Activist Seeks ‘Aggressive Punishment’ of Air Force Major Who Left Open Bible on Desk

Photo Credit: Wong Mei Teng
Photo Credit: Wong Mei Teng

COLORADO SPRINGS, Co. — The leader of a prominent activist organization that seeks to separate God from the military is asking that the Air Force “aggressively punish” a superior officer who has long displayed an open Bible on his desk.

According to reports, Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) recently sent a letter to Col. Damon Feltman, the commander of the 310th Space Wing at the Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, to issue a complaint about the Bible displayed by Maj. Steve Lewis, a supervisor at the Reserve National Security Space Institute.

“For years, [Lewis] has kept an open, yellow-highlighted Christian Bible displayed front and center, quite prominently, on his official USAF work desk in an open office work environment,” Weinstein said.

“The egregious constitutional and DoD regulatory violations of such a brazen display of sectarian Christian triumphalism and exceptionalism have been noted by many USAF members through the years,” he asserted, but none have expressed objection due to “fear of reprisal and retribution.”

Weinstein demanded that the Bible be moved out of sight, and kept to his own personal use.

“MRFF now demands that you order this Major Steve Lewis to immediately take down his Christian biblical display
from his official USAF desktop,” he said. “It is fine, of course, if he wishes to keep his Christian Bible, replete with yellow-highlighted verses, in a desk or office drawer or even in a handy, nearby office bookcase but NOT open, yellow-highlighted and at the very epicenter of his USAF work desk for all of his helpless subordinates and many others to view continuously on a daily basis.”

Weinstein further requested that Lewis be investigated and “aggressively punished” for “poisoning” the environment at the institute with the biblical display.

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“MRFF demands that … pending the results of the investigation, both he and his direct supervisor, Colonel Lisa Johnson, be swiftly, visibly and aggressively punished for allowing this long-running, repulsive violation of USAF regulations and bedrock Constitutional law to fatally poison the Command Climate in the RNSSI,” he wrote.

Following Weinstein’s letter, Lewis removed the Bible while the Air Force investigates the complaint.

“He has removed the Bible voluntarily because he didn’t want this to cause attention or disruption to his unit,” Feltman told conservative reporter Todd Starnes. “I’ve performed a walk-through of the office and everything seemed to be in compliance with Air Force regulation.”

He explained that he is waiting on the unit commander to review the situation, who will determine whether or not the presence of the Bible was inappropriate.

“As long as he’s not doing something excessive, the existence of a Bible or the Koran or the Torah or some other religious article is not prohibited,” Feltman said. “It’s what you do with it when you have it.”

“The 310th ‘Space’ Wing is NOT called the 310th ‘Space For My Personal Proselytizing Christian Bible Shrine’ Wing for a [expletive] good reason,” Weinstein said in a statement. “Major Steve Lewis has created an around-the-clock Christian Bible Shrine on his official USAF workstation desk that has been in prominent static display for YEARS.”

But some state that Air Force officials should ignore Weinstein as Lewis has done nothing wrong.

“I want to personally thank Major Steve Lewis for displaying his Bible replete with yellow highlighted verses, as I do all of the time. Major Lewis has a constitutional right to embrace his sincerely held theological convictions without anyone abridging his free exercise of religion,” Sonny Hernandez, an Air Force chaplain assigned to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, wrote in an article last week about the matter.

“His devotion to Scripture is evidence of being a Christian (Ps. 1), which is why it is important for the military to ensure that anti-God, anti-Christian hate groups do not subdue his rights that many soldiers, sailors, Marines, and Airmen have died defending,” he continued. “Supporters of religious liberty should be defending the Constitution, not denigrating Christians, which is why Weinstein should be ignored.”

“Mr. Weinstein’s legal affronts can easily stir emotions and cause foreboding, but this need not be,” Hernandez said. “[W]hen contacted by Weinstein, don’t act hastily; continue to protect the free exercise of religion for all your Airmen, and resist him—because once Weinstein is ignored, he will flee.”

Editor’s Note: Hernandez’ opinions are solely his and do not necessarily represent the views of any government, military or religious organization.


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  • Grace Kim Kwon

    US military needs the Holy Bible for salvation, guidance, hope, and comfort! USA is meaningless apart from Christianity as a man is meaningless without his conscience.

    • Josey

      they love their sin

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        A righteous homeland is worthy of soldiers’ life and sacrifice, not a nation that hates the Word of God. Why won’t American men remember their fathers and grandfathers and their great-grandfathers? So sad. A true son cannot betray the father’s noble dream. US soldiers need the copies of the Holy Bible more than anything else in this world.

        • Ginger

          There would be no America if there was not a Christian Holy Bible based Revolution. Read “The Light and The Glory” by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. The liberals do not want us to know about it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, Christianity is the only excellence and meaning and lifeline of the Western civilization thus of the entire planet.

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      So, the Constitution’s Establishment Clause does not apply to the military? People of other faiths and none at all are frowned upon and should be passed over for promotion? Or do you think that wouldn’t happen?

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        All ideologies and religions and philosophies other than Judeo-Christian value produce massive number of innocent human victims. Christianity must dominate for everyone to be safe. Americans do not know the outside world because they’ve been spoiled by the nicest Protestant Church for the longest time from the very beginning.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          My word, Grace. Have you taken a look at Christian history or understood what enables people to go to war?

          Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.–Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)

          I’ll give you this; Christianity, even fundamentalist Christianity, is in general morally above Fundamentalist, radical Islam–but that does not make the ideology right. Christianity has been bathed in the waters of reason during and after the Enlightenment. Pre enlightenment Christianity was not much better and in some cases just as bad as the ideology of ISIS. Read about the auto da feys during the Spanish Inquisition.

          In this nation, Muslim citizens are in general every bit as peaceful as Christian citizens even as Christian fundamentalists heap condescension and hatred on them. There are Muslim mavericks just as there are Christian mavericks in the U.S.

          Around the world, Muslims attack Christians (and each other) and Christians attack Muslims (they used to attack each other). This will always be the case as long as religions have their citadel walls of exclusive dogma.

          Americans do not know or understand other religions because the predominate religion in the U.S. has virtually shut out all positive information and accepted the old Hollywood movie stereotype of the wild-eyed, mean-faced, teeth-clinched Muslim/Arab with his sword flashing as he attacks Europeans/Christians.

