Minister Who Denies God’s Existence: I Don’t Appreciate Being Told I’m Not a Christian

Shuck TwitterBEAVERTON, Ore. — A Presbyterian USA minister in Oregon who says that he doesn’t believe in God—and doesn’t require his members to believe either—remarked in a recent article that he is offended by those who assert that he is not a Christian.

“Someone quipped that my congregation is BYOG: Bring Your Own God. I use that and invite people to ‘bring their own God’—or none at all,” wrote John Shuck of Beaverton’s Southminster Presbyterian Church in a guest post for Patheos last week. “While the symbol ‘God’ is part of our cultural tradition, you can take it or leave it or redefine it to your liking.”

Shuck first came out as an unbeliever in 2011, generating controversy as to how one could serve as a minister and not believe in the Bible.

“The concept of ‘God’ is a product of myth-making and ‘God’ is no longer credible as a personal, supernatural being,” he wrote in a blog post on his site “Shuck and Jive.” “Jesus may have been historical, but most of the stories about Him in the Bible and elsewhere are legends.”

Shuck reiterated his unbelief in his article “I’m a Presbyterian Minister Who Doesn’t Believe in God” on Tuesday, as he asserted that “[b]elief-less Christianity is thriving.”

“We all have been trained to think that Christianity is about believing things,” he wrote. “Its symbols and artifacts (God, Bible, Jesus, Heaven, etc) must be accepted in a certain way. And when times change and these beliefs are no longer credible, the choices we are left with are either rejection or fundamentalism.”

But Shuck says that although he rejects the Bible as being literal, and denies the existence of Heaven and Hell, he takes offense when people tell him that he’s not a Christian.

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“[E]ven though I hold those beliefs, I am still a proud minister. But I don’t appreciate being told that I’m not truly a Christian,” he stated. “Many liberal or progressive Christians have already let go or de-emphasized belief in Heaven, that the Bible is literally true, that Jesus is supernatural, and that Christianity is the only way. Yet they still practice what they call Christianity.”

However, others state that Shuck’s assertion that one can be a Christian without faith in the saving power of Christ is faulty, and that his words make evident that he does not understand what it means to be a Christian.

“Mr. Schuck proves that he knows very little about Christianity,” Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries in Jackson, N.J. told Christian News Network. “He talks about ‘belief-less Christianity’ thriving. But what defines a Christian is specifically stated as a belief that Jesus Christ as God (Romans 10:9–10). Therefore, it is impossible to have a belief-less Christianity.”

“To have someone who can claim to be a minister and redefine Christianity against its proper definition is no different than attempting to redefine marriage as possible between the same sex,” he continued. “God defines marriage as being between man and woman, and God defines Christianity based on belief.”

Rappaport said that he believes that Shuck has an ulterior motive in remaining a minister while asserting that one can be a Christian apart from following Christ.

“What you see here is nothing more than someone who wants to infiltrate the Church in an attempt to destroy it,” Rappaport stated. “The two things that he does not understand is, first, the Church will not be destroyed, and second, his whole argument that God does not exist is based on intelligence, logic, ability to reason and morality—all of which require the God that he denies, because immaterial things are not the product of chemical reactions; they require God.”

Photo: Twitter


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  • pastoredsmith

    No God = Atheist = Fool (Psalms 14:1). Naming oneself a “Christian” doesn’t make you a Christian any more than living in a garage makes you an automobile.

    • Bobby G. Hunsaker

      I’ll trust observable, measurable evidence over a collection of Bronze Age fables any day.

      • pastoredsmith

        But of course, here come the atheists. Is that atheist talking point number 6 or is it 7? So, where are your buddies? There are about 10 of you who troll this site.
        The truth is that you trust your own imagination, and it is pretty wild. And, it leads to hell. Learn and heed the truth. You won’t be nearly so foolish if you do.

        • TheSaleBoat

          You think your remarks that are full of pride are going to help others get to heaven? Pride is the FIRST deadly sin for a reason!

          • pastoredsmith

            Atheist talking point of desperation. Nothing intelligent to say so you hurl insults. Not pride, it’s called truth. Guess you guys don’t recognize truth since you have no basis for morality or truth since you make it all up as you go along. The truth will set you free, but your imaginary set of “no god” rules are already destroying you and this country.

          • TheSaleBoat

            Actually I am a devout Roman Catholic. I have had many discussions with Athiests, and the way you are trying to convey your message I was trying to say, has no love. That will never convert anyone. You have to live the life of a Christian and be loving to everyone, especially those who are lost and wandering without the God that we know and love to guide them.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            YES we must live the life of a Christian but that doesn’t mean we have to continually act like a bunch of half assed pansies either. Even Jesus Himself often rebuked people sharply because sometimes that it what it takes to WAKE PEOPLE UP

          • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

            You will most likely appreciate these sermons
            The God That Nobody Hates – Modern Day Jesus
            tinysa.com/sermon/9414036273

            The Christ Of The Bible Divides – Do You Follow Him?
            tinysa.com/sermon/914141720103

            The World Hates Christ
            tinysa.com/sermon/122712254310

            The Evolution of Pop Culture Christianity
            tinysa.com/sermon/102914233270

          • Regina Forbes

            As you know, that can be a hard thing to do when they outright insult you. The best I can do is -ignore- them and walk away. What’s the best way to reach a person who is that hurt though? Any good suggestions for our fellow believers in Christ?

          • TheSaleBoat

            Well Regina, that was truly refreshing to read. I would say try to get to the true reason they don’t want to believe in God. Almost always in my experience, they do know deep down that there is a God, but they have reasons to refuse to believe. Try to connect to them and point them to some resources to learn more. I use Our Lady of Guadalupe a lot since people say they want “proof” so often, the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe is still around and can be seen by anyone on display.

          • Regina Forbes

            Thanks for the info. My parents have a statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

          • Sientje Seinen

            but that is idolatry, the commandment is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”

          • Ronald Sylvester

            I see no wrong with pastordsmith comments. Sometimes there are times for honest truth, even though it hurts. Yes love but with truth in mind. If you followed Jesus style of presenting, he spoke the total truth when required. Trust me I have seen some very hateful comments, this comment is child’s-play compared to the ones I meet before.

          • charles freeman

            Jesus spoke truth at ALL times, not just when “required.” For crying out loud, Christianity is a simple truth, I don’t understand why people work so hard at complicating it.

          • Horatio Hornblower

            not every conversation is about conversion

          • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

            it’s because your definition of “love” is not God’s definition of “love”

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            AthEists.

          • happylada

            Where is the pride?

            OR do you NOT know the difference between FACTS and imagination?

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Rebuking you with godly words isn’t showing pride. I have seen haughty prideful people who should themselves never call themselves Christian and this person isn’t one of them. I don’t see pride in his words. He is telling you to met go of unbelief and the LIES of mere foolish men because there is only one way into heaven.

          • Gene

            Psalm 14:1 The fool has said in his heart “There is no God”. They are corrupt. They have done abominable things. There is none who do good

          • wandakate

            THE “only” way into Heaven is through JESUS CHRIST the son of GOD. JESUS said, “I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, AND NO MAN WILL COME TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME”. So, JESUS is the only way to Heaven, there is NO other way…

          • Sientje Seinen

            Jesus also said No one can come unless the Father draws him, having a yearning wanting to come the true and only God, creator of heaven and earth and it is through Christ we come to know our heavenly Father, who made Him known to us who believe.

          • charles freeman

            The “seven deadly sins” were an invention of man, there is no “list” as to which is most deadly. It is not Biblical. Sin is sin. No one above the other.

          • wandakate

            I do know that JESUS said if you have broken one of the least of these commandments of mine, you have broken them all. So, in effect He was saying SIN is SIN, now matter which one.
            All of our 10 Commandments were GOD’s moral laws, and people who break them are transgressing the laws. The transgression of the law if SIN, plain and simple.
            So, if you don’t honor your parents it’s sin.
            If you have not honored the Sabbath day it’s sin.
            If you have murdered, or stolen or broken any of the rest, you have sinned.
            Sin must be confessed, repented of and forsaken in order to be forgiven. Sinners won’t be in Heaven with GOD for eternity. There are two places, heaven and hell and we choose where we are going as GOD doesn’t send anyone to hell. We go of our own free will because satan has blinded us to the truth of GOD’s word. We have been deceived. Plain and simple again.

          • charles freeman

            Agreed.

          • Sientje Seinen

            actually there is a difference there is the sin against the body or sins of the flesh, adultery, homosexuality and the sins outside the body covetousness and stealing, not honoring parents, etc. and in Leviticus the sacrifices differed according to the sins committed.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            And there are also sins that are called “an abomination,” homosexuality, divorce and occult practices to name just 3 of them.

          • Sientje Seinen

            divorce is not called an abomination, to covet after another man’s wife could be, but since Christ said Except for the cause of fornication anyone who puts away his wife makes her an adulteress.” as for occult practices they are from satan, the same as homosexuals are ensnared by satan to do his will and mock Christ sufferings on Calvary. knowing Christ has defeated him and regained the keys to heaven and hell.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            In Malachi, it says “God hates divorce.” I’m going by that, thinking this would indicate abomination, but perhaps I’m wrong.

          • Sientje Seinen

            I guess that is why homosexuals call their parades “Gay Pride parade and wasnt Sodom and Gomorroh destroyed because of homosexuality and Pride?

        • aocvirek .

          “a collection of Bronze Age fables”. Indicates an argument from logical fallacy of appeal to age. Just because a statement, theory, idea, or account of an event is old, does not make it false, or less valid than something more recent. The reverse is also true.
          The observable and measureable evidence you vaguely site does not support your views as you apparently think it does. The assertion that God does not exist is not a deductive or scientific argument. If you believe that, you are basing your opinion on faith, not objective evidence. For someone to assault faith, while propping up his own faith with fallacious and vacuous arguments is hypocritical, and a little sad.

          • pastoredsmith

            Atheist talking point #11. Make everything about one’s understanding that God is real and that He created the universe about that person’s “faith,” or his ability to believe in the concept of God. Therefore, you reduce his “belief” to nothing but “blind faith.”
            Nice try, atheist. Won’t hold water, as is the case with all the other fools talking points (Psalm 14:1).
            You have no explanation as to the origin of the universe. Only man-made “theories” based on flawed and incomplete “facts” collected by “scientists” who get it wrong and rarely agree on these things.
            You have no basis for morality. You, in your “free thinking” mind cannot possibly come up with anything moral on your own. You have nothing by which to measure what is right and wrong. What you “believe” to be right, another atheist has “faith” that you are wrong.
            You accuse me of “propping up his own faith with fallacious and vacuous arguments,” yet it is your own wild imagination that concocted your very argument in this case, as in all others. The obvious evidence of God’s Creation is everywhere, and there is scientific proof this is the case, as cited by MOST credible scientists. It is you, atheist that is hypocritical….
            You have no hope. Nothing gives life meaning according to your messed up worldview. You have no reason to live, and you certainly have no reason to die except to end your hopelessness (you think that is what will happen, but you are wrong). You have no basis to declare anything moral based on your viewpoint. You can’t even say it is wrong to murder someone because what you think could well be the exact opposite of another atheist.
            And, you call the truth “Bronze Age fables?” BTW, that is atheist talking point #6, and one of the most common. You know, you really should stop memorizing the idiotic babblings of fools and listen to the truth. It is standing at the door of your heart, knocking and asking you to let Him in. Only in doing this can you find peace for your confused mind and messed up life….when you discover the real truth and abandon the lies you live in now.

          • aocvirek .

            If your reply was directed at me, which your quotes indicate, you may want to re-read the original comment I was replying to: “Bobby G. Hunsaker – I’ll trust observable, measurable evidence over a collection of Bronze Age fables any day.”

            Read my reply again with a more analytical eye. I am, in fact, arguing that the Atheist’s FAITH in “observable and measurable evidence” which he trusts in the existence of, but cannot provide any observations, or defend any measurements regarding, is ironic and mildly amusing.

            In my experience, arguing with Atheists using bible quotes gets nowhere. They see it no differently than using the testimonials of a fortune teller to prove that spirit mediums are legitimate. Instead, I try to use their own logic to show their hypocrisy.

            They think they stand on facts, logic, reason, and unassailable truth, and have no need for faith. The sad reality is that they rarely know any of the facts they assume exist, and are too intellectually lazy or egotistically invested to subject the “facts” they do know to objective critical evaluation.

            Worse, they use illogical arguments and lazy fallacies with regularity, oblivious to their ignorance because the assumption of intellectual high-ground makes them even more intellectually lazy.

            The end result is someone who despises FAITH, and claims that science has proven that God is a lie and the Bible is a fable. When in reality, their belief that God does not exist is illogical, and an act of blind FAITH, (much greater than a belief that a higher intelligence is required to produce orderly information observed in everything you can see), and based on false assumptions and a lack of knowledge.

            The Atheists claim that Christians are no different than palm readers and tarot card prophets, peddling superstitious nonsense. Ironically, the cults of atheism and evolution are akin to a bunch of psychic healers and crystal waving woo-woo salesmen claiming intellectual superiority and mocking the laughable ideas of such men who proclaimed their belief in God as: Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Descartes, Pascal, Newton, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, and Einstein.

            A child mocks the words of his elders, until the sting of truth leaves the same scar.

            We can only educate, and hope the child will see how the words and the evidence connect, and avoid a painful lesson instead.

        • Kristi Michael

          We need to just love them instead of making them feel foolish. People with no belief have probably been hurt somewhere along the line; probably by a corrupt religion, or someone claiming to be a Christian. Aren’t we to show them the love of Christ? That’s what my Savior says.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Love them yes but rebuke them too.

          • Faithwalker

            Amen, and to rebuke through Christ is love.

          • paultitterington_7

            Why should we love someone who hates the Lord Jesus Christ? Barmy theology.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            Why should we love someone who hates the Lord Jesus Christ?

            Very simple…though the righteous should not have concord with the (unrepentant) unrighteous, in other words one should generally avoid keeping company with them as a rule, we cant treat them like hateful beasts as the Pharisees did with sinners.

            Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

            And if you can show them love when you do encounter them then you show them that you are the better person and just maybe that will give them incentive to change for the better themselves.

            Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

          • wandakate

            It’s called planting a seed…We are to show them GOD’s love through us. I have a woman that is visiting a neighbor of mine and she is some kind of Jewish person who doesn’t believe in JESUS at all. Only that He was a good man and that’s it. She does not believe that He is the way to the FATHER GOD.
            I have not been nasty to her or avoided her. We have been chatting and I have shared JESUS love with her. She believes on GOD , but not His Son JESUS CHRIST>
            JESUS said, “the way to the FATHER is through the SON.”
            “I am the truth and the light, and “no” man can come to the FATHER but by me.” Only through JESUS can she ever get to GOD the FATHER. She thinks she can bypass JESUS and she can’t do that. Unless she confesses her sins to JESUS and repents of them and forsakes them all she isn’t going to see the Kingdom of GOD which she thinks she will go to when she dies.
            She needs salvation, which she doesn’t have. She will NOT be in the Kingdom of GOD (heaven) until she believes on JESUS.
            Who’s going to tell us about JESUS if a Christians doesn’t? She will be lost forever. I can only lead her to the water, I can’t make her drink. She will have to make her own choices.
            If she isn’t concerned for her own welfare and where she is going to spend her eternity, there is no more that I can do for her, but I tried. GOD will reward me for trying to reach this woman. She’s 70 yrs. old so she’s set in her ways, but she MUST change them or she will be eternally lost.

          • TheMatrixHasU

            ***I have not been nasty to her or avoided her.***
            Oh heaven forbid….I really wasn’t implying being nasty or avoiding in the way it might sound.
            But if you are dealing with a person who isn’t even willing to listen there does come a time when you have to leave them to their own devices and let God alone work on developing that seed. Because there is such a thing as overwatering the seed and killing it.

          • wandakate

            Okay, misunderstand here. I was just speaking in general terms saying that I have not been nasty to her or avoided her. What I should have said was that I had not condemned the woman. I have shown her a book that I am now reading called THE GREATER EXODUS by Monte W. Judah. He explains how to find the Messiah and believe that it was in fact JESUS. It has to be done on their terms intermingling the old testament with the new to show them that He was who He said He was.
            I am sorry as that comment was not personally directly to you, but was meant for whoever is reading these comments.
            I do agree if they are dealing with someone who isn’t willing to listen to leave them be and pray for them, which is all you can do at that point.
            You can lead the horse to water but can’t make it drink and that is so true with people. I just lead her down the right road. I gave her a cutting of my plant that I have and she took it. She says she’s open to listening and even reading. She said she would take the website for the book I am reading and that she would get the book and read the book so I am just praying some seeds were planted and she will find that GOD will water them. She’s not being stubborn about it or adamant she even said I am looking so that is a good sign. I think she’s coming to realize she’s been deceived or left out from the truth that will set her free.
            Don’t take that personally please…as it was just meant in general for everybody.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Wanda, what a marvelous thing that she’s willing to look into the info you provide her! Sounds very promising. You go, woman! 😉

          • wandakate

            Appreciate that, but I’m just a servant of the most high GOD…my name is Wandakate, not Wanda, just so you’ll know.

          • Sientje Seinen

            very true the Lord also tells us “Do not to throw our pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend ye”

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            “we cant treat them like hateful beasts as the Pharisees did with sinners.” Spot on.

            But recall that Jesus was the Best Person on the planet ever, and there were plenty who did not “change for the better themselves.” Someone who’s hidebound anti-God (anti-Christ) is not going to change because of US, only possibly bec. God changes their heart.

          • Lupe

            Yet Scripture says: “BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” Rom 12:20. So…

          • kitty

            Amen, Lupe!

          • paultitterington_7

            I don’t need to spend much time on this. Consider the following.

            Eccles V 8. “A time to love, and a time to hate”

            Luke 14:26 “If any man come to me, and hate not his father,..etc”

            As you can see, its not as simple as you make out. The biblical term to “hate someone” simply means to “love less”

            Sorry I did not make myself clearer.

          • wandakate

            I don’t think we love false-apostles at all, I think we try to reach them with the truth that will set them free. They are in bondage to the evil one (satan). We are to LOVE our brothers and sisters in CHRIST (those who believe on JESUS). Anybody can believe on GOD, even the demons believe on GOD and they tremble.
            We are to be in unity. There is no commonality with the saved and the unsaved NONE.

          • paultitterington_7

            My point was: it would be simply outrageous if we (Christians) were expected to love the wicked in the same way we are to love The Lord Jesus.

          • Jennifer

            what happened to Christ command to love thy enemies? Because what good does it do for you to love only those that love you? This was one of His sermons. I say yes Christ is to be loved above all, but in doing so your soul will love those regardless if they are enemies or friends. If you truly have love for Christ, you will see this and know what it is to love all people regardless of anything and love them because they are God’s children.

          • paultitterington_7

            Sounds a bit too much like “unconditional love” to me? A phrase which isn’t even in Holy Scripture!

            A question – does God hate the wicked? Remember – before you answer – that the NT God is the same God of the OT.

          • paultitterington_7

            Quote: [we are to love the wicked] “in the same way” [as we love the Lord Jesus?]

            I don’t know about you but my love to the Lord Jesus is quite different than the love I show/feel towards my enemy. Do you bow in prayer and worship before your enemies – did they die for you? Did your enemy “seal” you with the Holy Spirit? Did the comforter come because your enemy sent him?

            Quote: ” love them because they are God’s children”

            If God loves everyone equally – the wicked and the righteous – why on earth are some elect and others sent to hell? This kind of logic means the Jews should have loved Hitler despite the fact that he murdered their own children?

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            AMEN! See my above posts.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            God’s creatures, but not His “children.” The only people who are God’s CHILDREN, are those who have come to Him thru His Son. We are then Christ’s brethren (as Hebrews calls us).

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Right, Paul: in the case of fellow believers, they are family, so there’s a special kinship, which results in a different type of “love.” The others, well it’s more a matter of good will and civility.

          • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

            that guy isn’t hungry he is just an atheist fool (psalm 14:1)

          • Lupe

            LOL! Yeah, I guess so.

          • wandakate

            They don’t know if there is no teacher. They must be a messenger to carry the message to these lost souls. An atheist can come to JESUS and find salvation and be saved from the pits of hell if they want to be. If the desire is there, JESUS will meet them, he will not reject them or forsake them. ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. He came to seek and to save those that are lost. The gospel must be preached into all the world. The purpose of a Christian is to reach the lost for the Kingdom of GOD. We are His workers on earth. We are to share the message of salvation to the lost, it’s our duty to not deny CHRIST.
            “If you deny me before man, I will deny you before my FATHER who is in heaven”…JESUS said that.

          • paultitterington_7

            Is that remark is pointed at me?

          • nekulturny

            Or you could just heap burning coals upon his head and cut out the middle man, I always say.

          • Ahmed Salama

            “Why should we love someone who hates the Lord Jesus Christ?” “27”But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you…” From the sermon of the mount in Luke 6:27-28. See also in Matthew. “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you”

          • Sientje Seinen

            so if someone hates the homosexual is the homosexual to follow the word also and do good to those that hate them?

          • QuestGirl

            Since Judas hanged himself shortly thereafter, there wasn’t much time for forgiveness from his peers.

          • Muadiib

            Jesus said “love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you.” The only enemies we hate are spiritual because “the weapons of our warfare are not carnal [not physical]”.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Judas had been in the Fold, he was a traitor, so he’s different from someone who’s not yet ever believed. (In this case, the “pastor” from that “church” is a traitor, but the guy Pastor Ed Smith replied to is more likely someone who never yet believed. But yah, it’s hard to “love” naysayers. However, “agape” doesn’t mean LIKING, it simply means treating civilly.

          • Luther_1517

            Kristi, sometimes you answer the fool according to his folly, and the atheist, as the fool, sometimes needs to be shown just how foolish he is. “Loving” someone, at times, will seem like nothing but acceptance to the fool being loved, and thusly, if one feels accepted, then you are not challenging them to examine their foolish beliefs. Let’s not let our “fear” of confronting a fool atheist cause us to say it’s just best to “love” them and leave them be…

          • wandakate

            JESUS would confront them by all means and tell them about salvation and explain to them where their error is. He would not walk away and say let them be. Christians are shunning their responsibility if they just say, “well, bless you, I’ll pray for you” and then walk away. JESUS said, “If you want to be with me, you must lay down your cross and follow me”. That requires some sacrifice. Could the cost of your own discipleship and of your own salvation. They must believe and be born of the spirit. Without belief on JESUS they won’t see eternity and obedience as well. One they believe and are saved then comes the deeds and works, they will follow after. Faith without works is dead.

          • Sientje Seinen

            yes but Christ was also able to cast out demons and sometimes it is better to walk away, you can still pray for them, but let the Lord be your guide in this. as we are not the saviours of the world only Christ saves And He said “Pick up your cross and follow me” not to lay it down. It means to follow Him to the cross where we can lay our burdens down, as Peter tells us “Casting your cares upon Him, for He careth for you.”

          • wandakate

            That was written when I was tired and sleepy and I worded it wrong. Take up thy cross, not lay it down. Sorry about that. You must have thought I didn’t know what I was talking about.
            We can’t save the world and I learned that years ago even though I still want to. It hurts to see all these lost souls. We must plant the seeds if possible and then let Him do the rest. We lead and guide them, but only He can save them.

          • Wahchintonka Lightfoot

            Also, here’s a good point – Proverbs 9: 8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. 9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning. 10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.…

          • wandakate

            JESUS Himself said, “GO and sin no more”. We must confess our sins, repent of them and forsake them. Then we must strive and focus to obey the word and love, trust and have faith in JESUS. He is our only way to salvation. This world is crumbling, but He will be our foundation if we will allow Him to.

        • kitty

          Yes pastoredsmith…but the atheists’ profound lack of knowledge has a remarkable effect on believers, who now exchange information and verifiable facts from the church fathers in the 2nd and 3rd century. So, once again, the Lord pulls good from bad. Yeah God!

      • Will Weyant

        Amazing how the majority of the bible took place in the iron age.

        • TheMatrixHasU

          So what. Does that mean to you then that people were stupid superstitious cave men? They were just as intelligent and capable of learning more, as we are today

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I think they were even smarter than we are today….they had TRIBES, and, they stuck together, NO MATTER WHAT.

            Today we have INDIVIDUALS who could care less about the Majority, or, their fellow Citizens.

            So, in effect……”WE’VE REGRESSED”, while those in Jesus’ Day “PROGRESSED”.
            The only difference is – WE HAVE MORE TOYS.

        • jefe

          I’m glad we live in the wrinke-free age; one less thing to keep us from pressing on towards the goal…

      • Joel Funk

        You must be referring to that reliable collection of historical documents that were written down by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who reported supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophesies and claimed that their writings are divine rather than of human origin. We call that the Bible.

        • Sherry

          I like to think of the validity of historical documents like this. If I were a very well known person of my time and I told you I saw something would you believe most of what I said or none of what I said. The truth is most people are not liars most of the time so if you only believed half of what they said and only half of the time that is still enough personal witness to validate the truth of what was said. Any court in the country would back that up. No one ever said anything negative about the characters of any of the disciples. none have been found in any region. Isn’t that interesting? It is also interesting that people all over the world through out the ages take as fact what people of any time frame said as truth if they find even a fraction of documentation on any point!
          Im not here to argue the existence on an unseen God some one who doesn’t have spiritual eyes. First you must get spiritual eyes. That must be honestly asked for and let God Himself reveal himself to you. No one can pass their faith to you you must get it for your self and that is by asking God Are you real? and wait for an answer and see if he doesn’t touch your heart. Yes that is a challenge!!! God really loves you and people must be praying for you. And dont think that Atheist more stubborn than you haven’t been saved! And now they are the best preachers we have…

        • TheMatrixHasU

          2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Ooops, I didn’t see this when I posted the same thing above. Sorry!

      • hopewell

        Let’s talk about “observable, measurable.” In Martin Rees’ famous book he posits six numbers define the universe (the nuclear strong force, number of spatial dimensions, amount of material in the universe, etc.) Stephen Hawking said the odds of these six numbers combining they way they have is about 1 in 10^300. That’s a one with 300 zeroes after it.

        Let’s put that another way. Say you are facing a firing squad of sharpshooters. The odds of one missing is 1:1,000. So the odds of two missing would be 1/1000 x 1/1000 or one in a million. You face ten sharpshooters. The odds of them all missing would be one quadrillionth of a quadrillionth.

        They aim, fire and all miss. They aim, fire again and miss again. They miss a third time. A fourth time. In fact, they fire ten times each and miss each time.

        At some point, the reasonable explanation is that this occurence cannot be explained by stochastic probability; the game has to be rigged. Someone is slipping blanks in, or the sharpshooter are missing on purpose. But the outcome is so outlandish the logicial, reasonable explanation is that it is not left to random chance.

        Now I ask you… based on that observable, measurable evidence, who is being logical and reasonable?

        • Guenther Wolegaz

          Good stuff! Going into my keeper file. {thumbs up}

      • Palmtree

        Please explain this evidence you have Oh Atheist. How have you measured God does not exist Oh evolved one? If you think biblical stories are fables, please tell me where you stand on history books Oh smart one….

        • TheSaleBoat

          You think your remarks that are full of pride are going to help others get to heaven? Pride is the FIRST deadly sin for a reason, it leads to all other sins!

          • Faithwalker

            I do not read Pastoredsmith coming off as prideful. The atheists that are consistently on this site do not want to receive the word of God, and have said so over and over again. They come to this site to cause disorder and chaos. We have to pray for these lost souls.

          • WARIII

            Concerning how to enter Heaven, “Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

      • redcarol57

        Quantum physics is now determining that there is probably multiple dimensions (at least 10), but your brain can only perceive 3 plus time. So, good luck with that observable and measurable thing.

        • TheMatrixHasU

          Quantum physics also recognizes black holes…..which actually fit in perfectly with bible teaching and especially how this old corrupt universe will die at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ….

          Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.

          Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

          The universe will go down the toilet…..fits perfectly with the scroll allusion if you think about it as looking at a rolled up scroll from the end

      • Jeremiah Triplett

        You are the observable evidence..God is like humans jest on a greater scale. You live in reality, and God lives in a greater reality…the big difference between Him and Humans is that humans are born and can die, whereas God was never born nor created and can never die. that and speak things into existence! But one day, you will have your proof.

      • Horatio Hornblower

        William Lane Craig

      • Martin Walsh

        And your observable measurable evidence for abstract entities is what exactly? How about Logic or Reason itself?

      • old hockey fan

        Bobby, you say Bronze Age fables, but it is interesting that these “fables” as you call them were written by 40 different authors over a 1500 year period and these authors were from shepherds to Kings to fishermen, unknown to each other yet their writings all dovetail together to make the history and the foretelling of one man named Jesus Christ. We believe that Plato was creditable by only knowing of a few things he wrote about yet even though the Bible has been proven to be right in over 1200 separate instances we do not believe it. Sometimes I think that it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian.

      • Lupe

        Actually, I think, you don’t. You probably believe in the theory of evolution. Punctuated equalibrium or phyletic gradualism are both UNPROVABLE theories. They can’t be measured or observed. It takes a million times more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in the HISTORICALLY proven and accurate Bible.

      • MeanieHead

        Actually, if you watch the History Channel, there is observable, measurable evidence of Christ’s existence. Booyah!

      • xaade

        That’s fine, do that. But don’t claim you’re Christian. Stay on topic please.

      • Muadiib

        “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.”

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        Bobby, one of Christ’s disciples (Thomas) was a lover of evidence as well:
        “So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But He said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and
        put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His
        side, I will not believe.”

        Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and
        see My hands; and put out your hand, and place it in My side. Do not
        disbelieve, but believe.”

        The only solid reason we Christians have for our belief is His having come in the flesh (something our 5 senses can actually relate to) and His Resurrection from the dead. Peter says, “We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.”

        Paul puts it this way:

        “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain…And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.”

        It all hinges on the Resurrection.

      • Joel

        Ah but is your evidence testable and repeatable…;)

        How come Mt. St. Helen’s rocks don’t carbon test to 36 years old??

        Well, it’s because the argument is like a merry-go-round.

    • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

      ….. The God That Nobody Hates – Modern Day Jesus
      tinysa.com/sermon/9414036273

      The Christ Of The Bible Divides – Do You Follow Him?
      tinysa.com/sermon/914141720103

      The World Hates Christ
      tinysa.com/sermon/122712254310

      The Evolution of Pop Culture Christianity
      tinysa.com/sermon/102914233270

  • bowie1

    He makes no sense – if he lacks a belief in God then that would define him as an atheist. Otherwise, at most, he might be considered a moralist.

    • TJefferson44

      God would consider him a fool!

      • bowie1

        He is also part of the Jesus Seminar – Westar Institute where they opine on what they think are Jesus words – or not. They make a career out of denying God’s Word.

        • Russell Sayce

          And the people reward them handsomely for doing it, while pretending to be followers of Christ….
          Ouch…..That’s gonna leave a mark..!!

  • D Sims

    “Shuck first came out as an unbeliever in 2011, generating controversy as to how one could serve as a minister and not believe in the Bible.”
    What is new about this? It’s as common as apple pie here in America. Over 80% of America claims they believe in God. How many of them follow what He says?

    • Russell Sayce

      The other 20%.

      Up is down, in is out…..you know…

  • Anita Johnston

    … and He will say, “I never knew you. “

    • Sientje Seinen

      unless you are sealed with His holy spirit knowing that Christ sealed the new covenant with His blood, Jeremiah 31 verse 31

  • Wendyl

    The Presbyterians has seriously gone to Hell. First they okay same-sex marriages, now there’ no God. Stupid beyond belief.

    • Susan Sennett

      Hope you realize he does not represent all Presbyterians. I belong to a PCA and we are a Bible based Church..If you are familiar with the differences,… t would be worth looking into. PCA upholds all the Bible Principle and Gospel. PCUSA are getting off the charts Liberal. Please don’t think this is all Presbyterian churches!

      • Wendyl

        You’re right. PCUSA is the one that’s foregoing the Scripture in order to placate the world. PCA is far more conservative and bible-based.

      • texastarheel

        Exactly…one can no longer say, “I’m Presbyterian” anymore. Note this fellow is from the PCUSA branch.

    • MammaBee1941

      I happen to be a Presbyterian, and he does not represent all of us. Quite the contrary, he represents himself and has no business being in the Presbyterian church or a Presbyterian minister. We believe in the one-true, living, triune God: God the Father, God the Son, and God Holy Spirit. We believe that Jesus Christ is God’s son, and our savior. The Presbyterian ministers I know, all follow and preach right out of the Bible. I prepare bulletins for two churches, and the pastors preach their sermons right from the Bible.

      • Wendyl

        You’re right. He doesn’t represent all of the Presbyterians as well as other more conservative, bible-based denominations.

      • Danny Ocean

        All denominations are under attack. As a Catholic I believe this is satan busy influencing those he controls and to scatter the lost away from God. Pray for them.

      • texastarheel

        The Presbyterian Church split here in the United States. Some of them left the original group to start a new liberal sect that changed doctrine to suit themselves and the unfortunate changing morals of society.

        • Guenther Wolegaz

          Right, and the group that remained faithful to God’s Word is called the Orthodox Presbyterian (Gresham Machen’s “baby”).

  • jmichael39

    And I find your rejection of Jesus Christ, the Bible and the very existence of God to be offensive. I guess we’ll just have to accept that we offend each other and more along. I guess when the human mind just can’t comprehend something, it must not exist. Good luck with that.

    • Lisa

      Why would you be offended?

      • Mr Loh

        Lisa, if someone came along and denies everything about you, everything you stand convicted for, your loved ones, parents, your life, your beliefs your existence and everything about you…saying it doesn’t exist you’re just making it up… I would very much doubt you would smile and not be offended by it…. Get it?

        • Lisa

          Actually no I don’t get it. His not believing doesn’t negate my belief. So I don’t understand why his unbelief has that big of an effect in your life.

          • redcarol57

            You’re right – it doesn’t negate your faith. But he’s misappropriating the name, meaning and hence attempting to redefining what a Christian is. That is annoying and intellectually dishonest on his part.

          • Lisa

            A lot of people have done the same thing which is why Jesus told us to be on the alert because false prophets will come.

          • Guest

            Yes….I’ve heard that too.

            that’s called IRONY.

            “Lisa Guest • 24 days ago

            Thanks for helping me understand. There is no fear in the Lord by these people because if they did they wouldn’t act like they do.
            Don’t harden your heart to them though-be patient knowing that God doesn’t want anyone to perish.

          • Mr Loh

            err..who said anything about others beliefs negating your beliefs? And I never said anything about someone’s unbelief having a big impact on my life either. That is presumptuousness. Frankly I don’t care who believes what. And good on you and anyone who has a different belief system. Makes for a colourful world and so forth. If you haven’t already realise, this debate is NOT about the impact of someone else’s beliefs on one’s own belief system. It is about the denial and rejection of someone else’s identity. And that IS offensive. Slavery, negros, does that ring a bell? Maybe not. The issue of GOD and faith may be just an urban legend, fairy tale myth to you. To others, it is everything. Its their core value and reason of existence. Dont they have a right to be offended? Why cant you let them be? Why do you have to impose and question them for feeling this way? Secondly, who ever said that just because you’ve been offended it must have a “big effect on your life”? No big deal. Different strokes, different folks. Just move on. If you dont , then thats called jihad!

          • Lisa

            Haha you are such a drama king. It’s hard to take you seriously you are so over the top-jihad? Really? Lol! Here I’m thinking his self deception in thinking he’s a Christian without believing in Jesus affects his eternity not mine. His saying that he doesn’t believe doesn’t affect my identity or my reason for living because I have faith in Jesus and it doesn’t depend on whether or not anyone else believes and it isn’t gonna hurt my feelings if they don’t. But then I guess that’s just me.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            This is an interesting “Thread”.

            On one hand, people here are claiming that “THEY ARE OFFENDED”, by either the Actions, or Words of another person.

            And, on the other hand, they are offended THAT “YOU’RE NOT OFFENDED – WITH THEM”.

            So, I guess that NOW they are “Doubly Offended”.

            Seems like an oxymoron situation they’ve put themselves into.

            Maybe they should all go “THROW STONES” at all the people that “OFFEND THEM”??

            And, especially at the one’s that “Don’t AGREE” with WHY they “Should Be Offended” in the first place.

            If such people were TRULY “CHRISTIANS”, then they would already know WHAT Jesus would say about this “conundrum” they find themselves in.

            In addition to what Jesus would say, we also have what God Himself said to EZEKIEL, which was; “If the people listen, let them listen, if they refuse to listen, let them refuse to listen”…..as follows;

            Ezekiel 3:27

            “But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says.’ Whoever will listen let them listen, and whoever will refuse let them refuse; for they are a rebellious people.”

            (seems simple enough to me….let’s see what Jesus said)

            After Jesus had sent out SEVENTY TWO Disciples to “SPREAD THE GOOD NEWS”, He said virtually the SAME THING AS IN EZEKIEL, but, this time “IT CAME WITH A WARNING”…..

            Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two
            LUKE 10

            1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

            5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

            8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

            In “Other Words”…Jesus simply said “WIPE THE DUST OFF YOUR FEET, AND MOVE ON – THESE PEOPLE AREN’T WORTH IT”!!!

            I guess the “MORAL” of my story is that IF IT DOESN’T OFFEND JESUS & GOD to let people “Think What They Want To Think”, then “WHY SHOULD IT OFFEND YOU”???

            If you are “Right with God”, then you should already know what the “OUTCOME WILL BE FOR THOSE WHO ARE NOT RIGHT WITH GOD”………anything else out of their mouths is not only CHILDISH, but, it’s also very VICIOUS & WICKED, and they have brought SHAME to “THE NAME OF GOD”.

            Lisa….you have done well to speak up, and to bring to THEIR attention the absurdities they are “Proudly Boasting”.

          • Lisa

            Haha! Great verses! I can’t tell what’s more absurd-that Mr Loh and JMichael are so offended or that they have so many up votes of people who are also offended? How are they gonna make it when persecution comes and a whole lot of people are gonna offend them and hate them and ridicule them?

          • Mr Loh

            sigh… you are arguing about point A which I have no issue with and agree with you. I am way over on the other hill at point Z which you are just so blinded and cannot grasp. The reason is clear. Its written all over your responses so far since your train of thought say a lot about you. Aspergers maybe? But that’s giving you a little too much benefit of the doubt. Id say pride is your issue. Who makes it when persecution comes is not for you to say nor judge. This discussion is fruitless. said enough.

          • Lisa

            What is point A that you agree with me about?

          • Marilyn Ensrud

            Thank you Lisa and also Jerry for sharing all you have. Yes, it is through love and forgiveness that will speak to the heart. I think that those who fight back against a non believer may feel they need to defend God as anyone may do if their own family were being attacked but what they fail to see is that God is fully capable. He does not ask us to attack but to show the power of his love with Grace and Love. God’s words speak for themselves. Our actions when negative will only be mirrored back to us but the Light of God’s love often leaves those who want to argue speechless. You may not see a response from Mr Loh and that is ok because God is speaking to his heart even if he hasn’t realized it yet. Life in itself teaches us if we just look and learn.. How wonderful it feels to a parent when their child raises their arms to us to hold them yet we are often mocked for raising our hands to our Heavenly Father. We forgive our children when they do wrong because of Love yet attack our neighbor for what we perceive as wrong. Every experience of every day is a lesson if we would only see. We live in a time where many feel lost and hopeless, hopelessness creates fear and fear creates anger. Unfortunately too often, all people see is the anger and not the pain/fear behind the anger. Pride will not allow many to admit their fear so feeling challenged their anger grows. Arguing with them only fuels the fire where as Love breaks down the anger. We may not see that happen but again, we are asked to Love “the greatest gift”. What happens inside the hearts of others is in God’s hands. I have been guilty of ‘defending’ God myself until he speaks to my heart and reminds me my place is not to judge or correct others out of anger but to Love them where they are at, pray for them and for myself as well that God will get us where he wants us. We are an instrument for him to use when and how he chooses, we must learn to wait on him for direction and to share the love he demonstrated to us all. God bless you and Jerry for showing by example. 🙂

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Hi Marilyn.
            I truly appreciate what you have said, and, I’ve just noticed this today.
            I would’ve responded sooner if it was addressed to me, but, I’m glad that I did come across it, and I want to say “Thank-You” for your kind words, and your inspirations that should help to lead “others” to the undeniable fact that “God Alone Is In Control” of all things.
            I’ve found that the more people love to “Preach”, especially to Fellow Christians, the “Less They Know” about God’s AWESOME POWERS.

            It reminds me of a person “Trying to learn to play music”…..they’ve practiced their entire lives, they’ve read all the books, they’re masters at READING & WRITING MUSIC, and, they can also “Teach Music”, and how to read it to “Others”.
            Some might call those people “Experts In Their Field Of Music”.
            But, there is still something that is “Lacking”…….THEY ARE EITHER “TONE DEAF”, or have “NO PASSION WHEN THEY PLAY”, and, most of all – THEY CAN NEVER PLAY LIKE “BEETHOVEN”.
            For that matter…..ANYONE CAN LEARN TO “PLAY MUSIC”, but, not everyone can sound like a “CHOIR OF ANGELS”.
            It’s EASY to “Beat A Drum”…..but, can you KEEP THE BEAT??

            I guess what I’m trying to say is; “THEY HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE, BUT, THEY LACK THE PASSION TO PUT IT TO GOOD USE”. And, when they PLAY – it actually HURTS OUR EARS.
            The same can be said for people that love to sing at “KARAOKE NIGHT”……yes, they KNOW ALL THE WORDS…..But, they can never sound like “ELVIS PRESLEY”……..they can even “WEAR THE SAME CLOTHES AS ELVIS”…….but, still, THEY ARE NOT ELVIS….not even CLOSE.
            Regardless of all that….they still THINK THEY SOUND TERRIFIC!!!!
            They may even “Get Some Applause”, which makes them feel good about themselves, and thinking to themselves; “I AM GOOD”!!
            The fact is – NO ONE WANTS TO HURT THEIR FEELINGS BY TELLING THEM THEY ACTUALLY “STUNK UP THE JOINT”, and that they “Can’t even carry a tune”.

            But, none of that STOPS THEM from “attempting to sound like they know what they’re doing, and that they think they’re doing it well” – Does it?
            Or, maybe THEY JUST DON’T CARE that they can’t SING or PLAY MUSIC…….they will do it anyway.

            It’s the misconception of the delusion that “YOU HAVE SOME AWESOME POWER” that perverts what it is you’re trying to do in the first place.
            Simply put – THEY DON’T HAVE A CLUE.
            Yet, time after time, they still attempt to do the IMPOSSIBLE.
            Either you’ve “GOT IT”, or, “YOU DON’T”.

