Rob Bell to Oprah: Church Is ‘Moments Away’ from Embracing Same-Sex ‘Marriage’

BellThis past Sunday, during an episode of Oprah’s “Super Soul Sunday,” Rob Bell, the former head “pastor” of Michigan’s Mars Hill Bible Church and author of “Love Wins,” a book questioning the orthodox Christian view of Hell, told the talk show host that he believes the Church is “moments away” from embracing same-sex “marriage.”

Bell had appeared on the broadcast with his wife Kristen to discuss their book “The Zimzum of Love: A New Way of Understanding Marriage.”

“I think it’s great that you all made a conscious choice to include gay marriage in [the book],” Oprah states following a clip showing Mrs. Bell reading a selection claiming that same-sex nuptials are a gift to the world. “Why [did you do that]?”

“One of the oldest aches in the bones of humanity is loneliness,” Rob Bell replied. “Loneliness is not good for the world. Whoever you are, gay or straight, it is totally normal, natural and healthy to want someone to go through life with. It’s central to our humanity. We want someone to go on the journey with.”

“When is the Church going to get that?” Oprah asked.

“We’re close,” he responded.

“I think it’s evolving,” Bell’s wife interjected.

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“Lots of people are already there,” Bell added. “We think it’s inevitable and we’re moments away from the Church accepting it.”

He asserted that the Church will “continue to be even more irrelevant” if it continues to cite the Bible’s prohibitions on homosexual behavior.

“I think culture is already there, and the Church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense,” Bell said, “when you have in front of you flesh-and-blood people who are your brothers and sisters, and aunts and uncles, and co-workers and neighbors, and they love each other and just want to go through life.”

“There are churches who are moving forward and there are churches who are almost regressing and making it more of a battle,” his wife added.

As previously reported, Bell first publicly came out in support of same-sex “marriage” in 2013.

“I am for marriage. I am for fidelity. I am for love, whether it’s a man and woman, a woman and a woman, a man and a man,” he said. “I think the ship has sailed and I think the church needs—I think this is the world we are living in and we need to affirm people wherever they are.”

Bell likewise opined that many evangelicals can no longer be classified as conservatives because their beliefs have changed with the times.

“I think we are witnessing the death of a particular subculture that doesn’t work. … You sort of die or you adapt,” he asserted. “And we have supported policies and ways of viewing the world that are actually destructive. And we’ve done it in the name of God and we need to repent.”

In light of his controversial views, some have said that Bell is leading many down a dark and destructive path.

“Plain and simple, Rob Bell’s teachings are not true to the words of Scripture,” Eric Ludy, pastor of Church at Ellerslie and president of Ellerslie Mission Society in Windsor, Colorado, told Christian News Network in 2013. “They are a sly attempt at blending the philosophies of our post-modern age with the vernacular of pop-Christianity. The end product is highly dangerous to the human soul because it is the forging of a golden calf god—a god of our culture’s making—and certainly not the God of the Bible.”

Photo: Oprah Winfrey Network


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  • thoughtsfromflorida

    Isn’t it wonderful that we live in a country where people can express their opinions?

  • Paul Hiett

    And congratulations to Texas for striking down their ban!!!!! Looks like progress is taking hold. Only 12 states left to go…and while it might seem moot since the USSC will declare it a federal law in June, it’s still progress when a Bible belt state wakes up.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/17/texas-gay-marriage_n_6701426.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000013

  • Oboehner

    In order for the church to accept “same-sex” marriage, it must first reject God and his word. Looks like these people are well on their way.

    • TheBBP

      Rob Bell rejected God and His Word long ago.

    • Sunnysmom

      If the church is honest with itself, there are many parts of God’s word they currently reject because those actions are considered felonies or culturally unacceptable today.

      • Ricky McCarl

        Name five things from God’s word that we reject because they are considered felonies? This rhetoric doesn’t work. It’s been used over and over again and those of us who know the bible aren’t buying it.

        • Ed

          Killing kids for talking back; owning another human being; killing cheating husbands and their (married) mistresses; burning a priests daughter alive if she becomes a prostitute; killing atheists (or other blasphemers); killing apostates; etc. etc. etc.

          • tekwrite

            Not in MY Bible…

          • Kamike Serpantail

            If a man rapes a virgin who doesn’t already belong to another man, he is to pay her father and she becomes his bride. Hitler was more moral than the god of the bible.

          • Michelle Bowen

            LOL are you reading the Koran? WTF?! The Bible NEVER called for that. Prove it! Now……I call you on your bluff show me the scripture word for word! NOW!

          • Kerrigan C

            You say such idiotic things and call yourself a Christian? You are so ignorant you can’t even spell the things you’re talking about. I’m embarrassed you identify as a Christian (despite the comment you’re responding to).

          • KenS

            This is a an argument as to why the NIV is a corrupted Bible, cause it can lead one to believe that it is rape that was going on here. The KJV says it this way and when you look at the orig Hebrew text the word used for “lay hold on her” is like unto getting her smitten by love or seduction, to cause her to give in to her sexual lust. the verse reads: “If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel;s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” He humbled her by use of seduction, not rape here.

          • Kerrigan C

            Precisely the point I’ve been making throughout this forum….translations are corrupt everywhere particularly in consideration of the original Hebrew text, cultural meaning and time period. The same applies directly to references to Homosexuality. The term is incorrect throughout.

          • Sientje Seinen

            we dont think it is ridiculous why would you want to rape a girl if you had to pay her father and live with her for the rest of your life looking at her across the breakfast table and be reminded of your sins, great deterrent isnt it?

          • Kerrigan C

            Ok – you are twisted – now I’m done with this conversation.

          • Sientje Seinen

            great deterrent for you not to rape someone, especially if you have to marry her and atone for you sins the rest of your life.

          • Kerrigan C

            What a pathetic comment.

          • Sientje Seinen

            try to follow that and see if you like to pay the father and have her across from you at the table in the morning everyday where she can remind you of your stupidity and immorality. lol

          • Jafe in Texxizz

            The GRACE that is expressed in the New Testament has replaced the LAW that is expressed in the Old Testament. Part of the purpose of the Law was to show Man that he could NOT live a righteous life on his own…….. but that he needed grace.

          • Ed

            I agree. So I don’t see what the problem with Gay Marriage is, if they’re committed in Christ’s name, or are we still quoting Leviticus in THAT instance but ignoring everything else?

          • Rich

            Not just Leviticus… what about 1 Corinthians 5. I am not being antagonistic, I really want to know what to do about that? Paul uses the word “Porneia” – eluding to ALL sexual sin (not just the incest that was the specific). What do we do with 1 Timothy 1:8-10, Romans 8, Romans 1:18-28?

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            But you’ll have to help me out here Rich. Didn’t Christ Himself settle this debate many times over? Passages like:
            “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

            29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[g] There is no commandment greater than these.”

            32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

            34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”

          • Sientje Seinen

            Mercy is Christ an agent of sin As homosexuality is forbidden by God the father, and since Christ took on the wrath of G-d for same are you now suggesting it is okay to wilfully sin after knowing the truth that Christ suffered greatly for these sins to call us all to repentance.

          • Nicy

            Amen! Well said!

          • Rich

            BUT Exegetically, homosexuality is condemned in both the New Testament AND the Old Testament. Jesus even talked about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. We live in a culture that wants to deny the truth of Christ and yet claim to be Christians. I can understand non-Christians thinking this way, but did not Jesus call us to die to ourselves? Are we not more than just our sexuality? As a heterosexual single, the Bible is clear about not being involved in sexual relationships outside of marriage. Do I just disregard that because of “how God made me?” Jesus said that the world would know we are his disciples by two ways: If we love one another and if we obey his commands. Seems like too many people want the love part but not the Obedience part. If homosexuals want to do their thing, fine, but quit tying to force EVERY CHURCH to accept what is not orthodox!

          • Kerrigan C

            How is it that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is somehow a case of Sodomy and Homosexuality – when Lot OFFERED his DAUGHTERS to the towns folk/men in order to somehow protect the Angels from rape/being sodomized – in essence he was then offering his daughters up for the same….but it gets twisted into the off-base irrelevant teaching that the men were gay and wanted to rape the angels (which logically makes zero sense based on the relevance of male sexuality in general, which is predominantly heterosexual). Incidentally, heterosexuals have commonly practiced throughout history and still do. Hypocrisy after contradictions everywhere. This is not what Christ came to do.

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            And who said that what Lot did with his daughters, Kerrigan C., was right? Where in the Bible does it state to give ones daughters in place of men to a rabid, ravenous, slavering mob of men bent on rape and sexual assault? Where? Where does GOD condone such? And just because people havide (euphemisticorrect. Prenatal infanticide (euphemisticarrect. Prenatal infanticide (euphemistically called “abortion”) has been practiced long before it was made legal in the USA, as well, but that doesn’t make it correct or right. The Bible is clear that the men of Sodom wanted to know these angels sexually.

            Your logic concerning love fails. First, nobody is denying homosexuals the “right” to marry (more of a privilege than a right, seeing not everybody can get married). They may still marry. Nobody’s denying them love. Nobody’s denying them sexual expression. If they choose to marry the way GOD originally ordained marriage, there is all sorts of room for love and sexual expression. What you are advocating, Kerrigan C., is perversion and abuse.

          • Kerrigan C

            I think you’re having trouble reading or understanding what I wrote. Otherwise your comments make no sense. I’m not advocating anything – I’m pointing out that there is a direct contradiction in facts and circumstances. I’m advocating that people take a look at the fact that this had nothing to do with the men of the town wanting to know the angels sexually – as if they did, then it is atrocious that Lot would then offer his daughters for the same abuse in their place. The rest of what you say is as garbled as your understanding of what I wrote. Not sure where you were going with it at all.

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            Kerrigan C., here are your quotes………

            “How is it that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is somehow a case of Sodomy and Homosexuality – when Lot OFFERED his DAUGHTERS to the towns folk/men in order to somehow protect the Angels from rape/being sodomized – in essence he was then offering his daughters up for the same….”

            Your words here, Kerrigan C., attempt to offer some sort of cover for the men of Sodom that they weren’t after the angels, when the Bible is pretty clear………

            “But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, ‘Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.'”
            —Genesis xix. 4-5

            Jude, the brother of Jesus, even gets more detailed………

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
            —Jude i. 7

            You can try, Kerrigan C., to smokescreen and add confusion, but your words were pretty clear: that the men of Sodom couldn’t have been wanting the angels in a homosexual manner because Lot offered his daughters, but that is simply ludicrous (as the two Scripture passages I have offered clearly show), and my questions to you in my initial reply to you are geared towards that.

            You also, I might add, stated that heterosexuals have practiced sodomy as if this, too ,were some sort of cover, as well, for the men of Sodom………

            “Incidentally, heterosexuals have commonly practiced ‘sodomy’ willingly throughout history and still do.”

            Again, my statements about prenatal infanticide (also called “abortion) and my questions again give the lie to these statements. so what if heterosexuals have practiced sodomy for eons and still do? Does that make it right and good in the sight of the LORD? Men and women have also been robbing banks for centuries, as well: does that make bank robbing okay?

            Feel free to answer these questions since you didn’t earlier.

          • Kerrigan C

            You clearly have no idea what I’m saying and that will be clear to anyone that reads the comments. Reading comprehension is not your forte – you’re attempting to side-step the contractions I am raising and the facts are the facts. I’ve been abundantly clear – I don’t need your sermon….I’ve heard it all before and I am pointing out the idiocy of the situation. Read Ezekiel 16:49. You are just spouting out more of the same rhetoric that you’ve heard from other mouths your whole life. Start thinking.

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            You’re raising contractions?

            And, no, Ma’am, I’ve already answered your questions. Nobody’s trying to confuse you………at least, nobody who’s replying to you. And I am thinking and do think, but thank you for bringing up a personal smear anyway. Seems that is all you can do, Kerrigan C., is name-call, slander, and slather with a acerbic mind. I’ll let you continue. But you do need to read what the Bible states clearly about the Angels’ visit to Sodom and Lot’s house. I’d also suggest reading about the actions of the men of the City of Gibeah as found in the Book of Judges, and what happened to them.

            GOD bless yo uand have a wonderful week….

          • Kerrigan C

            Oh, you are such a smarty-panties Mr. Lovelace!!! Look at you pointing out a grammatical error!!! Go on then….keep it up!

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            Actually, to be fair, Kerrigan C., it wasn’t a grammatical error, but a spelling error (see? I DO comprehend what I read!). And, once again, you opened this can of worms by smearing my reading comprehension and then telling me to learn to think. A bit of free advice, Ms. Kerrigan: next time you assault someone’s education or thinking abilities, make sure you check your spelling first before clicking the “Post as…” button. And calling me “smarty-panties” is something my junior high school students wouldn’t even do, although I DO appreciate the “Mr. Lovelace”.

            Have a blessed week, once again….

          • Kerrigan C

            Glad to know you’re reading what I’m writing! Can’t say the same here…got as far as your first sentence…

          • Kerrigan C

            IF you have students today, it’s a shame their teacher has such limited viewpoints. It would be very said to be a homosexual student in one of your classes knowing how their “teacher” felt about them. Not everyone is meant to teach. But I’ll leave that in God’s hands to deal with. The man that should teach, is the one that listens with his heart and teaches in kind – and not via judgmental foundation.

          • ppp777

            Your view is totally distorted and filled with sentimentality and not one bit of truth .

          • Kerrigan C

            How is that exactly?

          • ppp777

            I may of miss read your post , I read so much homosexual propaganda now that mistake happen , anyway Sodom is sanomanous with the word sodomy although all sorts of aborchary happened then and the book of Jude indicates that , it is no wonder lot said what he said and of course the sexual accounts of lots daughters with their father , like someone once said ” you can get the person out of Sodom but you can’t get the Sodom out of the person .

          • Kerrigan C

            Garbledy-bobledy…gook! OpI copertopainlopy hopaty thopat youpoty copany ropead opand opundoperstopand thopis topoo! 🙂

          • ppp777

            Yeah right , too true .

          • Sientje Seinen

            you are not too bright right, as lot knew they were homosexuals and were not interested in women but those men who were his guests. Christ shed His blood for everyone whom is sorry and repents of their sinfull ways, otherwise you are just mocking Christ great suffering on Calvary, It is your and my sins that has put Him on the cross and it is by asking forgiveness in Christ’s name that we receive forgiveness and grace, solely because of Christ’s redemptive work why do you suppose He told the adulteress, “Go and sin No more? Notice that Christ sealed the new covenant with His blood, Jeremiah 31 vere 31, as without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

          • Rose Pappas

            Lot had lived so long in the corruption around him that offering his daughters to protect his guests was an act of desperation. that just sort of seemed normal. it is called getting desensitized to evil. after witnessing the traumatic destruction, the two daughters thought that the world had ended, and nobody was left but them, so, it just seemed normal for them to seduce their father, because after all, they had to repopulate the world. desperate situations sometimes produce desperate and foolish actions

          • Michelle Bowen

            I agree with you and that is why I am still a virgin at age 33! I have never been with a man, and I will never be until marraige. Its not easy to find a man who views this…as a good thing. BUT I don’t allow my sexual needs to draw me into that trap of man. My legs remain crossed and I remain virtuous. I’m not claiming i am perfect, but I made a promise and I will keep it. God gave me so much asking me to wait till mairrage is nothing.

            Humans are so consumed with their own needs, we often forget the one true need we have is in God and his love. A person claiming to be a Christian and then turning on the word of God is not a true Christian they lie because they do not want to hear “I’m not a Christian’ come from their lips because in the back of theri minds they fear hell! In the back of his mind he came up with this book about how hell isn’t real! O_O Seriously twisted person. Oprah has always been questionalbe in my eyes. I never understood why anyone liked her.

          • ppp777

            Well I hope you find someone soon , but like someone advised me once , ” don’t wait too long . ” there is a time and a season “

          • Rutger Lindens

            Did Jesus explicitly say what the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was? Hint: Ezekiel 16:49

          • Les Healy

            Rutger Lindens…dont twist scripture, you forgot v 50 ‘…50 and they were haughty and committed abomination before Me. Therefore I took them away as I saw good.’ abomination a CLEAR reference to sexual sin, in particular homosexuality…want advise DO NOT add to or take away from God’s Word…Rev 22

            18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

            19 Andif any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book.

          • John_33

            Add Jude 1:7 to that:

            “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

          • freddy

            You forgot verse 50 dude ! They were haughty and did detestable things before me

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            Judges 1.7

          • Sientje Seinen

            lolol of course pride and dont gays have gay Pride parades isnt that pride on their part to be mocking Christ suffering and going against nature?

          • eagleflyfree

            Nice comment. Don’t forget that Sodom (root word of sodomy) and Gomorrah were destroyed before the law was established. Why? Their sin went against the laws of nature and creation so, therefore God destroyed them.

          • Sunnysmom

            Truth is, they’re not trying force every (or any really) church to accept anything. You just don’t get the right to deny them a marriage certificate in a secular society. We are not a theocracy. I respect the churches’ rights to not hold services in their buildings, but you cannot deny them the right to be married in our society.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Rich I understand that desire and longing for righteousness, believe me I really do. The problem is that Jesus himself spent well over 70% of His ministry here on earth trying to teach and demonstrate that righteousness without love, compassion and grace as the motive is a pathway to death because it’s the heart and character of the person that He is trying to redeem (not the religious practice of sanctification as was the belief of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law). A failure to understand the HEART of God while keeping the COMMAND of God misses the whole point. Does this mean we abandon the pursuit of righteousness? No. But when the pursuit of righteousness (whether in our own eyes OR in the eyes of those whom God sends to help us refine our character) becomes our identity MORE than our love, compassion and grace. We no longer represent the same Christ who came into this world.

          • Rich

            I couldn’t agree with you more. My struggle is how to reconcile love and grace with accountability? What do we do with 1 Corinthians 5? What do we do with what Dietrich Bonhoeffer identifies as “Cheap Grace” as compared to “Costly Grace”? What is more, again, as a heterosexual single male, I (and all humanity) are more than just our sexuality. As a Christian constrained by both love AND Obedience, I am called to die to myself – which includes my sexual desires that are outside the guidelines given in both the Old AND the New Testament. Jesus said there are TWO ways that the world would know we are Christians: By our love for each other AND if we obey his commands. This is the most difficult thing to do when finding the balance, but this does not presuppose that just because I disagree with someone’s choices, I do not love them. My kids do things regularly that are not “good” or “wise” choices and as a loving parent, I need to let them know why it is not wise or good, but I still love them. Again, my “qualm” is not with non-believers living or acting like “non-believers”. My tension comes in when, just as I have to make decisions about my sexuality and obedience, shouldn’t other (all) believers have to do the same? The biggest problem out of this is we no longer want to call “sin” by it’s name and when we do this, we make Christ’s death on the cross less than it was – a payment (atonement) for sin. I am also fine with “civil unions” but I am not fine with a conscientious Covenant Marriage in a homosexual decision. For my own conscience, I won’t even do a marriage if one person is a believer and the other is not! This is more about the covenant context of a “Church” wedding and not even about homosexuality. I know people are arguing that “Ordained clergy cannot be force to do homosexual marriages,” but as a concept becomes more and more embraced, are we to believe that those of us who chose not to do Covenant Marriages of homosexuals will really be tolerated or won’t it be more likely that, as we already have been, we will be labeled as “bigots” or worse? It is called setting a precedent.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            These are all very valid concerns and questions my friend – and I’d be lying if I didn’t say that some of them are indeed areas I’ve meditated and pondered upon myself. I hate to admit it when another person’s glib interpretation of Scripture surpasses my own ”intellectual” and heart felt search, but one friend remarked to me: ”You know Matt, at the end of the day, you can’t escape a basic struggle we all face –> Does Christ’s love & grace demand that you submit even your obedience and sanctification to Him, OR, does Christ’s righteous glory demand that even your love & grace submit to the obedience of God? I pondered this question many a night, with many a spiritual guide, and over many a heart felt battle… The end result (well maybe not end, but rather my current resolution)? That there seems to be a greater emphasis by NT writers that even our obedience & sanctification must be obedient to the love & Grace of Christ. AND IF THIS IS SO then I have no choice but to deny my own need for right-ness and righteousness and place my faith in hope that Christ was being truthful when He says: ”So as you have loved the LEAST of these, you have loved ME.” Whereas I’ve yet to come across a passage that would indicate that my obedience to His commandment (that I may or may not have in proper context and understanding) is of greater importance than my love towards Him and those whom I come into contact with….

          • Alexita

            where dose it say in the law was replaced?

          • lynn

            Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
            Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

          • Ed

            Paul, specifically.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Amazingly concise and well said.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Amazingly concise and well said.

          • don

            Ed at least come up with something close to believable

          • Ed

            I said the black and white. We don’t do those things because they’re abhorrent.

          • Guest

            You must have missed the entire New Testament then.

          • Jay Mark

            You do not understand the Bible. You should read it.

          • http://standingforhim.wordpress.com/ Jason Lovelace

            Ed, you’ve got it wrong. First, it is executing punishment upon kids that rebel — the death sentence coming as a last resort. Second, slavery is not condoned in the Bible. Is it allowed? Yes, it is, just as divorce for any means is, also, but slavery is not condoned. Thirdly, again, we are speaking of punishment for those who committed adultery (and prostitution and unbelievers and apostates — all considered national security issues by GOD for the Israelite Nation [and they are such for us today, as well]), and Jesus in John gives us his response to such (he does the same in Matthew 5). now, when Jesus the Messiah states that he came to fulfill the law, as is recorded in Matthew 5, what does that say abut execution of punishment? He essentially took the execution part out of peoples’ hands and took it upon himself. One day, Ed, we will be judged by GOD (see Revelation 20) and HE will execute sentence upon those who have failed to repent and believe on Jesus the Christ. We are in an age of grace, THE age of grace, but those verses in the OId Testament that you loosely refer to are the examples of GOD’s attitude towards sin. Like it or not, believe it or not, there is still a Sentence of Death concerning sin.

          • Sientje Seinen

            that was to show God anger at sin and also his mercy and justice when people acknowledge Him as Lord of all creation.

          • Conservative seer

            Please read the new testament and learn who Jesus Christ is

        • Sunnysmom

          What Ed said..lol If you count those things as part of the infallible word of God, please explain why it’s rhetoric and therefore an unfair question to discuss as it pertains to the issue same-sex marriage?

          • BlakeG

            On the issue of slavery in the Bible:
            In Matthew 19:3-10, the Pharisees came to Jesus, attempting to trap Him with questions about the Old Law. They asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?” Jesus informed them that divorce was not in God’s plan from the beginning. Thinking they had trapped Him, they inquired: “Why, then, did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce and to put her away?” If it was in the Old Law, they suggested, then it must be God’s ideal will. But Jesus’ answer quickly stopped that line of thinking. He responded:

            Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.

            Jesus’ point was crystal clear—some things permitted in the Old Testament did not necessarily represent the ideal. Due to the hardness of ancient Israel’s heart, God tolerated (and regulated) some things under the Old Law that He did not endorse. As He did so, however, He progressively revealed His divine will to mankind, clarifying that will more fully through Christ.

            Many of the injunctions found in the Old Testament pertaining to slavery fall into the category of regulating something that was “less than ideal.” Even in the Old Testament, God desired that all people love their neighbors as themselves (Leviticus 19:18). Yet, in a time when God used the children of Israel as His arm of justice to punish evildoers, certain questions arose. What was to be done, for example, with the survivors of those wicked nations? What was to be done with a man who was so far in debt that he could not repay his lender? These issues, and others like them, necessitated that God institute some form of humane regulations for “slavery.”

            Often, those who attack the Bible skirt the real crux of the slavery issue. They point to verses in the Old Testament that offer a particular regulation for slavery. From there, they proceed to argue that the Bible is a vile book that does not condemn, but actually condones slavery. And, they argue, since all slavery is morally wrong, the Bible must not be the product of a loving God.

            However, those who take such a position fail to consider that certain types of slavery are not morally wrong. For instance, when a man is convicted of murder, he often is sentenced to life in prison. During his life sentence, he is forced by the State to do (or not do) certain things. He is justly confined to a small living space, and his freedoms are revoked. Sometimes, he is compelled by the State to work long hours, for which he does not receive even minimum wage. Would it be justifiable to label such a loss of freedom as a type of slavery? Yes, it would. However, is his loss of freedom a morally permissible situation? Certainly. He has become a slave of the State because he violated certain laws that were designed to ensure the liberty of his fellow citizen, whom he murdered. Therefore, one fact that must be conceded by anyone dealing with the Bible and its position on slavery is the fact that, under some conditions, slavery is not necessarily a morally deplorable institution.

            In light of the fact that God loves all sinners, including those who practice homosexuality, it is clear that Christians should have the same attitude as God. Christians who are following the example of their Lord Jesus Christ love homosexuals and want what is the very best for them. Loving Christians point out that homosexuality is a sin— not to be homophobic or mean-spirited— but because each and every soul is important. They do not want anyone to be lost. If homosexuality is a sin, and a person will be lost if he or she does not repent, then the only loving course of action is to kindly and gently explain this fact in the hopes that those who are sinning will repent and get to live forever in heaven with their God and Creator.

          • Sientje Seinen

            people forget that God chose a nation for Himself whom He wishes to serve Him, He chose the Israelites whom called out to Him while in slavery and He heard their cry, Christ also has called us to leave our sinfull nature and listen to His voice, so that we become one people in faith and worship, but since some harden their hearts and not all heed the Word of God, there are the sons of disobedience and the children of obedience, whom Christ aids in becoming children of the Living God, whom protects those whom are of His sheep and obey His voice. This is the reason Christ said “many are called but few are chosen” as one cannot come to God the father on their own, but first must believe He exists and come to Him in faith.

          • Kerrigan C

            Stick to knitting….keeps the mouth shut and the mind and fingers better occupied than yours on a keyboard.

          • Kerrigan C

            WOW….the people in this forum are unbelievable. I don’t know what CHRISTianity you subscribe to – but it absolutely is repulsive and the 11 up-votes tells me exactly the types of people we’re dealing with here. The way you justify everything is incredible. Alright then….I’m off to buy a prison slave …. just not a homosexual one…that would be an abomination and morally wrong.

            Shakes head in absolute amazement…

        • Sientje Seinen

          you reject Christ’s suffering on Calvary where He paid the price for the sins of the flesh, so that they could repent and return to the Lord God by acknowledging that through Christ they can be saved and healed from their lusts.

      • Oboehner

        Sure thing.

    • Liya

      Yeah yeah… Your godless ilk, Oboehner, fought for slavery and segregation with more fervor… Now you believe that you can hold on to your homophobia. Sure, talk to KKK. Heartless people like you will die out soon enough

      • Oboehner

        Sure race compares to a perverted lifestyle choice, perhaps you should exit feel-good fantasyland and attend the real world.

        • MisterPine

          There’s little more perverted than an evangelical’s take on homosexuality.

          • Oboehner

            A man putting his privates into the orifice that another man poops out of is really nice, right?

          • MisterPine

            Is it nicer for you when a man does it with a woman? Which happens far more often, I should add.

            Also, how do you know all homosexual men do this?

          • Sientje Seinen

            they call it love, but may the Lord be mercifull to you and your friends for such revolting behaviour.

          • MisterPine

            And what on earth are you talking about now? When did I say I engaged in sodomy, or that any of my friends did?

            No one calls a specific sexual practice “love”. You and Oboehner must be smoking the same substance.

          • Kerrigan C

            And you call yourself a Christian? You should be ashamed of your debased self. I’m disgusted with you and your comments. You embarrass those that truly follow the love of Christ.

          • Oboehner

            I’m not the one pushing perversion.

          • Kerrigan C

            Yet you are the one speaking with gutter like perverted words and innuendo that is revolting and quite disturbing regardless of your position in this. Pray about your tongue.

          • Oboehner

            You seem to like revolting as homosexuality certainly qualifies. Pray about your blatant disregard for the Word of God.

          • Kerrigan C

            It’s the words you write that I have blatant, sincere disregard for.

          • Sientje Seinen

            he is telling the truth,and we are to speak the truth with one another, maybe you can call it something else, but the truth is stil the same, are you naive or something?

          • Kerrigan C

            Then fellowship with him and stop wasting my time.

          • MisterPine

            No, you are looking only at the sexual practices you choose to and ignoring the love these people feel for one another, which is no different than your own (except that gay people don’t attempt to stop your straight relationships).

          • Sientje Seinen

            well he puts it bluntly but why dont you admit this is what homosexual actually do and call it love?

          • Kerrigan C

            From twisted minds come twisted words. You’ve once again proven your nature here. I will continue to pray for you – that you would support his words is unreal regardless of your personal opinions. You should find a place in the gutter to pray together over what you have said and continue to put forward here.

          • MisterPine

            They don’t call it love, love is what happens when two people are attracted to one another. It is you who is obsessing over what goes on in private. Is that fair? Would you wish to have your relationship identified only by what you do in your bedroom?

    • Kerrigan C

      These discussions always leave me in such confused, sad “disenlightenment” ….the heavy stance against homosexuality and what I’m hearing here being stated by many, as not being supported by Christians and Christianity has me perplexed in this day and age.

      I’m hoping the most educated of you in God’s word, might please respond to some of why I find it all so contrary to where we are today with respect to some issues, yet not this one. Some complex teachings have since fallen away based on times and translation, cultural acceptance, etc., it would seem….yet others remain and are used to ostracize an entire section of humanity from God’s love and acceptance in the minds of many in the Church congregation. In fact, in many places in the world, this thinking leads to execution of gays for no reason other than who they are. And who is to say the God did not create them that way? One day, I have to wonder if a loving God won’t make his position known for those that have contributed to this exclusionary thinking that has led and continues to lead to unthinkable atrocities around the world. This is not just an issue of marriage in my mind…

      But I digress….here are some of things I can’t get past in this by the book (so it seems) thinking (forgive the irony included – it is definitely used for impact and to generate deeper thinking and further discussion of the issues at hand):

      Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

      When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

      I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

      I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

      Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

      I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

      A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

      Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

      Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

      I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

      My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

      I know some of you feel you have studied these things extensively, so I am confidently asking you to consider your position and respond to the other issues that clearly have changed in the congregation and teachings through time and cultural enlightenment.

      To me, this is a clear demonstration that God’s word is eternal – and changing – based on the interpretation(s) of man, his translations and the cultural times in which we live.

      If we follow the main law of Christ – that we LOVE one another – then how can that direction be in any way exclusionary of any person in God’s eyes. Something tells me, there are many that have a spec in their own eye and a blemish in their heart that needs healing.

      One day, God’s word will be known to all – and to those that open their hearts to Christ’s love, there can be no exclusion where love is concerned.

      I look forward to help in understanding why I should want to celebrate remaining a Christian, if Christianity in fact seems to teach the opposite (at least according to some of you that appear to rely on relics in scripture for some things, yet not for others) – things that clearly do not demonstrate Christ’s love and the reason for his sacrifice. I have to wonder if Jesus would be excited to be a part of this type of thinking and welcome it in his flock. I guess one day we will all know, but for now, I look forward to greater understanding from those of you that truly do confuse me.

