Hindus Seeking ‘Prayer Room’ Replete with Statues of Hindu Deities at International Airports

Airport II pdNEW YORK — A Hindu organization headquarted in Nevada is seeking the inclusion of Hindu prayer rooms at international airports that have chapels available for use by adherents to various religions.

Rajan Zed, president of the Universal Society of Hinduism in Nevada, released a statement this week explaining that Hindus would like a designated prayer room at locations such as John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York and Frankfurt Airport in Germany.

“As a lot of Hindu passengers daily use JFK Airport and many Hindu employees work for various agencies and businesses there, it would be nice if they had a quiet facility at the airport where they could pray/medit­ate/worship and perform religious services,” he said.

“Prayer/worship to god was highly important in Hinduism—the oldest and third largest religion of the world with about one billion adherents—and it would be great to have a Hindu prayer service or ‘Hindu Prayer Room’ at airports so that Hindu passengers did not miss their daily worship rituals/rites while travelling through, which might include recitation of texts, repetition of mantras and dhayan (meditation),” Zed stated.

He outlined that he would like the prayer room to be complete with Hindu relics and other provisions.

“Hindus would appreciate if this ‘Hindu Prayer Room’ had murtis (statues) of popular deities, copies of sacred scriptures, a traditional bell and recorded devotional music; and once-a-week kirtan and arti session was held in it,” Zed explained.

According to the Queens Times Ledger, Zed has called on the New York Port Authority, along with Gov. Andrew Cuomo and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie to make the room available at JFK airport. Petitions are also being circulated by local Hindu groups to push for the inclusion.

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The Our Lady of the Skies Roman Catholic Chapel, International Islamic Center, International Synagogue and Christ for the World Protestant Chapel are presently offered at the location.

The University Society of Hinduism notes that the Pew Research Center has previously released information regarding the chapels available at U.S. airports to accommodate the world’s various religions.

“Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, meanwhile, has five different interfaith chapels—one in every terminal,” it quoted from the study, and “Washington Dulles International Airport, near Washington, D.C., offers weekly Catholic mass, Protestant worship and Christian prayer services, as well as daily Jewish and Muslim prayer services.”

The group also cited that Boston’s Logan International Airport opened the “Our Lady of the Airways” Roman Catholic chapel approximately 60 years ago.

South Dakota’s Sioux Falls Regional Airport recently opened a yoga room, which Zed and other Hindus applauded as being “a step in the right direction.”

“[Y]oga was a methodical effort to attain perfection, through the control of the different elements of human nature, physical and psychical,” the Punjab News Express outlined Zed as explaining.

Similar “meditation rooms” are present at the Albuquerque International Sunport in New Mexico, the Raleigh-Durham International Airport in North Carolina, and the Chicago Midway International Airport in Illinois.

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  • bowie1

    45? Shouldn’t it be an even number? (Toronto Metropolitan Community Church is also a similar “church” led by homosexual Rev. Brent Hawkes).

    • BarkingDawg

      They probably meant 45 couples.

      • Eileen Burke Miller

        That number never occurs in a hetersexual marriage because a man and woman have the confidence from the Lord to stand before him alone. I guess it helps them feel like they have the confidence or acceptance they are searching for.

        • BarkingDawg

          ??? that doesn’t make any sense.

        • Eileen Burke Miller

          Not agreeing with it, just pointing out “and thus received in their own persons the due penalty.” Might this endless search be part of what they receive…which marriage will not take away.

      • bowie1

        Reading it again I see it talks about 45 homosexuals and their partner walking down the aisle – 90 persons in total – 90 who are not following God’s design for marriage.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          I thought I would never live to see this day. I wounder what God is feeling right now? I don’t think it’s joy.

  • Lisa

    It’s like you don’t know God at all.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      They are walking away from God’s truth. This is Bible Prophecy being fulfilled. The word says many will leave the truth and follow after lies. We are that Generation.God Forgive us !

      • Lisa

        Yep, deceiving and being deceived. Too bad.
        Can I ask you? Why do you say God forgive us?

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          Because we did not fight when we should have. We kept silent when we should have spoken. Some are still afraid to speak out.Some are more worried about what the world will think of them. Some have left their first love. Just like the Bible says. To some the world view is more important than the Word of God. So yes my heart says God forgive us.
          Shalom <

          • Lisa

            So you’re asking God to forgive you too? Because you have done these things?

            So you think the things happening in the world are Christians not doing enough to stop them? Isn’t that in itself wrong thinking? These things are supposed to happen, the world getting worse and worse is predicted in scripture so if we stop it then do we call God a liar? Can we Christians really stop anything? And if we could how would we do that? You can’t make anyone do anything, even God doesn’t do that.

            It might just be me-but where in scripture does it say Christians are responsible for what happens in the world? Where we are told to stand up and fight and stop evil? I really don’t see that in scripture.

            I think you feel guilty for nothing.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Yes me too. I kept quiet. I Love the lord with all my heart. That never changed. So many things happened when I was a child. I was too young to understand. When I was a child I was in an non-Chistian home.When I got older I came to the Lord. But I was very quiet. As a child I was abused by my mom. My dad was the best dad I could have had. He broke his back when I was young. I had a hard life thought I was best to be quiet. Than the Lord showed me many things about humanity. Now I fear for the lost souls. Time is running out for humanity. People no longer know how to love. We need to learn to love the ones who hate us. Speak out to try to lead some to the Lord.The lord has put it on my heart to stand in the Gap for souls. The lord has chosen some for me to stand in the Gap for. These people hate me with a passion. Some wish I would die.I can’t stand in the Gap for the world. But I can for a few. This is a spiritual fight for Their souls through Prayer and Fasting. Now I speak out! God gave me a voice to use . Not to keep quiet. When people hate because I speak out . It is okay . The world hated Christ first. In the last month or two The Lord has been helping me to forgive . Two of the greatest emotions are to Love and to Forgive. To think I wasted so many years.
            Shalom <

          • Lisa

            Ecclesiastes 3:1
            There is an appointed time for everything, and there is a time for every event under heaven.
            I dont think you should look at it as wasting years. God works in all of us to prepare us for the work He has planned for us. Plus it’s not a waste in learning to know and trust God. I think it’s a ploy of satan to make us think we should have, could have done more and we didn’t. I think it’s good to trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding of things. Trust God that He has you ready at the right time.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Thank you:) Maybe I had a lot to learn . Didn’t think of it that way.

          • Lisa

            Your welcome! 🙂 God bless you and keep you in His care.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            May God Bless you too.

          • KenS

            Yes, we know it is going to happen, but we also know that God is longsuffering so that nonone shall perish, so if enough of His people are trying to win more souls and praying for His Will, which is that none perish, he will be longsuffering and not let it happen yet.

            2 Peter 3:4-10

            4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue * as they were from the beginning of the creation.

            5For this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

            6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished :

            7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

            8 But, beloved, be not * ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,and a thousand years as one day.

            9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance.

            10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass awaywith a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth alsoand the works that are therein shall be burned up

          • Lisa

            I agree, however more will perish then be saved. There is only that little gate that few find, but broad is the way that most people will go to their destruction. And on top of that the little gate gets even narrower when you consider too that some will fall away from the faith.

            The Bible does say He will return at a time when we are not expecting and that people will be eating, drinking and marrying until that day, a day we don’t know. We may want and hope it won’t be soon, but there eventually comes a time when God’s long suffering will end and from what I have read people will still not turn from sin and be saved.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            P.S. things are meant to happen . We can not stop thing from happening. The Lord says Many are lost and will die in their sins. If we do not try to save some God will remember that. Most will reject what we say . But if we through the Lord can save a few people the Lord will remember that. I want the Lord to remember that I at least tried to save a few. We are not to hide the truth from the world.I want to hear the Lord say well done. I want to see Bobby Mae in heaven. He hates me with a passion. He put me down because I am uneducated. He said many mean things to me. But through the Lord I forgave him. Ans I came to love him like a future brother in Christ. If he makes it I plan on giving him the biggest hug he ever got in this life:)
            Shalom < 🙂

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Our job is to fight, God’s already won. There are sins of commission and of omission.

            “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” ― Dietrich

            One example of omission is if we do not engage in the Great Commission.

          • Lisa

            Would you explain to me what this fight is that we are supposed to do and what scripture corresponds to it because I really don’t understand this fight mentality that Christians seems to have.
            I have to say I don’t care what Dietrich Bonhoeffer says but I do care if it’s what God says.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            2 Timothy 4:7

            I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

            Ephesians 6:12

            For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

            Ephesians 6:11

            Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.

            2 Corinthians 10:3-5

            For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

            1 Peter 5:8

            Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

            Ephesians 6:13

            Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

            Deuteronomy 28:7

            “The Lord will cause your enemies who rise against you to be defeated before you. They shall come out against you one way and flee before you seven ways.

            Luke 10:19

            Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

            That is just a few. We are Truth Warriors – we speak out against sin, we make disciples of the nations, we wrestle against the forces of darkness. We are not called to win in this world, but we surely are called to speak up for the vulnerable and poor – the 4000 babies being led to their deaths every day in America, the children who will be harmed by SSM, etc. Were it not for Christians, we would still have slavery in the US and the UK. If Christians don’t stand up for evil, who will? Not a-theists! There are no grounds for objective moral values or duties under a-theism. God permits evil – he surely does not author it. Hope this helps. God bless!

          • Lisa

            Let me ask you-is that what the apostles did? They spoke up for the vulnerable and poor? Did they go around speaking against sin? Were they really standing against evil? Did they go around trying to change the culture with Christianity-using all those verses you’ve quoted?

            I don’t think so. But what I do think they did is they went into towns and started telling people about how to be saved. They didn’t try to change the culture-they told people about Jesus to try to change hearts towards God.

            Is that what people are doing now? Or are they trying to tell people they should live Godly without those people knowing God? You can’t live Godly without God, why then should I tell a non Christian this is the right way to live without telling them about Jesus? It’s debatable that Christians stopped anything. Stopping evil and standing up for truth is not really what we are to do. We are to teach about Jesus hoping that our teaching will help someone to believe. I don’t believe you convince people to be Christians by telling them that they are wrong and it’s against God without telling them about being saved and then it’s their choice to believe or not.

            Christians are not culture changers or culture warriors. The sin in the world is sad but we aren’t going to change it and in fact it will only get worse. That gate is so narrow that few find it. What then shall Christians do if we aren’t to change the world? Fight the good fight of faith-stay in the faith don’t be deceived, don’t fall away because there is a lot of deception out there to be caught in. Live your life looking towards God, doing the good works He wants you to do. If that good work is talking to a young mother to be about not aborting her baby and praying for her to not abort then that’s wonderful-but I think of God using us personally one on one or in a small group to truly talk to people that we know or come into contact with. Not some movement where we gang up on people. And to me when we start saying we are warriors that’s what I see.

            When we start saying its Christians against the world, we Christains holding back evil, or we Christians must do more, say more to stop evil-I think then that we’ve got it wrong.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Did they go around speaking against sin?”

