Arkansas Governor Refuses to Sign State Religious Freedom Restoration Act Without Changes

LITTLE ROCK — The governor of Arkansas says that he won’t sign the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) in light of its current language, just a day after the legislature sent the bill to his desk.

H.B. 1228 passed the Arkansas House of Representatives 67-21 on Tuesday, sending the legislation to Republican Gov. Asa Hutchinson for signing.

“It is the intent of the General Assembly to: (1) Ensure that in all cases in which state action substantially burdens the exercise of religion strict scrutiny is applied; (2) Provide a claim or defense to a person whose exercise of religion is substantially burdened by state action; and (3) Implement Article 2, § 24, of the Arkansas Constitution, which states that ‘[N]o human authority can, in any case or manner whatsoever, control or interfere with the right of conscience,'” it reads in part.

It then provides general language surrounding prohibiting government action from being used to “substantially burden” the First Amendment religious rights of citizens.

“A state action shall not substantially burden a person’s right to exercise of religion, even if the substantial burden results from a rule of general applicability, unless it is demonstrated that applying the substantial burden to the person’s exercise of religion in this particular instance: (1) Is essential to further a compelling governmental interest; and (2) Is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest,” the legislation declares.

However, as in Indiana, where that state’s RFRA was signed into law last week to mirror the federal RFRA signed by then-President Bill Clinton in 1993, the bill has faced opposition from those who claim that the legislation pertains to homosexuality.

Walmart CEO Doug McMillion released a statement this week calling for Hutchinson to veto the RFRA, contending that it is antithetical to the company’s beliefs on persons attracted to those of the same sex.

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“Today’s passage of H.B. 1228 threatens to undermine the spirit of inclusion present throughout the state of Arkansas and does not reflect the values we proudly uphold,” he wrote.

Walmart’s corporate headquarters are located in Bentonvillle, Ark.

But sponsor Rep. Bob Ballinger (R-Berryville) told the Washington Post that he believes that the RFRA, which has been passed in 20 other states, has been made into an issue about homosexuality when sexual behavior—or any particular issue—is not mentioned in the legislation.

“This legislation doesn’t allow anybody to discriminate against anybody,” he stated on Tuesday. “The bill does just the opposite. It focuses on the civil rights of people believing what they want to believe, and not letting the government interfere with that. … That should be the focus of this bill, without being muddied by a bunch of other things.”

Hutchinson originally stated that he would sign the bill into law, but on Wednesday, he sent the legislation back to lawmakers, requesting that changes be made to the current language.

“It has been my intention all along to have House Bill 1228 to mirror the federal act,” he said in a statement. “The bill that is on my desk at the present time does not … mirror the federal law.”

Therefore, Hutchinson explained that he has now “asked leaders in the General Assembly to recall the bill so that it mirrors the federal religious act.” He did not specify exactly what language needed to be altered or added other than to ensure that it is akin to the federal RFRA.

“This is a bill that in ordinary times would not be controversial, but these are not ordinary times,” he remarked. “I want to make it clear that Arkansas wants to be a place of tolerance.”

Hutchinson identifies as a Southern Baptist, and is a former alumnus of Bob Jones University.

A similar religious freedom bill has been presented to lawmakers in North Carolina, where it likewise is facing opposition. American Airlines has already spoken against the legislation, which has yet to come up for a vote in both houses.

“Laws like this will harm the economies of the states in which they are enacted, and would ultimately be a step in the wrong direction for a society that seeks tolerance, peace and prosperity for all,” American Airines Spokesperson Michelle Mohr told the Charlotte Observer.

According to reports, Republican Gov. Pat McCrory is expected to veto the bill should it reach his desk. He told local radio station WFAE this week that the bill “makes no sense,” and that he doesn’t see the need for the legislation.

“What is the problem they’re trying to solve?” McCrory said. “I haven’t seen it at this point in time.”

But Mark Harris, a Charlotte pastor who ran for the Senate last year, told reporters that he was “highly disappointed” in McCrory, opining that the bill “would protect Christians from governments eager to advance the agenda that sexual rights are superior to religious liberty.”

The site Red State made similar remarks on Wednesday, stating that homosexual advocates are using the bill as a way to ensure that Christians are forced to be partakers in another man’s sins (1 Timothy 5:22; Ephesians 5:7). While homosexuals are coming out of the closet, the article implies, Christians are being forced into the closet—or behind the four walls of their churches.

“The homosexual lobby is not interested in tolerance. They are not even interested in acceptance. They have had both for decades,” writer “Streiff” commented. “What they are after is celebration and the eradication of Christian (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion. They are focused on driving religion into a space confined to a single building for a hour or so each week.”

“The objection is not about discrimination because no sane person could think that is even a potential issue,” he said. “The objection is that Christians can’t be sued and bullied into celebrating homosexuality.”


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  • The Last Trump

    Uh oh! There goes ANOTHER hateful state trying to preserve Constitutionally protected religious freedoms. Egads! What an unimaginable crime!

    Haters, religious bigots, and trolls should be out in force again today. Surprise, surprise!
    (I wonder if the foolish from florida would…nah. Surely not TWICE in a row!…surely… 🙂

    • MisterPine

      How is it hypocritical to tell people they are not allowed to use their faith to trump the rights of human beings? How is it hateful to tell Christians not to hate?

      • BravesFan

        I’m trying to figure out what’s so hateful about having to find another bakery for your wedding cake…

        • MisterPine

          You can’t legally deny services to people merely because you find them icky.

          • The Last Trump

            Wrong. As usual.
            Businesses can reserve the right to refuse service for any number of reasons.
            No shirt? No shoes? = ICKY
            NO SERVICE. Suck it up, butter cup.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            But in areas where sexual orientation is a protected class — you can’t deny service on THAT basis. Just like you can’t deny service based on religion or skin color. There is no constitutional right to break the law.

          • Paul Hiett

            The funny thing is, Matt, of the protected statuses, only one is a choice.

          • The Last Trump

            Exactly. No breaking the law protecting the free exercise of religious beliefs. Never been a problem for these business owners until today. Not Christianity’s fault our sick and twisted society of debauchery and depravity keeps changing the definition of marriage and the growing list of protected “classes” (blech – like sodomy is a class!). Please forgive these people for not being spineless and altering their dignified and virtuous core beliefs and traditions with the ever changing winds of political correctness! What a joke!
            I’ll stand with those people, thank you very much. I’d rather stand for something dignified like traditional marriage and family than fall for everything like your “in” crowd today. Enjoy!

          • Paul Hiett

            By the way…ancient Rome established the “one man, one woman” marriage scenario. Bet you didn’t know that about your own religion.

          • The Last Trump

            By the way, WRONG. Again. *sigh*
            That would have been our Creator, silly goose.
            He goes back just a liiiittle bit further than the Romans.
            You know, the one who designed us male and female? With great complexity and purpose? Reproduction?
            Never mind. Forgot who I was talking to. Liberal left right?
            Nothing created everything. But with astounding complexity of design and purpose for no apparent reason whatsoever, and all that…yikes! Okey dokey.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            It certainly was a problem for religious people before today. Check on Maurice Bessinger and his restaurant where he was claiming that his religious freedom gave him the right to not serve black people.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, and many of the Nazis were homosexuals. What’s your point?
            You wanna play that game do you? Paint everybody with the same strokes based on the actions of various individuals?
            Slavery was ended thanks to Christians with troubled consciences.
            What, you thought the liberal left sociopaths cared about black slaves?
            Puh-lease.

          • MattFCharlestonSC

            You claiming that Christians have never had similar problems to the ones they are having today is false, check your history. Also, most Nazis were Christian — you really do like to selectively see the facts don’t you?

          • The Last Trump

            Keep dreaming loon.

          • MisterPine

            No shirt and no shoes while in the shop present unsanitary conditions whereby service may be denied. You can’t refuse service based on what you imagine your would-be customers do in the bedroom or because your book of Bronze Age mythology instructs you to hate.

          • The Last Trump

            Hmm, I think I’ll start a men’s club too and EXCLUDE half the population based on GENDER! Just because I can!
            AND I’ll make them wear a TIE! Maybe even a JACKET!
            Owning a business sure is fun! So much CONTROL!
            Keep trying, pal.
            You’ve got more holes in your story than this site has trolls!
            (and that’s a lot!)

          • MisterPine

            Would you be excluding based on an actual good reason, or because of faith-based hatred?

            The only holes here are the ones in your head, because you’re trying desperately to defend the indefensible, and all because your religion tells you to. I think most people, if their religions asked them to do something hateful and ridiculous would abandon them. But not you. (shrug) Sucks to be you, I guess. Enjoy your hate.

          • The Last Trump

            Yes I’m a hateful one!?
            Must hate women, shirts with no ties, men without jackets, feet without shoes…
            Please. Take your tired and old liberal leftist sick and twisted attitude of disagreement EQUALS HATE and peddle your poor arguments elsewhere. Nobody’s buying what your selling here.

          • MisterPine

            Yup, here’s an example of how not hateful you are:

            “Either the folks who are sodomizing each other are right or they’re wrong.”

            Real sweet. Keep it up.

          • The Last Trump

            You see hate there? You need help, pal.
            Your world view is little slanted towards hate.
            Like every liberal leftist.
            I’ll bet you call the murder of children “pro choice” too, don’t you?
            Sicko.

          • MisterPine

            LOL.

            “I’m not a hater, you abortion-pushing, liberal leftist sicko.”

            Tell me what sodomizing has to do with the subject at hand. If you can make it somehow relevant, which we both know you can’t.

          • The Last Trump

            GET HELP.
            🙂

          • MisterPine

            Help for what? For being liberal?

            lib’er-al, 1. Possessing or manifesting a free and generous heart; bountiful. 2. Appropriate and/or fitting for a broad and enlightened mind. 3. Free from narrowness, bigotry, or bondage to authority and control. 4. Any person who advocates liberty of thought, speech or action.

            Sign me up.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. That must be an old definition.
            Going to have to update and scratch off the last two for sure.
            And then add:
            “to hate with passion, to have narrow mindedness regarding irrational beliefs favoring climate change, evolution, absolutely nothing creating absolutely everything, sexual perversion, intolerance of other beliefs, trolling of websites of said others to enforce narrow minded “hive” beliefs of political correctness on others with inappropriate attempts at authority and control, to deny the right to life, to deny free thought, free speech and free action.”
            Yup. Todays Liberal.
            What a destructive ideology directly responsible for the fall of the United States of America. What a cancer to a once great nation.
            Count me out!

          • MisterPine

            Do you think being a Christian supremacist gives you the right to re-write the dictionary?

            Do you think that allowing homosexuals to marry and to shop in places where they will not be denied service because of their orientation is “hating with passion”? If so, can you please explain?

          • The Last Trump

            Get help, Pine. You’re on a Christian website trying to “convert” Christians to debauchery. Seriously, dude. Get help.
            (And when you go to get help, remember to wear a shirt AND tie. Just in case…;)

          • MisterPine

            “trying to convert Christians to debauchery”

            By urging them not to hate on gay people? That’s bad?

          • The Last Trump

            Nobody here hates gay people.
            But there’s no shortage of gay supporting Christian hating trolls.
            Give it up. Nobody’s buying your hate labelling BS.

          • MisterPine

            You don’t hate gay people? Didn’t you call them sodomites? Haven’t you called them perverts on this very forum?

            How does my telling you to leave them alone make me a “Christian hating troll?” I thought it just made me a decent human being.

            I think I can safely say you’re a liar now, because I’ve shown you how you’ve made hateful statements and how I haven’t made any.

          • The Last Trump

            Hee, hee, hee! You actually believe your own nonsense, don’t you?
            If I describe sodomy as “sodomy” I’m a hater!
            If I call a sexual behaviour “perverse,” I’m a hater!
            AND now I’m a liar!
            Boy, when you said you were a liberal, YOU WEREN”T KIDDING!
            You’re as liberal as they come. You poor soul.
            Too funny!

          • MisterPine

            I’ve been reading some of your older posts. I notice you do the “too funnys” and the “hee hee hees” a lot. May I ask, is this an attempt to draw attention AWAY from the things you actually say? Are all your detractors so endlessly hilarious to you that they send you into gales of laughter even when they’ve proven you don’t know how to tell the truth?

            Case in point: you DON’T describe sodomy as sodomy, you describe homosexuals as sodomites. So, you are a liar. You DO understand that a huge percentage of straight people engage in sodomy, don’t you? And yet only the homosexuals are on the receiving end of your hateful slurs?

            This has nothing to do with being liberal. This has to do with honestly, but I think you’re so severely uneducated on what you’re raging about that you honestly don’t even REALIZE you are a liar.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. I think you’ve seriously gone over the deep end, my friend. I seem to have reduced you to a babbling id!ot!!
            TOO FUNNY!! (driving you freakin crazy, eh! Keep responding, dum, dum. HEE HEE!!) Seriously, though. Stalking people on Christian websites. Desperately attempting to get people to abandon their traditional marriage and family convictions in favour of highly controversial sexual perversion. Labelling everyone who doesn’t go along with your ideological bullying “haters”. Falsely attempting to “school” everybody on what business can and can not do, to further push your LGBT agenda. Filling up on hate at fstdt.com (?) and attempting to threaten people with public ridicule and discrimination!? WHO does that?! GET HELP. You’re not well.
            (Yeah, I’m going to rush on over there to see what a bunch of infantile, liberal hate mongering Nazis have to say to each other about anything!? Riiight. What are you guys, twelve?)

            Your nonsense doesn’t work on me, friend. You showing up here at a Christian website to ceaselessly attack good people over their religious beliefs is called bigotry. Not to mention hateful and intolerant. Never mind inappropriate. “Live and let live”, remember? Don’t see the Christians rushing on over to the gay websites. So what are you doing here? Are you actually so very afraid that the Christians will manage to change the laws BACK to what they were that you are pissing your pants with worry, so much so that you can’t bear to tear yourself away from this Christian website? What a sad existence you have. I feel so very sorry for you. But not sorry enough to sit idly by while you bully people around here and peddle your hate. Look forward to hearing from me frequently. I’ll be here to expose your shameful behaviour for the community to see. With pleasure. You and Paul and all the rest of the truly hateful bigots who’ve made it their mission in life to haunt this website and harass Christians. Count on it. 🙂

            Anyway, glad to hear I’ve made ANOTHER fan! Nice to hear you’re going over all my posts. Pay close attention now and take lots of notes. There may be a small glimmer of hope for you yet, Pinemeister! You know, you don’t have to live your life bouncing back and forth from hateful, intolerant liberal websites like your “std’s.com” to stalking Christian websites to tell everybody who doesn’t think like you that they are hateful bigots. Cause that would be, you know, HATEFUL and BIGOTED you hypocrite! You LGBT trolls! All the same. And same tired, infantile tactics. SEEK OUT Christians, attack their beliefs and cry “Hate! Hate!” when they disagree with your depravity and perversion. Shameful. Again, GET HELP.

            And by all means, keep posting. Everybody here can see what you’re all about with each rambling, incoherent and intolerant post after the other. Real attractive. The Christians here must just be lining up to abandon their faith to buy the nonsense you’re selling, eh MisterPine? Yeah, didn’t think so.

            Not surprising.
            Oops! Almost forgot. HEE HEE! TOO FUNNY! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            “Hee hee hee!” SQUAWK! Fundie wanna cracker! I don’t give a toss how much you want to sound like a raving drooling moron. Play your game, I prefer instead to focus on facts. What you say, what you deny saying, and what you have in common with the KKK in terms of your similar stance on homosexuals. It’s a lot of really concerted effort you’re putting in to try to keep people you don’t know from being happy in their private lives which do not concern you in any way, and you have the gall to suggest that this is what your “savior” wants you to do. My God, you’re crazy as hell.

          • The Last Trump

            Says the loon ON THE CHRISTIAN WEBSITE! AGAIN!!
            Who refuses to leave Christians alone, but rather harass and attack their religious beliefs, calling them haters and bigots for supporting traditional marriage! How bigoted, hateful and intolerant of you. Please come back any time and share your ‘love’ with us.

            ‘It’s a lot of really concerted effort you’re putting in to try to keep people you don’t know from being happy in their private lives which do not concern you in any way’

            It’s absolutely surreal that you are actually so blinded by your own hate and hypocrisy to see that you are doing exactly what you are admonishing Christians not to do. Man, “the concerted effort you’re putting in to try to keep people you don’t know from being happy in their private lives which do not concern you in any way’ BY SEEKING OUT CHRISTIAN WEBSITES AND ABUSING CHRISTIANS WITH YOUR HATEFUL ACCUSATIONS AND INTOLERANT BIGOTRY IS ASTOUNDING. Incredible how well that you describe your own shameful behaviour. Maybe you should listen to you and stop that bigoted behaviour that you dislike so much? You think?
            No? Yeah, I didn’t think so. Liberals are always do what I say, not as I do. And who’s kidding who, right?

            You do seem to get off on it. How very KKK of YOU! Hmm?

          • MisterPine

            So you’re making homophobic and hateful statements left and right and people are standing up to you for it, calling you out, and you don’t like it? Well just cry me a river, then, big guy.

            I love this: “This is a CHRISTIAN website, how dare you show up here and accuse us!” Not accusing ALL of you, just the ones who have the gall to hate on gay people, which you are doing. Which, I should remind you, puts YOU in the company of the KKK. Not me.

            Let’s get this straight, shall we?
            YOU are the hater. Not me. I don’t hate anyone, but I have no patience for so-called “Christians” who deny basic human rights to gay people and have the nerve to say it’s what their “relationship with God” (because it’s NEVER a religion with people lik eyou) demands.
            YOU are the intolerant one. Let’s count the ways, shall we? You don’t tolerate gay people in “Christian” shops. You don’t tolerate gay people getting married. You don’t tolerate atheists on your precious websites.
            YOU are the bigot. Whenever simple facts are given to you, you wave them away and ignore them. Which doesn’t negate those facts, and if you continue to use “sodomy” as a reason to hate gay people but completely forgive straight people for doing the same thing, you are a BIGOT. There’s simply no other word to use.
            YOU are the one with shameful behaviour. If all the examples above aren’t enough, you’re also a science denier, Mr. Evolution-Means-Nothing-Exploded.

            Maybe you should leave this place and find one for fundies only? People who think the world is 6000 years old, hate gay people, deny evolution, and can’t wait for the rapture since this rotten old world is so evil and corroded with sin?

          • The Last Trump

            Yikes! Rant and rave much, Pinester?
            Thank you again, oh tolerant loving leftist fascist, for coming to this website to call US intolerant, hateful, bigots!
            Ahh, you poor clueless bugger! You really don’t know how crazy you are. That’s the liberal left for you. Beat you over the head repeatedly with their intolerance and hateful bigotry WHILE ACCUSING YOU of intolerance and hateful bigotry!
            And the hypocrisy award of the year goes to …MIsterPine & CO.!!
            Too funny Pine! You sick Christian bashing fascist you.
            (Put that on your l0ser website for your fellow fascists to giggle about like little girls. Hater. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Do you always talk to people like you’re a patronizing teacher? Not just to me, but everyone here?

            There are very few people here I’d call hateful and intolerant bigots, but yes, you made the cut, so congratulations. Might have something to do with, oh, I don’t know, maybe the things you say?

            I’m not going to engage you on this imaginary hateful bigotry which I’m NOT spouting, I’ll focus my energy instead on pointing out your own hate and hypocrisy. Such as complaining vigorously about perverts and sodomites and denying their right to marriage while, UNBELIEVABLY, in the same breath, insisting you hate nobody. Right, because that charged language is just fine to use against people you find peachy. I mean, my God, you’re the worst liar ever.

            Maybe you should act more like a Christian and less like a member of the KKK?

          • The Last Trump

            WOW! TWO responses to the same post!
            You’re doubling down now are you? Arguments not going so well for you so your just going to do ALL the talking and leave me out! Hee, hee!
            Understandable. You might have better luck debating yourself.
            Cause let’s face it, you’re just not that good at it. 😉

          • MisterPine

            Incidentally, there’s no such thing as a “leftist fascist.” Fascists are right wing, like yourself. Also I only came to call YOU a hateful and intolerant bigot by the way, not everyone else here. Maybe you shouldn’t say hateful and intolerant things on a public message forum.

          • MisterPine

            By the way, that’s a lot of screaming frenzied capital letters in there for someone so intent on proving to the world that I’m so hilarious. Smooch.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Why don’t you take your fight to the Sovereign God who made the rules. He is God, and you are not, just in case you were wondering.

          • MisterPine

            I’m not the one fighting, you are. You are the one trying to hate and oppress homosexuals. I’m only defending them. And you are not God either, so maybe you should stop speaking as though you are.

          • The Last Trump

            “I’m not the one fighting, you are!”
            Don’t look now, intolerant one. But I think you just had a fight!
            Too funny, Pine. Too funny! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Is that what I did? Do you think you are mentally competent enough to make a judgment like that? Yeah, yeah, “too funny” – say it enough times and maybe people will believe everything thrown your way is a knee slapper.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh oh. Is somebody not having fun again?
            Tantrum time again, Pinester? Is this really what you came all this way from LGBT central to say to us here at the Christian News?
            Disappointing, pal. Pretty disappointing.
            (Sooo…that would be NOT funny, in case you were keeping score:)

          • MisterPine

            If you take the time to re-read, all tantrums up to this point have been yours.

          • The Last Trump

            Thought I was the one doing all the laughing and knee slapping?
            Make up your mind, pal. Pick a position already.
            You’re all over the map.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            The definition of liberal used to have some good connotations. Kinda changed the meaning, just as the word “gay” has changed, wouldn`t you say?

          • Peter Leh

            “Like every liberal leftist.”

            there it is. the real reason.. politics 🙂

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            The only haters are the homosexuals who are deliberately targeting Christian businesses to destroy their livelihood and force them either to deny God’s clear will or suffer loss at the hands of these perverted, intolerant hypocrites who pretend they are the victims when it is clearly just the opposite.

          • The Last Trump

            And seek out Christian websites to do battle.
            What a bunch of attention starved loons!

          • MisterPine

            “Deliberately targeting Christian businesses”, REALLY? Did you REALLY say that? So a gay couple walks in and orders a cake from a bakery (whose job it is to make cakes), are told their business is not welcome based on what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom, and that’s TARGETING A CHRISTIAN BUSINESS? How? They weren’t targeting anything. They wanted a cake.

            Who is REALLY being “targeted” here? Who is the “intolerant” one? Serve your customers without judging and oppressing them and there will be no issues.

            Turning the tables to make the people being oppressed the oppressors makes you look dishonest in the extreme.

          • Peter Leh

            mens clubs can have private registrations.

            stick the SOS website for the rules a regulations before you start your business. 🙂

        • Peter Leh

          “I’m trying to figure out what’s so hateful about having to find another bakery for your wedding cake…”

          Well we have tried that before, remember?

          the reason there are protected groups is when given a chance those in power could not behave. 🙂

    • Paul Hiett

      Muffin…

      • The Last Trump

        Cupcake?

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    ““This is a bill that in ordinary times would not be controversial, but these are not ordinary times,” he remarked. “I want to make it clear that Arkansas wants to be a place of tolerance.””

    So, in normal times he wants Arkansas to be a place of intolerance? Or is he saying that tolerance is only important because these are not ordinary times? In “ordinary times” is intolerance OK?

    ““The homosexual lobby is not interested in tolerance. They are not even interested in acceptance. They have had both for decades,” writer “Streiff” commented. “What they are after is celebration and the eradication of Christian (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion. They are focused on driving religion into a space confined to a single building for a hour or so each week.””

    Oh, please. Talk about hyperbole.

  • Paul Hiett

    “Yeah, hey uh, Pence…yeah it’s Hutchinson down here…say uh…that whole religious freedom thing? Should I sign it? Yeah, I wouldn’t mind another term…oh…OH. OH crap, ok, thanks!!!!”

    • The Last Trump

      “Hutchison?…heavens NO! Not if what you want is just another term.
      If you care to make a stand for what’s right, then maybe. If you are bold enough to suffer the persecution that comes from making the tough, and the right choices than, yes. If you care that one day you will have to stand before Almighty God and give an account for yourself, then absolutely. But for just another term? Don’t sign it! Your political career will be over. The militant, hateful and intolerant bullying you will be up against from the LGBT community will prove too much to bear for just another term. You’re welcome.”

      • Paul Hiett

        Why do you think he didn’t sign it? Why do you think Pence is reworking his? Why do you think so many companies and people are pulling out of Indiana right now?

        • The Last Trump

          Exactly! (?)

          Um…that was the part,

          “Your political career will be OVER. The militant, hateful and intolerant BULLYING that you will be up against from the LGBT community will prove too much to bear for just another term”

          Soooo…….
          Yeah.

          • Paul Hiett

            Sad it takes something like that to get people to treat others with a little respect.

          • The Last Trump

            Here’s a little tip.
            Hate and intolerance doesn’t get ANYBODY respect!? Hello?
            What’s truly sad is that there are people who would behave such just to try to get their own way. Bullying certainly has its place. Seems to work, doesn’t it? Too many spineless cowards today.
            For now. But folks are beginning to wake up.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yep, and the hate and intolerance put forth by the state of Indiana is reflected in how many people are speaking out against it.

          • The Last Trump

            Wrong again, intolerant one. No hate. No intolerance.
            PROTECTION for those currently being bullied by the intolerant.
            As evidenced by all the bullying, I mean, speaking out against it.
            Keep trying, pal. Nobody’s buying what you’re selling. Too stinky.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh that’s right…let’s call it “protection”. Nice euphemism for your hate. Might as well just call it what it is, after all.

            http://www.theonion.com/articles/indiana-governor-insists-new-law-has-nothing-to-do,38330/

          • The Last Trump

            I love you too, Paul!
            Thanks for coming to the Christian News daily to call us all haters.
            I forgive you, brother!
            You poor, misguided soul. I know you can’t help yourself. With the liberal left running the show today, far too many are turning out like you. Won’t be long until you “tolerant” types who can’t tear themselves away from Christian websites will be foaming at the mouth with excitement calling for our arrest and execution. Get rid of all the “haters” and make the world a “better” place, right? And you think you’re on some kind of moral high ground. Sad.

          • MisterPine

            You could just quit denying rights to homosexuals, then no one would call you a hateful bigot anymore. Because you wouldn’t be one. Too hard?

          • The Last Trump

            Sure you still would. You can’t help yourself, you poor left leaning liberal. Anyone who disagrees with you is a hater by default, silly.

          • MisterPine

            Are your blistering, raging rants intended to be anything other than hilarious? Is taking the inconvenient facts, brushing them aside and screaming names at your opponents (and there’s enough of them on this one page alone to fill a shopping basket) something intended to divert people from the subject at hand?

          • The Last Trump

            Oh oh. Somebody’s arguments aren’t going so well!
            This is the part where your “argument”? falls apart entirely and you just mud sling and have a melt down, huh?
            I’ll leave you to it. Tantrums aren’t very attractive.
            As you were, hater.

          • MisterPine

            Tantrums LOL.
            Your hallmark, it would seem, based on the postings on this page alone.
            My arguments are rock solid, you haven’t disproved a single one. You haven’t even addressed most of them, you’re too busy firing off every derogatory epithet you can think of. And the worst one you can come up with is “liberal”.

          • The Last Trump

            Um….sure.
            Ok there “Rock Solid”.
            Whatever you say, pal. You won!?
            Come and collect your trophy!!
            (Hee, hee! Guy’s killin’ me!)

          • MisterPine

            Yeah, yet again with the “hee hees” and “you’re killing mes”. Let’s see who’s laughing after your idiotic posts have been immortalized on fstdt.com. Be sure to read the comments you get, won’t you? Given how funny you find the people who point out you have your head lodged up your butt, you should be in hysterics. Even after they tell you how wacko your beliefs are.

  • MisterPine

    ““What they are after is celebration and the eradication of Christian (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion.”

    I love how they always make it out that homosexuals are trying to eliminate Christianity. As if anyone who’s just trying to live their life in peace would carry around such a ridiculous and petty agenda.

    Tell you what Christians, maybe if you stop attacking gay people with your holier-than-thou “morals,” they’ll stop fighting BACK. Homosexuals would have no interest at all in anyone who wasn’t trying to make their lives miserable. But of course this is all about the poor Christians being persecuted yet again.

    • BravesFan

      If gays are trying to live their life in peace, why are they targeting Christian businesses and suing them into oblivion? If you just want to live in peace, why not PEACEFULLY find another vendor?

      • Paul Hiett

        What makes you think they are “targeting” these businesses?

        • BravesFan

          When a phone call was made to one of the places regarding hosting a lesbian wedding, the call was already being recorded.

          • Peter Leh

            they can target mine. and i wont be cited. why can i do it and others cannot?

      • MisterPine

        Just cheerfully accept the slap in the face and the human rights violation? While so-called Christians discriminate?

        • BravesFan

          So, having to find another photographer is a human rights violation? Meanwhile, ripping babies limb from limb isn’t? You libs have funny ideas.

          • MisterPine

            Denying service to someone based on your concerns about what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms = human rights violation. Nice deflection. What’s this about ripping babies limb from limb? More paranoia?

          • BravesFan

            What, you think abortions are gentle?

          • MisterPine

            No, but what does it have to do with denying service to homosexuals?

          • BravesFan

            Human rights. Try to keep up.

          • MisterPine

            How am I supposed to “keep up” with some random idea you toss into the conversation midway and expect me to make sense of? When did I mention abortion? When did I even offer my stance on it?

          • BravesFan

            Human rights. You are alleging that it is a violation of human rights to have to find another bakery for a wedding cake. I take the human rights angle and say that having to find another bakery is NOT violating a human right, it is a mere inconvenience.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            No point trying to argue with liberals…they are too far gone to understand simple things most people get.

          • MisterPine

            Then why is the law siding with us?

          • MisterPine

            Why should the first bakery have the right to discriminate in the first place? It’s all very easy to say “just find another one” but that neatly overlooks the fact that the first one broke the law.

  • The Last Trump

    Wow. That didn’t take long at all. You guys are FAST! And look, it’s a SWARM!
    Haters…and bigots…AND trolls! Oh my! Glad to see everybody could make it.
    (I know, right! Like you’d miss it! Who am I kidding? Where else would YOU be? 😉

    You intolerant bunch must check back here every couple of minutes or so, huh?
    Do you swarm together to different sites or just buzz around the Christian News until you’ve commented on EVERY post? Can’t let anybody have a difference of opinion, eh!

    Hee, hee! What a bunch of loons! Nothing better to do than troll a Christian website “religiously” (pun intended) crying “live and let live”!? Um… Hello! Too funny!
    Keep up the “good” work hypocrites. You’re bound to find somebody around here who is fool enough to fall for your hypocritical nonsense. Eventually. No?

    • Paul Hiett

      Look at you, all excited about atheists posting!