      • Alex.k.s

        Every example you give is from the Old Testament. The New Testament is a new covenant with humanity. Don’t refer to Leviticus, refer instead to Corinthians 6:9-10, or Romans 1:26-27.

        > If we follow the main law of Christ – that we LOVE one another – then how can that direction be in any way exclusionary of any person in God’s eyes.

        Nobody should hate homosexuals, they are humans as much as any person and their affairs are between themselves and God alone, and if you hate them you yourself don’t walk with God; but that doesn’t mean we should accept or embrace the act of sodomy, any more than we should embrace drug addiction or violence.

        Additionally, from a secular standpoint, homsexuality isn’t great for health or social cohesion, and granting homosexuals a protected minority status presents a host of problems. Homosexuals should be granted the ability to form civil unions separate from marriage, the same as any two individuals of any persuasion should be.

        • Kerrigan C

          This post is addressed elsewhere.

          • Sientje Seinen

            because they go against what the Lord God has ordained, for them to honour their parents and most parents do love to have grandchildren and how are we to teach our children to honour their parents, when they consists of two men or two women, it is a rebellion against the Lord whom made your country prosperous and if we mock Him, then surely the Lord God will take away His blessings from the country and people also.

          • Kerrigan C

            I certainly hope, that if you are so blessed to have children, that your nature is more loving than what you’re putting out on this forum.

          • Sientje Seinen

            and why tell me do you think my nature isnt loving? now you are judging me and you dont even know me, What do you think is happening in America right now, you cant see the forest for the trees, Do you not know the things happening in America is for you to repent and give praise and glory to the Lord God, as the Lord cannot bless something that He has forbidden. so pray for the sake of the people of America that they will repent of making laws which are against the laws the Lord gave to us to heed, as His wisdom is greater than ours. repent and learn to love the Lord God with all your heart, mind and soul and do not give way to the devil.

          • Kerrigan C

            Why would I tell you something you clearly can’t understand? Keep up your “good” works.

        • Sientje Seinen

          their affairs are not between them and God alone, as God cannot walk with sin and turn His back on those whom do not harken to His Word and repent of their lustfull desires of lusting after the same gender, It is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.

      • SMDobbins

        Kerrigan, you certainly have given this some thought. I am impressed that you name the scriptures and give an example of how it would fit. But, as Alex says, those rules follow the Old Testament. When Jesus came he established a new covenant not dependent on “the Law” but on his atonement. He came because God knew there was no way we could follow “the Law (rules)” perfectly.

        • Kerrigan C

          Precisely – I couldn’t agree with you more; thus, why do Christians consistently use the Old Testament to condemn their gay brothers and sisters? What did Jesus say about any of this? When did Jesus turn away and condemn anyone as greater or less than another? Whose words are used to perpetuate the segregation of homosexuals from the greater good of the Church. For that, is exactly what right-wing Christians do. And in doing so, they have ostracized an entire section of society. Christ must weep.

          • SMDobbins

            My way of understanding this, and I have struggled for years….is free choice. God created us with free choice. That means that each gets to decide how they will live. We can live our way, or we can choose to follow the things God has set forth as beneficial to society and this world.

          • Kerrigan C

            This may (by how I’m reading it) assume a couple of things: 1) that homosexuality is a choice and not created by God – what gay person would willfully choose a path of struggle, bullying and hatred from their peers, family and religion of their own free will?!!

            and; 2) that homosexuality is not within God’s plan – the remaining condemnation based in the Laws of the Old Testament and not of Christ’s words (and or of mis-translations of text throughout the ages based on cultural norms and acceptance) – which takes us back to where this started. Did you know that the term “homosexual” did not even exist in the times of Christ as the people did not identify as living a homosexual lifestyle. The fact that it is in the bible is in itself its own dichotomy.

            Last, if there is an implication that Homosexuals are not beneficial to society or this world, I am sure a significant population that has had the joy to grace this world since its creation, would differ greatly with that opinion. Certainly, the world would be a very different place indeed without the beauty of what they have offered and continue to offer today.

            The research is readily available but Michelangelo is one and you wouldn’t be able to read this post on your PC because the father of modern computer science, Alan Turing, was gay. Somehow, I think they were a part of God’s plan.

          • Sientje Seinen

            dont you ever think that satan is just as much in control on the internet with porn sites and people hacking into accounts, so what are you trying to say that the internet is pure and clean. Just because someone invented technology doesnt mean they were free from sin or beleived in a loving God, as satan can transform himself into an angel of light Did Christ not tell us to Watch?

          • Kerrigan C

            Ok…you just lost me – and you proved something now….either you are a bit of a whack job – you comment is completely bizarre and demonstrates a bizarre personality – I won’t be reading or responding to any more of your posts. Have a good night!!

          • Michelle Bowen

            Matthew 19:1-8 — Did Jesus say anything about homosexuality? Of course, when asked about marriage, Jesus issued a sweeping condemnation of all sexual relationships outside of the male/female model established in Gen 1:27, which he specifically cited. new testimant ….HELLO!

          • Kerrigan C

            And yet another “pending” comment to be approved….lol. Michelle, are you a moderator?

          • Sientje Seinen

            well Michelle that is why He was sent to do the will of God to call people to repentance just because people were divorcing because as Christ said of their hardness of heart, doesnt mean Christ condoned any sin, just He gave His life for us to repent and live according to the will of God, not to our own pleasures.

          • mike

            the new testament condemns homosexuality. read romans 1. the answer is there.

          • Kerrigan C

            I replied to this a day ago and yet the comment still is not posted. You’re wrong here. But apparently the moderator doesn’t want my point and analysis to be made public.

          • mike

            what i stated is absolutely true. Romans 1 condemns homosexuality. read it for yourself. you may have a point to make and that is fine but to say that romans 1 does not condemn homosexuality is simply a false statement. no one could come away from that scripture with any other thought.

          • Kerrigan C

            You’re wrong. If the moderator approves my comment you can respond to that. It remains pending a day later.

          • mike

            please post the response again.

          • Kerrigan C

            There is no point. The responses go straight to pending….and the moderator will not post. It appears that they do not want certain arguments raised that point out contradicting view points. The response is still sitting in pending now.

          • Sientje Seinen

            Of course it is pending as it is a lie, which you will be judged for when you appear before the throne of God, unless you repent of twisting the Word of God.

          • Kerrigan C

            I am prepared for that – I certainly hope you are too.

          • Sientje Seinen

            lol why am I not surprised as it probably does not even come close to what the holy scriptures teaches and exhorts us daily

          • Sientje Seinen

            you are wrong, Romans chapter one says “God gave them up to practice the evil desires of the flesh” so God has given you over to satan to be ensnared by him to do his will, who is the father of lies.

          • Kerrigan C

            The Father of all Lies is doing a fantastic job of speaking through you – your day will come.

          • Sientje Seinen

            lol just because I dont subscribe to your views. maybe you like to be a monkey and subscribe to evolution, but I dont, why not read where the Lord Jesus called those whom didnt believe on His Word, spawns of satan?

          • Kerrigan C

            You are a sad woman.

          • Kerrigan C

            If anyone is a monkey here, it’s you – capable of thinking as far as only what you’ve been taught. Perhaps you are indeed evidence of a lack of evolution – certainly you remain in the dark ages with your thinking. See where that gets you as the world continues to evolve. Now – back to knitting, Sientje!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            Christ does mention that some will harden their hearts to His Word, and deny that He is the redeemer of mankind to reconcile us to the Lord God with Him sealing the new covenant with His blood, Jeremiah 31 verse 31, stay in your own ignorance, you have been advised so you have no excuse when you appear before the throne of the Lord God,for mocking Christ suffering on calvary.

          • Sientje Seinen

            lol and just maybe you and your ilk are trying to evolve the world back to the midievil ages where homosexuality was rampant and when spoken out against it, the christians were thrown to the lions. shame on you for condoning wickedness

          • Kerrigan C

            Yopu opeare opea copeumplopete opidopiopit!!! Opeone dopeay Jopesopus wopeill sopet yopeu opeand yopeour kopeind stropeaight. Thopeank yopeu lopeord fopeor yopeour gropoeace opas thopis wopeomopean opeis opea cropeazopey nout jopeob!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            there you go, evolving back to the baby stage with your gooble gook, etc. lol

          • Sientje Seinen

            because you are contradicting the Holy scriptures, you are not to add to the Holy scriptures or take away from them, the moderator is wise enough to know this, since you are not.

          • Sientje Seinen

            of course not, your comments make no sense, you only twist the Holy scriptures to your own liking better read revelation 22 verse 18 and 19, where God warns about these things.

          • jmichael39

            While some Christians take it to point of condemning people for their sins…including that of the sin of homosexual behavior…most do not. But condemning and judging are two completely different stories. We are commanded in the NT to judge right from wrong and to lovingly and respectfully approach our brothers and sisters when we see them in sin. If they refuse to repent, then we bring them to the elders. If they still refuse to repent, then we bring to the congregation. If they still refuse to repent then we remove them from our fellowship.
            Now, what IS repentance? In its simplest form it begins with a changing of the mind…an acceptance that what you’re doing is a sin…or wrong. Then the process begins of changing the behavior itself. So long as a brother or sister is engaged in the process of repenting of their sins…even the sin of homosexual behavior…then we are not to remove them from our fellowship. BUT it is afforded us wisdom about whether or not to remove them from leadership pending affirmative victory over that sin. I’ve seen churches go both ways with equal success.
            To better understand the Old Testament, you have to understand that the entire concept of the Old Covenant was that it was God’s people essentially telling God they want His blessings, but they don’t want to engage in a personal relationship with Him (as Adam and Eve had. They just wanted to know what they absolutely had to do to appease Him. So He gave them His rules.
            There are two or more ways of looking at the various OT laws. One, as with the concept of divorce, God didn’t ever really want it to happen. Jesus tells us this in the Gospels. But, because of the hardness of the people’s hearts, God agreed and provided them the rules for doing it. It doesn’t mean God liked it, but He bore with it. You could probably apply this same principle to the laws about slavery and selling children and so on. It wasn’t that God approved, but He approached as, “if you’re gonna do it, at least do this.”
            And two, some laws have to be seen from an eternal perspective. For example, the stoning of gays or children who rebel. God reveals through those laws what HE will eventually do to those living in unrepentant sin. To my understanding, when Christ came, His death and resurrection freed us from such rules. We had a new commission…actually restoration of humanity’s original commission…to bring the good news of God’s saving grace to all. The time of literally killing people for their sins was over. It was time to bring people to the saving knowledge of Jesus. That’s our commission now. Included in that commission is for us to bring our brethren to an understanding of God’s forgiveness.
            Its not that God has changed His mind about what is sin and what isn’t. It is a matter of what He requires His people to do about it when we see these sins. One of the chief arguments by those who think we should now accept homosexuality as being okay is that we obviously are no longer to stone homosexuals. Well, just because God has changed the earthly consequences for a sin doesn’t mean He no longer considers it a sin.

          • Kerrigan C

            We are so far away in thinking that I almost didn’t respond to this. Jesus came to forgive ALL of us of our sins – ultimately sin destroys and the Father literally wanted to wipe out humanity due to their ignorance and continuing harm of one another – by not operating through love from the start (Cane/Abel, etc., etc.). In order to ALLOW us a place in the beauty of His creation, He sent His son to DIE for us (as he understood our struggles during his time here in His Human state. Only because of the blood of Christ, are we allowed to continue until His return. His prior Law was forgiven as it was impossible for us to comply with. FORGIVE one another, ACCEPT one another – LOVE one another. The analysis of things that are not remotely possible to comply with make no sense other than for man to raise himself up over another – and that judgment, will be mete in full reward.

          • jmichael39

            Unfortunately, most people stop with God’s forgiveness. Forgiveness simply places us in a position whereby we can, again, be free to live ABOVE that law. The sad thing is that most think that God’s forgiveness equates to him changing His mind about sin and about His what He considers to be sin. Christ’s response to the woman caught in adultery is highly revealing. While not condemning either her or those who wanted to stone her, He offered the example of the proper approach…..mercy and exhortation to sin no more. He never authorized us to continue in sin since God was kind enough to forgive us.
            Paul continues this line of think I Romans chapters 5-8.
            Jesus also gave directions, and Paul expounded on those directions, on how to deal with those who refuse to repent of sin.

          • Kerrigan C

            Apples/Oranges. Adultery is harmful as it breaches trust and harms relationships – of individuals and of families/children should they so be related.

            Relationships built upon love and trust are not remotely comparable regardless of sexual orientation.

            The interpretation of homosexuality is wrong on all counts. The concept did not exist – why would it specifically be addressed with respect to marriage when two men or two women wanting the same were not even culturally conceived?

            Those that stand in knowledge that does not remotely apply to current cultural and time references prove only that they are ignorant an seek not to understand other than what they themselves perceive as foreign to their own inclination….and so it is easily categorized as sin.

            Regardless of our difference of opinion – Jesus came to FULFILL the law and his death is forgiveness and fulfillment of all that matters.

            To continuously point fingers and disallow others their right to love is not of Christ’s teachings.

            We are all sinners. That is the whole point of Christ’s mission. To ignore that, simply puts you back in the dark ages – prior to Christian joy, love and freedom.

          • Sientje Seinen

            He never said “accept one another, He told those whom followed Him and listened to His voice to “love one another as I have loved you” why are you not quoting the whole passage? How did Christ love us, He gave His life for us on the cross, and I am sure you are not willing to give your life for me, or anyone who doesnt agree with you.

          • mike

            by the way saying that a particular thing is wrong is not saying that someone is greater or lesser. if i tell my son he is wrong for disobeying me that is not saying he is lesser. that is not even unloving. i am amazed that we have come to the point that when someone says a particular practice is wrong that that is equal to hatred.

          • Kerrigan C

            Exclusion and pointing fingers and telling someone they are a sinner breeds hatred and takes people away from the Church and Christ’s loving forgiveness… I’m not sure what is surprising (although I certainly haven’t said anything regarding hatred so I’m not sure where that is coming from here. The Westboro Baptist Church is an excellent example of hatred.

          • mike

            telling a person that they are a sinner does not breed hatred. Christ said to the woman caught in the act of adultery go and “sin” no more. when Paul preached in Acts he told the people that they crucified Christ. instead of those people hating Paul it says they were cut to the heart and said what must we do. Paul said repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. There is no need for Christ if there are no sinners. Helping a person see that they are indeed a sinner is necessary in order for them to see their need of a Savior. the majority of people that speak to sin and the sinner are not doing it with malice or evil intent. they have a true concern for people. granted there are people like westboro but that does not change the truth about sin and sinners.

          • Kerrigan C

            I think you’re missing the point completely. I’ll try to be more clear. When Christians through their ignorant understanding of biblical condemnation of Homosexuality, tell Homosexuals that their very human sexuality (that they have been created with – NOT that they choose) is an abomination in the sight of God, they are rejecting their very essence and spirit and making the person that is the target of that disdain feel less than they are – both in the eyes of their family – as well as their peers and even according to those that perpetuate such ignorance, the eyes of God. Imagine yourself in the same place as a heterosexual, being told that you must go and be gay as God tells you so – that if you act on your essence, you are a horrible sinner and must repent and constantly try to change who you are. THAT, my friend, breeds disdain, hatred (of self and those that constantly refuse equal rights and sit in a position of self-righteousness condemnation…that person feels the rejection of what is being put upon them by the very people in the church that should love them. I don’t need to go into detail, but suicide is often the result particularly in young teens coming to terms. You have no idea what you’re saying. Jesus’ words come to mind “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”. Basically this continuing mess that is the position of right-wing evangelicals is damaging a significant section of society and forcing them away from the Church and those that should love them. it’s easy to sit there and judge something you have no idea about as you don’t live it. And for that, there will be equal judgment provided to those that dish it out. Of that, I’m sure.

          • mike

            those thoughts and opinions are all well and good but you are missing the point. my point has been to point out what scripture states explicitly. how someone responds to scripture is one thing but it doesn’t change the truth of God’s word. there is no biblical misunderstanding of what the bible says concerning the sexual sin of homosexuality. we all are born with a sin nature as the scripture clearly tells us. we will sin in a variety of ways. as a matter of fact Christ says that if we sin in one point we have sinned in all points. we are simply guilty before a Holy God of being sinners. no way to reconcile with God on our own. Christ came in order to be our sin substitute and take the wrath due us. when we respond to that in repentance and faith God reconciles us with Himself. He sees the righteousness of Christ in those who are saved. There is a vast difference in telling someone that what they are doing is sinful based on the truth of scripture versus being mean spirited and unloving. it seems you are having a difficult time reconciling the truth of scripture with how you feel personally. many people have struggled with this. however, Christ addressed sinners and their sin. what if they said to Him God didn’t make me to be monogamous but to have many partners. Do you think that would fly with Christ? No! you cannot say that what i have pointed to in scripture does not say what it says. please read it for yourself. then tell me what you think it is saying.

          • Kerrigan C

            I replied to this…and it looks like it may once again not be posted….unreal.

            Incidentally, I agree with you – just not where homosexuality is concerned. It is mistranslation and homophobia that has resulted in the passages that people continue to rely upon in arrogance and ignorance because they do not seek to understand something that is foreign and repulsive to their nature and so is easy for them to condemn. That has been happening for centuries.

          • mike

            i am sorry but i do not agree with you. could you please show me what you think is the correct translation and where you got it. one other thing. i have had some good friends who were gay and i cared about them. enjoyed their company. one of them died from AIDS and it was a sad loss. and even though i still think about them with fondness it did not changed the truth that what they were doing was wrong. by the way i think of homosexual sin the same as i think of any other sexual sin. not picking them out and bashing them.

          • Kerrigan C

            Clearly we do not agree….but unfortunately I can’t get the posts through on the forum. They apparently stray from what this site wishes to project. As to your loss of your friends, I’m sorry for that. AIDS is not a gay disease. Quite clearly it is a worldwide issue and if you’re implying that it’s a result of homosexual behaviour – well I would feel sad for you – but do hope that isn’t the case. I’ll try posting a link – maybe that will make it through. You can read it – but frankly you’d have to do the research yourself as well. There are two schools of thought – yours (and those like you) – and mine and people that have found it necessary to delve deeply in order to see the light. Perhaps if you had a child (or someone exceptionally close to you, you would try a little harder to see things differently. In the meantime, blessings your way, sincerely now and always.

            Here’s an excellent article: www huffington post com/john-shore/the-best-case-for-the-bible-not-condemning-homosexuality_b_1396345.html

            And another:

            ourspiritnow . org/2009/04/more-testing-misues/

          • Sientje Seinen

            It is gay disease, plus a disease of people whom share needles, but unfortunately most male homosexuals dont live much past forty years of age.

          • Kerrigan C

            Your mind and words that are diseased….as you represent DIS-EASE in all you write. There is no love in anything you say…and this seems to be a common key with all the posts from “all of you” that you seem to think are right. And the reason you can’t see any other opinion – is because the moderator continues to deny the posts to the contrary of your sad opinions. But that damage, I’ll leave to you to be accountable for when your day arrives.

          • Sientje Seinen

            why would we want to understand something that the Lord God our father in heaven Abhors, and believes that they should not live, as their are an abomination in His eyes? If you are a child of God you would understand that you do not provoke the Lord God to anger, unless you are a spawn of satan, whom rebelled against the Lord and was thrown out of heaven coming down to earth having great wrath, whom Jesus has defeated at calvary. Repent

          • Kerrigan C

            Who IS this royal “WE”. Why do you presume to put forward that you are somehow a part of some elite club. Jesus would throw you out with this type of talk….just as he did others that operated in this arrogant self-righteous manner. I may not agree with you – but I certainly am not spending my night attempting to attack you – despite the fact the my human nature (not spiritual nature) would love to really have a go at you right now.

          • Kerrigan C

            I’m leaving this forum. It is dishonest – the various comments that I have made with exceeding research are all being held by the moderator in order to continue the presentation and slant intended. This is frankly quite disgusting. Comments supporting the slanted view of homosexuality as a sin and “because the bible says so” all remain, yet when I provide irrefutable evidence to the contrary, all of those posts are stopped – this clearly points out the fallacy of the minds here. It will have to be Christ that provides the work….that has always been the case; however, the people here continue on creating divisiveness and separation and for that there will be repercussions when the day comes. I leave a heavy heart. People need to research the original Hebrew text and see what it reveals. Instead, they would rather stand in homophobic nature, judging something that is not natural to them, and so something they can easily despise and deem sinful – because after all, today’s bible tells them so. God’s will, WILL be known. In the meantime, thank you Father for your grace and love.

          • Sientje Seinen

            It is a sin why cant you believe in your heart that you need the forgiveness of Christ by having sinned and not always lived according to the Word of God? why cant you humble yourself?

          • Kerrigan C

            If you weren’t just spewing garbage for your own interest, you would see that I have never said that we aren’t all sinners – I suggest you repent for the words you’ve written that are not of Christ – you are not somehow proving your Christianity tonight – at all.

          • Sientje Seinen

            If they have been created that way then they are spawns of satan as God told adam and eve in Genesis, 3 verse 14-15 “I will put enmity between thy seed and the seed of the woman, It shall bruise thy head and ye shall bruise its heel.” as God would not create someone homosexual and then make a law forbidding same, therefore it is not from God. dont you understand?So some of the soldiers hearing these Words, said “Truly He is the Son of God and acknowledged Christ as such.

          • Kerrigan C

            This is not the dark ages. And since we’re going to quote scripture so adequate, I think you should stop attempting to preach as you’re proving yourself a woman that should not do so as your words are embarrassing … I certainly hope that anyone that might have thought Christianity was a loving place to put their faith see that you are not a good representation of that – or of Christ’s unyielding loving grace. For anyone reading this – all Christians are not like this. Her words are twisted and not of Christ – I pray for her healing.

          • Sientje Seinen

            that is dumb we are all sinners, read the Bible as it tells you “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God,” but Christ came to call us to repentance and to as He said to the adulteress, “go and sin no More” what is so difficult to understand about this?

          • Kerrigan C

            Agreed. Now go and sin no more!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            okay I always confess my sin, in prayer every nite, I hope you also go and sin no more and give heed the voice of the Lord, and ask Him to create a clean spirit within you.

          • Kerrigan C

            Time to go do some crocheting or knitting now, Sientje….you have plenty of time to repent after that but I think you need to calm down. Getting yourself all riled up like this is exhausting – you should do something to relax before getting down on your knees and asking God to forgive you for the extremely judgmental nature you’ve put forward tonight.

          • Rich

            Romans 1, Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 5 (porneia) is used as a general term for sexual misconduct (both Romans 1 and 8 speak specifically to homosexuality). Believe it or not, I have homosexual friends and they know I love them, even though they know I disagree with them. I have a friend who is a homosexual but abstains, just as I do as an unmarried heterosexual. I respect him because he believes, as I do, that we are more than just our sexuality. As Christians, we are called to live under grace AND obedience. We are not “removed from the law”, rather Christ came to fulfill the law (that is a payment for sin) so that we are no longer under the consequences OF the law. For me, my PERSONAL beliefs are 1) There are enough churches now-a-days that will perform homosexual weddings, but those of us who chose not to (as a matter of conscience) are labeled as bigots and homophobes even though this is not true for ALL and the fact that the UMC Book of Discipline states that “homosexuality is not compatible with scripture”. If I were to do a homosexual, church-ordained wedding, I would be defrocked. 2) I don’t have a problem with “non-Christian” civil unions. I think the State will always function as The State and so be it. My concern is with setting precedent and the subsequent growing zeitgeist that would come from the precedent labeling all Pastors/Denominations who chose not to perform homosexual marriages as “bigoted, homophobic” or worse. I don’t believe that churches who are sticking to “tradition” are attempting to be hateful. What is more, it is not just “Christians”. Most other world faiths (Hindu, Buddhist, Muslims and even some philosophical Atheists) do not condone homosexual marriages. If my church members showed hate toward a homosexual couple, I would be the first to correct it. Make sense? I don’t think this is as “black and white” an issue as EITHER side would make it. There are Pastors who love both people (no matter the sin) and Orthodoxy – which puts them in a very difficult balancing situation.

          • Kerrigan C

            A great article for you to consider as you continue to love your homosexual friends just as I love my homosexual and heterosexual friends too – without judgment of what they do in the bedroom or whom they love – which is directly what Christ commanded us to do of one another without judgment.

            huffington post . com / john-shore / the-best-case-for-the-bible-not-condemning-homosexuality_b_1396345

          • Sientje Seinen

            Christ commanded those who are of His sheep to love one another and if someone is falling by the wayside you in your love,should show them the error of their ways, as you then are just as guilty as any homosexual if you condone their behaviour we dont condemn we tell them it is wrong and to turn away from the lustfull desires of the flesh, as satan goes about like a roaring lion.

          • Kerrigan C

            Well then let me show you the error of your ways – it’s called judgment. Be prepared to be judged in full….that day will come for all of us. I know that I operate through love – and unless you are doing something that is harmful to another, I do not judge what others do. You, on the other hand….along with the ilk like you… continue to judge things of which you have no personal understanding and for that, your day will come and be equally mete in full. That, is simple truth not based in judgment.

          • Sientje Seinen

            of course you dont judge what others do, then you dont love your fellowmen as when you see someone stealing you are not going to tell them it is wrong? you are indifferent or are suffering from apathy. and look up apathy in the dictionary it has nothing to do with love And of course the Lord is not going to judge the homosexuals for not repenting and listening to His Word?

          • Kerrigan C

            Stealing is harmful to another, Sientje. Perhaps you’re not too bright.

          • Sientje Seinen

            well since homosexuals are trying to steal or make marriage between a man and a woman less sacred, are they not guilty of mocking God when He gave the commandment “Go out and multiply and be fruitfull” so what god are you talking about? something you made up of your own? who now breaks His Word and caters to homosexuals desires and tells them it is okay. Is it not true that the Word of G-d the Lord God of Israel is never broken? and here you are trying to define everything to your own desires and earthly wisdom, shame on you.

          • Kerrigan C

            This was an idiotic answer….although by now I’m expecting that from you.

          • Kerrigan C

            Sigh….you once again forgot about “Judge NOT, less you be judged…..in full measure so shall it be mete upon you…..”…..Oh, Sientje….there is no changing your generation except through prayer. And so I will continue to pray for you.

          • Sientje Seinen

            and the Lord said also ” Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you, for this is the law and the prophets” why are you always forgetting to add “this is the law and the prophets”? and what do the prophets say.”Seek ye the Lord, while He may yet be found. Call on Him while He is near” does that not sound like that there may come a day where He no longer can be found? repent of your condoning wickedness

          • Sientje Seinen

            but they are not followers of Christ when they defy the redemption which is in Christ why would Christ need to suffer if they can continue in their sins. Christ is not an agent of Sin, He tells you to “Sin no more” and you will be judged according to the Word which is preached to you, so repent and give God the glory in your heart, they mock Christ’s suffering and therefore provoke the Lord God to anger. do you wish for the Lord to turn His back on America because you insist that homosexuality is not a sin?

          • Kerrigan C

            Who are you to say who they follow? Back to knitting!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            its easy to see that they mock Gods Word, and do not turn to the Lord whom will fail them never, as they still persists in their sinfull ways, instead of acknowledging that Christ is Lord and saviour in their hearts.

          • Sientje Seinen

            why then do you not turn away from the lusts of the flesh as When one acknowledges his sinfull actions, and comes before the throne of God when asking forgiveness, then one must also be repentant of said sins, and God forgives solely for the redemptive work which Christ did at calvary. without being contrite and sorry for your sins, there is no forgiveness, as you are mocking Christ suffering for your sins of the flesh.Notice Christ told the adulteress, “Go and sin no more” it is the same for everyone of us whom acknowledges Christ as being the Holy one of Israel the Redeemer of mankind

          • Kerrigan C

            I can’t resist responding to your diatribe….you regurgitate everything you’ve been taught – to your own detriment. Does it make you feel better to act like this? You are succeeding at nothing. You aren’t changing my mind and your attacks only paint you for the person you are who feels better pointing at someone on the basis that you think you are holier than me due to my position here. As to your ASSumption that I operate lustfully – well that just points to your arrogant ignorance as you don’t know me at all and further you don’t even know my sexual interests. I bet you are a miserable individual though – and I bet you are frustrated and separate yourself from the opportunity to know many people with this type of derogatory critical attitude. You separate yourself from more people than just me with this type of dialogue. Keep it up – you’re proving nothing but your arrogant judgmental nature.

          • Sientje Seinen

            I have not been taught this, I studied the Word of God and acknowledge Him as Lord and saviour, I ask the Lord to open up my heart and mind to His Word and give me understanding in same, something you need to do desperately if you do not wish to condemned by the Lord God, as notice how the Israelites angered the Lord God as their hearts were hardened and 3,000 fell in one day. Repent.

          • Kerrigan C

            Knit!

          • Sientje Seinen

            and you study the Holy scriptures and while you are at it, ask the Lord to open up your heart and mind to His Word and give you understanding in same.

          • Sientje Seinen

            Christ weeps for you Kerrigan for not repenting of your ways. as why let satan into the church to mock Christ suffering on Calvary, if the homosexuals do not wish to repent from their immoral perverted sexual relations, which God the Father has forbidden?

      • Michelle Bowen

        Honestly I think you’re being sarcastic and flippant and don’t really read the Bible with an open heart and accepting mind. You need to understand the old Testimant told us what Israel’s laws were, God comes down to them on a specially made ark, and once Jesus came that changed. All of it changed. Jesus tells us a better way to live. You are just being flipant and angry. You want us to budge on this when we won’t. Inact though you are wrong. We never said God hated the person who is gay we said he hates their sin. Just as he hates when I lie…or when I am mean, or if I swear! He hates the sin, he does not hate the sinner! Get it straight and you might actually understand things.

        Also we never slew Gays these days as you’re talking its Muslims! Get your facts straight. Just because someone says they follow a god doesn’t mean it s the same one!

        • Kerrigan C

          I answered you elsewhere – and read my comment above to O-boner. It also applies to you. God Bless.

      • Oboehner

        You seem to be operating on false assumptions, false assumption such as “gays are born that way” – they are not. You are also operating on total ignorance of scripture, and I’ll bet you never read any of it nor do you have a clue as to the context. I would explain, but I have a feeling that you really don’t care, you just want to push your lifestyle. And if you wish to touch rotting animals, and eat scavengers and bottom feeders go right ahead.

        • Kerrigan C

          OH….Boner.
          That’s about enough said to this one.
          I think I’ve been pretty clear and I don’t make assumptions….I pray and ask God for guidance rather than making blanket statements without a true desire to operate through love.
          This is not about condemnation….although it would seem you enjoy that.
          You are ASSuming, that I am operating on behalf of a gay lifestyle rather than on behalf of defence of Christianity. That, would be your error.
          Are you serious with this comment or would you like to retract – or are you just letting your sinful nature take hold of your comments?

          • Oboehner

            If you want guidance try cracking open the Bible once. Sinful nature? I thought you like that, after all you’re defending it.

          • MisterPine

            You might find throwing the Bible away to be a lot more helpful. I know it helped me. I no longer attack people over things like their sexuality.

