UK Tribunal Rules Against Christian Suspended for Sharing Faith with Muslim Co-Worker

WasteneyLONDON — An employment tribunal in the United Kingdom has ruled against an occupational therapist who was suspended for nine months after her Muslim co-worker alleged that she was trying to convert her.

Victoria Wasteney, 38, had developed a friendship with her colleague Enya Nawaz, 27, as they worked at the St. John Howard Center in London. The two had discussed Islam and Christianity, and Wasteney had talked to Nawaz about her church’s efforts to fight human trafficking.

“The whole basis of our conversations around faith started with her telling me that she’d had an encounter with God, that she felt she had been brought to London for a particular reason,” Wasteney told reporters.

“We were both interested in what one another were involved in,” she said. “It was part of the normal process of building a relationship with someone, to talk about primarily things we were interested in outside of work.”

In 2013, after Nawaz told Wasteney about her personal health concerns on a lunch break, Wasteney offered to pray for her. Nawaz replied, “Okay,” and Wasteney laid hands on her and prayed that God would give her “peace and healing.”

Wastney also invited her co-worker to church and gave her a copy of the book “I Dared to Call Him Father,” which is about a Muslim woman who converted to Christianity. Wasteney said that she had never read the book, but that it had been recommended by a friend.

“Because we had had these conversations, it did not seem abnormal,” she explained.

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But Nawaz soon lodged a complaint with her employer, alleging that Wasteney was trying to convert her. Wasteney was consequently suspended for nine months with pay while an investigation was conducted into the matter.

Last year, a disciplinary panel declared Wasteney guilty of “bullying and harassment,” stating that she was wrong to pray with her co-worker, invite her to church and give her a book about her faith. She was presented with a written warning and allowed to return to work—but not in her specialist field.

The matter then was appealed to an employment tribunal out of an effort to draw awareness to concerns over those who might face discipline for speaking about their faith in the workplace.

“I’m not particularly fighting for myself,” Wasteney told Christian Today. “This needs to be something that’s talked about. … I prayed with this girl in my lunchtime and I nearly lost my job over it.”

But this week, the tribunal upheld the panel’s ruling, stating that it dealt properly with the situation. According to reports, attorneys for Wasteney had argued that the European Convention on Human Rights “enshrines the freedom to be able to speak about faith in the workplace and not be disciplined for it.”

Wasteney said that she is disappointed in the outcome.

“I knew she was from a different faith background and I was respectful of that. I didn’t force my beliefs on anyone at any point. Surely there should be room for mutual conversations about faith, where appropriate, in the workplace?” she said in a statement on Wednesday.

“I am extremely disappointed with the tribunal’s decision to side with my employer,” Wasteney continued. “There is already an unnatural caginess around faith and belief which is an obstruction to building meaningful relationships in the workplace.”


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  • Tara

    what a terrible person; praying like that with someone. The nerve!! smh………

  • staad

    there will come a time when simply greeting a person with ‘have a nice day, god bless you’ is considered verbal harassment. while the islamists rallying in the streets for more blood is tolerated.

    • 1joe_blow

      Like Toby Keith sings in ‘American Ride’… just don’t get busted singing Christmas carols….

      Heaven forbid you wish somebody Merry Christmas too.

  • MisterPine

    Why do so many people of faith feel it is their mission to “convert” others? How about just letting them choose what to believe, if anything?

    • jason bourne

      Why are YOU here to tell people that they should not have any faith? HYPOCRITE

      • MisterPine

        I said nothing of the kind.
        LUNATIC

        • The Last Trump

          Wow. Look at ALL the people calling you out.
          Don’t say I didn’t warn you Pine. Get used to it.
          We’re kind of like an fstdt website huh, little buddy?
          With ALL the people laughing at your ridiculous, hateful posts.
          And I didn’t even have to capture and submit them! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Perspective please, Rumpy. Jason above accused me of telling people they should not have any faith. You can see for yourself that I never said that. Sorry to shut down your schadenfreude machine but I hardly call that “all the people calling me out”. Not going to sink in,though, is it, Rumpy? Try facts and not wishful thinking if you actually intend to “call me out”.

    • Maranatha2011

      How can they choose if they never hear anything different from what they already know?

      • MisterPine

        Doesn’t that work both ways?

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Indeed, it does. Which is why I always like to hear evidence from a-theists for the No God Hypothesis.

          BTW, just to answer your original question: Jesus’ last words were to go and make disciples of all nations. That is the reason for Christians wanting to convert others: we want what is best for other people, and Hell (the absence of God) is not best for others. But, we do indeed respect an individual’s right to not follow Jesus. Great questions, MisterPine!

          • MisterPine

            Uh huh. And never once, even for a SECOND, considering that maybe they’re right and you’re the one who’s wrong. It always has to be the Christian who “educates” the others.

          • The Last Trump

            ?
            It’s sort of what CHRISTIANS do. You know, spread CHRISTIANITY!? Duh. Were you expecting us to apologize?!

            It is a matter of historical record that it was Christian people in Christian nations who abolished slavery, established laws
            protecting individual rights, elevated the status of women, protected the rights of children, established unprecedented worldwide humanitarian organizations like The Red Cross and The Salvation Army, and inspired some of the greatest works of art, architecture, music, and literature the world has ever seen. Christianity has quite simply been an unparalleled force for good for humanity in transforming lives for the better.

            No apologies will be forthcoming from the “body” of Jesus Christ.
            When something’s right, it’s right. And you hold fast to THAT.
            If, you’re at all intelligent.

          • MisterPine

            I call it proselytizing, and it’s no different than when Jehovah’s Witnesses go knocking door to door. Spreading a message is one thing but seeing it as a mission to convert someone who’s comfortable in their own faith is obnoxious. Your mileage may vary. But I believe people should be free to believe as they like.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You spread that like a virus. I’m glad the courts ruled as they did. You people should learn to keep your superstitions private.

          • The Last Trump

            The courts? Those buildings where judges and witnesses swear oaths over THE BIBLE before taking office or testifying?
            Ahh, yes. The courts! Gotta love ’em, eh you religious bigot Parque!
            Hee, hee! 🙂 Too easy!

          • Parque_Hundido

            No. The courts, where you’ve been convicted of molesting children.

            That’s not what happens in the US or the UK. No bibles. Sorry.

          • The Last Trump

            Shake those fists and stomp those feet!
            But you just can’t change the facts, pouter! 🙁

          • Parque_Hundido

            I was right, huh? Your parole officer warned you. How many restraining orders out on you Trumpy? How long have you been forbidden from going near schools?

          • The Last Trump

            I have to say, I’m disappointed Parque. I thought there would be some witty banter from you but all I get is this drivel? It would appear I’ve given yet another troll too much credit.
            As you were. You poor, attention starved victim of LGBT brutality. 🙁

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re disappointed, just as you were disappointed when your parents rejected you. It’s the same cycle, over and over.

            That’s how you got int trouble in the first place, isn’t it?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Not me, MisterPine: I am a former hardcore a-theist. I have been on both sides of this issue. I still don’t care much for the JW’s at my door, but I do reverse witness to them. And to Mormons.

            I am in total agreement with you that there are good ways to evangelize and poor ways to do so. I think that this woman did her evangelizing in a remarkably beautiful manner: winsome, loving, and humble. She showed genuine concern for her co-worker. Probably a case study for how to do it.

            But, back to the reason FOR it: remember that we Christians believe that Jesus has saved us from an eternity spent apart from God (that’s the definition of Hell). His final words were for us to evangelize. The reason for that is because Jesus taught us that Hell is for real, and that, if we truly love our neighbor as ourselves, we would NEVER desire him or her to go to Hell. To not evangelize would be kind of like watching someone about to step over a cliff and say nothing, or worse say “It’s OK that your beliefs are different from mine and you don’t think there is a cliff ahead. Just keep on walking.”

            So, I just wanted you to understand a bit about what it is like from the other side of the fence. There is an urgency here, under Christian theism. But, yes, I agree 100% with you that poor evangelism is unacceptable. I just don’t think that is what we are seeing in this particular case. (A good example would be killing an unbeliever if they do not convert – totally anti-Christian. Almost Islamic. :-)) Great talking with you, Sir! (PS. Is your moniker related to pine trees, because I am a big fan of them?)

          • MisterPine

            There is really no difference in any of the major religions in the world in terms of how they get their messages out. All think they are correct, and that everyone else is in need of seeing the light. Christianity isn’t special in that regard. They are just more forceful when it comes to converting others. I must be careful to note that not ALL Christians are guilty of this, Catholics and Episcopalians and Lutherans and others are respectful and keep things to themselves. But the “evangelical” brand of Christian sees it as his mission to turn as many of THEM into US as possible. I find that offensive personally, because my brain is in perfectly functional working order and I am capable of making my own decisions. I am happy with the ones I have chosen, and if any member of ANY religion tried to tell me I was wrong, show me the light, etc., no matter how well-intentioned, it’s still insulting because it suggests they know better than I do, that they have some kind of special insider knowledge, they are privy to some bit of information the others don’t have. And they don’t, all they have is faith – the same as everyone else.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “There is really no difference in any of the major religions in the world in terms of how they get their messages out.”

            I guess you’ve missed the Islamic “evangelization” recently? 🙂

            “All think they are correct, and that everyone else is in need of seeing the light. ”

            This is also true of a-theism. For instance, your presence, and the presence of many other a-theists, on this site constitutes a-theistic evangelization. You would not be here unless you thought that you were correct.

            “it’s still insulting because it suggests they know better than I do, that they have some kind of special insider knowledge, they are privy to some bit of information the others don’t have.”

            So, you admit that you are insulting others by assuming you have insider knowledge or superior knowledge? Your position is self-refuting. As another example for why this is not good thinking, I have 4 degrees in engineering and mathematics. Unless you happen to be in that field, I can assure you that I have “special insider knowledge” and am “privy to some bit of information” that you do not have.

            “And they don’t, all they have is faith – the same as everyone else.”

            You do not understand the Christian view of faith: it is a trust that is based on evidence rooted in reality. For instance, if you are in need of a serious surgical procedure, you will research the best surgical experts in that area and pick the one you believe will perform best. When you sign the papers to authorize the surgery, it is at that point you are placing trust in the surgeon you selected.

