United Methodists Elect Open Lesbian for Bishop Despite Prohibition

UMC Background-compressedSCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — Delegates at the United Methodist Western Jurisdictional Conference have voted to elect an open lesbian as bishop despite prohibitions against such appointments.

Karen Oliveto of Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco was elected on the 17th ballot after several others withdrew from the election, including one other openly homosexual candidate. According to reports, Oliveto has officiated over 50 same-sex ceremonies herself.

“I think at this moment I have a glimpse of the realm of God,” Oliveto asserted following the vote, according to United Methodist News.

“I want to thank the candidates who I have journeyed with these past few days, for the grace with which we walked with each other,” she said. “And know I stand before you because of the work and prayers of so many, especially those saints who yearned to live for this day, who blazed a trail where there was none, who are no longer with us, and yet whose shoulders I stand on.”

As previously reported, Oliveto, David Meredith and Frank Wulf were all nominated during the meetings of the Western and North Central jurisdictions last month, with their nomination being publicly announced by Reconciling Ministries, a homosexual advocacy group that professes to be Christian.

Executive Director Matt Berryman asserted that the nomination of the three was led by the Holy Spirit.

“On the heels of the 2016 General Conference, the Spirit of God is now raising up three openly gay candidates for the office of bishop,” he claimed in a blog post. “Building on the courage and work of the saints who have gone before, Dr. Karen Oliveto, Frank Wulf, and David Meredith are called by God to serve the church in sharing their gifts of visionary leadership for the life of the world.”

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However, as previously reported, the United Methodist Book of Discipline outlines that “the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching” and that “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” may not be ordained as ministers in the denomination.

“While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world,” the book reads.

In light of the prohibition, some expressed disappointment with Oliveto’s election.

“This election raises significant concerns and questions of church polity and unity,” Bishop Bruce Ough, president of the United Methodist Council of Bishops, said in a statement.

“Any elder in good standing is eligible for election as a bishop of the church. An elder under an unresolved complaint is still considered to be in good standing. Being a self-avowed, practicing homosexual is a chargeable offense for any clergyperson in The United Methodist Church, if indeed this is the case,” he explained.

Rob Renfroe of the United Methodist group Good News also issued strong remarks in light of the vote.

“It is deplorable that the Western Jurisdiction, along with many annual conferences, has ignored the Council of Bishop’s proposal, ratified by the General Conference, for a ‘pause for prayer—to step back from attempts at legislative solutions and to intentionally seek God’s will for the future,’” he said.

“Instead, these conferences have moved ahead with legislative enactments pledging non-conformity with the Book of Discipline, culminating in the election of a practicing homosexual as bishop,” Renfroe stated. “If the Western Jurisdiction wanted to push the church to the brink of schism, they could not have found a more certain way of doing so.”

Wulf withdrew from the election earlier this past week prior to Oliveto’s election.


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  • Timothy Lamb

    Openly supporting sin in your church ceases your ability to declare yourself the church of Jesus Messiah. It is that simple, call yourself the church of secular humanism, or something more in line with your mission.

    • Paramananda Devasahayam

      It cannot be called church as church is a place of worship of Christians and not such filthy lust mongers

  • Harbinger

    Because the church universally has watered-down the ideals of discipleship, we now have this to contend with. Since homosexuality is a sin like lying, stealing, hate or covetousness, it should not be tolerated in the pulpit. The problem lies where the church let things slide….divorce then remarriage. If the church allows individuals of such behavior to attend in hopes that they will change, then the church should allow the gay people sit in the pews as well. However, they cannot be allowed in positions of leadership. The same should go to those who, as a Christian, decide to divorce then remarry. If Jesus said we must hate all others compared to Him and take up our own cross and follow Him in self denial, we must obey or we cannot be His disciples.
    I’ve said before, a few days ago I came across a man who has been part of my church for 25 years and during those years he has divorced twice and is ready to do it again in October. Unfortunately he has been placed as a Christian counselor in my church. Should he be giving marriage advice? The problem is he should know better, but he doesn’t care – he’s going to do what he wants to regardless of what Christ said. For those who want to use the “sexualized immortality clause”, Jesus was excusing the act of divorce not remarriage. The “becoming one clause” trumps the “sex immortality clause” – that is to say divorce and remarriage is possible before consummation, in our time the engagement period.
    The bottom line is that our church leadership should be people Guided by the Holy Spirit not people who flaunt their sin, but as long as we play church and do what we want this occurrence will be, sadly, common place.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    The prohibition is from the Holy Bible, the Word of God. Delegates at the United Methodist Western Jurisdictional Conference got a lawlessness against God Himself. All true Christians must stay away from them. (Revelation ch.2-3) Female ordination caused sexual confusion in the world and is a true woe to the Christendom.

