Valedictorian Leads Graduates in Lord’s Prayer After District Removes Song Over Atheist Complaint

Montgomery-compressedEAST LIVERPOOL, Ohio — The valedictorian of a high school in Ohio led his class in a recitation of the Lord’s Prayer during their graduation ceremony this past weekend after a musical version of the prayer that has traditionally been a part of the commencement for years was removed due to an atheist complaint.

As previously reported, a parent of a student at East Liverpool High School contacted the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) following last year’s commencement to express their objection to the song.

The Lord’s Prayer has been a part of the graduation ceremony for the past ten years, but because FFRF contacted the East Liverpool School District to complain, officials decided to drop the song from the program to avoid a potential legal battle.

“The district should keep its musical program secular to respect the diversity of beliefs held by its students and families and to be inclusive of all students,” the correspondence read. “It makes no difference how many students want religious songs or wouldn’t be offended by them at their graduation ceremony. A graduation should be a celebration for all students, not an exercise in excluding non-religious students with a worship song.”

While there was never any official vote or public discussion about the matter until recently, Superintendent Melissa Watson opined to the board in email correspondence that the prayer would have to go despite the personal feelings of district officials.

“I am a Christian and it hurts me that there is even a question about it, but as superintendent, I have to put that aside. As you said, we can’t make it legal. I’m just sorry this is happening,” she wrote.

Most others on the board agreed.

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East Liverpool High School’s choir director of 18 years, Lisa Ensinger, urged the board earlier this month to restore the song, stating that if the Lord’s Prayer is not allowed, then the choir would also have to scrap other songs simply because they are religious in nature.

“As a person of faith it means a great deal to me as you know, but as an educator I see this as an opening to a very broad door that can cause great detriment to our music education program,” Ensinger explained. “Handel’s Messiah would no longer be allowed. All of the music of the Medieval period would never be allowed.”

However, no changes were made to the directive to scrap the song despite her emotional plea.

But on Saturday, valedictorian Jonathan Montgomery led his classmates in a recitation of the Lord’s Prayer anyway, asking them to stand to their feet.

“Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name,” the graduates declared. “Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Following their recital of the words of Christ as found in Matthew 6 and Luke 11, those in attendance erupted in applause, standing to their feet and cheering.

Board President Larry Walton said that he is considering offering a non-denominational baccalaureate service for students next year.


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  • Emmanuel

    Good job guys and keep fighting.

    • George T

      Emmanuel: Agreed! Bravo FFRF!

  • TheBottomline4This

    70 year tradition..that is great!!! Good for these young people to stand up to the minority. For those who didn’t like the tradition that has been around longer than they have, they should have chosen another school. If there was no other school to choose, you could have taken classes online. Students do that all the time.

    • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

      Or home-school.

    • George T

      TheBottomline4This: Yeah! Let’s segregate schools and communities based on religion. Our founders didn’t want a unified and respectful nation!

  • Amos Moses

    When they try to suppress your free speech ………….. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO GAIN BY COOPERATING …….. Say It In Any Event ………… What they gonna do ………

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Kick you out of school? Nope because it’s your last day anyways. I love it.

  • Dan Jones

    Is this why they want to get rid of Valedictorians?

    Always be a light that is .shininginthedark.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      I think they want to get rid of them because they feel it puts one student above the other. You know how they are now giving awards to all kids & not those who have worked hard to achieve them? Or trophies to all players even though they didn’t win? When they get in the real world, everyone will not be equal. You have jobs that pay more than others. Not everyone should be paid the same wage regardless of what they do so they will not feel inferior. It’s saying to the kids that regardless of your effort, you’ll be treated the same which is malarky. Next thing will be that they stop giving grades such as A, B, or F. They won’t want the kids feeling like failures.

      • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

        Sounds very much like the communist system where all the worker-ants or proletariats r paid the same meager rations, except that the communist leaders get special additional rations, eg govt mansions, limousines, gourmet food, personal secretaries/assistants or servants, etc.
        …….Doctors r paid the same rations as street cleaners. Wth study hard n long to become doctors or risk yr life to become firemen, police officers or pilots.?

        • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

          It’s insane. No rewards for working hard, studying hard, making great grades, nothing. Why have any goals in this type of system? Why not just exist?

  • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

    I love it when the young folks stand up for their beliefs.

    • TheBottomline4This

      They’re going to have to start doing this. The extreme left is turning things to dirt with all of their social causes. It’s good to see this school go against the wrong minority complaints.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        Amen. It’s definitely getting rougher in the states to proclaim your belief. Well, it’s not tough if your belief isn’t Christian. Everyone else has this freedom as they are ripping our rights away. The same laws they are using to give them freedom is the same ones they are using to strip ours away.

        • gogo0

          at least three state constitutions bar non-christians from holding public office. but keep pretending you have to live in secrecy

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            Really? I didn’t know that. What states have this still on their law books? I’m guessing they don’t refer back to it I’m sure.

          • gogo0

            i was wrong about it being three, there are actually seven: Maryland, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.

            from North Carolina: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God”
            they are all unconstitutional (Maryland was sued and it was deemed unconstitutional by the SCOTUS), but that doesn’t stop state lawmakers from trying anyway (see Oklahoma and their current attempt at an unconstitutional abortion ban for one)

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            Gotta love my home state of North Carolina.

          • TheBottomline4This

            It’s standing for something and not just falling for anything. Good for NC.

          • George T

            TammyHenson: Technically still law or in the state constitutions of several regions, but thankfully not enforceable thanks to the 1st and 14th amendments.

          • Josey

            The 1st? Gives the valedictorian the right to free speech which he included in citing the Lord’s Prayer. Good for him and Praise to the King of Kings!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            So the First Amendment gives him the right to say literally anything he wants? Profanity, blasphemy, pornographic, and you would defend his right to do it?

          • TheBottomline4This

            The extreme left say whatever they want everyday. Just watch The View and you’ll see Whoopi aggressively spouting all kinds of nonsense and Joy’s right behind her.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            The View =/= a public school graduation ceremony.

          • TheBottomline4This

            That wasn’t the point silly.

          • hamfish

            By “extreme left” I take it you mean the society that is advancing without and despite you.

          • Edward MacGuire

            A recitation of the Salat?
            A reading of the communist manifesto?

          • peanut butter

            Nobody has to defend those. The loony liberal left is doing a great job at that.
            Anyway, you are not going to have a true Christian doing all of that.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I didn’t ask if anyone here was going to defend them. I asked if Josey thinks that would be protected by the First Amendment.

          • peanut butter

            Well ‘I’ answered you.

          • getstryker

            And you use the same First Amendment freedoms to condone pornography in magazines and all over the internet, available to any child that can punch a few keys on a computer. This student recited ‘The Lord’s Prayer’ . . . a bit OUTSIDE of your nasty thoughts.. Your silly comment is specious at best. I find it quite interesting that your comment and my 2 year old grandson’s diaper are so similar . . . both are ‘full of it’ Don’t bother with the ‘snappy comeback’ – I could care less.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “And you use the same First Amendment freedoms to condone pornography in magazines and all over the internet, available to any child that can punch a few keys on a computer.”

            I don’t do anything. That is how the First Amendment works, though. Protecting your kids from adult material is your job, not the government’s. Unless you’re in favor of a totalitarian nanny state, that is.

            “This student recited ‘The Lord’s Prayer’ . . . a bit OUTSIDE of your nasty thoughts..”

            Are you saying that I don’t have a single thought that is not pornographic?

            “Your silly comment is specious at best.”

            And yet you still haven’t responded to it.

            “I find it quite interesting that your comment and my 2 year old grandson’s diaper are so similar . . . both are ‘full of it'”

            Then I suggest you start potty training him. It really is time.

            “Don’t bother with the ‘snappy comeback’ – I could care less.”

            I didn’t ask for your commentary either, but that didn’t stop you. Freedom cuts both ways.

          • George T

            Josey:

            Gives the valedictorian the right to free speech which he included in citing the Lord’s Prayer.

            Every citizen has a freedom of and from religion, granted by our founding fathers. I never said that the valedictorian was denied that right.

            I was pointing out that several state constitutions and local laws specifically target atheists, denying them public office. They are still technically on the books but aren’t enforceable thanks to the protections of The 1st Amendment.

        • Eileen Dennis

          You are right

        • George T

          TammyHenson:

          Well, it’s not tough if your belief isn’t Christian.

          Are you high? Oh, the poor majority religion! They’ve only had… what… at least 30 confirmed presidents in a row that share their beliefs and a near constant majority in The Legislative Branch.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            No. I was once a huge drug abuser as well as a heavy drinker. Those choices robbed me of many things – almost my life. So, no. I’m not high. I’m actually quite sober.

            Look around you. Where are we, we being Christians, able to stand up for anything anymore? Where are we not being sued? Where are we winning these suits? Where are we able to speak our beliefs without being attacked? Your comment in itself proves this. So, I do feel the sobriety is unjustly imposed on the wrong side of the fence here as foggy perceptions seems to be imposed. Have you chosen to turn a blind eye? Or instead you’re one that is quite thrilled that it’s finally happening to those horrible God-loving folks? Those folks that deserve to be punished for shoving that Bible down your throats, you know them. Those horrible people that deserve death because they believe in a God that doesn’t exist & want to share the love of their Savior with others. How dare they? They so deserve whatever is coming to them. How dare they love others? How dare they stand up for anything?

            What are you even talking about with the presidents? Why do people keep placing folks in political groups. I’m not in any political group. I’m not a conservative, liberal, socialist, republican, yadda, yadda. I’m just a person that holds to certain beliefs. My beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with any governmental agency.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “Where are we, we being Christians, able to stand up for anything anymore?”

            There is no place in America wherein Christians are forbidden from standing up for anything. But sometimes you lose. That’s the price of living in a pluralistic society.

            “Where are we not being sued Where are we winning these suits?”

            You are not being sued for anything you do in your private lives. There are a few restrictions on what you can do in business, but oh well. Once again, see: price of living in a pluralistic society.

            “Where are we able to speak our beliefs without being attacked?”

            I suppose you could hang out at a different Christian website. The AFA moderates every single comment because they live in mortal, abject terror of having to defend their own positions on things.

            Dissenters are here because of the generosity of the moderators. If you don’t like us being here, you can take it up with them.

            Elsewhere, in public forums, the answer is “you can’t.” See again: pluralistic society.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            You make good points. Thanks for sharing.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You’re welcome.

          • George T

            TammyHenson:

            No. I was once a huge drug abuser as well as a heavy drinker. Those
            choices robbed me of many things – almost my life. So, no. I’m not high.
            I’m actually quite sober.

            Congrats! I have an unspecified family member who’s a member of a 12-step program who just reached 25 years.

            Look around you. Where are we, we being Christians, able to stand up for anything anymore?

            Any religious institution. Private property. Companies with a majority privately held stake. Every president and a majority of The Legislative Branch for at least the past century.

            Where are we not being sued?

            Everything I said above with the exception of companies.

            Where are we winning these suits?

            Companies with a majority privately held stake, like Hobby Lobby.

            Where are we able to speak our beliefs without being attacked?

            Depends on what you consider to be an attack. If asking a question about your beliefs is an attack, then I attacked people in Sunday School every now and then when I attended church with my parents. So what qualifies as an attack?

            Your comment in itself proves this.

            Ah! So criticism in a public forum is an attack? Then you might wanna toughen up that thin skin. You’re free to proclaim anything you want, and so am I. My proclamation might be support or a refutation of your proclamation. It’s a free society and you should be ready for both responses.

