Muslim Men, Children Cut and Whip Their Bodies Bloody for Muhammad’s Grandson

AshuraA number of Shiite Muslim men and children around the world are in the midst of observing a 10-day Islamic festival in remembrance of Muhammad’s grandson—an event that involves cutting ones head with knives or spears or self-flagellating themselves with chains.

Online photos captured the bloodiness of the Muslim traditions surrounding the Day of Ashura, which marks the death of Husyn ibn Ali approximately 1,300 years ago. He was the son of Fatimah, Muhammad’s daughter, and was beheaded during the Battle of Karbala in 680 A.D.

To remember his death, many Shi’a Muslims (and some Sunnis, although bloodletting is discouraged) observe the Day of Ashura each year, generally in October or November. In countries such as Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Pakistan, the observance is considered a national holiday, which to some also is a time when Muslims seeks to shed blood as a means to obtain forgiveness for sins.

According to reports, the Day of Ashura was inspired by the Jewish holiday Yom Kippur, also known as the Day of Atonement. The Centre of Fatwa of the General Authority for Islamic Affairs and Awqaf issued an edict this week calling for fasting on the day, stating, “Fasting on the Ashura day is atonement for sins.” One Islamic saying also claims, “A single tear shed for Husayn washes away a hundred sins.”

However, bloodletting is also largely observed by adherents, often in groups and in the public square. In addition to cutting a gash in the forehead of children and babies, some children and adults voluntarily slash their bodies with knives or flagellate themselves with whips in order to reinact the death of Ali. Participants are seen in some cities walking the streets with blood staining their clothing and dripping from their head, chest and back.

According to the AFP, in Iraq, large crowds gathered in the streets on Saturday to observe the Islamic holiday, crying, beating their chests and cutting their heads until their faces and clothes were covered in blood.

“Many Shiite worshipers travel from neighboring Iran and other countries each year to visit the [Karbala] shrine, which lies about 80 kilometres (50 miles) southwest of Baghdad,” the outlet explained.

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“Millions of others across the Shiite world, from Lebanon to south Asia, hold processions in their home towns, performing a variety of rituals, many involving flagellation,” it continued. “Some beat their backs to a drumbeat using chains or blades. Others beat their heads with a sword until their faces and their white mourning robes are covered in blood.”

In Greece, hundreds of Muslims gathered in Piraeus to flagellate themselves, singing songs and beating their chests, with some covering their faces with mud, according to the Greek Reporter.

Photos were also captured of observers bloodying themselves in Bangladesh, Lebanon and Delhi.

Warning: Graphic video


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  • Nidalap

    Yep. They’ve been doing this for centuries now. Interesting in a documentary kind of way. Is it news? Meh…

    • Josey

      Yes, for a very long time.

  • Josey

    ah yes but according to a lot of people Islam is a religion of peace, says it is discouraged but apparently not discouraged really, is another lie…pffft…bloodletting is an occultic practice done for satanic power, it is evil not peaceful and another abomination to God.

    1 Kings 18:25-28 25 And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. 26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made. 27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. 28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
    Bloodletting was a familiar ritual among the prophets of baal, in it they thought they could obtain demonic power and here Elijah is ridiculing their false god baal so they begin to cut themselves hoping baal would answer. Glory to God only the one true God and Creator answered, the Great I Am answered!

    There are other scriptures that cutting of the flesh or blood-letting was common practice among the pagan, wicked nations.
    In Leviticus 21:5 and 6 the Lord condemns such demonic practices.
    5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh. 6 They shall be holy unto their God, and not profane the name of their God: for the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and the bread of their God, they do offer: therefore they shall be holy.

    Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

    Also a sign of demon possession is the cutting of oneself as in Mark 5:1-9 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. 2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

    Also interesting that the demons in this man ran out to worship Christ not because they loved Him but because they recognized Him as Lord and God.

    These people need deliverance from these demons that cause them to do this to themselves from True Lord God, Jesus. The last thing they need to be told is their religion is the same as Christianity and a religion of peace.

    • The Last Trump

      Nice job compiling scriptural references to prove your claim! I never realized these Islamic similarities to ancient pagan practices until you pointed it out.
      Once again revealing Islam to be what it truly is. Satanic.
      Thanks Josey! 🙂

    • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

      You did a great job with scriptures, Some of the stories in the old test are some of my favorites.

