Chamber of Commerce Backs Lesbians After Christian Videographer Declines to Shoot Ceremony

Video pdCOLUMBUS, Ohio — Two lesbian women in Ohio have filed a complaint with their local Chamber of Commerce after a Christian videographer declined to record their commitment ceremony, and now the chamber is vowing to revise its policies to prohibit members from turning down orders related to homosexuality.

Jenn Moffitt and Jerra Kincely sent an email to the business Next Door Stories last month out of their search to find a videographer to record their commitment ceremony. But as owner Courtney Schmackers is a Christian, she politely advised the women that she could not accommodate their request.

“Unfortunately at this time I do not offer services for same-sex weddings,” she replied, “but thank you for your inquiry!”

Same-sex “marriage” is not legal in Ohio, and there are no local prohibitions against declining a particular business order for conscience reasons.

“I couldn’t believe it,” Moffitt told CNN in regard to Schmackers’ response. “It is a small business, and I thought this was a tight knit community. We wanted to support local commerce and to get that kind of response was astounding.”

Therefore, Moffitt and Kincely contacted the Bexley Area Chamber of Commerce to lodge a complaint. The Chamber now states that as a result, it is in the process of re-writing its policies to prohibit members “from discriminating on the basis of race, color, religion, creed, gender, gender expression, age, ancestry, disability, marital status, sexual orientation or military status.”

“The Chamber Board believes that discrimination in any form is wrong and should not be tolerated,” the board wrote in a letter to its existing members. “As we revise this policy, we plan to seek input from our membership as well. We hope to have these new policies in place very soon.”

  • Connect with Christian News

Bexley Mayor Ben Kessler has also publicly come out against Schmackers as well.

‘Understandably, the community is concerned about a … Bexley based business, in which the private business in question has reportedly denied a service based on sexual orientation,” he wrote. “The City is concerned as well. We are proud of our community’s welcoming environment and encourage mutual respect and inclusivity.”

While Schmackers is declining media requests at this time, she did post an explanation on Facebook in light of her Christian faith.

“I made a business decision based on my spiritual beliefs and the biblical definition of marriage because I thought that I had a right to that,” she wrote. “Unfortunately, I gave the wrong answer to the wrong person, who decided to make a private issue into a public platform and now I am fully experiencing the consequences. I am sorry you had to be exposed to it, and I’m open to any and all conversation regarding it.”


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • Paul Hiett

    And that’s how you do it, folks. You don’t threaten anyone, you don’t vandalize anything, you simply go about the process legally, and in this case, it worked out as it should. The business was not fined, the owner was not arrested…the council simply decided to rewrite its policies to prevent further discrimination in their town.

    • Tony Phillips

      And in the process loose the money and business of Christian owned businesses. How long before it becomes illegal to own a business if you are a Christian? No, how you do it is the way it was meant to be done and that is by allowing businesses to do business with whom they choose when theychoose and how they choose.

      • Gary

        If there are any businesses owned by Christians who are members of that Chamber of Commerce, they should immediately withdraw their membership. And they should also tell the mayor to mind his own business. Private business associations are none of the government’s business.

        • Peter Leh

          *sigh*

          again gary……

          Integrity is still a christian value.

          you know since you have been told.

          If you refuse to hear then what does Jesus say? 🙂

      • Paul Hiett

        Illegal to own a business if you’re a Christian? ROFL…if you’re going to comment, at least do so with something of validity.

    • Richard

      Gay activists hard at work…for a time.

      • Paul Hiett

        Don’t see any gay activists doing anything…a lesbian couple filed a complaint. Council could have done anything they wanted to, they just chose a direction you don’t like.

      • MisterPine

        “Gay activists”…where?
        Are you big into conspiracy theories?

  • Gary

    Quit the chamber of commerce. Let the chamber have the queers.

    • Better AndBetter

      Hey look, Gary! Somebody in California thinks like you!

      http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05election/2015/03/18/shoot-the-gays-initiative-apparently-headed-for-circulation/

      “Any person who willingly touches another person of the same gender for purposes of sexual gratification shall be put to death by bullets to the head or by any other convenient method.”

    • HisChild

      Let the transgenders who want to use bathrooms not designated for them, insist on a queer bathroom of their own. Let them have themselves. Don’t bother us and we won’t bother you. And quit targeting Christians, to perform ‘wedding’ services for you. God has the right to define marriage as He is the one who instituted it. . .between one man and one woman. This member of the Army of the One True Living God, will speak His truth against all the militia of hell!

      • Peter Leh

        like the blacks having their own bathroom?

        we have tried that before, remember?

        • HisChild

          No way. People are not judged for the color of their skin. Men and women have a moral obligation to God, to not pervert His ways. Innocent people should not have to be subjected to other people’s perversion.

          • Peter Leh

            you think you have not shared a bathroom with a perverted person?

            sexual orientation falls under public accommodation laws in nearly all 50 states. you can not have “separate but equal” facilities.

            like i said, historically we have tried this before. 🙂

          • HisChild

            I am not ignorant, Peter. Sin is an age old story. There is good news ~ salvation by the shed blood of Jesus. The darker the atmosphere becomes (the real war is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities of the air). The brighter His light shines to us who have been redeemed. The louder the rebellion (against God), the sweeter the quietness of His voice to His children’s hearts.

          • Peter Leh

            yep

          • HisChild

            Your name is no accident Peter, but tell me about the symbol you use. I believe its Hebrew in origin.

          • Peter Leh

            arabic nazarene symbol in memory and honor of those christians being persecuted.

          • HisChild

            So, you just play the devil’s advocate? Or is it more along the lines of what scripture says, that we should provoke one another to good works? We too are the persecuted church, it will only become worse. Are you ready?

          • Peter Leh

            “So, you just play the devil’s advocate?”

            Maybe a little. 🙂

            Persecution is coming. However not here in America while others are being chopped in half and we complain about baking a cake. The missionaries and foreign christians laugh at the “hardship” we poor americans complain of.

            if fact i believe we have exchanged our religion with politics and have no idea where jesus went.

          • HisChild

            Sadly, I agree with you. And no, not in America ~ yet. Our government wants to become our God, and that’s been tried (in other countries), too. Faith in Jesus makes us an enemy of the state. My eyes are open, I pray for those who cannot see. It’s time for America to stop ‘playing’ church.

          • Peter Leh

            “It’s time for America to stop ‘playing’ church.”

            How refreshing 🙂

          • HisChild

            May the Lord cause His face to shine on you, Peter.

          • Bruce Morrow

            I agree fully! Most “Christians” here in the United States are asleep on their comfortable church pews and beautiful church buildings. Ever wonder why these same folks never seem to be out on the streets of our towns and cities proclaiming the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? I will have to admit I do and really wonder why this be the case with these professing Christians.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Redeemed how I love to PROCLAIM IT, redeeemed by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB! Written by a godly blind woman named Fanny J. Crosby.

          • Oboehner

            You’re comparing a choice to a race – not even close.

          • MisterPine

            When did you make your choice?

          • Gary

            All behavior is a choice. We are not robots.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Yes sinners do what comes naturally and that is TO SIN! Homosexuals included in this! They WILLINGLY choose to work abomination!

          • Oboehner

            What are you not insinuating gays are born that way while insinuating gays are born that way, again?

          • MisterPine

            Your lack of reading comprehension is utterly staggering.

            I’ll say it again.

            EITHER:
            a) we are born with our sexuality, or
            b) it forms in early life.

            It isn’t always A, and I never said it was always A, so how much longer are you going to beat the living hell out of this strawman of yours?

          • Bruce Morrow

            Boo to your excuses for your SIN of sodomy!

          • MisterPine

            Boo to your arrogant, hateful, judgmental superstition.

          • Oboehner

            It is learned behavior that can be unlearned.

          • MisterPine

            Unlearn your own sexual “behavior” and then come back and tell us all how well that worked out for you.

          • Oboehner

            Why would I, it’s normal. Just like I’m not addicted to drugs and need to kick that habit.

          • MisterPine

            There is very little about you I would call normal. Homosexuality isn’t learned. Homophobia is.

          • Oboehner

            More BS. gay is a condition like alcoholism. “homophobia” is just an epithet, it has no basis in fact.

          • MisterPine

            No, “turd tapper” is an epithet. Homophobe is what you are. You deny all the science and go straight for the hate. This is why you are becoming famous.

          • Oboehner

            Your opinion and there is no science that backs you up.

          • MisterPine

            My facts, you lose. As everyone else here also keeps telling you. Your religion is hate, your faith is a house of cards, your God is willful ignorance.

          • Oboehner

            Ok I’ll play your game, my facts, you lose.

          • MisterPine

            I have no games. I am not a science denier. You are.

          • Oboehner

            I don’t deny science, you have none.

          • MisterPine

            All I have is science. Have you ever been to a museum?

          • MisterPine
          • Peter Leh

            not really i am comparing equal protection of certain groups. Including us christians BTW

          • Oboehner

            How about women who don’t want some mentally deranged man inn their bathroom?

          • Peter Leh

            good question

          • Bruce Morrow

            Some folks love to play the race card for their own advantage is all. They have NO REAL INTEREST in so-called “black” folks.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Agreed 200%!!!! It’s NOT about one’s skin colour but about the SIN of sodomy which God calls an ABOMINATION!

        • Bruce Morrow

          Now playing the “race card”????? Wow how hypocritical!

          • Peter Leh

            historical reference and correlation is playing the “race card”? 😉

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            How is that hypocritical?

      • Ambulance Chaser

        I think it would very much “bother” business owners to have to add additional bathrooms to every business in America.

        • HisChild

          Then this entire thing might need to be rethought. Starting with those who would pervert the word of God. It’s very clearly written.

