Christians Counter Pagan Prayer to Wiccan ‘Goddess’ Before Iowa Legislature

IowaDES MOINES, Iowa — A number of Christians countered a pagan prayer delivered on Thursday before the Iowa state legislature by a local Wiccan priestess.

“We call this morning to God, goddess, universe—that which is greater than ourselves to be here today,” Deborah Maynard, 43, a Unitarian Universalist and the leader of the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans, opened her invocation. “By the earth that is in our bones and centers us, may all here remember our roots and those whom we are here to represent.”

“We call this morning to spirit, which is ever present, to help us respect the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. Be with this legislative body and guide them to seek justice, equity and compassion in the work that is before them today,” she continued. “Blessed be, aho and amen.”

Rep. Liz Bennett (D-Cedar Rapids) had extended the invitation to Maynard, and told the Associated Press that she “met with some people on both sides of the aisle just to let them know that the invocation or the prayer Deb will be offering will be very inclusive.”

But approximately half of lawmakers chose to skip out the invocation because they did not wish to join a witch in prayer, and the Family Leader organized an alternative Christian prayer gathering at the capitol as a counter to Maynard’s presence.

“We feel that this is completely out of sync with the traditions of our state and our nation to seek guidance from the occult,” Michael Demastus, pastor of Fort Des Moines Church of Christ, told reporters. “We believe it is just not a good idea.”

He said that as Maynard spoke, “I was praying for her salvation. I was praying that she would come to know the one true God.”

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Reike Plecas of I Believe Radio was also present. He said that he didn’t see the alternative prayer gathering as a protest as much as a joining together to pray for Maynard’s soul.

“As a Christian, I have to stand in faith for her salvation and pray for her. Not pray against her, but pray against principalities and more so for her salvation,” he told the Muscatine Journal. “I personally don’t believe that Christians came here to stand against the Wiccan priestess. I believe that we came here united to stand for her salvation.”

Rep. Rob Taylor (R-West Des Moines) decided not to leave the room, but to turn away during the moment.

“I thought to myself, ‘What would Jesus do?'” he stated. “Jesus would be in the chamber from my perspective. He would passively protest and then He would seek that individual out and have a peaceful conversation with them about why His way was the best way, and so that is what I did today.”

Taylor says that he approached Maynard later and extended an invitation to speak with her about Christ.


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  • Paul Hiett

    Tolerance, eh?

    • Tony Phillips

      Troll

    • https://www.facebook.com/rinoabelle Belle Sevilla

      Hello again ^_^ um I have a question Mr. Paul, what if you see one of your brothers, whom you love was blindly walking towards a cliff, you know what will happen to him right? so what will you do? will you let him fall and die or will you call out to him to stop him on his tracks and gently lead him away from the cliff? Of course you will say you will do the latter right? Right you are and that’s what we are doing ^_^ love you my dear friend , seek GOD instead and try to get to know HIM , you’ll know what we’re saying. Peace be with you ^_^

      • Paul Hiett

        I can see the cliff. The cliff is there for everyone to see. The cliff is not a metaphor, but a very real, very tangible thing. I can see it, touch it, walk on it.

        Stopping someone from walking off a cliff is a far cry different than trying to convert them because you believe your religion is correct.

    • Tj Evans

      How can you speak of tolerance, its you sir that has no tolerance.

      • Paul Hiett

        I have no tolerance because I think everyone’s religious belief should be respected?

        Huh?

        • Tj Evans

          Then you should, by your own words, respect the Christian belief.

          • Paul Hiett

            What part of “I think everyone’s religious belief should be respected” was unclear to you?

          • Tj Evans

            Then you do respect the Christian faith, wow, thats not what I’m seeing.

          • Buttercream Princess

            It’s one of those everyone must believe this, everyone must be force to do this, everyone must accept this, kind of attitude. He doesn’t see how that is detrimental to this country.

          • James Matthew

            Good gravy, you are just proving his point.

            The problem isn’t that they skipped the prayer the problem is that they accused the Wiccan of being less than American.

            See the quote: “We feel that this is completely out of sync with the traditions of our state and our nation to seek guidance from the occult.”

            This is just like in the old days when Catholics and Jews were told this is a Protestant country and they should shut up and know their place because our nation had a Protestant heritage.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m merely pointing out the hypocrisy of the Christians who A) did this, and B) those of you who support this.

            If an article came out that people did this during a Christian prayer, are you going to honestly tell me you wouldn’t be lamenting the disrespect being shown?

          • Buttercream Princess

            I can honestly say that. People disrespect Christians every day and try to force them into things that go against their beliefs. How is today any different?

          • Paul Hiett

            Today is different because today the Christians showed their intolerance.

          • Buttercream Princess

            How is it intolerance? Because they didn’t agree and didn’t participate? Were you there claiming intolerance when tons of people were picketing a pizza place because they hypothetically wouldn’t cater a gay wedding?

          • MC

            Well at least you don’t believe Christians shoould be forced against their beliefs to provide services to gay celebrations.

          • The Last Trump

            The part where you bash Christianity day in and day out on the Christian website where everybody knows you as an LGBT troll.
            That part, m0ron.

        • Buttercream Princess

          Except for Christians right? You sure are busying jumping on the blame wagon over these Christians choosing not to participate in something against their religious views.

          If there was a big bbq to represent the beginning of the session and they served steak, porkchops and ribs, should those religions who choose not to eat pork, cow or meat be forced to eat it or can they simply not participate. Even turn away and not be a part because their religious views believe that it’s not right. It’s not different. No one should be forced to be a part of something.

          • Paul Hiett

            Even Christians, Buttercup. All religions should be respected, something you and your fellow Christians seem to have a hard time going yourselves.

            There’s absolutely nothing wrong with you sitting quietly while someone from a different religion gives a prayer. You don’t have to partake…just sit there quietly until it’s over, something you expect of others all the time.

          • Buttercream Princess

            No I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t sit there and be a part of it. I also wouldn’t expect anyone else to. If they felt the need to leave the room so be it. Freedom OF religion.

        • FoJC_Forever

          You, nor anyone, can “respect” the Truth, while pandering to any other or every other belief system in the earth. You are deceived and are deceiving others.

        • The Last Trump

          Not even close, buttercup.
          I have not seen one post of yours out of the trolling THOUSANDS that defend or support Christianity in any way. We all know very clearly why you are here. Your own hateful and intolerant posts convict you.

    • Sam Thompson

      At least there wasn’t a court case over it.

    • MC

      It showed great tolerance and respect , she wasn’t banned, her “prayer” wasn’t interrupted, and the Christians gave the same option they would give an atheist or a person of another religion, the option of not being a part of it. That is TRUE freedom of religion.

      • Paul Hiett

        Other than the people who did stay and rudely made a show of turning their back on her.

        • MC

          Is it a requirement to face the person? An atheist would have the same option.

          • Paul Hiett

            And you’re going to tell me that if the situation were reversed, Christians wouldn’t be screaming about the intolerance and disrespect being shown?

            Really?

          • MC

            We already know the intolerance and disrespect by people like you.

          • Paul Hiett

            That wasn’t what I asked.

          • MC

            Yes, that is what you asked. We deal with intolerance and disrespect, threats of fire bombing our businesses, death threats, threats of shutting down our businesses, forcing us to provide a service we don’t provide for, have our first admentment rights stomped on, etc. by YOU and people like you. We don’t see you any different than the Nazis or ISIS, you just haven’t had the guts to kill us, yet.

        • MC

          Where in the video did it show people turning their backs on her?

  • Jack Campbell

    Huge respect for Rep. Rob Taylor

    • Paul Hiett

      How is showing disrespect for another religion something to be respected for? I see you Christians constantly bemoaning the lack of respect towards your religion, you claim you’re being persecuted and bashed…and then you pull things like this?

      • Tony Phillips

        There was no disrespect shown. Disrespect would have been interrupting the lady while she did her invocation or walking out in the middle of her invocation. That is the kind of tactic pulled by the Left, not by Christians. They chose to do their own prayer, which did not interfere with what was scheduled to take place. Like it or not, you have nothing to complain about here and are just trolling to complain over nothing. Get over yourself and your Leftist hypocrisy.

        • Paul Hiett

          What’s wrong with just sitting there silently, like Christians expect everyone else to do?

          • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

            Do not speak for us christians.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re just evil.

          • MC

            How is she evil?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Deaf. Intolerant. Unwilling to learn.

            Need more?

          • The Last Trump

            “Deaf. Intolerant. Unwilling to learn”
            Your motto? 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Look! It’s my little stalker! He’s an angry impotent little man who was rejected by his father and now feels the need to live out his childhood trauma by being a homophobic bigot.

            I’d prefer a more interesting stalker.

          • The Last Trump

            WHO MisterPine?
            Nah, he’s harmless. Like many intolerant hateful bigots, he comes here to spew his hypocrisy and restrict religious freedoms while…
            Well, look who I’m talking to! I don’t need to tell you! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Trump is in love with me. True to his 12 year old emotional self, he is currently stalking me. It’s kinda sad, kinda gross.

          • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

            The same thing could be asked about them to.

          • Paul Hiett

            They were the ones giving the prayer that day!

          • Buttercream Princess

            Where are Christians saying that everyone must pray and be a part of church and prayer meetings just because they are? Christians tell others about Jesus because they believe that He is the only way to Heaven. They tell others because they want them to go to Heaven too. It’s the persons CHOICE to listen or not. If someone got up and started preaching in a way that made you uncomfortable would you just sit there and listen to it so that no one thinks you are being disrespectful?

          • Paul Hiett

            No one asked them to pray, it was simply a matter of showing respect to another persons religious belief…something you folks demand of everyone else.

          • Buttercream Princess

            You are just trolling because you are angry.

          • AmericanCITIZEN

            Agree. Don’t feed this guy and he’ll go away. Atheists aren’t interested in a decent discussion. They just prefer to hate what they don’t even believe in.

          • Paul Hiett

            Hate? I don’t hate Christians. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy in the actions I see from you.

          • AmericanCITIZEN

            You are issuing a blanket statement to include all Christians. There are true Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians. Don’t confuse the two.

            Last I heard, I still have a few rights left in this country. And even if I didn’t, I would not participate in something I don’t believe in. Just as you would not participate in Christian prayer, I will not participate in pagan prayer. Nobody would try to force you to stay during a Christian prayer. You speak of Christian intolerance like you have none at all. That is not the case.

            Your hatred of Christians is a personal problem. It is not my problem or anyone elses. If you didn’t hate Christians, you wouldn’t rail against them they way you are doing now. If you are interested in a true discussion, fine. If not, that is your right, as well. I’m not going to engage you any further, though, if all you want to do is argue.

          • Andrew

            there’s always room for one more hypocrite Paul.

          • Andrew

            quite the contrary Paul..Nobody stopped the satanic priestess from engaging in her folly…they left her to her depravity and prayed elsewhere. WE demand nothing of anyone, because we know that is futile..we merely desire not to be included..is that too much to ask?

          • Paul Hiett

            Satanic? See, this is disrespect I am talking about. She’s Wiccan, not a Satanist, but you choose to insult her beliefs all the same.

            The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

          • MC

            No, this is one of the MANY reasons you’re ignorant and obtuse. As Christians, ANY prayers that are not going to Jesus, IS satanic. Just because she doesn’t believe she’s satanic is irrelevant. Go read the Bible and see how satanic the pagans are. If you respect our religion, like you lied and said you did, then you would have no problem with this fact, that paganism is an abomination to the Lord.

          • Phipps Mike

            you obviously know NOTHING about Wiccans or their religion.

          • MC

            “Wicca (English pronunciation: /ˈwɪkə/) is a ***modern pagan, witchcraft religion.*** It was developed in England during the first half of the 20th century and was introduced to the public in 1954 by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant. It draws upon a diverse set of ***ancient pagan***and 20th century hermetic motifs for its theological structure and ritual practice. The word witch derives from Middle English wicche, Old English wicce (/ˈwɪttʃe/) (feminine) “witch” and wicca (/ˈwɪttʃɑ/) (masculine) “wizard”.”

          • Phipps Mike

            you posted a definition that you pasted. Do you KNOW any practicing wiccans personally? I do. They see the 4 elements as their higher power. Satan is not even IN their religion.

          • MC

            Anyone who’s not worshipping the one and only true God of the bible is worshipping Satan, whether they know it or not. It doesn’t matter what or who they think their worshipping, they are being deceived by Satan, they are putting Satan above God as a god. They are of their father the devil.

          • Phipps Mike

            I dont see how: “Many wiccans refer to mother earth as Gaia and some do not even acknowledge the archetypes of the God”, qualifies as false idolatry. “Mother Earth” is the 4 elements.
            Also, there’s a hole in your claim. If you don’t KNOW Christianity, the sin is NOT THERE because you have to KNOWINGLY do a sin for it to BE a sin. Ignorance of God is NOT a sin.
            My point is that Wicca is a PURE religion based on NATURE. Native Indians have much in common with Wiccans in their beliefs. Satanism and Wicca are in NO way connected.

          • MC

            Any prayers not given to the one and ONLY true God of the bible is given to Satan, whether they know it or not. It doesn’t matter if one “knows” God or not, everyone who is born is born with the sin nature, and only Jesus can offer salvation. Are you saying non Christians who commit murder aren’t committing sin? Your argument is based on ZERO logic and fails. Wicca and ANY religion that’s not Christianity is of the devil, and the people practicing these false religions belong to their father the devil.

            Do not have other gods besides Me. (‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭3‬ HCSB)

            ‘You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor practice divination or soothsaying. (‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭26‬ NASB)

            Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness, (‭Isaiah‬ ‭44‬:‭25‬ NASB)

            ‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God. (‭Leviticus‬ ‭19‬:‭31‬ NASB)

            ‘Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them.'” (‭Leviticus‬ ‭20‬:‭27‬ NASB)

            “You shall not allow a sorceress to live. (‭Exodus‬ ‭22‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. (‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭15‬ NASB)

            But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭8‬ NASB)

            There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. (‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭18‬:‭10-12‬ NASB)

          • Phipps Mike

            first lets get the stupidest thing I have ever read out of the way:
            ” everyone who is born is born with the sin nature,”
            if you don’t know its a sin…IT IS NOT A SIN. You have to knowingly sin for it TO BE A SIN. Thats what “free will” is all about. You really cannot be THAT stupid to think otherwise.

            If you dont know something is a rule, then you break the rule, its not the same as sin which is a PURPOSEFUL act. Key word here? PURPOSEFUL.

            ” Are you saying non Christians who commit murder aren’t committing sin?”

            no, I am saying that he who does not know something is a sin and commits it is NOT sinning. Show me ONE person on the planet that does’nt know that murder is wrong.

            ” Wicca and ANY religion that’s not Christianity is of the devil, ”
            wrong, wrong, wrong.
            The devil only exists in Christianity and Satanism. No other religion recognizes the devil.

            “Do not have other gods besides Me”
            “mother earth” is NOT a God.

            “‘You shall not eat anything with the blood”
            that’s been rendered null and void. We are allowed to eat meat now, genius. The only good vegetarian is a dead vegetarian.

            ” Making fools out of diviners”
            nobody needs to, they are doing pretty good at that task all by themselves when they try to appoint THEMSELVES as Gods with their judgmental condescension’s.

            “‘Do not turn to mediums or spiritists”
            Wiccans are neither, Christians ARE when they claim to SPEAK to God as if they are really hoding a true conversation with him. Faith healers are the biggest crock on the planet.

            “You shall not allow a sorceress to live.”

            thou shalt not Murder….remember?

            “or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell”

            no different than a Christian saying they know Gods intents on TODAY’S issues that didn’t EXIST back when the Bible was written. As far as casting spells, when you try to “deprogram” a gay, that is the same as trying to cast a spell. Attraction is NATURAL and you cant “deprogram” natural.

            Really? is that the best you can do?
            There is NOTHING wrong with Wicca. it is a INNOCENT, pure and LOVING religion with no patriarchy.
            Newsflash. God was not and never WAS a “man”. He was and is a spirit with NO Parts, therefore cannot be deemed a man.

          • MC

            So, your argument is, as long as you don’t know you’re sinning then you’re sinless? So there’s people walking around who are sinless like Jesus even though he knew what sin was? Also, you do know my argument comes from Christianity, right?

          • Phipps Mike

            lets make it simple.
            Parent of 3 yr old Johnny: “johnny? why did you get into the cookies without asking?
            Johnny: “I didnt know I was supposed to ask”

            did he sin? No.
            As humans, we have an inherent sense of right and wrong AS we age and learn.

          • MC

            Yet again you are arguing from a humanistic perspective not a Christian perspective.
            If you argue from an humanistic/atheist perspective then you make it up as you go, right and wrong is subjective. The Christian perspective of the sin nature is,

            “Answer: The sin nature is that principle in man that makes him rebellious against God. When we speak of the sin nature, we refer to the fact that we have a natural inclination to sin; given the choice to do God’s will or our own, we will naturally choose to do our own thing.

            Proof of the sin nature abounds. No one has to teach a child to lie or be selfish; rather, we go to great lengths to teach children to tell the truth and put others first. Sinful behavior comes naturally. The evening news is filled with tragic examples of mankind acting badly. Wherever people are, there is trouble. Charles Spurgeon said, “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

            Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me. (‭Psalms‬ ‭51‬:‭5‬ HCSB)

            There is certainly no righteous man on the earth who does good and never sins. (‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7‬:‭20‬ HCSB)

            If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬ HCSB)

            So again, we are all sinners, we are born with the sin nature, if you’re not born again you belong to your father the devil. And remember, the unforgivable sin, which is sinning against the Holy Spirit by rejecting Jesus because the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus.

          • Phipps Mike

            yes, we have a natural inclination to sin. However, babies are INNOCENT. The logic you are using is not only contradictory even to the Adam and Eve story, but its SICK when you call babies, sinners.
            When God put adam and eve into the garden of eden, he gave them their rules. if they were to break them. then and ONLY then would he cast them out. It wasnt until they ate from the fruit of knowledge that they sinned. The verse you posted says that a sinner is a sinner even before they have a brain? how stupid is that? (Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me. (‭Psalms‬ ‭51‬:‭5‬ HCSB)
            Mere EXISTENCE is NOT a sin. A sin is an ACTION that is against gods rules. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
            While on one hand you make SOME sense, on the other, you sound like a deluded “Jesus freak”. That’s a term that was given to weird mentally unstable bible thumpers in the 70s.

            You might inherently sin and have to be taught to DO right, but you don’t KNOW its a sin until you are TAUGHT its a sin.
            Without the Bible, NOBODY knows that certain things are sin.
            Your premise that just existing is a sin is PURE LUNACY.
            You constantly keep bringing up the Devil in every response. Are you that paranoid? really? The Devil has VERY LITTLE to do with ANYTHING.

          • MC

            Babies are sinners but babies don’t go to hell. By the way, my argument comes from the bible FROM the Adam and Eve story, that’s how sin entered the world in the first place and how we got the sin nature.

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            You can call me a Jesus freak all you want but that’s irrelevant to the truth, because you’re irrelevant, especially to me.
            Now, the reason you’re having a very hard time understanding something so very simple is because you know nothing of the Gospel and spiritual matters, you are being deceived by your father satan. Now if you think talking about satan is paranoia and that the devil is not real, that’s part of your father satan deceiving you. At this time in your life satan rules your life. It’s your free will to believe it or not of course. And calling me names doesn’t change the truth.

          • Phipps Mike

            “Babies are sinners”
            you should be FLOGGED for even saying that. I do hope you are not a parent as your children suffer your abuse daily if you do have children.
            As far as I am concerned, you are WORSE than a child molester for even saying that.
            I DO know the Gospel, I was brought up a Protestant Baptist. I believe in God the creator but the Bible is only PARTLY true. I don’t know what quack religion you are going by, but ANY religion that attacks babies needs to get off our planet.
            You should watch Children of The Corn. It IS correct. Babies do not sin until WE teach them to.
            My father in law is a Lutheran pastor and he would probably see you as pitiful. He is very forgiving but once he heard that you accuse innocent babies of things, he would lose his patience.

