Reason Over Religion? Professing Atheists Rally in Washington, D.C. for Godless Politics

Reason Rally-compressedWASHINGTON — Thousands of professing atheists and agnostics from across the country descended on Washington, D.C. today for the “Reason Rally,” an event that is designed to discuss politics from a godless perspective.

“That’s the reason we’re holding this in an election year,” executive director Lyz Liddell told CNN. “We want to see reason taking precedence over religious-driven ideology.”

“The goal of Reason Rally 2016 is to showcase the presence and power of the nonreligious voting bloc, and to demand that reason be put at the forefront of our public and political discourse,” the website for the event also reads. “[W]e are preparing to exercise our power at the voting box to bring good sense back to government.”

The event opened this morning with the Gay Men’s Chorus of Washington, D.C., and was soon followed by the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance.

Speakers throughout the day include outspoken atheist and entertainer Penn Jillette, Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker from the Freedom From Religion Foundation, David Silverman of American Atheists, Bill Nye, “the Science Guy” and Tony Pinn of the American Humanist Association.

Several lawmakers were also tapped to speak at the rally, including Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-Hi.), a Hindu, and Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.), a professing Christian, as well as Maryland State Senator Jamie Raskin, a progressive Jew.

Topics of discussion include climate change, abortion and homosexual and transgender issues, as well as increasing the atheist and agnostic voice in politics.

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“We want reason to be the core of public policies rather than religious ideals,” Liddell told reporters. “This will be the moment where people start to see the secular voting bloc in the same way they talk about Jewish voters and Catholic voters. We’ll matter. They’ll realize we’re organized, they’ll realize we’re voting, and our perspective will be considered and taken into account.”

Larry Decker, the executive director of the Secular Coalition for America, told CNN that he was glad that Ted Cruz and John Kasich dropped out of the race as they had cited God as their reason to run for president.

“If you know that you can be a good person without believing in a god,” the event website reads. “If you think public policy should be based on scientific evidence, not religious beliefs … If you support the separation of church and state, then join us for the biggest gathering of nonreligious people in history!”

On Thursday and Friday, event organizers lobbied on Capitol Hill, requesting that lawmakers replace government funding for abstinence until marriage programs with sexual education programs that focus on birth control methods.

A number of Christians from across the country also attended the event—but for a different purpose: to share the gospel with those who deny their Creator as outlined in Romans 1. Some engaged in open-air preaching, some distributed tracts to passersby and some engaged in casual conversation with rally attendees.

“Atheists work hard against Christianity because they’re putting their hands over eyes and ears and shouting, ‘I refuse to see and hear truth!’ Their blind faith religion of natural processes is their way of explaining life without God—an anti-God religion,” wrote Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis in a recent Facebook post.

“The words of Daniel (5:23) describe today’s atheists: ‘The God who holds your breath in His hand and owns all your ways, you have not glorified,'” he said.


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  • bowie1

    Doesn’t the national anthem have the line “God Bless America” in it which it says was sung at this event?

    • Adam King

      “God Bless America” isn’t a line in the national anthem, which is “The Star Spangled Banner.” A later verse of the anthem has the words “in God is our trust,” but that verse is rarely sung. “God Bless America” is a separate song entirely.

      • bowie1

        Yes, another patriotic song…

    • 0pus

      They’re not patriots, this is all just a smokescreen to make them appear like respectable, patriotic Americans, which they are not. They love nothing but themselves.

      • james blue

        Upon what evidence do you make this charge?

      • Adam King

        That’s rank bigotry, and entirely untrue.

      • Nogods

        Isn’t arrogance claiming that you can talk to a god; claiming that god talks to you; claiming you have a “relationship” with a god; claiming to know the will of a god; and claiming to be one of god’s children? Just curious.

        • Joe

          Without the indwelling Holy Spirit, which resides in all believers, you and other non believers like yourself, can never understand spiritual matters, the word of God.

          1Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the
          spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are
          freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

          • Nogods

            I used to be a believer. I get it. You are just fooling yourself. Your god is just as real as Zeus. You just like pretending otherwise.

  • cobalt100

    The fool says in his heart, there is a God.

    • The Last Trump

      Should be retitled, “The MAGIC vs DESIGN Rally”
      The “science” of abracadabra, while entertaining, (like any good magic show), just fails so completely to answer any of the questions concerning the inescapable and irrefutable evidence of design with foresight and purpose.
      I hope there will be popcorn though!

      • gogo0

        walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the dead… magic tricks that fooled enough sheep-herding simpletons that people repeat those stories today.
        still funny to hear people calling the multi-million year process of life slowly forming “magic”, moments before telling us how much more likely an unseen infinite being creating everything in “days”, humanity out of dirt and a rib, and then designing that incest be the initial method of propagation.

        • The Last Trump

          Exploding dots, nothing creating everything with foresight and purpose, and non-life forming into life.
          You know, just because. A bunch of time went by!
          Yes, that does sound soooo much more likely than design. Magic it is.

          • Sir Osis

            Atheists don’t believe any of those strawmen.

          • gogo0

            because you dont know how it happened doesnt make it magic.
            still amusing that you guys talk down on science and the complexity of life like its a joke, and then push a book’s explanation that an unseen god created things out of nothing as the more sensible solution. the mocking position really doesnt work when your counterargument is absolute nonsense to anyone but fervent believers

          • Oboehner

            Never happened.

          • Nogods

            Why is the bible true? Because it says it is true!!! A smart person would see a problem with that.

          • Oboehner

            What does the Bible have to do with your religious beliefs? You evolutionists are a sad desperate bunch having to resort to attacking the Bible further proving you have nothing.

          • Nogods

            What god do you think is real and where did you learn about that god?

          • Oboehner

            Why, will that prove evolutionism?

          • Nogods

            Approximately one million peer reviewed publications are produced every year documenting research that is consistent with and supports evolution (Scientometrics. 2010 September 84(3); 575-603). Much of the research is conducted by god fearing religious folk. (July, 9th 2009 Pew research study.). You would think they would have an interest in disproving evolution and proving that their superstitious beliefs are true. Yet, there are ZERO peer reviewed publications supporting intelligent design/creationism/irreducible complexity or anything remotely resembling support for the idea that the universe was created by your god, with magic, about 6,000 years ago.

          • Oboehner

            Peer reviewed = one evolutionist patting the other on the back. Do tell what evolutionism has to do with ANYONE’S else’s beliefs? You keep bringing that up to try and make yours look better – doesn’t work.
            There are ZERO peer-reviewed publications supporting intelligent design/creationism/irreducible complexity or anything remotely resembling support for the idea that the universe was created? Gee, I Googled and found a bunch of stuff, you should try it. Abiogenesis = spontaneous generation = magic, but that magic is ok right?
            Evolution is a religious belief, it disproves itself with it’s total lack of any proof. Your lack of any substantive rebuttal is evidence of that.

          • Nogods

            Please cite for me one peer reviewed publication in ANY respected journal that concludes that your god created anything – ever.

            Your absurd conspiracy theories and anti-science beliefs are why Christianity has lost 8% of its membership in the US in the past 7 years. Kids don’t buy into stupid. Keep up the good work. You are doing more to free the minds of the brainwashed then I could ever do!

          • Oboehner

            Perhaps I should simplify for you, there are many publication calling out the dubious “evidence” for evolutionism. Love the way you inserted “respected” in there – respected by who, other atheists? LOL, talk about a monopoly, funding and jobs dry up if the official religion isn’t followed.
            Absurd “conspiracy theories” like minor adaptations (which revert back when the need is removed like Darwin’s finches) somehow mean we all descended from ooze? The spread of evolutionism is proof kids buy into whatever brainwashing government indoctrination centers hand out. You are a perfect example, you don’t have one substantive shred to back up your religion, yet you mistakenly think other’s are buying your fairytales.

          • Nogods

            “there are many publication calling out the dubious “evidence” for evolutionism.”

            Please cite three of them.

          • Oboehner

            Got Google don’t you? Try this site for starters, you must have seen many in your trolling.
            Now why don’t YOU cite three pieces of proof for evolutionism so I can point out the assumptions and speculations.

          • Joe

            Hey Nogods and Ronald Carter, I sure have enjoyed Oboehner pummeling the two of you. Great job Oboehner, I’ve missed your insight and wit.

          • Nogods

            Your delusions are strong.

          • Oboehner

            “because you dont know how it happened…” Means you have to take it on faith.

          • gogo0

            the ultimate point is that while none of us know how life happened, one side has decided they know because of their book or stories and that is the end of it. the other side has determined they dont know and are dedicated to finding out.

            it is research that leads us to deeper understanding and then conclusions that are revised as more information is gathered.
            everything starts off as theoretical and takes careful study before it is finally realized and then improved. i dont hear you guys complaining about computers and astrophysics work using the same principles to further their science.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “the other side has determined they dont know and are dedicated to finding out”

            What, you mean we don’t all think it was the ooze and exploding dots? (that sounds like a band name….Ooze and The Exploding Dots, going on tour!)

          • Oboehner

            I find it interesting how you people take real observable, testable, repeatable science and try and lump your religion in with it. If the science behind computers and astrophysics used assumption and speculation as evolutionism does we’d all still be living in the stone age. It is painfully obvious that “researchers” don’t really want to know how life happened when they continually exclude things that don’t fit their religious worldview.

          • Bob Johnson

            Your view of the scientific method seems to be grounded in 19th century chemistry. Might I suggest newer works on the philosophy of science starting with Thomas Kuhn and Karl Popper.

          • Oboehner

            May I suggest instead of passing the buck or a lengthy cut and paste job, why don’t you post some proof I am wrong since you made a statement that you haven’t backed up – “Your view of the scientific method seems to be grounded in 19th century chemistry.” I could name drop or cut and paste as well, doesn’t get anyone anywhere.

          • Bob Johnson

            You keep emphasizing “repeatability” as well as “testable” in a manner that, as I said seems to, indicate a chemistry or Newtonian physics view of the physical sciences. This has certainly been an important starting point. However, many fields of study do not lend themselves to this paradigm. Even simple problems in astronomy, such as earth, sun, and moon orbits are mostly mathematics and are not repeatable. Yet we can produce accurate tide tables for the benefit of many fishermen.

            This new paradigm (philosophy of science) builds on many peoples work over the last century. Probably the most far reaching thinker is Karl Popper, who’s views on empirical falsification has radically changed scientific thinking. Thomas Kuhn, the philosophy of science, popularized the term “paradigm shift, and author of “The Structure of Scientific Revolution” helped define the notions of scientific truth.

            Those people who supported the Steady State model of the universe mocked the new theory calling it the Big Bang. Today you mock this work by calling it “exploding dots”. I have no need to “prove you wrong” nor can I convince you of anything, your mind is made up. In time one of us will look to be foolish – that by current scientific reasoning says nothing about the other person’s point of view.

          • Oboehner

            You forgot “observable”, which the orbits are.
            The new paradigm – repackaged religious belief, much like calling illegal immigrants “undocumented workers” in an effort to soften it and change the way it is viewed, doesn’t change a thing. I have studied philosophy and found it to be interesting , but not anymore than opinion and conjecture.
            Speaking of philosophy: “Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. . . . Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.” Ruse, Michael, “Saving Darwinism from the Darwinians,” National Post (May 13, 2000), p. B-3.

          • Bob Johnson

            You declare the orbits of the sun and moon are observable? Please tell me more about the orbit of the Sun. I see only the daily rising in the east and setting in the west of these two Heavenly bodies. Some people claim the fanciful notion that the Earth is spinning, something it clearly isn’t doing.

            Paradigm shifts are a little more complex than “reframing” such as calling “illegal aliens” by the name “Americans” under the assumption that other groups are called Europeans, Africans, or Asians. Just because they where born in the New World (North and South America) does not make them Americans despite what those folks below the equator think. No, a paradigm shift is like when the medical community abandoned the Four Humors in favor of our current medical practices.

            As for Professor Ruse, it is his views and writing that make both philosophy and science interesting. Only time will tell if he and the other authors of today have the staying power of Popper and Kuhn.

          • Oboehner

            “Please tell me more about the orbit of the Sun.” Seriously going there?
            United States of..

          • Nogods

            Don’t confuse the wishful thinking of religion with the evidence based conclusions of science.

          • Paige Turner

            🙂

          • Nogods

            Ahhh, I have found a “real” Christian. Is this what they taught you in church?

          • Paige Turner

            Nope

          • Nogods

            What a good Christian you are! Makin’ Jesus proud!

          • Oboehner

            You first.

          • Ronald Carter

            Nope, they take it on science.

          • Oboehner

            If they don’t know how it happened, exactly what science is that? The science of “beats me”? ROFL, you ill informed blind faith evolutionists are quite amusing.

          • Ronald Carter

            They do know how it happened.
            You don’t.
            You are a science denier. It’s that simple.

          • Oboehner

            You are a reality denier. It’s that simple.

          • Ronald Carter

            I live in the real world, sonny. You live in the world of magical gods poofing things into existence and talking donkeys and flat earth.

          • jacobvk

            I don’t know anyone who believes in “exploding dots” or that “nothing created everything”. I certainly have never seen evidence of foresight or purpose in the configuration of the universe.

            All living things are constructed from non-living organic and inorganic molecules. Life itself is an ongoing self catalyzing chemical cascade on these non-living organic and inorganic molecules. It isn’t unreasonable to posit and research a chemical origin for this chemical cascade in light of the fact that nothing we have ever seriously investigated so far has turned out to be magic.

        • Oboehner

          Now we have simpletons believing life magically appears in ooze after exploding dots.

          • Nogods

            Isn’t it interesting to contrast our sources of information: I choose to look for answers from the smartest, most educated segment of our population, who are performing the most cutting-edge research with the most sophisticated and technologically advanced tools humankind has ever created. You, on the other hand, choose to look for answers from a 1st century superstition written by bronze/Iron age nomadic sheep herders, who occupied a remote desert oasis, during the prescientific age, who spent an inordinate amount of time consumed with the measliness of sheep and goats, and who had no knowledge of such simple things as paper or the number zero.

          • Paige Turner

            I heard your little peepee makes the little boys laugh when you expose it to them.

          • Oboehner

            “from the smartest, most educated segment of our population, who are performing the most cutting-edge research with the most sophisticated and technologically advanced tools humankind has ever created” It is interesting how your opinions and embellishments are supposed to mean anything. Also interesting how attacking the Bible is somehow supposed to make the “measliness” of evolutionism true.

          • Nogods

            What evidence do you base your rejection of evolution on?

          • Oboehner

            It is ALL based on assumption and speculation, yet taught as fact completely ignoring any other explanations. Any evidence is filtered through an atheistic worldview which is exclusionary and not scientific.
            “Of course we can’t prove that there isn’t a God.” – Richard Dawkins

          • Nogods

            What a wonderfully insane conspiracy theory involving millions of people from ever country in the world.

          • Oboehner

            The old “conspiracy theory” broad brush attempt at marginalizing that which you have no answer to, very quaint yet again. Millions of people, talk about conspiracy theory.

          • Luminya

            Evolution is true. You sound ridiculous. Omg go back to school. No wonder xtians are getting their collective asses handed to them. Young people are reading these forums and you sound so uneducated.

          • Oboehner

            Evolutionism is a religion, and it is painfully obvious by the lame responses I get that I know far more about it than anyone who has responded – especially you.

          • Luminya

            “lame responses”
            It is not my job to educate you, only to point out your ignorance, which is painfully obvious. I will repeat myself, get an education, you are embarrassing yourself.

          • Oboehner

            Empty words, repeat them all you like – it is you who looks the fool, easily sucked into a religion with no clue.

          • Ronald Carter

            Correct, simpletons WOULD believe that. People of science certainly don’t.

          • Oboehner

            “In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity. Only after this point began to expand in a “Big Bang” did the universe officially begin.” – Richard Dawkins Foundation.
            Richard Dawkins is a simpleton according to Ronald Carter the super genius.

          • Ronald Carter

            I looked and looked for the words “exploding dot” but saw them nowhere. Lying for Jesus is still lying.