      • Bruce Morrow

        I hear you!

    • Bruce Morrow

      I agree!

  • Frank

    I reserve the right to deny services to anyone and not provide any reason.

    • Peter Leh

      try it. get back to us.

      do you own a business?

      • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

        I do own a business and do reserve the right to lend my aid for any reason without giving a reason.

        • Peter Leh

          then if you own a business you know the rules of public accommodation and the actions if violated.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            It looks like he’s a handyman/electrician. If Joseph A. Nagy, Jr showed up at my house when I was trying to get a qualified electrician to do any work, I’d send him home anyway. Bye Felicia.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Your choice.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Fear not Joseph. Let the wicked whine and complain. As Christians we serve the true and living God. The wicked serve their father the devil and are in BONDAGE to their sin. Sad but true. Only Jesus Christ can set sinners free with his BLOOD if they REPENT and turn to him in FAITH. John 3:15-18.

          • Oboehner

            So you would discriminate after whining about others.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Not discrimination. I choose whom I associate with in all matters. I get to decide how I run my business. Only the government can discriminate.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Yes he would and this shews his utter hypocrisy.

          • Peter Leh

            one can discriminate. the key is can it be done legally. everyone discriminates.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Sounds like someone is try to get “personal” with this statement of hostility.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I am not a public accommodation. I am a private business. The public transit system is a public accommodation.

          • Peter Leh

            “I am not a public accommodation. I am a private business. The public transit system is a public accommodation.”

            As am I. Seems you may be confused between the government and private business. If you go the the SOS website for your state the rules and regulations are there for ALL to read.

            i would hate for you to be cited thinking you may deny serviced to the public “for any reason”

            oh actually you said ” and not provide any reason”. That may be the loophole. 🙂

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            The Lord is the only one I have to answer to in the end days. Any man-made law that violates His gets ignored.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Amen!!!!! 😀

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I probably will get cited one day. I will not lend material aid to those things the Lord calls an abomination. Period.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Where in the bible does it say that same gender marriage is an “abomination”?

          • Gary

            The Bible says having s-x with someone of the same gender is abomination (Leviticus 18:22). The Bible says marriage is the union of a man and a woman (Genesis 2:24). Same gender marriage is not mentioned in the Bible. But it is understood to be prohibited by what is mentioned about s-x and marriage.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Same gender marriage is not mentioned in the Bible.”

            I’m glad we agree.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Of course you ignore the rest of Scripture decrying sodomy as an abomination.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I don’t ignore it. It simply isn’t relevant to our laws.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Seriously?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Yes.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I probably will get cited one day.”

            How would that be? You said you weren’t a business of public accommodation. That means you are a member only business and that your customers are members. Therefore, you can not be cited.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I am not a business of ‘public accommodation’. I choose which jobs to accept or decline and I do not need to give a reason why.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            If you are open to the public, you are a business of public accommodation. If you work as in independent contractor, then you are not a business of public accommodation. It would depend, to some extent, on the legal structure of your business.

            If you are not a business of public accommodation, then there would be no way for you to be cited for violating anti-discrimination laws.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I am a sub-contractor, business is set up as sole-proprietorship. Regardless, though, as Christians we have a moral obligation to ignore the laws of man where they contradict the Supreme Law Giver.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            If you are a sub-contractor, then you are not contracting directly with the public and are thus not a business of public accommodation. The people for whom you subcontract, however, would be.

            You are certainly free to ignore whatever laws you care to.

          • Clive Johnson

            Then you should be prepared to pay the civil penalties.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I am.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Stay the course Joseph Nagy! I will NEVER either. Yes the world will come after Christians but we need to be like Daniel’s in our generation!

          • Peter Leh

            just do you know. imo it would be so unnecessary to be cited if you set up you business and business policy and reflects you convictions AND satisfies the state.

            it can be done.

          • Frank

            Bingo…..

          • Peter Leh

            not saying loopholes are bad.

            i have found the same with discriminatory termination. there are plenty of reasons to fire an employees without triggering a citation. 🙂

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Especially if you are in a right-to-work state like TN. You can be terminated (or voluntarily terminate) for any or no reason.

          • Peter Leh

            you can say “i don;t serve blacks” and the state of Tennessee won;t cite the business ?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I thought we were talking about employment now?

          • Peter Leh

            sorry no. customer ordering a service advertised. as in the story.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Being of one ethnicity or another isn’t a choice and it isn’t something that aids or causes me to participate in sin. Do not conflate the non-choice of ethnicity with the choice of perversion.

          • Peter Leh

            i think if one looks at any or all of my posts i have never equated ethnicity with sexual orientation.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            You are trying to imply it with your earlier comment in this thread. Otherwise there is no reason to bring up ethnicity as I have never mentioned it once.

          • Peter Leh

            So what would the common thread between ethnicity and race?: Equal Protection.

            i have never equated race with sexual orientation. just like religion fall under equal protection it is not the same as race.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            No such thing as different races. Africans, Asians, Europeans, Australian aboriginals, etc. are /not/ different races.

            Sexual orientation, as a lifestyle choice, has no business receiving such protections. Ethnicity, gender, natural hair color, etc. are all natural, unchosen traits. Choosing to be a sodomite, is not.

          • Peter Leh

            “No such thing as different races. Africans, Asians, Europeans, Australian aboriginals, etc. are /not/ different races.”

            Agree but off topic in terms of public accommodation.

            “Sexual orientation, as a lifestyle choice”

            so is religion. yet religion and sexual orientation is listed under public accommodation laws along with immutable charateristics.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            If your business is open to the public, you are a business of public accommodation.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Nope, sorry.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            It’s unfortunate that you do not have a better understanding of the meaning of “public accommodation”.

          • Bruce Morrow

            You seem to have NO UNDERSTANDING of the meaning of a PRIVATE business owner. None!

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Actually, I have a complete understanding of it. It does not matter if the ownership of a business is public or private. The business must operate within the boundaries of the law, or face the consequences of not doing so. The form of ownership is irrelevant.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Yes indeed his business is open to the public and as an private business owner he has all the RIGHT in the world to refuse services to ANYONE he so pleases! Sodomites included if he so chooses.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “he has all the RIGHT in the world to refuse services to ANYONE he so pleases!”

            You may find it beneficial to familiarize yourself with various anti-discrimination and civil rights legislation. It will help you to realize that you are incorrect in your statement.

          • Bruce Morrow

            Again those who side with the sodomite agenda will NEVER understand this fact of life! NEVER!

          • Bill

            any business open to the general public is classified as a public accommodation in America

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Sorry, I am not public transportation. I offer my services as I see fit to whom I see fit. Period.

          • Bill

            you don’t have that right. you either serve everyone or no one. there is no other option.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Yes, I do have that option. I may associate me, my labor, and my business’s name and reputation with whomever I choose.

          • Bill

            nope. look up the laws regarding business.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I do have that option. Businesses refuse service for many different reasons (“no shirt, no shoes, no service”, etc.)

          • Bill

            not if they’re a member of a protected class which sexual orientation is.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Sexual orientation, as a lifestyle choice, has no business receiving such protections. Ethnicity, gender, natural hair color, etc. are all natural, unchosen traits. Choosing to be a sodomite, is not.

          • Bill

            tough S H I T. Veteran status is protected Marital statues is protected and religion is protected. all these things are choices yet are also considered protected classes so it doesn’t matter if sexual orientation is a choice,

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            If religion was protected we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

          • Bill

            protected from discrimination that doesn’t mean the laws don’t still apply to you.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Yet I am being discriminated against and forced to provide my labor, name, and reputation to something I don’t agree with. That is slavery. The law is unjust in compelling one group to serve another.

          • Bill

            that’s not discrimination moron.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            No, it’s slavery.

          • Bill

            no it’s doing your job

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            You do not get to say what my job is, as a business owner I and I alone get to determine that, otherwise what is the point?

          • Kara Connor

            Try reading the laws governing the business you plan on opening. I know you are find of religious special rights to ignore laws everyone else has to follow, but that doesn’t generally fly. Perhaps “Discriminators R Us” would work for your business name?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            My business is already up and running.

          • Kara Connor

            Well perhaps you might want to put up a “No Lesbians” sign so that we don’t have the unfortunate situation of your refusing to serve me?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I’ll serve you, I won’t serve LGBQT Activist organizations. Love how ya’ll focus on one thing and then misconstrue my words to suit your own needs.

          • Kara Connor

            Perhaps I missed the subtle nuances of whom you would and would not discriminate against.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Again, only the government can discriminate. What about that do you libs not understand? Discrimination comes from force of law only. Otherwise it’s known as freedom of association.

          • Kara Connor

            Clearly you don’t understand freedom of association. That’s been tried as a justification for discriminatory businesses. It doesn’t fly. A public accommodation is for the public. Unless they are being disruptive in some way, they get service. I find it most strange that the top focus of the Christian right is trying to get special legal rights so they can discriminate. What a sad bunch.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Sorry, once again I am not a public accommodation.

          • Kara Connor

            In which case those laws don’t affect you.

          • Harry Oh!

            It would be no different than if I was a vegetarian plumber and declined a request to do a job at a slaughter house. To hide behind some BS about serving the public is both disingenuous and dishonest. People turn down business all the time for lots of different reasons, it’s called discretion and in America we have lots of choices, so go find another business. But it’s this one particular hot button issue that makes blood squirt out of liberals eyes and they will stop at nothing to punish and silence all those who disagree with them.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            What are you talking about? Slaughterhouses aren’t a protected class.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “t would be no different than if I was a vegetarian plumber and declined a request to do a job at a slaughter house.”

            No, that would be different. You are completely within your legal rights to turn down the job at the slaughter house. Owning a slaughter house is not a protected category.

