            I do not follow Luther nor Lutheranism.

          • pax2u

            follow the Bible, leave a church that lies about Christians and that is filled with hatred,
            no wonder your church has no denominational affiliation

          • Frank

            Your obsession with following man and man made theology is leading you astray.

          • pax2u

            why mention a denominational affiliation?

          • Frank

            You have an obsession with people having a denomination affiliation. Your the one that keeps on bringing it up.

          • pax2u

            you mention that your church has a denominational affiliation is that to give it some kind of credibility,

            but then you are ashamed to name it

          • Frank

            I do not promote any denomination. Period. Just because I attend a church that has a denomination is meaningless. You are too focused on man’s teachings instead of Jesus being your teacher and so is partly why you are so led astray.

          • pax2u

            sad that you would attend a church with a denomination and to think that their theology is meaningless
            does your preacher teach you the hate that you believe?

          • Frank

            That’s not what I said nor implied.

          • pax2u

            it is best that your hatred and bigotry has no denominational doctrine

          • Frank

            One day you will see the Truth. Hopefully before it’s too late.

          • pax2u

            I pray that you will become a Christian
            your hatred is consuming your soul

          • pax2u

            In 1844 in Philadelphia, the “city of brotherly love,” Protestants besieged Catholic neighborhoods with cannon fire and pistols, and also set houses aflame, because the Catholics had protested the use of the Protestant’s King James Bible in public schools. Martial law was declared, and it took two thousand federal troops to quell the rioting; eighteen people were killed and scores more were injured.
            – Michael Feldberg, The Philadelphia Riots of 1844: A Study of Ethnic Conflicts

          • Frank

            And again. Not everyone who claims to be Christian is. Just because you sit Ina garage does not make you a car. It just makes you one who sits in garage.

          • pax2u

            I thought only Catholics sinned?

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            So, Muslims copied the bible for Christians and Christians copied the koran for Muslims? Or what do you mean? Is reading and copying the same thing to you? Would non-Christians be motivated to preserve the faithfulness of the bible copies and would Christians be motivated to preserve the faithfulness of koran copies? Please, pay attention to what you write.

          • Frank

            I do pay attention to what I write and the precise words and wording I use. Scholars and philosophers for example that just study ideas would obtain various books of various teachings and philosophies. Through the years there were times when to get a copy you would need to copy it yourself or pay to have it copied or be blessed with a copy given to you. Many many copies of the NT for example in the beginning were obtained by people making their own copies. Part of the reasons for so many variants in manuscripts and such if you ever do a study of the origins of the NT and it’s manuscripts of the Koine Greek. Also I am sure we probably agree that Jehovah Witnesses are not Christians. They copy the bible and even have created their own translation. So yes. But the RCC has not preserved the faithfulness of the bible and have at times added to and removed parts of scripture.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            True. But to say that this is how scripture has come down to us is simply ridiculous. Why there are ancient copies of the bible in different languages are almost exclusively because of Christian communities based in these language groups and these Christian communities have been responsible for the faithful translation and copying of these manuscripts. It appears you do not realize the difficulty and complexities of translating and copying books in times past and the importance of communities to maintain standard. It wasn’t just an issue of sitting in one’s room and making a copy of something. These communities also were responsible to the larger Christian community.

            Why would these Christian communities maintain a certain canon or rule of scripture? Until about the year AD 383 when the Catholic Church set the standard of the New Testament of Christian Scripture there was variety all over the Christian world but after that every thing changed. The Old Testament was taken for granted and was not explicitly set and for this reason the Canon of the Old Testament scriptures continue to vary across Christian Traditions.

            Your claim that the CC has “at times added to and removed parts of scripture” is a credit that can only go to Martin Luther himself who apart from successfully promoting the removal of certain Old Testament books attempted to do same with the New Testament by removing Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation but later backtracked seeing that it was tarnishing his credibility.