            That trust is the Christian faith, and should be contrasted with the blind faith that the a-theist has that the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything, that life magically sprang forth from non-life when lightning hit some mud, that minds and morals evolved from molecules through monkeys, that sort of thing.

          • MisterPine

            I don’t support Islamic proselytizing any more than any other kind, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t like the idea of trying to change someone’s mind when they’ve made it up already using their own information.

            “For instance, your presence, and the presence of many other a-theists, on this site constitutes a-theistic evangelization.”

            Incorrect. For one thing, I’m not atheist – agnostic is probably closer to the mark. For another, I’m not proselytizing. I’m not urging anyone to be what I am. People can believe as they want to believe, and I’m not interested in being the poster boy for ANY belief system. Find a belief system that is true to who you are – that would be my advice to anyone.

            “So, you admit that you are insulting others by assuming you have insider knowledge or superior knowledge?”

            No, I never said anything remotely like that. I have no insider information and don’t pretend to. If I were proselytizing some school of thought then you might have a point, but I’m not doing that.

            I think you should have a look at what you THINK atheists believe, specifically that “the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything” – no atheist I know believes this, so you might well be misrepresenting the beliefs of your opponents.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “I just don’t like the idea of trying to change someone’s mind when they’ve made it up already using their own information.”

            And, you believe that view is correct, right, or you would not be stating it? You believe that it is objectively wrong for people to try to change other people’s minds once they have made it up already, right? (Which would mean you would watch someone walk off a cliff if they had made their mind up, right?) Please do not pretend you are not here to share your beliefs, agnostic or otherwise. Everyone has beliefs, and everyone thinks their beliefs are correct, or they would not have them in the first place!

            Here is a quote of yours from above:

            “This is a direct link to some of the comments you’ve gotten, Last Trump, on the page that was created to highlight some of the outrageous things you say from your rather absurd fundamentalist Christian perspective”

            So, you clearly feel you have a superior view to that of “absurd fundamentalist Christians.” What a hypocrite you are to think you do not have beliefs or that you are not sharing them on this site! Once more, you are self-refuting. Your mere presence proves it!

            “Find a belief system that is true to who you are – that would be my advice to anyone.”

            That is only good advice if there are no objective truths. You clearly think there ARE objective truths since you believe that fundamentalist Christians are absurd. Poor logic on your part.

            “I think you should have a look at what you THINK atheists believe, specifically that “the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything” – no atheist I know believes this”

            I actually know full well what a-theists believe, especially as I am a former hardcore a-theist myself. Since the overwhelming majority of (educated) a-theists now (grudgingly) admit that the secular scientific evidence points to the universe having a beginning, premise 2 of the Kalam Cosmological Argument for the Existence of God is conceded by them. That leaves premise 1: everything that begins to exist has a cause. If the a-theist concedes that premise 1 is true, then the conclusion “The universe has a Cause” naturally follows. But, we cannot have that! 🙂

            So, the only place for the scientifically educated a-theist (which I was) to go to deny the existence of God is to refute premise 1. But, then this would mean that the universe popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything, precisely the point I made. Now, as a former a-theist, I was no longer willing to engage in that level of blind faith in myths by throwing away my hard-earned scientific education.

          • MisterPine

            “Please do not pretend you are not here to share your beliefs, agnostic or otherwise. Everyone has beliefs, and everyone thinks their beliefs are correct, or they would not have them in the first place!”

            Is there any point in a conversation where you ask me a question and then accuse me of lying when I answer it?

            As it happens I’m not here to share any beliefs, I couldn’t care less what people think of my beliefs. I am here because I am fascinated by the level of bigotry by Christians on a Christian WEBSITE, especially towards gay people. But even towards your fellow Christians, the Catholics. And I’m constantly trying to find the reason for it, but can’t. It’s baffling.

            “So, you clearly feel you have a superior view to that of “absurd fundamentalist Christians.” What a hypocrite you are to think you do not have beliefs or that you are not sharing them on this site! Once more, you are self-refuting. Your mere presence proves it!”

            Please, don’t jump into a conversation I’m having with someone else halfway and pretend to know what’s going on. Last Trump IS an absurd fundamentalist Christian, this has nothing to do with superiority but the fact that Last Trump flatly denies science and upholds hatred towards homosexuals, among other things. He can’t even type a sentence towards me without including 3 or 4 completely derogatory, childish names. I took his words and didn’t alter them a bit and submitted them to fstdt.com so he could see what it was like to be the brunt of the abuse he loves to dish out so much.

            “You clearly think there ARE objective truths since you believe that fundamentalist Christians are absurd. Poor logic on your part.”

            Logic fail. I didn’t say fundamentalist Christians are absurd. I referred to Last Trump’s “rather absurd Fundamentalist Christian perspective.” Which it is.

            “I actually know full well what a-theists believe”

            Not if you think atheists believe the universe “miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything” – your exact words. No atheist would say anything remotely like that.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “As it happens I’m not here to share any beliefs, I couldn’t care less what people think of my beliefs. I am here because I am fascinated by the level of bigotry by Christians on a Christian WEBSITE, especially towards gay people.”

            Once again, you have refuted yourself. You have shared your belief that Christians are bigoted towards gay people one sentence after you stated you were not here to share your beliefs!

            Think, MisterPine, think: for a man who is not here to share his beliefs, you sure are engaging in a LOT of typing! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            No, I have refuted nothing. Yes, I have absolutely spoken out against bigotry and hatred towards homosexuals by people on this forum. That is not a a BELIEF of mine, however, it’s an observation, one I feel I can make freely without betraying any of my own personal beliefs. You certainly draw strange conclusions.

            Are you saying that if I have a belief, I must share that belief, which then entitles me to lots of typing? I’m not sure I see your logic.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Yes, I have absolutely spoken out against bigotry and hatred towards homosexuals by people on this forum. That is not a a BELIEF of mine”

            Self-refuting. Unless you now saying that you do NOT believe that there is “bigotry and hatred towards homosexuals on this forum?” Of course not! That is most certainly a belief of yours – you have just stated it again. Then, you say “it is not a belief of yours.” Insanity! Absurdity! Self-refutation in the extreme. The New Absurdism.

            Quit pretending that you are not sharing your beliefs. Quit pretending that you are not judging. You most certainly are. You are either very dense or intellectually dishonest.

            “Are you saying that if I have a belief, I must share that belief, which then entitles me to lots of typing?”

            I am saying that if you are doing so much typing, what are you typing about – if not your beliefs?!? Everyone on this site is sharing his or her beliefs – including you. Give me a break. Do not be so disingenuous. You BELIEVE we are all bigots and hateful, but don’t have the honesty to admit it is your belief. What utter nonsense! And secularists think they are rational?!?

          • MisterPine

            Speaking of rational, or rather IRrational, I think I’ve finally determined what you’re asking of me: not to express opinions while here. You are calling them “beliefs” and at first I thought you meant that you were accusing me or proselytizing from an atheist/agnostic perspective. Now I see that nothing’s going to satisfy you apart from me completely refraining from expressing my opinions, or (unbelievably) that is going to somehow make me a “hypocrite”.

            YES there is bigotry and hate towards homosexuals on this forum. YES I speak up against it when I see it. I never “pretended” not to do such a thing. What would you have me do instead, just sit here quietly and let all sorts of unimaginable bigotry simply flow past without saying a word? Are you crazy?

            As for judging, aren’t YOU doing that? Aren’t YOU judging homosexuals based on your holy book? Aren’t YOU supporting the right you think you have to deny them services in shops, etc.?

            Finally, to avoid confusion in the future, avoid using nebulous words like ‘belief” and just tell me what you really think – that you don’t think I should be allowed to express opinions on a public forum. Although that IS one of the most unbelievable things I think I have ever heard someone request. Do you think instead of telling Trump to take his unbelievably ugly and hateful remarks and CRAM them, that I should politely request that he turn his computer off and never turn it on again?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “I think I’ve finally determined what you’re asking of me: not to express opinions while here. ”

            Not at all! I encourage you to share your beliefs. I just ask you to admit that you are sharing your beliefs, that you are evangelizing your beliefs in an attempt to win people over, and that you are judging other people here. I am all for it – every bit of it. What I am NOT for is hypocrites who pretend they are not asserting their beliefs when they are! That is post-modern self-refutation – and is absurdism to the highest degree.

            You are no different, in this regard, than the rest of us: we are all on this forum to share our beliefs and to attempt to change hearts and minds. Quit pretending you aren’t doing it when you are. You are most certainly evangelizing for your worldview, just as we Christians evangelize for ours. We do it because it is our Savior’s last command and because we do not wish anyone to go to Hell. You do it to make the world a “better” place.

          • MisterPine

            I agree with you to a point. I am expressing opinions. It ends there. Everything else you said is an utter crock. If I have beliefs I may express them. I might not. One thing I do NOT do in any uncertain terms is “evangelize” or try to “win people over to my opinion”. Get real. Especially on a Christian website, I mean use your head – as if most of you people could ever HAVE your opinions changed. You’re fundamentalists, most of you. I’d have better luck trying to control the weather.

            I find evangelism of any kind offensive in the extreme and I am NOT doing it. I am expressing opinions and don’t need any instructions from you on the proper way to do it. And couldn’t care less if I swayed your opinions or not.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            OK, I have given you the two reasons why we Christians attempt to win others over to our way of thinking. (evangelizing) Namely, because our Savior commanded it in His last words, and because we want what is best for others, that is, we desire none to be lost and outside of the presence of God for eternity.

            I have asserted that even agnostics and a-theists do the same thing – try to change others’ views toward their own. But, you say “no.” So, then, could you please tell my why you, as an agnostic, are stating your beliefs and / or opinions on a Christian site? In other words, what is your purpose for doing so if not to “advocate a cause with the objective of making a convert,” i.e., “evangelize,” or “win another over to one’s view?” Thanks, and God bless!