          • Bruce Morrow

            So sodomites are now a “protected” category???

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Not that I’m aware of. Why do you ask?

          • Peter Leh

            “So sodomites are now a “protected” category???”

            see bruce. You can raise your business IQ. 🙂

          • Clive Johnson

            I should hope so. They’ve been mistreated for far too long.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Nor is owning an electrical/handyman business.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            It would depend on the legal structure of the business entity as well as the way the services are marketed to the public.

          • Bruce Morrow

            The sodomites seem NOT to understand this simple concept Harry Oh! They purposely seek out Christian-owned business and then seek to take revenge on said business by complaining to either a government agency or in this case the local Chamber of Commerce. Such hypocrisy to say the least!

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “They purposely seek out Christian-owned business and then seek to take revenge on”

            What is the basis for that statement.

            Please point out the hypocrisy.

          • Clive Johnson

            Do you know the meaning of the term hypocrisy?

          • Peter Leh

            “But it’s this one particular hot button issue that makes blood squirt
            out of liberals eyes and they will stop at nothing to punish and silence
            all those who disagree with them.”

            you may tone down the “talk show” rhetoric.

            equal protection is hardly one sided. both conservative AND liberal judges are overturning SSM bans left and right. Nor is it religious as the chrisitan community is far from unanimous on SSM.

            “It would be no different than if I was a vegetarian plumber and declined a request to do a job at a slaughter house.”

            If you were a business owner or just rudimentary business IQ you woul know better to suggest such a thing. The example you gave is apples and oranges as slaughterhouses are not “protected” groups. If you turned down the slaughter house because the owner was black or a christian or woman then the argument is relative.

            i not asking i am telling…straight from the law without opinion. 🙂

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            It is these same laws we need to be ignoring as they cause us to violate G-d’s law. Just because so-called Christians disagree on ssm does not change the Scripture’s position on the issue. G-d’s word has not changed.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You are certainly free to ignore whatever laws you care to. Hopefully you will have considered the consequences of doing so and will face those should they come into play

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            The government can do nothing to me that is eternal.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Very true.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            This is the only thing we agree upon.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I’m sure there would be many things we agree upon if we knew each other better.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            From our current discussion I find that doubtful, but I’m game.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Do you like:

            Christmas lights?

            A cold glass of tea on a hot summer day?

            Puppies?

            Babies?

            Do you think it is wrong to:

            Steal?

            Murder?

            Harm others for personal gain?

            Cheat?

            Lie?

            Take advantage of others based on their lack of education or knowledge of the world?

            Do you think there is value in being:

            Kind?

            Honest?

            Helpful?

            Courageous?

            Generous?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I see what you did there.

            I don’t celebrate Christmas (or Easter or Halloween) but do try to keep the Passover. I love iced sweet tea, have two dogs and three cats, my wife and I are looking into adoption. I can answer yes to all the rest of your questions.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Well we have a lot of things in common, then.

            I hope the adoption goes well. It’s great that you may be able to provide a home to children who might not otherwise have one.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Thank you. (:

          • Peter Leh

            “It is these same laws we need to be ignoring as they cause us to violate G-d’s law.”

            it is? the law does not require anyone to violate their faith. you can set up you business any way you wish to satisfy your conscience AND state regulation.

            “Just because so-called Christians disagree on ssm does not change the
            Scripture’s position on the issue. G-d’s word has not changed.”

            nor mine. The point is we can do both. help our neighbor with out compromising our faith

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            It does. We are told to flee from evil, to not participate in sin. Helping people wallow in their sin is participating in the sin.

          • Peter Leh

            so how are you participating in “their sin” by providing a service?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            You are helping them celebrate it. You are aiding them in the commission of it.

          • Peter Leh

            so in your case , would fixing a homosexuals toilet or light switch be “aiding”?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Nope. Fixing a light switch or a toilet in a private residence is just making sure the essentials of a home are functioning. Providing labor for an LGBQT activist organization, participating in same-sex civil unions, etc. would be assisting.

          • Peter Leh

            i see. so you probably would never face decisions other business people are facing based on your profession and type of service.

            so can you turn down a job at a mosque based on religious conviction?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Yes, I would. I would also turn town Hindu/Buddhist/Taoist temples, yoga parlors (yoga is pagan idol worship, research it before you respond, every position relates to a position for a particular idol in the Hindu religion), etc.

          • Peter Leh

            i see. so you probably would never face decisions other business people are facing based on your profession and type of service.

            so can you turn down a job at a mosque based on religious conviction?

          • KenS

            Peter, I have asked you this question on a prior article, and I dont think you ever got back to me.

            How does a business set itself up so that it can operate freely without violating their conscience or God’s law?

          • Peter Leh

            “Peter, I have asked you this question on a prior article, and I dont think you ever got back to me.”

            my apology.

            it is all in the business policy and registration with the state. ( see hitching post in idaho for example.)

            #1 The hitching post change from a public corp to a religious corp. they only do weddings set to the religious perimeters in the business policy. the customer can take it of leave it.

            there are restrictions, of course. If the business performs a non religious service t is outside its registration and by laws and subject to citation.

            so there is one example.

            #2 another is to sub out the work. You won;t do a wedding you don’t agree? sub it out to one who doesn;t.

            #3 eliminate the service. if you dont; change your registration and cannot serve all under the public accommodation laws list on the SOS website the you must eliminate the service. (see CO baker)

            the laws change and business has to “bob and weave” and get creative. but trust me the government does not want business to shut down as it a primary income source. but things to change.

            with one stroke of the pen i lost 50% of my income at one time in my state. Did i like it? hell no. is it the law? Yep. what do i do? keep swinging or get out of the game. 🙂

          • Marvels of life

            Please Joseph, explain or if you like show me the scriptures you refer to. Also if you will, put them into context based on your interpretation of the scripture. Please include any verses or chapters after that. In other words when you apply what Paul said, please also indicate what he said right after. If there are also new verses I’m not aware of based on the New Covenant of Jesus please share them. For informational purposes only. Thank you

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            You do realize Paul was not the only one to be accredited with NT literature, right?

            Both Old Testament and New Testament literature apply here. We have our main example from Daniel (the first 6 chapters) where Daniel and his buddies defy the king’s law 3 times because it would have caused them to violate G-d’s law.

            In 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 we are told to flee fornication:

            1 Corinthians 6:18-20
            18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

            19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

            20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.

            We are told to flee idolatry in 1 Corinthians 10:14 (KJV)
            14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

            In the grand context of the surrounding verses:

            1 Corinthians 10:6-22 (KJV)
            6
            Now these things were our examples, to the intent
            we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
            7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of
            them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to
            play.
            8 Neither let us commit
            fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty
            thousand.
            9 Neither let us tempt
            Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

            10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them
            also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
            11 Now all these things happened unto them for
            ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the
            world are come.
            12 Wherefore let him
            that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
            13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is
            common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted
            above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape,
            that ye may be able to bear it.
            14
            Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
            15 I speak as to wise men;
            judge ye what I say.
            16 The cup of
            blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The
            bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

            17 For we being many are one
            bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

            18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are
            not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
            19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or
            that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
            20 But I say, that the things which the
            Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not
            that ye should have fellowship with devils.
            21
            Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye
            cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.

            22 Do we provoke the Lord to
            jealousy? are we stronger than he?

            We are told not to partake in those things we are evil in the Lord’s sight. See verse 21 specifically.

            Do you want more?

          • Marvels of life

            Excellent. I agree with what is stated. I surely don’t want to participate in those things. However, lets talk about what Jesus says about such things if we can. Can you specifically give me some insight into what Jesus had to say. I assume we are at this point talking about an approach to discussion, is that what your thought is?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Well, this is how I see it. Scripture is the Word of G-d. Jesus is G-d in the flesh. All of Scripture is His word so nothing is said in it that He didn’t say.

          • Marvels of life

            I agree with that as well. I have another question. When did the new Covenant of Christ begin. If you recall on the cross Jesus told the thief that he would be with him in paradise. Some teach that the new covenant of Christ was at his death and resurrection. Curious as to your thoughts on that.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            I believe it began with His ministry and was the Covenant was finalized with His death and resurrection as such was needed for Him to take on all the sins of all the people in the world (past, present, and future) for Him to make a way back to G-d for us.

          • Oshtur

            Why would a vegetarian refuse such a job at all? I don’t know any vegetarians who think it is anything other than their personal choice and everyone has a right to believe differently.

            And they filed a complaint with the Chamber of Commerece, Better Business Bureau would be good to. They are customers treated badly, they have a right to complain.

            The business is religiously discriminating in a public offer, and why should they be able to do it in secret? When this has come up before there are all the people who say they have a right to discriminate if they want, isn’t this the perfect solution?

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      That is not a right you have.

      • Bruce Morrow

        What right does Joseph not have if I may as so myself?

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          If he operates a business of public accommodation, he does not have the legal right to turn customers away for any reason he cares to.

    • Bruce Morrow

      Frank I agree with you. Afterall it is YOUR business NOT the governments or in this case the Chamber of Commerce. All I can say is let the sodomites whine. Just ignore them.

      • thoughtsfromflorida

        Frank is able to do whatever he wants. But he will be held accountable for breaking the law. The law does not allow him to turn away clients based upon any reason he cares to cite.

        • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

          And in this case the law is wrong.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            A matter of opinion.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            A matter of fact.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Good” is a matter of opinion. To suggest that your view makes something inherently “good” or “bad” is quite egotistical.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            It would be, only in this case I am right. Just because something is a law doesn’t mean it is right, it only means you got a majority of politicians to agree upon something. It being a law doesn’t make it inherently right, either.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “It being a law doesn’t make it inherently right, either.”

            Agreed. It’s a matter of opinion.