          • MC

            You should have stayed awake when you were a baptist then you would actually know the sin nature of man as this is Christianity 101. Like I said, you know nothing of the Gospel, but do me a favor, ask your father in law what the sin nature is. Ask him if we’re all born with the sin nature, are you man enough to do that? If he’s preaching the true Gospel then he’ll back up my argument. And then you can flog him and call him a child molestor. Deal?

          • Phipps Mike

            I didn’t dispute that we have sin nature. Its the premise behind that we are not Gods perfect humans as he intended. I am disputing that a sin is defined in the way YOU are using it. Sin is a PURPOSEFUL breach of Gods rules, that is an undisputable fact. I didnt call you a child molester, I said you were WORSE than one if you attack INNOCENT babies with the nonsense you have written. Did you SPANK your babies for crying when they were hungry? better yet. did you spank your wife’s fertilized egg before it even developed a brain for developing without permission (referring to that verse you posted about conception). a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands. That’s a DUH moment. I hope you realize that all the people in here that read what you wrote just discredited all of your future posts.

          • MC

            No, any Christian who knows the true Gospel of Christ KNOWS we are conceived and born in sin. Now don’t be afraid and ask your father in law. I can’t wait to hear what he thinks of you after you flog him and say he’s worse than a child molestor.

          • Phipps Mike

            hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            I also said:
            “I didn’t dispute that we have sin nature. Its the premise behind that we are not Gods perfect humans as he intended”

            now its time for you to read the DEFINITION of sin since you cant seem to understand what it is:
            “If we sin through ignorance, it is not accounted to us as sin, “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” James 4:17. “And the times of this ignorance God
            winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he
            hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in
            righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given
            assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” Acts
            17:30-31.

            Jesus Himself fully endorsed such a concept. “Jesus said unto them,
            If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see;
            therefore your sin remaineth.” John 9:41. “If I had not come and spoken
            unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their
            sin.” John 15:22. “

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants.

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants.

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants.

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants.

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants. You can’t declare checkmate when you’ve already lost the game.

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants. You can’t declare checkmate when you’ve already lost the game…

          • MC

            “hello? did you even read what I said?
            “a fertilized human egg CANNOT SIN as it has NO conscious or even a brain, nor feet nor hands.”

            Again, for the millionth time, *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8).

            Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned- (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ NASB)

            So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ NASB)

            Why are you having a hard time understanding this? We are paying the price for Adam’s sin. The baby doesn’t have to do anything, because the baby is paying the price for Adam’s sin. The curse was on Adam and his descendants, and we are all Adams descendants. You can’t declare checkmate when you’ve already lost the game.

          • MC

            “LUTHERANS ADMIT THEY’RE BAD TO THE BONE
            Instead of denying original sin, Lutherans receive God’s power to overcome it.
            Leaf through the hymnal Christian Worship, and you will see an ecumenical potpourri—gleanings from all different Christian bodies of all ages. Music and wording is borrowed or adapted from Roman Catholics, Methodists, the Reformed, Evangelicals, and Episcopalians.

            But on the first page of the Common Service, you will find something uniquely Lutheran. In the confession of sins we admit that we “are by nature sinful” (p. 15). Most Christian churches include some form of confession in their public worship. But outside Lutheranism, people confess only sins they have actually committed. Lutherans alone admit to being bad to the bone. We know that we have a sinful flesh, an innate sinful nature for which we bear guilt
            and liability for punishment.

            The hymnal is not the only place you will notice this difference. I have seen tel-evangelists thump their Bible on all points of law. But not once have I heard them quote St. Paul’s confession: “I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature” (Romans 7:18). This confession is also strangely absent in the Christian pop literature in Evangelical bookstores.

            Dramatically important

            What’s the big deal about admitting that we are sinful to the bone? Isn’t that a minor theological detail that can be left to ministers to debate? Won’t even the thought of original sin make the everyday Christian less optimistic about his ability to lead his life for God?

            Lutherans do not judge the relative value of Bible teachings on
            the basis of personal analysis. Our Savior commissioned us to teach people to obey everything he commanded us. In other words, if it’s
            in the Bible, it’s important.

            Original sin, or original depravity, is not an obscure teaching. The Old and New Testaments give ample witness to the reality that sin adheres to our bones. God sent the great flood because the “inclination of the thoughts of [man’s] heart was only evil all the time” (Genesis 6:5). King David confessed the origin
            of his sins of adultery and murder: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). Jesus put an exclamation point on the Old Testament teaching of mankind’s depraved nature when he told Nicodemus, “Flesh gives birth
            to flesh” (John 3:6).”

            “The study of Christ, or the study of how Christ is connected to and through all of our doctrine is called Christology. To be Lutheran is to see everything through Christ who died for forgiveness. ***To be Lutheran means that you realize your sinful nature,*** you see yourself as purely dead in sin, incapable of doing anything. This lack of capability is also significant to what it means to be Lutheran. Dead people can’t do anything, and thus we fully rely on Christ who makes alive that which was dead.”

            “Sin

            Sin is lawlessness, that is, breaking of God’s commandments (1 Joh 3:4). Because of Adam’s disobedience, man was separated from God (Gen 3:23-24; Is 59:1-2; Rom 5:10; 8:7-8), died spiritually (Gen 2:17), and was sentenced to physical and eternal death (Gen 3:19; Ezek 18:4; Mt 13:40-42; Mt 18:8; 25:41; Joh 3:17-18; Rev 20:10-15). *********Because of Adam’s original sin, all human beings are conceived and born in sin, sinful by nature, spiritually dead and blind, and are under God’s wrath and condemnation************** (Ps 51:5; Rom 1:18; 5:12; 5:18; Joh 3:36; Eph 2:1-10; 2 Co 4:4; Joh 6:44; Rom 8:8). Because they are spiritually blind and dead, human beings do not have a free will to choose God or things spiritual. They have free will to make choices in the things of this world, but not concerning the things of God. Only by God’s grace are they able to believe. Lutherans teach that apart from Christ all sin is equally damning – one sin is not worse than another in terms of its damnability (no mortal and venial sins). For the sake of clarity they do distinguish between original sin (the corrupt sinful nature) and actual sin (the specific sins committed) on the one hand, and sins of commission and sins omission on the other.”—Lutheranism

          • Phipps Mike

            once again, I didnt dispute our sin nature. I dispute YOUR gross misinterpretation of that verse. We are born sinners, yes, but we are not born sinning. Know the difference? That passage is meant to convey that it is impossible for us NOT to sin. Its not saying that babies sin. I would have hoped you had enough brains to figure that pathetically simple equation, out.

          • Andrew

            Satan by any other name is still Satan.

          • Phipps Mike

            The Wiccan goddess is NOT satanic. Wiccans believe in mother nature as the “power”. The high priestess’s are not considered as a person with powers nor as any type of messiah.

          • Karen Hollenbeck

            Not when it contradicts what we believe. No person is “forced” to listen to our religious beliefs. We demand nothing but to be free to practice our faith. Respect for the Christian believer is getting less and less.

          • Andrew

            While they sit there and bash Christians for speaking about their beliefs, they’re the ones that shout at the top of their lungs, and demean every Christian..even going to far as to heckle them while they sit in prayer. The hypocrisy is astounding. Christians are being slaughtered across the globe and there’s no lack of persecution in America, yet they bemoan Christians for standing for their faith regardless. In the meantime, Christians do nothing to stop others from engaging in their own depravity. They’re not suing anyone, they’re not chopping people’s heads off, and they’re certainly not calling them names and demeaning them. Instead, they simply continue to remind them of the obvious outcome of their behaviour and rebellion towards God and refuse to call sin anything other than sin and enable the sinner, partaking in their folly..and THAT gets everyone’s panties in a bunch…

          • Andrew

            The world is pissed off because we remind them there is a hell waiting for them and they don’t like that.

          • Buttercream Princess

            Also, again, they did not get up and leave. They just weren’t a part of it.

          • Karen Hollenbeck

            We are not to be partakers of others sins, that is why. 1 Timothy 5:22

          • elisabeth

            to sit there silently and listen to that garbage would be to participate in it, are you that blind?

          • Phipps Mike

            my father in law is a Christian Lutheran Pastor, we have an atheist friend who will be joining us for a dinner soon. Grace is always said before we dine. Are you suggesting that our Atheist friend should stand up and naysay my father in laws belief in God during the prayer? Think before you answer.

          • elisabeth

            you are talking about two whole different things, your father n law chose to have an atheist over for dinner, the atheist chose to go to dinner with your father n law, knowing that he is a christian. that is their choice in a private setting. this article is about Christians who choose not to partake in evil with a witch they obviously dont want to know either way and shouldnt be forced into it.

          • Phipps Mike

            huh? forced into it? Did she ask them to repeat, bow their heads or say amen? I dont think so. You also assume that all but her in there were ALL Christians. Not so: “A number of Christians countered a pagan prayer delivered on Thursday
            before the Iowa state legislature by a local Wiccan priestess.”

            a NUMBER. not ALL.

            my reply to you was specifically about: “to sit there silently and listen to that garbage”

            so really it doesn’t matter the venue. According to your general and sweeping statement. All atheists should be allowed to NOT sit there silently.
            Prayer doesnt belong in the legislative room anyway. Right on the walls inside the Des Moines statehouse, there is a saying etched into the walls: “Law is a SCIENCE”.

            Not only are laws not allowed to contain religion, but it IS a science.

          • elisabeth

            i didnt assume anything, you assume that i think atheist should be forced to listen to Christian prayer, i never said that. you didnt like my answer because it made sense. therefore
            you attack me with false assumptions about the way i think.
            let me ask you this……how do you think hitler got a nation to

            participate in the attempted extermintion of whole race of people? oh and think before you answer.

          • Phipps Mike

            once again…your words: “to sit there silently and listen to that garbage would be to participate in it”

            the part that is NOT right: “would be to participate in it”.
            That is ABSOLUTELY 100% wrong and wreaks of your personal belief that you should FIGHT against others who don’t see it YOUR WAY. That’s childish and ridiculous.

            Silence means being NEUTRAL. Do you know the definition of neutral? its something you use for DIPLOMACY (letting others believe what they WANT to believe).
            Hitler was able to do that because he had a personality LIKE YOURS. (where everybody is suppose to share YOUR same beliefs ie..Christianity)

          • elisabeth

            and who are the haters here? sounds like you are full of it.

          • Phipps Mike

            really? I just told you that I am a very diplomatic person. That courtesy is always there until I get around a person who condescends towards others who dont do the things they wish them to do. aka. you and nobody else have any right to expect people to have only YOUR religion.

          • elisabeth

            then why are you harassing me for voiceing my opinion if you are so diplomatic?

          • MC

            Is that freedom of religion?

          • Paul Hiett

            Oh, they’re perfectly free to get up and leave, as they did. They have the right to turn their backs on her too, as some obviously did.

            It doesn’t make them any less intolerant or disrespectful though.

          • MC

            I didn’t see anyone get up and leave, and I didn’t see anyone turn their backs on her. What video were you watching?

        • Jack Campbell

          I can’t stand the whole right vs left. It’s like saying one is always right and the other is always wrong. In this case your missing the fact that it was the left who invited her and it was the right who were quite to allow her to speak. Move away from the labels, it limits your mind into new ideas that can come from both sides, It screams hate speech as well when either side uses the term right or left to define the actions of a group of people. In this case we are respecting the fact that not everyone is Christian, and you know what that ok. Jesus would love someone no matter who they are.

          • Wingnut

            That’s why it’s called right and wrong… Right is right and Left is wrong… simple 😉

      • https://www.facebook.com/rinoabelle Belle Sevilla

        grace and peace to you mr. paul 🙂 It is out of love we do this things for our LORD JESUS commanded us to love others as HE has loved us. If we see others who are going the other way, we pray for them or of course we talk to them. We are not forcing ourselves on others but sharing our Love in CHRIST , conversion doesn’t come from us, GOD will do this. We only follow what HE said. JESUS is the only Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the FATHER except through HIM. This we know for sure for HE has given us HIS testimony. We want to share our joy with others who are yet to know the LORD. You my friend should get to know HIM too ^_^ I pray that HE may draw you to HIMSELF. If you’re having doubts about JESUS then please do pray and ask GOD for HE will confirm this to you (that I do pray my friend :D) Cheer up , we’re here to spread GOD’s love. Peace be with you ^_^

        • Paul Hiett

          What if someone else is as comfortable with their religion as you are in yours, and simply wants the same kind of respect that you ask for during prayers?

          • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

            Being comfortable is what causes intolerance.You cant respect the unrespectable.Christians were given a duty and that duty we must carry out.

          • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

            Christians do not demand respect because frankly we dont need it.

          • Paul Hiett

            Even at the expense of others?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Ever upstanding American has a duty to stop people like you.

          • The Last Trump

            Good luck. Smarter and much more powerful people than you have tried. And failed.

            Remember when Hitler burned books and worked tirelessly to annihilate the Jews? Yeah, they ended up regaining their ancient homeland after that, just as the Bible clearly predicted they would. (No Israel, no Armageddon, no Second Coming. 🙂

            “For I AM God, and there is no other. I AM God, and there is none like ME. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND AND I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE” Isaiah 46:9.

            Better pack a lunch tough guy.
            Gonna be loooong ‘day’! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Those who supported freedom have defeated many, many dictators and theocrats. We will stand up to you and you will eventually be defeated also.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, YOU defend freedom.
            Riiight.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Yes, I do. You’re welcome.

          • Buttercream Princess

            Disrespect would have been picketing outside the building or even inside the “prayer” meeting. Instead, they chose to not be a part of it. How is that disrespectful? If you don’t like something or agree with it, do you still do it?

          • Paul Hiett

            You do know very well that if the reverse had happened…if some atheists or Wiccans had gotten up and left or turned themselves around during the prayer, you folks would screaming about the intolerance and disrespect.

          • Buttercream Princess

            You must misunderstand the story. The Christians did not get up and leave the meeting. They knew about it ahead of time and simply chose not to be a part of it. How is that disrespectful? Disrespectful would have been making a scene, instead they just weren’t there. As a Christian, I would have prayed silently to myself and still spoke with her later.

          • Buttercream Princess

            It happens every day. Do you see “us folks’ screaming about it all?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, actually, we do. We see you screaming about it every day.

          • The Last Trump

            You’re insane. That has been going on for as long as Christianity has been a part of America. No establishment of any ONE religion, remember? NOT a Christian nation, remember? Your words, dum dum. People have excused themselves from public prayers for generations as they did in schools I attended growing up. But NOW Christians are forcing everybody to convert and screaming about intolerance and disrespect?!
            Please pick a side of your own argument and stick to it.
            Clearly you are here for pointless argument and offer no valuable discussion to any topic. Your intolerance and religious bigotry is glaring. Just keep talking, bud. Every time you do, more and more people see the ugliness in what you represent and are driven into the arms of God. You’re doing God’s work, Paul. Keep it up! 🙂

          • Paul Hiett

            Link to me an article that shows that atheists and those of other religions are walking out of the same prayers.

          • The Last Trump

            ??
            You can’t be serious.
            You want me to link to thousands of common, well known everyday events that YOU YOURSELF have witnessed, like classmates leaving the room in schools during the daily recitals of the Lord’s Prayer??
            You’re a complete fool. Only an idi0t would ask for LINKS for such!?
            Just keep opening your mouth Paul. You do more damage to your cause than anybody else here ever could.

          • Paul Hiett

            “Rep. Rob Taylor (R-West Des Moines) decided not to leave the room, but to turn away during the moment.”

            No, some stayed…and made it a point to be disrespectful.

          • Buttercream Princess

            Turning away is not disrespectful. It’s not being a part of it. Your hatred of Christianity has to find something doesn’t it?

          • http://www.gofundme.com/moving-closer-to-family Terri Geer

            Turning away is called shunning. It is most definitely disrespectful and is not, in the slightest, Christian.

        • Parque_Hundido

          It is not out of love for freedom of religion that you undermine non-Christians. You are un-American to the core.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, ok there “Parque Hundido”!
            Sounds about as American as Barrack Hussein Obama.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Feeling insecure about being so provincial? Did kids call you hillbilly? Did they tease you for being simple minded and socially awkward? More than now?

            LOL

          • http://www.gofundme.com/moving-closer-to-family Terri Geer

            “Sounds about as American as Barrack Hussein Obama.”

            Since Obama is a natural born US citizen, what’s your point?

          • The Last Trump

            Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!
            Oh. You were serious?
            Ooops.

      • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

        That is because we are.Nobody balks against muslim prayers but yet everyone gets so offended when Christians pray.Its called intolerance to the truth.

        • Paul Hiett

          Did you read the article at all? Christians were the offenders in this case.

          • The Last Trump

            “Offenders”!?
            By not participating in the occult!
            You really are insane, aren’t you?
            Must I abort my children too, to avoid ‘offending’ the pro-murder crowd?
            Offenders! Grow up.

          • Parque_Hundido

            They threw a temper tantrum.

          • The Last Trump

            They did, did they!?
            Ok there, Parque. Leaving the room = temper tantrum.
            Interesting how fools think.

          • Parque_Hundido

            There you are, shaking your fists, stomping your feet. You people are all the same – and you don’t seem to be able to learn.

          • Paul Hiett

            Who said they had to participate? As most Christians tell those of other faiths, they should have just sat quietly and respected this womans right to her beliefs.

          • The Last Trump

            Please list examples of “MOST Christians”!?
            Ohh, your biased and hateful opinion AGAIN.
            Got it.

      • smbelow

        But that’s the whole issue of the matter. A Christian should have nothing but utter contempt for ANY other religion which violates the 1st commandment. That’s a given.

        2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
        2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

        Now understand, this has nothing to do with respecting a person; just their belief system. And it is for this matter of uprooting the foundation of the country–allowing every religion to flourish–that the country is taking a destructive turn for the worse.

        • Paul Hiett

          So anyone with a different opinion than Christians are not to be respected, not to be given the same protections, not to be given the ability to invoke a prayer from their faith in a town meeting?

          Is a theocracy what you want?

          • smbelow

            Okay! Please read EVERYTHING that I wrote. Read slow if you have to. Than think about what I was saying. Then if the light of understanding falls on you, please, feel free to construct another questionable point.

          • Paul Hiett

            You’re claiming that allowing other religions to have their say in this country is tearing us apart.

            Is that not what you are saying?

          • smbelow

            Yes! But you rephrased your question by focusing on the PERSON, not the religion.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s just sad. Tolerance of other beliefs and opinions…something you demand of everyone else, btw…is what this country was founded on.

          • smbelow

            It’s called foundational principals. Something you failed to understand with your response above.

            The country is not a theocracy–that’s what Islam is bringing. The country was FOUNDED on Christian principles. Understand the difference.

            PLUS! You need understand that it is ILLOGICAL for the founders of the country to adhere to an idea of “freedom of ANY religion.” Remember! True Satanism calls for the sacrifice of humans. Do you think our founders had that in mind when writing “freedom of religion?”

          • Paul Hiett

            True Christianity calls for the death of quite a few people as well. Do you want to allow that?

            Yes, in this country, EVERYONE can believe in whatever religion they want, and express those beliefs in many different forms of worship, as long as they do not violate any laws or press upon the same rights of other people.

            Simply put, all Americans should show the same type of respect to others that they themselves ask for.

            This is not a Christian nation, it never has been, and it never will be.

          • smbelow

            “True Christianity calls…”
            Really!!!