          • MisterPine

            Because it’s interesting. Because I am getting a real education here to see the kind of scary things that people calling themselves Christians actually believe. Because I live in Canada where the Christians are much more mellow and even-tempered, and because what I read here is not like any kind of Christianity I have ever encountered in my life.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Because it’s interesting.”

            So, are you saying that you are not interested in changing anyone’s minds here, is that right? You are just here to tell us your opinions of things, like “I like vanilla ice cream more than chocolate?” Why should we pay attention to what you say then? Why should we take your thoughts seriously?

            “Because I live in Canada where the Christians are much more mellow and even-tempered”

            Perhaps most “Christians” that you know in Canada aren’t actual Christians? Maybe they are just a-theists who go to church on Sunday, or cultural Christians who don’t actually believe anything about Christ or the Bible, like so many do here in the US. They call themselves “Christians” but they are indistinguishable from pagans on Monday through Saturday. We see that a LOT here too.

            “because what I read here is not like any kind of Christianity I have ever encountered in my life”

            Perhaps you have never encountered authentic Christians, people who stand up for their faith and don’t cave in to abortion, gay “marriage,” and euthanasia, so that they will be liked by others, like you folks do up in Canada?

          • MisterPine

            Correct. I am not interested in changing anyone’s mind. It’s entirely your choice if you want to take what I say seriously or not. I say them because it gives me satisfaction.

            “Perhaps most “Christians” that you know in Canada aren’t actual Christians?”
            Look up “No True Scotsman Fallacy.” Then ask yourself if it is your place to define who is Christian and who is not. If you’re the anti-Catholic I suspect you are (for so many fundamentalist Christians are) then I find it particularly interesting that you’d tell people who have practiced Christianity for thousands of years longer than you have that they’re doing it wrong.
            I know of no Christians here who are accepting of abortion. I know of many who have no problem with gay marriage or euthanasia. Now tell me how that makes them un-Christian. It has nothing to do with their belief in Jesus, so aren’t you just cherry picking the practices YOUR denomination happens not to like?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “I am not interested in changing anyone’s mind.”

            Haha! Then, you go and try to point out a fallacy! I thought you were not trying to change anyone’s mind – what a hypocrite!

            “If you’re the anti-Catholic I suspect you are”

            What a fool you are! I am married to a Catholic and I attend a Catholic church! Man, you stepped in the do-do there!

            “so aren’t you just cherry picking the practices YOUR denomination happens not to like?”

            I am non-denominational. I am a Mere Christian – accepting of the essentials of all 3 major branches of Christianity. You stepped into it again!

            “I know of many who have no problem with gay marriage or euthanasia. Now tell me how that makes them un-Christian. It has nothing to do with their belief in Jesus”

            OK, try to follow along with me, here, oh self-refuting one:

            Premise 1. Jesus is God.

            Premise 2: The Bible is God’s Word.

            Conclusion: Therefore, The Bible is Jesus’s Word.

            Now, premises 1 and 2 are accepted doctrine (in the statements of faith) by every denomination in the 3 main branches of Christianity (Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox). Therefore, the conclusion must follow. But, this means that every word in the Bible is actually Jesus’ Word (the Bible actually goes further and says that Jesus IS The Word!), so all I have to do is point to verses that refute euthanasia and gay “marriage.” “Thous shalt not murder” handles euthanasia nicely and Romans 1 handles gay “marriage” nicely. (Of course, there are many more verses for both.)

            Thus, anyone who claims to believe in Jesus must accept His Word on these matters or they are actually rejecting Jesus Himself. And, those who take their faith seriously, in the numerous denominations of the 3 main branches of Christianity do just that – they accept His Word. The ones who do not are country club “Christians” and the No True Scotsman fallacy does not apply. I am not determining who is a Christian, God is – through His Word. Those who reject it (think liberals) are by definition ex-communicating themselves from Jesus, regardless of denomination. This is basic Christianity 101. Not surprised that a self-refuting agnostic does not understand it. You are confusing epistemology with ontology. And, by arguing with me, you are most certainly showing your hypocrisy in trying to change my mind! 🙂

            Speaking of Antony Flew, who coined the “No true scotsman” fallacy:

            “I now believe there is a God…I now think it [the evidence] does point to a creative Intelligence almost entirely because of the DNA investigations. What I think the DNA material has done is that it has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements to work together.”

          • MisterPine

            “Haha! Then, you go and try to point out a fallacy! I thought you were not trying to change anyone’s mind – what a hypocrite!”

            How is that trying to change your mind? Like I said, I get the satisfaction, in this case, of proving you wrong.

            “What a fool you are! I am married to a Catholic and I attend a Catholic church! Man, you stepped in the do-do there!”

            Have I really? I did say IF, and you do speak like a fundamentalist. In fact you revealed yourself to be a non-denom, who are often the worst anti-Catholic fundamentalists out there.

            “Thus, anyone who claims to believe in Jesus must accept His Word on these matters or they are actually rejecting Jesus Himself.”

            And you are not? What about “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? What about “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?” And here you are judging as though you are Jesus himself. Using your same logic, you aren’t a Christian either.

            Not terribly interested in what religion Antony Flew practiced. His “No True Scotsman” fallacy is a favourite of logicians, and your whole “if you think/believe/practice X then you are not a Christian” is a perfect example.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Wow! Looks like you are arguing with me – but not trying to change anyone’s mind while doing so! 🙂 What an absurdist you are!

            “Like I said, I get the satisfaction, in this case, of proving you wrong.” In your self-refuting dream world, yes.

            “In fact you revealed yourself to be a non-denom, who are often the worst anti-Catholic fundamentalists out there.”

            Well, you sure were wrong there, weren’t you?!? Nope, I stand firmly with my Catholic wife and brethren: against abortion, gay “marriage,” and euthanasia. Nice to see you defending the Catholic Church, but it kinda undermines your desire to sin via homosexual behavior and euthanasia, doesn’t it?!? 🙂

            “And you are not? What about “Judge not, lest ye be judged”? What about “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?””

            Gosh, it sounds like you are judging me. 🙂 This is more self-refutation on your part. The statement “you shouldn’t judge” is self-refuting, and Jesus does not self-refute. That is what happens when you crop a Bible verse out and don’t read it in context. The proper hermeneutic is “not to judge hypocritically.” Everyone makes judgments every day. You do: you seem to think that gay “marriage” and euthanasia are “good” things. That is a judgment. Here is a small primer on this issue: http://www.str.org/articles/the-judgment-on-judging#.VSsyPfnF_Qp

            Now, keep arguing with me without sharing your beliefs. 🙂 And keep sharing your beliefs without trying to change my thinking. 🙂 I sure hope the Trump is following this. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            “Wow! Looks like you are arguing with me – but not trying to change
            anyone’s mind while doing so! 🙂 What an absurdist you are!”

            That’s because you can’t conceive of a world where you are not proselytizing your faith. Not everyone does that. Clearly you do.

            When it comes to homosexuality I align myself with science and mental health experts, not the Bible, and certainly not any homophobic churches. As for euthanasia, I favor it because I don’t understand the point of needless suffering.

            It isn’t judging to point our to a person that they are judging, just as it is not bigotry to point out someone is being bigoted.

            “Everyone makes judgments every day. You do: you seem to think that
            gay “marriage” and euthanasia are “good” things. That is a judgment.”

            No, once again you are playing with multiple word definitions, as you did before with your “beliefs”. And now you are confusing judgements with the kind of judging the Bible and I are referring to when they tell you to look at your own behavior before condemning someone else’s.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “That’s because you can’t conceive of a world where you are not proselytizing your faith. Not everyone does that.”

            Aaaah – but you ARE proselytizing your blind faith. You are just too much of an absurdist to recognize it! Otherwise, you would not be arguing with Christians on a Christian site. Your words say “no,” but your actions say “yes.” No bigger hypocrite than you. 🙂

            “It isn’t judging to point our to a person that they are judging”

            Of course it is! You are making a judgment that others are judging! Your life is full of self-refutations. Give up your absurdism before it is too late and you end up in a mental hospital.

            “And now you are confusing judgments with the kind of judging the Bible and I are referring to when they tell you to look at your own behavior before condemning someone else’s.”

            More judging from you! 🙂 You cannot help but self-refute. You clearly do not look at your own behavior before judging others, because you are engaging in self-refutational judging!

            “His “No True Scotsman” fallacy is a favourite of logicians, and your whole “if you think/believe/practice X then you are not a Christian” is a perfect example.”

            False. Scotsman-ship is inherited. Christianity is not. Jesus says you are a liar AND a fool – one damned for Hell, as are those who call themselves “Christian” but do not engage in orthopraxy:

            ” “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ ” Matthew 7:21-23

            I pray that you are not indicative of what passes for intellectual thought in Canada, because if you are, that would explain the country’s descent into the moral cesspool of absurdism.

          • MisterPine

            “but you ARE proselytizing your blind faith. You are just too much of an absurdist to recognize it!”

            No. Tell me what I’m proselytizing then. In order to proselytize I would have to have a definite position, which I don’t. And not having a definite position isn’t necessary to point out the flaws in yours.

            No, I’m sorry, you’re wrong. Pointing out someone else being judgmental isn’t being judgmental. Pointing out hate isn’t hateful. Pointing out bigotry isn’t bigoted. You Christians play this game all the time and it’s got no basis in logic.

            “More judging from you!”The problem with you is that you take the definition of a word and try to make all of its definitions apply. That’s intellectually dishonest. Richard tried that the other day with the word “love”. I said two homosexuals are in love, so what’s wrong with that? His response was “what about someone who LOVES to kill, why then isn’t that OK?”

            You’re doing the same thing with the word “judging”. One one hand to judge is simply to form an opinion, and of COURSE we all do that. But that’s got nothing to do with the kind of judging you are talking about which is playing the part of God and deciding for us that we are going to hell. All you are doing is playing silly semantics games.

            “Scotsmanship is inherited. Christianity is not.”

            That has nothing to do with the fallacy itself. You are deciding who is and who isn’t Christian based on practices you like or dislike and nothing more than that.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Are you back to NOT share your beliefs again?!? 🙂 Are you back to arguing in order to NOT attempt to convert?!? 🙂

            “In order to proselytize I would have to have a definite position, which I don’t.”

