Oklahoma Attorney General Vows to Protect School Bible Distributions After Atheist Complaint

OK AG Pruitt Credit Gage SkidmoreOKLAHOMA CITY, Okla. — The attorney general of Oklahoma is vowing to protect Bible distributions at public schools after a prominent atheist activist organization sent letters throughout the state in an effort to stop the activity.

As previously reported, the Madison, Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF) sent a letter to 26 Oklahoma school districts in February after it was made aware that Jamison Faught, son of Rep. George Faught (R-Muskogee), had distributed Bibles with Gideon International to schools throughout the state.

“It is unconstitutional for public school districts to permit the distribution of Bibles as part of the public school day,” the letter, written by Staff Attorney Andrew Seidel, reads. “Courts have uniformly held that the distribution of bibles to students at public schools is prohibited.”

The correspondence also likened Gideon International to child predators in sharing the Scriptures with children.

“Parents carefully instruct their children not to accept any gifts from strangers. The Gideon practice of distributing bibles to schoolchildren teaches them to ignore that guidance,” Seidel stated. “This predatory conduct is inappropriate and should raise many red flags.”

He asked that districts prohibit Bible distributions from taking place again on public school grounds.

But Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt sent a letter to districts throughout the state on Tuesday urging superintendents not to give in to the complaint nor to be swayed by “veiled legal threats.”

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“Few things are as sacred and as fundamental to Oklahomans as the constitutional rights of free speech and the free exercise of religion,” he wrote. “It is a challenging time in our country for those who believe in religious liberty. Our religious freedoms are under constant attack from a variety of groups who seek to undermine our constitutional rights and threaten our founding principles.”

Pruitt said that it is not unlawful for religious material to be made available to students on campus despite FFRF’s claims.

“The Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed lawsuits around the country to aggressively advance its agenda,” he stated. “The group has contacted more than one Oklahoma school with misrepresentations regarding the law, including the false categorical assertion that the law prohibits distribution of religious literature in public schools.”

He advised school districts to enact policies that are neutral in allowing for equal access in the free exercise of religion and “to ensure the maximum level of freedom for the citizens of this state.”

Rep. Faught is also supportive of the right of private citizens to distribute religious literature, and doesn’t believe that officials should back down for the atheist organization, which he says uses “scare tactics.”

“Passing out the scriptures—you certainly can’t be blamed for that,” he told the Associated Press in February. “The great thing about Oklahoma is that I’ve been at a lot of school activities where—at least in our area—we still pray before football games. Some people pray before meetings and certainly honor our God-given rights.”

Jamison Faught told the New American that student receipt of the Bibles is completely voluntary.

“We don’t force Bibles on anybody. We simply ask if anyone would like them,” he said.

Photo: Gage Skidmore


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  • Paul Hiett

    Maybe it will raise the literacy rate in that state…

    • TheBBP

      I find it so odd that you go into many of the articles here and accuse OTHER people of being hateful. You are a very bitter and hateful man.

      • Paul Hiett

        Lighten up Francis, I live in Texas…we make fun of Oklahomans on a daily basis.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          Well I grew up in Oklahoma, and we make of people from…..oh…wait…..yeah….we make fun of people from Oklahoma, too.

          • Paul Hiett

            Dirty Okie!!!!

  • bowie1

    “We don’t force Bibles on anybody. We simply ask if anyone would like them,” he said. This sounds voluntary to me so I would say it is completely constitutional since the school is not the sponsor. Besides secularists have no qualms in making their particular agenda mandatory and I’m not talking about reading, writing and arithmetic – the essentials of learning.

    • Rebus Caneebus

      Then prepare to have Satanists and Pastafarians demanding the same right to distribute literature.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        I LOVE Pastafarianism — I’m going out to a holy spegetti ceremony right now, you’ve got me hungry and salavating for my salvation at the mere mention!

        Where’s my holy colander?
        .

    • Brudder

      Only if they allow equal access to other groups; like Muslims, Wiccans, Satanists even the dreaded Atheists. They cannot restrict access to just the Gideons.

      What exactly are the secularists promoting in schools? Is there a religious fallacy class?

    • Ambulance Chaser

      I couldn’t find any cases in the 10th Circuit or the Oklahoma federal courts, but I did find one appellate-level decision that covers this issue from the 7th Circuit. The court held that whether students were forced to take a bible or not is irrelevant, and that schools simply shouldn’t be running the program at all.

      “They could have chosen not to accept a Bible or to return it later,
      but this form of dissent is insufficient, as the fifth graders were
      compelled to sit through the Gideons’ presentation. Moreover, the act
      of accepting a Bible in front of other students, with the option of
      returning it later privately or choosing not to read it, signals accord
      with the Gideons’ beliefs. Presumably, the fifth graders could make a
      public show of not accepting the Bible, just as students could walk out
      of the graduation ceremony in Lee, or leave during the scriptural
      reading in Abington, but the First Amendment prohibits the government
      from putting children in this difficult position.” Berger v. Rensselaer Central School Corp. 982 F.2d 1160

      • bowie1

        When I was in grade 8 we read a small passage from a Gideon Bible each morning, but at least one fellow seemed hostile to reading from it, but he did so anyway in a sarcastic tone. At the end of the year he ripped up his little bible which perhaps a bit of a shock for a 13 year old like myself. Not all kids are reluctant to make their response known.

        • roald

          But many are reluctant. The handout was improper.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Why must that child deal with state establishment of religion at all?
          .

    • Sarah Jones Geer

      Except it wasn’t voluntary- the issue was that a TEACHER was passing them out during class time. That’s unconstitutional endorsement.

    • roald

      Don’t you think that the teacher is both an agent of the State and an authority figure to the students? Don’t you think there is peer pressure?

      If a teacher taught that religion was wrong or bad or passed out books claiming atheism is the only truth, I would have a problem. That; however, is not what what is happening in our schools.

      What would you say about a teacher handing out the Satanist Bible?

      • bowie1

        There could also be peer pressure NOT to take a Gideon Bible.

        • roald

          There could be, but I would not count on it in a non-urban school in Oklahoma.

          What would you say about a teacher handing out the Satanist Bible?

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          … or Constitutional pressure to avoid this situation altogether.
          .

  • morgan

    I guess there are no churches in Oklahoma where people can get bibles anytime if they want to. And, I’ll bet most children’s families in OK have bibles already.
    Going after someone else’s child in order to fill their heads with fear and loathing is predatory and criminal.

    • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

      The rights of Religion in the U.S. isn’t limited to church’s. If you look at Pakistan for instance, they are starving for Bibles. This is just voluntary nobody has to pick up a Bible. There is no pressure to even do so. The pressure comes from lawsuits after lawsuits from FFRF to remove anything to do with God in public places. That is an agenda that walks on the rights of religious freedoms.

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        “There is no pressure to even do so.”

        So you are in a classroom with 10 other children. They are passing out Bibles. Everyone is watching and can see which children take them, plus there are most likely smiles from the people passing it out when it is taken and no smiles when they don’t.

        So, children 1 – 8 take a bible. Now it comes to child 9. Child 9 doesn’t really want one – he’s Jewish. You really think that child is not going to feel any pressure to take a Bible?

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          Remember it is voluntary. I doubt they pass out Bibles in the classroom. I don’t think anyone is pressured to take a Bible. I think the use of peer pressure as an example probably doesn’t apply since a Jewish child may or may not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Equally as the attorney general said, I just don’t see any pressure other than the pressure by the atheist not wanting a Bible anywhere.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “I think the use of peer pressure as an example probably doesn’t apply since a Jewish child may or may not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.”

            Not too familiar with the Jewish faith, I take it.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Explain?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The single word sentence “explain” is an imperative, not a question.
            .

          • roald

            Except for a fringe group or two of self-proclaimed Jews, Jews do not believe Jesus is the messiah. If any individual does, most other Jews feel that person has become a Christian.

            If you do not like a Jewish child as an example, then substitute another religion or no religion where that reasoning cannot apply and then please comment on no peer pressure.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You keep saying that “nobody is pressured” so it’s okay. It is NOT okay. There is no precedent holding that state sponsorship of religion requires the state to exert some type of coercive pressure to make a given action unconstitutional.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I believe it to be ok. Just because it is based on God doesn’t mean it’s not ok. State sponsorship. You see, what you’re really saying or what I’m hearing is it’s ok for the FFRF to continue lawsuits against any entity government or cake mix person who doesn’t agree with their stand against religion. If you want it that way that is your business. I don’t want it that way and I will argue against the FFRF and vote into Government those people that are also standing against the FFRF.

          • KLB999

            So you wouldn’t have any problem with a teacher passing out copies of the Koran to students? Answer honestly or you’ll make the baby Jesus cry!

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            No. Especially if it were used for educational purposes. The Koran refers to Christ often as a prophet. While I believe he is our Savior, I still support Christ. No matter, I would not have a problem with the Koran passed out at public schools. In fact I would welcome my child, and me doing research using it, since I know little about it.

          • lindywise

            Absolutely not. That would be great! Then we could sit down together and I could show him/her scriptures like:

            Sahih International 5:33 Koran

            Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
            This is the easiest way to lead someone to Jesus Christ. I used the Koran to lead my very first convert to the Lord–and the bible of course. All I had to do was show that the word Love isnt in the Koran…not even once. Then I showed them all the times the word Love is used in the bible. Many many times. Once someone realizes that God is Love and that He loves you, and that He loved you so much He paid the price for your sins and took your death–so you wouldn’t die–who would want Allah? The one who says you go to “paradise” by killing, maiming, and hating those you don’t agree with. Read the koran…please! You will run into the forgiving, loving arms of Jesus faster than you can say I was wrong, please forgive me. Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

          • KLB999

            Sorry but only the logically illiterate would think that just because the Koran is full of bulls**tt, that makes the Bible any less idiotic. They’re both fairy tales for weak-minded fools.

          • lindywise

            Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Careful.

          • KLB999

            Yeah, that’s frightening.

          • Sssssnailyolater

            And this is coming from the same moron that consistently attempts to label others ‘ignorant bigots’? What a joke.

          • KLB999

            No attempt needed, O weak minded fool – they (you) ARE ignorant bigots i.e. ignorant of their own religion and others and bigoted toward any beliefs other than their own – which is why they think it’s OK to push their – and only their – religion on other people’s children. Since the comment to which I was replying has been deleted, you aren’t privy to the illogical argument that was made i.e. that the Koran is not good so the bible should be allowed to be pushed on children. But I suppose you would agree with that.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Athiest lawsuit against cake mix person?

            Inventing hyperbole and fabricating faleshoods here?
            __________

            You can vote in anyone you choose, including multiply divorced anti-science capitalist davidian idiots, again.

            The Constitution is still the supreme law of the land nonetheless.

            And the laws and pracices of your elected idiots will be thrown out at great expense to you and your suffering fellow citizen.
            __________

            You all SHOULD be shocked, SHOCKED that government would establish ANY religion, and demand clear demarcations between.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Not sure I understand the statement?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Get specific and we can discuss.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            about what?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Daydreaming?

            Quote the specific statement you do not understand (instead of making me guess), and then we can discuss that specific statement.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I have no clue what we are talking about here. I do see something funny. You are up voting you’re own post? Hilarious, sorry no offense.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            143rd explanation on Disqus:

            I use the ^ v markers as bookmarks so when I return to a thread, I know how far I have reviewed as I scroll new posts.

            Disqus does not count self-votes in it’s totals.
            __________

            If you cannot re-read my post before your “I don’t understand” post, then

            (a) your comments was waste of time and

            (b) try quoting next time.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I don’t wish to

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yes, I know, you don’t wish to dialog and communicate, and risk actually understanding someone else, and riak evolving your beliefs.

            Grow or die.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I wouldn’t grow through any perspective that you are presenting, primarily because of your approach. It makes no sense to continue to see your phrasing differently yet stating the same thing over and over again. When you begin to present ideas, or ideals, that is when we can have a logical conversation. Attacking one’s person is a logical fallacy, and not worthy of a response.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            While I appreciate your preference for un-Constitutional behaviors that you think serve you in some way, the only point will always be what is Constitutional or not.

            If you recognized the accused behavior as un-Constitutional, we could get somewhere.

            But you pretend that handing out bibles in public school during session it Constitutional.

            It is not.

            You can say there are other things to discuss.

            There are not.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            What part of passing out Bibles being accepted on a voluntary basis is not Constitutional. Again I state: The first amendment is not to stop religion in Government. It is to stop Government from mandating a religion. We have Freedom of religion for a reason. So that people like myself, and some 80% of our populace have the freedoms to talk about our particular beliefs in public and or private. Churches are not buildings they are people with common belief’s. That goes for Jews, Muslims, Christians, a wide array of religions. If we did not have those freedoms than the case could be made that the U.S. would be all atheist, or would be mandated or forced into a particular religion such as what IS radical terrorists are doing. I’m against that.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            What part of the government hnding out bibles (context: to under-age students involuntarily in pubic school during school session) could possibly be anything other than the state establishing religion?
            __________

            All your other stuff is Constitutionally irellevant — the Constitution doesn’t care if you or any percentage of the US is anything, religion wise, that’s not the purpose of the Constitution.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Answer the question. You like yours answered, just answer the question I presented to you.

          • lindywise

            That was beautiful. Thank you.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Thank you too. I appreciate you saying that.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’m shocked that you continue to argue the same thing over and over again. No not really not shocked at all. But by stating a phrase differently, doesn’t change the outcome. I stand by what I said. If you choose to continue it’s fine with me, but if you expect a different outcome you won’t get it. So, what is the point of continuing this exercise?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Google.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Stop misquoting misquotes: “… the atheist not wanting a Bible anywhere …”

            This is about the government establishing religion via a teacher handing out bibles in public school.
            .

          • lindywise

            Why don’t you find another site to troll, shill.

          • roald

            You did not read the article. The teacher did pass out Bibles in the classroom. Each student who chose to get one stood up and walked to the teacher to get a copy. A child who did not want one stood out.

            No Jewish child believes Jesus is the Messiah by definition. Jews who belong to Jews for Jesus claim to be Jews, but are not.

            I will let you in on a secret. No atheist cares whether you have a copy of your Bible in your desk drawer, your hands, your pockets, or wherever. The only thing that atheists ask is that you not favor one religion over another when you are acting as an agent of the State.

            Tell me why Christians cannot be content to push their religion in the church, in their home, on the streets, with their peers, over the airways and cables, in print, in the mail, and on the Internet, but cannot curb their actions for those times when they are acting as an agent of the state? What would have happened if the teacher had been passing out copies of the Satanic Bible?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Actually, it’s not up to anyone else who’s a Jew or not.

            Jesus’s disciples surely believed in him, and they were Jewish, for example.

            Jesus was Jewish.

            Being Jewish is genetic, can be acquired, and can be a choice, like many qualities of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
            .

          • roald

            I’m not sure of your point, but if you are making an excuse for Christians pushing their religion because Jesus’ first followers were Jewish, I suggest you read your history. Jews do not proselytize. If you are arguing my comment that Jews who say they follow Jesus are not Jews, I stand by it. As you pointed out, Jesus was a Jew. His followers were Jews who learned with their rebbe. There was no Christianity at that time. Had Jesus proclaimed a new religion, his Jewish followers would no longer have been Jews.

            You have; however, ignored my intent and have not answered my questions.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You were not asking ME any questions.

            I think most arguments here at this time involve @Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            And, no, you may not accept Jews-for-Jesus as Jews to you, but it’s not up to you if they are Jewish or not to themselves or to anyone else.

            Otherwise, I up-voted your post because I agreed with your general point.

            I only objecting to your waste of time trying to be the decider of who’s a Jew or not.

            Give it up.

            Your arguments do not need it.

            And it is disrespectful to other’s freedoms of self-determination and self-identification.

            And it gets you into sidetracked arguments that overwhelm your point.

            Arguments you can’t win …

            … because you didn’t speak for yourself about yourself.

            You did not say “… Hey, I’m a Jew-for-Jesus, and so I consider myself NOT a Jew …”

            I would not waste my time arguing anyone who speaks for themselves.
            .

          • roald

            True, I was not asking you any questions, so I apologize for that response. I see your point and thank you for the constructive feedback.

            I have given up on the dreamer. S/he is unable to walk a mile in the shoes of someone not like her/him.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The “Dreamer”, as you write, has apparently given up on themselves, too, unable to imagine the possibility of learning anything new, hence their own lack of purpose and function in discussing beyond round one.

            Too bad, as I’m refiguring out a lot of things here — I find this a very provocative discussion, and I’ve learned much from researching what is going on.

            Thanks for your constructive contributions, @roald.
            .

          • roald

            And thanks to you also for your constructive criticism.

          • lindywise

            Again, if my child brought home a satanic bible, we would sit down together and discuss the content. I would explain how certain people call on demons to do their bidding because they have a wicked heart and want to hurt people and that indeed, they belong to the devil. I have no fear as a Christian of any literature–whether it be on evolution, the occult, islam, judaism, buddhism, new age, goddess worship etc ad nauseam. Because, I know my bible and I know my God–and HE IS. Period. Nothing stands up to the word of God. That is why you are so threatened by it. Read it.

          • roald

            You, then, are one in a million. Most of the posters on this site have a hissy fit when their child has to learn something about Islam in a history class.

            You do not, however, know anything about satanism beyond what you saw in a movie.

            You do not know whether I have read the Bible and chosen not to believe. The only rationale you have is that I feel threatened, which I am, but not of what you think. I feel threatened that a bunch of intolerant people are acting to impose their religious beliefs on me and others. This is contrary to the basic beliefs of this nation.

        • lindywise

          Why are you so threatened by the Bible?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I’m not.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        They eat bibles in Pakistan?

        One way to address world hunger — bibles as food!

        No, the pressure comed from the government establishing religion — kids feel the pressure, especially if they are the odd one out saying “no thank you”.
        .

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          Again I don’t understand the statement. The government doesn’t establish religion. There is no mandated religion that the government established. What pressure does a child have in a setting where it is voluntary? The decision falls on the parent. If they want to be included in a group they can be. I stated that the solution would be a group setting. Maybe you missed that part. I don’t recall stating they eat Bibles in Pakistan. I recall stating that Pakistan’s people want Bibles. There are examples of Bibles being taken to Pakistan and people are grabbing them up as soon as they arrive. They want to have Bibles.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Public school is not voluntary.

            Children are not free agents.

            Distribution of bibles in Pakistan by presumably non-government folk to some people who are “hungry for bibles” (your words) has no relevance to the subject of this thread, but does suggest a destination for the Gideons.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Your not understanding what I’m saying. Accepting Bibles is voluntary. LOL, you didn’t understand what “hungry for Bibles” means? Ok then.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Nothing about school for children is voluntary.
            .

          • lindywise

            He is purposely baiting you. He is a troll. Don’t waste anymore energy, brother.

          • lindywise

            Distribution of your comments has no relevance to the subject either, and I would suggest another web destination for you. Repent, wicked man.

          • KLB999

            You are being deliberately obtuse. The teacher at a public school is an agent of the government. By passing out bibles while representing the government she is in fact establishing a government promotion of a specific religion. I and everyone else have to problem whatsoever if the teacher, on his or her own time or the Gideons want to go door-to-door passing out bibles. Or stand on a street corner passing them out or go to the mall and pass them out.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I disagree. You saw my post which you posted to. I’m glad you don’t have a problem with passing out Bibles. I go a bit further in stating I don’t mind passing out Bibles in public schools, or in government, both federal and state, that feel compelled to pray, have symbols of religion on state property etc. Government is not mandating that someone take a Bible, that again is a voluntary decision by a student, or a parent. Just as the Torah might be a similar book that could be passed out. It’s only the atheist that has a problem from what I am seeing. In that case an atheist or family member of an atheist family would have no reason to accept a Bible, so they would not be forced to as that would become a mandate.

          • KLB999

            Of course you don’t mind – you are a bigot who doesn’t mind the government favoring his own religion over others in spite of it being clearly unconstitutional. If you allow the presentation of Christianity, you must allow it for any and all other religions or atheists – not just the ones you think are “moral”.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Attacking one’s person in a discussion is a logical fallacy. It is not something I’m willing to respond to. If you would like to continue the discussion without references to me, and keep it within the context of the idea or ideals I’m willing to continue. Otherwise, have a great day.

          • roald

            OK. How about this as a response…

            Of course you don’t mind – you are someone who doesn’t mind the
            government favoring his own religion over others in spite of it being
            clearly unconstitutional. If you allow the presentation of Christianity,
            you must allow it for any and all other religions or atheists – not
            just the ones you think are “moral”.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Same thing you have continued to say. What is clear to you is completely inaccurate to me.

            Pruitt said that it is not unlawful for religious material to be made available to students on campus despite FFRF’s claims. I trust that the Attorney General knows what he is talking about.

          • roald

            And you continue to ignore my questions.

            The AG also said that the policy on distribution has to be neutral. I can’t wait for the Muslims, the Satanic Church, the Buddhists, and the Pastafarians to do the same. The easiest way for the schools to avoid children having to spend days in assembly or pass a gauntlet or holy book givers is to not allow the practice in their schools. Let their parents guide their religious path until they are old enough to make up their own minds.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’ll quote what our forefathers stated: Atheists continue to state Constitutional issues, I present you with other views.

            George Washington – First President of the United States of America

            “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

            – George Washington

            “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”

            – George Washington

            We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…

            – George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789

            Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.

            – George Washington, Prayer

            True religion affords to government its surest support.

            – George Washington

            It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

            – George Washington (this quote is unconfirmed)

            Samuel Adams – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

            – Samuel Adams

            We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.

            – Samuel Adams

            The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.

            – Samuel Adams

            The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

            – Samuel Adams

            United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God

            Congress printed a Bible for America and said:

            “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”

            – United States Congress 1782

            Congress passed this resolution:

            “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

            – United States Congress 1782

            By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:

            “In God We Trust”

            – United States Congress 1864

            John Adams -President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Ammendment

            The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

            – John Adams

            The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

            – John Adams

            The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

            – John Adams

            Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

            – John Adams

            I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

            – John Adams

            The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

            – John Adams

            [The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

            – John Adams

            As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.

            – John Adams

            We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

            – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomfirmed quote)

            Abigail Adams – Wife of John Adams

            “The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.”

            – Abigail Adams

            Patrick Henry – Early America Leader

            There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.

            – Patrick Henry

            It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

            – Patrick Henry (uncomfirmed quote)

            John Jay – First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

            Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

            – John Jay

            The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.

            – John Jay

            John Hancock – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            …that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.

            – John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791

            We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

            – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomformed quote)

            Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

            – Benjamin Rush

            Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.

            – Benjamin Rush

            Christianity is the only true and perfect religion…

            – Benjamin Rush

            John Witherspoon – Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress

            “He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”

            – John Witherspoon

            John Dickinson – Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress

            “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

            – John Dickinson

            Benjamin Franklin

            “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

            – Benjamin Franklin

            Thomas Jefferson – President

            God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.

            – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

            The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man

            – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

            Daniel Webster – Early American Politician

            Education is useless without the Bible.

            – Daniel Webster

            Noah Webster – “Schoolmaster of the Republic”

            Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.

            – Noah Webster

            In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

            – Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

            Joseph Story – Supreme Court Justice

            “I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

            – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829

            United States of America National Anthem – Francis Scott Key

            “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’”

            – USA National Anthem, Third Verse

            USA Constitution – First Ammendment

            “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

            – US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation

            Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [Christian denomination], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

            – US Constitution, First Ammendment (Christian religious freedom brackets added)

            Andrew Jackson – President of the United States of America

            “[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”

            – Andrew Jackson

            Abraham Lincoln – President of the United States of America

            In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            This nation under God

            – Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

            And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. (Matthew 18:7)

            – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

            We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

            – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

            Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…

            – Abraham Lincoln

            “Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulties.”

            – Abraham Lincoln, President, March 4, 1861 inaugural address

            United States Supreme Court

            “This is a Christian nation”

            – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

            “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”

            – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

            Washington Monument

            Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20)

            – Washington Monument

            Search the Scriptures (John 5:39)

            – Washington Monument

            The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7)

            – Washington Monument

            May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence

            – Washington Monument

            In God We Trust

            – Washington Monument

            “Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”)

            – Washington Monument

            James Madison – A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America

            “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

            – James Madison

            “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”

            – James Madison

            “Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”

            – James Madison

            Northwest Ordinance – July 13, 1787

            Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

            – Northwest Ordinance, Article 3

            Original Harvard University Student Handbook 1636

            Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well: the main end of his life and studies is “to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life” (John 17.3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Prov. 2.3).