            This is where Christians are being fooled into believing that “THEY POSSES THE POWER” that is reserved only for God.
            They proclaim WHO IS GOING TO HELL, and who isn’t.
            They proclaim that THEIR RELIGION IS RIGHT, and everyone else’s is wrong.
            They state with FULL AUTHORITY that THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT JESUS DID, AND WHY HE DID IT…..because “God Revealed It To Them”.
            They also KNOW, WITHOUT ANY “DOUBTS”, WHAT’S COMING NEXT, as if it was THEM THAT MADE THE PLAN.
            They KNOW ALL THE RULES FOR “GETTING INTO HEAVEN”, and, unless YOU AGREE, – YOU’RE NOT GETTING IN.
            No doubt because THEY ALONE “POSSES THE KEYS TO HEAVEN”, much like “THEY SOUND GREAT WHEN THEY’RE SINGING”.
            The are QUICK TO POINT OUT YOUR MISTAKES, because “They have a MASTERS DEGREE in THEOLOGY”……..the same as the person who “Practiced their entire lives learning to play music”, THEY ALONE POSSES THAT COVETED KNOWLEDGE.

            After all this, a person must step back, and compare themselves to these EXPERTS, and wonder; “How did they get to know the Mind Of God so well”??
            You must ask yourself…”What have I MISSED in my search for the TRUTH that makes me so much dumber than they are”???

            You say to yourself..”I’ve read that SAME BOOK for almost my entire life – surely I have the SAME KNOWLEDGE that they have”!!
            How is it that THEY are able to “Read Something”, and come out with a totally DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW”??

            The answer is the same as what I said in the BEGINNING…….
            “THEY ONLY THINK THEY KNOW”…..’THEY ONLY THINK THEY ARE MAKING SENSE”…….”THEY ONLY THINK THEY ARE RIGHT”.

            Why?

            Because IT SOUNDS GOOD TO THEM.

            That still doesn’t change the fact that THEY ARE STILL HURTING MY EARS, because they don’t sound good at all.

            It takes HUMILITY to “admit” that YOU REALLY AREN’T THAT SMART, OR KNOWLEDGEABLE, and that if you found some “SECRET KNOWLEDGE”, which is NOT IN THE BIBLE, then, ALL YOU ARE DOING IS “PRETENDING YOU ARE ELVIS PRESLEY”…..simply because YOU KNOW ALL THE WORDS to HIS SONGS.

            But, you don’t “POSSES HIS POWERS, HIS PASSIONS, HIS PERFECTION”…..yet, you are passing yourself off as “ELVIS PRESLEY”.

            That is an INSULT to “Elvis”.
            It also makes you LOOK & SOUND LIKE A FOOL.

            I suppose if I simply said: ‘THEIR THOUGHTS ARE NOT HIS THOUGHTS” in my reference to THEM “Not Knowing The Mind Of God”, or even “The Power Of God”, then that would just be the UMPTEENTH THOUSANDTH TIME THAT’S BEEN SAID.

            What good does it do to “remind them” that THEY ARE NOT GOD?
            It will NEVER stop them from “ACTING LIKE GOD” in their “ALL KNOWING & ALL SEEING FASHION”.

            It won’t stop them from saying “I’M RIGHT & YOU’RE WRONG”, because THEY THINK THEY ARE “EXPERTS”…..just like the person that “Knows How To Play Music – But, They Will Never Be Beethoven”.

            In their attempts to “Preach The Word Of God”, they’ve FORGOTTEN that GOD ALONE KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING – AND “HE IS ABLE”.
            They’ve forgotten that they are to “PREACH THE GOOD NEWS” that “Salvation Has Come”.

            They’ve lost SIGHT of the fact that “IT’S ABOUT GOD – NOT THEM”.

            It is “Their PRIDE” that stops them from being HUMBLE.

            What, then, is left to “teach these experts”????

            Maybe we should simply STOP APPLAUDING, then maybe they might realize that they should’ve never gotten up on that stage, and attempted to sing like Elvis, and come out sounding like “Tiny Tim”.

            It’s easy to be CRUEL, and attempt with WORDS to “Insult” someone.
            But, when someone is getting up on the stage for the first time, and they are doing their best (even though the sound like crap) to “Sound Like Elvis”, and they know all the words – then we should at least give them CREDIT FOR GETTING THE WORDS RIGHT.
            If they are saying something that is BIBLICAL, then there should not be ANY attempts at making that person LOOK STUPID.

            We should all remember the first time WE GOT ON STAGE, and, as long as we GOT THE WORDS RIGHT, then that should be enough.
            And everyone should STOP PRETENDING TO BE “ELVIS”, and accept the fact that WE ARE NOT “KINGS”…..nor will we EVER have that kind of power, or, passion.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            >smiling<

            Indeed, how will they make it when the Wrath comes?

            Forget about the persecution – they are already suffering through that, and, because "They Suffer", they make sure that "Others" must suffer WITH THEM.

            It's simply a case of "Misery enjoying company".

            The true question is; "What will THEY do IN THE END", as our Faithful Prophet Jeremiah asks;

            Jeremiah 5:31

            The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?

            The simplicity of God's Holy Word they can neither see, nor hear, as their hearts are bent on doing evil.
            It is their own Bias Prejudices, otherwise known as "Coveting", or, "Jealousy", that will almost always be their downfall.
            They cannot stand it when someone isn't as heartless as they are, because it reflects back on them their own human nature, which they can't bear to see. It's only bearable to them if they KNOW that "others" are suffering the same way that they are suffering – this is their only comfort. This is how they feel they are "Not Alone", and, it's what gives them "License", and "Justification" for all their ACTIONS & WORDS.

            In other words….if everyone else is doing it, then it should be okay for me as well, for surely; God won't destroy "All Of Us".
            What makes them even more "Certain" of their LICENSE is that THEY DO IT IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

            Therefore, they worship Him with their lips, but, their hearts are far, far away from Him.
            And, in the Lord's Day they will say; "Lord, didn't we do many works IN YOUR NAME, didn't we cast out demons IN YOUR NAME, didn't we heal the sick IN YOUR NAME?
            And in "that Day" the Lord Jesus will respond; "Away from me you evil doers – I do not KNOW YOU"!!

            The guy Mr Loh asked YOU Lisa; "GET IT"??
            Sadly THEY don't "get It"……if they did "get it", then they would KNOW that it's ALL ABOUT THE HEART.

            This is WHY they are suffering because of their OWN MOUTHS…..for out of the Mouth comes what is IN THE HEART. Therefore by their own mouths they have condemned themselves with every time they SEEK WHAT IS EVIL upon their "Brethren", and they CONDEMN THOSE WHO ARE "NOT LIKE THEM"……as if they had any power to condemn anyone but themselves with their mouths.

            All Judgement belongs to God – since when did we get such power???

            Stay well Lisa, and God Bless You – Always!!

          • Lisa

            Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Have a wonderful day!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Thank you Lisa, I accept with humble humility the Grace & Peace from God you gave me, and, I’ll see your “Have a wonderful day”, and RAISE YOU a – “Have A Blessed Eternity in the loving bosom of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ”!

            😉

          • Lisa

            🙂
            Thank you! I can’t up you-except to say that I hope the Lord brings you safely into His heavenly kingdom.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I FOLD…you have a greater hand than me…., I mean a “greater heart”.
            The “TREASURE” is truly yours to claim – You’ve earned it, and you shall eat & dine with Him, and you shall know His New Name!!

          • Lisa

            Won’t that be so amazing? It’s breathtaking to think about-isnt it?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I hope that I meet you there at HIS TABLE.
            Then we can both be marveled at His New Creation, and sing our Hallelujah’s for what the Lord has done!!

            Amen, and Amen!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            And YES!!!…it is breathtaking to even contemplate the wonders of what is yet to come!

          • Lisa

            No doubt! To one day see the Lord and be with Him always-what a glorious day that awaits!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            That’s the reason that PSALM 27 means so much to me.

            There’s several verses that proclaim the “Glory Of The Lord”, of course, but, the MAIN ONE that I truly love is this….

            4 One thing I ask from the Lord,
            this only do I seek:
            that I may dwell in the house of the Lord
            all the days of my life,
            to gaze on the beauty of the Lord
            and to seek him in his temple.

            That’s ALL I truly want – “To GAZE UPON THE BEAUTY OF THE LORD”.

            It looks like that’s what you want too!!

          • Lisa

            I want both-to gaze upon His beauty and to dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life! Nothing can compare to that!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Exactly.

            That’s the only thing that’s important.
            That’s what we ALL want.
            That’s what loving God is all about.

            I’m just saddened by the many people that make this such a “Hard Thing”, with all their bickering.
            The wicked will always be wicked, and, we know what to expect from them. But, the one’s that “claim” they are Christians, are the same one’s doing most of the fighting, as you can see from above.

            The Lord has made this SOOOOOOO SIMPLE.
            The Lord has done ALL the work…..all we need to do is HAVE FAITH, AND BELIEVE, and the rest “will follow”.

            The saddest part is that THEY want it ALL “NOW”.

            But, if you read the LAST WORDS of that same PSALM, it clearly says; “WAIT FOR THE LORD, BE STRONG, AND TAKE HEART, AND WAIT FOR THE LORD”.

            They make me very sad because they “can’t wait”, and that’s what drives them to do things IN ERROR, as they have no “patience”.

            I love talking with you, Lisa…..YOU ARE NOT LIKE “THEM”!!!

          • Lisa

            It has been eye opening to see all the christians here talking about meaningless things. Do they even read their Bibles? Surprised that the guy in the article says what he says. I just think why are you surprised? Offended like he personally insulted them? That’s just silly. Then some of them say well wait till He sees God! That makes them happy knowing God will say away from Me, I never knew you. I don’t claim to love this guy like some people will say I love the sinners hate the sin, but it does make me sad to think they would be happy God sends the guy to hell. I’m sad that the guy is so deceived and that will be his fate unless God opens His eyes. Then how many are in that congregation?
            It is simple-believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Not tough. He does all the work-not us.
            Are you talking about kingdom now stuff? That’s where Christians think they need to usher in God’s kingdom on earth? I don’t understand that thinking either! Why does anyone think God needs our help? Ah well….
            Thank you! I am glad I’m not like them. And I enjoy talking with you too! I was wondering what your name is though, but I realize that you probably like your anonymity so you don’t have to tell me if you don’t want to.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            First…my name is “Jerry Mitchell”, and I’m not in the hiding business. I used that screen name to bring attention to Revelation 5:5….”The Lion of the Tribe of Judah HAS OVERCOME, and He is WORTHY to Open The Scrolls”.

            The picture you see, I’m NOT proud to say is on my Right Arm, as I shouldn’t have defiled my body – but, there is a place in the Bible that says that “In that day men will WRITE ON THEIR HANDS THE NAME OF THE LORD, OR, THE GOD OF JACOB”…..

            Isaiah 44:5

            Some will say, ‘I belong to the Lord’; others will call themselves by the name of Jacob; still others will write on their hand, ‘The Lord’s,’ and will take the name Israel.

            ——————————–
            That’s the only way I can “justify what I did” to my arm.
            And, on top of the Lion is a “SCROLL” with this written on it “REV 5.5”.
            Now, if anyone knows the Bible, then they would “know the secret of what my tattoo means”……otherwise, I won’t tell them.
            But, I take PRIDE in the fact that JESUS DID OVERCOME ALL, as without Him doing what He did – we would never have LIFE.

            So, that’s why I put it as my “screen name”…..only in the HOPES that someone will get the TRUTH about what Jesus Actually did “For Us”. To me, nothing is more important, and, I am completely IN DEBT to my Lord, who laid down His life for us all.
            it also serves as a “reminder” of who I BELONG TO, not that I need much prompting.

            Next…..to really identify the “Absurdity” in the comments being made here, one only has to ask ONE QUESTION – “Why would anyone READ THIS if they know they are GOING TO BE OFFENDED”??

            Did someone PUT A GUN TO THEIR HEADS, AND FORCE THEM TO “READ IT”??

            That’s what makes their comments even MORE ASININE.

            The “TITLE” clearly says “THIS MAN DENIES JESUS CHRIST”!!
            What were they “Expecting to see”??????????

            That’s like going to an ADULT PORN STORE, AND COMPLAINING TO THE OWNER THAT “THEY ARE OFFENDED”.
            The simple reply from the “Owner” would be; “WHY DID YOU COME IN”???

            Lastly, I came “IN” because I follow what YOU write, and I get to see YOUR COMMENTS, and in curiosity, I look to see WHO & WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.

            I don’t do that to come “IN” as a Knight In Shining Armour, no.
            I do it BECAUSE I’M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY, and to whom you are saying it TO.

            In other words, I can’t help getting involved when a bunch a ravening wolves surround an innocent sheep…….that’s when I am reminded that I am a “Christian Soldier”, a Warrior For Christ. Not so much to put down a wolf, but, to possibly enlighten an arrogant ignorant that speaks without thinking, and without “Biblical BACK-UP” to sustain their animosity towards the TRUTH, which YOU ALWAYS BRING.

            I know how it feels when everyone is against you. Jesus knows that too.
            My greatest reward is knowing that there are people that don’t act like CATTLE, and they don’t just “ACCEPT THINGS THEY’VE HEARD, WITHOUT PROOF”.

            You are one of those people……and, you have no idea how RARE you truly are.

            Certainly we can LAUGH AT THIS ENTIRE CALAMITY.
            But, we cannot laugh at IGNORANCE, nor at FALSE TEACHINGS….these are the WORST KIND OF SINS AGAINST THE LORD.

            I am a “Servant Of God”, and of Man.

            When it says; “I HAVE CAST OUT DEMONS”….that means I fought with, and OVERCOME the WICKED.
            When it says “I HAVE DONE MANY WORKS”….that means I have TESTIFIED TO THE TRUTH.
            When it says “I HAVE HEALED THE SICK”….that means I have helped to ENLIGHTEN THEM.

            But, none of these things have I done on my own. It is only because the Lord calls me to TESTIFY, to ENLIGHTEN, to OVERCOME that I do these things…..as these are “The Works” that God has called us to do…..
            “To LOVE Mercy, to ACT Justly, to WALK Humbly with my God”.
            For to “LOVE, ACT, & WALK = LAW” ( MICAH 6:8)
            This is THE REQUIREMENT OF MY GOD.

            What kind of servant would I be if I just IGNORED the suffering?

            No one is SUFFERING MORE than those who JUDGE OTHERS, and want others to SUFFER.

            But, like I said….WHY DID THEY COME IN HERE?
            It was NOT to be “offended”, as they CLAIM…..it was to OFFEND.
            Why else would they be here in the first place, if not to RIDICULE OTHERS??

            That is an INJUSTICE I can never walk away from.

            But, when I saw that you gave them the PROPER ANSWERS, I knew there was nothing for me to do here except to say “WELL DONE, LISA – WELL DONE”!!

          • Lisa

            Thank you for sharing, Jerry. I am glad to know your name now. I’m humbled that you care about what I have to say. I guess I don’t really know how rare a person I am, I just know that I love the Lord with all my heart, my soul and my mind and I ask for Him to help me know what to say to people. I have enjoyed and appreciate your comments, you are so kind to me always and I am very grateful to you for your kindness!

            I haven’t thought of them coming in to be offended but then I don’t think like that. The funny thing was I was going to make a different comment but saw that someone else said something similar and then I noticed JMichael’s comment and wondered why he was so offended. There does seem to be a lot of christians here who are very ignorant of the Bible to where I’m wondering if I am even talking to a Christian. They seem to just want to argue with you and be right. That’s so disappointing to me.

            I am very glad that you love the Lord and are His servant and that you take God how he should be taken-seriously and reverently. I know God will bless you for you love for Him! I feel my reply to you is so inadequate since you shared so much-but I want you to know that I’m truly grateful to be able to talk with you, Jerrry!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Truly, it is me that should be thanking you Lisa.
            And Yes!! You are as rare is the tiny path that even the camel is unable to go through…….it’s called “THE EYE OF THE NEEDLE”, and, just imagine how FEW the people are that find it?
            No one knows all the answers, but, everyone knows the Path.
            It’s a matter of determination, faith, & trust that God will “Guide You Through It” that you are able to come out through the other side of that Gate, which is Jesus Christ Himself.

            I have NO CLUE where this roads leads me, but, as in the words of the 23rd Psalm (most famous of all Psalms), it simply says;
            “You made me to lie down in green pastures, you restore my soul. YOU GUIDE ME IN THE PATH of Righteousness – FOR YOUR NAME’S SAKE”.

            So, even when I’m in that dark place, which is the VALLEY OF DEATH, and I don’t have any CLUE where I’m heading……I trust in what YOU SAID TO ME LORD……”That you will GUIDE ME FOR YOUR NAME’S SAKE”.

            Perhaps He guided me to YOU?

            It’s good for my soul to know that I am not alone, and that not everyone is wicked, or, halfhearted;

            I was losing faith that any even existed….THAT’S HOW RARE YOU ARE!!

            Thanks again for your kinds words, your truth, and mutual respect – 3 virtues rarely found in 1 person.
            So, it is I that is grateful.
            And, I look forward to speaking more with you, and exploring the senseless things that people say to you in an effort to TAKE YOU OFF YOUR PATH.

            ~ Be strong & take heart, and wait for the Lord ~

            Have a great evening Lisa, and stay BLESSED!!!

          • Lisa

            I am glad that God guided me to you so that you didn’t lose faith and thought you were all alone. I know what it is to feel alone in the faith too. That path is more narrow then I thought! That is what they are doing isn’t it? Trying to take us off our paths? I’ll remember that-thanks!
            God bless you and keep you Jerry-have a wonderful evening yourself!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes, that is what they’re doing.
            Remember that the condemned want “company”, and that they are “Jealous”.
            When you speak, there is a “Bright Light” that surrounds you, and they are all attracted to it, and, they want it. But, since they can’t have it, then, their only other alternative is to make sure YOU don’t get it either.
            It’s one of the purest of evils that exist in the world, even from the beginning when Satan was Jealous of Adam & Eve, and he did entice them to REBEL against God.

            If they didn’t feel condemned, or even guilty for what they’ve done in this life, then they would NEVER wish any harm, nor any agitation in another person’s life.

            Remember that Satan is the ACCUSER……so, when they “accuse” they are doing their father’s work.

            We have already been Judged by God…God already HAS A BOOK OF LIFE……that’s WHY Jesus paid the price FOR US, because the Sheep know their Father’s Voice, and, the Father KNOWS HIS SHEEP, and He paid the PRICE TO “RANSOME US BACK”……it is the one’s that can’t HEAR our Father’s Voice that have much to FEAR, neither have they obeyed His Holy Word……..therefore, to “ACQUIT” themselves, they must IMPLICATE SOMEONE ELSE……that is “THEIR WAY OF THINKING”…..they think like “earthly Humans”, but, God thoughts are NOT their thoughts, and His ways are NOT their ways…..but, will that “STOP THEM FROM BEING HUMANS”???

            Therefore they do what THEY HAVE LEARNED from “This World”, which is RULED BY THE “EVIL ONE”, and think their “HEARTS CANNOT BE READ BY GOD”.

            They were Judged before they were even IN THE WOMB.
            God already KNOWS.
            As God once asked;….Does the MAKER OF EYES NOT SEE?, Does the CREATOR OF EARS NOT HEAR??

            God knows all, and sees all…….I think the saddest part is that these “Christian POSERS” already KNOW that God knows all about their wicked ways.

            So….what is left for them, or for Satan?

            ACCUSE, ACCUSE, ACCUSE…..CURSE, CURSE, CURSE.

            That is all they JOY they will ever receive, they already HAVE THEIR REWARD.

            Christians are NOT like these, neither is our Father & Savior, who want only to LOVE,
            Do you hear LOVE in their words??
            If not, then there is no love there, or, it has been lost or stolen.
            Either way, they do not BELIEVE. For if they did, they would TRULY “FEAR THE LORD”…..obviously they think it’s all some sort of JOKE.

            I have no pity for those who turn their backs on God, or, their FELLOW MAN…….there is NO FRUIT ON THEIR TREES.

          • Lisa

            Thanks for helping me understand. There is no fear in the Lord by these people because if they did they wouldn’t act like they do.
            Don’t harden your heart to them though-be patient knowing that God doesn’t want anyone to perish.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Those were God’s EXACT WORDS….”I desire that no one should perish”!!

            That’s how I know that I’m not talking to a Christian. I’m talking to someone who is pretending to be a Christian.

            Trust me Lisa, it doesn’t harden my heart….if anything, it makes me wonder when, and how they lost their faith.
            The frustration comes only when they refuse to even “listen”, yet, they want to shove their words down my throat, as if I’ve done something wrong.

            That’s what they do to you as well.
            And they will do it to anyone they can dominate with what they call “intelligence”….never knowing that God has made that their FOLLY.

            I’m not trying to preach Lisa, you’re in no need of that, nor is that my desire.
            All I’m really saying is “The Wolves Are Out There”.
            I know you can defend yourself, I’ve seen that firsthand.

            It’s their DECEPTION that I’m trying to warn you about.
            They really do “Wear Sheep’s Clothing”.

            Good Night for now, and God Bless You.
            You need no help from me truthfully.
            I’m glad that we can talk about these things though, because I find it everywhere I go, which is why it’s so REFRESHING to see that you’re certainly not like any of these!!!

          • Lisa

            I was just thinking of you because you said that you have no pity for them. Have a good evening Jerry!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes Lisa, I did say that, but not in the context that you may be thinking. I feel that these people make “Conscious Choices” to deliberately pervert the Word Of God.
            And, for some reason, known only to them, they enjoy causing “Conflict” among fellow Christians.
            I guess you can call it; “they enjoy taking wings off of flies”, and, that it’s more of a GAME to them, rather than trying to “uplift” a fellow Christian.

            They are otherwise known as “TROLLS” who go around “looking for prey”. Remember this conversation is about agitators, and their senseless words.
            I can’t pity someone that is doing that sort of thing PURPOSELY. And, if they are doing it “sub-consciously”, well, that just shows me what they “Really Think”, only they don’t realize that they’ve just said something Publicly, which doesn’t bode well for them……sort of like talking with a “Hot Mic On”, and not realizing that everyone can hear you.

            These are the “Predators” Lisa.

            I would be lying if I said I felt bad for them.

            However, I’m not casting JUDGEMENT on them……there may be things they’ve done that are terrific for all I know.
            That’s reserved for God, not me.

            No….I’m simply saying that I don’t pity someone that deliberately causes Friction among what is supposed to be “Their Brethren”.
            I’m sorry if I didn’t make that clearer.

            The worst part is that AFTER they’ve done their damage…..they don’t even have the courage to apologize.
            What”s even more distasteful is that saying “I’m sorry” after KNOWINGLY causing a Confrontation seems just as tacky as doing the deed itself. If they were TRULY sorry……they would stop doing it. And, I’ve found that way too many of them keep right o rolling do the same exact thing to the next piece of prey that comes their way.
            How do I know this?……because I read their other comments, unless they go “PRIVATE”, which just tells me they don’t want anyone to see how nasty they are to others.

            Why do I know all this?……because I was a NYC Police Officer.

            Usually, when you arrest the same person for the same crime over & over again….odds are that they are NOT GOING TO STOP.
            It’s what I call “Human Nature”…….and, speaking honestly – it makes me sick in my stomach when someone is deliberately being cruel.

            I guess me saying that “I don’t pity them” sounds cruel…….but, would you agree that God sees evil the same way? Not that I’m comparing myself to God, certainly not. But, the “Logic” is there.
            While I admit that I’m certainly NOT a saint…..but, I don’t purposely look for people to prey on.

            That’s all I’m saying Lisa.

            Truth be told…..if it were UP TO ME TO “PUNISH THEM”….I couldn’t do it, because I desire MERCY also, and I would be compelled to “Forgive Them”. It still doesn’t change my “opinion” of them, as I know exactly what they are after…….whatever is NOT theirs…..and, they wouldn’t have the same mercy while getting what they wanted in the first place.

            It’s always amazing to me how “Sorry” the thief is when I catch him breaking in……yet, when he is let go he goes right back to stealing. Should I PITY that thief when I catch him again?
            Jesus says YES.
            However, at the time, I have no pity at all for him being caught again.
            The dilemma remains the same for me….CAN I PUNISH HIM?
            The answer is always the same……NO, I CAN’T……….But, it is “IN MY HEART TO DO SO”……..but, I can NEVER BE AS CRUEL AS THAT THIEF IS.

          • Lisa

            I respect you for being a police officer! That’s awesome! This is where you get your insight from?
            What you say is true that people are bad and are sinners. I have been where they are. God is good and I know Him. I hope that even though they are doing their darnedest to bother me and bring me down to their level that God will give me some words that may start to work in their hard hearts so they will believe. That my words will not have been in vain. Even if my words are in vain I think God is pleased that I spoke the truth in love.

            I’m sorry if I offended you-that really wasn’t why I said that-I just would hate for your heart to harden because of all the bad you must have seen in your job and talking to people who are here to provoke. I did mean it in kindness and not to be hurtful.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Thanks Lisa…..be sure, you have certainly NOT offended me in any way whatsoever.

            I realize what you wee saying, which is why I wanted to elaborate on it…..I didn’t want you to think I was being some kind of hypocrite. I’m grateful that God has placed MERCY in my heart…..as I said, I am not able to PUNISH anyone, but, being a bit angry at them for what they’ve done isn’t much different from what Jesus said to Peter, when He said “GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN”.
            It was merely a “rebuke”, not a condemnation.

            But, to reiterate….it is because of your WORDS that i am speaking to you like this…..YOU ARE NOT SPEAKING IN VAIN!!
            That’s what I’m trying to tell you.

            In case you didn’t notice it….”they had NOTHING more to say to you after you straightened them out”………..(I noticed it).

            It is your great heart, loving spirit, and faith, & belief that I find o be the most AUTHENTIC that I’ve ever seen on these comments.
            I wish more people could be LIKE YOU.

            That’s the problem, they aren’t like you, and,they do want to bring us all down to “their level”.

            You’re correct in asking if being a Police Officer helps to give me insight. What it mostly shows me is that GOD IS ALWAYS RIGHT, and that down deep, we all have some “Vices”. What I’ve learned is “Human Nature”….couple that with God’s Holy Word, and I can “SEE THE BEAST” – the beast that doesn’t even know it is a beast.
            I see reflections of myself that I despise, and, that I DON’T WANT TO BE. I also see the “Human Condition” that causes us to do what we do…….because of that, I am sympathetic.
            But, I’ve also become a DEFENDER FOR THE HELPLESS…………and what that entails is seeing a 27 old guy raping a 75 year old Nun.
            It’s hard to have pity when I see such evil……….but, I’ve always had MERCY, especially when they don’t.

            These are the TRUTHS of the “World In Which We Live”……., and oh, how I wish I could change it all, but, I am HELPLESS MYSELF to do anything about it.
            The more evil I saw, the more closer to God I became, the more I remembered the Words Of Jesus ingrained in my heart.

            What a conflict of heart I had…..trying to “Defend & Protect” without being MERCILESS myself.

            I know the suffering, and I know all the pains, because everyone told the same reasons for doing what they did. How could I not know?
            The more evil I saw, the more I understood how powerful it can be on those in despair, and those that are tempted, and those just trying to survive. The more I knew…I WILL NEVER BE LIKE THEM.
            The more I learned about what THEY DO, the more I learned about WHAT NOT TO DO….because I know the RESULTS, and GOD WAS RIGHT.
            Evil brings nothing but SORROWS to those who commit it….which is why I said “THEY ARE ALREADY SUFFERING PERSECUTION”, and, it comes to them BY THEIR OWN HAND.
            It’s NOT religious persecution, it’s PERSECUTION OF THEIR CONSCIENCE, and living with what they have done.

            Yes, I have more insight than most when it comes to “HUMAN NATURE”, and, I’ve seen, and experienced more than anyone should ever know in a lifetime. But, I’m not regretting LEARNING ALL THIS…….it has PROVED THAT GOD WAS RIGHT……….my only desire is to NOT BE LIKE THEM.
            I’ve learned to KEEP MY HEART in the midst of ALL THAT EVIL…..and, IF I CAN OVERCOME ALL THAT, AND STILL HAVE MY HEART, THEN I CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING.
            That is what GOD TAUGHT ME…..I learned by SEEING, by DOING, by ANGER, and by FORGIVENESS.
            I learned that the “Purest Love Begins In My Own Heart”, and I was Circumcised with a Heart Of Flesh, not stone…..because I cannot bear to see anymore suffering.
            My heart remains broken, and it is clearly evident to me how that happened….yet, I am still helpless to do anything about it, except to remain with an “Open Heart”, and, to WAIT UPON THE LORD……this remains my greatest test…to keep MERCY in my heart. This is a test that I’ve been experiencing since I was about 7 years old, and is with me still.
            Do I get angry? YES!!!…Do I quickly get over my anger? ABSOLUTELY…..because I will not stoop to THEIR LEVEL either.
            It is enough for me to know MY GOD WILL AVENGE, and, I have the patience to WAIT UPON THE LORD.

          • Lisa

            All I can say is wow! God bless you and keep you Jerry. But it sounds like He already is!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Yes, Lisa…God blesses me EVERYDAY, every moment, even when I’m not thinking about it HE IS THERE – God has always been there for me.

            What I left out was HOW MANY TIMES GOD SAVED ME, and how I shouldn’t even be here now. I wish I could count how many times He saved my life…but, I can’t.

            Jesus is with me ALWAYS, and I know that He is also with YOU, always.

            He is refining me daily, and he is training me for something I have been destined to do. The amazing part of that is that every day is a new revelation…just when I thought I knew enough.
            In my dreams He is there, when I wake He is there, and when I go to sleep He never leaves my mind…….which makes it very hard to sleep while my mind is racing – just like you, I imagine all the things to come.
            And then, before I know it – I awake, and it starts all over again.
            Another day, and another revelation…..the cycle is endless, and marvelous.

            I wish that I can put into words what the Lord reveals to me.
            The funny part is that I don’t even have to ask Him to do it, it just comes rushing in like a flood of living waters, and I realize again that I am only here by His loving Grace, and that He watches over me constantly, and especially when I need Him the most.

            It’s beyond words, but, the revelations are truly incredible, as He opens His Holy Word in my mind, and I see it being realized.
            That’s the love I feel everyday, and I am truly indebted to my Lord. So much so that my “thanks” can never be enough.
            All I can do is marvel.

            My relationship with God is (I’m understating this) like a “Thousand Worlds” being shown to me at the same time, yet somehow, I am able to understand it without going insane. It’s the complete opposite…it is with great JOY that I see these marvels.

            Someday, I hope to tell you about some of them.
            It’s so hard to find someone that would understand this without thinking I’m nuts, but, we must remember that the mystery of God is not something easily told, or, described……even to those who are receiving it.

            This is why I say to you “God Bless You, Always”….because that’s what He does for me.

          • Lisa

            Our God is an awesome God!
            Exodus 15:11
            Who is like you among the gods O Lord? Who is like You, majestic in holiness, Awesome in praises, working wonders?

            Sorry but I need to go to bed-have a good night Jerry.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Goodnight Lisa…..

            Psalm 82:6

            “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons (and daughters) of the Most High.’

          • Lisa

            Hi Jerry! I was thinking about you, how are you?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Hi Lisa!
            I am doing very well, thank you for thinking of me!
            I think about you virtually everyday as I view your insightful comments around the world of “Disqus”, and I remain inspired by your faith, and, most of all – “Your sense of Logic & Truth”…..nothing is more important to me than that.

            I’m on the verge of a major breakthrough in Bible Prophecy, which seems to include the Books of ; “EZRA, NEHEMIAH, ESTHER, HAGGAI, ZECHARIAH, MALACHI, AND LASTLY – DANIEL” – all of which concern the Prophecy of the “Date Of Jesus Coming To Jerusalem, as well as His Crucifixion”.

            Daniel 9:24-27 reveals the Prophecy, but, the “Other Books” concern the “Timeline Of Fulfillment”, or, more importantly, they “Verify The Beginning” of the Prophecy.

            What I’ve discovered is a “Major Flaw” in “Historical Records” concerning BOTH “The Kings Of Persia”, as well as “The Bible Itself”.

            The “Flaw” is a “DIFFERENCE OF 10 YEARS”, which would be the “BEGINNING” of the Prophecy Of DANIEL & the “SEVENTY SEVENS”, otherwise know as “490 Years”, which is 70 X 7 = 490, and the “Coming Of Our Lord & His Crucifixion”….WHICH IS A “PERFECT PROPHECY”, and “Quite Exact” as to the TIMELINE of “When That Would Occur”.
            I find this Prophecy to be the “Center Piece” of ALL PROPHECY, as all the “Other Prophecies” REVOLVE AROUND THIS PROPHECY.
            Thus, it is in the utmost URGENCY that the “FLAW OF TEN YEARS BE RESOLVED”.

            I believe that I have “Discovered” WHERE the Flaw Originated, and, it is MY BELIEF that “THIS WAS DONE PURPOSELY TO DECEIVE CHRISTIANS”, as well as “Disrupt” the “ACCURACY OF GOD’S PROPHECIES”, which then “Causes The Word Of God To Be FALLIBLE”, which makes God Fallible.
            This, I CANNOT, and WILL NOT ALLOW TO HAPPEN.

            I can tell you this….”My Belief” is that IT WAS THE ROMAN CHURCH THAT DID THIS in an “Effort” to HIDE THE FACT THAT THEY ARE THE “BEAST”.

            It’s a “SMALL MATTER”…..yet, it is their attempt at throwing off suspicion that it is THEM that the “PROPHECY OF DANIEL 9 REFERS TO”…..because if we CAN’T PROVE THE TIMELINE LEADING TO THAT “PARTICULAR DATE IN HISTORY”, which they’ve ALTERED, then we CAN’T PROVE THEY ARE THE BEAST…..even though there are “Countless” other “Prophecies” that PROVE THEY ARE THE BEAST.

            Daniel goes on to say; “HE WILL CHANGE THE SET TIMES, AND THE LAW”, while referring to the “ANTI-CHRIST”, or, “The Beast”.

            If this “discovery” doesn’t PROVE HE CHANGED THE “SET TIMES” (which is HISTORY & PROPHECY), then, NOTHING ELSE WILL EVER PROVE IT.

            I am on the verge of PROVING THIS, which involves nearly “600 Years Of History” from the “Time Of Daniel”, when he “Wrote The Prophecy” to the “Revealing Of Jesus Christ”, which is the “Fulfillment Of That Prophecy”.

            The only explanation is that the CHURCH “Changed The Set Times”, and that was DONE BY CONSTANTINE 325 AD AT NICAEA, AND IN HIS “COMPILING THE BIBLE”, in which He (Constantine) Changed What Was Written IN THE BOOK OF “NEHEMIAH”, and Constantine ADDED 10 MORE YEARS to that Book, which THROWS OFF THE ENTIRE PROPHECY OF DANIEL.
            What Constantine did was “CHANGE THE YEAR OF KING ARTAXERXES TIMELINE TO HIS 20TH YEAR OF 445 BC, WHEN IT SHOULD BE HIS 10TH YEAR OF 455 BC”.

            455 BC is the “BEGINNING” OF THE PROPHECY OF DANIEL 9:24-27, AND 483 YEARS LATER, IN 28 AD, JESUS WAS “BAPTIZED BY JOHN THE BAPTIST” ON JESUS’ 30TH BIRTHDAY (ON SEPTEMBER 24TH 28 AD)…..1260 DAYS LATER (THE TIME OF JESUS’ PROPHESYING = 3/12 YEARS – “TIME, TIMES & HALF TIME”) TO THE TIME OF JESUS’ DEATH IN “MARCH 24TH 32 AD”….WHICH WAS “IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAST SEVEN HE WOULD BE CUT OFF”……WHICH WAS EXACTLY “486 1/2 YEARS”.
            THE REMAINING “3 1/2 YEARS” IS THE “GREAT TRIBULATION”…..WHICH WILL COME WITHIN THE NEXT 3 YEARS STARTING IN 2018, WHICH IS EXACTLY 70 YEARS “AFTER ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1948”.

            God does EVERYTHING in “Sevens, Seventies, Seven Hundreds, & Seven Thousand”.

            When we see God saying “TIME, TIMES & HALF TIME”, that simply means that THERE’S ANOTHER 3 1/2 COMING, as “Time, Times & Half Time is Only HALF A SEVEN”….which was the EXACT TIME that Jesus was Baptized & Crucified.

            WE ARE JUST WAITING FOR THAT “OTHER HALF SEVEN”, WHICH IS 3 1/2 YEARS, TO “COME”.
            All “Signs” lead to the “70th Year Of ISRAEL” as BRINGING IN THE REMAINING 3 1/2 YEARS, and that BEGINS IN 2018.

            Aren’t you sorry you asked how I was doing…LOL???
            Just kidding.

            I’m glad you asked….it gave me a chance to SHARE this with YOU.

            I hope that it doesn’t sound like “I’m Nuts”.
            I’d be VERY INTERESTED IN YOUR OPINIONS on this.

            So, please…..write me back, okay? Let me know what you think, as I respect your opinions!!

            As always, may God continue to Bless You in ALL THINGS.

            ~Jerry~

          • Lisa

            Im not sorry that I asked how you’re doing-I’m glad you’re doing well and wow you have been busy! You don’t sound nuts-just excited.
            When did you start studying all this? And how did you discover the ten years flaw?

            I’m not overly fond of date setting first off
            . So you are thinking that Jesus 31/2 year ministry is part of the 7 years and we only have to wait for the 31/2 years of tribulation? What about the temple being rebuilt? Because they rebuild the temple and start the sacrifices which are then cut off in the middle when the anti revokes the peace treaty and sets himself up as the abomination of desolation. That’s midway.
            I keep an eye on the temple institute and they have the alter rebuilt and all the utensils for sacrifice. They are training the priests. Not sure about the red heifer-they may have found a spotless one but haven’t read anything else to confirm it. Of the temple was rebuilt then I could see what you’re saying better.

            I agree with you about the roman catholic church. They have done a lot to mess up Christianity and I think they are the beast. They can be the only one. When it says that he will change the law-can it mean since he is the lawless one that he brings lawlessness and that’s the law? I don’t really know about set times except didn’t one of the popes change the calendar and isn’t the sabbath Friday night to Saturday night? Christians worship on Sunday but thays because of the catholic church and worshipping the sun? I could be off on that and can’t discount that they were deceptive about the 10 years you are talking about.

            It’s hard to know about the generation thing. Is 70 years the generation God was talking about? I just don’t know. I thought at first it was 40 years but that came and went and for that reason I’m not entirely sure about what is meant by a generation. However I don’t discount the 7’s.

            Another thing is I don’t think the world is bad enough yet for 2018 to be the year-it’s getting closer and closer and worse and worse but this is just my thinking-I don’t see the bad I think I would see to the lead up to the tribulation. Its steadily declining so it’s hard to know what 2018 will look like. Not just here in America but all over the world and I should take that into account but when I go out my door it all seems relatively normal. If I went out my door and things were scarier then I would be more on board with 2018. Maybe I shouldn’t let that be my point of reference because the world seems pretty bad off, but it is my point of reference right now-though I keep a close eye on the world. Europe seems to be pretty troubling because I do think that what has befallen there should happen here.

            I’m sorry I hope I’m not raining on your parade.
            Grace be with you,
            Lisa

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Thank you for your reply Lisa…..and, NO – you’re NOT raining on my parade…..I asked for your “input”, and I appreciate it.

            In fact you asked the “Right Questions”….and, I believe that I have the “Right Answers”.

            Your first question is an age old question….”what about the temple”?

            To answer that we need to “stay in the context of Daniel”.

            Daniel clearly wrote that the “Prophecy” BEGINS with the “Decree To Restore & Rebuild Jerusalem, and the Temple”.

            The answer to that is clearly written in EZRA as follows;

            (please note that the FIRST YEAR OF KING CYRUS WAS 539 BC, However, the Temple wasn’t COMPLETED UNTIL 515 BC, as you can see in the Book of Ezra that it was the “6th Year Of King Darius”, which was 515BC, as he became King in 521BC……there was a 18 Year DELAY from King Cyrus’ DECREE of 539BC when HE FREED THE JEWS to 521 BC when King DARIUS told them TO FINISH THE TEMPLE, which was Darius’ FIRST YEAR…..SIX YEARS LATER THEY FINISHED THE TEMPLE IN 515BC = the 6th Year of DARIUS.)

            This was February 3rd, the 12th Month (ADAR) 515BC…the next Jewish month would be NISAN, which is March, the 1st Month in the Jewish Calendar

            Ezra 6:15
            The temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.

            ————————————————-

            The IMPORTANT THING to note is that “THE WALLS HAD NOT BEEN FINISHED – JUST THE TEMPLE”.

            So, Daniel’s Prophecy is NOT IN EFFECT YET……it can ONLY BEGIN WHEN JERUSALEM IS “RESTORED”…..and that includes THE WALLS!!!!

            It’s all about THE WALLS…….not just the Temple.

            —————————————————-

            What I think that YOU ARE REFERRING TO is the “3rd TEMPLE”.

            Right?

            The most interesting thing about that is THAT IS “NOT IN THE BIBLE”.!!

            It’s a “Conclusion” that people have “Arrived At”, which is ANOTHER DECEPTION “CREATED BY THE BEAST”.

            This was done so that “WE DON’T KNOW WHEN JESUS WILL RETURN”.

            I always find this Verse in JEREMIAH to bring me “Comfort” when I am confronted about THIS SUBJECT………it goes like this;

            Jeremiah 7:4
            Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!”

            AND AGAIN IN THIS, JUST 4 VERSES LATER….

            Jeremiah 7:8
            But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

            —————————————————-

            Notice in Jeremiah that he says the “TEMPLE OF THE LORD 3 TIMES”……which would BE YOUR “3RD TEMPLE”.

            But, Jeremiah says THAT IS “FALSE”, and, in fact, YOU, and countless others have BEEN SUBJECTED to the LATTER VERSE, because he AGAIN REPEATS “THE WORD DECEPTION”.

            Next…to let you FULLY SEE the “Truth” about any COMING TEMPLE, I will use the WORDS OF JESUS to show you that THERE WILL BE “NO TEMPLE REBUILT BY MEN”!!!!

            In “other words”….NO 3rd TEMPLE, because Jesus is LIVING IN “THE 2ND TEMPLE” WHEN HE SAID THIS……

            Matthew 26:61
            and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

            AND THIS….

            Mark 14:58
            “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’”

            ————————————————-

            Clearly JESUS IS TELLING US THAT “HE WILL BUILD THE NEXT TEMPLE – NOT MADE WITH HUMAN HANDS”.

            This AGAIN is ANOTHER “PROPHECY” ABOUT JESUS “RETURNING IN 3 DAYS”….which is NOW.

            We are in the 3rd MILLENNIUM since Jesus Died….we are in the “THIRD DAY”.

            The PROOF that this was a “PROPHECY ABOUT HIS RETURN” is that “JESUS WAS NOT IN THE TOMB FOR 72 HOURS, OR 3 DAYS”.
            It Proves that JESUS AROSE after the SUN SET on Saturday Evening, which is THE END OF THE SABBATH…..Jesus RESTED ON THE SABBATH from “Friday Evening To Saturday Evening”, EXACTLY AS “THE LAW REQUIRES IN THE 4th COMMANDMENT”, which is also a “PROPHECY OF JESUS’ RETURN”.

            I love the 4th Commandment……that’s the day we are WAITING FOR, which is the “7th Day”, or “7th MILLENNIUM”, which also COINCIDES WITH THE “THIRD DAY”, “3rd MILLENNIUM”……which is NOW.

            Man had existed for “6,000 years” which is “6 Days”, and we have already crossed into the “7TH DAY” IN THE 21st CENTURY 2001.
            21 DIVIDED BY 3 IS = “7”.

