Portland Investigating Inaction of Officer Against Man Who Attacked ‘Scum’ Christians with Cleanser

Comet ShakerPORTLAND, Ore. — Officials in Portland, Oregon are investigating a police officer who failed to take action against a man who attacked six Christians with a cleansing agent earlier this month while pronouncing them all “scum.”

As previously reported, the incident took place on August 12 outside of the Portland Planned Parenthood facility as over 20 Christians participated in a pro-life outreach that was a part of the Biblical Church Evangelism Conference hosted by Beaverton Grace Bible Church and organized by its pastor, Chuck O’Neal.

As they stood on the public sidewalk to proclaim the word of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ through preaching and the holding of signs, a man who is believed to have brought a woman to the facility began yelling at the Christians and then blanketed half of dozen of them with scouring powder.

“Somewhere he got ahold of a very large canister of Comet and then he came around the building and went to one of our ladies and pronounced her ‘scum’ and doused her with this can of Comet head to toe,” O’Neal told Christian News Network. “He continued down the line … and he said, ‘And you, and you, and you ,’ pronouncing them all scum and shaking out Comet on each one.”

When O’Neal was told by other participants what was taking place, he went to talk to the man, but was likewise blanketed with scouring powder.

“I approached the man, and he proceeded to douse me with the Comet as well, getting it in my eyes and on my clothes,” he recalled. “I was warning him that this was assault … and calling upon him to stop and to repent and turn to Christ.”

A police patrol vehicle was parked nearby as the incident took place, and former Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff Tony Miano began calling to the officer to arrest the man. However, Miano and O’Neal state that the officer, Gene Gillock, rather protected the man shaking the cleanser on the Christians.

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“As I’m shouting to him, ‘We want this man arrested,’ he’s telling us to stay back and not to disrupt what he’s doing, while he’s letting the assailant [be] who just assaulted six Christians with a white powder,” Miano explained. “He’s treating the guy who assaulted six of our friends as if they had been doing something wrong.”

The evangelists state that instead of handcuffing the man, Gillock pulled up slowly and told the man to keep walking down the street. Moments later, he had the man sit in the back of his car as they talked. The officer then drove away with the passenger door still open as the man sat inside.

Miano said that Gillock never checked on the condition of the Christians.

“There were several people doused in this caustic cleanser, people complaining about their eyes burning, and he didn’t stop to see if anyone needed aid,” he stated. “He did nothing to check on the condition of the victims, but he did everything to accommodate the man who viciously, angrily assaulted six Christians peacefully exercising their right to free speech and exercising their deeply held religious beliefs.”

“The officer had no idea whether anyone had received a full douse to the face, eyes, mouth,” O’Neal agreed. “He seemed to be more concerned about the safety of the perpetrator than the safety and care of the victims.”

O’Neal and Miano said that they don’t believe the man was taken to jail but rather escorted home. They called 911 to request that police return and take a criminal complaint.

Now, O’Neal says that the City of Portland is investigating how Gillock handled the matter. He told Christian News Network that he recently received a call from an investigator who stated that the city had received a number of complaints from those who had learned of the situation.

“The investigator’s concerns centered around the fact the officer was slow to react, that the officer had not utilized the tools at hand … to call the perpetrator to cease his attack, to communicate even with just the sirens that there was police presence there and it would be wise to cease his assault,” O’Neal stated.

“The investigator seemed to agree that this was an infraction of several police policies [and] that he would be further investigating, seeking to interview the other witnesses and victims of the assault,” he said.

While a friend of Gillock’s, who identifies simply as Zach, asserts that the Christians were being “antagonistic” outside of the facility, O’Neal says that the video footage (posted below) shows otherwise—that they were preaching the word of God and calling men and women to repentance and faith in Christ.

“I must address those that are graciously, or not so graciously, claiming that it is un-gracious and ineffective to confront people in their sin and call them to repentance and faith in Christ,” O’Neal wrote online following the original Christian News Network report. “Start asking: ‘What did Jesus do?’ Then read your Bible and you’ll find that He confronted lost sinners about their sins and called them to repentance and faith.”

He said that two babies had been rescued from abortion that day because of the Christians who reached out to them in love and gave them “blessing bags” for the ride home.

O’Neal further notes that he does not wish any harm to Gillock—only that errors will be recognized and that matters will be handled properly in the future as the Portland Police Department has otherwise been supportive of the free speech rights of Christians.

“I don’t want Officer Gillock disciplined in any way that harms or ends his career,” he said, “but I want him to see how grievously he has erred and to take corrective action both personally and in the police department, to say, ‘This was mishandled.'”


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  • http://www.jesusgospelchurch.com/ Kirk W. Fraser

    Any background? Was he or family Muslim, or member of a California Gang prior to moving to Oregon?

    • Nanette Lagasse Gaither

      Well, his dad has a strong Irish accent. I saw him talking on CNN and FOX News. This kid’s website has a lot of stuff on it from the IRA (Irish Republican Army), the revolutionary terrorist group in Northern Ireland. Not heard anything about his mom other than she was outside somewhere crying. It doesn’t sound as if he came from a Muslim background. He did plan this ahead of time and the online conversation he had the night before was definitely warning about this shooting.

  • SeriousSpy

    Hey, editors. You seem to have a problem, the comments are getting mixed in with an article that is a month old, it’s a little confusing.

    • bowie1

      Yes, I sent them a message via the Contact Us option.

  • bowie1

    Christian News seems to have gotten the comments section reversed from another article.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      I think this one is an older shooting. Not the one that just happened.

  • Marc Thomson

    We need to calm down. We need to wait for confirmation. Very little is known yet, and rumor is filling the news vacuum. Pray for victims and their families.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Prayer is the best thing we can do at this time. I agree.

  • Suzanna Brown

    All the comments are mixed up from other articles, please straighten it out.

    • ouflak

      What a mess!

  • GibbyD

    So now the shooter is in Hell and he is being consumed in a burning fire that will never stop burning him. His suffering will last forever and ever. The Christians that he murdered have begun an eternity in Glory with The Saviour, The LORD Jesus Christ. The joy an bliss and Love of that place is beyond anything that can be described or understood by human minds . The answer for those yet on this Earth is still , ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ” ( Acts 20:21)KJB.

    • Monica Henriksen

      …God would not be a loving God if he let people, even Satan him self, burn forever. The iternal flame means that these will burn until theres nothing left, and then all evil will be gone.

      • A. Mathias

        I don’t normally reply to comments but I just had to tell you, God I most certainly a loving God her never ‘sends’ anybody to hell they choose willing whether they know it or not, buy choosing evil and deciding not to follow Jesus they are sealing their our fate. The bible is very clear about ‘where the flame is not quenched and the worm dieth not’ Mark Ch 9:44 also see, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 25:41
        Hell was designed for Lucifer and his angles aka demons, ,not for any if us ,Ever, but by not following Him we choose,
        there is no gray, I can say this with absolute truth because of the love of Jesus in my heart, and I say this to the nay Sayers, I would rather live my life according to Gods will and be wrong(u know your not once u accept because the He opens your eyes) than the alternative of spending and eternity in Hell because I choose the evils and pleasures of this world. It wouldn’t be much of a punishment for evil if you just burnt up and were gone.

        • Lisa

          I disagree with your statement that God doesn’t send anyone to hell.
          Revelation 20:15
          And if anyones’s name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown in the lake of fire.

          • justsaying

            Lisa, I think the point A. Mathias was making was that God does not “SEND” anyone to hell. They go by their own choices. If their name was not written in the book of life, it is because of their own choices in this life.

          • Lisa

            And the point I’m making is that He does. Their choice is disobedience and He is he one that punishes disobedience.

          • afchief

            A person chooses life or death. God does not interfere with our free will. If a person goes to hell, it is by their choice, not Gods. 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          You got it right.I agree with what you have said.

      • Dave_L

        No He would not be loving, and God hates sin. But he would be Just to have sinners burn forever in Hell. That is why He created it no doubt.

      • GibbyD

        God is Love but He is also HOLY ! God is not a liar. Hell and The Lake of Fire are real and forever. Jesus warned about the place called Hell. Eternally created beings do not cease to exist. They will spend forever in one place or the other. It would be best for all to believe on The LORD Jesus Christ to be saved. ( Acts 16:31; 1st John 5:13)KJB. It is too late for the shooter who will now spend forever tormented in Hell.

      • Andrew Richardson

        God sent his son to earth to redeem mankind and save them from hell. That is love. He gave us an out. It is our freewill that rejects that out. If he forced salvation on us then it wouldnt be love.

    • RogerSmith

      Apparently he was a Muslim. He had links to Jihadist pictures on his MySpace page. How does that make you feel? Angry?

      • Dave_L

        “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;” (Matthew 5:44)

        • GibbyD

          In the meantime The LORD would also have us buy a couple guns to provide for and protect our persons and our families. —

          “And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough” ( Luke 22:35-38)KJB. a 22 and 38 would do fine.

          • Lisa

            If you live by the sword-you will die by the sword. Did the apostles defend their lives? Ya I know Paul took his case to Rome-but did he physically defend himself? Don’t you think the reason he was sent to Rome was to share the good news before the courts?

          • GibbyD

            It is only in the cause of presenting the Gospel and preaching Christ that one would chose not to defend themselves if so led. Jesus did not mean that we should not protect our lives and families from crooks , thieves, wild animals and enemies of our nation and people.

          • Lisa

            Is that what He called Christians to do?

          • GibbyD

            “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” ( 1st Timothy 5:8)KJB.

            A man provides, not only food and shelter for his family, but also protection from those that would do them harm. A man loves his wife as Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it . If a man does not provide needed protection for his family , he is worse than an infidel. The LORD protects His bride the Church and a man protects his wife and family. Yes , and as you said , even using the court system and laws available with your earthy citizenship and those rights when they are violated by unbelievers . Paul was our model for this .
            We are called to preach and or use the gifts God has given us . We are also called to be persecuted . We are not to seek that but we are promised that if we lived Godly in Christ Jesus , that we would suffer persecution.
            When and while presenting the Gospel we must be prepared to die while we lovingly present God’s truth . At those moments we can and probably should be ready to lay down our lives. That is not the case though when you are home and or wherever you are when providing for your own.

          • Lisa

            So 1Timothy 5:8 is your verse telling you it’s ok to defend yourself? That’s a little odd to me since they are talking about widows- And providing for widows.
            I think you are out of context on the verse.

            You are also wrong that God protects His bride and church. He doesn’t protect for everything-He allows testing me and tribulations in your life to test you and to refine you.

            The whole purpose for Paul using his right was to preach the gospel before rulers and kings-he didn’t do it for his rights. That goes against scripture-we have no rights as a bondservant of God.

            So you can’t be ready to lay down your life and share the gospel at home? When you’re at home it’s just survival mode and the gospel doesn’t matter?

          • GibbyD

            I Timothy 5:8 and it’s context is about widow being taken care of by family before the Church assembly would take of them in to “the number” of those that are qualified to be taken care of by the church assembly members. There were some widows who had no blood family to take care of them and if those widows were “widows indeed” without the help of family and if those widows met other qualifications, then the church filled that need. The portion reveals that family are the first to take to that responsibility for relatives that are widows and if they don’t then they are worse than infidels and or unbelievers. The general over-all principal and truth is stated and it includes more than just widows that are related to you but also ALL that closely related and kin to your household . The Bible even mentions nephews as part of those men that should take responsibility. ” But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house” . Provision has always meant more than just providing food and shelter for your wife, children and near relatives. It also includes protection from harm from physical attacks and harm. If you do not see and understand that then you are worse than an unbeliever. God is able to protect his children so that that circumstance may not occur but any man of God must be willing to do what he is enabled to do to protect those God has placed under his care . It may never happen but lethal force must be available to a Christian man , if need be, in the course of protecting others , if no other options are possible.

            You are wrong to suggest that God does not protect His Bride. Christ is our example in relationship to how a man provides and protects his wife and family. It is a perverted and evil teaching that would say a man is not permitted to protect his family from physical harm. I would go so far as to say that it is a doctrine of a devil .

            “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” ( 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10)KJB

            The Scripture does not say ” as he was so are we in this world ” But RATHER , “Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS, so are we in this world.” ( 1st John 4:17)KJB.

            “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1st John 3:2)KJB

            You said, “The whole purpose for Paul using his right was to preach the gospel before rulers and kings-he didn’t do it for his rights.” —
            — And why else would one follow the example of Paul and announce his Roman ,and or in our case American citizenship and rights? We use those rights, not as Laodecions, but with the purpose to remain free and at liberty to serve God as He directs.

            You said , “So you can’t be ready to lay down your life and share the gospel at home? When you’re at home it’s just survival mode and the gospel doesn’t matter?” —

            —- When you are a dad , husband , law officer or soldier , you have a responsibility to protect those under your care and in your commission to defend and protect. You must be willing to give your life , not only in the cause of Christ and the Gospel but also in the cause and effort protecting others from evil men and seducers and any who would attempt to do physical and or other harm to others where you can do something to prevent it .
            Romans 13 gives addition reasons why lethal force is justified.
            The Lord Jesus also never rebuked the soldiers that came to him in faith seeking healing for another. Jesus commended the soldier’s faith and did not rebuke him and say anything about his role as a soldier.

          • Lisa

            I think you start out well explaining 1 Timothy 5:8 but then you go off on your own tangent and add what you think is right to a verse that says nothing about self defense. Where does protecting yourself allow for trust in God in all things in your life-yes even against bad things? Not sure why you added the other verses-they added nothing to your cause.

            I wonder why the armor of God that Paul talks about has the sword of the spirit and not the sword that you kill your enemies with? Our struggle is not against flesh and blood and we must be strong in the Lord and the power of His might.

          • GibbyD

            Lisa , when I preach on the street or go to places to try and reach others with the Gospel , I have never had to use violence and or force to protect myself. My mindset in those circumstances is that God does protect and that if while proclaiming the Gospel I am threatened with harm , I probably would not harm in return but trust God as I always have when heralding the Truth in crowds or one on one. The worst that has ever happened to me because of preaching is being spit upon or pennies thrown at me. I say this because I want you to understand that I do know what you are saying and what the Scriptures say concerning praying for and loving your enemies and not being a brawler with them. My trust in Christ does give me a peace and calm about threats and I have never had to defend myself because so far in the 34 or more years I have been born again , God has always kept me alive through some risky situations. I will not limit myself though not to be willing and able to defend the lives and safety of others. I hope that never happens that I have to use force of some kind but I will not legalistically restrict what is my option in situations that might be called for to provide safety for loved ones and whoever.

            The other Scriptures that I posted reveal that we are now the sons of God and that as such we should emulate as Christ is now.

          • Lisa

            Aren’t you then coming up with plan b in case God allows something bad to happen to you and then you’re not trusting in God?

          • afchief

            Would you let your loved ones be killed and do nothing? God has given us wisdom and discernment. It is time we use it.