          I say dump all exclusive religious tenets and live by the only one necessary to bring about peace and understanding–Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

  • The Skeptical Chymist

    You cannot convince me that Major Lewis left the Bible out on display on his desk for his personal religious reasons. If that were the case, why would he object to putting it inside his desk when he’s not reading it? By leaving it open on his desk, he was making a divisive political statement. In an area of employment that demands unit cohesion, this is unacceptable. He is intentionally stirring up animosity with members of his unit who follow other religions.

  • Steven

    MRFF demands that … pending the results of the investigation, both he and his direct supervisor, Colonel Lisa Johnson, be swiftly, visibly and aggressively punished

    Not just forced to come into Air Force regulations [sic], but visibly and aggressively punished. Yeah! When taken at whole, one can’t rationally avoid the glaring truth that Christianity is under attack, while Islam–whose atrocious existence seems to be passively acknowledged–seems to have a fraternal relationship with these type of groups.

    A visible confirmation of Matthew 4:9, and Ephesians 6:12.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      The liberals are trying to tame the Muslim population just as they had corrupted young people and even some “Christians.” In the end, only the Truth prevails.

  • Amos Moses

    Sounds to me like the military is becoming a hostile work environment …………..

    • MarkSebree

      It has been a hostile work environment for years for homosexuals, atheists, agnostics, Wiccans, Muslims, those who were not “the right sort of Christian” (i.e. non-evangelical), and many others. Requiring that the leadership actually follow the law and regulations is not out of line.

      • Amos Moses

        so the first amendment is no longer law …….. got it ……….

        • MarkSebree

          I never said that. The fact that it is the law is why the Air Force Major should have been told to put the Bible into his desk, and that he can read it during chow and on his free time. And that it has no place on top of his desk during working hours because of his position of leadership. As it stands, it is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the US Constitution since he is representing the US government while he is in uniform and at his desk. The Freedom of Conscious Clause is subservient to the Establishment Clause, especially in the military, because of the power that government representatives have to impose their beliefs onto their subordinates or the general populace, depending on the job.

          You did not mention anything about the First Amendment in original post. You just mentioned the hostile work environment in the military, implying that it was becoming this. I simply pointed out that it has long been a hostile work environment for many groups because of Christians, especially evangelical/dominionistic Christians, in positions of leadership. And the military is not a hostile work environment for far right wing Christians in general, and requiring that the major and the command that he belongs to actually follow the law and Air Force Regulations does not make it a hostile work environment.

          He can follow his religious beliefs on his own time. He cannot proselytize to his subordinates, he cannot create an impression of favoritism and disfavoritism towards any subordinate because of his or her religion, and his is supposed to represent the US Government with honor.

          Perhaps you can tell me what his Bible has to do with his job, since he is not a chaplain. Nobody has been able to come up with a satisfactory reason.

          • gramma aac

            Establishment Clause, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”, does not apply here. The Air Force Major is not making laws, (nor is he violating them!)

          • Theo

            You obviously have no education on the First Amendment or history. The Establishment clause simply means no particular sect of Christianity is to be preferred or ‘established’ above any other and goes hand in hand with the religious Free exercise clause else the two contradict. In the proposed wording for the First Amendment the Chief Architect of the Constitution James Madison proposed that there be no national denomination of Christianity. Chief Justice Rhenquist in the Supreme Court decision Wallace v Jaffree in 1985 reviews this in depth. And funny, when Jefferson wrote his famed separation of church and state letter 14 years after the Bill of Rights was passed, all the states except Virginia had official state denominations of Christianity and Jefferson was writing the Danbury Baptist Association, worried that another Christian denomination would be made the official denomination of Virginia, to assure them that Virginia would not follow the other States examples and would maintain freedom of religion and not have a state sponsored denomination of Christianity. Further every state had a requirement that to hold office one had to belief in Jesus, God, the Bible or Christianity just not a particular denomination until the mid to late 1800’s. As well, in the Supreme Court case Holy Trinity vs the US, the Chief Justice after reviewing every State Constitution declared, ‘this is a Christian nation’. Our legal system and Constitution is based upon Christianity and freedom of religion avoiding denominationalism which was the very reason the US was founded, to escape King George’s requirement that everyone be Anglican.

  • Nidalap

    Poor vampires. Must’ve burned them something fierce…

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Fahrenheit 451. Villains burn the same thing over and over again, but the Holy Bible never disappears, like the nation of Isreal on earth. God’s covenant is eternal in the entire universe! Americans only confirmed it.

    • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

      My concern is that the vampires don’t really have a stake in this. What is it to them if the major has silver bullets in his side arm?

      • MarkSebree

        One, silver bullets are for werewolves.

        Two, the concern is not about the Bible per say, but rather the implicit favoritism that implies towards “his type” of Christians, and the potential discrimination against other types of Christians as well as non-Christians in his command.

        He is a government representative, which means that he is bound by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution while he is in uniform and/or representing the US Government. What’s more, he is also a military officer, which means that he is bound by DOD regulations as well as Air Force Regulations. The pertinent one is Air Force Instruction 1-1, paragraphs 2.10 thru 2.12, if I recall correctly.

        And there is another element to this. Military leaders, particularly officers who are unit commanders or above, have a great deal of power over their subordinates. The subordinates are REQUIRED to do what he tells them, with only a few exceptions. They cannot talk back to him, and generally cannot disagree with him. They also cannot walk away from him. He can approve or deny schooling and leave. He decides punishments for infractions. He decides who to approve or submit for awards, and who to deny them to. He is the one that decides what assignments and billets his subordinates get. He can literally make or break your career depending on whether or not he “likes” you. He has far more power over his subordinates than can be applied over anyone in the civilian world outside of prison.

        That is why regulations exist to limit his power, and why there are supposed to be avenues that a subordinate can take to report a superior who apparently is getting out of line, or ignoring important regulations. However, every military person knows that these avenues often do not work well because of the nature of the military hierarchy, mindset, and culture. That is why subordinates are afraid to complain about superiors who appear to be proselytizing or showing religious favoritism or disfavoritism towards anyone besides evangelical/dominionistic Christians. This is also why people, especially women, are afraid to come forward with charges of rape.

        And that is why the work of Mikey Weinstein and the MRFF is so important. These military people have no place else that they can go that they can trust.

        • Nidalap

          Well thankfully, he’s been cleared of any wrongdoing and told he can have an open Bible at his desk if he so chooses.
          The vamps’ll just have to hiss and slink back into the shadows this time! 🙂

        • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

          So you’re saying he’s a vampire, and that’s why there’s a Bible on his desk (wait, does that make sense?), and he should be fired, because fire is the only way to kill a vampire.

