Christian Florist Found Guilty of Discrimination for Declining ‘Gay Wedding’ Refuses Settlement

StutzmanKENNEWICK, Wash. — A Christian florist from Washington who is in jeopardy of losing her business, home and life savings after a judge found her guilty of discrimination this week for declining to fulfill an order for a same-sex ceremony has rejected an offer to settle the matter if she promises to service homosexual “weddings” in the future.

As previously reported, Baronelle Stutzman of Arlene’s Flowers in Richland was leveled with a lawsuit March 2012 by State Attorney General Bob Ferguson, who claimed that she violated the law by not fulfilling the order.

Stutzman had been approached by one of her faithful customers, Robert Ingersoll, a homosexual, as he wanted her to supply the flowers for his upcoming ceremony with his partner, Curt. She states that she politely explained that she would not be able to help in regard to the event, but referred him to three other florists that may help.

“I just took his hands and said, ‘I’m sorry. I cannot do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ,’” Stutzman told reporters.

But after Ingersoll decided to post on Facebook about the matter, controversy arose on both sides of the issue—both for and against Stutzman. The florist said that she received a number of threatening and angry comments.

“It blew way out of proportion,” Stutzman explained. “I’ve had hate mail. I’ve had people that want to burn my building. I’ve had people that will never shop here again and [vow to] tell all their friends.”

Weeks later, Attorney General Bob Ferguson issued Stutzman a letter advising that she must accommodate homosexual ceremonies or be subject to a lawsuit and heavy fines. He included with his letter a form that offered Stutzman the opportunity to recant and agree to comply with the law. She refused, and was subsequently met with a discrimination suit.

  • Connect with Christian News

But the Christian legal organization Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) contended that Ferguson’s actions were inappropriate since he never received a complaint, but rather filed on his own volition. It also filed a motion asking that Ferguson and the ACLU—which filed a separate suit—be prohibited from attacking Stutzman on a personal level.

Last month, Benton County Superior Court Judge Alex Eckstrom—while throwing out a charge that accused Stutzman of directing her business to violate the state’s anti-discrimination laws—ruled that the florist may be held personally responsible for the incident.

On Wednesday, Eckstrom granted summary judgment to Stutzman’s opponents, agreeing that she had committed an act of discrimination.

“For over 135 years, the Supreme Court has held that laws may prohibit religiously motivated action, as opposed to belief,” he wrote. “The Courts have confirmed the power of the Legislative Branch to prohibit conduct it deems discriminatory, even where the motivation for that conduct is grounded in religious belief.”

The court also ordered Stutzman to provide full service to same-sex ceremonies, which includes not only accepting the order, but also delivering to the homosexual celebration, and assisting with the specific arrangements and decoration on-site.

The following day, Ferguson issued a press release offering to settle the matter if Stutzman agreed not to decline orders for same-sex ceremonies in the future.

“Before this case began, my office wrote to Ms. Stutzman, asking her to comply with state law. Had she agreed to no longer discriminate, my office would not have filed suit, and Ms. Stutzman would not have paid any costs, fees or penalties,” he said. “After lengthy proceedings, the court has ruled, the law is clear, and the state prevailed on all counts.”

“Today, I am prepared to settle this matter for a penalty of $2,000 under the Consumer Protection Act, a $1 payment for costs and fees, an agreement not to discriminate in the future, and an end to further litigation,” Ferguson outlined. “I have asked my legal team to craft and present a formal settlement offer to the defendants including these elements.”

On Friday, Stutzman responded.

“Your offer reveals that you don’t really understand me or what this conflict is all about,” Stutzman wrote in a letter to Ferguson. “It’s about freedom, not money. I certainly don’t relish the idea of losing my business, my home, and everything else that your lawsuit threatens to take from my family, but my freedom to honor God in doing what I do best is more important.”

“Washington’s Constitution guarantees us ‘freedom of conscience in all matters of religious sentiment.’ I cannot sell that precious freedom,” she continued. “You are asking me to walk in the way of a well-known betrayer, one who sold something of infinite worth for 30 pieces of silver. That is something I will not do.”

An appeal is also expected to be filed in an effort to overturn Eckstrom’s ruling.


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • thoughtsfromflorida

    It is certainly her choice not to accept the settlement offered as well as to appeal the ruling. IMO this is being driven more by the ADF than her. I hope for her sake that the ADF has agreed to cover any fines or court costs that are levied against her.

  • Gary

    The government has made it impossible for her to continue in the business she had. I don’t think an appeal will work because the courts are in the sodomite camp. I would advise her to sell the business, or close it, and go into a business that reduces her risk from such government trampling of her God-given rights.

    • M Diaz

      hahhah..
      discrimination is still discrimination…and haters like yourself are running out of places to hide…

      • Gary

        I’m not hiding.

        • M Diaz

          do you tell homosexuals to their face you think them to be an abomination?

          • Gary

            When I have the opportunity. But I’m not around them much.

          • M Diaz

            really, what was your last encounter like?

          • Gary

            Not friendly.

          • M Diaz

            more details please, of course it had to have been unfriendly being that you find them disgusting…duh.

          • Badkey

            What happened to you that makes you lash out against gay people so harshly?

            Who did this to you?

          • Gary

            When they began to DEMAND acceptance, and began to try to force that acceptance, I was offended and decided to resist.

          • Badkey

            But you’ve resisted nothing. You are more angry about gay folks than ANYTHING else.

            What personal experience made you this way?

          • spankee

            dont waste your breath, these people who are in such great support of gays do not care about you or what you believe. Ironic isnt it? Accept the gays but cant accept any reason why people dont accept them. Forcing their lifestyles down everyones throat is not a good way to gain acceptance at all esp to religious people. Live and let live but why ruin this woman?

          • M Diaz

            ” do not care about you or what you believe. ”
            why should we, ahem we are adults now and we should be able to understand that behaving like a pathetic bigoted swine is not good for the whole of society, but i suppose your beliefs are to undermine other human being rights to be treated equally then you shouldn’t be surprised when met with resistance

          • spankee

            What about the shop owners rights and religious beliefs? Dont care about what you think either. I have my opinion as you do yours…..

          • Peter Leh

            the shop owner set up her business then complained the government enforced what she agreed to. this is all on the owner. she could have changed her registration or changed her business policy to avoid citation AND satisfy her conscience 🙂

          • M Diaz

            “What about the shop owners rights and religious beliefs? ”
            hey stupid…unwarranted discrimination is against the law…are you really this dumb or does it take some effort to be so stupid?

          • John McGlone
          • Anne Verebely

            Yes -as a Christian I believe their lifestyle is an abomination according to Scripture I read that doesn’t mean I hate them. You can hate a sin love the sinner.I realize you can’t grasp that because you hate anyone that disagrees with you

          • M Diaz

            “I believe their lifestyle is an abomination according to Scripture ”
            ok, but that has nothing to do with the homosexual, so who are you to tell anyone they are an abomination?

            i can hate the belief but not the believer…

          • Rexford Belleville

            Christians don’t define people by their actions, the world does. The actions are an abomination and those who set their heart on committing abomination define themselves. Those who turn from their sin are no longer defined by it.

          • M Diaz

            “Christians don’t define people by their actions”
            i know they are too shallow and judge ppl because they won’t abandon their integrity..pathetic

          • Rexford Belleville

            You are prophetic in so many ways and don’t even know it. Do you know what makes the bible believable? Fulfilled prophecy, just read Gen 19:9-11 and then Luke:28-30 and tell us that you have not fulfilled this on this very board. The time is closer than people think.

          • M Diaz

            self fulfilling…but if you are impressed with the ignorance of ppl who thought sacrificing a scapegoat to appease their god from the things we now understand how and why they happen…fine…i just think you are being stupid.

          • Edward Parker

            no GOD does that in HIS word.

          • M Diaz

            well in order for me to take you seriously, can you demonstrate how you determine what is gods word?

        • M Diaz

          “I would advise her to sell the business, or close it, and go into a business that reduces her risk from such government trampling of her God-given rights.”

          if you are not hiding, then why advise for her to hide?
          coward

          • Gary

            The government is making it impossible to make a living legally without endorsing homosexuality. So, I guess it does require hiding. Or at least deception.

          • M Diaz

            no one is endorsing homosexuality son…no one.
            the gov’t is eradicating discrimination…big difference.

            is someone making you a homosexual?

          • Gary

            The government is endorsing homosexuality, and is trying to force everyone to do the same.

          • M Diaz

            the gov’t is endorsing equality..is someone making you a homosexual?

          • Gary

            The gov. is equating homosexuality with heterosexuality. I don’t agree with them.

          • M Diaz

            you have to agree being that you are not a homosexual…or is someone making you a homosexual?

          • Rexford Belleville

            Christians don’t demand equality for themselves, they defend the innocent that don’t get to choose the moral environment they are given. Who should have the right to decide what is or is not moral for the innocent children? Should those who have adopted a lifestyle that is inherently opposed to having children to serve their own immoral lifestyle be given the right to teach children what is moral? Even the thought of it is rediculous to think about yet society readily accept such discourse because of the slanderous guilt that is inflicted upon them by using a warped understanding that love requires no judgement. Just try raising children on that premise and see what it produces.

          • M Diaz

            “Christians don’t demand equality for themselves,”
            then what are you whining about?

          • Rexford Belleville

            The innocent lives that you are indifferent to. You believe in your own form of morality and I believe in God’s. You think you are superior and should have the right to determine what is moral for everybody rather than adhering to a divine standard.

          • M Diaz

            no it is you who thinks you are superior, you are the one defending sociopathy

          • Ben

            I have the right to discriminate against anything or anyone I feel coerces me against my personal beliefs.

          • M Diaz

            “I have the right to discriminate”

            of course yo do, everyone has the right to be stupid

            “or anyone I feel coerces me against my personal beliefs.”

            is someone making you a homosexual?

          • Edward Parker

            No one, that’s not perverted, in that way, wants to watch it or be part of it. Its just wrong and we don’t want our children being subjected to it either. Discrimination means selecting/selective and in choosing what is best for me and mine, I will always discriminate between good and evil. It is my GOD-given right.

          • M Diaz

            “Its just wrong ”
            based on what?

          • Ben

            Do not deceive, just say NO and mean it. Make a shell corporation, do business under that and if a homo decides to sue, resign and pull a new corporation out of the drawer, $99.

          • Ben

            Your advice is like aids, “Not wanted, not needed and offered without solicitation…”

          • Edward Parker

            why should she put up with persecution from known perverts

          • M Diaz

            you need to establish homosexuality is perverted in order for me to take you seriously

      • Anne Verebely

        She didn’t discriminate she sold to him – she didn’t care. She didn’t want to be part of the wedding- florist like caterers like photographers, like the preacher are all part of the wedding.

        • M Diaz

          “She didn’t discriminate she sold to him”
          she made money off of him and when it came time to actually interact beyond the exchanging of monies, then she was a coward and resorted to hiding behind her religious belief to warrant her discrimination…nothing but a coward and a pathetic ploy at undermining other human beings

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Are you a demon from hell or what? You sure sound like one.

          • M Diaz

            whatever makes you feel better about the hate you hold inside

          • Edward Parker

            See, you don’t even know what love is….you are the one full of hate

          • M Diaz

            i see that you don’t have a shred of empathy

          • Rexford Belleville

            Do you think being slandered and at the risk of losing everything cowardly? She did not make money off of anybody by force so stop the absurdity. She honors God and His word not her own opinions or what is politically correct. She is very brave to take a stand in the face of a world that has become self centered and cares only about preserving their own immoral world view.

          • M Diaz

            “Do you think being slandered and at the risk of losing everything cowardly?”
            now you want it both ways…you shouldn’t concern yourself with ppl remember…? just what god thinks of you..so stop your whining…i mean really, where does your sense of entitlement come from as a christian?

          • Rexford Belleville

            You called her a coward for taking a stand against being forced to participate in the celebration of immoral behavior which could cost her everything. Surely you can appreciate the moral courage that this requires. If not then I don’t see how anybody could possibly believe that you are an objective voice for anyone other than yourself.

          • M Diaz

            “You called her a coward for taking a stand against being forced to participate in the celebration of immoral behavior”

            ahem, no one has established homosexuality is immoral behavior…you haven’t even past go yet because you are too stupid to see that you are only relying on special pleading…where the hell does this entitlement come from you pathetic condescending maggot pus swine

          • Rexford Belleville

            The bible says it is immoral along with many other things that we all struggle with. Religions like Islam demands obedience but only Christ makes obedience possible. Unfortunately You don’t believe the bible even though you prophetically validate it with your own argument, Gen 19:9-11 and Luke 17:28-30

          • M Diaz

            “The bible says it is immoral”
            and that is something you expect me to take seriously?
            if you can demonstrate HOW you determine the bible is relevant that would be helpful you twit

          • Rexford Belleville

            show me what you use to determine what is right or wrong and I will show you your god. The bible is the only book that provides meaningful answers to meaningful questions and is the only believable source based on fulfilled prophecy.

          • M Diaz

            coward.

            you make the claim homosexuality is wrong with out offering anything to back it up

            “what you use to determine what is right or wrong”

            ahem, i already told you idiot…empathy
            all social animals have that capacity, but there are those who are born with out it and they are called sociopaths…but ppl like you are worse, you are a WILLFUL sociopath

          • Rexford Belleville

            The only thing I have to offer besides the fact that homosextuality is incapable of reproducing itself which means that it is fatally flawed is what I read in the bible which you prophetically and unwittingly confirm through your word and actions but reject with your mouth.

          • M Diaz

            “homosextuality is incapable of reproducing itself”

            do you really expect for me to take this nonsense seriously?

            are you going to tell me that this reason would justify infertile ppl from getting married?…or is that when you conveniently apply a double standard…pathetic

            “is what I read in the bible”

            so freaking what!!! the bible in only relevant to YOU
            in order to not come across like a complete b.u.t.t. whole, arrogant swine like you do is when you can DEMONSTRATE how the BUYBULL is relevant

            get over your delusional state of grace, you’re as appealing as vomit

          • Rexford Belleville

            The fact that some heterosexual couples can’t reproduce is irrelevant to the fact that NO homosextual couple can reproduce and naturally sustain their lifestyle on their own which means that it is in contradiction to itself and without any purpose other than to serve itself. The truth is not true or relevant because it is believed by some but is simply is true even if it is rejected.

          • M Diaz

            “heterosexual couples can’t reproduce is irrelevant”

            hahhahha…
            i see now you are struggling in the pit of your own despair stupid….you said if a couple couldn’t reproduce…based on THAT you set the STANDARD…unable to reproduce

            so now for some reason when the very basis was “unable to reproduce” in regards to HOMOSEXUALS

            now you are saying
            homosexuals are perverts because homosexuals are perverts
            I. AM. ASKING. YOU. TO. DEMONSTRATE. HOW. YOU. CAME. TO. THE. CONCLUSION. HOMOSEXUALS.CAN’T. GET. MARRIED.

          • Rexford Belleville

            for the same reason why a child cannot be born without being the product of one man and one woman

          • M Diaz

            so then you would tell an infertile heterosexual couple they can’t get married….it helps to be consistent otherwise you look like a hypocrite…

          • Rexford Belleville

            The fact that some choose not to or even can’t does not eliminate the fact that humanity continues because of the actions of heterosexuals and not homosexuals which means they are not equal unions in nature or in kind.

          • M Diaz

            wow you are dumb….
            one doesn’t have to be married to have children…
            i am actually embarrassed for you

          • Rexford Belleville

            My claim does not need to be mutually exclusive to be fundamentally correct.

          • M Diaz

            yes it does cause it has to do with the treatment of other ppl you moron

          • Rexford Belleville

            You are obviously morally superior in your hatered of a certain group of people.

          • M Diaz

            no i just claim to be more honest then you…

            remember it’s YOU who has the audacity to claim to be representing a MORAL SUPREME BEING …not me you desperate lying slug

          • Rexford Belleville

            You can call me a liar but that does not make you honest or right. I do not believe in myself and I don’t need your validation unlike what you and others are demanding and in fact needing from other people.

          • M Diaz

            “I do not believe in myself”

            that’s why you are pathetic.

            ” and I don’t need your validation”

            then why are you conversing with me…you sure do lie a lot

            “you and others are demanding and in fact needing from other people”

            you are so disgusting…it is your pathetic ideology that seeks to demean ppl by not acknowledging their human existence

          • Rexford Belleville

            you are baiting people into saying things that will make you feel justied in your hatered of them, you take joy and satisfaction in feeding the hate in others as well as yourself. Your entire purpose here is to cause as much bitterness and hatered that you possibly can.

          • M Diaz

            ” you are baiting people”

            wow stupid…discrimination cages ppl

          • Rexford Belleville

            People cage themselves

          • M Diaz

            nope.. it’s the unjust and prejudicial treatment of people on the grounds of hatred is what cages ppl, why do you think there is contention you stupid twit?

          • Rexford Belleville

            So you do believe in something

          • M Diaz

            and my beliefs are never associated with discrimination

          • Rexford Belleville

            You discriminate against the people you hate for discriminating so you have no moral authority to decide who is right and who is wrong and neither do I which is why I rely on the bible.

          • M Diaz

            “You discriminate against the people you hate”
            hey stupid….voicing my opinion about hater’s intolerance isn’t discrimination…

          • Rexford Belleville

            you can’t have it both ways and expect to be right in your opinion

          • M Diaz

            pay close attention, stupid…
            my opinion is supported by the constitution…unwarranted discrimination isn’t

          • Rexford Belleville

            Nice to see that you qualified the discrimination as unwarranted, we finally agree, praise God! He is able to redeem all things.

          • Lynda Falls

            Acts 3:19
            Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
            Matthew 23:37
            O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
            In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Luke 13:34
            O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Equal respect for equal rights would do.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Ooo, that sounds like the florist’s approach to her customers.

            “… morally superior in her hatred of of a certain group of people …”!

            Thanks for pointing that out.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Three or more can participate in the creation of a child — follow the news!
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I don’t recall anyone transcribing the “word of God” as saying,

            “… I am thy lord (bread maker), and I say:

            … sell flowers to gays for their private bedroom where they probably “do the nasty”, that’s okay …

            … just do not sell them flowers for their wedding, where they publicly proclaim their dedication to each other and family, in front of family and all society, that’s not okay …”

            I’m flippin’ through my Bible, and I cannot even find the instruction on setting up a “Christian business”.

            I see all this “give it all away” stuff, but no “get rich quick” stuff.

            And I certainly can’t find any “discriminate” stuff.

            After all, remember what Jesus said about homosexuality:

            .

            .

            O, Jesus didn’t say anything about homosexuality.

            Oh well.

            Maybe you can speak for him, eh?
            .

        • Paul Hiett

          Anne, if a business offers a product or service to the public, they have agreed to abide by the laws of commerce. Why should a religious belief, one of thousands, trump the laws of everyone?

          • Rexford Belleville

            You wrongly assume that the law existed before the business. The law now requires direct participation in activities that are destructive to the human soul which no Christian can support. Furthermore this law requires honoring mans law above God and is therefore an act of worship and form of state religion that is imposed upon us.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, @rexfordbelleville:disqus,

            The law requires no discrimination.

            If she offers goods and services to anyone, then she offers those goods and services to everyone, no exceptions.

            If she does not want to participate in what to her is a sin, then don’t offer goods and services that can be used in a sin.

            She’s the boss.

            She does not have to offer ANY goods and services.

            The choice is completely her’s.
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            I have peace and have spoken it. Now you are free to speak yours regardless of who is right.

          • Rexford Belleville

            For someone with the last name Blaise I would think it would be very beneficial to you if you read what Blaise Pascal has to say about man made laws in and culture, how they are made and how rediculous people are for demonizing them and relying on them as if they somehow reflected a pure form of justice to any degree. The law is your god when you agree with it and is satan when you don’t, everybody has a religion and believes in something. Every Christian understands their obligations to obeying man’s laws Rom 13, but we also know the day will come when we can’t, John 9:4, Rev 13. At that point there will be no agreement regardless of the arguments.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yer point?

            The florist was not motivated by Christian religion to deny access to her otherwise publicly available goods and services.

            A true Christian would not even own anything, let alone a shop.

            A true Christian certainly would not discriminate or judge others.

            A true Christian …

            … oh, by all means, let’s not argue!
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            A “true Christian”? It sure seems that those you would agree with are the only ones who are publicly declaring themselves righteous (self righteous). Point: you don’t seem to understand much about the nature of man made law but love to be a judge of it.

      • spankee

        shes free to sell to who she wants as is most private businesses. The gay guy should have taken her 3 recommendations and got his flowers there. Seems to me he made the problem, she was gracious about it all. Damn shame really

        • M Diaz

          “shes free to sell to who she wants as is most private businesses.”
          hmmm, you see we live in a society, a society which includes the right to happiness and that right is protected by the constitutional republic we live in which seeks to eradicate discrimination and why such laws that exist because of the tenet: we are all equal as citizens of the USA…got a problem with that? if you do, I suggest you move into a cave

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            So your saying that the right to happiness is not extended to Christians even though the free exercise of religion is protected by the Constitution. Religion is also a protected class but if your a Christian that doesn’t apply because lack of support for homosexual marriage means you have to be punished. The government will dole out that punishment regardless of the Constitutional protections on religion claiming it only protects the belief. How does one exercise a belief without action?

          • M Diaz

            “So your saying that the right to happiness is not extended to Christians even though the free exercise of religion is protected by the Constitution.”

            2 questions…
            1. are you FIRST an american citizen or a christian?
            2. does discriminating others make you happy?

          • Paul Hiett

            Rebecca, religious rights end where the rights of others begin, plain and simple. This woman is NOT being sued for her religious beliefs, she is being sued because she broke the law. I don’t know why this is so hard to get through to people.

            As for exercising your beliefs through actions, you are still fine to do so as long as that action does not affect another person. In this case, a business owner must abide by the laws that govern commerce, regardless of her religious beliefs. A consumer does not run a business, and therefor is not bound by that law.

            Either a business owner accepts the laws and runs their business, or they do not, and risk either losing their business, or losing lawsuits. That’s simply the law in this country.

          • Rexford Belleville

            People have been in business their entire life and now it is their fault when the laws are changed? When it is now against the law to honor God above man then the law has become the god of man.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Well said.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, Rex, businesses must accept changes to the law, as everyone does. If a speed limit is suddenly lowered, does that mean everyone who used to drive on it can still go the same speed?

            And I hate to burst your bubble, but your god is not mine, nor the god of others. The law of man is the only law that matters here on Earth. If your religion is true, then when you pass you’re all set, but while you remain here on Earth, in this country, then you can either obey the laws, or suffer the consequences.

          • Rexford Belleville

            You are right this world is not my home and I will not worship man or their laws when they require me to even if they want to help me pass on.

          • M Diaz

            “People have been in business their entire life and now it is their fault when the laws are changed?”
            do you even think?
            ppl had been owning slaves at one point and now it would be illegal to own another human being…i wonder if you are this dense when it comes to other topics…i have a strong sense that IQ’s drop substantially when taking the bible as meaningful in any capacity other then a commentary about how a cult formed from another cult…

          • Rexford Belleville

            If you did not envy the position of people you stand against then you would not feel it necessary to be condescending to them. I reject your moral equivalence of slavery and homosextuality. Let’s face it you don’t want others (Christians) to judge because you want to be the judge along with the people who would agree with you.

          • M Diaz

            “If you did not envy the position of people you stand against”

            it’s not envy, it’s the reaction to the deplorable appeal to an imaginary authority that would sanction the mistreatment of other human beings…a cowardly tactic i may add since you have no other reason to hate ppl

          • Rexford Belleville

            You consider hate to be anything that does not agree with what you want to do because you believe that you are your own moral authority and that makes you your own god. You and people like you want to be your own little god that becomes more powerful depending upon the number of people you are able to convince into agreeing with you.

          • M Diaz

            “You consider hate to be anything that does not agree with what you”

            no, i consider hate the deplorable way christians disregard other human beings…

          • Rexford Belleville

            Christians love God above man which is why man hates them. Christians love enough to speak the truth and suffer for doing it because love suffers long. Nobody wants to hear truth that would cause them to reject what they do if in fact they love what they do.

          • M Diaz

            “Christians love God above man”

            i know, that is why you’re a bunch of sociopaths

            “Christians love enough to speak the truth”

            i wouldn’t call it love…
            love is patient and kind and holds no ill will nor envious or boastful …as a parent i think i have an understanding of what love is

          • Edward Parker

            Without GOD there is no true love because GOD is love.

