Judge Seeks $135,000 Fine Against Christian Bakers for Declining to Make Cake for ‘Gay Wedding’

KleinGRESHAM, Ore. — An administrative judge in Oregon has recommended that a Christian couple pay $135,000 in damages to two lesbians for declining to make a cake for their same-sex “wedding” due to their religious convictions.

As previously reported, Aaron and Melissa Klein operate Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Gresham, which is now operated from the couple’s home after the Kleins’ shut their doors due to harassment. In January 2013, Aaron was approached by a mother and her daughter as the two were interested in a cake for the daughter’s upcoming wedding—to her lesbian partner.

“My first question was what’s the wedding date,” Klein told television station KTW in Portland. “My next question was [the] bride and groom’s name. … The girl giggled a little bit and said, ‘It’s two brides.’”

He then informed the women that the bakery does not make cakes for homosexual events.

“I apologized for wasting their time and said that, unfortunately, we do not do same-sex marriages,” Klein explained.

The women left Sweet Cakes upset about the incident, and later, one of them filed a complaint with the state. The Oregon attorney general’s office soon launched an investigation against the Klein’s as the state’s non-discrimination laws prevent public accommodations from being denied to any individual on the basis of “race, color, religion, sex [or] sexual orientation.”

But Klein states that he regularly serves homosexuals. He believes that there is a difference between serving homosexuals in general and having to personally facilitate same-sex ceremonies, which is an act of participation.

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“I have customers come in almost on a weekly basis that are homosexual,” he said. “They can buy my stuff. I sell stuff. I talk with them. That’s fine. … This was not the first time we’ve served these girls.”

“We were being asked to participate in something that we could not participate in,” Klein’s wife, Melissa, noted.

Some Christians believe that being a part of a same-sex event violates the biblical command in 1 Timothy 5:22 not to be “partakers in other men’s sins,” as well as the command in Ephesians 5:7, “Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”

In February, a judge with the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries ruled that the Christian bakers are guilty of discrimination for declining to make the cake, thus moving the matter into the sentencing phase. The Kleins have expressed concern for months that if they were forced to pay a fine for declining the cake over their Christian convictions, the penalty would “definitely” bankrupt the family. Speculations were that the fine could range from $75,000 to $150,000.

On Friday, Alan McCullough, an administrative judge with the bureau, recommended a fine of $135,000, with one of the women receiving $75,000 and the other $60,000. Prosecutors had sought damages of $75,000 each.

According to the Daily Signal, the two women, who have been identified as Rachel Cryer and Laurel Bowman, submitted individual lists of just under 100 aspects of suffering in order to receive the damages. They included “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “distrust of men,” “distrust of former friends,” “excessive sleep,” “discomfort,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “loss of pride,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

But the Kleins told the court that they too had suffered because of the attacks that they received over their desire to live out their Christian faith in the workplace. They stated that they endured “mafia tactics” as their car was vandalized and broken into on two occasions, their vendors were harassed by homosexual advocates resulting in some businesses breaking ties with them, and they received threatening emails wishing rape, death and Hell upon the family. As a result, they had to close their business and move it into their private home.

Anna Harmon, one of the attorney representing the Kleins states that now the $135,000 fine will harm the family even more.

“Their business is gone,” she told reporters. “They don’t have business assets, so when we talk about [the fine], it’s personal. It means that’s money they would have used to feed their children that they can’t use anymore.”

“It’s a shocking result and it shows the state’s relentless campaign to punish Oregonians who live and work according to their faith,” Harmon said.

“This amount will financially ruin us,” Aaron Klein states. “Our government was put in place to protect the people, not to punish people because of their faith.”

The penalty is not final and must be approved by the state labor commissioner before being officially ordered against the couple.


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  • R.W. Deese

    How do I get a hold of them? We need to donate to them. This judge should be fined for a hate crime!

    • jack

      R.W Deese- They had a Gofund me page but it is now gone. Franklin Graham is now taking donations with Samaritans purse

      • Mary Waterton

        Why is it gone?

        • vega388

          Yeah good question!!! But you would not have to go any farther than a Gay lobbyist to get your answer.

          • MisterPine

            What is a “gay lobbyist”?

          • vega388

            Yeah you Liberals are clueless about everything!!!

          • MisterPine

            Going to answer the question or just fire off snarky remarks?

          • vega388

            My answer was in that video you watched but you did not connect with it. Hitler once said to control a people and a nation you take away rights a little at a time and people will not see these rights being taken away until its to late to change it back!!! Via those cake makers rights to refuse service to anyone!!!!!

          • MisterPine

            The cake makers were fundie bigots. They should have lost everything.

          • Soule Joleen

            Hopefully, you lose everything for being what you hate. I’ve read your posts and you are a serious hypocrite.

          • MisterPine

            That is stupid. There is nothing hypocritical about what I said. The only thing I hate is hate.

          • vega388

            Are you sure????? Maybe just maybe it goes against all their beliefs!!! So in which case your the bigot.

          • MisterPine

            Maybe they shouldn’t be bakers if they are going to discriminate against people over what they imagine they are doing in the privacy of their bedrooms.

        • Reality check

          It is gone because it reached the set goal of $150,000 in just a few hours.

          • rob159

            If the gofundme account was closed due to goal reached then why are they saying they will be bankrupt. Do they need another 150 grand to pay the lawyers?

          • Richard Magnuson

            Remember, their comments were immediately after the ruling and the fund was started later. But don’t lose sight of the tyranny that is going on here. The state government has effectively ruled that the state is god and you will follow this pagan god or be punished. These two grifters singled out this small bakery on purpose because this small business was vulnerable due to no assets. They were referred to other bakeries but declined. This bakery had done business with homosexuals in the past but drew the line on this one request of being part of a mock wedding by two homosexual activists. The owners live their faith which is more courageous than extorting someone. The owners believed by doing the cake they would be enabling sin which is prohibited in the Bible. Various New Testament books speak to this like the books of Corinthians, etc.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Well-stated. Thank you.

          • Bill

            the law is the law and mist be follow no matter what you think

          • Soule Joleen

            Obedience is doing whatever you’re told, no matter if it’s right or not. Morality is doing what’s right, regardless of what you’re told. There is no such thing as ‘justice’ and law cannot serve mankind because it is flawed in its attempt to put all men in one box and call it ‘the right way’.

          • Bill

            law is what makes a society orderly and safe. morality is fickle and ultimately worthless

          • Reality check

            I found out after I said that it was closed because they had committed a “heinous crime” according to GoFundMe. Discrimination is not violence, although they were threatened with violence themselves.

          • Reality check

            They had to close their business, they have a lot of legal bills, do you want them to die for it or what?

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Wonderful news. People are so fed up with these shennanigans.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Wrong, it only reached $108,000 when the gaystapo started throwing such a hissy fit that they closed it down. Franklin Graham will not bow at the altar of their god of perversion. Send your gifts on to Samaritan’s Purse to help this faithful family of seven pay their outrageous legal bills they had to pay the gays for their so-called emotional distress. What a bunch of ridiculous PC gone awry.

      • http://racetrackdegenerate.com/ Fred the Red

        And how much is that grifter Franklin Graham skimming off the top of that? He skims over a million a year off Samaritans purse.

        • Richard Magnuson

          Maybe you should do some research and I am sure your integrity will then bring you back with an apology. Franklin is paid a salary and is documented in federal tax forms – as if you didn’t know.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Of course, he knew. These jerks stop at nothing…no lie is too big or slander too dishonorable for them to indulge in.

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Franklin Graham takes nothing. You should be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting such a thing.

        • Sherry

          He is not skimming. A workman is worthy of his hire. The way they decide what a minister makes is simple. They determine what a person holding the same position in a corporation gets and give them that but if you look into it further you will see that ministers get way less that what their position is offering to other executives…I know this from inside knowledge.

        • Sherry

          also just letting you know. There is a board of directors who determine income not himself.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        God bless Franklin Graham.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Oh? What crime did he commit?

    • Sherry

      It is not a hate crime to uphold rights for goods and services and to prevent obstruction of that in any way…although I do believe this couple has learned an expensive lesson and that the donations are a good way to help relieve the pain of its sting.

    • Bill

      why don’t you just burn a big pile of your money. it’s faster and you’ll be warm

  • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

    One day that Judge will face God and be Judged. What these Judges are doing to Christians who are taking a stand for what they believe in is wrong. That judge is wrong.

    • Sherry

      Yes, the judge will face God and when asked why did he gave a fine to the Christians He will say well you honor, I am a judge in America and my oath was to uphold the laws of the land. I may or may not personally agree with all the laws but I worked according to my oath to uphold the established laws of that day and time.
      America has established that no one may be turned down to receive goods and services in any place by certain standards of distribution. Your children agreed to those standards before they opened their business. They broke the law by turning this couple down to receive goods. If they would have tried to change the law or at least changed the definition of their company before hand which they have the right to do, then I would not have fined them.
      We must be careful not to judge so swiftly those who must work in accordance with the established laws of the land. I do believe that a certain disciple was slapped when he spoke to a high priest incorrectly and that disciple was humble enough to take the chastisement and also apologized! May we all be like Paul

      • smbelow

        Here’s your same logic but a different scenario:

        The man/woman will face God and when asked why he/she accepted the mark of the beast, he will reply: I was a citizen and given a law to accept this mark so that I could buy and sell things.

        Hmmm….I wonder how that will turn out?!

        • Ambulance Chaser

          So what do you propose? Judges stop enforcing the laws as written if they disagree with the Bible?

          • smbelow

            Laws are supposed to be based on morals and ethics, not emotive behaviors. Therefore, I would expect that the law makers would determine what is right and wrong based on an objective moral framework. Hmm…where can we get a better understanding of morals? It seems our founders knew where to look for answers.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            What laws are “supposed to be based on” is irrelevant. Whether you LIKE the law is irrelevant. Whether you support it, agree with it, or believe it never should have been enacted is irrelevant.

            The only relevant issue is that there is a law, and the judge is called upon to determine whether a defendant violated it. So I’ll ask you again: Do you believe the judge should have ignored the law, and if so, why?

          • smbelow

            “What laws are “supposed to be based on” is irrelevant….”

            Thus says the “Ambulance Chaser.”
            With that position you must be a successful lawyer (if you are one); having no moral standards to adhere to.

            “the judge”
            Where do we get the word “judge?” I’m only asking because it is a nice way to establish first causes.

            “The only relevant issue…”

            To be honest, this is a difficult question to answer. Why? Because amoral behaviors should never have been instituted as a protective class; indicating that the dynamics of society is swinging to the principles we find in the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah.

            Not knowing the specific laws that were created, I am not sure if the Judge, in question, properly ruled or not–being aware that there are questionable decisions that have been ruled in the past by other, so called, judges. Don’t ask me which ones, I’m sure you’re aware of some bad judgments.

            In the end, I can’t give an opinion on what the judge should or shouldn’t have done (secular / Christian worldview issue). However, if I were in that position, I would search high and low for any way to avoid compromising my Christian worldview. If there were no way, It would be time to leave the bench and find a way to fight such improper laws.

          • Deb Bunno

            A judge in Colo. refused to charge a baker who refused to make an anti-gay cake. What about their rights? I don’t agree with them either, but if you want to be fair and unbiased, explain that.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            The only relevant issue is whether one obeys God’s laws or man’s laws. Hmmm. Wonder what true Christians will choose.

          • Bill

            if you disobey the law then you will be punished and don’t whine about when you are

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            for me I will choose…………………………………………………………………………….
            God’s Law. Man can kill my body but not my soul. I trust my God not man.

          • Deb Bunno

            I propose judges don’t force people to create something they don’t sell. Simple.

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Exactly.

      • Deb Bunno

        You can’t be forced to create something you don’t sell. I am pro-gay marriage – and pro-common sense.

        • Bill

          they sell wedding cakes don’t they?

      • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

        Many will try to Justify what they in their lives. But God is the only Judge that really matters. May feel Justified in their sins as well .

      • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

        I would rather obey God than your way of thinking.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        And that law that has just been recently established after thousands of years of sodomy being against the law is now supposed to somehow be considered above God’s laws? And all these people, whether cake bakers, pharmacists, doctors, nurses, etc., who chose their careers based on thinking they were in a good, innocent profession, now all are supposed to have to give up everything to accommodate people who have defiantly thrown God’s laws overboard to push their own ungodly agendas down the throat of God-fearing people. This is a heinous law and, God willing, it will soon be overturned and one happy day righteous laws will once again prevail in this land. It may not be till Christ’s return, but by the looks of things, that will not be long.

    • Bill

      blah blah blah. empty threats from a squealing pig

      • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

        Oink oink

        • Bill

          at least you admit it

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Oink?

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            TWEAT TWEAT !

          • Bill

            piss off

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            oooo big boy has to have a tantrom.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            At least I do not have to stoop so ((((LOW)))) and call people PIGS.

          • Bill

            that’s all you christans are. squealing pigs. you have no respect for the law or your fellow humans, you are lower than excrement

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I respect God’s law. One day you will also face the one you rejected.

          • Bill

            the only laws that matter are society’s. you either follow them or face the consequences

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            God’s consequences are eternal. Mans is not.

          • Bill

            it doesn’t matter.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            It will on that day.

          • Bill

            2000 years and nothing.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Wait the time is running out . God is giving Humanity enough time to Repent. His LOVE is that strong .

          • Bill

            love so strong that he will torture anyone who doesn’t praise him . your god sounds very insecure

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            Yawn!!!!!

          • Soule Joleen

            You sound intolerant to anything that isn’t gay.

          • Bill

            I’m intolerant of bigots.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            You can tell God how you thought the ones who believed in Him are Squealing pigs.

          • Bill

            god is fairytale told by the insane . and I don’t fear fairytales

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            When you meet God you can ell Him that you say He is a Fairytale .

          • Bill

            I intend to.

          • LadyFreeBird<God'sNotDead

            I pity you on that day .

  • FoJC_Forever

    The claims of these people about their “suffering” are false. These women have the problems they listed anyway, they were not caused or exasperated by this small bakery refusing to bake their sinful “wedding” cake. I’m certain the bakery industry did not collapse in that town due to this family closing their storefront. One more prime example of the heinous vindictiveness of the homosexual agenda and community.

    Are the threats “protesters” have made being ignored by law enforcement? The people who are “protesting” should be charged.

    • MisterPine

      What exactly is a “sinful “wedding” cake””? It gets annoying having to type all these extra quotation marks because some of you won’t accept that in many states gay people may now get married legally.

      “Heinous vindictiveness of the homosexual agenda,” cry me a river. Maybe try treating them like human beings and stop treating them like freaks of nature and we’d all get along a lot better. As Jesus would want. There is no homosexual agenda, they just want to live their lives like everyone else, free of the bigotry of the likes of Christians like yourself.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        Man’s laws will NEVER trump God’s laws.

        • Bill

          they do I’m afraid. always have and always will

        • MisterPine

          They are exactly the same thing. Who do you think wrote the Bible?

      • FoJC_Forever

        Quotation marks are commonly used to put a phrase or word in a specific context. This context is that while some call it a wedding and a marriage, it is, in fact, neither. God defines marriage, and homosexuals cannot marry. Weddings are ceremonies used to confirm a marriage, so homosexuals cannot have a legitimate wedding either.

        I’m not crying at all.

        You have no idea how Jesus would treat a homosexual, because you don’t know Him. A homosexual would feel more uncomfortable in the Presence of Jesus while trying to act like his or her sin is acceptable than they feel in the presence of someone who knows Jesus.

        I am not a bigot. Not affirming someone’s sin as acceptable before God does not make a person a bigot. People like you love using words like bigot to harass those who won’t agree with your lies. Sad really, because you don’t see just how big a bigot you actually are.

        • MisterPine

          “This context is that while some call it a wedding and a marriage, it is, in fact, neither.”

          I think the law would disagree with you. Are you going to go along with it like everyone else, or are you going to continue to shine a spotlight on your own intolerance by being the one group to oppose it? And when that happens, are you going to be surprised when certain groups of Christians continue to be called out for bigotry and hatred?

          “God defines marriage, and homosexuals cannot marry.”

          What about atheists? Are they also living sham marriages?

          Jesus said not to judge. Which is precisely what you are doing.

          • FoJC_Forever

            The reference Jesus made was not to put people to death for sinning, as the Law given through Moses dictated. Jesus was starting a new Covenant. His reference to not judging did not mean calling a sin a sin. Those who embrace the Lie have been using this passage of Scripture according to the Devil’s interpretation, not according to the Holy Spirit’s revealed meaning.

            I am not advocating homosexuals be put to death for their perversion. They need to know that Jesus will forgive and cleanse them of their sin(s), but to do so they must recognize homosexuality as sinful.

            The Light that shines is the Light of Truth, Jesus Christ. I realize you reject this Light, but your labels are incorrect and misapplied simply to falsely portray yourself and those you support as victims.

          • MisterPine

            There is precisely nothing a homosexual can do to change. The simple fact is their poles of attraction are reversed and they can only form loving, lasting romantic bonds with people of the same gender. We know from science and mental health professionals that this is true, so it is wrong to call it a lie. More to the point, we know it also based on what homosexuals TELL us. This isn’t an agenda. There’s no reason for them to lie en masse.

            What would you have homosexuals do – live loveless lives simply for the purpose of appeasing the demands of a man-made religion? You would deny them the sexual pleasures you allow yourselves? Have them live lonely and depressing existences?

            Jesus may be able to do a lot for people, but one thing He can’t do is turn a homosexual into a heterosexual.

            So again, it seems you are forcing homosexuals into an impossible position.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You type lies, plain and simple.

            When you stand before God in Judgement, your lies will be revisited upon you, all of them.

            Repent now. Forsake Satan’s lies about homosexuality and all Sin, then embrace the Truth. Jesus Christ will save you, set you free, then give you and lead you into Eternal Life.

          • MisterPine

            You are telling me that my scientific truth is a lie. There is no hope for you, you are too far into the bowels of fundamentalist illness. Save yourself instead, reject your cruel and inhumane zealotry and hate.

  • Erika N Raf Santiago

    How hard is It to find a “gay friendly” cake shop! the lesbian’s lives have not been altered nearly as much as the couple they have sued! They still have their jobs, and can simply find someone else to cater their wedding! I don’t understand WHY is it so hard for homosexuals to understand that Christians do not hate them,, they just simply do not agree or condone the lifestyle they choose to be in, and can not be supportive participants in the gay lifestyle which includes gay marriages! they are simply living out their lives according to their religious beliefs! its not a personal hate! same with Muslims they as well share in the same as Christians and do not cater to such events for the same reasons and again its not personal, it is how they truly believe. how hard is it to respect someone’s religious beliefs, turn the other cheek and find another place for a cake! Get over it! not everyone is going to 100% agree on this just like with abortion! you can close down all the Christian wedding shops you want, put them in jail etc… it is not going to convert them on the issue into their definition of “tolerance” and “acceptance”. I would have told the judge “I don’t have the money, you might as well put me in jail, and your ruling in no way converts me on the root issue here and that is I do not agree, support, condone, same sex marriage. My God and my religion and lifestyle do not permit me so, same as the Jewish and Muslim religions because we share the very same moral fundamental belief that God made marriage for one man and one woman!. you can not force tolerance with law suits—do what you want to me, my belief will not change!”

    • sahana64

      It is better than playing the lottery for these losers, and the judicial system is playing right in the hands of the sodomites.

      • Sherry

        If you have love Christian, how can you call some one a looser? Sodomites are no worse than you or I as a sinner by the way and Jesus has called us all to love. Governments are not “Christian” they are Governors who govern people to create safety and to regulate the rights of people who want to receive those goods and service fairly.

        Gods kingdom is not of this world. A Government who goes by Gods rules will prosper and those who dont will not and will eventually destroy its own self by working and making decisions with out wisdom. Israel has seen that over and over but we as Gods givers of love are not to treat people with out love. We are to serve all sinners. God judges; we serve. That is our position. Let Him judge and let Christians serve, and show all people love and respect.

        We should not be out to get people. We should be out to teach, to serve and to love let God do his job, not us, before He decides to purge us all…

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Out to get people because you politely tell them your religious convictions do not allow you to participate in gay weddings? And invite them to purchase their cake from a bakery down the street? Please. Only one side was out to get the other, and I pray it backfires big time and the persecuted family comes out way ahead financially. We already know they are way ahead spiritually.

          • Bill

            that’s still discrimination and illegal. a slap in the face is still a slap in the face even if you smile while doing it

          • Sherry

            Or do as the law says and serve them and change your bakery into a minister and stay in compliance with the law. Christians cant have everything the way they want it in this world. We must live peacefully beside our non christian neighbors not all of the laws will comply with Gods standards so we either choose to break the laws and suffer the consequences shut down the business so they dont have to comply or try to make new laws. We cannot have it the way we want it!

    • Victoria Lynn Lambert

      Totally Agree! You don’t hate the sinner you hate the sin!! You Love the people, you just can’t condone the lifestyle. I have several gay friends and I really love them but they all know how I feel about there lifestyle.

      • carl

        What a crock!

      • Sherry

        I totally agree! Those people need our kindness more than most as they are at the bottom of their degradation. My heart pours out to them as they are in deep emotional pain which is what causes some of them to be deeply angry and we all know that angry people attack!
        that’s why Jesus said to pray for those who spitefully use us. Why because they need release.
        You know what I would love to see? I would love to see this couple get the donations so they don’t have to pay a dime and to see them apologize publicly to the gay couple and then make them the prettiest cake ever and put that on the NEWS! See what that does to America!

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Apologize for what? For speaking God’s truth to them? For being harassed, sued, and tormented by them and their gaystapo friends? No, you do not apologize when you have not been wrong. That is called hypocrisy. They will stand their ground, and God will bless their faith and faithfulness to His Word.

          • Sherry

            For breaking the law and for denying them of their rights. People can speak the truth but they cannot break laws. They can try to change laws but not break them.
            … but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 1 Cor. 13:1

          • Beltshazzar

            Deluded and trying to justify your delusion by picking and choosing verses . John the Baptist broke the law and so did most of the early Christians as Christianity was illegal. Like it is soon to be again.

            I would leave Oregon tonight if I were them and Tell the court, come get me. If I have to spend time in jail so be it. Far better than spending eternity in Hell.

          • Sherry

            God doesn’t say dont serve gays he actually says the opposite serve all sinners. But he does say go preach to the world. Also as I said in other posts, All they had to do was redefine their business and they would be in legal right. God will judge the unloving as well so be careful how you respond to His child and those He loves.

          • Beltshazzar

            Again you are misrepresenting the Word. That is why my posts are terse. Jesus said that if you tell someone the truth and they refuse to hear it don’t associate with them and kick the dust off your feet when you leave. I could take you many places around the world where my blood and sweat has been spent helping those in need and spreading the good news of the Gospel, which begins with repentance and trust. Not because I am anything special, but because that is my calling. There is a time and place for every season, a time for love and a time for rebuke. While your intentions are good your discernment is lacking. We are certainly commanded to love but not at the expense of our convictions.

          • Sherry

            We must obey the law if we are to have a business if you want to go by your convictions do something else. Jesus said dont associate with brothers who wont stop doing sin as Christians and the kick the dust off the feet was for those who didnt invite the disciples into their town or house.

            I am not in opposition to the Bibles ways of handling rejection of Jesus word. They were witnessing to the house of Israel his own people. Jesus sees Israel a bit differently than Gentiles but either way. Those gays didn’t reject Jesus or his word they were declined goods and services and you cant pick one kind of sinner from others to “not serve.” We are to serve all men…

            “The meek will inherent the earth.

            Meekness:
            “Meekness has been contrasted with humility as referring to behavior towards others, where humbleness refers to an attitude towards oneself[4] – meekness meaning restraining one’s own power,[5] so as to allow room for others.[6]

            I guess if we want to not serve people and cause tension when we have the ability to cause things to be better for other people then we can but id rather find a better way to do what they did and stay under the laws of the land as well…

          • Richard Allen

            Hey Sherry! How do you conclude that this Christian couple didn’t redifine their business? And what about their rights to respectfully decline? Do you believed it is OK for the state or the gay couple to destroy this family over a cake?

          • Tspoon

            Don’t twist the facts; they are being punished for violating the law as determined by an administrative court. Respectful declination for work on the basis of something other than race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation is fine. Declination of work, respectful or not, on the basis of one of those protected classes is a violation of the law. Consequences are consequences.

          • Sherry

            They did not go out of their way to break laws and they were respectful to those in charge.

          • Nina Michelle

            As long as you act respectful, you can discriminate against anyone?

          • William Cowherd

            God’s truth? Your’e a fool. There’s no way to discern the truth from the bible. It’s a sick twisted evil book written by racist bronze age Jews that didn’t know shit!

        • Resa Forseth Wagner-Pittman

          Are you on crack? There is no way in hell this couple should ever cave to two people who are using the law to destroy their family. The threats and vandalism and condemnation this family has suffered at the hands of two self-important jerks is beyond the pale. In no way ever would I make those witches a cake….ever.