          • OldArkie

            And we are to obey God, not man.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Exactly.

          • Bill

            then you will be punished for breaking the law.

          • OldArkie

            I would rather be punished by man than God.

            Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

          • Bill

            spoken like someone who has never suffered in his life. you won’t be talking like that after one day in prison.

          • OldArkie

            At 18 months my mother, brother, sister, lost their life in a house fired, them I was place in an orphan home, a family took me home with them, them about two years later they left the country leaving me behind by myself. Yet I do not complain. Oh, the Lord loves you, He gave His Son on the cross so that you can have that ‘blessed hope,’ that wonderful hope of life within Heaven, where the former things will pass away, where there will be no more death, sorrow, crying, nor any more pain and God shall wipe away the
            tears. Your choice.

            Have a blessed day.

          • Bill

            cute story, I doubt any of it’s true.

    • Bill

      You don’t have that right.

  • smbelow

    Moffit said: “We wanted to support local commerce and to get that kind of response was astounding.”

    She knew the response she was going to get because that’s what she was looking for. Although, I can’t be 100% positive, I believe this couple[sic…k] was searching for Christian businesses–email is an easy way to go about it–so they could attack it.

    • Paul Hiett

      So with nothing more than your personal feelings, this is the conclusion that you came to? Nothing in the article suggests anything of the sort.

      • smbelow

        Exactly, troll. What’s your point? However! These types of stories are not uncommon. And some of your (another personal feeling) outspoken sodomite friends have said as much. Would you like quotes?

        • Paul Hiett

          I didn’t insult you. I didn’t insult anyone here. And yet, your first statement is to insult me and call me a troll. How does that fall into your religion?

          Sure, I’d like to see some quotes, as long as you can link to them and not just make them up.

          I can point you to a story in which a Christian targeted a store to try and force them to write anti-gay slogans on a cake. Quite frankly, between Christians and gays, the only one actively targeting others are the Christians.

          • smbelow

            Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

            Seeing that your posts are all over this page–a Christian website to boot–and your comments are challenging Christian doctrines INCLUDING a comment which used ‘ROFL’; I can safely say that my use of the word “troll” is within boundaries of intent. So it falls inline with always being prepared to give a defense.

            Quote: “…Fighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there”

            Google Masha
            Gessen to get the complete message.

            And the Christian who targeted a store was just proving the hypocrisy of this movement; showing that the sodomite community is not into it for equal rights.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yeah, when you have to resort to degrading words like “sodomite”, and lead off with calling someone a troll rather than actually discussing something, you lump yourself in with Gary.

            Fortunately, you and he are not indicative of the majority of Christians.

          • smbelow

            I’m using the word “sodomite” because the word “homosexual, LGBT and Gay” have been normalized and attached to the civil rights movement, which it’s not. The word “sodomite” tends to, more accurately, depict the truth of the movement.

            Discussing something? What is there to discuss? To a Christian, this topic is settled. Sodomy is a sin and is only an indication of the death throws of society which has adopted an amoralistic pattern of behavior.

            “…indicative of the majority…” You are absolutely correct. But that gets into the whole “wide” and “narrow” gate thing, which is not a matter of topic for this post.

          • Paul Hiett

            Actually, it is a civil rights movement. You’re attempting to discriminate against people for whom their orientation is not a choice. That’s why marriage bans across this nation are falling like domino’s, and the grande finale is coming in June.

            Look at the countries around the world that have legalized SSM…say, Canada, for instance. Has anything befallen them? Has their society crumbled and eroded away? Are they back in the dark ages now?

            Can you describe one bad thing that is going to happen to you, or to any Christian for that matter, when SSM is legal everywhere?

          • smbelow

            “Actually, it is a civil rights movement.”
            No, it’s an unnatural, amoral lust issue.

            “Look at the countries…”
            Depends what you except as “crumbled.” This sexual revolution has been the cornerstone behind the destructive nature of families, infidelity, adolescent misbehavior, pornography, pedophilia, sexual diseases, murders, etc… So, yes society is crumbling. Oh yeah…Christians are being silenced and even thrown in jail for even mentioning that this behavior is a sin to people that don’t believe in God. So, that would add to persecution.

            Plus you are missing ONE un-measurably huge issue. God condemns it!

            What does the dark ages have to do with this topic?

            “Can you describe…”
            Happening already. The destruction of the natural Family unit.

          • Paul Hiett

            Let me get this straight…homosexuality, prevalent in over 1500 species of animals, humans included by the way, has been observed for thousands of years. And yet, you think it’s a sexual revolution and is responsible for high divorce rate among heterosexuals (Christians are at 50% divorce rate btw), and murders, STDs which ANYONE can get, and pedophilia?

            You actually believe this. I’m shocked, to be honest. Homosexuality has been in every society around the world for as long as man has walked the earth. Longer than the Bible has been around, in fact.

          • smbelow

            And how can you prove that animals are “homosexual?” Can you talk with them? And without getting into the whole topic of animal gayness (laughing here), let’s just say that Humans are not and has never evolved from animals (The Christian point of view according to scripture).

            Umm…when I say “sexual revolution” I am now including ALL forms of sexual promiscuity not just sodomy. Although sodomy is, by far, one of the most repulsive forms of perversion, they are all responsible. Sodomy is just the linchpin to all out immorality.

            “you think it’s a “sexual revolution” and is responsible…”

            Why yes I do! Remember…Christians are just as susceptible to societal changes as anyone. A person calling himself Christian doesn’t mean they have some cloak of sainthood around them. We can sin just as easy as the hard-nosed atheistic prophet.

            There are a lot of statistics that paint a very gloomy picture of the “homosexual” (sodomite) lifestyle–even murder. Just look them up yourself.

            “Homosexuality has been in every society…”

            Your’re correct, but none of them have ever brought it, ceremonially, into their culture; like what is happening now.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m guessing you don’t know much about the Roman society long before Christianity in 313 AD?

            Also, animals…homosexuality…is your Google broken?

            Yes, over 1500 species of animals (humans included even if you don’t agree with everyone with any kind of degree in zoology or biology or anthropology) exhibit homosexual behavior. From coitus for pleasure to taking a mate for life. In fact, the percentage of each species is also the same, about 3%.

            Odd, don’t you think, that homosexuality has been around for so long and hasn’t died out? I mean, surely, if it wasn’t natural, it would have died out millions of years ago, right?

          • GibbyD

            “God is a Spirit ” ( John 4:24)KJB. Specifically, “God is LOVE” ( I John 4:7,8)KJB. God (Holy LOVE) became incarnate in the person of The LORD Jesus Christ . ( John 1:1-14; Isaiah 9:6; John 14:9-14)KJB. God ( Holy LOVE) demonstrated how wonderful and all powerful He is by suffering a pain and judgement upon Himself that He did not deserve in order to save us from that same wrath and judgement for which we do deserve. The LORD Jesus arose from the dead. He says that He alone is , “The Way , The Truth and The Life” ( John 14:6)KJB. Jesus saves whosoever has experienced , ” repentance toward God ( Holy Love) and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ” ( Acts 20:21 )KJB. Jesus said , ” Ye MUST be born again” ( John 3:3; I Peter 1:23)KJB. Please , “…obey from the heart this form of doctrine delivered unto you..” (Romans 6:17)KJB. The result will be everlasting and abundant life and love. ( John 3:16; Philippians 1:6; 2 Corinthians 5:17; I John 5:13)KJB.

          • Better AndBetter

            “Do as I say or burn in a lake of fire for eternity” is NOT LOVE. It’s the ravings of a petty, angry sky monster.

          • Gary

            Why is God obligated to love you?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Because, Gary, God is Love. He can’t stop loving us. Just as a mother or father still loves their children, even when they disobey them. God Bless!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            If a parent said that to their kids we’d call CPS.

          • GibbyD

            If you end up in an everlasting burning hell and Lake of Fire , it will be because you rejected The HOLY ONE. You will have rejected His LOVE expressed and offered to you when He( God) became a man and suffered the full payment for your sins. His suffering would have been equal to what it would be like to burn on fire forever when He bore our sins in His own body while on The Cross of Calvary. God knew you could never be good enough to make it to Heaven. He knew that it would be impossible for anyone to keep the Commandments perfectly enough to be saved from the penalty of our sins. God made a way for us . “Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Telling a child not to play with fire, or don’t play in traffic, because you could die, is the act of LOVING Father.
            People choose to go to the Lake of Fire all by themselves, God just respects their decision.

          • Paul Hiett

            What is this mash up of Bible quotes?

            I can post quotes too…like 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, but I don’t think the women here would like it.

          • GibbyD

            The context is the Assembly of God’s people when believers are gathered together unto and in The Name of The LORD Jesus Christ. ——— Why would a Godly Christian woman not like this portion for instruction ? I believe you assume too much.

            “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
            34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

            If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

            Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.” ( I Corinthians 1426-39)KJB.

            The verses that I posted are all profitable, easy to be understood and proper for combining to teach a truth about the character and nature of God. It also includes verse that explain how you or anyone can have assurance of everlasting life.

          • smbelow

            Umm…yes I studied Roman history, but don’t remember reading anything about “homosexual marriages”
            being an acceptable and common practice in the society. However, I do need to admit I’m not an expert at it. Although, I did read something about Nero. Plus!!! Wasn’t the Roman empire falling apart around this time…and…didn’t Constantine try to salvage the dying empire by propping up his own form of Christianity?

            “Also…”
            Of course my Google works. And I read the research, I just think the research is unfounded. You can ask humans, why. You can’t have the same conversation with animals. So, most of this research is slanted speculation. Remember, God made man in His image. Did He attribute the same relevance to animals? So this attempt at animal/human similarities is irrelevant in this argument.

