Texas Teen Says Teacher Told Students to Deny God in Assignment or Fail

Wooley-compressedKATY, Texas — A Texas teen says that her teacher told students this week that they must deny God in their reading class or fail the assignment.

Jordan Wooley, a seventh grade student at West Memorial Junior High School in Katy, spoke before the school board Monday night to tell her story.

“Today I was given an assignment in school that questioned my faith and told me that God was not real,” she said. “Our teacher had started off saying that the assignment had been giving problems all day. We were asked to take a poll to say whether God is fact, opinion or a myth and she told anyone who said fact or opinion was wrong and God was only a myth.”

The assignment provided several statements about various subjects, and asked students to classify them as either a factual claim, a commonplace assertion or an opinion. The statement at issue simply said, “There is a God.”

Wooley said that a number of students objected to her teacher’s assertions that God was a myth, but the teacher would not have it.

“She started telling kids they were completely wrong and that when kids argued we were told we would get in trouble,” she stated. “When I tried to argue [in favor of God’s existence], she told me to prove it.”

Wooley explained that one of her friends, who went home crying, wrote on her paper that God was fact, but her answer was marked as being incorrect.

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“She turned in her paper, and she had still put that God was a fact and to be true, and my teacher crossed the answer out several times to tell her it was completely wrong,” she said.

“Another child in my class asked the teacher if we could try to put what we believe in the paper, and she said you can if you want to get the problem wrong … [but] you’ll fail the paper if you do,” Wooley told the board.

She explained that she believed how the teacher handled the matter was wrong.

“I had known before that our schools aren’t really supposed to teach us much about religion or question anything about religion,” Wooley said. “When I asked my teacher about it she said it doesn’t have anything to do with religion because the problem was just saying there is no God.”

The Katy Independent School District has now released a statement about the matter, advising that two students had contacted the principal about the matter, resulting in an investigation.

“At the conclusion of the investigation today, the principal determined that the classroom activity included an item that was unnecessary for achieving the instructional standard,” it stated. “The activity, which was intended to encourage critical thinking skills and dialogue by engaging students in an exercise wherein they identified statements as fact, opinion, or common assertion was not intended to question or challenge any student’s religious beliefs…”

The district remarked that the teacher herself is a Christian, and that the assignment has been misunderstood. However, it advised that the lesson has been scrapped and noted that action will be taken in the matter.

“The teacher is distraught by this incident, as some commentary has gone as far as to vilify her without knowing her, her Christian faith, or the context of the classroom activity,” it wrote. “Still, this does not excuse the fact that this ungraded activity was ill-conceived and because of that, its intent had been misconstrued. As a result, the activity will no longer be used by the school, and appropriate personnel action will be taken.”

“The school regrets any misconceptions that may have resulted from this teacher-developed classroom activity and assures its school community that the religious beliefs of all students and staff are welcomed and valued at Memorial Junior High,” the district said.


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  • TMcG

    The assignment was not intended to challenge the student’s religious belief’s…the teacher is a Christian….the assignment has been misunderstood…rrriiiiiiiiiiight. Way to put the spin on it!

    • Artimus Clyde

      Spin? How is that spin? Those are the actual events that transpired. Do you know of another lineage of events?

      • Jean Adams

        Artimus Clyde ..
        TMcG is being ironic in saying it’s spin when it obviously isn’t.

        • TMcG

          It is most definitely a spin. Read my response above, please. The riiiiight was meant to convey the sarcasm. Apparently it didn’t.

      • Michael Sucacin

        If you are a true Christian you would not deny that there is a God. The way this teacher spoke and denounced God it is wrong.

        • TMcG

          Absolutely spot on, Michael!

        • Chris

          “Do not judge or you too will be judged” Matthew 7: 1

          Could you explain how that applies to your words?

    • wandakate

      Black is actually red, and we are all “color blind”, and that is why we perceive black as red, instead of the black that it really is.
      And the moon is made out of yellow cheese, and it has holes in it like Swiss cheese, we just don’t see the holes…
      Oh please, how stupid do they think we are?????

  • bowie1

    This assignment would have the appearance of enforced atheism…not a good idea.

    • pinkcatmint

      The teacher is a Christian, not an Atheist. She wanted to encourage critical thinking and discussions by challenging the children.

      • Josey

        So she encourages critical thinking by refusing any answer other than “God is a myth” ? Doesn’t sound like a lesson in critical thinking to me. Wouldn’t a lesson in critical thinking be answering the question honestly and then discussing your reasons for the answer you give and not being failed for your honesty or told your answer is wrong?

      • bowie1

        Perhaps, but it sounds like she did not make that clear enough, and then reinforcing that idea by penalizing the students. It was a bad idea.

      • SuperSpeller

        You can lead a 7th Grader to knowledge, but you can’t make it think.

      • Dward

        The school board shut it down re-read the story. And the teacher is in trouble.

    • Zephammo

      I agree. While it is important to encourage critical thinking, refusing to accept the answer of a child who is religious was wrong. I’m not even religious myself (I am agnostic), but that question should have been replaced with something else. Perhaps using an ancient religious deity, such as Zeus, would have gone over better?

  • Josey

    Sounds like more of that crappy common core “education” that is government instituted. I am grateful my state has rejected common core at least for now they have. But not every teacher is a good teacher regardless of the curriculum. Parents need to know what their children are being taught in their classes and what is going on in their lives, help them with homework and you will find out what is being taught pretty quick and ask questions as to how their day went, kids tell it like it is if they know they can talk to you about anything. Best option is homeschooling but I get that not all parents have that option or can afford private Christian schooling so just keep an open dialogue with your kids.

    • Names_Stan

      Common core is not a curriculum. And the vast majority of people who fear it are victims of propaganda. This is exposed as the source of their fear with comments like “government instituted”.

      However, one product of meeting the standards is, it does require far more than memorizing notes for a test the next day. The fact that kids actually have to work for their grades gives parents a reason, either consciously or subconsciously, to believe the propaganda.

      • Jerry Hunter

        Common core is just a way of” Dumbing down” kids .There is no Common Core in Private schools ,,,schools for the elite

        • MamaBear

          Not all private schools are for the elite. I volunteer at a Christian school where about half the students are on financial scholarships, some as much as 100% of the tuition. I have heard that the Catholic school in my town recently started a similar scholarship program.

          • wandakate

            Once a Catholic, the most likely always a Catholic…that was stated by Pope John Paul.

          • MamaBear

            I know plenty of former Catholics who are now Evangelicals.

          • Basset_Hound

            Oh yes. Whether it’s a Life Group, a small group Bible Study, backstage between services, it seems that you can’t gather more than 10 people from our church together before you find at least one person who says “I was raised Catholic”.

          • MamaBear

            Yep, I know devout some Catholic parents who claim you constantly run into other Catholics who have at least one Evangelical among their kids. One devout Catholic friend has a son who is even a Baptist minister.

          • wandakate

            The HRCC is the “Mother Church” of all and all the rest of them are just sister churches. They all still follow some of her beliefs and all of her worldly pagan traditions…and holidays.

      • Josey

        oh what a crock but not surprised by your response since you are a shill, it is the federal government that has pushed it and what a mess for the states that accepted it and it has changed curriculum. Oh and I am being sarcastic in this next statement, yes, that is the reason some states have rejected it because they don’t want kids to work for their grades, my state has rejected it as I said in previous post and we have some of the highest grade points and testing stats in the U.S. enough said.

        • Names_Stan

          you are a shill

          Ad hominem aside, any person who believes “shills” are paid to comment on message boards like this are truly delusional.

          As critically important as you’re convinced these discussions are, I hate to ruin your perspective. But most stories on most sites average, what, a few dozen comments per story.

          And I doubt any comment I’ve ever made was read by more than a couple hundred people. The average reads might be 40.

          A belief in “shills” is stone cold proof of a person not grasping relativity. It would take a million paid people to make a wrinkle in public opinion. Kinda tough to hire a million people without this grand conspiracy being public in ten minutes.

          But common sense understanding never got in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

          my state has rejected it as I said in previous post and we have some of the highest grade points and testing stats in the U.S. enough said.

          The fact you think that is “enough said” betrays your own background in critical thinking, particularly evidentiary value.

          This issue, like so many others I see simplified beyond all reason by The Perpetually Certain every day, has smart people and reams of data and (actual) evidence on both sides.

          This lowering everything to the lowest common sound byte is the very reason we’re falling so far behind globally. Since folks can look their kids in the eye and claim the folks inside their home already know absolutely everything, the bar gets lower and lower.

          And someday most of those kids will see for themselves that they were cheated.

          • Josey

            I never said you were a paid shill.

          • Names_Stan

            By definition, an “unpaid shill” is exactly equal to everyone who ever posts on a message board.

            Seems a waste of good name-calling to generalize to that point.

        • wandakate

          Sounds like a teach “in control”. A teacher who is “programming” the students, one who is “brainwashing” them into a certain belief system.
          There is “nothing” good about common core or the new unisex bathrooms or letting girls shower with the boys or vise versa.
          It’s forcing them to accept one way of thinking which of course is what Hitler did with his people. In other words it’s all about
          “control”…These poor children won’t be able to think for themselves. They won’t be able to reason. They will only be able to say “I don’t know”.
          I know a wife like that, and each time you asked her anything she just looks at her husband and says, “Whatever ______ says? (husbands name in the blank).
          She only knows what he thinks, she can’t make her own decisions…pitiful.

    • Kandy

      My State has common core:( I believe what you said about it is true.

  • Mom Angelica

    You seriously have to keep watch on your children’s education, Satan is after them 24/7. I used to argue with my children’s RE. teachers continuously, the upshot being that the children could see how important it was in my eyes and 5 out of 6 are practicing.

    • afchief

      IMO putting your kids in public schools is child abuse. I have three children two were home schooled and one is in Christian school. There is NO comparison to the education they get.

      I was a youth pastor for 20 years. I have seen what public schools do to these kids.

      • Zephammo

        Comparing public schooling to child abuse it absolutely ridiculous.

        • The Last Trump

          You’re right.
          Public schooling is much, much worse.

          • Zephammo

            That’s horrible to say! I grew up experiencing abuse, and public school is not in any way shape or form comparable. It certainly leaves a lot to be desired but it is not abusive.

        • afchief

          Forced government schooling was never a good idea. It was conceived and controlled by the collectivists from its inception. Look, Public schools are teaching children that sex is good at the Kindergartner level and how to use contraceptives. California is teaching kids that Homosexuality is normal and soon coming to a Public school near you! All of this should be taught by the parent, NOT the schools. Also, why should the taxpayer pay for the schooling of people who never would give a penny voluntarily?

          PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE SOCIALISM! PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE CHILD ABUSE!

          • MamaBear

            Community supported public schools originated with the Puritans.

          • afchief

            Imagine that the Lord gave you a precious son and at 5 years old you made the decision to send him off to a public “school” where he will spend the next 13 years of his life. In this school they are taught lots of things.

            • They teach him that man came from apes and that life has no real meaning.
            • They teach him that the mention of God was illegal.
            • They teach him that there are many types of families and that they were all healthy.
            • They teach him that he was to accept all types of behaviors as normal.
            • They teach him not to judge other’s because there is no such thing as right and wrong.
            • They teach him that every type of behavior was normal but some needed “protection.”

            What if they told you your precious son was going to be included in a classroom with 20 other students, collected from around your community. Your son would spend 7 hours a day hanging out with these children yet:

            • You knew very little about any of the other children.
            • You didn’t know what kind of home life they came from.
            • You didn’t know if any of them were on any types of “medication.”
            • You knew nothing about the “behavior issues” some were dealing with.
            • You knew nothing about what they did in their spare time.
            • You knew nothing about their moral compass.