          • Oboehner

            So now your a big pedophile advocate, I get it.

          • MisterPine

            Nope, pretty sure I never said anything about the abuse of children being cool. Try again.

          • Oboehner

            One perversion is the same as the next, and I’m pretty sure gays going into schools talking to children about their twisted lifestyle constitutes as the abuse of children – so you didn’t have to.

          • MisterPine

            Why should I care what two consenting adults do in their private life, as long as they aren’t hurting each other? Why should you?
            And why is it wrong for people to tell children in schools, hey, there are homosexuals in this world, please don’t humiliate, torture or kill them please?

          • Oboehner

            So why was the guy performing oral on his horse arrested? The horse was free to run off implying consent and he wasn’t hurting it.
            You find nothing wrong with homo’s teaching children how they perform their deviant acts? Figures.
            BTW I won’t be humiliating, torturing or killing any deviants, they do a great job of that to themselves.

          • MisterPine

            Are you seriously this stupid? Because an animal cannot give consent. And what does that have to do with giving rights to homosexuals?

            No one teaches children what goes on in the bedrooms of homosexuals. That’s best left to twisted minds like yours. It’s two people in love who have the right to be in love. That is what gets taught.

          • Sientje Seinen

            It isnt love it is lusts of the flesh for the same gender, which is gross and has nothing to do with love, as the parts dont fit and most homosexuals male that is die at an early age of Aids.

          • MisterPine

            Back in the 1980s maybe. Now the demographic with the most AIDS is straight, black women. And you’re wrong, homosexuals fall in love like everyone else, why wouldn’t they?

          • Sientje Seinen

            are you saying that homosexuals dont have depraved thoughts, is their sexual behaviour closely related to animal behaviour whom also do everything according to instinct and you cannot reason with them?

          • MisterPine

            Homosexuals don’t have any more “depraved” thoughts than anyone else, they are simply attracted to their own gender. That can’t be changed, not even through the kind of “reason” you are talking about, so why not let them live their own lives without oppressing them?

          • Kerrigan C

            Read my posts and try and find another way to live outside of your self-righteous misinformed agenda.

          • Oboehner

            Read my posts and try and find another way to live outside of your self-righteous perverted misinformed agenda.

          • Kerrigan C

            Mirror – and quoting me proves your disabilities.

          • Oboehner

            “…proves your disabilities.” Proves your lack of substance.

          • Kerrigan C

            lol….you have great depth and writing skill.

          • Oboehner

            And the hits keep rolling.

          • Kerrigan C

            Ba-dum-BUM!

          • Kerrigan C

            After reading your comments, you cannot be reading the same bible – certainly you are not following any of what’s contained therein. You should be ashamed of yourself…and so should anyone that has up-voted you. Christ will deal with you directly. I hope you’re ready when that day comes.

          • Oboehner

            Deal with me for what, pushing an abomination? Oh wait, that would be you – so what’s next abortion? After all we need to show love to planned parenthood.

          • Kerrigan C

            Your mind is immature and limited and your words are gutter like and not at all lovingly spoken – Christ would call you out in a heartbeat. And you can be assured, one day he will.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzz….

          • Sientje Seinen

            I love the Lord God and christ Jesus whom He sent and I am calling you out for disobeying His word repent and give the Lord God the glory for sending Christ to do His redeeming work.

          • Kerrigan C

            In the name of Christ Jesus, I ask you Lord to deal with this woman and show her your loving Grace despite her arrogant misguided ignorance. Your child now and always – Kerrigan

          • Sientje Seinen

            and Jesus said “Fear God who has the power to cast ye into hell” and did the Lord God not say or forbid for two men to lie together, and call it an abomination, So why would Christ tell you to fear the Lord God and harken to His Word?

          • Kerrigan C

            So why do you continue to write what you do and NOT fear His wrath? The tongue is a wicked instrument – yours is not being used for love and so you shall be assessed appropriately when the day comes.

          • Sientje Seinen

            which god are you worshipping Kerigan, is it the Lord God of Israel and Christ Jesus whom He sent to call everyone to repentance, or is it satan whom tells you that everyone else is wrong but you are right?

          • Kerrigan C

            No – it’s the flying Spaghetti Monster. If you are not just writing without reading to satisfy yourself, you would not ask that question – regardless of your twisted views, if you subscribe to Jesus, then you are my sister. And despite your fallacies, I accept you for who you are – while I do not like what you represent one iota.

          • Sientje Seinen

            but I dont want to be your sister with your twisted views of whom Christ is and mocking His suffering on Calvary

          • Kerrigan C

            Well one day, when we both stand before Him….and you have rejected me due to your twisted nature, you will be accountable for your words The tongue is an evil tool. I’m sorry you can’t handle me – I’ll trust Jesus to work a miracle on you while you are still here so that hopefully before the next level, you have greater understanding of your bigoted failures.

          • Sientje Seinen

            I am not rejecting you, I am rejecting the ideas you bring up making Christ an agent of sin, as He is our mediator between us and the Lord God, and if you say it is okay to sin and not listen to His Word, or be repentant, I have no hope for you as you are mocking Him, open up your heart to Him and ask Him to show you the way. btw I dont want to handle you, are you nuts, I am trying to have a dialogue with you, concerning that Christ suffered greatly to bring us back into the favour of God, but one must be repentant of their evil desires within one’s heart.

        • MisterPine

          It sure seems like you’re allowing bronze-age superstition to rule your life.

          • Oboehner

            And your letter mental deficiency rule yours.

          • MisterPine

            I don’t take advice from Christian bigots. Enjoy your paranoid revenge fantasies.

          • Oboehner

            I’m a bigot? Not celebrating a perverted lifestyle choice does not make one a bigot, sorry.
            Since you champion perversion, I suppose pedophiles are your friends.

          • MisterPine

            You need to stop telling other people how to live their lives based on your little hate book, but that’s for you to figure out on your own.

          • Oboehner

            Sexual deviants need to stop telling other people how to run their businesses based on their disgusting little hate book, but that’s for you to figure out on your own.

          • MisterPine

            We’ll let the law decide that, shall we? Why don’t you go picket a funeral or a Red Lobster in the meantime?

          • Oboehner

            I suppose you’re headed to a Chick-fil-A like Floyd Corkins.

          • MisterPine

            No, I’m not one to let a book of Bronze Age superstitions written by goat herders dictate my diet or the people too icky to associate with.

          • Oboehner

            Right, your little religion is so much more enlightened with unobservable exploding dots, missing links and whatnot. Let’s not forget your love of Coprophilia.

          • MisterPine

            Coprophilia, eh? Well, you love it too, as long as it’s a man and a woman doing it, which according to my dictionary makes you a hypocrite.

            And don’t mistake science for religion. Yours is the faith-based one.

          • Oboehner

            Again, I don’t condone it when anyone does it – stop projecting.

            And don’t mistake religion for science. Yours is the faith-based one.

          • MisterPine

            No, mine is the evidence-based one.

            And it’s clear what’s going on with you, you are a first-class hypocrite who will forgive “deviant” sexual practices between straight people but attack them in people you hate for ridiculous reasons. What a model Christian you are.

          • Oboehner

            Show me some evidence of exploding dots, or the missing link, or that any species of anything evolved into anything else.
            You’re projecting again not top mention fabricating information – desperate are we?

          • MisterPine

            Why should I engage with a Christian supremacist over something you wouldn’t comprehend anyway? Do your own homework.

          • Oboehner

            Translation – you have nothing. Do you own homework, blind faith boy.

          • MisterPine

            No, I’m just not playing your silly little games, sonny.

          • Oboehner

            Still have nothing, huh?

          • MisterPine

            Oh, I have plenty, and so do you. The thing is, if you’re going to tell the science that’s staring you in the face in the form of factual texts and so on that it’s wrong, then clearly I’m not going to have much better luck penetrating your skull. You don’t even know what you’re asking here, I mean you want demonstrated evidence of a species evolving into something else – sure, I can deliver that, but are you aware it’s going to take millions of years?

          • Oboehner

            There is no science starring me in the face, just religious belief attempting to masquerade as science. Take this for example: “I mean you want demonstrated evidence of a species evolving into something else – sure, I can deliver that, but are you aware it’s going to take millions of years?” According to you this already happened, there should be some record of it unless you just want me to take it on faith.

          • MisterPine

            There is, but how are you going to believe it if you think the world is only 6000 years old?

          • Oboehner

            It is only 6000 years old, but how are you going to believe it if you believe the earth came from some “big bang” with absolutely no evidence to back that up?

          • MisterPine

            No, it’s between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years old.

            I’ll take the big bang over a list of lineages in the Bible, thanks.

          • Oboehner

            It’s your religious belief, you’re free to be a believer – just don’t try and BS me that it is some kind of science. If it is science, prove it.

          • MisterPine

            It isn’t religion, for the last time. It’s science. And the great thing about science is that it’s true whether you believe it or not.

          • Oboehner

            Crying science over and over doesn’t change anything. And yes true science is real, but unfortunately the religion you obviously have blind faith in is not science.

          • MisterPine

            I dunno what is more desperate, your willful ignorance to accept what’s already been proven, or your fundie rebranding of everything you make no effort to understand.

          • Oboehner

            If it’s been proven you would have posted some, but all you have is blind faith and mary worship.

          • MisterPine

            Mary worship? I worship nothing, I am agnostic. But if this an attempt to slur Catholics, they don’t worship Mary either. You should be embracing the Catholics, they hate gay people as much as you do.

            Also you are impervious to proof. We have seen that.

          • Oboehner

            The “fundy” comment is definitely catholic, and the evolution religion is also held by catholics, so my bad if I got that one wrong.

          • MisterPine

            No, fundies are universally despised, by traditional Christians and atheists alike. Have you not heard of the website Fundies Say the Darnedest Things?

          • Oboehner

            I don’t think you really have a grasp, maybe you need to evolve some more – better get on that.

          • MisterPine

            I’m as evolved as I’m going to get. I don’t let holy books dictate the people I should hate and oppress.

          • Oboehner

            You just let un-provable “billions of years” fairytales decide that for you.

          • MisterPine

            Not un-provable, PROVEN. As in, you lose.

          • Oboehner

            Let’s see the proof then, or just keep your religion to yourself.

          • MisterPine

            Calling science a religion doesn’t make it a religion, just as calling yourself a Christian doesn’t make you anything more than a fundie.

          • Oboehner

            Calling religion science doesn’t make it science, just as calling yourself an agnostic doesn’t make you anything more than a blind religious follower.

          • MisterPine

            Nobody is calling religion a science. You are ATTEMPTING to call science a religion which it isn’t, since there are no holy books and there is no messiah-like figure. Science is self-revealing and religion is based on faith. Furthermore, you are a hater.

          • Oboehner

            “Nobody is calling religion a science.” You are.
            You are ATTEMPTING to call a religion science which it isn’t, since there is no proof, it can’t be observed, it can’t be duplicated, and one has to take it on blind faith.

          • MisterPine

            No, I never said religion was a science nor do I believe anyone thinks that way. I don’t even know where you got that from since it’s patently absurd. Religion and science are completely separate entities. I believe in science because it is tested, observable and provable. You believe in a religion which is entirely a matter of faith.

          • Oboehner

            No, I never said religion was a science nor do I believe anyone thinks that way. I don’t even know where you got that from since it’s patently absurd. Religion and science are completely separate entities. I believe in science because it is tested, observable and provable. You believe in a religion which is entirely a matter of faith.
            Evolutionism is a religion.

          • MisterPine

            I’m going to assume you think there is some really clever point in repeating my words back at me in the hopes that they will somehow apply to me when spit back verbatim. Fine, play your game, but you look like a dunce. We are in no way saying the same thing. Religion is about faith and science is about facts. Suck it up.

          • Oboehner

            Religion is about faith and science is about facts. Evolutionism is a religion, suck it up.
            If you had facts you would post them.

          • MisterPine

            Go to the website of any reputable university and type in EVOLUTION. It is studied, tested, factual, and does not require faith in the writings of bronze age goat herders. You lose.

          • Oboehner

            I have, why do you think I know it is a religion? Bill Nye the religion guy in his little video explaining evolutionism said “molecules just happen” then proceeded to build on that. He then said, “somehow, probably…” and proceeded to build on that. Not very scientific, especially given that his foundational statement is based on a belief (faith). Like a foundation of sand.

          • MisterPine

            It’s Bill Nye the Science Guy, not Religion Guy. I think you know that science doesn’t have the answer to everything but since evolution can be observed and tested we know it to be factual.

          • Oboehner

            Repeating the same BS over and over doesn’t make it any less a religion. But since evolutionism can be observed and tested, why don’t you dazzle me with tests and observations on speciation, or “billions of years”, or exploding dots. What I don’t want to hear are more boring stories on how bacteria adapts and remains bacteria, show me bossie to blowhole.

          • MisterPine

            What makes it BS, I’m curious. The fact that you appear not to understand it? No scientist explains things in terms of exploding dots, that’s usually the sign that a fundie has let their imagination go wild and never understood what was being explained in the first place. So you’re asking me to demonstrate evolution to you right now? Even though you know it’s not possible to do it NOW because it requires millions of years? And so you walk away triumphantly claiming victory – no, I’ve been through this too many times with your ilk. You don’t understand the process of evolution and so you resort to strawmen
            Every.
            Damn.
            Time.

          • Oboehner

            Predictable, starting out with the old “you appear not to understand it” line when it is clear YOU don’t. Followed by the epithet and lack of intelligence claim. Then comes the “we can’t demonstrate it” cop-out requiring me to take your religion on blind faith while denying it is a religion with no proof. Followed by more insults – all of which happen –
            Every.
            Damn.
            Time.
            The only thing missing are the appeal to authority arguments.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, I understand it just fine. What you are missing is that with all the evidence out there you completely choose to ignore, you figure challenging someone on a message forum to “prove evolution” in 15 words or less is going to make you look like a hero. If your belief in a young earth is based on Bible lineages, I am amazed you can get yourself dressed in the morning.

          • Oboehner

            There is no evidence to ignore, if there were you would most certainly be able to produce it “in 15 words or less”. For you evolution religious types, you think you are a hero by using ad hominem attacks and appeal to authority arguments to cover your lack of substantive comments – For example: “If your belief in a young earth is based on Bible lineages, I am amazed you can get yourself dressed in the morning.” Your faith requires you to believe in the mythological exploding dot and molecules that “just happen” and you have the where-with-all to hack on my beliefs. Piltdown man would be proud – if he wasn’t a fraud.

          • MisterPine

            I don’t know what exploding dots you are talking about…more strawman I expect. I believe in science because it delivers on its promises, it is factual, and not based in any way on faith. That doesn’t make me a hero. It means I have common sense. Also, i haven’t appealed to authority once. I have appealed to common knowledge taken from science.

          • Oboehner

            Science is wonderful, however evolutionism is a religion, it does not deliver and is about as factual as Nebraska Man.

          • MisterPine

            Yes, we can see how you like to dress up the established language to turn facts into faith. It’s not “evolutionism”, it’s evolution. It occurs. It’s been proven, and it’s fact.

          • Oboehner

            “It occurs. It’s been proven, and it’s fact.” LOL, because you say so? Or is it because you have strong faith? What a joke, you can’t even come up with any proof, just excuses and name calling – evolutionism fits like a glove.

          • MisterPine

            Because I don’t argue with reason and facts. Evolution occurs whether you “believe” it or not. It doesn’t care if you believe it and neither do I. You’re only walking through life with blinders on. How’s that working out for you?

          • Oboehner

            Because you CAN’T argue with reason and facts. Evolution’s speciation doesn’t occur, never has, never will. You’re only walking through life with blinders on. How’s that working out for you?

          • MisterPine

            Seriously now, you are embarrassing yourself. The entire civilized world knows you are wrong. Even most of your fellow Christians disagree. It’s pathetic. Let it go.

          • Oboehner

            There you go with the popular opinion again, still not scientific. It’s pathetic. Let it go.
            If you are referring to catholics as “fellow Christians”, you fail on that front as well.

          • MisterPine

            You’re STARTING to catch on…and what makes it popular opinion? Maybe the fact that it’s tested and proven?

            And you’re not SERIOUSLY going to tell me that CATHOLICS aren’t Christians on top of all the other tinfoil hat crap you’ve been spouting. You’re not, are you? Yes…yes, I will bet that you are.

          • Oboehner

            Because of the fact the masses are @sses and blindly follow whatever bilge is thrown their way – like you do.
            Catholics worship mary, Christians do not.
            Tinfoil hat? Seriously, you’re stooping to that? Why not stop with all of the useless asinine yammering and just post some proof? Besides, it aluminum foil, not tin, seems you can’t even get that right.

          • MisterPine

            The masses also follow gravity, which by the way is only a theory too – is that bilge as well?

            Who cares if Catholics worship Mary or not? They worship Jesus Christ, so how does their attitude towards Mary affect the attitude towards Jesus? Are you getting your information from history texts or from Jack Chick tracts?

            evolutionfaq.com/articles/five-proofs-evolution

          • Oboehner

            I’ll tell you what, I’ll go 10 floors up and drop a bowling ball to demonstrate gravity, while you stand down below, at the same time you can demonstrate evolution by evolving into something impervious to blunt force.

            Five fallacies of Evolution:
            1. The universal genetic code. Claiming evidence of evolution when in fact it could also be evidence of a common designer or creation.
            2. The fossil record. Fossils only prove some creature existed, they do not prove they evolved or that they actually ever even procreated. There are also not any transitionary fossils showing any human evolution – none, they are still missing and will always be.
            3. Genetic commonalities. See number 1.
            4. Common traits in embryos. Gill slits, LOL, this has been debunked years ago. Mammals, or any other non-aquatic creatures, do not have them, they have been shown to be nothing more than folds in the skin.
            5. Bacterial resistance to antibiotics. A minor adaptation (which could also show we were created that way) is in no way speciation, in fact when left alone the bacteria reverts back to its original state – and it is still…… *drumroll* Bacteria! Not an elephant or anything else.
            Keep believing in your religion as catholics do in direct contradiction to biblical teaching.

          • MisterPine

            OK, you want to play that game? I can too.
            http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

            Five Common Misconceptions about Evolution

            “Evolution has never been observed.”

            Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don’t appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

            The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, “Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory.” Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The “Observed Instances of Speciation” FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

            Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn’t been observed. Evidence isn’t limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

            What hasn’t been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn’t propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

            “Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.”

            This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, “No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body.” [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25] Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, “The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease.” Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.

            However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can’t have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

            The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for differential reproductive success. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than short-appendaged ones. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don’t violate any physical laws.

            “There are no transitional fossils.”

            A transitional fossil is one that looks like it’s from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There’s nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.

            To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. For many more examples, see the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive, and see http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/talk_origins.html for sample images for some invertebrate groups.

            The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like “dog” or “ant,” they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is “100% bird,” when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn’t.

            Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.

            “But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life’s physical genealogy.” – Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994

            “The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.”

            There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn’t understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don’t interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

            Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn’t need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).

            Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don’t state the “givens,” but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.

            (One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn’t depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn’t affect evolution in the least.)

            “Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.”

            First, we should clarify what “evolution” means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is “a change in allele frequencies over time.” By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word “evolution” mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

            Calling the theory of evolution “only a theory” is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what “theory” means in informal usage and in a scientific context. A theory, in the scientific sense, is “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can’t be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)

            Lack of proof isn’t a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one’s conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you’re operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence. The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn’t 100% certain.

            What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has–evidence, and lots of it. Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.

            Conclusion

            These are not the only misconceptions about evolution by any means. Other common misunderstandings include how geological dating techniques work, implications to morality and religion, the meaning of “uniformitarianism,” and many more. To address all these objections here would be impossible.

            But consider: About a hundred years ago, scientists, who were then mostly creationists, looked at the world to figure out how God did things. These creationists came to the conclusions of an old earth and species originating by evolution. Since then, thousands of scientists have been studying evolution with increasingly more sophisticated tools. Many of these scientists have excellent understandings of the laws of thermodynamics, how fossil finds are interpreted, etc., and finding a better alternative to evolution would win them fame and fortune. Sometimes their work has changed our understanding of significant details of how evolution operates, but the theory of evolution still has essentially unanimous agreement from the people who work on it.

          • Oboehner

            “What they don’t appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.” Which requires faith as no speciation has ever been observed, nor has life ever evolved out of nothing – without which the rest would not exist.
            “A transitional fossil is one that looks like it’s from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two.” Similar characteristics are not proof just more speculation. Speculation = faith. And where are those transitory humanoid fossils? There simply aren’t any which is evidence that other fossils thought to be transitional are in fact just another extinct species.
            “To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false.” To say there are requires faith as no one can prove that other than the fact that the creature existed, it ever “evolved into anything else. “The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.” – Stephen Jay Gould (Professor of Geology and Paleontology, Harvard University)

            “Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution because it is this theory (there are several) which we use to interpret the fossil record. By doing so we are guilty of circular reasoning if we then say the fossil record supports this theory.” Ronald R. West, PhD (paleoecology and geology) (Assistant Professor of Paleobiology at Kansas State University)

            Attempting to bury me in BS doesn’t change the fact that evolutionism is in fact a religion.

            “The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that ‘a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein’.” Sir Fred Hoyle (English astronomer, Professor of Astronomy at Cambridge University)

          • MisterPine

            Your denial of facts is spectacularly embarrassing for you. This is not a faith. These are facts and you are denying them.

          • Oboehner

            Not denying, refuting – there is a difference. Demonstrating how evolutionism is a religion whether you choose to accept it or not.

          • MisterPine

            Fine, “refute” them all you like to a body of. Scientists. When they’re done laughing at you, you can run back here and claim victory as you always do.

          • Oboehner

            Laugh? Yeah right:
            http://www.ichthus.info/Evolution/DOCS/Scientific-dessent-2007.pdf
            I don’t have to claim victory, you never even got out of the gate.

          • MisterPine

            “An overwhelming majority of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity.[1][2] Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, has issued statements rejecting intelligent design[2] and a petition supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners.[3] Additionally, US courts have ruled in favor of teaching evolution in science classrooms, and against teaching creationism, in numerous cases such as Edwards v. Aguillard, Hendren v. Campbell, McLean v. Arkansas and Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.”

          • Oboehner

            I think I’ve heard this before… popular opinion does not make fact flat earth blood-letting boy.

          • MisterPine

            When it’s the popular opinion of the “overwhelming majority of the scientific community” you need to ask yourself how squarely you’ve got your head up your wazoo.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzzz….. The overwhelming majority of people in Iran are muslim, does that make that religion true?

          • MisterPine

            Are they scientists?

          • Oboehner

            If they say they are, right?

          • MisterPine

            Um…no.
            You DO know what a scientist is, right? And why it might be a good idea to listen to them when they are in the overwhelming majority?

          • Oboehner

            More popular opinion.

            “We cannot identify ancestors or “missing links,” and we cannot devise testable theories to explain how particular episodes of evolution came about. Gee is adamant that all the popular stories about how the first amphibians conquered the dry land, how the birds developed wings and feathers for flying, how the dinosaurs went extinct, and how humans evolved from apes are just products of our imagination, driven by prejudices and preconceptions.” Peter J. Bowler, Review of In Search of Deep Time by Henry Gee (Free Press, 1999), American Scientist (vol. 88, March/April 2000), p. 169.

          • MisterPine

            Evolution is attacked by religious fundamentalists, a small minority, who:
            refute scientific evidence using Scripture as their sole argument
            use political lobbying to force their beliefs on the general public
            promote confusion and science illiteracy to mask their intentions

          • Oboehner

            I can refute all of your pathetic “evidence” without even mentioning the Bible. Your post would be more accurate this way: Anything other than evolution is attacked by religious evolutionist zealots, a small minority, who: manufacture scientific evidence using ad hominem attacks and appeal to authority as their sole argument, use political lobbying to force their beliefs on the general public promote confusion and science illiteracy to mask their intentions, claiming fact when it couldn’t be further from the truth.

          • MisterPine

            Too bad most of the civilized world thinks you are wrong.

          • Oboehner

            Popular opinion does not make fact, most of the civilized world used to think the world was flat – how’s that workin’ for ya?

          • MisterPine

            A little surprised you’re not a flat-earther yourself because that again is another group that flatly refutes scientific fact in favor of what’s written in your little Bible.

          • Oboehner

            The Bible does not say the earth is flat, looks like you know nothing about that either.

          • MisterPine

            Yes it does. Read it and weep. Complete with scripture.

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

          • Oboehner

            “Even typical young-earth creationists who think it’s 6000 years old don’t go so far as to say that it’s not round.” Are you referring to this with your little wikiwhatever?

          • MisterPine

            Well, why don’t you take that up with your Flat Earth Society fundies? You want a weblink?

          • Oboehner

            Ad hominem attacks still don’t prove your religion – fail. Since you know so much about evolutionism, why don’t you post just one tidbit of proof, just one.

          • MisterPine

            As hominem attacks? Hello??
            http://theflatearthsociety.org

          • Oboehner

            Now an irrelevant website, how nice – still doesn’t prove your religion.

          • MisterPine

            An IRRELEVANT website?
            Can you tell me how theflatearthsociety.org would be irrelevant to a flat earth?

          • Oboehner

            Does a flat earth prove your religion? I think not.

          • MisterPine

            I have no religion, Obonehead. You do. And this site confirms you are in the company of the tinfoil hat brigade.

          • Oboehner

            What we have here is your pathetic attempt to shift focus from the fact you have a religion.

          • MisterPine

            Right. Too bad everyone including the dictionary disagrees with you.

          • Oboehner

            noun re·li·gion ri-ˈli-jən a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
            That rules out the dictionary, now tell me how popular opinion makes fact, be specific.

          • MisterPine

            Because for the last time it isn’t a belief in evolution, it is knowledge of it. I don’t sit at home and pray for evolution to occur. I know it does because it can be measured and observed.

          • Oboehner

            Does the definition state prayer it in? No. Like I said, whether you admit it or not, you have to have faith to believe evolution occurred at all.

            “Big bang” – faith, it can’t be observed, tested, or repeated.
            Life spontaneously arising out of “primordial ooze” – faith, it can’t be observed, tested, proven, or repeated.
            Speciation – faith, it can’t be observed, tested, proven, or repeated.
            “Billions of years” – faith, it can’t be observed, tested, proven, or repeated.
            It’s a religion.

          • MisterPine

            No, it’s not a religion, you just have to understand what you’re talking about in the first place. For example, even without the big bang theory you still have evolution, I’m not sure why you’re tying the two together. “Life spontaneously arising out of primordial ooze” has nothing to do with evolution at all, now you’ve moved on to abiogenesis. Evolution is about change, abiogenesis is about origins.

          • Oboehner

            Neither one happened so it really doesn’t change anything about your religion.

          • MisterPine

            I have no religion, ignoramus. I am agnostic. Religion is your department, o faith based one.

          • Oboehner

            Whatever you say evolutionism boy, just stay calm – it will all be ok.

          • MisterPine

            Just keep trying to rewrite the dictionary and we’ll see how far you get.

          • Oboehner

            More popular opinion… *YAWN*

          • MisterPine

            So you don’t know the difference between opinion and fact, then? Not surprising.

            This might help:
            Christianity is a religion.
            Evolution is not.

            If you disagree, then your problem is with the dictionary. Not me.

          • Oboehner

            Have any hard evidence or should I just take that on faith?

          • MisterPine

            The dictionary isn’t good enough? It is for most people, why not you? Because it was written by fallible men I suppose?

          • Oboehner

            The evolutionists playbook: Alternate between ad hominem attacks and appeal to authority (or popular opinion) arguments, repeat. You’ve got that one down, too bad you got nothing more than that and your religious faith.

          • MisterPine

            No, using the DICTIONARY is not an “appeal to authority”. It’s about getting the correct definition. I have no religion – and on that matter the dictionary is in agreement.

          • Oboehner

            Appeal to Authority
            argumentum ad verecundiam
            (also known as: argument from authority, appeal to false authority, argument from false authority, ipse dixit, testimonials [form of])
            Definition: Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument. As the audience, allowing an irrelevant authority to add credibility to the claim being made, like a dictionary.
            And since you choose to ignore the fact that the definition I posted was from the dictionary, you lose.

          • MisterPine

            How very revealing, so you mean to say that you don’t think that the dictionary is authoritative? Is that what you mean by accusing me of appeal to authority? At least I’m in good company, along with the rest of the civilized world who has no problem with the dictionary being authoritative.

            And by the way, just what definition did you post which came from the dictionary? What word were you defining?

          • Oboehner

            Religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
            – Merriam-Webster

          • MisterPine

            So what? Anyone can post a dictionary definition. Doesn’t do a damn bit of good if you have so little understanding of your own subject that you can’t see that it isn’t a matter of faith at all. Evolution is not a religion because it fulfills none of the criteria provided by your dictionary definition.

          • Oboehner

            It doesn’t do a bit of good if you have so little understanding of your own subject that you can’t see that it is a matter of faith. Evolution is religion because it fulfills the criteria provided by my dictionary definition.

          • MisterPine

            Tell you what, why don’t you take your “evolution is religion” argument out in public sometime and see how many people point and laugh at the deluded fundamentalist?

            When evolution is found to be tried, true and tested, it is no longer a “faith” let alone a “belief”. It just is.

          • Oboehner

            Popular opinion STILL doesn’t prove a thing any more than unsubstantiated claims of “tried, true and tested” It just doesn’t. It’s just your religion, you prove it with each post you write flat-earth blood-letting boy.

          • MisterPine

            http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/ev.not.html

            Point #2 should be of particular interest to you, since you appear to not understand the difference between faith and fact.

          • Oboehner

            More “because I said so” tripe, and yet another religious fail on your part. Just one fact that proves evolutionism, not indicated through faith, but an indisputable fact – try it.

          • MisterPine

            You have been given several already I am still waiting for you to acknowledge. Quit sidestepping. And “because I said so” is not a factor here – “because it has been proven” is what you’re having such a hard time with.

          • Oboehner

            Just one, let’s hear it. Even if one slipped through the cracks and I missed it, post it again, let’s hear it – I double dare you. Quit sidestepping with “I already posted it” nonsense. Just one.

          • MisterPine
          • Oboehner

            I don’t think your brain has evolved sufficiently enough, you already posted this link and I already handled it. Since it appears this is all you have, pathetic as it is, pick the best one of the five and I will show you how it takes faith to believe it – again.

          • MisterPine

            Any one you like. I must have missed the post where you “handled” it. How interesting that you find these cornerstones of evolution to be “pathetic”.

          • Oboehner

            I’ll just take no. 1. The universal genetic code. The claim is that this somehow proves evolutionism, it does not. It could also prove Intelligent Design or Creation, you have to have FAITH to believe it is proof of evolutionism.
            Back to you, choose another one yourself.

          • MisterPine

            Not so fast, we’re not quite done with this one. Four themes run through the evolution of the genetic code: chemical principles, biosynthetic expansion, natural selection and information channels. As those four themes are integral to evolution but NOT to intelligent design or creation, It is evidence for a common ancestor which is what evolution claims, and not what intelligent design or creation claims. So you’ve merely taken the existing genetic code and tried to make it about something you want it to be about rather than what it actually IS about.