          • Sherry

            hmmm after reading this post I’m sure you wouldn’t but hopefully grace will melt your heart…

          • Beltshazzar

            Beyond that this court is breaking the law or what used to be the law..It is called the Constitution of the United States. You should read it and the entirety of the Bible before you speak. Do you remember John the baptist? I guess you don’t believe Paul either when he lovingly wrote Romans 1:18-32 or Peter when he penned 2Peter 3:3>14…just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He
            writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
            matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,
            which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

          • Sherry

            When a person tells some one something that will deter their life style it is not the same as forcing them into it. Since I dont like what your doing you must go to another bakery although i signed a legal document that states that i will abide with the lawn of commerce. Paul never did anything to force anything on any one by stopping or causing anything to happen to them. If you dont understand what i am saying right now then I cant put in any other way. I am sorry.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Beyond that this court is breaking the law”

            How so?

          • Resa Forseth Wagner-Pittman

            It has nothing to do with grace….at all.

            This has to do with imposing a punishment that in no way fits any crime, without due process. Forcing someone to choose whether or not they will compromise their own belief system or take away their way to make a living, is unacceptable.

            Furthermore, this is something that can happen to anyone.

            It is not right that this is being imposed upon them without any way for them to present their side of the story and have it fairly judged or even a fair hearing of the legitimacy of the litigant’s claims of personal damage. They just get to say so and their will is done without question. How in the hell is that even remotely acceptable???

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            your right …its not acceptable.

          • Sherry

            People need to go by the laws of the land. It is a command in the Bible. If they want to do something different they have the right to but when they sign a court agreement that they will comply with the laws set up for running a business they must comply or suffer consequences.

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “Forcing someone to choose whether or not they will compromise their own belief system or take away their way to make a living, is unacceptable.”

            They are not “forced”. Opening a business is a choice. What products the business offers is a choice. There is no “forcing”. The couple continue to operate a bakery out of their home. Their ability to “make a living” has not been taken away.

            “It is not right that this is being imposed upon them without any way for them to present their side of the story and have it fairly judged or even a fair hearing”

            There have been numerous hearings on this issue.

        • Monika Grabowska

          What is it they need to apologize for? Following their religion?

          • Tspoon

            Please be quiet. 1 Timothy 2:12

        • Niyi John

          It is a pity that the state will use so much fuss to make people accept that same sex marriage is acceptable.
          I guess part of the problem we have as Christians is that while some of us are denouncing homosexual marriage as a sin, others are joining them in marriage.
          We need to stand by the word of God. In the last days people will have itching hears listening to those who preach what they want to hear.

          • Tspoon

            Yeah, how dare the state use its enforcement powers to make sure we all respect equal protection under the law. The 18th and 19th centuries must have been AWESOME for everyone that wasn’t a land-owning, white male.

        • Tspoon

          Better be careful. As a woman trying to teach a man, you’re in direct violation of God’s law. 1 Timothy 2:12. Or is that particular verse up for more contextual analysis than others?

      • LeHund

        they don’t think christian hate them, they hate the Christians because we refuse go along completly with them. until we say all is ok, they will continue to hate all Christians.

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Right on.

        • Sherry

          Not all gays hate Christians but in general it is getting worse because of ill treatment by Christians. We must speak the truth in LOVE the Bible says. If we have not love we are a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. This means ineffective.
          Not all gays are mean and trying to find trouble and to say that they are is simply not right.

          • wayne8734

            Sherry,since you bring up the Bible,Cor. 6:9-10 “or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?Do not be deceived,neither fornicators,nor the covetous,nor adulterers,nor effminates,nor homos,nor thieves,nor idolaters,nor the revilers,nor swindlers shall inherit the kingdom of God.Lev. 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female,it is an abomination.Lev 20:13 if there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman,both of them have committed a detestable act.And I do not hate gays,I have gay friends!

          • Sherry

            I do know and it says it in Revelations. That is something to discuss with them in love not a fearful fright. God loves all men and died for them and desires that no man shall perish. Its the sin that he hates and He will destroy it and make a new earth. Anyone that does those things and wont repent will take part in that annihilation by default. God hates sin but loves the sinner. Our job is not to be mean to sinners or single sinners out but He does hate sin. So yes I know. But I do not agree that we are the ones that need to do the judging on earth. That’s Gods job. We have different jobs and yet some confuse our job with Gods and try to take over. Which is why there is so much aggression that comes across these posts.

          • Beltshazzar

            Again you twist the facts. Where in this story were these people being mean or hateful. Other accounts from different sources stated they even directed them to another quality baker that would help them. Stop with your foolishness already.

          • Sherry

            no one said those particular people were mean and hateful I was referring to the many comments I have read on these posts. And watching the personal insults and cutting remarks which are unnecessary when discussing ideas and opinions.
            These people simply broke the law.
            I really dont see the need for aggression and its sad to see it on so many Christians sites. I hope at least some people will reconsider some things from these posts today. That was the purpose of what time I put into this. That some one will see and want to help make things better. I hope you have a good night…

          • Bambo

            it is better to break the law of men where the law of God, the creator and the Judge of the living and the dead stands. then others who break the law of God will then have their own sentences to face sooner or latter .

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            They may not have been “mean or hateful”, but they broke the law, are paying for their crime and based on the evidence of their words here, plenty of “mean or hateful” people support their actions – and worse. A perfect example of what christers really mean when they speak about being “loving”, which anyone considering their allegedly loving god thingies should consider.

          • Sherry

            I taught my daughter how to help them and they truly open up with the methods. Telling people about themselves doesn’t work. Recently my daughter finally broke through to a gay woman that had been in a relationship for a long time. I taught her how to be around her and she finally broke through it is a long process of being there when she needed a shoulder to cry on and learning what to say at the right times. This woman is now considering church and started talking about God. She is in my daughters salon. Love won her over and trust.
            It my old job I had the same experience with a mean gay man. He was mean to every one and after two years this man will still run to me and hug me in front of every one and people just stare. I mention going to the church he attended when he was a child and he was actually opened to it. I have many stories of this but people wont win them by fighting them or by humiliation.

          • Nina Michelle

            You seriously believe gay people do not have God in their life? I absolutely have God in mine.

          • Charles Spencer

            The bible says, My Spirit shall not always strive with man. The Holy Spirit is given to convict and convince us of our sins.He will convince you homosexuality is wrong then you must choose if you will obey him or reject him? We choose to follow Jesus or satan. To love God enough to live right or to love our sin more than we love God.

          • Naomi Sapan

            indeed!!! you are created by Him and belongs to Him but you cannot avoid one important thing that God hate sin not the sinners because He is holy and nothing unholy according Him not according us, can come to His presence. God the one who set the rule of holiness not you. and if you are a gay/lesbian testify that you have God and force Him to agree to your sinful life (in sight of God even you don’t see like that) you lie to yourself. if you keep commit to your sinful life you will apart from Him that is God said (if you believe the Bible is His word). It’s a ironical and pitiful to see how you, Americans, shout louder to the physically persecution to christianity in other part of the world yet you silences for the persecution upon christianity in your country, a belief persecution that force them to agree to your sinful life on behalf human right. if you keep living in your sinful way you don’t have God in your life. that is the truth! Sorry for my broken english I am not a native speaker . I hope you get my point.

          • Bambo

            u cannot be a child of God and live opposite what the Father says through the bible. dts a rebelious and disobedient child.

          • Charles Spencer

            You have the god of your imagination. The God of the bible loves all people and proved it by coming to earth to save us from our sins, which God hates and showed that by going to the cross to pay for our sins. Acts 3:19; Repent ye therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out from the presence of the Lord. Romans 6:23; for the wages of sin are death but the gift of God is eternal life through dJesus Christ our Lord. Romans 3:23; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are born with a sin nature, but when Jesus comes into our life we are born again into the family of God. We now have a new nature a Divine nature. John said; If you are born of God you cannot sin. Meaning you cannot continue to live in the old sinful nature, because you are a new creation. Homosexuality is sin according to Romans chapter one and Revelations chapter twenty one. You must choose whic life you will follow God’s or the devil’s to determine the destination you will spend eternity.

          • Nina Michelle

            Well it appears that no one wants to claim their own imperfections which I am sure you all have done more than once yet you claim your your space in heaven and deny me mine. (Which by the way, is not yours to deny me) I also see people clinging to the old testament and ignoring who Jesus really was and why Jesus was here. So, in the spirit of absolute perfection I ask, how many of you are wearing any cotton and polyester blended clothing? If you find that you own any thing that is in your possession you must throw it away, repent, go shopping for only clothing that is made from one type of fiber, (I recommend cotton) and go and sin no more. Blessings, and happy shopping. Be well.

          • Charles Spencer

            Nina, Our Lord was not silent on the subject of sex. Matthew5:27-28; He condemned adultery. God created us to be in a heterosexual relationship because it requires both male and female to have children that are to develope proper relationships in a family environment.
            Is recovery possible?
            In Christianity today statistics ranged from 30 to 90 percent in groups that minister to ex-homosexuals, though statistics are difficult for understandable reasons.
            Recovery can mean different things. It may mean being in a process of change. It may mean abstinence from sexual practice. Undoubtedly recovery may mean lapses along the way, which is true of any other sin as well.
            Paul observed that recovery is possible, for he wrote to the Corinthians who had been homosexuals that such were some of you. 1 Corithians 6:11. Lifestyles can be changed because of washing our minds with the word of God and allowing him to sanctify and justify us. It is all about God’s grace, the only thing that makes one person different from another. To allow this world to keep you out of heaven is like Esau trading his birthright for a bowl of beans. Bad choice

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            Why not ask your shifty-eyed daughter to share the link to this page with her victim, call it truth in advertising. and see if they are stupid or delusional enough to still “consider church.”

          • Monika Grabowska

            It is God’s job to do the judging but it is our job to follow his word

          • Sherry

            Yes, and what i read does not include breaking laws on purpose.
            This post can go on for ever…So Im stepping out…

          • Monika Grabowska

            Step out! bye! The law should never involve something that violates someone’s religion

          • http://shryve.webs.com/ William

            So if a terrorist Muslim or Christian feels that their God wants them to blow something up, that is a act of Religious Freedom??

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            An act of religion perhaps, but I think KILLING people and destroying personal property steps over a line.

            As my govt. teacher told me in school. We all have right, except the right to infringe upon another’s right. For example: You have the right to walk down the sidewalk swinging your arms around. But you do not have the right to walk down the sidewalk swinging your arms around, and in the process, knocking down other people. You would be infringing upon their right not to be knocked down.

            Blowing up a building and/or killing people would be an infringement upon their right to be safe and their property not to be destroyed.

            Now…before you say it 😛 I already see the response “well, what about the couples right to be homosexual and what about their right to have their wedding catered”. I see your point…however, their rights have not been infringed.

            For starters, nobody is saying they can’t be together. In fact, the owners even stated that they would have been more than happy to serve the lesbian couple and have before in the past. They simply don’t want to participate in what they believe is sinful. Their rights not to be a part of what they believe is sinful is being infringed. Their right to believe that gay marriage is sinful is being infringed. NOBODY is saying the gay couple can’t be married or can’t even get a cake…but people ARE saying that the owner’s of this particular business have to accept homosexuality as okay. There is absolutely no compromise btw freedoms here.

            Furthermore, there are other bakeries that would have accommodated this couple. Why does EVERY bakery have to? Whatever bakeries choose not to are already losing business by not, and that is of their own decision. I don’t understand the long list of grievances that the gay couple listed in their lawsuit. Seriously? Grow up and just find another bakery. Get online and do some searching….ask your friends to look around. Somebody who can bake well is bound to be around that can assist you. I can’t honestly believe that it devastated them as much as they claim it did. No…rather it comes off to me that they just saw a really great opportunity to make some easy money off somebody merely holding to their moral and religious believes.

            Personally, I never understood it all anyways. I got a gal I work with who is bisexual. She well understands my perspective on the subject and gets very angry that I don’t agree with her. Yet, she would proclaim to be pro-choice. Personally, I find it very hypocritical to claim your pro-choice (people having the right to believe in whatever they want to)…and then get mad and angry when somebody exercises that right but it doesn’t follow along with their choice.

            Basically, ya claim to want tolerance but in the process and in the same sentence many times, fail to be tolerant yourself. Rather hypocritical.

          • Tspoon

            Except that they did violate the couple’s right not to be discriminated against on the basis of sexual orientation. I doubt that you even read the Oregon law, let alone applied any rigorous analysis. Your high government teacher’s credibility aside, we don’t live in a strictly libertarian society; there are other rules in play.

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            That isn’t true. They said they would serve them like any other customer is regards to selling them stuff. They however refused to “partake” in what is a sinful act. It clearly states in the bible not to partake in another man’s sin. We have the same philosophy in modern society. For example, one person robs a bank. The other person is the getaway driver. The driver is just as guilty because he was a PART of it.

            They didn’t want to cater the event. If the girls had simply just come in, bought a cake, and left, they would have been served like anybody else.

            Or does a Christians right not to partake in sin not matter? Sorry to tell you this but GODS law trumps man’s law. I don’t care what the law is, if it goes against the bible I won’t abide by it. Throw me in jail, chop my head off, sue me for millions I will NOT go against God just because man says I have to.

            I will follow man’s law provided it does no contradict the bible, as by following and abiding by man’s law, I honour God. But God’s law is above man’s law always, not the other way around. I don’t care what else is in play. Nothing else matter. You don’t go against God for other men. This life is short, eternal is forever. I’d rather be in jail for 80 years than live in damnation and fire for eternity.

          • Tspoon

            It is true. Every word of what I said. Your justification of *violating* the law is your perception of your religious mandates. To that end, you can use that as justification to martyr yourself all you want. In other words, you can break all the laws you want if you are prepared for the consequences. People do it all the time. In this case, our law says one thing and your interpretation of your God’s law says another. Guess which one trumps in real life?

            Here is the most problematic issue for those with such religious zealotry: you say “God’s law is above man’s law always, not the other way around. I don’t care what else is in play. Nothing else matter.”

            Just in this thread I’ve heard 10 different interpretations and contextual analyses of “God’s Law.” So, without a dogmatic hierarchy of rule enforcers, who says what “God’s Law” even is? For instance, I had a female Sunday school teacher when I was a kid. 1 Timothy 2:12 strictly prohibits that. The clergy and administration of the Christian school all knew about her (and others) and were a party to it. Are they all burning in hell because they “partook” in this clear, unambiguous violation of “God’s Law”? Who decides? (other than God, of course, since we have to enforce our laws down here just the same).

          • LeHund

            That is taken out of context. you need to understand the history first. when Paul was teaching and said women are not to teach men or speak in church is was not a command from God to everyone woman forever and ever. It was to that church at the moment in time. The women would sit and listen and when they did not understand something they would ask their husband who was sitting across the room, and it got loud and interrupted the speaker. Paul wanted the women to stay quiet until they got home, then they could ask their husbands what was said and get a better understanding. you don’t have to believe me, study it for your self and you will see I am telling the truth. The Bible is not meant to be read and taken at face value without having a clear understanding of the history of the Church and the customs of the people at the time. Take the word “Believe” most people say it means to have a clear knowledge and understanding, but back in the times of the Bible, the word “Believer” meant to go and do. If I say I Believe in Jesus, I just don’t “know” that he is who he says he is, but I follow all of his commands and do what is asked of me, other wises, I do not believe in Him.

          • Tspoon

            You wouldn’t hear me disagree that all of the components of the Bible are historical in both meaning and context. Perhaps the Church should turn it’s proselytizing to those among it’s members who can’t, or won’t, understand that. I’d bet it’s strength in numbers and moral authority would swell. Until then, the mass vitriol and judgments based on 2000 year old customs that manifests in real injury makes me turn a blind eye to what might otherwise be a compelling truth.

          • vega388

            Yeah Brandon they need to take this to a higher court and get us the people to take part in all of this.
            Hey I like the way you think!!!

          • vega388

            So what of the discrimination against the cake makers rights and beliefs? That doesnt count in our socialized country now right?

          • Tspoon

            I know I’ve won when only rhetorical buzz words are left. For your homework, why don’t you consider which system of economy Jesus Christ would have preferred: socialism or capitalism. Just consider it.

          • vega388

            A typical Liberal response!! Ponder this Einstein, so what you are saying is it has gotten to the point now that if I ask you to give me head and you refuse I can scream discrimination and take you to court and win????

          • Tspoon

            A typical kneejerk, uninformed response. Is you demanding I fellate you a public accommodation? You give conservatives a bad name with your ability to think; you give Christians an even worse one with your crass public comments. Congrats.

          • vega388

            Listen bonehead, you and your kind have been screwing up my god given country for years now and I am f ing tired of it!!!! You don’t have the brain power nor the mindset to think on your own!!! You have been taught to think by college professors who have been reading Government revised books on how to think.
            I have been around a long time kid and nothing in books can tell us old timers what in thee hell has been going down over the years in this country. You can keep using these big words to intimidate people but you picked on the wrong old man here that has seen to much of peoples BS like yours!!!! Grow up and fly right!!!!

          • Tspoon

            Ok. Then how about this: from one free thinking, non party-line towing American to another, cheers to you and yours. You may not respect me or anything I think or stand for, but that’s ok. That’s why I love this country. It just doesn’t matter one damn bit and we both keep living.

          • vega388

            Yes it does matter!!!!!!!!! I went to Vietnam to secure your right to do and think as you feel so don’t put no quilt respect crap on me!!! You think the way you do because you and millions of other people like you have no respect for God and our constitution, THE REAL CONSTITUTION NOT THIS BACKWARDS BS WE HAVE NOW.

          • Tspoon

            Blah blah blah. I tried conciliation and respecting, at least, a difference of opinion recognizing we have a generational gap. You elect to remain an obstinate prick bent on achieving God knows what end. No more cheers, just a piss off. Keep living your life in the past while I forge a better one for the future.

          • vega388

            Your a dumbass!!! Thats right, I am a prick that knows far better than you about whats hitting the fan!!!! You are just a big ignorant fool that is very easily swayed to think everything is ok to do in this country without consequences following!!! You know I could care less about what you think or do, but problem is what you people do affects my wife and I, kids and my grand kids!!!! Case in point the cake makers normal ways and life all screwed up because of rights you think these gays have. As far as you forging a happy normal life?? Better prepare yourself for a big disappointment there fool as your evil ways are about to come home to roost.

          • Tspoon

            Evil ways? Holy shit dude; you’re insane. *backs away slowly*

          • vega388

            Hey I have already won this battle!!!! The only one that should be locked up in a padded room is you and millions more like you!!! On to the next liberal mental retard.

          • vega388

            And by the way hotshot I am not republicrat or democan!! I am an American.

          • Patti

            I already see the response “well, what about the couples right to be homosexual …

            No one who’s on the pro-gay side would say that. There is no right to be homosexual; nor is there a right not to be homosexual. Homosexual is simply what some people are. Even if the person with a homosexual orientation fights it and marries someone of the opposite sex, it does not change who that person is biologically attracted to. That is, he or she is still a homosexual, though I guess you could say a non-practicing one in this case. And from reports of many who’ve tried this, also a very miserable one that has anything but a stable marriage. But you don’t have to take my word for it. You can read up on it at any of the major medical, psychiatric and psychological organization sites.

            For starters, nobody is saying they can’t be together.

            A lot of Christian fundamentalists are saying just that. There used to be anti-sodomy laws (enforced only against gay couples, not against heterosexual couples doing the same thing) that fundamentalists were aghast at being overturned. And there are still fundamentalist pushing their gay family members into totally useless and harmful reparative therapy.

            NOBODY is saying the gay couple can’t be married

            Excuse me? Have you looked at the news lately?

            I don’t understand the long list of grievances that the gay couple listed in their lawsuit.

            It’s called “lawyers.” Once they’re involved, you have grievances you never even thought of. I actually agree with you that the couple should have found a more eager baker and left that one to their prejudices. I believe in picking and choosing my battles – everything is not worth a major upset. Being refused ordinary public accommodations is one thing, like public officials refusing to issue marriage licenses, or like the “Christian?” doctor who refused to examine a newborn baby because the parents were lesbian. This should not be allowed. But I do see a difference with being refused service at a particular event that the server has religious objections to, especially when you have an entire industry (the wedding industry) clamoring for your business. Though I’m very supportive of gay people, and dearly love the ones in my life, I do not understand even wanting a disgruntled baker, florist or photographer to have anything to do with your wedding. The baker could spit in the batter and the photographer intentionally mess up the pictures. Plus it’s giving the fundamentalists Christians even more to feel persecuted about, so it’s not even a good battle tactic.

          • Steve

            Christians do not go around blowing other people away and anyone who does is not following after the true God of creation.

          • Nina Michelle

            Religion and Government should never be mixed in the first place.

          • vega388

            Yep you are 100% right there Nina.

          • Nina Michelle

            God sent His Son to eliminate the old testament. Jesus’ commandment was to love each other as He has loved us. The day Jesus died He took with him a murderer and a thief. Is that where you draw the line?

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            Actually, if I’m correct, and I believe I am, you are referring to the other two on the cross to each side of him. They didn’t both go with him. Only ONE repented for his sin and was sorry for it. The other scoffed at Jesus. The one that scoffed at him would NOT have gone to heaven. 🙂 it isn’t about the sin. If that was the case we all are fanned to hell, and that isn’t how it works. You have to ask forgiveness for your sins, all of them. You have to MEAN it, which means intending to not do it again. Surely we fail but when you ask for it, you have to really intend to not commit those sins again. Otherwise you don’t mean it, and that isn’t true repentance.

          • Nina Michelle

            Where in the scripture does it way Christ chose one over the other because of behavior? I would also like to know, if someone is battling a human affliction which is easily fall again, or what about the sin of Omission? What about all the things that we have listed in our churches or our minds. Do you get one chance? Will God turn his back on a gambler who has not gambled in 10 years and then slips? Did he only get on ticket for the ride of redemption? What about an Alcoholic? Sin and forgiveness only happens once? That is all we get? I believe, and I hope you will at least read my beliefs as I have entertained yours, that Grace is the present that sits at our bed every morning before we even put our feet to the floor. It sits there and is waiting for us accept it…. all the days of our lives. Otherwise, what would Christians who have transgressed have to live for if forgiveness is one time only. I believe we have no human ability to imagine how big God’s love and forgiveness is.

          • Charles Spencer

            Sherry, The Judging is condemning someone. John the Baptist told Herod,” That woman is not lawful for you.” Herod had his head delivered to his wife in a charger. Who was the hater John the Batist or Herod. John tried to deliver him from sin. Yes, he judged Herod, Who do you think judged righteously John or Herod

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            Your loving horned god thingie is going to have people tortured in his presence forever. It is insane to regard an entity that allegedly promises to do such as “loving”. Modern humans are much better than these god thingies.

          • http://shryve.webs.com/ William

            So the Bible really does not say that Lesbianism is a Sin……

          • Nina Michelle

            It says “homos” in the bible? That word didn’t exist until must later, ya know that right? I am a lesbian and a Christian and I love all of you for that is what Jesus told me to do. Be well

          • Eric Mangle

            Just wanted to inform you, Nina, that the Bible does use the word “Homosexual.” Look up 1 Timothy 1:10.

          • Nina Michelle

            Eric, you of course know that God did not sit down and write this best seller, correct? They are stories (or books if you will) written by men and women sometimes over 100s of years. Then rewritten again in the common language of wherever. Each time it is rewritten it gets less pure and has more chance of people to leave their own bias and thoughts. As long as we are clear that God would probably smile and shake His head at what mere mortals have done to the original texts from Christ’s disciples. Just because a word shows up in a modern day bible means nothing to me. The good news is He knows that we are all worthy of His love or He wouldn’t have sent His Son to give us only one law, “Love each other as I have loved you.” That makes me very happy.

          • Eric Mangle

            I’m not going to allow this to go on forever and possibly turn into an argument. You obviously have a very incorrect and ignorant uunderstanding of God’s written Word. Btw, I’m not reading that passage from a Modern Bible, as you call it. I’m reading it directly from a Hebrew and Greek Bible. In other words, the original language.

          • Nina Michelle

            I am not arguing. God didn’t write the bible. I am impressed that you can read both Greek and Hebrew! That is such a gift, you must have worked very hard to learn both of those languages. Be at peace. He has room for us all. <3

          • Eric Mangle

            So, you don’t believe that all of Scripture was Inspired by God? I’m sorry for you.

          • Nina Michelle

            You are changing the wording. ” Inspired” doesn’t mean “was written by” I am a published writer. Some of my writing has been inspired by the love of God, some have been inspired by my mother (long since passed), some inspired by my children. That doesn’t mean God wrote my poem, my dead mother didn’t

            write my essays on the veil between life and after life, and my children most certainly did not write the essays I have done on parenting. You see the difference, yes? I don’t need your sorrow for my beliefs. I send you blessings and clarity in my prayers for you tonight Eric. God be with you.

          • Eric Mangle

            No. You are misunderstanding me. Also, your prayers will not do any good, sadly, if you are living a lifestyle contrary to God’s Word. God still loves you, but He does not support or encourage your type of lifestyle.

          • Nina Michelle

            So God does not listen to the prayers of anyone who is going against what they believe to be wrong? God only listens to the perfect living people? Are there any perfect living people? Have you not judged? Have you never divorced? Thought unkind thoughts about your neighbors? Lusted after another, even in your heart or mind? Never ate more than you should? Drink more than you should drink? Wish you had things that you didn’t have? We are all imperfect. We can be quick to anger, quick to hold grudges, divide our families with differences of opinions. God hears everyone because we are all His children, beloved and happy when we demonstrate kindness and love instead of judgement and believe that we are all loved and we demonstrate love instead of trying to alienate one (or more) of His children from discourse (prayer) with Him by telling them He isn’t listening. God is still speaking and God is still listening. 🙂 God is here now, God always will be. God is with me right now encouraging me to be kind even if you may say things that may hurt my feelings. God is with us encouraging us to be better than we are today. God is especially fond of you Eric, as He is of me. We are brothers and sisters in the Lord. “Love each other, as I have loved you.” Let God do the heavy lifting Eric. Stay safe inside the power of love.