            Everything has ALIGNED to NOW.

            Now, if you want to LOOK DEEPER, you can read what the Book of REVELATION SAYS ABOUT “THE TEMPLE OF GOD”….
            It says that “JESUS & GOD IS THE TEMPLE”.
            Did you “catch that”?….THEY “ARE” THE TEMPLE.

            And that is exactly what Jesus said in MATTHEW & MARK & JOHN.
            He said “DESTROY THIS TEMPLE (this current temple, the 2nd temple), AND I WILL RAISE IT IN THREE DAYS!!!

            Obviously, the “Temple Was Destroyed Within 40 Years” in 70 AD.

            Do you see the “DECEPTION YET”???

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            To answer your “next question”….

            “Because they rebuild the temple and start the sacrifices which are then cut off in the middle when the anti revokes the peace treaty and sets himself up as the abomination of desolation. That’s midway”.

            —————————————–

            This again is referring to a “DECEPTION” that has been derived from “Misunderstanding” the Prophecy in DANIEL.

            You must read the Prophecy “AS IT’S WRITTEN”, not as “People Interpret It”.

            But, I will start with an EASY QUESTION TO YOU…..

            What do you think Jesus “Accomplished” ON THE CROSS??

            Wasn’t HE the “SACRIFICIAL LAMB OF GOD”???

            As long as WE CAN AGREE that Jesus was THE “LAST SACRIFICE”, then we can also AGREE that it was JESUS WHO ENDED THE SACRIFICES “MIDWAY”, AS YOU PUT IT.

            Remember….He was only HALFWAY through the “LAST SEVEN”.

            Knowing this SIMPLE THING, it makes ALL THE REST “MOOT”.

            It’s a DECEPTION that “Causes You To WAIT FOR THE ANTI-CHRIST/BEAST”…..you are ASSUMING THAT IT IS THE “ANTI-CHRIST” THAT PUTS AN END TO “SACRIFICE”………

            Surely, it was JESUS THAT ENDED SACRIFICE…..just as the PROPHECY FORETOLD, as follows;

            Lets’ look at the ENTIRE PROPHECY OF THE SEVENTY SEVENS….

            The Seventy “Sevens”

            20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill—21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

            24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d]transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

            25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[f] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[g] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood:War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i]he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[k]”[l]

            Footnotes:
            a) Daniel 9:1 Hebrew Ahasuerus
            b) Daniel 9:1 Or Chaldean
            c) Daniel 9:24 Or ‘weeks’; also in verses 25 and 26
            d) Daniel 9:24 Or restrain
            e) Daniel 9:24 Or the most holy One
            f) Daniel 9:25 Or an anointed one; also in verse 26
            g) Daniel 9:26 Or death and will have no one; or death, but not for himself
            h) Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
            i) Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
            j) Daniel 9:27 Septuagint and Theodotion; Hebrew wing
            k) Daniel 9:27 Or it
            l) Daniel 9:27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

            ——————————————————–

            Why did I LEAVE IN THE “FOOTNOTES”???

            Because on the “Last Verse” – LETTER (I) 9:27 it SHOULD BE READ THAT WAY….not the way it was “Interpreted”…..

            “l) Daniel 9:27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city”

            —————————————————-

            In this case THE FOOTNOTES ARE CORRECT…it’s the “INTERPRETATION THAT’S FALSE”…..
            It is JESUS POURING OUT ON THE DESOLATE CITY “HIS WRATH”.
            Remember that it is JESUS DESTROYING THE SACRIFICES, AS WELL AS THE TEMPLE…..NOT THE ANTI-CHRIST.

            Jesus said “In His Own Words” that HE WOULD DESTROY THE TEMPLE.

            This WHOLE THING has us all CHASING AFTER LOOKING FOR THE “BEAST TO ENTER THE TEMPLE”…..we are then TOLD that the “3rd TEMPLE WILL BE THAT PLACE”……where do you see “3RD TEMPLE”??????????????????????

            It is the “PEOPLE OF THE RULER THAT WILL DESTROY THE TEMPLE”……That’s ISRAEL, and the “Ruler” is JESUS, which was CLEARLY POINTED OUT AS THE “ANOINTED ONE”….THE RULER THAT WILL “COME”.

            In other words…….there is NO 7 YEAR PERIOD OF “SATAN”, and, there is NO “MIDDLE OF THAT SEVEN” that he will “CUT OFF THE DAILY SACRIFICES”…………….JESUS ALREADY DID ALL THAT.

            It’s JESUS that the Prophecy is TALKING ABOUT….not SATAN.

            The “ABOMINATIONS” are all caused by the people of ISRAEL, all the way back to when they SINNED AT MT.SINAI, when they received the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

            It was THE ISRAELITE’S THAT “DEFILED THE TEMPLES”…..Not SATAN….it was when they MARRIED FOREIGN WOMEN & FOLLOWED FOREIGN GODS BECAUSE OF THOSE WOMEN.
            It was when THE PRIESTS DEFILED THE TEMPLE “WHICH JESUS HIMSELF TOLD THEM THEY MADE IT A DEN OF THIEVES”…..this ISN’T ABOUT SATAN….it’s about ISRAEL.

            There is NO COMING OF THE BEAST…..he came WHEN THE “CHURCH CAME”…….way back in 55 AD.

            THIS IS THE DECEPTION….and how many people HAVE SWORN ALLEGIANCE TO THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE NICENE CREED????

            THOSE ARE THE ONE’S THAT HAVE “WORSHIPED THE BEAST”, AND THEY “BEAR HIS MARK”…..WHICH IS THE “IDOLATRY OF A WOODEN OR METAL CROSS”…..which THEY SERVE, and KNEEL DOWN TO, AND SACRIFICE FOODS TO “IDOLS”….THE “HOLY SACRAMENT”.

            Is any of this making any sense???

          • Lisa

            I’m going to have to think and pray about what you have written. The big question going through my mind is-if there is no third temple why are the Jewish people ready for one?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            So, when you say this….

            “I keep an eye on the temple institute and they have the alter rebuilt and all the utensils for sacrifice. They are training the priests. Not sure about the red heifer-they may have found a spotless one but haven’t read anything else to confirm it. Of the temple was rebuilt then I could see what you’re saying better”….

            I say that you are BEING DECEIVED, just as Jeremiah said in 7:4-8.

            Of course, guess what?….THAT’S WHAT THE FIGHTING IS ALL ABOUT, and Satan is LAUGHING HIS @SS OFF, that all these people are FIGHTING OVER THE “TEMPLE MOUNT”.

            This is God’s Wrath being executed against those who are TRYING TO “FORCE GOD’S HAND” in “attempting to bring in the ARMAGEDDON”.

            Do you really believe that “MAN HAS THAT POWER”???

            No….it is NOT man causing this TURMOIL in the “Land Of Israel”, and, IT IS NOT SATAN EITHER….Satan is an “ACCUSER”, not a “DOER”………No, it is GOD CAUSING EVERYONE’S CONFUSION, because they don’t have “Faith In His Word”, and they “CHANGE HIS WORD” to match their IDEOLOGIES.

            You also asked about “HOW DID THEY CHANGE THE SET TIMES & THE LAWS”??

            That’s an EASY ONE…..Constantine made it a LAW that ANYONE CAUGHT WORSHIPING ON THE 7TH DAY SABBATH BE PUT TO DEATH…..so, with the “CHURCH’S HELP” they change THE LAW to make the DAY OF THE LORD ON “SUNDAY”, INSTEAD OF SATURDAY.
            I know you already KNOW THIS.

            But, DID YOU KNOW THEY “DELETED THE 2ND COMMANDMENT”???…….The one about “WORSHIPING IDOLS”???

            Yep, it’s COMPLETELY GONE from the “Catholic & Protestant CATECHISMS”……mind you it was “MARTIN LUTHER”, a German Catholic that STARTED THE PROTESTANT MOVEMENT….but, HE KEPT THE CATHOLIC CATECHISMS….which are ALIVE & WELL TODAY IN “LUTHERAN CHURCHES”…..it started in the 16th Century.

            What the CHURCH cleverly did was “SPLIT THE 10th COMMANDMENT INTO 2 SEPARATE COMMANDMENTS”, and these concerned “COVETING”….they made “2 Commandments About Coveting” instead of ONE COMMANDMENT….which made it EASY to continue to say “WE HAVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS”… No one even MISSED the REAL 2nd Commandment, as long as there were “10”.

            CONSTANTINE IS THE “LAWLESS ONE” OF WHICH “DANIEL SPEAKS”.
            But, as I said in my FIRST POST TO YOU……..THEY CHANGED THE “SET TIMES”, WHICH INCLUDE BOTH THE “SABBATH”, AS WELL AS “HISTORY & TIMELINES IN THE BIBLE”……which are also the “SET TIMES”, WHICH INCLUDES THE “SET TIMES OF DANIEL”.

            That’s the DECEPTION……those “MISSING 10 YEARS” change all the rest of the PROPHECIES.

            The “Prophecies” are the SET TIMES!!!

            If they get CHANGED, even by TEN YEARS, then it CHANGES EVERYTHING THAT “REVOLVES AROUND THAT PROPHECY”.

            That was done when CONSTANTINE ADDED 10 YEARS TO THE BOOK OF “NEHEMIAH”, by “Starting The Book saying it was the 20TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES”, when it should be the “10TH YEAR OF ARTAXERXES”.

            It results in a “13 Year GAP” between the BOOK OF EZRA, and the book of NEHEMIAH.

            Mind you now…..EZRA WROTE THE BOOK OF NEHEMIAH TOO!!!
            So, HOW COULD THERE BE A 13 YEAR GAP???
            They were “CONSECUTIVELY WRITTEN”.

            Ezra starts out at the “7th Year Of ARTAXERXES”…..what happened to the “13 years” in between there?….IT HAS TO BE “ALTERED”.

            Now, here’s the IRONIC PART about all this.

            If EZRA starts at 7th Year of ARTAXERXES, it would be the YEAR 458 BC.
            It took EZRA 1 Whole Year to 457 BC to get rid of the FOREIGN WIVES that “Israel Had Corrupted Themselves With IN THE NEW TEMPLE” that was Finished in 515 BC.

            Here’s the FUNNY PART…..the Book of NEHEMIAH is about “FINISHING THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM”, and it say that book started in 445 BC,, which would be the “20th Year of ARTAXERXES”.

            Simple math…..7th Year of ARTAXERXES is 458 BC, which makes his FIRST YEAR 465 BC.
            Next……20th year Of ARTAXERXES is 445 BC.

            Now, here’s the “SUPER-DE-DUPER QUESTION”…..

            WHY WOULD ISRAEL WAIT FROM 539 BC WHEN KING “CYRUS” FREED THE JEWS TO BUILD THE “TEMPLE”, ALL THE WAY TO “445 BC” TO FINISH A “52 DAY JOB” OF FIXING THE “WALLS”???

            OKAY….LETS COUNT HOW MANY YEARS THAT IS TO DO A “52 DAY JOB”…….MIND YOU >>> “52 DAYS”….NOT MONTHS, NOT YEARS….”DAYS”……..that equals “94 YEARS” TO DO A “52 DAY JOB”?????

            IT DEFIES “LOGIC”!!!

            YET, THAT’S WHAT WE ARE SUPPOSE TO BELIEVE “ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE”…..which I believe was ALTERED.

            There is AVAILABLE HISTORY to “Prove” that NEHEMIAH ONLY FIXED A “COUPLE OF GATES”, AND A LENGTH OF THE WALLS THAT SPANNED MAYBE 20 FEET.

            IN OTHER WORDS….THERE REALLY WASN’T THAT MUCH LEFT TO FIX…..ESPECIALLY AFTER 94 YEARS!!!

            Remember…ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THIS JOB ONLY TOOK HIM 52 DAYS ( NEHEMIAH ).

            The “Story” just doesn’t make any sense…..which makes me want to INVESTIGATE IT EVEN MORE.

            In NEHEMIAH it says ‘THIS WAS BREAKING NEHEMIAH’S HEART”.

            My next question would easily be….WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG NEHEMIAH????

            IT’S BEEN 94 YEARS THAT YOUR “PEOPLE WERE FREED” IN 539 BC…..WHY WOULD YOU EVEN “BE IN PERSIA” IN THE FIRST PLACE?
            ESPECIALLY SINCE “YOUR HEART IS BROKEN”????

            AND, AS WE CAN ALSO “CONCLUDE”…..NEHEMIAH WAS “ARTAXERXES’ CUP BEARER FOR 20 YEARS”??????

            WHY????
            ——————————————————–

            This is what I conclude SO FAR.

            #1 When EZRA “CLEANED THE PEOPLE OF FOREIGN GODS & WIVES” IT WAS 457 BC – 1 YEAR AFTER ARRIVING IN ISRAEL, JUST AS THE BOOK PROCLAIMS.

            #2 The “Prophecy” COULDN’T START UNTIL “ALL HAD BEEN RESTORED”….JUST AS IN DANIEL 9.
            And it only makes SENSE that the TEMPLE HAD TO BE CLEAN in order for God to BEGIN BLESSING ISRAEL……that led to JESUS.

            #3…I believe that the Book of NEHEMIAH IS A “COMPLETE HOAX”, simply because it MAKES NO SENSE TO WAIT 94 YEARS TO FINISH THE “WALLS”…….THE JOB ONLY TOOK “52 DAYS”!!!!!

            #4 I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS “EZRA & NEHEMIAH” IN THE SAME BOOK OF EZRA…NOT A “SEPARATE BOOK OF NEHEMIAH”, IN WHICH THAT “52 DAY JOB WAS COMPLETED IN 455 BC”, WHICH IS ONLY “2 YEARS AWAY FROM THE CLEANSING OF ISRAEL, AND THE COMPLETION OF THE WALLS”.

            IT WAS “EZRA’S JOB TO PREPARE THE JEWS FOR CLEANSING & COMPLETION, AND TO TEACH THEM THE LAWS OF MOSES”.
            THIS WAS DONE TO AN “ENTIRELY NEW GENERATION OF JEWS”, AND, IT TOOK PLACE NOT “94 YEARS LATER”, BUT, “60 YEARS LATER”, AFTER THE “TEMPLE WAS REBUILT”.

            “EZRA IS THE MESSENGER OF GOD”, SENT THERE TO “CLEANSE & RESTORE THE HOUSE OF JUDAH & JERUSALEM”, WHICH INCLUDED THE FINISHING OF THE 52 DAY JOB TO FIX THE WALLS.

            IN OTHER WORDS….THE BOOK OF NEHEMIAH “NEVER HAPPENED”…..IT’S ALL A FABRICATION THAT MAKES “NO SENSE”.
            THE ONLY THING THE BOOK OF NEHEMIAH ACCOMPLISHES IS TO “THROW OFF THE PROPHECY OF DANIEL”……IT SERVES NO OTHER PURPOSE.

            I believe with all my heart that this is the case.
            However, the only way to PROVE IT would be to SEE THE “ORIGINAL TEXTS OF THIS BOOK OF NEHEMIAH”.

            And, guess WHO has the ORIGINALS???

            Like I said…..a 13 Chapter Book to do a “52 Day Job”, by a Man that was FREE TO GO WHEN EVER HE WANTED TO, yet he spent “20 Years Being A CUP BEARER”??

            HOW CAN HE HONESTLY SAY “HE WAS HEARTBROKEN ABOUT THE WALLS”??
            HE HAD 20 YEARS TO GO BACK TO ISRAEL…..WHY DIDN’T HE?

            IT’S AN “OBVIOUS LIE”, AND, THE RECORDS OF THE “KINGS OF PERSIA PROVE IT’S A LIE”.

            I can EMAIL you the Proof I’m talking about, if you want.
            Let me know, and I will put up my EMAIL ADDRESS, and then I will DELETE IT so no one else can bother me, okay??

            Thank you Lisa for giving me this opportunity to “Address These Issues”……this is my forte, and, what I love to do the most, and that is to PROVE TO OTHERS THAT THE BIBLE IS GOD’S HOLY WORDS.
            But, we must also ACCEPT that EVIL CORRUPTION is in the midst of Christians….THAT’S WHAT JESUS TAUGHT US….to be “Ever Alert”.

            I must remind you that IT WAS CONSTANTINE THAT COMPILED THE BIBLE…..SURELY HE HAD THE “OPPORTUNITY & MOTIVE TO ALTER WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN IT IN 325 AD IN NICAEA”…….WHO WOULD EVER KNOW, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE “ALERT”.

            Please, write me back, okay??

            Thanks Lisa…and, God Bless You!!!!

          • Lisa

            Doesn’t the catholic church claim the Bible is corrupted in places-maybe they know for sure that happened? I do know what your saying about Sunday and the commandments. And I would agree with about the Lutherans and I would add the Methodists and Presbytarians in with keeping catechisms. Luther really didn’t go far enough.
            I’m still researching the Bible not mentioning the third temple. Haha-you’ve had a head start!
            I agree that there is deception all around and we need to keep alert. I really will have to think about, pray and read the Bible to make any decisions about what you’ve shared. I really don’t feel like I can talk intelligibly until then. But I do thank you for giving me something to think about that challenges me to seek God and His word. How long have you been working on this?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            That’s good Lisa. Take your time reading what I’m writing. It will lift a great veil off your eyes.

            I’ve tried to answer about 3 of your initial questions, but, I didn’t answer them all, and I really want to answer all that you asked…..But, I’m very Tired right now, and I’d like to pick this up Tomorrow where I left off.

            Like I said..- YOU ASKED THE RIGHT QUESTIONS!!!

            I truly believe that I have the “Right Answers”, which are way off the “beaten path”.

            I have so much to share, and, it’s quite exhausting typing it all out on these comments.

            But, believe it, or not, everything I’m talking about has to do with the “delusion” that so many Christians are under…..it’s always been my prayer to God to reveal to me the “Truth”….that started about 40 Years Ago, and it hasn’t stopped yet.

            I have NO TEACHERS. Everything I know COMES FROM THE BIBLE.

            And, I don’t find these “Discrepancies” by ACCIDENT, I am “Led To Them”.

            What really overwhelms me is when I see that “OTHERS HAVE DISCOVERED WHAT I FOUND ON MY OWN”…..that gives me my “Verification”, through the Books Of History, that God has PUT ME ON THE RIGHT PATH…..and, there’s ALWAYS LIGHT AT THE END OF MY SEARCH……that’s the “Moment” when EVERYTHING CLICKS INTO PLACE….it’s the “Moment Of Clarity”, which only comes after I have eliminated all other “Possibilities”.

            That’s why this takes very much of my time. I don’t just “Accept” things, even if they are in the “Bible”, because I know that “MY THINKING HAS BEEN ALTERED TO MAKE ME SEE SOMETHING THAT’S NOT THERE”…..that’s called “DECEPTION”, and that is my worst enemy.

            We all deserve to know the Truth…and that’s what I search for.

          • Lisa

            Before you go-how much of the Bible do you think is corrupted?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Don’t get made at me when I answer that question, okay?

          • Lisa

            I don’t see what would make me mad when you answer.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Okay…here goes…

            I don’t believe ANYTHING THAT COMES FROM “PAUL”.

            It’s like he came out of the woodwork in the “MIDDLE OF THE BOOK OF ACTS”….AND TOOK OVER THE BIBLE FROM THERE.

            He has said MANY TIMES…that it is “HIS GOSPEL”, and, He’s the only one that “CANCELLED ALL THE LAWS OF MOSES”.

            Automatically that makes him n “ANTI-SEMITE”.

            I can Prove that JESUS tells us ABOUT PAUL in the Book of Revelations 2:2 as follows;

            2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.

            —————————————-

            The BIG CLUE there is that is ADDRESSED TO THE “EPHESIANS”, which happens to be the book that PAUL WROTE.

            Paul says IT IS BY GRACE THAT YOU ARE SAVED….that’s a LIE.

            We are “NOT WORTHY OF GOD’S GRACE”, which is why he sent HIS SON JESUS…..because we will never be in “GOD’S FAVOR”, which is what GRACE IS.

            We are all STAINED WITH SIN…..Jesus & God went through GREAT LENGTHS to tell us that “GOD WILL CLEANSE US”…..therefore “HOW CAN WE BE WORTHY”???……we are FILTHY & DEFILED.

            It takes FAITH IN JESUS, AND “OBEYING GOD’S COMMANDMENTS” TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD……this is CLEARLY WRITTEN IN REV 14:12

            Revelation 14:12

            12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

            ————————————————-

            That makes PAUL A LIAR….along with his 13 Books, of which I USE NOTHING FROM THEM.

            So far the count is “14 Books”, and half book of ACTS.

          • Lisa

            That is quite a revelation Jerry! What proof do you have?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Well, to begin with…

            Nearly everyone in the Bible has a WITNESS to prove that person’s VALIDITY…..for Jesus it was the “4 Gospels” = 4 Witnesses.

            It takes the TESTIMONY OF AT LEAST TWO WITNESSES before we can ‘BELIEVE” what that person is SAYING.

            Paul only has “ONE WITNESS”….and, WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THAT WITNESS EITHER – his name was “ANANIAS”…..who’s He???

            NO ONE CAN “PROVE THIS HAPPENED TO PAUL”, EXCEPT FOR PAUL, AND HIS “ALLEGED ACCOMPLICE – ANANIAS” , BOTH OF WHOM WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT EXCEPT THAT “PAUL KILLED CHRISTIANS”.

            That, in itself should be OUR FIRST CLUE….

            Acts 9

            Saul’s Conversion

            9 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

            5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

            “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

            7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

            10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

            “Yes, Lord,” he answered.

            11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

            13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

            15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

            —————————————————-

            I don’t BELIEVE A SINGLE WORD OF THIS “ALLEGED CONVERSION”.

            Next…PAUL WAS A “ROMAN CITIZEN”…IN HIS WON WORDS!!!

            He APPEALED TO CAESAR to “Save Hos Own Life”.

            IS THAT WHAT “CHRISTIANS WERE DOING IN THOSE DAYS?”

            TRYING TO “SAVE THEIR LIVES”?

            OR, WERE THEY BEING “MARTYRED”??

            Jesus said…whoever will SAVE HIS LIEF, will LOSE IT, and, whoever will LOSE HIS LIFE WILL “SAVE IT”.

            Why go to ROME??

            Paul was NOT A JEW either…as written in Revelation 2:9….

            9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

            ————————————————–

            To me, there is NO BETTER PROOF than the WORDS OF JESUS.

            Why would JESUS SAY THESE THINGS?????

            Because THEY ARE TRUE!!!!

            I have more to prove he was a FRAUD….too much to put down at this time…

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            If you look up the “ORIGINS OF THE CHURCH”…..you will ALWAYS see that the PERSON THAT “INFLUENCED THEM THE MOST WAS” – “PAUL”.

            Look up ANY EARLY CHURCH PERSON……you will always see who was HIS INSPIRATIONS.

            It was PAUL THAT BUILT THE “CATHOLIC CHURCH” BASED PURELY ON “HIS WRITINGS”……therefore, IF THEY BE FALSE, THEN PAUL IS ALSO FALSE.

          • Lisa

            Haha, maybe I should have investigated the origins of the catholic church.
            Coincidentally I was going to read Chuck Swindoll’s book on Paul. Ya I know Chuck’s questionable but I wanted to read his take on Paul, but I haven’t gotten very far. I don’t think I’ve gotten past the first chapter.
            I heard that Paul didn’t write Hebrews-do you think that’s true. This would be hard to take since Paul wrote most of the New Testament.
            But I’ll let us go, it’s late where you are and I have work in the morning. I will think and pray about what you’ve shared. Goodnight Jerry

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Paul DID NOT write the Book “HEBREWS”, thank God.
            The writer is UNKNOWN, but it is speculated that it was “JAMES”, the Brother Of Jesus.

            Paul has 13 Books in the Bible – MORE THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE…….Funny, I thought the Bible was able JESUS & GOD – not about Paul.
            Yet in Galatians 5 Paul says ADAMANTLY – “Mark My Words”!!!!
            If ANYONE IS LEADING YOU TO ANY OTHER VIEW THAT PERSON IS FALSE!!!

            ( me thinks thou doesth protest too much Paul )

            And, WHO WAS HE “ARGUING WITH”??…..The “Other Disciples”, which is also CLEARLY WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF “ACTS”…..they KNEW he was FALSE.

            So, instead of going to the “7 CHURCHES OF REVELATION”, he went ON HIS OWN TO PREACH “HIS GOSPEL OF GRACE”, AND TO DENOUNCE THE LAWS OF MOSES.

            Paul TRIED to infiltrate the EPHESIANS, but was TURNED AWAY, as Jesus TOLD THEM TO DO IN REV 2:2.
            After that…Paui didn’t try again to INFILTRATE THE CHURCHES OF JESUS CHRIST…Instead he went to ROME, and that was his “FIRST BOOK”!!

          • Lisa

            I am nearly convinced Jerry but I need to pray about it. I also need to go to bed. It was very nice talking to you. Goodnight!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Good Night Lisa…..sleep well, and know that you are on the road to “truth”.
            I don’t ask people to “Believe Me”….but, I do ask them to “BELIEVE JESUS”.
            I’ll take Jesus’ Word OVER Paul any day of the week!!!

          • Lisa

            I feel that it is my Christian duty to let anyone who may read these comments know that I believe Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            It is also my duty to say that as “Christians” we are ALL APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST.

            The “Difference is”, that I BELIEVE “JESUS OVER PAUL”.

            Whoever puts PAUL AHEAD OF JESUS, is NOT A “CHRISTIAN”, they are a “PAULINIST”.

            That’s what DEFINES A “CHRISTIAN”….it is ONE WHO BELIEVES “JESUS”……..everyone else (including Paul), are NOT JESUS’ FOLLOWERS, IF THEY PUT “PAUL AHEAD OF JESUS”.

            Nowhere IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE does “JESUS SAY YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE”……..not “ONE PLACE”!!!!!

            I think I’ll stick with JESUS….you can ALL “FOLLOW” WHOMEVER YOU’D LIKE.

            It begs the question…..”WHO ARE YOU REALLY FOLLOWING”??

            For ME, it’s CERTAINLY “NOT PAUL”, or any OTHER MAN, OR WOMAN…..it is “STRICTLY JESUS THAT I FOLLOW”.

            So, if a person like PAUL says “SOMETHING THAT JESUS NEVER SAID”……..like being “SAVED BY GRACE”….then anyone that “FOLLOWS THAT IS “NOT FOLLOWING JESUS”.

            It can’t be any CLEARER.

            It is MY DUTY to “Challenge” anyone to find WHERE JESUS SAID “YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE”???????????????

            Show me THAT…..then I will FOLLOW IT TOO!!!!

          • Lisa

            Matthew 10:2
            Now the names of the 12 apostles are these: The first Simon called Peter.
            Apostle-one of an authoritative group sent out to preach the gospel. Jesus CHOSE Peter. You may not like Peter personally but Jeis chose him-are you saying that Jesus was wrong? You say you only believe Jesus. Jesus chose Peter. Peter is flawed and he did deny Christ 3times-but Jesus forgave him and he remained in apostle. As apostle he can speak for Jesus. And Peter calls Paul his beloved brother. You may not like that but it’s there in 2Peter 3:15. So then ya I do believe that Paul is good. But I want to thank you for challenging me to find out for myself if Paul was really an apostle. And I do think that Paul may have been talked about like that. Who is this Paul person and what authority does he have? Which is why he talks the way he does. He does have a bad past-persecuting Christians. But God can and does redeem those people. In fact the Bible says we all have sinned-there is no one without a past Jerry.

            I think you’re mad about grace because you think you can come to the Lord in your own and have no need for the grace He gives us. Grace-unmerited favor. We sinners sure don’t merit any favor but God is a gracious God and He can give what He wants to whom He wants. He chose to save us from sin and the punishment for sin. There is a punishment for sin. He chose to send His Son to take the punishment for our sins. And all a person has to do is believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved! That is grace. That’s all you have to do Jerry.
            John 1:17
            For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. Even John talks about grace. You gonna say don’t believe John? In revelation 22:21 the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. You can’t seperate grace from Jesus. Otherwise you get the law and you have to keep it, but the law was given to show is that we could never keep them. We aren’t able to live to God’s high standards. Jesus did fulfill the law and he died, because without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. He took our punishment and all one has to do is believe in Him. That’s it! You can’t earn your way to Jesus Jerry or be good enough and by shutting out everything you personally don’t agree with you are in effect shutting out the full council of God. You can’t make good and right decisions because you don’t see it all. You want to pick and choose what you believe from the Bible and it doesn’t work like that.

            As for my deceiving you-I didn’t. You were always nice to me before so I decided to listen to what you had to say. I looked to the Bible to show me the truth. That’s what the Bible is for. God is truth and His word is truth. And the Bible clearly shows me that you are wrong about Paul. But again why does it matter if I wanted to hear all you say-if you aren’t ashamed of what you believe why not be up front and truthful about your beliefs? I believe you are wrong now Jerry and maybe that’s what bothers you the most? I’m not going to look into the other things because I believe you are probably wrong about that too. There is nothing new under the sun and I don’t believe you found something new in the Bible. You have been following me for awhile and I think you could use the things I’ve said in the past to get my attention.

            I wish you well Jerry, but I don’t think that we can really talk much more. We seem to be on opposite sides. I don’t think that I can explain grace to your satisfaction and I don’t believe in a graceless God.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I guess your saying FROM THIS ONE LINE that “Jesus said you are SAVED BY GRACE”……………….I suggest you READ IT AGAIN.

            “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus”

            Yes, JESUS “IS” GRACE……….says NOTHING ABOUT BEING “SAVED BY IT”.
            Would you also say that “MARY WAS “GRACE”, being the Virgin Mother Of God??? Would you say that “God is Grace”???
            Would you say we were “BORN IN GRACE”??

            Yes!!!……..and guess what happened NEXT? …….”WE ALL FELL FROM GRACE”!!!……..THIS IS A “FACT”.

            I’m sorry by MY “VERSES ABOUT HOW TO BE SAVED”…..TRUMPS ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN PUT UP”.

            You go right ahead, and “PUBLICLY DECLARE” your “Faith In Paul”……being your “Christian Duty & All”/
            I think you’d do BETTER by “PROFESSING YOUR FAITH IN JESUS – PUBLICLY”, instead of telling everyone “YOU BELIEVE IN PAUL”.

            You haven’t “proved anything to me”……..I HAVE PROVED “WHAT JESUS SAID – not what Paul said……WHAT JESUS SAID”.

            It’s UP TO YOU….not up to me to BELIEVE JESUS.

            By all means….CONTINUE YOUR FIGHT FOR “PAUL”……You’d do BETTER to FIGHT FOR “JESUS”.

            As for PETER…..I have NOTHING against him……..I simply STATED FACTS……..something you should START DOING.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I guess your saying FROM THIS ONE LINE that “Jesus said you are SAVED BY GRACE”……………….I suggest you READ IT AGAIN.

            “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus”

            Yes, JESUS “IS” GRACE……….says NOTHING ABOUT BEING “SAVED BY IT”.

            Would you also say that “MARY WAS “GRACE”, being the Virgin Mother Of God???

            Would you say that “God is Grace”???

            Would you say we were “BORN IN GRACE”??

            Yes!!!……..and guess what happened NEXT? …….”WE ALL FELL FROM GRACE”!!!……..THIS IS A “FACT”.

            I’m sorry by MY “VERSES ABOUT HOW TO BE SAVED”…..TRUMPS ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN PUT UP”.

            You go right ahead, and “PUBLICLY DECLARE” your “Faith In Paul”……being your “Christian Duty & All”/

            I think you’d do BETTER by “PROFESSING YOUR FAITH IN JESUS – PUBLICLY”, instead of telling everyone “YOU BELIEVE IN PAUL”.

            You haven’t “proved anything to me”……..I HAVE PROVED “WHAT JESUS SAID – not what Paul said……WHAT JESUS SAID”.

            It’s UP TO YOU….not up to me to BELIEVE JESUS.

            By all means….CONTINUE YOUR FIGHT FOR “PAUL”……You’d do BETTER to FIGHT FOR “JESUS”.

            As for PETER…..I have NOTHING against him……..I simply STATED FACTS……..something you should START DOING.

            You still haven;t shown me WHERE JESUS “SAID YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE”.

            Do you think you’ve won some kind of battle?.

            Trust me on this….there is a BATTLE….for your SOUL…..and you’re LOSING RIGHT NOW, by relying on “false Doctrines”.

            DIDN’T JESUS SAY THIS WOULD HAPPEN???…..yet, still you don’t believe him……INSTEAD YOU PROFESS YOUR FAITH IN PAUL.

            I wouldn’t even be answering this if I didn’t care about you….I do like you…but, you are WRONG ABOUT THIS.

            Jesus said…”IF YOU BELIEVE IN ME, THEN YOU BELIEVE IN MY FATHER WHO SENT ME, AND YOU WILL DO HIS WILL”.

            I see nothing there about doing PAUL’S WILL.

            I can only REPEAT what I said EARLIER…..maybe if you READ IT, you might START BELIEVING JESUS, AND START FIGHTING FOR HIM, AND HIS COMMANDMENTS…..

            ————————————————–

            Here’s what “JESUS SAID” about “BEING SAVED”…..

            Matthew 19….

            The Rich and the Kingdom of God

            16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

            17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

            18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

            Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

            20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

            21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

            22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

            23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

            25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

            ———————————————————

            I see Jesus saying; “GOD’S COMMANDMENTS”……

            “Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]””

            NOWHERE DO I SEE THE “WORD GRACE”.

            Show me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN??

            He REPEATS THAT in Revelation 14:12

            Revelation 14:12King James Version (KJV)

            12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that “keep the commandments of God”, and the “faith of Jesus”.

            ———————————————-

            I still don’t see the word GRACE ANYWHERE.

            My case is CLOSED.

            You really “SHOULD PRAY ON THIS” – WHO DO YOU BELIEVE, JESUS OR PAUL??

            I’m sorry….nothing you can say can CHANGE WHAT JESUS “ACTUALLY SAID”…..THESE WERE “HIS OWN WORDS”.

            I know you think IT ONLY BY GOD’S GOOD GRACE THAT WE ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE……YET, JESUS CLEARLY SAID THAT’S “NOT THE WAY”…..IT IS BY OBEYING “GOD’S COMMANDMENTS”.

            I know that I can’t CHANGE MY SINS……and, there is NO WAY TO FORCE MY WAY INTO HEAVEN, as you WRONGLY ASSUMED ME THINKING……you haven’t been LISTENING…..because you DON’T WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH.

            If anyone is trying to get into HEAVEN….it’s YOU…by doing nothing.

            JESUS SAID “WE MUST REPENT”, CONFESS OUR SINS, AND “SIN NO MORE”.

            If you can’t understand this…..that can only mean YOU’RE TAKING THE “EASY WAY OUT”…..just like the ISRAELITE’S, by thinking God will AUTOMATICALLY HAVE GRACE ON YOU.

            Haven’y you learned ANYTHING FROM THEIR “HISTORY STORY IN THE BIBLE”???

            What was the ONE THING THEY KEPT DOING WRONG??
            ANSWER….THEY KEPT DISOBEYING GOD.

            And God SWORE WITH LIFTED HAND THAT THOSE PEOPLE WILL “NEVER ENTER HIS REST”.

            Then God sent us JESUS….so that…IN JESUS’ OWN WORDS….”I CAME FOR THE SINNERS”, NOT THE RIGHTEOUS”……SO THAT THEY WILL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE “THROUGH ME”.

            Jesus OPENED THE GATE to Heaven….BUT WE MUST DO AS “HE COMMANDS in order to get in.

            JESUS AGAIN TELLS US “WHO THE SAINTS ARE” IN REVELATION 14;12….

            “these are the saints who OBEY GOD’S COMMANDS, and, HAVE FAITH IN JESUS ALSO”.

            I’m sorry that you’re too DENSE TO GET THIS SIMPLE THING, which is resonated in the ENTIRE BIBLE….except for PAUL’S WRITINGS.

            Now….go PROFESS YOUR FAITH IN PAUL AGAIN, and sleep well knowing you don’t have to do a DAMN THING.

            Isn’t that what we all want?….to do NOTHING, because IT’S TOO HARD??

            That’s why Jesus said YOU JUST “OVERCOME”.

            How do you OVERCOME with GRACE????

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Nothing is “BOTHERING ME” except your DECEPTION, which I’ve already stated.

            SO YOU CAN SAVE ALL THIS “JERRY ANALYSIS” FOR SOMEONE ELSE….

            “I believe you are wrong now Jerry and maybe that’s what bothers you the most? I’m not going to look into the other things because I believe you are probably wrong about that too. There is nothing new under the sun and I don’t believe you found something new in the Bible. You have been following me for awhile and I think you could use the things I’ve said in the past to get my attention.”.

            You are FLATTERING YOURSELF….I could really CARE LESS what you believe about “me”….I have no vanity that I’m trying to PROTECT, unlike you.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            According to JESUS “we are all Brother & sisters”……
            I DON’T SEE WHAT THAT HAS TO DO WITH “PETER & PAUL”.

            You WANT IT to mean that PETER IS “PAUL’S WITNESS”…….it doesn’t.
            It just means that Peter RESPECTED PAUL.

            This stuff is WAY OVER YOUR HEAD, and UNLESS YOU BELIEVE JESUS, we have nothing more to say to each other.

            How do you DISMISS WHAT JESUS SAID???
            That makes NO SENSE TO ME AS A “CHRISTIAN”.

            But, it makes prefect sense if you’re a PAULINIST, rather than a CHRISTIAN BELIEVER IN JESUS CHRIST’S OWN WORDS.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Here you say I’M TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND YOU…

            “I wish you well Jerry, but I don’t think that we can really talk much more. We seem to be on opposite sides. I don’t think that I can explain grace to your satisfaction and I don’t believe in a graceless God.”

            I NEVER SAID GOD WAS “GRACELESS”……God is purely full of Grace & Compassion”.

            DON’T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!!

            I never said God was GRACELESS….now you’re being a LIAR TOO???

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I’M 61 YEARS OLD LISA……I THINK I KNOW “WHAT GRACE IS”.

            In fact…I gave you a DICTIONARY OF THE MEANING OF IT.

            I’ve been studying the Word Of God for over 40 years, and I know that GOD BLESSES ME ‘EVERYDAY….even though I’m NOT WORTHY OF IT.

            You’d do better trying all this on an INFANT CHRISTIAN…..they are more easily INFLUENCED by the “FREE GRACE GARBAGE”.

            I’m an OLD PRO…I’ve I’ve spent all of 40 years PROVING THOSE “SAME DOCTRINES” THAT YOU ARE PITCHING RIGHT NOW.

            IN FACT, THEY ALL ORIGINATE FROM THE SAME CATHOLIC CHURCH YOU DESPISE.

            In other words….I’ve already heard all this BEFORE.
            And you’re not the first to tell me I’m DUMB,

            I have great pity for you because of this.

            I’D RATHER RELY ON JESUS WITH MY SOUL, THAN “GAMBLE WITH PAUL’S WORDS”.

            That’s what you’re doing……HAVE AT IT.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Lastly……I guess what I’m really trying to say is ths…

            “GRACE IS NOT YOURS TO CLAIM – IT MUST BE EARNED”.

            And that can only be done BY OBEYING GOD’S COMMANDMENTS.

            Good Bye>

          • Lisa

            Goodbye Jerry

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            One last thing….you also PROVED who the TWO WITNESSES ARE with what you posted…..

            “”For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus”

            THOSE ARE THE “TWO WITNESSES”…..clearly written in the Bible.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            One last thing….you also PROVED who the TWO WITNESSES ARE with what you posted…..

            “”For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus”

            THOSE ARE THE “TWO WITNESSES”…..clearly written in the Bible.

            Thanks for “proving my case”.

            ( rending this to your “Current Account”….not the one that’s 8 years old )

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Here’s what “JESUS SAID” about “BEING SAVED”…..

            Matthew 19….

            The Rich and the Kingdom of God

            16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

            17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

            18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

            Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

            20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

            21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

            22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

            23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

            25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

            26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

            27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

            28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

            Footnotes:

            Matthew 19:4 Gen. 1:27

            Matthew 19:5 Gen. 2:24

            Matthew 19:19 Exodus 20:12-16; Deut. 5:16-20

            Matthew 19:19 Lev. 19:18

            Matthew 19:29 Some manuscripts do not have or wife.

            ———————————————————

            I see Jesus saying; “GOD’S COMMANDMENTS”……

            “Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]””

            NOWHERE DO I SEE THE “WORD GRACE”.

            Show me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN??

            He REPEATS THAT in Revelation 14:12

            Revelation 14:12King James Version (KJV)

            12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that “keep the commandments of God”, and the “faith of Jesus”.

            ———————————————-

            I still don’t see the word GRACE ANYWHERE.

            my case is CLOSED.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S….Never say that any “INFORMATION” is “questionable”, because in one way or another, you will EITHER PROVE IT TRUE, OR, PROVE IT FALSE “According To The Bible”.

            I always remember ISAIAH’S FAMOUS WORDS when it comes to “Information”…..

            Isaiah 8:20 King James Version (KJV)

            20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

            —————————————-

            So, either they MATCH THE LAW & TESTIMONY OF JESUS, or, they DON’T.

            This also APPLIES TO “PAUL”.

            I read all that I can get my hands on….some is HELPFUL IN EXPOSING FALSEHOODS, and, some are helpful in PROVING TRUTH.

            I WIN, EITHER WAY!!!

          • Lisa

            Send me your email-it will be easier to converse that way.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Good Morning Lisa!!!
            I just woke up…LOL, and was glad to see your message.
            Let me know you have this email so that I can erase it, okay?
            [email protected]

            Send me a Hello, and I can attach the information I’m working on.

          • Lisa

            I have it but I have to go to work now and will email you later.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Okay, great…..I look forward to hearing from you.
            Have A GREAT DAY 🙂

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            This was your “opportunity” TO EXPRESS YOUR “CHRISTIAN DUTY”, as you wrote below……Instead you waited TWO DAYS to try to make me look like some kind of fool??

            All you had to do was say “JERRY, I DON’T AGREE WITH YOU”…..

            Instead you said…”THAT’S QUITE A REVELATION JERRY! WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE”??

            That’s being INSINCERE, with your “BAIT & SWITCH” statement below as follows….

            Lisa Lisa • 17 hours ago

            I feel that it is my Christian duty to let anyone who may read these comments know that I believe Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ.

            •Reply•Share ›

            ________________________

            Nothing is more DECEPTIVE than a person that ISN’T UPFRONT, and LATER comes back after TWO DAYS, and writes such an ATTACK AGAINST ME.

            Your “Christian Duty” WAS TO BE TRUTHFUL “IN THE BEGINNING”, instead of WASTING MY TIME, when you KNEW EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT OF YOUR PAL “PAUL”.

            Can your see your own DECEPTION????

            Probably NOT…..but, don’t rag on me with your “LITTLE GAMES”.

            “Suddenly & Amazingly”….you developed a “CHRISTIAN DUTY”.