            – Original Harvard University Student Handbook

            William McGuffy – author of McGuffy Reader, which was used for over 100 years in American schools as the primary textbook

            The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has this author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.

            – William McGuffy, author of McGuffy Reader

            Congress – First Prayer in Congress

            O LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.

            – First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia

            Calvin Coolidge- President of the United States of America

            “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

            – Calvin Coolidge

            Harry S. Truman – President of the United States of America

            “The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”

            – Harry S. Truman

            “This Nation was established by men who believed in God. … You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand.’

            – Harry S. Truman

            Dwight D. Eisenhower – President of the United States of America

            “Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God’s help, it will continue to be.”

            – Dwight D. Eisenhower

            “I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism.”

            – Theodore Roosevelt, President

            “This is a Christian nation.”

            – Harry Truman, President

            “[The United States is] founded on the principles of Christianity”

            – Franklin D. Roosevelt, President

            Ronald Reagan – President of the United States of America

            Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.

            – Ronald Reagan

            Deep religious beliefs stemming from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible inspired many of the early settlers of our country, providing them with the strength, character, convictions, and faith necessary to withstand great hardship and danger in this new and rugged land. These shared beliefs helped forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies — a sense of community which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.

            – Ronald Reagan

            The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers’ abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible’s teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

            – Ronald Reagan

            For centuries the Bible’s emphasis on compassion and love for our neighbor has inspired institutional and governmental expressions of benevolent outreach such as private charity, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and the abolition of slavery.

            – Ronald Reagan

            “The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in shaping the history and character of this Nation, and so many of its citizens, has by Senate Joint Resolution 165 authorized and requested the President to designate the year 1983 as the ‘Year of the Bible.’”‘

            – Ronald Reagan

            Inside the Bible’s pages lie the answers to all the problems that mankind has ever known. I hope Americans will read and study the Bible.

            – Ronald Reagan

          • roald

            Nice bunch of quotes. I read a few and realized that you do not get the point. Atheists don’t care whether individuals, even presidents, are religious. They do not want to remove religion from this nation. They so want government out of religion and religion out of government. People can be highly religious on their own time, but need to leave that at the door when they go to work as an agent of the State. Most of your quotes show individual religious beliefs, not its role in government. A few are not quotes from the people to which they are attributed. St. Ronnie is not a good role model.

            Let me offer a few quotes from the founders, which directly reflect their feelings on mixing religion and government.

            “If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”

            ~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789

            “Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind,
            those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.”

            ~Founding Father George Washington, letter to Edward Newenham, October 20, 1792

            “We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the
            light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition… In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man’s religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States.”

            ~Founding Father George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793

            “The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the
            first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use
            of reason and the senses.”

            ~John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” 1787-1788

            “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

            ~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

            “Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus
            founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

            ~Founding Father John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

            “We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men
            of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”

            ~Founding FatherJohn Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

            “I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the
            whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802

            “In every country and in every age, the priest has been
            hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

            “Question with boldness even the existence of a God;
            because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

            “I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799

            “History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the
            lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in letter to Alexander von Humboldt, December 6, 1813

            “Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an
            important part of every person’s life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption
            within religion. Erecting the “wall of separation between church and state,” therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. We have solved … the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson: in a speech to the Virginia Baptists, 1808

            “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

            “The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”

            ~Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”

            “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed,
            as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

            ~Founding Father James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

            “Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.”

            ~Founding Father James Madison, letter, 1822

            “Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion
            and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”

            ~Founding Father James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, Ecclesiastical Endowments

            “It is only when the people become ignorant and corrupt,
            when they degenerate into a populace, that they are incapable of exercising the sovereignty. Usurpation is then an easy attainment, and an usurper soon found. The people themselves become the willing instruments of their own debasement and ruin. Let us, then, look to the great cause, and endeavor to preserve it in full force. Let us by all wise and constitutional measures promote intelligence among the people as the best means of preserving our liberties.”

            ~Founding Father James Monroe, First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1817

            “When a religion is good, I conceive it will support
            itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it’s a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.”

            ~Founding Father Benjamin Franklin, letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780

            “Manufacturers, who listening to the powerful invitations
            of a better price for their fabrics, or their labor, of greater
            cheapness of provisions and raw materials, of an exemption from the chief part of the taxes burdens and restraints, which they endure in the old world, of greater personal independence and consequence, under the operation of a more equal government, and of what is far more precious
            than mere religious toleration–a perfect equality of religious
            privileges; would probably flock from Europe to the United States to pursue their own trades or professions, if they were once made sensible of the advantages they would enjoy, and were inspired with an assurance of encouragement and employment, will, with difficulty, be induced to transplant themselves, with a view to becoming cultivators of the land.”

            ~Founding Father Alexander Hamilton: Report on the Subject of Manufacturers December 5, 1791

            “In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all
            ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind.”

            ~Samuel Adams, The Rights of the Colonists (1771)

            “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator,
            and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forebearance, love, and charity towards each other.”

            ~Founding Father George Mason, Virginia Bill of Rights, 1776

            “It is contrary to the principles of reason and justice
            that any should be compelled to contribute to the maintenance of a church with which their consciences will not permit them to join, and from which they can derive no benefit; for remedy whereof, and that equal liberty as well religious as civil, may be universally extended to
            all the good people of this commonwealth.”

            ~Founding Father George Mason, Virginia Declaration of Rights, 1776

            “A man of abilities and character, of any sect whatever,
            may be admitted to any office or public trust under the United States. I am a friend to a variety of sects, because they keep one another in order. How many different sects are we composed of throughout the United States? How many different sects will be in congress? We cannot enumerate the sects that may be in congress. And there are so many now
            in the United States that they will prevent the establishment of any one sect in prejudice to the rest, and will forever oppose all attempts to infringe religious liberty. If such an attempt be made, will not the alarm be sounded throughout America? If congress be as wicked as we are foretold they will, they would not run the risk of exciting the resentment of all, or most of the religious sects in America.”

            ~Founding Father Edmund Randolph, address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 10, 1788

            “I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church — an equality
            in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments — but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government.”

            ~Founding Father Rufus King, Rufus King: American Federalist, pp. 56-57

            “A general toleration of Religion appears to me the best
            means of peopling our country… The free exercise of religion hath stocked the Northern part of the continent with inhabitants; and altho’ Europe hath in great measure adopted a more moderate policy, yet the profession of Protestantism is extremely inconvenient in many places there. A Calvinist, a Lutheran, or Quaker, who hath felt these inconveniences in Europe, sails not to Virginia, where they are felt perhaps in a (greater degree).”

            ~Patrick Henry, observing that immigrants flock to places where there is no established religion, Religious Tolerance, 1766

            “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”

            ~Founding Father Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731

            “Knowledge and liberty are so prevalent in this country,
            that I do not believe that the United States would ever be disposed to establish one religious sect, and lay all others under legal disabilities. But as we know not what may take place hereafter, and any such test would be exceedingly injurious to the rights of free citizens, I cannot think it altogether superfluous to have added a clause, which
            secures us from the possibility of such oppression.”

            ~Founding Father Oliver Wolcott, Connecticut Ratifying Convention, 9 January 1788

            “Some very worthy persons, who have not had great
            advantages for information, have objected against that clause in the constitution which provides, that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. They have been afraid that this clause is unfavorable to religion. But my countrymen, the sole purpose and effect of it is to exclude persecution, and to secure to you the important right of religious liberty. We are almost the only people in the world, who have a
            full enjoyment of this important right of human nature. In our country every man has a right to worship God in that way which is most agreeable to his conscience. If he be a good and peaceable person he is liable to no penalties or incapacities on account of his religious sentiments; or
            in other words, he is not subject to persecution. But in other parts of the world, it has been, and still is, far different. Systems of religious error have been adopted, in times of ignorance. It has been the interest of tyrannical kings, popes, and prelates, to maintain these errors. When the clouds of ignorance began to vanish, and the people grew more enlightened, there was no other way to keep them in error, but to prohibit their altering their religious opinions by severe
            persecuting laws. In this way persecution became general throughout Europe.”

            ~Founding Father Oliver Ellsworth, Philip B Kurland and Ralph Lerner
            (eds.), The Founder’s Constitution, University of Chicago Press, 1987,
            Vol. 4, p. 638

            “Persecution is not an original feature in any religion;
            but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions
            established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”

            ~Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

            “God has appointed two kinds of government in the world,
            which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government.”

            ~Founding Father Isaac Backus, An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty, 1773

            “Congress has no power to make any religious establishments.”

            ~Founding Father Roger Sherman, Congress, August 19, 1789

            “The American states have gone far in assisting the
            progress of truth; but they have stopped short of perfection. They ought to have given every honest citizen an equal right to enjoy his religion and an equal title to all civil emoluments, without obliging him to tell his religion. Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination,
            is so far slavery and bigotry.”

            ~Founding Father Noah Webster, calling for no religious tests to serve in public office, Sketches of American Policy, 1785

            “The legislature of the United States shall pass no law on the subject of religion.”

            ~Founding Father Charles Pinckney, Constitutional Convention, 1787

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            This is a good post. I appreciate your quotes, and I appreciate the last the most. We as Christians, or I’ll speak for myself, do not have fear and do not hide behind a blindfold. I appeal to reason. This is a reasonable comment, in that you have explained at least what you’re viewpoint is in regards to atheism. So I thank you for your explanation.

          • roald

            Thank you for your kind response. I hope our interchange has led us both to grow.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            If in fact you will in some way change your perspective concerning Satanism, I’m glad to continue our discussion. That is one of the things I cannot accept as a Christian. I believe Satanism is evil incarnate. If you feel you cannot, then please respect my position to leave our conversations. I thank you for being kind, and only feel the necessity to point out one piece of our conversation that is very high on my list of people I cannot converse with. I hope you understand.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Muslim’s yes, Buddhists fine. Satanists. Are you stating that you support Satanism with that comment? You would actually allow Satanist’s access to your children? That is exactly what the parents want. They want Bibles just as the AG does and his argument stands. Atheist’s are the only one’s I know of that have a problem with Bibles. I’ve stated before and will again, a proposal of groups to study a Bible, a Quran, a Torah, is a suitable way for parents and children to be located in a place of neutrality (public school) and voluntarily accept or decline the Bible, or join or not join a group which supports such actions. It is a good solution and keeps what is considered evil by most (Satanism) from public schools.

          • roald

            If you are OK with passing out the Qua’ran, you are a rarity on this site. Many expressed outrage that their children were learning about Islam (as well as Christianity and other religions as part of a world history class.

            I would as soon have a Satanist pass out literature to my child as a Christian. Since you have already said that you want to know nothing about satanism, you are not in a position to judge.

            Not all parents want their children to receive Bibles in school. Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, Christians who do not want the government interring in their religion, and a host of others are against the distribution.

            I also have no problems if a school sponsors religious groups after hours and is neutral toward religion. That includes satanists, pastafarians, humanists, atheists, and the rest. I do have a problem when the parents are unaware of what is happening and when the student has no choice about being present when the books are given out.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            If that is in fact the truth “I would as soon have a Satanist pass out literature to my child as a Christian”, then we have nothing further to discuss. That is against my very being, and I will not have a discussion with anyone that supports Satanism.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      I don’t think so. “Predatory” is probably hyperbolic. “Criminal” is demonstrably false. “Unconstitutional” would be the most correct.

    • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

      Yet there are godless books not just put into the library, but even taught in schools. Evolution, if I am not mistaken, is still taught there, despite no evidence for the failed belief that we share some ancestor with apes.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        You just disproved your point.

        Hubris?
        .

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      “And, I’ll bet most children’s families in OK have bibles already.”

      Given their “top 10” ranking in the US regarding divorce, out-of-wedlock births, and teen pregnancy, it appears that the bibles are being used much.

  • Josey

    The correspondence also likened Gideon International to child predators in sharing the Scriptures with children.
    “Parents carefully instruct their children not to accept any gifts
    from strangers. The Gideon practice of distributing bibles to
    schoolchildren teaches them to ignore that guidance,” Seidel stated.
    “This predatory conduct is inappropriate and should raise many red
    flags.”

    This letter by the “The Freedom From Religion Foundation” to the schools shows how warped their thinking is!!! There is a HUGE difference between offering free Bibles to the children who want them and between strangers out to do them harm.

    • DoctorDan118

      No, there’s not much difference at all. The Bible tells children that is OKAY to rape a woman as long as he pays her father afterward. The Bible says it’s OKAY to own slaves and even beat them to within an inch of their lives. Are you SERIOUSLY saying it’s okay to give out this information to CHILDREN?????

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        Talking about an ignorant statement. Unbelievable.

        • Paul Hiett

          Are you saying we can’t find that in the BIble?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You can read my reply above

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        What you are trying to say is that the Bible condones such things. That is not true. You must put things into proper context. Yes there were slaves, such as the Israelites who were beaten. Don’t forget the violence of an innocent man that was tortured, than kiled on a cross. Don’t forget to mention that a murderer became a Christian and followed the man killed on the cross. Don’t forget to tell children why the man was killed, what society was like at that time, and what the message of the man was. The man called Jesus. A rebel of his time that is now followed some 2000 years later. Don’t forget to tell them that God is love. Don’t forget to tell them that the people that followed this man were brutally kiled for their belief. Now that is what the Bible is all about.

        • KLB999

          Ummm…in the bible, it’s GOD’s commands that slaves be treated certain ways and that women who are raped can be forced to marry their rapist. So, yeah, that was actually written by humans who owned slaves and wanted to continue to own slaves so they put in these rules showing how god sanctioned slavery. Still, the point is the bible says these are god’s rules. If it was actually written by god, what difference does it make what the culture of the time was?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Yes slavery is in the Bible. A sign of the times unfortunately, but that doesn’t mean that Christ supports slavery, he spoke of slavery to sin. God didn’t sanction slavery he saved the Israelites from slavery. It makes a big difference. We have learned nothing since Christ came to save us through love. When you say God said that slavery is the rules, can you quote from the Bible on that? If you review the Old Testament, slavery was punished by death. If you read the New Testament, slavery from the Roman’s was real. That was the reason why Paul spoke to the new Roman church about caring for their slaves as their own family. In terms of women and rape, can you give me an example of text in the Bible referring to that? Thanks.

          • KLB999

            God DID sanction slavery – the commandments gave specific rules supposedly given by god about how slaves were to be treated. If god didn’t sanction it, then he would have told them not to have slaves. You are absolutely ignorant of the bible or a complete liar if you say that slavery was punished by death in the OT. Come on! Here’s one of my favorite bible quotes: Exodus 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

          • KLB999

            As for rape – Deuteronomy 22:28-29
            If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I disagree, the interpretation is as follows: The explanation of society is different than God condoning an act of slavery. These were conditions of mankind.

            Verses 20, 21. – Homicide of slaves. In most ancient states the slave was the absolute property of his master, and might be ill-used to any extent, even killed, without the law in any way interfering. It is said that the state of things was different in Egypt (Kalisch); but we have scarcely sufficient evidence on the point to be certain that the slave enjoyed there any real and efficient protection. At Athens, beyond a doubt, the law protected the life of the slave; and a very moderate amount of ill-treatment entitled a slave to bring an action. At Rome, on the contrary, “the master could treat the slave as he pleased, could sell him, punish him, and put him to death” (Dict. of Greek & Roman Antiq. p. 1036). And this was the ordinary state of the law, particularly in Oriental countries. The Mosaic legislation must be regarded as having greatly ameliorated the condition of the native slave population. Hebrew bondmen it placed nearly upon a par with hired servants (Leviticus 25:40); foreign slaves, whether prisoners taken in war, or persons bought in the market, it protected to a very great extent. By the law given in verses 26, 27, it largely controlled the brutality of masters, who had to emancipate their slaves if they did them any serious injury. By the law laid down in verse 20, it gave their lives the same protection, or nearly the same, as the lives of freemen. “Smiting “was allowed as a discipline, without which slavery cannot exist; but such smiting as resulted in death was, as a general rule, punishable like any other homicide. The only exception was, if the slave did not die for some days (ver. 21). In that case the master was considered not to have intended the slave’ s death, and to be sufficiently punished by the loss of his property. Verse 20. – If a man smite his servant, or his maid. “Maids” would commonly be chastised by their mistress, or by an upper servant acting under the mistress’ s authority. “A man” here means “any one.” With a rod. The rods wherewith Egyptian slaves were chastised appear upon the monuments. They were long canes, like those used by our schoolmasters. Under his hand. Criminals in the East are said often to die under the bastinado; and even in our own country there have been cases of soldiers dying under the lash. A special delicacy of the nervous system will make a punishment of the kind fatal to some, which would have been easily borne by others.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Seriously?

          Bibles require extensive explanation and training to understand and put into perspective?

          So, you DO see that handing out bibles is a tease to join religious practices (the ONLY analysis of the bible available).

          Thanks for clearly identifying the problem:

          handing out bibles is an un-Constitutional establishment of religion by the state.

          Thanks.

          I wondered when someone here defending the practice would admit that, YES, they are trying to establish their religion through the egency of the state.

          Ya know, being Christian does not REQUIRE that you be un-American.
          .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I don’t see it that way, and I don’t think many others do either. Again if someone wants a Bible in a voluntary manner, there is no reason why they should not get a Bible. If they don’t want a Bible and want the Quran instead, there is no reason why that person should not have a Quran. That is called Freedom. Not Freedom from religion, Freedom of religion. If you are not a believer you do not have to have any Bible, your choice. That is what volunteer is all about.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s not a “mojority rules” thing.

            It’s a Constitutional thing.

            Actually, an un-Constitutional thing.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Tell that to the voters, and the Constitution protects Religious freedom, the Constitution keeps Government from mandating a religion. That is why we have Freedom of Religion.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            So you DO agree that a bible handed out in pubic school would be the government mandating a religion, and therefore un-Constitutional.

            Whew.

            One down.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            What do “the voters” have to do with freedom of religion and prohibition of the state establishing religion?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Really? Votes have to do with electing officials that you align yourself with based on their values and being employed by the U.S. citizen. You know this already, why are you asking questions of this nature?

    • Sarah Jones Geer

      Pruitt actually MISQUOTED the FFRF- and they’ve sent him correspondence demanding a retraction of his false statements about them.

      FFRF’s issue was that a TEACHER was illegally passing out these materials and not a private citizen.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      @Josey,

      IF there is a “HUGE difference” between predators and people distributing bibles to kids, as you say …

      … THEN please detail those differences, rather than presume the differences are obvious.

      Thanks.
      .

  • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

    This is a fight for religious freedom. Atheist’s as groups open the door to many other groups that promote what I consider to be evil content. I don’t consider passing out Bible’s to be wrong in this situation, and as the Attorney General said, “Few things are as sacred and as fundamental to Oklahomans as the constitutional rights of free speech and the free exercise of religion,” he wrote. “It is a challenging time in our country for those who believe in religious liberty. Our religious freedoms are under constant attack from a variety of groups who seek to undermine our constitutional rights and threaten our founding principles.” I add not only Oklahomans, but to our entire nation. We may not be perfect as Christians, but we do have foundational principles protected by laws, and the Freedom From Religion Foundation tries it’s best to remove God from as many places as they can by bringing up frivolous law suits over and over again. Something isn’t right about that approach. If you talk to Atheist’s they claim that they are all individuals, without an agenda. I think this article explains that there is an agenda going on. They (atheists) have their rights, but it should not infringe on other’s rights. We are a religious country, and I see nothing wrong with that. This is now, and the battle to win hearts is now. If people could just settle down and think things through, I think there is room for love in every situation

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      If you don’t believe that public schools, which are to educate all children of all faiths as well as children of no faith, should be using school time to promote a single religious belief, then these efforts are not “frivolous”.

      “but it should not infringe on other’s rights.”

      There is “right” to distribute religious material in a public school.

      “If people could just settle down and think things through, I think there is room for love in every situation”

      I agree. Educational instruction belongs in the school. Religious instruction belongs in the home and in the church. I can see no reasonable reason why a public school – serving all children of all faiths as well as no faith and paid for by taxpayers of all faiths as well as no faith, should be a place where religious views are promoted. Do you?

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        I’m not sure at least from this article we can assume that passing out a Bible is during classes. I believe that it wouldn’t be a problem if the FFRF didn’t make such a big deal out of every little thing. Bibles are like Icons of faith which are located even in government buildings etc. We also pay through taxes for those things as well. If it is voluntary and it doesn’t disrupt students and their education,, I don’t see the problem. I’m not sure that a Bible is promoting one religion over another. It’s a Bible. Of course the atheist doesn’t like that idea, but it doesn’t infringe on an atheist because they don’t believe in the Bible. They would not accept a Bible, nor let their children accept one. The Bible isn’t harmful to students if they decide of their own free will to accept one.

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          “Bibles are like Icons of faith which are located even in government buildings etc. We also pay through taxes for those things as well.”

          No, they are not. Bibles provide instruction in the Christian faith. Icons on buildings do not do so.

          “I don’t see the problem.”

          Many others do. I, for one, do not want ANY particular religion to be promoted as a part of the activities of a public school.

          “I’m not sure that a Bible is promoting one religion over another. It’s a Bible.”

          Well apparently you haven’t read the Bible, as it very clearly states that Christianity is the only true religion and all others are false.

          “The Bible isn’t harmful to students if they decide of their own free will to accept one.”

          Harmful or not, in and of itself, is not the issue. The issue is a public school, paid for by all taxpayers of all faiths as well as no faith, and there to serve all children of all faiths as well as no faith, participating in the distribution of a text which promotes a single religious belief. It would be no different than Muslims coming in and passing out copies of the Quran. Such actions have no place in a public school.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Well, that is their problem. The Bible is for anyone that wants one, private or public. The same goes for any well documented book. I remember reading assignments in school. All types of books were considered. I remember Beowolf as a required book to read. It had violence in it. Does that mean it should be removed as a source of literature. How about The Hobbit? You see if it’s ok to be required reading, then what is wrong with a book that is not required reading but made available voluntarily?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Well, that is their problem.”

            What is whose problem?

            Do either the Hobbit or Beowulf present education regarding religious belief to the exclusion of all others?

            I’m all for making the Bible available in schools. The library is the appropriate place.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            “Many others do. I, for one, do not want ANY particular religion to be promoted as a part of the activities of a public school.” I was referring to this comment.

            You’re missing the point. Required, vers Voluntary. Another example might be Edgar Allen Poe. It was required reading. Did the book promote ghost’s and goblins? When used properly, a book is a learning tool. You stated that yourself concerning the Bible. However in this particular situation, the Bible is not required reading. It can however be a learning tool.

            Why can’t it be that a Bible that someone gets can be used during library time as research material? I can go along with it being in the Library, as well as being voluntarily accepted, and used in the library.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            I have absolutely no issue with the bible being used as a part of a comparative religion class. But I do have an issue with people from a religious group coming into a public school and with the assistance of the school, passing out religious texts. That amounts to promotion, which is not the role of the public schools.

            Again, in the library – no issue. As part of a class – say Comparative Religion – no issue. Actively passing out by religious organization – issue.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’m not sure that is the issue with the Attorney General. It’s more the issue that he doesn’t want materials passed out that are, lets just say evil intent. Remember what happened in OK. I think he is standing up for schools to not back down from agenda’s like the FFRF. It’s less about distribution of Bibles as it is to stand up for Freedom of Religion, in this case the Bible was the attacking point of the FFRF. I didn’t see a particular religious group in the article, just simply students that wanted to pass out Bibles. But i will agree that Bible’s as study material as part of a class would be acceptable, as well as reading a Bible in the Library.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “I’m not sure that is the issue with the Attorney General.”

            Agreed. The issue with the Attorney General, IMO, is getting is pandering to his constituents so he can get reelected.

            “Freedom of Religion” does not include the right to pass out religious texts in public schools. It relates to the government not being allowed to prohibit the expression of religious beliefs.