            “As long as they do not violate…”
            Oh yeah!? And pray tell, what moral code were these laws founded on?

            “…show the same type of respect to others…”
            They’re you go again. Respecting a person is different than respecting the religion.

            “This is not a Christian..”
            you’re using the verb [is]; so, I have to agree with you. However! The country was founded on Christian principles. Just learn how to observe.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you really want me to list all of the things that the Bible demands the death penalty for? I doubt you do…

            If you don’t like the law that says you can’t offer human sacrifices, take it up with the government.

            You demand everyone else respect your beliefs, why can’t you respect their beliefs? Why can’t you respect the fact that everyone in this country has a right to their religious beliefs?

          • smbelow

            “Do you really…”
            Only if you can properly put it in context. 🙂 Remember, we are talking about Christianity; so, you can’t be going off in an ignorant understanding of Levitcal law with out contextually explaining the Christian relevance.

            “if you don’t like…”
            :-/

            “You demand ….”
            Because the beliefs are incompatible. And I’m not making any demands. I’m just saying that Christianity is not compatible with the current world. That’s obvious and scripturally stated.

          • Paul Hiett

            What do you think would have happened in this case had everyone simply sat quietly and respectfully until it was over, something which Christians demand of everyone else?

          • smbelow

            “What do you think…”
            Probably nothing! But what does that have to do with my ORIGINAL statement? All this back and fourth, and my only point is that Christians not standing up to Christianity are breaking the first commandment.

            If a Christian has respect for another religion (not the person), is he honoring the God of the Bible? That’s my whole point in a nutshell.

          • Paul Hiett

            “Respect” and “worship” are two different things.

            You can easily respect someone’s right to believe what they want, and their right to worship as they want, but you don’t have to worship in their faith at all.

            Being quiet and respectful doesn’t require you to worship as they are.

          • MC

            Can you show me verifiable evidence that Christians demanded EVERYONE to sit quietly for opening prayer at Iowa house? No one is forced to be at the opening prayer.

          • Paul Hiett

            Answer the question, please.

          • MC

            I just did, no Christian is forcing anyone to be at the opening prayer at the Iowa house. I’m sorry you don’t understand. But please provide your evidence to the contrary

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m simply asking you what you think would have happened if everyone just sat there and respected her beliefs?

          • MC

            Um, you do know that we’re not under the same judicial law as that of the acient Israelites, right? You are aware that this is America 2015, right? Different time, different country, different laws. Your argument fails.

          • Paul Hiett

            By that logic, you should be supporting gay rights for marriage equality.

            Do you?

          • MC

            Absolutely not, because that is against God’s Moral Law. God’s Moral Law is unchanging, what was an abomination then is still an abomination now, and will always be an abomination in the future. Your argument fails.

          • Paul Hiett

            ROFL…”those laws were for a different time!” “those laws are valid now!”

            Seriously?

          • smbelow

            “ROFL…”
            This kind of statement is exactly how I know that you don’t understand who God is. Not god, but God.

            See…your understanding of god is in trying to base it on a material basis.

            So…seriously! You’re going to think that the God of the Bible is unable to establish objective parameters that never change?

            That’s the danger with your worldview. One day, killing those that don’t except your idea of morals, won’t be a problem.

          • MC

            You really don’t know the difference between the judicial law, the cerimonial law, and God’s unchanging Moral law? Maybe you should take a class in Christianity 101 for dummies? Do you think God changed his mind about murder, adultery, fornication, and child sacrifice because it’s 2015?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            You seem to be of the opinion that because you have chosen to believe that the Bible contains God’s laws, that what is contained in the Bible is definitively true. Quite the hubris.

            You cannot know for certain what God’s laws are unless you are God. Are you God, MC?

          • MC

            I can know God’s Law by reading Scripture. I can gain knowledge by reading. One doesn’t have to be God to read about God, and I’m certain and confident of Scripture. I don’t need your approval of what to believe because you will always be irrelevant to me.

            In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭1-3‬ NASB)

            All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16-17‬ NASB)

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I certainly respect that you believe that to be true. Your believing it is true, however, does not make it true.

          • MC

            And again, your OPINION of what is or isn’t true is irrelevant to me. This is my right to practice my religious beliefs protected under the first amendment.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “And pray tell, what moral code were these laws founded on?”

            I’m not sure if you would call it a “moral code”, but I believe it is: Freedom, liberty, and equality.

            “The country was founded on Christian principles.”

            What Christian principles would those be? Of the 10 commandments, 7 directly conflict with our constitution.

        • Parque_Hundido

          Would you support laws that make it hard for those religions to flourish?

          • smbelow

            Really! You’re asking that question? I dare you to walk through the streets of Dearborn, by yourself, and start reading Christ’s message of salvation.

            THEN!!! Go to a Christian neighborhood and read from the Quran.

            What area do you think you would be the safest?

          • Paul Hiett

            So if one religion is intolerant, it’s ok for your to be as well?

          • smbelow

            If my religion was SO intolerant, then why is the United States (founded on Christian principles) being encroached on by every religion imaginable–including atheism?

          • Paul Hiett

            This is not a theocracy. America is not a “Christian” nation, as defined in the Treaty of Tripoli, something I’m sure you’ve never heard of.

            The constitution clarifies a clear separation of church and state. The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of religion for EVERYONE, not just Christians.

            You really should read up on it.

          • smbelow

            You’re grasping at ignorant straws. You’re using a postmodernist worldview to redefine and obscure historic relevance. Maybe you need to re-read the purposes behind said treaty. It also looks like you need to re-educate yourself on how to define historic elements by understanding the culture at THAT time, not your convoluted postmodern understanding.

            One more thing!!! Please understand, I’m not going to discuss rabbit trail topics.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s funny. You post that the US was founded on Christian principles, but then don’t like to see the facts of our nation’s founding posted towards you. I suggest not bringing it up next time if you don’t want people to respond to what you post.

          • smbelow

            Yeah…but it’s understandable that a person who mentions the Treaty of Tripoli, as being relative to any founding matter of Constitutional importance, is really only ignorant of their history and only espousing weak arguments that others have tried in the past..

          • Paul Hiett

            Valid arguments are still valid argument no matter how many times they’ve been put forth. The Treaty of Tripoli ends any discussion about this country being “Christian”.

          • KenS

            How does a statement in a Treaty signed after the founding of a nation in any way prove anything about the founding of that nation? Really? It was nothing more than a statement in a treaty by a politian to make the other side in the treaty happy so that they would sign it.

          • smbelow

            “It was nothing more than a statement…”
            Wow! So you’re one of those people that remove logical reasoning from a subject because it doesn’t fit your worldview. That goes from ignorant to willfully ignorant.

          • KenS

            Wow! way to attack your own, I was defending you with that, sorry you didnt see that.

          • Paul Hiett

            I laughed.

          • KenS

            Im still pulling the knife out of my back, lol

          • smbelow

            I just revisited your post and was able to slow down to understand what you wrote. Just deleted it….Sorry that you got caught in the cross fire. But these trolls are only able to win (or try) by throwing all kinds of junk at a person. They never stay on topic and they use weak arguments without thoroughly rationalizing the information.

          • smbelow

            Sorry Ken! I’m on a couple cups of coffee and this Paul person is firing illogical statements left and right. It can be kind of difficult to maintain cohesion when your looking at different topical responses.

          • smbelow

            “The Treaty of Tripoli…”
            No! Only with those who want to redefine history.

          • Paul Hiett

            Show me where, in our constitution, it says anything about the establishment of a singular religion in this country?

          • smbelow

            First, you need to define what the founder’s meant by “religion.” This gets into the whole idea of strengthening a young nation and understanding what military hardened men would have been thinking of when using such terms.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you answer the question or no?

          • smbelow

            You have to answer my question first. It’s important to understand what logical framework I’m dealing with.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s a simple question. Where in the Constitution does it define our religion?

          • smbelow

            Mine is a simple question, too. What did the founding fathers mean when they said religion? Kens, has provided a good response.

          • Paul Hiett

            All religions are equally protected. All of them..that’s what they meant.

            Now, where does the Constitution specify which religion is the official established religion of the US?

          • smbelow

            “All religions are equally protected.”
            By this logic, I can not support an argument for Christianity. However, the logic of reasoning would dictate that our founders, when talking of religion, would have established that religious freedom meant the freedom to worship the Christian God as it pertains in the Bible and not to be under the yoke of a Roman Catholic church style tyranny as was in the European countries.

          • Paul Hiett

            Where in the constitution does it say that? I’m looking for proof that our founding fathers, when writing the Constitution, were only protecting Christianity…something I find fascinating considering that they weren’t all Christians.

          • smbelow

            You are using irrational logic. You are looking at the letter of something and not the spirit. With your logic their should be no problem with everyone speaking their language of origin. Seeing that the Constitution doesn’t say anything about what language the country will speak.

            Read the preamble! It is implied. Not only by what is written, but by the support from outside sources.

            “I find fascinating…”
            You mean fascinating like Thomas Jefferson holding church services in the Capital building, even though he was a deist?

          • Paul Hiett

            Now you’re trying to interpret what they were intending despite having no way to prove it. You’re simply conjecturing at this point with nothing to back you up on it.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re just making this up as you go along.

          • KenS

            Thanks, smbelow

          • KenS

            Paul, the founding fathers were very careful to leave out a reference to any religion, because they did not want to see the religious persecution that was happening in America specifically to the Baptist for their belief of baptizing a person again if they were converted from a denomination that believed that baptism was a requirement to be saved. It is clear from the historical and cultural history of the time that the Christian religion was the founding religion of the nation, but the founders did not want one denomination to have control over the nation, and therefore they gave all the denominations of Christianity the freedom of religon from the Government

          • Paul Hiett

            Ummm…they didn’t just protect Christianity…ALL religions are equally protected in this country.

            While the majority of our founders were deists, they were not all Christians. I think you should read up on that aspect of our history.

          • KenS

            I agree they did protect all religions not just Christianity, because they did not want to see anyone treated as they were being treated, but their primary focus was to protect Christianity so that they could spread the gospel to all. They were wise enough, though, to see that in order to do so, they had to protect every religion.

          • Paul Hiett

            That’s right, all religions!!!! We are free, in the US fortunately, that all religions should have equal protection. But it seems some think their brand of religion is better or more important than another, and go out of their way to prove it.

          • smbelow

            No! There were deists, yes. But not the majority. And if the founding of the country wasn’t Christian, why up to about 50 years ago would one find Christian style churches in every city of the country? Why do (did) government buildings display the 10 commandments and the buildings in Washington have mosaics of of the old testament? Why did children in school include “one nation under God” in the morning. Why was there prayer in school. I could keep going if you’d like. For your secular worldview to be true, you would have to support it with the development of the country.

          • Paul Hiett

            I think you should Google about when ‘under God’ was added to the pledge of allegiance. It might surprised you.

            Yes, many of our founding fathers were deists, this is a simple fact. They formed this country granting everyone the same rights to believe what they want, and to be free from the persecution for those beliefs.

            Sadly, Christians think it only applies to their faith, and no one else, as we see by the actions of this council.

            We’ve also seen Christians interrupting Muslim prayers, and even Hindu prayers. Here is yet another example of the hypocrisy of Christians when it comes to the beliefs of others.

          • smbelow

            “I think you should…”
            The idea is that it WAS there.

            Ohhh…now many and not most?!

            You still have to logically explain how our founders would have, at such a tender age, meant that Christianity, Satanism, and Islam were compatible when talking about freedom of religion.

          • Paul Hiett

            It wasn’t there until 1954!!!!!!!!

            And yes, our founding fathers intended that all citizens have the same rights, regardless of what religion they were.

          • smbelow

            Based on whose moral framework?

          • Paul Hiett

            No comment on learning that “under God” wasn’t added until 1954?

            Moral framework? Are you going to now cite the Bible as the source of our Constitution? Spare me the rhetoric…

          • smbelow

            That was just one point I was making of many, which you ignored. So…NO…I’m not going to comment on it. It’s insignificant.

            “Moral framework?…”
            No! But you avoided my question. Laws are created from a moral and ethical framework. You need to be able to establish a moral base for your secular views–without borrowing from the Christian worldview.

          • Paul Hiett

            Of course you’ll claim it’s insignificant, since you had no clue when it was added, and thought it was part of the pledge since day one. You really should know your history before you make such comments though.

            I don’t need Christianity to tell me that murdering is wrong, or that rape is wrong, or abusing a child is wrong, or that stealing is wrong, etc.

            These ideas were part of the fabric of every society in the world, long before Christianity came around.

          • smbelow

            “Of course…”
            The only point I was making was that the pledge contained the phrase. I never hinted to chasing the history of the pledge. And yes, I don’t know everything in regards to history. However! I know enough to understand your ignorance of history.

            “I don’t need Christianity…”
            Of course you don’t. Because your moral understanding of killing and the like has been with you from birth. God has set these things in your heart. The problem is that if you refuse to recognize where they come from, there’s nothing to say you can compromise for some, so called, collective purpose.

            “These ideas…”
            Refer to the response above.

          • Paul Hiett

            Knowing that the pledge was modified in 1954 is an indication that I don’t know my history? Really?

          • smbelow

            No, but your other responses are.

            And what? Knowing that the pledge was modified in 1954 makes you an expert of ALL history. No! I don’t think you know history because of the points you’ve been making; all of them from a postmodern revisionist view.

            My main argument with you is your lack of topical adherence and how you approach a response. You tend to ignore valid points and convolute others . I NEVER stated the date just referenced a part of our history.

          • Paul Hiett

            But when you referenced the Pledge, you did so amongst several “claims” going back to the foundation of this country. Your posting made it appear you thought the pledge part about God was always there, which is incorrect.

          • smbelow

            Paul, I wasn’t sure when the pledge of allegiance was put in the schools and the phrase “one nation under God.” I was kind of typing many different responses and accessing information from my own remembrance. When I posted that, I was thinking of my own time in grade school (70s). I wasn’t thinking of the actual lyrical development. The point was that the phrase did exist, so it was part of the old Country; seeing that the fundamental transformation of the country started around the 60s.

          • MC

            Not to mention they used Scripture to teach children to read and write in schools. An atheists head would implode if we were still doing that.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “why up to about 50 years ago would one find Christian style churches in every city of the country? Why do (did) government buildings display the 10 commandments and the buildings in Washington have mosaics of of the old testament? Why did children in school include “one nation under God” in the morning. Why was there prayer in school.”

            Because Christian’s were the majority and no one challenged them.

          • Buttercream Princess

            What the constitution is saying there is that the Church of England would not be able to control the religious views of the United States or the people in it. It was not saying that religious views were not to be a part of any state. You should look that up.

          • MC

            Yes, it’s perfectly fine to be intolerant of other religions. Do you think it was a good idea to let gay atheist Jim Jones to flourish his cult, Peoples Temple, to pull a murder suicide of 914 adults and children? What about mentally ill hoaxer L. Ron Hubbrd, inventor of Scientology/dianetics that scams people out of their life savings, that won’t let you see family members ever again if their not scientologists? Should we be tolerant of those people and the thousands more like them?

          • Parque_Hundido

            My instinct would be to avoid anywhere that Christians are preaching.

          • smbelow

            Sure…whatever you say, troll.

          • The Last Trump

            And yet HERE you are!
            I’m confused, does that make you a hypocrite or a liar? Or both?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You appear to be obsessed with me. Is this transference? Are you reliving your father’s rejection?

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          “A Christian should have nothing but utter contempt for ANY other religion which violates the 1st commandment. ”

          Why would it be necessary for you to have contempt? The 1st commandment says nothing about that. The 1st commandment puts forth, for those who choose to believe in it, that those believers should have no gods other than the Biblical god. It does not require that followers hold other religions in contempt.

          Is it not sufficient for you to believe as you like? Do you really feel that having contempt for other religions help fulfill your obligations as a Christian?

      • Jean Adams

        Tell me why it matters so much to you to bait Christians? Christians bait no-one merely teach others their faith, if you and others don’t want to accept it fair enough, we tried. We are instructed to try but know much of our teaching will fall on ‘stony ground’
        .

  • Crono478

    I am noticing that many Christians like to ask this question, “What would Jesus do?”. This actually opens to speculation. Answers would be open-ended which would lead us to deviate from Bible.

    We should stop doing this and ask this question: What did Jesus do? This will lead us back to Bible on what it has to say about Jesus.

    • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

      asking what would Jesus do is called following him.That is what Christians do.it is not a deviation.

      • Crono478

        I knew I would receive a response similar to this one. You should be asking: What did Jesus do that we can follow Him? For example, what did Jesus do to confront sinners? I advise that we are to follow Bible rather than thinking what Jesus would do today.

        • smbelow

          Well…he forgave the repentant sinners and told them to sin NO MORE. And although, Jesus did sit with the sinners, he didn’t partake in the sin!!! And I can, with certainty, state that he would NEVER sit idly by while someone was praising a different god.

          • Paul Hiett

            You speak for your deity now?

          • Buttercream Princess

            I agree.

          • Crono478

            Right, that is what Jesus did. Jesus showed sinners the Law which is perfect for converting souls (Psalm 19:7). When they realized that they are guilty of their sins before God, they repented of their sins. Jesus forgave them for that.

            That is also why Jesus told us to seek the God’s Kingdom and His righteousness. This is all in Bible. That is how we know what Jesus did for us.

            We should avoid using questions like, “What would Jesus do?”, “What would Jesus eat?” and so on… Many people become Christians for wrong reasons. I would highly recommend you to read the free and powerful book at this link: http://www.freewonderfulbook.com/pdf/freewonderfulbook.pdf.

    • Parque_Hundido

      I’m curious: what did jesus do when he visited the Iowa legislature?

      • Crono478

        Are you here to troll me on this one?

        • Parque_Hundido

          You trolled yourself.

  • Linda

    Why was a witch invited to pray to the devil in the first place?

    • Paul Hiett

      You mean why was a representative of another religion allowed to give a prayer like Christians have been able to do for years?

      • Elizabeth Marie Balentine

        america was founded on christianity not wiccan in the beginning.Christians are the only ones getting attacked while the other “religions” do the attacking.Your sick to support attacking of christians.

        • Paul Hiett

          Oh yes…someone who has a different religious belief wanted to have a chance to give a prayer, and Christians were attacked by it, so they need to turn away or walk out. I’m sure they were very, very threatened by that sick old witch!

        • Parque_Hundido

          Others praying is “attacking” Christians?

          I’m with Paul. You people want a theocracy. You are against the very principles our country was founded upon.

      • Karen Hollenbeck

        No, Linda was correct.

        • Paul Hiett

          So in other words, you refuse to tolerate the rights of others to have their freedom of religion.

          Nice.

          • Buttercream Princess

            Did they say she couldn’t pray? No, they just chose not to be a part of it. I don’t agree with radical muslims butchering Christians so I choose not to do it. No different.

        • Karen Hollenbeck

          Correct I refuse to partake with someone communing with the devil. When she brings this into a public government meeting I draw the line. She can practice in her “church” all she wants, Nice? Well that depends on your definition of “nice” Frankly I don’t care if you like it or not. Only that God does. I

          • Paul Hiett

            Ah yes, intolerance at it’s finest…Christians believe they should be able to plaster their beliefs anywhere and everywhere they want, but if another religion wishes the same, they need to “practice in their church”.

            That’s just awesome right there.

  • Parque_Hundido

    This just shows how intolerant Chistians are. They should have remained seated in respectful silence as people of other faiths do whenever Christians pray. Instead, hey chose to turn their intolerance and disrespect into a media spectacle. .

    These alleged Christians should be ashamed of themselves.