          • Oboehner

            “Big Bang” Exploding “single infinitely dense point” dot. Perhaps I could break out the crayons and stick figures.

          • Ronald Carter

            Dot does not mean point (in this sense).
            Expanding does not mean exploding.
            Afraid crayons won’t even help you with this one.

          • Bob Johnson

            When you only owns two books, the second one is “The Art of Quote Mining”.

          • Oboehner

            Bang means exploding.

          • Ronald Carter

            “Big Bang” does not. It is just a title.

          • Bob Johnson

            And it was a derisive title given by the steady state universe folks.

          • Oboehner

            More mis-labeling?

          • jacobvk

            I don’t know anyone who believes this. Is it anything like Adam being created from dirt? I’m not really sure what you’re attempting to describe here.

          • Oboehner

            Apparently you know nothing of evolutionism.
            From the Richard Dawkins Foundation:
            In the beginning, everything in existence is thought to have occupied a single infinitely dense point, or singularity (DOT). Only after this point began to expand in a “Big Bang” (EXPLODING) did the universe officially begin.

            “The question of how life began on a molecular level has been a longstanding problem (shocker) in science. However, recent mathematical research sheds light on a possible (speculation) mechanism by which life may have (more speculation) gotten a foothold (MAGICALLY APPEARED) in the chemical soup (OOZE) that existed on the early Earth.”

          • jacobvk

            The big bang theory has nothing to do with evolution. The concept of a dot is a representation of a zero dimensional point. An abstract mathematical concept that represents the cross section of a one dimensional line at any arbitrary place along it, the dual intersecting cross sections along each axis of a two dimensional plane at any pair of places along each axis, the point of intersection of a triplet of cross sections of two dimensional planes in a three dimensional space…I could go on. The singularity was all of spacetime and everything within it condensed to something like a zero dimensional point but which actually possessed dimensions of its own on its small scale. Otherwise how could it expand? Mathematically a point could functionally represent it, much like a point is frequently used in calculations of center of gravity to simply the mathematics if the motions of objects, but the reality is that the universe before the big bang was not simply a dot.

            That extremely small and extremely dense object also did nit necessarily explode. Expansion /= explosion. The big bang was preceded by the rapid inflation of spacetime, once the container of all of the stuff in the universe expanded it only makes sense that the stuff in the container would start to disperse into space and attempt to fill its container. This was not necessarily an explosion. Spacetime itself expanded faster than the speed of light but the very dense and energetic stuff could only expand at the speed of light.

            As far as abiogenesis, the science intends to uncover a mechanism other than magic by which the organic and inorganic molecules that interact via chemistry in the life chemical cascade initially organised itself to initiate this cascade. If you have a problem with magic in your explanatory models you must, surely, reject special creation?

          • Oboehner

            The “Big Bang” or big “expansion” (neither of which ever took place) is a part of the evolutionism faith, or are you going to tell me you don’t go with Dawkins or whomever?
            “The singularity was all of spacetime and everything within it condensed to something like a zero dimensional point but which actually possessed dimensions of its own on its small scale.” Religious belief, there is no proof of this, only speculation which is little more than faith.

            “science intends to uncover” The starting point of evolution and they just can’t seem to figure it out – but it’s fact.

            The problem lies with a religious belief (evolutionism) being touted as scientific fact when it is neither. I was not the one who began the “magic” statement, merely pointed out evolutionism has it’s own “magic”.

          • jacobvk

            The paths of all of the galaxies in the universe away from a point in space is how we know the big bang happened. There’s no assumption there, it’s an observation based position. The theory of relativity tells us what to expect down to a certain density but below that we need an as yet unknown theory of physics to explain what happened before and immediately after the big bang.

            Evolutionism isn’t a real thing. I’ve never been a fan of Dawkins and Dawkins is a biologist not a cosmologist. He doesn’t do anything in any field relevant to the big bang. Evolution is also a distinct scientific field than cosmology and has nothing whatsoever to do with the big bang theory.

            As far as abiogenesis being fact, that hasn’t been established, but the chemical nature of life makes a chemical origin worth researching.

          • Oboehner

            No assumption… that would mean there was someone there to verify that right? We’ll also just ignore the planets that rotate backwards, must have happened when matter and antimatter collided and shook the space-time continuum when the Borg invaded from another dimension.
            Abiogenesis is pretty important to the whole evolutionism belief isn’t it? I’ll make a little prediction here, since even under perfect controlled conditions, scientist have continually failed to create life – it will NEVER happen. You’ll just have to keep the faith that one shred of the evolution story is accurate.

          • jacobvk

            The idea that we can’t know things we weren’t there to see directly flies in the face of forensics and science in general. We can apply logic and observed laws of mechanics and gravitation, extrapolating observed paths in reverse. In order to reject the conclusions drawn from this method one has to make more assumptions that are less reasonable than the assumption that the observed laws of nature used to calculate these trajectories that support the convergence of the galaxies 13.7 billion years ago were different in the past.

            Not to mention the uniformity of the physical laws is supported by the fact that we never observe any indication of artifacts that we should observe if things like the speed of light had changed over time. So there is actual observable evidence that these physical laws have remained unchanged, so not even that needs to be assumed.

          • Oboehner

            Forensics has time limitations, comparing that to “billions of years ago” is apples to oranges, nice try though. Assumptions are assumptions, hardly proof.

            “extrapolating observed paths in reverse” leads to more speculation flavored with some assumption, assumption that conditions remained the same throughout time. (That is if one actually believes in “billions of years”.)

          • jacobvk

            What time limitations does forensics have? The only time limitation that effects forensics are legally imposed statutes of limitations. Beyond that it all depends on how well we collect and catalog data there’s no real time limitation on when we analyze it.

      • Nogods

        Approximately one million peer reviewed publications are produced every year documenting research that is consistent with and supports evolution (Scientometrics. 2010 September 84(3); 575-603). Much of the research is conducted by god fearing religious folk. (July, 9th 2009 Pew research study.). You would think they would have an interest in disproving evolution and proving that their superstitious beliefs are true. Yet, there are ZERO peer reviewed publications supporting intelligent design/creationism/irreducible complexity or anything remotely resembling support for the idea that the universe was created by your god, with magic, about 6,000 years ago.

        • The Last Trump

          I appreciate and fully support your right and freedom to be ill-informed and mistaken.
          It’s up to each individual to ensure that they have looked into all sides of this important issue and draw their own conclusions. I did.
          The Internet is chalk full of articles detailing conclusive scientific data refuting the complete fantasy that is evolution. Anyone truly interested can check out the details here: GOOGLE.
          Good hunting truth seekers!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Speaking of which, the CEO of Target is now blaming global warming for the strange coincidence between his drop in market share and his transgender bathroom policy. Blind faith indeed!

          • Nogods

            Millions of scientists disagree you and your small club of gullible religious fanatics. But what do they know.

          • The Last Trump

            Exactly.
            (And, MILLIONS!!?? Hee, hee! Too cute! You wouldn’t happen to have their names, would you?
            No, of course not. What was I thinking. More unsubstantiated nonsensical magic. Thanks.)

          • Nogods

            You can easily look their names up. They publish research papers in science journals. Over a million every year.

            You have ONE ancient book. Written by men. Which you think is a science textbook. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

          • The Last Trump

            Yeah, I didn’t think you had any of the MILLIONS of names handy. Shocker.
            How about just 500? No?
            250 then? Maybe just 100? Surely you must know 50? Just 50 of them there verifiers of magic?
            Of course not. Just keep spewing that nonsense about MILLIONS of scientists that don’t even exist just like the rest of the wild and completely unsubstantiated claims evolutionists always make.
            You believe in magic, bud. And THAT, is a fact.
            See how facts actually work? You’re very welcome. 🙂

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            He does well with a$$ertions, not so well with evidence.

            It’s a blind faith type of religion, the New Atheism.

            But, they claim YOU are the “fundie?!?” 🙂

          • Luminya

            You also need to go back to school, you sound ignorant and uneducated. Online forum commenters are under no obligation to provide you with the reading material necessary. They have more important things to do. This is your responsibility.

          • Luminya

            It is not Nogods job to educate you. That responsibility lies squarely on your shoulders.

          • Luminya

            Why should he name them? You should go back to school, you sound so ignorant and uneducated, it is embarrassing.

      • jacobvk

        There’s evidence of design with foresight and purpose? Where? I’d love to see some.

        • The Last Trump

          Looks like you’re looking for a seeing eye dog.
          I don’t work with the blind.

          • jacobvk

            That’s ok, I didn’t really think you could provide me with anything I hadn’t already been directed to.

          • The Last Trump

            Provide you with? Not likely.
            Yeah, this is just a comment board, bud. Not a university.
            You have to do your own research like everybody else.
            If this is where you get your “facts” from then it’s not a wonder why you might be so confused.
            Good luck with your research!

          • jacobvk

            I have, I’ve researched this a lot, but no one individual can see every piece of information that’s out there, that’s one reason why we ask questions of others. Society advances through information sharing. Individually we don’t know much but collectively we do know quite a lot. You made a very specific claim about the universe appearing to have been design with foresight and purpose. This claim is not new to me and I’m already familiar with at least many, possibly most, of the arguments for this position, I am also familiar with why they fail to be convincing. What I was curious about was whether or not you were privy to an argument in support of that position that I am not already familiar with. Since we live in a social society and this is a discussion forum I thought asking might be appropriate. And then if you have some evidence or a good supporting argument you might, in the interest of discussion, provide that as an answer to my question. That’s fine if you really don’t want to, though. But I can’t evaluate evidence for a claim if you won’t provide it. Is that, maybe, why you don’t want to provide any?

          • The Last Trump

            You’re in luck! I have just the source for you.
            GOOGLE. Discover limitless links to science that completely refutes the fantasy that is evolution. It’s out there…..waiting……for YOU. Good hunting!
            Or not. Your education partner. Not my problem.
            If believing in magic helps you to sleep at night, have at it.
            Nothing wrong with getting a good night’s sleep.

          • jacobvk

            So you don’t have any specific argument that you believe to be convincing, then? Ok. That’s fine. I don’t believe in magic, personally, this would be an assumption I would make if I accepted design. The evidence so far available to us would suggest that physical effects have physical causes. There doesn’t appear to be any suggestion of design in nature, there certainly isn’t any indication of foresight or purpose. We, as a species, do like to anthropomorphize nature, though. I even catch myself doing it at times. Though when I do I never take myself seriously about it.

          • The Last Trump

            “So you don’t have any specific argument that you believe to be convincing, then?”
            ?
            Oh, for shame! Such a juvenile move as a “debate” tactic.
            And an assumption so glaringly contrary to the direction you were given.
            I expected better from somebody so evidently well educated.
            Oh well. You have your assignment should you choose to explore it more fully.
            Perhaps next time….

          • jacobvk

            It was a simple conclusion drawn from your reticence about defending your claim. It’s just been my observation that most of the time when people make claims with certainty they at least have some reasoning right at the front of their minds that they provide in defence of their claim. I know that personally I never claim anything unless I can defend it rationally when challenged. I don’t typically just tell people to google things that I have claimed. Not unless I happen to be discussing on a forum that doesn’t allow links and then I typically tell people exactly what terms to google and give them as much information as possible to direct them indirectly right to the paper I have in mind as a reference. I think telling someone else to google something related to one of my own claims is something I’ve only done here once in response to an unreasonable evidentiary requirement someone was placing on a discussion, asking specifically only for a form of evidence that isn’t typically used in the field being discussed.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Discover limitless links to science that completely refutes the fantasy that is evolution.”

            And, after you’re done with that, discover the even more limitless links to evidence FOR evolution…..not to mention rebuttals to the common anti-evolution arguments.

          • The Last Trump

            Particularly if by “evidence FOR” you naturally mean opinions, guesswork, beliefs, conjecture & really just taking things on blind faith.
            Yes, there certainly is much MORE of that, isn’t there! Links galore!
            😉

          • Ronald Carter

            He’ll probably tell you to check Google. That is his standard line lately.

          • jacobvk

            Yep, that is what he did.

    • Nogods

      There are thousands of gods. Why do you deny most of them? Are you a fool?

    • Meepestos

      Come now, not even a theologian or biblical scholar with a tertiary education would not use that Psalm as you do. 
That Psalm is merely an attempt by a biased group to point out and study the depravity of mankind based on superstition and by stereotyping people that show no respect or reverence to a god. The verse arrogantly implies that the “fool” is an impious person who has no perception of ethical or religious truth. The verse goes on to list some other characteristics of the irreligious/impious: “They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; / there is no one who does good.” Though perhaps made with good intentions, it is an obsolete, arrogant, and judgmental verse (and not unique) made during the time of Christianity in its infancy from a person or group ignorant (due to the lack of research or perhaps willfully ignorant) of the fact that during this time, a person that would reject the idea of God could have a great perception of ethical or “religious” truth and be just as moral or even more moral than a Christian, Jew, or Pagan.

    • Joe

      Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are
      corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

      Adding and subtracting to the word of God…Just like Satan.

  • Theodore Fenton

    I applaud their courageous stand in the face of hatred, bigotry, and persecution. May they and their families remain safe.

    • Nidalap

      Oh, I imagine they’ll be just fine. Don’t really see anyone going after the Reason Rally folks.
      They tend to stay on the same side of the ideological divide as the folk who WOULD go after their opponents, you see…

    • AustinRocks

      Whatever leftards do is “courageous.” Talk about drama queens. Legends in their own minds.

    • AustinRocks

      Most atheists are single males, so your reference to their “families” is a joke. They are grumps and misfits with no close emotional networks at all. Other than their hate for religion, they have nothing, so your claim that they “stand in the face of hatred and bigotry” is a hoot. Their own hatred and bigotry are what give their lives meaning.

  • JustNTyme

    Don’t ever let atheists con you with their lie that they are “reasonable” people, they are anything but. They have always been bloodthirsty fanatics from the very beginning.

    In the 1700s, the French Revolutionaries banned Christianity and instituted the Cult of Reason, and many churches, including Notre Dame in Paris, were turned into Temples of Reason. Coincidentally, when the Cult of Reason was the state religion, the Revolutionaries went about executing thousands upon thousands of French citizens in what was called the Reign of Terror. During the eleven months of the Terror, 17,000 people were executed by the guillotine (dubbed the “national razor”) and at least 25,000 more by other means of execution, including drowning. Any suspicion of being “counter-revolutionary” could lead to prison and, in most cases, execution. An entire convent of Carmelite nuns were executed because they would not renounce their vows. Priests who refused to support the Revolution faced either execution or deportation.

    Of course, the atrocities of the French Revolution were small stuff compared to what atheist governments did in the 20th century.

    Strange that people who congratulated themselves for being committed to “reason” seem to really enjoy killing. When you give atheists political power, genocide follows. They make the Inquisition look like wimps.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Which atheist at the Reason Rally wants to kill people?

      • The Last Trump

        Pick one.
        Have you not seen ANY of the footage of the godless leftist liberal, anti-Trump, and anti-conservative Americans in action?

        • Sir Osis

          What do you mean “pick one”?
          Which atheist at the Reason Rally wants to kill people? And provide proof, please.

          • The Last Trump

            What do you mean, what do I mean?

          • Sir Osis

            “Pick one”? So you are suggesting all the people at the Reason Rally want to kill people?

          • The Last Trump

            Did I?

          • Sir Osis

            Ambulance Chaser just asked which atheist at the Reason Rally wants to kill people and you said “pick one”. So yes.

          • The Last Trump

            If you say so, all knowing one.
            🙂

          • Sir Osis

            Nothing to do with being all-knowing. The words on the screen are right there.

          • Quantz

            You’re getting confused, Ambulance Chaser.

            Learn to keep your sock puppets straight, it lends credibility.

        • james blue

          So all people who are liberals, all people who are not trump supporters, all people who are not conservatives are atheists?

          • The Last Trump

            Are they?
            Who can be sure?

    • james blue

      Just to be balanced here people of faith, including Christian have executed a lot of Atheists for denying God over history.