          • Frank

            As a student of the Koine Greek for many many years I am quite aware of the complexities and historicity of biblical copying and translation over the years. I am no expert, but am quite aware. I am also aware the the RCC has repeatedly burned bibles, killed Christians for possessing one and didn’t allows Catholics to read the bible even stating they were not smart enough to understand it which has only recently had a change to allow them to read it. I am also aware that Jews, bishops and churches in the early days very clearly testified to the precise inspired listing of scriptures for the OT outside of and before the RCC.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            I don’t know where to start from but your charge that “the RCC has repeatedly burned bibles, killed Christians for possessing one and didn’t allows Catholics to read the bible even stating they were not smart enough to understand it” is a complete misrepresentation and misunderstanding of historical reality. Maybe this http://catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/charge.htm will help provide some alternative perspective and if your are really interested in the truth I’d encourage you to Catholic historical assessment starting with newadvent.org and even secular sources as well. When you have these varying perspectives you would then be able to draw a personal position as opposed to this regurgitation of this completely false bias.

            Your point about OT testification before the canon of 383 is not in dispute as already stated in my previous comment but your idea that the bishops and churches were ‘outside of and before the RCC’ only goes to betray a fact… you have not read the writings of the early Church Fathers yourself to believe that the RCC and the early Church Fathers belonged to two different communities. The internet these days makes their writings terribly easy to find and study, then you can make up your mind as to whether they are members of different communities or one community. Just google ‘early church fathers’ and enjoy.

          • Frank

            I was raised RCC and have read enough of those lying and twisting apologists of the RCC to have a clear understanding of their distorted and twisted history. I am aware of early church history and have read from early church fathers. They were not RCC. Your revisionist history from the Antichrist RCC will not fly with me.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            O really!!!?? Revisionist!? Wow! I also was raised “Catholic”, yes, Catholic family and all but I learnt NOTHING! Well, some useless things here and there. I wondered off into agnosticism and then atheism. What I learnt on my journey I would never have, had I not left, which I hope is something you are going through yourself but one can never know until the end. However, your refusal to even go through references I have linked to, maybe because it has something to do with ‘apologetics’, I suppose, just goes to tell me that your problem with the CC has more to do with grievance than a yearning for Truth.

            And. I know, everyone has read excerpts of the Church Fathers but not many have actually read their works. I have friends that attended pastoral colleges to become pastors and ministers in Protestantism and I have gone through their lectures and all what not and I know how crafty excerpts create a wonderfully deceitful perspective of them and their works. This same approach is applied to church history but that’s your call to make, self or Truth. As I said earlier, locking yourself within a circle for information will keep you just that, locked!

          • Frank

            I learned plenty from being raised in the RCC of its beliefs and dark history. Then I read God’s Word and ran from the Antichrist RCC straight to Jesus the only Truth, Way and Life. Their doctrine and apologetics and history, everything about them is straight from the pit of eternal torment away from the Truth. They have consistently persecuted Christians and called them heretics. They are full of dead men’s bones, twice the sons of perdition leading others straight away from Jesus. No one will find the Truth in the RCC.

            Praise God for always having His remnant to preach and live the Word in season and out. Christ crucified is not found in the RCC. The RCC is a false gospel. A false Jesus. Always has been. Always will be.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            You shouldn’t believe in the Trinity then, it’s RCC doctrine… Oh! don’t tell me, that history is revised RCC. OK. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true man? That’s RCC doctrine too. Since the RCC was responsible for these positions and being the Antichrist at the same time then you shouldn’t believe what the Antichrist declares for all Christianity to hold.

            I would like you to mention ANY Christian the RCC has called heretic and let us look at that person’s belief together, may be then we could have a real exchange of ideas instead of these abstract accusations.

            I am also interested in that “dark history” you mention. Tell me something about that too if you can. I’m very curious.

          • Frank

            Sorry for the delay.

            As for your Trinity comments here is an excellent site that deals with its history.
            http://www.christian-history.org/the-trinity.html
            It has a few sub pages and is quite an interesting read. My beliefs regarding what is commonly called the trinity is from God himself, not any church. He spoke to me about it the weekend I first read most all if not all the NT. He opened my mind to it. It was taught in the early church before there ever was a RCC. It can also be proven through the corrupted JWs bible in Isaiah, as a side note, which i discovered while doing an indepth study of it for that purpose. The RCC was not resposible for the teaching, though they may like to claim they are.