    • Buttercream Princess

      Why? Would muslims sit there while a Christian prayed to God in a public forum? Would this Wiccan come to a prayer meeting and be a part of it? I’m so sick of the tolerance argument when your “side” isn’t tolerant either. Honestly, no one is tolerant. Everyone wants their own way and believes that they are right and the other person is wrong. Homosexuals scream for tolerance but don’t give it. The list goes on and on.

      • Paul Hiett

        Everything you just said is an assumption on your part. The only facts in this situation is that a Wiccan gave a prayer before a town meeting, and the Christians insulted her and disrespected her…the very things you claim others do to Christians.

        Hard to stomach, isn’t it, when the shoe is on the other foot?

        • Buttercream Princess

          I keep asking how they are disrespecting her and you can’t tell me. You want to spout intolerance but they just didn’t go to the meeting. What is wrong it that? You are acting like they picketed and acted like a bunch of heathens (like the left does quite often) and they did not. They just didn’t attend.

          I doubt you would go to a church just so someone doesn’t’ think you are disrespectful. Why don’t you worry about your own shoes on your own feet.

      • Parque_Hundido

        Muslims routinely sit in respectful silence as Christians pray, a sign of respect you are unwilling to return.

        You are opposed to the core principles our country was founded on. How ironic!

        • Buttercream Princess

          I’m sorry but what religion is it that is currently brutally murdering people who don’t worship Allah?

          • Paul Hiett

            Google “Central African Republic”, and tell me which religion is doing the killing there…

          • Buttercream Princess

            I know that. I also know that it’s an extremist group just like the ones murdering Christians. It goes against what God and the bible says.

          • Paul Hiett

            But that’s not what they believe. They are Christians, killing in the name of their religion…killing those who don’t worship “God”. I know you don’t like it, but facts are facts in this case.

          • AmericanCITIZEN

            I would have gotten up and walked out, myself. I am true to my beliefs, I don’t expect everyone to have them, and I reserve the right to act as I see it in these types of situations. If you, as an atheist, want to get up and leave during a Christian prayer, feel free to go.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Our country was founded as an alternative to theocratic states. We’re free to have any religion we want, including no religion at all.

    • Sam Thompson

      At least they didn’t sue her like atheist like to do. If i don’t want some other religion shoved in my face then i think i reserve the right to get up and leave. Its the same right atheists and people of all other faiths have but i never see them use it.

      • Parque_Hundido

        So these christians’ appalling, disrespectful behavior should be tolerated? Because you believe atheists would sue?

        Just want to be sure I understand the subtle, sophisticated argument you’re making here.

        • Buttercream Princess

          What did they do that was appalling or disrespectful>????? They chose not to be a part of a prayer meeting and instead created their own. They did not cause a scene or get up and storm out. They just didn’t go. They knew about it ahead of time and chose to not attend. How on earth is that disrespectful?

          • Parque_Hundido

            It was a ceremony at the legislature to mark the opening of a session. They boycotted. They should be impeached.

          • The Last Trump

            Ohh, boycotts are BAD now, are they?
            Man you hypocrites are just shameless.
            That’s good though. Makes you transparent and easy to refute.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Petulant temper tantrums are bad. This boycott was a petulant, childish temper tantrum.

            If you think temper tantrums are helpful, I guess that’s an issue you’ll need to work out on your own.

          • The Last Trump

            Now Parque.
            No need to throw temper tantrums.
            Just try to be smarter. 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Shake those fists impotent little man!

          • The Last Trump

            ?
            Were you having a moment? Some kind of confidence boosting self motivational pep talk?
            I’ll come back….little man. 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Are you back with us, angry little man?

          • The Last Trump

            Not done with your “moment”?
            I’ll wait. 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Shake those fists! Stomp those feet you angry, impotent little man.

          • The Last Trump

            That’s it? Really? That’s all you’ve got?
            Disappointing Park! Surely you can do better, no?

          • Parque_Hundido

            It seems to have upset you. I’ve clearly tapped into some important element of your pathology. That was easy.

          • Paul Hiett

            “Rep. Rob Taylor (R-West Des Moines) decided not to leave the room, but to turn away during the moment.”

            Oh?

          • Buttercream Princess

            So because he turned away he is disrespectful? LOL. Ok then. Gotcha.

          • Paul Hiett

            YES!!!!!!!!! Now you’re getting it.

            The EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR done by an atheist or some other religion would get berated and condemned by you, and you know it.

          • Buttercream Princess

            No, it wouldn’t be. I realize what freedom of religion means. I don’t have to be a part of it if I don’t want to. I’m not forced to be participate if I don’t want to. No one is supposed to be able to make anyone but it seems the left and people like you, are certainly trying.

          • The Last Trump

            Never has never will.
            But by all means, please cite examples.
            We of course have thousands to the contrary.
            You know, with America not a Christian nation in the first place and its citizens completely free to walk out of classrooms and auditoriums where prayers have been held. WITHOUT ISSUE.
            We’ll wait. No hurry, hypocrite.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you find an article in which those of other faiths are walking out on Christian prayers?

          • The Last Trump

            Thanks for your examples.
            I thought as much.

          • Paul Hiett

            So, you have no examples…

          • MisterPine

            You can choose to “not be a part of it” by sitting there respectfully and waiting until it’s over. You don’t need to make a production out of the fact you disapprove.

          • Buttercream Princess

            If it’s something that a person believes to be dangerous or completely wrong, they should just sit there so that someone doesn’t think they are being disrespectful? Why? It’s that Politically Correct attitude that is killing the country. You think it’s Christians because you don’t believe what they do but it’s people that forget that this country was created on the Freedom of Religion. No one is supposed to be force to worship any certain thing or be a part of it if they don’t choose to. You are trying to take that away though, in the name of tolerance.

          • Paul Hiett

            No one was asking them to convert, or partake in the prayer. We all know what Christians would be saying if it was Christian prayer that was being disrespected.

          • MisterPine

            May I ask what’s wrong with simple respect and sitting quietly? Are you terrified that someone’s going to mistake your inertia for approval? I’m not trying to take anything away from anyone at all. I’m just saying wait it out, it’s the polite thing to do and it’s not going to kill you.

          • Parque_Hundido

            These people are very superstitious. Some of them believe they’ll be possessed unless they throw a temper tantrum. It’s probably true. Right wing nutball christians are always being caught with hookers or doing drugs. They seem to be “possessed” very easily.

          • MisterPine

            Reason #9872 for staying away from religion…

          • The Last Trump

            “May I ask what’s wrong with simple respect and sitting quietly?” Absolutely nothing. Why don’t you try it, Pine.
            Just sit here quietly.
            Yeah, didn’t think so.

          • MisterPine

            I see no reason to sit quietly on a public forum when people like you are trying to uphold hatred.

          • The Last Trump

            Look at you!
            Answered your own question! 🙂

          • MisterPine

            No I didn’t, Rumpy.
            I said I saw no reason to sit quietly on a public forum while people like you are trying to uphold hatred. The Christians in this example in the news item were not being exposed to hatred in any sense of the word, unless you have magically managed to glean hatred from a very inclusive speech from someone from another faith.

          • Parque_Hundido

            I believe you are both dangerous and completely wrong. I would sit in respectful silence as you chant your superstitious little words to your baby jesus, or whatever it is you people do. I don’t believe in your god and I generally find you objectionable. That doesn’t mean I will organize a boycott or throw a temper tantrum when we give you time to display your superstitions.

            You don’t have to agree or endorse to show respect.

          • The Last Trump

            Utter nonsense.
            To even try to make this out to be more than it is, is just another obvious and ridiculous attempt to attack Christians.
            People have been leaving rooms where the Lord’s Prayer was given for generations. Can you imagine if the Christians were to demand they “stayed and stood there respectfully waiting until it’s over!” Suuuuure. So when the shoe is on the other foot, Christians are now expected to sit through it!? Hardly.
            Pick a side, MisterIntolerance. Can’t have it both ways, bub.
            Once again your hateful hypocrisy against Christians is on full display for the forum. Just keep opening your mouth. You know the old saying about fools and their tendency to talk too much. 🙂

          • Paul Hiett

            Attack on Christians? Christians walk out on her prayer, or sit there and turn their backs to her…and this is somehow an attack on Christianity? That’s hilarious…

            The sad thing is, if you Google “walked out on prayer”, you see no references to anyone walking out on Christian prayers, but you will see countless articles about Christians walking out on Muslim prayers, Hindu prayers, atheist invocation, and all sorts of other religious beliefs.

            But yeah, tell me more about how Christians are the ones being “attacked”….

          • The Last Trump

            Forum, meet Paul.
            🙂

          • MisterPine

            Rumpy, how am I attacking Christians by asking them to simply be respectful to other faiths? I’m not insisting you embrace those faiths.

            “People have been leaving rooms where the Lord’s Prayer was given for generations.” That’s a lie. And I certainly know of no people of other faiths that left the room when I was growing up and the Lord’s Prayer was said in school. If you’re referring to the fact that it was taken OUT of public schools, well, that’s because NO religion belongs in public school to begin with. Not just yours.

            So your line about Christians being attacked at every turn is getting a little stale, and it never rung true to begin with.

  • Harry Oh!

    Don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore. On what planet does a witch get invited to pray at a state legislature in America? The fall from our Biblical base in such a short span of years is daunting.

    • Paul Hiett

      How horrible it is that there are other people in this country that have different religious beliefs!!!!!

      • Buttercream Princess

        See, you keep missing the big picture here so you can claim intolerance and jump on Christians.

        • Paul Hiett

          Yes, I’m clearly missing the intolerance going on…that’s clearly outlined in the article.

          • Buttercream Princess

            It’s just a word people on the left use to have an excuse to be cruel to others. You don’t even know what it means.

          • Paul Hiett

            I don’t know what the world “intolerance” means? Really?

          • Parque_Hundido

            In contrast, you are a shining example of intolerance: you believe that others’ expressions of faith do not merit the same respect as yours. You are the very definition of bigot.

          • Psk6565

            And you are being a bigot against who you perceive to be a bigot. And who says intolerance is bad, you?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You make no sense.

          • Psk6565

            I do make sense, but since you know it you want to make an effort to make me think I don’t, without proving it. 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Tell us, what is it that you’re proving?

          • Psk6565

            I thought you knew I did not make sense. You should be able to show me why i do not make sense. Basically, you are being a hypocrite for rail against someone for speaking what they speak based on Christ being King. You should applaud him because you are so tolerant.

          • Parque_Hundido

            If I applauded someone’s actions based on “Christ being king”, would we not have t applaud the actions of every ten year old child who goes to Burger King and gets to wear a crown?

            Which made-up fairy tales are we to believe? Which should we reject?

            You continue to make no sense.

          • Psk6565

            So, you are not tolerant toward beliefs you deem wrong? You said:
            “…you are a shining example of intolerance: you believe that others’ expressions of faith do not merit the same respect as yours.”

            You do not respect Christ so you are not tolerant of Him and His people, but you demand that they be tolerant of everything against Christ.

          • Parque_Hundido

            What are you talking about? I sit in respectful silence when you people pray to your god. That’s the courtesy you refuse others.

          • Psk6565

            I, of course, am not talking about when you sit by when you see people praying. I, of course, am talking about your reply of intolerance toward Parque_Hundido. Or does tolerance only apply to public prayer?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re replying to Parque Hundido.

          • Psk6565

            Yeah, my mistake. Anyway, If you want to be consistent then be tolerant even toward Christians who are not. It is not Christians that claim we need to be tolerant.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You misunderstand. I sit in respectful silence when Christians pray in public. The same respect and courtesy was not shown in this case. Rather than reprimanding the christian extremists, you congratulate them. That shows that you refuse to grant to others the same respect you demand for yourself. That is hypocrisy.

          • Psk6565

            Hold on a second, You proclaim that we need to be tolerant but you are seeking to reprimand Christians who are doing exactly what Christ tells them to do. You are being intolerant of Christians that act out their faith.

            Christians never demand respect, but we earn it (granted, not from all).

            Why must one not be a hypocrite? Please don’t use the bible to explain why.

          • Parque_Hundido

            When did I “proclaim” that you need to be tolerant? You people watch too much Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

            If you demand that Christianity be the only religion allowed in the public sphere, you’d better believe we will come after you. That is contrary to the principles upon which our country was founded.

            Hypocrisy is a Greek term. You are free to be a hypocrite. I’m free to feel disdain for you because of it.

          • Psk6565

            “you are a shining example of intolerance:” Were you praising Buttercream for this or were you saying that she shouldn’t be like this, but to be tolerant?

            “If you demand that Christianity be the only religion allowed in the public sphere, you’d better believe we will come after you.” This is true Christianity and this is why there has been so much slaughter of Christians since the beginning.

            And yes, it is against the founding of the country.

          • Parque_Hundido

            So are you admitting that you are opposed to the principles upon which the United States was founded? I find it shocking, but I appreciate your candor in admitting that you will not tolerate other religions in public. It’s rare to find a religious extremist who will admit to being opposed to the US Constitution.

            Buttercream, like you, enjoys bringing up the “tolerance” meme. My remarks to her reflect her comments. I never “proclaimed” the need for tolerance. I don’t believe in it. Respect is different and despite what you think, you have certainly not earned it.

          • Psk6565

            Yes, I admit it. Christ is King and not “We the People.” He reigns and “…he commands all people everywhere to repent,…” For me or the state to say that all forms of idolatry is to be accepted would be to deceive people into thinking that Christ will accept it to.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Well, I respect your honesty. You’re the first Christian I’ve met who openly admits he is an enemy of the United States.

            To be clear: you are opposed to religious freedom.

          • Psk6565

            The United States is an enemy of Christ with her rejection of His laws, murdering of their children, rebellion to His created order of male and female, and other wicked acts.

            It is opposed to true freedom in Jesus Christ.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Thanks for sharing. Good to see your honesty about your hatred of our country. Most Christians lie about this.

          • happylada

            “So are you admitting that you are opposed to the principles upon which the United States was founded? I find it shocking, but I appreciate your candor in admitting that you will not tolerate other religions in public. It’s rare to find a religious extremist who will admit to being opposed to the US Constitution.”

            Obviously you have no concept of the wording OR intent of the constitution.

            Being historically Christian both in the PUBLIC worship of Creator God and in PRIVATE life is not in any way contrary to the Constitution. For years to be a public servant in the Government required recommendation from your state church.

            The possibility of atheist in government was discussed and rejected in the Federalist papers.

            Morality is ONLY based on Religion, and the best morality on the Christian religion. Your arrogance against Christian leads to the QUESTION: upon WHAT is YOU morality based?

            Upon WHAT do you deign to disdain Christianity?

            Even Hitchens articulated that morality was based upon religion – he just didn’t like morality (me thought)

          • Parque_Hundido

            No. This dominionist nonsense is just plain fiction, so wrong it hurts my eyes to even read it.

            The US is deliberately a secular country, founded in contrast to European states that were run by monarchs whose authority was attributed to their relationship to the divine. That’s why the Queen of England is head of state and also the head of the Church. That’s why we have no state religion, and why separation of church and state has been central to our democracy and our public life.

            I realize you don’t like this, but that’s not enough to change it. It doesn’t matter what opinion I have of Christianity, or even IF I have an opinion of Christianity. We’re free to have any religion we want, including no religion at all.

          • happylada

            “When did I “proclaim” that you need to be tolerant? You people watch too much Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh.

            If you demand that Christianity be the only religion allowed in the public sphere, you’d better believe we will come after you. That is contrary to the principles upon which our country was founded.

            Hypocrisy is a Greek term. You are free to be a hypocrite. I’m free to feel disdain for you because of it.”

            Again, a total disregard of the history of this nation, and a total ignorance of its founding.

            This nation was founded BY Christians as a place to publicly and freely worship God. The justification and pattern of the founding of this government was the Bible, and the Christian religion. The first act of the new Congress was the order of a Christian BIBLE for every home in America.

            The new CONGRESS was used a a CHRISTIAN church; the representatives both before an after the constitutional convention called on the people of the nation to join in prayer, repentance and humiliation before the God of the Universe that He may bless our land.

            Treaties were signed in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.

            Founders made many comments – that the constitution was not sufficient to rule any but a Christian nation; that we would be governed by the Bible or the Bayonet, etc.

            This was a Christian nation in every respect, a nation of Christians.

            Please do some self-education on the founding of this
            nation you want to destroy.

          • happylada

            Please demonstrate any example of Christian extremists?

            I suggest YOU are the illustration of hypocrisy in this case.

          • Psk6565

            And, no, not any form of thinking deserves respect accept that it conforms to the mind of Christ. This is love: That Christ came to save sinners and He uses His people to shine light on the thinking that is against Him and to appeal to those, in love, to turn to Him.

          • Parque_Hundido

            There, you said it. You refuse to respect others’ faith.

            How could this be any clearer? You demand respect that you refuse to show others. That’s why it’s impossible to take you seriously.

          • Psk6565

            “Which made-up fairy tales are we to believe? Which should we reject?”

            I don’t see respect here. I see derision.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Again, you misunderstand. You insist that I applaud others’ beliefs. I refuse to do so. Applause is very different from respect.

            To be clear, I feel nothing but contempt for your beliefs. That doesn’t stop me from being able to sit in respectful silence if you insist on praying in public.

            You don’t want respect, you want obedience. It’s not going to happen. You don’t deserve special rights. You barely write English, do you really think others are going to be persuaded by your “arguments”? Not going to happen.

          • Psk6565

            “To be clear, I feel nothing but contempt for your beliefs.” You have a weird way of showing respect.

            And now you start attacking my intelligence. This proves you are getting frustrated.

          • Parque_Hundido

            No frustration here. You seem to be struggling to understand the very difference you brought up: I do not have to applaud to show respect. I can hold any opinion or no opinion at all, that doesn’t mean I can’t show respect if you choose to engage in your superstitious behavior in public.

            You refuse to show that respect to others.

          • Psk6565

            I don’t need to admire false thinking, but I can act in kindness to the person who’s thinking I do not respect. I never demanded anyone show me respect, but that they respect Christ.

            The issue is, Christ demands all persons to admire Him and His people are to seek that this happens.

            Please prove why one must respect another persons thinking or actions as a result of their faith?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You demand that others respect “Christ”? Not going to happen buddy, not on this or any other planet. While your honesty is refreshing, I hope you can understand that your views make you squarely un-American.

            Respect is a fundamental element in the social contract, a concept that has been central to democracy since ancient Greece. The roman empire was a cosmopolitan mix of religions and peoples until Christians took over and turned it into a corrupt theocracy. We saw how that turned out. It’s shocking to see that there are people deluded enough to believe that their religion should be forced on others, but that’s what you people do.

          • Psk6565

            Oh yes, it does make me un-American. My allegiance is first to Christ and if America aligns with Him, I will be happy to be an American.

            I love people though I do not respect their thinking or acting that is not alighned with Jesus Christ, who is King.

            It does me honor if I were to be grouped together with those first Christians.

          • Parque_Hundido

            The roman widows? Really?

            Your religion has an awful history of violence toward others.

          • Psk6565

            Why is violence bad? You claim it is awful but how do you know that? I am not going to claim that unjustified violence in the name of Christ was not committed, but I have grounds to say it was wicked. How do you determine that?

          • Parque_Hundido

            What? I cannot decipher your question. Maybe try without the double negatives?

          • happylada

            I had no problem. Answer the question.

          • happylada

            “The roman widows? Really?

            Your religion has an awful history of violence toward others.”

            Really? again your history is fictitious and irrational.

            Please support your anti-historical statement with facts?

          • happylada

            “You demand that others respect “Christ”?

            Respect is a fundamental element in the social contract, a concept that has been central to democracy since ancient Greece. The roman empire was a cosmopolitan mix of religions and peoples until Christians took over and turned it into a corrupt theocracy. We saw how that turned out. It’s shocking to see that there are people deluded enough to believe that their religion should be forced on others, but that’s what you people do.”