      • The Last Trump

        And LOOK at you! An atheist who lives on a Christian website, posting!
        To everyone! All day! Every day!
        Yeah, that’s normal.

        • Paul Hiett

          Glad I could make your day!

          • The Last Trump

            You’re always good for a laugh Paul (and a head shake).
            Every time I read your posts!

            Every Christian should start their day with a post or two from Paul so they, too, can leave for work with a smile on their face! It’s a great way to start your day. The read a, “Paul Hiett post” way!

            Ridiculously funny and “outlandish” stuff! 😉

          • MisterPine

            That’s funny, because I enjoy Paul’s posts. They’re factual, free of hyperbole and self-congratulatory high-fiving and hate. Unlike yours. What DOES make me shake my head is someone who thinks that his faith gives him the right to oppress others legally.

          • The Last Trump

            I wouldn’t call your liberalism “faith”, but hey, if the intolerant hateful shoe fits, you wear it proud MisterPine!
            Find help yet? No? Just going to keep posting intolerant nonsense on the Christian website? Ok.
            You would like Paul wouldn’t you? He is a funny troll!
            Two peas in a pod. (Two bees in the swarm?…You get the picture)
            And both of you haunting Christian websites. Sure, that’s normal.

          • MisterPine

            All right, you’ve dodged every other questions I’ve posted, let’s see if you can answer one simple question:

            Who am I intolerant and hateful of? What’s my crime? Try to contain your answer to 15 words or less, I don’t need to read any more of your paranoid schizophrenic manifestos. A short and simple answer will do.

            Also, does it really need to be pointed out to you that you have the same right to deny a non-Christian from posting on a Christian forum as you do to deny homosexuals the right to shop in a store? That is, none at all?

          • The Last Trump

            GET HELP, liberal hater of Christians!

            Who’s dodged what now? Are you ok? Somebody needs to scroll back up and re read all the posts they got burned in. Selective hearing, eh? Shocker.

            Talk about paranoia! Nobody said you couldn’t bring your intolerance of Christians to this site. (We’d just prefer you didn’t 😉 Always the victims, you liberals! Boo hoo!

            It’s just sad that folks like you feel the perverse need to seek out Christians to inappropriately attempt to “re-educate”. Save it. It’s kind of pathetic. But hey, if you don’t mind looking attention starved and desperate, have at it.

            I can’t even imagine wasting my time inappropriately hanging out at The Gay Times, a way up on my high horse, explaining to all the homosexuals how wrong and hateful they all are! Imagine!

            But then, I’m not liberal. Or a jerk.

            Now I’d love to stay and keep talking all about YOU, but I really do have better things to do, my attention starved troll of Christian websites. And, I’m sorry but I’m just not that into you. 🙁

            So spread your hate and intolerance around, troll. As usual.
            I’ve had my fill from you for one day. And there’s so many other trolls who need to share their hate with me! Can’t wait!

            Later 😉

          • MisterPine

            More questions, based on your latest rant:

            1) Do you not think you should be the one getting help when you are the one imagining that you’re being oppressed, when you are the one oppressing people who just want to live their lives in peace and partake of regular businesses like bakeries and so on? Do you have the nerve to say that denying business to a homosexual of this kind is not hate? Is not discrimination?

            2) When you are being raked over the coals and being proven a liar, is it really a good idea for you to say others are being “burned”?

            3) Have you once, successfully, proven I’ve said a single thing that shows I am intolerant to Christians?

            If you want to go to a gay site and try to make the kind of crap you’re posting here float, be my guest. I’m already working on making you a star at fstdt.com. Interestingly, you’re on there already. Search for “The Last Trump” – someone immortalized you before I could.

          • The Last Trump

            ??
            What is this a trial? You liberals are too much!
            Can I play too, or is this a kangaroo court?

            1) Who did I oppress at the CHRISTIAN website (hee, hee!)
            2) I was raked over coals? Proven a liar? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
            Stop! You’re killin me! Or wait. You’re serious? Sorry.
            3) I was supposed to prove something? Your own posts have done that, silly. And your very existence here. Or are you claiming to be a Christian standing up for religious rights and freedoms? Exactly. Cut the crap, shall we?

            And wait….you intolerant, hateful, religious bigots actually put together a website where you can gather together to single out posts to hate on and discriminate against! What a great way to spend your time! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Wow! You liberals continue to come up with new ways to be intolerant and hateful.
            Bravo MisterPine! Enjoy your hateful website! Too funny!

            Ahh, you poor bugger. Don’t even know how crazy you are.
            Immortalize me! Hee, hee! What a kook.

          • MisterPine

            Yes, I GET it already “Hee hee.” “Too funny,” “Bravo.” Etc. etc.etc. You feel insecure, so you turn on the smug and self-satisfied act.

            OK, so if I understand correctly after reading around all your eye-rolling and deadpanning, you think I have oppressed Christians. How have I done that? By suggesting that maybe they shouldn’t hate on homosexuals? By suggesting that no one legally has the right to deny services to them? By accusing you of upholding your right to hate?

            How on EARTH is telling your brand of Christian not to oppress homosexuals oppressing you? Take your time on that one. You’re going to need it. “Hee hee hee”.

            “Raked over the coals” – yes. By Paul, and thoughtsfromflorida, and several others long before I showed up. They called you out as a liar long before I did.

            fstdt.com has been around for years, showcasing the unbelievable things said by fundamentalist Christians in their struggle against reality. No, it’s not my site. But some of the things you actually believe I think should be immortalized for their utter stupidity. “Hee hee hee.” So there’s a lesson to be learned here, don’t spout bigotry if you don’t want it to be put on parade.

            If I had to guess, probably the first thing they’ll go after you for is your blatant, glaring hypocrisy. Trying SO hard to cover up your hatred of gay people by accusing your opponents of the same thing…even where it makes no sense to do so.

            “Hee hee hee” indeed. Pat Robertson’s got nothing on you in the kook department.

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Probably getting paid to spout off, along with his buddies. Dealing with their nonsense gets really old. Heaping up straw men for the day of judgment.

  • LIFE – A Gift Divine

    Do you really want to know why Atheist’s are following the gay community so closely?

    Freedom for Religion Restoration act in some states.

    Would protect Christians from governments eager to advance the agenda that sexual rights are superior to religious liberty.”

    The site Red State made similar remarks on Wednesday, stating that homosexual advocates are using the bill as a way to ensure that Christians are forced to be partakers in another man’s sins (1 Timothy 5:22; Ephesians 5:7). While homosexuals are coming out of the closet, the article implies, Christians are being forced into the closet—or behind the four walls of their churches.

    “The homosexual lobby is not interested in tolerance. They are not even interested in acceptance. They have had both for decades,” writer “Streiff” commented. “What they are after is celebration and the eradication of Christian (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion. They are focused on driving religion into a space confined to a single building for a hour or so each week.”

    “The objection is not about discrimination because no sane person could think that is even a potential issue,” he said. “The objection is that Christians can’t be sued and bullied into celebrating homosexuality.”

    This very situation is becoming the atheist agenda. They lobby to eradicate Christian’s, (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion, and are focused on driving religion into a space confined to a single building for a hour or so each week. As Christians that speak out for Christ this type of agenda should be stopped, and the power of the Christian community needs to step up to the plate. Not to eliminate rights, but to stop Atheist’s from eliminating the freedoms of religion, be it Christians, Jews, Muslims etc.

    • Paul Hiett

      The hypocrisy from the Christian right is amazing in this situation. On one hand you claim the LGBT community is trying to “force” you into something you don’t want to do.

      Meanwhile, you hold up the Bible as your support to try and prevent them from marrying.

      Do you really not see it?

      • The Last Trump

        What hypocrisy?
        The Bible IS intolerant. Of sin. Christians do not support homosexuality.
        What we have here is a battle over right and wrong. Period.
        Either the folks who are sodomizing each other are right or they’re wrong. And traditional marriage? Gee I wonder! Big debate there.

        • Paul Hiett

          You really don’t see the hypocrisy in complaining that gays are trying to force you to comply with their lifestyle while trying to force them to comply with yours?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Some do…but don’t care. Some don’t see it as hypocrisy, because their chosen belief is “right” based upon their choosing it.

        • FoJC_Forever

          It is not hypocrisy to voice an opposition to those who would force their wretched sexual appetites upon others.

        • MisterPine

          Well, then, you are a moron to follow it, T-Rump. Funny, I had no issue walking away from hateful fundamentalism. You have chosen instead to embrace it. Curious.

          • The Last Trump

            Thank you Pinester! Your witness to my fundamentalist beliefs are high praise! I can only hope complimentary comments like yours that bear witness to my loyalty to the Word of God will benefit me on the day of judgment. You’re the best, you misguided loon you!
            And you thought that you were insulting me!
            Ah, the lost are too cute for words! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Yup, you’re a credit to your homophobic hate God. Well done. Why not take that cuddly message of bigotry to the streets and yell it in people’s faces with a bullhorn, Westboro style?

          • The Last Trump

            OK. THAT was funny!
            My homophobic hate God! Cuddly message of bigotry! Bullhorn! HA!
            Loved it! Laughed out loud!
            Need to get to bed. Stalk you later, hater!
            (Too funny, Pinester! Seriously funny stuff! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Fact: You want to deny homosexuals the rights that other people have. And you do so based on your faith. And you’ve called them perverts and sodomites but in the same breath claim not to hate them. Cutting through your BS to get to the actual point, we see exactly what you’re all about.

          • The Last Trump

            ACTUAL FACTS:
            I haven’t denied anybody anything. Ever.
            You don’t know what I want, but that sure doesn’t stop sick liberals like you from trying to tell me what I DO and DO NOT want. Save it.
            Your sickness in calling anyone who disagrees with you “haters” is appalling and disturbing. YOU NEED HELP. Debate doesn’t include calling all of your opponents hateful bigots. GET HELP.
            What I’m actually about is very clear, as I have spelled it out many times. Support traditional marriage. Do NOT support gay unions.
            If that bothers you, TOO BAD. Suck it up princess. And stop your hateful and intolerant bigotry. It’s ugly. And everybody here sees very clearly that THAT’S what YOU’RE all about. Very attractive.
            Convert anybody yet? No? I wonder why.

          • MisterPine

            Oh my God, you’re completely nuts. Completely, totally off your rocker.

            From your last message, word for word:

            “I haven’t denied anybody anything. Ever.”
            Then:
            “Do not support gay unions.”

            IF YOU DENY GAY UNIONS, YOU ARE DENYING SOMEBODY SOMETHING YOU TWIT.

            Get yourself into a doctor and get that brain aneurysm dealt with. You clearly can’t function on a message board.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. By not supporting something, to you, means I’ve denied somebody of it and I hate them. You’re sick. You need to stop posting and take your meds.
            I HAVE NOT DENIED ANYONE OF ANYTHING. Sorry you can’t grasp that with your twisted way of thinking. I also don’t support evolution. HAVE I DENIED YOU FROM DOING SO m0ron?
            I guess you are a hateful bigot eh Pine? You don’t support Bible following Christians who believe in Creation and traditional marriage so by your definition YOU ARE DENYING THEM OF IT!?
            Shameful.

      • LIFE – A Gift Divine

        It doesn’t matter to me if they marry or not. What I’m really trying to show is how the atheist is trying to emulate the LGBT’s agenda process. To me the LGBT community isn’t being discriminated against by me. The Bible really is about the love for everyone from the perspective of Jesus views. But there are scriptures that state that the body houses the spirit of God. If that is to be true than the Bible states that unnatural acts are themselves against their own bodies. You don’t believe in the Bible so that makes no sense to you. But to a Christian or Muslim it has huge implications. That is why both communities have difficulties with the moral implications. And I’m not saying that g or l don’t have morals. I’m saying that if they are born that way as genetics sometimes points out, that is different than someone who chooses that as a lifestyle choice. In that case the circumstances aren’t the same. Christians believe that it is an immoral act to choose that lifestyle. The laws of the land will decide based on these issues if they are discrimination or not, which is a separate issue altogether.

        • Paul Hiett

          I understand what you believe. Really I do…and believe it or not, I respect your beliefs. I also respect the beliefs of all religions, and the idea that here in the US, everyone should be free to believe what they want. No one religion should ever have the ability to tell others how to live, which is exactly what Christianity is attempting to do.

          If a business offers goods and/or services to the general public, then they are accepting that they may have to sell those goods/services to anyone who walks through the door, regardless of their religious affiliation, gender, race, and in some cases, sexual orientation. A business owner should not have the ability to pick and choose their customers just because their religious beliefs don’t agree with that customers lifestyle.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Thank you Paul I believe you do understand in some ways. Here is the rub as I see it. Let’s take the cake situation and business. The message that was wanted on the cake was promotion of the LG. A Christian cake maker really isn’t trying to make a selection of who to serve, in fact from what I have read recently this man and an organization may have in fact took their business to that place because they were Christians. Even if that is not so, Christians would not want to promote the idea of gays because of what the Bible tells us. If that same customer came in and said he wanted a birthday cake, sure I believe the person should get a birthday cake. That is the difference. Lifestyle choices even if your not gay have consequences. That is just the reality of the world both in the law of the land and outside of it.

          • Paul Hiett

            How much discrimination is legal then? Is it just Christians who can tell gays they won’t be served? Why then couldn’t Muslims not serve Jews or Christians?

            When we begin allowing intolerance of any kind, we take a huge step backwards in this country in terms of civil rights. We’re essentially at the same place that interracial marriage was in 1967 before it was legalized. Think about it…it was only 48 years ago that blacks and whites couldn’t marry. And guess which religion was at the forefront of that fight?

            Either we tolerate all discrimination, or none. I vote for none.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I agree with some portions of that comment. I have little tolerance of discrimination. It’s not that simple anymore, because you are seeing in motion individual states with their own versions of the Religious Freedom Restoration act. That is why I stated before that depending on where people are in their position on these matters it becomes a state by state set of laws based on the original federal laws. Any religion has rights too remember. ISIS kills Christians primarily, there is discrimination against the Mexican people and the children by people that live in Texas. Your scratching the surface of the issues surrounding discrimination. This is a much bigger pill than can be swallowed until everyone is unified in some way. Just look at all the comments. Look at the people like the dude that claims he is a Satanist and hangs around on a Christian news site just to play his little games. That is the mentality we all are having to come to grip on. I don’t see it changing soon. I wish it did. So I have to take a stand for my Christian faith. I can’t just go along as the wind blows so to speak.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “ISIS kills Christians primarily”

            I think if you investigate this, you will find that ISIS has killed many more Muslims than Christians.

          • Peter Leh

            yep there was a bombing of a mosque just last week

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Most of the Christians I speak of are Muslim. Coptic Christians seem to be the latest targets.

          • uzza

            “Most of the Christians I speak of are Muslim.”
            WHAT?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            A Muslim Christian? How is that possible?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Islam the religion of Muslims. My thought when saying that was to consider the Muslim population, instead of addressing each sect of the totality of Muslims, such as Kurds, Coptic’s, Egypt’s Christian community, Syria, etc. In that sense I use Muslim to describe a nationality not a religion.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Muslim is no more a nationality than Christian is a nationality.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            In the context of my message originally I was considering those that are from Egypt, Syria, Pakistan and other countries that have Christians. What would you call them if not Muslim? Islam is the religion of Muslims is that correct. I’m just asking since the word Muslim may not be correct. Any help along those lines would be appreciated.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I would call people who live in Egypt are Egyptian. Syria, Syrians. Pakistan, Pakistanis. I would not call them Muslim unless they were followers of Islam. Any more than I would refer to person who lives in the US as Christian, even though the majority of citizens in the US follow the Christian faith. I would call that person an American.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            What you you refer them to be? Islamists?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            People.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Ok than replace Muslim, with “a select group of people” (large group I might add)

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “live in the Middle East” would be accurate. As in:

            “Most of the Christians I speak of live in the Middle East.” rather than “Most of the Christians I speak of are Muslim.”

            One cannot be a Christian Muslim.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Thank you, I can accept that.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Happy to help.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            What would you call them? If not Muslim, then is their an acronym that is better suited? Oh I see where your going. I must not be able to generalize to make a point, to you I must be specific in every detail. I don’t work that way. If you do that’s fine as long as you understand what the context of the message is. I explained why I put the message into context. You seem to have understood. That is my point.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I made clear what I would call people from different countries. Only the citizens of those countries who are followers of Islam are Muslim. The others are not.

            “Muslim” is not an “acronym”.

            “I must not be able to generalize to make a point”

            You are free to do whatever you care to. However, it would be inaccurate to suggest that, by virtue of living in the Middle East, all citizens are Muslim. The Christians that are being killed in the Middle East are not Muslim. They are Christians.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            LOL, again Semantics. But thats fine.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            All conversation involves semantics.

            Why is it that you don’t seem able to admit when you made a mistake?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I just did, twice.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            In other threads, yes, you did.

          • The Last Trump

            I’ts like a “gay Christian”.
            Not bloody likely.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            It’s not at all like a “gay Christian”.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            So tell me…do you think that the baker is asking male/female couples if either of them has been divorced for reasons other than adultery, and then refusing the order if so?

            Do you think the baker, if asked to do a cake for a baby shower, is asking if the mother-to-be is married, and refusing the order if not?

            Do you think the baker, when asked to do a cake for an engagement party, is checking to make sure that the couple aren’t having sexual relations, and refusing the order if they are?

            Do you think the baker is checking to make sure that a couple is getting married in the eyes of the Christian god, and then refusing the order if not?

            All of those would be involving one’s self in a celebration that is against Biblical principles. If it is so very, very important for the baker not to involve him/her self in such things, wouldn’t those be reasonable questions to ask and reasonable basis for refusal?

            If not, then the application of Biblical principles is selective and nothing more than hypocrisy.

            “Lifestyle choices even if your not gay have consequences.”

            I agree. Owning a business is a choice. Offering certain products is a choice. Yet these business owners, despite knowing the law regarding owning and operating a business, don’t want to have to deal with the consequences of their choices. They want an exemption.

            I completely support the right of people to hold to whatever religious beliefs they care to. I support the right of people to conduct their personal lives in accordance with their beliefs. I support the right of citizens, with very few limitations, to share their beliefs. But to suggest that my personal beliefs serve as a sufficient basis for violating the law or for being above the law, is not reasonable.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Actually I don’t know much about their business other than what is stated in the article, so I would have to pass on that particular question. It also would depend on the divorce, if you read the Bible you’ll understand the conditions for divorce. I understand what your saying about the end of your comment. That is why I say that people have the right to their own business decisions even based on their faith. If the law is going to demand someone to put something violent on a cake for their own causes however, depending on what it says, the company might also report them to the authorities for promoting violence.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            While I can say for certain either, I would be shocked if she asked those types of questions.

            if you believe that people should be able to choose who they are going to serve and who they are not based upon their personal religious beliefs, then you should be working to overturn the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as well as all subsequent civil rights and anti-discrimination legislation.

            Since what is, and is not, a sincerely held religious belief is completely up to the individual, there would be no basis upon which to enforce anti-discrimination legislation, unless we want to the have the courts ruling on religious belief.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Not necessary contingent on the Freedom of Religion Restoration act. Religious beliefs are both individual and are groups of individuals. When complete groups get together for a common cause it does have an influence on laws. I believe you will see that influence at work in the next elections. I just read that of all the things people are concerned about in the next election, Religious Freedoms are the number one issue. If that is a fact, you will see a President with Christian values.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I just read that of all the things people are concerned about in the next election, Religious Freedoms are the number one issue.”

            Wow. That’s surprising. I’d be fascinated to see what poll that came from. Do you have that?

            Here’s what I’ve been able to find regarding what people are concerned about:

            http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm

            Religious freedom does not show on any of them.

            Here’s another one from March 5th – http://www.gallup.com/poll/1675/most-important-problem.aspx – again – forget being “number one” – Religious freedom is not an issue at all.

            Here’s another one – http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/importance_of_issues

            Can’t find it on there.

            So I am really anxious to see what you read that states that the number one concern of voters is Religious Freedom.

            “If that is a fact, you will see a President with Christian values.”

            What values would those be and how would the President translate those to affects on the entire population?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Here is a partial answer. Those that value prayer. I’ll try to find the article I spoke from in the mean time and look over your links. Thanks

            Despite record declines in religious affiliation, more Americans pray than 30 years ago. Why? Researchers say those who pray find prayer brings spiritual meaning and understanding.

            Despite record declines in religious affiliation, more Americans pray than 30 years ago. Why? Researchers say those who pray find prayer brings spiritual meaning and understanding.
            By the Monitor’s Editorial Board March 7, 2015

            As they have for decades, tens of thousands of Christians around the globe and of different denominations gathered March 6 for the annual, ecumenical “World Day of Prayer.” The event, which this year focused on the meaning of Jesus washing his disciples’ feet, drew little media attention. But so, too, do many other aspects of prayer.

            Take this little-noticed trend in the United States: Even though church attendance and religious affiliation have reached record lows, the percentage of people who pray at least once a day has actually gone up – from 54 to 57 percent – over the past three decades, according to the 2014 General Social Survey, which is funded mainly by the National Science Foundation. About 3 out of 4 Americans pray at least once a week.

            “The stability of prayer contrasts sharply with erosion on other measures of religious commitment,” commented the Washington Post in reporting the survey’s results. Even among young people, or the Millennials who have been far less church-oriented than their parents were at the same age, praying remains almost as frequent in their lives as older people.

            Another 2014 survey, done by the Christian group Lifeway Research, found about two-thirds of Americans say they pray at least once a month. More than a third of those who pray say they pray for their enemies or those who have mistreated them.
            Photos of the Day Photos of the weekend

            One researcher of prayer, Elizabeth Drescher at Santa Clara University, finds that among those who cite no religious affiliation, prayer is “the only traditional religious practice that continues to be seen as spiritually meaningful.”

            “Facebook pages focusing on prayer are among the most popular and engaging on the platform, and prayer activity is a robust substratum of activity on Twitter across religious traditions and ideologies,” she writes. “Likewise, hundreds of smartphone and tablet computer apps have been developed in the past five years to support the prayer practices of believers, seekers, and skeptics alike.”

            While many Christians pray to get something in their lives, Max Lucado, author of a new book “Before Amen: The Power of a Simple Prayer,” explains that the purpose of prayer is to ask God to do what is right, with humility and trust.

            “God hears our prayers and the power of prayer doesn’t depend upon the one who prays, but upon the One who hears the prayer,” he tells the magazine Christianity Today.

            A famous Anglican theologian, N. T Wright, explains that Jesus’s direction for prayer, as found in the Lord’s Prayer, is designed “to align oneself with his kingdom movement and to seek God’s power in furthering its ultimate fulfillment.”

            “The Lord’s Prayer is the means by which the church celebrates what has been accomplished already in Christ and strains forward for what lies ahead,” he writes.

            Christians and others who pray may not yet be following what the apostle Paul sought: to pray without ceasing and to be constant in one’s prayers. But the constancy and unceasing number of people in the US who do pray provides some evidence of the power of prayer in daily lives.

            Whether done in secret or in public, such as at a “prayer day,” prayer still commands the attention of the faithful, if not the media.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            According to an article written by an Atheist, he explains the realities of atheism in America today. Not a direct answer but may be of interest.

            http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I didn’t see anything in there regarding Religious Freedom being the number one concern of voters. Did I miss it?

            As a follow-up:

            “If that is a fact, you will see a President with Christian values.”

            What values would those be and how would the President translate those to affects on the entire population?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            sorry it took so long:

            Source: The Wire

            Pew Research released a new poll Monday breaking down Americans’ preferences for certain candidate attributes, like age, religion, and work experience. The results show what America is looking for in its next president: a straight, drug-free, faithfully monogamous, ex-military, evangelical Christian governor who is younger than 70 years old.

            A majority of respondents went with “wouldn’t matter” for most of Pew’s selected attributes (experience in D.C and government, plus religiosity being the exceptions), so 2016 is still anybody’s race. But there are qualities that saw a sizable difference between favorability and unfavorability, where respondents (to whom the attributes mattered) had a clear preference. It’s these categories that should draw the attention of any potential candidates for 2016.
            Pew

            The headline for Pew’s latest poll is that Americans no longer see extensive experience in Washington favorably – 30 percent said “many years” in D.C. would make them less likely to vote for a candidate in 2016, while 19 percent said it’d make them “more likely.” That’s a flip from six years ago, when 35 percent viewed Washington experience as a favorable attribute.

            Americans still want their candidate to have some experience in office, though, as 52 percent said they would be less likely to vote for a candidate who’d never held office. Which means Americans want their candidates to have government experience from somewhere outside of D.C. – the same percentage (44) see time as governor and time in Congress as better preparation for the presidency, and 33 percent said they would be more likely to vote for a candidate who’s been a governor (which is a good sign for Scott Walker).
            Pew

            Whether governor or senator, what else are Americans looking for in the perfect candidate? A big plus is military service, which boosts a presidential hopeful with 43 percent of the public, probably because of that Commander-in-Chief business. Some sort of belief in religion is seemingly mandatory, as 53 percent of Americans said they’d be less likely to support an atheist, and evangelical Christian has the slight edge, with 21 percent responding “more likely” to support versus only 9 percent for Catholic. Two-thirds of Americans said it wouldn’t matter if a candidate is gay or lesbian (up 15 percent in seven years), but 27 percent still say it’d make them less likely to support a candidate. And candidates are better off not having used marijuana (not that it hurt Obama too badly, though) and never having had an affair.

            A candidate’s gender wouldn’t matter too much, it seems, with 19 percent saying they’d be more likely to support a woman and 9 percent saying less (though liberals, at 40 percent, are much more likely to support a woman than conservatives at 10 percent), but age would – 36 percent said they’d be less likely to support a candidate 70 years of age or older.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Interesting poll. Most interesting was that on most issues, people didn’t seem to care too much one way or the other.

            How does that poll have anything to do with voters saying their “number one” concern is Religious Freedom?

            And, again:

            “If that is a fact, you will see a President with Christian values.”

            What values would those be and how would the President translate those to affects on the entire population?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            My take on it, is that people want a President with the value set that was described in the article. As for as being a President, I’ve never been one so it’s improbable that I could answer your last question. It does show that there is more interest in someone that is of a religious standing. So I’ll correct myself and put it into that context. Thanks for pointing that out.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I didn’t see a values set described in the Pew research. Did I miss it? The only mention of non-Catholic Christian religion was that 21% said that a candidate being an Evangelical Christian would result in their more likely to vote for that candidate, 17% said it make them less likely to vote for that candidate, while 58% said it would make no difference.

            Nothing about a description of a Christian value set. That was something you said. What Christian values are you speaking of? How would you imagine that things would be different (which would be the reason to choose one candidate over another) if there were a President with “Christian values”?

            “It does show that there is more interest in someone that is of a religious standing.”

            Actually, it shows that the vast majority – 75% – say that religious standing (at least as an Evangelical) is either a negative, or doesn’t matter.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I seriously doubt that Huckabee as an example would win the presidency based on his Evangelical premise. What do you consider to be Christian values, since your not a Christian. Christian values are based on judeo-christian belief systems that go all the way back to the founding of such things as our constitutional rights of freedom of religion, the freedom of religion restoration act of 1983, and the states laws concerning those acts. Just today as an example Obama said, “God bless the United States of America” Do you consider his statement to be combining religion and government because of that statement? Many other Presidents have said the same thing, in terms such as “God bless you all, and God bless the United States of America” Is that a difficult concept for you to take into consideration? How many Presidents have been of the Christian faith in America since George Washington? I’m referring to all the Presidents that have served. Do you think that had an impact on decision making while in office? Bush prayed after meetings with his cabinet. Is that offensive to you?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You brought up the issue of people electing a president with “Christian values”. I’ve asked several times what Christian values you are speaking of. I have yet to receive an answer. Once I do, I am more than happy to answer additional questions you have. But, as we have discussed in the past, I will not participate in a one-sided question and answer exchange.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I thought I answered that question. Christian values are those presented by Christ in the New Testament of the Bible.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            That is not an answer regarding what Christian values you were speaking of. That is citing a source for your belief.

            I’ll ask again: What “Christian values”, specifically, are you speaking of that you believe we may see in our next President?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            It certainly is an answer, I beg to differ with you.
            I’ll provide a link where you can discover for yourself what Christian values are all about. Just research the New Covenant and the message of Christ. It’s that easy to get your answer.

            http://biblehub.com/

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            It’s unfortunate that you are either unable or unwilling to, in your own words, articulate what you mean by “Christian values”.

            I’m not interested in looking to others for the answers. I was interested in your answer. But, alas, it appears that is not coming. Oh well.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Again, to not understand what I’ve explained is something that is no fault of mine. Maybe you can’t understand my answers because your not a Christian. Those that understand Christ would immediately understand what Christian values are. If you don’t understand, then make it clear you don’t understand. I will attempt once again to provide you with more information, although if you would just take a look at the Bible it’s self explanatory. Here, I will assist you in what I’ve been trying to explain: Read some of what Christ said, or all of it. That should be sufficient for what Christian values should be, and what I believe them to be.

            http://biblehub.com

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You have not yet articulated, in your own words, what you meant by “Christian values”. That is not hard to understand at all.

            Different sects of Christianity believe differently about what comprises “Christian values”. I was interested to know what you, in your words, believed them to be.

            Your choice to do so, or not.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            My words would be the reflection of the words of Christ. I’m not perfect enough to be able to live by all of those commands and gifts, but if you read the words of Christ, that is the value system that all Christians should if we are not, be living by.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            How would you determine if a candidate for president was one who had “Christian values”?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            By the way they speak. By their actions. Do they follow Christ. That would be the measuring stick under this scenerio.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            People have varying beliefs regarding what it means to “follow Christ”. Assuming that you would be applying yours – what would be some examples, in your own words, as to what actions you would be looking for?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Have you had some time to read the 4 gospels? I would quote directly from the Bible as to your questions, but it may more appropriate to ask you to spend some time, looking at the principles of following Christ. An example might be: “Take up your cross and follow me daily” A quote from Jesus.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            As I’ve said – people have varying opinions, based upon the gospels, as to what “Christian values” are. So, I’ll ask again: what would be some examples, in your own words, as to what actions you would be looking for?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I don’t agree. Christians follow Christ. I’m not going to do your homework for you. If you want the answer to your question read the 4 gospels. I have provided the link. That way you can be objective about what you read, instead of my opinion. Jesus is the answer

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I don’t agree.”

            Then why are there so many different sects of Christianity? Which one “really” follows Christ?

            You’re the one who said that you would look for “Christian values” in a presidential candidate. It’s not a question of me doing homework. It was your statement. If you can’t state what, in your view, are “Christian values”, then just say so. But don’t put your lack on me.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I agree with Paul on his statement if that is helpful.
            WASHINGTON – During a private prayer breakfast for pastors on Thursday, Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) told those gathered that the Constitution never meant that God must be removed from government, but that the government was not to interfere with the practice of religion.

