Megachurch Leader Drops Celibacy Requirement for ‘Gay’ Members–as Long as Sex Is in ‘Marriage’

HarrellSAN FRANCISCO — The leader of a megachurch in San Francisco has announced that it will no longer require members who struggle with feelings toward the same-sex to remain celibate as long as the sexual activity is within “marriage”—an announcement that has generated disapproval from Christian leaders nationwide.

“Our pastoral practice of demanding life-long ‘celibacy,’ by which we meant that for the rest of your life you would not engage your sexual orientation in any way, was causing obvious harm and has not led to human flourishing,” Fred Harrell of City Church, the largest professing evangelical church in San Francisco, announced in a letter on Friday.

“We will no longer discriminate based on sexual orientation and demand lifelong celibacy as a precondition for joining,” he said. “For all members, regardless of sexual orientation, we will continue to expect chastity in singleness until marriage.”

City Church, a member of the Reformed Church in America, is stated to have been launched 18 years ago by the inspiration of Tim Keller’s Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City. Harrell said that during the nine-month decision-making period leading up the release of last week’s inclusion letter, he and other elders were influenced by Ken Wilson’s publication “A Letter to my Congregation: An Evangelical Pastor’s Path to Embracing People who are Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender Into the Company of Jesus.”

“The generally unintended consequence [of our celibacy policy] has been to leave many people feeling deeply damaged, distorted, unlovable, unacceptable, and perverted,” Harrell stated. “We believe the thrust and focus of the gospel is the breaking down of former boundaries of exclusion and the expanding of the welcome of Jesus to all.”

As previously reported, Wilson, leader of Vineyard Church of Ann Arbor, Mich., claimed last year that he had received a “strong nudge from Jesus” to announce his changing views on homosexuality. But not everyone agreed.

“His ‘strong nudge’ contradicts everything the Bible has to say about marriage and homosexual acts, including Jesus Himself who declared in Mark 10:6-7, ‘But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,’” Matt Trewhella, pastor of Mercy Seat Christian Church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, told Christian News Network.

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Robert Gagnon, an associate professor of the New Testament at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, made similar statements in regard to Harrell in an article released on Tuesday.

“Although the City Church letter appeals to Jesus’ mission to outcasts as a basis for jettisoning a male-female requirement for marriage, it is difficult to claim that the Jesus we encounter in Scripture would have countenanced homosexual sex in the context of a ‘marriage,'” he said.

“Jesus appealed to the two-sexes requirement for marriage (and thus for all sexual activity) given in Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 as the foundation upon which all sexual ethics must be based, including the limitation of two persons to a sexual union,” Gagnon noted.

“Just as Jesus did not reach out to exploitative tax-collectors in order to justify their exploitation of the poor, so too Jesus did not reach out to sexual sinners in order to provide a platform for impenitent sexuality,” he continued. “He reached out to both groups in order to call them to repentance so that they might inherit the very Kingdom of God that he was proclaiming. That is true love, not the impersonation of love now being peddled by City Church leadership.”

Photo: City Church San Francisco


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  • MisterPine

    Wow. Progress is slow but at least it’s happening.

    • brine

      Of course what you consider to be progress is going to be slow…God is going to allow space for repentance and the apostate church to be fully established to fulfill His ultimate glorification. But when judgment finally does fall it will be swift per His Word…Regardless of what lying man has to say on the matter in calling evil good and good evil.

      • Psygn

        I don’t believe you.

        • Carol Cantell Moorby

          The bible explains this very clearly….” For the God of this world satan has blinded them.Its spiritual blindness.” Don’t be ignorant of Satans devices.”

          • Psygn

            I’ve read the Bible in its entirety, it lacks credibility.

          • Coach

            Just because you don’t give credibility to the bible doesn’t mean it’s not credible. You’re a flawed human being, with a sinful nature, on what grounds do you have to challenge the Word of God.

          • Psygn

            Your rhetoric isn’t helping you.

          • Paul Hiett

            The same “grounds” that you use to reject all other religions but yours.

          • Clive Johnson

            If we’re all flawed, and we are, then why trust your word (no offense–you might in actuality be very trustworthy in real life) about whether the Bible is the word of a god or not?

          • Mary Taylor

            As long as the Spirit of God does not open your blind eyes, you will never understand it.

          • Better AndBetter

            Is it incapable of doing so?

          • Psygn

            More spirits and demons?

          • Susan Sennett

            You need to be seeking TRUTH in order
            to find it

          • Better AndBetter

            So, fire doesn’t burn until you burn yourself?

            Really?

            Snow isn’t cold before you feel it?

            Really?

            What kind of logic is this?

          • Psygn

            Obviously you don’t have the truth.

          • MC

            Then why are you here? What sick thrill do you get from trolling a Christian site?

          • Psygn

            Accusations and exclusionism? Why the bigoted attitude towards non-Christians?

          • MC

            Why are you here?

          • Psygn

            What does that have to do with anything?

          • MC

            Um, you’re an atheist, so what are you doing here? Why do you think your opinion matters when it comes to Christianity and the Church?

          • Psygn

            Well, aren’t you so special. Why don’t you just cut my head off or burn me at the stake?
            Your opinion is no more valid, its a non-issue.

          • MC

            Sorry, I’m not Islamic. So, what are you doing here? When it comes to Christianity and the Church, your opinions are irrelevant.

          • Psygn

            Nobody is under any obligation to explain why they are here, to you or anyone else.
            If you actually have something to say you are free to get to the point.

          • MC

            My point is this, I don’t believe in UFO’s, but I don’t go to UFO websites and tell them they don’t exist, I dont tell them their stories lack credibility. To put time and energy into something I don’t believe in and already made up my mind about would be insane. That would be a total lack of self control on my part if I kept doing it, to the point it would be a mental illness. You don’t belive, fine, let other people believe without your bullying them about their beliefs. No Christian is listening to you and you won’t change our minds. You just come off as a childish bigot bully. So, what are you doing here?

          • Psygn

            “My point is this, I don’t believe in UFO’s, but I don’t go to UFO websites and tell them they don’t exist,”

            I have been to a UFO site where I pointed out that one particular town was under a military flight zone where they train drone ‘pilots’. Many of the locals were happy for the information. I often fly a little Cessna 172 over that town.

            If no “Christian” is listening then why are you objecting to my presence with a typical demonizing ad hominem cognitive dissonance reaction?

            You come to a site that promotes itself as a “News” site welcoming open discussion then whine and cry because people who are not like you come here too. You label me an ‘atheist’ then claim I shouldn’t be here, you may have well have based it on my race, gender or being a senior citizen or any number bigoted excuses.

            I don’t discriminate against a claimed “News” site simply because it happens to be Christian.

          • MC

            Where did I say you shouldn’t be here? Show me? You can come and go as you please. I asked why you were here, what purpose are you here for. And it’s true, no Christian is listening to your opinions because these are spiritual matters and Christian matters and you’re not a Christian so your opinions are irrelevant and useless. I wouldn’t listen to a plumber when it comes to operating procedure of brain surgery so why would anyone listen to an atheist when it comes to Christian matters? It’s out of your realm, it will always be out of your realm. No crying and stomping your feet will change that fact, it would only change if you were part of the Body of Christ.