            Those folks that deserve to be punished for shoving that Bible down your throats, you know them.

            Government employees who violate The Establishment Clause should at least have national law explained to them, in this specific case Wallace v Jaffree is a good point of reference.

            Those horrible people that deserve death because they believe in a God
            that doesn’t exist & want to share the love of their Savior with
            others. How dare they?

            Whoa!!! Who said anything about killing anybody?

            What are you even talking about with the presidents?

            The Executive and Legislative branches of our government have been Christian and majority Christian respectively for at least 100 years. The population of this country is still majority Christian unless you divide Christianity by denominations. You can’t have a majority representation like that and claim oppression. …at least not without a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance.

            Why do people keep placing folks in political groups. I’m not in any political group.

            Why are you assuming that I placed you in a political group? Take a deep breath, count to ten, and reread my earlier comment.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            I haven’t been sober 25 years so congrats to your family member. It’s a tough road in which you have to battle almost daily.

            There are several definitions of attack & one is: to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly

            I actually have no issue with anyone questioning me or coming at me. My skin is pretty thick.

            I’m actually admin on a couple of Christian sites. I enjoy this site due to the fact that it’s not completely Christian. I enjoy reading the views of others outside the Christian realm because sometimes the Christian’s views can be quite closed minded & don’t look at others around them. I believe we need to see all aspects of issues regardless of what the issue might be.

            Sorry about the bad representation of wanting to kill Christians. I guess my fingers got carried away in that moment & I got caught up emotionally. My bad.

            I counted to 20 & still see no relevance with me & the government. Have a blessed Memorial Day.

          • George T

            TammyHenson: I’ll admit that my earlier comment was sarcastic and snarky. But it’s actually an assessment of Christianities majority status not matching the *persecuted and maligned minority* claims of many Christians wanting to satisfy the bibles prophecies regarding end times.

            I reference The Executive and Legislative branches Christian majority to further illustrate how Christians as a whole are *well* represented and have a good bit of power. Technically there’s no religious test for public office, but quite a few former politicians have only felt that they could admit their lack of belief or atheistic views for fear of being judged for their faith by voters, and not their actions and record in public office.

            On the flip-side, many politicians divorce, arrange abortions for mistresses, and general operate as if living in Sodom and Gomorrah, but get a pass as long as they say they’re Christian or they’ve renewed their faith after being caught. It’s this weird blind spot where voting is concerned.

            There is stronger support for Christians, and even people who only claim to be Christians, than any other faith, belief, or other minority. That just doesn’t match with the persecution claims.

          • hamfish

            you were probably more fun when you were high.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            BAM*** You clowned me right here on a website with your computer. Dang, what a talent that must take. I guess I could be offended if you even mattered. But, NOPE, Who are you again? Oops, done forgot. What was we talking about? Again, no clue. BAHAHAHAHAHA Hilarious!!!! Can’t wait to hear you next comical roaring laughable reply. ***Strums fingers as she sweats in anticipation at the fun someone with the name of ham & fish is going to bring us next.

    • George T

      TammyHenson: It’s better to teach them to stand up for their rights instead of giving them up to government organizations.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        And Yes, they definitely should stand up for their rights & beliefs. Thank you kids for standing strong when the world tells you to shut up because your views are wrong.

        • George T

          TammyHenson: Who told them to shut up? The school asked them to avoid the subject, but every law is with them as US citizens. They’ll have to deal with the repercussions of ostracizing non-Christians, but I’d stand with you in support of their right to say whatever asinine thing they want.

          • Ronald Carter

            Extremely well said.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            Yes, I support them standing up for their rights regardless of what others think of their views. Very proud of them.

    • Rob McClain

      Perhaps if the valedictorian espoused a belief in Islam, Judaism, or Jainism you’d chirp a different tune? Or Satanism?

      Using the dais of a secular institution to espouse sectarian mythology is wrong, regardless of whose myth is being promulgated.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        I still hold strong Kudos young’uns. You stood strong when the world said you couldn’t. Good for you. Continue to stand strong.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Are you going to answer the question?

        • Rob McClain

          Of course she isn’t going to answer the question. She knows that any answer based on logic and reason disproves her bat-guano crazy assertion that Christian privilege has ascendency over the secular Constitution …the document that purposely and wisely told all Godbothering goons in colonial America to keep their myths in the church and OUT of the statehouse.

          Nothing has changed, except that goons in suits keep erecting RFRA nonsense. Keep your Nativity scenes, Ten Commandments monuments, and Jesus Lunches on church property and nobody will bother you.

          Keep shoving your dogma into the statehouse, your doctrine into the schoolhouse? Expect people like me to shove back hard and without mercy. Secular people are sick to death of undoing the harm done to children’s minds by your Sunday schools and parochial schools.

          The Constitution guarantees you freedom of religion, it does not offer you carte blanche to interferes in the operation of the secular world, and it certainly does not give you the right to pollute the land with your messages of hatred and misogyny.

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            Why won’t I answer? I have no issue in answering any questions. I’m an open book. Just ask me what page & chapter. In America, you should have the right to speak anything you desire be it Islam, Satanist, etc as long as it’s not hatred for others – even though you have the right to speak hatred for others. I don’t approve of it but nobody asked me what I approved of because nobody really cares what I approve of. Well, except you guys. That’s what our country was founded on was freedom. Again, good for those young people for standing strong on their beliefs.

            Yes, I’m a Christian. If that offends you, our country gives you the right to be offended. I don’t apologize for my beliefs no more than you apologize for your unbelief. I don’t call your unbelief anything except your right. I don’t call it names because I have no need to do that. I don’t fight to have my beliefs shoved into politics: I don’t fight to have religion taught in school; I don’t fight for the 10 commandments to be up anywhere.

            Schools: I feel if Christianity was taught in school, that would open the door for any belief to be taught & I’m not a huge fan of many of them. I have no issue in them learning ABOUT other religions as far as their history & their belief but I do oppose them being taught that it’s the religion to hold to. So, I’d prefer my children learn from their own home the beliefs I hold. I homeschool my kids anyway so that argument is null & void. I’ve actually never fought for it to be taught in schools though. I’ve had several kids in public schools & I never gave a second thought about it being taught there.

            Separation of church & state is just that – separation. I don’t shove my beliefs anywhere. You have the right to speak against them as much as I have the right to speak about them. I could care less about politics. I don’t care about the 10 commandments being anywhere. That doesn’t make anyone live better or worse.

            In reality, I don’t care if you accept what I believe. It’s your choice. I don’t Bible bash you, preach to you or teach you anything about my beliefs. The Lord knows whether or not you’ll accept. I love you & would love to see you added to the kingdom but if you’re not, I won’t know. It won’t affect my life in any way, shape or form. It doesn’t affect my family so it’s whatever. This is an open forum so I’m open. Have a blessed Memorial Day.

    • lonbo

      Indoctrinating minors to magical thinking is a form of child abuse that is protected by the first amendment as freedom of religion and is antithetical to the purpose of education.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        Love how the Christians stand strong in their faith when the world says to shut up & sit down, especially when it’s the younger generation. STAND STRONG

        • lonbo

          Christians are the world. Christianity is the largest and most influential religion in the world, while in the US alone, approximately 75% of the population identifies as Christian. You Christians are not a persecuted minority. As a group you are large and in charge and over much of the planet Christian privilege rules and yet you are such a whiny bunch.

          • George T

            lonbo: Incorrect. Islam outnumbers Christianity worldwide. Christianity is the majority in The US, but that majority is losing numbers.

            I’ll agree that they are far from a maligned, persecuted minority.

          • lonbo

            Whatever. The figures i saw showed Christianity at 31% and Islam at 22%. They are but two sides of a multifaceted misanthropic stone.

          • George T

            lonbo: Yes, I’ll agree that they’re similarly silly myths, but technically Islam is the largest religion by numbers around the world. Not an attack. Just a correction.

      • hamfish

        Someone with a brain!

        • lonbo

          Thank you my friend. I bless you very much!

    • hamfish

      Thankfully the beliefs of most young folks are based on common sense and evidence rather than fairy tales.

      • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

        Oh, the ham & the fish has once again opened his/its/her piehole to allow the mudge to come oozing out as if it changes my perspective. I’ve read of folks like this and even had to sign in to view them from a glass window. Your doctor called with your colonoscopy results. Good news – they found your head.

  • Gary

    For all you atheists (2, maybe 3?) – STFU & ask the school to provide you with earplugs.

    • TheBottomline4This

      It’s the Lord’s Prayer…if they don’t really believe in the Lord or prayer, not sure why they would be bothered. I’ve heard others talking about unicorns, which I don’t believe in, but it doesn’t bother me since i know there is no such thing. Maybe they’re not really sure.

      • George T

        TheBottomline4This: Read about the Wallace v Jaffree court case when you have a minute.

        • TheBottomline4This

          Why are you bothered by something you don’t believe in anyway?
          Wonder how many things you believe or support that truly are not real. (I may ask you that)

          • George T

            TheBottomline4This: It impacts my constitutional rights, and yours as well. Don’t let our nation choose one religion over others. It might not be your religion or denomination, and then you’ll also be a minority having to deal with an oppressive religious majority (^_^)

          • TheBottomline4This

            I’m not bothered by the Lord’s Prayer. If you don’t believe that is your choice and I wouldn’t think of making you believe. But if you really are sure of not believing why does it bother you? I don’t believe in unicorns, but if a speaker talks for 3 minutes about unicorns or fairies or santa, I’m not bothered. I just sit there and know their belief is wrong. I don’t make a fuss or bring up the constitution, etc. I’m sure of what I don’t believe and don’t personally support things I don’t believe. In a public situation, if others want to share something about unicorns, santa, fairies, etc they can.
            Now lets’ see some of what you do believe…
            Do you believe a person can be in the wrong body and be the opposite sex of the sex they were born?

          • Slidellman4life

            You don’t happen to be a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, do you?

        • Slidellman4life

          Read the First Amendment when you have a minute. Any ruling made by a man or a group of men in black robes that limits public prayer is unconstitutional. Period.

    • Slidellman4life

      Yep. It was one “parent of a student” that complained. Shows what cowards they are, not coming out and whining publicly.

      • George T

        Slidellman4life: Yeah! No reason to fear a menacing Christian majority. It’s not like other communities have threatened others who publicly stood up for religious equality and church/state separation.

  • meamsane

    There is no such thing in the Constitution as “freedom from religion”.

    • gogo0

      no one claimed there was

    • George T

      meamsane: The concept is there, but you are correct that that exact phrase, along with *freedom of religion* and *separation of powers*, aren’t contained within our founding documents.

  • Slidellman4life

    I am sick and tired of these spineless cowards like Larry Walton. If his position is elected, an actual conservative needs to run against him.

    People who are in such roles should not put up with being bullied by organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation, whose agenda is to silence Christian speech, which is protected by the United States Constitution.

    • George T

      Slidellman2life: Yeah! How dare The FFRF enforce church/state separation that our national founders put in place to protect all citizens religious rights!

      • Slidellman4life

        Wow! How Orwellian is THAT?

        • George T

          Slidellman4life: Letting religions function independent of government influence? Not all that Orwellian at all. Have you read his books?

          • Slidellman4life

            Only that’s not the goal of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which you still have not said if you are a member of.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life:

            Only that’s not the goal of the Freedom From Religion Foundation

            Incorrect assertion. They clearly state their mission. If you can’t or won’t understand, it’s not their fault. Maybe you should check to see if you’re looking at their actions through your own bias and prejudice.