          • Oboehner

            “The stereochemical code could have created an ancient core of assignments.” Could have, seriously? A belief(faith).

            “The standard modern genetic code grew from a simpler earlier code through a process of ‘biosynthetic expansion’. – (Speculation based on faith.) Here the idea is that (more speculation) primordial life ‘discovered’ new amino acids (e.g., as by-products of metabolism) and later back-incorporated some of these into the machinery of genetic coding.” Speculation, speculation, speculation based on the BELIEF that evolutionism is true. Not fact, belief (faith)

            “Natural selection… a recent hypothesis suggests…” More speculation based on a biased belief system – even more faith. The whole “natural selection” belief is that a small adaptation somehow led to speciation, but alas, there is zero proof of any speciation – none, it has to be taken on faith.

            “Information channels: Information-theoretic (speculation) approaches see the genetic code as an error-prone information channel.” *SIGH* more speculation
            Still waiting for that hard evidence, the speculative faith is getting lame. Every one of these speculations is based on the house of cards “billions of years” belief.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, I see how you think this works. Look through a huge pile of text for all the things that are not definite and then decide from there that since not every single I is dotted or T is crossed that there’s some unsureness, therefore FAITH.

            I’m sure if you looked up the theory of gravity there would be a few things that they didn’t know the whys and wherefores to as well, but we still know gravity exists. You’re poking holes in anything that uses any amount of vagueness to say AHA! So they don’t know for sure! But that’s not how it works.

            I might not know how my alarm clock works exactly but I know it’s going to wake me up tomorrow morning at 9 am.

          • Oboehner

            When all you have is repeated speculations based on the mythological “billions of years” in your cut and paste, it pretty much fails all on it’s own. If you actually had any specifics you would mention them, but given the complete lack of substantive rebuttal on your part clearly demonstrates the total lack of understanding you have for the hypothetical bilge you put forth. If it was actually solid proof there would be no vagueness.
            Bringing up gravity in your little straw man approach is also a fail as one can observe, demonstrate, and repeat gravity – it does not have to be taken on faith like your evolutionism fairytale. And you might not know how your alarm clock works, but it can be observed working, demonstrated to work, and repeated if you wish to get up the following day at 9am. Not even close to a comparison.

          • MisterPine

            “Mythological” billions of years is it? With not one single blind bit of understanding of radiometric age dating, you dismiss the entire thing? Why’s that – too many “probablys” and “maybes” in the research for your comfort?

            Science has proven this. It’s not necessary for you to understand it to accept it. You don’t even have to give up your belief in God, just the most ridiculous parts of your fundamentalism which are telling you to deny what scientists see and work with every day of their lives.

            If this is the way you’re going to deal with every bit of proof of evolution that gets handed to you, then all you are doing is deflecting. You are not disproving. As such, you have pretty clearly displayed that you have no clue what you’re talking about.

          • Oboehner

            “radiometric age dating” That’s a good one, based on the assumption (faith) that the earth is billions of years old, the system is highly flawed. There is no baseline to measure any type of accuracy, and any and all calculations are based on the fallacy the earth is billions of years old – circular reasoning the favorite tool of the evolutionist. “How do we know the earth is billions of years old? Radiometric age dating. How do we know radiometric age dating works? Because the earth is billions of years old!”
            Probablys and maybes are hardly scientific proof, just more religious belief.
            What other fairytales can you regale me with?

          • MisterPine

            Your issue isn’t with me, it’s with modern science who have proven conclusively that evolution occurs, and that the age of the earth is between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years. It’s entirely your choice if you wish to believe instead in the words of Bronze Age goat herders. Your opinions are irrelevant though because you are wrong. You are Mr. Faith-based fairytale believer. You are the one with the religion. We are as different as day and night.

          • Oboehner

            “who have proven conclusively that evolution occurs” – that’s a big BS.
            Attacking the beliefs of others doesn’t prove your religion, so you can stow the “Bronze Age goat herders” crap Mr. faith based fairytale believer.

          • MisterPine

            If evolution’s a religion, who’s the savior figure in it? What is the holy book?

          • Oboehner

            You really have comprehension problems don’t you? “a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith” “scrupulous conformity” – Merriam-Webster

          • MisterPine

            I can go to Merriam Webster online, too. So why is it that you ignored the more popular definitions, “the belief in a god or a group of gods,” “an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods”?

          • Oboehner

            Just because YOU deem other definitions as more popular, doesn’t mean these are incorrect – sorry, fail again.

          • MisterPine

            I’m not deems no them more popular. I posted the definitions at the top of the page. You posted sub-definitions way down the page. Why?

          • Oboehner

            Were they or were they not definitions?

          • MisterPine

            In that tenuous, vague way you seem to like everything to be.

          • Oboehner

            Answer the question, a simple yes or no.

          • MisterPine

            You don’t help your own case by inventing phrases like “religious evolutionist zealots” which makes no sense at all – how can you be a zealot if you are not upholding faith, but facts? And a small minority? Are you even serious about that? And good luck “lobbying” against things that are established facts and scientifically proven. You are pathetic, you lost a long time ago and don’t even have the decency to admit defeat.

          • Oboehner

            Lame, you can’t even muster up an appeal to authority argument. I can plainly see you have nothing but “established facts and scientifically proven” nonsense and blind faith in your religion.

          • MisterPine

            There IS no faith, moron, because what I have is not a religion. You can move the goalposts all you like and re-define what’s already been defined, but you still lose. I can’t even “muster up an appeal to authority argument”? Right….because that would be a logical fallacy, that’s YOUR department.

          • Oboehner

            Evolutionism doesn’t even qualify as a logical fallacy, it’s merely something people like you want to believe. Nebraska Man can be the poster child for your religion, a whole person created from a single tooth – and a pig’s tooth at that.

          • MisterPine

            I think you will find that years of testing, examination, study, findings, facts and data are just a little bit more reliable than “because my book of bronze age mythology says so.”

          • Oboehner

            You keep talking about all these facts yet you never produce any, are they top-secret or something because I’ve never seen any. Or am I just supposed to take it on faith because some guy who invented an exploding dot said so?

          • MisterPine

            Sorry strawman, the exploding dot thing is all yours. Keep trying.

          • Oboehner

            It’s part of your religion or didn’t you know that? You know the mythological “big bang” you hang your whole process on.

          • MisterPine

            First problem: I have no religion.
            Second problem: The Big Bang is not an exploding dot.
            Third problem: Your tinfoil hat is too tight.

          • Oboehner

            You might want to do some studying of your religion, the “big bang” supposedly originated from a speck of matter (as a “science” textbook stated) “no larger than the period at the end of this sentence.”
            You’ve got a serious case of blind faith and denial. Moronic “tinfoil hat” comments don’t prove your religion.

          • MisterPine

            That is a piss poor representation of the Big Bang theory.

            Blind faith is what you have, and it’s ALL you have. You can call my support of scientific facts a religion all you like. It just shows that you don’t understand the difference between faith and actual knowledge.

          • Oboehner

            Then it was a piss poor “science” textbook teaching “scientific fact”.
            Blind faith is what you have, and it’s ALL you have. You can’t produce any scientific facts just religious belief. It just shows that you don’t understand the difference between faith and actual knowledge.

          • MisterPine

            Stop getting your info from bigots. You are the one with blind faith. I don’t put faith in anything until it’s tested and found to be true. You’re so stupid that you don’t know Catholics are Christians.

          • Oboehner

            Ahhh, you true ignorance shining brightly through.

            “I don’t put faith in anything until it’s tested and found to be true.” Except evolutionism of course.

          • MisterPine

            It’s not evolutionism, it’s evolution, and it is tested and true.

          • Oboehner

            Wake me when you have proof….. ZZZZZZ…..

          • MisterPine

            Wake yourself when you can acknowledge the truth of it.

          • Oboehner

            You’re in for a long sleep because it isn’t true – it’s just your religion. Don’t feel bad, I’m in for a long sleep as well because you’ll never prove it.

          • MisterPine

            I think you’ve been sleeping with your eyes open, upright and walking around for a very long time.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution

          • Oboehner

            Gotta love wikianyonecanchangeitpedia.

          • MisterPine

            It’s true anyone can edit on Wikipedia, but all the changes and discussion that takes place can also be viewed right on the same page, and if there is a discrepancy it is noted right on the same page. The point wasn’t to show Wikipedia as authoritative, the point was to show how off the mark you are in terms of everything being discussed.

            Speaking of which – and how very timely! – This showed up in my newsfeed yesterday. If this doesn’t do it for you then you are beyond help.

            http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/things-that-show-evolution-is-an-actual-fact#.stAwYBvj3

          • Oboehner

            *YAWN* nice religious piece. Which point do you want me to demonstrate the faith involved? Fossil record? I said it before, fossils only show something existed in does not prove that the fossilized creature is anything other than another extinct species, there is NO proof that said fossil “evolved” into anything else, it has to be taken on faith that it did – more religion.
            Anatomy? Genetics? Those things could also be evidence of a common designer, again you have to have faith that this even points to evolutionism – more religion.
            The majority of the rest of the religious story gives “evidence” as asinine as stating the photo I saw of a cat with its paws on the steering wheel of a car is proof that the cat ran over the flattened dog down the street.

          • MisterPine

            Well, maybe the thing to do is to let this pile of unscientific dung you’ve posted just sit and stink and fester, and we’ll let some of the people who understand the difference between religion and science give you the humiliation you have coming to you. I’m all for intelligent debate but you’re obviously having none of THAT, redefining words and moving the goalposts at your whim.

          • Oboehner

            “I’m all for intelligent debate” Could have fooled me, when are you going to start?
            “redefining words” When have I done that, or are you making crap up?
            I know the difference between religion and science, I have posted it repeatedly – that’s how I know evolutionism is religion. Science is observable and repeatable.
            Come up with some proof of your religion, not the same old crappy links you’ve been posting. I just want one shred of proof, I wait.

          • MisterPine

            Redefining words?

            What the hell does “evolutionism” mean?

            Religion:
            rəˈlijən/
            noun
            noun: religion
            the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
            How, based on this definition, is evolution (not “evolutionism”) a religion?

            Science is observable and repeatable, yeah, just like evolution. What’s the problem? It’s not a matter of faith. Science knows it’s there, that it exists.

            Last time I gave you proof you responded with a ***YAWN*** and not one single coherent response to show that you had understood one single thing you read. This is why I don’t want to play this ridiculous game with you. It’s a big internet out there, full of more proof than you could possibly want, but when you go through life with blinders on, you see what you want to see.

          • Oboehner

            Sorry, the definition I gave was verbatim from Merriam-Webster so that accusation doesn’t fly.
            So if evolution is observable and provable show me some bossie to blowhole, not more of your religious faith. The internet does not contain one shred of proof anywhere, far smarter people than you have tried and failed to find any, but go ahead show me one piece of irrefutable proof – I dare you.

          • MisterPine

            A definition for WHAT? “Evolutionism”? Try this on for size:

            http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evolutionist

            (Note that if you see no problem with citing Conservapedia, I see no issue with citing RationalWiki).

            You are demanding something that cannot be shown, but can be demonstrated in other ways. The problem is you neither comprehend evolution itself nor the explanations being given to you, and so your answer is to run away with your fingers in your ears going “la la la I can’t hear you”. You think you’re the first person to do this?

          • Oboehner

            Summary: Evolutionism is true because we said so!!
            The site should be changed to “petheticwiki”.

            “Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota of fact.”

            Dr. T. N. Tahmisian (Atomic Energy Commission, USA)

          • MisterPine

            Living Waters Publications (LWP) acts as an online store for Way of the Master.

            Their fact-checking department appears understaffed. For example, LWP has published tracts featuring a quote from a Dr. T. N. Tahmisian of the Atomic Energy Commission:

            “Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of
            life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the
            greatest hoax ever.”
            Not only is the opinion of a single nuclear scientist of
            questionable relevance, Dr. T. N. Tahmisian does not appear to be a real person.

          • Oboehner

            Cut and paste of questionable origin doesn’t prove your religion either.
            Let’s have one, just one, cold hard fact proving your religion, one.

          • MisterPine

            One? I’m still waiting for you to deal with the other 18 I have already given you. Maybe the problem you’re having is that in addition to having zero comprehension about evolution, you’re not so good with simple definitions, either. So you will spend all the time in the world trying to prove that something you want so desperately to call a religion isn’t a religion at all. That is why this is pointless. Your own religion has rendered you willfully ignorant of simple facts.

          • Oboehner

            Give me one fact, just one, I dare you. I already addressed the religious assertions you cut and pasted earlier. You appear to have a severe reading comprehension disability, I quoted the dictionary verbatim. Your religion has rendered you willfully ignorant of simple facts, yet full of excuses as to why you can’t come up with even one scientific proof your precious evolutionism isn’t just another religion. One, is it really that hard?

          • MisterPine

            You were not GIVEN religious assertions, you were given proven scientific facts which you sneered at, ignored, and re-branded as “religion” because you are not happy about the fact that you have been proven wrong. You were given many. The ball is quite squarely in your court.

          • Oboehner

            In the time you spend yammering on about what I was or was not given, you could have posted at least one irrefutable fact. You’re merely dancing around with lame accusations and excuses for your religion.
            Again, just one irrefutable scientific fact, just one.

          • Sientje Seinen

            well I dont believe in evolution but some people act like apes and have no conscience so therefore they must be spawns of satan who also is the father of lies.

          • Sientje Seinen

            the law reads “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind and soul, and your neighbour as yourselves. so why are you persecuting christians if you have so much love within you for your neighbour? It is love of money isnt it that motivates you to sue your neighbour.

          • MisterPine

            I have no patience for people who think their Christianity gives them the right to hate and oppress others. That’s all.

          • Sientje Seinen

            actually in the midievil ages before christianity homosexuality was rampant so was the slave trade in humans, and christians were thrown to the lions. you wish to evolve backwards?

          • MisterPine

            Homosexuality has never been “rampant”, it’s just always been. You can’t change it, it’s not an illness and it requires no cure.

      • CathNZ

        The word of God is eternal, that is true but does not change. What Moses said using parables our Lord said straight up what Moses said straight up the Lord used parables.

        1) Parable Leviticus 14:40-41, 43-45 NIV he is to order that the contaminated stones be torn out and thrown into an
        unclean place outside the town. [41] He must have all the inside walls of the house scraped and the material that is scraped off dumped into an unclean place outside the town. [43] “If the defiling mold reappears in the house after the stones have been torn out and the house scraped and plastered, [44] the priest is to go and examine it and, if the mold has spread in the house, it is a persistent defiling mold; the house is unclean. [45] It must be torn down—its stones, timbers and all the plaster—and taken out of the town to an unclean place. Truth Matthew 5:29-30 NIV If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. [30] And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

        Very clear since the law came through Moses, grace and TRUTH came through Jesus.

        2) Parable The good Samaritan characters are jews(Judah, Benjamin and the Levites and priests associated with them, samaritan(all Israel associated with Ephraim son of Joseph). All are brothers sons of Jacob but jews and samaritans don’t get along.

        Truth: What does Moses say Deuteronomy 22:4 NIV
        If you see your fellow Israelite’s donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet. Exodus 23:4-5 NIV “If you come across your enemy’s ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to return
        it. [5] If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help them with it. Which was what the Lord illustrated. Paul demonstrate this with Philemon and Onesimus.
        Numbers 15:30 NIV “ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes
        the Lord and must be cut off from the people of Israel. James 4:17 NIV If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them. No one is good except God. Good is not according to the world but the word.

        Now if you know your word, Moses and prophets used worldly illustrations for you to understand things of the Spirit. So you sure understand this Matthew 13:38 NIV
        The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom.The weeds are the people of the evil one, So you can’t sow the word of God and doctrine of the devil in the same field otherwise the people become corrupt.

        Now on slavery you know there are different kind of things that can result people being debted to you and the Lord taught us on forgiveness. Are you going to wait 7 years to cancel a debt or when you know the good you ought to do and cancel immediately. Would that not be putting the Lord to test, if He has put that in front of you to know your heart.

        Sabbath: Did the Israelites not march on the 7th day (Sabbath) around Jericho? Or Jehoiada the priest, did he not get rid of Athalia in 2Kings/2 Chronicles on the Sabbath and set up Joash as king.

        Was not Joseph plan to divorce Mary quietly considered a righteous man because his heart was right knowing she had to be stoned but also understood the things of the Spirit to be merciful.

        Moses gave you the law with earthly examples, but he also showed you how to be merciful. If you continue with your passages you would know that a man was not allowed to divorce or deprive the unloved woman of marital rights, but of course because of the hardness of man’s heart he gets divorced but the Lord devised ways of a man to be reconciled back to Him as some man do repent which the ancients understood. But man chooses otherwise and not live a Holy life by not obeying His commands 2 Samuel 14:14 NIV Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him.

        As a royal priesthood as Peter says you should know from the law how a priest ought to live and as the temple of the Lord you should know things that defile the temple leads to its destruction and burning down (by Chaldeans) an earthly example in OT for a Spiritual example in NT. Heaven and Hell clear as. John 3:6, 10, 12 NIV Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. [10] “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [12] I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

        Luke 16:31 NIV “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

      • Sientje Seinen

        As Jesus our Lord said “many are called but few are chosen” since you do not come to the Lord in faith or ask Him for understanding and insight into His Word, then how would you be able to interpret His Word, as the Holy scriptures were written by Holy men, inspired by the Holy spirit and is hidden to those who are to perish. Why would the Lord God say “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated?” Was it not because Esau was irreverent and did not harken to the Word of God? Christ is not an agent of sin, but came to redeem those whom believe He is the Messiah sent by God to call us to repentance and cleanse our hearts from wickedness, and no longer walk in the lusts of the flesh.

        • Kerrigan C

          Let’s hope when the day comes and he asks you how and who you brought to the understanding of the greatness of His Love….and then He asks you about this situation – that He agrees with the Holy works you think you are doing here in His name. Continue on …. you will be accountable so for your sake, I certainly hope that you’re right.

    • gregkliebigsr

      SAD, AIN’T IT ! THERE ARE THOSE IN THE HUMAN RACE WHO HAVE MADE THE WRONG DECISIONS AND IT WILL COST THEM !!
      BLESS YOU BRO. KEEP TELLING THE TRUTH!

  • Elat

    first off; Oprah has rejected marriage herself so how about discussing that? second, marriage is an institution made by God, it really doesn’t matter what Rob Bell thinks. He wants to go against what is explicitly condemned in the Bible, go ahead; but them please also officially leave the Church. Don’t preach in the name of Christ and deny what Jesus himself taught about what marriage is. And loneliness? Seriously… this is so superficial it’s unbelievable….

    • Kamike Serpantail

      Nothing was made by god. On the contrary, god was made by us. I think it’s time to stop believing in Santa Claus.

      • Nicy

        I am sooo sorry to read your posts. If you do not believe in God, which is really awful, is your call. Please, and again please stop writing atrocities like nothing was made by God or that Hitler was more moral that the God from the Bible, those are blasphemous words. Please be respectfull. My heart ache for your soul.

      • BlakeG

        While it would take an entire hour, and multiple books, to reply to this post, let me reply in brief:

        First of all- one would wonder, if you believe in nothing, why you are so passionate about interjecting yourself and attempting to persuade others of your own beliefs? Would not a true, I’m assuming, atheist, find no interest in things pertaining to others pursuing their own choice of belief? Is not your choice of believing in no god a form of belief?

        Now, to the point of man making up God…

        There are far too many points to make here, but to name a few:

        If there is no God where does your sense of morality come from? Where does right and wrong come from? Yes, there are laws, but where did the original thoughts for those laws come from? If our Moral Compass was not God inspired, and issues such as homosexuality were not condemned, then what stops other moral acts? Why would we not allow 50 year old men to marry 10 year old Children? Why would we not allow a man to marry a pig? You say it’s wrong… but why would we care what you would say if we were not held to a higher moral standard?

        Is there anyone in the world right now doing things you believe they should stop doing no matter what they personally believe about the correctness of their behavior?’ Doesn’t that mean that you do believe there is some kind of moral reality that is “there” that is not defined by us, that must be abided by regardless of what a person feels or thinks?’

        If we get our very identity, our sense of worth, from our political position, then politics is not really about, it is about US. Through our cause we are getting a self, our worth. That means we MUST despise and demonize the opposition. If we get our identity from our ethnicity or socioeconomic status, then we HAVE to feel superior to those of other classes and races. If you are profoundly proud of being an open-minded, tolerant soul, you will be extremely indignant toward people you think are bigots. If you are a very moral person, you will feel superior to people you think are licentious.

        It is not enough to simply claim about Jesus “It just couldn’t have happened.” You must face and answer all these historical questions: Why did Christianity emerge so rapidly, with such power? No other band of messianic followers in that era concluded their leader was raised from the dead—why did this group do so? No group of Jews ever worshipped a human being as God. What led them to do it? Jews did not believe in divine men or individual resurrections. What changed their worldview virtually overnight? How do you account for the hundreds of eyewitnesses to the resurrection who lived on for decades and publicly maintained their testimony, eventually giving their lives for their belief?

    • OldArkie

      They are of the Devil, and they hate God, Jesus, and Their commandments. If they loved Jesus, “ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15 “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Matthew 15:9

  • 14thkid

    Oprah is going to take a lot of people straight to hell with her.

    • TheButterThief

      Right…so Oprah, the most charitable and generous celebrity in the world, is going to hell, but you judgmental idiots are going to heaven?

      Man, the Romans had the right idea with you morons.

    • TheButterThief

      Right…so Oprah, the most charitable and generous celebrity in the world, is going to hell, but YOU are going to heaven?

      • Trevor Merrill

        So, what, your plan is to literally buy your way into heaven? Good luck with that…you are aware of the existence of this thing called “The Bible”, right? Maybe you should read it sometimes. Specifically the book of James…

        • TheButterThief

          LOL So donating to (and establishing new) charities is now considered buying your way into heaven? At the very least, she’s doing a lot more to make this world a better place than you are, chief.

          • Trevor Merrill

            First of all, how do you know ANYTHING about me? Do you work for the IRS or something and know my charity deductions or something?
            Second, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.
            Ephesians 2:8-9
            It’s literally one of the most basic principles of Christianity…

          • TheButterThief

            Interesting. So building schools and hospitals and donating literal millions to the Red Cross sends you to hell, but contributing your money to a casino in Tahoe is okay? Good to know.

            Are you guys still wondering why people are leaving the church in droves?

          • Trevor Merrill

            *facepalm* NO. The point is that salvation has NOTHING to do with what you do or where your money goes and has everything to do with belief and your heart. It’s not about you, it’s about God. You can invest money wherever you want and it doesn’t affect your eternal salvation. Deeds aren’t worthless, but if they don’t come from the right heart, they are irrelevant. Why are you on a Christian news site when you literally don’t know the first thing about Christianity? lol. Also, Christianity doesn’t care about our numbers, we aren’t a cult dependant on followers and revenue. Christianity will always exist because God will always exist. People can walk away from that as much as they want and it won’t change a thing. Christianity hasn’t ever changed and it will always be there.

          • TheButterThief

            “You can invest money wherever you want and it doesn’t affect your eternal salvation.” God’s cool with all of those donations you’ve made to NAMBLA, then?

          • Trevor Merrill

            I literally have no idea who they are, but I’m going to assume they’re bad…but once you have been given forgiveness and salvation, then yeah pretty much. It gets wiped clean. And if the change was genuine then you won’t want to do that anymore because your heart has been changed. You should really get your theological questions answered by a theologian or even The Bible though haha.

          • Jack Rohde

            Mostly in the Catholic church which is not true Christian.

          • Spoob

            Catholics are Christians, in fact they were the earliest Christians.

          • Trevor Merrill

            You are aware of the Disciples of Christ, right? lol. Pretty sure that THEY were the earliest Christians and they certainly did NOT follow BS Catholic traditions and teachings. Catholicism goes directly against the entire New Testament, which was written by the God-inspired direct followers of Jesus. Pretty sure that makes Catholicism a cult lol.

          • MisterPine

            Disciples of Christ are a Protestant sect started in 1801. Everything else you wrote just sounds like knee-jerk anti-Catholic crap.

          • Trevor Merrill

            *FACEPALM*. I was talking about the LITERAL disciples of Christ lol as in the apostles…you know, the original 12? Not entirely sure what was knee jerking about anything I said. Was any of it not factual? Because I literally just listed the beliefs of the Catholic church haha.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, the Catholics advertise that they go against the teachings of the new Testament? I don’t think so. That sounds like fundie malarkey. Also generally speaking cults don’t have over a billion members worldwide and they don’t date back 2000 years. Try again.

          • Trevor Merrill

            Right, because false prophets LOVE to point out that they’re lying to people lol. And I don’t know what you’re talking about, because there’s some super big and super old cults out there. So what, your validation is that a lot of people believe something, therefore it MUST be true? Wow, way to not use your own brain. I was merely pointing out all of the numerous ways that Catholicism BLATANTLY disregards the teachings of the Bible while saying they believe it. Mormons do the exact same thing. They say they believe the Bible, but then also in polygamy and becoming your own god and stuff, which is 100% not in the Bible. Here, I got an idea, let’s play a game. I’ll tell you a legitimate belief of the Catholic church that is utter nonsense and YOU back it up using ONLY the Bible. Let’s start with my favorite: The Pope is an infallible mouthpiece of God. Ready, set, GO!

          • MisterPine

            I’m saying if you want to use a word to insult Catholics which is clearly all you’re interested in doing here, you need to find a better word than “cult,” since Catholics are too old and too large to fit the criteria to make them a cult.

            Catholicism, if you’d study it a bit, doesn’t contradict the Bible, but Catholics aren’t “Bible only” Christians, they look to the Bible, church teachings and sacred tradition. So, three things, where you fundies use just one. Doesn’t make the Catholics wrong, in fact they were Christians for about 2000 years before you came along.

            The pope isn’t infallible, except when he sits ex cathedra which is approximately never.

            And I’m not a Catholic, I’m an agnostic. I just don’t like Christians who think they’re better than other Christians.

          • risingvoice

            Yeah… not so much. The earliest Christians were… surprise, surprise… just “Christians”… not “Roman Catholic”. Try to get your history of Christianity from a source other than the Catholic church.
            By the way, I’m not arguing about Catholics being truly “Christian” or not. That is not for me to judge.

          • MisterPine

            Are you serious? Every reputable history book out there will tell you the Catholics were the first. Along with the Orthodox.

          • Magister_militum_praesentalis

            Why is that, because Jack Rohde said so?

          • Colin Steinke

            This is a ridiculous claim. They may differ in their view of justification, but that does not make them “un-Christian.”

          • Trevor Merrill

            Not following the teachings of Christ, by definition, makes them un-Christian since to be Christian means to be a follower of Christ.

          • Colin Steinke

            How do you claim that Catholics don’t follow the teachings of Christ?

          • Trevor Merrill

            Penance and confession go directly against the teachings of Christ. Catholics believe that if you die without confessing every single sin, you’re basically screwed. This is not biblical at all since Christ died for all sins, past and present, and you only need to confess them once in your lifetime. Penance is also nonsense because it’s literally you working off your debt to God, which the Bible is very specific that there is nothing that man can do to pay off that debt. The Catholic church also teaches that the church itself is the source of salvation and not Jesus. It also teaches that you are supposed to confess your sins to the church rather than directly to God, again not Biblical. Catholics believe that Mary is on par with the trinity of God, which is elevating a human to the rank of deity, which is direct blasphemy. They believe that baptism saves a person, which is not biblical since it is merely symbolic and infant baptisms are heresy. Catholics believe the Pope in infallible, despite the fact that only God in infallible and no man can be. This final point actually literally makes Catholicism a cult since their faith is in a man they believe can do no wrong. I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

          • MisterPine

            Excuse me, I’m not even Catholic but what you’re spewing here is hate and nonsense.

            Confession is Biblical, in fact in the book of James it says to confess sins to one another. The church doesn’t teach that it is the source of salvation, it teaches that Jesus Christ is. Catholics don’t put Mary on par with God, they ask Mary to pray for them. Infant baptisms are not heresy, it says in the Bible that whole families were baptized, why would that be to the exclusion of infants (and it doesn’t say that anyway). Catholics don’t believe the pope to be infallible, only when he sits ex cathedra which is rare. Catholicism is not a cult because it has far too many people to be one and is far too old to be one. Your fundamentalist cult on the other hand is far more likely to fit the description. And Catholic churches have Bible studies, the one down the street from where I live has them. So you’re completely full of it, you’re a fundie who has been fed a line.

      • Larry Mccoy

        charitable and generous does not get you in to heaven it’s a free gift and the only way is through Jesus Christ and accepting Him as your Lord and saviour

        • TheButterThief

          If your god is that astonishingly petty (sentencing decent people to eternal damnation) I am absolutely proud and honored to blaspheme his rotten name.

          • Trevor Merrill

            Those “decent” people are self-absorbed and intentionally deny the existence of God. Why would he want people who don’t want anything to do with him? They want to be separated from God permanently, so that’s what he gives them. If you seek out the absence of God, you will most certainly find it. Forever. It’s called hell lol.

          • TheButterThief

            Your ‘lol’ at the end is my favorite, because you’re making light of eternal suffering. I’m sure God and Jesus both LOVE that, too, right?

      • Nicy

        Yes, you got it, because nobody gets save doing good things, it is only through Jesus! He is the only way!

      • BeckyJ

        Oprah’s money won’t get her into Heaven.

  • Armand Tetreault

    Mr Bell is not a Christian. He has created a god of his understanding this is not found in the bible.

    • Justin Larmore

      No true scotsman fallacy? Look it up…

      • Armand Tetreault

        I and the bible disagree with you Justin. Simply because you call it a fallacy doesn’t make it so. The Bible is very plain and unambiguous on the issue. Mr Bell has fallen outside biblical Christianity.

        • MisterPine

          According to your opinion of what biblical Christianity is, maybe. but you are not in a position to judge Mr. Bell.

        • Justin Larmore

          Surly if you can claim that someone is not a real Christian for not follow the anti-gay commandments, then you must believe that those who do not stone their disobedient teenagers, do not stone adulterers, do not stone people who work on sunday, and do not kill rape victims who do not speak out loud enough to be heard, are not real Christians?

          The fallacy I was mentioning refereed to the concept that you get to determine what a “true” christian is. In case you forgot or just didn’t know, there are over 30,000 denomination of Christianity alone. There are million of other Christians, from other denomination, that would say you are not a true Christian. This makes the statement meaningless and is illogical. To just say that a person is not Christian, just because you disagree with a single point is fallacious by definition,

          Also, by definition, the only criteria for being Christian is believing that Jesus Christ is lord and savior.

          • Armand Tetreault

            You are playing the oldest card in the book and trying to achieve a God as you want him to be and not as He is. The examples you stated were dealt with in the old testament by God and not prescriptive for us. But the issue of homosexuality was dealt with in the new testament and was prescriptive. So if you want to make up a God that will be what you want him to be choose Hinduism. Now as far as a Christian being one who only believes that Jesus is Lord. Consider that even Satan called Jesus Lord in Matthew 4. So I beg that you search your heart and ask for the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you. Or you can continue to your own eternal demise.

