‘I’m Now An Atheist’: Newsboys Co-Founder Renounces Christianity

PerdikisIn an article published by the faith site Patheos on Wednesday, one of the original co-founders of the popular Christian band Newsboys revealed that he has since renounced Christianity and now identifies as an atheist.

“I always felt uncomfortable with the strict rules imposed by Christianity,” George Perdikis, who co-founded the group in 1985, wrote in the guest post. “All I wanted to do was create and play rock and roll … and yet most of the attention I received was focused on how well I maintained the impossible standards of religion. I wanted my life to be measured by my music, not by my ability to resist temptation.”

He provided a synopsis of his life story and how the became involved with the group that is now one of the largest in the history of contemporary Christian music. Perdikis said that after he was kicked out of a secular high school in 1981, his parents placed him into a Christian school, but he “only lasted six months there.”

It was during this time that he met two youth who had an interest in drumming. And since one of them, Peter Furler, “had a bigger drum kit than the other guy,” Perdikis decided to hang around Furler. The two began to play music together.

But as Perdikis also played with Sean Taylor, a teen involved with a different band, he invited him to join him and Furler, and the three became a trio. Perdikis states that he later invited John James, who attended his family’s church, to join the group as well.

As time progressed, the foursome went from a cover band to performing their own music. Perdikis left the military and began to pursue music full time.

“The choice to become a ‘Christian rock band’ was heavily influenced by Peter’s parents, Bill and Rosalie Furler,” he explained. “As fundamentalist Christians, the only acceptable form of music was the kind that worshiped God. Bill and Rosalie were like second parents to me and, for that reason, I never questioned their advice.”

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The band later became known as the Newsboys, and after traveling with Whiteheart, went on to record their first album. Perdikis said that he co-wrote songs on the first two albums and toured with the Newsboys until he decided to quit in 1990 because he was more interested in music than spirituality.

“As I carved out a life for myself away from the church, I began my own voyage of inquiry into what I believed. My perceptions started to transform when I became interested in cosmology in 1992,” he outlined. “I learned so much and was blown away by all the amazing scientific discoveries and facts. When my marriage dissolved in 2003, I turned my attention to human psychology.”

It was just years after his divorce that Perdikis didn’t want to have anything to do with God at all.

“By 2007, I renounced Christianity once and for all and declared myself an atheist,” he said.

Perdikis then concluded his piece with taking issue with the Newsboys’ appearance in the film “God’s Not Dead,” and suggested that the group isn’t as righteous as their music.

“The movie demonstrated the pervasive attitude of Christians. They demonized everyone while giving a pass to their own particular brand of Christianity, making themselves look like fluffy white angels with perfect, synchronized lives,” he wrote. “The truth is—from someone who knows what went on then and what goes on now—the Newsboys aren’t as holy as they profess.”

The Newsboys have not yet responded to Perdikis remarks, but some Christians who have read the trending article opine that from the details in Perdikis’ piece, he may have never been a Christian in the first place.

“Unfortunately , it sounds as if this guy was never saved to begin with and was never interested in being so at any time,” wrote one commenter named Deborah. “One of the biggest lessons (and disappointments) for me since being saved is that not everyone who calls themselves ‘Christians’ really are.”

“Exactly. He never had it,” another named Victoria wrote. “You can read the attitude in it. He wanted to live a secular life and found that being held to a righteous standard was burdensome. It sounds like he was raised in it but never embraced it. There is no testimony, no love of Jesus in it anywhere. He wanted to live like the world and finally cast off the last cords holding him back from that. His passion was rock-n-roll, not the Lord.”

None of the original members of the Newsboys are currently with the band, but all except Perdikis still profess Christianity.


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  • Gary

    OK. By the way, no real Christians ever thought that noise you make was Christian music anyway.

    • Karen K

      Judgmental much?

      • wandakate

        As we judge others, so shall we be judged. ONLY JESUS is the real true judge. That authority was given to Him by His FATHER GOD in Heaven. I have entrusted all judgment to the SON…said the FATHER. We are NOT to judge others, it’s not our business, it’s between them and JESUS. We are to rebuke them in love and try to help them to see the error of their ways, but in no manner judge another.

  • Fundisi

    He was always an atheist, he is just now being honest about his atheism.

    Many people involved in so-called Christian music have turned their back on the faith, some even exposed for their homosexuality, drugs and immoral lifestyles. The greatest number were seeking fame, popularity and money, most wanting to be so-called crossover artists, to cast off the shackles of the Christian faith for even greater personal glory and wealth. While many started off trying to serve God, fame and popularity is a corrupting influence, a terrible spiritual narcitic and the Devil know show to deceive them long enough to lead them away from Christ.

    It is sad, having once tasted or been exposed to the Truth, to turn away and find there is almost no way back. How many young people did they deceive along the way?

  • Jose Paniagua

    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

    1 John 2:19

    • Anton Viljoen

      Thanx Jose !! true words

    • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

      Your quote is the MAJOR reason religion will never be the path to world peace.

      Most religions, as well as the ancient sages, spoke of benevolent reciprocity: The Golden Rule (empathy). Christianity puts it like this: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31.

      Even many, if not most humanists advocate something similar: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

      Yet, it is only organized religion that then builds wall of heavy, exclusive dogma that crushes the Golden Rule beneath.

      This is why I blog on posts such as this one. I advocate that all individuals should leave their divisive dogma behind and adopt only that single tenet, which is the same as universal empathy. It is the only tenet that can tear the walls walls that divide us and open the path to peace.

      • Solomon Jewel

        I find myself revelling in my status of “closet athiest” within the Christian community. It is giving me a deep sense of what women, blacks, draft dodgers, LGBT and others of my generation have journied through. The pain, embarassement (for both you and me), ostrciaztion, anger, . . . .
        I am coming to better know how deeply hurtful some Christians are. Some intentional, some not. And through it all is Dylan, “so get out the way if you can’t lend a hand for the times they are a changing.”

        Anyway, that aside, a question came up at Sunday School that I did not answer to my satisfaction. l thought the many Bible scholars here would like to take a crack at it. I know there are things beyond our understanding, but I think the lad needs a bit more than that. I am just looking for some opinions. The question was “Why did God inspire man to change the Unicorns in Job into different animals in later translations?”
        Thanks for your opinions.

        Sorry if that was all off point Max, I like reading your posts and just got carried away. Isn’t empathy really what many are trying to express with the word love, which has become so abused as to be unrecognizable? I think of empathy as a “sense” that can be honed with intentional practice, yielding deep insight and an enhanced ability to understand others, which leads to acceptance, regardless of what that understanding reveals.

        And what about this. Their spiritual education is known to us as brain washing, Our spiritual education is known to them as brain washing.
        The Good Lord knows we must be right.

        • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

          Hello Solomon. Very thoughtful and well worded response, as usual. I always appreciate your insights.

          I am surprised that so far I’ve gotten no response from the fervent believers on this post.

          Yes, it is rather painful, and sad, to get angry, bitter, and uncivil retorts from those who profess to follow the “Prince of Peace.” But, I no longer get angry, just sad and often a bit frustrated, but I try to engage as much as possible. Certainly I get ostracized, but much more often, I just get abuse.

          Unfortunately, the intractable attitude of many believers reminds me of Shakespeare’s character, Murellus, who, in frustration, remarked, “You blocks, you stones, you worse than senseless things.”

          This is not necessarily a condescension, but an observation. It is another validation of just how strong early childhood mental conditioning and later, political and religious propaganda (ala Joseph Goebbels) can be when folks place faith over facts, faith over science, faith over constitutional law, faith over humanity. The neoconservatives recognized this fact long ago and now use it with astonishing success as a means to get votes, power, and wealth (ala Ayn Rand).

          I am surprised about the Unicorn translation incident. I did considerable research in biblical literality (errant and seemingly purposeful editing of translations, as well as archaeological findings that debunk many Bible stories).

          Further, I paid particular attention to Job, since Carl Jung’s analysis of Yahweh’s mental state in his essay, “Answer to Job,” was an important part of a chapter in my novel, “The Empathy Imperative.” Yet, I never came across the unicorn translation incident. Thanks for the info. I will certainly read more on that today.

          I very much like your unicorn question. My favorite questions to Christians concerns the pivotal and vital translation of Isaiah’s time-prophesy in Isaiah 7-14 where he prophesied that a child will be born of an “almah,” which means “young woman” in ancient Hebrew. Later translators used the Greek word, “parthenos,” which means “virgin.”

          Now, Christians will quickly point out that “almah” can also mean “virgin.” After all, many Christian scholars on websites and in books confirm that point.

          However, the ancient Hebrews were meticulous in specificity. It is highly likely that if Isaiah had meant to say, “virgin,” he would have written “bethulah” which, in ancient Hebrew, means specifically, “virgin.”

          Your question and mine brings the believer to the point of cognitive dissonance, a contradiction in the mind that tends to repel the one holding two opposing views from seeking a valid logical solution.

          • Solomon Jewel

            Wow, conversation without name calling, innuendo and dismissiveness, where will it ever end? Good words, your mention
            of anger put me in mind of Jonathan Hait’s “The Righteous Mind”, I suggest it highly. In it he says,

            “It felt good to be released from the partisan anger. And once I was no longer angry, I was no longer committed to reach the conclusion that righteous anger demands, we are right, they are wrong.”

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Good point. For a few years I worked the SodaHead blog where many self-righteous folks, mostly conservatives, abide. Of course there were/are some liberals who favor the condescension and other insults as well.

            I was that way at first, but then found that coolness, civility, and facts were critical to an informative debate, and it made me feel better as well.

            Basically, I had to recall my studies of one of my favorite philosophers, John Stuart Mill, who advocated true freedom in the propagation of personal opinions such that every person has the opportunity to add something positive to the collective pool of ideas. Too, if a person’s speech is found to be dangerous to society, then society will know whom to watch and may even glean something positive from the rhetoric.

            “If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.” ― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

            This does not mean, of course, that I am against the Fairness Doctrine. The airwaves are supposed to be owned by the public. No broadcaster should be allowed to deny, in his broadcasts, to propagate propaganda without rebuttal. It is the public’s right to hear all sides of an argument, and from which form or reshape their own opinions.

          • GibbyD

            How is it a ” sign ” if a “young woman” conceives and gives birth to a son ? If a virgin gives birth to a Son and that Son goes on and fulfills over 333 prophecies about Himself , some of those prophecies written thousands of years before His birth , then I would call that a sign and signs . The immediate type is fulfilled in the next chapter but it is only a shadow of that One Who will ultimately fulfill it in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ . Mahershalalhashbaz was NOT the long view object, but just as much of the Old testament is only a shadow of things to come, Mahershalalhashbaz was just a type . “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.( God with us)” ( Isaiah 7:14 )KJB. Someone else has already written more about it at the following site —–>http://ntresources.com/blog/documents/isa7_14.pdf

          • BJ4..u2

            When something intends to tell the story of prophesy fulfilled it will be written in such a manner – whether it is true or not is an entirely different question.

          • GibbyD

            And the 333 prophecies that are fulfilled by The LORD Jesus Christ , including Isaiah 7:14, are so written . There is no question , only acceptance and or rejection of The One Who wrote them and then fulfilled them .

          • BJ4..u2

            It sounds as though you believe that God wrote the Bible. As one who does not share that belief with you, my acceptance and/or rejection is of the words of the men who wrote the books included in it.

          • GibbyD

            “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” ( 2 Timothy 3:16)KJB. You believe that It is God’s Word , it is just that you refuse and do not want to submit to It .

          • BJ4..u2

            Kindly refrain from trying to tell me what I do or do not believe or am willing or unwilling to submit to. Have you heard the saying, “It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt”?

          • GibbyD

            “Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.” (Proverbs 26:5)KJB. What you espouse is the one world order and one world religion so that ” everyone can get along and live in peace” . The problem with that is that that is the Anti-Christ set up system that will be in place before that Great and Terrible Day of The LORD. Jesus said , “Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:5-12)KJB.
            — You really do not want to be around on this Earth when these things come to pass. It would be much better for you and all that you be willing to stand for The Word of God and The Testimony of The LORD Jesus Christ .
            “Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.” ( Hebrews 13:13)KJB.

            ” Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
            16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk inthem; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
            17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
            18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18)KJB

            “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
            19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
            20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
            25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
            26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.( I Corinthians 1

      • GibbyD

        and since you or anybody else is able to to keep ” The Golden Rule ” , what are you gonna do ? The Gospel aims at the heart of that problem . “repentance toward God ( Holy Love) and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ( God Incarnate)” ( Acts 20:21; John 4:24; I John 4:7,8; John 1:1-14)KJB. Jesus said , “Ye MUST be born again ” ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB.

        • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

          First, I appreciate your civility. It makes for a good debate.

          You, however, make my case. Reread what I said. I said that while most religions profess the GR, they toss it out in favor of exclusive doctrine, which is exactly what you are doing.

          Here is the gestalt of Reason when it comes to determining which religion is right:

          The vast majority of all religious people believe the religion they were TAUGHT to believe from tothood. It is usually the religion of their parents and most often the predominant religion of the society into which they were born.

          Because of that indisputable fact, religious belief is most often a function of happenstance of birth rather than of truth.

          For example, had you been born in a fundamentalist Muslim society and to fundamentalist Muslim parents, there is a very high probability that you would have been taught fundamentalist Islam and would believe it all your life with every molecule of fervor you now believe Christianity. It would be THE TRUTH and you would be quoting me from the Quran to prove your faith is true.

          This logic was the very reason I evolved from being (almost) a fundamentalist Christian. It’s truth is indisputable. I realized that I had no more right to believe the Bible than a Muslim had to believe the Quran. It is what caused me to go back to school and study philosophy, world religions, and paleoanthropology. My eyes were opened, and i now profess only the greatest of tenets–the Golden Rule.

          • GibbyD

            Maybe this is relevant to some of the things you mentioned about who becomes a Christian and why. Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, “predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.

            For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.

            According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world — one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.

            But at that point, only one-fifth of the worlds Christians will be non-Hispanic whites. The typical Christian will be a woman living in a Nigerian village or in a Brazilian shantytown.

            And these changes will be more than demographic. Jenkins points out that who he calls “Southern Christians” — those living in Africa, Latin America, and parts of Asia — are far more conservative, theologically and morally, than their counterparts in the West.

            Thus, as Christianity becomes more Southern, it becomes more biblically orthodox. While people like Bishop John Shelby Spong and Templeton Prize winner Arthur Peacock insist that Christianity must abandon its historic beliefs to survive, it is precisely these historic beliefs that attract our Southern brethren.

            And thats why in Spong and Peacocks own Anglican Communion African bishops are ordaining missionaries to re-convert the West.

            This story of Christianitys explosive growth is one of the great untold stories of our time — a story that North American Christians need to hear.

            Its a story that repudiates those who say that Christians must compromise their beliefs to remain relevant. The opposite is the case. Biblical orthodoxy is winning converts while churches that have lost their biblical moorings languish.

            This shift of Christianitys “center of gravity” is also a reminder to Western Christians that we are not the whole show, and we have to start thinking differently about ourselves. We are part of a much larger community: the worldwide Church.

            Finally, its a sign that, no matter how bad things seem at home, God is at work throughout the world. Everywhere its proclaimed, the Gospel is changing lives and societies.

            In this scary new world of globalization one thing remains true: Its Jesus who people of every realm and tongue bless.”

            There seems to be a growing market in this country for books that discount or disparage Christians and Christianity . I suppose where there is money to be made there are books to be written . You nor I are able to keep the Golden Rule . This is why we need a Saviour . As long as we live in these sinned cursed bodies in this fallen world, man will fail again and again. It is Better to take the offer of the One Who lived a Perfect life and promises everlasting and abundant life through, “…repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Three points on your post.

            1. Logic: If all the world believed in the truth of a particular proposition or set of propositions, the sheer weight of all that belief, absent evidence, would lend not a nanogram of truth to the propositions.

            2. The reason most people believe as they do is that it is the religion they were born into, taught to believe it, and then there follows many years of steady conditioning. Therefore, none have any lock on what is really true in matters of their religious belief.

            3. Considering the growth of Christianity, I have no argument. It is a fact. It is also a fact that other religions are growing faster.
            —————————
            According to the Pew Research Center’s June 2013 report: “Christianity in its Global Context,” 1970–2020:

            “The fastest-growing religions over the 10-year period are likely to be the Baha’i faith (1.7% per annum), Islam (1.6%), Sikhism (1.4%), Jainism (1.3%), Christianity (1.2%), and Hinduism (1.2%). Each of these is growing faster than the world’s population (1.1%).”
            ——————————-
            However, it appears that currently (and certainly in the past), Islam is growing faster then Christianity.

          • GibbyD

            1. There is evidence though and good fruit produced from believing those “propositions ” about The LORD Jesus Christ and The Gospel . Not so much any other “proposition ” . Truth does not need “added to “. It stands by itself complete .

            2. Those that have experienced ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” , come from every nation of The world irregardless of their upbringing . I also think that there are many more who are as Joseph of Arimathea ( John 19:38)KJB. Christ gave instructions to go into all the world and preach the Gospel . I will trust God as to why some do not believe. The Judge of all the earth ( The LORD Jesus ) will do right.

            3.There is a “growing of Christianity ” as well as at the same time , A Great Falling away . Many who have professed to be believers were not genuine . When the time of testing came , they fell away . During the last days before Christ’s appearing and catching up of His Church , there will be an even greater unveiling of those who were only pretenders .

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            1) You made no justification for the statement, “There is evidence [through] . . . believing those ‘propositions’. . .”

            Are you saying that the evidence is in the believing? If one believes, then that is his evidence for the truth of the belief?

            I’d love to read your answer to that. How do you avoid the fallacy of the circular argument?

            2) You are saying that regardless of someone’s nurturing and teachings, if he is–what, honest?–he will come to Christianity? Do you not realize that is exactly what the Muslim thinks of the Christian? The two positions are mirror images.

            3) The mindset that says, “Many who have professed to be believers were not genuine. When the time of testing came, they fell away,” is a mindset that says, “there is NOTHING that will ever sway me away from what I believe to be true.”

            Again, that is exactly what the radical Muslim says of Christians–or anyone else that thinks differently.

            True understanding and empathy would begin with the realization that the logic of mirror images is irrefutable. It is deniable, but not refutable.

            Premise 1: Believer of religion “X” is unbending in his beliefs;

            Premise 2: Believer of religion “Y” is unbending in his beliefs;

            Premise 3: If Believer “X” is honest, he will come to Religion “Y”

            Premise 4: If Believer “Y” is honest, he will come to Religion “X.”

            Conclusion: The entire argument is invalid. There is no room for logic.

          • GibbyD

            If believer of religion “X” claims to have an inspired text that proves itself to have been right about everything and believer of religion “Y” , does not , then you better start at least reading more of that same text of believer “X” ‘s religion .

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Every believer in every religion would say precisely the same thing about their scriptures. “Religion X” could be any one of them. Those who believe the truth of propositions laid out in their non-Christian text, actually believe them with just as much fervor and devotion as you believe in yours.

            I see this as the greatest fault of religious certitude. It is anti-empathetic, divisive, and it blinds the believer to the indisputable fact that believers in other religions think the same as he, and are rejecting his religion for the very same reasons as he rejects theirs.

            I think of the various religions as citadels with high walls of dogmatic belief, within which believers cloister themselves.

            A defender walking the walls Citadel X can barely make out the defenders on the walls of other, distant Citadels that, in reality, are only mirror images–they, too, are Citadel X.

            Only a non-believing wayfarer journing past the citadels would see the identical nature of them all and marvel at the irony.

          • GibbyD

            The proof is in the pudding .The original phrase is “The proof of the pudding is in the eating!” Which means you have to eat the pudding to know what’s inside of it and to know how good it is . I think you must have had a bad batch prepared by those that were not genuine chefs .

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Again, you cannot say anything about the falseness of other beliefs that others don’t say about yours. You must experience Islam in order to know it is the beautiful and true Word of Allah!