      • Josey

        ty, God is so Good! Your posts mean a lot to me too and encourage me so ty.

        • Kandy

          Your welcome. We need to encourage each other when we can.

        • LadyFreeBird<In God I Trust

          Your welcome. Reading your post encourages me too.and I thank you.

    • Dave_L

      Thanks for an interesting post. Do you think Believers can be possessed? Mary Magdalene is said to have had seven demons along with other women in her circle that ministered to Jesus. The Daughter of Abraham (believer) who Satan bound for 18 years. And the many who obviously believed or they would not have come to Jesus for deliverance. Also there’s mention that the doctrine of demons will be taught in some Churches in the later times. Just some questions I have. It seems it might not be only a Muslim problem.

      • Josey

        Luke 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
        Jesus set Mary free first and then she was able to minister to Him, she also loved Him much for she had been forgiven of much which is why it is said in Luke 7:47 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little, though it doesn’t specifically say this was Mary Magdalene and is only speculative but I believe it refers to her because of other passages.

        I don’t believe a child of God can be possessed by a demon for whom the Son sets free is free indeed and the Holy Spirit indwells a child of God and a demon and the Holy Spirit cannot reside together for a kingdom divided cannot stand.
        I was one who was deep into a wicked lifestyle at an early age, was taught it as a matter of fact growing up, very rebellious but at the age of 20 Christ changed my life, glory to His Name 4ever and I am sure many demons left immediately the moment I accepted Christ for I didn’t have the same compulsions and had a new desire to live pleasing to God, that was deliverance but I still had to deal with oppressive spirits which as a young babe in Christ I didn’t know what was going on and it took God to show me what was happening, the devil hates when he loses a soul and God wins so he tries to take back that one or he will try to paralyze them with oppressive thoughts and fear, that is different and some in the church claim they need deliverance from those demons that oppress and they claim it is not demon possession but demons manifesting in the flesh, not sure what they mean by that for they still cast demons out and it sounds like the same thing, just that they are saying the person’s spirit isn’t possessed but their flesh is. I don’t agree with that at least not with the limited knowledge I have about it. I have been to services where a minister claimed to have a deliverance ministry and that was all he did, spent hours casting out demons but what one of the things and there wasn’t just one thing but one thing that I found troubling about it all was he would converse with demons and ask them questions and demons lie so why he would believe anything they had to say is beyond me and I don’t see in God’s word where Jesus conversed with them or His apostles, Jesus asked the name in the one with the legion but usually He told them to be silent and just come out and so did the apostles, seemed like the guy was on some power trip to me but that is just my opinion and he worked with certain people (christians) for months casting out demons out of them which I found strange.
        I just trust in God and I do believe that sometimes a child of God struggles and needs the help of another child of God to pray and rebuke a devil who is attacking them in some way but I don’t believe they are possessed and I think there is much confusion caused in the church by those who may mean well but tell a struggling child of God that they need deliverance from demons when they just need prayer and encouragement and need to be taught how to fight the battle with the word of God which is the sword of the spirit.
        I have had to learn to submit to God and resist all thoughts contrary to His word and to stand on God’s word even when I have felt paralyzing fear, can’t say I am there yet, far from there, it is a work being completed, all praise to God.
        I do think a child of God can be oppressed by an evil spirit and they need to take thoughts captive and renew their mind and submit to God and resist the devil for he will flee from them when they do this.
        As far as physical ailments go like the woman bound with one for 18 yrs, You have to remember Jesus hadn’t finished the work of the cross as of yet to where a person could be born again through the Holy Spirit even though she was a daughter of Abraham in which Jesus made a point of saying to those hypocritical pharisees who didn’t give a hoot about that poor woman, they just wanted to trip Jesus up.
        I don’t know the answer to those with physical ailments as to why some are healed and some not till they get to Heaven. I am a diabetic and have been praying for healing since being diagnosed with this dreadful disease and I have prayed for healing for others, some are healed immediately and then others not. I don’t know the answer as to why, I just keep on keeping on and trust the Lord’s promise to me in Jeremiah 33:3 that if I call upon Him He will show me great and mighty things that I know not of and there is much I know very little of and need Him to show me. But I do get why you would ask this question. I just don’t have any more answers than what I gave, something maybe you should keep praying about and seeking God for the answer on.