          • Lisa

            I did not know that when God says you shall not kill-in small print after He also says except to defend yourself or your loved one. Or does that come under they did what was right in their own eyes?

            I shall lift up my eyes to the mountains, from where shall my help come from, my help comes from the Lord.

          • afchief

            Ecclesiastes 3:1-8New American Standard Bible (NASB)

            A Time for Everything

            3 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every [a]event under heaven—

            2 A time to give birth and a time to die;

            A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

            3 A time to kill and a time to heal;

            A time to tear down and a time to build up.

            4 A time to weep and a time to laugh;

            A time to mourn and a time to dance.

            5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;

            A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.

            6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost;

            A time to keep and a time to throw away.

            7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;

            A time to be silent and a time to speak.

            8 A time to love and a time to hate;

            A time for war and a time for peace.

          • Lisa

            So you are saying there is a time to kill as your reply?
            So then after you kill someone its a time to heal for you-because the dead person isn’t gonna heal. Not sure how this says it’s ok to defend yourself.

          • wamo53

            This not something that afchief is saying. He is saying that this is what God says. The point is that when something unfortunate has occurred that requires one to kill, one focusses on the duty at hand and after that he can go though the healing of grieving for the loss that forced him to kill for protection and self preservation. That way he is not being driven to murder out of vengeance, which of course is wrong because vengeance belongs to the Lord.

          • Lisa

            I don’t believe God is saying killing is ok with that verse.

            Every time has their opposite here. The opposite of a time to kill us a time to heal? It suggests to me that a time to kill is not bodily. I think a time to kill is a bit like the refiners fire. God kills the impurity and then heals you afterward.

            Something evil happening to you requires you to look to God for deliverance and is not up to you to kill anyone. Christians are not killers.

            But you are being driven to murder for self preservation? That’s ok? And at this point it is murder you are seeking because you are pre planning this. If someone tries to physically hurt you or your family you will murder them.

          • wamo53

            Nobody is saying that God is saying that it is okay to kill, but it sometimes is simply necessary. God has killed people for the sake of the gospel (Ananias and Sapphira were killed and more believers came to the LORD). I mentioned already, the LORD only said, “Blessed are the meek” not “Blessed are the door-mats”.

            Also, nobody said anything about Christians going around murdering people. We are speaking about Christians genuinely defending themselves, their loved ones and even you, from those who are going around murdering people. Don’t get me wrong, there is bound to come a point where we are to simply trust in the LORD. Nobody is denying that, but when a madman, bent on murder is attacking you and you have the where-with-all to eliminate the danger you would be just as mad to think that he has any interest in hearing, let alone receiving the gospel message.

            On the same level that you think we should just abandon any defense because we need to be trusting that God will take care of us, perhaps it displays a greater faith that if God doesn’t want the madman to die He will preserve the lunatic and ensure that he is only wounded. Who says that we are obligated to be murdered?

            I find it interesting that God compares our walk of faith to using the armour and weapons like a soldier so that we can stand and be bold and live to tell the story.

            Finally, you certainly have the right to believe that you are to exercise your faith in a certain manner, but unless you see indisputable Biblical proof that another believer is in error it is very difficult to justify calling a brother a murderer or a hypocrite. Perhaps you might consider praying for enlightenment and understanding from the Holy Ghost beforehand. It is just a thought.

          • afchief

            As a Christian, if someone is trying to break in my home and hurt my family I would not think twice about shooting someone. Remember, the Bible also tells us that Jesus said: A man who does not own a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

            Nowhere do I see the Bible saying that we should not protect ourselves from evil.

          • Lisa

            So now you have a time to kill and Luke 22:36 that says it’s ok to shoot people?

            If God is the one who is to avenge us-why do you think it’s ok to circumvent that by shooting someone first?

            The only thing I can think of as a defense is putting on the whole armor of God, which does not call for grabbing a gun and shooting anyone but relying on God.

            Isn’t that what faith is about anyway chief? We rely upon God and not our understanding of things? Because many times we don’t understand God’s reasons and actions in our lives at first-but we must trust that He is a faithful Creator in doing what’s right for us.

            To my knowledge none of his disciples defended themselves physically from anyone. Paul tells how he was taken and beaten but did he first try to physically defend himself? He did rely upon his Roman citizenship to be taken to Rome so that he could share the gospel with kings but he didn’t physically defend. Stephen didn’t physically defend himself either and was killed as well. Jesus didn’t physically defend himself and he even restored one mans ear when he was physically defended.

          • afchief

            Jesus has given us wisdom and discernment of when to use force. The very blanket of freedom you enjoy today is because of millions of Christians giving their life so you can type on your computer. America was not started by atheists. It was started by Christians who fought the British because of religious oppression.

            Also, Jesus said that the attorneys perverted the Law and made it into something that no one could live by, he cursed them for it, he drove the Money Changers with a bit more than harsh language and the tax collectors he called extortionists. Obviously he a problem with these guys so why did he even speak out??? So I guess turning over the money changers tables and driving them out with a whip was not resisting evil???? And just why did he tell his followers to sell their cloaks and by swords if they didn’t have one???

            Flash back to ancient Isreal and you find the People of Israel stoning the tax collector to death and revolting against the House of Judah, the then current ruling house. I think it was Jeramiah that said that Israel was Justified because Judah had created an abomination. And I guess Joshua was not God’s man because he destroyed cities.

            Of course you might say that that was old Law but you really need to read Jesus’ words as stated in Matthew 5 if you want to know what Jesus said about conforming to the Law and the Prophets.

          • Lisa

            You are confusing American patriotism with Christainity.

          • afchief

            Was it Christians who went to war to form our country?

          • Lisa

            Idk if they were all Christians-seems the leaders were masons and not Christians, because masons aren’t Christians. I suppose some Christians could have fought in the wars.

          • afchief

            No they were Christians. I call Christians like you hypocrites. The very blanket of freedom you enjoy today was provided by Christians who gave their lives so you can be free. Open your eyes.

          • Lisa

            Why exactly am I a hypocrite? I don’t understand why you say that.

          • afchief

            Do you live in America? Are you condemning Christians who gave their life for you so you can live in a free country? Are you calling them murderers? Hypocrites?

          • Lisa

            Personally I don’t think Christians should go around killing people. You can believe what you want to believe here but no I don’t think everyone who has ever fought in American wars were strictly Christians. And I don’t believe America was founded by Christians and is a Christian nation. That’s kind of a silly premise to me. Christianity is not Judaism where we are God’s chosen people. We are saved by grace through faith.

            I trust God more than any army anyway. Some trust in horses, some trust in chariots by I will trust in the Lord my God!!

          • afchief

            We were a Christian nation. We were founded by Christians. Over 30% of the founders were ministers. Most were Christian men. They came here to practice Christianity out from under the control of the King of England.

            One Nation Under God”, and all that stuff.

            The Declaration of Independence specifically cites that our rights come from God. The Founders were very particular on that point, because it assured that any government was subject to the authority of God.

            Again, open your eyes and stop being a hypocrite.

          • Lisa

            I believe you’re the one in the wrong.
            Jesus says His kingdom was not of this world. If it were of this world His servants would be fighting so that He would not be handed over to the Jews-as it is His kingdom is not of this world.
            Then in revelation the loud voices in heaven said the kingdom of the world had become the kingdom of the Lord and of His Christ. That’s after the 7th angel sounded.

            So there is really no Christian nation in this world. That’s not what the gospel is about. The gospel is about telling people about the Good News. Not about kingdoms in this world. It’s about Jesus-God’s Son-being sent by God into the world so that whomever believes in Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life. And as Christians instead of fighting and killing people we are commanded to tell people the good news. This other stuff is foolishness next to that!

          • afchief

            Again, you are a hypocrite. The very blanket of freedom you enjoy today was provided for you by millions of Christians who died for you so you type your rhetoric.

            If you do not like Christians keeping you free from harm than go live in North Korea and see how much you miss your freedom.

            Yes, you are being a hypocrite!!!!

          • knockingbird

            Lisa,

            The Word says, “You shall not murder.” When people claim that it says, “you shall not kill,” they are following false teachings. Look it up in Hebrew to understand the truth.

            We are to defend the weak and protect the poor. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. The best defenders of the innocent are Christians. We have the power through Yeshua to stop evil. If we lose our life, we will forever be with Him in the kingdom.

          • Lisa

            It was an honest mistake-I did think it was do not kill but you are right it is do not murder.

            Where does the Bible say to defend the weak and protect the poor?

            Sorry when someone says yeshua and not Jesus it really grates on my nerves…
            How do we stop evil through Jesus?

          • knockingbird

            Lisa,

            Just a couple of verses about defending the weak and protect
            the poor, Psalms 83:3 and Isaiah 1:17.

            The way you want to say the Lord’s name is of no issue
            because we shall learn the Word in our own language. However, just so you can understand, His actual name is Yeshua. It mean’s “God Saves” or “Salvation” in Hebrew. This is important to know because Jesus and the disciples are Jewish and they called Him “Salvation” while he was in the flesh. The letter “J” comes
            from the Latin language when the Romans decided to say his name in Latin instead of His actual Hebrew name Yeshua. There is no “J” or “JA” sound in Hebrew, just “Ya” or “Yah”. When you learn how Hebrew language works, you will learn that our Father’s name YHWH (Yahweh) and Yeshua are interconnected which is important to understand the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is restoring the truth and His name will be restored.

            We stop evil through Yeshua (Jesus) because we have no fear
            of death. Evil fears us because we know our salvation. God will give us the strength to fight or to speak with full discernment to know what which is needed for
            each situation.

          • Lisa

            Psalms 83:3? Are you sure? There doesn’t seem to be anything about defending the weak or protecting the poor in that. I don’t see anything about protecting the poor.

            I agree with you about Yahweh but not the other. Jesus is my savior’s name.

            Evil does not fear us at all.
            1 Peter 5:8
            Be of sober spirit-be on the alert. Your adversary the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

          • wamo53

            Yes Lisa, “Jesus” is a name for our savior. It just happens to be an English transliteration of the Greek translation of the Hebrew name Yehoshua (or Yeshua as a short version). Our Lord does not suffer from either an inferiority complex or an identity crisis. He knows when His children are lovingly and respectfully calling Him or praising Him (Jer. 33: 3).

          • Lisa

            Call him by His rightful name then is all I’m saying. I don’t believe the other is His rightful name. Just like jehovah is not Yahweh’s rightful name.

          • wamo53

            I apologize Lisa. I often make the mistake of assuming that people will simply understand what I’m saying just because I understand what I meant. I must have messed something up though since I failed to clarify what I meant. Regardless, the name “Jesus” is only the English way to say the Greek translation of the Hebrew name of our LORD “Yehoshua” which means in English “Our Salvation”.

            I am sure that you realize that one can’t say that “Jesus” is the LORD’s rightful name because He has a Hebrew name and there is no “J” in the Hebrew “aleph-bet” (which is what one calls the 22 letters of the Hebrew writing system – the English version is based on the Greek writing system). Again, I am truly sorry if this throws a curve into the situation.

            Also, it isn’t “Jehovah”, it is supposed to be Yehovah, which is actually a more realistic transliteration of the Biblical Hebrew tetragrammaton “YHVH” which is actually how the LORD addressed Himself throughout scripture when He called Himself “I AM” (note that there are no
            vowels in Hebrew so since nobody can be 100% certain, it is only a transliteration, and so is Yahweh, but there actually is also no “W” in Hebrew as well). Anyway, it was only for our benefit because until He did that, He didn’t have a name because He doesn’t need a name (as I said before our LORD doesn’t suffer from either an inferiority complex or an identity crisis). Only the false gods need names so the duped followers can waste their breath calling upon their non-existent deities.

            When He instructed us to pray in His name He was speaking about the Hebrew name that Joseph (again an English transliteration) was instructed to call the Christ (the Messiah) who was incarnated as the baby boy born to Mary (also an English transliteration).

            So, if you truly are concerned about the LORD’s “rightful” name, there are a host of names to choose from. Again, I believe that you can sincerely honor our LORD by addressing Him with “Jesus” (I often do that), but when God Himself tells us His various names and invites us to do like-wise, why would you wish to restrict yourself (or anybody else from following His example)? How did you ever come to the notion that you have the authority to declare what is the “rightful” name of our LORD in the
            first place?

            What does God Himself say are some of the LORD’s names? Let’s see: God, the Light of the World, Creator, the Rock, the Word, the Truth, Wonderful, Counsellor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Saviour, Redeemer, the Angel of the LORD, Captain of the host of the LORD, the LORD of Hosts, King of kings, LORD of Lords, the LORD of Glory, the Christ (that is “the Messiah”), Emmanuel (God with us), Son of David, Son of Abraham, Son of Jesse, the Lamb of God, the Day Star, the Bright and Morning Star and let us not forget “I AM” (spelled “YHVH”).

            I pray that this helps to clear up the subject.

          • knockingbird

            Lisa, good catch! I was typing too fast, I meant to put Psalms 82:3.

            Don’t forget God wants to save the Jews too. You can call Him Jesus. The Jews have been coming to the Lord by the name of Yeshua. Knowing the Lord’s name in another language should not grate on your nerves. The name you know or the name others know should be of no irritation. Facts are on both sides. The day comes when everyone will be speaking one pure language (Hebrew) and will serve Yahweh with one accord (Zephaniah 3:9).

            You are also right about evil not fearing us. I should not have rushed to reply. The question was, “how do we stop evil through Jesus?” We are already saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us, therefore, Jesus has already won.

            Thanks for being a sister that pays attention and reads her scripture. We both made some mistakes! 🙂

            God bless.

          • Lisa

            I don’t think we can stop evil. That’s not what we are called to do. But we are called to trust in God no matter what happens to us.

            Have a good evening!

          • wamo53

            The Lord only said “Blessed are the meek” not “Blessed are the door-mats”.

      • bowie1

        If you are referring to the Oregon shooting he claims he is not religious, just spiritual and hates organized religion.

      • Terry

        The article says he had stuff about the Irish Republican Army but since that has basically become a dead issue, I, too, am guessing he went Muslim. Just looking for an outlet for violence against someone and since there were no “Brits” over here, he decided to go the Muslim route.

  • GibbyD

    Gun-free zones make students and others , sitting ducks for acts like this.

    • Dave_L

      Guns make students and others sitting ducks for acts like this….

      • GibbyD

        The only remedy for a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Those murders would have never happened if the shooter knew that other law abiding citizens and even students and faculty members were carrying guns.

        • Dave_L

          The victims could have denied Christ and not have been killed.
          They also could have denied Christ using weapons to kill the shooter and not have been killed.

          But, they were killed Just as Jesus, and as the Apostles were killed, for refusing to deny Christ. These are true followers of Christ while those who resist evil with force are not.

          • GibbyD

            (Romans 13; 1st Timothy 5:8; Luke 22:38)KJB

            If those students or whoever willingly gave their lives knowing that their salvation DID NOT depend on it , then yes they are to be commended and will be rewarded for that by God.