            YOU obviously have NO concept of history. Christians never took over Rome – Rome adopted Christianity because it was sweeping the nation in a political move to stay ahead of the curve. BUT the sexual immorality and socialist agenda had already weakened the states past the point of recovery.

            There is NO such thing as a Christian nation – ONLY a nation of Christians

            AS the United states was at its founding and in its founding documents. Your revisionist of anti-factual history shows YOUR illiteracy.

            Don’t be quick to denigrate someone whose linguistics may not be 100%; your history would get a failing grade.

          • Psk6565

            This is love: That Christ came to save sinners and He uses His people to shine light on the thinking that is against Him and to appeal to those, in love, to turn to Him.

        • Parque_Hundido

          That’s because you are quick to throw a temper tantrum, as in this instance. If you showed respect, you might be taken seriously.

      • Harry Oh!

        Agreed (in spite of your sarcasm). Real truth is not subjective.

      • elisabeth

        do you really think that when calamity strikes your household that some witch god is going to help you? who do you cry out to in time of real trouble? a witch god? really?

        • MattFCharlestonSC

          Do you think in times of real trouble people of different faiths think to themselves — “Oh stuffin! Time to start praying to Christian God.”

          • Paul Hiett

            Nice one…

          • Richard

            Check out the D Day prayer.

          • Paul Hiett

            Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight, because every US soldier was a Christian!

          • Andrew

            No, usually they’ll just start praying to any god, not knowing which is real and which will answer.

            That’s the difference between them and Us. We know our God, and we KNOW He answers. We also know that we were once where you are. Lost without a hope in hell of getting out of this life alive. There’s absolutely NOTHING we could possibly do to change that either.

            Another difference between our God and many other gods…He came down here to save us..where as they have to work their way up to Him…and HOPE they are found worthy to enter paradise.

            We KNOW we are not worthy to enter paradise…but God so loved the world, that He gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that whosoever believes in HIM, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

            We also know that God commendeth HIS LOVE towards us, that while we were yet sinners (and HIS ENEMY) His Son died for us.

            We come here to give you good news, and you spit on it, and instead fight tooth and nail to secure your own damnation.

            I can’t help you on that….Sorry.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you think someone of another religion could come up to you and convert you, or are you absolutely, 100% rooted in your beliefs?

          • Andrew

            I’m 100% rooted…I will die for my faith.

            Do you know where you are going? If you died today?

          • Paul Hiett

            Now, as strongly rooted as you are in your faith, so too are these other people in their faiths.

            Do you understand this?

          • Andrew

            Yes, I do, absolutely…But let me tell you something. With what Isis is doing right now in the Middle east, there are muslims turning to Jesus Christ DESPITE the persecution.

            Shall we give up on them because of a possibility they may be so indoctrinated by their religion there’s no hope?

            God is still on His Throne, and despite the evil in man’s heart, God is still breaking thru.

            There are many christians who convert to other sects of “christianity”, which I won’t call Christian..but I cannot say they had an actual experience with God. Just like any possible understanding you may have gotten from your experience, would have only been superficial.

            I will tell you one thing tho…My dying for my faith, doesn’t mean I will be taking anyone down with me.

            I would die for YOU if it meant saving your life.

            We are called to be LIKE CHRIST, and just as Christ died for HIS ENEMIES, we are to LOVE OURS, even until DEATH.

            That is the call of the Christian.

          • Paul Hiett

            You don’t get it. They believe they are right as strongly as you believe you are right.

            There are also Christians converting to Islam as well, by the way.

          • Andrew

            I can’t help that, and it’s not our job to help that.

            It’s the calling of the Christian to make disciples of all nations. Preaching the truth of who Jesus is, and sowing the seeds of the gospel, into the hearts of men. It’s not our job to sow the seeds, water them and harvest them. God imparts that in the hearts of those who cry out to Him. But men need to understand their need first, and many won’t…They will defy him tooth and nail until their last stubborn breath.

            We’re not to worry about those people. We are to wipe our sandals off at the door when we leave, and move on.

          • Andrew

            But when it comes to the helpless, we are to cry out for justice..demand justice for those who can’t help themselves. Even if that means fighting for YOUR freedom to choose your own path, even when we disagree, if it means saving you from certain death.

            We understand there is a job for our government to exact justice..that is their job, and we are not to interfere with that..but when their justice becomes INJUSTICE, that’s when our voices need to be heard. Again however, we cannot force change. WE can only issue the warning of what will happen if they refuse to change.

          • Andrew

            Christianity demands that each individual is a FREE AGENT!! Free to make their own choice.

          • MC

            No, “Christian” is converting to islam, they were never Christians to begin with but antichrists.

            “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” 1 John 2:19

          • elisabeth

            i understand that any faith that is not founded on the rock of Jesus is going to crumble like a sand castle when the wrath of God comes down on them. Romans 8 says those who cry on the name of the Lord will be saved. i pray that anyone who is in trouble calls on the name of the Lord Jesus it is not too late. why would any Christian knowing this be part of any other false religion and sit there and passively watch people go to hell? if your friend was drowning would you jump in and save him? or would you just say oh he has a right to drown if he wants to. its the same thing, there is only one way to the Father, that is Jesus CHrist, you do have the right to believe what you want but I also have the right to speak truth.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, Elisabeth, you do have the right to speak your beliefs!!! I fully support that right…just like we should all support the right of all believers of all faiths to express their beliefs.

            Isn’t that what works best for everyone?

          • elisabeth

            then why are you trying to persecute Christians for standing up for their beliefs?

          • Paul Hiett

            No one is persecuting Christians…certainly not here in the US at least. To be fair, in America, there isn’t a Christian alive that knows what persecution is.

            My point is, when prayers of other beliefs are offered up, Christians have a history of not being very respectful to others.

            Would you like links to articles that highlight this problem?

          • elisabeth

            that is your problem, you read propaganda. why dont you try reading the bible?

          • Paul Hiett

            How is it “propaganda” to read about Christians interrupting the prayers of other faiths? Are you somehow suggesting that it’s not happening?

          • elisabeth

            i dare you to do research on all the good things that Christians do instead of any thing you can find negative that we do. like i said satan is the accuser of the brethren

          • elisabeth

            and Christians dont claim to be perfect people, all we claim is the GOspel that Jesus Christ came to take our sin away. and to repent.

          • Paul Hiett

            I would counter that with telling you that most religious groups do good things. Atheists do good things, and we’re not even an organized group. Both sides do bad things too…most religions are not without blood on their hands.

            Yet, shouldn’t we all respect the rights and beliefs of others…aren’t we all supposed to be equal in America?

          • elisabeth

            ok i know you are lying if you say you have never been wrong about anything before in your life. so with that being said, what if you are wrong about God? All it takes to be able to believe in him is to actually meet him and you cant do that with out asking him into your heart, you have to ask him. then the Holy Spirit comes and reveals him to you. dont you want to know him? dont you want to see God? it is possible for ANY one to know JEsus, he came for everyone on matter what you have done or said, he loves you Paul Hiett. eternity is very long time.

          • The Last Trump

            “Interrupting” the prayers now is it? Wow. Your slandering of Christians knows no bounds! Quite a smear campaign you like to run eh? Since the truth never backs you up, just fabricate outright lies. That’s Paul Hiett for you ladies and gentlemen. A confirmed liar. So desperate is he to have you turn from your faith.
            Go ahead Paul. Please quote the part of the article that claimed Christians “interrupted” ANYTHING.

          • Bill

            oh shut up you stupid pig

          • elisabeth

            be careful you are showing your maturity level

          • Bill

            piss off . I have nothing nice to say to scum like you

          • elisabeth

            be careful you are revealing how big your vocabulary is

          • Andrew

            That is not true Paul, there are MANY Christian missionaries who have seen first hand the persecution of Christians in many nations around the world. This is leading many leaders in the world to declare it a humanitarian crisis. Western nation Christians are seeing persecution in the form of religious intolerance towards Christians, as well as laws being created targetting Christians in particular. Perhaps you haven’t paid much attention seeing it doesn’t affect you personally, but we have seen it and we live it.

          • Michelle

            http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/02/04/christian-bakers-who-lost-their-shop-after-refusing-to-make-a-wedding-cake-for-a-lesbian-couple-could-be-forced-to-pay-150000-after-being-found-guilty-of-discrimination/ I call $150,000 fine and death threats causing you to shut down your bakery business for standing up for your Christian beliefs major persecution. Also, Christian owners of a pizza place are being threatened with death and destruction of their shop. They are scared to be in public for fear of losing their lives! Qualifies for persecution…they didn’t even refuse someone personally but just EXPRESSED their Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality and what they would say IF approached about catering a gay wedding….I could add about six more stories like this and stories of the IRS harassing conservative Christian organizations which was all over the national media. I think you get the point unless you refuse to get the point.http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/01/report-owners-of-indiana-pizzeria-opposed-to-gay-marriage-receive-death-threats/

          • David Martini

            1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (let’s put homosexuals in there for the moment)
            1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

            Okay, Paul says it’s not wrong to associate with those “without” who live these ways.

            1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

            Ah, so it’s to not keep company or associate or do something with or for those within the church who practice wrong behavior.

            1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
            1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth.

            I was “without” at one time in my life and God judged me worthy of salvation, justification, redemption and a new life in Christ. Not making a pizza or a cake for people “without” is pretty petty, in my honest estimation. And then to call it persecution! How will you ever show them the love of Christ or expect them to want to know anything about your hope or faith? How will you show them the Way?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Not making a pizza or a cake for people “without” is pretty petty, in my honest estimation.”

            No one has denied pizza or flowers or a cake to a gay person. That is intellectually dishonest of you to say that. The pizza parlor has never turned anyone away at their establishment. As for weddings, they have never even catered one. The florist in Washington provided flowers for gay people all the time, including her longtime customer who turned on her when she would not participate and affirm his gay “wedding.” I will assume, for the sake of kindness, that you are merely mis-informed and not intentionally lying.

          • David Martini

            Sorry if I misunderstood. I didn’t read the articles. So the pizza place serves gays/lesbians, but not gays/lesbians that would be married. If you want a pizza, you can get a pizza.. So why all the fuss? If it’s their lifestyle, why is being a single gay/lesbian okay and you get served, but not if they are seeking to join themselves together in what they believe to be a more permanent relationship? Single or no, they’re still homosexuals and lesbians.

            As for the bakery, I do believe they refused to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple, correct?

            And I didn’t anything about flowers.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Actually, the pizza place serves everyone who comes through the doors. They were asked a hypothetical question about catering a gay “wedding.” They have never even catered any wedding (most weddings don’t have pizza catered, if you know what I mean), but they replied that, under the hypothetical presented, they would not cater a gay “wedding,” because that would be a participatory act – an affirmation or celebration of the “wedding” by the Christian pizza parlor owners.

            So, if the gay couple wants to come in and order 50 pizzas for their wedding, they can have them. The pizza parlor is just not going to set up a physical presence on the site of a gay “wedding,” that’s all.

            I cannot actually remember the cake situation, but in Colorado, a gay baker refused to make a cake affirming traditional marriage, and the power of the state was not brought down on the gay bakery. Which is the correct ruling – too bad it does not apply to Christians as well.

            The Washington florist situation is very similar to the pizza parlor, except that she did decline participating in the gay “wedding,” and the power of the state was brought down upon her in order to attempt her business and personal financial ruin. She had served the “offended” gay man numerous times over the years, including his birthday party, so she obviously was not discriminating against gays. Just not participating in an event that is clearly antithetical to orthodox Christianity.

            As for why this is an important distinction, under the Christian view, one might ask oneself why a pizza parlor or florist might well cater (or design and set up the floral arrangements) for the birthday party of a gay person, but not for a gay “wedding?”

          • elisabeth

            im not having anyones blood on my hands, im gonna tell them the truth, petty or not.

          • David Martini

            Who told you that you are going to have blood on your hands?

          • elisabeth

            read your bible, its in there

          • Taussig

            Baloney! They were being nothing other than Bigots. They broke public accomodation laws and are paying the price. The laws of your holy man do not supersede the laws of our great nation oh poor persecuted xtian………………..

          • cheryl

            Totally untrue. Christians are being persecuted daily in the US and are losing businesses, homes, etc., because of standing for their belief. And being called intolerant. and bigoted also.

          • mspatdev

            I am a Christian and I know what being persecuted is. You do not know what it is.

          • MC

            Then how come Christian businesses are being targeted for expressing their Christian beliefs? Do you support our right to conduct our businesses by our faith?

          • Paul Hiett

            Christian businesses aren’t being “targeted”. When was the last time you saw a sign for a business advertising which religion they follow?

          • MC

            Then why were Christian bakers and pizza joint owners and photographers and florists persecuted for following their faith? Do you support our right to conduct our businesses by our faith?

          • Paul Hiett

            First, those businesses weren’t “targeted”. No one set out with the purpose of forcing them to discriminate. In the issue of the baker and the florist, they discriminated based on sexual orientation, which is a protected status in those cities/states.

            A business owner agrees to abide by the laws that govern commerce in this country, and under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, there are protected statuses in this country that a business may not discriminate against, which includes race, gender, religion, age, and a few others. Some states and cities are now simply adding sexual orientation to that list.

            As for the pizza store…I disagree with the treatment they received at the hands of some overzealous people, as they did nothing wrong except make a statement. They didn’t actually discriminate against anyone yet.

            So yes, a business owner does not have the right to pick and choose his customers if they are open to the general public.

          • Andrew

            Yes they are being targetted, specifically, otherwise, you’d see an equal amount of Muslim businesses being charged for the same reasons.

            Muslims would just as easily kill homosexuals, as per their sharia, yet you don’t see anyone going against them, least of all the homosexuals who would be systematically targetted if Christians were not there to stand up for their right to life. Just because we don’t agree with their lifestyle, doesn’t mean we wish them dead.

          • Paul Hiett

            FYI, someone went into a Muslim bakery the other week (it’s on youtube) and the said the same thing…they wouldn’t bake a cake for a gay wedding. This was is Deerborn, MI, btw. The reason why they can do that in that city, is because sexual orientation is not a protected status. However, in a city/state where it is protected, they would be fined just as any other store breaking the law.

            And yes, there are countries around the world where they execute people for being gay. We’re not one of those countries, btw.

          • Andrew

            Yes, it was people out to prove a point…Christian bakeries are not the only ones refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding, yet are disproportionately targetted for the heavy hand of the law to come down on them.

            Islam is protected, Christianity is not!

            That’s the difference.

          • Andrew

            and it’s the ISLAMIC Countries like I said that execute gays, yet they are ignored when it comes to gays attacking religious establishments.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, you’re missing a crucial piece of information…the Muslim bakery is not in a city or state which has “sexual orientation” as a protected status. If they were, then yes, they would be fined. Why are you ignoring this?

          • Andrew

            How can I ignore something I don’t know about. Why would that matter? Gays are not respecters of area of residence…they will go against anyone anywhere. The point still stands however that they are not being targetted AT ALL, in ANY STATE for their stance against homosexuality..why can’t you acknowledge that? Or is it expedient just to ignore that detail?

          • Andrew

            And note RELIGION is not to be discriminated against.

            sexual lifestyle is a personal choice, you might even call it a “belief”, but it doesn’t supersede any other “belief”, nor can it infringe on other’s rights to practice their faith.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ones sexual orientation is not a choice…but I will concede that it is a choice to engage in homosexual acts. Regardless, there’s nothing wrong with it other than some people think it’s “icky”.

            And yes, religion is a protected status (odd, that it’s just a choice too), but you’re not understanding why a business can’t discriminate while a customer can. A customer can pick and choose which business to frequent, while a business does not get to decide who comes in the door.

            This is simple business 101 information btw.

          • Andrew

            It’s just as much a choice as it is to smoke a cigarette or not. It becomes an addiction they don’t want to give up. God is the judge in such matters, not you or I. We will all stand before God, and they will have no excuse.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ok…fine…but I’m not sure how that’s relevant.

            Again, the laws governing commerce are different than the laws governing people.

          • Andrew

            The laws governing commerce is putting us in a heap of a mess. Businesses are shutting down and people are refusing to do commerce because of greater government restrictions. What makes you think MORE restriction is BETTER?

            Gays have a right to start their own business, and trust me, they exercise their right to tell off who they don’t like QUITE FREQUENTLY, but if you say anything, you’re a homophobe.

            When was the last time you heard “Christophobe” being tossed around as an excuse to verbally or physically assault anyone?

          • Paul Hiett

            I don’t see anyone but homosexuals being discriminated against. Where are you getting this idea that homosexual stores are refusing to serve people?

          • Andrew

            All I can say in that case, is you’re blind. Plain and simple.

            But I have to say, it’s a wilfull blindness, because it’s out in the open.

            Homosexuals do more attacking than any other people in society, and yet they’re the victim? Shame. People like yourself enable them.

          • Phipps Mike

            I call you on your BS. Christians are the biggest complainers of all groups citing “witnessing” as an excuse.

          • Andrew

            I didn’t say they refuse to serve people..I say they verbally assault others that disagree with them on a regular basis…and in my experience, you don’t even have to disagree with their lifestyle for them to scream homophobe..it can be anything…just they know what gets the maximum attention, and they use it. That is what happens when you are reprobate. There is NO conscience.

          • Paul Hiett

            Can you cite the article where this happened?

          • MisterPine

            Willing to bet it DIDN’T happen.

          • Andrew

            THE article?

          • Andrew

            Do you actually think you’d find a report on gays attacking anyone?

            Reporters would lose their jobs as the gays would come out demanding their heads on a stake.

            You know who the masters of society are, when you realize who you are not allowed to criticize.

          • Andrew

            Any report I did find, you’d accuse of being homophobic, regardless of what evidence they present or how objective it might be.

          • Phipps Mike

            verbal assault happens between everybody for many different reasons. Suck it up. Its when you refuse to act as a business when you are confronted by people you consider less than normal that is the issue here.

          • Phipps Mike

            who you are attracted to is NOT a choice. Thats in your hormones. How you ACT is what the choice is. If you cant articulate, then just shut up.

          • Andrew

            precisely the argument used by people marrying their dogs and raping children. How much further down the rabbit hole do you want to take this?

          • Phipps Mike

            1. never seen anybody attracted enough to a dog to marry it.
            2. True classic pedophilia, yes, IS inborn. That’s why it’s uncurable.
            the only Rabbit hole is the one YOU are looking down if you truly believe in that “gateway” tripe. Gateways are a MYTH.

          • Andrew

            wow..you really need to catch up on the times…we’re WAY past the “marrying one’s dog” issue…It’s just yet to be legalized.

          • Andrew

            There used to be the something called the “right to refuse service for any reason”

            As a private business, you make decisions you feel best for your private business. It’s not for anyone else to make for you.

            Just as the customer as you say, has a right to boycott that business if they are not happy with it.

          • Paul Hiett

            That “right” was left in the trashcan with the passing of the CRA in 64. No, a business open to the general public does not get to pick whom they will and will not serve.

            By the way, these laws protect Christians just as much as they do anyone else.

          • Andrew

            And that is what is wrong with America today, and why people are seeing themselves more and more without work, and no jobs being created!

          • Paul Hiett

            Laws that protect people is what is wrong with America?

          • Andrew

            Laws that protect ONE class over another class?

            The laws are discriminate when they cater to one class of people at the expense of another..it’s not equality.

          • Paul Hiett

            Again, the laws protect EVERYONE…where did you get the idea that our laws only protect one group of people?

          • Andrew

            Paul, when you get a law that comes out specifically naming one group of people, you are placing them above others..INHERENTLY.

            If the laws were equal, there’d be no reason to qualify it based on gender, sexual orientation, religion.