        • Theo

          Ok chicken-little, for the sake of argument let’s grant everything you asserted the response is so what? That would be true of anyone with any authority who could abuse it and so we have to be totally secular or humanist about everything which is still a belief and still can be abusive so it is a non-sequitur. Then the fact is there is no evidence from anyone that any abuse of which you spoke is possible had occurred. Your statement is hyper-generic and has nothing to do with a Bible open on an military man’s desk. Can we get back to reality or is the sky falling? And again: “You obviously have no education on the First Amendment or history. The Establishment clause simply means no particular sect of Christianity is to be preferred or ‘established’ above any other and goes hand in hand with the religious Free exercise clause else the two contradict. In the proposed wording for the First Amendment the Chief Architect of the Constitution James Madison proposed that there be no national denomination of Christianity. Chief Justice Rhenquist in the Supreme Court decision Wallace v Jaffree in 1985 reviews this in depth. And funny, when Jefferson wrote his famed separation of church and state letter 14 years after the Bill of Rights was passed, all the states except Virginia had official state denominations of Christianity and Jefferson was writing the Danbury Baptist Association, worried that another Christian denomination would be made the official denomination of Virginia, to assure them that Virginia would not follow the other States examples and would maintain freedom of religion and not have a state sponsored denomination of Christianity. Further every state had a requirement that to hold office one had to belief in Jesus, God, the Bible or Christianity just not a particular denomination until the mid to late 1800’s. As well, in the Supreme Court case Holy Trinity vs the US, the Chief Justice after reviewing every State Constitution declared, ‘this is a Christian nation’. Our legal system and Constitution is based upon Christianity and freedom of religion avoiding denominationalism which was the very reason the US was founded, to escape King George’s requirement that everyone be Anglican.”

      • Nidalap

        They may not have a stake in this, but that won’t stop them from taking a stab at it! 🙂

  • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

    It’s not like anyone has to read it. I see no problem with his Bible being opened on his desk.

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      Of course not. I suspect, however, were it the Holy Quran, your attitude would be something like outrage.

      • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

        If it would be on someones desk. I would not be forced to read it. I will keep you in my Prayers.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Would you be as accepting if your commanding officer had a Quran as a permanent fixture on his desk (opened to highlighted verses) or perhaps Dawkins’ The God Delusion? It would not make you uncomfortable?

          And it wasn’t his desk. It’s property of the U.S. government.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            Sorry but I am not going to play your games.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            I’m sorry if you think questions relevant to the Constitution is a game. I assure you, it is not. It is important that government officials abide by it by promoting no religious opinions.

  • Amos Moses

    Atheists Turn Out In Droves For Fedora Giveaway Night At Angel Stadium
    August 22, 2016

  • jashar160

    Betcha if it was a Koran, the Upanishads or a Satanic Bible , not a word would have been said!

    • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

      Any book that goes against the Bible they will approve.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        It’s an instict. Villains and oppressors hate the Holy Bible because they know that the Word of God alone makes humanity truly free. It’s sad to see US military behaving like all the world’s villains they have defeated last century. USA has nothing worthy if it has no Bible. Man’s worth is in his conscience.

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          Sad but very true.

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Villains and oppressors hate the Holy Bible because they know that the Word of God alone makes humanity truly free.

          Most religions have what I consider the greatest tenet of all: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you:

          It is Baha’i: “Ascribe not to any soul that which thou wouldst not have ascribed to thee, and say not that which thou doest not. . . .Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself.” Baha’u’llah;

          It is Buddhism: “…a state that is not pleasing or delightful to me, how could I inflict that upon another?” Samyutta Nikaya v. 353;

          It is Christianity: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31, King James Version;

          It is Secular Humanism: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you;

          It is Brahmanism: “This is the sum of Dharma (duty): Do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you.” Mahabharata, 5:1517;

          It is Islam: “None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself.” Number 13 of Imam Al-Nawawi’s Forty Hadiths;

          It is Judaism: “What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary.” Talmud, Shabbat 31a;

          It is Confucianism: “When one cultivates to the utmost the principles of his nature, and exercises them on the principle of reciprocity, he is not far from the path. What you do not like when done to yourself, do not do to others.” Confucius, Doctrine of the Mean.
          ——————–
          The unfortunate truth is that many religions then build high, thick walls of exclusive dogma that crushes that single, greatest tenet beneath. That is probably the most divisive human construct on Earth.

          Indeed, benevolent reciprocity is a moral concept advocated by the ancient sages, these and many more religions, as well as atheists and agnostics the world over. It is possibly the highest moral value ever espoused and yet most who claim to adhere to this philosophy often ignore it, especially in politics.

          If this were not so, then there would exist little or no poverty, few if any wars, and harmony would reign. Why would this not be something to which everyone, including their gods, agree?

          The most difficult part, however, is overcoming our strong impulse to territoriality and xenophobia–the very mortar that holds the walls together.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Westerners are illiterate barbarians like the rest if they had no Bible. The problem of the West is that they are too proud against the God of the Holy Bible though they are average barbarians among men on Planet Earth. Secular West is trying to enslave mankind with their abnormal sexual immorality because their good Christian parents gave them everything they want and they are bored and childless this century. Enough of atrocities done by the rich Western pervs. Unlike other civilizations, the Western nations need Christianity to be sane and normal because Christianity is the only conscience in the West.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Secular West is trying to enslave mankind with their abnormal sexual immorality because their good Christian parents gave them everything they want and they are bored and childless this century.

            Please be specific. What secular law has enslaved you to become sexually immoral? What sexual or religious rights have been taken from you?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secular West imprisons pastors who speak against homosexuality and those refuse to issue marriage certificate to such sinful living. They fine Christian bakers and florists and the wedding hall owners who refuse to serve the Sodomic sin. They teach homosexual immorality in public schools as if abnormal sexuality is citizens’ duty. You don’t notice anything because you are in the slave owners’ side and not the victims’ side. The Westerners are good only when they are Christian-moral.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            That’s where I figured you would go. The only people who can issue marriage licences are employees of the government. They are paid by ALL taxpayers and are required to serve ALL taxpayers. Kim Davis was refusing to perform her duty as a government agent and she was jailed after ignoring a court order to perform her duty.

            The government is forbidden by the Constitution from operating according to any particular religion or religious belief. It is a secular government, the Constitution is a secular document, and Davis’ job was to obey (she took an oath to do so) the secular law in her secular job.

            No paster has been imprisoned for speaking against homosexuals. You are not truthful. If a paster violates a law, then he should be jailed. But simply raving about homosexuality is not against the law. If he was jailed, it was not because of that.