  • GibbyD

    “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” ( 1 Corinthians 6:14-18)KJB.

    ———-“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
    ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in
    unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 3Andchanged the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Whochanged the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the
    creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women
    did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Andlikewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in
    their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is
    unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error
    which was meet.And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Beingfilled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
    maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
    whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” ( Romans 1:18-32)KJB

  • http://HisPlaceDanville.com Stephen Anderson

    So dies the church of John Wesley.

    • Timothy Lamb

      First thing I thought when reading this.

    • Claus von Stauffenberg

      No Christian “Church” is a product of a fallible human being. God, in His wisdom, chooses “tools” whom He gives the will and strength, through the Spirit, to assert the Scriptures and the Gospel of Jesus Christ to further His Kingdom on earth.

      John 8:31-32 … So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in Him, “If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

  • Reason2012

    Listen to their deception, claiming to speak for God.
    // “I think at this moment I have a glimpse of the realm of God,” Oliveto asserted following the vote, according to United Methodist News.
    // On the heels of the 2016 General Conference, the Spirit of God is now raising up three openly gay candidates for the office of bishop

    When someone’s a false teacher, they’re not going to make it obvious. They’re going to make it look like they’re really a Christian. But they are really tares planted by the devil.

    Matthew 7/15-20 “[Jesus said] Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

    They’re going to look and talk and sound and act just like a Christian. So just because someone looks, talks, sounds, acts just like a Christian, that does not mean they are a Christian. The person may very well believe they are a Christian.

    So how do you REALLY know? How can THEY really know?

    … “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”

    If a woman is preaching when God tells us they are not to, that’s your first corrupt fruit.

    If a “pastor” says God’s ok with homosexual behavior now, that’s corrupt fruit.

    Of COURSE false teachers are going to make it sound legit.
    Of COURSE false teachers are going to make it sound like they’re Christians.
    Of COURSE false teachers are going to make it seem like they really love God and care for you.
    Of COURSE false teachers are going to make it sound like they speak for God.

    So you can’t dismiss someone being a false teacher just because they SAY they’re a Christian, ACT like a Christian, SOUND like a Christian, DRESS like a Christian, read the Bible like a Christian, go to church like a Christian, but by their fruit you will know them.

    Reading on:

    Matthew 7/21-23 … “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

    Jesus warns us right after warning us of false teachers and knowing them by their fruit that MANY will claim to be Christian and will be cast into hell.

    There will be people that make it sound like they’re Christian, make it seem like they really love God and care for you, make it sound like they speak for God, and in the end God is going to cast them into_hell.

    People need to get OUT of that church that is promoting anti-God sin and into one that preaches God’s truth and ask themselves why they allowed themselves to stay under such false teaching for so long.

    2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

    Philippians 2/12-13 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

    • lizk

      we just need to look at how God dealt with Sodom and Gomorrah!! our world is looking like that what ever evil man can think of they will do.

  • 201821208 :)

    “Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.” Matt. 7:21-23

  • 201821208 :)

    “God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women (Titus 2:3–5). The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.”

  • Emmanuel

    For all you God fearing Methodists, it’s time to walk away from your church. Find a church that still fears God, follows the Bible and calls sin a sin.

    • hytre64

      Don’t walk – RUN… Get out of the burn radius. ;-}

    • Steven James

      I have to strongly disagree. God expects us to serve him and we do not serve him by giving up to false prophets. We must stay and fight them, show the people who they really are. They were most certainly not lifted up by God. God has condemned their lifestyles as sinful in both the Old and New Testaments. People need to be reminded of that.

      • Timothy Lamb

        I don’t know, most of the old mainline churches stopped preaching the gospel yrs ago, it is question for each believer. I tend to think that believers get worn out in these fights within the church.

        • Steven James

          I have not been in a church that wasn’t preaching the gospel but that’s of no consequence. The Bible is God’s word and we are all capable of picking it up and reading it. If this isn’t worth fighting for, I don’t know what is.