            If though you or anyone thinks that they had to not deny Christ in order to be and or continue to stay being a Christian , then no , that person is Not born again, they are not saved. If they were born again , their eternal salvation was not dependent on them denying and or not denying Christ to that crazed hateful unsaved gunman. ( Philippians 1:6)KJB. If you preach any other Gospel , let him be accursed. ( Galatians 1:6-9)KJB

          • Dave_L

            Peter was surly born again, but wept bitterly after denying Jesus. God would use similar to strengthen us for the next round no doubt. But I believe the true heroes are those who mirror Jesus and the Apostles, knowing they are saved regardless and yet remain true to Christ’s words.

          • GibbyD

            Peter was NOT born again until after Acts chapter 2. He did not have the indwelling Spirit of God until then. When Peter denied Christ , he was a follower and believer but was not yet born again by The Spirit of God.

            Yes , they are to be commended and they will be honored and rewarded for willingly in the face of persecution and death , remain faithful . It is even more amazing of those who do so knowing that their salvation does not depend on it , but they remain faithful even unto death . But now , ” as He is (not was) , so are we in this world”

          • Dave_L

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22–23)

            You cannot believe in Christ unless first Born Again. Notice faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. In fact, Abel, Noah, Abraham, David and all of the believers in the Old Testament were Born Again. That is why they believed.

          • GibbyD

            No, none of the Old Testament patriarchs were born again. The Holy Spirit never indwelt any of them. The Holy Spirit came upon them then but NEVER indwelt them. Where in the world do you get that OT saints were born again? You didn’t get that from the bible. No one was born again before the day of Pentecost. Jesus descended into Paradise and led the OT saints to heaven. They had been waiting in Abraham’s bosom (paradise) for the completion of their redemption. Until Christ was crucified, buried, rose and ascended to heaven the comforter could not come. John 16:7

            “Obeying from the heart that form of doctrine, The Gospel” , is what causes The New Birth. You are not born again , made a new creature in Christ unless you first have , ” repentance toward God and faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ ( Acts 20:21; Romans 6:17; 1Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17 )KJB

        • Dave_L

          This is true for the civil magistrate but off limits for Christians.

      • afchief

        Ahhh….the liberalism comes out! Gun control laws and proposals never have and never will have anything to do with crime reduction or public safety. They have always been about the subjugation of a segment of or society in general. The 2nd Amendment was in included in the Bill of Rights as a last defense against a tyrannical government like that of the 0lawless Regime. He and his minions want to subjugate as many Americans as possible. One of many ways is to disarm them. With the obvious cowardice of Congressional leadership and the apathy and ignorance of half the people the day will soon be here where every American will have to make the individual, personal decision of living on their knees to an omnipotent government, or die if need be on their feet as a free man or woman.

        • Dave_L

          But, what does Jesus say?

          • afchief

            Remember, the Bible also tells us that Jesus said: A man who does not own a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

            Nowhere do I see the Bible saying that we should not protect ourselves from evil.

            I consider myself the shepherd of my family and that is why I say:
            “Be prepared to defend those whom you love and that which you value.” If I am wrong, then I will answer to God for that on my day of judgment. During my 23 years of military service I never felt that what I was doing was inconsistent with my faith. My sworn duty was to protect this nation and its people from all enemies foreign and domestic. And yes, His will be done.

          • Dave_L

            How did you become a member of the military apart from swearing by an oath? And is that not being unequally yoked together with unbelievers?

          • afchief

            What? Yes I took an oath. It is no way being bound with unbelievers. It is more like laying ones life down so others may live.

          • Dave_L

            In the Military, you must do what unbelievers tell you to or else. Also the State, by Law is required to be unbelieving. So I ask, how do you follow the Bible and not retaliate, and love enemies, when told to kill them by the State?

          • afchief

            It’s quite obvious you have NO understanding of the Word of God and are pretending to be a Christian!!! What does laying your life down for another mean to you? What have millions of Christians through out America’s history done for you so you can type on your computer and live in freedom? How do you think America was formed? By atheists? READ YOUR BIBLE!!!!

            The Bible also tells us that Jesus said: A man who does not own a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

            The sword is an offensive weapon!

            Nowhere do I see the Bible saying that we should not protect ourselves from evil.

          • Dave_L

            Jesus died for me. It is sacrilegious to put carnal minded warriors in His ranks.

            First of all where do you find him instructing Christians to become soldiers? And secondly, how do you love your enemy while killing him?

            Paul says, “(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)” (2 Corinthians 10:4)

          • afchief

            Oh please, if all Christians believed like you we would be under Nazi rule today and/or America would have never existed.

            Understand the Word of God. God looks at the heart. When a soldier takes another mans life through war is not because of hatred. It is for his fellow man. It is for his country. It is for freedom. Murder comes from the heart. If I kill another person out of hatred that is murder.

          • Dave_L

            You lack faith in God who sets the bounds and limits of all nations. You cannot love enemies and kill them. If you kill a person it IS hatred. Plus, you lost the Vietnam war and we are still speaking English.

          • afchief

            Then get out of my country. As a 23 year military vet you have no right to be here. There very blood of Christians that was shed for us you trample on and spit on. YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!!

            Leave!!! Go live in North Korea and see how much you love freedom!!!

            Yes, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!!

          • Dave_L

            Anger? Why not Love and truth. Teach me about how you justify killing enemies when you should be loving them. How do you take the military oath when Jesus tells you not to? How do you make yourself available to an unbeliever when Paul tells us so clearly not to be unequally yoked to them. How do you defend any nation that murders babies as an industry and promotes homosexuality, persecuting those who oppose it. Let’s re-think our position, drop the sword and take the cross instead.

          • afchief

            How many times do I need to tell you that God looks at the heart? Defending one’s country is not murder. Use some common sense. If all Christians thought like you there would be no USA.

            OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

          • Dave_L

            Not loving your enemies is sin. You cannot feed and clothe and nurture your enemy while in the Military.

          • afchief

            Again, you are a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Christians who died for your freedom, you condemn and spit on. Go live in North Korea and come back whining for the freedom you have in the USA because of Christians.

            YES, YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            You were taught to believe what you believe. I rejected the same theory and instead have a Biblical world view. Jesus is the only one who died for me. I do not believe a Christian can serve in the office of the Civil Magistrate and remain a follower of Christ. Until you address this with some solid Scriptural evidence proving me wrong, I do not accept your name calling or belief.

          • afchief

            Matthew 5:13-17(NASB) “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [a]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

            14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [b]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [c]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

            What does salt and light mean to you? Christians should care about politics because, ultimately, we care about people. Government has an increasingly large influence on the lives of people, which is why we cannot ignore politics. Almost every law reflects someone’s idea of morality. Since God’s morality is ultimate and universal, society benefits from the Christian’s participation in the public square. That is, society benefits when biblical truth is reflected in law. Indeed, Christians should be involved in all aspects of society, including law, art, music, economics, science, etc and yes politics!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            It makes sense, but I do not see Jesus or the Apostles trying to merge the Kingdom of God with the Kingdoms of the world. The Gospel changes people inwardly where politics only forces the writing of laws to enforce.
            If God wanted to clean America up, he could simply appoint moral leadership, since we know he appoints all rulers, good and bad for his purposes.

            The Kingdoms of the word operate by visiting evil with evil, whereas the Kingdom of God overcomes evil with good. And Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world.

            Jesus expects us to siphon off people from the kingdoms of the world through the Gospel, giving them a far better way of doing things following his example.

          • afchief

            Where are you getting your theology from. Because it is way off. Again, you are taking scripture out of context. God does not appoint rulers. He does not over rule mans free will. That’s like saying God appointed Hitler to kill 6 million Jews. That is not the heart of God.

            We live in this world and we are to be “salt and light” to the people of this world. Do a study on what salt is used for and what it does. The same with light.

            We are to influence the world. We are not to be influenced by the world. Otherwise, you would have to leave the world.

          • Dave_L

            I believe God placed Hitler in power as with any ruler at any given time. This is only one verse but there are many more if needed. “And they shall drive thee (Nebuchadnezzar) from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.” (Daniel 4:32)

            This verse also shows that determines what rulers do;

            “The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever he will.” (Proverbs 21:1)

            Also remember how God hardened Pharaoh’s heart many times so he judge him more harshly.

            “And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.” (Exodus 4:21)

            Jesus is the Same wrathful God of the Old Testament. But He did away with the Old Testament Theocracy and removed the unbelieving Jews when the veil of the Temple tore at the Crucifixion. Today we are the same Church minus the State, only now global and play by different rules.

          • afchief

            You are quite wrong again. God does not interfere with man’s free will. Jesus is not the same wrathful God as in the old testament. You cannot compare the law to Grace. It is two different covenants. And totally opposite from one another.

            The moment Christ died a new covenant was born. The curtain in Herod’s Temple which separated the holy of holies from the people was torn asunder. From that moment forward no one stood between each person and their God. No Priest. No King.

            We have a one on one with God. That means we are born with rights from God. Then there is no such thing as a noble a king or a ruler. I am EQUAL to any man and every man before God and the law.

            All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with unalienable rights among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…..is indeed a Christian principle.

          • Dave_L

            “We are under the New Covenant.” That is what I said “Today we are the same Church minus the State, only now global and play by different rules.” I.e., New Covenant.

            How can God change? If He is perfect any change would be to imperfection. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. “For I am the Lord, I change not; Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” (Malachi 3:6)

            People do not have “free wills”. They can only choose sin and are bound by it. The only time the will can choose good is after being Born Again. And then we wrestle back and forth battling between flesh and Spirit.

            Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit; (New Birth)

            “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

            Therefore, God must give you the Holy Spirit before you can believe. He says;

            “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” (John 15:16)

            “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

          • afchief

            Bye! Your theology is out in left field somewhere and I’m wasting my time.

          • Dave_L

            You should look into what I am saying. It is exactly what the Churches taught throughout history. It is the Catholics that teach “Free Will”. And deny the Sovereignty of God over the affairs of men.

          • afchief

            What you are saying is the same thing the German Church said before Hitler took all their guns.

            OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

          • Dave_L

            If the German Church had practiced the Sermon on the Mount, the Nazis would not have gotten off the ground. You really need to think about this, because it was Luther’s and later Calvin’s doctrine of dual morality that made Hitler possible.

          • afchief

            NOPE! It’s hypocrite people like you that have NO understanding of the word of God. The same thing happened with the British, who, on April 19, 1775, issued an order to seize the arms of the colonists. Our patriot forebears stood on Lexington Green and at Concord Bridge on that eventful morning and, in essence, said the same thing that Spartan King Leonidas said to Persian King Xerxes at the Battle of Thermopylae. When told to surrender their arms, they said: MOLON LABE, meaning, “Come and take them.”

            If Christians thought you, THERE WOULD BE NO AMERICA!!!

            YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE!!!

          • Dave_L

            How does your theory and interpretation of history square with the teachings of Christ? I would really like to try to understand your position.

          • afchief

            Very easy! God looks at the heart. If I was to kill someone in cold blood, that is murder. If I was to kill someone defending others i.e. this nation, my family or the weak that is not murder. God sees the heart and knows your intentions. How do you think this country was formed? By Christians defending themselves.

          • Dave_L

            “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)

          • afchief

            Stop taking the word out of context. You are making yourself look like a religious fool.

          • Dave_L

            Show some Scripture to support what you say.

          • Dave_L

            God owns ALL nations and happened to place me here. You do not own it just because you mindlessly kill anyone they tell you to.

          • afchief

            It is quite obvious you are some wacked out liberal that has NO understanding of the Word of God. Quite obvious!!

          • Dave_L

            Neither liberal or conservative as both = carnal mindedness = sin.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Thank you for serving in the military. It is because of people like you we still have our freedom. I am very sorry that there are some who are not thankful. But there are many who are.Again thank you thanks to all who lost their lives defending America.May they they never be forgotten.

          • afchief

            Thanks! Some people/Christians are total hypocrites when it comes to this subject. They enjoy their freedom and life in America, but have NO idea at what price that freedom was payed for. They take scripture out of context to justify their legalistic position. Hypocrites!!!!

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            You welcome. We need to remember why and how we got our freedom. Many do take Bible scriptures out of context. They need to remember they will one day face God .The only thing we can do is pry for these people. That God will change their hearts before the last beat of their heart.

  • RogerSmith

    Apparently he was a Muslim. He had links to Jihadist pictures on his MySpace page.

    Christians, when are you going to learn that you compassion will be your downfall? You have a right to defend yourself. You don’t have to let someone steal everything you have, rape your wife and daughter, while you just sit there with a big goofy smile on your face because you think God will sort the whole thing out.

    It’s time for you to realize the truth. Muslims are your enemy. They are diametrically opposed to your way of life. There is only one way to proceed. Fight them! Make war with them!

    I want to see mushroom clouds over the Middle East. I want to see the deadwood swept aside, and I want to see Christians colonizing these areas and building a modern, prosperous society where there once was nothing but violence.

    • Dave_L

      “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.” (Matthew 5:39–40)

      “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;” (Matthew 5:44)

      “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:” (1 Peter 2:21–23)

      • GibbyD

        “And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough” (Luke 22:35-38)KJB. How about a 22 and a 38 ? Caliper . that is .

        • Dave_L

          “And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.” (Luke 22:38)

          ① a relatively short sword or other sharp instrument, sword, dagger

          Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 622). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

          The swords were basically daggers and probably for protection against animals since Jesus had already rebuked one disciple for using his sword on an enemy.

          “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)

          • GibbyD

            That was said before Acts 2 and before the Holy Spirit granted at Pentecost.

            “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” ( 1st Timothy 5:8)KJB. This would include providing protection. The modern equivalent for a sword would be a gun . (Luke 22:38)KJB . A 22 and 38 would do but I would add a long rifle and or shotgun too . Remember Dave , we are no longer under the yoke. Having guns is a good deterrent that helps keep evil from developing in the first place.

            In Romans 13 , ” The Power” is the one in authority who bears his sword to protect. There are powers that be and those powers do not bear the sword in vain. This could be Angelic , family heads and or Government powers.

          • Dave_L

            Thanks GibbyD. A verse I go by is;
            “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13)

            “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39)

            Resist = 468 strong’s (anthistemi): vb.; = Str 436—1. LN 39.1 be hostile toward.

            Since I consider resisting evil by hostile force a sin, I could go by Paul’s assuring me that if I resist the temptation, God will provide a way out. Still knowing I must die sometime and what better way than by peacefully honoring Jesus?

            So I at once rule out hypothetical situations that do not include the faith option. Because any situation involving me would have faith in the middle of it.

          • GibbyD

            Again Matthew 5:39 was before the cross , the church had not started and nobody was filled with The HOLY Spirit . No one yet was born again.

            If no other option is available to protect the life of the innocent and those in your care and responsibly , then lethal force must be available and included as part of providing for your own. If you are unwilling to give that effort to provide for your loved ones by defending their very lives as best you can, the YOU are worse than an unbeliever. You have swallowed and believed a doctrine of a devil .