            “Odd…”
            Your understanding depends on your worldview. I start with God’s plan and man’s sin. You start with God’s irrelevance and man’s lusts. Right?

          • Gary

            It is not homosexual orientation that I and others discriminate against. It is homosexual behavior that we object to and discriminate against.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “attached to the civil rights movement, which it’s not.”

            The civil rights movement was about equal treatment under the law and discrimination in housing, public accommodation, and employment.

            How is that different than what gay people are seeking?

          • smbelow

            Because marriage and natural procreation has been defined as one man and one woman. By opening up the proverbial can of postmodern re-definitions; there’s nothing to say that animal-human marriages won’t be next.

            Sodomy is not something to obtain equal rights; it’s just a lustful unnatural act.

          • Better AndBetter

            You’re lying.

            Marriage requires no procreation. Procreation requires no marriage.

            Since our founding, we have allowed those who cannot procreate to get married.

            Try again… and stop lying.

          • smbelow

            Please, pay closer attention. I used the conjunction “and”.

          • Better AndBetter

            Completely irrelevant to marriage.

          • smbelow

            To a sinner, it would be irrelevant. To a Christian, the joining of man and woman in marriage (not governmental) would be God’s plan. You know. The whole man leaves mother and father and is joined as one to his wife.

            It all depends on your worldview. And considering you’re on a Christian website, you should be adhering to the doctrines we go by. Otherwise, you should go to the “secularist, I don’t have an objective opinion” website.

          • Better AndBetter

            It’s a matter of law, not religion.

            Try again.

          • smbelow

            Umm….what’s that little clause in the Constitution? Something about government shall make NO law…? Marriage is actually a religious ceremony that should be protected by law. Unless you can prove that marriage is a secular practice.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Marriage is actually a religious ceremony that should be protected by law.”

            How each religious organization wishes to conduct marriage ceremonies is up to them. Nothing has changed in that regard. Civil marriage is not a religious ceremony.

            “Unless you can prove that marriage is a secular practice.”

            Since there is no religious aspect required to enter into civil marriage and civil marriage is granted to those who have no religious beliefs and civil marriage licenses are issued by the state, not by religious organizations, civil marriage is most certainly a secular practice.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “To a Christian, the joining of man and woman in marriage (not governmental) would be God’s plan.”

            If your view does not include the governmental definition of marriage, then why would you have any objections to two citizens of the same gender accessing the governmental legal status of marriage?

          • smbelow

            “Why would you have…”
            I wouldn’t have any problems with this. However!!! Government is infringing on and redefining the term “marriage” which is a religious ceremony that dates all the way back to Adam and Eve.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I wouldn’t have any problems with this.”

            Great!

            ” which is a religious ceremony that dates all the way back to Adam and Eve.”

            Civil marriage is not a religious ceremony. It is secular. Religious organizations remain free to define the religious rite of marriage in any way they care to. The government is not redefining the religious rite of marriage.

          • MisterPine

            This is a Christian website, but not a website for Fundamentalist Christians only. I know many, many Christians who take no issue with homosexuals, so don’t be thinking everyone who calls you out for hate and bigotry here is going to be an atheist.

          • Gary

            No, you don’t. All Christians oppose homosexuals because homosexuality is condemned in the Bible. People who support homosexuals are not Christians.

          • MisterPine

            No True Scotsman fallacy Gary, for the millionth time. You do not get to dictate who is Christian and who is not. You are not God.

          • Gary

            To think that a Christian can believe anything they want, and support anything they want is nonsense.

          • MisterPine

            That isn’t what’s going on. They simply disagree with you regarding your interpretation of the Bible.

          • Gary

            Then they are not Christians. It is not possible for the Bible to mean two opposing things. Homosexuality cannot be both good and evil.

          • MisterPine

            Maybe your Bible understanding is wrong. I’m sure the Christians I know would say it was VERY wrong. Regardless, your logic has failed – they wouldn’t cease to be Christians over it.

          • Gary

            If they think that the Bible says homosexuality is moral, I would challenge them to prove that from the text. I am confident they cannot.

            This idea you have that one can be a Christian while having beliefs that contradict the Bible is nonsense. It is like saying one can be both a muslim and a Christian, or a Hindu and a Christian, or an atheist and a Christian. It is simply not possible.

          • MisterPine

            They don’t have to prove that homosexuality is moral. There are people who doubt those texts even refer to homosexuality at all. Some say they speak of male prostitution and not homosexuality. If you disagree it doesn’t matter and I don’t care, it’s irrelevant. If you believe that then you have no conflicts and are a perfectly good Christian.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Because marriage and natural procreation has been defined as one man and one woman.”

            For many centuries it was defined as between one man and many women – as it still is in many places. Here in the US it was defined for over two centuries as one man and one woman of the same race.

            “By opening up the proverbial can of postmodern re-definitions; there’s nothing to say that animal-human marriages won’t be next.”

            Yes there is. It’s called “consent”.

            “Sodomy is not something to obtain equal rights”

            Agreed. Sexual acts do not obtain equal rights. Citizens do.

            “it’s just a lustful unnatural act.”

            Given that sodomy is something that the majority of sexually active people engage in, what would be your basis for stating that it is “unnatural”?

          • smbelow

            “For many centuries…”
            Is God’s Word trumped by “many centuries?” Umm…No!

            “Agreed…”
            A very vague statement when you unpack the qualifiers of what defines a citizen and the protection there of.

            “Given…”
            Study the origin of the word and the significance; then think really hard about what you wrote.

          • HisChild

            Amen and Amen!

          • MisterPine

            You shouldn’t be using the word “sodomite” at all because the vast majority of sodomy is done between straight couples.

          • smbelow

            “You shouldn’t be using…”Sure I should! Just look up the Etymology of the word. It’s an all encompassing word to describe the complete nature of this immorally charged generation and even provides the repercussions of such acts–without prejudice. And! It avoids the normalized, water downed version of the LGBT usage.

          • MisterPine

            You could just say “homosexual” – people would know what you were talking about that way, there would be no hate, and it would not immediately label you as a religious zealot.

          • smbelow

            “You could just say…”
            You mean the word “homosexual” that now has a protected status and is attributed to some kind of civil rights movement? Should we also remove all the words in the Bible that brings up sodomy or any other word we deem as hateful.

            And what does it mean to be a zealot for Christianity? Can you tell me where in the Bible that would be a problem under Christianity. Should we no long point out sin? Should we just adopt post-modernism?

          • MisterPine

            How about just using words that normal people use that don’t seek to denigrate, demonize, and hurt people? Too hard? Thought Christianity was supposed to be about love, but you make it sound like the KKK.

          • Gary

            We are not going to treat perverts as if they were normal, respectable people. I know you want us to, but we won’t.

          • MisterPine

            Yes, I know all about your “loving” religion.

          • Gary

            You can’t live in your sins and be right with God at the same time.

          • MisterPine

            Maybe you should worry about your own sins. You’re about the angriest Christian I have ever encountered.

          • Gary

            You think I’m angry? Wait until you face God. You will learn what real anger is.

          • MisterPine

            It isn’t my fault you were raised to believe in a hateful and angry God, and it doesn’t make it fact.

          • Gary

            And it isn’t my fault you are in rebellion against God.

          • MisterPine

            I’m in rebellion against a god I don’t believe is there? How does that work?

          • Gary

            If there is no God, then there are no rules about right and wrong. That means you cannot rationally oppose anything I believe concerning morality because you cannot prove you are right, or that I am wrong. You cannot prove that opposition to homosexuality and ssm are wrong. If you can’t prove any of that, why are you on here arguing with Christians?

          • MisterPine

            You are confused.

            I personally don’t believe in a god or any gods and have no issue with people being homosexuals, I don’t think they chose their sexuality but it wouldn’t matter if they did. If they find someone in this world that makes them happy then good luck to them.

            However, I know Christians, many of them, who don’t take the view you do that homosexuality is sinful, and I don’t think you have the right to say they aren’t Christians just because you disagree with them.

          • Gary

            You have no reason to say that I have no right to do anything. If there is no God, as you say you believe, then you have no basis on which to say anyone has any right. Also, since you are an atheist, why don’t you consider your “Christian” friends to be irrational?

          • MisterPine

            Because I can easily respect anyone’s beliefs as long as they aren’t trying to cause harm to other people, which they are not. They attend mass/church services and keep their beliefs to themselves.

          • Gary

            Nobody keeps their beliefs to themselves. We all live out what we believe. To an atheist, “harm” is nothing more than your opinion. And you have no reason to object to it.

          • MisterPine

            I have plenty of reason to object to religious zealots trying to trample simple basic human rights. To an atheist or a Christian or a Muslim or anyone, harm is harm and it’s unnecessary to your faith.

          • Gary

            To an atheist, “basic human rights” are not real. They are just an opinion. You really don’t understand what the logical conclusions of atheism are. You should look into it.

          • MisterPine

            I’d love to know what YOU think the logical conclusions of atheism are. Worldwide bloodshed? Seeing how most of the atheists I know are peaceful and most of the wars being fought on this planet are based on religion, I’d say you were very backwards there.

          • Gary

            Here are SOME of the logical conclusions of atheism: 1. Life has no meaning that can be proven. We can only pretend it does. 2. There is no such thing as right or wrong or good or evil because there is no universal standard to judge by. 3. Because of 2. all behaviors and thoughts are equal.

          • MisterPine

            Why, then, is so much of the bloodshed taking place on this earth caused by religion? I don’t know of any atheists who want to kill anyone. All the problems on this earth that I can see are caused by people who think they speak for God. Like, you, Gary.

          • Gary

            You have no reason to say that bloodshed is bad, or that there are such things as “problems”.

          • MisterPine

            Why is it not a civil right to be homosexual?