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            God does care and he does listen. But you have to be truly sorry for your sins to be saved. You can ask forgiveness, but if you say that prayer with absolutely no intention to correct it, then you are not truly sorry. Words are great but God knows our heart. If the heart doesn’t align with the words spoken, then that’s all it is. Words without meaning.

            He wasn’t saying that God doesn’t listen or care about the imperfect. If that was the case we all would be doomed because no man is perfect. Even those who don’t know God in any respect or even shun God, God cares for. He was saying that if you live in sin, and have no intention nor desire to change that sinful lifestyle, then no matter how much other stuff you pray and do right for you still cannot be saved.

            Would be like one person believing that stealing is okay. That person. Repents for everything but stealing and never once tries to change his thieving ways. This person says “bible isn’t right on everything, cause it can’t be” and thusly says that the commandment not to steal is false. Is this person correct in their thinking? I certainly would have to say this person is very wrong in their thinking.

          • Ferndalelaw

            As the Judge I would reply: “I don’t care what you believe. Believe anything you choose to believe. You are still required to obey the same laws as people who believe differently. If you cannot obey commercial law – do not engage in commercial enterprises. Judgement for Plaintiff.”

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            Your right, that is what the judge would say because America is losing sight. NOT wanting to participate in an event you believe is sinful is NOT discrimination. Forcing one to participate in such events because the govt has decided that we dont have the right to believe it to be sinful IS discrimination. Nobody said they couldn’t get married. Nobody said they couldn’t just buy a cake, any cake. Nobody said they couldn’t go somewhere else and find somebody who doesn’t have a problem being a part of it because they don’t see it as sin.

            Saying “your wrong. The law now says homosexuality is okay and if you don’t accept that as truth you will be punished” is by definition discrimination against that belief. That’s is directly contradictory to the American constitution. However these days we “warp” the constitution to whatever we would like it to be.

            I say the girls grow a set, stop being babies and coming up with silly “grievances” and stupid “problems resulting from it” such as loss of appetite etc and go find another bakery. What I see is two girls seizing an opportunity to make a lot of money off somebody else’s belief system.

          • Brandon Adam Moran

            So you would say that we as imperfect human beings can and should pick and choose what we want to believe in the bible to be the truth? I would think that is far too convenient and runs the risk of us warping it to our liking, not God’s. Sure enough you are right it was written and rewritten many times over the course of many years. But there is no way any of us can know what is right and what is wrong.

            Thusly, one cannot use that as a basis whenever the bible contradicts whatever we would “like” to be. If you can’t believe even one part of the bible to be true, then you are forced to admit that NONE of it is true. It’s an all or nothing thing. Otherwise your just living for you, and not God. I’m sorry to have to say it so bluntly, and I do not mean to be “atracking”, but that is what it is. Either accept the whole bible, or none of it. You can’t pick and choose what you want to believe in and consider yourself a true Christian. That isn’t how it works 🙂

          • Nina Michelle

            Hi Brandon, thank you for speaking with me. I appreciate your tone. I never said that we get to pick and choose. Our lives as Christians is certainly not a vending machine. Eric told me that because he felt as if I am a sinner, God will no longer hear my prayers or answer them. Even if the answer might be “no”. Eric believes that I am cut off by my Creator because he feels that my sins (which throughout my 53 years of life have been many and varied because I am human) but rather Eric is picking and choosing who is worthy of God’s love and attention. It seems or feels to me that others think and choose which sins (as far as Eric inferred) are less than mine, and God has His own vending machine and chooses who is worthy of His attention. There is no such thing as a sin ranking system. Remember, Christ on the cross left with us from Him that horrible wonderful day, the final example of how much we are loved. He took a murderer and a thief with him to glory. Luke, I believe was the only book in which includes the conversation between the two others hanging next to Him. Its a very raw and in your face account of how much suffering Jesus went through and for how long. He even cried out for a second time (I believe) one was in the garden of Gethsemane, when He was so alone and afraid asking His Father to remove His fate (human isn’t it? can you imagine how much human fear, especially because Jesus already knew what He must endure) and once on the cross his humaness once again, slipped out through and showed us how much pain and fear He was feeling inside his earthly body. “Father, why has thou forsaken me?”.

            Now I understand that many Christians tend to ignore the quiet invitations of Jesus. The New Testament includes why Jesus came to direct us into a better and new way to honor our Creator. He did wipe clean so many rituals and sacrifices and dogma that people had, before Jesus came to the world as the embodied Word. He told us He is the way, He is the light, and only through Him will we find our way. He had one commandment, “Love each other as I have loved you.” Which I practice everyday. Sometimes better than others some times I fumble in my humaness.

            I invite you Brandon to think before you call someone a “true Christian”. I am not here to incite hate. I am here to tell you (collectively) that I am commanded to human kind as Christ showed us through horrifying scriptures just how much He loves us. Thank you for your time. Be well.

          • Aura Willow Hazel

            Christ taught love and tolerance. Not the casting of stones. Or is the son of god not as good for you as Leviticus a set of codes of behaviour written by MAN. Leviticus is not the bible , it’s the third book of the Jewish Torah.

          • David Cromie

            I remember, from some years ago, listening to a racist being interviewed, who explained that he had many coloured (!) friends, but would not like his daughter to marry one, or have one move in next door. I have often wondered, since, is if any of his ‘coloured’ friends had heard the interview, and what they might have had to say to him afterwards.

            I suspect you are just like this racist, and would not like any son of yours to be gay, much less come out of the closet publically, or even entertain one as a lodger in your house.

        • backell

          “They hate the Christians because we refuse go along completly with them. until we say all is ok, they will continue to hate all Christians.”

          By, “go along completely with them” you mean, actually let them live their lives they want to? HOW DARE THEY not let YOU have YOUR input in their lives?!?!?! This is AMERICA where good CHRISTIAN AMERICANS are the ONLY AMERICANS and get to to dictate EVERYTHING.

          THAT’S WHAT FREEDOM IS ALL ABOUT!!! YOU HAVING THE LIBERTY TO TELL OTHER PEOPLE WHAT TO DO!!!

          • Nina Michelle

            I am a lesbian and a Christian. I was directed by Christ to love all of you. 🙂

          • Bambo

            surely, u cant be a spirit filled child of God by being a lesbian. u are only a child of God when u accept Christ, and begin to live the way He instructs and not the way u feel is right. 🙂

          • Nina Michelle

            Of course I am, and so are all the other imperfect people who live lives on this earth, and don’t call me shirley…. 🙂

          • Patti

            Christ never said anything about homosexuality.

          • Charles Spencer

            John 1:1; In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word is God. Christ is God and he has said much about sin which homosexuality is included. Your bible is filled with God’s disapproval with this sin. Romans chapter one says God gave people up to this sin. Just like he gave his chosen people up to their hardness of heart because they refused to listen to him. God laid aside his eternal glory to provide us with a Savior. Obedience is better than sacrifice. If we don’t listen to him his sacrifice will do us no good, unless you receive Him

          • Charles Spencer

            Nina, my heart goes out to you because if you are a lesbian you are not a Christian you are deceiving yourself. Paul writes in Romans 1:18-32; that the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. The reason for this wrath is that people have perverted the revelation of God. This perversion substituted the glory of the true God with god’s made in the images of people, birds, animals, and crawling creatures which people themselves had made.
            As a result God passed sentence upon the earth. Three times Paul said that God gave people over to their own lusts and perversions, which include homosexuality and lesbianism. ( Romans 1: 24,26,28 ) For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; For the women exchanged the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:26-27 ) Nina, I know that these words may seem harsh, but God loves you and only desires the best for you. If you will pray and ask him to deliver you from this sin. He will do it.

          • Nina Michelle

            Charles your words to not seem harsh because I know who I am and that God loves all of us. Lets make one thing clear though, you don’t get to decide if God will forsake me. That is God’s job. I am very active in my church and very secure in the knowledge that I am loved more than I can ever know. Btw, it was Leviticus 19:19…. have you gone shopping yet? I hope the second coming doesn’t happen when you are wearing a poly cotton blend. 😉 I love ya Charles, you are very kind in your disagreements with me. Please if you want to pray for me, pray that I pass my finals next week. Don’t pray that I become a different person so God will accept me because He already has. I ask you seriously though, don’t assume you know what God is going to do with me. Its not your job. Nor is it mine to worry if you are wearing poly cotton blends when our Lord returns. Be Blessed. I know you mean well. I will be okay.

          • LeHund

            I just love how people twist words around. If you would actually read what I said, I just want everyone to leave everyone else alone. if you are gay then go be gay, but leave people alone who don’t like your lifestyle. they have no right to shove their life style onto anyone by force. you know damn well those lesbians targeted these Christians just so they could make a quick profit. Gays hate Christians, not the other way around. not every has to agree with and like the gay life style. just as not everyone is going to be a Christian. why can’t everyone just leave everyone alone and stop forcing people to do stuff they are not comfortable with.

          • backell

            Who is twisting words around? You say “just want everyone to leave everyone else alone. if you are gay then go be gay, but leave people alone who don’t like your lifestyle. they have no right to shove their life style onto anyone by force.”

            How is that even a logically consistent sentence? How are they “shoving their lifestyle onto anyone by force?” By ACTUALLY expecting to be treated like anyone else?

            You’re arguing that THEY can’t do it. You’re saying the SHOULDN’T be allowed to get the same kind of service you would unless they agree with YOUR religious beliefs.

            And you see YOUR not being able to DICTATE to them where they CAN and CAN”T shop as THEM forcing something on YOU.

            They aren’t “forcing” their lifestyle. They’re asking for the freedom to live it. And that’s not “hating Christians.” It’s asking you to let them LOVE each other.

            You SAY you want everyone to just live. But your other words say that you don’t. You want everyone to just, so long as YOU don’t have to be exposed to it. YOU however are under no such restriction.

          • Patti

            While I don’t really agree with making such a big deal over a cake that any number of bakeries would have gladly baked, what is your evidence that this bakery was targeted? I’ve read nothing to indicate that. If you’re making this claim without any evidence, then to the reader it does sound like you hate gays. Also the word “lifestyle” tells the gay person that you’re not listening to a word they’ve said when they tell you being gay was never a choice and was something they knew about themselves long before ever having any sexual activity – there was no lifestyle involved. So if you won’t listen or believe anything the gay person says about themselves, plus you make unsubstantiated claims that the bakery was targeted, then how is this not exhibiting hatred towards gay people?

          • Charles Spencer

            I would not say targeted, but I would say they used it to make a bigger issue than it should have been. Too many judges are bought by special interest groups. Justice should be blind to individuals.

          • Neil

            There are a lot of Gays who are also christians. You are really twisted. Most people do not hate Gays. Most people do not hate christians.

          • Charles Spencer

            There were many gay people in the cities of Sodom and Gomorah who were judged by God for their sinful acts. God hates sin and showed it by coming to deliver us from our sins.

          • Patti

            I’ve read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah many times and find no mention of any homosexuals at all, even though that is a common belief. There is a gang bent on violence that seem to threaten Lots visitors with gang rape, but that has nothing to do with being homosexual. Rape is rape, not an expression of sexual attraction. The angels were being targeted because they were outsiders, not because they were so incredibly handsome that the crowd just couldn’t stop themselves. If the angels had been women, then what the crowd was trying to do would still have been wrong – the sin of this mob was that they were bent on violence against the strangers, not that anybody in it was a known homosexual. And the cities had apparently done plenty to anger God before the angels arrival, though the Bible did not enumerate on what that was. But there is no mention or allusion to consensual sexual relations of any kind in that entire story.

          • Charles Spencer

            jude 7; Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Strange flesh is other than what is allowed or natural.
            1Corinthians 6: 9-10; do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterer nor male prostitutes nor offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

      • backell

        You don’t get a vote in their lifestyle. It’s a bakery, not a church.

      • UmustBKiddinMe

        “You don’t hate the sinner you hate the sin!!”

        The “sin” according to the Bible is having sexual relations with someone of the same gender. Were the Kleins asked to do that? Were the couple going to have sexual relations at the wedding?

      • rocket_science

        When will true Christian’s realize it’s not a choice or lifestyle? Do you think homosexuals like being called a few choice words for the heck of it?

    • Sherry

      so… the gays must go around and do research before they go buy a cake? absurd! we are in america and all people have the right to do as they please in their own homes as long as it is not hurting others which is what our laws are suppose to be protecting.
      All people have the right of service in our country. It is set up that way to stop the ability to discriminate and treat people in a way that causes them to not be able to get the things they need for living. It is not good to it is not good to pick Certain sins to discriminate against or we would be continually judging every kind of sin to see weather they qualify to receive goods and services. That makes no since.

      • smbelow

        “their own homes as long as it is not hurting others…”

        Do you see the hypocrisy in your statement?

        “our laws are suppose to be protecting….”

        What is the bases of law? Morality?!

        • Sherry

          hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform. People keep using this term incorrectly almost like a personal cut so I thought id define it before I comment but no there is no contradiction of thought here if you are inferring that a gay who goes out of his home to ask for a cake for use in his personal business would be him hurting others by the knowledge of that other person knowing what he is doing.

          The thing is, if we are smart enough to figure out what a person is doing with the items he purchases that doesn’t qualify as him or her pushing his life style in some ones face or being mean in any way. It is not his fault that you can tell what he is going to do with the item. An item for sale should not be declined to anyone with money to pay for it unless this designated right is reserved and established.

          The bases of law was for protection as it concerns mans use of the earth and treatment of its resources. ALL morals and laws were created by God and established by Him. The adjudication of the law whether by legal institutions or just the average Joe attests to whether it or he is compliance with God or not and thereby establishing the thing as godly or not.

          Being moral and doing moral is of its own a personal thing we do not have the right to assume it upon some one who opposes it unless what is happening is harming something else.

          • smbelow

            “hypocrisy: the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform.”

            Yes! And your position on homosexuality falls in line with the definition. Your stance is to force an amoral practice on the world stage; all the while, pushing those who reject such a practice to keep it in the privacy of their house and in essence recognize it has a normal behavior.

            And if you believe homosexuality is a normal behavior, then, by what moral standards are you basing this premise?

            “…person is doing with the items he purchases…”

            See! Here, you are being deceptive by the way you keep labeling this issue as purchasing a thing or providing some kind of service. This business stated that it held back no services from these individuals; until, they requested an item for an event that crosses moral boundaries.

            “Being moral and doing moral is of its own a personal thing we do not have the right to assume it upon some one…”

            The problem is this IS a moral issue. If the Christian bakers are forced to bake this cake, their moral beliefs are being trampled on. So, the question still becomes: how do we determine what is moral truth and by what boundaries to we adhere to?

          • MisterPine

            No one’s rights are being trampled on. Baking cakes is what they do and that is all that is being requested. Anything beyond that is irrelevant to the baker(s). You cannot refuse service based on what you imagine is going on in the private bedrooms of the people requesting the service.

          • smbelow

            Yeah…the rights of Christians are being trampled because society is redefining what morals are. If it were just baking a cake, then the owners would have baked it. That has already been stated.

            “going on in the private bedroom..”
            Diversion! The topic is participating in a celebration of an immoral union. It’s all about where does society draw the line on immorality? Without objective morals, there are no boundaries.

            “You cannot refuse service…”

            you mean, I can go into any bakery and request a custom cake with whatever I want, and the owners would have to comply? Umm…I don’t think so.

            I fully understand that this world is only going to get worse and that even more reprehensible things will be accepted as normal. After all, Romans 1:27-31 is in full swing.

            Just think of Christians, that stand fast against immorality, as a warning. Because as soon as that warning is not being heard, then, that’s when you need to start worrying.

          • MisterPine

            “Society is redefining what morals are”

            Christians never had those morals in the first place. Your Bible calls for killing people for the most unbelievable things.

            “Immoral union”

            No one recognizes it as immoral except yourself. Certainly the law doesn’t care. Neither does anyone else.

            “you mean, I can go into any bakery and request a custom cake with whatever I want, and the owners would have to comply? Umm…I don’t think so.”

            Last time I checked bakeries baked cakes for weddings. If the state’s rule recognizes gay marriages as legit then you have no legal reason to refuse.

            “I fully understand that this world is only going to get worse and that even more reprehensible things will be accepted as normal. After all, Romans 1:27-31 is in full swing.”

            I don’t follow that book or recognize its authority. I’m sure people have been saying we are in the “end times” for practically forever though. Everyone’s prediction has been wrong so far.

            “Just think of Christians, that stand fast against immorality, as a warning. Because as soon as that warning is not being heard, then, that’s when you need to start worrying.”

            I don’t recognize you as a regular Christian. Most of the Christians I know are not fundamentalists and are not anti-gay and do not believe we are living in the “end times”.

          • smbelow

            “Christians never had those morals in the first place. Your Bible calls for killing people for the most unbelievable things.”

            Nice theological understanding of the Bible. (sarcasm) And way to prove that Christians don’t understand the origins of morality by providing not one substantial argument.

            “I don’t follow that book or recognize its authority.”

            But yet, you’re on a Christian website. Hmm…

            “Last time I checked bakeries…”

            Didn’t answer my question.

            “Most of the Christians I know…”

            Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

          • MisterPine

            “Theological understanding” – does that mean cherry picking? You KNOW I can effortlessly post several verses of scripture where a vengeful God wants killing to be done in His name.

            “But yet, you’re on a Christian website. Hmm…”

            Yeah, strange, eh? I also post on cat-related forums and I’m not a cat, either.

            “Didn’t answer my question.”

            Not necessary. Do bakeries bake cakes or not?

            “Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

            No True Scotsman fallacy. Try again.

          • smbelow

            “You KNOW I can effortlessly…”

            Sure, and you can contextually butcher the meaning of what you try to introduce as immoral; by leaving out relative information and trying to redefine passages out of context. Yeah…I’ve already been through that with individuals that hen peck at scripture instead of studying it.

            “Yeah, strange, eh?…”

            False comparison.

            “Not necessary.

            Yes it is.

            “Do bakeries bake cakes or not?”

            Can I go into any bakery and request a custom cake with whatever I want, and the owners would have to comply??

            “No True Scotsman fallacy. Try again.”

            Wow…I can’t believe you brought that one up. Nice way to misuse a philosophical fallacy. Go look up some examples on that one before trying to hold on to it as an error in my BIBLICAL POST.

          • MisterPine

            Context, eh? What context do you need for the verses in Leviticus and Romans that call for the death of homosexuals? Those aren’t nearly the worst ones, either, but you brought up “context,” not me.

            “False comparison.”

            Not in the least. You are nothing like any Christians I know who gave no issue with homosexuals, and I have a right to speak out against your bigotry.

            “Yes it is.”

            No. Bakers bake cakes. They have no right to discriminate.if your cake requests nothing that breaks the law, you have no recourse to refuse.

            You used the No True Scotsnan fallacy, and invoking the Bible to do it does nothing to negate that fact.

          • smbelow

            “Context, eh?”

            Please, don’t go there. It’s obvious just by your statement that you are theologically inept. Heck, I’ve been studying for decades and still studying.

            “Not in the least. You are nothing…”

            You are not referencing the correct comment.

            “.if your cake requests nothing that breaks the law…”

            My point wasn’t about what the law is defining as permissible. My comment was asking if a baker can refuse service based on moral issues.

            You really seem good at changing the context of your posts mid stream.

            “You used the No True Scotsnan fallacy”

            I know you might think I used it wrong, but I didn’t. Please go back and study how to properly use it. If you really don’t see it. I’ll leave a couple examples and explanation tomorrow. But, for tonight, I need to go visit family. 🙂

          • MisterPine

            You started this nonsense by suggesting that people were taking morals and redefining them, as though those morals belonged to and were created by Christians in the first place. Morality is everyone’s, you don’t own it.

            “You are not referencing the correct comment.”

            Yes, you were snidely suggesting that I as a non-Christian should not be on a Christian website. I suggested that you didn’t have to be a cat to read about cat forums. I can take interest without being a member. And it’s ESPECIALLY interesting when everything I read on this forum is negative, judging, whining, and complaining of persecution. In fact the only time I see Christians on this forum happy is when they are high-fiving each other when they have achieved some moral victory over someone else.

            “My comment was asking if a baker can refuse service based on moral issues.”

            If the morals in question are not against the law, I don’t see that you have a leg to stand on. Some of the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians are morally repugnant to me, but if I operated a business I wouldn’t refuse them service.

            “I know you might think I used it wrong, but I didn’t.”

            Trust me, you did. You posted a bit of scripture which you believe gives you the right to define who is and who is not a “true Christian”. If you have some other explanation for what you think Matthew 7:21 means, I would certainly like to know how it’s relevant.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, the Bible calls them “false” Christians.
            And, “apostates”. And warns actual Christians to: “From such, turn away!” 2 Timothy 3:5.
            You’re welcome.

          • MisterPine

            No True Scotsman yet again, huh, Rumpy?
            The Bible doesn’t call them “false” Christians, YOU call them that. Nice try at projecting your bigotry to someone else.

          • Sherry

            The old testament must be understood in the setting and time it was written in. It takes a while to explain it but i hope you dont believe that God is mean or bad because He hates sin. The same sin that hurts people and that laws are made to curb.
            In the old testament people who were being conquered by wars were doing horrible things and God did not like it. They were warned and suffered the consequences of what the law was at the time. That does not make God mean just like judgement from judges (the ones complying with the laws) are not bad. Alot of what was recorded in the old testament that man did (even “Gods people” was not condoned by God and was punished by Him) When you read the old testament it needs to be done with careful consideration to the times…and the events must be considered carefully and you need to look for the consequence.
            May people read only parts of the bible say one section of a book and then say this is horrible but they dont understand the complete story.
            It would be like some one telling you that their parents through them out of the house on the street and they dont have a place to live. U may ting the parent is horrible if yo dont ask on. The kid may have given more than reason to do so…

          • Beltshazzar

            You might not believe in the authority of the Bible but you soon will. Most Christians you know, if they think like you, are wolves in sheep s clothing. Repent while there is still time. It is not Gods will that any should perish but alas He won’t force you against your will.

          • MisterPine

            Sorry. Not interested.

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            ‘Christians’ are Christ followers. i dont think christians–christ followers– are anti gay. we are anti gay AGENDA. their agenda is to force society to make homosexual “marriage” normal. it’s not normal. God INSTITUTED marriage…between a man and a woman. if a person wants to argue with God…who is the creator of all things…argue away.

          • MisterPine

            Gay people don’t want special rights. They want EQUAL rights. They want the ability to marry the people they love, just like straight people. You Christians always want to make a mockery of them for it because you can’t believe they can actually be in love, but they are. And marriage is not the property of Christians anyway. Marriage predates Christianity, and atheists can get married too by simply stopping in at the justice of the peace. So it isn’t your place to tell people they can’t get married. There’s no “gay agenda” except to be treated fairly.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Amen.

          • Sherry

            They need to stand in the correct way! Standing for Religion is not simply being obstinate there is a right way to to the same thing.

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            AGREED

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            That is one of the most foolish comments I have read yet. What you “imagine” is going on in a “married” couple’s bedroom? Oh, excuse me, they are probably singing praise songs all night.

          • MisterPine

            What is going on in a married couple’s bedroom is just as irrelevant to a baker of cakes. It should not matter.

          • Sherry

            lol what a comical way to explain your point I nearly choked. But I must agree in this case…

          • Resa Forseth Wagner-Pittman

            It wasn’t a cake for something happening in the privacy of the bedroom. It was a cake to celebrate a public ceremony that would be recorded in a public record and was a legal contract. Nothing private about it.

            However, that aside, the most appalling part of this is that the accused are being denied their right to due process and a jury of their peers. How is it that we have gotten to a place in this country where two people can claim grievous injury with no expert testimony and no way for the accused to defend themselves???

            This is the real travesty.

          • MisterPine

            $135,000 is a slap on the wrist. They should have been fined a half mil at LEAST.

            The public ceremony you talk about was legal, as far as I know. Nothing else should matter.

          • disqus_wwonka

            The bakers are not being allowed to their religious freedoms. That does matter.

          • MisterPine

            Their “religious freedoms” oppress other people, that matters more.

          • Resa Forseth Wagner-Pittman

            So? So what if it’s legal. It’s also legal to eat in a restaurant and yet no one is obligated to serve you just because you show up. Legal, illegal has nothing to do with it.

            And perhaps 135,000 is chump change to you….it sure isn’t to most folks, especially those who are young, have young children and are just trying to make a living.

            Besides which, how is it okay for anyone to basically put a price on how deeply offended they are by just saying so and having no testimony to back it up? All these women did was claim injury and yet no burden of proof has ever been imposed upon them. It IS their burden to prove it….and they aren’t being made to. The defendants are being made to prove their innocence…..and they aren’t even able to do that.

            This is not how the justice system in this country is supposed to work.

          • Sherry

            Knowing why some one is doing something is not the business of owners it is providing a service under legal operations defined by the law they ,must perform or change their business to a christian ministry.

          • Resa Forseth Wagner-Pittman

            Okay….say you make cakes for a living and someone wants you to make a cake that depicts two dogs mating. Do you have to make it? Not asking whether or not you want to….I’m asking whether or not you have to.