          • M Diaz

            can you demonstrate how you determine god is love without the appeal for special pleading you twit

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I’m happy for you.

            Now sell the dang flowers to the next customer, take the money, pay the rent, and move on.

            Don’t discriminate.

            It’s hateful and Godless.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            And the Gay Christians, and Christian Gays probably agree with you, somewhat, and want to buy flowers for their church weddings, unencumbered by discrimination, just like anyone else.
            .

          • Melody Rainer Tregear

            No such thing as a homosexual Christian or Christian homosexual. The two are diametrically opposed. If you are a Christian, you will not be a homosexual and if you are a homosexual, you are not a Christian.

          • Edward Parker

            That is so NOT true. We have something you lack, in fact many things you lack but the most important one is love. We do NOT hate these sad people we love them in Christ, GOD loves them but HE does not tolerate sin…HE forgives it and helps to change it. HE even sacrificed HIS son to make a way for those lost to sin.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            And, more importantly, Jesus set an example of not running a business.

            There is no such thing as a “Christian business”.

            You’re either a Christian.

            Or you’re a business.

            You cannot be both.

            Or you end up doing both so poorly that you are neither.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Equal rights are not a percentage game.

            One person on their own deserves equal rights.
            .

          • Edward Parker

            lol….you really are lacking, in more ways than one. I feel sorry for you and I will pray for help for you and I sincerely hope you get it/accept it.

          • M Diaz

            whatever makes you feel better about your willful sociopathy and the desperate appeal to an imaginary sky daddy who is there to protect your hate…you disgusting s.h.*.t bag

          • Ben

            The way I see it,m M Diaz is the ONLY disgusting s.h.*.t bag here. Because you burden yourself with my beliefs and I couldn’t give half a s.h.*.t what you believe. Believe whatever you want but leave others alone.

          • M Diaz

            “Because you burden yourself with my beliefs ”
            ppl are being marginalized and because i have thing thing called empathy, ppl like you who are willful sociopaths who choose to be very discriminant with it, are the haters that will hide behind a supposed supreme being, talk about over compensation…

          • Ben

            I can believe whatever I choose to believe. It’s America. I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If it makes me happy to believe in little green men or one enormous GOD, then that’s my right. Just as you have the right not to believe. However, you do NOT have the right to persecute anyone for their belief or lack thereof. I am not championing any one belief system, I champion my freedom to select any belief system I feel makes ME happy. You can go screw a cactus for all I care.

          • Ben

            Believe how you want, leave others alone.

          • M Diaz

            hahha. whatever makes you feel better for defending sociopathy you deplorable POS

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Great advice for business owners.
            .

          • M Diaz

            “I can believe whatever I choose to believe. It’s America”

            of course you can stupid twit! you just can’t mistreat ppl because your beliefs tells you too…you stupid sh*t bag…what you are suggesting is anarchy…you stupid stupid fool

          • Ben

            I see, so what you’re really saying is that you’re a left-wing looney toon and want to control every aspect of your neighbor’s life. Tell them what they can read, hear, say, think, etc. The last man that tried that killed millions of people. I don’t want to interfere with anyone else’s life. I just want mine left alone.

          • M Diaz

            nope, what i am saying is, if you had a gun and you saw me, you would be justified in murdering me because your beliefs allowed you to…

          • Ben

            What belief would that be? “Thou Shall NOT Kill” is one of the Christian’s highest laws. Unlike those that have no ideology or a corrupt one such as Islam that says to exterminate all non-believers.

          • M Diaz

            “What belief would that be?”

            a belief that was sanctioned in the bible you stupid twit…

            leviticus 20:13

            “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

            “”Thou Shall NOT Kill” is one of the Christian’s highest laws.”

            well of course it is it’s one of the highest laws for everyone…but according to your buybull that isn’t extended for homosexuals…

            boy you’re stupid

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oy, ignore Cristian holocausts, and misquote non-Christians.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Cool, then don’t become a public facing business with loads of regulations, that Jesus would probably say, “just obey them”.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Love them cacti …and your imagination!
            .

          • Lynda Falls

            Yup, they know in their hearts God is real.
            They are equal.
            They do have freedom of choice to do as they choose.
            They deserve kindness and to be treated with respect and gentleness.
            They have the right to choose what they believe just like others do.
            They cannot force other people to agree with them.
            They cannot force others to approve of their choices.
            They cannot control other peoples actions anymore than others can control their actions.
            They cannot control other peoples beliefs anymore than they want people to control their beliefs.
            They cannot control what religion others have.
            They cannot force people to support them anymore than they want to be forced to support things they do not agree with.
            Everyone has free choice.
            Everyone will stand before Jesus one day.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            … and Jesus will ask, “… did you obey the law, and not discriminate? Remember I said, whatever you do to the least of them, you do to me?” …
            .

          • Lynda Falls

            It is never unloving to tell the truth and stay true to righteousness and refuse to take part in a procedure that damages others souls. She sold them flowers plenty of times before and was always kind to them but had too much love to participate in an event that was damaging to their souls. Taking part in their wedding is in essence condoning/blessing something harmful. That would also be spiritually and emotionally harmful to her as well and her soul matters too. There are other florists that could have provided the service without it hurting their conscience.
            This lady still cared about those people and was always kind to them, just spiritually and emotionally could not do that without destroying herself. She never hated the gays and was always happy to sell to them and serve them and was always kind to them but this was against her conscience. She has rights too.
            Ezekiel chapter 33

            7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

            10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

          • Lynda Falls

            Jesus does not condone sin as it destroys people spiritually and Jesus loves people so much that He speaks out against it and also came and died for the sins of all mankind so that they could be spared hell and giving everlasting life for all who repent and make Jesus their Lord and Saviour. All people are equal and deserve kindness and love. All people have freedom of choice and can choose to repent and be saved. The answer is not to justify our sins but rather to cry out to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation and that goes for all people. All people deserve to hear the truth, the gospel so that they can make the choice to repent and turn to Jesus who died for all and rose again triumphant.

            Matthew 11:21

            Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
            John preached against sin and it was considered unloving and offensive and he got beheaded.

            Matthew 14:10

            And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison.

          • Melody Rainer Tregear

            Actually, no … He won’t. Because while we are to obey the law, we are first called to obey God. So if the law contradicts God, we must obey God.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s not comparing homosexuality to slavery.

            It’s comparing discrimination to discrimination.

            Look to the discriminator, not those discriminated against.

            All they wanted were flowers for their wedding.

            Why scrutinize them for reasons to say no?

            Especially when it’s against the law to discriminate against an entire class of people from the general public.

            People.

            Real, regular people.

            Neighbors, family, friends, business workers, police, military.

            Tax payers, voters, government workers.

            In this case, a loyal customer.

            What a hateful bigot to say no.

            She should get closer to her Jesus and give it all away and live in poverty as Jesus owned nothing.
            .

          • Edward Parker

            no, I see where you are and I prefer my IQ thanks! These people try to make conflict wherever they can to get publicity and hurt others who want no part of their sin, but still care about them. The guy could have gone elsewhere but he didn’t because he wanted problems for the woman. The fact that our country lets these people hurt others is disgraceful and the govt will pay for its evil.

          • M Diaz

            ” and hurt others who want no part of their sin, ”

            last i checked, he only wanted her to do the flowers for his wedding…

            “The guy could have gone elsewhere”

            Jim Crow is illegal.

            “but he didn’t because he wanted problems for the woman.”

            she brought those problems on to herself, usually ppl respect ppl by default however desperate christians seek to demean ppl…and this arrogance is being squished … “a haughty spirit comes before the fall”
            soon there will be NO excuse to discriminate…time to move into a cave i suppose…but i am assuming your knuckles are already dragging on the ground…

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It sure doesn’t look like care if you discriminate and deny them equal access to otherwise publicly available goods and services.

            The florist hurt herself by abusing the power of her public business license to discriminate against an entire class of US citizens.

            You probably wouldn’t like it if you paid your taxes, fought in our wars, then got turned away from the same place others could shop.

            We got rid of legalized class discrimination … how many years ago?

            And now these bass-ackward folks want to bring hateful bigoted discrimination back?

            Jeesh.

            I mean, Jesus!
            .

          • Lynda Falls

            yup

          • Peter Leh

            it is called business. the rules can;t be the same today as they were 50 years ago. as a business owner you roll with the punches.

          • Rexford Belleville

            I guess you are right and when the day comes when the gov requires our worship of man in one form or another we will all be faced with our own decision.

          • Peter Leh

            we do everyday. what is incorrect is to suggest this lady had NO choice. she had plenty of choice were she could continue services and not violate her conscience. 🙂

          • Rexford Belleville

            The conscience is a curios thing and is a lot like our reason but it’s not. Regarding a fellow believer we can question their reason and even demolish their arguments but we are told to respect and even protect their conscience. We are also told that by encouraging a believer to violate their conscience in matters that are not made explicitly clear in the bible that we are harming them. We all believers want to honor God above everything some people are able to do it in a tavern while others live in a church. At some point we will all face our own decision when we come to that line that we cannot cross without compromising everything we believe in. I am not about to be the one to push a person over it.

          • Peter Leh

            neither will i.

            but i cannot put this woman in the category of “martyr” when all theses options are before her.

            “don’t say it can;t be done when others are doing it” to paraphrase an old saying. why has dan cathy not ben cited? because he knew and followed the law. so can all of us, including her.

            imo, she is a victim of religious lawyers (or lawyers) who have no liability to their to her consequence. they gave poor legal advice. It cost HER not THEM.

            they did not, as far as i can tell. inform her of her legal options under law to protect her (ex the baker in co. and the hitching post in idaho.) the AFD lawyer will go home and sleep and go to work. she may not have that opportunity, based on their advice.

            we can all learn for her unfortunate situation.

          • Rexford Belleville

            i guess I am not understanding all the options. If I had a wedding band and was asked to sing for a gay wedding I would say no. If I was a wedding decorator, photographer, or priest who was asked to participate in an act that I believed was destructive to their soul with potentially eternal consequences I would say no.

          • Peter Leh

            “i guess I am not understanding all the options.”
            the options? they are listed on the sos web site. are you are corp? self employed? religious corp? 501c3?

            arlene’s flowers had the same information. unfortunately, she received bad legal advice and had poor business policies.

            the ADF lawyers did not have the risk of losing THEIR house or lose THEIR business. let that be a lesson.

            as a christian AND a business owner i am just try to educate. 🙂

          • Rexford Belleville

            I understand their are legal issues but what does following the law do for me if in doing so I compromise my faith and violate my conscience? You can’t tell a person that following the law will always allow them to exercise their faith and satisfy their conscience or at some point they will end up serving the Antichrist and feel good about doing it.

          • Peter Leh

            there is no compromise of faith if you set your company up correctly… so far.

            i dont know what the future holds. but as of today it is possible.

            i don’t speak of what if but, as of today , what is….

          • Rexford Belleville

            I am sorry because I don’t mean to be argumentative and I will let you have the last word on it if you so desire. However, I know that our faith is both common and personal and while we are all able to speak to what is common for all of us none of us are able to say what is personal to us all. We all have our own cross to carry and I pray we all carry it well according to the measure of faith God has given each of us individually.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            If following the law compromises your faith, then get out of that business (or get out of that faith!).

            I’m a vegetarian, and I won’t work in a butcher shop.

            Why would I?

            And I surely wouldn’t take the job, then deny selling meat to carnivores because it offends me!

            If you can’t deal with people who you think are sinners, that severely limits your public facing business options!

            A private job, in a church, selling your knitting online, working in a graveyard — is it okay for you to deal with dead people who might have been sinners when they were alive?

            Jobs behind a desk, government jobs, the post office, part of any big group — tell your boss you just don’t want to deal with some fellow employees … ad hope that your boss isn’t one of them!

            Ya know, Jesus dealt with sinners all the time (and he raised the dead, but don’t try this at home!).

            But then, he left his father’s business to be an itinerant wanderer, a soul man.

            Not much business advice coming from Jesus, then, is there?

            Except to pay your taxes, I guess.

            Love?

            Is love a Jesus-practice that can inform how you behave as a public facing business?

            Try it, you might like it.

            Your customers surely will.
            .

          • M Diaz

            i am very thankful for the freedom of expression as your words only betray your arrogance…

          • Rexford Belleville

            If not sharing in the desire to see people die in their sin makes me arrogant in your eyes then I am content with that. However, In a strange way I feel loved by your reappearance.

          • M Diaz

            a pathetic display of your condescending rhetoric … you have failed in demonstrating the concept of sin is relevant…

          • Rexford Belleville

            I knew that I could count on you! You have been so faithful to me. I am greatly blessed!

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            … and if you were a public facing business, you’d be illegally discriminating.

            … and if you were a private club, you’d not even be advertising to the general public.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I respect her conscience more than she does.

            She promised the state to serve all customers, and then she reneged on that promise.

            Some holy Christian!
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Changed?

            Nothing changed.

            She sells flowers, then he refused to sell flowers — she is the one who changed.

            She did this to herself, and for absolutely no good reason.

            .

          • Peter Leh

            “How does one exercise a belief without action?”

            citizens and businesses have different rule and protections.

          • LK

            Citizens run the business hrm

          • Peter Leh

            they do. however, if the citizen cannot abide by the business policy then the citizen is under obligation to leave…. leaving NO business or allwing another to fill the gap.

            not causing harm to the citizen but keeping the remaining covenant with the state.

          • LK

            Not abiding by the policy is violation even if said situation violates your Constitutional Rights?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh please share your insights on what Constitutional rights are compromised.

            Speech?

            Like when you’re liable if you advertise a lie?

            Forced speech?

            Like when you are liable if you don’t label your consumables according to standard?

            @joshua_l_jefferson:disqus, read the court decisions that address these concerns and tell us which lines you disagree with, and we’ll get into the specifics of which Constitutionally PROTECTED rights you care to enumerate.

            Thanks.
            .

          • LK

            with all due respect not only was i not addressing you, but i don’t feel it necessary to get into “specifics” over something like this, i’m only asking for answers to my very “Not so complicated” questions. I know what the PROTECTED” rights the court decisions validate, at least a moderate portion of it, but telling you what of it- i disagree with is going to prove what ? discussion about it isn’t necessary so chill out.

            And you’re welcome. i guess

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @joshua_l_jefferson:disqus,

            1 — you’re on the world wide web, you’re writing to Google and the whole wide world, forever.

            2 — you said rights were being abused, I asked which ones, you said it doesn’t matter which ones.

            3 — thank you?
            .

          • 敬太郎

            1- You don’t say. i assume i knew that when i found out what a Cloud was sir. i really Appreciate your “words of wisdom”

            2- I know what i said (cause i wrote it thx), and i repeat: i’m not up for discussion about it, so chill out.

            3- Your welcome, i guess?

          • Lynda Falls

            So true. The exercise of religion.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            This is not between Cristian versus gays (show me where the customers here were not Christian), considering the many gay-affirming Christian denominations in the US, some with gay ministers, even married gay ministers.

            This is about accommodating the public when you as a public-facing business advertise your goods and services to the public.

            You can’t suddenly say, “except your kind — your kind not welcome here”.

            She can go private.

            Or she can be like her Jesus and give it all away and serve the needy.

            The phrase “Christian business” is an oxymoron after all.

            WWJD?
            .

          • Edward Parker

            after you I am first

          • spankee

            u seem to be the one w the problem. Im not gay and dont expect people to love me cause I am. Some peoples religious beliefs should come before others “rights” She gave him 3 places to go he should have accepted that and went on about his business. Gay people are extremely over dramatic in case you didnt know that either. maybe next time she should just lie and say shes too busy

          • M Diaz

            “Some peoples religious beliefs should come before others “rights” ”

            yea it looks like you are really that stupid….

            sociopaths think their wants are more important that ppl

            “Gay people are extremely over dramatic”

            are you suggesting being marginalized is nothing to be concerned about?

            filthy scum bag

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “… Gay people are extremely over dramatic …”?!?

            Can you put any more adjectives in there?

            Stereotype much?

            Over dramatic is now a discriminatable class of citizen?

            Do they get a discount on their taxes because they get less services from the licensed businesses in their area?
            __________

            You think she should LIE to avoid providing promised goods and services without discrimination to all comers from the general public … because she’s RELIGIOUS?

            LIE = RELIGION?

            I smell evil, @disqus_iCK4YdE9Th:disqus.

            I think she should turn in her business license.

            And I think you should turn in your religion membership card.

            Or actually go and listen and read more often!

            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          She’s free to sell to who she wants if she changes her business from a public facing business to a private businesses.

          Otherwise, discrimination against an entire class of people from the general public who respond to your commercial offering is illegal, @disqus_iCK4YdE9Th:disqus.
          .

      • Rexford Belleville

        And I wonder who it is that you hate? James 4:4

        • Paul Hiett

          If you’re going to throw out Bible verses, how about Matthew 7:1?

          • Rexford Belleville

            1 Cor 2:15…”don’t judge” is the modern form of don’t work on the Sabbath

        • M Diaz

          well considering the bible is irrelevant to me since i reject it, to have me reflect what that verse means is rather stupid…but since the bible is something you regard as gods word then i can hold you accountable to it…so read luke 14:26 and carry that cross you pathetic convenient christian

          • Rexford Belleville

            Christians love every soul and hate the lives that abuse them

          • M Diaz

            are you pulling that out of your b.u.t.t. whole?

          • Rexford Belleville

            No it is the truth, how can you honestly say that it brings you joy to see people destroy themselves with addiction and all kinds of vices?

          • M Diaz

            addiction and vices? what are you talking about?

            you explain to me HOW you came to the conclusion a persons sexual preference is an addiction or a vice?

            would you agree heterosexuality is an addiction and a vice too?

          • Rexford Belleville

            I don’t make things up as I go according to how I feel. I believe in what the bible says. My question to you still stands. How can you say that you love to see people destroy themselves?

          • Edward Parker

            nope its normal…

          • M Diaz

            normal.
            a safe place.
            no surprises.
            normal is comfortable
            normal is intolerant to the unfamiliar and labels it as evil, so as to justify the want to not see, understand or empathize with…
            normal is stale
            normal is static
            normal is death

      • Ben

        You think you won anything? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Homosexuals made her richer than the dreams of Everest. But instead of denying sales to homosexuals, all she will do now is referrals and not serve ANY customer, period. God will prevail. And so you know, I know 3 already in contact with Mrs. Stutzman that have offered to pay the fines and reward her for not fulfilling the order(s). We choose to help people, you choose to suck rope. Who won again?

        • M Diaz

          “You think you won anything? ”
          yes the court fined her…hahhahha..the law is on my side you scum bag maggot pus

      • FreezeZone

        Love how you write down everyones first line very adult very mature by the way so write this down too ok…… explain to me just how your going to feel when those who you think will be on your side, namely those who are also liberal atheists who are still in the closet themselves sell you out to the Muslims who want not only the Christians dead but the gays too, so how ya gonna feel when that happens? Don’t believe they will favor the Muslims over you? Did you miss the story bout the gay guy/woman who wanted something, I believe it was in the same state too Washington, from a Muslim store owner and the owner said he didn’t serve gays because of his religion and the gay man/woman took the Muslim to court and guess who won. Give up? It wasn’t the gay man/woman that’s for sure. How come we don’t see you gay atheists go fight the Muslims?? Are you too much of a coward or what? Hey heres something to think about…. once we Christians are out of the way and your own gov that you put so much faith and trust in sell you down the road to the Muslims there wont be anything or anyone in the way to stop them from coming after you cause gays are next on the hit parade for the Muslims. At least with the Christians we aren’t beheading anyone for being gay…. you go an try telling a Muslim that you want your rights see how far you get with that when it comes to them. You talk about love?? YOU?? You got venom dripping from every word you write. And don’t worry about MY God YOU will never see MY God cause YOUR god will be waiting for you the moment you take your last breath in hell. 😉 Good luck trying to tell the devil he isn’t real….. just keep telling yourself its not real after all its a fairy tale right? 😉 lol

        • M Diaz

          “Love how you write down everyones first line”

          thanks…

          psst, we are talking about the sociopathy of christianity…focus.

          “How come we don’t see you gay atheists go fight the Muslims??”

          cause you have your head up your Arse…smelling your fine fine farts

      • Ben

        You know what is truly comical about this? THIS COURT RULING NOW MAKES IT POSSIBLE TO FORCE MUSLIMS OR ANY GROUP TO FUNCTION OUTSIDE OF THEIR RELIGIOUS COMFORT ZONE. TO FORCE MUSLIMS TO CATER TO HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGES AND/OR EVEN SELL PORK PRODUCTS TO SAID FUNCTIONS. IN A HALF-ASSED BACKWARD WAY, THE HOMOSEXUALS MAY HAVE DEFEATED ISLAM IN AMERICA.

        • M Diaz

          what are you scared about?

          are you worried that YOUR comfort zone isn’t something anyone but you should concern yourself with?
          poor poor baby, has to share this world with other ppl

          psssst, did you know you are considered an unbeliever to islam already, and do you know what they think about non believers?

          pathetic.

    • RandomUserName13

      Well the main problem is all these false Christians thinking that are actual Christians.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Her “God give rights”, as you say, are complete and unencumbered, @disqus_GLH5yIIEtR:disqus.

      Her state issued license to serve the public is rescinded due to her illegal discrimination, however.
      .

  • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

    …Stutzman had been approached by one of her faithful customers, Robert Ingersoll, a homosexual…

    She took the gay money before. If she had any core values at all, she would have refused him flowers years ago.

    • Gary

      It isn’t clear that she knew that Ingersoll was a kwier before his request for the “wedding” flowers. But if she did, she should have refused his business earlier. But she did draw the line at providing flowers for the sodomite “wedding”. I give her credit for that.

      • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

        Her faithful gay customers pay taxes which support the maintenance of the road in front of her flower shop as well as the police and firefighters who will come to her aid should she need it. Should the gays be afforded a tax deduction for those who discriminate against them?

        Were she a true christian, she would have killed him.

        Leviticus 20:13

        • Gary

          She pays taxes for the road too.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            Yes, Gary. That’s democracy. How does discrimination fit into democracy, Gary?

          • Gary

            People have the God-given right to avoid wicked people. The government is trying to infringe on that right.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            So the government is infringing on citizen’s right to discriminate against other citizens. Is that where you’re going with this, Gary?

          • Gary

            Yes. You and I have the right to choose who we associate with, even in business. The gov. is infringing on that right.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Gary, no you don’t. You will never have the right to discriminate against others in business. That’s the key part you continue to miss.

          • Gary

            I do have that right, given to me by God. And the government is trying to take that right from me. They had better stop.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Gary, your belief in a deity has given you nothing. Man, however, has decided that we can’t discriminate against you for that belief, but neither can you for our beliefs (despite your insistence to the contrary). Logic continues to evade you.

          • Gary

            Try to take my rights, and I will try to stop you, and punish you.

          • Paul Hiett

            Your “God given” right to discriminate was taken from you. I didn’t see you put up much of a fight.

          • Gary

            The fight isn’t over yet. And, I still discriminate whenever I want.

          • Paul Hiett

            But you don’t own a business, and if you did, it would be for long.

          • YU Suk

            So basically I have no right to turn anyone down? if we are to use your reasoning that any business who refuses anyone could be sued for discrimination.
            The gays were wrong, end of story.

          • Paul Hiett

            Pay attention…a business that offers services/products to the general public may not refuse service to anyone based on race, gender, religious beliefs, or sexual orientation (as is the case in her state).

            The laws protect everyone, not just a select few. Now do you understand?

          • YU Suk

            She is a PRIVATE business and as such no one can tell her what to do. After all, a court in Michigan produced such a ruling the other day so things are not as black and white and you would want them to be.

          • YU Suk

            Also, if the gays knew about her faith then going to her and provoking this could be seen as a different form of (provoked) discrimination… and like you said, discrimination is still discrimination.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, read up on the laws governing commerce in this country. Prior to debating someone, knowledge of the subject is crucial.

          • YU Suk

            I guess you are right, who cares about the right of the religious people as long as the gays are protected. It doesn’t work like that and if they provoked her then they should be held responsible as well.
            Thank God Kansas suspended their own gay laws, hopefully more states are to follow.

          • Paul Hiett

            When you say “right of the religious people”, do you actually mean ALL religious people, as in all worshipers of all 4200+ religions in the world, or just Christians?

          • YU Suk

            All religions that are recognized by the United States.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yeah, over 4200+ religions…and you want to open up wanton discrimination for everyone.

