Bruce Jenner Talks Going ‘Transgender,’ Claims God Gave Him ‘the Soul of a Female’

JennerIn an interview airing on ABC’s 20/20 Friday, former Olympic athlete Bruce Jenner told reporter Diane Sawyer that he believes God gave him “the soul of a female” but a male body so that he would have to work out his gender identity throughout his life.

“I’ve tried to explain it this way [to my kids]: God’s looking down, making little Bruce. … He says, ‘Okay, what are gonna do with this one? Make him a smart kid, very determined. … And then when He’s just finishing he says, ‘Let’s wait a second,” he told Sawyer. “God looks down and chuckles a little bit and says, ‘Hey, let’s give him the soul of a female and see how he does with that.'”

“I’ve always been confused with my gender identity since I was [a child],” Jenner, 65, acknowledged.

He said that as a child he tried on a dress in his mother’s closet, but would do so secretly so that no one would find out.

“I marked the closet so when I put it back I could put it all back, everything back in the exact same spot so I wouldn’t get caught,” Jenner said. “And, at the time, I didn’t know why I was doing it besides it just made me feel good.”

He said that he took female hormones for five years in the 1980’s, and restarted the treatments approximately a year and a half ago. Jenner has also had several cosmetic surgeries to alter his appearance.

“For all intents and purposes, I’m a woman,” he told Sawyer. “People look at me differently. They see you as this macho male, but my heart and my soul and everything that I do in life—it is part of me. That female side is part of me. That’s who I am.”

  • Connect with Christian News

“My brain is much more female than it is male. That’s what my soul is,” Jenner continued. “Bruce lives a lie. She is not a lie. I can’t do it anymore.”

He said that he thought maybe God was behind it all.

“Maybe this is my cause in life,” Jenner stated. “This is why God put me on this earth—to deal with this issue.”

But others disagree with the former Olympic athlete, and state that while they believe Jenner should be treated with kindness over his struggles, he should also be told the truth.

“First of all, we should avoid the temptation to laugh at these suffering souls. We do not see our transgendered neighbors as freaks to be despised,” said Russell Moore, president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, in an article on Friday. “They feel alienated from their identities as men or women and are seeking a solution to that in self-display or in surgery or in pumping their bodies with the other sex’s hormones.”

He explained that such struggles come as the result of the fall, and that all men—before Christ—face issues that distort God’s design for their lives, although the temptations differ from person to person.

“In a fallen universe, all of us are alienated, in some way, from who we were designed to be. That alienation manifests itself in different ways in different people,” Moore said. “We are born not out of self-effort but in the pure providence of our Creator. Our given gender points us to an even deeper reality—to the unity and complementarity of Christ and the Church. A rejection of the goodness of those creational realities then is a revolt against God’s lordship, and against the picture of the gospel that God has embedded in the creation.”

He stated that there is hope for Jenner in Jesus Christ—and all who believe that they were born transgender—as Christ came so that men could be born again.

“The hope for Bruce Jenner, and for others like him, is not to alter the body with surgery or to flood their systems with hormones,” Moore said. “The answer is to realize that all of us are born alienated from what we were created to be. We don’t need to fix what happened in our first birth; we need a new birth altogether.”


A special message from the publisher...

Dear Reader, our hearts are deeply grieved by the ongoing devastation in Iraq, and through this we have been compelled to take a stand at the gates of hell against the enemy who came to kill and destroy. Bibles for Iraq is a project to put Arabic and Kurdish audio Bibles into the hands of Iraqi and Syrian refugees—many of whom are illiterate and who have never heard the gospel.Will you stand with us and make a donation today to this important effort? Please click here to send a Bible to a refugee >>

Print Friendly
  • Crono478

    Galatians 1:8-9

    8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    ———-

    Deuteronomy 22:5

    5 “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment, for all who do so are an abomination to the Lord your God.

    ———-

    In short, what Bruce is saying is completely contrary to what Bible says. Let him be accursed.

    • Homer for God

      Guys the bottom line is this: God created us with the power of choice. He gave it to Adam and Eve and its been that fact ever since. We as individuals choose how to think, feel and act no matter what society we live in. ALL God wants is for us to have a personal relationship with him and he even said that we are unique and that no two people is exactly the same. It is our CHOICE whether we want to follow him and have that relationship. If you don’t or choose to reject him then that is on you. Your choices define you. I choose to have a close personal relationship with him and I choose to follow him. I know he saved my life and that’s why I choose him. God bless everyone.

  • Richard

    God doesn’t cause people to sin. Bruce is suffering from psychological and emotional issues, not a ‘gender’ issue.

    • Paul Hiett

      Are you a doctor? A psychiatrist? A psychologist? Are you gay? Are you transgender?
      Obviously these are rhetorical questions. The answer is “no” to all of them, which means you have no idea what these people think or feel. Neither does your Bible. You have no right to judge them, or tell them how to live their lives. None.

      • Richard

        As I’ve told you in the past, I have a good command (many years of experience) of behavior and what motivates it.

        So do a great many others. Gender confusion isn’t a mystery to those familiar with it. Suggesting otherwise is just another dogmatic assertion. You make many of them.

        > you have no right to judge them

        I have every right to express my opinion. And since I don’t believe in moral relativism, expressing my opinion doesn’t violate my own moral code.

        You judging those who disagree with gays and transgenders does violate your moral code. Therefore, you are a hypocrite – saying one thing and doing another.

        • Paul Hiett

          Can you describe what a gay person or transgender person feels or thinks?
          Yes or no.

          • Richard

            Yes! And, I know the reasons why. Do you?

          • Paul Hiett

            So you’re gay or transgender?

          • Richard

            Another misassumption. Gay and trans supporters are full of them…one of the reasons they are so confused. Truth escapes them.

  • Mary Waterton

    It’s the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:22-30) … rejecting Christ by way of imputing Satanic attributes to God so they can wallow in abomination with the implied approval of God. When will Christians see homosexuals for what they really are?

    • Paul Hiett

      Can you tell me how a gay person feels, or thinks?

      • Mary Waterton

        I have no ear for your Godless nonsense, Paul. Go find someone who is willing to listen to it.

        • Paul Hiett

          Of course you don’t, because you can’t answer the question, which renders your judgment of them moot.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            We love gay people. We love them so much that we tell them what others won’t: That what they are doing may not turn out well. We all have our crosses to bear, but recently, the world has been trying to turn crosses into pleasure.

          • Paul Hiett

            Homosexuality has been around as long as man has existed on the earth. Do you really think it’s just going to disappear now?

          • Don Jump

            It’s not our Judgement of them as people they need to worry about,but that of God being relayed to them by us.We’re messengers.What you do with the words related is up to you.We’ve chosen our side.Who’s are you on?

      • Richard

        Yes, I can.

        • Deina

          I didn’t know you were gay, though it’s really no surprise. A huge percentage of homophobes are!

          So you can tell us how you think & feel, but, unless you are God, you can’t say the same for anyone else.

          • Richard

            I’m not gay. Just more misassumptions on your part. You and Paul are full of them.

          • Paul Hiett

            Ah, so you’re not gay, so then you lied about knowing how a gay person feels and thinks. Typical.

          • Richard

            Another misassumption. That didn’t take long…merely a few seconds.

            Those who study behavior know quite a lot about how people think, feel, and act. You may want to study it so your comments aren’t so naive.

          • Paul Hiett

            So, you are gay and lied about that, or you’re not gay and lied about knowing how they feel. Which is it?
            If you’re not gay, there is no way you could ever understand how they feel or think.
            If you are gay, then you do understand, and you’re just in denial about who you are.
            Either way, you lied.

          • Richard

            > f you’re not gay, there is no way you could ever understand how they feel or think.

            Of course there is. Homosexuality and transgender issues have been studied to death. Their causes aren’t mysteries, and neither are how they feel about themselves. It’s obvious you don’t understand them, or you wouldn’t be making such foolish claims. But just because you don’t understand them, doesn’t mean no one else does.

          • Paul Hiett

            Not at all. Unless you’re gay or transgender, you can’t know. You can’t know how ANYONE is feeling or thinking. They could tell you, and you they have, but you refuse to listen. You dismiss their feelings as “choices” because that’s what you want to believe from your Bible, but any claim by you that you know is a blatant lie and nothing more.

          • Richard

            > Unless you’re gay or transgender, you can’t know.

            That’s another naive comment. Therapists have been helping people overcome psychological and emotional problems for years without personally experiencing them. Educate yourself, Paul. That might help to clear up your confusion.

          • Deina

            Then there’s simply no way that you know what they think or feel.

            The only thing you can do is pretend to know their thoughts by projecting your own feelings onto them, and by assuming that their thought processes work the way you want them to.

          • Richard

            > Then there’s simply no way that you know what they think or feel.

            Of course there is. Homosexuality and transgender issues have been studied to death. Their causes aren’t mysteries, and neither are how they feel about themselves. It’s obvious you don’t understand them, or you wouldn’t be making such foolish claims. But just because you don’t understand them, doesn’t mean no one else does.

          • Paul Hiett

            Unless you are gay or transgender, any claim by you to know what they are feeling or thinking is a blatant lie.

          • Richard

            > Unless you are gay or transgender, any claim by you to know what they are feeling or thinking is a blatant lie.

            Another dogmatic assertion, Paul. People have been studying behavior and psychology for years. Your comment is completely wrong…and naive.

            You may want to study this subject, too, since you once again show you have no real idea what you are talking about.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you or do you not know what it is like to look at another man and feel the sexual arousal that a gay man does?

          • Richard

            You said you weren’t gay. If so, how would YOU know what you are talking about? What would quality YOU to judge my knowledge on the subject?

          • Paul Hiett

            Answer the question please, and then I’ll happily respond to yours.

          • Richard

            Yes, I understand why gays feel the way they do. Now answer my questions.

          • Paul Hiett

            You didn’t answer the question. Do you or do you not know what it is like to look at another man and feel the sexual arousal that a gay man does?

          • Richard

            Yes, I understand it.

            Do you? If so, how could you? You’ve stated elsewhere that you weren’t gay. So your comments are moot.

          • Paul Hiett

            No, Richard, you’re avoiding the question. Claiming you understand it is not feeling it. Now please, can you simply answer the question?

          • Richard

            I answered it twice. That’s enough.

            But since you aren’t gay, by your own standards, you have no idea what you are talking about.

          • Paul Hiett

            I will never know what it’s like to feel sexual arousal at the sight of another man. I can’t know that because I’m straight. However, I do have a lesbian daughter. I respect and trust her to tell me how she’s feeling, what she thinks. We’ve had more in depth conversations about it than most parents I would imagine.
            Now, can you please answer the question, because thus far you’ve danced around it and you know it. Do you know what it’s like to feel sexual arousal at the sight of another man?

          • Crono478

            Paul, that is why gay marriage and equality hit home close to you. Your daughter is lesbian. How old is she right now?

          • Paul Hiett

            21. Came out when she was 16.

          • Crono478

            Are you married?

          • Deina

            Relevance?

          • Crono478

            I want to know if her daughter grew up having both parents who are married. Right now, I have no idea so that is why I ask rather than making assumptions.

          • Paul Hiett

            We were married until she was 12. Looking back though, she never once, ever, professed an interest in boys, which now makes perfect sense.

          • Crono478

            What led to the divorce? Also, did it have an effect on your daughter?

          • Paul Hiett

            Just two people who got married too early and for all the wrong reasons. I see no correlation between her being gay and us being divorced though.

          • Crono478

            “I see no correlation between her being gay and us being divorced though.”

            I never said that. You said it yourself. I am only asking you if the divorce have any effect on your daughter.

          • Paul Hiett

            You didn’t have to say it, it was obviously implied. Sure it did, all divorces affect the members of the family.

          • Crono478

            Did she live with you after the divorce?

          • Paul Hiett

            Yes, actually. Now, is there a point?

          • Crono478

            “Now, is there a point?”

            Before I get to the point, I have one more question for you. Have you taught your daughter everything what you learned as an atheist such as gay marriage and equality?

          • Paul Hiett

            She’s a Christian, actually. She knows I’m an atheist, but it doesn’t interfere in our relationship at all. I have another daughter, btw. I don’t force my views on either one of them. I leave that to be decided by them, but I do answer questions if/when they come up.

          • Crono478

            She is a Christian lesbian?

          • Richard

            Your daughter believes in God, yet you encourage her to sin. Is that loving?

            Why would you encourage your daughter to be abandoned from the God she loves? How is that being a good parent?

            You said you let them make up their own minds. Don’t you see how your influence is the complete opposite of your claim?

          • Crono478

            It is not about forcing your views on them. It is about how you raised your two daughters.

            This Bible verse is relevant.

            Proverb 29:15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom,
            But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

          • The Last Trump

            Oh, Paul! You let Hollywood dictate the morals your children would grow up with!? In all seriousness, you really should reflect on that for a little while. It’s no surprise homosexuality is BOOMING today in godless and hedonistic America, when parents don’t teach their own children that there is a right and wrong where marriage and family are concerned and Hollywood does instead. HOLLYWOOD!! When your own moral character most closely resembles the garbage coming from THAT crowd one should be very concerned! Right from the sleeping around as young teenagers and engaging in multiple sexual encounters and experimentation. To drug and alcohol abuse. Our culture is a joke, our divorce rate sky high and our family structure in ruins. We have seen for ourselves the sordid results of the before and after pictures of marriage and family under Biblical doctrine and without. And the after picture is just plain ugly. Am I wrong?

          • Richard

            > I see no correlation between her being gay and us being divorced though.

            You’ve already demonstrated YOU don’t understand. But that doesn’t mean other sdon’t. I believe Crono will educate you. If you are really interested, hear what he/she has to say.

          • Paul Hiett

            Care to cite a study that shows divorce causes a sexual orientation change? No? Didn’t think so.
            Now, are you willing to answer the question about knowing how it feels to have sexual arousal at the sight of another man?

          • Richard

            > Care to cite a study that shows divorce causes a sexual orientation change? No?

            There are many reasons for gender confusion. Did your daughter stay with you or her mother?

          • Paul Hiett

            Please answer the question.

          • Richard

            I have twice. That’s enough. I’ve also respond twice to you prodding. That’s enough as well.

            I noticed you haven’t answered any my questions.

          • Paul Hiett

            No, you haven’t answered it. I’ve been trying to get you to answer it, but you flat out refuse. It’s a simple question.
            Do you know what it feels like to have sexual arousal at the sight of another man?

          • Richard

            I’ll take that to mean you have no intention of answering my questions.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’ve actually answered some…case in point, this quote: ”

            Paul Hiett Richard • 37 minutes ago

            I will never know what it’s like to feel sexual arousal at the sight of another man. I can’t know that because I’m straight. However, I do have a lesbian daughter. I respect and trust her to tell me how she’s feeling, what she thinks. We’ve had more in depth conversations about it than most parents I would imagine.”

            So, you actually just lied about that. You have yet to answer mine.

          • Richard

            > So, you actually just lied about that. You have yet to answer mine.

            If you read my comments, I already knew the answer to the one you posted:

            I replied:
            “You said you weren’t gay. If so, how would YOU know what you are talking about? What would quality YOU to judge my knowledge on the subject?”

            My other question is:

            If you don’t know, why do you think you can judge my knowledge? Isn’t that being hypocritical?

            Case in point: If you don’t know how gay people feel, it’s illogical to assume I don’t.

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you or do you not know how it feels to be sexually aroused at the sight of another man?
            Please simply answer with a yes or no. Do not attempt to dance around by claiming “I understand…”. Simply answer the question.

          • Richard

            > Do you or do you not know how it feels to be sexually aroused at the sight of another man?

            As I said, if you don’t know how a gay person feels, you wouldn’t know if I knew or not. Your question is illogical…even though I answered it twice previously.

          • Paul Hiett

            It’s a pretty simple question though. Do you feel arousal at the sight of another man? I don’t know why this is so hard for you to answer.

          • Richard

            Paul, if you don’t know what a gay person feels, how are you able to judge my knowledge of it?

            Your question is illogical. Restating it over and over again doesn’t make it logical.

          • Paul Hiett

            I’m not asking me, I’m asking you. Do you know how it feels to have sexual arousal at the sight of another man?
            Seriously, why is it so hard for you to answer this simple question?

          • Richard

            You aren’t getting this, Paul. Since you, yourself, don’t know how it feels, you won’t know if I know. In other words, you don’t have the knowledge to accurately assess my answer.

            Therefore, your question is illogical.

            How about answering some of mine, including:
            Your daughter believes in God, yet you encourage her to sin. Is that loving?

            Why would you encourage your daughter to be abandoned from the God she loves? How is that being a good parent?

            You said you let them make up their own minds. Don’t you see how your influence is the complete opposite of your claim?

          • Paul Hiett

            Whether you think it’s logical or not is not relevant to the discussion. You are the one that claims to understand how they feel and think. Therefore, it should be easy to answer a question about being sexually aroused at the sight of another man. Simply answer the question.

          • Richard

            It’s easy for me to answer. But if you don’t know yourself, how will you know what I’m saying is true? You won’t.

            This will be an exercise in futility.

            How about answering my questions?? Your answers will be based on your opinion, and not training. Big difference.

          • Paul Hiett

            Then answer the question and we can go from there.

          • Richard

            There’s no point in me answering a question you don’t know the answer to.

            If you don’t know how gay people feel, it’s illogical to assume I don’t.

          • Paul Hiett

            Answer the question, and we’ll move on. What transpires from that point is unknown, so your claim is unjustified.

          • Richard

            You appear to be suffering some cognitive dissonance.

            You say no one can know how gays feel except themselves. You aren’t gay. That means you don’t know.

