‘Pope Francis’ Leads Philadelphia in Prayer to Mary and Joseph to ‘Protect Families’

Prayer PopePHILADELPHIA — During his final remarks at the Festival of Families in Philadelphia, the Roman Catholic pontiff Jorge Bergoglio, known as “Pope Francis,” led the thousands in attendance in a prayer to Mary and Joseph out of his belief that the former earthly parents of Christ serve as protectors of families in the present.

“Before the final blessing, let’s pray a prayer to Mary and also an invocation to Saint Joseph, so that they can protect our families and they can help us to believe that it’s worth the struggle and the fight for the good of the family,” he said at the conclusion of the event, which included song and dance from various musical celebrities, as well as speeches from Catholic families from around the world.

Francis then led the crowd in the “Hail Mary,” who recited the common prayer with him.

“Hail Mary, full of grace, our Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus,” he prayed. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

The Roman Catholic leader immediately followed the prayer with an invocation to Joseph.

“Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us. Saint Joseph, pray for us,” he repeated three times. “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

The event also featured a reading by Gianna Emanuela Molla, the daughter of Gianna Beretta Molla, who was canonized as a saint following her death in 2004 and was proclaimed to be the “patron saint” of the World Meeting of Families. According to reports, “women pray to St. Gianna to intercede in difficult pregnancies or with fertility issues, or to solve family crises.”

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But Mike Gendron of Proclaiming the Gospel Ministries in Plano, Texas, a former Roman Catholic who now leads an evangelistic ministry to reach Catholics, told Christian News Network that the practice of praying to any deceased person is unbiblical.

“The pope would do well to study the truth of God’s word so that he will stop deceiving people. For him to ask people to pray to Mary and Joseph, who are physically dead, is an abomination to the Lord,” he said, pointing to Deuteronomy 18:11-12, which forbids communicating with the dead.

Gendron outlined that it is furthermore not necessary to ask any deceased person to pray for them when the Scriptures outline that men must pray to the Father in the name of Jesus.

“Nowhere in Scripture do we see any God-fearing man praying to anyone other than God,” he explained. “The Lord Jesus taught us how to pray in Mat. 6:6-7. He said, ‘[P]ray to your Father … and when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.”

“Paul also made it clear how to pray when he wrote to the Church. He said, “[B]y prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God,” Gendron continued, pointing to Philippians 4:6.

He said that he hopes the pontiff will place truth over tradition.

“Francis would do well to heed the warning of Peter, whom he thinks was the first pope. Peter said, the Lord is against those who do evil—which would include consulting the dead—but His ears are open to the prayers of the righteous,” Gendron stated.

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  • http://rapture-resource.org/ Terry

    It’s so sad that someone would pray to the dead when God Himself forbids it, the pope is leading people straight to hell with him.

    • Oboehner

      The pope thinks he is God.

      • Valri

        No he doesn’t. That’s stupid.

        • Oboehner

          Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

          “The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God.” -Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary

          • Valri

            1.) We are not told who this Fr. A. Pereira is, or whether he was even an actual priest or whether his statement (if he did exist or did make that statement) actually happened. We’re just made to take it at face value.

            2.) Pope Gregory XIII’s edition of the Canon Law was published in 1582.

            3.) The gloss does not appear even in this edition of the Canon Law.

            4.) If someone were to write a false statement in relation to another written work, how does that affect the truth?

            Since the advent of Protestantism there have been a large number of false, misleading, or misrepresented quotes regarding the pope in Protestant circles. This is what you are encountering. The latter a fine example.

          • Oboehner

            “Pope Gregory XIII’s edition of the Canon Law was published in 1582.”
            God never changes, why does the church keep changing? How could the supposedly infallible pope write a false statement?
            The RCC is little more than redressed paganism.

          • Valri

            The church changes because the world changes. I know you miss the days of slavery and hanging blacks and homosexuals, but these days people are a little more refined and civil towards one another.

          • Oboehner

            “The church changes because the world changes.” Then it is a false church as God NEVER changes neither would HIS church.
            Hanging blacks, seriously? Desperation straw man at it’s finest.

          • Valri

            “Then it is a false church as God NEVER changes neither would HIS church.”

            In order to make a statement like that, you’d have to know the nature of God in the first place, which you clearly don’t.

            “Hanging blacks, seriously? Desperation straw man at it’s finest.”

            That was based on your previous statements here, not this particular exchange.

          • Oboehner

            The nature of God is clearly stated in his word – which never changes.
            Do tell when I have ever said anything about wanting to hang blacks or stop bearing false witness as the Word of God also clearly states not to do. Too bad catholics worship mary and the pope and ignore God’s own words.

          • Valri

            You have said such things here.

            And saying Catholics worship Mary and the Pope – well, that’s a lie right there, and you know it. Find me a Catholic who turns to Mary for salvation. Find me ONE.

            Your goal here isn’t Christianity. It’s hatred.

          • Oboehner

            “The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: That we obtain everything through Mary.” Pope Pius IX

          • Valri

            So what?

            “Here’s what the Bible says, Leviticus 20:13, ‘If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.’ And that, my friend, is the cure for AIDS. It was right there in the Bible all along. Because if you executed the homos, like God recommends, you wouldn’t have all this AIDS running rampant,”

            –Fundamentalist Christian pastor Steven Anderson

          • Oboehner

            Am I defending Anderson like you are defending the RCC? I don’t think so, try again. I will however defend the Bible.

      • Martin Gran

        Your opinion is nothing but that, your opinion.

        • Oboehner

          And that of the church, these words appeared in the Roman Canon Law: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.-I?i the Gloss “Extravagantes” o.f Pope John XXII Cum inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685.

    • Mark Bouckaert

      I’ve read the passages and grew up a Catholic so I understand both sides of this argument. What I NEVER could understand is why you would WANT to pray to anyone other than Jesus or GOD. What’s accomplished by this? Of course, their response is that miracles can come from Saints but where in fact, the miracle was always the direct effect of God itself. God, either permitted the miracle or performed it themselves…

      Having said that, it makes for good tv, Supernatural I always liked.

    • Tyler Mitchell

      You’re asking a pagan religion to follow things God forbids?That is what catholicism does best!You’re talking about a religion that calls a man in bath robs “holy father”/

    • Peter Leh

      praying to the dead does not send one to hell…

      • Josey

        It is Necromancy, black magic arts, and God does consider it an abomination. This is just one scripture reference from old testament: Deuteronomy 18:9-12 “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.And one scripture reference from the New Testament: Revelation 21:8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” And sin leads one to hell and needs to be repented of which means to do away with, change ones mind about the sin and ask God’s forgiveness which is offered through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son. If Catholic’s for example are taught to pray to the dead they are committing an abomination before God, they are deceived into it and see nothing wrong with it but none the less it is sin and they need forgiveness for it and cleansed and there are a lot of black arts mixed in with Christian beliefs that the Catholics follow, they will not enter God’s kingdom unless they repent and find Christ Jesus and follow His ways that He taught in which they need to read and learn of Him from the Bible.

        • Mark Bouckaert

          You do have a point without a doubt. I’ve learned to look at it as a focused prayer of what they think the memory of the Saint was. Its definitely not malicious nor are they worshiping the Saints. They are simply directing the prayer to God in the memory of what a former great person has achieved in the past… but I say pray to God. Sure, think about their lives from the past but praying to them for strength… well, I don’t get it.

        • Peter Leh

          I agree with what you have written… but the catholics i know do not practice what you have written. There is logic to their explanation and again is not what you have described. (not saying i agree btw)

          and believe you me.. IF incorrect worship send us to hell which of these chrisitans are going: Pentecostal, Lutheran, or a Southern Baptist?

          None worship the same… all worship different. They can’t all be right if correct worship is the deciding factor of heaven and hell

          No, praying to the “dead” still does not send one to hell. Rejecting the HS is the only reference you can find in scriptures that will.

    • Valri

      They DON’T pray to the dead. If you think Mary and every other saint is dead and not alive in Heaven, what hope is there for the rest of us?

      • EC

        My Sister the Bible clearly says that Jesus is the first rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of God. But EVERYONE else will be resurrected at the sametime. That means Mary and everyone else all recieve the gift of eternal life at the same time we do.

        • EC

          We have hope of eternal life because Jesus died and rose for our sin. Mary is not the meaning of our hope.

  • Peter Leh

    Intercessory prayer is what catholics believe in. It is NOT idol worship.

    Well ok…. if you must. I just go straight to the savior as the veil was torn and ALL may enter into the holy of holies.

    • Laurel Salviulo

      oh yes it is but then most catholics are so brainwashed they are afraid to read the bible .all who are saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and who have accepted Him Jesus as the one true saviour are saints and are to turn away from false teachings and the only intercessor in the Bible is the Lord himself… catholic church is big business not God

      • Peter Leh

        “oh yes it is but then most catholics are so brainwashed they are afraid to read the bible”

        catholic are not praying to a deity… that would be idolatrous. They are asking for intersession to the Son from others in heaven.

        “catholic church is big business not God”

        can;t disagree… as is many american protestant churches.

      • Jim H

        “catholic church is big business”
        Joel Olsteen, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, etc. are not?.

        • Fallenman4Jesus

          And any true, born again, bible-believing follower of Jesus knows these that you named are false prophets, wolves in sheep’s clothing who will pay a higher price for their heresy.