            That would actually be FUNNY if it wasn’t so DECEPTIVE.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I can PROVE everything I say about PAUL.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Hi Lisa. I hope that we can reconcile things. Because I was being very genuine when I said that you do have a “Good Heart”, and you know much more than the average Christian. I’ve always liked the things you’ve said. So what? – we have a difference of opinion about Paul. That doesn’t change the rest of the things we do “agree on”. Until this time “we never brought up the subject of Paul”…not once. Honestly, he doesn’t “change” what is written elsewhere in the Bible, and that’s where I concentrate most of my attention. There are more “reasons” that I don’t accept Paul as a “prophet”, which I never explained to you – but, I did touch on what I called “The Center Piece Of All Prophecy”, which was in the book of “Daniel 9”. This “prophecy”, as it’s written, says that the 70 Sevens will bring in the “End Of Sin, & the End Of Prophecy”.

            I take that “literally”.

            What it means is: “By the time of the Seventy Sevens All Prophecy Will End”. This is all intertwined with the “Completion Of The Walls” of Jerusalem, which was on September 24th 455 BC, up to when “Jesus Was Baptized On September 24th 28 AD”. That date ended “483 years Exactly”…..to the “Very Day”.

            Of course, you remember me saying that Jesus had “Prophesied” for 3 1/2 Years, until His Death in March 24th, 32 AD.

            Now the only “proof” I can offer to back up the fact that “Prophecy Had Ended”, and that “Jesus Was The Last Prophet”, is the “Parable Of The Tenants” in Matthew 21:33-37 as follows;
            ( Pay particular attention to verse 37, where it says: “Last Of ALL” )

            The Parable of the Tenants

            33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

            35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 “Last of all, he sent his son to them”. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

            ______________________________________

            I use this “parable” to also dispute “Islam”, and their so-called “Prophet Mooohamad”.
            As I know that “Jesus Was The LAST PROPHET”….so that means that “Anyone” that comes “After Jesus” claiming to be a “Prophet” is false.
            Jesus told us that “False Prophets” would follow “AFTER HIM”, and Jesus also told us “NOT TO BELIEVE THEM”.
            I’m not trying to be cruel……I’m simply “Obeying What Jesus Told Me To Do”.
            In your own words you claimed, as well as Paul claimed, “That He Was A Prophet”.
            It can’t be disputed that “Paul Came AFTER JESUS”…..right?

            I’m not trying to “Convert You”……I’m simply “Stating Facts”….these aren’t “MY FACTS”, these are the “Words Of Jesus”.
            Whether you chose to believe the or not, is strictly up to you.
            But, I haven’t “Lied” about one thing I’ve said…..I just may have not have told you “Everything”, because it is so “Vast”, and spans 490 Years, and includes books like “Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Zechariah, Malachi, Micah, Haggai, Hosea, and lastly DANIEL”.

            I told you that I was on the verge of a “Major Breakthrough”….not that I found “Something New Under The Sun”……this has been here for over 2500 years.
            All I’m doing is “Putting It All Into It’s Proper Perspective”, so that EVERYONE CAN UNDERSTAND IT……I want everyone to see the “Chronology” of this “Prophecy” that way it was “Meant To Be Read”, not the way that the “Bible Compiler’s” put it together.

            That’s what’s throwing everyone off…..the “Books” are NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER in the Bible.
            An example would be; “EZRA IS LISTED AFTER CHRONICLES, FOLLOWED BY NEHEMIAH, FOLLOWED BY ESTHER”.
            First of all……”ESTHER CAME FIRST”, then ‘NEHEMIAH AFTER ESTHER”, then “EZRA AFTER NEHEMIAH”……..I’ve already “PROVEN THIS”…..I have the “Historical Proof”.
            Second of all….”EZRA SHOULD BE THE LAST BOOK OF THE OLD TESTAMENT”, because that’s where “PROPHECY ENDED ON SEPTEMBER 24th 455 BC – UP UNTIL JESUS FINISHED IT, BEGINNING IN SEPTEMBER 24th 28 AD – TO MARCH 24th 32 AD”.

            That’s what I was trying to tell you when you said “HELLO JERRY, HOW ARE YOU”.
            But, I never got to FINISH IT…because we went into “OTHER BOOKS CORRUPTED IN THE BIBLE”.
            We both “Agreed” that the “Catholic Church” had their dirty hands in this.

            Guess what?……I found out a couple of days ago “WHO CHANGED THOSE 10 YEARS” in the Bible.

            How did I do that?……I went to the ORIGINAL HEBREW BIBLE, and it says the exact SAME THING as it’s written in the Bible.

            So, now I know WHO THE CULPRIT IS…..it was the JEWS.

            They NEEDED to make it “APPEAR THAT 70 YEARS HAD PASSED SINCE THE TEMPLE WAS COMPLETED IN 515 BC, TO THE TIME THE WALLS WERE COMPLETED IN 445 BC”.

            It’s the ONLY remain possibility…IN WHICH THE “JEWS BOAST IN THE HEBREW BIBLE THAT IT WAS 70 YEARS”………that’s my “Proof”….they did all that to make it “Appear The God Did This In 70 Years”.

            That simple LITTLE CHANGE altered the REMAINING BOOKS, as well as ALTERING THE “COMING OF JESUS CHRIST”…….because “Daniel’s Prophecy” TOLD US “WHEN JESUS WOULD COME”.

            That’s BIG.

            Remember…the JEWS HATED JESUS…..the last thing they would do is “LEAVE IN A PROPHECY THAT PROCLAIMED WHEN HE WOULD COME”…..which is DANIEL 9.

            In other words….”They KNEW The Prophecy Of His Coming Date”.
            THIS WOULD ALSO EXPLAIN “WHY KING HEROD KILLED ALL THE FIRSTBORN IN BETHLEHEM”.
            Why?….because THEY KNEW THE “MESSIAH’S BIRTH DATE”, which can easily be “Traced Backward From The date He Was Baptized”, as that date He was “30 Years Old Exactly”.

            Now here are some more affirmations of Jesus’s BIRTH DATE……
            The date the “Foundation Of The 2nd Temple Was Laid Was September 24th 539 BC”.
            The date the “Walls Were Completed Was September 24th 455 BC”
            The date that “Jesus Was Born Was September 24th 2 BC”.

            In all the times the “FOUNDATION WAS LAID, & THE WALLS WERE COMPLETED”, which was “September 24th”….”BOTH TIMES THE JEWS SAID – THIS IS A SACRED DAY”.

            Like WOW….I’m tying together SO MANY PROPHECIES….and, everyone of them “REVEAL A CERTAIN TRUTH THAT HAS BEEN KEPT FROM US FOR OVER 2500 YEARS”.

            Another TRUTH would be the “Dispensing Of God’s HOLY DAYS”…..these are the “SET TIMES”.
            This is when we start getting into the “ANTI-CHRIST”, and the “LAWLESS ONE” you asked me about in your post above….WHICH I NEVER ANSWERED CORRECTLY for you.

            You asked the “Right Questions”, but, I never got to give you the “Right Answers”, because the SUBJECT HAD CHANGED FROM WHAT I WAS DOING – TO PAUL.

            That doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to know the “ANSWERS” to the “Questions You Asked”.
            Which is WHY I’m writing this now.
            I know you said…”I probably shouldn’t listen to the REST of what I said”…..THAT’S NOT FAIR TO ME, OR YOU.

            I think I’ve given GOOD REASONS to “Why” I believe as I do about Paul. Could I be “wrong”?….Only God knows that.
            But, that’s NOT A GOOD REASON for you to say that EVERYTHING I’VE SAID IS FALSE.
            We have a “Difference Of Opinion About PAUL ONLY”…….nothing else!!!!

            The funny part is….HE DOESN’T EVEN EQUATE IN WHAT I’M DOING, OR SAYING.
            That was a “Side Step”, and a “Change Of Subject”, which, quite frankly “YOU ASKED ABOUT”.

            You also said that “I WANT SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH EVERYTHING I’M SAYING”.
            Is that fair to me?
            We have ONE DISAGREEMENT….and that’s your response?

            I mean, come on!!…if everyone AGREED we wouldn’t be in the state we are in right now.
            WHO, IN THEIR “RIGHT MIND, EXPECTS ANYONE TO FULLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY SAY”?

            We may NOT AGREE on “Paul”…..but, THAT HARDLY MAKES ME INSANE, OR A MADMAN LOOKING FOR MY ARMY OF ROBOTS TO DO AS I COMMAND.

            That was UNFAIR for you to say that about me.

            The TRUTH is ….I could care less about Paul….it has NOTHING TO DO WITH “THE BIG PICTURE”.

            That’s the “difference between you & me”…..while you may be fixated on Paul, I’m actually taking in “THE ENTIRE BIBLE”…..I don’t “limit myself to Paul”……nor do I limit myself to “Being SAVED”……..either I will be, or I won’t.
            The FACT IS….I HAVE “NO SAY IN THAT MATTER”…….it is STRICTLY UP TO GOD, and that’s where I lay my feet – “AT HIS MERCY”.
            You rightly said…”GOD WILL GIVE MERCY TO WHOM HE WILL GIVE MERCY”.
            I couldn’t AGREE more.
            I will cross that path on the “Judgement Day”, no sooner than ANYONE ELSE.
            I have no delusions that I will automatically BE SAVED….even though I do my best to “Repent”, and try NOT TO SIN…..that’s at least BETTER THAN JUST WAITING FOR A “GIFT”.
            What would you have me DO???
            Is that NOT a good PATH to be on????
            The difference, and, what I believe to be the “deception” is that most Christians are claiming something THAT ISN’T THEIRS “YET”…….if they were “ALREADY SAVED – THEY’D BE WEARING WHITE ROBES, AND WOULD BE HERE”.

            My “Reasoning & Logic” are sound – to me…..it may not be what the rest of the Christians believe….and I’m okay with that….BECAUSE NO ONE HAS COME BACK TO TELL US – ETHER WAY.
            So, what difference does it make to YOU??
            How do you explain SHUNNING ME?……especially when you don’t know the truth either??
            Is that a good “Christian Attitude”??
            Hardly.

            But Jesus said…”whenever two or more are gathered in MY NAME, there I will be also”.
            “I’M SPEAKING IN HIS NAME”.

            Why do you think THEY “GATHER”??…..to “talk things over”…NOT TO SHUN.

            Now, like I said earlier here….I would like to answer those “remaining question you had”, but, if you already think “I’m Insane”, and I have NOTHING TO “CONTRIBUTE”…..what’s the point??

            I leave that UP TO YOU.

            Have a Blessed day, Lisa.

          • Guest

            All you just PROVED IS THAT YOU’RE A B-I-A-T-C-H.

            Keep it PRIVATE..
            You’ve just proven that YOU’RE NO CHRISTIAN.

            good bye

            C U NEXT TUESDAY.

          • Sientje Seinen

            lisa you are doing the very things which you condemn others with, as no one wants to see someone go to hell, as the Lord came to save not to condemn, and He is long suffering towards us, so that none will perish, you sound just like the pharisee,who stood and looked up to heaven and said “I am glad I am not like that publican over there a sinner” and the publican not daring even to look up to heaven beat his breast saying “Lord forgive me a sinner,” which one went to his home more justified, Do you not listen to the parables that Christ tells us?

          • Lisa

            What things am I doing to condemn other? Not sure your point here.

          • Sientje Seinen

            but isnt that what Christ told us, “If they hate me, they will hate you also” if they persecute me, they will persecute you also, I guess yes we do get offended by people telling us God does not exist, since you cant prove that either, whereas I can point you to certain things which will prove that the Lord God is very much at work.

          • Lisa

            Why be offended? You know God exists. Why would you point me to those things-I already know Jesus?

  • Sparky

    He’ll really won’t appreciate it when Jesus tells him to “depart from Me, I never knew you.”

    • Eddie frOly

      Exactly! !!

    • OldArkie

      Jesus will 1st tell him, “I never knew you,” Them he will partake of the 2nd death, and all he will see is ‘doom and gloom.’

      • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

        ..The God That Nobody Hates – Modern Day Jesus
        tinysa.com/sermon/9414036273

        The Christ Of The Bible Divides – Do You Follow Him?
        tinysa.com/sermon/914141720103

        The World Hates Christ
        tinysa.com/sermon/122712254310

        The Evolution of Pop Culture Christianity
        tinysa.com/sermon/102914233270

        • OldArkie

          Sin divides, and most sinners while knowing they’re sinning. God made us
          for His own pleasure and is free to do with us whatever He chooses. Yet when we
          turned to sin He gave his Son to give us “Victory over Death” taking the sting
          out of death for us, 1 Corinthians 15:55, so that we would not have to suffer
          the 2nd death. The 2nd death is going to be very unpleasant. Are you going to
          experience the 2nd death? If so that can be changed.

          Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I
          confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
          Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny
          before my Father which is in heaven.

          Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
          yourselves: it is the gift of God:
          Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

          God has shown us mercy and grace through His Son, & if we will repent,
          place out faith in Jesus, them turn from sin and follow Jesus, Matthew 16:24, we will not suffer
          the 2nd death.

          And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my
          disciple. Luke 14:27;
          And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,
          is not worthy of me.” Matthew 10:38

          Its up to you, your choice of which place you will spend eternity, the
          choice you make, God will respect whatever you chose, your able to participate in the resurrection of your choice.

          Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the
          resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of
          damnation.

          Which will be yours, the resurrection of life, or the resurrection of
          damnation along with the 2nd death.

          Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
          second death.

          • wandakate

            We are either going to attend the Supper of the Lamb, or the White Throne Judgment. One will celebrate our eternity with JESUS, the other will cast judgment on us and deliver us to the evil one. It is our choice, we do seal our own fate, we have a free will to make our own choices. We must choose wisely.

    • Liz Layton

      Except Jesus is just a dude who lived a long time ago. LOL

      • ort

        Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, equal to God Himself in all ways. If you are saved because you repented of your sins, He is your Savior. If not, He will be your judge.
        Don’t “LOL” yourself right into hell. There’s nothing funny about that.

        • Liz Layton

          I believe that if there is a higher power or powers, that they are maternal, and/or genderless. Also, I do not believe in Hell, so I am able to laugh a little more than some others. Thank you for providing your view though, it is fascinating and odd to me.

          • ort

            You’re welcome.

          • thomg875

            LOL so you will go with a designer god you decide is better? Seems a bit risky to me, I will stick with the God of Abraham. I am not sure why you say you can laugh a little more than others because you don’t believe in Hell. I know many Christians who laugh and rejoice everyday knowing the freedom Christ has given them. I find you would think there might be a higher power but box them into an idea you require a little odd. Do you search for this higher power?

      • Jan van Niekerk

        Except Jesus is THE dude who rose from the dead, and will come to judge the living and the dead. LOL that.

    • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

      .The God That Nobody Hates – Modern Day Jesus
      tinysa.com/sermon/9414036273

      The Christ Of The Bible Divides – Do You Follow Him?
      tinysa.com/sermon/914141720103

      The World Hates Christ
      tinysa.com/sermon/122712254310

      The Evolution of Pop Culture Christianity
      tinysa.com/sermon/102914233270

    • wandakate

      It sounds like he’s an atheist minister. Doesn’t satan appear as an angel of light? Satan has his own churches and his own ministers. If he doesn’t believe in GOD and JESUS, heaven and hell, an antichrist and a false prophet, and Angels and demons and eternity and the second coming (the appearing of JESUS) then he is no minister of GOD’s. He is preaching another gospel, but it’s not the gospel of JESUS CHRIST and His church. So, we were warned that in these last days, false ministers would come not sparing the flock. If people fall for this, then they are as deceived as the person deceiving them. They are the blind leading the blind…

    • Sientje Seinen

      Paul persecuted the early church and look what happened to Him, we are not to say who goes to heaven and who does not, as only the Lord can see into the hearts of mankind.with God all things are possible, hopefully his parishioners are praying for him.

      • mallen11

        How did Paul persecute the early church? How can his parishioners pray for him is they are not taught how to pray and to whom?

        • Guenther Wolegaz

          She probably means Paul when he was still Saul. 😉

  • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

    Yep.. sign of the times.

    • Jody Lancaster

      Yes there will be a great falling away of the Church before Christ comes again. I guess this is some of it.

  • Lisa

    2 Timothy 4:3-4
    There will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires and will turn their ears away from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
    I wonder how big his congregation is?

    • G Smith

      Probably huge.

  • TheBBP

    Things have sure escalated quickly recently. We have had that church in Florida running adult nightclubs to the Presbyterian church up and deciding that homosexuality is not a sin. Now we have this “Pastor” who outright does not even believe in God but wants to be called a “Christian”?

    Wow.

    • Jody Lancaster

      Agreed. Things are moving very quickly. I do think the signs of the times are here. I am very annoyed at how some Churches have become and how liberal our country has become. Anything goes. But in the end Jesus will judge a know only the true Christians.

      • Guest

        We stopped going to our local church because we didn’t like what was being preached. We now don’t go to any church because there isn’t another locally. I found my faith has strengthened since, I read a lot especially on the net, yet the Bible says we should gather together. Difficult if you gather with the wrong group, lovely people that they are.

        • Jody Lancaster

          I know what you mean. I watch Jack Van Impe every Sunday morning; he is also on Saturday nights. I have got more information from his preachings than anywhere else. He knows his Scriptures and has them lined up with what is happening today.

  • Maggi Fitzgibbon Escamilla

    The Presbyterian church has split into 2 main branches apparently. Presbyterian USA and Presbyterian PCA. The PCA believe in the authority of God’s word. They teach the bible. They support traditional marriage and they absolutely will not ordain anyone participating in gay lifestyle in accordance with God’s word. Presby Chruch USA will in fact, ordain gay candidates and support gay marriange. They are lead by more secular humanist philosophy. Most deny Christ’s deity and call the bible mythical. Don’t shoot the messenger folks. Personally, I don’t know why they would want to be called Christian if they are so set against the bible and Christ’s deity.

    • TJefferson44

      Because they are the tares Jesus spoke about.

  • Frank

    Reminds me of the false prophets and kings of old in Israel.

  • Raphael Merriman

    Yeah, if you don’t believe in God, or any divine entity at all, it’s called “atheism”. Just saying.

  • Xeb97

    Is this from Monty Python?

  • G Smith

    I don’t believe him. Seems like he’s trying to get famous. His philosophical statements are too ridiculous to take seriously. He’s a poser and not a very good one. Way too obvious. However, he’s still in danger of hell’s fire because he’s leading people astray. Jesus and the apostles warned us about these false prophets and hirelings in the pulpit.

  • Jeanine Schaefer

    I have been saying for a long time that ANYONE can CALL themselves a Christian, but it doesn’t make it true. Mathew 7:15-17 “15”Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”

  • Jeanine Schaefer

    I have been saying for a long time that ANYONE can CALL themselves a Christian, but it doesn’t make it true. Mathew 7:15-17 “15”Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.”

  • http://danbel.webspawner.com Dan Beliveau

    the answer to this person is simple. You call yourself a Christian but say you don’t believe in God. Thats great except for one thing. A Christian is a follower of Christ and Jesus is God. So I guess your out of luck.

    • Kathie H

      Unless you don’t believe Christ IS God, but still follow his teachings.

      • http://danbel.webspawner.com Dan Beliveau

        Kathie, thinking Jesus is a great teacher but not God makes you anything but a Christian. Although it may be a good gesture it falls short and will lead to damnation. This isn’t a study of Universalism, it’s about Christianity. http://danbel.webspawner.com/page2/

        • Sientje Seinen

          Actually Christ is the Son of God, as He was with the Father at the beginning of creation. He is part of the Godhead, God the father, Christ the Son and the Holy spirit which work together for the salvation of mankind, There is no other saviour beside our Lord, as He came to reconcile us by His death,to God the Father.

          • http://danbel.webspawner.com Dan Beliveau

            I said the same thing. Did you bother to look at the link? I appreciate trying to teach me, but I think I have that down.

  • http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EvidencefortheBible/ Galut1

    I will have to leave him feeling offended…and pray that God will open his blind eyes

  • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

    I think it is MUCH more base than that. He still claims to be a minister and a Christian for the money. He’s in fine company with tons of other “pastors” in Protestant Churches since the 1820s or so.

  • Tom Stewart

    What a ‘wacko’. I wonder what he thinks defines him as a Christian. If the Presbyterian Church had an ounce of God’s presence left they would give him the boot, but they have gone down the drain…..

  • Daniel Allen

    John Shuck . Listen to Sparky.

  • Mr. Farid

    I don’t believe Shuck has ‘infiltrated’ the Church at all. I think he is who
    he is, but does what he does as a minister because he can live cheaper,
    avoid certain taxes and make a lot more money somewhat legitimately than
    he could as a simple, outright charlatan.

  • Eddie frOly

    Chritianity= believing that Jesus is God’s Son who came in the flesh and gave His life for ours as a sin offering to cover the debts man kind could never pay. How does believing anything other than that qualify you to one preach His word and two to even call yourself a Christian? Wow some people are all kinds of special. This is exactly why we need Christian Apologists who are not affraid to confront idiocy like this when it presents itself!

  • Steve Buckley

    Apparently, he’s either missed or ignored Paul’s warning to Timothy.
    Those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. From who, assiduously avoid.

  • Jeffery Kinkead

    The great apostasy continues: 4. Apostasy – End Times Prophecies Fulfilled: http://youtu.be/hZBIuDQHdJ8

  • Laurellynne McHardie Greaves

    Not only is the man not a bible believing God fearing and God loving Christian…….HE is a FOOL. Oh yes I said it, a fool because that is what the bible calls him (you can argue with me but try arguing with GOD……lol) Psalms 14:1-3: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does
    good. (2) The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there
    are any who understand, any who seek God. (3) All have turned aside, they
    have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. “The man also calls himself a PROUD minister The kind of pride that stems from self-righteousness is sin, and God hates it because it is a hindrance to seeking Him. Psalm 10:4
    explains that the proud are so consumed with themselves that their
    thoughts are far from God: “In his pride the wicked does not seek him;
    in all his thoughts there is no room for God.” This kind of haughty
    pride is the opposite of the spirit of humility that God seeks:

  • April Cooper

    I don’t know why he is offended when people say he’s not a Christian. The word itself comes from Christ. Christians are Christ’s followers. If he is not a Christ follower, he shouldn’t call himself a Christian. I don’t even know why he would want to.

  • Mike Fitch

    His claim about being a Christian makes about as much sense as someone saying they are pro choice and that they believe abortion should always be illegal.

  • Joel Funk

    For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. ~ Romans 1:20

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Absolutely, but they have been blinded. And remember that the more they play around with the darkness, the more seared their consciences become, and the more blinded they become. Vicious circle.

  • Mr. Avatar

    We need a list of Churches that are not real Christians and why.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Would take up too many pages. Better method: when you attend a church for the first time, “sniff” the air for poison. Spiritual disease will manifest itself right quickly.

  • http://www.rockhamptonlutheran.com Rob Edwards

    why do the words, “Money for Nothin'” suddenly spring to mind? I think a man with any integrity would stand down from his position.

  • Gary Metzger

    I don’t care if you don’t appreciate it or not, sir. You are NOT a Christian. A Christian is one who is a disciple of Christ, who was God in the flesh, and HAD to be in order to give His life as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. Take your heresy somewhere else; stop calling yourself a Presbyterian and a minister. You are none of those things. What you ARE is a liar and a deceiver, and one day you will appear before God to explain yourself. Wouldn’t want to be you on that day. How smug and arrogant you must be.

  • Sherry

    He probably doesn’t read his Bible either. How can he be a Christ with in if he does not even believe that what was written about Jesus is true? May God have mercy on his soul he needs prayer!

  • Clive Johnson

    There’s even a relatively new organization devoted to assisting pastors and other ‘religious professionals’ who are leaving the faith for agnosticism and atheism:

    http://clergyproject.org

    • Faithwalker

      What!!

  • Blueray Andrews

    …I realize more everyday why I must pray and read GODs word, diligently, daily,,,ground myself in His spirit of truth,,,seems as tho deceivers, false teachers are sprouting up everywhere,,,if this false teacher is irritated at the truth here, he’ll definitely hate it when JESUS tells Him He never knew Him,,,Shalom…….

  • http://theobservatorium.blogspot.com/ Nate

    He has a blog called ‘Shuck and Jive’? Apropos…

  • Kathie H

    Biblical arguments about this are pointless. The two world views about the bible – really more than two – are just not compatible, but all of you who are so positive you are right about God and Jesus and Salvation are no more likely to be right than Rev Shuck. Everyone is on their own individual spiritual journey. I find Rev Shuck to be far more Christlike than most of the commenters here in that he is a truer follower of who I believe Jesus was, based on what we know of his teachings. Therefore absolutely he can call himself a Christian.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Nope: Jesus told His followers that the Truth would set them free (and remember, He said “Thy Word [God’s word] is truth.”) But anyone who is not in Christ does not have His Spirit, and hence not His mind, either.

  • http://www.smilesandstuff.com/ Melissa Canchola

    Good job, Andrew Rappaport. 🙂

  • Beleaguered

    This guy is an oxy-moron

  • Tina Taylor

    this does not represent my views at all- came from PCUSA to EPC Presbyterian- I would leave this particular pastor behind. http://pastors.com/the-7-marks-of-discipleship/

  • Johnny Nick Hager

    A wolf in sheeps clothing. Stay away from false profits! Jesus is the only way, truth, and life!

  • Firstallie

    Maybe he will become so offended, he won’t call himself a Christian anymore. That would be poetic justice.

  • Linda

    I really don’t feel that I need to address this, except to say that he is a wolf among sheep. If the Pres. Church allows him to hold his ordination, than it is the church we need to worry about. Run, don’t walk, from this denomination, and head to a Bible believing, and God fearing church.

  • Janine G

    Further evidence of this being the Last Days.

  • Sean

    Christ means anointed. If there is no God who anointed Christ? Therefore he cant say he’s a Christian because he doesn’t believe that Jesus is Christ.

  • Leah Bates

    Jesus said “I and the Father are one”. We will all answer one day to God. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

  • John Cate

    He’s an atheist presumably following Christian ethics and morality. But still an atheist, and definitely not a Christian.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Um, no, if he’s denying Christ (which is a lie), then he’s DEFinitely not practicing Christian ethics and morality; he might be practicing moralism of some sort (albeit a truncated one—again, because of the lying), but not Christian ethics and morality, no.

  • Carlo Magno

    Christian

    (krĭs′chən)
    adj.
    1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and
    teachings of Jesus.
    2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
    3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus, especially in showing concern for others.
    4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
    n.
    1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows a religion based on the life and
    teachings of Jesus.
    2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

    So why does this guy think he can call himself a follower of Christ when he denies the very essence of Christ as God? End of story….. maybe he should find a palm reading gig or circus church of clowns 🙂

    • Clarpy

      He’s no presbyterian either

  • Clarpy

    John Shuck – you’re not a Christian. Not even close.

  • Mike M

    I have noticed for several years that God is “weeding out” those who he as not chosen. Just remember that Christ He would build HIS CHURCH – the pagans have their “own kind of godless church” – one of which we are NOT a part of. MARANATHA

  • Dr. Dee Tee

    the word ‘Christian’ means ‘Christ-like’ and if he wants to be called Christian then he needs to believe in God and his existence or he wouldn’t be Christ-like or Christian

    • LadySunami

      You can absolutely be like Christ without believing in God, just as you can be like Christ without being a first century Jewish carpenter. I mean, Christ did all sorts of things besides believeing in God. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, helped the poor, taught his followers, etc.

      • Dr. Dee Tee

        are you really that stupid?

        • LadySunami

          Nope. in order to be “like X” you don’t need to be identical to X.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            True, Christ-like can mean simply similar to Christ. Problem is, it’s not our Christlikeness that will get us into heaven. It’s only HIS righteousness, imputed to us by Him, that will. And that requires us to believe/trust in Him as our Savior and Lord.

          • LadySunami

            If that’s true then God is an entity of immense cruelty willing to sentence humans to infinite torture for the “crime” of not believing the correct religion.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            He doesn’t sentence people to it, they themselves choose it. Let’s say there’s a city (like the one in Camus’ book THE PLAGUE) beset by pestilence. But there’s a remedy for it that anyone can come and get who wants it. Whoever refuses it gets banished from the city, for the sake of public health. When they die outside the city, they can’t blame anyone but themselves for it.

            Heaven is a bit like that: no sin contamination can enter there. Jesus’ imputed righteousness is the only antidote to it. If a person refuses that antidote, then it’s their choice. They had fair forewarning, they had their chance, they didn’t want the cure.

          • LadySunami

            That’s not analogous at all.

            First off, there are generally ways to tell if someone actually has the plague. Sin? Not so much. People can’t even agree on what sin actually is.

            Second, the supposed effects of the remedy cannot actually be seen. People who have accepted the “antidote” die just the same as the rest of us. It’s not as though we can look around and see that Christians are somehow “getting over” their undetectable plague symptoms. Even the fate it is meant to save us from is reserved until after our death, leaving us with no way to prove said terrible fate exists at all.

            Third, there are a great many other supposed plagues (like karma) and remedies (like Buddhist enlightenment) that we are being presented with. Those other plagues are similarly undetectable and their remedies untestable. Taking all the antidotes isn’t possible, as they are incompatible with one another, so we must pick only one to take. How are we to tell which, if any, is the right cure?

            It’s less like throwing people out of a city if they don’t take a plague remedy and more like forcing people to choose one door amongst many with no knowledge of what is on the other side and no way to return or communicate with their loved ones after they’ve crossed the threshold. All that anyone has to go on are a bunch of rumors and hearsay about people a long, long time ago supposedly coming back through one door or another and revealing what is beyond.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Sin is anything contrary to God’s design for man.

            “Taking all the antidotes isn’t possible, as they are incompatible with
            one another, so we must pick only one to take. How are we to tell which,
            if any, is the right cure?”

            EXCELLENT question! The Resurrection is what gives credence to the Christian antidote. None of the other religions have God coming in the flesh and resurrecting. Read WHO MOVED THE STONE for more indepth insight into that.

          • LadySunami

            Right, but what is or isn’t contrary to God’s design for man? People can’t even agree between Christian denominations let alone Muslims, Christians and Jews agreeing on the matter.

            The resurrection doesn’t give credence to anything. The only reason you think God coming into the flesh and resurrecting actually happened is because you are Christian. For that matter, the only reason you think God becoming flesh and resurrecting is even important is because you are Christian. Why should a non-Christian care that you believe this happened? You’re acting as though the tenets of your faith are somehow objectively important.

          • Els

            Very good analogy!

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Thanks, but she wasn’t convinced (not sure why her reply isn’t showing up here—maybe she deleted it? {shrugs}). Here’s what she wrote:

            “That’s not analogous at all.

            First off, there are generally ways to tell if someone actually has the plague. Sin? Not so much. People can’t even agree on what sin actually is.

            Second,the supposed effects of the remedy cannot actually be seen. People who have accepted the “antidote” die just the same as the rest of us. It’s not as though we can look around
            and see that Christians are somehow “getting over” their undetectable plague symptoms. Even the fate it is meant to save us from is reserved until after our death, leaving us with no way to prove said terrible fate exists at all.

            Third, there are a great many other supposed plagues (like karma) and remedies (like Buddhist enlightenment) that we are being presented with. Those other plagues are similarly undetectable and their remedies untestable. Taking all the antidotes isn’t possible, as they are incompatible with one another, so we must pick only one to take. How are we to tell which, if any, is the right cure?

            It’s less like throwing people out of a city if they don’t take a plague remedy and more like forcing people to choose one door amongst many with no knowledge of what is on the other
            side and no way to return or communicate with their loved ones after they’ve crossed the threshold. All that people who still need to choose have to go on are a bunch of rumors and hearsay about people a long, long time ago supposedly coming back through one door or another and revealing what is beyond.”

            I then defined sin for her and reminded her that the Resurrection is the key to the authenticity of Christian faith.

          • Els

            That’s just playing games. The fact is, if someone did her wrong, say for example, put a bullet in the head of someone she loved, she would be saying it was a wrong/sinful/evil act. In which case, one would be appealing to absolutes-i.e that is absolutely wrong to kill someone. Oh, yeah! says who?? How can you tell whether someone has committed sin?? well look in the mirror, for a start. If that doesn’t work and one is feeling a bit self righteous-take a visit to a local prison. The games that atheists play!

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Again, if there’s only one antidote to the pestilence, then if someone doesn’t want it, that’s their choice. He’s not going to force anyone to spend eternity with Him. Love can not be forced, after all.

            We’re not talking “right religion” here, we’re talking grabbing the life ring that is Christ. Big difference. Religion is a placebo, but Christ is Life itself.

          • LadySunami

            I think you missed the point. The only reason you believe there is a pestilence called sin and that Christ is the antidote is because you are a specific type of Christian. If a person isn’t Christian, why on earth would they think Jesus was the antidote to anything?

  • https://bradshockley.wordpress.com/ Brad Shockley

    The most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read. This guy might as well be a pastafarian.

  • Paul Hiett

    I don’t think this guy quite understands what being a Christian is. I’m an atheist and I’m shaking my head at his thinking…

    • Crono478

      Yeah, I’m not sure if you already know that there is a new study that is recently released this month. It found that 21% of USA population are already atheists. It was once a very small minority but it is growing very rapidly. This minister is part of this who help fuel this rapid growth.

      • Paul Hiett

        Atheism is growing rapidly, especially (and obviously) in the more westernized countries. Also, the younger generations are turning away from such ancient ideals in droves, as the information they have access to is exponentially greater than any other generation. They’re simply educating themselves.

        • Crono478

          We do agree to disagree when it comes to belief. Let’s put this aside for now. I only wanted to show that statistics do show that the number of atheists are growing very fast. Also, there are many Christian denominations and more of them do not believe in God or even accept Bible as authoritative and inerrant. If they don’t believe in that, then what’s the point for them? If they don’t believe in God, then who are they worshiping??? This does not make sense at all.

          • Paul Hiett

            In a case like this, the pastor should step down and allow the church to find someone who believes in the Presbyterian faith’s line of thinking. It’s really quite unfair to those who go there expecting to be led in that fashion.

          • Gary

            The pcusa is apostate. If they were not, they would have removed this guy before now.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Precisely, as are various other mainline denominations. But this is not surprising; the Scriptures predict a Great Apostasy.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Crono, the fallen nature loves to come up with one of 2 “solutions” to its predicament (bec. underneath everything, fallen nature knows it stands condemned in the face of a perfect God): either 1. make up all manner of fig leaves in the form of false religions, or else 2. deny that there’s any need for God or for His teachings. See, the Frog-To-Prince Just-So Story (aka Darwinism) gives man a perfect fig leaf: if there’s no God, then there’s nobody to tell us what’s right and wrong, or that there’s a design we were created for, which means we don’t have to worry about guilt. Huxley said that the reason they so enthusiastically in that day embraced Darwinism was because it “liberated” them from “bourgeois morality,” which is code for “God’s Law.”

      • @HawaiianTater

        As great as it would be if 21% of the USA population is already atheist, you read that information wrong. What you’re thinking of is 21% of the population are “nones”, meaning they don’t claim any religion. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are all atheists though. The good news is that we are trending in that direction. We’ll get there in our lifetimes.

        • Crono478

          That’s true, however, if people have not claimed any religion but hasn’t decided that they are atheist, they are not very far from that.

          HawaiianTater, it will happen for sure. I am not really surprised about this at all. Since the number of people departing from their faith, hostility towards faithful Christians are increasing too.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Having a problem with organized religion and being an outright atheist is not the same thing. A lot of these “nones” still claim a belief in God, they just don’t go to church and participate in religion. Either way, it’s still a huge step in the right direction for our country.

          • Crono478

            “Either way, it’s still a huge step in the right direction for our country.”

            Does it mean that you see that more of them will eventually lose their faith in God and become outright atheist over in time?

          • @HawaiianTater

            I do. Getting them out of the cults is the first step. Education will take them the rest of the way. Science is grand.

          • Crono478

            Okay, let’s say more people become atheists in the future, to the point that it is a majority in our nation. What if there is still a small but stubborn group of Christians who are faithful to God and Bible. How will everyone treat them as more of them have voice in how our nations should be run. That includes laws and so on.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Freedom of religion wouldn’t change. People should always be free to believe in whatever they want to believe in. I think what the problem will be is as their numbers dwindle, it’ll be the craziest ones who cling to it the tightest. The only reason Christianity isn’t called a cult now is because there are so many of them. I can envision a future where they are viewed as cultish.

          • Crono478

            “I can envision a future where they are viewed as cultish.”

            How will rest of people treat them when they are viewed more as “cultish”?

          • @HawaiianTater

            I, for one, would just ignore them as long as they aren’t hurting anybody. If they turn into a threat, then treat them like any other threat.

          • Crono478

            In the future, where atheists consists as the majority, how would you view this person who shares the gospel with you? Especially that he tells you that you are a sinner who needs to repent of sins and accept Jesus as your Savior.

          • Paul Hiett

            Atheists aren’t looking to suppress free speech, or free thought, or your right to believe what you want. We support your right to your churches, and to your marriage ceremonies in those churches. We support the right for you to raise your children as you wish in the religion you’ve chosen. Atheists, despite the constant claims of “persecuted” Christians, simply want equality for everyone, regardless of their gender, their race, or their sexual orientation.

            I think the only thing you would see from an atheistic society is more advancements in science and technology and medicine, and less intolerance based on religious ideals. You’d see no reference to any religion in our public schools or government offices, judicial buildings, etc.

            You’d also probably see less “gay pride” going on as SSM would be legalized, and eventually, like inter-racial marriage, you’d hear nothing about it.

          • Crono478

            Are you saying that we should just keep our religion in our churches and do not display our beliefs to anyone outside them?

            “We support the right for you to raise your children as you wish in the religion you’ve chosen.”

            That means you would support my right to teach my kids about Bible. That would include:

            1) God’s creation and why evolution is not true at all
            2) Truth about marriage, especially that it is between a man and woman
            3) Truth about us that all of us are born sinners and we did all kind of sins.
            4) Jesus did all work for us through the Cross
            5) We are to share gospel with others, that they might come to repentance.

            “I think the only thing you would see from an atheistic society is more advancements in science and technology and medicine, and less intolerance based on religious ideals. You’d see no reference to any religion in our public schools or government offices, judicial buildings, etc.”

            No, sinful behaviors such as homosexuality, adultery, thief, blasphemy, lying and so on will be on rise. That is true especially when all references to Bible are removed from all public buildings. They don’t want to see the light and want to do what they desire.

            That is the actual advancements we will witness rather than what we would see in science, technology and medicine.

          • Paul Hiett

            Religion belongs in your church and your home. It does not belong in our public schools or government.

          • Crono478

            If you believe that it should be confined to home and church, then how will people know what is right and wrong? How are people supposed to know the truth? That is really why Christians cannot just confine their beliefs to specific areas. We share our beliefs everywhere we go.

          • Paul Hiett

            When you can demonstrate that your religion is the right one, and that everyone else in the world is wrong, then you can attempt to establish your choice of religion as law. Until then, you must accept all religions as being equal, including the idea of no religion (atheism).

          • Crono478

            No, I can not accept any other religions including atheism as equal. You are telling me to accept this now until I can demonstrate that my religion is right one but I cannot do that. I will not compromise my belief.

            I don’t have to do any demonstration or provide evidence to you because you already have seen them yourself. You became an atheist after rejecting Him.

          • Paul Hiett

            “No, sinful behaviors such as homosexuality, adultery, thief, blasphemy, lying and so on will be on rise.”

            How can you possibly suggest that will happen? You don’t think those things are already at an all time high already? Christians have a 50% or higher divorce rate…50%!!!!!! Half of your marriages are failing, and you blame atheists?

            Please…Christians have no room to judge others based on what I see on a daily basis in this country.

          • Crono478

            Blame is not really on only atheists but all of us in this world. That shows how sinful we are. This led Jesus to the cross. Yes, I am including myself as well. Why do you think that many “Christians” are abandoning their faith? Even statistics show more people not identifying with any religion now.

            I am one of Millennials. I previously did not believe in God because I did not understand why Christians could be judging us when they had very high divorce rate. Also, they were doing same thing after telling us that this is considered to be sin.

            It’s only 4 years ago when I finally understood the gospel and was sorry for my sins and asked Jesus to save me from my sins. I became a Christian on this very night.

          • Paul Hiett

            And for you, that’s great. It really is. You found something that works for you. Many others take solace in their choice of a religion too…and it works for them. Do you really disrespect their choices for what works simply because it wasn’t your choice?

            Why does your choice of a religion mean that everyone else is wrong? Couldn’t you simply say, “hey, glad you found comfort in your religion, as I found comfort in mind.”

            If belief in your religion gives you this salvation and peace of mind, shouldn’t you be happy for someone else who finds the same thing, even though it’s in a different belief system?

          • Crono478

            Yup, I respect their choices because I can’t make you and anyone else to make this choice. It is really sad for me to know that anyone would not choose Jesus. It is because I know where they will go if they die without being saved.

            Conversely, I will be greatly rejoiced to know that person chooses to forsake their sins and trust in Jesus.

          • Paul Hiett

            Need to correct you…you don’t “know”, you believe. That’s the hurdle that most religious folks can’t get over.

            Imagine you, a Muslim, and a Jew are all in the same room. You all claim to “know” the truth.

            I guarantee you that when you all walk out, you’re all still the same, devoted followers of the same religion you believed in to start.

            Since no one can prove their religion to be “true”, all are equal, and none should be used to tell others how to live. You wouldn’t tolerate living under Muslim or Jewish law, and so no one else should have to live under Christian law.

          • Crono478

            No, I do know because of my faith in Jesus. To have faith is to see what we haven’t seen yet.

            You prefer to use your own eyes to see first before believing. That won’t work. You need to have faith in order to see.

          • Paul Hiett

            So then, the Jew and the Muslim are wrong?

          • Crono478

            Yes, if Jews reject Jesus as their Savior and Messiah which is what they were promised by God. He already came to them two thousand years ago. There are some Jews who are saved through their faith in Him. They are known as Messianic Jews.

            For Muslims, yes to that for same reason as Jews who reject Jesus. What is more, their Islamic belief gives them no assurance if they will make to Heaven no matter what they have to do in their life.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you not understand that they feel the same way about their religion as you do about yours?

          • Crono478

            I am not forcing on them to accept it. I am only here to share the Truth. They can accept it or reject them.

          • Paul Hiett

            And you can accept or reject their truth.

          • Crono478

            But you already reject the Truth I share with you because you are an atheist. Therefore, you can’t tell me if I can accept or reject their truth.

          • Paul Hiett

            But you wouldn’t, would you? You’re 100% convinced of your truth, are you not?

            Are you now saying that maybe you’d be open to conversion?

          • Crono478

            I am absolutely convinced of God’s words. That is why I put faith in Him. Otherwise I would not at all. Because of this, I am not open to any kind of conversion especially when I know the truth.

            For you, I share the Truth with you but you already reject that. I can’t force you to change your mind. It can be only you to make this decision. For this reason, I don’t see any point in continuing this discussion.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            The issue is not what we “feel,” but what the truth is. As I wrote above, the big difference between believing in Christ vs. all the other religions is (a) He did it all vs. us trying to work our way into God’s graces, (b) He was resurrected. The resurrection is the pivotal point for believing all that the Bible says about God and Christ and man.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Crono….you’re not seeing the “full picture” here.
            I’m a Christian.
            But, we must remember that we are “Living in a Secular Society”, which ALLOWS THE “FREEDOM OF RELIGION”…..in other words – “we are all FREE to believe what we want in the U.S.A.”.