            I say I know how they feel. You say I don’t…even though YOU don’t know how they feel.

            Don’t you see the problem here? Because you don’t know how they feel, no matter what I say you’ll say it’s wrong…BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW HOW THEY FEEL.

            Answering your question is illogical.

            THIS IS AS CLEAR AS I CAN MAKE IT. If you ask me again, I’m going to seriously question your sanity.

          • Paul Hiett

            “Don’t you see the problem here? Because you don’t know how they feel, no matter what I say you’ll say it’s wrong…BECAUSE YOU DON’T KNOW HOW THEY FEEL”
            This is your problem. You’ve already established that you’re not gay. Therefore, there is no possible way that you could ever understand what it’s like to be sexually aroused at the sight of another man. Any claim to the contrary proves you lied about being gay. Any claim that you do know what it’s like, is a lie because you’re not gay.
            Either way, you have absolutely no idea what a gay man feels, making it a ludicrous claim that sexual orientation is just a “choice”.

          • Richard

            > Either way, you have absolutely no idea what a gay man feels, making it a ludicrous claim that sexual orientation is just a “choice”.

            Your comments speak for themselves. You have no idea what you are talking about. You should consider educating yourself on the subjects you criticize. Otherwise, you really do look foolish and uneducated.

          • Paul Hiett

            Testing spaces…
            One space
            Two space

          • Paul Hiett

            I will be later this year.

          • Richard

            > I can’t know that because I’m straight.

            If you don’t know, why do you think you can judge my knowledge? Isn’t that being hypocritical?

            Paul, I’ve talked with more gays than you can imagine. I’ve also talked with countless others. I have a good command of behavior and what motivates it. You have no capacity to judge my knowledge based on your lack of it.

            Good for you for hearing out your daughter. But if you are untrained in dealing with these types of issues, the best you can do is offer your opinion. That in no way makes your opinion true.

            If you really want to help your daughter, you’d encourage her to seek help for her psychological and emotional issues.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            I don’t feed that wolf.

          • Deina

            Then give us links to a couple of the major studies that you base your opinions on.

          • Richard

            What’s the point, you’ll just deny them anyway. You’ve shown you have no interest in learning….but just denying, as Paul does.

            If you are gay yourself, go get some counselling. You’ll learn a lot.

          • Deina

            In other words, you can’t because you haven’t followed any.

            You’re nothing more than a charlatan & a liar.

            You’re dismissed.

          • Richard

            > In other words, you can’t because you haven’t followed any.

            You are really good at misassumptions. Here’s another one.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            The psychiatrist who was part of the commission who took gayness out of the mental disorders has regretted the decision.

      • FoJC_Forever

        All thoughts and feeling which are not of God are of the carnal, fallen nature of mankind.

        Everyone has feelings and thoughts which are contrary to God’s Will and Word.

        Jesus came to save people from the carnal nature, which was born of Sin, not allow them to embrace it.

        • El_Tigre_Loco

          Humans are a mixture of the spirit and the flesh. Angels are pure spirit, animals are pure flesh. We get to choose. Lots of people make the incorrect choice.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Humans are spirit, soul, body. Read Genesis.

      • Crono478

        I agree with FOJC_Forever. Paul, why do you come to Christiannews to debate with us on many issues.

        • Paul Hiett

          Gay marriage and equality is a civil rights issue that hits close to home.

          • Crono478

            Not only this, but the issue on state and church hits close to home for you too.

            What is your purpose? Are you attempting to convince us to accept your views on these areas?

          • Richard

            Paul is not interested in truth. He seeks to destroy young believers. He is doing the work of his father, the devil. Pray for him.

          • Crono478

            I already knew for a while that he is resisting God’s words. I was somewhat confused why he kept on coming to this site almost everyday. Now, I know one of reasons why Paul Hiett keeps on coming to the web site almost everyday.

          • Paul Hiett

            If that’s really what you think…wow. But hey, it’s a free country, you think what you want.

          • Crono478

            You are actually welcome to come here everyday. What I’m pointing out is, I notice that you come here to debate with us on specific topics. I was wondering what lead you to do this.

            Do you recall that some people (that I don’t see frequenting here anymore) told me not to stop talking to you because you are a “virulent” atheist and that you will never be “saved”? One of them became really upset when I rebuked them for saying that.

            I remember what I was like before I became saved. It is not too late for you to repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior.

          • Richard

            We’re all sinners. I was a proselytizing atheist for years myself. But God took me to a place where I could only look up. Praise God he did. It’s nice to offer grace, patience, and mercy. But caution and wisdom are also advised.

          • Paul Hiett

            As an atheist, I expect vitriol from religious websites…some, like you, react with more maturity than others, and can provide more thoughtful, robust debates. I welcome the opportunities.
            Just to clarify, I’m not out to convert anyone from their religion. I do maintain a “live and let live” approach to life, especially when it comes to religion. I simply want a society in which belief is supported, but not forced.
            Believe in your religion, and profess it if you feel like it, but don’t use that belief to dictate how others should live. The US is a country that was founded on the backs of hard working people of all cultures, of all faiths. We should be able to respect all beliefs, and treat each other with the same compassion, equality, and kindness we would want to be treated with.

          • Richard

            If you really believe in live and let live, why are you here trying to convince Christians to change their beliefs?

            Your words say one thing, but your behavior says another. If you really were interested in live and let live, you wouldn’t be here trying to change opinions.

            More likely, you want people to adopt your opinion…which is not live and let live…as you suggest.

          • Paul Hiett

            I don’t want to change your beliefs, Richard, I want you to stop using your religion to dictate to others how they should live.
            I don’t understand why you have a hard time with that.

          • Richard

            >I don’t want to change your beliefs, Richard, I want you to stop using your religion to dictate to others how they should live…I don’t understand why you have a hard time with that.

            I don’t. I see that clearly. But you don’t, since your very statement contradicts itself.

          • Paul Hiett

            So you do want to use your religion to dictate how others live their life.
            At least you’re finally being honest.

          • Richard

            You can believe and live how you want. But don’t expect Christians to condone or approve of sin of any kind.

            I don’t believe in the live and let live notion. This is nothing more than moral relativism. As you discovered, while it may sound nice, it doesn’t work and most people who believe in it don’t actually practice it.

            Christians are to represent God on earth…and everything God stands for. That’s what I believe in.

          • Paul Hiett

            Which is all fine and good until you try to tell others how to live. That’s when you’re going to get the pushback.

          • Richard

            If you believe in live and let live, why pushback? You still haven’t answered why you believe one thing and do another?

          • Crono478

            We can’t because we are following Jesus’s command:

            Matthew 28:18-20

            18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.[b]

          • Paul Hiett

            Do you not understand that not everyone shares your belief system? Why should we be subject to rule by anyone’s personal choice of religion?

          • Richard

            If you really believed in live and let live, a Christian view wouldn’t bother you nor would you desire to change it.

            But you really don’t believe in live and let live, do you? It’s believe the way I do or you’re wrong.

          • Crono478

            “Do you not understand that not everyone shares your belief system? ”

            I am aware of this. Romans 3:11 says this:

            11 There is none who understands;
            There is none who seeks after God.

            “Why should we be subject to rule by anyone’s personal choice of religion?”

            This is because you do not really understand that it is not “our personal choice of religion”. It is that Richard and I repented of our sins and trusted in Jesus as our Savior alone. People like us warn that God’s judgment against unrepentant sinners will come.

          • Paul Hiett

            It is, most certainly, a choice…otherwise there wouldn’t be thousands of religions, and tens of thousands of denominations. Your belief that your choice is the true and right one conflicts with the beliefs of other religions who think their choice is the one true religion.
            Ergo, why we have wars over religion…everyone insists they’re right.
            The bottom line? Yes, religion is a choice.

          • Richard

            So is sexual immorality.

          • Crono478

            Out of many religions and thousands of denominations, how many people have you encountered that preaches repentance and remission and that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins and that He is resurrected and is our Living Savior? There are many people who tells me that they are Christians but I see very few of them really do this.

            Have you encountered anyone who does open-air preaching that is like Ray Comfort?

          • Annette Margaret Blanco

            Yes, there are many religions out there but only one man, Jesus Christ died for YOU Paul Hiett! Jesus said that He is the Way, the TRUTH and the LIFE, and that the road is narrow. Not all religions lead to heaven. In fact only one does and that is Christianity. No other god can answer prayer either! There is only the One True God, God almighty. We are not here to argue, but to help you see what is written in God’s Word: “..that all idolaters, murderers, liars, fornicators will end up in the lake of fire….” So many other prophecies came true and Jesus’ Words came true and continue to come true!” Please don’t tempt God!

          • mark

            They don’t understand that… That’s the sad part. They all must live in christian compounds in Mississippi cause I encounter people of all walks of life

          • Tziggy

            Good question.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

          • Tziggy

            So we should live as you believe, is that correct?

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            Then why do gays go to Christian businesses and try to force them to do things against their beliefs? If I went to an atheist business and they said they couldn’t serve me because I am Christian, I would find another business, not bring the government into it.

          • Paul Hiett

            Civil Rights Act of 1964. Read it, learn it, then understand it.

          • MC

            As you must know, atheists only know hypocrisy. They cry for tolerance but they are very intolerant of religious people. In other words, they never practice what they preach

          • MC

            Live and let live, huh? When are you going to start practicing what you preach? Or is this more typical atheist hypocrisy?

          • Lisa

            Even as an atheist, Paul, you are still under the law. Whether or not any Christian points out what sins are wrong there is still a wrong or right and its God who tells us what is wrong and what is right. You don’t have to believe any of it but you are still under the rules (the law) anyway. Maybe you could change every Christians mind about it but even if you were able-you would still be under the law. That’s what God’s word says and even if I weren’t here to say so it’s still true. God has written his law in all our hearts so that no one can say they didn’t know.
            Even if people get there way and are able to live how they want for themselves-God’s law still applies to them-it applies to everyone. Whether people are punished here on earth for any laws they break or not there is a very real punishment waiting for them. No one actually gets away with breaking God’s laws. The punishment is to be thrown into the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. But God who loves us sent His Son who took this punishment for you, for everyone. All you have to do is believe in Jesus. That’s the gospel-the good news-you just have to believe.
            God has His laws but He has also provided a way out so to speak.

          • Tziggy

            Just for purposes of clarity Paul; Do you think Chritains should be forced to accept homosexual behaviour, or abortion and support it with both their tax dollars and business decisions? Do you think the government should step in and penalize those Christains who refuse?

          • Richard

            If that is true, why are you disrespecting Christians?

          • Paul Hiett

            Pot, meet kettle.

          • Paul Hiett

            As I mentioned, my daughter is gay. I’m also an atheist, and believe that everyone should have the right to live their lives free of religion, or full of religion, as long as those beliefs (on either side) do not infringe upon one another.

          • Richard

            > As I mentioned, my daughter is gay. I’m also an atheist, and believe that everyone should have the right to live their lives free of religion, or full of religion, as long as those beliefs (on either side) do not infringe upon one another.

            Then why are you here criticizing religious views? Isn’t that being hypocritical of you?

          • Homer for God

            Maybe you need to take your own advice and stop trying to infringe your beliefs on Christianity. We present a choice and will pray and love you no matter what you choose. You seem to try to force us to change. True Christians are peaceful. We teach to be against hate. God bless

          • Paul Hiett

            All I’m advocating for is that people on both sides simply live and let live. Yes, that means that gay marriage would be legal, as it does NOT infringe upon your religious rights in any way, shape, or form. In case you missed it, you’re the one trying to force gay people to change their lives, not the other way around.

          • James

            “Yes, that means that gay marriage would be legal, as it does NOT infringe upon your religious rights in any way, shape, or form.”

            Oh yes it does! Just ask Aaron and Melissa Klein, the owners of Sweetcakes by Melissa. Ask them how “unaffected” they were by gay marriage. And they’re not the only ones, either!

          • Paul Hiett

            Someone put a gun to their head and forced them to open a business?

          • MC

            Did someone put a gun to the lesbians heads and made it so they couldn’t find another baker to bake their cake, and did that same person put a gun to their head and tell them to sue for damages with 88 separate silly ailments of mental distress because they couldn’t get a cake from this ONE bakery? That must be one tasty cake to fake 88 separate ailments for. Good thing this will be overturned on appeal. But I’m glad it has exposed the gay community to their vindictiveness, including the lesbian teacher who wanted to firebomb the pizza joint, thank God she got fired for it and it will follow her the rest of her life. Good job ladies, well done!!!

          • Paul Hiett

            Civil rights act of 1964. You need to learn why discrimination is not tolerated under the law.

          • MC

            It’s a good thing they served gay people all day everyday so no discrimination happened. You can’t force a business to provide a service if they don’t provide that service to anyone.

          • Annette Margaret Blanco

            Well I don’t see gays acting civilly now a days, when a Christian baker can’t say no to bake them a cake!!!!!!!

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            I used to see signs: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” What happened to that right?

          • Tziggy

            For Christians Marriage is not a right, it’s a Sacrament. No government, no law, no Constitutional amendment will change that. So Mr. Hiett we get back to your well thought out assertion that we should all just live and let live. Do you still stand by that or would you rather make Christians live by your religion?

            It would seem you can’t straddle this fence any longer.

          • Tziggy

            Ummmm, don’t look now Paul but your hypocrisy is showing.

          • Annette Margaret Blanco

            That’s right. Why should gays infringe on Christians rights to live for God? Gays may need to have their own communities altogether and their own businesses. God says homosexuality is sin, and I believe Christian businesses should not have to serve them! We will have to answer to our God for what we condone or not condone! simple as that!

          • Deny

            I told a lie last week…so I guess I sinned so no Christian business should serve me if what you say is true.

          • MC

            So, you advocate for a, “live and let live” world as long as gay marriage is legal? So, you just want it YOUR way? How about a live and let live world as long as gay marriage is illegal? Do you see your hypocrisy in your argument? Why don’t you ask the Cristian bakers, florists, wedding photographers, T-Shirt printers, pizza joint owners if “gay marriage” has infringed on their rights, lives, businesses, and livelihood? I know your liberal atheist hypocrisy, live and let live means to live according to YOUR worldview.

          • Paul Hiett

            Since gay marriage does no harm to anyone, actively working to prevent it shows that Christians like you do not want to live in peace and harmony with anyone else.

          • MC

            I’ll repeat it in case you have a comprehension problem, I know your liberal atheist hypocrisy, live and let live means to live according to YOUR worldview.

          • Annette Margaret Blanco

            Gay marriage DOES harm others! The kids they adopt, the lifestyle is repulsive, and it harms us Christians who try to warn you of God’s judgment on sin. We try to warn you and get you to repent and change your lifestyles so that WE do not have to hear one day from our God that we didn’t do enough to tell you that its wrong and that sin cannot enter heaven; that there is a fire for those who shake their fist at God and think they can live this way!

          • Jade

            Maybe you should take off your religious blinders and see the truth. You say that Christians teach against hate? I have read so many hateful comments from people that claim they are Christians over the past several months on this website.

          • Homer for God

            I’m talking those who follow the Word properly. Of course there are those who claim they are Christians who hate; that just means they do not follow the true teachings thus are hypocritical. Of course you know like every other group (Muslims, atheists, LGBT, etc.) that will always have those who claim they are part of the group or use the group’s name to hide behind their hateful ways. I’m saying as TRUE followers of Jesus are taught to love one another as God loves us, not judge others on their choices and pray for everyone whether they believe or not. I hope this clarifies my comment. God bless.

          • Tziggy

            Here’s the part I don’t understand Paul. I have four kids. If one were (I use the phrase same sex attracted as gay is merely a marketing strategy for immoral behavior) I would be empathetic for the burden that that attraction creates, and try to help him/her learn how to cope with that burden. However, I would no sooner advocate acting on that attraction than I would advocate sex before marraige, smoking, drug abuse or a life of crime. Religous views aside statistically those who ACT on same sex attraction suffer both mentally and physically. The secular stats are all out there. There is a better way to implement live and let live than allowing a loved one to self destruct.

          • Paul Hiett

            And when that child says to you that they have no feelings at all towards the opposite sex, and that they are perfectly normal in every way, will you disown them as so many Christian families have to gay kids? Or, will you love them, cherish them, and support them no matter what anyone else (or any book) says?

          • Tziggy

            Paul, I’m not trying to be dismissive when I say I think my post was pretty clear, but I’ll try again. This time I’ll bring in other subjects to elucidate my thinking. And forget that I’m a Christian for a minute (and a Catholic Christian to boot – the worst kind) I started out from an Atheist view point before I embraced Catholicism. I don’t expect you to embrace my religious beliefs or make decisions based on arguments from those beliefs. I speak solely from logic on all of these. If you won’t work within the bounds of logic we have nothing to discuss.

            No. I would not disown a daughter or son if they had same sex attraction. I’m a dad. I love my kids like a thousand burning suns. I suspect you do too. Neither would I condone them engaging in behavior I knew to be harmful to them. Love is real simple this way. It apply’s to my kids and yours.

            Abortion is linked to a 25% increase in the risk to get the most aggressive form of breast cancer – All debate about religion and viability of a fetus aside; it hurts women. FACT I would vigorously defend my daughters against the harm this would to to them, regardless of how they feel.

            Birth Control is rated by the World Health Organization as a GROUP I carcinogen along with asbestos and radium. I might point out, the W.H.O is no friend to religion. It hurts women. FACT. I would vigorously defend my daughters against the harm this would to to them, regardless of how they feel. As an aside: Look at yearly stats related to Divorce (tell me that’s been good for kids, adults and society), abortion, Cancer, single parent families, poverty and std’s. Juxtapose that information with the wide spread acceptance of birth control since the early 1960’s.