          • Gary

            The government might say that it is. But Christians are not going to accept perversion as a right.

          • MisterPine

            Then the simple solution is to not be a Christian, and to be on guard for anyone who thinks their superstition trumps human rights.

          • Gary

            I am all for you not being a Christian. And I am a threat to homosexuals, just like I am a threat to pedophiles, thieves, murderers and rapists.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            Gary — you can be a threat to those who are actively stealing, molesting a child, killing or raping someone. But you can’t commit an unprovoked attack on gays without going to jail. No matter how actively gay they’re being.

          • MisterPine

            Yes, I know. You want war, violence, hate, and a Christian theocracy. But it won’t happen in this lifetime.

          • Gary

            This lifetime will soon be over. Jesus Christ is coming back to earth. When he gets here, there will be a theocracy.

          • MisterPine

            No, it will continue as it has for a long time yet before the sun burns out.

          • Gary

            I’ve seen it before, but still I am always amazed at the utter irrationality of atheists.

          • MisterPine

            If not wanting to kill homosexuals makes me “irrational” in your eyes Gary, then that’s what I’d like to be.

          • Gary

            If there is no God, then there is no reason for you to object to homosexuals being killed. Or for you to object to anything.

          • MisterPine

            There is no logic to your statement. None. Just because I am an atheist does not mean I support wanton killing. Just the opposite.

          • Gary

            If there is no God, you have no reason to support or oppose anything. Atheists have no basis for making moral judgments.

          • MisterPine

            You are suggesting morality can only come from Christianity which is nonsense. Morality is learned from one’s environment, parents, teachers, etc. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion only teaches a specific kind of morality.

          • Gary

            You are saying that morality is decided by people. But it is not. People have no authority to decide if something is moral or immoral. Only God has the authority to define good and evil. And since you deny that God exists, then to you, good and evil can have no meaning. You are trying to steal morality from God and claim it originates with people. But that is not true.

          • MisterPine

            Morality requires no God Gary.

          • Gary

            Why do you have the authority to determine good and evil? What happens if you say something is moral but I disagree? How do we determine who is right?

          • MisterPine

            Because I know that to live harmoniously with other people on this earth I have to respect them. And if we all do that and don’t try to force our beliefs and opinions on other people then things will be just fine. Everyone has the right to make up their own minds.

          • Gary

            Your opinions only. So what? I disagree with everything you said. And you can’t prove me wrong.

          • MisterPine

            You are the kind of person that makes people NOT want to be a Christian. You are bitter, sick and in need of a good head doctor.

          • Gary

            Apparently, there is nobody that would make you want to be a Christian. Not the “Christians” you say you know. Not even Marvels of life. LOL.

          • MisterPine

            You aren’t living, Gary. You are existing. I never want to be anything like you.

          • Gary

            What about some of those other “Christians”? Aren’t there any of them you want to be like?

          • MisterPine

            In any respects yes.

          • Marvels of life

            That was an excellent response. I ask that you take Gary with a grain of salt. I’m a Christian and he is offensive in nature, as much as I hate to say that. Gary has an ego problem it seems and wants to persecute anyone that doesn’t agree with him. Please don’t judge other Christians by his responses. We are not all like him. Thank you.

          • Gary

            Do you support homosexuality? Do you support ssmarriage?

          • Marvels of life

            I simply don’t support you. Your arrogant, and in my opinion do not represent Christ. I’ve told you that before but you still attack people as though you know them personally. You don’t know them personally so stick with the issues. The answer is no. However I’m not the judge nor jury and neither are you. So stop trying to be the judge and jury of people’s fate. As one person says: if you don’t have something good to say its better to keep your mouth shut. In this case and all the others, I believe that would be good policy. I say that sincerely and not to be critical of you. Jesus wants messengers of love. Hate has no business in these discussions and you seem to hate people which is disturbing to me.

          • Gary

            If you don’t support homosexuality and ssm, what is the reason for your opposition?

          • Marvels of life

            I just stated it Gary. It’s your approach, not the issue.

          • Gary

            I did not see anything in your comments that indicated why you oppose homosexuality and ssm.

          • Marvels of life

            And you won’t. Why is not as important as relating to people. I can oppose homosexuality without personally attacking someone who is. I have reasons for my opposition but that hardly constitutes applying salt to a wound. I prefer a spoon full of sugar, it helps the medicine go down. Do you get it yet? Really, do you get who the authority is. It isn’t me or you, its Jesus Christ. Do you think he died and was resurrected to send people to hell? No, he died and was resurrected to tell the world how much he loved us, and how much he would do to show that love even though we all are sinners. All of us are sinners by the way, so when we start throwing rocks at homosexuals when does it stop. Do we then throw rocks at those that look to women with lust. Do we then pick and choose who we are going to target next for the rock we throw. How far are you willing to go before Jesus comes to your door and says. I was sick and you didn’t take me in. I was hungry and you did not feed me. You know what he said. You know how he lived. What makes you better than a homosexual? What makes you more righteous. And, who are you really deceiving? There is a mirror somewhere in your home. Take a look at it, then throw a rock at yourself, throw one at me. If that makes you feel better, throw the rock. But when you see me bleeding, know what you did.

          • Gary

            You cannot oppose anything unless you oppose it. And I see in you no opposition to any kind of sin. I am the only person on here that I have seen you criticize. Jesus didn’t sugar coat the sins of people the way you want to do. People who think they have done no wrong don’t think they need forgiveness. That is why you see the homosexuals and the atheists on here reject every Biblical argument anyone makes, no matter how they make it.

          • Marvels of life

            You certainly can oppose something without degradation to the people your talking to. You miss the point. Look at how Jesus taught people. He is the ultimate authority as I explained before. Not us. We share Jesus because he loves these people, do you not understand that? Repentance is something that individual must do with God. That is a personal relationship through Christ, I emphasize personal. Of course they reject Biblical arguments especially when they are treated like second class people. Our course is to plant a seed that might just grow. Your certainly not the only one I have had discussions with, and I’m not trying to criticize you. I’m trying to plant a seed. Other than that, that is all anyone can do in a comment section. You can’t possibly know who asks for forgiveness or who doesn’t. You assume it. I think you believe that because they are one way or another you can generalize who they are as a person. I’ve had conversations now with 143 Atheist’s. Yes I keep track. It gets heated at times but in the end my purpose has always been to let them know I may disagree with them, but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about them. I admit I’ve been arrogant many times and then reflect on what I said, and did a turn around in these discussions. Why? Because Jesus tells me to. He explains in my study of the Bible and other sources that I have to be careful not to let the discussion turn into personal attacks, but rather focus on the issues that are talked about. Will I convert anyone. No, but is it possible that they know I care, I hope so. Can I plant a seed to think about. I hope so. Otherwise this is all a waste of time for everyone involved. I don’t like wasting my time and I’m sure you don’t either. Have a blessed day Gary. I mean that sincerely.

          • Marvels of life

            It’s like this Gary, if your a doctor and you have taken an oath to do no harm, and then you beat up your patient so you can treat them, does that make any sense. No of course not. You treat them based on your oath.

          • Gary

            How many homosexuals have you seen give up their homosexuality and convert to Christ from your approach?

          • Marvels of life

            That is certainly irrelevant. But when it comes to converting people, my father was a minister, my grandfather and great grandfather were ministers, and they converted people to Christ daily that were not Christians. I don’t know how many were homosexuals, but I know there were some. But that’s beside the point. I didn’t follow in their footsteps because I was a computer systems specialist until I retired for health reasons. But I can tell you that my father taught people about Jesus with love, and a strong knowledge of the Bible. I have people to this very day tell me how much they loved my father for how they were treated and how greatful they are that he came into their lives and brought them to Jesus. I don’t recall one instance in his life of arrogance, pride, or criticism toward anyone. He wasn’t perfect but he knew that treating people with love was a far better approach than beating them down to the ground. That will never work if your a minister for God.

          • Gary

            If it is irrelevant, why did you bring it up?

          • Marvels of life

            If you don’t understand that by now, it’s something you’ll never understand. I said it because I am a brother in Christ to you. I’m trying to explain to you something that hopefully will cause you to think about what you say and how you say it. I say it because I care about you. I really do. I’m not your enemy. I’m a friend. I will treat you with the utmost respect if you just consider what I’m trying to tell you. Can you do that? Are you willing to do that?

          • Marvels of life

            I have a question for you. Do you support the Westboro Baptist Church?

          • Gary

            I don’t know enough about Westboro Baptist Church to be able to say that I support them. But I can say that I support their opposition to homosexuality and ssm.

          • MisterPine

            Thank you for writing, I appreciate it, and don’t worry, I consider Gary to be a very extreme variety of an extremely distasteful brand of Christian I don’ t take seriously anyway. I know the great majority of Christians are just fine and don’t judge them according to people like Gary whom I think is actually in need of psychiatric treatment.

          • Marvels of life

            My pleasure. I notice you take the position of Atheist if I’m correct. I would like to be an example of a Christian and Atheist who can debate the issues without personal attacks. Would you be interested in a discussion like that. I think we both can be civil and be an example for all of these discussions that go way off track and make it personal vendettas. What is your thoughts on that?

          • MisterPine

            Do you mean here? I should clarify that it is probably more correct to say that I am agnostic, because i don’t feel it is possible to know. My real issue with any major religion which includes Christianity is that the holy books in each case I feel were written by men and it’s really quite hard, if not impossible, for me to believe that God inspired, or otherwise had anything to do with, their writings. So as long as you can respect that I am not likely to budge from feeling that way, yes, I am agreeable to discussion.

          • Marvels of life

            I think your a good man. With that being said we could have the discussion, but I would not want to offend you. So if you don’t mind, I’ll follow your comments and if there is something I can add or not maybe we can discuss it then. How’s that?