            “in this case the Bible was the attacking point of the FFRF.”

            No, the attacking point was the school distributing religious text to students. The bible was the religious text in this case, but the issue is not the Bible – it is the school participating in the promotion of religion.

            “I didn’t see a particular religious group in the article”

            From the article: “after it was made aware that Jamison Faught, son of Rep. George Faught (R-Muskogee), had distributed Bibles with Gideon International to schools throughout the state.”

            No, it was not students.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Thanks I missed that. As for the Bibles I would disagree with you on the attacking point of the FFRF and Freedom of Religion. It’s now Freedom from religion, it’s freedom of religion. I took that from Rand Paul’s recent statements. So on that portion, I must disagree since I support being able to provide any material, or represent Christian beliefs in any public setting. If people don’t want it, they certainly can use the FFRF to make more lawsuits. But until religion is completely removed from America, I will stand with those willing to stand up, like the Attorney General did.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            It’s both, or have you forgotten that pesky Establishment Clause?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            My pleasure.

            It is also freedom from government imposed or promoted religion. The government, which represents all people of all faiths as well as people of no faith, and is financially supported by citizens of all faiths as well as citizens of no faith, should not be promoting or preferring on religion over another.

            “But until religion is completely removed from America, ”

            Some Christians have this rather impetuous attitude that because their religion no longer given preference or recognized above other religions that Christianity is “under attack”. It is not. It is simply being put on par with other religions as well as those with no faith.

            That Christianity is no longer taught in our schools, or a Christian prayer said before a football game, or a city government no longer exclusively putting up a nativity scene, are not “attacks on Christianity”. They are simply saying: “Hey, you aren’t the only ones here. You are no more special than any other citizen.”

            In other words, Christians are having to learn to share and no longer be the bully on the school yard. They are still free to believe as they like. They are still free to speak about their beliefs in their personal lives. They are still free to attend services, ring their bells on Sunday, have parades, stand on street corners with “the end is near signs”, speak in the park about their faith, etc., etc., etc., – just like everybody else.

            So, when some people say that Christianity is “under attack” it is just a bunch of hooey. What’s under attack is the privilege that Christians have enjoyed in imposing their belief system on others.

            Sorry, kids, ya gotta share and you don’t get to tell others how to play, and the government, which represents everyone, is no longer gonna provide preference to your beliefs. It’ll be fine. You’ll get used to it.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is a position that you take. It is not one that I aspire to. We aren’t trying to be bullies, or at least I’m not. Your mistaken though. Many coaches in pro football pray before a game. Many high school coaches and college coaches do the same thing. Many players of the game pray during the game. Again you are mistaken. Prayer is had at prayer services at the top of government. If you remember it was a short time ago Obama attended a prayer service. Prayer and God aren’t going away from society. That is just wishful thinking by those that prefer there was no belief in God.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “We aren’t trying to be bullies, or at least I’m not.”

            I’m glad to hear that. Then you do not support laws that harm citizens by prohibiting them from entering into civil marriage with that rationale that it is contrary to the Christian belief system, correct?

            “Many coaches in pro football pray before a game.”

            And they are welcome to. It is a place of business. It is not a public institution.

            “Many high school coaches and college coaches do the same thing.”

            And they are welcome to – provided that they do not require others who do not share their to participate.

            “Prayer and God aren’t going away from society.”

            I agree and am glad. I have a strong belief in God. I think that religion and the beliefs that come from it, play a positive role in many aspects of our great nation. I, without hesitation, support the right of each citizen to believe as they choose, to share those beliefs with others on a personal level, and to live their lives in accordance with those beliefs within the boundaries of the law.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I appreciate that. Football is very public. I’m not sure where you came up with that but that’s fine. Again, I’ve not seen any Christian force anyone to do anything they don’t want to do. It doesn’t stop us from being supportive of Christianity.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Pro football is not a government institution.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            LOL, when did I say that?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Few colleges are government institutions.

            Many high schools are, and, Constitutionally, prayer should never be part of any activity in any government institution.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Any government employee attending a prayer service as an individual is not the government establishing prayer nor is it prayer in government.

            Any candidte addressing potential constituents in a non-governmental prayer situation such as a church is not government establishment of religion nor prayer in government.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You just explained what I’ve been explaining to you. They are not in church’s, don’t you get that. God is represented within government locations, that doesn’t mean a specific religion is mandated. It’s a practice by members of government, you do understand that don’t you? I mean you just explained it perfectly. Prayers happen after government meetings within the state or federal buildings. Religious symbols ARE on state and federal buildings and the grounds. It isn’t a mandated religion to the public, it is practicing the same things we have practiced since the founding of the constitution. We still have on money is “in God we trust” a U.S trading tool. We still have “under God” in the pledge of allegiance. We still have the Freedom of Speech to express our beliefs. Until those freedoms are removed, we live in a nation of religions. We still are free to express our religious views. By the way the Pizziarea in Indiana has reopened, after “Christians” gave them over 800,000, mostly will be contributed to charity, and now there are lines out the door for their services. I call that, the power of the people.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            This thread is NOT about making prayer and god go away from society.

            This thread is about keeping prayer and god, Constitutionally, out of government.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That may be true for you. It’s not true for me. Why do you continually address the same things over and over again.

          • KLB999

            So perfect! It’s like the so-called “War on Christmas”. If someone tries to be inclusive of others who are not Christian but celebrate a winter holiday by saying “Happy Holidays!’ – Oh NO! it’s an attack on Christians! lol

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I like “X-mas“, myself!
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Pubic school is not a public forum, it’s a governmental forum.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            And I doubt very much that religion will ever be removed from America. That is what is so great about America. Why would I support a group that wants to bring religion in America to an end?

          • Shaun Anderson

            FFRF isn’t trying to bring religion in America to an end. They only deal with church/state entanglements. They don’t care what you do at church or at home or in private.

          • egrosh32

            Persecution complex is a necessity of their faith.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I have no desire to persecute anyone. My only desire is that groups like the FFRF don’t bring frivolous lawsuits whenever God is represented in a manner that is consistent with a society that believes in God. If you don’t, you don’t. But don’t stop the representation of God in public just because you don’t like it.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “consistent with a society that believes in God.”

            Society doesn’t have beliefs. People have beliefs.

            “But don’t stop the representation of God in public just because you don’t like it.”

            Don’t force the representation of the Christian god in public just because you have chosen to believe in Christianity.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Semantics. Do you mean you didn’t understand my point? Again we come back to Freedom of religion (including Christians) and not FFR A.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Let’s make that:

            “… Don’t force the representation of the Christian god by the state just because you have chosen to believe in Christianity. …”

            Thanks.
            .

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            That’s a good suggestion. Thanks.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I DO look forward to the representation of the Christian god at county fair booths, 4H clubs, Boy Scouts of Amerca conventions …

            … just like Santa Clause, but in all white.

            Same fat man underneath the costume, right?

            Ahhh … PAY the Lord!
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            He’s saying SOME Christians need to feel persecuted, hence the umbrage at the enforcement of the separation of church and state.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            It’s not Freedom from Religion, it’s Freedom of religion. I explain that the FFRF is trying to ‘remove’ God from public places, and there are plenty of examples of that. Before the atheist agenda started happening, there were no arguments about prayer in school, saying “under God” in the school, or suing to keep the 10 commandments off the property of a State capital. Now there is. That is why you’re seeing people like this Attorney General fighting against the FFRF.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Show us one church the FFRF is trying to eliminate, eradicate, or hide from the public.

            The FFRF is trying to eliminate religion from goverment, as the Constitution demands.
            .

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Why would I support a group that wants to bring religion in America to an end?”

            The FFRF does not have removing religion from America as it’s mission. From their website: “The purposes of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism.”

            It is not their goal to bring religion in America to an end. They want the government, which represents all the people of all faiths as well as the people of no faith, to get out of the business of promoting religion.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I disagree again. That is a good excuse on their web site but has very little to do with reality. You see it everyday right here in the area where our favorite atheists like to come and attack.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “but has very little to do with reality.”

            How so? Have you seen them attempting to ban churches or put laws in place that would prohibit people from believing as they choose?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Just look at the arguments. Easy to see that an atheist wants God out of public places period. We live in the U.S. so as Rand Paul says “The First Amendment says keep government out of religion. It doesn’t say keep religion out of government. But that is exactly what the FFRF is doing. So is the position of most of the atheist’s hanging on here to attack Christians.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You misunderstand the meaning of keeping government out of religion.

            By definition, it’s the same as keeping religion out of government.

            Please explain how you think it’s possible to permit religion in government while obeying the First Amendment prohibition against government establishment of that religion you want inserted into government.

            Go ahead.

            Waiting … [ crickets ] …

            (… and crickets don’t eat pretzels!).
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Religion is already in government. I’ve explained that already. Again, the first Amendment is not to keep religion out of government, it is to prevent government from mandating a religion. I think it’s pretty clear. If the Amendment were to keep religion out of government there would be no chaplins hired to work within the government. There would be no prayer in government meetings. There would be no prayer meetings that a president would attend. For that matter there would be no federal Freedom of Religion Restoration Act. Look up the Clinton administration and the Bush administration about why they designed the FORRA. Look at what the Prime Minister of Israel say about what is located in the Chamber of Congress and what he said about it. Then come back to me and say, I don’t understand. Otherwise, stop waiting. Do something lol.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Well, you got me there — pandering and writing un-Constitutional laws IS Constitutional.

            Then the FFRF and others have to sue, and everyone has to spend lots of money and time to restore the Constitution and get rid of the un-Constitutional laws and practices.

            Geesh, what a waste of time.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I agree, the FFRF IS a waste of time.. LOL, now you’re saying that writing unConstitutional laws is Constitutional? Wow, that is one mixed up statement you provided there.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            On the one hand, we agree: writing un-Constitutional laws is a waste of time.

            On the other hand, do you really not understand the US system of checks and balances?

            Of course Congress can write any dang law they want to.

            Including repealing the laws of gravity!

            Whatever gets them publicity, donations, and re-election.

            Power and $$$ rule and rue the day.

            And then the FFRF, the ACLU, the SPLC, and little folk like you and me, all suffer, and sue, and bring those stupid laws through the courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court, in an effort to kill the bone-headed legislation, and have it declared un-Constitutional.

            Do the Congress people who rote that un-Constitutional law then go to jail or pay a fine?

            Nope.

            They get re-elected.

            So, though I agree that it’s stoopid, no, it is NOT un-Constitutional to make un-Constitutional laws.

            Welcome to the US, Kafka would be proud.

            If this is new to you, when did you arrive, recently?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            It’s reality, that is for sure. Since you and I are motivated by differing worldviews, I don’t consider myself to be suffering. Why? Because I have a profound love for God. Does that make sense to you as an atheist? I can only think that it does not. I believe that even through the most difficult times, God has always been with me and my experiences would show that to be fact, at least fact to me and those that have been a part of my life.

          • KLB999

            Well that’s because you’re ignorant – there is no agenda to remove religion from the US. They are not trying to shut down churches. The government represents ALL people not just Christians and not just the religious. The non-religious are also tax paying citizens. Government should not promote any religion nor promote non-religion – it should remain secular which means not having a stance on religion AT ALL. Anything else is not fair. Some day, Christianity will not be the majority religion and you’ll be singing an different tune then.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I can easily say it doesn’t matter if being a Christian becomes unpopular. It has been that way. I will always believe in Christ. Is the Government promoting religion or non religion? I didn’t say there was an agenda to remove churches. I said that the FFRA are making efforts to eliminate God from public places including Government establishments. They target Christians, very little is heard from them related to Islam (Muslims) that would be politically incorrect. Christians don’t force our beliefs on you and I personally would not want you to believe anything that you don’t want to.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Show me one Muslim clamoring for government estblishment of Islam, and the government responding positively, and I’ll show you yet another FFRF law suit.

            Waiting … [ crickets ] …
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That does not mean a thing to me. There is already an article that a teacher has already provided a project to examine Muslim culture and religious history. I don’t see that as a problem, as long as there are teachers providing Christian culture and religious history as well. Not one atheist or letter from the FFRF was presented against that. The FFRF prefers to attack Christians. Show me where the FFRF has ever presented a lawsuit against Muslims in a public school setting. I’ll be waiting (smile). Still upvoting yourself I see. Must be important for you to get upvotes.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thank you for understanding the difference between study (your Islamic culture reference) and teaching (your Christianity reference).

            Specifics would help — what public school are you referencing that presented Islam in a way that was against the Constitution?

            Since FFRF is RESPONSIVE, there has to be an un-Constitutional presentation of religion in government FIRST, so please lead us to your specific US governmental Islamist and we’ll proceed from there.

            Thanks.
            __________

            As explained before about my use of the ^ v markers as thread place markers for return visits … oh never mind, one item of discussion at a time.
            .

          • KLB999

            There isn’t a lot said in the US about Muslims because they don’t try to force their religion into government institutions like Christians do. If and when they start doing the same bulls**t Christians do here, you’ll be hearing a lot more about them from those of us who are truly trying to protect religious freedom. By the way, Rand Paul is incorrect – religious freedom DOES include freedom from religion. To argue otherwise is ridiculous – as if saying someone who is an atheist doesn’t have rights to be so!

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That’s fine. I believe him to be correct. I stand by his statement, therefore, I may suggest you might be wrong. Wow, how difficult would that be for you?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Do you think this attempted discussion among adults is grammar school recess “… I know you are but what am I?…” nonesense?

            We don’t just disagree, or agree to disagree.

            We actually arm our presentations with facts.

            Go ahead, disagree with facts.

            You’re entitled.

            Are you going to respond, “… Nya nya nya nya nya nya! …”?

            Thanks for establishing your credentials.

            What are you, an infant?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            LOL

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            WOT.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Another logical fallacy

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            When you toss a one-liner like “… Another logical fallacy …” without reference or explanation, it dead-ends the conversation.

            If that’s your goal, why are you here?

            No response via your absence works as well if not better (because we don’t respond with follow up inquiry asking you to explain a non-response).

            But you are here.

            And we are digging for clarity.

            And you avoid clarity.

            Why is that?

            @DTMoR, I’m seeing confirmation that you believe what you believe, and facts need not apply, so it tires you to try to explain the unexplainable.

            Well, at least the rest of us are growing as a result of full participation in our conversation here.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Not to offend, but a logical fallacy applied to what I viewed from your statement as an attack on a personal level. We talked about that already so I have left that behind me.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, they’ll be whining the same “… I’m being persetucted because I can’t discriminate in the public marketplace …” tune .f.o.r.e.v.e.r.

            Bigots never die.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Quote please.

            Quote one favorite athiest who comes here to attack, is a functioning MEMBER AND REPRESENTATIVE OF FFRF, and wants to eridicate, eliminate, or hide any church from public view.

            Thanks.

            Waiting … [ crickets ] …
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I did not say hide a church. I stated that the FFRF fights to keep out of the public schools and government institutions the freedom of religion by bringing up frivolous lawsuits because of one complaint while the majority of parents did not mind at all that this guy was passing out Bibles (for 40 years), so they resolved the issue with groups. That is a good solution, why do you continue to be interested in my position when it’s so obvious?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The FRF does not repond to complaints.

            The uphold and defend the Constitution.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            A business that serves pizza is a private party, owning their personal business. They attacked those people to the point of closing their business, only to be reopened through a major contribution by people that value people that make a stand against persecution by groups like the FFRF. Now they not only have the opportunity to make improvements, they have a full dining room with people waiting outside to be served. You really don’t understand why that is happening. However the people supporting the business know exactly why. It’s because they are getting sick and tired of the FFRF making a scene, and trying to destroy people because of their faith. If you want to stop something, stop the FFRF from trying to ruin people’s lives.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No one is aking you to support a group that wants to bring religion in America to an end.

            Why would you think that?

            Can you quote us any such request for such support?

            Specifically?

            Thanks.
            .

          • DoctorDan118

            Yep. Time for the Satanists to step in and spread their literature. Still going to be okay with that???

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            No, would you be?

          • egrosh32

            If you were truly for freedom of religion, then you would have no problem with allowing other beliefs equal access.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I never received an answer from the Doc about that. So would you if you have children be inclined to allow a Satanist to pass out coloring books and candy to your child? I wouldn’t. Would I want such a thing in my community. No I wouldn’t For some reason people consider equality and freedom of religion to include immorality. Why is that?

          • egrosh32

            It is not up to you or I to decide which beliefs are legitimate. The first amendment does not take sides. If one is allowed, then all must be allowed.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Is that the point. I don’t see that playing out in America right now, nor do I expect it to change. I asked a question. Does anyone want to answer it? Do you if you have children want Satanist’s to pass coloring books and candy to your children? Simple question.

          • egrosh32

            I don’t want any religious material given to my children. I don’t care if it’s Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Satanist etc. It is up to me as a parent to speak to my children about religion. One can easily point out the horrors of every religion including Satanism or Christianity.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I expected that response. An atheist argues that it is all religions or none, You people argue that point and then say you wouldn’t except none. That is because it isn’t to you or the one’s that argue against religion, such as the FFRF to have religion period. That is why the Attorney General is standing his ground. Again it isn’t Freedom from religion it is Freedom of religion. It doesn’t include 2400 so called religions. It includes those religions that our society has included. And has included. I’m a Christian and I believe in Christ. The Jewish religion doesn’t. If they passed on the Torah during school, no problem with that. That is what I’m speaking about. You cannot include so called religions that are Satanic. That is just a tactic by the atheist so that no religion is acceptable.

          • egrosh32

            As expected, typical response of a theocrat. The first amendment affords the same rights to the both of us. If you think that the first amendment only applies to those that share your beliefs, you have a warped sense of reality. We all pay taxes, therefore if your beliefs are allowed for distribution in schools, then all other taxpayer’s beliefs are allowed.

            “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
            ~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            So you’re claiming that the U.S. is NOT founded on judeo-christian principles right? Do you see: “The First Amendment says keep government out of religion. It doesn’t say keep religion out of government

            WASHINGTON – During a private prayer breakfast for pastors on Thursday, Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) told those gathered that the Constitution never meant that God must be removed from government, but that the government was not to interfere with the practice of religion.

            “The First Amendment says keep government out of religion. It doesn’t say keep religion out of government,” Paul told the approximately 50 persons gathered at the Capitol Hill Club in Washington D.C.. “So, you do have a role and a place here.”

            “I open the Senate each Wednesday morning, and we open it every day with a prayer,” he noted. “You have prayer in government. Religion is part of our daily life and a part of our government; it always has been.”

            According to CBN News, which recorded Paul’s comments during the breakfast, the event had been organized to present his views on faith, religious freedom and the role the Church plays in the government.

            During his talk, the Kentucky Senator told pastors not to look to Washington to solve all of the nation’s problems, but that change needs to happen from a grassroots gospel effort.

            “The moral crisis we have in our country—there is a role in trying to figure out things like marriage,” Paul said. “There’s also a moral crisis that allows people to think that there would be some sort of other marriage. So really there’s a role outside and inside government.”

            “I think the exhortation to change people’s thoughts has to come from the countryside—from everywhere outside of Washington,” he continued. “We’re the most disconnected city on the planet from the people, so don’t have a lot of faith in what’s going on up here.”

            Connect with Christian News

            Paul then reiterated statements he has made in the past, remarking that a spiritual awakening is needed in America.

            “I’ve said this before: We need a revival in the country,” Paul added Thursday. “We need another Great Awakening with tent revivals of thousands of people saying, ‘Reform, or see what’s going to happen if we don’t reform.’”

            As previously reported, throughout America’s early history, a number of the Founding Fathers issued proclamations calling inhabitants to prayer, including in 1798, when President John Adams proclaimed a national day of humiliation, prayer and fasting.

            “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him,” he wrote, “…this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities—the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity—are a loud call to repentance and reformation.”

            “[L]et us not forget the religious character of our origin,” American statesman Daniel Webster also declared during his famous “Plymouth Oration” in 1820, less than 50 years after the nation’s founding. “Our fathers were brought hither for their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political or literary.”

            “Let us cherish these sentiments,” he continued, “and extend this influence still more widely, in the full conviction that [it] is the happiest society which partakes in the highest degree of the mild and peaceful spirit of Christianity.”

          • egrosh32

            “So you’re claiming that the U.S. is NOT founded on judeo-christian principles right?” Tell that to John Adams

            We can throw quotes all night but that won’t accomplish anything.

            http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-
            founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/

            The truth of the matter is that God, Jesus, the Bible or any religion are mentioned in the Constitution. As for the Declaration of Independence, “creator” and “nature’s God” sound very vague.

            What I always find amusing is the claim that we are founded on “JudeoChristian principles” but I can never get a clear answer on what they are.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason
          • egrosh32

            Smile? LOL. Laugh was more like it. I only saw 2 or 3 quotes and all the rest is some guys opinion. Greece and Rome also had democratic republic forms of government . To say that our republic was founded on the Bible is a stretch.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Did you also see what website it comes from? National Center for Constitutional Studies. I don’t think you gave the site a chance to compare the relationship.

          • egrosh32

            Please…….

            NCCS is a conservative, religious-themed constitutionalist organization…….

            If you’re going to post information please do so without an unbiased source.

          • KLB999

            Oh but they call themselves the National Center for Constitutional Studies so that says it all!!! LOL!

          • egrosh32

            A conservative think tank……LOL

          • egrosh32

            A right wing think tank…….yeah that’s not biased at all…..LOL

          • egrosh32

            A right wing think tank…….yeah that’s not biased at all…..LOL

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Wow, what poppycock.

            Even Rush Limaugercheesy would be embarrassed.

            If not also confused because there are too many words and sentences!

            And all linked together.

            As if they mean something.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Are you stating that what you were reading in the link is incorrect? I can’t make head or tails out of your statements. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make it less so. But if you like, I will provide something else to confirm our heritage as judeo-christian. There are so many different sites that explain it, you can google it yourself.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .

            Explaining an opinion does not make it a fact — your links are circular self-justifying illogic and myopic falsehoods and inconsequential incongruities.

            Changing your claim does not bode well for your argument.

            First it was the Constitution is based on the bible … even though there’s nothing biblical in the Constitution.

            So now you say the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, as if that means anything good.

            I say you see what you want to see.

            I look and see America built on Indian federation principles of neighboring tribes uniting without war — that’s good in and of itself, no explanation needed.

            I see the 10 Amendments having NO correlation to the 10 Commandments, a Freedom FROM Religion zone — that’s good, in and of itself, no explanation needed.

            Yet, when I look for Judeo-Christian principles in the naisance and evolution of the US, it would be in the burning of witches, the slaughter and annihilation of natives Americans, the importing of black slaves, the raping of slaves, even the government paying of slave owners when their slaves were decreed freed instead of paying the slaves, sort of like compensating a thief for the value of what they stole when they return it.

            Is that the Judeo-Christianity you ascribe to the ‘glories’ that built the US into a world power — SLAVERY?

            I agree.

            And abhor it.

            And want to scream at anyone who makes endless excuses for the horrors wrought by Judeo-Christianity as, well, “… it requires explanation …” as you say.

            Why?

            To justify it, to excuse it, to perpetuate it in the misogyny and lack of equivalent consideration from loud-mouthed Judeo-Christians today in the public sphere, in church pulpits, and somehow in government?

            History is big, and we can each see a great deal of it, and not overlap in our observations, let alone assessments.

            I am confident that we’re both right, just looking at different parts of US history.

            So?

            That does not mean that handing out bibles to children who are involuntarily present in public school during school session is Constitutional, or should be.
            __________

            Afterthought:

            Unless it’s Thomas Jefferson’s bible, as historic study of his attempts to cast out the demons of Judeo-Christianity as he saw them, even though he himself was a slave rapist.

            He HATED the bibles of his day, and was writing his own.

            Or maybe we should use the updated Washington DC Gay Catholic Church bible in our pubic schools, eh?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            When all those folks are dead, and gone, the Constitution will live on.

            What legl space are you making for the COnstitution and the self-evolving beliefs of others?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            LOL, I hope you’re including yourself in that group, that is if you vote. I don’t understand the second part of the statement.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            When I wrote “… What legal space are you making for the Constitution, and for the self-evolving beliefs of others, maybe even your own? …”

            … I’m asking:

            (a) Do you recognize the Constitution as the supreme law of the land?