            They sure did – both inside and outside of the early Church. Jesus too said “go and sin no more.”

            “Did they go around trying to change the culture with Christianity-using all those verses you’ve quoted?”

            They set themselves apart from Christianity from the early days. They had provisions against abortion and sexual immorality from the early days.

            ” Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” — Matthew 28:19-20

            Notice the part about “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Don’t forget that part! The Gospel is the Gospel of Life – the One Who saved us is interested in EVERY aspect of our lives. Jesus healed their souls, yes, the most important thing, but He also healed their physical diseases. Why did He do this, if the Gospel is all that matters?

            “The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.” — 1 John 3:8

            Why should we not be conduits for His destroying of the devil’s work just as we are conduits for His Gospel?

            “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” — Ephesians 2:10

            Those works clearly do NOT only mean sharing the Gospel.

            “or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” — Peter 2:14

            God establishes (good) government to punish evil and encourage good – well, objective good and evil actually do not exist if there is no God. If Christians do not influence government for positive effect, then no one will. That is why, until recently when things started requiring some bravery, Christians have long held to this view.

            Christians have a long history of social reform: outlawing infanticide, child abandonment, and abortion during the Roman Empire, outlawing gladiator-type battles, branding of the faces of prisoners putting in places prison reforms – all in the early centuries of Christianity, stopping human sacrifice, outlawing pedophilia, granting of property rights and protections for women, banning polygamy, prohibiting the burning of widows in India and the binding and crippling of women’s feet in China, abolishing slavery, and of course abolishing racism (Dr. MLK, Jr was carrying a Bible around – the same Bible that the current “president” mocked), etc. That is a short list – let’s not throw these fine Christians under a bus – they made a HUGE difference in alleviating suffering AND spreading the Gospel. I won’t even get into all of the hospitals and homeless shelters and orphanages and universities that only make sense under Christian theism. You don’t think that walking through a Catholic hospital and seeing many Christian images and writings did not have ANY effect on me in my a-theistic years? God used those things to touch my soul.

            “And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.” — Matthew 10:42

            Cup of water – what happened to Gospel only? You err when you think that the Church preached a Gospel-only doctrine – even Jesus healed affirmities. I won’t even get into the Book of James, but it actually says that we should question our faith if it is not producing good works. Those works can take on many forms, you are most correct, and should always include the Gospel of course. We can and should do more.

            “But what I do think they did is they went into towns and started telling people about how to be saved.”

            We can do both, can’t we? We can give a cup of water to the thirst AND share the Gospel with them. I am a Gospel-first sidewalk counselor in front of the abortion mill – shared it several times today. Which parts of the Bible are we not supposed to preach – the active works part? The cup of water part? The prison part?

            “why then should I tell a non Christian this is the right way to live without telling them about Jesus?”

            You shouldn’t and no one is suggesting this. Gospel-centered plus Greatest Commandment, and love our neighbor as ourselves. We can do both – and should.

            “It’s debatable that Christians stopped anything.”

            Only if one ignores history. God is the One Who stops evil – He uses Christians as His conduit to do so. Just like He does with the Gospel.

            “Stopping evil and standing up for truth is not really what we are to do.”

            How can we love the One Who IS Truth if we do not stand up for ALL of His Truth?!?

            “Christians are not culture changers or culture warriors.”

            You teach a false doctrine here, I say so respectfully. We have been culture changers and truth warriors from the earliest days. Did Jesus not radically change the culture of Judea as He sent out His Church?!?

            “The sin in the world is sad but we aren’t going to change it and in fact it will only get worse.”

            Yes, and God has ALREADY won. We are called to engage in the spiritual battle – and we WILL suffer for it – God, not us, does the winning. 🙂

            “but I think of God using us personally one on one or in a small group to truly talk to people that we know or come into contact with.”

            Yes, indeed, but, I want to disabuse you from this notion of hunkering down in our churches. I fell for this not long after I became a Christian after decades of a-theism. We are not OF the world, but we are still IN the world for a purpose. God put us here in this time and place for a reason – and that reason was NOT to disengage. I know you don’t mean to imply this, but you are almost coming off as someone who blames the great Christians of history precisely FOR their courage. I am just thinking of Corrie ten Boom, right now – the courage it took to set herself apart from her surrounding culture and do what was right to save the lives of Jewish people being hunted down by the Nazis – and the price she paid for it. These are people we should admire – not throw under the bus. Lord knows how many “Christians” surrounding her in those days also threw her under the bus because what she did was illegal, dangerous, and outright radical.

            “And to me when we start saying we are warriors that’s what I see.”

            We are in a spiritual war – the Bible is clear on that. I cannot help if you don’t like it – that is what God’s Word clearly teaches.

            “When we start saying its Christians against the world”

            Shall I trot out all of the verses that show we ARE against the world and are not to be a part of worldliness? 🙂 God bless you, Lisa!

          • Lisa

            Perhaps I am wrong in my thinking. Thank you for taking the time to answer me. God bless you too.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You are clearly a strong Christian who is discerning using God’s Word, and that is all that really counts, Lisa! I am just saying that let’s replace the Gospel-only view with the Gospel-first view, and continue to obey God on as much as we can by the Power of the Holy Spirit, that’s all, not for our salvation but for sanctification purposes. You are 100% correct to be critical of the Mother Teresa approach, which was to help the poor with their earthly needs only, while not sharing the Gospel with them. That is the worst mistake we can make, right – make them comfortable during their short lives and then it’s off to an eternity of suffering?

            I’m not saying that Christians need to rise up with torches and pitchforks – just that we do need to speak out against sin more often (our churches have failed us miserably here) while in the context of spreading the Gospel. Both parts. There is no Good News if there is no recognition of the Bad News – that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Can’t tell you how many times I have been shunned by family, friends, even pastor’s wives, for speaking out on abortion, even while doing so in the most loving manner. This is a new Christian phenomena that never happened in times before our post-modern, post-Christian era.

            You don’t have to be on the sidewalk in order to pray for those who are and to support crisis pregnancy centers, etc. But I am just saying that we should strongly support and encourage those who take that risk, who spread the Gospel of Life and Truth (Jesus is Life and Truth, John 14:6), and who are hated every day for it, just as was our Savior for speaking His Truth, the only Truth. It truly is a spiritual war – the Bible is clear here, and we should strongly support and encourage those on the front lines, even if we cannot be there ourselves. May God bless you, Lisa, and thanks for the great exchange!

          • Lisa

            No, I thank you for the great exchange and thank you for your kind words about being a strong Christian. I have thought about the things you have said and that is a good thing. We all should be teachable.

            I think where you say that you’re not saying Christains need to rise up with torches and pitchforks-lol that is how I look at going to war and being in a war-and having that in my mind I disagree with that approach. I also think that reading some of the comments put forth by people calling themselves Christians here makes me see it as an us against them and fight, fight, fight and don’t let them win kinda thing, knock people over the head with the law without any compassion or teaching.

            I can understand what you have gone through in speaking out against abortion and I do commend you for doing it and going to talk with people about abortion-you do a good work there. I have come up with the same types of attitudes for other things and I have lost mother and father and other family members for Christ. I know that pain. I have lost a lot to tell you the truth which is one reason I don’t believe that Christians can change the world. Because though some Christians may be hunkered down in a church somewhere I have for the past 13 years have been in the refining fire. I would not trade it for the world-I can say that now-but I haven’t been in a place where I can stop evil, talk against evil and be some truth warrior. Where people say it’s all Christians fault for the state of the world I get angry because it wasn’t my fault. I was in God’s will but I wasn’t saving the world or holding back evil and it’s unfair to say you did nothing but let something happen when I had no control over it and I had no control over my life. I take that stuff a little too much to heart I guess.

            Before God wrecked me to make me a new creations I suppose you may be happy to know that I taught Sunday school, had a good news club, had a prayer partner, was the leader of a moms in touch group, did multiple bible studies, went to church every Sunday, read my bible all the time and prayed a lot…….it’s not so cut and dry sometimes why a Christian can’t save the world.

            Anyway-I do appreciate your taking the time to reply to me. I do have a question for you-I have been pondering this for some time now-is it ok to lie to save someone’s life?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Oh yes, I SO agree with you here. We cannot save the world, anyway, only God can – and He will! But, we still fight the good fight, realizing that it is a losing battle in the worldly sense but a winning battle in another sense. It is kind of like the old story about the boy picking up starfish from a beach littered with them, and a man coming along and saying that the boy wasn’t going to make any difference because there were hundreds out there and they were going to die, and the little boy picked another one up and threw it back into the ocean and said “Made a difference for that one.” The boy knew he was fighting a losing battle (that is our worldly battle), but he took the victories in small pieces, because he had such compassion – just as Jesus did for us.

            Keep this in mind too: if we save a baby about to go to his or her death at an abortion mill, who knows the ripple effect of that when it comes to lives affected and souls brought into the Kingdom?!? Can God not work wonders through such a miracle?!? How much bigger the effect if we pass anti-abortion laws and save hundreds of thousands of lives?

            “is it ok to lie to save someone’s life?”

            If it is the ONLY way to save the life, then what you are dealing with is a true moral dilemma, and the answer is yes. That is because in a true moral dilemma, the saving of the life outweighs the sin of the lie. These situations are rare, but they do exist. Do you want to give me more details or specifics? I can think of a situation: Corrie ten Boom often had to lie to save Jewish lives. But, it was the only way AND she was disobeying the objectively immoral man-made law of having to turn in Jews if they were discovered. In her case, to NOT lie would be to obey a man-made law that was objectively evil (in God’s eyes), so it was a pretty easy call, dangerous though it was. Ask yourself this question: What do you think God’s opinion is of those Christians who DID turn in Jews to the Nazis? Do we really have to guess on that?

            But, in general, we do not want to lie as Christians unless it is forced upon us by a true moral dilemma. Does this help at all? Maybe more specifics would be in order? God bless you, Lisa – I love your heart for Jesus – you are awesome!

          • Lisa

            Yes-i am wondering that about Corrie Ten Boom. When I read her book the first time-I didn’t even think about what she did. She did what she had to do. Then recently I reread her book and that stuck out to me like a sore thumb as did something else….but I am wondering more about lying to save someone’s life. She was annoyed with her niece because she wouldn’t lie.

            I actually don’t know what God’s opinion is about Christians who turned in the Jews. But I haven’t thought about that angle either. Christians who sent them off to their fate. And honestly I don’t know why it’s become something for me to ponder because like I said the first time it was a no brainier.

            But if God hates sin and he hates lying and satan is the father of lies-can lying to save someone’s life be ok with God? God doesn’t change-if He says lying is wrong can it become right for all the right reasons? In my mind the answer is she was wrong to lie and not trust God with their lives. That seems a bit cold and unfeeling to a human mind which is why I am pondering this. But is it cold and unfeeling to trust your creator with doing what is right? That sometimes His plan isn’t easy and you may lose your life or watch others lose theirs. Again this is just pondering-in the heat of the moment-would it become crystal clear?

