Hundreds of ‘Churches’ to Celebrate ‘Evolution Sunday’ as Others Celebrate ‘Creation Sunday’

Charles DarwinNearly 500 “churches” in the United States will commemorate Charles Darwin’s birthday this week with “Evolution Sunday,” but many other congregations plan to recognize the biblical Creator and celebrate “Creation Sunday” instead.

February 12, Darwin’s birthday, is commemorated each year by atheists as International Darwin Day. However, many “churches” also plan to celebrate the birth of the notorious naturalist by following the advice of atheist Dr. Michael Zimmerman and hosting “Evolution Sunday” or “Evolution Weekend” events.

“Evolution Weekend is an opportunity for serious discussion and reflection on the relationship between religion and science,” Zimmerman’s website says. “An ongoing goal has been to elevate the quality of the discussion on this critical topic, and to show that religion and science are not adversaries.”

Since 2006, thousands of congregations that believe the Bible and evolution are compatible have observed Evolution Sunday and similar events. So far, nearly 500 congregations have pledged to recognize the event this year, with California, Pennsylvania, New York, and Ohio being the states with the most participating “churches.”

To counter the Evolution Sunday apostasy, many churches are planning to instead observe “Creation Sunday” as an affirmation of their beliefs in biblical creation. Tony Breeden, founder and organizer of Creation Sunday, told Christian News Network that biblical creation beliefs are important, because “evolution undermines the authority of God’s Word and the foundational basis of the gospel.”

“If I can’t trust the plain meaning of the Bible in Genesis because of the all-natural presuppositions of science, why should I trust it when it speaks of a Virgin birth, water turning into wine, the resurrection of Christ, or any other supernatural claim in the Bible?” Breeden asked. “It’s a slippery slope and it undermines the foundational basis of the Gospel itself.”

Breeden explained that Evolution Sunday is based upon the unbiblical concept of non-overlapping magisteria—also known as NOMA. According to NOMA, science and religion are incompatible with each other, because science allegedly deals with facts and theories while religion deals with morality and meaning.

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“The problem with this concept is that it commits the fact-value distinction,” Breeden said. “Christianity makes claims (values) that are rooted in historical fact.”

Contrary to NOMA’s claims, evolution and Christianity are in fact antithetical, said Breeden.

Tony Breeden
Breeden

“Jesus Himself refuted the false premise behind NOMA when he said to Nicodemus: ‘If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?’” Breeden opined. “Since many of Christianity’s doctrines rest on historical claims of fact, in practice, NOMA becomes Scriptura sub scientia [Scripture below science], where the authority of the Bible is steadily surrendered to the claims of science chained to pure naturalism—which does not allow for a supernatural Creator, the resurrection of Christ, or divine revelation in the first place!”

Breeden told Christian News Network that the inspiration for Creation Sunday is linked to his own journey of faith, because he at one point walked away from Christianity when he realized evolution and the Bible were at odds. However, the Holy Spirit drew him back to the faith when he discovered the shortcomings of evolution.

“As the Holy Spirit began to guide me into all truth, as the Scriptures promise, I began to realize that millions of years of molecules-to-man evolution actually undermines the faith,” he stated.

Breeden first created CreationLetter.com—a website that allows Christians to pledge support for the literal interpretation of the biblical creation account. Then, he organized Creation Sunday so that churches could publicly proclaim the truth of Genesis.

“Creation Sunday was written into the very fabric of the Creation Letter, where we urged ‘churches to send a clear message of the enduring authority of God’s Word by celebrating a Creation Sunday instead of the Clergy Letter Project’s proposed Evolution Sunday,’” Breeden said. “The first Creation Sunday was held in 2009.”

As evolutionists and “churches” gather to celebrate Darwin this week, critics of evolution point to Robert FitzRoy, who was the captain of the infamous HMS Beagle. FitzRoy ultimately condemned Darwin’s evolutionary writings and upheld the teachings of Scripture.

“When you compare the spiritual journeys of FitzRoy and Darwin, they couldn’t be more different,” Breeden commented. “Thanks to Lyell’s book, Darwin saw uniformitarian geology everywhere he looked; in FitzRoy’s later journeys, he began to see the hallmarks of the Deluge in the geology he surveyed. He later denounced Darwin’s theory publicly, on numerous occasions, and begged people to believe God rather than man.”

“Even in Darwin’s day, there were ministers who said that there was no contradiction between evolution and Genesis, [and] the fruit of that position is telling, for today Europe is a spiritual wasteland where Christianity is concerned,” he continued. “This is precisely why we urge churches in the United States and abroad to make a stand for the ultimate authority of the Bible and the historical veracity of Genesis by celebrating a Creation Sunday rather than an Evolution Sunday.”

Photo: creationsunday.wordpress.com


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  • Gary

    The Bible says God created the universe, and living things, in six days. That means that the Bible cannot be reconciled with evolution. Any so-called “Christian” churches that are promoting evolution have denied the faith and are apostate. They should stop calling themselves Christians because they are not Christians.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      How do you reconcile that there is evidence of civilizations that were present on Earth greater than 6,000 years ago?

      • Gary

        I question that evidence.

        • Spoob

          So you think the museums where we see millions of years old dinosaur bones are lying to us?

          • Bill

            How do you explain pictures and carvings of dinosaurs on rocks and other items? https://www.facebook.com/icr.org/photos/a.10150268208564451.345328.43552419450/10153116054444451/?type=1&theater

          • Spoob

            That’s a rhinoceros.

          • Bill

            Well then you just acknowledged the existence of unicorns. Thanks!

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            I’ve never seen a rhino that looked like a stegosaurus before.

          • Spoob

            The stegosaurus? You mean the same stegosaurus that lived 150 million years ago?

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            How do you know if they’ve lived approx 150 million years ago? Because the last time I looked at a fossil, it didn’t have a date stamped on it.

          • Spoob

            Based on your answer, you’re right, there is no point in discussing it. You have closed your ears off from facts and science to such a point that you’re going to believe what you want to. Fair enough. Good luck in life.

          • lance Geologist

            “In fact, scientists have discovered dinosaur bones with marrow and other
            soft tissues un-fossilized- something that cannot occur if the object
            is supposedly millions of years old.” NO that is incorrect. Don’t get your “facts” from disingenuous creationist sites. Read the actual paper and you will find that you are dead wrong!

          • Sandy Riley

            News to me. Where did you see this? I mean maybe wooly mamoths but they are not dynos.

          • jubilee

            WE weren’t around 50 million years ago…LOL

          • jubilee

            ITS AN ODD ANIMAL… With the head of a pig, and those things on the back but NOT A RHINO

          • Sandy Riley

            I have seen cave paintings that look like space aliens too.
            What does that mean? nothing.

      • Crono478

        This is because people who came up with this “fact” did not trust in God’s words on what He has to say about the origins.

        If the evidence of “civilization” is just based on dating methods used on fossil records, then I have a bad news for you. Many of dating methods are not even accurate or misapplied. What’s next is, in order to confirm that there were civilizations more than 6,000 years ago, there must be witnesses that can confirm that. There were no witnesses back then. We cannot come up with what we “think” has happened in past.

        What I am saying is, we cannot prove what happened in the past. All we can do is to rely on what people wrote down what they actually witnessed. Our God is Our Perfect Witness and He has told us what exactly happened in the beginning of His Creation. This is why we can exactly trust in His Words.

        • lance Geologist

          one does not have to have lived millions of years ago to see rocks in outcrops.As far as dating methods, I am willing to concede a potential error of one million years. So what, who cares if a rock is 250 million years old or 249 million years old.
          The fact remains that rocks and artifacts can be dated,although different methods are used. Carbon dating has been compared to ice and tree rings.Thinking and using your ability to see is a God given gift, don’t throw this gift away in blind obedience to a book that is a guide to finding God, NOT a geology or history book

          • Crono478

            Actually, it is people that believes in these “facts” that are closed to the Truth.

            Bible encourages us to examine every evidence, facts and words to see if it is true (Acts 17:11). What is more is, God cannot lie and what he says about 6 days of creation is true. His words will not be returned void. In other words, we can completely trust in His words.

            You say you are willing to accept potential error of one million year which actually means you don’t exactly know what happen in past. You can only guess based on dating methods. Dating methods have their known flaws.

            https://answersingenesis.org/geology/radiometric-dating/dating-techniques/

            Even ice rings are proven inaccurate as measurement to determine how many years has passed since then.

            https://answersingenesis.org/answers/books/frozen-in-time/do-ice-cores-show-many-tens-of-thousands-of-years/

          • lance Geologist

            try a real science site and not the disingenuous answers in genesis site.I don’t have the time to go into the millions of pages of Geology and I suspect I would be wasting my time with you. For those that want to see and know, pick up a geology text book and learn about our Earth.

          • Crono478

            You are mocking them. Did you know that AiG actually have many scientists that have PhD who believes in God’s words. You are not really giving them a chance. I was like you in past. I mocked them and believed in “real science” in past.

          • lance Geologist

            Wrong , I have read their stuff and I stand by my reply above. Where is their repeatable observation, reviewed by other scientists? I see nothing wrong about scientists believing in God. One of my best friends said to me on his death bed” I know there is a G_d because I have friends” He believed in G_d and was a very good geologist. Knowing about the complex geology and history of this earth does not have to be inconsistent with belief in God.

          • Crono478

            Knowing the complex geology and history of this earth is not consistent with belief in God. This is because He created the world himself.

            Why did he believe in God because he had friends?

          • lance Geologist

            nice question,no one else has asked. The answer is because there is love.

          • Bill
          • Guest
          • Bill
          • dark477

            PhD’s in what and from what universities?

          • Crono478

            Jason Lisle has Ph.D from University of Colorado. His focus is on
            astromony.

            John Marcus has Ph.D.
            in biological chemistry from the University of Michigan

            Terry Mortenson has
            Ph.D in History of Geology from Coventry University in England.

            Ariel Roth has Ph.D
            in biology from University of Michigan. Even her research has been supported by
            U.S. Government agencies.

            Andrew Snelling has
            PhD in Geology at University of Syndey in Australia.

