Apostate Presbyterian Church USA Reaches Majority Vote to Redefine Marriage

PC Banner Credit Drama QueenLOUISVILLE, Ky. — A majority has been reached in the regional presbyteries of the Presbyterian Church (USA), which have been voting for the past several months on whether to ratify a vote taken by the General Assembly and regional delegates last year to change the definition of marriage in its law book and to allow ministers to perform same-sex “marriages” in states where the practice is legal.

“With today’s presbytery votes, a majority of the 171 presbyteries of the Presbyterian Church (USA) have approved an amendment to the church’s Book of Order that describes marriage as ‘a unique relationship between two people, traditionally a man and a woman,'” the Covenant Network of Presbyterians said in a statement on Tuesday.

As previously reported, last June, the General Assembly of PCUSA, headquarted in Louisville, Kentucky, voted 76-24 to allow licensed ministers to officiate such ceremonies. Delegates within the denomination also approved a proposal to change language in the PCUSA Book of Order to redefine marriage from being a union between “a man and woman” to rather only “two persons.”

But the change was not to become official until its 172 regional presbyteries across the country voted on the matter. A majority was needed for ratification. As voting has been incremental over a period of several months, regional presbyteries have been casting their ballot at various meeting times throughout the fall and winter.

On Tuesday, the 86th presbytery, The Presbytery of the Palisades of Fair Lawn, N.J., voted in favor of the proposal, marking the majority needed to ratify the change. Other presbyteries casting yes votes include Philadelphia 207-131, Seattle 111-93, West Virginia 92-44, South Louisiana 53-20, Middle Tennessee 92-84 and Chicago 179-60.

“Finally, the church in its constitutional documents fully recognizes that the love of gays and lesbian couples is worth celebrating in the faith community,” Brian Ellison, executive director of the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, told the New York Times.

But over 40 presbyteries have also voted against the change, including Central Florida 75-92, Minnesota Valleys 39-42, Mississippi 9-27, South Alabama 22-34, Wyoming 21-22 and South Dakota 29-32.

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The Presbyterian Lay Committee has been one of the most outspoken opponents of the proposal.

“In terms of the PCUSA’s witness to the world, this vote demonstrates a complete accommodation to the prevailing winds of our culture,” said President Carmen Fowler LaBerge in a statement on Tuesday. “Any prophetic voice that the denomination may have once had to speak truth and call people to repentance is now lost. All she can do now is echo the voices of the world for she has abandoned the clarion call to bear faithful witness to the God who has clearly spoken on this matter.”

“Again, as we said in June, ‘God will not be mocked and those who substitute their own felt desires for God’s unchangeable Truth will not be found guiltless before a holy God,'” she added.

Photo: Drama Queen/Wikipedia


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  • thoughtsfromflorida

    Isn’t it grand that we live in a nation where different faiths are allowed to operate as they fit? How wonderful to live in the US.

    • dice1984

      Grand?? They’re spitting in God’s face…. how the heck is that grand?!?!

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        You don’t think it’s grand that we have freedom of religion in the US? You’d prefer we didn’t?

      • MisterPine

        No one is spitting in God’s face. They are spitting in the face of hatred and bigotry.

  • Better AndBetter

    Awesomesauce!!!

  • dice1984

    Because spitting in God’s face is what His church is supposed to do, yeah no. No one is exempt from the consequences of their actions, no one….

    • Paul Hiett

      Well then, if God is so upset, let him handle it.

    • MisterPine

      “ALL ARE WELCOME” is spitting in God’s face? What would you prefer, “homosexuals not welcome”?

  • FoJC_Forever

    Righteousness isn’t voted upon. The human body doesn’t take a vote from all of it’s different parts to decide to remove itself from the head. Likewise, those who know Jesus do not vote to accept Sin. Those who know Jesus listen to the Holy Spirit and live by Faith by the power of the Love of God poured into their spirits, which gives them the Hope of Salvation. Those who change ‘Christian’ doctrine according to current cultural norms are merely religious and as lost as those who openly reject Jesus Christ.

    • KCR

      You are spot on. Jesus is the same today as in forever. We are the sinners, not God. God is never changing. We on the other hand, battle sin everyday. But for Grace we are saved, and ONLY if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. NOT a religion, it is FAITH.

      • MikeA43

        You fundies are just adorable

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      yeah – like all those denominations that support using electricity.

      Amish rule!