            But, you DO have a definite position: your position is that you are not sharing your beliefs, you are not proselytizing, that Trump is “an absurd fundamentalist Christian,” that gay “marriage” and euthanasia are moral, etc. All of these are definite positions you hold. And they are all arrived at through the process of making judgments.

            “Pointing out someone else being judgmental isn’t being judgmental.”

            Of course it is! You are making the judgment that someone else is judgmental. This is why Jesus had such strong words for the Pharisees: they were blind hypocrites.

            “Pointing out hate isn’t hateful. Pointing out bigotry isn’t bigoted.”

            No, but they are judgments. You are being just as judgmental as the most absurd fundamentalist – it is just that your are being fundamental to absurdism and post-modernism.

            “That’s intellectually dishonest.”

            Another judgment from you! And you still cannot see it, I am sure. 🙂

            “kind of judging you are talking about which is playing the part of God and deciding for us that we are going to hell.”

            You better take it up with Jesus: He is the One Who says you are going to Hell. (See, e.g., John 14:6) Quoting Someone is NOT playing His part anymore than a person who quotes Plato is pretending to BE Plato. Oh, Canada, my heart so weeps for thee! 🙂

            “That has nothing to do with the fallacy itself. You are deciding who is and who isn’t Christian based on practices you like or dislike and nothing more than that.”

            That has EVERYTHING to do with the fallacy and it is what makes your application of it fallacious. The fact that I could call myself Warren Buffett does not make me Warren Buffett. The same is true for Christians, a-theists, agnostics, Muslims, professional basketball players, Canadians, etc. I drove through Western Canada once many years ago. If I were to call myself Canadian, and you were to deny that, could I also play the false No True Scotsman card because I BELIEVED I was Canadian?!? Of course not! You are being more than absurdist today – you are being just plain silly.

            In a similar vein, Matthew 7:21-23 proves clearly that Jesus feels the same way about this. He is saying in effect “Just because you call yourself a Christian does not mean that you are, and that you are getting to Heaven.”

            Now, please come back and share your beliefs with me while denying you are sharing your beliefs. And please come back and argue with me while denying you are trying to convert me over to your way of thinking. I really need another good laugh today. 🙂 God bless you, MisterPine!

            PS. For your benefit, here are 20 self-refuting claims. See if you can recognize any:
            1. There is no truth.
            2. You can’t know truth.
            3. No one has the truth.
            4. All truth is relative.
            5. It’s true for you but not for me.
            6. There are no absolutes.
            7. No one can know any truth about religion.
            8. You can’t know anything for sure.
            9. You should doubt everything.
            10. Only science can give us truth.
            11. You can only know truth through experience.
            12. All truth depends on your perspective.
            13. You shouldn’t judge.
            14. You shouldn’t force your morality on people.
            15. You should live and let live.
            16. God doesn’t take sides.
            17. You shouldn’t try to convert people.
            18. That’s just your view.
            19. You should be tolerant of all views.
            20. It is arrogant to claim to have the truth.

          • MisterPine

            You can laugh and mock all you like. It’s you who insists I’m trying to convert. I don’t give a damn, I know I’m doing no such thing.

            Stating opinions is proselytizing now? Is that what you’re ACTUALLY trying to float here? Do Jehovah’s Witnesses go door to door to express opinions, or are they trying to win people over? Do you seriously NOT see the difference?

            “Of course it is! You are making the judgment that someone else is judgmental. This is why Jesus had such strong words for the Pharisees: they were blind hypocrites.”

            By using that logic, you would be saying that Jesus was being judgmental himself after telling others not to be.

            “No, but they are judgments. You are being just as judgmental as the most absurd fundamentalist”

            Let’s say I cave in to this absurd semantics game you are playing, what point are you really trying to make? That I shouldn’t be here arguing with you at all since it’s a Christian board? That I’m trying to win people over to some imaginary “side” that you have imagined? What?

            The bottom line is this. You haven’t got carte blanche to float hatred and bigotry here without people calling you on it. When they DO call you on it, your whole schtick is to try to turn it around and make your accusers out to be just as bad. Here’s the difference. You are trying to uphold the right to discriminate against homosexuals and I’m not. You are trying to justify your hatred with your holy book. I have no holy book, and if it told me to do that I would abandon it. Call it judging, call it hypocrisy, call it whatever you want. I don’t care. I’m not going to be shy about pointing out disgusting behavior and I’m not a representative for any group and I’m not proselytizing for anyone.

            “That has EVERYTHING to do with the fallacy”

            The No True Scotsman fallacy is about people trying to define something according to their own opinions. Let’s use the Catholic example. Fundamentalists try to say that Catholics are wrong to baptize infants. I think that’s daft and I disagree, but how on EARTH does this one single practice take anything away from a Catholic’s belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ? Why would baptizing infants make them NON-Christians? You might not like that they do it, but it doesn’t affect that they are what they say they are.

            In fact, what in your opinion MAKES a person a Christian, and what practices do you think invalidate their belief that they ARE Christians? And are those beliefs included in the definition of a Christian as given in the dictionary? This is the crux of the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and that you have fallen so far into it isn’t surprising, but that you don’t recognize it IS very surprising.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            What, are you back again to not share your beliefs by sharing your beliefs? Back to not trying to convince anyone by arguing? 🙂 Well, you are refuting yourself over and over here. I suggest a basic course in logic for you. I praise God you are not designing bridges or planes! Given that this is the state of “intellectual” thought for the new generation of skeptics, I also thank God I converted from blind faith a-theism. I would have no one to talk with at the meetings, because they would all be saying “Don’t take me seriously – I’m not sharing my beliefs!” 🙂

            So, I will merely address two of your silliest claims:

            “By using that logic, you would be saying that Jesus was being judgmental himself after telling others not to be.”

            Of course, Jesus is being judgmental! Everyone forms judgments – why can you not understand this?!? You make thousands of judgments about people, places, and things every single day. Otherwise, you would not have survived this long. Read in context, Jesus says that one should not judge HYPOCRITICALLY. (Speck in one eye, plank in the other.) Is that really so hard to grasp for a New Absurdist? The claim “you shouldn’t judge” is necessarily self-refuting because it is a judgment about judging. Alternatively, it is saying that it is wrong moral behavior to say that any behavior is morally wrong! That’s why Jesus made it clear He was talking about hypocritical judging, which is NOT self-refuting. How many of the other 20 self-refuting statements have you fallen for?

            When you make judgments (as you have done time and time again on this site) and then deny you are making judgments, that is the highest order of hypocritical judging. I am sure you have had this pointed out time and time again by other Christians – even ones in poor lost Canada. (Speaking of which, I refuted your fallacious use of the No True Scotsman fallacy with my example about claiming to be Canadian. Not surprisingly, you didn’t get it. Next, you will wrongly apply Godwin’s Law, if I point out that you are a gay fascist. Just kidding! Or not. :-))

            “I’m not going to be shy about pointing out disgusting behavior and I’m not a representative for any group and I’m not proselytizing for anyone.”

            Now, this is your most egregious error. You are making an objective moral claim (“disgusting behavior”), yet you do not believe in God! You are, in fact, stealing from God to make such a claim. Under your Darwinism view, there are no objective moral values or duties. It’s just survival of the fittest in your world. It’s not merely I who say that, but your “pope” and “cardinals:”
            https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/16/an-atheist-explains-the-real-consequences-of-adopting-an-atheistic-worldview/ You may wish to take it up with them – or debate them. But, you are just dancing to your DNA. Under your view, you cannot objectively condemn slavery or the Holocaust either. And, on top of that, there is a 97% chance you are a pro-abort, sign of a seriously damaged moral compass.

            “In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, or any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference… DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” (Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995))

            I am glad that you are acknowledging God’s existence by making an objective moral claim, but do be sure to thank Him for it! God bless you – with a course in logic! Just kidding! Have a great evening in Canada, motto: “We aren’t the moral cesspool yet, but we are trying our best! Did ya sign up yet for our brand new euthanasia program?!? Discounted rates in the months following the injection.” 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Bet you’re a real smash at cocktail parties.

            I’ve already told you once, I’m not playing your ridiculous semantics games. If you want to confused, twist, distort word meanings, go ahead. I’ve asked you to tell me how I’m supposedly trying to win people over with my opinions (or is it judgments? Or beliefs? You’ve messed it all up so badly I don’t even recall anymore), and you ignored the question. I’ve stated that I haven’t got a dog in this race, that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, and you resort to cheap insults and call me a liar.

            “Of course, Jesus is being judgmental!”

            By saying judge not? How does that work?

            Anyway, you’ve already been told that there are several kinds of judgment. The judging we do on a daily basis is one thing, and judging people to hell is another. You are quite comfortable doing the latter and I find it disgusting beyond belief. So when I state I’m not judging, THAT is what I’m talking about. You, on the other hand, are doing the condemning style of judging, telling gay people that they’re going to hell.

            I can make objective moral claims without a belief in God. I’ve heard you fundamentalists make this ridiculous claim over and over. If being atheist is so terribly immoral, you’d have atheists doing all manner of looting, pillaging and raping, and as you can see with your own eyes, that isn’t happening. God is not necessary for morality. Good morals are learned from our parents, teachers, etc. “Do unto others” is pretty much what it boils down to, and you don’t need God, the Bible, or anything else to make that happen.

            “Under your view, you cannot objectively condemn slavery or the Holocaust either.”

            Of course I can, and do. What part of “do unto others as they would do unto you” do you not comprehend? One person imposing their will on another is abuse, it is not done with consent. Which is why you homophobes never learn that you can’t compare homosexuality with rape, murder, and other things that are not consensual.

            Moral cesspool? Interesting concept, here in Canada where we don’t want terminally ill people to suffer needlessly and allow people who love each other to get married versus you in the US where you have fundie pastors pushing for the execution of gay people, and use their Bibles to justify it. Hm, which one’s the “moral cesspool”?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Bet you’re a real smash at cocktail parties.”

            Haha – yes, love it, good one – you scored there! It’s weird, MisterPine, because you are not the first one to say that. 🙂 I don’t actually attend cocktail parties, because I’m not a drinker. But, I am really fun out in front of the abortion death mills. 🙂

            “By saying judge not? How does that work?”