            There have been many through history the RCC has labeled heretic that were merely Christians that did not believe the RCC, the pope, infant baptism. There is a history in England of churches of Christ( not the denomination) from the very early ages that were persecuted by the RCC as well as the Reformers. Tyndale is noted to have even been a part of this during his time. Paulicians were labeled as Marcions by the RCC but if you read from the what was known as Paulicians actual writings they refute Marcions and Arianism and everything they were accused of except that if my memory serves me correct that they believed and practiced baptism by immersion or didn’t believe in infant baptism or something like that. In other words they believed in what the bible taught instead of the perversions that the RCC taught. There are plenty others that if you read what the actual writers of the groups wrote and what the RCC said they said and taught. The RCC was lying.

            As for the dark history of the RCC it’s well documented all over the web and it’s not like they deny it, though often depending on which part you are refering to they might lie about it such as mentioned above. They even talked about it while I went to catholic school up till 8th grade. Truthfully their whole history is dark history. Just the fact that they hunted and tortured so called heretics shows they had not Christ.

          • Joseph Essien-Obot

            “but if you read from the what was known as Paulicians actual writings they refute Marcions and Arianism and everything they were accused of”

            I wouldn’t mind if you could direct me to any of the Paulician writings before I respond. Haven’t been able to find any on my own.

          • Frank

            http://www.lordsrecovery.org/history/i.html
            http://www.traces-of-the-kingdom.org/
            http://www.christian-history.org/early-christianity.html
            http://www.studytoanswer.net/rcc/paulicians.html

            A bunch on early church history. Some mention the Paulicians. Some are devoted to church history as a whole. Christian-history.org though I don’t think they mention the Paulicians is a wonderful site written by an early church historian of numerous years. If you read it all you’ll be reading for a long time but worth the read. Has links to early church fathers books as well a loads of quotes and bible study. Traces-of site deals strongly with England specifically. You’ll see when you read them.

          • Frank

            Though I am not a part of this sites denomination the writer has some interesting history in that not all labeled Paulicians held the same views.

            http://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/who-were-the-paulicians/

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Frank: “I am aware of early church history and have read from early church fathers. They were not RCC.”

            This is interesting. What church fathers are you talking about and what church were they a part of?

          • Frank

            Various ones. I’m going through the Pre-Nicene book right now. The one with Polycarp in it.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Okay, but what church is Polycarp and the others a part of?

          • Frank

            They were not part of the RCC. Here is an excellent site that deals with all of this with tons and tons of sublinks with a lot of information and history.

          • Frank

            Oops. I forgot the paste the link to the site…

            http://www.christian-history.org/roman-catholicism.html#rccfiles

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I am asking you what you think they are a part of is. That was the point of my original question!

          • Frank

            The body. But that is not the RCC.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why does Frank include them in “the body” and why should that matter? There are other anti-Catholics on here who are so hateful that they would not include the church fathers in the body of Christ.

          • Frank

            Some of them were direct appoints by the apostles and were directly taught by the apostles or directly from the ones that were. They were martyrs who laughed at being eaten by wild beasts and burned at the stake. And from what I have been reading doctrinally are very sound biblical stuff agreeing with the apostles teachings.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Good. Hopefully you will encourage other Protestants and non-Catholics to read the church fathers rather than reject them out of hand because they associate them with “Catholicism.”

          • Frank

            I am not SDA.

          • pax2u

            who said you are, the Seventh Day Adventist usually hide with out indicating that they belong to any denomination, many hate the Catholic Church, you protest too much

          • Frank

            Nobody did. But I have an understanding about them.

          • pax2u

            that is an amazing fact

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            I said “other Protestants and non-Catholics.” What about the SDA?

          • Frank

            They just have that mentality you were refering to is all.

          • pax2u

            so are any denominations Christian Frank, or do you condemn everyone but yourself

          • Frank

            I think I’ve already established to you in the past I do not believe that way. Rebringing it up serves no purpose.

          • pax2u

            so you decide that over 1.2 Catholic Christian souls for Jesus Christ are not true “christians”
            but you have no denomination,
            it is best that you are alone, your are part of the lunatic fringe

          • Frank

            The Word of God declares they are not Christians. I stand on the Word of God. We have already had the discussion that I attend a church. Quite frequently, too.

          • pax2u

            does your “church” teach that Catholics are not Christians?