            That’s a “good thing” that our Founding Fathers ALLOWED FOR.

            The BIG PART you’re “Missing” is that “YOU ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT SECULAR GOVERNMENT”.

            In “other words”…..DON’T SEND YOUR CHILDREN TO “PUBLIC SCHOOLS”, which are “Furnished By A SECULAR SOCIETY”.

            How in your “right mind” would you expect ANYTHING ELSE from a “Secular Society”, other than “NO RELIGION”?????

            The “Government”, the Secular Society, which you see DECAYING, is doing so “Because They Are Not Fearful Of God”.

            Jesus said…”Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s”.

            The TRUTH IS….you can’t SERVE TWO MASTERS.

            That’s what you’re TRYING TO DO HERE.

            You’re trying to “Convert Caesar”….IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

            We were told this BY JESUS….the “wicked will continue to be wicked, but, those who know their God will standfast in the Day Of Judgement”.

            Crono….the only SOLUTION, is to “Separate Yourself From THEM”, just as God wanted “Israel To SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD “.

            They were “Unique” because of “THEIR IDENTITY”, which God ultimately TOOK AWAY FROM THEM by causing them to go SERVE OTHER GODS IN FOREIGN LANDS.

            Is this NOT TRUE???

            This “battle” is NOT YOURS TO WIN – It belongs to God.

            “I will avenge, sayeth the Lord, it is MINE TO AVENGE”.

            All I can say to you is “KEEP YOUR FAITH”, TEACH IT TO YOUR CHILDREN, NOT TO THE WICKED….PUT YOUR CHILDREN IN “SCHOOLS THAT BELIEVE AS YOU DO”.

            Instead….you are TAKING FROM “CAESAR”, and telling him to “LOVE GOD”.

            It doesn’t work that way Crono…..SURELY YOU KNOW THIS??

            Jesus CALLS YOU OUT from among the WICKED.
            He does not SEND YOU IN to be “Devoured By Them”.

            Let what belongs to God stay with God, and let what belongs to the Wicked stay with the Wicked.

            This is NOT your fight….it belongs to God. And GOD CALLS THOSE WHO ARE “HIS” TO COME TO HIM…- THOSE WITH “EARS HEAR HIS VOICE”……..the rest DO NOT HEAR HIM CALLING.

            Will you “Open Their Ears For Them”???
            Will you “Open Their Eyes For Them???

            That JOB belongs to JESUS….just as He did when He came to Jerusalem……..He HEALED THE DEAF & BLIND.

            Do not presume to be like God who “Opens ears & eyes”.

            They will be called to ACCOUNT for their OWN LIVES.
            Do not worry about WHAT OTHERS DO….keep your EYES ON GOD.

            Please!!!

          • Crono478

            “Crono….the only SOLUTION, is to “Separate Yourself From THEM”, just as God wanted “Israel To SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD “.”

            You are taking this out of context. It does not mean that we should be completely separate from them and ignore them. It means we do not take any part in activities or behaviors that are sinful. We are not to have any fellowship with them when it comes to that. However, at the same time, they need to know that they are sinners who broke God’s Law and deserve His judgment. When they realize that, that’s when we bring them the Good News.

            That brings us to the command that Jesus gave to us.

            Jesus gave us this command:

            Matthew 28:19-20

            19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always,even to the end of the age.” Amen.[b]

            Also, I recommend you to read Books of Acts and see how they have been leading more people to salvation even through that they are either persecuted or lost their lives.

        • Guenther Wolegaz

          “good news is that we are trending in that direction. We’ll get there in our lifetimes.” Soviet Union redux. Wonderful, I can’t wait.

  • Gary

    Redefining terms so that they mean what the individual wants them to mean is a common practice now. It is another example of the destruction of this society.

  • Michael Oberhausen

    It is appointed once for man to die, than judgement! It’s inevitable that one day you are gonna die Atheist people! The. What? If we Christians are wrong about JESUS your in the clear! If we’re Right the. You should be very worried to fall into the hands of an angry God!

    • Paul Hiett

      Actually, you’re looking at it from a very narrow minded perspective. Just because you’re wrong doesn’t make atheism right, or vice versa. Christianity can still be wrong, along with atheism, if another religion is true, such as Islam. Or Hindu, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, etc.

      Truth is, the odds of any religion being right are all so infinitesimally small that it’s really not worth stressing over.

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        Yah, you’re right: every manmade religion is a waste of time, here and in eternity. But putting one’s trust in the Son of God, the One who’s referred to as The Genuine One, that’s worth pondering and doing. Jesus isn’t religion: He’s LIFE itself.

  • J Stewart

    He looks like a person who tries to eat soup with a fork to show he’s different, for some reason, and likes to keep a pair of pom-poms under his bed.

  • Trevor Thomas

    Not only is he “not a Christian,” but according to Scripture, he’s a “fool.” This is no surprise coming from a “minister” in the PCUSA. With its compromise on everything from life to marriage, why not have a “pastor” who doesn’t believe in God? http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com

  • FoJC_Forever

    John Shuck is just another one of the insignificant minions of Satan who professes to be Christian.

    • Paul Hiett

      A minion of Satan? Do you even listen to yourself when you speak like this?

      • FoJC_Forever

        Yes.

  • Alex Masters

    It’s elementary! Christian = follower of Jesus Christ = the Son of God = God.

  • TheMatrixHasU

    Freaking oxymoron…..you don’t believe in God and maybe not Jesus either then you cant call yourself Christian. DUHHHH

  • e rad

    ‘proclaiming God yet denying His power’ words of the new testament coming to life!

  • pfehrman

    I guess this is his 15 minutes of fame…but in the most shameful way possible. Everyone has to account for what they do and say on judgment day. He will definitely be cast out, that’s for sure. Matthew 10:32“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

  • @HawaiianTater

    Not even Christians who believe in God as a supernatural entity can agree on the details. That’s why there are over 40,000 different denominations of Christianity. Hilariously enough, they all think their way is the only one true way, so it is entirely unsurprising that many Christians would get their hate on for Shuck because of his different views on Christianity. The Pope himself has come out and declared that he believes atheists will get into Heaven if they lead good, moral lives.

    Francis wrote: “You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience. Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

    And that’s from the freakin’ Pope; leader of the largest of all the Christian denominations.

    The point is, what matters most is how you live your life. How you worship, what you think the exact details may or may not be, is entirely irrelevant to living a good, moral life. A jungle tribe on an island in the South Pacific may have never even heard of Christ and Christianity. If there is a God, he’s not going to automatically send every one of them to Hell. No, God would let the good ones into Heaven and send the evil ones to Hell.

    That same logic applies to everyone else on this planet. There are billions of people in all cultures around the world and the vast majority of them are indoctrinated into their local belief systems. An omnipotent God would understand this and be more than capable of deciding who has good in their hearts and who the evil ones are. For most of the people on this planet, the specifics of their beliefs come from what they were raised to believe. How they choose to live their lives as adults is what God will be judging them by.

    Just remember, Jesus said to love thy neighbor. If there really is a God out there and you’re using your religion to justify hate and bigotry, He’ll be judging you too. If that’s the case, I don’t like your chances.

    • Paul Hiett

      You sir, are a breath of fresh air.

      • @HawaiianTater

        Thank you, kind sir.

        • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

          More like a FART than fresh air…LOL

    • Gary

      What you believe contradicts the Bible.

      • Paul Hiett

        There’s also about 4199 other religions that contradict your choice of a religion as well. Not exactly worth worrying about.

        • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

          Ummm… Paul. It’s not what one chooses as their religion that is the issue; but rather, in Whom one chooses to rest their hopes for eternal life. Thus, being a “Christian” means you identify, in hope, with the Person of God, Jesus Christ. This “minister” has chosen to reject Jesus Christ as God but desires to be still called a “Christian.” Won’t happen.

          • Paul Hiett

            Actually, most people don’t choose their religion…their parents do. Around the world, religion is a localized idea; you’re born to Muslim parents? You’re a Muslim. Born in Israel, you’re probably a Jew. Most people never question their religion because it was indoctrinated into them at birth.

            However, that doesn’t mean that they don’t believe in their religion just as much as you believe in yours. I know it’s hard to understand, but try and think about how devoted you are to your religion, and how sure you are that you’re “right”…and then try to understand that the worshipers of those other religions believe just as firmly as you do in yours.

          • Abderian Agelast

            This makes a lot of sense…however, there is one thing that troubles me. The theory of Evolution (macroevolution, not microevolution) is taught as fact in public schools. It is taught as early as grade school. My question is this: How is teaching a child that people evolved from the same animal species as monkeys and horses did any different from teaching them that a God or multiple gods created humans? I mean, no matter which way you fall, it requires at least a little bit of faith to mean it when you say “There is no God” or “There is only one God” or “There is a pantheon of gods”. Why can atheists denounce Christians and other religious people for indoctrinating their children in their religions and then turn around and indoctrinate their children in the belief in the theory of Evolution? I know that the word “belief” is not what an atheist would use when talking about evolution, but I cannot find a better word for it.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            And by the same token, one could say that most atheists/secularists never question their set of beliefs bec. they were indoctrinated into them at birth. {rolling eyes}

            This kind of pablum gets us nowhere; it’s not to the point. The point is: who is Jesus? Is He just a “good man”? Nope, because a mere “good man” would not claim to be God or accept worship. *IF* He is who He and the Bible claim Him to be, then it behooves ALL of us to heed His message and align ourselves with Him and His truth.

      • @HawaiianTater

        What Christians believe the Bible says contradicts each other. Hell, even the Bible itself contradicts itself quite a lot. It’s very telling that not even the ones who believe in God can agree on what the Bible says.

        • Paul Hiett

          42,000+ denominations and counting…

          • @HawaiianTater

            I love it when Christians think they know the Bible and we don’t. Schooling them on what their book actually says is good fun.

        • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

          What God declares has no contradictions. How a man chooses to view it is where the contradictions lie. For those on the outside (including you); to say the bible is full of contradictions; is akin to a car mechanic declaring heart surgeons don’t know what they’re doing. Stick to what you know… and leave the bible to those who know it better.

          • @HawaiianTater

            The Bible is FULL of contradictions. You don’t even have to go beyond the first few chapters to find contradictions LOL

            In the first creation story, humans are created after the other animals.

            And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and
            cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth
            upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God
            said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
            and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl
            of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,
            and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God
            created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;
            male and female created he them. Genesis 1:25-27

            In the second story, humans were created before the other animals.

            And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for
            him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;
            and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living
            creature, that was the name thereof. Genesis 2:18-19

          • Gary

            There is only one creation story. You have misunderstood.

          • @HawaiianTater

            I haven’t misunderstood anything. Read the bible. I have. If you know your bible as well as you say you do, you’d know there is not one, not two, but THREE creation stories in it.

            The bible is man-made fiction by a bunch of goat herders who thought the Earth is flat and is the center of the Universe. The only people misunderstanding anything here is Christians who can’t seem to grasp reality. Which, quite frankly, I don’t particularly care about. Believe whatever you want to believe as long as it makes you happy. The only Christians (or those of any other faith) that I have a problem with are the ones who use their ancient myths to justify bigotry and hate and to otherwise harm society.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            “Which, quite frankly, I don’t particularly care about.” Then why are you reading this article or replying to the comments?

            “as long as it makes you happy.” See, this is the problem with the “modern” mind: everything’s seen in emotional terms. Has it occurred to you that perhaps a lot of us came to the conclusion that Jesus is God and the Messiah after a lot of thinking, pondering and analyzing? And believe me, it does NOT make me happy to think that (a) Jesus had to go thru all that agony because of our sin, and (b) that there are people who’ll land forever in hell because they refused to be reconciled to God on His terms, thru His Son.

          • @HawaiianTater

            *facepalm* What I DON’T care about is what your delusions are. If they don’t make you happy, then that just sucks. I pity you for having to suffer because of your delusions. Just because you’ve spent a lot of time thinking, pondering and analyzing doesn’t make you any less delusional. In fact, it makes you more so, because you came to that conclusion even after putting considerable thought into it.

            What I DO care about is your ancient myths causing pain, bigotry, suffering and the overall harming of society because of your lacking in the ability to grasp reality. If you want to suffer because you think the magic man in the sky sent his son who was really him to die (but not really because he’s immortal) because of the imaginary sins your imaginary man gave you in the first place, then that’s your own prerogative; just stop letting your special brand of crazy harm the rest of us who have more sense.

          • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

            Genesis Chapters One is a general overview of God’s creation order. Chapter Two expands on the roll God designed mankind to play more specifically in that same creation account. Next?

          • @HawaiianTater

            The Bible is the perfect word of God! How dare you think you know when He is giving a general overview and when He is expanding on His roll. For shame. For shame!

          • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

            Simple. I know the Author if the Bible on a first name basis… as do ALL whom are born of the Spirit. 🙂

          • @HawaiianTater

            Haha. You must’ve missed the part where the Bible is a bunch of different books written by a bunch of different guys then all cobbled together. But that’s okay. I won’t hold your delusion against you.

    • Abderian Agelast

      Attempting to understand the Bible is sort of like discussing a book in an English class: Sure, you can get the general idea from just reading it, but when it comes to more specific meanings and allegories and symbolism, people will view things in different ways. There is certainly one correct way of interpreting the Bible, just as there is typically only one way of interpreting some other literary work. This is why there are so many denominations. A good example would be with the idea of Predestination. Some denominations in Christianity believe that the Bible teaches that only God can cause someone to accept Christ as their savior, effectively making Him the person that chooses who will and will not be saved. Other denominations believe that it is up to the person to choose Christ as their savior or not. The ARP denomination in particular (since that’s the one I’m most familiar with) believes that to say that a person can choose whether or not to accept Christ as their savior takes the ultimate power of salvation out of the hands of God and puts it into the hands of the sinner. Other people will interpret the two views in different ways. We all have unique perspectives on everything, and we can’t avoid that.

      As a Protestant, I don’t believe everything the Pope says. In fact, I believe that a few of the things that he’s saying now, such as the “works can save you” thing you recently mentioned, are unbiblical. Ephesians 2:8-9 says this:

      “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

      I think that Paul is rather clear about the fact that your works cannot save you. But perhaps this isn’t convincing enough. After all, this is just one passage that refutes the claim. I can understand how that might not be enough to convince you that the Pope’s declaration is unbiblical. However, there are a few more verses we can look at. For example, Ecclesiastes 7:20 says this:

      “Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.”

      What is this verse saying? To put it simply, there is not a single person who is perfect in the eyes of the Lord. Paul quotes this verse among others in Romans 3. Later on, in Romans 3:20, he says this:

      “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

      As the verse says, the law (referring to the Ten Commandments) can’t save anyone, since by their existence they condemn each and every person to an eternity apart from God. We know this because later, in Romans 6:23, he says this:

      “For the wages of sin is death.”

      Death. Eternal separation from God. This is the punishment for all sin, whether we would view that sin as large or small. This means that not a single person is worthy to be saved, not a single person can earn their way into Heaven, and not a single person can even begin to try.

      Anyway, the most interesting part of your argument is what follows the portion about Pope Francis. You believe that, assuming that there is a God, He wouldn’t send people who hadn’t ever heard of him to Hell just because they had no knowledge. You then, in your post, went on to describe how an omnipotent God would be able to discern the good from the bad and let the good into Heaven. However, we have already seen that there isn’t a single person that can be considered “good” in the eyes of God. However, there are other ways to look at this. Let’s start with the tribe of people in the South Pacific. You claim that they haven’t ever heard the gospel, and therefore cannot be saved. However, they don’t need to hear the gospel in order to know that there is a God. Psalm 19 tells us that “the heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.” In Luke 19, Jesus tells us that if the disciples were to stop proclaiming the name of God that even “the very stones would cry out.” The Bible is telling us that the handiwork of God is evidenced in the entirety of creation. In this case, one or two of the islanders could believe in the God that created the world and not have read the Bible. After all, people were brought up into Heaven before the Bible was finished, whether their faith was counted as righteousness or they were literally carried up into heaven. Who’s to say that you need to have the Bible in order to believe? That being said, having the Bible offers a huge advantage, since you gain knowledge of the nature of God, among other things.

      I think that now would be a good time to look at Predestination. Think of salvation like this: We, as human beings, are utterly sinful. We are standing in a room with a door that leads to death. Because we are sinful, we can only see this door. However, there is another door. This door leads to eternal life. Unfortunately, sinful man cannot see this door. Sinful man cannot enter this door even if he could see it. God was aware of this before it even happened. He knew that everyone would be condemned. He describes himself as a just God, and an omniscient, omnipotent power of justice would not be able to let even the slightest transgression slip past him. All sin must be punished with death. This is the just thing to do. However, God is not simply a God of justice. If he were, then the Christians would have no hope. Rather, He is also a God of mercy. He looks at us in our pitiful state and decides to spare us from our fate. However, He cannot simply ignore the sin, for He is a just God. He must provide a way for someone else to take the place of us and die for our sins. So He sent Jesus down, fully God and fully man, to live a perfect life, one that anyone apart from God would be physically incapable of living. He then died in our place so that our sins would be forgiven. With this, God sets up a present of sorts for us to open, and the gift is eternal life in Heaven. But the thing is, in our sinful state, we can’t even see this gift. We just keep on sinning because we cannot do anything else. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in. It is through His power that we are able to accept the gift of salvation from God the Father. Of course, since the Spirit and the Father and the Son are all God, this means that God essentially chooses who will and who won’t be saved. The idea of Predestination is not an easy one, partially because it does not easily allow for an age of accountability. It also means that many people are fated to be separated forever and just don’t realize it. However, it does give God all of the power in salvation, removing all of our pride from being saved. This topic was once explained to me as follows: We should not ask ourselves “Why doesn’t God save everyone?”, but rather “Why did God save anyone?”. By saving only some, God reemphasizes the fact that He is the one that is in control. We ought to appreciate the gift of salvation even more knowing that God, for reasons we cannot understand, chose to save us at all.

      To put it simply, most of your argument uses this idea of a god that is not the God described in the Bible. However, I do agree with your sentiment at the end. Christians are not called to be full of hate and bigotry. While Christians are by no means perfect, the power of the Holy Spirit working within them is slowly sanctifying them, making them able to resist the devil and temptations and choose the right path.

      • @HawaiianTater

        TL;DR. I’m not reading your essay. But, just to reply to your opening, if the Bible was “the perfect word of God”, it would be extremely clear. It would not have tens of thousands of different interpretations and it wouldn’t be full of contradictions.

        • Abderian Agelast

          First, don’t you think that’s a little unfair? I took the time out of my day to read what you had written and attempt to respectfully provide a counterargument, or at least another perspective, to said argument. It may not have come across as respectful, but it’s hard to do so in a medium where everything is taken in the worst context possible. Anyway, you couldn’t have taken 5 or so minutes to read what I had replied? I know I wrote a lot, but it was also spaced out a lot.

          As to the interpretations issue, well, just because we interpret the Bible differently doesn’t necessarily mean it’s imperfect. It could just as easily reflect that the people interpreting the Bible are imperfect. To try and fit this in an analogy, two broken mirrors will reflect the same person in two different ways. This doesn’t mean that the person being reflected is ugly, it just means that the mirrors are broken.

          I think that when you say “full of contradictions,” you are making an overstatement. I’d like to see some of these contradictions though, to see what I can make of them. On a similar note, the Theory of Evolution has its own share of contradictions. One that I think of from time to time is this: If the Law of Conservation of Mass is true, then how could the universe have started spontaneously? I’m not entirely sure, but I think I recall that the Big Bang theory has lost support over recent years. What’s the new prevailing theory?

          • @HawaiianTater

            See, the problem with debating a “true believer” is that no amount of facts will sway their position. In my experience, the stronger a person’s belief in a myth, the more they’ll just dig their heels in and not accept the evidence. Maybe it was a little unfair to not bother reading through your very lengthy reply but quite frankly, it’s all stuff I’ve heard before and I don’t really see the point in going through all of it. I can already tell that you truly believe all this mythical stuff is real, so I’d be wasting the time of both of us trying to debate it with you.

            If you’re interested in reading about more bible contradictions, here’s a link. http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm It was just the first one I came across. There are many others. Google search is your friend.

            Also, I don’t know where you’re getting your news but I follow a lot of the science-y stuff and I’ve not come across any real scientists who have lost support for the Big Bang Theory. Nor have I come across any real scientists who are unsure about evolution. Just in case you were wondering, because I know a lot of Christians don’t understand the word theory when it comes to science, scientific theory is an explanation of the facts. It’s not a hunch or a guess or a shot in the dark. Evolutionary theory is no more a guess than gravitational theory or cell theory. In this context, the use of the word theory is the method of explaining how it all works.

            Science explains the how. It doesn’t try to explain the why. There was a time when the church would kill and jail scientists for even suggesting the Earth is not the center of the universe. Now, it is commonly accepted knowledge. Evolution is the same. It’s been proven for a long time now. Not all theists accept it yet though. If you want to believe that there is a God out there who controls evolution, that’s fine. It can’t be proven one way or the other. However, it is downright delusional stupidity to not accept proven scientific facts. Not accepting evolution as reality is dumb on a level of thinking the Earth is flat and is at the center of the universe; something Christianity also used to believe in.

          • Abderian Agelast

            I think that you’re right about the debate being pointless, since my opinion and your opinion aren’t likely to sway any time soon. Even if I were the type of person that did extensive research on the subject (which clearly I’m not), I don’t think either of us would budge. On a somewhat related note, I appreciate the thought behind explaining “theory” in a scientific sense, but I was already aware of that definition. I could argue that we haven’t actually found any intermediate fossil stages between species, or that natural selection can work for a particular species one day and then against that same species when slight changes to the environment are made, or even that macroevolution can’t really be tested for, but there’s two reasons why I shouldn’t: It will get us absolutely nowhere, and I simply don’t know a lot about either of them. Now, if we can consider this a discussion instead of a debate, I think that would be more beneficial.

            I’ve noticed that you use the Beast and Fowl contradiction a lot. I decided to look into that myself a little bit. What I’ve seen so far is that the ESV Bible says something to the effect of “…the Lord God had formed every beast…,” suggesting that it had already been done. The NIV makes it even more clear that the creation of the animals had happened before the creation of the man. I’m not sure if you haven’t looked at the passages in different versions of the Bible yet or if you’ve already come up with a rebuttal for when people point that out, but I thought that it was of interest either way.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Yes, you could argue that there are no transitional fossils. You’d be wrong though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils I would never sit here and say with 100% certainty that no God exists because quite frankly, it’s impossible to prove. What can be proven is the method of how evolution works. Evolution is a fact. Evolution is reality. It’s possible that there is a God that designed evolution. That’s something I will not dispute, even though I don’t think it really matters because it can’t be proven.

            You would also do very well to read this article about the bible. http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/02/thats-not-what-bible-says-294018.html It is a very informative history of the bible. A lot of people would be surprised to know that some of the most well known passages in the bible were not in the original versions but added later by translators.

            I’m not trying to sway your opinion. What I AM trying to do is give you a more informed opinion. All I can do is provide you with information and let you decide for yourself.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I think that BOTH of you made your points very well, and, also in a “polite manner”, which is very rare around these comment sections.

            Ironically, I can see BOTH sides. What surprises me most is that “YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT”, whether you know it, or not.

            On one side; “Evolution” cannot be denied. In fact, it is still happening with the “extinction” of certain species, which will no doubt give rise to “newer species”…..after all, that’s exactly what happened to the Dinosaurs. Once they were GONE, then “Mammals” took their place.

            Would I sound “weird” to you if I said “I believe in BOTH”??

            According to the Book Of Genesis, the “Creation Took Six Days”, and then God “rested” on the Seventh Day.

            Now we see “Elsewhere” in the Bible that “TO GOD A DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS ARE LIKE A DAY”.

            That’s written TWICE by “David” in the PSALMS, and by “Peter” in his 2nd BOOK as follows….

            Psalm 90:4
            A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

            2 Peter 3:8
            But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

            ——————————————-

            Based on these TWO scriptures, you are BOTH RIGHT.

            Christians would be DELUSIONAL to believe it was “All Done In 6 Days”, just as the Psalm says, and just as Peter said.
            They would be just as Delusional, then, to believe it was even done in “6,000 Years”.

            Why?

            Because we have the “Physical Proof” that Life existed long before 10,000 years ago…..that’s why.

            So again I say – “YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT”.

            Now all you need to do is “Put Both Theories Together”, and you will see the “Miracle” that God has made, which has been in “Full View” this entire time.

            Thanks for a good debate guys!!!!!

          • @HawaiianTater

            Good reply. What’s your take on people literally believing in Noah’s flood, dinosaurs living at the same time as man and dinosaurs being on Noah’s ark?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Honestly HT….the answer is “I just don’t know”.
            Do I find it hard to believe? Absolutely.

            I see things a lot the way YOU DO inside the Bible.
            There are plenty of things that make no sense at all…..Noah’s Ark is one of them.

            But, this also goes with what you said about “Man’s Interpretations”, as well as “Different Writers”…….there are way too many of them COMPLIED into a “Bible” – by MEN.

            I can’t argue with that at all, because IT’S TRUE.

            I know it’s true…because I’ve spent 40 years PROVING JUST THAT.

            The answer is the same as what you said earlier…..”NO ONE CAN PROVE WHY THINGS ARE”….all they can do is PROVE HOW THEY WORK.

            That’s a good analogy.

            Yet, in between all the “Smoke & Mirrors” I do find plenty of TRUTH.

            The best TRUTH I can use is the “Prophecies”.

            It’s almost like gong to the RACE TRACK with a Friend, and this Friend PICKS ALL 8 RACES CORRECTLY……

            Then He tells you the RESULTS OF THE LAST RACE.

            That’s when you have to “question”……IS HE RIGHT?

            The only AVAILABLE ANSWER IS – “HE CORRECTLY PREDICTED THE FIRST 8 RACES”…..”I WOULD BE FOOLISH NOT TO BELIEVE HIM IN THE LAST RACE”.

            That’s my little “Moment Of Clarity”……..I CHOOSE TO “TRUST HIM”.
            And why not?…..HE’S BEEN RIGHT SO FAR!!

            That’s what defines “My Faith”……I’ve seen all the other “Prophecies Fulfilled”……I’d be foolish not to believe the FINAL PROPHECY, right?

            It’s a hard pill to swallow….but, WOULD I BET “AGAINST MY FRIEND”?
            That would be STACKING THE ODDS AGAINST MYSELF, right?

            The SAFEST CHOICE would be to “Believe My Friend”, as HE HASN’T LET ME DOWN YET.

            Does any of that makes sense to you?

          • @HawaiianTater

            Like evolution, the myth of a worldwide flood IS something we know. It never happened. Just to cite a quick example: kangaroos. If there was a Noah’s ark and there was a worldwide flood, there would be kangaroo fossils all the way from the Middle East to Australia. There’s not. That’s just the first example of tens of thousands that prove the Noah’s flood myth never happened. Man and dinosaurs living at the same time also never happened. These are scientific facts that we know to be true.

            My point is, taking the stores of the OT in a literal fashion is foolish at best, delusional at worst. These books were written by people who thought the Earth was flat and at the center of the Universe. There was a time when the church imprisoned and murdered scientists for figuring out the Earth orbits the Sun. Yeah, that happened. Now, even the church has accepted it as common knowledge. Evolution is the same thing as the Earth orbiting the Sun. Just because we’ve figured it out, doesn’t mean everyone has accepted it yet. That same logic applies to myths like Noah’s flood. There are lot of OT myths that have been absolutely, 100% disproven by science. It’s just going take a while for the religious people in the world to accept that.

            Yes, science knows how things works. It doesn’t care why; only how.

            As for the 2nd half of your reply… sorry, I fail to see your point about prophecies.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Okay…..to answer you.
            I agree with everything you said about “Evolution”……I believe in it, and certainly NOT DISPUTING IT, as it is the TRUTH.

            So, in a sense…you’re preaching to the choir when talking to me about it.
            I believe in the Dinosaurs too…..I’m NOT questioning anything you’ve said.

            I’m simply ADDING TO IT.

            I’m sorry you don’t see the comparison of “Predicting The Future” in what I said……but, that’s what the “Prophecies Are” – PREDICTIONS OF THE FUTURE.

            In my analogy…I clearly told you that “I’ve seen them FULFILLED”.

            So again, I would be foolish NOT TO BELIEVE THE FINAL PROPHECY, especially after SEEING THE OTHERS FULFILLED.

            That’s what is written in the Bible….it’s DIFFERENT PEOPLE SAYING VIRTUALLY THE “SAME THINGS”.

            That’s what makes it “unique”.

            If you spent time “ANALYZING THE PROPHECIES”, rather then ARGUING “OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE”, which do seem like “Fairy Tales”, then you would’ve found this AMAZING THING TOO….just like me.

            I IGNORE THE BS….But, I see the TRUE PARTS.

            I can “WALK & CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME”.

          • @HawaiianTater

            What prophecies have you seen fulfilled?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Don’t waste my time with that BS question….there’s an ENTIRE BIBLE TO WRITE, and I’m not about to REWRITE IT FOR YOU.

          • @HawaiianTater

            It’s not a BS question. I know of no legit fulfilled prophecies. If you have evidence of them, present it.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            GO READ A BIBLE….that’s my evidence.

            It’s NOT ENOUGH for you that I said “I AGREE WITH YOU”??

            Man, you are a bit DENSE, eh?

          • @HawaiianTater

            Just a reminder, I thought you were happy about having discussions in a polite manner. I’m not interested in resorting to insults.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You are insulting ME by asking for me to WRITE THE “MONROE DOCTRINE”, just so you can say “BS’???

            I told you I’m ADDING TO WHAT YOU SAID, NOT TAKING AWAY.

            Sorry I tried to talk with someone that is UNREASONABLE, and wants me to WASTE MY TIME, just so you can say “I DON’T BELIEVE IT”.

            Try that on someone more GULLIBLE, okay?

            It’s TOUGH GIVING YOU A COMPLIMENT….that’s kind of sad by itself.

          • @HawaiianTater

            I really don’t understand why you’re getting upset here. You said there were prophecies that had been fulfilled. I asked what prophecies you were talking about. I don’t claim to know everything. I’m listening to what you have to say. I am open to learning new things. If you think there are prophecies that have been fulfilled, state your case. Show your evidence. I’m listening.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You know all the EVIDENCE…you’ve already READ IT, AND REJECTED IT.

            What good would it do to READ IT TO YOU AGAIN???

            None that I can think of.

            Have a nice day.

          • @HawaiianTater

            You claim that prophecies have been fulfilled but you refuse to state even one that has been fulfilled. How am I supposed to even respond to them when I have no idea what prophecies you’re talking about?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You’re the one CLAIMING THE BIBLE IS BS.
            You’re the one CLAIMING TO BE THE EXPERT.

            I have to assume you’ve at least TAKEN THE TIME TO READ THE BIBLE, otherwise, what right do you have to “DISPUTE IT”???

            Try again.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Prove me wrong. State ONE SINGLE PROPHECY that has been fulfilled.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I’ve already PROVED YOU “RIGHT”.

            Like I said…”DENSE”.

          • @HawaiianTater

            You have no clue how this works. When you make a claim, you provide evidence to back up your claims. All you’re doing is making claims. You’ve got NOTHING to back up your claims.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Last word person I see…..LOL.

            Have a nice day, tearing people’s hopes down.

          • @HawaiianTater

            If I told you leprechauns exist, you’d ask me to prove it to you. You’re claiming prophecies have been fulfilled, so prove it to me. I’m kinda big on this whole evidence thing. You accept the reality of evolution because of the facts. You also claim to have facts for prophecies being fulfilled, so SHOW THE FACTS. It’s that simple. If you’re right, the facts will back you up.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Bye…dense person.

            You’ve already LOST THIS ARGUMENT before it began.

            I’m NOT HERE FOR YOUR PLEASURE.

            I gave you a compliment…..try to take it GRACEFULLY.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Why is it so impossible for you to state JUST ONE SINGLE PROPHECY that has been fulfilled? ANY one. Just one. I’ll take one. ONE. SINGLE. PROPHECY.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Okay…I have a “question for you”….

            “How do you keep an idiot in suspense”???

          • @HawaiianTater

            I’ll tell you why you won’t provide examples. It’s because you are full of crap. You know prophecies aren’t real. You know you have no facts to back up your claims. That’s why you won’t provide any examples. Because you know I’ll make you look like the blithering delusional idiot that you are. Stop embarrassing yourself.

            Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have NOTHING. You have no facts. You have no evidence. All you have is your delusion. IF you have any kind of truth whatsoever to your claims, you’d have already stated them. Since you don’t have any proof, you have to resort to insults. What you don’t realize is that you are only continuing to make yourself like the fool that you are.

            You’ve said “bye” three times now. So let me show you how it’s done. Enjoy your delusions. Keep living in your fictional “prophecy fulfilled” fantasy land. Maybe someday you’ll wise up and learn how to have a discussion like an adult instead of a child who still believes in the tooth fairy. Judging by your lack of mental capacity here, I somehow doubt it.

            Grow up.

            *drops mic*

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            ATTTT….WRONG ANSWER.

            Tell him what he’s won Don……

            “I’ll tell you later”.

            (DROPS ANVIL)

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S…..hey numbskull….WHY DO YOU THINK THEY CALL IT “FAITH”?
            Because it’s accepted WITHOUT FACTS….idiot.

            I was gonna answer the “idiot question with” this – TELL HIM A PROPHECY….THAT’LL KEEP HIM BUSY FOR AWHILE.

            But, I chose the “traditional answer instead”.

            No one can CAN PROVE FAITH @SSWIPE….either you have it, or you don’t.

            It’s certainly CLEAR TO ME that you don’t.
            Yet, you still BELIEVE that the “Sun Will Always Rise” – WHY??
            You don’t KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT WILL RISE – DO YOU?

            You just know it by FAITH.

            This is WAY OVER YOUR CLOSED LITTLE MIND.

            You can’t insult me with your blubbering garbage…IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH “FAITH” – YOU IDIOT!!!!

            Stay the way you are…I have NO PROBLEM with that either.

            LOL.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            How THIS WORKS is…”i make a comment, or, I don’t make a comment”.

            I’M NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR “DICTATORSHIP”.

          • @HawaiianTater

            Oh and BTW, lay off the caps lock. It’s annoying.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I think that BOTH of you made your points very well, and, also in a “polite manner”, which is very rare around these comment sections.

            Ironically, I can see BOTH sides. What surprises me most is that “YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT”, whether you know it, or not.

            On one side; “Evolution” cannot be denied. In fact, it is still happening with the “extinction” of certain species, which will no doubt give rise to “newer species”…..after all, that’s exactly what happened to the Dinosaurs. Once they were GONE, then “Mammals” took their place.

            Would I sound “weird” to you if I said “I believe in BOTH”??

            According to the Book Of Genesis, the “Creation Took Six Days”, and then God “rested” on the Seventh Day.

            Now we see “Elsewhere” in the Bible that “TO GOD A DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS ARE LIKE A DAY”.

            That’s written TWICE by “David” in the PSALMS, and by “Peter” in his 2nd BOOK as follows….

            Psalm 90:4
            A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

            2 Peter 3:8
            But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

            ——————————————-

            Based on these TWO scriptures, you are BOTH RIGHT.

            Christians would be DELUSIONAL to believe it was “All Done In 6 Days”, just as the Psalm says, and just as Peter said.
            They would be just as Delusional, then, to believe it was even done in “6,000 Years”.

            Why?

            Because we have the “Physical Proof” that Life existed long before 10,000 years ago…..that’s why.

            So again I say – “YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT”.

            Now all you need to do is “Put Both Theories Together”, and you will see the “Miracle” that God has made, which has been in “Full View” this entire time.

            Thanks for a good debate guys!!

    • http://codybateman.org/ ★ Wm. Bateman | Micah 6:8 ★

      The Pope does not nor has ever represented the Son of God, Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Good News!

      Second. God never created even one denomination. Those are the inventions of men. God has, however, defined what is the only religion that He accepts – that being an act of service: “To take care of the widowed and the orphaned in their need and to keep yourselves from being spotted by the things of this world.” (James 1:27)

      Third. You misquote what God actually said: “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)

      Fourth: If you are a true atheist; why do you even bother trying to “teach” the very scriptures that you do not believe? It seems that you are less offended by Christians and more offended by God Himself. For He declares that He is the ONLY Way, the ONLY Truth and the ONLY Life – and that NO ONE will see the Father but through Him. (John 14:6) You’re are offended by the whole idea that YOU are accountable to God… and you don’t want to be.

      FIFTH: There are no true “atheist.” per se. For, in order for you to have come to a conclusion that there is no God; you would have had to transcend every aspect of the universe (time, space and dimension) in order to determine by careful search – that no God exist. In short, you would have had to possess supernatural powers of God in order to “logically” determine there is no God. This, my friend, says that you are not actually an atheist but rather… a god.

      Why don’t you stop your foolish fighting Jesus Christ at every turn – and instead, RUN to His mercy seat. He loves you and has proven it by paying for your unbelief on the cross. He did not come to condemn you friend. He came to save you from His judgement to come! HE LOVES YOU!

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      What did Jesus mean, then, when He said He came as a ransom for many? And what does it mean when the Word says, “There is none righteous, no not one.” And again, “Our righteousnesses are as filthy menstrual rags”?

  • upload

    PUSA has gone off the deep end from denomination to cult.

  • Linda_LaScola

    There are many Christian ministers with beliefs similar to Shuck’s. Hear more about them here:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rationaldoubt/2015/03/minister-announces-on-internet-what-many-ministers-secretly-believe/

  • Regina Forbes

    a·the·ism
    noun
    noun: atheism
    disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    I guess that guy’s never cracked open a dictionary before! Seriously, if he wants to be an athiest, go right ahead! Nobody’s stopping you (pun intended for our atheist friends out there)…but for the love of CHRIST- if you don’t believe, then don’t call yourself a Christian! (pun intended for our Christian friends out there)

    • Gary

      Being a pcusa “pastor” probably pays pretty well. Some good benefits. Probably not a bad “job”. I expect that is one of the reasons he wants to do what he is doing.

      • Regina Forbes

        Yeah, and when he goes to jail for impropriety or embezzlement, you just know scoffers are going to point and say “see! that’s what ALL Christians do!!”

  • rdbyrne

    Actually this guy DOES appreciate it when told he is not a Christian. He simply doesn’t like it. (He is still not a Christian.)

  • Steve H

    Not really worried about what he appreciates.

  • Eli Hernandez

    “Belief-less Christianity”? As brother Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries in Jackson, N.J. stated, not possible.

    John 3:16-21 (NIV)
    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”

    John Shuck is the classic False Apostles masquerading as Apostles of Christ, but they serve Satan and his kingdom, which is the Only enemy of Christ. Paul desccribed these charlatans correctly in his 2nd letter to Corinth 11:13-15, which states: “For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.”

    This guy fools noone especially God (Psalm 14:1) and he is well on his way to commiting unpardonable sin and meritting the second death and eternal damnation. May God save his soul and prevent him from continuing to Blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

    Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.”

  • foreverinchrist

    He’s just a minister of satan thinking that he belongs to God. (Mt.7:15-23).

  • Aaron Thomas Haskins

    No sir, you are not Christian, and Jesus will say to you. “Depart from me you who practice Lawlessness.” On another NOTE: This is why I left my Presbyterian Church, when the scriptures become idealism apostate nonsense, When the scripture ceases to be actual, it’s reduced to fairytale and fantasy. This is the Gnostic Manichean disease legacy within the Presbyterian and Reformed traditions, making the scripture limp and flimsy to the actual saving power it has.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Whoa, there, Aaron. Careful with those generalizations. There are plenty of Presbies (like O.P. and Free Pres, and PCA) who don’t in any way endorse the likes of this guy. Recall that Israel (in the O.T.) kept going apostate over and over, and those were *God’s Elect People.* It’s the apostate Presbies (just like the apostate Episcos, Methos, etc.) who’re afflicted with the disease.

  • Toni Foster

    What an imbecile…..even satan believes and he trembles. He is arrogant and on his way to hell…but why take others with you? {{“The concept of ‘God’ is a product of myth-making and ‘God’ is no longer credible as a personal, supernatural being,” he wrote in a blog post on his site “Shuck and Jive.” “Jesus may have been historical, but most of the stories about Him in the Bible and elsewhere are legends.”}} Wow…..he is denying that first of all God is no longer God. He denies God’s deity and the fact that His Son, Jesus Christ was just a historical figure. Satan already admits to God that he walks the earth seeking someone to devour…I think he has found his man.

  • Matthew

    I’ve followed Shuck’s career with interest for some time now. He puts out a podcast, Religion For Life, that is critical of religion in nature, but is an interesting listen nonetheless. Shuck’s son died a few years back, and while he was always on the liberal side of Christianity, it seems that he lost his faith in God in the aftermath of that tragedy. That’s not an excuse for allowing someone who doesn’t even believe in God in a pulpit, but it’s interesting to track how his lack of faith came to be.

    • Marvels of life

      Often times tragedy does cause one to question their faith, even deny it sometimes. I have found though that through life experiences, once the tragedy unfolds and healing takes place, for some it becomes inspiration for good. For some it becomes a lost soul in need of love and support. That in and of itself can foster someone’s ability to come back to their faith. That is why the message of Christ and his love is so powerful. It transcends all things. Thanks for your comment.

  • Toni Foster

    …..I find it ironic that atheist’s hate that we have a church to go to and a God to believe in and yet, it isn’t enough …now they want to be in the church calling the shots and they want to tell us what to believe. If they don’t believe in God why get involved?

    • Paul Hiett

      Sorry to burst your bubble there, Toni, but we don’t hate anything. We simply don’t believe. We don’t care about your churches, or that you continue to believe in your parents choice of a deity. We simply don’t want you telling us how to live, that we’re going to hell, or judge us for the choices we make in our lives just because we believe differently than you.

      I know that “live and let live” is such a hard concept based on what your Bible tells you, but it really is the best policy.

      • Toni Foster

        First of all, I don’t live in a bubble nor are my beliefs sheltered by them. God is the creator of everything, so regardless if you choose to believe or not, it still is the truth. Secondly, based on my first point…Jesus said ” you cannot have two masters, you will hate one and love the other…since you admit you do not care about believing in Christ ..you openly admit you hate him, because you hate him …you hate us, his children. Third, how do you know what my parents choice of anything is? I will tell you this though…it goes back further than my parent’s beliefs…as far back as Abraham, Jacob and Issac…they are in The Old Testament…that goes back pretty far. Also, no one expects a non-believer to want to be “told how to live, or that they are going to hell, or to judge them for the choices they make” these are all things that YOU do yourself. The bible is The Word of God..if you choose not to believe it you answer to no one but God, therefore YOU judge yourself and YOU decide where you will spend eternity and how you will live your life here on this earth. As for, live and let live…..it’s not a hard concept!!!, but it is a ridiculous and unstable one…. people need each other and humans need a Saviour, again it is up to the individual to choose, that’s a fact…not a policy.

        • Paul Hiett

          “Humans need a savior”

          You might, I don’t.

          • charles freeman

            Standing before the Judgment Seat is a distinctly inopportune time to discover that your humanism was misplaced.