            Again, please read the whole passage – don’t just cherry pick a few words. “Speck in one eye, plank in the other.” Jesus is not saying to not judge – that would be self-refuting and God does not refute Himself. Jesus is clearly saying not to judge hypocritically. If I were having an affair and then judging someone else who was also, then that would be hypocritical judging. Can you see the difference between “not judging” and “not judging hypocritically?” The first is actually not even possible. It’s not a matter of semantics – it is just reading the Bible in context, like any other book.

            “You, on the other hand, are doing the condemning style of judging, telling gay people that they’re going to hell.”

            When did I ever say that?!? Do you have a need to lie about someone else’s beliefs in order to demonize them? People don’t go to Hell for having gay attraction – they go to Hell because they want nothing to do with God. And God won’t force them into Heaven against their will – He respects their free will choice. I have never said that being gay sends you to Hell, nor have I ever said that the sin of homosexual behavior is unforgivable in any sense of Christian orthodoxy – it most certainly is. You are most correct to say that people, unlike moi, who DO say such things are extraordinarily confused.

            “I can make objective moral claims without a belief in God. I’ve heard you fundamentalists make this ridiculous claim over and over.”

            Actually, you can’t, not without stealing from God. And, it’s not just us Christians who say so – it’s also naturalistic a-theists, like Dawkins, Provine, and Ruse. Did you read the link I provided? It is a pretty good summary of the whole issue – from the a-theistic view. The first guy explains just why you can’t do that.

            “If being atheist is so terribly immoral, you’d have atheists doing all manner of looting, pillaging and raping, and as you can see with your own eyes, that isn’t happening.”

            (No, but a-theists are 97% likely to be supportive of abortion on demand, and that is worse than looting, pillaging, and raping.) More importantly, it should be noted that here you are confusing moral ontology with moral epistemology. Of course, a-theists CAN behave morally, even better than theists in many cases. But, when a-theists behave morally, they are actually behaving counter to naturalism, survival of the fittest. They are stealing objective moral values and duties from the Objective Moral Law Giver, Who is God. You cannot ground objective moral values and duties under naturalism. Rape? Happens all the time in the animal kingdom. Murder? Ever see a lion take out a gazelle? So, yes, a-theists can behave morally – but they are just not behaving consistent with their a-theism when they do so.

            “”Do unto others” is pretty much what it boils down to, and you don’t need God, the Bible, or anything else to make that happen.”

            Wrong, you do need God to give the reason why behaving that way is objectively moral. When the lion takes out the gazelle, he is not “doing unto others as he would have them do unto him.” And, the Bible explains why you and I both agree on many issues of morality: “They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.” (Romans 2:15) This shows that God wrote His laws on our (fallible) hearts. That is our conscience. But, under naturalism, no such thing exists, and certainly no supernatural moral law.

            God bless you, MisterPine!

          • MisterPine

            “But, I am really fun out in front of the abortion death mills”

            You lost me, sorry, I’m not up on my over-the-top hyperbole references. What death mills do you mean?

            “Can you see the difference between “not judging” and “not judging hypocritically?”

            There is no way to judge without doing it hypocritically, according to Christ. Everyone sins (according to his teaching, which I don’t necessarily agree wtih). So who are you to point out someone’s sin without acknowledging your own?

            “When did I ever say that?”

            If you didn’t, I apologize – it’s just that everyone else here DOES say that, and people like Gary would like to see them executed. But you’re likely right and I misquoted you. Mea culpa.

            “Actually, you can’t, not without stealing from God.”

            Actually, I think I can. Morality does not require a God. There is no morality in the food chain, there doesn’t need to be, that is survival of the fittest. As human beings there is no need to kill another human being for food (except in the rarest, direst circumstances). The golden rule might be something theists and atheists have in common, but I would not say it was traceable to any God.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “You lost me, sorry, I’m not up on my over-the-top hyperbole references. What death mills do you mean?”

            Why, the places where 3000+ innocent defenseless human beings in the womb receive their liberal-pronounced death sentences each day in Amerika alone. Some of these places go by the name “Planned Murder in Da Hood.”

            “There is no way to judge without doing it hypocritically, according to Christ. Everyone sins (according to his teaching, which I don’t necessarily agree with). So who are you to point out someone’s sin without acknowledging your own?”

            False. If there were no way to do so, then Jesus, Paul, the disciples, the apostles, the early Church, etc would all be guilty of hypocrisy. God Himself would be terribly guilty, since the Bible (God’s Word) is filled with the history of man’s sins. When you say such absurd things, aren’t you really saying “I don’t want anyone to point out my sins, because then I would feel guilty and I might have to change my ways?”

            “Actually, I think I can. Morality does not require a God.”

            Prove it, and you will win a Noble Prize, and they will replace the “pope” of New A-theism (Dawkins) with you, MisterPine! God bless!

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Sorry, hate to butt-in (oh, who am I kidding? I love to butt-it!), you have no idea what Christ taught, Mr. Pine. You know, because you have so little knowledge of the Bible, remember?

            The Sacred Scriptures have much to teach about how to judge…righteously. For those who actually read them!

            You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.– Leviticus 19:15

            Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. – Proverbs 31:9

            Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. – Matthew 7:1-2

            Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment. – John 7:24

            Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? – Romans 2:3

            For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” – 1 Cor. 5:12-13

            Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. – 1 Tim. 4:2

            So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. – James 2:12-13

            Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. – 1 John 4:1

            Also, why did you limit killing only for food? Why is it wrong to kill to get ahead? To get what you want? To earn a living? Why can’t I steal and kill, if I can get away with it?

          • MisterPine

            Proselytizing is in poor taste, Nick from Detroit.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            I’m not proselytizing, Mr. Pine. I’m proving how much of a biblical illiterate you are, with your ridiculous assertion about Christ and judging.

            You didn’t address your bogus attempt to limit killing to only food. Why can’t you ever answer simple questions put to you?

          • MisterPine

            “you have so little knowledge of the Bible, remember?”

            Seriously? You make a bizarre statement like that and expect me not only to remember it but acknowledge it? My Bible knowledge is just fine. However:

            You’ve been told countless times, Nick from Detroit – seriously, I’ve lost count – how irrelevant your holy book is to me. Even if you were to prove I’d never read a single page of it it wouldn’t matter or be relevant to anything we have to discuss. Now I’ll just sit back and wait for you to bring up the subject of the Bible again. And every time you do, I’ll bring up The Wizard of Oz.

            “You didn’t address your bogus attempt to limit killing to only food. Why can’t you ever answer simple questions put to you?”

            You posted your question about killing for food after about a page of Bible drivel, so I didn’t see it, but if you seriously want an answer, here it is:

            “Why is it wrong to kill to get ahead?” For animals, it isn’t. For human beings, we don’t have the right to take another person’s life because it’s illegal, immoral, and downright ridiculous to murder each other. I can’t believe I’m even having to explain this to you. And no, no Bible or God is required to know these things. Anyone raised with the morals given to them by their parents will know this automatically.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Mr. Pine, if you’re going to insist on making ridiculous statements like, “according to Christ,” and, “according to [H]is teaching,” I’m going to continue to point out that you’re completely ignorant of what the Sacred Scriptures teach, as well as what Christ taught to His Church.

            For human beings, we don’t have the right to take another person’s life because it’s illegal, immoral, and downright ridiculous to murder each other.
            Why? Survival of the fittest says that it’s not.

            Anyone raised with the morals given to them by their parents will know this automatically.

            Wrong. People murder others every day to get ahead or self-preservation. Were they all raised without morals? And, where did these “morals” come from, anyway?

          • MisterPine

            Well, Nick from Detroit, if your ignorance about your own faith means that you don’t comprehend statements made by your own saviour, and it takes atheists and agnostics to point out to you the lessons he was giving, maybe you should try a different faith.

            Survival of the fittest does not mean that human beings can wantonly kill each other in some kind of bloodbath contest. I am genuinely sorry for you that you think this is what atheism leads to. God is not required for us to learn to live together harmoniously. We still love life, in fact I think we love it more than you do since we get one shot at it, whereas you spend all your time worrying about the next one.

            Yes, people murder each other every day. Bet you lots of them are Christians, too. People who murder probably do so without consideration for morals. Your argument goes nowhere…as usual.

          • Nick_from_Detroit

            Well, Nick from Detroit, if your ignorance about your own faith means that you don’t comprehend statements made by your own saviour […].
            Says the guy who was thoroughly schooled on how he violently wrenched Christ’s words of context. Like most S.H.A.M.s do (Secular Humanist Atheistic/agnostic Materialists). You know nothing about Christ, or His teachings, Mr. Pine. But, keep following my comments (obsessively) on Diqus, and you will.

            Survival of the fittest does not mean that human beings can wantonly kill each other in some kind of bloodbath contest.
            Tell that to the Bolsheviks and [email protected], who both took survival of the fittest to its logical conclusions.

            We still love life, in fact I think we love it more than you do since we get one shot at it, whereas you spend all your time worrying about the next one.
            No, you don’t love life, I’m afraid. Which is why Pope Saint John Paul II called this ideology the Culture of Death. He got that from the Bible: If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.

            People who murder probably do so without consideration for morals.
            Yes, most of them do. Because they have no faith, or, have lost their faith.

          • MisterPine

            “Says the guy who was thoroughly schooled on how he violently wrenched Christ’s words of context.”

            According to who? You? That doesn’t carry a lot of weight, sorry

            Also I’m not “following you obsessively,” I am responding. Don’t like my responses? Stop writing your own.

            Bolsheviks and Nazis were political movements, and every single person whom I personally know to be atheist has never harmed anyone else. That had nothing to do with God, Satan or anyone else. It’s part of being a decent human being.

            “Which is why Pope Saint John Paul II called this ideology the Culture of Death.”

            It sure feels like life to me. I can’t say what comes after this for certain and neither can anyone else. But for now, I’m living my life to the fullest. I can’t live it for another life to come which may or may not happen, and I certainly don’t plan to live it in such a way that it makes the lives of homosexuals or anyone else miserable

            “People who murder probably do so without consideration for morals.”