            Thanks for letting me go on about this….

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            OK, Lisa, I am asking your forgiveness in advance for my passionate and strong reply below. Men approach this topic a bit differently than women, because we are wired to protect, provide, and spiritually lead and we tend to engage in confrontation more. I am a bit tough on you, but since you have already given up so much for Christ, I KNOW you can handle it. But, I am just giving you a heads-up because it is a touchy topic for me, and I want you to know my reply is still in Christian love, even if my delivery is off due to my passion.

            “I actually don’t know what God’s opinion is about Christians who turned in the Jews. ”

            Seriously? I would say that He has the same opinion of them that He has of abortion clinic escorts who lead innocent children to their deaths. I cannot imagine why it would be any different. Both are intentional acts and both know that their actions will lead to unnecessary deaths, or, at the very least, immense unnecessary suffering. But, neither one actually performs the murder themselves – they merely co-operate in the process, accessories to murder.

            “Christians who sent them off to their fate.”

            It only became their fate WHEN and BECAUSE “Christians” turned them in. Fatalistic (causal) determinism is shared by two groups of people in general but with exceptions: a-theists and 5 point Calvinists. I strongly recommend neither – because both worldviews are unlivable, IMO.

            “But if God hates sin and he hates lying and satan is the father of lies-can lying to save someone’s life be ok with God?”

            Yes. (But, many disagree with me here.) You and I sin hundreds of times a day. How many times do we get the opportunity to sin AND the sin necessarily leads to the saving of a life? (Not excusing sin, but only when it is required to save a life.) If telling the truth leads a Jew to be murdered, and it did in Corrie ten Boom’s situation, then we are an accessory to murder.

            “God doesn’t change-if He says lying is wrong can it become right for all the right reasons?”

            Lying is wrong – so is leading someone to their death. That is the nature of moral dilemmas. If the ONLY way to prevent the person from dying is to lie, then it is, of course, far better to be guilty of lying to save a life than to be guilty of accessory to murder (or manslaughter) and to be innocent of lying. (Many disagree with me – see below for those who say that the lie belongs to us but the murder belongs to another. I disagree when we KNOW the outcome, as in Nazi-controlled Holland.)

            “In my mind the answer is she was wrong to lie and not trust God with their lives.”

            Seriously? Trust God with their lives? Does that sentence you wrote not making you queasy inside? You DO realize where those Jews ended up, right? There was no uncertainty whatsoever where they were going. (Most sources, however, disagree by saying that our number one priority is to obey God’s commands, and loving our neighbor comes after that.)

            “But is it cold and unfeeling to trust your creator with doing what is right?”

            What are we trusting Him to do?!? To perform a miracle and lift those Jews out of the concentration camp and gas chambers after we turned them in? If that were the case, then why did He put us in that situation? He could do that without us here on earth at all. It seems to me that we would be failing our Creator mightily if, when He placed us in a time and place, we refrained from engaging with the enemy in that time and place. To the “Christians” in Holland who turned in the Jews, I imagine His first words upon their arrival were “Why do you think I put you there at that particular time – to behave no differently from atheists and pagans?!?” It sure as Heaven’s was not “Well done, good and faithful servant!” because they did not lie to the Nazis. “Good job keeping the 9th Commandment! Too bad about all those Jews, huh?” 🙂

            OK, here we have an example: you are walking by a closed public pool and you see a 2 year old who had slipped through the cracks in the fence (marked by big signs that say “Keep Out when closed”). It is against the law for you to go in there when it is closed and the law is a good and moral one. You see the child go down the steps into the pool. Do you break the law and jump the fence or “trust God with the child’s life?” (I guess this is mixing the lying part with the breaking man’s law part. Oh well.)

            Do you speed to get your dying child to the hospital? Do you hit another human being in order to stop him from beating up a loved one?

            “That sometimes His plan isn’t easy”

            Indeed! Corrie ten Boom chose the difficult path that showed compassion for the most vulnerable around her. She brought that “cup of water” to the Jews she hid. Every time she did so much as hid a Jew, she was lying and engaging in deception against the Nazis. The “Christians” who turned Jews into the Nazis or who turned them away chose the easy path and denied them that “cup of water.” Shame on them – eternal shame on them! Christ obviously made no difference in their lives if they behaved no differently than the many unbelievers surrounding them.

            “Again this is just pondering-in the heat of the moment-would it become crystal clear?”

            Now, THAT is the question! How many of us will deny Him, like Peter did, when we are under fire? Here are a couple of things I found out:

            “There are at least two instances in the Bible where lying produced a favorable result. For example, the lie the Hebrew midwives tell Pharaoh seems to result in the Lord’s blessing on them (Exodus 1:15-21), and it probably saved the lives of many Hebrew babies. Another example is Rahab’s lie to protect the Israelite spies inJoshua 2:5. It is important to note, however, that God never condones these lies. Despite the “positive” outcome of these lies, the Bible nowhere praises the lies themselves. The Bible nowhere states that there are instances where lying is the right thing to do. At the same time, the Bible does not declare that there is no possible instance in which lying is an acceptable option.”

            Most of the references I searched come down against my position – even in the case of Corrie ten Boom. Frankly, I am stunned. It reeks of cowardice to me. I will go to the grave not understanding that, except that what they seem to say is that the lie is mine, but the murder belongs to another. I understand that, but do not appreciate it, because my NOT lying is accessory to murder – in the case where the only way to save the life is to lie. It just seems cowardly, and post-modern fatalism. I would definitely lie, see the lives saved, and then confess my sin. But, I know that such a view could be used as an excuse to sin in cases where lives are not being saved.

            Nevertheless, I make my case only for the exceedingly rare cases where lying is the ONLY option to save a life.

            Again, sorry for putting up with my passion. Most disagree with me, especially Calvinists, but I am not fond of Calvinism in the least, and not impressed by their works, or lack thereof. God bless you, Lisa!

          • Lisa

            Wow-no kidding you have an opinion!

            I don’t think it’s the same thing about the abortion clinic escorts and the Christians who turned the Jews in. The abortion clinic escorts are there because they want to be and they don’t have a problem with what they do. I can’t say that Christians wouldn’t have a problem with making a decision to not lie to save someone’s life-which is the dilemma.

            No-the Jews fate was sealed when Hitler started to round them up, it didn’t matter whether Christians turned them in or not. They were supposed to wear their stars and were being persecuted even before they were rounded up.

            What does it matter if we sin anyway? So the it’s ok to say hey it’s just another sin lets do it anyway-at least we’ll feel good about it. You can’t even really repent of that sin when you think you’ve done right. With God it’s all sin and there are no degrees. We think mirder is the worst sin but if you even think of killing someone else and don’t do it or tell your brother raca-that’s just as bad as killing them to God. You don’t have to commit adultery with a someone-just look at them with lust. No degrees to sin it’s all sin and God hates sin.

            Yes-seriously trust God with their lives. Why does that upset you? Do you trust God with your life? We are to trust God in everything. Trust God, lean not on your own understanding? His ways are higher than our ways…. It’s almost seeming to me-and I’m also not looking to offend you-but you seem to have a lack of trust in God and in His allowing bad things to happen to people for Hos reasons. I think of Job-God had Hos own reasons for allowing job to suffer-if you could have would you have stopped it?

            Yes, there was no uncertainty where they were going, and believe me this isn’t unfeeling but it wasn’t 100% death certainty. Most did die, but not all. Corrie made it out. And honestly-God has allowed the Jews to suffer throughout history-can you say God is wrong because He allowed suffering? When Jerusalem was sacked-the Jews ate their children. We don’t know why God allows death, even horrible death sometimes. But we still have to trust Him. One day we may suffer the same fate and shall we save our lives by asking someone to lie for us or do we do we lose our lives?

            No I’m not trusting for a miracle that those people, but I am trusting myself, my family to a faithful creator in doing what’s right. I’m trusting Him that when everyone turns their backs on me and hates Me that He has some reason for it or how do I endure? How do I persevere and how do I trust Him? I have no expectations that everything works perfectly for me and I trust God that whatever comes I will still be faithful to Him. Job had no idea what was happening to him and God didn’t give him the explanation for his suffering bit instead asked God to trust Him.

            You want to obey God and do what pleases Him despite not knowing the whole story. I think you are using human logic and your own passion to ok saving someone’s life even if it means sinning. You are now saying it’s ok to go against God so evil doesn’t happen and God will tell you well done. I don’t think He will. Eve went against God and now we have sin and rebellion. You are actually being rebellious when you think you know better then God, the Jews are God’s people and He can and does allow bad things to happen to them. Same with Christians. Shall I lie to my family to save our relationships? It’s a lie, but I do something good right? Where God has His reason for allowing me to suffer. And to be a child of God I let Him do what He wants in my life.

            There will come a day where if you save your life you will lose your life and if you lose your life you will save it. That those who live by the sword will die by the sword. So then we save our lives when we lose them-that may be counter intuitive when the time comes.

            Corrie and her family did indeed choose a difficult path. But was it a good path? That is what I’m trying to deduce and I am leaning towards it wasn’t. Did they seek God or did they come up with this plan on their own? I don’t know.

            Yes the midwives lied.. Will have to consider that. Rahab did lie and helped the Jews. Will have to consider that too. The Bible does say that lying is wrong-God hates lies and the Bible has a lot to say about lying…..

            Have a good evening.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “No-the Jews fate was sealed when Hitler started to round them up, it didn’t matter whether Christians turned them in or not. ”

            What?!? What about all the Jews who escaped Europe thanks to the Corrie ten Booms? Apparently their fate was not sealed. I would like for you to address that – their fate was not sealed UNTIL a-theists and “Christians” turned them in. THEN their fate was sealed. So, it was fine for Christians to turn them in to be gassed by the Nazis? It doesn’t really matter either way? That’s not a sin? That seems to me to be the opposite of Christian love and compassion.

            “What does it matter if we sin anyway? So the it’s ok to say hey it’s just another sin lets do it anyway-at least we’ll feel good about it.”

            Turning Jews into the Nazis is not sinning? BTW, I am pretty sure that Corrie ten Boom felt REALLY good about saving all those Jewish lives. And, I am pretty sure that the ones who turned the Jews in did not feel so good about it. I seriously doubt that they were patting themselves on the back: “Whew, that was a tough dilemma. Thank God I didn’t lie even though those Jews had to die!” Wow – what a tough dilemma those “Christians” had: they could both not lie AND save their butts from the concentration camps or being summarily shot – and all they had to do was to turn in a few Jews. 🙂 Just me, but I expect Corrie to have a LOT more crowns when I meet her in Heaven than such cowardly “Christians.” Time will tell.

            “Do you trust God with your life?”