      • AustinRocks

        Cite some hard data, liar.

        • james blue

          For real? You know nothing of executions for heresy and dissent? The inquisition?

          • AustinRocks

            Heresy and dissent are not the same as atheism, you moron.

            I’ll ask you again: Cite me some hard DATA showing Christian persecutions of atheists. You said, “Christians have executed a lot of atheists for denying God.”

            Put up or shut up.

          • james blue

            What do you think heresy and dissent includes? Doesn’t denying the existence of God meet that definition?

          • AustinRocks

            Time’s up, you failed. You got nothing.

            You can’t just redefine words to mean whatever you want. Nope, heresy and dissent are not atheism. You can’t even come up with ONE example of an atheist executed by Christians, but you claimed “lots” of atheists.

            Another religion-basher with accusations but no DATA. That’s called LYING.

            Btw, there’s loads of DATA on atheists executing Christians. If you want to play the numbers game, your side wins hands down.

          • james blue

            Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you really that ignorant of history?

    • Nogods

      Here is a list of current conflicts that are motivated by religion. These account for ALMOST EVERY SINGLE BATTLE BEING FOUGHT. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. But if you want to get a good person to do bad things, religion really helps. Religion might make you feel warm and fuzzy. But it is also getting a lot of people killed.

      1. The Arab Israeli conflict. 2. The Iraq Shia vs. Suni conflict. 3. Islamic militants vs western governments. 3. Islamic militants vs. Afghanistan. 4. Islamic militants vs. Nigeria. 5. The Syrian civil war which is overtly sectarian in nature”between Alawite shabiha militias and other Shia groups fighting largely against Sunni-dominated rebel groups”. 6. Starting in February, 2014, Christians have begun purging Muslims from parts of the war-torn Central African Republic which has started “a Muslim exodus of historic proportions.” This situation is quickly escalating into mass genocide. 7. The Lord’s Resistance Army insurgency currently operating in South Sudan, eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Central African Republic. The movement, led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the “spokesperson” of God and a spirit medium, aims to overthrow Yoweri Museveni’s Ugandan government and to establish a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition, according to its leaders. The war has resulted in widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, slavery, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers, and a number of massacres. By 2004, the LRA had abducted more than 20,000 children, while one and half million civilians had been displaced and an estimated 100,000 civilians killed. 9. The Xinjiang conflict is an ongoing separatist movement in the People’s Republic of China. The separatist movement is led by Turkic Islamist militant organizations, against the national government in Beijing. 10. The War in Darfur. Rebel groups took up arms against the Government of Sudan, which they accused of marginalizing Darfur’s non-Arab population. The government responded to attacks by arming Janjaweed militias and carrying out a campaign of ethnic cleansing against non-Arabs in Darfur. This resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. 11. The Shia insurgency in Yemen. 12. ISIS, an Islamic extremist group, is murdering Christians in accord with the Quran because they refuse to convert to Islam. 13. The Syrian conflict.

      Interestingly, most criminals are Christian. Here are the Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:

      Response Number %
      —————————- ——–
      Catholic 29267 39.164%
      Protestant 26162 35.008%
      Muslim 5435 7.273%
      American Indian 2408 3.222%
      Nation 1734 2.320%
      Rasta 1485 1.987%
      Jewish 1325 1.773%
      Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
      Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
      Moorish 1066 1.426%
      Buddhist 882 1.180%
      Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
      Adventist 621 0.831%
      Orthodox 375 0.502%
      Mormon 298 0.399%
      Scientology 190 0.254%
      Atheist 156 0.209%

    • NathanStarkGD

      And if you gave the people who performed the inquisition and crusades modern weapons just as much destruction and death would have occurred. Every group has some terrible people, they do not represent the group as a whole.

  • Sir Osis

    What exactly is a “professing atheist”?

    • The Last Trump

      A fool.

    • Quantz

      A troll who lives with his mom and has no social life at all.

  • Rick

    The atheist claims there is no God and yet can’t explain 98% of the universe. A fools paradise for only a short while.

    • Nogods

      What “god” are you talking about? You need to be a little more specific. Here is a short list of gods you could choose to worship. Tell me what ones you think are real: Angus, Belenos, Brigid, dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Jesus, Eostre, Frigg, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Thuno, Tir, Weyland, Woden, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Black Shuck, Herne, Jack in the Green, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fu.kurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac, Viracoc.ha, or Zaramama.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      An atheist does not necessarily claim there is no god.

      • Paige Turner

        My goodness, so smart.

        • Nogods

          Do you think he is a catholic priest?

        • TheKingOfRhye

          What exactly did I do to provoke that? Way to keep it classy there, buddy…..

          • Paige Turner

            Sure thing, buddy.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Feel that Christian love, eh?

          • Ronald Carter

            I reported his stuff before he edited it. Say bye bye to Paige.

    • Jeremy

      How does not having an explanation validate a religious explanation?

  • disqus_O2BUmbLecp

    1SAM.10: = 17 Then Samuel called the people together to the Lord at Mizpah, 18 and said to the children of Israel, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the hand of all kingdoms and from those who oppressed you.’ 19 But
    you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your
    adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, ‘No, set a
    king over us!’ Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans.”
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    No wonder God-forsaken USA, led by the atheists/LGBTQs-supporting liberal Blue States, has been losing the War-on-Terror since the 1960s Vietnam War.

  • WorldGoneCrazy

    “If you know that you can be a good person without believing in a god,”

    Certainly true, with one problem: “good” does not objectively exist, ontologically, on atheism. Don’t trust me – take it from a number of well-known atheists:

    “In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, or any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference… DNA neither knows nor cares. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” (Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life (1995))

    “Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either.” A-theist William Provine

    “The position of the modern evolutionist is that humans have an awareness of morality because such an awareness of biological worth. Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth. Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate when someone says, ‘Love thy neighbor as thyself,’ they think they are referring above and beyond themselves. Nevertheless, such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction, . . . and any deeper meaning is illusory.” (Michael Ruse, “Evolutionary Theory and Christian Ethics,” in The Darwinian Paradigm (London: Routledge, 1989), pp. 262-269).

    “Is there a God? No.
    What is the nature of reality? What physics says it is.
    What is the purpose of the universe? There is none.
    What is the meaning of life? Ditto.
    Why am I here? Just dumb luck.
    Is there a soul? Are you kidding?
    Is there free will? Not a chance!

    What is the difference between right/wrong, good/bad? There is no moral difference between them… So much for the meaning of history, and everything else we care about… you will have to be comfortable with a certain amount of nihilism . . . . And just in case there’s always Prozac.” — Alex P. Rosenberg

    • Nogods

      The idea of an objective moral code handed down by a god is a ridiculous idea and I have no idea why you would make it. Here is why:

      First, there are thousands of gods you could think were real, and all have competing ideas of morality. So what god should we designate as the model to establish the objective standard? As and example, your god thinks that it is morally just to murder disobedient children and people that work on the Sabbath. The gods of the Hindus find this idea sadistic. In fact, most of the 4.5 billion people that don’t think that your god is real, are opposed to most of your god’s ethics.

      ISIS also believes in a god and his objective morals. Should we follow these ethics? Because if you think that is a good idea, muslims have made it easy for us to follow their god’s ethics. They have already turned their god’s objective moral vision into written law – it is called sharia law.

      A christian version of sharia law would be no different than the muslim sharia law that exists currently. The muslim god thinks it is just wonderful to murder nonbelievers, which includes christians. But your god also believes the same thing. (Deuteronomy 13:6-9 “If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people.” Deuteronomy 17:3-5 “And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, …..and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.” 2 Chronicles 15:13 “All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.”)

      The only difference between you and ISIS however is that ISIS actually takes their religion seriously and follows that objective standard – unlike most Christians. Thankfully, most Christians moderate that objective standard with contemporary ethics. If they didn’t, Christians would be no different than Muslim extremists.

      Second, the text of the bible is inherently vague which precludes a universal interpretation and the establishment of an objective standard. The Bible is a collection of contradictory myths and folk tales, mixed in with a little history, originally written in an obscure and now dead language, translated differently over a hundred different times just in English, reinterpreted, modified and amended on numerous occasions over a period spanning at least 5,000 years. Nonetheless, the text is regarded as the written manifestation of your gods ethics. Due to its hopeless ambiguity, it is and has been subject to endless debate regarding its interpretations. (Unfortunately, your god never speaks and thus, your god does nothing to clarify the ambiguity. Oddly that is a problem all gods suffer from. Zeus and Thor never speak either. They always need people to interpret their words and speak on their behalf, just like your god.) As a consequence, there has been an endless parade of interpretations of the Bible with more than one hundred different translations of the bible producing over 40,000 different Christian denominations, each with their own unique interpretation of the Bible. The subjective determinations made as part of the unending translation and interpretation process obviously turns any objective standard into a subjective standard.

      Third, believing that a god is real and that he (or she) sets an objective standard of morality does nothing to help a believer distinguish right from wrong. As an example, most federal prisoners are Christian. Christians believe that their god is real and that he provides an objective moral standard (just as you argue). Yet, even under these misapprehensions, christians still commit the most crimes, with a crime rate that closely tracks their representation in the general population.

      Here are the Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:

      Response Number %
      —————————- ——–
      Catholic 29267 39.164%
      Protestant 26162 35.008%
      Muslim 5435 7.273%
      American Indian 2408 3.222%
      Nation 1734 2.320%
      Rasta 1485 1.987%
      Jewish 1325 1.773%
      Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
      Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
      Moorish 1066 1.426%
      Buddhist 882 1.180%
      Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
      Adventist 621 0.831%
      Orthodox 375 0.502%
      Mormon 298 0.399%
      Scientology 190 0.254%
      Atheist 156 0.209%

      Fourth, if you don’t know the difference between right and wrong before you pick up the bible, you are going to find nothing but endless celebrations of cruelty within the pages. The Christian god sanctions or commits the most sadistic crimes imaginable. These include the following: murdering everyone on earth but one family, by drowning them. Demanding the stoning to death of woman who are not virgins on their wedding night. Sanctioning genocide, ethnic cleansing, religious cleansing, and the occasional human sacrifice. Fortunately, most Christians now completely ignore most of the “moral” lessons set out in the old testament. But the new testament is not much better. If there is one thing we are certain of, it is that slavery is morally wrong. Yet, both the old and the new testaments strongly supports slavery; it is never rejected, not even by Jesus.

      Fifth, most Christians have never read the bible. Most of the world’s population has never read the bible. So our morality cannot come from a book that most people have never read.

      Sixth, your gods morality conflicts with our ideas of freedom and values protected by the Constitution. As an example, only 2.5 of the 10 commandments are actually law in the US. The only place the other 7.5 are enforced are in Muslim countries that practice sharia law – like Iraq and Afghanistan. And to think, Christians proclaim the 10 commandments as model laws to live by. Let’s just hope that theocratic fascism never takes root in this country.

      Seventh, Christians have no sense of morality as they follow a sadistic dictator but lack the cognitive skills to recognize that. You can be the most upstanding citizen on the planet, donate all your time and money to helping the sick, hungry, poor; never lie, cheat, or steal; and harbor an honest belief that the Christian god is exactly like all the other gods we commonly refer to as mythology, and Christians believe their god will burn you in hell forever. Regardless of this insane and barbaric consequence for simply exercising rational thought, christians endorse and wholeheartedly support such a barbaric and disproportionate punishment for an honest and rational belief. Unfortunately, Christians are so immersed in their doomsday cult that they fail to see this. In many ways, jesus is no different than Hitler: Hitler murdered all those that didn’t believe in him. But he took good care of his friends. And just like Hitler, Christians believe that Jesus will murder all those that don’t believe in him. And they also believe he will take care of his friends. So if you are a sane and rational person who would never follow Hitler, why would you follow Jesus? Fortunately, the Christian god is just like all the other gods that we regard as mythology. Your god is identical to all those other gods you already know are not real. You just need to add one more to your list – yours.

      • WorldGoneCrazy

        You are confusing moral epistemology with moral ontology, the subject of my post.

        And take it up with your atheist heroes, who know full well the implications of the No God Hypothesis, as well as the difference between ontology and epistemology.

        Your argument is with them. Good luck with that! 🙂

        • Nogods

          Do you think moral values are derived from the nature of Thor, or just Zeus?

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            Stop it.

            You’re embarrassing yourself, and you lack the self-awareness to even realize it.

            And you’re embarrassing me too. When I tell people I used to be an atheist, they will confuse me with the blind faith New Atheists who don’t know the difference between epistemology and ontology.

            They will think I am one of these “take down those crosses” cultists who do not realize the self-refuting nature of New Atheism evangelization.

            Your argument is with the atheists – Dawkins, Provine, Ruse, and Rosenberg. Thus far, you haven’t even constructed a good strawman against THEIR position.

          • Nogods

            If you can’t attack the argument, all you can do is attack the author. Nice work!

          • WorldGoneCrazy

            You have provided no argument to attack. You haven’t even given a decent strawman to prove your fellow atheists wrong.

            And you continue to embarrass yourself. On the plus side, you are converting many to theism tonight.

          • Sir Osis

            Not doing too well, are you? Maybe you need to bring a couple dozen toadies over from LAN to assist you?

          • Luminya

            Your feeble arguments could never convince an atheist. You are making no sense whatsoever.

          • honeymonster

            What argument?

          • Nogods

            The ones you lack the analytical skills to recognize.

          • Oboehner

            If you can’t attack the argument, all you can do is attack the author. Nice work!

          • Nogods

            Hay, that’s my line!

          • Luminya

            Omg Nogods where do you find these guys? They are just hopeless. This one is saying that he thinks he has converted people to theism with his arguments, that is just hilarious!

          • TommyNIK

            “And you’re embarrassing me too.”

            No….you don’t need any help doing that.

            Your failure is that you base your world view on a supernatural creator-god, then make “intellectual” pronouncements and use jargon to try to prove your intellect.

            Try as you might, you can’t justify belief in the supernatural. It defies logic, reason, and critical thinking.

            I know many otherwise intelligent people who believe in god. They can compartmentalize their thinking in a way that I must admit I truly don’t understand.

          • Luminya

            “Stop it.

            You’re embarrassing yourself, and you lack the self-awareness to even realize it.”

            Hahaha!! Nogods is the one who is wiping the floor with you. You are the one that is making no sense.

        • Ronald Carter

          “you are confusing moral epistemology with moral ontology, the subject of my post.”

          No he isn’t. Explain how you think he is.

          • acontraryview

            Good luck with that. He likes to make these grand pronouncements using words that he thinks make him look smart, but he doesn’t really understand them and is unable to explain anything beyond the surface. I’ve tried. He is completely inept.

          • Ronald Carter

            Oh I know. Him and Trump. Just impossible. But the smug factor for both of them is very high. And they keep it high on purpose to annoy people more.

        • Sir Osis

          That’s William Lane Craig’s horse crap. It is discussed here, which is
          where you got it from. If you weren’t the asker of the question itself,
          which you probably were:

          http://www.reasonablefaith. org/keeping-moral-epistemology-and-moral-ontology-distinct

          Anyway, why don’t you prove to us that you know the difference?

    • Ronald Carter

      I was going to respond, but Nogods said it so well that I’m sure you’re writing a retraction even as we speak.

      • Joe

        C. S. Lewis was once an atheist who thought evil disproved God.
        He later realized he was stealing from God in order to argue against Him.
        He wrote, “[As an atheist] my argument against God was that the
        universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea
        of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he
        has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing
        this universe with when I called it unjust?”
        Stealing from God is what atheists tend to do when they complain
        about evil done in God’s name. Richard Dawkins is correct that
        religious people have done evil things, but his atheism affords him
        no objective standard by which to judge anything as good or evil.
        So he steals goodness from God while claiming He doesn’t exist.
        Dawkins has to sit in God’s lap to slap His face.

        So evil can’t exist unless good exists. But good can’t exist unless God
        exists. In other words, there can be no objective evil unless there is
        objective good, and there can be no objective good unless God exists. If
        evil is real—and we all know it is—then God exists.