        • Dave_L

          Thanks for the reply. While I agree that we have power over Satan and his hosts, we are engaged in spiritual battles that can suffer losses.

          Some believe that a Christian can loose their salvation. So it would make sense that these could become demon possessed and end up far worse than those who never knew Christ.

          Others believe those who are Born Again can never loose their salvation but could become sinful enough to wind up like the Corinthian brother who the church delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. That was for the purpose of saving his soul. Later we read how he overcame per John; “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4)

          .

          Paul tells us; “Neither give place [habitation] to the devil.” (Ephesians 4:27)

          The word for “place” = ① an area of any size, gener. specified as a place of habitation. BDAG Lexicon.

          We know there are doctrines of demons throughout Christendom today as there are in history. Many who I believe are saved, nontheless have their minds and wills controlled by the lies they believe. But as we continue to study and discern the truth, the extent of damage becomes more obvious.

    • Phipps Mike

      oh, but God wanted people to kill their own children for him. Nice attempt at trying to make Christianity look all squeaky clean.

    • Becky

      Amen, Josey!

  • bowie1

    An attempt to get accepted by God through works righteousness.

  • Nidalap

    Ooh! Hey, can we draw this guy? He’s not under the same prohibition as grandpa, right? 🙂

  • Phipps Mike

    wow! they are ALMOST as quacky as fundamentalist Christians!

    • bowie1

      I don’t recall Christians engaging in self flagulation.

      • Phipps Mike

        The Flagellation refers in a Christian context to the Flagellation of Christ, an episode in the Passion of Christ prior to Jesus’ crucifixion. The practice of mortification of the flesh
        for religious purposes was utilized by some Christians throughout most
        of Christian history, especially in Catholic monasteries and convents.

        In the 13th century, a group of Roman Catholics, known as the Flagellants,
        took this practice to its extreme ends. The Flagellants were later
        condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as a cult in the 14th century
        because the established church had no other control over the practice
        than excommunication.[citation needed] Self-flagellation remains common in the Philippines, Mexico, and one convent in Peru”

        Catholics ARE a Christian sect. Catholics are the ORIGINAL Christians..

        • bowie1

          Catholicism came several centuries later, adding in man made doctrines later such as the intercession of the saints, the immaculate conception to name a few examples.

          • Phipps Mike

            ALL Christians believe in Immaculate conception.

          • bowie1

            Protestants don’t believe in the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary. She was a sinner like the rest of us needing Jesus to save her. Jesus alone was born and lived without sinning.

          • Phipps Mike

            what church did YOU go to?! I am 52 and EVERY Christian I know believes in the immaculate conception of Mary. And I was raised a Baptist. To NOT believe would make you a non Christian because if Jesus wasnt from God impregnating Mary, he wouldnt be the Messiah. Oh, and I AM a Protestant.

          • bowie1

            Christian Reformed which is similar to Presbyterian and our beliefs are summarized in the Apostles Creed.

          • Phipps Mike

            I just found something out that I didnt know before. “The Immaculate Conception is commonly and mistakenly taken to mean the
            conception
            of Mary’s son Jesus Christ in her own womb, and the virgin birth of
            Jesus. These are covered by the doctrine of the Incarnation, while the
            Immaculate Conception deals with the conception of Mary herself, not
            that of her son.”

            So I was in error. My apologies. I was
            referring to JESUS not having a physical Dad. Not Mary. So I will
            rephrase. ALL Christians I know believe that Jesus was born from VIRGIN
            Mary. (no physical Dad).

          • bowie1

            You got it!

        • Dave_L

          “…. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26)

        • MamaBear

          If any modern denomination had claim to being “original Christians,” it would be the Greek Orthodox who still use even use the original Greek for their Bibles and in their services. But even they have added much that is not Biblical.
          The fact is that true Christianity does not depend on having a direct unbroken line, but on being true to the teachings of Jesus and His apostles as recorded in the Scriptures.
          Flagellation is not taught in the Scriptures and is not a part of true Christianity.

          • Phipps Mike

            “Flagellation is not taught in the Scriptures and is not a part of true Christianity.”
            the point is that Bowie claimed Christians didn’t do that. I provided proof that they DO. Not that they were TAUGHT to.