            As for Christian bakers, they are licenced to do business to the public and the licensing agency is the government which is supported by the taxpayers (all taxpayers). Every citizen has a right to participate in open, legal commerce. Bigotry is not an excuse to exclude any legal, taxpaying citizen from commerce.

            That Homosexuality is a sin is a RELIGIOUS belief and has no bearing on legal commerce. The Bible says we must kill homosexuals. Is that what you want?

            As for Christians being moral, most I’m quite sure are, but one does not have to be a Christian to be moral/ethical.

            In fact, I see trying to bend others to conform to one’s religious beliefs by refusing to serve them because of who they are, to be immoral.

            And true freedom is the ability to follow the dictates of one’s own conscience in seeking happiness. It is not for you to dictate to others how they may or may not be happy. Just leave them alone and if you have a business, follow the law. It’s really that easy.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The West including USA has no freedom because everyone has to affirm abnormal sexual immorality there. The West needs Christianity for salvation and human rights and freedom like all others do.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Grace, it is “abnormal” to YOU and many other fundamentalist Christians. I can give you the argument about ambiguous genitalia and phenotype vs. genotype, but I don’t think you would accept it over your belief. It’s science.

            As far as I am concerned (as one Founder put it), how others seek happiness “neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” I would like to see all people living according to the dictates of their conscience and leaving everyone else to do the same. What a peaceful nation that would bring.

            Human rights? I think you have a very narrow view of human rights. Human rights, at least those promoted in the Declaration of Independence, i.e., “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” mention nothing about one group dictating to another group how they may or may not pursue happiness.

            Believe as you wish, worship whom you wish and live your life according to your conscience, but leave others to do the same. They don’t believe as you. They don’t interfere with your life, you should not interfere with theirs.

            You have the right, of course, to engage in debate with them if they are willing.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You need Christian fundies. They are the only good Americans alive in the land. Please read the Holy Bible to find eternal life. Western liberals are self-destructive in being self-smart. It never worked before and never will. Man must become humble before the Creator God to be civilized. Read His Word to obtain truth and life.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Grace, I see that there is no way I could soften your hard stance. I’m a firm believer in the only tenet I believe worth holding; Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. In Christianity, it is:

            “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” Luke 6:31, King James Version

            I have formal education in world religions, Christianity included. I’ve formal education in philosophy, including the great thinkers of religion such as Descartes and Aquinas.

            I was once, in my younger years before college, in your camp–a firm believer. I know now that there are good people of all beliefs and those of no religion at all. Most people believe their religion because it was what they were taught from birth do believe.

            As for reading the Bible, I’ve read much of it. In fact, I wrote a novel, based on biblical literality, that suggests what it would take, if the Bible were true, to bring about a world of peace and brotherhood.

            It does not bother me that you are a Christian. What bothers me is that so many Christians look at virtually everybody else who were taught a different religion or through reason put all religions aside, with disdain. Most are very good people who want the same things as you and me.

            But I understand your intractability. You will not accept that, so I suppose we should just agree to disagree, and let it go at that.

      • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

        ?? Any book that goes against the Bible they will approve??

        Are you sure you didn’t mean to say that any book that goes against the Bible would NOT be approved? Your sentence says that even the Satanic Bible would be approved.

        • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

          Sorry that you do not understand what I tried to say.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Thanks for that. Rereading, I see your meaning. You are saying that any book that goes against the Bible would be allowed on the officer’s desk. Of course, that is not true. No religious material or book making a religious statement would be allowed and that goes for the Satanic Bible as well.

            Under the Constitution, everyone’s belief is personal and sacred to that person and no arm of the government may even appear to suggest differently. The reasoning behind this stems from Jefferson’s A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom. You can find it by googling the name given, and add “Founders Online.” It’s a short read and spells out exactly why a government official may not advance religious messages while on duty.

          • LadyInChrist♥BlessedBeTheLord

            I will still keep you in my Prayers, but you’ll need to find someone else to troll.I am going to block you so I will no longer see what you post. Good night.
            Shalom

    • MarkSebree

      Actually, it is more likely that it would have been handled internally within the command structure since they are overwhelmingly Christian. The subordinates would not have been afraid to file an EO complaint about the violation. However, since it was a Bible, they knew, or at least strongly suspected, that they would have been outed, even though such complaints are supposed to be anonymous, and then ostracized, punished for complaining about the violations of Air Force regulations, denied leave and schools, been given disproportionate punishment for any perceived infractions, and possibly even been framed for something that would have resulted in a Bad Conduct Discharge, which is essentially the same as a felony record that follows you for the rest of your life.

      That is why people like Mikey are needed. To maintain the confidentiality and anonymity of the people filing the complaint.

      • Theo

        Amazing chicken-little, you seem to have intimate knowledge of everyone’s mindset, that the superiors are all evangelical Christians and the subordinates are non-Christians cowering in fear. Thank God we have you and the MRFF who know all and are needed to save us from ourselves and our history of the US based upon Christianity to become the greatest nation in history. The sky hit you on the head yet?

  • Robert

    I dont think any one in theor right Mind would acuse the us. military of being Godly . There for i dont see a problem even if there were a thousand open bibles on different desks ..they have to be read and believed to make a better military than the one we have now..

  • http://www.bing.com/ Martin Smit

    Since the MRFF holds such a high rank in the air force, why don’t they just command the major to do as they please? What, they don’t? Is this complaint from the lower ranks? That’s insubordination! Lock them up overnight, and if they don’t change their mind, then drum them out!

  • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

    From the letter:

    [Suppose] another USAF official chose to similarly display, just as Major Steve Lewis presently exhibits his open and yellow-highlighted Christian bible in the very center of his official USAF desk, other sectarian, theological texts such as The Satanic Bible, the Islamic Quran, the Hindu Shruti, the Sikh Adi Granth and the Atheist movementʼs leading texts such as Richards Dawkinsʼ “The God Delusion”, the late Christopher Hitchensʼ “God is Not Great” or Sam Harrisʼ “The End of Faith”? Can you seriously not see MRFFʼs crystal clear, rational and reasonable point here, Colonel Feltman?

    Be honest, folks, do you think a similar display of the Quran or The God Delusion by Dawkins would be fine with you?

    • MarkSebree

      Personally, I class them all the same way, and deserve the same treatment. None of them belong on a military person’s desk during working hours, especially not a senior enlisted or officer’s desk, since they each create an appearance of favoritism or disparagement of one or more religions. They can be in the desk, backpack, briefcase, or anywhere else out of sight, and the person is certainly free to read them during chow or while off-duty, but not while the person is actively representing the US Government.

      • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

        Excellent. I agree.

      • Chet

        Why not just walk past someone else’s desk and keep your eyes to yourself as opposed to being a busybody… That Holy Bible lying there is just as innocent as a loaded weapon lying in one’s nightstand at home. The gun will never, ever go off on its own and that Holy Bible will never do anyone any harm nor good unless it’s picked up and read…

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Would you feel the same way if it were the Holy Quran? Or, perhaps Dawkins’ ?The God Delusion?” You would know, of course, that your Christianity would be known to him. Would not that open statement of your superior’s religion make you a bit uncomfortable? You have to admit you could not avoid seeing it and that it is a statement as clearly as a bumper sticker.

          Besides, the officer, when on duty, is an arm of the government and the government cannot show any religion favoritism. That is embodied in the Constitution.

          • Theo

            Wrongo, it cannot show any particular sect of Christianity and favoritism. You obviously have no education on the First Amendment or history. The Establishment clause simply means no particular sect of Christianity is to be preferred or ‘established’ above any other and goes hand in hand with the religious Free exercise clause else the two contradict. In the proposed wording for the First Amendment the Chief Architect of the Constitution James Madison proposed that there be no national denomination of Christianity. Chief Justice Rhenquist in the Supreme Court decision Wallace v Jaffree in 1985 reviews this in depth. And funny, when Jefferson wrote his famed separation of church and state letter 14 years after the Bill of Rights was passed, all the states except Virginia had official state denominations of Christianity and Jefferson was writing the Danbury Baptist Association, worried that another Christian denomination would be made the official denomination of Virginia, to assure them that Virginia would not follow the other States examples and would maintain freedom of religion and not have a state sponsored denomination of Christianity. Further every state had a requirement that to hold office one had to belief in Jesus, God, the Bible or Christianity just not a particular denomination until the mid to late 1800’s. As well, in the Supreme Court case Holy Trinity vs the US, the Chief Justice after reviewing every State Constitution declared, ‘this is a Christian nation’. Our legal system and Constitution is based upon Christianity and freedom of religion avoiding denominationalism which was the very reason the US was founded, to escape King George’s requirement that everyone be Anglican.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            You obviously have no education on the First Amendment or history.

            Now that is an amazing statement and couldn’t be further from the truth.

            Have you ever looked into the origin of the Establishment Clause? Apparently not.

            It was written by James Madison who was a strong supporter of Thomas Jefferson who wrote A Bill for Establishing Religious freedom. this bill was ushered through the Virginia Legislature by Madison (Jefferson was in France at the time), and, after a few minor changes, became law in Virginia.

            The three paragraphs of text embodied in that bill gives the very purpose behind the Establishment Clause and it is the document to which the courts refer in church and state issues.

            If you are honestly interested in knowing the thinking behind the Establishment Clause, I invite you to google “A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, 18 June, 1779” and “founders online.”

            And, by the way, Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian.

          • Chet

            Seeing any other book of worship surely would not thrill me as there is but one God and one means only by which sinful man can know him and that being via his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And in that Jesus is The Way, The Truth and The Life, knowing such one seeking God in any other fashion would generate a silent prayer for his salvation and deliverance from the forces of darkness, i.e., the Devil and his ministering spirits of demons.

            Nevertheless, doubtful that I’d make a stink over it anymore than seeing a magazine open with pics of beautiful women exposed. Now, that would excite normal men, thus, it’d be all the more reason to merely look away and keep moving. Now, to whine to the commander or supervisor of such demanding that immediate action be taken against the offender, no, no I wouldn’t, preferring to leave it all up to the Almighty.

            Allowing a Holy Bible to be open on one’s personal workspace is far and away from one these days daring to take a stand in defense of the gospel at his own peril in light of today’s anti God anti Christ climate of American ingrates… That is, those who think the USA has become what it has on its own merits without God’s divine intervention… BTW, from time to time I see bumper sticks vulgar as Hell itself and wonder how those with kids in their car handle the wickedness of such words. Nevertheless, I don’t cry to the DMV or local LEO’s… Christians are warriors as good soldiers of the Cross, and on the order of Daniel and John Baptist, not snowflakes in uniform or out…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Well, I was once in your camp, my friend. But I consider myself very fortunate that the winds fate steered me in a different direction. I was raised to be a fundamentalist Christian, but it appears that I had something in me that cried out for objective truth. I didn’t recognize it until the last of three separate incidences made it clear, and made me realize that too many people disagree in matters of theology. So where is objective truth?

            The first of my three incidences came in high school Bible class (the only religion offered in my public high school). After having being taught that predestination is not biblical, I came across Revelation 13:8 which seemed to suggest predestination. I asked the bible teacher to explain–make it clear. She hesitated and then said, “we’re not suppose to know everything.”

            I was taken aback, but relegated it to a curiosity I would explore later and ask my paster. He couldn’t give me a straight answer either.

            The second came in Army Basic Training when I met my first atheist who was arguing with some friends of mine. I entered the debate and was thoroughly trounced by his knowledge of the Bible, of other religions, of evolution (it was never mentioned in my high school), and his arguments were irrefutably logical. That shook me to my theological core.

            After several weeks spent in deep prayer, I had the third incident. Three Mormons, seeing my piety, invited me to the home of one, off post. I accepted. There, they tried to convert me to Mormonism. I argued with them for some time, but finally I asked, “How do you know you are right?” the three of them said that they know in their hearts they are right.

            I answered, “Yes, but so do the Jews, the Hindu, the Buddhists, the Muslims, and the Catholics. They all know in their hearts that they are right. Every person of every religion believes himself to be right.”

            After a delightful dinner and taking my leave, it hit me that my final argument to them, applied to me as well: I had no right to believe I had a lock on the truth–I was taught to believe what I believed.

            That was when I decided to put my beliefs in abeyance and go back to school to study world religions, philosophy and paleoanthropology.

            I am so very happy that I did. It set my mind free. I learned that science and reason are wondrous and exciting things. Science challenges one to a never ending exploration to understand not only our origin, but why humans act as they do. The mind sours as we read of the reasoned probability of many other civilizations in our universe. And the most beautiful thing is that for every question answered, more belly up to the bar.

            Therefore, you and I are now deep in two different worlds, I insist that mine must be objective. I see your world as mine once was, unquestionably subjective, dependant on a number of circumstances, not the least of which is the culture into which we are born and what we are taught to believe.