        • Ronald Carter

          God is not a requirement for us to know the difference between good and evil. We learn those things from our parents. We treat others the way we wish to be treated and we do not force our will on others. See? No God necessary.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            I’m surprised no one came with the comment “and where did your parent’s get it from?” I had that a few times.

          • Ronald Carter

            It’s one of the most ridiculous things that gets trotted out, this idea that you can’t be a decent or moral person without God.

        • TommyNIK

          “If evil is real—and we all know it is—then God exists.”

          That’s about the silliest thing I’ve read today. Of course. I’ve rarely seen a Lewis quote that didn’t make me snicker or cringe.

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      So, because of a few all Atheists are bad? Painting all Atheists with the same broad brush I see?

      • TommyNIK

        There’s nothing inherently “bad” about any of those quotes he used nor the people who made them. Actually, the ALL make complete sense to anyone using logic and reason.

        He’s merely trying to make some point about nihilism I think. That’s a classic theistic response to the atheist.

        Here’s my favorite quote about a so-called “meaning of life” by Dan Barker a former evangelical Christian who wrote the book “The Life Driven Purpose”….

        “There is NO meaning OF life. There IS meaning IN life.”

        That’s quite clear to me. I’m an atheist. I look forward to each and every day I’m alive, and I know I’m lucky to be so….also lucky to have been born considering the billions upon billions of those who will NEVER know life.

        Sorry, but your god is far to small for my mind.

  • James Leno

    Christianity is not being threatened by atheism. Nor is it being threatened by moral decay, or lack of faith, or LGBT rights, or anything else like that.

    The reason people are leaving religion is because of mass communication. The Internet.

    Religions once benefited from being geographically and technologically isolated, but no more. Gone are the days when the whole town attended church, and shut up for 1-2 hours to listen to the preacher. There is no more one way communication from the church to the congregation. The congregation can talk back. They can talk to each other. They can talk about something else.

    And not only that. They can talk to people of different denominations, different faiths, different philosophies. They can compare notes. And they can find out what works better for them. The good ideas will spread. And the bad ideas will whither. This has spawned a new saying: “The internet is where religions come to die.”

    So don’t blame the atheists, or the gays, or the muslims, or the abortionists, or any other person your faith tells you to blame. Blame the PC that you are using right now. If you want to preserve your faith, unplug it.

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      And they aren’t getting new people also. Who wants to be part of a religion who tells you how to live your life, who decides what is sin? Every time I read some hatefull comments from so called “loving Christians” I’m glad I left all that.

    • Reason2012

      False. The more you teach kids the lies at as young an age as possible that

      – marriage is not a man and a woman,
      – that feelings trump genetics,
      – that your ancestors were apes, and before that reptiles, and before that amphibians, and before that fish,
      – that nothing can create something
      – that you’re just a meaningless animal, and so on,

      calling those lies science, the more people will turn away from faith in God.

      And those atheist activists in washing for the rally don’t need a computer to do this – your claim that the internet is the only problem is simply silly.

      As usual, anti-Christian perversion activists try to disarm Americans into thinking what’s really going on is harmless while the rights of others continue to be trampled on and perversion indoctrination gets worse.

      “Beginning in the 2017-2018 school year, Washington state will teach elementary school students about “gender identity” and “gender expression.””

      It’s the schools being run by atheist perversion activists that’s the biggest problem.

      The anti-Christian atheistic perverted indoctrination is in high gear while others try to pretend “nothing to see here – no harm whatsoever” to disarm people into inaction until it’s too late.

      God’s truth and born again believers in God will never go away – this world will end first. And when we face God, that’s when people will realize in dismay how they allowed themselves to be horribly deceived.

      Luke 12:1-5 “In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he [Jesus] began to say unto his disciples first of all,
      ‘Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.
      And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.'”

      • TommyNIK

        You are delusional and obviously a Christian radical…a member of the Religious Right.

        Know that millions of people like me and several organizations will continue to oppose you…in the courts and on the streets.

        You, along with the lies and nonsense you purvey, will NOT be permitted to turn this country into some dystopian form of soft theocracy.

        Just so you know.

      • Jalapeno

        Boy, it’s like you’re continually trying to show off exactly how *little* you understand about other peoples views.

      • TommyNIK

        “The more you teach kids the lies at as young an age as possible that…”

        Yes. It’s called INDOCTRINATION and the religious virtually INVENTED the procedure.

      • James Leno

        Yet and still, there are many other people telling their stories, not just on the internet but through other forms of mass communication. And those people are telling their stories and living happily…

        – in same sex marriages
        – as transgendered men/women
        – embracing science in their lives and work
        – studying and advancing the science of cosmology
        – studying and advancing the fields of biology, medicine, sociology, etc.

        Whether you call it a lie or not, whether it fits your faith or not, others will hear their stories. And others will see a part of themselves in those stories. And others will see a level of acceptance that your religion cannot (or will not) offer them.

        When christianity (or any religion) supplies all of the information, it’s hard to disagree with it. Now that there are literally millions of different information sources, accessible from all across the world, the church no longer has a monopoly on people’s information access.

        The “devil”, to a modern-day christian, is access to modern-day information.

        • Reason2012

          Yes, Satan’s very first attack on the truth of God “Hath God really said …”

          Of course others will see themselves in lies passed off as God’s truth – God made it clear 2000 years ago this would hyappen:

          2 Timothy 4:3-4 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

          It doesn’t change the fact about how God’s judgment when they face Him will turn out.

          All the information is readily available in the Bible – even churches have tried to cover it up.

          2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

          And it doesn’t matter how much mankind tries to say otherwise – it will not change God’s truth nor how He will judge such matters.

          And making up lies about what God says about sin, like “God is ok with homosexuality now” is not “modern day information” – it’s “modern day lies”.

          And when people are cast into_hell for believing such lies, they’ll realize those who truly cared were those who risked their hatred to tell them the truth. They’ll also realize those who were most evil were those who actually spend time convincing people of the lie that God is ok with such things – and those people will answer for those they deceived.

          That the suicide rate is so high among those lifestyles betrays your claim that they are living happily.

          Many have overcome such things and found a peace that transcends all understanding in Christ.

          John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”

          “Salvation” to a modern-day theist is believing the lie they can sin all they want because “God doesn’t care any more if you sin and refuse to repent”.

          • James Leno

            The suicide rate is (or, was) high among LGBT people because of the efforts that churches made in convincing them that they were sinful, and needed correction, reparative therapy, etc. Add to that the ostracizing, bullying, social shaming, and violence targeted against them, and the suicide rate was more understandable.

            If many have found happiness being christians as you say, that’s perfectly fine with me. But I also know for a fact that many, many more LGBT people have found happiness, in their own communities, away from the church and its contuinuous efforts to “correct” them. When you check THEIR suicide rate, I’m sure you’ll be surprised.

            And that is precisely my point. Many other people in many other groups are able to find much better lives away from religion. The only thing they need to do is find it. Just twenty years ago, they would have had to settle for whatever their church, community, or family threw at them. Today, when a better, less stressful life is just a google search away, it’s easy to see why people are leaving.

          • Reason2012

            No, blaming churches doesn’t make it so. And even after they go through with the castration process, the suicide rate is no better – they need HELP not people telling them it’s normal.

            When a thin person believes they are fat, that’s called mental dysfunction. When a man thinks he’s a woman, that’s an even greater mental dysfunction. Such people need help not enabling. Would you tell the thin woman to keep up dieting so she can lose more weight – if you did that would be mean of you. And so it goes telling those who think they’re the opposite gender to keep it up as if nothing’s wrong.

            // But I also know for a fact that many, many more LGBT people have found happiness, in their own communities, away from the church and its contuinuous efforts to “correct” them. //
            The suicide statistics says otherwise.

            // Many other people in many other groups are able to find much better lives away from religion. //
            Religion is not what brings peace – it’s being a born again believer in God with the indwelling Holy Spirit. A relationship with God through Christ, not following a set of rules of any church.

            // Today, when a better, less stressful life is just a google search away, it’s easy to see why people are leaving. //
            Would that include women who are thin but deny that biological fact and think they are fat and must continue to diet? A google search to find others to tell her it’s normal and keep dieting to lose that non-existent fat is “better, less stressful life”?

            No, learning the truth by getting help, which includes learning the truth of God, having a change of mind about sin of this world and instead turning back towards God.

            Not telling people the lie that everything’s fine and lead them off a cliff of such self-destructive behavior.

            It’s easy to see why more and more are turning away from homosexuality and other behaviors and finding Christ.

          • James Leno

            When a thin person believes they are fat, they are not thrown out by their parents, beaten up by their peers, or condemned by their church. When a thin person thinks they are fat, their problem is not compounded by the people that they depend on for support. And yet, anorexia is a verified mental illness. Homosexuality is not.

            The concentration of LGBT suicides in gay reparative therapy centers (funded and run by christian churches) are what got those centers banned across the country. Trying to change people, both inside and outside of those centers, is what caused the suicide problem. Accepting them for who they are was the solution to the problem.

            One method, leading away from the church, leads to a like-minded community, an experienced support system, and greater happiness for the individual. The other method, supported by christian churches, leads to mental disorders, self-destructive behavior, and suicides.

            Look at your statistics again. More and more people are NOT turning to the church. Because more and more people are being damaged by it.

          • Reason2012

            // When a thin person believes they are fat, they are not thrown out by their parents, beaten up by their peers, or condemned by their church. When a thin person thinks they are fat, their problem is not compounded by the people that they depend on for support. And yet, anorexia is a verified mental illness. Homosexuality is not. //
            Yet you completely ignore the FACT that such a person needs help.
            You are doing the equivalent of “there’s nothing wrong with you – find others who also are thin but think they are fat and you’ll all be happy dieting together from all those mean bigots and you’ll stop killing yourselves” – and yet meanwhile the suicides continue while lying about them stopping.

            // The concentration of LGBT suicides in gay reparative therapy centers (funded and run by christian churches) are what got those centers banned across the country. Trying //
            And yet suicides have not changed without them, which again statistics falsify your claim.

            And adults CONTINUE to permanently turn away from homosexuality ever after decades of believing the lie they were born that way, which also falsifies your claim. Google ex-gay and be flooded with personal testimonies from those who rose above that lie.

            It would be just as mean to tell a woman who think she’s fat but is thin that she needs to accept it and keep dieting and get together with others who feel the same way – especially faced with the fact that there are those who overcome that as well.

            // to change people, both inside and outside of those centers, is what caused the suicide problem. Accepting them for who they are was the solution to the problem. //
            No, suicide rates have not changed – pretending it’s normal hasn’t fixed a thing.

            // One method, leading away from the church, leads to a like-minded community, an experienced support system, and greater happiness for the individual. //
            No, pretending nothing’s wrong and instead surrounding yourselves with others who have the same issue where none of them has any intent of helping themselves is not a “solution”.
            And again, the suicide rates prove it hasn’t solved a thing, which you continue to ignore and claim the opposite.

            One of the things that HAS worked for people is becoming a born-again believer in God.

            // More and more people are NOT turning to the church. Because more and more people are being damaged by it. //
            God has the answer, not a church.

            In the end, it’s God you’ll have to answer to for spreading such misinformation, making people believe the lie there’s NO hope from such things. They can google ex-gay and hear all about it from the growing count of people who have overcome it and are quite happy.

            Take care.

          • James Leno

            “And yet suicides have not changed without them, which again statistics falsify your claim.”
            I directly challenge this claim. I challenge you to produce any statistics regarding it.

            “And adults CONTINUE to permanently turn away from homosexuality ever after decades of believing the lie they were born that way…”
            I directly challenge this claim as well. I googled “ex-gay”, and was presented with a Wikipedia page listing an equal number of people who support the ex-gay movement and people who once supported, then left the ex-gay movement. Your google search supports my position more than yours.

            Anorexia when left unchecked leads to self-starvation and death. Homosexuality when left unchecked leads to nothing. But if you believe that it leads to hurricanes, terrorism, and financial collapse (and prominent christians have actually said those things!), you are free to believe that. But don’t expect rational thinkers to take you seriously.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        “that your ancestors were apes”

        Ancestors? We still ARE apes. Homindae aka “great apes”, to be exact.

        • Reason2012

          But aren’t our ancestors before that reptiles? So aren’t we STILL reptiles?
          But aren’t our ancestors before that amphibians? So aren’t we STILL amphibians?
          But aren’t our ancestors before that fish? So aren’t we STILL fish?
          Behold the anti-science of fish to mankind evolution.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            You were once a baby. Before that a fetus. Are you still both of those?

          • Reason2012

            // You were once a baby. Before that a fetus. Are you still both of those? //
            Comparing the lifetime of one living being to the fish to man belief of evolution only shows you really have no idea what you’re defending.
            Thank you for proving my point.
            Take care.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            And your comments show that you don’t understand what you’re attacking.

            We just evolved from one type of ape to another. Like all the other apes did.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    American atheists should all immigrate to North Korea, the atheistic nation they really belong, although the communists are better because they are not sexual pervs. Atheists only create dystopia, not allowing anyone even freedom of thought. These American kids are being naive because they’ve been spoiled by the gentle Church for the longest time and were never ruled by atheism. Christians create the finest nations everywhere. It’s the difference between light and utter darkness. “All things were made through Him(Jesus), and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” (John ch. 1)

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      Mmhmm, I’ve seen this comment before. You love to repeat yourself, don’t you? Got nothing new to say?

    • TommyNIK

      Pure delusion. It appears to me that you are trying to convince YOURSELF.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        American atheists are evil because they attack the Christians who created America. Atheists go against the Creator God and also against His people. It’s not reason but a sheer disrespect of parents and heinous evil ingratitude. (Psalm ch. 14)

        • Jolanda Tiellemans

          American atheists should all immigrate to North Korea, the atheistic nation they really belong,
          Atheists only create dystopia, not allowing anyone even freedom of thought.

          Your comment. Uhm, who is attacking who?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Those are facts. Even the Russians grew out of atheism some 1/4 century ago after suffering decades of atheism’s atrocities. Why do Americans attack the Christians on the American soil if they have not become evil? Atheism massacred believers everywhere they ruled; you guys should decry for human rights and freedom in atheistic nations instead of bullying the gentle Christians in your homeland. America’s top problem is absense of morality that comes from the hatred against Christianity. You guys are insane to hate such good religion and such good people.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            You call it facts, I call it attacking others who don’t think like you do. I don’t hate any religion, I have a lot of friends who are from different religions, I hate’ what some people use that religion for. Some Christians use their religion to attack other people, to enforce laws that takes away the rights of certain people (LGBT people for example), just look at the bathroom bill. ISIS use their religion to attack innocent people. In the past wars where fought in the name of religion. And attacking all Atheist, I mean painting all of them with the same broad brush? Something some Christians are very good at too. I don’t hate any Christian, but attack me, my believe or my friends, sorry all bets are off.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Not true. The Western atheists single out Christians because Christrianity is the easiest target for bullying. You can’t attack the colored anymore so you attack your own ancestors because they were Christian. You guys are well-fed and bored and spoiled. The Western society needs Christian domination for morality and decency to survive. In today’s West, separation of church and state means separation of morality and men. Secularism has only death(abortion, suicide) and immorality(forcing of endorsement of sexual sins) as the core value. Letting men into woman’s washroom endanger women and children. Men often rape women in washrooms. Europe(therefore America, too) was spared from things like ISIS because of Christianity.

            No one can stop you engaging in sexual immorality, but stop forcing moral people to treat sins as a normality. The Holy Bible condemns homosexuality and transgender as sin. You need to repent of your sins to get saved. At least do not demand others to condone your sins. The Western culture demands people to condone sexual immorality and that’s what’s deadly wrong about your culture. Those stupid drinking parties and addiction to stuff and insane enetertainment weren’t evil enough for you guys. You guys are criminals in the eyes of the nations’ builders and all of your forefathers. Someone has to speak up for the normal Westerners of yesteryears and defend them against their perv descendants.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            You can’t attack the colored anymore

            What reason do I have to attack the colored?