            You don’t have to be religious to know what’s good for your daughter Paul. You just need to think. Hanging onto idea’s because they are PC or anti religion is going to leave you high and dry.

          • Oboehner

            You said you weren’t gay.

          • Annette Margaret Blanco

            Gays will never be egual in God’s eyes. Its not just a civil issue, its a MORAL issue! God did not design men to marry men, or women to marry women! God is the final authority on this issue, not us!

          • Deina

            You seem to be talking about it one hell of a lot more than He ever did!

        • Ambulance Chaser

          You just answered your own question.

          • Crono478

            Am I only one notice that you, MC and The Last Trump tend to come at around 7 to 9 pm to reply to our posts and support your friends such as Paul?

          • MC

            Where and when did I ever support an atheist who supports perpetual sin as Paul does? Considering I’m a Christian who’s strongly against the sin of homosexuality and “gay marriage”. And it’s only 2:40 pm where I live. You must be confused.

          • Crono478

            Yes, I got confused. Forgive me, I just edited my statement above.

          • MC

            No problem, Brother.

          • MC

            I also don’t know why you lumped The Last Trump in either, he is also against the sin of homosexuality and gay marriage. He never agrees with Paul.

          • Crono478

            I just read your statement now. I edited my statement again. I was a little tired. I’ll be more careful when reading people’s comments. I am an idiot, 🙂

        • MC

          Because he’s sad and lonely. He is to be pitied.

      • Oboehner

        How about a necro or a pedo?

        • Paul Hiett

          Completely irrelevant. Neither of those have anything to do with sexual orientation.

          • The Last Trump

            Sure they do. Both would assure you that they were “born that way”. Sounds familiar doesn’t it?
            When it comes to sexuality, there’s simply no accounting for taste.
            People are into what they are into, and they are absolutely convinced that that is just the way they are. Period. No matter how immoral, depraved or illegal their desire happens to be.
            You know it. And I know it. Time to call a spade a spade.
            Any number of things can trigger sexual fetishes and “orientations”. People will even sleep with both genders, often at the SAME time. Orientation? Please. It’s all about pleasure. In any and all of its sick and twisted forms. Hedonism 101.

          • Paul Hiett

            Last I check, sexual orientation did not include “pedophilia” or “necrophilia”, so…no.

          • The Last Trump

            Keep checking back.
            These politically correct sexual definitions are changing BY THE MINUTE these days! Be sure to stay on top of new developments!
            You saw the THREE guys who got married, right? Anything goes!
            Yeeee Haaaawww!
            2015. “If it feels good, DO IT!” 😉

          • MisterPine

            Three guys who got married? Wow. Well, that’s a regular everyday occurrence, isn’t it? One that all gay people are just ITCHING to do?

            Why don’t you just do what those Christian pastors I’ve linked you to several times have done, and admit you hate gay people and think they should be killed?

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            We are anxious for their souls.

          • MisterPine

            I’ll bet!

          • MisterPine

            QUOTE SUBMITTED, Rumpy! And congrats, one of your craziest and most incoherent rants YET!

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            They feed the wrong wolf.

          • Oboehner

            Every bit as much as gay.

          • Tziggy

            Really? It’s most certainly an orientation. Be careful what you fight for Paul. Once you open that door you don’t have any idea what’s going to walk through. Welcome to the world your belief system is creatiing!

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            Ted Bundy got his jollies by killing the women. Is that “an alternate lifestyle?”

      • Annette Margaret Blanco

        Yes, they feel contrary to the sex they were born to be. But I do have compassion for hermaphrodites. That must be very difficult to deal with.

    • Starla Anne Lowry

      Transsexuals are not homosexuals. You need to learn the difference. Many transsexuals are a-sexual. I do not judge anyone because Jesus told me not to judge. God will judge in the proper time and I am NOT God. Whether you think you are God and authorized to judge, that is your business. But again, I am not God.

      • MC

        We ARE commanded to judge ALL things.

        • Annette Margaret Blanco

          That’s right in the New Testament. We will judge the nations Jesus said.

        • MisterPine

          And that’s why no one likes you.

          • MC

            It’s ok, unlike you, I’m not empty inside and desperate to be liked by no name anonymous people. I feel pity for you that this is what your life is about.

          • MisterPine

            If you want to be despised just like the Westboro Baptist Loonies go right ahead. Just don’t be surprised as Christianity gets more outdated, irrelevant, and loathed because it refuses to stop the hatred, bigotry and intolerance.

          • Richard

            Christianity will never become outdated, since God doesn’t change. The only thing that will change is fewer and fewer people will accept God because they want to be their own gods, which is representative of the most egregious sin.

            As the apostle John said so aptly, “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

          • MisterPine

            If Christianity continues down its “born again”/ evangelical / fundamentalist / radical right wing path, which is a peculiarly American phenomenon, it will absolutely meet with resistance from atheists, people of other faiths, and even mainstream Christians for its rigidly intolerant (and, it needs to be said, un-Christlike) and hateful position. John Lennon even made a similar comment back in the 1960s – time seems to be proving him correct.

            I think most people would call the Westboro Baptist style of Christianity completely unacceptable, so why are so many of you embracing it?

          • Richard

            > If Christianity continues down its “born again”

            That’s your opinion. If you check, you’ll see it is atheism that is declining at a rapid rate.

            > John Lennon even made a similar comment back in the 1960s – time seems to be proving him correct.

            Not at all. That’s your personal opinion. The facts speak for themselves.

            The only reason some people reject God isn’t because of anything but personal pride. The more arrogant society gets, the more they want to be their own gods.

            But God is good at getting people’s attention and wiping away their pride.

            Self-righteous Babylon thought it was invincible. It’s a distant memory now.

            Self-righteous Rome thought it was invincible. Another distant memory.

            Self-righteous Hitler thought he was invincible. We know how that ended for him.

            The Ottoman empire thought it was invincible. It’s just a bad memory.

            And so on.

            God is still in control and reigns in evil when he thinks it’s time. Believing otherwise is naive and short-sighted.

          • Don Jump

            John Lennon was a piece of shit.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            A child wants a gun. The mother says, sure, why not? The dad says no. Who is the responsible parent?

          • MisterPine

            Is this an attempt to compare homosexuality with playing with guns?

          • MC

            You’re the only intolerant, bigoted, lonely, irrelevant loonie here. You’re no different than the Westboro Baptist Cult.

          • MisterPine

            Yeah? Which one of us has a religion telling them to discriminate, hate and beat up homosexuals? Give you a hint, it’s not me.

          • MC

            I don’t know any Christians who hate and beat up gay people. I know atheists that have. I also know atheists are also against gay marriage, they even gave their own Facebook page. Your argument fails. You’re the one who hates and is bigoted against Christians since you think that Christians go around beating gay people up. Like I said, you’re exactly like the Westboro Baptist Cult, there is NO difference, except you’re a fundy atheist. You should take a course in logic and critical thinking so you won’t keep embarrassing yourself with your failed arguments and hypocrisy, little man.

          • MisterPine

            “I don’t know any Christians who hate and beat up gay people. I know atheists that have.”

            That’s probably a lie. This forum is crawling with people like you who hate gay people and would deny them the same rights other people enjoy. You might not beat them up physically but you beat up ON them when you call them perverts and degenerates when all they’ve done is fall in love.

            “You’re the one who hates and is bigoted against Christians since you think that Christians go around beating gay people up.”

            Beating up ON. And you do.

            “you’re a fundy atheist”

            There is no such thing as a fundy atheist. I have no holy book and no leader. You fail. Your hate and name calling are duly noted.

          • MC

            Sorry no, I don’t know any Christians who beat up gay people. Are you telling me you’re clairvoyant? And again, I hate no one, just because I don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean I hate them, that’s a failed argument on your part. Do you agree with everyone? Do you hate them because you don’t agree with them? If you do then you have serious mental problems. Were you beat up because you’re gay?
            Can you show me verifiable evidence that I said gay people were, “perverts” and, “degenerates”? Please show me the post? Did someone call you a pervert and a degenerate because you’re gay and all you want to do is fall in love with a man?

          • MisterPine

            You Christians beat up gay people daily. You might not do it with physical violence, but your words can be just as hurtful, your actions where you deny them the rights to marry the people they love, and your campaigns to keep them marginalized.

            I wasn’t beaten up and I’m not gay. Doesn’t mean I don’t have compassion, which is what I thought Christians were supposed to have.

          • MC

            Of course you’re gay, no one has this much passion for homosexuality but a homosexual. Maybe you’re a latent homosexual but you’re definitely gay.

          • MisterPine

            Do you think you’re HURTING me, casting some kind of stone of shame, by calling me gay? Couldn’t care less if I were gay, but as it happens I’m not, and I have known me a little longer and a little better than you have.

          • MC

            I would have to think you’re somehow relevant to care about you. I don’t. But I get it, “You’re queer and you’re here”. Yawn…

          • MisterPine

            Lame

          • Don Jump

            Maybe if some of these sodomites woke up and realized that they are damned if they don’t stop their filth,they’d find more people willing to help them reform.

          • Don Jump

            Oh because we stick to our guns,and don’t pussy out like liberals,leftists,and other nonbelievers?I’ll take persecution over comfortable sinning any day.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            THAT is also in The Bible. Thank for fulfilling it.

          • MisterPine

            How convenient for you.

      • Annette Margaret Blanco

        Starla, we don’t judge homosexuals because God already did, beginning with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes there are hermaphrodites because when sin entered the world, the blood lines got corrupted!

  • FoJC_Forever

    This type of behavior can be rooted in the presence of demons twisting a person’s view of themselves. Individual situations vary, and different families have different curses and other spiritual activity passed down from generation to generation. The Devil uses the brokenness of mankind’s condition to fill the heads of those who will embrace the feelings and influences of a perverted society around them with thoughts contrary to His Word, which is Reality.

    These type of issues can develop in children as a result of rejecting either mother, in the case of a female, or father, in the case of a male. The female feels alienated from her mother, or doesn’t like her, or sees her as weak or domineering and doesn’t want to be like her, so she starts to want to be a boy. The male feels alienated from his father, or doesn’t like him, or sees him as weak or overly aggressive, so he starts wanting to be a female so he won’t be like his father. These are just a few examples. It can also be planted in a child as a result of the treatment from other children in school or neighborhood, when parental influence is weaker than society’s influence on a child.

    More and more of these perversions will be celebrated by those who have set themselves as worthy to determine good and evil, right and wrong. The Time is short, and Satan’s influence is growing exponentially in the earth.

    A female soul cannot exist in a male body, and vice versa. God doesn’t look down and create every individual born into the earth. He created the process of procreation in mankind, and it doesn’t mix genders. Jenner’s view of God is not just distorted, but it is founded in a Lie from the father of lies.

    • Paul Hiett

      You just claimed that gay people and transgenders are possessed by demons.
      Are you going to ask for exorcisms now? Maybe they could bleed the bad humors out?

      • Homer for God

        Reread that comment Paul. Here didn’t say those who practice homosexuality or believe they are transgender are possessed by demons, but influenced by demons. God bless.

        • amostpolitedebate

          Yes. This is a very important distinction to make.

      • Frank Cartwright

        use leeches and magic words, like praying!

        • FoJC_Forever

          Magic, as referred to in modern fiction, is not actually the magic (sorcery) practiced by pagans in ancient times. It’s called science and medicine in modern nowadays.

        • Don Jump

          Piss off you heathen.

    • Starla Anne Lowry

      If God created the process of procreation and procreation does not mix genders, and the body indicate the correct gender, how about the hermaphrodites and the intersexed (A woman with XY chromosome or a man with XX). Somehow your Biblical theory does not hold water. Mankind was created perfect in the beginning, but sin caused problems. Man was not created with cancer, blindness, lame, or any other problem. Likewise, neither gender being different from the body. There are transgendered Christians who seemingly love God more than other Christians. I would be careful about what I would say about God’s creation. Satan did not create us.

      • Richard

        God doesn’t create people to sin. No matter what the birth defect, sinful behavior is still a choice.

        • Frank Cartwright

          so the paranoid schizophrenic who hears voices to hurt and does made the choice? really?

          • Richard

            Do you want to edit your comment so it makes sense?

          • Frank Cartwright

            re read it is not that hard.

          • Richard

            Is english your second language?

          • Frank Cartwright

            yes,next moronic question!

          • Richard

            Out of the heart the mouth speaks. That vileness won’t go away by itself. It is often at the root of domestic violence amoug gays.

          • Frank Cartwright

            you missed spelled among! is English…….

          • Frank Cartwright

            and gays are vastly the minority. so how do they lead the nation in violence? sounds like some one lied!

          • Richard

            The smallest population with the highest incidence of domestic violence. Not an award to be proud of.

          • Frank Cartwright

            why do u care about gays? curious?

          • Richard

            I care about the things God cares about. Sinners is one.

          • Frank Cartwright

            you sound like you live in the 15th century.why? are you going to punish sinners? why don’t you mind yourself and HELP OTHERS,ANIMALS ALSO.

          • Patricia

            it is still a choice Frank. Did anyone hold a gun to their head and even if they did, it would still be a choice no matter who or what may have influenced the action.Sad to say but it is what it is.

      • Don Jump

        We exist in a FALLEN world,is why.Read your Scripture.We werent made to age and die originally.Aging has been shown to be a mutation, that has the characteristics of a progressive degenerative disease.So,if that is the case any not all these other types of disorders?Mutations with spiritual dimensions to their manifestation. A nd consequent mental and behavioral aberrations.

    • Frank Cartwright

      DEMONS!??!!! what century is this?

      • Richard

        Demons, you don’t know they exist? Where have you been??

        • Frank Cartwright

          with the angels,leprechauns,fairies,unicorns resurrected dead…..

          • Paul Hiett

            And vampires, and werewolves, and mermaids…

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            I see you haven’t heard of NDE’s.

          • Frank Cartwright

            don’t forget those pesky gargoyles,witches,loch ness monster,and Frankenstein!

          • Willem Toerien

            Agreed! The fact that people still believe atheists exists is astonishing to say the least!

      • FoJC_Forever

        It is the Year of Our LORD, 2015. Jesus dealt with demons on a regular basis.

        • Frank Cartwright

          i believe we later would call them psychological conditions,probably cured with modern medicine.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Medicine doesn’t cure what you refer to as “psychological conditions”, when they are actually the presence and influence of demons (whether possession or oppression). Disabling or hindering parts of the brain can keep the demon’s ‘pushes’ from effecting the person in a specific manner, but the demon doesn’t go away. If necessary, they (or others) will just effect the person in a different way.

          • Frank Cartwright

            are you putting me on?

          • amostpolitedebate

            Paranoid Schizophrenia is a hell of a drug

      • Don Jump

        Time means squat to spirits.Demons predate us by millennia, that’s why they Trump us as humans on knowledge and deceit.And God?He changes NOT.

    • FoJC_Forever

      Demons have been active for millennia. Only through the Power and Authority of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, can a person become free of demonic influence.

      • Frank Cartwright

        SEEK HELP NOW!

        • Richard

          Yes, you should.

          • Frank Cartwright

            that is not childish?

          • Richard

            A fact.

          • MC

            Frank definitely has mental health issues.

          • Frank Cartwright

            please explain.

    • amostpolitedebate

      Oh, leave the poor woman alone. If s/he wants to be a woman let him/her be a woman. It’s not like it hurts anyone. You can’t even use the old “hate the sin not the sinner” canard since they aren’t actually “doing” anything sinful. Just be happy that they’ve found peace and focus on something more productive.

      • FoJC_Forever

        He is doing something sinful. Bruce Jenner is lying about God.

        Your authority ends under your mouth. God’s extends into your spirit, soul, and body.

        • amostpolitedebate

          That seems like an awful harsh assessment to me. Is it not possible that this is a sincerely held religious belief that you simply happen to disagree with?

          • FoJC_Forever

            No, it is not. Bruce Jenner doesn’t know God nor His Son, Jesus (the) Christ. He is lost in Sin at present.

          • amostpolitedebate

            Wait, what? I’m not sure you understood my question.

            You said that Bruce Jenner was lying. Which would mean that they are willfully misrepresenting the truth. What makes you so sure that Bruce doesn’t actually believe the things that she is saying? And why is it so terrible for somebody to have an interpretation of the bible that you disagree with?

          • Don Jump

            He/she/it is doing what seems right in their own eyes.God says that makes them a fool.

      • Willem Toerien

        The law states explicitly that a man that is being feminine is wrong. But let’s pick another law and use your reasoning…

        Oh, leave the poor man alone. If he wants to lie with animals let him lie with animals then. It’s not like it hurts anyone. You can’t even use the old “hate the sin not the sinner” canard since they aren’t actually ‘doing’ anything sinful. Just be happy that he’s found peace and focus on something more productive.

        What you or I think is right and wrong is irrelevant.

        • amostpolitedebate

          On the contrary. Even if there is a God, whether we follow them or now is a moral choice we make for ourselves. If such a God is unjust but you follow them anyways out of fear punishment or need for social acceptance then that says something about you morally.

          In the end, our personal moralities are VERY relevant no matter what the greater picture.

          • Willem Toerien

            I say transgender is wrong. You say it’s right. We both can’t be right at the same time. Therefore personal morality is not truth. Only an unjust god would proclaim our personal morality as truth.

            But you’re right on one thing, we choose to obey. You are servants unto whom you obey.

          • ComeOnPeople!

            And how do you know if you are moral or not? Is murder ok? How about lying? Cheating? Having sex with your sister? How about extortion or blackmail ? Only a moral Creator can impart unto HIS creation morality. Morality does not come out of thin air. Morality is a code of conduct. Our laws were made based upon GOD’s code of conduct.