          • Chet

            Well, Sir, good conversing with you and as long as you have breath the Holy Spirit of God can very well draw you back to the Saviour. Hopefully, one day, circumstances (perhaps beyond your control) will drive you back to the fold as Christ meets you with arms outstretched… If not, well, respectfully, your words seem to indicate you left your first love for another god, secular humanism. And then, there’s the law of sowing and reaping of which you are obviously familiar..

            For me, I never travelled the route you’ve trod. I just loved my SIN and enjoyed most all the things men customarily do even as alcohol almost wrecked my life causing me unbelievable pain and shame, as it was a hard, hard habit to shake. And, again, one must reap what he sows…

            Since Christ saved my soul, I’ve never, ever given thought to some other supposed deity or god or way of life without Him. And to this day, I have absolutely no regrets about having received the Lord Jesus Christ as my own personal Saviour, my Master and Friend…

            One day, I shall drop dead and immediately enter into Heaven’s gates of Glory all due to Christ and the Cross, His great Mercy and Grace, as His precious blood has washed all my umpteen million SINS away, never even to be remembered against me. So, I say praise the Lord and remain fully confident of Him to keep me saved and secure in His Grace and absolutely nothing of my own doing. God bless you anyway…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            God bless you anyway…

            I appreciate that and I’m very glad you recovered from drinking. My main habit was smoking, but was able to reason myself out of it around 1980.

            Thank you for your civility and conversation. 😀

    • Chet

      Why not just walk past someone else’s private workspace and keep one’s eyes front and center, off another’s private space and avoid being a nosey busybody. That Holy Bible, much like one’s loaded firearm at home, will never do anyone any good or harm unless it’s picked up and properly used. They can both lay there 1000 years and do nothing one way or the other.

      • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

        An officer’s desk top is NOT a private workspace. He is not a private citizen when on duty. He is an agent of the U.S. government in a commanding position. Subordinates come and go. They should not be met with a statement about the officer’s religious belief, which his Bible represents.

        But you did not honestly consider that if you had to frequently (or infrequently) enter a superior officer’s office and observed a permanent Quran or Dawkins “The God Delusion,” on the desk, what message would you take from that and would you be worried that his opinions may be counter to yours and you could in some way suffer from that?

        Do you not think that an atheist would be uncomfortable in his office? After all, your religious preference is a part of the record that he can read–and probably has.

        • Chet

          When one walks into any superior’s office, one way or another, one then faces a fellow sinner, just as the one darkening his door… Be the superior a Christian or atheist, the learned and grounded Christian trusts his Lord to work out everything in his own good order and timing… And, BTW, an officer or enlisted on EAD is subject to UCMJ off duty as well as on… Such is never a “private citizen” till released from AD… Now, respectfully, either you’ve forgotten good order and discipline 7/24 or perhaps never served…

          On the other hand, a child of the true and living God, of the Holy Bible, is a child of God 7/24 and his indwelling Holy Spirit is to direct the believer’s steps, in uniform or out, in prison or on the street. If God doesn’t affect his life, positively and in accordance with his Word, something’s amiss…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Now, respectfully, either you’ve forgotten good order and discipline 7/24 or perhaps never served…

            The Uniform Code of Military Justice has nothing to do with this debate. The debate is about the Establishment Clause preventing government employees, especially those in authority, from proselytizing or in any way promoting their religious views to subordinates. Subordinates are not all of the same religion and every religion, under the Constitution, is equal to all others and those with no religion at all have equal standing as well.

            The officer’s display is the same as a public school teacher displaying religious material in the classroom or a judge having the Ten Commandments posted on the front of his bench. Both are illegal under the Constitution.

            Bottom line, the officer’s display is a statement. It can depreciate good order and discipline when the subordinates are of a different faith or are atheists.

            I understand that you are okay with it, as long as it is the Christian Bible on display. I seriously doubt you would feel the same about the Holy Quran.

          • Chet

            You and I see the “Establishment Clause” so fundamentally different so as to never agree…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Yes, I see it as the courts see it.–the intent behind it.

            If you are truly interested in knowing how the courts see it, I invite you to google “A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, 18 June, 1779” and “Founders Online.” The bill was written by Jefferson and ushered through the Virginia Legislature by James Madison. After some miner edits, it became law in Virginia.

            It was that document from which Madson crafted the Establishment Clause when he wrote the 1st Amendment. It’s just three paragraphs but lays out what is meant by religious freedom and why the government cannot take sides in matters of religion.

          • Chet

            Friend, we will never agree on this issue or on one’s need of forgiveness for one’s sins via the true and living God, via his only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary’s Cross. And this is found within God’s Word, the Holy Bible, alone, as none other place offers such…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Have you not enough intellectual curiosity to read Jefferson’s and Madison’s reasoning behind the Establishment Clause? Please don’t shy away for fear it may not be as you want. I really think you will agree with it if you will only read it.

          • Chet

            I’m very satisfied with my understanding, thank you. Moreover, I’ll continue my anthem to “Stand up, Stand Up for Jesus, Ye Soldiers of the Cross”. And do so in the face of liberal secular humanist anti God anti Christ forces of darkness… Daring to be a Daniel is my calling till God leads me otherwise. Jesus saves, and his precious blood can wash the vilest sinner clean, from the guttermost (me) to the uttermost, perhaps yourself… Respectfully, thus ends our communique…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Very well, in that case, have a wonderful life. I’m certainly having one. 😀

          • Chet

            Sir, pardon me please for momentarily backsliding. I haven’t been able to shake your last words regarding you’re having a wonderful life. One can surely appreciate enjoying a wonderful life, especially so one who was fortunate enough to have been born in America. However, at the end of one’s days, say 60-80 years, some longer, many much less, one then ultimately snaps-out into eternity.

            For the prepared (saved) person, he will enter a prepared place of glory, peace, rest and everlasting bliss and dwell in his own personal mansion not made with human hands, in a city whose builder and maker is God.

            For the unprepared, the one who leaves life just as he entered it, regardless of how much joy he once knew, not so any longer. Such one will enter the domain of the damned, the madhouse of humanity where the lost scream hysterically day and night, groping in darkness while writhing in pain and misery without end. And they will do so eternally locked into this region without hope of ever being reprieved or
            pardoned. There, they’ll contemplate what could have been theirs as they could have enjoyed full pardon just as all those who turned to the Christ of Calvary for complete mercy and forgiveness. There, at Calvary’s Cross, their personal SINS could have been washed away, regardless of how rotten they were, as the precious blood of Christ washes even the vilest sinner whiter than snow. But, alas, for any number or personal reasons, perhaps even simple neglect, they would not.