    • MisterPine

      Mr. Bell is in fact a Christian. We are in no position to judge him.

  • Gary

    The church I attend only endorses marriage as it is defined by God in the Bible: one man and one woman united as husband and wife. Only non-Christians accept ssm.

    • Paul Hiett

      You and your church can define marriage all you want, but it won’t mean a thing legally, which is all that matters.

      • Gary

        We don’t define marriage. We accept God’s definition of it. Those who think they can oppose God and get away with it are mistaken.

        • Paul Hiett

          Again, feel free to define marriage into whatever you want…God’s definition, if that’s what you want. Legally, what you think means nothing though, and that’s what matters.

          Literally, there’s nothing you can do.

          • Gary

            We can refuse to accept what the government does. And we will do that.

          • Paul Hiett

            But there’s still nothing you can do…you can’t prevent people from marrying. Sure, you can yell and scream and hold signs and hate them, but you can’t stop them.

          • Gary

            Maybe not right now. But that day will come.

          • Paul Hiett

            Once it’s a Federal law, you’re done.

          • Gary

            No. All federal laws are temporary.

          • Paul Hiett

            ROFL…that’s funny. You really think you’re going to get the US to adopt a Christian based set of laws?

            That’s hilarious.

          • Gary

            We will make them an offer they can’t refuse.

          • Paul Hiett

            Seeing as they’ve refused it so far, I’d say you’re doing nothing more than talking from your backside.

          • Gary

            Say whatever you want. For now.

          • Paul Hiett

            LOL, ok Gary. Don’t hold your breath.

          • Gary

            I don’t have to hold my breath.

          • Paul Hiett

            Because you know there’s nothing you can do about this.

          • Gary

            Because I know that changes are coming. Changes that I will like very much. And that you will hate.

          • Paul Hiett

            And what changes do you think those are?

          • Gary

            ssm will be eliminated and will be illegal. All existing ssm will be voided.

          • Paul Hiett

            I see. And how do you think you’re going to get the USSC to overturn this? You don’t even have the support now you need…and it dwindles even further every day across the nation.

          • Gary

            The USSC is temporary. They will not make the decision.

          • Paul Hiett

            I see, and when, exactly, do you think the USSC will no longer exist?

          • Gary

            I can’t say exactly. But I’m pretty certain it will happen in the next 5-20 years.

          • Paul Hiett

            ROFL…ok Gary. 2000 years and counting, and you think we’re in the end times. Yeah, no one else has ever predicted the end times over the last 2000 years either.

          • Gary

            Happily, the future does not depend on your agreement.

          • Paul Hiett

            Nor does it depend on your belief system.

          • Gary

            It depends on what God will do. And God has already said what that is. That is how I know ssm is temporary.

          • Paul Hiett

            You believe, but you don’t know. No one does. We won’t know until it happens, and after 2000 years, I’m not exactly worried about it.

            So yeah, you can scream and wail and gnash your teeth all you want, but believing in something doesn’t make it any more truthful.

          • Gary

            The Bible is either true, or not, regardless of whether anyone believes it. You need for it to not be true because if it is true, you are in big trouble.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s correct, it’s either true, or it isn’t. However, there’s nothing in the Bible that’s ever been proven to be true…none of the “stories”, that is. More and more evidence continues to be found proving that much of the Bible simply either didn’t happen, or couldn’t have (Exodus and the Flood, for example).

            Furthermore, the odds of any one particular belief being correct is astronomical, considering all of the possibilities. It’s not about me vs you, or Christianity vs atheism…it’s about the odds of all known possibilities and unknown possibilities vs each other.

            Not only do you need to contend with the other 42,000 denominations of your own religion, but you have over 4200 other religions as well, not to mention the ideas that we haven’t considered yet either. All have equal merit, since none of them can be proven false.

          • Gary

            I disagree. I won’t waste time trying to prove to you why you are wrong because I don’t care what you believe.

          • Paul Hiett

            You can’t prove me wrong, that’s just it. I think you know it too.

          • RW Goodwin

            Actually people like you will be the ones gnashing their teeth…

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re entitled to believe what ever you want to believe. Regardless, your opinion is not rooted in anything factual, so please forgive me if fail to give it any credence.

          • Rose

            Actually, both sides (Atheism and Christianity) have an equal amount of ‘facts’, you just have to know where to research. The difference is that you can have a spiritual experience with God any time today, but you can’t view the big bang again. And truth be told, when you think about it, both ideas about how the world came into existence both seem far fetched, but they’re significantly different so we naturally adopt which belief we think is more ‘logical’. Of course, nothing changes the fact that God is very much real and is alive. Moreover I’d like to ask why you argue these things so intently as though you’re waiting for Gary to make a good argument. Are you waiting for us to prove that we’re right and that it’s not just opinionated?

          • TheBBP

            You’ve given him too much time, brother Gary.

          • Gary

            Just having a little fun.

          • Sunnysmom

            Totally ROFL..how they can’t see that as the equivalent of Sharia Law I don’t know.

          • tekwrite

            Ya mean the ones it was FOUNDED on? Bahaha to you.

          • Rose

            And they say Christians don’t have a sense of humor. Lolz XD

          • Renee S

            I think you are missing the point. There are all manner of laws Christians find Biblically corrupt. The laws of the government won’t change God’s laws. So, the government can legalize anything they wait. The average society lasts about 2 centuries. God’s kingdom will last forever. His law is eternal. The laws pased on gay marriage have absolutely no impact on me. The legal definition of marriage can be changed at any time, but those who answer to a higher power do not have to accept it as sinless. Might have to deal with it daily, but you can’t force a person’s beliefs to change based on a society closing in on its expiration date. The point is we live IN this world, but we are not of it and do not have to conform to its many perversions. Homosexuality is a sin like any other, so no I do not hate homosexuals. I don’t hate liars or gossips or thieves. Sin is sin. I sin every day, but every day I try harder. So, what the government does is NOT the end-all that forces Christians to accept something as RIGHT. Legal and right are sometimes antithetical.

          • tekwrite

            Ahhh there is the H word again! You forgot bigot, racist, and angry old white men! More liberal training for you!

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you deny that you hate gay people?

          • Skalamoosh

            disagreeing is not hating. You can love and not support someone’s choice.. As an example: you could love a drug addict, and in loving them, not buy them drugs to enable their addiction. You still love the person but don’t agree with their lifestyle or choice.

          • Justin Larmore

            Yeah, these want to limit and deny their freedoms because they love them! Just like how god wants to torture you because he loves you. And just like how Hitler did what he did out of love.. If you can’t tell it’s all about love and not hate, then your the crazy one right?

          • BlakeG

            Let me ask you this… if we decide to forgo God’s definition of marriage, which by virtue means forgoing God’s law, where does our Moral Compass land? Where do our Moral Laws come from? Our sense of right and wrong?

            To elaborate. If we let go of the laws God created, then what hold our Moral Compass in right standing?

            If tomorrow Homosexuality becomes legal, because it’s the law and not because of any higher moral authority, then what stops next week a 50 year old man marrying a ten year old girl? What stops next month accepting the fact that a man can love anyone he wants no matter the age? You say that’s wrong but why? If you have no moral authority then all you have to hold on to is the law… which is ever changing.

            Let me say it this way – Is there anyone in the world right now doing things you believe they should stop doing no matter what they personally believe about the correctness of their behavior?’ Doesn’t that mean that you do believe there is some kind of moral reality that is “there” that is not defined by us, that must be abided by regardless of what a person feels or thinks?’

      • Sandy Buchanan

        Paul, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He doesn’t change, people do. We are all sinners but Christians are to be Christ like and walk in their salvation. God will perfect us when He takes us. I, for one, will not sugar coat the language of God. We are to love the people, hate the sin. For me, I talk about this in the hope that a person will want to turn around their sinful nature. Time is getting short….Jesus will return first for the dead in Christ, then the faithful Church. He gave us free will and you could believe anything you want. I just pray that God continues to change me so that His Will and His Ways will be mine. God loves us and wants all of us. You have made up your mind and that is your choice, Paul. God also teaches us what to do in all situations and I’m proud to be called a Child of God. God comes before any man and any country. Have a blessed day.

        • Paul Hiett

          Do you accept that only God can judge others?

          • Skalamoosh

            Typical liberal thinking: disagreement = judgment and hate
            God is judge, but that doesn’t mean a Christian should support or condone sin.

          • Colin Steinke

            Skalamoosh, disagreement in this sense is judgment as portrayed by so many comments here. If you think that you must be conservative to be Christian, I would ask you to go read the Gospels again.

          • Skalamoosh

            Do you even read, Bra? I didn’t say anything about Christianity = Conservatism. I’m just making the point that liberals are always the biggest preachers of “Love and acceptance” but are the most hateful towards anyone that doesn’t agree with them. Always under the assumption that if you don’t agree you hate.

      • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

        This entire controversy hinges on trying to resolve a civil definition of marriage with the scriptural one. The solution is obvious: get churches out of the business of signing marriage licenses. Everyone, including Christians, will have to get a marriage license solemnized by a civil official to satisfy the state. Then the couple can get married in the eyes of God in whatever church they choose. If the church gets into a wrestling match with this godless culture, we will be the ones contaminated (as we have already seen). We’re not going to sanctify the world.

        • Paul Hiett

          Actually, churches don’t give out marriage licenses…what happens in the church is just ceremony only. This is why it means nothing to allow gays to marry.

          To be clear though, I don’t support any claim by any gay/lesbian couple that they be forced to allow to marry in a church. That infringes upon religious rights, in my opinion.

          But beyond that, gays marrying affects no one negatively, least of all religion, and as such, folks really should just let it go and move on with their lives.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I agree with most of what you said but you misread part of my post. I never said churches “give out” marriage licenses. I agree that forcing a church to marry a gay couple infringes on religious freedom, but that is obviously not much of a defense these days.

            The problem that arises is one of public accommodation. The courts ultimately will rule that churches are public accommodations and therefore cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. So the answer is to ensure that we do not discriminate by refusing to solemnize ANYONE’S marriage certificate. Yes, in the eye’s of the civil courts, marriage is just a ceremony. But a signed and witnessed marriage license is a binding legal document. The church need not and cannot be forced to execute a legal document under duress. Let the government handle their part. Let the church get entirely out of the civil marriage business.

          • Colin Steinke

            This is patently false. The court will not rule that churches are public accommodations.

            A coffee shop and a church are very different things.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I agree with you that churches are not public accommodations, but I disagree as to how the courts will ultimately view us. In Canada ministers are being charged with hate crimes for preaching the Gospel. Consider that a bellwether and don’t underestimate the depth of anti-Chritian sentiment in the US.

          • Colin Steinke

            Do you have proof of this?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Proof of what? That there is anti-Christian sentiment in the US, or that Canadian ministers are being prosecuted? The first is overwhelmingly obvious. The second is well documented. Google “Stephen Boissoin chalcedon” for a taste of the climate up north.

          • Colin Steinke

            There would be far less “anti-Christian sentiment,” as you put it, if more Christians were actually Christ-like.

            I think that your “anti-Christian sentiment” is a bit of conjecture, however.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Fish don’t think they’re wet, do they?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            And it is a shame that Christians aren’t more Christ-like. The vitriolic tone of the comments on this site are proof enough of that.

          • Colin Steinke

            It is a shame. You also assume that I do not identify as Christian due to my comment. The anti-Christian sentiment felt comes from the fact that being Christian is more about politics and agenda than the compassion based teachings of Christ. The U.S. is overwhelmingly Christian in a very western way. Over 78% of the population identify as Christian.

            To assume that the U.S. is anti-Christian is simply fallacious. However, the more vocal fundamentalist Christians would lead you to believe that their entire livelihood has been threatened because the entire world doesn’t believe in the (relatively new idea of) inerrancy of Scripture and how to interpret it.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I’m not a fundamentalist and I agree that it is the culture war that is bringing out the ugliest in evangelicals. However, I could cite example after example of a strong cultural bias against devout Christians. I don’t because this site doesn’t allow embedded URLs and I frankly don’t have the time right now. I would be happy to carry on this discussion in full depth on my blog. Google “blogspot bbcatholics” and you should be able to find me. This will be my last post to this thread. See you there, I hope.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Spot on with the observation that the concept of inerrancy is relatively recent. Actually, a better description would be “literalism” but I believe we are discussing the same thing.

            I believe it stems from a reaction to the higher textual criticism that arose in the 18th and 19th centuries. There are many people who accept the truth of scripture without having to read all of it literally. There are others who believe that if any part of the Bible were not literally true then the entire thing would come down like a house of cards. That seems to be the guiding principle of this site.

            I also agree that the population of the U.S. overwhelmingly identifies as Christian. I really should have said that the opinion-shapers are overwhelmingly hostile to Christianity. To paraphrase Michael Medved, in Hollywood there are only two ways Christians are represented: either stupid or evil. Sadly, the media love to focus on evangelical fools and hypocrites and ignore the millions more who are sensible, intelligent and genuinely loving.

            I do apologize for assuming that you do not identify as a Christian. My repsonse was hasty and ill-considered.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            And I said “charged” not “convicted.” Yet.

    • Thomas Vansant

      Doesn’t the Bible define marriage as between one man and as many wives as he can afford? Aren’t most of the Patriarch’s polygamists?

    • Seminary

      I think you mean they would have to define it as the Bible does by embracing a wife with concubines (Abraham, Nahum, Gideon, Jacob, Solomon, etc), one man with lots of wives, also known as polygamy (Lamech, Esau, David, Solomon again, Abijah, Gideon again, etc), the marriage between a rapist and their victim (Deut. 22:28-29), women who are prisoners of war and the soldiers who capture them (Numbers 31:18), should I go on with the Old Testament examples. Perhaps it would be better to just look at the New Testament where the thought is don’t marry if you aren’t already married (1 Corin. 7:27).

      Or maybe, just maybe, we can stop being jerks about it and see our God as the loving creator who made each of us and loves all of God’s children equally. Also, way to go “Christian” News Network. See I can use “quotes” to show I “disagree” with something too. Sloppy writing, sloppy comment. God’s love is bigger than all y’alls hate.

      • Paul Hiett

        I truly wish more people held your outlook.

      • Gary

        As far as I can tell, only marriage between one man and one woman is approved by God. And even then, both have to qualify.

        • Seminary

          Sorry. But you’re wrong. David is a man after God’s own heart after all. Yet he is polygamous (and a rapist, so that’s fun). Solomon is the wise king, but he had 1,000 wives and concubines. Abraham was righteous before God, but he didn’t just have his one wife. Moses orders the Israelites to kill all non-virgins they conquer but keep the virgins for their own sexual and marital needs. But all of this doesn’t really matter because what Biblical marriage is really talking about is a man buying a woman from her father. Marriage is an economic exchange in which women are treated like property without any right to say no. It is decided by her father. Turns out, we’ve moved beyond a Biblical account of marriage because it’s pretty messed up.

          But I suppose you want actual evidence that one man and one woman isn’t the only acceptable marriage. A man is required, by law, to marry his brother’s widow regardless of his marital status. Therefore, if he’s already married and his brother dies, he must marry the widow and have two wives. Easy arithmetic.

          The Bible is a complex and often contradictory book. Let’s not forget that Jesus approved of self castration instead of marriage. And, again, Paul’s command that Christian’s shouldn’t marry so long as they can keep it in their pants. Are you married? Are you only married because you were to weak to stay celibate like Paul told you, or to weak to castrate yourself like Jesus said to do? Or, perhaps, should the unique cultural expressions from thousands of years ago be taken with a grain of salt today so that we don’t stone our friends for not living in that culture?

          By the way, Jesus isn’t the only person in the New Testament who encourages self castration. Paul does as well, but for a different reason. Paul’s reasoning is that people who get circumcised bind themselves to the old law, and to do such a thing, it would be better for them if they just castrated themselves. So if you want to hold yourself to the old law as a Christian, you should really take a page out of Galatians and cut the whole thing off. Or you can move forward in the love of Christ with the rest of us. That path is always open and available to you.

      • Colin Steinke

        *high five*

    • Justin Larmore

      Does that mean only non- Christians don’t stone disobedient teenagers, adultery, and people who work on sunday? Or maybee it’s a case of The no true scotsman fallacy.

  • Steve67

    Given that when Rob Bell speaks of “the church” he’s speaking of a “church” that does not believe in hell, embraces same-sex “marriage”, believes the resurrection was spiritual, and rejects the importance of essential doctrines then, as far as I am concerned, he can keep speaking about this “church” because whatever “church” it is, it is not the one, holy, apostolic Christian church.

    • tim

      ” believes the resurrection was spiritual” – Hi Steve can you point me the direction of where he said this, i am aware of the others but have not heard this claim before. thanks

      • jmichael39

        While I’ve seen a video by Bell about the power of “resurrection” and read one of his sermons, I’m not really sure I can tell whether he believes in a literal resurrection. It would seem he does, but then there are moments I wonder if he thinks it matters whether he does or not.

    • chris

      Yes, he meant the Church of Satan! How can anyone be surprised about all these? The Bible clearly tells us that In the end,false prophets,teachers etc would arise with the sole aim of deceiving those that believe. Rob Bell is just revealing who truly he is and many more so-called men of God will be exposed. Let him who

  • NNNNNNNNNNoooClintonplz

    the church and the Bible will never be irrelevant. You may need to go get yourself a Koran and speak for that. Because my God means what he says and says what he means and YOU Rob Bell or any other false shepherd will not change it. NOR you Oprah.

    • Paul Hiett

      Out of curiosity, when the USSC rules that SSM is a Federal law, does that really change anything for you?

      • TheBBP

        How on God’s Green Creation do you think that the Supreme Court could change our opinion about the Creator of the Universe?

        • Paul Hiett

          Just curious what you think will happen once SSM is legalized across the country. You clearly don’t like it, but once it’s done, then what?

          • TheBBP

            What the supreme court does has no effect on my relationship with God or my eternity with Him. It has zero effect on my beliefs.

          • Paul Hiett

            Right, so what does it matter if SSM is legalized?

          • TheBBP

            You mean besides the fact that not only is it morally reprehensible, but it violates nature’s law, denies children either a father or mother and most importantly is patently offensive to our Creator?

          • Paul Hiett

            First and foremost, it doesn’t matter whether or not your “creator” is offended. You have no proof either way of that, to say the least, and is not a factor at all.

            As to whether it’s morally reprehensible is nothing more than a matter of opinion. You think it is, others think it isn’t. It’s nothing more than an opinion at this point.

            In regards to your comment about denying a child a father or mother, I don’t see how that can be true. Many gay couples adopt, btw. Would you rather see that child suffer away in orphanages, or passed around from foster home to foster home when a perfectly good gay couple would love that child as their own?

          • Belasaurius

            WRONG. Their proof dat God is mad is in da Bible, in da old part written by sheepherders, who frankly, when not receiving divine words, were screwing the sheep.

          • Gary

            God’s anger is referenced in the new part too. You can’t avoid it.

          • Belasaurius

            too bad I can’t avoid you pudsucker

          • tekwrite

            LOVE to see you when you KNEEL before your Creator! With a one way ticket to Hell.

          • Belasaurius

            so you’re looking forward to people being tortured for eternity? What kind of sick twisted religion evokes happiness at the thought of other peoples suffering?

          • Larry Mccoy

            God does not want anyone going to Hell he made hell for the devil and his angels. but God is a Holy God can not be in the presents of sin. and also God does not send anyone to hell they send their selves there. because they reject Him and His word

          • Justin Larmore

            That’s sick twisted religion is called Christianity and there come from the teachings of Jesus christ.. Remember ..Matthew 10:34: “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

          • Guest

            Bible… prooof…..try again

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I agree somewhat. I’ve often thought about how many fewer abortions and foster children there might be if gay couples adopted more. Sadly, my experience in the gay community is that among men such couples are the exception. Without taking a position one way or other on the issue of gay marriage for the moment, it’s the inherent narcissism in male gay relationships that troubles me. Lesbians seem more likely to adopt but probably no more than any other childless couple.

          • Jack Rohde

            I’D RATHER BE IN AN ORPHANAGE IF THEY LET ME CHOSE BETWEEN DOGIE HOWSER AND HIS NAMBLA BOYFRIEND WHO KNOWS WHAT PAYOFFS THEY ARE DOING IN HOLLYWOOD, LOOK AT THE BRITISH PEDOPHILE RING IN BRITIAN IT’S GETTING PAIDOFF RIGHT AS WE SPEAK, AND I BET YOU NEVER EVEN HEARD OF IT.

          • Guest

            You have any evidence to back up your claims? Didn’t think so…. First off, morality is objective…… Second, neither you, nor any other believer in god, has been able to demonstrate its existence so your baseless assertion in reference to his existence is meaningless. Natures law? You mean how homosexuality is found in thousands of other species and homophobia is only found in one?

          • Justin Larmore

            You have any evidence to back up your claims? Didn’t think so…. First
            off, morality is not objective…… Second, neither you, nor any other
            believer in god, has been able to demonstrate its existence so your
            baseless assertion in reference to his existence is meaningless. Natures
            law? You mean how homosexuality is found in thousands of other species
            and homophobia is only found in one?

          • kim

            Paul, what matters is that sin separates us from God…all sin, including homosexuality. I read a great article that explained why homosexuality sin was so much more dangerous that other sins. Most people still condemn stealing, murder, lying, drunkenness, adultery…none of us are proud of these acts. Only homosexuality has been given a pass by those, the gay lobbyist, who are trying to twist Gods Word as to what sin is and what is natural. God told us these sins were not his best for us and we know that to be true whenever we reap the consequences of disobeying Gods Word…so many people and families are deeply hurt by these acts God described as sin. But there is forgiveness and restoration when we confess these sins and turn aside from them. When society is falsely convinced that a sin, homosexuality, isn’t sin any longer, than there is no desire to seek God’s restoration nor He’s best for us. Add to this the fact that by “normalizing” this behavior there will be very few prayers sent up on behalf of sinners by Christians who now proclaim that God’s word was wrong! He didn’t mean this act to be called sin….and we, Christians, who believe God’s Word is true, that
            this Word doesn’t change every time society says it has to, will be called hate-filled bigots and much worse which isn’t true at all. True love is hard and there is no truer love than to continually pray that our brother’s and sister’s eyes will be opened
            to God’s truth….

          • robyn Hefferan

            Thank you for this loving response, it is not good t get into slinging matches, we should pray that God will open eyes to His truth and Love.

          • kim

            Amen, Robyn! Thank you…

          • Larry Mccoy

            you put it well kim God bless you

          • Justin Larmore

            Whether you like it or not there are going to be many people who don’t believe in your god, your version of your god, or any god at all. What is the issue with allow others the freedom of choice? How can you expect religious freedom when you try to limit the freedoms of others. If you support the limitations of ssm freedoms then you must also support the limitations of religious freedoms as well, unless of course hypocrisy is rampant.

          • tekwrite

            What a person does in his bedroom is between him and God. But when they call Christians names, sue Christian bakers and photographers, march their sin through street parades, and try to indoctrinate our children (Susy has two mommies), then I DRAW the line.

          • Paul Hiett

            I find it somewhat ironically funny that you use the word indoctrination in a negative connotation here.

          • Justin Larmore

            Right.. They clearly just represented the fact that it has no effect on them and their beliefs yet they still want to attack the freedoms of other individuals who want ssm. How could you possibly want or expect religious freedoms when you actively try to oppress others freedoms?

          • lynn

            The way things are going right now, the radical mooslams will take control of this country and there will be no one to enter ssm.

      • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

        Tread lightly there, Paul. The USSC doesn’t make laws. It interprets the Constitution. It may be able to strike down the DOMA, but it could easily reverse itself in the future. There is nothing settled in jurisprudence, ever.

    • Justin Larmore

      When are you gonna start stoning disobedient teenagers, adulterers, and those who work on Sundays? God means what he says right? Or is it just you and other Christians who choose to cherry pick what teachings they want to follow?

  • Jay Mark

    He is offering his opinion and does not speak for Christians.

    • Paul Hiett

      Not all, obviously, but he does speak for some, just as you don’t speak for all Christians either.

      • TheBBP

        I guess that depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of “Christian”. He certainly does not speak for Christian’s who’s beliefs and standards are Biblically based upon the Word of God.

        • Paul Hiett

          There are 42000 denominations. Please, tell me which one is right…

          • TheBBP

            Pastors, churches and congregations are essential parts of the Christian’s life. However, the only “right” thing is the Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Anyone or anything teaching you otherwise is false.

          • Paul Hiett

            So looking at Roxann’es comment above, you’d say she is not a Christian, right?

          • TheBBP

            Why would I say that?

          • Paul Hiett

            Did you read her comment?

          • TheBBP

            What about her comment? She eluded to the fact that he is leading people to hell.

          • Paul Hiett

            Obviously you didn’t read her entire comment, or you simply suffer from a lack of reading comprehension. She said, very clearly, that people who go to church are going to hell.

          • TheBBP

            It appears that I too have given you too much time. If you think that she wasn’t talking about how following his teachings will lead to Hell then you are just trolling for a reaction.

            Proverbs 19:21 ESV
            Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

            Romans 14:11 ESV
            For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”

          • Paul Hiett

            She said, and I quote…”we the believer are the ‘Church’ he is Poster BOY for why i do not GO to
            them Haunts Called Church! if ya wish to die and enter Hell follow that
            foolishness”

            Use your remedial reading comprehension abilities and tell me what she is saying about people who go to church?

          • Sunnysmom

            So 67% of the rest of the people on the planet (i.e. non-Christians) are wrong? How boring to have that kind of purported certainty in your life.

        • RW Goodwin

          Some people are SO deceived… I really feel sorry for them – They have not a clue…

        • Spoob

          ALL Christian churches are Biblically based on the word of God. You are merely saying that you feel superior to the ones who don’t do it to the same degree or in the same manner you do. The “Bible based Christian” phrase is just snobbery and arrogance and one-upmanship.

      • Jay Mark

        Really? Let’s see if you can give a responsible answer… Which Christians does he nrepresent?

        • Paul Hiett

          Gee, I don’t know…those people who attend his services and agree with him? There are some commenting here already.

          • Jay Mark

            Responsible? Hardly.

  • Roxanne Ask Me Will YOU

    such an Apostate – we the believer are the ‘Church’ he is Poster BOY for why i do not GO to them Haunts Called Church! if ya wish to die and enter Hell follow that foolishness

  • DeanCoz

    I’m thinking of Francis Schaeffer’s excellent little book THE CHURCH BEFORE THE WATCHING WORLD.

  • papi_carte

    Just another confirmation on apostasy and the great falling away of the last days as written in the bible. May God have mercy om their souls and be awakened before its too late in Jesus’ name.

  • Scotty Mcwilliams

    Rob Bell has not rejected God in anyway. Faith and Reason goes together and as a Christian myself, I don’t believe God sends people to hell, people send themselves to hell with their love for worldly things. Gay or Straight has nothing to do with Christianity.

    • TheBBP

      You can provide biblical references to all of that mess you just posted?

  • RW Goodwin

    I fear Bell has already been turned over to a reprobate…

  • EyeOfTheBeholder

    The below comments proves to me why so many people want nothing to do with the Christian church, because Christians can be such a bunch of hateful biggots. Calling Rob Bell all kinds of nasty names, why? Because he embezzled church funds? Because he cheated on his wife? No, simply because he has a conviction that differs from yours. I have followed Rob Bells work for a long time and he is a real, sincere person and he knows and understands the Bible better than most of his critics

    • Sunnysmom

      Rob Bell is the only version of Christianity I would consider listening to. He is a wonderful soul who shows love, acceptance and kindness to everyone.

      • Frank

        He isn’t a Christian.

        • Sunnysmom

          If what passes for Christian is what is represented on 90% of this thread, I’d follow Rob Bell any day and twice on Sunday.

          • Gary

            Follow Rob right into Hell.

          • Paul Hiett

            Wow…one Christian condemns another Christian to hell for simply having a different opinion.

            And you wonder why atheism is growing as fast as it is…

          • Gary

            She is not a Christian. Neither is bell.

          • Sunnysmom

            Gary’s right Paul, I’m not a Christian. I’ve tried, believe me. But every time I attend a Christian church and they start in on judgment, fear, and their own condemnations I run screaming. The last one I tried made me literally sick to my stomach.

            Do I believe in a God? Yes. Am I an amazing human being who believes in love, kindness, forgiveness and acceptance of God’s creation. Yes. Am I going to hell for that…we’ll see. lol I’m not afraid and I won’t live my life in fear of condemnation for loving. Period.

          • Paul Hiett

            So…Jewish? Or, do you believe in Jesus and his story?

            Don’t get me wrong, I know how many religions and variations of religions exist, just curious as to which you subscribe to?

          • Sunnysmom

            I’m on a open-minded, new-age spiritual journey right now quite frankly. Honestly, what appeals to me most is Buddhism, and a Unitarian or Unity type church if I were to attend services. I believe Jesus existed..was he the son of God sent to save us? I don’t know. The bible confuses me, and makes me mad a lot of the time..hence the reason for even being on here because I am a huge support of LGBT issues. I read a lot of Pema Chodron and I have read Rob Bell’s book “Love Wins” after I lost a couple family members in a violent act. Bottom line: I can’t prove anyone’s beliefs right or wrong..I can only say what speaks to me. Love, kindness, community and acceptance of God’s creations speak loudest.

          • Paul Hiett

            I really wish more people had your outlook on this issue.

          • Gary

            You don’t get your beliefs from the Bible. And you don’t believe in the God of the Bible. Your religion seems to be one that you have designed yourself, and the god you say you believe in is also your creation.

          • Sunnysmom

            You’re so funny. So there’s nothing in the bible about those topics I mentioned? I love the parts of the bible that support my feelings of loving kindness towards humanity and God’s creation. I think that’s called cherry-picking ;-).

          • Gary

            Sure, there is a lot in the Bible about love, kindness, etc.. But that is far from the whole message. Part of the truth isn’t enough. What about your sin?

          • Paul Hiett

            There’s a lot in the Bible I’m sure you don’t follow either…

          • Sunnysmom

            Well, that’s really the center of our disagreement. What is sin and what isn’t; who judges and decides; and what happens to our souls after our physical bodies die. I simply cannot believe in everything the bible says on these topics. I can’t look at this vast world where only roughly 33% subscribe to Christianity and say that’s the only way path to God.

          • Frank

            Get to know Jesus as He is not according to your preconceived wishes or ideas.

      • BeckyJ

        You’re a fool. But got ahead and blindly follow the blind. Your loss.

        • Sunnysmom

          You know nothing of me. Very Christian of you to call me names though. I don’t live my life in fear and there is no loss to me. Fear robs us of living the lives God intended for us.

        • Sunnysmom

          You know nothing of me. But how Christian of you to call me names. I don’t live my life in fear so I have nothing to lose…no loss here. Peace BeckyJ

          • BeckyJ

            I know some about you by the stupid comment I replied to. No fear here either dear and with that attitude towards Bell I’d say you have a few loose screws. So a definite loss for you dear.