          • Curiousbill

            In the Philippines during Holy Week thousands of Christians flagellate themselves.
            As far as them not being True Christians well, they think they are and I am not so proud as to tell them they’re wrong.

        • Angel Jabbins

          The Catholic Church is heretical and does not adhere to the gospel of salvation through Christ alone…so therefore is not a true Christian denomination. They teach the Church saves you with Christ’s help as you do good works and participate in the sacraments. Salvation is earned and only possible through the Church…its rituals and sacraments.The Bible teaches just the opposite: salvation by Christ alone though faith alone by grace alone. Pretty big difference. I was a very devoted Catholic many years before becoming a true Christian…went to Catholic schools right up through college…taught in Catholic school. I know all about what the Catholic Church teaches and it is not biblical Christianity. I worshiped and prayed to Mary and to saints…that is idolatry. And Jesus does not need to be sacrificed over and over in the Mass daily. He died once for all and said ‘It is finished.’ No need for anymore sacrifices by a ‘priest’. Jesus died and paid for the debt of sin we owe. Salvation is found in Him alone…not through Mary as Co-Redemptix, making her equal with Christ….heresy! Glad to be out of all that. Just reading the Bible opened my eyes.

          • Phipps Mike

            you have two sentences that will spell out a slight contradiction and at the same time, say what I want YOU to understand:
            “The Catholic Church is heretical and does not adhere to the gospel of
            salvation through Christ alone…so therefore is not a true Christian
            denomination”
            and
            “. I was a very devoted Catholic many years before becoming a true Christian”
            Now THINK about the definition of “protestant Christian”. A protestant protests SOME of the doctrine of the CATHOLIC Christian religion.

            So therefore, if you scrap Catholicism TOTALLY as Christianity, you have to scrap Christianity’s overlapping beliefs of the Catholic religion as well. This is NO different than differences between Lutheran Christianity vs Fundamentalist Christianity (Evangelists). They are ALL Christianity but with a few differences.

            The point here is that what I originally said is 100% true about flagellation. Roman Catholics (one of the Christianity denominations), had those who flagellated. There is no argument here, It is a FACT.

            I think some people really need to get off their vain high horses and STOP trying to say that only THEIR religion is the TRUE religion and RESPECT other peoples rights to differences in beliefs. If other Christian denominations believe in the same God that you do, just WHY does it matter? The LITTLE differences really dont matter in the grand scheme of things.

          • Angel Jabbins

            Mike, here you are an atheist (or agnostic) trying to give me a lecture on what Christianity is. How many times have you read the Bible through cover to cover? Since coming to true faith in Christ (after leaving the false apostate Catholic Church), I have read the Bible cover to cover 8 times and the N.T. dozens of time. I think I know what biblical Christianity teaches by now. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to flagellate ourselves. That is totally contrary to the gospel message. It is heretical teaching just like the Catholic Church from which that practice originated.The Catholic Church teaches a person is saved by doing penance for their sins. Biblical Christians don’t need to do penances or perform sacramental rituals. The Bible says we are saved by what Christ did on the cross…’by grace alone and not of ourselves’.

            They are not little differences. They are huge differences. You judge wrongly because you have not studied what true Christianity teaches and, to do that, you have to study the Bible. Any church calling itself Christian that does not adhere to and follow the Bible exclusively as the infallible Word of God is not Christian. It is a cult. I was in that cult so I know the difference…and, I am telling you, it is huge.

          • Phipps Mike

            your reply is wrong on SO many levels. First I want to point out that you make GUESSES about who I am and what I know in as far as my knowledge of religion. That’s called making a “straw man” argument.
            I was RAISED a Baptist and attended Church REGULARLY.
            In no place did I say that the Bible says we should flagellate. I pointed out that Roman Catholics just DID so and whether you like it or not, Catholics ARE Christians. You are A DUNCE if you dont understand that. What do you think a Protestant is? Its a protest of the Catholic teaching. It still is the SAME story and the same God. You are proving to be condescending to the 100th power by not only trying to minimize Catholics, but by TRYING to say what i know or dont know, Get over yourself already. Like I said : GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE
            “They are not little differences. They are huge differences.”
            I wasnt talking about between Catholics and Protestants. Keep up. I was talking about all of the sub classifications of Christianity as compared to fundamentalists…which brings me to: “Any church calling itself Christian that does not adhere to and follow
            the Bible exclusively as the infallible Word of God is not Christian.”
            WRONG!!!!
            What you describe is only FUNDAMENTAL Christianity. Lutherans are TRUE Christians and they do not believe in fundamentalism.
            I have my own moniker for these two types: Lutherans=common sense Christians. Fundamentalists: Moonbat idiots with NO sense of reality whatsoever. They all need de-programmed. Fundamentalism is the TRUE cult.