          • Frank

            What matters is not what a man teaches but what God teaches. And He teaches they are not Christians.

          • pax2u

            so you develop your own hatred?

          • Frank

            Poor poor pax.

          • pax2u

            I forgive you and will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • Frank

            You do not know Jesus.

          • pax2u

            Jesus Christ is My Savior, I am a Christian, I pray that you become a Christian also

            I will pray for your eternal soul, to my Christian God Jesus Christ

          • Frank

            You are no Christian. Sadly.

          • pax2u

            you have no denomination and the church of your bathroom mirror
            I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul

          • Frank

            I do not subscribe to a denomination. I do attend a church that has denominational affiliations. Which one is irrelevant.

          • pax2u

            I would think that any denomination would not accept hatred and lying about Christians, if the Church as a denominational affiliation does it teach that Catholics are not Christians, or is that just what your preacher teaches?

          • Frank

            Except Catholics are not Christians. And as I have already stated I do not hate Catholics. Nor do any of the 7+ pastors at the church I goto that I know of. I have not looked into whether the denomination has any stated official positions on Catholics.

          • pax2u

            of the 30 thousand denominations I am not aware of any of them that states that Catholics are not Christians as part of their theology,
            no wonder you have no denomination, and a church and a preacher that hates and lies about Christians
            ask the denomination and see if they embrace the hatred of your church, what is the denominational affiliation or are you ashamed?

          • Frank

            I have not researched whether any particular denomination teaches it as part of their theology, though there are plenty of pastors that do teach it. Though i do not follow a pastor. It is not hate to call out false Christians. A Christian is encouraged to contend for the faith against false teachers and doctrines such as against the RCC and JWs. I do not promote a denomination because Christians are not called to promote a denomination, for one. A denomination is a structure that is not listed in what God accepts for religion. The only religion God accepts is taking care of the widows, orphans and keeping oneself free of the world. He does not list a particular church or denomination in that short list.

          • pax2u

            you should not be apart of a church if you do not know or understand its theology or the theology of its denominational affiliations

          • Frank

            I know what the church I attend has for theology. You are strangely confused.

          • pax2u

            so you do not know the denominational affiliation so the theology can be examined or just ashamed of the denominational affiliation?

          • Frank

            I do not promote boards they cause splinters.

          • pax2u

            sad that you are ashamed of your unknown “church”

          • Frank

            Hopefully one day you will wake up.

          • pax2u

            It is best that you have no known denominational doctrine, but a theology of hatred of Christians, since you are part of the lunatic fringe

          • Frank

            One day you will see the Truth. Hopefully it is before your knee is forced to bow.

          • pax2u

            I pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ that one day you may be a Christian, and abandon your hatred of Christians, amen

          • Frank

            Hopefully you will repent of your mockery of Jesus before it is too late for you.

          • pax2u

            I love Jesus and pray for your hatred of Christians

          • Frank

            Youdo not even know Jesus.

          • pax2u

            you are not Jesus, sorry

          • Frank

            I am not Jesus. Though pope John Paul II never denied being Jesus here on earth….

          • pax2u

            No Pope is Christ on Earth
            but hateful bigots are willing to lie about the Pope

          • Frank

            They have made all sorts of claims such as that and even claimed to be God Almighty. And the Vatican even publishes documents on the web about all this. Though they gloss over it. But such are the lies of the Antichrist come to fool the world away from Jesus. I read the official book approved by pope John Paul II and he doesn’t deny it.

          • pax2u

            where has a Pope said that he is God to be worshiped

          • Frank

            I have provided links in other posts on previous articles. There are plenty of websites that show this in detail.

          • pax2u

            jack chick is not scholarship,

          • pax2u

            Pope John Paul II never said that he was Jesus
            sad that you lie about Christians
            I pray that you may be forgiven

          • Frank

            Oh there is so much you do not know about your beloved Antichrist RCC and popes.

          • pax2u

            I now a hateful bigot, and I will pray to my Christian God Jesus Christ for your eternal soul, amen

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Pope Frankius I has passed down his decree on pax2u by divine fiat.

          • Frank

            I am no pope.

          • pax2u

            you are not Jesus

          • pax2u

            I pray to see the Truth, I forgive you your hatred

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Hogwash.