            Do you have any idea the ramifications of what that would do? I think you simply speak from a knee jerk reaction, without actually considering what you’re wanting.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yu, I don’t know if you live in America or not, but before you start making such claims, you need to read up on the laws of this country that govern business.

          • YU Suk

            Say that to Michigan… :*

          • Paul Hiett

            Michigan has nothing to do with this conversation. In the state of Washington (and other states, by the way), discrimination against sexual orientation is illegal. Period. Are you simply choosing to ignore the facts?

          • YU Suk

            Hmm what about religious minorities? Aren’t they discriminating against her by forcing her to do something that’s against her own faith especially since there are more than enough pro-gay flower shops in the state of Washington?

          • Paul Hiett

            It doesn’t work that way, Yu. A customer is not bound by the laws that govern commerce the way a business is. The advantage is on the customer to choose whatever business they want, and any business that advertises to the general public must service anyone who walks through the door.

            These are not opinions of mine, these are simply facts about the law. You could use Google and educate yourself about the law as well.

          • YU Suk

            Yes but the customer must not discriminate either which is something they did. Then again, we all know that much of this pro-LGBT nonsense is being pushed through thanks to numerous cash injections from the private sector. This has become especially obvious in the last three years.
            The business must not discriminate but neither can a private person no matter where they are. Obviously they found a loophole and they used it.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yu, as much as you may not like it, the customer CAN discriminate.

            Look, before you go any further…read the law. Don’t argue from your opinion, argue from an educated viewpoint. Read what the laws are first, understand the facts, then debate your point.

            What I am telling you is not my opinion, it’s simply stating the facts of the law.

          • YU Suk

            For the love of God, it’s not the same. Up until that point the guy used to come in, get the flowers and go out, that’s it. This time around he asked her to be part of his world, to take part in their private ceremonies… so he was asking her to act against her own beliefs. Simply selling him the flowers is not the same as organising a gay ceremony. This LGBT nonsense has to stop somewhere, it’s becoming oppressive to those who do not think the same as they do… which is funny as that was the initial argument they used in the 1980s in order to push forward their sick agenda.

          • Paul Hiett

            Does the florist offer wedding services as part of her business?

          • spankee

            You are so correct. Seems those who support the gays, now bash those who dont. Kind of ironic isnt it? Dont treat the gays badly, but treat people who dont support their lifestyle bad. Doesnt quite seem fair or right to me. I dont care about what people do in their lives, but its her choice not to be a part of a gay wedding and he should have accepted her honesty. Seems he got his panties all wadded up and decided to make a big deal out of it instead of going to one of her florists recommendations…. Over emotional they are, which is part of the reason alot of people dont want anything to do with them. If they dont get their way they want to ruin you. You wan to tell the world you are gay? Good for you but you better understand not all people support that lifestyle or care to have anything to do with you if their religion dictates otherwise… Respect them the same way you want respect ….

          • Badkey

            They have the same public accommodations protections in WA that those who choose to follow a religion have in all states.

            Why the hypocrisy?

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            Hey, Gary. Do you think Baronelle ever sold flowers to a non gay adulterer who was getting married for the second or third time?

          • Gary

            I don’t know.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            If she refuses to sell flowers to a gay sinner, and we all are sinners, aren’t we, Gary, to whom could she faithfully sell flowers to?

          • Gary

            She drew a line that she did not want to cross. And you think she was wrong to draw the line.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            So being wishy washy about core values by associating with her kind of sinners and discriminating against other kinds of sinners is okey dokey in your brand of christianity?

          • Gary

            I doubt if she asks all of her customers what kinds of sins they have committed. In this case, she was asked to participate in a ssm, which she has a moral objection to.

          • http://realitybasedbob.sayanythingblog.com/ realitybasedbob

            So you think she might have moral objections to other sinners but will gladly take their dirty money while refusing gay money?

          • Gary

            She did not want to participate in a ssm. But she has the right to decline business from whoever she wants. And it is that right that the gov. is trying to deny her.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, Gary, you’re wrong. She does not have the right to discriminate based on certain criteria…race, gender, religious belief, or sexual orientation. That’s the law.

            Rather than work towards getting the law changed, she chose to break the law. She is suffering the consequences of her own actions.

            If the situation were reversed…if a gay store owner refused to do business because someone was a Christian, that store owner would be breaking the law as well. It works both ways.

          • Gary

            She has the right, given to her by God, to decline associations with those she objects to. The gov. is infringing on her rights.

          • Paul Hiett

            She has no right given to her by any deity. That’s merely a belief held amongst those who have also chosen the same religion as you. There is no law, anywhere in this country, that says that a deity has granted special permission to one group of people but not to another. How you can put yourself on such a high pedestal is beyond me.

            Regardless, the laws of our country trump anything in any religious text, from any religion.

          • Gary

            I won’t tolerate that situation.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then you’ll go to jail, won’t you?

          • Gary

            Only likely if the gov. just locks me up. I doubt anyone working for the gov. would be able to gather the evidence to convict me.

          • Badkey

            You won’t change it.

          • spankee

            dont bother arguing with people. They expect everyone to accept the gays yet they do not respect anyone who doesnt cater to them or agree with them. Who is the real hater here? maybe he should look at what hes done to this woman, she was honest with him she should have lied and said she was too busy too cater his wedding. People want us to accept the gays but they dont want to accept peoples religious beliefs…. Too bad, her only mistake was telling him her religoius belifs which she is now being punished for. I dont care one way or the other about the gay topic, but it seems to me if you arent on their bandwagon then you are looked down upon and that is wrong as well

          • Paul Hiett

            And you don’t want to accept the laws in this country. For some reason, you think the laws should only apply to Christians and no one else.

            Fortunately, it doesn’t work that way.

        • Anne Verebely

          The business pays taxes too for that road – stupid liberal comment

    • Anne Verebely

      He was a faithful customer & he would rather do her in & deprive her of any livelihood rather than understand how she felt – who’s the hater here? She isn’t a hater of homosexuals – she sold to him – she drew the line at weddings- had he been a decent person he would never put her through all this. He loved her business so much he wants to destroy her & it because he didn’t get his way – and it’s still not going to change her mind. Who’s the hater in this? Those of us who have businesses are entitled to treat our business as we want. She never discriminated against him in anyway but she could not do his wedding because florist are basically part of the wedding- when I got married I ran into Florist who couldn’t do my wedding because they were too busy I should’ve sued all of them for not wanting to take part in a heterosexual wedding – ludicrous. From having the experience of having a closet homosexual employee in my business & dealing with his friends many of them are deceitful, vicious and ugly. As a Christian I can also tell you that God rules over all even them. It may look like he won at this moment but down the road he’ll regret what he’s put this woman & business through.

      • Paul Hiett

        First and foremost, discrimination is discrimination, and is illegal. A business may not discriminate against someone for their race, gender, religious affiliation, or sexual orientation. Regardless of what your choice of religion is, it does not trump the laws of this country (or whatever state laws exist in this case). Plain and simple, religion aside, the florist broke the law. You can’t argue that point. That’s why she lost this case.

        Now in regards to her religious belief, she had no problem taking money from this individual, which reeks of her hypocrisy.

        However, all that aside, she could have avoided this issue by simply saying she was booked too far in advance to accommodate him. She chose to divulge her bigoted reasoning for refusing to serve a customer, and in the process, broke the law.

        What you need to understand, Anne, is that these laws protect everyone, even you, from unwarranted and illegal discriminatory business practices.

  • Badkey

    The religious hypocrisy continues.

  • Guest

    “Stutzman had been approached by one of her faithful customers, Robert Ingersoll, a homosexual”

    what a freaking hypocrite…

    she gladly took his money when be bought flowers from her before

    • Anne Verebely

      Doing a wedding makes her part of the wedding not just selling flowers – her endorsement is on the wedding. She couldn’t do that- is she the only florist in town?

      • Paul Hiett

        Anne, she advertised to the general public. Once you do that, once you open a business that sells to the public, you fall under the laws of commerce, and the laws that prevent discrimination. She knew this when she started the business, knowing full well it could happen. It was her choice to either follow the law, or break it. She chose to break it.

        One can argue that this a case of civil obedience, and cite Rosa Parks, which is fine. But, like Parks, when you go down that path, you also have to accept the consequences.

  • M Diaz

    if one is a christian
    one refuses human decency

    • Gary

      Some non-Christians, such as you, love to force people to participate in evil.

      • M Diaz

        like being honest?

  • Gary

    The government is telling everyone, if you want to do business legally in the state of Washington, you must accept homosexuals, ssm, and anything else we demand that you accept. Your freedom of religion stops when you want to be in business.

    • Paul Hiett

      Your “freedom of religion” is also our “freedom from religion” right, and yours ends where ours begin.

      And yes, if you want to do business in the state of Washington, you must sell your products and services to everyone, not just those that share your own belief system. It’s really not that hard to figure this out.

      • Gary

        And yours ends where mine begins. You are infringing on my religious freedom. You had better stop.

        • Badkey

          Threats again, Gary?

          Tell us why this outrage ages you so muc more than abortion, apostasy, adultery, Islam, or anything else.

          • Gary

            Promises. I WILL resist all attempts to deny my freedom.

          • Badkey

            it’s not that. It’s a far more general hatred.

            What happened to cause this?

          • M Diaz

            “What happened to cause this?”
            the imagination of homophobic sociopaths

          • Badkey

            It’s a personal hatred with Gary. Not sure if it’s the closet, or guilt, but it’s something deep in his psyche.

          • M Diaz
          • Paul Hiett

            LOL…poor Gary

          • M Diaz

            wow, and homosexuals are just to allow their freedoms to be taken away?

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            What freedom is being taken away when they can get the exact same service from another person? The freedom to exercise religion is being taken away from this woman and many others.

          • Badkey

            You get the same protections for being a Christian. Why the hypocrisy?

          • M Diaz

            jim crow laws have been eradicated for a reason, perhaps you should spend a little time thinking why that is

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            You really have to wonder how much these trolls get paid for bullying people, calling them names, and making statements so ridiculous that any fool should be able to see through them. But when you are blinded by evil, perversion, and hatred, I guess you think you are being clever. Quite pathetic, really. And God sits in the heavens and laughs, as they mockingly misquote His Word, just as the devil loves to do. How much like those blind fools who tried to destroy Lot and the angels. Right before the destruction of the entire city. No point trying to argue with them, really, they are perverse and deliberately blind, so we are just wasting our time. It is OK. I read the last page of the Bible, and God wins.

          • Paul Hiett

            Who’s bullying and calling names? What statements are “so ridiculous that any fool should see through them”?

          • Gary

            Yes, God wins. And you don’t have to be bullied if you stand up to them.

        • Paul Hiett

          How, exactly, have I discriminated against you?

          • Gary

            You would deny my freedom to choose who I do business with.

          • Badkey

            So, he hasn’t discriminated against you? Isn’t your claim that he has a “sin”?

          • Paul Hiett

            Just admit it, Gary, you don’t want equality, you want preferential treatment for Christians only. And not just any Christians, but specific Christians…only the ones that agree 100% with you.

          • Gary

            I am very willing to allow you the same freedoms I have. Who you associate with is your business, not mine. And who I associate with is NONE of your business.

          • Disqusdmnj

            So by your definition of “freedoms”, you therefore *support* SSM, since you are affording others the same freedoms *you* enjoy, and stating that whom others associate with is none of *your* business.

            You finally came around! I’m so proud of you!

          • Gary

            I am willing to allow everyone to marry by the same rules that I am under. But I don’t support changing what those rules are.

          • M Diaz

            “But I don’t support changing what those rules are.”

            slave owners of the past agree with you

          • Disqusdmnj

            Those rules are changing, my friend, and without concern as to how it makes you feel or if they have your support, because they are being designated unconstitutional, and not how this country will treat its citizens. If you remember, we are bound by our Constitution… not a Torah, Quran, or Bible. Our citizens are equal in the eyes of the State, regardless of what the Church believes. No one’s forcing you or your church to agree with it, but you may as well accept that it will be the law you, I, and everyone else will live under soon enough.

          • Gary

            The US Constitution offers no support for ssm. It might become law, but if it does, it will be temporary.

          • Badkey

            Temporary til your monster comes, right Gary?

          • Gary

            That’s right. Won’t be much longer.

          • Badkey

            Uh-huh… Sure.

          • Disqusdmnj

            The US Constitution also doesn’t support gods, Jesus, Christianity, or straight marriage, either. The Constitution defines our rights as US citizens, and SSM will be one of those rights, because it will fall under the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause.

            But it’s adorable how you think it will be “temporary” after SCOTUS rules in its favor.

          • Gary

            The Constitution does not define ssm as a right. It does not fall under the 14th Amendment either. Equal protection just means that the laws must apply to everyone, and traditional marriage laws always have.

          • Disqusdmnj

            And you just keep telling yourself that, sweetie.

          • Gary

            It’s true.

          • Paul Hiett

            So did Jim Crow laws.

          • Rexford Belleville

            You say you are not making a moral equivalent between racism and sexual behavior but you are. Your premise is fatally flawed because there is no historical narrative that supports it. It is nothing more than a convenient crutch and leads people to wonder if you are glad for the Historical plight of the black man for the sole purpose of using them like objects to support your agenda. Your references and comparisons show depraved indifference to them.

          • Disqusdmnj

            The best part about being a Christianist is that even when your outdated beliefs have been shuffled off to the dustbin, you’ll still think you’re right. I’m sure it’s very comforting, and easier than accepting change.

          • Gary

            My beliefs are still true and valid. I am not going to accept the kind of changes you want.

          • Disqusdmnj

            No one expects you – or your church – to accept them. But you’ll just have to acknowledge that it’s going to become law.

            Although hopefully you won’t still want to execute gay people. That part, you should seriously consider changing.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Of the 33 states that have gay marriage laws only two of them were voted into law the others were directed by a handful of judges and in the case of California the law that was voted on against gay marriage was overturned by a gay judge. It is becoming law not because there is a majority in favor of it but because of a few liberal judges. They attack the law on the false premise that it is unjust when they fail to understand that the law is not based on absolute justice but also on custom. Failing to understand this eventually leads to the destruction of all laws.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Nope. Polls consistently show the majority of Americans are in favor of SSM (although not by a sweeping margin, granted), AND a good share of judges overturning marriage inequality were appointed – not voted – by conservative politicians. It is a judge’s job to interpret the law, and correct injustices when the laws were misinterpreted; that’s what’s happening now, and will happen again when SCOTUS rules it the law of our land. Besides, if we based laws on customs, I don’t think your slave would appreciate that.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Facts are facts and polls are the illusions created by hand waving politicians. All laws are customary to some degree and this is well established and the fact that you clearly articulated a recent example is evidence that you agree with me and disagree with your own words. Laws that require the participation and celebration of immoral behavior in order to function in society will result in a movement that will actively seek the erradication of those people and this was prophesied to happen 2000 years ago.

          • Disqusdmnj

            But see, as the polls are showing that SSM is more and more accepted (fact), it means that fewer and fewer people are finding it “immoral” (also fact). Just because *you* believe it’s immoral for two people with the same parts to get married, doesn’t mean it’s *actually* immoral, particularly when it doesn’t hurt anyone… which makes it far different from slavery, which everyone agrees is immoral… except for the fact that it was condoned in the Bible.

            Again, remember, we don’t live under Biblical or Scriptural laws. There may be some commonalities, sure. But we live under a Constitution, which actually *does* change over time, as people evolve and get smarter and become more sympathetic to those who are different from us. That’s the beauty of not adhering to a book that’s 1,600 years old, written by scores of people, interpreted hundreds of times, different in each one. We have one document that used to say black people counted as 3/5th’s a person, then we fixed it. We used to say women couldn’t vote, then we fixed it. We used to say slavery was OK, then we fixed it. And soon we’ll say SSM is a fundamental American right… and just like all the rest of the changes that fundamentalists thought would destroy the world, nothing will happen besides fellow citizens gaining rights they deserved all along.

            Otherwise, it’s sounding to me like you actually think homosexuals are going to be executed. While I know people on here who seem awful willing to do so, I’d hope you’re not one of them.

          • Rexford Belleville

            But you wrongly assume that you are not hurting anyone. If in fact the bible is true who gets to decide what is moral for those who come after us and don’t get to decide for themselves because they are products of their parents? I don’t base what I know to be right or wrong on how I feel or what is popular. When the laws require not only acknowledgement, and acceptance but also participation and celebration which is a form of worship then they have gone too far. Those who refuse to worship the law above their devotion to God will eventually be the ones who will be eliminated from that society one way or another.

          • Paul Hiett

            What renders your entire stance as wrong is the first word of the second sentence.

            “If”.

            Sorry, but you don’t get to rule me on an “if”.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Your argument here works both ways so while it doesn’t make me right it most certainly does not make me wrong for the same reason which is the context of my point.

          • Disqusdmnj

            To date, the few studies that have been done show that kids raised in SSM households do the same or better than those in “traditional” homes. And certainly better than broken homes, divorced households, single parents, domestic abuse, and the like, which traditional families seem to have a monopoly on (also, they have greater numbers, so one would expect that). You may think the harm is being done in some afterlife, but since that is something we can’t know for sure actually exists, it makes little sense to base decisions and laws in our world here and now on that assumption. You must acknowledge we are a society based on laws, some of which change over time, and in order to be a part of the society, the laws must be obeyed. In this instance, in order for the flower seller or cake maker to enjoy commerce to her community, she must follow the rules and sell the same product to everyone, and not discriminate one class of people based on their orientation. No one is forcing her to recognize or celebrate the marriage, nor the church to engage in the ceremony, but the laws require her to offer the SSM couple the same services as to a traditional bride and groom. If she thinks she is above the law, then I don’t think she needs to be “eliminated” from the society as you say, but she will be penalized by the law just as the rest of us would be expected to be.

          • Rexford Belleville

            If the Laws change and require a form of worship that is contrary to your religion would you obey the man made law or the object of your worship? Who should have the right to instruct a child about what is or is not immoral if there are two groups of adults that don’t agree on what is or is not immoral? Should people who have children decide or should those who live in a natural conflict with having children decide what is best for children? You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Those who have children should decide the moral environment that children receive. If you want to compare what happens to a child when they are raised by two adults that are the same then what about the right of the child to be raised by the two people who were responsible for their existence? You see fundamentally speaking the rights of the children are being completely ignored or marginalized which is an immoral thing for any society to do.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Well, since I don’t have a religion [guessing you figured that out by now! 😉 ], there’s nothing above the law for me to worship, so I follow them, even the ones I disagree with. And legally, there isn’t anything above the law for you either… no court or police will allow you to disobey a law because of your religion. That’s just what we’ve come to accept in order for societies to function, even if they don’t function all that well. It’s the best system determined so far, particularly in a secular country such as ours.

            However, you do bring up valid, considered points… something nice to see on this website, and much appreciated! For the children, yes, their rights and well-being must be considered. So if they have been brought up in a SS household, and cannot enjoy the rights that other children have because their parents are not allowed to be married, then who’s rights are being marginalized?

            As for a child having the right to be raised by their biological parents, that’s just not something our society has agreed is an absolute, hence the entire adoption alternative. Certainly we’ve come to accept that there are instances when a child most certainly *shouldn’t* be raised by their biological parents, such as in abusive cases. So given that the welfare of a child may be best suited in a SSM household, what worthy reasons would exist against that?

          • Rexford Belleville

            You have to be willing to at least start with absolutes and then go from there if you want to gain perspective. Then you can move the goal post in a relative way that makes each person believe that they are good. Unfortunately in such a relative system you can’t count on anything for a long period of time that is getting shorter and shorter each day. I understand that the world is what it is and I am willing to respect the law and obey it as long as it does not require me to violate my conscience in a way that would cause me to deny my faith in God by requiring me to honor man above God.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Well, the issue here is that the florist felt the same way as you do – that having to provide a service to an SSM couple just as she does to a straight couple was against her faith. But, it also happens to be against the law. As long as either of you are willing to pay the consequences for that, there is no further discussion needed.

            Thanks for the civil dialogue!

          • Rexford Belleville

            I agree, John 9:4 tells us to work while it is possible for us because the will come when it will no longer be possible.

          • Edward Parker

            no, the best part is we will both pay for our behavior and beliefs whether you like it or not 🙂

          • Disqusdmnj

            Our beliefs don’t matter unless they instruct our behavior. I believe all people are to be treated equally under the law as US citizens, and that rights cannot be given to one class of people but not another. And apparently… a whole mess of judges are starting to agree with me.

            Beyond that, I’m a really swell guy. Devoted husband, father, son, business owner, tax payer, volunteer, donator, and friend. All your god is worried about is if I love him back, and since he’s never proven to me he exists, that’s kind of a tall order. But if he only judged me by my behavior – as any other rational being would – I’ll do just fine. 😉

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Love the way you capitalize state. It is your god, not the Christians’. And you and your god will answer to the God of the universe, whether you like it or not.

          • Disqusdmnj

            I also capitalized Church. Nothing more than basic writing convention.

            But yes, I’d rather live under laws that change and grow over time, as people learn more and mature in their thinking, versus being held back by rules from ancient texts, written when people thought the Sun revolved around the Earth.

          • Rexford Belleville

            No Christian in their right mind would desire equality for themselves. The whole point for the existence of a believer in Christ is self abandonment to Christ and exalting his life in us. Therefore we protect and defend the innocent that have no voice in the matter and will only receive the moral environment that they are given. We hold the line on what was passed on to us so that our faith is reproduced in the lives that come after us. The only people who demand equality for themselves are those who live for their own immoral interests.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then why are you up in arms about this florist?

          • Rexford Belleville

            Because of those who come after

          • M Diaz

            no, you are just acting like a bigot…your choice of course, but with in the boundaries of the law you cannot discriminate…so what are you a US citizen or a christian…you can’t be both…as one requires you to give up all your human rights…

          • Gary

            You are the one who wants me to give up my rights. That’s dangerous.

          • M Diaz

            you can discriminate all you want, you just don’t get to do that when you abide to the laws of commerce…

            booo hoo hoo for you

          • Gary

            Then I won’t abide by the laws of commerce.

          • M Diaz

            if you are a business owner and being that we live in a capitalistic society, good luck.

          • Badkey

            You mean you won’t open a business. Got it.

          • Gary

            You just confirmed that you don’t want to allow people to make a living unless they accept homosexuals.

          • Badkey

            No, they must follow the law, including abiding by the public accommodations that protect you and your hateful mythology. End those special rights you have and negotiation can commence.

          • Gary

            Yes, you insist they endorse perversion, or not be in business. People are not going to tolerate that infringement on their freedom.

          • Badkey

            Your bloody religion is a perversion, you hypocrite. End your special rights and negotiations can commence. Until you have no special rights, no other citizen should be treated differently.

          • Gary

            I don’t mind being treated like everyone else. You have the right to not have anything to do with me same as I have a right not to be around you.

          • Badkey

            And in WA you are. No more firing people for being gay… Denying them housing… Public accommodations.

            Just like you, Gary.

            Until you have no special rights, no other citizen should be treated differently.

          • Gary

            In WA, you are not allowed to choose who you associate with.

          • Badkey

            Everybody is treated the same.

          • Gary

            People just have to be a bit creative about getting around the laws. It can often be done. And I’m sure it is.

          • Badkey

            But you said you didn’t mind being treated the same…. Are you lying, Gary?

          • Gary

            I don’t mind if others want nothing to do with me, as long as I have the same right. I do mind having people forced on me.

          • Badkey

            You don’t mind forcing your religion on other people. Hypocrite.

          • Paul Hiett

            Who, exactly, has been forced on you and how?

          • Badkey

            Nobody. Gary’s blinded by hate.

          • Gary

            The florist is having homosexuals forced on her.

          • Paul Hiett

            And we’ve come full circle because Gary is too ignorant of the law to understand things. Businesses can’t discriminate Gary, no matter how much you kick and scream.

          • Gary

            They can get away with it if they are clever about it.

          • Badkey

            Without lying?

          • Gary

            I don’t mind lying to people who are trying to harm me.

          • Badkey

            I knew sinning meant nothing to you. You just love to hate.

            What caused that in you Gary?

          • Paul Hiett

            God doesn’t say you are allowed to lie in any given situation.

          • Sarok

            Actually, the florist had a contract, and on the day of the wedding, reneged. That’s not having homosexuals forced on her. That’s her being bad at her job. She broke her contract, and frankly that means she broke the law regardless of her clients sexuality. When people break the law, they get punished. Even the bible teaches us that.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Meaning you don’t have a right to function in this world unless you help participate in the destruction of it.