            While they were at the school you felt confident leaving them with the “teachers” even though:

            • You knew very little about the teachers’ personal beliefs.
            • You knew very little about the teachers’ personal lifestyle.
            • You knew very little about the personal stress the teacher was under.
            • You knew very little about what was actually being taught.
            • You knew very little about the condition of “others” in the teachers’ life.
            • You knew very little about what the teacher viewed in his/her private time.

            Imagine that:

            • Everyone in town knew where there were a bunch of little kids.
            • No weapons were on sight to protect them from an intruder and everyone knew it.
            . You forfeited your parental rights when the child walked into the school door.
            • Educational “experts” were permitted to do psychological studies on your child.
            • Non-medical experts were permitted to recommend “medication” to control behavior.
            • A child’s expression of religious beliefs was discouraged, and deviancy was accepted.

          • MamaBear

            I have had three children go through the public schools. I made a point of getting to know every teacher they had, every principal, of requesting teacher changes when necessary, of looking over homework and textbooks, of discussing with them anything that differed from our faith. And issues of school teaching contrary to our beliefs did come up. Was I successful in getting the teachers I wanted 100%? No, but I was a number of times.
            I think it may be easier in a small town to get to know teachers, to work with the schools. But then again, in a small town, you have fewer options. Perhaps, overall, values are more conservative than in larger cities. Or perhaps, more of us were involved in keeping our schools free of the worst of progressivism because we had no place else to turn to. We tried having me stay home with the kids, and it worked for a while, but after a few years, savings were eaten away by too many emergencies and a couple of lay-offs. Many of us considered middle class are in that position, where a second income is needed and mom just can’t stay home. It is even harder for low income families.
            I taught low income children during my career. Those children were every bit as precious to their parents as mine are to me and yours are to you. And single parents, parents on welfare, parents where both work but still qualify for food stamps, have no other options. My daughter teaches in a low income school, but in a large city rather than a small town. Last year, her principal was buying shoes out of his own money for some of the kids. Yes, there is real poverty in America. For the sake of those children who have no other options, we must continue to fight for our public schools. We also must do as the school where I volunteer does, set up scholarship programs to make Christian education more reachable to the low and middle income families.

          • afchief

            MamaBear, what is being taught to our kids in public schools today? Is it a well rounded education? Are they being taught business, our Founding Fathers, our constitutions, conservative government, wealth, intelligence, etc… or are they being indoctrinated by the government? Why has our education standing in the world dropped every year since Carter formed the Department of Education in 77?

            We could be teaching entrepreneurship in our schools. We could be teaching Americans how to create and manage wealth. We could be teaching kids how to think long term. Classes on small business ownership in every high school would help. We need a nation, and planet, full of logical rational people. We need each of us to understand how to thrive as responsible adults in a capitalist world. We need accounting and business math taught in our public schools. We need fundamental analysis taught. We need colleges to forget about general education and require students to earn a two-year degree in business before declaring their major. We need self-reliant wealth creators as citizens. Our public schools are controlled by Marxist Progressive Feminist meglomanical narcissistic Democrats. This is not a place for Christian kids.

            “To educate a person in the mind but not in morals is to educate a menace to society.” -Teddy Roosevelt.

          • wandakate

            Unfortunately it is the way it is, and I don’t know what on earth you or anyone else thinks he or she can do to stop the madness…

          • afchief

            First elect a president who will get rid of the Department of Education, Common Core and turn educating back to the states. Get rid of teachers unions everywhere. Hold teachers accountable for their actions. Let the parents decide what is taught in school. Vote on it!

            The education system in this country will not improve until our students are given a reason to work. Common Core is useless and dangerous…an indulgence to cultural fairness…a mistake and illogical!

          • wandakate

            Would you believe that the parent or guardian (whichever it is) sends the child to school in ragged or dirty clothes or shoes that have holes in them, but they are driving nice automobiles and they are smoking expensive cigarettes. SO, yes the children seem needy, but if you look at the caretaker you would wonder what’s going on!
            GOD will reward the principal, but the parents or guardians or caretakers are sure going to have some accounting to do.

          • MamaBear

            If you go to the neighborhood where my daughter teaches, you do not see many nice automobiles. It truly is a needy area. Many of the parents do not speak English well and will be stuck in low-paying jobs for life.
            I taught in low income schools, too, and I have seen what you are talking about where parents live well, but their kids are neglected. But, they are the exceptions. There really is genuine poverty as well.

          • Dward

            Yep….goes on and on, like kids are bullied and teacher never see’s it. You don’t spend that many hours with kids and not see what’s going on.

          • wandakate

            I personally DO NOT think it would be possible to know all of that information about all the students or the teachers etc. however I do see your logic here and it is food for thought.

          • Zephammo

            Im not even gonna write up an actual response to that because its clear that you are ignorant and probably unwilling to change that stance.

          • afchief

            The truth always offends! Does it not!!!!

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        Thanks for homeschooling – we did too!

      • MamaBear

        I agree that public schools can be bad. There are still some good ones, too. There are still Christians in the public school system, as well. (Real ones – not like the “God is a myth” one in this article. I taught in public schools and two of my kids are public school teachers.) But, if you have no choice but public schools, you must be vigilant. You need good communication with your kids so you know what is going on. You need good communication with the school system so when issues come up, and they will, you will be listened to.

        I am in a small town. It took my income as well as my husband’s for us to afford used cars and a small house, therefore we could not homeschool. The only alternative to public school was Catholic school, and for non-Catholics it was pretty expensive. Many people are in similar positions, so we need to be careful about saying Christians need to all homeschool or use Christian schools.

        I had to retire early due to health a few years ago. A Christian school was just starting in my community at the time. I have been volunteering there and I really wish I could have had that option for my kids. Heck, I wish I had had that option for my teaching career rather than the public schools. This school offers financial scholarships so families who otherwise can’t afford it, can go there.

        • afchief

          Sorry but I have to disagree. Common Core is being implemented across the country. It is EVIL!!! Controlling people starts young. Destroy their rational minds. Brainwash them. Indoctrinate them. Program them. Manipulate them. Get them used to “government personality cults.” Design group think for them. Condition them. Get them used to being abused. Dominate them. Get them used to government “thinking for them.” Choose the curricula. Design it for ultimate “mind control.” Use psychology against “the masses.” Use science against the masses. Warp all logic. Twist the truth. Lie, lie, lie, and lie some more. Study Nazism for ideas. Marxist Progressive Satanist Feminist Democrats want your children to be enslaved. As your kids grow, they will know nothing else. Your children will not know God. They will not know The Truth. They will not know reality. They WILL KNOW GOVERNMENT. They will know THEIR DEMOCRAT MASTERS. We must fight them. One or two generations of mindless addicted losers who have been brainwashed and programmed in the public schools is all that is needed. The Democrats are Marxists. Progressives are Marxists. Marxists are COMMUNISTS. We will become the Soviet Union.

          • MamaBear

            My children all went through public schools. As I said, we had no other choice. All three are devout Christians.
            What you describe is not how the public schools are that I taught in or that my kids teach in. I am not blind to the faults. Yes there are liberals and progressives among educators and yes we need to watch carefully what is happening in public schools. But there are also Christians and other conservatives in the schools still. A lot really depends a lot on which state as well as the values the local community tolerates. Parents do not have as big a voice as they used to, but we still have a voice, if we will use it.
            For many Christian families, home schooling or Christian schools just are not options. Nor are they a magic bullet that will guarantee children will come out committed Christians.

          • afchief

            As a youth pastor for 20 year I would say 3 to 5% of Christian teenagers did not bow the knee to peer pressure. I have seen even the strongest of Christian teenagers that I thought were on fire for God succumb to peer pressure in public schools.

            You are throwing your kids to the lions hoping they do not get devoured.

          • wandakate

            Parents should always have a voice. They should always be the main source of information for their children, otherwise peer pressure and the schools will take over their minds. A mind is a terrible thing to waste is it not?
            Schools are not what they used to be. I taught private school and licensed day care homes as well, and today it’s a totally different ball game.
            Parents must be on guard and involved in their children’s education. Not using their voices just says they are lazy and don’t care.

          • MamaBear

            Unfortunately, many parents are fearful of raising their voices. And many among the low income parents, who truly have no alternatives but public schools, are especially vulnerable to feeling intimidated. That is why it is important that the rest of us speak up about education. I believe in alternatives like private schools and home schooling, but they just won’t meet the needs of many low and middle income families.
            Many of the students my daughter teaches have poor English, even though they passed the test to be in a regular rather than ESL classroom. But the parents’ command of English is even worse. My daughter buys snacks to supplement the free breakfast and lunch. Her principal bought shoes for some kids last winter. The parents are not lazy, and they care, but they work at very low paying jobs and have little education themselves.
            I taught in low income rural schools. For a while, I even taught on a reservation. As a compassionate society, we must fight to have good public schooling for the children who have no other choices.

          • wandakate

            Oh goodness, we need some compassion don’t we?, but we also need to use some common sense and prevention.
            I would hope someone would see to it that these people have birth control and not bring innocent children into the world that they are NOT able to properly provide for. When the school administrator and teachers have to supplement food, shoes and school supplies b/c the parents can’t afford to buy them b/c they are uneducated and have low paying jobs then we have an issue that goes a tad deeper don’t we?
            These people don’t need to have children in the beginning. What they need to do is get a better education and be educated about birth control. And provided it with it if necessary.
            I do certainly believe in compassion for the children that we already have in the schools as ( I have 2 girls and 5 grandchildren), however I also strongly believe that they should not have children they can’t provide for (for whatever reason).
            Education is the key to many of societies problems. Even the Bible says, “My people perish for lack of knowledge”. Our educations is our knowledge and we need that in order to better take care of ourselves and those we bring into the world. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

          • MamaBear

            Careful! That poor people should not have children is the very argument abortionists make to defend abortions targeted to the poor and minorities. It is also the argument of Margaret Sanger who founded Planned Parenthood and pushed eugenics. And it is the justification used to force sterilization on huge numbers of women in our Native American tribes during the 40s, 50s, and 60s.

          • wandakate

            Sounds like something got twisted here. I DIDN”T say that poor people should not have children. I stressed that they need birth control until they have an education or a higher paying job so as to support those children.
            I do not want abortions or sterilizations either for anybody. Nobody is doing any child any good in life if they can’t have their basic needs met.
            People know they can’t support a child that they have and then they get pregnant with another one. If they can’t support one child, how are they going to support two of them?

          • wandakate

            You just took all that right out of my mouth…how dare you (laughing)…Well, you know what they say…When you know the TRUTH, the TRUTH will set you free.
            Right is now wrong, and wrong is now right. Mindless children, and the mind is such a precious thing to waste, but that is what is going on and I am a retired school teacher from pre-school to 2nd grade. Unfortunately today it is about controlling them into a certain mode of thinking so as to rule them.

          • afchief

            As a youth pastor for 20 years I had teenagers that had a hard time reading and writing. And our schools were ranked in the top 10 for the state of Florida.

        • wandakate

          If parents are not Catholic, why on earth would they enroll their children in a Catholic school…is one better than the public school system? Caution. Teachings are different than in a regular Christian school.

          • MamaBear

            Some Protestant and even Mormon parents actually enrolled their children in our local Catholic school, as the only other alternative to public schools was home schooling, where one parent has to be able to afford to stay home, or driving your child daily about an hour away to a Christian school in a larger city. (That would be 4 hours on the road each day for the parent – not very possible if you have a job or smaller children but I knew people who did it.)
            I know the Catholic teachings are different than in a Protestant or Evangelical Christian school.