          • Jim H

            That’s fine but Protestant like to throw stones when they have their own share of glass houses.

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            I am not a protestant, that would mean I give some recognition to the roman catholic church as a true church and that I just disagree with them. I am a born-again, bible-believing, follower of Jesus Christ who desires to shine the light on the error of the roman catholic church.

          • bret

            Well the way I see it….your gonna have one whale of an electric bill trying to shine enough light to cover all the errors of the Roman Catholic Church.

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            Fortunately, Jesus is the Light – not the ‘bringer of the light’ as the pope says. His light shines brighter than the sun!

          • Martin Gran

            You are nothing but but a self righteous, non-Christian like hateful PROTESTANT that has a very dark soul!

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            That sounds like a lot of hate right there…

          • Martin Gran

            Hate? No. Disgust? Yes. Disgust for these hateful protestants who do not know a thing about the Catholic Church let alone the Bible.

          • Jim H

            Just saying you are not a Protestant doesn’t make it so. If you believe in the solas; sola fide, sola gratis, sola scriptura; i.e., faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone, you are a Protestant.

            The fact that you deny the historical facts concerning the development and diversification of Christian belief doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Anymore than anti-Semites denying the holocaust means it didn’t happen.

            You claim to believe in the bible alone, but doubtless rely on all sorts of Church traditions and traditional understanding of doctrine.

            For example, I assume you accept the trinity, but the word “Trinity” does not appear anywhere in the Bible. In fact, the word Trinity did not come into common use as a religious term until centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed. The doctrine of the trinity was the result of Church councils.

            Take a look at this admission in the New Bible Dictionary:

            “The term ‘Trinity’ is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries” (1996, “Trinity”).

            That same source goes on to explain that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is . . . To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity.” However, it wasn’t until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed” (ibid.).

          • Valri

            I don’t have a problem with Christians. I have a problem with people who call themselves “Bible-believing followers of Jesus” because EVERY Christian is a Bible believing follower of Jesus. You are just trying to spread discord and keep Christians from being united. It’s hate.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          And all of these men (women) bow to and uplift the Pope. Not a church on earth can match the wealth of Rome. Not one.

          • Jim H

            An estimated three dozen spiritual leaders from across America recently met with Donald Trump for over two hours at his Trump Towers, providing advice, praying, laying hands on him, etc. Those in attendance included a number of nationally-recognized televangelists and preachers, including Kenneth Copeland, Jan Crouch and Paula White, as well as TBN regulars Jentezen Franklin, Steve Munsey and Clarence McClendon.
            So, is only Catholic wealth a bad thing?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Trump’s wealth is pocket change as to that which is owned by the RCC.

          • Jim H

            The RCC has had about 1700 years to work on it, so they have a big head start. He might catch up if he could live that long.

      • Valri

        “Afraid to read the Bible”

        Yet another who doesn’t even realize that the Bible was CANONIZED by the Catholic church.

    • Fallenman4Jesus

      The Holy Bible is clear, if you pray to anyone other that God, then you are worshipping an idol. Try and justify all you want, if you pray to Mary or Joseph or any other human then it is idolatry. You can pray as an intercessor, but you can pray to Mary to intercede cause she is dead and doesn’t hear it anyway. Like I asked my mother, who clings to the roman catholic ‘traditions’, you believe that you must go through Mary to get to Jesus, like the Lord is some ogor and needs his mother so soften him up. Just more evidence that you worship a different Jesus than biblical Jesus.

      • Peter Leh

        “The Holy Bible is clear, if you pray to anyone other that God, then you
        are worshipping an idol. Try and justify all you want, if you pray to
        Mary or Joseph or any other human then it is idolatry.”

        Wait, so is it praying to another God or human? which is it?

        Intersession is not the same a praying. It is a go between. (not that i agree)

        “Like I asked my mother, who clings to the roman catholic ‘traditions’,
        you believe that you must go through Mary to get to Jesus, like the Lord
        is some ogor and needs his mother so soften him up. Just more evidence
        that you worship a different Jesus than biblical Jesus.”

        Especially when Christ said “come to me.” I don;t like bullies… and any church or person that says they are in control of me i reject flat out. Accountable? that is ok. In control? Hell no. been there done that.

        You can have the church, i’ll take Jesus. 🙂

        That said i go back to the tradition of praying to the saints. There is no worship going on as i now understand it. But why waste my time when i can go straight into the holy of holies with a “face to face” discussion with my creator god?

      • Valri

        THEY DON’T PRAY TO MARY. They ASK Mary to pray for THEM.

        • Peter Leh

          and there is a difference.

          Being conservative christian myself (not catholic at all). I have many times ask Jesus to say hello to my dad. Why? Because i know he is with Jesus.

          NOW, the bible does not say jesus forwards communications to others….. but the bible also does not say he won’t. 🙂

          I don’t care if i am wrong or right nor do i share this with others as a matter of doctrine. But is think it shows the faith i have in who my father was/ is and faith in who my god is and faith in where i am going to be, in person, in the future. 🙂

        • Chrissy Vee

          hahahahahahahahahahahasha! Phew! That’s the best one I have heard…. ever! Thanks! 😀

          • Valri

            Amused to death and full of hate. Such a role model.

          • Chrissy Vee

            It’s ironic that someone who spews out such blatant hatred deems people with wisdom and knowledge as being hateful. Do you even read the things you write? You are an uninformed idol worshiper with no wisdom, knowledge or understanding of the Christian walk. You may call what I say hatred. I call it truth. If you can’t handle it, don’t dish it. What kin d of “role model” do you think YOU are?

          • Chrissy Vee

            P.S. I do not wish to do this with you anymore. It’s vexing and wastes my time. Any further comments from you will be ignored and unanswered from this point on. May the Lord have mercy and open your eyes to the truth. Amen.

          • Valri

            Read a book about Catholicism sometime. It’ll cure your hysteria as well as your arrogance.

          • Chrissy Vee

            Well, it didn’t cure yours now, did it? I’ll pass.

        • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

          But Mary is dead. How can a dead person pray for someone? The dead praise NOT the Lord. You can pray to God yourself.

          • Valri

            Well, Catholics believe Mary is NOT dead but alive in heaven. Catholics DO pray to God.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            Then how is it that King David is in a grave…but Mary is not? Is she like sinless or something?

          • Martin Gran

            Mary was born sinless and yes she is sinless. As the mother of God she has to be sinless.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            If Mary was sinless then why did she need a Saviour?

            Luke 1:47, “And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour.”

          • Martin Gran

            Mary was speaking for all of man kind.

          • Chrissy Vee

            She is not the mother of God. She is Jesus’ mother, the Son of God and man. She called God her Saviour, proving she was certainly not sinless. Jesus was the only perfect, sinless person to walk this earth. Do not take away His glory, honor and ultimate sacrifice and give it to a mortal, imperfect woman. You have been mightily deceived. Jesus did not die on the cross for people to worship and honor Mary. May the Lord have mercy on you and reveal the truth to you.

          • Valri

            What, you think only Mary went to heaven?

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            My Bible says Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Moses, and the 24 elders that rose with Jesus are in heaven. No one else. All of (dead) man kind are in the graves awaiting the resurrection.

          • Valri

            Most Christian churches disagree with you. Every time I go to a funeral the priest or pastor talks about the deceased being with God now.

          • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

            So you take the word of a pastor of priest as if they can make the judgement of who goes to heaven or hell? They ALWAYS preach the deceased into heaven for the comfort of the family, even though the Word of God clearly says otherwise.

          • Valri

            Well they’re not all laying around in graves waiting to be “taken up” at the same time, that’s daft.

        • Fallenman4Jesus

          Mary can’t hear you. That’s the difference. Why would you ask Mary anyway when you can go straight to God? Ridiculous.

          • Valri

            Too bad the bulk of Christianity disagrees with you huh? They believe Mary’s alive and in heaven. Why would you ask Mary? Because Catholics believe she is in a favored position to ask. And Catholics DO God straight to God AS WELL. But you’re so busy pigeonholing them as something they aren’t.

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            How is it, then that the rich man who was in Hades could speak to Abraham in Heaven? It is not necromancy as some would have it since we do not “communicate” with the dead. We believe that they hear us but we never seek to hear from beyond the grave.

            The issue is not “praying to Mary,” the issue is whether you believe in the communion of the saints. All who die in a state of grace are “saints.” Bur we canonize certain holy people because miracles occur as a result of praying for their intercession, thereby confirming their presence in Heaven. If you ask your pastor to pray for you, that is not “praying TO your pastor.” If you believe, as Catholics do, that the saints in heaven can hear us, then it doesn’t matter if our intercessor is on Earth or in Heaven.

  • Jonathan Keysor

    I’m right! No I’m right!!! No me! I can’t imagine why people could possibly find Christians an unappealing bunch.

    • Matthew T. Mason

      Do you have a point?

      • Jim H

        I think it is quite obvious what his point is.

        In 2007, Evangelicals were 26.3% of the population of the USA, Catholics were 23.9%, Mainline protestants were 18.1%. Altogether they made up about 68% of the population.

        In 2014, Evangelicals were 25.4% of the population of the USA, Catholics were 20.8%, Mainline protestants were 16.1%. Altogether they made up about 61% of the population.