            (b) Do you recognize American evolution every day, as in, we no longer burn witches, have slaves, and rape slaves, as the founders did?

            (c) Just as we all have evolved, what’s your own plan for your own evolution, such as recognizing the equal rights of anyone who you think does not believe as you think you believe; or what’s your plan to evolve your Christian beliefs to … say … recognize our married Christian gay military veterans in our marketplace, education, employment, homes, families, and so on?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            A: Yes. However Christ is the ultimate law.

            B: No I recognize a decline. We still have slavery in the form of women abducted for ‘ra-e, our people are move divided now than ever before, little children are being murdered in schools, we haven’t evolved, we have de-evolved. Take a look at the comment sections.

            C: Evolution as you describe it means there is a shift in thinking, both logically, reasonably, and spiritually. Here is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ:

            The Word Became Flesh
            1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

            9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

            14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

            Notice the phrase: “Gave the right”

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            A: “Yes” has no qualifications, no “… howevers …”.
            __________

            B: Nothing you write there is accurate.

            These are the least violent times, safest for children.

            And, like the FFRF, there is much energy in the non-governmental organizations addressing slavery and women’s rights, empowerment, equality, and safety.

            BECAUSE the Judeo-Christian Davidian elected officials in Government ignore the suffering of little folk, especially women.

            They believe that women are mere vessels really, so why would women object to being used as such?

            And so those poweful men pursue their own greed and control of everything under the guise of their religious constituent’s approval and re-election.
            __________

            C: Thanks for quoting apparently one of the thousands of bible versions out there.

            Yours is how many translated steps away from original authors and compositors, none of whom were witnesses to any of the stories they wrote about?

            You’re describing DNA, right?

            And in a few years, that description will apply to self-organizing micro protiens and viruses, right?

            And in another few years, God will be moved down to the quantum and quark.

            Just as God was moved from the immediate clouds to the distant stars to somewhere outside the ‘local’ universe.

            Just as the Greeks and Roman thought the gods were local, and Jews said, nope, god is everywhere.

            Like Elvis.
            __________

            Ahhhhh …

            And the point is:

            It’s un-Constitutional for the state to present any religion, especially to captive, involuntary under-age citizen children in pubic school during school session.

            But you were discussing … what, actually?

            I saw no relation to the topic at hand.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Again you have stated this over and over again. I understand your position, I just disagree with it. You understand that don’t you?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @DTMoR, we’re just trying to figure out how we can get along in society together.

            We respect the Constitution as the supreme law of how we get along.

            And, inspired by the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, the Gettysburg Address, and so on, we respect that each of us is free to base our own personal choices of belief and behaviour on whatever we want.

            As long as our behaviour (not our beliefs) does not transgress the Constitution, especially our behaviour towards each other.

            You seem to think that the Constitution and settled law and the the support reasons for the Constitution and settled law are miscible, reinterpretable according to external, non-legal things like personal whim, your understanding of your bible, majority rules, and so on.

            We don’t see you clearly acknowledging that, yes, “separation between church and state” is the supreme law of the land, and that you are practicing, or in favor of, civil disobedience, wanting to CHANGE the Constitution.

            We do see you wanting to reinterpret the existing Constitution according to your religious whims, discarding settled law.

            So, it makes sense that we’re digging for clarity.

            To you, is this an argument about interpreting the Constitution?

            Or changing the Constitution?

            Both?

            Neither?

            In spite of you being SATISFIED with your position, I do not think we UNDERSTAND your position.

            And I do not think you understand your position either.

            Or you’d be happy to explain.

            So we dig.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is fine, I have no problem with that. The amendment clause of the Constitution explains two different interpretations. One is that the separation of church and state is as you explain it. The other is as I explain it and as Rand Paul explained it. That interpretation states that the 1st amendment was recognized as government cannot mandate a particular religion, but the clause does not mean that religion can’t be part of government, such as symbols, prayers, etc. Some interpret it to mean there can be no religion in government. I don’t subscribe to that clause, I subscribe to the clause I mention.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Even folks who don’t pay taxes get 100% equivalent consideration, Constitutionally.

            All you have to be is within the stte’s jurisdiction.

            Period.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It has nothing to do with your so-called ‘established’ religions, otherwise there would be none of the new religions in the US, including Christian Mormonism, and so on.

            Duh.

            How could people have freedom of religion to start new religions if, through everyone’s self-governance, you forbade ANY new religion from presenting itself to possible new recruits, such as children in school, only ‘old’ religions permitted?

            Bogus.

            So, according to you, WHO DECIDES what religions are acceptable or not?

            Hmm?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You’re examples are extensions. The material presented is the the result of the main religions currently. As is explained in the results, it does not containing the branches of said religions.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .

            Extensions?

            Like Episcopalian is an extension of piss.

            Let’s see …

            Scientology,

            Rastafarianism,

            Pastafarianism (I’ve got my colander, and who can complain about holy mother Sophia Loren who ascribes her, er, health, to eating pasta?!?),

            Religious Science,

            Theosophical Society,

            Azusa Street Revival,

            Moorish Science Temple,

            Nation of Islam (Farrakan would LOVE to visit your school children!),

            Huna,

            Peoples Temple,

            Branch Davidians,

            C Street Davidians (Jesus is good for keeping the rabble like you and me pacified while David inspires and justifies the world-raping sins of the leadership in Congress and the Senate),

            Westboro Baptist Church (real Christlike!),

            Eckankar,

            Church of Satan,

            LaVeyan Satanism (both actually quite nice and peaceful, never burned a witch, or owned a slave, much less raped a slave, as those lovely Judeo-Christian founders did!),

            Church of the SubGenius,

            Heaven’s Gate,

            Kemetic Orthodoxy,

            Endeavor Academy,

            Course in Miracles,

            Great Awakening,

            Utopian movements …
            __________

            Regardless, WHO DECIDES what religions are acceptable or not as appropriate to be established by the state in spite of the Constitution?

            Satan is pure bible, yet you don’t want THAT part of the bible established by the state.

            Why not?

            It’s in the bible!

            I’m sure it would be okay … with a little bit of “… explanation …”. as you say.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Frankly, the first place I learned about Satan was in the Bible, so you’re asking the same question the Freedom FROM Religion Foundation is asking:

            Do you want Satinism distributed to children who are involuntarily attending government public schools, and if so, what is your Constitutional excuse?

            You seem to answer ‘no’ because you believe it’s against your own personal choice of religious belief.

            Cool, but irrellevant.

            The FRFF and other Christians answer ‘no’ because it is against the Constitution.

            Start discarding the Constitution, and we live in whimsical caos and disrespectful anarchy.

            If that’s your preference, please leave.

            I like America, and I like the way it is going, even though I dislike many of the current inequities, and many of the choices people are free to make for themselves.

            We agree on so much, especially each person’s freedom to choose their own personal beliefs, religious or not, for themselves.

            Why do you want anyone else but yourself to be involuntarily exposed to your own personal religious choices and beliefs, especially through the agency of all-of-we-the-people’s Constitutional self-governance inflicted on defenseless children who have no choice?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’ve expressed my position. It’s clear where I stand. Is there anything else. Your position is different. Your worldview is different. We won’t agree on anything. Some will support your worldview, some may support mine. Either way, as Christian’s we believe that Satan is the root of all evil. With that being said, that is the reason I take exception to Satanism. I don’t in the case of say the Torah, the Quran, because my belief is that if the Bible is studied next to those sources, the Bible will stand on its own as the message of Christ. If you choose to allow a Satanist to pass out coloring books and candy shaped like Satan to your child, that is up to you. Satan is the source of evil, not God. Christ is the source of all that is Good. I have explained why I see no problems with the Bible being accepted voluntarily when parents are involved and approve. I’ve also said that group settings would be an appropriate avenue to bring like groups together for a Bible study.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s not a WORLDVIEW.

            It’s the Constitution.

            Get over it.

            Get used to it.

            Or get out.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thank you for giving up and changing the subject out of government.
            .

          • KLB999

            Your position is unconstitutional. Your discrimination against certain religions and atheists is immoral. Satanism has just as much right to exist as Christianity or any other religion. You don’t get to decide which religions are allowed and which aren’t. Sorry – you just aren’t.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is your opinion and your welcome to it. I don’t view things as you do so we will have different opinions.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s NOT an ‘opinion’ that prohibits you from deciding which if any religion the state can establish.

            It’s the Constitution that prohibits you from establishing any religion via the state.
            __________

            An opinion is a belief not based on fact.

            Your presentations are opinion.

            Those of us arguing with you are presenting fact.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You ask if sny of us want Satanists passing out books and candy to our children. and I add the qualifier you omit: while they are involuntarily in public school session.

            ONLY if in concert and balance for any other religion trying to do the same.

            I say: crowd the venue.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No beliefs are forbidden — please quote where you think they are.

            This is a discussion about keeping the government from establishing ANY organizing principle other than the Constitution and subordinate references.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Actually, the Constitution demands that NONE be allowed, not “ALL must if ONE is”.
            .

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “to include immorality”

            So tell me – who would be responsible for determining what is moral and what is not, and therefore which religions should be allowed and which should not?

            Since Christianity states that it is the only true religion, what is the difference between being a Jew or a Satanist? They are both heathens according to the Bible, and thus are immoral. So should Jews be banned? How about Islam? Shinto? Buddhism?

            Would it fall upon a certain sect of Christianity to determine what is moral and what is immoral? Baptist perhaps? Methodist maybe? Amish? I do so hope it’s not the Amish. I have grown very fond of electricity and I think it would be bad if we weren’t able to teach children about electricity.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You tell me, you seem to know what it is. What to you is immorality. I’ve presented my statement.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            You were the one who suggested that some criteria be applied regarding which religions should be allowed in school based upon the test of “immorality”. In order for such a test to be in place, there must be a basis. I made no such claim, therefore it is not upon me to provide a definition.

            If you want to limit access to only certain beliefs, and your criteria is “immoral”, then you should be able to decide how that criteria will be developed and determined.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Do you live in the U.S.? Do you watch our political leaders, our sports players that pray. Did you know that prayer is on the rise in the U.S. even though the affiliation with a specific religion is going down. I believe you know what is immoral, that is why I feel I don’t have to explain it.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            Born and raised.

            Lots of people pray. If they choose to, they should. I pray.

            You were the one who suggested that some type of criteria should be applied. If you are backing away from that, that is fine. But if you believe that some decision about what is immoral should be applied, then you should be able to explain the criteria you would use.

            I believe that it is immoral, in a country which protects religious freedom, for anyone to make a judgement regarding which religions are worthy and which are not.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’m glad you pray, I assume it is to God. I suggest there is already criteria in place (ex Satanists). People make up a society so when I say society we can look at peoples not person. My opinion isn’t just mine, it’s about 80% of Americans. A small group is making a lot of noise, yet most Americans don’t even comment on these sites. I believe it’s immoral not to believe in Jesus Christ but that doesn’t mean you’re going to believe in him. A country protects religious beliefs because the majority of people vote in government officials who do have beliefs that are Christian, Jewish, etc.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh yes, I’ve NEVER heard of religious people DISAGREEING.

            You all, all 80% of the population, must think as ONE.

            I am sure of that.

            There is no a single disagreement between you praying Judeo-Christians.

            No a hair of difference between you and anyone from that 80% who might sit next to you in the pew on any day.

            // sarcasm off

            Begin the Crusages, the burning of heretics, and the bifurcation of Christianity into Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, European and American and African and Asian, Roman and Anglican, and send the persuceted to the new world … WAIT A MINUTE.

            I thought all praying Judeo-Christians believed the same, according to you.

            What’s all this “persecution” about, then?

            Oh, I know — persecution is about state establishment of religion, all others be damned to convert, love it, or leave.

            Got it.

            THAT is freedom of religion to you — the freedom to inflict your religion on others.

            And THAT is why the Constitution makes it illegal for the state to establish religion through the practice of handing out religious materials to under-age citizen children who are involuntarily in public school during session.

            Whew.

            Cleared that one up.

            Next?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            No we don’t all believe the same, I don’t know where you came up with that idea. I’m saying that Christians make up the majority of the populace in the U.S. We don’t always agree with each other, just as one atheist won’t always agree with another atheist. That is just being human. How far will you go to stretch your opinion? You have gotten nothing so far that I’ve explained. That is ok with me, but be realistic at least.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            #1:

            My opinion isn’t just mine, it’s about 80% of Americans …. I believe it’s immoral not to believe in Jesus Christ … A country protects religious beliefs because the majority of people vote in government officials who do have beliefs that are Christian, Jewish, etc.

            #2:

            No we don’t all believe the same, I don’t know where you came up with that idea … [ see #1 above ] … I’m saying that Christians make up the majority of the populace in the U.S. We don’t always agree with each other, just as one atheist won’t always agree with another atheist. That is just being human. How far will you go to stretch your opinion? You have gotten nothing so far that I’ve explained. That is ok with me, but be realistic at least.

            So:

            — You say that 80% of Americans share your belief that it’s immoral not to believe in Jesus Christ, and they protect (their?) religious freedom by electing like minded politicians.

            — I call you on every point, showing that Judeo-Christians (ANY religions, really) disagree with each other, kill each other en masse, kill others en masse, and it’s worse when the state is the sponsor of religion, and that’s one of the many reasons it’s forbidden in the US.

            — You then say I misunderstand you, of course everyone disagrees occasionally, you ignore immorality by Judeo-Christians and other religions, especially state-sponsored and authority-sponsored religious immorality … and yet, I’m the one not being realistic.

            I’m not sure, then, of what Judeo-Christianity (or ANY religion) you are thinking of.

            Perhaps it’s a utopian dream not of this world?

            Certainly not of the history of the real world.

            Alright then, why don’t you hold off on your utopian dream world until after you die?

            And let us live together in peace, with equivalent consideration for each other, all just get along, cooperatively under the Constitution, while we are here in this temporary temporal real plane together.

            And let the after life, if any, be a surprise for both of us, rather than a fearful infliction of power over one another.

            You go ahead and read your own bible, but don’t ask our government to throw it at kids (or anyone).

            And I won’t ask our government to throw my opinions and preferences for myself at anyone, either.

            So, @DMoR, do you think you can make it through a day without an agenda for others (other than they leave you alone)?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You keep putting words in my mouth so to speak. If you want to acknowledge what I said that is fine, if you are making an analysis based on what I said, that is in my opinion putting words in my mouth. If you have a problem with what I say, fine. That doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is trying to twist my words into your words, making people think they are my words. If you need clarification on something, mention my comment and ask for further explanation. Twisting my words out of context doesn’t mean I said what you say I said.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Okay, @DTMoR, I’ll stop quoting your posts as examples of what you are trying to say.

            Is there another way for us to find out what’s on your mind, other than reading and quoting your posts and asking you questions back, explaining what think we’ve got so far, and asking you if there’s more about that for you, can you clarify?

            Hmm?

            Perhaps I have the wrong definition of “discuss” ( as Disqus wants to be associated with ).

            Can you tell us what you think we’re doing here with all these, uh, opportunities to

            [ Post … ] our words

            … and

            [ Reply ] with more words,

            … then?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            If you have particular questions, start with that. Otherwise if you’re referring to a particular opinion of mine, it’s fine to say what is on your mind, that is cool with me.

          • roald

            I believe that passing out religious books under the authority of the government is immoral.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Do you believe that prayer in government assemblies is immoral?

          • roald

            Yes. It is especially immoral when, whether intended or not, it excludes people who do not share that belief system.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            May I ask in what way does prayer exclude you? You have the same freedoms that I do. You have every right to conclude prayer is not for you and do not have to include yourself in those things. That doesn’t mean that everyone else should stop because you consider it unfair. You can easily talk about your belief system and worldview. as easily as I can. You can exclude yourself if you like. It doesn’t take away your freedoms if you decide prayer is not for you

          • roald

            When a group of people, such as a town council, starts off its meeting with a call for guidance from the deity of any religion, it sends a message to the followers of other religions and atheists, that they are not a part of group. That is immoral.

            If sub-groups want to offer up such a prayer, each sub-group should meet separately away from the full group for that prayer.

            Jesus called for his followers to be empathetic. You should try that rather than offering some lame excuse.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I certainly would include you if you desired to be included. It is you that would likely decline. Do you believe in the words of Christ? Because I agree with your last statement and if I’m being cruel in any way you stop me. I don’t want that. Sub-groups are fine, they have them in public schools today. But when you have a major gathering I see no problem with a student praying first. Many atheist’s have told me they simply leave the room until that part is over.

          • roald

            Walk a mile then. That the public prayer, condoned by the State, occurs sends a message to me that I am not a member of the State. That I choose to leave the room tells everyone else that I am not a part of their team and my thoughts are of less value. It is far easier to have all interested in that prayer do so among themselves before the official start of the meeting, yet you resist that option.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Just recently, a Wiccan was invited to host a prayer in front of members of a state congress. Those that wished not to participate (Christians) walked into another room and prayed as that prayer was going on, then came back into the meeting. Does this send a message that Christians have chosen not to participate in a Wiccan prayer. I see it more logical that the bigger of the two audiences has precedence in this particular instance, or the one you provided.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            CHILDREN athiests have told you they leave the room when they are involuntarily in public school and the rest of their “peers” are doing something religious as a group lead by the teacher / aministrator / coach authority in the room?

            Seriously?

            The subject is CHILDREN.

            They tend not to have the power to walk up to an adult, an authority, someone like you, and say,

            “… Excuse me, but you are offending me with your public, state-inflicted religious experession, please stop …”

            You say “… I don’t mean to offend, please stop me if I offend!…”

            B. S.

            You are a bully, and you know it.

            And you think because you are right, then it’s okay, it’s all for Jesus.

            Jesus himself would climb back up on the cross and beg for more nails rather than deal with your endless, insensitive, offensive posts in his name.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Personal attack. Logical fallacy. I won’t respond to a comment of that type. Stay with the issues.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “… Stay with the issues. …”

            Great point.

            Show us.
            __________

            Personal attack is not my goal for your experience of me, but assessment is inevitable.

            I apologize for anything I wrote that you experienced as an attack.

            Please quote anything of mine that you experience as a personal attack and I’ll review it and fix it to the best of my ability until I learn what it takes to get it right, to make the contents and point available to you as not a personal attack.

            Sorry.

            And thanks.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You know that if you are town council government chair, and you pray before a town board meeting, and I exclude myself because to me, my own prayer, if any, is between me and my prayed-to, not a shared public thing with anyone else (you know, “freedom of religion”) … and then I ask the board for something, I know the scowl of intimidation and refusal based not on the merits of my request, but on their negative assesment of my publicly NOT joining their “official” public prayer.

            The Supreme Court is confused and thinks a remedy is to allow a variety of prayers from the populace, thinking that might provide balance and therefore appropriateness.

            But they ignore the imperitive of the Constution that demands NO religious prayer of ANY type to be inflicted by the state.

            I don’t even want a minute’s silence.

            The FFRF has their hands full when the Supreme Court feels compelled to express a preference for religious prayer inflicted by the state.

            They, and you, and not “winning”.

            They, and you, are shooting yourselves in your own foot, hurting your own religion, your own state, your fellow citizen, yourselves.

            Shame on you.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Again personal opinion. You don’t know me personally, therefore trying to shame me is just a tactic. It has little to do with the issues.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            AND, more importantly, any prayer by the state acts to ESTABLISH religion.

            Clearly un-Constitutional.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Oh.

            So, “morality” is praying.

            No further explanation needed.
            ________

            Seriously?

            You must be kidding.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            WHAT?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            In response to a question as to what you think morality is, you answered

            “… see all the public people praying? … so I don’t have to explain it (morality) …”

            I called you on it — you can’t be serious that your vision of morality is obvious, based on pubic prayer as self-evident.

            You responded “… WHAT? …”.

            I repeated in summary.

            Here we sit.

            With absolutely NO IDEA what you think is “moral”.

            Except misunderstanding the Constitution and settled law and the actions of those who uphold and defend the Constitution, well, misunderstanding all that is moral.

            But Satanism, whatever that is, you have no idea, and do not want to have any idea, well, Satanism is immoral.

            And here we sit.

            “… WHAT? …” indeed.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I think its fair to say, if you know the Bible and what Christ has to say, then you would understand my definition of morality, based on his definition. To explain that in a comment would be a bit irrational since you can clearly look at the New Testament or use the “Biblehub” on the Internet for complete guidance as to morality. I believe Satan, and Satanism is evil incarnate, and again I feel so strongly about that, that if someone states any support of that, whatever someone thinks about it, I will no longer respond to that person. If they don’t like that reasoning, so be it.

          • roald

            I went looking for a definition of immoral. All I found was not moral. When I looked up “moral”, I found “based on what you think is right and good”. So, morality is in the eye of the beholder.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Have you ever studied the Bible? It isn’t what I think that matters (I thought I would say that for you) to me, it’s what Christ says that matters. To say you have you’re own morality, could mean for example that everything goes. I don’t think you would teach your child that everything goes. Morals are ethical boundaries. Even science has Ethicists which apply a moral standard to doing scientific experiments, such as those that endanger lives, or endanger a certain species. If you ever watched the movie “the cove” you would see immorality in action.

          • roald

            What I was pointing out is there is no absolute standard for moral and immoral. What happens when what I think is moral (or immoral) is the opposite of what you think is moral (or immoral). Is your mind open enough to say that the person-most-affected’s definition should have greater weight or do you simply assume the other person is wrong?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            As a Christian I would disagree with your statement. the reason is that the Bible does make absolutes about moral and immoral behavior. If you are an atheist as an example, most I’ve spoken with have what they call self morals. Self morals on their own could mean almost anything. I don’t assume you wrong I just accept the message of Christ as my guidelines. If you don’t that is up to you. I have nothing against you as a person, we just don’t see eye to eye on the method by which we describe morality, or how we live as moral agents of society. That is why I stated that our views will differ, however I don’t view you as a bad person because we approach things, or have differing views from a different standpoint. I’m sure you are a good person, an intelligent person.

          • roald

            Interesting. I just had another self-identified highly religious Christian tell me that I have to study the Bible thoroughly to distinguish between the commandments that are ceremonial and those that are moral.

            Do not confuse self-morals with societal morals.Virtually all successful societies share common beliefs, such as helping others and against murder and theft. An atheist picks these up from society, but does not pick up the religious-based morals such as hating gays.

            You are, of course, free to follow the morals of your religion. You are not free to impose them on others, especially not when they contradict the morals of the society in which you choose to live. Thus, an agent of the State, such as a teacher is free to pray in her/his car on the way to school and any other private moment and quietly or silently while walking to class and other times s/he may be overhead by students. S/he is not allowed to use her/his position of authority as a representative of the state to promote his/her religion.

            Care to answer my question?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Is there a question in this comment? I’m not sure which question you asked, we have so many threads going on lol. I’ll be glad to answer your question though to the best of my ability.

          • roald

            In the one immediately above…

            Is your mind open enough to say that the person–most-affected’s definition should have greater weight or do you simply assume the other person is wrong?

            For example, does the teacher’s “right” to share the word exceed the child’s and parent’s “right” not to have a representative of the state favor one religion over another or none?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I believe the right of the parent to remove a child from the condition they don’t approve of, until such time they may return. Since the ‘audience’ holds the greater weight, being presented with a concept, it’s the ‘right’ of those that want to hear or share the word an opportunity to do so if they desire. Since the parent is responsible for the child, the parent also is within their right’s equally to remove a child from that particular situation, at that particular time.

            Who do you suggest is the person most affected?

          • roald

            Parents don’t always know what is happening until after it has happened. Second, children may be bullied, often with parental support of those children doing the bullying, if they do not participate. If you have not noticed, there are many Christians who don’t act like Christians.

            The child who receives the unwanted book and the parents are more affected. The other children can easily get a Bible from their Church, their parents, or many other sources.