          • Psygn

            Quote= “you’re not a Christian”, ” it would only change if you were part of the Body of Christ.” =

            Why are you so intent on displaying bigotry, promoting divisionism and fostering hate with labels?

          • Better AndBetter

            The bible is a book written by men seeking to control other men.

            Nothing more.

          • Coach

            No the bible was written by men under the direction of the Holy Spirit. The ever-changing laws of our day are written by men to control other men. The bible is 2,000 years old and more relevant to today than any other book. It is the Word of God living and active.

          • Better AndBetter

            And your evidence for this “direction” is ___________________.

            Please fill in the blank.

          • Gary

            How does it advantage others when a person behaves morally?

          • Better AndBetter

            Morality is subjective, Gary… I find you wholly immoral, but you disagree.

          • Gary

            Morality is objective. You want it to be subjective because you want it to change whenever you think it should. God defines morality, not you.

          • MC

            Then why are you here? Are you here to try and control other men?

          • Clive Johnson

            I have to say, I’m so very glad I gave up the Bible and left faith behind many years ago.

          • MC

            Then why are you here on a Christian site? You’ve made up your own mind and you won’t change the mind of a Christian, so what thrill do you get from trolling?

          • Clive Johnson

            I don’t believe I’m trolling. If you look at my comments you’ll see I’m quite polite when I’m on religious sites. Why am I here? I’m here to learn, for one. I’m curious about why and how people believe. And second, I’m hoping to engage in productive dialogue while challenging questionable claims.

          • Gary

            I too am glad you did.

        • Mary Taylor

          Truth doesn’t care whether you believe it or not because it still doesn’t change the fact.

          • Psygn

            Well, how about presenting some facts instead of unsubstantiated claims.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        Yes, God’s will is slowly being implemented. But, there are still some, like you, who are denying it. Hopefully you and the others will come around before judgement day.

        • brine

          You’d better check the Book again…and try rightly dividing it next time.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “the Book”. There is no “the Book”. There may be “A” book that you have chosen to follow. But that does not make it “the” book. My beliefs are no more, nor no less, valid than yours. According to my beliefs, it is YOU who are denying the will of God, YOU who will need to seek redemption and ask forgiveness, and YOU who is going to facing some serious frowns from God upon your death if you don’t change your ways.

          • brine

            You have a god of your own making. You conform that god to your image. I would say let me know how that works out for you but I already know.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “You have a god of your own making.”

            What do you think the God of the Bible is? He is a god of the writer’s making. You have a god of other peoples’ making. The only difference is that you have chosen to believe what other people put forth regarding God.

            “I would say let me know how that works out for you but I already know.”

            So far so good!

    • Carol Cantell Moorby

      Progress only in the eyes of sinners…..it’s demonic and evil and perverted. Judgement day will prove this. I pray for all those poor unsuspecting people who have allowed a demon spirit to enter them. read the bible?Its not what I say?…it’s what God says.I’m just the messenger.

      • MisterPine

        A messenger for what? Why ever would you adopt such a hateful, judgmental religion?

        • Mary Taylor

          A messenger for the truth. As long as we proclaim it, we are not in judgment, only you for not accepting the truth.

          • Better AndBetter

            Where is the fact that backs it as “truth”?

          • Coach

            In the bible, but it’s obvious that you’re more interested in discrediting the truth than knowing it.

          • Better AndBetter

            A book written by men.

            The bible cannot be used as evidence that the bible is fact.

            Try again.

          • Psygn

            More rhetoric and no facts, why is that?

          • MisterPine

            There is nothing truthful about your monstrous message of hatred.

          • Psygn

            Authoritarian punishment-reward propaganda?

        • Coach

          MisterPine you seem to be misunderstood on what love and hate are. Love is what it takes to warn a person about danger. I tell a person not to use cocaine out of love, yet it’s called hate speech because it hurts the person’s feelings. Thank God for people who’ve loved me enough to hurt my feelings

          • Better AndBetter

            If god is all loving, where’s the danger?

            Oh… wait…

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        I pray that the demonic spirit that inhabits you will one day leave you so that you may have that burden lifted from you and see the true grace of God.

        • Psygn

          Demonic spirits? Really, Isn’t that like Voodoo?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Yes. Just like Voodoo. And who do, voodoo, like you do?

          • Paul Hiett

            You remind me of the babe.

  • Gary

    God only allows moral s-x within marriage. And God defines marriage as the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. God has provided no way for homosexuality to be moral. LOL!!!!!!

  • Carol Cantell Moorby

    End times deception……” Even the elect maybe deceived”. He needs to read Romans 1:18-32. God will NOT support this church after this contradiction of our bible.

    • Better AndBetter

      Yeah, cuz the Mormons have done SO bad…

  • TheBottomline4This

    It’s satan’s church.

  • Better AndBetter

    Awesomesauce!!! Life just KEEPS getting better and better!

    • Paul Hiett

      I can’t wait for the June meltdown.

  • Takari Mooshi

    Show me a church that does’t allow overweight (gluttonous) members.

    • NNNNNNNNNNoooClintonplz

      are you judging ppl with thyroid disorders? seriously though we need more preaching on pushing from the table. THANK YOU for pointing that out. MUCH needed.

      • Better AndBetter

        All overweight people have thyroid disorders?!

        Really?!

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          My thyroid might be starting to act up too. It gets better when I cut my caloric intake though.

    • Coach

      The issue is that they’re embracing a sinful lifestyle. I’m skinny and eat more than most overweight people. Don’t try to justify homosexuality by the fact that everyone’s not at a healthy weight.

      • Takari Mooshi

        How do you know that they are embracing homosexuality? In the letter he never said that it was not sin. Does your church “embrace” gluttony by allowing overweight members? Do you discipline members who you see eating too much at a church gathering? I’m using gluttony as a way to work through this myself. I happen to be conservative on the issue but am wondering why. Is it because I find the homosexual act disgusting? If so then I better check my love of neighbor (or enemy) and my self righteousness. It only seems right to ask ourselves why we allow others who are openly sinning (albeit less offensively to our pharisaical morality) to become members.

        • smc

          Did you read the title of the article? I am an ex-homosexual and the Lord Jesus Christ saved me FROM my sin, not IN my sin. Man doesn’t have a hell problem, he has a sin problem. This church and professing Christians DENY the power of God in salvation, exactly as predicted by the Bible. PS…the Pharisees were those who twisted scripture to fit their sin. You need to repent and believe the Gospel and stop peddling sin and denying the power of God in salvation. The majority of professing Christians will be going to hell. Read your BIBLE.

          • Better AndBetter

            So… you have no more attractions for members of the same ender?

          • Takari Mooshi

            1 John 1:8 “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” Still, I do understand your point and as I stated I am on the conservative side thinking it through – not peddling sin. I sense that this issue is upsetting to you and can see why. Peace to you.

          • lynn

            You need to read 1st Corinthians chapter number 5.

          • Takari Mooshi

            Lynn, thank you for that reference. That is very helpful.

        • MC

          Just because someone is sinning in a different way does not make the other persons less of a sin. This is not a “gotcha” game! Homosexual acts are a sin, so is gluttony, but when it comes to obesity might not have anything to do with gluttony, it could be from sickness like Prader-Willi syndrome, arthritis, or Cushing’s syndrome, by genetics, or by medications. In those cases being obese would not be a sin. Whereas homosexual acts are a choice, like a person who “chooses” to be a glutton, that’s when it’s a sin. It has nothing to do with what a person finds, “yucky”, a sin is a sin and all sin separates us from God and leads to death.