            You know it wouldn’t be difficult to provide you with a list of practicing Christians who murdered.

          • Blessed Woman333

            Baptizing babies doesn’t make a Catholic non-Christian, it is just unnecessary and illogical since Christ already died for our sins which is why he said “It is finished!” We are only supposed to be baptized to demonstrate our own personal convictions to show Jesus is the Lord of our life. Someone else doing it on my behalf doesn’t make sense and can’t be found anywhere in the Bible. I grew up in the Catholic church and attended Catholic school so I have experienced both. I was baptized as a baby when someone else decided for me, but I made the choice for myself later in life to be baptized outside the Catholic church. It was only outside the Catholic church that I was told my salvation was a free gift, not a reward for anything I could do on my own. It was already finished when Jesus died in my place and conquered death on the third day. Search the scriptures and you will find the truth is there.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Not if you think atheists believe the universe “miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything” – your exact words. No atheist would say anything remotely like that.”

            You are correct that most a-theists would not say that, but we are not talking about what a-theists “say” but what they believe. And, as I showed you using Kalam, it most certainly is what most a-theists believe.

            Speaking of which, you have referred to yourself as an agnostic. An agnostic is an individual who is unsure either way about the existence of God. Such a person sees the scales balanced between the No God Hypothesis and the God Hypothesis. So, since you enjoy attempting to refute the Christian perspective on a Christian website, do you also spend an equal amount of time attempting to refute the a-theist perspective on a-theist websites? Because if not, then you would not actually be an agnostic, but instead an a-theist who is not brave enough to admit it. I personally do know some intellectually honest agnostics, but they are a fairly rare breed. If you really are one, I commend you. God bless you, MisterPine!

          • MisterPine

            “You are correct that most a-theists would not say that, but we are not talking about what a-theists “say” but what they believe.”

            I just read that sentence three times in a row, and I can safely say I have no idea what you’re talking about. Don’t most people say what they believe?

            Your understanding of my agnosticism is also in error. Agnostics are not “unsure” of anything. Agnostics believe that where God is concerned IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO KNOW. There is no uncertainty and no inability to make up one’s mind. As it happens, yes, I do occasionally come down VERY hard on hardcore atheists as much as I do on hardcore fundamentalist Christians. No one has all the answers and no one should pretend to.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Don’t most people say what they believe?”

            Apparently not you, because you have been saying a lot but claiming that what you say is not your beliefs. 🙂 The bottom line on a-theism is that in order to answer the question “Why is there something rather than nothing?” the a-theist must assume that everything popped into existence a finite time ago, out of nothing (that’s Big Bang, cosmic background radiation, inflationary universe, 2nd Law of thermodynamics, etc) and uncaused by anything. That is a miracle on top of miracles, and it is what makes the New A-theism truly a blind faith religion.

            “Agnostics believe that where God is concerned IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO KNOW.”

            Self-refuting. To say that it is impossible to know anything about God is to say something about God, namely that He is unknowable. Thus, we can know that, if He exists, it is possible to know something about Him.

            “yes, I do occasionally come down VERY hard on hardcore atheists as much as I do on hardcore fundamentalist Christians.”

            Good for you! I commend you!

          • MisterPine

            “To say that it is impossible to know anything about God is to say
            something about God, namely that He is unknowable. Thus, we can know
            that, if He exists, it is possible to know something about Him.”

            Deeply flawed. You can’t even have a conversation about God without having a common definition of God. This is particuarly problematic when an atheist/agnostic discusses with a Christian, because the atheist/agnostic idea of what/who God is is a lot broader in scope than the very clearly defined God of the Bible which the Christians believe in.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Premise 1: You stated that where God is concerned, it is not possible to know.
            Premise 2: This is equivalent to saying that God is unknowable.

            Premise 3: The statement that God is unknowable is a statement of knowledge concerning God.
            Conclusion 1: Contradiction. (Self-refutation.)
            Conclusion 2: Therefore, God is knowable. (Proof by contradiction.)

          • Blessed Woman333

            I do! One day you will know too when you bend your knee to Jesus and confess that He is Lord! Until then, pray and seek the truth. If you really want to know it and are willing to accept, regardless of the consequences, you will find Him. Most people don’t want to know the truth because it would require them to submit in humility to His will instead of their own. We have all been there at one time so you aren’t alone in that.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Last Trump IS an absurd fundamentalist Christian”

            Another belief that you are so “kind” to share with us! 🙂

            “I didn’t say fundamentalist Christians are absurd. I referred to Last Trump’s “rather absurd Fundamentalist Christian perspective.””

            You would have made a fine spokesman for Bill Clinton when he backtracked on his claim regarding Monica. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Sorry you’re having such a hard time understanding. Last Trump has an odd take on Christian Fundamentalism. Is that better?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            I am not having a hard time understanding – you are. You are completely missing my point, Mister Pine: you are welcome to share your beliefs, even those I disagree with, all you want to on this site. Just don’t pretend that you are not sharing your beliefs and judging other people, because that would make you a colossal hypocrite. The kind that Jesus would not approve of. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            Tell you what then. Point out what you consider to be some of the “beliefs” I have shared, and I will go through them to explain how they are NOT proselytizing. Here’s why I know that to be a futile exercise, my beliefs are very wide open. In MOST matters of faith I don’t know anything and don’t pretend to. If you want to state that my BELIEFS include letting homosexuals receive service from people who have no business denying it to them, fine. THAT is a belief. But it doesn’t relate in any way to my faith or lack thereof.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            What is wrong with you? Here is one of your beliefs:

            “Last Trump IS an absurd fundamentalist Christian”

            Do you really not see what a hypocrite you are?

          • MisterPine

            “Last Trump is an absurd fundamentalist Christian” is not a BELIEF. What is wrong with YOU? It’s an opinion made based on several illogical and ignorant statements. Where’s the hypocrisy?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            So, are you now saying that you do not BELIEVE that “Last Trump is an absurd fundamentalist Christian”?!? He will be most happy to hear that!

          • MisterPine

            He is, and I meant every word. I don’t have a clue what point you are trying to make. I see no reason why I shouldn’t be calling people out when they say absurd things. I am denying that I was proselytizing about my atheism, as you accused me of. In no sense am I here to try to win people over to my beliefs.

          • The Last Trump

            “In no sense am I here to try to win people over to my beliefs.”
            That’s good news. Cause around here, we find hate unattractive.
            MR.FSTDT.COM.

            For those who have never seen a website designed specifically for hate and intolerance I urge you to check out MisterPine’s website fstdt.com
            where intolerant liberal lowlife’s actually gather (well, two or three of them) to ridicule comments they submit from public forums. That’s it. That’s the purpose. Good times! (If you’re twelve, a fascist and a m0ron 🙂
            Again, that’s fstdt.com where haters go TO HATE! Don’t be a stranger!
            Tell them MisterPine sent you and let your hate flow TODAY! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            That isn’t my website, Rumpy. It’s been around for years and it exists because of people like you who deny evolution and think your Christian Faith gives you the right to hate homosexuals. Read the comments though by all means – if you’ve ever wondered why the rest of the world gets annoyed with fundamentalists of any stripe. Look up LAST TRUMP while you’re there!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Premise 1. “Last Trump is an absurd fundamentalist Christian” is a belief that you have stated on this site.
            Premise 2. Yet, you say you are not sharing your beliefs on this site.
            Conclusion 1. Contradiction. (Self-refutation.)
            Premise 3. The only reason to state your beliefs on a Christian site is to win people over to your view.
            Premise 4. You are stating your beliefs on a Christian site.
            Conclusion 2. Therefore you are evangelizing your beliefs (to win people over to your view), as we all are.

          • The Last Trump

            Love the conversation!
            “He is..he isn’t…what the hell is he?” 🙂
            For the record, The Last Trump IS a faithful fundamentalist Christian.
            There is simply no other kind.
            MisterIntolerance, however, lays claim to the “absurd” as I’m sure you are already well aware. Stalks Christian websites to scold others about tolerance (!?), promotes and supports hate machine websites while crying “hate! hate!” when you disagree with him (!?), and seriously believes that NOTHING created EVERYTHING (!?).
            Ahh these silly kids today! What are you gonna do! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re also a closet case who lives out his childhood rejection by being a homophobic bigot. Don’t forget to tell how your father’s rejection helped you become the mess you are today. Full disclosure helps explain why you are the angry, impotent little troll we see today.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s right, hater. Let your rage out.
            Let everybody here see the “real” Parque.
            Sticks and stones! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Shake those fists impotent little man! Stomp those feet! Maybe daddy will notice you!

            LOL

          • MisterPine

            Cute Rumpy. “Nothing created everything” is your twisted view of what evolution means, and it’s a strawman supreme. I don’t believe that and neither does any other scientifically minded person, and so you’re being dishonest with that one…no surprise there. I would have thought that on your fan page on fstdt, com you would have learned by now by the comments that no evolutionist believes that.

            I don’t stalk this page. I peruse it as you do, marvelling occasionally at what passes for Christian beliefs and teachings these days. Beliefs such as yours where every atheist is a baby killer, every homosexual is a pedophile and a predator, and gay marriage must be stopped at all costs because it just affects your OWN life so much, doesn’t it?

            As for the website fstdt.com, you keep calling it “my” website and I have had nothing to do with it apart from contribute some crazy quotes to it, which just happen to be attributable to you. It’s been there for years and serves a valuable purpose apart from entertainment. It’s very important to see how Christian teachings are being mutated into hate and ignorance.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            This MisterPine is killing me with his absurdism! I cannot even get around to defending your Christian orthodoxy, because I can not get him to admit that when he calls you names, he is expressing his beliefs!

            I hope I get the chance to defend you, but if not, for the record, I personally have seen nothing you have written that has come even close to falling outside of proper Biblical hermeneutics, and, by contrast, have seen tons that express Christian orthodoxy in a Gospel-centered sense. So, I do not get where they are coming from, except that the men want to lie with men and the women want to lie with women, and Christians are supposed to only express their faith in a broom closet, and we are supposed to affirm such pagan beliefs as these to make them feel better about themselves. Because FEELINGS!