        In 2007, the religiously unaffiliated were 16.1%. In 2014 they were 22.8%.

        Do the math. There are a few really obvious conclusions.

        The first is that Christianity is losing the battle for the “hearts and minds” of Americans.

        The second is that you are choosing to further divide yourselves by pointing out who isn’t Christian.

        If the Catholic Church is cut out of the “body of Christ” it has lost a third of its size and now accounts for 42% of the population.

        If mainline Protestants don’t measure up, you’re down to 25%.

        You really don’t need a plot or persecution by people who want to destroy Christianity, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourselves.

        • Matthew T. Mason

          I wasn’t asking you.

          • Jim H

            Not a big surprise.

          • Jonathan Keysor

            I just wish that I was smart enough, or chosen enough, or blessed enough to believe correctly…

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            You need the in-dwelling Holy Spirit – and then submit to him.

        • Fallenman4Jesus

          Honestly, people are not fooling the Lord. Matthew 7 makes that clear….on that day MANY will say to me ‘Lord,Lord’………and I will say to them, depart from me…..I NEVER knew you. The way to life is straight and narrow and FEW there be that find it.

          • Jim H

            “The way to life is straight and narrow and FEW there be that find it.”
            Yes, but as evangelicals shouldn’t it be your mission job to evangelize and try to help more people find it? If you are losing Christians using the tactics you are using, aren’t you blowing your mission?

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            Absolutely that’s my mission – the great commission. And as a former roman catholic, I see these folks as a huge, over one billion in number, mission field. The tactic is to get “Christians” to be true believers. True Christians seek to glorify God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Roman catholics seek to glorify the ‘mother church’, the pope and themselves.

          • Martin Gran

            We will assume for a moment that you were indeed at one time a Roman Catholic, but with that being said I will argue that you never took the time to actually learn about your faith. Now because of your ignorance of the Catholic faith you are now preaching from your little soap box. Sadly though your “mission” is based on false information and hatred.

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            I know enough to know that it’s heresy. Let’s hear you defend, using the Bible; a special priesthood – all believers are priests; pope – Jesus is head of his church; mary worship – idolatry; baby baptism absolving sin – doesn’t exist; priests forgiving sin – blasphemy! You follow what you want but you are in direct opposition to God.

          • Martin Gran

            Please point out to us where in the Bible it states that babies can not be baptized? Name one Catholic that indulgences in Mary worship. Explain to us why the reformers removed 7 books from God’s book…the bible? The priest hood is in direct line with the 12 apostles whom Christ told to go out and forgive sins. Question. Were you really a Catholic or did you just make up that obvious lie?

          • Matthew T. Mason

            Please point out to us where in the Bible it states that babies can not be baptized?

            The problem with your assertion is the assumption baptized babies achieve salvation through this act. That’s heresy, as nowhere in the Bible does it state salvation comes through baptism alone. Philip’s encounter with the eunuch in Acts 8 is a perfect example of this.

            Salvation comes by grace through faith. It is silly to think babies would even think of, much less call upon, Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

            Name one Catholic that indulgences in Mary worship.

            That would be anyone who would start a prayer with, “Hail Mary.” That’s idolatry.

            Explain to us why the reformers removed 7 books from God’s book…the bible?

            Explain your reliance on books not in the Bible as opposed to the Bible itself.

            The priest hood is in direct line with the 12 apostles whom Christ told to go out and forgive sins.

            They are? Based on what?

          • Martin Gran

            Your replies are pure protestant dribble.
            The Hail Mary is in the bible.
            You did not answer the question of why the reformers removed 7 books from the bible.
            The priesthood is based on the bible.
            Again, no where does it say that a baby can not be baptized.
            You need to rethink the closed minded protestant mind set that you have.

          • Fallenman4Jesus

            How about you show me in the bible all these things you say. Let’s put the burden of proof on you. There is no such thing as baby baptism especially under the pretense that it washes away original sin. The bible calls all believers priests and saints. The bible makes it clear that only God can forgive sin. I was raised a catholic and remember the lack of life in that service – mass. You prove your stance.

          • Martin Gran

            So in other words you can’t. Typical of a self righteous, non-Christ like protestant…to make accusations with out a single bit of proof. Get off of your little soap box and go crawl back into your little cult church.

          • Valri

            “Former roman catholic”

            Doesn’t sound like you ever understood it to begin with.

          • Jim H

            A lot of Christians seem lack true humility and to actually be more interested on glorifying themselves than God. I think God would be better off without that kind of promoter.

          • bret

            It is my understanding that all Christian denominations, including Catholics, are experiencing declining membership except for the unaffiliated churches. I believe evangelicals were making good progress overseas but my information is not very up to date. But here at home the evangelicals got into bed with or were co-opted by the Republican Party back in the 1980’s with Ronald Reagan. This has done irreparable damage to our evangelizing ability here at home. And the Tea Party and fundamentalists have ruined our reputations here in America. And the initial support evangelicals gave Donald Trump has made us a laughingstock. Not to mention the prosperity preachers and other “loose cannons” in our midsts. And the extreme resistance against the gay community and especially gay marriage, even after it’s legalization, is killing us. I personally have given up on evangelistic work here at home and now see foreign missions as the only remaining avenue left to us evangelicals.

          • Jim H

            Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. People are leaving Christian religious denominations, because they find nothing appealing in those religions. The facts that they are so negative, even about each other is a big part of that. Young people want no part of it.

          • bret

            So what would you have us to do? Even if all 40,000 Protestant denominations were to magically come together and get it right that would help but we still have a negative gospel to present. It is only positive once one believes and understands the negative. Which this young generation will not accept as they are too intelligent and logically minded. They demand evidence for they have not trust nor understand the concept of faith. Nor do we. Why did God choose faith? I know what the scriptures say but they want to know what I can only speculate with great fear and trepidation. What were the exact thoughts and feelings God had that lead him to the determination that salvation would be by faith? The last woman I witnessed to on the internet was extremely intelligent and knowledgeable in both theology and philosophy.

            Indeed vastly superior to my own. And although an atheist she had a strong desire for there to be a God. I was up all night writing two very long posts and I gave it everything I had. The next morning the response I received back was, “The very idea that God wants me to come to him by simple faith makes me shutter.” And why do we need salvation in the first place? I know what the scriptures say and have used them hundreds of times. It just doesn’t work. They demand to logically understand the things that scripture says, even the angels desire to look into these things. I was on one religious DISQUS forum that was debating the existence of God that totally degenerated into a God-bashing orgy. People were saying things like, if God exists he’s gonna owe us an explanation and an apology.

            One fella even said if he dies and stands before God he is going to kick God in the shin. And for that comment he received about 20 up-votes. Some even equated God to a terrorist. Believe me and do as I command or I will hurt you, they claim is the technical definition of a terrorist. And as math and science is all the rage these days many are quite knowledgeable therein. DISQUS often has forums on whether or not freewill even exists. Many do not even believe in freewill. Not to mention the problems with evolution, metaphysics and all that New Age philosophy that has even crept into some of our churches including the Catholic Church. And the concept of the Global Village or oneness of all humanity is almost universally accepted. And most religions, especially conservative Christianity and radical Islam are looked upon with utter disdain.

            As little more than worthless impediments to the absolutely essential changes that must take place to save our planet and maintain peace among nations. I fear we are already witnessing the the beginnings of a worldview to either unify all the world’s religions into one or the eradication of all of them. In my opinion these are the types of mindsets and worldviews we must dispel and spiritual knowledge we must possess to get through to this young millennial generation. For aside from all the aforementioned, the typical logic I get from young millennials is, how could an all powerful loving God allow millions of helpless innocent children to die from starvation and disease? And if God exists, he created us the way we are. So if he is dissatisfied with us that is his fault and he should judge and punish himself not us. How does one respond to such arguments ?

      • Jonathan Keysor

        I appreciate you doing my homework for me Jim H. Matthew T. Mason, my point is that it’s articles like this, and the conversations they inspire that play a key role in people leaving the church. Those of us that love Jesus but do not want to participate in the judgmental attitudes of “the church” have very few places left to go.

    • Peter Leh

      “I’m right! No I’m right!!! No me!”

      not much different that any other organization with humans involved it seems. 🙂

  • FoJC_Forever

    Catholics practice Damnable Heresies. Catholics don’t follow Jesus (the) Christ. Catholics are pagans masquerading as Christians.

    Follow Jesus, find Truth.

    • Valri

      Fundamentalists fail at understanding Catholic practices. You are one of them.

  • Matthew T. Mason

    I am going to put this out there: Catholics are not Christians. Here’s why.

    *Neither a priest, a bishop, nor the pope himself, can absolve people of their sins. Only Jesus can do that.
    *There is no purgatory. You cannot be prayed into heaven, or out of hell.
    *You pray to God and Jesus, not Mary and Joseph. That’s idolatry.
    *Mary may be in heaven, but she was never sinless.
    *There is no mediator between God and Jesus.

    • Jim H

      “Neither a priest, a bishop, nor the pope himself, can absolve people of their sins. Only Jesus can do that.”

      No, not only Jesus can do that. According to the Bible, he can, and did pass that power on. He gave it to the apostles.