            I Timothy 5:8 and it’s context is about widow being taken care of by family before the Church assembly would take of them in to “the number” of those that are qualified to be taken care of by the church assembly members. There were some widows who had no blood family to take care of them and if those widows were “widows indeed” without the help of family and if those widows met other qualifications, then the church filled that need. The portion reveals that family are the first to take to that responsibility for relatives that are widows and if they don’t then they are worse than infidels and or unbelievers. The general over-all principal and truth is stated and it includes more than just widows that are related to you but also ALL that closely related and kin to your household . The Bible even mentions nephews as part of those men that should take responsibility. ” But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house” . Provision has always meant more than just providing food and shelter for your wife, children and near relatives. It also includes protection from harm from physical attacks and harm. If you do not see and understand that then you are worse than an unbeliever. God is able to protect his children so that that circumstance may not occur but any man of God must be willing to do what he is enabled to do to protect those God has placed under his care . It may never happen but lethal force must be available to a Christian man , if need be, in the course of protecting others , if no other options are possible.

            You are wrong to suggest that God does not protect His Bride. Christ is our example in relationship to how a man provides and protects his wife and family. It is a perverted and evil teaching that would say a man is not permitted to protect his family from physical harm. I would go so far as to say that it is a doctrine of a devil .

            “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” ( 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10)KJB

            The Scripture does not say ” as he was so are we in this world ” But RATHER , “Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS, so are we in this world.” ( 1st John 4:17)KJB.

            “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1st John 3:2)KJB

            You said, “The whole purpose for Paul using his right was to preach the gospel before rulers and kings-he didn’t do it for his rights.” —
            — And why else would one follow the example of Paul and announce his Roman ,and or in our case American citizenship and rights? We use those rights, not as Laodecions, but with the purpose to remain free and at liberty to serve God as He directs.

            You said , “So you can’t be ready to lay down your life and share the gospel at home? When you’re at home it’s just survival mode and the gospel doesn’t matter?” —

            —- When you are a dad , husband , law officer or soldier , you have a responsibility to protect those under your care and in your commission to defend and protect. You must be willing to give your life , not only in the cause of Christ and the Gospel but also in the cause and effort protecting others from evil men and seducers and any who would attempt to do physical and or other harm to others where you can do something to prevent it .
            Romans 13 gives addition reasons why lethal force is justified.
            The Lord Jesus also never rebuked the soldiers that came to him in faith seeking healing for another. Jesus commended the soldier’s faith and did not rebuke him and say anything about his role as a soldier.

          • Dave_L

            You’ve gone to great lengths to prove Christians should reject Jesus’ clear teachings about Loving enemies. But I do not see any examples of Christians in the New Testament practicing what you preach. P.S. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

          • GibbyD

            I quoted you the Scriptures and the reasons why you are in error. I have done that a few times now but you refused to acknowledge.

            Dave_l you should love the lost enough that it would move to be a witness.
            Romans 13 and the other scriptures that were Previously listed are relevant .

          • wamo53

            Hello GibbyD. Isn’t it convenient how Dave_L doesn’t mention that we are commanded “Resist the devil, and he will flee from us”? Also, what about one putting a thousand to flight and two putting ten thousand to flight.

            Finally, whether he is a born again believer or not only God knows for sure but in his “testimony” to Kena something is missing. As seemingly wonderful as it sounds, why is there a distinct lack of what is required if Yehoshua is our Saviour? Our testimony is supposed to be that He is our Lord and Saviour and according to Scripture nobody can say that He is our Lord without the power of the Holy Spirit in us (Phil. 2: 10 – 11 and 1 Cor. 12: 3). Dave_L has not declared that. So he cried one night, okay, maybe he became convicted, but he didn’t say what he did about it. If he sees this post he will probably amend his testimony and suddenly start declaring the Lordship of HaMashiach in his life, but up to now he only goes on about his Sermon on the Mount faith walk, which inherently is proper, but his application of it smacks of Salvation by Works.
            God grant us discernment and protection lest even the elect be deceived.
            God bless you Brother.

          • GibbyD

            amen . “But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.” ( John 10:12)KJB

        • FoJC_Forever

          Dave_L isn’t a Christian. He just creates and online persona to look like one. You will get nowhere engaging him, since he’ll just quote Scripture to argue with you.

          He simply researches what other people write and copy/pastes it here, and most likely other places as well. He has no actual knowledge of God, nor is he in Covenant with the LORD.

          He is one of many people who peruse these types of boards. Be aware of religious predators. They tend to target unsuspecting women, using fake religious knowledge to appear to be godly.

          • Dave_L

            When we judge others we must use ourselves as the standard of righteousness, because if we use God as the standard, we condemn ourselves as well.

          • FoJC_Forever

            If those of us who know Jesus judge others by God’s standards, we judge according to Truth. When this is done, we are not the ones judging, it’s God’s Word which is judging. When the Holy Spirit reveals the motives and character of a person, those of us who know Jesus (the) Christ are directed to reveal the Truth.

            The Truth is that you are a pretender, an online schemer, one who constructs a persona of being a Christian so you can fool the unwary and harass those of us who follow Jesus (the) Christ.

          • Dave_L

            God’s Word you say? Produce it. Lets see one verse that condemns anything I’ve said.

          • FoJC_Forever

            You’re like a schoolyard bully. Always challenging people to a fight, only now you use the Scriptures to pick the fights. If you were being honest, instead of playing this comment board, fake Christian persona, at least someone could interact honestly with you. But, you aren’t.

            You’ll pay for your online stalking. I don’t look to the law. I look to the LORD for retribution, and you will receive yours from Him. When it happens, you won’t be making your quippy posts, only being overwhelmed with fear and regret.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            You are right.He is like a schoolyard bully. He dose what he can to cause us to fight. Than tells us to turn the other cheek or we are not Christians. Pray for him. Maybe he will receive the truth and be saved.

          • afchief

            People like this are actually paid by liberal and/or homosexual sites to cause disruption on Christian and conservative boards. I see it all the time.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I believe it is true.Sad to think people enjoy causing trouble.

          • Dave_L

            If you search my posts you’ll find a considerable amount of debate against homosexuals that I’ve engaged in. I am neither liberal or conservative because you cannot preach the Gospel to Conservatives as a Liberal or visa versa.

            I forgive you for judging without checking first.

          • afchief

            Then what are you? As a Christian the Conservative way lines up with the word of God. Someone who does not take a stand or is in the middle is one who compromises. No such thing with Christians. It is either wrong or right, truth or a lie, fact or fiction. There is NO middle ground!!!

          • Dave_L

            Jesus said he is not of this world and Christians likewise are not to be of this world. Politically minded Christians – are – of this world and carnal minded.

          • afchief

            Oh please, stop with the liberal rehtoric! You cannot separate you faith from anything. What does being salt and light mean to you? Christians should care about politics because, ultimately, we care about people. Government has an increasingly large influence on the lives of people, thus we cannot ignore politics. Almost every law reflects someone’s idea of morality. Since God’s morality is ultimate and universal, society benefits from the Christian’s participation in the public square. That is, society benefits when biblical truth is reflected in law. Indeed, Christians should be involved in all aspects of society, including law, art, music, economics, science, etc.

            READ your bible!!!!

          • Dave_L

            Please provide Scripture references to back your claims.

          • afchief

            Matthew 5:13-16 (NASB) “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how [a]can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a [b]hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a [c]basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

          • Dave_L

            So how does all of this relate to anything but Preaching the Gospel and living like Jesus, turning the other cheek, and loving enemies?

          • afchief

            What I just said above. Did you vote this last election? If so, who did you vote for?

          • Dave_L

            What does voting have to do with preaching the Gospel and following Christ? Do you have an example where Jesus or the Apostles ever meddled in politics? Just one? PS. I am registered and vote for the least amount of over-all innocent blood shed. Including the blood of enemies.

          • afchief

            Let me more specific. Did you vote for 0bama?

          • Dave_L

            It is none of your business, that is why we have little curtains around the polls.

          • afchief

            I take that for a yes and that explains a lot!!!

          • Dave_L

            Actually I did not.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Yes he has said he is against Homosexuals. But we Christians must let them Adopted babies. He had a talk with W.G.C. about it. I don’t think you were Judging him. .

          • Dave_L

            So you think Abortion is better than SSM adoption???????

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I hate you . You are the only person I will ever say that too. May God forgive me but I hate you!!!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            Jesus told us to turn the other cheek.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I hate you.

          • afchief

            Jesus didn’t just “turn the other cheek” when he confronted those moneychangers. He took a whip and beat the living tar out of them. He also bluntly instructed His disciples to buy a sword–even if they had to sell clothes in order to obtain the money to make the purchase. (Luke 22:36) In this passage, Jesus made the sword a higher priority than clothing. That certainly sounds to me like Jesus affirmed the principle that more guns (a Roman sword being the First Century equivalent) IS the answer.

          • Dave_L

            First point considered;

            “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” (John 2:15–17)

            Notice that in the end, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. Jesus fullfilled all Old Testament righteousness under its acceptance and use of violence, as did John the Baptist in telling the soldiers to do their job fairly. But the New Testament was not fully inaugerated at that time. Today the Sermon on the Mount is our ethic. Indeed, we cannot be a Christian without endeavoring to walk according to it.

            Second point;

            “And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.” (Luke 22:38)

            First notice they had 2 swords between 12 guys. Jesus said they are enough.

            Also notice they were actually daggers according to the greek definition of the word sword in that verse.

            Greek = a relatively short sword or other sharp instrument, sword, dagger

            Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 622). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

            So; the two swords were basically daggers. Probably used as props to help get Jesus falsely accused and arrested for civil crimes. It was necessary for him to pay for all moral and civil sins.

            When Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword on an enemy, he gave us an example to follow for all time.

            “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)

          • afchief

            You enjoy the freedom you have today because of who? You can type on your computer today because of who? You can work and travel all over America today because of who?

            Where you fail is that God looks at the heart. If I have murder in my heart that is sin. But, if I’m defending others or laying my life down for others that is NOT sin.

            KNOW THE WORD OF GOD!!!!

            Because right now you are a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            Where does the Sermon on the Mount fit into your theory. I’m very curious how you make Christ fir into your attempts to justify violence.

          • afchief

            Do I have to keep repeating myself???? Jesus didn’t just “turn the other cheek” when he confronted those moneychangers. He took a whip and beat the living tar out of them. He also bluntly instructed His disciples to buy a sword–even if they had to sell clothes in order to obtain the money to make the purchase. (Luke 22:36) In this passage, Jesus made the sword a higher priority than clothing. That certainly sounds to me like Jesus affirmed the principle that more guns (a Roman sword being the First Century equivalent) IS the answer.

          • Dave_L

            “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.” (John 2:15–17)

            Notice that in the end, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. Jesus fullfilled all Old Testament righteousness under its acceptance and use of violence, as did John the Baptist in telling the soldiers to do their job fairly. But the New Testament was not fully inaugerated at that time. Today the Sermon on the Mount is our ethic. Indeed, we cannot be a Christian without endeavoring to walk according to it.

            Second point;

            “And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.” (Luke 22:38)

            First notice they had 2 swords between 12 guys. Jesus said they are enough.

            Also notice they were actually daggers according to the greek definition of the word sword in that verse.

            Greek = a relatively short sword or other sharp instrument, sword, dagger

            Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 622). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

            So; the two swords were basically daggers. Probably used as props to help get Jesus falsely accused and arrested for civil crimes. It was necessary for him to pay for all moral and civil sins.

            When Jesus rebuked Peter for using his sword on an enemy, he gave us an example to follow for all time.

            “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)

          • afchief

            WOW! You are not only a hypocrite, you are totally ignorant of the word of God!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            What other interpretation is possible since Jesus never advocates anything but love for enemies?

          • afchief

            I guess it was love when Jesus drove out the money changers with a whip and when he told His disciples to carry a sword?

          • Dave_L

            If you carefully read the “whip” passage, Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. Plus he was under Old Testament Law that allowed abundantly for violence at the hands of Israel. We are now under the New Testament where pacifism is the norm.

            The disciples ended up with two short daggers (Greek word for sword in that passage). This meant, 12 disciples had 2 daggers among them. Also, Peter cut off an enemy’s ear and Jesus rebuked him saying;

            “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)

            This also means Christians are never to bear arms in private or civil capacities in an effort to resist evil.

          • afchief

            Again, you have absoutley no understanding of the Word of God. None! I’m done trying to make you understand. Maybe God will open your eyes someday.

          • Dave_L

            Please consider what I’ve said. Jesus does not advocate retaliation and ill treatment of enemies, only love instead. You cannot justify war, using his whip to drive cattle from the Temple, as a sign of his approval when the entire New Testament condemns war and violence.

          • afchief

            It is quite apparent you have no understanding of the Word of God.

            In fact you are a hypocrite!!!

          • Dave_L

            How am I a hypocrite? Do you know the definition?

          • afchief

            Read your posts. It’s clear as day!

          • Dave_L

            You cannot accuse me of being a hypocrite unless you know for sure I do not live according to what I say. Plus, we are not to judge others. I.e., form opinions about their motives.

            Greek; to judge = pass judgment upon, express an opinion about Mt 7:1a, 2a; Lk 6:37a;

            We are not to do this.

          • afchief

            Yes, you are quite the hypocrite!!! The very freedom you enjoy today is because thousands (if not millions) of Christians died fighting for it.

            Yes, YOU are a hypocrite!!!!

          • flackmaster00

            you were in the armed service, so you ought to know that there are plenty of atheists and other religions represented. they died for the same American freedoms, it is not something that Christians have any claim on.

          • Dave_L

            Christians do not bear arms because Jesus did not. There is not one shred of Scripture to support your position.

            Here is what James says about your “Christians in war theory”.

            “From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.” (James 4:1–4)

          • afchief

            How long have you been a Christian? I see NO wisdom or understanding of God’s word. None!!!!

            I will repeat what you are………a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!!

          • Dave_L

            I’ve been a Christian long enough to know what Jesus teaches and how most who claim to know him reject his teaching. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many follow that path.

          • afchief

            How long?

          • Dave_L

            Over 2/3 of my life.

          • afchief

            Years?

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Amen and amen again.

          • FoJC_Forever

            He has no intention of receiving the Truth. He uses Scripture to deceive and harass people. He’s no Saul to be turned into Paul, for certain. He likes the drama, and he fuels it with his snide remarks which are veiled as spiritual goodness.

          • Dave_L

            I pray that Jesus would guide me in his word every day in my Bible study time. You should try it if you don’t already. There is great reward and freedom in the truth.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Your prayers aren’t working. You are a deceiver, like your father the Devil.

          • Dave_L

            So is it you who answers prayers? Only the one answering prayers can make your claim.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Dave_L is getting my stuff deleted.

          • FoJC_Forever

            Yeah, I’ve noticed that concerning my comments as well. Maybe he has a connection with the site or with Disqus. Could be a hacker. Whatever is happening, there is some definite deception and bias going on here. God sees all and those who play such games will pay for their deception, and fraud. Deleting the comments doesn’t remove the words from Reality, it only creates a false image, a deception, an illusion.