      • wandakate

        Are you saying they ruin them, and dumb them down and program them, and indoctrinate them, brainwash them, and influence their thinking?????
        Okay, sound off. This forum is free thank the LORD.

    • SuperSpeller

      If you were a true Christian, you would remain silent and let men talk. 1 Timothy 2:12 AND 1 Corinthian 14:34 Now, say I’m right and mind your tongue, woman!

      • TMcG

        Idiot. You have zero credibility, considering that even Satan knows the Bible inside and out. You have to believe scripture to quote scripture…otherwise it’s as empty as your soul.

    • Kandy

      SuperSpeller wants to silence Women. There are a lot of Women God used in the Bible.Esther, Deborah, Rehab even Jesus did not treat Women like SuperSpeller does.If Esther kept she and her people would have died. P .S. this person is an Atheist so his word are empty.

      • SuperSpeller

        Hey, it’s YOUR book. Now, shut up and be quiet while men are talking.

        • Kandy

          You need to keep you nasty disgusting trap shut yourself. You must not know my Book/Bible. Your words to me as a Christian Woman is EMPTY. Atheist have no control over Christian Women. The only way to shut us up is though death. Are you willing to “KILL”us? If not then move on.

          • SuperSpeller

            The hate is strong in this one. Good, gooood.

          • Kandy

            The true hate seems to be with YOU> You are the one telling me and others to shut up. Is that an act of Kindness???????????? Look how you are talking to others before make a judgment. WE can defend ourselves and others from people like YOU.

          • SuperSpeller

            Hey, it’s your book. I’m just reminding you of what it says as you, in your hateful state, seem to have forgotten. Let she who is without sin cast the first stone.

          • Kandy

            You do not understand WHAT it says. So you unholy words are empty. Women are not to speak in Church is okay with me.Women really should not teach *Men*. That is okay with me. Right now I am not in Church nor am I teaching in Church to men. YOU are no ta Cristian. You can not silence me unless you take my life away from me. You can’t find me to take my life anyway. Have a great day hating Christians.

          • Dward

            I hear satan

  • Dave_L

    Since they report the teacher is a Christian, I would like to hear that side of the story before making any decisions.

  • Jeff Johnson

    I guess I don’t understand what a “Christian” is, then.

    • Jean Adams

      I think you do. It’s not someone who would ever deny God.

      • Kandy

        Amen.

      • SuperSpeller

        The same is true for Moslems, Hindus, Jews, and a plethora of other superstitions. Ooop! I meant to say “religions”.

  • Names_Stan

    “The activity, which was intended to encourage critical thinking skills and dialogue by engaging students in an exercise wherein they identified statements as fact, opinion, or common assertion…”

    This in a nutshell is what education should be and, at its best, has been for a few centuries now.

    What does it say about a parent or church who believes God is so powerless that He wants children indoctrinated, rather than taught to achieve their highest potential?

  • Artimus Clyde

    The student lied. The teacher never said there isn’t a God or for the student to say it. The existence of God is not a fact. If you can’t understand that you should get an F.

    • Jean Adams

      If you think that ‘the existence of God is not a fact’ prove it. If God had worked in your life as he has in mine you would be sure he is a fact.

      • Artimus Clyde

        Jean that’s not how it works. If you make a claim it is up to you to prove that claim. You can’t prove a negative. Anecdotal evidence is not proof of fact. I’m sorry but there is no way around this.

        • Matthew Doyle

          You are pretty fucking harsh, Artimus. So you are saying that if someone believes in God, that they should automatically get an F?

          You sound like you could be the real version of the teacher mentioned int the video.

          • Artimus Clyde

            Never even came close to saying that. You hear what you want to hear. I said, knowing the difference between fact and a belief. Belief does not equal fact.

          • Matthew Doyle

            I do hear what I want to hear. But these are words, so “see” would have been more of the word you were looking for.

            I did misunderstand you, now that I look back at what you said before. I understand that you can’t prove God is real is a fact, but you also can’t prove that God isn’t real is a fact.

          • Artimus Clyde

            Which is why it’s an opinion. I can’t prove a lot of things don’t exist. I can’t prove that there isn’t a 6 foot tall man on the star vega, but it is my opinion there isn’t. The girl in this class is just trying to make an issue of something that isn’t there. It’s not the worlds problem that she thinks her beliefs are automatically facts. That’s dangerous thinking.

          • Josey

            No, the danger lies with the teacher telling the students it’s a lesson on critical thinking and then telling them if they don’t answer her way that they will get an F, that is not not a lesson in critical thinking at all. This girl had every right to state that she believes God is real w/out getting a threat of a failed grade because she didn’t lie and put “God is a myth” . Where do you people come from, obviously you have no idea what critical thinking is about and can’t even understand reading concepts of a news article guess that is because of the common core education you received.

          • TMcG

            So if you, or your child in school, was FORCED to say God is Real, Jesus Christ is my Savior, and to recite some version of the sinner’s prayer and maybe even go so far to be baptized….you would be totally cool with that because after all, it’s just your belief being challenged and since you can’t PROVE your belief (not fact, remember)…you would do it for the grade and not raise a fuss. I think you lie.

          • Artimus Clyde

            You are blatantly lying. That never happened, the teacher NEVER asked her to say God isn’t real. She never said anything even remotely close to that. Stop trying to lie about it so you can flaunt your persecution complex. Her beliefs are opinion, the same as every other religion on the planet. Fact/Opinion/Commonplace assertion were the options. Stop lying to try and make a point.

          • SuperSpeller

            Twisting words is the skillset most valued by those into religion. That a 7th grade girl didn’t feel like participating in the exercise is more likely the root of this entire huggermugger.

          • Josey

            Pffft….she did more than participate, she courageously went before the school board and spoke about what happened. Once again, you are nothing but a shill and you need to be flagged from now on.

      • SuperSpeller

        The Scientific Method cannot be used in mythological situations as there is no way to “prove” or “disprove” the thesis of the argument. That being said, those of you who do not cling to Pastafarianism are all doomed.

    • Josey

      I think it took a lot of courage for this child to confront the board on this and the teacher, she didn’t lie, she most likely didn’t want a confrontation at all but thank God for the boldness God put in her to stand up for the truth, the liar here is the school board for covering for the teacher and this teacher.

  • Jerry Hunter

    if the teacher told the student that there is no God then that teacher ISN’T A CHRISTIAN Period! Just another lie from the school board

    • Kandy

      I agree with what you said.The School wants to protect itself.

    • SuperSpeller

      What does it matter? Christians are all wrong. There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet!

      • Phil Adelphia

        Muahhhhhhhhhh….LOL!…..Satan already has enough followers!!!!!!

      • wandakate

        You didn’t get any up votes on this one did you?

  • Sharon Jackson

    For one thing this teacher could not be a Christian or she would never try to indoctrinate the students into saying that there is no God. No true Christian would ever say or do such a thing. What is misunderstood is the fact that not all who claim to be a Christian really are. Just because you go to church every time the doors are open doesn’t make you a Christian. A personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is what makes you a Christian and none of the teacher’s actions in any way spoke of her being a Christian.

    • SuperSpeller

      Judge not lest he be judged.

      • TMcG

        The typical go-to response of the biblically uneducated….

    • Dward

      Amen you got it right Sharon
      Common sense should be the way to teach.
      I have heard another teacher in another state did the same thing. Sarcasm—- (Must be working out of same book bet they found it on the devils Internet. )

  • Lisa

    She stated “I didn’t feel like it was fair to have my faith or religion to have anything to do with what I was learning in school.” Regardless of your faith or lack thereof, this is the most important thing she said in the entire 5 minutes. School is a place for learning. For the same reason teachers should never teach from the bible anywhere outside of a church, they should never tell a child that their belief in their god is wrong. The answer to this teacher’s question is that it is an opinion. It is not a fact because it cannot be proven. It is not a myth because its lack of existence cannot be proven either. As an atheist, I do not believe in god, but I do recognize that the concept of god to many people is much deeper than belief in Santa Claus or the Loch Ness Monster. It is a belief that should be respected and not in any way up for discussion in a grade school classroom.

    • Zephammo

      Yeah, the teacher should have accepted opinion as an answer, and this probably wouldn’t have blown up so much.

  • http://www.smbelow.com Steven

    “The district remarked that the teacher herself is a Christian,”
    I don’t buy it! This teacher is as Christian as Richard Dawkins.

    • Kandy

      A real Christian would not have done that.

      • Brett Knabel

        I agree. I don’t think that a real Spirit-filled Christian could have done it. I find it so utterly repulsive. How could someone who calls Jesus Lord even consider such outlandish actions?

    • SuperSpeller

      By your vituperous comments, you aren’t a Christian either!

      • Josey

        Anyone that denies God’s existence is not a Christian, plain and simple so how is he condemning her by speaking the truth? She clearly tells the students the only correct answer is “God is a myth” or they will get it wrong. You must be blind or can’t comprehend the article or you are just another shill.

        • Chris

          “Anyone that denies God’s existence is not a Christian, plain and simple so how is he condemning her by speaking the truth?”

          “Do not judge or you too will be judged” Matthew 7: 1

          Could you explain how that applies to your words?

    • The_Random_Sample

      You DID notice that the author of the article made no attempt to talk to the teacher to find out what really happened, right?

      • http://www.smbelow.com Steven

        Has the teacher made any attempt to refute the student’s comments or what the school indicated because apparently the author of this article DID get a comment from the school. There was even time to do an investigation, which tells me that the teacher had plenty of time to give her side of the story.

        I understand, our information is limited by the content of this article; however, this is how we can practice our “critical thinking” skills.

        • The_Random_Sample

          Exactly – by taking into account the fact that this story is based on the narrative of a girl who is about 13 years old, and worried about getting a bad grade. Compare it with the statement by adults in the Superintendent’s office which states that it was an UNGRADED activity designed to encourage critical thinking. The statement also indicates that the teacher is a Christian, which strongly suggests that the teacher would not have told the students that God is a myth. The teacher probably DID say that the statement that “God exists” (or, for that matter, “God does not exist”) is a statement of opinion, since there is no way to prove that God exists.

          • wandakate

            GOD exist in our very breath. The breath of life is given to humans at birth and sustains us throughout life and at death the breath of life (our spirit) is taken away and return to GOD that gave it in the beginning.
            Just b/c GOD can’t be seen doesn’t mean that He doesn’t exist. He’s like the wind. We don’t see the wind either, but we should know it’s there. Just b/c we don’t see something doesn’t mean it’s not there.
            GOD IS REAL, you are real, I am real, and it’s b/c His breath has sustained our being. As long as we breath we are alive and can praise GOD. Be thankful He is real…

          • The_Random_Sample

            Funny stuff. The existence of air (and, therefore, the wind) can be objectively proven; there is no objective evidence of the existence of God. The rest is just poetry, and not very good poetry at that.

          • Terri Parker

            Regardless to what each of them believe, the teacher nor the children can be proven right or wrong. Therefore, the statement, “God is real”, is dependent on each others faith. So, is the teachers faith right and the students wrong or vice versa. This was a loaded assignment that should not have been given. The student was forced to question her faith while the teacher was able to exercise hers. Fair or unfair? Since there, in your opinion “is no God”, how then do you prove it. There is a reason that the school districts have policies…. for this very reason, to protect each others beliefs.