          • The Last Trump

            Sure you can.
            “WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE FOR ANY REASON”
            Surely you’ve seen such a sign at some point in your life?
            Anybody can refuse to do business with potential customers. It’s their loss to incur should they so decide.
            NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. (discriminates against the shirtless and the shoeless!)
            EXCLUSIVE MENS CLUBS. (discriminates against women!)
            And on and on and on…
            This nonsense that a business cannot refuse service is utterly ridiculous and absolutely not founded on fact of any kind.
            More LGBT bullying. Big surprise.

          • MisterPine

            No, I have never seen a sign refusing the right to service for no reason. There should be a reason to deny service. And it should be a good reason. No shoes and no shirt is a good reason, because people should be dressed appropriately. Someone’s private life which you wouldn’t even know about unless they told you is NOT a good reason. What were you saying about LGBT bullying again?

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            “”WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE FOR ANY REASON”Surely you’ve seen such a sign at some point in your life?”

            That has not been legal since 1964.

            “NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. (discriminates against the shirtless and the shoeless!)”

            Businesses are legally allowed to set dress codes.

            “EXCLUSIVE MENS CLUBS. (discriminates against women!)”

            Allowed if the club is private and not a place of public accommodation.

            “This nonsense that a business cannot refuse service is utterly ridiculous and absolutely not founded on fact of any kind.”

            That comment is utterly ridiculous and absolutely not founded on fact of any kind. Your understanding of anti-discrimination is woefully inadequate.

          • Beltshazzar

            They did not act, or refuse to act based on their imagination. They made a choice concerning the facts. The fact here is they don’t want to facilitate or help to facilitate something they believe is harmful to the client and goes against their conscience and moral understanding. To rooster can’t make a chicken never did and never will! Mr pine your wood is limp and your argument is a red herring.

          • MisterPine

            The fact here is that they can keep doing this and keep getting fined for breaking the law, or they can treat people like human beings and not shame or humiliate them for simply wanting to make use of the services they offer. It is no one’s business at all what a person’s relationship is to someone else, if they’re law-abiding citizens and consenting adults. It’s certainly not grounds for denying them service. I thought Christians were not supposed to judge, anyway.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Obviously, if you are a Christian, you should be following the Bible. If you are not, follow whatever you want, but don’t expect Christians to have to trample the Bible in order to accommodate your own morality, or lack thereof.

          • Bill

            everyone regardless of religion must follow the law so it doesn’t matter what your book says

          • smbelow

            You’re absolutely right, Bill. However, what’s to say that history doesn’t repeat itself and governments or powerful entities don’t start executing Christians? Oh…wait! Isn’t that happening right now?

          • Bill

            no it’s not. no Christan in America has been killed because of their religion at lest not by the government

          • smbelow

            Oh!!! So, all those Christians losing their heads in the Middle East are irrelevant?

            We are talking about the LAW; where its context is a product of man’s relativist moral framework. The litmus test is the world, not just where the U.S. sits at this moment. Who knows how far the U.S. government will take things in the future.

          • Bill

            yes they are. and we are talking about America and nowhere else and in America christians aren’t and never will be killed because of their religion

          • smbelow

            Actually, we were talking about law. And being that law is universal, my global analogy is relative.

            “…aren’t and never will be killed…”

            Possibly, but you can’t be certain. Just look how the country’s focus is on silencing Christians. The Christians are actually starting to stand out as the minority entity. Eventually, it is feasible to think that we (Christians) will be viewed as a danger to unifying the country.

          • Bill

            no they won’t. I can say that with 100% certainty. and law aren’t universal.

          • smbelow

            Didn’t understand what I meant by universal, that’s okay. But you can’t be 100% certain, unless your God. 🙂

          • Bill

            I can you cannot execute or arrest someone because of their religion

          • smbelow

            Umm…did you mistakenly tag me?

          • Beltshazzar

            In case you have not figured it out Sherry is not a Christian, she is a troll. She knows a few verses of the Bible and pulls them way out of context because she or he is spiritually blind. When the LGBTPedophile community trys to force their perversion on everyone else (90%) of the populace, they are doing real harm to the community. I take everybody first time at face value. I don’t care what your sin is. But….when you start trying to push my children or grandchildren into your perversion our relationship will change. I will be praying for Sherry or whoever she/he is.

          • Deb Bunno

            I don’t think the Christian bakes have gay themed cakes for sale. That’s the thing. it’s their persoanl thing, and it’s their choice. No one has the right to force them to compromise their beliefs, not even gay people.

          • Bill

            sure they do. if the law say you must do something then you do it. personnel feels are irrelevant

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, that’s what the Nazi’s we hanged said too.
            Just following orders doesn’t cut it. People who are not cowards stand up for their convictions and values regardless of the ever changing laws of political correctness. No matter the cost.

          • Bill

            then don’t whine when you’re punished for breaking the law

          • wayne8734

            Bill,the right to practice ones religion is in the Constitution and this was going against their religion!

          • Bill

            you do have the right to practice your religion but that doesn’t mean you can use your religion t disobey the law

          • Sherry

            What you choose to offer is up to the baker but not selling the item. You are right though Deb, no one can force you to go against your beliefs but if you break the law there will be consequences.
            Some day there will be a number that will be needed to buy and sell stuck on your forehead or hand. if you break that law you will suffer the consequences. What are you going to do? Tell the gov that the law is stupid and no one can make you take the number? Go a head you will starve and be killed and no one is going to stop them. All through history Christians have suffered for their belief but in this case not abiding the law was wrong. If they dont want to serve gays they must be consistent and not serve abortionist or people who are living together or people who are devil worshipers or… if they do not then they are singling out one type of sin to punish and that is inconstant with scripture.
            If they want a christian moral shop they mush apply for that from the court.

          • wayne8734

            Sherry ,I have read the same comment from you several times at least,the bakery did not refuse to serve them,any item they had there was for sale to anyone that came in to buy it.But to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding is a different matter,it went against their Christian principles.I’m sure the Supreme Court will soon address this and when going against ones religion,their right of religious convictions will be upheld.

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            what this really boils down to is that there is a ‘MOVEMENT’ of homosexual and lesbians who have an agenda. this is NOT new. they have the goal of forcing homosexuality on our society as ‘normal.’…homosexual marriage as ‘normal.’ they have accomplished much. AND they are not finished. another of their goals is to teach our children, IN SCHOOL, that homosexual families are no different than heterosexual families. SO , you see, what is happening, IS, harming something else…our whole way of life, the lives of our children and their children and their children. God Himself ordained marriage. man has NO RIGHT to change what God has instituted. as a christian i can stand against their agenda.

      • Steve

        That is exactly what they are doing, looking for Christian businesses just for this very reason. What a deal to go seek out Christians so when you don’t get what you want turn around and file a lawsuit and steal 125,000 from the horrible Christians and put it in the coffers of the gay agenda!! What they are doing is premeditated period..

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Absolutely correct.

        • Sherry

          Again…we cannot lump all gays in together . There are a group of them that are mean just for the fun of it but not all. Most of the ones i know are wonderful people who will help any one. But to deny the rights of a product is not right in any way because of a persons race color religion or any other preference if you want to own a business. It breeds corruption to let people get away with breaking laws no matter of anything else beside that fact.

          • disqus_wwonka

            Where is it written in the Constitution people have a “right of service” and “rights of a product”?

          • Bill

            nowhere but it doesn’t need to be written for it to be a right.

          • Sandy Buchanan

            Sherry, these laws were put into effect to discriminate against Christians. Do you not know what is going on in this country? This is part of the persecution against Christians. I’m not sure you are a Christian = Christ follower. There is NO hate in refusing to serve someone. I will be loving to everyone, as God commands me to do….this government (Obama and his admin.) has made many things “hate crimes” when it shouldn’t be. They have put a great divide in religion and race. They are chipping away at our freedoms and liberties and that is what the gay agenda is all about. We still have freedom of speech and religion. Christians (not the ones who say they are) will put God first above all others and all things. Satan is working on overtime because he knows his time is almost up. Please, don’t fall for the lie by the father of lies. God bless.

          • Bill

            what color is the sky in your world?

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            i’m sure its blue.

          • Bill

            doubtful considering the fantasy she’s concocted

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            AGREED sandy!!!

          • UmustBKiddinMe

            ” these laws were put into effect to discriminate against Christians.”

            Really? So only Christians have to follow these laws?

            “this government (Obama and his admin.) has made many things “hate crimes” when it shouldn’t be.”

            Such as?

            “They are chipping away at our freedoms and liberties and that is what the gay agenda is all about.”

            Such as?

          • Jane Steele Valentine

            Please read my response, to you, above sherry. ‘they do all’ have their agenda, its just that there are those who are the activists…the mean one’s ,for all of them. and not for the fun of it. so pretty much all of them can be lumped into the same lump, in this respect. do you understand what i’m saying?

      • Deb Bunno

        Yes! So true. Including the people who make cakes.

      • Jane Steele Valentine

        the thing of it is… my sin…say… yelling, really mean, hurtful , angry words at my husband, isnt going to play a part in changing what biblical marriage is and how homosexual marriage, becoming legal, will change the very fabric of our society. you see the homosexual & lesbian movement’s intention is not only to be legally married, but then to have teaching changed in all of our schools, to make their perverse way of life taught as normal. this is a fact that you can investigate and find to be true. so i think that it is ok to pick this sin and single it out just because their INTENTION is to make these changes. its already been totally accomplished on television. they have had their way!!! you cant watch hardly anything without the homosexual lifestyle being portrayed as ‘normal.’ what you see on tv is also their goal in our schools. i think there is nothing wrong with standing ‘against’ this.

    • Amanda Allen

      problem with Christians is.. they pick and choose what partof the bible to listen too… only god can judge… but these bakers are judging the couple… your sin is your owns… you can not control the next man choices.. the christian thing to do is accept them for who they are… and keep it moving… because in the end you answer for your own sins.

      • Deb Bunno

        I’m not so sure it’s a judgement so much as a refusal to participate in another sin. Just because people have their own sins to deal with doesn’t mean they might as well jump into someone else’s sins. It might even be worse, in their eyes, to participate for money.

        • Sherry

          Making a cake to sell under the law that defines commerce is NOT participating in some ones sin just as Jesus making wine for a wedding for people He knew were drunk was not participating in their drunkenness. Just like God blessing a murderer with a job and money is not
          him participating in their murdering!

          • Beltshazzar

            Where in the narrative does it say the wedding guests were drunk? That is called an assumption by you. I digress befor you start speaking for God you sure better understand what He really said and not add your experience to the equation. Jesus was very kind and patient with sinners but very harsh on those who twisted His Word to justify their debauchery. I digress read the Word and pray for wisdom so you can understand the meaning of the text, or more importantly the heart and will of God.

          • Sherry

            10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

            If they were well drunk (and no I am not saying that well drunk is calling them drunk) and Jesus made more wine what could you say about what their condition would be after they drank more?
            I have studied and taught the Bible and Biblical concepts for for 30 years. Im ok with my knowledge level…
            Did you know traditionally the passover consisted of 4 glasses of wine? I can drink one before i’m tipsy. Noah was toasted in his tent, Jacob couldn’t see who he was sleeping with and woke up to Leah. People condemned Jesus for “eating and drinking.”

            We need to use some common since when interpreting the Bible Exegesis is the term for what preachers call gleaning the truth from a passage and there are many resources one uses to do so, including cultural knowledge, archaeological findings and commentaries we refer to when studying. After all of that believe me you pretty much know what your talking about…

            Either way, the main thing is to bring people to the knowledge of G-d and Paul said “come let us reason” We are not to be judges or trouble makers. Paul reprimanded Peter for simply getting up and walking away from the gentiles while at a meeting. This hurt their feelings. The act of walking away was because the Jews he was with did not accept the unclean gentiles although Peter just didnt want to offend the Jews he was with. hmmm

          • Beltshazzar

            I am a pastor and a missionary and have been reading and studying the Bible for over 50 years. I am well acquainted with the term exegesis and I know how to glean the truth and to understand it when plainly written. Noah did not intend to get drunk, and one could “glean” from the scriptures the possibility fermentation was not known before the flood. But you can’t know it. You are stretching it with Jacob by assuming he was blind drunk because Laban had a feast. She could have disguised herself and he could have been dead tired after working for seven years for Rachel. You can’t even type the word God, so let me help with a few names. Jesus, Yahweh, Yeshua, Holy Spirit, Emanuel . The religious leaders condemned Jesus for associating with sinners, but He did not participate in their sins. Getting drunk is a sin. So by your gleaning of the scriptures you think Jesus made a bunch of wine and they got drunk off of it. at some point in time ? That would make Jesus a participator in their sin, not unlike those in this article. You use some common sense!….” Let no man say when he is tempted he is tempted by God. For God cannot be tempted by sin NEITHER doth He Tempt any man., but every man is tempted by his own lust, and lust, when it is finished brings forth sin, and sin when it sin finished brings forth DEATH …” Now Jesus would have known they would be getting drunk after he gave them the new wine, after all He is God, so by your understanding He facilitated their sin. If you study extraneous sources , as you claim as well as Hebrew and Aramaic, then you know some believe new wine refers to UN-fermented wine Repent and see your folly. I have to work to pay for my missions trips I do that as an engineer in an office which is full of homosexuals. I love them and pray for them and understand full well Loving the sinner and not the sin. But if the watchman does not warn the sinner and He dies in his sin That mans blood will be on the watchmen s head. I don’t want either thing to occur so I am not ashamed to proclaim the Gospel of Christ, (even if it is offensive to some) for it is the power of God unto salvation”

          • Sherry

            That is not reasonable to interperate the story points that way because people dont want to believe thst Jesus drank wine and hung out with those kinds of people but no one can dispute the That is not reasonable to interperate the story points that way because people dont want to believe thst Jesus drank wine and hung out with those kinds of people but no one can dispute the fact that he had sinners around him so either way he loved and took care of sinners and of all the pastors I know personally they all agree with what I said.
            It is ok to disagree on points not nessacery for salvation so i wont argue tho point. But i will sat that weddings wete all about drinking and Noah was Drunk lol i guess he was the only one who did drink though because the Bible wasnt specific on people being drunk or not…poor Noah no one said he participated in their sin just that he drank. My point was that he did hang with sinners in my previous post .
            Telling some one that they cant type God is a personal attack and un nessacery. Im not incompatition with you about the Bible.
            I pay for my missions trips and for others to go im not sure where all this is relevent to my discussion.
            Either way, i pray you and your work blessings im guessing we have differing beliefs on the Bible so no need to discuss further… that he had sinners around him so either way he loved and took care of sinners and of all the pastors I know personally they all agree with what I said.
            It is ok to disagree on points not nessacery for salvation so i wont argue tho point. But i will sat that weddings wete all about drinking and Noah was Drunk lol i guess he was the only one who did drink though because the Bible wasnt specific on people being drunk or not…poor Noah no one said he participated in their sin just that he drank. My point was that he did hang with sinners in my previous post .
            Telling some one that they cant type God is a personal attack and un nessacery. Im not incompatition with you about the Bible.
            I pay for my missions trips and for others to go im not sure where all this is relevent to my discussion.
            Either way, i pray you and your work blessings im guessing we have differing beliefs on the Bible so no need to discuss further…

          • Amanda Allen

            did you know that 3 people can read the same scripture and get 3 different meanings from them… so you knowing them are irrelevant.

          • Kathy

            ? would it have been against the law if they would have simply said we don’t want to cater your wedding. I understand about “witnessing” but I also can read the signs that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” No explanation needed. Done and Done

        • Amanda Allen

          but they not jumping in someone else sin… you cant jump in and be acconted for someone else sin… his sin is his own and becaise you bake a cake for them will not send you to hell… it was judging their life style… than it was a refusal… point blank… most Christians has lost their way… thinking someone must walk, talk, like, and think like you do or they are not welcomed in your place of business is just sad. like i said earlier, Jesus surrounded him self with sinners and treated them like equals, what makes them better? a lesson was being taught when he walked the earth but no one was listening.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        God tells us to “make righteous judgment.” You people and your favorite “only God can judge” is completely out of context. Every decision we make in life is a judgment, whether something is good or bad, whether I will or will not do it. When we stop judging, we become in a vegetative state. God does NOT expect his children to participate in or advocate for sins He has called abominations. Or for any other sins, for that matter, but I have yet to see adulterers and murderers and liars try to force bakeries to bake them cakes promoting their wrongful lifestyle.

        • Sherry

          we are to decide if something is right or wrong (judge) it was never Gods intention for us to make a consequences for others but rather to make a choice for our own souls not to do something that would make our own soul sin. Only God can judge means that we cannot punish those who sin. That is why God calls us to do right, to love, and to serve the “lost”

      • Beltshazzar

        ” problem with Christians is….” Is a judgmental statement followed by many more. SMH

        • Sherry

          Making an observation is different than judgement a judgement is treating people wrong because of what they do and I would never do that. Pointing out a problem is way different. Just as I would , have, and do point out things to gays. Funny thing about a lot of them is they actually are appreciative.

        • Sherry

          But by the way that was some one else’s post…

        • Amanda Allen

          im judging an religion… which is writing on a piece of paper.. that most don’t even understand… ONLY GID CAN JUDGE ANOTHER MAN FOR HIS SIN. so you feel better now?

      • Jane Steele Valentine

        it is not judging, when someone exercises discernment, about what sin is. condemning the sinner is judging. so, you can choose, to not be a part in something that is sinful, without it being judgemental.

    • Nina Michelle

      I ask you to replace “gay friendly” with “black friendly”. How does that settle with you? How about “Jew friendly”? It was not that long ago black people and Jewish people were treated this way, then later mixed marriages as well. Mixed in color and mixed in religion. We always must hold the mirror up to ourselves. Love of everyone is what we have been commanded to do. As a Christian, I practice this everyday. Sometimes more than other times. Be well.

    • jmichael39

      finding a gay friendly baker isn’t their point. They do this for the single purpose of pushing fundamental Christianity into a position of second class citizen.
      And it is not just about homosexuality. Even Hillary, the other day, was literally saying the religion must change to make it more acceptable for women to have abortions. They don’t respect religious liberty unless it conforms to THEIR version of morality.

    • morrowrn

      You have stated it perfectly Erika! I believe they are baiting Christians for their agenda. There is absolutely no reason that they can’t just go to another bakery, but that isn’t the way of the world now. In my opinion it is no different than muslims demanding that restaurants not serve pork because it offends them! Then…..stay home. No one is forcing you to go that bakery, that restaurant, etc.

    • backell

      “How hard is It to find a “gay friendly” cake shop!”

      The question, by Oregonian law, shouldn’t need to be answered. By law, they can’t discriminate based on sexual preference. They are. Ergo, they’re breaking the law.

      How hard is it to find a “black friendly” cake shop?

      Discrimination is discrimination, and it’s time to stop justifying it.

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      “How hard is It to find a “gay friendly” cake shop! ”

      You got that right! And if a business owner’s religious beliefs are that the races should not mix, how hard would it be to find an interracial friendly cake shop, right?

      “the lesbian’s lives have not been altered nearly as much as the couple they have sued!”

      Yeah, it does tend to be that the person who broke the law is more effected than the person who was the subject of the illegal activity. Funny how that works, huh?

      “I don’t understand WHY is it so hard for homosexuals to understand that Christians do not hate them,, they just simply do not agree or condone the lifestyle they choose to be in, and can not be supportive participants in the gay lifestyle which includes gay marriages!”

      I don’t understand WHY is it is so hard for some people to understand that if people open a business, they are required to operate the business according to the law.

      “they are simply living out their lives according to their religious beliefs! its not a personal hate!”

      The couple is simply holding the business accountable to the law. It’s not personal hate.

      “how hard is it to respect someone’s religious beliefs, turn the other cheek and find another place for a cake!”

      See above regarding interracial couples.

      “do what you want to me, my belief will not change!”

      So then you would not do a wedding cake if one of the couple had been previously divorced for reasons other than adultery, right? You wouldn’t do a cake for a baby shower if the mother-to-be wasn’t married, right? You wouldn’t do a cake for an engagement party if the couple were having sexual relations, right?

    • raytheist

      The lesbian couple did not sue. The filed a complaint with the Attorney General’s office.

    • jwveverka

      Asshole

    • Patti

      Since you must know the very word “lifestyle” is offensive to gay people and their families, then you’re starting off your plea for tolerance on the wrong note. Being gay is not a lifestyle.

    • Peter Leh

      “How hard is It to find a “gay friendly” cake shop!”

      that is not the point. Discrimination against protected groups is a violation of the business registration. The registration the business owners choose.. btw

  • SFBruce

    Should a Christian baker sell a wedding cake to a Jewish couple? What about selling that cake to someone who claims to be Christian, but the Christian baker believes that sect to be apostate? Wouldn’t doing business with these individuals also violate I Timothy 5:22 and Ephesians 5:17?

    • smbelow

      No! You are comparing two different ideas.

      • SFBruce

        How are they different? In so many ways, they seem very similar to me. Jews don’t accept the divinity of Jesus, and at least some Christians believe apostasy is a serious enough sin to deny entrance to heaven. Isn’t that the reason some Christian bakers don’t want to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple?

        • smbelow

          It’s different because one doesn’t violate moral issues; the other does.

          • SFBruce

            Rejection of Jesus’ divinity and apostasy aren’t moral issues? Really????

          • smbelow

            It’s a salvation issue.

          • SFBruce

            Explain the difference between salvation and moral issues.

          • smbelow

            Salvation is what we receive through from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

            Moral issues are those things that are in everyone’s heart; informing us of those actions which are right and wrong.

          • SFBruce

            I still don’t understand why a Christian baker should object only to the sin of gay people. Why not others?

          • smbelow

            You’re not thinking.

            I’m sure all kinds of sinners enter this establishment and are served with no contention. Heck! The owners even indicated these two women were served in the past. The problem is when they proclaimed their sin and intended for the Christian owners to show approval for their proclamation in a ceremony that adheres to the definition of a natural relationship of man and woman as dictated by God.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            They are not objecting only to sins of gay people. Rather it is gay people who are the only ones forcing their sins upon people of faith. No one else is going around insisting the bakers put immoral symbols or words on a cake and sueing them if they cannot do so in good conscience. Why can you not understand that very simple concept?

          • Sherry

            The concept that one sin is worse than the other. Rejection of Gods Son will get him the same penalty as the sin of a Gay person.

          • smbelow

            Correct. But we are not talking about “what is judgment.” We are talking about the principled differences between living morally and believing in God. Anyone can live morally.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            No, rejection of God’s sin will give them a much worse penalty than the sin of a gay person. Jesus has said clearly if we do not believe in Him, we do not have eternal life. But I am sure that if an atheist were to insist those bakers put something to the effect of “God’s son is dead” on the cake, they would not do that either. This kind of thinking can know no limits. This country must have the freedom to believe and live out their beliefs in a way that hurts no one (and don’t give me that PC garbage about emotional harm) or we are no better than Communist China or Russia or any othe repressive state where the State rules as God and no one better dare try to follow their God-given beliefs or they are toast.

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          They are similar only if the cake said something like “The Jewish way is the only way to heaven.” Or the apostate Christian forced the baker to write on his cake: “God is dead.” If it goes against a Christian’s Bible-given beliefs, that Christian should not be forced to advocate for it. That is hypocrisy, and it is wrong.

      • nmgene

        If I dont have the right to refuse service to anyone I wont stay in that state!!!!!!! The judge should be recalled and the idiot law recinded>

    • Sherry

      Point is, we cant judge all sinners and reject them all. If we can turn down gays, then why not people living together or women who have had abortions or…gays aren’t murderers but we greet any woman who has had an abortion like they are just fine. We cant pick and choose sin.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        Only gays are demanding we approve of and help them celebrate their sin. Most other sinners have the common decency to not force their sins on others or be sued until they are destroyed. Stupid law.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Who cares? I don’t know if it violates Timothy, Ephesians, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy or the Ten Commandments. It violates Oregon Statute

      659A.403(1). That’s the only issue I’m concerned with.

      • SFBruce

        I’m completely with you. In the state of Oregon, it’s also illegal for a public accommodation to discriminate based on religion, so a baker who denied service to a Jewish person or a Christian he or she disapproves of, he’d be in some legal trouble. I’m simply curious why it’s only the “sin” of gay people that Christian bakers would object to.

    • Deb Bunno

      it should be up to the private business owner. If we don’t have free choice in this country, then the gov should choose who we marry and bake the cake.

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      Maybe if the cake said “The Jewish way is the only way to heaven.” Or the apostate Christian forced the baker to write on his cake: “God is dead.” If it goes against a Christian’s Bible-given beliefs, that Christian should not be forced to advocate for it. That is hypocrisy, and it is wrong.

  • vega388

    Two things here, what ever happened to we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone??? And what about their Christian values and morels being trampled on here?? Last I looked if you did this to a Muslim in this country nothing would be said or done!!!!! What in the hell is happening to this country???????

    • Ambulance Chaser

      1) It went away with the Civil Rights Act. I suppose you disagree with that too?

      2) Please cite to an Oregon Muslim-owned business that denied service to a customer based on sexual orientation and suffered no legal repercussions because they were Muslim. Or, let me guess: “last [you] looked” was never, right?