          • Sunnysmom

            Lol Wow, just wow. I have said nothing nasty to you as a human being and you’ve totally judged me just because I think Rob Bell is a solid human being with love and compassion towards others. Just because I don’t subscribe to your same belief system I have screws loose. Whatever..as I said before, peace to you.

    • TheBBP

      No, he understands how to sell a brand of Christianity that gets him paid to people who are unwilling to or are too scared to open their own Bibles to find the truth. He is no better than the wolves that call themselves Faith Healers or the wolves in the tabernacle over at TBN.

      Open your Bible. Read it in context, not just the snippets that he wants to lead you to. There is no way that you could not see his heresy if you do.

      • Paul Hiett

        And this, folks, is why there are over 42,000 denominations of Christianity.

      • Sunnysmom

        Every pastor of every church understands how to sell their own brand of Christianity to get paid. lol You don’t know if Rob Bell is wrong, you choose to judge him based on your own interpretation of the bible.

        • TheBBP

          The Holy Bible says he is wrong. That is the only authority that I need to judge him by. But you are welcome to refute that with the Bible if you wish to. Show me anything that is supportive of sexual sin and immoral relationships. Also show me the part of the Bible that says that it was just kidding about Hell.

          In context.

          • Paul Hiett

            Show me the part of the Bible you can prove to be true…with supporting facts external to the Bible.

          • Sunnysmom

            The Holy Bible says a lot of things, many of which are felonies today. Am I to assume you advocate those as well? Look, I support yours and everyone’s right to believe as they wish. But we don’t live in a theocracy and nobody has the right to tell two consenting adults who they can marry. If your problem with that is biblical, pray for their soul when you bow your head at night if you must…but otherwise it doesn’t concern you.

          • Gary

            God has the right to tell people who they can marry. You are ignoring that. It is evident you don’t believe the Bible, or consider it to be holy.

          • Paul Hiett

            God also says to stone adulterers. Do you agree?

          • Paul Hiett

            One more thing, BBP…you just said you use the Bible to judge him.

            Do you know what Matthew 7:1 says?

          • TheBBP

            Paul, you are overly predictable in going down your list of anti-Christian talking points. I do know what Matthew 7:1 says as I have actually studied it. The problem with your more than commonly-used attacks on Christians is that it is without context. Just the same as the heresy that Rob Bell teaches. he cherry picks feel-good themes to sell to the masses who do not want to be harassed by things like sin and the responsibility thereof.

            Christians are often accused of “judging” whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses that state, “Do not judge.” There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise—with careful discernment (John 7:24). When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically.Matthew 7:2-5declares, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.

            In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for his sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is his Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with his sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope—and with the ultimate goal—of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20) and restoration to the fellowship. We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God’s Word says about sin.2 Timothy 4:2instructs us, “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction.” We are to “judge” sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences—the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

            Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html#ixzz3S8KdyElL

          • Doug Truitt

            TheBPP, the point in Matthew 7 is that we are blind to the extent of our own sin and how grievous it is to God. Jesus is telling us to deal with our own sin, not our neighbors. It’s the Pharisees who have deceived themselves into thinking that by their Godly lifestyle they have dealt with their own sin and are fit to judge others. By doing so they incur Christ’s wrath.

      • EyeOfTheBeholder

        Tell me this, why does the God of the Bible condone slavery, human trafficking, genocide etc but yet he seems to have this massive problem with homosexuality? What kind of a God is this?

  • April J

    So you’re all ok with these types of marriage though?

    • Paul Hiett

      Gay marriage harms no one, but unfortunately that doesn’t stop these folks from wanting to make sure those harmless marriages never happen.

      • Sunnysmom

        I will never understand why these people care so much about who two consenting adults love and choose to enter into a social contract with. They’re entitled to their beliefs and I support their right to voice it, but it stops where it interferes with my body and life’s happiness.

        • Gary

          If you would call it a “social contract” instead of marriage, you likely would find you have much less opposition. Marriage has a certain meaning, and we don’t want that changed. I don’t care who you want to have your stuff if you die, or who you want to visit you in the hospital. But I do care who is allowed to legally marry.

          • Paul Hiett

            Marriage is a not a religious term though.

          • Gary

            Yes, it is. It is a legal term also, but even the legal term has had historically the same meaning as the religious one.

          • Paul Hiett

            Gary, you need to do some research on the history of marriage. Marriage is definitely not a religious term, and really had nothing to do with religion for many thousands of years.

          • Gary

            I have done the research, and it proves you are wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            You clearly haven’t…but I’m not surprised you’d lie. Say, isn’t that a sin?

            Here’s a little help…http://www.livescience.com/37777-history-of-marriage.html

          • Spoob

            Gary is not interested in science, I found that out ages ago…

          • Sunnysmom

            But Jesus doesn’t sign the marriage license. I don’t agree churches should be forced to hold ceremonies, that’s religious freedom. But to have a marriage license in our society and enjoy all the benefits that provides, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is a legal social contract.

  • Thomas Vansant

    Let’s take him to the brow of the hill that we we might hurl him off the cliff.

    • Sunnysmom

      Classy, very Jesus-centric.

    • Seminary

      I would like to say that I love the sarcasm. Spot on

  • Estoban

    Another day, another cult is born.

  • Frank

    Rob Bell is an irrelevant, apostate, false teacher and leading himself, his wife and everyone else who listens to him to eternal torment away from Jesus for all eternity.

    • Sunnysmom

      Funny, I feel that way about most Christian churches I’ve been to in the past. Rob Bell is the one person who has brought me back to considering the love of Jesus and his teachings.

      • Gary

        Jesus taught Hell is real and that marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. That can’t be the same Jesus you and Rob are talking about .

        • Sunnysmom

          But it is that same Jesus. What two of his consenting adult creations do with their private secular lives is not for you to worry about. We don’t live in a theocracy. You’re entitled to your opinions, but unless and until we change to a theocracy and Jesus himself starts signing marriage certificates, then your opinion stops when it denies civil rights to others. See also: Loving v. Virginia

          • Gary

            Why is ssm a right? Your beliefs about Jesus do not come from the Bible. And, when Jesus returns, there will be a theocracy. And there will be no ssm.

          • Paul Hiett

            “If” Jesus returns. Might want to keep that in the back of your mind.

          • Gary

            He’ll be back.

          • Paul Hiett

            2000 years and counting…

          • Gary

            It won’t be much longer.

          • Paul Hiett

            Sure…just like the writers of Revelation thought too!

          • Frank

            I love Jesus. He even predicted your words 2000 years back. What a Mighty God I serve.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh, so God knows everything that is ever going to happen?

          • Frank

            Yes.

          • Frank

            Not even close. You are describing Satan. We are speaking of Jesus, the First and Last, the Great I AM, the Creator, the Logic and Reasoning of God.

          • Paul Hiett

            She wasn’t describing anything, actually. You just jumped in with some non-sequitur rhetoric about your opinion of your version of your choice of religion. Why?

          • Frank

            She was describing 2 different people.

          • Paul Hiett

            No, she didn’t, she describe anyone at all. What part of her comment in any way suggests a description of someone?

          • Frank

            If you don’t understand then that might be a problem.

  • Rod

    He is an apostate.

  • Belasaurius

    so a bunch of people who worship an imaginary monster who loves us all are upset that the gays might get to be as miserable as everyone else?

  • Paul Hiett

    I’m curious, Christians. Would you all support a legalized ban on gay marriage if it came with a stipulation that divorce is also illegal?

    • Gary

      I would.

      • Paul Hiett

        There’s one. How much support do you think you’d have across the country?

        • Gary

          Don’t know.

          • Paul Hiett

            Judge by the responses, I’d say they don’t much like the idea.

            So much for the Christian sanctity of marriage, eh?

          • Gary

            Nobody but me has said anything. How do you know what people think unless they say, or prove it by their behavior?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yeah, not too many people getting on the “make divorce illegal” bandwagon.

            Say, what is the Bibles stance on divorce, anyway?

        • Sunnysmom

          Keyboard courage support..until it’s them, or their daughter (or son) who is in an abusive marriage and needs out.

          • Paul Hiett

            Something tells me not too many Christians would be all that supportive if divorce were illegal.

  • Allenb

    what church exactly? I’ve never heard of him before this article… so who does he speak for? This teaching he espouses is news to me.

  • Belasaurius

    yea, God forbid the sanctity of a Christian’s 2nd, 3rd, and 4th marriage be besmirched.

  • Rose Pappas

    abortion is a blood sacrifice to the devil, which has been going on since the beginning of human civilization,. the current hysterical cry to accept gay as normal and good, is a revolt against the very law of God’s creation the sinful heart of mankind has developed a collective mental disorder, which causes the human race to be driven by a mindless desire to commit suicide for the entire race of mankind. It cannot be fixed or cured. Only Christ’s judgement will prevail shortly. We have no choice but hide in Jesus and let the judgement come when He orders it.

    • Paul Hiett

      Just when I thought I had read it all…

  • jaysmack

    The logic is bizarre. Because people are lonely they deserve to have the partner they want? What about lonely pedophiles or people who love their mom or sister or animals? Using this logic we should say we have no right to say it ya wrong. Just bizarre

    • Paul Hiett

      Those things are not analogous to SSM. Never have and never will be. Bad analogy is bad analogy.

  • D. Deason

    It is the tiny bits of dehumanizing vehemence in posts like this one that really irk me. Bell is called ‘former head “Pastor”,’ while Eric Ludy is referred to as Pastor and President (no trite quotation marks). Bell may not be up to your personal standards of holiness, but there are many people out here in God’s world with whom Bell’s messages resonate in ways that your fear and hatred will never. If you claim to be God’s people, you should probably worry less about easy targets like Rob Bell and worry a bit more about your own hearts. At least Bell works to give room to everyone at God’s table–trusting that God is God enough to work things out for the best. All the world gets from rigid, self-righteous rhetoric is more division and a pretty poor image of God.

    • Sunnysmom

      Beautifully stated.

    • Kris Howard

      This is one of the wisest things I have read in a long time.

    • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

      This site claims to consider “both sides” of an issue. But they can’t seem to keep their fingers off the quote key when describing someone with whom they disagree. I stay on this web site because I would like to see real Christian unity and this is one of the most vitriolic venues I have ever seen. I can understand having a dialog but I don’t see much reasoned debate. I would rather have a conversation with a reasonable adversary than with a “true believer” who can’t post a comment without tearing someone else down.

  • tekwrite

    No such thing as gay Christianity. It is a SIN (we are all sinners) and unless REPENTANCE comes, there can be no forgiveness. What a New Age JOKE this guy is!

    • Paul Hiett

      Isn’t it between them and God to decide?

      • The Last Trump

        Then I guess He wouldn’t have bothered to point it out as such in His Word, now would He?

        • Spoob

          Except that He didn’t Trumpy. You’ve been told this over and over, by people on this forum.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes Spoobs. The gaysandlesbians on this forum have tried to tell me over and over that the Bible does not say what it most assuredly does say. See, fortunately I CAN read!
            Here’s just ONE scripture out of the many!
            How many ways do you want it? Lev.18:22

            “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” KJV

            “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination” NSAB

            “‘Do not have sexualrelations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” NIV

            “Do not practice homosexuality, havingsex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.” NLT

            Yep. Still in there. Funny how you LGBT lovers can’t seem to read ….

  • tekwrite

    ““I think culture is already there, and the Church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense,” Bell said”

    REALLY ya mean like what JESUS said too? I dont know who this clown is but he is no “pastor”. God has a special place for used car salesmen, people who design nonsymmetrical parking lots, and deceivers like this clown is, in Hell.

  • Skalamoosh

    “Best defense is letters from 2000 years ago…” because God changes his mind and his law based on culture and what people think…. What about Hebrews 13:8? “the same yesterday, today, and forever,” or the fact the God said his name is “I AM” not “I AM for now until it’s unpopular in which case I’ll change to I WAS but now I AM SOMETHING ELSE”

    • Paul Hiett

      The Bible is pretty clear on divorce, too, but I don’t see anyone getting all bent out of shape about that.

      • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

        I don’t see Protestants getting all bent out of shape. that’s for sure.

      • Pererin

        Please enlighten me. The Bible gives reasons for divorce, have you not read the bible?

  • Jack Salemi

    Simply amazing, NOT! This interview is so poorly done. I’ve always been on the fence about Oprah, but this kinda seals the deal. This lunatic, new-age ‘spiritualist’ [Bell] was invited to tour with her(?), yes. They [Bell and Oprah] refer to “this life” often. Have they noticed how fast this life is passing? If this life is it, I’m leaving (or willing to) soon. Have no fear, Mister Bell will have to answer for his life and the lives of many more. Johnny Carson quoted Paul the Apostle 40 years ago and the audience said “Yes, that’s true”; then Johnny said “It’s not original, it was written 2000 years ago!”. The Word is as true now as it was then. 🙂

    • Paul Hiett

      I’m guessing you don’t know that Carson was an atheist?

      • Jack Salemi

        Even when a ‘false prophet’ quotes the Word of God the Truth cannot be distorted. The Voice of God rings true and cannot be distorted by man. Mr. Carson’s beliefs are irrelevant here for illustration purposes

        • Paul Hiett

          Yeah, you didn’t know.

          • Jack Salemi

            Bravo!

  • jumbybird

    Oprah is getting ready to declare her homosexuality…

  • Kris Howard

    “I think culture is already there, and the Church will continue to be even more irrelevant when it quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense,”

    Exactly. He gets it.

    • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

      He “gets it” because he is more interested in building membership than preaching the Gospel. When you seek to have your success defined by worldly definitions, then you become conformed to the world. Just because something is old does not in any way mean it is irrelevant. The “progressive” church is simply one that has lost its foundation and looks to the world to provide one.

      As C.S. Lewis put it:

      “Progress means getting nearer to the place you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turning, then to go forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man.”

      • Kris Howard

        I am not sure how any of this relates to the topic at hand.

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          Then let’s examine the part you quoted.

          “The culture is already there…” The “culture” is just another way of saying “the world” in its biblical sense. So the world having embraced sin is of no import to a Christian because we are not to be conformed to it.

          “… the Church will continue to be even more irrelevant..” When exactly was “relevance” the measure of success in carrying the Gospel? The more sinful the world becomes the less “relevant” the Church ought to become.

          “..quotes letters from 2,000 years ago as their best defense..” In other words, the Church becomes irrelevant when it adheres to the Bible? What kind of “pastor” is he that the Bible becomes a burden rather than a pillar of his belief?

          • Kris Howard

            It all boils down to interpretation of the biblical texts and the relevance of specific passages for today. The church has been wrong in it’s belief that the Bible condemns homosexuality – just like many Christians and churches were wrong in their defense of slavery or racial bigotry based on the Bible. Homosexuality is the last great prejudice of the church. God is indeed moving among His people – toward love and justice (spoke about by Jesus way more than homosexuality, as I am sure you know).

          • Gary

            God remains opposed to homosexuality and to all s-x outside of marriage. And God has not changed the definition of marriage from what it has always been, the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife.

          • Kris Howard

            The OT is full of polygamy and incest. Where did God provide this definition of marriage that you speak of?

          • Gary

            First in Genesis 2:23,24. That was later confirmed by Jesus Christ in Mark 10:6-8.

          • Paul Hiett

            And what does God say about divorce?

          • Sunnysmom

            Nobody is answering you about this..crickets. 🙂

          • Gary

            He says don’t do it. But that has nothing to do with ssm since God does not allow ssm.

          • Spoob

            Wrong. God says nothing about ssm. So he doesn’t DISallow it.

          • The Last Trump

            Ohh I think we know better than THAT now, don’t we Twister!
            Shameful. Why lie Spoob? You don’t want to follow the Bible, fine.
            But stop with the lying about it. It’s embarrassing.

          • Spoob

            Lying, Trumpy? Tell you what, put your money where your mouth is, tell me please, chapter and verse, where God condemns same-sex marriage. Go on, then.

          • The Last Trump

            You can’t be serious. We’ve actually spent HOURS on just THAT.
            CHAPTERS AND VERSE. No need to repost.
            Go back and re-read what you paid little attention to before.

            What are you, A.D.D.? Seriously dude! I can’t keep reading the Bible to you. Find yourself a reading buddy or buy a Bible like everybody else.
            What happened to your “online” version?

            (Oh, and don’t bother with the G.A.Y. Edition. It’s not in there. You’ll have to look in any one of the many authentic versions. Your welcome little buddy.)

          • Spoob

            Not a difficult question, Trumpy. Chapter and verse please where God forbids homosexual marriage. In those words please, none of your infamous twisting of scripture. Surely it can’t be that hard.

          • Spoob

            You must enlighten everyone here about this G.A.Y. Edition of the Bible you keep referring to. Don’t keep me as the sole beneficiary of your homophobic posts, by all means tell everyone about how you love the LGBT crowd so much more because you care enough to tell them they’re going to burn in hell.

          • The Last Trump

            I think it’s an online version, no? The twisted one you read from, remember?
            And homophobic? Ha! No phobias here. Except for a bunch of terrified LGBT supporters trolling a Christian website, desperate to try to convince Christians that the Bible does not say what everyone here clearly knows that it, indeed, does.
            Oh and, as usual, feel free to quote me anywhere that I am supposed to have said anyone was going to burn hell. Your shameless disregard for truth is appalling! And I’m going to keep calling you out on it every time. How embarrassing! Keep it up, loose lips. Looks good on you.

          • Spoob

            Assuming there was such a thing as an online Bible – and there probably is, I haven’t checked – why would that be bad?
            You want to talk about lies? “Terrified LGBT supporters trolling a Christian website” – wow, I can’t even COUNT the lies in that one phrase alone. Terrified? Of who – you? That’s rich! LGBT supporters? How about human rights supporters? Trolling? You first, Sparky. Christian website? Try ultra-right wing Christian fundamentalist website.

            There is still plenty of time for you to apologize to the LGBT people you insult here daily, Trumpy. Just promise to leave and never come back because you have a mental problem.

          • Kris Howard

            It is this certainty of what God is opposed to that is an issue. When did you become God’s spokesman?

          • Gary

            What is relevant is what the Bible says, not what I say. Or what you say.

          • Pererin

            Where do you get the Bible’s support of racism from? The bible says that we are one human race all descending from Adam and Eve. Science even now confirms that prediction, the term race is now out-of-date and meaningless. Racism stems from the incorrect belief that races come from different steps along the human evolutionary path. So you have Darwin to blame for that I’m afraid. If only people actually listened to the bible instead of the secular fashion of the time we would have avoided so much pain. A big lesson to be learned!
            This is why we must adhere to the word of God. It is correct and does not go out of date or out of fashion will never be irrelevant. We are extremely arrogant to believe that we are constantly moving in the right direction, ever improving, all the while throwing out the treasures that were enlightening us in the first place.

      • Sunnysmom

        So 67% of the world’s population (non-christians) is on the “wrong” path?

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          I didn’t know it was a popularity contest.

          If you believe the truth of the Gospel, then “yes,” the non-Christian is on the wrong path. Thus the command to preach the Gospel to all nations.

          If, however, you do not believe the truth of the Gospel then why should my opinion matter to you?

          • Paul Hiett

            Then what does it matter if gay marriage is legalized? It doesn’t affect you in any way, right?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Gay marriage is going to be legalized. I could not care less. None of my business. I’ll stay out of their bedroom. They can stay out of my church.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Woah now hold on there…. Who’s church?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            OK, your church, then. Anyone’s church. Churches in general.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Far as I know there’s only ONE church and it belongs to God. A failure to understand this basic scriptural teaching is dangerous and speaks to some deeper issues.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Far as I know there’s only ONE church and it belongs to God. A failure to understand this basic scriptural teaching is dangerous and speaks to some deeper issues.

          • Sunnysmom

            It’s not about a popularity contest and true because I don’t believe the gospel is infallible truth your opinion really doesn’t concern me. It’s just insidious to me to think that a God could put 100% of humans on earth and condemn 2/3 to hell for not being Christian. What if..and I know this is a big what if to fundamentalists..there was more than one path to God?

          • Gary

            God makes the rules, not you. You only have the choice to accept what God has said, or reject it.

          • Sunnysmom

            Oh Gary…lol Sigh..

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I don’t know what the ultimate fate of the rest of the world is. I don’t know what God has in mind. I don’t know if there is more than one path to God. What I do know is that I responded to the Gospel and it freed me. I believe it can free all men and women and I support the ministries who are trying to do just that. The fact that the Christian message may not reach every ear does not make the message any less true.

  • Amanda

    The true church of Jesus Christ will never ‘evolve’ in their beliefs if they are following the Words of their Savior. His Words never Change. They are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    • Kris Howard

      What did Jesus say about homosexuality?

      • Gary

        What did Jesus say about marriage?

      • Amanda

        Jesus stated that he only always spoke the Words of His Father. Therefore, His Father’s Words were His. Also in Matthew 19:4-6 He ‘defined’ marriage ,as it is politically termed today, between a male and a female. Government did not institute marriage. God did. Jesus also speaks in Matthew against sexual activities outside of marriage. (Matt. 19:9,18 & 15:19) So therefore man and man or woman and woman is not acceptable as marriage. It is not what God’s Word ordained. You can also read it more directly in Romans 1:18-32 and 1 Corinthians 6: 9-20. Yes, Jesus did not directly state the last two verses but they are His Father’s Words given through Paul so they are His because He only spoke His Father’s Words while on earth which He made very clear multiple times. It really comes down to whether or not we are willing to follow God’s Word or not. Sin is sin. Your choice is to ’embrace’ God’s Word or ’embrace’ the world’s view. Not both. You cant pick and choose.

      • Amanda

        Ive replied with scriptures twice to your question but it has been removed both times.

      • Amanda

        make that 3 times Ive responded and its removed.

      • BeckyJ

        You already know. Nice try though 😉

        • Kris Howard

          Becky – what did Jesus say about it?

  • Scottie Payne
    • Paul Hiett

      Well there you have it folks, definitive proof that gays are going to hell!

      Of course, so is anyone who has ever divorced, but we’ll just ignore that little hypocrisy, won’t we?

      • Sunnysmom

        And the begging question still looms…why does Scottie care? What sick pleasure does he or she gain from this? Does God give bonus points to Scottie at the pearly gates for this? (golf clap..)

        • Paul Hiett

          I often wonder why Christians work so hard to tell others how to live, to deny them the things they take for granted. Why are they so insecure in their faith that they spend every waking hour telling others why they won’t get into heaven…

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Paul, have you not been following the threads of believers like myself or Kris who are trying really hard to demonstrate that in fact ALL Christians are not the same? I would say that in the same manner I would protect you from the judgement you rightly pointed out (by SOME Christians of a particular ilk) I would also need to protect SOME Christians from SOME non-believers who are overly aggressive and opinionated to tell believers that their faith is nothing more than a fairytale. As I said before, the common denominator is that we ALL need some protection from one another wouldn’t you agree?

    • Kris Howard

      Well, this fiction story is certainly helpful to the discussion.

    • D. Deason

      “And they will know we are Christians by our love…”

  • Kris Howard

    I am amazed at how little the average Christian really knows about what the Bible says about anything, such as homosexuality. This is because they never *really* study it for themselves, rather they go to a church where a man will tell them what they want to hear. And what they want to hear is that the world is black and white and that God lives in a box and that God has not spoken since the day Paul died. And this, my friends, is all because of fear. And, these folks will condemn their own sons and daughters to hell because of what some other man tells them that the Bible says.

    • Gary

      Christians get their beliefs from the Bible. I know you don’t understand that, but I can’t do anything about your understanding.

      • Kris Howard

        That’s a very simplistic answer. You should know that Christians have differed on their interpretation of almost every issue mentioned in the Bible. That helps to explain why there are over 30,000 protestant denominations. Which one has it right? Yours?

        • Gary

          There cannot be thousands of different interpretations of a particular Scripture that are all true. What the New Testament says bout marriage is clear. And it leaves no room for ssm.

        • The Last Trump

          All of them. Each denomination worships Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Everything else is secondary.

          • Spoob

            Oh look, Trumpy, another Christian besides myself who uses the word INTERPRETATION! Funny, you didn’t start frothing at the mouth and peeing your pants when someone else said it! Isn’t that funny, you cherry-picking hypocritical wanker, you?

  • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

    Moves like these continue to confirm the sure Word of the Lord who declared that this world would be openly homosexual before He returns.

    Luke 17:26-30, “And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank,
    they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus
    shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

    It is plainly stated in the Word of course, when Jesus returns He will destroy all the
    homosexuals along with those in agreement with them when He splits the eastern
    sky. As every Christian that trusts the Bible knows, in Lot’s day they had a major problem with homosexuality. In fact, the term “Sodomy” comes from the name for the city of “Sodom.”

    Prophecy is clear, the homosexuals will once again grow in number and many will
    accept them as completely normal. In fact, many so called Christian churches of
    today not only have homosexual pastors in them now, they actually sanction and
    marry homosexuals in their churches before the eyes of God. Jesus said it would as the days of Lot, and that day is here right now. In fact, like Lot, many Christians are vexed daily because of all this.

  • John

    Bell will roast.

    • Sunnysmom

      Marshmallows? Hot Dogs?

    • Spoob

      Are you looking forward to it happening?

  • James Rankin

    Same apostate false teachers and their arguments directed against God’s Word to deceive as many people as they can.
    2 Timothy 4:3-4. “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”. Sad, but this is true today as this article proves.

  • really

    wow, all I can say is those of you who have commented should take a step back and listen to how you are all sounding. I don’t sense any love in your hearts, or any sign of the Spirit of Christ in your words. If Jesus were here I think He’d be finding better ways to spend His time and if truth was His objective, He’d be leading by example. Very sad to see the state that the hearts of our supposed “christian nation” is in. Very sad indeed!

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      Try not to come down too hard on them ‘really’. After all, as you said the only way to illustrate the heart of God is to actually show it. You & I realize there are more stone throwers in the kingdom than there are people who are willing to protect each other – but the solution isn’t to cast our own stones, rather it is to hopefully make people see our common need for a saviour. I know I need one and I suspect I’m not the only one who does.

  • Richard Travis

    I have consistently said we are not in the end days yet but now I think I may have to re evaluate that belief.

  • Linda McKeever

    Perhaps this Bell character will be one of those who will be a key figure in the emergent, feel-good churches that will help make up the “one-world religion” predicted in the end times. The stage is almost set with only a few key players remaining to be added to the game board!

    • Sunnysmom

      Love. It’s the only religion that matters.

      • Gary

        Opinions vary.

    • Spoob

      Do you prefer a “feel-bad” church, Linda?

  • Kris Howard

    It amazes me how conservative Christians feel the need to tell others what is right and wrong for them, and how easily these Christians decide who is “in” and who is “out.” I truly believe that any judgment that we will receive will be primarily based on how loving and compassionate we were during our life. The teaching of Jesus: Love and Compassion. I don’t sense much love and compassion here.

    • Sunnysmom

      A definite AMEN to this!!

    • Gary

      Right and wrong is the same for everyone. Morality is defined by God alone, and is universal. No one is exempt. As far as who is in and who is out, it plainly says in the Bible who that is. You prove whether you are a believer or an unbeliever by your words and by your behavior. What you and I believe can be judged as true or false based on the Bible. Jesus taught a lot more than just “Love and Compassion”, and you could see that if you read what he said.

      • Kris Howard

        I understand your simplistic approach to both life and the Bible, as I used to be just like you….all the way through my 5 years spent at a conservative Christian college and 3 years at a conservative Baptist Seminary. Through life experience and a lot of prayer and reflection, I see things much differently now. I pray the same for you.

        • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

          Funny, seems we are very much the same Kris!

          • Kris Howard

            Matt – I am sure that we probably wouldn’t agree on all matters of faith or biblical interpretation, but I suspect that we could have a respectful conversation about our differences….something that doesn’t seem to be happening on this page.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Well give it time. I tend to believe that we’re all somewhat trapped into our own idiocentric behaviours and doctrines that offend one another. Or to put it as my first year seminary professor said many many decades ago: ”At the end of the day we all agree on one thing, our personal doctrine isn’t perfect, but it’s a bit more perfect than the person we’re talking to.” 😉

          • Kris Howard

            Ha Ha that’s great. I had a seminary class where we spent the semester studying what the point of being a Christian was – what Christian growth, discipleship, and fellowship was all about. The conclusion: LOVE. That is the mark of a Christian. I am afraid that we so often fail with this, though. For some reason, Christianity breeds a need to “be right” and to separate from “the other.” Along the way, we lose sight of what it is all really about.

        • Gary

          I think I’ll just continue to believe the Bible.

    • Pererin

      The problem with that is that it’s your believe, where did you get that belief from?

      The Bible states that the only route to heaven is through the belief that Jesus is the true Son of God. No matter how kind or loving you are, unless you love Jesus as your saviour you are not going to heaven. That is what the gospel clearly states. So please don’t be surprised or offended when a Christian believes what Jesus instructed them to believe. Obviously this doesn’t allow a Christian to do whatever they want. When you are truly saved, having accepted Jesus as your saviour, a nature like (but not identical to, we are all still sinners until we die after all) that of Christ is taken on by the Christian. So the Christian will strive to be Christ-like.

      What you are missing here is that Christians, according to scripture should love gay people, we should love everyone. However, the expression of that love is to keep that gay person out of hell. I would want to do as much as possible to inform a gay person of what Jesus has said about gay people, unfortunately for a gay person, Jesus clearly states that it is sinful. So the loving thing to do is to save my gay brother, he needs help. People like Mr Bell in this article are acting terribly because they are doing the opposite, they are telling them to walk straight into hell. This is why so many people here speak so harshly sometimes, they are so frustrated by all of this.

      • Kris Howard

        I would want to do as much as possible to inform a gay person of what Jesus has said about gay people, unfortunately for a gay person, Jesus clearly states that it is sinful. * Can you tell me what Jesus said about gay people? Not what the OT says, or Paul, or your pastor. What did Jesus say about it?

        • John_33

          Of course, Jesus endorsed the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5:18, which forbids homosexuality. He also excluded homosexuality from righteous living. First, He defined marriage as between a man and a woman in Matthew 19:4-6. Second, He condemned all relations outside of marriage as sin in Matthew 15:19-20. Third, He even went further and said that a man looking at a woman to lust after her in his heart is guilty of adultery in Matthew 5:27-28. Lust is lust. If it’s wrong for a man to lust after a woman in his heart, then we can say that it’s also wrong for a man to lust after another man in his heart. Therefore, there’s no way that homosexuality can be endorsed by God. They cannot get married because it’s outside of God’s definition of marriage, they can’t engage in any relations because that would be fornication, and they can’t lust either since God counts that as adultery.

          You are absolutely correct when you say that Christians are to have love and compassion as Jesus taught; however, there is one commandment that is above loving our neighbor, and it’s absolutely crucial that we follow it so we can obey all of Jesus’ teachings. Jesus explained in Matthew 22:37-40 that the first and great commandment is to love God with all your heart soul and mind. He expounded on this in John 14:23-24 and said that if you love Him, then you will keep His commandments. Jesus went further and said in Matthew 10:37 that if anyone loved their family more than Him, then they weren’t worthy of Him. In other words, if we put our family or neighbor above God, then we will put our family’s or neighbor’s sins above God too. That would be a tragic error and would make us guilty of partaking of the sin of others.