          • Slidellman4life

            1) Their mission is to remove a particular type of speech from the public square. There’s no such thing as “freedom from religion.” Nobody is trying to force you to practice any kind of religion (Except maybe muslims. The Quran speaks of conversion or death.). Unless of course you are talking about morality. Morality is not something that is defined by individual choice. You may not think so, but neither does the guy who walks up to you and shoots you in the head at point blank range because he felt it was the right thing to do. But I digress. The actions of the Freedom From Religion Foundation makes whatever stated goal they have other than the first sentence of this point a lie.

            2) I have asked you twice if you are a member of the FFRF. You have not responded. So I am going to ask you a third time, but bear in mind I have no patience for deliberate deception.

            Are you a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation?

            A non-answer will be taken as an affirmative.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life:

            Their mission is to remove a particular type of speech from the public square.

            Incorrect. Straw Man fallacy (^_^)

            There’s no such thing as “freedom from religion.”

            Incorrect. By that logic, you have a freedom of speech, but not a freedom from speech. So now you must never stop talking.

            Your claim shows that you don’t understand the full scope of religious freedom.

            Nobody is trying to force you to practice any kind of religion

            That’s not the only way a government can endorse or advance a religion to the detriment and exclusion of other religions.

            Are you a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation?

            I’ve donated to The FFRF. Why does that matter?

          • Slidellman4life

            Incorrect. Straw Man fallacy (^_^)

            And we should just take your word for it when their actions say otherwise? Pull the other one.

            Incorrect.

            Then you are reading the wrong constitution. It’s not in the USA’s, but it was in the USSR’s. Interesting, huh?

            That’s not the only way a government can endorse or advance a religion to the detriment and exclusion of other religions.

            The Constitution does not say they can’t. Nine men in back robes did. That’s the difference. And neither did Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, which was used for their unconstitutional ruling.

            I’ve donated to The FFRF. Why does that matter?

            Because it tells us everything we need to know about you and your character.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life:

            And we should just take your word for it when their actions say otherwise? Pull the other one.

            Not my word. Their word.

            Then you are reading the wrong constitution. It’s not in the USA’s, but it was in the USSR’s. Interesting, huh?

            There was religion in The USSR, and I’m reading the US Constitution. Apparently you stopped at the 2nd amendment and have read nothing of any relevant court cases.

            The Constitution does not say they can’t.

            Students, no. Government representatives like teachers, yes. …because our government isn’t granted religious rights. That would conflict with the religious rights of citizens.

            Nine men in back robes did.

            That’s the SCOTUS’s job. You did at least retain that much from your civics classes, right?

            Because it tells us everything we need to know about you and your character.

            I’m sad to see that you’re so quick to judge. I will still stand with The FFRF and defend your religious rights along with every other citizens (^_^)

          • Slidellman4life

            I will still stand with The FFRF and defend your religious rights

            1) The only “rights” they are defending are those of God-hating atheists.

            2) You are delusional if you think we buy into that horsehockey you are shoveling.

            You know what the problem is with the FFRF? They are bullies. How do I know? Because, yes, they are going after Christian speech while ignoring everybody else, but more than that: They went after a police department for having the audacity to place the words, “In God We Trust” on their vehicles. The FFRF sent them a letter saying, “You can’t do that! Separation of church and state! Mass hysteria! Dogs and cats living together! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! We’re gonna sue!”

            What was the police department’s response?

            “Go fly a kite.”

            And the FFRF walked away with their tail tucked between their legs.

            That’s what they do. That’s how they should be treated.

            Which is why I have no sympathy for these spineless cowards who jump whenever the FFRF tells them to do anything.

            Me, I would take their letter, call a press conference, and burn it on camera with the words, “Come at me, bro!” Only maybe not physically, because that might result in my forgetting I am a Christian for the worst five minutes of their lives.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life: Have you read anything I’ve said or is your vision too clouded by your bias and prejudice?

            1) The only “rights” they are defending are those of God-hating atheists.

            Incorrect. Religious rights are granted equally to all citizens. Religious rights are impacted when government gets involved. The FFRF is aiming to protect everyones rights by keeping government out of religion.

            Because, yes, they are going after Christian speech while ignoring everybody else

            Incorrect. They’ve recently dealt with The University of Iowa regarding spaces dedicated only to Islamic prayer and a mosque violating local noise ordinances. If more Christians would contact them about church/state violations, they’d be glad to help (^_^)

            They went after a police department for having the audacity to place the words, “In God We Trust” on their vehicles.

            They didn’t “go after them”. They contacted that police department among others.

            And the FFRF walked away with their tail tucked between their legs.

            Framing. They decided that this particular legal battle wouldn’t be productive.

            Me, I would take their letter, call a press conference, and burn it on camera with the words, “Come at me, bro!” Only maybe not physically, because that might result in my forgetting I am a Christian for the worst five minutes of their lives.

            Yes, I can clearly see the love of Jesus in every bile filled word you type (^_^)

          • Slidellman4life

            Incorrect.

            You know, continuously spouting a lie does not make it true. For you, it might. But not for the rest of us. Time to move on.

            They didn’t “go after them”. They contacted that police department among others.

            They attempted to get them to remove the stickers by threat and intimidation, when they knew good and well they had no right to do so.

            Yes, I can clearly see the love of Jesus in every bile filled word you type (^_^)

            Cry me a river. Christianity doesn’t have an open definition, and even Jesus Himself reacted violently when He saw people buying and selling in the temple.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life:

            You know, continuously spouting a lie does not make it true. For you, it might. But not for the rest of us. Time to move on.

            See, you’re assuming I’m lying because you don’t like or don’t agree with what I’m saying. Could also be that you assume any self-professed atheist is lying based on your existing prejudices.

            I’m guessing that you won’t believe me, but I truly hold no hate in my heart for you. I’m just saddened by your inability to accept the truth of my words because of your bias.

            They attempted to get them to remove the stickers by threat and intimidation, when they knew good and well they had no right to do so.

            A letter pointing out a potential 1st amendment violation is a threat? If I point out that you’re jaywalking, am I threatening you?

            Christianity doesn’t have an open definition, and even Jesus Himself reacted violently when He saw people buying and selling in the temple.

            You know, I love using that story to explain my theory that there were many mystics and charlatans named Jesus wandering around at that time. Later all of their stories seemed to have been mixed together with some mythology from other religions that pre-date Christianity.

          • Slidellman4life

            George, shut it and move on.

          • George T

            Slidellman4life: I understand. Can’t deal with the truth.

            Hope you have a nice day (^_^)

      • StanW

        What church/state separation was put into place by our national founders?

        • George T

          StanW: No religious test for public office. No government endorsement of religion. No religious rights granted to government or its representatives.

          • StanW

            Please point out those restrictions in the US Constitution, please.

          • George T

            StanW: Article VI, Clause 3 of The US Constitution and Amendment 1, Establishment Clause.

          • StanW

            Ok, I’ll give you the religious test in Article VI.

            However theEstablishment clause says nothing about the other issues. Would you care to try again.

          • George T

            StanW: It does. Try learning more about your own rights at *firstamendmentcenter dot org* when you have a few minutes.

          • StanW

            If it does then you should have no trouble showing me the passages.

          • George T

            StanW: I did. Now read about the subsequent amendments and court cases that stem from that Establishment Clause.

            I’ve shown you where the food is. I’ve explained how to catch it. Now you want me to kill it and chew it for you? Are you really that lazy? (^_^)

          • StanW

            The 1st Amendment does not say what you claim that it does. But I appreciate your efforts, impotent as they were.

          • George T

            StanW: Now that I’ve had a good nights sleep…

            The 1st Amendment does not say what you claim that it does.

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”

            The scope of this prohibition was later expanded to all levels of government by the 14th amendment.

            By hosting sectarian displays without granting equal access to other religions, it’s been decided multiple times in court that this kind of action is an endorsement (preferential treatment or special privilege) granted exclusively.

          • StanW

            The 1st Amendment is a restriction on Congress, it does NOT restrict anyone else.

            Clearly you are not able to read simple English words.

          • George T

            StanW:

            The 1st Amendment is a restriction on Congress, it does NOT restrict anyone else.

            I guess my comment was too long. You skipped the part where I explained that the 14st amendment expanded The 1st amendment’s application to all levels of government.

          • StanW

            And clearly you missed the clear and concise words of the 1st Amendment, which you cited as evidence of your claim.

          • George T

            StanW: Is English your second language? I’ve explained this several times, but you continue to miss it.

            The 14th Amendment applies The Establishment Clause to all parts of our government, not just Congress.

          • StanW

            Which openly violates the clear wording of the 1st Amendment

          • George T

            StanW: No, it amends the 1st through 10th amendments. I’m sorry to see that your civics teachers have done you such a disservice.

          • StanW

            No where in the 14th Amendment is the 1st Amendment negated or even referenced.

          • George T

            StanW: Everson v Board of Education is the case that forced SCOTUS to consider the impact of the 14th amendment on the 1st amendment. Specifically that part called The Establishment Clause.

          • StanW

            So it is NOT in the Constitution, but is a legal decision.

            I understand.

          • George T

            StanW: Sure. Whatever helps you to understand a little more (^_^)

          • TheBottomline4This

            He accuses you of being lazy, but if he really had something to share, he would just copy and paste the parts that may back up his claim. When they make a claim, but want you to research it, it usually means they are just tossing around crumbs.

          • StanW

            Copy that.

          • George T

            TheBottomline4This: Actually, I quote the parts that are relevant in case some irrelevant part gets your post deleted. It’s also why I restate your profile name in the body of my comments.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      If he weren’t using a government forum to speak, he could say whatever he pleased. But a graduation ceremony is not your own private soapbox. Would you be defending his right to speak if instead of praying, he were reciting an Andrew Dice Clay routine?

      • TheBottomline4This

        Are you an atheist?

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Irrelevant. I’m not a party to this story.

          • TheBottomline4This

            It’s obvious you probably are or you belong to a false religion.

      • ISA41:10

        There is NO separation of church and state in the Constitution. He has every right to say a prayer, period.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          You can stomp your foot and say “period!” all you want, it won’t make what you’re saying any more true.

          Lee v. Weisman prohibits prayers in public school graduation ceremonies, and Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe extends prohibitions on schools promoting religion to students using school forums.

          • TheBottomline4This

            YOU can stomp your foot and say all you want, it won’t make what you’re saying any more true.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            You’re right. That’s why I cite the law.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Just because it’s law, doesn’t make it right. Some laws are good, but some aren’t.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I didn’t say it was right or wrong. Only that it was legal.

          • ISA41:10

            Those are both violations of the 1st amendment. The First amendment was meant to protect religious expression from the Government, not to protect the Government from religious expression.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Yep.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            What do you mean they’re “violations of the First Amendment.” They’re Supreme Court rulings. By definition, they are what the law is.

            Or do you believe that your opinion of the law supersedes the Supreme Court’s?

          • meamsane

            Are there laws that you personally disagree with that you think the SC got wrong? Do you think that the SC is infallible or that it always abides by the Constitution?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I think the Supreme Court has decides some cases wrongly, but I wouldn’t say the ruling was unconstitutional. When the body that decides what is constitutional makes a decision, that decision IS what’s constitutional.

          • ISA41:10

            It is a violation of the 1st amendment. Is this a violation of 2nd amendment? Yes or no?