            You guys are well-fed and bored and spoiled.

            Yeah I eat when I’m hungry. Nope not bored, got plenty of things to do. Well maybe bored right now, I’m babysitting a sick horse. My parents never spoiled me, we wanted something we had to work for it.

            The Western society needs Christian domination for morality and decency to survive. In today’s West, separation of church and state means separation of morality and men.

            Naah, I’m surviving just fine. Have a great life, even without your God.

            Men often rape women in washrooms

            How often, how many? I searched for it and the only thing I could find was that guy who spied on those women in the dressing room, I think it was in Target. So maybe you have some other sources I couldn’t find? Please share.

            Europe(therefore America, too) was spared from things like ISIS because of Christianity.

            Spared? Uhm, Paris and Brussels comes to mind. So how is Europe spared?

            unlike the secularists and atheists who kill.

            Why would I kill anyone?

            No one can stop you from your own engaging in sexual immorality,

            Why do you people always think that someone who deffends LGBT people is homosexual too? I’m hetero and been celibate for the last 20 years. Yep I’m single and love it!

            Those stupid drinking parties and addiction to stuff and insane entertainment weren’t evil enough for you guys. You just have to see moral people and innocent children suffer at your hands. It’s in your blood. You guys are criminals in the eyes of the nations’ builders and to all of your forefathers.

            Seriously? Yeah of course you are, why do I even ask.

            You guys need Christian values to stay civilized.

            I’m very civil.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheists should not attack the Christians when what atheism offers is only death and perversion and despair. Christianity offers life and morality and hope. Just leave Christians alone. People have rights to morality and must oppose godlessness(blasphemies) and massacre(abortion) and sexual depravity( homosexuality, transgender, etc.) by God’s Word and free will. Enough of abuses on earth from the perv Western rich and their blind followers.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            So you actually have no answers to my questions? Well that comes as a surprise, not! Instead of actually discussing what I just said and asked, you come again with the same argument you have been posting all the time. It’s getting a little old and boring.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            What are your questions? List them up without quoting my comments, if you are sincere.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            What reason do I have to attack colored people?

            You wrote man often rape women in washrooms. So I asked, how often, how many? Because the only thing I can find is that perv who spied on those women in the chansing rooms at Target. So do you have find a source that confirms what you stated?

            And do tell me how Europe was spared from ISIS? Seen the news Paris and Brussels?

            I almost forgot. Why would I kill anyone? Cause you claim atheists do. Oh and they aren’t humane also? Painting every atheist with the same broad brush, I see.

            Someone said to me I have to much pride. Now I see people like you have too much pride. Thinking they are better then anyone else and don’t say you are not, cause reading your comments yes you are. I’m sorry you grew up in a country ruled by atheists but don’t blame others for it. We are not all the same.

            I asked these questions because I want to know what makes you think this way? Not everyone hates Christians, they just don’t agree with your views, just like you not always agree with their views.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            1) The Westerners used to have racism against the colored people. Now their attack targets are Biblical Christians. Secular Westerners learned NOTHING from history. Don’t plan future apologies; stop forcing your mentally-ill depravity now. You guys are so out of control just because you have had everything for decades and decades. The Church educated you and fed you at that. Every human has rights to the truth and sane morality. Feel sorry for your normal Christian ancestors.

            2) Christian Europe repelled the pagan invaders and kept themselves from illiterate barbarisms. Secular West is too feminized to do what is right for all men. Your society needs Christian values. Godless secularism brings despair to children and to immigrants.

            3) Atheists kill the unwanted children in wombs with no exception. If the atheists happen to be ruling comminists, they also kill the believers and anyone who does not comply.

            4) The problem is secular West’s push of immorality upon the Earthlings. Stop it if you are really sorry for your civilization’s atrocities. Enough of the West’s ordering around. Christian West had wonderful things to copy and wonderful Christian missionaries. Perv Western culture only destroys children’s welfare the most.

            5) Secular Westerners do hate Christianity because they cling to immorality. You single it out as majority’s religion and slander your own parents and forefathers and ancestors. You guys should be thankful if Christians tell you to stop blasphemies and infanticide and suicide and immorality. Every culture seeks the good; only the Post-christian culture is insane enough to live for sexual depravity. Please wake up. Read the Holy Bible.

            6) At this rate, the Western nations will prohibit the Holy Bible in a Nazi manner. Please stop being so bored. Everything excellent about the West is solely Christianity. Never forget that. Man is no good without truth and conscience.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            And there it is again, pride. Saying that there is no one better then a Christian. That the west need Christianity to survive. And again with painting every atheist with the same broad brush. Sorry for the things that happened to you that makes you so hatefull towards people you don’t even know. But as long as you are that hatefull it’s no use to try to convince you that not all atheists are like that. I hope that one day that hate wil leave your heart because it’s not healthy.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Christians are good and the safest species. Christianity is the West’s conscience therefore of the world’s and what made the West excel and become great. The knowledge of the one true living God through Jesus Christ makes all the difference. Atheists massacred my countrymen and they blaspheme hellishly and kill unwanted children in wombs everywhere. Regarding what they have done to my people I forgave them and do not wish vengeance but rather pray for their salvation and their highest good unconditionally because I’m Christian, but their evil must be addressed. You need the Gospel of Jesus Christ to get saved.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Well reading your comments you still hate atheists. And again with the pride. And again painting all atheists with the same broad brush. Blaming all atheists for what some are doing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You atheists are the same. Today’s godless USA is the proof. They plan manual control of world’s population by killing all unwanted humans. May God forbid such evil. You need repentance and the faith in Jesus for salvation. Atheism just has nothingness and despair and hatred against Christianity. If you left Christians alone, I’d have believed your neutrality. No, you can never leave the life-giving Christians alone because you desire to continue the evil autonomy; admitting your own sin is a highway to your salvation. Please take the Word of Life. I pray for your repentance and salvation. (Psalms ch.14, John ch. 3)

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            “They plan manual control of world’s population by killing unwanted people” Tinfoil hat tight enough for you? Talking about a conspiracy theory.

            And again, I don’t hate Christianity, some of my family are Christians, my best friend is a Christian. But I know no matter what I say, you won’t believe it. So goodbye.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Atheistic China has been doing it, and atheism is the only reason godless West is pushing legal suicide. It has to be young and powerful and pretty and able and rich to be granted life. The rich are experimenting on live humans to have their filthy longer life on earth. Departure from the Holy Bible always leads to belittling of human life; there is no exception. If your Christian family members and friends support homosexuality or transgenderism, they are not Christian but some types of humanists who deny the existence of sins. Read Revelation ch. 2 and 3 to discover about true Christian-ness. Reading the Holy Bible is the most important thing for you because people have copies of the Holy Bible and literacy in Europe.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Whatever woman. You know what, you stay in your little worls where according to you the only good people are Christians and the rest is trash. Dream on about a world where there is only Christianity, it will never happen. I will stay in the real world where lukely not all Christians are as hatefull towards people they don’t know, or have never met, like you are. We are not all the same, but you have too much hate in your heart to even see that. And please if you got nothing else to say then the things you keep repeating, don’t bother answering. Cause I’ve got enough of your hatefull words towards me, you don’t even know me.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I used to respect Westerners a lot, Europeans or Americans; then I saw you insulting the Christianity and turning into Sodomites and forcing depravity on other Earthlings. What went wrong with you? What complaint do you have other than not-being able to bully the gentle Christians more in your land? You guys are insane apart from Christian morality because you have no other moral standard and no other conscience. Your ancient Greek porns are downright despicable. Stop insulting your own Christian forefathers. Racist Westerners are far better than perv Westerners for the world. Telling the truth is a form of love. Return to God in repentance. Don’t live out your depravity. You need Jesus to get saved. Atheism is only death and despair. Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life. (John ch. 13-17)

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            Give it up already.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You Westerners have nothing decent apart from Christianity. If you have anything good, it’s solely from Christianity and from the Holy Bible. Apart from Christianity, you only have blasphemy, mentally-ill sexual perversion, desire to kill unwanted humans, and inclination to suicide as your core value. Stop bullying the mankind with your filthy Sodomic culture; the world has rights to life. Enough of exploitation from the secular West; you guys ruined the planet with pollution and immorality. Take responsibility. At least stop bullying the Christians in your land; I asked of you nothing else. Repent and return to God while you can in order to obtain life.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            *facepalm* Seriously. You really don’t know when to quit do you? No matter how many times you preach to me, it has no affect on me. So have a good life and goodbye.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Why have you been in a Christian news site, then? Read your first comment to remember why our discussion has started. No matter what you call us, we can’t submit to the atheistic Western pervs this century. Enough of your bullying and atrocities. You need to hear the life-giving truth from the Christian Church whether you like it or not, as always. Good-bye.

          • TommyNIK

            You need …

            Professional help, then some lessons in world and US history. Someone has truly brainwashed you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s secular Westerners are too ignorant of their own history. It’s obvious man without morality or a conscience is bad; Christianity has been your sole conscience and moral standard. Wake up. You have nothing worthy apart from Christianity; you only have death and depraved immorality as your core value, apart from Christianity. Secularism corrupts humanity. People need salvation and good life and fairness and morality that Christianity brings. Read the Holy Bible and repent of your blasphemy. Stop bullying the Christians in the land of America. American Christian forefathers taught mankind not to submit to villains and bullies but fight back against evil. (Proverbs ch. 24)

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            PS: Don’t quote me when you reply. Just write your letter if you would. Number your items if you’d include my quotes.

        • TommyNIK

          “atheists are evil”

          Remember that the computer you are using was made possible by a gay atheist named Allen Turing. The OS which resides on same was developed by Bill Gates (Microsoft) or Steve Jobs (Apple). Both atheists. I wouldn’t call the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation evil.

          Well over 90% of the world’s elite scientists are either atheist to agnostic. Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie are humanitarians, not evil. Both atheists.

          I think you are being somewhat bigoted and quite narrow-minded.

          • Jolanda Tiellemans

            And she keeps saying she is not a bigot. Yeah right!

      • Jolanda Tiellemans

        Be carefull what you say, or she has your comments removed too. She did it with mine.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          I didn’t do anything. Don’t blame others for your bad comments. You guys need to be respectful to your forefathers who were Christian. The West must not become a Sodom this century because you guys got nourished by Christianity so much. Stop repaying the good with evil.

          • TommyNIK

            “You guys need to be respectful to your forefathers who were Christian.”

            If you wish to discuss the founding of this country back to and including the first colonists I’m here.

            Your move.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not American but a parasite in USA. True Americans are those who understand the Founding Fathers’ Christian dreams.

          • TommyNIK

            You are not American but a parasite in USA.”

            So you insult me? That’s OK…I can handle it. Also, in my experience it’s a typical Christian reaction when their faith is criticized and/or ridiculed.

            If the founders had “Christian dreams” they wrote a very strange document (The Constitution of the United States) to become the law of the land.

            The USCON is a SECULAR GODLESS document by design and for several very good reasons.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You must not insult the Christians because they are the true American descendants and heirs. By insulting the Christians, you are greatly disrespecting your own parents and all the hard workers who lived before you to give you an easier life on earth. Stop repaying the good with evil to the Christian Church. The creators of USA wrote Mayflower Compact and Declaration of Independence and national anthems, too. You atheists are from the outer space for mere occupation and know nothing about America’s birth or upbringing or visions. All the British colonies were established to spread the noble religion of Christrianity. You ignore God in His creation world and you ignore all the historic heroes in the Western civilization’s history. Attempts to erase off Christianity’s massive contribution in the Western civilization would be as hard as attempt to erase off the evidences of God in the natural science. Your real homeland is North Korea. You guys should admit you guys are totally horrible( Psalm ch. 14); that recognition will give you some humanity.

    • WorldGoneCrazy

      Indeed and well put, Sister Grace. Here is a satellite image of the Korean Peninsula. Light vs Darkness (just take the spaces out):

      http://earthobservatory .nasa .gov/IOTD/view.php?id=83182

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        Yes, WGC, because democracy works only with Judeo-Christian values and mimicking the Christian values. Atheists oppresses human mind; there hasn’t been exception. When man denies God, he NEVER treats humans humanely including his own life. An atheist worships himself, but he only gets despair soon or later and hurts himself. Americans don’t get it because they’ve been well protected by the Protestant Church and two oceans. American atheists are thankless descendants. The land belongs to God.

  • Gena B

    Why is it that these people consider that there is no God, yet talk about him and expend so much energy spouting against him? We know that not all people will be saved, but to see a whole bunch of those faces in one group it is sad and kinda eerie to know that Gods wrath will be a terrible thing for these people.

    • Jolanda Tiellemans

      Why is it that people who concider that evolution doesn’t exist, yet talk about it and expend so much energy spouting against it?

    • TommyNIK

      “Gods [sic] wrath will be a terrible thing for these people.”

      That’s quite a claim/threat.

      Can you prove it? Even just a tiny bit of evidence?

    • TheKingOfRhye

      A god that would subject me to his “wrath”, just because I didn’t believe in him, without any thought to what kind of a life I led or what good I did, is not a being I would consider worthy of worship.

  • Reason2012

    And now you can see that they are trying to enforce their “nothing did it” belief system on America. So much for their claim that they want to keep belief systems out of politics.

    • TommyNIK

      You obviously know little about non-belief. Your comment is ironic to say the least not to mention a giant straw man.

      • Reason2012

        You mean you believe something did it? So you DO believe in a higher power? Guess you don’t know what atheist means.
        If not, then it must be “nothing did it”.
        Which is it? Please clarify.

        • Ronald Carter

          Why are you forcing him to choose either “Nothing did it” or “God did it”? There are other options, and the first one you listed is a strawman anyway.

          • TommyNIK

            The “something from nothing” is indeed the favorite theist argument against non belief.

          • Reason2012

            Yet you keep avoiding the other option. You either believe a higher intelligence created life, the universe, the laws of nature, all matter and energy, or you believe nothing did it. If your choice is embarrassing, why did you choose it?

          • Ronald Carter

            First of all, no; there is no one who believes “nothing did it.” That is a strawman, and it’s dishonest of you to tell people that is their belief.

            Secondly, you have this way of taking the forces of nature and cobbling them into your personal idea of God. And then trying to tell us that this God of yours hates homosexuals and liberals. And it gets more and more ridiculous from there.

          • Reason2012

            Sure they are saying “nothing did it” – why be dishonest?

            Richard Dawkins, the “pope” of atheism, promoting “nothing did it” and “nothing can create something” (while calling nothing something):

            “Of COURSE it’s counter-intuitive that you can get something from nothing.
            Of COURSE common sense doesn’t allow you to get something from nothing.
            That’s why it’s interesting.
            It’s GOT to be interesting in order to give rise to the universe at all.
            Something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe.”

            Check it out on youtube watch?v=X_YHbda_J4Y
            What an intellectual fraud.

            // trying to tell us that this God of yours hates homosexuals and liberals //

            Where did I say that? Anyone can be saved if they finally have a change of mind about sinning and call out to God for mercy for our lifetime of sinning, believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. Just because you hear (or perhaps knowingly teach) false things about God doesn’t make them true.

          • Ronald Carter

            Dawkins says it right there – something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe. But he doesn’t say NOTHING DID IT which is what you are SAYING he is saying.

            You aren’t content with a person believing in God. A Muslim believes in God, but you say it’s the wrong one. You insist it’s the Christian God. So we say, OK, what about Catholics? And you say no, Catholics are false Christians, it’s got to be the Christian God of the Evangelical movement. And from there you go on about all these random things like homosexuality being sin. Which they aren’t.

          • Amos Moses

            “First of all, no; there is no one who believes “nothing did it.””

            Then WHAT did it ………………

          • Jalapeno

            Why do you keep repeating a question without even reading the answers?

        • TommyNIK

          “So you DO believe in a higher power?”

          If you mean a supernatural higher power, the answer is an emphatic NO.