            John Kramer has Ph.D
            in biochemistry from University of Minnesota and completed three years of
            post-doctoral studies as a Hormel fellow at the Hormel Institute and as an NRC
            fellow at the University of Ottawa.

            E. Theo Agard has
            Ph.D in physics from Unversity of Toronto and his focus is on medical physics.

            They are few of many
            people who wrote articles for AiG. These Ph.D degrees are not very easy to get.
            At the same time, they believe that God created everything too.

            There is a list of modern
            scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation at this link: https://answersingenesis.org/creation-scientists/

          • dark477

            So none of then actually studied evolution? are you aware of the appeal to authority fallacy?

          • Crono478

            Yes, they did because many university teaches evolution in classes. We are taught about evolution in school too. Yet, it is due to their faith that they know that it’s a lie! The reason why I gave the answer on who actually earned Ph.D. from various university is because you attended to discredit them simply because they work for Answer in Genesis.

            There was an interview by Ariel Roth a while ago to show that he did know evolution but knew that it cannot be true. The link is: http://creation.com/ariel-roth-interview-flat-gaps

          • dark477

            the school version of evolution is a bare bones version and I discredit them because they’re speaking about a subject they’re know nothing about.

          • Crono478

            No, you are discrediting them simply because they trust in the word of God. What is more, you know that if you believe in God, it means you know that you are a sinner, which is something you refuse to do.

          • supermike

            Understanding where we came from has bent he biggest question humans have had. We have studied it more than anything. Science was developed to facilitate the study. We know more about this than anything, and we know it is true. Why do you have a tailbone? Why is our DNA almost identical to primates? Why do we not need tonsils? Why are the animals in the oceans so different, but the animals on land seem so similar? Two eyes, one nose, lungs, etc. Evolution. It’s not as if there is any other explanation of how we got here among scientists. They all agree because there is no other explanation.

          • barbbfly

            cool ! i’m going to print this list out for my 26 yr old who doesn’t believe in Jesus anymore but for him science explains everything away -THX

          • jubilee

            its usually the BOYS who get confused with this LIE
            we’ll be PRAYING

            my daughter went to a public school
            in 6th grade, she had a teacher who taught EARTH SCIENCE and MATH.. who completely helped her in school
            she taught the kids how to use ‘flash cards’ as well
            she learned what an isobar was, different types of clouds, rocks, acid, alkaline, etc…

            THERE IS A LOT MORE TO SCIENCE THAN EVOLUTION THEORY in fact, its a religion…

          • barbbfly

            thank you so much for prayers for my Ian . he grew up with Jesus and really loved him / he’s has told me a few weeks ago he believed in him . ???
            God bless you

          • barbbfly

            cool ! i’m going to print this list out for my 26 yr old who doesn’t believe in Jesus anymore but for him science explains everything away -THX

          • supermike

            That’s funny how you people always say scientists don’t know what they’re talking about, and in the next breath say some scientists believe in God.

          • Tara

            Your condescension, while it obviously must do something for you, does nothing whatsoever to win people to your ‘side’, as it were. I believe in God and His Word. Only ‘text’ Book I, and the millions of other believers there are, follow. Being a jerk doesn’t help your case as it wouldn’t if I were trying to help lead someone to Christ. That’s the thing. Believers try to share the gift God freely gives us; people like you aren’t trying to share anything. You’re just….mean.

          • lance Geologist

            Sorry if you thought I was mean, did not try to be. Sincere apology.
            As far as side, I only say open your eyes to the world. Nothing in the study of geology says there is or is not a God.Using the Bible as the sole reference is to be inconsistent with the demand for a “witness”. Were you there when it was written? No you were not. Who was ? Did Adam write an account? Who wrote the book of Genesis? The events of the Jewish Torah (Bible) was not written at the time of the events described. The Christian Bible was also written much later.It was often interpreted and fought over. Check out ” When Jesus Became Gog” Richard Rubenstein or ” Jesus Wars” by Phillip Jenkins. You will learn about early Christianity and man.

          • lance Geologist

            ” When Jesus Became God” poor proofreading!

          • Sandy Riley

            hmmmmm

          • jubilee

            don’t forget
            6 COMPLETE DAYS are 144 HOURS
            and this is what made me believe in the 6 day creation
            the 144 comes from 144,000
            and on the military CLOCK 0:00 is a new day
            besides in the book of Peter, it talks about ‘science so-called” in the KJV

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Allen/1230115147 Daniel Allen

            carbon dating is only for organic materials

          • lance Geologist

            artifacts, yes must have Carbon in it!

        • Fundisi

          Was the earth and the universe created with the appearance of a much greater age than it is in reality? God created Adam and on day one, Adam is not described as being an infant, a toddler or a baby, but someone of an advanced age, perhaps a teenager, but already with a fully developed language and communication skills, but that was immediate, he able to live and act on his own, he was in the first minute for all intent and purposes of much greater age and development. When we have evidence from God of Him creating a man with the appearance and all the functions of greater age than his chronological age would dictate, why is it so hard to understand that God would make a universe and a world the same way, ready for all the living organisms He placed there, including Adam, able to provide all that was necessary to support that life?

          We must consider that evolution cannot be empirically proven in the laboratory, they cannot start with absolutely nothing and produce anything. They cannot even explain, other than by guessing, how everything in the universe came from nothing, as something cannot come from nothing. They cannot explain how cosmic accidents and random mutations over time can produce the incredibly complex design we see all around us, from the sub-atomic level to the universe, could exist unless there was a preexisting designer greater than the things designed. What we have are forced interpretations of the data, based on their underlying natural, god denying explanation for all life and ever morphing theories.

        • dark477

          And all the other creation myths? they’re accounts of the beginning too.

      • Bill

        No where in the Bible does it say the earth is 6000 years old.

        • bowie1

          Usually it is estimated by the 42 generations from Adam to Jesus Christ. If the earth is much older then each generation would have to be millions of years long to accomodate an old earth.

          • Bill

            It was estimated by a catholic priest. It has no Biblical foundation tho……….

          • bowie1

            Did that catholic priest also write the book of Matthew, which says it was 14 + 14 + 14 generations from Adam to Jesus through Joseph (step)father of Jesus which equals 42 generations?

          • Bill

            Interesting note. Matthew says 42, but if you count the generations yourself, there is only 41. So, its not as simple as you say…. Anyway, Christians should not be proclaiming something as fact, when we don’t know. The Bible does not tell us 6000 years.

          • http://www.youtube.com/user/EyrtheFyre Regina Forbes

            The Bible may not say verbatim that the earth is appx 6,000 years old, however it also did not say that the earth is millions of years old either. However…if you follow the clues- God says exactly that there was evening then there was morning- the (first, second, third etc) day, thus telling us each day of creation was exactly a 24 hour period. Moreover, in the genealogies it is listed how many years each person lived and at what age each descendant was born all up until the time of Joseph (Great-Grandson of Abraham). This gives us a timeline we can reasonably follow. Thus, the idea that the earth is approx 6,000 years is not a made up number. It is based on through academic research.

          • Bill

            It is based on a guess. By a priest. The Bible has gaps in its account of history. It is not widely accepted by most churches. Only the loudest churches proclaim the 6000 year old idea…

          • jubilee

            speaking of JOSEPH..
            both of them in old AND new testaments had fathers named JACOB
            I found out that numeric sequences militate against evolution as well

          • Bill

            Estimated by a catholic priest….it is not Biblical.

          • bowie1

            The Bible itself uses that figure in 14 + 14 + 14 stages which equals 42 generations. http://www.learnthebible.org/42-generations.html

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          As a rule, “Creationists” believe that the earth has to be between 6 – 10 thousand years old.

          • barbbfly

            ISN’T THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THE DUST ON THE MOON ? oops caps the dust wasn’t deep enough for creation to be that old ?

          • Bill

            No they don’t. Some do yes. Mostly the loudest. But the majority of churches do not teach that. I know, I go every Sunday…

        • Carlos Perla

          You can sum up the ages of the different characters and events and you arrive into the 6000 year mark

          • Bill

            Right, BUT, the Bible doesn’t account for all of the time. There are gaps…..that 6000 year old thing is NOT in the Bible.

          • Carlos Perla

            It`s crystal clear, just do your homework reading, it`s just mathematics. But if you trust more Discovery Channel than the Bible this is not my problem. The Bible is light to discern clearly everything, but you must not use other light to interpret our world, because if you do you`ll be deceived.

          • Bill

            Good advice Carlos, maybe should take your own advice…..just sayin”.

      • bowie1

        That depends if you go by a calendrical/historical system as opposed to estimating the age of things past. Generally, according to a calendarical/historical system one cannot go much past 4000 years ago.

      • Bruce Morrow

        Such as…….???

      • Carlos Perla

        There’re no evidence of that. This is only propaganda and bad science.

    • James Grimes

      For most of these people, “Christian” is a convenient label to use so they don’t look like losers to their neighbors. We know that Christians, in reality, are those who understand and follow what God teaches in His Word. The Bible uses the word “depraved” to describe those who have heard the truth, but choose to ignore it.
      Scripture teachers how God will deal with these apostates. They have made a choice and must bear the consequences. We know what the rewards will be for those of us who love God and choose to believe Him. We believe Him because we love Him.

      • Sandy Riley

        This is why the christian church in america will slowly die off.
        To stupid to breath.

        • James Grimes

          Too? Breathe? Is this what you meant? Am I suppose to be interested in your opinion? It is meaningless.

      • ter ber

        Amen! We are watching the great ‘falling away’ in our lifetime.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0u3-2CGOMQ

    • Hate-Not

      Bible is written in the human context and language, in the light of the world perceivable to our naked eyes and understanding. To God 1 day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day, says the Bible. Six days need not to be taken as days involving 24 hours as we see it. But on the other hand. There are 1000s of things in the world even today we accept not through evidence but from experience. Aspects of God we understand from his word, through Jesus Christ. If we insist God should be tangible like Gandhi or Luther…..if God is small enough to be understood, he is not big enough to be worshiped.

      • Bill

        Thank you, that was well said.

    • Tyler Mitchell

      It should be noted that Peter said one day to God is like thousands to us…so I always go back to who’s time clock we going by in Genesis …ours or Gods?Why I’m not dogmatic about the 6 day thing…that said it was either one or the other…our time or Gods time.