            I stand on the sidewalk in front of an abortion mill with maniac pro-aborts cussing me out and threatening bodily harm on one side, and cars passing by “losing control” and almost running up the sidewalk before swerving back in their lanes at the last second on the other. So, yes, I most certainly do trust God with my life – I just don’t trust Nazis with the lives of Jews. And, I would not trust my life with a Calvinist, because they make God out to be the author of sin. But, I must admit: they have some of the best worship services round – they can belt out a hymn while the Jews are being carted up. 🙂 In fact, they hold God’s Sovereignty so high, they won’t get off their butts to lift a finger for the poor:

            ““When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

            34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

            37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

            40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

            41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

            44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

            45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

            46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”– Matthew 25

            That is fairly clear on the subject, no? 🙂

            “It’s almost seeming to me-and I’m also not looking to offend you-but you seem to have a lack of trust in God and in His allowing bad things to happen to people for Hos reasons.”

            I don’t have any problem allowing bad things happen to people. I just don’t desire to be complicit in bad things happening to people by turning Jews into the Nazis. I don’t walk past the beggar in the street and tell him “Trust God, your suffering will do you good” and then keep going on happily in the knowledge that God has a purpose for that man’s suffering. I also don’t think there is any good reason for a Christian to not be speaking out regularly on America’s Holocaust just because 58 million human beings have been put to death because God allowed it.

            “I think of Job-God had Hos own reasons for allowing job to suffer-if you could have would you have stopped it?”

            How would I have stopped Job from suffering? By bringing him a cup of cold water? 🙂 What is the difference between your religion and Hinduism, which believes that the lower, suffering castes should suffer for their own good and the upper castes should not interfere with it?

            “Yes, there was no uncertainty where they were going, and believe me this isn’t unfeeling but it wasn’t 100% death certainty.”

            Now, you are making me laugh, truly laugh. 6 million Jews, but you aren’t being unfeeling? I am sorry but you are cracking me up, Lisa.

            “Corrie made it out.”

            But, her sister Betsie did not. She died in the same concentration camp that Corrie was in. And, let’s face it: they could have been shot on the spot for hiding Jews.

            “And honestly-God has allowed the Jews to suffer throughout history-can you say God is wrong because He allowed suffering?”

            There is a difference between God allowing suffering, and our contributing to it by turning in Jews or our not alleviating it when we are given the opportunity. Do you see that?

            “One day we may suffer the same fate and shall we save our lives by asking someone to lie for us or do we do we lose our lives?”

            Nope, the decision to save us is up to the other individual, not us. Besides, God already saved me.

            “Did they seek God or did they come up with this plan on their own?”

            They read and studied the Bible every day. Pretty sure they had a better understanding of it than we post-modern comfy American Christians. They chose a very dangerous path – to save those who were the most vulnerable. In order to do so, they engaged in deception against the most wicked people and immoral laws. Most Christians consider Corrie ten Boom to be a tremendous heroine, but I seriously wonder if this question is coming up in this day and age on the internet and Corrie is being questioned precisely because we are surrounded by cowardly “Christians” at a time when Christians are having to decide if they are going to serve America’s godless laws or go God’s way instead, and who want an excuse for not rocking the boat and just obeying the laws, regardless of how immoral they are. Remember, Corrie ten Booms were exceedingly rare. (And, no, it wasn’t because all the other people – “Christians” and a-theists and pagans – were all “torn up” about whether or not to lie to help the Jews. It was because they were saving their own butts, cowards all.)

            But, I do want you to know that one of my favorite theologians, Wayne Grudem (a Calvinist, no less) agrees with you. Sure would not want to be a Jew and have the bad luck of picking his house, because his great theology would be of little help to me. 🙂

            What about the examples of breaking good moral laws in order to save lives – the 2 year old going into the pool, speeding, etc. Those are all sins, right? Speeding is a sin, no? Do you sin by breaking into another’s property to save the drowning child? Or do you “trust God” to turn him into Michael Phelps? 🙂 Sorry, could not resist. God bless you, Lisa – I really do love the exchange!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            3 more things I thought of:

            1. One source said that given the wickedness of the Nazis, they had no deserved claim on the truth. This observation would be consistent with the Biblical stories where lying turned into virtuous results. (Not invoking an “ends justify the means” philosophy here – just that in either case, SOME sin was going to result.)
            2. In most cases of lying, the sinfulness is associated with selfishness and cowardice, but Corrie lied out of altruism and courage. This may give us a clue on how to resolve the moral dilemma in certain situations.
            3. One other possibility is to be evasive in the answer: “What do you mean Jews?!?” “What makes you think there are Jews here?!?”

            I think that options 2 and 3 might help us navigate this a bit more, and certainly option 1 appears to be valid, maybe. FWIW – God bless!

          • Lisa

            She and her family took the mother Theresa approach. They saved those people from suffering and even death but they didn’t share the gospel with them. So they lie and deceive people and still didn’t share the gospel. Ya, they had their Bible readings but the brother was a pastor-nothing in the book about he shared the gospel. She and her sister ran clubs sharing the gospel and discipling young people and again no where in the book is she found sharing the gospel with anyone. When they went to prison-that is where they shared but not before.

            They had a respect for Jews and life that is commendable but maybe they had too much respect for God’s people that they didn’t even Though they knew that they could be caught at any time and the Jews taken from them and sent to the camps ANYWAY-not one decided this is a good time to talk to these people about Jesus.

            So in my thinking she lied and deceived but what was the profit here? Or should we just say humanly speaking she saved their physical life-job well done?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “She and her family took the mother Theresa approach. They saved those people from suffering and even death but they didn’t share the gospel with them.”

            You think that the folks who turned the Jews in DID share the Gospel with them? (I wouldn’t trust someone like that with anything but a false “gospel.” “OK, here is the deal: Jesus sacrificed Himself for us, but I am going to sacrifice you, Mr. Jew, for me, so I can save my skin AND not get caught lying to those nice Nazis.” :-)) I don’t know if Corrie shared the Gospel with them or not. I know that those Jews ate with them, and prayed with them before their meals. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I will tell you one thing: a Jew living in the home of Corrie ten Boom had infinitely more chance of trusting (TRUSTING) Jesus as Lord and Savior (SAVIOR) than one in just about any other home in Holland.

            I think just having the courage to hide them is a big part of the Gospel of Life. What do you think the chances are that if a “Christian” shared the Gospel with a Jew and then turned him into the Nazis, the Jew would want anything to do with Christ?!? I sure wouldn’t want anything to do with a god who held me to the fine points of the Law while missing the big picture. (see the reply in my other post about Jesus healing on the Sabbath – a violation of the Law).

            “Or should we just say humanly speaking she saved their physical life-job well done?”

            It is ALWAYS good to save a life – especially the life of an unbeliever. Even if she did not directly share the Gospel, and that is debatable given how much this family’s life revolved around the Good Book, have you ever heard the phrase “You may be the only “Bible” that an unbeliever reads?” How about “Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care?”

            This is a great exchange, Lisa, it actually is helping me a lot since I tend toward legalism in keeping the Law myself, and I am being forced to debate against that view right now. I think we have to recognize that God is going to give us His Grace when we are confronted with TRUE moral dilemmas (and this is one – we aren’t talking about a husband lying to his wife about an affair here). We both know, deep down, that it is wrong to out the Jews – because in telling the truth, we are making ourselves a part of wickedness (the Nazis), and we are being cowardly, callous, and, frankly, lazy. Jesus sacrificed for us – he laid down His Life for us. We can do the same for the Jews and whatever vulnerable people we encounter today, like the 4000 babies going to their deaths each day at abortion mills around the country. God bless – and thank you SO much for fleshing this out for me! We need to be ready, because our day is coming soon!

          • Lisa

            Just so you know- I wasn’t advocating killing Hitler or anyone else, and I didn’t mean it as a joke either. I meant it as its murder and we shouldn’t do it. Just like we shouldn’t lie.

            I think once you start excusing wrong then you’re in a bad area. But I’m done talking about this.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “I think once you start excusing wrong then you’re in a bad area. ”

            Then why did Jesus do it in Matthew 12?

            Personally, I think that once you start behaving like a Pharisee by keeping to the law and ignoring Grace and Mercy, then you’re in a bad area because you have missed the Grace of the Lord Jesus for OT legalism. I don’t use that word lightly, partly because I am the one who is routinely accused of it. And, BTW, YOU are also excusing wrong: the wrong of turning in Jews to the Nazis. You are WRONGLY participating in wickedness – is that not a sin?!?

          • Lisa

            Romans 6:1
            What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            That is one of my favorite verses to quote too!

            So, are you using that verse to say that Jesus was wrong in Matthew 12? It appears so!

            And, are you also using that verse to justify your sinning, out of cowardice and selfishness, by aiding and abetting the wicked Nazis? Perhaps you are on the “wrong team?”

            When it becomes illegal to shelter Christians in our homes, I pray to God that none of them show up at your door. With friends like you, who needs enemies? 🙂 God bless you, Lisa!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Oh, one more thing I thought of on this one. Recall that this discussion began with “Is it OK to lie if it is the ONLY way to save someone’s life?”

            So, we are discussing something that we may never see in our lifetime, a true moral dilemma in which no matter what we do we will sin (either by lying or by not saving a life when we could have), but which appears more and more likely as the days pass. Because of this, Romans 6 does not apply: that is for people who say that we should sin more so as to increase the abundance of God’s Grace. No one is suggesting that. In fact, the sin of letting someone die would arguably require more of God’s Grace for forgiveness than the sin of lying – assuming that one was necessary, as in this true moral dilemma.

            Now, the question for you is the same as it was for Corrie: you can engage in the sin of lying (to the Nazis) and perform mercy and compassion (which is what God’s Grace rests on, right?) toward the Jews, or you can tell the truth (thus avoiding that sin) while engaging in the sin of participating in the wickedness of the Nazis (by helping them carry out their atrocities against the Jews, surely a bigger sin than baking a gay cake for a gay “wedding,” which is clearly a sin for Christians) AND the sin of withholding compassion and mercy from your fellow vulnerable man, the Jews.

            It is clear which way Jesus went in Matthew 12: He showed mercy and compassion on those He healed while not adhering to the letter of the OT Law, which He came to fulfill, not abolish. He did so based on the analogy of rescuing a sheep from the pit, an awfully good fit for what Corrie ten Boom did for the Jews. So, you are free to pick your sin, Lisa, but do not delude yourself into thinking that collaborating with the Nazis is not a sin. God bless!

          • Lisa

            Or let’s look at it this way, why save a few with lies? Why not murder and save many? Since they were going against God anyway with lies and deceit-why not murder Hitler and save all those Jews from dying? Especially since we are talking about saving lives and we are going to disregard God to do it. They can still repent later can’t they?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Haha – not a bad idea! 🙂 My cousin, a very strong Christian, actually said that when the Nazis (that would be Democrats in America) show up at his door, they will receive a shotgun blast to the chest, under Just War Theory. Then, he will let God sort out the details. 🙂 Now, check this out, Lisa:

            “1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

            3He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’a you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

            9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

            11He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

            13Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.” — Matthew 12

            OMG – Jesus healed on the Sabbath! What WILL you do with Him, Lisa – he violated a Commandment?!? Ask Him if He is going to murder now. 🙂

            Now, focus on verses 9-13. Is it possible, Lisa, that in adhering to the fine print of the Law, you have missed the forest for the trees? Are you abandoning your sheep (the Jews) to the pit (the Nazis), because you do not wish to violate the Law by healing on the Sabbath (lying to a wicked person)? “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Show us your mercy for those Jews in hiding, Lisa. God bless you, Girl – I love your heart for the Lord!