            Look, when it comes to jobs…it should be based on qualification and merit, not based on whether or not you want the labour board knocking on your door and charging you with discrimination.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you know why we had to pass the CRA of 64? It was because the majority (whites) thought they had a God given right to discriminate against blacks. Did you know it wasn’t until 67 that blacks and whites could even marry in this country?

            The reason we have protected statuses in this country is to prevent the kind of discrimination and treatment of others that was rampant for so many years. The Jim Crow laws, segregation, womens rights, etc. These are dark times in our history…do you really want go back to that kind of a place?

            Are you married? Have any sisters? Ask them if they would like to go back to being second class citizens, without the right to vote or drive a car?

            Would blacks like to go back to walking on the other side of the street, sitting in the backs of buses, drinking from separate water fountains?

          • Andrew

            In light of recent events, I’m wondering if CRA 64 was really a good idea and if blacks are actually able to handle such responsibility such as assimilating in civil society…maybe us CHRISTIANS who pushed CRA 64 were a little hasty.

          • Phipps Mike

            your a racist too? any more skeletons in that closet?

          • Andrew

            Not at all. Just making the observation that it was Christians who fought for civil liberties and freedom for the slaves, who CHAMPIONED the Christian principles of freedom for all men, who are seeing their freedom to worship God and be true to Him being challenged by the very people we fight for. Seeing how these people have used that freedom (to attack others who are not like them), makes me question whether it was a good idea. However, they have a right to abuse that freedom just like everyone else..that’s their choice.

          • Phipps Mike

            I dont think Lincoln was a Christian. I also KNOW that the majority of those fighting for civil rights , are LIBERAL activists. Liberal Christians are rare. Besides, fundamentalist Christians do not believe in equal rights. That’s all too obvious with their kicking and whining about gay marriage. To go by the Bible is to go against equal rights (assuming that God really is behind gay hating). Now if it were ONLY Christians who fought for civil rights, you would be HALF right. Its not a right to take away others rights (gay marriage). God is not allowed in the US to discriminate. That’s why we have freedom of religion….meaning we don’t have to recognize Christianity.

          • elisabeth

            if you read about sodom and gomorrah in the old testament, you will find that the judges changed the laws of that time as well to suit the perversion of the age. why dont you research present day sodom and gomorrah? its sitll there, they have found the remains of it. it is a facinating place to researhc.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, I’m aware of the story…I’ve read the Bible, btw. As for Sodom and Gomorrah…sorry, but that story is not substantiated by any stretch of the imagination, and there is no definitive proof that they’ve found those cities, nor have they found any evidence to suggest that the story is true.

          • Andrew

            lol..well if they were turned completely to ash, then it stands to reason you wouldn’t find evidence of those stories.

            However, if they were true, is it wise to tempt the Creator by rebelling against Him?

          • Paul Hiett

            Let me get this straight…we’ve seen the world at war twice, we’ve seen genocide to scales unheard of during ww2, we’ve had the crusades, the inquisition…unheard of atrocities committed against people throughout the world.

            But….it’s gay marriage that’s going to be the catalyst for God’s anger.

            Really?

          • Andrew

            did I say it would be the catalyst?

            All I’m saying, is those who don’t learn from history, are doomed to repeat it..and it will be their own fault.

          • Paul Hiett

            Well, seeing as how no other city in recorded history has been wiped out by God’s wrath since, I don’t think we have too much to worry about.

          • Andrew

            you keep telling yourself that…I guess you forgot the flood…oh, but that’s just a fairy tale also right? lol

          • Paul Hiett

            The flood? Yes, that’s a definite fairy tale. No evidence supports such a flood, and have you given it much thought? Have you considered that the Flood story says that all of the worlds races and cultures today all come from that small family that landed their boat on a mountain in Turkey?

            Think about it…

          • Andrew

            Actually, the earth is chalk full of evidence…you simply choose to avoid it.

          • Andrew

            Funny how ALL cultures have similar stories and legends that tell the SAME EVENTS…

            hmmm..curious indeed.

          • Paul Hiett

            Same events, eh? Have you really checked into the various flood stories?

            Also, why do the Egyptians, of all people, not register such an event…an event that should have wiped them out? Why does their history go back uninterrupted?

          • Andrew

            Actually I have checked them out..Sumerians have it written on walls and it’s written in the Chinese language that can be traced back to 2500 B.C. Their very characters are created based on the biblical narrative of creation, the flood, even so much as illustrating the 8 people who came off the boat and the coming sacrifice of the Messiah…It’s actually really amazing..and Chinese people have NO idea when they learn the Characters that make up many of their words, they’re LITERALLY writing out the Bible…Pretty interesting.

          • Andrew

            chinese have also recorded how they travelled to the east from a common place where language was ONE and people were ONE people…it describes the tower of babel and the confusing of languages which led to their separation and the Chinese people’s move to the land of the east.

          • Paul Hiett

            Why is it that the Egyptian civilization did not register the event that wiped them out?

          • Andrew

            maybe they did..who knows

          • Paul Hiett

            But, they didn’t…

          • Andrew

            Again, we don’t know that…Much of their “civilization” was destroyed. All we have are what we can make out with what is left.

          • Andrew

            You seem to be avoiding the many towns and neighbourhoods, and cities, being wiped out now by hurricanes, tornadoes, floods…etc…you think that’s just coincidence that we’re getting more wicked by the day and these things are coming on stronger at the same time? Maybe someone’s trying to wake this country up a little?

          • Paul Hiett

            Hello nature…

          • Andrew

            ahh, yes, the same nature that made man with a penis and a woman with a vagina, both complimentary for the purpose of creating new life and sustaining the human race..which the globalists are trying to destroy because we’re “overpopulated” therefore, WELCOME GAYS AND LESBIANS!!

          • Phipps Mike

            oh, so now you are a doomsayer and not a Christian. Make up your mind , Mr. paranoid.

          • Phipps Mike

            BEAUTIFUL comment. Lord forbid that anybody even likes a different FOOD than a Christian. Fundamentalist Christians are dictator wannabes.

          • Andrew

            Psalm 14:1
            The fool hath said in his heart, There is noGod. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, that’s a quote from the Bible.

            Is that all you wanted to do, post a quote from the Bible?

            Ummm…congratulations? You succeeded?

          • elisabeth

            amen brother, i am going to get off computer and pray for Paul. i pray that he sees the light. maybe the same light Saul saw on the road to damascus lol.

          • MC

            Of course they were targeted, all they had to do was say, “ok, no problem, I’ll look elsewhere”. And the pizza joint was targeted because she said she she wouldn’t cater a gay wedding, even though no gay person asked her to. And most importantly, and this is you lying again, none of these businesses discriminated against gay people, they served gay people all day everyday. They NEVER told a gay person to leave the store or that they won’t be served because they are gay. That NEVER happened so stop making up little stories, we already know the truth. They just don’t provide a service for gay ceremonies, to straight or gay people. Straight people can’t get a product for a gay ceremony, they just don’t provide that service. You just don’t believe religious people have a right to conduct their business according to their faith. You and the rest of the GAYstapo want to tell Christians when it’s ok to be Christians and when it’s not.

          • Paul Hiett

            First, I’m not lying…I’m not sure why you are getting that, other than maybe you saw Richard say it and are just parroting him because you can’t refute my points.

            The pizza store was not “targeted”, they made a statement answering a question from a reporter (why the reporter asked it, I don’t know), and unfortunately got caught up in the backlash against the discrimination of homosexuals. Again, I disagree with how they were treated…I don’t even if know if sexual orientation is a protected status there. It was wrong of people to threaten them.

            Now, back to our baker and florist. Yes, they discriminated and broke the law when they used sexual orientation as their reason for refusing to sell them the goods/services that they offer to the public. Again, business 101…you can’t discriminate against customers who are part of a legally protected status. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand.

            I’m not trying to insult you, but you have a very limited working knowledge of the law when it comes to commerce. Perhaps you should read the CRA of 64? Maybe Google something about discrimination laws regarding business in this country?

          • Andrew

            oh, it was just “unfortunate” That their business had to close down due to DEATH THREATS, but those EVIL Christians who actually did nothing but make a statement that they would not cater to the “unfortunately repressed” homosexual..they NEED TO BE STOPPED!!..right?

          • Paul Hiett

            I see you are focusing on only one aspect now…the pizza store.

            What do you want me to say? I disagree with how they were treated.

            What about the actual issue that we are discussing, and why businesses may not discriminate?

          • Andrew
          • Paul Hiett

            Ok…what about it? If a group of shareholders don’t like what the CEO is doing, or feels that their public image hurts the company, this is what happens.

            Further, from that article…

            ” Marriage Equality and Gay Rights in
            general are significant civil rights issues, and it is completely
            legitimate to be upset at laws (and the people who contributed to their
            passage) that assert that homosexual couples are not equal to
            heterosexual couples, and therefore not entitled to legal recognition
            and rights as a family. A man and woman who meet on a weekend in Vegas
            can get married on the spot and every state will recognize the validity
            of their marriage. A gay couple who has been together for decades
            shouldn’t get the same rights as the
            met-in-Vegas-and-immediately-got-hitched straight couple?”

            I point you to the words “civil rights issue.”

          • Andrew

            homosexuals can do whatever they choose, but to say we have to accept it, is to discriminate against our right to discriminate against a lifestyle that God clearly says is an abomination.

            This is not a civil rights issue…we’re talking apples and oranges.

            Just because they claim it is, doesn’t mean it is.

            This is about lifestyle choices.

            If someone decided they were born peadophile…and trust me, it’s happening already, and decide that it’s an infringement on their right to discriminate against their sexual orientation towards Children, then should we stand down and accept that as well? Cause trust me, the cat has been let out of the bag, and without a CLEAR guiding force directing our laws, then they’re just arbitrary and change at the whim of a hat based on the popular opinion of the day.

          • Paul Hiett

            Those on the wrong side of the Jim Crow laws didn’t think it was a civil rights issue either.

          • Andrew

            Was it a civil rights issue in Roe vs. Wade?

          • Bill

            freedom of choice

          • Andrew

            there’s no doubt everyone has freedom of choice, but that choice sometimes comes with consequences..since when is murder a choice without consequence?

          • Bill

            abortion isn’t considered murder. and a person has the right to control their own bodies and that includes pregnancies.

          • Andrew

            Try convincing the judge of that..by judge I mean God.

          • Bill

            abortion is legal how your god feels about it is irrelevant

          • Andrew

            Legal is not equivalent to lawful. Those are two different things altogether.

            Burning heretics alive in the middle ages was also legal…

          • Bill

            actually is is. if something is legal then it is lawful that what the word means

            http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/lawful

          • Andrew

            If they have the ABILITY to control their own bodies, they’d keep their legs closed until they were properly married.

          • Bill

            and what happens if they’re raped or the pregnancy poses a health risk?

          • Andrew

            Yeah, cause we all know it’s only raped or the pregnancy poses a health risk that aborts an innocent baby. In total, it comes to less than 1% of abortions..try again.

          • Bill

            why? those where just two scenarios that conflict with that “keep yours closed” BS freedom of choice is recognized no matter what you pigs think

          • Andrew

            How about hobby lobby against the feminazi’s who love killing babies?

            How about Chick fil A

            Why are Christian businesses the ONLY ones being targetted?

          • Paul Hiett

            Maybe you think they’re being targeted because they’re the ones coming forth and claiming that they need to be able to discriminate because of their religious beliefs?

          • Andrew

            discriminating about whether or not they want anything to do with aborting babies? And why do you say they don’t have that right to discriminate?

          • Andrew

            Everyone discriminates..it’s in our best interest to discriminate. We discriminate every time we decide whether to befriend someone. We discriminate when it comes to taking an action on an issue. We discriminate when we pick a side in ANY debate. Life is chalk full of discrimination, and if we didn’t, how can we possibly make laws surrounding what we know to be evils in society? We HAVE to discriminate to survive in this world. To say it’s illegal to discriminate against anyone for anything opens up more cans of worms than you can imagine. We discriminate against KNOWN pedophiles from working in any job having to do with children. What is so wrong with discriminating?

          • Andrew

            What YOU are ultimately advocating, is it’s okay for anyone to discriminate against a Christian for their beliefs, but it’s not okay for a Christian to discriminate against anyone for their lifestyle, whether it’s ultimately good for society or not.

            Just because we don’t want God’s judgement to rain down on our heads I guess is not a good reason to discriminate, right?

          • Andrew

            Our wanting NOT to go to hell when we die, is NOT a good reason to discriminate?

            Btw…NOT wanting going to hell, INSISTS we don’t hate, murder, steal, lie, cheat, covet commit adultery, and not to support any of these things in others…but THAT’S BAD right?

          • Phipps Mike

            “Our wanting NOT to go to hell when we die, is NOT a good reason to discriminate?”
            get a life coward.

          • Andrew

            Well, we’ll see who the coward is when Christ comes knocking.

          • MC

            Yes, you’re lying and you know it. And yes, they were targeted, have you seen the inside of the pizza joint, with all their Christian memorabilia all over the place? Let me try to explain this again to you, they didn’t disciminate against ANY homosexuals, they serve gay people all day everyday. They just don’t produce a product or service for gay celebrations, WHETHER YOUR STRAIGHT OR GAY! It’s not their line of work, you’re trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. If a straight person came in and wanted a service for a gay celebration, they would be turned down. Gay celebrations are not a protected class.

          • Paul Hiett

            How am I lying by stating that no one targeted them? They weren’t targeted…the responses from those who threatened them came after their statements went public from the interview.

            I also disagree with how they were treated.

          • MC

            The reporter targeted their business because they knew it was a Christian owned business. You also lie when you say Christian bakers disciminated against gay folks, when you know for a FACT they serve gay people all day everyday. If they refused to let them in the door then you would be correct.

          • Paul Hiett

            Well, you can claim that the reporter somehow targeted them, but you’d have to ask the reporter. I don’t know what they were being interviewed for in the first place, to be honest.

            And yes MC, it is discrimination if you refuse to provide someone the products that you advertise to the general public if the reason is because of race, gender, age, sexual orientation (if it’s protected there), and religion.

            Again, simple Business 101.

          • Andrew

            Can you provide me one news report where a Muslim business was interviewed on these issues

          • Paul Hiett

            Go to youtube, look up Muslim Baker.

          • MC

            Again, you got it wrong. They don’t advertise services for gay celebrations to anyone because that’s not their line of business. You might as well go in there and force them to fix your wristwatch. Gay celebrations is not a protected class.

          • Phipps Mike

            “You just don’t believe religious people have a right to conduct their business according to their faith.”
            well duh!! they DONT have that right when they are acting as a business. When they are serving the public , they are NOT considered a religious entity…end of story. Religion does NOT get to discriminate.

          • elisabeth

            oh yes they are being targeted, wake up, businesses are having to shut down all over the country for following their beliefs, anyone who refuses to make gay wedding cake now has to pay huge fines that put them out of business and in some cases they have to go to jail. you have been brainwashed by media and our government, it is time to wake up. they are doing to CHristians the same thing they did to the Jews. and you are too blind to see it. are you going to turn a blind eye like Germany did?

          • Paul Hiett

            Read my response to MC below please…

          • Andrew

            Granted it causes no harm. Not all faiths are peaceful, and many would willingly kill you as an expression of their faith. Many also support very dangerous practices, that as a Christian I cannot support, but I cannot stop them from practicing them, I can only speak against them teaching others to follow them.

          • Andrew
          • Paul Hiett

            “Answers in Genesis”

            Ok then…

          • Andrew

            you can find many sites online that substantiates what he’s saying..why are you so quick to dismiss based on who’s saying it? Is what he saying untrue? Cause I can see for myself that there are actual sites dedicated to boycotting Pepsi for their FREE SOCIETY Commercial support. But the oh so tolerant and NON Discriminating secular division would sooner destroy another company for doing business with a CHRISTIAN…

            there are many such instances…

          • Andrew

            So, they don’t just persecute Christians, they persecute ANYONE who supports anyone who is Christian.

            No persecution here tho right?

          • happylada

            Funny that in the Congress that was used as a church, ONLY Christian preachers were welcome. Only Christian preachers prayed in the Government offices.

            Bigotry? maybe – but this was FOUNDED as a nation of CHRISTIANS. Others welcome, but only while respecting our values and traditions.

          • happylada

            SO whose beliefs get priority in the case of the inevitable conflict? Obviously our history, founding and laws were made from a CHRISTIAN perspective to rule a CHRISTIAN people.

            WHY then should CHRISTIAN beliefs and traditions and history be ignored, revised and denigrated in the US?

          • Oboehner

            You cling to your faith rabidly, what are you talking about.

          • Andrew

            1 John 1:9

            If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

          • Andrew

            Let me ask you something. People treat one another with contempt. Our Justice system is broken. They treat people like they don’t matter. Innocent babies are being slaughtered because man doesn’t fear a God who demands justice. You are listening to people who choose to live according to their own devices, and this is only one example of the evil contempt man has for one another. This is NOT God’s fault. This is MAN’S.

            http://truthuncensored.net/judge-reduces-prison-sentence-man-raped-a-3-year-old-did-not-mean-to-harm-her/

            Do you think that a Godless system, the one that demands we DEFEND the INNOCENT and protect the helpless, the children, the elderly and the disabled, is WORSE than the one we live in now?

          • happylada

            Absolutely. Countless stories demonstrate that. Muzlims are turning to Christ as they are being slaughtered by fellow muzlims. They were before the slaughter began.

            There is in the heart of every man the knowledge of God. Well hidden in some cultures.

      • bowie1

        Would you be willing to join in?

      • Psk6565

        Why do you rail against a man that has different beliefs? If you were true to what you say you believe you would not denounce anyone, even a Christian who says Christ is King.

    • Parque_Hundido

      We should all salute the Iowa Legislature for showing what freedom of religion means. In contrast, you seem to believe that freedom of religion means freedom to be a Christian.

      Not true.

      • Harry Oh!

        Truth and logic are a narrow path and are not subjective to the whims and capriciousness of fallible human reasonings, like yours.

        • Parque_Hundido

          You are objectively wrong. You can cast a spell, chant your little prayers to your made-up god and engage in all manner of superstitious behavior.

          You’re still objectively wrong.

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      Earth.

    • wahoosam

      Suddenly concerned about keeping government and religion separate, are we?

      • Harry Oh!

        Only the wrong religions

        • Bill

          they’re all wrong. but if you allow one in you mist allow them all no matter what a pig like you thinks

          • Harry Oh!

            You ‘mist’ take some grammar lessons and while you’re at it, try to learn some class too.

          • Bill

            piss off you stupid pig

      • cheryl

        This is not really a religion, although I am sure you will disagree. They are worshiping.

        • Cindy Bowen

          AHH. Yes , it is a religion.

    • Bill

      it’s called freedom of religion

  • FoJC_Forever

    The Apostle Paul displayed what Jesus intended when dealing with those who invite foreign spirits and beliefs into their bodies and lives, when they want to be used by any spirit in existence. The Apostle Paul, empowered by the Holy Spirit, cast the demon out of the woman being used to seduce a community and to make here “handlers’ money.

    Christians shouldn’t shy away from praying against people who reiterate the words of Satan, which are any words which deviate from the living Word of God, Jesus Christ.

    • Parque_Hundido

      If you believe that, you won’t be able to participate in our country’s government. We have freedom of religion in the United States. Sorry.

  • FoJC_Forever

    Invoking pagan belief systems and the spirits which spread them will increase the ruin being spread in America and the world. The End of this Age is at hand.

    • Parque_Hundido

      Freedom of religion is one of the principles upon which this country was founded. Why are you opposed to it?

  • SFBruce

    Deborah Maynard delivered a beautiful prayer. It was a fine moment for those of us who believe in freedom of religion.

  • TheBBP

    I think that Rep. Rob Taylor should have joined the others outside. If Jesus were to passively protest, I do not think it would be while standing there listening to the witch recite her prayer. The others did well to opt out of it.