      That point being made…any Christian supporting evolution …from apes to man is calling God a liar.

      • barbbfly

        and each after it’s own kind will multiply

    • barbbfly

      I don’t think that is an essential of being born again though. many many people who call themselves christians are not , ya?

    • Bruce Morrow

      Agreed 200%!

    • M Diaz

      “The Bible says God created the universe”
      so what?
      the spiderman series says spiderman lives in New York, what is your point?

  • Fundisi

    Evolution and Creationism are mutually exclusive. Any church celebrating Darwin and Evolution have abandoned the faith.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      Okay, I’ll quit using everything invented by religion and you quit using everything invented by science.

      • supermike

        Invented by religion?? Crazy. Name one thing. You can’t.

  • MattFCharlestonSC

    I love the use of “quotation marks”.

    • Spoob

      That’s my entertainment on this site, all the disapproving quotes in just about every story. Gay “marriage.” The Roman Catholic “Pope”. Etc.

  • Don Smith

    As soon as you being quoting the bible, you’ve already tossed away all reason and sanity. We’re here due to forces of cosmology, evolution and science. Please put your fables, mysticism and talking snakes in proper perspective.

    • Gary

      Prove it. You are an ignoramous.

    • James Grimes

      On a Christian site, the only valid viewpoint are from Christians. Yours, and the opinions of other depraved people, are meaningless.

      • MattFCharlestonSC

        Public forum, James. If you want to trash talk a group of people without them intruding on the conversation, then you should do it in church or in a private forum. We have just as much right to be here as any of you.

        • James Grimes

          MattFCharlestonSC
          “Public forum, Gary. If you want to trash talk a group of people without them intruding on the conversation, then you should do it in church or in a private forum. We have just as much right to be here as any of you.”
          I’m not Gary.

      • Spoob

        Is it even possible for you to speak to someone else without calling them names and ingratiating yourself?

    • Oboehner

      Evolutionism is a religion. Please put your fables, fraud (Piltdown etc.), and exploding dots in proper perspective.

      • Spoob

        Sorry, Charlie. Evolution is a fact. The nice thing about science is that it’s right whether you agree with it or not.

        • Gary

          If evolution is true, why did Jesus say God created everything in six days?

          • Spoob

            Metaphor.

          • Gary

            Jesus treated it as actual history. So did every other Biblical writer and personality who talks about it. Nobody in the Bible thought of Genesis as a metaphor.

          • pax2u

            Jesus treated it as actual history.

            uke 22

            18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.…..

            Nobody in the Bible thought of it as a metaphor.

        • Oboehner

          Just because popey said so doesn’t make it true. Since the basis of evolutionism is speciation, or the changing from say a fish to a lizard or a cow to a whale, why don’t you serve up some of that scientific fact and prove it – because that is the nice thing about REAL science, if it is fact as you claim, you should be able to demonstrate it, observe it, and repeat it.

          • Spoob

            And that would have WHAT effect on you, O’Boner? You see people worshiping Mary and the Pope where there is no one worshiping Mary and the Pope. So when I serve up scientific fact on evolution – which I’ve done in the past for you, ten separate links as I recall – and you see no evidence, haven’t you kind of proven yourself to be impervious to fact?

          • Oboehner

            I don’t have to be impervious to fact, you never served any, marian.

          • Spoob

            I don’t believe you possess the ability to discern fact, Bertha.

          • Oboehner

            I know it when I see it, you are just void of any.

          • Spoob

            Yes, just like when you know when you see imaginary Mary-worship. Your track record for BS is already off the charts.

          • Oboehner

            I see people kissing a graven mary image in a shrine to her, what else would that be but worship? A social call? Give me a break.

          • Spoob

            And the fact that 99.9% of Catholics don’t do that means nothing to you, huh? Shall we assume all fundamentalists wave snakes around and babble in “tongues”?

          • Oboehner

            Waving snakes is not official church doctrine where I go, however the shrines are endorsed by the RCC as well as the fact that I have seen the pope doing the idol smooch.

          • Spoob

            Well, you could do yourself a favour and actually learn what idolatry means.

          • Oboehner

            Well, you could do yourself a favour and actually learn what idolatry means, and not just the twisted marian version – which is used in an attempt to excuse themselves.

            Question: “What is the definition of idolatry?”

            Answer: The definition of idolatry, according to Webster, is “the worship of idols or excessive devotion to, or reverence for some person or thing.” An idol is anything that replaces the one, true God. The most prevalent form of idolatry in Bible times was the worship of images that were thought to embody the various deities or the queen of heaven.

          • Spoob

            No, you’re still regurgitating your fundie pastor’s crapola rather than looking at facts.

            I am using the dictionary’s definition, nothing to do with Mary or marians. Not that I know of any.

            If someone sees a stone idol and worships it and thinks it’s a God then that is idolatry, absolutely, no question about it.

            If a Catholic bows before a statue of Mary they are showing honor to the mother of Jesus Christ. Since the statue represents Mary, it puts them in mind of Mary. It doesn’t mean they think that statue has turned into Mary, which is the charge you are making, which has no basis in fact and is so ridiculous that even a small child can figure it out.

            Got any photographs of family members in your house? By your logic that would be idolatry.

            You’re in over your head, you should really just admit it.

          • Oboehner

            Do you actually think that anyone has actually worshiped stone? They worship what they think the graven image represents – you know like marians with their little statues.
            A photograph is not a graven image, I do not kiss the photographs, I do not give gifts to the photographs, I do not make shrines to the photographs, I do not pray to the photographs – like marians do to their idols.
            You’re in over your head, you should really just admit it.

          • Spoob

            No, I don’t think anyone has actually worshiped stone. Which means that this is not idolatry. Why would God care as long as the object itself wasn’t being worshiped? But you’ve taken that idea and let your mind run wild with it, and it doesn’t how many millions of Catholics tell you that’s not what they’re doing, you insist they are. You know better than millions of people telling you to your face that you’re wrong. That, more than anything else, tells a very interesting story about what’s REALLY going on here.

            As for giving gifts and creating shrines, again, you’re focusing on the actions of about 0.0001%. Snake waving, anyone?

          • Oboehner

            “No, I don’t think anyone has actually worshiped stone.” Now you’re telling me idolatry doesn’t nor has it ever existed, BS.
            “Why would God care as long as the object itself wasn’t being worshiped?” Apparently He was just kidding when he wrote the Ten Commandments, He was also kidding when he commanded against bowing to those graven images.
            “As for giving gifts and creating shrines, again, you’re focusing on the actions of about 0.0001%.” BS again, it is an RCC sanctioned practice.
            “Snake waving, anyone?” Not a biblically sanctioned practice which rules “fundies” out. Sodomizing alter boys anyone?

          • Spoob

            No, I’m not telling you that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Idolatry absolutely existed, mostly in ancient tribes where nature was frequently worshipped. Stone idols WERE the god of many of these tribes. THAT is the practice that is being forbidden.
            Once again you don’t understand that a graven image must be worshipped for idolatry to be taking place. That’s clearly and obviously not going on.
            The RCC doesn’t sanction the practice of idolatry, you’re going to have to push your BS-meter into overdrive to make that one fly.

          • Oboehner

            “Stone idols WERE the god of many of these tribes. THAT is the practice that is being forbidden.” BS, it was the same as the RCC idolatry – worshiping what the idols represented, you know getting in the worship spirit.

            “Once again you don’t understand that a graven image must be worshipped for idolatry to be taking place.” Ah, no. Recheck the graven image commandment, it states “bowing to it” which is what you marians do when you’re “not worshiping” mary. That is clearly and obviously what is going on.
            Oh look, the pope “not worshiping” the graven mary image.

          • Spoob

            Oh look, a picture of the pope showing respect and reverence to Mary. Shocking.

            “It was the same as the RCC idolatry – worshiping what the idols represented” – and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, when the statue represents Jesus Christ.

            Look, we can go in circles all you like. You can continue to accuse Catholics of doing something they know they’re not doing, you can continue to tell them that you know their own minds better than they do, it’s just the same old fundie crap that’s been refuted six gazillion times and you just don’t tire of the hate. Have at ‘er, then. You fundies are a pimple on the buttock of Christendom. what you lack in facts you make up for in volume.

          • pax2u

            I am grateful that these anti Catholics almost never have a denomination

            it is best that the lunatic fringe is always alone

          • Spoob

            O’Boner’s a fundamentalist, meaning he’s turned his brain off.

          • pax2u

            their hatred consumes them

          • Spoob

            I would find it exhausting, harboring so much hate all the time, but they seem to be constantly energized.

          • pax2u

            I actually think that it is all they really have, all that they live for, is to hated someone else, or something else, it is very sad, and I suppose that is why they belong to no denomination, and why they are alone, the lunatic fringe

          • Spoob

            Now I know you will quote the Ten Commandments and claim they forbid the
            making of graven images, but let’s look to see what they really say:

            Exodus 20:3-5 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou
            shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that
            [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the
            water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve
            them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
            fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that
            hate me;”

            and

            Deut. 5: “Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not
            make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in
            heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters
            beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them:
            for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers
            upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate
            me,”

            The whole point here is that we can’t make statues to worship them as
            “gods” not that we cannot make a statue of anything or even use
            statues in worship. A photograph is a graven image. Any carving is a
            graven image. People who oppose statues for use in worship have pictures
            of their mothers or spouses. These same people make statues to honor
            presidents, generals, etc.–almost everybody but the saints in heaven.
            They even even have images of dead politicians on their money. How do we
            know this interpretation is correct? Because God cannot contradict Himself
            and just five short chapters after God first gives the 10 Commandments to Moses
            He commands Moses to make two huge statues on angels to put on the mercy seat of
            the Ark, which is the center of their worship. Angels certainly were a
            “likeness of that which is heaven above.”

            Exodus 25:18-19 “And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten
            work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one
            cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the
            mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.”

            In Numbers 21, the people were being bitten by serpents and dying. Moses
            prayed for the people but that wasn’t enough. God commanded Moses to make a
            graven image– a brass serpent (the people were accusing God of evil so they had
            to look at a image of the devil himself). In order to live the people had
            to look at the brass image of the serpent. Some people will say
            that Moses sinned here. That is impossible because God commanded Moses to do this and God does not
            command sin.