            “The First Amendment says keep government out of religion. It doesn’t say keep religion out of government,” Paul told the approximately 50 persons gathered at the Capitol Hill Club in Washington D.C.. “So, you do have a role and a place here.”

            “I open the Senate each Wednesday morning, and we open it every day with a prayer,” he noted. “You have prayer in government. Religion is part of our daily life and a part of our government; it always has been.”

            According to CBN News, which recorded Paul’s comments during the breakfast, the event had been organized to present his views on faith, religious freedom and the role the Church plays in the government.

            During his talk, the Kentucky Senator told pastors not to look to Washington to solve all of the nation’s problems, but that change needs to happen from a grassroots gospel effort.

            “The moral crisis we have in our country—there is a role in trying to figure out things like marriage,” Paul said. “There’s also a moral crisis that allows people to think that there would be some sort of other marriage. So really there’s a role outside and inside government.”

            “I think the exhortation to change people’s thoughts has to come from the countryside—from everywhere outside of Washington,” he continued. “We’re the most disconnected city on the planet from the people, so don’t have a lot of faith in what’s going on up here.”
            Paul then reiterated statements he has made in the past, remarking that a spiritual awakening is needed in America.

            “I’ve said this before: We need a revival in the country,” Paul added Thursday. “We need another Great Awakening with tent revivals of thousands of people saying, ‘Reform, or see what’s going to happen if we don’t reform.’”

            As previously reported, throughout America’s early history, a number of the Founding Fathers issued proclamations calling inhabitants to prayer, including in 1798, when President John Adams proclaimed a national day of humiliation, prayer and fasting.

            “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him,” he wrote, “…this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities—the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity—are a loud call to repentance and reformation.”

            “[L]et us not forget the religious character of our origin,” American statesman Daniel Webster also declared during his famous “Plymouth Oration” in 1820, less than 50 years after the nation’s founding. “Our fathers were brought hither for their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political or literary.”

            “Let us cherish these sentiments,” he continued, “and extend this influence still more widely, in the full conviction that [it] is the happiest society which partakes in the highest degree of the mild and peaceful spirit of Christianity.”

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            No, it’s not helpful. What would be helpful is if you were to articulate, in your own words, what you view as being “Christian values”.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Again, I have given you the answer to those questions, both in my own words, and the words of others. I don’t see why you can’t grasp the concept. We are repeating the same things over and over again. I share the message that Paul Rand said. I believe he taps into what “Christian values” are. His words are better than how I could explain it, so I’ll just say Paul Rand’s words could have been my own.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            As you wish.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Thank you

    • thoughtsfromflorida

      “Do you really want to know why Atheist’s are following the gay community so closely?”

      I wasn’t aware that they were. What is the basis for your statement?

      “Would protect Christians from governments eager to advance the agenda that sexual rights are superior to religious liberty.”

      Who is attempting to suggest that sexual rights are superior to religious liberty? In what way?

      ” stating that homosexual advocates are using the bill as a way to ensure that Christians are forced to be partakers in another man’s sins”

      That is simply false. No one can be “forced” to partakers in “another man’s sins”.

      “Christians are being forced into the closet—or behind the four walls of their churches.” “What they are after is celebration and the eradication of Christian (or any other religion’s) moral theology from public discussion. They are focused on driving religion into a space confined to a single building for a hour or so each week.”

      Oh, please. Spare me the hyperbole. Government closed on Christian holidays. Stores selling merchandise for Christian holidays. Christians allowed to profess their faith with very few limitations. No Christian is being “forced into the closet”. No longer being a favored religion, or getting special treatment, or getting to restrict the rights of everyone based solely upon the religious beliefs of some, is not the same as being forced into the closet. Bunch of whiners because they aren’t getting to impose their beliefs on others. Poor Christians.

      “Waa, waa, waa. We aren’t getting our way anymore. We don’t get to tell others what they can and can’t do. People get to do things we don’t like. We don’t get treated special in the schools and other public venues. We don’t get to use taxpayer money to celebrate our holidays. We don’t like being treated as equal to other religions. We’re special. We’re Christians. We should get to do what we want. Waa, waa, waa.”

      The false persecution complex is tiresome and completely unwarranted.

      • LIFE – A Gift Divine

        Some of that is in quotes as statements made by someone else. Where I see the interest in the atheist following these issues so closely is it seems they feel similar. An example came from the article I quoted from, it was from the Huffington Post. I ask you this? If we are not being forced into a Christian service, why is it that atheist’s ask us not to share the word of God in public places and try to eliminate it from the public view? The truth is that Christians are the most persecuted peoples in the world today. Enough of that I want to share an article I just read concerning protections for atheists:

        People who do not believe in God are currently legally barred from holding office in seven states: North Carolina, Arkansas, Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. These statutes are, of course, unlikely to hold up in court, but atheists also face substantial hurdles at the ballot box, as a 2012 Gallup poll found that Americans are more likely to vote for Mormons, Muslims, or gay people than atheist candidates.

        Atheists have scored a few legal wins over the past few years, such as a federal district court in Oregon declaring in 2014 that Secular Humanism is a “religion” for the purposes of legal protection. In addition, last year advocates from across the country successfully pressured an Alaska town into guaranteeing atheists the right to deliver invocations at city council meetings, and several nonbeliever groups continue to push for the inclusion of a Humanist chaplain in the U.S.

        This post was updated to reflect that while the initial proposal for the legislation wanted to insert the phrase “religion or atheism,” the final legislation that passed yesterday reads “religion and nonreligion,” a broader term that includes atheists but also others who might be excluded from the atheist category.

        So all in all, the prospect of atheism following the issues of the LGBT are very real.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          “why is it that atheist’s”

          You are lumping all atheists together as if they all share the same views. That is incorrect.

          “ask us not to share the word of God in public places and try to eliminate it from the public view?”

          Please cite where there are atheists who are attempting to make it illegal for Christians to stand on street corners and share their views. Or stand in a public park and not share their views. Or stand on the steps of a courthouse and not share their views. Please cite where atheists are attempting to outlaw churches and places of worship from not being seen in public view.

          “The truth is that Christians are the most persecuted peoples in the world today.”

          In some places that is true. Most certainly not in the US.

          “In addition, last year advocates from across the country successfully pressured an Alaska town into guaranteeing atheists the right to deliver invocations at city council meetings, and several nonbeliever groups continue to push for the inclusion of a Humanist chaplain in the U.S.”

          And your issue with this, is?

          “So all in all, the prospect of atheism following the issues of the LGBT are very real.”

          I am unaware of any effort by LGBT groups to attempt to not make it illegal for Christians to share the word of God in public places and try to eliminate it from the public view. Do you have some examples of that?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            No, maybe I didn’t explain well what my intention was in that comment. I’m stating that the atheist is watching the results of LGBT’s success’s in order to emulate the process. I am at no point saying what issue’s I have, I’m pointing out what the strategy will be in the future for atheists who feel the necessity to remove religious symbols, “under God”, etc. I think you may be confusing LGBT and atheist. I don’t recall stating the LGBT is eliminating or trying to make it illegal for Christians. On the other hand I’m saying that the atheist has high hopes for removing Christians from public forums and the removal of religious Icons (Ex. The cross at the 9/11 memorial produced by the fallen debris of metal that came together like a cross) as a recent atheist group attempted to do. Of course they were denied that, but they are persistent in making atheism become the norm, like the gay agenda did only less than 15 years ago. They designed their agenda to address equal rights, then complain when a religious business won’t promote them (ex: the cake issue.). I think I’ve described my observations. You are certainly welcome to share yours as well.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Equal treatment under the law and protection from discrimination in housing, employment, and public accommodation based upon a trait – is already the norm and has been for a long time. That is the gay agenda.

            I’m unaware that atheists, as a group, have a particular agenda. Nor does the agenda some of them have related to them, as individuals, being treated equally under the law nor being subject to discrimination.

            I’m unclear on how atheists would utilize the 14th amendment’s protection of equal treatment under the law, which is the basis for lawsuits regarding marriage laws, as a device for achieving goals related to prohibiting governmental bodies – which represent all citizens of all faiths as well as no faith – from favoring the Christian religion.

            I’m also unclear regarding how atheists would put forth the argument that they are discriminated against in employment, housing, and public accommodation because of their lack of belief in a god.

            “They designed their agenda to address equal rights”

            Because that’s what it is – an issue of equal rights. Atheists face no such issues.

            Based upon that, I fail to see what steps certain atheists would take in the attainment of their goals that would be based upon the actions that gay people have taken.

            ” then complain when a religious business won’t promote them”

            No. They complain when businesses break the law. Do you believe that being Christian places a business owner above the law and that it is wrong for citizens to hold someone accountable to the law because they are Christian?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Do you feel compelled to support atheist’s and the LGBT community? Again the FRRA is setting the laws and it seems that most of the LGBT are getting their way. They should be glad they live in the U.S. and here is why.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Given that the vast majority of sexually active heterosexuals engage in sodomy, I would suggest that they are also very glad that sodomy is not a criminal offense.

            From the entry: “Most sodomy laws in Western civilization originated from the growth of Christianity”

            Yes, I am very glad that the laws of our nation are not determined solely upon the Christian belief system. Aren’t you?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            No.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            So you would prefer that the United States was a Christian Theocracy rather than a Constitutional Republic?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Let me put that into proper context: Lets use Nelson Mendela, Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., and a wide variety of others, that stood up against the “laws of the land” and thrown into prison without proper consideration for their beliefs. People are going to stand up and fight for what they believe. We as Christians who not only believe in God, but know that God and Christ are real, will always put Christ first, above all things. That is what you will see in the fight against pushing us into a little corner where we can’t or won’t be prepared to stand up in the name of Christ that all people might choose to be redeemed. Here is the message of Christ:
            12Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.

            Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar
            13Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words.
            14They came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay the imperial tax
            to Caesar or not? 15Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”
            But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”
            16They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
            “Caesar’s,” they replied.
            17Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
            And they were amazed at him.

            Apply that reasoning when speaking about who’s authority is who’s, in America or any country. Jesus is referring to the spirit, his kingdom is not materialistic. Jesus was the most discriminated man in the world, and it seems even more so today. So please, no more trappings about discrimination. It doesn’t set well with me. If it takes breaking man’s law in order to protect the laws passed down to us from Christ, then so be it. If prison will shut our mouths than we will minister there. You must realize that a total commitment to the commands of Christ could be torture for anyone that stands up for them. It’s been that way for a long time, and I doubt in my lifetime it will be any different.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            So was all that a “Yes, I’d prefer a Christian Theocracy to our Constitutional Republic.” or was it a “No, I wouldn’t prefer a Christian Theocracy to our Constitutional Republic”?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            There is no preference between the two, because they are interlinked. When I say interlinked judeo-christian principles were the guiding results as I see it in the design of the constitution and other acts. An Ex of other may be the preamble to the constitution. Under God is representative of those principles, that the atheist community would like to see removed. That is only one example of what atheism today wants to happen. I believe they think that it’s discrimination, and is why they watch the LGBT. Any effort to destabilize founded principles to me is destructive. That is why there is division, division that have never seen before in my lifetime. The battle is on. It consists of placing candidates in positions of power within the government to hold true to the foundations of religious freedoms. Paul Rand has it right. There can be no more removal of Icons of the major religions, especially Christian, because that is the majority of people that live in the U.S. We are frankly tired of being pushed into the corner and will fight for our freedoms. An example of the power of Christians, just take a look at the Pizza place and the contributions to them from Christians who have had enough of this catering to the LGBT. This has been blown out of proportion so badly, that people are threatening the people that ran the place by killing them, burning them, the attrocities that these people are under is exactly the type of thing Christians are going to battle against.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what a Christian Theocracy entails. It is not “interlinked” to a constitutional republic. They are vastly different.

            Here is the preamble to our constitution:

            “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

            No mention of God.

            “That is why there is division, division that have never seen before in my lifetime.”

            You must be very young, if you this is the most division you have seen your lifetime.

            “We are frankly tired of being pushed into the corner and will fight for our freedoms.”

            Oh, please. Spare me the unwarranted persecution complex. Being treated the same as other citizens and no longer having your particular religious beliefs promoted by the government or given preferential treatment, does not amount to “being pushed into a corner”. Like a petulant child pouting about having to share.

            “just take a look at the Pizza place and the contributions to them from Christians who have had enough of this catering to the LGBT.”

            Oh yes. The poor pizza owners. A few people (and I do not agree with their tactics) threatened them with physical harm. So, in response, and to show how devoted they are to the principles that Jesus taught, people gave them over $700,000. They will, no doubt, use that money to help the poor and the sick, as Jesus taught. i won’t be holding my breath for that.

            “is exactly the type of thing Christians are going to battle against.”

            You are going to battle against free speech?

            Try this on for size: Punishable by death; punishable by prison; punishable by castration; public calls for being put to death; public calls for being denied equal protection as citizens; calls for being put behind electric fences and left to die. All based upon Christianity’s view of homosexuality.

            I think the LGBT crowd has a little bit more fodder when it comes to being persecuted in the US than Christians do just because they have to share.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I stand corrected: This is what I’m referring to:
            indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

            If you grew up in the United States, you know that the Pledge of
            Allegiance has undergone a number of additions since its original
            version in 1892. Only 13 years after its formal adoption by the United
            States Congress in 1942, the final words were added to the Pledge,
            “under God” right after the words “one Nation.” Today, the Pledge of
            Allegiance reads:

            “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and
            to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible,
            with liberty and justice for all.”

            Since its addition in 1954, a number of organizations of varying
            atheistic backgrounds have spent enormous amounts of energy, time, and
            money to have the deistic phrase expelled from the Pledge.

            Most recently, an atheist family in New Jersey is suing its school district in an effort to have “under God” removed from the Pledge of Allegiance on the grounds that it discriminates against atheists.

            LifeWay Research just released new findings on the opinions of broader culture when it comes to “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance. You can download the full research report here.

            Here are some of the key findings:

            85% of Americans want to keep “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance.

            25% of Americans think forcing students to say “under God” violates their rights.

            8% of Americans want to remove “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance.

            14% of Americans ages 18-29 want to remove “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance.

            5% of Americans aged 64 or older want to remove “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance.

            13% of college-educated Americans want to remove “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance.

            94% of self-identified born again, evangelical, or fundamentalist
            Christian Americans want to keep “under God” in the Pledge of
            Allegiance.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            People are free to take action as they desire. That is one of the most important freedoms we have in this great nation of ours.

            Do you know why “under God” was added to the pledge? It was in response to the cold war with Russia, to distinguish us from their governmental position of Atheism.

            The numbers you cited do not surprise me in the least. Personally, I think it should be removed, as it has nothing to do with citizenship. But I do not feel strongly enough about it to press the issue.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Yes I’m aware of why “under God” was added. A very important position I might add. We wanted to believe in God, instead of becoming like atheists.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Good. Then you understand that it was not added as a result of a desire to state that the US is ruled by the Christian belief system.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I never said it was ruled by the Christian belief system. I said that it was founded on judeo-christian principles.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I said that it was founded on judeo-christian principles.”

            Really? What would those principles be?

            Would it be a JC principle that people should have gods other than the Christian god? Nope.

            Would it be a JC principle that people are free to pursue their happiness not in accordance with Christian laws? Nope.

            Would it be a JC principle that people are free to speak, even if that means taking the Christian god’s name in vain? Nope.

            Would it be a JC principle that women are treated equally to men? Nope.

            Would it be a JC principle that the laws of man hold legal sway over the laws of the Bible? Nope.

            So I’m at a loss. Exactly which JC principles was the country founded on?

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Here is an example of Judeo-Christian values. It will sum up most of the things we are discussing.

            http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2007/09/the_judeochristian_values_of_a.html

          • StarkStealthArmor

            You have presented comments related to Jesus. Is your intent to mislead? Please put into context the statements you presented concerning what Jesus stated. The Bible can give you the Chapter and vers. necessary to complete the context of your statements. If it is easier you can post the link to the appropriate scripture in which you presented your statements. Thank you.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I’ll ask again: Exactly which JC principles was the country founded on?

          • StarkStealthArmor
          • StarkStealthArmor

            You deflected my comment. Would provide in context the statements of Jesus. Again you may use the Bible to do so if necessary

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You deflected my question.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            I stated judeo-christian principles. I also provided you with a link to further support my statement. Did you not receive the link?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I received it after your initial deflection.

          • Deina

            What comments would those be?

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Private conversation, but thanks

          • Deina

            Private conversation on a public message page????

            What are you talking about?

            Once again: What comments would those be?

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Yes, I realize that it’s on a public message page, but the conversation between him and I in no way relates to you. To answer your question, give me a reference point. I do not understand the question as you have phrased it.

          • Deina

            Unfortunately, all of his posts have been deleted, so there are no longer any reference points. 🙁

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Ok, Thanks anyway.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            Actually, I was referring to the 10 commandments. #1, #2, #3, and #4 conflicts with the 1st amendment. #5, #7, and #10 conflicts with general liberty.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Isn’t that exactly what the LGBT does, and the atheist community does. Cry out in anguish that they are so discriminated against. It’s more like boo whoooo its not fair that Christians will stand up against us and not let me eat at a restaurant. I’ve not seen one instance in my lifetime of any Christian wanting someone hurt because of being Gay. Your certainly not referring to any Christians I know. More important you have not seen Christ makes such remarks. No I’m going to battle FOR free speech including the rights of Christians to say in public anything about Christ that they feel will enhance the lifes of others. If you don’t like that, join the crowd that doesn’t. However it is doubtful that the changes are going to stop, more likely to come it will get louder, and as the movie called “Network” The Howard Beale Show, top-billed as “the mad prophet of the
            airwaves”. Ultimately, the show becomes the most highly rated program on
            television, and Beale finds new celebrity preaching his angry message
            in front of a live studio audience that, on cue, chants Beale’s
            signature catchphrase en masse: “We’re as mad as he.., and we’re not going to take this anymore. I think your going to hear a lot more Christians taking that stance.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Isn’t that exactly what the LGBT does….. Cry out in anguish that they are so discriminated against.

            Yes, because they are.

            “and the atheist community does”

            I’m not aware of the atheist community crying out in anguish that they are being discriminated against, nor do I believe they are.

            “I’ve not seen one instance in my lifetime of any Christian wanting someone hurt because of being Gay.”

            Really? Well, you haven’t been paying much attention. What do you think was the basis for laws that called for the death penalty in the US for homosexuality? Or prison sentences? Or castration? It was Christians citing Christian beliefs. Who do you think is calling for laws which financially and legally harm gay citizens? Hmmm….that would be Christians.

            “No I’m going to battle FOR free speech including the rights of Christians to say in public anything about Christ that they feel will enhance the lifes of others.”

            I will also battle for that right….within reasonable bounds.

            “We’re as mad as he.., and we’re not going to take this anymore.”

            Take what? Not being allowed to restrict the rights of other citizens based upon your religious beliefs? Not being able to require the government to favor your religion over others? Not being to use taxpayer money – provided by people of all faiths as well as no faith – to promote your religion?

            Again, like a petulant child being told they have to share and throwing a tantrum about it.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Let’s also look at this: One of the most amazing statements ever: notice the words “created” and “Creator” capital letter. Now how do you suppose people thought at that time? Being created by the Creator. We hold these truths to be self-evident. Why is it that people can’t put that together today. Living in America as an atheist must be a very difficult thing, because the truth is self evident.

            We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

            This has been called “one of the best-known sentences in the English language”,[7] containing “the most potent and consequential words in American history”.[8] The passage came to represent a moral standard to which the United States should strive. This view was notably promoted by Abraham Lincoln,
            who considered the Declaration to be the foundation of his political
            philosophy, and argued that the Declaration is a statement of principles
            through which the United States Constitution should be interpreted.[9]

            It provided inspiration to numerous national declarations of independence
            throughout the world. Historian David Armitage, after examining the
            influence of the American “Declaration” on over 100 other declarations
            of independence, says:

            The American Revolution was the first outbreak of the contagion of
            sovereignty that has swept the world in the centuries since 1776. Its
            influence spread first to the Low Countries and then to the Caribbean,
            Spanish America, the Balkans, West Africa, and Central Europe in the
            decades up to 1848…. Declarations of independence were among the
            primary symptoms of this contagion of sovereignty.[10]

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            The DoI is, without a doubt, a very important historical document. It is not, however, a basis for our laws.

            As you noted, the word “Creator” was used. Not “God” nor “Christian God”, but Creator – as each man holds to his own vision of what that is and the DoI recognizes that and does not distinguish, regarding liberty, equality, and life, based upon a single religion’s god.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            You can believe that if you like, however when referring to God as the Creator, that is the God above all other God’s. I often refer to God as the Creator. That is because like those that placed those comments into our government structure also believed that God was the Creator. That in fact is the point. If you don’t believe that was based on a Christian viewpoint that would make little sense. What other religion claims that God is the Creator? Christians certainly do, are there others I’m not aware of that were a part of the Dol?

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Every religion believes their god is the creator.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            REALLY? I’d like to see some evidence of that.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You’d like to see evidence that different religions believe that their god is the creator? Really? You don’t already know that? Do you think that Baha’i, Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, and Zoroastrianism all believe that the Christian god is the creator?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I’d like to see evidence of those religions believing that God is the Creator. You misunderstood what I asked.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            They believe their version of god is the creator. They do not believe that the Christian god is their creator.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            Buddhism: Lets look at that for a moment. They do not believe in a Creator, but of a man who did not claim to be a God. This is a great article about that. To suggest that all religions “believe their version of god is the creator” is simply an inaccurate statement.

            http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/5minbud.htm

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I stand corrected on Buddhism. The others remain.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Based on what I saw last night, if people do not want to eat at a small Pizza place that has religious symbols and states they won’t cater, but will serve anyone, then gets bomb threats, because of their religious beliefs, to you consider that to be something that they deserve? When a business stands up for their Christian faith, or other faith, and refuses to do business with someone because they look funny thats one thing, but if the person asking for service is purposefully making an issue out of a person Religious beliefs because they don’t do catering and LGBT gatherings that is another. I don’t think anyone deserves that treatment, bomb threats! Are you kidding me? Over a pizza. That is how ridiculous all of this really is.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I don’t think that threats of violence are ever appropriate.

            Not to mention that no self-respecting gay person would EVER serve pizza at a wedding reception. Flat breads, perhaps, but pizza? Puleeeeeze!

            I”ll ask again: Do you believe that being Christian places a business owner above the law and that it is wrong for citizens to hold someone accountable to the law because they are Christian?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Can you tell me a situation where Christian’s that own a business are above the law. What specific laws are on the books related to that, if you don’t mind explaining. I’m not as familiar with laws like that, and you may be more equipped to help me.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I am not aware of any. Yet, some people suggest that it is wrong to hold Christians accountable for breaking the law if they break the law based upon religious beliefs. Do you agree with that?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I’m still trying to figure out what your saying about Christians breaking the law? If a Christian breaks the law, for instance a violent act because they disagree with someone, then by all means a Christian must face the consequences of his/her actions. In such matters as that I certainly do agree with you. If your referring to something else, an example would help me fully answer the question. Thanks again.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I’m still trying to figure out what your saying about Christians breaking the law? ”

            I’m unclear as to the source of your confusion. There are laws. If people break them, they are hold accountable by others. The question is simple: Do you believe that being Christian places a business owner above the law and that it is wrong for citizens to hold someone accountable to the law because they are Christian?

            It’s a “yes” or “no” question.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Please give me a specific law, or laws your referring to. I will answer once I receive that information. Thanks

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I’m unclear why the specific law would matter. Are you suggesting that there are some civil laws which Christians are above and it is wrong to hold them accountable for, while there are others that they are not above?

            The laws I’m referring to are anti-discrimination laws.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Ok, lets look at anti-discrimation examples:
            Examples of discrimination against religious freedoms.

            Just a few weeks ago, on March 10, the federal government returned the eagle feathers it had seized nine years prior from a Native American religious leader and famed feather dancer Robert Soto. He had appealed the seizure of the eagle feathers, for which he faced 15 years in a federal penitentiary and a $250,000 fine, on Religious Freedom Restoration Act grounds.

            After being baptized in the Sikh faith, Kawal Tagore began carrying a kirpan, “an emblem resembling a small knife with a blunt, curved blade” that reminds Sikhs of their commitment to justice. It’s one of five articles of faith baptized Sikhs are supposed to carry. She was told to go home from her job with the IRS in a federal building in Houston and told not to return. The building allowed scissors, knives, box cutters and other items with far sharper blades than her kirpan, but they wouldn’t let her carry her religiously required emblem. After working from home for nine months, she was fired. She sought protection under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and on November 4, 2014, the government agreed to settle the case.

            In order to enter kindergarten in the Needville, Texas, schools, Adriel Arocha, the son of Kenney Arocha and Michelle Bettenbaugh, was told he’d have to cut his hair. I couldn’t find any photos to embed here but photos of the cutie pie are here and here. The school had general grooming policies, including that “[b]oys’ hair shall not cover any part of the ear or touch the top of the standard collar in back.” The policy’s stated design is “to teach hygiene, instill discipline, prevent disruption, avoid safety hazards, and assert authority.” The parents applied for an exemption but because their religious practices were handed down orally, they couldn’t provide the necessary written documentation of their religious practice. The boy and his parents won their case that the school district had violated Texas’ Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

            Philemon Homes is a Christian non-profit in Sinton, Texas. It provides housing and religious instruction to petty offenders released from state prisons. Richard Barr ran the non-profit, which was located across the street from Grace Christian Fellowship, the church he attended. Sinton had no restrictions on such an operation when it first began but in 1999, the city council enacted an ordinance that banned the organization from existing within the city limits. According to the group that represented Barr and Philemon, “the Texas Religious Freedom Restoration Act (TRFRA), passed in 1999, which provides much needed protection for people of faith, churches, and faith-based organizations,” was an important part of that victory.

            Abdul Muhammad is a Muslim incarcerated in Arkansas. He was not allowed to grow the 1/2 inch beard his religion commands even though Arkansas permits beards for other reasons. And the same beard would have been allowed in 44 state and federal prison systems in the country. In 2011, he filed suit. He won the suit using the “RFRA for prisoners” — the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act. That bill was also signed by Bill Clinton. Earlier this year, Muhammad won his case unanimously at the United States Supreme Court. They held that he’d shown the restriction was a substantial burden on his religious exercise.

            Apple CEO Tim Cook has come out against RFRAs in the Washington Post. “This isn’t a political issue. It isn’t a religious issue. This is about how we treat each other as human beings,” he says. Tell that to the religious minorities listed above who won their state RFRA cases.

            Does Apple CEO Tim Cook really think that the kindergartener punished by his elementary school for his religious practice shouldn’t have any recourse at all? Is he not a human being who deserves good treatment? Does he think Orthodox Jews in Dallas shouldn’t have the right to worship in their synagogue? Do they really not have a religious issue? It’s somewhat disconcerting when one of the wealthiest and most powerful men on the planet tells a group of religious minorities that he doesn’t think they have legitimate religious issues and that they shouldn’t have won their cases.
            Cook writes that “Opposing discrimination takes courage.” He’s right. When powerful elites take aim at religious freedom, it takes a heck of a lot of courage to fight against anti-religious discrimination. That, of course, is precisely what RFRAs are designed to do.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            So, was all that: “Yes, Christians are above certain laws and it is wrong to hold them accountable for breaking those laws” or “No, while I may disagree with certain laws, Christians are not above any laws and it is not wrong to hold them accountable for breaking laws, although they certainly are free to challenge those laws in court.”?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Really sir, you don’t understand the point of the message. I think your letting on that you don’t, but you do. Why ask the question in a different manner, I’ve provided you with the answer.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            No, you did not provide me with an answer to my question. It requires nothing more than a “yes” or “no”. Why are you so loath to provide that?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Ask the question again directly. In other words don’t hide what your intentions are in the question, because frankly I’ve forgotten the question.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I asked the question directly the first time, but if you need me to repeat it, I will:

            Do you believe that Christians are above the law and that it is wrong to hold Christians accountable for breaking the law?

            Again, a simple “yes” or “no” is all that is needed.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            To the first part of the question “Do you believe that Christians are above the law” Yes if the law discriminates against Christians. This type of thing has been represented many times by people such as Mendela, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, etc.

            The second part of your question: is it wrong to hold Christians accountable for breaking the law? It depends. If they break the law for violent behavior as an example, no. If the law is there to interfere with a Christian’s belief and morals in any manner, then the answer would be yes.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “Yes if the law discriminates against Christians. ”

            Well thank goodness there aren’t any of those.

            “If the law is there to interfere with a Christian’s belief and morals in any manner, then the answer would be yes.”

            Well thank goodness there aren’t any of those. Christians, as with all citizens, are free to believe as they like and to hold to whatever morals they care to.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            That is the power of Christian’s and spirituality in Politics. That is why we want leaders that won’t allow for discrimination against establishments such as Hobby Lobby, and allowing the LGBT to walk on the rights of our religious freedoms. Or for that matter the FFRA who fight every day to remove God anywhere they can. Christians will fight against the FFRA because they take most anything to court, and most times get beat back by the courts. But that isn’t going to stop them from any progress they make. That is the true battle going on. Again, Icons of faith that are placed within Government buildings is important. Public schools that have group’s that believe in their religion and come together at schools are important. I would assume that if children that were atheist put together a group at a school it would be important. These are the things I’m talking about. Not discrimination.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “allowing the LGBT to walk on the rights of our religious freedoms. ”

            What religious freedoms are LGBT people walking on? Are you not allowed to believe as you like? Are you not allowed to share your beliefs with others? Are you not allowed to live your personal life according to your beliefs?

            If anyone is walking on the rights of others, it is those Christians who want to restrict the rights of others based upon the Christian belief system.

            You want to talk about business rights? Well how about when business owners were forced to close on Sundays because Christians made them? Was that reasonable? Didn’t that “force” people to conduct their business in line with the Christian faith? Even now, there are places where the owner of a liquor store is forbidden from opening on Sunday, or is restricted from opening until a certain time. Why? Because Christians decided to “walk on” their rights.

            Before you start throwing stones, you should take a hard look at how Christians have trampled on the rights of others and forced people to acquiesce in the expression of their liberty and pursuit of happiness to the Christian religion.

            “Or for that matter the FFRA who fight every day to remove God anywhere they can.”

            So should these leaders you desire outlaw the FFRA?

            “and most times get beat back by the courts.”

            Actually, most times they don’t.

            “Again, Icons of faith that are placed within Government buildings is important.”

            Why? Is your faith so fragile that you need the government to promote it?

            “Public schools that have group’s that believe in their religion and come together at schools are important.”