            Why not answer the question I have asked over and over. Why can’t some Christians be satisfied with spreading the word everywhere except where the rules of the nation of which they are a member say they, as agents of the State, cannot?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Again receiving a Bible is voluntary. There is no force on anyone to accept a Bible. You’re question is we can be satisfied with spreading the word all over the world. Why should we be isolated, when the rules of the nation are not against Freedom of Religion. As I stated again and again, our own government, state and federal pray before meetings, talk about God in public settings, campaign, etc etc. What agents of the state or federal are not a part of the very nature of religion? If there is bullying going on because a child doesn’t participate that should be addressed immediately. I would not accept that for a minute, and I don’t think many Christians, or non believers would accept that. You are assuming that a child would receive a Bible they don’t want. Again its voluntary. If the parents aren’t aware of things in school with their children, there is something wrong with that picture. I believe parents need to be involved in their childrens lives, from the time they are babies until the time that a parent passes away. I was intimately involved with my boy while he was in school, because I love him. Those that aren’t involved should be ashamed of themselves.

          • roald

            Put yourself in the mind of an eight year old in that situation. Do you think that child knows accepting the book is voluntary even if the teacher says words to that effect? Do you think the parents know in advance this will happen? You cannot be that naive, so your brain must not be willing to think it through.

            Why not answer the question I have asked over and over. Why can’t some Christians be satisfied with spreading the word everywhere except where the rules of the nation of which they are a member say they, as agents of the State, cannot? I have a theory that I have seen repeated over and over on this site. Ignore most of a post, respond with something minor, repeat.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I think we have covered most of this again and again. I answered that question more than once. I don’t see how this discussion can progress any further.

          • roald

            I agree.

            You have never answered my question, just re-directed. I have come to expect this.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Fair enough

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Again, nothing about public school for a chils is voluntary.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            “Passing out the scriptures—you certainly can’t be blamed for that,” he told the Associated Press in February. “The great thing about Oklahoma is that I’ve been at a lot of school activities where—at least in our area—we still pray before football games. Some people pray before meetings and certainly honor our God-given rights.”

            Jamison Faught told the New American that student receipt of the Bibles is completely voluntary.

            “We don’t force Bibles on anybody. We simply ask if anyone would like them,” he said.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            If the bible folk rent the school facility after hours of mandatory attendance, fine.

            Otherwise,

            — because the students are required by law to be there, and

            — because the bibles are a religious artifact NOT part of a non-religious comparative study course,

            … then there is nothing voluntary or Constitutional about handing out bibles to the captive audience of legally bound, minor underage child citizens in a government facility that by definition must be secular and is prohibited from establishing any religion.
            __________

            And, yes, you absolutely know that handing out bibles via the authority of the government is establishing the religion of those bibles.

            That’s the reason to do it.

            As you say, you believe that folks who follow Judeo-Christian biblical principles are generally good and moral because of it (not true, but you believe it).

            And you say that you believe that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian biblical principles (not true, but you believe it).

            So you know you are trying to establish (or maintain already established) Judeo-Christian biblical religious principles.

            And you know public schools are government facilities.

            So you know you want government to establish (or maintain and enforce already established) Judeo-Christian biblical religious principles.

            So you know the government is establishing religion by behaving the way you prefer.

            And you know it is un-Constitutional for the government to establish religion.

            So you know that your preferences for bible hand-outs in public schools to children who are in mandatory attendance in those schools is un-Constitutional.

            And you know that you want it that way.

            And you know that it is un-Constitutional.
            __________

            But, because you think the majority religious belief is Judeo-Christian, then it is okay, and even preferable to other religious beliefs.

            So, I guess that, for you:

            — so long as a religion is already established,

            — and established so well as to be in the majority,

            — and for so long, for all the generations you personally know of,

            — for so long as to be a defining participant in the birth of the country,

            — that you therefore believe that it’s okay for the government to favor and support that religion

            — in preference to other religions

            — or in preference to staying out of religion and keeping religion out of government altogether.
            __________

            You keep referring to majorities of Judeo-Christians, so I guess you believe:

            — they don’t mind their religion appearing everywhere, including in government, and

            — hey, since Judeo-Christian religious beliefs and morals are already well established, then it ain’t the government that’s establishing it, so it’s okay for Judeo-Christianity to be everywhere, including in government.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I know what you’re saying, since you continue to say it. I disagree with your position. You look through the eyes of atheism, not from a concern about the Constitution. You want a voice as a minority, that is what the FFRF wants. It doesn’t change anything in the long run. At least I don’t see a change happening. Atheists still have rights to freedom of speech, still have rights to voting for government officials that they prefer in government, they still have the right not to believe in any god, they still can argue against Christians, they still can get angry, frustrated, say cruel things about one’s person because that person believes in Christ, I’m not sure what you’re afraid of, but it’s obvious you’re afraid of something. Do you think by stating the same things over and over again that somehow you will change the outlook of those that believe that Bible’s are not a bad thing but are for the benefit of people that desire to have them? The message of Christ is not in anyway going away. It will appear through the Bible, through people’s experiences, through the lives of people that try to live their lives according to the principles laid out by Jesus, even the sacrifices we must make in order to follow Christ. If you take the time to read the Gospels (the words in red lol) but seriously, if you can find anything that Christ says as being anything but about love, tell me about it. I’ll make an effort to explain anything Christ has to say. Do I care less about you because you’re an atheist. No, I care more for you (I know, nobody believes that, but its true). Christ is not the enemy, evil is. Evil intent is. The evil of the world is. You may say I don’t recognize evil but if you have lived as long as I have, with the experiences I have had, you could easily see what evil is. One person says he would support Satanist materials to be passed out in public schools. That to me is evil incarnate, and that ended my conversation with him. And it would with anyone. I hold on to the principles that make me who I am and no one will shake them. Fear of being criticised is non existent. I simply love God and Christ too much to be swayed, even if I’m not always correct. I consider Christ first, and if it were possible to share Christ in every setting possible, I would be for that. Voluntarily of course since Christ states it is a voluntary choice to follow him. I hope I’ve been clear enough now that we can address other things, or simply end our conversation, but I’ll leave that up to you.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            #1, “voluntary” does not stop it from being un-Constitutional for any agency of government to be a platform for religion of any kind.

            #2, since the under-age children-citizens are legally required to attend school, under threat of force, then, no, nothing for them about public school is “voluntary”.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That is true. Accepting a Bible is voluntary, however I will concede that groups would be a better way to do that, than a teacher handing out Bibles during class. Constitutionally religion will always have a place within government, or at least it has been so since the founding of the Constitution. But to settle this issue, I would support groups as opposed to a Teacher passing out Bibles. I have a question though. If all the parents are in agreement that at lunch Bibles could be passed out in their schools, would you be opposed to that? I understand it’s a what if, but I’m curious as to your response.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s still un-Constitutional for the gorernment to establish religion, regardless of force or supposed voluntarism on the part of anyone involed.

            The 1st Amendment doesn’t say, “… Congress shall make no foreced or involuntary law establishing religion …”
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            #1, being able to pull your child out of an (unannounced) religious presentation does not stop that religious presentation by an agency of the government from being un-Constitutional.

            #2, having to separate your child from others creates an un-Constitutional status of separate and obviously un-equal — why should a tax-payer be forced to involuntarily remove their child from the public school they are paying for simply because some religious fanatics want to un-Constitutionally co-opt the platform to spread their religious message?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I understand what your discussing and I agree with it. If for instance I was an atheist, it would seem unfair that my child was exposed to the Bible, the Quran, or the Torah as examples. I don’t want to force my beliefs on anyone, if people desire to know Christ through the Bible, than that opportunity should be available to anyone. If the issue is the person, a teacher is passing out Bibles instead of teaching math etc. I will concede that there are better methods such as groups (recommended by the Freedom of Religion Restoration act) so that no one is forced to go to a group, or mandated to be involved in a class. I have noticed something else though. When a teacher presented an exercise to stomp on a face of Jesus, or when a teacher had an exercise where the students were to describe what its like to be a Muslim in the U.S. I have wondered how the FFRF or an atheist would view those things in public school. Is it then, if its ok to do those things it should also be ok to present an experience for study of why atheism would be a bad thing? All being equal, is that equality as you view it?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            I see that meaning has no meaning for you, since the word “moral” and the word “ethical” are different words because they mean different things.

            Well, they mean different things for everyone but you.
            __________

            And of course “anything goes”.

            That’s freedom.

            Specifically, in this thread, that’s freedom of religion.

            Other than the Constitution, you and I need have NOTHING in common.

            Whatever you want for you, go for it.

            Whatever I want for me, get out of my way.

            The Constitution is enough BETWEEN us.

            Not your morals, nor mine.

            Nor my ethics (you wouldn’t understand).

            For me, it’s immoral to kill animals for trophies or skill or pleasure or food, especially considering alternatives.

            For you … not my concern for the most part, Constitutionally … except for suffering and depletion, you know, equivalent consideration and the common good — don’t fight dogs, and don’t wipe out the last bald eagle … we have a cascade down from the Constitution, Amendments, laws, regulations, and rules for that.

            Don’t need no religion.

            For me, it would be immoral to consider anything personal about a person as my concern when considering them for public or private transactions — their sex, weight, age, religion, sexual orientation or partnering preference, if any, single parent, surrogate, sperm donor, and so on are all none of my business, morally.

            For you … well, in public at least, I consider it my business to arrest you if you as a publicly licensed business person discriminate against any group of our fellow citizen for such reasons.

            I pay attention.

            I am here.

            To uphold and defend the Constitution.

            Between us.

            I think Jesus would like that.

            And suggest that no true disciple would be a business person or government agent or even a property owner.

            And believers would be, well, nice.

            To everyone.

            And not make a show of themselves.

            .E.v.e.r.

            Praying in public?

            Not so much.

            Distributing bibles in government schools to involuntarily present minor citizen children?

            No, absolutely not.

            He might have a parable for that.

            You know, something with a surprise ending, calling on you to let go of your hard wrought (mis)beliefs, and think anew.

            C’mon, you can do it.

            Parable me.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Too long a message. Break them down into smaller comments, and I will address any that are not personal attacks.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            My post was shorter than many of yours that we all have responded to.

            Start your response on any point you feel reactive to, one at a time.

            Make as many responses, or as long a response, as you want.

            It’s all cool.
            __________

            We don’t know each other from Adam’s far oxen, so I have no idea where you define “personal attacks” from any of my posts.

            If I attacked you, point it out, I’ll apologize, and fix it.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            No apology necessary. I think you’re a good man, and I think if I was an atheist I would probably argue the points that you do. So with all due respect, I have nothing against you. We have differences of opinion, but that is to be expected in any conversation. I have some difficulty with longer posts because I have a disease well I have severe diabetes, and it effects my eyes. Sometimes I get severe headaches so it’s possible sometimes I don’t comprehend the long comments well. Thank you for your kind comment. Seriously, I have nothing against you personally. I really do care about people’s thoughts and opinions even if I don’t agree with them. We are all human beings, we have emotions and deep roots that form our worldviews. I apologize to you if I have been rude. It’s not my intent.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            #1, the bible and it’s authors are not American legislators, jurists, or executives working from the Constitution, the supreme law of the US — in fact, they’re also all dead, and have no superior rights in the US.

            Hmm … that seems to obviate any #2 on down!
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I think what you fail to understand, or at least my observation from our discussion is that if you believe in God, and Christ as God, as I do, I can stick to the laws of the land so to speak and still be able to represent God as the ultimate in “law”. You say that they all or dead, but if you were to realize that Christ died and was alive again after three days then it is a different perspective. He conquored death, and sin (evil). Our constitution is the basis for our freedoms and our society as a whole and I think you would agree with that. It was based on concepts by our founders, and their experiences at the time, and yet we hold to those very values. The same is true of the Bible. For over 2000 years now Christians follow Christ, not all of us, and not in perfection. Neither do the politicians of our day follow to the letter of the constitution, but the principles we try to maintain.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Actually, no, you haven’t said anything about what to you is immoral.

            Except ‘Satanism’.

            And you haven’t said what it is about Satisnism that you think makes it immoral.

            Do tell!

            Ooops, off subject, which is:

            Presentation of anything religious by the state, especially to under-age children citizens involuntarily in public school, is un-Constitutional … ANY religion or ‘belief’ not contained in the Constitution and the cascade from there.

            Well, back to Satanism.

            What’s that all about for you?

            What’s your deep and engrosing experience of it that turned your around and polarized your morals regarding it?
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You can’t answer that question for yourself? Do you have children? I take it that you’re in support of Satanism. Well I’m not and never will be. And, I will fight until my last dying breath to keep Satanist’s away from my kids and especially my little Grandbaby’s. If you want to support Satanism, we can stop this discussion right now. I will have nothing to do with a person that supports and represents pure evil.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, @DMoR, neither I nor anyone else can answer a question to you about you.

            The reason we ask you about you is because you have made unexplained statements here, statements without substantiation, so we are asking follow up questions of you about you.

            You have stated conclusory beliefs about certain things.

            It is generally a natural part of normal conversation flow for others to follow up and to ask back,

            “… Oh? Is there more about that for you? …”

            If you have nothing to say, no response, nothing to add to help us understand the genesis and foundation, evolution and development of your beliefs as stated, then tell us there is no more, for you.

            Say perhaps something like,

            “… I’m not curious about ‘x’, so although I have an opinion about ‘x’, I can’t tell you why, and I don’t care to explore further, I’m satisfied and done thinking about ‘x’, it’s that unimportant to me. …”

            But to tell us to answer our own questions that we asked you about you because you … uh … because you have … uh … you have nothing further to add … to your prior unexplained summary comments and judgements, is just … weird.

            Unprecedented in my 60+ years of social conversation.

            Okeydokey, then.

            We’re done, aren’t we?

            Everything you’ve share is baseless opinion, no further background will be forthcoming.

            Got it.

            Closed case.

            Spouting done.

            Spigot off.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            It may be baseless opinion, it may be very relevant. I suppose that is up to the reader, or commenter. So if you want to continue, break down your questions in an easy format, such as comment 1. Why do I believe in God. One comment. Then after that set of comments is done, and you want to know more about my opinion baseless or relevant, ask the next question. Is that fair?. That way I can focus on one set of criteria at a time, instead of having to consider such a wide range of questions. That confuses the primary issue to me.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            #1, we’re talking about Constitutionality, the supreme law of the US, not “morality”.

            #2, “morality” obviously is in the eye of the beholder, exampled by the school as it illegally used their agency of government to present and distribute religion — to the captive audience of minors, no less!

            #3, “morality” as expressed by those following the bible is un-American, such as the folks wanting a referendum voted on to permit the extra-legal killing of gays by citizens in the street as the bible instructs, and the counter-demonstrations against gays that including bible versus and nooses.

            So, @DTMoR, “morality”, especially irresponsible morality based on external dependencies, such as so-called bible-based morality, is not “moral” in any sense, but is an abdication of personal responsibility:

            “…The bible made me do it! …”

            … is no excuse for man’s inhumanity to man, for un-Constitutional behavior, for un-American activities calling for the disenfranchisement and murder of fellow citizens.

            Like your comment on Pakistan starving for bibles, the only use for bibles is fodder for food — ground up and mixed with molasses and newspaper, a great feed for barnyard animals.

            But NEVER for government, and especially NEVER for kids.
            .

          • roald

            I don’t like to dance, so I vote for the Southern Baptists, the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention, of course, since all of the others are heathens who should be wiped from the planet as our lord intended.

          • roald

            First, you know nothing about the Satanists. Second, I consider the bible immoral. Why is your opinion more correct than mine? Isn’t it better to leave religion to the home, the church, and the street corner?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I’m certainly glad I don’t know much about Satanists. It may be better for you, and that is fine. For me, there is no reason to keep my beliefs in my home, and I don’t go to church. The world is Christ’s church. I follow Christ so that is why I’m supportive of anyone that wants access to Christ, the opportunity to recieve him. That should not effect you since you don’t desire seeking him.

          • roald

            Hmmm, “I’ve made up my mind. Don’t bother me with facts.”?

            What about the children of parents who do not want children involved in your religion?

            Beware of practicing your piety before men in order
            to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your
            right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray,go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in
            secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yeah, pray quietly in private on your own …

            … but then they can’t inspect the little troops to make sure they are marching in lock step …

            … how holy can that be?

            … how else can they enforce Chri$t on the little ones?

            … you’ve got to get them when they’re young and impressionable.

            … so they learn that they’ve gotta Pay the Lord, er, Prai$e the Lord!

            How many bible salesman does it take to turn an athiest?

            One, if you get ’em young.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No, it has nothing to do with seeking Christ.

            Constitutionally, we do not desire to have the government force Christ on our children, on other people’s children, and become the self-perpetuating ‘authority’ on Christ, instead of doing that for ourselves in our home and wherever we bring our children to share in our ‘seeking’ and celebration and Christian work.

            As A Christian, I would feel totally coopted to have the government tell me, my children, and everyone’s children who Christ is according to the government, and how we should seek Christ according to the government.

            I hear such kill-the-government complaints from Christian conservatives about the incompetence of government, yet they somehow want the government to be the authority on Christ.

            Jeesh!
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            You haven’t heard that from me. I do not attend a particular branch of Christian churches. I follow Christ and his message to the world. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything that they do not wish to do. Again that would be a mandate. I do not support mandated religion. I support the freedom of religion. When you say “we” I would suggest that many would not be in agreement with that statement, in fact if the numbers are correct, that the U.S. is roughly 80% Christian, the word “we” maybe should have said ‘you’. There is no authority other than Christ in such matters. Because some Christians behave badly, doesn’t suggest that Christ does. People that follow Christ want to practice things that Christ taught. One of the major reasons that I would not want a Satanist in public schools is because, Satan is the definition of evil and evil intentions. An atheist likely would not understand the difference, because their worldview eliminates them from researching the Bible for truth. That is why I disagree with atheists and their positions. They may well be good people, have families, do great things have self morals etc. The difference is that Christians base their lives (or at least I try to) on the message of Christ, his love, his very nature.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You do know that the bibles are not American, and that the authors, as well as Moses on down through Jesus to the Popes are not American.

            And that none of them have any authority in the US.

            You do know that America is not a majority-rules country, but a Constitutional republic capitalist democracy (descriptors ad nauseum).

            You do know that someone with the name Peter Blaise is Christian.

            You do know Christians do not agree with each other, often to the death of both parties in a disagreement.

            You do not that the road to hell is paved with GOOD intentions, not evil intentions.

            Evil intentions are usually found hiding in high places, like the anti-Christ Christian Davidians in Congress, elected with unabashed, adoring backing of Christian evangelicals.

            You can’t even speak for Christians.

            It is laughable that you pretend to speak for atheists.

            Try speaking for yourself without any reference to others, not Jesus, not 80% who you think MUST agree with you, therefore you’re more likely to be right, not atheists.

            Yourself.

            That you believe your Christ-like-ness demands a particular, unarguable, infallible interpretation of the Constitution, and the insertion of what you believe into a government-controlled sphere of influence over the mandatory attendance of CHILDREN tells me a lot.

            That you don’t even think it’s YOU speaking also tells me a lot.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          • KLB999

            I find the bible and the Christian faith to be extremely immoral. Just like you wouldn’t want a teacher passing out satanist literature to your children, I wouldn’t want them passing out bibles – or any other religious materials – to MINE.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Many people do. That doesn’t make it so. When the U.S. population is mostly Christian they will be under attack. I know you wouldn’t want anything passed out you don’t believe in, I can understand that. Since I believe in the Bible and the message of Christ, I support Bibles in the hands of anyone that wants one.

          • KLB999

            Awwww…poor persecuted Christians. Have you ever heard of the tyranny of the majority? That’s what’s really going on here and it’s unconstitutional. I support bibles in the hands of everyone who wants one too – as long as it isn’t the government doing the handing out of them.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I have heard of atheism, and the failure of it in previous societies that adopted atheism. Russia is a prime example. But again you would disagree with the failure of atheism in society. So I could as easily say poor persecuted atheists. Again I’m glad you support Bibles in the hands of those that want them. I see no problem with passing out Bibles, the Torah, the Quran, etc. Especially if it is for education about the different cultures, the advancement of societies through religious beliefs, even assignments like the one where the teacher asked students about Muslims and how they would react as a Muslim in America and study of the Quran. I think the same can be said for Christianity, or the Torah, Jewish beliefs. The more we understand each other the better our culture and society will work. The public school system is a perfect opportunity to do that, as well as camps, groups, etc. The atheist would not understand that since selectively they would not want to be involved with religion in any manner or form, at least that is what I have been told. By the way I am not popular with some Christians because of that way of thinking, but that is fine. They are my opinions only, and other people have theirs as well.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You keep speechifying off topic:

            Separation between church and state.

            (And NOT ‘atheism’ as a state infliction against religious citizens.)
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Take atheism as an example: If I were to say that professor’s are professing their non beliefs to students, (which they are doing) I’m sure you would feel that is just fine. Or would you? Is it ok for a professor to express his atheistic view in science class? The FFRF has an agenda, a purpose. I’ll give you an example of that. A group of atheists tried to remove what appeared to be a cross from the 9/11 memorial, by which when the building collapse, girders came together looking like a cross which is now part of the memorial. They took it to court and the court dismissed it immediately. Why do you think the court did that? You see, no matter how hard you try to dismiss what the FFRF has in mind, they attack anything related to Christians, while I see no evidence that they are ‘attacking’ other religions. Why is that?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            OFF TOPIC AGAIN!

            (a) ‘Professors’ have nothing to do with involuntary under age citizen children’s mandatory attendance in public schools.

            No one in a position of authority over mandatory attendees, especially under-age children, minors, should speak their opinions or personal beliefs.

            Even if asked, the answer is deflection and redirection for a purpose:

            “… Great question, how would you figure out your own understanding of an inquiry such as that? …”

            … then assist them teaching themselves to pursue it.

            I think a general NIH STFU or TYFSOTTS * is in order for extracuricular blah-blah-blah in those cases regardless of the topic or content.

            Start a separate thread if you want to argue with elective course-college professors.

            (b) You conflate FFRF and “a group of athiests”.

            (c) You offer no examples of any non-Christian religion established by the state.

            Perhaps you should stick to the article and it’s origins.
            __________

            * NIH = Not In Here, STFU is easily searchable, TYFSOTTS = Take Your Free Speech Out To The Streets.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            It’s only off topic when it applies to an atheistic situation, at least according to you. As I’ve demonstrated, our Presidents did, and do. Our Congressman did and do. Our very founders of the Constitution did as you can clearly see from their quotes. Are you saying that the FFRF are not a group of atheists? There are no non-Christian religion established by the state, or federal. There are no mandated religions, that is my point. If it were mandated it would be against the first amendment. There is no mandate in a voluntary exchange of Bibles in a public domain, such as a public school. That is what the Attorney General is making evident. Do you understand YET? I’ll take my free speech and my faith in God, and Christ anywhere I feel I should. You’re on a Christian comment section and your telling me to take my Christian views somewhere else? It would make more sense that you’re atheist opinions be taken to an atheist site don’t you think?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @DTMoR wrote “… It’s only off topic when it applies to an atheistic situation, at least according to you …”

            Peter Blaise responds: No, I was referring to PROFESSORS as being off topic since
            ‘professors’ seemed a voluntary attendance college thing, versus the topic being about mandatory attendance primary public (government) schools.

            I don’t care about religion or atheism.

            I care about the government NOT taking a stance period, religion, anti-religion, this-or-that religion, no matter, it ain’t the government’s business, especially with the mandatory audience of under-age citizens who can’t even take legal responsibility for themselves.
            __________

            @DTMoR wrote “… our Presidents … Congress [ people ] … founders of the Constitution … [ believed in God and or revered the bible and or honored Jesus and or were Christian ?!? ] as you can clearly see from their quotes …”

            Considering that some of those folks are not only dead, from another time, with little imagination for new life without a monarchy, obviously trying to one-up a local king (George) with a remote king (God), unable to truly imagine the meaning of even their own words about equality, individuality, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, yet smart enough to leave God out of government, and considering that they and the others you mention were acting as individuals outside the authority of government function when they made public demonstrations of their religion, you never received any argument from anyone here whatsoever.

            Again, the topic was government sponsored religion in public schools to involuntarily present minors.
            __________

            @DTMoR wrote “… Are you saying that the FFRF are not a group of atheists? …”

            No, I’m saying that all or any group or individual atheists are not the FFRF, and not all FFRF are atheists.
            __________

            @DTMoR wrote “… There are no non-Christian religion established by the state …”

            Explain the basis of your belief in that to those in this thread that think the state has instituted atheism, Islam, the religion of evolution (!), and so on.