          • GibbyD

            I studied them and have tasted them. There is death in their pot . Only in Jesus is their is real LOVE and abundant life. Muhammad is dead . Jesus is alive .

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            You have read the Quran? The Upanishads? The Guru Granth Sahib?

            What is the religion related closely to Christianity?

          • GibbyD

            “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” ( James 1:27)KJB.

            I have read enough of other belief systems to reject them and cling to that which is good , The Gospel of The LORD Jesus Christ . God seems to have given types and shadows of The Gospel and His ultimate plan even in some pagan belief systems, but they were only at most appetizers and possibly preparations in mankind’s psyche in order to help them receive the genuine when He came .

            “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
            14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” ( John 1:9-18)KJB

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            I posted this once, but it disappeared. Could it be that some moderator was incensed by my civil questions and does not believe in free speech? I’ll try it again, and this time, please answer the questions directly without vague assertions:
            ——————–
            So, you’ve studied and tasted them? How much? What do you mean by “tasted?” You read a little or a lot of the Quran, the Upanishads, the Guru Granth Sahib, and the Zend Avesta (among all others)?

            Which living religion is closest to Christianity in basic principles of belief?

            And, BTW, you didn’t answer my earlier question, “Are you saying that the evidence [for truth] is in the believing? If one believes, then that is his evidence for the truth of the belief?” Yes or no.

          • GibbyD

            No , I am saying that if one believes by obeying from the heart the doctrine of the Gospel , that a real transformation will occur . They will become born again , given Spiritual birth . The Holy Spirit will be given that person to reside inside them. When this happens , you will see , you will understand and you will be very glad that you trusted God and His Revelation of Himself in the Person of The LORD Jesus Christ . ( Romans 6:17; 2 Corinthians 5;17; John 3:3; I Peter 1:23; I Corinthians 2:10; I John 4:13)KJB

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “I am saying that if one believes by obeying from the heart the doctrine of the Gospel , that a real transformation will occur ”

            Read that sentence again. Logically, if you obey, “from the heart,” the doctrine, then you already believe it. Not only do you believe it FIRST, or you wouldn’t follow it “from the heart,” but you are believing it BECAUSE you follow it exclusively.

            Here is a syllogism of your sentence:

            1. If one obeys doctrine “X”, one will believe it;

            2. If one believes doctrine “X,” one will be transformed

            3. Therefore, to obey is to believe and to believe is to obey.

            I often hear Christians say (and I used to use the same argument many years ago), that in order to be saved by the doctrine, one must first believe it. This in different words, is you argument. Do you not see the circular nature of it? It works for any religion.

            Let’s look at it just slightly differently:

            “I am saying that if one believes by obeying from the Quran, then a real transformation will occur.”

            That, by the way, is one of the essence of the Five Pillars of Islam. Practice the doctrine with all your heart, and you will believe.

            I do not believe that you obeyed, with all your heart, the Five Pillars of Islam.

          • GibbyD

            “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.” ( Romans 6:17)KJB

            “Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
            For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” ( Romans 6:18-23)KJB

            The King James terminology, ” obey from the heart” , simply is a strong way of saying that you really believe it . It means that you have placed your total faith and trust in The Gospel . That form of doctrine , The Gospel, is what is being delivered and preached unto you. The fruit that is seen in the character and lives of those who have , their testimony, is part of the evidence to be considered . The ultimate testimony though and the One without flaw or shortcomings ,is The Person of The LORD Jesus Christ Himself . Do you really want to compare Muhammad with Jesus if Nazareth ?

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Sorry, but you are wasting your time posting bible verses as a means to either prove your point or convince me of anything. I can assure you that you can find the same sort of verses in religious books of other religions.

            In fact, one of the arguments for the truth of the Quran is that the writing/verbiage is so beautiful that no human could have written them out of his own mind–they had to be given by Allah, himself. And, I do not believe that anymore than I believe what you quote from the Bible.

            I notice that you did not address my argument from logic in my last post. I’ll let it go since it appears to have been accepted as indisputable.

            “The ultimate testimony though and the One without flaw or shortcomings ,is The Person of The LORD Jesus Christ Himself . Do you really want to compare Muhammad with Jesus if Nazareth ?”

            The idea that Jesus was divine and born of a virgin is doubtful to the extreme, if for no other reason than the fact of the mistranslation (I think purposeful) of Daniel’s time prophecy (“young woman” changed to “virgin). The redefining of the original Hebrew word retroactively made the mistranslation appear “correct,” and then the wrong definition was, though voluminous Christian writings and “research,” thoroughly embedded in Western religious culture/belief.

            If you like, I can get specific about that.

            (btw, this is not a condescension, but you need no space between the last word of a sentence or question and the punctuation.)

          • GibbyD

            Mr. Furr: “Sorry, but you are wasting your time posting bible verses as a means to either prove your point or convince me of anything. I can assure you that you can find the same sort of verses in religious books of other religions.”

            GibbyD——- I am not wasting my time . I believe God uses His Word just as He has promised. “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” ( Isaiah 55:11)KJB. No , you can’t find the same sort of verses in the religious books of other religions . The only information in the Koran that might be true , for instance , is where it agrees with The Bible .

            Mr. Furr: “In fact, one of the arguments for the truth of the Quran is that the writing/verbiage is so beautiful that no human could have written them out of his own mind–they had to be given by Allah, himself. And, I do not believe that anymore than I believe what you quote from the Bible.

            GibbyD: —- “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” ( John 3:19)KJB
            “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:11,12)KJB

            Mr. Furr: “I notice that you did not address my argument from logic in my last post. I’ll let it go since it appears to have been accepted as indisputable.”
            GibbyD: —— I do not think you understand what the Scripture plainly said . You also formulated an incorrect equation because your variables were not properly defined according to the precise measure of what my valid statements are saying. .

            GibbyD: —–“The ultimate testimony though and the One without flaw or shortcomings ,is The Person of The LORD Jesus Christ Himself . Do you really want to compare Muhammad with Jesus if Nazareth ?”

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “You also formulated an incorrect equation because your variables were not properly defined according to the precise measure of what my valid statements are saying.

            “Variables” according to the “precise” measure of “valid” statements?

            Would you mind unpacking that statement? Preciseness has no variables. Please lay out a logical syllogism that demonstrates your argument and/or show which premise I stated was not correct.

            You said, “I am saying that if one believes by obeying from the heart the doctrine of the Gospel , that a real transformation will occur.”

            I broke down your argument in a syllogism:

            1. If one obeys doctrine “X”, one will believe it;

            2. If one believes doctrine “X,” one will be transformed

            ~Therefore, to obey is to believe and to believe is to obey.

            Please point out the variables in the premises and show why the syllogism is not and invalid, circular argument.

            “I do not think you understand what the Scripture plainly said”

            Again, you are ignoring my position. Just because a verse stated something, no matter what that something was, the fact that it was written does NOT make it true. But then, I believe your argument is that it’s true BECAUSE you believe it. Show me where I am wrong.

            Give me a definitive verse in original Hebrew that “proves” the Jesus story–one that cannot be interpreted any other way but to show that, 1) Jesus was born when predicted, 2) Jesus’ mother would be a virgin, 3) his birth was correctly and UNAMBIGUOUSLY foretold hundreds of years before his birth, and 4) that he would be an avatar of Yahweh.

            Now, the Bible verses I know you will quote must be backed up by extant, independent evidence.

          • GibbyD

            I believe The Gospel because it is true. If I did not believe The Gospel , The Gospel would still be true. You do not believe the Gospel because you are unwilling to repent toward God nor place your faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ. I hope and pray you change your mind.

            “Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” ( 2 Timothy2:14-19)KJB

            “But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;11Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” ( Titus 3:10)KJB.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Okay, you’ve made my case. I do hope you and yours have a wonderful life full of love and empathy.

          • GibbyD

            It is , thank you. This is why I took time and prayers to reach out to you. If I did not have empathy motivated by The LOVE of God , I would have said nothing while you drown in the despair of man’s philosophy and hopeless end. Because I am younger, please don’t consider anything I said as a “rebuke” or condemnation. I would attempt to entreat you just as I would my own dad or any other elder. (2 Tim. 5:1,2)KJB. This verse is primarily applicable to the Assembly of God’s people, but I think it should also apply generally in society.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            My replies to you are being deleted by the anti-free speech police on this blog. Conveniently, my civil questions apparently do not pass the approval of the moderators. I’ll try a third time in an addendum to this reply.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Since you have studied and tested all other religions; of Islam, Hindu, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism, which one most closely resembles Christianity?

          • GibbyD

            Let me quote the definition of salvation vs. religion that a professor of mine once gave us in class.

            ” SALVATION IS WHOLLY THE WORK OF GOD FOR MAN AND NOT A WORK OF MAN FOR GOD . IT INCLUDES EVERY DIVINE UNDERTAKING NECESSARY TO DELIVER THE BELIEVING SINNER FROM HIS LOST ESTATE UNTIL HIS FINAL PRESENTATION IN GLORY . RELIGION IS MAN’S EFFORT TO TRY AND BIND HIMSELF TO GOD , WHILE SALVATION IS GOD SEEKING AFTER MAN . THIS IS THE ONLY GOSPEL . Galatians 1:6-9. ” — Dr. Thomas Figart.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            More unfounded conjecture from subjective belief. It proves nothing but your attempt to evade logical arguments.

          • GibbyD

            What is illogical is thinking that the God of all would not have given us a trustworthy Revelation of Himself and His purpose for everything He made.

      • GibbyD

        Nobody, including yourself , are able to keep “the golden rule”. That is why man needs a Saviour and God Who will be able to change our hearts.

        IN case it was deleted as you think or suspect that it was , let me re-post my answers to the questions and statements you made earlier .

        Max Furr: “Since I left dogmatic religion, I derive my ethics from reason and philosophy. No god is necessary to understand that it is in everyone’s best interest to do what one can for the good of society in general.”
        GibbyD: ——–>>>I also derive my belief from reason and the love of wisdom ( philosophy). I am not interested in the world’s typical religion or it’s philosophy . I have read of and seen the end of most philosophies and philosophers . I was and am not impressed or persuaded by any of them . None satisfied me . Man’s typical religion including “Christianity” or rather what I call Christiandom , left me as cold because it seemed phony. Most of the religions of the world have emphasis in their individual or group’s efforts to try and bind themselves to a god or gods by their self effort or performance . This would include Christiandom because most of the denominations and sects of that religion teach that “salvation” and Heaven is gained by, as you said, “doing good” . My study of other religions started , as I am sure many others have , with the standard basic 1969 text by John B. Noss, ‘Man’s Religions’ . They probably still use it today in many universities . The last book I have read recently on comparative religions , is a small but concise book ,or actually booklet, called ‘Religions In A Nutshell ‘ by Ray Comfort. I thought It was a very creative and helpful effort to capsulize in few words each of the major world religions .

        Max Furr: “Personally, I think that doing good so that I might be rewarded by going to a heaven is a very selfish thing to do.”
        GibbyD: ———–>>>>> I agree but not only is it impossible to be good or do enough good to get to Heaven, The Bible does not teach that doing good earns us the right to Heaven . What flavor of Christiandom did you grow up in ? The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8,9 that , “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” This is one of the most essential truths about The Gospel . It is spoken of in several places in the New Testament . It is what separates true Biblical saving faith from all that other Christiandom that espouses a works, works plus faith , do good , do unto others , do the best that you can , your good outweighs your bad , God will understand , just keep the ten commandments , be baptized , etc. , etc, kind of “salvation ” or means to make to Heaven . You or I cannot and will not be rewarded with Heaven by doing good . Perfection all our lives and perfect righteousness is what would be needed and all of us fall short of that. ( Romans 3:20,24,27,28 ; I Cor. 1:29-31; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5; Romans 4:2; Romans 9:11,16; Romans 11:6; John 4:10; Acts 15:11; Galatians )KJB

        Max Furr: “But, you are not addressing my direct arguments concerning religious beliefs, in the vast majority of cases, being a function of the family and society into which you were born and taught to believe.”
        GibbyD: ————–>>>Too many have rejected or simply ignore the beliefs of the religious ideology that they were brought up in . They may perform outwardly the pattern and rituals they have been taught but do not necessary believe or obey from the heart those teachings. It is more a family obligation, tradition or custom to them. When any in any of those religious systems hear The Gospel and believes it by obeying it from the heart , a change occurs . It becomes the power of God unto salvation . They become new creatures in Christ , old things pass away and all things become new. ( 2 Corinthians 5:17). When they become born again, they come out of any of those other religions including dead Christiandom and enter into new life in Christ . The way , the Truth and The Life in Christ , The Spirit of God, is so much better than dead orthodoxy and religiosity that has no meaning , hope or satisfying answers . The truth sets free anyone from any background and religious system no matter where in the world they live . Mr. Furr , you and I are examples that demonstrate that our backgrounds did not cause us to decide to hold to what we have been taught . There are millions of testimonies of those that have come out of different religions in the world when they have heard The Gospel. They did not follow another religion when they did , but rather followed Jesus because they gained a real and vital relationship with Him .

        Max Furr: “You are asking a lot of questions and making accusations that tend to show me you haven’t a basic idea of secular philosophy and you seem to believe that only Christians have real purpose in life. To you, all other religions are “false religions.” But you don’t address my point that says that is exactly what most people of other religions think of Christianity.”
        GibbyD: ————->>>>> What most people think of Christianity is probably not what The Bible teaches that it is, as I have already noted . If one hears unfettered , the simple Gospel message , presented and or preached , it will produce a change and eventually if not sooner , real fruit . “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” ( Galatians 5:22,23)KJB. I wish and pray that the world and all those who have yet to believe , will not be influenced by the fake Chrisiandom, it’s false gospel and all it’s dishonorable examples and testimonies of failure and fraud but instead will hear the pure Gospel and see genuine vessels of honor and lives that exemplify the character and love of The LORD Jesus. What is secular wisdom’s worth if it does not bring a man to The Truth? The real Life and Truth is hid with Christ in God . God is now revealing them to us with The Gift of His Son , Love incarnate. — “In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 12No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.” ( I John 4:9-14)KJB

        Max Furr: “If you were to truly understand why you reject all other religions, then and only then will you understand why they reject yours, and the same goes for them.”
        GibbyD: ————>>>>I know why I accept and believe The LORD Jesus , The Bible and The Gospel . The reason why others have not is because they have not heard the Gospel but rather looked at Christiandom and think that is it . People around the world are actually very hungry , not just literally but also their hearts are spiritually hungry and thirsty for The Truth . Nothing satisfies the heart of man more then Jesus . I would say too that nothing satisfies and stimulates my mind as much as God’s Word . The LORD enriches my mind to think deeper thoughts and imagine greater possibilities . There is no limit and nothing is impossible with God . The best or most that secular philosophy can bring is only temporary ,and in the end, is literally , a dead end .

        Max Furr: “Among the things that I cannot abide is intellectual dishonesty. Because of that trait, I moved away from fundamentalism for the reasons I’ve stated, and because after opening my mind I found that in order to keep on believing in Christianity, I would have to suspend much I’ve learned from objective science.”
        GibbyD: ————>>>> Yes , you would have to ” suspend ” or at least be inclusive of some super-natural things other than what is seen and known in natural science in order to believe in The Resurrection of The LORD Jesus Christ and in other miracles spoken of in The Bible . I would consider all of existence to be a great miracle . Why is there not non-existence ? Have you ever meditated on non-existence ? It’s even less than nothing , you know . Where did the stuff come from that banged concerning The Big Bang theory ? I believe God created everything from nothing . The only reasonable answer that explains it all is God and The Holy Bible is the only book that gives many of the details , believe them or not .

        Max Furr: “Now, I have answered your questions with honesty. Either directly address my pointed questions or lets simply agree to disagree. And keep in mind that the argument, “I am right because I believe the Bible is the “word of God” and so it is true.”
        GibbyD: ————>>>> We may still disagree for now but I do not think that I know everything, for if I did, then I would not know anything as I ought to know ( I Corinthians 8:2) . And, “The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.” ( Psalm 25:9)KJB. ” But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” ( James 4:6)KJB. ——And I only believe The Bible is true BECAUSE it is The Word of God . It has proven to be so . You have not mentioned yet one supposed error , contradiction or fault you think you see in The Bible that i have not heard before and have had resolved and or heard answered and explained very adequately. I believe I have also answered directly in this response above your pointed question .

      • GibbyD

        What you are ascribing to is spoken about in the following . https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7jIn_u6mGw4

      • Psk6565

        So, what you are saying is to believe your wisdom and adopt your solution to world peace. You include all those that include you and Christ includes all those that include Him.

        You don’t realize that you are doing exactly what you rail against.

    • Gary Gayisok Whiteman

      Although I identify as a Christian, I wear a necklace displaying the symbols of the world’s 7 largest religions and the words, “When there is peace among religions, there will be peace in the world”. Yes, that’s a bit naive and idealistic, but I think it would be a very good start.

      • http://www.equip.org/ w w w . e q u i p . o r g

        only jesus created the world,read orthodox bible like king james and eugene peterson bibles colosians 1) only jesus rose from the dead read john 1 verses 1 and 14 the word was with god,the word was god, 14 the word became flesh.

        • Gary Gayisok Whiteman

          I read quite a few translations of the Bible. That said, I do not necessarily agree that everything in it (any of them) is absolutely true nor that the theology of those who attempt to claim to be “orthodox” is “correct”. As long as you don’t use it as an excuse to harm others, I don’t really care what you believe.

          • http://www.equip.org/ w w w . e q u i p . o r g

            the coran teaches muslims to murder infedils,christians,jews,others state they are the only way to god when archeology and many witnesses in a hebrew culture that was misoyginist risked their lives to claim jesus rose from the dead which only god can do.your promoting false faiths,i care.

          • DisqusBurner1983

            Maybe you should also care about getting an education and learning to form coherent sentences. You do your (ridiculous) cause no justice by sounding like a crazy person. Also, I suggest you read the Quran if you think it contains any more bizarre, irrelevant passages than any Christian bible. What’s that line about dashing babies brains out on the rocks?

          • http://www.equip.org/ w w w . e q u i p . o r g

            surah 5 states muslims should cut off infidels opposing feet and hands,im very educated,ever hear of ee cummings of course you didnt get off your high horse before your attitude brings you down.liars called jesus demonic crazy,im in good company,change or satan will destroy you like a roaming lion.no line except its better if you hang a millstone around your neck in the sea if you ndeceive a child.

      • Evangelina Vigilantee

        There won’t be peace in the world nor among religions. Only Jesus brings peace. I wear a shirt that says:
        “No Jesus, no peace; know Jesus, know peace!”
        That is the whole point of the crucifixion, reconciliation to God, repent of and be cleansed of your sins, have peace with God. Not the peace that the world gives, as Jesus said. It’s the only way, the world will never find it outside of Jesus. In fact, Jesus did not come to bring world peace, but rather a sword of division. The sword? The word of God; the truth, which divides those who are for Him from those against Him. It’s in the bible. Love and blessings.

        • BJ4..u2

          You and I do not see all things in the Bible the same. I suggest that when men and women of good will kindly share that part of the truth that we see and expose that truth in our way of being toward others instead of demanding that all others see things the same way we do, we will find peace in Jesus regardless of the name we place on it.

    • Katee Ripid

      So so true, Jose

  • MrDorrit

    It breaks my heart when someone falls, or worse, renounces their faith. But I am equally heartbroken at the meanness with which we dispense with them when they do.

    • S_O_T_A

      It is not “mean” to cut them off. To stay ‘connected’ would be problematic for the proclamation of the gospel. This is strongly supported by Scripture.

  • Art Dominguez

    Hard to “renounce” something you never were…

  • Richard Stephens

    No “Real” Christian ever renounces Christ.

    • Karen

      You would think not, but there have been many. I know people who served the Lord for years then turned away because they got entangled with things of this world. Sad, but true.