  • Parque_Hundido

    Hats off to the Iowa Legislature for inviting religious leaders from a variety of faiths to lead prayer in their openings. That shows the true spirit of freedom of religion: the ability to follow any faith or none at all.

    Shame on the “Christians” who threw a temper tantrum, boycotting a ceremony just because they weren’t in charge of it. This shows the true, mean spirit of most American Christians: they’re only in favor of religious freedom so long as the only religion is theirs.

    • Andrew

      Ahh…cause it’s good for everyone that Christians get their heads chopped off, and soon enough you too if we’re no longer here to stand up for YOUR right to live!! You have no idea what you speak of.

      • Andrew

        Christians are the CHAMPIONS of religious freedom…We don’t force ours down anyone’s throat, but we make way always for invitation for those who desire eternal life.

        You want to choose hell, that’s your right, but don’t think you speak for EVERYONE when you demand Christians keep their faith to ourselves. We’re not chopping anyone’s heads off, or holding guns to anyone’s heads to get them to convert.

        • Parque_Hundido

          No. You are the single greatest enemy of freedom today. There is no difference at all between you and ISIS or the Taliban.

          • The Last Trump

            What a m0ronic statement.
            Just keep talking Park. Let everybody know what you’re all about.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Glad I could be of help. Looks like my words have triggered an episode. I’m delighted to know how easy it is to set you off.

            You’ve been owned impotent little man.

          • The Last Trump

            ?
            Who, what?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You appear to be in the middle of an episode. Your crush on me is just a symptom.

      • Paul Hiett

        How is a Wiccan giving a prayer somehow equated to wanting to chop off heads of Christians?

        How did you ever reach to that conclusion?

        • Andrew

          Because Christians around the world getting their heads chopped off..in case you haven’t been keeping up on this whole ISIS thing. And Religious Freedom laws are being made to the DETRIMENT of Christianity, because we’re the ones who are losing OUR freedom in order to promote everyone else’s.

          But don’t worry, once Islam grows enough here in america, you will also be forced to convert or DIE..and since we’ll be the first one’s taking the hit, we won’t be here to fight for your right to live without being FORCED to swallow someone else’s faith!

          • Paul Hiett

            in case you haven’t noticed, ISIS isn’t limiting who they kill to just Christians.

            No one has taken away any freedom from Christians. Other religions are simply getting the same protections and rights that you’ve enjoyed. I think you’re just upset that you’re not special anymore.

          • Andrew

            Really? churches in America are being sued for not marrying homosexuals, which goes against their RELIGIOUS beliefs, yet Muslims are getting off the hook for not baking gay wedding cakes.

            Paul, I believe your choosing your information selectively and NOT objectively.

            Christianity is severely under attack, and it’s increasing..simply by the constant barrage of double standards from everyone in every corner…it’s head spinning, really.

            but we expect this reaction, therefore, it’s no surprise to us. We lay down our lives, and for no good reason. Because sinners are “offended” that we DARE point out their sin and the fact they are going to hell if they continue in it..not to mention the myriad of earthly consequence

            but hey, don’t take my word for it or anything.

          • Paul Hiett

            Churches can refuse same-sex weddings all they want…you are
            mistaking the LBGT fight for marriage equality with the government vs
            having ceremonies in a church. No one is suing churches right now.

            The
            muslim baker you are referring to lives in a city in which sexual
            orientation is not a protected status, therefore they did nothing wrong.
            Not all states/counties have the same protection laws as others. You
            should learn the difference.

            Christians, in the US, are clearly
            not “under attack”, but they do lash out at atheists, gays, and anyone
            from another religion anytime they wish to have the same protections and
            rights that Christians do.

            It’s called hypocrisy for a reason.

          • Parque_Hundido

            I don’t see how you are any different than the Taliban. Unless you’re willing to keep your religion private, and far away from our legislatures, you’re going to have to live with other people’s expression of faith.

          • Andrew

            Why should we keep ours private? Unless the world is willing to stuff their sin back in the closet and not allow it to infect our children, we are compelled to expose it and try to turn people from it. It’s Atheism and Satanism that is making America the cesspool that it is today, and you have nobody to blame but yourself. Again, either learn from history, or repeat it. Christianity made America, and you are destroying it. Well, congratulations!

          • Parque_Hundido

            You have a choice: either we tolerate no expressions of faith in public life or we tolerate all expression of faith. Your religion does not have special status. You do not have any special rights.

            Stop demanding special rights.

            Freedom of religion means that others have the same freedom afforded to you.

          • Andrew

            I never said we don’t tolerate other’s expression of faith..but when those demanding we accept THEIR expressions of faith, turn around and deny US the ability to express OURS..that’s when we have issue.

            and THAT is what is happening…but again, you couldn’t care less if Christians are trampled on..as long as witches, warlocks, muslims, satanists and every other EVIL under the sun gets to expose themselves…

          • Andrew

            You make the clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Nonsense. You’re justifying yet another christian temper tantrum, a fit of childish anger because they weren’t in charge of opening the legislature.

            Grow up.

          • Paul Hiett

            He’s right, and this article outlines the hypocrisy that’s going on. Christians, in this case, did the trampling, but your Christian colored glasses are preventing you from seeing it.

          • Parque_Hundido

            I agree that the Christians are doing the trampling. They are quick to condemn, quick to attack and the last to see how they’re involved in all of this.

          • The Last Trump

            Awww, those mean old Christians ruining you’re good time Parkster? Stomp those feet and shake those fists eh, little buddy? 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            I see my words have made quite an impact on you. We’ve seen how your unrequited desire for your father turned you into the mess you are today.

            Why not consider getting real help instead of acting out against others?

          • The Last Trump

            Told you, bud. My father’s taken.
            (that would be my mother, for you sexually confused types).
            There’s other confused fish in the sea Parque.
            Get out there and find that “special” someone to “love”.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Glad to see my words at still echoing in your head. You’re drawn to me because I gve off the masculine authority you craved from your father. You still crave it now, hence your crush on me.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, you give something off alright!
            And it’s stinky… 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Clearly, you find me irresistible. But I will reject you just as your parents did.

            So sad.

        • Parque_Hundido

          These superstitious, weak-minded people are prone to delusion and hysteria.

          • The Last Trump

            Evolution believing atheists?
            I hear you brother!
            Those suckers will believe in anything!
            (NOW they believe WE are causing climate change! Hee hee! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Please, go on. I’ll take notes.

          • The Last Trump

            “In the beginning there was nothing. Then, IT EXPLODED!?”
            Hee, hee!
            Did you get all that, ape man?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Tell me more about your mother…

          • The Last Trump

            Wouldn’t you really like to know more about my FATHER?
            Hmmmm? C’mon! Don’t be shy. That IS why you’re HERE after all, yes princess? 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Tell me, were you always estranged from your father?

          • The Last Trump

            See I KNEW you really wanted my father! I mean, to talk about my father. Oh, you would have liked him, woodchuck! But alas, he was into girls. 🙁 I know right? How DARE he! Homophobe! Let’s threaten him with death and blow up his pizzeria eh, you little bloodthirsty Gaystapo recruiter! Silly goose! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            Oh, my. I think we’ve found part of your problem. You feel your father didn’t love you, that’s why you developed a hatred toward gay people.

            You people are all pathological.

          • The Last Trump

            I think you might be onto something.
            My father didn’t “love” me in the twisted interpretation you go for.
            Perhaps that’s why I grew up a normal heterosexual male eh Parque? Proper morals growing up?
            Did your father “love” you little buddy? Is that why you “love” boys?
            Aww that’s too bad Parque. Raw deal little buddy. 🙁

          • Parque_Hundido

            Oh, no, no. You may have aged, but you never grew up. And certainly not as anything anyone might describe as “normal”. Sorry.

          • The Last Trump

            Did he buy you ice cream after he “loved” you, little abused buddy?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Are you thinking about molesting children? Again?

          • The Last Trump

            Such a sad story Parque. Some kids never received enough love when they were growing up. You actually received TOO MUCH “love”!
            I’d recommend you get counselling for that but your hero, Obama, seems to have banned it! Go figure. 🙁

          • Parque_Hundido

            Remember, so long as you’re having an episode. You’re a danger to children. Your parole officer has been over this with you.

            You don’t want to go back to prison, do you?

          • MisterPine

            Speaking of threatening people with death, you’ll find THESE hilarious, Rumpy. Hee hee hee! Too funny! Etc

            After you read through these, come back and tell us some more about the nasty homosexuals who are oppressing Christians.

            Pastor James David Manning, Harlem –
            Christians Must Be Willing To Kill To Stop Sodomites
            “..
            against the sodomites, against racism – we’re gonna have to be willing
            to kill as well. You can try to arrest me, saying that I’m inciting murderous behavior. Go ahead and try. See if that will stand up in
            court. Let me tell you something, if you’re not willing to kill for what you believe, if you’re not will to kill those that are diametrically opposed in great evil against you believe, then you’re not worthy of his service. You gotta be willing to kill.”
            http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2

            Pastor Donnie Romero, founder of Stedfast Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas
            Texas pastor brags about harassing lesbians as he calls for death of ‘dirty f*ggots’
            “I love that part of the Bible, and I’m going to preach that part of the
            Bible until the day I die, and if I ever stop preaching that part of the
            Bible, I hope my kids tell me, ‘Dad, you’re going soft on sin. You need
            to get up there and rip on these queers because it’s only getting worse and worse’”
            “Romero said gays should be marked for death, unlike other sinners, because he said God views them as an abomination.”
            http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201

            Patsor Stephen L. Anderson, pastor of Faithful Word Baptist Church in Tempe, Arizona
            ‘Kill All Homos’ Pastor: ‘It’s the Government’s Job’ to Execute Gay People (VIDEO)
            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2
            http://tellmenow.com/2014/05/a
            “It was right there in the Bible all along — and they’re out spending
            billions of dollars in research and testing. It’s curable — right
            there,” he told his congregation after quoting from Leviticus. “Because
            if you executed the homos like God recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running rampant.”
            “Rather than the government’s job is to punish criminals and to execute those who commit capital crimes and according to the Bible, homosexuality is a capital crime, and I didn’t write the Bible.”
            “Well, that’s just a fallacy that it just turns out that certain people are gay. That’s just a lie. Because it’s not random — it’s not something that’s just gonna accidentally happen to one of my children…”

            AZ Pastor’s ‘Biblical’ FINAL SOLUTION to ‘Homo’ ‘Pedophiles’: Mass Extermination (VIDEO)
            http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/p
            “And
            that, my friend, is the cure for AIDS. It was right there in the Bible
            all along — and they’re out spending billions of dollars in research and testing. It’s curable — right there. Because if you executed the homos like God recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running rampant. Because just think — what would be your attitude toward pedophiles? That should be your attitude toward homos. Would you have pedophiles over for a family gathering? Would you invite pedophiles into the church? No — that’s what they are.”

            Pastor Charles L. Worley of Providence Road Baptist Church
            “I figured a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers. Build a great,
            big, large fence — 150- or 100-mile long — put all the lesbians in
            there . . . do the same thing for the queers and the homosexuals, and
            have that fence electrified so they can’t get out.”
            http://www.nydailynews.com/new

            Pastor Robby Gallaty, Brainerd Baptist Church
            “They must be put to death. And their blood is on their own hands”
            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2

            Pastor Curtis Knapp, of the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas
            “They should be put to death. Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”
            http://www.opposingviews.com/i

            Pastor Robert Anderson, Colonial Baptist Church
            “Those who practice such things are deserving of death”
            http://www.theindychannel.com/

            Pastor Michael V. Williams, PreachingPolitics
            “practice of homosexuality in the United States of America and in all its
            territories and possessions, and in all its States, Counties and Cities
            shall be a felony punishable by ten years in prison at hard labor.”
            http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201…Reverend Michael Crook
            “I really, truly wish that atheism and homosexuality could both be criminalized with the death penalty as end result”
            http://aattp.org/christian-pas

      • Parque_Hundido

        You oppose religious freedom. How on earth do you consider that “standing up” for others’ rights? Self deluded much?

        • Andrew

          No, we don’t oppose it Parque…we simply recognise them for what they are.

          We don’t force anyone to do anything…We expose sin for what it is, but we know from history, that man is inclined to ignore the warnings of God and go their own way regardless, and we are also aware of the consequence, by history…many refuse to learn from it, therefore doomed to repeat it.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You are opposed to one of the fundamental principles of American political life. It’s no exaggeration to say that you are un-American.

            We don’t oppose you, we just feel obliged to point out your errors and your attack on American values.

            You are a theocrat. You hate the very freedom we gave you that allows you to express your religion. How ironic.

          • Andrew

            Parque, you speak out of complete and utter ignorance, therefore I will not dignify you with a response..I will only say this..be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

          • Parque_Hundido

            Your ignorance is appalling.

            You should get down on your knees and thank the atheists and satanists who work to guarantee true freedom of religion.

          • Andrew

            Wow…just wow…you stumped me man..I can’t top that…:/

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re welcome.

          • Richard

            You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. – John 8:44

          • Parque_Hundido

            Would you repeat that in front of a psychiatrist? I think there’s a vial of Thorazine with your name on it.

          • The Last Trump

            In your medicine cabinet?

          • Parque_Hundido

            Do you think of me as your psychiatrist?

          • The Last Trump

            I see you more as a ….patient. 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            How long have you had these delusions of grandeur?

          • AmericanCITIZEN

            Never mind, Andrew. He’s just a troll who loves to bait Christians.

    • TheBBP

      LOL, you shouldn’t talk about how anyone else is “mean-spirited with the extra mile that you are giving to hate on some Christians.

  • elisabeth

    tayor doesnt know his bible, Jesus would not passively protest. it is an incredibly stupid thing to say. Jesus would not sit there and listen to some witch pray. he would get up and start turning over tables and whipping that witch’s butt with a rod of iron.

    • Paul Hiett

      Just…wow.

      If ever someone could put into words the kind of intolerance and anger that Christians have towards all other faiths, you just did it.

      • elisabeth

        hey i never said that is what i would do, i said that is what Jesus would do if you read the bible, the word of GOd you would see that. he tells us to love each other which is what i do. but i dear sir am not God. he is coming to judge the world with a rod of iron, bible clearly says we are going to be held responsible for what we do on this earth. you are sending people to hell with tolerance doctrine, wake up before its too late.

      • Richard

        Do you think Jesus was intolerant and angry when he said the Pharisees were vipers?

        • Paul Hiett

          That has nothing to do with this case, and that’s a pretty weak straw man there.

          The issue here is that Christians have shown the exact same intolerance and disrespect that they claim is happening to them.

          • Richard

            Straw man? Do you know that is?

            My questions were simple. Do you have an answer?

            How about when Jesus overturned the money changer tables? Was he intolerant and angry then?

            Do you know what the difference between plain anger and righteous anger is?

            How about when God wiped out Sodom and Gomorra? Intolerant and angry then?

            BTW, as a moral relativist, you have no right condemning others. It goes against your beliefs.

          • Paul Hiett

            It has nothing to do with the conversation, at all.

          • Richard

            Of course it does. Christians left because of idol worship. God detests idol worship. Is God intolerant? Angry? Justified?

          • Paul Hiett

            This wasn’t “idol” worship. They left and those that stayed turned their back on her because they are intolerant of her beliefs, and nothing more. This has nothing to do with what your deity may or may not have said 2000 years.

            And yes, your deity, as you believe in him, is most certainly intolerant and angry. Regardless, that still has nothing to do with the utter disrespect shown in this case.

          • Richard

            > This wasn’t “idol” worship.

            Of course it is. Anything that takes the place of God is an idol.

            > This has nothing to do with what your deity may or may not have said 2000 years.

            It has everything to do with it. God doesn’t change, neither do his commandments.

            >And yes, your deity, as you believe in him, is most certainly intolerant and angry.

            You can take that up with God when you meet him face to face.

            As a moral relativist, you are betraying your own moral code by judging God. Doesn’t it bother you to be hypocritical? Say one thing and do another?

      • elisabeth

        satan is called the accuser of the brethren, you cant accuse me of anything but speaking truth, you can spout intolerance crap all you want it is still just another way for the people who work for the devil to try and silence Christians.

        • Richard

          AMEN! Paul is deceived and doesn’t even realize it.

        • Parque_Hundido

          I think you just gave those who wish to silence christians all the ammunition they need.

          • elisabeth

            hows that hudidit? by speaking truth? really? dont think so. i pray that you get those blinders off that the devil put on your eyes before its too late. once the door closes to the ark its too late.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You’re bigotry is causing people to despise Christianity.

    • Parque_Hundido

      Is there some S&M Jesus that I don’t know about?

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    “We call this morning to God, goddess, universe—that which is greater than ourselves to be here today. By the earth that is in our bones and centers us, may all here remember our roots and those whom we are here to represent. We call this morning to spirit, which is ever present, to help us respect the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. Be with this legislative body and guide them to seek justice, equity and compassion in the work that is before them today. Blessed be, aho and amen.”

    I can’t imagine what anyone could find objectionable in any of those words or the message they present.

    • Richard

      People without the truth in them wouldn’t see the problem.

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        What problems do you see, Richard?

        • Richard

          “I am the Lord your God. You should not have false gods before me.” – 1st commandment…for starters.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            So the problem you see is that it is not a prayer to the god you believe in.

            Aren’t much of a supporter of the 1st amendment, are you?

          • Richard

            I am a supporter of truth, not nonsense.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            So you believe the 1st amendment is nonsense? That’s unfortunate. Perhaps you would be happier living in another country. Perhaps Russia. They seem to be pretty good at stifling free speech.

  • Phipps Mike

    This is my hometown. The majority of Wiccans there believe in dark wicca (an imaginary thing), and they would see the acceptance of this prayer as acceptance of their hocus pocus nonsense.

    • Paul Hiett

      “an imaginary thing”

      Oh, the irony…

      • Richard

        Paul, don’t you think it’s illogical to tell people who already know God is real that he doesn’t exist?

        • Paul Hiett

          Psst…nobody knows if their choice of a deity is real.

          You simply don’t know the difference between “believe” and “know”.

          • Richard

            > nobody knows if their choice of a deity is real.

            I do. Multiple billions of others over 2000 years do, too. Why do you continue to lie about this? I already told you I know God is real. Did you forget?

            >You simply don’t know the difference between “believe” and “know”.

            Here you go again telling others what they know and don’t know. Do you know how unhealthy that is?

          • Paul Hiett

            Mass belief in something is not proof of its existence.

            If that were the case, Allah would be real, Jehovah for the Jews…you’d also have to accept that Odin and Zeus and Jupiter are all real because there used to be millions of followers too.

            And yes, I can claim, 100%, that no one knows if their deity is real. Again, you simply don’t know the difference between “know” and “believe”.

          • Richard

            > Mass belief in something is not proof of it’s existence.

            Who said it did?

            > And yes, I can claim, 100%, that no one knows if their deity is real.

            That would be lying again. Dismissing the truth doesn’t negate it.

            > Again, you simply don’t know the difference between “know” and “believe”.

            Yes, I do. Prove I don’t? Otherwise, yours is just another misinformed dogmatic assertion.

            Why is it that homosexuals have to lie so much? It seems you’ve gotten so used to lying to yourself that they just fall onto the page.

          • Paul Hiett

            Very well, prove your deity is real. You are the one claiming it exists, so by that claim, it should be easy to prove.

            I await your proof.

          • Richard

            You need to first prove I don’t know the difference between ‘know’ and ‘believe.’ Can you?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, you claim to know your choice of a deity is real. Since no one can possibly know this at all, such a claim is either a lie, or you don’t know the difference.

            It’s one of the two.

            Now, back to your proof…

          • Richard

            >Since no one can possibly know this at all, such a claim is either a lie, or you don’t know the difference.