            Numbers 21:8-9 “And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent,
            and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is
            bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass,
            and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any
            man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
            In the New Testament Jesus uses this image to point to His

            own sacrifice on the cross.

            John 3:14 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so
            must the Son of man be lifted up:”

            God commanded Solomon to build the temple. In the temple there were tens
            of thousands of statues including cherubim, palm trees, flowers, pomegranates,
            lilies, lions, oxen. I don’t have time to go into all of the statues
            because there were so many. But you can read about this in 1 Kings 6-9.
            There were statues of things in heaven, in the earth, and in the waters beneath
            the earth if you get my point. The Lord commanded Solomon to do this.
            Afterwards God said it was good and that God had hallowed this house and told
            Solomon to keep His commandments. Solomon had not disobeyed God by
            building the temple with tens of thousands of statues, no God commanded this.

            1 Kings 9:3-7 “And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy
            supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which
            thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart
            shall be there perpetually. And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy
            father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all
            that I have commanded thee, [and] wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: Then I
            will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to
            David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of
            Israel. [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children,
            and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you,
            but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of
            the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my
            name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword
            among all people:”

            Now perhaps someone will bring up the fact that the serpent that Moses was eventually
            destroyed when the Israelites fell into idolatry and began to worship it as a
            god. This is true, we read about this in 2 Kings 18:4. We would
            destroy any statue if people began to worship it as a god, but what does
            this show us? It shows us that the Israelites were able to keep this
            statue for hundreds of years before anyone had a problem with it. It
            wasn’t the statue that was wrong but rather the Israelites had picked up the
            habits of the people surrounding them!

          • Oboehner

            You are comparing apples to oranges here, the graven images of mary were created to represent an object of worship and are bowed to.
            God commanded: make two cherubims [of] gold, Make thee a fiery serpent, Solomon to build the temple. None of which were bowed to, given gifts, kissed, etc. God did not command anyone to make a graven mary image, or worship her by making a shrine.

          • Spoob

            So if someone leaves a gift at the base of a statue, do you think the gift is to the statue, or who the statue represents?

          • Oboehner

            Are you that dense or purposely trying to muddy the waters and ignore the details? That is as good as an admission of guilt. “…the graven images of mary were created to represent an object of worship and are bowed to.”
            You are pathetically attempting to say idolatry is when the graven image itself is worshiped and not what it represents, I highly doubt that anyone ever worshiped the object in and of itself. Typical marian tactic.

          • Spoob

            You’re the one muddying the waters. You keep trying to make this about worship of an object rather than reverence to what the object represents. Hence it’s not idolatry. You can insist it is until your face turns blue, I don’t care. Where have you ever heard the words spoken, “My lord and my savior Mr. Statue? Oh, chunk of rock, I worship thee.”

            You are pathetic. Typical fundie with his ears closed and mouth wide open.

          • Oboehner

            Read slowly, it is not about worship of an object, I have never said it is about worship of an object. According to you idolatry never existed as nobody sat around worshiping an object or a chunk of rock. You are simply trying desperately to justify your idolatry by constantly repeating your nonsense.
            You are pathetic. Typical marian with his ears closed and mouth wide open and his lips stuck to a graven mary image.

          • Spoob

            …???? All right, have you got ROCKS in your head? “I have never said it is about worship of an object” – well WHY haven’t you said that, since that is what idolatry IS. You’re trying to stretch that out to ridiculous lengths that even God couldn’t care less about. Yes there WAS a time when people actually worshiped carved stones and rocks, that is idolatry, that is what is being forbidden. and NOT the respect or veneration of Jesus, Mary or anyone else via some kind of representation.

            Try typing without your white hood obscuring your vision next time.

          • Oboehner

            Try reading without tonguing your graven mary image, show me people who actually worshipped rocks and not what they perceived them to represent, also show me how that even existed at the time the commandment was given. All your doing is trying to deny your idolatrous mary worship (or “veneration” as you marians like to call it).

          • Spoob

            A couple questions…

            1) A friend of mine is sort of an amateur Second World War historian, and he’s missing a few details about what really happened in that German bunker in Berlin, 1945, when the Russian Army was attacking. Who committed suicide first, you or Eva Braun?

            2) When you were a youngster, didn’t your mother ever tell you: a) It’s not nice (and not true) to infer that Catholics are not Christians based on the fact that you misunderstand what idolatry is, and b) It’s not nice to write on message forums when you haven’t taken your medication?

          • Oboehner

            1) how sad for you to resort to such tactics, I think it was you intelligence that committed suicide first.
            2) a – catholic, mormon, jw.. they all use the name of Jesus to claim they are right, however name dropping just don’t get-r-done. b – was that a question or a statement? It’s so hard to tell with your ramblings.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Well, that is sheer, uninformed anti-Catholic bigotry.

          • Oboehner

            I hear that quite often from marians when they wish to dodge a subject.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            It would be very interesting to know what kind of church you grew up in and which you attend now.

          • Oboehner

            Hint, not one that worships mary.

      • James Grimes

        How much of what Spoob tells you do you actually believe?

        • Spoob

          How much hate and garbage are you full of?

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. Not very attractive. “Christian”.
            That’s some brand of Christianity you’ve got there.
            Shameful display.

          • pax2u

            Mot? is that French or your apple sauce

          • Gary

            Notice how the same people who promote homosexuality are also evolutionists.

          • pax2u

            Gary are you still working on building your fascist camp for the extermination of Homosexuals, some Catholics and Me? are you going to be wearing the black SS uniform?

          • Spoob

            No one’s “promoting” homosexuality, we just see no reason to attack it as you are doing.

          • Gary

            You are promoting it.

          • Spoob

            Typical fundamentalist, if it’s not black then it must be white. No shades of grey exist. No one is PROMOTING homosexuality, that’s as ridiculous as promoting heterosexuality. I’m just saying leave them alone.

          • Spoob

            Wow. Not very attractive yourself, O self-righteous one. Disgusting.

        • Oboehner

          And there is so much faith involved as they have no proof.

          • supermike

            The POPE even admits it! You are different than your mother or father. That is Evolution.

          • Oboehner

            The pope is a tool, a fallible man with his own agenda.

    • Coach

      I suppose getting on a Christian news site and making that remark was done out of sanity. Why are you here on this site?, be honest. If people who believe the bible are insane, then what’s the point of getting on this site to make such a comment, or is it simply an expression of heart-felt bitterness that you are here?

      • MattFCharlestonSC

        Public forum, Coach. If you want to trash talk a group of people without them intruding on the conversation, then you should do it in church or in a private forum. We have just as much right to be here as any of you.

      • James Grimes

        Amen. The Useless enjoy stalking sites for Christians.

    • Crono478

      You want to know what is funny? The definition of science means study of knowledge. Are you absolutely sure you know what exactly happened in the past even through we were not there to witness that. We do not have this knowledge ourselves. There are two difference of science. One is observational science which we can do experiments and repeat them in present time. Another one is historical science, it is study of what happened in the past. This kind of science is not repeatable or verifiable in present time because it happened in past! Only way we know what happened in past is when one witnessed and recorded that. That is who we receive our knowledge from.

      Many people including some scientists come up with what they think has happened in past should not be accepted as a fact. If you do, it means you believe in their statements as fact. It does not mean it makes the fact the “truth”.

      • hapy_thoughts

        How can you preach the idea that science cant be right because you weren’t there to witness it (even thought evolution is observable), while still blindly follwing the word of a book describing events that you were not there to witness?

        • Crono478

          This is a good question you asked. I highly suggest you to read this article which will answer your question.

          https://answersingenesis.org/what-is-science/two-kinds-of-science/

          • hapy_thoughts

            By that logic, Homer’s, “The Odyssey,” would be considered historical fact.

          • Crono478

            No because it is not a historical fact. It is an epic poem. It may be hard to believe but Old and New Testament has been proven to be historically accurate.

          • hapy_thoughts

            Proven? Got any facts to back that up?

          • Crono478

            Dead Sea Scroll shows that the Old Testament text we have is same as what it was written on the scroll.
            There is a recent news about 100 ancient tablets found in Iraq area that confirmed the exile of people of Judah from their land. You can read the article that is on this site too. There is other major news web site that talks about that as well.

            That is two of examples that confirms the historical accuracy of Bible.

          • hapy_thoughts

            The dead sea scrolls only proved that we found an old copy of the bible. Finding another copy is not evidence that it’s true. And I would like to point out that, “The Odyssey,” was about the Trojan War. Just because its based on real events doesnt mean that its all real.

          • Crono478

            Not only that but it proved that God’s word has been same through ages. People attempted to prove that Bible were really written by men and it changed over in time but that wasn’t the case.

            Right, but it is an epic poem. Not all of it may be true. That can be said same for other ancient literature. However, Bible is 100% historical accurate because God cannot lie. Everything He says is truth. That is why we can trust Bible.

            —————-

            Leonard Woolley, British archeologist actually have discovered the city of Ur, where Abraham lived before God called him to leave his hometown to travel to the Promised Land.

            https://oi.uchicago.edu/research/projects/excavations-khorsabad – They did find evidence that Sargon, an Assyrian king mentioned in Isaiah 20:1, existed. Also, Isaiah 37 talked more about him too.

            http://www.ancient.eu/Esarhaddon/ shows a stone monument that mentioned Esarhaddon.
            This is another Assyrian king that is mentioned in 2 Kings 19:37

            http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/s/panel,_palace_of_sennacherib-4.aspx confirms that an Assyrian king named Sennacherib mentioned in 2 Chronicles 32 did exist.

            http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/c/cuneiform_fall_of_nineveh.aspx – Mentioned the fall of Nineveh. That was actually recorded in Nahum 1 in Bible.

            That’s four that I could find. Also, Bible includes many
            prophecies that are already fulfilled too. There are some prophecies that remains unfulfilled too.

          • hapy_thoughts

            Firstly, you are the first person I have had a conversation like this with that has shown an understanding of the word “fact.” I respect that.
            Every point you have made about the bible being scientifically viable could also be said of The Odyssey.