      • Jonathan Fontenot

        U may want to read and consider the parable of the sower friend. The Lord preserves His people to the end through chastisment and discipline. Hebrews 12:5. only false professors fall finally from the faith, as indicated in 1 john 2.

        • Lisa

          Are you sure you mean 1 John 2? I don’t see what you mean in that verse which is why I ask. Also in Hebrews 12:5 I don’t see where it says that the Lord preserves His people to the end.

          • Jonathan Fontenot

            1 john 2:14-9 addresses those anti-christs ( false professors) who go out from the church to make themselves manifest in the world, showing that they were never really part of the church. Hebrews 12:5-11 shows us God’s method of discipline for those who are truly His. Through the work of the Holy Spirit, He convicts us of sin and leads us to repentance. This is a continual process and characteristic of genuine Christians. Phil. 1:6. The work that He began is salvation …and He will complete it at the last day. Also see romans 8:29-39.

          • Lisa

            i don’t think it’s just false professors who fall from the faith. The righteous can fall away. It doesn’t seem to me that he is saying he was a false professor anyway, he just wants to be in a band and stuck with this one but then decided he couldn’t keep going in it because he didn’t believe, so to me he isn’t a false professor. He never believed and admits to it.
            I agree that He will complete the work He started but only if you don’t fall away or shrink back in the mean time.

          • Jonathan Fontenot

            You are certianly entitled to believe what you wish. However, I must urge you to study. To deny the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is to deny the historic position of the church, including the apostles, as well as the reformers. I used to take your position , so I understand your hesitancy, but the whole of scripture is clear, there is now no more condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS. Romans 8:1. I will say no more, but do feel fee to email me directly at [email protected]

          • Guest

            That’s not a historic position of the church, unless you only refer to some Protestant denominations. The apostle Paul even speaks of Christian’s experiencing a shipwreck of their faith. The parable of the sower, likewise, speaks of those who receive the gospel with genuine joy, but the resulting plant is choked out by the worries and concerns of the world.

          • Jonathan Fontenot
          • Guest

            That’s not a historic position of the church, unless you only refer to
            some Protestant denominations. The apostle Paul even speaks of
            Christians experiencing a shipwreck of their faith. The parable of the
            sower, likewise, speaks of those who receive the gospel with genuine
            joy, but the resulting plant is choked out by the worries and concerns
            of the world.

          • Greg Kasler

            Be careful when you proclaim a doctrine as “the historic position of the church.” There are many, many Christian theologians that would not agree with that position. There is no reason to argue, as there are “proof texts” on both sides of the argument.

          • BJ4..u2

            It’s been said that a “proof text” can be found and interpreted as supporting any position. I believe that to be a true statement. So I have concluded that there is no useful proof in those texts themselves.

          • wandakate

            From his story, it seems like it was all put on from the beginning. He was (as several people have stated here), not really even into JESUS in the first place, just going along with the program and living the lie. He never fell away as you don’t fall away from something that you never had in the first place. He was young and wanted the things of the world. BUT, the things of the world won’t save him, impossible. Only JESUS is able to do that for him. He has sealed his own fate. He had a choice to believe or not and he made his free choice. There are two places, heaven and hell, we all go to one of them, but which one determines what choice we make now. We are to be in the world, but not of the world and it’s evil and pleasures. We can’t have it all. We must count the cost of discipleship. Most people won’t go to heaven b/c they are not willing to persevere until the end which JESUS said we must do, make it until the end, Rev 21:7. It’s the ones that overcome all this evil and don’t take the mark that will enter the Kingdom and their names will not be blotted out of GOD’s book, Rev. 3:5.

          • Lisa

            I don’t know if when he joined the group he pretended to be Christian but in the article I thought it said that he never believed he just wanted to be in a band so he got out cause he couldn’t take the Christian stuff anymore. So I think the headline is a little misleading since in the story he says he never believed. In that case there is no question on whether he was ever a Christian-he was not.

          • KenS

            Now your just confusing those left behind and going through the great tribulation with those that are christians now. That is apples and oranges.

          • wandakate

            Apparently you must believe that Christians will not be going through any part of the tribulation or know what the “mark” is all about. The seal and trumpet judgments are the wrath of satan and the wrath of GOD isn’t until the final 7 judgments called the bowl/vial judgments. Please read Revelation 11:15-29. What is happening right there? JESUS has appeared and He has taken possession of this evil world away from satan who is not the god of this evil world. Remember also that the book of Revelation IS NOT written in chronological order. John the revelator was going back and forth from heaven to earth in his visions. All Christians will go through the tribulation until the bowl judgments. We will be martyred for our faith as well. JESUS told us that we would.

        • Terry Roll

          You may want to read the parable of the prodigal son friend.

      • wandakate

        In my opinion “IF” you truly love the LORD and strive to “obey” Him and are devoted to Him you WILL NOT allow yourself to get entangled with the things of this world. You will have self discipline. The HOLY SPIRIT will be there to guide you into all truth and the things of this evil world are not the truth, but nothing more than satan’s lies.
        We can’t love GOD and money at the same time. We are to be in this world but not of this world. Look at the Muslims, they believe in Allah, and the words in the Koran. They love that so much they are willing to give their lives for it. Christians (real, not fake) ones will do the same for JESUS. Even JESUS said, “Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad for great is your reward in heaven for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.” We have that blessed hope that we will be rewarded in heaven if we are persecuted for our faith in Him. There is a difference in being a REAL Christian and being a FAKE one, and most people just don’t seem to know the difference.

    • Lisa

      Hebrews 10:38
      But my righteous one shall live by faith, And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.
      It seems to me that a real Christian can renounce.

      • nodoubt257

        One that shrinks back is REJECTING Christ

        • Lisa

          Yes I know, Richard said that no real Christian ever renounces Christ.

      • GibbyD

        “Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” ( Hebrews 10:38)KJB. A Christians does not escape the battle against the world , the flesh and the devil after he or she becomes born again . What they ultimately do have is the right standing and a promise some day of being free from the Spirit vs. flesh war . Our standing before God is based on imputed righteousness that is not our own but rather granted to our account by God to us based upon Christ’s finished work on The Cross of Calvary . REAL Christians do struggle and sometime are allured by the world, overcome by their flesh and deceived by the devil . Our victory though is not in our ability but in Christ’s ability, not in our goodness but in Christ’s perfect goodness . If we really are sons of God , then God will deal with us as sons . In other words God will chasten us , if need be , because of our unrepentant and sometimes still rebellious sinful human nature . ( Hebrews 12:6-11)KJB—-” And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

        “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave themreverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”

        If that chastisement does not work then He may even use the physical death penalty on his child . ( I Corinthians 5:5)KJB. “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Notice that only his body is allowed to be killed by satan . He will go to Heaven though , unrewarded and suffering loss .

        I would be more concerned if God did not chasten me and or seemed to let me get away with sin . That would show me that i was not even saved ( His child) to begin with . I was NEVER His child if I can get away with unrepentant sin or not even want to get right and live right . Christians fall many times, But Jesus always picks us up . Lisa , the verse you used in that poor translation , does not even say anything about ” renouncing faith in Christ ” . It says ” if any man draw back” . It is possible for a born again saved Christian to ” displease God ” , just as it is possible for him to please God . God has feelings and it is possible to grieve Him and give Him joy . If we are born again though , we are always are going to remain His children . ( Philippians 1:6)KJB

        • Lisa

          Ah, but the next verse says but we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. That gives me pause. Jesus says some will fall away. I understand that a Christian will have temptations and God will scourge His own but I cannot believe in once saved always saved. If that is so then why is the New Testament filled with admonition to endure, persevere and overcome? And then this verse telling us not to shrink back, why tell us if it has no meaning because Christians still have sin. Why would satan even bother Christians if it’s all sown up? Losing cause there then. Why would Jesus talk that some will fall away from the faith if it’s not possible? That it even will be a sign to look for along with the anti being revealed in the end? Why say that if you are saved from it for sure? And I’m not using an inferior translation.

          • GibbyD

            And it is impossible to un-believe something that you already believe . If you believe it then you believe it . If you stopped believing it then according to the Bible you were just faking it and never believed it in the first place .”They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they WERE NOT all of us.” ( I John 2:19)KJB ” Then I will announce to them, I *NEVER* knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’ ” ( Matthew 7:23)KJB

            The Translation that I use and trust today is not the one I always used when I was in Bible College back in the early 80s . We memorized the KJB but used the NASB . The New American Standard that you quote from was the preferred Bible by many for they said it was translated from older thus they believed more accurate manuscripts . The problem with that is plentiful as i observed the differences between the Textus Receptus and the other line of manuscripts from which we get most of our newer translations.

            http://www.av1611.org/kjv/knowkjv.html ><http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/which_bible_can_we_trust.htm

          • Frank

            The KJV isn’t even a translation. Both it and textus receptus are corrupt.

          • GibbyD

            Are you just going to make a statement without any facts or evidence to support it ? Here is evidence to that refutes your statement . —-> http://www.av1611.org/kjv/knowkjv.html

          • Frank

            I’ve read all that nonsense before. It was false then and is false now. KJV is not a translation, adds words not in any, read any, koine Greek manuscript and all sorts of other stuff. But if you want to believe all the misinformation of KJV only and be fooled that is certainly your right. There is certainly plenty of information from reputable bible translators that shows all the KJV only positions are fallacious.

          • GibbyD

            Give me one example of words that are not in any Greek manuscript that are added to The KJB.

          • Frank

            Which of the 30,000 words do you want? Or how about your beloved 1611 containing the apochrapha? Or all the alternate readings in the 1611 side notes? Or which mistranslation of words such as unicorn and church? Here is an excellent site that shows why KJV Onlyism is very very wrong :

            http://www.bible.ca/b-kjv-only.htm

            There are plenty others.

          • GibbyD

            The ” 30.000 words” you speak about were not added or subtracted words but rather ONLY SPELLING CHANGES. You know that . The Apocrypha not “apochrapha’ was placed placed BETWEEN the testaments . This showed that it was not part of the accepted canon of Scriptures but rather inserted for historical purposes . That was even the testimony of the translation committee. ” Side notes” are side notes. Those are not scripture but rather helps . Most study bibles today have side notes and are for helps and might give alternative readings for the purpose of further clarification. Unicorn and church were the right words used in the King James. For instance the unicorn was not the fictional creature one horned horse but rather the Rhino or a now extinct animal . Here is a better site to explain why The King James Bible is The Word of God . Without final authority , you and any thousands become the final authority. Remember most of the Greek and Hebrew scholars in the world are not born again believers . You want to trust them over a written preserved Bible that God has blessed for over 400 years.( Psalm 12:6-7; 119:40; Proverbs 30:5; Matthew 24:35; Luke 24:27; 1 Timothy 5:18; 2 Timothy 3:15-17.).
            http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/kjb_only.htm

          • Frank

            I have been a student of the koine Greek for many many years. I’ve studied the lineage of the manuscripts. I’ve studied from Christian historians and translators. And that webpage you are listing and it’s arguements are fallacious. The 30,000 words were not spelling changes. No matter where it was placed the apochrypha was still included and would still mislead people. The side notes showed even the translators were admitting they didn’t know what the correct translation would be and were not translating under inspiration. Unicorn is a mythical creature and mistranslation. And, no, “church” was not the correct translation. There are numerous mistranslations in the KJV even today. Added phrases that have beyond dubious origination. The KJV is not the sole English word of God. It’s not even a translation. KJV only people have driven a lot of people from the Kingdom of God. I’ve seen them do it numerous times. KJV only stance is very very bad and wrong.

          • GibbyD

            I only had two semesters of koine Greek when I was in Bible College back in the early 80s . I have been saved for 36 years and have also studied the two lines where we get all our present day Bibles . One line is trusted , the other is not . Show me one mistake in the King James Bible .Show one irrefutable example where you think it has been wrongly translated . You said there are many so show me one . The translators of the KJB had the Greek and Hebrew and also the already established English translations on the table when they TRANSLATED and presented to the world The KJB.

            So far the only examples of what you think are errors , are the words “unicorn” and “church”.

            Unicorn:(Deuteronomy 33:17;Job 39:9-10;Psalm 22:21,29:6;Isaiah 34:7), the King James Bible mentions a unicorn. The original Hebrew is the word re’em.The original Hebrew word basically means “beast with a horn.” This was probably the rhinoceros.Whether the re’em refers to a rhinocerous, or some other horned animal, the image is the same—that of an untamable, ferocious, powerful, wild animal. What we do know is that the Bible is not referring to the mythological “unicorn,” the horse-with-a-horn creature of fairy tales and fantasy literature. It is highly unlikely that the KJV translators believed in the mythological unicorn. Rather, they simply used the Latin term that described a “beast with a horn.”

            church : a called out assembly of believers that belong to The LORD . Without giving specific identity of what kind of called out people or congregation(ecclessia) the Scriptures were speaking of , you would be in doubt or confused of who they were . The word gets it’s source from another old English word that means “belonging to the lord” , in this case The LORD. Where two or three are gathered together unto and in The Name of The LORD Jesus Christ , there ‘I am'( Jesus ) is in the midst of them. The Matthew 18 passage speaks of that local manifestation and representation of The Church. Many have forsaken the gathering and or assembling together with other believers. We need this for joined worship , instruction , fellowship , evangelism , breaking of bread and communion . Frank , I hope you will be blessed today as you are gathered together with others in The Name of The LORD Jesus Christ .

          • Frank

            I have studied for many more than 2 years. And continue to study and use it. God is not in this box you have created for Him. He will not be contained in a box. How dare you and others of the KJV only mindset insult the Creator of the Universe, the Creator of all by putting Him in a box!

            The point of unicorn is the 1611 is not a perfect translation. Its not even a translation! None of the KJB versions are translations. And the word church was mistranslated. I am not talking about ekklasia. You should read that page I listed.

          • GibbyD

            I only formally studied the new Testament Greek for two semesters ( as I said). I also have continued to examine and refer to the Greek and Hebrew for the past 36 years . I and others that believe that The King James Bible is The Word of God , are not insulting God by believing His Word . Rather , we honor Him by believing that He is able to do exactly what He said He would do *. By supplanting God’s Word and imposing yourself as the final authority of what is and is not God’s Word , you have simply become a protestant pope. You pick and chose what is your preference as to what you want as The Word of God and reject that for which you disagree. Many protestant preachers , just as Roman Catholic “priests” , lord over others this way . They tell them that they cannot understand what God’s Word is saying so they need you to tell them “what it really says” because you believe that you are the so called authority on it and not God Himself. You think ” I am the priest , pastor or scholar on this subject” . This is just a form of Nicolaitanism that The LORD warned about , hates and condemns . It is a way to control and manipulate others and a way to lift up self. God was and is able to preserve His Word ,just as He said He would. I will not click onto a page that I have doubts about . I don’t need a computer virus . You have not proven that the words church or unicorn are not correct . Frank , I have not known anyone that was able to memorize whole chapters and books of the Bible that used several translations and was not fully believing that the Words they are reading are the pure perfect Word of God without error .

            * “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
            Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” ( Psalm 12:6,7)KJB.

          • Frank

            And so you will remain ignorant of the Word of God. You just don’t want to see the Truth. You have a box mentality of God. You insult Him as do other KJV only advocates. You and the others of the KJV only mindset drive people away from the Kingdom of God as I have witnessed numerous times. And you don’t even really know what the Word of God is.

            How is your book of life? Added to. Removed. Changed.

            Ironically everything you accuse me of, you and the rest of the KJV only advocates are doing yourselves. You have a limited box idea of what the Word of God is and means. God will not be controlled by you or the others that try to stuff the Great I AM (not I am he), into a box. He is bigger and more Awesome and more powerful than the KJV. And He grew mightily before the KJV was a twinkling in the eye.

          • GibbyD

            I simply believe His Word , the One that He has blessed for over 400 years. You do not.

          • Frank

            You do not have an understanding of the meaning of Word of God.

            How is that book of life? Added to. Changed. Deleted word. Not in the Greek. Oh, the irony of that verse too. The Logic of God is not restricted to the KJV box. You insult the Reason of God by putting Him in a KJV only box. The Word of God will not be restrained by you and the other KJV only mindset people. But KJV only people will drive people away from the Kingdom of God as I have witnessed numerous times.

          • GibbyD

            And simply compare the translations of the Bibles . Most of your many versions remove the following verse . — “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” { I John 5:7 }KJB

            “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:” ( Ephesians 6:17)KJB

            “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” ( John 1:14)KJB

            “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ” (John 1:1 )KJB

            The LORD Jesus Christ is The incarnate Word of God

            So yes , I do know *Who* The Word of God is .

          • Frank

            The verse that has horrendous manuscript history. Just like quite a few others. KJV only websites are horrible historians.

            So how is the added and changed book of life? Oh the irony of the verse that proves KJV is not the inerrant Word of God you hold it out to be along with all the other KJV only people that drive people away from the Kingdom of God.

            And still no, you do not have an understanding of the meaning of Word of God. You have a small understanding in a very limited scope. The Logic of God is bigger than what you perceive the Reason of God to be.

          • GibbyD
          • Frank

            Might get a virus….

          • GibbyD

            STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS

            In the same vein, White builds a series of straw man arguments in order to prove his point. He uses the equation (p. 3), “The King James Bible Alone = the Word of God Alone,” to state the view of the KJV only movement. This equation is given without any quotation to support it, and assumes that only the King James Bible is the word of God. The logical implication is that those who hold to this view do not believe any other country has the word of God unless they speak English, or that until 1611 the word of God was lost. Most KJV advocates believe the King James Bible to be God’s preserved words for the English speaking people – not the whole world as White suggests (p. 3). King James supporters also recognize the history of the scriptures throughout the church age and show different times in history where the word of God existed before 1611.

            Again, White states of the TR:

            Anyone who believes the TR to be infallible must believe that Erasmus, and the other men who later edited the same text in their own editions (Stephanus and Beza), were somehow ‘inspired,’ or at the very least ‘providentially guided’ in their work. Yet, none of these men ever claimed such inspiration. (p. 58)

            First of all, who believes these men were inspired by God in the same sense the Old and New Testament writers were inspired? White assumes the KJV advocate believes this, and then expresses that men like Erasmus “never claimed to be inspired.” Secondly, White quotes Dr. Edwin Palmer of the NIV translation committee as saying, “John 1:18, as inspired by the Holy Spirit…declare(s) that Jesus is God” (p. 103). Because the KJV has a different rendering here, Dr. Palmer calls the KJV and its Greek texts “inferior” and his Greek text “inspired”. If a KJV advocate had used such wording concerning the TR, White would have objected.

            White points to Dr. Ruckman as evidence that the KJV only movement sees the Authorized Version as a form of advanced revelation superior to the originals.

            His arguments represent the extreme of the KJV Only position. We have already noted his statements regarding the perfection of the KJV, even to the point of asserting that the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts should be changed to fit the AV 1611, since even mistakes in the AV 1611 are ‘advanced revelation.’ (p. 109)

            This is another example of Mr. White not doing his homework. It is common to refer to the Greek texts of modern versions as “the original.” Since Dr. Ruckman sees these texts as corrupt, he often makes light of them by stating the KJV should be used to correct them. He is not claiming the KJV should be used to correct the authors of the Old and New Testaments, but that the KJV should be used to correct the writings of modern textural critics. As to the superiority of the KJV to the true originals, Ruckman only points out that the originals would serve little purpose to the common English reader since he could not read them but could read his English KJV. Even modern scholars recognize this. Luther A. Weigle quotes Sir Frederic Kenyon, who stated in 1936, “It is the simple truth that, as literature, the English Authorized Version is superior to the original Greek” [“The New Oxford Annotated Bible With the Apocryphia (Revised Standard Version),” Oxford University Press 1977, p. 1553]. Neither Kenyon, Weigle, nor the committee for the Oxford study Bible could be called followers of Dr. Ruckman or part of the KJV only group, although they did recognize how the KJV was superior to the original Greek. Perhaps White will target these men in his next book on the subject.