      “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
      -John 20:22-23

      “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
      -Matthew 16:18-19

      “There is no purgatory. You cannot be prayed into heaven, or out of hell.”

      In II Maccabees 12:39-46, Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces are collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. They discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40). Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out…He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

      You might know that passage, except Luther removed Maccabees from the Old Testament canon, like he wanted to do with Jude, James, Hebrews, and Revelation. He did propose removing them from the canon because they were perceived to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide, but this was not generally accepted among his followers, so he merely placed them in a secondary position relative to the rest.

      I guess when you are a believer in sola scriptura, that doesn’t prevent you from tinkering with the canon and removing the books that say things you don’t like.

      “You pray to God and Jesus, not Mary and Joseph. That’s idolatry.”

      *There is no mediator between God and Jesus.

      The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholic, and most Anglicans, believe that saints may be asked to intercede (or pray) for others. Intercession from saints can be found in Christian writings from the 3rd century AD. The 4th-century Apostles Creed states belief in the communion of saints, which certain Christian churches interpret as supporting the intercession of saints.

      If we go back to 2 Maccabees, it recounts Judas Maccabaeus seeing the dead Onias and Jeremiah giving blessing to the Jewish army. Probably another reason Luther got rid of it.

      “Mary may be in heaven, but she was never sinless.”

      How do you know there are several places where the Bible says she had special blessing from God, but doesn’t elaborate on what that blessing was?

      “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”
      -Luke 1:41-42

      The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
      -Luke 1:28.
      One last point, although Protestant don’t talk, or just don’t know about it, Martin Luther seemed to maintain his Mariology (including the Immaculate Conception), even after he broke with the church, and continued to believe it, with a couple lapses, until the end of his life.

      The eminent Lutheran scholar Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) has also confirmed that Luther believed in the Immaculate Conception even as a Protestant. Here is Martin Luther in his own words:

      “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin”

      – Martin Luther’s Sermon “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527.

      “She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.”

      – Martin Luther’s Little Prayer Book, 1522.

      Both quotations derive from Luther’s writings after his break from Rome.
      Luther even details how the Immaculate Conception worked:

      “Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are. For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person.”

      (Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, edited by John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1996, 291).

      • bret

        You are obviously a well learned layperson of Catholic and Christian theology. Answer me this if possible. If humankind is born with original sin or as you put it, “born in sin of sinful parents.” How do you explain the following? Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them. For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:13-14) At the time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” Jesus called a little child to him and placed the child among them. And Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whosoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.” (Matthew 18:3-5) If indeed all are “born in sin” apparently Jesus does not recognize the sinful nature until it manifests itself at a later age. At what age do you suspect the inherited spiritual predisposition for sin kicks-in? And as Catholics baptize infants for the “removal of original sin” then shouldn’t it be technically impossible for the sinful nature to manifest at a latter age? And if the sinful nature has been removed from infancy. Then from where does sin come from in adulthood?

        • Jim H

          When I used the phrase ” “born in sin of sinful parents” I was merely quoting Luther.

          You ask some very good questions. I have asked the same ones. What I learn from trying to figure all that out was that I couldn’t. You are quite correct there is a great deal of contradiction that is never really resolved.

          For example, did you know that Augustine and Luther, among many others, believed that unbaptized babies went to Hell? That is why infant baptism became so popular.

          It wasn’t until the middle ages that theologians like Aquinas began to realize how bad that made God look and speculated maybe there was another place for them, not as good as Heaven, but a very nice place called limbo. Fairly recently the Catholic Church stated there was really no basis for belief in limbo.

          Protestant never accepted Limbo, but many sects came to believe that all children below a certain age automatically go to heaven if they die. To some baptism had no saving power in, and of itself, but was an outward expression of their decision to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Children below a certain age considered too young to be able to decide that for themselves.

          Some fundamentalist still hold the belief that infants go to Hell, regardless of being too young to decide.

          I think it is hard to come to a conclusion that makes any sense.

          On the one hand, God seems worse than Hitler if he sends innocent babies to Hell.

          But, the whole concept of original sin is that it has nothing to do with our personal innocence or guilt. We simply inherit it. Our personal guilt has nothing to do with it.

          It is kind of like being a heroin baby. Your mother, not you, took the drug. You were completely innocent. It didn’t matter that you were unable to choose, you are still born addicted and need to go through withdrawal.

          I have been questioning that a long time. More than once I have simply been told that I need to take that up with God.
          But, to address what Jesus said about it, to my knowledge, he personally didn’t say anything at all about any of that.

          • Kena

            God does not hold children accountable until the conscience is fully formed. For me that was somewhere between 12 and 14. I remember one time I sinned and felt the sting of guilt and condemnation.

            Remember now that in the garden of Eden Adam and Eve were naked yet felt no shame or guilt? When they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they then felt guilt and shame. This fruit created in them a conscience, to know good and evil. Afterward all men would inherit this conscience but God being rich in mercy allowed the children to first develop physically, mentally and emotionally to a certain point before their conscience would fully develop which provides a form of grace to grow before being weighted down with the condemnation of sin.

            Thus, all children who die before the conscience condemns them to Hell will be granted access into Heaven in the first resurrection. In the mean time they will reside in a place called Paradise which is a partition of Hades.


          • Jim H

            “God does not hold children accountable until the conscience is fully formed. For me that was somewhere between 12 and 14.

            Everything you say about that subject is very interesting, but it appears to be merely your opinion. It also misses the point because I was talking about original sin.

            The doctrine of original sin (or ancestral sin) is not about personal accountability. It is about being born in a state of inherited sin. Having a developed conscience, or not, is not relevant, because no choice is involved.
            Both Luther and Calvin supported the idea of original sin, as did John Wesley later.
            Nothing you said actually addresses that.

          • Kena

            I’m not sure what the doctrine of original sin is so I’m going to guess that it claims that the children are condemned for the sin of Adam (correct me if I’m wrong).
            I think the scripture below plainly shows that God is just and does not impute the sins of the father (or another) to the son, etc.
            Ezekiel 18:
            19 Yet say you, Why? does not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son has done that which is lawful and right, and has kept all my statutes, and has done them, he shall surely live.
            20 The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

            Paul shows us here that if there is no law there can be no transgression of the law.
            Romans 4:15-b … for where law is not, neither is transgression.

            Also it is common knowledge that the Jews were required to learn the laws of God starting at the age of 12, the age of accountability.

            Where is the law that the gentiles are to be judged by?
            The conscience.
            Romans 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
            Also: how do the gentiles know right and wrong? Conscience.
            James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

          • Jim H

            “I’m not sure what the doctrine of original sin is so I’m going to guess that it claims that the children are condemned for the sin of Adam.”

            Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:3 says that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”

            Death, both physical and spiritual, is a result of sin according to Romans 5:12nd 6:23. Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Infants die. Therefore, they must be sinners.

            “I think the scripture below plainly shows that God is just and does not impute the sins of the father (or another) to the son, etc.”

            Exodus 20:5

            You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

            Numbers 14:18 (ESV)

            ‘The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

            Deuteronomy 5:9 (ESV)

            “You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,”

            Not to mention that, God did impute our sins to Christ on the cross, and Christ died in punishment of those sins.

            9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

          • Kena

            Visiting the iniquity etc speaks of payment for sins which will be visited in this life. Think about Israel. Their father’s sins cost them much which has to do with being outcasts, slaughtered etc. not damnation of their soul.

            I know God and can say from personal experience that he is good and does not condemn the guiltless.

            All men are born with a nature to sin and will sin but the children are held innocent.

            These things I can testify to because I have had fellowship with him for 35 years and have had many long talks with him about these things. God is good and just and merciful always. He is also very misunderstood, even among the believers.

          • Jim H

            So, when you talk to God does He literally talk back with a voice inside your head?

          • Kena

            Before I answer your question let me ask you something.

            Are you a Christian? Do you fellowship God daily?

          • Jim H

            I keep my personal beliefs personal. Besides, I don’t understand what that has to do with answering my question. You already said you know God and have conversations with him. I would sincerely like to know more. You felt it appropriate to enter into a exchange I was having with someone else to enlighten me. Why the sudden reluctance to do so now?

          • Kena

            Not reluctance. It is hard to explain these spiritual matters to those who have not experienced it. If you were a Christian then I was going to tell you that it is the same way he speaks to you, to all Christians.
            Ephesians 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ;
            21 If so be that you have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
            1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

          • Jim H

            That is what I thought.

        • disqus_23FzLxRDKW

          If humankind is born with original sin as many believe, how does one explain the following? “Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them. For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” (Matthew 19:13-14) “At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Jesus called a little child to him and placed the child among them. And Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

          Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whosoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.” (Matthew 18:3-5) If indeed all are “born in sin” apparently Jesus does not recognized the sinful nature in young children. Does the inherited predisposition for sin lie dormant in our “spiritual genes” until some later age? And as Catholics baptize infants for the “removal of original sin” then shouldn’t it be technically impossible for the sinful nature to manifest at some later age? And if the sinful nature has been removed from infancy, from whence does sin arise in adulthood?

      • Matthew T. Mason

        1) All the apostles are dead.
        2) I don’t care about Maccabees, the Apocrypha, or any of the allegations of Luther removing it. I stand on and by the Word of God, not some anti-Christian troll.
        3) Do not post anything to me again. Any subsequent comments will be flagged for harassment.