            You have a really old copy of the bible. We have older copies of the Odyssey. The bible has historical and geographical accuracies. The Odyssey has historical and geographical accuracies. You are just giving the bible special treatment.

            I commend you for using facts to gather evidence in your favor. But its still just evidence and not proof.

            And about those prophecies, predicting there will be war, there will be famine, and there will be mockers aren’t exactly bold predictions

          • Crono478

            For one of unfulfilled prophecies, why don’t you read the whole chapter of Isaiah 17? When you are done, reply back and see what you learned.

          • hapy_thoughts

            Really?! I go and give you a nice compliment about your understanding and use of facts, and how do you thank me? With this manipulative garbage.

            Convince me with facts. If you have facts on your side you wouldn’t have to guilt people by telling them they are sinners, or theaten them with hell, or temp them with heaven. If you have reason on your side, you wouldn’t have to resort to these manipulation tactics.

          • Crono478

            “And about those prophecies, predicting there will be war, there will be famine, and there will be mockers aren’t exactly bold predictions” is something you would hear repeatedly from someone else who made references to several passages in New Testament. That is why I asked you to read Isaiah 17 which is in Old Testament because it is about a very specific prophecy of one nation that has not happened yet.

            It is not a manipulation tactics because I asked you to. It does not mean I forced you to or manipulated you to read Bible. This is your choice.

          • hapy_thoughts

            And that’s a manipulative passage. It’s not based on reason. It’s not based on fact. I just tells the reader, you don’t wanna be on god’s bad side.

          • Crono478

            You are saying that we should stick to whatever is based on reason. You dismiss Bible because it’s not based on reason. Yet, you just admitted the existence of God by saying that I don’t want to be on His bad side? Is that what you exactly meant by your statements?

          • hapy_thoughts

            Whoops. *it just tells the reader

          • Crono478

            Okay, that is what I thought you meant to say. Is this why you reject Bible? You are saying that this book is not reasonable because you believe that it teaches us that we don’t want to be on His bad side?

          • Crono478

            Okay, that is what I thought you meant to say. That is why you dismiss Bible because you believe that it tells us that we don’t want to be on His bad side?

  • TheBBP

    Nearly 500 churches just outed themselves as un-Biblical, apostate, seeker-sensitive churches.

    • dark477

      no they just acknowledge the facts.

      • TheBBP

        Negative. They follow beliefs that you share, which is not Biblical.

        • dark477

          it’s not belief. there is evidence for evolution and any that ignore it are idiots.

          • Gary

            If evolution happened, it had to be directly caused by God. How about that?

          • dark477

            that’s what most of these churches say

          • Gary

            But, they have no reason to say that while claiming to be Christians because the Bible very plainly says God created everything in six days. The “theistic evolutionists” are contradicting the Bible by supporting evolution. That is hypocrisy.

          • dark477

            they’re trying to reconcile their religion with scientific truths, it’s better than denial which is what you’re doing.

          • Gary

            There is no way to reconcile a six day creation with evolution. It can’t be done while taking the Bible and evolution literally. So, they end up saying the Bible is a fable, but that belief is not supported by the Bible.

          • dark477

            they say that the bible is a metaphor.

          • Gary

            But Genesis is not a metaphor. It is history.

          • dark477

            it’s fable. it has no evidence to support it.

          • Gary

            I am not surprised you say that, but millions of people disagree with you.

          • dark477

            and your point?

          • Gary

            The point is you are wrong.

          • dark477

            then provide the evidence and the bible doesn’t count

          • lance Geologist

            were you there? Who was? When was it written down? Perhaps by Adam? Or was it written down by Moses as the first five books of the Torah? Was this not much later than at the beginning?

  • James Grimes

    It’s not surprising. All the mainline denominations are apostate.

    • Fundisi

      All the mainline denominations are apostate.”

      Exactly right!

      • pax2u

        so this includes Gary’s Baptists

      • James Grimes

        Spooby wants to be part of our discussion, but I won’t let him in.

        • Fundisi

          Sadly, I think he and Paxy think they are Christians.

          • pax2u

            thankfully you are alone and are a part of no Denomination

          • Spoob

            Sadly, I think you and Grimes Against Humanity think you’re God.

          • Fundisi

            We know you are an anti-Christ!

          • Spoob

            I know you are crazy hateful murderous nutbars pretending to be Christians.

          • James Grimes

            I see The Incoherent One is trying his denomination thing again. It didn’t work the last three times he tried.

          • Fundisi

            Hardly anyone understands what you have said, that all major denominations have become apostate and that being a part of a denomination is not Christianity, it is only being a part of the Body of Christ, of being a member of that body that is the only true Church. I serve God and no man and it drives the pox-boy nuts,

          • Spoob

            You’re a joke as a Christian…an utter joke.

          • James Grimes

            We know that they are delusional.

        • Spoob

          I think he got in anyway. Sucks to be you, Grimy.

    • Spoob

      Translation: Billions of Christians are wrong but my little fundie church is right.

      • pax2u

        the angry ones, think that they are the only Christians, ever

        they could never be a part of any denomination, they would spend all of their time denouncing everyone else as heretics,

        theirs is a theology of hating anyone who does not totally agree with them, and even then they would doubt if those who agree with them are really saved

  • supermike

    Sorry to rain on your parade folks, but if you look in the Encyclopedia it will explain Evolution is a fact. All modern medicine is based on it, and that’s why they have to teach it in public schools. This is like The Flat Earth Society around here. Even the Pope admits it is a fact.

    • Gary

      It is not true that life began as molecules with no cause, and over time changed into other things until it arrived at what we now see. The only way that would have been possible is for God to have created the molecules and then caused everything to evolve from them. But “science” so called, refuses to acknowledge that God had to have been the cause for it all, or of any of it. That is why “science” lacks credibility. Anyone wanting to involve God in the process has to explain why they don’t believe the Bible, which clearly says God created everything, including the universe, in six days.

      • lance Geologist

        Wrong, science does not know how the universe began and says so. There are hypothesis but no definitive proof.Therefore any respectable scientist will say “we don’t know, but we are looking into the problem.” We don’t know is not the same as saying God didn’t create the universe.One needs to take it on faith, if one chooses to think God did it.You can’t prove or disprove it.

        • Crono478

          Right, exactly, you just said it there. Right now, you believe in what scientists says through there are definitive no proof. To believe in this requires a leap of faith. This is really the definition of religion, not science. Science means the study of knowledge.

          To believe in what Bible says requires a leap of faith as well. It is a battle of two different religions.

          • lance Geologist

            I can see the fossils, I can see the changes, We can see the genetic changes, only requires the choice to open ones eyes and “see”. NO faith required in scientific studies, in fact the opposite. When a paper about evolution is published all are free to try to refute it, if you can’t refute it then it might be true. This is the scientific method(simplified), no faith required.

        • Gary

          “Science” is adamant that everything evolved, that nothing was created. It is very arrogant about it too. So if scientists do not know how the universe began, why do they act as if they know?

          • lance Geologist

            That species evolved can be demonstrated. Don’t confuse evolution theory with creation, they are NOT the same.They are entirely different.

          • Gary

            Do you believe that God causes evolution to happen? Designs the changes and causes the changes to occur? If not, then who does it?

          • lance Geologist

            It is not a matter of if designed by God or not. The facts are that species evolve through time and evolutionary theory is supported. If God controls everything , then yes God does. If God does not control everything then species evolve based on survival and what benefits species expansion. Neither is for or against God.

          • Gary

            But living things CANNOT evolve unless someone makes it happen. They cannot make themselves evolve, and it cannot happen by chance. The evolution has to be by design and it has to be directed and caused by someone from outside. The problem with that is that God denies making things evolve. He said that he made everything in six days. Exodus 20:11

          • lance Geologist

            Check with Doctors and Biologists. Species do evolve. Why does it have to be by design? Do you consider the “design” job to be good or flawed. If flawed, is God flawed? If Good, why evolution?

    • James Grimes

      Feel free to believe that your Great Grandpa was an ape.

      • Spoob

        Not an ape. There was a common ancestor. Evolution occurs and we observe it.

      • oregon_man

        If you believe that then your great grandfather must have been a rock.

    • Crono478

      The person who wrote about evolution in Encyclopedia declared it to be a fact because he believes in it. To believe in evolution means that you have to believe that we evolved from molecules. Since we were not there to witness what happen the beginning of the universe, it means that you believe in what the person has to say about this as well. It also means you have to believe nothing happens when we die.

      It’s not just “facts”. It is actually a system of belief that you are exhibiting. The system of belief is based on words of men.

      For what God has to say about the beginning when He created everything and how sin has entered this world and why we need the Savior to save us from it, this requires belief as well.

      To summarize, this is a battle between two different system of beliefs.

      • lance Geologist

        And what God says is reported by men and was not even written at the time of the purported events.
        Why not examine the evidence instead of closing your eyes to the world around us?

        • Crono478

          Yup, to examine evidence is all based on how you interpret it. When we examine same evidence, we base it on what we believe is our origins. Until few years ago, I did not believe that God created everything. Also, he was invisible. I accepted what scientists and school has to say about our origins. I examined evidence based on this origin I accepted. I mocked Christians for rejecting science and being backwards. That is until one night I became convinced of my sin by Holy Spirit. I repented and accepted Jesus as my Savior. Over in time, I realized all things many people including some scientists said turned out to be lie. I examined same evidence again and realized that evolution is a lie. If it is truth then it means death occurred before first sin committed by Adam and Eve. I would have to throw out whole Bible. I knew that God’s words are all truth. He led me to read “The Lie: Evolution” by Ken Ham. That completely woke me up and it became very clear to me. You should read this book. He is really a scientist and a teacher himself who stands for God’s word. His book is available on Answer in Genesis site for free.

          • lance Geologist

            he is not a scientist, only a self serving fraud. I would assume the “evidence ” is the bible. I feel sorry for you that you would throw out the Bible if a part of it is not factual.

          • Crono478

            Is that what you think of every Christian?

          • Gary

            If the Bible presents something as an historical account, as it does Genesis, and it turns out not to be true historically, then why would you believe anything else in the Bible?? I would not.

          • lance Geologist

            I feel sorry for you, such a narrow view. Guess you don’t believe the Earth is round??? The Bible is a poor science book and worse history book. Great for defining how to live, be with people and seek God though.