            The person behind the moniker Dave_L is a stalker – this I know for an absolute fact. He is a deceiver, but people often embrace deception. Beware, those he counts as an “enemy” may be targeted by him.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            There are other post people have made with Dave_L that also got deleted. I believe what are saying is true. I begged him to leave people alone. But he will not.I asked him not to respond to me anymore. The only way he will stop is that I stop. So far so good.I am now an enemy of him in his eyes I’m sure. Just be careful and be safe:)

          • FoJC_Forever

            He/she likes the attention. It makes him feel powerful and important to get reactions from people. he is only one of many lying trolls pretending to be Christians on the internet.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I am no longer giving her/him my attention. I have seen a lot of trolls. Although I think some of them are the same person. But not all of them.
            Good night.

          • FoJC_Forever

            His moniker is Dave_L. I am wondering if he is David Loveless. Google the name. He speaks as one who would pretend to be a minister of God, all the while committing adultery.

          • Dave_L

            No, Dave_L is a posting name like yours or LFB’s.

          • Kena

            Hello Dave,
            Can you share your testimony with us Brother? Perhaps that will clear up some things.

            Blessings,
            Kenny

          • Dave_L

            Thanks for asking. I have a personal testimony that still makes my head spin. But I think it would be less about me and more about Christ to show the frame-work about how I understand my salvation.

            I can give you my understanding of how God saved me. Just as Scripture says, I match this description;

            “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:” (Ephesians 2:1–6)

          • Kena

            Can you please give a more personal testimony Brother? Many here say that you do not know Jesus Christ and I would like to discern whether or not they are correct.

            Blessings,
            Kenny

          • Dave_L

            When I was 20 years old, over a period of a few days, I tasted what I can now identify as fruit of the Holy Spirit, i.e., joy and happiness, I knew Jesus was drawing near to me.

            I began telling others that I didn’t know what was happening, but I think Jesus is real and I somehow sense his presence.

            At this point some of the others began searching their own hearts. One went back and began looking at his Lutheran Catechism out of curiosity.

            A few days later, one evening in my room, I felt crushed by a conviction of how wretched I was. I hadn’t done anything to bizarre or too unusual. I just wept over my state of wretchedness that came over me.

            But along with this feeling of filth I sensed Jesus’ presence developing, the same I had sensed earlier of love and joy. I knew it was him, possibly from hearing the Gospel or a version of it at an earlier time as a kid in a church.

            Sobbing I asked Jesus to forgive me for what I was and to come into my heart. (again, probably from the memory of some version of the Gospel). I remember falling asleep exhausted.

            The next morning I awoke and immediately began looking for a Bible. I had never been happier or more full of joy in my life than that morning, even to this day.

            I began witnessing to friends and saw a string of converts wanting what I had, including my girl friend/and only wife. But time began weeding the others out.

            A year later I dropped my career plans as a matter of conscience and began practicing the Sermon on the Mount full time as my career. I call it being a career Christian VS being a Christian with a career.

            I have studied theology on my own and have collected a sizable library over the years.

          • Kena

            Praise the Lord Brother and God bless you.

            What do you mean by the Sermon on the Mount is your career? how do you make a living from that?

          • Dave_L

            When I quit my career my wife and I were broke and homeless, not even a car or a phone. But it was something I had to do out of the fear of God and for piece of mind.

            I knew Jesus promised that if we would seek first his Kingdom and His righteousness, He would take care of us Materially as well as Spiritually.

            Scripture tells us that if we do not provide for our own, we are worse than an infidel. So in seeking first the Kingdom, I began there having that motive.

            I took the first low rung minimum wage part time job I could find. I had no marketable skills other than the ones I laid aside.

            To make a very long story short, God was and is faithful to His Word. Along the way I survived one recession related business closing, remaining till the last day with no job prospects whatever. But continued working for a new employer the following Monday – without knocking on a single door.

            I never became unemployed through several recessions. And ended up with another closing, but retiring early on my own dime with zero debt and no need for assistance.

            There are some really great “through many dangerous toils and snares” adventures along the way, and living like a king on a shoestring during the lean times. Perhaps another time.

            Here’s Matthew 6:24-34; It really works for those who make a career from it!

            “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life,
            what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

            And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

            Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.” (Matthew 6:24–34)

          • Kena

            My experience with God is very similar to yours. I always trust and depend on him and we always have our needs met. Right now I’m disabled and my wife returned to work. We see God’s provision daily in our lives, he never fails us. I developed some memory problems but have some testimonies typed out concerning God’s provision etc. I will look for them and post them here.

            Blessings,
            Kenny

          • Dave_L

            Please do Kenny, and thanks for giving me the opportunity to share.

          • Kena

            Thanks for sharing Brother. 🙂

          • Kena

            One summer we were having a hard time keeping the garden, yard and trees alive. We were carrying water daily to ensure we would have some kind of harvest.

            We would see storms develop on the horizon, moving toward us with
            lightening and thunder. We could see rain falling in areas around us
            but never on us. This went on most of the summer. Even the weeds were dying and trees were shriveling. The pasture was almost pure dust and when the storms would come they would be a dust storm. I had enough and needed to do something about it.

            I saw on the horizon another storm developing. I went into my bedroom and prayed about “what I should do?’. I was lead to immediately gather the children outside and cry out to Yahweh for rain. The kids at first looked at me as though I were joking. When they saw me doing it they quickly joined in and we continued until the rain began to pour (it took less than five minutes). We immediately broke into raucous praise. We danced in the rain praising Yahweh for letting us see his provision in our lives. It rained and continued to rain for about a week solidly. The rest of the season we had our normal allotment of rain with no storm damage.

          • Dave_L

            Wow!!!! Bless the Lord!

          • Kena

            God is amazing Brother and we see his hand in our lives just as he promised, amen?

          • Kena

            I one time needed a job desperately. Where we lived was very secluded. My drive way was 1/4 mile through the forest and it was impossible to see the house from any road or neighbor’s house.

            I walked out to get the mail and a man that I had worked for in the past pulled up in his vehicle and said that he had been looking for me. he asked me if I was looking for a job because he needed me to start first thing in the morning. God answered my prayers and even sent the man to hire me right at my mailbox, no application or interview etc.

            I expect God to do just as he said he would, amen?

            Matthew 6:
            25 ¶ Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
            26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
            27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
            28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
            29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
            30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
            31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
            32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
            33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

          • Kena

            God cares for us

            I want to share some instances with my brothers and sisters showing that God will care for us through the hard times ahead.

            There was a time in my life when I was unemployed with $2 in my pocket and only enough gas in my truck to get me into town. The $2 was for gas to get me back home. We were eating our supper not knowing what was for supper tomorrow. When we finished eating my wife said “what are we going to do honey?” We walked to the back door and I answered “I don’t know, but God will provide.”

            Just then, two Amish men came walking out of my woods into my yard. They were looking for a driver to transport them and their equipment to a job site in the morning. I accepted and informed them of my circumstances. They agreed to keep my tank full and pay me daily for driving. Before we reached the job site the first morning I had a job as a roofer, and I had no experience. I was making more money than I ever had in my life. They paid for fuel, mileage and high hourly rate.

            November 2008:
            I got laid off from a good job and was driving home (about 1100 miles). The sun was setting and I started feeling like I had let my family down. I felt like a real loser. Depression was setting in and I cried out to Yahweh to “do something to help me overcome this depression. I pulled into the hotel, paid for my room and carried my laptop into the room.

            When I awoke in the morning I looked for my bible and realized that I left it in the truck. I turned on my laptop and prayed for direction for what scriptures I should listen to (I have the bible in mp3). This is what he gave to me…

            1st Kings 17:
            1 ¶ And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said to Ahab, As Yahweh God of Israel lives, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.
            2 And the word of Yahweh came to him, saying,
            3 Get you hence, and turn you eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.
            4 And it shall be, that you shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed you there.
            5 So he went and did according to the word of Yahweh: for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.
            6 And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook.
            7 And it came to pass after a while, that the brook dried up, because there had been no rain in the land.
            8 ¶ And the word of Yahweh came to him, saying,
            9 Arise, get you to Zarephath, which belongs to Zidon, and remain there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain you.
            10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray you, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
            11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray you, a morsel of bread in your hand.
            12 And she said, As Yahweh your God lives, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
            13 And Elijah said to her, Fear not; go and do as you have said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it to me, and after make for you and for your son.
            14 For thus says Yahweh God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that Yahweh sends rain upon the earth.
            15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
            16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of Yahweh, which he spoke by Elijah.
            17 ¶ And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
            18 And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with you, O you man of God? have you come to me to call my sin to remembrance, and to kill my son?
            19 And he said to her, Give me your son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.
            20 And he cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, have you also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by killing her son?
            21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to Yahweh, and said, O Yahweh my God, I pray you, let this child’s soul come into him again.
            22 And Yahweh heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
            23 And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother: and Elijah said, See, your son lives.
            24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of Yahweh in your mouth is truth.

            So far the ravens have brought me money, food, provided feed for my animals, firewood, plowed my driveway, etc.

            My tractor has refused to start since I’ve been home so I can’t get fire wood or plow my driveway (300 feet). The day before Thanksgiving my wife prayed for God to start the tractor. She went out and tried to start it… nothing. Thanksgiving morning the children went to the barn to feed the animals. They feed the ponies in the corral to keep the ponies used to being handled. They heard the tractor start and said to themselves “dad got the tractor started and must be hiding from us”. They could plainly see the tractor and I was not there. At the same time my wife came into the bathroom (I was in the shower) and said “the children started the tractor for you”. You need to plow the driveway so that everyone can get in and out of the driveway for Thanksgiving. I thought “how in the world could they start that thing when I couldn’t?”. I went out and there were no foot prints any where near my tractor! God started the tractor! I plowed my driveway with a big smile that day. When I was done plowing I parked the tractor, turned it off and immediately tried to start it again. Nothing, I had run the thing for over an hour. It should have started, but nothing, And there it sits to this day, refusing to start.

            HaleluYah!

            Addendum: The Summer of 2010 my son and I got the tractor started, we replaced the starter and a hydraulic hose and it started right up.

          • FoJC_Forever

            No, using a proper name that isn’t yours is a deception. My username describes who I am. If Dave isn’t your name, then you are simply deceiving people into thinking you name is Dave or David. However, given the level of your dishonesty, it may be your name and you’re trying to deflect with your claim that it isn’t your name.

          • Dave_L

            Tis not wise to use personal information on the Internet forums. It is not being deceptive unless a person is extremely naive.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            He is getting all my stuff deleted.

          • Dave_L

            Jesus tells you to turn the other cheek.

            “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.” (Matthew 5:39)

          • Dave_L

            Again, I forgive you.

          • FoJC_Forever

            And you continue with the mind games. I don’t need to be forgiven by you, because I have not committed a sin against you. Some people will believe your persistence in pretending to be a Christian, but you will only fool those who do not know Jesus (the) Christ.

            Judgement is coming.

          • Dave_L

            People need to trust in Jesus and study the Bible to see if what I say is true. They owe it to me to show me from Scripture where I’m wrong.

          • FoJC_Forever

            People need to trust, love, and follow Jesus (the) Christ and let the Holy Spirit teach them the Scriptures. They also need to completely ignore you.

          • Dave_L

            You should practice what you preach and begin ignoring me….

          • Kena

            FoJC_Forever, Can you please tell me what you base this accusation of Dave_L being a pretender and a schemer? I just happened across this conversation and am not familiar with any of you.

            BTW I’m a Christian for 35 years now, just thought I would let you know.

            blessings.
            Kenny

          • GibbyD

            We are not to Judge in the sense of punish for that is what the Koine Greek word (Krino) means . We can though form an opinion based on fruit and know them by the same.

          • Dave_L

            I forgive you.

          • FoJC_Forever

            And you continue with the mind games. I don’t need to be forgiven by
            you, since I have not committed a sin against you. Some people will
            believe your persistence in pretending to be a Christian, but you will
            only fool those who do not know Jesus (the) Christ.

            Judgement is coming.

          • Dave_L

            I need to forgive you because God tells me to.

          • FoJC_Forever

            God wouldn’t tell you do perform a Lie. I have not sinned against you, therefore I do not need to be forgiven by you. God does not tell anyone to forgive someone who has not sinned against them, That would make forgiveness nothing but an empty motion based on making someone look like they’ve done something that have not done.

            You are a deceiver and liar. Your deception is working, however. There are people who think you’re a Christian. You will pay for your deception, just as the Deceiver will pay.

          • Dave_L

            I forgive you and wonder if it is beyond you capacity to show Christian love and kindness.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          Please be careful with Dave_L. He is what he says he is. Please pray for him.

          • Dave_L

            “To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.” (Titus 3:2)

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Than you need to learn that yourself. All you know it to be hurtful to Christians. You are a LIAR. A Christian HATER. You can’t even do as Jesus would do. Jesus is NOTHING like YOU! You pretend that are something you are not! WE know what you really are But I will still Stand in the Gap for you and Pray for you. And I will Pray that God will STOP YOU. For the sake of the true Christian Whom you hate so much:( You with your hate are not fooling us. Only a person with demonic hatred would treat Christians like you do.Your heart is filled with hatred.
            Shalom to all the Christian you mistreat through your hate of Christians.

          • Dave_L

            I have never said an unkind word about anyone on this board. All I do is share what God has shown to me in the Bible in hopes others will delight in it as I do. There is nothing more profound than Jesus and what he teaches in the Sermon on the Mount. I have made a career out of it, and gave up my old career to practice it. It really works and you do not know what you are missing.

          • Kena

            Can you share a link or something so that I can see what you are referring to please?

            Blessings,
            Kenny

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            I hate you

          • Kena

            🙂 lol It’s okay Sister.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Thank you sister in Christ:)

          • Kena

            Well if you saw me you would never think I was a Sister. I have a full beard, lol.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Sorry Brother in Christ. I can’t see your beard:)

          • Kena

            That’s okay.
            One time I was invited to a women’s quilting bee by a bunch of Sisters in Christ and the same time was invited to join a Christian motorcycle club. The funny part is that I had a picture of myself for an avatar with a large beard, lol. God bless those Sisters for thinking of me but I had to decline the offer.

            God bless you Sister.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            God Bless you too Brother.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Dave_L is having my stuff Deleted. I am almost to the point of hating him , May God forgive me

      • afchief

        Jesus is speaking to the “individual” in the verses you quote. If it was me they were threatening then yes, I would give my life for others. But if the my family, the weak and others are being threaten, I will defend them.

        Would you stand by and watch your loved ones get beheaded?

        Jesus took a whip to the ones soiling the Temple and knocked over their stalls and tables. Is that somehow not violent and righteous anger in the defense of Religion?