          • Sientje Seinen

            you do Paul, you need someone to carry you through death, into paradise, as Odin isnt real and only when you call on the name of the Lord will He come to your aid, as He does not force Himself upon you. when your strength wanes, then maybe you may call upon Him,

          • Toni Foster

            Without God, there is no Saviour. Without a Saviour there is no life, without life there is no living. But, we are here, and there is a Saviour, therefore , the God who created HIM is alive and well. Everyone Needs a Saviour….you are not your own person, you did not create yourself. You have every right to deny him…but you cannot change the fact the you don’t need one. You can keep living without Him…it doesn’t mean that you don’t or never did need Him. Hopefully, you are saying that out of past hurts and not pride…but either way, Yes, we all need a Saviour. Not a religion, nor a prophet, not a guru, not a muse etc etc…but a Saviour. And Jesus Christ is it.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Well said Toni.
            Especially about the parts of “Not by Religion, not by a Prophet, not by a Guru” – in fact, not by Any Humans subjected to frailty – and all are subject to frailty, except for our “Perfect Savoir, Jesus The Christ”.

            I can’t think of a single person that would say; “I don’t need any help at all”.
            We all struggle, regardless of Fame, or Fortune. In fact, those with Riches seem to need the most help of all…….what do you do when “Money” can’t buy you “Happiness”??
            Money can buy you “Scandal”, and also “loathing” by those closest to you. Is it no wonder that most “Rich People” are the ones committing the “Most Suicides”?….or, the “Most Murders”??

            Who, in their right mind, would turn down the opportunity to have “Complete Joy & Peacefulness”, as well as no longer having to “Worry, or have No More Sorrows”??

            Show me “One” of them, and I will show you a “LIAR”.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Paul, I understand you saying that. I know many people that say the same thing, so, you are not alone in that opinion.

            But, can I ask you one thing?

            Is there anything in your life that you “Regret”?
            It doesn’t have to be anything “you’ve done”….it could be something that was “Done to you” as well, or, to “someone else” that you loved, and feel that it was “unfair & unjustified”.
            It could also be something that you felt you deserved to have, but, you were “let down” by someone who made a promise to you.

            There are virtually millions of reasons to feel “regret”, or even “sorrow”, and certainly “pain”….not to mention “mental unrest, or frustration”.

            I can’t imagine anyone having a “Perfect Life”, especially when nearly everyone around them are are doing evil things…..how is it possible to “escape all that”??
            The only way to escape the “world around you” would be to “live in a cave”, or, on a “deserted island”….- Is that where you lived your whole life???

            Don’t you have “FRIENDS” that you “depend on”??
            Have you ever gone to a “Friends House” to tell them about something that’s been “Bothering You”?…….did they HELP YOU??
            If NOT, then you’ve got terrible “friends”.

            But, there was that “Moment” when you NEEDED A FRIEND, right?

            So, when we say that “Humans Need A Savior” it’s the SAME AS saying “HUMANS NEED A FRIEND”.

            Are you saying that “YOU DON’T NEED ANY FRIENDS”??

            I find that IMPOSSIBLE to believe, and, I KNOW that YOU don’t REALLY believe that either.

            Even our “PARENTS” ( well most parents ), LOVINGLY RAISE US, and they “Comfort Us”, especially when we are HURT.
            Have you NEVER HAD THAT??

            You know that there is TRUTH in wanting TO BE LOVED.

            “WHERE DO YOU EXPECT THAT LOVE TO COME FROM”???

            I guess maybe you don’t NEED LOVE, FRIENDS, OR ANY HELP AT ALL.
            You must be VERY LONELY to feel that way.
            I’m sorry that you don’t have such “desires”, like the rest of us HUMANS.

        • Sientje Seinen

          the problem with that is humans dont choose, it is the lord God whom elects those whom He wishes to come and serve Him, have you not read what Jesus said to his disciples.”You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and one of you is a devil?” see we dont choose, the lord does the electing,pray that you may be found worthy of Him.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            When you say; “pray that you may be found worthy of Him”, doesn’t that negate what Jesus did on the Cross??

            If we had the slightest chance to “Be Worthy”, then His Death Would Be Meaningless.

            In one place you say that “Jesus is the New Covenant”, and now you say “Pray That We Are Worthy Of Him”.

            The whole fact of the entire Bible is that WE ARE “NOT WORTHY OF HIM”…..I’m pretty sure that’s in a “few verses” somewhere.

            Pray all that you want….but, just as you said that God “Chooses You”, I must remind you that GOD MADE US ALL, and He “Chooses All”, and that He desires that “None Should Perish”.

            But……

            We MUST CHOOSE GOD.

            God “Knocks At The Door”….WE MUST LET HIM IN.

            It was always OUR CHOICE TO SIN, and, it will always be OUR CHOICE TO TRUST IN GOD “To Forgive Us”, if we are “repentant”.
            But, even in “Repentance”, the Stain Of Sin is ever upon us. It is only by the Blood Of Jesus’ Sacrifice that our “SINS MAY BE COVERED FROM GOD’S EYES”, and remembered no more.

            It will NEVER be because “WE ARE WORTHY”.

            This is why we come to God in Humility, and Humbly requesting His Forgiveness.
            Those who do not “request It” (ask & you shall receive), will NEVER receive it.

            How can we ever be Worthy of God’s Forgiveness??
            Is it by RITUALS & PRAYER??

          • Sientje Seinen

            we are unworthy, even John the baptist said that he wasnt worthy to tie his sandals, Christ makes us worthy as He covers us with His blood, it is by looking to Him the author of our faith, that we are conformed into His image and become children of God. According to Genesis that is not true that God created all of us, as in Genesis 3 verses 14-15 it is written. “I will put enmity between thee and the woman between thy seed and the seed of the woman, It shall crush thy head and ye shall crush its heel.”
            And why would Christ call some of the pharisees “spawns of satan” or brood of vipers” seed of the serpent? and why would God say “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated” isnt it because Esau was irreverent? You are right that the Lord God does not despise a repentant heart or broken spirit, and asking forgiveness in the name of Christ and yes the Lord God forgives our trespasses, even though some are hidden which we dont know about, and removes them as far as east is from the west solely because of Christ’s redeeming work at Calvary. but those whom keep on in their sins are mocking Christ suffering, and are called the children of disobedience. Paul tells us to be in and out of prayer unceasingly.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Instead of going into a whole big spiel and lengthy reply, you should’ve just stayed at YOUR FIRST THREE WORDS….
            “WE ARE UNWORTHY”.

            And you should’ve just said that YOU WERE “INCORRECT” in making such a statement to Toni to; “Pray that you are found to be worthy of Him”.

            Your first 3 words SUFFICED……..there is NO NEED TO “TRY TO GO AROUND WHAT YOU INCORRECTLY STATED”.
            And, neither is there any need to “PREACH TO ME”.
            I’m NOT the one in ERROR – you are.

          • Sientje Seinen

            whatever go and tell it to the lord seems you have no kindness in your heart, do you not know that the Lord chastens everyone whom He receives to show us what is not good within us? seems to me you need a lot of work, as we are all a work in progress when we look to the Author of our faith Jesus our Lord as He conforms us into His image and makes us children of God.and dont you think Toni could speak for himself, it is you that is trying to make trouble there is nothing wrong with asking the Lord to make one worthy of His love.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            For the ONE WHO REFUSES TO LISTEN, but LOVES TO “TELL OTHERS”, I will repeat…..

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            If you dont stop you going to end up with a stroke, why dont you study the Holy scriptures and know that when you have accepted Christ as your Lord and saviour, the Lord pours His love into your heart. and the Holy spirit convicts us of sin,and points us the grace which is in Christ, as if ye by the spirit put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live” so walk in the spirit and not according to the flesh, Romans 8 verse one. there look it up. and stop yelling.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I have STUDIED THE SCRIPTURES, which is WHY I KNOW I’M RIGHT.
            You are the one TELLING PEOPLE TO PRAY THEY ARE WORTHY – not me.

            NO ONE IS WORTHY….why can’t you JUST ADMIT YOUR ERROR???

            This isn’t ABOUT ME – it’s ABOUT YOU!!!!!!

            And if MY BIG WORDS ARE HURTING “YOUR EARS”, well, that’s just TOO BAD!!!
            Maybe if you LISTENED….I would’nt have to SHOUT?????

            Stop DENYING that you were WRONG to say that to TONI, or, anyone else for that matter.
            You don’t want to be TOLD WHAT TO PRAY FOR….and, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TELL ANYONE ELSE what to “PRAY FOR”…….you don’t know ANYTHING ABOUT THEM!!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            no it is rude to shout at people and especially if they ask you not to shout, you just showing yourself up to be an ignoramus, I can say to anyone `pray that ye are worthy of God `s saving grace. as when we pray we can ask the Lord to help us become worthy ,as He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy` it is not our own doing it is gift from the Lord God. As God does not despise a broken spirit, you believe I was wrong but I dont care what you believe you arent my judge, Can you see what goes on in my heart. though I have a pretty good idea what goes on in yours, with wanting to be right all the time and not giving an inch that you could be wrong about me, calling me a fraud, Christ would never do that, He knows my heart, and I have heard His voice whether you believe it or not. So I know the Lord lives and hears me, when I come before Him, and lay my sorrows and burdens before Him. Peter 5:7 `Casting your cares upon Him for He careth for you.` I suggest you get an hearing aid, as only deaf people shout

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You are truly DENSE.

            Do you want some “Cheese” with all that WHINE??

            In your own words….

            “PRAY TO BE FOUND WORTHY OF JESUS CHRIST”.

            You’re really going to need a lot of those PRAYERS.

            I’m done talking to a 3 Year Old that can’t admit their own ERRORS, but, doesn’t SHY AWAY from “Pointing Out What YOU believe To Be Other People’s Iniquity”.

            Like I said, time & time again….YOU’RE NOTHING BUT A HYPOCRITICAL FRAUD, AND FALSE TEACHER.

            You’re not even WORTHY to be called “Teacher”.

            There is only ONE TEACHER – and, you aren’t HIM.

            Live with it.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            It’s really IRONIC that you asked me “WHO ARE YOU TO SAY HOW A PERSON SHOULD PRAY”??

            Guess what…..THAT WAS “MY FIRST QUESTION TO YOU”, when YOU TOLD TONI to “pray that you are found to be WORTHY OF HIM”.

            Did you ALREADY FORGET WHERE THIS ALL STARTED, you HYPOCRITE??

            Then you have the “AUDACITY” TO ASK THAT OF “ME”??

            Like I said way earlier…stop drinking those BEERS!!!
            As you have NO CLUE of even YOUR OWN WORDS – you Fraud!!!

            I’m done arguing with a you, you fraudulent hypocrite.

            And AGAIN….I don’t need to be “PREACHED TO”, especially from a person who doesn’t even REMEMBER what THEY SAID to START THIS ENTIRE CONVERSATION.

            I suppose I should THROW THOSE WORDS BACK IN YOUR FACE….

            “WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT A PERSON SHOULD PRAY”??
            (a reminder of what YOU told Toni).

            It’s really FUN exposing you for what you REALLY ARE!!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            you are a nut bar, you are like a dog with a bone, cant let of it, you sure are not following in the Lord’s footsteps with your harasment of others. go fly a kite

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            “Whatever”……that’s what a CHILD SAYS when they HAVE NO ANSWER!!!

            I suppose I can guess what your age is now, right?
            You’re a little INFANT, crying that YOU CAN’T WIN THIS ARGUMENT, and now you are THROWING YOUR LITTLE “TANTRUM”…..and are NOW “attacking me”, because THAT’S ALL YOU HAVE TO “DEFEND YOURSELF WITH”…..poor baby – you can’t use “Your Words”, so you shrink back into the WOMB and respond “WHATEVER”!!!

            You’re a joke pretending to be a “teacher”, when all you are is an “ignorant student” rebelling because YOU WERE “REBUKED”.

            Can’t take the HEAT?…..stay out of the Kitchen!!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            For a person with “4,120 Comments”, and only “740 UPVOTES”, you seem to be the LAST PERSON TO ASK ABOUT ANY SCRIPTURE.

            That’s LESS THAN “18%” “Approval Rating”.

            yeah….we should ALL listen to YOU…..LMFAO!!

            As for me….not boasting, just stating FACTS……I have “786 Comments”, with “329 UPVOTES”…..which would be an “APPROVAL RATING OF 42%”.
            I guess people LIKE what I say more than they like what YOU SAY.
            And, the FACT that you keep your “COMMENTS PRIVATE”, is only MORE PROOF that you don’t want anyone else seeing the ASININE COMMENTS YOU MAKE…..otherwise, why else would you “HIDE THEM”??
            Even YOU are not convinced of your OWN WORDS. Because if you THOUGHT YOU WERE RIGHT – then you would “Stand By What You Say”, without ANY SHAME of “What You Wrote”.

            You are walking PROOF that there is NO SHORTAGE of EGOMANIACS in this world.
            And, the fact the you CONTINUE TO ARGUE in the face of ALL THE FACTS AGAINST YOU, is only more PROOF that you can’t stand it WHEN SOMEONE CATCHES YOU LYING.

            Trust me when I say…I HAVE NO INTERESTS IN “ANY” OF YOUR OTHER ASININE COMMENTS…..so, PLEASE, BY ALL MEANS – “KEEP THEM PRIVATE”!!!!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            And NOW you want to create a NEW ARGUMENT to “Distract” from the fact that you’ve made a MISTAKE.

            Instead, YOU are trying to MAKE ME LOOK LIKE I MADE A MISTAKE.

            So, you are “DOUBLING DOWN” now, right??

            Okay……you’ve made ANOTHER ERROR in your “attempt” to discredit me.

            Here’s what YOU WROTE ABOVE…..

            “According to Genesis that is “not true” that God created all of us,”.

            Are you kidding me????
            Are you serious????

            IS GOD NOT THE “CREATOR OF ALL THINGS”???
            AND BY HIS POWER “ALL THINGS HAVE THEIR BEING”??

            Are you saying that???

            Sorry, but your stupid REPLY was a bad GAMBLE on Your Part, and you shouldn’t have TRIED TO “DOUBLE DOWN ON YOUR INITIAL ERROR BY MAKING ANOTHER ERROR”.

            Anyone “IN THEIR RIGHT MIND” knows that “GOD CREATED ALL THINGS”.
            The ONLY one’s who would DENY THAT is Satan & his CHILDREN.

            You “PREACH THE WORD OF GOD”, but “YOU DON’T BELIEVE THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS”????

            I’m sorry….I do believe that you have had too many BEERS!!!

            You should sit down and RECONSIDER YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT – which makes NO SENSE AT ALL.

            And, last of all….YOU SHOULD DEFINITELY “STOP TRYING TO PREACH”!!!!…..as you don’t have a CLUE what you’re talking about…even in the SIMPLEST THINGS.

            #1 GOD CREATED ALL THINGS.
            #2 WE ARE NOT WORTHY OF HIS REDEMPTION

            If you can DISAGREE with those TWO SIMPLE POINTS, then you have NO RIGHT to even “Mention God”, let alone…’PREACH IN HIS NAME’.

            You’ve just proven you know NOTHING, and that you are the LAST PERSON ON EARTH to be “PREACHING ANYTHING”.!!!!

            Have a Nice day!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            God is the creator of good and evil .He created Lucifer also that angel whom is also known as satan, Do you not know that Jesus said “I saw satan falling from heaven having great wrath” Why do you suppose the Lord called some of the pharisees, sadducees brood of vipers, and do you know when satan was kicked out of heaven a host of angels came with him, So there are the children of obedience whom believe on Christ as their redeemer and those whom are disobedient and mock Christ suffering on Calvary and do not repent. but take pleasure in their sins, so when homosexuals say they are born that way, we are all born in sin, but some of are turn to Christ and are reborn of the spirit, May the Lord have mercy on you and make you worthy, even paul mentions that He had fought the good fight, so that a crown of righteousness was laid up for him, may you also fight the good fight and keep the faith by proclaiming that there is no other savior beside christ our Lord.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            And….you’re also WRONG about “Christ Making Us Worthy”!!!
            Jesus is the ONE that “TOOK ON OUR PUNISHMENT”.
            We will NEVER BE WORTHY…..we can ONLY be “Forgiven”.

            You are STUCK on this “WE BECOME WORTHY” thing, aren’t you???
            We will NEVER become WORTHY, regardless of HOW MUCH WE REPENT or, HOW MUCH WE PRAY, or, HOW MUCH WE CHANGE!!!

            Those things only LEAD US TO “HIS LOVING FORGIVENESS”, but, IT NEVER CHANGES WHAT WE DID TO “SIN”….NEVER!!

            The whole PURPOSE of Jesus dying on the Cross, was so that “WE DON’T HAVE TO”…..HE TOOK ON OUR INIQUITIES!!!!!

            Get it?????

            Man, you are dense, and, you LACK THE HUMILITY TO ADMIT YOUR ERRORS.
            How then do you expect Jesus to forgive you IF YOU DON’T ADMIT YOUR SINS??

            Is any of this SINKING IN YET???

          • Sientje Seinen

            how do you know I havent asked the Lord for forgiveness of my many transgressions or not always walking in the faith and for Him to cleanse my heart of all unrightenous? Do I not know that Christ died to reconcile us to the Father. but Christ is not an agent of sin that we are allowed to go on sinning, we are to turn away from our sins and be in an out of prayer unceasingly that we wont be let into temptation and we look toChrist the author of our faith as He also was tempted by satan. As only He can help us through trials and temptations if we stay close to him in prayer. stop your yelling at me, do you believe you are the savior of the world, the Lord knows my heart and He keeps me in His care I dont need you to tell me. as I have heard His voice, and know that my Redeemer lives.You are a bully the way you force people to believe as you do, I havent committed the same sins as you, and I am sure if you confessed your sins to Him, He would know whether you are truly sorry or not, I am not here to tell you about your sins, just that I hope you daily walk with Him, and ask for guidance in your life, stop yelling it is rude. Then why does the Lord tell us when we confess our sins and believe in Christ He will remove our sins as far as east is from the west, You either believe they are forgiven or you still have doubts that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            For the HARD OF HEARING….I will repeat again…..

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Laughingly…I will answer these “other questions” you have asked, WHICH ARE ALL “OUT OF CONTEXT”, and have NOTHING to do with “What I Originally Asked You”….

            Here’s what you asked;……

            >>>According to Genesis that is not true that God created all of us, as in Genesis 3 verses 14-15 it is written. “I will put enmity between thee and the woman between thy seed and the seed of the woman, It shall crush thy head and ye shall crush its heel.”
            And why would Christ call some of the pharisees “spawns of satan” or brood of vipers” seed of the serpent? and why would God say “Jacob I loved but Esau I hated” isnt it because Esau was irreverent?<<<

            #1 the first question is YOUR way of saying "GOD DIDN'T MAKE ALL OF US"…which is RIDICULOUS.

            But, if we PUT IN WHAT "YOU LEFT OUT", not only does it NOT SAY that God didn't make ALL OF US", but, and most importantly, "IT'S ABOUT A CURSE THAT GOD PUT ON THE SERPENT" (which is STILL one of God's Creations).

            So, let's look at the WHOLE CURSE towards the SERPENT "WHO BEGUILED EVE TO SIN"…..

            14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

            “Cursed are you above all livestock
            and all wild animals!
            You will crawl on your belly
            and you will eat dust
            all the days of your life.
            15 And I will put enmity
            between you and the woman,
            and between your offspring[a] and hers;
            he will crush[b] your head,
            and you will strike his heel.”

            16 To the woman he said,

            “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
            with painful labor you will give birth to children.
            Your desire will be for your husband,
            and he will rule over you.”

            —————————————————-

            It looks like YOU LEFT OUT A LOT OF THAT STORY ON "PURPOSE".

            It's talking about the "ORIGINAL SIN"…..and, if it applies to anything, IT APPLIES TO WHAT I SAID ABOUT "ALL HAVE SINNED", as well as "ALL ARE CURSED".

            To answer the FACT of ALL OF US BEING CURSED, I will refer you to Revelations 22:3…..

            "3 No longer will there be any "CURSE". The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him".

            ——————————–

            Next question #2 "And why would Christ call some of the pharisees "spawns of satan" or brood of vipers" seed of the serpent?"

            First….he NEVER SAID "SEED OF SERPENT", nor did he say "SPAWNS OF SATAN"….I guess you're reading from a DIFFERENT BIBLE THAN I AM.

            So, again, not only do you LEAVE WORDS OUT…..but, NOW YOU ADD YOUR OWN WORDS.

            It must be very SAD for you to be WRONG, so, instead, you try to "SQUIRM YOUR WAY AROUND BY MAKING UP LIES", AND TAKING THINGS "OUT OF CONTEXT".

            Does that make you FEEL BETTER??

            IN MATTHEW 23…JESUS "WARNS THE PHARISEES", WITH "SEVEN WARNINGS"…..and, they are all about HYPOCRISY.

            But, if we were to COMPARE what THEY DO, to what EVERYONE ELSE DOES (which is sinning), THEN I GUESS WE ARE "ALL SPAWNS OF SATAN IN THAT REGARD"….and that INCLUDES YOU.

            So, to be FACTUAL, instead of DELUSIONAL, I will be GLAD TO SHOW YOU WHAT JESUS "REALLY SAID". If you can FIND THAT VERSE YOU QUOTED, let me know WHERE IT IS – okay??……..

            Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees

            13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [b]

            15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

            16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

            23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

            25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

            27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

            29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

            33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

            37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

            Footnotes:
            Matthew 23:5 That is, boxes containing Scripture verses, worn on forehead and arm
            Matthew 23:14 Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47.
            Matthew 23:39 Psalm 118:26

            ———————————————–

            Funny, I don't SEE a single word about "SPAWNS OF SATAN", or about "ANY SERPENTS".

            The CONTEXT of "BROOD OF VIPERS" is to convey "HOW THEY OPERATE AROUND THE LAW", in the fashion of a SNAKE, which REPRESENTS "ALL EVIL"…..not just "THEIR EVIL WAYS".

            Two down, and one to go…..

            #3 "and why would God say "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated" isnt it because Esau was irreverent?"

            ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS EASY…."YES", GOD HATED THE "ATTITUDE OF ESAU"…….not because Esau was being "IRREVERENT", it was mostly because Esau WAS BEING "IGNORANT".

            Esau "SOLD HIS INHERITANCE FOR A BOWL OF SOUP"…..that hardly makes him "IRREVERENT", it just makes him STUPID.
            2nd….God DOESN'T "HATE ESAU"…….God HATES "EDOM", and they are the "CHILDREN OF ESAU".
            The REASON God hates them is BECAUSE THEY REFUSED TO LET "ISRAEL PASS TO GET TO THE PROMISED LAND", AND "MOAB" (the children of Lot) DID THE SAME EXACT THING.
            And, at ALL TIMES they HATED ISRAEL, and were HAPPY WHEN ISRAEL WENT INTO "EXILE".

            So, again…THIS IS YOU TAKING THINGS "OUT OF CONTEXT"!!!
            Go is NOT TALKING ABOUT "ESAU" DIRECTLY…..GOD IS TALKING ABOUT "EDOM", THE CHILDREN OF ESAU…….IN FACT, IT EVEN SAYS THAT IN THE VERSES IN "MALACHI", as follows……

            Malachi 1

            1 A prophecy: The word of the Lord to Israel through Malachi.

            Israel Doubts God’s Love

            2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.

            “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

            “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob,3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

            4 Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

            But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish.They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord—even beyond the borders of Israel!’

            ———————————————

            Clearly God is talking about EDOM, the same way he talked about the PHILISTINES, AMALEKITES, or any other TRIBES that WENT AGAINST "ISRAEL".

            When God is talking about EGYPT, He calls them "HAM", doesn't He??

            I hope that I've answered your "OFF THE TOPIC QUESTIONS", which have NOTHING TO DO WITH "US BEING WORTHY".

            Have a good night!!!

            And…"try again".

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            By you saying to “Pray that you may be found worthy of Him”, is the same as saying “A CRIMINAL SHOULD NEVER BE JUDGED, OR SENTENCED”, because he Prayed to be found worthy not to be punished.

            Is a criminal Worthy of his own Punishment???
            If so, then he is certainly “Not Worthy” to GO FREE.
            It is only by the Blood Of Jesus that we may escape our Punishment, and NOT by anything we’ve done “To Be Found Worthy Of”.

          • Sientje Seinen

            why would a criminal pray to be found worthy? if a criminal would pray to be found worthy,and he would not acknowledge His misdeeds and therefore not repentant he would the same as the thief on the cross, who said to Christ, “If you are the Messiah come down from the cross” whereas the other told him to be quiet and said that w e deserve our punisment, and asked the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom, One acknowledge that he is deserving of the penalty,showing repentance whereas the other whom christ did not answer mocked Him.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Indeed, you’re asking the SAME QUESTION that I asked you.

            “Why would a criminal pray to be found worthy”??????

            The ANSWER is in the QUESTION.

            Just as you told Toni Foster to: “Pray that you may be found worthy of Him”.

            How can Toni, or,, ANYONE ELSE pray to be found worthy when ALL HAVE SINNED??

            Instead of “Asking Me What I Asked You”….why not just say that YOU WERE WRONG to make such a statement??

            Are WE not those same “Criminals”????

            Have we not SINNED???

            You don’t even SEE THE ANSWER, WHICH YOU YOURSELF HAVE STATED……

            “Why should a criminal pray to be found worthy”? – IS THE ANSWER……….”HE IS NOT WORTHY”, and neither can any PRAYERS make him worthy.

            It is ONLY by the “Blood Of Jesus” that HE IS “PROTECTED” FROM HIS DESERVED PUNISHMENT.

            I guess my question was TOO HARD FOR YOU.

            Rather than admitting your ERROR, you “PREACH TO ME” by saying; “if a criminal would pray to be found worthy,and he would not acknowledge His misdeeds and therefore not repentant”.

            That’s a long way around your error. Instead you are preaching to me the very thing in which YOU’VE ERRED.

            That makes no sense to me.

            Instead, you SHOULD BE ANSWERING THE FIRST QUESTION YOU JUST ASKED ME…..

            “Why would a criminal pray to be found worthy”?

            ANSWER – HE SHOULDN’T, AND HAS NO RIGHT TO DO SO.

            Which makes your statement to Toni INCORRECT by telling Toni to “PRAY THAT YOU MAY BE FOUND WORTHY OF HIM”……None are Worthy of Him.

            By your own question you surely REALIZE THIS, right??

          • Sientje Seinen

            you can still pray to be found worthy of Him, if you are truly repentant, as Christ said “whoever comes to me I will in no way cast out” so you come with a lowly heart, but if you come with a proud heart believing on your own good works, then you really believe it is your works that save you, instead of Christ redemptive work done at Calvary. am not preaching you are just being obnoxious. A criminal can still pray with a lowly heart and ask the Lord to have mercy on him. as long as he is truly repentant and makes restitution to those he has defrauded.it is that you believe that you are so perfect, where is your humility with which the christians are crowned?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Cry if you want to, but, I will simply repeat what I’ve BEEN SAYING FOR THE “HARD OF HEARING”………..

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            What are you smoking anyway. I am not trying to teach anybody anything, it is you that get carried away with your own importance, NOt once have I seen give thanks to the Lord or praise to His name for redeeming us all you do is yell and wanting people to give you the glory, what are you, some nut bar?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Not once have you heard me “GIVE THANKS”??
            Are you freakin CRAZY??

            That’s ALL that I’ve been doing.

            I’ve been REPEATING OVER & OVER & OVER how “UNWORTHY WE ARE”, and “ONLY BY HIS BLOOD ARE WE SAVED”.

            You’re the NUTBAR that has REFUSED TO “ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, not me.

            That IS what this Conversation is ALL ABOUT.

            It’s NOT MY FAULT that you CAN’T ADMIT YOU’RE WRONG!!

            That’s YOUR PROBLEM, not mine…..DEAL WITH IT.

          • Sientje Seinen

            you havent apologized once for shouting at me, I dont appreciate it, I am not deaf, well if you believe that did you get baptized and made a confession of faith, to believe On His Word and live your life for Him. Did you ask Him to cleanse your heart of wicked thoughts and create clean spirit within you Instead you shout at me, when I asked you twice to quit shouting so you must be deaf, or hard of hearing. It seems you have lots of issues that you havent dealt with yelling isnt giving thanks or pointing out my faults isnt giving thanks either.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I have NOTHING to “Apologize” for…..I didn’t go around TELLING PEOPLE THAT “THEY ARE NOT WORTHY, AND THAT THEY SHOULD “PRAY TO BE FOUND WORTHY”……that moronic statement belongs strictly to YOU.

            Do you want some “Cheese” with all that WHINE??

            In your own words….

            “PRAY TO BE FOUND WORTHY OF JESUS CHRIST”.

            You’re really going to need a lot of those PRAYERS.

            I’m done talking to a 3 Year Old that can’t admit their own ERRORS, but, doesn’t SHY AWAY from “Pointing Out What YOU believe To Be Other People’s Iniquity”.

            Like I said, time & time again….YOU’RE NOTHING BUT A HYPOCRITICAL FRAUD, AND FALSE TEACHER.

            You’re not even WORTHY to be called “Teacher”.

            There is only ONE TEACHER – and, you aren’t HIM.

            Live with it.

          • Sientje Seinen

            why dont you just study your bible and ask the Lord to give you insight and understanding in same, instead of yelling at people and pretending you know so much, I wrote “pray that you might be found worthy? what is wrong with that, Isnt that what Christ told his disciples, I dont get insulted if someone tells me that, I know I am unworthy and that only believing in Christ and His redeeming work can make us worthy. God’s love for mankind was manifested in Christ our Lord. So what is your problem why do you get insulted when it wasnt even directed at you. You should be ashamed not giving the other person a chance to reply what are you the lawyer of Toni, how much is she paying you to answer for her? ignorant much?

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Finally….after all you’re whining, and misdirection’s, and, most of all your “Continued Dictating” of WHAT I SHOULD DO, as well as Toni, and the countless others that you dictate your false doctrines to, you have FINALLY admitted the “one thing” that this entire lengthy conversation is “All About”.

            You’ve FINALLY said the “4 Words” that you know to be the TRUTH, but, incorrectly tell others the complete opposite of.

            In your OWN WORDS, you’ve FINALLY said the CORRECT words, which, as YOU WROTE ABOVE are; – “I AM NOT WORTHY”.

            If you simply said that in the BEGINNING you would’ve ended a lot of grief for yourself, and we could’ve possibly spoke pleasantly to each other, and even led each other into the Greatness, and Awesome Powers of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ – who’s sandals “I Am Not Worthy To Untie”.

            All the “other words” you wrote surrounding those “4 Words’, mean nothing else to me, because that was NOT what the “Question” was that I originally asked you.

            A direct question deserves a direct answer, all else is a distraction from the original subject at hand.
            If you are unable to answer a direct question with a SIMPLE DIRECT ANSWER, next time, just say so.
            I don’t consider this to be a game of “Points”….and there really is NO WINNER.
            I’m not trying to be “king of the hill”, and what YOU THINK OF “ME”, makes no difference to the QUESTION ASKED.

            Putting the “shoe on the other foot”, I’m sure that if YOU asked ME a “Direct Question”, you would’ve appreciated a “Direct Answer”. It’s really a simple concept. And, it’s how a “Meaningful Conversation” can begin between two people. If, after answering the Direct Question, you want to “Elaborate” on it, that’s all well & good.

            But, I can’t continue any conversation with anyone that can’t answer the question asked of them, and, until that question gets answered I feel no “Obligation” to INDULGE any “Other Conversation” that is outside of the “Original Topic”……..before we can have any dialogue, we have to set the boundaries of the SUBJECT MATTER at hand. If that is something you wish to AVOID….than simply say: ‘I DON’T WANT TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION”, and leave it at that. At least THAT WAY there will be NO ANIMOSITY, no NAME CALLING….just two people that cannot have a conversation, because one of them refuses to concede to certain facts. That’s a conversation that will always produce the SAME THING that you’ve been doing these past 5 days……and, what did all that accomplish?? NOTHING.
            Without compromise, or concessions, or even hearing someone out, THERE IS NO CONVERSATION – just bitterness, which you’ve displayed throughout this entire matter.
            All of that was completely unnecessary had you simply answered the first question, which you have still yet to ANSWER DIRECTLY without some HUGE Dialogue that is not even part of the question asked.
            How else do you expect people to respond to you?

            Like I said…if you asked ME the same question, I would’ve answered it in one of two ways…1) You’re correct, and I made an error, or, 2) I’m not sure, and cannot answer.
            My question was a FACTUAL QUESTION, of which you and I BOTH knew the answer to it, however, it was your PRIDE that prevented you from answering it “Truthfully” without discrediting yourself……there is no shame in admitting you’ve made a mistake….I MAKE MISTAKES ALL THE TIME, and, I will be the first one to admit it, as soon as it is brought to my attention. I might say to myself….”maybe I should’ve worded that better, or, maybe I left something out, or, maybe I’m just plain wrong”…..I AM GLAD TO FIND OUT I’VE MADE AN ERROR….I don’t want to CONTINUE IN SOMETHING THAT IS INCORRECT….of course I would want to know the TRUTH. And, everyday, I LEARN A NEW TRUTH, and, most of the time – IT’S ABOUT ME.

            I hope that in the future you will consider an answer that doesn’t have to force you to defend yourself…..simply let your “Yes” be your Yes, and a “No” be your No.
            Either they will believe you, or they won’t, but – you can’t FORCE THEM TO ACCEPT EVERYTHING YOU SAY as being “Gospel”…..no one is that “Knowledgeable”, or, “Infallible”…….if you think you are, then YOU’RE NOT BEING A HUMAN – You just became GOD.

            Good Bye.

          • Sientje Seinen

            I dont believe you are a christian, you walk in judgment of me, who the hell are you? some freak, who believes he has to be shown he is right, you are nothing but big wind bag. go and get lost, I dont like you, you are so stupid if you feel you made an error then go ask the person to forgive you, and be thankful that they do, right now I am fed up with your yelling, and your accusations. I know the Truth you dont, you believe in your own twisted truth. I am not defending myself, I am telling you that I think you are a jerk whom picks on people, and it doesnt seem that your yes is yes and your no is no, no you are like a dog with a bone, gnawing and gnawing the same old, old. you should be ashamed of calling yourself a christian, You like to dish it out but you dont like when I tell you you are one of the worst hypocrites walking around Repent and ask the lord to cleanse your heart from harassing others whom havent done you any wrong. repent

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Me?….I don’t think I’m anybody, UNLIKE YOU.
            I also don’t feel the need to have the last word, UNLIKE YOU.
            I also don’t DICTATE to others, UNLIKE YOU.
            I also don’t call people NAMES, and PRETEND I’m a Christian, UNLIKE YOU.
            I can go on & on & on about YOU, but, what good would it do?? You don’t possess the HUMILITY needed to be “IN SERVICE TO GOD” – you only SERVE YOURSELF.

            A great question would be; “IF YOU’RE ‘FED UP’ WITH ME, THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP FEELING THE NEED TO TELL ME HOW BAD I AM, AND HOW GOOD YOU ARE”??? “Me thinks thou doesth protest too much” ~ Shakespeare

            If a person IRRITATES YOU, then why “WASTE YOUR TIME ON A DOG LIKE ME”??????? Could it be that you REALIZE that the REAL DOG IS “YOU”?? – MUST BE, OTHERWISE, YOU WOULD’VE “STOPPED TALKING TO ME WEEKS AGO”……yet, somehow YOU KEEP CRAWLING BACK in some TWISTED EFFORT to “PROVE YOURSELF BETTER THAN THIS OLD DOG”……an ELITIST LIKE YOU shouldn’t have to PROVE ANYTHING TO A “LOWLIFE LIKE ME” – RIGHT?

            I mean – THAT IS WHAT YOU’RE SAYING, RIGHT?…….THAT YOU’RE “BETTER THAN ME”??

            AN INTELLIGENT PERSON WOULD HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH A DOG LIKE ME….BUT, WE BOTH KNOW THAT’S NOT YOU!!!
            TIME, AND TIME, AND TIME AGAIN, YOU FEEL THE NEED TO “IMPRESS THIS DOG” OF HOW MUCH “BETTER YOU ARE THAN ME”.

            AND, THEN, YOU SAY; “YOU’RE NOT A CHRISTIAN” TO ME???

            I THINK YOU SHOULD “LOOK UP THE WORD CHRISTIAN”…..BECAUSE YOU SURE AS HELL AREN’T ACTING “LIKE A CHRISTIAN”.

            GFYS.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S…this is MY LAST REPLY to your childish NONSENSE.
            Only a fool argues with a FOOL, and you’ve proven yourself to be the BIGGEST FOOL I’VE EVER HAD THE DISPLEASURE of communicating with….if you can call it “Communicating”…..it’s more like “YOU SPEAK”, and, “WE ALL MUST LISTEN”.

            And, I was “FED UP WITH YOU” when you made that ASININE COMMENT to “Toni” that BEGAN this “communication”. So, if anyone has a RIGHT TO COMPLAIN, it’s certainly ME.

            But, by all means keep on CRYING LIKE A BABY about “HOW FED UP YOU ARE”…..if you can’t take the CRITICISM, then STAY OUT OF THE KITCHEN……FED UP OR NOT – I CAN COMMENT WHEN I SEE “FALSE DOCTRINES & LIES”, AND YOU ARE “FAMOUS FOR BOTH”.
            Too bad you can’t take it, BUT YOU “LOVE DISHING IT OUT”.
            Just read your own COMMENT ABOVE to see that PROOF.

            The ONLY “Non-Christian” here IS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            (Spawn of satan is more appropriate for you)

            So RAVE ON like the MAD, INSANE PERSON that you claim I am.
            All you’ve proven is that you’re just a HYPOCRITE – nothing more.

            I don’t have to say another word. All anyone has to do is READ YOUR RIDICULOUS COMMENTS…that’s all the PROOF that anyone needs.
            Too bad you don’t READ WHAT YOU WRITE, maybe you’d see how stupid you’re being, instead of accusing me of being stupid.

            All you’ve proven is that “YOU CAN’T STAND TO BE CAUGHT BEING WRONG”……..that’s a problem for your PSYCHIATRIST & YOU…..that’s not anything I can deal with.

            Say hello to the PINK ELEPHANTS in your PADDED ROOM.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Oh, gosh…I keep forgetting…
            “YOU ARE MORE WORTHY” than anyone else.

            Why can’t I remember that???

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You wrote this…..”by the way you didnt ask me a question, you jumped on me because I wrote something that you didnt like and here you are still gnawing that same old bone five days later Repent.”
            ————————————————

            Like DUH….I’m not the one that CAME BACK to “gnaw on a bone” five days later……I do believe that is YOU “ADDRESSING ME” above.

            You’ll NEVER GET anything, will you?
            You LOVE putting your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH…….too bad you can’t KEEP IT THERE!!!

            But, RAVE ON……defend the INSANITY that TORMENTS YOU.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            I haven’t made ANY ERROR, and I’m NOT asking forgiveness.
            YOU made the ERROR, and, I PROVED IT.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Okay….just to “SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT” about “What I First Asked You 10 Days Ago”, here’s a “COPY OF WHAT I FIRST ASKED YOU”.

            Yet, somehow, you JUST SAID that “I Never Asked You Anything” when you wrote ABOVE THAT; “by the way you didnt ask me a question, you jumped on me because I wrote something that you didnt like”

            —————————————————-

            So, for ALL TO SEE, which you can’t even REMEMBER…..

            Here’s my FIRST QUESTION TO YOU……….
            ———————————————–
            Revelation55 > Sientje Seinen • 10 days ago

            When you say; “pray that you may be found worthy of Him”, doesn’t that negate what Jesus did on the Cross??

            If we had the slightest chance to “Be Worthy”, then His Death Would Be Meaningless.

            In one place you say that “Jesus is the New Covenant”, and now you say “Pray That We Are Worthy Of Him”.

            The whole fact of the entire Bible is that WE ARE “NOT WORTHY OF HIM”…..I’m pretty sure that’s in a “few verses” somewhere.

            Pray all that you want….but, just as you said that God “Chooses You”, I must remind you that GOD MADE US ALL, and He “Chooses All”, and that He desires that “None Should Perish”.

            But……

            We MUST CHOOSE GOD.

            God “Knocks At The Door”….WE MUST LET HIM IN.

            It was always OUR CHOICE TO SIN, and, it will always be OUR CHOICE TO TRUST IN GOD “To Forgive Us”, if we are “repentant”.
            But, even in “Repentance”, the Stain Of Sin is ever upon us. It is only by the Blood Of Jesus’ Sacrifice that our “SINS MAY BE COVERED FROM GOD’S EYES”, and remembered no more.

            It will NEVER be because “WE ARE WORTHY”.

            This is why we come to God in Humility, and Humbly requesting His Forgiveness.
            Those who do not “request It” (ask & you shall receive), will NEVER receive it.

            How can we ever be Worthy of God’s Forgiveness??
            Is it by RITUALS & PRAYER??

            Edit

            Reply

            Share ›
            —————————————————————–

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            P.S…..By you TELLING TONI to “Pray to be found worthy of Him”, also IMPLIES that “YOU ARE WORTHY OF HIM”, and that “TONI IS NOT WORTHY OF HIM”.

            That’s also yet another FALLACY in YOUR WORDS.

            So far the COUNT is at least 5 things you have said INCORRECTLY.

            Maybe you should start TAKING YOUR OWN ADVICE, and start PRAYING FOR YOURSELF???
            And, leave the Judgments up to God…..and STOP telling everyone else what THEY SHOULD DO.

          • Sientje Seinen

            good Lord what I tell others I take for myself also dont you, I guess yu keep yelling and dont make any sense why dont you take out the beam that is in your own eye so that you can see clearly the splinter in my eye?” you are a hypocrite, Toni didnt seem to take offense to it, You did, what is the matter with you? I think it is even written in the Holy scriptures that Christ tells us Himself to pray that we are worthy to escape all these things. when His disciples asked when the end of the age would be. toni wasnt objecting you are, you make way too much noise as the lord loves a quiet spirit which in His sight is of a great price. I hope the Lord will be merciful to you, even though you are rude obnoxious and believing more in yourself than relying on the Lord for answers

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            And again I repeat…..

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            “One acknowledge that he is deserving of the penalty,showing repentance whereas the other whom christ did not answer mocked Him.”

            Guess what?…..NEITHER ONE OF THEM “WERE WORTHY”!!!
            In YOUR OWN WORDS you said that “one said that HE DESERVES his penalty”, which makes him UNWORTHY.
            And the “other”, who Jesus did not answer, is also NOT WORTHY.

            You’re still NOT getting this, are you???

          • Sientje Seinen

            I do get it, the one acknowledge that Christ was innocent of the charge which they had brought against Him, therefore acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ the son of he Living God, and asking Him to remember him when He came into kingdom” the other did not acknowledge Jesus as the Christ the son of the Living God, and raled against him Therefore the Lord hAd pity on him that said he deserved his punishment , was repentant and grante d him his prayer or request, whereas the other Christ did not answer him there is the difference . the heart of one was repentant and acknowledge christ as Lord, the other reviled Him and was unrepentant. So one the Lord considered worthy the other He did not.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Are you done?……Do you think you’ve REDEEMED YOURSELF FROM “TELLING LIES”??