            A curious example is given at the beginning of the introduction about a Christian bookstore sales clerk who is approached by a KJV only advocate asking for a “real Bible.” Does this sort of thing happen? Yes it does. But what about the believer who goes into a Christian bookstore and is pressured to get a NIV or NASV? What about the Christian who tries to pick up a book on modern cults or Christian theology and is told how his KJV has errors in it? Or the Christian looking for a Bible who is told the only difference between the KJV and modern versions is that today’s translations have removed all the old English of the KJV such as the “Thee’s” and “Thou’s,” only to find whole verses missing and conflicting translation of some verses. While there are militant KJV advocates, there are also militant promoters of modern versions. Most Christians are neither. Contrary to White’s implication, the vast majority of those who attend churches where the Authorized Version is used exclusively, and who believe it to be God’s word, do not make the issue of modern textual criticism and Bible translations the central issue in their Christian walk. Most are content to read and believe the Bible they have without altercation and most Christians, both users of modern translations and KJV advocates, are more concerned with living the Bible then defending it.

            White insists that modern versions are better because they are more understandable. To illustrate he uses two foreign phrases, in reality idioms, to make his case (p. 23). “The French have a saying that goes, ‘J’ai le cafard.'” The literal translation would be, “I have a cockroach,” but the understood meaning is, “I am depressed,” or “I have the blues.” He also uses the example of the German phrase “Morgenstund’ hat Gold im Mund’,” which means, “Morning hours have gold in the mouth,” or to fit our English expression, “The early bird catches the worm.” These examples allegedly show why dynamic equivalent translations such as the NIV are “better” than a literal translation such as the KJV. The scriptural reference he gives comes from Luke 9:44 which reads, “Let these sayings sink down into your ears” (KJV), as opposed to “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you” (NIV).

            The dynamic equivalent translation discards the doctrine of the preservation of God’s words and promotes thought-for-thought translation instead. One could argue the accuracy of such a translation and the fear of whose thoughts are being related in the process. The point is two fold. One, there are few idiomatic expressions in scripture to justify the use of thought translations. Two, the very example White uses proves the point. For the English reader, is the phrase, “Let these sayings sink down into your ears” as difficult to comprehend as the connotation of the French idiom, “I have the cockroach”? Surely, White could have provided us with a better example.

            A few favorite instances of White’s straw man are where he tries to convince the reader that if men like Hills or Erasmus or even the KJV translators themselves were alive today, they would agree with White. This is speaking for the dead.

            “I can say with confidence that if Desiderius Erasmus were alive today he would not be an advocate of the AV 1611” (p. 60). How does White know this? Has he been speaking with Erasmus lately?

            “Dr. Hills’ [sic] honesty is a breath of fresh air. If he had not begun with the assumption of the superiority of the TR, he would undoubtedly have been led to a conclusion in favor, at the very least, of the ‘Majority Text’ rather than the modern critical texts” (p. 93). Really? Then why did he not do so?

            The following is perhaps the best. In reference to 2 Cor. 2:17, the KJV translates the Greek word “kapeleunontes” as “corrupt” instead of “peddle” as the New King James Version does. “Surely if the KJV translators were alive today”, states White, “they would gladly admit that ‘peddle’ is a better translation than ‘corrupt,’ and would adopt it themselves” (p. 114). This is foolishness. There were peddlers in 1611, but they chose “corrupt” because they felt it was the better translation. No amount of speaking for the dead will change that fact.

            White also argues the point of freedom. While stating that “..if people wish to use the KJV, they should feel free to do so” (p. 5), he claims KJV advocates do not grant this same freedom to others using modern versions. Here, White has confused conviction for the Authorized Version with confinement to the Authorized Version. Of course the KJV advocate will sound more dogmatic. He is speaking from the conviction that he has a perfect Bible. However, this conviction does not confine others and people are free to use whatever translation they wish to use. The translators of the NIV wrote in the preface, “Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals.” The KJV advocate agrees that the NIV and all other modern versions are imperfect and fall short. Still, anyone is free to read and believe them.

            The translators of the KJV are the focus of White’s book in chapter four. “The KJV translators were not infallible human beings,” White points out. “Some, in fact, may have harbored less than perfect motivations for their work” (p. 70). No one claims the KJV translators, or even the original writers, were infallible. It is the word of God that is infallible, not men. God can use fallible men to produce an infallible book . Also, White is very vague in his statement. What is meant by “may have”? Where is the proof of such a statement? The only “evidence” White offers is a footnote where William Barlow, the head of the translators at Westminster, is quoted as saying the king of England was “sacred by holy unction” (p.88). This quote is cited from Gustavus S. Paine’s book, “The Men Behind the King James Version” (Baker Book House 1959, p. 43). Paine does not suggest on that page that Barlow or any of the other translators had any motives less than pure. Instead he says, “About kings and queens, Barlow was always sound,” and that “King James greatly approved of him.” Where is the imperfect motivation and who are the “some”?

          • Frank

            And the author of this article has not done his homework as he has accused White of doing. His arguments are devoid of a full understanding. Never read White. Probably never will. KJV is not a translation. And it’s not the best English version. KJV only advocates drive people out of the Kingdom of God. I have seen it happen.

          • GibbyD

            “The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations?”

            A Critique of James R. White’s book

            By Dr. Thomas D. Holland, Th. D. (Email: [email protected])

            Justification by faith was the birth cry of the Protestant Reformation. The essential word for men like Luther was faith, which has its roots and life in the living word of God (Rom. 10:17). Today, however, the essential word seems to be justification. Men seek to justify their actions and systems of belief, often at the cost of truth and consistency.

            Those who believe the King James Bible to be the preserved word of God for the English speaking people will find no friend in the writings of James R. White and his recent book, “The King James Only Controversy: Can You Trust the Modern Translations?” (Bethany House Publishers 1995). White seeks to justify the use of modern versions such as the NIV and NASV while attacking those who hold to the Authorized Version as the word of God.

            It would take a volume to answer all White’s objections to the King James Bible and those who believe it. Those criticisms have all been addressed in the writings of those White opposes. However, some points of justification require further examination. The number of contradictions, straw man arguments, and false information is astounding. So are the number of endorsements his book has received by those who view it as “scholarly and accurate,” as quoted by Dr. Bruce Metzger, editor of the United Bible Society’s Greek text (the basic text for the NIV and TEV). Such endorsements are understandable considering supporters are themselves translators and editors of modern Greek texts.

            The real issue is never fully addressed in White’s book. In defending modern versions and attacking the Authorized Version, White gives the same old arguments: better texts, the difficulty in translation from one language to another, textural problems in the Textus Receptus (TR, the basic Greek text which underlined the Authorized Version of 1611), errors of the King James Bible, differing editions of the KJV, and the attitudes of those who support it. For example, he makes light of KJV only groups, stating they believe the KJV was “delivered to us via angelic messenger” (pp. 118-119). He boldly declares in one footnote:

            We have heard of small groups that go even further, claiming that the KJV was written in eternity, and that Abraham and Moses and the prophets all read the 1611 KJV, including the New Testament! (p. 6)

            White’s speculations are not scholarly, but merely ridicule and hearsay.

          • GibbyD

            CONTRADICTIONS

            Self contradiction seems to be a theme in his book. White states that time should be spent by pastors helping the sick and not defending text types and translations (introduction, p. IV), but then concludes that the Bible “requires us to study its history and the reasons for our trust in its veracity and accuracy” (introduction, p. VI). Apparently, White feels the KJV issue worthy of attention as he has just published a 286 page book on this issue, written a pamphlet entitled “New Age Bible Versions Refuted” in response to Gail Riplinger’s book on the subject, and has debated Riplinger twice and author Dr. D.A. Waite on this issue.

            In a series of contradictions, White cites several of Dr. Peter S. Ruckman’s books, stating that “charges of blasphemy, heresy and even stupidity, fly thick from some elements of the KJV Only movement” (introduction, p. V). Yet, on the same page he says, “The KJV Only controversy feeds upon the ignorance among Christians regarding the origin, transmission, and translation of the Bible.” According to White, this view causes conservative Christians to be viewed as “backwards” (introduction, p. VII). Further, KJV only groups are “an ‘opening’ through which cultic groups often enter into the thinking of the unsuspecting believer” (p. 27). White sends a mixed message that it is wrong to use words such as “heresy” and “stupidity” by supporters of the KJV, but condones the labels of “ignorance,” “backwards,” and “cultic” for advocates of the Authorized Version.

          • Frank

            Never read the book. Don’t care too. KJV is not the best English version. It has too many errors. You still do not have a full understanding of the Logos of God.

          • GibbyD

            God is a Spirit ( John 4:24)KJB. God is ( Holy )LOVE ( I John 4:7,8) God became a man in The Person of The LORD Jesus Christ ( John 1:1-14)KJB. If you know what LOVE is, then you should know Who God is . The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. If you are going to accuse someone of not understanding The WORD of God , You better know something of The Spirit if God . πνεῦμα, , πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ

          • Frank

            Yes, yes those are wonderful quotations of Scripture. But they still do not show you have a full understanding of the Logos of God as relates to the discusion concerning English versions of the Bible. The Logos of God grew mightily before we had the full written down Scriptures we have today revealed to us.

          • GibbyD

            FALSE INFORMATION

            The real issue is not the inspiration of the KJV, but the preservation of the word of God as stated in scripture (Ps. 12:6-7, Matt. 24:33, 1 Pet. 1:23). White seems to overlook the issue, touching on it briefly at the end of chapter three where he discusses the relationship between preservation according to the canonization of scripture and the keeping of the Bible as a whole. Again, is this not the same argument the liberal theologian uses to deny Biblical inerrancy? All liberal scholars believe in Biblical preservation in the same form touched on in the “King James Only Controversy.” But where is the scriptural support for such a view? Sadly for White and his cohorts, there is none.

            The essential question is asked on page 243, “Doesn’t Psalm 12: 6-7 promise that God will preserve his words?” After all, if God did not keep His words, then there is no need to argue about preservation. White asks, “Where does Psalm 12 say that the ‘words of the LORD’ refer to the King James Version of the Bible?” The response, and his insistence that Bible believers accept the King James Bible as inspired or re-inspired, shows that White has little understanding of the movement he opposes.

            Still, the issue is not if the KJV is inspired by God. It is whether God did what he said He would do and keep His words for His people? While some redefine the doctrine of inspiration and apply it to the KJV, most KJV advocates revere it as the word of God for the English speaking people without any proven error. Those who dispute this view will eagerly show some verse they perceive as mistranslated or contradictory. The truth is all such verses or places have Biblical and scholarly support to show they have been translated correctly.

            To “prove” his case, White singles out three KJV advocates: Dr. Edward F. Hills, Gail Riplinger and Dr. Peter S. Ruckman. Yet no quotations are given to prove his point. Where does Riplinger claim inspiration for the KJV? Dr. Ruckman states he believes the KJV to be God’s word for the English speaking people without any proven error. This is preservation, not inspiration. And even Dr. Hills, as quoted by White, states that the New Testament as we have it today was “not inspired but God-guided” (pp. 92, 93).

            The doctrine of preservation teaches that God kept and preserved all His words throughout every century so that believers can have the inerrant words of God. The difference between those who hold to the King James Bible as that word of God and those who accept the use of modern versions is this: supporters of the KJV can produce a Bible they believe is inerrant while defenders of modern versions can not.

            Another example of false information is White’s treatment of the “Johannine comma” (1 John 5:7). “If indeed the Comma was a part of the original writing of the apostle John, we are forced to conclude that entire passages, rich in theological meaning, can disappear from the Greek manuscript tradition without leaving a single trace” (p. 62). Without a trace? White thinks it was added in the fifteenth century. Yet, it was quoted by Cyprian in 250 AD, used by Cassiodorus in the early sixth century, and found in the old Latin manuscript of the fifth century and in the Speculum.

            White cites several verses where he claims the KJV has mistranslated the Greek. As already stated, it would take a volume to respond to all of White’s problems with the KJV. However, two things come to mind immediately. First of all, one must remember the scholarship of the KJV translators. These were not ignorant men. Most could read and speak several languages including Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic by the time they were in their early teens. They did not just read the languages of the Bible; they thought in those languages. They spent time not only teaching these languages, but also were responsible for writing Hebrew and Greek lexicons which are the basis of modern lexicons. It is hard to believe these men mistranslated a word and that all of them in the committee would agree with the mistranslation. It is one thing to say you do not like or agree with their translation; it is another to claim they translated it incorrectly. Secondly, the difference in translation can be seen in the modern versions. The very fact that the NASV, NIV, NRSV, and even the NWT all use basically the same Greek text yet reflect different readings shows that some Greek words can be translated with more then one meaning.

            Gustavus Paine, using one of the KJV translators, illustrates this point:

            …Dr. Richard Kilby, the translator in the Old Testament group at Oxford, heard a young parson complain in an earnest sermon that a certain passage should read in a way he stated. After the sermon Dr. Kilby took the young man aside and told him that the group had discussed at length not only his proposed reading but thirteen others; only then had they decided on the phrasing as it appeared. (“The Men Behind The King James Version”, pp. 137-138)

            Even if there were no questions about text types, variance in translation would still be argued. The KJV advocate argues preservation verses corruption, an argument of textual criticism. The issue of translation is secondary. After all, one can not argue proper translation until he has settled the issue of proper text.

          • Frank

            Naw they sure didn’t miss paying homage to Shakespeare in the 1611. Or Unicorns and Satyrs. KJV only advocates drive people out of the Kingdom of God. Seen it happen.

          • GibbyD

            Another of White’s discrepancies depicts those in the King James only movement opposing the use of Greek and Hebrew. White states (pp. 55-56):

            Recently I mentioned to a KJV Only advocate that I was teaching both Greek and Hebrew classes. He asked me what percentage of Christians today know Greek or Hebrew. I answered that it is a very small number, to which he replied ‘Good.’ No need to waste time with such things anyway, since you have God’s words in the AV 1611.

            Later he admits the Greek Textus Receptus is “…used today by nearly all KJV Only advocates…” (p. 63). How can KJV only advocates hate NT Greek and use the Greek TR at the same time? Every Bible college that believes the King James Bible to be the preserved word of God teaches New Testament Greek.

            White illustrates inconsistency in several other places throughout his book.

            Chapter two gives a discourse of “New and Improved,” noting this phrase comes from advertisers who are “not the most honest people in the world” (p. 9). While the beginning almost reads like a KJV only book against new versions, the chapter quickly changes to criticism of the KJV only movement as die hard traditionalism.

            Were homosexuals on the NIV translation committee? White emphatically denies this inquiry (p. 245) but then points out that Virginia Mollenkott was used as a consultant on matters of English style because “she had the reputation of being a committed evangelical Christian with expertise in contemporary English idiom and usage. Nothing was known of her lesbian views.” (pp. 245-246)

            White claims he is a “biblical conservative” (introduction, p. VII) and believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Yet he states, “To err is human” (p. 36). His point that the translators of the KJV were human and subject to error is the same argument the liberal scholar uses about the issue of Biblical inerrancy.

          • Frank

            Unicorns and satyrs and paying homage to Shakespeare. Not exactly accidental errors.

          • GibbyD

            Although White points out the fine work Gustavus Paine did on the translators of the KJV, he overlooked Paine’s conclusion:

            Though we may challenge the idea of word-by-word inspiration, we surely must conclude that these were men able, in their profound moods, to transcend their human limits. In their own words, they spake as no other men spake because they were filled with the Holy Ghost. Or, in the clumsier language of our time, they so adjusted themselves to each other and to the work as to achieve a unique coordination and balance, functioning thereafter as an organic entity–no mere mechanism equal to the sum of its parts, but a whole greater than all of them. (“The Men Behind the King James Version,” p. 173)

            White then proclaims that the translators were Anglicans, like Westcott and Hort, and believed in baby sprinkling (p. 71). Actually, the translators were Anglicans and Puritan. As for believing in baby sprinkling, he forgot to mention that the translators were more concerned with producing God’s word for the English speaking people then they were in their church’s doctrine. In the original preface to the KJV the translators wrote, “If we be the sons of the truth we must consider what it speaketh and trample upon our own credit, yea and upon other men’s too.”

            White also has a series of quotes from the original preface to the KJV written by one of the translators, Dr. Miles Smith. It would be rather tedious to examine all the quotes, most of which prove nothing or are taken out of context. For example, White seems to think the translators of the KJV favored the need for additional translations and therefore would welcome modern versions (p. 76). It is true the translators stated a “variety of translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the scriptures.” But this statement must be placed in its context. In marginal notes, expandatory definitions would be profitable. At the time the average reader owned few books, if any, and did not have access to the great wealth of study Bibles we have today. Marginal notes explaining words would make the use of the text that much more “profitable.” The translators would not accept the readings of modern versions. They had English translations based on the same type of textural readings of modern versions in the Catholic (Douay) Bible. The translators wrote “…and all is sound for substance in one or the other of our editions, and the worst of ours (that is before 1611) is better than their authentic vulgar.”

            The translators plainly state that their work was equal to David bringing the Ark into Jerusalem and Solomon building the temple. Their conclusion was, as even cited by White, that the KJV “containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God” (p. 75). They restated this with, “And this is the word of God, which we translate,” noting that it was God who “…removeth the scales from our eyes, the veil from our hearts, opening our wits that we may understand His word…” (Further, no matter how simple a translator makes a translation, it will not be understood until God opens our eyes. After all, the Bible is a spiritual book). One can say what he wishes about the translators of the KJV but the facts are very clear. The translators believed they translated the very word of God and that their work was beyond themselves.

            White also advocates his idea of “expression of piety” (pp. 43, 45, 46). Simply put, the Greek text of the KJV is “fuller” because it uses expanded titles in reference to Jesus Christ. White notes twenty-three examples of where “He” becomes “Jesus”, “The Lord” becomes “The Lord Jesus”, or where “Jesus Christ” becomes “The Lord Jesus Christ.” This “expansion of piety,” White concludes, “led people to naturally expand the titles used of the Lord, possibly even without their conscious effort to change the text” (p. 46). What evidence does White offer for this “expansion of piety” theory? He gives an example of a caller who phoned in while he was on the radio and complained that he should use the phrase “The Lord Jesus Christ” instead of “Jesus.” Does modern scholarship now consist of proof by radio?

            This “expansion of piety” is not limited to 23 cases. The Greek texts of the United Bible Society differs from the TR 212 times on this issue of the names of God. The NIV omits the name 173 times while the ASV does so 210 times. Since the scriptures teach us “that in all things He might have the preeminence” (Col. 1:18), it makes sense to use a Bible with the “expansion of piety” than to have one where Christ is not as prevalent.

          • Frank

            All the author’s arguments are hollow and empty. And KJV only advocates drive people out of the Kingdom of God.

          • GibbyD

            { I John 5:7 } “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.””And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:” ( Ephesians 6:17)KJB

            “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” ( John 1:14)KJB

            “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ” (John 1:1 )KJB

            The LORD Jesus Christ is The incarnate Word of God

            So yes , I do know *Who* The Word of God is .

          • Frank

            You do not know the meaning of the Logos of God. You and the other KJV only people help drive people away from the Kingdom of God as I have witnessed numerous times.

            Book of life. Oh, the irony of the verse with the word not in Greek. Jesus is not KJV only. The Logic of God will not restricted to your KJV. You do not have a wholesome understanding of a great many things of the Reason of God, the history of the Bible, it’s origins, the manuscripts, nor the KJV.

          • GibbyD

            No Frank , I studied all that in Bible College back in the early 80s . I understand the Inspiration , Canon , Transmission , history etc . I studied all of that long before you even professed to be a real Christian . Four years of Bible College , 36 years of experience as a student of The Bible , street preacher, evangelist etc. I do not say or believe in King James Bible only . I believe in KING JAMES BIBLE SUPREME !!! You still have never shown me one irrefutable example of an error in The King James Bible . You would like to correct the Bible so that you can become the final authority . I am not falling for that . Jesus Christ is THE LORD . Jesus Christ is come in the flesh .