          • M Diaz

            no, meaning if you are a business owner you have to abide by the laws of commerce and that would include anti discrimination laws

          • Rexford Belleville

            John 9:4 there is no surprise that we are where we are.

          • M Diaz

            you sure need to feel special you stupid pathetic condescending swine…

            you see being that there is no standard to determine you are representing the supposed supreme authority over everyone you just look like a hater who has NOTHING to warrant your hatred by resorting to an imaginary supreme being to justify your hate…talk about over compensation for being insecure, odd considering whom you claim to be representing…

          • Rexford Belleville

            If you want to be the moral authority here then you will have to do better than using hateful words to accuse someone else of being hateful.

          • M Diaz

            i’m NOT claiming moral authority …YOU ARE…

          • Rexford Belleville

            Then why do you insist on laws that that define and require your version of what is morally right on the basis that those who are against it are hateful when you yourself use such hateful language to defend it?

          • M Diaz

            “Then why do you insist on laws that that define and require your version of what is morally right”
            i’m not insisting..you see we live in a constitutional republic, a republic that protects the right of all it’s citizens to pursue happiness…of course your willful sociopathy isn’t included you pathetic slime scum
            it is nothing but sheer human decency to afford equality for all, except ppl like you who only want to undermine ppl for really no reason other than hatred as you miserably fail over and over again to demonstrate the basis of your bigotry

            psst, hatred isn’t a good reason…

          • Rexford Belleville

            So far you and people like you are the only ones who have spewed hatred on this board and you claim exemption on the basis that your form of morality does not have to adhere to moral absolutes. All laws are customary to some degree and there is not such thing as a man made system that has any way of providing absolute justice which is one very good reason why we need the bible.

          • Rebecca Spellmeyer

            Well isn’t that bigoted. If your a Christian your not an American.

          • Paul Hiett

            I would disagree. Christians are Americans. So are atheists, and Jews and Muslims and homosexuals and blacks and hispanics and I could go on and on…

            As long as we are all citizens of this country, we are all afforded the rights we have granted to us by the Constitution.

          • M Diaz

            no if you are a christian, you give up all your human rights in order to gain salvation…you can’t have it both ways

            may i remind you of the ideology you adopted, if you call yourself a christian…

            luke 14: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

            so what is the cross you are to bear?
            so suck it up like a good christian should, otherwise you look like a condescending hypocrite…

          • Rexford Belleville

            We defend the innocent you selfishly defend yourself and the immoral

          • M Diaz

            no, you undermine ppls freedoms

          • Rexford Belleville

            Freedom? I thought you are the one who is requiring everybody to obey/worship your laws that honor man above God? Gods laws are just for everyone to follow without turning them into an object of worship.

          • M Diaz

            “Freedom?”

            yes you twit … freedom from discrimination…

            don’t you know sociopathy is not recognized as a right…??

            you vomitus excrement of fecal matter

          • Rexford Belleville

            Yes I understand that your freedom is the only thing that matters. Don’t you understand that you disqualify yourself as a believable judge of what is and is not immoral when you use such hateful language?

          • M Diaz

            wow, the level of willful unintelligence is stunning…

            this is how it works..

            don’t you know you disqualify yourself as a believable judge when you treat ppl like dirt…so really i am responding to your hate…

          • Rexford Belleville

            offering people hope in Christ for the deliverance of the sin that enslaves them is not treating them like dirt unless they love their sin and want others to love it to.

          • M Diaz

            again you fail miserably at demonstrating HOW jesus is relevant….

          • Rexford Belleville

            The life of Christ that dwells inside of every believer makes obedience to divine standards possible which is why we exalt Christ and not ourselves. Unfortunately many Christians are no different than unbelievers and are living for themselves contrary to what they say.

          • M Diaz

            you still haven’t demonstrated HOW jesus is relevant…

            not to you, you stupid fool…to REALITY

          • Rexford Belleville

            Apart from our own being death is the only reality that is certain for all humanity. What is truly insane is that so many are content to ignore it.

          • M Diaz

            so you have nothing to offer and resort to superiority and you want to be taken seriously?
            seriously?

          • Rexford Belleville

            How serious are you? I tell you with certainty that if you call out to God that He will answer you but if you don’t then you really don’t want an answer.

          • M Diaz

            it is because, you spineless toad, of my once delusional state of mind that i detest any and all god claims….

          • Rexford Belleville

            In other words you once again unwittingly confirm that what the bible says is true, Hebrews 6:4-6

          • M Diaz

            you can never unlearn what you learn, apparently you are too scared to learn
            just because one wanders, doesn’t mean they’re lost..the wanderer is aware they don’t know, nor do they pretend to know…as that would be foolish

          • Rexford Belleville

            I know enough to know that I am in need of a love that is super natural

          • M Diaz

            you really need to feel special don’t cha?
            special enough to justify dehumanizing other human beings…atrociously pathetic

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Christians are just temporary citizens of the state; our citizenship is in heaven, and, as you said, it won’t be long. Keep up the good fight of faith. All the gates of hell will not prevail against our soon-coming Lord and King. Blessings on you and this woman of faith who understands that not to be able to act on one’s faith is not acceptable to God….a huge infringement of the Constitution, as anyone with any sense should be able to see with 20/20 vision, Faith without works is dead. That is what the gays are all about: forcing everyone to accept their ways or lose everything they have, just like the Nazis in the past. The devil is the same through the ages, a liar from the beginning.

          • Badkey

            Here, you’re just citizens and deserve zero special treatment.

          • Paul Hiett

            Once again, you’re simply another person on here arguing from a position of opinion, rather than fact.

            As long as you live in this country, you must either abide by the laws that govern us, its protected citizens, or you are arrested, or fined, etc.

            Homosexuals have no more special rights than you have…and you have no more than they do. We are all protected by the same laws.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Christianity is not an opinion it is a person. Christians honor God by abiding by every law, Rom 13, but must draw the line when they law requires honoring man above God, Rev 13. When this happens the law is nothing more than a state religion that dictates morality at God’s expense.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re hilarious. You’ve posted the same thing again and again in response to every question posed to you. You haven’t actually addressed the questions either, you just post “Christians honor God by abiding by every law, blah blah blah”.

            I’d like to see you actually answer some of the questions posed to you, or are you too ignorant about the law to actually debate the subject?

          • Rexford Belleville

            So now you are the judge of what constitutes an acceptable answer? On those scales you are always right.

          • Paul Hiett

            Try answering some of the questions with actual answers, instead of that cut and paste job you keep putting up.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Cut and paste would probably be a good idea if I wasn’t using this iPad. It seems to me that actual answers are the ones that tell you that you are right and everybody else is wrong.

          • M Diaz

            “Christians are just temporary citizens of the state”

            right, so why are so many christians whining about treating ppl with equality?

            “All the gates of hell will not prevail against our soon-coming Lord and King.”

            ok, once you can demonstrate how that is relevant to reality then i will take you seriously, but until then what you just stated sounds like ‘All the gates of hell will not prevail against our soon-coming Lord Spiderman’.

            “Faith without works is dead.”

            i agree…so why don’t you read luke 14:26 and take up your cross instead of defending your right to whine cupcake…suck it up like a good christian should…as per you lord and savior that is….oh and maybe you should read matthew 5: 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

            “That is what the gays are all about: forcing everyone to accept their ways or lose everything they have”

            wait, is someone making you homosexual?

          • Rexford Belleville

            The gates of hell can’t prevail because Christ already gained the victory. We defend the innocent at the expense of our lives and remain victorious. Who chooses what is moral for a child those who have them or those who don’t? A Christian loves every soul and hates every life that chooses to abuse and destroy them.

          • Rexford Belleville

            You are prophetic in what you say here, but the very law you celebrate/worship is simply a religion called humanism that discriminates against non-humanists and therefore is doing to others the very thing that you hate to have done to you and the people you agree with.

          • M Diaz

            humanism is the only standard that is available for us to determine what is sociopathic…too bad for you i suppose

          • Rexford Belleville

            Please tell us what is the standard for humanism today and who gets to decide it? How about tomorrow? This is a moving target that nobody can possibly believe in. All creation cries out to us that there is a God and rather than cry back for an answer people circumvent their ability to receive an answer by either inventing something or making laws to worship.

          • M Diaz

            “Please tell us what is the standard for humanism”

            wow, you are a willful sociopath aren’t you?
            it’s basic…are you ready?

            empathy.

          • Rexford Belleville

            there is a difference between empathy and forced acceptance/participation.

          • M Diaz

            forced? is your god so stupid that it isn’t able to see you are in agreement with it’s hate towards homosexuals?
            i mean do you really have to be a bully to please your hateful god?

            where is your faith..or do you believe god relies on your actions…hahhahhahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahahhahah

          • Rexford Belleville

            The mouth of a fool is always filled with laughter. I don’t hate a single soul, I hate the sinful life that destroys them.

          • M Diaz

            then your god is that stupid that it doesn’t know the contents of your evil wicked black heart…

          • Rexford Belleville

            There are no exemptions with God and I don’t claim one. This is why God gave His only begotten son not only to die for us but to give us his life that dwells in us. I know that many if not most Christians may claim to have the life of Christ but very few of them actually yield to him which is another reason why people hate us. Nevertheless don’t hate Christ for it in fact our failure only magnifies his faithful love.

          • M Diaz

            “There are no exemptions with God ”
            more empty claims…
            are you even remotely interested in being taken seriously?

            DEMONSTRATE how you were able to determine who and what god is?

          • Rexford Belleville

            If you are looking for a miricle you will have to ask for your own, Acts 17:26-28. When I was 19 I reached a point of complete hopelessness and wanted to die. I cried out to God and He revealed Himself to me.

          • M Diaz

            hey stupid…i am not looking for a miracle

            i am asking for you to demonstrate…
            have you ever considered why it is important for you to be able to demonstrate anything you claim to be AFFECTING OTHERS, which is YOUR BELIEF…keep YOUR BEIEF TO YOURSELF
            otherwise you look like the defecation of swine

          • Rexford Belleville

            Have you ever asked God to demonstrate to you the reality of His existence in full honesty? If not do it and you will have the demonstration you want. If not and you don’t care then it is not right for you to expect to receive anything.

          • M Diaz

            if your god can’t meet me where i’m at your god is too small for me

          • Rexford Belleville

            if you don’t want an answer then don’t ask for one and then claim that there isn’t one and it is not your fault

          • M Diaz

            yes i searched..studied the at life bible college too…went to jack hayford’s chruch on the way in van nuys ca…rededicated my life over and over and over again at christian camp, i was a part of ywam, toured the country in a choir, helped new converts at the church on the way, was a sunday school teacher…so yes…and then i woke up

          • Rexford Belleville

            Okay so I have good news and bad news for you, the bad news is that nobody in all creation can possibly help you Hebrews 6:4-6, but the good news is that all things are possible with God so you still have hope if you want it.

          • M Diaz

            condescending cow

          • Rexford Belleville

            I acknowledge a condition that you claim for yourself and that makes me condescending? I can’t even agree with you.

          • M Diaz

            no no no chump…disagreeing is not the same as discrimination
            you gotta work on your sales technique, it sucks

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I at least appreciate that (a) that’s how it worked for you, and (b) you are gracious and spacious enough to let others experience their own truth — you are a true gift.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I’m glad you were born and are here — you bring a beautiful challenge to my life, and I thank you for that.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “Begotten”?!?

            Who speaks like that?

            Are you mindlessly reciting other’s words, and have no true beliefs of your own discovery?

            Can you imagine living and behaving in such a way that people around you experience you as a loving and inspirational part of their lives, but they never directly find out your specific supporting beliefs?

            In other words, quit with the God and Bible talk, and show us some love.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Hate is hate is hate is hate.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Please explain where you experience force of any kind.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No one but you has your obsession with “worship”.

            I’ve never “worshiped” anything in my life.

            Now have I ever seen a healthy person “worship” anything, ever.

            We just all get along and treat each other with equivalent consideration.

            Try it sometime — you’ll like it.
            __________

            If freedom to think and decide for yourself is too much for you to handle, then cloister yourself off in a back room somewhere.

            Aren’t the choices on the Internet overwhelming for you?

            How did you make it all the way to this page without bursting into flames?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Show me one florist refusing to sell wedding arrangements for non-humanist ceremonies.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Duh.

            Got Constitution?
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          By offering to buy your advertised and publicly available goods and services, I’m treading on your religious freedom?!?

          Oh, please explain.
          .

    • Badkey

      For over 135 years, SCOTUS has held that law can restrict religious behavior, not belief.

      This is nothing new.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Duh.

      New to the Constitution, are you?
      .

  • Matt Weiler

    “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12″Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

    • Paul Hiett

      Well then, good for her…think about all of the good things that await her in the afterlife!

    • Peter Leh

      the issue is a bad business decision is not the same as religious persecution.

      • Matt Weiler

        when your business suffers because of your strongly felt religious beliefs it is religious persecution.

        • Peter Leh

          her business only suffered from her decision to violate her covenant with the state. she could have exercised her religious beliefs AND satified the state covenant. She did not. this is all on her

          • Matt Weiler

            obeying govt law when it comprimises Gods laws is against Christians beliefs. Mans laws always come 2nd to Gods laws. and i wouldn’t use the word covenant to refer to state laws..lol

          • Peter Leh

            “and i wouldn’t use the word covenant to refer to state laws..lol”

            the state does. what does the bible say about breaking covenants? Would keeping a covenant come 1st or 2nd?

            “obeying govt law when it comprimises Gods laws is against Christians beliefs.”

            true. so knowing she could no longer provide a certain service per her covenant with the state, she had a choice: 1) no longer provide said service, 2) outsource, 3) change her registration with the state to a 501c3 or religious corp. 4) close her doors.

            these are probably not the only options before choosing to violate the law she originally agreed to abide. These are not surprises. these are options in her control to avoid state citation AND exercised her said religious belief.

            the citation was bad business policy and to fight it was poor legal advice. BOTH all on her. ask any business owner.

          • MarcAlcan

            what does the bible say about breaking covenants?

            Let’s suppose that the state has progressed to such an “enlightened” state that all citizens are required to get rid of their parents when they become cumbersome – cumbersomeness being solely determined by the state. So the state expects you to kill your parents as part of that covenant with the state.

            I presume you would have no hesitation shooting them or poisoning them in order to keep your covenant with the state.

          • Peter Leh

            “I presume you would have no hesitation shooting them or poisoning them in order to keep your covenant with the state.”

            MarcAlcan…. nothing get past you does it? 😉

          • MarcAlcan

            and you still have not answered the question.
            Evasion does not work.

          • Peter Leh

            no need to evade idocracy. 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            no need to evade idocracy. 🙂

            You didn’t really think about that did you ? LOL.
            Is that why you are living in an idiocracy?
            If you had evaded it you’d be capable of rational thought.

          • Peter Leh

            “Is that why you are living in an idiocracy?”
            Ha. i wonder sometimes. 🙂

            i don;t know why i get amazed at the ignorance of basic business principles. The SOS rules for busienss is for all to read. there are no surprises here.

            “I think
            If you had evaded it you’d be capable of rational thought”

            The funny thing is i am just quoting business law and not giving any personal opinion. 🙂

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thats not how laws work — no one is compelled to do anything.

            Laws prohibit or limit powers, but do not compel behavior.

            Okay, maybe registering for selective service, getting vaccinations, and getting a primary education.

            But those things are generally either self activities, or, oddly, “for the best interest” of children.

            But none are expressions of one citizen’s power at the expense of another’s.

            It would be interesting to catalog laws that can be said to compel.

            None, I believe, have any superior power over anyone but the individual themselves.

            That is, no law can compel someone to kill another, nor compel that other to submit themselves to killed.

            Kind of goes against the 14th Amendment equal protection, don’t you think?

            More importantly, it reveals how absurd you have to become to rationalize your beliefs and desired behaviors.

            Sick.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Thats not how laws work — no one is compelled to do anything.

            Really, the last time I checked you can be put to jail for not doing certain things.

            That is, no law can compel someone to kill another, nor compel that other to submit themselves to killed.

            Ever heard of atheistic totalitarian countries. Ever heard of a place called China where people are compelled to kill babies?

            You really are quire ignorant aren’t you?

            More importantly, it reveals how absurd you have to become to rationalize your beliefs and desired behaviors.
            Sick.

            Please stop writing about yourself here. I know that that is what you are already. No need for you tell others 🙂

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You mean like Jesus who was reported to have said he was here to separate children from their parents?

            Great point, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            Except we-the-people’s self-governance have a separation between church and state, and we would never inflict such a religious imperative on our secular selves.

            Would some Christians complain and want to force others to separate from their parents?

            Sure.

            But they would not have state support for inflicting their preferences on others.

            They choose their own religious belief and behavior for themselves alone.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            You mean like Jesus who was reported to have said he was here to separate children from their parents?

            Peter, do try at least to make an attempt at reason. This is just so dumb. If you are going to quote from the Bible please do so and here’s the more important thing- understand what it is about.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            God did not compel her to become a florist serving the public, nor did God compel her to discriminate, @matt_weiler:disqus.
            .

          • Matt Weiler

            oh you speak for her now, what if God compelled her to become a florist??? what do you know about it? or God for that matter.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Hey, she can go to jail for the cause if that’s her calling — civil disobedience is a very American thing (not a religious thing, though: civil).

            She didn’t say it was, so let’s volley for serve.

            What religion does she bring to her public-facing business that gives her superior rights to discriminate over the availability of her otherwise publicly available goods and services for any class of people from all of we-the-people in the general public?
            .

          • ppp777

            Reprobate answer

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Reprobate?

            That’s a loaded word.

            I’ll let you define it.

            I’ll stay away.

            Conversely, however, my points go to the question of the function of one’s personal religious beliefs:

            — in any culture,
            — especially the Constitutional US,
            — in the licensed and regulated marketplace,
            are our own personal beliefs for ourselves to be expressed as superior rights,
            — over the general public that enfranchises us,
            — over our customers without discrimination,
            — over we-the-people,all equal?

            Others may frame the ‘problem’ differently.

            Reprobate?

            Hurling insults interferes with successful, let alone respectful exchange of ideas.

            But, hey, that’s how some people like to play it — perhaps that was your goal.
            .

          • ppp777

            The fact is she had every right to refuse to embrace a lifestyle that went totally against her conscience , the free market [ including freemarket of ideas ] was also on her side ,the only thing against her was an idiology that like a cancer is spreading thoughout the western world , and the term reprobate is very appropriate here , there was a time america could hold the moral high ground , the opposite is true now the very foundation that made america great [ Judeo / Christian tradition ] is being trampled on big time by reprobates and it is only a matter of time before the western world crumbles , God gave the west great blessings and the likes of you have blown it big time .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @ppp777:disqus ,

            What of our gay citizens, family and friends, coworkers, service folks?

            Isn’t this supposed to be a great country for them, too?

            Isn’t it the highest moral standard to be more and more inclusive of minorities into the “American dream”?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Isn’t this supposed to be a great country for them, too?

            Are gays allowed to work? Yes!
            Are gays allowed to own property? Yes!
            Are gays allowed to vote? Yes!
            Are gays allowed to run for office? Yes!
            What rights are gays deprived of? None!

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            How wrong can you be, @MarcAlcan:disqus?

            Are you really so ignorant, or just plain hateful bigoted stupid?

            Of course you know throughout the country there are no protections against firing gays, denying gays housing and rentals, denying protection and benefits for marriage, partnership, family, child, and survivor.

            And same for trans and other sexual minorities.

            Ignorance is when you don’t know any better.

            Stupidity is when you do.

            Meanness, hateful bigotry is when you don’t even care, and think you are justified.

            Narcissism is when you don’t even recognize the equivalent humanity and godliness in others.

            You are a full-spectrum offender, @MarcAlcan — shame on you.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Are you really so ignorant, or just plain hateful bigoted stupid?

            Stop typing when you are looking in the mirror okay? You end up writing what you see there.

            Of course you know throughout the country there are no protections against firing gays, denying gays housing and rentals, denying protection and benefits for marriage, partnership, family, child, and survivor.

            And of course you have proof that gays are denied all these solely on account of their being gay and the government aids and abbets those doing it. Please, do tell us instances.

            Ignorance is when you don’t know any better.
            Stupidity is when you do.
            Meanness, hateful bigotry is when you don’t even care, and think you are justified.
            Narcissism is when you don’t even recognize the equivalent humanity and godliness in others.

            So, you’ve enumerated all your character traits. But what was the point of all that?

          • ppp777

            ” Inclusiveness ” , that is communism , oh boy isn’t ironic – all them years fighting against communism now you are embracing it , as per usual atheists get things back to front and upside down , they accuse people of things that in reality they are guilty of ,
            The country was built on biblical principles and the free market and a strong awareness of natural laws , something people like you know very little about , and freedom of religious expression which is foundational in the first amendment , the government have no right whatsoever to get involved in moral issues like [ so called ] homosexual marriage , you have a set of rules in life based on natural laws hence you exclude things that are bad an embrace things that are good for the good of society as a whole , it is called [ discernment ] .

          • MarcAlcan

            Reprobate?
            That’s a loaded word.

            Or to the point….hence accurate.

          • MarcAlcan

            God compels her to discriminate between evil and good and to follow the good.

          • MarcAlcan

            double up

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @matt_weiler:disqus, please name ANY law that compels her to go against her beliefs.

            Thanks.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            So don’t obey state laws if you don’t want to, pay this fine, go out of business, and take up another career.

            There is nothing “religious” that is compelling her to be a public-facing florist in a regulated public marketplace where discrimination is prohibited and actionable (and hateful).

            She can go private, as a club, or do something else, maybe even work for another florist, and arrange a personal agreement on whether or not she ever has a public facing position in another enterprise.

            Her options are limitless.

            And, with anti discrimination laws, everyone’s options are equal and limitless, unencumbered by other people’s discrimination.

            Is the a great country or what?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            violate her covenant with the state.

            Covenant with the state? Since when?
            If the state should decide that it is her duty to kill those opposing gay marriage, then not to kill would be to violate her covenant with the state?

            Sorry, but in this regard, it is the state that is wrong because the state has become authoritarian in pushing the agenda of a tiny minority of its population. In the same vein as the Third Reich and Communist Russia. That though is not surprising since LGBTQ advocates are all leftists.

          • Peter Leh

            “If the state should decide that it is her duty to kill those opposing
            gay marriage, then not to kill would be to violate her covenant with the
            state?”

            i can always count on the hypothetical-ists to bring up fantasy instead of living in reality. 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            you haven’t answeredthe question.

          • Peter Leh

            no need to answer a hypothetical when present reality is for ALL to observe.

          • MarcAlcan

            Oh really. Such things are not hypothetical in totalitarian countries. And the America is not far behind being totalitarian because it is imposing secularism on everyone.
            You can’t answer because you know I am right.
            You can’t hide behind so called “reality” because we make reality.

          • Peter Leh

            “Such things are not hypothetical in totalitarian countries.”
            great. we can save it for another thread? Back to the real life subject at had that need to hypothetical. 😉

            “And the America is not far behind being totalitarian because it is imposing secularism on everyone”

            i have no problem with your opinion.

            “You can’t answer because you know I am right.”

            i can’t? or won;t? I love hypotheticals but I am not the one changing the subject. 😉

            Y”ou can’t hide behind so called “reality” because we make reality.”

            as a business owner i am living it, not hiding. 😉

            Just trying to educate those who don;t know business rules. 🙂 “let those who have ears….” 😉

          • MarcAlcan

            i have no problem with your opinion.

            Except that it isn’t just opinion.

            i can’t? or won;t? I love hypotheticals but I am not the one changing the subject. 😉

            That you think it is a change in subject just shows that you are incapable of following the discussion.

            Just trying to educate those who don;t know business rules. 🙂 “let those who have ears….” 😉

            Aah, that is precisely it. It is not just a matter of business rules.
            Indeed let those who have ears. Where’s yours? Or is it congenital.

          • MarcAlcan

            great. we can save it for another thread?

            Why? If it is not hypothetical then it is up for inclusion.

          • Peter Leh

            off topic.

          • MarcAlcan

            It isn’t.

            You can’t hide behind “hypothetical” and then when it is shown to be not hypothetical claim it is off topic.