          • Takari Mooshi

            I disagree with your analysis of sin and see it as primarily a condition, not a specific act, but taking your point of view – all sin is a choice – then your pride is a choice. Yet you are allowed to be a member of a church. My question is regarding church membership and who we exclude and on what basis. For the record I’m conservative on this issue but I’m also a God fearing man who is, among other things, trying to engage Jesus’ question: Go learn what this means, I desire mercy not sacrifice.

  • NNNNNNNNNNoooClintonplz

    I guess if your church is in Sodom and Gomorrah you go with the natives. Just watch for fire and brimstone.

    • Better AndBetter

      Oooooooooo… spooky stories!

  • TheBBP

    Another cult is born. At least the apostate is up front about it so that his Bible-believing members can move on.

    • Paul Hiett

      Amazing, isn’t it, how cults are born? I mean, think about it…all it takes is a couple of people to claim something, get a few gullible people to believe it, and it just takes off.

      Theoretically, you could start a religion…er, sorry, “cult”…with 13 people, and it could eventually have over a billion followers!

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        LOL

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    Isn’t it great that we live in a nation where religious organizations are free to follow the path they choose?

  • MattFCharlestonSC

    Maybe they’re Presbyterian. I think God said it’s okay for Presbyterians to be gay this week.

  • smc

    Since most of these 501(c)3 government run facilities have sodomites and pedophiles running them, this is not surprising. I praise the Lord this is happening, because the true born-again saints of God will beat feet out of there. This is dividing the goats and the sheep. I am an ex-homosexual. When the Lord saved me He made me new, He didn’t leave me dead in trespasses and sins.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    2 Corinthians 5:17

  • smc

    Since most of these 501(c)3 government run facilities have sodomites and pedophiles running them, this is not surprising. I praise the Lord this is happening, because the true born-again saints of God will beat feet out of there. This is dividing the goats and the sheep. I am an ex-homosexual. When the Lord saved me He made me new, He didn’t leave me dead in trespasses and sins. These so-called pastors are not preaching the Gospel to the lost, they are inviting leaven into the church.

    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

    • Psygn

      So its an “us vs. them” hate and bigotry thing towards those with different opinions or beliefs.

      • Better AndBetter

        To religious types, yes.

        • smc

          No. Religious types are lost and on their way to hell.

          • Better AndBetter

            So you don’t practice a religion?

      • smc

        So stupid. Since I am an ex-homosexual means I hate them? This is such a done-to-death and meaningless phrase (hater) it has lost all meaning. Born again Christians are to preach the Gospel to the lost, not invite them to church. You won’t find that anywhere in Scripture where the lost are invited to church. The church – IN THE BIBLE- are born again believers, not a building.

        But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8 KJV

        • Better AndBetter

          Again I ask: do you still have attractions for the same gender?

          • smc

            No. The Lord set me free. GLORY TO GOD!

            If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
            John 8:36

          • Better AndBetter

            They can test for that. I’ll happily pay all bills.

            I don’t believe you. The test will prove conclusively.

            Got the testicular fortitude to take it?

        • Psygn

          I don’t see what your sexual preference has to do with anything.
          My issue is with your rejoicing over pedophile activity and condemnation those of who don’t follow your totalitarian ideology.

          • D. Kirkpat

            Interesting to see you call people with understanding…totalitarians. It’s hard to talk to people when their minds are closed. I have a brother like this. He refuses to hear sound truh and reverts labeling, name calling and other words of hate.

            By the way light and darkness never mixes well, however the light always trump darkness. It’s a choice by the way, to accept truth or reject truth. Many will be lost in the end. Guess what? Everyone who is lost will be lost because they choose to be lost. Nothing is forced on anyone when you look at things closely. All are faced with challenges by the way, however we each have to choose between good and evil in the end. Everyone is tested daily, and choices have to be made.

        • Clive Johnson

          Where is this lake?

          • Harry Oh!

            Break out the asbestos dude, you’re gonna need it.

          • Clive Johnson

            So, I’m assuming you believe in this place called hell. Where is it exactly? And how do you know?

          • Better AndBetter

            Michigan. It’s on Google Maps.

          • Clive Johnson

            Gary, Indiana, is another candidate.

          • Better AndBetter
          • Harry Oh!

            Hell is locked from the inside. If you really wanna find out, either read the Bible or wait until you die.

          • Clive Johnson

            How would you know, and what does that even mean?

            Where–that is my question–is this place called hell?

          • MC

            Hell is most likely in the spiritual realm, the location is irrelevant.

          • Clive Johnson

            The “spiritual realm.” What is this actually? How does it related to the standard model of physics, for instance? What is its ultimate substance? How does it interact with the universe as we know it?

          • MC

            The spiritual realm could be another dimension outside our realm, outside our space and time. What it’s made up of or how it interacts, if at all, with this reality science will never know, nor is it relevant, nor is the knowledge/or lack of it, essential for following Christ Jesus for salvation.

          • Clive Johnson

            Its relevance is that if people continue to talk about an alleged spiritual realm and are unable to provide any convincing evidence of it, let alone any theory, the scientific minded person would be justified in rejecting it.

            Another point of relevance connects with what you just wrote about Jesus. If Jesus still exists, then he must exist in some other dimension. But if there’s no reason to think that disembodied minds can exist, let alone exist in another dimension that we have insufficient knowledge of, then this will be enough for many people (myself included) to doubt that Jesus still lives.

          • MC

            No, it’s actually not relevant nor is it required for salvation. You can’t prove that the spiritual realm doesn’t exist as much as I can prove it does using the scientific method. There is no test, nor will there ever be, that can test or observe the spiritual realm. Lacking knowledge of something does not = “it does not exist”. Now of course you can reject the hypothesis, but you are rejecting it, not solely because of lack of evidence (because it’s outside the scientific method), but out of bias. Either way, you reject it but you haven’t refuted it.

          • Clive Johnson

            Proof of the supernatural, of the Christian story about Jesus, etc., is indeed not required for salvation from what I was taught. However, the point is that without being able to provide a plausible account of why these things are true or exist, salvation won’t even be an option for an increasing number of people because they justifiably reject claims for which there is no good evidence.

            I agree that if we don’t have knowledge of something that is not equivalent to it not existing. However, if we consider:

            1. There’s no worldwide human consensus that any god exists or that there is any supernatural realm. If confronted with unambiguous evidence, most people will accept the reality of something. This is far from the case with claims about gods.

            2. On top of this problem is yet another: Despite the lack of objective observational evidence for any of the many supernatural conceptions of god, Christianity knows that one of them is actually correct and the others false. It even presumes to be able to answer questions like: Does this god know everything, or just the set of knowledge = X? Yet it can’t point to any evidence for such beliefs.

            3. Even if a god does exist, this doesn’t mean it must be supernatural. After all, anything supernatural might very well be natural and materialistic but at a level we don’t yet understand.

            4. There’s no evidence from any science that allows for human-like intelligence to exist without matter and energy. And yet this is what Christianity often claims.