            They could use a clearing of their confused minds, and, apparently, you could help.
            __________

            @DTMoR wrote “… There are no mandated religions, that is my point. If it were mandated it would be against the first amendment. There is no mandate in a voluntary exchange of Bibles in a public domain, such as a public school. That is what the Attorney General is making evident. Do you understand YET? …”

            Handing bible to children in mandatory attendance in state schools is mandating the religion of the bible.

            Regardless, your concepts of “mandate” and “voluntary” are extra legal, no where in the Constitution.

            Is it okay for me to kill someone if I do it softly, lovingly, Christianity?

            No.

            Because those approaches to killing are extra legal, no where in the laws cascading down from the powers of the Constitution, where there are degrees of forethought, spontaneity, accident, negligence, and so on.

            Why waste everyone’s time using the state to hand out bibles?

            Just don’t do it.

            Stand off school property and hand them out there.

            Wow, what a tough choice.

            Evangelical and proselytizing Christian bigots are such self-inflicted martyrs and suffering bastards.
            __________

            @DTMoR wrote “… I’ll take my free speech and my faith in God, and Christ anywhere I feel I should …”

            Feel free to do it in PUBLIC and PRIVATE.

            Yahoo!

            Try it on state property as an agent of the state, and it’s off to the Supreme Court with you for violation of the 1st Amendment of the Constitution, the supreme law of the land.

            @DTMoR wrote “… You’re on a Christian comment section and your telling me to take my Christian views somewhere else? It would make more sense that you’re atheist opinions be taken to an atheist site don’t you think? …”

            Nope.

            I think this is a perfect venue to air your views — which are obviously NOT Christian.

            They are YOUR views.

            I and other Christians disagree with you.

            And your Christ disagrees with you.

            Have you loaded up your cut-and-paste buffer with quotes from the mouth of Christ, and examples set by Christ of Christ-like behavior?

            I’m thinking of something about … dust off your sandals and move on where you’re not welcome … love your neighbor … pray in private … own nothing … disengage from government … don’t be a hypocrite … don’t abuse power … love children … be a child.

            Anyway, since Jesus wrote nothing, and no one who knew Jesus wrote anything, all we have is telephone-tag down through the ages, speculation and posturing by non witnesses, apparently spilling more of their own personal compromises (think Paul!), than any possible accurate testimony, no matter how powerfully written — all fiction, and, as each author’s autobiography, the worst kind of fiction: self aggrandizing.

            But, hey, since the Council of Nicea, most of the thought provoking stuff in the various bibles was tossed out as too confusing for Constantine, who had very little patience — not very Christ like, eh what?

            So even if you want a bible that testified to the life of Christ, there ain’t one.

            And even if there were, why on earth would you trust the government, the government that racist white supremacist religious fundamentalist conservative bigots hate so much, the government they want to kill so much, why on earth would ANY religious person want that horrible, abusive, wasteful, ineffective, poor BLACK hangers-on, BLACK Muslim-lead government be their mouthpiece?

            =8^o

            😉

            And if you think my last paragraph there was hyperbole, re-read the comments in this thread, and try to ignore each self-identified Christian I could quote on each of those indictments.

            Really, separation of church and state is good for both church and state.

            Don’t try to combine INRI and IRSdoh!
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Russia, er, the U. S. S. R. was NOT an atheist religion, but a totalitarian dictatorship, a society defined by fear of authority, an authority expressing it’s greed, power, wealth, subterfuge.

            When the King of England tossed the pope and married and remarried to his heart’s content, did their popelessness define their society?

            Nope, it was a society defined by fear of authority, an authority expressing it’s greed, power, wealth, subterfuge.

            In both cases, God or atheism were never defining elements.

            Welcome to the US where we are trying to acknowledge and enforce that God is not a defining element of GOVERNMENT.

            If society in any measure sees “God” as defining, good for them … if it is good for them.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Wow, you see Christianity as a do or die thing, not a cooperative thing.

            Somehow you believe that the number and percentage of Christians is more important than respect for all.

            You fear attack, so … what, attack first?

            Kill that Constitution.

            Here, take a Christian-ish bible, instead!
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Again you are misrepresenting what I’m saying. When did I say Kill the Constitution? The attorney general in this particular instance wants to support the majority of parents (there was only one complaint which the FFRF attacked all the other parents who have a say in the matter indirectly because of one complaint.) I’ve said it once and will remind you again, that a group setting would be an appropriate solution to this problem, (which would not have been a problem in the first place if it were not for the FFRF). Believing in God and Christ and living a life based on Christ is a good thing, not something with evil intent. It is people’s choice to believe in God and Christ, if they choose not to, that is up to them, or up to you. Again, government state and federal have made representations of God for as long as I can remember, in the form of the pledge of allegiance, which states “Under God” (an addition to separate the U.S. from atheism practiced in the USSR)

            The Pledge of Allegiance

            I pledge Allegiance to the flag
            of the United States of America
            and to the Republic for which it stands,
            one nation under God, indivisible,
            with Liberty and Justice for all.

            The original Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy (1855 – 1931), a Baptist minister, in August 1892. The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth’s Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader’s Digest of its day. In 1892, Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools’ quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute – his Pledge of Allegiance.

            The very nature of the Pledge is an inclusion of God in Public schools. The FFRF tried to have “Under God” removed as unconstitutional, but a young woman in high school went before the court along with other students to fight against the FFRF, and she won. Do you know why she won? It’s simple. It is not an infringement on other people’s rights. Applying this same principal, Bibles given to other people who want them, even in public schools, on a voluntary basis, does not eliminate a right, it enforces the right.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            You kill the Consisution when you prefer the government present the books of Moses -on-down, and demand that government respect what you believe to be the laws of your Jesus as superior to the Constitution.

            You kill the Constitution when you claim that the implementstion of the religious desires of the majority of the parents are superior to the Constitution regrding the government institution of the local public school that requires mandatory attendance of under-age children citizens.

            The FFRF attacked no one.

            When un-Constitutional misbehavior is brought to their attention, they ask government institutions to comply with the Constitution regarding non-establishment of religion.

            Then they present suit in court when they find government institutions not comlying with the Constitution regarding non-establishment of religion.

            A judge takes it from there.

            Adversarial?

            By definition, that’s the way the American judicial system works, and voluntarily so.

            Attacking parents?

            That’s incindiary hyperbole.

            The parents attacked the Constitution first.

            The FFRF responded, they did not attack, and upheld and defended the Constitution.

            The FFRF has no authority to call a meeting of the school authorities and parents; the judge does.

            Believing in and living a life based on God and Christ is no better or worse than not — it is irrelevant; visit any prison full of violent offendors and ask who knows Jesus; visit any mass grave site and ask who did the killing.

            Sadly, reprobate politicians take advantage of anything, especially un-Constitutional fervor in the populace, and enact things like a pledge to a piece of cloth during wartime; or add the words “under god” later, against the author’s possible knowledge or intention, during the panicked, fearful McCarthy era, where un-Constitutional demands to know the minds of others was a daily governmental invasion.

            Have you no shame?

            The pledge you mention was originally a feeble attempt to eneergize pride in a long-post-civil-war country that the author of it felt was in need of cheering up.

            The pledge was later co-opted by a flag salesperson to inculcate their product, raising cceptance and demand.

            $$$

            Yet all that completely skipped the first world war.

            Regretably, more than half a century after it’s creation, some politicians found it again in the second world war, and used it to separate us from them — how American!

            And a decade later, more politicans (NOT the dead author) added “god” to further separate us from them — how American!

            So much for the “… United .. one nation …” in the pledge, what with all that separation.

            So, no, the “very nature of the pledge” was NOT the insertion of “god into th epublic schools” because the “god” was inderted long after the death of the author of the pledge.

            Your sources lie like a bad rug.

            And, by extension, by willful extension of not checking your sources, you also lie like a very bad rug.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            ..

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Satanism is not imoral to Satanists.

            Christianity is.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Show me ONE Judeo-Christian institution that is free from immorality.

            One.

            Regardless, the question is about religious presentations to our children while our children are involuntarily in public school session.

            Good luck coming up with a way to eliminate anyone from ‘your’ community … because as soon as someone else shows up, it’s suddenly THEIR community too, equally.

            Welcome to the US of A — when did you arrive so recently that you are not familiar with our ways yet?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “… [ edited for clarity ] if you have children [ in public school ], would you be inclined to allow a Satanist to pass out coloring books and candy to your child [while your child was in mandatory attendance during school session ]? …”

            That’s a bogus question, @DreamTheaterRocks:disqus, since public schools at least are religion free …

            … at least, in this case, they will be after proper court action and application of the Constitution.
            __________

            Now, even though you say you have absolutely no experience or understanding of Satanism, you seem to pontificate about it — why is it that ignorance doesn’t shut you up, even self-proclaimed ignorance?

            And yet you go on and on and on … ad nauseum.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Not much of an answer is it. Do you want to try answering a what if question, or would you prefer to end this conversation. You assume I don’t know things, and yet you have no idea what I know. Assumptions are again a logical fallacy. And you continue to present logical fallacies in your discussion. Why do you keep telling me to shut up. Have you suddenly gotten some magical power that would shut me up? I don’t think so. Calling me ignorant, no experience, ad nauseum, is not even appropriate in a logical conversation and yet you continue to do it. Why? I have a right to my opinions, logic, reason, just as you do. I’m not telling you to shut up because I disagree with you. I’ve asked you questions. Will you answer them, or deflect them?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Everyone answered your dumb question before you asked it, @DreamTheaterRocks:disqus, with a resounding “… NO! …”, because as upholders and defenders of the Constitution, we don’t want ANY religion presented in ANY government sphere.
            ________

            I call you ignorant because you admit that you know nothing about the subject you keep writing about.

            Get smart, or stop writing.

            Or keep complaining — you do that well, at least.

            I never told you to shut up.

            To quote my exact words (an impossibility for you, apparently), I wrote,

            “… why is it that ignorance doesn’t shut you up … your self-proclaimed ignorance? …”

            I wondered why your own brain didn’t tell you to shut up when your own brain knows that you know nothing about the subject.

            You didn’t answer — why does your own brain not shut you up?

            It’s a rhetorical question.

            Not an opinion.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            We are done as of this comment. I am unwilling to have a discussion with a person that argues nonsense and believes it.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @DTMoR, you’re the one who said they knew nothing about a particular subject … except you knew you were against it.

            If, like you, others were also “… unwilling to have a discussion with a person that argues nonsense and believes it …”, then you’d have no one to speak to.

            If you have no reason to oppose Satanism except you just oppose it, without understanding it one iota, then fine, be that way.

            At least that’s a response, if not an answer.

            And now we know we will get no more out of you on the subject.

            I also know nothing about Satanism, but I don’t care because it’s irrelevant to this discussion, which I see as:

            our governement is prohibited from proffering ANY religion.

            Explaining any religion makes no difference to me — keep it out of government.

            You seem to think an explanation of Christianity overwhelms the 1st Amendment prohibition against establishment of religion, because, hey, according to you, Christianity is a good thing, so how can government be against a good thing?

            Arguments that the government is neither for nor against any religion, only separate form all religions … do not sway you.

            Arguments that Christianity is neither good nor bad except for the individual practitioners, how they behave, some good, some bad … do not sway you.

            Ahh, but in spite of your self-proclaimed ignorance about Satanism, you KNOW you are against it.

            I agree about being unwilling to to have a discussion with a person who (not ‘that’) argues nonsense and believes it.

            Thanks for the example.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            No religious beliefs shoudl have access to government establishment.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Why wouldn’t you be happy to have the Satanists standing beside the Gideons in a “voluntary” attendance (hahahahaha) public school presentation to children?
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            … in PUBLIC schools.
            .

          • roald

            My copy of the Constitution says that government (the teacher is an agent of the state) has no business in religion.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Please read that part of the Constitution, and send me what you are referring to

          • roald

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The courts have consistently held that to include state governments and actions of agents of the state.

            Tell me, why are Christians so insecure in their beliefs that they are not satisfied with promoting that religion in the home, in the church, through media and on street corners?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Do you know of any laws where government has created a religion? That is what that statement tells us. It also tells the government they cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion. There is nothing insecure about sharing the Word of God. Since you quoted from the Bible, the great commission (which is why Christianity has flourished) is about sharing the good news of Christ to all who will listen. It’s about to me anyway giving people an opportunity to accept Christ based on his message. That message has been promoted around the globe for at least 2000 years. It isn’t satisfaction it is an attempt to save, through Christ. Christians have done a really bad job at this, and yet, here we are trying to get a message out about Love. Does it change people’s hearts and souls. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes however it does, and when that happens people’s lives are changed. Again you may not want to believe that to be true and you may never want to talk to us confused Christians. But if a person that wants to follow Christ can share in a loving way who he is, that is what the message should be. Not one of division. What you’re asking I think is why don’t we leave all of this to privacy. That same question could be asked about any situation from religion, to atheism, to science. We as human beings want to share and that is why we do so. That is why we have discussion sites like this one. We all want to be heard.

          • roald

            The courts have long held that this part of the Constitution includes state and local laws and actions taken by representatives of the State, such as this teacher.

            To all who will listen in the US does not include captive audiences when a representative of the State is doing the talking.

            Respectfully, you are misinterpreting what I said. I do not have a problem with street corner preachers, televangelists, work or school prayer clubs (as long as the controlling organization is fair to all), and any other trying to preach the word of their religion unless the preachers are representatives of the State.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Ok, the latter part of what you said, I agree with you on. Being fair to all could mean almost anything goes. So I can’t agree with that part. Representatives in Congress, the senate and the administration have prayer meetings, religious symbolism (the chamber of Congress and the 10 commandments, which was noticed in Netanahu’s speech to Congress) and again at State capitals. This is reality. Another reality will be the election. Presidential Candidates are coming out with their positions based on the Freedom of Religion restoration act, both federally, and at the state levels. There are Chaplins that work for the Government, the military, etc. They are entities of our government infrastructure. The issue to me at least is not that the constitution says that we cannot have prayer, symbols, stating God in speech’s in fact its the opposite. We can and should have representation of God. The separation of church and state is to protect religion from becoming a mandated religion to all people’s of the U.S. There is no mandated religion that I know of currently. For a representative such as a senator to have prayer sessions isn’t the same as a government that mandates we all must share the same religion, or non religion.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It desn’t say “create” a religion.

            It says “estblish” a religion.

            And for an agent of the government to hand a bible to an involuntarily present child in a government instution is establishing that bible as the state’s religion over that child.

            ONE child deserves 100% of their Constitutional protections FROM religion being forced on them.

            That child deserves 100% freedom OF their own religion for themselves without the teacher taking it over and directing it.

            And, despite Msrs Paul’s pandering electionareering and bold-faced lies, that ONE child deserves 100% freedom FROM the religion being foisted on them by the agent of the government.

            What would you call a teacher who pushes their religion on your child, a child who is mandatorily attending public school?

            Tyranny?

            Me too.

            The Constitution forbits ALL of it.

            The Constitution does not set up a screening board to make sure the teacher sells only the majority religion, or this or that religion, sort of, not that they are divinity masters in ANY religion.

            And especially in grammar school, the thought of comparative cultures and religions via bibles, torahs, korans, iching, various buddhist and hindu tombs, 500 native American tribas, Roman, Greek, Egyptian history … is preposterous.

            You’re selling Giddeon Christianity only, admit it.

            And the governement is not a venue, especially to an under-age, captive audience.

            They deserve better protection of their rights.

            Not invasion and disregard of their rights.

            They’re CHILDREN.

            Stop trying to indoctrinate them with your personal choice of boogity-woogity.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Stop trying to impose your will on me. It won’t work. As I state over and over again, you’re not saying anything new. You’re expressing your opinion. That is fine, just don’t expect me to agree with you. I won’t.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s not ‘opinion’.

            It’s the Constitution, settled law.

            You can look at it twice, one hundred, even ten thousand times.

            And it will still be the Constitution, settled law.

            Dismissing it because there’s there’s noting new when looking at settled law twice, one hundred, even ten thousand times is delusional.

            Hmm … “… the sun CAN’T be there, because, hey, it’s THERE every time I look at it! …”

            That’s YOUR (lack of) logic.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Lets speak about the Constitution:

            George Washington – First President of the United States of America

            “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”

            – George Washington

            “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.”

            – George Washington

            We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions…

            – George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789

            Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.

            – George Washington, Prayer

            True religion affords to government its surest support.

            – George Washington

            It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.

            – George Washington (this quote is unconfirmed)

            Samuel Adams – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.

            – Samuel Adams

            We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.

            – Samuel Adams

            The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.

            – Samuel Adams

            The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

            – Samuel Adams

            United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God

            Congress printed a Bible for America and said:

            “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”

            – United States Congress 1782

            Congress passed this resolution:

            “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.”

            – United States Congress 1782

            By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:

            “In God We Trust”

            – United States Congress 1864

            John Adams -President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Ammendment

            The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.

            – John Adams

            The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

            – John Adams

            The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.

            – John Adams

            Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

            – John Adams

            I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.

            – John Adams

            The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.

            – John Adams

            [The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.

            – John Adams

            As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.

            – John Adams

            We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

            – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomfirmed quote)

            Abigail Adams – Wife of John Adams

            “The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.”

            – Abigail Adams

            Patrick Henry – Early America Leader

            There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.

            – Patrick Henry

            It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

            – Patrick Henry (uncomfirmed quote)

            John Jay – First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

            Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

            – John Jay

            The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.

            – John Jay

            John Hancock – Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            …that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ and that the whole Earth may be filled with his glory.

            – John Hancock, as Governor of Massachusetts 1791

            We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.

            – John Adams and John Hancock (uncomformed quote)

            Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

            “The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.”

            – Benjamin Rush

            Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education.

            – Benjamin Rush

            Christianity is the only true and perfect religion…

            – Benjamin Rush

            John Witherspoon – Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Continental Congress

            “He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.”

            – John Witherspoon

            John Dickinson – Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress

            “The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”

            – John Dickinson

            Benjamin Franklin

            “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.”

            – Benjamin Franklin

            Thomas Jefferson – President

            God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.

            – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

            The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man

            – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

            Daniel Webster – Early American Politician

            Education is useless without the Bible.

            – Daniel Webster

            Noah Webster – “Schoolmaster of the Republic”

            Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct.

            – Noah Webster

            In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.

            – Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

            Joseph Story – Supreme Court Justice

            “I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

            – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829

            United States of America National Anthem – Francis Scott Key

            “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’”

            – USA National Anthem, Third Verse

            USA Constitution – First Ammendment

            “Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth…”

            – US Constitution, Before signature text declaring our Christian Nation

            Note: “Year of our Lord” means Jesus Christ is Lord of the USA. (Founding fathers didn’t use year of the Lord)

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [Christian denomination], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

            – US Constitution, First Ammendment (Christian religious freedom brackets added)

            Andrew Jackson – President of the United States of America

            “[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.”

            – Andrew Jackson

            Abraham Lincoln – President of the United States of America

            In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            This nation under God

            – Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial

            And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.

            – Abraham Lincoln

            Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh. (Matthew 18:7)

            – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

            We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.

            – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial

            Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…

            – Abraham Lincoln

            “Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance on Him who has never yet forsaken this favored land, are still competent to adjust in the best way all our present difficulties.”

            – Abraham Lincoln, President, March 4, 1861 inaugural address

            United States Supreme Court

            “This is a Christian nation”

            – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

            “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation”

            – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

            Washington Monument

            Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20)

            – Washington Monument

            Search the Scriptures (John 5:39)

            – Washington Monument

            The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7)

            – Washington Monument

            May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence

            – Washington Monument

            In God We Trust

            – Washington Monument

            “Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”)

            – Washington Monument

            James Madison – A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America

            “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”

            – James Madison

            “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government”

            – James Madison

            “Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.”

            – James Madison

            Northwest Ordinance – July 13, 1787

            Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

            – Northwest Ordinance, Article 3

            Original Harvard University Student Handbook 1636

            Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well: the main end of his life and studies is “to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life” (John 17.3), and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Prov. 2.3).

            – Original Harvard University Student Handbook

            William McGuffy – author of McGuffy Reader, which was used for over 100 years in American schools as the primary textbook

            The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has this author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.

            – William McGuffy, author of McGuffy Reader

            Congress – First Prayer in Congress

            O LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle! Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.

            – First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia

            Calvin Coolidge- President of the United States of America

            “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.”

            – Calvin Coolidge

            Harry S. Truman – President of the United States of America

            “The fundamental basis of this Nation’s law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul.”

            – Harry S. Truman

            “This Nation was established by men who believed in God. … You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand.’

            – Harry S. Truman

            Dwight D. Eisenhower – President of the United States of America

            “Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of America saw it, and thus with God’s help, it will continue to be.”

            – Dwight D. Eisenhower

            “I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism.”

            – Theodore Roosevelt, President

            “This is a Christian nation.”

            – Harry Truman, President

            “[The United States is] founded on the principles of Christianity”

            – Franklin D. Roosevelt, President

            Ronald Reagan – President of the United States of America

            Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the Bible.

            – Ronald Reagan

            Deep religious beliefs stemming from the Old and New Testaments of the Bible inspired many of the early settlers of our country, providing them with the strength, character, convictions, and faith necessary to withstand great hardship and danger in this new and rugged land. These shared beliefs helped forge a sense of common purpose among the widely dispersed colonies — a sense of community which laid the foundation for the spirit of nationhood that was to develop in later decades.

            – Ronald Reagan

            The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers’ abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible’s teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

            – Ronald Reagan

            For centuries the Bible’s emphasis on compassion and love for our neighbor has inspired institutional and governmental expressions of benevolent outreach such as private charity, the establishment of schools and hospitals, and the abolition of slavery.

            – Ronald Reagan

            “The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in shaping the history and character of this Nation, and so many of its citizens, has by Senate Joint Resolution 165 authorized and requested the President to designate the year 1983 as the ‘Year of the Bible.’”‘

            – Ronald Reagan

            Inside the Bible’s pages lie the answers to all the problems that mankind has ever known. I hope Americans will read and study the Bible.

            – Ronald Reagan

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Verily, scruple on in humiliation!

            If that’s all you’ve got @DTMoR … not a word showing any correlative support for any religious precedent of any stripe to the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Amendments, on down.

            Thanks for exhausting yourself.

            You prove my points for me, over and over.

            But the truth has a way of perpetuating itself.

            No mater what you say, no matter how many quotes you muster from the dead, you cannot seem to find ONE LINE of law in the Constitution (on down, including the Bill of Rights, the Amendments, and so on) that is correlative to any Christian Bible.

            And it took you so many words to say what the First Amendment dispatches so tersely:

            “… no law respecting the establishment of religion …”

            Cool or what?

            I’ve got me a research assistant in @DTMoR, doing all my work for me!

            Thank the heavens for that.

            =8^o

            😉

            .

        • DoctorDan118

          You’re not sure that the CHRISTIAN bible is promoting one religion over another???? That may be the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard in my life!!! It is promoting CHRISTIANITY!!!!! (which is a religion!!!!!) Wow, please tell me you have no plans to procreate. I don’t think I could handle another person with that level of ignorance existing out there in the world.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            That’s your opinion. You’re welcome to it.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Opinion is a belief not based on fact.

            He speaks fact.

            You speak opinion.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            whatever floats your boat lol

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            It’s not ignorance — that’s when you don’t know any better.

            He knows better.

            It’s willful self-delusion.

            As if to say,

            “… Hey, I’m in the majority, and the majority is never wrong, so we must be right … and so, the Constitution must either be wrong, or must mean something other than those agaist us say it means …”

            It is rather embarassing to have so much governmental ‘god’ hanging around.

            And I guarantee that the 10 Commandment display Net’n’yahoo referred to have nothing in common with the 10-ish commandmants he was raised on.

            There are 23 or so different Mosaic commandments depending on how many bibles you compile.

            But political blah-blah-blah is free speech, so it has nothing to do with official government propaganda, Constitution wise.

            And the various RFRAs Religious Freedom Restoration Acts have been found to be un-Constitutional — READ the First Amendment, and follow the cases down the toilet.