          • Timothy Lamb

            I do not mean that we should not fight, I just don’t know that people need to stay in a dead church, just like the confessing church left the German state church under the leadership of devoted men of God, showing a fighting spirit against the Nazi propaganda within the church.

            As for your view on not preaching the Gospel, well I have witnessed many not preaching the death, burial and risen lord. I hope your right though, but just look at the stats on acceptance of gay marriage, fornication, abortion, Transgender within the church, its downright alarming. Peace be with you brother!

          • Steven James

            The UMC is not a dead church. The church currently opposes homosexual marriage and the ordination of homosexuals into leadership roles. What is happening here is a few local areas, notice liberal California, that are breaking away from the main body of the church in defiance. This is not going to cause the UMC to accept these practices. It will most likely result in a formally divided church with those that adhere to acceptance of these practices leaving the UMC. The UMC spans the globe and now has more members outside the US than in and these areas are not going to accept gay marriage.

          • Claus von Stauffenberg

            I believe you have explained the proper way this problem should be solved and most likely will be.

            I hope that the UMC council would take special measures to assure that the apostate UMC congregations, that maintain the UMC identification, are NOT compatible or in any way affiliated with the greater UMC denomination of churches.

          • Claus von Stauffenberg

            YOU WROTE: “…a church that wasn’t preaching the gospel but that’s of no consequence.”

            ~~~~~ It is of great consequence by virtue of Christ commanding it.

            A dedicated Bible reader would notice that the entirety of the Scriptures is based upon the salvation that is in Jesus Christ.

            If the Christian Church, of which a person is a member, does not bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ into every sermon or into its worship program and liturgy, why would that person remain in an organization that was only advancing a “social gospel”? How would that be helping faith to grow?

        • Claus von Stauffenberg

          RE. “…most of the old mainline churches stopped preaching the gospel yrs ago…”

          ~~~~~~ Therein lies the crux of the entire problem !

      • Emmanuel

        I agree with what you said, stand and fight. But, when the Shepard is not feeding them and they are not hearing the truth, who will stand up there? Will the God fearing Methodist get that opportunity? Jesus fought against the Pharisees but he was not in with them.

      • Claus von Stauffenberg

        That is exactly what Martin Luther was attempting to do within the Roman Church for a long time. Albeit, God had a differnt plan for him that would bring the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to light in the world.
        Bottom line: If returning to orthodox Christian doctrine of the Scriptures is not possilble…God calls for SEPARATION.!

  • Gemmo Boon

    Does she have a liquor license?
    #LickHerLicense

    • hytre64

      Inappropriate comment for a Christian channel, IMHO.

      • Gemmo Boon

        Christians these days are like little effing faggots…running around, hiding behind Jesus’ robe…afraid to smack the liberal base down to the ground. Grow a pair, wuss!

        • hytre64

          Already have a pair, thank you very much.

          I would rather call out inappropriate comments on a Christian DISCUS section than be a meek little coward who automatically accepts all insults thrown their way.

  • http://www.dontneednostinkinwebsite.com/ Midlandr

    The apostasy continues.

  • DLCraig

    The enormously serious aspect in this foisting of sinful error is the attribution of The Holy Spirit as the agent of the nominations. Just as the Pharisees claimed that the miracles of Jesus were worked through “the power of Beelzebub” so the apostates claim that their prideful wickedness is sanctioned by God Himself; as though it was all His idea.

    We can assume the goal is to somehow make this perversion appear to be a holy thing and therefore acceptable. Bending the Word of God to fit their desires. Nothing new here; same tired tune: We want what we want and we’ll do anything to get it including making God a coconspirator in violating His commands…

    “Hath God really said…?” Is the oldest lie in the world and still being used by His enemies to great effect.

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/fakethoughtsandprayers/ Chip01

    A great American Patriot
    “I am very proud of the role I played in getting legal equality for people who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, and in helping get rid of the prejudice by being visible about it” MA Senator. Barney Frank – a prominent gay politician in the United States.

    In 1996 Frank co-sponsored the “Federal Law Enforcement Dependents Assistance Act” (H.R.4111. Became Public Law No: 104-238.) “to provide educational assistance to the dependents of Federal law enforcement officials who are killed or disabled in the performance of their duties.”

    That’s just one of many great laws Barney Frank has done for America..