          • Gary

            But we are. EVERY Christian is opposed to homosexuals and ssm. NO EXCEPTIONS. Most of the people you know who call themselves “Christians” are just unbelievers being hypocrites.

          • Paul Hiett

            No Gary, you are most certainly not like the others here.

          • Gary

            All Christians agree that homosexuality is perversion, and that marriage is only the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. Anyone who disagrees with that is not a Christian, even if they claim they are.

          • Paul Hiett

            So now Gary decides who is a Christian and who is not.

            How quaint.

          • Gary

            You don’t understand what it means to be a Christian. That is why you cannot distinguish between real ones and fake ones.

          • Better AndBetter

            I love it when you use the no true Scotsman fallacy… it shows your pride and arrogance… an insight into the man you really are.

          • Gary

            You are ignorant of Christianity, so I am not surprised that you don’t understand what Christians are about.

          • Better AndBetter

            But, unlike you, most don’t call for the death of gay citizens.

            As for hypocrites, thats the fundies who enjoy their public accommodations protections but wish to keep them from others.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I’m still waiting for that definition you promised me. The one that says a Christian is defined as “one who opposes same-sex marriage.”

          • Gary

            I am still waiting for you to prove homosexuality is moral.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “EVERY Christian is opposed to homosexuals ”

            “It is not homosexual orientation that I and others discriminate against.”

            So which is it Gary?

          • Gary

            Homosexuality is proven by behavior.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            What behavior?

          • Gary

            Homosexual behavior.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            What behavior would that be?

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      ” I believe this couple[sic…k] was searching for Christian businesses–email is an easy way to go about it–so they could attack it.”

      On what basis do you believe that?

      • smbelow

        Just from what I see in the news. Please, refer back to my “I can’t be 100% positive” or the “I believe” statements. It’s just my reasoning on the matter.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          So your reasoning for believing that to be true – that they knew what response they were going to get (how would that have been determined beforehand?) and were specifically searching for Christian businesses to attack – which is a pretty strong accusation – is “from what I see on the news”. Interesting that you find that sufficient rationale for the statement you made.

          What did you see on the news that would lead you to believe that this couple knew that the business owner was a Christian whose belief system would not support providing service for a same-gender wedding ceremony, knew the answer she would get, and did this purposefully to attack this business?

          I saw on the news the members of the Westboro Baptist Church picketing funerals of soldiers killed in combat. I guess all Christians are like that, huh? Oh, I also saw on the news where some prominent pastors who spoke out against homosexuality were found to be involved sexually with men – so I guess all pastors are homosexuals, huh? Oh, I also saw where some pastors molested children, so I guess all Christians are child molesters, huh?

          • smbelow

            I read about half of your post; I’m sorry, but I’m already posting in regards to another secular minded individual. I can’t keep chasing everyone’s irrationality.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Since what I said wasn’t irrational, it shouldn’t be an issue responding to my post. But if that’s something you are using as an excuse, then I completely understand.

          • smbelow

            I’ll try to come back to this…but I’m currently busy…..

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            At your convenience.

          • smbelow

            “So your reasoning…”
            It makes perfect rational sense; in that, if they weren’t looking for Christian based services, didn’t care who served them AND respected a person’s beliefs then by laws of probability they would have received other emails from competing organizations which they could’ve contracted instead. I don’t know about you, but there are many competing services for weddings where I live. And very few of them adhere to a strict Christian doctrine.

            “What did you see on the news…that this couple…”
            Just basically repeating your first paragraph with a different angle an irrelevant addition.

            “I saw on the news…”
            Now you’re just going off on a topical tangent of nonsense.

            If you want me to respond, in the future, please try to stay on topic and avoid obvious fallacies. Otherwise I’ll just reply with “trolling”.

            Trolling to me is when someone is trying to bait another by using philosophical fallacies and or padding a post with vague and off topic subject matter; just for the soul purpose of conflating a discourse.

            Please remember, this is a Christian site.

            Thanks. 🙂

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “they would have received other emails from competing organizations which they could’ve contracted instead”

            Instead of what? How do you know that they didn’t contract with a different provider? What does that have to do with their filing a complaint? Are you against free speech? Do you think they should not have expressed their opinion? Again, you provide no proof for their specifically targeting this business. In fact, the article makes clear that they reached out to several different businesses via email.

            “Just basically repeating your first paragraph with a different angle an irrelevant addition.”

            You stated that your basis was what you saw on the news. I asked what it was that you saw that would lead you feel confident in concluding that these people most likely specifically targeted this business in order to attack the owner.

            You have yet to tell me what it is you saw.

            “please try to stay on topic and avoid obvious fallacies.”

            My examples showed how unfounded it is to suggest that because you saw something on the news that someone did, that serves as a basis to judge the actions of others – in other words, pointing out the fallacy of your argument.

            “Please remember, this is a Christian site.”

            Something you would be wise to remember before making accusations against people without any proof. That’s referred to as “bearing false witness”. Not a Christian teaching.

            Christians come in various forms.

          • Marvelatthis

            Bravo!!! I have to admit, I’m becoming somewhat of a fan of yours. What you said at the end of this comment is fantastic. Don’t mean to interfere, just wanted you to know.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Ahhh…thanks. Please feel free to interfere with compliments whenever you like.

          • Marvelatthis

            Thank you sincerely.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Homosexuals (who are under the control and direction of demonic spirits who use their lusts to push them to attack others) are intentionally targeting Christians in businesses directly relating to marriage. However, they’re not going to stop with these types of businesses. These cases are just to intimidate the populace into submission to their sexual lusts, so that they may have their way with whomever they individually and corporately choose.

    Don’t forget, homosexuality is not about love, but about lust. Lust is sinful desire and these people are choosing to sin against God and His Word, Jesus Christ.

    Very few homosexuals don’t intentionally project their lustful desires towards other when interacting in public. The more society embraces it, the more forward these demons will become through their enslaved vessels of perversion.

    • Peter Leh

      in this case the business is in the right as there are no public accommodation laws in ohio for homosexuals.

      so it is unlikely this couple sought this business ought to target

      • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

        If that were true they wouldn’t have filed a complaint.

        • Paul Hiett

          So anyone who files a complaint about a company was targeting them to begin with?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Not necessarily. In this case I say it’s pretty clear.

          • Better AndBetter

            Based on what?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Their first and so far only public action was to file a complaint. No mention of finding another videographer or anything. First thing they did when denied? File a complaint (regardless if it was with CoC or state AG).

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            The story was about the complaint. Based upon the story there would be no way to determine what they did about finding another videographer.

          • Better AndBetter

            Oh for the love of god… you can’t prove any of that. You just WANT that to be the case!

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            You cannot prove it isn’t, either. Fact is, videographer declined service and instead of just moving on to the next business, they filed a complaint.

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            The fact the first thing they did was file a complaint?

          • Better AndBetter

            Really? That’s it?

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            Not sure how more proof is needed (aside from an out-and-out admission).

        • Peter Leh

          they filed a complaint with the CoC not the AG. the CoC has not governing authority

          • http://www.joseph-a-nagy-jr.us Joseph A. Nagy, Jr

            No but they can penalize their members and institute rules for their members to follow. I will not join any CoC. Liberals to the core.

          • Peter Leh

            ah yes. well im not a member either.

    • MisterPine

      “Homosexuals (who are under the control and direction of demonic spirits)”

      I just stopped reading. Have you forgotten to take your medication? Or do you have another explanation for writing crazy garbage?

      • FoJC_Forever

        When you stand before Jesus in Judgement (although hopefully before such time), then you will understand it is neither crazy nor garbage.

        • MisterPine

          Homosexuals have nothing to do with demonic spirits. That’s nuts. To put it politely.

          • FoJC_Forever

            If you knew what you were talking about, we could discuss it, but you are only speaking out of ignorance.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, and you DO know what you’re talking about? Would you like to find me ONE scientific article that says homosexuality has anything to do with demons? That is Fundie nonsense.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Science doesn’t prove Truth. The natural world is subject to Truth. It was created by and is upheld by the living Word of God, Jesus Christ, who is the Truth. All sin is encouraged by and used by demons and Satan to entrap and harass mankind. The lusts within mankind are what demons use to lead mankind into Darkness and Destruction. You simply argue from unbelief as though it is proof. Unbelief is only proof that you have rejected Truth and embraced the Father of Lies, Lucifer.

  • Sweetpea

    I think all Christian business’s should start posting signs that say ” THIS IS A CHRISTIAN & WE DO NOT MAKE _______ FOR SSW”

    • Paul Hiett

      I think they should too.

    • Better AndBetter

      Absolutely!

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      I think that’s a grand idea. In order to be consistent in the application of their religious beliefs, they should also add:

      We don’t provide services for weddings where either of the couple has been divorced for reasons other than adultery.

      We don’t provide services for baby showers if the mother is not married

      We don’t provide services for engagement parties if the couple are having sexual relations.

      We don’t provide services for anyone who believes in a god other than the Christian god.

  • Better AndBetter

    More religious hypocrisy… people who choose to follow bloody death cults (like christianity, judaism, and islam) get these EXACT same public accommodations protections.

    You’re all just wailing and gnashing teeth cuz you ain’t special no more.

    Get over it… gay citizens are being treated JUST LIKE YOU in the areas with public accommodations protections for sexual identity.

    Why the hypocrisy?