          • The_Random_Sample

            One does not have to prove the lack of existence of God. Proof of a negative is difficult if not impossible, which is why the burden of proof, in law, debate, and science, is always on the party making an affirmative assertion (such as “God exists”.) In science, there is a general rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The assertion that there is an invisible, intangible, omnipotent, omniscient being responsible for our existence who cares about each of us, loves each of us, and will damn us to hell if we don’t obey the right set of rules written down tens, hundreds, or thousands of years ago by people who claim divine inspiration (of which there are thousands of versions, all of which contradict one another to some extent) is an extraordinary assertion. There is no objective evidence whatsoever that it is true. Consequently, at BEST, the statement “God exists” is a statement of opinion; at worst, it is a statement of delusion.

          • Terri Parker

            Key words that put us at a place in which the statement ” God Exist” should never cross lines. One has their own belief. ” Proof of a negative is difficult if not impossible, which is why the burden of proof, in law, debate, and science, is always on the party making an affirmative assertion (such as “God exists”.)” When a person sees their faith as a positive and has personal proof, who is to dispute them…..”In science, there is a general rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.” In a persons personal life science has no bearing in their spiritual belief….Who can prove them wrong? I note that in each of your post, you capitalize God. Does this mean that you believe the word is a proper noun or that there is a God. All I am trying to do is set a standard that each us love and respect each other. This will require us to do things that does not require us to prove anything to each other in the classroom arena that can not be proved either way. Stick to the curriculum.

          • The_Random_Sample

            Your “reasoning”, such as it is, would suggest that if someone “believes” that water freezes at 50 degrees F, that would be “true for them”. Obviously, this is not true. And, no, the fact that someone feels all warm and fuzzy because that person believes in God does not make “God exists” a positive assertion. “When a person sees their faith as a positive and has personal proof, who is to dispute them.” Rational people. If someone says “There is an invisible pink unicorn that lives in my back yard, and it makes me so happy!”, other people – rational people – would clearly regard the person as deluded. The more that the person says that they do things in life because the invisible pink unicorn told them to do it, the greater reason rational people would have to intervene in the person’s life.

            God is an invisible pink unicorn.

            I use the term “God” with a capital “G” because it is a proper noun. We are, after all, talking about a specific God, the God of Christianity. I do not believe in Allah any more than I believe in God, but I always use capital letters to start both words, just as I use capital letters to start the first and last name of Harry Potter.

            If we respect each other, we will not pretend that irrational statements are rational. When someone starts talking about the invisible pink unicorn in his back yard, it is not treating that person with respect to roo one’s eyes and think to one’s self “Oh, Harry’s talking about his ‘pink unicorn’ again.” That is treating Harry like a child, not like an adult.

            People should be educated to understand that, at BEST, the statement “God exists” is an opinion, and that people who do not believe that God exists are not “wrong”.

          • watchman

            BIG BANG THEORY, HUH???? YES GOD SAID BANG!!! AND IT HAPPENED. LOOK AROUND YOU, EVEN NATURE ITSELF TEACHES THERE IS A CREATOR. HIS NAME IS JESUS, HE WAS THERE WHEN THE FATHER SAID “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE” JESUS IS THE WORD THAT BECAME FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US. IF YOU WILL SINCERELY ASK HIM TO MAKE HIMSELF REAL TO YOU, YOU WILL NEVER DOUBT AGAIN!!!!

          • The_Random_Sample

            Yeah, you’re right, and all the other religions, including all the other denominations of Christianity, are wrong. This all despite the fact that there is no objective evidence that any religion is correct about any of the thousands of gods that people have worshiped over the past 10,000 years. You people are just hysterically funny.

          • watchman

            One second after you close your eyes for the last time, I promise you that it won’t be funny anymore, and my words will haunt you for eternity. You are assuming there is no God, but what IF you are wrong, it will be too late to believe, repent, and ask forgiveness while standing before Him in the court of judgement. Physical Death is just a door we pass through to the eternal. To us who are born again of the Spirit of God, we will never die, just be transformed. I pray you come to the knowledge of the truth before you close your eyes for the last time. JESUS IS ALIVE. This difference between Jesus and allah goes all the way back to Isaac’s 2 sons. Isaac was the son of promise(spirit) and Ishmael was the son of the self effort(flesh). The war between the flesh and the spirit will rage till the day of physical death. My God have mercy on your soul(mind, will & emotions)

          • The_Random_Sample

            Yeah, the God who loves me so much that He’ll damn me to hell if I don’t follow exactly the right set of rules out of thousands. The God who is omniscient and omnipotent, and who therefore knew exactly what I would do at every moment in my life before He created me, and before He created the universe, and who will damn me to hell after I do all the things He knew I would do. Sure, that makes complete logical sense. Create me, and all the other people in the world, so that I (and the rest of them) can only do exactly what He created us to do, and then judge us for it.

            I have an invisible pink unicorn in my back yard. Makes just as much sense.

          • watchman

            It appears that you have been listening to someone that has lead you astray about the attributes of the True God. The God I serve has never sent anyone to hell, that is a choice you make, by rejecting His offer of salvation. You are right that He really does love you, but this set of rules thing is way off course. Once you see and understand the True Him, it is no longer “I have to do good deeds, it is I get to do them”. You will want to help others, because His love becomes your character, You don’t do good deeds to get saved, but because you are saved. The bible is very clear about the things of God being foolishness to the unbeliever, because they are spiritually discerned, and until your spirit man has been born from above, you cannot understand them. You need to quit listening to every wind of doctrine and read the Book for yourself. If you will ask Him to reveal Himself to you with a true and sincere heart, you will in total shock when He makes Himself real to you. I know a couple of atheist that put Him to the test and found out that they had been deceived their whole life. You can’t even understand what real love is until you meet Him. Give the unicorn a high five and try it!!!!

          • The_Random_Sample

            Yeah, yeah, my God is the One True God, the only real one, don’t pay any attention to any of the thousands of other gods that people believe in just as sincerely and strongly as I believe in mine, and our magic book is all true because it says it is all true. Here’s a news flash – Everything I say is true. God told me to tell you that.

            Enjoy your fantasy. I was brought up Christian (specifically, United Methodist), and I know the Bible well. The more I read, the more ridiculous I realized it was. Your breath (and keystrokes) are wasted on me.

          • watchman

            You are wrong about them being wasted on you. If I can get you to just think for once, that there is a possibility that He just might be real, then I will have done my job. I am a watchman, my job is to warn of impending danger. You are in danger, and because of Gods love shown to me when I was a boozer and druggie, I can truly say that I love you and and concerned about you. I was saved in the Methodist church, nice group of people, just bound up by traditions of men that make the Word of God to have no effect, full of religious and denominational spirits. Have a form of godliness but have no power. A converted satanist friend told me one time that sitting in one of those dead churches was part of his initiation, something about hardening his heart to the truth. Men have worshiped other gods since the beginning. Golden calf’s, phallic symbols, kings, pagan gods, self, money, big expensive cars & homes, all kinds of things. This is why Moses was given the commandments, to help give His creation some kind of order. Man has a tendency to do all kinds of foolish stuff without some kind of direction.
            The difference in The God of Creation and all of the other religions. Jesus was the only one that claimed to be
            the Son of God and called God his Father. Jesus was the only one who was
            born of a virgin. Jesus was with God before he came to earth. Through
            Jesus all things were created, things in heaven and on earth. Jesus was
            also the only one that knew what he was sent to earth to do: He came to
            die willingly for our sins so that we could be forgiven. This is the
            biggest difference between what Jesus did for us and what Muhammad,
            Buddha, Krishna, or any other spiritual leader did. None of them died
            for anyone. Jesus was the only one that lived a sinless life. Jesus also
            was the only one that performed miracles compared to the other
            spiritual leaders. Jesus was the only one that healed the blind, the
            crippled, and the sick. Jesus was also the only one that was resurrected
            from the dead and went up to heaven to be with His Father. Jesus was
            also the only one that said he will come back again to set up his
            kingdom on this earth for 1000 years. Jesus was the only one that
            promised us eternal life with God. Your heart has been hardened, and you have seen the deceit in So Called Christians. What I’m talking about is not religion and has nothing to do with religion. I am talking about a relationship with the Creator of the Universe. You mock me, but Jesus said I would be mocked, others persecute me, but Jesus told me this would be so, and I knew this when we became friends. He said they hated me and they will hate you, so I am used to it and count it all joy to suffer for His Name, but I want you to really know that He is as real as the nose on your face, and He really does love you, and I do too.

          • The_Random_Sample

            “The difference in The God of Creation and all of the other religions. Jesus was the only one that claimed to be the Son of God and called God his Father. Jesus was the only one who was born of a virgin.” LOL! Look up Mithra. The early fathers of the Christian church discussed Mithraism’s similarities to Christianity, unfavorably and with the intent to make it appear as if the prescient devil “aped” the coming Christ, based on interpretations of so-called “messianic prophecies” in the Old Testament. In other words, they essentially admitted that these similarities, parallels and correspondences between the religion and biography of the Perso-Roman god Mithra and the Jewish messiah Jesus existed before Christ supposedly lived, and that the Christian savior and religion were therefore unoriginal and not unique.

          • watchman

            Okay, if it’s a hoax, then it has the best benefits of any fake I’ve ever experienced. The peace, the joy, the happiness that I experience now is un-explainable. I never experienced anything like this doing drugs or booze. You cannot buy this on the street, you can’t cook it up in a spoon and shoot it, you can’t put it in a can and smoke it, but you can get down on your knees and you can get it for free and it last forever. one last thing I wanted to say concerning the religious part:
            This is the biggest difference between
            Christianity and all other religions. Muhammad was a man, Buddha was a
            man, but Jesus was both God and Man. He was the Son of Man and the Son
            of God. Most religions were started by someone who claimed to have had
            either a vision or a message from god. Jesus never made that claim. He
            said that he was from heaven and He came to teach us about his Father.
            Muhammad, Buddha, and Joseph Smith did not say they were from heaven.

            Christianity is not a religion. It is a
            relationship with a loving God and his Son Jesus Christ who died for us
            so that all who choose to accept His forgiveness for their sins may be
            forgiven and have a personal relationship with Jesus throughout their
            life and spend eternity with God when they die. A religion does not give
            one that privilege. It only gives one the hope that their god will be
            pleased with them and with how they lived their life

            and the hope that a better place awaits
            them when they die. Christians don’t have to hope, they KNOW, because
            God has made them a promise that if they believe in His Son Jesus, they
            will spend eternity with Him and God always keeps his promise. God also
            gave Christians the Holy Spirit who testifies with their spirit that
            they are children of God.

            There are many differences between being a
            Christian and being religious. Most religions consist of rules of
            conduct, what you can and can’t do, and even what you can and can’t eat
            or drink. Jesus gave his followers only one rule to follow: “Love the
            Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all
            your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Christianity is all about loving God and loving people.

          • Chris

            Actually you’ve got no idea what Jesus claimed. All we have are anonymous documents which make the claims that Jesus said this or that.

            Your ‘argument’ starts of going on about how your faith makes you feel. Many faiths have emotional effects on those who believe it. Emotional benefits do NOT make a belief true.

            You then make knowledge claims. To claim that you KNOW something means that you can prove it. If you can’t prove it then you don’t know it.

            As to your claims that Christianity isn’t a religion…the dictionary disagrees.