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/fakethoughtsandprayers/ Chip01

    Randy Phillips (born May 8, 1990) is an airman of the United States Air Force whose coming out as gay in September 2011 Inspired many other brave men and women who serve /served OUR country.

    Thanks for your service to our country, Randy!!

  • https://disqus.com/home/channel/fakethoughtsandprayers/ Chip01

    Oh.. You got to love Harvey. He just said it, like it was..

    “It takes no compromise to give people their rights…it takes no money to respect the individual. It takes no political deal to give people freedom. It takes no survey to remove repression.”
    -HARVEY MILK

    Remember how Harvey died

  • peanut butter

    If I was a Methodist, I would be running from my denomination at this point in time. The church has brought curses on itself with this move. Not to mention divesting from Israeli banks with their pension funds.

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      Yes, tolerance, equality and empathy are not values to many Christians. That’s a shame.

      • peanut butter

        Not when it goes against God’s Word.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Do you believe that Christians should work through the government to change the lifestyle of others by making laws against behaviors you don’t like and consider to be sin? Why not live and let live and just believe your god will deal with them when they die?

          • Timothy Lamb

            You must have missed the new testament in your daily reading. We are not called to be spiritual wimps, but ministers of reconcilation, bringing God’s truth to a fallen world. The sermon on the mount calls us to a life of spiritual observance and the hard path. As for your non sequitur, all criminal laws have moral implications, even driving laws are there to protect the lives of individuals. The apostles in acts 15 placed sexual purity as one of the defining marks of the christian, but you seem to think that is voluntary to live for the risen lord as a slave to sexual sin. This is not the government though but is masquerading as the church, this is the acceptance of the doctrine of demons.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            What non sequitur? It seems you are trying to have me believe you are educated in critical thinking. Quite clearly, you are not.

            NOTE: A non sequitur is an invalid/false argumentative statement. It cannot be a question. I did study logic (critical thinking) in college.

            And it is a disingenuous to dance around my questions with, “all criminal laws have moral implications . . .” Why can you not answer directly and clearly with a “yes” or “no?”

            I assume here that you are saying that you believe the government should make laws favoring Christian moral beliefs. Am I correct? Yes? No?

            Your religion is just that–a religion. ISIS, too, claims to be changing the world as necessary to please their god. Had you happened to have been born to a radical Muslim family or community, then you would have been taught to be a radical Muslim. Most people believe their respective because it is what they were taught from tot-hood to believe. Most Christians believe it because they were taught to believe it.

            So, referring to my questions, I gather that you believe that Christians have some right to intrude in the lives of people who may not even be Christians (the only way you can do that is through religious laws).

            This is the very reason I reject your apparent view that Christians should have authority over society. (google A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom) It’s a short read. Jefferson laid out precisely why religious laws cannot be made and the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was crafted from that document.

            The apostles in acts 15 placed sexual purity as one of the defining marks of the christian, but you seem to think that is voluntary to live for the risen lord as a slave to sexual sin.

            I do not belive your religion. Millions in the U.S. do not. I do not have to abide by your religious beliefs and nor does anyone else. As for same gender marriage, I believe it is very ethical to allow all people to marry the people they love. It is immoral to prevent some from it.

            Do you believe in freedom of conscience in the U.S.? Do you want to be left alone to live your life as you see fit? So do others. Do unto others as you would have time do unto you. In different words, that is in your Bible as well as other “Holy” books. Somehow you missed it, but it is the only tenet worth saving and the only one by which people should live their lives.

            This is not the government though but is masquerading as the church . . .

            This was a very confusing statement until I realized that you failed to place a comma after the word, “though.” But it is still vague on the subject of the word “This.” In fact, the statement still make no sense.

          • Timothy Lamb

            You are using an invalid argument, the article is about the church, you brought in the government, thus a non-sequitur. You reasoning did not logical flow to your conclusion. I don’t really care what you learned, that is a non-sequitur. This is an article about the leadership of a private organization, you are making a political argument that in no way relates, thus conflating two things that are not related. Your personal views on the structure of this organization mean nothing in this debate.