            Etc., etc.

            So, while the supernatural may not have been refuted, it doesn’t follow that one can pin high hopes on the scant evidence we have, at least in my view.

          • GibbyD

            ” Following Christ” will not save you. Jesus said , ” Ye MUST be born again” ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23)KJB. To be born again, you must, ” obey from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto you” ( Romans 6:17)KJB. If you have heard the Gospel —>”For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures” ( I Corinthians 15:3,4)KJB , then the response that can save you is “.. repentance toward God and faith toward the LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21 )KJB. ( 2 Corinthians 5:17; Acts 16:31; I John 5:13; Philippians 1:6)KJB

          • MC

            I know this but for time constraints I went with “following”, or a “follower”.

          • Faithwalker

            Even demons acknowledge Jesus and hell.

          • Clive Johnson

            Um, if one already doubts the existence of demons and hell, then citing them as testimony for Jesus isn’t particularly effective.

          • Faithwalker

            You have the right to not believe in the supernatural, however your denial does not negate its existence. But, are you absolutely positively sure, without a shadow of doubt that Jesus (light) and Satan, evil/darkness) do not exist?

          • Clive Johnson

            If Jesus even existed, which isn’t certain, he had a body. If he had a body, he died. And if he died he’s still dead. I’m basically certain of this, but would be quick to change my mind if I saw evidence otherwise.

            What is Satan? A name–that’s it. Human culture has produced many names for an imagined realm of beings that oppose the good, right and just. Satan is merely one of them from the Christian tradition. I see no reason why this name or its tradition has any more validity than any other.

            Have you ever asked yourself where the name Satan comes from? What other cultures believe about a dark supernatural realm? Do you actually believe that there’s a male demon living somewhere with a name tag that says Satan on it? That this being has existed for all time in recorded history and that all humans needed to do was simply notice it and record it? The world doesn’t work that way. The history of the concept of Satan doesn’t work that way.

          • Faithwalker

            Okay let’s overlay the name of satan with evil. Do you believe that evil exist, and where do your think it comes from?

          • wandakate

            Unfortunately many people will be going there when it’s over but they won’t have any way out. It’s a one way trip.
            For those fortunate enough by their faith and the grace of GOD to go to Heaven (the Kingdom of GOD), they aren’t going to want to come back to earth. They will want to remain there forever. How we live this life will determine which place we spend our eternity.

          • lynn

            In the center of the earth.

          • Clive Johnson

            You’re serious?

          • lynn

            Num 16:30-33 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground cleaved asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

            They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

            Hell is in the center of this earth.

            In the Old Testament we read that both Hell and Paradise were located in the center of the earth.

            The spirits of all mankind went to the center of the earth at death, and they remained there until Jesus
            was crucified and rose again.

            Isa 5:11-14 Woe unto them that rise up early in the
            morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD,neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
            because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and
            their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

            Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

            Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

            Hell would have to be below the foundations of the mountains.

            Eze 26:19-20 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that arenot inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee; When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not
            inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

          • Clive Johnson

            “Hell is in the center of this earth.”

            You do know, I trust, that geologists already have a reasonably good idea as to what is at the center of the earth. From wikipedia: “It is believed to consist primarily of an iron–nickel alloy and to be approximately the same temperature as the surface of the Sun: approximately 5700 K (5400 °C).”

            “The spirits of all mankind went to the center of the earth at death, and they remained there until Jesus

            was crucified and rose again.”

            So, if these so-called “spirits” could actually reach the center of the earth, then presumably they are unaffected at all by matter. And if they are unaffected by matter, then how could the center of the earth be at all hot or in any way a deprivation?

          • wandakate

            Earth opened up and they were swallowed up. That sounds like sinkholes. They have them in Florida as much of Fl. sits on limestone which is like swiss cheese. A man was in his bedroom and the whole bedroom swallowed him up and he was never recovered, gone forever. Happened for real in Florida.

          • D. Kirkpat

            Lake of fire. Not in the center of the earth. It’s an eternal lake God will use to destroy all those who reject Christ in the end of days.

          • Clive Johnson

            Where is Christ right now?

        • Harry Oh!

          Dang, where did you come from? You are sorely needed here to provide clear, rational thinking for the confused, lost souls that troll this site.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Well-said. God bless you for your courage and strength!

          • wandakate

            And when they know the truth, the truth will set them free. Satan has them all in bondage on their way to his kingdom, the kingdom of hell.
            With confession, repentance and obedience they can be set free. Then they will forsake their sins and live for the LORD, while they still can.
            We have 2 choices, heaven and hell…there is no way out of hell, it’s a one way trip.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Beautifully and accurately put, Wandakate!

      • MC

        I really wish you knew the definition of, “Irony” was because your post is dripping with it.

      • D. Kirkpat

        We can hate the sin and behavior completely. We can also judge it based on the word of God. Those choosing evil will always seek to distort the truth and will label the opposition as being bigots and so on. This is an age old tactic for generations. Those in the dark will always use words of spite when it comes to truth and wisdom backed by God’s judgment. You are correct it does boil down to picking sides when it comes to good and evil, moral and immoral. One has to ultimately choose a side in the end. It’s age old battle that is coming to a conclusion. The Bible clearly reveals the ultimate outcome.

    • Paul Hiett

      Ex-homosexual…who then turns around and labels other homosexuals as being “sodomites” and “pedophiles”.

      You’re a liar. Ex-homosexual…give me break.

      • Better AndBetter

        They can test for that in arousal patterns.

        I’ll pay.

      • smc

        No. I am not a liar. I have been set free by the Lord Jesus Christ. You don’t believe in a Gospel that changes someone. I do. I am living proof. And there are thousands of us being saved every day. Homosexuality is not the only sin the Lord delivered me from. <3

        • Better AndBetter

          You’re only living proof if you PROVE it.

          Your word proves nothing.

          • smc

            Judgment day is fast approaching. Time to repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The problem with government churches is they don’t teach and don’t believe the Bible. The Bible stands against every last one of them. Modern churches teach that one can be a rapist and a Christian, a homosexual and a Christian, a murderer and a Christian. That is NOT what the Bible teaches. Jesus Christ saves you FROM sin, not IN sin. Good day.

          • Better AndBetter

            Gobbledy Gook…

            Prove it. If you cannot, it is hearsay, and all your babbling about gods won’t change anything.

            Good day.

          • Richard

            Your denying them doesn’t disprove them or remove their reality.

            You’ll get your full proof in time.

          • Better AndBetter

            You’re not paying attention.

            The “proof” requested is that your deity stripped him of all attractions to the same gender.

            Yet he’s unwilling to undergo testing to prove it.

            He’s lying.

          • GibbyD

            “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:17)KJB. Jesus said , ” Ye MUST be born again” ( I Peter 1:23; John 3:3)KJB In response to the Gospel ( I Corinthians 15:3,4)KJB, you need , “..repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21 )KJB.

          • Psygn

            non-sequitur.

          • wandakate

            When people are “really truly” saved, they won’t have the desire to do any of these things. The HOLY SPIRIT takes over inside the person’s spirit and all the old things pass away and all the new things come in. He takes away the spiritual blindfold and people are then able to see the light. They are able then to discern spiritual things instead of carnal things.
            They are then in the world, BUT not of the world.