            In Hell, one’s once wonderful life with all its joy and freedom to do as one pleased at will, is forgotten, as one now shrieks in indescribable unending terror in enduring his own never ending fate. All for naught as he didn’t have to go here… We must all choose wisely, Sir…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Hi Chet, you pushed my button with that post.

            For the prepared (saved) person, he will enter a prepared place of glory, peace, rest and everlasting bliss and dwell in his own personal mansion not made with human hands, in a city whose builder and maker is God.

            Well, Chet, that is something Christians and Muslims believe. I am neither. When I was studying world religions in college, I learned that there are some 4,000 religions in the world and the vast majority of adherents to each believe theirs because that is what they were taught to believe from tot-hood. It’s the natural flow of culture.

            And they believe it just a fervently as any Christian believe Christianity. In fact, one cannot distinguish the arguments for the truth of their faith from among any of the others.

            Too, what Christians see in other religious traditions, such as creation stories, as myth, they see Christian creation beliefs as myth and virtually always, one cannot convince the other.

            Besides, no god with any sense of justice and mercy would never sentence a person to eternal torture for the crime of having been taught to believe a different religion or even a person accepting the fact of evolution and doubting religious belief.

            So, what is most important to me is intellectual integrity. I simply cannot suspend what I know, what is logical, what is objectively true about nature, in order to believe unfounded, unjust, illogical, and often incorrect biblical stories. I would be living a lie.

            It is perfectly clear to me that stellar, solar, planetary and biological evolution is true. The preponderance of evidence is overwhelming. Some people compatibilize evolution with creationism, but that, I’ve found, presents serious internal contradictions. Even Intelligent Design–as evolved (diverged) from creationism–is seriously deficient in terms of real science (not following the scientific method).

            As well, the stories in the Old Testament are quite inconsistent with an omnibenevolent god such as suggested by John 3:16. It is astonishing to me that Christian society, today, can be aware of the brutal and bloody carnage of the god of the OT, yet say that “He” was a god of justice, love and mercy.

            In fact, I see the god of Job, for example, as a tempermental, half conscious entity prone to fits of rage when his object of torture demonstrates a greater sense of justice. And then there is the killing of many thousands of innocent people (including children), for no other reason than to show his “signs,” or because they breached his laws even though none were given to them.

            There is much, much more, but that’s enough for now.

            I’m not sure I’ve mentioned this before, but I would have no problem with Christians if they did not push the government to make laws based on their religious beliefs and it’s a constant battle to keep them from doing just that–though they still find a way now and then.

          • Chet

            Christians receive eternal life via God’s great grace and mercy, minus any efforts or so called good works of their own. Not so with “religion” as their adherents must appease the object of their particular faith via good works, and you’ll note many of the sort in the news nowadays, i.e., bombings, knifings, shootings, beheadings, crucifixions, drownings, setting people afire and throwing them off tall bldgs.

            God Almighty, most benevolent and merciful, sends no one to Hell. All unsaved men send themselves to outer darkness in rejecting God’s simple plan of salvation as wrought in Christ and the Cross and his resurrection. No one is predestined to enter there and no one s beyond salvation. No one.

            I do not find my own intellectual integrity to be in contrast to Divine Creation as recorded in the Word. Perhaps due to my having been enlightened via the indwelling Holy Spirit and thus more easily understanding of the Lord’s handiwork.

            You seem to be more at ease in blaming the Lord than in blaming the ever vigilant one whose only function is to kill, steal and destroy all men. And that very wise and ever adaptable convincing entity is none other than the Devil.

            I am aware of the actions as recorded in the OT under God’s Holy Law(s) but I don’t question such nor engender any accusatory feelings about the Creator and his work. It’s just not smart nor beneficial for the clay to find fault with the potter over issues of which he has little understanding, especially when understanding that his own sin nature yet presently resides within him…

            I am unaware of any movement among Christians/Jews to have government’s approval on anything of substance. What I clearly see, especially so within the last 8 years or so is government’s condemnation of God and his Word and his people. How so, in limiting Christians from honoring their Lord and Saviour first and foremnost in their everyday lives. Further, when trashing marriage as God created and defined such, in concert with society’s history, to now include men with men and tomorrow, well, who knows what. And as an intelligent gentleman, you fully know science has clearly proven life begins at conception. And the wanton killing of the unwanted unborn yet carried about in their momma’s womb awaiting God’s predetermined time of birth can never be accepted with the creator of all life. Further, for one to have freedom to read his Holy Bible on his own time and/or pray, is his business, hurting no one. Just as saying Merry Christmas hurts no one at any time. These freedoms are what Christians/Jews see as being little by little eroded by modern haters of God and his Christ and his people… God bless.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            You seem to be more at ease in blaming the Lord than in blaming the ever vigilant one whose only function is to kill, steal and destroy all men. And that very wise and ever adaptable convincing entity is none other than the Devil.

            Chet, that is a completely illogical and absurd statement. One who does not belive in your “Lord” cannot blame “him” for anything. Do you blame horned elephants if a tree near you falls over? Why are you angry with horned elephants?

            I am aware of the actions as recorded in the OT under God’s Holy Law(s) but I don’t question such . . .

            Pardon me, but with all due respect, failing to question is the opposite of intellectual integrity. It is at the very heart of the anti-science movement in fundamentalist America.

            I do not fear questioning virtually any and everything. The following quote I placed at the first page of my novel:

            Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blindfolded fear. (Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, 10 Aug. 1787, Lower case “g” in “god” retained)

          • Chet

            So one can but wonder just where Thomas Jefferson stood with God at his end… And why would one who believes not the very existence of creator God Almighty then care to recite and reprint the words of a man who is in-fact dealing with the Almighty? Hard to figure, no…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            If there is a benevolent god, then Jefferson is living in heaven, if there is a heaven. Still, however, he was a deist and used his brain freely. As I said before, no god of mercy, justice and love would condemn anyone for having been taught to believe a different religion or used reason to ferret out inconsistencies with religious writings.

            And, for that matter, no truly benevolent god would create evil in the first place and then allow its creations to be enticed by their natural urges to entertain whatever the god considers evil.

            Of course, we can get down to real philosophy/reason in considering what would be the attributes of a benevolent god.