            Why? Are there not enough opportunities to do that outside of public school? Again, is your faith so fragile that you need the public schools – which serve all students of all faiths as well as no faith, and are funded by citizens of all faith as well as no faith – promoting it?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I can site many instances of the FFRA being beat back in courts. A recent example is when the FFRA tried to take “under God” out. A young lady of 16 presented her case as a Christian, and the judge ruled against the FFRA. Should they be removed? No. In answer to the Icon’s question you should know the answer to that. Christians fragile? Not a chance. Public schools are a place where kids can come together that are friends after school for all types of activities including those of religion. I see no problem with the rights of kids being able to form groups that can share experiences. Actually the strength of the Freedom of religion restoration act provided for groups within public schools to assemble based on their beliefs, which was pushed by Bush. In Clinton’s administration he also demonstrated his desire for the restoration act to penetrate into the public school system. I believe that any and all religions should have the right to groups if they so desire it in a public school. Of course there would be exceptions because of the implications such as an argument for Satanist’s etc, which don’t fit into the morality of our society and are often violent.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            They have certainly lost cases – but they win more than they lose.

            If Christians aren’t fragile, then why is it important that their icons grace buildings that are there for ALL citizens of ALL faiths as well as no faith?

            “I see no problem with the rights of kids being able to form groups that can share experiences.”

            Nor do I. And they can.

            “I believe that any and all religions should have the right to groups if they so desire it in a public school. Of course there would be exceptions”

            Which is it? All? Or just some? Who gets to decide? What is the criteria?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I don’t make those decisions, those that manage the groups do. Those groups are usually sponsored by parents, like the chess club, etc. So it’s up to the parents of the public school to address that. I’m just saying the Religion restoration act, is in support of parents who form groups that hold religious beliefs.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            You’re the one who said there would be exceptions, so it reasonable that you would have some criteria in mind. But, again, rather than explain what you mean, you push it off.

            So you think parents should be the ones to determine which religions are worthy of having a club and which aren’t. Well there’s your freedom of religion for ya – people deciding which religions are worthy and which aren’t.

            “We must have the right to religious freedom….and I also want the right to restrict other religions”.

            And you question me about hypocrisy? Really?

          • StarkStealthArmor

            First let’s get hypocrite into a proper framework:

            a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

            2.
            a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements
            When you look at comments that are posted, and based on the definition of a hypocrite, I suggest many people fall into this category. When people are looking through a computer screen, and cannot see nor hear voice inflection and facial responses etc. it becomes difficult to say that probably in most cases we all are hypocrites to some extent.

            I’m not sure in the case of parents raising their children in one belief or another in a group public school setting is something wrong. For instance you may start a group of philosophy, to inter-relate your concepts as a parent. You may include your Deistic outlook. I see nothing wrong with that and would encourage it.

            There would be exceptions. Generally their are exceptions related to a wide variety of issues. So when I post their could be some exceptions I’m saying it’s a reality. You may see a set of Muslim children in a group talking about their lives as Muslims. You might see a Christian group talking about their personal experiences and sharing with each other. I believe that is fair for our youth. I’m all about our youth today and make a concerted effort to assure their survival. I think I already mentioned that is one of my missions in life.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            I’m aware of the definition of hypocrite.

          • StarkStealthArmor

            very good

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I would like to point out this article. As I told you before, there is change coming to America, and it starts with people in political positions with a strong Christian background that will be a big consideration in the future of our government. And it’s about time!

            http://christiannews.net/2015/03/31/rand-paul-first-amendment-says-keep-govt-out-of-religion-not-religion-out-of-govt/

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Given that every President we have had, as well as the majority of all Congress’, state legislatures, and governors, have professed to be members of the Christian faith, it would be difficult for our political leadership to be MORE Christian.

            if, however, you are referring to conservative Christians who desire to implement Biblical teachings onto the country as a whole, I feel fairly certain that you will not see that political change coming to the US. Neither the demographics, nor views of the majority, support it.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I’m saying exactly the above. Looking at what Paul Rand says, often they pray at meetings etc. I’m talking about the power of Christians in political office that can change policy and laws. What he says is what Christians look at as empowerment, and as I said before, Christians and those who have spiritual faith are tired of those (mostly atheists) who say some of the most horrific things in the name of not believing in God. As an example just look at this Parque_Hundido guy. Not just the comments to me, but to everyone. He is destructive, and should be an example of what should be removed from a site like this one. You and I can have opposite opinions, but at the end of the day we can always be civil. This guy is an example of what Christians are tired of. Even atheist’s are tired of him from what I’ve seen.

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            “I’m talking about the power of Christians in political office that can change policy and laws. ”

            Such as?

            “This guy is an example of what Christians are tired of.”

            Yeah. I hear ya. I’m kinda tired of Christians saying that because something is against their religious beliefs, that should be sufficient reason to make it illegal for all people. I’m kinda tired of people like this: http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2015/03/24/395070728/calif-lawyer-proposes-ballot-initiative-to-kills-gays-and-lesbians

      • Noreen L

        You are hopelessly naïve. Wake up.

        • thoughtsfromflorida

          “You are hopelessly naïve”

          How so?

          • The Last Trump

            Well, for starters, you actually believe people are going to jump through your hoops and play twenty questions with you…

          • MisterPine

            And you actually believe there is a man in the sky who’s guiding you to make life as difficult and unpleasant as possible for gay people. But this is a LOVING God, yessiree.

          • The Last Trump

            No God had it all worked out and civilized. It’s the men on the ground who keep making things difficult and unpleasant, silly!

          • MisterPine

            Yeah, how inconvenient when they occasionally fall in love, eh? How unfortunate for the Christian supremacists around them who just can’t allow that to happen. And it affects the lives of other people just SO much.

          • The Last Trump

            Ah, there you go again desperately trying to portray sexualimmorality as “love”.
            You wouldn’t know the first thing about love with that twisted view.

          • MisterPine

            Love is love. And if you don’t want your OWN relationship defined by what you do in your bedroom, don’t try to define OTHER people’s using the same bizarre tactic.

          • The Last Trump

            Love has nothing to do with bedrooms.
            If you knew anything about love you wouldn’t find it necessary to seek out Christian websites and bully people into thinking how you think. God, you would have made a great Naz!.

          • MisterPine

            In the real world as we know it, romantic love has two components, “eros” love and “philia” love. Which is why when people get married, you see Trumpy, they go to bed together and let nature take its course.

            What you seem to be saying about homosexuals is that they have only the “eros” part but nothing else. So, despite the fact that millions of homosexuals fall in love exactly the same way, I should listen to you instead, who isn’t a homosexual and therefore can’t speak from experience, when you say that it’s not possible for homosexuals to feel love towards each other.

            I’m going to listen to a hateful bigot who knows precisely nothing about his subject, just as you know nothing about evolution and nothing about the law.

            LOL

          • The Last Trump

            “I’m going to listen to a hateful bigot who knows precisely nothing”
            I’m confused. You’re going to read your own posts?
            Oh. Ok. I’ll leave you to it then. 😉

          • thoughtsfromflorida

            Many people have the integrity to answer questions about the statements they make and are more than happy to engage in honest debate.

            Not you, of course, but many others.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. No list of questions or hoops for me to jump through?
            I’m impressed. 🙂

    • Noreen L

      The atheist agenda is in part the U.N. agenda.

      • LIFE – A Gift Divine

        I’m not sure I understand. Thanks for your comment. Could you tell me more?

        • Oboehner

          In a tyrannical government the state is god, there is no room for any other.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Even in the midst of Tyranny, Christ continued to minister. That is the calling of Christ to us. Follow in his example.

            13Later they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to Jesus to catch him in his words.
            14They
            came to him and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a man of
            integrity. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to
            who they are; but you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth.
            Is it right to pay the imperial tax
            to Caesar or not?
            15Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”

            But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.”
            16They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

            “Caesar’s,” they replied.

            17Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

            And they were amazed at him.

          • Oboehner

            That really has little to do with the UN agenda.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            What is the UN agenda?

  • FoJC_Forever

    Homosexuals and their degenerate supporters are loving the limelight. Those who practice the most heinous of sins in the world love the special feelings they get from all the attention. All this “bad press” is only used by them to keep their perversion center stage in front of the public.

    But, their rise in societies around the world is just another sign, among many, that the End of this Age is at hand. Judgement is coming.

    • Paul Hiett

      Oh noes, my choice of one of thousands of religions in this world can’t discriminate against people I think are icky!!!

      • Oboehner

        Oh no, sexual perversion again takes precedence over someone’s faith and freedom.

        • MisterPine

          Yes, let’s all judge people based on what we are guessing they do in the privacy of their bedrooms.

          • Oboehner

            How does anyone know they are gay then if everything is private?

          • MisterPine

            Your issue isn’t that they’re gay. Your issue by your own words is that they are “perverts” which you are basing on what goes on in their bedrooms.

          • Oboehner

            How does anyone know they are gay then if everything is private?
            “…what goes on in their bedrooms.” and waysides, public parks, gay pride parades, airport bathrooms,…

          • MisterPine

            Airport bathrooms, right. Good old well-informed Oboehner, making the rarest elements of society out to be the norm.

          • Oboehner

            Like gays right?

          • MisterPine

            Want to prove all homosexuals do it in airport bathrooms? Got a link, a fact, a statistic? Anything?

          • Oboehner

            Tap, tap.

          • The Last Trump

            No guessing required. It’s in our face. All day. Every day.
            And just in case we missed it, it’s on our cereal boxes and in our kindergartener’s classroom. And then paraded down Main Street and right past your front door. They even troll Christian websites to harass anyone with different beliefs. No one is free from their tyranny. In fact, the only place it’s NOT, is in the privacy of their own homes.
            Save it, bub. Still not buying your BS. Try harder.

          • MisterPine

            Right, the explicit sexual practices of gay men are on your cereal boxes and in your kindergartens. Do you even think before you type? To quote you, GET HELP for your paranoid schizophrenia.

          • The Last Trump

            Sorry it took me so long to respond.
            A Gay Pride Parade just went by the house and two men in leather chaps were whipping and mock sodomizing each other in front of my family.
            It’s ok, Pine. Thanks for your concern. We’re all right now.
            The kids are just scarred for life, but as long as gays get to grope each other in public, that’s what really matters.

          • MisterPine

            And that is why we don’t look to gay pride parades for a standard example of a homosexual, T-Rump. Just like if I wanted a good standard example of a Christian I would go to a standard regular Catholic or Lutheran Church on a Sunday morning, whereas if I wanted an example of the worst Christians, I’d come here and look for you or Nick or Oboehner.

          • The Last Trump

            Play nice Pinester.
            Your hate is showing.

          • MisterPine

            And you’re certainly an expert on THAT subject, right, Mr. Perverts-and-Sodomites?

          • The Last Trump

            You got THAT right!
            More LGBT haters and bigots around this forum than you can shake a stick at! Well, I don’t need to tell YOU! 😉

          • MisterPine

            Really, Rump? Why don’t you think up a few more hateful and derogatory things to call homosexuals? Nick’s risen to the occasion with his “homo-fascists”, all you’ve got so far is perverts and sodomites. The come back and tell the rest of us how hateful we are to Christians.

          • The Last Trump

            No need. Your hypocrisy, hate, bigotry and intolerance are on full display here with every post.
            Keep it up, mouthpiece. You ‘re actually DRIVING people to Christianity! 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            No need, Pinester.
            Your own hateful, bigoted intolerant posts are on full display on this forum.
            That’s the problem with fools with loose lips. Just have to get you talking and give you enough rope! You do the rest ALL by yourself! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Project away, fundie lunatic. Your words and accusations ring hollow. It’s your actions that do all the talking….as do my own.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s right. Keep posting your drivel, bigot.
            I’ll be waiting….

          • MisterPine

            As long as you fight for the right to hate, there will be decent human beings who will gladly stand up to you, fundie bigot.

          • The Last Trump

            Right to hate?
            Clearly you have me confused with you and your band of thugs. People who seek out those who are leaving them alone to attack and harass them.
            Imagine making DEATH THREATS because the owners of a pizzeria don’t think like you do! Such an open minded “loving” group.
            Talk about the most hateful group on the planet!
            And now everybody knows it. Keep posting, you, “decent” (blech” sorry, just threw up a little bit in my mouth) human being you!Show everybody here just what you’re all about. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Nope. No confusion. You want to hate and discriminate against homosexuals and I don’t. That’s it. End of story. All done. And you’re upset that people like me won’t let you hate in peace. As though that’s something we should just sit back and watch you do.

            So death threats from Christians to homosexuals are OK then?

            Yes, T-Rump. It’s a decent thing to be compassionate to people and allow them the right to love who they want. I don’t care if that makes you throw up in your mouth. If it’s the right thing to do, then you can throw up all over your shoes for all I care.

          • The Last Trump

            OH, so you DIDN”T really just want to be left alone!
            And it WAS going to make a difference to OUR LIVES!
            Shocker. Old news.
            Thanks for clearing that up Christian site stalking, bullying, hateful bigot intolerant of any belief but your own.
            Love it when you post. Just gotta give a f00l more rope.
            They do all the rest.
            PLEASE respond! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Happy to respond. Leave them alone and they will not have any reason to stand up to you for your bigotry. See how it works?

          • The Last Trump

            SAYS THE GUY HARASSING CHRISTIANS THAT HE SOUGHT OUT ON THE CHRISTIAN WEBSITE!!
            Ahh, man! THAT never gets old! What a hypocritical loon!
            Yes, Stalker, I”LL leave THEM (?) alone!
            M0ron.

          • MisterPine

            Don’t harass homosexuals, and no one will say BOO to you.

            A five-year old could figure this out, why can’t you? Don’t you know the world is laughing at you?

          • The Last Trump

            Speaking for the World again, eh! Wow. You sure do think you’re important dontcha? I can see now that you must have a very sad existence. What with stalking Christians to promote your hate and religious bigotry to bouncing back and forth to your Gaystapo website with it’s collection of intolerant nerds. And clearly you are attention starved which would explain a lot (the stalking of Christian websites, the continual and desperate posts to me, and to others about absolutely nothing, etc, etc).

            So I think it’s time to stop indulging in your insatiable appetite for attention, you poor misguided soul. I’m going to go now and get back to my life, ok? You’ll have to get your hate fix elsewhere. You’ve certainly taken up more than your fair share of my time with your shameful drivel. I’ll let you get back to your hateful and intolerant stalking, but don’t worry you little big0t you, we will talk again I’M SURE! As soon as you have something intelligent to say that’s worthy of response. So probably not very soon, huh? Don’t worry. I’ll find you. Just need to spot the most intolerant, bigoted posts directed against religious freedom and free thought. They just scream “MisterIntolerance”!

            Yes, the only thing you fascists hate more than Christians and religious freedoms is rejection! NOT responding to your pointless and uneducated claims drives you attention wh0res over the edge!

            Who said debates couldn’t be fun? 😉
            Later.

    • Noreen L

      The U.N. is pushing homosexuality, abortion, and gun control as a big part of their agenda to create a “new world order”, and withholding aid from all countries that resist them.

    • weasel1886

      So slavery and genocide of natives wasn’t cause enough to bring on the end times but being gay is?

      • Peter Leh

        lol

  • SFBruce

    This is good news. It’s interesting that Hutchinson’s son, Seth, signed a petition asking the Governor, his dad, to veto this. Most people in his age group support LGBT equality, including marriage.

    • The Last Trump

      Yes it’s usually the younger, more easily influenced who falls for such.

      • Paul Hiett

        You mean the more educated.

        • The Last Trump

          No, the younger are generally less educated than the older and THE WISER. Perhaps you’ve heard that before. With age comes…You know. Wow. Paul. Wrong AGAIN! How do you do it!
          Gotta be some kind of record!…
          So to recap.
          The young and dumb.

          • MisterPine

            Too funny Trump. Hee hee hee. You’re killing me over here. Rolling on the floor laughing. Oh my God. Are you for real?

          • Oboehner

            You’re a prime example.

          • MisterPine

            You’re a lunatic zealot.

          • The Last Trump

            I see you’re out making more friends.
            You LGBT types are a friendly bunch aren’t you!
            I’ll come back later.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, no, that’s just Oboehner, one of your fellow fundamentalists. He believes evolution is a religion, that Catholics are not Christians, that the world is 6000 years old and that there is no proof vaccines work. He also has a fan page at fstdt.com if you want to go have a peek at what all the hateful, crazed liberals have to say in response to his drool. May as well since you’ll be in good company with him soon as the world laughs as you together.

          • The Last Trump

            Hell, I like him already! Anybody not hateful and intolerant enough to be a friend of yours is surely a friend of mine! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Excellent, you can go and picket schools for allowing evolution to be taught in Science classrooms and not in religion ones. Be sure to stop by and give us all a progress report on how that’s working out for you. Fighting reality is something you have in common.

          • The Last Trump

            Reality. NOTHING created EVERYTHING.
            Suuure. THAT’S not a religion. (yikes!)

          • MisterPine

            Nice strawman, that isn’t what evolution means. You’re in PERFECT company with Oboehner. Now you just have to say that the mountains of evidence for evolution are not evidence at all and keep calling it “evolutionism” and a “religion”.

          • The Last Trump

            “In the beginning, there was nothing.
            Then, IT EXPLODED!!”
            Hee, hee! Yup. Reality.
            You liberals will believe anything, wontcha?
            ‘And from nothing came everything, and somehow via mysterious and scientifically unduplicated processes (aka “magic”) male AND female were formed, and heck, wouldn’t you know there just happened to be a rich variety of food and water resources to go around to sustain everything and then…..”
            Yeah, WE’RE the kooks!
            But YOU believe in MAGIC!
            Riiight.

          • MisterPine

            You’re quite right to laugh at that, because that’s not what evolution means either. Learn about evolution before you attack what you don’t understand. Thanks for the soundbite though, this one was submitted to fstdt.com. Check over there in a couple days to see it.

          • Paul Hiett

            The irony is hilarious. Boggles my mind he thinks we believe in magic, while his belief has an invisible man in the sky who knows everything, can do anything (but chooses to do nothing) and created everything in the universe with a snap of his fingers.

            And we believe in “magic”????

          • MisterPine

            It’s a tack used by lots of fundies, it’s not surprising. Take all the things you’re being accused of and try to muddy the waters by throwing them all back at your accuser. Trump does it. Oboehner does it. I think it’s a diversionary tactic personally. This way he never has to examine his own actions.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            You know that is one of the things I dislike about these comment sections. Your right in this statement. I know you don’t believe the things I do, and we have disagreement, but you have a valid point. There is a lot of room for improvement in these discussions.

          • The Last Trump

            Paul’s having some difficulty explaining to the group how magic created everything, and IT (?) did so with clear design and purpose.
            Jump in any time and convince us.Einstein.
            Ahh, you nuts and your “religion”.
            No magic sky daddy, eh? JUST MAGIC!
            Hee, hee! 😉

          • MisterPine

            Paul is having difficulty explaining? Funny, I understood just fine. Here’s a hint: it isn’t magic, , that’s more your line, isn’t it? God just made everything go poof?

            Thanks again for the helpful sound bite, they are going to love you at fstdt.com.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s it? “It isn’t magic”?
            Well, why didn’t you just say so, professor. I’m convinced!
            Oh, wait. I’m not a leftist liberal. Or a sucker.
            Gonna take a little bit more “evidence” than THAT, bub.

          • MisterPine

            Right, so you can just believe with much more confidence that a little man in the sky did it. How UTTERLY ironic and hypocritical.

            And you wonder why the entire forum thinks you’re a tool.

          • The Last Trump

            The megalomaniac twelve year old fascist speaks for the entire forum now! Not surprising. He’s already been claiming to speak for the rest of the world. What a nut.

          • MisterPine

            Oh no, I defer to your scientific brilliance. Clearly your magic sky daddy is a much more superior explanation than all this man-made science stuff.

          • The Last Trump

            No, no. I’m sure you’re right. When I see something with astounding complexity and clear design with purpose, like a space shuttle for instance, the first thing I think is that it clearly created itself. You know, SLOWLY over thousands of years, not right away or anything. I’m NOT an id!ot! (Duh). Of course the tires were not actually “designed” to allow for landings, the heat shield not for protection of the crew, the life support system either. I mean, how would the shuttle know a crew would be inside it right? Duh. And don’t get me started on the parachute, computer systems, cargo bay and windows! All completely by accident and without purpose.

            What a bunch of m0rons. Yeah, when you see clear and complex design with clear purpose and function A DESIGNER is absolutely out of the question! GET HELP man.You’re embarrassing yourself

            “Just the discoveries in a strand of DNA should have ended all debate a long time ago: “DNA is an information code. The overwhelming conclusion is that information does not and cannot arise spontaneously by mechanistic processes. Intelligence is a necessity in the origin of any informational code, including the genetic code, no matter how much time is given.” (Lane Lester, Ph.D. Genetics, The Natural Limits to Biological Change)

            Hmmm, science tells us that an INTELLIGENCE was necessary to have created the code. A DESIGNER.
            Nah. Think I’ll go with MisterPine and his fascist buddies from the liberal left. No magic sky daddy. Just Magic.
            On second thought, Maybe I’ll stick with science and the clear evidence of Intelligent Design. Then I won’t look so stup!d 🙂

          • MisterPine

            That was….magnificent.

            It brought me to honest-to-God tears, it did.

            I’m not even going to touch this steaming heap, I’ll just submit it instead. You’re going to be the biggest fundie anti-hero on the internet! Smile for the birdie T-Rump!

          • The Last Trump

            I love that you think that your little std’s.com website for nerds without girlfriends is accomplishing something!
            Adorable!
            Make sure you send this one too!
            CHEESE! 🙂

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I thought you said you understand my beliefs in another comment to me. We could talk about magic things all day, but if your qualifying God as an invisible man, consider this recent article:
            Dark matter is just what it sounds like: matter that does not emit, reflect or absorb light, so it is invisible. However, we know it is there because of its measurable gravitational effects on parts of the universe that we can see. As such, one of the best ways to study dark matter is to observe what happens when galaxies containing large amounts of the stuff collide with each other.

            “We know how gas and stars react to these cosmic crashes and where they emerge from the wreckage. Comparing how dark matter behaves can help us to narrow down what it actually is,” said David Harvey of the Swiss École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL), lead author of a new study that looked at 72 galactic collisions using Hubble and Chandra data.

            During these violent events, the stars of the colliding galaxies do not slow down because they are actually far enough away from other stars to travel through the crash without their progress being impeded. The researchers found that dark matter also does not slow down as galaxies collide, but this is not because it is far away from other dark matter as with stars – dark matter is believed to be spread evenly through galaxy clusters, meaning that the particles would often get very close to each other.

            The resulting conclusion is that in addition to not interacting with visible matter, dark matter also does not interact with other dark matter.

            “A previous study had seen similar behavior in the Bullet Cluster,” says team member Richard Massey of Durham University. “But it’s difficult to interpret what you’re seeing if you have just one example. Each collision takes hundreds of millions of years, so in a human lifetime we only get to see one freeze-frame from a single camera angle. Now that we have studied so many more collisions, we can start to piece together the full movie and better understand what is going on.”

            The latest results would seem to rule out the possibility that interactions with dark matter can create a strong frictional force. Next, the team plans to study whether or not a different type of interaction might make dark matter particles bounce off each other or cause dark matter blobs to change their shape.

            One theory posits that dark matter might be made up of so-called “supersymmetric” particles – a new, unconfirmed and more massive particle that interacts only weakly with electrons, protons, neutrons and the other known particles of the Standard Model.

            The research paper, entitled “The non-gravitational interactions of dark matter in colliding galaxy clusters,” is in the latest installment of the journal Science.

            Now according to your statement you wouldn’t believe in invisible dark matter just as you wouldn’t believe in an invisible God. It’s important to consider the indirectness involved in observation of God or Dark matter, for that matter lol.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s a good first step Paul.
            You’re no longer in denial!
            Clear design and purpose…..or magic!
            No, no, you’re not crazy! Believers in God are!
            Loon.
            Feel free to explain it all to us smart guy.
            We’ll wait.
            ………………………………………………………….
            …………………………………………………………….
            …………………………? Nothing?
            Not surprising. Hey didn’t THAT explode in your theory?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            No offense here. To you what does Evolution actually mean from your perspective? I’ve seen you say this a number of times but without an explanation for what Evolution is.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, I”LL check over at the NaZ! gathering of twelve year old liberals who hate Christians and hate America.
            I’ll be right over. Hold your breath…

          • MisterPine

            Right, because you’re such a wealth of great, solid scientific information, aren’t you. Go get ’em, tiger, you well-informed warrior of Christ, you.

          • The Last Trump

            I must confess, my scientific knowledge on the subject pales in comparison to your detailed explanation of, “it’s not magic”!
            Hee, hee! What a nut!
            Look out atheist! NOTHING might explode again right next to you!

          • MisterPine

            What, “exploding nothing” again? Still beating the living hell out of that strawman? Maybe if you read the articles, you’ll see that that has NOTHING to do with evolution.

            I get your empty headed braying. But did you read it? Guessing not. Because the truth is so hard to take, isn’t it?

          • MisterPine

            This one’s getting some GREAT feedback from your fans, but I’ll just share this one because it’s so good – hee hee hee!

            “The last Chump here is really starting to get on my nerves. It’s not that he is wrong about everything, its that he’s so smug about it. It’s like playing a game of chess with a chimp, and losing because it’s stuck my king up it’s anu$.”

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

          • The Last Trump

            It’s really quite disturbing just how much pleasure you and your hate group glean from shamelessly attacking and “attempting” to intimidate, ridicule and humiliate others. Are you foaming at the mouth yet? Are death threats for me and my family in order? Should my pizzeria be burned down?

            The comments left at your altar of hate sounds like the kind of cheap, crude conversation hateful and intolerant people would partake in, doesn’t it? Sad that that makes you so proud. 🙁

            Sounds very similar to what Naz!s would have said about the Jews. Well, at least I wasn’t referred to as vermin, right? How very unfortunate for you to have known such grace and such class in your youth, only to become the monster you are now, indulging in such shameful behaviour. How I thank God for His gifts of morality and virtue, and for having called me out from such a life as yours.

            But don’t let it bother you. I forgive you, Pine.
            Because Christ has forgiven me and He is my example.
            So continue posting on your hate site. It’s of no consequence to me. It only brings shame to you. And does more damage to your own cause than my words ever could.

            I sincerely hope you take a long, hard look at your posts and ask yourself if this is really who you are. A truly tolerant and loving human being would be ashamed of themselves.

          • MisterPine

            So THIS is what it takes to wipe the smugness off your face and show you exactly how much pain you are causing other people – to take your words which seem so delightful in the company of other bigots, and put them in a public arena where you can see the damage they really cause?

            And for the last time, that is not “my” group – the site has been there for years and I think provides a very important service to show the scary beliefs that people adhere to in the name of their Gods. Christianity, which was supposed to be all about love and kindness and tolerance and acceptance, in the hands of people like you becomes the opposite. None of this is going to sink in, of course. You’re going to do what you always do and turn it around and make ME the hater, the intolerant bigot, the naz!, etc., while you continue to call homosexuals “deviants” and “perverts.”

          • The Last Trump

            ?

            THIS is what it takes?!

            You clearly have your shameful Gaystapo tactics confused with the forgiving message of EASTER. Not surprising.
            Your type know very little about real love and forgiveness. 🙁

            And still raging on with hate and intolerance? How very sad.
            I will pray for you, brother.

            Why don’t you take a break from your hate for Easter. Take the day off from your militant religious bigotry and discrimination and enjoy the holiday with your family.
            Surely you have other things that you are good at?

          • MisterPine

            I quote myself:

            “You’re going to do what you always do and turn it around and make ME the hater, the intolerant bigot, the naz!, etc., while you continue to call homosexuals “deviants” and “perverts.”

            And just look at what you did, Rumpy. You’re nothing if not predictable.

          • SpeakTruth

            I guess we ran Mr. Trump off.

          • The Last Trump

            Right here sweetie.
            Don’t scare so easy. Sorry. 🙁

          • SpeakTruth

            I’m glad! You just said you would come back later.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh, sorry! Was talking to Pinemeister.
            So tell me, why atheist mom? And why then, on a Christian website?

          • SpeakTruth

            I am a mom and an atheist. I get a daily email from Disqus alerting me when someone I follow has commented on an article. I also follow certain issues, LGBT rights being one. I don’t troll Christian sites, however, I do read articles and comment on both liberal and conservative sites. The Indiana law has been a big topic lately and this site has offered a few articles on the topic.

          • The Last Trump

            Confused. Don’t mean to pry. Why LGBT rights? I saw you have a husband. Your children? Close friends or family? Just an issue dear to your heart? And you follow MisterPine? I guess I should take it easy on him, huh? He’s not so bad. Just passionate about what he believes, as are we all. We’ve just been sparring all day like a couple of knuckle heads! 🙂

          • SpeakTruth

            Not my children, either. I do have close friends that are gay, however. I grew up in a small southern town. I didn’t meet a Catholic person, a Jewish person, a Muslim person, or a gay person (that I was aware of) until I moved away. My history teacher referred to The Battle of Bull Run as the Battle of Manassas (the name used by Confederates). We had a Bible reading every morning after the Pledge. When I moved away to go to college, I worked at the Republican Party and was a member of the College Republicans. I worked on and contributed to campaigns for Republican candidates. It wasn’t until I began to meet people from other places with different perspectives that I started to question my world view. Christianity hadn’t made sense since I was about 12. I asked questions about the bible, but the answers weren’t adequate, and as an adult I found it no more believable than any other holy text. When I got to that point, it occurred to me that if the bible is not divine, then the rules in it were man made. Being gay isn’t bad, desiring something someone else has is not necessarily bad, getting divorced is best sometimes, etc. Becoming a non-theist was a long process, but once I got there, denying rights and privileges to people based on someone’s interpretation of one of the many religions practiced today became a terrible injustice, especially after I had grown to know and love many gay people. My husband and I are raising our children to treat people the way they want to be treated. They are now 22, 16, and 14, and they have gay friends or friends with gay parents and think nothing of it. They are incredulous that some of those people could be denied service because the business owner doesn’t believe being gay is ok.
            Too much info? Lol!

          • The Last Trump

            Not at all. Thank you for sharing. Yes, I realize the gay issue is a sensitive one. And not so black and white. Yet Christians are simply trying to remain faithful to the Bible, believing it to be, in fact, the Word of God. Kind of puts us in a difficult position. Not so black and white for us either. Not about hate or bigotry. It’s about the clear design of male and female and the core structure of family. Which today, let’s face it, is in utter chaos. Just saw an article about three men who got married. And a father to his daughter! Where will it end?
            You mentioned you no longer believe the Bible.
            What was it about Christianity that you couldn’t come to grips with?