    • Starla Anne Lowry

      I would be careful about judging. There are transsexuals who are Christians and possess the Holy Spirit. God created mankind perfect in body, but anyone can see humans are not born with perfect bodies. The disciples asked Jesus one time about a man who was born blind, “did this man sin or his parents that he was born blind?” Jesus answered that neither the man or his parents sinned, but that he was born blind so that the power of God could be demonstrated. A person born with a mixture of sex hormones and can still praise the Lord can be a witness to the saving power of God. It is a medical fact that some people are born both male and female. God is not limited to those with perfect bodies. I think it is okay to express an opinion as to what we believe, but to refer to a person as being of Satan is judging and Jesus warned against that. Jesus referred to a person who showing evidence that they have the Holy Spirit and is accused of being of Satan, the accuser is in danger of blasphamy of the Holy Spirit. Others may not fear God, but I do.

      • FoJC_Forever

        I’m not the Judge, God is the Judge. I listen to His Word.

        Those born with mixed genitalia are one issue, and it’s completely different from those who just “feel” like they should be the opposite gender.

        If a person is born with only one type of genitalia, then they are that gender, regardless of how they feel.

        Follow Jesus, find Truth.

  • Brenda Golden

    Just another way of getting attention. Mental illness is an ugly thing.

    • Richard

      I wouldn’t say ugly, but definitely mental illness.

    • Frank Cartwright

      then why are people condemning him? where is your christ like compassion of others? hypocrite!

  • Elph

    How sad that his identity is so consumed used by sexuality…then again he makes his living by playacting.

  • Rboo

    I blame Kris Kardashian and her years of emasculating him on that reality show.

  • James

    He’s wrong! God is not the author of confusion!

    • Frank Cartwright

      and you know how?

  • Don Hamilton

    There is a reason why most prestigious medical facilities do not perform gender reassignment surgery. Studies have shown that outcomes are not good. Many ruined and unhappy lives. We need to pray for Mr Jenner. I suspect this is creating a great amount of pain for him. God bless him.

    • Paul Hiett

      Out of curiosity, which of the “prestigious medical facilities” are you referring to?

      • Don Hamilton

        Most hospitals are Catholic or Protestant founded, they do not provide this service. Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Mayo, Columbia you don’t hear them commenting because it is politically incorrect to state that it is impossible to make a gender change with drugs and surgery

    • Frank Cartwright

      he never hated gays either

  • mark

    It’s a beautiful thing to see so many sinless Christians joining each other to make fun of and condemn someone they don’t even know. It’s definitely what Jesus would have done.

    • Richard

      Jesus never condoned sin.

    • Frank Cartwright

      they love to condemn! don’t they?

      • Richard

        God condemns. We merely point out what God has to say on the matter.

        • Frank Cartwright

          why don’t u let god speak FOR ONCE!

          • Richard

            He already has. But to hear what he has to say, you have to seek what he says.

          • Frank Cartwright

            blah blah blah! i do not mean make pretend spoke i mean really speak you cretin!

          • Richard

            Your comments are juvenile. You obviously haven’t learned how to get along with others. Are you gay? That seems to be a common characteristic: hostility, anger, frustration, selfishness, self-centeredness…

          • Frank Cartwright

            you show signs or arrogance and the mind set of someone from the bronze age.

          • Richard

            Are you gay?

          • Frank Cartwright

            interested?

          • Richard

            Interested in your answer. Are you gay?

          • Frank Cartwright

            you first!

          • Richard

            I’m not gay. You?

          • Frank Cartwright

            what are you wearing?

  • MC

    No, Satan has given him the spirit of confusion.

    • Frank Cartwright

      god made Satan

      • Richard

        God created all things and beings, including satan. Satan chose to sin. Don’t blame God for satan’s decisions.

        • Frank Cartwright

          why? he created him and knew beforehand of his plans to hurt humanity! doesn’t he love us?

          • Richard

            God gave us free will BECAUSE he loves us. But he lets us use it whichever way we decide.

            But there are consequences for our decisions, and those consequences come due on the day he decides. Choose wisely.

          • Frank Cartwright

            free will is bull we we did not even chose to be created,all the rest is conversation.

          • Richard

            What’s causing you to post your comments?

          • Frank Cartwright

            that is my business.

          • Richard

            If it’s not free will, then what?

          • Frank Cartwright

            robotic live that were predestined.bible says that god’s will over rules our free will ultimately.

          • Richard

            > bible says that god’s will over rules our free will ultimately.

            No it doesn’t.

            You are demonstrating your free will…yet you don’t believe you have any. Isn’t that a contradiction? Illogical?

          • Frank Cartwright

            yes it does .we can choose but if it goes against god’s will we are condemned forever in agony,so is it really free? and again did we choose to be here?

          • Richard

            > we can choose but if it goes against god’s will we are condemned forever in agony,

            Do you want to find the verse that you got that from?

            It’s God’s will that all be saved. But he leaves the decision up to each of us.

            > again did we choose to be here?

            Your parents did. If you want to blame someone, blame them. You will be to blame if you have children. Can you accept that responsibility?

          • Frank Cartwright

            first, here are some scriptural quotes about Predestination(no human free will)____
            Jeremiah states that God knew us even before we were born in chapter
            one, verse 4-5: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I
            formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart,
            I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”______Isaiah 43:7 also presents evidence that God knew us before hand and had
            plans for us, “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my
            glory, whom I formed and made”.____I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.”____book of Ephesians Verses 4-11; “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to
            be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he PREDESTINED us for
            adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
            pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has
            freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through
            his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of
            God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,
            he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good
            pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the
            times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and
            on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED
            according to the plan of him who works out everything in
            conformity with the purpose of his will.” _____THESE PROVE, ( YOUR FAITH’S ON WORDS) THAT WE HAVE NO FREE WILL.

          • Frank Cartwright

            Do you want to find the verse that you got that from(condemned)?_______John 3:18 :”Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God”._____
            John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”_______ Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned._______
            Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom
            of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
            On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
            your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in
            your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart
            from me, you workers of lawlessness.’_______

            2 Peter 2:1-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will
            be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
            heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon
            themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and
            because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed
            they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long
            ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed
            them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he
            did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of
            righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly_______

          • Frank Cartwright

            Revelation 20:15
            And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire._____

            Matthew 10:28
            And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell._______

            Mark 9:43-48
            And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
            you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the
            unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is
            better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into
            hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for
            you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be
            thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not
            quenched.’_____POINT PROVEN!!!!

          • Frank Cartwright

            WHO DID MY VERY FIRST ANCESTOR ASK TO BE CREATED OR NOT?

          • Frank Cartwright

            HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? QUIET NOW HUH?

          • Frank Cartwright

            Ephesians 1: 5-12
            “Praise His Glory”
            He DESTINED us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of HIS WILL,
            to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in
            the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the
            forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
            which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and
            insight the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS PURPOSE which HE SET FORTH in Christ as a PLAN for the fulness of time, to
            unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.IN HIM ,
            according to the PURPOSE OF HIM who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of HIS WILL we who first hoped in Christ have been DESTINED and APPOINTED to live for the praise of his glory._____I THINK I EMBARRASSED AND CRUSHED YOU ENOUGH FOR ONE DAY! CHEER UP! YOU CAN ALWAYS LOOK FORWARD TO A WONDERFUL LIFE AFTER DEATH IN YOUR HEAVEN FAIRY TALE!

          • Frank Cartwright

            Ephesians 6:5-8
            “Be Obedient”
            Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and
            trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; not in the way of
            eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God
            from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and
            not to men, knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the
            same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

          • Frank Cartwright

            one more! i just can’t stop!___

            Romans 8:27-31
            “Hear Your Calling”
            And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the
            Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
            We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him,
            those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he
            foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in
            order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those
            whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also
            justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then
            shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?________boy how dumb to you feel now?

          • Frank Cartwright

            oh richy! where are you?????????

      • MC

        Yes, what’s your point?

        • Frank Cartwright

          are you serious? all this talk from Christians about how their god hates evil and how we must fight demons and satan.according to the bible god made the devil knowing in advance his plans to plague humanity and created him any way.what a load of crap.

  • http://GREATSITE.COM/ John Lawton Jeffcoat III

    Behold the amateur “theology” of Bruce Jenner. Bruce believes his god didn’t make a mistake by making him male… but rather… Bruce says his god was just playing a cruel joke on him, by forcing the wrong gender upon him and then laughing in evil glee, “let’s see how he does with that!” (to quote Jenner). That’s Bruce Jenner’s god, as described by Bruce Jenner. What do you say to such an outlandish belief?
    Russell Moore has been very kind in withholding condemnation and judgement, and instead pointing out how we all are less than what God wants us to be… how we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That is very true. We must be careful however, to not allow that kind spirit that Russell Moore extends, to be twisted into a spirit of acceptance and accommodation for that which is grotesquely wrong.

    • Frank Cartwright

      i would say to you STOP JUDGING! isn’t that your god’s cruel job? why do you care what others do? it does not affect you!

      • Richard

        > it does not affect you!

        Of course it does. Are you that naive?

        • Frank Cartwright

          that is not an answer my ignorant foe

          • Richard

            That is an answer. You just don’t like it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            it is simply a non answer! as in nor info or opinion.say it does is not a intelligent reply

          • Richard

            Ills of homosexuality:
            – highest incidence of suicide
            – highest incidence of domestic violence
            – highest incidence of STDs
            – highest incidence of relationship instability
            – profound negative effect on children
            – highest incidence of child abuse

            And about a bazillion others.

          • Frank Cartwright

            all the more reason to be compassionate you dope! they were born that way,there life was made hard by your god,give them a break. highest incidence of child abuse–highest incidence of domestic violence–profound negative effect on children .i disagree

          • Richard

            How can you blame someone you don’t believe in? Isn’t that illogical?

          • Frank Cartwright

            i am using your beliefs to make you look stupid and illogical.

          • Richard

            It’s not working. But it is showing how confused you are.

          • Frank Cartwright

            i will keep trying

          • Richard

            No point. No one, maybe except you, is buying it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            will see

          • Richard

            Do you know why atheism occupies such a small percentage of the population? Because very few people buy into it. That number is shrinking, and will rapidly shrink over the next number of years.

            Atheism is a dying breed.

          • Frank Cartwright

            atheism is a dying breed because the world(your god created) is a horrible place getting worse all the time. religion offers people comforting fairy tales of a happy(for a few) afterlife and being reunited with our loved one. baloney! it takes courage and character to live in this mess without the hand holding of the church with it’s cpmforting fables,you must be an adult.that is why,fear(usually of death) wins over common sense and brains.

          • El_Tigre_Loco

            Oh, don’t keep on. You are already trying.

          • Frank Cartwright

            thanks.

          • Willem Toerien

            @disqus_hvgixbDtVN:disqus, what @frank_cartwright:disqus is saying that his opinions according to him is intelligent and because you don’t agree with him, you’re not. The term is “self-righteous” meaning, “I, ME, say what is right and wrong and if you don’t agree with MY opinion, you’re wrong.”

    • Don Jump

      Actually,I’d call that blasphemy,and Heresy.

  • Jo Bird

    Look at all these licensed psychologists here speaking on a subject they found out about 3 days ago! Bravo. None of you know Bruce, you don’t know what he’s gone through, just because his experience isnt your experience doesn’t mean you need to ridicule and condemn him. All these comments are reminding me why I left the church. Nobody likes self-righteous, holier than thou Christians.

    • Richard

      God doesn’t like sin. No matter what Bruce has gone through, sin is still sin. Rather than suffering with his gender confusion, he should seek help and deal with his issues. There is no excuse for sin.

      > Nobody likes self-righteous
      Aren’t you being self-righteous for your comments against Christians?

    • Frank Cartwright

      AMEN!!!!!

  • Lisa

    We shouldn’t overlook the power of influence.

  • Luisa48

    It’s obvious that God meant for a man to marry a women. He made a woman with female organs and a man with male organs. Homosexuality his a perversion and an abomination to God.

  • Richard

    Harvey Kronos, a transgender, finds God then returns to heterosexual. Says God set him free from his sexual identity issues.

    God is the answer to sin. Without God, we are helpless victims of sin. With God, we can overcome.

    • Frank Cartwright

      well by that factitious bull,all non Christians would be gay,transgendered or bisexual! do not let one person dictate the rule of reality.

      • Richard

        It’s not bull. You just choose not to believe it.

        All of us are sinners. Without God, we can’t help ourselves. We go with our desires unbridled.

        Gays are desirous of ss relationships. Trans are confused with their own identity and seek biological solutions to psychological problems.

        Murderers are selfish. Ped o files are addicted to children. Adulterers desire something new. On it goes.

        Sin is at the root. Without God, we are helpless to control ourselves.

        • Frank Cartwright

          “We go with our desires unbridled”.____but enough talk of priests! Christians are callous,judgmental,self righteous,arrogant,ignorant,non evolved,hypocrites that only care about themselves and their invisible super dad.

          • Richard

            We care about Godly matters. You care about yourself.

            Jesus came to save us from ourselves. You can either choose the gift or reject it. That’s up to you.

            But don’t think you’ll escape his judgement on the matter. You aren’t God. He is. His rules reign. Yours don’t.

          • Frank Cartwright

            why does an all powerful creator of ALL NEED YOUR HELP RICHY?

          • Richard

            He doesn’t need it at all. But chooses to involve us. I like that.

          • Frank Cartwright

            WHY DOESN’T GODS INVOLVE HIMSELF AND FEED STARVING DYING BABIES,RAPED WOMAN AND THE SLAVE TRADE AND STOP WORRYING ABOUT ONE’S SEXUAL NATURE FIRST YOU SIMPLETON.

          • Richard

            What are you doing to stop it? Do you not think there is enough people on earth to make a difference?

          • Frank Cartwright

            not my world not my mess not my responsibility.BUT I STILL DO HELP WITH MONEY AND PETITIONS AND THE SPREADING OF KNOWLEDGE WITH INFO TO HELP. WHAT HAS GOD DONE EXCEPT MAKE IT AND WATCH?

          • Richard

            > not my world not my mess not my responsibility

            And there you have it.

            > WHAT HAS GOD DONE EXCEPT MAKE IT AND WATCH?

            Do you think it’s logical to blame someone you don’t believe is real?

          • Frank Cartwright

            your taking my first line out of context you fool.again i am using your faith to show how ridiculous you are.

          • Richard

            > your taking my first line out of context you fool.

            I copy/pasted your line exactly as stated. You stated it. Or did you mean something else?

            > i am using your faith to show how ridiculous you are.

            By blaming someone you don’t believe is real? That doesn’t reflect well on you. It has nothing to do with me.

          • Frank Cartwright

            the first line was preceded by my contributions are you simple? what has god done?

          • Richard

            If you carefully read your original comment, you’d see that it contradicts itself.

            > what has god done?

            Created 7 billion plus people to fix the problem. Are you doing your part? If so, get on your neighbors to do theirs.

          • Frank Cartwright

            more like created 7 billion plus people to create and exacerbate the problems!

  • Richard

    Gender confusion isn’t a matter of biology, but psychology. You don’t correct the problem by trying to change the biological, but by dealing with the psychological.

    • Paul Hiett

      Tell us all about how well “reparative therapy” works, Richard, since you seem to be such an expert on it.

      • Richard

        It works well when it is a supported therapy:

        “Homosexuality is not an affliction like mental retardation or cancer; it is a group of problems, which together produce homosexual attractions and behavior.” – Alan Medinger, ex-gay

        “I worked to overcome feelings of inadequacy and incompetence as a man. As I worked with my counselor to fill my emotional needs, extinguish harmful behaviors, and heal emotional wounds, I noticed my homosexual compulsions becoming less intense. With time, they began to subside. Then, subtly, I noticed heterosexual feelings starting to emerge. These new feelings grew slowly as I continued progressing through the recovery process.” – “Homosexuality: Symptoms & Free Agency”, Floyd and Kae Godfrey

        “It has been seventeen years since I resolved my homosexual problems. I use that word purposely. I am not suppressing the feelings. I have filled the underlying needs that created the homosexual attractions, and the problems are resolved. I am happy to say I no longer struggle with homosexuality. It no longer controls my life.” – Jason Park, author

        “Born That Way? A true story of overcoming same-sex attraction” – Erin Eldridge

        Books written by ex-gay authors:
        – Beyond Gay, by David Morrison
        – Born That Way? By Erin Eldridge
        – Closing the Closet: Testimonies of Deliverance from Homosexuality, Talbert Swan
        – Free Indeed, by Barbara Swallow
        – Growth Into Manhood: Resuming the Journey, by Alan Medinger
        – Healing Homosexuality: Case Studies of Reparative Therapy, by Joseph Nicolosi
        – Out of Egypt: Leaving Lesbianism Behind, by Jeanette Howard
        – A Place in the Kingdom, by Garrick and Ginger Hyde
        – Portraits of Freedom: 14 People Who Came Out of Homosexuality, by Bob Davies
        – Voices of Hope, 22 Personal Essays, Compiled by Ty Mansfield
        – You Don’t Have to be Gay, by Jeff Konrad

        • Paul Hiett

          Since you have no idea what it’s like to feel arousal at the sight of another man, you are not qualified to comment on whether or not someone is born gay.

          Also…Alan Medinger? Founder of “Exodus”???? The same “Exodus” group in which President Alan Chambers said, and I quote, “I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced. I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn’t change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.”

          Yeah, tell me all about how reparative therapy “works” again. LOL.