          • Angel Jabbins

            Just being raised in a Baptist church does not make one a Christian nor does it necessarily follow that, by attending church, you will know what true Christianity is all about. Was the Bible taught and preached? You cannot know Christianity without reading and studying what the Bible teaches. Without it, you just have offshoots adhering to some things, rejecting others based on the traditions of men.

            You have no idea if you think the Catholic Church is a Christian church. I just don’t know what else I can say. You are not listening. The protest by Martin Luther was over a make-it-or- break-it doctrine (a big deal!)…how one attains eternal life. (Could any doctrine be more important than that?!) As I have stated over and over again, the Catholic Church places burdens on people, telling them they must do certain things, follow rituals, sacraments, baptism in order to be saved….that what Christ did on the cross was not enough to save them. Catholics must work hard to do enough penance and good works to help God out in saving them. They even teach there is a place called purgatory where people must do even more penance before they can get into heaven. The Bible does not teach that! That is damnable heresy and anyone believing that is on their way to hell. Christ’s death on he cross paid our sin debt in full. It is blasphemy to try to add to what God has already done. You can reject what I am telling you it if you want, but that is the truth. I was a Catholic…educated all my growing up years through college in that church so I do know what it teaches.

            So talking about Catholics flagellating themselves is meaningless to me. Jesus didn’t teach it. It is not in the Bible…not something I would ever do or feel I needed to do as a believer in Christ….so I don’t get what is your point is in bringing it up. It reflects poorly on one group only…the Catholic Church…an apostate form of Christianity which was warned about in 2 Peter, 1 Timothy, and Galatians.

          • Phipps Mike

            Yes. We learned DIRECTLY from the Bible. Once again, you are ALL suppositions. Quit it already.
            “the Catholic Church places burdens on people, telling them they must do
            certain things, follow rituals, sacraments, baptism in order to be
            saved.”
            The SAME as fundamentalist Christians such as yourself, The Bible DOES teach that you seek redemption by asking for forgiveness and live by the many rules the Bible provides.
            Hate to tell you this but: “..that what Christ did on the cross was not enough to save them.” is a LUTHERAN belief, NOT a fundamentalist belief. You dont know your own religion .
            “That is damnable heresy and anyone believing that is on their way to hell.”
            when DID you become God and make that up? Once again, you are professing to be the ONLY religion that is true and yet you dont even KNOW what religion you are.

            “So talking about Catholics flagellating themselves is meaningless to me.
            Jesus didn’t teach it. It is not in the Bible…not something I would
            ever do or feel I needed to do as a believer in Christ….so I don’t get
            what is your point is in bringing it up”

            I brought it up because Catholics ARE Christians. Give it up, Dummy.

            “Christianity has divided into three major branches over the
            centuries. Over the centuries, Christianity has divided into numerous
            denominations. Each denomination has its own distinctive beliefs or
            practices, but they are generally considered a branch of mainstream
            Christianity if they agree on core doctrines like the divinity of Jesus
            Christ and the authority of the Bible. Relationships between
            denominations range from mutual respect and cooperation to denial that the other group is really “Christian.”

            The three main branches of Christianity are Roman Catholicism,
            Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestant. Some regard Anglicanism as a fourth branch that fits in none of these categories, while others categorize it as Protestant.”

            http://www.religionfacts . com/christianity/branches

            now stop embarrassing yourself.

          • Angel Jabbins

            Mike, with all due respect, the only one embarrassing himself here is you! You have no understanding of what true Christianity is. And how can you, when you are so biased and prejudiced against it that you will not open your mind to even investigate it beyond what some nominal, secular website tells you it is? I repeat my initial question to you…have you read the Bible cover to cover even one time? Even just the N. T. alone? If not, then how can you claim to know what it teaches.