        • Paul Hiett

          Sure pal…just like all those Christians who claim they used to be atheist.

          You were no more a homosexual than the Pope is Muslim. I’ve met your type before. You claim to have been a homosexual in order to try and generate more sympathy and pats on the back. Seen it way too many times already.

          Just be proud of your Christianity, rather that constantly pointing out your miraculous conversion.

          • smc

            Since you cannot have a rational conversation, this one is over. Judgment day is fast approaching. Time to repent and believe the Gospel!!

          • Better AndBetter

            It’s perfectly rational.

            Yours, however, takes a LARGE grain of salt to get down.

          • DJoy

            Better and Better At least you have acknowledged the person is being light and salt ~ for some their salt has lost all flavor ~and you also are acknowledging that it is hard to swallow suggesting you just might still have a mustard seed of faith left in you to believe G-d knows what he is talking about when he says men should not lie with men and women should not lie with women (in a sexual way). He loves us and He wants us to have sound minds and hearts like His.

          • wandakate

            Its a sin and an abomination to the LORD. Homosexuals according to scripture will not enter the Kingdom of GOD. No sin will be there, not that sin or any other sin.
            Confess, repent and forsake the sin and that will set the record straight. We must obey the LORD.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “He”?

            Why do you anthropomorphize your G-d?
            .

          • DJoy

            Because he calls himself Father.

          • DJoy

            He is a living G-d ~ He has human characteristics ~ We were made in the likeness of His Image ~ His son was made man ~ We will be like Him in eternity ~ He loves, We feel His compassion through HIs Holy Spirit, He communicates through His Holy Spirit, He comforts through His Holy Spirit, He walks, He talks, He hears, He see’s, He creates, He even weeps ~ How do I know? Because the words he had man write down for us to read tell me so and I have a relationship with Him from my soul, mind and spirit. He is obviously not the kind of god you think of when you think of worshipping a god (an inanimate object that is put on shelf and bowed to).

          • Marvels of life

            God is spelled God. There is no – in the middle of the word.

          • Paul Hiett

            Care to link a picture of you and your boyfriend from when you were “gay”?

          • lynn

            Can’t stand it can you Paul???

          • MC

            “Sure pal…just like all those Christians who claim they used to be atheist.”

            Do you think people are born Christians? Do you also dismiss the fact that there are atheists who used to be Christians? According to your logic, or lack thereof, all atheists who used to be Christians are still Christians.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, he’s talking about liars.
            .

          • MC

            What Christians are pretending to be atheists, what are their names?

          • Tim Bushong

            That looks like fun—defining a thing out of existence so that your point stands. Cool—can I play too?

          • Beleaguered

            I was an atheist fifty one years

          • DJoy

            I always wondered why people get upset when other people have a testimony of G-d’s greatness and evidence of His power and glory in man’s lives. It seems that you want the same kind of experience so you yourself can get some attention ~ G-d knows whether we do it for attention or not, but He also wants us to proclaim from the mountain tops His great deeds. Not because he is narcisstic or greedy (like those who want attention for it) but because He wants people to know and believe He is who He says He is. It has power when told to the right person who has faith to believe and be encouraged by it.

          • wandakate

            Encouragement is wonderful. JESUS said we must not deny him and we must let others know what He has done for us…What is in you is greater than what is in the world. I think there may be other gay people out there who want to come out of it but satan has them in bondage…He is proof that it can happen with prayer and an open heart and willingness to do it.

          • wandakate

            NO, he doesn’t need to do that. It was JESUS who came to set the captives free and he sat him free and he now has a better life that is more pleasing to GOD than the one that was leading him to hell’s gates.
            JESUS said, “If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my FATHER which is in Heaven”. JESUS didn’t deny him and he is not to deny JESUS. He has a good testimony and should keep it…Don’t discourage anybody from telling it like it is. The truth will set you free.

          • hanoverboxer

            Are you kidding? A guy who has been heterosexual his whole life going around claiming to have been gay in the past, in order to score some brownie points with Christians? That is the single most crackpot notion I’ve ever heard an anti-Christian suggest.

        • MisterPine

          Science tells us that our sexuality cannot be altered, so how is it that you managed the impossible?

          • Richard

            No it doesn’t. As I pointed out to you a day of so ago, science show the exact opposite of your claim. Quit deceiving yourself and own up to the truth.

          • MisterPine

            No, you have been told that you were posting outdated information as well as junk science from discredited Christian bigots. Get information from good an reliable sources like the American Psychological Association,

          • Tim Bushong

            Yeah–the APA–that objective and unbiased group that conveniently removed homosexuality from their list of sexual aberrations back in 1973 without a shred of scientific rationale for doing so.

          • MisterPine

            Yeah, much better that they use ancient data and keep gay people in the stone ages.

      • Harry Oh!

        You too can be delivered from your mental prison. Then you can find happiness as well as better things to do than stalk Christian websites spewing your confused views.

      • MC

        “You’re a liar. Ex-homosexual…give me break.”

        Um, you do know that there is a movement in the LGBTP community called, “Queer By Choice”, right? You can google their website.

        • GibbyD

          “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” ( I Corinthians 5:17)KJB. If someone can become a child of God who was once a ex-serial killer such as David Berkowitz (son of sam), then The LORD Jesus can surely also convert a homosexual and give that person a brand new heart and cause them to, “set their affections on things above, not on things on the earth” ( Colossians 3:2,3)KJB. http://www.cbn.com/700club/scottross/interviews/sonofsam.aspx

          • MC

            Again, I know this. You’re preaching to the choir.

          • GibbyD

            I did not notice the quotation marks . I thought you were making the initial statement.

        • wandakate

          Really, well we do all have a “choice”, that’s for sure. Hell is also a choice, satan and the demons are waiting, they would love to have you. The more they have the better it will be.
          Heaven is also a choice, and it’s eternity will be one million times better than an eternity in the pits of hell.
          GOD doesn’t send anybody to hell, they send themselves.

          • MC

            I know this, you’re preaching to the choir.

      • Richard

        We’ve already had this discussion. There are thousands of ex-gays. Denying that fact doesn’t negate it. Time to replace your misconception with the truth.

    • OldArkie

      No doubt, when one is truly saved, he becomes a new man, Col 3:10, and with his faith upon Jesus, he can do anything, “I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13 Yet there’s many that do not believe the Holy Scriptures nor God’s promises.

    • wandakate

      PTL and I’m sure you are happy in your new faith and life. All the new is with you now so it can be done. They are saying they are born like that b/c they don’t want to give it up. It’s the lust of the flesh and satan is behind it and loves every second of it.
      I think this sort of dividing the sheep from the goats will continue in various aspects of humanity. GOD is doing a mighty work all over the world. We will see more and more of what he is doing as it happens.

  • http://www.FascistDykeMotors.com/ Katy

    Seems to be an unfinished thought at the end of that first paragraph…

  • Allan Gaylor

    Well, intersting times, god wont be mocked bye me or mega churches,

    • Better AndBetter

      So… what has he done to other nations with gay marriage?

      • Richard

        Everyone’s time is coming. Just because God hasn’t acted yet (because of his patience and mercy) doesn’t mean justice is not coming. It just means God has decided that this isn’t the time…yet!