          • pax2u

            so now Frank’s non denominational Church, has a denominational affiliation, I am sure that Frank is ashamed to name it, the unknown denomination probably does not have a doctrine of lying about and hating Catholics to suit angry Frank

          • Frank

            Not at all.

          • Spoob

            Please tell me where God says that Catholics are not Christians. I’d LOVE to read where He says that.

          • Frank

            The whole bible declares it as it does against all false prophets and teachers.

          • Spoob

            So in other words you cannot prove that the Bible specifically speaks against the Catholic Church.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Again, what kind of church is it?

          • Frank

            See other post asking about what you are refering to.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            No, there is nothing specific.

          • Frank

            It was a repeat asking about what church you were refering to in the original question you had. I’m using the disqus inbox to respond and it doesn’t show the full thread.

        • Joseph Essien-Obot

          Is this not interesting. The community that established what the content of the bible is, maintained its quality throughout the ages, declared it the word of God, taught that Jesus is God against the wish of the Roman empire, developed the idea of God as Trinity all of which you hold unwavering faith was never Christian? So, if Catholics are not Christian then how are you?

          • Frank

            They were not the originators of establishing what the content of the bible is. It was established outside of them by God. There were numerous churches outside of RCC that bore witness to the establishment of the entirety of the bible before and outside of the RCC. There was actually a discussion of this on another article’s discussion board dealing with the RCC and worshipping of Mary by chrisluc1 or some such nick similar in spelling. Also not hard to find out by a study of the origins of the bible and manuscripts in the original languages. I am a Christian by the grace of God in Jesus Christ directly from Him, not any man or church. Though I do goto church regularly to worship and fellowship with believers.

        • Magister_militum_praesentalis

          What do you mean by “paganism?”

          • Frank

            Paganism can encompass many different things. Pick one and chances are you can see it incorporated in the RCC.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, I am sure that one can see anything they want with a conspiratorial imagination and a smattering of paranoia.

          • Frank

            I have personally been involved in the RCC and various forms of paganism in years past along with having numerous friends involved in a wide variety of paganism and witchcraft. I don’t need any conspiracies.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Okay, but that does not necessarily call for correlating the two or manufacturing direct links to each other.

          • Frank

            True. The point being I do not need conspiracies.

        • Spoob

          I wonder, does it even register with you at all that your statement that Catholics are not Christians goes against everything we read in history books, internet sources and even the dictionary itself? When you say something utterly crazy and you have only fellow fundamentalists to back it up, is it not maybe time to acknowledge that you might have your head up your butt?

          • Frank

            The Word of God declares it repeatedly in speaking against them as it does all other false prophets and teachers. History bears this out.

          • Spoob

            History shows they were the first Christians, and with apostolic succession you’re essentially trying to fight a battle you cannot win. This is a simple historical fact. You are fighting reality. Catholics were the first Christians.

          • Frank

            No. History shows they were not the first Christians. They are pure Antichrist. They were never Christians. That is the simple historical fact. They do not even believe in Jesus. They have a false Jesus. A false gospel. And are under the leadership of Lucifer. They put tradition on equal footing and above the Word of God. God holds His Word above His name. The RCC says their tradition is therefore equal to God’s name and even above God’s name. They are definately not nor ever have been Christians of any sort.

          • Spoob

            That’s all just hateful nonsense with no basis in historical fact. It’s hate, and what’s more it’s only the opinion of your Fundie pastor, which you have chosen to swallow hook, line and sinker.

          • Frank

            God calls Christians to expose and refute false teachers and teaching and the Holy Spirit does this. If you think God promotes hate because He commands this and does it. Then you are in for a rude awakening one day.

          • Spoob

            Given the amount of utterly poisonous garbage and hate you believe, how on earth can you not even see that you yourself are a false teacher? I can certainly see it.

          • Frank

            I believe what God has declared. He is the Teacher not me. The only thing you see sadly are the lies the Antichrist has fed you.

          • Spoob

            The only lies that have been peddled to me are the lies of fundie Christianity and I have resisted them very well. You on the other hand prefer to revel in hatred, lies and bigotry.

          • pax2u

            frank has no denominational doctrine and a theology of hatred

          • Frank

            You have only resisted Jesus and the only gospel of Jesus. And unless you repent you will find a rude awakening one day.