          • Frank

            I’ve been telling you the errors. Book of life. Oh the irony of the verse in which it is changed and not in the Greek. Church mistranslated. The tribute to Shakespeare. That’s just a small sampling why the KJV is not supreme.

          • GibbyD

            CONCLUSION

            By in large, these are the same old arguments those who oppose the Authorized King James Bible have always used. You can ask, “Which edition of the KJV do you have, the 1611 or the 1769?” And like White, you can cite what you view as “Problems in the KJV.” This is nothing new and the question still remains unanswered, “Where is the inerrant Bible you speak of?”

            White argues that those who can answer the above question by producing a Bible which can be seen, read, and tested have become cultists looking for “absolute certainty.” In fact, he compares them to Roman Catholics looking for absolute certainty in the infallibility of the Pope. He compares them to the Mormons who look for absolute certainty in the authority of the Apostles in Salt Lake City and to Jehovah’s Witnesses who look for absolute certainty in the Governing Body of the Watchtower (p. 94). Strangely, all these groups would agree with White that the KJV is full of errors and they have something better. They are free to believe as they wish but truth dictates the assurance that God has kept and preserved His words. On this issue we can be absolute and certain.

            “For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh in you that believe.” (1 Thess. 2:13)

            “Commendo vos dilectioni Dei, et odio papatus et superstitionis.”

          • Frank

            And the author doesn’t fully understand the Logos of God. KJV is not inerrant. It’s not the best English version out there. It’s not even a translation.

          • wandakate

            Then what in your opinion is a good supportive truthful one to read? What Bible should a person buy and study if not the KJV.?

          • Frank

            Please note I am only saying the KJV Only stance is incorrect. There are many English versions that are worth studying. I personally use several along with the Greek text and the Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek English Lexicon and a concordance. Many times the English does not do what was originally said and meant justice. So often doctrines are made from mistranslations of texts, such as putting a verb into present tense when it is in past tense in the original language. I would also recommend reading the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers, the ones before the Nicene creed such as Polycarp who was directly under the apostle John. That can all be found online for free. Not the quotes you see people use but the full letters they wrote.

          • wandakate

            Yes, precisely, the KJV only is not good. I agree that seeing words in Hebrew or Greek would be good. It is therefore always helpful to have a lexicon handy as well as a concordance. I know about the Nicene creed and Constantine who changed many things under decree of death back in 325 I think it was. I have a study on Polycarp also. One I might mention is where it’s talking about JESUS crucifixion and it talking about when He was speaking to the thief on the cross beside Him. Keep in mind there were no commas back then so it was written…I tell you this, today you will be with me in paradise. BUT, because there were no commas in the translation the comma was put after this (,) and it should have been after the word today (,). It was written incorrectly and should have read…
            I TELL YOU THIS TODAY, YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE.
            Why? Because JESUS didn’t go to Paradise that day, He went to the tomb (the grave) and He was there as He said He would be for 3 days and 3 nights.
            He wasn’t telling the thief that he would go with him “that day” to paradise. He was telling the thief that, “you will be with me in paradise”. BUT, He meant you will be there, when your time comes. The thief died, they put him in a grave, the thief is in the grave, however, when JESUS appears and they open up, that thief will go to be with JESUS. Why, because JESUS told him that he would go, that he would be there. JESUS didn’t ascend unto the FATHER GOD for another 40 days. He appeared to many people first but He didn’t go back to Heaven the day that He died and neither did the thief. There has been much confusion about that passage as people do not understand how it was originally said and written down.
            Thank you for responding.

          • Frank

            Yes, and the Ante-Nicene writers also shows that their understanding of Word of God is very very different than what a lot of modern people portray it as such as the harmful KJV only mindset.

          • Lisa

            When I was a kid I used to believe in santa claus and the easter bunny. And I stopped believing that a long time ago. Guess I really never believed…. As an adult I used to believe in the pre trib rapture, used to believe that as a Christian I should wear a cross necklace, believed that christmas was about Christ and catholics were Christians. I don’t believe those things anymore. It isn’t really impossible to not believe something.
            So what do you think about Hebrews 10:39-39 and Matthew 24:10-11
            I think the people that Jesus is gonna say I never knew you are gonna be to people who think they are Christians but aren’t, doing everything they think is Christian but isn’t. That’s when they are gonna find out for sure they never really were.
            I’ve been to the site you post before.. I still believe I have a good translation. Haha, I used to believe that the NIV was a good one but then I moved on to the NASB. I seem to be able to do the impossible-I believe and disbelieve all the time!

          • GibbyD

            “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” ( Hebrews 10:39)KJB. —And where is there any indication in this verse that it is saying a born again Christian can lose their salvation ? Verse 26 of that chapter reveals that those that draw back, only received ” The knowledge of the truth “. That is head knowledge . “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” ( Hebrews 10:26)KJB. These did not , “..obey from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto them .” (Romans 6:17)KJB . In relationship to, ” His People ” that are saved , if they sin they will be corrected , either by a warning reproof or rebuke , chastisement and if need be , physical death .

            (Matthew 24:10,11)KJB “And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” —- This to a good degree is happening now . The great falling away is and has been happening for some time . The birth pangs of the greater more severe time in the future known as The Time of Jacob’s Trouble , is after The Church is removed from the earth . During that time , any salt and light influence the church had in restraining evil , will be gone . The age of grace will be over too . During that time of Great Tribulation anyone who trusts in Christ through the preaching of the 144,000 virgin Jewish men that are saved and sealed to preach the everlasting Gospel , will have to ” endure to the end to be saved. They will have to refuse the mark of the beast . During that time , salvation will be by grace but you will have to “endure till the end to be saved” . That salvation could speak of physical salvation , in essence to be saved from death from the forces of anti-Christ , but most likely it meant salvation of your soul . I say this because the Scriptures do not indicate that if you take the mark of the beast , that there is any way that you could then confess that wrong and be forgiven .

            We are now looking at the last week of Daniel’s “Seventy Weeks” prophecy (Dan.9). Israel has seven years left before the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom. It will begin with the appearance of two prophets (Rev.11) on the scene in Israel prophesying for the first 3½ years. Their words will seal 144,000 Jews of Israel and servants of God (Rev.7) who will preach the “everlasting gospel” until their martyrdom in the middle of the week. Verses 1-5 deal with the identity and task of the 144,000 Jews. Verses 6-13 deal with the gospel they will preach. The events of these 13 verses will take place after the middle of the week. The rest of the chapter (verses 14-20) deals with the preparation for the Battle of Armageddon.

            Lisa , there are many dangerous religious cults and religions in the world such as Jehovah Witnesses , Mormonism , Islam etc. I suggest http://www.carm.org for more information about them .

            When I mentioned about a born again Christian , I am speaking about someone who is a New Creature in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. This person has not believed just with their head but they have , ” ..obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto them ” *( Romans 6:17)KJB. Those do not lose their salvation . We realize that we can’t do anything to earn or keep ourselves saved . The LORD is the One Who begins the work in our heart and He is the one Who promises to keep that which I have commuted unto Him against that day . We serve and obey now by His grace , not in order to be , become or stay a born again Christian , but rather because we ARE born again Christians . Do you understand the difference ?

          • Lisa

            Wow Gibby, thank you for condescending to talk to me! Between you and fundisi I am put off bible college, I would only turn into an arrogant snob. Hebrews 10:26 says for if we go on sinning after receiving knowledge of the truth…. He’s talking to believers. 38 and 39 totally talk about a believer-that would be the righteous one. Talking about the believer and if the believer shrinks back its to destruction.
            So you must be a pre tribber. Once you believe and all that. I will pretend you are right. If you become a believer after the rapture why do you have to endure to the end? Your saved just like people now who are saved, same difference they are saved and they are all set aren’t they? Once saved always saved? Well unless they were pretending, then they aren’t saved so they aren’t gonna endure to the end. So then who is it who needs to endure to the end? That’s rather confusing. Sounds like you read left behind and your quoting verbatim from them. But golly thank goodness you are here to give me the break down on revelation so I would have some sort of clue-wow!
            And yet I wasn’t asking you for a place to go to study up on cults….
            I understand a great many things Gibby thanks for asking. If there is no chance that righteous will shrink back or fall away why even mention it? People will fall away and it will be Christians. The disciples fell away for a time and if you would have asked them they would have denied they would do such a thing. Peter especially said he wouldn’t. Jesus says they will fall away from the faith-meaning Christians and I didn’t see where He said its not the Christiana before the rapture but after-it’s those who will fall away. Why are believers rescued before the great trib anyway? They are believers shouldn’t they live by faith even in the worst circumstances? But then we are led to believe that after the rapture that more believers will pop up and believe under the worst circumstances for Christians the world has ever seen and they won’t be saved until the end? But believers now get a pass? That makes no sense. Wouldn’t the believers now have a better chance having spent all their lives in faith then the baby Christians? Maybe you think that baby Christains will fall away? But then if they are Christians-the real ones you say they can’t fall away….. Once they believe it’s impossible to disbelieve!

          • wandakate

            HOGWASH…All of it…I’ve been reading, researching and studying since 1999. The Once Saved Always Saved gospel is false. JESUS “never” said anything about it. He told us we could lose our salvation, that we could and would fall away. He said that our names can be blotted out of His book of life where all the names are of all the real true Christians (kept for Him by His angels). We were to trust and obey and there is no other way. People don’t like to be told they can lose their salvation but they can b/c JESUS said plainly that they could. I’ll stick with what JESUS told us and not be concerned about what man believes b/c most Christians are so deceived, programmed and brainwashed it’s pitiful. They have learned a lie and they live and believe those lies.

          • Lisa

            I totally agree with you there! I once told a lady that I believed we could lose our salvation and she told me that that would be scary if that were true but said she believes the once saved always saved gospel. I think it’s a little like Jeremiah. He kept telling the people what was gonna happen to them and it wasn’t good so they started listening to other prophets that told them things they liked to hear more. Lies against the truth. And I am not in any sense saying I am a prophet but I feel like it’s the same kind of deal where I try to say but hey the Bible says this and people say no we don’t want to hear that we want to hear something better. I feel like people don’t really understand who God is at all when they keep trying to say He’s loving so they think that means something completely different then what I read in the Bible about God and His ways. When Jesus plainly says people will fall away to keep saying that once your saved you’re always saved seems kind of foolish to me. God doesn’t lie.

          • wandakate

            Again, that is true. GOD does not lie. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Scripture tells us that people want what their itching ears want to hear. They always want to know that the glass is half full and not half empty. They want the sermons sugarcoated. They love the watered down gospel while warming up the pews. They don’t want any more truth because it makes them feel guilty. They feel scared and judged, so preachers try to keep it simple as not to cause any toes to get stepped on and they don’t want people to not put their money in the offering plate so they make them comfortable with their “feel good gospel”. And that is the truth, and scripture says it’s the truth that will set you free. GOD is trying to tell them His ways and His laws and wants them to obey Him and not man. But humans don’t want the things of GOD, but only what man says b/c that’s easier. Instead of doing what JESUS would do, we make up all our own rules and even write up a new constitution which is being done now. The old one won’t be followed anymore, part of the New World Order of things. Many things are getting ready to change for the worse this year but I know, (don’t say that) b/c it’s not what people want to hear. But, what is the “truth” and what people want to hear are not the same. For the ones that don’t listen, they will be the ones not prepared and will suffer accordingly.

          • Lisa

            What things are going to change for the worse this year?

          • wandakate

            Oh Lisa, I am not a mind reader of the LORD. His plans for planet earth are many. Our government is a big player in end time events. I think our freedom is being taken away gradually and I am concerned about viruses as well as a horrible economic crash around the last quarter of this year even an EMP could hit us and knock out power. Many things are in the world. Hold tight to the faith and GOD will never leave you or forsake you. He love you so much and He will be with you even in death. We may die a physical death but GOD will be with us spiritually. The Kingdom of GOD is spiritual, it’s not physical. We die, the spirit leaves the body and goes back to GOD that gave it and the body/soul goes in the ground. We are aware of nothing at all until JESUS returns and opens up the graves. Keep the faith…bless you.

          • Lisa

            I don’t know either, I know people have been waiting years for the economic crash. I believe there will be one according to Revelation 6:6. I think that the Supreme Court is going to legalize gay marriage. I have no insider knowledge or anything, it’s just what I think. The world is going to wax worse and worse and it seems that it does that by degrees and not all at once. I agree that many things are in the world now. That’s why it’s imperative to believe God and not man and be alert. It is good to know that God is with us always and never forsakes us because we Christians will need to endure and persevere through it all. Have a good day!

          • wandakate

            There won’t be a secret rapture or any rapture where Christians just start disappearing from the earth like in the movies Left Behind.
            The scriptures tell us we will be here for the seal and trumpet judgments. JESUS will appear and the graves will open but not until the 7th trumpet. Read Revelation 11:15-19 and you will hopefully see where that is when JESUS comes and takes the world from satan at that time.
            Here are a few websites that have news of what’s going on for now and in the future and you might want to check them out.
            THESLEUTHJOURNAL.COM
            OMEGASHOCK.COM
            EZEKIELSFIRE.COM
            Let me know if you find any of those helpful, if not I have a lot more that people can check out.

          • Lisa

            I checked out the websites you suggested and I’m not interested in them. I have investigated many of the special interest things on the sleuth journal already. And the other two sites I don’t think they’re good. The problem is is when you start down the conspiracy theory stuff is you take your eyes off the Lord. I know about those things but I choose to keep my eyes on the Lord and to trust Him. The people on those sites may or may not know what’s going on but my guess is they have to keep a roof over their heads too and that’s how they do it.

          • wandakate

            Ok, sorry they were of no help. What about Irvin Baxter are you familiar with him, a pastor and he has the site endtime.com
            then there are many others but I was just trying to find some that tell you what’s going on and this to be aware of. I was trying to be helpful. If you give you more I’m not sure you would like them either. Focus on the LORD that’s best. Sometimes I have found that what we think is a conspiracy theory turns out to be the real deal. take care Lisa.

          • Lisa

            Thank you for caring enough to share those sites with me. Dont get me wrong I learned a lot from sites like those but in the end whatever happens to us we must trust in the Lord to save us. And I don’t mean that by focusing on the Lord that I’m not learning or keeping watch on the world-I still do that too, just not at those sites, I’m just a little more skeptical now with what I do read. I do agree about what you said about a conspiracy theory but not everything is a conspiracy theory and those sites thrive on everything is.

          • GibbyD

            The Church is gone before Revelation 4 and does not appear again until we who are His Bride return with Him at the second coming . A trumpet and a trump , are not the same .

          • wandakate

            Ok, why you don’t tell us the difference in the two of them? Also, keep in mind that the book of Revelation WAS NOT written in chronological order. John was going back and forth from heaven to earth is the visions. Read Rev. 11:15-19 and that is where JESUS takes control of this world from the evil one (satan). This is satan’s kingdom right now (thus all this evil we see), but JESUS will appear and take it from him. What happened to the appearing of JESUS when all the graves open and the saved come out of their sleep (graves) and the ones alive meet them in the air? Where does that happen. You are saying he is coming with saints (his bride) and that they are returning with him at the second coming, but you forgot about Him coming with His host of heavenly angels to go to the four corners of the earth and gather up all those saints to begin with. The graves must open, and people will meet JESUS and His multitude of angels in the clouds. So are you saying that happens before, after or not at all? JESUS isn’t coming with anybody from heaven or saints, he’s coming with the angels.

          • GibbyD

            He comes ” for His Saints” ( I Thess. 4;16,17; I Cor. 15:51,52)KJB. And seven years later , will come ” with His Saints ” . In a moment , at any moment , perhaps Today . Are you ready or are you still trusting in something other than , ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. If you believe you can lose your salvation , how are you not sure that you already have ? Instead of trusting only in Christ and the finished work of The LORD Jesus Christ , you will probably start checking how good you think you are or how much you think you have obeyed , or how much you think you love God or are remorseful for wrongs etc. Even our tears of repentance need to be washed in the blood of The LORD Jesus Christ . HE ALONE IS WORTHY , HE ALONE SAVES US AND KEEPS US SAVED .

          • wandakate

            Gibby D…You didn’t answer my questions at all. You said nothing about the difference b/t the trump and the trumpet. You said they were different, so how is that?
            You think he’s coming 2 more times, once to get the saints and again with them?
            SO, in effect you’re saying he comes a total of 3 times. He came as a baby and was JESUS, then He left the earth in the clouds, and returned to GOD in Heaven, now he’s coming again to open the graves and raise the dead and those will all be going with him…correct so far? Then he comes back after 7 years again with all the saints that He took with Him last time…
            WELL, I have studied all of it sine 1999 and I can’t find 3 total comings of JESUS.
            This coming with the saints that you are speaking of isn’t until the battle of Armageddon. Doesn’t He return with them to fight the battle on white horses? I think there is some confusion here in what you have been told or interpreted something that’s not quite right.
            The bible says that when He appears it will be in the clouds with the angels (not the saints). You left out the whole 1,000 year millennium. What happens to that.
            And another thing that you said is that He can come anytime, maybe today. If I die in a car accident or have a heart attack or die in my sleep then yes for me it’s over (he would have taken me out), BUT, did you not read the scriptures? JESUS “IS NOT” going to come until the 7th trumpet when He comes and takes possession of this evil world away from satan. He said that He WILL NOT COME until the great falling away (massive people turning from their faith) AND ALSO the man of sin must come, the antichrist will come FIRST “before” JESUS appears again, and NOT AFTER as you have been taught. The pre-tribulation rapture theory is part of the fell good gospel. It will make you feel okay and at ease but it’s still not the truth.
            Did you even read Revelation 11:15-19? What happens right there? Looks like JESUS has taken possession of the earth and it happened at the 7th trumpet didn’t it?
            Christians are going to be very unprepared b/c they think they are going out of her with this catching away-calling up-rapture, but they must face the falling away AND the antichrist and his mark before they go anywhere. The seal and trumpet judgments are for everybody, not just the lost souls. We are not appointed to the wrath of GOD, but we are going to “suffer” greatly through the wrath of satan. GOD’s wrath isn’t until the end at the last 7 trumpets called the bowl judgments. Don’t be deceived like I used to be. Remember the faith is no good without the works…Everybody is in this together until JESUS comes.
            I am saved and have been baptized twice, so thank you for your concern but I know what’s the truth as I have gotten away from the lies.
            I know you were taught different but that’s why you feel so good b/c they have tickled your itching ears and told you what you wanted to hear instead of the real truth…

          • GibbyD

            You must be born again. ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23)KJB. Being baptized will not save you no matter how many times you do it . I was saved ( born again ) in 1979 when I stopped trusting my own ” goodness” and works to save me and ceased from all of that and simply trusted in Christ alone and His finished word at Calvary . I was not taught the truth growing up . i was raised as an unsaved Lutheran . After i was became born again I began started studying the Bible for myself . So far in the last 36 years I have been saved , I have read through my Bible over 40 times . I have been blessed to be able to have memorized much of it and meditate upon it most of the day . I was not taught by anyone but The Holy Spirit concerning the truths of the chronology of the future “appearing for ” and later “coming to the earth of” The LORD Jesus Christ . A Trumpet is a musical and or military instrument . A Trump is the sound that instrument makes .————————– The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine says that the rapture will occur at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period, which immediately precedes the return of Jesus. The mid-tribulation rapture doctrine says that the rapture will occur 3 1/2 years before Christ returns, or halfway through the great tribulation period of seven years. The post-tribulation doctrine says that the rapture will occur at the same time as the return of Christ, or at the end of the seven-year tribulation. All of these positions fall within the realm of Christian orthodoxy.