            Again, I will repeat for the HARD OF HEARING……

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            guess what I dont want to get what you are telling me, because you are rude, obnoxious, and I am not deaf so I dont need to be yelled at. when the thief said he deserved his punishment did he not admit his wrong doing? you dont get it, He admitted that he had done wrong, and therefore was punished, how dense are you? the other Christ did not promise him that he would be with him in paradise, the one that asked for mercy the Lord answered and said Today you shall be with me in paradise.’ remember if you know the Lord, His Word will dwell in you, May the Lord be merciful to you and give you peace, as our Lord is also the prince of peace. stop shouting and ask the Lord for a quiet restfull spirit

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Again, I will REPEAT…

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?

            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.

            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.

            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.

            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            guess what I dont want to get it, you are rude obnoxious and I dont think you know our Lord and savior Christ Jesus he would rebuke you for yelling at me, and since if I am wrong would He not admonish me Himself, whom do you think you are? the thief on the cross showed compassion towards the Lord by asking the other thief to stay quiet, while our Lord was suffering on the cross, as the other was raling and ranting at our Lord while He was suffering, the same as you do, so the thief acknowledged that he was a sinner deserving of his punishment and asked the lord to remember him, when He came into His kingdom, He believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the Life, as why would he ask the Lord to remember him, when He came into His kingdom? the other did not repent but instead reviled our Lord the Lord did not promise him His heavenly kingdom either, this thief would stil have to answer to the Lord at the resurrection whereas the other is passed from death into eternal life, Romans 8 verse `1

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            You think you are giving me a “revelation” about yourself?
            I already KNOW “You Don’t Want To Get It”…..you admitted that in your FIRST RESPONSE.
            And now, it has taken you “TWO DAYS” to respond with MORE NONSENSE.

            By YOU “attacking Me” does not give any CREDENCE to the BS you’ve been spreading around, and calling it “Scripture”.
            I’ve asked you CONSTANTLY to “Show Me WHERE THAT IS WRITTEN”….you have yet to ANSWER anything I’ve asked you “SCRIPTURALY”….instead you keep “CHANGING THE SUBJECT”, rather than answer a “Straight Question”.

            Obviously, you are NOT ABLE TO ANSWER IT, while ADMITTING “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………that’s not a problem that “I’M HAVING”, that’s strictly YOUR PROBLEM.

            What INSULTS ME ABOUT YOU IS……that “You Tell Others WHAT TO DO”, but, in your own admission, YOU REFUSE TO LISTEN TO OTHERS…….that makes YOU a “DICTATOR”, as well as a LIAR.

            Say whatever you want about “ME”…..it changes NOTHING about YOU.

            I will let my words to you “SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES”…..it’s TOO BAD that “YOU DON’T WANT TO GET IT”………but, you should SHUT UP YOURSELF TOO.
            If all you want to do is “DICTATE”, and refuse to “LISTEN”, then you are nothing but a FRAUD, which I have PROVED way beyond all the NONSENSE that you’ve been spewing out.

            You are the “FALSE TEACHER” that Jesus WARNED US ABOUT, and nothing you have said has changed any of that.

            Spend another TWO DAYS thinking about that one too, you FRAUD!!!

            Oh, and as far as “TONI NOT OBJECTING TO YOU SAYING WHAT YOU SAID”…..I suggest that you TAKE A LOOK AT “WHO SHE UPVOTED”……it surely WASN’T YOU – it was ME!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            you are nuts I am not trying to convert you like you think you are the cats meow, and quit yelling I am not deaf, you are obnoxious and trying to scare me in believing like you, you should be ashamed you sure dont follow in the saviour’s footsteps, by yelling and screaming and going ballistic, The Lord knows my heart, and also knows that I think you are a basket case, and if Toni thumbs you up well does that make your day? I pity you, Repent of your bullying. Jesus warned about the leaven of the pharisees. You should really study the Bible more it was Paul that warned about false teachers. Go and read Timothy and also Peter who warned. Christ came to save and to call Israel to repentance. now go and do some studying and ask the Lord to reveal His Holy Word to you, so that His Word will come into remembrance, as the Lord weighs the hearts of mankind.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Where did I ONCE “TRY TO CONVERT YOU”????

            The ONLY THING I asked you to do was ADMIT YOUR ERROR, which to date YOU REFUSE TO DO.

            You keep saying “WE ARE WORTHY OF JESUS”.
            I keep saying WE ARE “NOT” WORTHY OF JESUS.

            There is only ONE PERSON WITH A PROBLEM HERE, and – THAT IS YOU!!!!
            If you think I’m the “CAT’S MEOW” (your words, not mine), THEN THAT’S JUST ANOTHER “PROBLEM YOU HAVE – NOT ME!!!

            Just admit YOU WERE WRONG??

            Don’t you have ANY HUMILITY???

            Guess not….because YOU ARE “WORTHY”, and you are “PERFECT”.

            Take a walk, you PHONEY FALSE TEACHER!!!

          • Sientje Seinen

            Now you even twist my word, you are a devil, as I said “pray that you will be worthy of Him` God`s saving grace you write that i said we were worthy of Him, a big difference, and once I again I didnt say I thought you were the cat`s meow, you yourself think that by your actions. why dont you learn to read properly before you jump to conclusions, you are a big jerk that is puffed up with your own conceit. you dont know the meaning of humility because you act as if you believe you are worthy of Christ saving grace, then why is that grace not evident in the way you talk. Never said I was perfect, that wasnt what I said either, you sure are good at twisting people`s word, want me to tell what I think, you are one of those people who are guilty of something and then try to project the guilt on someone else, confess your own sins, and let me confess mine, you are not my father confessor, you would be the last person I would confess to, Christ Jesus if my high priest on high who intercedes for me with my heavenly father. and it is none of you business, and believe what you will about me but I think you are a big noisy jerk, how many people have you led astray.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Do you want some “Cheese” with all that WHINE??

            In your own words….
            “PRAY TO BE FOUND WORTHY OF JESUS CHRIST”.

            You’re really going to need a lot of those PRAYERS.

            I’m done talking to a 3 Year Old that can’t admit their own ERRORS, but, doesn’t SHY AWAY from “Pointing Out What YOU believe To Be Other People’s Iniquity”.

            Like I said, time & time again….YOU’RE NOTHING BUT A HYPOCRITICAL FRAUD, AND FALSE TEACHER.
            You’re not even WORTHY to be called “Teacher”.
            There is only ONE TEACHER – and, you aren’t HIM.
            Live with it.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Finally, and lastly, I will say to you the same thing that God has said throughout the entire Bible.

            It is NOT “my opinion” – it is God’s Holy Word….

            Jeremiah 7:23

            “but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you.”.

            It really isn’t that HARD, is it?

            It is the LORD that we must LISTEN TO, and OBEY.

            We have a BIBLE to “Read For Ourselves” what God WANTS US TO DO.

            The Word Of God is NOT DIFFERENT for YOU than it is FOR ME.

            It is for EVERYONE.

            God CLEARLY TOLD THE ISRAELITE’S these words which SETTLE this entire matter…..

            Ezekiel 36:32

            I want you to know that I am “not doing this for your sake”, declares the Sovereign Lord. “Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct”, people of Israel!

            ——————————————–

            And what did God “DO” for “His Name’s Sake”????? Which was NOT for “our sake”??

            HE SENT US HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, BECAUSE “WE” ARE NOT WORTHY.
            God CLEARLY says – “BE ASHAMED AND DISGRACED FOR YOUR CONDUCT”!!!

            That hardly sounds like WE ARE WORTHY of anything – DOES IT??

            Pray if you want to….stay in the spirit of “listening to His voice”.
            But, make NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS….the only thing “we are worthy of is God’s Punishment”.
            And, for “His Name’s Sake”, God is WILLING TO BE MERCIFUL.

            Not because of “OUR SAKE”, or anything “WE’VE DONE”.

            If you don’t KNOW THIS, then you don’t know anything.

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        Whoa! Not everyone who believes in Christ does so because their parents did: a lot of us (including the early Christians, who were Jews) came to faith on our own. Careful with sweeping generalizations.

        And what about all the atheists who are that way because their parents were? Works both ways. 😉

  • Marvels of life

    Definition of Christian:

    1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
    2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
    3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus, especially in showing concern for others.
    4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
    1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
    2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

    What the Bible says about Christian’s
    1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen
    with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this
    we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
    2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to
    you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
    3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have
    fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his
    Son, Jesus Christ.
    4We write this to make our joy complete.

    Light and Darkness, Sin and Forgiveness

    5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
    6If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
    7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with
    one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
    8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
    10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

    I would like to emphasize to this ‘minister’ this sentence: And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

  • j40bob

    Sigh.

  • Lily

    The Presbyterians should fire and defrock him. What a con artist.

  • malinda

    How do you preach Jesus, without believeing in GOD the Father of JESUS

  • Bingo

    Denying God is denying Jesus Christ, so of course he not a Christian.

    • Sientje Seinen

      true as many have a god of their own making, There is God the Father, Christ the Son and the Holy spirit which work together for the redemption of mankind.

  • Peytwan

    God dangit, people, let it go! This doesn’t concern you. It’s none of your business whether he’s a true christian or not, or whether I’m a christian or not, or whether anybody is any religion or atheist or anything! That’s between them and their maker, and your judging, better-than-you, shaming comments and passive aggressive bible quotes are accomplishing nothing but making people feel like crap. I get that the bible says to go and make more disciples, but that doesn’t mean antagonize and treat people unfairly until they agree with your beliefs. That is sooo not the way to go about this! If someone is happy with their religion, then there is absolutely no reason to get all in their business and shame them about it. I can see giving being sweet and introducing them to your religion or whatever, but if they’re not interest, then let them be. And those of you who are actually offended by this are ridiculous, because this man has done nothing offensive whatsoever. That’s like me being offended because some man who I’ve never met and know nothing about doesn’t believe in unicorns.

    • Toni Foster

      Sorry to rain on your parade BUT, yes it most certainly DOES concern us. He has got a following that he is able to lie to constantly and they believe what he says emphatically. He has all the makings of another David Koresh or Jim Jones. Obviously, anyone who would dare to attend after knowing that he is lying through his teeth, are weak minded and don’t know how to seek the truth themselves. These are people in OUR society…you and I live on the same planet with them. So YES !!!! It does concern us. As for doing” nothing wrong or offensive” ummm ….the guy is drawing followers in under the guise of christianity and then denying the cross and Christ (God) altogether. Common sense calls this the old ‘bait and switch’ routine…but because he uses God to do this…he is nothing more than a tool used by satan to draw people away from Christ and the Truth. No one HAS to believe in God…BUT, they will, I can guarantee that, when he returns.

  • Michelle Murray

    Kind of an Oxymoron to call one’s self Christian and Deny Christ!! I feel sorry for him on judgment day!! May His Eye’s be opened and may he repent before that day comes!

  • Faithwalker

    “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers” 2 Corinthians 4:4, and John Shuck is definitely walking and living as an unbeliever of the Triune God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. However, its not to late for him because “God”s desire is that no one perish but that all come to repentance” 2 Peter 3:9.

  • US_POLICESTATE

    So basically he’s anti-Christian while trying to say that other people are wrong for pointing out that he denies the very belief that makes you Christian? Hard to believe this is real, but the world is so full of lunatics and worse that truth is often stranger than fiction.

  • John D Messer

    in the new testament we are told that there will be antichrist, not one, but many, this is one

  • Anna Rose

    He has no clue as to what a Christian really is and calling himself a “Christian” when he is really an Atheist is deliberately deceptive! Methinks he wants to continue raking in the bucks from his congregation and if they are smart his congregation will check on where their donations are going. I stand corrected: If his congregation were actually “smart” they wouldn’t be there in the first place.

  • Sandra L. Akes Sedgwick

    to be a christian you have to believe in god ! You have to believe God sent Jesus to die on the cross so your sins could be forgiven. You also have to ask Jesus into your heart. I can’t believe he thinks he’s a christian and don’t believe this. Fool I tell you. Leading alot of people down the road to hell.

  • Horatio Hornblower

    worthless postmodern hyper identity absurdity

  • An Dliodoir

    His argument is that “I am anything that I say I am because we each define our own reality outside objective understanding.” Thus, in his world, I can say, I am a muslim who doesn’t believe in anything Mohammed said while wearking a yarmulke, studying the torah and going to synagogue every Friday night. Or. . .I am from Mars and have three heads. In his world there is no objective reality and thus anything he says about himself is true and beyond question. . .for him. And he demands that others respect his warped reality and play along with the lies he tells himself. The bottom line is that Christian has a definition and requires a minimum set of beliefs. He does not meet the definition of Christian. I can call myself the City of Paris. . .but that doesn’t mean I am the City of Paris.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      ROTFL! You’ve just done a superb job of illustrating what relativism and postmodernism are all about. {thumbs up}

  • Reg Borrow

    A person that calls himself a Christian and not believe in Jesus Christ or the Bible is called Cognitive Dissonance.

    https://www.facebook.com/170742302956299/photos/a.174333459263850.40012.170742302956299/576298672400658/?type=3&theater

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Mmmnnn, suffering from cognitive dissonance, yes.

  • D.Kermott

    I would like to offend him again: He is not a Christian.

  • old hockey fan

    How can he call himself a Christian when he does not believe in the Father how can he take the Son’s followers name?

  • Steven Reed

    Sounds like he’s an atheist. Sir you are not a christian with those views. But that’s the current state of the Presbyterian church, sodomy and godlessness are the norm.
    Come out of her my people.
    r8it-now.com

  • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

    Presbyterianism is a branch of Christian Reformed Protestantism which traces its origins to the British Isles. Presbyterian churches derive their name from the presbyterianform of church GOVERNMENT, which is government by representative ASSEMBLIES OF ELDERS. Many Reformed churches are organized this way, but the word “Presbyterian,” when capitalized, is often applied uniquely to the churches that trace their roots to the Scottish and English churches that bore that name and English POLITICAL GROUPS that formed during the English Civil War.[2] Presbyterian theology typically emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the authority of the Scriptures, and the necessity of grace through faith in Christ. Presbyterian church government was ensured in Scotland by the Acts of Union in 1707[3] which created the kingdom of Great Britain. In fact, most Presbyterians found in England can trace a Scottish connection, and the Presbyterian denomination was also taken to North America mostly by Scots and Scots-Irish (Scotch-Irish American) immigrants. The Presbyterian denominations in Scotland hold to the theology of JOHN CALVIN and his immediate successors, although there is a range of theological views within contemporary Presbyterianism.

    Local congregations of churches which use presbyterian polity are governed by sessions made up of representatives of the congregation (elders); a conciliar approach which is found at other levels of decision-making (presbytery, synod and general assembly).

    The roots of Presbyterianism lie in the European Reformation of the 16th century; the example of John Calvin’s Geneva being particularly influential. Most Reformed churches who trace their history back to Scotland are either presbyterian or congregationalist in GOVERNMENT. In the twentieth century, some Presbyterians played an important role in the Ecumenical Movement, including the World Council of Churches. Many Presbyterian denominations have found ways of working together with other Reformed denominations and Christians of other traditions, especially in the World Communion of Reformed Churches. Some Presbyterian churches have entered into unions with other churches, such as Congregationalists, Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists.

    AS FOR “ME”……I WOULDN’T PUT “ALL MY FAITH IN A BUNCH OF ELDERS”, WHO RULE WITH AN “IRON FIST”.
    I’D MUCH RATHER BE RULED BY THE “WORD OF GOD”, AND NOT BY “MEN”, OR, THEIR “DOCTRINES”.

    • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

      Government

      Main article: Presbyterian church governance

      The Ordination of Elders in a Scottish Kirk, by John Henry Lorimer, 1891. National Gallery of Scotland.

      Presbyterian government is by councils (known as courts) of elders. Teaching and ruling elders are ordained and convene in the lowest council known as a session or consistory responsible for the DISCIPLINE, nurture, and mission of the local congregation. Teaching elders (pastors) have responsibility for teaching, worship, and performing sacraments. Pastors are called by individual congregations. A congregation issues a call for the pastor’s service, but this call must be ratified by the local presbytery.

      Ruling elders are usually laymen (and laywomen in some denominations) who are elected by the congregation and ordained to serve with the teaching elders, assuming responsibility for nurture and leadership of the congregation. Often, especially in larger congregations, the elders delegate the practicalities of buildings, finance, and temporal ministry to the needy in the congregation to a distinct group of officers (sometimes called deacons, which are ordained in some denominations). This group may variously be known as a “Deacon Board”, “Board of Deacons” “Diaconate”, or “Deacons’ Court”. These are sometimes known as “presbyters” to the full congregation.

      Above the sessions exist presbyteries, which have area responsibilities. These are composed of teaching elders and ruling elders from each of the constituent congregations. The presbytery sends representatives to a broader regional or national assembly, generally known as the General Assembly, although an intermediate level of a synod sometimes exists. This congregation / presbytery / synod / general assembly schema is based on the historical structure of the larger Presbyterian churches, such as the Church of Scotland or the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.); some bodies, such as the Presbyterian Church in America and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, skip one of the steps between congregation and General Assembly, and usually the step skipped is the Synod. The Church of Scotland has now abolished the Synod.[citation needed]

      Presbyterian governance is practiced by Presbyterian denominations and also by many other Reformed churches.

  • Zerubbabel

    This is why Christianity established creeds so early on. They are the measure of whether someone is or is not a Christian and I can’t think of a single one he meets. So offended or not, he isn’t a Christian.

  • Psygn

    Freedom of religion is awesome!

  • MeanieHead

    The guy is from liberal lalaland of Oregon. I’m surprised he hasn’t renamed himself something like Earthen Eddie or Father Mulch or something equally ridiculous.

  • xaade

    “And when times change and these beliefs are no longer credible”

    credible – able to be believed; convincing.
    Capable of persuading people that something will happen or be successful: a credible threat

    There’s
    only two ways of looking at this. Either something changed that altered
    the truth of the Bible such that it is not credible. Meaning the words
    literally changed. (Like someone giving a different testimony on a
    different day). The Bible is no longer effective in causing people to
    believe. Meaning it no longer has the backing that it once had. Meaning
    that God changed and is no longer powerful (like God becoming weak or
    old).

    Or,
    what he means to say is that the beliefs are no longer credible to
    himself, as a person. Meaning that his mindset changed and the ideas in
    the Bible are no longer conformant to his worldview, due to new
    information arriving. Which means that he no longer shares a mindset
    conformant to Christian beliefs.

    What
    I’m trying to say, is that either God became weaker suddenly, the words
    of the Bible recently changed within his lifespan, or he is no longer a
    Christian.

    Since
    the previous two possibilities are contradictory to evidence (God has
    not changed, and the words of the bible haven’t changed since KJV), he’s
    no longer a Christian.

    He admitted as much when he said, “when times change”.

  • https://www.facebook.com/Jasonstephens25 Jason Stephens

    This is a gross mockery of God, His Word, and His church (the bride of Christ purchased by His blood). That man needs to be disciplined and dealt with immediately. That would actually be the most loving thing to do rather than to affirm his sin and hypocrisy. As someone who loves Jesus Christ, I hate the mockery this man makes of Him and he will be even more accountable on the day of judgment. Pray for this man that God might grant him repentance and that he might awaken from his stupor.

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      That whole denomination is apostate, Jason: they won’t “discipline” him.

  • WARIII

    Sorry Sir, to be a Christian you must be a follower of Jesus Christ(who IS God). Standing in a church does not make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car!

  • charles freeman

    In the end times there will be a falling away of the faithful. It is destined to happen. We will also hear from many false profits, teaching a false gospel to those desperate for salvation. Unfortunately, this “pastor” is one of them, and no doubt many will flock to his church to hear what they want to hear, that everything is OK, everyone will be saved no matter what they’re lifestyle or behavior is. By the way, the national Presbyterian Church is officially splitting due to this kind of false teaching. What is tragic is that this false minister will lead many on the road to perdition. Hell is hot and it is forever. American Heritage Dictionary: Christian – professing Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on his teachings. How can one call himself a Christian and not have faith in Christ’s existence?

  • kitty

    If you are an atheist..say so! But understand what is being said here! I am not going to join your group..then disavow EVERYTHING your group espouses…and still expect you to define me by your group! What a spoiled child…to believe that he can have his cake and eat it too! But alas..thus is todays popular culture!

  • Travis McCabe

    you can not take Christ out of CHRISTianity and call your self a christian

  • Travis Willard

    What an upside down idiotic world that we are living in!

  • lissa

    Only Jesus can reveal God as Father to a person. I pray John gets to know God as Father before he dies. Many people have Gods but Jesus came to reveal Him as Father. If John knew Him as Father he wouldn’t be doing and saying these things. Even the elect will be deceived in the last days.

  • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
    Psalm 14:1

  • BRIAN HUGH GRIFFITH

    The God That Nobody Hates – Modern Day Jesus
    tinysa.com/sermon/9414036273

    The Christ Of The Bible Divides – Do You Follow Him?
    tinysa.com/sermon/914141720103

    The World Hates Christ
    tinysa.com/sermon/122712254310

    The Evolution of Pop Culture Christianity
    tinysa.com/sermon/102914233270

  • Geoffrey Wanjala Munialo

    John
    Shuck the named Presbyterian minister is in the first place not a
    minister of Christ Jesus. Indeed one can call themselves a minister, and
    in this case not a minister of the Church of Jesus Christ – the
    catholic church that is composed of the believers who were before us and
    gone before us. These are the same ones’ who passed this faith to us
    that we are to contend for. Further, it is a fact that John Shuck, is
    someone who embraced religion as such he as all the others before him
    who took such a route will always seek to make relevant their religion.
    Had he had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ then he would be
    talking differently. This is a person who does not understand that God
    is not a cultural thinking or a myth. When he talks of Jesus being
    historical and his works legends which I think he meant myths, proves
    that he is not a history student or chooses to ignore the obvious in
    order to live as he pleases. He is out of touch with reality and needs
    to see the movie, God’s Not Dead.
    Or could he be like that professor who had a bone to grind with God
    only to find out that he was the one on the wrong? John Shuck look at
    your inner self and see whats there. Am sure thats what is informing
    your belief. As for being told you are not a Christian, you don’t need
    to be angry, for the disciples of Christ were first called Christian in
    Antioch. Learn and note this, they believed in the claims of Jesus, they
    modeled after him, therefore its clear that if you don’t follow that
    way, you don’t have any business being angry at being told you are not a
    CHRISTIAN!! You can not claim a stake in what you don’t have a
    share!!! Get the share and then you can claim your stake legitimately.

  • Bishop J.D. Sparks

    Please forward this to John Shuck, maybe he will reconsider his beliefs: http://www.touchingheavenministries.com/2015/03/23/the-warning/

  • Motherof2inWA

    A Christian is a “follower of Christ”, so how could he possibly be a Christian when He doesn’t even believe that God exists; Christ being God’s only begotten son. Going to have a BIG surprise when he stands before the God he denies exists. And he definitely WON’T like where he’s going from there!!

  • KingdomPassion

    Hmm having ones cake and eating it too.

  • Lance Hillyer

    Jesus said Unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins.

    • Frank Cartwright

      what if you die as an infant? or in a part of the world not yet exposed to Christianity?

      • Lance Hillyer

        All that the Father gives me will come to Me and he who comes to me I will in no wise cast out. I’m more concerned about you. Tell me, what part of the world has not been exposed to Christianity? God doesn’t judge you for what you don’t know but for what you do know and you know God exists.

        • Frank Cartwright

          all the people from the rest of the planet NOT in the middle east when the religion was created (in the bronze age) by the people there.there was no way they(the rest of the world) could know at that time.imagine the huge numbers they lived and died not hearing it.or the people born before it’s invention.makes you wonder why didn’t god appear,or influence man,however the fable goes to all the world.he is ALL powerful so he could have appeared to all everywhere,why didn’t god? especially the middle east with high illiteracy rates at that time,why not china,more advanced and could have spread it faster perhaps.what ofplace where the government suppresses the word and people cannot get it(north korea).p.s i do not know any god exists and neither do you.

          • Lance Hillyer

            So you believe nothing created something? That’s a scientific impossibility. And no. I do know Gid exists and so do you. I’m just not suppressing it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            i said why not reveal ones self to all? not just a small group of people.

          • Lance Hillyer

            For since the Creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Whoa, Frank. I know God exists merely by looking at the marvels of His Creation: nature, our bodies, our ability to think and use language, etc. All of that just SHOUTS “Creator!” As Nobel Prize winner Francis Crick (co-discoverer of DNA) put it: “You would
            be more likely to assemble a fully functioning and flying jumbo jet by
            passing a hurricane through a junk yard than you would be to assemble
            the DNA molecule by chance. In any kind of primeval soup in 5 or 600
            million years, it’s just not possible.”

            Even an aborigine in the jungle, if he saw a downed jetliner (after a crash), he’d know that it had been constructed by a mind. Things don’t just get here—especially with the kind of incredible design we see all over in nature (science is a wonderful tool for demonstrating the amazing mind behind it all)—willy nilly: it’s obvious they’ve been designed by a mind-blowing mind. The Creation is His open air art gallery.

          • Frank Cartwright

            right out of the gate,why do you say “HE”? if females create life more so than males,wouldn’t make sense to think(if there is a creator)it would be female? of course the real answer is all religions were started by the stronger,more ruthless men,why would god speak to the more violent and corrupt prone,MEN that suppressed (still) females? first off, even if there were a creator(and i never said there cannot be) it it would not be the silly one thought up by primitive men,john smith or L ron hubbard! in other words, ANY religious version.major religions (especially the church) was created to control minds through fear(usually of death) and to produce guilt and also answer mysterious events,that at that time,were not answered,i.e. if there was a drought it was considered, punishment from a god.are the things around me,incredible awe inspiring and much of it beautiful? you bet! is reality a bunch of trillions upon trillions of hit or miss randomness? or is all planned? if so,why did over 99% of species on earth become extinct? did your god hate the species later on? or does she invent them then let what happens, happen?

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            “i do not know any god exists and neither do you” vs. “even if there were a creator (and i never said there cannot be)” ??? Disconnect here at best, contradiction at worst.

            God reveals Himself to mankind as “He” and came in the flesh as a man, not a woman. Nor can a female create life without the sperm from a man. So both are necessary.

            If we want to understand Christianity, we need to turn to its primary document, the Bible itself. There we find that, no, God does not “hate the species later on,” on the contrary, He eventually DIES for the species, and resurrects, so the species can also participate in the New Life (by trusting in Jesus as Savior and Lord). In the new heaven and the new earth, there will be no death or suffering or predation (“the lion will lie with the lamb”).

            God was not “thought up” by man, but the other way around. We are His idea.

            As for species extinction, there are various reasons: http://tinyurl.com/peps495.

      • Lance Hillyer

        God doesn’t judge you for what you don’t know but for what you do know and you know God exists.

  • Margie Pa

    This literally makes me sick to my stomach! Hell fire sure has a place reserved for such thinking!

    • Frank Cartwright

      wow what a psycho!

  • QuestGirl

    There we have it. God has left the building. I have always known God does not care much for bricks and mortor.

    “…remarked in a recent article that he is offended by those who assert that he is not a Christian.” If he is offended by his own belief, then he knows he is wrong.

  • QuestGirl

    “…remarked in a recent article that he is offended by those who assert that he is not a Christian.”

    Since he is offended by his own beliefs, then he knows he is wrong.

  • http://www.scootervanneuter.com/ Scooter Van Neuter

    It’s official – we’ve officially entered the Twilight Zone when a godless mouth-breather leading people to Hell like this moron remains employed by one of the largest (former) “Christian” churches in America. God help us.

  • 4EVERu

    Mr. Shuck, demonstrates the exact reason we are to know the truth so that we can speak the truth. This is why God has made His word available to each and everyone of us so that we can know what He says, so that we can follow His direction, will, purpose, and plan. It takes a lifetime to learn the whole counsel of God, but what better way to spend a lifetime learning and applying the will of God? So when you see or hear people talk like Mr. Shuck, you immediately know where the talk comes from. It’s not our place to say whether or not he will go to heaven or hell, because we don’t know if he truly believes in Christ or not. But, God does, and it is Christ who will be the judge of that.My prayer is that all men will by faith receive the saving grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and be saved, in Christ’s name, amen. This is God’s desire 1 Tim 2: 3-4.

    • Frank Cartwright

      what about the people many years ago that died before they heard the word of your god? there was no internet, t.v.,radios or newspapers. i am sure many went to their graves not knowing,did they go to hell? what about babies that did not hear or accept? “follow His direction, will, purpose, and plan.” ___ i thought that “free will” was the most important gift from god,that is what all my Christian friends tell me.where is it according to your statement? “but what better way to spend a lifetime learning and applying the will of God?”___i don’t know,how about helping others? learning about other subjects and religions? enjoying times with friends and families? pursuing hobbies? there are plenty of better ways.”It’s not our place to say whether or not he will go to heaven or hell,
      because we don’t know if he truly believes in Christ or not.”___it is also not anyone’s place to say because your faith teaches,non judgement of others,god’s job.

      • 4EVERu

        Your friends can’t help you to understand if you refuse to listen to them. No, those who have not heard and babies who have no way of understanding do not go to hell. It’s those who hear and REJECT the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior that are sent to hell. God doesn’t send anyone to hell, they send themselves because they refuse to accept Christ who God sent to the earth to die for all mankind so that they could be saved John 3:16. God wants us to enjoy life doing all those things you described. I wrote about Mr. Shuck to express the fact that he is the kind of people to avoid. For you to even begin to understand the Father, the Son, or the Spirit you first need to be saved. And that is simply by stating, Father, I am a sinner, I believe Christ died on the cross and was raised in the third day by your power, and I accept your saving grace. You don’t have to walk down an isle, give money, be baptized. A simple confession as I wrote will do. At that very moment all three members take up residence in you. Yes, we all have a choice (volition) we can accept or reject God. I hope and pray you will make the choice to accept Christ and receive eternal life. Once you have it you can never lose it. The joy I’m talking about is discovering what the Bible means and learning how to apply Bible doctrine to my life. I can see the huge difference it has made.

        • Frank Cartwright

          okay, if babies and those that did not hear(of your god) do not go to hell,where do they go? heaven? if so,what is the point of human life(never mind other species) if you do not need the word of god to go to heaven,no tests,no temptation(at least for the infant) no acceptance your religion falls flat on it’s face.sorry your point is not a logical or fair one.god sent christ,okay, that is ONE SACRIFICE! how many humans suffered as much for not disowning the christian god? a lot more than one! what about ALL human and animal suffering since time began till(if ever) it ends? trillions upon trillions that suffer terribly for lifetimes! not just days like christ supposedly did.in comparison,not really much of a sacrifice at all.i also always wondered,and no one can answer,TO WHOM DID GOD SEND JESUS FOR FORGIVENESS? god and christ are the same!!!!! even if jesus was a human form,he was still the SAME BEING (triune,1=3) it is like asking your self to forgive yourself!!!

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Frank, all of us fall short of the perfection demanded by God. ALL of us. Only Jesus fulfilled that perfection FOR us.

            Again, there’s a lot here to try to cover, but allow me to cite what God says in His word about the suffering of the whole Creation (humans, animals) from Romans 8:

            “For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. [referring to the Day that He restores all perfection to the universe]

            20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

            21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

            22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

          • Frank Cartwright

            well then, why did not god create us as perfect beings? surely an all powerful being could design the perfect human or animal,if this was her great wish.she can(as far as the fable goes) make any reality she wants too.as far as you verses,please read some of mine,showing a very cruel,vicious,unforgiving,petty,jealous,creator,not my choice of a father or mother imagined figure.take care

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Where are the verses you’re referring to, Frank? You didn’t list any. (Remember that verses have to be read in context.)

            As to why He did not create us perfect, He did, actually. But we aren’t designed as automatons, so we have the ability to choose. The first parents chose wrong there on that one single, simple commandment.

          • Frank Cartwright

            http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2008/12/richard-dawkins-god-of-old-testament.html ___ there are a plethora of verses!___ we are not perfect,we have genetic abnormalities (body and mind) that torture us for life,we are cruel and apathetic,dishonest,that is not my idea of perfection.automatons are people that have no free thought and consequently actions.the perfect example of all religious followers. the non believers are the true non-automatons.adam and eve not real.even if it were, what does it say of god? she puts an innocent,naive couple against a sly,intelligent devil in disguise,not very fair.in addition being omniscient god knew in advance! why act surprised and judge them harshly!? sounds like a fixed game if there ever was one! if you put your 12 yr old in a room and tell her to eat all the pies you want except for the cherry,and she did (eat the cherry pie),after being tempted by a stranger disguised as a family figure,saying your dad was just kidding around, would that be enough of a crime to be banished from your home and love? is that the mercy and forgiveness (shown by god) the chrisitans love to spout out constantly. would you make her and all her descendants (who had zero knowledge or consent) if so,you are a terrible person and father! just like a god.

          • Elijah Mann

            He did create us as perfect beings Frank, Adam and Eve were perfect with free will and walked together in the garden in the cool of the day with G-d. . G-d said not to do one thing ONLY and that was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. BUT because G-d created man with free will, Eve got bambuzled and disobeyed and Adam stuck by her and joined her (let’s face it a naked woman with food who could resist..) and that was the fall of man. We were created perfect but with free will G-d did not want to commune with robots.

          • Frank Cartwright

            Elijah,ask your self this question if you knew in advance the actions of adam and eve(god is omniscient) how could you call “don’t eat the apple” a TEST? it was not! it was a forgone conclusion or i like to say,a SETUP BY A SICK GOD.now i am smart enough to know that was just a fable,but even if i used you illogical faith,it is obviously unfair and or false.we do not have free will just an illusion like adam and eve.robots are people that must obey every letter of an imagined god,not ones that are smart enough to know it is all fairy tales for the weak.

  • Snake

    WOw….America….a country that I just don’t get…

  • LASCHAL

    So he denies “Christ” and is offended by not being recognized as a “Christian”; That is just foolishness; he is desperate for attention and some relevancy; the way he choose to achieve it is sad….

  • Gun_Slinger

    Do get back to us say after you stand before the Great White Throne Judgment and let us know how your position works out for you. And do be quick about it as what time you would have between your judgment and your sentencing will be somewhat brief.

    • Frank Cartwright

      boy! judgement? sentencing? is this the court house or the place where a loving,forgiving god exists?

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        Yes, He’s loving and forgiving, but on His own terms: the death of His son in our stead. Jesus over and over cites the Scriptures in His debates with the Pharisees and with Satan. He took Scripture VERY seriously, calling it the WORD of God that can not be broken. And Scripture talks a lot about the Judgment Day. But also about our being acquitted when we place our trust in Jesus’ work on the Cross and in His resurrection (which sealed our justification before God).

        Frank, do an experiment: read the Bible from cover to cover and see what *IT* says about a lot of your questions. You could start with the Gospel of John as the “decoder” book for the whole volume. The Bible is the touchstone for spiritual truth, as opposed to whatever traditions of men you were stifled with in your 30+ years in Catholicism.

        • Frank Cartwright

          “the death of His son in our stead”. that is just a non proven story from your faith,non believers do not believe jesus was the son of any divine being. Jesus Said that He Would Return in the First Century It seems that every generation
          of Christians believes that the end of the world and the return of Jesus
          will happen during their lifetimes. The first prediction of this sort that
          I can find is from Saint Paul himself, in his letters, in 1st Thessalonians
          Chapter 4, when he predicts the prompt return of Jesus at a time when “…we
          also … are still alive.” All you have to do is ask a Christian if Jesus will return during their lifetimes. People
          are taught by their priests and pastors that Jesus is “coming quickly”,
          and that they should be prepared, because he might pop up at any moment.
          If Jesus said he would be returning “quickly”, and he said that 2000
          years ago, what exactly is going on here? Do we have any information as
          to when
          the writers of the New Testament foretold the return of Jesus? Actually, we
          have very good information on that. We have nearly precise information.
          There is scriptural evidence that those who wrote about Jesus intended for
          him to come back during the lifetimes of those who first followed him. That’s
          right… in the First Century.
          First, let us look at
          the gospel of Mark, chapter 13. (When I reference
          the gospels, I will refer to them as “Mark” and “Matthew”,
          even though these labels were attached to those texts by the Early Church–
          the books are actually anonymous and no one knows who the true authors are).
          In this chapter, Jesus speaks of a “tribulation”, nation rising
          against nation, earthquakes, and the coming of false Christs and false prophets,
          the stars falling from the sky, and the coming of the Son of Man “in
          the clouds with great power and glory”. Then, in verse 30, he tells when
          this will happen. “Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
          not pass, till all these things be done.”
          Second, let us look at
          Matthew (copied from Mark), which contains the same story. The same earthquakes,
          false prophets, darkening sun, falling stars, etc., and the return of the
          Son of Man, “coming in the clouds with of heaven with power and great
          glory.” And then in verse 34, he says when to look for all of this commotion:
          “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these
          things be fulfilled.” Pretty conclusive.
          Now, there is a
          rebuttal to this interpretation. It can be found, among other places, in some
          evangelistic bibles as a footnote in Matthew and Mark.
          “The
          word “Generation”, though commonly used in scripture to those living at
          one time, could not mean here those who are alive at the time of Christ,
          as none of these things, i.e. the worldwide preaching of the kingdom, the
          tribulation, the return of the Lord in visible glory, and the regathering
          of the elect– occurred then. The expression “this generation” here may
          mean the future generation which will endure the tribulation and see the
          signs. Or it may be used in the sense of race or family, meaning the nation
          of Israel or the Christians will be preserved until these things take place.”
          This apologist
          basically
          says: “It can’t mean those living at the time of Jesus, because he
          would not have said that”. They say that “this generation” means the
          generation
          that’s alive during the tribulations. Let us take a good look at
          this “explanation”.
          First, the claim that generation could mean race, family, or the
          nation or
          tribe of Israel.
          What are the Greek words for Nation, Tribe, Family and Generation?
          Generation is “genea”, the root of genealogy. “Family” is “patria”. “Tribe”
          is “phule”. “Nation” is “ethnos”, as in ethnic. Next, we need to look up these
          words as they appear in the New Testament, and cross-reference the Greek words
          with the English words. I have done this. Every single occurrence for
          Nation that I looked up gave the word “ethnos”. Every single
          occurrence for Generation that I looked up gave the word “genea”. When
          the writers meant nation, they wrote ethnos. When they meant
          generation, they wrote genea. They were apparently very clear
          in this. They never used “patria” or “phule” in any of
          these instances. To prove his case, the evangelistic writer who wrote the
          “explanation” above must find one instance of the word nation
          translated from the Greek word genea. Furthermore, if the word genea
          could have been translated as nation, then why wouldn’t the translators
          have written it as nation? It would certainly have made more sense, if that’s
          what they intended, and they could have prevented a major theological problem.
          But that’s not what they wrote.
          So, the rationalization
          that the bible writers meant “the Nation of Israel” falls to the
          ground. But what about the other “explanation” that is sometimes
          offered, that Jesus was speaking about those people who would be witnessing
          the tribulations in future times? Did he mean that that future
          generation would not pass until all those things came to be?
          This rationalization fails
          as well. In the first place, Jesus does not say “that generation”,
          he says “this generation”. But in fairness, this is could
          be related to translation. Some have argued, ala Thomas Paine, that
          this sort of situation (the inability to accurately translate one language
          into another), is proof that the “Word of God” could never exist
          in print. Then again, the translation could be perfectly accurate. This is
          a thing that we can never know, however, since no original version of any
          of the gospels exist.
          But there is more positive
          proof than this. Jesus makes it clear that he is speaking about the current
          generation of people. In Matthew 24:4 when the disciples asked Jesus about
          the end of the world, he “answered and said unto THEM”, “Take heed
          that no man deceive you… ye shall hear of wars and rumors
          of wars… Ye shall see the abomination… etc.” He is clearly replying
          to them, telling them what they shall see. He says that THEY
          shall see these things. Read it for yourself. Then he concludes by saying:
          “THIS generation shall not pass” until he comes again. The evidence can
          be found in Mark chapter 13, starting from verse 5 onward. It is clear that
          he is speaking to his apostles, answering their inquiry. To say otherwise
          is to be dishonest.
          And yet there is something
          even stronger than this. The same story is related in Matthew chapter 16.
          Yet this time, Jesus does not use the word “generation”. He again describes
          how he will come in the glory of his father, with his angels, to judge men
          according to their works. Then he concludes by saying “Verily I say unto you,
          There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see
          the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
          That is the final nail
          in the coffin. Matt. 16:28 says there were some men standing there next to
          Jesus who will see his second coming, and it is totally clear that in Matthew
          24:34 and Mark 13:30, Jesus believed the end of the world would come during
          the lifetimes of his apostles. Jesus
          says so himself. He thought that he was going to be returning in the First
          Century. He said: “The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at
          hand.” (Mark 1:15) Similar statements are to be found in Mark 9:1; 13:30;
          Matthew 10:23; 23:29-36; and Luke 12:49-50. Jesus’ title of “Messiah”
          literally translated means “inaugurator of the end”.
          It is clear. There is
          no reason to doubt that the author of Mark wrote what he intended to write.
          Christian scholars claim that the book of Mark was written around the year
          60 C.E., 35 years after the alleged death of Jesus, and well within the lifetimes
          of any of his followers. Whoever wrote the text believed that the Messiah
          would return during his lifetime. And as Matthew was constructed from Mark
          some decades later, whoever wrote Matthew simply copied this same information.
          You must remember, also, one other thing. Christ never wrote a solitary word
          of the New Testament — not one word. There is an account that he once stooped
          and wrote something in the sand, but that has not been preserved. He never
          said: “Matthew, remember this. Mark, do not forget to put that down. Luke,
          be sure that in your gospel you have this. John, do not forget it.” Not
          one word. And it has always seemed to me that a being coming from another
          world, with a message of infinite importance to mankind, should at least
          have verified that message by his own signature. Is it not strange that
          not one word was written by Christ? Is it not strange that he gave no orders
          to have his words preserved — words upon which hung the salvation of a
          world? Why was nothing written? I will tell you.

          In my
          judgment they expected the end of the world in a few days. That generation
          was not to pass away until the heavens should be rolled up as a scroll,
          and until the earth should melt with fervent heat. That was their belief.
          They believed that the world was to be destroyed, and that there was to
          be another coming, and that the saints were then to govern the earth. And
          they even went so far among the apostles, as we frequently do now before
          election, as to divide out the offices in advance. This Testament, as it
          now is, was not written for hundreds of years after the apostles were dust.
          Many of the pretended facts depended upon the inaccuracy of legend, and
          for centuries these doctrines and stories were blown about by the inconstant
          winds. And when reduced to writing, some gentleman would write by the side
          of the passage his idea of it, and the next copyist would put that in as
          a part of the text. And, when it was mostly written, and the church got
          into trouble, and wanted a passage to help it out, one was interpolated
          to order. So that now it is among the easiest things in the world to pick
          out at least one hundred interpolations in the Testament. And I will pick
          some of them out before I get through.”

          In this case, the bible
          itself provides ample evidence that Jesus was supposed to return in the First
          Century, some 1900 years ago. If he did, no one noticed. But, I don’t expect
          that this proof will make a dent in most Christians. But I thought that I
          would point it out. The end of the world will not come anytime soon. Jesus
          will not “come quickly”. No. What will happen is that you will continue
          to live, and work– the world will continue to go on, past 2000, then 2010,
          then 2025, and so on, until you grow old and pass away. When you get to be
          old, at the end of your life, think of my writings. Remember that I told you
          so. You will never see the end of the world.