  • MisterPine

    If you are a Christian then you are religious. Christianity is a religion…that’s what my dictionary says. (Sorry this is in response to FoJC_Forever)

  • MattFCharlestonSC

    If you don’t like it then don’t be a Presbyterian. I really don’t see the problem here. Just because your denomination thinks its a sin doesn’t make it against the law for others to be okay with it.

    • Paul Hiett

      But then they can’t sit on their pedestal and remark about how everyone else is going to Hell except them.

      • MattFCharlestonSC

        Sure they can — James talks about how Catholics are going to hell all the time.

      • MattFCharlestonSC

        Oh Stuffin! I didn’t think about it, but is James Presbyterian?

        • Paul Hiett

          Ooooh, could be!

  • Nadine Faber

    Either you live by biblical principles, God’s laws or you don’t. Cannot have it both ways. You can love the sinner, but not the sin…In the bible when he stopped the people from stoning the woman for prostitution…he told her to “go and sin no more”. I think this applies here too. It is sad that the moral decay of decency and respect for traditional marriage, family, respect for life and viewing Christianity as “wrong, bias, hateful….” has come to this. Government has no moral guidelines, anything goes so our young, old, broken, lost, unemployed, the hopeless, the depressed…. have no where to go but government? Government sucks the life out of people and has gone to great lengths to punish, put down, degrade, spit on…..those who still believe strongly in the basic values, traditions and beliefs in Christianity. We need hope and respect for ourselves, others….compassion, empathy, valuing all life regardless of age or social status or religious beliefs…government is not the answer and has become a real problem which I see is creating an environment for churches like this to comply with their interpretation of accepted religious beliefs (personal and political gains through fear and intimidation).

  • Guest

    We are NOT to be yoked unequally. What does that mean? Do we abide in sin? Do we run from it? God is not a fool, God is God and I am NOT.

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      So we’re supposed to be yoked equally?

      • Nathan Z Solomon

        Sometimes people misunderstand this idea of yoke…it’s not about eggs. It’s about being tied together. Oxen are yoked when they are tied together to pull a cart or anything. They need to pull at the same pace, in the same direction…otherwise you have a broken cart or broken plow because your oxen went in two different directions. Deut. 22:10 – Don’t yoke (tie together) an ox and donkey. Why not? Because one is way stronger than the other and one is more compliant than another….it just makes sense. Likewise II Cor. 6:14 – don’t be tied together with people who don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God. It goes on to say: For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

  • Paul Hiett

    And people wonder why there are over 42,000 denominations…

    • The Lone Ranger

      But the truth is sir you don’t have to wonder ! You sir can know truth, the fact is your afraid of finding out the truth for yourself. Getting your mind off denominations and religions and looking into what this man called Jesus is all about diligently would be a good start…..
      Hebrews 11:6
      But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        you’re, not your
        .

    • The Lone Ranger

      But the truth is sir you don’t have to wonder ! You sir can know truth, the fact is your afraid of finding out the truth for yourself because once you know truth you are responsible for what it implicates. Getting your mind off denominations, religions, traditions and looking into what this man called Jesus is all about diligently, would be a good start dear sir.
      Hebrews 11:6
      But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

      • Clive Johnson

        It seems quite obvious that seeking through faith can still lead you to any number of different and conflicting denominations. Don’t you think?

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        you’re
        .

  • Kerry Hall

    Man’s laws NEVER trump GOD’s law..It’s really that simple.

    • Better AndBetter

      We are not a theocratic nation living under your religion’s law.

    • Paul Hiett

      Actually, mans law does trump any “law” from any religion here in the US.

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      And by “God’s law”, am I correct in assuming that you are referring to your interpretation of God’s law?

    • Clive Johnson

      They do in the US, and that’s a good thing.

      • Kerry Hall

        So you believe that stealing, murder, adultery, lying, etc…are good things?

        • Clive Johnson

          Where did I ever write that? You’re imaging things.

          • Kerry Hall

            The post began “Man’s laws NEVER trump GOD’s law”
            You said, “They do in the US, and that’s a good thing.”
            It looked to me as if you meant that it was good that man’s law trumped GOD’s in the US. Was I mistaken? If so I apologize.

          • Clive Johnson

            Hello,

            You read me correctly. No need for an apology, but I appreciate your considerateness.

            My real point, which I didn’t type out, is that given the widespread disagreement over what god’s law is, it’s best not to base law on this. For example, one Christian says they are-choice and another says they are anti-abortion—how are we to resolve this in a diverse democracy? I’ve seen these debates before with Bible quotes being thrown back and forth and they don’t get anywhere. Nothing is ever resolved.