          • Peter Leh

            off topic.

            stick to the subject. ( you don;t have to, of course. but i will) 🙂

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Nobody is imposing secularism on anyone, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            We-the-people through our self-governance demand no imposition of religion, any religion, yours or mine, on anyone, especially through the agency of our own government.

            And still you and I and everyone are free to believe and practice on ourselves any religion, any religious practice we prefer.

            And you have yet to show any religions belief or practice that has been prohibited or inflicted in this case.

            But if you can find one, do tell …

            … waiting … ( crickets ) …
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            And still you and I and everyone are free to believe and practice on ourselves any religion, any religious practice we prefer.

            And yet here you are opposing someone practicing hers.
            Hypocrite!

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          … no, it’s inappropriate expression of your personal religion that has absolutely nothing to do wit ha free public marketplace open to all comers, @matt_weiler:disqus.

          It’s been how may year since “Your kind not welcome here” was legal, and you want it back … because …?
          .

          • Matt Weiler

            equating homesexuality to something as akin to the color of your skin or race is false. Actually sexual orientation is not concrete and has been shown in many studies that ppls ‘orientation ‘ can change over time. I believe in Gods view in that homosexual desires is a perversion and actiing upon it is an abomination to him. There is actually NO scientific evidence that would show homesexual preference in the same level as race or skin color which is God given. People ‘discriminate ‘ everday between what they think is right and wrong. Supporting a gay wedding is an affront to Gods laws and morals regardless of modern cultural sentiment.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The Constitution does not arbitrarily dole out equal or unequal protection because of someone’s traits being in-born, acquired, or a choice.

            For instance, being Jewish can be in-born, acquired, or a choice.

            Are you suggesting that we should permit discrimination on someone’s religion because, after all, hey, it’s just a choice (and believe me, some religions are abominable!)?
            __________

            A citizen is a citizen is a citizen is a citizen.

            You’ve yet to suggest why you have any superior rights to assess and take action on judging others as a business in the licensed and regulated public marketplace.

            It can’t be sin — this florist has not provided any record of inspecting the lifestyle of any other clients, say, adulterers, for instance.

            Just hateful bigotry?

            That’s not a legal excuse.

            And certainly not a religious one.
            __________

            “People” discriminate all the time.

            But “businesses” are prohibited from discriminating because they are here at the license and whim of we-the-people.

            ALL of we-the-people.

            Equally.
            .

          • Matt Weiler

            technically your right, businesses cannot discriminate under the constitution unlike individuals. Businesses can refuse service to anyone if they so choose but just can’t be due to religion, race, sexuality. However, most Christians who run businesses have no problem serving homosexuals or any other person for that matter. I think for some the thought that a business that directly supports or promotes on event such as a ‘gay wedding’ feel it is as a sin because they feel they are in some way helping with either with a venue or flowers. Legally she must serve them, there is no argument there, the question is… is it a sin for her to do so? by her supplying flowers to such an event, is that making her complicit in what she sees as a sinful choice?
            The florist in the story had many homosexual customers whom she happily served over the years, the problem for her was supplying flowers specifically for a gay wedding.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “Technically” I’m right?

            Is there another way to be right?
            __________

            Repeat:

            If she has a problem providing goods and services that might — MIGHT — be used in what she considers sin …

            … then she can decline to offer those goods and services to everyone, no discrimination.

            Simple, right?

            Everybody happy now?
            __________

            Also repeat:

            She’s a filthy liar considering that she never investigated any other clients to assess their sin level before providing goods and services …

            … so she’s guilty as sin, so to speak, for discriminating as a hateful bigot, not as a pious and loving religious person.

            Any self-proclaimed Christian that aligns with her is denigrating themselves with a bold faced hypocritical liar — proceed at your own risk and damnation.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            The Constitution does not arbitrarily dole out equal or unequal protection

            And yet there you are requiring special protection and special treatment.

            Since the SSA have never ever been denied any right given to straight people, then to demand a special right for themselves is special treatment.

            Sorry but you are not any more special than the rest of humanity. But true to form you have managed to bully the law into caving into to your demand.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus, please name the “special right” you speak of that you think gays want exclusively, denying that right to others?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Strange. Aren’t you supposed to be the one doing that because you are the one’s using the “rights argument”?
            So tell me, what right is denied to the homosexual?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            On topic, this is about her act of illegal discrimination, ding.
            __________

            You never answer follow up questions about your own posts, so, what’s the point, @MarcAlcan:discus?

            Try?

            You’re the one who wrote:

            “… And yet there you are requiring special protection and special treatment …”

            When I ask “… what “special protection and special treatment” …”

            … you change the subject.

            Not much of a dialog.

            More of a self-referencing pontificating lecture broadcast from you, like television where you can’t hear your audience.

            That’s okay, I’m responding more now for the Google-lead visotor than I expect you to be responsive.

            Thanks for the opportunity to explore some oppositional bigotry, though.
            .

        • Lynda Falls

          Yup

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          When your religious beliefs conflict with the demands of a public-facing business to not discriminate, get out of business.

          Or go out of business.

          Or change your religion to one of love and acceptance.

          Choices are wonderful opportunities.

          Not everyone understands how to make the most of opportunity, though.

          She should have provided the services equal to services she provided for other customer’s requests, made everyone happy, got paid, donated whatever to charity if she so desires, pay the rent, and move on to the next customer, and kept this dedicated, loving couple as customers, supporting her for the rest of her business life.

          What a dope she is.

          She apparently does not understand the speech of flowers exceeds the flowers of speech (thank you, George Harrison).
          .

          • MarcAlcan

            Or change your religion to one of love and acceptance.

            Yes, you should do that. Change your religion to one of love and acceptance.
            Can you give me an estimated time of when we can expect that from the homosexual mob?

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          No, it’s a bad business decision.

          Can you imagine a Quaker (religious pacifist) starting a gun store because they like target shooting competition?

          Then complaining when a customer asks to buy a gun, knowing the customer is a hunter.

          Then complaining when they go out of business because the state said they cannot discriminate — a gun sale is a gun sale is a gun sale?

          No analogy is perfect, but …

          This person runs a flower shop.

          And sells flowers.

          Flowers that their customers use for their customer’s own celebratory occasions.

          Funerals, births, weddings, anniversaries, decorations, dating, props for painting or theater, get well, new job.

          Maybe flowers for an adulterous affair.

          Or commiserating over surviving an abortion.

          Or maybe flowers for a new job as an abortion doctor.

          Suddenly, the florist refuses to sell flowers for one entire class of customer’s because the florist disapproves of the customer’s celebratory occasion.

          Ooops.

          If she didn’t want to sell flowers that her customer would use for their own celebratory occasions, why did she start a floral business?

          That is a bad business decision.

          So either give up and sell flowers to any and all customers equally, and let them decide their own reasons, and succeed as a business.

          Or get out of the customer service business because, after all, you really can’t hack it because you really don’t believe all citizens, all of your customers, really are equal under law.

          This is a bad business decision problem, self-created by someone who does not understand that you cannot inflict your own personal choices of your own religious beliefs and practices as discrimination against one class of customers in the general public.

          More importantly, why would you want to?
          .

      • ppp777

        Oh so she got prosecuted for an ” unwise ” business decision ? , think again .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          She voluntarily misbehaved, no one persecuted her.
          .

          • MarcAlcan

            She voluntarily misbehaved, no one persecuted her.

            Misbehaved? Naah!
            She was bullied and persecuted by the gay group.
            It is typical of you lot to bully and persecute. It’s part and parcel of this immersion in the depraved lifestyle.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh yes, @MarcAlcan:disqus, thanks for your new definition of the word “bully”:

            CUSTOMER WITH CASH IN HAND!

            Oh my, how mean of them!
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Oh yes, MarcAlcan, thanks for your new definition of the word “bully”:
            CUSTOMER WITH CASH IN HAND!
            Oh my, how mean of them!

            Peter, please stop this stupid posts.

            I am sure you can do better.
            Let me extend your analogy, the old man has cash in hand. This should make child pornography okay since they are paying for it.

            If you exercise the little grey cells more, you will realize that you also are capable of reason. Just give it one more try.

          • ppp777

            You mean she did not embrace your ideology .

        • Peter Leh

          no.

          she was cited for breaking the very covenant she agreed to.

          would happens to all of us.. ask any business owner

          • MarcAlcan

            she was cited for breaking the very covenant she agreed to.

            If it is her covenant with the state, then the state is in covenant with her.
            If covenant, both parties are accountable to each other.
            In this case, the state should be punished for breaking the covenant by introducing terms of covenant that she did not agree to.
            So in fact, it was the state who broke the covenant.

            So what do we do to punish the state? Ah yes, we can’t because the state is authoritarian.

          • Peter Leh

            yes. the covenant does cut both ways. When the laws change then both parties are able to reassess and make the proper changes.

            again.. she did not.

            so she was the one held accountable. 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            Well if she was a party to the covenant she has a say in it. So in refusing she is in fact having her say and holding the other party accountable for breaking the covenant..

          • Peter Leh

            “So since the state broke the covenant, what punishment should be meted out to the state for doing so?”

            the state keep its agreement with the business.

            “Well if she was a party to the covenant she has a say in it.”
            Very true. Either agree to it or change the registration which satisfies BOTH the state AND the business owner

            “So in refusing she is in fact having her say and holding the other party accountable for breaking the covenant..”

            No. not at all. How can the one breaking the agreement be the one holding the one who did not break it accountable?

          • MarcAlcan

            the state kept its agreement with the business.

            Are you really that hard pressed to keep up even with your own logic?

            You were saying that the covenant was between the florist and the state. So since the state broke its covenant with the florist, what punishment shall we mete out against the state.

            Very true. Either agree to it or change the registration which satisfies BOTH the state AND the business owner, which is her choice.

            But if it is a covenant that both has to agree. The florist refuses to change the terms because that is what she agreed to. Now you are saying that the state being so much bigger has the right to bully her to agree to the changed terms.

            That’s like the big corporation changing the terms on the poor hapless employee only because it has the muscle and power to do so.

            No. not at all. How can the one breaking the agreement be the one holding the one who did not break the agreement accountable?

            But it’s the state that broke the covenant by coming out with the new rules which she never agreed to.

            As you can see, your use of covenant language is stupid.

          • Peter Leh

            “But it’s the state that broke the covenant by coming out with the new rules which she never agreed to.”

            ok i see you are a saying.

            Now this is BUS 101, Marc. Rudimentary education for the beginning business owner.

            the both parties have the right to change or update their status and regulatory characteristics. this is stated up front. The business can change their business status, policy, registration etc… the state can update, clarify, add or subtract regulatory responsibilities to the citizens, business institutions etc… hence the “dance” ( as i say) between the two parties.

            so the state and the business owner are both totally and legally within their rights to fluidity.

            therefore the state gave the businesses a “heads up” that sexual orientation is now added to “protected groups” and falls under the public accommodation laws and advises the business to react and accommodated their business policy accordingly. At this point is now up to the business owner to comply, however they wish and choose.

            Arlene’s Flower’s was cited to be in violation of of state regulations according to the covenant she herself made with the state and had every opportunity to change business policy and registration, if needed, to comply. This compliance is totally at the descretion of the business owner and will be enforced based accordingly hereafter.

            so while the laws and regulation did change, as you say, this is in no way breaking the covenant. By registering your business with the state and the state allowing a business a license certifying the entity may conduct business in the state per regulations is agreed upon by both parties (IE a contract/ covenant)

            again BUS 101.

            now if you are just wanting to B and Moan about the law, feel free. I am just saying what IS with no opinion of my own. 🙂

          • ppp777

            Like was said she did not sign up to promote that demonic lifestyle .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Lots of ‘lifestyles’ are legal, @ppp777:disqus.

            None are the business of any business.

            Serve everyone, or go private.
            .

          • ppp777

            It is a private business , if you had your way you would rid Christians of the face of the earth , your legalistic attitude is just a joke , remember not so long ago blacks and whites could not mix together , it was against the ” law ” .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @ppp777:disqus, you’re thinking of a privately ‘owned‘ business versus, what, a publicly owned business via stock or government?

            But, no, she is a PUBLIC business, subject to all of we-the-people’s secular self-governance’s rules, regulations, laws, including non-discrimination.

            Oh yes, and obeying the Constitution, too.
            __________

            You have no evidence or testimony that the customer is not Christian or wants to rid the world of Christians.
            __________

            Pause for a moment and think about what is the case here, and what you are saying about it:

            Customer asks for advertised services, and gets turned away by the seller.

            You blame the customer for not wanting to get along together.

            Seriously?

            When it was the seller who refused to get along?

            Do you people just believe anything that comes into your head, regardless of facts?

            Well then, I’m definitely going to vote for the Obamas again for president in 2016 in spite of them being gay and lesbian transgendered non-US-citizen Kenyan socialist communist fascist devil-worshiping voodoo Muslims who hate America and hate white people and hate guns — do you believe that, too?

            Get the tin foil, I’ll make you a hat, and clear your mind of interference.
            .

          • Peter Leh

            if so, then it is the business’s responsibility to change business policy to protect her convictions AND satisfy the state requirement the business agreed to.

            there are many options here. Can you name a few? Don;t say it can’t be done when others are doing it. 🙂

          • ppp777

            In reality there are no options , Obama has made sure that busineses has to pander to homosexuals and their lifestyles , and to make sure they promote their political agenda , so cut out the legalist remarks .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Wow, don’t hide your agenda, @ppp777:disqus, or your racist, white supremacist hateful bigotry!

            Obama wasn’t even born when the 14th Amendment was first used to prosecute discrimination.

            What are you thinking?

            Oh please, if only for entertainment value, draw a line, no matter how circuitous, from this florist to Obama.

            … waiting … ( crickets ) …
            .

          • ppp777

            ” My racist white supremacist hateful bigotry ” , well where would I start responding to such left wing rhetoric , maybe it should be treated with the contempt it deserves , the great biblical teacher Chuck Missler once said ” that America was given an I Q test , it was called the 2008 elections and they failed miserably ” man was he bang on , and it sounds very much you were one of these , he was sold to you by the media , nothing at all is known about his past , the truth is he should not be there in the first place , and what does his birth got to do with any amendment , the fact is he is implementing it for the wrong reasons , discrimination is part and parcel with life itself , your very existence depends on it , start using a little common sense and throw your ideology out of the window .

          • Peter Leh

            i have listed many options.

          • ppp777

            Yeah like closing your business down and start collecting benefits .

          • Peter Leh

            that is an option as well, although i did not list quitting.

          • ppp777

            At last we are getting to the truth .

          • Peter Leh

            🙂

            like the old dwight yoakam song ” i tell the truth, ‘cept when i lie”

          • Peter Leh

            BTW i am not engaging in politics.

      • MarcAlcan

        No. It is religious persecution.

        • Peter Leh

          there is no religious persecution in this case. no mention of religious in the citation.

          ISIS is killing based on religious. that, my friend, is religious persecution.

          She was cited for discrimination: breaking the covenant she… herself… agreed to.

          but we are soooo martyred in america. 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            It is religious persecution because she is being persecuted for sticking to her beliefs.
            Sarcasm does not excuse your sloppy and dumb arguments.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus, please share your secret of what you use to excuse your sloppy and dumb arguments.

            Thanks in advance for the wisdom sure to follow …
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          @MarcAlcan:disqus, the citation could be for ANY person behaving the way she did regardless of their belief, regardless of their “religion”.

          She was not “persecuted”, you got that wrong.

          And not for her “religion”, you got that wrong.

          I was going to write, “I’m sorry you feel bad”, but then I thought of the suffering you and your fellow hateful bigots inflict on others, and I cannot bring myself to feel sorry for any suffering you will experience over your behavior.

          .

    • RandomUserName13

      Are you talking about gay people or the poor persecuted Christians that do all those things to gay people. Also known as false Christians.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        … ad which are you talking about and assigning the “false Christian” moniker to, @RandomUserName13:disqus?
        .

        • RandomUserName13

          Unfortunately, these days it seems like the majority that comment on these things. It has become far removed and redefined by whatever you want to call them false Christians, pseudoChristians, a-holes. Not that there is not any true Christians out there I know a few. But, if you hate, discriminate or anything along those lines you clearly are not. This lady is not. She’s most likely a hypocrite. To refuse service to someone because their gay. Yet, how many 2nd or 3rd marriages did she happily assist with. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Love thy neighbor. Throw the 1st stone. We all sin. Then close shop and serve no one with your ignorance. I agree I personally would never buy from there and would make sure as many as I could would not.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thanks for clarifying.

            Yes, we could get into an extended

            “… No true Christian would …”

            … debate.

            But then, no true Christian would debate what is a true Christian.

            😉

            .

          • RandomUserName13

            I guess I should clarify further To which I thought was obvious. I’m not Christian. I would call myself an eclectic spiritual philosopher. Meaning I have studied many different philosophies To have an understanding of the big picture and not be limited to dogma. I believe once philosophy becomes religion it becomes corrupted by man. Jesus had a great philosophy, a truly enlightened individual. Then man came. So being in my position I can more easily see the hypocrisy of religion or even the atheist who become lost. Who use their belief to attack others Who believe different. Use their religion and or book as a weapon, a shield, an excuse for non-human behavior.
            I also disagree a true Christian as you attempted to use against me, should most definitely step up and open their mouths and speak out against all these who pervert everything they believe, these pseudoChristians who freely call themselves Christian yet show the opposite set of values. Remaining quiet let’s things like WBC become the face of Christianity. True Christians will be endangered as you have all these people claiming and changing everything it means. Media becomes brainwashing miseducating tools easily manipulating the masses. You have fox news leading the way. With their cries ofthe war on Christianity while they complain about the poor, the mooches and try to build a needle so large they can pass a camel through the eye. It is an oxymoron to believe you can be a tea party Christian when the values are opposite. They say the Devils greatest trick is making people believe he doesn’t exist. I think it is posing as a Christian with opposite values, changing the core beliefs. Hell it would make sense to me the devil wrote the Bible for man to interpret it to allow their own bias as God sits waiting for people to figure out.

            But, hey, we all believe what we will. As long as it makes you a good human I don’t care. It’s when you are bad and then think calling yourself something redeems you. Then I have issue. Good luck. All paths lead to the same destination… eventually. It just takes some more times to learn.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I have no compulsion to “should” on anyone.

            Especially telling ‘true Christians” that they must speak out.

            Against whom?

            Other “true Christians”?

            Self-defined “true Christians” are already speaking out, as we can witness the inanities in this thread, all from true believers.
            __________

            Your path seems exciting — more power to you.
            __________

            I also don’t care what anyone believes.

            I only care how they behave.
            __________

            The “needle”, by the way, was the nickname for the short gate to the town where walkers were fine, but those on camels had to dismount and walk through the dirty street to pass through — it was never a sewing needle.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            But, if you hate, discriminate or anything along those lines you clearly are not. This lady is not.

            Totally dumb.
            The Christian is the one who stands up for the truth of Christ.
            There is rightful discrimination when we discriminate against what is evil and what is good.
            Rightful discrimination is good. She was not protesting against the gay men (she would have sold them any other cake). And these gay men can buy cakes from other gay friendly bakeries and yet they chose instead to persecute this women.
            Just goes to show the kind of evil there really was in their heart.

          • RandomUserName13

            Zero persecution you can stop with that simple silliness. Quit trying to make things, where there is nothing. You obviously did not read everything written. Or just chose to skip over the parts that clearly prove my point about hypocrisy and picking and choosing sins. You cannot focus on one and overlook another. That simple. Some times many people think they are good when they do evil deeds.

          • MarcAlcan

            Zero persecution you can stop with that simple silliness.

            Yes, persecution. So you can stop with your bankrupt perspective.

            Quit trying to make things, where there is nothing.

            Well duh. Obviously there is something or she would not be persecuted for standing up for her Christian belief.

            Or just chose to skip over the parts that clearly prove my point about hypocrisy and picking and choosing sins

            Since there is no picking or choosing going on then this comment of yours is just plain dumb or ignorant.

            But since you don’t get it I will explain.
            Homosexual activity is a sin. Period. Gay marriage entrenches this sin.

            To refuse service to someone because their gay.

            Goodness. Just shows how ignorant you are of this issue.
            Did you not read the part where it said: Stutzman had been approached by one of her faithful customers
            Obviously you started banging on your keyboard without trying to acquaint yourself with the facts.

            Hate the sin, not the sinner.

            Which is precisely what she is doing. Clearly you need to keep abreast with what is happening here.

          • RandomUserName13

            You have to be a troll. I just can’t wrap my head around that someone can be that dumb And be able to use a computer or turn one on for that matter. Matthew 7: 1-5 can look it up online since you have no clue.

          • MarcAlcan

            Well I can’t wrap my head around your terribly dumb comments.
            For one thing, what makes you think Matt 7:1-5 even shores up your position?
            Surely you are not that stupid to think that is blanket rule against judging. But perhaps you are.

          • RandomUserName13

            Thank You! You just proved my case not only how truly ignorant and stupid you are but, how far removed pseudoChristians. You go and reinterpret it you all want doesn’t mean Jack. It’s not absolute. I mean SImon Cowell judges singers and stuff all the time.

            And you know the bible meant like other people judging Christians. Christians can totally judge and be complete hypocrites and really just interpret the bible to fit all their bias while be perfection in their sin…which doesn’t count. We can sin all we want as long as it is against people who think different than me. Yup, thank you for proving my point, “Good Christian”

            You seriously are not embarrassed at all? That’s all right sane people that are not wasting time reading this will understand. Now you are just getting hilarious in your outrageous comments. People like you prove that the movie Idiocrisy was telling the future. Keep ’em coming, your giving me a good laugh now. So at least you have some purpose on this planet.

          • MarcAlcan

            Well based on this post, it is you who are quite ignorant. You take a verse or two and think that that is it.

            Read the entire the Bible and then see whether your interpretation of that passage is correct.

            Here’s a hint for you: Christian moral teaching cannot be boiled down to Matt 7:1-5.

            So yes, do educate yourself on the faith so that you will know the truth.

            If you can’t be bothered I can give you more verses if you like. Short ones as well as you seem incapable of wrapping your head around longer ones.

            People like you prove that the movie Idiocrisy was telling the future

            People like you are the reason so many are ignorant of what Christianity is all about.

          • RandomUserName13

            Lol again you amuse me so little troll. I have studied and read the Bible. My brother is a pastor. The one thing I also have is a greater understanding of it. And it is people like you who made people fear what Christianity has become and run from it. But, hey, let me know how that afterlife turns out for you, genius.

          • MarcAlcan

            . I have studied and read the Bible

            There’s very little evidence of it in your post. So I take it that you studied but learned nothing? That’s even sadder than if you had not studied at all.

            My brother is a pastor.

            Which matters exactly how? That would be like saying my brother is Elvis so when I tell you I can see you have to believe me. Dumb comment as usual.

            And it is people like you who made people fear what Christianity has become and run from it.

            Not at all. Christianity is Christianity. You give them false Christianity. You know like a candy. So now they don’t want to eat real food because they thought Christianity is a lollie. Maybe it is hightime you actually practiced and preached true Christianity.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus wrote:

            “…Christianity is Christianity …”

            … then immediately:

            “… You give … false Christianity …”

            You can’t have it both ways.

            My personal experience is that no two people, let alone two Christians, are the same.

            So speak for yourself.

            And that is for one person only.

            No matter.

            I only listen to your writing as of you speak for yourself and yourself alone regardless of your attempt at sweeping generalizations of others.

            You can only speak for yourself.

            That you believe that you can speak for anyone else is an indicator as to why your posts are so confused, inaccurate, misleading, untrue, and do not align with other people’s experiences of themselves.

            But you go ahead and write whatever you want to write, no one can stop you let alone influence you.

            We’ll keep reading and filtering out the noise to see if there’s anything useful hidden in your posts.

            It could happen — I’m a perennial optimist.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            So speak for yourself.
            And that is for one person only.

            Sorry but no go.

            That is the point about Christianity, you can’t make it into your own because there is only one Christ. You are either faithful to Him or you mangle His words to suit you.

            You can’t have it both ways.

            That you believe that you can speak for anyone else is an indicator as to why your posts are so confused, inaccurate, misleading, untrue

            Obviously you don’t even see the stupidity in that part of your post. There are no different ways, there is only one way. You can manufacture your own, or RandomUser can manufacture his but that aint gonna cut it because at the end of the day you have to go by the Bible and by His Church.

            We’ll keep reading and filtering out the noise to see if there’s anything useful hidden in your posts.