          • Reason2012

            So you believe nothing did it .. that nothing create life, that nothing created dna, that nothing created the laws of nature, that nothing created all matter and energy. If your choice is so embarrassing that you can’t even admit it, why did you choose it? Is it because it contradicts the mantra of “reason”?

          • TommyNIK

            No. YOU are saying “something from nothing”…you persist in that strawman fallacy. Science DOES NOT say that nor do I. YOU say that your creator-god created the universe….from nothing… creation ex nihilo, as do nearly ALL religions.

            Cosmologists tell us that the universe was not created at all but is timeless…i.e eternal in time.

            “nothing created life”

            Remember that the “creation” of the universe and the creation of life of two different things. Again, no one is saying that but YOU.

          • Reason2012

            Well you run from telling us your answer.
            So again:
            What created information in DNA besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            What created the ability for that information to be decoded and acted upon besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            What created all matter and energy besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            What created the mathematically precise and predictable laws of nature besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            What created life besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            What created the universe besides “nothing did it -it just happened”?
            “nothing did it” is the answer to a great many questions by atheists – now’s your chance to prove otherwise.

            And contrary to your claims, Richard Dawkins, the “pope” of atheism, promoting “nothing did it” and “nothing can create something” (while calling nothing something):
            “Of COURSE it’s counter-intuitive that you can get something from nothing.
            Of COURSE common sense doesn’t allow you to get something from nothing.
            That’s why it’s interesting.
            It’s GOT to be interesting in order to give rise to the universe at all.
            Something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe.”

            Check it out on youtube watch?v=X_YHbda_J4Y

            What an intellectual fraud.

  • TommyNIK

    “To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”

    — Thomas Paine

    • Reason2012

      It’s “authority and reason” to claim “nothing did it”? How so?

      • Amos Moses

        It does violate the scientific principle of cause and effect …………… there is no proximal cause for the effect that can be discerned by their “theories” ………

  • Reason2012

    Is a prosthetic leg proof of an intelligent designer? Is that not PROOF? Is the information that is then followed to make more of them not proof? Of course it is. Yet we want to pretend the leg itself, which is millions of times more ingenious and complex is NOT proof of an intelligent designer, nor the information encoded in DNA on how to build it, where that information is decoded and acted upon to build more legs.

    Not to mention the entire body it’s attached to, the brain that controls it by thoughts, the lung to breath air and air to be breathed, the heart to pump blood and blood to BE pumped, eyes to see, brain to process it and act upon it, ears to hear, brain to process it and act upon it and so many, many more systems. To pretend all of that is NOT proof of an intelligent designer, but a vastly inferior plastic prosthetic limb IS, is just willful ignorance on our part.

    Please think again on these things. God offers eternal life, not just life for our brief time here. And we will face Him to be judged for our lifetime of sinning, where the consequences of those sins would be death. But Christ took that punishment for us: God in the flesh. All we have to do is willingly accept that amazing gift: repent (change our mind about sin) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to save us from the coming judgment.

    John 3:14-21 “[Jesus said] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up [on the cross]: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

    It’s between each person and God, and many false churches keep people blind to that truth by teaching the false claim it’s about works, or church attendance or cleaning up your act and so on.

    • TommyNIK

      “To pretend all of that is NOT proof of an intelligent designer, but a vastly inferior plastic prosthetic limb IS, is just willful ignorance on our part.”

      Not understanding or even TRYING to understand evolution through natural selection is willful ignorance. And your proselytizing is insulting and infantile.

      If you have the courage, read this book:

      “The Greatest Show on Earth” by Richard Dawkins. It explains evolution and also why ID is nonsense.

      • Reason2012

        Yes, I know you like to think fish to mankind type of evolution is capable of creating designs for legs that are far superior to prosthetic legs, but also designs for brains that make our most advanced computers and computer programs look like a joke, and so much more, the information on how to build more to be encoded in dna, and the ability to have this information copied, and a mechanism that can decode that information and do what it says to build more all “just happened”, but science shows no such thing.

        In fact, information alone is proof of intelligence. Please show an observation of information on how to do something and the ability for it to be decoded and followed to do it ever coming about on its own.

        Here’s what *is* science: It’s observable, repeatable, biological, scientific fact: that no matter how many generations go by over the entire existence of the human race, ALL populations of: fish remain fish, reptiles remain reptiles, birds remain birds, viruses remain viruses, amphibians remain amphibians, and so on.

        What do you have against science that you want to contradict this fact and instead claim populations of fish could ‘evolve’ over generations eventually into animals we’d clearly no longer consider fish?

        • TommyNIK

          Wow. You REALLY are clueless.

          • Joe

            Since that is your best response to Reason2012 its best if you move along now.Your attempt to convert believers to your beliefs are futile. You have nothing in common with believers and are only here to sow discourse.

            2Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what
            communion hath light with darkness?

            1Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of
            the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such
            withdraw thyself.

          • TommyNIK

            I’m not here to convert, just to sow the seeds of reason.

          • Joe

            “Atheism isn’t a belief…it’s a conclusion.”
            Come on… Do you not believe your conclusion?

            Why yes you do, hence its a belief.

          • Joe

            ….”You have nothing in common with believers “….

            You said…”Really? We are all
            human beings who have indeed found different paths through life. We all
            have ups and downs, happiness and sorrow. You overstate.”

            I’m speaking about spiritual matters. Your speaking to fleshly worldly matters.

          • TommyNIK

            As I don’t believe in ANYTHING supernatural, spirituality has little meaning for me.

            As for belief, I suggest you again look up the definition of the word. My conclusion is based upon facts, reason, and evidence….not faith which is belief WITHOUT evidence.

            See how that works?

          • Joe

            Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope:
            for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
            25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience
            wait for it.

            4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
            who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
            5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
            flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the
            Spirit.
            6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
            minded is life and peace.

            7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not
            subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
            8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

            See how this works!!!!!

          • TommyNIK

            ….and you respond with scripture from a book written by iron age men and revised hundreds of times over the centuries.

          • Joe

            And you respond with non factual errors and the same old song dance all atheist respond with. We have nothing in common. End of discussion!!!

          • TommyNIK

            Where are these “non factual errors?”

            I challenge you to find them.

          • Joe

            Just like Satan did in the garden TommyNIK, you too are questioning God’s word and His ability to preserve it through out time. Apostasy began when Satan asked Eve, “Yea hath God said?” “Eve, are you
            certain that you presently have a full recollection of what God said?”
            The author of the Scriptures is the Holy Spirit. The authors wrote by the inspiration of God.
            “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of
            earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD; thou shalt
            preserve them from this generation for ever” (Psa. 12:6,7).
            “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away” (Matt. 24:35).
            It’s all about FAITH, and you, TommyNIK have none.
            Goodbye.

          • TommyNIK

            The Genesis myth of creation is non factual. It is a fantasy…a fairy tail. Even many if not most theologians agree to this.

            Faith? I have faith i.e. trust in my family and friends as they have generally proven themselves to be trustworthy. Your supernatural creator-god? Not so much.

            Faith as you know it is defined as belief without evidence. I have never, and could never live that kind of a life. Do you realize that had you been born somewhere else you would not be a Christian and the prevailing religion in that place would be your belief system?

            You see? Logic and reason. My quote by Thomas Paine is right below. Read and learn.

          • Joe

            Here’s a quote for you, “When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken, or cease being honest”

          • TommyNIK

            I like Mr. Paine’s better actually.

            Speaking of honesty….have you ever heard of The Clergy Project? Look it up.

          • TommyNIK

            ….or he will remain willfully ignorant by way of cognitive dissonance.

            When your religion, bible, a theologian, etc. disproves ANY scientific theory, please let us know. Then travel to Europe to collect a Nobel prize. Ever wonder why a theologian has never won a Nobel prize?

            I’ll quote Prof. Dawkins then I shall waste no more time in this ocean of silliness…..

            “If evolution through natural selection is ever disproven it shall be by a scientist….not an idiot.”

          • Amos Moses

            “I’m not here to convert, just to sow the seeds of reason.”

            Hard to do that when the bag is EMPTY ……………

          • Joe

            That’s a good one!

          • jacobvk

            “only here to sow discourse.”

            I can only think he meant to say “sow discord”.

        • Bob Johnson

          Funny you should mention “advanced computers and computer programs” you might like to checkout “evolutionary computing” (They even have their own peer-reviewed journal.)

          • Reason2012

            Making up a computer program that simulates their anti-science mythological belief happening doesn’t make it true. Not sure why you seem to think it does.

          • Bob Johnson

            No. It is a concept and practice where a program changes or adapts to new situations, including writing its own code. Modeled after biological evolution, Evolutionary Computation is a form of artificial intelligence that is fast becoming a part of many complex systems requiring optimized solutions such as self-driving cars.

          • Amos Moses

            Garbage in ……………. Garbage out …………

          • Nogods

            An apt description of religion.

          • Amos Moses

            Good thing christianity is not a religion …………. but programming computers to get a result …… monumentally stupid idea …..as it is not science …………… just made up nonsense ……

          • Nogods

            You are right – Christianity is doomsday cult.

          • Amos Moses

            Not a doomsday cult …………… for those that believe ………… and if you cannot see doomsday coming right now …. outside of christianity ……… then you are not paying attention ……

          • Nogods

            You are a brainwashed member of the doomsday cult. That is why you see doomsday coming. Objectively, the world has never been in a better place in all of its history.

          • Amos Moses

            “Objectively, the world has never been in a better place in all of its history.”

            LOL! …………. Good one …………. but keep your day job ……….

          • Nogods

            A hundred years ago people lived on average about half as long as they do now. During the past 500 hundred years, a third of the population was periodically whipped out by disease or famine. Most people spent most of their time struggling to survive. Advancements in technology and medicine have improved life on every level.

            Come out of your bomb shelter and free your mind from the grips of your doomsday cult. It will be okay.

          • Amos Moses

            Do not need a “bomb shelter” ………….. have the best protection in the world ………. but you are the one enslaved ……

            None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

            A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. ~ Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

            ALDOUS HUXLEY WARNED HUMANITY: “Only a large-scale popular movement toward decentralization and self-help can arrest the present tendency toward statism. A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers.”

            youtube;com/watch?v=9PbhkML007Q – change the ; to a period.

            Also see on the youtube machine –
            Aldous Huxley UC Berkeley Speech 1962 Full Length plus Q & A Session
            1 Hour and 22 minutes but worth it …………..

          • Nogods

            Religion – opiate of the masses.

            Isn’t it weird how most Christians believe that their god listens to them and answers their prayers? For many, this is compelling evidence that their god must be real. So if your god heals them in response to prayer, why do Christians have the same life expectancy as everyone else (all other things being equal)? The simple math says that your god does nothing, and certainly isn’t healing people of anything. Do you think it is because he is fictional just like all the other gods you already know are not real?

          • Amos Moses

            He does not listen to us …………. we listen to Him …………. but i can see how you got that confused …………..

          • Nogods

            Thank you for admitting that all prayers go unanswered.

            If you talk to Jesus, you are a good Christian; if you hear Jesus talk back, you are schizophrenic. Never forget that.

          • Amos Moses

            All prayers are answered …………. sometimes …. many times …….. the answer is No ……

            “if you hear Jesus talk back, you are schizophrenic. ”

            If you want to hear Gods voice, read the Bible. If you want to hear His voice audibly, read the Bible out loud.

          • Nogods

            “All prayers are answered …………. sometimes …. many times …….. the answer is No ……”

            Your god answers prayers at the exact same rate as Zeus and my toaster.

            “if you hear Jesus talk back, you are schizophrenic. ”
            If you want to hear Gods voice, read the Bible. If you want to hear His voice audibly, read the Bible out loud.”

            Interestingly, Jesus didn’t write the bible. Isn’t it weird how gods never write books – men do. Why is it that the supposed all-powerful creators of everything, can’t write? Jesus didn’t write the bible – men did. Allah didn’t write the Quran – men did. And Zeus never wrote any of his holy books either – men did. So why can’t gods write anything without the help of men? Do you think it is because they are ALL fictional? You already know that the thousands of gods you could think were real are fictional. Yet, the evidence supporting their existence is IDENTICAL to that supporting the existence of your god. The math really isn’t that difficult. Your god doesn’t write books or talk for the exact same reasons Zeus doesn’t write books or talk don’t you think?

          • Amos Moses

            “Your god answers prayers at the exact same rate as Zeus and my toaster.”

            Where is your evidence …………. BTW …. prayer is not to change Gods mind to be in line with ours ……… it is to change ours to be in line with Him ……………..

          • Nogods

            “Where is your evidence ………….”

            Let me explain what you are missing: So if your god cures anyone of illness, the assumption is that they will continue to live a longer life then if they had not been cured by god. As an example, assume that someone with a particular illness would have died at 20, but due to your god’s intervention, lived to be 21. Now if you average all those that died earlier because god did not perform any miracles, and compared that number to all those in which god did perform miracles, the number for the group in which your god performed miracles should be larger. Unfortunately, it is not. And thus, there is no evidence god performs miracles. Got it now?

            “BTW …. prayer is not to change Gods mind to be in line with ours ……… it is to change ours to be in line with Him ……………..”

            What in the world does that even mean!? So when you have cancer and you pray to your god to heal you, you are really just trying to convince yourself that your situation is hopeless and you are destine for an early death because that is your gods plan? What?

          • Amos Moses

            ” So if your god cures anyone of illness, the assumption is that they will continue to live a longer life then if they had not been cured by god.”

            Wrong assumption……………

            “So when you have cancer and you pray to your god to heal you, you are really just trying to convince yourself that your situation is hopeless and you are destine for an early death because that is your gods plan?”

            It is not how long you live ………… it is what did you do with the time you were given. You will live longer if you follow a biblical life ……………. but God is not concerned that we all live a long life ……………. His overriding concern is that we grow in holiness ………… not necessarily growing old ……… God has all of our lives planned, from birth, to salvation (or not), to growing in holiness, to death, and what comes after ………….. our prayers should be that His will be done, not our will be done …………….

          • Nogods

            “”So if your god cures anyone of illness, the assumption is that they will continue to live a longer life then if they had not been cured by god.”
            Wrong assumption……………”

            Thank you for admitting that your god doesn’t cure anyone then – just as I said.

            “So when you have cancer and you pray to your god to heal you, you are really just trying to convince yourself that your situation is hopeless and you are destine for an early death because that is your gods plan?”
            It is not how long you live ………… it is what did you do with the time you were given. You will live longer if you follow a biblical life ……………. but God is not concerned that we all live a long life ……………. His overriding concern is that we grow in holiness ………… not necessarily growing old ……… God has all of our lives planned, from birth, to salvation (or not), to growing in holiness, to death, and what comes after ………….. our prayers should be that His will be done, not our will be done …………….”

            So you need to pray to a supposedly all-powerful god to request that he implements his plan? That is hilarious. And if your god has “all of our lives planned, from birth, to salvation (or not)…” Where exactly does free will come in? Are you just making this stuff up on the fly? Because it is obvious you haven’t thought it through.

            But is great that you know that your god doesn’t heal anyone of anything! That is a huge step that you have taken. So when all your Christian friends claim that your god healed them of an illness, are they lying, or are they just simply mistaken?

          • Nogods

            And please learn to write. This “………….” is something a high school dropout would write.

          • Amos Moses

            “Do you think it is because he is fictional just like all the other gods you already know are not real?”

            So where is your scientific experiment and data points and peer reviewed paper to support your assertion ………….. Please describe them for us ……. in detail …….. if you have any …………..

          • Nogods

            It has been almost 2,000 years since Jesus was last seen alive. Isn’t Jesus’s continued absence just further evidence that he was, at most, just a man (and quite possibly a myth), who is just still dead? We know that dead people don’t come back to life. Believing that they do is a superstitious belief that has ALWAYS been wrong. BILLIONS of Christians have believed that Jesus would return during their lifetime. And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM have gone to their graves COMPLETELY WRONG. If Jesus was just a man, shouldn’t one expect him to STILL be dead, just as the overwhelming evidence suggests? And if you don’t think that Jesus was just a man who is still dead, how many more years will have to pass by before you accept the fact that he is STILL dead and will NEVER be returning?
            Tell me what your god does that Zeus doesn’t do? Let’s start with a list comparing Zeus with Jesus.