        • Jim H

          That’s fine with me. I’ve wasted too much time and effort on you already. I assumed at some point you’d just declare victory and run away. You didn’t disappoint me.

        • Martin Gran

          Seems as if you are running from the truth! If anyone is doing the harassment is you.

      • Kena

        Matthew 16:
        18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter , and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

        This is the word used for Peter. Notice that it says “piece of rock”
        4074. Πέτρος Petros pet’-ros; apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock; as a name, Petrus, an apostle: — Peter, rock.

        Now this is the rock that Christ will build his Church on. Notice that 1) it says “mass of rock” and 2) that it is in feminine form both of which negate the idea that this rock is Peter.

        4073. πέτρα petra pet’-ra; feminine of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): — rock.

        Well then if Peter is not the rock on which the Church shall be built then what is this rock which Christ speaks of?

        15 He said to them, But whom say you that I am?
        16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
        17 And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father which is in heaven.

        The rock on which Christ will build his Church is that the Father in heaven will reveal Jesus Christ to us and not flesh and blood.

        Are there any other scriptures to back this up?

        John 6:

        44 No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
        45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes to me.

        It’s pretty plain to me.


        • Jim H

          “Well then if Peter is not the rock on which the Church shall be built then what is this rock which Christ speaks of?”

          Could be the declaration Peter made, that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
          It would make more sense to me for the “foundation” of a Church to be a perceived truth, rather than just a person who says it.

          • Kena

            Yes, we are in agreement on this point. God reveals who Christ is and in my personal experience he also revealed to me that I needed Christ as my savior.

    • Valri

      I am going to put this out there: You are an anti-Catholic bigot. Here’s why.

      Priests, bishops, and the pope don’t absolve anyone of their sins. They are witnesses. It is God that Catholics believe absolved them. You have misunderstood the role of the priest.

      Purgatory is in 2 Maccabees. What’s that? It’s not IN your Bible? Well then, why did you allow heretics to remove it?

      Catholics don’t pray to Mary or Joseph. They ASK Mary to pray for them. You have been lied to by your fundie pastor.

      If Mary’s not sinless, how could Jesus who IS sinless, sprung from her?

      “There is no mediator between God and Jesus”. And Catholics agree.

      Drop the fundie hate. It’s very unbecoming, and serves only to make you look hateful.

      • Matthew T. Mason

        Priests, bishops, and the pope don’t absolve anyone of their sins.

        That is correct. Because they can’t. They just think they can. When these people say, “Do a dozen Hail Marys” instead of, “Pray to Jesus, confess your sins to Him, and ask for forgiveness, and it will be given to you, as per 1 John 1:9,” what other impression are you supposed to get?

        Purgatory is in 2 Maccabees. What’s that? It’s not IN your Bible? Well then, why did you allow heretics to remove it?

        I did not allow heretics to remove anything. It is absolutely preposterous to believe you can be prayed into heaven or out of hell. Further, these “prayers” are usually done by priests in exchange for money. Go peddle that horsehockey to someone else.

        Catholics don’t pray to Mary or Joseph.


        They ASK Mary to pray for them.

        Why? Why not pray to Jesus or God instead?

        1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) says, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” so what are you doing asking Mary to do anything?

        You may think she was important, but she obviously disagreed: “His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. (John 2:5 KJV)”

        Don’t you think you should be spending your time reading the Bible and not the trash known as the Apocrypha? Satan is deceiving you.

        • Valri

          “That is correct. Because they can’t. They just think they can.”

          No, they don’t think they can, and they don’t try to. You are lying, bearing false witness against your fellow Christians and I think you’ll find that’s a major no-no.

          You DO know the Hail Mary, at least the bulk of it, is taken straight from the book of St. Luke? No, I thought not.

          “It is absolutely preposterous to believe you can be prayed into heaven or out of hell.”

          Well, take it up with the Bible. That is, the version of the Bible that EVERYONE used before you fundamentalists started tearing things out of it you happened not to like.


          The liar here is yourself.

          “Why? Why not pray to Jesus or God instead?”

          They do that too. I did when I was Catholic. I didn’t just turn to Mary for everything.

          As for the “apocrypha”, you should do a little research on it. Luther didn’t remove the books, he separated them, and one of your fundie snake oil salesman yanked them out completely later on. Luther also wanted to pull the book of James because he didn’t like the idea that people were told to confess sins to one another and that faith without works is dead.

          • Matthew T. Mason

            No, they don’t think they can, and they don’t try to.

            Funny, Martin Gran, in his defense of Catholicism, is saying otherwise. So either you or him are full of it. Which is it?

            You DO know the Hail Mary, at least the bulk of it, is taken straight from the book of St. Luke? No, I thought not.

            Using Luke to justify idolatry is still idolatry.

            Well, take it up with the Bible. That is, the version of the Bible that EVERYONE used before you fundamentalists started tearing things out of it you happened not to like.

            There you go again, accusing me of something I took no part in, assuming it ever really happened at all.

            They do that too.

            The pope didn’t.

            I did when I was Catholic.

            Oh, so you were Catholic. What are you now?

          • Valri

            “Funny, Martin Gran, in his defense of Catholicism, is saying otherwise. So either you or him are full of it. Which is it?”

            Who is Martin Gran and why should I care? Why do you people always think you can take one person’s opinion and make it the opinion of an entire faith? One quote by Richard Dawkins doesn’t represent all atheists, either.

            “Using Luke to justify idolatry is still idolatry.”

            And calling idolatry that which is not idolatry is stupidity.

            “The pope didn’t.”

            In one speech? Who cares?

            “Oh, so you were Catholic. What are you now?”

            Nothing at all. Just someone who recognizes that fundamentalist hatred knows no bounds. Attacking your fellow Christians is appalling in the extreme.

          • Martin Gran

            @Valri…See what Catholics have to put up with? These self righteous protestants are a royal pain!

        • Martin Gran

          And what do you think satan is doing to you? He has already turned your soul black.

          • Matthew T. Mason

            Lol! You’re just full of demons, aren’t you?

          • Martin Gran

            So you say.

          • Matthew T. Mason

            So I know. Your words prove it.

          • Martin Gran

            As Christ said to Pilate…”So you say”!

          • Matthew T. Mason

            You’re flirting with blasphemy by mentioning Jesus. Be careful.

          • Martin Gran

            The only one that has and is flirting with blasphemy are some of your fellow protestants.

    • Martin Gran

      You have no biblical reference for purgatory because your reformers removed the two books that referred to purgatory. All of assumptions are wrong and with that being said I guess we can all agree that you are nothing but a self righteous, non-Christian protestant who has strayed so far from the truth that your soul is in trouble!

      • Kena

        Can you tell me what purgatory is like? and where it is located?


  • Reason2012

    Is Mary omnipresent that she can hear our prayers to her asking her to pray for us? No. It’s nothing short of anti-Biblical idolatry to pray to anyone but God/Jesus Christ.

    Even angels corrected those who tried to bow down before them.

    “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.”
    Revelation 22:8-9

    Marry is our sister in Christ, not something to be turned into an idol and worshiped and prayed to.

    Stop worshiping others besides God/Jesus Christ. Read your Bibles, and see how the catholic denomination keeps so many well intentioned people blind to God’s truth.

  • Bertha Warren

    Mary and Joseph did not die for our Sin Jesus Christ. Jesus said ask anything in his name. In order to get the Father, we have to go through His Son Jesus Christ. People better start reading the Word of God for themselves. There lot of false prophets, misleading people. Because they refuse to ask for forgiveness of there sin
    and ask Jesus to come into their heart and have relationship with Him.

  • bowie1

    When I was a much younger fellow our family attended one time a combined service with several village protestant and catholic churches where only the priest mentioned the name of Jesus in his prayer. The sermon preached by a protestant minister did not mention the name of God or Jesus in his message. There seems to a certain amount of shame in mentioning the name of Jesus lest someone is offended.

    • Fallenman4Jesus

      The name of Jesus is the most powerful polarizing force in the world! And for good reason, Acts 4:12 tells us that there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. So of course, satan is gonna do whatever he can to keep from having that name said. Shame on ‘priests’ ‘pastors’ or Christians who don’t use the name of Jesus.

  • Clae Brewer

    Christian here; nothing worst then self made theologians slinging rocks at what they don’t like. You guys have a dogma liquidation sell going on in these post. Anything you are posting has zero effect on changing lives. Use the word of God to reinforce your claims not to browbeat the listener. Philippians 2:14 Do all things without complaining and disputing,

  • EC

    Throughout and looking of all of the discussions here the fact of the matter is if you aren’t talking about Jesus and how you are only saved through his blood then you aren’t talking about nothing. I don’t care if you claim you are catholic, protestant, Jehovah witness. If you are not solely team Jesus then you are on the loosing team. I didn’t say team Pope, Mary, Joseph, T.d. Jakes, creflo dollar I said team Jesus. And praying too any of those people can’t get you help or any closer to God then if you actually called a living saint and asked them to help you. Why because the Bible said its about your relationship with God and not the person that you asking to pray for you. And you actually have to confess things with your own tongue to God in order to be saved. That why the catholic tradition of a baby getting baptized does nothing for that child getting saved. Because your parents can not confess Jesus as your Lord and savior only you can do that. I hear all of the arguments but at the end of the day if you aren’t talking about Jesus and how much God loved you that he gave his only begotten son then you aren’t talking about nothing.