        God always does what he says he does. It’s never a matter of if, but always when (there are over 2000 fulfilled prophecies in the Bible that clearly demonstrate he does what he says he does…and every time).

        • Better AndBetter

          Meh… there is nothing in the world that supports that notion.

          • Richard

            Actually there is. The Bible is a proven historical document. The Bible contains thousands of predictive and fulfilled prophecies. If you don’t believe they are true, you’ll need to disprove them, and not just assert that they are false. Can you?

    • Psygn

      Meaningless rhetoric is boring.

  • Sunny

    help us Jesus. Please come quickly.

    • Better AndBetter

      Get him a towel.

      • Sunny

        who?

  • FoJC_Forever

    False religion always compromises with worldly culture. The world is changing into the world which will receive the Antichrist. The Antichrist will not claim to be antichrist, but will be worshiped and adored as a god or god-like. The acceptance of homosexuality by those who claim to be Christian is just one stone in the False Temple.

    • Paul Hiett

      2015 years and counting. I wouldn’t get my hopes up too high if I were you.

  • tomcfuller

    And another “church” bites the dust. Good thing is, the Bible says this will happen, many places. I believe the individuals who will experience God’s harshest judgments will be priestly types–clergy–who have been entrusted with proclaiming and defending the Scriptures, who renege and tell people it’s not true. These are modern-day Gnostics who imagine themselves erudite, but who, actually, are common and sold-out to the world. Only God knows how many people they mislead into harm by their personal influence. Scripture says they will be doing this. Even they prove the Scriptures true. They are playing the roles of the false prophets and fools, minions of the antichrist, whom Scripture has warned us about, in this Script the Lord wrote aeons ago.

    “The time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and discharge all the duties of your ministry.” (II Tim. 4:3-5)

    • Paul Hiett

      Or maybe…just maybe…they’re following Gods word?

      Romans 13:10, perhaps?

      • Gary

        No. God does not require Christians to obey immoral laws. Instead, God requires that the laws be moral.

        • Better AndBetter

          Nor does civil law need to obey your deity. You’re so cute!

          • Gary

            Lawmakers who make immoral laws will be judged and punished by God for doing wrong.

          • Better AndBetter

            Ooooo… spooky!

          • Gary

            The day will come when you will be terrified.

          • Better AndBetter

            So says the myth.

          • Richard

            Do you have proof for your assertion that God is a myth?

            Asserting something doesn’t make it true unless you can prove it. Can you?

      • tomcfuller

        “It can’t be wrong, when it feels so right.” (Debbie Boone)

  • MC

    Another “pastor” who’s leading a group of people into perpetual sin and destruction.

  • Dont be Deceived

    King James Bible
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  • Dont be Deceived

    And God warns all those who simply
    “approve of” these things . . .
    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
    against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . .
    For even their women exchanged the natural use
    for what is against nature (lesbianism).
    Likewise also the men, leaving
    the natural use of the woman, burning in their lust for one
    another, men with men committing what
    is shameful (homosexuality) . . .that those who practice these
    things are worthy of death (Hell),and not only those who do the
    same but also those who approveof those who practice them!”
    (Romans 1:18, 26, 27, 32)

    • Psygn

      That sounds so militant.

      • Richard

        If you think that is harsh, you won’t like judgement day and most certainly not what follows.

        • Psygn

          Is this the the kind of sick propaganda you tell your children?
          Authoritarian fear-threat conditioning.

          • Richard

            Don’t like the truth? Do you lie to your children to protect their feelings?

            What’s more loving, telling them the truth so they can be fairly warned, or lying to them and them finding out it’s too late?

          • Psygn

            You haven’t demonstrated any truth.

          • Richard

            Not according to your opinion. But personal opinions aren’t truth.

  • Dont be Deceived

    “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.
    It is an abomination.”(Leviticus 18:22)

  • Dont be Deceived

    “If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman,
    both of them have committed an abomination.
    They shall surely be put to death.
    Their blood shall be upon them.”
    (Leviticus 20:13)

  • Dont be Deceived

    God loves the sinner but hates the sin

    • Psygn

      “hate”?

      • Richard

        Hate the sin.

  • Darby C. Reger

    I agree that Jesus probably would give him a ‘strong nudge’ to reveal his heretical views, so the true believers in God and His Word could flee from him and his teachings.

  • Kevvy G.

    Another apostate church turning away from the gospel so members can feel good in their sin. This is the beginning of the end. Come Lord Jesus come.

    • Paul Hiett

      Ever read Romans 13:10?

      • Richard

        Love the sinner but hate the sin. God never said we should condone sin.

        You accuse people of cherry-picking verses. You should listen to your own accusation.

      • Gary

        Ever read Ephesians 5:11?

        • Paul Hiett

          Isn’t it nice how the BIble has so many contradictory verses that allow you to pick and choose who you want to hate?

          • Richard

            Not contradictory when taken as a whole. Your analogy is like saying “I’m going to work” and when done work and say “I’m coming home” is contradictory.

    • MisterPine

      When you say “apostate”, don’t you in fact mean “all the churches that aren’t mine”?

  • Richard

    Atheists are great at making unproven assertions. Unless they can prove their assertions true, they are false. But this isn’t surprising, since atheists will believe most things without actually evaluating them or having any evidence to support their beliefs and claims.

    Atheists have great faith in their unproven assertions and opinions.

    • Paul Hiett

      You do realize that your claim works both ways, right? Unless you can prove your assertions true, they are false.

      These are your words.

      • Richard

        Not at all. As I’ve said to you many times before, God is already established as history. Equating God to merely an assertion betrays the historical record and your assertion. Unless you can prove the historical record wrong. Can you?

        Otherwise, you make my point that yours is just an unproven opinionated assertion.

        • Paul Hiett

          Claiming that your choice of a deity is real because you think there’s some kind of historical record is beyond ludicrous. It reeks of nothing more than ignorant, blind faith.

          The funny thing is, you keep waffling back and forth on what is required. In your first statement, you claim that if an assertion can’t be proven, it must be true. Then you claim that if an assertion can’t be proven false, it must be true. For whatever reason, you don’t see the error in your logic, despite everyone else pointing it out to you.

          You can’t prove your god is real. You simply can’t do it. No one can. If anyone could, it would have already been done and whatever religion did it would be the only religion left on the planet.

          Plain and simple, there is no historical record of your choice of a deity. What you, and most of your fellow Christians, don’t understand is that the Bible is the claim, not the proof. I doubt you’ll understand what that means though, since all you do is point to the Bible as if doing so somehow means it’s a fact.

          • Richard

            “you think there’s some kind of historical record is beyond ludicrous.”

            Not think. It is a matter of the historical record.

            God said Christ (who is God in the flesh) would come. He did!

            Both the OT and NT writers attest to the predictions of his coming and his arrival. These are a matter of Jewish and Christian history.

            In addition to the 40 writers (who wrote over almost two thousand years), there are non biblical writers who attest to the reality of Christ. A person already gave you this list:

            Thallus (52AD)
            Tacitus (56-120AD)
            Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
            Phlegon (80-140AD)
            Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
            Suetonius (69-140AD)
            Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
            Celsus (175AD)
            Josephus (37-101AD)
            Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
            The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)

            To assert there no historical evidence is ludicrous and flat out wrong.