  • FoJC_Forever

    Homosexuality isn’t about the Love of God. Homosexuality is about perverted sexual lust and perverted emotional affection coming from the carnal nature.

    Judgement is coming.

    • BarkingDawg

      you seem fixated on sex.

      • All In

        You seem fixated on eternal destruction.

        • BarkingDawg

          Not according to my beliefs.

          • All In

            > Not according to my beliefs.

            Can you prove your beliefs are true? Can you prove God isn’t real? Can you prove Jesus never rose from the dead?

            Until you can prove the above, your beliefs are fantasy and nothing more. Sadly, you’ll be held accountable for your beliefs, even though they are fiction.

          • Taussig

            can you prove that your beliefs are true? that god is real? that jesus rose from the dead? Until you prove these things, your beleifs are fantasy and nothing more. See how that works?

          • Tyler Mitchell

            And yet…here you on a Christian website.Someones spirit is trying to talk to them!See how THAT works!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Nice reply, Tyler!

          • StereoMan

            Not particularly.

          • Taussig

            no gods needed Tyler. this is a public forum that spreads falsehoods about gays and lesbians..that why I’m here….

          • Willem Toerien

            What is false about a same-sex not being able to reproduce? Nevermind God, evolutionary speaking, what does natural selection say about same-sex relations in relation to the species?

            Further more, you say “no gods” needed? The word “god” used in the scriptures is the word “el” or “elohim”. It is usually a reference to “judge”, “authority” or “mighty one”. You are a servant unto whom you obey? So technically, you are your own god if you aren’t obeying Yahuwah-God. So if no “gods” are needed, you are saying Yahuwah and those who don’t obey Him aren’t needed. Therefore by definition, only the ones who obey Yahuwah-God are needed. Thus affirming @disqus_rKkBCWjW1k:disqus … “here you on a Christian website”….

          • Coach

            In all fairness Taussig, this article says nothing about gays and lesbians. What are some of these falsehoods you speak of?Homosexuality is sin as stated in the Bible. God calls Christians to spread the gospel, which is needed if you have any hope of avoiding the wrath to come on all ungodliness, including the many people who supposedly worship in church, while living in unrepentant immorality. . Before you mock as I suspect you’ll do, consider the reality that this isn’t an I told you so, heed the warning, nobody who spends eternity in hell will have anyone say “I told you so”, it’s a place of isolation and torment, hence the seriousness of calling sin for what it is. Eternity never ends and nobody in hell will feel they are there unjustly, but will be fully aware of God’s righteous judgement. Many unbelievers suppress that reality because sin is fun and the sin nature rebels against God. To say you are strong and don’t need to believe in God, because you’re self-sufficient aligns with the rest of the world, created in the image of God, yet seeking to serve a god created in the image of man. Many call it atheism, but in reality, atheists are just as devout religiously as muslims, both having in common, the worship of false deity. Assembling together in effort to destroy Christianity, claiming not to follow satan, when there is no neutral ground, you follow Satan, who directs the pattern of evil in the world (ex. from homosexuals just want to be left alone to suing photographers for not shooting a homosexual wedding, when 20 years ago not a society in the world accepted the so-called union, but following their leader, false churches wed homosexual pairs). 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

            Believe it or not, everyone will give God glory, you will do it at some point, because He’s worthy. Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

            But for those who repent and believe the gospel, their eternity is changed, not simply when they die, but while alive a truly born-again Christian is given a new nature. When this so-called church mocks God by marrying these pairs, they deceive themselves and their judgement is worse.

            1 John 5:4 “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

            Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[a] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[b] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

            You have no idea how many real Christians there are who were in your exact same shoes, carrying the same mocking unbelief.

            Aside from your salvation, let one of us Christians know how we can pray for you, in either case you’ve come to the right sight, you’ll be prayed for.

          • tigersfan61

            Brother…That will PREACH!

          • StereoMan

            I appreciate you and your efforts.

          • Willem Toerien

            Can you prove that you are real? Can you prove that it is not just some cat that is walking on a keyboard and typing the keys that by chance forms the exact words and things as they are right now, even if it appears that someone is replying? The likely hood of that happening is better than the likely hood of life coming to be from non living elements. Until you prove these things, your beliefs are fantasy and nothing more. See how that works?


          • Coach

            Jude 1

            Greeting to the Called

            1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

            To those who are called, sanctified[a] by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

            2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

            Contend for the Faith

            3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

            Old and New Apostates

            5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

            8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

            Apostates Depraved and Doomed

            12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

            14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

            Apostates Predicted

            16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

            Maintain Your Life with God

            20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

            22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

            Glory to God

            24 Now to Him who is able to keep you[f] from stumbling,
            And to present you faultless
            Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
            25 To God our Savior,[g]
            Who alone is wise,[h]
            Be glory and majesty,
            Dominion and power,[i]
            Both now and forever.

          • Martin Fisher

            Naturally you do not believe, rejecting the testimony of the law, the prophets and apostles. As scripture well says, the natural man receives not the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned.

          • Gehennah

            Can you prove your beliefs are true?

            No, but my beliefs tend to go with the actual evidence presented instead of wishful thinking.

            Can you prove God isn’t real?

            No, because you generally can’t prove a negative. But so far everything that we’ve discovered the cause of that was one attributed to a god or gods, has been turned out to be naturalistic processes, and there is no reason to think that that is going to change anytime soon.

            Can you prove Jesus never rose from the dead?

            Nope, but at the same time there isn’t enough evidence of Jesus’s existence for me to believe in him, and certainly not enough evidence to accept any of the miracles attributed to him.

    • Disqusdmnj

      Judgement is like soccer in the US… it’s the sport of the future, and it always will be.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Is that a judgment you just made? 🙂

        • Disqusdmnj

          Awww, come on… you haven’t heard that one before? It’s one of my favorites! ; )

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            It’s the first time I have heard it – very clever.

          • Disqusdmnj

            Admittedly, most times I use it, I don’t think the other person is smart enough to catch the intended meaning! It is subtle and clever, and often over people’s heads.

          • Jean

            Appeal to your God-given intelligence which you presume is better than others’? You never stopped and wondered that maybe them people’s heads don’t feel like justifying your dumb “subtle cleverness” with any reply at all. That maybe we just let you walk on by to your doom whilst thinking: “pity the fool.” We avoid you wolf in sheep’s clothing type. Those who openly war against God. Let them fall. Let them bruise and maybe, just maybe, they learn something. But since you claim to see better than others, I suspect you will remain blind. “pity”

    • alexinfinite

      Heterosexuality has nothing to do with god either you nut job

  • http://www.amd-nat.blogspot.com Pralana Anggi

    🙁 very very sad .. why this happened ?? 🙁 God bless.

    do not give priority to human rights exceeds the Lord’s commands.
    Human rights should be upheld but the Bible and God’s command over human rights.

  • BarkingDawg

    See, people can accept this and move on.

    • All In

      Sinners can accept it (because they are sinners). But real Christians can’t, since Christians abhor sin.

      Sinners will only accept this until just after their last breath. After that, they will reap the full consequences of their rebellion against God. There’s no escaping that for anyone not covered in Christ.

      • BarkingDawg


        If it has nothing to do with you, then mind your own business.

        • All In

          Christians have been commissioned to share the good news and stand up for God. That’s our duty.

          What’s your reason for coming here day after day spreading your nonsense? Satan doesn’t reward anyone for serving him. In fact, he enjoys using and destroying you.

          • Missi Cowan

            My opinion is this…
            Jesus NEVER forced anyone to hear him. They came on their own,and he never asked any of them of their preferences. Are you better than He? I applaud your convictions. I respectfully disagree with them being forced upon us, just as I am of so many things forced upon us as of late.

        • Oboehner

          Then shut up and quit pushing it, especially here of all places.

    • Oboehner

      Next they’ll be “accepting” pedophiles, bestiality, incest…

      • StereoMan

        Pedophiles – no, that is abuse and non-consensual.
        Bestiality – no, that is abuse and non-consensual.
        Incest – No, that is stupid.

        Batting a thousand.

        • Dave_L

          Back in school were rumors of some boys would visit a Catholic Priest for sex. They were children but very willing. All they have to do is lower the arbitrary age of consent a few notches.

          Animals are consensual or they wouldn’t be able to function. Laugh now, vomit later.

          Incestuous marriages are already in the works.

          • StereoMan

            Just because a young body is able to function sexually doesn’t mean that consent has been automatically granted. There is an age issue because a child cannot LEGALLY consent.

            An animal is not consensual because it cannot say “I do.”

          • Dave_L

            Consent depends on where someone draws the age line. Today lines are apt to move.

            Male animals can not function unless they want to. God ordered their destruction along with the people who used them for masturbation purposes. God condemns Homosexuality along with bestiality.

          • StereoMan

            A child will always be deemed unable to consent. Nothing will change there.

            If God condemns homosexuality he’s sending a very mixed message by creating homosexuals.

          • Dave_L

            So, Homosexuals are created?

          • StereoMan

            If the scientific community is to be believed, yes. Not to mention homosexuals themselves who will tell you they did not choose their attraction.

          • Dave_L

            So we have two races? The human race and the homosexual race?

          • StereoMan

            One race. Homosexuals are humans.

          • Dave_L

            Then there is no excuse for their sin.

          • StereoMan

            It isn’t sin. It’s loving another human being in the only way their biological makeup will allow.

          • Dave_L

            It is lust, not love as defined by the Bible.

          • StereoMan

            Well then the Bible is wrong.

          • Dave_L

            “God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.” (Romans 3:4, KJV 1900)

          • StereoMan

            This isn’t a matter of trusting science with a guess. It’s a matter of relying on science with facts and evidence and proof.

          • Dave_L


          • Princess Sheilyia


        • Homer for God

          I remember those same arguments about homosexual behavior twenty years ago. Never say never…God Bless

          • StereoMan

            Really? So 20 years ago homosexuals did not consent?

          • Homer for God

            Sorry you don’t see the real point we are saying. We don’t look at out statement as narrowmindedly as yourself.

            1.At one point in very recent history, homosexual behavior was viewed as taboo as beastiality, pedophilia, incest and polygamy
            With the acceptance of homosexual behavior and polygamy, it’ll be a matter of time the others will follow suit. Look at shows like sister wives and family guy. All it takes is the right kind of influence.

            2. Other countries in recent history have already adopted homosexual behavior as norm long before America and we have just followed in line. Those same countries also have laws that marrying as young as 12 legal and it will be a matter of time before America joins.

            Point is this #lovewins initiative has opened the justification for other groups to use to act out their perversions and when those laws are passed will you support it?