            You stated: “The SAME as fundamentalist Christians such as yourself, The Bible DOES teach that you seek redemption by asking for forgiveness and live by the many rules the Bible provides. Hate to tell you this but what Christ did on the cross was enough to save them.”

            That is totally incorrect!! That IS was Catholicism and all other religious systems teach…. ‘Ask forgiveness and then if you are good and do good works, you will get to heaven’. That is NOT Christianity. That is blasphemy! The Bible teaches that we are justified (saved) by faith in Christ ALONE–and not by works. Here is it is right out of the Bible:

            Gal. 2:16, “nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.”

            Rom. 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. ”

            Rom. 5:1, “therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

            Rom. 11:6, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

            Rom. 4:5, “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.”

            Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast.”

            Phil. 3:9, “and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.”

            There are even many more verses I could quote. There are two aspects to Christianity that people confuse…justification and sanctification.

            Justification is what makes us right with God…. whereby we are saved and assured of heaven. Our justification is through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE without any good works done on our part….at all…period. Jesus did all the saving. He lived a perfect live…did all the good works for us…and then He credits His righteousness to us freely as a gift. We can do nothing to save ourselves. That is what makes the gospel such good news! God loves so much that He gave His Son to earn salvation for us. We do (and can do) nothing to earn it. It is the free gift of God to us.

            After we are saved, we enter into the process of sanctification. Because of all Christ as done for us and in our gratitude to Him, we then strive to be good and to do good works in order to grow in godliness. We do so with with the help of the Holy Spirit that now resides in us. Our good works do not earn salvation. We already have that. Good works will earn us rewards in heaven, but not heaven itself. Our place in heaven has already been secured by Christ. We do not do good works to keep ourselves saved either. Good works and holy living are evidences of salvation, not the means of salvation.

            I was a Catholic for 30 years…a very devout one, attending Mass weekly and often daily, educated in Catholic schools….lived with nuns in a Catholic boarding school during high school…graduated from Catholic College, taught in a Catholic school…went on retreats with the Sisters of Mercy for two summers. If anyone knows what Catholicism teaches, I do. I was about as Catholic as you can get. But God saved me out of that false religion when I started to read a bible someone gave me. As Catholics, we never read from the bible ourselves… only heard snippets of it during Mass. You say you were taught DIRECTLY from the bible in you Baptist church. Preachers and priests can take verses out of context an twist them to mean something that was never intended. Hearing sermons is not enough. One has to read the bible for themselves and test what they are being taught by what it says, just like the Bereans tested what Paul taught them by the scriptures. We can trust the scriptures. Jesus taught the Apostles and commissioned them to spread the gospel and to write it down. You cannot understand Christianity if you do not know what the bible teaches. It is the foundation laid down by Jesus Christ Himself.

            Is Roman Catholicism and Christianity the same thing? (Article by a Christian theologian and apologist)

            https://carm. org/is-catholicism-christian

            What more can I say. You have obviously been hurt by people calling themselves Christians and your bias is very strong. All I can do is pray you will check it out on your own and not just swallow things you have read and heard or even experienced. Go to the bible and see what God says and shut out all the other voices.
            You are in my prayers.

          • Phipps Mike

            How can I be any clearer than what I have been? Maybe different wording may make you understand. As I have already PROVIDED proof that Catholic is one of the three Christian denominations, your argument is that the doctrine is not the same as YOUR faction of Christianity. Well of course, but it IS still ONE OF THE THREE FORMS. This has been my ONLY point and yet you want to attack Catholicism even with that provided.
            My problem isnt with Christians, its with the oppression and interference into peoples PERSONAL lives that SOME Christians practice as if they have the right. Only GOD has that right, There is no argument for that. Only GOD is worthy. EVERY mortal man is EQUIVALENT. Nobody is better than anybody else.
            Personally, I think you may be somewhat close to the mark of where you should be but it sounds like you think its just fine and dandy to sin if you so desire whenever you choose just because you have faith.
            So the ten commandments are not to be followed if you have faith, according to you.
            Just remember, UNTIL judgement day, NOBODY knows whose form of religion is right, its ALL faith and NO facts.