          • SpeakTruth

            Well, around age 12 I started wondering things like if God created Adam and Eve in his image, where did the cavemen come from. And if they only had Cain and Abel, where did everyone else come from. How did dinosaurs fit on the arc. Lol! The older I got, my questions became a little more sophisticated, like if you have to believe in Jesus to get into heaven, do all of the tribal people in Africa that never knew about Jesus go to hell. Why doesnt God speak to people like he used to. Why doesn’t God make himself known to everyone if he wants us to believe in and love him. Why would God make his son suffer for OUR sins when he could just forgive us. Maybe we wouldn’t sin at all if he made himself known to everyone and made himself clear. Why do christians seem no better off than any other people. In other words, christians seem no healthier, happier, than people of other religions. Prayers are ineffective except perhaps having some relaxing, meditative quality. Bible stories seemed more like fables or mythology. I started really reading/researching the bible about 20 years ago. Who wrote it and when, what language, etc. Then I started researching other contemporary documents and the culture and politics of the time. I actually wanted confirmation that Jesus was the son of God, that there was a heaven. It was unsettling to think that I wouldn’t be reunited with family members after I died. But, the more I learned the more I realized the bible was only writings of men with a limited knowledge of the world. Prophesies weren’t fulfilled, it was just that people wrote about Jesus years after he died and shoehorned his story to fit the prophesies, etc. And IF the bible wasn’t factual or the word of God, then…..
            I realize most christians that believe being gay is a sin are not mean hateful bigots. (Although I do know some who are). There is a couple with whom we are very dear friends. They strongly believe homosexuality is a terrible sin. Their oldest son, however, is gay. They sent him to Christian counsellors, and even sent him to therapy to make him “not be gay anymore.” Although I strongly agree with medical and mental health pros that this therapy is extremely harmful to children, I witnessed the agony of the parents. They “know” that if their son acts on his feelings, his soul will be damned eternally. They are good people and they love their kids, but their sorrow is real. I don’t mean to insult your beliefs, but it is so clear to me that gods were created by man and Christianity is as unbelievable as every other religion.

          • The Last Trump

            No insult taken. I used to be where you are now. And I’ve had similar questions and more! And I was once very outspoken AGAINST the Bible and Christianity. I actually became a Christian BECAUSE I checked it out and have continued researching it for the last 23 years. During that time I saw incredible bias against Christianity and the authenticity of the Bible, particularly in mainstream media and tv. Actually shocking the outright lying and misinformation that gets presented to the masses. Had I not been doing my own research from reputable sources, these false reports would have ended my own walk with Christ.

            I always thought stories like Noah’s Ark, Mount Sinai, and the Red Sea Crossing were just that, stories. I had no idea that there was actual evidence supporting these stories. Evidence of a world wide flood and fossils from sea life in the highest mountains on Earth, remains of what appears to be Noah’s Ark discovered in Turkey (been declared a “National Treasure” and a tourist site since the 1980’s. Who knew?!), the discovery of Mount Sinai with its blackened top (the ONLY mountain in the entire range with a burned peak- the Bible says the peak of Mount Sinai was blackened when “God” descended on it to meet with Moses) massive boulder with a peculiar split down the middle with clear evidence of water erosion coming from it (?) to the surrounding area (Moses reportedly struck the rock and water gushed out to satisfy the thirst of the Jewish people) and Egyptian chariot wheels discovered in the Red Sea between the two stone columns on the shores indicating the location of the crossing. Wild stuff. NONE OF THIS EVIDENCE SHOULD EXIST, right? And yet there it is. And there is so much more.

            The Jesus question is a big one. Who was He really? Many “scholars” today ridiculously question whether or not He even existed. Consider the staggering repercussions of just the mere three and a half year ministry of Christ that revolutionized Western society. It is a matter of historical record that it was Christian people in Christian nations who abolished slavery, established laws protecting individual rights, elevated the status of women, protected the rights of children, established unprecedented worldwide humanitarian organizations like The Red Cross and The Salvation Army, and inspired some of the greatest works of art, architecture, music, and literature the world has ever seen. If Jesus was not who He claimed to be than how do we account for this? Just a three and a half year ministry and He never wrote a single thing! Not bad for a guy that didn’t exist!

            And then there is the Shroud of Turin. Another fascinating piece of history that shouldn’t exist. Over the years I’ve keep my eye on the research done on this extraordinary object. It is, in fact, the single most studied artifact in human history. After 35 years of extensive scientific study researchers to this day cannot explain how the image was formed on this ancient burial cloth. They can, however, tell us what it is not. It is NOT a painting. The cloth has traces of pollen from plants native to Jerusalem and is covered in blood stains from a flogged and crucified Jewish man bearing wounds matching exactly with the gospel accounts of the wounds inflicted on Christ. Astoundingly, the mysterious image on the cloth turns out to be a photographic negative (the very first negative, long before the advent of photography) somehow produced by an unknown light source, from the inside, and appearing only on the smallest microscopic fibers of the cloth. No such shroud exists for Buddha, Mohammad, the Dali Lama or any other religious charismatic. Jesus claimed to have been resurrected and the apostles claimed to have been eyewitnesses of his resurrection. The birth and spread of Christianity were founded on His resurrection. Here we have a veritable “picture” of The Resurrection on display for the world to see. If this burial cloth with a scientifically unexplainable image bearing a beaten, flogged, and crucified man is not evidence of The Resurrection than what do you think it is?
            Remarkably, a single attempt at carbon dating dated the shroud to around the 1300’s, so, of course, that ended all debate for the skeptics, despite still having absolutely no idea how they could have produced such an image at that time. Thus, the controversy rages on. Any scientist will tell you that when you have an overwhelming body of scientific data telling you one thing, and only one result calling into question all the rest, it’s not the overwhelmingly consistent body of data that you throw out, it’s the one anomaly! Yet, this is the kind of strange behaviour we regularly find from “objective scientists” regarding Christianity. It is widely believed (by scientists, not religious fanatics) that medieval patches applied to the damaged shroud are to be blamed for the dating discrepancy.
            For those who choose to remain sceptical, what do they tell themselves? That The Shroud is just somehow the greatest forgery of all time, created several hundred years ago yet somehow designed to fool future scientific disciplines that had not even been invented yet? Seriously?
            Incidentally, some of the members of the scientific research team have since become Christians and gone on the record publicly with their personal belief that this remarkable cloth is genuine evidence of The Resurrection. These people are scientists, not religious nuts. They actually handled and studied The Shroud and have concluded that based on the scientific data it might be in their best interests to follow the teachings of someone who claimed to have been resurrected 2000 years ago, while the uninformed and the ignorant today are busy debating endlessly about whether or not He even existed. As usual, I’m going to have to side with the scientists.
            Too many things point in the direction of the Bible. And prophecy is being fulfilled before our very eyes at an alarming rate. Israel was supposed to be become a nation again, and after a 2000 year wait…check. She would be surrounded by enemies committed to her destruction…check. The world would attempt to divide her land, and more specifically divide Jerusalem…check and check. Christ would return to save His people in their greatest hour of need at Armageddon, when they were beaten and alone with no allies and no friends in the White House to save them. And all of this would occur during a period of world wide godlessness, sexual anarchy, immorality, violence, apostasy (falling away from the faith), and financial collapse. Hmmm. How’s the Bible doing so far?
            Things might not be as cut and dried as you once thought. I would encourage you to take another look and give God one last opportunity to show Himself to you. What have you got to lose right? A simple prayer asking God to reveal Himself to you and set you on the path of discovery is all it takes. And yet, most people can’t even bring themselves to do that! Christianity is unparalleled as a driving force for good in mankind, and is responsible for miraculous transformations in the lives of the lost, the broken and down trodden. It has certainly seen me through the worst times of my life and equipped me with the tools to endure those trials with the right attitude of hope and optimism to see me through to the other side. But we are currently witnessing the death of Christianity as the “light of the world” is being stamped out across the world and quickly diminishing in even America, who once exported it around the globe. I shudder to think of just how dark this world is going to be without it. For those currently applauding its demise, I would caution to remember the lessons from the past regarding the truly horrific things men do to one another in godless societies. Communist and fascist governments alone have killed more of their OWN people than have died in all the wars combined!
            Anyway, if you ever want to explore this further you know where to find me. I’ve got lots of great links to documentaries regarding the scientific evidence supporting the accuracy and authenticity of the Bible should you be so inclined, including docs on the examples mentioned above. Take care and have a great Easter! Check out the 3rd Blood Moon of the Tetrad happening on Easter (Passover) again! Interesting times…:)

          • MisterPine

            More to the point, Mr. Trump would like to run US off, and probably run us over as well.

          • The Last Trump

            Soooo hateful MisterPine!
            People who disagree don’t run people over.
            Well, non liberals don’t.
            GET HELP.

          • MisterPine

            Get yourself some help, evolution denier. You need it badly.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzzz….

          • MisterPine

            Sleeping doesn’t change the fact that your belief system is a joke.

          • Oboehner

            Zzzzz…. I’m not dancing around claiming science.

          • MisterPine

            Neither am I. I’m claiming science with evidence, no dancing involved.

          • The Last Trump

            Don’t claim it. Prove it.
            Or else beat it. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Happy to. Here is an excellent place to start, with easy to understand explanations that even a fundie should be able to understand. No big color pictures for you, but hey, you can’t have everything.

            Read it. And then, YOU beat it.

            http://evolution.berkeley.edu

          • Paul Hiett

            He won’t read it. They never read any of the links they are provided. He’ll probably come back either insulting you, or linking you to some religious website, probably Ken Hamm’s…or both.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            They never read any of the links they are provided.
            How can you make such a claim, Mr. Hiett?
            When I’ve used your own links against you, several times?

          • Paul Hiett

            Other than proving you wrong, you mean?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Umm…what?
            They proved you wrong. And, I read them, thus explaining how I used them against you. Seriously, is English your second language?

          • MisterPine

            Or he’ll do what Oboehner does and state that it’s not proof. And call it a religion. Go to fstdt.com and keep checking it. Trump is going to be a star over there in a day or two as they start to post more of his patent absurdities. While you’re there, look up Oboehner. I have made him a star.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh that’s hilarious. I should probably add Nick over there. They’d love his ideas that the Spanish Inquisition never reached the new world, or that Christmas and Easter weren’t rooted in pagan traditions.

          • MisterPine

            Yeah, please do. These crazed fundamentalists don’t seem to respond well to facts and science, but public humiliation dies tend to get their attention a little more.

          • The Last Trump

            Hee, hee!
            You’re just adorable!
            Made us a “star!” Guess that makes you my…agent? HA!
            Keep up the good work. Sounds like a great way for you l0sers to actually read the Bible! Doh! 😉

          • The Last Trump

            THAT was a lot stuff. About MAGIC!
            Sorry guys. No such thing as magic sky magic.
            Just Design. 🙂
            But tolerant guy that I am, I have no problem with your religious beliefs about the accidental and completely purposeless magical account of creation. Enjoy!
            (yikes!)

          • MisterPine

            Ah, now THAT one is submission-worthy! Thanks! (Religion, eh? Who is the evolutionist’s messiah? And what is his holy book? Didn’t think this through, did you?)

          • The Last Trump

            Am I a STAR yet, skippy? 🙂
            Make sure you let all of my adoring fans know where they can see me perform! I’m here all week!
            TaTa
            🙂

          • MisterPine

            Takes a couple days usually.

          • MisterPine

            Oh, and they are just LOVING your open mindedness…

            http://www.fstdt.com/Search.aspx?Fundie=Last+trump

          • The Last Trump

            Well thank you, MisterIntolerance.
            We sure are enjoying yours HERE!

          • MisterPine

            Yep, I think my favourite comment was “Funny, that second list sounded a whole lot like fundie Christians to
            me. Hate, check. Narrow-minded, check. Intolerance, check…..”

            And there it is, the very thing you keep trying to throw back in my face but you can’t because I’m not oppressing anyone. (No, not even Christians, just bigoted haters of homosexuals who HAPPEN to be Christians).

          • The Last Trump

            ?
            !!
            Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
            Oh, man! You are TOO much!
            Let me get this straight…NOW You’re READING to me comments made by OTHER nerds who are hateful and intolerant ABOUT hate and intolerance on a completely different forum where fascists gather to discriminate?! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ! Please! No more! Killin’ me!
            Ohhhhh, brother! My stomach hurts!
            Yeah, I guess your petty and infantile attempts to “intimidate” people by “threatening” them (big surprise from your types) to send their posts to a Naz! checkpoint for more bullying, abuse and attacks only works if THEY CARE and actually GO TO the Naz! checkpoint to bother to read YOUR HATEFUL nonsense!!
            Too funny MisterIntolerance! STD’s.com….the Gaystapo in action! Love it! Yeah, you don’t look stup!d.
            Keep up the hate brother! Make sure you keep us posted on what the other nerds have to say, ok?
            Hee, hee. What a nut.

          • MisterPine

            The comments continue to roll in. All of them are calling you out for the exact reason that you should be called out.

          • The Last Trump

            Thanks again for spreading our message to your intolerant site.
            There may be hope for a few of them there when they read our posts and discover the glaring hypocrisy, hate and intolerance in their own hearts.
            You’re doing a great job MisterIntolerance! Keep it up! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            I’ve already told you, it isn’t my site. It’s been there for years. It’s there to allow fundies to give us all a good laugh based on their ridiculous beliefs, such as yours about nothing exploding and that somehow having something to do with evolution.

          • The Last Trump

            Riiiight. Magic.
            Got it.
            (Koo koo!)

          • MisterPine

            Magic? Your little man in the sky you mean?
            Got it.
            (Koo koo!)

          • Oboehner

            Just empty claims.

          • MisterPine

            LOL

          • The Last Trump

            I know! You too?!
            Funny right?
            ‘What difference does it make to YOUR life?’ right!
            And lets not forget this classic, ‘We just want to be left alone!’
            Hee, hee! Did they sucker us OR WHAT!
            Won’t be falling for that nonsense again will we! People beginning to wake up and pass legislation to protect themselves from LGBT bullying. About time eh, you defender of religious rights you! 😉

          • MisterPine

            Well, yes, excellent points. What difference DOES it make to your life, and why CAN’T you just leave them alone? Answer the questions. If you want to convince any court of law, never mind the general public, how the big bad mean homosexuals are oppressing you, I’m sure everyone is all ears. Can you answer, or are you just going to parrot your self satisfied hee hee hee’ing?

          • The Last Trump

            Says the loon on THE CHRISTIAN WEBSITE harassing all the Christians about THEIR beliefs!!!!!!!!!!
            Does your hypocrisy know no bounds?
            Perhaps I was wrong about you. There is no hope. 🙁
            I guess there really is no reasoning with liberals.
            Ya’ll are clearly nuts.

          • MisterPine

            Still no answer, just more lunatic ravings.
            Why should I care if this is a Christian website? I speak out against hate where I happen to see it. You are simply fighting for the right to hate and oppress in the name of your religion. That’s just cutting through all your BS, Trump, and laying the facts out bare.

          • The Last Trump

            Pointing out CLEAR hypocrisy is lunatic ravings, huh?
            Where you “happen” to see it! Is that what you keep telling yourself? TOO FUNNY!! Christian News just POPS up on your computer eh? Clown.

            And be careful, oh “tolerant” one. Your hate is showing.
            I’m just a Christian on a Christian website who supports traditional marriage and does not support homosexuality. “Fighting for the right to hate and oppress!?” That’s just being nasty. I hate no one and I have oppressed exactly NO ONE.

            YOU’RE the one seeking out Christian websites to attack Christians and label as haters pal. Who’s oppressing?

            Let’s see now, how did that go again?
            “Hey mor0n! We just want to be left alone!”
            “What difference does my support of traditional marriage make TO YOUR LIFE?”
            MisterPines :

            “Well, yes, excellent points. What difference DOES it make to your life, and why CAN’T you just leave them alone? Answer the questions. If you want to convince any court of law, never mind the general public, how the big bad mean homosexuals (Christians) are oppressing you, I’m sure everyone is all ears. Can you answer, or are you just going to parrot your self satisfied hee hee hee’ing”

            Hypocrisy’s a b!tch, eh Pinemeister? Now take your own advice and stop embarrassing yourself. Or not. No matter.
            Everyone can clearly see your hypocrisy here, but you.
            Your “agenda” will have no success on this site. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Atheists can post on a Christian web forum just like human beings can post in a web forum about cats. Besides, we have to get our entertainment from somewhere, it may as well be from fundamaniacs.

            Guess what Trump, I support traditional marriage too. In fact not once in my life have I stood in the way of two heterosexuals getting married. And your dishonesty is your whole issue here, you never state what your REAL issue is, which is that you are not “supporting” anything, you are OPPOSING. Is it too hard for you to say that? “I oppose homosexual marriage?” No, because you’ve been taught like the perfect fundie parrot to say “I support traditional marriage” even though it in no way talks about your real agenda.

            And you have the nerve to say with a straight face that you hate no one and oppress no one. YES YOU DO.

            And still no answer to my questions? You took the time to quote them back to me, you took the time to embarrass yourself by showing how I DIDN’T embarrass myself, but never stated how gay marriage affects your own life. Could you be any sadder? Could you be any more of a lying, hateful weasel?

          • The Last Trump

            “And your dishonesty is your whole issue here, you never state what your REAL issue is, which is that you are not “supporting” anything, you are OPPOSING. Is it too hard for you to say that? “I oppose homosexual marriage?” ?????

            You miiight wanna go back and re-read the post DIRECTLY above this one. You know, the one you JUST responded to.

            WHERE I said, “I’m just a Christian on a Christian website who supports traditional marriage and does not support homosexuality.
            You’re losin it, Pine. Think its time for bed, bud. And more capital letters. Cause SOMEBODY can’t read around here!
            (which makes debate somewhat difficult, no? 🙂

          • MisterPine

            You’ve also said “no one here hates homosexuals” immediately after calling them perverts and sodomites.

            My turn for a “hee hee hee” moment, because this really IS funny. No one here hates perverts and sodomites, eh? Your own language condemns you on this one.

            I stand by my original point, you saying you support traditional marriage is irrelevant because this is not about traditional marriage, this is about you wanting to destroy gay marriage.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh so even when you’re clearly wrong, you’re still right.
            Nice. Great debater you are!
            Calling someone pervert or sodomite does not equal hate. I have friends who are BOTH! Sad that you can’t stop with your sick hate mentality. Oh well, that’s YOUR problem. Not going to argue about YOUR delusions. You don’t get to decide what I hate, liberal!
            Don’t be a hater Pinester! Live and let live, bud! Leave all of the innocent Christians alone you bully. You came HERE.

          • MisterPine

            Being your friend in real life must be interesting. I personally call my friends “friends,” and don’t tar them with names like pedophile and sodomite. Whether you want to admit it or not, those are hateful expressions and more to the point they aren’t even fair. This isn’t about my behaviour, it’s about yours. You are the one wanting to deny rights to homosexuals. I may have to keep reminding you of that little fact, even while you shower me with your little epithets.

          • Bruce Morrow

            The problem with such folks that seem to “haunt” Christian websites is that they in reality HATE the God of the Bible, the SOURCE all truth. I am referring to the atheist and other infidels who make it a point to spew their foolishhness in this Christian News Site.

          • MisterPine

            How many times have I heard this from fundies, that I supposedly hate a God whom I do not believe is there?

            Where do you people GET this crap from?

          • Bruce Morrow

            I suppose I am a “hateful, lying weasel” too seeing I OPPOSE homosexuality and surrport marrage as defined by the Bible-one man and one woman for life. Lets see if you start calling me names or laying the most uncharitable imputations to my charge.

          • MisterPine

            To my knowledge, you haven’t lied repeatedly as Last Trump has done, so no, I have no basis for calling you a liar. If you oppose same gender marriage for any reason, however, I do feel sorry for you.

          • Covered California

            Haha right. Let’s keep going back to older and older times. Women cant vote, blacks and whites can marry, Blacks to the back of the bus, those were the DAYS!

          • Oboehner

            Divorce rates were low, families were intact, teen pregnancy was almost unheard of, crime was down, people could leave their houses unlocked without fear, people had jobs, etc…
            Yup those days really sucked.

          • Covered California

            Well at least you didn’t negate what I said. I have respect (to a degree) for bigots who admit theyre bigots instead those trying to run behind “religious freedom” bills to justify their discrimination.

          • Oboehner

            Discrimination against a chosen activity? LOL.
            Maybe the Christian businesses who have to go against their beliefs would serve those people if they quit being gay – if one side has to give, the other should as well right?

          • MisterPine

            If providing s service to people they don’t like goes against their beliefs, then they should not be in business.

          • Oboehner

            If people don’t like their activity choice, they should do something else.

          • MisterPine

            That is none of your business.

          • Paul Hiett

            Your religion is a chosen activity, is it not?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Sodomy is a chosen activity, is it not, Mr. Hiett?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, something many Christians also engage in, do they not, in the privacy of their own bedrooms?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So what? If homosexuals kept their deviant acts in the privacy of the own bedrooms, how could anyone discriminate against them, Mr. Hiett?

          • Paul Hiett

            They are Nick. You seem to have a problem with what they are doing in the privacy of their homes for some reason.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Making a mockery of Holy Matrimony and performing counterfeit SS “weddings” is not keeping it private, Mr. Hiett. Another fail, for you, I’m afraid.

          • Paul Hiett

            You said nothing about SSM, Nick. You specifically said “sodomy”, as you recall. In fact, here’s your quote:

            Nick_from_Detroit

            43 minutes ago
            Sodomy is a chosen activity, is it not, Mr. Hiett?

            So when presented with information that puts Christians in the same light as homosexuals, you suddenly change your tune.

            How predictable.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No, I didn’t mention SS counterfeit “marriage,” Mr. Hiett.
            Obehner did, or, he implied it, in the comment to which you replied, when he wrote, “Discrimination against a chosen activity? LOL.”

            Is this not a thread about the Arkansas RFRA law? Aren’t we all talking about forcing people to provide services/products to SS counterfeit “weddings”? These so-called “weddings” imply sodomy. Try to keep up, okay?

          • Paul Hiett

            You said sodomy was a chosen behavior, and I simply pointed out the irony in religion being a choice as well.

            You simply didn’t like the fact you had nothing to refute the logic, so you decided to change the subject.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Logic is not a word I would use to describe your comments or arguments, Mr. Hiett. Sorry.
            You’re chronology is wrong, too. You brought up that religion was a choice, and I simply pointed out that sodomy is too.
            Update: The pizza shop owners now have over $179,000!! Thanks, homo-fascists!

          • Paul Hiett

            No, I’m not wrong at all. You said sodomy was a choice, and I pointed out that so is one’s choice of a religion.

            You simply don’t have the ability to see the parallels.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            When you can’t even get the timeline correct, Mr. Hiett, what parallels am I supposed to see?

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re right on the timeline.

            The point stands though. Both sodomy and religion are choices, are they not?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, that was my point, Mr. Hiett.

          • Paul Hiett

            So what gives your choice the right to discriminate against their choice?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            We’ve been through this before, remember, Mr. Hiett? The freedom to contract, associate, and exercise ones religious beliefs.

            Wasn’t your point to Oboehnor that if it’s okay to discriminate based on Christian beliefs, it should be okay to discriminate based homosexual beliefs? Did I misunderstand your quip, “Your religion is a chosen activity, is it not”?

            I’m glad that you could finally admit that you were mistaken about…something.

          • Paul Hiett

            First, let’s get this “freedom of association” out of the way. Freedom of association does not apply to a public business. This is simply a fact, and not debatable. Any attempt by you to do so is simply ignorance on your part. If you feel the need to try, go and read up on what it means and to whom it applies to.

            I do not, personally, believe that any kind of discrimination should be tolerated, whether against Christians, Muslims, gays, atheists, etc. None should be tolerated.

            My point, that you and most folks here seem to miss, is that religion is nothing but a choice. You are lobbying your hate and intolerance against people whom you think made nothing but a choice in their lives, just as you have made choices in yours.

            How can you stand there and discriminate against others based solely on your choice of a religion?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Mr. Hiett,
            1) A “public business” is a publicly traded corporation. We are discussing privately owned businesses.
            2) The right to freely associate is but one of the three rights that are being violated by using the force of the government gun to make Christian business owners participate in SS counterfeit “marriage” ceremonies against their will. Which is the action of a tyrant, not a freedom-loving American.
            3) Again, I hate NO ONE, as a Catholic. I tolerate homosexuals. I demand that you reciprocate. Toleration doesn’t mean that I have to associate with you, or, do business with you.
            4) If you don’t want to do business with Christians based on our beliefs, or actions, go right ahead. It won’t bother us one bit.

          • Paul Hiett

            1. By “public” I meant a business that sells to the public, my mistake on that. A private business that sells to the general public may not discriminate based on race, gender, or religion. Some states have now added “sexual orientation” to that list. This is where your idea of “freedom of association” is wrong.

            What kills your argument entirely is the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I had hoped you would bother reading it (no, it’s not the Voting Rights Act of 1965).

            Read the Civil Rights Act, and then come back and explain why you think a business that sells to the public is exempt.

            Good luck.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Some states have now added “sexual orientation” to that list.
            Some states had Jim Crow laws. Did that make them right?

            Read the Civil Rights Act, and then come back and explain why you think a business that sells to the public is exempt.

            I’ve read the relevant portions, and, I’ve explained why they’re wrong. This phony notion of so-called “public accommodation” is new in our jurisprudence. SCOTUS will probably do away with it, vis-a-vis religious objections, when it finally reaches them. Just as they did with Hobby Lobby.

          • Paul Hiett

            Whether you agree with the Civil Rights Act or not (and what kind of a person would disagree with it?) is irrelevant. It’s the law.

            This is why businesses are being sued/fined for not obeying the law.

            Now, you can choose civil disobedience, as these places are…as Rosa Parks did. But she still went to jail. She accepted the consequences of her actions, while still fighting what she believed to be an injust law.

            Christians are free to engage in such civil disobedience, but crying about the consequences only makes them look childish.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Many people disagree with that provision of the Civil Rights Act. The fact that you are ignorant of our existence only proves how insulated your world view is, Mr. Hiett. Try to be more open minded, okay?
            No one is crying. But, when our civil rights are violated, we should all speak out, Chrisian, Jew, Moslem, and atheist.
            It’s nice to know that you agree that Rosa Parks should’ve been arrested for not giving up her seat on that bus, because she violated the unjust ordinance that required it.
            But, again, these current special protections for homosexuals end where my rights to freely contract, associate, and exercise my religious beliefs, begin.

          • Paul Hiett

            Laws exist for a reason…and our ability to change those laws exists for a reason. Yes, Rosa Parks should have been arrested as per the law of the day. The law really never should have existed in the first place, but the world moves slowly when it comes to civil rights. Regardless, if you break the law, no matter what you feel about the law, you should be prepared to accept the consequences.

            Your problem, based on what appears to be mind blowing ignorance, is that you think the laws of commerce are the same as all other laws. I’m really not sure why you think a business has the right to discriminate, especially after the CRA of 64, but that’s your choice.

            The rest of the the US is moving on without you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            The law really never should have existed in the first place, but the world moves slowly when it comes to civil rights.

            And, I say the same about these so-called “public accommodation” ordinances. They swing the pendulum too far the other way. My arguments are based on the Constitution and English common law. Yours are based on your feelings, Mr. Hiettt.
            This is no way to run a society.

          • MisterPine

            Feelings, eh?
            Says the man who openly rages about the “homo-fascists”. Nothing feeling-related there.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh looky, looky!
            Pinester found yet ANOTHER Christian to attack on the Christian News website! Spreading your “love” to the fundies, eh hater!
            Go figure.

          • MisterPine

            Just one of the resident gay-bashers. Sorry if you thought you were the only one.

          • The Last Trump

            No need to be sorry. I know you can’t control yourself.
            Christian basher.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then by all means, engage in civil disobedience. Open a store and refuse to sell to whomever you want. Fight the unjust laws you believe are in place. But, be prepared to sit in jail while you do it. You might also want to be prepared to have very, very little support, not to mention a lack of empathy from the courts.

            But…that’s your choice. If you think a theocracy is how we should do it, go for it!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Why don’t the homo-fascists do the same, Mr. Hiett?
            When the citizens of 31 states passed bans on SS counterfeit “marriage,” what did your side do? Accept it? No.
            They judged-shopped to find fascist jurists who overturned those laws. Don’t you libs believe in democracy anymore?
            No, you believe in oligarchy and despotism, Mr. Hiett.

          • Paul Hiett

            Nick, the “homo-fascists” did that. They are doing it still…because the tyrannical Christians think their choice of a religion gives them the right to discriminate. So, in the face of what they felt was injustice, they fought it.

            They used sound, legal tactics to work to get the laws changed. Guess what…they did it right.

            Now, if you are so sure that your position is right and true and just, then you’ll have no problem rallying all of Christendom behind you and get them gays back in the closet. Right?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It’s not only Christians who can discriminate, Mr. Hiett. Everyone can. For whatever reason. This is the point you can’t seem to grasp, I’m afraid.
            Plus, they didn’t use “sound, legal tactics.” They found fascistic judges who agreed with them, who ignored ConLaw 101. People who care not one iota about private property rights, or the freedom to contract.
            Why is it okay for one judge (or 2 out of 3) to overturn the will of the voting public? They passed the ban, why won’t your homo-fascist pals abide by the law?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Nick, when you use this word, how are you applying it to the discussion. I’m a bit confused by that. Thanks.

            :fascism

            a way of organizing a society in which a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people and in which people are not allowed to disagree with the government
            : very harsh control or authority

            Full Definition of FASCISM
            1
            often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
            2
            : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

            Examples of FASCISM

            the rise of Fascism in Europe before World War II
            From the first hours of Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union, the propagandists on both sides of the conflict portrayed the struggle in stark, Manichaean language. The totalitarian nature of both regimes made this inevitable. On one side stood Hitler, fascism, the myth of German supremacy; on the other side stood Stalin, communism, and the international proletarian revolution. —Anne Applebaum, New York Review of Books, 25 Oct. 2007

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            LIFE,
            I’m using it in it’s most basis form. All leftwing movements that use thuggish, brutish tactics to intimidate their opponents. From union goons, to the Bolsheviks, to Mussolini’s Black Shirts, to the [email protected]; they all started by demonizing their opponents, in print, to marginalize them. Today’s lefties rely on the teachings of Saul Alinsky to swarm upon their ideological opponents.
            Ferguson, and, now, these Indiana & Arkansas RFRA laws are just more attempts to stoke the flames of discontent, in order to spark the fires of more riots, this summer. The left in this country is very disappointed in Obama, just like they were with LBJ, in the 1960s. They don’t want Hillary, so, they’re stirring up hatred for their opponents, in order to get them to the polls, a year from now.
            Well, that’s just one man’s opinion, anyway. Hope that helped.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Are you following the Pizza shop that had the bomb threats etc. I’ve been curious about them and how things are going. Keep me updated on that family please. 179,000 that is incredible. The power of Christians is unique.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, LIFE, this is amazing. I’m only updates because I have Pat & Stu on, at the moment. We Christians must stand united against this home-grown fascism.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I’m thrilled for them. I won’t go as far as to call someone fascist, however that is one awesome response to those people.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m sorry, LIFE, but I really don’t know what else to call it. This attempt to shame people, to call us bigots (they don’t even know what the word means) because we won’t compromise our Christian principles and actually live our Christian faith, is exactly what the left has done for over century, now.