      • Sherry

        Each case must be decided upon separately. In this case the Christians went against the law. In that case you mentioned the Judge went against the law. People cant determine the rightness of a case according to the wrongness of another case. How does that make since?

        • Ambulance Chaser

          He asked “what ever happened to ‘we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone?'” I don’t know if businesses ever had that right. They certainly haven’t since 1964, when the federal Civil Rights Act was passed. I don’t know if they had that right before that, but definitely as of 1964.

          No, it’s not terribly relevant to this issue, I just want to know if vega388 thinks business owners should be allowed to throw out Black people too.

          • smbelow

            “…throw out black people too”
            Outside of the inflammatory way you word your post; A person’s skin color, rationally, is not the same as how when defines their sexual proclivities.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Maybe, maybe not, but so what? Vega388 asked whether business owners have the right to refuse service to anyone, and I answered that no, they don’t.

        • http://racetrackdegenerate.com/ Fred the Red

          sense not since

          • Sherry

            Thank you for clearing this all important matter up!

      • vega388

        That’s right!!!!!!! I Appose any Communist Government like the one you seem to agree with here that tramples on the true rights of good free straight people!!!!!!!!! You people only want things the way you want them regardless of what kind of consequences it has on society and the country and that’s BS!!!!

        On the 2nd one, I said IF imbecile IF!!!! Can’t you read straight or are you filled with communist Government revised books from UC Berkley!!!

        But if you need a good example of what I was saying, watch this on youtube Gumby.

        Arab Festival 2010: Dearborn Police Defending Islam against the Constitution

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Yes, I watched it. The city’s actions were unconstitutional, and they suffered the consequences. The missionaries sued them and the case settled.

          How is any of this relevant to the present issue?

          • vega388

            Don’t be so nonchalant!!! You know damn well its very relevant.

            Tell me how this kind of crap is even happening??? Just like the cake issue, it should never be happening PERIOD!!!! Just as this cake issue those cops should have KNOWN in their guts what they were doing was WRONG!!!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Well, they know now. What is it you’d like me to say? I already agree with you.

            I’m still trying to figure out how it’s relevant to this issue though.

          • vega388

            You really don’t see it do you?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You keep saying things like that, but never anything useful or descriptive. What is it I’m “not seeing?”

          • vega388

            Just keep walking in darkness my friend and I will pray that you find the light.

          • vega388

            Your missing the big picture bud.

    • Sherry

      We don’t have the right to refuse to serve any one unless you establish that right before you open your business , define it and categorize your business under some sort of heading that the business laws allow before you open. I am a business owner. When you open your business you must inform the court where you are registering what your intentions for your business are. Once agreed up on you are even confined to your businesses regulations.

  • sahana64

    Looks like the Lezzies hit the jackpot. Open game to those who stand by their beliefs. Now who is the bigot?

  • sahana64

    The sodomites will target those businesses that stand behind their belief it is the new state lottery for homosexuals. Need better laws that prevent such nonsense.

  • Kachina

    These two gays found a way to get easy money….shame on this Judge! Shame! Christians must start becoming more active against these attacks! God Bless this couple! Shame on You, Judge!! I cannot believe this is happening in America!

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Shame on the judge for ruling in accordance with the law? Judges are not supposed to rule in accord with the law?

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        Well, there you go, another profession in jeopardy because of the gaystapo. I am sure when most righteous judges took the position, they did so with no idea this ridiculous time would come when 6000 years of history would be overturned in one decade to represent everything that is deplorable and perverse about society. So now, bye bye, judges, and bakers, and doctors, and florists, and pharmacists, and pretty soon pastors, and all the rest of the good people who prepared years for good professions that have suddenly been turned on their heads because of some very evil people in high places who hate God and his Word and anyone who attempts to sincerely follow it and stand against homosexuality and abortion..

      • Kachina

        What about Religious Rights and Freedom? Is that not the foundation of America? There is a video of a man seeking a wedding cake at a Muslim Bakery and they declined him… Where is the lawsuit against the Muslims? No, this was a lawsuit that reeked with Injustice against Christians who believe homosexuality is against God’s will.. Sad thing is the stupid lesbians that sued had to pay their Attorney’s much more than what they ultimately received. They wanted to destroy a hard working couple. Congrats Lesbians..mission accomplished.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          That really doesn’t address my point. Is the judge ruling according to the law or not?

        • Ambulance Chaser

          1) You keep acting as if “religious freedom” was a license to do anything you want, even if it infringes on other people’s rights. That is not what religious freedom means. it does not grant you the freedom to do anything you want and then defend yourself by claiming “It’s my religion!”

          2) There was no lawsuit here. The story involves a complaint to a state administrative body.

          3) Show me this alleged video of Muslims.

  • Sherry

    In this emotional and controversial issue it is difficult to say almost anything for or against either side. The sad thing is that intellectual and learned opinions all thought history were what caused the greatest social advancement but now it seems that any opinion is shot down in an advance of emotional combat before any one even takes time to consider if it could be worth further consideration and I have seen it on both sides. Sad

    My personal opinion is that we must obey the rules of service if we are to operate a business in America. We cannot decide who we serve. If that was an option then most of the companies in America could turn down every Christian asking for anything as well as not even hiring us after a while. Be careful what you fight for it could turn around and bite you in the tail end!!!

    Morally or Biblical speaking Jesus would never turn down any one who asked for service!!! If they ask you for water give them to drink in Jesus name. Service does NOT mean agreence. If some one came to may store and asked for anything I would do everything in my power to get it for them and go way beyond what they asked for and make them the biggest prettiest cake I could with the best of my love poured into it and deliver it with a hug …anything less in my opinion is just religious piety although maybe misguided obedience to certain out of context scriptures.

    There are better ways to stop the spread of same sex issues such as start a ministry for them, bible studies, invite them to your home and befriend them, start a ministry from the place of business. “and they will know we are Christians for our love.”

    In this case I would have to agree with the judge. This stuff needs to stop or people are going to hate Christians worse than they already are starting to do.

    Where is the cup of water in Jesus name, family???

    Save the battling for the right for Pastors to decline doing the actual performance of the wedding its self…

    • smbelow

      “Morally or Biblical speaking Jesus would never turn down any one who asked for service!!!”

      So, you’re telling me that Jesus Christ, in your opinion, would not only go to but celebrate a gay wedding?

      “There are better ways…”
      2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

      You are secularizing a lot of your ideas. Secularists have no moral basis to make such judgments with an absolute principle. Otherwise, you’re just going off your own understanding.

      “Save the battling for the right for Pastors…”

      If I’m not mistaken, some pastors in European countries are now being forced to officiate same sex marriages.

      “people are going to hate Christians…”

      Yeah…that’s a prophetic prophecy in the Bible. We (Christians) already understand that these things are going to happen.

      • Sherry

        May I ask you a question? Would he go among publicans and sinners? Sit with them ? Eat with them? Go to their weddings? Make wine for them? I would and yes my friend He would and did!

        • smbelow

          He was among the sinners. He did not participate, celebrate or even idly involve Himself with sinners.

          Oh…the wine he made for the wedding, according to scholars, was not the same type of wine we drink today.

          You need to start studying scripture according to God, not according to flesh. Because my friend, now, you are manipulating scripture to serve your own purposes.

          • TERRY

            We are bent but not broken,pushed down but not destroyed.Has christians we stand on the promise of God.Love the sinner but hate the sin.This family in the end will come out has winners,has they hold onto Gods word.They will reap their reward,and the sinners will know that God will protect his own.

      • Sherry

        Oh by the way, Come out from among them was a call to become different from them not a physical action or we would have to lock ourselves up in a cave.

        • smbelow

          “Oh by the way, Come out from among…” you need to study Wow! You are making very generalized statements that are completely wrong theologically.

          Of course we need to be part of society, but we are not to have fellowship with sinful society. Your statement is kind of juvenile in structural content.

          “Come out of” means just that. Don’t have fellowship or participate in those things which are abhorrent to God.

          • Sherry

            That is funny, Most evangelical pastors preach the same concept. The first one I heard from has a congratulation for 10K people. I would like to hear you tell him that he is Theologically wrong 🙂 I think he and others know what they are talking about.

            The term fellowship, as in fellowship of the world exactly makes my point. Fellowship: community of interest, activity, feeling, or experience.

            …means what I said, It is not a physical act.

            And my comment was not meant to be scholarly written. I dint know that was a criteria for discussion 😉

          • smbelow

            “The first one I heard from has a congratulation for 10K people.”

            The size of a church doesn’t matter. Maybe not all, but most of these large congregations are there to have their ears tickled; not to actually hear the word of God. I could post tones of scripture to support this viewpoint. But that’s not really relevant.

            And if this, supposed, theologian supported such a position, I would, for sure, call him out on it. And whatever his position, it better line up with scripture. Many have been led away by false teachers. That’s scriptural too.

      • Sherry

        We are not to initiate hate was my meaning. I am aware of the prophesy.

        Yes I know about the pastors who are being forced to preform weddings. But commerce is different than a religious organization and rightly so . The couple could redefine their business and make it a ministry in that case they would be able to work off their morals and beliefs if they can demonstrate the proof that they are only making cakes for religious reasons…Respectfully

        • smbelow

          “But commerce is different than a religious organization and rightly so . ..”

          That goes beyond saying, but that has nothing to do with a person’s right to exercise their religious belief. The first amendment protects it.

          “if they can demonstrate the proof…”

          I don’t even know how to start responding to this message. Remember! These people had NO problem serving ANY client. It only became an issue when it crossed a moral line of contention. Your proposal eliminates the core ideas of liberty and freedom.

          • Sherry

            U have rights that are protected in many areas of living. An over all right to have freedom of religious beliefs does not over rider in certain areas of establishment such as if a person opens a public school under the public school heading he then cannot decide to go against its established rules that regulate that type of business. This is what all the fights are about. ie deciding to not hire non Christians. So yes you do have the over all right of freedom of religion until it comes to trying that right when it goes against other established laws. There are exceptions in most laws as well. That is where it gets sticky.

            Remember! These people had NO problem serving ANY client. It only became an issue when it crossed a moral line of contention. Your proposal eliminates the core ideas of liberty and freedom.

            That is what I was trying to communicate. People can not pick and choose who they serve or give items for sale to, under their particular business identity. If they want to change their identity they have the right to do that as well. IF they want to have the right to not serve gays then they need to go back and redefine their business. There is a process people must go thought to operate a business rules regulations that are pre established. People know what those are before they open one. You sign a statement that you know the rules before you walk out the court door. People cant just decide to go against established laws that they are signing that they know about.

            If this were the case people could change things up for each person that walks in the door. There would be chaos and that would defeat the purpose of the laws which are to create order.

            If you have a moral problem with something there are ways to go about getting permission to go by them. There is an order that is right and must be followed or any one could do anything to any one on demand.

            Think of it this way. What if non Christians decided that they truly didn’t like serving people who go against gays and that was their conviction (which is what religious freedoms stand on) They would be able at any moment to not serve you in any of their non christian restaurants, gas stations, stores etc and you would not be able to do any thing about it since it is their conviction. Or better termed religious belief.

            By the way, what I just said about convictions is why many pastors say that being non christian is a religion because all religions are based on convictions. So if you want to let any one who has a conviction ( or religious belief to have the right at any moment to judge you and decide to turn you down to the things you need then we will all be in trouble. There are more non Christians who own businesses than Christians and even those are under the mercy of suppliers 🙂

          • smbelow

            First! How are laws created? What constitutes whether a proposed rule becomes law? Isn’t it through moral standards?

            “ie deciding to not hire non Christians….”

            Red Herring.

            “People can not pick and choose who they serve or give items for sale..”

            I go back to my porno shop example. Then why can’t a porno shop sell to minors or put their business next to a school? It’s called MORALS. Now where are you getting your moral presupposition? Because, right now, you are just saying the law, the law, but not indicating where and how laws are developed; and whether this particular law is being properly established.

            “You sign a statement that you know the rules before you walk out..”

            And…when these people opened their business, did they have this law of having to serve homosexuals? Before States started adopting an amoral attitude, this topic was a non issue.

            “Think of it this way. W…”

            This whole paragraph is at least a “red herring.”

  • 1956cyndi

    I have wondered regarding freedom of religion (1st amendment), cruel and unusual punishment (8) and no involuntary servitude (13) could have any bearing, or if we are past freedoms here now.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      This would be laughable if it weren’t so frustrating in its willful ignorance. The 8th Amendment is irrelevant here; it only deals with criminal cases.

      The 13th Amendment argument is without merit. Restrictions on public accommodations have long been held to be constitutional. Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States 379 U.S. 241.

      As to the First Amendment, I’m sorry, but your rights have limitations. The fact that the balancing act in gay rights v. business owners rights tipped toward the gays does not mean you “are past freedoms here now.” Stop being so melodramatic.

      • smbelow

        “Stop being so melodramatic.”
        Said the person with the username “Ambulance Chaser.”

        Now, that’s laughable…

        • Sherry

          It would help if you would not make personal attacks.

      • Sherry

        I totally agree that our rights have limitations and that is whats being missed here. It is because people are emotionally attaches to the suffering of this business owner who made a mistake that they are being supported even though they broke the laws.

        I do feel for them but they should be careful when they are going to make a decision when it comes to business operation. That is not a place to test the system either you will get burnt.

        They made a costly mistake and paid a high penalty and I do hope that more Christians will see that this couple and they mistake should NOT be repeated. Fight in ANOTHER way!

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        Right. So melodramatic to suggest it might be wrong for people to sue into bankrupcy innocent people who are simply trying to live their faith and obey their God.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          No, and I never said that. It’s melodramatic to complain that you no longer have rights, even when you clearly do, and would still even if facts were as you say they are.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            You are either uninformed or willfully dismissing facts you know to be true. When a florist, a cake maker, a wedding coordinator, a sign maker (thank God for the ruling that just came out on that one today), or a pizza shop owner have to endure harrassment, threats of murder, threats of having their homes burned down and worse, and be fined tens of thousands of dollars ($135,000, to be exact) for simply and kindly declining to bake a cake for a gay wedding, religious rights are not only being denied, they are being trampled as people of faith are being deliberately targeted by these people who are trying to push their perverted lifestyle down people’s throats. And the more they keep up these vicious attacks, the more people are going to wake up and see what these people are really about….while demanding tolerance for themselves, they are some of the most intolerant and hateful people on the planet.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Those actions are not only regrettable, but illegal, and should be prosecuted immediately. However, they have nothing to do with the topic at hand, which was, and still is, one comment made by one person, which has yet to be addressed.

            “And the more they keep up these vicious attacks, the more people are
            going to wake up and see what these people are really about….while
            demanding tolerance for themselves, they are some of the most intolerant
            and hateful people on the planet.”

            What “people” are those? People who commit acts of terror and threats? I should hope that they’re condemned, roundly and completely. They ARE intolerant and the things they do harm our cause.

            However, they don’t represent the majority of liberals any more than the Westboro Baptist Church represents conservatives. And no, no one will “wake up and see” if by “wake up and see” you mean “start changing our opinion on gay rights issues.” Because people are stupid and cant compartmentalize. We just choose our sides and then defend them to the death, no matter what they do.

  • Sherry

    Commerce should not become a moral institution…

    • smbelow

      So, you would have no problem having porn shops next to elementary schools? Hey! And for that matter, preventing such students from enter such an establishment.

      • Sherry

        Serving people items for use is different than regulating use. ” Also, its not what enters a person that defiles them but what comes out of him.”

        • smbelow

          Your comment had to do with defining commerce on a moral bases. If that’s the case, you shouldn’t have a problem with my proposition; seeing that only morals can be used to indicate why it would be a bad idea. Has nothing to do with the difference between the services.

          • Sherry

            Except that I did say it should NOT be defined that way. The idea that people should have the right too receive items for the same money as others is what commerce is about. Moral convictions should not be a determining factor when it comes to buying and selling of items.

            The idea of the place to put certain places of businesses is for the protection of minors according to psychologists studies of the effect (safety involved) on young children. This being the reason for the law as it protects the development of the child’s mind and is not concerning any kind of moral.

          • smbelow

            So you agree then: you would permit a porn shop to open next to an elementary school; further, you wouldn’t have issue with said students buying products from the store.

            “The idea of the place…”

            Wow! That is a convoluted way of saying that we need to make certain moral decisions in order to prevent psychological issues.

            …is not concerning any kind of moral.”

            Bull! You’re just using a post modernist viewpoint of redefining what morals are.

          • Sherry

            *My comment did not include pron shops and schools it was strictly selling to any one. I had that view in mind when making points to your addition. We were not discussion the moral placement of a business.

            *Moral laws are to prevent human perversion so yes the psyche is part of the law process as it should be. Morals and mind are directly related. God thought that moral laws were directly related to the state of being at peace and Paul speaks of the mind all through his letters.

            *You may gather the idea that i am redefining what moral are but that is because you do not understand what I am saying.

            …it is not polite to tell a person what they think, it is very assumptive.

  • Elat

    Glenn Beck needs to do a drive for these ppl too..

  • http://www.splendourgroup.org Esther Chikere

    EXACTLY MY THOUGHTS. WHOEVER GAVE THIS JUDGE A WIG AND A GOWN? HE SHOULD BE FORCED TO RESIGN FOR A HATE CRIME. WHEN DID BUSINESS OWNERS BEGIN TO DANCE TO EVERY CUSTOMER EVEN ONES THEY REGARD AS UNETHICAL TO THEIR PERSONAL BELIEF AND LIFESTYLE.. MY ADVISE WOULD BE FOR THE BAKERS TO APPEAL THE CASE EVEN IF THEY HAVE TO GET TO SUPREME COURT. THE BAKERS ARE HUMANS THEREFORE HAVE BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS TO DO AS THEY WILL ESPECIALLY AROUND THEIR BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT.
    I WILL DONATE A DOLLAR IN PURSUIT OF THEIR LEGAL BILLS WHICH THE BIASED JUDGE WOULD BE MADE TO SETTLE IN ANOTHER CASE.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      A) What “hate crime” did the judge commit? CIte the Penal Code title and section.
      B) What makes you think the judge was biased?

    • Sherry

      When did business owners begin to dance to every customer…?

      When they signed a legal document that defined the business they were openings rules and regulations that says they will not discriminate.

    • MisterPine

      Your screaming capital letters give me a headache, and even if you yell hateful bigotry at the top of your lungs, it’s still hateful bigotry.

      As an African-American female you should really know better, given what it’s like to experience such terrible discrimination.

      • The Last Trump

        Wow. Did you really just scold an African American woman on bigotry by comparing being born with a particular skin colour to sexually immoral behaviour?
        Wow. Just….wow. MisterIntolerant strikes again.

        • MisterPine

          Yep, that’s precisely what I did, Rumpy. Because as a person who has undoubtedly known discrimination and hateful words herself she should be in a very good position to know what they feel like and to not inflict them on another minority.

  • Dream Theater Moment of Reason

    They included “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “distrust of men,” “distrust of former friends,” “excessive sleep,” “discomfort,” “high blood pressure,” “impaired digestion,” “loss of appetite,” “migraine headaches,” “loss of pride,” “resumption of smoking habit,” “shock” “stunned,” “surprise,” “uncertainty,” “weight gain” and “worry.”

    I want to see clear evidence to support their claim of suffering. If a cake maker who declines to make a cake causes these types of things, that would have to be a first. Who is REALLY going to suffer here? Are we actually now going to mandate how business’s operate, really? I’m not against the two LB I’m against what they did to ruin a business and actually accept this fine. Talking about cruel, do these two women understand what they just did to this family that makes cakes. The argument could easily be demonstrated that the family was discriminated against because of their beliefs. If I were this family I would fight this all the way up to the Supreme Court of the state. I’m against discrimination, but in this case it is happening just as much to the family as the two women. (Reminder, this is over a cake) I’m shocked, stunned, surprised, uncertain, am gaining weight, have migranes, impaired digestion, doubt, distrust of government, excessive sleep. Am I going to get that 75,000 dollars by the judge for this decision? The judge just discriminated against me because of his decision to ruin this family. Maybe I should sue. Unbelievable!!!!!

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      Totally.

  • JEmlay

    Good! All these bigots need to be taught a lesson. First christians refused service to blacks, now they want to refuse service to gays.

    • smbelow

      Kind of a bigoted statement you’re making there.

      Refusing service to blacks wasn’t a Christian issue. If anything, it was the lack of Christian understanding. If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it Christians that proposed the ending of slavery. Now, I haven’t thoroughly studied the history of slavery and racial tensions in the United States, but I do believe that any correcting of liberties and freedoms were mainly motivated by Christian principles.

      • Sling

        Furthermore blacks did not “choose” to be black….Skin is black, can’t hide, even bleaching won’t change the unique African features….

      • JEmlay

        Seeing as how I didn’t claim all christians are bigots, no there is nothing bigoted about my statement. Read it again and you’ll see I specificaly address THESE specific bigots.

        Nothing you said changes the fact that our history tells us that the majority of Americans were against civil rights for blacks. At the same time the majority American was Christian. Do the math. The change that came after had nothing to do with the Christian church. Instead many Christians decided to wake the hell up.

        Here we are again with a massive amount of Christians wanting to refuse civil rights to a group of people. So yes, my previous statement stands. I didn’t say it was a church problem. It’s simply a problem with a massive amount of Christians that clearly don’t know their bible from their asshole.

        • smbelow

          Please, let’s not get into an off topic subject of slavery and the whole “most” Americans fallacy. This would be a serious diversion of dialog. And the only outcome would be you trying to pass off a perverted idea of history and the complete nature of slavery.

          However! Let’s look at this statement: “civil rights.”
          It has only been in this postmodern age that “civil rights” was expanded to mean “sodomy.” Now! Can you coherently explain how sexual perversion fits into “civil rights,” knowing that human mores are most relevant to this topic?

          • JEmlay

            I’m not going to get into anything with you. Again, my original comment stands.

          • Yvonne Celeste Lee

            Your original comment sinks, along with your reasoning and foul language.

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      When did Christians refuse service to Blacks? Any proof of that?

  • טוד – Todd

    Only in America… pretty sad.

  • MrNewCastrati

    Just run them out of business, that’ll show ’em. Darn Christians anyway can’t be tolerant of sinful behaviour!

  • Amanda Allen

    but was they making friends or serving a customer? you are there ro drop the cake off and get yo bills paid.. they made what should of been an business situation an personal one… and that is not allowed. and if they good enough to buy yo stuff on the regular why is one event so different? technically your performing your job duties… just in a smallwrer setting… glad they was sued and lost. yo personal feelings shouldn’t be allowed in yo place of business.

  • Richard

    Gay activists aren’t about tolerance, equal rights, and freedom of expression. They are about suppressing anyone who disagrees with their chosen lifestyle. Those who disagree with homosexuality have now become the victims.

    But take heart. God is in control. God always rights what is wrong and evil. We just have to wait until he acts.

    God says, vengeance is mine. Let’s pray that God brings justice in this matter.

  • Anna Rose

    Homosexuals who sue businesses over this are only going to cause more problems for themselves than they would if they simply used another business. I think they are targeting Christian owned businesses simply to get attention. This is going to backfire on them and the attention they get won’t be what they want.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      How is it going to backfire? When?

      • Richard

        Most certainly when gays come face to face with God. God remembers all deeds and motives.

        • MisterPine

          Yeah, God’s really going to get in their faces about falling in love.

          • Richard

            God has already made it clear what he thinks of homosexuality. It’s no mystery. His position is completely opposed to your opinion.

          • MisterPine

            No, man speaking on behalf of God has made it clear what some of his species thinks of homosexuality. It has nothing whatsoever to do with God.

  • http://GREATSITE.COM/ John Lawton Jeffcoat III

    Can someone explain to me how it is possible that having ONE of several bakeries in town say that they do not wish to bake a cake for you, can cause you $135,000.00 in “emotional damages”??? Has the court system in Oregon lost its collective mind? These people suffered such emotional trauma that it would take a couple years’ of income to compensate them? They were THAT emotionally devastated by this? Are they attending psychiatric counseling regularly to get over this? Are they truly suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder because this ONE bakery declined to bake them a cake? By that line of reasoning, and by that same measuring standard, I am due at least $13,500 (one tenth of $135,000) in “emotional damages” from my local grocery store, because last Easter they only had Easter Bunny-Themed cakes, and no “Jesus Is Risen”-themed cakes… and I was very slightly emotionally upset by that… for about one minute. I mean, at the very least, I should be able to collect $1,350 (just one percent of $135,000), right? Our court system has drifted into INSANITY in the awards they dole-out for “emotional damages” caused by nothing more than societal disagreements that cause nothing more than a trivial and momentary inconvenience.

    • Asemodeus

      “Can someone explain to me how it is possible that having ONE of several
      bakeries in town say that they do not wish to bake a cake for you, can
      cause you $135,000.00 in “emotional damages”???”

      14th amendment.

      • Richard

        No, it’s called gay activism. Intolerance and suppression at its finest.

        • MisterPine

          That’s a very stupid thing to say.

          • Richard

            Do you call everything you disagree with stupid?

          • MisterPine

            Only when it is so completely contrary to simple basic human decency.

          • Richard

            Is it decent to support immoral behavior?

          • MisterPine

            You have a bizarre and outdated notion of what immoral behaviour is. There is nothing immoral about being homosexual.

      • Yvonne Celeste Lee

        The gaystapo in all its glory.