          • The Last Trump

            Trolls like Pine aren’t the slightest bit interested in discussion or debate. These hypocrites break their own rules that they have imposed on us, seeking out Christians to harass about their beliefs while crying “live and let live”!

            They are condescending and arrogant and try to forcefully impose there low moral standards on others. I have done my very best to be civil in the face of such shameful behaviour. But I have taken my fill. And I am so very tired of seeing good Christians get bullied and intimidated by complete m0rons who falsely claim to have “science” on their side to beat down Christianity. Unfortunately, many Christians are not informed enough to competently defend their faith. So they are easily silenced by fools who make wild claims and assertions. If I serve no other purpose here, I will boldly speak out to defend Christianity and remind all Christians that we have the truth, and that history and science confirms it.

            And thus, I will embarrass and shame the fools who peddle their illogical nonsense here while attempting to embarrass and shame those who actually have the TRUTH. I expect none of these trolls to “repent” or “convert”. I hope only to support and inspire other Christians to speak boldly for Christ as well, and never again feel belittled or intimidated by fast talking fools without knowledge.

            Like evolution. What a fantasy! And yet many Christians are afraid to confront it because it is so vehemently referred to as fact. I struggled with it myself at one time, trying to incorporate it into the Creation account, because I was dogmatically told it was so. Until you actually look into these “facts” and discover they’re a little short. By 100%!

            Which wasn’t at all surprising as the theory (and not even a very good one at that) completely contradicted what we can all very clearly see all around us. Clear and complex DESIGN. And with intelligent purpose. Like male and female with reproduction in mind for procreation. And when actual science refutes the ridiculous claims of evolution by proving with laws of probabilities the sheer impossibility of randomness and chance accounting for our universe and life itself, the case is closed.
            Or the fact that DNA is actually an information code that had to created by an INTELLIGENCE. Ahh, but evolutionists do not like it when you bring actual facts to the table. They prefer to speak in generalities at all times as they’re a little short on substance.
            So I make a comment or two, embarrass and shame those who are deserving when appropriate, and more often than not, move on. I try not to feed the trolls too much because, really, attention is what these poor misguided souls are after. Nothing these sad and lonely miscreants enjoy more than regular correspondence! But every once in a while, if I get bored enough, I’ll make one of these pests my pet project and give them a taste of their own medicine, before moving on again, particularly if I regularly see them harassing several Christians on this forum. Eventually, enough is enough from these fools. And they earn for themselves some TRUMP time! 🙂
            Keep up the good fight, WGC! And thanks for your support here. Much appreciated! 🙂

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Yes, you too, The Last Trump – quite good stuff you present! The thing about Darwinism is that it isn’t even good religion or myth – it is so patently false. If it were just Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, well, it might be OK. But, it is a dangerous myth that has led to eugenics, the Nazis, and, arguably, abortion and euthanasia. Once people lower themselves to the level of the animal kingdom (AK), well, anything goes now, doesn’t it? Rape? Happens all the time in the AK. Murder? Ever see a lion take out a gazelle? So, if it were just a nice bedtime fairy tale, that would be one thing, but it is arguably the most dangerous myth created by man – at least in the past couple of hundred years anyway. God bless, Trump!

            Oh, and if the trolls on this site think YOU are a hater, have them stand out in front of an abortion mill sometime and listen to what the Dark Side has to say to those on the sidewalk trying to save babies. They will return to this site and call you Mother Teresa. 🙂

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, it’s funny how these people on the wrong side of right lose their freakin’ minds and act and speak so violently and irrationally when you simply don’t stand with them in their immorality and take the opposite position. That’s reason enough to know all you need to know about their “morality”.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Well, when it comes to a-theists (and fake “Christians”), there is no ground for objective moral values and duties. Anything goes in their world. They are merely performing according to their job description, following their father of lies and death, and rebelling against the God of Life and Truth.

          • Blessed Woman333

            Why are you spending your valuable time stalking Christians on this website? You really need to get a life!

          • MisterPine

            To see why people pretending to be Christians feel the pressing need to hate.

          • davidnrobyn

            “I must be careful to note that not ALL Christians are guilty of this, Catholics and Episcopalians and Lutherans and others are respectful and keep things to themselves. But the “evangelical” brand of Christian sees it as his mission to turn as many of THEM into US as possible.”

            Your observations are correct, MisterPine. The reason is that evangelicals take the Word seriously, those you approve of do not.

            Q: If you don’t take the Bible seriously, how can you call yourself a “Christian”? Those are the source documents.

          • MisterPine

            Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians DO take the Bible seriously, I know this for a fact, I’ve attended all three services at one time. What you’re saying is your denomination is correct and the others are wrong. Which is why so few people take Christianity seriously these days, you can’t even find common ground amongst yourselves anymore.

          • davidnrobyn

            I can’t speak authoritatively for Lutherans and Episcopalians, but I was raised a Catholic, and I can tell you that the Bible is not their ultimate authority, in the same way that the evangelicals hold it to be their only rule of faith and practice. However I do know (and you should too) that there was a great shift in the doctrine of mainline seminaries in the late 19th–early 20th centuries which resulted in the modern evangelical movement as a breakaway. This evangelical movement was nothing more than efforts to preserve the high view of scripture which had historically been the rule but was now being abandoned–by Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians and other mainline denominations. It’s a fact that these have been steadily shrinking in membership since the ’20s while evangelicalism has been growing. Why? Because they have nothing to offer but platitudes and do-gooderism. You can get that at any community service organization, such as the Elks or Rotary. Evangelicalism offers the Bible. That’s a huge difference, and people searching for answers realize it.
            BTW–why are you spending so much time and effort at a Christian news website?

          • MisterPine

            I was raised Catholic as well, and left it, not because it was Catholic, but because I realized I could not be a Christian because I couldn’t believe the Bible was the word of God but the word of human beings. But one thing I’ve observed since then is the amount of misconceptions that fundamentalist Christians have about Catholics. I’ve heard them all by now – Catholics don’t believe the Bible, Catholics worship Mary, Catholics worship statues, Catholics think good works alone get them into heaven, Catholics baptize babies which is unbiblical, Catholics worship the pope. All of it complete crap, all of it refuted by any Catholic to tell it to.

            The point is, Catholics DO value their Bibles, even if it’s not their sole authority (church teachings and sacred traditions are the others). And those who criticize Catholics have taken sacred traditions and church teachings and simply discarded them, on no one’s authority but their own. Makes no difference to me, as I disbelieve all of it, but how interesting to tell the people who were Christians for so much longer that they are doing Christianity wrong.

            Why am I spending so much time and effort at a Christian news website? Is that what this is? Most of the news stories seem to focus on the perceived “attack” of Christians, which I would say is not the case when you dig a little deeper. Or the stories focus on homosexuality or “apostasy” (more of those wicked evil Catholics again). Doesn’t seem to me to be a Christian site, it seems to be a site dedicated to persecution.

    • The Last Trump

      Sort of like forcing people to support SSM, huh? No need to harass and “convert” anybody Pine. Take a chill pill bud.

      Let’s see now, how did you put it?
      “How about just letting them choose what to believe, if anything?”
      Wise words Pine. Wise words.

      Too bad you can’t seem to follow them.
      Just leave all the Christians alone.
      Say NO to Christian stalking. Say NO to hate. 🙂

      • MisterPine

        This is a direct link to some of the comments you’ve gotten, Last Trump, on the page that was created to highlight some of the outrageous things you say from your rather absurd fundamentalist Christian perspective:

        http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107579
        http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107571
        http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107552
        http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107551

        It’s rather interesting to see how people unanimously ridicule you for your laughably stupid remarks.

        • The Last Trump

          That’s it? That’s really all you’ve got? Fstdt? Still? Nothing more?
          Disappointing.
          Not surprising. But still, disappointing.

          You’re an embarrassment here, Pine. Everybody sees what you’re all about, pal. Hypocrisy, hate and intolerance. You even have a website devoted to it that you just can’t seem to stop promoting! And while the intellectuals are conversing, all you have to say, repeatedly, is “fstdt.com! fstdt.com!” Stutter much?
          Sad. 🙁

          • MisterPine

            What’s really a delight is to see them tell you all the same things you know you’ve ignored from me so many times in the past.

            http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107571

          • Parque_Hundido

            That’s an awesome website. Thanks for sharing!

          • The Last Trump

            You’ll fit in just fine. Enjoy. 🙂

        • Denise Miller Rorabaugh

          Count me among the absurd MisterPine! Better than where your mind appears to be. You seem quite opinionated yoursel, including a strong disdain for Christians when you spend your time mocking Christians on CHRISTIAN sites. I will pray for your salvation and call it even! Jesus died for you as you are.

          • MisterPine

            All right, then, you’re among the absurd. I don’t know what it is with you supposed “Christians,” you could be helping the needy and the poor and doing charitable acts as Christians are supposed to do, but no, it’s far more important to you to lash out and discriminate against homosexuals whose activities don’t affect your life at all.

          • Blessed Woman333

            What makes you think I have done anything to discriminate against gays? The gays I am friends with or work with would tell you otherwise. They don’t care that I am Christian just like I don’t care that they are gay. We treat each other respectfully instead of forcing our views on each other. I would participate in any type of event with them except one that conflicts with my religion. I wouldn’t expect my Muslim friends to attend anything I might invite them to that contradicts their views either. Diversity and respect doesn’t have to mean agreement with everyone else.

      • Ambulance Chaser

        Who is forcing who to support same-sex marriage?

    • Anonymous

      If people told me they will pray for me, invited to church and then gave me a book about someone from my faith or lack thereof converting to Christianity, I’d do the following:

      1- Be thankful to that person because he or she has me in his or her thoughts.
      2- I can politely decline the invitation to go to church.
      3- I can politely reject the book is being given to me.

      I wouldn’t just say that person is forcibly trying to convert me.

      For what I know about the story both the Christian woman and the Muslim woman talked about their faiths peacefully and cordially. But the Muslim woman thought that just because she was given a book and invited to church it was all part of plan to convert her. For me that’s ludicrous and it just tells me no matter if someone wants to discuss religion/atheism with one, one must be careful ’cause that person might misunderstand everything and take things badly when they’re not.