            It may sound harsh, but, I find it apt, as a student of history. After the stupid Occupy Wall Street movement, to what happened in Ferguson, MO, to this coordinated attack on RFRA laws, it’s time to stand up to these bullies, don’t you think? Do we have to wait for a Christian Kristallnacht to occur in this nation?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I understand what your saying. In the heat of the moment there is going to be words of attack, counterattack, personal attacks etc. That is what I have got to work on, and encourage all Christians to do something similar and here is why: These discussions are going to be irrelevant as soon as they are spoken. There is no solution to people’s opinions, knowledge etc. Everyone has unique gifts. Only when two people can come together from opposite positions and negotiate solutions will any of this get any better. Otherwise, you may as well call it entertainment, because that is all it can be. To make a Christian impression takes, well it takes being slapped around a bit. After all Christ and his followers were slapped around a lot. We as U.S. Christians have freedoms that the Christians in other parts of the world don’t have, and they give up their lives because of following Christ. There may come a time where we are faced with the same things. What we do at the time of testing, now and into the future will tell our story of how we live, and represent the Christian life. Nothing else will do. So understand, using our gifts is one thing, your obviously intelligent. Showing that we really are Christians that follow Jesus explicitly should be our goal. Believe me I’ve been pushed into the corner, and gotten angry. It’s a work in progress, but at the end of the day, its nice to hear someone say “I don’t always agree with everything you have said but I’ve followed your comments and you seem reasonable and kind” That came from a man after a discussion I had on this very site. Now THAT is what I live for. We didn’t agree but we were kind to each other.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            It’s fine to agree to disagree, with reasonable people, LIFE.
            But, these homo-fascists are not reasonable. Mr. Hiett isn’t either. He is intellectually dishonest, at least with me. If he’s reasonable with you, fine.
            I’m not including Mr. Hiett with the homo-fascists that have descended on Memories Pizza with vile attacks, by the way. I haven’t seen him do any such thing. The fascists are the ones using the courts, media, and threats to get Christians to cave into their demands of acceptance. I’m not angry at them. I feel sorry for them, because all they do is repeat lies. I pray that they see the Light. Happy Easter, to you and your family, LIFE. God Bless!

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I understand your position Nick. Thank you for your comments. When it comes to Memories Pizza, the threats they received are unbelievable and I agree with you. I’ve spoken with Paul and though he is a strong atheist and thus interested in what happens in these cases, I don’t agree with his position, but he has his opinions.

          • Paul Hiett

            I also have a personal interest in the issue. I’m the father of a 21 year old lesbian, whom I love dearly.

            When you see how ugly religion can be to your own child…it can change your perspective on things, like homosexuality. It wasn’t that long ago I was like many on here. “eeeeeeew”!!!!

            Life has a way of humbling people into understanding.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I am humbled Paul. Now I understand completely. Thank you sir for explaining. I hope your daughter is doing well, and I appreciate your telling me. Believe me when I tell you I have nothing but love and admiration for you and your daughter.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Thank you, LIFE, for your thoughtful responses.
            I’ve found that Mr. Hiett does not engage in honest debate. But, I’ll still be civil to him. Again, feel free to correct me, if (I should say, “when“) you find me being uncharitable, in the future. Take care.

          • Paul Hiett

            Pretty sure you wouldn’t know the first thing about being “honest”.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            As a Catholic, a believer in God, I’m very well-versed in honesty, Mr. Hiett. Sins against the truth are very serious in my Faith.
            You, however, as an atheist, have no such allegiance to the truth. So, I can only go by how you make your arguments, which you do badly. When you do make them, instead of just repeating the arguments of others.

          • MisterPine

            May I ask what you are talking about, Nick from Detroit? I have caught you lying and deceiving on this forum so many times I have lost count. All Paul does is present facts. Tell me one single time where he didn’t. Is honestly so difficult fir you, Nick from Detroit?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            If you’ve caught me in sooooo many lies, Mr. Pine, it should be no trouble at all to list them, should it not?
            Also, Mr. Hiett rarely presents facts. He presents the opinions of others, as if they’re established facts , then, when shown how is “proof” is wrong, refuses to acknowledge it. In fact, he doubles-down on his errors. He also engages in the logical fallacy of begging the question.
            Just look up our argument on the origins of Christmas and Easter, for examples.

          • The Last Trump

            ANOTHER lying Christian busted by the tolerant and loving MisterClean!
            Go get’em you misguided loon. Clean this place up of all the Christians.
            Onward and upward!
            🙂

          • MisterPine

            Well, I’m really not interested in your squawking and bluster, T-Rump. You can either prove what I said is incorrect or you can shut your mouth.

          • The Last Trump

            Awww, is the wittle baby taking his wittle bawl and gowing home?
            Told you, hater. Get used to me. I live here. 😉

          • The Last Trump

            No, we’ve had no problem with what they do in the privacy of their own homes. They just refuse to do it there. Instead we have to see it on our cereal boxes, in our favourite TV shows, our KINDERGARTENER’S classrooms (!?), parades down Main Street, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
            Hell, these liars even SEEK OUT Christian websites to harass the people who are LEAVING THEM ALONE! AND THEN SCOLD CHRISTIANS ABOUT “LIVE AND LET LIVE”!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Take your hypocrisy and your gay agenda, and BY ALL MEANS, stew in it in the privacy of your OWN homes. Stay off Christian websites and stop being hateful bigots who infringe on religious freedom. It’s ugly and illegal. We can follow the teachings of the Bible with OR WITHOUT YOUR BLESSING! Sorry haters. 🙁

          • Paul Hiett

            You see people engaging in coitus on tv, on cereal boxes, and classrooms?

            Really?

            You have a lot of pent up anger at something.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. You need to tear yourself away from Christian websites and get out more.
            “You see people engaging in coitus on tv, on ceral boxes, & in classrooms’?
            YOU DON’t?!! What, you got rid of cable 10 years ago? Missed all the articles about parents SHOCKED at what their kids have been exposed to in school classrooms?
            Somebody’s out of touch with reality. Explains many of your posts.

          • Paul Hiett

            Care to link me an article that says such things were being shown in a kindergarten classroom?

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, not likely. Do your own research you lazy troll.
            I love you guys. “Care to send me some links to actual facts while I sit here on my duff (and probably in your underwear) and troll this site spewing nonsense and eating my bag of chips in my mother’s basement? And then after you do, I don’t bother to read them anyway or simply disagree with the facts presented in favour of my own opinion and bias?” Riiiight. Not gonna happen.
            That’s your problem. You don’t do your own research. I know commenting on EVERY post from EVERY Christian must be time consuming, eh? Hard to find time away from glorifying your own opinion in search of actual fact. Good luck with your re-education program bud. Folks around here do their own research and are well informed. Nobody has to ask anyone else for links. Enjoy your chips in your mother’s basement lazy.
            (Oh and, this is the part where you say, “So you can’t provide any links ’cause there isn’t any links to provide eh! Yuk, Yuk!
            Yeah. That’s it. You run with that, you Allstar! And don’t forget to stay hydrated, you couch potato! 🙂

          • Paul Hiett

            So you lied.

          • The Last Trump

            And there it is! The old tired and infantile tactics of the liberal left fascist tyrant wannabes.
            Yeah Paul. I lied. Go with that, cupcake. Whatever helps you to cling to that fantasy world you live in.
            Or, you could do a simple google search.
            Yeah. We both know which option you’re going to choose.
            One of them has 5 entire seconds of work involved.
            As you were. Say hi to your mom, will ya?

          • Paul Hiett

            If it was 5 seconds of work to support your stance, why are you too lazy to do so? You made the claim. Provide the proof.

            Or, you lied.

          • The Last Trump

            Uh huh. Thaaaat’s right.
            Pass the chips?

          • MisterPine

            Yes, I agree with Paul. You are CLEARLY lying – link please.

          • The Last Trump

            Of course you agree. You have a LOT in common.
            Google search you lazy troll. And turn the tv ON you dolt!? Duh!
            Yeah, I’ll be right over to turn that on for you too.
            And then I’ll feed you?! Shameful.
            Who was your last slave?

          • MisterPine

            THANK YOU.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            LOL no not really. I speak for me a male and a male doing that is a
            gross thought. But we do make love with our wifes. That’s because we
            are human’s and live in a natural way.

          • Paul Hiett

            But you do understand that that activity is something many people do, Christians included?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            How would you know what Christians do if you’re not a Christian. The point is that God sanctioned a man and a woman, but I don’t see many of us as Christians patting each other on the back’s because of what happened in the bedroom.

          • Paul Hiett

            in 2007, 40% of men in America admitted to engaging in sodomy with. That was 8 years ago. Do you think that number has gone down? Do you think Christians aren’t a part of that number?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I posted a reply but not allowing it so I’ll give you the link.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m not sure what the point of that is?

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            That Sod…… is a crime in a number of countries, based on unnatural or immoral acts. Also it defines what Sod… is. The point is you gave a percentage, then applied it to Christians, but you didn’t define exactly what your thought is on Sod…. It means more than one thing.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            Key to the law is the courts understanding: Unnatural or immoral. When looking at the world, it’s a big no no, even penalized by death.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, many third world theocracies kill homosexuals for engaging in sodomy. Injust laws are still injust, regardless of what countries maintain them.

            Slavery was legal around the world for a time. Interracial marriage was illegal here until 1967. Just because something isn’t legal doesn’t mean it should be.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            If your speaking of discrimination, that would make some sense. However, many religions consider that to be unnatural and immoral. Even in their governments. The LGBT groups are lucky to live in America. If they think they are being discriminated here, they should recognize what happens under the same circumstances to those like them in other countries. I think if they considered what other countries think about it, this would be an issue that would stop being an issue. They get what they want so what’s the rub. As long as they live in the U.S.

          • Paul Hiett

            See, that’s the issue. People shouldn’t lay down their rights, or freedom, just because other countries are different. They stone adulterers in other countries…should we bring that custom here because they have it elsewhere? I would hope not.

            The US was a model for the rest of the world to look up to, not the other way around. We really should be continuing that tradition of treating each other…of treating everyone…with love and compassion. We call this “equality”, and it should not apply only to one group of people. It should apply to everyone.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I agree, treating people with love and compassion is the message of Christ. As for equality in the United States. I see that as an impossibility the way things are going right now and here is why: Most things argued in the name of equality makes someone else less equal. If we all were equal, then there would be no homeless, no rich 1%, no children without coats or food to eat. Right here in the richest country in the world, we are all hot and bothered over the rights of the LGBT. Really???? How about we all pitch in with the same fever pitch to save the 60,000 people in New York on the streets, and in other states, when all is totaled, is in the millions. Yet, here we are arguing about the right to marry someone that is the same gender. I’ll tell you what Paul, when you can tell me how I can feed millions of U.S. citizens and give them roofs over their heads, I’ll support your concept of equality. Until then, this issue is moot compared to the issue of homelessness. I know because I experienced it. That is where my heart is. The homeless need a voice too. They need new legislation of equality also. They need resources available to them and not be turned away from a place that serves food.

          • Paul Hiett

            One is not the other. Same-sex marriage has nothing to do with feeding the hungry, or ensuring they have a roof over their heads. We, as a whole, should be working on that together, but instead, Christians have taken up this fight on their own.

            Think of all the money that churches and politicians have spent fighting marriage equality. Why? Why fight so hard against something that has no affect on you at all?

            I really don’t think it should take coming up with a way to feed the hungry for someone to support treating other human beings as equals.

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            I’m speaking about the relevance. You would not have the ability to understand how unequal the homeless are treated. Compared to them the LGBT is treated like gold. It will take coming up with a way to treat the homeless as equals, even as equals to the LGBT. I can’t cry to much for them. They have it easy in comparison. I cry for the people in the United States that are treated like dogs, and worse, aren’t even acknowledged. Yes guess who it is that helps them. The Churches. Certainly not the man with money in his pocket and a home, etc. They wouldn’t stop to give out a quarter. If you don’t understand real equality, how can you argue for equality???

          • The Last Trump

            “Why fight so hard against something that has no affect on you at all?”
            Save it. We fell for that load of crap before. Never again.
            Can’t even read the Christian News without militant, hateful and intolerant LGBT pushing atheists swarming the website to tell Christians how evil and hateful they all are, DAILY. Your own irrational and inappropriate behaviour refutes your ridiculous statement.
            So…see you again tomorrow then? Right.
            No affect on us at all. Yeah. Take your hateful and intolerant agenda elsewhere. It’s clearly not working here, bub. It’s folks like you who made protective legislation like the ones in these articles necessary. Keep pushing. People are beginning to wake up.
            No wonder you’re here every day pissing your pants with worry that the Christians are changing the laws BACK. Keep an eye on us, eh scaredy pants?

          • MisterPine

            Right, and of course you lovely tolerant Christians never tell the LGBT crowd that they’re wicked hell bound sinners, bash them about their nonexistent “agenda” and beat them over the heads with your Bibles. Oh no. It’s those darn pesky homosexuals showing up and trying to deny you your marriages. Oh, wait…

          • The Last Trump

            Exactly. Christians actually have class. They don’t SEEK out homosexuals and bash them about their lifestyles. They don’t go into homosexual bakeries and demand cakes that say “Marriage is for one man and one woman”. They don’t harass homosexual florists over their beliefs. And they sure as hell don’t stalk homosexuals on homosexual forums to tell them all how bad they are?! What kind of a hateful m0ron would act like THAT!
            Oops. Sorry. Forgot who I was talking to.

          • MisterPine

            Evidently you did not read Nick’s “homo fascist” comments then and you have conveniently forgotten your own lovely “perverts and sodomites” comment, no, nothing gay-bashing in THOSE statements.

            If I was gay and went into a bakery it would not even occur to ask them if they have a problem with homosexuals because it doesn’t matter to the baker either way. It has NO effect on his life. So to suggest anyone was being baited is more of your paranoid schizophrenic delusion. Treat all people equally – aren’t all people sinners in your eyes? Then why cherry pick the ones you find ickiest? For one thing (as people are finding out the hard way) it’s illegal. For another, it’s about the most un-Christian behavior I can think of.

          • The Last Trump

            Try harder, intolerant one.
            Still a Christian. 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            “The US was a model for the rest of the world to look up to”
            Sadly, no more. Now the world laughs at America’s moral freefall and decline. What another amazing coincidence that with the rise of gay “rights” the fall of a once great traditional marriage nation ensued. Strange….

          • The Last Trump

            Strange how so many countries are against it, eh?
            And non-Christian religions! Common ground among religions.
            Weird…

          • Oboehner

            And it’s being trumped by a sexual perversion choice.

          • Covered California

            In businesses open to the public, no. Your “feelings” dont matter. Sorry.

          • Oboehner

            Neither do theirs.

          • SpeakTruth

            Divorce rates were low because women didn’t have a means to leave. Teen pregnancy was common, they just married or were sent away for awhile. Crime is up, because of our “war on drugs” and ignorant sentencing guidelines.
            The younger generation is more environmentally and socially conscientious. They are more tolerant.

          • MisterPine

            You’ll have to excuse Oboehner. He believes evolution is a religion after all.

          • Oboehner

            Women didn’t have a reason to leave, teen pregnancy was NOT as rampant, violent crimes are up, the younger generation only thinks it’s more environmentally and socially conscientious. Tolerance = lack of principle.

          • SpeakTruth

            Now, I know you must be kidding. Women didn’t have reason to leave? They had the same reasons to leave then as women do now, sir, they just didn’t have the means or support to do it.
            The teen pregnancy rate is the lowest it has been in the last 40 years. It has been generally on a long term decline since the late 1950’s. These figures are per the CDC.
            The violent crime rate peaked in the early 90’s, but has been on a steady decline since. The violent crime rate for 2013 was the lowest it has been since 1971. This data can be confirmed on the FBI website, Disastercenter.com, wiki, and every other site that came up from my search.
            Young people today do not lack principles, sir. Theirs are just different from yours.

          • MisterPine

            I think you will find that Oboehner is impervious to facts.

          • Oboehner

            The cases of women having to leave were far less.
            Infanticide is a large factor in the teen pregnancy numbers, with out it the numbers would be way up, which brings out another point – dead babies.
            The small town in which I reside as well as the surrounding communities, murder was unheard or even 10 years ago – now we’ve had several. Our prisons are overflowing with violent offenders, yet the rate has gone down?
            School shootings? No lack of principles there.

          • SpeakTruth

            Why would you think there were less cases of women having to leave? I would argue there were more, because men knew their wives didn’t have a choice. Additionally, is isn’t just about “having” to leave; women were unhappy in their marriage and wanted to leave for the same reasons they do now. (For instance, husband cheating, gambling, drinking, wife just didn’t love him anymore, husband won’t hold steady job, etc.)
            Abortion has nothing to do with the teen pregnancy rate, sir. A teen pregnancy is defined as a pregnancy occurring in a girl when, at the end of the pregnancy she is under the age of 20. So, regardless of how the pregnancy ends, IF it ends before she is 20, it is considered a teen pregnancy. IF a teenage girl that had an abortion WAS NOT counted as a teen pregnancy, the teenage pregnancy rate would be much, much lower. It is very easy to research facts these days!
            Your personal anecdotes does not negate the facts, sir. Our prisons are, indeed, overflowing, but it isn’t because of violent offenders. It is non-violent offenders that are crowding the prisons because of the draconian drug laws and sentencing guidelines.
            School shootings are terrible and heartbreaking. FYI- the deadliest school massacre in the US happened in 1927 with 45 victims. A school board member in Michigan planted a bomb.
            Again, information is right at your fingertips. Young people today do not accept as fact everything that older people tell them. They actually research and verify the information. That way, they know when an older person is either lying to them or making stuff up as he goes along.

          • Oboehner

            “I would argue there were more” Knock yourself out, you have nothing to back it up. Your personal anecdotes do not negate the facts, sir.

            Teen pregnancies not reported are also teen pregnancies, in an era which parents do not have to be notified of a minor female getting an abortion you expect me to believe the current statistics are anywhere near accurate? Can you say morning after pill? Do you think teenage sexual activity has dropped? STDs are rampant.

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/24/violent-crime-rising-in-united-states/3180309/

            They may actually research and verify the information, but their sources are lacking – Wikipedia.

          • MisterPine

            Betcha think Jim Crow laws and slavery were just peachy, too. And no gays existed at all.

          • Oboehner

            The founding fathers wished to end slavery, do a little research before you post.

          • MisterPine

            You fail. Here’s some research. Slaves were owned by Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, Tyler, Polk, Taylor and others.

          • Oboehner

            Spouting the usual crap, too lazy to research?

            “I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].” – George Washington

            “Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers’ ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists.” – African-American professor Walter Williams

          • SpeakTruth

            They are much more educated and have grown up with information at their fingertips, so, they can easily tell when they are being lied to.

          • The Last Trump

            Guess we’ll have to change the expression then, huh?
            Gee, I dunno. The younger the wiser, eh?
            Don’t think its going to fly. People aren’t quite that dumb enough.

          • SpeakTruth

            Older people have much to offer young people. Their advice and direction is often helpful and appreciated. However, in previous generations young people had to rely on the information adults chose to give them. That is no longer the case. If an adult tells them something illogical, they can quickly verify the information. They can easily get multiple viewpoints on every subject. They can communicate easily with people in other countries and of other religions or of no religion. They can view lectures from experts in every field of study.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, older people tend to be wiser, while the younger folk tend to be more educated. It’s simply a fact of life. There’s more information available to us…and more that needs to be learned. This is the way it’s always been…educational evolution, if you will.

            Or, do you think our schools today are teaching the exact same thing they did 40 years ago?

          • The Last Trump

            Heavens, no! Today they teach our children to be drug/alcohol/sex addicts. They teach open pornography in some of the finest ivy league schools in the country and in kindergarten classes. They teach our kids NOT to be patriotic or to believe in God or even to give thanks for that matter. They are taught “life boat” ethics (you know, who do I kill to save ME) and abortion. And today we have a generation of debauchery and depravity. If it feels good, do it. No morality, no virtue, no dignity, and no shame.

            No, no, no! They certainly do NOT teach our children what they did 40 years ago. When America was still great. 🙁

          • Paul Hiett

            Sounds like you need to send your kids to better schools. Amazingly enough, there are plenty of public schools out there that won’t teach those things they are apparently doing in your private, Christians schools.

          • The Last Trump

            I agree. Our kids deserve better schools.
            Guess they’ll have to leave the country to find them or homeschool.

          • Paul Hiett

            Woohoo!!!!!! Don’t let the door hit your butt on the way out!

        • Oboehner

          Brainwashed is the word here, brainwashed.

          • SpeakTruth

            Quite the contrary. They are bucking the status quo. They question authority. They are social activists. They have grown up with access to information at their fingertips, so they are not easily swayed by ignorant adults.

          • Oboehner

            All based on their brainwashing.

          • MisterPine

            Are you quite certain that isn’t just your bigotry talking?

          • roald

            How about a person from the time s/he was a few weeks old and on well into adulthood is force-fed fact-free information daily, told what to believe and how to think by his/her parents and peers and other thought leaders, threatened with eternal suffering for the slightest mistake unless forgiveness is offered by a small set of thought leaders. Would that be brainwashing?

          • Oboehner

            Teaching them under the guise of “education” that they somehow “evolved” from a rock 4.6 billion years ago with no proof what so ever and calling it science is brainwashing. That’s just one topic out of many.

          • roald

            I have led a sheltered life, surrounded by intelligent people, many religious, yet still able to tell the difference between faith and observation.

            I know that nothing will change your mind, but just in case someone with an open mind reads this…
            http://evolutionfaq.com/articles/five-proofs-evolution

            http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence

          • Oboehner

            1. The universal genetic code. Proof that God created everything to work together in the same environment.
            I don’t do websites, or long cut and paste jobs – if you wish to discuss, keep it to one topic at a time in your own words. I do not have the time to wade through piles of BS that I’ve heard all before.

          • roald

            The genetic code to which you refer is terrestrial. It is not proof that anything was created for any reason. It does, however demonstrate that all life on this planet came from the same precursors.

            I prefer sources that have specialized knowledge over personal opinions.

          • Oboehner

            The genetic code to which you refer is terrestrial. It is not proof that anything was came from the same precursors for any reason. It does, however demonstrate that all life on this planet came from the same creator.
            I prefer sources that aren’t religious in nature like the two you posted, including the one that stated the genetic code IS proof.

          • roald

            It does not demonstrate the need for a creator, just energy and time. The ID myth is based on our current knowledge. Go back a thousand years and things that can be easily explained now were attributed to supernatural forces. Over time, we will learn more and more myths will be debunked.

            What makes you think the links I provided are religious? Any source of information that references a creator would, by definition, be a source you do not like i.e. religious.

          • Oboehner

            Just as “scientific” myths were debunked over time, and just as evolutionism will itself be discarded when its shortcomings become too many to just explain away with flowery language or to cover up.
            Evolutionism is a religion.

          • roald

            Scientific theories change over time as new observations are made that the theory cannot explain. The theory remains valid for the previous set of observations. The modified theory explains both the former and the new observations. That changes are needed is expected. No faith required.

            Scientific hypotheses may be completely discarded when observations are made that prove them wrong. No faith required.

            Creationism does not use observations. It is not subject to modification or elimination when new knowledge is obtained.Faith is mandatory.

            See the difference?

          • Oboehner

            Then Billions of years was observed? You have a photo of the “common ancestor”? Faith is mandatory.

          • roald

            No concurrent observation is necessary. Theory ties what we can observe together. The theories are fundamentally correct and most certainly wrong in some detail. Further observation will lead to a better theory. No faith needed.

            Creationism is based on nothing but faith.

          • Oboehner

            What we see is stretched to fit your faith: billions of years – nothing but faith, common ancestor – nothing but faith, speciation – nothing but faith.

          • roald

            Psalm 115:5

            You choose to refuse to accept evidence and try to equate that lack of evidence with the absolute and utter faith that is needed to accept creationism. Even the Vatican accepts evolution.

            http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/09/19/vatican-official-defends-evolution-against-useless-creationism/

          • Oboehner

            The vatican is just as useless as evolutionism. The sad thing with evolutionism is it takes evidence that could point to a number of things and shoves it in its own little box, real science never ignores possibilities – only a religion does that.

          • roald

            What is that evidence and what else could it point to? Real science discounts possibilities when they do not support the observations.

          • Oboehner

            It’s not real science then. Your version discounts possibilities that don’t conform to your already pre-conceived belief system (or religion).

          • roald

            You have not answered my question. I have found that to be an indicator of bluffing.

            In real science, when someone has an idea, they create a hypothesis and then figure out how to test that hypothesis. If the hypothesis fits the observations, it becomes a theory. If not the hypothesis is discarded or refined. If new observations are made that do not fit the theory, a new hypothesis is developed and the cycle starts again.

          • Oboehner

            Genetic commonalities could indicate a common designer yet it is paraded around as only evidence of evolutionism and the “common ancestor”. One example.

          • roald

            Good. You have a hypothesis. Collect some data and show that the hypothesis does a better job of explaining all of the observations.

          • Oboehner

            Done, and it doesn’t include evolutionism.

          • roald

            Science calls for peer reviews. Where is your evidence. Talk is cheap and questions are not evidence.

          • Oboehner

            peer reviews are nothing more than popular opinion. Yes talk is cheap, that’s all evolutionists have, assumption talk, speculation talk, religious talk, etc.

          • roald

            Ducking the question I see. That tells me everything I need to know.

          • Oboehner

            Claims of “ducking some question”. That tells me everything I need to know.

          • roald

            It should show you that I cannot be fooled by misdirection. Enjoy your ignorance.

          • Oboehner

            Enjoy your ignorant religion.

          • Oboehner

            Here’s some evidence: commonalities in genetics, life was created that way in order to occupy the same earth and live together by a common designer. Adaptations, created that way to better live on the earth.

          • roald

            Commonalities are the result of coming from a common starting point, no need for a creator.

          • Oboehner

            Religious belief, you have no proof commonalities are not from a common creator.

          • roald

            Think what you will, there is evidence of evolution. There is nothing to support Intelligent Design beyond the hypothesis. That is why ID is taught in church, not science class.

            I hope Cheonjiwang Bonpuri has mercy on your soul.

          • Oboehner

            Think what you will, there is no exclusive evidence of evolution, there is just as much to support Intelligent Design. It’s really to bad the evolutionism religion is taught as fact in government schools, we need truth not brainwashing.

        • thoughtsfromflorida
        • LIFE – A Gift Divine

          I’m educated lol

        • thoughtsfromflorida
      • Peter Leh

        “Yes it’s usually the younger, more easily influenced who falls for such.”
        that is what our grandparents said of our generation, and the generation said of theirs, and so on and so on….. 🙂

        • The Last Trump

          Peter, I hope you’re not thinking that I’m ignoring you.
          I’ve just been waiting for you to say something intelligent that would be worthy of response. Anything. Anything at all.
          I’ll keep waiting 🙂

          • Paul Hiett

            Pot, meet kettle.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Have you ever had an original thought, Mr. Hiett?

          • The Last Trump

            Just the decision to endlessly troll Christian websites.
            Then nothing after that it would seem 🙁

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes Nick, I have…when I threw off the shackles of ignorance (you call it religion) and learned how to think on my own.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, those shackles must have hit you in the head and caused brain damage, Mr. Hiett.

          • The Last Trump

            I think you mean, “Paul” meet kettle.
            🙂

          • Peter Leh

            i knew would not let me down. 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            Wish I could say the same, brother. 🙁

          • Peter Leh

            “i apologize again for all my shortcomings” 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            You are forgiven.
            Christianity does that. 🙂

  • Noreen L

    I won’t be shopping Walmart anymore…and hopefully neither will many others.

    • weasel1886

      So you won’t use the internet either?

      • Peter Leh

        sometimes we cherry pick the scriptures. other times we cherry pick who to boycott. many times we are not serious about either. 🙂

    • Paul Hiett

      Yeah, that’ll happen.

  • uzza

    Just explain one thing. The bible and Ten Commandments forbid false swearing: should a christian contract with the State to operate a business serving the general public, with no intention of serving the general public, have they not broken the Commandment?

    Or, if they advertise a service to the public and then refuse to provide that service, haven’t they broken the 9th commandment, “thou shalt not bear false witness”?

    • John_33

      They never advertised that they would serve gay marriages; therefore, they are not breaking their word when they politely refuse to service gay weddings.

      • uzza

        They DID advertise that they would serve gay people, by offering their services to the general public. You might as well say they didn’t advertise to serve blondes. The ‘general public’ includes blondes, blacks, atheists, gays, Muslims and everyone else. Even if they don’t advertise at all they signed a contract and did not fulfill the terms of the contract.

        • John_33

          They do serve gays. They only refuse to serve gay marriages. Are business owners forced to serve KKK functions? No, business owners are not required to serve KKK functions even though KKK members make up the general public. Your argument doesn’t make sense. You are trying too hard.

  • thoughtsfromflorida

    Wise move on the part of the Governor.

    • Paul Hiett

      What gets me is that they act all surprised that people are more willing to stand up in the face of bigotry, hatred, and intolerance these days.

  • jjhot254 .

    just because you do something that “feels” right, it does not make it “good” or true.
    when we all think deeply about it, homosexuality, is and always be wrong as well, no matter how deeply you FEEL it is right for you. It slavery to your feeling!!

    • Paul Hiett

      And no matter how you FEEL it’s wrong, it does no harm to anyone.

      • jjhot254 .

        much harm is done to the person and those around them, its like gene for alcoholism, we don’t tell alcoholics, oh well, you’re born with it so just drink

      • jjhot254 .

        so your morality is from how it feels as long as it harm no one? how do you know the harm is not being done, you seem to know about everything,

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    Shame on Hutchinson and Pence for not standing up for the rights of Christian business owners. Two more cowardly RINOs who won’t receive my support any longer.
    On a brighter note, the homo-fascists, who have savagely attacked the Indiana pizza shop owners who said, hypothetically, that they wouldn’t cater an SS counterfeit “wedding,” have inadvertently gave them a cash windfall of over $100,000!! (As of this morning.)
    Thanks to talk-show host Dana Loesch, who set up a GoFundMe account for them.

    “SS” seems so apropos, now, in light of these tyrannical and despotic attempts to force people to violate their consciences along with their rights to contract, freely associate, and exercise their religion.

    • Paul Hiett

      Ah yes, the old “you must abide by our Bible or we’ll claim we’re being persecuted!!” defense.

      How’s that working out for ya?

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        It’s working out great for that pizza shop, thanks to your homo-fascist buddies, Mr. Hiett. They’ve sold over $100,000 in virtual pizzas. That’s pure profit! Thank you, homo-fascists.
        Where did I say that “you must abide by” my Bible, by the way? Refusing to provide a service to a SS counterfeit “marriage” is not forcing you to believe…anything. That’s called a non sequitur, in case you’d like to look it up.