          Some readers may point
          to the book of Revelation, and object to my conclusions. But let’s honestly
          take a look at that book for a moment. Among much unintelligible ravings,
          the anonymous writer of Revelation clearly predicts the destruction of Rome
          (17:16-18), asserts that Nero, who was really dead, was yet alive (13:3),
          proclaims the immediate coming of Christ (1:7, 22:7, 12), the avenging of
          the persecuted prophets and apostles (18:20), the binding of Satan for a thousand
          years (20:2), and the establishment of God’s Kingdom (21).
          “We know how completely
          these expectations were disappointed. Jerusalem, where the temple at least
          was never to be violated, fell utterly, and the sanctuary was laid low never
          to rise again; while Rome, instead of being turned into a desert, still held
          her rank and fame. Nero, the Antichrist, was dead and never returned to life;
          but neither did the Christ come back to earth. The martyrs were not avenged,
          but fresh persecutions awaited the faithful. The kingdom of Satan held its
          own, and the Kingdom of God came not.” The Bible for Learners, Vol.
          3, pg. 655)

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            “Non believers do not believe jesus was the son of any divine being.” No, of course not: that is what faith is about. It’s like saying a tone-deaf man does not believe that “The Moldau” is beautiful, or a color-blind man does not believe that the sunset is magnificent. I’m not sure what your point is in this. But faith itself is a faculty (not of the senses but of the soul).

            As for all the references to eschatology, I’ll admit that this is a thorny subject, one that I don’t have all the answers to (except I *DO KNOW* without a doubt that the silly Left Behind scenario doesn’t square with Scripture at all). But eschatology is not the core of Christian doctrine: being right with God thru His Son is. That is what needs to be addressed in our lives, first and foremost.

            IOW, what do we do with Jesus? Who is He? If He was resurrected, then it behooves us to heed His message.

          • Frank Cartwright

            concerning your “reasoning” and mine. my basic and simple point is,another very real,present,”in the flesh” human can attest to the FACT that “The Moldau” exists by showing the deaf person the record and real device used to play it.this person could be the mother (trusted and honest,no agenda and in the present, unlike a stranger (with an agenda, that wrote biblical texts from 2000 years ago!) sure, the person could be lying about the beauty of the song, but at least the man can see and feel the real objects that produce music.there not invisible or requiring a leap of faith. you can even feel the vibrations of the music. BIG DIFFERENCE! not a very good analogy.you are totally wrong,sorry. —“being right with God thru His Son is” is a christian concept you cannot separate the two.how did you learn of god? or any of the church,it’s sacraments,texts,symbolism,rules? probably a christian school or church,or from a person that attended them.maybe a text produced from the church (man made) the knowledge did not appear in your breakfast cereal!

  • Rick Montz

    If he had ever been filled with the Holy Ghost as the Bible says in the Book of Acts this poor fellow could never make the statements attributed to him. He might be able to walk away from the Lord afterwards, but never deny His existence.

  • Mary Sears

    To be a Christian means to be Christ like. Jesus Christ believed in God therefore you cannot be Christ like or a christian if you don’t also believe in God.

    • Frank Cartwright

      Christ also did not believe in a church with wealth,power and corruption(the modern day version).he also preached love,forgiveness and TOLERANCE OF OTHERS.maybe you should research your faith better.

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        You’re right, Frank, He did not believe in, or submit to a church with wealth, power and corruption (hence you were wise to leave the Catholic “church”). His emphasis over and over was TRUTH and what the Scriptures said about things; he had no use for the traditions of men (in that day it was the Pharisees, the Jewish equivalent of the RCC). The apostles, too, were dirt poor.

        As for tolerance, read up on how “tolerant” he was toward, say, the Pharisees. Or toward these cities: “Woe to you, Chorazin! woe to you, Bethsaida! for if
        the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would
        have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. But it shall be
        more tolerable in the judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.” (Luke
        10:8-14 RSV)

        He is utterly INTOLERANT of sin, which is why He endured the Cross for us (substitutionary atonement for our sins). Recall how at the end, he told the woman caught in adultery, “Go and sin no more.”

        • Frank Cartwright

          you stress “catholic” yet how many false preachers on the air, you know, the millionaires that beg money for god (while wearing they big diamond rings and fine suits),condemn homosexuals,then are found in a motel with drugs and A MALE HOOKER disgraced! the scriptures were just the words of regular men,again why not woman? they are not magically like harry potter or supernatural,just writings,like ones from joseph smith or L ron hubbard,they are believed as truth from a god or a godlike person.i will NEVER understand how the death of a man could forgive our bad behavior! if jesus is god isn’t it just himself asking himself for forgiveness,crazy!

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            I’m not sure why it’s so important to you that the Scriptures should have been written by woman. You seem to be obsessed with that whole theme. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on this. Also, it’s true that the writers of the Bible were the words of “regular” men (iow they weren’t some sort of supermen, ET’s or the like), but they were inspired by God’s Spirit. Peter puts it this way: “…knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along [another translation is “moved”] by the Holy Spirit.”

            Jesus had to be thoroughly God and thoroughly man for this reason: it was thru man (Adam) that the human race was ruined. So it had to be a man taking his place for punishment (substitutionary atonement). But this man had to also be God so that He would be sinless and able to atone for ALL the sins of EVERY human being who would come to Him for the imputed righteousness.

  • lonebear

    Tough nuggies. If you deny God you are not a Christian

    • Frank Cartwright

      you are intelligent and free thinking

  • mallen11

    Apparently, he only studied the Bible academically and not under the power of the Holy Spirit IF he was a believer in the first place. Ministers in our churches are not teaching the Word of God. Our Nation that has been so blessed is now so full of evil because it has turned away from God and divine establishment and embraces, humanism, Atheism, socialism, communism, relativism, sports-ism and all the other isms that exist in our world today because man made religions and not the Bible are embraced.

    • Frank Cartwright

      “under the power of the Holy Spirit” could you please elaborate on what that is and how it works.there are many countries around the world that are very religious with very little in terms of secularism and they usually keep woman as 2nd class citizens and are barbaric and apathetic to suffering, only caring about proving how much they love “their” god,a scary place.

      • mallen11

        Religion is the devil’s ace trump and keeps people from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Christianity is a relationship with Christ through the knowledge of His written Word. In order to understand God’s Word one must first be a believer in Christ and the Holy Spirit teaches us. Hopefully, the following scriptures will make it clear.

        • Frank Cartwright

          “Religion is the devil’s ace trump and keeps people from the true gospel of Jesus Christ.”___so you saying the modern religion is not run by a god but by god’s creation the devil? thanks for your time but to me,those are the words of ordinary mortal men and they bear no weight.the Christan texts have been edited and translated so many times with so many parts omitted,they really have no credibility.

          • mallen11

            This is what I believe.

          • Frank Cartwright

            forgetting what you learned and just rely on logic and common sense.why would an all powerful being that wanted all his children to know of him not make it known till just a few thousand years ago ,when people were around much longer before that.why would he only chose those languages and peoples? doesn’t god love all equally? you only want to believe it is from a god and the words are important.i prefer proof and logic.choosing one small group of people (when man was created many years before) is not logical,loving or fair so it must be factitious.

          • Frank Cartwright

            Adam was just a story meant to teach the illiterates of that time,not real.what free will? are we free to choose to be here on earth in the first place,our genetics(which controls and makes our bodies and brains) when,where and to whom we are born? to choose our skin color,sex,sexual preference,intellect,sense of humor,talents,height,health(of body and mind/brain) how/when we die? the obvious answer to all the above is NO.conclusion:we do not have free will.

      • mallen11

        These scripture may help you understand.
        I Cor 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man (The Frame of Reference) which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God (Spiritual things) no one (unbeliever) knows except the Spirit of God. (We are dependent on the ministry of the Holy Spirit to understand Bible Doctrine.)
        John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
        John 14:16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
        Acts 11:15-17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. (Acts 1:5) Therefore if God gave to them (Gentiles) the same gift as He gave to us (Jews) also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” (The Gentile’s Filling of the Spirit. The Gentiles had their very own Pentecost.)
        Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
        II Tim 1:13 Retain the standard of sound doctrine which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasures which has been entrusted to you.
        Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
        I Thess 4:8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

        • Frank Cartwright

          with all respect you are just parroting what you read i like to use current real word examples and apply religion to them.religion usually does not bode well.

          • mallen11

            Then you are going about it the wrong way. Man is not superior to God and man’s viewpoint is meaningless compared to His written Word. There is no way mere man could write the Bible without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Since you don’t seem to be a believer in Christ; there is no way you can understand what the Bible says except for the verses on salvation.

          • Frank Cartwright

            “Man is not superior to God and man’s viewpoint is meaningless compared to His written Word”___your reply proves to me that my feelings of religious types is correct.they say that religion is all about love of man,bull! it is all about praising an unseen, made up super being and fear of damnation.second,that his will does indeed trump our supposed (much loved by god),human free will.you know the excuse(free will) the church made up to blame all bad acts on mankind while god(who started this mess!) stands idly by just waiting to judge.man! that is so unfair and warped!

          • mallen11

            I am sorry you live in a darkened world and cannot comprehend the truth about God. You seem to be a very angry person. What do you have to offer mankind that would make a better difference for everyone who is willing to accept it?
            1 Corinthians 2:14….But the natural man (unbeliever) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            Luke 10:21b “…I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that YOU have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
            BTW, you keep trying to convince yourself there is no God but you can’t stop Him from acknowledging Himself to you.

          • Frank Cartwright

            we ALL live in a darkened world.if there is a god,this terrible place(maybe your life is good,i look at others pain) is his/hers/it’s design,not a very kind being.do you watch the news and see the horrors perpetrated on infants,good men and woman as well as animals? how ANYONE can come away with the conclusion(i say delusion) that there is a LOVING,BENEVOLENT supreme being (in charge) is unfathomable to me! maybe there is a creator but it either does not love us,(or unable to feel empathy (you do need a physical brain to achieve this) or is powerless to help.do i seem angry? why? because i speak of real events,real pain,use real logic and sense? because i do not use pretty,reassuring verses that are truly meaningless in the face of real suffering? because i do not blame every single bad thing on man(woman) and leave the very being that made this mess totally blameless and innocent? now who is being robotic and naive? how can the creator of all,that made us who we are,who did not ask us to be here in the first place,that knew in advance of the horrors we will face and made us regardless,this is not love.this is (according to you) a being that made us for his amusement and constant praise,a true egotist and sadist.i notice you simply critique me and then quote verses,what about confronting real issues and real pain with real answers,please save the poetry and fairy tales.

          • mallen11

            There is not anything I can say to help you find the truth but Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for your sins and the entire mankind of this world. The real answers can only come from God’s Word; not man’s. Man cannot solve their own problems but God can. Don’t bother to answer my post since you are too mixed up to communicate with. God will deal with you.

          • Frank Cartwright

            once again you prove my point.you will not deal with re4ality and pain,just spout out religious babel.it does nothing to inspire conversion.nothing that makes anything you say credible,just a brainwashed robot,and probably a good person (if not delusional) at heart.take care.

          • Frank Cartwright

            “What do you have to offer mankind that would make a better difference for everyone who is willing to accept it”?___ love,acceptance,honesty,empathy,compassion,trust or more than any god.

          • Frank Cartwright

            with all respect, you(or any one else) have no irrefutable proof that any text of man (why not woman? doesn’t god like woman equally?) supposedly from a supreme father figure,ever existed.you only have a need to BELIEVE it so(faith),that is a fact.if i am going to run my life(or kid’s lives) according to writings in a book written by men from the bronze age(when very little science was known) i want/need 100% proof of origin and accuracy.too much is riding on “head in the sand” faith because it comforts me.i was a very devout catholic for 38years so i am no neophyte my friend.

      • mallen11

        I give an answer but the moderator keeps deleting it. I wonder why. Perhaps he doesn’t agree with me? I sent scriptures too.

      • mallen11

        Moderator, why are you deleting my reply?

      • mallen11

        I wish I could answer your question but the moderator keeps deleting it.

  • Deedee Keith

    Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no GOD. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    • Frank Cartwright

      all abominable acts would not exist if you god did not create them,genius talk to it!

      • Deedee Keith

        My GOD didn’t create abominable acts. man did my GOD is HOLY it is man’s sinful heart and ways that are evil. And HE still loves everyone. it’s the sin that he hates. And your a fool as well…

        • Frank Cartwright

          your (invented) god? so, all the others are wrong? the non believers or ones of different faiths? wow! how did you get so bright? why is it your god invented all from things smaller than the atom to the largest galaxy,but is 100% not responsible for anything bad? how convenient and silly. why does my heart break when i see animals,children and decent people suffer(and try to help) and yet a being that made us here to live in this place,does not care? how is it better than me? love us? top suffering.abuse,torture,fear,starvation etc! that would be love! you are less than a fool.you are a frightened,ignorant child.

          • YHWH IS LOVE HIS MERCY IS FORE

            People need to take responsibility for their own actions, God loves us so much that He gave his only begotten son to die for our sins. and who so ever shall believeth in him shall have everlasting life, now he loves us so much that he gives us free will to worship him or not. He don’t tell man to poison our food and water, He didn’t tell that pedifile to rape innocent children man has a mind of his own to do good or bad, he didn’t tell people to steal, he said thou shalt not steal, nor kill, or lie, or commit adultery so why do people sill do it. do you think it is ok for people to do those things probably not, so why is it his fault. hmm you people are always quick to down talk My GOD but yet I don’t see any of you cowards embrace the god of the muslims, and yet the kill, rape and destroy everything they touch and yet I don’t see you cowards beating down their doors trying to make them let homosexuals get married in their mosques and why because the kill gays, and all non believers and yet JESUS tells us to love our enemies but hate sin.. your just mad because you live a sinful life, so we will see who will be crying out to the GOD you hate when you burn in hell forever, JESUS said hell is where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched…I pity people like you..You people tell us not to force our religion on you, GOD is not a religion he is GOD, he don’t need you to love him or worship him, and yet he still loves you..

          • Frank Cartwright

            “People need to take responsibility for their own actions, God loves us
            so much that He gave his only begotten son to die for our sins. and who
            so ever shall believeth in him shall have everlasting life, now he loves
            us so much that he gives us free will to worship him or not”.____how can you speak(for all) and lump all humanity together and make that statement? ALL people are irresponsible? sounds like you are judge and jury,not very christ-like.many people at least as wise as you feel jesus was just a prophet you have zero proof,just a belief(like kids and santa claus).if a god did loves us,why did he create a reality where pain and suffering are possible and prevalent? an all powerful,omniscient being can shape and make any reality it chooses! why make one with so much needless agony? why do i,as a simple person(next to a god) have more empathy than a god? am i better? how could an all powerful being begin to relate to us? do you love and care for germs or bacteria? no,everytime you boil water or use bleach you murder microscopic life,you may scoff at this,but in comparison to god we are LESS than germs.free will? you can look on this page at my thoughts on that,summing it up, it is an illusion,god’s will is king! your religion says it.___”He don’t tell man to poison our food and water, He didn’t tell that
            pedifile to rape innocent children man has a mind of his own to do good
            or bad, he didn’t tell people to steal, he said thou shalt not steal,
            nor kill, or lie, or commit adultery so why do people sill do it. do you
            think it is ok for people to do those things probably not, so why is it
            his fault. hmm you people are always quick to down talk My GOD but yet I
            don’t see any of you cowards embrace the god of the muslims, and yet
            the kill, rape and destroy everything they touch and yet I don’t see you
            cowards beating down their doors trying to make them let homosexuals
            get married in their mosques and why because the kill gays, and all non
            believers and yet JESUS tells us to love our enemies but hate sin”____he doesn’t have to tell man to poison food or water,there are things in nature (from the beginning) that do these things,they do not need our help.he didn’t tell the pedophile to rape? really? where do you think that sick urge/desire comes from? THE BRAIN,GOD’S DESIGN! pretty disgusting eh? ALL bad actions stem from the brain,it can be altered by drugs alcohol disease age and injury.we are products of the brains god gave us,good stuff and horrible stuff.read history christians have raped ,stole lied, murdered, molested,tortured as much or more men woamn and even children as any religion,how do you think they got so rich and powerful? giving hugs and kisses? gay hating was promoted heavily in the bible.____”

            your just mad because you live a sinful life, so we will see who will be
            crying out to the GOD you hate when you burn in hell forever, JESUS
            said hell is where the worm never dies and the fire is never
            quenched…I pity people like you..You people tell us not to force our
            religion on you, GOD is not a religion he is GOD, he don’t need you to
            love him or worship him, and yet he still loves you.._____ my life is more moral and empathetic than most christians, including clergy! i do not rape, rob, murder, molest, or sell people the bunk that i know of a god! if god was truly loving he would never send one of his children to hell! he did not even torture satan himself! you would not even know of the christian god(even the very word “god”) with out religion,the churches schools clergy texts,you did not wake up one day and have god knowledge(fables) in your brain or the writing was in the sky for you,was it?

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Frank, this venue is a bit limited for addressing all that you bring up here. But let me just touch on a couple of your points:

            You’re not taking into consideration that the world is fallen (cf. my above post to you about the colossal Cosmic Mutation), including our brains. You are right to be angry about what the Scriptures call sin (and the illness and death that result from it): Jesus was angry, too, about death and suffering. So angry that He died on the Cross to overcome the power of sin and death. (And that death also show His incredible love for us humans.)

            What that other commenter meant about our taking responsibility for our actions is simply that God is not to blame for all the horrors that you so rightly decry.

          • Frank Cartwright

            the world was terrible from day one(thanks to your god’s will!) her planet,her reality,her creations,her fault! very simple.i am angry that if there is a designer,why she made the world so hard to live on(just to survive,find food, water, shelter,fight animals) and made humans brains capable of apathy and anger,there only chemical reaction and synapses firings,a god could have made a different brain,obviously god loves chaos and pain(though not hers’).__”He died on the Cross to overcome the power of sin and death.”____just religious mumbo jumbo,meaningless.sorry.”responsibility for our actions”? that takes a brain,the one your god made! all bad and good derives,originates there,talk to god about a new design.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            The world being “so hard to live on” came as a result of the disobedience: remember that in the beginning, Eden was the Place of Perfection. But the disobedience brought the curse of the thorns and thistles (shorthand for all the troubles you enumerate).

            No, He hates chaos and pain. That’s why He died on the Cross, to undo all the chaos and pain caused by The Fall (the first disobedience). “God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.” (1 Corinthians 14:33) But the denouement of that undoing is taking time (sort of like when WW2 was over, there was still sporadic fighting here and there from die-hards).

          • Frank Cartwright

            the Christians problem is not evolution. Its all the kinds of humanoid fossils that have been found.If I stipulate that Adam and Eve were specially created as adults, then
            the Christian has to explain what the other Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis fossils are. Adam and eve were supposed to be the first, but there sure are a lot of old primate bones laying around and we know how human biology reacts when brothers and sisters mate. Its not likely they would have survived, unless the old perpetual miracle was going on. To lump in the homo erectus and Neanderthals into the
            animals that Adam named doesn’t make sense either because there is evidence of Neanderthal ritual, which signifies intelligence. And then if they want to posit the perpetual miracle, then they have to rationalize away the reasons god wouldn’t make things the way he intended in the first place. It would have made more sense if Genesis started with Adam and Eve, let them build up a community and then put
            the ‘fall of man’ events into motion. In my mind evolution is
            not the nail in the coffin for Christianity, its anthropology. Its
            explaining when Adam and Eve popped into existence. If Jesus knew of the Genesis account of Adam and Eve, unlike Paul, he never used it in any of his theology.But, just how much of the Bible did Jesus know about or even believed in?
            It appears that the mostly illiterate Jesus (who never wrote anything because he was unable to (John 8:8 being a late addition) knew very little of the Bible compared to the highly educated Hellenistic Paul who
            used the Genesis account to formulate systematic theology (especially to attack women). It’s little wonder that Christians CAN NOT get a “Plain of Salvation” from the Synoptic Gospels and hardly anything from the Gospel of John. The reason being, other than some very popular oral stories about Moses and the Law, Jesus, like most Jew of the day:
            A. Could not afford an Aramaic or Hebrew Torah (let alone the wholeTaNaK). B. Even if Jesus and the masses could get just a scroll of the Aramaic Torah, they could not read it (The story of Jesus reading from the Isaiah in the synagogue is highly problematic (Luke 4: 17)).Whenwe compare the illiterate Jesus with the religiously educated Jewish Paul, one can truly understand why (even with the shaping of the Gospels
            in Christian tradition) evangelical Christians can take just one letter from Paul (Romans) and have a complete systematic theology on Salvation
            while poor old illiterate Jesus has to ramble on in oral moral tales call “parables” which even confused his own followers (Mark 4:2 – 13).If you eliminate Adam and Eve and their sin against Yahweh, then what need do you have of Jesus as the redeemer? If Adam and Eve are metaphorical(like i feel), doesn’t that suggest Jesus is a fictional character as well? The Bible self-destructs with everything science has taught us.
            The science of forensics disproves Adam and Eve 100 times over. If we are from Adam and Eve, We would practically be cousins with everyone in the world! No. This is scientifically impossible. Instead, forensics states that we are not all related. Adam and Eve also doesn’t explain race. If we are all descendants from Adam and Eve, we would all be one
            race. Adam and Eve states they have two sons, Kain and Abel, but, WHERE ARE THE GIRLS? They must have had something to repopulate with. It is also said Adam and eve knew how to speak, but even cavemen had no idea of the simplest languages! Wouldn’t Adam and Eve have taught
            their children to speak their language? They also say that Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge, yet, man has never found a tree that give knowledge of everything in the universe! The tree had a fruit,
            which means it probably had seeds, which would have made other trees similar to it, giving infinite knowledge of everything. They also say that the snake spoke at one time, yet, the snake has no vocal cords! There is also evidence that the Earth is older than 4,000 years. Human footprints believed to be 40,000 years old have actually been older! It s 51,000 years old. This conflicts with the story you gave right? even a tree shows the Earth is older than 4,000 years! That isall Adam and Eve should be taken as. A story!

          • YHWH IS LOVE HIS MERCY IS FORE

            And why is this scripture bother you so much did it strike a nerve that your a fool. hmm maybe so..

          • Frank Cartwright

            which one? they (all)only bother me because naive people belief them and inflict their superstitious mind on their kids and other people.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Careful! You have the right to rear your kids (assuming you have any) according to what your convictions are, and others with different convictions have the right to rear their offspring as they see fit. Or are you inflicting your views on your kids?

            From our perspective, atheism and secularism are superstitious: who really believes the fairy tale that a frog can turn into a prince? (AKA Darwinism)

          • Frank Cartwright

            ” Or are you inflicting your views on your kids?” ___ what if i were? you just said i could! superstitious?! now that is FUNNY! are you serious? all religions are unproven and rely on ancient texts,re edited and re interpreted over and over again losing most of it’s original content. THAT IS WHY THERE ARE CALLED FAITH.as in LEAP OF,NO EVIDENCE OR LOGIC NEEDED.please reconsider,that was just foolish.i assume you believe the incestuous fable of adam and eve? now THAT is a fantasy and superstitious non science.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            The evidence for Christianity is Christ come in the flesh, and then the Resurrection. If you’re asking for proof in the scientific sense, that’s unreasonable: that’s like saying there’s no such thing as love or hate or freedom or beauty because they can not be proven by scientific methods. Now, on the other hand, the things the New Testament relates can be subjected to forensic scrutiny, an appropriate form of “proof.” Read WHO MOVED THE STONE, which does just that (very short volume, written by someone who originally set out to disprove the story of the Resurrection).

          • Frank Cartwright

            sorry, that is not evidence,that is believing the stories of your faith and treating them as facts,big difference.why? we base all other concepts of reality by scientific means,if i touch a solid object,smell a fragrance ,hear a voice,all made valid, proven, scientifically (and by senses,unlike faith). would you buy a house without seeing and going there to inspect it first? i am assuming,no.how can you therefore accept (blind faith) a concept(written by bronze age,crude men) that is many more times of more importance than your house? love and hate are real (with tangible actions) proven, emotions originating from the very real, tangible brain (we can see, touch it) we can alter them (emotions) with drugs, alcohol,disease,injury and surgery etc.if hate/love is proven it is not the same as needing faith (no logical proof) to believe it actually exists.need more convincing? you can be a parent to a person for 50 years or more,love and sacrifice for them.that person actually gives you a reason to live.then with a hard enough trauma to the head or Alzheimer disease,you forget everything about them! what happened to love? the memories? the happiness? the sacrifice? all taken away by injury or chemical changes in our real brains,nothing metaphysical or supernatural.i notice you mention the new test,do you dismiss the old one and the portrayal of an angry,vicious,petty,ego maniacal,jealous,mess of a god? as i said earlier NO ONE CAN ANSWER WHY DID GOD INVENT THE DEVIL IF HE LOVES US AND HATES EVIL AND PAIN INFLICTED ON US! IF YOU CANNOT THE WHOLE RELIGION FALLS APART.

          • Deedee Keith

            I’m sad for you Frank I will be praying for you, I pray your eyes will open to see, and your ears to hear, and your heart to receive the LOVE OF OUR FATHER, he loves you so much and I pray for HEALING OF YOUR HEART MIND AND BODY AND SPIRIT I ask you my heavenly Father that you bless Frank and his family, that you reveal your awesome love to him, oh Father king of GLORY fill Frank with hope, and surround him with angels to minister to him, Forgive me Frank for I have sinned against you and MY FATHER IN HEAVEN in THE HOLY NAME OF JESUS amen…God Bless you Frank. I hope to meet you in heaven someday…I pray for healing from the crown of your head to the soles of your feet…in JESUS MIGHTY NAME AMEN..

          • Frank Cartwright

            thanks but do not pray for me,pray for these people that god forgot! __ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQZ-ERQczj8 __ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDR5xpLEx-U __ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NXUCiIgeMk___ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW5qoAKRSKE — or if you care for animals… – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVyFSTYY7zghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vqIGTKuQE — so if you had the courage and empathy to watch all the videos above that highlight the horrors of you god’s handiwork(his world,his creations,his fault) you can see there are many more beings in need of useless prayer(cannot change god’s will,bible and scripture sez so) please ask the “heavenly father” to help those people and animals first would you? let’s actually TEST prayer and see if it really works or is it just a childish ritual that the church tells you to do.thanks.

          • Frank Cartwright

            you amaze me! i cite real cases of human and animal suffering and your rebuttal is quoting religious dribble? talk about robotic behavior,don’t you have the free will to form a thought and reply without religious pre written words? have you lost all your individuality and empathy for beings here? get your head out of the “heavenly” clouds and focus on beings that need help.that would be a better use of your time,money and energy,stop praying and DO SOMETHING THAT REALLY HELPS thanks.

          • YHWH IS LOVE HIS MERCY IS FORE

            Sad that you have so much hate for GOD who loves you. but as I see in your picture you shall meet your god soon..the god of this world.satan and hell is your home..then you will see the truth and it is not in you…ill still be praying for you, your opinions are foolish and it will cause you to parish for ever

          • Frank Cartwright

            that’s not me you fool(picture).more compassionate words from a god lover huh? you never answered one word of my last letter just spewing more hateful religious rhetoric.i am still shaking my head concerning your “god is not religion” view! what is god if not a religious creation? it is PERISH not parish.my opinions are foolish to you because unlike you i actually care for my fellow beings,my life is not just trying to score points with an imagined ghost dad in space,you callous hypocrite.

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            Frank, because of Jesus, we don’t have to “score points.” That’s the big difference between believing in Jesus vs. all the other religions in the world: Jesus scored all the necessary points for us.

            And yes, He calls us, once we’re made new in Him, to focus on doing good works. But if we think that our good works in and of themselves will make us right with God, we are mistaken. They can NEVER measure up to his holy standard.

            It’s sort of like this: in Bergen-Belsen, a woman dying of typhoid gave her last bread crust to another woman who was still healthy. Generous, to say the least. But that bread crust was contaminated with typhus. So it was actually a liability for the healthy woman. That is what our “righteous deeds” are in the face of heaven: contaminated. Only the uncontaminated deeds of Christ can measure up to God’s perfect standard.

          • Frank Cartwright

            sir,please believe me when i say i mean no disrespect but having to score points or not sounds so “out there” that i really cannot believe anyone follows any religion.i was a very good catholic for many years and i never felt “made new” by my faith.though i did feel freer and less guilt ridden(when i stopped) than when i did believe.my reply to your “Bergen-Belsen” example is, why did god allow those good people (children too) to suffer in a way,and length of time that jesus(supposedly) never did himself? (his pain was supposedly so very great) where is god’s love and intervention? why were prayers not answered? why didn’t she kill the nazis guards? ya know “smite them” she smited many good people and innocent children,even animals in the story of noah alone! that is why there is a saying among the survivors “god never survives auschwitz!” never mind the many other times she saw fit to kill or hurt mankind out of spite or jealousy. well, if jesus is the only one with accepted deeds,that means the sacrifice of the many, many people that were tortured and killed by not denying their faith in jesus to their torturer or executioner was meaningless,at least lessened! this to me is a disgusting proposition! jesus allows one sacrifice in a few very bad days then goes to heaven.people are tortured and they lived(some) ruined lives for many years and their deeds still are not worthy! well god can kiss off!

          • Guenther Wolegaz

            The suffering does indeed break one’s heart. But it goes back to the horrendous Cosmic Mutation that occurred when the original parents disobeyed. It’s not God’s fault, it’s the fault of humans. It’s a long chain-reaction effect, if you will.

            When that C.M. occurred, everything was thrown out of kilter: nature, ourselves…We are out of synch with Him, with each other, with ourselves, with the Creation (animals, plants, ecosystem, etc.). The C.M. was a colossal distortion and deformation of a once Perfect Universe, where there was no sin and no suffering. At some point in the future, when He gets rid of all evil and evildoers, it will once again be restored to that pristine and joyous state.

          • Frank Cartwright

            sorry, that is just your faith’s story,just a fairy tale,many priests today admit that,like noah and jonah it never happened,just to teach a simple people,are you simple? we can prove evolution,not adam and eve.did you know adams’ first wife was lilith? — http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishculture/a/Where-Does-The-Legend-Of-Lilith-Come-From.htm — even if the fable was true, what about animal’s pain? they had no choice,yet they suffer(usually from us) at least as much as we do! sorry i cannot look at any infant crying from hunger pans till death and say(to myself) how sad yet she/he deserved it because of what 2 other people did many years ago! that would be evil at it’s best! as well as no empathy compassion love,mercy humanity.if god allows this and she does,what does that say about her,especially since she created this mess from nothing.what monster could even dream of creating such a reality? we are just pawns.holding infants, animals and good people responsible for the deeds of others before them is ridiculous and cruel beyond belief! i sure hope are being here is just the result of random events, i shudder to think we may have to deal with this monster after death! one last thing,if god hates evil(i assume from the devil) why did she create it? she is all powerful and omniscient.another foolish christian lie.take care.

  • motorsportsnz

    A new angle for the pressies.
    The man is demonised he needs deliverance.

    • Frank Cartwright

      really? WHO MADE THE DEMON AND MAN? why don’t you start with the creator why creates such things,wouldn’t it be the one that should be held accountable or are you to afraid?

      • Guenther Wolegaz

        Frank, I too have a rough time with why God allowed Satan into existence, and why He didn’t just nip him in the bud (the whole theodicy issue). But this I know beyond the shadow of a doubt:

        1. I am in no way able to measure up to God’s perfect standard (think of sin as bacteria, and how bacteria can not enter into a surgery arena).

        2. He will judge us one day, every one of us.

        3. The only way to be right with Him and to be restored to fellowship with Him is thru His appointed way, Jesus Christ.

        • Frank Cartwright

          you should have a tough time! once that was revealed to me coupled with the priests molestations, were the main reasons i quit religion(all the suffering i saw in the world too,and that prayer did not work just added to my leaving). that “fact ” alone should made anyone see the falsehood of this faith.it is absolutely basic,and simple.how can the church preach god hates the devil and it’s evil.yet made and empowered it knowing in advance what it would do?! to me,game over! funny, god is supposed to judge us and (even on earth) punish us (lowly,caught in the middle of a cosmic good vs(or is ) evil) and yet god will not destroy or simply not make (in the first place) the worst of the worst beings that torments her supposed loved children! what a crock of crap! god’s perfect standard? you mean the one lucifer passed? please! are you smoking the carpet! she has no right to judge! how could see? does she have the power? sure! but not on a moral basis,she invented evil.

  • John Carter

    How sad! ” For many deceiver have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh”. 2 John 1:7

  • New Centurion

    What a fraud. I bet he believes he should get paid every 2 weeks though.

    • Frank Cartwright

      every clergymen and woman are frauds.

  • Sandi

    He may not appreciate being told he’s not a Christian, but that is too bad for he is not. What he is, is a hireling.

  • Frank Cartwright

    oh no! i think christians have picked the wrong father figure! __ http://time.com/3769287/religion-atheists-study/

  • thomg875

    And the Presbyterian church allows him to continue to be associated with their ministry? If so, I would really doubt their ministry and hope ones in that church find a good Bible-believing church.

  • John Mark IB

    oh boy look out now haha!! really this guy’s hilarious, truly wonderful to have apostates in our day and age, who still claim to be even remotely Christian, and yet their fruit is pure rotten and is obvious, even to well, almost, to the unsaved crowds, haha!! really? he doesn’t like being called or told he’s not a Christian haha!! hey Mr. Apostate, news flash read the book it’s right there in front of you in The KJV if you will, Jesus himself will tell you you’re not a Christian and give the name nothing but shame!! I can’t wait until he stands in front of Jesus and says Lord Lord! look what I did in your name!! and Jesus says unto him depart from me you accursed into everlasting fire I never knew you and oh by the way you’re not a Christian!! haha really dear Mr. Apostate please repent and get saved aget born again and become that which you’re not a True Christian!! wow this guy just plain needs to get saved!! here’s the hope

    http://faithsaves.net/salvation/

    http://www.pillarandground.org/home/?page_id=36

    http://faithsaves.net/apologetics-and-false-religions/

  • Els

    Can you call yourself a capitalist and not believe in the tenants of capitalism? can you call yourself a Marxist and be a capitalist?? Can you call yourself a Christian and not be a follower of Christ?

    • Guenther Wolegaz

      Tenets. Tenants live in a rental.

      • Els

        Thanks!

  • EdWalton

    The important questions is, how many show up to have their ears tickled?

  • Reason2012

    A Christ-ian is a person that believes they’ll be facing Christ and that Christ is God with us – God in the flesh. So to not believe in God is to tell us you’re not a Christian. To not believe Jesus is and did who who says He is and what He did, is to tell us you’re not a Christian.

    Clearly this guy is confused about what the word “Christian” even means.

  • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

    You’re not seeing the “full picture” here.
    I’m a Christian.
    But, we must remember that we are “Living in a Secular Society”, which ALLOWS THE “FREEDOM OF RELIGION”…..in other words – “we are all FREE to believe what we want in the U.S.A.”.

    That’s a “good thing” that our Founding Fathers ALLOWED FOR.

    The BIG PART you’re “Missing” is that “YOU ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN THAT SECULAR GOVERNMENT”.

    In “other words”…..DON’T SEND YOUR CHILDREN TO “PUBLIC SCHOOLS”, which are “Furnished By A SECULAR SOCIETY”.

    How in your “right mind” would you expect ANYTHING ELSE from a “Secular Society”, other than “NO RELIGION”?????

    The “Government”, the Secular Society, which you see DECAYING, is doing so “Because They Are Not Fearful Of God”.

    Jesus said…”Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and give to God what is God’s”.

    The TRUTH IS….you can’t SERVE TWO MASTERS.

    That’s what you’re TRYING TO DO HERE.

    You’re trying to “Convert Caesar”….IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

    We were told this BY JESUS….the “wicked will continue to be wicked, but, those who know their God will standfast in the Day Of Judgement”.

    The only SOLUTION, is to “Separate Yourself From THEM”, just as God wanted “Israel To SEPARATE THEMSELVES FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD “.

    They were “Unique” because of “THEIR IDENTITY”, which God ultimately TOOK AWAY FROM THEM by causing them to go SERVE OTHER GODS IN FOREIGN LANDS.

    Is this NOT TRUE???

    This “battle” is NOT YOURS TO WIN – It belongs to God.

    “I will avenge, sayeth the Lord, it is MINE TO AVENGE”.

    All I can say to you is “KEEP YOUR FAITH”, TEACH IT TO YOUR CHILDREN, NOT TO THE WICKED….PUT YOUR CHILDREN IN “SCHOOLS THAT BELIEVE AS YOU DO”.

    Instead….you are TAKING FROM “CAESAR”, and telling him to “LOVE GOD”.

    It doesn’t work that way …..SURELY YOU KNOW THIS??

    Jesus CALLS YOU OUT from among the WICKED.
    He does not SEND YOU IN to be “Devoured By Them”.

    Let what belongs to God stay with God, and let what belongs to the Wicked stay with the Wicked.

    This is NOT your fight….it belongs to God. And GOD CALLS THOSE WHO ARE “HIS” TO COME TO HIM…- THOSE WITH “EARS HEAR HIS VOICE”……..the rest DO NOT HEAR HIM CALLING.

    Will you “Open Their Ears For Them”???
    Will you “Open Their Eyes For Them???

    That JOB belongs to JESUS….just as He did when He came to Jerusalem……..He HEALED THE DEAF & BLIND.

    Do not presume to be like God who “Opens ears & eyes”.

    They will be called to ACCOUNT for their OWN LIVES.
    Do not worry about WHAT OTHERS DO….keep your EYES ON GOD.

    Please!!!

    • Crono478

      “You’re trying to “Convert Caesar”….IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.”

      Another thing I want to add is that, I can’t actually convert anyone because I am sinner. This is something that Holy Spirit can only do. Each person repented of their sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior have Holy Spirit living in them. His main role is identified in John 16:8

      8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

      Combine this with Matthew 28:19-20 which I mentioned to you as well. People who reject Jesus Christ will face God’s wrath that is to come later on. Also, Paul wrote this that we are to preach His word even if we are ready or not.

      2 Timothy 4:2

      2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

      How can I keep silent knowing that people will go to hell when they have never repented of their sins and accepted Jesus as their Savior. That is why I pray for them and share the Gospel with them that they might become saved later on that is of God’s power and grace. My own power or ability cannot lead them to their salvation.

      • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

        My “simple point” was….don’t complain about the “Schools” when you know they are FURNISHED BY CAESAR.

        I thought I made that pretty clear.

        Instead, you bring in “another context”, which had nothing to do with the “Prior discussions” ABOUT “SCHOOLS”.

        Try to keep this in the “context” of my comment to your “prior comment”.
        Simple point was…DON’T COMPLAIN ABOUT A SECULAR SOCIETY……which “they chose to be”. Everyone has “heard about the Word of God”, and, obviously it’s “their choice” to either accept it, or not. But, you cannot expect ANY HELP FROM THE SECULAR GOVERNMENT, who “rightly” will rule in “FAVOR OF NO RELIGION”. But, at the same time – THEY DON’T STOP YOU FROM DOING WHATEVER YOU PLEASE……that’s your “Constitutional Right”.

        Is this too hard to grasp??

        • Crono478

          I do not appreciate your tone. It is as if you are yelling at me. Also, you are solely mistaken. First amendment gives us our freedom to exercise our religion and prohibits the government to impose “state” religion on any of us.

          That means anyone who is elected to a seat in US Government do have right to pass any law that is in consistent to their belief. We cannot just pass the law to declare that Christianity, Judaism or any other religion is one that we must follow in our land due to first amendment.

          I believe that this is very hard for you to grasp. If you do believe that I am in error on what I said, then you should follow this verse:

          Galatians 6:1

          6 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

          • http://BibleGateway.com/ Revelation55

            Like I said….too hard to “grasp”.

            It was “bazaar” talking with you.

            Bye.

  • Josey

    Shuck reiterated his unbelief in his article “I’m a Presbyterian
    Minister Who Doesn’t Believe in God” on Tuesday, as he asserted that
    “[b]elief-less Christianity is thriving.”
    “We all have been trained to think that Christianity is about
    believing things,” he wrote. “Its symbols and artifacts (God, Bible,
    Jesus, Heaven, etc) must be accepted in a certain way. And when times
    change and these beliefs are no longer credible, the choices we are left
    with are either rejection or fundamentalism.”

    First of all, God’s word never changes, He’s the same yesterday, today and forever regardless of the worldly times changing. Matthew 7:13,14 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    But Shuck says that although he rejects the Bible as being literal,
    and denies the existence of Heaven and Hell, he takes offense when
    people tell him that he’s not a Christian.
    I have news for this smuck, Christian means a disciple of Christ and follower of Christ’s ways as spoken in God’s word, the Bible. The changing world doesn’t change what God says in His word. I’m not sure why this guy wants to be called a Christian when he doesn’t follow Christ or His teachings. Perhaps he gets a non-profit tax break by his claim of being a Christian even though he is clearly not a Christian and he is also used by satan to deceive people into thinking like he does, ‘the you can claim being a Christian but live however you so choose gospel.’

  • Willem Toerien

    Can someone please mail this oak a dictionary with the note, “please look up the term ‘Christianity’. Thank you.”

  • underthewire

    He doesn’t believe in God but uses the name of Christ. WOW. Brain dead?

  • Josey

    Matthew 16:13-20 13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
    This revelation of Jesus Christ being the Christ, Son of the living God is the rock that Christ Jesus has built the church on, flesh and blood did not reveal this to Peter but God the Father and Creator of all revealed it to Peter just as God reveals to Christians today. If one does not believe in who Jesus is, the Son of God, Christ, God’s anointed. It is futile to claim to be a Christian if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, God’s Son and all that He came and did for us on the cross. You my as well call yourself an atheist, it doesn’t make a difference what you call yourself if you do not believe in Christ, you all are in the same boat going to the same place.

  • Josey

    This guy is a nut, he claims to be a christian which means ‘a follower of Christ’ but yet denies Christ’s existence. He wants his fifteen minutes of fame I suppose…geez

  • Ardeare

    Faith is the belief in things which are not seen, which are true.

  • Fallenman4Jesus

    Brain-dead preaching to brain-less. The Presbyterian “church” is in serious trouble!

    • Verisimilitude

      “Fallen” Man: “The Presbyterian “church” is in serious trouble”

      Yes, along with the rest of the “Christian” Church.

      • Fallenman4Jesus

        Jesus Christ’s true church is alive and well.

        • TheBottomline4This

          And always will be 🙂

  • billy

    This is about the funniest thing I think I’ve ever read. No, you are not a minister (of anything)! And you show even deeper stupidity by not even knowing the definition of Christian. Moron

  • http://twitter.com/Adenovir A. Deno Vir, MD PhD

    I bet most ministers (and Priests and Rabbis and Imams) feel this way, they just won’t admit it because it’s their livelihood.

  • Paula Coyle

    One more time. YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN.

  • Linda Stricker

    When you have the correct understanding that God is just a metaphor, everything you said in response to this minister is exposed for what it is.

  • TheBottomline4This

    Aww you poor thing. Truth hurts sometimes buddy. You’re not a Christian…period.