  • Martin Gran

    I would like to suggest that all of you anti-Catholic protestants really take the time to learn about the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church before your post your hateful opinions.

    • bret

      Sorry for the hateful opinions. But you will not get many individuals to seriously study the Catholic faith. It is far too complex. It would be easier for you to research the Protestant faith to see why your faith is so unpopular with so many of us. This is a serious suggestion. For obviously you have never done so. If you had you’d understand our mistrust of your faith and even your very popular Pope Francis. Whom I personally admire but still see as little more than a public relations spokesman. For although he is being a peacemaker he is misleading the world with his friendly down to earth all inclusiveness but he is not preaching the gospel. That would cause rejection. The Pope is more concerned with repairing the damaged image of the Catholic Church after all those pedophile priest scandals and regaining some momentum after decades of declining Church membership than he is about the salvation of the lost. But if you are a Holy Spirit possessing individual then you are a genuine saved heaven-bound Christian and you are my brother. But in my opinion you are playing ball with the wrong team.

      • Martin Gran

        Sorry Bret at one time I was a free will southern baptist but realize that all they did was preach hate against the Catholic Church. Their preaching made me wonder what were they afraid of and then I found out…they, as most protestants, were afraid of the truth.

        • bret

          I am 56 years old and have been a born-again Christian for 29 years. And even though I have learned a great deal I am still learning all the time. I am not afraid of the truth. I am sorry you had a negative experience as a Southern Baptist. One must realize that all men regardless of position still possess the fallen sinful tendencies that are inherent to the human condition. These tendencies are not mainly of the flesh but rather of the heart as to believe what is desired. And of the mind as pride which is painfully reluctant to admit one’s error. As Jesus said in (Mark 4:24) “Consider carefully what you hear.” And I leave you with (Ephesians 1:13-14) please consider it’s meaning carefully.

          • Martin Gran

            I am 62 years old and have been a practicing Roman Catholic for 46 years. The unChristian experience extends not only from the southern baptist but to every self righteous protestant who slanders Catholics and Christ’s Holy Church.

          • bret

            Well the way I see it….that self-righteousness extends to the Roman Catholic Church as well. She claims to be the Mother Church or the one true Apostolic Church. That’s another thing that bothers many Protestants. I consider the one true Church to be the Body of Christ. It is made up of all persons the world over from every denomination, including Catholic, who possess the Holy Spirit. And that the head of the Body of Christ is Christ Jesus. And the true vicar, pope or representative of Christ on earth is the Holy Spirit.

          • Martin Gran

            All protestant denominations in some way or another came out of the Catholic Church. We are the Mother Church of all churches (regardless of how hateful those protestant churches are towards us). Jesus founded our church where as men founded the various protestant churches. If the truth bothers most or all protestants then so be it.

          • bret

            All I can say is this emotional predisposition runs high among many evangelicals. We are short on patience and manners. And we turn on our own if they get out of line. Look at the top menu bar. We even have a separate section for apostasy. Click on it and see who’s on there. Noble Prize winning former President Jimmy Carter is there because of his acceptance of same-sex marriage. I visit Catholic websites all the time. Just recently your Crux website ran an article entitled, “Jimmy Cater Full of Grace.” Well the folks here thought Jimmy Carter was full of something but it certainly wasn’t grace. But after he took sick many here expressed sympathy but he still remains an official apostate.

            And the apostate list goes on and on page after page. Even entire denominations aren’t immune. If you want acceptance I suggest staying on one of the many Catholic websites. Now as I have visited them before I know I would not be attacked outright. But if I started challenging all sorts of official Catholic doctrine and the authority of the Pope what do you think would happen to me? I believe I’d get out alive but I am fairly certain I’d be bruised up a little. Right or wrong Evangelicals see themselves as defenders of the faith. Numerous Protestant denominations are now apostate or at least suspect. Roman Catholicism just happens to be at the top of our list. So try not to take it so personal.

          • Martin Gran

            I do take it personal when someone who knows nothing about what they are saying tries to pass it off as the truth and by doing so trashes the Catholic Church. I would suggest that all protestants deal with the sins (which are many) within their own churches. Also, the Catholic Church, as well as various protestant churches, has no control over web sites that are set up. Also, as this story deals about the Catholic Church then I am more than entitled to comment on the lies that are being posted here.

  • SoundMind

    I agree with Mr. Gendron. Praying to dead people for help is useless activity, and probably offends God who, alone, deserves to be addressed by prayer. Jorge the pope has got it wrong, so I don’t believe he is a follower of Christ. How unfortunate for the pope’s followers to be so misled.

    • Valri

      Catholics don’t pray to dead people. You misunderstand. You have it wrong. You have been lied to.

      • SoundMind

        You got a need? Catholics have a saint specially designed to run interference for you with God. One with inside access. Or so they claim.

        Sorry, Valri, dead people can do no favors for the living. There is no scriptural support for this haywire idea.

        • Valri

          Except that they’re not dead, Mrs. Fundamentalist. They are alive with the rest of the saints in heaven. Didn’t they teach you that in fundamentalist school?

          • SoundMind

            There, there… call me names, try to put me in a box so you can ascribe motives and beliefs… feel better now? LOL

          • Valri

            What names have I called you? Are you or are you not a fundamentalist Christian? That’s a box you’ve put YOURSELF in. I’d listen to the original church over yours any day.

          • SoundMind

            No, I do not describe nor limit myself–and neither does God–by the words you have chosen. I am, however, a member of the only legitimate church that follows Jesus, which is:

            …the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven… (Hebrews_12:23)

            The only church members that will enter heaven belong to this group. It is not defined by denominations, by buildings, by popes, nor by man-made doctrines.

          • Valri

            Yes. You and every fundamentalist out there. You alone know what God wants. You possess not a single ounce of humility, and all other Christians are basically satanists as far as you’re concerned.

          • SoundMind

            Taking refuge in assigning labels and ascribing motives to those who hold opinions that differ from yours could very well be a stumbling block causing you to miss the Truth as revealed by the Word of God.

          • Valri

            Which of course you have and no one else does. A touch of humility would serve you well.

          • SoundMind

            Me? I ain’t so much. But I AM the daughter of the Most High God, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords. Being related to him makes me special.

            For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Corinthians_5:21
            Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. (Proverbs_31:10)

  • Valri

    Cute how every story involving the pope or Catholics is filed under “apostasy” here. “Christian” News Network?” Really?

    • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

      I wouldn’t waste my time here. They don’t consider us Christians so obviously the word has a different meaning for them. They prefer the thin gruel of “sola scripture” to the depth and beauty of the Magisterium.

      • bret

        I see your upset and understandably so. I thought I might be able to help you a little in you understanding of the evangelical mindset. And also why you encounter so much resistance here on the Christian News Network or as I like to call it the Bible-Thumper Network. Please visit (wwwjohn1429org). Please click on the circle in center of screen, open page full screen and maximum the volume. Please watch the entire video regardless of the pain involved. For these are the types of teachings many of us evangelicals are routinely exposed to. After you calm down feel free to comment on the contents of the video if you so desire.

        • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

          I tried to watch the video but apparently their server is down. From what I can see, it looks like another sad by-product of “sola scriptura.”

          But to clarify, I am not upset with these people. I was an Evangelical myself for a long time and understand perfectly the mindset. I never had much respect for people who would rather exalt themselves by winning an argument than by saving a soul, but there are obviously many of them.

          I have spent a lot of time trying to have rational, civil discussions on this site and it obviously attracts nothing but fringe fundamentalists and trolls who want to argue with them. I have also been sucked into some of these petty arguments and I just don’t have time to cast pearls before swine.

          My original purpose was to defend the Catholic faith against the idiotic and tired canards that were routinely trotted out here. My last post was simply waving the white flag and suggesting that other RCs like Valri not waste their time here.

          In any case, I have enjoyed finding at least one Evangelical who actually cares about my salvation.

          If the site ever comes back up I’ll check it out.

          • bret

            The website I was telling you about is back up and running. The video is about a statement Pope Francis made in NYC during his recent trip to the US. Again the website is (wwwjohn1429org).

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I have no problem about what he said, although it is ambiguous enough that one could hear anything he wants. In its proper context he is addressing those who see no tangible human results to their efforts. He makes the analogy that as the final outcome of a human life, the cross was a failure.

            “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.”

            In other words, to the carnal mind, it was definitely a failure. Likewise, if we try to judge the effectiveness of our witness in purely human terms, we can become disheartened. Obviously that web site took it in the opposite sense that the crucifixion itself was a failure. I do not believe that was his intended meaning.

            What I understand it to mean is that viewing Jesus’ death on the cross from a PURELY human perspective, it was a “failure.” Even the disciples themselves were dismayed at the outcome. They certainly didn’t see a victory at the time. It would take the gift of the Holy Spirit to enable them to see the crucifixion in it’s grander spiritual sense, as a triumph over death itself.

            Hope that helps that your scratching problem. 🙂

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            Here is the full context.