        • Paul Hiett

          “Homo-fascist”, eh? So insults are a part of the Christian way of life?

          You must be so proud of yourself.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Can you think of a better descriptor, Mr. Hiett?
            Your support of forcing people to do business with whom they do not wish, has shown that you are for tyranny and despotism and I am for freedom.
            Explain to me, again, why refusal to provide a service/product forces you, in any way, to believe in the Bible? How does that work, in the lobotomized, liberal mind?

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you often find yourself labeling others who disagree with your position with derogatory words? Does it empower you to insult others?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            My intent is not to insult anyone, Mr. Hiett. As a Catholic, I love everyone, as Christ commanded. Especially, on Holy Thursday.
            All I’ve done is to combine “pro-homosexual rights” with “fascist” in order to remain pithy.
            You keep deflecting from my question. Why can’t you answer it?

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh of course not…I’m sure anyone in your family would agree that calling someone a “homo-fascist” is a term of endearment. In fact, I’m sure everyone on this board would agree it’s not really an insult.

            Nope, just another run of mill description you hear every day in casual conversation.

            Do you actually believe the tripe you write?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Another attempt to deflect answering my rather simple question. You’re not good at the whole “debating” thing, are you, Mr. Hiett?

        • LIFE – A Gift Divine

          Nick I know things get heated. May I please suggest (and the reason I am suggesting is because I get the same way and then must adjust, we surely are not perfect) relaxing a bit lol. I’m certain that with you and Paul going at it every day now for a while, it might be time for a truce. Your both good people, but that ole ego continues to push and push on us until we start blasting away. I’m as bad as it as anyone. I feel though that your much more loving than your letting on here. Put that love of Christ back in there where is belongs, in our hearts, minds, and souls. You will do great things. This message is in no way trying to be cruel. It’s out of being a Christian brother that respects you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Thanks, LIFE, for the admonition. But, trust me, I’m not angry or getting heated. I’m simply standing up for the Constitution and basic, God-given rights. Christ commands that we stand up for the Truth.
            I don’t know if Mr. Hiett is a good person, or not. But, that’s irrelevant to this argument. I know that he’s an atheist who really hasn’t thought these subjects through, and gets upset when proven wrong. He can only regurgitate the arguments of other hack atheists, like Dawkins and Harris.
            As snarky as I get (and I admit that I have written things I wish that I could take back), I never get nasty, or, curse at people. I always try to be polite and give the same respect as I receive.
            Again, thank you for the reminder. It’s a reminder I can never receive enough! God Bless!

          • LIFE – A Gift Divine

            God bless you too buddy. Have a great day!

    • Parque_Hundido

      Comments like yours only underscore the true intent of this law: to persecute LGBT people. You have a long history of persecuting those with whom you do not agree. Those days appear to be over.

      It’s a good day for equality when people like you are upset. I delight in your grief.

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Poor, Parque, still stalking me, huh? I really am living rent-free inside your head. Please, find a new hobby, okay?
        By the way, were you one of those “tolerant” people who threatened to burn down that Indiana pizza shop?

        • Parque_Hundido

          I love how your narcissism works: any comment made at you has to be an effort at “stalking”.

          In fact, you insist on sharing grossly misinformed ideas wherever you can. You can’t remark when one of your intellectual betters points out the error of your ways.

          I presumed you were the arsonist. You and your people have a long history of burning protestants at the stake, it seems like a very small stretch to see you burning them at their place of work. Have you moved on from defending child molesters and Nazis yet?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I truly pity you, Parque. What a sad life you must live.
            I have never, and will never, defend child molesters or [email protected] As I’ve repeatedly told you.
            You still must be thinking of the savage Aztec and Inca empires, who engaged in child sacrifice and cannibalism. Thank goodness the Catholic, Spanish explorers brought Christianity to these continents, eh?

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh, I’m sure the Aztecs and Incas were thrilled at the Inquisition that they brought with them as well, not to mention the diseases that wiped them out.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Another example your ignorance of basic history, Mr. Hiett.
            The Inquisition wasn’t brought to the New World. And, they really didn’t know about germs and immunology in the 16th Century.
            Don’t you ever get tired of repeating bogus, debunked cliches?

          • Paul Hiett

            Did you really just say that the Inquisition was not brought to the new world? Really? ROFLMAO…oh this is great, even better than your failure in understanding the roots of Christmas and Easter.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_Inquisition
            http://sefarad.org/lm/037/6.html

            I can go on providing more links, but this should establish the fact that you have no clue what you’re talking about.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, as a wiki scholar, I’m sure that you could provide more “examples,” Mr. Hiett. Even the BBC debunked the myth of the Spanish Inquisition, over 20 years ago!
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY-pS6iLFuc

          • Paul Hiett

            So you dismiss the actual information in the three links I gave you, one of which was not Wiki, but you still choose to ignore it. Then you post a video which you yourself have not seen, but decided to post it anyways.

            I’ll give you more links to prove you wrong…again.

            http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/vatican_holyinquisition02.htm
            http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic874021.files/sesssions.pdf
            http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=213

            Three more…I can easily post another three after those, and three more after that, but the fact is, you have no clue what you’re talking about.

            Walk up to any history professor and tell him that the Inquisition wasn’t brought to the new world. You’re absolutely hilarious!!!!!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’ve watched the BBC show, twice, actually.
            You must be familiar with it, since you don’t want to deal with it.

          • Paul Hiett

            6 links I have provided that prove you wrong.

            Just like the Christmas and Easter arguments you lost, you lost this one too simply because the facts prove you wrong.

            What’s even better, is that I don’t really need to say anything, just post the facts for you and let them speak for themselves.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You completely lost the Christmas/Easter debate. Others even said so, remember?
            And, from that experience, I know that you don’t even read your own links. So, why should I? You even posted links that proved your bogus assertions were wrong, then ignored them.
            So….yeah.

            Try, for the umpteenth time, answering my very simple question: why a refusal to provide a service/product forces you, in any way, to believe in the Bible?

          • Paul Hiett

            Why do you have such a hard admitting when you’re wrong?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I don’t, Mr. Hiett. That would be you. Pot calling kettle.
            Why do you have such a hard time answering very simple questions.
            How about why Catholic, and other religious, private schools can only hire those of their religion to work at said schools? You never did answer that one, when I was educating you on the freedom to contract, associate, and exercise of religion, remember?

          • Paul Hiett

            In regards to your claim that the Inquisition did not reach the shores of the “new world”, what do those links I provided you with prove?

            Can you answer with honesty? Do you have the humility and character to not lie or evade the question?

          • Paul Hiett

            Your problem is that you don’t when freedom of association is applied, and when it is not. A private school that receives no federal funding CAN discriminate. A private business that sells goods/services to the public can NOT discriminate.

            Now do you understand the difference?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            “A private school that receives no federal funding CAN discriminate. A private business that sells goods/services to the public can NOT discriminate.”

            Based on what? Why can the private school discriminate? That was the question. That’s just a re-wording your continued, bogus assertion, not an argument.

            Do you understand the difference?

          • Paul Hiett

            I absolutely understand the difference, you clearly do not. A private religious school that gets no funding from the government can discriminate in who attends, and whom they hire and fire.

            Now, do you understand why a private business cannot discriminate based on gender, race, religion, and in some places, sexual orientation?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Umm…Nooooo.
            A private business also receives no funding from the government.
            So….yeah.
            I don’t think you understand the meaning of the word understand.

          • Paul Hiett

            A private business that sells to the public cannot discriminate.

            What part of that are you having an issue with?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Umm…the why? Haven’t you been paying attention?
            Just because you keep typing it, doesn’t make it so.
            Selling to the public is not receiving funding from the government.
            Again, Mr. Hiett, this debate thing is not your forte, is it?

          • Paul Hiett

            Apparently logic and reason aren’t yours.

            Do you really not understand why a private business is not allowed to discriminate? After all, it’s spelled out pretty clearly in the CRA of 64. Not all that hard to find on the web either.

            You can also learn why a private, religious school CAN discriminate, assuming it receives no funding from the government.

            It’s amazing what’s out there, Nick…all you have to do is actually read it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            How is the CRA of 1964 going to tell me why private schools can discriminate, but, private businesses cannot?
            Laws state what is allowed and/or what is prohibited. Not why.

            Besides, I’m asking you, Mr. Hiett, why it’s okay for private schools to discriminate, and private businesses can’t? If discrimination is sooooo bad and icky, why do laws allow it to happen?
            All of your attempts to explain this have failed, so far.

          • Paul Hiett

            Maybe you should try reading up on why?

            I’ve tried explaining it to you, but you refuse to accept the truth.

            Regardless, whether you like it or not, that’s the way it is. A business that sells to the public may not discriminate.

            A private school that receives no funding from the government may discriminate.

            As to the particulars, the lettering of the laws, I don’t know precisely what the qualifications are in regards to the schools…I could probably go find the websites and link them, but so could you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m still waiting for answers to my two very simple questions, Mr. Hiett.
            Why does refusing to provide a service/product force you, in any way, to believe in the Bible?
            And, why is it okay for private schools to discriminate, and private businesses can’t?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Poor, poor, desperately ill Nick. You’re in the advanced phases of your narcissistic personality disorder.

            No, I definitely thought of you -preparing to celebrate your re-enactment of human sacrifice. Will you be burning people at the stake as well?

            If you take your meds, maybe you can take a history course. Though I guess you’d still be in prison.

            I delight in the way Indiana and Arkansas are back tracking. You must believe this is the result of some evil spell cast by savages. LOL. Childish superstitions are funny!

        • Paul Hiett

          Those people who threatened to burn down a store are not representatives of the majority of people who disagree with the way the Christians are treating the LGBT community.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, they are.

          • Paul Hiett

            So all Christians want to kill homosexuals just because you and a few others do?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Another, of your many, straw men, Mr. Hiett.
            I don’t want to kill homosexuals. As I’ve repeatedly told you, I’m a Catholic, and love everyone, since they are made in the image and likeness of God. As Christ commanded.
            So…yeah.

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh, terribly sorry…since you were making generalized straw men arguments, I though we all could.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            A straw man argument has nothing to do with making generalizations, Mr. Hiett.
            What you did was make an unsubstantiated claim (e.g., “Those people…are not representative….”) based on no data, whatsoever. And, I answered you with, likewise, with an unsubstantiated assertion.
            Please, get your terms right, okay?

          • Paul Hiett

            How many people threatened to burn down the store? Seems like 1.

            So, you then make a generalized, sweeping statement regarding the mindset of everyone either in the LGBT community or who supports them, and claim you didn’t. Cute.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, you admit that you don’t know what a “straw man” argument is? Good.
            I didn’t generalize, Mr. Hiett. I asked Parque if he was one of those “tolerant” fascists who threatened the pizza shop owners. I made no allusion to how many there were, nor, did I imply that every opponent of the Indiana RFRA made threats. Again, this debating thing is not your forte.

          • Paul Hiett

            Nick_from_Detroit

            an hour ago
            Yes, they are.

            This quote alone proves you wrong. Not that you have the intellectual capacity to understand though. No doubt you’ll come back with some predicted “you don’t know what a strawman is, I didn’t make general statements, I don’t insult anyone, blah blah blah.”

            Hear it all before from you. You already admitted that you lumped in everyone with the one person who made the threat.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            “This quote alone proves you wrong.”
            No, it does not, Mr. Hiett. As I’ve already explained, that was my unsubstantiated reply to your unsubstantiated claim.
            If you had made a substantiated claim, I would have dealt with that. Do you know what substantiated means?

          • Parque_Hundido

            And I replied that given your people’s history of burning Protestants at the stake, you wer likely the culprit.

          • Parque_Hundido

            They also do not exist. They made it up to get money from gullible Fox viewers.

  • Parque_Hundido

    This is a good sign. In effect, any state that passes a “license to discriminate” law will be the subject of boycotts, shaming and general reprobation.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists has received OVER $200,000, so far!!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!
    http://www.gofundme.com/memoriespizza

    • MisterPine

      (crickets)

      • Nick_from_Detroit

        Don’t you mean roaches, Mr. Pine? As in, scurrying like roaches when the light is turned on them?
        Or, do you defend these attacks? Like the one about burning the pizza place down?

        • Paul Hiett

          Nick, seriously, get off of your high horse about the threat to the store. One person making a threat is not representative of everyone who supports equality for all human beings.

          It would be like lumping all Christians in with Scott Roeder.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Hiett, since I had to look up who that murderer was, it’s safe to say that he does not represent Christians, at all.
            According to your favorite source, wiki, he was more of an anti-govt., anti-tax militia-type. Who are very small percentage of what constitutes the “right” in this country.
            On the hand, those making threats against Memories Pizza are indicative of the radical leftwingers in this country, e.g., OWS, Ferguson protesters, International Answer, etc.
            Next.

          • Paul Hiett

            My god, you missed the point entirely.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You weren’t claiming that your side never takes one flake/extremist and makes him the poster-boy for all Christians, Mr. Hiett?
            What, pray tell, was your point, then?
            p.s. Would you like to all of the hateful comments addressed to those poor pizza shop owners?

        • MisterPine

          What I meant was your post which was obviously a rally cry for your fellow Christian supremacists, faith-based haters and bigots fell completely flat, and I wanted you to have that fact made very plain.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            You failed, Mr. Pine. Get new writers, okay?

          • MisterPine

            Anything you say, Mr. Homo-Fascists.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, your problem is not with my arguments, but, with how I express them, Mr. Pine? Good luck with that.

          • MisterPine

            You consider “homo-fascists” to be an “expression”, Nick from Detroit? You do not see it as a hate-filled, derogatory and disgusting thing to call another person? Are you quite certain you are a Christian, because no Christians I know talk that way.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Mr. Pine, it’s pithy way to say “pro-special homosexual rights” and “fascist,” that’s all.
            If you want to see hate-filled, derogatory, and disgusting things, check out all of the luv coming from your pals, the oh-so tolerant left [***LANGUAGE WARNING***]:
            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/02/1375103/-Republican-senator-Gay-Americans-are-fortunate-because-In-Iran-they-hang-you-for-being-gay

            p.s. You must not know many Christians, eh?

          • MisterPine

            It is just amazing watching the actions of some of you, so hateful and judgemental, doing the very thing Jesus told you not to do – judging, and rather than apologize for it, you become prideful and arrogant about it. More than that, your words show the sheer and utter delight you take in your cruel and hateful words. Do you know why that is, Nick from Detroit? If I practiced a faith and saw someone I felt was in error or need of correction, I don’t think I would be mocking or belittling then as you do. And so I must ask again, are you certain you are a Christian, Nick from Detroit?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, since I’ve already interacted with you, previously, I know that you’re not sincere. And, Christ said, “Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you.” Which is very good advice.
            As I’ve repeatedly written, in this thread, I love everyone. Even you. As a Catholic, I believe that I’m supposed to love every person, since they are made in the image and likeness of God. Whom have I judged, by the way?
            I love my enemies and neighbors, just as Christ commanded. You see hate in my remarks, Mr. Pine, because you’re projecting.

          • MisterPine

            I’m sorry, Nick from Detroit, I don’t believe you are a Christian at all. You take far too much glee and pleasure from donations being made to a pizza restaurant who are notorious only for their snubbing and hate of homosexuals, and calling your detractors homo-fascists is cruel and uncharitable in the extreme. I see hate in your remarks precisely because there is.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Nick is one of the best friends gay people ever had. Like Fred Phelps, the more he speaks, the less likely it is that heterosexual will want to associate with him.

          • MisterPine

            What frightens me about Nick, Last Trump and Oboehner is they don’t recognize their own hate at all. Not even the slightest bit. They really think in their heart of hearts that they are doing God’s will when they call people perverts, sodomites, homo-fascists, etc, and have the nerve to see themselves as the oppressed rather than the oppressors.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Agreed, they show an astounding lack of self-awareness. But it’s that very quality that is most helpful. When that couple who owned the pizza place went on TV, viewers saw unbridled hate dressed up as religious piety. No one believed for a minute that their intent was anything other than legally and personally insulting gay people.

            I’m sure of this: oboehner and Nick are an embarrassment to their friends and family. How could they not be?

          • MisterPine

            Oh, there is no doubt in my mind. In the case of Oboehner and Trump, I’m sure at some point in their lives they were told that they needed to seek out a “Bible believing church” (read: fundie) and they proceeded to seek out an angry, political, hate-based Fred Phelps-style church with probably 20 people in it, all of whom had been convinced that they alone were God’s Chosen People.

            Nick is slightly more mystifying to me, because in my experience Catholics are nicer and less narrow-minded (and can even be downright reasonable). But even the Catholics have their fundies.

          • Parque_Hundido

            There are fundamentalist Catholics, though they are way out of the mainstream and even they wouldn’t say the things that Nick does (e.g., defending the slaughter of native americans). Nick’s views are in no way Catholic. They’re just hardcore extremist, of the type you’d expect from someone prone to fire bombing online forums. He’s just a garden variety miscreant.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Luckily, Mr. Pine, it doesn’t matter what you believe. Nobody cares.
            I always love it when one of you non-believers tries to tell me what Christ teaches, as if you knew what you were talking about. Like you have a clue as to what the Bible contains and teaches.
            p.s. I haven’t called my detractors homo-fascists. I’m calling those who are attacking and bullying average, everyday Americans, like the owners of Memories Pizza.
            p.p.s. Memories Pizza’s GoFundMe is now over $540,000. Thanks to your oh-so tolerant comrades, Mr. Pine (did you even look at that kos-kids link?).

          • MisterPine

            Something you need to learn over and over it seems, Nick from Detroit, is that you speak for you and you only. So when you say “nobody cares” it’s just wishful thinking on your part. I happen to know there are many people on this forum who share my beliefs.

            I used to be a Catholic, Nick from Detroit. I know what the Bible teaches. And if I may say so, you are not remotely like ANY Catholic I know. You’d be much more at home in a fundie church, you’d have a better time because they hate a lot more.

            Maybe what you’re perceiving as “attacking and bullying” against Memories Pizza wouldn’t be taking place if the Memories Pizza people weren’t discriminating and being hateful jerks. Cause and effect. Don’t like the effect? Then speak up against the cause. Seems pretty simple doesn’t it, Nick from Detroit?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            If you were a Catholic, you most certainly don’t know what the Bible teaches, since the Church, in America and Europe, at least, stop teaching it over a century ago.

            I’m not like any Catholic you know, Mr. Pine? I take that as a compliment, since, you probably only know dissenters, like San Fran Gran Nan Pelosi and Teddy the Swimmer Kennedy.
            I try my best to follow the command of Christ to love my enemies and neighbors. Even when they make it hard. I love homosexuals, as I love all sinners. I’m a terrible sinner, myself. I pray for their suffering.

            If you think the kos-kids’ link was excellent, you’re a perfect example of Isaiah’s words, “Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.” Do you know who Isaiah even was, Mr. Pine?

          • MisterPine

            Yes Nick from Detroit, I know exactly how much you love “homo-fascists”, your updates make it very clear.

            I know the Bible inside-out, and cannot support the writings of human beings who claim to speak on God’s behalf. Especially the ones that ask me to uphold hatred of my fellow human beings. I don’t believe you love the people you claim to when your actions state exactly otherwise, Nick from Detroit.

            I believe the writer of the Los article was angry, and it was a righteous anger directed at hate and bigotry.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            This is really burning you up, isn’t it, Mr. Pine? Good. This is a great response to pro-homosexual bigotry.

            If you know the Bible inside-out, please, tell me how Genesis 1, Noah’s Ark, and the Tabernacle/Temple are related?
            Or, what do the Hebrew terms Al Beit, Todah, Hekesh, Gebirah, Berith, and Shaba mean? Without looking them up, that is?

            How about explaining how important the covenant was to the Jewish understanding of the Bible?

          • MisterPine

            I am not interested in your games, Nick from Detroit. Find another guinea pig. Yes, I think it’s fair to say the faith-based hatred burns me up.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, in other words, Mr. Pine, you don’t know the Bible inside-out. Check.
            Most atheists and ex-Catholics don’t, either. You have a lot of company.

          • MisterPine

            There ARE no “other words,” Nick from Detroit. I’m not playing semantics games with you. This is unrelated to your bigotry which is all I’m willing to discuss.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            So, Mr. Pine, you’re admitting that you don’t know the Bible, as I’ve already stated, I know. No need to beat it to death, okay? I knew your bluster was nothing but claptrap.
            Do you even know how many books are in the Bible? That’s an easy one!

          • MisterPine

            No, Nick from Detroit, I’m admitting no such thing, for the last time I’m not playing your games. It is utterly irrelevant about the quality of Christian I am, or used to be, or later became. The subject is your bigotry towards homosexuals, and I’m not going to be swayed. The number of books in the Bible is not relevant to that discussion.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Later became? I thought you were an atheist?
            If you don’t even know how many books are in the Bible, you’re a lost cause, I’m afraid. How about multiple choice? Which book is not in the Bible? (No fair peeking!)
            a) Esther
            b) Lamentations
            c) Habakkuk
            d) Elijah
            e) Obadiah

          • MisterPine

            73 books including all these, the deuterocanonials, called the apocrypha by Protestants. I later became an atheist after earlier becoming an agnostic after earlier becoming a Catholic. Now tell me why you insist on drawing me into this after me telling your several time I did not wish to.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            No fair, Mr. Pine. I said, “no looking it up,” remember?
            I’m still not convinced, though. What about my other queries? What about Genesis 1, Noah’s Ark, and the Tabernacle/Temple?

          • MisterPine

            Understand who you are dealing with, Nick from Detroit. I am constantly on web forums defending Catholics from the attacks of fundamentalists, mostly because I so dislike the arrogance of being told what I believed when I WAS a Catholic. And I have heard it all, about how I worshipped Mary, how I bowed down to statues, how I worshipped the pope, how infant baptism just gets the baby wet and itching else, and about how Catholics supposedly added books to the Bible. Why do you think I called them the deuteron annual books and not the apocrypha? Because I wanted you to know that I knew the difference. I still have my old Douay-Rheims Bible.

            But as I said, this is not what I came to talk about.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m glad that you’re defending us Catholics, Mr. Pine. We’ve found some common ground. (You are aware that the New Atheists have adopted many of those fundamentalist attacks against Catholics, aren’t you? E.g., Galileo, Inquisition, flat-earth/anti-science, no Catholic Church until Constantine, etc., etc.)

            You’d be more convincing on the Bible if you hadn’t just called them “the deuteron annual books”! After you got it right in your previous post!
            If you could explain those Hebrew words or the relationship between Gen.1, Noah’s Ark, and the Temple; I might change my mind. They’re not so easily found in wiki.

          • MisterPine

            Well, that’s what happens when you respond using an iPhone, it autocorrected “deuterocanonical” the last time.

            I cannot explain those Hewbrew words. But I still consider my Bible knowledge to be pretty good.

            I suppose it’s good there is common ground here but I think your thoughts and beliefs about homosexuals need to come out of the stone age. Then again I think the whole Catholic Church needs to, after all, it can be progressive when it wants to – Ken Miller, for example, is a leading authority on evolution and is a Catholic.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            But I still consider my Bible knowledge to be pretty good.

            And, I guarantee you, if you were raised in the Catholic Church during the past 60 years, pretty much the only exposure to the Sacred Scriptures you got was at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Which is good, don’t get me wrong. But you certainly didn’t get taught our Father’s Plan contained in the Bible. This somehow stopped being taught in catechesis over the past two centuries.
            So, Mr. Pine, you may have read the Bible, but you don’t know the Bible.

            I don’t know Mr. Miller, but, Pope Pius XII allowed for a belief in cosmic and biological evolution back in…1952, I think. A Catholic still must believe that God created out of nothingness, and, that Adam & Eve were our first parents. But, precisely how God created them is still open for discussion. Because the Catholic Church is open-minded. Did you know that the man who came up with the Big Bang Theory was a priest?
            That being said, the Church is NOT going to change Her teaching on homosexuality. Except for the cause of disordered SS attraction, which can’t be proven at this time; the sinfulness of sexual acts outside of marriage has been settled for almost 2,000 years. It’s as unchangeable as the male-only priesthood, I’m afraid.

          • MisterPine

            None of it is really relevant if you’ve come to the conclusion that the Bible was just a book written by human beings. Which is what happened. I didn’t go anti-Catholic or anything, I just realized that I could no longer be a Christian because I didn’t believe anything was divine about any of it. “Knowing the Bible” better wouldn’t change that fact.

            The church’s refusal to look at scientific findings on the subject of homosexuality is the thing that’s going to keep people from it, especially as our knowledge grows on the subject.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Of course the Bible was written by human beings, Mr. Pine. But, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Knowing this, along with our Father’s Plan, would help you, a lot.
            It doesn’t take much scientific knowledge to figure out that a man doesn’t mesh with a man, nor, does a woman mesh with a woman, sexually speaking, that is. Man and woman were made to compliment each other.

          • MisterPine

            You’re speaking to an agnostic, Nick from Detroit, imagine for a moment how your words sound to a man of science when you talk about things like holy spirits. What would stop any person from writing a book and saying it was inspired by God? And I see not one single, solitary reason to believe any different about the Bible.

            Sexually speaking is only one piece of the puzzle. There’s also love, trust, companionship, and all the other things that go into ANY romantic relationship. I’m guessing sexually gay and lesbian couples have had no trouble making it work.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            What makes you a “man of science,” Mr. Pine? I, myself, love science.
            Many Catholics/Christians are scientists. They are not antithetical.
            Guess who came up with the Big Bang Theory? A Catholic priest. Isaac Newton was a very devout Christian, too.
            And, again, it’s not love, it’s lust. And, they are a slave to it.

          • MisterPine

            That is no different, Nick from Detroit, from saying you are a slave to your own lustful relationship with your spouse or partner. It is daft to even suggest you know anything at all about a relationship you are not involved with. If you fell naturally in love with someone with no “choosing” at all, why on earth do you think it would be different for homosexuals?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            There is no true loving relationship with another person without God. Two men, or two women, can never enter into the deep, intimate love that a man and woman are able to enter. God is Love, so, authentic romantic, spousal love must be as God intended. Therefore, since God cannot be part of any relationship, or any non-procreative, sexual act, that perverts marital conjugal joining; homosexuals do not enjoy true love, but engage in lustful relationships.

            The cult of homosexuality, too, is a practical hatred of the child, because it is the rejection of the woman and therefore the fruit of her womb, an ultimate compact with sterility and death.
            – John Saward, The Way of the Lamb

          • MisterPine

            I’m afraid you are crossing over into tinfoil hat territory with this one, Nick from Detroit. Now you are not only calling homosexual marriages counterfeit but the marriages of atheists as well, simply because there is not enough God in them for your liking. And again, you neatly overlook that marriage existed well before Biblical times and with many definitions, including same gender as well as polygamy.

            Worse still, you are speaking authoritatively about people you know nothing about. And not just one or two, but millions of homosexuals worldwide. They say they are in love, and you say that they are not. Why would ANYONE listen to you on this matter? Do you really expect anyone to believe that you know the minds of homosexuals better than they know themselves? Millions of people you have never met are all lying, is that what you want us to believe?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Nope, sorry, Mr. Pine. Just 2,000 years of Christian teachings. You know, the teachings that created what we call Western Civilization?
            Also, not one culture, in all of recorded history, countenanced anything like SS counterfeit so-called “marriage.” Polygamy? Yes. But not SS “marriage.”

            Now, have you figured out how Gen.1, Noah’s Ark, and the Temple are related? How about those Hebrew words? I’ll repeat them for you: Al Beit, Todah, Hekesh, Gebirah, Berith, and Shaba

          • MisterPine

            You’re only drifting further and further into La-La Land, Nick from Detroit. Noah’s Ark never took place. It is a physical impossibility.

            The world is far older than 2000 years, as are marriages, so your faith does not possess the authority to define how they work.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I think you might be the mayor of La-La Land, Mr. Pine. Who claims the world is only 2,000 years old?
            And, I asked how Noah’s Ark relates to Gen.1 and the Temple, did I not?

          • MisterPine

            What I said is that marriage is older than the 2000 years of Christian teachings you cited.

            I have told you before that I don’t play games with you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            All you do is play games, Mr. Pine. Why can’t you just admit that you know next to nothing about the Sacred Scriptures, and leave it at that?

            You wrote, and I now quote, “The world is far older than 2000 years […].”
            So…yeah.

          • MisterPine

            Because it’s not true, Nick from Detroit, and yes you DO play games…constantly. How many time have people like thoughtsfromflorida and Paul Hiett shut down your logic fails, and you keep coming back for more?

            But, because I’m a sucker for punishment, I’ll spell it all out for you once again:

            You: “Nope, sorry, Mr. Pine. Just 2,000 years of Christian teachings.”

            Me: “The world is far older than 2000 years, as are marriages.”

            You: “Who claims the world is only 2,000 years old?”

            And that’s where you took the conversation into La-La Land. The point was clearly that marriage is far older than the 2000 years’ worth of Christian teachings you specified. Therefore Christianity has no say in how marriage is defined.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            But, it is true, Mr. Pine. Or, else, you could answer my simple questions, if you’d studied the Sacred Scriptures, at all.
            How many times? Um…none. Zero. Zip. Nada. Mr. Hiett has run away with his tail between his legs. Because of all the times I had to school him on basic U.S. history, law, and ancient history, too.

            So, mentioning that “the world” is older than 2,000 years was a non sequitur, which I agree. That’s why I objected. And, as I’ve previously stated, God instituted the covenant marriage with Adam & Eve.
            Again, no culture in human history ever countenanced SS counterfeit so-called “marriage.” Nice try, though.

          • MisterPine

            You have a very interesting way of re-writing history, Nick from Detroit. Hiett has handed your butt to you more times than I can count, he hasn’t run away at all. You’re like a moth to flame, coming back for more. It’s almost painful to watch.

            You said 2000 years of Christian teachings. Not me. And you needed to have it pointed out to you that your blinkered view of a Christian-centric view of marriage was wrong. Do you tire of being wrong, Nick from Detroit? Because there are lots of homosexuals getting married in the USA, and all of them are legit in the eyes of the law. You don’t like that fact, do you? But a fact is what it is.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Only in the FantasyLand in which you live, Mr. Pine, did any leftwinger best me. I almost pitied Mr. Hiett. Having to embarrass him with his own links, as many times as I did. I lost count, in fact.
            And, now, you’ve called on him to give you a hand? How pathetic.
            Why can’t you name one culture in human history that countenanced SS counterfeit so-called “marriage”?

          • MisterPine

            It’s so typical, you are embarrassed on a daily basis with facts and you run away and claim victory. Not only that, you have the temerity to say you drove him away when you have done no such thing. I brought that fact to his attention to allow him one more chance to come back and set the score straight with you. That’s not pathetic, that’s calling you out.