        • Bill

          it’s not fascism to expect you to follow the laws we are all obligated to follow

          • The Last Trump

            Remember that when we change them BACK again. 😉

          • Bill

            better people than you have tried and failed. what can you do that they didn’t?

    • Sherry

      It is against the law to discriminate. It is against the business terms of operation under that law and when establishing a precedence, this particular judge is allowed to set the standard. He may consider a lot of factors the case its self may have caused serious tension on the relationship of the the couple whether we believe that they should have a relationship or not. Discrimination is a serious matter and can get out of hand easily. I’m sure he wanted to nip this new problem in the bud before it gets crazy. Riots have broken out over much less.

  • Milli Mike

    When you open a Business. Youre supposed to be in it for the money, Money is supposed to be the bottom line that and the pride you get from owning your own Business…if they wanted to Live and preach the word of the Lord why not invest in their local church or something along those line…its a sad notion that Chruch and Business are too expensive to go hand and hand anymore…..but i guarantee you anything this couple is wishing right about now that ” We should have made the stupid cake,but NOOoooo instead we are in this HUGE MESS and looking at a HUGE fine over a Cake that would have cost no more than two hundred dollars and take no more than two days to make”….oh well live and learn…….(Life is tough all over,act accordingly)

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      What you do not seem to understand is that some people have priorities that are not money, but rather obedience and loyalty to their Creator. Money only speaks to those who idolize it. True believers in Jesus know their first loyalty is to Him, and they will not bow to the god of money.

      • Bill

        if you open a business or even get a job then money should be the only thing coercing you

        • Yvonne Celeste Lee

          Nonsense, a true follower of God will always put God’s Word ahead of financial gain. You cannot buy off true believers in Jesus.

          • Bill

            then maybe they should find a new job one that doesn’t require them to go against their beliefs

      • Milli Mike

        I’m pretty sure these people didn’t wake up everymorning to work their selves to death soley for the love of YHWH …and I’m also pretty sure none of their profits went to any real Christian charities …..I’m mean they are parents ,most people that own business use their profits to help befits their children, selves ..so the notion that they priorities the Lord before business is a fallacy . Secondly no one has the divine right to discriminate another fellow human because of race ,skin color,or sexual orientation …I’m from the brown side of Texas …and try dealing racist whites as a child everyday for twenty plus years…that’s why I can relate with this lesbian couple on a personal level just because I’ve been refused service simply because of the color of my skin…..and thirdly these people have no sense of customer service…at all it’s ,probably good that this Christian couple closed their store…..if they were real business men/ woman and wanted to refuse service ,they would have played it cool, heard what they wanted , pretend like it was a good idea and then when they asked when they needed it by come up with some BS LIKE ” awwww guys it look like we might be extremely booked (the next few days/weeks when ever they wanted the cake)….let me get your number and I’ll definitely get back to you with either a confirmation or a number to one of my collages
        Just in case we are little to busy…”…did they do that no,….what did they do….”oh I’m sorry I can’t serve gays or lesbians because God told me not to….so have a nice day and God bless…”….no business or common sense I mean you would think Indiana would at least have come up once …at least once …but oh well …we live in a world where there are consequences for every action we do in life and well ….sorry didn’t fix anything and well it’s gonna be a very expensive lesson but they are Christians after all so they should t be worried too much” The Lord shall provide “

      • Milli Mike

        I’m pretty sure these people didn’t wake up everymorning to work their selves to death soley for the love of YHWH …and I’m also pretty sure none of their profits went to any real Christian charities …..I’m mean they are parents ,most people that own business use their profits to help befits their children, selves ..so the notion that they priorities the Lord before business is a fallacy . Secondly no one has the divine right to discriminate another fellow human because of race ,skin color,or sexual orientation …I’m from the brown side of Texas …and try dealing racist whites as a child everyday for twenty plus years…that’s why I can relate with this lesbian couple on a personal level just because I’ve been refused service simply because of the color of my skin…..and thirdly these people have no sense of customer service…at all it’s ,probably good that this Christian couple closed their store…..if they were real business men/ woman and wanted to refuse service ,they would have played it cool, heard what they wanted , pretend like it was a good idea and then when they asked when they needed it by come up with some BS LIKE ” awwww guys it look like we might be extremely booked (the next few days/weeks when ever they wanted the cake)….let me get your number and I’ll definitely get back to you with either a confirmation or a number to one of my collages
        Just in case we are little to busy…”…did they do that no,….what did they do….”oh I’m sorry I can’t serve gays or lesbians because God told me not to….so have a nice day and God bless…”….no business or common sense I mean you would think Indiana would at least have come up once …at least once …but oh well …we live in a world where there are consequences for every action we do in life and well ….sorry didn’t fix anything and well it’s gonna be a very expensive lesson but they are Christians after all so they should t be worried too much” The Lord shall provide “

  • Richard

    If homosexuals believe in moral relativism, why is it they are upset when someone doesn’t serve them or disagrees with their lifestyle? Doesn’t that violate the very fabric of moral relativism? The moral code they hold near and dear? Wouldn’t that then be considered hypocritical?

  • irene humphreys

    the gays need there own bakery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      They gays have all kinds of bakeries. That is not the issue. The issue is they and their gaystapo friends are targeting Christian businesses to force them to accept their immoral lifestyle or pay the very high consequences. Because of those in power in this country now and all the judges they have placed in important positions, they know this is their moment to act. One problem: when you come against the Judge and Creator of the universe, it is not going to turn out well for you, sooner or later.

  • Wenddie Mikulcik

    Is there a fund set up for this family?

  • Deb Bunno

    It’s not difficult to find a non-Christian baker. They are doing this for the sole purpose of persecuting Christian beliefs. Have you seen all the video’s of a man asking a gay baker to make a traditional marriage cake? They won’t do it. Then there’s the baker in Colo. that the court said didn’t discriminate for refusing to make an anti-gay cake.

    • SpeakTruth

      How would one go about determining if the business was Christian owned? Even if you called and asked and were told it was Christian owned, most Christians would happily provide service to the LGBT community. They did not do this to persecute Christians, the business owner said they were regular customers, so the gay couple would have every reason to think they would be served.
      Here’s a thought: how about Christian business owners who don’t want to serve the LGBT community put a big sign on their door saying “We are Christians and will refuse service to the LGBT community and any other people who commit sins that we don’t like.” That way, customers will not be humiliated when they are refused service, the business owners will not have to feel awkward for refusing service, and the rest of us will know what kind of business it is and can decide to take our business elsewhere.
      This gay couple had every reason to believe the bakery would provide their wedding cake because that business advertizes wedding cakes for sale. When you walk in to any business establishment, you expect the business to provide a product or service in exchange for your money. If that business promotes and advertizes products and services for sale, it cannot refuse those products and services to to certain people because the owner disapproves of how they live their lives. Businesses are for-profit entities that must follow rules and regulations, and Christian owned businesses are no different.

      No business is required to provide a customer with something it doesn’t provide to everyone else. If that Colorado baker sold anti-gay cakes to everyone except the Christian, that would be discrimination. See how that works?

      • Reason2012

        So a black man that has no problem baking cakes for white people is “discriminating” if he does not bake a cake for a “the beliefs of black people are irrelevant” gathering? How so?

        • SpeakTruth

          “Black people are irrelevant gathering”? Seriously? I don’t know what that means, but a Jewish bakery would not be required to bake a cake with “I hate jews” on it.
          A Christian bakery would not be required to bake a cake with “F— Christians” on it.

          If a bakery offers wedding cakes for sale, they should sell wedding cakes to all of their customers. Most bakers do not know the nature of the relationships of the couples for whom they bake wedding cakes. They wouldn’t know if the couple was on their fourth marriage, or if they enjoy BDSM. But, they sell all of the couples wedding cakes. Selling a wedding cake in no way condones or supports the nature of the relationship of any of the couples the baker sells them to.

          • Reason2012

            Yes, they are a CHRISTIAN baker offering cakes for the ACT as defined in CHRISTIANITY to begin with. They will happily bake a cake for people that feel the need to announce they like homosexual behavior, but would deny baking a “polygamy ‘wedding’ cake” a “2 women 1 man ‘wedding’ cake”, a “same-gender ‘wedding’ cake”, no matter WHO asked. And people are waking up to the lie of “it’s discrimination!”

          • SpeakTruth

            If it walks like a duck…

      • Deb Bunno

        I support gay marriage, and happiness in general. I try to be unbiased. It seems to me that you’re saying whether or not someone makes a type of cake depends on if they make that type of cake for everyone. I don’t think these bakers made gay wedding cakes for anyone, but they do provide cakes that they to make for everyone. The problem is that not everyone agrees with their choice not to make a gay wedding cake. Some people don’t believe that everyone has the right to their own beliefs.

        • SpeakTruth

          I don’t think the couple asked for a “gay wedding cake”. They just wanted to purchase a wedding cake. I think these bakers advertised that they made wedding cakes.
          The problem is that not everyone thinks Christian business owners should be given special rights allowing them to refuse service to people who do not live by their own religious beliefs.

  • notso

    Would anyone be willing to join in to help the Kleins? I would like to see a GoFundMe account started for them or find the information to donate to them via PayPal. They are standing up for their convictions in the Lord, and I don’t think it would be too much to ask that all of us that are brothers and sisters in Christ help them.

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      Yes, they have already received the $150,000 set up by this fund. Any additional money should be sent to Franklin Graham’s Samaritan Purse, and it will be given to the family.

  • Richard Magnuson

    Extortion racket by the homosexual racket. And to think a judge would go along with this targeting of small helpless Christian businesses is beyond words. It is more than disgusting.

    • Bill

      they broke the law, and the judges job is to enforce that law

      • Richard Magnuson

        Yup, and the judge was just compelled by the law to smack them with this huge fine even when their business is gone. This law discriminates against Christians and other faiths who do not want to enable sin. The law was passed based on the liberals in the state house and the radical intolerant homosexual mafia and don’t forget the the liberal democratic judge which is the norm in Oregon. The business owners even suggested bakeries for these two but it did not fit their intent of targeting this bakery for extortion.

        • Bill

          the issue is the law not the number of bakeries available why can’t you see that? and these laws aren’t discriminatory. they apple to everyone equally

  • sclars

    If a christian orders anything anti-gay (cake with where to find a bible verse not the verse itself) from a gay bakery, and the baker turns him down. It is the christian that gets charged with a crime, not the baker. Muslims seem to be under a different set of rules also, they are free to do as they wish, any lawsuit would most likely be a hate crime.

    • Bill

      the issue there is what’s written on the cake not who was ordering it. it always amazes me hoe ignorant you pigs are of how these laws work

      • sclars

        There’s the name calling, if your comment amounts to repeating rhetoric denigrate the person who makes a valid point. If it isn’t who is ordering the cake, why are same sex wedding cakes only cakes and what was is on top of it immaterial, because all cakes are the same. But a christian who dares refuse to make a same sew wedding cake, that is contrary to his beliefs, is to be driven out of business, and personally bankrupted. Now it’s the topping of the cake that matters and cakes that a gay baker does not agree with, will not be made. That is not law that is an agenda. My question is; why don’t gay couples go to a gay baker and leave the non-gays alone? Is it the chance of big money or just harassment?

        • Bill

          they did find a different baker. but sweet cakes still broke the law , that’s the issue not the number of bakers available

          • sclars

            Sweet cakes practiced their first amendment rights, this gay couple set the baker up, with support I’m sure, think Crump getting the Browns to sue Ferguson (not the racial issue) the money opportunity. $135,000 reward. The list of aspects of suffering looks like they are applying for Social Security Disability, Sharpton could not have done better.

          • Bill

            set up or not they still broke the law and the first amendment doesn’t apply here

          • sclars

            Why does the first amendment not apply

          • Bill

            because it hasn’t been violated. they have the right to believe what they want but no religion is above the law. I suggest you look up Newman v. Piggie Park Enterprises, Inc.

          • sclars

            They were not allowed to follow their conscience, therefor their rights were violated. The Hobby Lobby case proved that in the supreme court. Why are the gay and muslim bakers allowed to say no to cakes they disagree with, but the christian bakers sued?

          • Bill

            because in those cases the issue was what was written on the cake not who was ordering it and again hobby lobby doesn’t apply

          • sclars

            Newman vs Piggy Park has nothing to do with this case it was a civil rights case (refusal to sell to blacks). This case is not a civil rights case, they would have sold the couple anything in the store, but same sex weddings were against their beliefs. What is written on the cake makes no difference, it is their refusal to make the cake. Do you really think a muslim bakery will make a same sex wedding cake? Do you think a judge would dare require them to? It is a matter of finding a judge vindictive enough to bully someone around, not the law.

          • Bill

            you aren’t every smart are you? their beliefs are irrelevant. and it doesn’t matter if they did business with gay couples before they still broke the law and must be punished. if you don’t like the way this work you can leave.

          • sclars

            So you are saying the first amendment is irrelevant. Have you redefined the freedom of religion? Have you changed religion from a belief but a building? At some point you are going to have to accept the fact that the unintended consequence of being able to sue a christian for his beliefs (not making a [gay themed] same sex wedding cake) leaves gays open to be sued for their beliefs (not making a [christian themed] traditional wedding cake). You can’t have it one way and not the other.

          • Bill

            I haven’t. but the courts have ruled that freedom of religion like everything else has limits

          • sclars

            Undue punishment is not legal, and personal bankruptcy, after a business has been bankrupted, to award $135,000 to an undamaged couple is a gay judge attempting to make a name for himself.

          • Bill

            no it’s a judge enforcing the law which is what he’s required to do. and what is your evidence that he’s gay?

          • sclars

            He is awarding the maximum to a list of 90 damages, of being told no, that include excessive sleep, insomnia, lack of sleep, hurt, horror, worried the Kleins will invade their home and cover them with frosting, unhappiness, and wounded instead of sending them to a mental heath facility for evaluation and help. In other words rewarding fraud to a gay couple with out proof.

          • Bill

            they admitted they discriminated and have been found guilty by the court. no they must face the consequences. if they can’t handle it then it’s their own damn fault

          • sclars

            They did not discriminate if a non-gay walked in and ordered the same cake, as a gift to the couple, the non-gay would have been told the same thing. Judge Alan McCallough has actually charged them with discriminating against a cake and rewarded a couple with unsubstantiated emotional suffering, not physical or monetary damages. I would say this proves gays have a mental disease, if they agree that being told, “no I do not agree with you”, can cause $135,000 worth of emotional damage,

          • Bill

            but that’s not what happened is it. a gay couples walked in and asked for a cake for their wedding, if they they had been straight they would of gotten it no problem. so the owners discriminated against the couple because of their sexual orientation

          • sclars

            That is NOT true, if a straight person walked in and wanted a same sex wedding cake, he or she would have been denied also. It was the cake that was the problem not the purchaser. The daft judge associated the cake with the couple, he made an error. The gays know it will not stand up to an appeal, andlike any inept lawyer who uses asset forfeiture, are trying to keep any and all funding from the Kleins.

          • Bill

            there’s no such thing as a straight wedding cake or a gay wedding cake. it’s just a cake. and it will stand up because it is a clear example of discrimination

          • sclars

            You just talked yourself into a circle. if it is just a cake (topping irrelevant), then the bible verse is just a cake (topping irrelevant), and the gay baker can also be sued for discrimination. It has to apply to every body equally or it is invalid. Time will tell if it stands, i’m sure the Kleins will find the funding if an appeal is needed. even with gofundit discriminating against them

          • Bill

            the court is the one who makes that discrimination. if ask for a cake that’s one their menu then they cannot turn you away but if you ask for something that has an offensive message on it they can turn you away

          • sclars

            So a same sex wedding cake, one with 2 names of the same sex, is the same as a tradition wedding cake, one with a name of each sex, and can not legally be offensive to any one. But a sheet cake is not a sheet cake, if a bible with where to find a verse is on it, and is offensive. What part of this is offensive, the only word is the name of the bible book. How can a judge in our judicial system find a bible offensive when so many are depicted in our Supreme Court building.

          • Bill

            yep that’s how it works, if you don’t like it,tough

          • sclars

            Are you taking notes on the rioting, entitlements are not enough civil rights for the minorities, they always want more, out of the pockets of those with a work ethic. The way I see it, this country was founded on equality and god given rights. If you don’t have the self-control to respect the rights of others, like millions do, you have a mental disease or deficiency..

  • Nina Michelle

    They will just start a GoFundMe account and become millionaires like the pizza people. You all should deny a gay person something and do the same thing. It will make you all bad examples of Christians but you will be rich bad examples. You don’t care what we think of your behavior so its a total win/win for you…. smh

    • Yvonne Celeste Lee

      YES! And may their God bless them and flourish them for all they have had to endure at the gaystapo’s hands.

      • Nina Michelle

        You all are helping me practice the love one another lesson which Jesus came to teach us. Thank you. May you all find and give the love in which Christ taught us was ours, from Him and from each other.

      • Nina Michelle

        Not sure where my reply went but again, I just want to thank all of you for helping me continue to practice the one commandment Jesus’ Father sent with His Son, to further guide all of us home. Love one another. Which I trust is true no matter whether you cling to the Old Testament or not. We will all be together in paradise one day.

  • dave_aka_lambsev

    I have come to the conclusion that I can not hold too tightly to my belief that craftsmen and service vendors should have the right to refuse this who would hire them. Baking a cake and receiving payment for it is not a religious statement. It is the provision of a product. If it is a wedding cake, how many not qualified by Jesus teachings on divorce remarry every week? How many of those folks are refused cakes by christian bakers? How many are just not even believers and marry for the wrong reasons and have their wedding cakes provided to them by christian bakers… no questions asked. Bakers are not marriage counselors.

    Everyone already knows that homosexuality is a sin, even and especially homosexuals who have to work so hard to persuade us and themselves it is not a sin. A somewhat well known former female impersonator who received christ said that the dirty little secret among homosexuals is that they are ALL VERY UNHAPPY PEOPLE.

    When Jesus walked in flesh among men, he taught them to love their enemies, to do good to them that persecute them and despitefully use them. Some were being despitefully used by Roman soldiers who impressed then into involuntary service. Jesus said if they force you to carry their burden one mile, carry it two.

    In the USA we have laws that forbid that sort of unwarranted demand upon citizens.

    But what might happen if a christian baker “turned the tables” and went the extra mile… by offering wedding cakes at half price to gay couples. Gays would flock to that store. What if when they got there it was explained that to receive the discount they must spend 15 (30?) minutes with a believer who would walk them through the scriptures which condemn homosexuality and define marriage and divorce?

    I wonder if refusing to bake a cake really preaches the gospel. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding when they ran out. They must been guzzling the stuff. Why did Jesus help them have MORE to drink? Wasn’t that wrong, immoral, and approval of drunkenness? But there was more to that than a cake wasn’t there? Or was there? Even if there was what would Jesus do today? He might write something on the cake… and say “Go and sin no more…” “… lest a worse thing happen to you.”

  • DTT

    Let the court issue anything it wants. In a matter of minutes an account will be set up and this family will have more than enough money to pay a fine, move if they like where those that don’t agree with their beliefs will not be in attendance or at best won’t know who they are, and they can go on with their lives as they see fit. The way of the world now……..it’s sad and destructive.

  • Henry GeGe

    I’m going to be in the minority here but good and I’m glad they are being fined. Wish it wasn’t 100k plus (little extreme) but we live in the US and not Nazi Germany or Syria. Pretty sure if “God” did not want same sex people to marry than he will not recognize it, and doesn’t need some small bakery to pass his word. Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you reference your reasons. Just a shame this bakery had no problem taking the gay couples money earlier…

    • Reason2012

      So a black man that has no problem baking cakes for white people is “discriminating” if he does not bake a cake for a “the beliefs of black people are irrelevant” gathering? How so?

      • Bill

        no the same and you know it

        • Reason2012

          Hello. Prove it’s not the same.

          • Bill

            well for starters political beliefs aren’t protected

          • Reason2012

            It’s not a political belief. Try again.

          • Bill

            fine. peoples opinion of different races aren’t protected.

          • Reason2012

            Which is why a black man cannot be forced to bake a cake for a “the beliefs of black men are irrelevant” and Christians cannot be forced to bake a cake for what also amounts to “the beliefs of Christians do not matter” gathering: which would be a polygamous “wedding”, or 1 man and 2 woman “wedding”, or a same-gender “wedding”.

          • Bill

            no. that’s not what a gay wedding is at all. it’s just a wedding

          • Reason2012

            It’s a sinful act to a Christian and not a marriage in the least. So while the have no problem baking those who profess homosexuality a cake, to make Christians instead promote sinful acts like polygamous wedding, three men, or same-gender “wedding” is something they cannot do.

          • Bill

            if they sell wedding cakes then they sell them to anyone who can afford them, that’s what they agreed to when they open their shop

          • Reason2012

            No, they never agreed to promote anti-Christian ACTS.

          • Bill

            they agreed to follow all the law and that includes anti-discrimination laws. it doesn’t matter how you feel or what your religion says

  • Gwendolyn Williams

    all the gay couple had to do was go find another bakery that would make them a cake they didn’t have to try and destroy these peoples lives what is there only one bakery shop in the whole town

    • Reason2012

      When the goal IS to destroy Christianity and criminalize not violating it in any way they can, finding such bakers is the whole point. And it all started by them being given homosexual marriage by a homosexual activists judge, violating the will of the people. “How will it affect you?!” they lied..

    • SpeakTruth

      All the black people needed to do was to just eat at restaurants for their kind.

    • Bill

      they did but that doesn’t change the fact that the baker broke the law

  • Reason2012

    So not baking a cake to support an ACT you disagree with is the most heinous of crimes, but ruining a couple’s lives, making death threats, posting_porn online to mock them and ruining their business is a sign of heroism.

  • Reason2012

    A black man who has no problem serving white people cannot be forced to use his business to instead cater the act of a “the beliefs of black people do not matter” gathering.

    Likewise a Christian who has no problem serving those who currently like homosexual behavior cannot be forced to use his business to instead cater any sinful acts, like gatherings that are celebrating abortion, a polygamy wedding, or a same-gender wedding, to name a few.

    • Bill

      nope. the law say you can’t discriminate because of someones orientation and that apply to everything. if you offer a product then you offer it to everyone no matter what

      • Reason2012

        They’d deny such a product to ANYONE. A black man would deny baking a cake for a “the beliefs of black people are meaningless” gathering no matter how asked for it.

        • Bill

          here’s how it works. if you sell wedding cakes then you sell them to anyone who can afford them no matter who they are or what they’re using it for. that’s the law learn to live with it

          • Reason2012

            No, it’s a Christian baker hence they are selling Christian wedding cakes. They would not sell anyone a “1 man 2 woman ‘wedding’ cake” or “3 men ‘wedding’ cake” or “same-gender ‘wedding’ cake” no matter WHO asked for it.

            And no one can be forced to support an ACT that goes against them with their business. Hence A black man who has no problem serving white people cannot be forced to use his business to instead cater the act of a “the beliefs of black people do not matter” gathering.

            Likewise a Christian who has no problem serving those who currently like homosexual behavior cannot be forced to use his business to instead cater any sinful acts, like gatherings that are celebrating abortion, a polygamy wedding, or a same-gender wedding, to name a few.

          • Bill

            a cake is a cake. it’s has no religion. and the law says you cannot turn someone away because of their sexual orientation no matter what your religion says. so you can either follow the law or find a new job

          • Reason2012

            You’re right – a cake is just a cake. But when they make a black person bake a cake for the act of a “the beliefs of black people do not matter” gathering, it now becomes more than a cake. Only a bigot would seek out black people to bake such cakes then tell them “follow the law or go find a new job”.

          • Bill

            if those opinions were protected then yes i would say that.

          • Reason2012

            And yes it would be bigotry and racism. And right now it’s bigotry for homosexual activists to seek out Christian bakers, knowing the result, then seeking to get criminal charges against them.

          • Bill

            the only thing they seek out is a bakery. no one care what the persons religion is, all they care about is that they do their job well

          • Reason2012

            Sure they care what it is – they make a point of criminalizing them.
            They do not go after muslim bakers who will not bake them a cake either, which exposes the lie that they do not care what their religion is.

          • Bill

            they didn’t go after anyone. they walked into a bakery and were denied because of their orientation.

  • Burt

    Do you really want to buy a cake from someone that doesnt want to make it for you. Now think about that.

    • Bill

      what can they do?

      • Burt

        Well years ago I was told of a guy that used to slide a piece of chicken under his foot deep fry it and give it to people that were azzes at the drive in window.

        • Bill

          you do know that’s it’s federal crime to tamper with food. if you do that and they find out you’ll get a lot worse than a fine

          • Burt

            Never did It I have a conscious believe it or not. Moral of the story is dont piss off the people at the drive through.