  • Lesli Spice

    The only hypocrisy now are from the homosexuals who are deliberately seeking confrontation with Christians. They want Christians to be hated and condemned because homosexuals were hated and condemned for centuries. This is revenge, plain and simple. Maybe Christians were wrong in judging and harshly treating homosexuals. However, you don’t swing the pendulum all the way and celebrate something that the bible plainly says is a sin. But… we are all sinners. And the solution is grace from Jesus Christ. If you believe in God, you want to submit to his authority. You realize that there is immortality. We are not about to lose your immortality for 80 years on earth. The bible foretold this would happen. Regardless, God is in control. If what is happening is making you unhappy, praise God because you understand the truth. If what is happening in the world makes you happy, you will probably not see the next life.

    • Paul Hiett

      The couple in this article knew nothing about the business owners religion. They simply emailed the business regarding their services that they advertised to the public.

      • Lesli Spice

        That is just not honest. They would just move on to another vendor, there are many they have to choose from. And if they were not looking for a confrontation and attention and condemnation and pressure on Christians they would not have gone to the City. They want to make this an issue. Paul, you comment multiple times on every single article regarding homosexual rights. What is your purpose?

        • Paul Hiett

          Any inference that they targeted Christians is an assumption on your part, and only an assumption. All they did was report to the council that a business in their town was discriminating. The council could have written back that they don’t care. It’s really dishonest when you create assumptions and then accuse people based on nothing but those assumptions.

          As to why I post…there’s no law against it. What’s wrong with debating others in a public forum?

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “who are deliberately seeking confrontation with Christians.”

      What is the basis for stating that this was done deliberately to target Christians?

      “They want Christians to be hated and condemned”

      Wow. An amazingly broad and bigoted statement. I know of no homosexual who has a desire for Christians to be hated and condemned.

  • Better AndBetter

    Please note the hysteria here!!!

    The town has ZERO public accommodations protections for gay citizens.

    The chamber of commerce has ZERO public accommodations protections for gay citizens.

    The STATE has ZERO public accommodations protections for gay citizens.

    Gay marriage is NOT LEGAL IN THE STATE.

    You people seem to all have sand in your vajayjay… get over yourselves.

  • NCOriolesFan

    Good, now the mayor and the chamber can video the ‘wedding.’ Leave the Christians alone.

  • TheBBP

    The chamber of commerce is re-writing it’s policy in an attempt to prohibit discrimination by way of discrimination.

    That makes no sense.

    • Paul Hiett

      How is the council discriminating? They’re actually rewriting it to prevent discrimination.

    • MattFCharlestonSC

      Should it be my right to turn away Christians from my business? I mean, it is your choice to be a Christian.

      • Gary

        Yes.

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          Then I want to see you lobbying to remove religion from the list of protected classes.

          • Gary

            I’m for eliminating all protected classes. But I would not agree to remove religion unless the others were also removed.

          • Better AndBetter

            And we do not agree to accept religion having special rights while they discriminate against other people… thus, you see the spread of public accommodations laws for groups christians want to kill.

            Unless you fight to get rid of your own protections, you won’t stop others from receiving the same.

      • TheBBP

        Absolutely. There are many businesses to choose from.

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    This business is certainly within legal bounds to turn away the customers. In turn, the Chamber is within its rights to determine qualifications for membership.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    ““The Chamber Board believes that discrimination in any form is wrong and should not be tolerated,” the board wrote in a letter to its existing members.”

    This statement is self-refuting: by claiming that it is objectively wrong to discriminate, the chamber is discriminating in a moral sense. Truth always discriminates against falsehood and morality always discriminates against immorality. This new form of intolerant “tolerance” is self-refuting insanity.

  • Reason2012

    And the REAL motive of getting the government to create a new State Religion to criminalize Christians who will not violate their beliefs is becoming more apparent. The issue has been falsely phrased as “states have the right to ban same-gender marriage” – this assumes there’s such a thing as “same – gender marriage to begin with”, which there is not.

    The issue is does the state have the right to re-define religious institutions and pass laws to establish this new religious institution, which would in effect be passing laws to establish a new state religion (violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment), which in turn would criminalize Christian belief about marriage (another violation of the First Amendment) – you are fined up to $150,000 if you do not violate YOUR Christian beliefs and use your business to support sinful acts.

    And on both counts, states do not have any right to do any such thing – we’re protected from such judicial religious tyranny by the Constitution of the United States of America.

    Not to mention that every single man already has the same right as every other man: to marry one woman. And every single woman already has the same right as every single woman: to marry one man. So the claim anyone’s being denied “equal rights” is false.

    Marriage was defined by God at the beginning. Jesus pointed out that marriage is between one man and one woman:

    Matthew 19:4-6 “And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, (5) And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? (6) Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    Jesus even points out that for the cause of making them male and female, this is why male will leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.

    Mark 10:5-7 “And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. (6) But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. (7) For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;”

    Jesus said God made them male and female – not male and male – not female and female.

    Jesus said man shall leave father and mother, not father and father, not mother and mother.

    Jesus said man shall cleave to his wife, not to his husband, not to her wife.

    Not to mention Jesus is God, so the entire Word of God is the Words of Christ. As Jesus is The Word.

    John 1:1-3 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

    John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

    The Lord rebukes us for our attempts to destroy what He defined as one man and one woman.

    As if that’s not enough,

    (1) Marriage is a religious institution that has existed since the beginning of time – government never defined it and our government cannot start re-defining it now.

    (2) The government is violating the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America by REDEFINING religious institutions then passing laws to establish this new state religion where anyone who does not adhere to this new state religion by violating their own religious beliefs is condemned as a criminal: sued and fined up to $150,000 dollars.

    (3) Marriage is for the possibility of procreation for the continuance of society. A same-gender marriage is, by design, never capable of such a thing.

    (4) Any pro-creation should be within a marriage – same-gender ‘marriages’ are forced to go outside the ‘marriage” 100% of the time by design.

    (5) Kids have the right to be raised by their biological mother and father – same-gender marriages legally deny them this right 100% of the time, by design.

    (6) Kids have the right to be raised by a mother and a father, not forced into setups that are dysfunctional 100% of the time: two or more fathers and no mother, or two or more mothers and no father. Same-gender marriages legally deny kids this right 100% of the time, by design.

    (7) Every single person alive has one biological mother and one biological father. Nature alone re-iterates what marriage is – that this is what a family is.

    (8) A black man who has no problem baking cakes for white people cannot be forced to bake cakes for the ACT of a “whites are supreme” meeting and so on. LIkewise a Christian who has no problem baking cakes for those who currently profess homosexuality cannot be forced to bake a cake for the ACT of a same-gender wedding.

  • Bruce Morrow

    Again another case of homosexuals whining about a Christian business owner not supporting their sin. If these sodomites asked me to do something to support their abomination, I would politely (as I know how) tell them to look else for the services they seek.

    • Paul Hiett

      If you run a business, discriminating against others will always be frowned upon.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        You’ve obviously never run a business, Mr. Hiett.
        Business owners have to discriminate all the time. From who to hire, to whom to do business with.
        The right to freely associate, along with the right to contract, are bedrocks of our God-given rights, and, are contained in the U.S. Constitution. God Bless!

        • Better AndBetter

          Then why do fundies get special public accommodations from the civil rights act? Hypocrite much?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I don’t get your point, B&B, sorry.
            Are you asking why Catholic schools can only hire Catholic teachers, or, why Jewish institutions can hire only Jews?

          • Better AndBetter

            No, I’m asking why the civil rights act gives special public accommodations protections (it is ILLEGAL to turn you away from my place of business), but it’s not OK for other citizens to get the same protections.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            it is ILLEGAL to turn you away from my place of business), but it’s not OK for other citizens to get the same protections.

            Who is “you”? And, who are the “other”?
            I think that the Civil Rights Act of 1965 infringes on the right to contract. I believe in the principle of “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for ANY reason.”

          • Better AndBetter

            “you” is people who have chosen to follow a religion.

            If you honesty believe that, where’s the push to get rid of your own special rights?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I didn’t put them there. Why do I have to push for their removal?
            Christians are standing up for their right not to contract with those with whom they disagree.
            Too bad you atheists spent all of your time suing schools every time some kid wanted to mention God at his graduation, or, if some town had a display of the Ten Commandments, huh?

          • Parque_Hundido

            That explains why you people are constantly losing in court. You just won’t listen to reason. When it comes to the law, your little beliefs don’t matter.

  • Ruteger Handsom

    Couldn’t the business, charge them, for example, $50,000.00 to film citing they are free to charge any price they like and if you can’t afford it, find another videographer? Would this avoid the discrimination charge? There has to be a clever way to deny services w/o getting pinched for discrimination…

  • getstryker

    As I read and understand this article, it states: “Same-sex “marriage” is not legal in Ohio, and there are no local prohibitions against declining a particular business order for conscience reasons.” – the controversy appears to be created by a proposed change in the policy by the local Chamber of Commerce. On the face of it, I would believe that any business person has the personal right to serve whom they will and freely exercise their religious beliefs. If this goes against a Christian videographer, then I would be interested to see the Chamber’s political stance when a gay business, or Muslim business or a black business is asked by a Christian to perform some ‘service’ offensive to their beliefs. Will the Chamber show equal resolve against the offending business owners? It’s time to fight ‘fire with fire!’

    • Gary

      You can be certain that the Chamber of Commerce will not be offended by discrimination against Christians.

      • getstryker

        Yes, I absolutely agree with you and that is why I advocated a ‘fight fire with fire’ response – the Chamber wants to ‘make this bed?? . . . let ’em sleep in it and see if they like it.’

  • Parque_Hundido

    Anti-gays need to be shown the door. If they can’t follow the law, they shouldn’t open a business.

    • Gary

      The law should not protect perverts from discrimination.

      • Parque_Hundido

        You hate freedom and you hate America.

  • Xeb97

    Satan has installed all his little satanists all across the USA. Yes, I said it! They are all satanists working hard to prosecute Christians. But God shall have the last laugh.