            As for making laws that reflect our beliefs, of course. All laws are a reflection of the cultural and moral understanding of the people making them, to pretend that they are not is some kind of faux outrage. The establishment clause is not even applicable here, if you are referring to gay marriage, that is reserved for the states and their use of policing powers, thus federalism. The fact is the left uses the court to force their interpretations onto the states even when those rights are supposed to be reserved to the state level. To pretend that the constitution in anyway spoke on gay marriage is a sick joke, the states were given the rights to rule on these issues and yet the left did not like the results. I’m am somewhat of a libertarian on these issues, because the states that supported gay marriage could have kept doing their thing, states that prohibited could do their thing. As for your understanding of the establishment clause, they should not have come into play at all here, it only outlaws the federal government from establishing a state church, hence states into the 1800’s had state churches. I suggest reading the federalist papers, it was mostly about denominational fights. As for the last statement,

            I type on my phone, but it stands. This is not a state issue, this is a private entity and this is an article about gay bishops in a church.
            What is so hard to understand?

            I find it interesting that you are making it a moral issue for gay marriage, and yet arguing with those who stand against it. What is then your moral argument against pedophiles? Against polygamy? On what basis do you judge ethnic genocide, political murders and then stand against abortion? You can say that morals should not determine public policy, but then how can you take a stand on any of these issues?

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Tim, how many times must I say this: a question CANNOT be a non sequitur. It is a question, not a statement or argument. Only arguments (verbal or written constructs that have premises and a conclusion) can be non sequitur if the CONCLUSION does not follow from the PREMISES. “Reasoning” (I think you mean premises) CANNOT flow from a conclusion.

            I asked a question in response to a comment about tolerating sin. The strength of that statement led me to ask that question.

            If you continue to insist that I set up a straw man argument, then lay it out in a simple sylogism.

            However, you’d best give up trying to identify logical fallacies because it is clear that you do not understand them.

            Now, the article was written knowing most contributors believe homosexuality to be a sin. Your Bible tells you so.

            Given the fact that fundamentalist Christians often try to use the government to pass laws that apply their religious beliefs on the rest of society, I decided to ASK THE QUESTION; “Do you believe that Christians should work through the government to change the lifestyle of others by making laws against behaviors you don’t like and consider to be sin?”

            For you to point out that this particular case does not envolve the government was unnedessary because I never said the government had anything at all to do with it.

            All laws are a reflection of the cultural and moral understanding of the people making them

            This is clearly obvious and true. But in the U.S. we are not allowed to make laws based on our religious beliefs because they are religious laws, forbidden by the Establishment Clause. As well, no other religion may do that either. It is a level playing field.

            You have raged against arguments I never made. You have made implied straw man arguments suggesting I implied something I never implied.

            But of course the Constitution does not mention homosexuals. It does not mention marriage, Christianity or Jesus either. It is a secular document and the Bill of Rights were crafted in an effort to make all citizens equal in the eyes of the law.

            But you seem to be carrying on the government argument and seem to be saying that Christian CAN make religious laws.

            I find it interesting that you are making it a moral issue for gay marriage, and yet arguing with those who stand against it.

            That statement makes absolutely no sense. If I make arguments for the morality of gay marriage, who else would I take those arguments to other than those who believe it to be immoral and try to pass laws denying same gender marriage?

            Your question on pediphilia and other uneticial practices reflect the deepest ignorance I’ve encountered to date. If you seriously want to debate morality in the Bible, then let’s have at it. But to suggest that that I am not a moral/ethical person is a deep insult–which I’m sure it was meant to be.

          • Timothy Lamb

            Look, since you imply the establishment clause means something different than the founders, the court and the historical understanding of it , it seems clear you just have a opinion which no one else shares outside of strident atheists in the last 50 yrs. Since you have a hard time separating your personal understanding from the supremes I don’t know what else to say.

            Not allowing gay marriage is not a religious law, it is in the interest to support families since they are the backbone of all civilization. There is a compelling national interest in family formation. Nature tells us that homo erotica feelings are useless, or they would have the ability to procreate. The establishment clause does not restrict religious activites, it in fact protects individuals from federal goverment interference. It does not restrict the individual from exercising his common beliefs at the ballot box, besides the fact lots of atheists and agnostics think gay marriage is wrong. In no way can you box it in to only christians. The majority of people the world over disagree with it. In the east it is considered selfish because the cultural understanding is on the importance of the family unit.