        “No greater love exists than this, that one should lay down one’s life for his friends.” John 15:13

        And you would be laying down your life by running away? By NOT trying to stop the evil about to kill your friends? How would you stop the evil about to kill your friends without using violence yourself? I suppose you could create examples, but in too many cases the bad guy will need to bite the dust.

        The Church early on saw that pacifism would be a loser in the face of violent Germanic and Hunnic barbarians: the armies of the later Roman Empire undoubtedly contained many Christians. Christianity does not go out looking for a fight, but using violence in the defense of others or for self-defense is certainly allowed.

        • Dave_L

          You make a lot of points. Each one could take a considerable amount of space to answer. So I will offer a blanket reply. If you would like to continue, you could post one point at a time for me to answer. It would be good for all to see both your position and mine.

          So I must say, Christians from Germany, France, The UK, and America all held your view in both world wars. They killed each other contrary to the teachings of Christ thinking they could carry both the cross and the sword at the same time. But what is legal and expected of God’s civil kingdom is not permissable for those in His spiritual kingdom the Church.

          The proof is that Scripture abounds with instructions about non-violence and returning good instead of evil towards evil. Where not one mention of Christians becoming civil magistrates or being their accomplises is ever made.

          Christians are to return good for evil. The magistrate must return evil fo evil or else cease to exist.

          • afchief

            This is where I call pacifist Christians like you hypocrites. The very country you live in was fought for by Christians. You live under a blanket of freedom that was provided for you by millions of Christians who died in previous wars keeping this country and others free.

            The Bible also tells us that Jesus said: A man who does not own a sword should sell his cloak and buy one. Luke 22:36

            Nowhere do I see the Bible saying that we should not protect ourselves from evil.

          • Dave_L

            “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36)

          • afchief

            Again, you are proving that you do not KNOW or understand God’s Word.

            The kingdom of God is not of this earth. It is within you (if you are a Christian). Jesus would not call His angles down to fight for him because He had a mission to fulfill. To go to the cross for every human being who would walk this earth. Learn to study the Word in context and what it is saying.

            Please stop with you legalistic uneducated bible quoting. I have been a Spirit filled Christian for 33 years. I was a youth pastor and elder in several churches and have read the bible through and through 11 to 12 times. I’m always learning, but God has given me enough wisdom and discernment to understand and to know when someone does not know what they are talking about.

          • Dave_L

            It sounds as though your faith is in your skills and experience. Paul warns us that; Knowledge puffeth up – 1 Corinthians 8:1 .

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      I will fight. I will not listen to people like*Dave_L*. He would love to see Christians die while turning the other cheek. I can love my enemy and still fight to live.

      • Dave_L

        If you love your enemy as yourself and you kill him/her in love. Then you love yourself a little more than you do your enemy.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          You are my enemy!!! But I can Love you through Christ to Stand in the Gap for your soul pray and fast for you. But…………………………………….
          I will speak out against your hatred of Christians. You can’t even show a little kindness to Christians. Because your hate for them is too strong:( Your hate be upon your head.

          • Dave_L

            How does sharing the Sermon on the Mount and the wonders of Christ hurt anyone but the Devil and his children?

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            YOU know what I am talking about. YOU have showed a side of you that is hateful to Christians. You hurt Christians through your hate of them . The more you hurt them the better you feel. That is what Demonic hate will do to a person.
            May God Protect all Christians from your hate. May God stop you from hurting the Christians. Your hate will return to you.

          • Dave_L

            Please post an example, a quote or something. If I said something “unchristian” I’ll take it back.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Go back your self and see how you Judged people When they should not do that. I forgot it is okay for to judge but not others. You need to see how you hurt people in other ways. Even though I have no respect for you because you mistreat people. I will pray that God will stop you from hurting people. That you will be delivered.

          • Dave_L

            I cannot think of any unchristian things I’ve said.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            Than you are blind.

          • Dave_L

            I would challenge you to pray the same prayer to God, in Jesus’ name, about yourself and see what happens.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            You are a BULLY!

          • Dave_L

            I bet if you would pray the same prayer for yourself that you pray for me, all of this would be cleared up – soon. Try it and really mean it when you ask Jesus to do the same for you.

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            P.S. look at some of the things you said to Lady Green Eyes. You were unkind to her and others as well. You are too blind to see. One day you will understand what you are doing is wrong. But sadly that day may be too late for you. God Christ can save you. But He will not go against your Free will. He gives you the way. But it is up to you to receive or to reject.
            In the past I have seen how you treat Christians. I also have seen how Hard core Atheist seem to like what you say to the Christians and how they will up vote you.May be you are one of them trying to Cause trouble with the Christians. Funny thing is that these Atheist who seem to like you hates Christ. They must know something we don’t know about you.Maybe who you really are…………………………………………….. God will reveal the truth about you, and God will stop you in His time.

          • Dave_L

            Please post anything I said to Lady Green Eyes other than what Scripture expects of Christian women with children. Staying home and taking care of them. And valuing them more than money spent on things other than basic needs.

            What is wrong with taking Paul at his word?

          • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

            You Mr bully can can look up what you have said to her. I do not do that copy cut and past stuff. I do take snap shot and save them. Leave the Christians alone . Stop being a bully.

          • Dave_L

            What is wrong with quoting Paul about placing children above money? What if her kids do not turn out, would’t it be better knowing you did all you could according to the Bible to raise them properly?

    • Sirius

      Typical “Christian” fascist pig. Eliminate those who don’t follow your dirty, little ideology.

    • bowie1

      According to reports he said he was not religious, just spiritual, and hated organized religion.

  • Donna Szelowski

    He is where he belongs now .One second and you saw God too you psychopath .

  • LisaGraceBooks

    This was not a random shooting, but one targeting Christians. Gun control won’t stop criminals from committing acts of violence.

    • Dave_L

      Guns make killing easy. In fact one can kill many on a whim. If there aren’t any guns can lazy cowards still shoot people?

    • LisaGraceBooks

      Dave_L – Gun control solves nothing. Criminals will keep their guns, they’re not registered in the first place.
      Anyone can make a gun with a 3D printer. If guns are taken away, terrorists will just use other weapons like gas bombs.

      • Mark Bouckaert

        Only one problem with your rebuttal. The US has twice as many guns per capita than any other western world country and it also has twice as many gun deaths. This was on an abc report two years ago… Google “U.S. Has More Guns – And Gun Deaths – Than Any Other Country, Study Finds”

        And you think some looser in a basement that didn’t finish high school is capable of creating a gas bomb? Or has access to a 3d printer?

        There are some good programs in the world where you need to pass a course to get a gun. You shouldn’t be able to sell your gun on the street to just anyone.

        • LisaGraceBooks

          Mark – Only two problems with your rebuttal:
          You’re kidding, right? A gas bomb is simply a glass bottle filled with gas, and a strip of cloth. Yes, any loser can make one. The internet is filled with dozens of ways to make explosives. What o you think fireworks are? Any “loser” can run in and buy them.
          This particular loser managed to buy over a dozen guns. He managed to come up with the money to buy guns, so yes, he could come up wth the money to buy a 3D printer.
          People in Oregon decide their own laws for gun permitting and registration. This is the “United” States, not a socialistic country.
          We have a constitutional right to bear arms for a good reason. Otherwise we would still be a colony of England.
          Oregon needs to set stricter permitting laws if that is what they want.

        • afchief

          The Second Amendment does not exist so people can punch holes in paper or hunt for food. That’s a beneficial side effect. The Second Amendment exists as a formal recognition of every human’s Creator-Endowed Right to protect their own life in the gravest extreme, irrespective of why that extreme situation exists, when, or where.

          Take your liberal anti-Constitution garbage elsewhere!!!

      • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

        Far more Americans (including children) are killed every year by gun toting Americans that radical Islam every hoped to kill. We spend Billion$ every year going after radical Islam, but do nothing about establishing rational gun control measures–even universal background checks cannot be established.

        This is absolute madness. Are you one of those who agree with Jeb Bush, that when children get mowed down, it’s “stuff happens?”

        • LisaGraceBooks

          This was a terrorist action He was a muslim and asked who was a Christian before he shot and killed them.

          • Mark Bouckaert

            He wanted to be a god in hell.

            And there are gun laws that reduce gun deaths. Most of the deaths are due to improper safety followed.

            In Canada you need to pass a course on gun safety, laws and storage. It’s created by the gun owners and administered by them.

            If this guy had no prior convictions though, he’d still be able to get guns.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            That last sentence is a good argument for comprehensive background checks that include family mental history. Some, as you imply, would even slip by the background check, having no record such infirmities, but are very much on-the-edge.

            It seems that many argue that since we can’t stop them all, we should do nothing. Their indifference to the suffering of others is astonishing.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Of course it was hate filled terrorism, and it apparently was domestic terrorism, just as most others in the U.S. have been.

            Same thing goes. To allow unfettered access to firearms is madness advocated only by those indifferent to the deaths of innocent children and adults. If it had been your child, likely you would have a very different opinion and at least agree to a thorough, universal background check that includes the mentally deficient and those prone to violence.

          • LisaGraceBooks

            Max Furr – You made an awful lot of incorrect assumptions on my views based on my stating this was a murderous act against Christians.

            I happen to be *for* extensive background checks. I have a mentally ill relative who owns a gun, and has anger managment issues. I believe once a person is diagnosed with a mental illness, owning a gun should not be possible.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Sorry I erred on that issue. I’m happy that you agree with sensible gun control, but I don’t consider one issue an “awful lot of incorrect assumptions.”

            For this instance, it does appear that the unstable person was indeed targeting Christians. According to the UK publication, Express, he was “obsessed with Nazi memorabilia” and seemed to have had lonly life and upset that he was still a virgin and he couldn’t get a girlfriend. Too, apparently it wasn’t just Christianity he hated, but all religions.

            While one must be anguished over the deed and for all those affected, one should, I think, have pity on him and understand that he was indeed a sick, lonely and underachieving individual.

            There are many out there. Mental health is very serious issue, as I’m sure you know. Bernie Sanders said that he wanted that to be a high priority in his (potential) administration.

          • afchief

            The liberal logic = Killing is bad = Guns kill people = Guns are bad = Therefore ban guns.

            “A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government”.

            George Washington

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Your argument is unbelievably naive. Conservatives continually leave out or disregard the word “disciplined” and “well regulated.”

          • afchief

            Given the proof of Fast and Furious gun running to Mexico and apparent gun running through Libya that resulted in the Benghazi Massacre, it seems like little barry likes guns just fine. He just does not like guns in the hands of Americans who demand their liberty

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Sorry that you are so paranoid and fearful. You’ve been subjected to the emotional rhetoric of self serving politicians for quite a while.

            Here is evidence of the right wing’s propaganda system that molds the thoughts of its followers (courtesy of Newt Gingrich): Google “Language: A Key Mechanism of Control” plus “information clearinghouse.” This will show you just how good propaganda is structured.

          • afchief

            Ahhh silly liberal, let us Christian Tea Party Conservatives stick to the truth and facts. Liberals have none!!!!

            JUST FACTS

            The US is 8th in the world in murders ▬▬►14,827 in 2012.
            But per-capita murder rate the United States is 111th out of 218.
            And the cities that have the toughest gun control laws in the United States have the highest murder rate:

            Chicago: 532
            New York: 419
            Detroit: 411
            Philadelphia: 334

            Take out the Democratic controlled inner cities of L.A., Detroit, Chicago, and WDC and we are one of the safest countries in the world. Note those are the cities with the strictest gun laws too, lol.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            First, we need to understand that local and State gun regulations have little effect because they can be easily purchased and delivered from locals and States with weak or no gun laws. This is the best argument for SENSIBLE national firearm regulations such as a comprehensive background checks that include mental problems and a history of violence.

            Secondly, it is deceptive to compare the U.S. to third world countries for obvious reasons (drug cartels, extreme poverty, and insurgency, for example).

            Let’s compare developed nations:

            According to a compilation of facts by the Washington Post (easily vettable), “The United States has the highest gun ownership rate in the world and the highest per capita rate of firearm-related murders of all developed countries.”

            Google, “Gun homicides and gun ownership by country” and “washington post”. Their source was the UNODC, and Small Arms Survey, Guardian Datablog.

            As for your argument re Democrats, keep in mind that the Democrats have conservatives in their ranks (they used to be mostly conservative and the Republicans were mostly liberal) but the Republicans no longer have any liberals in their ranks.

            So, to be most accurate and honest, you should be arguing conservatives and liberals, not Republicans and Democrats

            Check this out. Most gun related violence/homicides are concentrated in poor communities. The cities you list have a high poverty rate.

            One thing that could relieve a lot of the gun violence is to adopt Bernie Sanders’ agenda of blowing up the money pipeline that runs from corporations to the pockets of politicians, then instituting a minimum wage law that lifts the working poor out of poverty. That, alone, would serve to eliminate much of the frustration and hopelessness that feeds the violence.

            Conservatives conveniently forget, or don’t care, that white society, in general, has suppressed the black population for more than a century after the emancipation.

            After the Civil War–after gaining their “freedom”–they found themselves shackled by white society’s insensitivity and prejudice.

            They were taunted, lampooned, and thrust into a vicious cycle of poverty caused by a lack of education in poorly funded, low quality schools, which positioned them only for the most menial of jobs, which kept them in poverty.

            They were a people emasculated, and even with 10s of decades of social progress, even to the point where a black man would become president of the United States, conservatives continue to fight against every effort to help bring them out of poverty–refusing to force corporations to pay a living wage to their lowest tier workers–and they fight against government assistance that would be largely eliminated were corporations to pay a living wage. It’s an immoral squeeze that only increases the general hopelessness and lack of opportunity.

            So, your argument is a case, as it always is with conservatives, that you pay no attention to, and make no effort to look beneath the glittering surface to discover the root cause of poverty and gun violence. The root cause is e-c-o-n-o-m-i-c!

          • afchief

            Ahhhh Mr. silly liberal, why don’t you leave the facts and truth to us Christian Tea Party Conservatives. Liberalism has proven to be a mental disorder and it is showing up in your posts!!!!

            You might want to read:

            More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime And
            Gun-Control Laws – John Lott Jr. – University Of Chicago Press – 1998

            and:

            The Bias Against Guns: Why Almost Everything
            You’ve Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong – John Lott Jr. – Regnery Publ. – 2003

            It may open your liberal eyes to the truth!!!

            Also, let’s be honest here. If you removed black crime from the statistics, American cities would be nearly crime free. I am not being racist. The FBI statistics bear this out. The FBI reports show a direct correlation between the percentage of the population being black and crime rates. In other words, the more blacks that inhabit an area, the more crime there is. These are the facts. If about 4 large cities were separated from the statistics, the US would truly be a pretty peaceful place.

          • afchief

            Leave the facts and truth to us Christian Tea Party Conservatives. And if you don’t like our 2nd amendment and Constitution, go live in North Korea where no one has a gun.

            Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia — Crime Rate Plummets

            by Chuck Baldwin

            The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia’s ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.

            The city’s population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.

            And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.