            1. Jesus doesn’t heal people. Zeus doesn’t heal people.
            2. Jesus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people. Zeus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people.
            3. Jesus doesn’t stop priests from raping young boys. Zeus doesn’t stop priests from raping young boys.
            4. Jesus doesn’t stop anyone from having an abortion. Zeus doesn’t stop anyone from having an abortion.
            5. Jesus never defends his ethics himself but relies upon his followers to speak on his behalf. Zeus never defends his ethics himself but relies upon his followers to speak on his behalf.
            6. Jesus never makes TV appearances to clarify his book. Zeus never makes TV appearances to clarify his books.
            7. Jesus never writes anything. Zeus never writes anything.
            8. Jesus is invisible. Zeus is invisible.
            9. There is no clear and objective evidence supporting the claim that Jesus was magical. There is no clear and objective evidence supporting the claim that Zeus was magical.
            10. The existence of a magical Jesus is only documented in an ancient book. The existence of a magical Zeus is only documented in ancient books.
            11. There are a million things Jesus could do that would immediately convince everyone that he is real, but he does none of them. There are a million things Zeus could do that would immediately convince everyone that he is real, but he does none of them.
            12. Jesus doesn’t stop Christians from having their heads lopped off by Muslim extremists. Zeus doesn’t stop Christians from having their heads lopped off by Muslim extremists.
            13. Jesus doesn’t feed starving children. Zeus doesn’t feed starving children.
            14. The followers of Jesus don’t think that he does anything himself but claim that he has to “work through” people. The followers of Zeus don’t think that he does anything himself but claim that he has to “work through” people.

            So what do you think your god actually does?

          • Amos Moses

            “We know that dead people don’t come back to life.”

            That is why His resurrection was a big deal …….

            “Jesus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people. ”

            There are no good people, not one … the proper question is why do good things happen to bad people.

            So where is your scientific experiment and data points and peer reviewed paper to support your assertion ………….. Please describe them for us ……. in detail …….. if you have any …………..

          • Nogods

            “”We know that dead people don’t come back to life.”
            That is why His resurrection was a big deal …….”

            Isn’t it weird that you think Jesus rose from the dead beacause an ancient book overflowing with obviously false stories, says that it happened?

            Jesus didn’t die for anyone’s sins. That is just a 1st century superstitious belief. From purely a logical point of view, you can’t hurt an all powerful god. And you certainly can’t kill one. So the whole death/resurrection was just an elaborate theatrical performance to entertain the delusional masses. If you weren’t a brainwashed member of a doomsday cult, this would not be difficult to understand.

            Jesus was not a god; he was just a man. That is why he is STILL dead after 2,000 years. How many more thousands of years have to pass by before you accept the fact that he is STILL dead and will NEVER be returning? You never answered the question.

            So let me get this straight, god creates people and sin, and then he decides that was a big mistake, so to free the people of the sin he created, he pretends to commit suicide? How does someone actually come to believe that story is true?

            Isn’t it interesting that most of the characteristics of Jesus are either unoriginal or possibly stolen from other ancient figures. Jesus isn’t all that special in terms of resurrection. At least 6 other gods died and were resurrected prior to Jesus:

            Horus c. 3000 BCE
            Osiris c. 3000 BCE
            Attis of Phrygia c.1400 BCE
            Krishna c. 1400 BCE (possibly as early as 5771 BCE)
            Mithra of Persia c. 600 BCE
            Dionysus c. 186 BCE

            Also, the Jews had already described someone dieing for three days and returning back to life in the stone tablet Gabriel’s Revelation.

            Being born of a virgin is not unique to Jesus and was a common claim in ancient times. Miraculous births are a common element in historical literature and religious texts. Stories of miracle births often include miraculous conceptions and features such as intervention by a deity, supernatural elements, astronomical signs, hardship or in the case of some mythologies complex plots related to creation. Look up miraculous birth for further information.

            “Jesus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people. ”
            There are no good people, not one … the proper question is why do good things happen to bad people.”

            No good people? Wow, you sure have been brainwashed by your doomsday cult.

            “So where is your scientific experiment and data points and peer reviewed paper to support your assertion ………….. Please describe them for us ……. in detail …….. if you have any …………..”

            Your comment is nonsensical and evidences a complete lack of understanding how an argument is supported by evidence.

            So where is your scientific experiment and data points and peer reviewed paper to support your assertion that Jesus rose from the dead or was a god………….. Please describe them for us ……. in detail …….. if you have any ………….. Go.

          • Amos Moses

            “Isn’t it weird that you think Jesus rose from the dead beacause an ancient book overflowing with obviously false stories, says that it happened?”

            Isn’t it weird that you think sciences obviously false stories are in a book that says that it happened?

          • Nogods

            “Isn’t it weird that you think sciences obviously false stories are in a book that says that it happened?”

            What does that even mean? When did Christianity become so anti-science and the religion of stupid?

          • Amos Moses

            Most of what is passed off today as science …………… is not science ………. at best it is pseudo-science ……….. just because a scientist says something ……….. does not make it science or even true ……….. and for the most part these days ……….. much of what they say is conjecture and not provable …………

          • Nogods

            Please give me a few examples.

          • Bob Johnson

            All of this “the end is nigh” makes a strange contrast with Steven Pinker’s latest book, “The Better Angles of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined”.

          • Amos Moses

            Yeah,,,,, i will tell that to the woman pelted with eggs in California because she supported Trump …………… if i ever meet her ………….

          • ShemSilber

            Good counsel, Brother Amos. May the time be soon when believers will all be present and accounted for in the Presence of our Master Yahushua (Lord Jesus), when He will give us all new names and work to do for our Father’s Kingdom, omein.

          • Charles

            Well of course it’s better than it’s ever been? I mean a few people died in the 20th century.. Come on be reasonable?!!!

            War Deaths From The 20th Century

            1860-65: USA civil war (628,000)

            1886-1908: Belgium-Congo Free State (8 million)

            1898: USA-Spain & Philippines (220,000)

            1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000)

            1899-03: Colombian civil war (120,000)

            1899-02: Philippines vs USA (20,000)

            1900-01: Boxer rebels against Russia, Britain, France, Japan, USA against rebels (35,000)

            1901-32: Saudis vs Arabian kingdoms (?)

            1903: Ottomans vs Macedonian rebels (20,000)

            1904: Germany vs Namibia (65,000)

            1904-05: Japan vs Russia (150,000)

            1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000)

            1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)

            1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000)

            1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000)

            1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million)

            1915-20: the Ottoman empire slaughters 500,000 Assyrians

            1916-23: the Ottoman empire slaughters 350,000 Greek Pontians and 480,000 Anatolian Greeks

            1914-18: World War I (20 million)

            1916: Kyrgyz revolt against Russia (120,000)

            1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)

            1917-19: Greece vs Turkey (45,000)

            1919-21: Poland vs Soviet Union (27,000)

            1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)

            1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)

            1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (10 million)

            1932: “La Matanza” in El Salvador (30,000)

            1932-35: “Guerra del Chaco” between Bolivia and Paraguay (117.500)

            1934: Mao’s Long March (170,000)

            1936: Italy’s invasion of Ethiopia (200,000)

            1936-37: Stalin’s purges (13 million)

            1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000)

            1937-45: Japanese invasion of China (500,000)

            1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution

            1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million)

            1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000)

            1946-54: France-Vietnam war (600,000)

            1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million)

            1947: Taiwan’s uprising against the Kuomintang (30,000)

            1948-1958: Colombian civil war (250,000)

            1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000)

            1949-: Indian Muslims vs Hindus (20,000)

            1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)

            1950-53: Korean war (3 million)

            1952-59: Kenya’s Mau Mau insurrection (20,000)

            1954-62: French-Algerian war (368,000)

            1958-61: Mao’s “Great Leap Forward” (38 million)

            1960-90: South Africa vs Africa National Congress (?)

            1960-96: Guatemala’s civil war (200,000)

            1961-98: Indonesia vs West Papua/Irian (100,000)

            1961-2003: Kurds vs Iraq (180,000)

            1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo vs Portugal (10,000)

            1962-75: Angolan FNLA & MPLA vs Portugal (50,000)

            1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)

            1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir

            1965-66: Indonesian civil war (250,000)

            1966-69: Mao’s “Cultural Revolution” (11 million)

            1966-: Colombia’s civil war (31,000)

            1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000)

            1968-80: Rhodesia’s civil war (?)

            1969-: Philippines vs the communist Bagong Hukbong Bayan/ New People’s Army (40,000)

            1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000)

            1969-02: IRA – Norther Ireland’s civil war (3,000)

            1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000)

            1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000)

            1972-2014: Philippines vs Muslim separatists (Moro Islamic Liberation Front, etc) (150,000)

            1972: Burundi’s civil war (300,000)

            1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe’s civil war (30,000)

            1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)

            1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)

            1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)

            1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000)

            1975-87: civil war in Lebanon (130,000)

            1975-87: Laos’ civil war (184,000)

            1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)

            1976-83: Argentina’s military regime (20,000)

            1976-93: Mozambique’s civil war (900,000)

            1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000)

            1976-2005: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000)

            1977-92: El Salvador’s civil war (75,000)

            1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000)

            1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)

            1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (435,000)

            1980-92: Sendero Luminoso – Peru’s civil war (69,000)

            1984-: Kurds vs Turkey (35,000)

            1981-90: Nicaragua vs Contras (60,000)

            1982-90: Hissene Habre, Chad (40,000)

            1983-: Sri Lanka’s civil war (70,000)

            1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)

            1986-: Indian Kashmir’s civil war (60,000)

            1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500)

            1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000)

            1988-2004: Somalia’s civil war (550,000)

            1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000)

            1989-: Uganda vs Lord’s Resistance Army (30,000)

            1991: Gulf War – large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000)

            1991-97: Congo’s civil war (800,000)

            1991-2000: Sierra Leone’s civil war (200,000)

            1991-2009: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000)

            1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000)

            1992-96: Tajikstan’s civil war war (50,000)

            1992-96: Yugoslavian wars (260,000)

            1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000)

            1993-97: Congo Brazzaville’s civil war (100,000)

            1993-2005: Burundi’s civil war (200,000)

            1994: Rwanda’s civil war (900,000)

            1995-: Pakistani Sunnis vs Shiites (1,300)

            1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (12,000)

            1998-: Congo/Zaire’s war – Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)

            1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000)

            1999: Kosovo’s liberation war – NATO vs Serbia (2,000)

            2001-: Afghanistan’s liberation war – USA & UK vs Taliban (40,000)

            2001-: Nigeria vs Boko Haram (16,000)

            2002-: Cote d’Ivoire’s civil war (1,000)

            2003-11: Second Iraq-USA war – USA, UK and Australia vs Saddam Hussein’s regime and Shiite squads and Sunni extremists (160,000)

            2003-09: Sudan vs JEM/Darfur (300,000)

            2004-: Sudan vs SPLM & Eritrea (?)

            2004-: Yemen vs Houthis (?)

            2004-: Thailand vs Muslim separatists (3,700)

            2007-: Pakistan vs PAkistani Taliban (38,000)

            2012-: Iraq’s civil war after the withdrawal of the USA (?)

            2012-: Syria’s civil war (200,000)

            2014-: Ukraine’s civil war (4,700)

            Arab-Israeli wars

            · I (1947-49): 6,373 Israeli and 15,000 Arabs die

            · II (1956): 231 Israeli and 3,000 Egyptians die

            · III (1967): 776 Israeli and 20,000 Arabs die

            · IV (1973): 2,688 Israeli and 18,000 Arabs die

            · Intifada I (1987-92): 170 Israelis and 1,000 Palestinians

            · Intifada II (2000-03): 700 Israelis and 2,000 Palestinians

            · Israel-Hamas war (2008): 1,300 Palestinians

            Boy the world sure is a better place isn’t it..?????

          • Nogods

            What a wonderful mostly irrelevant body count you have tallied up which you apparently believe is the only metric to measure quality of life.

            You also fail to make any comparison, which was the entire point of my comment. Why don’t you compare deaths in the 20th century with deaths in the 1st century, or the 15th century, or the 18th century. You conclude that, “Boy the world sure is a better place isn’t it..?” but you COMPLETELY FAILED TO MAKE A COMPARISON TO ANY EARLIER TIME PERIOD. (Face palm goes here.)

          • Charles

            “What a wonderful mostly irrelevant body count you have tallied up which you apparently believe is the only metric to measure quality of life.”.

            Now you’re going to tell me what I believe? How clever….

            I guess showing you a time line showing you things aren’t getting better as you say as time goes on.. More have died in the 20th Century in conflicts than any other time in history.

          • Nogods

            “Now you’re going to tell me what I believe? How clever….”

            What in the world are you talking about?

            “I guess laying out a time line showing you that things aren’t getting better as time goes on didn’t help you..”

            unfortunately you didn’t do that.

            “More have died in the 20th Century in conflicts than any other time in history.”

            More people have died due to starvation, war, and illness at other times throughout history.

          • ShemSilber

            Once again, the accuser is guilty of the accusation. Yours is the “doomsday cult,” for it the world keeps going the way it is, we will wipe all life off the face of the earth, which is what your master, Azazel, the father of lies, murder, and destruction, who only comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy, and particularly to destroy the trust anyone has in the only Door to everlasting life, the Master Yahushua (Lord Jesus).

            The Master Yahushua will not force anyone to choose life, but your master is bent on pushing people to follow him into Gei-Hinnom, the Lake of Fire that was created for him and his fellow rebels, per Matthew 25:41.

            “Therefore choose life!” says the Master, but if you insist on being a doomsdayer, that’s your choice. He died and rose again for you, too, but you have the freedom to choose death instead.

            As for me and my house, we choose everlasting life in service to our Abba Yahuwah and His only-begotten Son, our Master Yahushua, omein!

          • Nogods

            What a kooky superstitious belief you have.

            Why do you think the bible is true? Because it says it is true!!! A smart person would see a problem with that. Not you.

          • ShemSilber

            Oh, but I have proven that the word is true, There are prophecies therein, for example, that have been fulfilled, and others that are in the process and ABOUT to be fulfilled. When the reality of it hits you smack in the face, my friend, you will find out that you have been in your position the stupidstitious one. May you wise up to the truth, namely, the Master Yahushua (John 14:6) and turn away from your master, Azazel, the rebel against truth, as I did some time ago, and do so in time to save your life from absolute termination, but it has to be your choice, in the Name of the Master Yahushua, omein.

          • Nogods

            Wow, you are a real nut. There are no prophecies in any holy books. The claimed prophecies have either been consistently wrong, are so general they are meaningless, or they were written decades after the actual events occurred. Here is what a real prophecy looks like: “On January 22, 2015, at 2:17p.m., Jesus will descend from the sky and will land by the right foot of the Lincoln memorial.” Unfortunately, there is nothing even remotely close to being a prophesy in your holy book.

            The only correct “prophecies” in the bible are the ones that were written after the events they claim to have prophesied had happened; they didn’t predict the future, they simply recorded the past. A perfect example of this is the book of Daniel. Daniel gets right all the “prophecies” made before 167 bce. But Daniel gets wrong all the prophecies made after that date. That in why there is almost universal agreement among biblical scholars that Daniel was written around 165 bce.

            It’s also not hard to get “prophecies” correct when you’re writing the second half of a book while holding the first half of the book in your hand. The authors of the bible held the Old Testament in their hands while they wrote the New Testament. They knew EXACTLY how all the events were supposed to end. So it wasn’t hard to make the second half of the book align with the first half of the book, especially when you are writing fiction.