            Court says 2nd Amendment doesn’t trump NJ’s strict gun laws

            New Jersey 101.5 ^ | May 24, 2016 |

            A Bergen County man has lost his bid to fight the confiscation of his guns and ammunition following a domestic violence arrest and charges that he had high-capacity magazines and hollow-point ammunition.

            An appellate decision on Tuesday upheld a Superior Court judge’s earlier ruling that Arthur Vinogradsky was no longer qualified to be a gun owner even though the charges against him were eventually dropped.

            It’s the latest example of New Jersey’s gun-control laws, which are among the strictest in the nation.

            In New Jersey, residents must apply to their local police departments to obtain permits to buy, own or carry firearms and must meet a list of criteria before they can be approved. Few residents are granted carry permits.

            This month, the appellate division denied a Middlesex County man’s application for a gun permit just because of his terrible driving record.

            NJ man denied gun permit due to ‘atrocious’ driving record

            Earlier this month, a Superior Court judge in Monmouth County denied a soldier’s request for a carry permit because he couldn’t prove “justifiable need” even though he worked on a military facility that had faced terrorist threats.

            Even soldier working under terrorist threats can’t get gun carry permit in NJ

            In June 2013,Vinogradsky’s wife got a temporary restraining order against her husband. As a matter of course, police removed the guns from their home. As the weapons were removed, police arrested the defendant for possession of high capacity magazines and hollow point bullets.

            The wife later dismissed her complaint and the husband completed a pretrial intervention program, which spared him a criminal conviction on the weapons charges. But the judge moved forward with stripping him of gun ownership rights, finding that he assaulted his wife and committed a crime.

            The decision acknowledged that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to possess a handgun for the purpose of self-defense. But according to the courts, the Constitution does not trump “states’ enforcement of their ‘longstanding prohibitions’ on firearm possession,” and “like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.”

            The appellate decision faulted Vinogradsky for his “unwillingness to familiarize himself with our gun control laws.”

            Officers testified she had a splint on her finger and said she was “a little scared” at the police station. In the police report of the incident the wife told police her husband tried to pull her engagement ring off her finger which caused bruising and strained the finger.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I would need to see the ruling. I really have no idea what’s going on from one badly-written article.

  • A3Kr0n

    They’ve been saying the Lord’s Prayer for only ten years? Why did it start in the first place? They should have known better in 2006.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    American Christians need religious liberty. Secularism/atheism is such an oppressive, dominant religion in the West.

    • George T

      Grace Kim Kwon: Atheism isn’t a religion. The US does have religious liberty. Your perception is skewed and bias.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Then why can’t the graduates recite even the Lord’s Prayer? Atheism controls public schools against the will of the people. Secularism is not neutral at all, but oppressive against the Christians.

        • Jalapeno

          Secularism is extremely neutral.

          The only reason it’s “oppressive” is the fact that some people feel it’s their right to push their beliefs.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Yeah, like the gays, pro choicers and trans do.

          • Jalapeno

            Those are not religions.

            Do you even know what “secular” means?

          • TheBottomline4This

            Yes I do silly.
            Believing in something and pushing that is a “religion” for some.

          • Jalapeno

            Except it isn’t actually a religion when it comes to the concept of being secular.

            Certain decisions such as whether or not to pretend like gay people don’t exist need to be made in regards to schools. That doesn’t mean it’s due to religion.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Now who doesn’t know what a word means?
            One of the definitions of religion is…”a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance”. That is exactly what the gays, pro choicers, trans do.

          • Jalapeno

            Yes, it’s kind of confusing, I know.

            When it comes to actually keeping things secular, it means that things are to be decided on without any deference to anyone’s religious beliefs, and the meaning is a bit more strict.

            When it comes to first amendment protections, your beliefs can be counted as religion if they hold a similar place in your life as a more traditional religion.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secularism forces atheism. Christianity is utmost good and spreads life. Atheism is bad and spreads death. That’s the difference. It’s tragic when people have to submit to atheism – something bad. USA must not hate Christianity – something so outstanding good which created the nation and raised her and nourished her. Bad descendants repay the good with evil to the Christian population.

          • Jalapeno

            Secularism forces neutrality.

            You are aware that many Christians understand that our government must be secular, right? The two are not mutually exclusive.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            American Founders never imagined Americans would become so Anti-christian in the 21st century. Secularism never meant prohibition of Christianity as seen today in public schools. The government should pay for all religious schools; it’s been gross unfair altogether. All religious people have been being made pay for atheists’ schools.

          • Jalapeno

            It’s not “atheists” schools.

            It’s secular.

            What exactly do you think the word means?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No false pretention, please. Secular means atheist and also immoral; that’s why the Western atheism is worse than communism. Moreover, it is purposefully blasphemous in recent years. Public schools oppose and oppress the Christians, and it has been injustice for at leat 3-4 decades. It’s time for government to pay for all private education. Actually long over-due. Villains are draining Christian people’s resources. Secularists may have ranted neutrality but they are revealing what they are made of as they gained more power in the society. Ideologies also get corrupt because of human greed. The Western secularism is one grand proof that man cannot be good apart from God. You need Christianity to get saved and be fair and proper.

          • Jalapeno

            What exactly do you think the word secular means?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secular Americans and secular Westerners and their mental servants behave Anti-christian and immoral; therefore, secular means Anti-christian and immoral.

          • Jalapeno

            I’d encourage you to try this thing called a “dictionary”.

          • TheBottomline4This

            I recall earlier I needed to share a definition of a word with you Jally 🙂

          • Jalapeno

            Sure, whatever helps you feel better.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Right back at ya buddy.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You guys must stop bullying the Christians in the West. The dictionary definition is futile to you. You secular Westerners even do not know your own history or where your forefathers got the noble ideas including every human’s God-given liberty. Read the Holy Bible.

          • Jalapeno

            So.. Your argument is that the dictionary is wrong. Goodluck with that.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The latest dictionary must say the Western secularism is blasphemous and immoral atheism. Your dictionary is outdated. Dictionaries are Christian invention, too.

          • Jalapeno

            Websters is too outdated for you?

            Yeah, what a winning argument.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Webster was Christian. He never imagined Americans would bully the Christians. You secular Americans know nothing about US history.

          • Jalapeno

            Okay. Cool.

            Which dictionary will you agree to use?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible. The Christian monks created the written English language so that everyone could read the Word of God, as usual. Your nation’s public schools are silencing the Christians. Wake up. Bullies never realize the victims’ status. You guys must stop acting like the Imperial Japan’s soldiers whom your fathers had defeated 70 years ago. What a shameful thing to do.

          • Jalapeno

            That’s not a dictionary.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read Psalm 14 to discover what atheists really are. Stop being evil by bullying the Christians.

          • Jalapeno

            That’s not what I asked.

            I asked what you thought secular meant.

          • hamfish

            Then start acting like Christians.

          • Bob Johnson

            “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I swear, she’s like a straw-parody of Christian fundamentalism.

          • meamsane

            Secularism does not force neutrality. Law, by it’s very nature is discriminatory. For example, the atheist org freedom from religion foundation goes to court to argue against something (not a neutral position, otherwise you would not be arguing against something) and the court makes a ruling, also not a neutral position.

          • Jalapeno

            That’s not really how a secular position works.

            It means that the government needs to be free from religion. How exactly do you think that would work without making rulings on the matter?

          • meamsane

            But that’s the best you can say about secularism, that it is non-religious not neutral.

          • Jalapeno

            It’s neutral in regards to religion, not in regards to everything.

            If being neutral on a subject means you can never make a ruling, then we’d never be able to take a neutral stance. Obviously there’s a glitch in your logic.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Keep yapping Jally…your hole is getting pretty deep. Let me know when you want me to toss you a rope.

          • Jalapeno

            Yeah Yeah, sure, I believe you.

            Obviously secularism just doesn’t exist, that’s why you can’t make sense of it.

          • TheBottomline4This

            When did I say secularism didn’t exist? One of the other commenters may have, but I didn’t.

          • Jalapeno

            So you just can’t make sense of it. Got it.

          • TheBottomline4This

            Have you missed your pill today? What is up with you Jally???

          • Jalapeno

            I think what you’ve misunderstood is that when you reply in context in order to attack me, I consider it safe to assume that you’re agreeing, at least in part, with the person I was replying to. Really not complicated.

          • meamsane

            There is no glitch in my logic. I simply brought your assertion that “Secularism is Neutral” to it’s logical conclusion. I stand by what I have said.

            Now your saying something a little different. You could say that there is a neutral principle within aspects of secularism as in the example of a judge adjudicating a case that is specifically before him in which he has to be impartial in terms of the opposing views before him, but the system or structure of secularism is not neutral, and he still has to abide by the structure of the system in which he works.

            The same thing as to religion. It is built upon certain beliefs, precepts, concepts etc. and is not neutral in its structure but certain application within it’s belief system may use a neutral principle as in they cannot condemn(judge) a person because he/she is an adulterer or thief. That would be a neutral position. However they could say that adultery committed by that person is wrong or to the person who has stolen is wrong for doing this. That is not neutral.

            You really should define your terms better.

          • meamsane

            Yeah right! Like secularism can’t have it’s own agenda and is benevolent? Nonsense. Ever hear of Nero and Rome? What about Lenin, Stalin etc. Did these secularists push their beliefs? Your statement is not factual!

          • Jalapeno

            You seriously think Stalin did all of that in the name of secularism?

            The concept itself is neutral. What people decide to do with a secular system is not.

          • meamsane

            Secularism has structure. It is based on ideas and beliefs and concepts from human sources has it not? Religion also has a structure, a belief system. As does Atheism. It is anything but neutral.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          They can. They can recite the Lord’s Prayer to their hearts’ content. They can recite the Lord’s Prayer a thousand times if they so desire.

          They can call a meeting and recite the Lord’s Prayer. They can rent out a stadium and recite the Lord’s Prayer together, along with 75,000 other people. They can recite it at home, on the bus, in school, or on a street corner.

          The only thing they can’t do is recite it as part of the official program of a government-sponsored event.

          And you call that oppression?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, they can, because Christianity created USA. Public schools were created to make children be able to read the Holy Bible. Non-believers and other religious people can just wait until the Lord’s Prayer is over. Everyone must listen to the Lord’s Prayer because it is the most excellent prayer to the Creator God.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Thank you for blessing us with your wisdom today, Sister Grace!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Are you familiar with the current state of First Amendment jurisprudence?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read Mayflower Compact. Go back to your roots. All your talks will only spread further immorality and atrocities and hurt children if you do not return to God and retain Christianity. USA was not created for people to suffer from the atheists’ bullying. Is USA a communist nation? No.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            So, that’s a “no” then?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Read the Holy Bible. I think your American cartoons and movies made mankind more stupid and more corrupt. The First Amendment never means prohibition of the Lord’s Prayer in public schools. The Americans until even the 70’s never imagined such Anti-christian Americans could exist on earth. Who’d hate the Creator and their own parents? Public schools must not just uphold atheism. It’s been wrong all along. Believer or not, people must live as if God exists instead of as if He does not exist. Say no to atheism’s tyrannical monopoly in USA.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            I can’t even have a discussion with you. You don’t answer people’s questions and you don’t respond to their statements. You just make speeches, saying whatever you please, whether it fits in the conversation or not.

            How can anyone discuss anything with you when you refuse to participate?

          • hamfish

            It’s a “no”.