            “Pedophiles – no, that is abuse and non-consensual.
            Bestiality – no, that is abuse and non-consensual.
            Incest – No, that is stupid”

            Believe me right now somewhere someone will take offence to your statement and will do the same to get their “rights” as those practicing homosexual behavior.

            Judgement is coming
            God Bless

        • Tyler Mitchell

          A man putting his twig in another mans butt is not abuse??Okay genius..let’s stick with “MENTAL ISSUES” then.

          • StereoMan

            But straight people never do that?

        • Oboehner

          Pedophiles – B4Uact – every bit as born that way as your homo friends.
          Bestiality – do you ask for consent when eating a hamburger? No consent is irrelevant, try again – every bit as born that way as your homo friends.
          Incest – you’re just being a hateful bigot, every bit as born that way as you homo friends.

          • StereoMan

            And after all this time, Boner shows that he still has no concept of consent. Also, bestiality isn’t eating hamburgers, it’s having sex with live animals. B4Uact show they understand consent about as well as you do. Fail on all accounts. Might have to share this one with FSTDT dot com.

        • Willem Toerien

          Pedophiles – until the kid gives his consent and says “it’s love”
          Bestiality – the dog’s tail is wagging.
          Incest – As long as they love each other.
          same-sex – no, that is just stupid.

          So right and wrong (truth) is what you say it is?

          • StereoMan

            It doesn’t matter if the kid gives consent. If he’s below the age of consent, it’s rape.
            Animals cannot consent. Period. So that’s considered an act of abuse.
            Incest – I personally don’t care.

            Do you understand consent laws? I’m guessing not.

          • Willem Toerien

            Cultures have different age limits, some as young as nine and others as old as 25. Some animals actually go for it, the woman just have to lie still…

            It really does look like your views are subjective to what you say is right and wrong… Because, is your right and wrong the moral standard? If not, why does your opinion on right and wrong matter rather than the next person’s opinion on right and wrong?

      • Kara Connor

        Do point to a country with same sex marriage where any of that has been legalized. We’ll wait.

        • Dave_L

          Denmark’s Bestiality Problem: It’s Legal

          thedailybeast (DOT) com/articles/2014/10/14/denmark-s-bestiality-problem-it-s-legal.html

          • Kara Connor

            And the causative relationship to marriage equality is….?
            Hint: It’s never been illegal there.

          • Dave_L


          • WorldGoneCrazy

            That’s what you get, Dave, for providing facts to an ideologue: gibberish. 🙂 Well-played.

        • Oboehner

          They are riding the wave, be patient you other pervert friends will find legality.

          • Kara Connor

            So the answer is, no this has not happened as a consequence of marriage anywhere in the world. Your inability to form logical arguments is one of the many reasons you are licking your wounds after losing big time in the Supreme Court.

          • Oboehner

            No other culture seems to be as depraved as right here in America, the Supreme Court through the door wide open – it won’t be long and all the other deviants will come home to roost, the polygamists are already on it. Then we have “B4Uact”.
            I am not “licking” anything, I’ll leave that to you and your friends.

          • StereoMan

            B4Uact – a pedophile organization completely unrelated to any of this. And illegal as well. So lame.

          • Kara Connor

            And again you have nothing. Your views have more in common with Iran or ISIS than America.

          • Oboehner

            Says you.

          • Ken Campbell

            and at the same time, using the fun ‘slippery slope’ argument, we shall expect Christians to be requesting witch burning soon

          • Oboehner


          • Ken Campbell

            It is in their blood Oboehner. Christians are bent on revenge and will soon be bringing in laws suggesting stoning and burning as appropriate punishments. I’m sure that tribunals of priests will also be adjudicating blaspheme accusations.

          • Oboehner

            Next they’ll be shutting down the businesses and fining into oblivion and making death threats to those who oppose them… oh wait, that’s the gays.

          • StereoMan

            No they won’t, Boner. Paranoid schizophrenic revenge fantasies, nothing more.

      • Gehennah

        Pedophiles and bestiality tend to have a lack of consent which is kind of important.

        As far as incest, we have psychological reasons to tend to not accept it (studies show a majority of the time incestuous relationships tend to occur from priming during childhood where they are being prepared their entire life to go this route which makes actual informed consent impossible).

        • Oboehner

          Bestiality needs no consent, mull that one over while you eat your next hotdog.
          As far as incest, it is every bit by birth as homosexuality – period. What’s good for one is good for all, we wouldn’t want to discriminate now would we?

          • Gehennah

            Sex always requires consent, or it is rape. Now I do understand many Christians don’t understand consent, but that’s not my problem.

            And you’re going to have to back up your incest claim with some peer reviewed papers.

          • Asemodeus

            It isn’t that they don’t know as much as that they don’t care. Consent isn’t a moral issue to them.

          • Oboehner

            So is your hamburger murder?

          • Gehennah

            Killing an animal for food and raping it are two different things, so no.

            I understand consent is a really weird thing for many Christians to understand, but you really should try to wrap your head around it.

          • Oboehner

            Murder is better than rape then, I’ll try and wrap my head around that.

          • Gehennah

            Its ok, I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around out absolutely moronic you are.

          • Oboehner

            Nice caring, tolerant response hypocrite. You’re the one making the claim that murder is better than rape.

          • Gehennah

            No, you’re the idiot putting words into my mouth.

            Unlike you, I actually care about others. Let me know if you ever want to have an adult conversation.

          • Oboehner

            “Killing an animal for food and raping it are two different things…” You put the words in your own mouth.

            “Unlike you, I actually care about others.” “I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around out absolutely moronic you are.” Right.
            As far as incest, I can use the exact same “peer reviewed papers” you do, sexual attraction is sexual attraction so matter the target – simple really, so the guy caught having sex with the dead deer carcass (no consent needed) is every bit as “born that way” as any homo.

          • Gehennah

            You have the peer reviewed research?

            Because when it comes to incest, studies show that it is almost always do to priming for it, which kills your ability to consent.

            And I’d love to see your necrophillia research.

          • Oboehner

            Honest principles of sexual attraction apply to ALL, even homosexuality. Homo is a learned behavior like any other deviant behavior.

          • Gehennah

            By all means, submit your research on the subject to a peer review psychological journal showing how you came to this conclusion and the study controls. You’ll overturn the modern understanding of homosexuality.

          • Oboehner

            The modern “understanding” of homosexuality is rife with political agenda, swapped for truth by militant deviants who wish to push their perversion as “normal”.

      • alexinfinite

        Oh yes, because there is such a large movement for these things…

        • Oboehner

          You’d be surprised.

          • StereoMan

            The word is “amused”.

          • alexinfinite

            I have no doubt there are some. There’s always a few freaks out there. But as I asked, do you see any large organized movement pushing for these things? No. And you never will

          • Oboehner


          • alexinfinite


  • Anna

    These people must not really know God

    • BarkingDawg

      just keep telling yourself that.

  • johnnycab23513

    The Church is made up of all who worship Christ and follow his laws. Ministers teach the word of God. Marriage is a vow between a man and and a woman, as taught by real ministers to the real Church. This clown circus meats none of these requirements, and is a display of Satan.

    • BarkingDawg

      over time, this will become more and more common and you will have to find something else to make you feel “special.”

      • All In

        God makes His children feel special. Satan could care less about you. You are a pawn in his game and you don’t even know it. You’ve really been deceived.

        • BarkingDawg

          As they say down south, “bless your little heart.”

          • All In

            You can say whatever you want. Unless you accept Christ and repent of your sins, none of it will matter.

          • StereoMan

            Accept him…or else.

          • Homer for God

            yes…God Bless.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Not really. He’s not going to force you into Heaven against your will:

            “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

            (BTW, good to see you again, StereoMan – enjoyed our conversations a couple of weeks ago!)

          • Taussig

            yea…OR ELSE!!!

      • johnnycab23513

        We are not special, only saved. I will pray for you, BD.

  • Dave_L

    If the LGBT movement doesn’t discriminate, shouldn’t they call themselves LGBTS where S represents the Straight sector? Isn’t their “rainbow” perhaps missing a few colors?

    • Dave_L

      If they are “so” normal, why do they differentiate between themselves and “normal” people?

      • Eileen Burke Miller

        Good point: liberals teach them to be held up as victims that need special treatment. Thus, the reasoning to walk all over the rights of others to receive their own desires. It’s a liberal disease: victimization. When they become the victim, they can (are led to) accuse innocent people of their fictional oppression.

        • Taussig

          the real problem is people just like you who try to suppress, deny rights, and force religion upon others

          • Homer for God

            Again, facts are presented and it’s your choice to believe or not. No one is forcing you to do anything. What you choose is between you and God in the end, and that end is coming soon.
            God Bless!

          • Taussig

            what facts? blah, blah, blah……the bible? riiiiiight….those “facts”…..

          • Homer for God

            Yes those facts..not a hard concept.
            God bless

          • StereoMan

            Actually it is a hard concept why you’d follow a book written by human beings believing without proof that it’s the word of God.

          • Homer for God

            Of course it’s hard for you to grasp you are blind to the truth. Several history books have been written by human beings long ago also without physical proof today, but only the Bible is definitive law. It’s the only bestseller whose record will never be beat.
            The reason I don’t respond to your claim odds because I already chose to seek answers about history from God. You have chosen to seek answers from man and took man’s word to follow. By doing so, you are subject to believe whatever sounds good you at the time.
            Faith teaches us to believe without sight. You can choose to ignore what you physically can’t see, but that is between you and God in the end….God bless.

          • StereoMan

            Homer, it’s really important for you to understand that when you use words like “truth” you’re talking about one thing and one thing only – your opinion. Yes, I recognize that lots of people buy Bibles. There are lots of Christians. There are lots of Muslims too, and I don’t agree with them either, and they too would swear to me that they are peddling “truth”.

            You don’t know God. You have no idea about God. You know a book that claims to be the word of God but was written by human beings speaking on God’s behalf. Human beings have this THING about talking on God’s behalf, have you noticed that?

      • Taussig

        they don’t …people like you do

    • Bryttany Nikole

      The LGBT is a shortened form acronym.

      The full acronym is:


      The LGBT Pride flag covers all of humanity, not just a limited portion. It is all inclusive.

      • Dave_L

        They forgot animals….

        “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.” (Leviticus 18:22–23, KJV 1900)

        • The Last Trump

          Give ’em a minute. It’s still early…

          • StereoMan

            No, Trumpy, no animals. But how very surprising you’d jump on that slippery slope bandwagon.

          • The Last Trump

            Well, what do you know! Bring up the topic of animal “love” and look who shows up! Alas, NOT surprising at all.
            Almost didn’t recognize you there, Mister “this comment has been deleted”!
            But then you spoke! 🙂

          • StereoMan

            Animal “love”, Trumpy? Did I say that? Or did you? Haven’t learned yet about strawman arguments? Is the only way to demonize your opponents by misquoting them? Hee, hee! You’d be a riot on a witness stand in a court of law!

      • Dave_L

        Take away the “Straight” and you’ve got the index for “the encyclopedia of perversion.” If this were a test, which designation does not fit with the others? Hint; it is the one where a couple can actually produce an offspring.