          • Spoob

            I have done no such thing. I have resisted the gospel of ultra right-wing American fundamentalist Christian supremacists. And I am proud of that fact. Just as I would be proud of standing firm against the KKK or similar groups.

          • Frank

            Pride comes before the fall and a haughty spirit before destruction. You very much so have resisted Jesus and the only gospel of Jesus.

          • Spoob

            The pope is nothing more than the human leader of the Catholic Church, just as every church has a human leader. He does not contradict the teachings of Christ, he does not override or supersede the teachings of Christ, he is simply a servant of Christ. You have no excuse to lie or distort these simple facts in order to lie and deceive others about what the Catholic Church instructs. You are bearing false witness, a very grave sin.

  • Spoob

    I love how all over the world there are bombings and killings and torture done in the name of religion but a group of Filipinos carrying a cross is somehow worse and more scandalous.

    • pax2u

      I wonder how many fundamentalist Christians die each year being bitten handling snakes, tempting God

  • John Mark IB

    amen gentlemen Frank, James, others who know the truth this is really terribly so sad it’s just like Jesus said Matthew 12:39; Matthew 16:4 ; Luke 11:29 no sign shall be given but the sign of Jonas well that’s done and it still continues we (when we’re lost) meaning lost sinful humans, still want something more, (vanity of vanities, and being unfulfilled), are never happy, why because we haven’t yet been filled with the born again Holy Spirit of Christ Jesus Himself, and again the adulteress and perverse generation seeks after a sign, please dear lost Filipinos read the Word in your native tongue of Tagalog or Cebuano or Pinay? or The preserved Words of GOD in English the KJV, and please realize you don’t need to and mustn’t follow after false idols and false gods which cannot see or speak or hear your pleas, but rather as The Word says

    Philippians 4:6 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. so please be ye doer’s of the Word and readers and hearers but be wise as serpents and harmless as doves and leave this false madness, as well as the false self crucifixions that they do in the Philippines too, here is the best way I can help you out please read the following and get born again and He will fill you up with the peace and joy and love you will never get from this world’s false offerings, and may GOD bless you as you truly seek after Him, pass it on it’s the real deal solid Biblical doctrine, GOD bless you all with love joy and peace in Jesus name amen

    for dear catholic friends with all love and sincerity before it’s too late and eternity comes please read:

    http://faithsaves.net/bible-truths-for-catholic-friends/

    http://faithsaves.net/

    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36

    http://faithsaves.net/different-religions/

    for solid teachings and sermons please listen to DR. Thomas Strouse

    http://www.bbc-cromwell.org/sermons.shtml

    and
    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/

    • pax2u

      I believe that Billy Graham is a Great American, a Great Christian, and a Great Baptist

      • John Mark IB

        thanks for your comment, sorry I’m not much into the debating/arguing etc., although it’s good to have open forums for our discussions, etc., but here’s my 2 cents on your comment to me, I used to love this man big time and still do, but my opinion of his overall ministry has changed with his actions and his words as well, so well, yeah, he was used early on it would seem so anyways, mightily? if going forward and asking Jesus into my heart and one 2 3 repeat after me is genuine salvation ?? (see articles on the sites below the 1st and 3rd sites have articles on asking Jesus into one’s heart or sinner’s prayer for salvation is it biblical?) I did it myself and was never sure of my salvation, whole other story) but he fell into apostasy and even went on the apostate Robert Schuller television hour of power to proclaim that everyone was saved even thought they didn’t know it or even if they didn’t know it, just do a search for it it’s on the web so sad to see the once mighty fallen and given into the false apostasy, problem is the southern Baptist (of which I used to think was really strong on hellfire and brimstone preaching until I learned better) denomination is very worldly weak and contemporary given into blasphemies and just plain fallen away into the way of the world..thanks for your reply to me GOD bless you and in your spare time if you like very strong solid deep doctrinal theological articles by men who know the original languages and even a great in home via mail Bible study free of charge these guys are strong see http://faithsaves.net salvation for all peoples and http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
        http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com

        • John Mark IB

          sorry may you also have a blessed day week/weekend with love joy and peace always in Jesus name amen