            Why can’t I “name one culture in human history that countenanced SS counterfeit co-called “marriage”?” You know the answer to this. You have been told this before. The answer is that your question is loaded, and because it contains a false premise (the word “counterfeit” and your little disapproving quotation marks) I won’t dignify it. Re-word it, taking out your editorializing, and I will happily answer it.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Not only that, you have the temerity to say you drove him away when you have done no such thing.
            Umm…where is he, Mr. Pine?

            I brought that fact to his attention to allow him one more chance to come back and set the score straight with you.
            Still waiting.

            That’s not pathetic, that’s calling you out.

            You’re the only one who has been called out, Mr. Pine. Where’s your buddy, Mr. Hiett?

            You can’t name one culture that countenanced SS counterfeit “marriage” because one never existed. EVER! Just like you can’t provide simple biblical exegesis. You can’t even look up Hebrew words!

          • MisterPine

            According to my Disqus feed, he’s right here. He seems to have lost interest in speaking to you. I wonder why that is, Nick from Detroit? Think it’s because you say the same thing over and over and never learn from your mistakes?

            I think you think “calling me out” means that I refuse to answer your ridiculous and hateful loaded questions, then congratulations on your self-delusion, Nick from Detroit. There are many cultures that have countenanced SS marriage. I’m not going to name them until you learn to phrase the question without including your little hateful buzzwords. Think you can do that, or have you made it a part of your religion to only say “counterfeit” and include disapproving quotation marks when referring to SS marriage?

            37 states. 37. A full seventy-four percent, and you continue to bury your head in the sand. I think that’s about the worst thing I have ever heard.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, Mr. Pine, he is still commenting. Just not to me. Obviously, he can’t deal with being thoroughly owned by me. So, I’m still gloating. He wouldn’t help you, his biggest cheerleader. How sad.
            31 states. 31. That’s how many passed SS counterfeit so-called “marriage” bans in this country. Unfortunately, several of them have been unconstitutionally overturned by homo-fascist judges. But, that’s okay, because SCOTUS will overturn them, just like they did with Hobby Lobby.

          • MisterPine

            But you haven’t “thoroughly owned” ANYONE, Nick. In order to do that you would have t have facts. And you don’t. What you have is faith, and you continue to believe that your Christian faith elevates you above everyone else and that you somehow have the right to legislate your Christian morality on those who disagree with it. Paul has made that same point to you over and over, countless times, with countless links to the facts you so desperately avoid, and you are going to call that a claim to victory? Nick from Detroit, are you not COMPLETELY ashamed of your dishonest behaviour?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, the fact remains that the “gay community” is on my side, not yours, based on the apologies & castigating of Courtney Hoffman & Buz Smith to all of you haters who attacked those brave pizza shop owners. You have brought shame the “gay community” to which you claim you’re standing up for. Why don’t you just stop, already?

            Here’s an easy question for someone who has studied the Bible, as you falsely claim that you have, Mr. Pine: How are Armageddon & King Josiah related?

          • MisterPine

            Courtney Hoffman contributed money as a way of apologizing for some of the death threats and other inappropriate things coming in to the pizzeria. She didn’t contribute the money as an apology for being a lesbian, so you can drop that self-righteous crock right there. Just because the pizzeria owners were subject to some unfair things, DOESN’T MEAN THEY WERE RIGHT.

            I’m not answering any of your tests Nick from Detroit. I’ve told you that so many times now that I’m seriously wondering if you have a reading comprehension problem. If you wish to believe I don’t know the Bible as well as you would like me to, go right ahead. The Bible is irrelevant.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Wrong, Mr. Pine. Can’t you ever get the facts straight?
            She was speaking of people just like you. Intolerant, hate-filled anti-Christian bigots:
            “As a member of the gay community, I would like to apologize for the mean spirited attacks on you and your business. I know many gay individuals who fully support your right to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs. We are outraged at the level of hate and intolerance that has been directed at you and I sincerely hope that you are able to rebuild.”
            – Courtney Hoffman
            http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/07/gay-woman-apologizes-to-christian-owned-indiana-pizzeria-sends-donation/

          • MisterPine

            Your lack of reading comprehension is bordering on the unbelievable now, but just exactly what does “hate and intolerance” suggest to you? Could it be death threats and threats of physical harm? DUH?

            No one, myself included, is intolerant, nor hate-filled, nor anti-Christian. We just don’t like it when people try to use their Christian Faith to deny service to people based on something they didn’t choose and which is none of anyone’s business. But to you, this is all about sodomy, right?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Hate and intolerance suggests to me, Mr. Pine, people like you, Mr. Pine, and all the other anti-Christian bigots who have been posting their bile on the pages of this Christian site for weeks now. All because you want to force your beliefs on us.

            What does “I know many gay individuals who fully support your right to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs,” mean to you, Mr. Pine? Live and let live, maybe?

            The “gay community” is against you, and the rest. And so am I.

          • MisterPine

            Get real, Nick from Detroit. Who is forcing their beliefs on WHO, here? You are fighting for the right to deny service to homosexuals. That is where this issue begins. Tell me how this means in ANY way that gay people are forcing THEIR beliefs on YOU? The sheer, obvious bigotry and hate coming from Christian bigots in that move, the utter slap in the face to gay people whose private lives are no one else’s business, and you have the nerve to say it’s the gays who are being cruel? How? By standing up and saying it’s wrong? THAT is hate and bigotry to you, telling someone else not to be hateful and bigoted?

            It’s complete dishonesty watching you try to turn this around to make you bigots out to be the martyrs.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, according to the “gay community,” we have the right to our beliefs.
            “I know many gay individuals who fully support your right to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs.”

            Getting it yet?
            When a community forces its citizens to provide services/products for a PUBLIC (not private) ceremony (i.e., SS counterfeit so-called “wedding”), against their wills, that is FORCING your views on us. Capice?

            Are you going to admit that Miss Hoffman wasn’t just speaking about the “death threats,” as you falsely claimed?
            What about your hero, Paul? What was that lie again?

          • MisterPine

            You are utterly hung up on the words of one person. Hoffman is wrong, and she is as out to lunch as you are. I saw an excellent parallel in a political cartoon the other day, a man working in a fast food restaurant refusing to serve an obese customer because his religion believes that gluttony is a sin. That is precisely what the pizzeria owners are doing, refusing to provide the only service they provide – serving food – because they are bigoted towards homosexuals. Do YOU get it yet? Will you ever?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            “You are utterly hung up on the words of one person.”
            It’s way more than just one person, Mr. Pine. Keep burying your head in the sand, by all means.

            “Hoffman is wrong, and she is as out to lunch as you are.”
            Why are you so homophobic, Mr. Pine? The “gay community” agrees with us Christians that we all be able to freely contract with whomever we please.

            You, and your cartoonist, need a course in analogy, because that one fails, miserably. For the umpteenth time, none of these Christian proprietors have refused to serve homosexuals just because they are homosexual. They have refused to provide services/products for a SS counterfeit so-called “wedding” ceremony. Get it…now?

          • MisterPine

            The vast, overwhelming majority of gay and lesbian people disagree in the strongest possible terms with the owners of the pizzeria. Miss Hoffman is one sole exception, and Buz may not even exist based on what I’ve tried to find out about him. Nice try Nick from Detroit, but you are the homophobe. You will be very hard pressed to find more than a handful of homosexuals who will blithely and happily acquiesce to Christian bigots who are telling them their very presence makes them unworthy of service in a shop. That’s a disgusting thing to tell any human being, and no one in their right mind should stand for it. And you can say “Oh but Miss Hoffman, Miss Hoffman” all you like, she’s one person. One. And in the vast MINORITY.

            Correction, it’s not a “SS counterfeit so-called “wedding” ceremony. In the states where SS marriage is permitted, it’s a wedding. Your disapproving adjectives and punctuation notwithstanding. And because they are legal, there is no legal reason to refuse them. I mean, a 6-year old could understand this, and I don’t know if it’s because you honestly CAN’T understand it or if it’s your way of stamping your little feet in protest. Either way, you don’t have the law on your side. Human rights will triumph.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            “I know many gay individuals who fully support your right to stand up for your beliefs and run your business according to those beliefs.”

            Sorry, Mr. Pine, I’ll trust that two actual homosexuals, rather than you, really speak for the “gay community,” okay? The fact that you have attacked Miss Hoffman & Mr. Smith proves that you’re a homophobe. Or, else, it proves that you’re a fascist, and will not abide ANY dissension from your leftwing ideology. Because you’re a mind-numbed robot, spewing lefty talking-points and propaganda.
            SCOTUS will rule our way, the same way they did in Hobby Lobby.

          • MisterPine

            No, I’m not surprised at all, Nick from Detroit, I think you’re probably also the kind of person who looks for the two scientists in the world who oppose evolution when the other bazillion of them have embraced it. Still no proof Buz Smith exists, either.

            It’s also says something VERY interesting about you that me saying I disagree with Miss Hoffman or that she’s wrong is an attack. Yes, what a nasty, mean-spirited “attack” to say that I disagree and that she’s wrong. And I apparently did this to the mysterious Buz Smith too? Whom no one can prove is even real.

            The rest of your message is white noise.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I have proven, over and over and over and over, again, that you know absolutely NOTHING about the Bible. Admit it and move on, okay, Mr. Pine?

          • MisterPine

            No you have not, you have tried fruitlessly to engage me in a game of Bible related questioning which I have refused to play. Lying for Jesus is still lying, Nick from Detroit.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Do you even know who King Josiah was, Mr. Pine?
            Did you know that Armageddon is only mentioned once in the entire Bible?

          • MisterPine

            Did you know that Dorothy first met the scarecrow, then the tin man, then the cowardly lion?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m sure you know much more about Judy Garland than you do about the Sacred Scriptures, Mr. Pine. I think I’ve already proven that.

          • MisterPine

            It’s interesting how you seem to think the worst insult of all is to call me gay. I’m not, but given the choice I’d take it over being a slave to a book of Bronze Age absurdities any day of the week.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, I admit it, Mr. Pine, I took a jab at you. But, c’mon! That was such a soft-ball pitch, how could I not hit it out of the park?

          • MisterPine

            Incidentally your evolution quote got an interesting response:

            “Showing you the irrefutable facts that destroy the fairy tale to which you’ve dedicated your life is a waste of time. No matter how much contradiction exists between the real world
            and your myth or how much evidence we preset to you, you’ll always cling to the myth while plugging your ears and screaming “LIAR LIAR I CAN’T HEAR YOU”.

            And the only reason your catholic faith doesn’t depend on how
            old the universe is because it doesn’t support your belief. Let a slice of toast vaguely resembled a bearded face, though, and you’ll rush to argue about it ’til you’re blue in the face.”

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m sorry, Mr. Pine, but, I don’t see that response in this thread. Where have I screamed anything. I’ve remained very, very, patient with all of you anti-Christian bigots, haven’t I? Almost, super-naturally patient, one might say. (Hint: I mean prayer.)

            And the only reason your catholic faith doesn’t depend on how old the universe is because it doesn’t support your belief.
            I’m not sure what, exactly, the author is trying to say there, Mr. Pine.

            Let a slice of toast vaguely resembled a bearded face, though, and you’ll rush to argue about it ’til you’re blue in the face.

            Blindly flailing at other Christians, in a poor attempt to hit me, doesn’t really make your point, Mr. Pine.

          • MisterPine

            Why are you looking in this thread for it, Nick from Detroit? It’s on your fan page on fstdt.com.

            And screaming? Oh yes you have. With your dogged repetition and insistence despite the facts presented to you that SS marriages are “counterfeit,” with your insistence that we are “anti-Christian bigots”, when we’ve repeatedly made it clear that we object only to your interfering in the lives of homosexuals who have the right to live happy lives without your condemning and judging practices.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Oh, you’re still talking about the Win’95 site? The one read by you and two of your atheist buddies? I’ll bet your hero, Paul, is one of them, right? Did you see that he’s run away again, and refused to defend himself?
            p.s. I’ve never condemned or judged homosexuals, or, those who have made a mockery of Holy Matrimony by engaging in SS counterfeit so-called “wedding” ceremonies. And, I never will. As a Catholic, I love everyone. Even you, Mr. Pine. God Bless!

          • MisterPine

            It’s a site dedicated to showcasing extreme Christian stupidity and hate. It serves an important purpose and is highly regarded.

            Paul hasn’t run away. You remind me of a little kid who taunts a big kid when he turns to leave and then runs away when the big kid returns. Paul didn’t run away last time and he’s not running away this time. Why are you telling me this anyway? Am I Paul’s keeper?

            Your words condemn you: In the states where SS marriage is legal, the word counterfeit does not apply, and serves only to underscore your issues.

          • MisterPine

            And if you want an answer as to why you’ve lost Paul’s attention, it’s because Richard is out-idioting you at the moment. He appears to have his hands full.

          • Kara Connor

            Be fair though, it’s a tough call on who is least familiar with science and reality, between Nick_from_Detroit and Richard.

          • MisterPine

            Yeah, that’s a bet I wouldn’t take either. One thing’s certain though, both Nick and Richard are confident they have all the answers.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Au contraire, Miss Connor. Science is one of my favorite subjects, along with history and biblical archaeology. I have a very open mind. I go where the facts take me.

            I don’t blindly believe the suppositions, assertions, and guesses of so-called “men of science,” as so many others are willing to do.

          • Kara Connor

            Clearly the Constitution is not one of your favorite subjects, which explains why you are supremely ignorant on the matter.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m sure I’ve forgotten more about the Constitution than you’ll ever learn, Miss Connor. Next.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Oh, is their your new excuse, Mr. Pine? Or, is it Mr. Hiett’s?
            You would both do better to actually study some history, current events, and the Bible. Rather than embarrassing yourselves on public forums, like these.

          • MisterPine

            I believe Paul responded to another of your patent absurdities earlier on. So there’s your answer. You might have had better luck getting it answered sooner if you’d asked Paul directly. I don’t know him.

            Given that you believe the universe was created on March 25th, I daresay you’re the one embarrassing yourself. Along with your hate and intolerance to the LGBT crowd.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            p.s. Noah’s Ark never took place. It is a physical impossibility.
            You were there, Mr. Pine?

          • MisterPine

            No, Nick from Detroit, but in the same way we know the world to be between 4.5 and 4.6 billion years old without being present, it is likewise unnecessary to have been present in order to know that the Ark story as presented in the Bible could not have possibly taken place. Science is your friend.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Yes, science is my friend. But, not your’s, apparently, Mr. Pine.
            4+ billion years old is just the latest guess. 200 years ago, it was 70,000 years old, based on nothing. Only some atheist’s attempt to “prove” that the Bible is wrong. Well, my Catholic faith doesn’t depend on how old the universe is, okay? Arguing about it is a complete waste of time.

          • MisterPine

            Your Catholic faith shouldn’t enter into it. If science tells you and can prove it, then your Catholic faith is wrong. That’s how it works. We’re not talking about matters of faith, but of science. Radiometric dating, Nick from Detroit. Read up on it. That’s your homework.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow. Look at you laying down the law!
            Class dismissed?

          • MisterPine

            Apparently. Aren’t you a Catholic basher? You could have done a little schooling of your own!

          • The Last Trump

            Go get ’em, MisterIntolerance!
            Clean up that Christian website of all of those…er, Christians.

            Oh and hey, you actually forgot to post your sick website. No worries.
            I got it bud. (You’re slipping hater!) 🙂

            http://www.fstdt.com/Search.aspx?Fundie=Last+Trump

          • MisterPine

            Nice try at changing the subject Rumpy. Not going to tell Nick, a Catholic, all your usual anti-Catholic malarkey?

          • The Last Trump

            ?
            Anti Catholic?
            Is she the reason you hate God, little buddy?
            And turned you off to women?
            That’s very sad, Pinester. I’m here if you ever need to talk.

            You know, ABOUT FSTDT.com! 🙂
            As usual.

            http://fstdt.com/
            WHERE HATERS GO TO HATE! 😉

          • MisterPine
          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I just said that my Catholic faith doesn’t depend on how the universe is. Is English your second language, Mr. Pine?
            I’ll go where ever sound science takes me. So far, almost all of it is mere speculation. A few people make a good living at it, though.
            Now, how about those Hebrew words?

          • MisterPine

            I am not interested in your Hebrew words. I’ve told you I’m not playing your little games. How many times have I told you that? And you continue to try to draw me in. Is English YOUR second language, Nick from Detroit?

            And if you are saying that evolution is NOT “sound science” there is little hope for you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Unlike you, Mr. Pine, I try to keep an open mind. Like a true scientist should.

            You’re not interested in those Hebrew words because you don’t know the Bible. And, you appear unable to even look them up, despite internet access. How sad.

          • MisterPine

            As I’ve stated several times now, Nick from Detroit, the world of the Bible don’t matter. They were written by human beings. There isn’t a single thing you could alert me to in the Bible that would make me take the slightest bit of interest because the Bible has nothing to do with God.

          • The Last Trump

            “WE” know, do we.
            Hee, hee!
            Science is your friend too, MisterIntolerance.

            Say, why do think women and men “fit” together so well, science lover?
            Does science “tell” us to put male sexual organs in a bum?
            Sooo many questions…..

            Oh yeah, almost forgot:
            http://www.fstdt.com/Search.aspx?Fundie=Last+Trump

            You’re welcome, little buddy! 🙂
            What else you got?

          • MisterPine

            More grist for the mill, Trumpy? Thanks. Hee hee hee! The folks at fstdt.com will delight in the fact that you don’t understand that heterosexuals put male sexual organs in female bums too. Keep them coming, little budster!

          • The Last Trump

            The folks at STD.com WOULD delight in THAT wouldn’t they?
            Sick perverts. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Perverts, REALLY? Why would you say that? Because they are armed with facts and science? Well onward then, Christian soldier, go beat them up with your Bible, go refute their vicious pack of truth.

          • The Last Trump

            Wow! Somebody’s a quitter!
            Couldn’t stick it out with anything, huh?
            And you gave it all up for sodomy and sexual immorality! Nice!
            Sorry. Just passing through.
            Moving on…:)

          • MisterPine

            Correction, I gave it all up to stand up to faith-based bigots and homophobes. And it’s going swimmingly! Seen your fan page lately?

          • MisterPine

            You’re very fond of putting words in my mouth, aren’t you Nick from Detroit? I never said I don’t know the Bible inside-out. I never said I did, either. I said I’m not playing games with you. The subject at hand is Christian bigotry and intolerance towards homosexuals. That’s what I am discussing with you.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I never said I don’t know the Bible inside-out. I never said I did, either.

            Excuse me? Can’t you even remember what you wrote a few hours ago, Mr. Pine? Let me refresh your memory, okay?

            I know the Bible inside-out, and cannot support the writings of human beings who claim to speak on God’s behalf.

            And I’ve obviously proved that you don’t know the Bible, at all. How can I put words in your mouth, Mr. Pine, when you keep putting your foot in it?

          • MisterPine

            My mistake, I did say that. And yes, I do consider myself to be pretty good with Biblical knowledge from years of reading it. But it’s irrelevant to the discussion which you keep wanting to dodge, which is why you want to use your faith to deny rights to homosexuals.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Hey, at least you can admit it when you make a mistake, Mr. Pine.
            Mr. Hiett can’t even do that!
            I don’t want to use my faith to deny rights to homosexuals. Because, there is not right to force someone to contract with you, and, there is no right to marriage. Marriage being between a man and a woman.
            You, on the other hand, want to deny business owners the right to freely enter into contracts with others, and, completely change the definition of marriage. You are for the tyranny of judges, while I’m for individual freedom.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Judging by how things have gone in Indiana and Arkansas, I don’t think any luck is needed. What we need and appreciate: christofascists like you speaking out and making our case for us.

            Thanks Nick! You’ve been a real help!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I pity you so much, Parque. Not only do you have nothing better to do than stalk me, but, my little comments bother you soooo much that you have to go to every one of them and make your inane replies. Have I hurt you that much? I don’t mean to. But, I can’t take responsibility for the fact that you have OCD, Parque.
            UPDATE: Memories Pizza’s GoFundMe has now received OVER $540,000 in donations!!!

          • Parque_Hundido

            Looks like your personality disorder is dangerously close to doing you in!

            I’m delighted that the poor, misguided couple now have $540K of money that would otherwise have gone to fund Ted Cruise’s campaign.

            Perhaps they can use the money to get an education or fix their teeth.

          • Parque_Hundido

            I think he was pointing out, quite accurately, that no one appears to be rallying to the aid of the christofascists except other christofascists, themselves political pariahs.

            When Tony Peekins comes to your aid, run for cover! You realize that he has close ties to the KKK, don’t you? But then you defend Nazis and child molesters, so maybe that’s okay for you.

  • Parque_Hundido

    We should interpret this as a sign of how things will go from now on. No one will tolerate religious bigots who demand special rights.

    According to polls, more Americans approve of LGBT people than approve of evangelical Christians. We’re tired of right wing extremists demanding special rights so that they can bully gays.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza’s GoFundMe has now received OVER $420,000 in donations!!!
    Thanks homo-fascists!

    • The Last Trump

      “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.” Mathew 5:11.

      Nice to see people of virtue and conviction refuse to waver and receive their just reward. In this life AND the next!

    • Parque_Hundido

      I’m thrilled at this news for three reasons:

      1. This is money those people can use to get an education. Maybe then they could open a viable business and understand state and local law. And maybe they’ll learn to speak to the press without coming across like ignorant bigots.

      2. This is money coming from the christofascist right wing and represents cash that will no linge be available to their political candidates.

      3. This is yet more evidence that christofascists aren’t the brightest bulbs on the porch and will give resources to the absolute worst causes on the planet.

  • Parque_Hundido

    This is a great story. It shows that America will no longer tolerate the anti-gay antics of christofascist religious extremists.

    It’s a good day for freedom when we see people like this ridiculed for their anti-gay views.

  • Parque_Hundido

    The one question I have is why they made up the “bomb threats”. Was it just to bilk money out of gullible Fox viewers?

  • Paul Hiett

    My favorite quote from the owner is this:

    “That’s a lifestyle that you choose. I
    choose to be heterosexual. They choose to be homosexual,” Kevin O’Connor
    told the TV station. “You can’t beat me over the head with something
    they choose to be.”

    So, it’s ok to discriminate based on your choice of a religion, but you get upset about other peoples choices.

    God the hypocrisy is amazing.

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      I’m still waiting for answers to my two very simple questions, Mr. Hiett.
      Why does refusing to provide a service/product force you, in any way, to believe in the Bible?
      And, why is it okay for private schools to discriminate, and private businesses can’t?

      • Paul Hiett

        I’ll answer your first question with a question. Why do you think it’s ok to use your choice of a religion to discriminate against the choices of other people?

        I’ve already addressed your second question below.

        • Nick_from_Detroit

          That’s all you ever do, Mr. Hiett. Answer a question with a question. Except, when you deflect, obfuscate, and just ignore them. Which is what you did with my second question, below. You last told me to read the CRA of 1964, which doesn’t tell me why, you, Paul Hiett, thinks it’s okay.
          Plus, I’ve repeatedly answered your question, already.
          So, I’m still waiting.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re asking my why I think it’s ok that businesses can’t discriminate? Really?

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Seriously, is English your second language?
            I’m asking you, Paul Hiett, why is it okay for religious schools to discriminate, but not for businesses?
            You made the incoherent statement that Catholic schools don’t take govt. money. But, neither do private businesses. Then you told me to read the CRA of 1964. That law doesn’t tell me WHY it’s okay for religious schools to discriminate, but not for businesses. What is the difference?
            So, stop with the distractions, and admit that you can’t answer, okay?

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza’s GoFundMe has now received OVER $540,000 in donations!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!

    • Joe Soap

      Fund them for what exactly? You are basically giving someone money without knowing what they intend to do with it. If I was them I’d buy a big house and maybe a boat.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    A bit of a pallet cleanser, and a peace offering, on this Holy Saturday, after days of rancorous debate. Enjoy.
    (Interesting backstory to this: The Japanese have had these types of performances since it was brought to them during the Great War!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBlQZyTF_LY

    Oh friends, not these sounds!
    Let us instead strike up more pleasing
    and more joyful ones!
    Joy!
    Joy!

    Joy, beautiful spark of divinity,
    Daughter from Elysium,
    We enter, burning with fervour,
    heavenly being, your sanctuary!
    Your magic brings together
    what fashion has sternly divided.
    All men shall become brothers,
    wherever your gentle wings hover.

    Whoever has been lucky enough
    to become a friend to a friend,
    Whoever has found a beloved wife,
    let him join our songs of praise!
    Yes, and anyone who can call one soul
    his own on this earth!
    Any who cannot, let them slink away
    from this gathering in tears!

    Every creature drinks in joy
    at nature’s breast;
    Good and Bad alike
    follow her trail of roses.
    She gives us kisses and wine,
    a true friend, even in death;
    Even the worm was given desire,
    and the cherub stands before God.

    Gladly, just as His suns hurtle
    through the glorious universe,
    So you, brothers, should run your course,
    joyfully, like a conquering hero.

    Be embraced, you millions!
    This kiss is for the whole world!
    Brothers, above the canopy of stars
    must dwell a loving father.
    Do you bow down before Him, you millions?
    Do you sense your Creator, o world?
    Seek Him above the canopy of stars!
    He must dwell beyond the stars.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    Here are two in honor of the King of kings and Lord of lords. Happy Easter!
    (The second one is more on the cute side!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76RrdwElnTU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhjWdr-LAA

    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah,
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah

    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth

    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah

    (For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth)
    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth
    (Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah)
    Hallelujah

    The kingdom of this world;
    Is become
    The kingdom of our Lord,
    And of His Christ
    And of His Christ

    And He shall reign for ever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah, hallelujah
    And Lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah, hallelujah
    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah, hallelujah
    And Lord of lords forever and ever hallelujah, hallelujah
    King of kings forever and ever hallelujah, hallelujah

    And Lord of lords
    King of kings and Lord of lords
    And He shall reign
    And He shall reign
    And He shall reign
    He shall reign
    And He shall reign forever and ever

    King of kings forever and ever
    And Lord of lords, hallelujah, hallelujah
    And He shall reign forever and ever
    King of kings and Lord of lords
    King of kings and Lord of lords

    And He shall reign forever and ever
    Forever and ever and ever and ever
    (King of kings and Lord of lords)

    Hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah, hallelujah
    Hallelujah

  • A J Jackson Gum

    Hutchinson is a wuss.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Memories Pizza’s, the Indiana pizza place that has been mercilessly attacked by homo-fascists, GoFundMe account was shut-down on Friday, as planned. But, not before it received OVER $840,000!!!! Thanks, homo-fascists!
    Even though anti-freedom loving leftwingers did everything they could to bully GoFundMe into shutting down the account. Losers!

    Meanwhile…
    The homo-fascists set up their own GoFundMe account in a lame attempt to show those pizza-making bigots what’s for! They set a goal of reaching One Million Dollars. They raised a grand total of….less than 600 bucks!

    Here’s the link to the florist being sued by homo-fascists, and she might lose her store and home:
    http://www.gofundme.com/mz6zm4

    • MisterPine

      (crickets)

    • MisterPine

      Incidentally, if you really want to know the score regarding who the REAL bigots are, this should help you figure it out:

      Pastor James David Manning, Harlem –

      Christians Must Be Willing To Kill To Stop Sodomites

      “.. against the sodomites, against racism – we’re gonna have to be willing
      to kill as well. You can try to arrest me, saying that I’m inciting murderous
      behavior. Go ahead and try. See if that will stand up in court. Let me tell you
      something, if you’re not willing to kill for what you believe, if you’re not will
      to kill those that are diametrically opposed in great evil against you believe,
      then you’re not worthy of his service. You gotta be willing to kill.”

      http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2

      Pastor Donnie Romero, founder of Stedfast Baptist Church in Fort Worth,
      Texas

      Texas pastor brags about harassing lesbians as he calls for death of ‘dirty
      f*ggots’

      “I love that part of the Bible, and I’m going to preach that part of the
      Bible until the day I die, and if I ever stop preaching that part of the Bible,
      I hope my kids tell me, ‘Dad, you’re going soft on sin. You need to get up
      there and rip on these queers because it’s only getting worse and worse’”

      “Romero said gays should be marked for death, unlike other sinners,
      because he said God views them as an abomination.”

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201

      Pastor Stephen L. Anderson, pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe,
      Arizona

      ‘Kill All Homos’ Pastor: ‘It’s the Government’s Job’ to Execute Gay People
      (VIDEO)

      http://www.addictinginfo.org/2

      http://tellmenow.com/2014/05/a

      “It was right there in the Bible all along — and they’re out spending
      billions of dollars in research and testing. It’s curable — right there,” he
      told his congregation after quoting from Leviticus. “Because if you executed
      the homos like God recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running
      rampant.”

      “Rather than the government’s job is to punish criminals and to execute
      those who commit capital crimes and, according to the Bible, homosexuality is a
      capital crime, and I didn’t write the Bible.”

      “Well, that’s just a fallacy that it just turns out that certain people
      are gay. That’s just a lie. Because it’s not random — it’s not something that’s
      just gonna accidentally happen to one of my children…”

      AZ Pastor’s ‘Biblical’ FINAL SOLUTION to ‘Homo’ ‘Pedophiles’: Mass
      Extermination (VIDEO)

      http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/p

      “And that, my friend, is the cure for AIDS. It was right there in the
      Bible all along — and they’re out spending billions of dollars in research and
      testing. It’s curable — right there. Because if you executed the homos like God
      recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running rampant.

      Because just think — what would be your attitude toward pedophiles? That should
      be your attitude toward homos. Would you have pedophiles over for a family
      gathering? Would you invite pedophiles into the church? No — that’s what they
      are.”

      Pastor Charles L. Worley of Providence Road Baptist Church

      “I figured a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers. Build a great, big,
      large fence — 150- or 100-mile long — put all the lesbians in there . . . do
      the same thing for the queers and the homosexuals, and have that fence
      electrified so they can’t get out.”

      http://www.nydailynews.com/new

      Pastor Robby Gallaty, Brainerd Baptist Church

      “They must be put to death. And their blood is on their own hands”

      http://www.addictinginfo.org/2

      Pastor Curtis Knapp, of the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas

      “They should be put to death. Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start
      killing them, no?’ I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they
      should.”

      http://www.opposingviews.com/i

      Pastor Robert Anderson, Colonial Baptist Church

      “Those who practice such things are deserving of death”

      http://www.theindychannel.com/

      Pastor Michael V. Williams, PreachingPolitics

      “practice of homosexuality in the United States of America and in all its
      territories and possessions, and in all its States, Counties and Cities shall
      be a felony punishable by ten years in prison at hard labor.”

      http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201

      Reverend Michael Crook

      “I really, truly wish that atheism and homosexuality could both be
      criminalized with the death penalty as end result”

      http://aattp.org/christian-pas