            We can get caught up measuring the value of our apostolic works by the
            standards of efficiency, good management and outward success which
            govern the business world. Not that these things are unimportant! We
            have been entrusted with a great responsibility, and God’s people
            rightly expect accountability from us. But the true worth of our
            apostolate is measured by the value it has in God’s eyes. To see and
            evaluate things from God’s perspective calls for constant conversion in
            the first days and years of our vocation and, need I say, great
            humility. The cross shows us a different way of measuring success. Ours
            is to plant the seeds: God sees to the fruits of our labors. And if at
            times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need
            to remember that we are followers of Jesus… and his life, humanly
            speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross

          • bret

            Did you not watch the video? I realize the Pope was trying to make an analogy but that was the worst possible one to pick. For Christ came into this world for the singular purpose of dying on the cross. “Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) I can not fathom how Christ dying upon the Cross can be seen as anything other than the ultimate of success. It was the culmination of God’s divine plan of salvation. How can the supposed Vicar of Christ to planet earth see God’s plan of salvation in any way a failure?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I watched the video and I reject your interpretation of it. Mountains out of molehills.

          • bret

            I am sorry you feel that way. We evangelical types see the Blood and the Cross as everything. Kind of the way I know you see the Eucharist. If one of our leaders used the Eucharist as a comparison of failure how would you take it? I would be willing to bend as far as to say the Pope made a poor decision in choosing his analogy. But that’s as far as I can stretch. Otherwise I can only conclude there is a significant difference between our two faiths. Perhaps we see the Blood differently? Cross vs Eucharist?

          • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

            I see your point about the Eucharist and I would be offended if anyone demeaned it. But, as I said, it was an ambiguous and unfortunate choice of words. It was being translated so I would be interested in reading what he actually said since I have no trouble reading Spanish and Italian.

            There is a significant difference between how we express our faiths but we both confirm the same Nicene creed.

            For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,

            he suffered death and was buried,

            and rose again on the third day

            in accordance with the Scriptures.

            He ascended into heaven

            and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

            He will come again in glory

            to judge the living and the dead

            and his kingdom will have no end.

            The Eucharist is inseparable from the Cross. During the Mass, the priest quotes Luke 22:20






            DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

            Catholics believe that the chalice contains the true blood of Christ, but it is the blood that was poured out at Calvary. If there was no Blood nor a Cross there would be no chalice. So at every Mass we re-affirm our faith in the redemptive sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross. You and I really believe the same core Christian beliefs, but we express it differently in our worship.

  • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

    Once again we see an outpouring of Christian “brotherhood.” This vituperative thread could have been cut and pasted into any discussion on this site regarding Catholicism and no one would even notice. What a phenomenal waste of time it is taking past each other. We seem to be obsessed with “winning” an argument when the arguments themselves are the problem.

    Protestants and Catholics both confirm the Nicene creed which could form a basis for our cooperation in reaching a lost world. How much needless time do we spend bickering when we could be working together to achieve that? Nothing please the Prince of Darkness more than Christian division. Who, then are we serving?

    I have spent a great deal of time trying to have a civil debate and I can see that all I have done is fan the flames of resentment. This is a Evangelical web site, by them and for them. I would say to any Catholics who have been posting here in a similar attempt to defend our faith: our faith stands majestically on its own, always has, always will. We don’t need approval from those who hold us in contempt.

    • bret

      I wrote you a very long reply to your post on the “Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.” forum. Guess what….the moderator removed it and told me to go “preach” on my own website. I guess the “Christian brotherhood” door swings both ways. That has never happened to me before. I am not blaming you of course. And I am familiar with Patheos. A spiritual smorgasbord of over-intellectualized unbelief, apostasy and witchcraft with a tittle of faith here and there. And I consider my discernment to something of an act of Christian charity.

    • bret

      I am replying here to your comment from “Biblical Evidence for Catholicism.” Lets just say the moderator and I had some difficulties. Upon reading your post I was taken aback. Do most Catholics feel as you do? Is there a sense of guilt or unworthiness associated with one’s salvation? For in your post you stated the following, “But if I do not feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to those who thirst, how am I any different from the unsaved?” You believe. The unsaved do not. “Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.” (Hebrews 11:6). Do you not truly believe this? Do you believe your God would save or condemn unjustly? But the most important difference or justification for you is that you are washed in the Blood of the Lamb. The unsaved are not. I am of the opinion that Christ’s Blood is everything in God’s sight. When God sees the Blood on the doorposts of your heart the Holy Spirit shall not pass over you.

      This is indeed an analogy to the original Hebrew Passover in Egypt. I believe you need to look at this from God’s perspective and not your own. For in the natural none of us are worthy. And In the truest sense none of us are saved by faith, trust, belief, repentance, baptism, communion, nor a multitude of good deeds. We are saved by the Blood. “For without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” (Hebrews 9:22) “Behold the LAMB OF GOD that taketh away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) I am getting teary-eyed, goosebumps and spine-chills even as I write this. Now I feel guilty and unworthy. So I am going to do what everyone I have ever known does. Mentally push this deepest theology or the “mystery of salvation” aside so I can feel normal and be a functioning human being again. And for your own piece of mind and mental health I suggest you do likewise. This emotional burden is too heavy to bear for long durations.

      • http://bbcatholics.blogspot.com/ OneBreadOneBody

        Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I agree with you on a couple of points.

        I should not have implied that the unsaved do not in fact perform acts of temporal mercy. They do, and I am sure that it is pleasing to God, irrespective of the state of their souls.

        I have no way of knowing what “most Catholics” feel. I can only say that my relationship with Jesus Christ has nothing to do with feeling. I experience nothing like guilt or a sense of unworthiness now.

        When I was an Evangelical Protestant, I believed that I was saved by my faith in Christ’s redemptive sacrifice on the cross. As a Catholic, I still believe that to be true. The Catholic Church teaches that justification is by faith alone, receiving God’s grace through Christ’s redemptive work and through no merit on our part. Jesus went about doing good works. Was He less the Messiah for so doing? The Catechism makes that very clear in Article 2, sections 187-2011. You search this by googling “roman catholic catechism justification.”

        I don’t know if you read my analogy of the gift from my wife, but the point is that a lively faith OUGHT TO result in good works. (That’s why Luther hated the book of James.) I am no more justified (or “saved”) now than I was when I was Protestant, but the working of the Holy Spirit in me brings forth the fruits of righteousness. These are doctrines taught by every Protestant denomination. It’s actually very Calvinistic. I am not saved by acts of corporal mercy, but they are a part of my active reception of God’s unmerited grace.

        I believe that God will not condemn unjustly, nor will He pardon iniquity lightly. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. So as I partake in Christ’s redemptive sacrifice I am truly washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

        Let me quick to point out that I cannot know if those who rely on “sola fide” for their salvation are wrong. We see in part and we know in part. We walk in the light that is given us, and faith itself is a gift from God. How can I judge another brother’s faith?

        I enjoy being challenged in my statements because it forces me to more fully scrutinize what I truly believe. “As iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.” And I call you friend because you care for the state of my eternal soul. I do need to be reminded of the great gift I have been given, and for that I thank you.

  • warriorbride

    catholic church has not taught you the truth, they have been taught that
    priests and nuns cannot marry, nowhere in the bible does Jesus say that,
    totally the contrary, this has put undue
    pressure to be celibate and God did not say that Priests can’t marry, and I
    think that is what has attributed to the sexual molestation and caused
    pedophilia in the Catholic church today.
    (Hebrews 8:5) If you cause someone to stumble, you will be
    judged, it would be better to have a millstone be put around your neck and be
    cast into the sea, then to see what God will do to you, They have added this to the bible.

    I Corinthinans 7:2 & 9 – Because of sexual immorality, let each man have his
    own wife, and let each woman have her own husband, but if they cannot exercise
    self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with

    Timothy- 4:3
    – Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from
    meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which
    believe and know the truth.

    The deciples were married, except Paul, but
    they said that he could marry if he wanted to.
    Peter, Matthew -8:14, Mark- 1:30, Luke- 4:38, I Corithinans 9:5

    I Corinthians 5:11 – Not to keep company with anyone named a brother,
    who is sexually immoral or an idolater or a DRUNKARD, , not to even eat with
    such a person. (The catholic church has
    hidden the sins of the priests who have commited sexual sins and allowed these
    men to go to other churches to continue to molest our children. Verse 6 – God says a little yeast leavens the
    whole loaf, if they don’t stop, then we
    are to expel them out of the church, less the sin spreads to others, which it
    has in the catholic church . I Corithians 15:33- Bad company
    corrupts good morals. They are like the Pharisees, do as I say, not as I do)

    10:8- God called his priests not
    to drink wine in the tabernacle, lest they die.

    Ephesians 5: 18-
    Also the catholic church serves wine for
    the communion, that is why there are so many alcoholics in the catholic church,
    Jesus never drank wine at the last supper either, nor did Jesus ever drink wine
    in the bible, but the fruit of the vine, which is grape juice.

    26:29 – Jesus even turned his face away when they
    tried to give him wine mixed with myrrh when he died, because all of Jesus’s
    prophets – John, (Luke 1:15), Samson
    (Judges 13:4) and Kings (Proverbs
    31:4-5) from birth were called never to touch wine. Jesus is all three,(Hebrews 8:11) and we are a
    royal priesthood, (I Peter 2:9) why
    are we drinking wine, when Jesus didn’t we are to be as LIKE Christ, , Christians do
    not drink wine for communion, catholics added this to the bible also.