          • Bob Johnson

            “Everyone must listen to the Lord’s Prayer because it is the most excellent prayer to the Creator God.”

            You do realize that jews, muslims, buddhists, hindus, that is all non-Christian religions, do not share your views. You seem to be fine with telling these folks to shut up, that these public meetings are for your proselytizing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Other religions did not contribute to the creation of USA. If they came to live in the finest nation that the Christians created for Christian happiness, they can just wait until the prayer is over. They should be thankful that the Christians would accommodate them in the land. Those who hate Christianity should leave Europe and America and go back to wherever they came from, especially the atheists. Creators and inventors should be honored always everywhere. The Lord’s Prayer is the most vital, excellent thing for all mankind to listen to and learn. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. The Muslims respect Jesus. Eastern religious people have no trouble listening to other religions. You secularists are too godless and hateful against Christianity – something so true and good – and that’s your own problem. Secular Americans are simply evil and cannot stand anything Christian. Bad kids from good parents. You need to repent of your evil to get saved. ( John ch. 1-3)

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon:

            Creators and inventors should be honored always everywhere.

            Atheist creators like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Thomas Edison, and many others?

          • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

            As much as I would like to agree with you, you’re mistaken. The US wasn’t created by Christianity. The first people who came here came for the sole purpose of money. I homeschool my children & have researched this subject quite extensively. I’ve heard so often that the founding fathers were Christians while others disagree so I wanted to be sure to teach my children the truth of our history. Many of the first that came here were Christians, that is true. But it wasn’t created For Christianity.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, research more. All the English colonies were created to spread Christianity. Read all the founding documents and monuments. USA has Mayflower Compact and their independence documents and anthems which declare submission only to the one true living God whom the Holy Bible teaches. It was a creation of Christendom utopia. Americans knew no other. Then-Europeans had no other ideals. The West’s lawfulness is from Christianity, too. Both European fathers and American fathers never imagined such Anti-christian descendants of today to exist on their soil anyway. All Westerners used to respect Christianity even if they were not believers. Normal and moral people do not hate what is good but respect it and cherish it. The Western civilization is a conscience-less junk if it has no Christianity or the Holy Bible. You Westerners had the Holy Bible for the longest time you don’t know what it means to have it. Secularism is a corrosion, and your fathers did not only worked for money. Don’t disgrace your hard-working ancestors like that. Only politicians live for money. Not all men are politicians or merchants.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Tammy, and I think the Westerners are too proud against Christianity as if Christianity or having the Holy Bible is only one aspect of the Western civilization. It has been your source of intelligence and the driving good conscience itself. The understanding of one true living God who created the universe and the concept of human dignity, liberty, fairness including equality, unconditional charity, and importance of lawfulness and everyone’s literacy and so on are exclusively from the Holy Bible. Those cannot exist among mankind apart from the Holy Bible. Christian West was far superior over all only because of access to the Holy Bible.

            That’s why the Western nations do mega evil when they oppose the Biblical values. It’s too tragic the secular Westerners never see the pattern and always deem themselves smarter than the Word of God, no matter how often the follies repeats. The evil stupidity engulfed Germany before; it seems USA’s turn now, though Russia seems grew out of the false fantacies. Americans must fear God instead of boasting of their strength. Nations are nothing to God. America will fall if she keeps the filthy pride against the Creator God. Americans need Jesus for salvation and good wisdom just as all others do. Americans must not persecute the Christians. It is an act of treason.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            3) The Western culture( all others are mere mimickers) must be ashamed of putting humanity before God’s glory. It just does not work. In fact, humanists destroy human life and human dignity more than any other groups do. Christian Americans must not submit to the atheists like in atheistic-communist nations. USA is free and not under a brutal communist regime. Yielding to bullies is cowardice. What is liberty for? For honoring God and following His Word according to one’s own clear conscience.

          • hamfish

            The country was stolen for profit. At gunpoint. Idiots were let loose on it and they bred and today we have people like you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You guys are stupid because you only watch Hollywood movies, America’s filthy brainwashing machines.

      • The Last Trump

        Atheism is indeed a religion. A belief system of blind faith with absolutely no evidence to support their claim that there is no God.
        And they even have churches with congregations!
        Yes, a more fanatical bunch you’ll never meet!

        • StanW

          I do not have enough faith to be an atheist.

          • George T

            StanW: Faith is a positive statement of belief without evidence. No faith involved when you state that you lack belief in something.

          • StanW

            That is incorrect. It takes much faith to believe that nothing happened to cause us to be here.

            Faith is a perfect word to explain atheists.

          • George T

            StanW: Reread my comment. I didn’t say that nothing happened to cause anything. I didn’t make any origin claim. Do you realize that you’re putting words in my mouth? Do you realize that you’ve run afoul of a Straw Man fallacy?

          • StanW

            Do you realize that you misidentified faith and are now trying to defend your mistake?

          • George T

            StanW: English is your second language (^_^)

            Do you realize that you misidentified faith and are now trying to defend your mistake?

            Incorrect. Try reading my comments again.

          • StanW

            I did, and you are still wrong.

          • George T

            StanW: If you understood what I’ve said, then you should be able to clearly explain the error. So far you’ve failed spectacularly (^_^)

          • StanW

            You are wrong about the definition of faith. Clear enough for you?

          • George T

            StanW: No, you’re not clear enough. What do you assert is the correct definition of faith?

          • StanW

            I am sorry you are incapable of learning the definition of simple words. Have someone show you how to use a dictionary.

          • George T

            StanW: No no no… don’t walk away with your tail between your legs when it gets tough. Stand up for yourself. What do you assert is the correct definition of faith?

          • StanW

            I do not assert anything. You are wrong in your definition and I don’t have the time to give you an education when you are too lazy to use a dictionary.

          • George T

            StanW:

            You are wrong in your definition

            That’s an assertion. You are asserting something. (^_^)

            too lazy to use a dictionary.

            You haven’t said which dictionary. Different dictionaries have varying definitions.

          • StanW

            What a pathetic cop-out.

          • George T

            StanW: Agreed! You should really pick a definition if you’re going to tell another person their definition is wrong. Stop the pathetic comments.

          • StanW

            You first! Show me a dictionary definition that matches yours.

          • George T

            StanW: Sure! (^_^)

            Faith: 2. belief that is not based on proof

            From Dictionary dot com

          • StanW

            Good correct. Now, do you understand how that definition negates yours?

            Think hard!

          • George T

            StanW: Are we reading the same thing? ESL? It matches my earlier definition.

          • StanW

            No it does not. Please try again or have an adult explain it to you.

          • George T

            StanW: My definition from earlier…

            Faith is a positive statement of belief without evidence.

            The dictionary definition…

            belief that is not based on proof

            Since you can’t explain the difference that you claim is there, does that mean you’re admitting that you’re not an adult?

          • StanW

            Look closely at the word ‘positive’ that you used and is NOT a part of the dictionary definition.

          • George T

            StanW: Yes. And?

            It is a claim that there is something. Adding something. A positive statement. No a “there is no god” negative statement. Claiming a subtraction.

          • StanW

            You added a word to the definition which changed the definition. You are truly in need of remedial education. Come back after you get it.

          • George T

            StanW: Oh! You’re sad because you can’t flip it on me and claim that my lack of belief in a god is a faith. That “positive” part screwed up what you were aiming for.

            Go ahead and take it out. Please, continue down a path that many before you took (^_^)

          • StanW

            You changed the definition to fit your narrow view of faith and now that you have been called out on it, you are acting arrogant?

            It is pointless to debate an infant like you.

          • George T

            StanW: You got all upset like a 5 year-old, so I said you could take that out. Go ahead. Continue with what you were going to say.

          • StanW

            You are a pathetic debater and a child. We are done here.

          • George T

            Pot: Agreed. I’m the kettle, and you just called me black (^_^)

          • Oshtur

            Poor homosexuals, no emotion in your lives except your hate for Christians.
            Sad creatures.

          • George T

            Oshtur: I’m not a homosexual. Thanks for showing everybody that you start conversations with pre-conceived notions, bias, and prejudice. Good to know what kind of person I’m chatting with (^_^)

          • LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord

            It takes more faith to be an Atheist than it does to be a Christian.

        • George T

          The Last Trump: It’s not a belief system. It is a statement of a lack of belief. It is not a positive assertion regarding the existence or non-existence of a deity or deities.

          And they even have churches with congregations!

          Yes, social gatherings that we humorously call churches (^_^)

          Yes, a more fanatical bunch you’ll never meet!

          I guess you weren’t around for 9/11.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          Of course it is a religion. Here is the creed they taught me when I was an atheist. (Shssh. Keep it quiet – no outsiders are supposed to know):

          The Atheist Creed:

          I, the atheist, recite my blind faith:

          1. That the universe miraculously popped into existence out of nothing uncaused by anything.
          2. That life magically sprang forth from non-life when lightning hit some mud.
          3. That minds and morals evolved from molecules through monkeys.
          4. That there is no God, and I hate Him.

          • The Last Trump

            Ahh, yes. Today’s “science”. 🙂

          • Ambulance Chaser

            No atheist believes any of that.

          • Ronald Carter

            He’s been told that many times before.

          • The Last Trump

            We’ll take that as a “yes” then.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes what?

          • Ronald Carter

            How are atheists supposed to hate a God they don’t believe is even there? Neat trick.

            No, this isn’t anyone’s creed, it reads like an evangelical Christian temper tantrum. No atheist believes a word of this.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            OK, Ronald, I generally do not address blind faithers, but in your case I will make one exception:

            “At first glance, this finding seemed to reflect an error. How could people be angry with God if they did not believe in God? Reanalyses of a second dataset revealed similar patterns: Those who endorsed their religious beliefs as “atheist/agnostic” or “none/unsure” reported more anger toward God than those who reported a religious affiliation.”

            “The most striking finding was that when Exline looked only at subjects who reported a drop in religious belief, their faith was least likely to recover if anger toward God was the cause of their loss of belief. In other words, anger toward God may not only lead people to atheism but give them a reason to cling to their disbelief.”

            http://www .firstthings .com/web-exclusives/2011/01/when-atheists-are-angry-at-god

            Now, you can be sure the other 3 creedal points can all be backed up by the science and philosophy that blind faith atheists deny.

          • Ronald Carter

            You don’t address “blind faithers”. That’s cute, considering that you’re a Christian and address other Christians constantly.

            I suppose you looked at that article you sent and shrugged your shoulders and said “Q.E.D.”. People get angry and abandon God, I get it. But that’s just SOME people. And most of the atheists I know are not angry people in general, they are calmer and cooler and don’t seek to lay blame on anyone or anything when their lives take a turn for the worse, as all our lives will do from time to time.

            So are you telling me, then, that this one article is the basis for the “Atheist Creed” you have come up with? How many people have embraced it so far? How many other articles have you looked at, and not just the ones that support your confirmation bias?

            If I send you an article whose findings are at complete variance from this one – not difficult to do, by the way – would that cause you to re-evaluate in any way?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Thank you for unwittingly proving that you are a blind faither by denying the evidence I presented you.

            I fully expected that – I was one for 42 years too.

            Thanks for making my day and adding to my database. Really. 🙂

          • Ronald Carter

            Oh – PLEASE don’t thank me, WorldGoneCrazy, because you did not prove a single thing. What you did was pointed to a 6-year old article which was in no imaginable sense remotely proof of anything. If it were more than that, it would have said so – but more importantly, we would have been using these findings in a very concrete way in the six years that have elapsed since the article was written.