            That’s an opinion, but not proof. Do you have any?

          • Paul Hiett

            Waiting for you to prove that your deity is real.

          • Richard

            You made another assertion, which I asked you to prove. If you can’t prove it, you out-and-out lied…again. Do you want one more shot to clear your name?

          • Paul Hiett

            If you can’t prove your deity is real, then I am right. That’s what it hinges on.

            You have a chance to prove me wrong.

          • Richard

            I’ll take your last comment to mean you can’t prove your assertion. This means you lied about that, too.

            Just in the last 24 hours:

            1. You lied about Nick From Detroit yesterday.

            2. You lied about no one knowing God is real.

            3. You lied about me not knowing the difference between ‘know’ and ‘believe.’

            Based on your track record, you are a habitual liar, Paul. I find that type of behavior reprehensible.

            “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.” – 2 Thess 2:9-10

          • Paul Hiett

            Why can’t you prove me wrong? I haven’t lied about anything, btw…Nick brought up Hippolytus, I simply pointed out that he came up with Dec 25 based on his idea that March 25 was the date of creation.

            How is that lying? Yeah, didn’t think so.

            So again, waiting for you to prove your deity is real. Why are you ignoring the question?

          • Richard

            > I haven’t lied about anything,

            You lied the three times I listed. I generally don’t interact with habitual liars because you can’t trust anything that comes out of their mouths. You fit that description. My conversation with you has ended.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ah yes, the old “I can’t prove my point, so I’ll throw a tantrum about something I am going to make up and then claim I’m ending the conversation.”

            Have a great weekend Richard!

          • MisterPine

            You don’t recognize lies in other people Richard, and more worrisome is you don’t recognize them in yourself.

          • Richard

            You lied today yourself. You also prove untrustworthy.

          • MisterPine

            I did nothing of the kind.

          • Paul Hiett

            If you point out where he’s wrong, he considers that lying.

          • MisterPine

            I’m starting to wonder if he can find his butt with both hands.

          • Richard

            You just lied again. You and Paul prove to be habitual liars. You can’t be trusted either. My conversation ends with you too.

          • The Last Trump

            These two are regular trolls. Not interested in discussion, just mindless argument that spirals into nowhere. Really just attention starved. Ignore whenever possible. Drives ’em nuts.
            Shame and embarrass them the rest of the time. Quite easily considering the hateful and intolerant nonsense that comes out of their mouths. Everybody here knows what they’re all about. And everybody here knows that it’s ugly.
            Keep up the good fight! God bless! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            By “troll”, you mean people who routinely outsmart and humiliate you.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh, will they be along soon?
            Haven’t met THEM yet! 🙂

          • Parque_Hundido

            The rest of us have seen them day and night.

          • MisterPine

            Return to the conversation when you can admit your have lied, and you can stop making frivolous accusations of the same towards your opponents.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            The only way to state that you know for certain that something is true is to provide proof of it. If you cannot provide proof then you cannot say for certain that it is true. You can certainly state that you BELIEVE it to be true but, without proof, to say that you KNOW it is true, would be without merit.

          • Richard

            You have it backwards. Paul made the claim I didn’t know God is real. It is up to him to prove his assertion. He couldn’t which means he lied. It’s not a hard concept to follow.

          • Paul Hiett

            All you have to do is prove that your deity is real, which would then prove me wrong.

            Until then, I’m right.

            Have a great weekend, Rich!!!

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            If you are unable to provide proof of “knowing” then, by default, Paul’s assertion becomes accurate.

            Using your logic, your inability to provide proof of your “knowing” means that you lied.

            It’s not a hard concept to follow.

          • Paul Hiett

            For some reason, he can’t seem to grasp this simple logic.

          • Kara Connor

            I think we’ve soundly established that his grasp of logic is at best, tenuous.

          • Richard

            You don’t seem to be grasping the obvious. Paul made the claim. That means he should have already known how to prove his assertion. I asked him to do that. He couldn’t. That means he lied.

            If he wasn’t certain about his suspicion, he should have asked to clarify before he dogmatically asserted.

            As such, Paul lied. Follow now?

            The point is, don’t make assertions you can’t prove.

      • Phipps Mike

        Paul, let me articulate further. The Bible tells of God. NOTHING tells of dark wicca because its a nonexistent religion.

        • Parque_Hundido

          You just told us about it. People in your town know about it, so someone obviously told them. Religion is not defined by canonical texts.

          • Phipps Mike

            wrong. A handful of kids who want to feel cool thinking you can cast dark spells on people MADE UP Dark Wicca. It is NOT a religion, it is the imagination of a bunch of stupid kids.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You are now helping to share dark Wicca. Thanks!

    • Parque_Hundido

      Fair enough. But how does that distinguish them from followers of other religions?

      • Phipps Mike

        it doesnt, I was merely pointing out an unintended consequence.

  • railhead

    Really it’s a sad statement for the state of Christianity as well as American politics. Let’s face it, the majority of politicians have never been Christian, they just pretended like it because they didn’t want to offend the perceived Christian majority. Hasn’t anyone ever heard of Bohemian Grove, where all the Republicans go dance naked in the California redwoods and practice sodomy? It was happening back in Ezekiel’s day, and he didn’t believe it, either, until God grabbed him by the hair of the head and showed him. (Eze. 8:3-8:18)

    But now, they just openly practice witchcraft. Even the “Christian majority” (which has never really existed either, it’s a strait gate and narrow way that few find according to the Bible)–but even that doesn’t scare them any more. Most modern Christian churches are so soft and “inclusive” that this witch would almost fit right in in an America church.

    • Paul Hiett

      Aaaaand…so? Are other beliefs not to be respected?

      • dimensio

        By allowing a non-Christian to offer an invocation in the legislature, the state is implicitly declaring that Christianity is not the official religion of the government.

        • Paul Hiett

          Isn’t that a good thing?

          • dimensio

            It is not, to champions of theocracy.

          • Paul Hiett

            Well no, but a theocracy is a horrid, horrid idea.

          • railhead

            I love it how people say a thoecracy is a horrid idea but probably haveno idea what one would even look like. The Bible outlines a government that is probably the most libertarian government that mankind has ever
            seen.

            There is ony one branch of government, the judicial. The
            laws only take up about a quarter of the Bible, so probably a couple of hundred pages of legislation, PERIOD. NOT 5000 pages in one bill with pork and kickbacks on every other page.

            There is no such thing as the police in God’s government. No worries about a guy with a badge and gun getting a power trip. The people are there own police force. You see a crime being committed YOU lay hands on him and drag him to the
            judge. The punishments are very simple. No prison full of people locked in cages like animals. You either get a whipping (don’t say it’s inhumae while you allow thug prison guards to pepper spray naked inmates, and taze them), make restitution (pay back whatever you stole 4 times) or get the death penalty.

            Sounds a lot more free than anything I’ve seen in my life.

          • Bill

            that sounds horrific

          • railhead

            What’s horrific about it? You don’t want the responsibility of policing your own neighborhood? You’d rather some doughnut chomping goon show up and say “sorry your car got stolen, nothing we can do about it, I’ll file a report if you really want me to.”

            Or rather your neighbor get arrested for growing a plant in their back yard and thrown into a jail where he is stripped naked and ogled by a bunch of closet gays, and put in an orange jumpsuit for 5 years, completely destroying his life because of his “criminal record”?

            I mean, come on. We are just as barbaric and sick as any Muslim nation, in a lot of ways.

          • Bill

            order is only way a society can function what you’ve described is chaos.

          • railhead

            How is it chaotic? I’m a bit baffled, because I look at American politics and think it’s chaotic. People don’t even know which bathroom to use any more.

          • Nhdriver

            Most people who visit a place where religion is the dominate theme discover that they like flush toilets that work.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You must not get out much.

          • railhead

            OK. Nice rhetorical attempt at a counterpoint without actually saying anything of any value or intelligence. Are you an American politician by any chance?

          • Parque_Hundido

            You must not get out much. Or watch the news.

            Most people have a very clear idea of what a theocracy looks like. Iran is in the news every single day.

            Theocracy is the polar opposite to our political system. I appreciate your candor but I’m still horrified that you openly advocate for such a deeply evil idea.

          • railhead

            I’m not advocating for an Islamic state. That’s not a theocracy. There is nothing in the Bible that says to kill all infidels, or promises heaven to suicide bombers.

            The law of the Lord, however, is perfect. And some day, it will be the law of the whole world for 1000 years. As for calling it evil, be careful:

            Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

            Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

          • Parque_Hundido

            You misunderstand the word. And the bible.

          • dimensio

            A society that legally mandates capital punishment for disobedient children and that offers rapists the option of marrying their victims in lieu of any other punitive measure is one that espouses values that I cannot share. Others would also refuse to accept such values, and rebellion would be inevitable.

        • Parque_Hundido

          It is not the official religion. That is explicit, not implicit.

  • Richard

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. – 2 Timothy 4:3-4

  • http://www.soundcloud.com/alatorrismmusic Dante Alatorre

    I think it’s funny people forget this quote “I came not to bring peace, but a sword”, Yes I would pray for a wiccan to find the one true God, but I don’t think we should kick God out of our country because a bunch of witches want to worship falseness.

  • Richard

    “Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

    “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.” – 2 Peter 3:3-10 (an eye witness of Christ)

    • Parque_Hundido

      I would say you probably need to up your dose of anti-psychotics.

  • hugs4u

    there is only one true religion and that is Christanity. But this country was founded to be free to either worship as you choose or to not worship anything if you so wish to be a heathen. So when it comes to the government, it is for all people with what ever thinking they so choose. So in light of that fact, wiccans and the rest of the odd balls have a right to deliver the invocation as well as the Christians do. And also should do it in Washington DC, also. but it is so funny that the tea nuts who took Christ out of Christian with their thinking would complain about others non real believers. For if Jesus would appear today, he would not even recognize the tea nuts as his followers.

    • Nhdriver

      Fascinating post if I might say. Good form and direction but a slight overdose of venom. If I might say

  • Bill

    why can’t you pigs just accept that this is a secular nation?

  • http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com Trevor Thomas

    It’s VERY telling that a Democrat would invite a witch to speak her pagan beliefs over a legislative body. This again confirms today’s Democrats as the party of the godless. (Remember the 2012 Democrat Convention? See: http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com/2012/09/the-party-of-godless.html)

    And then to say that such speech was “very inclusive.” Most modern liberals have a difficult time understanding the mutually exclusive nature of real faith. There’s nothing “inclusive” about speech that directly contradicts what Jesus taught. America must decide whose morality is going govern us.

    • Bill

      it’s called freedom of religion. every religion has the right to preform an invocation and you have the right to sit down, shut-up and listen

      • http://www.trevorgrantthomas.com Trevor Thomas

        But I thought this was “a secular nation?”

        • Bill

          yes which is why we either allow every religion in or none of them.

    • Parque_Hundido

      That decision has been made. We’ve chosen a secular state. Sorry!

  • Webb

    This is just Satanic Democrats coming out of the closet. Keep it up.

    • Bill

      she was a wiccan not a satanist you ignorant pig

      • Andrew

        who was she praying to?

        • Bill

          don’t know don’t care

  • Andrew

    Well, history has proven and time again is proving what throwing God out of your country looks like. You certainly reap what you sow!!

    The world WILL be brought to it’s knees..it’s not a matter of IF, but WHEN!

    • Nhdriver

      I agree, By people who push Bronze Age superstition. You know, The Big 3 as it were.

  • Marie Adigwe

    Well, if Christians can say prayers at a state legislature, then why shouldn’t people from other faiths get to pray? I’m sure this woman has tolerantly sat through many Christian prayers. Besides, maybe if they understood Wicca a little better, they wouldn’t judge her so much. After all, I’ve read their doctrines, and it tells them to do strictly good works and to be tolerant and respectful of others and nature. It’s probably one of the more pleasant and less violent religions.

  • Bolvon72

    Can’t share the prayer… narrow minded losers… weak minded as well.

  • Bolvon72

    How weak is your god that his followers can’t stand near another religion?

  • Parque_Hundido

    It’s so sad to see Christians acting like petulant children, throwing temper tantrums just because they aren’t in control of every last detail of the legislature.

    Hats off to Iowa for supporting the true meaning of freedom of religion.

    Thumbs down to the petulant, childish “Christians” who couldn’t bring themselves to show respect for those of another faith.they should be ashamed of themselves.

  • Angel Nova

    what do atheists believe ? nothing.

  • Richard Keith Ross

    Look up, everyone, your redemption draweth nigh! I have been watching events unfold since September 2001 and have witnessed evil getting more prevalent. From the US President on down, evil is in control. Now my state has given in. Any one of my elected representatives that did not leave will have a much harder time getting reelected…but, money always wins with Satan to deceive those into believing what they want so they get elected in the first place. Had I been there, I would have recited my Lord…..Satan, be gone! Not one had the faith or moral courage to do so which also says a lot about their character.

    • Paul Hiett

      So, just to be clear, you would have been rude, insulting,and completely intolerant of her beliefs, right?

  • Cindy Bowen

    And christians wonder why some of us feel the way we do about them?! SMH. If you can’t respect how can we respect you?

  • Reason2012

    John 15:18-19 “[Jesus said] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”

    It’s how you can know the truth of God – they love all the false religions praying – but when it’s about Christ, the utmost of hate comes forth from everyone, proving their conscience knows the only truth of God.

  • Celephais

    As a Christian who spent twelve years as a Wiccan, I think the problem is a result of the particular difference between how the two religions view the nature of truth. Christianity is exclusive, as it should be, since it teaches that only one God exists and has revealed the truth about Himself in Christ. Therefore, He is dishonored when people He has created for Himself worship gods they invent for themselves, which are not gods but demons disguised as gods to fool the unwary. Wiccans believe in no divine revelation, or in a subjective one particular to the individual, so they have no dogmas except “Thou shalt not impose thy truths upon another.” At least theoretically (in practice, they tend to oppose exclusive religions), they believe all gods are equal. Whatever people may think of these differences, they determine how the various people in the situation think and act. Each side thinks it is right according to its own beliefs, so which one really is right depends on whose beliefs are true. Having been a dedicated partisan of both, I believe there are good reasons for accepting Christianity as true. But since each side commits its emotions as well as thoughts to its own principles, unleashingemotional attacks against each other only makes the other side defensive and hostile. This may be satisfying to those who want a fight, but it discourages the mutual understanding on which alone a constructive conversation can continue.

    • Paul Hiett

      I think the real problem is the inability for Christians to tolerate different beliefs.

      • MisterPine

        Great cartoon I saw: A Christian beating a gay man over the head with a sign, calling him sodomite, pervert, degenerate. The gay man grabbing the sign and breaking it over his knee, and the Christian screaming “Stop disrespecting my faith!”

        That is this place in a nutshell. They are basically standing up for their right to hate.

      • Celephais

        Depends on what you mean by “tolerate,” Paul. If “tolerate” has the classical meaning of “acknowledge the right of others to differ”, then I disagree with your assessment, since many Christians, including myself, acknowledge that. If “tolerate” has the contemporary (false and relativist) meaning of “acknowledging that all beliefs are equally true for those who hold them,” then Christians are not the only intolerant people. Anyone but a postmodernist is intolerant under that definition, including atheists. It is self-refuting, yet many accept it anyway, and criticize others for refusing to do so. We Christians believe that there is one infinitely wise God who has revealed certain truths to humanity that apply to everyone, whether they believe them or not. Atheists such as yourself believe that the statement ” no such God exists” is true for anyone, whether they believe it or not. So tell me why the one is intolerant and the other not.

        • Paul Hiett

          So what’s wrong with sitting silently in respect for another persons beliefs once or twice a year, whereas they appear to be doing so for the majority of the time?

          • Celephais

            Wiccans find it easier to do that because they generally see no eternal consequences resulting from one’s beliefs. Christians do. Wiccans generally think it doesn’t matter what people believe as long as they are polite (although they sometimes fail to live up to that ideal when relating to types of Christianity they feel threatened by). Christians hold that what one believes largely determines whether one spends eternity in creative, fulfilling joy or miserable, lost, and hopeless desolation. This belief leads us to react differently than Wiccans do to different views. We feel that it’s more important to tell people about the love God has for them than to win their good opinion by leaving beliefs that will bring them eternal misery unchallenged.

  • sblessley

    ““I thought to myself, ‘What would Jesus do?’” he stated. “Jesus would be in the chamber from my perspective. He would passively protest and then He would seek that individual out and have a peaceful conversation with them about why His way was the best way, and so that is what I did today.”

    – exactly what would Jesus have to protest about in the woman’s clearly inclusive address?

  • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

    I found it a bit weird to introduce a member of the Wicca community in such a matter. Weird in this is the first time I’ve seen this in State Legislature. Christian’s do this often according to people that pray after meetings etc. I don’t know if she/they use any magic as they call it, or follow Alister Crowley’s methods like J Ron Hubbard did and I would be cautious as a Christian to be a part of prayer like this situation. That is me. Others may not agree, but again I’m a Christian. My beliefs are led by Jesus only. After looking over the definition of Wicca, I personally would stay away from their practices. Wicca is described on Wikipedia, and made me uncomfortable after all things are considered.

  • Bingo

    I am proud of the Christians there and their loving attitude toward this woman.

  • Nick_from_Detroit

    UPDATE: Barronelle Stutzman, the Christian florist who has been mercilessly attacked and sued by homo-fascists has received OVER $150,000, so far!!!!
    Thanks, homo-fascists!

    Here is Mrs. Stutzman’s GoFundMe page:
    http://www.gofundme.com/mz6zm4

    Perhaps, all of you haters out there could listen to the gay community, who are ashamed of all of you. People like Courtney Hoffman & Buz Smith, who both donated to the Indiana pizza shop owners GoFundMe page. And, who both denounced all of the hateful attacks on those poor people.
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/07/gay-woman-apologizes-to-christian-owned-indiana-pizzeria-sends-donation/

    You haters could only raise 650 bucks! Losers!

    • Parque_Hundido

      The queer community is delighted to hear this news. This means that Ms. Stutzman an additional $160,000 in damages in the civil suit she is currently facing and will certainly lose.

      Under Washington business law,Ms. Stutzman is liable for judgments up to the full amount of her personal net worth. With this donation, the victims of her unlawful discrimination are GUARANTEED TO WIN THE SUM TOTAL OF ALL DONATIONS!!!

      As you can imagine, the queer community is absolutely thrilled to learn that the gay couple in Washington state will be personally profiting from the donations made by anti-gay extremists.

      SPREAD THE NEWS!!!

  • Parque_Hundido

    The queer community is delighted to hear this news. This means that Ms. Stutzman an additional $160,000 in damages in the civil suit she is currently facing and will certainly lose.

    Under Washington business law,Ms. Stutzman is liable for judgments up to the full amount of her personal net worth. With this donation, the victims of her unlawful discrimination are GUARANTEED TO WIN THE SUM TOTAL OF ALL DONATIONS!!!

    As you can imagine, the queer community is absolutely thrilled to learn That the gay couple in Washington state will be personally profiting from the donations of radical, anti-gay extremists.

    SPREAD THE NEWS!!!!

  • Kouhaku

    Ever heard of separation of church and state? It’s kind of a thing.

  • GinnyLee

    “Many people know Liz Bennett through her work as a volunteer and Regional
    Organizer for “One Iowa”, where she worked to preserve the freedom to
    marry for all Iowans.”

    “One Iowa” is the state’s leading lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender
    (LGBT) organization working toward full equality for LGBT individuals in
    Iowa through grassroots efforts and education.”

    Now, Liz Bennett wants to bring pagan prayer into the legislative body. Is anyone seeing a pattern here?

  • snowmobilejer

    I used to live in Des Moines, and to me anyway, it felt like a very oppressed dark place.