            Meaning my replies to you which you are afraid to address because they are so to the point? Yes, afraid is the word. When you are confronted with the truth, it just is so hard to come back with a rebuttal isn’t it?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus,

            There is no truth outside of one’s own personal belief and behavior, especially not coming from or filtered through you for anybody but yourself.

            From you, from where I’m experiencing you, you offer only your personal, whimsical interpretation, conclusion, whim, confusion, mangled language (your speciality).

            Why?

            I’m guessing because you assume you speak for anyone but yourself, as if they needn’t speak for themselves, “you’ve got it for them”.

            I believe you even speak for yourself poorly, with a sorry lack of self awareness, without seeking celebration of what is unique about you.

            Instead, you mould yourself into a rubber stamp of disingenuity as if you yourself are worthless unless you take on the mantle of someone else’s greatness.

            Too bad.

            There’s probably a child of your God inside you somewhere, crushed to death by now.
            __________

            Oh please tell us how the Bible can only be read one way, and yet, those of us sitting right next to you, and across the world and across time, all have different experiences of the few thousand different editions?

            And how can it be that you and you alone are the right way, and others are not?

            Thank you for suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you will not go to your heaven.

            On that I do depend.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            There is no truth outside of one’s own personal belief and behaviour

            Oh really? So if I happen to believe that it is a good thing to bash homosexuals to death and I happen to have the power to do so, that is okay by you that that is my truth.

            I mean, as far as Hitler and Stalin and all those dictators are concerned, they have their truth. And they have the power to impose those truth.

            So as far as you are concerned, they must be right per your paradigm of relativism. It really is only a matter of who has the power because there is nothing true objectively.

            From you, from where I’m experiencing you, you offer only your personal, whimsical interpretation, conclusion, whim, confusion, mangled language (your speciality).

            Naah. And you know it true. You know that I don’t speak for my self. I speak for what Christ taught. I speak what the Church has always believed. In fact, it is not only the Church who has always believe that homosexuality is a perversion but all peoples.

            I believe you even speak for yourself poorly, with a sorry lack of self awareness

            Pray tell what has self-awareness got to do with our discussion?

            You see, this is your problem – you make it all personal. As if making it personal somehow makes homosexual activity suddenly right.

            And how can it be that you and you alone are the right way, and others are not?

            Well, helloo. I am not the only one who is right. There’s the Church for one thing. There’s the saints. Above all there’s God.

            Thank you for suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you will not go to your heaven.

            Okay, either you like telling lies or you don’t read all that well because I never said such a thing.
            I’ll be kinder and say you just don’t read all that well.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus If you think that your truth extends to someone else, then it’s not your truth.

            Duh.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            If you think that your truth extends to someone else, then it’s not your truth. Duh.

            No Peter. Duh. You’re too dumb that you think that all truths are personal. Truth is neither yours nor mine. It simply is. You either conform to it or go against. No you may enjoy going against it and you label that defiance of truth as “your truth” but that ain’t truth. That’s a lie – which interestingly enough is very personal to you.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Okay, @MarcAlcan:disqus — do you wanna toss a coin to decide if you accept me as the arbiter of external truth, or if I accept you as arbiter of external truth?

            I know.

            Why don’t you decide for you, and I decide for me?

            And let’s call ourselves free American citizens.

            And love, only love.

            And never never never never discriminate.

            Deal?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            do you wanna toss a coin to decide if you accept me as the arbiter of external truth, or if I accept you as arbiter of external truth?

            Sigh, you really have no capacity for comprehension do you?
            Neither of us are the arbiters of truth. You really must be living in lala land.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus, or somebody wrote,

            “… You know that I don’t speak for my self …”

            Peter Blaise responds:

            (a) Then shut up.

            (b) You can ONLY speak for yourself.

            No matter how hard you try.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            a) Then shut up.

            When you do.

            You can ONLY speak for yourself.

            No, I can speak what the Church teaches.

            No matter how hard you try.

            I was even trying.

            But seriously, why do you want to remain mired in misery and filth when freedom is to be had for free?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus — I know I can speak more authoritatively for the Roman Catholic Church of Jesus through his disciples Peter and Mary than do you or anyone else.

            Listening?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            MarcAlcan — I know I can speak more authoritatively for the Roman Catholic Church of Jesus through his disciples Peter and Mary than do you or anyone else.

            Oh really? Since you’ve been spewing the lies of the evil one here there and everywhere, that would be highly doubtful. No, not just doubtful. One hundred percent unlikely.
            But no doubt you can speak well for the evil one. You’ve been doing an excellent job of that.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus asked,

            “… what has self-awareness got to do with our discussion? …?

            Peter Blaise responds:

            .

            .

            .

            .

            No seriously.

            I’m speechless.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            No seriously, you’re point about self-awareness has got nothing to do with this thread.
            But you think it does because you are logically challenged.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh, @MarcAlcan:disqus, because this thread is about US law and the behavior of individuals towards each other in society.

            I can’t imagine how self-awareness has anything to do with that.

            I’m sure everyone can go to court and never testify about their own experience.

            Sounds obedient Christian to me.

            Sarcasm off.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            And precisely what has self-awareness got to do with US law? Or don’t you even know which post of mind you are replying to?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus wrote,

            “… As if making it personal somehow makes homosexual activity suddenly right …”

            No, it’s NOT a question of right and wrong.

            It’s a question of any-of-your-business, or not.

            Anyone’s sexuality is your business ONLY if it’s YOUR sexuality.

            Any maybe your partner’s.

            Otherwise, why are you putting your nose in someone else’s pants?

            And why are you asking the government to do it for you?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            No, it’s NOT a question of right and wrong.
            It’s a question of any-of-your-business, or not.

            Of course it is our business because right and wrong is always our business. Otherwise, all sorts of evil can be passed off as not being anyone’s business.

            Anyone’s sexuality is your business ONLY if it’s YOUR sexuality.

            Did I say otherwise? It is the exercise of this so called sexuality that becomes our business. Otherwise we should leave paedophiles and zoophiles alone.

            Otherwise, why are you putting your nose in someone else’s pants?

            You’re the one who did that.

            And why are you asking the government to do it for you?

            You’re the one who did that, too.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            What, @MarcAlcan:disqus, are you a bratty child on the playground at recess going “nya nya nya”?!?

            You’ve yet to identify why anyone, especially the government, should care about or act on your concerns.
            __________

            Society’s dealing with people who rape children or animals has nothing to do with sexuality, but everything to do with violating the rights of children and animals who cannot legally enter into an equivalently considered negotiated contract.

            It’s a violence thing, not a sexuality thing.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Instead, you mould yourself into a rubber stamp of disingenuity as if you yourself are worthless unless you take on the mantle of someone else’s greatness.

            Huh? Rubber stamp who? Who’s greatness? If you are referring to the Catholic Church – well thank you for thinking that she is great. She is.

            There’s probably a child of your God inside you somewhere, crushed to death by now.

            You mean the same way you’ve slowly killed the child of God in you by feeding him with all your lies? That’s what you do to your conscience isn’t it? Let’s face, even you know that homosexuality is disordered. There just is not escaping that FACT. You can muzzle that voice of God that says so, you can drown it with hundreds of rationalizations but it remains. And it’s always knocking, wanting to be let in. But you like keeping it quiet. You crush it forcefully hoping that you will not hear a whimper for it but on it goes.

            Why? Why go to all that trouble and remaining mired in that filth and misery when joy beckons? Why remain there when others like you have found the way out? There is no need to remain enslaved. Freedom can be had. And it’s free.

          • RandomUserName13

            Yup you again prove my point to sadly funny levels of your extreme ignorance. But, My Amusement can only last so long when anti-logic and the whole I have a small penis but, I will constantly talk about how big it is so no one notices technique . I expose false christianity like yours for what it is and who they are. Why would I practice Christianity or preach it? I have stated several times I am not. I just understand more than they/you.

            So I understand what this is for you. A need to validate yourself with your personal interpretation of some book written by man for man and edited more than any other book in existence. You all worship this book. Which if you knew the actual history of the book itself. But, your to busy shaping it to make yourself a christian (In name only) Jesus could come down and explain it to you and you would argue your point with them.

            I have wasted enough time with you. A brick wall has more understanding.

            So here you go. Have your last word. I know that’s what you need. Like I said good luck with things. Probably could use it.

          • MarcAlcan

            With all that yadda,, yadda, do you think you are able to come up with a reasoned rebuttal or is yadda yadda all you are capable of?
            If that is all you are capable of, that is perfectly understandable.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Which of the thousands of Bibles do you like, @MarcAlcan:disqus?

            Maybe the problem is that we each like different Bibles.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            There’s only one. With different translations. Some more faithful, others mangled. No doubt the gays have come out with a deformed version in conformity with their deformed sexuality.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh ye of little faith, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            I’ll let you come back after comparing the Bible in your hand to the Bible in the hand of a married gay minister in a gay affirming Christian denomination.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            You mean the mangled version the gay mob came up with?
            Yes, you people know only destruction. The Bible was just the latest one in your path.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus wrote:

            “… you think Matt 7:1-5 … is blanket rule against judging …”

            … then immediately:

            “… that means we have to do away with the courts because the judges there do make judgments …”

            Christianity, in fact all religion, is personal, and has nothing to do with the courts, or anyone else but the self, private, personal, quiet.

            Thank you for revealing why you are so wrong:

            you think your own personal interpretations and choices of your own personal Christianity has anything to do with anyone else.

            Got it.
            __________

            It doesn’t, by the way.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Christianity, in fact all religion, is personal, and has nothing to do with the courts

            I said to RandomUser it was a dumb comment and your follow up is the same.

            If you are going to interpret Matt 7:1-5 as a blanket rule against passing judgment, then that means the courts are violating that rule. So if you are going to throw that verse around, then maybe you should object to our legal system as well. Is that plain enough, or should I explain it further.

            you think your own personal interpretations and choices of your own personal Christianity has anything to do with anyone else.
            Got it.

            Except that it is not my personal Christianity but simply Christianity. Christianity that is faithful to Scripture and Magisterium. That is the only Christianity to speak of.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The courts are neither religious nor personal.

            Duh.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            The courts are neither religious nor personal.

            Duh.

            Well duh, I did not say they were.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Wow, @MarcAlcan:disqus — you actually came to a grinding halt.

            Thank you — there’s hope after all!
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Huh?
            Are you referring to my not replying to you?
            I am know you think that you are the centre of the universe that I must attend to your every word but I have to disabuse you of that too.
            I give you my spare time when I feel like it.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            We other Christians disagree with you.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            He’s just fervent and single minded.

            I suppose we look that way to him.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            We disagree, @MarcAlcan:disqus — I believe the Christian is the one who loves above all.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            We disagree, MarcAlcan — I believe the Christian is the one who loves above all.

            This time I completely and totally agree with your statement.

            But what is love and what does it mean to love?
            Firstly, Christian love the Lord. First and foremost God is it for the Christian.

            Secondly, the Christian loves his neighbour and that includes calling others to follow the Lord and not showing others that the we are all called to holiness, and repentance of sin because Christ came to save us from sin.

            Now, how does the actively gay go against that?
            Firstly, their disordered desires have become their god. In short they have traded God for their lusts.

            Secondly, they have trade the truth for the lie (like St Paul said) calling their vice a virtue.
            Having been so corrupted making their lie into a truth, there no longer is need for repentance. Ergo, how can such a one be a Christian?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus — love doesn’t smell like hateful bigotry.

            Hateful bigotry smells like hateful bigotry.

            But, hey, if you love the smell of hateful bigotry, have at it.

            No one’s stopping you.

            I don’t care what you believe … about others.

            I only care how you behave … toward others.

            Ain’t gonna let ya get away with discrimination.

            I don’t care how you sin for yourself.

            I don’t care how you spin for yourself.

            You discriminate, try to denigrate anyone into second class citizenship, then back at ya: off with your business license, redistribute your property to your victim, and separate you from society if you persist.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            love doesn’t smell like hateful bigotry.

            It only smells like hateful bigotry to those whose noses are blocked with slime.

            Hateful bigotry smells like hateful bigotry.

            And you know it because you do it?

            But, hey, if you love the smell of hateful bigotry, have at it. No one’s stopping you.

            If I do, I would not have been trying my hardest to stop you from spreading it.

            Ain’t gonna let ya get away with discrimination.

            Only the stupid think it is discrimination.

            You discriminate, try to denigrate anyone into second class citizenship

            No Peter, you do that yourself. You could be in a better position but you prefer to wallow in slime. And fight with all your might those who want to pull you out of it.

    • Peter Leh

      unfortunately their is no “false” kinds of “evil” said against her because of jesus. she is neither a prophet or being persecuted.

      she received poor legal advice and had bad business policy.

      • ppp777

        What did you expect the judge to say , you have lost this case becauase of your faith in Christs teachings ? , stop playing with words this woman was clearly persecuted

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Oh, yes, this florist was clearly persecuted

          — by a regular, loyal customer who tried to give her a whole lot of money for her publicly advertised advertised goods and services.
          .

          • ppp777

            What are you babbling on about , everyone has a right to refuse on moral grounds , advertising is not an absolute , if the customer did not like it there are plenty of reprobates like you that would take money for any reason

          • RandomUserName13

            pp, actually, moral grounds is obviously not an absolute as we see everyday with everyone including Christians. Sadly advertising is more absolute of the 2. If you get 20% off, you get 20% off. Where as I refuse to serve a gay person based on my belief to, oh? well congrats on your 3rd marriage here’s a cake. You want to take the moral route and not serve a gay person then you should only serve 1st marriages, correct? See how long you stay in business. I agree with what Peter said here. Persecuted? Give me a break. I constantly hear that bs from the pseudoChristians sects. We’re victims though we are usually victimizing.

          • MarcAlcan

            Then please explain why Jewish and Islamic Butchers can get away with not selling pork?

          • RandomUserName13

            What? How does that have anything remotely to do with this?? That makes absolutely no sense. So by your logic this lady should have to sell marijuana plants because, she has a flower shop. Or an apple vender not selling oranges. A person can choose what they sell, not who they sell it to because of personal bias.

          • MarcAlcan

            No dummy. Marijuana plants are illegal. Pork is not. So again, how come we don’t demand of Muslims and Jews that they sell pork?

          • RandomUserName13

            I need no rebuttal to that what so ever. You obviously would not be able to understand. Btw though it is not illegal everywhere. Besides the point. Let us see if I can simplify it more. So you feel someone should have to sell something they don’t want to. So you think vegan restaurants should serve steak. Or a Christian bookstore should sell necronomicon. Which again I say you can not be forced to sell something In your store. Completely different thing here.

          • MarcAlcan

            I need no rebuttal to that what so ever.

            LOL because there isn’t any. Because you’d be hard pressed to come up with one.

            So you feel someone should have to sell something they don’t want to

            You see. This is exactly my point about you being comprehension challenged – that you even have to ask that. Pray tell where exactly I said that?
            Now perhaps you get why I said your arguments are dumb.

          • RandomUserName13

            So again, how come we don’t demand of Muslims and Jews that they sell pork? You keep saying it. I try to explain how America and consumerism works. But, I might as well be trying to teach algebra to a hamster as i sits there with a blank stare only thinking, “I’m pooping!”

            I mean seriously, you’re so far off, you actually think you are winning this debate. You are either extremely stupid and/or under or over medicated.

          • MarcAlcan

            So again, how come we don’t demand of Muslims and Jews that they sell pork? You keep saying it. I try to explain how America and consumerism works

            And I completely agree with you. As you can see, the florists have sold wedding bouquets to real weddings. But “faux wedding” bouquets she does not trade in. Other florists do. And these gay men could have gone to one of those who sell faux wedding flowers. If these gay men have just ordered say 200 loose flowers and did not order “faux wedding” flower arrangements then yes.
            She is basically saying there is no such thing as “gay marriage” so I can’t supply wedding bouquets for something that does not exist.

          • RandomUserName13

            One crucial thing Christianity does not rule the world, America, or anywhere really besides the person themselves. If she wants to discriminate then don’t open a business.

          • MarcAlcan

            One crucial thing Christianity does not rule the world, America, or anywhere really besides the person themselves.

            And one crucial thing. Marriage has always been between man and woman whether you hail from Timbuktu or Paris, from Sudan or China. It is universal.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus wrote:

            “… one crucial thing. Marriage has always been between man and woman …”

            And always MUST extend into the future, right?

            One crucial thing — people of color have always been subordinate to whites.

            Another crucial thing — women have always been subordinate to men.

            Another crucial thing — progress requires growth.

            Grow or die.

            If you insist on not growing … would you please take your form of Christianity with you when you go?

            Thanks.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            And always MUST extend into the future, right?

            Yes, when something is true and good. Why should we change for something evil and a lie?

            One crucial thing — people of color have always been subordinate to whites.

            By nature or social construct? Is there a reason for subordination or is it more a case of because the whites tended to have the power rather than by any natural right?

            Another crucial thing — women have always been subordinate to men.

            By nature or social construct? Is there a reason for or is it because males have generally been stronger physically while women have been stronger emotionally?

            Another crucial thing — progress requires growth. Grow or die.

            Indeed. But if the one growing is a cancer? Is that progress? Or disease?

            If you insist on not growing … would you please take your form of Christianity with you when you go?

            But I insist on growing. And I insist that you grow with me. But you like remaining curved in. You want to remain in your misery. Others have found the way out you know.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thanks for your reiteration of your preferences for yourself, @MarcAlcan:disqus.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            You mean my preferences for the true, the good and the beautiful?
            Since your preferences are opposite to mine, what does that say of your preferences?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, @MarcAlcan:disqus, your preferences are for yourself only.

            You cannot have preferences for anyone else.

            And there is no external “true, good, beautiful” on their own.

            Obviously.

            You and I have had no opportunity to compare our preferences for ourselves, so your presumptions about mine are baseless — I have never shared them.

            But then, my preferences for myself are no one else’s business, so they’re not up for discussion anyway.

            You seem to want to talk about yours as if they matter to anyone else.

            They do not.

            Other than to participate with equivalent consideration for each other’s rights to autonomy in a society that protects everyone’s own personal preferences for themselves.

            Yet I still do not care what those preferences are.

            For anyone.

            Not for you.

            Not for me.

            Not for gays.

            Not for straights.

            I just don’t care.

            They all deserve equivalent consideration and freedom to their own life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

            Without having to explain anything to me, to my satisfaction, ever.

            Ever.

            . E . v . e . r .

            I will fight for your right to express your preferences for your life for yourself regardless.

            Quid pro quo, or STFU — the choice is yours.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            No, MarcAlcan, your preferences are for yourself only.

            And pray tell where exactly I said that my preferences should be your preferences? Is your reading and comprehension becoming worse than it already is? Maybe you ought to take a breather.

            And there is no external “true, good, beautiful” on their own.

            Is that so? So, the fact that they kill homosexuals in Saudi Arabia must be okay.

            And, since homosexuals claim that they are being treated unfairly, then that is not true either because that is only true as far as they are concerned. That is just your subjective opinion.

            or STFU

            Well, what can I say, such vileness is to be expected from you. So thank you for proving me right.

          • RandomUserName13

            Haha. Seriously? First, learn some history then maybe you can stop repeating it. It has not always been man and a women. There have been several man/man marriages. Just because, you choose not to see it as such does not mean they didn’t happen.

            As for the 2nd part. There is not much I can say to that backwards mentality. Proof that your reality is very skewed. Like tin-foil hat in the shape of a cross skewed. It’s like I am going to murder people in the name of God. I can throw stones at anyone as long as they are not Christians, well, Christians that think like me. Because, you know I can interpret any way I like. Like a good fake christian.

            Ok, last word is yours again big winner, wiener, whatever you need for victory of your sad little path you have chosen.

          • MarcAlcan

            There have been several man/man marriages.

            Wonderful! I am sure you have anticipated this question: please provide support. And I am not talking about abberations (one or two calling themselves married in violation of the greater societies norm). So, eagerly waiting your facts to support this.
            As for your 2nd paragraph. So much yadda yadda again with no argument, data or reason. If you are not going to present these, surely you could have saved yourself the effort to typing. Still I am always waiting for a reasoned response anytime.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Well referenced info here:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

            It doesn’t matter to the 14th Amendment, though, so just research for your edification.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            I take it you didn’t really read the article?

            It said: A same-sex union was known in Ancient Greece and Rome, ancient Mesopotamia and the only support it could give was the incantantations for the dead? Seriously?

            The article makes claims but no facts. All the supposed support are vague.

            Did you look at the footnotes? Did you not see the titles?

            It doesn’t matter to the 14th Amendment, though

            What has the 14th amendment got to do with the proposed pervertion of marriage?
            You are claiming unequal treatment but you’ve never been denied anything that is not available to those with normal sexual attraction.

            It’s pure BS – this recourse to the 14th amendment.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus — if you experience “normal sexual attraction” when considering potential partners … YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!
            __________

            The 14th Amendment merely tells the government not to discriminate.

            The 1st Amendment tell the government that each person’s morals are their own.

            I don’t appreciate your wasted breath lecturing others.

            And I certainly expect everyone’s government to ignore your demands.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            if you experience “normal sexual attraction” when considering potential partners … YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!

            So abnormality is for you the order of the day. I suppose that is to be expected from you.

            The 14th Amendment merely tells the government not to discriminate.

            And there is no discrimination. Discrimination is only in your fevered mind.

            And if you think that no discrimination must be absolute, then neither must we discriminate against paedophiles and pederasts. But I am sure you are all for not discriminating against pederasts.

            The 1st Amendment tell the government that each person’s morals are their own.

            Does it really? Do point out the exact paragraph where it says that.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus, I was reading the Constitution, looking for it protecting the rights of only ‘normal’, even defining ‘normal’, and all I could come up with is from the Declaration of Independence, something about “all are equal”.

            You’d know if you read it.

            If you follow our common references, we’ll get along fine.

            If you insist on inflicting your personal preferences on others, especially through the agency of everyone’s government, then no, we will not get along.
            __________

            Please quote any lie or filth from me — I know of none.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            was reading the Constitution, looking for it protecting the rights of only ‘normal’, even defining ‘normal’, and all I could come up with is from the Declaration of Independence, something about “all are equal”.

            But your rights have always been protected. The question is not whether normal or abnormal but whether you gays have ever been denied what is given to the straights.

            You haven’t provided any instance yet. If you can tell me a right that is not afforded to you and is afforded to the straight then do tell me.

            Please quote any lie or filth from me — I know of none.

            The homosexual lifestyle. It is a lie and full of filth.

          • RandomUserName13

            Also you can say something doesn’t exist all you it does not make it so. Otherwise theye would be no Assholes. Disagree with something all you want. It still will be. Marriage has nothing to do with religion. Plenty of non-Christians get married why don’t you tell them it doesn’t exist? Marriage was around before religion. It is of the heart.

          • MarcAlcan

            Also you can say something doesn’t exist all you it does not make it so

            In this case there really isn’t. The law cannot make something out of nothing.

            . Marriage has nothing to do with religion.

            Perhaps, but marriage has always been between a man and a woman because it has everything to do with nature. The law can declare that a dog Is really a cat but that does not make the dog a cat.

            Marriage was around before religion.

            As old as religion. People have always had religion though they be of the pagan variety.

            It is of the heart.

            Of the heart? That is a recent construct. In the old days marriage is about building alliances. Romance does not factor in.
            The only thing constant is that it is between man and woman.

          • RandomUserName13

            No reply needed on this one. Move on to getting your last word. Feel validated in your victory of having all the last words my sad little friend. LOL.

          • MarcAlcan

            Validated only in the sense that truth always wins even though the lie can look like winning the battle. And that is not my victory.

            Yes, I am indeed sad to see so many still wanting to remain mind in perversity and filth when salvation is at hand. It truly confuses me how some can choose the former. But then we are fallen human beings. Still, one would think that if freedom is available one would choose that over slavery.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            When you wrote “… mind in perversity and filth …”, @MarcAlcan:disqus, I at first thought it was a typo, and you meant “mired” instead of “mind”.

            But then I realized that the only “perversity and filth” is in your mind.

            Well said after all.

            And as @RandomUserName13:disqus suggests, you always try for the last word:

            — on this point, you’ve got the last word with no rebuttal from me

            your mind is definitely full of perversity and filth.

            Thanks for that.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            at first thought it was a typo, and you meant “mired” instead of “mind”.

            But then I realized that the only “perversity and filth” is in your mind.

            Well said after all.