          • Don Fernando de SF

            Let’s start with a few knowledge claims. 1/ champion atheist Antony Flew (perhaps the ‘heavyweight champ of atheists’) debated Gary Habermas on Jesus’ Resurrection. Flew lost the debates, they became friends. He wrote a book There is a God / with appendix on Jesus. He also debunked Richard Dawkins’ intellectual chicanery, btw. You can see for yourself whether Habermas’ knowledge claims have any weight. 2/ in the1860s Louis Pasteur demolished the evolutionary theory that life is self-created from inert chemicals. He proved that life can come only from life. Yet, this pillar of ‘accidentalism’ is still taught as fact in most schools; with this ‘free ticket’ we are then supposed to believe that after accidental creation of universe to accidental simple life to accidental complex life… all with the ‘knowledge claim’ of something called natural selection … which btw Darwin himself admitted in 6th ed. of Origin of Species to be bunk. Yet, today, school still teaches this as ‘most probable’ if not outright fact. On the knowledge claims of anonymous documents, this flies in the face of some of the greatest historians and archeologists. Example, the apostle Luke has been described as a ‘historian of the first order.’ 1/ secular writings of Jesus’ time record more of Jesus than Caesar, strange doings for a mythical figure, or just one of many preachers and prophets 2/ the textual accuracy of the NT is 99.5%+ that’s from 25,000 copies, including 6,000 in Greek alone. Ie, they virtually match. A reasonable glance would tell us Hm, if all these copies match, what does that mean? It means to me that we have Jesus’ words and actions faithfully recorded by many eminent witnesses. Simon Greenleaf wrote the ‘bible’ legal evidence. He was a doubter, but then became a Christian because of the evidence. Are these knowledge claims? Are they in historically acceptable documents? Yes. For one, the NT is far above all other ancient writings that are accepted as history, such as on Alexander, Socrates, etc. and these are written hundreds of years after their lives, and few copies of poor textual accuracy …. unlike the writings of the NT. And Jesus clearly demonstrates that He accepted the OT as historical, such as Genesis … In the beginning, God CREATED.

          • Chris

            “Let’s start with a few knowledge claims.”

            Good idea.

            “1/ champion atheist Antony Flew (perhaps the ‘heavyweight champ of atheists’) debated Gary Habermas on Jesus’ Resurrection. Flew lost the debates, they became friends.”

            Irrelevant. Debates are NOT how either science or philosophy is done. A denate deals with facts that you can marshal at that instant. It may, upon occasion deal with fallacies such as the ‘gish gallop’.

            You also go on to point out Habermas’ counter to Dawkin’s book against religion. Here I would tend to agree with you. Dawkins was not indulging in chicanery, as you assert, but in ignorance. He is simply not trained in theology. He is a scientist who is arguing outside his discipline.

            “2/ in the1860s Louis Pasteur demolished the evolutionary theory that life is self-created from inert chemicals.”

            Evolution has NOTHING to do with the origin of life. It has to do with life’s diversification AFTER it had already begun.

            You then go on to refer to accidentalism, accidents, etc. Sorry but the terms are abiogenesis and the big bang. If you can’t use the correct terms then you really shouldn’t raise the topic. Theyt both have NOTHING to do with evolution.

            “Darwin himself admitted in 6th ed. of Origin of Species to be bunk.”

            I have that addition and Darwin does NOTHING OF THE KIND. Please get your information from other sources than creationist websites like AIG. However let’s say he did. So what? Science is advanced by evidence NOT opinion. Any retraction of his theory would get the request ‘evidence please’ from other scientists.

            “On the knowledge claims of anonymous documents, this flies in the face of some of the greatest historians and archeologists.”

            First I noted that the documents are anonymous. That being the case their information concerning Jesus’ words must be held suspect since the authors of said documents had no way of knowing what Jesus’ said. This is something you don’t address.

            Now let’s go onto Luke’s accuracy. If Luke is such an accurate historian why didn’t he use primary sources instead of merely copying Mark. It has been conservatively estimated that between 80-90% of Luke is merely a rewriting or reordering of Mark.

            Additionally Luke would have sourced most of his information from Paul yet Paul never even met Jesus while he was alive.

            You then make the surprising claim “1/ secular writings of Jesus’ time record more of Jesus than Caesar, strange doings for a mythical figure, or just one of many preachers and prophets”

            Actually there are very few secular sources which mention Jesus. Tacitus does, Josephus does. That’s it. Tacitus [a careful Roman historian] definitely does mention Jesus being put to death by Pilot. The mention by Josephus was inserted by an unknown author in later copies of his work. There are a number of ancient authors like Pliny who mention CHRISTIANS but make no mention of Jesus.

            Now let’s compare mention of Caesar. 1) Caesar wrote several works which have survived. Jesus wrote nothing. How many secular sources mention Jesus? Let’s see:
            a) Sallust; b) Cicero; c) Appian; d) Dio; e) Livy; e) Lucan; f) Plutarch; g) Seutonius; and h) Vellieus to name but a few. Additionally the first two were contemporaries with Caesar.

            You then go on to write “2/ the textual accuracy of the NT is 99.5%+ that’s from 25,000 copies, including 6,000 in Greek alone. Ie, they virtually match.

            Irrelevant. A work of mythology which is faithfully copied remains a work of mythology.

            You then go on to write “Simon Greenleaf wrote the ‘bible’ legal evidence.”

            Greenleaf is NOT a historian nor is he a theologian. I’ve read his work and in it he makes several assumptions. The most important among them is that the gospels were written by the people who’s names they bare. They are anonymous works and no one accepts anonymous testimony in a court of law.

            You then write “For one, the NT is far above all other ancient writings that are accepted as history, such as on Alexander, Socrates, etc.”

            It doesn’t matter how many people accept anything as history. What matters is evidence. The gospels are claims, like any other document. Claims need to be supported by evidence. Claims are not themselves evidence so the gospels are NOT evidence for anything. I would suggest doing so reading on archaeology. Most especially ‘Testament’ by John Romer.

          • Don Fernando de SF

            Thank you for your time. I can assume we can both write volumes on the amount of time we have spent studying, and it would be impossible to delve very deeply into every nuance, so I am just painting in broad strokes. Interested people will be able to research for themselves and see what is relevant or irrelevant.
            1/ it may be irrelevant to some that Antony Flew was a champion atheist, but one can note in the debates the pros and cons of arguments put forth by both sides in the modern era, so we can get a general idea knew many of the technical arguments, and that in the debates he discovered some flaws in some arguments — sufficient to change his worldview of atheism. It may also be irrelevant to some that Flew and Habermas became friends, signifying open minds; or that Flew went on to write a book ‘There is a God’ but this is no little thing. While a debate is ‘spur of the moment’ sparring, one can read debate transcripts whether they gel with ‘how science or philosophy is done.’ (I would also like to insert here the excellent classic Science is a Sacred Cow, so that we don’t automatically bow down to ‘science’ when such disciplines may be incorrect in the future. Another thought (I am just brainstorming) is that in the past two Nobel prizes in physics cosmological argument for the Big Bang has been called scientific frauds by some, and another Nobel awarded a few decades ago has also met with the same charge. But I leave the interested reader to evaluate this for themselves.)
            On the counter to Dawkins, it was also Flew who included such in his book TIAG. part 2 follows

          • Chris

            “1/ it may be irrelevant to some that Antony Flew was a champion atheist, but one can note in the debates the pros and cons of arguments put forth by both sides in the modern era, so we can get a general idea knew many of the technical arguments, and that in the debates he discovered some flaws in some arguments — sufficient to change his worldview of atheism.”

            It is irrelevant because truth does NOT depend upon the opinion of someone. It depends upon evidence. Secondly debates are a terrible method of getting at the truth due to the use of logical fallacies like the gish gallop.

            “(I would also like to insert here the excellent classic Science is a Sacred Cow, so that we don’t automatically bow down to ‘science’ when such disciplines may be incorrect in the future.”

            It’s not a matter of bowing down to science, but of accepting the evidence which science has uncovered.

            You then raise the topic of disagreements in science. Sure. There are LOTS of them. Especially when a theory has just started to be accepted. That’s all part of the scientific method.

          • Chris

            “Thank you for your time.”

            Very gracious of you. Thank you for your time as well.

            “I can assume we can both write volumes on the amount of time we have spent studying, and it would be impossible to delve very deeply into every nuance, so I am just painting in broad strokes. ”

            Of course. Unless we both want to write whole volumes in reply we are both forced to ‘paint in broad strokes’.

            In addition I would like to add thank you for your suggested readings in this area. I have tried to reply in kind.

          • Don Fernando de SF

            Part 2! Well, I will continue commenting on original reply ‘8 days ago.’
            “Evolution has NOTHING to do with the origin of life.” Now, you’ll have to forgive my previous promise to try to ‘paint with broad strokes’ and try to be concise. ‘Try!’ But let me quote Dr George Wald, Harvard biology, Nobel 1967: ‘There are only two possible explanations as to how life arose; Spontaneous generation arising to EVOLUTION or a supernatural creative act of God…. There is no other possibility. Spontaneous generation was disproved 120 years ago by Louis Pasteur and others, but that leaves us only with one possibility … that life came as a supernatural act of creation by God, but I can’t accept that philosophy because I do not want to believed. Therefore I choose to believe in that which I know is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, spontaneous generation leading to EVOLUTION.’ (capitals mine, sorry.) Orgeneticist Richard Lewontin, similarly: ‘We take the side of sciene in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs … in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories… materialism is an absolute for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.’
            * on the subj. textual accuracy: there is no literary rival in the ancient world to the number of ms copies, early dating, nor textual accuracy. Sir Fred Kenyon, dir. British museum: ‘The interval, then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the scriptures have come to us substantially as they were written, has been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the NT may be regarded as firmly established.’ I am reading a book on the Gettysburg address. If the original were lost, or burned, there is little doubt its text could be reconstructed accurately from the exact copies that exist. 1000 years from now one might say, if the original isn’t there, then it’s all irrelevant. When we consider the other ancient writings of ancient figures, they are considered historical; again, these other writings of other figures cannot match the biblical records in accuracy, early dating. I mentioned Simon Greenleaf because for one time events in history, there can’t be the scientific method of observation, repeatability; there are legal and historical evidences. You have to study if the witnesses were of course real people, their credibility as witnesses, oral and written traditions. Of course the further back in time, the more difficult it becomes. To be brief, other ancient figures who do not have the ‘credentials of records’ of Jesus are accepted as real, and their biographies acceptable; yet, the bios of Jesus (four Gospels) are deemed unhistorical. Luke also wrote the Book of Acts … it could be titled the acts of the apostles after Jesus left earth after Resurrection. Anyone can research for themselves whether Luke was worthy of the title ‘historian of the first rank.’
            * Some skeptics say there was never an ‘original’ bible, and imply this means the autographs we have aren’t reliable. The Da Vinci Code ‘expert’ says, ‘The Bible did not arrive by fax from heaven … it is the product of man, my dear…man wrote it, it evolved through countless translations, additions, revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book.’ Again, please (speaking to everyone), research these things for yourself, the credibility of the author, etc. Consider that the Dead Sea Scrolls testify to an accuracy and preservation of the OT and give confidence that the OT we have today is identical to the one used by Jesus. And btw, in Luke 11:49-51 Jesus confirms the 39 books of the OT (first book Genesis … last book 2 Chronicles).
            part 3 next…..