            It certainly appears a lot of people have gotten a lot of mileage out of this article though, even Conservapedia references it. But this is how poor a reference it is – even if her report is accurate, she’s still not speaking on behalf of all atheists, just the ones in her test group, so can you tell me a) how this means all atheists are angry at God, and b) how it in any way justifies the so-called Atheist Creed you have come up with?

          • The Last Trump

            He’s already in your database.
            Say hi to Val. Again.
            This Jocasta fella is a real sucker for punishment.
            Keeps coming to the right place for it, though doesn’t he? 🙂

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You are always ahead of me on these things, Trump. That’s why you got the Gold and I had to settle for Bronze. No doubt, it will be that way in Heaven too. Keep up the great work!

          • The Last Trump

            From where I’m sitting I think I’d be lucky to even get an honourable mention in any race you’re a part of!
            Oh, and, he’s also BeWhoYouAre.
            I know right? More profiles than you can shake a stick at!
            Seriously disturbed.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Yes, BeWhoYouAre was an obvious one. Frankly, most of these demons are so alike it really is difficult to tell ANY of them apart.

          • Ronald Carter

            You’ve been calling lots of people “blind faithers” lately. But I don’t think you know why.

          • George T

            WorldGoneCrazy: As Guzzman has pointed out in other places, atheists and *none/unsure* are two different data sets. Mixing them together skews the results if that was the target information.

          • The Last Trump

            How would you know?

          • Ronald Carter

            Because it is patently absurd and makes zero sense.

          • George T

            WorldGoneCrazy: Then you were an atheist that didn’t understand his or her own belief (^_^)

            Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            False. Under that definition, atheism could be true when God exists. That definition is a measure of one’s psychological state, not a truth claim.

            Atheism is the assertion that there is no God – at least in intellectual and philosophical circles. The reason that you see your definition so much on chatboards is because these are unsophisticated products of a dumbed down educational system who desire to claim the mantle of atheism without providing any evidence for their truth claim that there is no God.

            Serious atheists use serious sources:

            ” ‘Atheism’ means the negation of theism, the denial of the existence of God.” – Stanford University Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

          • George T

            WorldGoneCrazy: False to you too…

            Under that definition, atheism could be true when God exists. That
            definition is a measure of one’s psychological state, not a truth claim.

            Lacking a belief in a god doesn’t depend on a god to exist. I also lack a belief in Bigfoot. That doesn’t mean that Bigfoot must exist for me to lack belief in it.

            Atheism is the assertion that there is no God

            That’s one definition. Not all atheists are “hard atheists”, which is the term we use for that definition.

            claim the mantle of atheism without providing any evidence for their truth claim that there is no God.

            No truth claim involved. Until death, we can’t know what is true after death. So what happens after death is a matter of faith… a belief without evidence. I lack faith in anything being after death. I make know claim of knowing what is after death but see no reason to positively believe any claim of knowledge so far.

            Serious atheists use serious sources:

            Congratulations on your conversion to atheism!!! (^_^)

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            “Lacking a belief in a god doesn’t depend on a god to exist.”

            Exactly, which is why your definition of atheism is not a truth claim, but a statement of your feelings. This is why you are a blind faith atheist.

            “That’s one definition.”

            No, that is the one that sophisticated and scholarly atheists use. The emotional definition you use is a slogan useful on internet chatboards.

            “No truth claim involved.”

            Precisely. You just admitted that you are not in search of truth, but are an emotional blind faith atheist.

            “So what happens after death is a matter of faith… a belief without evidence.”

            Nice shifting of the goalposts to life after death. Good to see you are at least thinking about it. And your definition of faith applies only to you blind faith atheists, but is not that shared by Christians.

            “Congratulations on your conversion to atheism”

            Sounds like a religion you are pushing, not a scholarly definition for atheism. Your definition is more useful to the Psych Ward.

          • George T

            WorldGoneCrazy:

            Exactly, which is why your definition of atheism is not a truth claim,
            but a statement of your feelings. This is why you are a blind faith
            atheist.

            Incorrect. It is a belief claim. Specifically a statement of lacking belief. It is faith to claim that you think or know something exists with no evidence.

            No, that is the one that sophisticated and scholarly atheists use. The
            emotional definition you use is a slogan useful on internet chatboards.

            So, again, you’re announcing your now an atheist?

            Precisely. You just admitted that you are not in search of truth, but are an emotional blind faith atheist.

            Neither of us can claim to know the truth. I lack belief in a god or gods. You claim to know truth with no evidence. Yours is a faith claim. I’m just stating that I’m not going to make a leap of faith like you have.

            Nice shifting of the goalposts to life after death. Good to see you are
            at least thinking about it. And your definition of faith applies only
            to you blind faith atheists, but is not that shared by Christians.

            Afterlife claims are one major quality of a religion. If you don’t want to discuss that… no worries (^_^)

          • The Last Trump

            Exactly.
            You BELIEVE there is no God.
            You just can’t prove it. Religious one.

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Hey, Trump! He is using the emotional definition of atheism, not the truth claim definition that serious atheists use. He wants to be able to call himself an atheist without having to put up any evidence for his worldview.

            It is a lazy form of atheism – for people who don’t want to do much thinking. Happy Memorial Day, BTW!

          • George T

            WorldGoneCrazy: You’re running afoul of definition fallacy.

          • George T

            The Last Trump: Your reading comprehension skills are atrocious (^_^)

            Lacking belief and actively believing something are two different things.

          • namelessghost

            ” Here is the creed they taught me when I was an atheist.”

            Who is this “they” you speak of? The voices inside your head?

        • Ronald Carter

          Atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color.

          • The Last Trump

            Ah, you religious fanatics are so funny!

          • Ronald Carter

            Oh? What’s my religion, Last Trump? Since you know next to nothing about me, this should be pretty entertaining…

          • The Last Trump

            Sadly, we know all about you all TOO WELL, trollster!
            Stalks Christians 24/7 on Christian websites desperately peddling his anti-Christian agenda. Plays music in a Lutheran church, claims to believe in “God” (the one HE somehow guessed is the RIGHT ONE! which just so happens to accept and endorse homosexuality and transgenderism as it turns out- Shocker!), wouldn’t go to church, however, to honour that God he claims to believe in, though, if he wasn’t actually getting paid to be there….
            Yeah. Real stand up guy.
            Seriously dude. You JUST posted all this like 24 hours ago!
            Entertaining alright! Hee, hee! Too easy! 🙂
            KEEP posting!

          • Ronald Carter

            Oh whatever, all the usual smug hee heeing and baseless accusations. If I were a troll I would be insulting you and taunting you (hmmm…much as you are doing to ME, come to think of it…) and not pointing out to you that you have no facts, no evidence, and no proof. All you have is hot air, smug taunting, and self-congratulatory hee hees.

            My God requires no honoring.

            Nothing wrong with homosexuals and transgenders.

            Of course I will keep posting – did you actually think you’d scare me away?

          • The Last Trump

            Scare you away?
            Never happen. You’re simply too entertaining Jocasta.
            Ooops! I mean “Ron” 😉
            Not to mention obsessed.
            And the work you do here is just too important.
            It does wonders for MY cause!
            Keep up the good work, brother! Remember now – Jesus loves you bud!

          • Ronald Carter

            Jocasta?
            Oh, I think I understand the Ron-in-quotes thing now. You think I’m someone else you have encountered here who is back using a different name. Well, like everything else we discuss Last Trump, you’re out to lunch on that as well. It makes sense now because I’ve seen you do it with other people too. I have to wonder if you’re not concerned about coming across like a paranoia freak.

            Anyway I’m glad to be entertaining. It’s quite a cycle we have going here – I make a point, I back it up with facts, and invite you to do the same thing, and you can’t/don’t and walk away strutting with self-righteous pride. I think you know everyone can see you’re a coward, you have no facts, and you’re playing to the crowd to cover up all your own insecurities.

            Pretty accurate?

          • The Last Trump

            The desperation in your posts is palpable. But you are doing better in maintaining your composure Muffin! Good job Jocasta!
            All of those banning’s you received finally starting to sink in huh?
            A little more control of your anger and less unravelling eh?
            Only took you what, say a dozen profiles thanks to WGC and yours truly?
            You’re welcome little buddy. Glad we could help!
            Now about that alarming obsession with Christians….

          • Ronald Carter

            Who is WGC and when was I banned? If we are going to suddenly start talking about things that went on between you and someone else and you expect me to play along with your game, you’re going to have to throw me a bone here and there so I at least understand the rules of your paranoia game. And I searched Disqus and found no one named Jocasta so I can’t even do my own research. Sorry Last Trump. You’re down the rabbit hole with this and I’m not going to play guessing games or pretend to know what you are talking about. Call me Jocasta or “Ron” if it makes you feel better, if the only thing affected is what you are going to call me I really don’t care.

          • The Last Trump

            Just what you said every other time I “outed” you. Have it your way.
            Waste somebody else’s time then with your countless profiles and fake personas. The hate and intolerance is always the same.
            You just can’t hide who you really are. 🙁

          • Ronald Carter

            I’m not hiding anything, Last Trump. If you think I’m someone else I’ll tell you exactly what I told you when you were pathetically unable to provide Jesus’ own words on the subject of homosexuality and when you were unable to provide links to stories about transgendered thugs hiding out in public bathrooms. It’s a simple matter of put up or shut up, and anything else is just game-playing on your part. I am not interested in that, and neither, I’m sure, is the crowd you so obviously keep appealing to for adulation and assistance.

          • The Last Trump

            Nice to see you too Val. 😉

          • Ronald Carter

            Whatever.

          • The Last Trump

            THAT’S what “SHE” used to say!
            Lord, how we miss “her”….
            😉

          • Ronald Carter

            Not interested.

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, truth be told, neither were we.
            But she just wouldn’t go away!
            Well, LOOK who I’m talking to!

        • George T

          The Last Trump: Atheism isn’t a claim of there being no god. It’s a lack of belief in a god.

          And they even have churches with congregations!

          I know that I’ve explained this to you before. This popular social group uses the word “church” to poke fun.

        • hamfish

          How many times do you have to be told? Its as much a religion as no car is a make of car and bald is a hairstyle. You’re a damn idiot.

    • hamfish

      That’s a shiny mirror you got there Grace.

  • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

    The 1st amendment as adopted in 1791 reads as follows:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
    or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
    speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
    assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    Does the playing of the Lord’s Prayer song at a high-school graduation ceremony equals to the US Congress making a law/rule to establish the religion of Christianity.? = likely no.
    …….I think the intention of the 1st Amendment was for USA to hv no State Church or religion, ala the govt-supported Church of England, Lutheran Church of Germany, Catholic Vatican in Rome, Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia, Shia Islam in Iran, etc. IOW, the US govt should not be supporting any Church or religion thru funding, building Churches/mosques/temples, subsidies, etc.
    …….Govt support = establishment.

    • George T

      disqus_O2BUmbLecp: Apparently you haven’t learned about the 14th amendment, Engel v Vitale, or Wallace v Jaffree. Did you also stop after reading Genesis and claim to know everything about The New Testament and Christianity?

      • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

        The Fourteenth Amendment (Amendment XIV) to the United States Constitution was adopted on July 9, 1868, as one of the Reconstruction Amendments.
        The amendment addresses citizenship rights and equal protection of the
        laws, and was proposed in response to issues related to former slaves
        following the American Civil War. The amendment was bitterly contested, particularly by Southern states,
        which were forced to ratify it in order for them to regain
        representation in Congress. The Fourteenth Amendment, particularly its
        first section, is one of the most litigated parts of the Constitution,
        forming the basis for landmark decisions such as Roe v. Wade (1973) regarding abortion, Bush v. Gore (2000) regarding the 2000 presidential election, and Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) regarding same-sex marriage. The amendment limits the actions of all state and local officials, including those acting on behalf of such an official.
        (wikipedia)
        _ _ _ _ _ _ _

        Seems, the liberal-dominated SCOTUS, since the 1960s, has misinterpreted the 14th Amendment, in order to enable/abet the liberal Blue States to pander for the votes of feminists, Hispanics, LGBTQs, atheists, unions, Blacks, etc.

        In truth, the playing of the song is a ‘separation of State n Church’ issue n should hv little to do with the 14th Amendment.

        • George T

          disqus_O2BUmbLecp: Oh, how dare an amendment be used to further guarantee equal rights for all citizens! THE HORROR! The horror!

          • TheBottomline4This

            What about equal rights for the unborn “person”…as your Hillary calls a baby yet to be born???

          • George T

            TheBottomline4This: You mean the fetus that could naturally be aborted? What about the woman? You’re willing to suspend her personhood and rights for a lump of cells? Can I suspend your personhood and rights for a lump of cancerous cells that you’re hosting?

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Like I said, the 14th Amendment has been misused n abused for the political agendas of the liberal Blue States. And it was enacted by the liberal Blue States of the North to bully the conservative Red States of the South.

            Equal rights.? Recently, the SCOTUS has legalized the Terms & Conditions n EULAs of companies that disallow their customers from filing class-action lawsuits against the companies = can only seek arbitration. This has allowed tech companies, eg M$, n debt-collecting companies to legally abuse their customers..

          • George T

            disqus_O2UmbLecp:

            Like I said, the 14th Amendment has been misused n abused for the political agendas of the liberal Blue States.

            Are you saying you want to strip rights from your fellow man? Are you working up to justifying oppressing others?

            Recently, the SCOTUS has legalized the Terms & Conditions n EULAs of
            companies that disallow their customers from filing class-action
            lawsuits against the companies = can only seek arbitration. This has
            allowed tech companies, eg M$, n debt-collecting companies to legally
            abuse their customers.

            Yup. I agree that conservatives have really screwed up by giving so many rights and powers to corporations over citizens.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            What rights r u referring to.?
            .
            No, it was not legalized by the conservatives, but by the same liberal-leaning SCOTUS who had previously legalized Obamacare n SSM.

          • George T

            disqus_O2UmbLecp:

            What rights r u referring to.?

            Which rights do you think should be stripped from your fellow citizens?

            No, it was not legalized by the conservatives, but by the same
            liberal-leaning SCOTUS who had previously legalized Obamacare n SSM.

            Mitt Romney and other Republicans are liberal? I’m sure they’d be surprised to hear that.

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Like Trump n Christie, Mitt Romney was a Rino from Massachusetts, a very liberal Blue State in the North. He was not a conservative Republican who mostly come from the Red States in the South, eg Rick Perry n Rick Santorum.

          • George T

            disqus_O2UmbLecp: Excellent example of a “No true Scotsman” fallacy you’ve got there (^_^)

          • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

            Yet, u n the liberals say that people should not stereotype or racial-profile others.
            …….IOW, not all Republicans r fully conservative, esp those from the liberal Blue States in the North.

            Politics in America is very different from the politics in Scotland n England, eg the 1861 American Civil War over the right to secede from the Union.

          • George T

            disqus_O2BUmbLecp: I’m not stereotyping. You’re trying to distance yourself from individuals who don’t help your narrative. Romney and others involved in these corporate actions are self-proclaimed Republican conservatives.

            P.S. So how about those rights that you want to take away from your fellow citizens?

    • Slidellman4life

      The First Amendment says Congress can neither create (which is what “establish” means) a religion nor keep people from practicing theirs. I think that’s pretty clear, as it gives a student or a teacher the right to pray on campus without government interference.

  • Eileen Dennis

    give praise to God we need to take a stand just like the atheist do and fight back

    • George T

      Eileen Dennis: Yes, join us atheists in opposing church/state collision. Keep them separate to guarantee all citizens religious rights (^_^)

  • Gemmo Boon

    Time to be bold and, at times, in their faces.

    • George T

      Gemmo Boon: Agreed! Way to go FFRF!

      • Gemmo Boon

        Go transgender yourself, Georgie.

        • George T

          Gemmo Boon: No need. I’m happy with my birth gender. Feel free to modify yours if you’re so interested (^_^)

  • mark f

    As a Christian we do not set our beliefs aside to do our jobs as Superintendent Melissa Watson describes, but in fact we are called to set our jobs aside if they conflict with Christianity and the beliefs that it represents. Herein lies the problem in America.

  • Kerry Hall

    If you are afraid to stand up for your rights, you will lose them..Hats off to this young man. Shame on the atheist.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Why shame on the atheist? He was standing up for his rights as well. Do you only praise people who “stand up for their rights” if they represent a side you agree with?

      • Kerry Hall

        No, but if the atheist had been up at the podium, he could have said whatever he liked. The young man at the podium has EVERY RIGHT to exercise his 1st amendment rights and the atheist had no right to try to rob him of that anymore than the young man would have no right to try to stop the atheist from saying what he wanted to say, HAD HE (the atheist) been at the podium. (which he wasn’t) No State religion was forced here by Congress. Just a disgruntled atheist trying to get his way.

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Let’s break this down. The atheist: was he or was he not standing up for what he believed in?

          • Kerry Hall

            Sure he was, but he was also trying to take someone else’s right to their free speech. Had he been in the same situation as the young man speaking (I’ll say this again) he could have said whatever he wanted to as well. I said shame on the atheist because he was trying to take someone else’s right away. His right to free speech had not been infringed on by this young man. If he was in the audience he had every right to leave, to heckle, or to just leave the kid alone. The young man did not infringe on any of the atheists rights from what was printed in the article.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            “Sure he was”

            Okay, so then you don’t actually applaud people for standing up for what they believe in. You applaud people for standing up for what they believe in as long as you believe in it too.

          • Kerry Hall

            Do you actually read the things you comment on? I applauded the young man because of his youth and his willingness to go against those trying to void his right to speak. The Atheist, well within his rights to complain, was trying to take away the young mans right to speak, as was the school administration. Again, they were well within their rights to do so, but the young man showed some backbone, while the atheist went to someone he thought could put a stop to this young man exercising his right to speak. The atheist and the young man were in two completely different situations and it was my opinion that the young man showed more gumption and backbone, so he was applauded. The atheist on the other hand was not in the position to deliver this speech/prayer, so his situation was different. Had he been on the stage delivering this address, I doubt we would even be having this discussion because it probably would not have even been reported, BUT had he said something controversial enough to have been posted as this article was, I would defend his right to say it as well, UNLESS in doing so he had slandered or wronged someones character, which by the way, wasn’t done by this young man. Civil disobedience is not always wrong, but this young man’s rights are just as important as anyone else’s, even if they’re atheist. And just a quick question, what did the atheist believe in?

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Yes, I read the things I comment on. I just ignore the irrelevant parts.

            The only question I’d like you to answer is this: do you applaud people for standing up for their beliefs, or only for standing up for the beliefs that you agree with? (If it helps, I don’t generally applaud people for standing up for beliefs I don’t agree with.)

            “And just a quick question, what did the atheist believe in?”

            The Establishment Clause, presumably. But you already conceded that he was standing up for a belief.

          • Kerry Hall

            I suppose I don’t applaud them either, but I would defend his right to do so.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Thanks, that’s all I wanted to know.

  • TallZeke

    Hey, we had 2 ministers at my public school graduation, both prayed, both quoted the Bible – so did the principal.

    Somehow – amazingly – this did not establish a theocracy in America.
    But then, atheists didn’t constantly play victim back in those days.

  • Brad F

    FWIW, George Washington (you know, the Deist guy), after he took his oath of office on the Bible, did two things not in the script: he kissed the Bible, then said, “So help me God!”

    The atheists try to create the Founders in their own image, but they have to lie to do it.

    • TheBottomline4This

      Good one. Those who don’t agree with the Founding Fathers do want to reshape them and that time to their own image. Interesting point.

    • Jalapeno

      To be fair, exclamations like that in no way mean that he wasn’t a deist, his beliefs have been in question all the way back to the time he was alive.

      • TheBottomline4This

        Now generations always question things of the past, but that questioning does not change the truth.

        • Jalapeno

          They were questioning it while he was still alive…

          • TheBottomline4This

            The point is Jally, the questioning does not change the truth, no matter which way the person who is questioning leans.

          • Jalapeno

            So… You’re not going to pretend that it’s an easy question anymore, right? Not going to pretend that a simple exclamation means that every other person, even the people who knew him, were wrong?

          • TheBottomline4This

            Um, you said that to Brad, not me. He can answer your question to him.

          • Jalapeno

            I’m talking to you, in response to your words.

    • George T

      Brad F: By keeping church and government separate it allows the people to practice whatever faith they wish, or not practice. I support your right to practice whatever religion you wish. By supporting you, I support my own rights to not practice any faith.

    • Gal 5:22-23

      Yes, George Washington did think organized religion was a good thing and fostered it as a public official. But what is known is that he never took communion at his church and was described by friends after his death as a Deist.

      Following the teachings of Jesus was advocated as a good thing by Christians and Deists.

  • PastorRon Aldridge

    Atheists say they insist that services be all-inclusive but, the very fact that they insist on removing certain materials “excludes” the Christians who want them. NOTHING is all-inclusive! Simplified: Heaven is for believers only and hell is for the rest.

    • TheBottomline4This

      Let’em whine. This young man did exactly the right thing. Glad all or most there joined in 🙂 Maybe if so much offends the atheists, they should homeschool / do classes online. Not sure why they’re offended by something that they claim doesn’t exist. It’s not like it was a sermon, it was just a short prayer.

      • George T

        TheBottomline4This: Not sure why you’re always assuming that people are offended by your mythology. Do you need to be offended to point out a burglary in progress? No offense is needed for someone to point out a 1st amendment violation.

    • Jalapeno

      Not being validated and being excluded are two very different things.

    • Gal 5:22-23

      A Christian can include pray in anything anytime, it doesn’t have to be part of the program.

  • http://blogflumesplash.blogspot.com/ Shane McGraw

    Valedictorian can include the prayer in his speech. Good for him for standing up for his beliefs. The public high school itself cannot request or urge the class to sing or recite a prayer. They did the right thing by officially dropping it from the program.

  • Susan Ford Keller

    And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

  • evelyn

    Just when i was thinking that there is no hope for this Country, along come these young people who have more courage then the polititions who are afrais to stand up for America. God Bless these young people.

  • Ruthann

    Great stuff!
    Teens are naturally rebellious (I speak from experience, both as rebellious teen and mom), it’s a shame churches’ youth leaders don’t find ways to harness that rebelliousness in constructive ways, teach the kids that it’s cool to be different from the crowd, to be their own person, to take a stand for the right instead of being clones of all the other kids. We should also be teaching them to question authority, especially in light of how PC the typical public school teacher is today. It isn’t hard to turn kids against the mind control of these repressive, conformist adults.

  • Ken M

    Give atheists political power and they’ll do a lot more than prohibit prayers at graduations. Wherever they’ve wielded power, millions of dead Christians. Don’t ever believe for a moment these people are tolerant, that’s just the big lie they keep repeating.

    • LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord

      What you have said is true. They are only tolerant to those who hate Christians.

      • George T

        LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord: Incorrect *Straw Man fallacy* characterization of atheists. Your prejudice is showing 😉

        • LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord

          Still Praying for you.
          Shalom <

          • George T

            LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord: I understand that you’re trying to wish me well via Christian terminology. I appreciate it, and wish you well. (^_^)

          • LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Good thing is that if I am wrong you have nothing to lose with my Prayers for you.
            And if I am right you will one day see that I cared enough to Pray for you.
            (_–)

          • George T

            LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord: Ah! Pascal’s Wager. It’s a false dichotomy. What if we’re both wrong and Odin banishes us to Jotunheim, or Allah will send us both to Hell for not following his prophet who succeeded where Jesus failed.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Secular means atheist and also immoral; that’s why the Western atheism is worse than communism. Moreover, secularism has been purposefully blasphemous against Christianity in recent years. Public schools oppose and oppress the Christians, and it has been injustice for at leat 3-4 decades. It’s time for government to pay for all private education; it’s actually long overdue. Villains have been draining Christian people’s resources while brainwashing children to be godless and trashy-in-mind in their institutions. Secularists may have ranted neutrality but they revealed what they are made of as they gained more power in the society. Ideologies also
    get corrupt because of human greed. The Western secularism is one grand proof that man cannot be good apart from God. Truth never changes. Americans need Christianity to get saved and be fair and proper.

    • George T

      Grace Kim Kwon:

      Secular means atheist

      Incorrect! Secular is “not connected with religious or spiritual matters.” Atheist is “a lack of belief in god(s).”

      You’re welcome (^_^)

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        People do not live out the dictionary definition. Secular means being godless and immoral.

        • George T

          Grace Kim Kwon: Incorrect (^_^) There’s a fine distinction between “godless” and not believing in a god. I’m sorry if you’re not capable of comprehending the difference.

          Your claim of immorality is wrong and sets you passing judgment before god. Isn’t it up to your religion’s god to pass judgment, not you?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Jesus commanded us to judge righteously. Read Matthew ch. 5-7 and John 3.

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon: But what’s righteous about bearing false witness? You’ve repeatedly lied about the intent of atheist groups and individuals.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans have been always well-protected by the Church you have no idea what atheists’ reign does to people in the world. What is so evil about today’s secular Americans is that they attack the Church who has fed them and nurtured them all along. Playboys and prostitutes repay the good with evil to their parents. Read Psalm ch. 14 to know what atheists are made of and what will happen to them. You guys need Christianity to act like human.

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon: Your book of myths is silly (^_^)

            The US government is founded on a non-intervention concept regarding religion. It is secular, meaning not involved in religion. That allows citizens to practice religion free of government intervention.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Liberty and equality is exclusively the Judeo-Christian concept from the Holy Bible. Your Bible-illiteracy makes you stay ignorant of the noble origins. Today, the Western government bodies demands people to endorse sexual immorality they are not what they are intended anymore.

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon: No, liberty and equality aren’t exclusive to your favorite mythology.

            Anything else?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, liberty and equality are exclusively from the Holy Bible. Pagan mankind did not know that those existed. Your forefathers stole good things exclusively from the Holy Bible. You Westerners need to learn the Holy Bible and the history of the Western civilization. Atheists omit a lot of historical facts. The reason the West lost both liberty and morality this century is because you scorn both Christianity and your own parents. Stop rejecting the truth and dishonoring your own parents. You guys are just playboys and prostitutes apart from the teachings of the Holy Bible.

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon:

            Yes, liberty and equality are exclusively from the Holy Bible.

            No, they aren’t (^_^)

            Pagan
            mankind did not know that those existed.

            False dichotomy. Babylonian, Zoroastrian, Egyptian, Chinese, and many other cultures and beliefs conceived of various qualities of liberty and equality.

            Your forefathers stole good
            things exclusively from the Holy Bible.

            Actually, they looked to something called The Enlightenment, which was a popular philosophical movement in Europe.

            You Westerners need to learn the
            Holy Bible and the history of the Western civilization.

            I did. Raised attending an Episcopalian church. Dropped that like a bad habit around junior high.

            The reason the West lost both liberty and
            morality this century is because you scorn both Christianity and your
            own parents.

            Your simplistic accusation doesn’t account for many societal factors and issues.

            Stop rejecting the truth and dishonoring your own parents.

            I’ve been telling you the truth for a while now, and I’d kindly ask you to not make assumptions about my parents.

            You guys are just playboys and prostitutes apart from the teachings of
            the Holy Bible.

            Baseless assertion. Since you’ve called me a name, I feel it’s fair to call you a fanatical raving harpy who besmirches the image of good and kind Christian men and women.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are wrong. Non-Judeo-Christian civilizations never discovered or even conceived ANY concept that men and women and children are equal. It is exclusively Judeo-Christian in the entire planet. You liberals imagine stuff too much. Non-christendom always everywhere thought women and children are possessions of men. Every single one of them. The West was unique only because of the Christian religion and the access to to the Holy Bible. Enlightenment only made the Europeans nudist and polluted the planet. It is Protestant Reformation that made all the difference in Europe, made everyone have literacy, and made Europe incomparably superior with pursuit of objective truth unlike all others. Episcopalian is not a Christian church but a social club of humanists. They don’t read the Holy Bible. You must stop attacking Christianity and disgracing of your own good parents. You guys are truly crazy. You secular Americans had too many stupid drinking parties and junk toxic entertainment on a planet of billions of suffering humans for too long. My point is that you must value sexual purity and the life of babies. Stop being hopeless playboys. If you know Christians are good, stop attacking them in your land but listen to them and repent of your evil doing.

          • Edward MacGuire

            Nonsense. Women in Sparta and Ancient Egypt had freedoms women in christian countries did not get till the 20th century. Christianity has always been patriarchal like Judaism and Islam. In general, all religions are inherently undemocratic and marginalize women whenever they can.
            The enlightenment was certainly not driven by Christianity in general or Protestantism in particular, although the protestants in northern Europe were not persecuted by the church as the Catholics in the south were.

            Laplace, on being asked by Napoleon why there was no mention of a creator in his paper on astronomy replied that he had no need for that hypothesis. That summarizes the enlightenment.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, all civilizations always have/had slaves. You never look closer to other cultures because you’ve been spoiled by the gentle Church. Mankind never knew all humans were equal until they discovered what the Holy Bible teaches. Universal equality and universal literacy are exclusive Biblical teachings, and the Western Christians were the first species to carry them out on Planet Earth. Christians alone abolished slavery on their own without other groups instructing or interfering. Slaves found freedom by reading the Holy Bible. Learn your own history, please.

            The unbelieving Western Europeans and Americans/Canadaians/Australians cannot oppress the colored anymore they are oppressing the moral Christians by forcing people to condone the most despicable sexual immorality this century. You guys are too well-fed and being bored and always go insane by opposing Christianity. Stop your evil now. You are never sorry for your colonization. Thank God that the Westerners were not sexual pervs when they own slaves. Your parents and grandparents had a lot of noble things and virtues that the world can mimick and get benefits, but you have none regarding morality. You guys have no rights to force your immoral culture upon the world now. Napoleon was defeated by the Christian Russians. France would not have been so perv if they did not hate Christianity so. Soviet Union got dissolved and bounced back to Orthodox Christianity.

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon: I’m always amazed at the fantasy histories you create (^_^)

            Thank God that the Westerners were not sexual pervs when they own slaves.

            AAAAAAahahahahahahaha!!! Have you ever read about the black ancestors of my nations founding fathers?

          • George T

            Grace Kim Kwon:

            Non-Judeo-Christian civilizations never discovered or even conceived ANY concept that men and women and children are equal.

            Christianity also didn’t do that. If you claimed that Christian men and women fought for those ideals and rights, I’ll agree with that. Claiming the religion caused that flat out wrong.

            made everyone have literacy

            Public schooling allowed for broader literacy, not The Reformation. That allowed people to read the bible and question religious leaders who used to be the only ones who could read bibles exclusively printed in Latin. Nobody but members of the church knew Latin, so they had no access to any scripture.

            You secular Americans had too many stupid drinking parties and junk
            toxic entertainment on a planet of billions of suffering humans for too
            long. My point is that you must value sexual purity and the life of
            babies. Stop being hopeless playboys. If you know Christians are good,
            stop attacking them in your land but listen to them and repent of your
            evil doing.

            More Straw Man assertions about people you’ve never met. Your prejudice is showing (^_^)

            If you know Christians are good, stop attacking them in your land but listen to them and repent of your evil doing.

            I didn’t say that all Christians are good. There are good Christian men and women. Your comments show that you aren’t one of them.

        • WorldGoneCrazy

          God bless you, Sister Grace, for your kind words of wisdom today!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Thank you so much. Christian America has bad descendants. Bad kids should get kicked out even if they had good parents, because they must not bully the Christians in a nation that meant to be Christian. It’s such a warped world. May King Jesus return very soon and reclaim His Kingdom on earth.

          • LadyFreeBird♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Amen.May our King Jesus return soon.

  • Chris Henke

    The Problem: officials decided to drop the song from the program to avoid a potential legal battle…. where is the fight of Paul? Where is Timothy? Where is our rock of Peter? Those who DIED for our faith, AND have become our role models would be ashamed that while they died, we are not willing to even entertain a legal battle. Christians are running away from the enemy, not knocking on the gates of hell.

    • George T

      Chris Henke: Incorrect. The problem is the school staff didn’t know or willingly violated the 1st amendment by injecting sectarian activities into their graduation program.

  • Amy

    About once a month the Jehovah’s Witnesses set up a book table right by
    the entrance of my local public library, and, amazingly, none of the
    atheist croakers have made a fuss about it – yet. I have no use for the
    JWs’ religion, but my guiding principle is “What harm does it do?” and obvious answer is “None at all,” just like the Gideons passing out
    Bibles in public schools did no harm. The atheists are never honest enough to say “You can’t do that because I don’t like it!” so they do their usual song and dance about “separation of church and state,” which proves they are totally ignorant of what “establishment of religion” actually means.

    • George T

      Amy: Is it on school grounds?

      The FFRF addresses church/state issues brought to their attention. Feel free to contact them if it is on school grounds.

    • Joe Soap

      Presumably you wouldn’t mind Korans in schools either then? After all what harm could it do?

  • Gary

    For all you atheists out there(maybe 2 or 3)-STFU and ask the school to provide you with earplugs.

  • Gary

    For all you atheists out there(maybe 2,or 3)-Stop bellyaching & ask the school to provide you with earplugs. Then, after the graduation ceremony, take a long walk off a short pier.

  • Linda JJ

    Obama and these Jesus Haters are causing a revival in America. Praise be to God!!!

    • Joe Soap

      Then why are you complaining?

      • Linda JJ

        I still have an obligation to call out evil. But it’s amazing how God turns it around and uses it for good! Praise the Lord.

        • Joe Soap

          So you have an obligation to cut off your nose to spite your face. Interesting.

  • peanut butter

    Offer an extra non-religious baccalaureate… there will be few to attend that service. Let THEM feel how it is to be singled out for their LACK of beliefs.

  • Joe Soap

    Why not do all this religious stuff at the end of the ceremony. Then all those who are not interested could walk out. It would be interesting to see how many of the alleged christians stayed for the hymns.

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