            The verses used to support the doctrine of the rapture are as follows:

            1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

            1 Corinthians 15:20-23, “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.”

            1 Cor. 15:51-52, “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

            Please note that the verses found in Matthew 24 and Luke 17, that deal with two men in the field and one is taken while the other is left, are not dealing with the rapture. This is a common misunderstanding about those verses. Upon close examination of the texts in Matthew 24 and Luke 17, you will find that the ones who were taken are the wicked. In fact, Jesus’ disciples ask where they are taken and he gives them an answer: “Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered,” (Luke 17:37).

            The pre-trib rapture ( catching up) before the time of Jacob’s Trouble , is not a new teaching but has been believed from the time of the early church as they read about it from God’s Word. The Church is NOT Israel . God has made promises to the nation of Israel that He will fulfill . Without a pre-trib, pre-mil understanding of the Bible’s eschatology , these Scriptures concerning Israel cannot be fulfilled .

          • wandakate

            I was born again and the old me left and the new me is here. I am not doing anywhere close to what I was before I was saved and I am a new and different person now than I used to me.
            You are preaching to me all of the mainstream gospel. I DO NOT believe in the pre-trib. I told you it’s not true. You will find out when the antichrist appears and you know what the mark of the beast is that it was all just a lie to make people “feel good”. You are deceived and don’t even know it. Just as I used to be and I didn’t know it either. The LORD showed me why and I just like you read and studied and researched over and over the English and looked also at Hebrew and Greek.
            There is no point in us continuing this as I know just as the bible says that JESUS doesn’t come until the 7th trumpet. Remember the verse (can’t think of it’s location), For the trumpet will sound, and the dead in CHRIST will rise. It will happen at the last trumpet. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the LAST TRUMPET…Why do you want to make it something else?
            I understand nobody wants to be here for the tribulation but you are purposely avoiding ALL of those passages that say the saints will suffer. They will be martyred for their faith in JESUS. Even JESUS prayed to the FATHER asking Him to protect us but not to remove us from the evil one.
            For someone who claims to know SO MUCH about all this, you sure do manage to leave out a lot. Only those that OBEY JESUS and persevere to the very end are the ones that will be saved.

          • GibbyD

            Yes , IF you have been born again and IN CHRIST made a new creature , ” old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:17). “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” ( Romans 6:11)KJB. “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” ( Galatians 2:20)KJB

            What the Bible teaches is not what the “mainstream” and majority of Christians believe and are taught these days because of the Great Falling Away , The Apostasy. Most of the professing “Christiandom” teaches a mix of works and faith for salvation , just as you do . Roman Catholic doctrine , Mormons, “Jehovah witnesses” , and even many false religions teach works and faith such as Islam does . The Bible teaches that we are saved by Grace through faith and that not of ourselves , it is THE GIFT of God NOT of works , least any man or woman boast. The reason why an authentic Christian serves , works and obeys The LORD , is not in order to become or stay a Christian but because he is a Christian .

            There has been persecution and suffering for The Church and Christians since it’s founding . What happens though during the Great Tribulation is set to happen and is primarily for Israel . God will fulfill His promises . This happens right after the time of the gentiles is full . When that last person to be saved in the Church age is saved , then what follows is The Time of Jacob’s Trouble .

            –“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
            And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
            For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” (Romans 11:25-26)KJB

            “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of JACOB’S TROUBLE ; but he shall be saved out of it.
            For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
            Therefore fear thou not, O my servant JACOB , saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O ISRAEL : for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and JACOB shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
            For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” ( Jeremiah 30:7-11)KJB ————- Kate , those in Christ had their punishment for sin laid on Christ and He bore it for them . This time of Great Tribulation punishment and trouble , has to do with Israel and the unbelieving nations and peoples left on the Earth after The Bridegroom catches away His bride , The Church .

            Kate, concerning the Trump and Trumpets , here are the differences . The trumpet of the church age is called the “trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15).

            The trumpet of the church age is singular. There is no mention of a series of trumpets. The trumpet of Revelation is the seventh of seven. The phrase, last trump, has a different significance as we will see later.

            In 1 Thessalonians 4, the trumpets calls the dead to life. The seventh trumpet of Revelation occurs after a resurrection occurs (Revelation 11:12).

            The trumpet of the church age comes as a blessing. The trumpet of Revelation comes with judgment and is called the third woe (Revelation 11:14).

            The trump of the church age sounds in “a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Corinthians 15:52). The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounds for “days” (Revelation 10:7).

          • GibbyD

            men will was worse and worse . It is the earth that will wax old like a garment .

          • Lisa

            Ya I probably should have stuck to what the verse actually said, but I said earth because I was also thinking about the earthquakes and the famines. It’s all gonna be worse. Don’t hear much about earthquakes when they aren’t big but some websites list the days and areas of them, there are a lot more than I thought there were. I was thinking of the sinkholes that though not mentioned in the Bible seem kinda prevalent in the past few years. Sinkholes big enough to swallow up cars, houses and trees. Maybe it’s me but I never heard that before. Or sightings of mass animal deaths. The earth itself doesn’t seem to be doing well at all. California and the drought seems kinda weird but then there could be other reasons for it if you believe chem trails and haarp. Famines seem to happen in Africa quite a bit, whether by design of the dictators or not. Then there’s the various tornados that seem out of control too the last few years, the sunami’s and for a while the hurricanes. To me it seems everything is waxing worse and worse.

          • GibbyD

            Yep , all of that plus it will wax old like a garment and then eventually burn up . “Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.” ( Isaiah 51:6)KJB. “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” ( 2 Peter 3:10)KJB.

            11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.( 2 Peter 3:11,12,13)KJB

          • Lisa

            I have found where a Christian can lose their salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6
            For in the case of those who once have been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and of the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
            You may want to rethink your position.

          • GibbyD

            Notice that the verse never says they were born again saved children of God . To be ” enlightened ” means they knew in their heads the truth . To ” taste ” something is not eat or consume it but rather to check it out and see if they like or want it . Those that drink alcohol tell me that at fancy restaurants that they bring a bottle of wine over to you and let you ” taste” it . After tasting it , they either decide to have a glass filled so that they can fully drink it or they choose another wine to taste and or refuse any wine at all . The word ” partaker ” , is not the word Part Taker . These had no real part or inclusion in the true body of Christ yet, but were Par-takers, meaning that came along side The Holy Spirit without ever being filling with HIM. That is even what the Greek word for partaker means , { to come along side}. The KJB English (Par-taker) is sufficient and gives the same sense. The people that are described in Hebrews 6:4-6 had every opportunity to become born again , for they heard and knew the truth but instead turned from it. In the end they loved darkness rather than the light , even though they knew the light was good. What was really needed for their salvation was more than just to taste or come along side . What they needed to do , which they did not , was , ” ..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. They NEVER, ” obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine ( the Gospel) delivered unto them.” ( Romans 6:17)KJB.

          • wandakate

            I think He’s speaking of falling away from the faith. Those who were saved completely and lived the Christian life and tasted the good of it, and then they decided to go the other route and turned on the LORD. They knew and they abandoned the faith. I do not believe we are always saved b/c JESUS said that our names can be blotted out of the book of life.

          • GibbyD

            Kate, that passage does not say anything about being born again , ” saved Completely” , or saved at all . Becoming a Born Again, saved ,child of God , did not and does not depend on us ” Doing” but rather ” Believing”. “Repentance toward God” means that you believe that there is a God and that you believe Him enough that you turn toward and repent toward Him . The second part, which is a simultaneous act of faith at the same time that you are repenting toward God , includes ” Faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. . If a true born again Christian could lose their salvation ( which that can’t) , then they would have to Un-believe it . This begs the question then, did they really believe God and The Gospel in the first place ? True salvation recognizes that we can’t do anything good to save ourselves , that there is nothing good in ourselves that would be worthy enough to save us from our sin and the penalty of it which is everlasting damnation in Hell . The reason we need The LORD Jesus is because we can’t save ourselves and we can’t keep ourselves saved . The LORD Jesus Christ is the One Who saves us and is also the One Who that keeps us saved . —— The following is from a site that describes and explains the so called blotting of names from the Book of Life. —————————————————————————————————————————————————-From a purely logical standpoint, why would the sovereign and omniscient God—He who knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)—write a name in the Book of Life when He knows He will only have to erase it when that person eventually apostatizes and denies the faith? Additionally, if you read this warning within the context of the paragraph in which it appears—Revelation 22:6-19—you can clearly see God remains consistent in His theology: only those who have taken heed of His warnings, repented and been born again will have any good to look forward to in eternity. All others, sadly, have a terrible and terrifying future awaiting them.

            Revelation 3:5 is another verse that impacts this issue. “He who overcomes . . . I will never blot out his name from the book of life.” The “overcomer” mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: “Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world.” And verse 5: “Who is he that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.” (See also 1 John 2:13.) All believers are “overcomers” in that they have been granted victory over the sin and unbelief of the world.

            Some people see in Revelation 3:5 the picture of God’s pen poised, ready to strike out the name of any Christian who sins. They read into it something like this: “If you mess up and don’t win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!” But this is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.

            Never does Scripture say that God erases a believer’s name from the Book of Life—there is never even a warning that He is contemplating it! The wonderful promise of Revelation 3:5 is that Jesus will NOT erase one’s name. Speaking to the “overcomers”—all those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb—Jesus gives His word that He will not delete their names. He affirms that once a name is there, it is there forever. This is based on the faithfulness of God.

            The promise of Revelation 3:5 is directed to believers, who are secure in their salvation. In contrast, the warning of Revelation 22:19 is directed to unbelievers, who, rather than change their hearts toward God, attempt to change God’s Word to suit themselves.

          • wandakate

            I think you are saying that once we are saved, we are always saved no matter what…We can rest assured that we are going to be in the kingdom of GOD and we’ll be protected.
            However, in James he tells us the our “faith without works is dead”. We need the obedience to GOD, we need the faith combined with our works/deeds and GOD’s grace to persevere and “overcome”.
            Are we to ignore the words in James. James 1:22…Be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. Sounds like some work and deeds to me.
            And verse 25…But whosoever loos into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the WORK, this man shall be blessed in his DEED (action-work).
            Can just our faith save us? James 2:14…What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not WORKS? Can faith save him? Verse 17…Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
            WE are according to James (vs. 18), to show our faith by our works/deeds.
            Our faith without our works is dead, it being apart from works is foolish. By our works we are made perfect, (vs.22). Vs.24 says…You see then how that by WORKS, a man is justified, and not by faith only.
            Vs. 26…For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. ( it takes both of them).
            When we know to do good, and do it not, it is considered a sin.
            You can reach your own conclusions, but I do think that if we fall away from the faith, our name can be blotted out of the book of life if GOD sees fit for that to happen. Remember also that JESUS said, I want you hot or cold, if you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth (have nothing to do with you) which could cause him to blot our names out of the book.
            He also said that the harvest is plentiful, but the WORKERS are few. Who would be the workers? I would think it would be the Christians. Our works do matter and we can lose our salvation.

          • GibbyD

            The book of James is speaking about JUSTIFICATION not SALVATION . They are two different words with two different meanings . Also something to consider —> ” James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.” ( James 1:1) . kate , Which particular tribe do you belong to ?

          • Solomon Jewel

            You are like a fresh breeze in a stagnant pond.

          • Lisa

            Thank you for your kind comment!

          • wandakate

            YES Lisa you are so right. The Once Saved-Always Saved theory is a big lie. There is no biblical truth in it. We can certainly have our names erased from GOD’s book of life.

          • wandakate

            I am in agreement with most of what you wrote. The last time tripped me up. I believe in JESUS -ALL he time, and I never disbelieve but I was like you with the Santa and the Easter bunny and the Wicked Witches etc. I did all the worldly holidays and now do not b/c they are all pagan/heathen holidays and JESUS told us not to have anything to do with them. JESUS would not celebrate any of these man-made holidays if He were here on the earth. We were supposed to be honoring His Holy Days and His feast. He wasn’t born in December and what we know as Easter was Passover to JESUS. We have a lot of things messed up don’t we? I don’t believe in the feel good gospel either (the pre-trib rapture) is false and it serves no purpose other than to make people feel good. Pastors don’t want to step on toes and run away their people (numbers) so they preach that to soothe their itching ears. So, I’m with you there too.
            No we shouldn’t be wearing a cross (Catholic tradition). And Catholics think they are Christians and I am not their judge. The judging will all be up to JESUS when He comes.
            If we don’t OBEY, care for the orphans and the widows and treat our neighbor well we won’t be in the Kingdom of GOD. We must obey the commandments as JESUS told us. It was not a suggestion, it was a command, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. I don’t take that lightly. He meant what He said. SO, on that day many will be turned away. He said, “If you did this to the least of these my breathren, you did it unto me”. We were in effect treating JESUS the same way that we treated the neighbor. Be it good or bad. We either serve or we neglect and turn our heads. Our heart determines our condition. Looks are only skin deep, it’s really what’s inside that counts.

          • BJ4..u2

            Sometimes new information comes to light – what was believed to be true is no longer seen that way. The first belief was not “faked” – it may have been unquestioned and sincere – yet it can be supplanted by another belief. In any case, no amount of belief adds one iota to the objective truth of anything.

          • GibbyD

            “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” ( Hebrews 10:39). The ” belief ” that saves , is the one that stays . Otherwise it was only head knowledge . This is why The Scriptures tell us to, ” Obey from the heart that form of doctrine( The Gospel) delivered unto us ” ( Romans 6:17)KJB. Genuine salvation occurs when someone believes the Gospel by obeying it from the heart and thereby they become born again . ( 2 Corinthians 5:17; John 3:3; 1 Peter 1:23; Romans 6:17)KJB.

          • BJ4..u2

            What you just wrote could just as easily take the form of a former head belief that became one from the heart that led to the abandonment of religious beliefs previously held – even to the point where a person who’s been told something like, “If you’re not a Christian, then you’re an atheist” has no other way to reject what he’s found to be false might say he’s become an atheist.

          • GibbyD

            To have eternal life is to Know God ” And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. ” ( John 17:3)KJB. It is not a matter of having or abandonment of religious beliefs . This is about a personal relationship with God that is obtained by , “repentance toward God ( HOLY LOVE) and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ( God incarnate)” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. Believing you will see . NOT until then . If you knew what LOVE really was then you would know What and Who God is . ( I John 4:7,8; John 1:1-14)KJB

          • wandakate

            WE ARE NOT ALWAYS SAVED. JESUS plainly said that our names could be blotted out of his book of life. We must serve him to the best of our ability always, just not part of the time. We must “obey” him and JESUS said, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. That was by the way all 10 of them (the Moral Laws of GOD), not just 9 of them or the ones that will suit you and your lifestyle. He said that we must be hot or cold, if we are lukewarm He will spew us out of His mouth (have nothing to do with us). He has a peculiar people. JESUS said that we are His peculiar people. He also as you mentioned said that we MUST endure to the end. We must persevere and overcome. Overcome what? The evils of this world and the works of satan therein. We are NOT to take the dreaded mark of the beast. We are to count the cost and pick up our cross and follow Him to the end. Perilous times are coming and we must be ready. We are saved by grace yes but we will be judged by our works, they do matter. We can fall from grace and He is able to blot out our name from His book, He said He could do that, and I believe Him.

          • nodoubt257

            Wow. Rightly dividing the Word can do wonders. You should try it. You keep saying “God will blot your name out” over and over but did you know (from O.T) that the name of every living person who ever walked on this planet is written in His book? When they reject Christ they are blotted out (N.T)? You guys keep jumping all around in the Scripture when the Scripture, for example in Matt 24 is The Olivet Discourse (written) to the Jews- the people of Israel and not the Church, the Bride of Christ? The “perservering” saints are the Tribulation saints. They will be saved during the tribulation (Rev 7) and many will be martyred. The new Testament, believe it or not, has several readers. The Church (Age of Grace), The Jews (The Law), and the Tribulation Saints (who will be reading the bible) in the Tribulation. The bible addresses these readers. Seriously, on the surface you may think you understand but, pray for wisdom, understanding, discernment, and to rightly divide the Word.

          • wandakate

            Sounds like you read all the “fiction” books by Jerry Jenkins and Tim La Haye called “Left Behind”, an entire series of books. They were not biblically based at all, more fiction than anything.
            You probably also believe that you won’t be here for the reign of the antichrist or ever have to be concerned about the mark of the beast.
            You may even believe that once you are saved, you are always saved…Ok if that is correct, I said “IF”, then you need to pray from wisdom, understanding, discernment, and every other thing.
            When about will JESUS appear again? Do you know how He is going to come back? Do you know who is coming with Him?
            Rightly dividing the word of truth…I’m shocked.

          • nodoubt257

            Never read any books that have to do with their own version of end times events. The bible is enough for me. According to Scripture the saints are coming back with Christ. He comes back the way He left according to Acts. According to Scripture He comes back 1260 days after the abomination of Desolation takes place. No one knows when that happens until it happens.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg
      • wandakate

        We are NOT always saved. We can accept with good intentions, however JESUS said that we must persevere until the end. He said also that we must “obey”. The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. The works matter. We may be saved by our faith but we are judged by our works. Yes the righteous live by faith, because we cannot see Him now, but we still nonetheless believe. JESUS said if we are not hot or cold he will spew us out of his mouth (have no pleasure in us, nothing to do with us). We are either for him or against him. Can’t be in between, no grey areas there. He is an all or nothing GOD, and he doesn’t play games. He knows our hearts. Our names can be blotted out of the book of life. We can fall from grace. He’s looking for those warriors, the ones who won’t take the mark of the beast, the ones that won’t fall by the way side. JESUS said, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. And, “Take up your cross and follow me.” We can’t follow JESUS and follow the world at the same time.

        • GibbyD

          One way to ” fall from grace” is to believe that by works you can keep yourself saved or keep yourself from losing your salvation. The truth is , IF born again , always born again . And please explain what is your definition of ” Everlasting Life” .

          • wandakate

            Number one I haven’t fallen from grace b/c I never said that I believe that my works can keep me saved or from losing my salvation. That is what you said, that is not what I said. And WE ARE NOT ALWAYS SAVED as you say. That is NOT at all what JESUS said, so you are deceived about that one as are many people. My definition of everlasting life isn’t important, it’s what JESUS said that’s important. He said everlasting life will be with Him in the Kingdom of GOD that will never end “IF” one is truly saved and has been born again of the spirit. They obtain the new life, the old passes away and the new comes in… JESUS said that our names can be blotted out of the “book of life”.

          • GibbyD

            Where did I say, ” WE ARE NOT ALWAYS SAVED” ? We are not saved before we are born . We did not even exist before we were physically born . We are saved when we have experienced ” ..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB. When we honestly and have actually, ” ..obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine( The Gospel) delivered unto us.. ” (Romans 6:17)KJB , then and only then are we born again and thus saved and sealed forever , safe from the wrath to come . ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23; Philippians 1:6; Ephesians 1:13; Ephesians 4:30)KJB. The Bible declares that He that believeth on Him shall not perish but HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE” ( John 3:16) . If it were possible to ” lose it ” after truly having received it , then it was not ” everlasting life ” that you thought you had but only ” conditional life” . Jesus NEVER said that OUR names ( those that are now born again in the church age , age of grace) can be blotted out of the book of life. What God did say was , ” ..Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I WILL NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” (Revelation 3:4-6)KJB. Each passage that deals with unbelievers says that they were never written in the book of life. There is no verse in the Bible that says that a born again New Testament Church age Christian , can be blotted out of The Book of Life. If there is any implication that you are making by trying to prove a negative by reversing a positive , then you are the one that is deceived and are twisting the Scriptures . There is a ” book of the living” and book of life spoken about in the Old Testament and they concern the Jews . Being blotted out of the book of the living refers to physical death . Old Testament Jews could lose their salvation . . David prayed that The Holy Spirit not be taken from him . ( Psalm 51)KJB. Old Testament persons such as David could lose that Spirit because persons in the Old Testament were born again and or were INDWELT by The Holy Spirit . The Spirit only came UPON them . Again , the verse you say Jesus said , in fact He never did .If and when Jesus is speaking of those in His Church , He says of them that , He WILL NOT blot them out .