            With all the attention that has been heaped upon the lawful possession of firearms lately, you would think that a city that requires gun ownership would be the center of a media feeding frenzy. It isn’t. The fact is I can’t remember a major media outlet even mentioning Kennesaw. Can you?

            The reason is obvious. Kennesaw proves that the presence of firearms actually improves safety and security. This is not the message that the media want us to hear. They want us to believe that guns are evil and are the cause of violence.

            The facts tell a different story. What is even more interesting about Kennesaw is that the city’s crime rate decreased with the simple knowledge that the entire community was armed. The bad guys didn’t force the residents to prove it. Just knowing that residents were armed prompted them to move on to easier targets. Most criminals don’t have a death wish.

            There have been two occasions in my own family when the presence of a handgun averted potential disaster. In both instances the gun was never aimed at a person and no shot was fired.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Okay, if you haven’t understood my position after all my explanations (and you clearly don’t), then go and be happy with your insensitivity, self-centeredness, and intellectual dishonesty, all generated by willful ignorance. No matter what I say or evidence I present, you simply will not discuss it or offer rebuttal.

            Saving lives, especially of children, is a moral issue–and it is an issue for which you appear to possess no morals. Your right to unfettered acquisition of guns trumps even the lives of children.

            Your complete mental blockade of empathy is precisely one of the reasons I left fundamentalist religion years ago and to read your comments is a testament to my correct decision.

            You want a “me” society, and I want a just “we” society. Thus, there is no point in continuing. Your walls of fundamentalism are impenetrable–just as impenetrable as that of ISIS, of Heaven’s Gate and of Jonestown.

            Have a happy, self-centered life.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            And, btw, you can find a very enlightening article on F&F at Fortune (hardly a liberal site). Google “The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal.”

          • afchief

            Only a liberal would believe ANYTHING that comes out of this lying, lawless, anti-american, anti-christian, Muslim traitor, SOB!!!!

            The illegal purpose of “Fast & Furious” was – and is – to “Fly under the (legal) radar” as Obama told Sarah Brady – and totally destroy the 2nd Ammendment and the Right of US Citizens TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS (not to go hunting and target shooting) – King George of England. etc. being an early problemo for early Colonists of America

            Obama and AG Holder blame “Fast and Furious” on President GW Bush’s “Wide Receiver” tracking program that the ATF and BP and FBI were involved in –

            “Fast and Furious” tracked NOTHING – Firearms Dealers in the US were told to illegally sell firearms to Mexican drug cartel for illegal transportation to Mexico

            Who paid for those FIREARMS?

            You did!

            The BATF and FBI gave US Taxpayer’s cash to the firearms dealers

            pResident 0liar invoked executive privilege so Attorney General Eric Holder wouldn’t have to turn over documents on Fast and Furious. That is not what executive privilege was intended for

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            And, BTW, you say I make incorrect assumptions, but you labeled the guy a Muslim without any evidence at all.

          • Mark Bouckaert

            What is more disturbing is that you can buy one without knowledge of proper handling and safety. More people die from accidents due to firearms than deliberate use. A simple course and exam would save so many lives. And what makes it more sad it’s their own loved ones that are maimed and killed.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            Yes, too many have little knowledge of proper handling and safety, but I don’t think that has a lot of relevance. Firearms are very easy to use (and obtain by most anyone).

            If you are saying that more people die of accidental gun discharges than from gun homicides, that isn’t quite right, but it certainly should be addressed.

            According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 11,208 deaths by homicide, 21,175 by suicide with a firearm, 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with “undetermined intent”

            One thing that can be taken from these stats is that mental instability/depression must be addressed as a part of a national background check, as well as the entire issue of mental illness should be one of our top priorities.

        • afchief

          About 67% of firearm murders took place in the country’s 50 largest metro areas. The 62 cities in those metro areas have a firearm murder rate of 9.7, more than twice the national average. Among teenagers the firearm murder rate is 14.6 or almost three times the national average.

          Those are the crowded cities of 0bamerica. Those are the places with the most restrictive gun control laws and the highest crime rates. And many of them have been run by Democrats and their political machines for almost as long as they have been broken.

          0bama won every major city in the election, except for Jacksonville and Salt Lake City. And the higher the death rate, the bigger his victory.

          He won New Orleans by 80 to 17 where the murder rate is ten times higher than the national average. He won Detroit, where the murder rate of 53 per 100,000 people is the second highest in the country and twice as high as any country in the world, including the Congo and South Africa. He won it 73 to 26. And then he celebrated his victory in Chicago where the murder rate is three times the statewide average.

          Mayors of 0bamerican cities blame guns because it’s easier than blaming people and the President of 0bamerica has turned to the same shameless tactic. The NRA counters that people kill people, but that’s exactly why 0bamerican leaders would rather talk about the guns.

          These places aren’t America. They’re 0bamerica.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            There are no depths conservatives will not go to vent your hatred of President Obama and blame him for what conservatives are doing in an effort to shift the subject from their own complete indifference to the suffering of others.

            Too, the ignorance displayed by many (most?) conservatives is palpable. The argument is not Democrats and Republicans, it’s conservatives and liberals/progressives. The Democratic Party has many conservative members but the Republican Party has NO liberals/progressives.

            As well, President Obama has expanded gun rights since he took office. Before, for example, you were restricted from taking your beloved gun to federal parks. You can now do that.

            The face that local or state gun laws do not work is because they are not NATIONAL gun regulations. Duh!

            So, instead of blaming and pointing fingers, if you had an empathetic bone in your body for the mass killing of innocent people (especially children), you would opt for sensible NATIONAL comprehensive background checks–as well, in my opinion, individual gun registration as a means to track the movement of every individual firearm in America, thereby significantly reducing the ability of criminals and the mentally impaired to access them.

            It is unfortunate, however, that so many frightened little people can so easily be convinced that President Obama is just about to come and confiscate their guns and bibles so that he can open the door to his Muslim countrymen to take over America and institute Sharia law.

          • afchief

            Wow! More proof that liberalism truly is a mental disorder! We the People have said we will not allow 0lawless to take away our rights to free speech and freedom of religion, but take a look around you and see what is happening. He is obliterating the first amendment and now he is going after the second. At what point are we the people going to replace the tough talk with action. Are we again going to wait till he has taken our freedoms away before we start to act? Wake up!!!!

            “The Second Amendment is the one amendment, that protects all the other amendments”.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            [Obama] is obliterating the first amendment and now he is going after the second.

            Where is your evidence? Do you really think sensible gun regulations is “going after the second [Amendment]? Really?

            And what is this about the 1st Amendment? You need to elaborate on that. Exactly how is the president taking away your right of free speech?

            At what point are we the people going to replace the tough talk with action.

            What “action” are you suggesting? Armed rebellion against the U.S.? Armed attack on the White House? Personally, I think our FBI should be closely monitoring anyone suggesting such things.

            “The Second Amendment is the one amendment, that protects all the other amendments”.

            Seriously? Why are you so very extreme? Name a time when the government attempted to confiscate guns. You really think they did not because the people would shoot them? Seriously?

          • afchief

            The latest ditty that has the media all in a tizzy is Ben Carson’s statement that if the Germans had not surrendered their firearms a few years earlier The Holocaust probably wouldn’t have happened — or would have been far less severe.

            The number of people who pounced on this is a sad reflection of what our nation and logic — or lack thereof, has become.

            The usual nonsense has been trotted out — that Carson’s remarks disrespected those who died in the Holocaust, and particularly in the Warsaw Ghetto.

            Nonsense.

            It is a fact that in the 30s Germany passed laws essentially disarming the public. The Weimar Republic forced gun registration upon its citizens in 1931. Two years later Hitler came to power via democratic election.

            In 1938 Hitler signed a gun control act, banning Jews from working in the firearms industry and banning .22 caliber hollow-point ammunition (very inexpensive ammunition; exactly what you need if you’re poor.) He ordered Jews to surrender their weapons and of course the police had records of everyone who had registered them. This took place literal weeks before Kristallnacht in November of 1938.

            This is a historical fact and no amount of bull**** spewing from the left will change it.

            The Warsaw Ghetto uprising did indeed fail, but not without some Nazi blood being spilled that otherwise wouldn’t have. The Nazis intended to intern and murder every single Jew present there and but for that uprising they would have succeeded too. As it was they still got most of the Jews, but not all of them, and there was a price, even though the resistance was only able to cobble up a few pistols, improvised grenades and confiscated weapons from the Nazis they killed.

            The bigger problem that Carson pointed out, and which the left does not wish to address because it directly runs with their worldview, is that the people of Germany largely lost before the Nazis killed the first person.

            They lost because they refused to assert their fundamental rights granted not by a government but vested in them by virtue of their being human, exactly as we are doing today.

            Let’s be clear folks — you have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit (but not guarantee) of happiness. You don’t have those rights because a government says so; you have them because you’re human.

            At the core of the problem is a fundamental falsehood that is put forward by those who intend to and through history have enslaved or murdered anyone who they didn’t like: They distort the truth about Rights being negative and instead assert they are positive things.

            The truth is that rights, by any logical analysis, must confer only a protection against someone else doing something; they do not and cannot entitle you to anything.

            To be entitled to something as a positive thing you must be empowered to take it by force from someone else.

            Bluntly it is impossible for everyone to have a positive right because in order for you to have it you must be empowered to deprive someone else of the same thing, which means they cannot also have it.

            In other words as soon as you declare a positive right you are claiming a superiority over other people.

            You’re not claiming to be equal, you’re claiming to be better, above or more and everyone else is less.

            It’s what neither the Republican or Democrat party wishes to put upon the table yet we must because our nation is literally disintegrating around us due to this intentional act of deception by those in power and your foolish buy-in to same.

            Let us remember history — our history right here in what is now called The United States.

            Just before this nation was founded it was, of course, a British colony. The British attempted to run this same nonsense that we have going on today; if you’re just good to the King, and his minions, all will be ok.

            Except, of course, that it wasn’t for the very same reason it isn’t now. For some people to have positive rights others had to be forced to provide what they wanted and if you tried to refuse what they wanted would be extracted at gunpoint. The insults were many and varied but as a whole they added up to far less than we tolerate right here and now from our current government.

            One example was the Stamp Act, which decreed that you had to have a license to practice virtually any sort of commerce. Said Stamp had to be paid for in British Currency, of course, yet the colonists were prohibited from issuing it (since they were a colony and not Britain proper.) Today you must buy a “stamp” to practice virtually any business; the police actually threaten to arrest children for running a lemonade stand without one.

            When the people got upset enough to protest against the various declarations of the Crown loudly, and the government of Britain felt threatened, what did it do? It attempted to seize powder and ball from the colonial storage depots.

            Without ammunition (powder and balls) a musket is a club.

            It was in fact those seizure attempts that ultimately led to the American Revolution; this nation exists because the colonists refused to be disarmed.

            Get that through your head folks because it is indisputable: But for the colonists insistence on the ability not to take life from others but to prevent others from trying to take theirs and to keep and bear the means of enforcing that negative right against encroachment there would be no such nation as The United States of America.

            This point of order is not an anachronism. It is not an accident. It was an intentional assertion by first dozens and then thousands of men who took up arms but refused to fire until fired upon. However, they also refused to allow the British to confiscate their ball and powder, and demanded that those agents of the government who were trying to do so cease and desist including forcing an entire town’s judiciary that was assisting the British in their efforts to resign their offices. And yes, the colonists had guns with them when they enforced that demand — but not one shot was fired.

            Would history be different if the German people had refused to surrender their arms to the government? I don’t know. Nobody does. But certainly the Nazis wouldn’t have been able to simply herd people into boxcars and then into the showers where they were gassed if the people had the means of effective resistance and, at least as importantly, a view of rights as negative things that are unalienable.

            Oh sure, many would have died resisting violence with violence.

            Many did die in Colonial America.

            But consider this folks — would you rather die defending your life against the Nazis or in a “shower” filled with poison gas?

            What the various screamers on both the left and right have quite successfully put forward over the last number of decades is that you have positive rights rather than negative ones. That is, you have a right to housing, to food, to medical care or even a job. The Nazis came to power under the exact same set of promises after the failures of Weimar.

            Note that none of these alleged “rights” can be fulfilled unless you can take them from someone else who may not be willing to give them to you and that by definition means you must delegate to some people the right to use force offensivelyagainst other humans for the mere reason that they possess something you claim to have the right to take from them.

            That’s a crock folks, but it is at the core of what ails this nation and is at the core of the so-called “gun control” argument.

            We have a Representative Republic called The United States of America.

            It exists because the founders emphatically refused to take up what you believe and they also refused to be disarmed, risking their lives by being willing to level a musket at British regulars when faced with the exact argument you are putting forward today.

            You are welcome to disrespect this nation, its history and its founders. In fact, you can publicly urinate on all of them, and anyone putting forward an argument for either gun control or positive rights does so every day.

            You are free to disrespect all of the above because those men died; that’s what the First Amendment guarantees, and it didn’t get passed without the founders first putting their lives on the line because they believed in it to a sufficient degree to risk death in order to see it enforced.

            But before you whizz on the founders and what they gave us you ought to think about how this nation came about, why it’s unique among nations, what principles led to the formation of this nation and what you are risking when you disrespect and throw in the trash the lessons taught by those who put their lives on the line to create America.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            The latest ditty that has the media all in a tizzy is Ben Carson’s statement that if the Germans had not surrendered their firearms a few years earlier The Holocaust probably wouldn’t have happened — or would have been far less severe.

            The number of people who pounced on this is a sad reflection of what our nation and logic — or lack thereof, has become.

            Obviously you didn’t bother to actually check into what historians are saying, or you did but are being deceitful–as the right wing is very prone to do.

            It was the Weimar Republic, the German government that immediately preceded Hitler’s, that in 1919 banned all private ownership of guns. Hitler actually killed that law for all non-Jews and other politically-persecuted groups. The German people as a whole, were unrestricted.

            It is a fact that in the 30s Germany passed laws essentially disarming the public.

            Completely false. Please, please, do your homework. You are being mislead (to give you the benefit of the doubt). Stop following and parroting the usual conservative/NRA propaganda and read the findings of real historians. It’s amazingly easy to find on unbiased websites.

            Here was the sequence of gun laws in Germany following the Weimar Republic’s defeat in 1918 (end of WWI):

            1919 – The Weimar Republic passes the Regulations on Weapons Ownership law, which banned all firearms and ammunition. Anyone found in possession of a firearm or ammunition was subject to five years imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 marks.

            1920 – Fear of a rebellion by the its citizens because of the extremity of the 1919 law, the government the government enacted a second gun regulation law called the Law on the Disarmament of the People. relaxing the previous law to a degree, but still imposed the demands of the Versailles Treaty on the limitation of military weapons.

            1928 – The conservatives, in fear of losing power to the communists, passed the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, which essentially revoked the 1919 law, giving the citizens free access to firearms (purchase, sell, carry, and/or manufacture), but added that each weapon must be registered (which I think is a good thing because it does not transgress on the 2nd Amendment but allows the tracking of each gun much like that of a vehicle). The law, however, still banned Jews and other “undesirable” groups from firearm ownership.