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      Sadly my friend I don’t think it’s just conservative Christians who demonstrate this… I think even liberal Christians are very easily tempted to condemn and judge others as spiritually ”inferior” instead of taking the approach that we ALL need protection from one another and we ALL need a Saviour.

      • Kris Howard

        Matt – your point about liberal Christians is an important contribution. As a more liberally minded Christian, I appreciate the reminder. We are ALL in need of a Saviour.

        • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

          Again, I must admit I need more reminders than most people so I appreciate your humility and grace upon me.

  • Afe Bos

    Mr. Bell at first I just thought maybe………now I know you’re on Crack !!!

  • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

    Ok I have to admit posting on here is obviously not a sign of conventional wisdom knowing full well that many will find reason to give a hate filled response – hopefully I’m wrong about that…
    I personally feel Rob Bell is misreading some of the trends from our (Gen-X) generation and younger counterpart believers. I do agree with him that homosexuality when singularly condemned as ”ungodly” (while we find nothing wrong with a capitalist and individualistic society that trains people to turn their backs on the sick, poor, and needy) is flat out wrong. No if and or buts about it. There are far too many passages that illustrate Jesus’ reaction to those who feel it is ”ok” to condemn people for one particular sin while finding nothing wrong with the sins within our own lives first. Furthermore there is nothing in scripture that would indicate this form of exclusion (by the ‘righteous’) is a Godly practice of love and as I read it directly violates our commandment to welcome people into our lives. (Yes yes here comes the first wave of hate responses before they read my next statement)… BUT… I do think Rob confuses the issue of love with acceptance. Do I believe (as he does) that my homosexual friends deserve every bit as much love as my straight friends? Of course! Do I also believer they deserve the same PROTECTION from their persecutors as my believing friends do? Of course they do! If I love my friend(s), I will protect them from all forms of harm & hate (yes even if that means protecting them from the same people who claim their stones are thrown ”in the name of God”)… HOWEVER… Do I think that my willingness to protect my friends, family & loved ones is the same thing as God’s acceptance of a choice that is deemed ”sin”? Well no, I don’t. Having said that, let me once again reiterate I’ve yet to meet a sinless person who isn’t in need of ”protection & love” from the stones waiting to be cast against them. Those stones don’t just come from the ”extreme right wing believers” but they also come from the ”extreme left wing critics”. There are a lot of people dying to throw their stones, but who amongst us is willing to stand up and say ”I believe there is a God who says, come try me out and see if I am one of those people who is waiting to throw a stone at you or if I am the one who will take the stone in your place.”

    • Kris Howard

      Well said. A lot of wisdom here.

      • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

        Thanks Kris, but I know the majority will soon have a field day on this because it critiques the actions of stone throwers from the left and the right… I’m hoping however there are more people like you & I out there who are larger in numbers than the media gives us credit for.

    • Gary

      If what we now call homosexuality were not condemned in the Bible, I would have no reason to oppose it. Same goes for ssm. If God approved of it, so would I.

      • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

        Fair enough Gary. I may not share the same heart and method you have, but I actually appreciate that you are willing to take a stance and not waiver on it because you honestly believe it to be God’s Word through you… I cannot fault a person for this.

  • dave

    Reading these comments is a sad and telling commentary as to WHY exactly the church has become so irrelevant. People using out-of-context understandings of the Bible to defend their ignorance and bigotry. It’s the same nonsense that our country used to defend slavery and discrimination centuries ago. Wake up Christians! It’s 2015. The world has changed. Clinging to your ideas that you are somehow the only special group of people who understand the Bible b/c your pastor and his 4-year theology degree preaches some mediocre sermon once a week designed to make you feel better about yourself…. Rob Bell has done more actual research on the Bible and church history than 99% of pastors out there. Probably more like 99.9%. That’s why he’s actually saying something relevant, and they are not. The world would be a better place with a lot more Rob Bells and a lot less Eric Ludys, whoever the heck that is.

    By the way, to the author, putting the word “pastor” in quotes when referring to Rob is a joke.

    • Pererin

      The problem with that is that it’s your believe, where did you get that belief from?

      The Bible states that the only route to heaven is through the belief that Jesus is the true Son of God. No matter how kind or loving you are, unless you love Jesus as your saviour you are not going to heaven. That is what the gospel clearly states. So please don’t be surprised or offended when a Christian believes what Jesus instructed them to believe. Obviously this doesn’t allow a Christian to do whatever they want. When you are truly saved, having accepted Jesus as your saviour, a nature like (but not identical to, we are all still sinners until we die after all) that of Christ is taken on by the Christian. So the Christian will strive to be Christ-like.

      What you are missing here is that Christians, according to scripture should love gay people, we should love everyone. However, the expression of that love is to keep that gay person out of hell. I would want to do as much as possible to inform a gay person of what Jesus has said about gay people, unfortunately for a gay person, Jesus clearly states that it is sinful. So the loving thing to do is to save my gay brother, he needs help. People like Mr Bell in this article are acting terribly because they are doing the opposite, they are telling them to walk straight into hell. This is why so many people here speak so harshly sometimes, they are so frustrated by all of this.

      • Kris Howard

        I would want to do as much as possible to inform a gay person of what Jesus has said about gay people, unfortunately for a gay person, Jesus clearly states that it is sinful. *Please tell me what Jesus said about gay people. Not the OT and not Paul and not your pastor. What specifically did Jesus say about gay people?

        • Gary

          Jesus is God, so he condemned homos-xuality in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. In the NT, Jesus condemns all s-x outside of marriage in Matthew 15:19. He also confirms heteros-xual-only marriage in Mark 10:6-8.

          • Kris Howard

            Again, a very simplistic answer. Please don’t attribute words to Jesus that He never said.

          • Gary

            Jesus is God, even if you don’t believe it.

          • Kris Howard

            I do believe it, but that doesn’t mean that I have to agree with your interpretation of biblical passages.

          • Spoob

            I am glad to see you use the word “interpretation”, there is a Christian supremacist type creature who lurks on these pages and laughs heartily at my suggestion that we all interpret scripture. He claims he doesn’t. Isn’t that right, Trumpy?

          • The Last Trump

            Oh, I like to “interpret” ALL THE TIME!
            You know, stuff like “thou shalt NOT” means “hey, whatever! Go ahead and DO IT!”
            ….Oh wait…that’s not me. THAT’S YOU silly!! 🙂

          • Spoob

            Oh, now, that’s just SAD, Trumpy. Denying your own words like the liar you are. Doesn’t surprise me personally but your OWN words were that you do not interpret, that you alone know what God means because He speaks to you. You threw the word INTERPRET at me over and over as though it were something to be ashamed of, not realizing that the original Bible was not written in English. Just so, so sad, Trumpy, putting your dishonesty on display so publicly like this. What an embarrassment you are as a Christian.

          • The Last Trump

            Gee, Spoobie. I think you misinterpreted.
            Not surprising. Certainly not the first time!

          • Spoob

            Could you repeat that please Trumpy, I couldn’t hear over all the lying,

          • The Last Trump

            No prob. Let me know when you are done with the lying so I can repeat it. 🙂

          • Spoob

            The lying was your own, Trumps. And I think you know full well. But you have been officially caught BSing, and in the name of God too. I don’t suppose He will like that too much.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, you let me know when you’ve OFFICIALLY caught me ANYTHING!
            Still waiting on you to quote me for the other 10 times you’ve slanderously and shamelessly accused me of hate, bigotry, lying, rape, murder, incest, etc. etc. etc.
            The sad truth is, that’s all you do here. Nothing ever of any value to add to any discussion. Only a constant stream of baseless accusations and slanderous lies when someone disagrees with you.
            Absolutely disgracefull.

          • Spoob

            Your own words crucify you often enough Trumpy, you don’t need any help in making yourself look bigoted. Anyone who has read your posts here knows you are one of the extreme right wing bigots here.

          • The Last Trump

            Please quote. Thanks.
            Don’t be a hater Spoob.

          • Spoob

            Easy enough, find a page where you have commented and search for “Trump” and “LGBT”. The hate will be revealed instantly. Don’t be a hater Trumpy.

          • Gary

            In the Bible, marriage is always the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. There is no alternate interpretation of marriage that can include ssm.

          • dave

            Gary – what’s your interpretation of the Bible’s teaching on circumcision? Relevant or irrelevant? Am I going to hell based on whether or not I’m circumcised? Honest question, what do you think?

          • dave

            Really, you’re using the “Jesus is God” argument to claim anything in the OT as Jesus’ words?? SERIOUSLY? Gary, that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. So Jesus also gave us the commandments about not eating pigs and shellfish and that we can’t cut our facial hair? (Lev. 19:27). Come on Gary, surely you’re smarter than this.

            Also – do you need to be told that the book of Leviticus was not written by God himself, but “written” by humans, passed down orally for generations, before being written down.

          • Gary

            Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are direct quotes from God. And Jesus is God. But it is obvious you don’t believe the Bible.

          • Badkey

            The bible isn’t law. It doesn’t matter.

          • dave

            Come on man. That’s a low blow out of desperation b/c you have no response to the actual points I’m making. It is obvious that I don’t subscribe to the same pre-modern understanding of the Bible that you and your cavemen friends believe in, but I believe the Bible, I read it daily, and I let it inspire me, rather than fill me with righteous superiority. Try sometime listening to it, rather than looking for ammo.

          • Gary

            You don’t believe the Bible. You might as well stop lying about that. You have already proven you don’t believe it.

          • dave

            Copy-paste:

            Come on man. That’s a low blow out of desperation b/c you have no response to the actual points I’m making. It is obvious that I don’t subscribe to the same pre-modern understanding of the Bible that you and your cavemen friends believe in, but I believe the Bible, I read it daily, and I let it inspire me, rather than fill me with righteous superiority. Try sometime listening to it, rather than looking for ammo.

          • Gary

            If you believe the Bible, then why don’t you believe marriage is only between a man and a woman? The Bible says every marriage consists of a husband and a wife.

        • Pererin

          First of all, I would suggest you not take bits and pieces of the Bible as you would prefer, Jesus references the Old Testament many times to back up his teachings, so to suggest this practice is not advisable. Similarly with Paul, he was speaking God’s words, so you are telling me God’s word is not good enough for you.

          Jesus condemned homosexual sin together with all other sins when He said, “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17,18) Again in Luke 16:16,17 He said, “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since then the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of the Law to fail.”

          Far from relax the Law of Israel, he actually tightened it!

          “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder….’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court…. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ but I say to you, that every one who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (read Matthew 5:21)

          In this less-loved portion of the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord continues with four more laws – each time with that same formula: You have heard…but I say – each time showing not that God’s Law has been repealed, but that it reaches deeper than we ever knew.

          In Matthew 10:14,15 the Lord says, “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” (There is a similar statement in the next chapter and a parallel in Luke’s gospel.) The point here is that Jesus was not referring to the past destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, but to the residents’ future judgment. He uses their pending punishment as a benchmark of intolerability. This is further evidence against the deluded view that Jesus was undoing the uptight morality of that dodgy Old Testament god. The clear implication is that the perversion of Sodom will be punished severely, and in Jesus’ view, deserves to be punished severely.

          Then there what Jesus taught on marriage:
          “And He answered and said to them, ‘Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’“
          Matthew 19:4

          “But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’”
          Mark 10:6

          When Jesus was asked questions about marriage he went straight back to the defining passages in Genesis that say that marriage is between male and female and is meant to be life long. He saw the Creation accounts in Genesis as authoritative in His day. And what is authoritative for Jesus is authoritative for Christians also. While Jesus did not specifically teach on homosexuality, His establishment of the Genesis passages as the fundamental passages on marriage (even more fundamental than the Law) leaves no doubt as to the outcome.

          I know you don’t want the following verses but I cannot exclude them as the are the word of God and are also vital to this discussion:

          1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

          Rom. 1:26-28, “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”

          “Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,” 1 Timothy 1:9-10

          So you see, we must use all of scripture are that is what Jesus did himself. We cannot delete undesirable text because it does not fit in with current secular teaching. Doing this takes us further and further down the wrong path. We need to turn back as soon as possible and re-take path of God’s word, not man’s word. All too often these days, humanism is being melded with Christianity, typically ignoring the book of Genesis as pure allegory in order to avoid the truth of sin and why we need a saviour in the first place. This needs to be stopped as it is totally unbiblical, corrupt and baseless.

    • Kris Howard

      Wow. This will preach.

    • Gary

      Where does the Bible say a man can marry a man? If you don’t know the answer, maybe you could ask Rob Bell.

      • dave

        Where does the Bible say you can drive a car? Where does the Bible say you can wear glasses? Where does the Bible say you can take Tylenol if you have a headache? Where does the Bible say you can use your laptop to google directions to your chiropractor’s office? … etc etc etc

        Maybe the Bible doesn’t directly answer questions that weren’t relevant 2,000 years ago. Thanks for playing the Stupid Religious Questions Game, Gary.

        • Gary

          Marriage is directly addressed in several places in the Bible, and every time it says it is only between a man and a woman. Every marriage in the Bible consists of a husband and a wife.

          • Badkey

            Legally, who cares? Your holy book is not required for marriage.

          • dave

            ACTUALLY, Gary, most of the marriages in the Bible were between a man and MULTIPLE wives. Solomon had 700 wives. King David had 8. Abraham and Moses had multiple wives.

            Exodus 21 talks about a man’s responsibilities to his multiple wives. And since “Jesus is God”, he clearly spoke Exodus 21 directly. Therefore Jesus is commanding us all to have multiple wives! Come on Gary, we can all play this silly game.

          • Gary

            But you never find a marriage in the Bible that is not between a man and a woman. It isn’t possible to justify ssm from the Bible. That is why Christians won’t support it.

          • dave

            Also not possibly to justify driving a car from the Bible. It’s just called “culture is changing.” I know it’s hard to understand. Took me some time too. It’s okay, it’s not an easy issue. Anyway, gotta go to bed. Grace and peace, Gary.

          • Gary

            I don’t subscribe to the notion that if something isn’t directly mentioned in the Bible then it must be moral. But marriage and s-xuality are mentioned. God has made it clear what His rules are about those things. And you have made it clear that you reject those rules.

          • dave

            I don’t either man. Some things aren’t mentioned in the Bible and clearly aren’t moral. That’s why discernment is needed. Wisdom is what we need. Not thinking you have captured truth and mounted its head on your wall like a 9-point buck. Yes, marriage is mentioned in the Bible, and I agree with you on the importance of love and fidelity. I meditate on the idea of “loving my wife as Christ loves the church” every single day; that’s my driving force. But other things are mentioned in the Bible but have become irrelevant to American culture, like eating kosher and having slaves and being circumcised. Times change and wisdom has to evolve. I don’t always think people living in a gay lifestyle are living the way God intended them to, but I feel the same way about a lot of straight people. The “lifestyle of sin” argument is just a cover up for systematically discriminating against a group of people you fear and misunderstand. I’m just trying to break down barriers of culturally-sanctioned oppressiveness. The reality is, there are plenty of gay couples who are more committed and loving and ‘righteous’ than the very pastors who condemn gayness on Sundays.

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            I’m glad you shared your perspective Dave. I think we share some very similar understandings of faith…

          • Gary

            The reality is, homosexuality is immoral. Always. No exceptions. God does not allow ssm, or any way for homosexuality to be moral.

  • Sarah

    Religion is a thing of the past anyways. MY generation is on a road to where we accept everyone. Move it along old people…your time and evil ways are up. Welcome to the new age!!!! <3

    • Pererin

      Everyone? Really?
      Murderers? Rapists? Everyone really?
      A Christian is to love EVERYONE, however we are not to love their (and our own) sinful ways.
      So a Christian should love a gay person a murderer and a rapist with all their hearts, but we are not to approve of theirs actions. It’s becasue we love them that we feel the need to direct them to Jesus so that they may change and not be lost to sin.
      So you see your ‘New Age’ is not so new

    • Gary

      You don’t accept everyone. How do you know those “old people” who disagree with you are evil?

  • Pererin

    Everyone? really?

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      Hi Pererin, it sounds like at the heart of it you & I actually agree, but could I suggest a wording that isn’t communicating a ”win at all costs” approach? You see the reason I say this is because like you I agree that God needs us to testify about Him.
      I think where you & I would differ in approach (not heart but approach) is that you seem to firmly believe that a person can feel loved by you if you emphasize their sinful nature that separates that person from God. Whereas I would rather emphasize a God who wants to protect them from the sins of others. I look at Jesus spending time with those who were deemed ”sinners” in their time and not once did Jesus say ”the condition I’m hanging out with you is that you have to be what I want you to be.” Rather the message I read time and time again is that He says to these people: ”The reason I’m hanging out with you and not condemning you like the righteous is because I love you… I really, truly, deeply love who you are. I love your strengths, I love your idiocentric behaviours, I love you when you’re way off base and wrong, and I love you when you are right…do you believe that I love you? Do you believe that I have nothing but the best of intentions for you? Do you believe that I love you to the point where I would protect you even at the cost of my own life? Come hang with me and see where that leads you.”
      From that point on, it is completely up to the person whether they find value in following God or not. If they choose not to, He doesn’t condemn them as they walk away. So who does Jesus condemn? Its the ”righteous” who don’t seem to understand that righteousness is a pathway to death unless it is a righteousness that comes through love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control…

  • Dean Burnette

    If you reject the scriptures, then you reject the Holy Spirit who inspired those words. If you reject the scriptures, they you reject the God who created them “male and female,” the God who instituted marriage between a man and a woman. If you reject the scriptures, then you reject Jesus, whose story and commands are contained within. If a person believes the Bible is irrelevant, then why be a Christian? If you reject the Bible, then you reject the salvation described within it. On the Day of Judgement, God, not popular society, will be the Judge.

  • Jack Rohde

    Dear Oprah, me and my winner dog and me are consenting adults, I’m 54 and he ‘s 68 in dog years is this too much of a separation in age? we have a lot of fun chasing cats and balls at the beach, and running across cute girls sunbathing on their beach towels, then sniffing their butts, and sneaking treats from kind people having picknics in the parks, do you think this is a compatable relationship? I think we will have a Christian science wedding but he’s a Catholic, he jokes and calls it cat lick, he’s such a funny guy, answer soon, luv your show!

    • Kris Howard

      Do you mean weiner dog or winner dog as in he has won a lot of ribbons?

  • OldArkie

    Rob along with Oprah are not of God, they’re of Satan, with their father being the Devi. Jesus said unto them, “If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.” John 8:42,43

  • Deana

    God’s Word NEVER changes or evolves !!!!! Mankind will always want to try and change the Word of God to suit their sin ! It will cost you eternity…………………..

    • Kris Howard

      Yes, we always want to change God’s word to support our gluttony, and jealousy, and strife, and lying, and eating shell-fish, and even all of the divorced people that fill our churches and even serve in leadership.

      • Deana

        Mankind loves their sin more than God ! Forgiveness is God’s gift to mankind through the sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ he gives each individual the choice to choose life in Him or death through the world.

        • Kris Howard

          Amen!

  • Badkey

    Meh… Religion isn’t needed for marriage. Let ’em keep their superstitions and bigotry.

  • Susana Rakhmani Wijaya

    Rob Bell, the former head “pastor” of Michigan’s Mars Hill Bible Church he believes the Church is
    “moments away” from embracing same-sex “marriage.”… well, it will be not the true church of God… it will be the fake, false church and the source of this kind of church teachings is the book of satan.

    • Spoob

      Even if you disapprove of same-sex marriage, what on earth does Satan have to do with it? Can’t you simply disagree, do you always have to make it about Satan?

      • Kris Howard

        Spoob – you are starting to make me laugh.

        • Spoob

          Sorry, the Satan thing always gets to me…

          • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

            Sadly that Satan thing tends to get to many of us. 😉

  • Kerrigan C

    These discussions always leave me in such confused, sad “disenlightenment” ….the heavy stance against homosexuality and what I’m hearing here being stated by many, as not being supported by Christians and Christianity has me perplexed in this day and age.

    I’m hoping the most educated of you in God’s word, might please respond to some of why I find it all so contrary to where we are today with respect to some issues, yet not this one. Some complex teachings have since fallen away based on times and translation, cultural acceptance, etc., it would seem….yet others remain and are used to ostracize an entire section of humanity from God’s love and acceptance in the minds of many in the Church congregation. In fact, in many places in the world, this thinking leads to execution of gays for no reason other than who they are. And who is to say the God did not create them that way? One day, I have to wonder if a loving God won’t make his position known for those that have contributed to this exclusionary thinking that has led and continues to lead to unthinkable atrocities around the world. This is not just an issue of marriage in my mind…

    But I digress….here are some of things I can’t get past in this by the book (so it seems) thinking (forgive the irony included – it is definitely used for impact and to generate deeper thinking and further discussion of the issues at hand):

    Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

    When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

    A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?

    Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

    Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know some of you feel you have studied these things extensively, so I am confidently asking you to consider your position and respond to the other issues that clearly have changed in the congregation and teachings through time and cultural enlightenment.

    To me, this is a clear demonstration that God’s word is eternal – and changing – based on the interpretation(s) of man, his translations and the cultural times in which we live.

    If we follow the main law of Christ – that we LOVE one another – then how can that direction be in any way exclusionary of any person in God’s eyes. Something tells me, there are many that have a spec in their own eye and a blemish in their heart that needs healing.

    One day, God’s word will be known to all – and to those that open their hearts to Christ’s love, there can be no exclusion where love is concerned.

    I look forward to help in understanding why I should want to celebrate remaining a Christian, if Christianity in fact seems to teach the opposite (at least according to some of you that appear to rely on relics in scripture for some things, yet not for others) – things that clearly do not demonstrate Christ’s love and the reason for his sacrifice. I have to wonder if Jesus would be excited to be a part of this type of thinking and welcome it in his flock. I guess one day we will all know, but for now, I look forward to greater understanding from those of you that truly do confuse me.

    • Kris Howard

      This is the *best* post of the day. I will eagerly await all of the intelligent responses. 🙂

    • Gary

      You are not looking for answers, or for help. You are just a mocker.

      • Kerrigan C

        And you clearly can’t read – nor do you apparently have the answers I am looking for. It seems to me, that those that operate in your way, are in fact mocking the teachings of Christ – and for that, you will one day answer.

        • Gary

          You are trying to find a way to justify homosexuality. The Bible offers you no way to do that.

          • Kerrigan C

            Ahhhhh….Gary. Christians like you make me sincerely shake my head. Centuries ago, you would have been the one convincing everyone that the world was flat.

          • Kris Howard

            *yes*

          • Gary

            The Bible does not say the earth is flat. But it does say that homosexuality is immoral.

          • Kerrigan C

            LOL!

        • Kris Howard

          Yes, I have been waiting all day for Gary to start to make sense.

          • Kerrigan C

            It’s strange….half my responses keep disappearing. It looks like someone is moderating the posts to their dishonest advantage and viewpoint. What an open, Christian forum this is!

          • Kris Howard

            I have noticed that too.

          • Spoob

            Your posts aren’t disappearing Kerrigan. They just don’t always display right away. Carry on.

          • Kerrigan C

            No….they’re definitely disappearing. Certain people are clearly manipulating the site. Have a great night.

        • John_33

          That old list has been circulating on the internet for years. Whoever asked those questions really doesn’t know the Bible.

          • Kerrigan C

            Well then, please share your understanding and clarify the points.

          • John_33

            What’s there to clarify? It’s a nasty diatribe against the Mosaic Law. Some of the questions are pointless. E.g. asking why we ought to follow the commandments in the first place. The remaining verses are quite easy to explain. The argument behind this list is to argue the following: if we don’t follow all of those other laws, then why do we still resist homosexuality? The answer is simple. First, everything contained in the Mosaic Law is good, righteous, holy, and pure. I’m not even going to debate that since that’s a premise in the Bible. If you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe the Bible, and the discussion is pointless. Second, the Mosaic Law always declares who the commandments are meant for.

            Most commandments are for the children of Israel only, and when it is, the Bible always says so, but some of the commandments are listed for everyone in the world to follow. In Leviticus 18, God declared homosexuality, along with a host of other deviant practices, to be forbidden, but He also told the children of Israel in Leviticus 18:24-30 that the Canaanites were being judged for all of those deviant sins. God saw homosexuality and the other deviant sins as so bad that He actually removed entire nations off the earth because of it. We have a clear warning in the Bible. God will judge people – entire nations — if they embrace those sins. As for what Christians are to follow from the Mosaic Law, Acts 15 addresses the subject. In fact, the entire New Testament addresses the subject.

          • Kris Howard

            Most commandments are for the children of Israel only, and when it is, the Bible always says so, but some of the commandments are listed for everyone in the world to follow. * Please explain this. Where do you get this?

          • John_33

            Throughout the entire Old Testament. Many times throughout the entire Mosaic Law it says, “Speak unto the children of Israel.” Or in Levitcus 26:24 where it refers to the statutes and judgments and laws made between the LORD and the children of Israel. Or Psalm 147:20 where it refers to the judgments that God gave to only Israel and not to other nations. It always specifies to whom the commandments are given to. The New Testament dealt with this further. Since the coming of Jesus, non-Jewish believers were not called to follow the Mosaic Law, but they were called to keep certain commandments that were in the Law – not because they were keeping the Law, but because there were commandments that Gentiles and Jews were always meant to follow.

          • Kris Howard

            Wow. I have a seminary degree and you just cleared up one of the toughest theological questions ever…in just one paragraph. I am afraid that your understanding is a bit too simplistic.

          • John_33

            Isn’t this what the Word of God does? God has promised to teach us and give us wisdom on issues we don’t understand. We can be confident in His guidance.

          • Kerrigan C

            IF you only read the list, you would still appear not to be educated enough to respond in your “knowledge of the Bible”, to the very relevant points that I myself expanded upon. Once again, another “Christian” that picks and chooses how and what they accept and don’t. Predominantly most of what you rely upon IS of the Old Testament. Yet we all agree not to stone the adulteress today now don’t we? Support your position if you can, based on the list and the questions I personally have raised. We as Christians cannot continue to operate in the manner you present. Well I suppose YOU can – that would be your choice. And in not answering from an intelligent, loving space, you paint the picture of exactly who you are. And that, my friend, is why people are turning their backs on the Church in droves. And I have to think there will be consequences for those continuing to perpetuate this ignorance. Enlighten away, John, if you’re able.

          • John_33

            You didn’t read what I wrote. If you did, then you wouldn’t have thrown your cookie-cutter answer at me. You don’t know your Bible. Answer me this, did the Apostle James teach Christians to pick and choose the commandments? Did Titus? I want a straight yes or no answer and a Biblical reason to back it up. Otherwise, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

          • Kerrigan C

            That’s the pot calling the kettle black. Nice try. You still have not addressed the points I’ve made and you still rely on outdated dogma that did not come from Christ’s mouth – the very Christ that paid with his life to forgive you – US – of all sin and create a new relationship with the Lord God our Father and Creator. You can mash this up however you like, but you still have proven that you are able to pick an choose what you will despite the fact that it condemns your brother. So yes, I read what you wrote – and I know exactly what I need to to point you out as who you persist in demonstrating yourself to be.

          • John_33

            Okay, so you can’t answer my question, which proves my point that you don’t know what you are talking about. It’s not a hard one, if you’re a Christian. Do you know if the Apostle James taught Christians to pick and choose the commandments?

            I already addressed your points in my previous comment. Sadly, you know so little about the Bible that you can’t even recognize it.

          • Kerrigan C

            Sadly, I’ll leave this in a very simple place. Christ will deal with you in His time….you are clearly not operating with your heart – you are operating from a place of self-justification and incredibly prideful arrogance and ignorance. We are not having the same discussion at all. I’ll leave it to Him to work on you. My points are made and for tonight, my work is done. Others can make up their own minds about you based on what you’ve offered here today.

          • John_33

            The verses cited in the list are commandments from the Mosaic Law; thus, my question on the commandments is central to this conversation. If you understood the question I asked, then you would also understand that I already answered the arguments from the list you gave. The fact that you don’t understand only shows that you don’t understand what you are talking about.

          • Kerrigan C

            Ahhh….you say tomato I say tomatto. I refer to it as the law of the Old Testament – not Mosaic Law per say (but clearly you’re far more execrated in your advanced knowledge of what you write in an attempt to depose what I’m saying, and ultimately, the intent of the first thing I wrote that has evoked your incredible responses). Incredibly, you remind me of exactly why I have such an issue with right-wing fanatics. You think you are better than everyone around you – and your persistence to try and prove your superior intellect is pretty obvious here. it’s another reason why so many have walked away from the Church. This holier-than-thou self-righteous higher manner is quite spiteful – I hope one day you realize that.

            Once again, here we go – you are relying on Mosaic (Old Testament) Law to justify yourself and where you’re coming from. Which do you follow today? As I stated, I did not address the commandments. How exactly are they central to the conversation in your mind and in relation to where this post started? Once again, please enlighten the readers so that we can all grasp where you’re coming from. I haven’t memorized the bible but I sure can research my answer for you if it comes to that.

            If there’s anything I don’t understand here, it’s what you are talking about – and you still haven’t made any relevant points outside of attempting to prove somehow you have more biblical savvy. I think what I’ve demonstrated is that I still do not get what exactly you’re attempting to achieve here? But I’m sure you feel quite self-satisfied and smug based on what you’re writing. So once again, well done. And I sure hope this comment gets posted so that I can analyze it in the morning since some of my others seem to just disappear or not get posted. Interesting forum here.

          • John_33

            There are some things that have always been sinful to humanity from the beginning. Murder and fornication have always been wrong. Touching a dead pig or wearing clothes with different fibers have not. Before the Mosaic Law was ever given, God gave certain commandments to all men. In Genesis 9, God told Noah and his children that they were permitted to eat any animal, but they could not eat the blood. Years later when God gave Israel the Mosaic Law, He commanded Israel to keep the kosher dietary laws, but this did not negate His commandment to Noah and his children. When God commanded the children of Israel to keep the dietary laws, He explicitly told them that they were to keep it because the animals were unclean to them (not to anyone else).

            Gentiles (non-Jews) were never commanded to follow the Mosaic Law. The New Testament explains that it was our schoolmaster to teach us right from wrong to bring us to Jesus. We learn of sin through the Law, but it doesn’t save us from sin – only Jesus can do that. Many then ask why we still oppose homosexuality since we don’t follow the Mosaic Law. The answer is that homosexuality was always a sin since the beginning of creation. How do we know this? One way we know this is because God told the children of Israel in Leviticus 18:24-30 that the non-Jewish nations in the land of Canaan were being judged because they were guilty of practicing a number of deviant acts, including homosexuality. These non-Jewish nations were never under the Mosaic Law, but they were still guilty and were being judged because those acts were always sinful in God’s eyes. The New Testament confirms this to be true.