          • Angel Jabbins

            And I don’t know how I can be clearer than I have already been, Mike. Catholicism may have started out as biblical back in the early centuries, but it quickly wandered from the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. One can not be saved by practicing/adhering to Catholic teachings. Faith PLUS works will not save anyone. Every false religion in the world today says the same thing…believing and doing good works is the way to heaven. That is not the Orthodox Biblical Christianity taught by Christ’s Apostles. People can call themselves Christians all they want to, but what does the Bible says a Christian is? That is what really counts. There are lots of false converts going around today teaching all kinds of heretical things.

            I tried to explain the difference between justification and sanctification. Being saved by Christ alone does not mean we then have a license to just go out and sin all we want to. (Romans 6: 1-4 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” And verses 12-13 “Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.…” All of Romans Chapter 6 speaks to your concern about sinning after coming coming to Christ by faith alone. Have you read it?

            No true Christian will WANT to do that because we have the Holy Spirit living within us now who convicts of sin. As a Christian, I am more aware now than ever of my sinful nature and fight harder to overcome it….and more grieved by my sin when I do fail. In the book of James, he talks about how we will know someone is truly a Christian. He explains we will know by the person’s works. If a person claims to be saved and then keeps on sinning without any concern at all about it…never repents….that person is not saved. We will all struggle against sin all our lives because we are still sinners. Falling into sin occasionally and then repenting and moving forward is very different than someone who claims to be a Christian who then keeps on sinning like it is no problem at all. According to James, we are to question the validity of that person’s salvation.

            The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and that salvation is a free gift we receive by faith (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9). When we accept Jesus, we are accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins by faith. We are trusting Jesus alone for salvation. When we do this, the Holy Spirit lives in us. Since the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8), we then seek to please God and avoid sin. It is a natural result of being saved.

            No, accepting Jesus does not mean that we can then go out and sin. It means we have turned from sin, and we are new creatures who desire to bring glory to God and not use the grace of God to sin.

            Again, I must caution you, stop reading articles about these issues. Open the Bible, read it for yourself and see if it agrees with all these other sources you are reading. The Bible, after all, is where Christianity came from…the God inspired writings of the Apostles. If they got it wrong, we are in big trouble. They didn’t get it wrong. People who have deviated from it…those are the ones leading others astray….the the apostate Catholic Church. I don’t what the ‘three forms of Christianity are that you speak of…could it be Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and Orthodox Catholic…are those the 3 forms? There is only one true Christianity…Biblical Christianity. Even many Protestant churches today no long teach the true gospel and many who attend those churches are not truly saved or born again. Sadly so.

            Mike, if you wait until Judgment Day to find out which religion is right, it will be too late. There will be no second chances. If you are wrong, it will have eternal consequences. God gave us the Bible, the ability to read and understand what it says. All the answers are there. So many think they know what Christianity teaches, some criticize, mock it, and totally misrepresent what it teaches. And all the while they have never even bother to open The Book and read it for themselves. Yet they think they know all about it….experts…but they are sadly deceiving themselves. Get it settled now…this side of eternity while there is still time to be saved.

          • Phipps Mike

            wow!!! we are finally making some headway. Here are the things I agree with:
            “Catholicism may have started out as biblical back in the early
            centuries, but it quickly wandered from the pure gospel of Jesus Christ.
            One can not be saved by practicing/adhering to Catholic teachings.
            Faith PLUS works will not save anyone. Every false religion in the world
            today says the same thing…believing and doing good works is the way
            to heaven”

            ” People can call themselves Christians all they want to, but what does
            the Bible says a Christian is? That is what really counts.”

            “Being saved by Christ alone does not mean we then have a license to just go out and sin all we want to”

            ” If a person claims to be saved and then keeps on sinning without any
            concern at all about it…never repents….that person is not saved.”

            ” accepting Jesus does not mean that we can then go out and sin. It means we have turned from sin, and we are new creatures who desire to bring glory to God and not use the grace of God to sin.”

            Now the following statement is where I have a problem with your beliefs:

            ” There is only one true Christianity…Biblical Christianity.”

            As I said before, NOBODY knows what is true and what isn’t. Therefore, your belie is MERELY faith and NOT fact. To this day, there is not a person on earth that can PROVE where we came from.

            Aside from that last statement, we are in enough agreement that we can close this exchange satisfactorily.

          • Angel Jabbins

            And double wow from me, Mike. I am glad we see eye to eye on those things.