            1938 – (Hitler’s Germany) passed the Law on Firearms and Ammunition that completely lifted all restrictions on the ownership and carrying of rifles and ammo, but for handguns, permits must be possessed to purchase and carry. “Undesirable” groups were still denied possession. There were some exceptions, e.g., members of the Nazi Party were completely unrestricted–unfettered access.

            1938 – New legislation was passed (Regulations Against Jews’ Possession of Weapons) which banned all Jews from the ownership of ANY weapon–including knives.

            Google these laws and the article: “On Gun Registration, the NRA, Adolf Hitler, and Nazi Gun Laws: Exploding the Gun Culture Wars
            (A Call to Historians) by Bernard E. Harcourt,” Professor of Law, University of Chicago.

          • afchief

            Wow! Another product of our indoctrination centers we call public schools. What I said is completely TRUE!!!! I have researched it and it happened exactly as I said it!!!!!!!

            October 14, 2015
            The study published by Harvard that gun-grabbers fear
            By Thomas Lifson

            A truly amazing study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy debunks just about every argument of the gun-grabbers. No wonder the media have managed to ignore it ever since it was published in 2007. But Beliefnet (hat tip: Instapundit) summarizes its findings, and they confirm what gun owners know and gun-grabbers can’t bear to learn:

            The popular assertion that the United States has the industrialized world’s highest murder rate, says the Harvard study, is a throwback to the Cold War when Russian murder rates were nearly four times higher than American rates. In a strategic disinformation campaign, the U.S. was painted worldwide as a gunslinging nightmare of street violence – far worse than what was going on in Russia. The line was repeated so many times that many believed it to be true. Now, many still do.

            Today violence continues in Russia – far worse than in the U.S. – although the Russian people remain virtually disarmed. “Similar murder rates also characterize the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and various other now-independent European nations of the former U.S.S.R.,” note Kates and Mauser . Kates is a Yale-educated criminologist and constitutional lawyer. Dr. Mauser is a Canadian criminologist at Simon Fraser University with a Ph.D. from the University of California Irvine. “International evidence and comparisons have long been offered as proof of the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths. Unfortunately, such discussions are all too often been afflicted by misconceptions and factual error.”

            By the early 1990s, Russia’s murder rate was three times higher than that of the United States. Thus, “in the United States and the former Soviet Union transitioning into current-day Russia,” say Kates and Mauser, “homicide results suggest that where guns are scarce, other weapons are substituted in killings.”

            The impact of Soviet disinformation amplified by American media acting as co-conspirators continues unto today.

            Then there is this:

            When Kates and Mauser compared England with the United States, they found “’a negative correlation,’ that is, ‘where firearms are most dense violent crime rates are lowest, and where guns are least dense, violent crime rates are highest.’ There is no consistent significant positive association between gun ownership levels and violence rates.”

            In 2004, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences released an evaluation from its review of existing research. After reviewing 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and its own original empirical research, it failed to identify any gun control that had reduced violent crime, suicide, or gun accidents, note Kates and Mauser. (snip)

            Somehow, it goes unreported that “despite constant and substantially increasing gun ownership, the United States saw progressive and dramatic reductions in criminal violence,” write Kates and Mauser. “On the other hand, the same time period in the United Kingdom saw a constant and dramatic increase in violent crime to which England’s response was ever-more drastic gun control. Nevertheless, criminal violence rampantly increased so that by 2000 England surpassed the United States to become one of the developed world’s most violence-ridden nations.

          • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

            “Gun grabbers?” Man, are you radical or what?

            You will have to give me the ORIGINAL

          • afchief

            November 20, 2013
            Gun Control, the Jews, and the Third Reich
            By Abraham H. Miller

            In 1996, in commemoration of the one hundredth anniversary of the modern Olympics, the German government issued a set of four stamps. One of these celebrates Alfred and Gustav Flatow, cousins, who were gold medalists in the 1896 Olympics. Alfred took the first in the parallel bars and with his cousin also won gold for the German team’s overall performance.

            In 1932, Alfred Flatow registered three handguns, as decreed by the harsh gun control laws of the Weimar Republic that were drawn amid the violence and chaos of the aftermath of World War I. The Weimar Republican grew out of the ashes of the Great War. Perceived as an institution imposed by Germany’s enemies, Weimar lacked political legitimacy and was vulnerable to insurrection.

            The first assault on the Republic, however, came not from the right but from the communist left. Under the leadership of Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht, the German Communists attempted to overthrow the government by armed struggle. The fragile government mobilized the Freikorps, undisciplined militias composed largely of veterans. The Freikorps brutally put down the communist insurrection and murdered its leaders. The Communists had also seized the government in Bavaria and the Freikorps succeeded in vanquishing them.

            Hoping to stem further attacks on the state, the liberal Weimar Republic imposed Draconian gun control laws that made it punishable by death to carry a gun. The brutal and undisciplined Freikorps were given the task of enforcing these laws and did so with alacrity, even murdering nurses who carried firearms for protection against rape amid the post-war chaos.

            The Weimar Ministry of the Interior made gun registration mandatory. The overall intention of the gun control laws was to disarm those who were making war against the state and each other. Inspired by gangster violence in Chicago, the Nazis and the Communists loaded up cars with thugs armed with Tommy guns and invaded each other’s neighborhoods.

            Like most attempts at gun control, the policy failed. Neither the Nazis nor the Communists gave up their guns, but law-abiding citizens like Alfred Flatow did and bore the consequences. Although the Weimar Ministry of the Interior worked to assure registrants that their information would remain safe, this proved to be an empty promise. When the Nazis took over in 1933, the information was culled for registrants who were deemed “enemies of the state,” a euphemism for Jews, communists, and other political opponents.

            Gestapo legal adviser Werner Best proposed to execute Jews who were found in possession of firearms. He had both ample precedent and experience to draw upon from the harsh gun laws and their brutal enforcement in the Weimar Republic.

            In 1938, in preparation for Kristallnacht (November 9-10, 1938), the Gestapo used the Weimar gun registration records to disarm Jews and focused on Jewish gun owners for deportation to concentration camps. Alfred Flatow fled Germany for the Netherlands, but when the Nazis invaded the Netherlands, in May 1940, Flatow was on the Gestapo’s list.

            Flatow was arrested and sent to Theresienstadt Concentration Camp, where he died from starvation on December 28, 1942. His cousin Gustav died in the same camp three years later.

            Throughout their conquest of Europe, the Nazis encountered armed resistance by those who refused to accept defeat. Even the pitifully armed Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto put up meaningful resistance, as did the Jewish Bielski partisans in the forests of Byelorussia and Poland. Among the conquered people of Europe, where there were arms and munitions there were partisans who continued to fight.

            Only in Germany was there no armed resistance, other than what came from the military. Would armed resistance on German soil have made a difference? No one can answer that with any certainty, but clearly it was a formidable concern for Werner Best and his Gestapo henchmen. Without arms there was no hope of meaningful resistance.

            The issue of an armed populace resisting tyranny is why the Second Amendment exists. It was not written to promote hunting or target shooting. It was written to keep a check on tyrants both foreign and domestic.

            A new book, Gun Control in the Third Reich, analyzes the manner in which the Nazis capitalized on the strict gun control policies of the Weimar Republic and used those policies to consolidate power and render the political opposition defenseless and the Jews hopeless.

            It is far too facile to dismiss any comparison between the rise of Hitler and a threat from analogous policies in a viable democracy. As scholar Stephen P. Halbrook notes, historians have failed to see gun-control policies as the prelude to the rise of tyranny, even in Nazi Germany.

            The Weimar Republic, despite problems in legitimacy and economic strangulation by the victors of World War I, was a struggling democracy with liberal principles. Its leaders thought that their policies of gun control would end the street violence between radical groups and promote political stability. The Weimar ministers did not comprehend that their gun control policies would pave the way for tyrants to direct and remove the political opposition.

            Hitler came to power without ever winning a majority vote. His own electoral results paled in comparison to those garnered by President Paul von Hindenburg, and the Nazi party itself never received more than 37% of the vote. In the last free and fair German parliamentary elections of November, 1932, the Nazis actually lost 34 seats. Through orchestrated chaos and the incompetence of others, Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany. He stayed in power by eliminating future elections and preventing armed struggle against the regime. The fragile democracy of the Weimar Republic had created a tyrant, who now abused the pledge Weimar had made on the secrecy of gun registration.

            Any real analysis of the rise of the Third Reich should contribute to our own debate over gun control, but of course, that is a pipe dream. When it comes to guns, the lines are tightly drawn. If you are among those who believe that you do not need a gun and no one else should have one, then there really is no room for debate. In this country, John Lott, Jr., through decades of exhausting empirical research, has shown that guns save lives. Yet, Lott’s work hardly gets mentioned in the policy debate.

            Jews, who should look at the Battle of the Warsaw Ghetto and understand the value of resistance for the sake of preserving the dignity of the human spirit, are all too prone to utter the fatalistic Yiddish adage that translates as — if it comes to this, nothing will help. In other words, when I will need a gun it will not do any good.

            Such sentiments, in the light of Jewish history, are appalling, as are the attitudes that liberal Jews generally bring to the gun control debate. I am reminded of my great aunt Sifra, who stood nearly six feet tall and fought with the Bielski partisans. She died fighting; it was a noble death. She died a warrior’s death, not an anonymous death as a nameless, faceless victim. That is what separates a hero from a victim. That is the difference a gun makes.

  • The Truth

    It was the inevitable result of intolerance against Christians.

    • http://thebenevolentthou.com/ Max T. Furr

      The intolerance of perhaps 1 in every 50 million Americans. Let’s get the proportions just a bit more realistic in order to stifle the counter-hatred. There are, in fact, Americans who have killed in the name of Jesus.

  • Bertha Warren

    I am Believer of Christ Jesus, I have counted the cost of following Jesus. The Early Church was kill because Love of Christ. Shall Jesus carry the Cross alone, there is cross for all believers. Jesus said, we will be prescuted for His name sake.

  • Rachel Adams

    Those killed in this senseless act of hate will be mourned properly! No insults or opinions necessary! Very young brave college students died for their Faith and will be remembered always! Those who die for their faith in Yeshua will rein and rule with Jesus during the 1000 years of peace! People are being killed every day around this evil world and make no mistake Yeshua is coming soon! The most important thing to remember no matter how upsetting this is, just pray for the victims their families and all affected because of this. Jesus expects as his followers that we pray and encourage eachother. God bless everyone.

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      Amen. God bless you as well.I do believe Yeshua will come soon.

  • SoundMind

    SUCH MASSACRES OF CHRISTIANS will not let up as long as schools are designated as “gun free zones.” Parents who love their children will pull them from any school whose officials refuse to arm themselves in order to protect students.

    • Kena

      I agree, the civil authority is charged with the protection of it’s citizens. However on private property the owners may demand a no weapon policy and when we decide to attend an event on their property we cannot defend ourselves with a weapon.

      The way to change their policies is to have a national boycott of any and all business which deploy a no weapon policy or a gun free zone. I live out in the country and most people here hunt so they carry their guns in their vehicles. Some folks walk around with large hunting knives strapped to their belts. People here do not feel threatened by seeing these things. In fact we know that if someone starts shooting his spree will be cut short by one of the good guys with a gun or knife.

      Blessings,
      Kenny

      • SoundMind

        Thank you for your reply, Kenny. You are fortunate to live in an area where citizens value their rights and their lives.

        I hope citizens of our republic will once again assert themselves and shoulder the burden of self protection as they do where you live. In my view, it is unwise that parents turn over their most precious possessions–their children–to those unwilling to take measures necessary to assure their safety.

        Regarding businesses that have determined to deny constitutional rights by declaring themselves as gun free zones, I myself do not patronize them. By not allowing their customers the option to protect themselves, they practically invite criminals to come inside without opposition.

        I carry my concealed weapon everywhere nowadays, something that was inconceivable to me a few short years ago. But the days are becoming more lawless, as predicted in the Bible.

        • Kena

          I have seen many people now carrying who a few years ago would not have considered it. The nation is simply unsafe nowadays and people are aggressive and combative. It’s a spiritual problem that we have not seen before, there is no unity. In fact it has covered the globe and we are sure to see global war soon unless God performs a miracle to change things.

          Be safe.

          • SoundMind

            You, too, Kenny… for the love of many has grown cold…. brrrrrr

          • Kena

            I’ll pray for you Sister.

          • SoundMind

            All RIGHT, Saint Kenny! If you care to reveal, tell me something I can pray about on your behalf. I always pray specifically; for instance, that my water heater will startup okay… Hey, if God spends his time revising the count of the hairs on my head after one falls out, then he’s concerned about the little things as well as the big ones, don’t you think? 🙂

          • Kena

            lol, yep, God cares.

            I have some health issues (many) that are keeping me from working. I would really like to get back to work. Either a job or ministering to the Saints. Whatever God would choose for me though I have a preference to working for the Saints.

            Blessings,
            Kenny

          • SoundMind

            Done!

          • Kena

            Thanks Sister. 🙂

          • Kena

            You know, I forgot that I applied for disability about three years ago. My memory is one of my health problems (I used to be an engineer but lost much of my memories). Anyway if you could pray for God to give me my disability that would be good.

            Would you like for me to pray for you about anything?

          • MamaBear

            I’ll pray, too.
            I had a hard time getting my disability, and according to the SS website, they are supposed to “compassionately” fast track my particular condition. I finally had to use a lawyer, but I got back pay on the disability. (Lawyer took a percent of the back pay, I did not have to pay up front.) Once you get disability, you can also get Medicare to help with medical bills.

          • SoundMind

            I did as you requested, plus asked God to restore some of your happy memories. And, yes, please and thank you, I am trying to sell my house. G’nite Kenny. I pray God’s blessings towards you are Overflowing 🙂

          • Ax2root

            Charles Capp started speaking over his land thanking the Lord that it was sold in Jesus name 🙂

            I enjoy his ministry even though he has passed….have you heard him Soundmind.?

            Good to see your WATCHMAN ON THE WALL postings!

          • SoundMind

            That’d be some mighty positive thinking, Ax. Thanks for the reminder of how Faith operates … and thrives when applied.
            No, I haven’t heard Charles Capp but now recall you once mentioned him. For some reason I think of a comic strip? No offense.

          • Ax2root

            Yes hahaha ..same name…I think of it too.

            Charles Capps was an old religious defeated poor farmer who got spirit filled and Lord led to preach about faith.

            He is a simple powerful teacher.

          • afchief

            Is this the same SoundMind who posts on Charisma? Have you been banned there too?

          • SoundMind

            God’s cleansing process can relieve one of the burden that causes envy, slander and gossip.

          • afchief

            Yes, but that was not my question.

  • respectourdifferences

    Truly heinous.

  • Emmanuel

    Notice that the atheists and the ungodly are not saying a word. So they approve. Get ready, this is just the start. They want more.