            Then there’s the problem that many current ethical issues aren’t addressed in the Bible. For example, how do we decide what’s to teach in the school system? Is it personal growth and development? Vocational and job training? Education for citizenship? Etc.

            Plus, the US is a secular democracy. This doesn’t mean that Christianity isn’t in the majority. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be trying to improve values and moral behavior. It’s just that I don’t see a focus on ‘god’s laws’ to be particularly helpful.

            One aspect of that “man’s” law, or secular law, is religious neutrality. Let’s say as a Christian that you were living in a majority Jewish Orthodox area, or, how about a largely Muslim area. I doubt you’d want the curriculum in the schools to reflect religious notions with which you disagree, or local laws to reflect Islamic doctrines.

            So, in the above senses, I did intend that man’s law should trump god’s law.

            Does that clarify things, or am I still confusing both of us?

          • Kerry Hall

            Understood…

          • Kerry Hall

            In your first reply to “man’s laws never trump GOD’s laws” you replied “They do in the US, and that’s a good thing.”

          • Clive Johnson

            You must realize that at times secular law and your god’s law can overlap.

            Christianity is far from the only source of moral thought in the world.

          • Kerry Hall

            Yes, I understand that…but as a Christian, all morality stems from the the law of God. As the Creator, everything that is good comes from HIM. God wasn’t a Christian, those who follow Christ are, and Christ said that “He and the Father were one,” so when you say “your god’s law” I have to think you don’t think He’s your God too.

          • Clive Johnson

            Thank you for your response.

            You are correct in that this god is not my god. I have no belief in a god or gods. Even if I did, I’m not sure that we could derive any moral knowledge from the assumption.

  • Better AndBetter

    Oh Gaaaaarrrrryyyyyy!!! Where are you?

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      No doubt preparing for the armed rebellion he has been hinting about.

      • Paul Hiett

        I’d pay money to see that.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          It’ll probably be on FOX – you can see it for free. Maybe a new reality show: Gary’s Gang

  • TheBottomline4This

    PCUSA displeases God.

    • Paul Hiett

      Did your god say anything about it?

  • James Waters

    I am Christian and NOT Presbyterian .

    • Paul Hiett

      Not all Christians are Presbyterians. However, all Presbyterians are Christians.

      • Gary

        That is not true. Are you ignorant, or lying?

        • MikeA43

          Presbyterianism is a sect of Christianity. That is 100% true. What are you talking about, Gary?

          • Better AndBetter

            In “The World According to Gary”, you’re only christian if he says so.

          • Gary

            Christians are defined in the Bible, not by me. And the definition is not broad enough to encompass those who say a marriage does not need both a husband and a wife.

          • Better AndBetter

            Yes, Gary… we know…

            There, there… it’ll be OK…

          • MisterPine

            That is a huge pile of hateful garbage, Gary.

          • Gary

            You can prove I’m wrong. All you have to do is prove from the Bible that God approves of ssm. Can you??

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No, YOU have to prove that people who approve of same-sex marriage aren’t allowed in the tent. Or better yet, show us the Biblical definition of Christian.

          • Gary

            What reason would a Christian have for defining marriage differently than the way it is defined in the Bible?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Don’t move the goalposts.

            Now I’ll ask you again. Show me a Biblical definition of “Christian.”

          • Gary

            Since you don’t believe a thing written in the Bible, what would showing you anything from the Bible accomplish?? You would just mock it, or claim it does not mean what it says, or some make some other ignorant comment.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Not at all. This is your ballgame, played on your field, by your rules. If your book says the definition of a a Christian is somebody who opposes same-sex marriage, then I have to believe you.

            But I’m betting you haven’t answered because there is no such verse.

          • Kerry Hall

            1 Corinthians 7 [Full Chapter]

            [ Concerning Married Life ] Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. …

          • Jack Allen Jones

            Romans 10:9, 10, John 3:3-19
            Biblical definition of Christian. By the bible
            Not everyone who attends church is a Christian, but one day everyone will acknowledge God. If you don’t believe so be it, but you will one day. What if I am wrong? I have enjoyed life and had a good one, but what if you are wrong?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Now where in any of those verses does it say “…and oppose same-sex marriage?”

          • Kerry Hall

            Acts 11:26
            and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch….If you know what a disciple is you’ll have your definition of a Christian.