          • KenS

            Isaiah 40:22 tells us that the earth is round. “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, ..”

          • James Grimes

            I hate to tell you Bud, but on this forum your opinion is meaningless and your presence here is insignificant.

          • lance Geologist

            funny

          • Spoob

            Typical snotty self-righteous exclusionary attitude.

          • Spoob

            If you’ve gotten under Grimes’ skin, congratulations. It’s a rite of passage on this forum.

          • James Grimes

            Thank you for sharing. It is a common experience, but interesting nevertheless. Blessings for a great relationship with the Lord.

          • supermike

            Ken Ham is a joke. He looked so ridiculous when debating Bill Nye. He couldn’t answer the questions. He said God made the tree rings look like the Earth was older. Preposterous. All doctors know it is a proven fact and so do judges that say it must be taught in schools because that is how we got here.

          • Crono478

            This is because you heard what Ken said but did not want to admit that it’s true. That’s what Holy Spirit does. That is why you find him to be so ridiculous. All of us resisted God’s words at first but only some of us accepted Jesus Christ as our Savior.

            Please do not wait until it is too late to make this decision.

          • supermike

            Scientists have fully anchored chronology of tree rings for over 11,000 years, and Ken Ham says God made it look like the trees have been here for more than 6,000. FAKED TREE RINGS? All I can say is brainwashing is powerful.

          • Crono478

            There were more than 10,000 layers within an ice core. Everyone thought that it was more than 10,000 years because of that. Later on, they actually discovered that there can be more than one layer former for each year, which refuted their assumption that one layer equal to one year.

            No, people were told to accept what they learn in schools and college and not to question the validity of their findings.

            Even Bible says that it is commendable for us to check every thing what Padtor to make sure it follows Bible. In other words, we are not to blindly accept everything what one says when it comes to any topic.

          • oregon_man

            Yep, Ken Ham is a liar alright, and a charismatic deceiver.

          • Crono478

            You asked me if I have watched Ken Ham vs Bill Nye. The answer is yes. If you are making a point that Bill Nye have won the debate, then no, I urge you to get rid of your bias and pay close attention to the debate.

            Also, another good video to watch is God Vs Evolution by Living Waters on YouTube. It is around 34-35 minutes long.

      • supermike

        Two systems of beliefs. One can be seen, proven, and most of all, allow predictions. Peter Higgs predicted the Higgs Boson, or “God Particle” was necessary during the Big Bang that created the universe in an explosion that happened 14 billion years ago, and 50 years later it was seen, and proven correct at the Large Hadron Collider and he won the Nobel Prize for it. The other system of beliefs has never had any scientific evidence shown whatsoever. They seem to continue along their path refusing to look at any of the evidence produced from the scientific “reality based” side.

        • hapy_thoughts

          Hooray for facts!

        • Bill

          New “scientific” evidence is now questioning all that you said…

        • Bill

          The Standard Model of particle physics is a theoretical framework that explains how the basic building blocks of matter interact, governed by four fundamental forces. Developed in the early 1970s, it has successfully explained almost all experimental results and precisely predicted a wide variety of phenomena – including the mass of the Higgs boson. “Theoretical”………

      • supermike

        A belief is something you have no evidence for, a proven fact is something that all the evidence seamlessly fits together as for there to be only one possible explanation.

        • Gary

          Not exactly. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead. I am taking the word of others about that, but that is not the same as having no evidence. I believe that God made everything in six days because things exist, because I know that if God had not created them, they would not exist, and because I trust that the Bible is correct because it has been correct before.

        • Crono478

          Right, now, evolution is not a fact because people has not witnessed that to happen now. It is all based on past records that they interpreted to show that evolution is “true”. This is not actual evidence. To accept evolution is technically to believe in it. That is not compatible with Bible because God declared his creation to be very good which means He made no mistake in what He created.

          • supermike

            Uh, no. We witness it everyday. That’s why we have to use different antibiotics. Bacteria are evolving to resist them. All medicine is based on Evolution. That’s why you have an extra vertebrae in your back called a coccyx that is part of a tail. Layperson refer to it as a tailbone.

          • Gary

            But, you never see bacteria evolve into anything other than bacteria.

          • Crono478

            This is not an example of evolution. It is true that a particular bacteria do develop resistance to antibiotics. Bacteria can develop resistance depending on what method it uses and it becomes a new strain. That is why we see many strains of influenza (which is a virus but it is a same idea). We have not seen any virus or bacteria evolving into something entirely different. We have not seen influenza evolving into Ebola.

            I will give you a better example. We have many breeds of dogs but they are still dogs! They can breed with wolves because they are still the same kind. People do develop breeds to have them to do certain tasks such as retrieving items or to help herd livestock. We have not observed any dogs to evolve into a cat. The fact that we do see each species to breed after their own kind is a wonderful testimony to this verse below:

            Genesis 1:24-25

            24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

          • lance Geologist

            Evolution takes a lot of time. You can see it if you examine the fossil record. Nothing to interpret, just open your eyes. You could also look at genetic records, but I guess you don’t want to see.
            “We have many breeds of dogs but they are still dogs! They can breed with wolves because they are still the same kind.” Yes species do breed within each species! Duhh, that’s how a species is partially defined. You state the obvious and then argue it. Its called a straw man argument! Can you do better?

          • Crono478

            No, because there are many variations within the same kind. Can you come up with an example that evolution did happen via fossil record?

          • lance Geologist

            Oh my gosh,”Why do we see fossil records all over the earth including marine fossil records on top of mountains?” You have got to be kidding! Have you not heard or read of plate tectonics? Mountain building? Beds with fossils were deposited in the oceans, then with movement of the oceanic plates the deposits were uplifted over millions of years. 1 cm per year uplift equals 1 meter in 100 years.Over 100,000 years this equals one kilometer. Over 1 million years this is 10 kilometers or about 6 miles., now imagine 10 or 100 million years and how much movement there can be!
            The key is time, lots of time. Try looking it up on the internet , you might be amazed what there is out there to learn.

          • Crono478

            I got all of your answers to my questions except this one:

            What condition is fossilization required to happen, so we can find fossil records later on?

            It is very important question I asked you first before I asked you subsequent questions.

          • lance Geologist

            For fossilization to occur organisms must first be deposited in sediment ( eroding land won’t work).
            The fossil must be in an environment that can preserve the organism. That is usually in a reducing(without much oxygen) environment.
            The fluids in the surrounding rock must allow for the replacement of the organism ( soft material replaced by silica, pyrite,etc).
            The rocks holding the fossil can’t be heated up too much or the fossil is lost.Silt becomes shale and with more heat shale becomes slate. Slate not a good place to look. Limestone is a good place to look , marble is not.
            Not asked , but then the rocks must be available to be seen. Either uplifted to surface of the land or mountains or seen in drill cores or cuttings or in mines.

          • Crono478

            Can fossils be formed gradually over in millions of years? Or have you consider the possibility that it can be done in an extremely rapid fashion?

          • lance Geologist

            Some might occur ” rapidly” if the very limited conditions for their preservation exist. However with tens of thousands of feet of rock and millions of square miles of area such possible events would be the rare exception. Only in creationist literature do very rare exceptions make the “rule”, for the rest of this Earth , the process stated above takes huge amounts of time to complete. Of coarse the initial preservation is quick, but lithification and fossilization times are measured in the tens of thousands if not millions of years. All that I am pointing out can be verified if one looks at geological literature.

          • Crono478

            Is this evidence of fossilization that took place over million of years or did it happen very rapidly?

            If we remember our observation of fish, they do eat each other very quickly. This picture I took is from livescience.com site, not a creation site such as Answer in Genesis.

          • lance Geologist

            Looks like Eocene fishes from the Green River shale. i have collected there and many are preserved in ash(volcanic) deposits. Looks like it must have choked on it meal. Good idea to take small bites.As far as speed, see my comments above about fossilization.

          • Crono478

            Since you actually worked on these fossil records, can you tell me how you determined that it came from Eocene epoch which is estimated to be between 56 to 33.9 million years ago. Did you use any type of dating? If so, what was it? Did it estimate the date of each fossil?

          • lance Geologist

            I suggest you look up “Index Fossils.” Fossils, microscopic and macroscopic fossils can and are mapped through the upward layers of rock. These layers can be compared to potassium -Argon dating( other methods also used) to establish approximate ages of the rock. The correlation of rock layers is worldwide and consistent throughout the world.The many layers can be seen on the surface and in the subsurface in wells.There is no need to “estimate” the age of each fossil. The plethora of data and ranges of fossil is well known in the geologic literature.Check it out if you want to know.

          • Crono478

            So, you did not do any kind of examination on fossils you found in various deposits? Rather, you find information for each fossil record you find based on what geologic literature has supplied you? For example, you say that you used their Index Fossils to determine their approximate age based on what layers you found fossils in. Do you accept whatever is written in geologic literature to be fact?

          • lance Geologist

            Information is accepted as fact if it is verified by other people. There are plenty of scientists who are quite willing to try to prove you wrong. If they can’t then one is probably correct. That is why information is published and reviewed. I suggest you check out what the scientific method is and why it is important.

          • Crono478

            I am not sure why my reply did not go through yesterday. Are you saying that you do not have to do any dating method on fossil records you found. Rather, you use Index Fossil to determine their approximate age based on what sedimentary layer you found them in? All of these information comes from geologic literature? Do you accept everything what people write for the literature from various sources such as geological societies across USA to be fact?

          • lance Geologist

            Dating methods are used when available. Once established for a unique fossil , then that date can be used wherever the unique or index fossil is found. Its like putting a puzzle together, using all the information available.

          • Crono478

            What do you do when dating methods are not available to use? When they are available, Potassium–argon dating is only one you would be using? If no, what are additional dating methods that you would use to date your unique fossils?

          • lance Geologist

            I suggest one Google ” types of fossil dating methods ” and read the results. That said here are some methods.