            If “well said”, then you are saying that I am right that your mind is in filth? 🙂 After all, I was talking about you when I wrote that. And you think it is well said.
            Well thank you for volunteering such unsavoury information about yourself. I must commend your honesty.
            So what does it feel like to have mind in filth? No don’t tell me. I really don’t want to know.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus — we can ONLY talk about ourselves, regardless of accuracy or appropriateness.

            I read your posts as about you, mine about me.

            I fully expect you to differ.

            Just because.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Is that why your posts are so illogical? Because you can’t get past your personal feelings?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You confuse self awareness versus speculation and projection onto others, and you confuse emotions versus intellect.

            We’re each on a path — enjoy yours, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            Now, back to the subject at hand:

            — legalized discrimination, or not.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            You confuse self awareness versus speculation and projection onto others, and you confuse emotions versus intellect.

            Again, what has self awareness got to do with our discussion?

            Now, back to the subject at hand:
            — legalized discrimination, or not.

            Was that the topic? Not at all.
            Persecution was the topic. Persecution of those who disagree with you bullies.
            There was never any discrimination. Only bullying from the likes of you. But that is expected because that is the only way you people know how to act. It comes with the condition.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh, @MarcAlcan:disqus, I believe you are more than a mouthpiece.

            But you do tend to reduce people down to their sexual organs.

            Stop that — there’s more to life than endless thinking about sexual pleasure.

            Isn’t there?

            Hmm …

            I don’t really know, yet.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            But you do tend to reduce people down to their sexual organs.

            I did? You did. After all, isn’t your protest precisely about that?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            According to the 14th Amendment, we-the-people’s self-governance cannot discriminate against same-sex couples when it comes to equal protection, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            Though I hear your preferences for yourself, I see no compelling reason why anyone else should have your preferences inflicted on them by everyone’s government.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            According to the 14th Amendment, we-the-people’s self-governance cannot discriminate against same-sex couples when it comes to equal protection,

            But you have never been discriminated against. This is the whole stupid lie of this discrimination argument. You WERE NEVER discriminated against.
            You work.
            You are allowed to own property.
            You live.
            You are allowed to marry.
            You are allowed to vote.

            Every single right and privilege that a person with normal sexual inclinations have, you have.

            So please enough of the violin playing and the cries of “woe to victim me”.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Me?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yes, @MarcAlcan:disqus, for a clerk or any government service provider to deny service based on the gender of the citizen would be discrimination.

            Duh.
            .

          • Guy Bounds

            Peter, what you are saying discrimination gender, age, race or sexual orientation, of any type is illegal

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Duh.

            Do you drop your pants so the seller or service provider can perform a genitals check on you before they will sell you their goods or provide their services?

            Maybe you like that.

            I don’t.

            And neither does the Constitution, especially the 14th Amendment.

            Why do you ask?

            What did you think equal protection under law means, @guybounds:disqus?
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Yes, indeed that would be true.
            But in this case they were not denied service because they were men.

            That was so obvious and yet you did not get that?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Of course she discriminated because they were men, @MarcAlcan:disqus.

            Men she believed had declared themselves sub-human by their declaration of their same-sex partnership / marriage.

            And therefore ‘below’ the law of equality.

            ‘Permitting’ her to discriminate.

            Permitting her to express her personal preferences through her business.

            As denial of service to a class of people she condemns for their legal, equal behavior.
            __________

            Define bigot any other way.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Of course she discriminated because they were men, MarcAlcan.

            Men she believed had declared themselves sub-human by their declaration of their same-sex partnership / marriage.

            You truly are profoundly comprehension challenged. Did you not know that she has been selling them flowers before even though she knew they were gay? Or are you blind as well as deaf? Or is that a consequence of your inclination and practice of depravity?

          • ppp777

            Your like most of your kind you cannot discern between right and wrong .

          • RandomUserName13

            And like your kind, fake christian, cherry pick what is acceptable sin and what is not. Or are you agreeing the 3rd marriage cake should fall under the same discrimination. It is people like you who will destroy Christianity. I know what is right and wrong you obviously do not. So hateful. Your opposite of your belief.

          • ppp777

            Yawn .

          • MarcAlcan

            You mean the same customer who took her to court because she refused his money? If they are indeed loyal they would not have taken her to court. So obviously they are as fake and devious as they are deviant.

        • Peter Leh

          it is difficult to be persecuted for the very thing you agreed to.

          No this is called: “consequence”

          • MarcAlcan

            She never agreed to sell wedding cakes for gay marriage.
            So yes, this is called persecution.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Same sale.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Exactly! Same sale.
            So I take it you will sell a gun to someone who just told you that he intends to go on a shooting spree and it is evident that he intends to carry this through?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @MarcAlcan:disqus, I don’t sell guns — their only purpose is to kill, something I’m averse to on either end.
            .

          • MarcAlcan

            Sigh, obviously you did not get it again.

          • ppp777

            ???

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            ! ! !
            .

          • Peter Leh

            “She never agreed to sell wedding flowers for gay “marriage”.”

            Of course she did. Hence the citation.
            if she did not agree to it the business policy and services must change to reflect adherence. Or she could have changed her registration with the state.

            “Let’s suppose you are a gun seller.”
            no need to go into hypotheticals when reality is right in front of all . 🙂

          • MarcAlcan

            Of course she did. Hence the citation.

            And I am sure you can prove that she agreed to sell wedding flowers for gay marriage.

            So please, show that.

            no need to go into hypotheticals when reality is right in front of all . 🙂

            It’s not just a hypothetical. It’s an analogy. And like usual you have no comeback.

          • Peter Leh

            “And I am sure you can prove that she agreed to sell wedding flowers for gay marriage.”

            I am saying she violated her own covenant she set up with the state. If she could or can not accommodate public accommodation laws she has the opportunity per the state to change her business policy OR change her registration to satisfy the state regulation AND her conscience.

            She dropped the ball, so to speak. this is all on her.

          • Peter Leh

            “And like usual you have no comeback”

            He he… i a being polite.

          • ppp777

            No , it is called ” apostasy “

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, @ppp777,

            ‘Apostasy’ is generally thought of as someone’s abandonment or renunciation of their own religious or political BELIEF.

            No one has ever stopped her from holding or experssing her BELIEF, or practicing her BELIEF on herself.

            However, of course, the public marketplace if NOT the venue for one’s own religious or political BEHAVIOR experssed as DISCRININATION against someone else, against an entire class of people from the generl public.

            The law and judges and legislature have no problem disentangling these concepts.

            If freedom in an open, diverse, and complex society is too much for you, you can run and hide.

            But you have no superior rights to demand that other equal citizens make themselves screce and compromise their equalty because of your religious preferences for yourself.
            .

          • ppp777

            America was built on A Judeo / Christian framework , what is yours built on ? you have a damn cheek saying she has a right to practice her belief on herself , what kind of logic is that , your world view has everything to do with how you run a business and how laws come into force , start taking away complexity and start using that now very rare commodity ,[ common sense ] , your own world view im afraid is built on sand .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @ppp777:disqus.

            (a) Please identify ANYTHING in the US Constitution that even remotely refers to or mirrors anything from Judeo-Christian scripture or wisdom literature.

            Then let’s discuss.

            … waiting … ( crickets ) …
            __________

            (b) ‘World’ view?

            Constitution again, the supreme law of the US.

            And the Declaration of Independence is a nice credo, don’t you think?

            Add the Amendments, legislation, case law, the Gettysburg Address, and so on.

            It’s all American wisdom literature.

            It makes a good team.

            It beats the hell out of the Bibles (all 1,000+of ’em).

            Especially considering that the US was founded on recoiling against slavery …

            … slavery supported by Bible thumpers.

            Good riddance.
            __________

            (c) You and others seem to think religion is something you can inflict on others.

            Hence my comment that, no, it’s something you practice — freely, mind you — on yourself, and on yourself alone.

            And no one has ever interfered with Baronelle Stutsman’s beliefs or practice of her own religion on herself.
            __________

            I like your tone, though: “… you have a damn cheek …” — very funny.

            I’ll just turn that cheek now.
            .

          • ppp777

            Don’t worry , you will meet this God one day the God that has abandoned America , and you may well be sent to hell for your shear ignorance alone [ wilful ignorance ] .

          • Peter Leh

            i think you are off subject. 🙂

            how can it be persecution when everything the business did was on the business’s own volition?

            the government is only enforcing the covenant the business voluntarily made with the state.

            i am here to help educate those who dont know business.

            I am not asking here, i am telling. 🙂

          • ppp777

            I don;t need a weather man to tell me which way the wind blows , the business did not agree to promote homosexual ” marriage ” , and you know that .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Right, @ppp777:disqus — the business agreed to sell flowers to the general public without discrimination, that is the agreement they reneged on.
            .

          • Peter Leh

            the business agreed to the rules of the state for public accommodation. the business set up and agreed to the conditions. The business has the right to change the registration or business policy to satisfy the state AND their conscience.

            the state is only enforcing what the business agreed to.

            IF the business does not agree to “promote homosexual marriage” THEN the business must make the appropriate changes to reflect that conviction.

            Any citation form the state is based on the registration made by the business, ergo any citiaion is on the business side not the state.

            either way it is on the business

          • ppp777

            Again that is legalistic claptrap , it is self evident that a bible believing Christian [ in which America was built ] would promote anything to do with homosexuality , if you don’t like it there are plenty like you who will accommodate it , it is called the free market .

          • Peter Leh

            there were plenty of seat in the south for blacks to sit, right?

            a legalistic claptrap indeed.

            again, we have tried that argument before. You may not like, i may not like it. BUt the reason we have public accommodation laws is because when given a chance those in power could not behave.

          • ppp777

            Yes like Chuck missler said , ” America had an I Q test , it was called the 2008 elections , and they failed miserably ” , man was he right , Dr kings dream has turned into a nightmare , just to think the trouble he went through only to end up with a reprobate like Obama in office ,if it weren’t so demonic it would be hilarious , Dr king must be spinning in his grave .

          • Peter Leh

            yep…. but i got out of the politics game long ago. 🙂

            the world is better when one takes of the political lenses. 🙂

          • ppp777

            You seem to be more the exception than the rule , but unfortunately we have a system , it is called democracy .

          • Peter Leh

            “You seem to be more the exception than the rule”

            ill take that as a compliment. thank you 🙂

            “but unfortunately we have a system , it is called democracy ”

            still the best one though. like the book said” pick a better country”

          • ppp777

            ” The best ” , that is very debatable to say the very least .

          • Peter Leh

            add that comment as to one of the reasons why it is “the best”

            savvy? 🙂

          • Peter Leh

            between the genocide of the indians and slavery of the blacks you think NOW is the time we have lost the moral ground?

            please.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

            things are looking up… lol

          • ppp777

            You were given control especially after the second world war , they blew it , as for slavery well that is a complexed subject and not as black and white as you seem to make it out to be .

          • Peter Leh

            black and white? It was REVOLUTIONARY! Off the map.

            no one gives a thought of ending slavery, and we did? check
            womens rights? check
            age discrimination? check
            religious protection? check

            it just keeps getting better and better?

            name a better country and a better time for all?

      • MarcAlcan

        Yes, there is.
        She has been labelled bigot and homophobic all because she stands for the truth of Christ.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          No, because she is a bigot and a homophobe.

          The truth in Christ would officiate at the same-sex couple’s wedding, make some swell wine, and probably cater with loaves and fishes, at least.

          Jesus (I presume your “Christ”) loved parables with a twist, and same-sex marriage would have been fertile ground for his wit.

          Ruth wasn’t a Jew, but she was a better Jew than many Jews (“old” testament).

          The prodigal son wasn’t a good son, but he was a loved son (new testament).

          I think you inappropriately project your own lack of imagination, and severe self denigrating restrictions onto your Christ. @MarcAlcan:disqus.

          I don’t think Jesus had your limits on love.

          And that’s a good thing.
          .

          • MarcAlcan

            No, because she is a bigot and a homophobe.

            She is neither. Enough of your bullying tactic. We are on to your bullying tactic.

            The truth in Christ would officiate at the same-sex couple’s wedding,

            You mean the devil would. And yes, he most certainly would. It is his project after all.

            Jesus (I presume your “Christ”) loved parables with a twist, and same-sex marriage would have been fertile ground for his wit.

            You no doubt wish so. But sadly it ain’t so.

            How people love to say “What would Christ do?”

            Well hellooo, we do not need to second guess because He has already gone on record with what He said and what He did.

            The prodigal son wasn’t a good son, but he was a loved son (new testament).

            And he was repentant! Get that? He was repentant! Do I hear a mea culpa from you?
            Will you return to Christ with words like his? Will you say I have sinned against heaven and against you by living my depraved lifestyle? Will you repent of this sin?
            But how can you repent when you think that what you are doing is good? You are like the young son in behaviour but with the older son’s attitude.
            This is the beauty of Christian teaching. Salvation is to be had for the asking. We just need to repent. That is true of every single one of us.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You’re funny, @MarcAlcan:disqus — predictable, but funny.

            The two don’t usually go together, but you do have a talent.

            Of course the bully must defend themselves as being bullied when called out on their bullying.

            Lemme see:

            1 — customer asks vendor for their publicly advertised goods and services

            2 — vendor says “your kind not welcome here”

            3 — world calls vendor “bigot”

            4 — vendor defends against being bullied.

            Got it.
            __________

            I don’t recall any evidence that Jesus or anyone who knew him going on record.

            So, hey, your guess for you is as good as mine is for me.

            There’s nothing to argue here — speculation only deserves one round or so, but has nowhere to go, essentially.
            __________

            I think it’s perverse to stick your nose in someone else’s pants.

            You think it’s perverse what you find there.

            I’m not going to play scratch and sniff with you.
            .

        • Peter Leh

          Is it because she is a christian or because she violated her covenant with the state by discriminating against protected groups?

          • MarcAlcan

            She never had a covenant with the state.
            You are too dumb that you do not even understand what a covenant is.
            You should try studying more.
            I played along with your covenant analogy just to humour you and expose the stupidty of your reasoning.
            You were so correct that you did not evade idiocracy. It is even you live under it.

          • Peter Leh

            “She never had a covenant with the state.”

            If she never had a covenant with the state then she has bigger problems than violation of public accommodation laws.

            “You are too dumb that you do not even understand what a covenant is”

            😉

            “You should try studying more.”

            😉

            “I played along with your covenant analogy just to humour you and expose the stupidty of your reasoning.”

            😉

          • MarcAlcan

            If she never had a covenant with the state then she has bigger problems than violation of public accommodation laws.

            Like I said, you are too dumb to even go down the covenant tangent.
            She does not have a problem because nothing was broken. No covenant was broken. Now you go down public accommodation law? LOL

          • Peter Leh

            please refer to the SOS website for the list of rules and regulations to do business with in the state.

          • MarcAlcan

            Please show where she violates the rules.

          • Peter Leh

            did you reference the SOS rules and regulations in the state of washington?

  • Bill

    I like her!

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      This is not a dating service.
      .

  • John McGlone
    • Gary

      This insanity is happening because people have rejected God’s moral absolutes. They want to define right and wrong themselves.

      • Badkey

        We don’t all grovel before your monster, Gary. We should not be forced to live under its rules.

        • Gary

          And I don’t want to be forced to live under your rules.

          • Paul Hiett

            The doors are wide open for you to leave this country…

          • Gary

            I would rather you leave.

          • Badkey

            Then civil law applies to you, just as it does me.

          • Gary

            You have to go too.

          • Badkey

            No, I’ll stay just like you will… And you abide by law, or deal with the consequences.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re the one moaning and crying about how you don’t like the laws, not me.

            See, I like it here. You don’t.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Of course you would — other people MUST take action to please you, because, hey, you da boss.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Or live completely freely IN it, as Jesus would.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @disqus_GLH5yIIEtR:disqus, please explain what force you’re referring to — thanks.
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          @disqus_GLH5yIIEtR:disqus cannot refer to anything BUT man’s rules.
          .

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        How Constitutional of them!

        Maybe they could have a Declaration of Independence to boot.

        😉

        .

    • Paul Hiett

      John, I had to stop reading after your first “example”. It’s entirely incorrect to the situation here. You give an example of a Jewish meat market refusing to sell pork to a Gentile. The problem with your example is that the meat market did not refuse to sell pork because the man was a Gentile/Christian. They did not sell the product at all. Furthermore, the meat market would also not have advertised the pork in the first place, so there is absolutely no reason anyone would ever go there to buy pulled pork.

      To give you a little better clarity, it would be like a Japanese man suing Long John Silvers for not serving sushi.

      The bottom line here is that discrimination is not tolerated under the laws of this nation. And while you may think the laws of God are more important, they do not trump man’s law here on earth. Just because you claim a law is unjust does not mean it is, nor does it mean that you can break it and not face the consequences.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        Besides, the non-discrimination laws do not give any citizen customers any superior rights other citizen customers don’t have — we’re all just getting inclusive in adding more and more of we-the-people into all of we-the-people.
        .

    • Badkey

      SO much fear and paranoia! So sweet!

      • John McGlone

        How’s that? What fear and paranoia? Why not just deal with the article and the points therein?

        • Badkey

          Your link is nothing but fear mongering and paranoia.

          • John McGlone

            Bald assertions don’t prove truth. Why not just deal with the article and the points therein?

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      The page seems to have been annihilated — comes up blank for me.

      Care to tell us what YOU have to contribute here?
      .

  • Rexford Belleville

    Where does this slippery slope they are calling “legal or illegal discrimination” end and who gets to decide for all people? Why is it okay to discriminate against people who want to parade around in public with no clothes on let alone no shirt no shoes no service? People should have a right to do business based upon their ability to please their customers in a competitive manner and should not be forced to provide service in a way that violates their conscience.

    • Paul Hiett

      Rex, I would caution you to actually read up on the law first before arguing out of opinion.

      A business that sells a product or service to the general public may not discriminate against customers (or employees for that matter) based on gender, race, religious beliefs, or in some states, sexual orientation. These laws exist to protect everyone, btw, not just homosexuals.

      If you are not willing to sell your goods or services to everyone, then you shouldn’t open a business. If you do, and decide to break the law, you must accept the consequences of your actions.

      • Rexford Belleville

        I think this woman has been in business longer than the law which obviously does not protect everyone or she would not be in the position she is in. If loving God more than man is now against the law then the law has become an object of worship.

        • Badkey

          Why aren’t you fighting against your own public accommodations protections?

          Hypocrite much?

        • Paul Hiett

          Who is preventing you from “loving God”??? Obviously no one.

          Businesses don’t get special protection just because they’ve been around for a while. If a law changes, it changes for everyone, and a business must either adapt, or close it’s doors. This happens ALL the time, and not just regarding discrimination.

          Businesses must adapt to changing laws constantly, it’s simply a fact about running a business. Your ignorance of the law is severely hurting your ability to debate this subject with any semblance of education.

          • Rexford Belleville

            Everything in a Christians life should be a form of worship that honors God first according to their conscience. A law that requires that man be honored above God is immoral and not worthy to be followed.

          • Paul Hiett

            Whether you think a law is moral or not is irrelevant when it comes to the laws of this country. Our laws are not Biblical laws, and I really don’t understand why you can’t grasp this.

            You can consider any law you want to be immoral, and in fact you can even choose not to follow that law. However, you must accept the consequences of your actions, one of which is being arrested.

            On Earth, man’s law always trumps any religious law.

          • Rexford Belleville

            It’s not what I think it is about what the bible says. Christians can honor God by following all of mans laws, Rom 13, up to the point that those laws require that we honor man above God Rev 13. Every true Christian knows how this ends and that is with the erradication of True Christianity and we are prepared to pay the price.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Please get back to us with any law that requires anyone to do anything.

            Thanks.
            .

          • Gary

            I don’t want to be arrested. That is why I am careful about how and when I break the law.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Good for you then?

            Does your God have a legal team I can call, too?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            What law required her to become a florist serving all of we-the-people in the general public (in a Constitutional society where discrimination was outlawed 70 years ago)?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            And did they send the Police to drag her out of bed to show up for work against her will?

            Maybe you know something I don’t know about what they do to Christians in that town, @rexfordbelleville:disqus — do tell.
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          She loves her beliefs more than she loves running a public-facing business serving all of we-the-people — time for her to go anyway.
          .

      • Rexford Belleville

        When mans law becomes god and requires our love for man above our love for God then we must decide who we will worship. People who have been in business for decades are suddenly at fault when the law changes because they somehow were imputed with the knowledge of future laws is ludicrous.

        • Badkey

          God is your choice, nothing more. It deserves no better treatment than what other citizens get. Including public accommodations protections.

          Why the hypocrisy?

          • Rexford Belleville

            You are the hypocrite. How can man create a law that requires people to honor man above God without calling it a religion of humanism that is imposed upon people who don’t worship man?

          • Paul Hiett

            And why do you assume that everyone believe exactly what you believe, and follow the rules of your particular religion? Why do you put yourself up on the pedestal and look down at everyone else?

            Should we not all have the same rights and protections as anyone else, regardless of what religious beliefs we hold?

          • Rexford Belleville

            I elevate Christ while you elevate man which inherently and conveniently includes your own person and is very appealing to the world.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, I ask, should we not all have the same rights and protections as anyone else, regardless of what religious beliefs we hold?

            Can you answer that question, please?

          • Rexford Belleville

            If we are going to establish a law that defines at least in part some level of morality who decides what that is? I would submit to you that the laws today will not be morally sufficient for tomorrow based upon current behaviors regardless if they are indeed accepted by the majority or not. At some point there is a line that cannot be crossed without creating the very conditions that it was originally designed to prevent. We are at that point based upon what the bible says not upon what I think or anybody else thinks at least for a very brief moment. If you think that you are on solid ground with your logic you are not because the immorality of the future will be able to do to you what you do to others. So Should we not all have the same rights and protections as anyone else? Of course so long as those laws are not just morally acceptable but are in fact morally sound based on something other that what people currently think is a good idea otherwise you have no right or authority to claim that your ideas for what is moral or is not is any better than the people you disagree with. I contend that this law is immoral to the point that a Christian no longer has the right to work with a clear conscience as an act of worship towards God. John 9:4

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Hey, there’s never been a guarantee that every job in the frickin’ world would be appropriate for anyone who wants to fulfill their religious calling through it — why whine about such universal conditions now?

            Even Jesus didn’t want to be a carpenter after a fashion.

            I’m vegetarian, and I don’t expect a butcher shop to fulfill my moral destiny — why should they?

            When I was 18, subject to the draft, as a pacifist, I did not expect a military career to fulfill my moral expectations — sue them, should have I?

            They’re not here for me as employers, and certainly not here to read my mind and follow and be subservient to my own chosen religious beliefs — why would they, how could they?

            I think you have a very poor and weak understanding of taking personal responsibility for one’s self, and who is supposed to walk your own path for you:

            — nobody but you.

            And if your creator joins you, peachy.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Is there something wrong or illegal in his choice of expression of his creator’s unalienable rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, same as you?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Hey, I admit that I worship myself, but you don’t have to, and no law compels you to.

            So, please, tell us what law compels you to do (or believe) anything?

            Details, please.

            I’m waiting with bated breath!
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            It is the law of love who is a single person we desire to know and worship by experience. The truth of love causes us pain because this person we seek to know is not only love but is also holy which we are not. Don’t be so bitter against those you think are against you because what is harmful is the lack of contrast in our own hearts and bitterness will keep us from it.

        • Paul Hiett

          Don’t get me wrong, I understand your beliefs. I just don’t care about them. You believe you’ll be reunited with your god at some point…hey that’s great, woohoo and all that. But, until then, while you live in this country, your religious beliefs do not matter when it comes to following the law. Laws change all the time.

          It was a law at one point that blacks had to sit in the bus. The law changed. Do you think that means that all blacks who had to sit in the bus then still have to after the law has changed?

          Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. If a business owner doesn’t like a new law, they can either close their business, or break it at the risk of being punished. Plain and simple.

          • Rexford Belleville

            I reject your moral equivalency of slavery and homosextuality on the basis that there is no biblical narrative that supports it. You cannot make a law that forces people to honor man above God and not believe that your law is your religion that you impose upon others.

          • Paul Hiett

            I didn’t equate slavery and homosexuality. My point was in regard to a law that changed. You completely ignored that.

            And while you may not like it, yes, we can create laws that honor man above your religious symbol. Christianity is merely one of over 4200 religions. There are even over 42,000 (yes, forty two THOUSAND) denominations of your religion. Who gets to choose which religion we base our laws from?