          • Bill

            if they never knew and had no negative consequence from it then how was it a punishment? personally if got food poisoning from any restortan I would report it

  • SAMUEL PERKINS

    SATAN AND HIS HELPERS ARE CONSTANTLY AT WORK,GOOD AND EVIL CAN NOT COEXIST IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.THE SITUATION IN YOUR STATE IS ANOTHER SIGN THAT EVIL IS AT YOUR DOOR AS IT WAS IN SODOM AND GOMORRAH,AND THE ENDING IS BAD.ALMIGHTY GOD IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION AND THAT’S WHAT THAT LIFESTYLE IS ALL ABOUT,THE JUDGES AND POLITICIANS IS ALLOWING EVIL TO LINGER AROUND YOUR DOOR AND EVENTUALLY IT’S GOING TO RULE.SO THE DEVIL IS CHANGING GOD’S LAWS AND WANT THE CHILDREN OF GOD TO ACCEPT THAT,IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE AND THE LEADERS WHO CONTINUE TO CONDONE IS EVIL WILL PAY THE PRICE,BECAUSE YOU AINT FIGHTING GOD’S CHILDREN,YOUR’E LITERALLY TRYING TO FIGHT GOD,AND I DON’T THINK YOUR ARM IS LONG ENOUGH TO FIGHT GOD.IT’S IN GOD’S LAWS/BIBLE THAT THIS BEHAVIOR IS UNACCEPTABLE AND REALLY THE PUNISHMENT FOR THAT IS DEATH,BUT INSTEAD THE JUDGES AND LEADERS REWARD THE SINNERS WITH A CASH REWARD,THAT LIFESTYLE DOESN’T HAVE RIGHTS,BECAUSE EVERYTHING ABOUT IT CAUSES SIN IN THE WORLD ,NOT ONLY IN THIS GENERATION BUT GENERATIONS TO COME,WE GOING TO EITHER GET IT RIGHT OR GOD IS GOING TO GET IT RIGHT.WE CAN NOT BLAME ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS DOWN HERE ON GOD,SO IT’S OUR RESPONSIBILITIES TO GET RIGHT AND TIME IS COMING THAT GOD WILL GET IT RIGHT.THE SINNERS DON’T HAVE KNOW RIGHTS WHEN THEY ARE BREAKING GODS COMMANDMENTS,THE SIN THAT’S BEING COMMITTED IS MOCKING GOD,GOD SAID TO BE FRUITFUL ON THE EARTH,LIVING IN THE SIN IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO BE FRUITFUL AND UNJUSTIFIABLE.SO TO THE CHRISTIAN COUPLE PUT YOUR ARMOR OF GOD ON AND KEEP YOUR FAITH IN GOD,MY GOD DIDN’T SUPPLY ADAM WITH NOTHING WHEN HE CREATED HIM,ALL HE ASK ADAM TO DO IS TO BELIEVE IN HIM AND TO ACTIVATE HIS FAITH,THAT’S ALL GOD IS TELLING ALL HIS CHILDREN IS TO BELIEVE IN HIM AND HE WILL DO THE REST,THAT’S WHY IT’S SO IMPORTANT TO BELIEVE IN THE CREATOR,ALMIGHTY GOD,BECAUSE HE’S THERE TO FIGHT THE EVIL YOU CAN NOT SEE.THOSE SAME TWO SINNERS THAT WON THOSE PENNIES IS THE SAME TWO THAT’S GOING TO BE FEELING LIKE JUDAS WHEN HE BETRAYED JESUS,JUDAS COME TO REALIZE THAT HE DIDN’T WANT THAT MONEY AFTER ALL AND THAT’S HOW THEY IS GOING TO FEEL WHEN GOD FIGHT OUR BATTLES AGAINST THE SINNERS OF HIS COMMANDMENTS.SO KEEP YOUR FAITH IN,GOD.

  • Mom 2 Many

    I don’t understand WHY is it so hard for christians to understand that atheists do not hate them, they just simply do not agree or condone the lifestyle they choose to be in.

  • wayne8734

    This is wrong,they are not gay haters,they had many gay customers.But once it went from being a customer to making a wedding cake then they were asked to condone it and that was against their Christian beliefs.Gay marriage right or wrong is not the issue here,it’s can one be forced to go against their religion.This couple could have easily went to another shop but I’m sure this was a set up,the LGBT was wanting to make this bakery an example.It is ridiculous to claim over 100 examples of suffering they experienced because of the bakery’s refusal,it’s a mockery of our justice system!!!! Anyone else would had a few choice words for the bakery then went to another bakery, never giving it another thought! A small fine should have been the most that the bakery received, if anything.Our country is sick and our court system broken when this is called justice.

  • Little Wing

    Pay up and stop being assholes. Discrimination is illegal.

  • http://googlelove.org/ MizKrys

    People get it through your thick heads! We, Christians do not hate gays and lesbians and anyone else. We are simply giving you the Word! God doesn’t want you to taste second death! As He doesn’t want any of us to perish. We have found our way back to Him and we want you to know the glory of God here on earth as well. If we hated you, then we would just let you die but you see we can’t! We know how it is to live away from God and now that we know the truth, we would love it if you too would know it. What are you so afraid of? He died for all, not just for certain people!

  • Diana

    Just think if they didn’t ask the couples names. They would have just made the cake and be done with it. I don’t need to know the names of all my customers. I just sell my stuff and get my money and they get their products. No need to make it a religious or a gay thing.

  • Dominique Vivian

    Whether you Christians like it or not you need to grow up and live in the real world. God does the judging you are too small and should be more humble and not do judging for him. Are you God? No I didn’t think so. Now this is discrimination right up there with segregation and these people need to be punished. They need to grow up. I would love to do the same thing to members of the KKK and make them PAY. Now do you understand who the sinner is? It’s YOU for being DISCRIMINATORY. YOU’RE JUST LIKE THE KKK. And there are members of the KKK who have black friends… probably because the black people are trying to convert them to normalcy. You can exist and be like the KKK and be discriminatory but no one is going to want to help you people. No one. That is not okay. You need to grow up. Disgusting…

    • Monika Grabowska

      Shut up! People have the right to follow their religion. That’s it! End of discussion!

      • Bill

        no if an aspect of their religion violates the law

  • Monika Grabowska

    How pathetic!!!! Discrimination against a religion? NO! Discrimination against a race? NO! Discrimination against a disability? NO! They could not take part because of their religion against same sex relationships! It is their right to follow their religion! Those two losers need to suck it up and go to another bakery! I have nothing against gay people, except for crap like this. You expect people to respect your choice in who you lay down with but you can’t respect their religion?! Are you f’ng kidding me?

  • King-Yat Yau

    These Homosexual issues are really getting out of hand. The judge will probably say, “You’re Christians. You deserve that punishment.”

  • sclars

    What needs to happen is someone who professes to be a christian and is a large enough but head needs to set up a gay baker, get denied, and sue the panties off them. The problem might be finding a judge that is not gay.

    • Bill

      that’s already been tried and it didn’t work mostly because you people don’t understand how anti-discrimination laws work

      • sclars

        Anti- discrimination laws do not trump the first amendment. A judge issuing a verdict that does put the anti-discrimination law above the first amendment is wrong, and is counting on nobody spending the money it takes to correct him. Of the state laws, making marriage between a man and a woman that have been overturned, the same Federal judge has ruled in 80 % of them. The problem is, the Federal government has no jurisdiction on marriage, our constitution left it to the states.

        • Bill

          actually they do. read up on the court cases if you doubt me

          • sclars

            They can not take away your right to follow your religious conscience, the Hobby Lobby case in the Supreme court proved that.

          • Bill

            hobby lobby doesn’t apply here

          • sclars

            It does apply they are both infringements on the first amendment. The only difference is which court system they’re in.

          • Bill

            nope. the hobby lobby case had nothing to do with the first amendment

          • sclars

            ? Don’t know where you came up with that opinion, but it was all about abortion. The owners equated abortion to murder, and murder clashed with their religious beliefs (conscience).

          • Bill

            and? this case a hobby lobby still have no connection and if you read case you would know that the decision wasn’t based on the first amendment

          • sclars

            Why do you think they challenged the abortion drug mandate, it’s cost? Don’t play the idiot. It isn’t mandatory be a christian to work for them, but their business is based on christian values.

          • Bill

            there’s no such thing as a Christan business, all businesses are secular and if you can’t accept that then you should leave

          • sclars

            You didn’t answer my question, all you did was deny that a business can be based on christian values. Why should I leave, have you ever been in a christian book store? Is it secular? What happens if they sell coffee and snacks are they then secular? The problem is too many people only inherit greed and self, and don’t have a clue how a christian thinks. Charity is not a tax deduction

          • Bill

            yes. it provide religious material but it is still subject to secular laws.

          • sclars

            Face the facts, christian stores do exist, do not have to provide non-christian merchandise, and are operating within the law.

          • Bill

            all are subject to secular laws no matter what the owners religion is so all stores are secular

          • sclars

            That is the same as saying every living thing is a cell

          • Bill

            and your point?

  • John

    Whatever happened to “the right to refuse service” ??

    • Bill

      you lost it in 1964

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    It’s so heart-breaking sad to see the Americans facing religious persecutions in America. The government should resign over this abuse or stop persecuting the Christians. America is a nation of religious liberty. Baking for gay wedding violates both the Word of God and human conscience.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    America has gone insane on this matter. Why don’t the unbelieving Americans understand that doing anything to celebrate homosexuality is a sin against God? State must not put the colored people and willfully immoral people together in the same category and force the people to sin.

    • Bill

      it’s not that we don’t understand it’s that we don’t care. the law is the law and we are all obligated to follow it no matter what we believe

      • Richard

        The laws of the land aren’t going to save you from eternal despair. Homosexuality is a sin against God. He is the final authority, not man. So, celebrate now because eternity is a very long time.

        • Bill

          I don’t care what you or your god thinks, you can either follow the law or you can leave,it’s your choice

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        No, you are wrong. Kill conscience to obey the law? Nazi Germany did just that. Enough of it. Americans are NOT slaves to evil laws. If the law is wrong, then the law needs to be changed – the American way.

        • Bill

          people tried to change these law ad they failed so now you must follow them no matter what you think

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No. Obey God rather than lawless men.

          • Bill

            obey the law or leave those are your only options

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Sure, if the law is good and right. American Founding Fathers created the USA to rescue people from your types of tyrants and their lawless sheeple. Lawless people should leave the USA.

          • Bill

            that’s not up for you to decide. you must follow all the laws no matter how you feel about them

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Wrong laws must be corrected by the Church.

          • Bill

            no religion has any authority in America, we are a secular nation

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            America has no morality apart from Christianity. Secular authority has no rights to mess with Christian religious people’s conscience. That’s what secularism means in the Constitution.

          • Bill

            Christians must follow the secular laws of this country no matter what they think

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Law-breaking judges and their followers must be ousted.

          • Bill

            what the judges are doing is perfectly legal and constitutional

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, the US Constitution and US legality guarantee everyone’s religious freedom foremost. You guys don’t belong to USA.

          • Bill

            and you still have it. no religion is above the law

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No US law is above religious liberty according to its own constitution.

          • Bill

            religious liberty just means you have the right to believe what you want and worship how you want but that doesn’t mean you can use it to ignore the law

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, stop joking. Religious liberty means the rights to reject serving the blasphemers( gay weddings) and to proclaim homosexuality as sin under the broad daylight.

          • Bill

            no it doesn’t. the supreme court already ruled that religion cannot be used to ignore the law.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Courts and laws are not above the liberty according to the Constitution.

          • Bill

            court job is to determine if law conflict with the Constitution. if something is ruled constitutional then it is no matter what you think.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            This court ruling is wrong and against the Constitution.

          • Bill

            your opinions don’t change reality

          • Kara Connor

            Quite agree. Judge Roy Moore should be removed as soon as possible for instructing county clerks to disobey a federal court ruling.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, he is one of the few good men left in the USA. I meant the lawless Sodomy-supporting judges of yours. You godless secular Americans should have some normality lest your nation goes down to a pit. Stop bullying Christians. The Founding Fathers never meant to create a nation for Sodomic bullies to prosper but for good genuine Christians to live happily.

          • Kara Connor

            So you support judges who refuse to obey the law, and instruct others to do so? And break their oaths of office. America is a nation of secular law. Try Iran if you like theocracies.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            American laws are based on the Judeo-Christian values. Without Christianity, America has no laws. It’s the liberals who are breaking the law. The secular atheistic Americans should immigrate to North Korea and leave Christians alone.

          • Kara Connor

            Do point to that in the Constitution. Meanwhile I’ll cite the unanimously-passed Treaty of Tripoli: “As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion”.
            Your god means nothing to civil law, just as Sharia means nothing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Human rights, liberty, and justice are all exclusively Judeo-Christian values. When yesteryears’ Americans said “secular,” it only meant not-bound-by-one-denomination-like-in-Europe, and they never meant your Sodomic blasphemous chaotic amorality. The American values, mottos, documents, monuments, and national athems have all too Biblical values. You secular Americans are illiterate on the Holy Bible and do not know how much Americans stole from the Holy Bible and the Christian British.

          • Kara Connor

            Actually English Common Law and the Magna Carta were influential, as was the Napoleonic code. However, you continue to be unable to cite anything in the Constitution which backs up your claim. How frustrating for you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Constitution guarantees religious freedom and you Sodomites are all law-breakers according to your Constitution. Cite where it allows forcing of the practice of Sodomy like you and your judges are doing.

          • Deina

            So you think the only reason we have laws against murder, theft, perjury, robbery, failure to stop at a traffic signal, and everything else is because the Bible said they were wrong?

            Such childlike innocence.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Most civilizations share the same common sense, but only the Christendom has the complex system of truth-questing, human rights, liberty, justice FOR ALL, and literacy FOR ALL, which are exclusively Judeo-Christian values. The USA is only one of the youngest in the Christendom. You guys need to know where your ancestors learned stuff from, who would have stayed just illiterate and primitive if the Christian Church did not educate them.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s your activist liberal judges and you who are breaking the law.

          • Bill

            and what laws are those?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Religious liberty in the US Constitution.

          • Bill

            religious liberty give you the right to worship not ignore the law

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            US Constitution prohibits government bodies to dictate religious people’s conscience and freedom. You are at wrong side.

          • Bill

            people still have to follow the law no matter what their religion

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            It’s this judge who is breaking the law. You just want to support Sodomy.

          • Bill

            the judge hasn’t broken anything . the SCOTUS has ruled that anti-discrimination laws are constitutional and that you cannot use religion to ignore them.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Aniti-discrimination laws should not cancel the people’s liberty. Application has been wrong. America’s fault is putting the colored people and sexually immoral people in the same category. It’s so disgusting racist. You guys need a fix.

          • Bill

            how is it racist? they’re both immutable characteristic that have been used to justify discrimination and abuse.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The US laws treat the colored people together with sexually immoral people. That’s racist. Racism must be stopped.

          • Bill

            How? your opinion what is or isn’t moral is irrelevant as is your god

  • Derringer Duo

    Somebody should tell them to start up a GoFundMe or Indiegogo fund. I would personally donate a handsome sum to them if they get fined. I’m tired of this Godless minority throwing their weight around and bullying Christians for their beliefs, all while talking about tolerance. The gay agenda forces itself into our churches, into our businesses and into our homes. And I don’t have any problem with gay people, but when you start forcing me to act according to your ideology, now we have a problem.

    It’s time for Christians to stand up to this. In the early church, Christians gave everything into one pot so that all had enough. I say we need to use these crowdfunding sites to take care of each other. So that any Christian business targeted by these bullies who flaunt their private affairs in public and try to destroy anyone who disagrees, will know they can count on fellow believers to help them stay afloat.

    Memories Pizza in Indiana are now millionaires. And so it should be for any Christian who loses much to stand for Christ. What they lose should be returned to them many times over in this world and the next.

    • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

      Your issue is not with “this Godless minority throwing their weight around and bullying Christians for their beliefs, all while talking about tolerance” but with having the privileges your religion has taken for granted while it could, to engage in bigotry and assault because your primitive god thingies are portrayed as being vicious bigots (which does much to explains the violent history of the Abrahamic beliefs, particularly to others similar to themselves).

      People today are much better than these historical imaginary god thingies and their delusional followers. We need to be. The world is much more dangerous and there is an unsustainable mass of people living in closer proximity to one another in a rapidly deteriorating biosphere adding new threats and challenges our ancestors did not have to face. To survive this we have to grow up and learn tolerance. Some people are slow learners, but that does not mean that we have to tolerate bigotry or violence to others, no matter how much they may be disagreed with. That goes for delusional christers as much as for anyone else. Behave nicely to your neighbours, don’t threaten them, even verbally, and obey the law, and nobody will even notice you exist, even if you live in interesting times.

      Keep your bizarre beliefs to yourself, and don’t rely on them to excuse the violation of the rights of others and the “Godless minority” will celebrate the fact that the law protects you as it does everyone else. While the “Godless minority” in the US has never “throw[n] their weight around and bull[ied]” religiots, they do object to the “god riddled minority” throwing their weight around and bullying” others. And, as the above story shows, they do have the law on their side. There is no constitutionally protected right to allow bigots to prejudice others. Deal with it, or having your very own torture loving horned god thingies and a hell, why not visit?

      • Derringer Duo

        YOU are the exact thing I’m talking about. You come to a CHRISTIAN website, where CHRISTIANS are talking amongst themselves, and then tell them to keep their “bizarre beliefs” to themselves. Well, that’s what we’re doing. Talking about our beliefs amongst ourselves.

        What are YOU doing? The easy answer is “Trolling”. Why else would someone as anti-God as you be on a CHRISTIAN website? The more accurate answer is what I said previously: YOU come in to our churches, our business, our homes and attempt to bully and malign us.

        You’re saying it doesn’t happen, WHILE YOU ARE DOING IT. And it’s what your kind does. The spirit within you is at enmity with God. And so while you could’ve just gone on to wherever you were going, that devil spirit made you come in to this place to antagonize Christians. It’s not new. It’s been done for thousands of years. And you know what?

        We just keep growing. And do you know why? Because that “fictional” God makes sure it is so.

        But, it’s funny. I was just talking about this earlier. You run your mouth about Christians all being bigots and hating gays. Nobody cares enough about you to hate you. We just don’t agree with you. But, you try and take “disagree” and turn it into “hate”.
        And if “disagreeing” with someone is the definition of “hate”, then everybody hates everybody.

        The majority of charity work is done by Christians. Helping you gays, and atheists, muslims, etc…without any question of what you believe in. The Christian denomination is the ONLY MAJOR RELIGION IN THE WORLD, that has churches dedicated to gay and whole denominations like the Presbyterians twisting the Bible to accomodate you. There are gay Christian singers like Tonex, Donnie McClurkin and Jennifer Knapp with million of Christian fans.

        And in spite of this, you think we “hate” you. Even though millions of us have gay relatives and friends.

        The fact that this ridiculous narrative even works is a joke. Tolerate you? Really? No one even cares about YOU personally as a human being. This whole conversation is about sex. You’re not even gay if you don’t like the same sex. No matter how flamboyant or feminine you may be. “Gay” is all down to same sex attraction. And yet, you managed to make it seem like disagreeing with your attractions means we care about and hate you as a person. Like all you are, are mindless sex bots defined by nothing else but your gayness.

        It’s ridiculous. Nobody hates you. And believe me, if this were medieval times, and Christians actually DID hate you? You wouldn’t be able to live in this country. There are way more of us than there are of you. You talk about intolerance? If we didn’t tolerate you for all these years, there would BE no “Gay Community”. You’d be scared for your lives and freedoms like gays around the world in the Middle East, Asia and Russia.

        You know…those real tolerant Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist and Atheist nations you never go after. Because the devil spirit in you targets the Truth and those who carry it. You can’t help yourself. I’m betting you haven’t been to a Muslim or Scientologist site to talk this trash.

        You scared? Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of non-God believers who don’t agree with homosexuality, either.

        • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

          You seem to be under a number of misapprehensions.

          One is that I am not gay. I’m a liberal humanist. That means that I cherish independent thinking, value liberty, cherish equality and think that all humans are valuable and deserve to be treated well. Including the entire GSD community. Your values are clear from your noxious little diatribe.

          Another is that this site is not only only the Internet, published to an International audience where, even if you lump them all together (which would likely lead to an explosion), cristers are in the minority, but uses Disqus for its BBS and encourages cross posting and sharing of its articles, to drum up cpm revenues for its operators. Disqus provides a discussion forum for everyone. not just for religiots.

          Then too, atheists do not “hate god thingies” – nobody can hate an imaginary thing – and while some atheists might dislike smarmy mouthed, bigoted, hypocritical, shifty-eyed people, some less fervid religiots probably do too. These are good things to dislike even if you, for self-interested reasons, might disagree.

          While I understand why you wish religion were growing, as in the USA, where religious affiliation is following European trends, being rejected by increasing numbers of younger people, the fastest growing response to questions about religious affiliation worldwide is “none”.

          Your delusions seem manifold. Studies show that just as atheists tend to be younger, smarter and better educated, atheists are also much more likely to be charitable to unaffiliated causes than christers.

          I stopped reading your prejudicial nonsense when you started mouthing threats, “And believe me, if this were medieval times, and Christians actually DID hate you? You wouldn’t be able to live in this country. There are way more of us than there are of you.” Very pretty. You exemplify your religion perfectly.

          • Weasel1886

            You are gay, and you’re stupid.

          • Derringer Duo

            A. There are plenty of sites that use Disqus. Therefore, you could’ve gone to any other site using Disqus. You didn’t have to come here. And you know you didn’t have to come here. You came here because you want to force your beliefs on others through ridicule. If you’re so intelligent, you’d think by now, your kind would’ve learned that, that never works.

            B. Atheism is not the fastest growing trend amongst the youth when it comes to religion choices. It’s Islam. The second fastest growing religion is Christianity. The Pew Research center JUST released a study, which you can find on CNN, that states that every major religion in slated to GROW in the next couple of decades. Christianity, which just passed the 2 billion mark, is slated to be nearly 3 billion by 2050.

            That’s the thing about you Atheists. You pop off at the mouth and you know nothing. For example: Let me ask you a question and see if you can answer it without the use of Google or Wikipedia. The Law of Conservation of Mass, the Law of Conservation of Energy, and the Three Laws of Thermodynamics. The lack of a perfect vacuum in nature. These are YOUR scientific laws that govern the universe. You talk so much about “How do you prove God made the Universe.” Well, tell me, how do you explain how the Universe came into existence without violating all of your laws?

            Do you even know what those laws are? I mean, clearly, you’re smarter than all of the 6 billion people who believe in a God. You can tell me how 24 billion parsecs of universe came from nothing and pushed out with no source of force in a perfect vacuum that science says can’t exist. And then, when you come up with an answer, I want you to tell me how it works with the existence of the Hercules Corona-Borealis Great Wall. You know, the structure that breaks the End of Greatness. Come on, man, you’re smarter than me. You should know.

            C. If you’re going to lie, try doing it with someone who doesn’t actually like studying about various topics. Atheists make up 6% of the US population, to Christianity’s 76%. They would be broke trying to keep up with Christian giving. At the very least, if they were more charitable, somebody would be able to name an Atheist-based charity. Somewhere. 90% of humanitarian causes and charity that happens in this country happens by Christians. Red CROSS, SALVATION Army, World Vision, Feed The Children, Habitat For Humanity all Christian. That’s not including the fact that of the 400,000 churches in America, almost every one of them does charitable outreach of some kind.

            What do you guys have? Planned Parenthood. An organization that has killed more babies than Hitler TENFOLD. Well done.
            Oh, and then there’s the ACLU. A group that has defended ACTUAL Nazis. Plus murderers and terrorists. That’s some good charity work right there.

            D. I never threatened you or anyone else. (By the way, if you stopped reading there…you read the whole thing.). My point was that if Christians were hate-filled bigots like you, the guy who is spreading intolerance and hatred all over this board for Christians (In the name of tolerance), you’d be gone from here. But, you already know that it wasn’t a threat, it’s just a simple fact. Either that, or you have terrible reading comprehension skills.

            E. I notice there’s a habit with you tares and goats. I’ve said it many times and it’s always the exact same thing, each and every one of you: Whenever I talk about the Presbyterians turning their whole denomination towards same-sex ideals, or Episcopalians electing a gay bishop, or Christians being fans of gay Christian artists, or charity being distributed by Christians to gay people, you gloss right over that every single time. Every single one of you.

            Why?

            Because you have no interest in truth. You have no interest in “live and let live.” You want to paint us as bigots because you hate us. YOU are the bigots who have hated us for nothing, long before gay marriage got this big. It’s usually because something bad happened to you and you don’t understand why God let it happen. Or someone in a position of trust did something to violate you, usually sexually. Your hate has nothing to do with gayness or logic. It’s just a base spiritual sickness. You’ve had to hide out in the shadows and hate God and his people for years. And now, you latch on to gays like parasites, because you’ll latch on to ANYTHING to try and discredit God and have us all believe that matter that came from nowhere, exploded for no reason, in a perfect vacuum that shouldn’t have existed, and that this explosion made rocks, and rocks made life, and life became monkeys and monkeys became men. THAT IS THE STUPIDEST IDEA EVER. Ever. Literally.

            But professing to be wise, you became as fools. And devil spirit within you believes all sorts of fallacies. So, let’s not pretend here, okay? You hate us. We don’t hate you. We disagree with you, but because you hate us, anything we do will be labeled as hate, because you want to drag us down to your base level.
            And that’s fine. Because you don’t matter. Your opinion doesn’t matter. Only God’s does.

            And the fact that he said himself that in the last days, people like you would exist, and would hate us illogically, makes me say this:

            If YOU think that I’m a perfect example of my religion: I ask you a question:

            PLEASE TELL ME WHAT ELSE I CAN SAY TO YOU TO MAKE YOU FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT ME EVEN MORE.

            I want you and your kind to hate me. Because they hated Jesus. And they hated the disciples. And they tried to silence and kill them in their hatred. But, just like 12 men who followed God went from 12 to 2.1 billion? I can only hope that your hatred and maybe even eventual murder of me, can have the same effect.