            To continue to assert there is no evidence is ignorant of the facts and of history.

            BTW, did you know that many other cultures supplement their histories by using the Biblical record? If the Bible is inaccurate, you can’t believe many of the histories at that time.

            I understand you speak from ignorance on the subject, but it also appears you are hard of learning.

          • Nhdriver

            Any person who has ever walked the earth and worshiped a God believed that they and they alone new the answer and had the one true God. I vote for Ra. At least he keeps me warm.

          • Richard

            Have you seen any other god come to earth and be written about as fact by respected historian sources?

    • Psygn

      Projection fallacy?

      • Richard

        Absolute truth.

    • SFBruce

      “Atheists have great faith in their unproven assertions and opinions.”

      You may think you’re characterizing atheism, but you’re actually providing a definition of faith. I have no particular beef with Christians and believers of other faith traditions, but the very nature of faith is a belief in the unproven (and generally unprovable). As Paul said, “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

      • Richard

        Faith: complete trust or confidence in someone or something; a strongly held belief or theory

        It can include believing in things not definitively proven.

        In all of the above definitions, atheism – the belief that God is not real – requires faith since no one can prove God does not exist. In this case, atheists are putting all of their trust in their opinion that God is not real.

        In the absence of any evidence to prove God is not real, atheists have complete blind faith.

        • SFBruce

          I agree that it’s not possible to prove either the existence or the non-existence of God, but to suggest there’s no evidence to suggest there is no God is nonsense. We live in a world where terrible things happen to good people. Thousands of innocent children suffer hunger and all kinds of harms, just as one example. Don’t get me wrong, I have no interest in trying to talk you out of your faith in God, but to suggest that atheism is the choice of the ignorant doesn’t stand up.

          • Richard

            Are you blaming God for all the evils of the world? Or are you saying, if there was a God, he wouldn’t allow all of this evil to occur?

            But this isn’t a God issue. This is an understanding issue that you have about God. If you expect God would be demonstrated by eliminating all of the evils of this world, your understanding needs work, not that God doesn’t exist.

        • Paul Hiett

          Do you not know that atheists don’t just disbelieve that your deity is not real, we don’t believe in any of them. You act like an atheist just picks your deity to not believe in.

          I don’t think you really understand this.

          Also, in the absence of any evidence to prove God IS real, Christians have complete blind faith.

          • Richard

            I understand perfectly well. You don’t. To believe something is true – that there aren’t any gods, including the Christian God – requires faith since you don’t have any evidence to support your belief.

            It’s not about absence of evidence, because there is plenty of evidence. For atheists it’s denying the evidence and claiming it’s absent.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s just a belief…call it faith if you must. Based on the absence of any evidence for any deity, I simply choose not to believe that they exist.

            And likewise, you have no evidence to support your claim of the positive.

            Religious beliefs, Richard, have never been based on facts.

  • Nhdriver

    All I see here are a bunch of people who are upset that someone they consider to be inferior is now being treated as an equal. This is the cry of the bigot and fanatic since time began.

    • Richard

      It’s not about being inferior. It’s about what is true and false.

      • Paul Hiett

        I laugh at the irony of your statement regarding religion.

        • Richard

          You can. That’s your choice. But that doesn’t mean my statement is wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            When it comes to religion, there is no such thing as “true” and “false”.

          • Richard

            Yes, there is. You can determine truth by the evidence. Things that are true remain true. Things that are false invariably demonstrate themselves as such. But to determine the difference, a person needs to evaluate the actual aspects, not just assume based on personal opinion and preferences.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s not an assumption. You only have the Bible to go off of. There’s no truth in it, just stories that require you to have faith to believe them. At that point, it’s just an opinion you have that it’s true. It’s just an opinion that I have that it’s false.

            Opinions don’t make something true or false.

          • Richard

            “You only have the Bible to go off of.”

            The Bible is one evidence, and there are many others.

            “There’s no truth in it”

            As I mentioned in another comment, many cultures at that time moral from the biblical record to supplement their own. If the Bible wasn’t true, then why would other cultures include the biblical record as part of their history?

            Here again your comment is a baseless assertion disproven by history in fact.

            Atheists have nothing to go off of. Their faith is based on an opinion only. And as you can see, your opinion is frequently wrong.

          • Paul Hiett

            What makes you think the Bible is part of the historical record of any society other than Jewish? The Native Americans don’t mention it. The Indians don’t mention it. Nor do the Aboriginals of Australia, the Norsemen, the English, the Danes, the Asians, the Aztecs, the Incas, the Mayans…what societies are you referring to, exactly?

            And once again I point out the fact that there is no corroborating evidence to support any of the stories in the Bible. There is no evidence of a Flood, there is no evidence that Jews were ever slaves in Egypt, there is no evidence to support Jesus coming back from the dead (although based on reading the Bible you’d think it was common place back then). Outside of the Bible, there is no such evidence to support the claims that the Bible made.

            Belief is not proof, Richard. Never has been, never will be.

          • Richard

            “What makes you think the Bible is part of the historical record of any society other than Jewish?”

            A study of history! I said many other cultures at that time borrowed from the biblical record to supplement their own histories.

            “And once again I point out the fact that there is no corroborating evidence to support any of the stories in the Bible”

            Here is an example of how atheists make dogmatic unproven assertions assuming they are true.

            A study of history at that time shows that many of the cultures interacted with the Jews and noted many of the main battles and victories that occurred at that time. If you check in Egyptian history and Babylonian history you’ll find archaeological artifacts that support the biblical record.

            One example of this is up until recently, no one believed Pontius Pilate was a real person. Since the NT, critics said the Bible made him up since he was only mentioned in the Bible. But in 1961, an inscription was found that said, “Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judea, has presented the Tiberium to the Caesareans.” This discovery by Dr. Antonio Frova put the doubt to rest.

            This is one example of hundreds.

            To say nothing in the Bible is true is completely wrong and false.

            The issue with most atheists is that they think they know what is true and false, yet they haven’t taken any time to actually find out. Again, this is a good example of how they make an unproven assertion without even checking to make sure it’s true.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, Richard, Pontius was real. I’d even probably say Jesus was a real person. Son of a deity? Nope…sorry, there’s nothing to support that argument.

            Also, yes, there are societies in that small part of the world in which the Bible is party of their religious history. It ends there though. There’s no Bible mentioned anywhere else in the world other than that one small part of the world.

            The “morals” you speak of have been present in every society around the world for as long as man has been recording his history. The Bible didn’t even exist at the time…case in point, Roman society, most advance society in the world at that time, and we wouldn’t duplicate their accomplishments for centuries. Yet, they didn’t have the Bible to have laws against killing, stealing, etc.

            How did they get those morals without the Bible?

          • Richard

            You missed the point. You said nothing in the Bible is true. I gave you one example. There are hundreds more. Will you stop saying nothing in the Bible is true?

          • Paul Hiett

            The stories, Richard, the stories. Pay attention. The Flood, Exodus, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus being raised from the dead…these are the things that didn’t happen.

          • Richard

            Just like many histories, we can’t prove what we don’t have evidence of today. But the ones we do have evidence for have all been proven true, including the Israelites in Egypt and the 10 plagues:

            Israelites in Eqypt:

            In 1446 BC (at the time of the Exodus), pyramids were made out of mud and straw.