            That’s why the list you posted is wrong. It never was a sin for Christians to eat shellfish or to sow fields with different crops because non-Jewish believers were never under the Mosaic Law; however, homosexuality was always forbidden before the Mosaic Law was written. God demonstrated this when He judged Gentile nations for practicing it, but when Christians explain this, we are accused of ‘picking and choosing’ what we want to follow.

            I’m not better in any single way. Aside from what Christ has done in my life, I’m nothing. My intention here is not to show off any knowledge or to look good in front of anyone. I’m responding because that list twists the Bible to deceive people to support homosexuality even though God has clearly forbidden it. God has warned that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God. That’s why this matters so much. Christians are called by God to reprove the works of darkness and to have no fellowship with it.

          • Kerrigan C

            I actually admit I had a good chuckle when I read this response. You are the epitome and pinnacle of exactly what separates people from the Church. You have proven your incredible knowledge of all things Godly! I must assume that you are a time-traveller that has personally had conversation with God and Jesus regarding all of these issues for the incredible conviction with which you write – almost as if you were there throughout the ages to be so assured of your position.

            Seriously, dude? Now you’re making a mockery of your original post to the list.

            “That’s why the list you posted is wrong. It never was a sin for Christians to eat shellfish or to sow fields with different crops because non-Jewish believers were never under the Mosaic Law; however, homosexuality was always forbidden before the Mosaic Law was written.”

            You just completely contradicted your prior writings of all things holy and lack of debate!

            To quote you: “The answer is simple. First, everything contained in the Mosaic Law is good, righteous, holy, and pure. I’m not even going to debate that since that’s a premise in the Bible. If you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe the Bible, and the discussion is pointless.”

            Potato, pottatto.

            Homosexuality did not even exist as a lifestyle concept and its inclusion as a word in any reference is wrong to begin with.

            The idea of marriage between a same-sex couple did not exist and was not sought after in the time period – do your research of cultural things before you contextualize your ideals and preaching based on your modern understanding of concepts written centuries ago – and in a different language. Go to the original Hebrew text and find the words you stand by in current interpretation(s).

            You are the perfect example of religious contradiction and bigotry to uphold your righteous belief system that “your sin is less than their sin”.

            And you have also proven that you do pick and choose whatever you want to satisfy a nature that is not respective of Christ’s teachings.

            There is a saying: “Thou doest protest too much.”

            Thanks for the response…it really cleared up a lot – for me and for the readers.

            May God’s will prevail…thank you Jesus for your sacrifice, that we may all come to a greater point of understanding and love.

            And John, I truly mean that…from the bottom of my Christian heart.

          • John_33

            How did I pick and choose against Christ’s teachings? Show me with scripture.

            There is no contradiction with what I wrote. Seriously, this is basic Christianity 101, and I’m honestly sorry that you can’t grasp it. The Mosaic Law is holy, pure, and perfect, and Gentiles were never commanded to follow it. Both statements are true. God can give holy commandments to one specific group of people while giving different holy commandments to a different group of people. This is exactly what God did.

            You don’t know anything about Jesus. The real Jesus from the Bible not only endorsed the Law completely; He lived it perfectly. There is nobody who can claim that except Him. He is the one that called the Law holy and pure and true by His words and actions. If you don’t agree, then you don’t agree with the Saviour of the World.

          • Kerrigan C

            Clearly there is no getting through to you. You need to learn to see with your heart as well as your made-up mind. You can’t even see the contradictions you present! I don’t have to agree with you – I only need to agree that through Christ, I am saved. For you to judge otherwise points you out, again, for missing the whole point of what it means to be a Christian…love one another. The rest is moot until you get to the point of that understanding.

            P.S. You’re not sorry, you get off on condescending replies to support your perceived intelligence and need to be right. I hope that satisfies you.

            I’m done with this conversation now.

          • John_33

            I really meant it when I said that I was sorry. The only way we can ever know what God truly expects from us is through His Word. Otherwise, we can become deceived and think we are following God when we aren’t. That’s why it’s sad that throughout this entire conversation you couldn’t even use one scripture verse. You have accused me of many sins throughout this entire conversation, but when I asked for evidence from the Bible, you are suddenly unable to produce any. That’s tragic.

            Sadly, you are also wrong on the whole point of what it means to be a Christian. There is one commandment that is even greater than loving one another. Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-37 that the first and great commandment is to love God with all of your heart, soul, and mind. This love is so important that it changes how we are to follow every other commandment including loving one another. For example, Jesus said in Matthew 10:37 that if we love our mother or father or brother or sister more than Him, then we aren’t worthy of Him. What He meant by this is if we put our family or neighbors above God, then we will put our family’s or neighbor’s sins above God too. That would be a tragic error to make. Do we really love our family if we enable them to indulge themselves in their sins? God forbid. We show our love to God and to our family at the same time by standing firmly on the truth and by refusing to compromise with sin. Christians are called to shine as lights to lead our loved ones away from error and into the truth. Their souls depend on it, and we are guilty if we don’t do this.

            Jesus expounded about this love for God in John 14:23-24 when He explained that if you love Him, then you will keep His commandments. The New Testament continues this theme throughout. 1 John 2:3 says that we know God if we keep His commandments. The next verse says that those who claim they love God but do not keep His commandments are liars and don’t have the truth in them. The Bible is absolutely clear: if we don’t obey Him or His Words, then we can’t claim to know or love Jesus.

            This issue is not murky or confusing. God has condemned homosexuality in the Old and New Testament. I already showed you the verses where it’s clearly forbidden, and you never had an answer. People are willingly living in sin even though they know that God is going to judge people for the sin of homosexuality. Sadly, many would rather live wickedly now and go to hell than to give up their sin and live forever. That’s what John 3:19-21 says. The Bible warned that this would get worse as people chose to follow the doctrines of devils and seducing spirits as we enter into the latter times. That’s exactly what’s happening here. Homosexuality is clearly condemned throughout the entire Word of God, yet people continue to push it in opposition to God’s Word.

          • Kerrigan C

            Edit to last comment as it is still pending: Tora should read Torah.

          • Kerrigan C

            And what on earth does this have to do with the Commandments? Nothing I’ve written dismisses them. We are talking apples and oranges. READ, what I wrote and respond to the ridiculous contradictions and lack of living in Christ’s love that you continue to represent.

          • Kris Howard

            I am waiting for you to clear this up.

          • Kerrigan C

            Well then please do provide the answers to the dichotomy presented since you apparently “know the bible” and so should easily be able to answer the questions I’m still waiting on intelligent, educated answers for.

  • SuperKattitude!

    Any Christian church that decides to ‘accept’ same-sex marriage, is a church I won’t be attending. My church teaches BLUNTLY about Hell, homosexuality, losing your soul (and mind) to the world.

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      Then as promised a ”BLUNT God” shall be your judge….

    • Kris Howard

      That’s great for you, but please don’t force that kind of God upon the rest of us.

    • Kris Howard

      SuperKattitude – this is your post from another thread: Wow, judgmental much? Bi-polar disorder affects different people in different ways, as do illegal drugs. Maybe you should look in the mirror before passing judgment on someone else. How would you like your sin publicized?
      Why the different tone on this thread?

  • don

    Why cant Opera just please go away, now she thinks she is a spokes person for religion? Why people follow her like sheep is beyond me. Talk about worshiping a false Idol. And Bell is a man who wrote a book, nothing more, and he sure cant say he knows anything the church is or is not going to do.

    • Kris Howard

      Wrong. Rob Bell was the pastor of Mars Hill Bible Church – leading it to over 10,000 worshipers on each Sunday. He does have a thing or two to say about the church.

      • don

        He was, that’s the key to what you said, hes been booted !!

        • Kris Howard

          My point is that he does have a thing or two to say. Have you built a church of 10,000? He may have been booted, but God may be leading him to a larger audience.

          • don

            Or he might be starting his own followers for his own church. Jim Jones ring a bell ?

          • Kris Howard

            Actually, Jim Jones would be a bigger draw to most of the folks posting here. 🙂

  • Gaston Lee Battle

    Please don’t fool yourself! the true Church of God is still standing on the principles of holiness and righteousness according to the Word of God. God loves everybody but he still has guidelines that keeps society in a boundary of right doing.
    Eventually there will be those who would say that they were born desiring young childrenand not call it sin but how they really are.
    The Bible says in Proverbs 14:12 that “there’s a way that seems right to man but the end of all the ways of death”. Society without guidelines and principles or standars eventually destroys itself.
    just like the power of the Holy Spirit can change a man from being an adulterer and a fornication, it can also change a man from desiring to be with another man, which is not God’s original intent for procreation.
    We must understand that read were created by God of specific design and purpose and men were created to be with women and not other men.
    In the minds of the progressive theologist, they feel as though man helps God to be who he will finally be,and that as time changes God changes; but my Bible tells me that God is a God who changes not and his word is relevant to every situation that occurs in our lives today.

    • Kris Howard

      what?

  • Sola Scriptura

    Here is a little thought about the unchanging, everlasting goldmine that is the written word of God.

    http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/12/02/the-written-word-what-did-jesus-the-apostles-and-the-psalmists-say-about-the-written-word-of-god/

    • Kris Howard

      That’s beautiful and I agree with it, but I still don’t believe that God will send gay people to hell.:)

      • Gary

        Then you don’t believe the Bible.

        • Kris Howard

          I appreciate your love for the Bible, Gary, and I love it too. I just don’t agree with your interpretation of it. I fear that you may have fallen into the trap of “Bible worship” over “God worship,”

          • Gary

            I have not. Your beliefs do not agree with what is written in the Bible. You pretend it says what you want to believe, but it does not.

          • Kris Howard

            Gary – can you say something substantive?

      • jmichael39

        he’ll send unrepentant gay people to hell. That’s the difference.

  • Sola Scriptura
    • Kris Howard

      Sola Scriptura – are you able to post your own thoughts here? We could all just link to websites, but that’s not how this works.

      • jmichael39

        that’s baloney. Sometimes its not worth the effort to try to re-invent the wheel, when someone else has already done such a great job in explaining a point. Now, many times it helps to at least express some reason behind what you like about a particular article you’re linking to. But around this place, its a rock and a hard place when you simply share thoughts but don’t cite sources.

  • Kris Howard

    It’s *really* interesting to me how many people, except for a few faithful, post on here and then run. It’s like a “knock ’em out for Jesus” and then run. Never to be heard from again.

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      And the Isotopes beat Shelbyville 1 to 0 in an exciting game that will go down as one for the ages…

  • Rich

    The ORTHODOX Church will not accept gay marriage. I don’t know how a Fuller Grad can so blatantly disregard EXEGETICAL study, thousands of years of scripture, tradition and reason (nature itself speaks against it as the definition of life – bios – must include movement, growth, metabolism and reproduction) and multiple other religions AND philosophies around the world all for the appeasement of the zeitgeist of our current culture. Even if the government legalizes it, it does not mean it should be tolerated for even the government at one time allowed legalized slavery. My heart breaks for Rob Bell as he misleads many and has become one who “tickles ears”. It takes humility to admit there is sin in the world and the less you can admit it, the more arrogant you are to the level of Adolph Hitler who was delusional in admitting he had a problem.

  • Louis Tarkington

    We as a church should focus on the heterosexual marriages that fail, which I believe are more of a condemnation to God’s Holiness than worrying about gay marriage. However, since the focus is on gay marriage, I’ll say this. It is not the marriage that concerns me. It is the sexual infidelity statistics among gay couples that need prayer. From the counseling sessions I have done, the lifestyle of someone that is homosexual comes packed with way more temptation that most straight people encounter. (Again, this is based on my experience.) Sexual purity in the scriptures is highly reflected in couples that are committed to each other and faithful, if you are to even engage in a relationship, marriage, etc. If the church is “moments away” from accepting gay marriage, we need to have in place some counseling for both hetero and homo sexual relationships on how to reflect God’s holiness and stop matching non-believers’ stats on divorce. Yes, God allows divorce, but certainly not ideal, especially when its because a couple stopped communicating and had differences of opinions and are as far removed from a Biblical justification on divorce as I am from finding a leprechaun sleeping under an overpass here in LA.

    • Gary

      It is not possible for a homosexual, or a homosexual relationship to ever reflect God’s holiness.

  • Sam Ferraro

    The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church will never allow Holy Communion for those remarried outside of the Church or for practicing homosexuals. It simply will not happen.

    • Kris Howard

      Sam – I am Catholic and gay and I take Holy Communion every week?

  • smh sad

    This is why I take issue with Ophra, why give this blasphemist a platform to speak such nonsense

  • Michelle Bowen

    These people are liars and stupid! I am a Christian and I will NEVER EVER let a Church tell me what to think or do in this case. The church isnt’ who I follow God is. His 2,000 year old words as he so dismisses are real and true and pure now as they were then! I will not change my view I will not ‘evovle’ into theri world. If they turn and kill me for it, then so be it. I decided a long time ago, sword or gun or whatever at my head threatening me and trying to make me deny God as the one true God, I would rather die, than deny him!

    Bell I will pray for you and your lost sad wife just as I will pray for Oprah but it is clear you are not a Christian and netiher is anyone who supports your views. You are very good at twisting words and using love to spread evil and darkness. In the end times that is exactly what will be happening. Those who were viewed once as good will become the scorned and soon the hated, and soon you will say Christinity is evil becasue we will not conform to the world!

    I do not conform, I will never conform! EVER! You can beat me, you can call me names, you can attack me otherwise. I will not ever EVER give you that! I promise God that and I promise it without sounding proud. I am standing where I am, and the one true God the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is with me! He protects my mind and heart against your lies, you are in bed with the devil and his demons, and you need to repent before you taste what hell is really like. You need to realize that you are not the be all end all of Christian’s views. Infact you do not represent any that I know of. Or if I did I am no longer friends with hypocrits….The next thing you’ll start selling is how its ok to rape a child, or how its ok to cheat on your spouse…or any number of other sins in the Bible.

    The Bible is as real and true and pure today as it was the moment those words were written by men who God had physically write the words he gave them. God created this universe and each of us, he saw our sins, he sent his son to take our sins on the cross, and he defeated death for us! He went through the darkest bowls of hell! He gave his all for me, I know he loves me with all his heart. I know that what you want is money, you want people to waste money on your book, and worse you want them to lose their souls to this lie. I trust God more than I will ever trust any human being, even my family! So you need to reconsider when you say the ‘church’ or as you are in some other way saying “christians” are about to conceed…..you’re so wrong! Those who are true Christians do not do wishy washy things……we stand strong in GOD’s word not some human’s pathetic book of lies!

    I will pray for you…and all those who are lost……

    • Paul Hiett

      And yet, after all that…gay marriage still does no harm at all to anyone. Even you.

      • SOCIALISM-MUST-GO!

        and that is a lie also …..

        Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

        Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

        Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

        Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

        You can not teach children contrary to the word of God w/o committing an offence against them.

  • Morne Oosthuizen

    I have no idea where this man gets his idea’s from because it is NOT from the Bible……can Rob even read? I pray that Rob meets Jesus for himself, before he carries on spreading this junk…seriously…..

  • Barbara Winters

    Not in my Church. Even animals have better sense. God made man and woman different for a reason.

  • Reason2012

    Rob Belle is teaching an anti-Christ message, so he hardly speaks for any church but his own anti-Christ church.

    Also the issue has been falsely phrased as “states have the right to ban same-gender marriage” – this assumes there’s such a thing as “same – gender marriage to begin with”, which there is not.

    The issue is does the state have the right to re-define religious institutions and pass laws to establish this new religious institution, which would in effect be passing laws to establish a new state religion (violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment), which in turn would criminalize Christian belief about marriage (another violation of the First Amendment).

    And on both counts, states do not have any right to do any such thing – we’re protected from such judicial religious tyranny by the Constitution of the United States of America.

    Not to mention that every single man already has the same right as every other man: to marry one woman. And every single woman already has the same right as every single woman: to marry one man. So the claim anyone’s being denied “equal rights” is a lie.

    Jesus pointed out that marriage is between one man and one woman:

    Matthew 19:4-6 “And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus even points out that for the cause of making them male and female, this is why male will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.

    Mark 10:5-7 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. (6) But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;”

    Jesus said God made them male and female – not male and male – not female and female.

    Jesus said man shall leave father and mother, not father and father, not mother and mother.

    Jesus said man shall cleave to his wife, not to his husband, not to her wife.

    Not to mention Jesus is God, so the entire Word of God is the Words of Christ. As Jesus is The Word.

    John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    The Lord rebukes us for our attempts to destroy what He defined as one man and one woman.

    As if that’s not enough,

    (1) Marriage is a religious institution that has existed since the beginning of time.

    (2) The government is violating the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America by REDEFINING religious institutions then passing laws to establish this new state religion where anyone who does not adhere to this new state religion is condemned as a criminal: sued and fined thousands of dollars.

    (3) Marriage is for the possibility of procreation for the continuance of society. A same-gender marriage is, by design, never capable of such a thing.

    (4) Any pro-creation should be within a marriage – same-gender ‘marriages’ are forced to go outside the ‘marriage” 100% of the time by design.

    (5) Kids have the right to be raised by their biological mother and father – same-gender marriages deny them this right 100% of the time, by design.

    (6) Kids have the right to be raised by a mother and a father, not forced into setups that are dysfunctional 100% of the time: two or more fathers and no mother, or two or more mothers and no father.

    (7) Every single person alive has one biological mother and one biological father. Nature alone re-iterates what marriage is – that this is what a family is.

  • Legalize Freedom

    Rob Bell…Rob Bell… Oh! Rob Bell! – wasn’t he that guy that gained a little bit of attention in the Christian community for his feel good, have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too views on the Bible? Wait, he said something else that contradicts the clear and historical teaching of the Bible? Shocking…

  • incontru

    Lukewarm soon to be spat out.

  • Heidi

    I have gay friends whom I love. I have friends who have committed adultery, abortion (insert any societal action that is currently being accommodated out of a lack of knowledge, commitment to God and the Bible, or just plain disobedience and rebellion,) ans continue to love as Jesus loves.
    Rob Bell’s statement that the church needs to repent stuns me. If the church is following God’s Word as life-breathed aka the Bible (as a group of Christian’s should be doing,) you can’t deny the fact that same-sex marriage is as much a sin as baring false witness, lust, even stealing a pencil. He and his wife, Kristen, can be “for marriage, for love, and for fidelity” all year long, but just because he adds, “whether it’s a woman and a woman or a man and a man” doesn’t make it Biblically accurate nor does it change God’s (very clear) position on sexual immorality/homosexuality.

    However, I do agree with him as he goes on to say, “I think we are witnessing the death of a particular subculture that doesn’t work…” When those who claim to be Christians (followers of Christ) or the Church (body of believers) contort the Word or blatantly disregard or omit part of Scripture, it is indeed dying for them and it ” doesn’t work” for those whom it’s inconvenient or for those who choose to follow someone’s false teaching rather than find the truth for themselves in the Bible. That’s not only sad, it’s dangerous.
    Leviticus 18 (Old Testament) addresses sexual immorality, specifically in v.22, “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
    Galatians 5 (New Testament) also addresses sexual immorality (lest it be said that after Jesus comes into the picture, it no longer applies,) v.17, “For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit…” v.19, “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality…”
    What part of the Bible coincides with Mr. & Mrs. Bell’s stance on this topic?

    1 Timothy warns against false teachers. In v.7, They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about our what they so confidently affirm.”
    In v.9-11, “We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful… ” v.10, “for adulterers and perverts… and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God…”
    Rob and Kristen, you need to repent. I’ll be praying for you diligently.

    • http://www.mattsilver.ca/ Matt S

      And do we as believers need to repent if thousands of hearts have been hardened, damaged or hurt by casting out a group of people who are guilty of a particularly singled out sin?

  • gregkliebigsr

    WOW! mr bell, YOUR CULT GROUP/ CHURCH MAY FALL TO THE PRESSURES OF YOUR father satan ,;
    BUT THE BLOOD BOUGHT, BLOOD WASHED , BORN- AGAIN , BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST SONS ADN DAUGHTERS OF THE LIVING GOD WILL NEVER , EVER BOW THEIR KNEE TO baal !!!

    THIS IS THE COMMISSION THAT OUR CREATOR GOD (YAHWEH) HAS PUT ON ME TO DO, TO WARN HUMANITY !! LOVE WARNS !
    THIS IS NOT MY PERSONAL OPINION !

    “Thou shalt NOT lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination!” says the LORD GOD.
    LEVITICUS18: 22. SO, LET ME MAKE IT PERFECTLY CLEAR , HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION!!!

    The sin of homosexuality is a forgivable sin, but a person must confess and repent of their sin to the LORD JESUS; I John 1:8-9

    REPENT OF YOUR HOMOSEXUALITY! FOR THE BLOOD OF YESHUA (JESUS) WILL WASH YOU CLEAN AND DELIVER YOU OUT OF ALL YOUR SIN!
    ———
    HOMOSEXUALTY ROBS GOD OF NEW HUMANS TO LOVE AND FELLOWSHIP WITH AND DWELL IN! THAT, IS WHY YAHWEH (GOD) HATES HOMOSEXUALTY!
    IT IS A demon spirit from satan and he does not want more CHRISTIANS BORN FOR GOD TO INHABIT!
    ——-
    Deuteronomy 23:17. There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a Sodomite of the sons of Israel.
    18. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a DOG , into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

    NOW, the term dog here means male prostitute: AND , YOU CAN CLEARLY SEE WHY GOD WOULD CALL THEM DOGS!!!

    NOW, LET US SEE WHAT THE LORD JESUS SAID ON THE SUBJECT:
    Revelation 22: 15. For without are DOGS, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    NOW, SO AS NOT TO LEAVE OUT :
    ROMANS CHAPTER 1: 16 – 32
    WELL JUST READ IT FOR YOURSELF!!!

    I am a servant of the MOST HIGH GOD and YAHWEH IS HIS NAME , THESE ARE HIS WORDS, PLEASE , DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME, TALK TO HIM ABOUT THIS !!

    • MisterPine

      That was painful to read. All those screaming capital letters. Don’t do it again.

      • Guest

        The reason for my CAPS; well, I was once a fireman and I NEVER EVER WHISPERED ” IS ANYONE IN HERE , GET OUT , YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!”

        ” HEY AMERICA, (humanity)YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!”

         

         

         

         

        The reason for my CAPS; well, I was once a fireman and I NEVER EVER WHISPERED ” IS ANYONE IN HERE , GET OUT , YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!”

        ” HEY AMERICA, (humanity)YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!”

      • gregkliebigsr

        The reason for my CAPS; well, I was once a fireman and I NEVER EVER WHISPERED ” IS ANYONE IN HERE , GET OUT , YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!”

        ” HEY AMERICA, (humanity)YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!”

  • jjhot254 .

    reading the article, perusing the replies, its sad, really, read the whole bible in its context, in God’s context, and in your heart of hearts, you know its wrong, come on let be honest, our innate nature given to us tells us its wrong

    • Kris Howard

      I agree that these folks should know in their hearts that this kind of hate and judgment is wrong and not Christ-like.

  • Jon

    Thank goodness it doesn’t represent the “God of the bible”…because that man-made deity is a misogynistic psychopath and knows nothing about real love. This God’s word is just what ancient warlike man used to justify their genocide and oppression. Three cheers for mankind evolving into a more compassionate, inclusive being!!!! This is wonderful news.

  • Jay Mark

    For those of you who support a disgusting lifestyle, this is not the place for you. For my fellow believers, you know the truth and the truth has set you free.

  • gregkliebigsr

    Biography of Greg Liebig Sr.

    A Servant Of The Most High God

    On Monday Jan. 17th 1977, I became a Christian, I accepted by faith, JESUS (YESHUA) as my Savior and Lord . In 1984, I accepted the call into the Gospel Ministry. I Pastored a church in Monterrey La. for nearly 2 years in 1986-1987 . As a licensed, Full Gospel Minister, since 1986, I have been given the task to present to all of humanity this work of love from God our Father ! Since our move to Tennessee in 1999 I do Evangelism work and write messages as the Lord puts them on my heart.

    Also, I am a published author “This Is It’’ by Dorrance Publishing in 2005. You can find it on Amazon .com books.

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry. He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, (to me He said America and the world)

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    21

    Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

     

     

     

    Also, I am a published author “This Is It’’ by Dorrance Publishing in 2005. You can find it on Amazon .com books.

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry. He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, (to me He said America and the world)

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    21

    Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

     

     

     

    On Monday Jan. 17th 1977, I became a Christian, I accepted by faith, JESUS (YESHUA) as my Savior and Lord . In 1984, I accepted the call into the Gospel Ministry. I Pastored a church in Monterrey La. for nearly 2 years in 1986-1987 . As a licensed, Full Gospel Minister, since 1986, I have been given the task to present to all of humanity this work of love from God our Father ! Since our move to Tennessee in 1999 I do Evangelism work and write messages as the Lord puts them on my heart.

    Also, I am a published author “This Is It’’ by Dorrance Publishing in 2005. You can find it on Amazon .com books.

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry. He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, (to me He said America and the world)

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    21

    Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

     

     

     

    Also, I am a published author “This Is It’’ by Dorrance Publishing in 2005. You can find it on Amazon .com books.

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry. He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, (to me He said America and the world)

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    21

    Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

     

     

     

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry. He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, (to me He said America and the world)

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    to a rebellious nation

    (

    and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    he hath done shall not be remembered;

    but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21

    21

    Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

     

     

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth.

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

  • gregkliebigsr

    THIS MAY HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I DO WHAT I DO !!
    Biography of Greg Liebig Sr.

    A Servant Of The Most High God

    On Monday Jan. 17th 1977, I became a Christian, I accepted by faith, JESUS (YESHUA) as my Savior and Lord . In 1984, I accepted the call into the Gospel Ministry. I Pastored a church in Monterrey La. for nearly 2 years in 1986-1987 . As a licensed, Full Gospel Minister, since 1986, I have been given the task to present to all of humanity this work of love from God our Father ! Since our move to Tennessee in 1999 I do Evangelism work and write messages as the Lord puts them on my heart.

    Also, I am a published author “This Is It’’ by Dorrance Publishing in 2005.

    You can find it on Amazon .com books.

    In August of 1984 the Lord Yeshua by His Holy Spirit called me into the ministry.

    He began to speak from the book of Ezekiel.

    This is what He said to me!

    Ezekiel 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel,

    (to me He said America and the world) to a rebellious nation (and planet) that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.

    Ezekiel 3:8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.

    Ezekiel 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel (the world): therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

    18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

    21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

    This, my beloved fellow humans, is the call and work that our Heavenly Father God has given me to carry out.

    So, you see why I am writing these messages .

    Not of my own will or desire but ultimately the will of God, the creator of all that is seen and unseen. The lover of your soul.

    The one we have to do with. The one we will one day see face to face. The one who gave His son Yeshua for the ransom of all the human race!

    The one, whose Blood washes and cleanses us from all sin,JESUS!

    The one and only Way to God our Heavenly Father, JESUS!

    The one, we all must give an account to for our lives here on earth, JESUS !

    With love, yours in Christ Jesus,

    The Lord’s Servant

  • SOCIALISM-MUST-GO!

    The most stupid ignorant people I have ever heard of whom are they themselves making themselves irrelevant before God …….how dare they defy God and tell him his word is irrelevant …..wonder how they will enjoy hearing him tell them the same.

  • revanonymoose

    Well we need to take heed to the commands of Jesus about false prophets(Matt.7:15-23) and reject Mr.Bell! We need to mark him and avoid him(Rom.16:17)! Homosexuality is CLEARLY a sin (Gen.19; Lev.18:22; Lev.20:13; Judges 19-21; Rom.1:18-32; 1 Cor.6:9-11)!
    This is the separation of the True Church from the False Church. The True Church will stick with the Bible(Psa.1; Psa.119; Matt.4:1-11; Luke 4:1-13; 2 Tim2:15; 2 Tim.3:15-17; 2 Pet.1:19-21; Rev.22:18&19) and reject homosexuality! The False will reject the Bible and embrace homosexuality!
    Mr. Bell is clearly a worker of satan(Isa.14:12-14; John 8:44; John10:10; Acts 13:4-12; Acts 16:16-18; Rev.12:9-12) leading many to Hell(Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31; Rev.21:8)! Reject him(Titus 3:9-11) and have no fellowship with him(2 Cor.6:14-7:1; Eph.5:11-14)! And he is what you need to do with his books, cds, dvd’s, etc. that YOU YOURSELF have of Mr.Bell’s(Acts 19:18-20)! I oppose going to stores , libraries, neighbor’s homes and destroying their stuff of Mr. Bell’s.
    That is stealing(Exod.20:15; Exod.22:1-5;Luke 19:1-10; Rom.13:8-10; Eph.4:28)! Clean up your own life and pray and witness(Acts 1:8; Mark 16:15-20; Rom.10:14-17) to your neighbor about their’s!

  • David

    God says that Homosexuality is an abomination , now to the homosexual and those who support this lifestyle ,tell God your views and beliefs when you have your day in his court at the judgement seat of Christ. I wonder how that will go over with him. This subject doesn’t really have to be debated or argued the word of God says it’s sin so what is being said God is a lie, well when U stand before him 2 give in account tell him he made a mistake all Gay and Lesbians were born that way 2 do that which is unsemingly. (David)

  • David

    BY the way 2 all Gay and Lesbians when U face Jesus at his judgement seat tell him what the father had 2 say was hogwash that you had a constitutional right 2 live your life anyway you wanted 2 because U had man 2 make his own laws 2 override any law he gave if it didn’t coincide with what U all wanted. Push that down his throat it’s really going 2 B interesting , so tell God he made the rules And all who support the lifestyle along with marriage this goes for U 2, can U speak twice your time is coming.

  • Davy2010

    First ask who is driving the agenda .It is the same scums mentioned in the Bible more than two thousand years ago , who have in the last hundred years usurped key positions in the government ,politics, mass media ,banking ,and other key areas .

  • Sheadian Whilby Cantu

    The word of God is true….and every man a liar….Jesus Christ is coming back for His bride she has to be without spot or wrinkle or any such thing…..Jesus Christ isn’t coming back for a male Church its not even phatumable (if there is such a word)measure up how you live with the Word of God and make it be your judge,mirror,instructor,….to God be the glory

  • Hectito Risario

    Not by choice nor caused by nature (God). “Homosexuality” can be a medical disorder caused by environmental factors during early sexual development. The saturation of estrogenics and testosterone disruptors in our hormonized meat, chicken, milk, eggs, beer; soy based baby formulas and foods; BPA and phthalates plastics in food packaging, toys, cellphones, laptops, receipts, water bottles, car interiors, perfumes, air fresheners; endocrine disruptors in wi-fi, cell phones and so many contaminated materials, water and food that we are in contact with since before we are born that are constantly injecting estrogens and testosterone blockers into our bodies. It is why we should love even when we don’t understand.

    Watch the documentary The Disappearing Male http://vimeo.com/15346778 …is not just affecting humans. Each factor mentioned above is research based and a variety of sexual disorders from transgenders to dysfunctions caused by hormonal factors easy to find as well. Research gender benders. http://www.psr.org/environment-and-health/environmental-health-policy-institute/responses/male-mediated-teratogens.html