          • Don Fernando de SF

            Thank you again for reading and replying. And I hope that others will chime in. Let’s look at the matter of ‘evidence’ as you so rightly focus on. As in my previous, I noted there is legal and historical evidence for ‘one time’ events. You must confirm as best as you can (either for yourself or in a jury trial, for example) what actually happened. This is the evidence that convinced Antony Flew and others of the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. Habermas writes extensively on that, of course (‘The Historical Jesus’ eg). For one time events such as a possible Big Bang or Creation by God, then we also have to use such historical and legal methods. The scientific method can’t be used to find ‘scientific evidence’ because in the case of creation (either by Big Bang or God) no one was there to observe the event, and certainly no one could replicate it in experiments for others to prove. Such things as origins, then remain beyond the scientific method. We can observe and make assumptions, but that is not evidence. One person can look at Mt. St. Helens eruption twenty years later and assume the petrified trees and earth movements were the result of millions of years of slow processes. Another may see the same area and assume that catastrophe would be a plausible explanation.
            * To return to Pasteur and evolution. Evolution permeates just about everything in our daily life. Not all evolutionists agree with each other, but one can observe that many evolutionists believe that everything is evolving. Even many gods became one God, so the idea of “God” is also evolving. While not all evolutionists agree, many do state that everything is evolving, the universe evolved from the ‘Big Bang.’ Some questions. Did laws of physics exist before the BB? If energy/matter cannot be created nor transformed, how did this come about? If the universe evolved by ‘itself’ then we must accept that all of the atomic elements and so on just evolved.
            * Let’s forget for a moment whether evolutionary processes or God made existence. What does the evidence show? It shows an immensely intricate existence, doesn’t it? One may conclude that it is all by ‘chance’ but is that evidence? Remember that in the past decade two Nobel physics prizes that ‘prove’ Big Bang’ cosmology have been charged as fraud; one of the Nobel laureates lost his job at NASA, I think partly from embarrassment. The ‘evidence’ there is therefore suspect, although many believed it at the time.
            * In the past 150 years from Darwin, we do not have real evidence that 1/ origin or life from inert chemicals 2/ natural process that influence ‘simple’ life (there is no such thing, although in Darwin and Haeckel’s times simple life was just blobs, as even the Greeks believed) to complex. This of course flies in the face of the ‘elite’ who say there are no real scientists who disbelieve evolution.
            But again, where is the evidence? Across the board there is no evidence,, only ‘it could be.’
            * Example, after 150 years after Darwin we have never found any missing links (not link), which should be in the millions and millions. Paleontologists and museum directors bemoan the fact that the museums should be filled with transitional fossils. But not one has been found. Of the ape / human fossils, ALL them have been found to be either fraud or poor science, of people who wanted to prove evolution. Speaking from the top of my head, ‘Lucy’ was our long lost ‘eve’ she is just an ape, and the ‘finders’ transplanted a human knee joint found hundreds of feet away in another strata to prove ‘Lucy’ walked like a human. The Nebraska ‘Man’ was used as ‘evidence’ of evolution in the Scopes Trial. It was one tooth, but from there Nebs was imagined to be a man-ape, and then drawings of his village. After the trial, the tooth was found to be a pig’s tooth. Did the evolutionists retract their statement? Across the board, all over the world, we have these ape/men ‘fossils’ but ALL are false. Yet many of them persist to this day in textbooks!
            * Archaeopteryx is still debated. We know that it can’t be claimed Archie is between a bird > reptile, because fully develop birds have been found in layers far deeper than Archie..ie, there were already birds in the sky when Archie was becoming a transition between reptiles and birds!
            * But what about evidence of common sense? Would a half of this and half of that even survive? Some evolutionists surmise that a cow wandered into the water and became a whale. Imagining that is true, how could the poor guy survive? And how could her ‘transition’ be passed on to the next?
            * Some have told me “that is not how evolution works” but in simple language, does it not claim (assume) that something in nature has not only created something from nothing, to life from something, to everything else? Such an incredible claim must have a pile of EVIDENCE to convince even the most die-hard skeptic. But we have no fossils. We ignore that catastrophe instead of slow processes may be responsible. We ignore the laws of probability.
            * OK, that’s one of my biggest bugaboos: math probability. I accept it as evidence that some things may occur, other things may occur occasionally, to some things will never occur at all. Take the number 10^80, the estimated number of molecules in the universe (I don’t know who counted them), a very big number. To a human, I would call it representing infinity (although of course we realize that’s not so). It is acceptable (to many) that no one would bet their life with 1 in 10^80 odds. Yet, in everything we see we’re surrounded by such ‘miracles’ … the question is whether they are accidents or engineered? If you created a computer screen big as the USA, and filled it with the ‘odds’ of such and such occurring, it would be filled easily, even writing as tiny as this. Eg. the chance formation for protein molecule with 20 amino acids that must line up perfectly: 1 in 10^128. That’s just part of creating a molecule. And molecules have in reality at least 50 ‘links’ some 1000. A DNA molecule has 186,000 ‘links.’ Can something in ‘nature’ (natural selection, etc.) account for that? If so, how?
            * To return to the Bible for a moment. It is made of a super metal called Biblelenium, able to withstand for 2000 years all attacks. Skeptical hammers have all been broken against it. What are the odds that a new hammer will shatter the anvil? I would ‘bet’ that it will withstand forever.
            * I may say that I am an honest skeptic. I actually have looked into the Bible claims, and not just parrot a ‘Christian website.’ As one example, I have read a book The Young Earth by John Morris. I’ve lent it to a sick friend, so haven’t seen it for months. Excellent book. There are rebuttals to the ‘young earth’ hypotheses which I am also studying. We have to look at the evidence, as you say. Did a worldwide catastrophe create the earth’s features, or was it the result of slow processes? If the earth is one billion years old or so, then it must have cooled down for a few hundred million years. So in ‘reality’ for evolution to occur we have a very small timeframe. If that timeframe is not plausible, is it time to add a billion years, or possibly ditch the ‘theory’?

          • Chris

            Thank you. I’m enjoying our discussion so replying is no trouble as far as I’m concerned.
            Now to attend to the points you raise. I’d like to reply to them individually because if I tried to put them all in a single reply I’m afraid I couldn’t do any of them justice.

            “This is the evidence that convinced Antony Flew and others of the historicity of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. Habermas writes extensively on that, of course (‘The Historical Jesus’ eg).”

            I think you are overstating the result of the debate. Flew became a Deist. He didn’t become a Christian. Surely if Flew had been convinced of the historicity of Jesus’ ressurection he [Flew] would have gone all the way and become a Christian instead of merely a Deist.

            “For one time events such as a possible Big Bang or Creation by God, then we also have to use such historical and legal methods.”

            That’s not correct. Science can study one off events. For example forensics determines the facts surrounding a murder.
            Finger prints, dna, etc, can be checked.

            Likewise when the Big Bang is hypothesized scientists ask themselves – “what should we find if this is true”. When they write up their hypothesis they MUST give ways in which it may be disproven. Next comes peer review and the rest of the method. Go to youtube and do a search for “the scientific method made easy” on the Potholer54 channel. He explains the processfar better than I ever could.

            “The scientific method can’t be used to find ‘scientific evidence’ because in the case of creation (either by Big Bang or God) no one was there to observe the event, and certainly no one could replicate it in experiments for others to prove.”

            You don’t need to see something or replicate it to show that it happened. The evidence which the event produces is more than enough. Let’s take a murder scene as an example.

            We find a bound corpse with multiple stab wounds. The wounds are exactly the same as a bloody knife found at the scene. The blood on the knife matches the corpse. The finger prints on the knife match the chief suspect in the investigation. In addition the suspects shoes are covered in blood which matches the victim, and bloody tracks lead from the victim’s house to that of the suspect.

            Have we enough evidence for a conviction? Of course we have. Yet no one saw the murder did they? We have merely examined the evidence which the murder created and used the scientific method and logic to arrive at a conclusion. Science can do the same thing with the Big Bang.

            In fact, when the big bang was first proposed the astronomer who proposed it was accused of attempting to smuggle in creation because it seemed to point to the existence of God so strongly.

          • Chris

            Part two

            “* To return to Pasteur and evolution. Evolution permeates just about everything in our daily life.”

            Correct. Since that’s how we came to be it has an effect in a number of different areas including immunology, biology, genetics, etc.

            “Not all evolutionists agree with each other, but one can observe that many evolutionists believe that everything is evolving.”

            Evolution is a theory in biology. If astronomers, or any other non-biologists use the term all they are doing is using it as a short-hand for ‘change over time.”

            This shouldn’t be taken to mean that stars are evolving the same way animals are.

            “Even many gods became one God, so the idea of “God” is also evolving.”

            This is an idea which is often found in anthropology. For example the further back we go into history the more often we find polytheism – many gods. A good example of this is Greece. Originally polytheistic. When As we came to understand more our ideas concerning God were subject to change. For example we once thought that rainbows and thunder were caused by God. Now we know they aren’t.

            “While not all evolutionists agree, many do state that everything is evolving, the universe evolved from the ‘Big Bang.'”

            Once again this is merely short-hand for ‘change over time’. It is merely reality to state that stars change. Some are born, others die. That’s just the way things are. Even stars change – or ‘evolve’ – if you will.

            “Some questions. Did laws of physics exist before the BB?”

            You’re really asking the wrong person since I’m not trained in physics. From what I understand however I would say they did not.

            Also since time started at the Big Bang it is imprecise to talk of ‘before’. There is no ‘before’ the beginning of time. I found it hard to get my head around it to but it makes sense when you think of it this way – which direction is north of the north pole? You would reply that such a question is malformed since you can’t get north of the northernmost point. And you can’t get to ‘before’ the beginning of time itself. Hope that helps.

            “If energy/matter cannot be created nor transformed, how did this come about?”

            I believe it is that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can be transformed. For example every single thing you see around you is composed of energy. That fact blows my mind but it’s true as the atomic bomb showed quite conclusively.

            “If the universe evolved by ‘itself’ then we must accept that all of the atomic elements and so on just evolved.”

            Sorry but I don’t know what you mean by ‘evolved by itself’. Are you talking about energy becoming matter? Becoming stars? Becoming planets? Or is your question to do with what actually started the Big Bang itself?

          • Chris

            “* Let’s forget for a moment whether evolutionary processes or God made existence. What does the evidence show? It shows an immensely intricate existence, doesn’t it?”

            Indeed. It also shows the existence of environments incredibly hostile to human beings. For example Venus is the closest place astronomers have ever discovered to the description of hell. If a human being landed on Venus he or she would be burnt to a cinder, ripped to shreds by the winds and then squashed flat by the atmospheric pressure. Venus is one hostile planet.

            In addition there are stars which are so far away from us we will never see them and even if faster than light travel is invented we would still take thousands of years to reach them. When I was an amateur astronomer I used to ask myself why God would create such places?

            “One may conclude that it is all by ‘chance’ but is that evidence?”

            A conclusion is not evidence. The elimination of alternate hypotheses through the use of abductive reasoning provides us with evidence.

            “Remember that in the past decade two Nobel physics prizes that ‘prove’ Big Bang’ cosmology have been charged as fraud; one of the Nobel laureates lost his job at NASA, I think partly from embarrassment. The ‘evidence’ there is therefore suspect, although many believed it at the time.”

            That’s NOT how science works. A scientist doesn’t just produce evidence and everyone believes him because he’s so famous. He writes up a hypothesis and submits it along with his supporting evidence. Then other scientists check his evidence to see if they can verify it as well as attempt to show that he was mistaken. No one just takes his work as a given and go from there. Once again check out the potholer54 video on youtube entitled ‘the scientific method made easy.’

          • Chris

            “* In the past 150 years from Darwin, we do not have real evidence that 1/ origin or life from inert chemicals”

            Once again evolution deals with the diversification of life and NOT it’s origin. However I can see you’re skeptical of my assertion. Watch the potholer54 videos entitled ‘the origin of life made easy’, ‘the theory of evolution made easy’ and ‘human evolution made easy’. Potholer is a science reporter and quite conversant with the latest findings concerning evolution.