            Uranium-lead dating. This technique measures the ratio of two lead isotopes (lead-206 and lead-207) to the amount of uranium in a mineral or rock. Often applied to the trace mineral zircon in igneous rocks, this method is one of the two most commonly used (along with argon-argon dating) for geologic dating. Uranium-lead dating is applied to samples older than about 1 million years.
            Uranium-thorium dating. This technique is used to date speleothems, corals, carbonates, and fossil bones. Its range is from a few years to about 700,000 years.
            Potassium-argon dating and argon-argon dating. These techniques date metamorphic, igneous and volcanic rocks. They are also used to date volcanic ash layers within or overlying paleoanthropologic sites. The younger limit of the argon-argon method is a few thousand years.

          • Crono478

            Yes, I already read information regarding dating methods used in archaeology such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_methodologies_in_archaeology, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating,
            and http://goo.gl/FV29eO. I see the list of dating methods and what they do and what it is used for.

            Information can be found in geological literature as well. You have described limitations for each type of radiometric dating. They state that each of them have a half life which is radioactive atoms undergoes radioactive decay at a constant rate. Most of radiometric dating methods have half life that is way beyond our normal human lifespan. Since we were not there when radioactive atoms began to undergo radioactive decay, how do we know that the rate is constant from the start to end? Is it the assumption that scientists hold on this area? Is it ever possible that the rate can accelerate or slow down?

          • lance Geologist

            there is no evidence of a different rate. Your line of reasoning is no different than saying, ” we weren’t there , could we all be created by the flying spaghetti monster?” Instead of saying could there have been a different rate(totally absurd), provide evidence for your hypothesis. Or at least a method to test your hypothesis.

          • Crono478

            I did not state that we were created by a “flying spaghetti monster” or any other deity you might mention. Regarding scientific hypothesis, we come up with a method to conduct experiments and record what we witness that exactly happened. We repeat these experiments to see if it produces the same result. This is what we can certainly do.

            It is true that we were not there to observe when radioactive atoms began to undergo radioactive decay. There were no written records of actual observations for this. We don’t have the ability to go back in time to actually test each hypothesis for accuracy. How do you exactly know that radioactive decay will be at a constant rate?

          • lance Geologist

            Then state your data for inconsistent radioactive decay!You miss my point about spaghetti monster. Questioning rater of decay without data is just plain silly. That is what I am pointing out!We see rates and they don’t change. Don’t make silly what if statements without data! As far as we see and test rates of decay are consistent!!!!!!!! Until YOU can provide a test or data otherwise stop with your silly ” we weren’t there”

          • Crono478

            Scientists relies on their assumptions that radioactive elements decay at a constant rate. However, Recent discoveries casts doubt on this assumption. In fact, the article,
            http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/sun-082310.html, solar flares were discovered to affect the rate of radioactive decay.

            Another article, http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2011/05/03/radioactive-decay-rates-may-not-be-constant-after-all/, mentioned the problem with the assumption that it is at a constant rate. I will include their exact quotation:

            “As the researchers pored through published data on specific isotopes, they found disagreement in the measured decay rates – odd for supposed physical constants.

            Checking data collected at Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island and the Federal Physical and Technical Institute in Germany, they came across something even more surprising: long-term observation of the decay rate of silicon-32 and radium-226 seemed to show a small seasonal variation. The decay rate was ever so slightly faster in winter than in summer.

            Was this fluctuation real, or was it merely a glitch in the equipment used to measure the decay, induced by the change of seasons, with the accompanying changes in temperature and humidity?”

            This exact quotation mentions that researchers in two different locations pored through published data, they discovered the findings that shows fluctuation in decay rate of two different radioactive elements. Because of this, they have to put their assumptions behind and ask questions about this finding.

            Now, I want to mention Potassium-argon dating. This is the most common method of dating rocks used by geologists like yourself. This is based on the assumption that no radiogenic argon was in these rocks during or after they were formed (http://goo.gl/3ABdbe). However, it also stated the limitations for this type of dating. It acknowledges that there are external factors that can alter the result of calculation of K/Ar age (http://goo.gl/MXwRNs). Scientists observed recent lava flows that have excess K/Ar produced very old age based on K/Ar dating (Funkhouser, J. G., and J. J. Naughton (1968), Radiogenic helium and argon in ultramafic inclusions from Hawaii, J. Geophys. Res., 73(14), 4601–4607, doi:10.1029/JB073i014p04601).

            Now, you claim that you see rates and they don’t change. How do you exactly refute these discoveries that scientists found about the rate of radioactive decay? I provided you the data and sources too.

          • oregon_man

            You’re still at it. The same ridiculous rapid fire of irrelevant questions as you struggle to keep your head above water. We were not there for anything in the bible. It wasn’t even written down until so-called eye witnesses were dead many years. It is 100% hearsay that has been embellished many times as it was translated, edited, modified over 2000 years.

          • oregon_man

            We know by the laws of physics. Your attack in the last several posts is one often used by religious when they are losing the debate, as they always do. Why don’t you just insist all scientific dating methods are deeply flawed and therefore evolution is false? But what about many claims by religious about the age of religious artifacts they dig up? You are accomplishing nothing.

          • KenS

            circular reasoning.

          • lance Geologist

            Death must have been quick but fossilization took longer.

          • supermike

            Why does a giraffe have the same number of vertebrae in its neck? Why do we have a tailbone? Why does a baby start out looking like a fish? Everyone but you knows it is a fact. EVEN THE POPE!!

          • Crono478

            “Why does a baby start out looking like a fish”

            That is a big lie. Why don’t you look closely at each stage of baby development and see if they look like fish at all.

          • oregon_man

            All mutation is micro-evolution. We see it all the time, based on survival of the fittest. Viruses and bacteria evolve to fend off medicines we developed.

      • Bill

        Thank you. That was well said.

      • oregon_man

        Completely wrong, irrational and illogical. Evolution comes from science, not beliefs. Ironically your religion is 100% hearsay and unsubstantiated, supernatural stories.

    • Coach

      “All modern medicine is based on it”, says who, you? We Christians believe the Bible to be God’s Word and we believe in God the Father, the virgin birth, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and the absolute necessity of man to be born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Why should we believe some person who calls themselves supermike. I put my faith in Jesus Christ, if you want to believe an encyclopedia written by people who don’t believe in God, go ahead, but don’t expect to get on a Christian site and convince us to follow in the same error. For those of us who’ve been born again, we’ve been where you are, why would we want to go back?

      • supermike

        You really don’t want to know what the scientists are saying these days. I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard about a scientifically proven inverse correlation between intelligence and religiosity. Scientists have proven that the more intelligent a person is, the less likely that they’ll be religious. If there is a God he is a cruel one to make the people that believe in him on average 7 points lower IQ. Oh, I forgot, you don’t read Encyclopedias.

        • Gary

          “For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many noble , are called: but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence.” 1 Cor. 1:26-29

        • Coach

          What scientists? You’re trusting men in lab coats to be right, how did you get here? Who’s air do you breathe? You like the idea of being able to do whatever you want, but please understand that if God gives you what you’re asking for, you’re separated from Him and all His goodness. I don’t need to prove to you that God is real, you ignore the obvious to believe a lie. You wouldn’t deny the painter behind a painting, yet you deny the Creator God behind creation and call Him cruel, yet He allows you to live, even after you make such blasphemous statements, I pray that you’ll stop trusting the lie and see the truth, because the one blinding you is satan and he blinded me too for years. You don’t want this and I don’t want it for you 2 Thessalonians 1:9 ” These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,” The lake of fire is just part of eternal destruction, but I think the worst is being cut off from the presence of the One who made you and sustains your life and to spend eternity thinking what if. You know God is real, please have the humility to seek Him for the Truth and not trust in flawed people who speak great swelling words to sound intelligent.

          • supermike

            Those men in lab coats invented the computer you are using, the software on it, and the car you drive, and NONE of them believe in God! Who are the smartest people you can think of? Einstein, Hawking, Freud, Ford, Disney, Gates, Musk, Buffet. It is well proven that the longer you stay in school, the more likely you will believe in Evolution and not believe in God.

          • supermike

            Those guys in lab coats invented the computer you are using, the car you’re driving, and the medicine that keeps you alive. By the way, none of them believe in God!

          • supermike

            Uh, those men in lab coats invented the computer you’re using, the car you’re driving and the medicine that saves your life. P.S. None of them believe in God.

          • Coach

            Really and what are their names?

          • oregon_man

            Ah, as they always do, Coach is falling into defeat and begging a campaign of distraction. I’ll keep reading down and soon he will resort to ad hominem attacks.

          • oregon_man

            You coach are pretty much delusional with you very own imaginary friend and keeper. Good luck with that.

        • http://lifefromgod.com/ Graham Dull

          .

          It is the intelligent people who recognise that the universe can accomplish the most extraordinary things without any need of intelligence.

          The universe has proven to them that all things operate quite well without purpose, without design, and without intelligence.

          See http://lifefromgod.com/

          .

          • supermike

            It is a cruel God indeed that makes believers on average have 7 points lower IQ than non believers. 4 out of 5 surveys ever done (some by churches) show an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence.

    • bowie1

      So, it is written in a book and that is evidence? That’s what skeptics say about the Bible.

      • dark477

        the difference is they have evidence to back up their claims.

        • Gary

          Disagree.

          • dark477

            show it then.

          • Gary

            You are the one who claims the evidence for evolution. It is your burden to prove it.

          • dark477

            go read the thousand of studies on the subject.

          • Gary

            I have read some of the claims, but I found them unconvincing.

          • http://tgsnt.tv/ Derka Derka Allahu Akbar DERP!

            im young and i always though saying humans came from monkeys made no damn sense. why didnt the monkeys evolve too then?

          • BarkingDawg

            Er, they did.

            We have a common ancestor, one that is primitive to both species.

          • oregon_man

            For many reasons. Monkey do evolve, but all species that comes close to humans is exterminated by humans. There is lots of evidence that humans killed off many species.

          • oregon_man

            Isn’t it ironic when religious people stomp their feet and wave their hands around demanding “proof” of science, all the while they swear by their religion that has no evidence or proof whatsoever?

        • bowie1

          What evidence? All I have is their word. And why should I believe their claims?

          • dark477

            because they have DNA, the fossil record and examples of evolution occurring now.

      • supermike

        Evidence with proof, which does not exist with anything in the Bible. ZERO!