          • Richard

            > Since you have no idea what it’s like to feel arousal at the sight of another man, you are not qualified to comment on whether or not someone is born gay.

            You said you aren’t gay, so you have no idea. You aren’t in a position to judge my knowledge. I ask that you stop lying about this and deliberately misleading people on this issue.

            Just because one person is conflicted on reparative therapy, doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. There are thousands upon thousands of success stories.

            Stopping smoking is hard too, but no one suggests you can’t.

          • Paul Hiett

            You also said you weren’t gay. Ergo, your claims apply to yourself as well. You probably didn’t think that one through to well, did you?

            One person? Alan Chambers…PRESIDENT of the organization that your example, Medinger, founded. Sorry bub, there’s a reason Exodus no longer exists. Sexual orientation is not a choice, and the big wigs at Exodus figured it out, which is why they don’t exist anymore.

          • Richard

            > Ergo, your claims apply to yourself as well.

            I didn’t make the claim that you have to be gay to understand their feelings. You did. I said people have studied gay behavior for many years. It is understood.

            Therefore, you abide by your belief and I’ll abide by mine.

            > Sexual orientation is not a choice

            That’s not true. Of course it’s a choice. Suggesting otherwise betrays all of the research to date.

            Gays are responsible for their behavior. Period.

            Besides, since you said no one can understand gay behavior unless you are gay, that means you have no idea what you are talking about…including the cause. Suggesting otherwise is hypocritical on your part.

          • Paul Hiett

            There is no single piece of research that shows that sexual orientation is a choice. Not one. Sorry Rich, but on that you’re wrong.

            Also, there is no way for a straight person to ever understand what it’s like to feel the attraction to the same gender. It’s simply not possible, and such a claim by you to the contrary is nothing more than blatant dishonesty on your part. Reading a book will never give you that internal, emotional and physiological feeling of arousal. Unless you lied about being gay…

            I noticed you got away from Medinger and Exodus pretty quickly. Yeah, you didn’t vet that one too well did you?

          • Richard

            > There is no single piece of research that shows that sexual orientation is a choice.

            Yes, there is. And plenty of it. Who forces gays to act on their desires? Do you believe that is different than someone desiring to have your things then acting on it?

            Behaviors are always choices.

            Besides, you shouldn’t be commenting on this. You said you aren’t gay, and according to your own beliefs, you have no idea what you are talking about.

            > Also, there is no way for a straight person to ever understand what it’s like to feel the attraction to the same gender.

            You keep saying that, but saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.

            > Reading a book will never give you that internal, emotional and physiological feeling of arousal

            Your comments show you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. Gay behavior has been studied for years. It is well understood. Just because you don’t, doesn’t mean no one else does.

            > I noticed you got away from Medinger and Exodus pretty quickly.

            No need to dwell. Thousands upon thousands of success stories drown out those few who are conflicted.

          • Frank Cartwright

            >You aren’t in a position to judge my knowledge.___what’s the matter? don’t like being judged?

      • Richard

        Why are you still here violating your own moral code? Criticizing my comments isn’t ‘live and let live.’

        Doing so is hypocritical, Paul. Are you okay with being a hypocrite?

    • Frank Cartwright

      you are so wrong.why is being straight biological(not a choice) and everything else is? that is extremely illogical and dumb,just rooted in religious ignorance and prejudice.if “god” rejects his own creation,the heck with him! we did not ask to be created in the first place.

      • Richard

        > why is being straight biological(not a choice) and everything else is?

        Study child sexual development and you’ll see no one is ‘born’ with their sexual preference. It is learned.

        > hat is extremely illogical and dumb,just rooted in religious ignorance and prejudice.

        No, your lack of understanding is the problem. As I said, study child sexual development and you’ll see that I’m correct.

        > if “god” rejects his own creation

        God didn’t create him trans. His life experiences and the conclusions he made about it shaped his desires.

        > we did not ask to be created in the first place.

        Your parents chose to have children. If you have issues with that, talk with your parents.

        • Paul Hiett

          ROFL…so funny. So you completely dismiss all of the actual science, and stick to your outdated Bible and own personal assumptions, despite the fact that you’ve admitted that you’re not gay and therefore have no ability to understand or relate to what a gay person feels.

          Friggin hilarious.

          • Richard

            > So you completely dismiss all of the actual science,

            The study of child sexual development has been around for ages. The research is clear. Saying that ‘actual science’ says otherwise is ludicrous.

            > despite the fact that you’ve admitted that you’re not gay and therefore have no ability to understand or relate to what a gay person feels.

            That’s your conclusion, yet you keep saying you do know. Which is it? It can’t be both.

        • Frank Cartwright

          Study child sexual development and you’ll see no one is ‘born’ with their sexual preference. It is learned.____I DON’T KNOW ABOUT YOU BROTHER,BUT ONE DAY WHEN I WAS 12 YRS OLD AND MY HORMONES AFFECTED MY BRAIN! BOY! NO ONE HAD TO TEACH ME OR SHOW ME HOW EXCITED I WAS WITH ALMOST EVERY GIRL I SAW OR BRUSHED UP AGAINST! I CAN ASSURE YOU GAYS ARE NO DIFFERENT.MAYBE YOU NEEDED CLASSES AND TRAINING? YOU SEEM DIM.

        • Frank Cartwright

          No, your lack of understanding is the problem. As I said, study child sexual development and you’ll see that I’m correct._____YOU AND YOUR TYPE KEEP SCREAMING SIN AND GOD CONDEMNS,THAT TO ME IS A PRETTY OBVIOUS SIGN YOU GUYS HATE GUESS AT LEAST PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF THAT SILLY FAITH.

        • Frank Cartwright

          Your parents chose to have children. If you have issues with that, talk with your parents._____AND WHO ASKED MY PARENTS TO BE CREATED AND FORCED TO BE HERE GOING BACK TO THE THE VERY FIRST HUMAN? EINSTEIN.

  • hifrommark

    Jenner is a sad and lost soul. He was born a male for a reason, God made him that way. To say ” God gave me the soul of a female” is to say God made a mistake giving him the body of a male.God makes no mistakes. How SAD and ridiculous. For those who foolishly say stop judging, you fail to see that it is Jenner who is judging God’s creation of him being born a man. People who do not like the truth usually say something stupid like ” Stop judging people or others” when it is they that are judging God’s truth, they do not want to except God’s truth. This is what you hear from people trying to explain their confusion of what God meant them to be. The same with the Gay community. That the devil/satan has great influence in the world is clear. He suckers the majority of people into buying his BS. But it is coming to an end sooner than people realize.

    • Paul Hiett

      So all of those kids born with severe deformities…no mistake there? My niece who can’t walk, talk, feed herself, dress herself, clean herself, and suffers from several hundred seizures a day, is an invalid…that is what “God” intended her life to be?

      • hifrommark

        We are talking about Jenner’s situation. As for what God intends for kids like your niece that they suffer as they do only God can truly understand the reason he allows this. But one thing is clear, these children are meant to be especially LOVED. It is also our call by God to help and pray for all who suffer some disability or difficulty in life. I will pray for your niece before Our Lord in the most Blessed Sacrament Paul by saying “Pauls niece Lord.” as I do for all children each day in the rosary including those the victims of terrorism, slavery, and abuse that the Lord may rescue them. God bless you and your niece.

        • Frank Cartwright

          jenner is having a difficulty in his/her life! why don’t you pray for him/her?

          • Richard

            Should we pray for you too?

          • Frank Cartwright

            how about a rain producing tribal dance instead,same foolishness.

          • Richard

            Then we won’t bother.

          • Frank Cartwright

            HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM
            RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? I PROVED NO HUMAN FREE WILL,THAT GOD’S WILL IS
            PREDESTINED AND UNCHANGEABLE.CAT GOT YOUR TONGUE? QUIET NOW HUH?

          • Frank Cartwright

            HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? QUIET NOW HUH? WHERE ARE U?

    • Frank Cartwright

      how you can watch jenner’s interview and not fell empathy for him,only a cold christian would know! what exactly is his scam? his reason to be dishonest? have you had a lobotomy? his body was made masculine his brain patterns feminine.easy huh? nice that today science can help.time to enter the 21st century! jesus says do not judge! do you read the bible or scriptures?

      • hifrommark

        I do pray for those like Jenner, that God may help them. I am NOT judging but speaking the truth. Do you have problem with the TRUTH? It is curious that Jesus did not consider John the Baptist a person who judges, but one who did what was expected, reminding Herod of the great sin of living with his brothers wife. Added if you read the gospels you would note that Jesus told all his followers not to fear or concern ourselves with what the world says or thinks but to speak the truth, with compassion. Otherwise we would be held accountable for not speaking the truth more than even the person who is either sinning or doing something that is not good for them in Gods eyes. Finally you twist what I have said but I am not going to bother with this any further. Finally remember one thing. Gods ways are not mans and mans not Gods. Gods peace be with you.

        • Frank Cartwright

          no you are not praying (for jenner) BECAUSE YOU ARE JUDGING HIM YOU HYPOCRITE.why did you pray for that little child? because you deemed her innocent and sinless.stop playing your make believe god.compassion? i sense none of this (for jenner) from you.why do you judge and analyze non believers with your religion? what makes you right? are you more intelligent than all nonbelievers?

      • hifrommark

        I never watched his interview as all it was was a sensational topic to talk about that I had better things to do. Also given your comments it is evident I am only wasting my time with you. You say nothing but foolishness now in your responses. You must be a liberal you cannot stand anyone who has a different opinion than yours. I am sure you would tell Christ he is wrong as many did in his time and today. You are the hypocrite and I will no longer bother to respond to your silly responses I will only delete before reading.

        • Frank Cartwright

          wasting my time is not an intelligent rebuttal.why don’t you feel empathy for jenner? why would he lie? what is his hidden agenda? according to you.

  • Richard

    Paul says no one can understand gays except gays. Paul says he’s not gay. Yet he professes to know how they feel.

    Paul says he believes in ‘live and let live.’ Yet, he’s here day after day trying to change opinions.

    Hypocrisy at its finest.

    • Frank Cartwright

      the greater question is:why are you obsessed with gays? curious?

      • Richard

        I’m not obsessed. I don’t like it when people try to blame their sinful behavior on uneducated presumptions thinking that that is an excuse to continue with their sinful behavior.

        Sin ALWAYS brings consequences. Often not right away, but always. Claiming homosexuality is innate isn’t fooling anyone but yourself. God isn’t fooled either and he is the one you are most accountable to. He knows the truth. There will be no excuses when kneeling before him.

        • Frank Cartwright

          HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? QUIET NOW HUH? HELLO!

  • Richard

    Paul insists gays are born that way and that there isn’t any research to say otherwise. How about right from a gay person himself:

    Professor Graham Willett who is himself a homosexual and author of ‘Living out Loud – A short history of US’ – a history of homosexual activism in Australia has said,

    “I think the idea that sexuality is genetic is crap. There is absolutely no evidence for it at the moment, and I think it is unhealthy that people want to embrace this idea. It does reflect a desire to say, “it’s not our fault”, as a way of deflecting our critics. We have achieved what we have achieved by defiance, not by concessions. I think we should be recruiting people to homosexuality.. If you believe it’s genetic, how are you going to make the effort [to recruit]?”

    • Paul Hiett

      Got away from Medinger, I see. I don’t blame you.

      • Richard

        As I said, for the third time, one person who is conflicted doesn’t negate the thousands upon thousands of people who have overcome homosexual behavior.

        Repeating your comment over and over again doesn’t negate the successes or the volume of them.

        • Paul Hiett

          Thousands, eh? Where are these “thousands” of ex-gay people? And why is it that Exodus had to fold up, admitting it doesn’t work?

          • Richard

            Yes, many thousands. Most likely millions, as homosexuality isn’t new. A great many have returned to a heterosexual lifestyle on their own without any fanfare.

            > why is it that Exodus had to fold up, admitting it doesn’t work?

            Why are there countless others still operating because it does work? Just because one group was discouraged doesn’t mean homosexuality is the problem. Maybe their approach was faulty.

            I know some groups that try to ‘remove demons’ from depressed people…yet it doesn’t work. The problem isn’t the person, the problem is the way the groups are trying to help depressed people.

            Consider the millions of psychologists who help people make change everyday. Just because some psychologists aren’t very good doesn’t mean the person can’t change.

            BTW, why are you still trying to change my opinion? Shouldn’t you be okay with what I express…since you believe in ‘live and let live?’ Do you even realize your behavior contradicts what you said your beliefs are?

          • Frank Cartwright

            millions of ex gays!?!? i would love to see your proof.

          • Richard

            Check the Internet. It’s full of ex-gay testimonies.

          • Frank Cartwright

            that is a silly reply without facts.did you see my quotes showing god’s will cancels out our free will? now that is proof from your faith!

          • Frank Cartwright

            HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? QUIET NOW HUH? STILL EMBARRASSED?

          • Roberta

            There are not thousands of ex-gays. LOL There are no ex-gays, unless they were bi to begin with and are now swinging back the other way.

    • Frank Cartwright

      if being straight is not chosen neither is a lifestyle that no on would wants(homosexuality),with all its prejudice and persecution from religious types.

  • Bellfri

    I wonder why he didn’t chose to have male therapy instead of female. How do you differentiate the “soul” of a man from that of a woman? Does it really come down to wanting to wear dresses instead of pants as a child? I’m just wondering.
    I personally am concerned that all this push to make gender issues normal will negate any research into whether the person can be helped psychologically to accept whatever it is that is causing them discomfort.

    • Richard

      That is what has happened. There was good help for homosexuals until gay activists suppressed it. Now, homosexuals will continue to suffer since getting help has been discouraged and in some places, outlawed.

      Allowing them to marry isn’t going to change the angst they feel inside. That won’t ever leave until their issues are dealt with. Rather than helping gays, gay activists have condemned them to a life long struggle.

      • Paul Hiett

        If Exodus was considered “good help”, then there’s a reason it folded.

        • Richard

          That’s one organization. Organizations close up shop all the time…and for a variety of reasons. Why do you expect a therapy organization should be any different?

          • amostpolitedebate

            Exodus officials explicitly said that the reason they closed was because their techniques were doing serious harm to the people they were trying to help.

      • MisterPine

        I wonder why anyone concerned about their sexual orientation would go to a religious organization for support with it. What could an organization like Exodus International provide in terms of the “help” you describe? Shame, guilt, aversion and celibacy are not prescriptions for a happy or healthy life for anyone.

        Just as I wouldn’t go to a science-based organization for spiritual matters, I would not go to a religious organization for mental health matters. And organizations like the APA are not “gay activists”.

        • Richard

          > I wonder why anyone concerned about their sexual orientation would go to a religious organization for support with it.

          The best help for behavioral issues is with the combination of talk therapy and spiritual support. Non believers may not realize that the power of the Holy Spirit can help us make changes we can’t make on our own.

          > Shame, guilt, aversion and celibacy are not prescriptions for a happy or healthy life for anyone.

          Not at all. A good organization would provide encouragement, fellowship, hope, and support as the person dealt with his issues. This is similar to dealing with other sins, such as pornography, infidelity, etc. No one shames the sinner who is sincerely looking for help.

          > Just as I wouldn’t go to a science-based organization for spiritual matters, I would not go to a religious organization for mental health matters.

          That’s most likely because you don’t understand the help given. Your narrow opinion of it is the problem, not the help given.

          > And organizations like the APA are not “gay activists”.

          They were pressured into changing policy by external and internal gay activists.

          • MisterPine

            “The best help for behavioral issues is with the combination of talk therapy and spiritual support”

            No one in this day and age would refer to homosexuality as “behavioral issues”. For one thing homosexuality isn’t defined by the behavior, but the attraction. You can be a homosexual and still never lay a finger on another person. For another thing, it’s been clearly stated by most mental health organizations that homosexuality isn’t an illness and therefore requires no cure.

            “A good organization would provide encouragement, fellowship, hope, and support as the person dealt with his issues.”

            None of them do that. This is a very eye-opening video about what “reparation therapy” entails:

            www dot dailymotion dot com/video/x1i6qhp_undercover-doctor-cure-me-i-m-gay_shortfilms

            “That’s most likely because you don’t understand the help given. Your narrow opinion of it is the problem, not the help given.”

            Mine are not opinions, mine are acceptance of the facts. And the facts are that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality.

            “They were pressured into changing policy by external and internal gay activists.”

            That is a tired old lie, thoroughly debunked by now. You cannot lobby a medical body just because you don’t like their data. Well you can, but you can’t change their findings.

          • Richard

            > No one in this day and age would refer to homosexuality as “behavioral issues”.

            Lay people may not, but good therapists do.

            > For one thing homosexuality isn’t defined by the behavior, but the attraction.

            What do you think motivates attraction?

            > You can be a homosexual and still never lay a finger on another person.

            A person can be attracted to a ss person but never act on the attraction. That is true. But that’s not defined as homosexual. People have attractions and desires for a lot of things but don’t act on them. The action brings about the classification.

            >it’s been clearly stated by most mental health organizations that homosexuality isn’t an illness and therefore requires no cure.

            That’s only because of gay activism. Homosexuals have their desires because of psychological and emotional issues. Good therapists don’t refer to those as illnesses either.

            > None of them do that.

            Good ones do.

            > This is a very eye-opening video about what “reparation therapy” entails:

            There are ‘snake oil’ salesmen in every sector. Doctors are the last people to understand psychological and emotional issues. The approaches in the video are atrocious. It’s no wonder their success rate is awful. The video is also very one-sided and not objective at all. The agenda is clear.

            > And the facts are that homosexuality is a normal variation of human sexuality.

            No, it isn’t. You just have that opinion because you agree with the behavior. And, you don’t understand it so it appears normal to you.