          • Kerry Hall

            If you are looking for specific book, chapter, and verse there is none. You have to put it together. You can start here by seeing who was called Christian first..Acts 11:26
            and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch……From there you have to go look and find out what a disciple was….Matthew 4:18
            [ Jesus Calls His First Disciples ] As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen……As you can see, it isn’t spelled out in so many words, but if you dig a little you can put it together pretty easily. A Christian could be anyone who has decided to take the steps necessary to become a follower of Christ. In other words, any sinner (which is all of us) who decides to turn his life in the opposite direction. These steps are mentioned throughout the New Testament. Anyone can become a Christian…And to give you a little insight here, the disciples that Christ chose dropped everything they were doing, some didn’t even go and tell their families and went with Jesus. So if you’re looking for a specific place to look to define a Christian, you won’t find it, but the easy answer is a follower of Christ.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “Pretty easily?” It sounds like you have to do mental gymnastics to explain what a “Christian” is! Cobbling together disparate bits and pieces of definitions from separate books, written by different people at different times, then add a hearty dose of extrapolation in order to add up to “A Christian would never support same-sex marriage?” That’s laughable.

            I can use bits and pieces of the Bible to prove ANYTHING. Especially if you throw in lots of “interpretation” for the parts that don’t add up to anything. I’m sorry, I reject this explanation as a desperate reach.

          • Kerry Hall

            You can “reject” anything you like, but it doesn’t change the truth. A Christian would never support same sex marriage any more than they should accept lying or any other sin. You are correct about being able to prove just about anything by picking and choosing verses from the Bible, but if you take it all in context it still provides the perfect way to live. All of the principles work for peoples betterment whether you believe the outcome of it all or not. All of this being said, true Christianity is something that none of are capable of practicing perfectly. It isn’t within our Nature. This is the main misconception about Christians in general is that we are still human beings and even thought we are trying to live up to something no one is capable of, we are still human and we are going to act human at times (like always). You can’t just read it and understand everything about it. It takes study and a lifetime of searching…Anything worth having has to be worked for, as they say, and living a Christian life is no different.

          • Jim

            There is no definition of “Christian” in the Bible. If you read it, you’ll find that to be true. The Bible talks defines “Disciples”, and the definition is very clear. We are all sinners, no one Sin is any greater than any other, but practicing Sinful behavior as though it’s not a Sin is where all the controversy is coming from. I was born “oriented” to be an adulterer, so is it OK if I practice adultery?…..

          • Paul Hiett

            Does your deity approve of divorce?

          • Gary

            According to the New Testament, only in cases where the husband and/or the wife commits adultery.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then where is the great Christian outcry against it?

          • Gary

            I don’t know any Christians who are for divorce. All the Christians I know think that marriage should be for life.

          • Paul Hiett

            The divorce rate for Christians is about 50%. Are you suggesting that 50% of all married Christians are committing adultery?

          • Gary

            I expect some of them are. But if so, how does that justify ssm?

          • jvansanten

            The reality, however, is sadly different. Protestant denominations all approach the average rate of divorce of the country.

            I’ve never understood why committed gay relationships were more sinful than uncommitted straight relationships.

          • Kerry Hall

            They aren’t more sinful. They are just sinful.

          • Kerry Hall

            Read John 4:4-42 about the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. Much insight can be gained here about grace and our Lord.

          • Kerry Hall

            No, but He knew it would happen. And being the God that He is, it is forgivable, no matter what side of the divorce you happen to be on. I’m proof of that one myself.

          • MisterPine

            Not my circus, not my monkeys.
            I prefer to avoid hateful religions Gary.

          • Gary

            Then you can’t prove me wrong.

          • MisterPine

            Unnecessary. Your religion is a faith-based, fear-based house of cards.

          • Gary

            Oh, I don’t think you are right about that.

          • Kerry Hall

            The religion of the world is one of the most hateful religions out there…and it has the most players.

          • Gary

            Anyone can claim they are a Christian. But not all claims are valid. Christians believe certain things. One of the things they believe is that marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife.

          • stevej777

            It’s not a sect…it’s a denomination. But being a member of a denomination does not define a Christian. You’re not French just because you live in France.

      • stevej777

        I am a Southern Baptist..and you can’t even say THAT about our members. Just because you’re a member of a church doesn’t mean you’re a Christian. The two are no more synonymous than being in a garage makes you a mechanic.

  • Brenda Golden

    This is why I am no longer Presbyterian. God’s law doesn’t change only man’s opinion. One day they will answer to God.

    • MikeA43

      “God’s law” is man’s opinion.