            But they get voters out to vote, so they will be pushed and pushed.

            And declared un-Constitutional over and over again.
            .

        • KLB999

          So you would be OK with Korans being distributed then?

      • Mr. Avatar

        “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia] -James Madison

        • UmustBKiddinMe

          Well I guess he wasn’t very happy that the Bill of Rights protects freedoms that directly conflict with 7 of the 10 commandments. Oh well.

        • egrosh32

          “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
          ~1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams

        • Shaun Anderson

          That Madison quote according to wikiquote.org was “Attributed to Madison in The Myth of Separation Between Church and State (1989) by David Barton, he has since declared it a misattribution, after Madison scholars reported that this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison”

        • Bolvon72

          Please save yourself future embarrassment by refraining from using anything David Barton published in your comments.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Gosh, and that got the votes out, didn’t it?

          Religious pandering is nothing new.

          Luckily, he knew better than to out that poppycock in the Constitution!
          .

    • Sarah Jones Geer

      We are not a religious country. We’re a secular democratic republic. And atheists aren’t trying to remove your beliefs- we’re just trying to make the government and its arms actually follow the damn law.

      A teacher passing out bibles during class time is a violation of the law.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      I disagree — there is NO fight over or for religious freedom.

      There is NO prohibition on ANYONE practicing their religion ON THEMSELVES.

      The fight is over people practicing their religion ON OTHERS.

      THAT is what is un-Constititional.

      THAT is what some self-engrandized zealots are whining about — that they can’t push their religion on others, especially not through the agency of the government and the regulated marketplace that is free of discrimination.

      Waaaaaaaa …

      TRUE Christians make NO demands on anyone, and practice their religious beliefs only on themselves.
      .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Please tell me where in the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, there is any mention god or religion or this being a religious country.

      The battle for ALL people is to keep SOME people from inserting their own personal god and only their own personal god into the supreme law of the land for everyone else.

      You are not opposed by good atheists alone, but you are opposed by good Christians, good Catholics, good Jews, good Buddhists, good Muslims, good non-aligned believers, good converts, good searchers, and good agnostics alike, as well as being opposed by THE FOUNDERS and their blessed Constitution and Bill of Rights.

      And we will keep fighting you for the freedom and equality of all.

      Every single frickin’ time you all try to foist your personal beliefs and religion on ANYONE, especially through the agency of everyone’s Constitutional government.

      We didn’t start the fire.

      You did.

      We’re trying to put it out.
      .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      No, the FFRF is trying to CLOSE the door — upholding and defending the Constitution.

      The Gideons are trying to OPEN the door to permit THEIR religion to be established by the state — clearly un-Constitutional.

      And you want that door open for ONLY what you think you and the Gideons believe … and then complain when that open door suddenly looks just as open to anyone else as you want it to be for you … and then you complain, as if equality was not fair!

      What a whiner you are.

      An un-Constitutional whiner!
      .

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        logical fallacy

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    ““Few things are as sacred and as fundamental to Oklahomans as the constitutional rights of free speech and the free exercise of religion,” he wrote. “It is a challenging time in our country for those who believe in religious liberty. Our religious freedoms are under constant attack from a variety of groups who seek to undermine our constitutional rights and threaten our founding principles.”

    Oh, please, spare me the hyperbole. There is no constitutional right to pass out bibles at a public school.

    ” including the false categorical assertion that the law prohibits distribution of religious literature in public schools.””

    But that wasn’t the assertion they made. The assertion they made, which is supported by court rulings was: “Courts have uniformly held that the distribution of bibles to students at public schools is prohibited.”

    “Pruitt said that it is not unlawful for religious material to be made available”

    Correct. With that said, “making available” is quite different from “distributing”.

    ““Passing out the scriptures—you certainly can’t be blamed for that,”

    “Blame” is not the issue. A pubic school, serving students of all religions as well as no religion, and funded by taxpayers of all religions as well as no religion, has no business distributing the text of ANY religion to students.

    Is their faith so fragile and their ability to indoctrinate children into their faith so weak, that they must go into public schools and attempt to recruit?

    • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

      Interesting perspective. It sounds exactly like another person that posted here for a while, then removed his posts. It’s as though he created a new profile. Hmmm.

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        Well as you know, it’s hard to tell reasonable, rational people apart.

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          LOL, ok

    • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

      Did you know atheists want their belief/faith in evolution indoctrinated into children? I saw it first-hand. And yet no promise of eternal life. And did you know it has nothing to do with recruiting, but being reborn, to be forgiven, to put trust in Jesus who made this universe? Why even study science and the universe and reject the one who made it? To be made right with one’s parents isn’t any more recruiting than being made right with our creator, and there is nothing wrong with that. You lose nothing, gain everything.

      • Sarah Jones Geer

        Wrong. Evolution is established science, not a belief and certainly not an atheist one. Most Christians accept these facts just fine.

        You CANNOT promote your religion in public schools- it is not some atheist agenda to require the schools to be secular as they are required by law and Constitution to be. You want to teach your kid religion- do it in your home or church or send the kid to private school.

        • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

          Evolution is a Theory. An example of what he is talking about is the Texas Public School district who has changed their textbooks to include ID principles as an elective, or S Carolina’s school district who has instructed their teachers to emphasise Theory. Again I quote Rand Paul: “The First Amendment says keep government out of religion. It doesn’t say keep religion out of government

          • roald

            Do you know what theory in science means or do you conflate it with hypothesis?

            https://carm.org/dictionary-theory

            If Rand Paul said it, it must be wrong.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Yes, I do know what theory and hypothesis is. I personally like Rand Paul’s message, and I liked his father.

          • roald

            Since you know the difference, you the terms properly.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            In what way have I not used them properly. Ex: A theory is based on a hypothesis, which in turn is processed through the method of science. In other words, I have an observation, and test that observation. I then present the results of that test for interpretation. If the interpretation is appreciated by other like scientists who do testing themselves related to the hypothesis, and come up with results similar, than it may be published, and subsequently may be funded. Much of science today is funded by the military but that is off subject. The problem with Theory is as new tools become available, the theory could be expanded on, could be interpreted to mean different things, or could be discounted completely. In regards to science, a main problem is falsification of data to meet a certain criteria in the publishing of the data. Just recently there have been a number of cases that have been brought to the attention of the media where scientists falsified their data and got funding until a whistle blower stepped up to see the data was fabricated. Throughout the history of science we have seen this happen. There is an excellent documentary called “Dark Matters” that show some of the extreme experiments that became Theory only to be falsified, even to the point of extremes in humans and animals. However a Theory like Einstein’s relativity has been the basis for good science. When you look at CERN for example you have about 500 physicists combing over data, and each one of them is interpreting the data in different ways, competing against each other for that funding money. Sometimes that is healthy science, sometimes that is bad science. Ok, have I explained how I have used the terms?

          • roald

            You have explained the terms, yet used them incorrectly.

            ID is no more than a hypothesis. It offers no testable explanations. Evolution is a theory it predicts the observations.

            The beauty of science is that as new evidence is found, the theory is changed or discarded in favor of a better one. This model does not require money and funding. In the real world, people do have to eat and some do falsify data for fame, money, or just to be right. The beauty of science is that when other try to reproduce their work, they fail and the frauds are eventually discovered.

            Scientists interpreting data differently is a part of the process. Over time, the incorrect interpretations are discarded and the truth is uncovered, at least until an observation comes along that the theory does not predict or a more general theory is developed that covers more sets of observations.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I tried to provide a couple of links but for some reason it is pending. That is concerning science related to ID. I’ll try again on a separate comment

          • roald

            Thanks. I’ll keep an eye open, but ask you to forgive me if I miss the comment.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I appreciate that. They are in the ‘pending’ area so I doubt you’ll see them, but you are welcome to look at my page if you want to see them in pending status. Otherwise, it’s not a big deal. It was an explanation of how DNA markers in a simple worm are instructed to build the stomach, the head, the individual body parts that make up the worm through cell division. Since the markers at division have implicit instructions for each part of the body, the argument is that there had to be design involved since it is coded much like computer code that is written into each cell as division happens.

          • roald

            That is hypothesis. What did the authors use to make it a theory? Why would a designer make the stupid decisions that led to so many of the genetic diseases, unused DNA, and strange mechanisms in genes?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            It’s a false assumption to think that there is junk DNA. Look it up. Even Richard Dawkins has mentioned that as new tools have become available and the latest studies show that what was thought was junk DNA turns out to have properties that assist in the development of proteins, and the actual structure itself.

          • roald

            Some, but not all of the junk DNA has a role of which we know.

            Now, answer the rest of my question.

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            98%, that’s quite a bit. What question?

          • roald

            98% is not 100%.

            You could simply look up and see, but I’ll make it easy.

            What did the people who came up with the hypothesis of intelligent design use to make it a theory? Why would a designer make the stupid decisions that led to so many of
            the genetic diseases, unused DNA( you did, sort of, respond to this part), and strange mechanisms in genes?

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Review Stephen Myers on Youtube. You’ll get your answer to your question there. Thanks.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The heck with DNA.

            Why can’t we do what even dogs and cats do?

            God is a tease, eh?

            And THAT’s why we have them as pets.

            :-/
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Sorry couldn’t provide the links, won’t allow me to

          • roald

            Thanks for the effort. Try disguising the link by not including the http part and replacing the . with [dot].

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Good idea

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “… the main problem with science is falsification of data to meet a certain criteria in … publishing …”

            So, really, you only understand OPINION, which is a belief not based on fact, that is, you have no support for what you wrote.

            And you have absolutely NO UNDERSTANDING or mastery of the meaning of theory and hypothesis and scientific process or facts: all are temporary … except evolution has been the longest lived, whereas gravity, light, everything else keeps, er, evolving(!), while evolution itself remains constant or enhanced in every new discovery.

            Worse, for a “Christian” web site, there’s apparently no understanding of FAITH.

            Faith is what you have when you have no REASON to have faith.

            Yet you’re all arguing REASON, not faith.

            Sad.

            Hypocritical.

            And faithless.

            Rename this site “Faithless Christian Opinion”.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            Faith is a matter of deep study. Not blind faith. Evolution is theory, and scientist’s have been in discussion to modify study materials based on new discoveries through new tools. Have you seen any evolutionary change at all in homo-sapiens? Physical differences that have improved adaptivity. Have you ever seen a Polar Bear in the Amazon? Have you ever seen a reptile that lives in the Polar gaps? Would they evolve in another environment and adapt to it over time? I haven’t seen it, maybe you could show me something that supports higher level species that have adapted to a completely new environment. I mean 2500 years seems long enough to see some extension of our body that evolved from a mutation. As I posted, and maybe you didn’t see what I posted I explaned what Theory, and hypothesis is. If you would like to expand on that, feel free. You say opinion, I say interpretation of data.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Yup, your search for REASONS to have faith proves that you have no faith — instead you are searching for REASONS to have faith.

            An oxymorn.

            “Blind” faith, is a bad thing, eh?

            … based on WHAT Jesus-based testimony, Thomas?
            __________

            You have no understanding of evolution if you think that even 6,000 years is significant in human terms.

            Native Americans have been here at least ~20,000 years.

            Humans, millions.

            And, considering human mastery of environment and death, I can’t see any pressure to evolve.

            And considering humans severe religious bigotry and mastery of warfare, I can’t see tolerance of any evolution beyond the status quo.

            They burn witches, rather than honor differences.

            Sort of like saying homosexuals are deviant, not evolutionary experiments, worthy of honor and support.

            See what I mean?
            __________

            And you can dump that “higher level species” crap — humans are obviously seriously failed, not superior in any way.

            The way we are playing our supposed superiority, the cockroaches will outlive our self destructive determination.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I have heard all this before, and honestly don’t want to have to go through this kind of discussion again. Excuse me from this conversation please.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Right.

            Because you have FAITH.

            Not REASON.

            So stop arguing as if you had REASON.

            You have none.

            Accept your FAITH, and move on.

            I have.
            .

          • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

            I have faith and reason. I accept my faith through study. I’m not sure you feel it necessary to tell me what I should or should not do. This is a comment section and last time I checked, I still have Freedom of Speech.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            (a) Please quote where I told you what you should or should not do.

            (b) You have not separated your failed reasoning from your failed faith in this thread, so you will continue to get argumentative responses as we try to divine(!) your reasoning, er, faith, er, reasoning, er … oh, never mind.

            (c) If the admins of this web site block you, that would be censoring.

            If the government denied your access here, that would be a freedom of speech issue.

            If we criticize you, that is censureing at most.
            .

        • Lynn

          Correction, evolution is not an established science. It is a theory with nothing to back it up. There is no proof to back up evolution. You need to research this again. There is nothing wrong with Bibles being made available, or distributed in schools. How come schools are teaching about Islam and this is OK, but Christianity isn’t. If these parents have no problem with their children having a Bible then whose business is it, and if they do then they can take it away from them. Why are laws only good when it’s convenient for non Christians. States have passed laws against homosexual marriage where the majority of the people have voted, but yet the minority wants it over turned. Is this right? No!

          • roald

            You have no idea what a theory in science means. Here is a link. Also follow the link on that page to hypothesis.

            https://carm.org/dictionary-theory

          • KLB999

            You don’t know any thing about science and your thinking is beyond illogical. Evolution is a FACT and the theory of evolution, i.e. natural selection, is probably the most well-evidenced and supported theory in science. It is a FACT the same way gravity is a fact. The theory part is explaining how it works. Just like there are theories about how gravity works, there are theories about how evolution works. The FACT that there are changes in allele frequencies over time is not in dispute by any legitimate scientist. Since you don’t know what a theory means in science, I’m sure the significance of that fact has gone right over your head.

            Please share with me exactly how Islam is being taught in schools – it isn’t. Talking about the fact that there are Islamic people in the world and how that effects the world is not the same as “teaching” Islam. But, of course you would be OK with the Koran being passed out at schools too, right? Since it’s OK to pass out Christian religious teachings?

            So you think it’s OK that a group be able to oppress a minority because they are in the majority? You must have been in favor of racist laws in the south too that established segregation (I wouldn’t be surprised.) – after all, the majority wanted those laws so they should have been able to have them, right? And in the case of gay marriage, the majority who probably consider themselves Christian should be able to push their religious views on others and make them comply with them. Oh, but that wouldn’t be the case, would it, when Christianity is no longer the majority religion? You would probably change your tune then, wouldn’t you?

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            The contents of the Constitution are apparently foreign to you, @Lynn?

            We don’t vote on other people’s equal rights.

            We are not a majority rules nation.

            I’ll bet you can’t quote the Constitution saying “… some are more equal, some are less equal ..”

            Because it’s not only NOT THERE, but forbiden, prohibited.

            And THAT’S why the recent hateful votes against other’s equal rights are being nullified.

            And Christians are at the forefront of these equal rights for all battles, including gays and trans and children and handicapped and immigrants and single parents … and even self-inflicted inane religious folks like you.

            Please tell me ONE religious practive yooeel prohibites form excercising on yourself.

            Waiting … [ crickets ] …
            .

        • lindywise

          False

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Hang up and drive, @lindwise.

            Respond when you get home to a real computer — or go to the library if you don’t have a full screen, full keyboard, and full time of your own to concentrate on respectful dialog here.
            .

      • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

        Excellent response!

      • roald

        You do realize that the Catholic church recognizes evolution. From the news source you can trust…
        http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/09/19/vatican-official-defends-evolution-against-useless-creationism/

        • lindywise

          That would be awesome if he were Catholic. He’s a gay troll sent here to start trouble…that’s all.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Reference to Catholic support for evolution = gay troll.

            Aw, the heck with the Constitution AND the Bible, shred them all, along with the scientific method, logic, diological discourse, and anything else with which @lindwise is uncomfortable.
            .

          • roald

            Who’s this “he” to whom you are referring? The Pope?

            Rather hide you head in the sand than follow a link and learn something?

            BTW, you treat gay as an epithet. Why is that? Jesus had far more scorn for people with other attributes, hypocrites, for example.

      • OldArkie

        Yes, and the sad thing is we have many religious people, that are very, yet they completely refuse to follow the ‘Real Jesus.’ These go along with the theory of the scientist beliefs in evolution.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Huh?

          What are you trying to say?

          Please be explicit and unambiguous — no inferences.

          Do you mean the “Real Jesus” is anti-theory-of-evolution?
          .

          • OldArkie

            I mean exactly what I said, there’s many who are religious, yet do not worship Jesus in truth, see John 4:23,24; Matthew 7:21-23.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            @OldArkie, why did you bring your “some religious aren’t real” comment here into the discussion — any SPECIFIC attachment you apply to that comment?
            .

          • lindywise

            yes

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            OFF TOPIC:

            And, oh, down the rabbit hole time with @lindywise, along with @GKK, and who else … ready?!?
            __________

            Oh, @lindwise?

            Why do you believe that the “Real Jesus” is anti-theory-of-evolution?

            Do tell.

            References would be nice, not just opinion (“opinion”: a belief not based on facts).

            Thanks — I look forward to your exploration on the subject.
            .

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        Screw the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, eh, @Rich?

        By the way, some of the world’s most celebrated Christians, especially those in authority over orgnized religions, learn, believe in, and teach evolution.

        Regardless, according to you, screw the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, eh, @Rich?
        .

        • lindywise

          That’s a lie.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            When you say merely “… That’s a lie. …”, @lindwise, without

            a) quoting the “lie” you refer to, and

            b) showing why it is a lie (words, words, and more words!), and

            c) perhaps even offering alternatives,

            … you leave us considering your contribution here as dispensable, and as such, a waste of everyone’s time, including yours.
            ________

            It’s as if you were all too brief because

            a) you were texting on a little tiny device, and have only a little tiny little screen and were using your opposable thumbs only, and

            b) you were probably also driving at the time (hurry, hurry, hit [ Reply … ],

            … so we don’t want to encourage more, and risk you bashing into us in the real world by driving through a red light.

            Though that would accelerate getting us to the afterlife you think is so determinatively important without further delay.

            Some have already suggested that ( “… why don’t you move to hell where your buddies live? …” ).

            Ahh … “argument” … such a personally defined and inaccurate thing — no one knows how to do it well and use it to learn something new, to grow from, and thank their argument partner.

            Grow or die, I guess.

            @lindywise, you are going to heaven when you die regardless of whether you are mean and nasty and spit in people’s eye when you argue, or if you re nice, curious, courteous, respectful of both the known and the unknown, and show a genuine, appreciative celebration for all of your god’s children, even the “Catholics”.

            So pick your own poison — nasty or nice?
            .

    • http://www.shockandblog.com/ Jay McHue

      Hyperbole? You mean like FFRF equating the Gideons with child predators?

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        Yes, like that.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        So, @Jay McHue, do you DENY that the Gideons are going after children to indoctrinate them and inculcte them with their bible messages?

        You KNOW thay are going after children.

        Go ahead, deny it …
        .

        • lindywise

          The Gideons are actually pretty standoffish. I met them later in the hospital ministry. They are the least pushy of any Christians I have met. They just offer bibles. Now if you want pushy bud, keep talking to me. I love a good fight just like you. (One of the many sins, the Lord is working out of me.)

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thanks again, @lindwise, for reiterating that the Gideons are requiting children to Christianity.

            In your case, like any offering to children that parents might not want their children to have thrust on them (a religious presentation not only counter to, but damning of the parent’s free and equal choices for themselves and their children).

            Especially by the authority and agency of the government through the local public school where their children are in mandatory attendance.

            Your testimony is a perfectly illustrative example of the FFRF quotes about child predators in the opening story.
            __________

            I’m not sure the Constitution 1st Amendment says:

            “… shall make no pushy laws establishing religion …”

            Since this is a discussion about the Constitution, what say you about the Constitution, the supreme law of the US?
            .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Ooo, maybe the gays can learn to recruit like the Christians!

      😉
      .

      • lindywise

        Finally, the truth. But, you didn’t fool any of us, Peter. Catholic…ha!

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Thank you, @lindywise for acknowledging that the Guidions are requiting under age children — you are a poster child for the FFRF.
          __________

          If you want me to understand your “Catholic” reference, please use more words, or your inference will remain in only your own head.
          .

    • lindywise

      The problem with your argument is that Christianity is the ONLY religion not represented in the public schools. We want the liberty that is ours too. Your argument says, well, noone should distribute literature. With that reasoning, that will get rid of modern science class, Harry Potter, Earth day, LGBT, teaching communism, socialism, new age, and all religious philosophies that are already embedded in the public school system. Your argument is pointless. Noone tried to recruit me by offering me a bible. And since I was raised in an atheistic household, had I not received that bible, I would be hell bound today. Thank you Gideons.

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        “The problem with your argument is that Christianity is the ONLY religion not represented in the public schools.”

        What other religious texts are being handed out by schools to students?

        “Your argument says, well, noone should distribute literature.”

        I made no such argument. My argument was that the schools should not be a part of distribution of religious texts – Christian or otherwise – to students.

        “And since I was raised in an atheistic household, had I not received that bible, I would be hell bound today. Thank you Gideons.”

        To suggest that the only way you would have had of obtaining a Bible is through the Gideons, is simply without merit. Bibles are readily available, including in school libraries.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        Thank you — you are a poster child for the FFRF!
        .

  • Carol Cantell Moorby

    How about distributing pornography, homosexual and religious material ……That is being allowed. I’d satan is uplifted then why not the Lord? Equal rights… No one seems to complain as loudly as liberal secular humanistic atheists. Check out the evil text books being used to indoctrinate our children and destroy our country! These books are the ones that should be removed. Good for Scott Pruitt! Pray for his protection and thank the Lord for his support. AMERICA is turning around….PTL!

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      “Check out the evil text books being used to indoctrinate our children and destroy our country!”

      Such as?

      • Ambulance Chaser

        Yeah, seriously.

      • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

        .
        Almost ALL books in public schools nationwide are approved by TEXAS school boards first — so these books MUST be evil!

        =8^o

        .

      • lindywise

        Heather has two mommies.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          “Heather has Two Mommies” is a TEXT book?

          Used in class, to sell religion?

          It’s not FACT?

          You do know that Heather DOES have two mommies, don’t you?
          __________

          Anyway, @lindywise, please expand on why you think the book “Heather Has Two Mommies”

          — is evil,

          — is used to indoctrinate our children

          — is used to destroy our country

          … the same country where Heather and her two mommies are equal citizens, by the way.
          .

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      Perhaps YOUR religion self-identifies those things as satan, and YOU call liberal secular humnistic atheists as evil.

      But they do not self-identify as such.

      Can you not differentiate between your beliefs and the Constitution, where satan and evil are not even mentioned?
      .

      • lindywise

        If you were a Catholic, (which you aren’t,) YOUR religion self -identifies those things as satan. The Catholic Church (the one you have to believe in to go to heaven…that Catholic Church,) calls liberal secular humanistic atheists evil. Since you don’t agree, you aren’t Catholic. And our leader is a muslim.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Liberal secular humanistic atheist = Muslim.

          Another line from the fantasy dictionary of @lindywise.

          Oh Lindy, where do we go from here?

          You do know that the Roman Catholic Pope finally tossed their Inquisition against the Women Religious.

          You do know the bible has no mention of the Catholic Church, nor belief in it as requirement for entry into the bible’s heaven.

          Gees, I wish they handed out Constitutions in your school.
          .

  • http://www.evolutionvsgod.com/ Rich

    They spread their religion, hatred towards the Bible and Christians in order to fight tooth and nail for their own damnation, and then expect us to think they are nice? Freedom from Religion, that no one can even have eternal life but must be damned forever due to the atheist belief that they want to be pushed on our school children?

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      You do realize, I hope, that just because you have chosen to believe that something is true, doesn’t make it definitively true, right?

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      @Rich, please quote where the FFRF is pushing atheism in public schools.

      Get specifics, please.

      Then let’s chat about what you found.
      .

  • Sarah Jones Geer

    This article is grossly misinformed. The FFRF’s issue was that a TEACHER was passing out the bibles. This wasn’t a neutral distribution by the Gideons during free periods or after school. This was a teacher illegally promoting her religion.

    Also, Oklahomans can thank Attorney General Pruitt when Satanic literature is passed out- since he specified private parties can pass out literature as long as all are represented, the Satanic church is already planning their distribution.