            > You cannot lobby a medical body just because you don’t like their data. Well you can, but you can’t change their findings.

            Serious?! It happens all the time. Take the pharmaceutical companies. They’ve lied to the public for years…and doctors aren’t any wiser. Just look at all of the lawsuits and settlements against them. But they don’t care because they make more than enough money to offset the legal actions.

            It happens all the time and in many areas.

          • MisterPine

            Good therapists are good therapists when they understand and work with “behavioural issues”. And a good therapist does not convert or try to alter a homosexual. Because they know is should not be and cannot be changed.

            What motivates attraction??? Who knows! But we don’t have any control over them. And “the action” does not bring out “the classification” – how absurd can you get? If you desire closeness with the same gender, without even taking a single action, you are defined as homosexual. Look it up in the dictionary and tell me where it defines it as an action. It is a state of being.

            “Gay activism” has nothing to do with the findings of all these different organizations. Even if your story about the APA caving in to activists were true – and it has proven NOT to be – it says nothing about all the other organizations which came to the same conclusion, such as the American Psychiatric Association. My opinion that it is not an illness is not because I agree with the “behaviour” – remember that the dictionary will prove to you that homosexuality is a state of being and not an action – my opinion that it is not an illness is due to modern science telling us so. Only religions continue to fight science on this matter.

            The video gives first hand information on reparative therapy from a doctor who undergoes it himself. It is nothing short of amazing that you call it snake oil and continue to scoff at it. As for your statement “doctors are the last people to understand psychological and emotional issues,” well, I’m just going to state here and now that that is the most bizarre thing I think you have EVER said here, which is saying a lot.

          • Richard

            > And a good therapist does not convert or try to alter a homosexual. Because they know is should not be and cannot be changed.

            That’s your personal opinion, but not the truth. There are many, many ex-gays thanks to therapy. You might want to read some of their testimonies and personal stories.

            > Who knows! But we don’t have any control over them.

            Many people know. Therapists have been helping people understand this for years. It’s not a mystery to them. It is to you because you have no training in this area.

            > If you desire closeness with the same gender, without even taking a single action, you are defined as homosexual.

            Nonsense. If a person is attracted to your car and desires to steal it but doesn’t, is he still a thief? No. Actions define classification. There’a big difference between being tempted and deciding to follow through.

            > remember that the dictionary will prove to you that homosexuality is a state of being and not an action

            Up until 2011, medical journals, dictionaries, doctors, many mental health professionals, and the general public said mental illness was caused by a chemical imbalance. That was the prevailing opinion…until it was fully debunked by independent research. Many times the prevailing opinion, while popular – due to activist pressure and good marketing – is wrong. It is the case with homosexuality…which you’ll see in the very near future.

            > The video gives first hand information on reparative therapy from a doctor who undergoes it himself. It is nothing short of amazing that you call it snake oil and continue to scoff at it. As for your statement “doctors are the last people to understand psychological and emotional issues,” well, I’m just going to state here and now that that is the most bizarre thing I think you have EVER said here, which is saying a lot.

            Doctors aren’t trained in psychological and emotional issues. Your statement clearly shows you have no actual experience or training in this area.

            Your comments are purely based on personal opinion and no actual facts or experience. It’s no wonder your comments, while passionate, grossly inaccurate.

            If you want the truth, talk with even a few ex-gays. You’ll get your complete evidence, which flies in the face of gay proponent talking points.

          • MisterPine

            “That’s your personal opinion, but not the truth.”

            No, Richard. It is a fact. You know I can easily cut and paste a link to the APA which confirms it, or practically any other mental health organization.

            You might want to read some of the stories of “ex-gay” people who were caught at gay pickup joints, many of them even so-called “leaders” of the ex-gay movement. I guess it’s completely escaped you that the leader of Exodus International, the biggest organization of that type of them all, closed their doors recently, with the head of it apologizing to the pain he had caused gay and lesbian people? And no, that’s not my opinion either, I can provide backup to everything I state. And you know I can.

            No, Richard, we do not know what motivates attraction. We DO know that it is not, as you said, “psychological and emotional issues” as you gave as a reason for why people are homosexual. A link, please, to the so-called “therapists” who say they help people understand how their attractions are manipulated and not just formed as with every other person.

            “Nonsense. If a person is attracted to your car and desires to steal it but doesn’t, is he still a thief?”

            No, because as I said, and because as you’ll see in the dictionary, homosexuality isn’t an action but a state of being. You can be sitting quietly in your car driving and finding someone who passes by attractive.

            To make this easier for you, here’s the dictionary definition:

            homosexual
            noun
            1. a person who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex

            Notice, no mention of actually doing anything. Only the attraction is mentioned, which is all that is required to be a homosexual.

            “Doctors aren’t trained in psychological and emotional issues. Your statement clearly shows you have no actual experience or training in this area.”

            Richard, do you know what a psychologist is?

            “Your comments are purely based on personal opinion and no actual facts or experience.”

            If you look back, you’ll see that everything that I’ve stated is in fact factual and opinion does not enter into it at any point.

            There is no such thing as an ex-gay person. You can no sooner change the colour of your eyes as your sexual orientation. Teaching gay people to be abstinent is not a measure of success. If they claim to be ex-gay now, they likely were never gay to begin with, or more likely, are still gay and just suppressing any feelings of attraction they have.

            Rather than suggesting I speak to a few ex-gays, I think you need to speak to a few gay people, who will tell you they didn’t “choose” anything, that they are not ill, and that they were not abused by anyone when growing up.

          • Frank Cartwright

            how about the straight people that “turn” gay? the priesthood is loaded with gay men(pedophiles too!,why didn’t religion “cure” them?

          • Richard

            > how about the straight people that “turn” gay?

            Mr. Pine isn’t going to like your comment, because it flies in the face of his theory. This is one more fact that shows sexuality isn’t static, but fluid and can change based on the will, not DNA.

            > the priesthood is loaded with gay men(pedophiles too!,why didn’t religion “cure” them?

            Many people like sin. If they really wanted to change, they could. The thousands upon thousands of ex-gays is an example of this.

            I’m not going to suggest making change is easy. But this isn’t unlike making any kind of behavioral change, such as stop smoking, stop doing recreational drugs, stop overeating, stopping anxious, stop being depressed, stop abusing your partner, and so one.

            Just because it isn’t easy, doesn’t mean you can’t do it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? I PROVED NO HUMAN FREE WILL,THAT GOD’S WILL IS PREDESTINED AND UNCHANGEABLE.CAT GOT YOUR TONGUE? QUIET NOW HUH?

          • Richard

            answered above.

          • Frank Cartwright

            i show you quotes from scripture in the bible that PROVE YOUR VIEW OR UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR FAITH IS WRONG and that is the best you can do? you will not wate yor time? sorry,i thought religion was a very important matter for you.

          • MisterPine

            Straight people don’t turn gay, the people were always gay but living a lie. That’s why you hear so many stories of people who get married and even have kids when they one day snap because they can’t do it anymore.

          • Richard

            > Straight people don’t turn gay, the people were always gay but living a lie.

            That’s nonsense. All you are doing is trying to deny the obvious, which proves your opinion wrong.

            > one day snap

            Seriously?! No one ‘snaps.’ That’s just a media trick to sell news. Mental health professionals know no one snaps!

          • MisterPine

            For the last time Richard, I’m not posting opinions, I’m posting facts.

            “Seriously?! No one ‘snaps.’

            gayswithkids dot com. Go tell these gay fathers that they are all just the product of a media trick. Have fun.

          • Richard

            What do you think a pro gay website is going to say? The same old propaganda. Come on. Look at the facts, not talking points.

          • MisterPine

            Richard, it has NOTHING to do with being pro- or anti-gay. The point is there is a WEBSITE DEDICATED to gay dads…all of whom experienced the “snap” I mentioned. Are you going to tell me the people featured on that page do not exist? You are unbelievable!

          • Frank Cartwright

            so when gays “turn” straight (impossible)you are absolutely positive(though you do not know them!) they are not just pretending? trying to please family,friends and stop the persecution and once again be accepted?

          • MisterPine

            I agree, gays turning straight is impossible. So that leaves two options. That they really ARE straight, and for some strange reason leave their married lives and go get involved with gay people they aren’t attracted to (impossible) or they were gay all along trying to fit in to acceptable societal norms until they reached the breaking point.

            Why do I feel like I’m delivering earth-shaking, never-heard-before news when this information’s been around for ages?

          • Richard

            > gays turning straight is impossible.

            Your opinion has been refuted by real evidence and facts…thousands and thousands of times over.

          • Frank Cartwright

            do you also feel turning from straight to gay is impossible also? a person is created with a body that is male or female (except for hermaphrodites that have both sex organs) did they chose to be this way also,what garbage! people also have feminine or masculine brains.why do very young girls(straight) like to play with dolls and have tea parties and like pink? why do straight very young boys like to roughhouse ,toy soldier men and toy guns? did they chose or be taught to like them? of course not,we are all born the way we are meant to be.some love animals(myself) some torture them (usually at puberty,release of hormones and brain changes). they did not choose to be cruel or enjoy it no more than i enjoy chocolate and not vanilla ice cream.i just do!

          • MisterPine

            Yes, turning from straight to gay is impossible also. Can you change the colour of your eyes or change from right-handed to left-handed?

            Young straight girls like to play with dolls and have tea parties and like pink, yes. So do some young gay boys. So do some young straight boys. What’s your point? Bringing stereotypes into it is going to accomplish what?

          • Frank Cartwright

            these are one of my comments pending,in case you do not seeit.___
            1- my simple point is we are born to be gay or not.tocondemn or ask them to change or not have sex is disgusting.
            “Yes, turning from straight to gay is impossible also. Can you change the colour of your eyes or change from right-handed to left-handed?
            Young straight girls like to play with dolls and have tea parties and like pink, yes. So do some young gay boys. So do some young straight boys. What’s your point? Bringing stereotypes into it is going to accomplish what?”

            Settings

            MisterPine
            Yes, turning from straight to gay is impossible also. Can you change the colour of your eyes or change from right-handed to left-handed? Young straight girls like to play with dolls and have tea parties and like pink, yes. So do some young gay boys. So do some young straight boys. What’s your point? Bringing stereotypes into it is going to accomplish what? 12:37 p.m., Wednesday April 29 | Other comments by MisterPine

            Reply to MisterPine

            MisterPine’s comment is in reply to Frank Cartwright:

            do you also feel turning from straight to gay is impossible also? a person is created with a body that is male or female (except … Read more

          • Richard

            > You know I can easily cut and paste a link to the APA which confirms it, or practically any other mental health organization.

            As I said, almost all medical and mental health care website said the chemical imbalance was true. It wasn’t. And as I said, gay activist pressure forced change in all the organizations to make them politically correct, not scientifically correct.

            > Exodus international

            You and Paul keep bringing up one organization that had regrets. This does nothing to negate the thousands upon thousands of ex-gays, most likely millions, that have returned to a normal heterosexual lifestyle whether on their own or through therapy. These actual cases disproves your entire argument.

            > we do not know what motivates attraction.

            Yes, we do! You don’t. But that doesn’t mean no one else does. Your lack of education on this topic is clear. Therapists have been helping people for centuries. Attraction is not a mystery.

            In your opinion, what is the difference between a homosexual being attracted to an SS partner, and a ped o file being attracted to children?

            What is the difference between a homosexual being attracted to an SS partner, and a heterosexual being attracted to someone else’s wife?

            What is the difference between a homosexual being attracted to an SS partner, and a homosexual being attracted to three people?

            What is the difference between a homosexual being attracted to an SS partner, and a bisexual being attracted to both sexes?

            I know the answer to these questions. Do you?

            > homosexuality isn’t an action but a state of being.

            That’s a load of nonsense! Homosexuality is no more a state of being than ped o filia? Adultery? Incest? Speeding? Smoking?

            > a person who is sexually attracted to members of the same sex

            Based on your own definition, it says nothing about state of being. It says being attracted to. Attraction is a preference based on attitude, not hardwired into your DNA. Identical twins studies have disproven the ‘born this way’ nonsense. Child sexual development disproves the notion that sexuality is innate and static.

            > do you know what a psychologist is?

            Of course. They aren’t doctors. Doctors receive little to no training on psychological and emotional issues.

            > There is no such thing as an ex-gay person.

            In consideration of the thousands upon thousands of ex-gays, your comment is nonsense and clearly shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Denying ex-gays doesn’t negate them.

            > Rather than suggesting I speak to a few ex-gays, I think you need to speak to a few gay people, who will tell you they didn’t “choose” anything,

            I’ve spoken to gays many times. Why do you think I know so much about the behavior? Homosexuality isn’t a mystery as proponents would like us to believe. It’s been around since the beginning of time. It’s well understood, but the real science has been suppressed. This is about to change.

            > and that they were not abused by anyone when growing up.

            Once again your comment demonstrates you have no knowledge of what you are talking about. Until you gain some actual education on the subject, responding to you is like responding to a three-year-old about quantum theory. You deny the truth because you don’t know anything outside of your uneducated opinion.

            Why don’t you start to educate yourself by studying psychology, child development, sexual development, and behavioral sciences for starters.

            Attraction is caused by what psychologists call ‘attitude.’ You can read more about that here:

            psychology dot about dot com/od/socialpsychology/a/attitudes.htm

            It’s time to become enlightened, Mr. Pine. Remaining in the dark isn’t the way to enlightenment.

          • MisterPine

            “As I said, almost all medical and mental health care websites said the
            chemical imbalance was true. It wasn’t. And as I said, gay activist
            pressure forced change in all the organizations to make them politically
            correct, not scientifically correct.”

            I already pointed out that was old, tired and long debunked, but I do recognize that it’s part of your tack to cling to misinformation and quote it when it suits you.

            “These actual cases disproves your entire argument.”

            These people are living lies. They have had societal, personal and religious pressures put on them. They did not change their orientation. It is impossible to do so. Exodus International was by far the biggest one and their admission of fraud speaks volumes.

            “Attraction is not a mystery.”

            Never said it was, but you are claiming that attraction can be altered, and that I’m some kind of idiot for having never heard of this. I would like proof please, since I know you’re talking nonsense.

            “In your opinion, what is the difference…”

            Here’s where you really show your ignorance. What we know about sexual attraction is that no one is exclusively gay or straight. We all fall along a continuum, so a person might be 70% straight and 30% gay. If they fall along the middle of the continuum which is rarer, then we see bisexuality.

            However, to answer your questions, homosexuality is not pedophilia (you spelled it “ped o file”, you might want to correct that). Homosexuality involves consenting adults and pedophilia involves the abuse of a child. A person attracted to someone else’s wife? if that person engages in a relationship with that person, then it’s adultery and again is being done in a way that would cause another person pain. So again, not consensual. Homosexuals probably frequently ARE attracted to three people, but why would this differ from straight people in the same boat? Either they’d focus on one person, or they’d be caught in a web of confusion. Bisexuality was covered above. And so…

            “I know the answer to these questions. Do you?”

            You can see that I do. But I doubt very much you can say the same thing.

            “That’s a load of nonsense! Homosexuality is no more a state of being than ped o filia? Adultery? Incest? Speeding? Smoking?”

            Richard, you’re just getting tiresome now. Do you or do you not possess a dictionary? Did you READ the dictionary definition I posted? Are you seriously going to argue with it? And for the last time, it’s “pedophilia”, not “ped o filia”.

            ” Attraction is a preference based on attitude, not hardwired into your DNA.”

            Whether or not that’s true, where does it say anything about an action? The point is homosexuality is a state of being.

            ” They aren’t doctors.”

            I’d like to see you tell a clinical psychologist that he’s not a doctor. Anyone who has a Ph. D. is a doctor. You can be a doctor of mathematics or philosophy.

            “Denying ex-gays doesn’t negate them.”

            If you continue to deny what we learn from mental health experts, you do so at your own peril.

            ” the real science has been suppressed. This is about to change.”

            And where do you propose this “real science” is going to come from? Since you have no trust in the foremost organizations who study it.

            “You deny the truth because you don’t know anything outside of your uneducated opinion.”

            Rather than throw rocks Richard provide me with proof that gay people were abused when growing up. It’s rather sad that you stick to tired old disproven nonsense rather than point to real science.

            And rather than tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about when it’s what I do as a profession, why don’t you give me some real science and some real mental health weblinks?

          • Richard

            > I already pointed out that was old, tired and long debunked

            I don’t know what part of my comment you are referring to.

            > These people are living lies.

            It appears you aren’t willing to believe anything outside of your opinion…even when ex-gays explicitly tell their personal stories.

            > It is impossible to do so.

            You keep saying that, but the actual evidence demonstrates otherwise.

            > but you are claiming that attraction can be altered

            It can.

            Dr. Martin Duberman, founder of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, said “no good scientific work establishes that people are born gay or straight.”

            Anthropologist Dr. Esther Newton (University of Michigan) called one study linking sexual orientation to biological traits ludicrous: “Any anthropologist who has looked cross-culturally (knows) it’s impossible that that’s true, because sexuality is structured in such different ways in different cultures.”

            > What we know about sexual attraction is that no one is exclusively gay or straight.

            What nonsense. Who ever told you that lie?! It seems you’ll believe anything but the truth.

            > Homosexuality involves consenting adults and pedophilia involves the abuse of a child.

            You think the only difference is that no one gets hurt? That doesn’t explain why they have the attraction, which was the questions I asked about.

            > You can see that I do.

            You missed the entire point of my questions. I was asking about attraction, not about what excuse you wanted to use to condone homosexual behavior.

            Try again, but this time explain why the ‘attractions’ are different.