    Habakkuk 2:15-16 – Also what kind of example is it to others, God says
    if we cause someone to stumble, we will be judged.

    I Corinithians 3:17- If anyone defiles the temple of God (our body, verse
    16) God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, our body is the temple
    of the Holy Spirit, not to do with as we please, (to become drunk, sexual sin,
    etc.) but to be called Holy and to
    not be defiled.

    Galations 5:20-21 – The works of the flesh are adultery, fornication,
    uncleanness, lewdness, drunkenness, those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

    John 3:3 – Unless you are born
    again, you will not see the kingdom of God (the catholic church does not
    ask God to come into their heart, to forgive them of their sins, to make them
    like Jesus, they just sprinkle water at birth and at age 12 , take them through
    more scripture, but if the child is not at the age of accountability, and they
    cannot explain why Jesus died for them or understand or explain salvation, then they are not reborn again. Most
    catholics are not saved, because they never go through a conversion, a
    repentance, and if you do not remember when you were saved, you are probably
    not saved. If your life has not changed,
    and you are totally a different person, and convicted of your sin, you are not
    saved, esp. if you continue what you used to do before you received Jesus,
    smoke, drink, cuss, watch horror movies, fornicate, adultery, and most catholics do not have a personal
    relationship with the Lord, but a religion, likened to the Pharasees, a legalistic ritual.)

    Acts 4:12 – Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved

    John 14:6 – Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me” (Not the Saints)

    I Timothy 2:5 – For there is one God and one Mediator between God
    and Man, Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ranson for all men, (You cannot pray to Mother Mary to get to the Father, that is called Necromancer- that means praying to dead people, or
    for the saints to intercede for you, they are also dead, they are not alive, the only person who died and rose again is Jesus Christ, if that is the case, the catholics should be talking to Enoch and Elijah, this is witchcraft, this is what New Age does, séances, talking to the dead, what Saul did in I Samuel 28:7-25, which is consulting the dead, and God was not pleased. This
    is also what the catholic church has added to the bible)

    Dueteronomy 18:`11-12 – There shall not be found among you anyone who calls
    upon the dead, for all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord.

    “He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore
    greatly mistaken” (Mark 12 : 27). God doesn’t need the dead, even though they
    might be with him, to transmit His message to man. This is confirmed in Luke 16
    : 27-31, when the rich man asks the deceased Lazarus to return to warn his
    brothers. Abraham’s answer is firm

    I John 4:1 – Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits,
    whether they are of God. We will be held accountable on judgment day.

    Deuteronomy 4:2 – You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. (You talk about that God is love, but he also says “If you love me, you will follow my commandments, if not, you are a liar and Christ is not in you. ( I John 2:4- The test of Knowing God,) God is also a God of Judgement, too.- I Peter 4:5

  • warriorbride

    CATHOLIC BELIEFS – Mary never had other children after
    the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS- Mary and Joseph indeed had children.
    They were the Lord’s half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and
    mother was Mary.

    Matthew 13:55-56 – Is not this the
    carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and
    Simon, and Judas?

    And his sisters, are they not all
    with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

    Mark 6:3
    – Is not this the
    carpenter, the son of
    Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judah, and Simon? and are not his
    sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

    is the queen of heaven.

    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS- Worshipping the queen of heaven
    (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping
    another god and it provokes to

    7:17 -19- Seest thou not what they do in the
    cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers
    kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and
    to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

    Do they provoke me to anger? saith the
    LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion their own faces.

    Matthew 12:46-50 – “Who is my mother or my brothers?” Whoever does the
    will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother. The Lord made saving souls more important,
    salvation was where he was called, Jesus put that even before his mother. He did
    not acknowledge her when she came to him. (The catholic church puts Mother Mary
    above Jesus, , not someone to be reverenced or prayed to, or put before Jesus, there
    is nowhere in the bible where Jesus said to pray to Mother Mary, the catholic
    church added that to the bible

    Colossians 2:18 ” Let no man beguile you
    of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding
    into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly

    Ephesians 2:8- For its by grace that you have been saved through
    faith, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (The catholic church thinks that
    you have to work you way into heaven, there is no purgatory in the bible, climbing up the stairs of the via dela rosa to pay money to receive
    penance for your sins and signing a document
    to say that you are forgiven or doing rosaries,
    that is what the catholic church has added
    to the bible.

    Hebrews 9:27- It is
    appointed unto men once
    to die, but after this the judgment.

    you do all these works, you are basically saying that Jesus did not die for
    your sins, in essence that Jesus died for nothing, it was finished on the cross, you
    don’t have to do all these works to
    get to heaven, the catholic church has put all this pressure to have you do
    works to enter into heaven, but Jesus did it on Calvary, most catholics, if you
    ask them what reborn means, they don’t know what you are talking about.

    Hebrews 10:17 – Their sins and
    their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
    (Jesus paid the price on the cross, you don’t have to keep trying to
    receive forgivness by works, all you have to do is ask for forgiveness, and
    your sins are washed in the sea of forgetfulness.)

    CATHOLIC BELIEFS – Venerating/worshipping images. Pope
    bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles
    in their homes and churches.

    WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS- It is idolatry
    to venerate images. Exodus 20:3-4 – You shall not make for yourself a carved image and you shall not bow
    down to them nor serve them. For I the
    Lord your God is a jealous God. (This is
    the 3rd and 4th commandments in the bible, the catholic
    church bows down to the statue of the Mother Mary and the Saints, this is
    Idolatry and the bible says that
    idolaters will not enter the
    kingdom of God.

    Dueteronomy 4:16 & 19 and Duet 4:
    23-24- Lest you act corruptly and
    make for yourselves a carved image in the form any figure, the likeness of male
    or female, take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven and worship the sun.
    (The catholic church has statues of Mother Mary and the Saints and pray to them
    and worship them, more than Jesus. The
    Roman Catholic church would take the Mother Mary’s statue in parades and also
    the the sign of the sun and take them to be reverenced by the catholic church,
    which the catholic church added to
    the bible. Where is Jesus in all this?)
    You make statues with eyes that cannot see and ears that do not hear and bow
    down to them, which is a sin !

    Psalm 135:15-17: “The idols
    of the nations are silver and gold, the work of human hands. They have mouths,
    but do not speak; they have eyes, but do not see; they have ears, but do not
    hear, nor is there any breath in their mouths.”

    Isaiah 40:18, 20: “To whom then will you liken God? An idol! … He seeks out a
    skillful craftsman to set up an idol that will not move.”

    Jeremiah 10:14…; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images
    are false, and there is no breath in them.”

    Habakkuk 2:19: “Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake; to a silent stone,
    Arise! Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there
    is no breath at all in it.”

    And what
    was God’s judgment against his people who were guilty and unrepentant of

    Habakkuk 2:19::
    “Therefore, as I live, declares the Lord God,
    surely, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your detestable things
    and with all your abominations, therefore I will withdraw. My eye will not spare, and I will have
    no pity.”

    Catholics, of
    course, deny that they worship idols; they only “venerate” or “adore” them. But
    John Calvin is so spot on when he says there is no such thing as veneration its
    means the SAME THING !!! — bowing down to or falling down; kissing, touching,
    wiping handkerchiefs to be healed or prosper—

    whether it be God or a creature that is imaged, the moment you fall prostrate
    before it in veneration, you are so far fascinated by superstition. For this
    reason, the Lord not only forbade the erection of statues to himself, but also
    the consecration of titles and stones which might be set up for adoration. For
    the same reason, also, the second commandment has an additional part concerning
    adoration. For as soon as a visible form is given to God, his power also is
    supposed to be annexed to it. So stupid are men, that wherever they figure God,
    there they fix him, and by necessary consequence proceed to adore him. It makes
    no difference whether they worship the idol simply, or God in the idol; it is
    always idolatry when divine honours are paid to an idol, be the colour what it
    may. And because God wills not to be worshipped superstitiously whatever is
    bestowed upon idols is so much robbed from him

    Praying to Mary
    or Joseph or any that is physically dead is an abomination to the Father,” he
    said, pointing to Deuteronomy 18:11-12, which forbids communicating with the

    Romans 3:9-10 &12, Romans 3:23 – There is none
    righteous, no, not one, there is none who does good, no not one. For ALL
    have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. (The catholic church has
    put Mother Mary on a pedestal and taught that she is without sin, that is not
    true. I John 1:8 & 10- The catholic church has added this to the bible)

    Romans 10:11 – And every priest stands ministering daily and
    offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (the only person that you have to confess
    your sins too, is the Lord, God did not say that you had to go to a priest and
    confess, , yes, it does say to confess one to another, but when you go to a
    priest, you want him to absolve you of all sin, by works, he tells you go and
    do so many Hail Marys and do the rosary,
    so you can be forgiven, the catholic
    church added that to the bible)

    We are to confess our sins and needs
    to God alone. I John 1:9 If we confess our sins,God
    is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all

    Matthew 6:9, 12 – After this
    manner…pray ye: Our Father… forgive us…

    I John 2:1,
    ..-.And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the

  • disqus_23FzLxRDKW

    testing. i will remove this very shortly. thanks.