  • Rose

    At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, either in repentance now
    or at the day of judgement

  • The Last Trump

    “a disciplinary panel declared Wasteney guilty of “bullying and harassment,” stating that she was WRONG (!?) to pray with her co-worker, invite her to church and give her a book about her faith.”
    ?
    THIS is bullying?!!

    The Christian despising liberal left strike again. Guess we ‘ll have to add a few more lines to the EVER growing list of “taboo” and unthinkable things that CHRISTIANS are not “allowed” to say according to the thought and speech police.

    “Excuse me, would you like me to pray with you?”
    “Would you like to go to church with me?”
    “Would you like to read this book?”!!!

    WOW! WHAT A BULLY! The HARASSING TERROR of it all!
    Clearly, a great crime has been committed here. Uh huh.
    “Would you like” = Hate speech. What a bunch of m0rons.
    If only she had invited her co-worker to participate in experimenting in a samesex relationship, or a pro choice or climate change rally.

    None of this would have ever happened.

    • Paul Hiett

      If you think that’s really how it happened, I’ve got some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.

      • 1joe_blow

        *

      • jmichael39

        sell it to yourself….you have utterly no evidence whatsoever that it happened any differently than described in the article. But, of course, being a hate-filled bully, trolling around Christian news sites to demean and belittle people who believe differently than you is all cool in the world today. ^5 Paul…you proved yourself an a$$ once again.

  • Elat

    so when we cannot even have a discussion anymore about faith with a co-worker without being sued I think we’ve reached a state of tyranny. What normal person would sue a co-worker for this and what court would support it? How about this muslim women TALKING to her about whatever she/he feels?? The world has gone mad. This is INSANE.

  • smbelow

    This proves that the UK has given into Islam; being that Christian proselytizing of any kind is forbidden in Islam and punishable by death in a purely sharia controlled country. Not really surprised with the outcome.

    I’ll pray for you UK. I’m pretty sure that I’m safe at this distance.

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      Don’t be too sure: sadly, we are not too far behind them. God bless!

  • MEP1101

    We are seeing prophecy fulfilled before our very eyes, We are living in the time of the “End Time’s anti-Christ” and soon “secular” (Marxist) governments will attack and try to destroy all religion, starting with Islam, but their main target will be Evangelistic Christianity. But then Jesus will intervene. In the mean time Christians must boldly and zealously share their faith and strengthen one another.

  • Trevor Thomas

    This, after the UK Prime Minister said in his Easter message that the Church is “not just a collection of beautiful old buildings,” but a “living, active force doing great works right across our country?!!!”

    The two greatest threats to liberty in the world today: liberalism and Islam. (See: “Two Shades of Dismay: The Perverse Bondage Wrought by Liberalism and Islam”—http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com/2015/03/two-shades-of-dismay-perverse-bondage.html) The UK is terribly corrupted by both.

  • Frank

    Those people on the tribunal should not have the job they have. They are clearly not mentally capable to do their job.

    • Bill

      why? because ruled against this stupid *itch?

      • john ruby

        Yes Billy, the “employment tribunal” are glaringly foolish. Even a simpleton can see they have just discriminated against someone’s race, for …. (wait for it) … supposedly doing the same to another…
        Its all about sheep’s and goats … ay Billy… 😉

        • Bill

          she should of kept her faith to herself. if she wants to spread the “good word” then she should of become a missionary

          • john ruby

            Bill, this is about a persons eternity. Every Christian is compelled to show compassion and share the gospel of salvation. This is not about joining a church or a religion, this is about lives and your eternity.
            If it offends, then let the person know. They will respect your beliefs.
            Bill, the Bible teaches about only two destinations after death; heaven or hell. And the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. It costs you nothing, this is not about your money or your works or joining a religion. Its simply about “asking Jesus to come into your life”. That’s it! And if it offends, then you have a smorgasbord of “other ways” to lead you elsewhere.

          • Bill

            Keep. Your. Mouth. Shut. no one wants to hear your BS so respect their wishes and shut up.

  • Roy

    God Bless you… Jesus told the disciples to preach the gospel to all

  • nevergiveup

    Pathetic. While governments are busy legalising and /or ignoring so many things that are quite frankly evil, they nitpick when someone prays for someone else and shares their faith – on their lunch hour! This woman has got more courage than most Christians, the majority of which never share their faith.

  • Richard

    We serve God, not man. Good for her for sharing the gospel. Jesus is happy about that even though the deniers aren’t.

  • Paul Hiett

    There’s more to this story than is being reported on in this “article”. There’s no way it unfolded the way it is currently written, and based on other stories I’ve read on here, omitting information is commonplace. I would bet she was warned first, and I would also bet the Muslim lady told her to stop long before she ever complained.

    • http://www.mustardseedyear.com/ Jason Wert

      Proof?

      • Paul Hiett

        You don’t find it just a wee odd that Nawaz hasn’t been quoted once? The ONLY side we’ve been presented with is a clearly slanted viewpoint.

        • davidnrobyn

          Paul–you’re cutting the government and the muslims way too much slack. In my experience, what was reported in this article is exactly the way it happened. What’s NOT reported (since you’re so suspicious) is probably this:

          Nawaz probably let some male members of her family know that she had this relationship with a Christian coworker, or they discovered the book she’d been given. They then ordered her in no uncertain terms that she’d better file charges and NEVER have any more to do with the Christian lady. She, being a dutiful muslim woman, and terrified of her male relatives (and possibly the local mullah), did exactly as they said. And you can bet that she was NOT allowed to speak to the news media about it.

          I had a friend who was an aid worker in a muslim country who was assassinated (two bullets in the mouth) after sharing her faith with some ladies who came into the clinic where she worked. Victoria Wasteney got off easy.

        • http://www.mustardseedyear.com/ Jason Wert

          That’s not proof.

    • nevergiveup

      Yes there is more. According to The Telegraph (definitely not a Christian publication). of the eight charges against her, 5 were found to be unsubstantiated. The three that were upheld are as follows: praying with the colleague (after the Muslim lady approached her with health problems and gave Wasteney permission to pray for her), giving her a book – not a Bible – a book and inviting her to church events. Wow – what a criminal Wasteney is. Funny thing is – if she did that in some Muslim countries she may have been arressted or worse. Religious freedom in majority Christian countries is not reciprocated in most Muslim countries.

  • antonio

    Shame Enya Nawaz, can’t hold on to her own false faith …. she had to go and squeal or gossip to other about the truth …..brittish leaders and the queen are demonic , file , despicable slime ….. they are so piss scared !!!!

    • Paul Hiett

      Imagine if you had a Muslim boss, and he prayed for you at work, and gave you a book about a Christian converting to Islam.

      • ter ber

        I would be thrilled. I would thank God for setting up the opening to listen, dialogue and witness to my boss. No one should be afraid of defending and having open conversations with anyone. I would share with them the true mediator between God and man is His Son Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But satan must do everything in his power to close down freedom of speech, and to put in everyone’s heart the sin of “taking offense” at everything good and righteous.

        • Paul Hiett

          Do you not understand that the work place is not the format for such a discussion? Furthermore, this is a “manager”, whom the Muslim reports to. Can you really, fully appreciate the position she put her subordinate in?

          • ter ber

            Do you really want speech stifled? She wasn’t inviting her over for a block party orgy. She could have just said not interested. Now if her boss fired her for it you report it. Even women in the workplace had to refuse the bosses for sexual advances for decades. Again if you get fired, you have a cause. Wow. Tribunal! No jury of her peers in England.

      • Richard

        How about having an atheist try to convert a Christian to the atheist faith?

        • Paul Hiett

          There’s no place for that in the workplace, at all.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      What I’m getting from your semi-coherent ranting is that you believe Ms. Nawaz should just allow illegal proselytizing to continue, even if it makes her uncomfortable? Why?

  • Ambulance Chaser

    Why didn’t Christiannews interview Nawaz for this story?

    • Paul Hiett

      Oddly enough, I can’t find any story about this in which her comments appear. Who knows.

      • Ambulance Chaser

        I don’t know either, but I definitely feel like we’re not getting the whole story. Irresponsible journalism.

        • Peter Leh

          i don;t think this is suppose to be a journalist site. I gave up on reliability here.

  • Just_A_Thought_79

    Americans, take heed. This is the nonsense that liberals are pushing into everyday life in America. The focus now is not being allowed to speak out and say that homosexuality is wrong, but soon it will be like this, where even mentioning the name of Jesus will get you condemned at work.

  • RobL

    The stupid Brits are going to lose the battle. The battle for their heritage, and their rights as British citizens to celebrate their history, their government, their beliefs, their faiths. The Muzzies have taken over, and will continue to do so until the Queen herself is required to wear a Burqha, or be beheaded.

  • Kate Frederickson

    Good Christian would have told that muslim to bug off! When they first spoke to them.

  • Josey

    Matthew 10:24-31 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
    25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as
    his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how
    much more shall they call them of his household? 26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
    27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
    31Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

  • Anni Mock

    Matthew 24:9-10 King James Version (KJV)

    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

    10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

  • Jackie Puppet

    What part of “St. John” does Nawaz or the employer not understand? Or the tribunal, for that matter?

    It’s not a secular, Muslim, or Jewish name.

    The center ought to change the name if it’s not going to support Victoria.

  • Bolvon72

    9 months with pay? WTF.

  • Sean Stout

    England is now Englistan. Congratulations all you milk toast liberals that have sold out your country to political correctness.

  • Gersa

    Muslim have come to me, not in my work, but outside for prayers, even I tell them my faith is Christian, they want me to pray for them, for there family even for their kids! Something that at first really surprise me. So I believe this story 100%; and all of them had been females. So I think this Muslim woman was harass by her family and did the complaint.

  • colormontage

    I don’t understand how this could be upheld when the Christian woman didn’t know the rules of the islam religion, I’m not about to read their coran to be politically correct, that would be against my Christian beliefs.

    In fact some US pubic schools had the Christian girls wear hajabs so they knew how they felt, put one on my kids head after reading this there WILL be a lawsuit!