            BTW, even your excuse that it’s consensual and doesn’t hurt anyone is lame. If that is your criteria, then you should be okay with incest: relations between consenting parents and children of age.

            > Do you or do you not possess a dictionary?

            Homosexual: sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex. If you notice, it doesn’t say ‘a part of a person’s being.’

            > The point is homosexuality is a state of being.

            You keep saying that, but that doesn’t make it true. It just means you don’t understand homosexuality and were attractions come from.

            > I’d like to see you tell a clinical psychologist that he’s not a doctor

            Doctor, as in the medical sense. Based on your comments, do you think that a doctor of mathematics would be able to tell you what motivates gay behavior?

            > And where do you propose this “real science” is going to come from? Since you have no trust in the foremost organizations who study it

            From independents who aren’t afraid to speak the truth.

            > Rather than throw rocks Richard provide me with proof that gay people were abused when growing up

            “In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, the authors report data showing that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys sixteen to nineteen years of age or younger.” – Karla Jay and Allen Young, The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak Out about Sexual Experiences and Lifestyles (New York: Summit Books, 1979), p. 275

            “A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, “all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories,” which included males as young as age fifteen.” – Zebulon A. Silverthorne and Vernon L. Quinsey, “Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women,” p.73.

            David Thorstad, homosexual activist and historian, a former president of New York’s Gay Activists Alliance (GAA), argues that there is a natural and undeniable connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. He expresses bitterness that the gay rights movement has, in his view, abandoned pedophilia. Thorstad writes: “Boy-lovers were involved in the gay movement from the beginning, and their presence was tolerated. Gay youth groups encouraged adults to attend their dances. . . . There was a mood of tolerance, even joy at discovering the myriad of lifestyles within the gay and lesbian subculture.” – David Thorstad, “May/Boy Love and the American Gay Movement” Journal of Homosexuality 20 (1990): 253.

            There is indeed a clear disparity between homosexual men and heterosexual men and child sexual abuse. Using a non-clinical population of 465, Tomeo et al. found that 46 percent of the gay men reported being sexually abused as children compared to 7 percent of the matched heterosexual men.What’s intriguing is that 68 percent of the homosexual men did not identify as homosexual until after the abuse. Earlier research by Johnson and Shrier concluded that boys who had been sexually abused are 7 times more likely to identify as homosexual or bisexual than their heterosexual counterparts. Even more intriguing is that Friedman noted that the boys who later identified as heterosexual had a mean average of 15.7 as the time of their first sexual experience. For the boy who later identified as homosexual, the mean average was 12.7.” – Dr. Byrd is referencing Diane Shrier and Robert L. Johnson, “Sexual Victimization of Boys: An Ongoing Study of an Adolescent Medicine Clinic Population,” Journal of the National Medical Association 80, (1988); he also references Richard C. Friedman and Jennifer I Downey, “Homosexuality,” The New England Journal of Medicine, vol. #331 (1994): 923-930,

          • MisterPine

            “I don’t know what part of my comment you are referring to.”

            The nonsense about the APA changing their classification of homosexuality due to pressure from gay lobbyists. The lobbying may have happened, in fact it probably did, but it was not the reason for the APA’s decision.

            “It appears you aren’t willing to believe anything outside of your opinion…even when ex-gays explicitly tell their personal stories.”

            Their stories might be true. Telling people you don’t get into bed with people of the same gender anymore is fine. But that’s not changing attractions. That’s just abstinence. If people believe they’ve changed attractions, it flies in the face of the knowledge we have.

            “You keep saying that, but the actual evidence demonstrates otherwise.”

            Why don’t you present some? Not in the form of testimonies, but in actual scientific facts and findings?

            “Dr. Martin Duberman, founder of the Center for Lesbian and Gay Studies, said “no good scientific work establishes that people are born gay or straight.”

            And that explains how attractions can be altered, which is what we were talking about? How?

            “What nonsense. Who ever told you that lie?! It seems you’ll believe anything but the truth.”

            Richard, it’s mind-boggling that for someone who’s trying to come across as an expert in this field that you’ve never even HEARD of the Kinsey Scale.

            en dot wikipedia dot org/wiki/Kinsey_scale#Findings

            “That doesn’t explain why they have the attraction, which was the questions I asked about.”

            And so what point are you trying to make? That if your attraction is to people who cannot legally reciprocate your feelings, that it’s bad? Well duh.

            “Try again, but this time explain why the ‘attractions’ are different.”

            Who cares? An attraction can be acted on or not acted on. You shouldn’t act on ones that are illegal or cause stress or pain to another person. Homosexuality doesn’t fit that description. What point do you think you’re making?

            “If that is your criteria, then you should be okay with incest: relations between consenting parents and children of age.”

            I couldn’t care less. Neither should you.

            “Homosexual: sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex. If you notice, it doesn’t say ‘a part of a person’s being.’”

            Homosexual is what you are. It is not what you do – THAT would be called “homosexual activity” or other things. The dictionary makes that VERY clear, despite your attempts to alter its meaning. Where is an action mentioned anywhere in the definition?

            “Doctor, as in the medical sense. Based on your comments, do you think that a doctor of mathematics would be able to tell you what motivates gay behavior?”

            You wouldn’t ASK a doctor of mathematics, you’d ask a DOCTOR OF PSYCHOLOGY. Which the subject of the video WAS.

            “From independents who aren’t afraid to speak the truth.”

            Still not providing any links, I see. And the ones you DID provide are either old and outdated or simply show a few cases of homosexuals who were abused when growing up, but do nothing to say that ALL of them were.

          • Richard

            > The lobbying may have happened, in fact it probably did, but it was not the reason for the APA’s decision.

            According to the American Psychiatric Association, until 1974 homosexuality was a mental illness. Then in 1970 gay activists protested against the APA convention in San Francisco. These scenes were repeated in 1971, and as people came out of the “closet” and felt empowered politically and socially, the APA directorate became increasingly uncomfortable with their stance. In 1973 the APA’s nomenclature task force recommended that homosexuality be declared normal. The trustees were not prepared to go that far, but they did vote to remove homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses by a vote of 13 to 0, with 2 abstentions. This decision was confirmed by a vote of the APA membership, and homosexuality was no longer listed in the seventh edition of DSM-II, which was issued in 1974.

            In 1977, ten thousand members of the APA were polled at random, asking them their opinion on the removal of homosexuality from the DSM-III. In an article entitled “Sick Again?” Time magazine summarized the results of the poll: “Of those answering, 69% said they believed ‘homosexuality is usually a pathological adaptation, as opposed to a normal variation,’ 18% disagreed, and 13% were uncertain.

            What’s noteworthy about this is that the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough. There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change. Rather, it was the simple reality that gay people started to kick up a fuss. They gained a voice and began to make themselves heard. And the APA reacted with truly astonishing speed. And with good reason. They realized intuitively that a protracted battle would have drawn increasing attention to the spurious nature of their entire taxonomy. So they quickly “cut loose” the gay community and forestalled any radical scrutiny of the DSM system generally.

            > If people believe they’ve changed attractions, it flies in the face of the knowledge we have.

            No, the reality of ex-gays flies in the face of your opinion. Facts are facts. The truth is testable and repeatable.

            > but in actual scientific facts and findings?

            What do you think real world examples are? Actual facts and evidence. The practical evidence speaks for itself. You just don’t like what it is saying. That’s a you issue, not a facts and evidence issue.

            > And that explains how attractions can be altered, which is what we were talking about? How?

            Scientific research has refuted many common myths and offers a new view of women’s sexual orientations. A new view emphasizes several well- documented findings, which includes the following:

            – Women’s sexual orientation is potentially fluid, is shaped by life experiences, and can change over the life span.

            – intimate relationships are often more central to women’s sexual orientation than sexual behavior.

            – A lesbian sexual orientation does not result from biological abnormalities. Biological influences on sexual orientation are limited and indirect.

            – Women’s sexual orientation is shaped by such social and cultural factors as women’s education, social status and power, economic opportunities, and attitudes about women’s roles.

            – There is no single developmental pathway leading to a heterosexual, bisexual, or lesbian outcome.”

            “Scholars from many disciplines have noted that women’s sexuality tends to be fluid, malleable, shaped by life experiences, and capable of change over time. female sexual development is a potentially continuous, lifelong process in which multiple changes in sexual orientation are possible.” – by Linda D. Garnets and Letitia Anne Peplau, A New Look at Women’s Sexuality & Sexual Orientation

            > attraction – Who cares?

            The entire issue is what motivates attraction. You say its innate and static, and I know it isn’t…as the above information has shown.

            > incest – I couldn’t care less

            What is the difference between incest and homosexuality? You didn’t answer that.

            > Homosexual is what you are.

            No it isn’t. It’s a behavior you engage in. It’s not part of your being, but how you decide to behave.

            > DOCTOR OF PSYCHOLOGY

            A psychologist is vastly different than a medical doctor, which is what I was saying.

            > Still not providing any links,

            I provided you three cites, which you dismiss. The cites betray your claims.

            Homosexuality is a fluid, learned behavior. Suggesting otherwise goes against the science.

          • MisterPine

            “According to the American Psychiatric Association, until 1974 homosexuality was a mental illness. Then in…”

            Yes, Richard, anyone can see that you’re cutting and pasting from a bigoted and long-refuted old document called “Homosexuality: The Mental Illness that Went Away.”

            “No, the reality of ex-gays flies in the face of your opinion. Facts are facts. The truth is testable and repeatable.”

            You can continue to call it my “opinion” all you like, I’m quoting factual information. The reality is that there ARE no ex-gays.

            “What do you think real world examples are? Actual facts and evidence.”

            What we have, Richard, is church people and quacks teaching people they have an illness they don’t have. “Pray the gay away” techniques are a farce, they don’t work. The church teaches abstinence, the people walk away claiming to be “cured”, and they never have relations with anyone. Not much of a victory if you ask me. And intellectually dishonest because the desires are still there. THEY are what cannot be changed, and there’s not a shred of evidence you can produce to the contrary.

            “Scientific research has refuted many common myths and offers a new view of women’s…” (end cut and paste job)

            You still have not shown anything that proves your claim that our attractions can be altered.

            “The entire issue is what motivates attraction. You say its innate and static, and I know it isn’t…as the above information has shown.”

            Which it hasn’t. And it’s very strange that you focused entirely on women and completely ignored men.

            And what your body responds to, sensually, is not something you control. This is easily proved by simply looking at what you consider to be a “turn on”. Are you at all aroused by the site of the same gender?I assume you feel no attraction to other men, which clearly proves that orientation is not a choice people make.

            “What is the difference between incest and homosexuality? You didn’t answer that.”
            Incest is sexual activity between directly related family members and homosexuality is attraction to the same sex. Can’t wait to see what comparison you’re going to try to make between the two.

            “No it isn’t. It’s a behavior you engage in. It’s not part of your being, but how you decide to behave.”

            And it doesn’t bother you at all that you are going directly against the dictionary definition, which I’ve shown you to your face says nothing whatsoever about “behavior you engage in”? At what point do you EVER admit you’re wrong? YOU ARE FLATLY DENYING THE DICTIONARY.

            “A psychologist is vastly different than a medical doctor, which is what I was saying.”

            And there was no need for you to mention a medical doctor in the first place.

            “I provided you three cites, which you dismiss. The cites betray your claims.”

            You provided garbage. And you ignored the Kinsey Scale which it still amazes me you didn’t know about.

            “Homosexuality is a fluid, learned behavior. Suggesting otherwise goes against the science.”

            Still waiting on that “science”.

          • Richard

            > APA

            That is the historical account of it. The APA changed their stance on homosexuality because of gay activism and not because of any other reason…as I said all along. You denied it.

            > The reality is that there ARE no ex-gays.

            A simple check online disproves your assertion thousands of times over. The facts disprove your opinion.

            > the desires are still there. THEY are what cannot be changed, and there’s not a shred of evidence you can produce to the contrary.

            “It has been seventeen years since I resolved my homosexual problems. I use that word purposely. I am not suppressing the feelings. I have filled the underlying needs that created the homosexual attractions, and the problems are resolved. I am happy to say I no longer struggle with homosexuality. It no longer controls my life.” – Jason Park, author

            “I am one of thousands of men and women who have come out of the gay lifestyle,” he said after recounting the turbulent history of his life. “But the media and other people, gay activists, don’t want you to hear that. You know why? Because the entire gay agenda is build on a faulty sinking foundation. Two pillars: Number one—that you are born gay. And number two—that you can’t change. I am living proof that both of those are faulty and wrong. – Stephen Bennett, a recovered homosexual now happily married to his wife for twelve years.

            Just two of thousands.

            > You still have not shown anything that proves your claim that our attractions can be altered.

            Yes, I did. You just dismissed it. Don’t like facts?

            > And it’s very strange that you focused entirely on women and completely ignored men.

            You completely ignored the results. But I posted a couple of testimonies from men. Obviously men’s sexuality changes, too. The facts are facts. You can deny them but you can’t say the don’t exist.

            > And what your body responds to, sensually, is not something you control.

            Of course you can. Therapists have been helping people do this for years. Maybe you can’t because you haven’t learned how. But that is a ‘you’ problem, not that people can’t control it. You really should get some therapy so you can learn these skills.

            > Incest is sexual activity between directly related family members and homosexuality is attraction to the same sex.

            Incest can also be love between family members. What makes it any different than homosexuality? If you believe gays can’t change their attraction, then maybe people who engage in incest can’t either. Is that what you are suggesting?

            > And it doesn’t bother you at all that you are going directly against the dictionary definition,

            Homosexual: sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex. The definition doesn’t say ‘a part of your being.’ Attraction is caused by preference, not innate and unchangeable.

            > You provided garbage

            They were three legitimate cites from research. You say they are garbage because you don’t like them. Dismissing the truth doesn’t negate it.

            > Still waiting on that “science”.

            I’ve already shown it to you. As I said, dismissing it doesn’t negate it.

            Facts are facts. You don’t like them. Holding fast to your opinion doesn’t make your opinion true.

            An article by Dr. Warren Throckmorton, “Initial Empirical and Clinical Findings Concerning the Change Process for Ex-Gays,” summarizes 11 studies and concludes: “My literature review contradicts the policies of major mental health organizations because it suggests that sexual orientation, once thought to be an unchanging sexual trait, is actually quite flexible for many people, changing as a result of therapy for some, ministry for others and spontaneously for still others.”

            “The idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is entirely foolish,” says John DeCecco, professor of psychology at San Francisco State University and the editor of the 25-volume Journal of Homosexuality. Homosexuality, he says, is a behavior, not a condition, and something that some people can and do change, just like they sometimes change other tastes and personality traits.

            Your opinions have all been proven wrong by actual research. But since you don’t accept the research, discussing anything further with you is pointless. Some people just don’t like facts. You appear to be one of them.

          • MisterPine

            “What methodology are these conservative Christian groups dishing out to vulnerable people who are overcome by religious guilt? I went undercover into the sordid world of ex-gay therapy to get a firsthand taste of their process of conversion. Their manifesto is that homosexuality can be cured by embracing an attractive man with long hair and washboard-abs: Jesus. Posing as a confused gay man seeking guidance, I journeyed into the world of charlatans and religious conmen dishing out snake-oil therapy. The underlying message: if you’re gay, God hates you and if you don’t get straight, you’re going to hell.”

            –Harmon Leon, “I Went Undercover to Become ‘Ex-Gay’: Inside the Sordid World of Conversion Therapy”

            www dot alternet dot org/investigations/i-went-undercover-become-ex-gay-inside-sordid-world-conversion-therapy

            “For me, after 30+ years of monitoring the “ex-gay” movement, none of the testimonies have swayed my beliefs that sexual orientation is innate and unchangeable. I’ve been called skeptical, but I prefer to think of it as…weathered. (Okay, cynical!) My advice: when you listen, try to hear what’s not being said. Separate what’s actually true and what is wishful exaggeration.”

            –former “ex-gay” leader Bill Prickett

            timrymel dot com/how-to-listen-to-an-ex-gay-testimony-guest-blog-by-bill-prickett/

            “The term “ex-gay” can be a bit misleading, however. Often, people who say they “came out of homosexuality” mean only that they stopped engaging in homosexual (intercourse). They consider themselves “ex-gay” because of a change in their behavior, but they continue to be attracted to the same (gender). (This is sort of like a prostitute who becomes fed up with her unfulfilling lifestyle and chooses to give up (intercourse). She is still heterosexual, but she is no longer engaging in heterosexual intercourse. She didn’t “come out of heterosexuality.”)”

            www dot gaychristian dot net/faq.php

            “My caution to any Christians reading this is that they not rush to judgment and proclaim that homosexuals are sinners in need of a cure in Jesus. I have never met a single homosexual who felt that they had a choice in the matter,
            and there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the claim, either. When dealing with any written language, especially that of an ancient text like the Bible, we should not presume that our modern sensibilities, like scientific knowledge, carried all the way back indefinitely into the past. New discoveries will empower us to use the same words in new ways and to be more careful about what we mean.”

            –Chris Attaway, “The Discerning Christian Blog”

            thediscerningchristian dot wordpress dot com/2013/02/09/christians-and-homosexuality-dangers-of-ex-gay-testimonies/comment-page-1/”

          • Frank Cartwright

            >What do you think motivates attraction? HORMONES. AND WHAT AREAS OF THE BRAIN THAT RESPOND TO THEM.

      • Frank Cartwright

        homosexuals will continue to suffer as long as people like you judge and condemn them as evil pedophile sinners!

        • Richard

          They suffer because of their own issues. ‘Normalizing’ unhealthy behavior doesn’t change anything but makes it more prevalent.