          • peanut butter

            I think the government should stay out of knocking down Christianity since this country and the Constitution was founded on Judeo-Christian rules found in the Bible, and the Ten Commandments. I do live and let live, We should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. But that doesn’t mean we are supposed to let people shove their sinful ways down our gullet. And we are supposed to abhor sin, not embrace it. If you condone sin, you are complicit in it. Those who only study the Bible to be able to argue with those who adhere to the Bible have no comprehension of this precept. And why are you arguing about lifestyle changes when you are the ones who are trying to change mine? Sounds a little hypocritical of you to me.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            this country and the Constitution was founded on Judeo-Christian rules found in the Bible, and the Ten Commandments.

            I understand that it is what you’ve been told and you want very much to believe it, but it is not quite true. That some of our laws are similar to a few in the Ten Commandments is not proof that the laws were founded on Christianity. That is a fallacy.

            Our laws were derived from Roman civil law and British common law.

            Virtually all nations have laws against murder, lying, theft, and some have laws against infidelity (not a U.S. federal law). These ethical laws are a part of secular humanism as well.

            But that doesn’t mean we are supposed to let people shove their sinful ways down our gullet.

            Exactly what sinful laws are being forced on you? That same gender marriage is legal? You are not being forced to marry someone of your own gender. You have freedom to marry someone you love and now, so does anyone else.

            Sin is a subjective, religious concept. What you believe to be sin isn’t what others believe to be sin. But it isn’t up to you to dictate to others how they must act to be happy and nor is it up to them to dictate to you how to be happy. Why is that not fair? If you consider what they do a sin, then let you god take care of it and abide by our secular constitution.

            Please note that the first three commandments are nowhere in the Constitution and not even implied.

            No one is encumbering you in your worship. No one is even suggesting that churches be shut down. So, exactly of what rights are you being deprived?

            Edited to add the second paragraph from the bottom.

          • peanut butter

            Why do you think the Ten Commandments were inscribed into the stone that makes up many of the buildings in the DC area? And into the doors that are in every courtroom? You are preaching to the wrong person here. You need to go tell some young indoctrinated student all of this bologna. I read the first two or three sentences of your comment and stopped. I can’t be brainwashed by your blather. Might as well give up. But I’m sure, like a good liberal atheist, you will have to have the last word. So go ahead. But don’t expect a response.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Read only this line if you wish to remain completely in the dark.

            LOL! First, the Ten Commandments are not inscribed on “many of the buildings in the DC area.” And even if they were, our nation was founded on our secular Constitution which says NOTHING about religion other than no religious tests (of any religion) shall be given for public office.

            As well, you will need to provide objective evidence for your claim.

            Emails of such circulating on the Internet are not objective evidence. For example, the doors to the Supreme Court’s courtroom are not enscribed with the Ten Commandments. they depict tablets inscribed with roman numerals I – V and VI – X. It does not necessarily mean the Ten Commandments.

            The real meaning of the Roman numerals:

            The wall “right above where the Supreme Court judges sit” is the east wall, on which is displayed a frieze designed by sculptor Adolph A. Weinman. The frieze features two male figures who represent the Majesty of Law and the Power of Government, flanked on the left side by a group of figures representing Wisdom, and on the right side by a group of figures representing Justice. . .

            . . . In a letter on file in the archives of the Supreme Court, Adolph Weinman, the designer of this frieze, states that the tablet visible between the two central male figures, engraved with the Roman numerals I through X, represents not the Ten Commandments but the first “ten amendments to the Constitution known as the ‘Bill of Rights.'”

            Google a couple lines of the quote and it will take you to the site of this information.

            I read the first two or three sentences of your comment and stopped. I can’t be brainwashed by your blather.

            Yes, that is the extent of conservative intellectual honesty and integrity and that is why you are ill informed. Your corporatist leaders depend on ignorance to get them elected and work against your best interest without you ever knowing.

      • hytre64

        Tolerating a Sinful Leadership, Equating Sin with Righteousness – You are correct – these are not Christian values.

        Having empathy with those trapped in a sinful lifestyle is good – just don’t go and join them in their sin.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Do you believe that Christians must work through the government to change the lifestyle of others by making laws against behaviors you don’t like and consider to be sin?

          • hytre64

            I believe that Christians must work to prevent Government from forcing Christians into a choice of being 2nd class – barred from certain types of employment or government service or being forced to violate their conscience.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            I think you need to explain what you mean? Are you suggesting that the government will not allow you to preach to others in a government job? You do realize, do you not, that such a restriction is against all religious practice on the job and applies to all religions?

            How are you being forced to violate your conscience? You do realize, do you not, that you cannot hold a government job and deny anyone in the public their constitutional rights just because of your religious beliefs?