        • Taussig

          when did offspring become a prerequisite for anything? I guess couple who are sterile are perverts? moron

        • Bryttany Nikole

          Actually, stem cells from skin can be turned into viable eggs and sperm.

          As such, a lesbian couple can have a biological child between just the 2 of them. One offers up the ski stem cells, they are turned into sperm, then used to fertilize her partner’s egg via IVF.

          Same goes for same sex male couple.. A man’s skin stem cell can be turned into s viable egg and fertilized by his boyfriend/husband and can be carried to term via implantation into a surrogate mother..

          But if that isn’t enough for you, Sweden has completed successful Uterus transplants that have brought babies to full term and delivery via C-Section.

          This procedure is important to women with uterian problems and transgender women and gay men wishing to carry their biological children to term themselves.

          But science isn’t your strong point, is it !?!

          • Dave_L

            Why not just adopt? This all sounds pretty “unnatural” if you ask me….

          • Bryttany Nikole

            You said, “If this were a test, which designation does not fit with the others? Hint; it is the one where a couple can actually produce an offspring.”

            I was pointing out that same sex couples can have biological children and trans women and gay men can carry babies to term and give birth via C-Section.

            So by your test, all gender identities and sexual orientations meet your offspring test.

            Heck, in Europe, a child can have 3 biological parents through science, but that is reserved for rare medical conditions where a 3rd DNA source is required to complete certain gene sequences.

            So by your criteria, all couples, regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation fit within your tests and is not “perversion”.

            You do know homosexuality is recorded in 3,500 species, 26% of which mate for life, another 14% can change gender at will.

            You also know homophobia exists in only one species on Earth, and comes from personal prejudice and blamed on a book written 2000 years ago by man… But human homosexuality has been discovered to be over 40,000 years in existence with the recovery of a same sex couple buried in the spooning position in Egypt, the oldest hand fasting stone for a same sex marriage in the Mediterranean is in Greece dating 6700 years ago. The oldest same sex marriage hand fast in the world is over 20k years old by Druids/Pagans in the UK.

            See, this has been around long before the Hebrew nation was even thought of, it occurs in nature.

            If you want to go by Bible, Animals have no free will and must behave exactly as the Biblical “God” created them.. Since there are hundreds of species which have life long homosexual relationships and other species which can change gender at will (transgender), then they must be made by design of “God” to be such because they lack free will..

            That means any prejudice against Same Sex couples isn’t God.. It is personal dislike/bigotry or being homophobic because one attempts to hide their own same sex attractions through attacking people openly gay (about 86% of homophobic people in Harvard testing of 2500 anti gay outspoken homophobic adults showed through testing that tgew were turned on by same sex porn of people who were same sex as person tested.. Men got turned on be man on man sex, showing homosexual arrousal and attraction).

            So what is your problem with LGBT people, besides just a personal ickiness feeling?

          • Dave_L

            You found a “loop hole” in my statement and twisted the meaning. I should have said “naturally produce an offspring”. You are welcome to take issue with the revised version.

  • Renee

    Those Pastors are going to be hekd accountable one day when they stand before God and He asks them why they disobeyed His Word. There will be no excuses then.

    • Emmanuel

      Depart from me, I never knew you…..Mat 7:21-23

      • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

        Won’t they be in for a huge shock on that day?

        • Emmanuel

          Very! Walking up to Him confident of their work and then to hear God say that.

          • Princess Sheilyia

            Can you imagine the blubbering about science? Even that will not save them.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            I don’t think they will be blubbering about science, because even the good science is against them. These pastors don’t even know that good science points to the Great God!

          • Princess Sheilyia

            You are right. I should have put the word science as they see it in quotations. It’s all based on interchangeable emotions and feelings and not valid science at all. Science can only confirm what God created. Science has created nothing. Man has to use resources that God made. Those that hold onto junk “science” will try to qualify it with God while pleading their case on Judgement Day. Some people just do not use common sense and I doubt it will change once God comes.

          • Emmanuel

            But, but, but God…..

          • Princess Sheilyia

            Lol!!! “But God….we have scientific feelings! Just look at Sparky and Spot!”

          • Emmanuel

            Have you seen those kids at Walmart in full tantrum mode? Yup, atheists on the floor, rolling around, crying and kicking. LOL

          • Princess Sheilyia

            Don’t forget the gnashing of teeth! The bad part is they do not have to choose that route but they cannot blame anyone else but themselves in the end.

  • The Last Trump

    God has already decided the matter regarding apostate “churches” such as these.
    Four simple words of instruction: “From… such… turn… away!” 2 Timothy 3:5.
    If you are in such a “church” get out. And soon. God is about to “settle” accounts.

    • BarkingDawg

      Do you harass women who wear nice clothes, braid their hair, or wear jewelry?

      1 Timothy 2:9

      In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

      • The Last Trump

        Truth be told, I harass no one. I read Christian articles on Christian websites and share discussions with like minded Christians.
        Unlike those who loathe Christianity and continually troll said websites demanding that everybody THERE leave THEM (!?) alone!! Too funny!

        Speaking of which, how many Christians have we “barked at” today, dog?
        Looks like at least eight so far by my count…
        Hee, hee! Good luck with your efforts to “convert” the faithful! 🙂

        “What difference does it make to your life…we just want to be left alone…”
        says the Christian website trolling stalkers who demand DAILY that all Christians give up their convictions & reject the authority of the Word of God, insisting instead that we adhere to believe as THEY do!
        Riiiight. Not bloody likely.

        • Princess Sheilyia

          Amen, Amen, AMEN!

        • StereoMan

          Quote submitted

      • Fos

        Yawn… (context)

  • Jade

    Nice! A Christian church that is centered on the teachings of Christ rather than scripture outside of the gospels that says women are 2nd class human beings, slavery is acceptable to God, genocide is commanded by God, and homosexuality is a sin.

    • Dave_L

      You cannot separate Christ from the God of the Old Testament. If you do, it is a false Christ. Only his dealing with Israel has changed.

      • Psygn

        Sure you can, this is America, freedom of religion and all that stuff.

    • Josey

      They are not a Christian church, Christian means to follow Christ and love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and strength and that includes following and obeying His words as declared in the Bible. Jesus is the eternal word of God. John 1:1-5 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

      It’s becoming easier and easier to see who belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ and who does not.

  • DNelson

    Ya gotta laugh about all the quote marks. “church” – as if only they get to define what counts as a church.

    “gay wedding” as if it was not a wedding.

    “marriage” as if they were not, in fact married.

    • Eileen Burke Miller

      Very sad…your laughing will some day turn into weeping and clentched teeth. You don’t have to believe me, the Bible, or God. Your free to make your choice and that is all it is…a choice thats always been there…no need for it to be a right.

      • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

        Right now this is a Generation who Rejects God and His Son. They hate the true Bible believing Christians. They mock God and us. But one day They stand before the Lord. Fall to their knees and say that Jesus *Yeshua* is Lord. They will not be able to look in His eyes.It is very sad and heart breaking. I have come to forgive many of these Gay/a-theist Men/Women who have been hateful to me. I even have come to love a few of them. I am Standing in the Gap for some of them in hopes they will become my brothers and sisters in Christ before they take their last breath.

        • BarkingDawg

          Your kids left the nest, hmmm?

      • StereoMan

        “…and boy oh boy is God gonna give it to you!”

        Give it a rest.

        • Tyler Mitchell

          How about finding another site genius if you don’t want to read it.

          • StereoMan

            Because it’s contrary to your own teachings.

          • Tyler Mitchell

            Satanic teachings always are genius.

          • StereoMan

            No, I mean you Christians are taught judge not and here you are on a Christian website doing what, genius? Judging.

          • Taussig

            quit whining about others posting here…its a public forum tyler

      • DNelson

        “your laughing will some day turn into weeping and clentched teeth.”

        Some day I will be weeping and clenching my teeth because I find quote marks funny?

    • Taussig

      its hilarious….the hypocrisy is sickening

  • Emmanuel

    “I’m happy to be a pastor who understands that God is love and to bless all loving relationships because that’s what God wants more for the world”
    You don’t understand. God does not bless all relationships. Jesus came to save us from sin and you, as a pastor, are approving and allowing sin. God wants holy believers. So what are you doing to Jesus’ death? making it void and meaningless.

  • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

    We Christians know that one day there will be no more tears.God will wipe them away.If God will wipe our tears away that means there will be tears in heaven . Right now I believe there are tears in Heaven…………..

    • BarkingDawg

      Wow. Talk about pretzel logic.

  • Mike M

    “Set your minds on things above (in Heaven), NOT on Earthly things……..When Christ, who is your life, APPEARS, then you will also APPEAR WITH HIM IN GLORY.” Colossians 3:2,4. We are to PROCLAIM the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is WITH US in all we do. “They” mock, ridicule, slander and hate us, just as “they” did Christ. Their motto is: If Jesus returns, kill Him again. ~~ The complete opposite is going to happen in the future. Remember: Christ is with us, even until the end of time. STAY FAITHFUL & LOYAL to Our Lord – His Reign is coming soon, & I, for one, will REIGN WITH HIM FOR ETERNITY. HALLELUJAH & MARANATHA

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Amen !

  • TheBBP

    That Pastor will come to the horrible realization someday that God is not only loving, but He is perfect, righteous AND vengeful. God does not give sin a pass.

  • Christopher Elyse Riner

    Just because there are those ” ministers” who depart from sound scripture does not mean that this is okay. And to those of you who think saying so is to make yourself feel special read the bible. God is love but he does not condone sin. Read timothy and Romans and Corinthians. It is not wrong for a christian to take a stand and sau this doesn’t line up with the scripture it doesn’t line up with the scripture period. To reject part of the scripture is to reject and all of it. Even Jesus confronted those in sin and showed God’s love and said go sin no more. When I was sinning I’m glad the scriptures were preached to convict me. There and also is a difference by the way between love and patting someone on the back and saying it’s okay God’s love do what feels right to you. That’s what got Israel in trouble in judges.

  • webshade

    They wanted a redefinition of marriage, So, their re-defining God’s Love now, as if it’s a free for all no matter the sin?
    They deny God’s Holiness and Justice! He will judge sin and those who practice it!

  • tigersfan61

    And the abomination continues…

    • BarkingDawg

      And how does this effect you?