            His work is easy to understand and not at all confrontational. I can direct you to fully qualified scientists who will say the same thing he is saying however if you wish further evidence. In any case if you are going to continue to doubt evolution you should at least be conversant with the theory itself. Potholer’s channel is an easy way to gain such knowledge.

            “2/ natural process that influence ‘simple’ life (there is no such thing, although in Darwin and Haeckel’s times simple life was just blobs, as even the Greeks believed) to complex. This of course flies in the face of the ‘elite’ who say there are no real scientists who disbelieve evolution.”

            The videos I’ve suggested above should answer those questions.

            “But again, where is the evidence? Across the board there is no evidence,, only ‘it could be.'”

            If you are talking about the origin of life then you are correct. No one knows, at the moment, why life developed on Earth. We know how it diversified AFTER life began but NOT how it started. But this is hardly surprising as it is a new question in science. Evolution on the other hand is 150 years old and going from strength to strength. It has plenty of evidence to back it up -genetic, homologous, geological, etc. And not one piece of evidence which contradicts it despite over a hundred years of searching for such evidence.

            Keep in mind there are many scientists who are Christians and who have been persuaded by the evidence. They haven’t lost their faith but they accept the reality of evolution.

          • Chris

            “* Example, after 150 years after Darwin we have never found any missing links (not link), which should be in the millions and millions.”

            Tsk, tsk. I warned you about those dishonest creationist sites. They will lie to you every time. Go to youtube once again and look up a video entitled ‘where are the transitional fossils’ on the biologos channel. It is a Christian channel and provides a wealth of data in support of evolution. I can direct you to a few hundred other web sites, video channels, books etc which show that claim to be an outright lie. I think the creationists you’ve been reading owe you an apology.

            “Paleontologists and museum directors bemoan the fact that the museums should be filled with transitional fossils.”

            Not unless such people are idiots. Fossilization is rare. Several things have to happen before an animal is fossilized. Go to youtube and look up a video entitled ‘why don’t all skeletons become fossils?’ That should explain the process better than I can.

            “Of the ape / human fossils, ALL them have been found to be either fraud or poor science, of people who wanted to prove evolution.”

            Boy those creationists have really sold you a pup. We have a large number of human remains. Only one was a fake – piltdown man – and that was being dismissed by biologists long before it was proven a fake. Yep those same scientists who are supposed to be so easily taken in by any fake as long as it supports evolution proved piltdown man a fake. For the full story as well as a refutation of these creationist misrepresentations watch a video on youtube entitled ‘the 13th foundational falsehood of crerationism’ When you watch it keep a dictionary by your side and be aware that the film is confrontational.

            As to other human remains try watching a video entitled ‘evidence for evolution – hominid fossils’. That should explain the wealth of evidence better than I can.

            “Speaking from the top of my head, ‘Lucy’ was our long lost ‘eve’ she is just an ape, and the ‘finders’ transplanted a human knee joint found hundreds of feet away in another strata to prove ‘Lucy’ walked like a human.”

            To quote TalkOrigins “Creationists have been making the claim that Donald Johanson found the knee joint of “Lucy,” a 40%-complete skeleton of the species Australopithecus afarensis, in a location “Sixty to seventy meters lower in the strata and two to three kilometers away” (Willis 1987). They have sometimes gone on to add the claim that “Only under questioning did [Johanson] admit that the knee was found over a mile from Lucy. To the best of our knowledge this admission has not appeared in print!” (Willis 1987; emphasis in original; Also see Brown 1989a, p. 44) The claim is used by creationists to show that (a) evolutionists are dishonest and (b) “Lucy” did not walk upright. It successfully shows neither of these things, because it is false. (Even if it were true, it would not demonstrate (b), for reasons given in Lippard (1989-90)–the knee joint is not the only evidence of bipedality in A. afarensis.)

            The claim is not only false, it is clearly shown to be false in Johanson’s published writings about “Lucy” (e.g., Johanson and Edey 1981, ch. 7-8) and it has been pointed out repeatedly to its proponents that it is false. Despite this, none of the major proponents of the claim has publicly retracted it. One major proponent has privately agreed that it is false, and a few creationists have agreed to stop repeating it. One minor proponent made a public retraction.”

            “The Nebraska ‘Man’ was used as ‘evidence’ of evolution in the Scopes Trial.”

            Were you aware that NO evidence supporting evolution was allowed in the Scopes trial? It was held to be inadmissable.

            “It was one tooth, but from there Nebs was imagined to be a man-ape, and then drawings of his village. After the trial, the tooth was found to be a pig’s tooth. Did the evolutionists retract their statement?”

            Actually the scientist who first found ‘Nebraska Man’ was attempting to find further evidence of his conclusions which were widely held to be false by the scientific community of his own day.

            To read the full story go to google and type in “Creationist Arguments: Nebraska Man.”

            “Across the board, all over the world, we have these ape/men ‘fossils’ but ALL are false.”

            They are not false as I have shown. But the creationists who have sold you such a claim are dishonest in the extreme. Let’s take one example – Neanderthals. According to Creationist organizations they are merely humans suffering from arthritis. Let’s see shall we? Neanderthals had prominant brown ridges [since when does arthritis affect the bone under your eyebrows], thinker bones than modern man and larger brain pans. Just human beings with arthritis? In addition whole families of Neanderthals have been found yet creationists still talk like only one has ever been discovered. Is that honest?

          • Chris

            “* Archaeopteryx is still debated.”

            Correct. The debate is as to what type of transition between bird and dinosaur it was. it had teeth and claws and yet had feathers..

            “We know that it can’t be claimed Archie is between a bird > reptile, because fully develop birds have been found in layers far deeper than Archie..ie, there were already birds in the sky when Archie was becoming a transition between reptiles and birds!”

            No one is claiming that it is a direct transitional fossil. In any case as an older type is out competed it should have the later types around it in the layers.

          • Chris

            “* But what about evidence of common sense? Would a half of this and half of that even survive?”

            What? That’s NOT how evolution works. please watch the video I recommended earlier ‘the theory of evolution made easy’.

            “Some evolutionists surmise that a cow wandered into the water and became a whale. Imagining that is true, how could the poor guy survive? And how could her ‘transition’ be passed on to the next?”

            Species evolve NOT individuals. Please watch the video.

          • Chris

            “* Some have told me “that is not how evolution works” but in simple language, does it not claim (assume) that something in nature has not only created something from nothing, to life from something, to everything else?”

            Not even close. In simple language as each generation is born there is a small change from the parents. Most of these changes [what biologists term ‘mutations’ are harmless, some are harmful and some are beneficial. If two groups are separated then over generations these changes accumulate until what are now two different species can no longer interbreed. Evolution has occurred. Watch the video. It will explain it better.
            For further information about this common creationist falsehood watch the video ‘the 8th foundational falsehood of creationism’.

            “Such an incredible claim must have a pile of EVIDENCE to convince even the most die-hard skeptic. But we have no fossils.”

            Yes we do. Watch the videos I’ve suggested concerning transitional fossils. Also watch one called ‘the 9th foundational falsehood of creationism’ to get an idea of just how many transitional fossils we have. As well watch one on phylogenetics entitled ‘the 10th foundational falsehoods of creationism’.

          • Chris

            * OK, that’s one of my biggest bugaboos: math probability. I accept it as evidence that some things may occur, other things may occur occasionally, to some things will never occur at all. Take the number 10^80, the estimated number of molecules in the universe (I don’t know who counted them), a very big number. To a human, I would call it representing infinity (although of course we realize that’s not so). It is acceptable (to many) that no one would bet their life with 1 in 10^80 odds. Yet, in everything we see we’re surrounded by such ‘miracles’ … the question is whether they are accidents or engineered? If you created a computer screen big as the USA, and filled it with the ‘odds’ of such and such occurring, it would be filled easily, even writing as tiny as this. Eg. the chance formation for protein molecule with 20 amino acids that must line up perfectly: 1 in 10^128. That’s just part of creating a molecule. And molecules have in reality at least 50 ‘links’ some 1000. A DNA molecule has 186,000 ‘links.’ Can something in ‘nature’ (natural selection, etc.) account for that? If so, how?

            “* To return to the Bible for a moment. It is made of a super metal called Biblelenium, able to withstand for 2000 years all attacks. Skeptical hammers have all been broken against it.”

            🙂 Like the analogy. But I’m a bit bothered by the term ‘skeptical attacks’. Is every scholar who skeptically attacking it? Wouldn’t that include Christians who examined the bible critically?

            So if someone can examine a document critically, as is usually done with any historical document, then should people be praised or blamed for not altering their faith when evidence arises which runs counter to it?

            “* I may say that I am an honest skeptic.”

            Wouldn’t that make you someone who has attacked the bible according to your previous point? 🙂

            “I actually have looked into the Bible claims, and not just parrot a ‘Christian website.’ As one example, I have read a book The Young Earth by John Morris. I’ve lent it to a sick friend, so haven’t seen it for months. Excellent book.”

            If young Earth creationism is so strong then why does EVERY creationist organization have a statement of faith which says that they MUST disregard any evidence which goes against their young Earth beliefs? That’s NOT the way science works.

            “There are rebuttals to the ‘young earth’ hypotheses which I am also studying.”

            It isn’t a hypothesis. If it was a hypothesis then it would have been written up naming evidence which would successfully refurte it and it would be submitted for peer review. Neither has happened.

            “We have to look at the evidence, as you say.”

            Absolutely. I could not agree more. You then go on to mention a global flood.

            Ok. So let me share with you some videos which would certainly have caused me problems when I was a creationist.
            1) ‘Noah’s Ark and the Cheetah’

            2) ‘Ring Species – the Abridged Version’

            3) ‘Noah’s Flood Debunked’ Parts 1 & 2

            4) ‘Grand Canyon Carved by Floodwater – Debunked’

            5) ‘Dinosaur Blood and Polystrate Trees Debunked’

            All of the above are videos found on youtube. I hope, even if you don’t agree with them they give you food for thought. And now, finally, my overly long reply to your points have come to a close. Sorry to have heaped all those videos and sites on you. But I really thought I should back up what I say rather than just disagree.

            I wish you well in your search for truth no matter what your conclusion. To quote the film inherit the wind ‘If God did not want us to think then why did He plague us with a brain? What other virtue have we? The horse is stronger and faster, the butterfly more beautiful, the mosquito more prolific, even the humble sponge is more durable.’

            I hope, in my replies I haven’t bored you silly. Adopt that honest skepticism of yours and watch the videos and come to your own conclusions.

          • Chris

            I’m sorry our discussion has stopped. I was enjoying it immensely. I hope you are well. All the best.

          • Chris

            In my reply I wrote ‘how many secular sources mention Jesus.’ That should have read ‘how many secular sources mention Caesar. Sorry about any confusion.

          • The_Random_Sample

            Consider the words of Voltaire: “If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.”

    • motorsportsnz

      true teach is no believer

      • Chris

        “Do not judge or you too will be judged” Matthew 7: 1

        Could you explain how that applies to your words?

    • wandakate

      We shall know them by their fruits!!!!! The person who is a “real” Christian “WILL NOT” deny GOD, under any circumstances. GOD IS FACT, so there is the correct answer. If she has a problem with that, then it will remain her problem, but it’s not my problem. Satan is surely at work in the public school system.

      • Chris

        We shall know them by their fruits!!!!!

        But since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God then there are no ‘true’ Christians.

        You then go on “The person who is a “real” Christian “WILL NOT” deny GOD, under any circumstances.”

        Deny God? You mean like Peter did? Wasn’t he a ‘real’ Christian?