            I think you live in a very narrow minded world in which your belief system seems to be the only one that matters. You need to learn to respect the beliefs of everyone, not just those that share yours.

          • Rexford Belleville

            I ignored it because I did not want to validate your false assertions. We follow all laws and respect all authorities, Rom 13, up to the point at which mans laws become their own form of religion, Rev 13. At that point it is time to part ways.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Really, what law compels you to do anything?
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            All Christians honor God by respecting and obeying all the laws of man, Rom 13, up to the point that mans laws become a religion that requires honoring man above God, Rev 13. At that point it is time to go. It looks like the time is upon us.

          • Badkey

            Ooooo… Spooky paranoia!

          • Rexford Belleville

            Not really we knew this day was coming John 9:4

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            What law compels you to do anything?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No law compels this woman to do anything.
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          If you don’t see your God in others, especially in all your customers, customers with cash in hand showing you their love, that’s your problem — get out of business, or go out of business.

          There’s nothing in the law that compelled this woman to become a public-facing business — she has been free to make any choice she wanted to make, even illegal ones … for a while.
          .

    • Badkey

      Really, darlin? Public health codes escape you? Wow…

      This is an example of why you’re losing.

      • Rexford Belleville

        We don’t need a victory, we already have one in Christ. When the law requires service to man above God then the law has become the god of man.

        • Badkey

          Then stop whining about gay marriage.

          • Rexford Belleville

            I am not the one crying and forcing people to validate my sin

          • Badkey

            I’m not either. Im winning a cultural, secular war against hostility and desire to harm.

            As for “sin”, if you guys stood against all sin without cherry picking, folks might believe you. And even then, it would have no bearing on US law.

          • Mr. Avatar

            Secular LOL a Marxist bit of propaganda who ever you are! “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia] – James Madison 4th President father of the Constitution. Your days are numbered!!!

          • Badkey

            Good for Virginia. I already won there. Not one fundy made a difference.

          • Paul Hiett

            And in 1778 it was still legal to own people…a practice supported by the Bible, as well, I might add.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Virginia is for GAY lovers, haven’t you heard?
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            You worship who and how you want to and so will I even if people like you want to make it illegal for people like me based on your own definition for what is morally right, hypocrite.

          • Paul Hiett

            How is gay marriage making something illegal for you?

          • Rexford Belleville

            This woman worked for decades in a way that allowed her to honor God first until the law suddenly made it illegal.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            God’s law from before time is to love only.

            Not to discriminate.
            .

          • Badkey

            You lying little sad-sack. I’ve never asked to do away with your mythology or any other.

            If lying is a sin, this forum is full of sinners?

            You poor, pathetic little thing.

          • Rexford Belleville

            If you want to remain relevant to the discussion then you have to stay in control. The one with the weakest position is always the one to belittle those with positions that they envy. It’s the only way they can compete.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Please identify any attempt to make your worship illegal.

            … and I will fight by your side for your freedom of religion.

            … and I will fight along with the many (gay Christian) soldiers defending the Constitution for you.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yes you are — you want validation for hateful bigotry expressed as discrimination.
            .

          • Rexford Belleville

            It is the love of Christ and for Christ that compels us becaus he replaces our sin with his righteousness. It is not possible to love what is pure without hating what is not. There is a big difference between sin and man but what can be done when they only have love for each other? Shall the truth be ignored in the honor of sin? No, that would be a betrayal and denial of Christ himself.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Duh.

          The Constitution is the supreme law of the US.
          .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      If you think some customer may be a sinner, then get our of the customer service business.
      .

  • Mr. Avatar

    Congress cannot establish a religion and cannot impede the free exercise of religion, which they are doing.

    • Badkey

      Yeah, that’s why we’re seeing you guys bring that up in court so often. What a great argument.

    • Paul Hiett

      How is legalizing gay marriage impeding your freedom of religion?

    • Badkey

      Your photo just offers more evidence that many Christians are just like ISIS. Cute.

      • Gary

        You and your ilk are the ones destroying the country.

        • Badkey

          How? What tangible, measurable harm is there?

          Public accommodations laws? Oh, Gary you guys had them first. Was that destroying the country?

          Most gay citizens still don’t enjoy them, hypocrite.

        • Paul Hiett

          Tell us, Gary, what rights have you lost in this country?

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Gays ARE part of the country — we’re only trying to integrate more of we-the-people into all of we-the-people.

          What’s your goal for the country — to eliminate some of we-the-people?

          Hmm … who’s destroying the country, then?
          .

          • MarcAlcan

            Gays ARE part of the country — we’re only trying to integrate more of we-the-people into all of we-the-people.

            You’ve always been part of the people.
            That is why your arguments are stupid lies.
            The goal is not to eliminate you but one of your evil behaviours.
            It is sad that you equate yourself with your perversion. Like Peter and sodomy are one and the same thing so to go against Sodomy is to go against Peter. Really pathetic.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Congress?

      Help.

      Do you mean you want Congress to inflict the store owner’s religion on their customers for her?

      Please explain.

      Your picture of US terrorists sending a warning to foreigners seems misplaced — wrong thread?
      .

  • Sarok

    Religion is a fantasy, like faeries or unicorns. To base your personal beliefs on it is literally insane. The bible also says that shrimp/prawns are abominations – I don’t see you all giving that up. How many of you have tattoos? Abominations! How many of you wear clothes of mixed materials? Abomination! How many huts do you have built at the edges of your towns for women on their periods? Zero? Abominations! The bible is antiquated and it’s followers are full of hatred. There’s no difference between most Christians today and those middle eastern zealous Muslims that hate women, homosexuals and science. Get a grip.

  • Gary

    We are told that Christians will be in no danger from the advancement of homosexuality. We are told that ssm will have no effect on us at all. That we can disagree all we want, but that our lives will not change. Well, the case of this florist proves why what we have been told is a lie. Christians are very much at risk from ssm, and the promotion of perversion.

    • Badkey

      Marriage did not cause this. Public accommodations laws did.

      • Gary

        If it weren’t for ssm, no flowers for a ssm would have been requested. And, if kwiers had not been added to the “protected” status, no public accommodation law would have been broken.

        • Badkey

          Hypocrite.

          • Gary

            You and your fellow perversion promoters need not ever again try to tell Christians that homosexuality and ssm are no threat to us. It has been clearly demonstrated that those things are indeed a threat to us. As are you.

          • Badkey

            It must suck always living in fear.

          • Gary

            The point is, you dimwit, that the promises made to Christians from the sodomites and their promoters were all lies. You have every intention of harming Christians. But you should be aware, that some of us Christians won’t tolerate being harmed. We will fight back.

          • Paul Hiett

            How, exactly, have you been “harmed”. Can you cite an actual example?

          • Gary

            The florist in Washington is an actual example.

          • Paul Hiett

            Good grief…you refuse to accept that this woman broke the law. Regardless of whether you agree with the law, she broke it. She was, most certainly, not harmed by any stretch of the imagination.

            Now, can you actually cite an example where a Christian has been harmed by homosexuality?

          • Gary

            She WAS harmed for not accepting queers. You can lie, or pretend that didn’t happen, but it did. And that is exactly what you and the other queers intended.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            So … she voluntarily harmed herself.

            And that’s anyone else’s fault … because?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Go ahead, cite how she was harmed.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh, hit me with your pink purse, you big bully.

            And go directly to jail.

            While us Christians in the real world finally legally welcome all our family members into the fold.
            .

          • hapy_thoughts

            What threat? Don’t want to give flowers to gay people, then don’t open a flower shop. Problem solved. I think you don’t have a complete understanding of the word threat.

          • Gary

            Then you really are not willing to allow Christians to live without accepting homosexuality. You will threaten our ability to make a living. You will threaten to take our possessions if we don’t comply. And, I have no doubt that you will do much more if you can.

          • hapy_thoughts

            You can hate gay people all you want to. Being a jerk isn’t a crime. But if you want to opperate a bussiness you have to follow the law.

          • Gary

            You mean if I want to make a living, I have to accept homosexuals? That is what you mean, isn’t it?

          • hapy_thoughts

            There is a difference between acceptance and tolerance. It would be really nice if people like you could accept that there are people out there that think differently that you, but i would settle for getting people like you to be tolerant of others.

          • Gary

            Why should I be tolerant of perverts?

          • hapy_thoughts

            Because thats part of living in a society where people are free to believe want they want to.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Because they are tolerant of your perversion?

            Go to any florist and see if they’ll sell you flowers for you wedding.

            See?

            They tolerate you.

            Now quid pro quo.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Explain why you have to even know about anyone else’s sexuality, let alone judge?

            Me?

            I keep my nose out of OPP other people’s pants.

            And then, everyone smells rosy to me!

            Try it — you’ll like it.
            .

          • Paul Hiett

            How about following the laws of this country? It’s pretty simple. Everyone else is doing it, why can’t you?

          • Gary

            No.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            If she sold the flowers, provided the same service she sells to others, did a beautiful job, took the money, she could have paid the rent, and moved on to the next customer.

            She is the only one getting in the way of her livelihood.

            And, no religion compels anyone to enter a specific commercial enterprise.

            In fact, Jesus and the Saints owned nothing and were commerce averse.

            Maybe there’s something more to learn from them after all if you want to be a “true Christian” rather than a “$ecure Chri$tian”.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @disqus_GLH5yIIEtR:disqus,

            With hundreds of gay-affirming Christian denominations across the US (more world wide), with gay ministers, and married gay ministers, how could this possibly be a battle between gays and Christians?

            It’s not.

            It’s a battle between hateful bigotry versus the Constitutional protections of ALL citizens equally via anti-discrimination laws.

            Which we thought we resolved in 1964.

            Taking our country back … to the darkie ages, are you?

            “… Your kind not welcome here! …”
            .

        • Paul Hiett

          ROFL…oh yes, heaven forbid someone different from you is afforded the same protection that you take for granted.

          Your intolerance is amazing.

        • Opus35

          You really don’t think things through do you Gary?

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        No.

        Illegal, mean, hateful, self-righteous bigotry on the part of pretenders to the “true Christian” throne caused this.
        .

    • Opus35

      Gary you are not anti-gay. You are pro-discrimination.

      Just a thought, you would love the web site barbwire DOT com
      Tell them Opus sent you.

      • Gary

        Yes, I am anti-gay.

        • Paul Hiett

          Why don’t you tell Opus what you would like to do to anyone who is gay?

        • Opus35

          Sarcasm, are you not familiar with it?
          It’s great you embrace your, bigotry, homophobia and hate.
          Not very Christian of you. Is this what your Jesus Christ wanted from you?

          • Gary

            Do you know what Jesus Christ does with homosexuals and their supporters?

          • Opus35

            What Gary, what does the Prince of PEACE do? Please tell.

          • Gary

            He sends them to Hell. You think Jesus is some sissy who loves everyone? If that is what you think, you are wrong.

          • Opus35

            You know Gary, I don’t say this to often, but you are a great example of “I like your Jesus Christ, but not so much you Christians.” I paraphrase ~ Gandhi

          • Gary

            No, you don’t like Jesus any more than you like me. My beliefs are the same as his.

          • Opus35

            I don’t dislike you Gary?!? I don’t know you. I just think you are consumed with hate. I do like what I have heard about Jesus Christ. Would you have the same kind words, for me, and the Buddha? I would hope so. Your anger does you no good, it only causes more internal conflict and suffering. I wish you not to suffer.

          • Gary

            Have you ever read the New Testament? You should read it sometime. Find out what Jesus said. Then let me know if you still like him.

          • Opus35

            Have you ever read the dharma? Maybe the Tao Te Ching, you should read them some day, it could help to relieve your suffering.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            So only sissies love everyone?

            Well then, blessed are the sissies for they shall love everyone!

            Thanks for that — I’m sure the God I was told to find would be proud.
            .

          • Paul Hiett

            Let me get this straight…you are going to actually tell us what Jesus is going to do to gays? You know this as a fact? If you are foolish enough to actually spurt it out, I challenge you to also quote the Bible verse in which Jesus says it.

          • Gary

            What God does with sinners is clearly written in the Bible. You think that you know what the Bible says, so you tell me what Jesus says about what happens to homosexuals and their supporters.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Gary, that’s now how this works. You made the claim knowing what Jesus does to gay people. Tell us, and quote the BIble where he said it.

          • Gary

            Jesus said adultery and fornication were sins (Mark 7:21). All s-x outside of marriage is either adultery, or fornication. God limits marriage to a man and a woman. God does not permit ssm. Sinners are not allowed into Heaven, which leaves only one alternative.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            If I understand the promise of Jesus and his triumvirate with the Father and Holy Spirit, since they are one with everything through love, what they do “with homosexuals and their supporters” is and always will be:

            — Create them,

            — love them,

            — inspire them,

            — officiate and celebrate at their weddings,

            — make some neat wine in celebration,

            — watch over them and their children and families,

            — and take them home to heaven.

            Gotta love Jesus!
            .

    • Peter Leh

      “Well, the case of this florist proves why what we have been told is a
      lie. Christians are very much at risk from ssm, and the promotion of
      perversion.”

      the case proves no such thing. you are anti gay and have not been cited by the government. She was not personally cited by the government for her anti gay beliefs. but you already know that gary. 🙂

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Christians ARE gay, and gays ARE Christian.

      This woman discriminated, and got appropriately dinged for it.

      It’s been 70+ years since the US permitted legal discrimination.

      When were you told that discrimination was coming back, hmm?

      This is not about gays (who may or may not be Christian) versus Christians (who may or may not be gay).

      So what are you talking about?
      .

  • Evelyn

    She has a right to freedom OF her religion. Her belief of homosexuality being wrong follows the bible. Think “Sodom and Gomorrah”. Church and State need to remain separate! I hope she sticks to her guns!

    • Paul Hiett

      And everyone else also has that same right, along with the right to freedom from religion. This is not your world, nor your country. You share it with 4200 other religions, and atheists as well. Your religion is NOT my religion, and you will never be allowed to force it on someone else.

      Why you people think you’re so entitled is beyond me.

      • Gary

        The florist is trying to live her own life. She is not trying to force anything on anyone else. YOU are trying to force what you believe on her.

        • Paul Hiett

          She broke the law Gary, which is something you still can’t seem to understand.

          • Gary

            I have never said she didn’t break the law. But I have said it is a bad law that should not exist. It is a law that violates the freedom of religion and association. It is not a law I would obey. But I would not have handled it the way the florist did.

          • Paul Hiett

            It violates NOTHING of the sort. It does not force you to change your beliefs at all, and your claim of anything to the contrary is a lie and nothing more.

            Your “freedom of association” does not apply to a business. There are laws that govern commerce in this country, and if you wish to run a business, you must put your discriminatory feelings aside. Don’t, and subject yourself to the laws of this country.

          • Peter Leh

            “It is a law that violates the freedom of religion and association.”

            she still has the freedom to assemble. she still goes to church. she still believes gay marriage is wrong.

            but the citation was not about her, was it? the citation was a result of her business violating the covenant she herself set up with the state. 🙂 BUt you already know that, gary

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh?

            How would YOU say, “… Your kind not welcome here! …” in a respectful, legal, Christian way?

            Do tell.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          No, she is trying to run a public facing business, but denying some people equal access to her otherwise publicly available goods and services.

          That’s a licensed public service life, with regulations she promised to follow and obey.

          She reneged, and deserves to be denied participation in future public commerce as a vendor due to her unlawful discrimination against our fellow citizens.
          .

      • Melody Rainer Tregear

        Why homosexuals think they are so entitled is beyond me! Their practice is NOT our practice. Why should we be forced to participate in something that goes against our conscience? Yet that is what is happening. They are trying to FORCE everyone to accept what they do. And when you don’t, you are a ‘hater, etc’. It works both ways Paul.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Oh yes, how DARE those homosexuals think they are entitled to the same life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness as the rest of us regular citizens!

          Don’t they know they are second class citizens?

          How DARE they demand equal rights and protection under the law as if they were first class citizens like you and me!

          As if they paid the same taxes as you and me.

          As if they serve in the military like you and me.

          The NERVE of some of these minorities!

          Well, we couldn’t keep the black minority down forever, though we keep trying.

          And women, geesh, they’ve become a majority, but we never let them know, so we can continue to treat them like a minority and get away with it.

          We did pretty much get rid of those Indian heathen red skins — $1 for each skin you brought back to prove you killed one and skinned ’em.

          Them brown-skinned Hispanics, they just keep reproducing — what, do they think they are better Catholics that us TRUE CHRISTIANS?!?

          And now come the gays, so to speak — and yet again, we have to bow down and treat them with kid gloves, like they are some kind of royalty.

          We can’t fire them at will anymore.

          We can’t deny them housing anymore.

          We can’t taunt them and bully them and batter one occasionally on the street just for fun to keep them in the closet — dang!

          And now we have to serve them in our stores, in PUBLIC?!?

          What is this world coming to?!?
          .

          • Melody Rainer Tregear

            You sure are an expert at missing the point!

  • Duane Yoder

    This type of story will only become more common, I’m afraid. Jesus told us this was coming 🙂 Be strong, Christians,this is only temporary.

    “For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Cor. 1:18

    The world will never understand why we believe and live the way we do. We truly are “strangers and pilgrims” in this world.

    I love everyone of you here, whether you are a Christian or not. To those that do not believe, I pray God reveals himself to you in some way.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Yes, be strong, gay Christians, and Christians gays,

      — and their families and friends and communities and coworkers and so on

      — especially you gay soldiers who write a blank check with your life to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States,

      — then return to your home towns and have to deal with the people you fought for treating you like second class citizens,

      — locking you out of their businesses,

      — preventing you from participating in the local commercial community just like the person in line ahead of you in line, just like the person in line behind you in line,

      — but, no, you, only you, must get out of line, because,

      — “your kind not welcome here”.
      __________

      For shame, @duaneyoder:disqus,

      Do you not know that there are hundreds of gay affirming Christian communities in the US,

      — some with gay Christian ministers,

      — even married gay Christian ministers.

      .

      This is not a battle between gays and Christians.

      .

      This is a battle between

      — hateful bigots

      and

      — the 14th Amendment.
      .

  • Lynda Falls

    Stay strong and Jesus bless you richly, great is your reward in heaven. You will never know just how much of an inspiration, encouragement and example you are. Christians like you give such hope and blessings to all of us, and a light on the hill to the world. Truly the salt of the earth.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      I don’t think you understand:

      — she discriminated against an entire class of her customers from the general public,

      — against the law she promised to follow, but reneged (lied?),

      — and in this case, against someone who personally knew and appreciated and paid her for many years, breaking the customer’s heart.

      Shame, maybe.

      But no pride here.
      .

      • Melody Rainer Tregear

        No. She simply chose to not participate in a ceremony that is wrong according to God. She chose to obey God. Selling someone flowers and participating in their wedding is two totally different things. She did the right thing. Had she participated in the wedding, she would have shown, by her actions, that she is ok with what they were doing. As a Christian, she could not do that. You have a lot to say for someone who obviously does not know God the Father. If you did, you’d understand why she did what she did.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          @melodyrainertregear:disqus,

          You have no evidence or testimony that the wedding / marriage participants themselves were not also Christian.

          This is not a Christian or religious thing.

          This is a personal decision by the florist to discriminate.

          Fine.

          She is free to do so.

          Pay the fine, and go out of business, then.

          That would be her honoring her beliefs by backing them up with honorable behavior.

          But to discriminate then fight for superior permission to discriminate is just plain hateful.

          And illegal.
          .

  • Melody Rainer Tregear

    This is so wrong. The law is all about her not discriminating. What the heck do they think they are doing to her! May God show her favour and mercy and deal with the enemy who has come against her in this matter!

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      They, er, we-the-people, all equal under the law, as asking her to not discriminate.

      She promised when when got her business licenses, then she reneged and went against her legal promise.

      Ding!

      Duh.
      .

      • Melody Rainer Tregear

        Rubbish.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          … piled all around you, @melodyrainertregear:disqus.

          It’s the spillage overflowing from your inappropriate and inaccurate opinions about others.

          You’re doing it wrong if all you can see is your own rubbish.

          People are beautiful, inspirational, fun, lovers, little pieces of god.

          You’re definitely doing it wrong if you are so negative.

          Especially negative about love wherever people find it.

          But then, this is a story about a flower shop person who couldn’t smile on their customer’s joy with flowers.

          Definitely doing it wrong.
          .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      ,
      God HAS shown her favo(u)r … by sending some loving customers to her to pay her rent and connect with her over a lifetime of happy community building.

      And what does she do?

      She slams the door in her God’s face.

      Ouch!
      .

      • Melody Rainer Tregear

        Nope. She is simply obeying the Lord. If you knew Him, you’d know that.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          I AM Him.

          Don’t speak for me.

          I say:

          Give everyone equivalent consideration.

          The equivalent consideration that you think you want for or give to yourself.

          Love.

          Only love.

          If it doesn’t look like love, then don’t do it.

          If you wouldn’t receive it as love if it were done to you, then don’t do it.

          That’s what I do.

          Join me.

          No more second class citizens, ever, please.
          .

  • Lynda Falls

    Jesus does not condone sin as it destroys people spiritually and Jesus loves people so much that He speaks out against it and also came and died for the sins of all mankind so that they could be spared hell and giving everlasting life for all who repent and make Jesus their Lord and Saviour. All people are equal and deserve kindness and love. All people have freedom of choice and can choose to repent and be saved. The answer is not to justify our sins but rather to cry out to Jesus for forgiveness and salvation and that goes for all people. All people deserve to hear the truth, the gospel so that they can make the choice to repent and turn to Jesus who died for all and rose again triumphant.

    Matthew 11:21

    Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

    John preached against sin and it was considered unloving and offensive and he got beheaded.

    Matthew 14:10

    And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Aww, c’mon.

      Don’t ya think that beheading is a little severe a penalty to pay?

      For being a self-righteous hateful bigot.

      Who breaks the law, and her customer’s hearts.

      By discriminating against some customers in her business practice?
      __________

      A severe fine and loosing her business license will do.

      No need to go over the top (doh!).
      .

  • Lynda Falls

    It is never unloving to tell the truth and stay true to righteousness and refuse to take part in a procedure that damages others souls. She sold them flowers plenty of times before and was always kind to them but had too much love to participate in an event that was damaging to their souls. Taking part in their wedding is in essence condoning/blessing something harmful. That would also be spiritually and emotionally harmful to her as well and her soul matters too. There are other florists that could have provided the service without it hurting their conscience.
    This lady still cared about those people and was always kind to them, just spiritually and emotionally could not do that without destroying herself. She never hated the gays and was always happy to sell to them and serve them and was always kind to them but this was against her conscience. She has rights too.
    Ezekiel chapter 33

    7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me. 8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

    10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Judge much?
      .

  • Lynda Falls

    Acts 3:19
    Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Matthew 23:37
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Luke 13:34
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Interesting.

      So, you are saying that the gay customer can be thought of as a prophet?

      Sent to challenge the florist.

      To live up to the
      promise of her belief in Jesus as the conduit of her salvation?

      So, the florist was called to expand her loving, as Jesus taught.

      And yet she became possessed with fear of her fellow child of God.

      And sinned.

      But, she need only repent.

      Stop discriminating.

      Provide her publicly available and advertised goods and services equally to all of we-the-people in the general public.

      And she will be saved.

      Right?

      Praise the Lord!
      .

  • David

    There is a big difference between a cafe owner refusing to serve a gay customer food or drink, and a flourist refusing to provide flowers for a gay wedding. A big difference. It is not aganist the cafe owner’s beliefs to serve gay customers food and drink in their cafe. It is aganist the flourist’s beliefs to provide services for a gay event such as a gay wedding.

    Lets suppose the customer had been a pedo wanting to buy flowers for his wedding to a child. Wouldn’t the owner then have the right to refuse.

    Of course I’m not saying that a pedo and a gay person is equal. No way. Different entirely.

    However, with both circumtances the owners are within their rights to refuse service. They both have a valid and justified reason.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      STOP with the pedophilia comparisons — that’s a HETEROSEXUAL thing.
      .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      @disqus_cFsZueHG68:disqus asked,

      “… Lets suppose the customer had been a pedo wanting to buy flowers for his
      wedding to a child. Wouldn’t the owner then have the right to refuse
      [ ? ] …”

      Of course the florist has a ‘right’ to do anything they please, include go out of business if their choice of behavior is illegal or otherwise actionable in the licensed, regulated public marketplace.

      What’s your legal reference for suggesting a vendor has ANY legal support to discriminate against an entire class of people from the general public?.