            If you think scripture accurately predicts the future, tell me three things that are going to happen this week, or this month, or this year? I am sure your Christian friends have made LISTS of HUNDREDS of events that scripture says will happen over the course of the next hundred years. Show me the lists? And I bet you will NEVER find TWO lists that are the same if such lists existed because THERE ARE NO PROPHECIES IN THE BIBLE.

          • ShemSilber

            WHEN (not if) you come before the Master Yahushua on the Day of Judgment, THEN you can give Him your blither-blather. Then you will be among those in whom the prophecy is fulfilled, per Isaiah 45:23: “I have sworn by Myself, the Word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear.”

            Until then, you will no doubt follow the master whose slave you are, unless, by the Master Yahushua’s mercy, you wake up from your stupor. Your choice.

          • Nogods

            I just can’t figure out why anyone would choose to worship a god that threatens to torture you if you actually use the mind he supposedly has given you. Most people are opposed to sadistic dictators; Christians claim to have a “relationship” with one – and to love him.

            What a pathetic doomsday cult you belong to. Isn’t it interesting to think that, over the past 2,000 years, BILLIONS of Christians have believed that Jesus would return during their lifetime. And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM have gone to their graves COMPLETELY WRONG. And just as they have ALL been COMPLETELY WRONG, so will you. Jesus is STILL dead. And dead people don’t come back to life. Believing that they do is a superstitious belief that has ALWAYS been wrong. Keep pretending that your reality will somehow be different then the BILLIONS of Christians that have come before you. But know that you are just fooling yourself.

          • ShemSilber

            As I’ve said to you before, yes, there are plenty of lies out there, but the presence of all those lies does not negate truth. It still IS.

            Just hold on a minute here concerning your false charge that Yahuwah threatens us with torture. Yahuwah Almighty does not threaten to torture, but He gives an opportunity to avoid the consequences of being the devil’s slaves, which we all are until we accept the deliverance offered to us by our Master Yahushua. He gives us opportunity for everlasting life in peace and in great blessing, but it has to be our choice to accept the gift of immortality. We have to be willing to give Him the credit and the worship because He is the potter and we are the clay.

            If we turn out rebellious, as is your master Azazel, the devil, then we have CHOSEN to remain mortal and to suffer those consequences, so that, when this age is over and done with, and the elements all melt with fervent heat, then those who have chosen to remain mortal will burn away into ashes, because of their faulty choice. They will follow your cult-master into Gei-Hinnom, and then you will know who was in a cult and who chose to follow the evil one into those flames, by your own choice. Unless you come to your senses while the window of salvation is still open. Otherwise you will find out then who among us is pathetic. We will mourn over the death of those who die, because there is no pleasure in the death of the wicked. None of us would be saved but for the Master Yahushua’s sacrifice on our behalf, and you aren’t any worse a sinner than anyone else. You can be saved the same as anyone else.

            As for those who thought that the Master was coming in their lifetime, their bodies ceased to breathe, but their being, their breath, their conscious being, passed into the Presence of the Master Yahushua, and they are still waiting for His coming, which is still certain to BE, but we have neither knowledge nor control over WHEN He will be coming. They were guilty of “jumping the gun,” but they did not end up lost.

            When you come before the Master Yahushua in the Judgment Day, you will know THEN that He is more alive than you are as of right now. You will learn that you are the STUPIDSTITIOUS one (because there is nothing “super” about stupidstition), and worse than that, you will be horrified at the end you have chosen for yourself.

            Remember in the day of your visitation Psalm 111:10: “The fear of Yahuwah is the BEGINNING of wisdom! A good understanding have all those who DO His commandments.” If you don’t have that beginning, you have nothing.

            You still have time in this age to drop your foolishness and your devil-cult in favor of the Master Yahushua, but it has to be your choice, in the Name of the Master Yahushua, who is zealous to save all who come to Him, omein.

          • Nogods

            Isn’t jesus just like Hitler: Hitler murdered all those that didn’t believe in him. But he took good care of his friends. And just like Hitler, Christians believe that Jesus will murder all those that don’t believe in him. But he will take good care of his friends. So if you are a sane and rational person who would never follow Hitler, why would you follow Jesus?

          • ShemSilber

            If you hold that thought and keep it in mind until the Day of Judgment, and if you have the chutzpah to express that sentiment in the Day of Judgment, you will know that the vast difference between despots like Adof Schickelgruber and the Master Yahushua is that the Master is the one who GAVE life in the first place, for us to use properly, and if we use it improperly, it is not murder for Him to take it, but justice. Hitler was one who misused the power that was given him, and he will have his judgment rendered in the Day of Judgment.

            Your master, Azazel, the father of lies, or murder, and destruction has twisted your little mind all out of shape, for you have let yourself be the slave of one much more evil and bitter than Hitler was, though he was under the influence of Azazel, the same one we call satan the devil, the same one that Islam calls Allah.

            You have basically palmed yourself off as your own god, but a sane, rational person knows better, You are the slave of an irrational fallen malach (angel) who knew better than to rebel against his Creator, and insisted on doing it anyway. Shame on him and his fellow angels, and shame on those who so willingly serve them, in the Name of the Master Yahushua who WOULD save you also, IF IF IF you would give up your wickedness and turn to Him to be cleaned up and made whole, but it has to be your choice to do so, omein.

          • Nogods

            How did you become such a brainwashed cult member? I am really curious.

            Let’s stay focused for a moment and discuss one very particular aspect of your superstitious beliefs: the devil.

            I would like for you to do two things for each question below: 1. answer the question. And 2. state the source of information you relied on to answer the question.

            1. Where does the devil live?
            2. What does he eat?
            3. How does he travel around?
            4. Why don’t scientists study devils and their habitat?
            5. Why aren’t devils discussed in any science books?
            6. Why are devils only mentioned in fiction and books about mythology?
            7. Who do you think would know more about devils: a witch doctor from the jungles of Malaysia who has had no contact with western civilization, or the entire science faculty from MIT?
            8. How do devils reproduce?
            9. What life form have devils evolved from?
            10. Do devils get sick?
            11. How long do they live for?
            12. Do they have brains like humans?
            13. What type of circulatory system do they have?
            14. Has anyone taken a photo or video of one?
            15. What language do they speak?
            16. How do they communicate with one another?
            17. What languages do they understand?
            18. How large is the devil population?
            19. What is the life expectancy of a devil?
            20. How long do Devils care for their young?

            Now go back and change the word “devil” to “leprechaun” and answer all the same questions again. See any difference?

          • ShemSilber

            If you were asking for the purpose of dealing with the captivity you are in to Azazel and to be free from it, I would deal with your questions, but your questions are only to argue and keep going your own way. So be it! Keep going your own stupid way, because that is your choice. Yahuwah has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but if that is what you insist upon, that is your choice, unless and until you decide to change your choice. In the Name of the Master Yahushua, omein.

          • Nogods

            Isn’t it weird how YOU have to talk on your gods behalf? You god is a dead mute. All gods are. You are here pretending to know the will of your god and are speaking on his behalf. That is exactly what the followers of Zeus had to do as well. That should clue you in.

          • ShemSilber

            Never mind me. If Yahuwah were to speak directly to you, you would dirty your diaper and not have enough strength to change it.

          • Nogods

            That is the same lame excuse Muslims give for the complete absence of their invisible friend as well.

            Isn’t it odd to think that there are an infinite variety of things the christian god could do that would immediately and unequivocally convince everyone of his existence. And if he did ANY ONE OF THEM, NO ONE WOULD GO TO HELL. Yet, he chooses to not do any of them. Do you think it is because he is identical to all the other gods we now regard as mythology?

        • This style ten and six

          Nevertheless that is what has happened. You are descended from a fish.

        • jacobvk

          We are descended from fish but are, ourselves, no longer fish, but really the relevant classification level from which we come at that level are vertebrates with endoskeletons, paired sensory organs, bilateral symmetry all on a foundation of eukaryotic cells. Those are, primarily, the traits that have been passed down over all of the many generations since the first tetrapods diverged from shallow water fish all those hundreds of millions of years ago. We never lost those characteristics, but over millions of generations we have acquired numerous other specialized traits. Amniotes, placentas, endothermic regulation, binocular vision, domed skulls, opposable thumbs, bipedalism, etc. not exactly an exhaustive list, but I’m not attempting to write a book.

  • Reason2012

    While atheists run in embarrassment from their conclusion of “nothing did it”, Richard Dawkins promoting “nothing did it” and “nothing can create something” (while calling nothing something):
    “Of COURSE it’s counter-intuitive that you can get something from nothing.
    Of COURSE common sense doesn’t allow you to get something from nothing.
    That’s why it’s interesting.
    It’s GOT to be interesting in order to give rise to the universe at all.
    Something pretty mysterious had to give rise to the origin of the universe.”

    Check it out on youtube watch?v=X_YHbda_J4Y
    What an intellectual fraud.

    • TommyNIK

      Why do you fail to respond then start new threads?

      You’re being quite silly.

      • Reason2012

        So you’re going to ignore how atheists DO in fact now try to claim “nothing can create something” – in effect “nothing did it”. That’s the only thing silly here.

        • Jalapeno

          You seem a bit obsessed with your strawman.

          • Reason2012

            How is it a strawman? You mean you something created it all?

          • TommyNIK

            Uh…..what?

          • Jalapeno

            I’m saying it wasn’t necessarily created.

          • Reason2012

            So you believe it just happened to exist for an eternity and required no creator – yet another supernatural claim.

          • Jalapeno

            That’s not a supernatural claim, just one of a few theories out there for how the universe started.

            (The theory being that it’s always been and always will be.)

        • Nogods

          Where did your god come from, nothing? Can you say “special pleading” fallacy?

          • Reason2012

            In a worldview that admits the supernatural exists, then believing something was eternal and required no creator is logical.
            In the atheist worldview that denies the supernatural, believing the supernatural (as you admit) claim that something can require no creator and exist for an eternity creates a contradiction and is illogical and proves the worldview “the supernatural does not exist” is false.

          • Nogods

            “In a worldview that admits the supernatural exists, then believing something was eternal and required no creator is logical.”

            If you think the supernatural world exists (even though there is no evidence for it) there are no limits on what you can assert is “real.” Warlocks, witches that fly on brooms, spirits, leprechauns, purple fairies made of string cheese, and Darth Vader, all “exist” in a supernatural world.

            “In the atheist worldview that denies the supernatural, believing the supernatural (as you admit) claim that something can require no creator and exist for an eternity creates a contradiction and is illogical and proves the worldview “the supernatural does not exist” is false.”

            The irrationality of this word salad is shocking. The supernatural doesn’t exist because there is NO evidence it exists. It is just that simple. Tell me everything you know about this supernatural word and the source of your knowledge. Go.

  • jim6661

    Only stupid people believe in a god. Theres no nice way to say this so might as well just say it.

    • Joe

      Simmer down Toll.

    • Joe

      You are the Definition of a troll. Just a baited hook of Satan waiting for someone to strike. Pathetic minion. Did you satisfy you handlers request.

      • Nogods

        Satan isn’t real. Really.

  • jim6661

    All religion should be banned worldwide.

    • Amos Moses

      Back off man ………… i am a scientist …… i believe in nothing ……..

      Atheism is a religion ……….. and its god is Darwin ………. or Dawkins ……… or some other nutter this week ………………

  • honeymonster

    Godless politics is what we already have, hence the mess the world’s in!

    • Nogods

      You are obviously mistaken. Here is a list of current conflicts that are motivated by religion. These account for ALMOST EVERY SINGLE BATTLE BEING FOUGHT. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. But if you want to get a good person to do bad things, religion really helps. Religion might make you feel warm and fuzzy. But it is also getting a lot of people killed.

      1. The Arab Israeli conflict. 2. The Iraq Shia vs. Suni conflict. 3. Islamic militants vs western governments. 3. Islamic militants vs. Afghanistan. 4. Islamic militants vs. Nigeria. 5. The Syrian civil war which is overtly sectarian in nature”between Alawite shabiha militias and other Shia groups fighting largely against Sunni-dominated rebel groups”. 6. Starting in February, 2014, Christians have begun purging Muslims from parts of the war-torn Central African Republic which has started “a Muslim exodus of historic proportions.” This situation is quickly escalating into mass genocide. 7. The Lord’s Resistance Army insurgency currently operating in South Sudan, eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo, and Central African Republic. The movement, led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the “spokesperson” of God and a spirit medium, aims to overthrow Yoweri Museveni’s Ugandan government and to establish a theocratic state based on the Ten Commandments and Acholi tradition, according to its leaders. The war has resulted in widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, slavery, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers, and a number of massacres. By 2004, the LRA had abducted more than 20,000 children, while one and half million civilians had been displaced and an estimated 100,000 civilians killed. 9. The Xinjiang conflict is an ongoing separatist movement in the People’s Republic of China. The separatist movement is led by Turkic Islamist militant organizations, against the national government in Beijing. 10. The War in Darfur. Rebel groups took up arms against the Government of Sudan, which they accused of marginalizing Darfur’s non-Arab population. The government responded to attacks by arming Janjaweed militias and carrying out a campaign of ethnic cleansing against non-Arabs in Darfur. This resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. 11. The Shia insurgency in Yemen. 12. ISIS, an Islamic extremist group, is murdering Christians in accord with the Quran because they refuse to convert to Islam. 13. The Syrian conflict.

      • honeymonster

        Are you a theist?

        • Nogods

          Have I written anything that would suggest that I am?

          • honeymonster

            You seem to think that good people do bad things because of religion, in what way do you imagine that they are good? and if they are good, why do they do bad things, religion notwithstanding?

          • Nogods

            People are generally good. Just look at children for proof of this fact. People lean to be bad.

            People do things for reasons. And religion gives people reasons to do things. Many of the reasons religions give for doing things are poor because they were created by unsophisticated and primitive men interested in controlling others. As an example, the bible commands its followers to murder disobedient children, non believers, and people that work on the sabbath. These are all bad reasons that good people could be convinced are good things to do.

          • honeymonster

            So good people are bad people, while remaining good. And bad things are good things if the argument is convincing enough?

          • Nogods

            Good people do good things; bad people do bad things. And that assessment is updated every second of your life.

          • honeymonster

            So basically, it is nothing to do with religion, it’s just good people and bad people.

            So why would removing the word ‘God’ from politics make any difference?

          • Nogods

            What? It has everything to do with religion. Most of the world’s conflicts are rooted in religious differences. One group is doing what it thinks its god wants it to do, which conflicts with another group that is doing what it thinks its god wants it to do. Religion is the root of most evil.

          • honeymonster

            “One group is doing what it thinks…which conflicts with another group that is doing what it thinks”

            So ultimately it has to do with what people think, so unless you want to ban people from thinking conflicts will continue, with or without religion.

          • Nogods

            Is this really the way your mind works? There are good ideas and there are bad ideas. Religion is the mother of most bad ideas.

          • honeymonster

            Do you somehow imagine that religion is not itself an idea?

          • Nogods

            Of course religion is an idea. Just a very bad one.

          • honeymonster

            So man has formulated a bad idea, and pinned other bad ideas on it.

            That doesn’t seem very hopeful for man to do any better even if they started all over again. It seems to me that every bad idea is man’s, and nothing to do with God, and that if God was expunged from everyone’s knowledge bad ideas would still continue, just under a different guise.

          • Nogods

            Gods don’t have any ideas. That is why they don’t write books or talk (or do anything). They need men to do that for them. And the reason for this is obvious – gods are fictional.

          • honeymonster

            So whether politics is godless or godly is totally irrelevant? That makes me wonder why so many “atheists” keep banging on about it.

          • Nogods

            Countries that have governments that are godly are the last place you would ever want to live.

          • honeymonster

            Do you know of such a country?

          • Joe

            Gee.. I don’t know…maybe your Avatar gives it away?

          • Nogods

            You would think.

  • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

    Come! Let us reason together! Will this event include debates with Christian apologists? Or debates on the scientific merit (or lack thereof) of climate change? Will there be any reasoning at all here, or is this just another shouting match of unreasonable unreasoning people in the name of their cult of reason, Culte de la Raison, demanding the execution without trial of their enemies by guillotine?