  • TheBBP

    The good thing is that they are openly Apostate so it can no-longer be questioned. They are now a cult and should lose their tax-exempt status like that church in Florida who was using their building for perversions.

    • Better AndBetter

      Darlin, they’re as much a tax-exempt church as yours, mosques, or other houses of worship. Your approval is not necessary. This is quite a bit different than running a night club out of your church.

  • The Lone Ranger

    One must conclude that there is spiritual wickedness in high places in the PCUSA from what they have demon strated by their vote and willingness to accept ungodliness into the Church their inability to discern good from evil. Which man received by inheritance from the first two beings in this world. May God help them to come to the knowledge of the truth is my prayer.
    Ephesians 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

  • Yeshuratnam

    God is mocked and Lucifer is elevated.

  • Nathan Z Solomon

    Phil 2:12 – “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” One of the repeated themes in this discussion is who decides God’s law, God’s desire? Well…God does. But how do we come to know that desire? Is there one and only one person who knows God’s will (i.e. It’s my way or the highway)? I don’t think so. I think that we are all responsible to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. As a group, the Presbyterian USA have decided to redefine marriage. Let them. What is germane is that I work out my salvation…knowing God will judge me all by myself. I won’t be able to look to another and say, “It was all his/her/that group’s fault” God will look at me and say, “I hold you responsible. You and you alone for your choices” So choose…and do so with God in mind. Interpret God’s Word yourself…don’t rely on someone else’s interpretation. Because in the end, it’s on you.

  • Gary

    This move was predictable. They started down this road some time back. You don’t start down that road unless you are apostate. Once they began accommodating sodomites, this was going to happen.

    • Clive Johnson

      Your error is in reducing real people to your own little category of “sodomites.” Doesn’t anything in your Christian experience tell you that you should approach other human beings the same way you want to be treated?

      • Gary

        I always do.

        • BarkingDawg

          No you don’t.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Not from Sodom, from America.

      You know, the place where all are equal, slavery is no more (well, on it’s way out), and women are not considered chattel (well, on it’s way out), with all sorts of other revisions to inappropriate ancient Biblical constrictures.
      .

  • Allan Gaylor

    pretty simple stuff, unfourtunly, they bowed to pressure, we all know what the bible says,not that hard to work out?…And i am surer there are some great presbatarians ,who follow jeseus christ as their lord and Savior, it is unfourtunate that the leadership in church well,They are wrong, just as simple as that, scarey times,bible says we might even get persecuted and killed for our faith in christ?

  • Harry Oh!

    Another one gone and good riddance. It’s time to separate the wheat from the tares. The spineless clergy running this ‘church’ should be very satisfied to know that they have unwittingly helped hasten the ‘days before Noah’.

  • Elizabeth Lorraine Mcvicker

    A real church of Christ follows the truth in the holy bible. I guess it’s another false church leading them astray. What a shame and a sign of the time.

  • Richard

    Rather than holding fast to the truth, this church is succumbing to popular opinion. Revelations has a number of lessons for this church.

  • Jan van Niekerk

    All that remains now is to see whether God will celebrate their “marriages” together with the “faith community” by bringing forth children from their sexual activities. Until then, how angry they must be that he does not do so.

  • OldArkie

    Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Well, we know that they are not teaching the word of God and are deep in sin worshiping God in vain. If they’re truly saved people them God’s hand will be on them and they will have much chastening, Hebrews 12:5-8. And if they don’t repent, confess their sins, them they may partake of the sin-unto-death, “If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.” 1 John 5:16

    If your a Christian be sure you do not support and church that worships God in vain, if you do you just might go home very early by partaking of the sin-unto-death.

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Ted R. Weiland

    What’s next? Inclusion of rapists and murderers? Why not? If these “Christians” are so intent on not being prejudiced, they are then duty bound to do the same with all capital criminals. All three (murder, rape,* and sodomy) are capital crimes according to the only Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22 & James 4:12).

    *Because, according to Exodus 21:16, kidnapping is a capital crime and because rape involves kidnapping, rape is a capital crime.

    For more on how Yahweh’s immutable moral triune moral law (His commandments, statutes, and judgments, including Exodus 21:16, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13) apply and should be implemented today, see free online book “Law and Kingdom: Their Relevance Under the New Covenant” at http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/law-kingdomFrame.html.

  • stevej777

    And they wonder why they’re declining. If you’re going to be like the world why would anyone need to be a member of the church. The Rotary club would do just as well. Can you spell “CLUELESS?”