            I don’t agree that we cannot know what is true. I believe truth CAN be known and that is why God wrote the bible to reveal it to us. There can only be one truth…so every religion cannot be true. It is a matter of finding out which one is the truth. Yes, faith certainly does come into it. Absolutely and even that is a gift from God. He said Seek and you will find (the truth). Ask and you will receive. If we seek the truth with all our hearts, He will reveal it and grant us the faith to believe.

            I recently read a good article about absolute truth…does it exists and can it be known? You might take a look at it. It is two pages so just click on ‘page 2’ when you finish the first page. It is here: http: //www.allaboutphilosophy. org/absolute-truth.htm (just loose the spaces). It comes at the issue from the aspect of logic and philosophy.

            Great conversation. Thanks for bearing with me and staying with it. Take care!

          • GibbyD

            I am sure you know where the term comes from. You sound informed enough coming from a Baptist background. There are so many varieties of Baptists though. Which one did you come out of? Regular, American , Southern , Independent ? There are more as you know. The Fundamentals of the Faith are simply , The Deity of Christ , The Inspiration of God of The Scriptures and their final authority as to what is God’s revealed Truth. Salvation by grace through faith . There are a couple more important ones but these are the fundamental truths and believing in them makes one a “Fundamentalist” . I would guess though that you might be associating other things that may accompany some that call themselves fundamentalists and have a problem with those other things and not true Fundamentalism itself. Am I right?

          • Phipps Mike

            I am a PREVIOUS Protestant Baptist. Now I am more aligned with Lutheran ELCA.

          • GibbyD

            I can’t say that I am Protestant because I never was Catholic. My parents attempted to raise my sisters and i in the Missouri synod lutheran denomination. During their divorce my mom went to the Pastor of that church seeking marriage counseling but was told by the Reverend that he did not want to get involved. Our family never went back, my parents divorced and I did not really trust Christ and believe the Gospel till 10 years later at the age of 19. I heard a message from Josh McDowell that spoke to my heart and it encouraged me to read the Bible for myself. I saw that I was a sinner and needed to trust in Christ and what He did for me on the cross when He bore in His own body the sins of the world . Instead of believing it in my head , I ” obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered unto me” ( Roman 6:17)KJB. I know my grandmother was praying for me too. She was saved out of Romans Catholicism and was a member of a Independent Baptist church. i also thank all those born again believers that has witnessed to me over the years. From there i attended Charismatic, Baptist, mainline denominational and other kinds of Christian assemblies. I was able to gain a few years of training at a good Bible college and today I am in fellowship at an assembly that are gathered unto and in the Name of The LORD Jesus Christ where we seek His headship, leadership as The Bishop alone of our souls. That in all things He may have the preeminence. He indeed is our Shepherd , not a man. We are thankful though for those that are gifted among us and that labor in the Word and doctrine but is not placed on one man’s shoulders to all the word of the ministry. We believe in the priesthood of all believers thus all the men come prepared and participate as The LORD leads. The Word of God is our final authority. We do not believe in the Bible alone but The Bible supreme.

            “For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.” ( 1 Peter 2:25)KJB

            “And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” ( Colossians 1:18)KJB

            “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” ( Matthew 18:20)KJB

            “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:” ( 1st Peter 1:9)KJB

            God hates the deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans ( Rev.2:6,14,15)KJB

          • Becky

            Amen! Praise God Almighty through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

        • ppp777

          Don’t relate the catholic cult with Christianity , they are polar opposites .

  • afchief

    Is there any doubt that Islam is straight from the pits of hell???

  • FoJC_Forever

    People will mock Islam and the many practices it holds. Just because they mock Islam, don’t be fooled into believing they know and follow the Truth, who is Jesus (the) Christ. The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend. People will pose as enemies of that which Christians are to resist and reject just to gain advantage so they can infuse their unbelief into Christian’s lives.

    Follow Jesus, find Wisdom.

  • Cady

    This sounds a lot like the annual Good Friday traditions in the Philippines when some christians beat themselves and even endure semi-mock crucifixion.

    People are the same the world over. There are people in every culture who take self denial to awful extremes.

    • Dave_L

      Jesus taught us to deny self. It is quite different from “self denial”. To deny self deals with the root cause of sin. Self denial merely prides itself in dealing with the effects.

  • ppp777

    I have always suspected a very strong connection between islam and the catholic cult , and I don’t mean the inquastion