            You will never be rid of us, devil spirit. Just look at China. You level headed Atheists ran us underground. Killed and imprisoned our leaders. Destroyed our buildings. And in the process created the second largest group of Christian believers in all of Asia with 30 million people.

            Keep hating.

            It only makes us stronger.

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            So, because bigots cluster here, encouraging “hate ins” against other groups, others should avoid it? I don’t think so.

            Silly chap. I’m aware of the latest Pew publication, but you don’t understand that: 1) atheism isn’t a religion, 2) that I did not speak about atheists, but about the non-affiliated, who are part of a different Pew study you don’t know about and have never read, and 3) You can see growth in something even as its overall share drops, which is what is happening to religion.

            As you said (getting the target wrong), ” You pop off at the mouth and you know nothing”. Which is why I haven’t bothered to read the rest of your partisan screed, let alone responding to it.

          • kccoallday

            Brainless Pig Skank, how many little girls have you molested lately? I bet they find your aged fat lesbian carcass to be revolting. You lesbians only bathe about once per decade, the stench alone would be fatal to humans.

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            A perfect demonstration of the love advocated by your dreadful horned god thingies.

          • Derringer Duo

            LOL! Really? Come on… I mean, sure you’re getting eaten alive. But, you could at least TRY to put up a better fight. The God-Haters on Youtube are much more fun to play with. Obviously, Atheism isn’t a religion and I never said it was. I said that the fastest growing religious trend is Islam and Christianity is second. Meaning that the religious trend of denying religion (Atheism) is nowhere near outgrowing deists like you erroneously claim.

            Secondly, I really don’t care to distinguish between Atheists and “Non-Affiliated” or even Agnostic, really. You’re all the same to me. But, if we want to hone in on “Non-Affiliated” that’s an even smaller portion of non-believers than Atheists. You’re not doing yourself and your fake claims any service.

            “You can see growth in something even as it’s overall share drops.”

            What?

            No…really. WHAT? No, no you can’t. If something is growing, like faith in God, you’re not going to see an overall share drop. That doesn’t even make sense. Now, if you want to talk about business, you can see a particular sector drop, while the overall business grows. But that is usually a department or brand, not the OVERALL base like you claim. And belief in God is not departmentalized. You either believe in a God or you don’t. And more people are believing in a God, than those who are abandoning belief. That’s just bad debating, Hermit.

            And again, you’ve got to stop saying you’re not reading stuff and then responding in a manner that lets everyone know you clearly read it. And this time, you say you haven’t bothered to respond to it…with a response to it.

            This is honestly disheartening. I get a certain entertainment out of dismantling Atheists, “Non-Affiliated” and Secular Humanists. But, they have to be better than this for it to be any fun. Ducking the hard questions by saying: “I didn’t read” just says that A. You’re a liar. B. You don’t read. And if you don’t read, especially opposing viewpoints, you’ll never be worthy to carry the banner of your beliefs either here or in public.

            Because you’ll come across somebody like me. Who knows more about your position than you do. Who has deeply studied the theory of a Godless creation model, and you’ll be asked about Newton’s theories and Kings College’s discovery of the fact that the Higgs-Boson would’ve collapsed, not created the Universe, due to dropping the energy of the early Universe too low. And you won’t know what to say. Other than “I didn’t read your partisan screed”. (As if you aren’t just as partisan as I.)

            So, let’s end this. And here’s a word of advice: If you’re going to go trolling, stop. Pick up a book. Study. So that the next time you come across someone like me, you won’t get owned. But, I have a sneaking suspicion, that if you study enough, we’ll end up on the same side anyways. I wasn’t born a Christian. I read enough to know that Man knows nothing. And when I came to the end of myself and my knowledge, that’s when God showed up.

            Now, this is the part where you tell me you didn’t read this far, throw some random, ineffective insult and disappear.

            Adios.

          • http://emilie.hermit.net/ Hermit

            Stupid, ignorant and lazy as well as aggressive, delusional and suffering under a misapprehension of competence then.

            You appear to misunderstand atheism and agnosticism. Agnosticism is the doctine that the attributes of god thingies are not know or perhaps cannot be known, and is the antonym of the “gnosis”, “inner knowledge” claimed by some theists. Atheism is not vesting belief in god thingies and is the antonym of theism. Some atheists may identify as holding a positive stance, asserting that there are no god thingies, some a negative stance, asserting that we know of no viable god thingies and some an intermediate stance, rejecting known gods and being properly agnostic towards unknown gods, but to be an atheist, one cannot vest belief in any gods. This is completely compatible with agnosticism, as agnosticism and atheism speak to different things and are orthogonal, and although it is likely that most agnostics are in fact atheists as it is probably difficult to vest belief in gods the attributes of which are not known or knowable, it is not beyond belief that some agnostics may yet be theists, vesting belief in god thingies they know nothing about. After all, this does not seem incompatible with the beliefs of many christers.

            We agree that atheism is not a religion, but claims about rates of growth in religion in a stable population do speak to atheism, because, despite preferred labels (as one of the most persecuted minority groups, atheists may not report themselves as such, to avoid discrimination, persecution or social stigma), atheism, the non-vesting of belief in god thingies, is the default position. So claims that religion is growing faster in a stable population would amount to a claim that the number of atheists in that population is being reduced The reality is rather different. As I observed, and you foolishly pooh-poohed, populations are growing, meaning that religion can grow, and atheism can grow faster, without a conflict in claims. The current population doubling time is approximately 45 years (although we expect not to reach it as we have already exceeded the limits to growth, and already have a population some 3 to 13 times larger than the carrying capacity of the biosphere, which will necessitate a substantial population reduction in the near future). the doubling time for broadly defined atheism appears from a range of surveys to be about 10 years, which is why broadly defined atheism, as a proportion of the population, appears to be increasing. For example, in the USA, the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey showed that 18.6% of the adult population chose survey answers rejecting theism, with answers such as, “no such thing as god (2.3%), there is no way to know (4.3%), not sure (5.7%), or refusing to answer (6.1%)”

            This is substantiated by the report you drew on to sustain your claims, the “Pew Religion and Public Life Report”, from the summary of which we find (my emphasis):

            To illustrate this point, one need only look at the biggest gainer in this religious competition – the unaffiliated group. People moving into the unaffiliated category outnumber those moving out of the unaffiliated group by more than a three-to-one margin. At the same time, however, a substantial number of people (nearly 4% of the overall adult population) say that as children they were unaffiliated with any particular religion but have since come to identify with a religious group. This means that more than half of people who were unaffiliated with any particular religion as a child now say that they are associated with a religious group. In short, the Landscape Survey shows that the unaffiliated population has grown despite having one of the lowest retention rates of all “religious” groups.

            and

            The Landscape Survey confirms that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%…. Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic. These losses would have been even
            more pronounced were it not for the offsetting impact of immigration…Although there are about half as many Catholics in the U.S. as Protestants, the number of Catholics nearly rivals the number of members of evangelical Protestant churches and far exceeds the number of members of both mainline Protestant churches and historically black Protestant churches.

            and

            those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation… Like the other major groups, people who are unaffiliated with any particular religion (16.1%) also exhibit remarkable internal diversity. Although one-quarter of this group consists of those who describe
            themselves as either atheist or agnostic (1.6% and 2.4% of the adult population overall, respectively), the majority of the unaffiliated population (12.1% of the adult population overall) is made up of people who simply describe their religion as “nothing in particular.” This group, in turn, is fairly evenly divided between the “secular unaffiliated,” that is, those who say that religion is not important in their lives (6.3% of the adult population), and the “religious unaffiliated,” that is, those who say that religion is either somewhat important or very important in their lives (5.8% of the overall adult population).,

            This survey should be read in conjunction with the Public Religion Research Institute’s 2013 survey which reflected that just 31% of the religiously affiliated attended religious gatherings at least weekly, showing that the affiliated lie about their attendance habits, and the 2006 Harris Poll which reflected that «26% of those surveyed attended religious services “every week or more often”, 9% went “once or twice a month”, 21% went “a few times a year”, 3% went “once a year”, 22% went “less than once a year”, and 18% never attend religious services.», meaning that 40% of those claiming religious affiliation are affiliates more in name than action. Meanwhile, the 2012 Gallup “Global Index of Religion and Atheism” reflects that “the number of atheists is on the rise across the world, with religiosity generally declining”

            Your shifty-eyed projection points to the principle problem faced by habitual liars like yourself identified by Shaw in “The Quintessence Of Ibsenism“, “Just as the liar’s punishment is, not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe any one else”. I read enough to know that I am dealing with a case of extreme Dunning-Kruger, reinforced by your latest screed. A bloviating ignoramus with added nastiness, now adding unsustained claims to authority. Are you able and willing to provide a link to a page at a credible institution connecting your avatar to an academic curriculum vitae and cited publications or is this you claiming that you can micturate further than anyone else, knowing that nobody is going to expect you to post the proof to YouTube?

            This is why I didn’t bother to read or address the balance of your turgid mess last time, and won’t bother to address all of it this time either. I don’t need to. You are self-invalidating, despite your midden-crowing, not recognizing that it is not victory that you have attained, but a noxious notoriety leading civilised people to avoid you lest they become bespattered too.

            Your assertions about physics are as lunatic as the rest of your claims. Presumably borrowed apologetics from relentless partisans, riding on a wave of badly taught undergraduate or high-school physics. Or do you really imagine that you can articulate M-theory well enough to reject it, and are sufficiently educated in the field to sustain a rebuttal of the physics and cosmology of such luminaries as Feynman, Hawking, Carroll and deGrasse – along with physicists who have taken the trouble to articulate current research including Krausse? If so, sustain away, but skip the bits about the immense size and reach of your bits. That requires evaluation – and judging on what you have waved around so far, a rather powerful microscope.

          • kccoallday

            Why waste your time on this skag, she’s not worth it, she’s just a bitter old lesbian with nothing to do but spew her hate.

          • Derringer Duo

            I get a kick out of it, KC. I always have loved debating people, even before I was a Christian. But, I get a particular joy out of dismantling the foundations of non-believers. Not just because it’s fun, but when they are better debaters, we can get to a point where they begin to question what they believe. I’ve seen all sorts of people drop all kinds of beliefs. And sometimes, they come to Christ. Funny story: My house was actually banned by the local Jehovah’s Witnesses chapter in my city, because I was shaking the faith of the door knockers. They were prohibited from coming to my house! LOL!

            More than anything though, I love getting into it with Atheists. Because unlike any other people, they parade around this elitist attitude as if they are the smartest people on Earth. It’s nauseating. I like owning them the most. Because the VAST majority of them don’t even study on the viewpoints of Atheism, Agnosticism, Secularism, etc… They’ve not once picked up an astrophysics book. They just pick up the label because they want to rebel against established religion. But they pose as though they are Neil Degrasse Tyson. I love exposing them.

  • Susan Toler

    I say if a company is forced to serve someone that is against their religious or even personal beliefs, then the company has a right to put on the decorations that they feel appropriate. You know, like scriptures from the Bible and all that. I don’t see any stories of homosexuals suing Muslims for not doing the exact same thing. That is against the Constitution, focusing on one religious group and singe long them out for personal gain and the government is not protecting them from these people who are supposed to be loving and kind, and understanding.

    • Amanda Allen

      but the case is… they SERVE them ALL the time… but now that its a wedding cake they want to be religious… come on… they was being judgemental .. of the event… not the gays… if you choose to serve m daily… you cant just stopped because yoy dislike where they gon take the cake.. do the job you choose to do and stop crying… they got what they deserved… 125000… is a bit much but point was noted.

  • Semp

    I totally agree with this judge, because I, too, know what it’s like to be on the receiving end of hatred and bigotry, to suffer unfathomable emotional distress at being disrespected and treated as a third-class citizen. You see, I am 5’6″ and weigh 300 lbs. I went to the men’s department at Macy’s, and they had NO suits, slacks, or shirts that would fit me – ZIP! I brought this to the clerk’s attention, and he informed me they did not stock my sizes, but there was a big’n’tall menswear store a mile down the street. A mile down the street! Might as well have been a thousand miles! I insisted that I speak to the manager, and he gave me the same line – “We’re so sorry, sir, but we don’t stock clothing in your size, but there are several big’n’tall shops in this area.”

    Let’s call this what it is: DISCRIMINATION – pure and simple. While in Macy’s I saw lots of men at the cash registers, paying for pants and shirts. Oh, but nothing for me! “We don’t serve your kind here!” What is there about this that’s hard to understand? I am a MAN, and go to a store, open to the PUBLIC, and it sells clothing for MEN – but for me, they got nothing – move along, go find another store that serves your kind. This is not a store, this is Center for Hatred and Bigotry. How they must’ve laughed when I walk in – “Let’s jerk this sucker around, make him feel lower than a snake’s belly. Imagine HIS type thinking he’ll get anything from us!”

    Can anyone put a price tag on what I suffer? Heck no! I walk in that store with a valid credit card, a smile on my face, and a song in my heart – and I leave at the pit bottom of despair. “Sorry, nothing for you – go somewhere else.”

    How about $500,000? A million? You can’t put a price on this kind of hurt.

    • UmustBKiddinMe

      It’s unfortunate that you don’t have a better understanding of anti-discrimination laws and how they work. Your example is quite puerile.

  • momotaro

    Unless they also refuse service to all sinners (divorcees, non-christian, atheist, bankers with banks who charge interest and the list goes on and on), they are practicing discrimination.

    so yea, This is a case on where good christians followed the lead of stupid Christians leaders and politicians.

  • Vic Christian

    Christian businesses – unless you feel that God wants you to remain in Oregon as a witness, then you might want to leave Oregon as it seems the government of that state has decided to persecute you.

  • israelreturns

    If there are still courts in the United States that have the right to deny same sex marriages then why can’t this company reserve the right to refuse business on the same grounds? I suppose this just goes to show corporations no matter how small are owned by the state and the State will make you obey. Welcome to the New World Order. My heart felt sadness for the family that has been targeted.

  • Pm

    Bitter and nasty people. I never had a problem with LBGT community until recently. Now it’s hard to distinguish between them being bullies or not. I hate bullies and if it becomes gay bashing season again, this time, I won’t blink an eye. You came out of the closet to boss us around? Fuck that. I hope you get what’s coming…a nice baseball bat cake.

  • Charles Spencer

    There is nothing stated about hate, freedom not to sell a cake is the issue. Any shop should be able to refuse service since there are thousands willing to sell cakes to anyone. This is just another means to push an agenda that is wrong

  • Ronda Erkfitz Eby

    Call me nieve but I’ve never understand why their freedom of religion doesn’t come in play here.

  • Yvonne Celeste Lee

    Evil laws made by evil men should not be obeyed by godly people.

  • http://empowernetwork.com/suetamani Sue Tamani

    Wtf does buying a cake have to do with sexual preference? That was true discrimination and deserves to be punished.

    • Asemodevs

      Another creepy lesbian gives us her opinion, whoopee.

      • http://empowernetwork.com/suetamani Sue Tamani

        what? anyone who disagrees with you is a lesbian? very logical.

  • Chris

    If you sell wedding cakes, you can’t pick and choose who to sell them to. Welcome to america. If they were worried about this, and wanted to stay legal, they should have just stopped making cakes for all weddings. These laws aren’t exactly new.

    Btw – churches and religion have NOTHING to do with marriage, they merely officiate weddings……if people choose to have theirs at one.

    • Asemodevs

      Pansy

      • Chris

        Bigot.

  • pixeloid

    These fanatical bigots have already received $109k from GoFundMe before it was shut down (they don’t fund fines for illegal activity), and I hear they have other funding in the works. They probably won’t make a million like the pizza place, but they won’t go bankrupt. Of course, I can’t imagine anyone ever wanting to do business with these people again.

  • Greg Baugher

    I run a remodeling company, people refer me to people. These people call me and I go look at the job and meet the people. Sometimes I don’t like the people I just met and don’t feel like I would get along with them and therefore I decline to bid their job. CAN I BE SEWED FOR THAT? This is fucked up.

    • Bill

      they can if you turn them away because of their religion, race, gender, marital status and in some places sexual orientation

      • Asemodevs

        You live on the web 24/7, girl, you are a LOSER>

        • Bill

          can’t refute my facts so you just insult me, how sad

  • Derek Sivrais

    Christians spend the last 2000 years or so executing gays and pagans, hows it feel to have karma come back around on you?

    • Asemodevs

      Effeminate nerd, no one persecuted you.
      You got AIDS from other gay men, Christians didn’t give it to you, you fool.

  • UmustBKiddinMe

    “which is now operated from the couple’s home after the Kleins’ shut their doors due to harassment.”

    No, they shut their doors because they didn’t have enough business to keep the doors open.

    ““We were being asked to participate in something that we could not participate in,” Klein’s wife, Melissa, noted.”

    Yes, they could. They choose not to. That choice violated the law. They were held accountable for violating the law. Simple as that.

    “The Kleins have expressed concern for months that if they were forced to pay a fine for declining the cake over their Christian convictions, the penalty would “definitely” bankrupt the family.”

    As I recall, the money raised through “GoFundMe” was more than enough to pay the fine. Therefore, they will not be out of pocket any money.

    “But the Kleins told the court that they too had suffered because of the attacks that they received over their desire to live out their Christian faith in the workplace.”

    There is no excuse for threats are acts of vandalism to personal property.

    ““Their business is gone,””

    No it’s not. As the article clearly states, they now operate their business out of their home, as many people do.

    “It’s a shocking result and it shows the state’s relentless campaign to punish Oregonians who live and work according to their faith,”

    To suggest that one case amounts to a “relentless campaign” is without merit.

    “Some Christians believe that being a part of a same-sex event violates the biblical command in 1 Timothy 5:22 not to be “partakers in other men’s sins,” as well as the command in Ephesians 5:7, “Be not ye therefore partakers with them.””

    The Bible states that having sexual relations with someone of the same gender is a sin. Were the Kliens asked to have sexual relations with someone of the same gender? Were they asked to participate in the act of having sexual relations with someone of the same gender? Where the two women going to engage in sexual relations at the wedding?

    I wonder if the Kliens asked opposite gender couples if either had been divorced for reasons other than adultery, and then refused the order if so? I wonder if the Kliens, when asked to do a cake for a baby shower, inquired if the mother-to-be was married, and then refused the order if not? I wonder if the Kliens, when asked to do a cake for a wedding shower, inquired if the couple were having sexual relations, and then refused the order if they were?

    Surely, if not participating in an event that involves biblical sin is so very important to them, they were making these inquiries.

  • O’Brien McRae

    So, you Christians believe that you should recognize one sin by committing another?

  • O’Brien McRae

    Mark 12:31English Standard Version (ESV)

    31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

  • Greg Baugher

    It’s a fucked up world.

  • Mick

    The $135,000 is VERY excessive in my opinion. However, these people should’ve known better. If they lived in a state where there was no discrimination law set in place, then yes, by all means they’d be allowed to deny service to this lesbian couple without legal backlash. But this is not the case here, they blatantly broke the law and are now being punished for it, so their whining is really falling on deaf ears. If they were that hard up about making a cake for a lesbian couple, they could’ve lied and say they didn’t have time or room on that particular date to make the cake, but instead they decided to use their beliefs as an excuse to deny service. So this is really all on them.

  • Angel Nova

    I have lots of gays and lesbian members of the family as well as good friends . I care a love all of them but I will never ever participate in their gay activities and weddings. Not because of my religion but because I know I’ll get totally sick looking at two men French kiss and two women kissing each other in public. I have the freedom to take care of my health . Sorry Gays, you just cannot force everybody to accept you lifestyle.

  • Brutal Truth

    Why isn’t everybody calling for the head of the Gestapo that runs the Oregon Bureau
    of Labor and Industries that pursued charges against the Kleins on behalf of
    the now married same-sex couple? Whoever that is and on that staff, is not
    exactly without guilt for this wrongful enforcement and penalty!

    Should you be contacting this individual to find out if he or someone in his department is responsible for criminal abuse of government authority against the couple who lost their bakery:

    Brad Avakian
    Commisioner
    OREGON BUREAU OF LABOR AND INDUSTRIES
    800 NE Oregon St.,
    Suite 1045
    Portland 97232
    Phone:
    971-673-0761
    [email protected]

  • Richard P

    Imagine one moment a restaurant with a sign on the door “We do not serve black people”! Or “No jews allowed”. I can make my own religion with total crap and I would be justified to make my own rules. This is why laws exist; to protect the minorities, to prevent any kind of discriminations.

  • BobD

    Used to be I was fine with gay marriage… why not let them have tax benefits, health care decisions, etc? But now that we have four or five of these frivolous lawsuits, I oppose any gay marriage and any politician supporting gay marriage until it is legal to decline a wedding. The well has been poisoned. No more.

    • Patti

      There have been a lot more serious cases of discrimination. Last February a pediatrician refused to examine a 6 day old infant because her mothers were lesbian. This was in Michigan and there were no anti discrimination laws forbidding this type of behavior, so the doctor wasn’t even sanctioned. Fortunately I’ve never heard of any other doctor doing this. Unfortunately there were several “Christians?” on discussion boards who thought what the doctor did was wonderful. One woman even told me the doctor’s medical practice is now booming with born-again Christians. So while not letting a Christian baker sit out a gay wedding might seem petty, it’s not nearly as serious as a doctor refusing to see a newborn baby and being cheered on by the born-again crowd.

      So while I wish they would make an exception to anti-discrimination laws for particular events that people have sincere religious objections to, those laws are still necessary to prevent the GLBT crowd from being denied essential services. And why punish the vast majority of gay couples who find willing bakers and florists? And why punish the children of those couples who benefit from the protections offered by marriage?

      • Kara Connor

        The infant denied medical services was not, at least as far as we know, LGBT. Some of the laws that states are rushing to pass would conceivably allow paramedics to refuse to treat LGBT people. This doctor, who seems to have read her own meaning into “suffer little children” took an oath when she became a doctor. If she wasn’t prepared to honor that oath because of her conscience, she should have chosen a different profession.

        • Patti

          She also went against AMA rules which do tell you to provide medical care for all without discrimination. But those rules are more like guidelines with no enforcement mechanism. If the child of a born again Christian were refused medical service because the doctor didn’t agree with their religion, they’d raise bloody h-ll and for good reason. The difference is we’d be standing beside them, not claiming it was okay because the kid was pawned off to a different doctor they knew nothing about and whom wasn’t the one they had researched, interviewed and made the appointment with.

          • Kara Connor

            Absolutely

    • Kara Connor

      Presumably it wouldn’t be “frivolous” if it were gay bakers disobeying the law. Funny how when discrimination doesn’t affect you, you think it frivolous.

  • Ferndalelaw

    These people do not act or sound like Christians. Christians rejoice when the government persecutes them for their faith. Christians willingly pay the penalty – even if it is death. The people who want to separate themselves in order to keep themselves undefiled by us sinner are not followers of Jesus and do not understand the Good News. They are followers of the Pharisees. These people are whining because they don’t think their faith is worth $135,000. Baking a cake for a gay couple is no more “participating” in their marriage than is selling them a pair of socks or fuel for their car. In America you are allowed to believe anything you choose…but in the market place, religious bakers must follow the same laws as all other bakers. Religious employers and landlords must follow the same laws as all other employers and landlords.

    • Patti

      I believe they’ve already raised $100,000 thru some crowdfunding source and a pastor is collecting still more for them. Plus, this award is not final and could be reduced. There’s a good chance the couple won’t be out anything financially and could even make money on the case. But of course there’s been a lot of angst and upheaval for everyone involved, including one of the lesbian women who had her name and address posted on Facebook by the male owner of Sweet Cakes.

      I actually wish gay people would simply go elsewhere for their wedding cakes, florists and photographers. Why would anyone want a begrudging service where you have to worry about someone spitting in the cake batter when there are so many other bakeries eager for your business? That being said I still don’t see this bakery as a victim. Couldn’t the guy have just said something to the effect of,

      the laws won’t allow me to refuse your business but you know my heart won’t be in it with my religious beliefs. So & so down the street bakes excellent cakes and doesn’t share my beliefs – he’ll be enthusiastic and ready to give you his all. I’m not refusing you, but do you really think I’m the best choice?

      An approach like that should solve the guy’s dilemma as who wants a disgruntled baker on their wedding day? I get the feeling, though, that this guy treated the women (it was actually one of the lesbian women and her mother who came in) like the spawn of Satan and then was shocked when he was hit with a lawsuit.

  • Bruce Morrow

    I would simply NOT PAY ANY FINES, even if “ordered” by some judge. The Christian couple are simply being targeted for NOT wanting to be partaker of other men’s sins.

  • Harriet Cox

    This is where the christian community must come together as one especially those who make millions of dollars from their congregation. If the couple is fined then they can donate the money I’m sure it would not put a dent in their pockets. I pray that if they are awarded the money it does not prosper.

  • Peter Leh

    discrimination has its costs… so does listen to poor legal advice

  • Charles Spencer

    The penalty does not fit the offense. The judge is more interested in making a name for himself than in fair justice.

  • rocket_science

    Christians’ need to bone up on their bible proverbs before they go hurling the abomination card against gay and transgendered. See Genesis 19; v30-36…

  • John Szewczyk

    If gays hate God for his stand on homosexuals,and the U.S. Dollars says ”In God We Trust” money is no good to them.So they shouldn’t be using money.They should be banned from money.