            Sir Flinders Petrie, a British archaeologist and Egyptologist, discovered the earliest known Egyptian reference to Israel on the stela of Merneptah, king of ancient Egypt from 1213 to 1204 BCE.

            He also discovered a semitic slave town at the base of Senrusret II’s pyramid, which is made of mud and brick, that has evidence of semitic slaves making these mud and straw bricks. The other interesting thing is that he also discovered everyday semitic materials but nothing valuable, but not much of significance, as it looked like the Israelites took everything with them, and in a hurry.

            He also found evidence of a mass grave with skeletons of babies which might also corroborate the infanticide at that time.

            Inscriptions that Petrie found on the Sinai Peninsula represented an intermediate stage (not later than 1500 BCE) of written communication between Egyptian hieroglyphics and the Semitic alphabet.

            The 10 Plagues:

            Impuwer Papyrus – talks about a plague that hit Egypt, in which six of the ten plagues are mentioned. This is a non Biblical Egyptian account of the ten plagues.

            Just because we don’t have evidence of some of the accounts in the Bible, doesn’t mean the events didn’t happen. It just means we don’t have evidence of them as of yet.

            I could list many many more, but I think you get the point that your assumption that the stories aren’t true is actually a miss assumption on your part.

          • Paul Hiett

            I hate to break it to you, but Israelites didn’t appear in the archeological record on the Merneptah
            Stele until between 1208-3 BCE, right at the end of the Bronze Age.

            Sorry, but the facts simply don’t support the claim of the Bible. No archaeologist has ever found anything to support it, despite how hard they’ve looked. Simply put, the Jews, in large numbers, were never slaves in Egypt. The facts clearly and unequivocally support this.

          • Richard

            Once again you have your facts wrong. The Israelites were in Egypt long before 1200 BC and left Egypt at least 200 years previous. The Stele talks about Egypt’s military encounter with Israel when Israel had already established its own country.

            Did you disregard the papyrus?

            You might find this article on the flood interesting:

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/evidence-noahs-flood-ark-real-robert-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html

    • Gary

      Homosexuals are perverts. That means they are inferior.

      • Paul Hiett

        Out of curiosity, are you a member of the WBC?

        • Gary

          I am not a member of anything with those initials.

          • Paul Hiett

            Pretty sure they’d love you.

          • Gary

            Who are they?

          • Paul Hiett

            Westboro Baptist Church

  • http://reality-bytes.hubpages.com/hub/Who-Is-The-Rothschild-Family William Rothschild

    Just another apostate church continuing its’ downward spiral to hell.

  • Rev Donald Spitz

    Unrepentant homosexuals are doomed to the eternal fires of hell, just like anyone else who continues in their unrepentant sins;

  • http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/ Ted R. Weiland

    What’s next? Inclusion of rapists and murderers? Why not? If these “Christians” are so intent on not being prejudiced, they are then duty bound to do the same with all capital criminals. All three (murder, rape,* and sodomy) are capital crimes according to the only Lawgiver (Isaiah 33:22 & James 4:12).

    *Because, according to Exodus 21:16, kidnapping is a capital crime and because rape involves kidnapping, rape is a capital crime.

    For more on how Yahweh’s immutable moral triune moral law (His commandments, statutes, and judgments, including Exodus 21:16, Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13) apply and should be implemented today, see free online book “Law and Kingdom: Their Relevance Under the New Covenant” at http://www.bibleversusconstitution.org/law-kingdomFrame.html.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    What a depravity. It’s like saying pedophile is okay while raping is not. These people should read God’s Word. God condemns homosexuality AND the endorsement of it. (Romans ch.1)

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      … and YOU’RE a filty liar to bring up pedophilia regrding ANY sexuality or sexual orientation.

      Dumb much?
      .

  • D. Kirkpat

    What Bible is this person, so called minister, reading? Why is he leading so many astray? I guess he failed to read about God and how he will hold such people accountable. Bad and corrupted shepards can ruin a flock pretty easily.

    The Bible is very clear on this subject matter and what will happen to those who indulge in it. Furthermore, man did not define marriage, God did. So any other construct is wicked behavior based on a person(s) caught up in unadulterated sin.

    No homosexuals will enter the kingdom, along with whoremongers, liars and so on. People have to truly repent and refrain from the behavior and accept Christ. The Bible describes that many came out of the behavior and turned to Christ, back in biblical times. They were fully restored. It did not state they were still homosexuals and acting on their behavior as christians.

    Because a corrupt Supreme Court passes a ruling contrary to God’s words, doesn’t make God’s laws and boundaries between good and evil (wickedness) void. The word calls the behavior “abominable.” God used the most strongest language possible to express the seriousness of his position. He also destroyed two great City-States (Sodom and Gomorrah) because of this sin, as an example for future generations (we are the future generation by the way) to express his displeasure of the behavior.

    I find it bewildering to hear about leaders in a church that are willing to openly lead people to Hell. This is mind boggling. The Bible is available for all to read, and yet so many willfully choose disobedience in the most blatant way possible by devaluing marriage. The Bible warns of wolves in sheep’s clothing. The times are here where people openly refuse wisdom and wise counsel while choosing to embrace foolishness and folly. It’s getting interesting to see so many seek to embrace what God has clearly passed judgment against.

    Have to stay in prayer constantly asking God to cut these days short, else all might be lost. It’s a marvel to see so many false teachers in the Christian churches…not surprised at all.

  • Fallenman4Jesus

    This decision of the “supreme” court has been beneficial in that we are seeing just how many apostate “churches” there are out there. Flee from these. Be still and know that Jesus is the Lord who will have His vengeance in the end.

    • rationalobservations?

      Christ’s mission was not peace
      Matt 10:34

      Christ’s witness of himself is not true.
      John 5:31

      It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
      John 19:7

      There is to be no resurrection of the dead
      Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14

      The fruit of God’s spirit is vengeance and fury
      Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11

      Now., back to the questions regarding the total absence of evidence that supports the legends of “Jesus” the god-man:

      1) Can you refer to any 1st century originated evidence of the life and times of a messiah claimant (only much later Greek scribes employed by the 4th century Romans) named “Jesus”?

      2) Can you name a complete bible text that dates prior to the oldest/first 4th century Codex Sinaiticus christer bible and matches any complete text within the oldest/first 4th century originated Codex Sinaiticus?

      3) Are you aware of and can you explain the almost endless differences between the oldest/first 4th century Codex Sinaiticus bible and those many diverse and different versions of bibles that followed it?

      4) Can you explain the confusion and internal contradiction, historical inaccuracies and scientific absurdity that is contained within all the diverse and different versions of christer bibles today?

      5) Can you explain the complete absence from Jewish literature of the Jewish prophesies that the god-man “Jesus” is claimed to have fulfilled?

      6) Can you explain why “Jesus” (according to the legends within bibles) fails to meet the specification of messiah that actually exists within Jewish literature and tradition?

      I hope you can provide evidence based answers to these questions and note that your opinion, the recycled opinions of others or reference to cut-n-paste apparently human authored fiction from any of the many different old or contemporary bibles, or the very first/oldest 4th century bibles – just doesn’t conform to the definition of “evidence”.