  • http://www.smbelow.com Steven

    “We were asked to take a poll” [and]
    “asked students to classify them as either…”

    Clearly not an exercise in critical thinking. These statements, along with the teachers alleged responses to anything God centric, are not a demonstration of critical thinking. At such a young age, this is clearly an attempt to plant seeds of doubt without the use of rationalization and critical thinking. The quintessential concept of indoctrination and a pattern of Marxist ideologies.

    • The_Random_Sample

      The key phrase here is “the teachers alleged responses”. Everything we know about this alleged incident is what a 7th grader said happened.

      • http://www.smbelow.com Steven

        Don’t forget the schools investigation and the lack of refutation.

        • TMcG

          Yep.

        • Chris

          Innocents until PROVEN guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. One child making an allegation is NOT proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

      • wandakate

        She didn’t have any reason to stand before the school board and lie about this situation. Did this child just make all this up? I say “NO” she did not. She has been taught at home at GOD exist and she believes and now it’s been questioned and she’s upset and kudos for her to stand up for what is right…

        • Ambulance Chaser

          What’s your basis for this belief?

          • wandakate

            Basis for what belief? I giving my thoughts on this girl and the fact that she didn’t lie about all of it. If this child believed in GOD chances are great that it came from her home environment. He parents probably are Christians or took her to church and she was around GOD believing people for her life until this point in time. She was questioned about her belief and she stood up for that, so that in my opinion is a good thing.
            What is your issue with that? What basis? I explained it already.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Your basis for your belief is a bunch of suppositions? OK, what is your basis for those suppositions?

          • wandakate

            If you don’t understand it by now, there is nothing else I can say…

          • Chris

            Yes there is. You could provide evidence for your suppositions/beliefs.

          • wandakate

            You must be a troll…no more comments.

          • Chris

            You must not have any evidence and are trying to mislead people into thinking you have. No more comments from you then.

          • wandakate

            I only suggested you were a troll, but then I suppose I didn’t really know what a troll was according to your explanation of one.
            Secondly I was not there, therefore evidence wasn’t available.
            And third, I am NOT trying to mislead anybody into anything…
            Nothing else needs to be said here, I have moved on…

          • Chris

            What you posted “You must be a troll…no more comments.”

            What you now say “I only suggested you were a troll,…”

            Do you understand the difference between the words ‘must’ and ‘could be’?

            “Secondly I was not there, therefore evidence wasn’t available.”

            In other words you are spreading gossip rather than something you have evidence for.

            “And third, I am NOT trying to mislead anybody into anything…”

            Good. I’m glad/

            “Nothing else needs to be said here, I have moved on…”

            I agree. Since no evidence has been produced concerning the girl and her teacher let’s drop the subject totally. Eminently sensible suggestion. I agree.

          • watchman

            YOU NEED TO KEEP CHASING THOSE AMBULANCES, CAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND wandakate. CLEAR TO ME, SHE STOOD UP FOR WHAT SHE BELIEVED. My parents didn’t take me to church as a child, but I had and encounter with Jesus at 9 years old. I lived my life as an addict and a boozer for 30 plus years. I was at the end of my rope and was ready to take my self out, but I remembered that encounter and called on Him and in an instant, I was delivered from it all, never went to rehab or nothing. When I stared telling people what happened to me they thought I had gone off the deep end, but they couldn’t deny what they saw with their own eyes. They all said it was a faze and I would get over it, I’m 61 now and still not over it. I KNOW HE IS REAL, NO DOUBT!!!!

          • wandakate

            Hey, nice to see somebody out there understands something that I’m saying. Kudos to you. I am happy about your encounter with JESUS at the age of 9. WOW, he was watching out for you and wanting you to change your life and you followed him. You remind me of the fishermen to dropped their nets when JESUS said to them, “Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men”.
            Giving it all up and never going back is quite an accomplishment watchman. I like that “watchman” as we are called to be watchman on the wall.
            I had total cardiac arrest back in 2001 and the LORD brought me through that to the amazement of the hospital staff. My blood pressure in the ER was 220/110. I was admitted and the next day had a tilt table test and that is when I died. GOD performs and can come through even in the more dire situations. You and I are fighters and we won’t fall by the way side. We will persevere to the end.
            I’m glad you are still on that narrow road, and YES, He is real, and there is no doubt about that! Blessings…

    • wandakate

      If a child is in any public school then you can expect more of the same…
      Indoctrination and programming and brainwashing and anything else they think is necessary to form opinions in your children. All of the perverted lifestyles are okay, and abortion is okay, and just pick a subject, it’s all okay. What was right is now wrong, and what’s always been wrong is now right…A Christian school would be an alternative or home schooling if possible. Food for thought.

  • WGB

    Praise God for young people who will take a stand for God.

    • Kandy

      Amen.

    • wandakate

      BACKBONE, GUTS, STAMINA, and PERSEVERANCE on her part to follow through and go to the school board. This young girl is to be congratulated for her courage, she is very BRAVE!!!

  • Thomas

    real simple solution to this specific problem.

    sue the hell out of the school board and demand the teacher to be fired.

    see how fast she/he/’it’ apologizes to keep its ‘job’

    most atheists think they can get away with saying anything to christians

    ‘because it’s in their moral code and ‘merit’ not to confront nor judge’

    🙂

    if it were me, i would say, “prove to me that hell does not exist”

    if not, then why not heaven?

    if so, then congratulations. you get a gold star for your ‘lifestyle religion’

    well, that’s a bit personal.

    just follow the first half christians and then watch the teacher go

    ah oh.

    ~peace

    thomas 🙂

  • Revern’d Max Wellspring Oseoge

    They are deceitfully trying to mess with the children’s convictions and believe system. And they know what they are doing. They are liars and theaves. They feared to lose money in the process and made up other stories. Very disappointing that kids have more heart that their antichrist teachers.

    • SuperSpeller

      “Believe” or “Belief”? I believe you don’t know what “belief” means or English is not your native language. In ignorance there is safety from cogent thought.

  • Kathy Bayles

    If someone told me to proove something like this, I would have looked them in the eye and say, Disproove it!

  • http://www.remnantofgod.org/ John1429dotorg

    Never an issue when you homeschool your children. Two parent households…is an extra income worth having your child taught that allah is god, homosexual marriage is ok, abortion is encouraged, bullying is ok, lustful looks from their classmates, the inappropriate interaction with teachers, the rock and roll music piped in during school hours, the removal of God from all aspects of learning, the promotion of sexual activity in all perverted and even animalistic manners…it is worth it?

    The United States Government has destroyed our society by pushing all sorts of disgusting and very sinful things upon our children as if they’re normal. They do this to create a society they can revel in, and it is sin that makes them the happiest. And this is nothing new! I saw this idiocy in my own highschool years and this is why I rebelled in that it was all they could do to keep me in that school. The hypocrisy of it all angered me even back then. And later on when I got married and then found Jesus as my Lord, within 2 or 3 years my wife and I pulled all our children out of the public school system. And that was over 20 years ago! Today? It’s many times worse than it was then!

  • SuperSpeller

    Your headline for this story is a lie. Based on your own philosophy, you are now condemned to hell for “bearing false witness”. So sad for you, I guess. Fact is, it was an attempt to get a 7th grader to think critically and, in her case, was a complete failure. Yet another mindless drone joins the mob of future voters. Good job!!

  • JB

    The kid is a retard. You all need to understand that your religion is your opinion and you don’t have any facts to back it up. That’s why it’s called “faith”. That’s all the assignment was, calling things what they are. Not questioning any individual’s faith, but simply calling it what it is – faith, not fact.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    IF the teacher really did make the claim that “God is a myth,” and IF she then asked the kids to prove the existence of God after they began providing evidence, as the story says, but the school apparently denies, then this teacher needs to be educated on the concept of burden of proof. She needs to put up or shut up on the assertion “God is a myth.” I would like to see her proof or evidence for that assertion.

  • Terry Wooley

    Jordan is my granddaughter. I’m so incredibly proud of her for standing up for the truth. I love you with all my heart, Jordan!

    • Frank

      Amen

  • Nidalap

    All right now, Texas, it’s starting to look like you’ve been rooming too close to California for too long! You can do better than this!

  • boodiebay

    It is obvious the teacher is not Christian, and also has no fear of God telling these children they are wrong.

  • Miriam Luz

    But, they are being taught that allah is God and the 5 pillars of Islam…and that is ok. It’s in the rotten core curriculum.

  • The_Random_Sample

    Gee, it looks like the author made absolutely no effort to talk to the teacher. I wonder why that might be?

  • Rebecca

    The teacher should prove He doesn’t exist. The teacher will learn one day that He is real.

  • Emmanuel

    The teacher is a failure so he/she wants the kids to be failures too. The godless are great for society.

  • Anna K

    If the teacher is indeed a Christian I find it hard to believe! It seems she pushed really hard against those kid’s beliefs and I say she should be ‘suspended’ if not outright fired!

  • Dave_L

    “…..it appeared clear students were simply asked to properly identify faith as an opinion or assertion (not fact), and pupils were never encouraged by a (Christian) teacher to deny the existence of God. Nevertheless, the Katy Independent School District revised the lesson and implied the teacher had been reprimanded over the misrepresented controversy.”

    snopes(DOT) com/2015/10/28/katy-texas-god-assignment-controversy/

  • jennylynn

    By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. I John 3:10

    This teacher is obviously a child of the devil and is using her teaching authority to bully and try to destroy the faith of God’s precious ones.

    but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
    Matthew 18:6

  • Dave_L

    “….it appeared clear students were simply asked to properly identify faith as an opinion or assertion (not fact), and pupils were never encouraged by a (Christian) teacher to deny the existence of God. Nevertheless, the Katy Independent School District revised the lesson and implied the teacher had been reprimanded over the misrepresented controversy.”

    See full article at snopes

    • Dward

      Re-read please
      The principal determined that the classroom activity included an item that was unnecessary for achieving the instructional standards. The lesson has been scrapped.
      I believe this little girl told the truth.
      Teacher lied because she knew she would be in-trouble so there is a lot of : they misunderstood me. (teacher)

      • Dave_L

        Thanks for your thoughts. I cannot say either way since we haven’t heard from the teacher yet. Hopefully we will hear that side and then make a fair call on it.

  • Truthhurts24

    This teacher will see just how real God is when his wrath smashes the earth .

  • motorsportsnz

    Jesus will remind teacher at the judgement time.
    if you deny me i will deny you before my Father in heaven
    so teach be wise and repent then ask Jesus the jewish messiah into your life and mean it.

  • sandra-paquette-

    It appears the schools want it both ways. They want to go after Believing Christians, corner them, shut them up, fail them. But when they themselves have no grounds oh, subject is closed or mis-understood or will be looked after. I’m to the point schools no subject should be taught other than Spelling, Arithmetic and reading all religion taboo for the simple reason there is no fairness at all. If football want to pray fine if a none believer doesn’t then leave and walk away. Then both parties are getting what they want. Same as NO muslim should be allowed to be taught NONE no exceptions.

  • ppp777

    Good girl we need a lot more like her .

  • t_borocks

    That teacher ought to be shot. My child would never set foot in her classroom again. The parents should file a lawsuit against the teacher, local school board, state school board, and the US Dept of Education. This is a VIOLATION of the students Constitutional rights to freedom of religion. Where in the hell is the ACLU. They stick their two cents worth in everywhere else!

  • Rob

    All of what man has attempted to do to wipe GOD away from every facet of our society…is back firing from the classrooms, white house, congress, military, and corporate America to include certain churches. Come on folks, GOD is in charge and handling every detail. None of this is a surprise to HIM what so ever….