      • tigersfan61

        Because it affects the nation that I live in…where my children and my grandson live…a nation that has now codified homosexuality as being “right” or “normal” when that directly contradicts the Word of Almighty God and will result in His judgment against this iniquity…meaning that this nation may have already passed the point of no return…

        • Ken Campbell

          I assume you would reject your grandson if he is gay. Nothing says love like a good dose of god’s wrath

          • tigersfan61

            You DO know what happens when you assume things? I don’t reject homosexuals…I realize that the concept of disagreeing peaceably is foreign to most but, where I disagree with homosexuality, I do not reject the person because Jesus died for them as well as dying for me…and He can provide life changing power to those who will repent…

          • Ken Campbell

            Saying that a person needs to change something that is part of them is saying that it is not acceptable,

            However I do agree that disagreeing peaceably is a right. After all, I peaceably disagree with Christianity and other theist beliefs. However I do not target Christians. I will simply share my opinion when the opportunity presents itself

          • tigersfan61

            The change spoken of is a heart change that ALL of us must face, not just the homosexual…I faced the same question: “What will you do with Jesus is called the Christ?” This is the question for all time for all people…Our behavior, whether it be homosexuality or lying or adultery is not acceptable to HIM! Therefore there must be change….not because of me but because of Jesus…and if anyone tells you differently about Him, they are leading you down the primrose path…

            I do not target anyone either and only present this view when applicable…It certainly seems like the LGBT community is targeting anyone who is getting in their way to reach the demands that they want…

          • Ken Campbell

            There is nothing in that belief that does not say judgement and oppression. The reason that the Christians are protesting is that they are finally experiencing push back and they are finally discovering that their beliefs are not the law of the land. There are still places on Earth where religious beliefs do form the law of the land (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Uganda), and this may become the destination for those who want religion to form the basis of government

          • tigersfan61

            Boy…I am so sorry that you seem to feel judged and oppressed…You know…Jesus said in John 8:31-36 that we are slaves to sin, but if we will believe in Him and abide in His Word then we will know the truth and the truth will set you free…as it is the Son who will set you free…We are either a slave to sin which brings nothing but ruin, death and destruction, OR a slave to God which brings redemption and LIFE…life eternal and MORE abundant…Praying for you…

          • Ken Campbell

            Actually I don’t feel judged but I know I am being judged by the Christians I meet. They have it in their mind that I am somehow ‘lost’ and that they must save me. Many of my Christian friends tell me that they are praying for me. I generally respond by thanking them as I know they are truly acting in accordance to their beliefs. The oppression is something that is more worrisome and is related to the belief held by some of the worst examples of humanity, that they can put their beliefs onto me through law and power. I am seeing these people in some of the Christian comments in this string and in other forums.

            So do please pray for me as I know you do it in good faith. However, suggest for a moment that you can control me by denying me the rights of any citizen, and you will become the enemy

          • Melancholy Man

            And by constantly “targeting” Christian website forums you ensure for yourself ample opportunities to share your opinion. But alas I suppose every forum needs its troll…..to keep things honest.

          • Ken Campbell

            The interesting part about trolling (whatever website) is that it forces the members to be honest. As long as a person visiting the website is being polite and productive, it is part of the conversation….and keeps things honest

        • BarkingDawg

          Quick, Henny Penny, find Turkey Lurkey.

  • MaryWaterton

    Brothers & Sisters, we don’t have to let Satan and his children win. This was merely a battle, not the war. “Resist the Devil and he will flee.” (James 4:7)

    Only 34 states are required to open an Article 5 Constitutional Convention. That many states voluntarily wrote the definition of marriage into their state constitutions. From there only 4 more states are needed to ratify. No involvement by Washington is allowed in this method. State governors have no veto. It’s strictly a majority vote in both houses of the legislatures of each state AND republicans hold a majority of states at this time. It can be done.

    • BarkingDawg

      No. It won’t be done.

      Look at what happened when Indiana tried to pass an anti-gay law.

      It’s over Johnny.

  • Princess Sheilyia

    A Church is part of the body of Christ and therefore His Words are more important than the foolish ways of flesh-chasing man. If you are not respecting God’s Word, you are not part of His church. Limbs that go bad get chopped off. This is a perverted social club that needs to repent and have anti-nausea meds handy. The same-sex cannot “marry” with God’s blessing. God does not bless sin. God will not bless murder, prostitution, abortion, lying, beastiality, group “marriages”, fornication, adultery, greed, or any sin. This is a joke. God WILL have the last word.

    • Taussig

      your posts are another good reason for anti nausea meds

      • Princess Sheilyia

        You don’t have to read them or respond. Quit your whining! This is a public forum!

  • The Lone Ranger

    1 Timothy 5:22
    Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure. What most homosexuals and the unregenerate do not understand and they never will; because they will not accept God, and his word as authority. They also will never understand that it does not make any difference what they or anybody else accepts as truth. It will not effect God’s sovereignty in the least bit; if you know something is sin and warn them not, if you don’t open your mouth you are a partaker of that sin.
    Ezekiel 33:6
    “But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand.” We are ambassadors, of Christ watchmen for Christ the only way for that to happen is to have Christ dwell in you; there is your proof that’s all you need the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, it is love for mankind and the love of God that makes us go the extra mile. Every man must be born again for himself I can’t prove Christ is risen from the dead other than you believe in the sovereignty of God. All you have to do is believe it’s that simple you’ll have proof, God made it that simple. I warn you if you reject the only way that God has provided mankind to escape his wrath. Jesus Christ and him crucified for the sins of the world and if you refuse to come to the knowledge of God, the proof; of the New Covenant New Testament. He has in his sovereignty given every man a choice if you neglect so great a salvation Revelation 14:11
    The smoke of your torment will ascend up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night”. Doesn’t matter where you believe it or not: I tell you the truth I am a witness of the resurrection of Christ and God the father is my witness. Numbers 23:19″ God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the Son of man, that he should repent; hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
    Revelation 2:7
    “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”

  • Martin Fisher

    Pronouncing a blessing on a homosexual union, by its nature an abomination before God, is sacrilege, and to do so in the name of Christ is blasphemy.
    Repent, God’s judgement is near. To believe these lies is a trial against the very mercy of God to delay his wrath. These are perilous times, and these actions by apostate ministers careless of such blasphemy demonstrates these are signs of the times.

    • Ken Campbell

      So what do you expect to happen? If it doesn’t happen, what will it mean?

    • Martin Fisher

      It is true that in the last days many would scornfully say, where is the promise of his coming? All things continue just as we desire.
      God however is not mocked. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, last time by flood, and next by fire.

  • Willem Toerien

    I don’t see why Christians are complaining…

    Law: A man is not to lie with another man as with a woman.
    Law: Do not eat unclean animals.
    Law: Remember to set the seventh day apart
    Law: Do not commit adultery (incl. fornication)
    Law: A woman is not wear clothes that pertains to a man and a man is not to wear clothes that pertains to a woman.
    Law: The keeping of the God’s holy days.
    Law: Do not wear mixed fibers.
    Law: Do not change the law, and reject anyone that speaks against it.

    1. Jesus is the end of the law.
    2. Jesus fulfilled the law (means we don’t have to keep it.)
    3. We are no longer under the law, but under grace.
    4. We are not saved by keeping the law, we’re saved by grace.
    5. The law is only a school master that leads you to Christ. After that, you are no longer under the school master.
    6. Christ freed us from the bondage of the law.
    7. We’re in a new covenant, the old covenant is abolished.
    8. Trying to keep the law is self-righteous.
    9. The law is not of faith.
    10. The law was only for the Jews.
    11. Jesus said, we now only have to love God and love our neighbors.
    12. All those who believe on Jesus will not be lost.
    13. The law was never given before Moses.
    14. The law was nailed to the cross.
    15. After Jesus died on the cross, He said it is finished. We no longer have to keep the law.
    16. The law is now only for those who do not believe in Jesus.
    17. Keeping the law is legalistic.
    18. No one can keep the law perfectly.
    19. We are not to judge one another, only God can judge us. Don’t be a stumbling block.
    20. By keeping the law instead of trusting in Christ, we are cursed.
    21. We do not keep to the letter anymore, but to the Spirit.

    These are just 21 points Christians give to state why the law is no more. So to say homosexuality is unlawful is quite hypocritical.

  • http://www.smbelow.com Steven

    //******* Texas ‘Church’ Hosts Mass ‘Gay Wedding’ *******//

    No…no…! An auditorium in Texas hosts mass ‘gay wedding’.

    • Ken Campbell

      I thought the church was ‘wherever people meet in Jesus name’

      • http://www.smbelow.com Steven


        • Ken Campbell

          I know….Its all so confusing. I’ll go with the ‘live and let live’ position and assume that the chips will fall where they may

  • ter ber

    Hosea 8:7
    They sow the Wind, and Reap the Whirlwind. The Stalk has No Bud; it shall never produce Meal (seed). If it should produce, strangers would swallow it up.

    • Ken Campbell

      Isn’t this a verse about idolatry? Are you making a comment about Christian Idolatry? If so, I am confused how this relates

      • ter ber

        It relates on so many levels. Originally declared to Israel in her rebellion and idolatry. It declares Man going his own way in rebellion to The Holy Creator of the Universe is folly.
        We “sow” we do our own thing, and will reap the whirlwind which is chaos. We are declaring to God we know better than your Original Covenant with Adam and Eve for only 1man and 1 woman, and to be fruitful and multiply. In this case it’s a wonderful analogy for same sex, you have the stalk, but cannot reproduce the bud, unless you borrow from God’s creation. And eventually man in his rebellion will be swallowed up.
        Man thinks he is right in his own mind, and our true Idols are us.

        • Ken Campbell

          Interesting analysis. Another analysis may be that God did not want us idolizing a bunch of words written by man. The Bible is also a piece of idolatry.

          • ter ber

            Shame on you Ken. Calling God’s Holy Word idolatry.
            John 1:1-5. In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. / just like you Ken. You cannot comprehend it. But He is a merciful Creator. And if you humble yourself and call out to Him he will hear you. And if He knows your sincere, He will answer you.

          • Ken Campbell

            Or perhaps that was all a sham to trick mankind into thinking we had the right to ‘know God’s word’. Perhaps this is a sign of our own arrogance and the only ones destined for heaven are the cynics

          • ter ber

            Oh yes. satan the ultimate trickster. And you don’t even know that. My arrogance? And you guys are calling it gay PRIDE! Oh that’s rich.

          • Ken Campbell

            I believe that people should be proud of who they are. I do however, believe that it is arrogance to push a belief onto others. I believe it is arrogant to say that others must accept the consequences of a belief.
            As to the Bible….perhaps you are right. Perhaps it was written by Satan. After all, as God’s advocate, Satan would be good with words. God, on the other hand, is illiterate (according to the Bible)

  • CowsomeLoneboy

    It’s all very interesting that this “article” appears at a website called “Christian” News.

  • Mr Dave

    This is so sick!

  • TheSotSays

    Hey, way to go, a mass trailer trash wedding in Houston.

  • LadyGreenEyes

    I hope any true Christians who are members of that church have had their eyes opened, and withdraw their time and support.

  • SoundMind

    I imagine there are lots of anti-Christian churches. The pastor’s name Trash is appropriate LOL. It’s very misleading to encourage people to think God will bless sodomy relationships when, in fact, they will be damned if they don’t repent.

  • Christian

    Praise God! The biggest thing is that TX is standing behind their clerks and allowing them to not issue the licenses based on religious grounds!!!! Now as long as the Supreme Court doesn’t try and take that away like they are HB2 we are good. I like to focus on the positive;-)