    • Intjuh

      No “True” Scotsman ever puts sugar in his porridge.

      • pax2u

        unfortunately I doubt if your reference will be understood, by the “true” Christians

    • leezy

      Amen to that brother

  • Ryan Nash

    My two favorite words in this piece are in the quotes from the comments. Where people say he had to be “saved” and he didn’t have “testimony.” I for one, didn’t have a big tent conversion. I’ve chosen in little steps, to push my life closer to God. Just as often, I’ve taken steps in the other direction. I understand. Living without faith is easier. When you don’t have faith, you never have to deal with doubt. Christ demands a lifelong journey to the Kingdom, not a sprint to an altar. Maybe he just didn’t know there’s another way to this Jesus than standing as a beacon of perfection in an imperfect world. After all, aren’t we all broken?

    • Lisa

      What does it mean that we are all broken? I thought we are all sinners?

  • http://FACEBOOK.COM Michelle Llewellyn

    SAD THE LOVE CHRIST HAS FOR ALL IS HUGE GOD IS GOOD MONEY DONT LAST FOREVER AN WELL THINGS OF THIS LIFE HERE TO DAY GONE TOMARROW GIVE JESUS A CHANCE BEFORE YA DENOUNCE YOUR FAITH GOD IS PATIENT AN HIS ARMS ARE WIDE.

  • Karen

    Many who believe in once saved always saved, seem to say “Well were they ever saved”? Maybe some were not but yes some were. Why would they turn their back on God? I have no clue. I know many who once were serving the Lord fervently and now are not. They were really saved at one time, but the things of this world got in the way of their relationship with God somehow. Why anyone would want to leave God is beyond me, especially after experiencing His Love and faithfulness. So, yes, you can be saved and walk away from God and there is danger in that. I don’t believe in OSAS. The Bible is very clear on lukewarm Christians.He will spit them right out of HIs mouth. Strong words!

    • Jonathan Fontenot

      Yes, He will spew them out of His mouth, because they do not know Him, but are only affiliated superficially. Read the parable of the vine dresser.

    • nodoubt257

      “Lukewarm” in Revelation 3 are not Born Again Believers, they have the appearance of Believers but they’re not saved. If you notice what Christ says about the Lukewarm “Poor, wretched, Naked, and blind” that is the description of the lost. That is never used to describe a Believer.

    • Lisa

      I agree with you Karen. Once saved always saved in not Biblical but a lot of people believe it is.

      • wandakate

        ALOT of people are easily swayed by the evil one (satan). A lot of people are deceived, brainwashed, and programmed to believe things that are out and out LIES…JESUS said, you don’t believe them. You don’t trust man, you trust GOD for your answers. What does the Bible tell us? If you believe the pastor and not the Bible what good is that? Listen to these pastors in most churches then go home and study the scriptures, and you are apps to find two different messages. They say lots of things that are not in the scriptures. They want your attendance, they want your offering each week. Are you getting the truth of the word? Ah, that is the question. Man will fail you, GOD will never fail you.

        • Lisa

          There is a lot of deception going on in the world-in fact since the world is ruled by the father of lies how could it not be? Lies are everywhere even in church and if you are following man and just believing what they say and not checking what they say against the word of God you are probably going to be deceived too. The Bible tells us not to trust man but to trust God only. So to follow after men is a bad choice.

    • nodoubt257

      Also Karen, if you are born again, you don’t become “unborn.” You are born again because of Christ’s righteousness. That is what God sees when He looks at you. It is not your “righteousness” (as if we had any) that gets you to heaven. That is why a truly born again believer would NEVER renounce Christ or walk away from Christ.

      • wandakate

        Who makes it into the Kingdom of GOD (heaven)? The saved, the righteous, the sanctified, the justified, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, the child of GOD. The ones that trusted Him, believed in Him, had faith in Him. The ones according to JESUS that DID NOT take the mark of the beast, the ones who DID NOT fall by the wayside, the ones who persevered until the END. They did not “escape” with a pre-tribulation rapture, but they were saved JESUS said, b/c they persevered until the very end. And I will raise them up on the “last day”. He’s coming for them at the sound of the 7th trumpet, see Revelation 11:15-19. This verse is the JESUS COMING verse. It’s when he takes possession of this world from the god of this world, none other than satan. Nobody’s going anyway and we are not always saved. We could have lost our salvation somewhere along the way, and our names will not be in the book of life. OSAS is a feel good gospel to make Christians feel okay even though they are not going to be okay in the end.

    • Gary

      The New Testament speaks of becoming a Christian as a new birth. A spiritual birth into the family of God. Just as you cannot reverse the process and become unborn physically, neither can you become unborn spiritually. Once saved, always saved. Real Christians never become atheists.

      • wandakate

        WE ARE NOT ALWAYS SAVED. That is not biblical. Show me where it tells us that we will never lose our salvation regardless. GOD is merciful, yes he is and we are saved by his grace, but we are judged by our works. If we fall away and are backslidden and lukewarm he is not going to continue over and over and over to forgive us. Either you are saved or you are not…He will blot your name out of His book of life, He said He would do that. You are deceived unfortunately and are believing things that are not in the scriptures.

    • John Mark IB

      true, in my own on my own without Him, I will actually , not might fail Him miserably, and can very easily if by allowing myself to be just that patterned after my own stupid humanistic and fleshly old nature or ways? if allowed to, but to completely renounce and walk away from The Very One Who died and gave Himself for me so I could live?? no way!! at most times I feel that I do and I just might fail Him worse than Peter did, and be more of the chief of sinners in my own mind and heart than Paul claimed to be, but never completely deny Him that’s utter insanity!! GOD bless you he needs to get truly saved and born again, sounds like he had bad religion instead of The Prince of Peace Jesus!!

      • wandakate

        ONCE we are truly saved JESUS said, “I will never leave you or forsake you”. He will never leave us. We may leave Him, but that will be our fault, our mistake or even our choice. Once the HOLY SPIRIT takes up residence with us, we’re not going anywhere. We must be born again. Meaning we will put on the new and shed the old. We will walk in His ways. We will trust Him, we will have our faith in Him, we will obey him. We will want to obey b/c we are saved by Him and not in order to be saved by Him. We can’t work our way into His graces, even though some preachers tell us we can. Not true at all. We are saved by His grace, but we will be judged by our works/deeds. We can’t really succeed without JESUS. We can’t do anything without Him. JESUS said, I can do nothing without the FATHER that sent me. I and the FATHER are one (meaning one accord, of one mind and thoughts). They were (JESUS and GOD) on the same page with each other, never skipping a beat, always in sync with one another.
        When we have the HOLY SPIRIT we are on the same wave length with JESUS, we are on the same page, of one accord. He and the FATHER wants that unity with us. JESUS prayed that GOD would be in Him and that He would be in us and we in Them. In other words a “family”, all belonging to each other. I can’t breathe, live or function properly without them. The LORD gives life and the LORD takes it away, blessed be the name of the LORD.

    • GibbyD

      ” really serving the Lord fervently ” is not what saves a person and or makes them a child of God . Jesus said , ” ye MUST be born again” ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23)KJB. If that ” life” you think you have in Christ can be lost , then it was not ” everlasting life ” that you had but rather conditional temporary life until you mess up enough. No, Everlasting Life means just what it says . It is “everlasting” . ( John 3:16)KJB. The LORD Jesus spoke about those who thought they were Christians but were not . “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” ( Matthew 7:23)KJB. The context was even about those who thought they were actually doing all kinds of good stuff for God . Notice though that Jesus says ” I NEVER knew thee” . That means that there never was a time that they were really saved born again believers .

      • wandakate

        Yes, what is the passage? “Not everyone who says unto me on that day, LORD, LORD, will enter the Kingdom of GOD, but ‘only’ the ones who do the will of the FATHER”. What is the will of the FATHER? To “obey” His commandments (all 10 of them), to care for the widow in their afflictions and to care for the orphan in need. To love the LORD first and to love our neighbors as ourselves and all the other commandments (the big 10) were still relevant as well. They are not obsolete and they have not been blotted out at JESUS death like has been taught.

        • GibbyD

          There were not just 10 commandments . There were 613 . They could not keep them then and they cannot keep them today . You cannot even keep the New Testament instruction perfectly . The Jews had the sacrifices in the old testaments but they spoke of the perfect ONE to come Who would be the ultimate sacrifice for sin. None of the Word of God is ” blotted out” by Jesus and I do not know anyone that teaches that . What Jesus has done though is FULFILL ALL THE LAW . Jesus lived a perfect life . Jesus NEVER sinned . That makes His sacrifice for our sins a perfect one . What does that mean to you or I ? “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” ( Romans 10:4)KJB. What is the context of that verse ? —– > “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” ( Romans 10:1-4)KJB. For salvation and to become a child of God , you have to be PERFECT ! Now you can trust your own ability and “goodness”or you can trust The ONE Who is Perfect and the Only One Who is GOOD. If you trust in your own righteousness you will be lost . If you trust ONLY in Christ’s righteousness that He will impute to your account by faith , you will be saved. ALL your righteousnesses are as filthy rags. ( Isaiah 64:6)KJB. If you experience the New Birth through , ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB, you will be saved and sealed by God . He will have begun a work you in you that He will complete . ( Philippians 1:6)KJB. You will have new desires and will never un-believe again because you will have become a new creature . ( 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB.————> “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” ( John 6:28,29)KJB

          • wandakate

            I read it. First of all JESUS was speaking to those Jews. They had the 600 plus laws. I know that it was impossible for “them” to keep them all just as it would be for “us” to keep them all. BUT, when JESUS came he fulfilled all of those unnecessary rules and laws and ordinances that they had back then. The ones that were NOT taken away at the cross were the Royal Laws/Moral Laws…They are the 10 commandments. We CAN keep them IF we have the HOLY SPIRIT within us to teach us and lead us into all truth. We must believe they are all relevant. JESUS “never” took them away. That is nowhere in the scriptures. They are not obsolete by any means. If Thou shall not worship any other GOD’s before me is still relevant then so is Thou shall not kill. What about thou shall not kill? Thou shall not covet, or the one about honoring thy father and they mother? They are all still laws that He expects us to keep. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy never went anywhere. Our laws have been changed by man and not by GOD. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
            He said, “I, the LORD GOD, do not change”. I agree that all of those 600+ laws were unnecessary and they have been taken out. We don’t need any sacrificial laws now, and we don’t need ceremonial laws now, but those BIG 10 that GOD gave to ALL people, not just the Jews are still standing. GOD is expecting us to honor them. If we are not suppose to have any laws then I would appreciate you showing me where that is in the Bible. I have researched, read, studied since 1999. I was re-baptized when I was 50 yrs. old. I have written 4 manuscripts that will hopefully this year be books and I have not found where the 10 commandments (all of them) were ever disregarded or taken away from GOD’s people.
            You seem to think that our works don’t count, but they do. It’s a matter of grace and works. JESUS said, “IF you love me, keep my commandments”.
            He said, “The harvest is plentiful, but the WORKERS are few”. He said that we were saved by His grace, but we will be judged by our works. To think otherwise would be to not know the scriptures and be in error. This is a discussion, not an argument. It is presented with the love of the LORD.

          • GibbyD

            It is contrived and only by man’s device and reasoning that you would make up and separate God’s laws into so called “Moral” vs. “Ceremonial” laws . Where did you get that ? It is not found in the Bible . If you read the lists of laws , they are listed together and are not separated into those two made up categories. When the Bible says Jesus ” fulfilled” the law , it is not saying he did away with them or ended them . He fulfilled them by living them perfectly and completely . This is something no other man has ever or will ever be able to do . His whole life , Jesus lived a perfect life and fulfilled the law . Not only the outward but also His inward thoughts and mind was always perfect . You cannot say that about yourself or anybody else . This perfect Holy righteousness that Jesus has and lived is something that you need to be saved . If you ever sinned once in your life , then you need this perfect righteousness in order to be saved from the wrath of God and everlasting death and hell . There is only one way to receive this .

            “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
            Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh {*by the blood of Christ*}. ”

            So you can go ahead and make much and boast about all your good deeds and years of study and how you keep the commandments . But they will not profit a bit in saving you from the wrath to come . Jesus said , “Ye MUST be born again ” ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23)KJB. Until you cease from your own works as a method of trying to make it to Heaven , you will be lost . You must acknowledge that you are lost and then repent toward God and place your total trust in the FINISHED WORK of The LORD Jesus Christ . If and when you eve do , then you will be imputed with the righteousness that saves , Christ’s righteousness. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:21)KJB

            “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.” ( Romans 1:16,17)KJB

            “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
            Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
            Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” ( Romans 3:21-31)KJB

            “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” ( Acts 10:43)KJB

            “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
            As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” ( Romans 9:30-33)KJB

            We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, “16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” ( Galatians 2:15-21)KJB

            “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” ( Galatians 3:11)KJB.

            “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
            For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” ( Galatians 3:23-26)KJB

            “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” ( Galatians 1:1-5)KJB

            “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
            For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” ( Matthew 5:17-20)KJB. The only way our righteousness can exceed that of the Pharisees is if we are imputed with Christ’s righteousness BY GRACE through FAITH.

            “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law” ( Romans 13:8-10)KJB.

            We obey and serve God now , not in order to become born again or stay a Christian, but rather because we are born again Christians . Works come after salvation and they are for rewards , blessings etc. We work and serve God because we are Christians and not in order to become Christians .

            “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
            Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” ( Galatians 5:1-6)KJB

            “For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.” ( Galatians 5:13-15)KJB

    • wandakate

      YES! I agree you are correct absolutely. We are NOT always saved. JESUS said that our names can be blotted out of His book of life. The angels are keeping track. JESUS knows the condition of our heart and our every work and deed. He knows our motivations and our intent on everything we do. We can not hide from GOD ever. People want to be always saved b/c of their sins. They are hoping to be able to sin and be saved forever all at the same time. SORRY, that is deceit. They are deceiving themselves and have believed a big lie.

  • Lisa

    Non story. I thought it was gonna say that he was in the band and was a Christian and now has decided he’s not a Christian anymore. But that’s not what he says at all and he didn’t stay with the band long because he wasn’t a Christian. Misleading headline.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    Dude, you missed the Book of Acts. And the epistles. And the Crucifixion. You thought God was your cosmic butler, 7-11 songs were your hymns, and spanking drums was your “purpose in life,” sniff, sniff, waaah, waaah. And, since you are interested in cosmology, perhaps you should give the Kalam Cosmological Argument a whirl. Or, you can continue to engage in the blind-faith religion of a-theism cuz it “feels good,” maaaan. Repeat after me, dude:

    The A-theist Creed: without semblance of reason or logic, I hereby believe
    1. That the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything.
    2. That life magically sprang forth from non-life when lightning hit some mud.
    3. That minds and morals evolved from molecules through monkeys.
    4. That cockroaches are my cousins.

    • Terry Roll

      Just because you don’t know how it all started doesn’t mean that it was Jesus/Yahweh. For the sake of argument, say I buy your theory that the universe is a creation. What makes you so sure it was Jesus/Yahweh vice some other deity or being?

      • wandakate

        Cause there is only “ONE” GOD of the universe. And there is only one heaven and one hell and you get to chose which one you wish to spend your eternity in. I would give that some serious thought if I were you…it’s not a big game, it’s real.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Outstanding question, Terry – thank you for asking that! You are a serious thinker, and apparently an evidentialist – good for you, my friend! OK, you are most correct: all we have thus far, using Kalam Cosmology plus Big Bang plus BGV Theorem, etc, is the First (Alpha) Uncaused Cause as Deity and the establishment of something that looks remarkably like Genesis 1:1. We do not yet know anything (independent of the Bible) about Yahweh and Jesus. But…

        We DO know that since space, time, and matter had a beginning at the Big Bang, this Cause MUST transcend space, time, and matter. In others words, the Cause must be spaceless, timeless, and non-material. We also know that this Cause MUST be immensely powerful, right, in order to create 100 billion galaxies out of (literally) nothing?!? We can also surmise that this Cause must be personal, in some sense, as It has chosen to create, and only personal agents can create, to our knowledge. Moreover, this Cause has chosen to create (or allow the creation of) persons (that’s us!) – indicating strongly that It is personal.

        This Cause is also self-existing, right? We know that either the universe (or multiverses, if they exist) are self-existing OR the Cause of same is self-existing. (Those are really the 2 options we have.) But, since the secular data points toward the universe having a beginning (and overwhelmingly so), then we must conclude that the First Uncaused Cause is self-existing. There is also a way to argue that this Cause is immutable or changeless. Let’s not get into that too much, but it’s worth thinking about on your own, OK?

        So, we have: spaceless, timeless, non-material, immensely powerful, personal free will, self-existing, changeless. That sounds a LOT like Yahweh, no? All we are really missing is omnispresent, omniscient, and holy. There are arguments there as well, particularly for the first two. I guess it could be Allah as well, but since Allah is supposedly unknowable, Allah is refuted. (Between Christians and Muslims, this may be easily settled: in the Bible, Yahweh is not the author of evil, but in the Quran, Allah IS the author of evil. I can provide references, if necessary.)

        So, at this point, we have Yahweh or someone awfully close to Him. Now, what about Jesus? There are a number of ways of approaching this, Terry, but I would go with the way that even most Biblical, historical, and archaeological scholars who are skeptics would agree, namely, a Minimal Facts Argument for the Resurrection. (Christianity stands or falls on the Resurrection – even Paul said so.) Here, I would link to this excellent summary of that type of argument: https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/can-naturalistic-theories-account-for-the-minimal-facts-about-jesus-resurrection/

        There are some other approaches to this too – I think William Lane Craig gets by on 4 facts or something, but you get the idea. The bottom line is this: I am an evidentialist. We need evidences to first point to the universe having a beginning. Here, your (secular) data points to my Deity. That establishes Genesis 1:1. Next, we need metaphysical evidences (arguments from logic, philosophy, etc) that point to this Cause being something pretty darn close to Yahweh. Finally, we need evidences (secular, historical, archaeological, and early Christian) that point to the Cause being Christ. (Technically, the Trinity, or as some say, the Tri-Unity.) Christianity stands or falls on the Resurrection, so it is empirically refutable – no blind faith necessary. All one has to do is produce the Body, and Christianity will disappear from the face of the earth forever.

        Hope this has been some help, Terry. God bless you for the brilliant question, and keep following the evidence where it leads you!

    • wandakate

      Clever, very clever. And snakes and scorpions and tarantulas and bumble bees, and wasps and all of the creeping things upon the earth are cousins. Satan is too and his host of demons. The false prophet will be when he comes as well as the antichrist. All are related yeah!!!
      How on earth can anyone in their right mind believe all of that NONSENSE?
      Many missing marbles could be the reason.