        • bowie1

          They had EYEWITNESSES which provide the evidence. Evolution on the other hand depends on speculation of how it might have been with NO real proof since according to its scenario no human beings existed yet.

          • oregon_man

            Read up on eyewitness testimony, the most unreliable source in legal proceedings. Besides the bible has no eyewitness testimony. It was written from HEARSAY hundreds of years after the claim. Funny how all your supposed arguments support evolution more than religion.

      • oregon_man

        Science is not written in a book except to document successful experimentation and discovery. The bible is a written work of fiction that was handed down by oral story telling before it was “written in a book”.

        • bowie1

          How do you KNOW it was a “work of fiction”? Because somebody said so, and if they did, how do you KNOW they are a reliable source?

          • oregon_man

            I conclude that it is a work of fiction, not necessarily intentional fiction, just a very old story that began before writing and was told orally from generation to generation. All stories ‘evolve’ ironically with time. They get embellished to make each version more dramatic. It’s human nature, proven in tests like have school kids pass a sentence on to nearest student until all have heard it. By the time the story gets to the end it has changed significantly.
            Not all the bible is fiction. It is based on real events, just sweetened over time, translation, versions, churches, blah, blah. We longed for and created religion at the point in human evolution where we could believe things that were not real and immediate.

  • Crono478

    For anyone who believes that both evolution and the Scripture is compatible with each other, I highly recommend you to read the book called “The Lie: Evolution” by Ken Ham.

    • dark477

      Hah.

    • oregon_man

      Then you should watch the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on youtube.

  • Coach

    Question for evolutionists, why are you suppressing the truth of God, by denying Him as the ultimate Creator and Sustainer of life? You claim that God’s not real, yet you’re spending your life trying to disprove Him. You’re even going as far as to get on a Christian site to do so. It’s strange how people want to kick Christianity out of every part of our society and since that isn’t enough for people who do the work of their father satan, they get on a Christian news site to try and convert people from having hope to their hopeless way of living. How old is the earth? how do you know? Why are people different skin colors? Does a child have to be taught to do wrong? Where did water come from? Could 2 apes have a human baby? Why do we have a rainbow? which came first the chicken or the egg, the seed or the fruit tree? Look for answers outside of the Bible and you’ll find tons, none of which are true. Admit one thing, you believe a textbook, I believe the Bible, both systems of belief.

    • oregon_man

      This “Christian” site is devoted to deceiving its readers. It also attacks science at every opportunity. Unlike you, I don’t limit my information intake to exclusively sources that confirm my previously-held beliefs. That is the big problem with Christians who read this site. They *only* read sources that confirm what they already believe. Google “confirmation bias”. For many, even some Christians, the war on science and radicalization of Christianity is wrong and should be an objection.

  • bowie1

    I suspect our pastor may continue to preach on the Heidelberg Catechism question on, what is our only hope in life and in death, which is in Christ Jesus. He is more real than any of mankind’s fallible theories.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Allen/1230115147 Daniel Allen

    look at it this way. Any thing that has a design has to have a designer.Something like a human or animal body has a set of very detailed instructions to enable it to grow into what ever the instructions tell to.You cant build anything in this world with out a plan.Information ( DNA) cannot just ” happen “. It takes a planner. It takes a creator.

  • jr61020

    Be interested in knowing what denominations celebrate Darwin BD

  • Crankright

    If you believe that the bible is Gods word and you are calling him
    a liar after the first chapter…why believe the rest of it?

    • Gary

      Exactly. If Genesis is not true, then none of the Bible is credible. But, the evolutionists who are trying to reconcile the Bible with evolution don’t really believe the Bible anyway. If they did, they would believe what it says about creation.

      • supermike

        The Pope even says it is garbage.

      • BarkingDawg

        People who believe that genesis is literally true have no sense of imagination.

  • alnga

    Strange that Darwin remained a Christian his entire life. I suspect that he enjoyed the travel, the attention when he returned and the speaking engagements. But if he remained a Christian I question his sincerity on evolution which up to this very day has no logical proof of this theory.

    • supermike

      To be a scientific theory all the proof ever found has to fit seamlessly into the theory by definition. Do you believe the Earth is in the center of the universe and that the sun goes around it?

  • Hate-Not

    Evolution as much as the creation remain a “philosophy” under study. Natural selection and random chance and big bang are still a theory yet to be proven. If we are all dancing to the tune of DNA and electrical activity in our cells and if life is a product of time + matter + chance, nothing is rational in this world, including our arguments. Science can only answer ‘what’ and only God can answer ‘why.’ To say this complex world with all intricacies, fine tuning and mysteries and purpose came out of a random explosion is like saying a fire at printing press resulted in Shakespeare literature, or an explosion at junkyard resulted in jumbo jet. It is a great fallacy that all scientists are atheists, but on the contrary.

    • dark477

      Lewis was an OK writer but a lousy philosopher, I wouldn’t use his arguments on any subject . this for example, why does the fact that we weren’t created by a god make our own perceptions untrustworthy?

  • Mr Al

    How big is God? How shallow and small minded are these churches who celebrate Darwinism a demonic God denying theory which science is failing miserably to prove.

    Can God in one breath not create a universe? Is God incapable of getting creation right first time and has to tweak His works through evolutionary processes?

    Do these churches realise the hellish philosophies that have spawned from Darwin’s racist Origin of species( “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life”.)

    Recommended reading “Darwinism and the degenerate science”

    • tyler

      Evolution already has been proven. It is true, and it is a fact. Just like gravity is a fact.
      Please research and learn more about this.

      • Mr Al

        We’ll find out immediately after death whether the creator and the afterlife is true or mumbo jumbo. Good luck

        • tyler

          Yes we will. Or we won’t if we’re just dead. Best of luck to you as well.

      • Mr Al

        P.s. Mr Al Bsc (hons) Bsc (hons)

  • Mr. Avatar

    Help this mother get her daughter back from an abusive man. http://www.gofundme.com/kvl8is

  • tovlogos

    According to NOMA, science and religion are incompatible with each other, because science allegedly deals with facts and theories while religion deals with morality and meaning. This simply isn’t true; having such a conversation is like digging a hole in the sand’ or speaking in different languages.

    “The problem with this concept is that it commits the fact-value distinction,” Breeden said. “Christianity makes claims (values) that are rooted in historical fact.” Obviously.

    One of the things we learned form John chapter 3 is that it is impossible to expect a person to understand spiritual things who is spiritually incapacitated. A significant portion of the ostensible “church” is in the same frame of mind as Nicodemus in John 3; and they have observed a “form” of Christianity, but nothing remotely related to what Jesus left for the sake of future generations. Thus church history has largely been a disaster, void of the Spirit; but full of confessions and water rituals; when all that is required for salvation is to believe in Jesus. If the belief is sincere, The Holy Spirit will “immerse,” or “baptize” us in the Spirit; He will indwell us; and we will be obedient to His words. (Luke 8:21).
    Moreover, passages such as Luke 20:42; Romans 1:28, among others, show that there always comes a point when stubbornness against God leads to spiritual deafness. Yet, the great commission continues because there are still people in the world who will hear it and receive it — until the very last person is in the fold; then it’s all over.

  • BarkingDawg

    Evolution is the true mystery of the universe. the Adam and Eve story is a tale made up by an ignorant sheep farmer.

  • EdWalton

    If evolution were true rape, slavery, and genocide would be noble pursuits. Read Darwin’s sub-title ‘The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life’ from the beginning evolution has been a racist dogma!

    • dark477

      first races in this case is a another word for species and two evolution is a scientific theory it makes no clam on what is or isn’t moral.

      • EdWalton

        If evolution through survival of the fittest were fact, there’d be no concept of morals. Darwin in his Decent of Man isn’t discussing plants & animals.

    • tyler

      evolution is true, and a fact, and none of those awful things are considered noble pursuits.

      • EdWalton

        The evolutionist have massive mounds of fossils
        & a grand storyboard; there’ll never be evidence the two are interrelated! Survival of the fittest will always be in opposition
        to all perceptions of human dignity, without GOD there’d be no concept of
        morality.

    • oregon_man

      Wrong Ed. Morals are a product of evolution. You can even find moral values in some lower species like chimpanzees and other apes.

  • http://lifefromgod.com/ Graham Dull

    .
    QUESTION: Evolution Sunday, or Creation Sunday, or Exodus 20?

    Hundreds of ‘Churches’ to Celebrate ‘Evolution Sunday’ as
    Others Celebrate ‘Creation Sunday’

    Exodus 20: “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. For
    in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that
    is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed
    the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
    .

  • http://lifefromgod.com/ Graham Dull

    .
    Genesis doesn’t agree with evolution.

    GENESIS

    Birds created on Day 5 (Period 5)
    Land animals created on Day 6 (Period 6)
    (This is in reverse order to the Theory of Evolution.)

    EVOLUTION

    Land animals existed ‘first,’ and they (dinosaurs) evolved into birds.
    Evolutionists need to reject Genesis completely.

    Life from God .com

    http://lifefromgod.com/
    .

    • tyler

      correct, so if you think Genesis is literal, then Genesis is wrong.
      Evolution is a fact.
      An enormous chunk of Christians, many millions, accept the fact of evolution.

      • http://lifefromgod.com/ Graham Dull

        .
        If God, evolution and Genesis are all true – then Genesis would progress in the same manner as evolution ‘from the simple to the complex.’

        As it is, Genesis projects a different order to the Theory of Evolution. ‘Birds arriving first, with land animals coming later’ cannot be reconciled with evolution.

        Life from God .com
        http://lifefromgod.com/
        .

        • tyler

          Yes, that is very clear that Genesis is much different than Evolution. Genesis is a cute ancient story about how everything came to be – we have moved on from accepting the story in Genesis about how the universe and world and animals came into existence.

          I see how you made sure to call evolution the ‘theory of evolution’. yes, evolution is a theory. so is gravity. gravity is a scientific theory that is a a fact. exactly the same as evolution is a theory and a fact.

    • Guest

      Land animals didn’t come until about 3 billion years later, about 500,000 years ago.

    • supermike

      The Pope admits Evolution is a fact.

  • Rich Rochester

    “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Mt. 7.13-14

  • supermike