            If that were allowed, then a devout Muslim government employee could refuse to issue drivers licences to women. You would like that?

  • Gena B

    People choose to follow the world instead of God. Why? Do they fear not being popular with the world? Fear God, (Romans 2) for His wrath is the only one they should be concerned about.

  • Paramananda Devasahayam

    Yielding to Satan and his vice is dangerous . A true Christian need to resist devil and he will flee away . Otherwise giving a little room is dangerous and so long that little room for satanic activity is there, God cannot enter into that area as He is holy. So resist devil and his intentions in defiling the Church and believers.

  • Claus von Stauffenberg

    Should we be so shocked and confounded knowing that this has become an exponential development in our world….especially today?? Jesus reminded us: “And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12).

    2 Timothy 4:4 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but things are going to get worse. Before Jesus returns, evil and wickedness is going to increase in the world.
    Lawlessness and wickedness and godlessness aren’t going to decrease; they’re going to increase. In fact, they’re going to increase to such a degree that many Christians will find their love for Christ going cold. That’s some serious, intense, lawlessness! Contrary to what the Beatles proclaimed, it’s not getting better all the time. It’s not going to get better; it’s going to get worse.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11, Paul spoke of the “man of lawlessness”:

    The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    At some point, the “lawless one” will come, and he will come in power, with false signs and wonders. He will be so impressive, so powerful, that many unbelievers will be deceived by him. The wickedness promoted and perpetuated by the lawless one will be on a colossal, sickening scale.

    It’s already bad, and it’s going to get worse. But don’t throw up your hands in despair. There’s good news!

    The good news is that, in spite of the wickedness which fills the world, the gospel of Jesus Christ will continue saving sinners! Yes, evil is powerful, but Jesus is more powerful! Yes, Satan prowls about like a roaring lion, but Jesus is the great lion slayer. Jesus encouraged Peter that the church would not be overcome, and would even stand against hell itself:

    And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
    Jesus isn’t particularly concerned with the most recent Barna report, or church growth study, or the state of Hollywood. He will build his church, and there is absolutely nothing that can stop him.

    Even as Jesus talked about the spike in lawlessness, he also promised that the gospel would be proclaimed in ALL nations:

    And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:14)
    And when the big, bad, man of lawlessness appears, Jesus will take care of him too:

    And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
    When Jesus returns, he will utterly decimate the man of lawlessness. Farewell, lawless one! King Jesus has arrived!

  • Claus von Stauffenberg

    Should we be so shocked and confounded knowing that sin has become an exponential development in our world….especially today?? Jesus reminded us: “And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12).

    2 Timothy 4:4 “ In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.”

    Not to be a Debbie Downer, but things are going to get worse. Before Jesus returns, evil and wickedness is going to increase in the world.
    Lawlessness and wickedness and godlessness aren’t going to decrease; they’re going to increase. In fact, they’re going to increase to such a degree that many Christians will find their love for Christ going cold. That’s some serious, intense, lawlessness! Contrary to what the Beatles proclaimed, it’s not getting better all the time. It’s not going to get better; it’s going to get worse.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:9–11, Paul spoke of the “man of lawlessness”:

    The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
    At some point, the “lawless one” will come, and he will come in power, with false signs and wonders. He will be so impressive, so powerful, that many unbelievers will be deceived by him. The wickedness promoted and perpetuated by the lawless one will be on a colossal, sickening scale.

    It’s already bad, and it’s going to get worse. But don’t throw up your hands in despair. There’s good news!

    The good news is that, in spite of the wickedness which fills the world, the gospel of Jesus Christ will continue saving sinners! Yes, evil is powerful, but Jesus is more powerful! Yes, Satan prowls about like a roaring lion, but Jesus is the great lion slayer. Jesus encouraged Peter that the church would not be overcome, and would even stand against hell itself: “…I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
    Jesus isn’t particularly concerned with the most recent Barna report, or church growth study, or the state of Hollywood. He will build His church, and there is absolutely nothing that can stop Him.

    Even as Jesus talked about the spike in lawlessness, He also promised that the gospel would be proclaimed in ALL nations: “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
    And when the big, bad, man of lawlessness appears, Jesus will take care of him too:

    And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of His mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of His coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
    When Jesus returns, He will utterly decimate the man of lawlessness. Farewell, lawless one! King Jesus has arrived!