  • John Mark IB

    ah yes, once again, I’m sure some of my fellow brethren will definitely not like my opinions here but let’s start with his first sentence about his feelings, that’s one then he got into the human or mankind’s scientific discoveries the human psychology? really Freudian physcho babble and man’s words vs GOD’S Preserved Words KJV in English, how can he deny it? the very fact of life giving breathing cells procreation etc., too much really? unless it’s giving into lusts of the fleshly desires of the heart, as GOD’S Word says they shall be lovers of selves and pleasures more than lover’s of GOD it’s right there!! now for the issueI had, here’s my big dilemma I too used to be into guitar and wanted to be a rock star too from an early child age I was heavy into the black dark side of the heavy metal rock scene and ozzy, black Sabbath, led zeppelin, all of them and as the mantra song of the group ac/dc I was on the highway to hell! sadly I loved it too!! did the smoking weed, the drinking, almost died a few times, horrible lifestyle/ deathstyle! and then thought supposedly after saying a sinners’ prayer supposedly saved? that hey I can still rock for Jesus?? no need for changing here just change the words and stuff and can still have the drums with the sensuality beats and bass and all that yeah and people love it! it seels too!! yeah right from worldly rock n roll to so called Christian rock n roll, there was no real difference I soon found out, thanks be to GOD for leading me out of this madness and showing me His way….

    but the naming the name at least professing emergent contemplative so called church of Christians of today and the youth, don’t want to hear the great hymns of old, and harp music David played, that truly pleases GOD is Spirituals, Hymns, Psalms, sacred music not this contemporary worldly copy that is glorified garbage and sensuality we want our Christian cake and want to eat the worldly ccm as well!! sorry it’s time to get back to The Old Religion of Christianity and True Worship that honors The LORD too much contemporary stuff and as the world goes there goes the so called church!! my fellow believers will surely be against my criticising the so called music that most so called churches are into which leads to their downfall and sensuality not far removed!! yes I used to be heavy into the contemporary Christian music scene too but there comes a time hopefully when we realize it’s not about pleasing my ears or tickling my eats but pleasing GOD what does He want and what pleases His ears? here’s some awesome places to start at least a few hopefully you’ll enjoy them and great book by Pastor Kent Brandenburg can be read at

    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2008/05/order-sound-music-or-sounding-brass.html

    https://pillarandgroundpublishing.wordpress.com/

    http://www.oldchristianradio.com/

    http://www.abidingradio.org/listen/

    http://fbcradio.org/

    http://faithsaves.net/

    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36

    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.org

    http://www.discoverthebible.org

  • John Mark IB

    of course the rock n roll crowd will not like it but hey who do we really want to please here? so for those who are open and would enjoy it great GOD honoring lovely peaceful as well kind of like a prelude to what Heaven will be like peaceful paradise not rocking for Jesus haha screaming rapping for Jesus?? really we’ve got Christian yoga too ?? what?? just name it Christian and they’ll drool for it clamor all for it?? ow so sad,, sorry this may bring the huge debaters down on my head as majority of today’s folks don’t get it and stick with the worldly sensuality stuff that leads astray from truth!! but for those who haven’t heard them check out these few and enjoy!!
    http://www.oldchristianradio.com/

    http://www.abidingradio.org/listen/

    http://fbcradio.org/

    https://pillarandgroundpublishing.wordpress.com/

    http://faithsaves.net

    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36

    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/search?q=music

    http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/

  • John Chagnon

    Remember him in your prayers. We all take twists and turns in our life and God isn’t finished with him or us. We don’t know the very deepest parts of anyone in the same way as God does, so let’s err on the side of mercy and grace trusting that the God who loves all will do his holy work in all of our lives.

    • wandakate

      I believe that statement has merit, so kudos to you. However, GOD has another side. He said if you are not for me, you are against me. He said, I will spew you out of my mouth if you are lukewarm. He wanted us hot or cold. If we are on fire for Him then wonderful but if we are cold, we don’t care for him. We can’t have eternal life with Him if we never knew Him. He said, he came to see and to save those who are lost. We are all lost in the beginning. We are all sinners. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD. We must confess, repent and forsake our sins and that is what His message is. JESUS got angry several times. It’s not all love and mercy and grace, there is discipline there and there are consequences for disobedience as JESUS said, “If you love me, keep my commandments”. Our works matter. What we “do” with our lives matter. We are saved by His grace, yes, but we are judged by our works. Actions are louder than words.

  • barbbfly

    you christians are all mean bullys -what kind of Jesus with skin on was he around? maybe it falls on the christians around him who were about rules law without any love = pharisees !!! i know christians have been a bad witness to me – we should be an example and NOT put on bros and sis’s what we ourselves in their place could not bear. i think we as christians should get our act together!! mean what we say and say what we do and grow up to be MORE LIKE JESUS and stop blaming someone the 100th that left . you are quick to judge !!! BUT JESUS WOULD leave all of you and go seek the one that left – MY GUESS IS THAT EVERYONE AROUND Said the same thing and when they should’ve pursued him with God’s grace !!!

  • NWaff

    This guy SO doesn’t get Jesus – it’s eternally tragic.

  • jmichael39

    sounds like the sour grapes of a man who left the band because he wanted to focus solely on music and then wound up becoming a nothing while his old band took off…in music and in faith.

  • GibbyD

    IF you are born again , you are always born again . ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23; Philippians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. I hope he continues to seek , investigate and consider the claims of The LORD Jesus Christ and the Gospel . It is never too late unless you have taken your last breath in this life . We are told to , ” ..obey from the heart that form of doctrine( the Gospel ) delivered unto us …” ( Romans 6:17)KJB. “Repentance toward God ( HOLY LOVE) and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ( God incarnate).” ( Acts 20:21; John 4:24; I John 4:7,8; John 1:1-14)KJB.

  • Anton Viljoen

    As I carved out a life for myself away from the church, I began my own voyage of inquiry into what I believed. – >> satan love these guys , i , me ,pride , myself , what i stand for …. the big ME generation

  • Mia Adams

    The Bride of Christ is under Father God’s grace. We are sinners under His grace. The Church Age is an exodus from having to live under the Law that was put in place after the 40-year exodus from Egypt. The biblical account state that God’s grace was not sufficient for them, the slaves of pharaoh. Those 10 commandments have now increased to hundreds of laws practiced by the Bride of Father God, Israel. Yeshua came to fulfill the Law and put us, His born-again and spirit-filled believers under His finished work at Calvary and adopted spiritually as Father God’s children. I knew a man who was baptized a Christian in his younger years and is now an extreme Muslim. He is seeking his own salvation by his works all the while tossing eternal life by the wayside. He claims that believing in Yeshua makes him want to vomit. Sad creature!! It is unbelievable to me how anyone, who really knows that he knows the only beloved and begotten Son of God, can renounce being a Christian and fall from Father God’s precious plan of salvation and grace. I wonder how Peter felt when he denied Yeshua three times. This article is the prophesied end-times great apostasy.

  • sarah custer

    I think people realize that Christians in the spot light are not gods and are as human as anyone else. He has a right to profess atheism but it’s just really being a bad human to throw your former friends under the bus. I don’t know what we expect when the church has grown to look so much like the world with their “look at me, what I need, what suits me” attitude. People who are out for themselves should not be in ministry and trust me, that includes a lot of pastors and others in the world of Evangelicalism. I can appreciate some of his sentiment. There are people serving in third world countries who never receive any credit except God’s recognition–I’m sorry, I don’t see these people on the same level with mega church pastors who drive around in BMW’s. At least he is being honest about himself which is something many Christians find it impossible to do. It’s easy to label him as an apostate or a hero of the godless community but really he’s just a person being candid who has been through some of the same hurts as others who have kept the faith–he’s just dealing with it differently. It’s easy to quote Scripture and disregard others and less easy to identify, sympathize, and pray for people.

  • marybeth

    Slamming the other band mates is ridiculous… Christians aren’t perfect white fluffy angels. We have ALL Fallin short of the glory of God.

  • Tony Smith

    Christianity is a free will decision as is atheism. He never knew my Lord because if He did, he could never walk away from Him. Jesus Christ said, “My sheep hear my voice, and another (not even music) will they not follow.” Don’t feel sorry for him brothers and sisters. He can’t lose what he never had.

    • Terry Roll

      Don’t feel sorry for him? Under your narrative, you should feel sad for anyone who doesn’t know Christ. You sound like a Christian elitist. You are the real poser.

      • Tony Smith

        Terry what I was trying to convey was that he never was a believer. Some teach you can lose your salvation by denying God. If he had ever known Him, he couldn’t walk away. I will pray for him to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Thank you for correcting me. No, I am not an elitist. I am saved by God’s grace through the blood of Jesus Christ.

  • Rod

    The last 2 paragraphs of this article says it all. Christianity is all about Jesus, not about living by rules.

  • James Grimes

    Who cares? He is a future unhappy and disgruntled old man.

  • Jim Watson

    “I wanted my life to be measured by my music, not by my ability to resist temptation.”

    His life will be measured by how he allowed the Holy Spirit to work through him. His work will be measured by his music.

    It is unfortunate that so many people are fooled into believing that their work defines who they are. And, it is sad that so many people believe that Christianity is about rules.

  • Bryan Du Vall

    I pray to The lord Jesus Christ that he comes back to the foot of the cross and finds peace in the Lord. May his search for truth and joy be short in Jesus name.

  • Kyle

    So why is this being brought up if he formally denounced Christianity in 2007? Is it because he takes issue with the movie “God’s not dead”? If so, I’m right there with him, even as me being a believer. I still think this is a trashy article and shouldn’t even be brought up.

  • Wofinator

    You cannot renounce something you never had. He did not become something he already was. He was never a believer.

  • Ian Erickson

    commenter named Deborah. “One of the biggest lessons (and
    disappointments) for me since being saved is that not everyone who calls
    themselves ‘Christians’ really are.”

    And Deborah my dear, one of the biggest disappointments for me are comments like yours. Indpendent evangelical types are always so suspicious of other people’s testimony, but believe their own is self-evident

  • Bob Dove

    Well… all I can really think of to say regarding this is to pray that God’s love shines out of us who believe toward those who don’t believe. Because it’s not easy being a Christian sometimes and it’s not easy being an unbeliever at times. It’s just that in my own opinion, being a Christian gives me the oppoortrunity to believe in God’s love for me through what Christ did and who he is. Therefore, because of that, I have hope. If my hope can help someone else who does or doesn’t believe, then I feel that it’s God’s will to reach them, to let them know that in spite of them or even who I am, God truly loves them. I believe that’s my calling to God. But to make judgments whether someone was ever saved to begin with is way beyond my ability to know. How do I know? I’m not God. I don’t have to defend the gospel, I just have to share it. Some of these comments on here can seem judgmental, especially without hearing the tone of the person expresing it. So, you know, there’s people watching, reading these things. Some are posting and getting into arguments. Well…why? I heard a very famous preacher on tv slam a popular rock-star by name from the pulpit in a huge national rally because of something the rock star said that was truly anti-Jesus. Well, gee, I thought that was too bad, I shut the preacher off cause I don’t go for that sort of thing. Jesus rebuked the self-righteous religious crowd. I never read about Him tearing down the lost. He said alot of “woe to this or that city” statements, but he came to give his life for the lost…even the religious who crucified him. I guess the point is, I’ve been through enough criticism and judgment of my own doing, that now that I’m truly understanding the great love of God for me, I don’t want to judge another person, but love them with the help of God. There’ll be time enough for judgment later…and unfortunately it will be a very long, long time. So until then, I’ll let God be God and I’ll be who I am. A guy saved by His tremendous love and grace, totally and completely 100% underserving.

  • James Johnson

    He left a band that has enjoyed an enormous amount of recognition and success since his departure, and his marriage fell apart. Sounds like another “former Christian” bitter toward God because their life didn’t turn out the way they expected.

    To affirm this tantrum he takes an interest in “science” (i.e. he seeks out the most belligerent atheist scientists who spend just as much time mocking a God they dont believe in as they do reporting actual science).

    Here’s a logical chart that should cause every atheist to question their worldview: http://www.project315.net/logical-chart.html

  • John Mark IB

    what dost we seeketh after? worldly fasme and wealth recognition, yes when I was lost I too had the need and craved the possibility of being famous and loved by the crowds back in the 70’s it was like growing up with Peter Frampton and Fleetwood Mac etc., sorry my old self days from childhood so just as an example, but has anyone noticed that when you’re lost this world seems like hell on earth and that’s what we actually call and believe it to be?? why because we’re truly empty unfilled lost souls without Christ, but here’s the bottom line to those who would even doubt and want to bring up GOD’S Promises of absolute once saved always saved, number one it’s His The LORD GOD’S Salvation not mine so I can’t lose it, see this (John chapter 10 about Jesus hands and Father’s hands and none can pluck them out of either for instance) for absolute confirmation, and you tell me?? ok then if it’s “my” salvation then of course it’s a license to lose it by meaning oh ok then I can just live any old way and so therefore excuses to cheapen grace then of course never were saved to begin with really….cheap grace is worldly salvation and lost foolish man’s false assurance at best, which is not grace at all, but of course we know that only grace worth having is the only one He gives which is the saving grace of Ephesians 2:8, so yes it’s once saved He saves not for a little while then says oops you blew it now you’re lost?? no He keeps me In His Hands and none can pluck me out thanks be to GOD not even me my wicked undeserving self!! thank you Jesus !! salvation is not based upon my saving myself!! not of works lest any man should boast!!! just trying to be Scriptural is all and yes let’s pray for him to get born again as the other level headed less judgmental than myself at times here say!! let’s be Christian and show love tempered with grace, and hold To His Words!! http://fatihsaves.net
    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36
    http://kentbrandenburg.vlogspot.com

  • Chet

    If indeed really an atheist, in part due to the imposition of strict rules of one’s religion, how would one in-turn withstand the regimen of Hell? Seven days a week, 24 hours a day of darkness, endless screams of the damned in this madhouse of humanity. Then, there’s the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, guilty conscience, flames and taunts of demons. And all this is ongoing throughout eternity. Nevertheless, the Lord Jesus Christ is still the answer and he is saving the souls of all who will but repent and come unto him for mercy and forgiveness of all one’s SINS. And, if that wasn’t blessing enough, he also forgets those same Sins, trannsforms one’s life, breaks the bondages of Sin, blesses the believer according to one’s needs and at death, Christ provides a home in Heaven for all eternity. Now, you just can’t beat the opportunity God Almighty provides exclusively via Christ and his Cross at Calvary… Praise the Lord…

  • Teresa Nyamora

    even Judas betrayed Jesus Christ yet he had been a disciple for sometime. it is his lose. what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul?

  • http://rcsprouljr.com/ RC Sproul Jr.

    “I wanted my life to be measured by my music, not by my ability to resist temptation.” = “I wanted to be judged by my talent, not by my character.”

    • wandakate

      Unfortunately he wanted the praises of men and not the praises of GOD. He was into the world and of the world and all it has to offer. JESUS said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man will come to the FATHER but by me. We must accept JESUS first and that will get us to the throne of GOD. We are to be in this world, but not “of” this world. The world is quickly passing away and JESUS will be here and there will still be many who are not saved and don’t know Him. They will perish. Must they not be reached? The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

    • GibbyD

      We just need to keep him in prayer. This is off topic but since I see your name , I wanted to ask what you think of Ephesians 1:4. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” I looked up the word “before” in this verse and in almost every case in The New Testament it is the word meaning location and is not in reference to time sequence . God even right now , is still before the foundation of the world and from there and everywhere has chosen to save whosoever will ” repent toward God and place their faith and trust toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21). It seems to me that what is chosen before time are the results of salvation and not the actual identity of those who will believe and be saved . God knows who they will be but I do not believe He programs before we are born who will be and who will not be . Otherwise He would be commanding people to believe something that He Himself has programmed them not to be able to do . men are indeed dead in trespasses and sin but there is one thing that can awaken those dead men and that is The Power of God , The Gospel . ( Romans 1:16)KJB. I do not know why some believe and some don’t . I just will have to leave that a mystery . The problem arises , I believe, when we try to create a doctrine and dogma to explains that for which is beyond man’s finite understanding to comprehend . ( I Corinthians 8:2)KJB

  • Andrew Thomas Harrelson

    What he is saying is that he is not a good enough at music to make a mark as a Christian artist; as in I am a failure at Christian Music because I am too much of a wimp to stand up Satan.

  • Martin Bellone

    Reading some of the comments here I understand his point. If you showed me the love you are showing him then I would snub my nose at you also. Christians get the hypocrite label because of the exact things you people are saying. What right do you have to say he was never saved? I remember a verse in the Bible that indicates that if you were trained properly when young then when you are old you will not depart from it! If God started a work in him then He (God) will be faithful to finish the work! That is the word and if it isn’t true then like George said there maybe some issues with the faith.

  • Zachary Burkhardt

    Just because the group wasn’t “as holy as they profess” when Perdikis was in the band doesn’t mean are a bunch of faking non-beleivers. His confession has no effect on the group today because all the members were not part of the original group. I feel like the intention of this article was to insult Christians and cause others to think we’re a bunch of lying hypocrites like Perdikis

  • Getreal

    It is very hard to believe someone who lived an absolute for so many years–his whole life has been one massive lie. But I am sure the hatetheists will welcome him open arms and a copy of Dawkins’ The God Delusion.

  • Gary Gayisok Whiteman

    I can appreciate where he’s coming from to some extent. I left the church for 35 years after being ambushed, cursed, and brutally kicked and beaten by a group of young men for the “sin” of studying for an Organic Chem mid-term with a person of another race. When they brought their Bibles to the disciplinary hearing and quoted verses that they claimed justified their actions, I concluded that, “If that’s a Christian, I’m not a Christian and I don’t ever want to be a Christian.” God didn’t give up on me – he called me back home 10 years ago.

  • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

    The responses of most Christians I see concerning this article is the MAJOR reason religion will never be the path to world peace. Most of these opinions are little more than raw hatred, or at least a tuning of the back.

    Most religions, as well as the ancient sages, spoke of benevolent reciprocity: The Golden Rule (empathy).

    Christianity puts it like this: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31.

    Even many, if not most humanists/atheists advocate something similar: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It is both a religious tenet and a humanist ethical philosophy.

    Yet, it is only organized religion that then builds upon that rule walls of heavy, exclusive dogma that crush the Golden Rule beneath.

    This is why I blog on posts such as this one. I advocate that all individuals should leave their divisive dogma behind and adopt only that single tenet which is the same as universal empathy. It is the only tenet that can tear down the walls that divide us and open the path to peace.

  • MisUnderstoodagain

    In regards to the article It is entertainment folks they play it you buy it nothing more nothing less. If he was a tree worshiper would it have made a difference? You still sang along with it despite where his heart was.

    Religion is man made not God made. Our whole perception of what Christianity is all about is wrong. It is interesting that they say Christianity is a personal relationship with Christ. If it is personal then why are they telling you how that relationship should be? I would imagine that your relationship with God is between you and him and is not really anybody’s business. If David who killed Goliath and who saw so many other miracles with his own eyes still sinned, what chance do we have of ever living up to what religion says we have to live up to? If the wisest man in history gave into temptation then we are hopeless. I don’t need the church to point this out, I already know it. The church is the problem and hopefully someday it will disappear into the pharisees fairly and never come back,

  • http://www.equip.org/ w w w . e q u i p . o r g

    most of the original members of newsboys left the band,one bass player died, the originl drummer,peter furler moved to singer than left the band and went sole

  • Tommy Ryan

    I read blah-blah-blah *insert self-loathing* Blah-blah-blah from that guy…why follow the law when you know Jesus is He who frees us from “the law” to follow without regret? Boy, oh boy is he in for a rude awakening…cosmology? OK…I capitulate to the Big Bang Theory (more or less), but Who lit the fuse/threw the switch? Burdensome religion? That’s where he embraced rules and religion instead of FAITH in a loving God…believe me…I wrestled with these situations, and decided to let go, and let GOD…makes it easier to focus on the rich life Jesus promised those who believe in Him. I’ll never have hit songs (most likely) as he wrote, and not have the money, but I thank God I am not burdened with self-loathing…he’d make a better Buddhist than an atheist…

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

    “I always felt uncomfortable with the strict rules imposed by Christianity,” That says it all.
    The thing is though, when you “do your own thing” you often find yourself enslaved to sin.
    I know because I came out of “doing my own thing” years ago. Christ said “my yoke is easy, my burden is light” and that is so true! As a Christian I’m able to be myself rather than what the world tells me I am. Christ isn’t about strict rules (unless you think “thou shalt not murder” is strict) it’s about loving God and doing your best for Him and enjoying His love for you. That’s it. How hard is that?

  • Evangelina Vigilantee

    “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” John 6; 37
    Unconditional and sacrificial love is available to you in Jesus. Come to Jesus and into the embrace of His open arms. He will forgive you and take you in and you will have true life. I don’t care who you are, or what you’ve done. Just go to Jesus and receive Him into your heart. Or rededicate your heart to Him. Salvation, reconciliation, forgiveness of sin, eternal life, and more are yours as a free gift by God’s grace because Jesus died for your sins. Repent today if you hear His voice. Jesus loves you!