          • Frank Cartwright

            no,sorry, all their “issues” are from people like you! judging,name calling,rejection, guilt,self hate these are not from them, they are in relation to your prejudice and cruelty.

          • Richard

            No. The same issues that motivate homosexual behavior stem from the psychological and emotional issues.

          • Frank Cartwright

            FROM THE BRAIN

          • Frank Cartwright

            ARE YOU STILL ANGRY THAT I EXPOSED YOUR FAITH AS ALL LIES,REMEMBER THE FREE WILL DEBATE I WON?

          • Richard

            > REMEMBER THE FREE WILL DEBATE I WON?

            Is that your free will talking or did something force you to think and write that?

          • Frank Cartwright

            please review your bible with greater concentration.you obviously “picked and chosen” passages you like,and conveniently dismissed the others,what a crazy silly faith.

      • Roberta

        No, it’s unaccepting people like you who have condemned gays to a life long struggle. PS: There was no “help” for gays. They don’t need help in the first place.

    • Frank Cartwright

      it is not the soul,but the patterns of the brain.

      • Richard

        Brain patterns are a reflection of behavior. They aren’t causal.

        • Frank Cartwright

          there is no behavior without the brain’s wave influence first.you drink liquor,your behavior is modified and you become verbally abusive.

          • Richard

            > there is no behavior without the brain’s wave influence first

            Nonsense. Brain patterns are determined by behavior. Check out MRI and fMRI for more information.

            If you decide to go to sleep, you brain will change patterns. If you decide something is really exciting, your brain pattern will change. If you are fearful…depressed. frustrated… All will change brain patterns. The patterns follow behavior, not the other way around.

            > you drink liquor,your behavior is modified and you become verbally abusive.

            Ingesting a substance that changes the body’s chemical makeup is going to have an effect. But that’s not the brain by itself telling you what to do, but being impaired as a result of an ingested substance. Big difference.

          • Frank Cartwright

            your brain tell gays to be gay like yours “tells” you to be straight.simple why can’t you admit this? then again you cannot even be honest of the contradictions of your beliefs.

          • Richard

            > your brain tell gays to be gay like yours “tells” you to be straight.simple

            No, you decide what preference you want. Your brain doesn’t tell you anything you haven’t already programmed.

          • Frank Cartwright

            CHECKMATE! thanks Richard.

          • Richard

            Checkmate on what? That you are wrong. On that, we agree.

          • Frank Cartwright

            deny deny deny!

          • Richard

            I haven’t denied anything.

            Learning is an example of how the brain works. We work at learning something, then we use that learned knowledge at will. All behavior is formed that way. The brain doesn’t tell us what to do, we tell the brain what we want to do and will our behaviors.

          • Frank Cartwright

            does the child who suffers from schizophrenia have to LEARN OF THIS DISORDER to hear voices or act badly? of course not! does an alcoholic that craves (from the brain) booze, need to learn what it is before they want it? no. check and re-mate!

          • Richard

            >does the child who suffers from schizophrenia have to LEARN OF THIS DISORDER to hear voices or act badly?

            You are talking about an illness…a rare exception. Rare exceptions aren’t the rule.

            Beside, the schizophrenic can learn to adjust his behavior so life is better (agreeing to treatment, take medication, ignore the voices, etc.).

            The alcoholic brought the illness on by choice. No one forces a person to drink alcohol to excess.

        • Frank Cartwright

          HEY RICHARD HOW COME YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO MY QUOTES THAT PROVE I AM
          RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG? I PROVED NO HUMAN FREE WILL,THAT GOD’S WILL IS
          PREDESTINED AND UNCHANGEABLE.CAT GOT YOUR TONGUE? QUIET NOW HUH? DON’T BE MAD

          • Richard

            I didn’t see them. After a while I don’t go back to older discussions. Do you want to post them here?

          • Frank Cartwright

            Romans 8:27-31
            “Hear Your Calling”
            And he who searches the hearts of men knows what is the mind of the
            Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
            We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him,
            those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he
            foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in
            order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those
            whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also
            justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then
            shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?

          • Richard

            As I said, the predestination is referring to those who WILLFULLY choose Christ who WAS PREDESTINED TO SAVE US.

            All of the verses you posted demonstrate free will and its consequences…both good and bad. To misconstrue them as having no free will is an error in understanding.

          • Frank Cartwright

            talk about “spin”! predestination is used in the bible FOR ALL MANKIND,NOT JUST THE FOLLOWERS.second,even if just the followers were predestined,they have no free will do they? CHECK AND MATE …..again.

          • Richard

            Frank, your understanding of scripture is terrible. That is what is tripping you up. God knew from the beginning of time what would happen. Not because he determines it that way, but because he knows the beginning and the end…all the the decisions we’ll make.

            The predestination God is talking about is Christ, and those who willfully choose him. He doesn’t make that decision for us.

            For example, you are willfully rejecting God. He is allowing you to do that. But you can change your decision any time you like. That is up to you.

            If you want proof, change your mind. You’ll get your evidence.

          • Frank Cartwright

            Ephesians 6:5-8
            “Be Obedient”
            Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and
            trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; not in the way of
            eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God
            from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and
            not to men, knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the
            same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.

          • Richard

            This is all about HAVING free will and CHOOSING to obey God.

          • Frank Cartwright

            no it if you exercise your free will the result is damnation BIG DIFFERENCE! check,check and check mate!

          • Richard

            God gives you the opportunity to choose him or not. Based on your decision the consequences occur.

            The choice is yours. That clearly demonstrates free will.

            As I said, your understanding is the problem. Study can help with that.

          • Frank Cartwright

            > God gives you the opportunity to choose him or not.well if the consequence (of not choosing god) is eternal damnation,is it really a choice? no. again the bibles states god’s predestined plan for a person’s WHOLE LIFE,not just their faith but their FATE. understand?

          • Richard

            > if the consequence (of not choosing god) is eternal damnation,is it really a choice?

            If you don’t want to be with God, why would you view it as being damnation? Shouldn’t you be glad? Isn’t that what you want?

            If so, God is merely granting your wish. You should be happy about that.

          • Frank Cartwright

            tossed in a sea of flames forever (per bible) is no one’s idea of a vacation rich.i do not know about you.

          • Richard

            God describes it that way because he is the author of all things good. But those who reject him don’t gain those things, but lose them. Imagine an eternity without anything good but with all things evil.

            But if you don’t want the things of God, he leaves that up to you. But with your decision come the consequences. He makes that very clear so no one can say, “I didn’t know.”

          • Frank Cartwright

            no, men are the authors they wrote it on their paper. they received the money and power from its sales and influence.why would an all powerful god need man’s help? he could put all knowledge in our pre programmed heads(you said we are programmed yourself). if you can create all from nothing, you do not need paper, books or clergy to accomplish one’s goals.this is all human story telling.

          • Frank Cartwright

            Ephesians 1: 5-12
            “Praise His Glory”
            He DESTINED us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of HIS WILL,
            to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in
            the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the
            forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
            which he lavished upon us. For he has made known to us in all wisdom and
            insight the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS PURPOSE which HE SET FORTH in Christ as a PLAN for the fulness of time, to
            unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.IN HIM ,
            according
            to the PURPOSE OF HIM who accomplishes all things according to the
            counsel of HIS WILL we who first hoped in Christ have been DESTINED and
            APPOINTED to live for the praise of his glory._____I THINK I EMBARRASSED
            AND CRUSHED YOU ENOUGH FOR ONE DAY! CHEER UP! YOU CAN ALWAYS LOOK
            FORWARD TO A WONDERFUL LIFE AFTER DEATH IN YOUR HEAVEN FAIRY TALE!

          • Richard

            God predestined Christ to come for us. The rest is up to us. The verses you posted are all about free will.

            As I said, your understanding of the verses is your problem, not that they talk about us not having free will.

          • Frank Cartwright

            PLEASE READ AGAIN RICHARD ARE YOU JOKING? THE WORD PREDESTINED IS EVERYWHERE AS WELL AS GOD’S WILL IS GREAT AND UNMOVABLE AND FINAL. GOD PLANNED OUR WHOLE LIVES! DIDN’T YOU READ THE VERSE STATING GOD HAD A PLAN FOR US BEFORE WE WERE BORN?

          • Richard

            God does have a plan for us, but we can choose to ignore it. The story of Samson is an example. Many others.

            Your misunderstanding is the problem. Study can help with that.

          • Frank Cartwright

            so if GOD’S PLAN is to create a male born blue eyes blonde hair with a talent at sports born in 1965 in germany,I CAN IGNORE IT? and pick my own path? i can pick my parents,genetics,time ,place of birth and death?

          • Richard

            > I CAN IGNORE IT?

            Yes. In fact, you already are ignoring it. He has a better plan for you. But you are rejecting it. There’s your proof.

            God doesn’t want you to reject him. He loves you. But he is allowing you to reject him because YOU are deciding to.

          • Frank Cartwright

            now that is not even an answer i believe i stumped you once again.

          • Richard

            Take a few moments and think about it.

            God wanted the best for you even before you were born. If you had chosen to follow his plan, you would have had that life. But you didn’t choose it.

            This in itself should be all the proof you need that you have free will and ARE exercising it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            > God wanted the best for you even before you were born—you realize those are just words from men thousands of years ago right? god did not show up( literally) at breakfast any day and said “Richard we have to talk”. you have such complete trust in strangers from thousands of yrs ago.amazing. not of those words were really said by a god or proven.think about this,is it by choice your a christian? if you were 10yrs old and born in Iran,you would be a Muslim,at least until,if, you moved away.that is not choice or coincidence you are a product of you environment and family’s traditions.

          • Richard

            > you realize those are just words from men thousands of years ago

            So is the entirety of history. Does that mean you don’t believe any of it?

            As much as I’d like to continue my conversation with you, it’s time for me to leave.

            I wish you the best.

          • Frank Cartwright

            history can be challenged ,like who discovered America? (not Columbus)religion cannot be in history you were tortured and killed.

          • Frank Cartwright

            you too Richard.

          • Frank Cartwright

            how does one ignore it and pick their parents and genes time place of birth,cannot wait to hear this mess.

          • Richard

            > how does one ignore it and pick their parents and genes time place of birth

            That we aren’t in charge of. Our parents are. But because God knew your parents would conceive you, he had a plan for you should you want to choose it.

            Just because God knows all, doesn’t mean he predestines all. Knowing about and controlling are two different things.

          • Frank Cartwright

            > That we aren’t in charge of. Our parents are. But because God knew your
            parents would conceive you, he had a plan for you should you want to
            choose it.____huh!?!? what of the very “first parents”? who was in charge of them? (won again!) god did not just know,he predestined their and our fates(per your faith). again, where is the free will to initially make our fates,or the power to alter ones already in play?

          • Frank Cartwright

            Revelation 20:15
            And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire._____

            Matthew 10:28

            And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
            Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell._______

            Mark 9:43-48
            And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
            you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the
            unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is
            better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into
            hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for
            you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be
            thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not
            quenched.’_____POINT PROVEN!!!!

          • Frank Cartwright

            Do you want to find the verse that you got that
            from(condemned)?_______John 3:18 :”Whoever believes in him is not
            condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he
            has not believed in the name of the only Son of God”._____
            John 3:3
            Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born
            again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”_______ Mark 16:16 Whoever
            believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe
            will be condemned._______
            Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom
            of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
            On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
            your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in
            your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart
            from me, you workers of lawlessness.’_______2 Peter 2:1-22 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will
            be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
            heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon
            themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and
            because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed
            they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long
            ago
            is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not
            spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed
            them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he
            did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of
            righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly

          • Richard

            Once again, these talk about the consequences of our decisions. That doesn’t mean God makes them for us.

          • Frank Cartwright

            then the bible is a lie! (of course i knew that) on one hand our ways are preplanned before birth,on the other, we can chose not to believe, on the other if we use this free will and not accept we burn forever.really Richard can’t you just admit it is all an ancient fairy tale?

          • Richard

            If you don’t want to be with God, why are you viewing being separated from him as a bad thing? You should be happy. That is what you want. Or are you confused?

          • Frank Cartwright

            tossed in a sea of flames forever (per bible) is no one’s idea of a vacation rich.

          • Richard

            The choice is yours. Choose God and be accepted into his family…with all of the things God embodies. Or, don’t choose him and be separated from him and all that he embodies.

            If you don’t want to be with God, you should be happy he doesn’t drag you into heaven kicking and screaming against your will.

          • Frank Cartwright

            my god rich! is hell really a human’s good choice? now you are just playing. let me try this. if i placed a lit match to a child’s hand and tell him “if you choose god i will blow out the flame,if you choose to not listen i will place lit matches over your entire body that never go out and you never stop feeling them”! what do you think every child would “freely chose”? check mate once more.

          • Richard

            > is hell really a human’s good choice?

            Hell is the result of willfully rejecting God.

            Your analogy is flawed. It’s more like saying to someone, if you want to be my friend, you are welcome into my home. If you despise me, you aren’t welcome. The choice is yours.

            In case you didn’t know, we aren’t playing chess.

          • Frank Cartwright

            no not welcome does not = burning in agony forever,nice try though.

          • Frank Cartwright

            i would beat u in chess too.

          • Frank Cartwright

            i am too damn smart for u rich.

          • Frank Cartwright

            and you know it.

          • Frank Cartwright

            they were just two examples! and even if those are the only ones, it
            proves my views are correct.the point is obviously are brains are
            programmed like fish that swim upstream only at a certain time or
            bears hibernating. no! alcoholism is a genetic disorder.

          • Frank Cartwright

            first, here are some scriptural quotes about Predestination(no human free will)____
            Jeremiah states that God knew us even before we were born in chapter
            one, verse 4-5: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Before I
            formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart,
            I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”______Isaiah 43:7 also presents evidence that God knew us before hand and had
            plans for us, “everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my
            glory,
            whom I formed and made”.____I Corinthians 2:7 says “…we declare God’s
            wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our
            glory before time began.”____book of Ephesians Verses 4-11; “For he
            chose us in him before the creation of the world to
            be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he PREDESTINED us for
            adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his
            pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has
            freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through
            his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of
            God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,
            he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good
            pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the
            times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and
            on earth under Christ. In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED
            according to the plan of him who works out everything in
            conformity with the purpose of his will.” _____THESE PROVE, ( YOUR FAITH’S ON WORDS) THAT WE HAVE NO FREE WILL.

          • Richard

            > THESE PROVE, ( YOUR FAITH’S ON WORDS) THAT WE HAVE NO FREE WILL.

            Your understanding is the problem.

            God knows the beginning and the end. He doesn’t live in our linear space so he already knows who will be born and how they will live…not that God will force us to live in a certain way…but already knows the end result.

            God already knows what choices each person is going to make…not that he decides for us.

            God also already knows who will choose Christ and who won’t…not that he decides for us…but already knows the end result.

            Just as God knows the end and predestined salvation through Christ, doesn’t mean he determines it. We do by our choices. God merely knows all of our choices already…because he knows the beginning and the end. That’s the predestination the Bible talks about.

          • Frank Cartwright

            no your avoidance of the obvious contradictions are.

          • Richard

            The only contradiction is your understanding. I’ve explained what the verses mean.

          • Frank Cartwright

            well what does everyone else think? Richard is in denial.

          • Richard

            Most people struggle with Biblical concepts because they haven’t taken the time to understand them. Your comments are a good example. But you can fix that through study.

          • Frank Cartwright

            ask your self why would god make his ways hard to understand? why does god need a piece of paper to convey his thoughts in the first place?

          • Frank Cartwright

            Revelation 20:15
            And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire._____

            Matthew 10:28

            And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
            Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell._______

            Mark 9:43-48
            And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
            you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the
            unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is
            better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into
            hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for
            you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be
            thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not
            quenched.’_____POINT PROVEN!!!!

          • Richard

            Choices cause consequences. The verses you posted warn about the consequences of rejecting Christ.

            > POINT PROVEN!!!!

            What point?

        • amostpolitedebate

          Actually it’s both. Behavior alters the patterns in the brain. However if you change these patterns (through surgery, drugs or injury) the behavior of the brain owner is altered dramatically.

    • amostpolitedebate

      I’m not sure anyone answered your question so I’ll go ahead and try.

      Trans people often HAVE tried exactly what you’re suggesting but have found no success. It’s not about the clothing really (those people are “transvestites”). Transgenderism is an intense, deeply-certain feeling that on the inside you are a gender that doesn’t match the one you were born with and it doesn’t really respond to treatment well at all. For most trans people find that they are at their most happy when they just decide to roll with it and live as the gender they feel they are, which may or may not include surgery to alter their body. It varies quite a bit by the individual.

  • Juju

    I believe the soul is neither male nor female…

  • Peter Leh

    i dont get it and could never personally understand the inner turmoil or struggle. i just pray he finds peace.

  • hifrommark

    Frank seems to have a problem of understanding that there is NO predestination. Our free will is a gift from God and that is why in the end we decide for or against God who is the source of all love. He does NOT predestined anyone to be dammed. At least if I understand what Frank said below. We have a choice to basically say Yes or No to Love. He also seems to miss the point that I am only criticizing Jenner’s idea of a female or male soul. As someone said earlier there are no female or male souls. Also Richard is correct in what he said about free will.

  • Willem Toerien

    Last time I checked, God doesn’t make mistakes…

  • Nidalap

    This may be nitpicking but, until Bruce finally commits, he’s a transvestite, not ‘transgender’…

  • Craig Diehm

    God does not make mistakes Bruce is just another weirdo.

  • ComeOnPeople!

    Mental illness plain and simple. What the poor guy , he is so messed up.