  • OldArkie

    Good for the attorney general of Oklahoma, he is standing up for Jesus as well as the rights of its citizens.

    • KLB999

      I didn’t realize that Jesus had citizens. Buffoon.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      @OldArkie:disqus, you do know that Jesus is not only dead, but was not even American, ever, and therefore has no superior rights or consideration over living people who are actually here right now within the jurisdiction of the state, right?

      Jesus: … didn’t speak English … dark skinned homeless vagabond … hung out with guys ( gay much? ) … dined on human flesh and blood ( Satanist much, @DreamTheaterRocks:disqus?!? ) … called for the separation of parents and children … played with kids ( pedophile much? ) …

      You all would probably hate Jesus if he were to walk up to you on the street today.

      You’d probably tell him to get a job, get straight, clean himself up, learn English, keep away from children, oh my.

      You might even call Immigration services to get him thrown out of the country!
      ________

      FURTHER OFF TOPIC:

      The state’s name, Oklahoma, is from the Choctaw words “okla” and “humma,”meaning “red people.”

      The Choctaw Nation website says following the trail of tears, it was a Choctaw Chief who suggested the Oklahoma name during treaty negotiations – and he was referring to the people’s skin color.

      The Christians wiped out the “red skins”, offering a dollar per skin turned in to Washington DC — that is, kill them (first, if you care), then skin them, and turn in the skin for a dollar reward (eventually it required only a scalp or ear).

      Nice Christians.

      Let’s expand that “bible” the Gideons churn out and include a full accounting of Christian culture – let it all hang out in our public schools.

      Burning live people at the stake, anyone?

      Go-o-o-o-o Christian America!

      Luckily, others, Christian or not, have tried to turn things around.

      Christianity is not good thing or a bad thing.

      People are.

      Especially people who think Christianity is a good thing.
      .

      • OldArkie

        I understand you now, you’ve never accept Jesus as your Savior, who died on the cross for your sins, them 3 days later God raised Him from His grave, and now is setting on the right hand of God being our mediator.
        1 Timorhy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
        Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          @OldArkie, this is a Constitutional nation, not a biblical one.

          I can fully understand anyone following the Constitution AND the bible.

          You cannot, apparently, feeling that the bible must have some superior authority over the Constitution.

          Absolutely no one upholding and defending the Constitution is going to hell because of it.

          Many, many folks upholding and defending their bible are going to their own hell because of it (and with 1,000+ DIFFERENT bible versions out there, you get to pick your own hell, sweeeeet!).

          You don’t have to pick a bible OR the Constitution.

          You can be 100% Christian to your own satisfaction acording to any bible you choose AS THE SUPREME LAW OF YOURSELF.

          AND you can be 100% American in following the Constitution AS THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND for everyone.

          I see no colnflict.

          Those who do see a conflict seem to think their bible SHOULD be a tool with which others are whacked, and done by the government in their name.

          That is the challenge.

          Can you accept your bible for yourself, my bible (or whatever) for myself, AND we all accet the Constitution for everyone?
          .

          • OldArkie

            You don’t have to defend yourself, I understanding you, you never put God 1st. You think a Christian should obey man, them obey God 2nd, and you do not understand how people are saved.

            Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Please speak about the Constitution for a moment (the issue at hand) — where is the Constitution in all this for you, @OldArkie?

            Thanks.
            .

          • OldArkie

            God’s Word is much more important than our Constitution,, that is the Holy
            Bible was written by holy men whom God inspired,

            2 Peter 1:19- 21
            19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that
            ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn,
            and the day star arise in your hearts:
            20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private
            interpretation.
            21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men
            of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

            That is the Bible is not the writing of men, it is the Word of God.

            And this Holy bible is for:

            2 Timothy 3:15-17
            15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are
            able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ
            Jesus.
            16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
            doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
            17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good
            works.

            Our Constitution is the word of men, its not the Word of God. Any person
            upon this earth that wants t5o follow God, they must use, “
            All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
            doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That
            the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good.”

            If they do not them they’re refusing to follow God.

            The Word of God is the Lamp for godly men to follow.

            Ps 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

            God is my buckler.

            Ps 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he
            is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

            I do not follow man, I only worship God and His Son my Savior, while trying
            my best to deny self while following Jesus, I do not follow men nor the word of
            men. Men’s word is corrupt, they will lead you through the gates of Hell.

            Romans 3:10-18
            10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
            11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after
            God.
            12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
            there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used
            deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
            14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
            15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
            16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
            17 And the way of peace have they not known:
            18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

            I trust and obey God, not men. Jesus can save you, if only you would trust
            in Him.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            STOP IT, @OldArkie, no need to quote the whole damn (excuse me) thing.

            This is not about whether or not the bible is important to you.

            Or which of the 1,000+ different bibles anyone can argue is referential.

            This is about whether or not the bible, ANY BIBLE, can be an organizing reference BETWEEN us.

            In the US, the “godless, here and now, how do we all just get along” Constitution is the organizing reference between us.

            Through the balance of powers we delegate to our legislature, executive, and judicial branches of we-the-people’s self-governance.

            This ain’t about heaven.

            This is about being good neighbors, walls and all.

            And each of us can use whatever other references we chose for ourselves, references NOT inflicted by the government or anyone else over us and our free choice for ourselves.

            If your bible pleases you, then eat it up.

            Me?

            I’m not only dining on other things, I’m dining on MANY other things.

            But when we sit down together, we can share whatever we want to share without jamming our choices down each other’s throats.

            And remember that the main course we all share …

            … is the Constitution.
            .

          • OldArkie

            You need to, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” Yes, God is 1st, after all He created everything that is. ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
            was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him;
            and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the
            life was the light of men.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Thanks, @OldArkie:disqus, but you are free to decide for yourself what you ‘need’.

            Likewise, I am free to decide for myself what I ‘need’.

            Same especially for our children in public schools — freedom is the message, and public school is the messenger.

            If you have another message, especially a religious message, you know what to do with it.
            .

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    All US
    kids definitely need the copies of the Holy Bible! Being able to read
    and understand the Holy Bible was the purpose of public school
    education! Atheism has nothing worthy to learn about. Christianity has everything worthy to learn about, paint about, and sing about!

    • Paul Hiett

      Well, go to the store and get them a Bible. Public schools are not platforms to evangelize from.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Public schools must not adhere only atheism, either. The public school system in secular nations has gone wrong, being ruled only by the atheists. The government should fund all religious schools, too.

        • Paul Hiett

          In other words, Christianity should be the only supported religion in the country, and it should be official and illegal to think non-Christian thoughts.

          That’s what you want, isn’t it?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Every human being must learn Christianity to be civil. Other religions and philosiphies have holes and are options because Christianity has the incomprable finest of everything. Where does your name come from? Christianity. The Western Civilization therefore the entire world doesn’t have anything worthy apart from Christianity.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Whoops — and down the rabbit hole of racist white supremacist bigotry she goes!
            .

        • KLB999

          It’s funny how stupid people conflate secularism with atheism.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secularism is practically atheism. Christians are not naive; we know what you are.

          • KLB999

            Thanks for proving my point! Secularism means to not take a stance – not saying there is a god, not saying there isn’t. To some Christians, if their version of the world isn’t taught, they think they are being discriminated against.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secularism’s filthy Caesar is immorality. Today’s Sodomic Western culture is the proof. You need Judeo-Christian values to become civilized.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Name ONE Judeo-Christian value … perhaps one that you think civilizes, @GKK.

            Then let’s discuss.
            .

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Nope.

            You don’t know me any better than you know sh!t from Shinola.

            I’m Christian.

            Catholic, to be specific.

            And I ABSOLUTELY do not want the government co-opting my Catholicism or my Christianity.

            Funny how fundamentalist religious conservatives accuse the government of being an inefficient waste of tax dollars … then want that same awful, useless government pushing their religion for them.

            As if!

            You’re in Amuraka now, @GKK, try occasionally actually READING and quoting the supreme law of your land, the Constitution.
            .

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible. Why don’t you even obey your pope? Stop killing the babies and spreading the Sodomy. The Earth is having calamities because of you disobedient Catholics and the Western Sodomites.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            “Your pope”?!?

            I didn’t vote for no pope.

            The highest level Christian in the US at the moment is Barack Obama, and he certainly has more votes than any other Christian in America.

            The subject is religion in public schools.

            Not killing babies, which Saint Augustine said was fine up to 2 weeks AFTER birth– that’s holy Christian history, why not present it in public schools?!?

            Not Sodomy,which is the only sexuality not forbidden in the bible between premarital heterosexuals, hence the world-wide movement to “Take it in the end for Jesus”, because they also enjoy it more because there’s no risk of pregnancy, and, hey, they can still claim they are virgins when they get married.

            The world is safer and more peaceful than ever before.

            It is only information technology that lets us see Christians using black men, women, and children for target practice, where before, we didn’t see entire villages of blacks decimated and burned to the ground here in the US before instantaneous digital recording and broadcast communication.
            .
            Even North Korea is more peaceful than in the past.

            Do you have ties to Korea?

            I do, happily putting my life in Korean car-worker’s hands daily, coming home to rest on a Korean jade massage bed — I love me my Korea and Koreans, live in a community with Koreans, have dependable friendships with Koreans.

            I think you are full of fear and have the wrong impression of everything.

            Get your head out of your bible of catastrophes and get to know the real world and real people a little.

            I’m one.

            Get to know me.

            Pretend Jesus sent you.
            .

          • lindywise

            Psalm 53:1

            To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
            Psa 53:2

            God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
            Psa 53:3

            Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
            Psa 53:4

            Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            Cool quotes, @lindywise, JUST the thing for everyone’s self-governance to entertain impressionable young children against their rights to self-determination, against the Constitution, and against the will of their parents, while the children are in mandatory attendance in the government’s facility.

            “… Calling all children to mandatory attendance in a government facility for indoctrination! …”
            __________

            I especially like the contrast of “eat up my people as they bread” versus the image of Jesus eating bread and saying “it’s ME!”.

            I LOVE bread, especially Italian bread, NYC Italian bread, fresh, crusty, airy crumb, chewy, chewy, chewy good.

            LOOK!

            I’m eating not only god’s people, but Jesus himself!

            Yum!
            .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          So, @GKK, you think the government should fund all religions schools, eh?

          Read the Constitution much?

          It’s the supreme law of the US.

          It forbids government from establishing any religion or religious “stuff”.

          The US government is NOT “atheist”, but is secular, areligious, agnoreligious, by legal, Constitutional requirement.

          But, to tell @DLF that you think that their tax monies should pay for Muslim schools in the US!

          Can you imagine a check box on our IRS income tax payment for

          [ ] I want my income tax payment monies to go to the Church of Hedonism?!?

          Hahahahaha!
          .

  • http://www.youtube.com/DutchLionFrans Dutch Lion Frans

    EXCELLENT STAND by attorney general of Oklahoma. Schools that give in to threats should know that cowards end in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone for ever! Revelation 21:8 Giving in is fuel to continued actions by these handful of unadapted devils’children who want the whole world to adapt to their views and demands. NOT so! The blackdressed clowns who perform their justice-raping circus in our courts have bypassed the will of the majority as layed down in democratic made laws, to enforce the will of ebellious individuals and minorties, corupting our nation and world more than any other force of government. They will end in hell very soon! They are already dressed up for it! The idea someone put that if you put a Bible you also have to allow a Quran is FALSE shitty reasoning! If you allow what is good – Bible- you also have to allow what is evil – Quran? SAYS WHO? THIS IS THE EVIL OF DEMOCRACY EXTENDED TO THE EXTREME, but lets think again: If you give equal rights to darkness as the light… you have to remove the light for darkness can not survive when the light is present! THIS MEANS DARKNESS ALWAYS OVERCOMES IN EQUAL RIGHTS ISSUES, BECAUSE THE WHORES OF THE JEWISH ILLEGAL OWNERS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK ALWAYS ABUSE THIR POWERS TO PROTECT EVIL AND DARKNESS by law enforced by their whores in uniforms. This is how they have ruined our society and nation! To hell with them all! Soon God wil harvest them and thrown them into eternal fire! Matthew 13: 24-50; Revelation 21:8

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      You’re confusing your personal beliefs, @DLF, with the Constitution.

      Perhaps you want to move to Vatican City or anther “religious”-based country where their versions of the thousands of bibles out there, or other ancient “holy” book, hold some kind of sway — Saudi Arabia or Iran, perhaps?

      I don’t even KNOW of a country here “majority rules”, as you seem to think — do tell us if you find one.
      .

      • http://www.youtube.com/DutchLionFrans Dutch Lion Frans

        Why don’t you move to hell where your buddies are? Very soon you’ll be gathered by God’s angels and thrown into eternal fire with all other devil’s seeds – finally justice done! Besides: you do not want to be where we are: with Jesus Christ in heaven! Matth. 13: 24-50; Rev. 21:8

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          Constitution much? “… make no law establishing religion …”.

          Bible much? “… love your neighbor … love your enemy … judge not …”

          Oh, Dutch — not even American.

          Thanks for checking in from over there.

          Let us know when you need us to bail you out of a 3rd Word War, like we did in the previous 2.

          You’re an inspiration to all of us in the US, @dutch_lion_frans:disqus.
          .

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

          .
          @Dutch Lion Frans, you seem to think that US Citizens who follow US law and the US Constitution SHOULD go to hell.

          And this difference between you and ISIS is …?!?
          .

          • http://www.youtube.com/DutchLionFrans Dutch Lion Frans

            Hughe difference: I do not help people to the other world, but leave that up tp God. He decides who will go where – except: He wants us to repent, accept Jesus Christ as savior and God and be born-again and obey Him from love, (not from fear of being punished which was the Old Testament motivator – which it still is in all other religions) and share His love with others.

          • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

            .
            So @Dutch Lion Frans, you asking “… why don’t you move to hell where your buddies are? …” was facetious, then?

            Tell us about the Kingdom of the Netherlands governmental success with religion, and the purity and peacefulness of Dutch Christians — you know, Anne Frank, the red light district, the holocaust of aboriginals under Dutch Christian colonialism.

            It might help us in the US to hear how it works in other countries where there is no Constitutional separation of church and state, er, kingdom.
            .

  • lindywise

    Gideon gave me my first bible in school in 1971. I was not a christian –but now I am. Thank you Gideon, for helping me meet Jesus Christ of Nazareth–the best thing that has EVER happened in my life.

    • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

      .
      All Constitutional issues aside …

      So, @lindywise, you got a Gideon bible in school 1971, and it helped convert you to Christianity … from whatever you were .

      Please, tell us more.

      a) In what way do you believe you may participate differently, or not, as a social citizen, comparing the way you were and the way the bible influenced you?

      b) Do you believe there are any life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness changes in you because of the bible compared to how you imagined your life would be before you received the bible?

      c) Do you have any experience of non-bible ways of “the best thing that has EVER happened in my life”?

      d) Tell us how your family and friends took your presumably childhood enrapture with a Gideon bible.

      e) Do you think you would have been as receptive if you received the bible on the street, or received it later in life you had completed after mandatory public school?

      Now, back to the Constitution and governmental intrusion on the parent-child relationship:

      d) Was it a public school? Was it during the school day session? Were there non-Christians or anyone who made themselves known that they were of a different religion, or no religion, compared to the Gideon bible?

      e) You seem to be confirming that the effect, at least, is successful predatory recruitment of children. Do you think that’s the government’s place to push Gideon bibles in public schools? What about other, non-bible presentations, do you think any religious presentation, pro-religious presentation, non-religious presentation, even anti-religious presentation should have equal access to being presented to children in public schools?

      f) Do you feel here is incompatibility between your honoring the bible and your honoring the Constitution?

      Thanks in advance for your considered responses.

      (PS — I’m happy that you feel well served in your preferences for yourself by your experience of the Christianity you have witnessed.)
      .

      • lindywise

        First, I did not become a Christian because I received a
        Gideon bible in school. It was only one
        of many seeds.

        A)
        Before I came to Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I was
        an immoral drunkard/pot head that could not maintain any semblance of normality and a complete useless drain and waste product on society.

        B)
        I am completely delivered (not one-day-at-a-time
        AA delivered) Jesus Christ set me free delivered from all of the above. I have life and that more abundantly. I am now a productive member of society. I went back to college in my forties and I have a 3.92 grade point average. I had a
        4.0 but an atheist communistic professor gave me a “B” for being a Christian, I earned an “A” but he despised me above all things.

        C)
        No. In Jesus Christ of Nazareth I live, move, and have my being. There is NOTHING better than Him. Why do you think Christians are willing to give their life up rather than renounce the best thing that has ever happened
        to them?

        D)
        I had a very liberal mother. She let me find my own way religiously. There was no big deal made out of the
        presence of the bible either way. My mother was an atheist (but officially and loathingly Catholic.)

        E)
        So, I went to church on my own. I would walk to church and my father would give me a quarter for the collection plate…there, I went to Vacation Bible School and I won a bible for being the best student, (much to the chagrin of the
        parents who had been dragging their kids to church for ever—and who were not interested at all! ) So, that was bible number two. I didn’t become a Christian until I was thirty-two years old. I won the bible when I was 11 or 12? But I got turned on to heavy metal, pot, and alcohol at age 12, and from there rock and roll became my god. So, the answer is yes, I would have been receptive since I sought out church on my own.

        D)
        Yes, it was public school in day session. The bibles were left out and we were free to take one. I had Jehovah’s witnesses in my class as well as Catholics. It was a
        problem for the JWs. But everything was a problem for the JWs and we were used to it.
        No pledge of allegiance, no moment of silence etc.

        F)
        Sure, as long as I as a parent have a permission slip and the right to have my child excused.
        We weren’t given a presentation by the Gideons.
        They just left bibles.
        Children are already subject to all the different religious presentationsand philosophys. There is the teaching of evolution—which is a religion. There is all sorts of New Age
        presentations—meditation, guided imagery etc. There is satanic presentation—Harry Potter, and there is Gaia Worship—earth worship, and now teaching Islam in public school. Children are being indoctrinated into homosexuality and sexuality outside of marriage in general—and that too is a god (dess) and religion.
        The only religion under attack right now is Christianity. Why? Because the devil knows that the minute you
        meet Jesus Christ of Nazareth—and make no mistake about it, He is alive, and watching every move you make—you will know that He is the best thing that can
        EVER happen to YOU!
        Jesus says, I am the way the truth and the life and no man cometh unto the Father but by me. John 14:6
        If you are not a born again Christian, you belong to satan. Period the end. No wiggle room. Do you think I should have the right to say that?

        Yes, the constitution guaranteesthe right of free speech. You don’t have free speech without the bible. And the
        only intolerance is towards Christians’ rights to free speech. I think that everyone should have the freedom to say what they want because that is the way that Jesus ordained it. He is a gentleman, and He does not impose Himself on anyone. He gives us free will. I also believe that parents of any religion should have the right to homeschool their children and not send them to public school at all.
        But, all of the religious movements,(See F,) want to take away Christians rights to say that we believe that their lifestyle is a sin (missing the mark of the plan that God has intended for us–and yes, Christians sin…it is in human DNA to have a sin nature, that was part of the fall in the garden. We are all born spiritually dead and if you do not get born again, you stay spiritually dead. Genesis chapters 3-5. However, we have a God that shed His blood for us and died our death for us. He died for you too, friend. John 3:16,) and that they need to repent (change their mind) and know Jesus Christ as their savior. However, we don’t do that at the edge of a sword, or by force, or by shunning, or by keeping people out of a job, or giving them lousy grades because we don’t like their religion/politics etc. (and yes, I know there are lousy people who use the name of the Lord, but a true Christian will respect your rights and your person.)
        Actually, it has got to the point that we don’t even have to open our mouth and say anything but “I am a Christian”, and you will lose your job, recommendations, grades, housing preferences, etc.

        This is a bad analogy, but, it’s like I have this pot of gold and I am surrounded by people who are bankrupt.
        And I am saying, please, won’t you let me give you some gold? And that person says no thank you…well, that
        is their right. But leave my gold alone. He is the pearl of great price and I love Him so, and love is stronger than death. Matthew 13:44-46 says it better.
        In closing however, this discussion is moot because Jesus is God, He has a book, it is already written, and how it all end is already writtne. He doesn’t really care what either of us think or say. He is God, and we are not, and His will Will be done.
        I pray you find yourself on the winning side, because I have read the last page of the book and Jesus wins…because He is God. I really do pray you come to know Him. There is NOTHING better than knowing Jesus. He is the pearl of great price and my pot of gold. Isaiah 55:1. Thanks for making me think about all this.

        • http://www.peterblaise.com/ peterblaise

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          Thanks, @disqus_alM2it4Jf6:disqus, for your thoughtful exploration — I will respond one-ish topic at a time (not that my posts will be any briefer!).
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          @lindywise wrote “… I did not become a Christian because I received a Gideon bible in school. It was only one of many seeds …”

          Peter Blaise responds: As if an apple tree could say “… I did not become an apple tree because of an apple seed …” !

          I do not think you understand the meaning of ‘seed’ versus other influences on growth and direction, such as water and sunlight and nutrition.

          The seed is determinant of the specific outcome.

          Other stimulus is not determinant of the specific outcome.

          In other words, no matter how much sun and water and nutrition you spray on a … bean sprout, it will not become an apple tree.

          Your use of the word ‘seed’ fully reveals the intention and practice of some Christians who are pushing everyone’s State to establish their own Christian religion by having everyone’s State distribute their own Christian Bibles to under-age, minor children-citizens in mandatory attendance at everyone’s State schools:

          — they are planting their own Christian seeds,

          — trying to establish their own Christian religion,

          — through the agency of the everyone’s State.

          Thanks for identifying that.
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          Let’s look at some ‘givens’ in the US:

          For 200+ years, here in the United States, according to our founding documents, our Constitution ( supreme law of our land ), our Amendments, our subsequent laws, our regulations, our rules, and our case decisions cascading on down from there:

          1 — we-the-people’s self-governance is prohibited from planting religious seeds, er … prohibited from establishing religion of any sort by any means, and

          2 — we-the-people, including under-age minor children-citizens, as individuals are entitled to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of our own choosing, with equal protection and support of our self-governance, NOT through some people’s own Christian-based state-planted ‘seed’ before we are even of legal age.

          I keep reading people’s posts here, and I see that those who WANT their own Christian Bibles distributed to under-age minor children-citizens in mandatory attendance in our State schools do not understand the following viewpoints:

          — we and the founders DO SEE the power of ‘seeds’ planted in the young, and we and the founders want to make sure that our State is NOT part of ‘planting’ religious ‘seeds’ of any sort by any means.
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          So, now the argument boils down to what kind of ‘seeds’ IF ANY do we think we-the-people’s self-governance should ‘plant’ in our under-age minor children-citizens via our State public schools.

          I say … ready?

          … well, I say, plant no seed that isn’t in our United States founding documents, our Constitution (supreme law of our land ), our Amendments, our subsequent laws, our regulations, our rules, and our case decisions cascading on down from there.

          Any other ‘seed’ planting is none of we-the-people’s self-governance’s legal business, is un-Constitutional establishment of at least religion, and is destructive of the self-determined life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of individual citizens (and their legally responsible parents!).

          // barking off
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          End of debate?

          Abso-frickin-lutely not.

          On my side, I say:

          —– help our under-age minor children citizens teach themselves * about everyone’s inalienable rights to one’s own life, one’s own liberty, and pursuit of one’s own happiness, all as defined by one’s own self;

          —– and help our under-age minor children-citizens teach themselves about support from we-the-people’s self-governance, with equal consideration and equal protection and due process for all.

          Others (here?) might pounce on the mentions of ‘God’ and ‘Creator’ in our founding documents, and try to pull the kind of snit that the Gideons thrust as agents of our State on State-collected kids.

          But, luckily, presciently, our Declaration of Independence talks about NATURE’S God, not the Bible’s ‘God’, and THEIR creator (as in “… all … are endowed by their creator with … unalienable rights …”), not the Bible’s ‘creator’.

          So, on our State property, our State should only offer to help under-age minor citizen-children learn about our State stuff.

          Off our State property, anyone can help anyone learn about any other stuff.
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          * See the writings of Neil Postman through Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt for the evolution of the meaning and practice of ‘education’.

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