          • Chet

            You know the Ten Commandments, specifically, item no. 1. Now, admittedly, I’m no student of world “religions” thus I’ll have to defer to you for such. Do these so-called gods allow worship of anyone or anything beyond themselves? If so, they can’t be to sure of themselves considering they are worshipped as gods, no.

            I thought you mentioned that you were once a Christian or at least attended a church of some sort. That said, you know full well the Almighty did not create evil. Evil. sin, is the result of the Devil and his pride as recorded in Isaiah…

            Honestly, I see the Lord as most benevolent, the epitome of such; loving the unlovely, pardoning the wicked, blessing the undeserving, forgiving and even forgetting the saved sinner’s past. And then welcoming the redeemed into his eternal presence at death. All thanks of course, entirely, to the sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary and his bodily resurrection and living and reigning supreme evermore. All this is a free gift to us believing sinners. How much more benevolent could he possibly be?

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            you know full well the Almighty did not create evil.

            Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

            And, BTW, I consider Christianity a neoZoroastrian religion–a hybrid of Judaism and Zoroastrianism. In Zoroastrianism, Hell does not last forever. After the end of the world and the culmination of the war in heaven, a river of cooling water flows through Hell, the souls then wade across the river, washing away all their sins, and then they enter Paradise (a Persian/Zoroastrian word).

            Joseph Campbell, the late, renowned mythologist, considered religion (including Christianity) to be human constructs–masks which humans place against the ultimate unknowable. Being so, the masks are a reflection of the attitudes and prejudices held by the humans who constructed them.

            One of my theology professor’s said that religion is like an onion, with each layer being ideas borrowed from other religions but including the specific culture’s ideas of good and evil.

            The Noahic flood, for example, was a rewriting of a Sumerian flood myth from (If I remember my research correctly) roughly 800 years prior to the biblical myth. Utnapishtim was the Sumerian “Noah,” and you can read about it in the Gilgamesh Epics.

            I think that is the logical evolution of the verious religions and as such, each religion (including Christianity) has sanctions against wavering from its exclusive dogma.

            However, Zoroastrianism has only three commandments, 1. Have good thoughts (remaining free from temptations of evil), 2. Speak good words, and 3. Do good (good actions). It would be great if it ended right there with “evil” defined as “harm to others.”

            Of course, the devil is in the details–the list of evil things to be avoided, most of which found their way into Judaism and then to Christianity. Interestingly, topping the list is homosexuality (a “crime” that harms no one). And, of course, worshiping all other religions is a sin (each religion must keep its flock together in order to flourish and keep the culture “pure”).

            And BTW, Zoroaster, the founder, is said to have had a virgin birth (as claimed by other religions as well). That was another aspect that found its way into Christianity and likely the trigger for its divergence from Judaism.

          • Chet

            You’ll cite no chapter and verse in the Holy Bible declaring homosexuality to be a the top of any list Friend, you’re not dealing with some fool here as I know my Holy Bible as well as you know side issues of other so called faiths. Your theology professor must’ve taught at some liberal “Christian” college, no.

            There was/is no virgin birth apart from the Lord Jesus Christ… And the Zoroastrianism religion is but another example of a good “works” salvation.

            The evil you referred to was for a specific purpose, perhaps like unto us in our opine of the Great Flood. The Devil himself is evil incarnate and his sole mission is to damn men’s souls to eternal Hell and to discourage and otherwise dishearten and hurt the Christian believers anyway he is allowed to do so. Obviously, we can debate the matter from now till doomsday and humanly speaking, nothing will change. However, the Holy Spirit just may not yet be done with working on you… Just remember your SS and early church training “My Spirit will not always strive with man”…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            I’m afraid that you did not comprehend my last post. Various cultures have placed in their religions the beliefs and prejudices that most concern them.

            I see, as well, that you avoided mention of Isaiah 45:7, which, apparently, you hadn’t read. Your diversion to homosexuality was a dodge–an equivocation.

            So, you say that your god doesn’t create evil. I showed you a verse in “God’s Word” that says he does create evil. What are your thoughts now?

          • Chet

            Simply, that God IS, and that he works his own good will as he sees fit in accomplishing his good will and purpose. Something us sinners cannot possibly comprehend nor appreciate. You conveniently equivocated on a few of my points as well, perhaps for want of time and space sake. Oh well, no harm done… I’ll continue on my way till my Lord takes me Home to dwell with Him eternally. And as I enter that great city, escorted via angelic hosts, once in His presence I shall immediately drop to my knees and humbly bow in thanksgiving and praise and wonder. There, I’ll thank and praise him without end for not dealing with me according to my SINS (voluminous multitudinous) but according to His tender mercies. I’ll fellowship with quite a number I knew who’ve long since made it in even as I get acquainted with giants of the faith, my favorite was John Baptist, the Lord’s cousin and the last of the OT prophets. A man who took a stand, costing him his life… Have a great Labor Day!

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Hmm, if I equivocate, it was not on purpose. About what did I equivocate? Keep in mind that I am not a believer.

            But then, if you were implying by your persistent allusion to biblical text that when in doubt, it is better to believe than to not believe considering the consequences, then I simply assumed my answer would be understood as a rejection of that argument.

            It is a rather famous argument called Pascal’s Wager–believing, even if it is not true, brings no harm, but not believing if it is true will reap eternity in Hell.

            The refutation should be obvious. Which theology? Which god? The one you were taught to believe? Would your god doom to hell the billions who were taught to believe differently?

            Thomas Paine said it well, and I cannot conceive of any good person or good god that would not embrace his belief:

            I believe in the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy. (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, Published in three parts, 1794, 1795, and 1807)

          • Chet

            Pascal’s Wager is entirely correct, bottom line. I have lost absolutely nothing in receiving Christ as my Lord and Savior, but, rather, have gained everything as I’ve been truly blessed to be a Christian in innumerable ways, along with being born American. The unsaved man, in willfully or negligently rejecting Christ will lose more than the mind can even begin to imagine upon snapping-out into eternity.

            As stated previously, God Almighty sends no one to Hell. He’s done all he could possibly do to keep all men out of that awful place. Allowing his only begotten Son to be spit upon, stripped publicly, savagely beaten with a whip numbering 39 lashes from a real man (not some modernist limp wristed sissy) blasphemed, mocked, his sacred head jammed onto with a crown of thorns likened unto nails, only to then be nailed to the Cross and offered vinegar for his parched lips while dying of thirst and unspeakable pain with rejection of his own…. If one were to treat a dog in such fashion he’d be the lowest scum of the Earth and appropriately jailed.

            It’s very clear to me the Almighty has done more than ample to save every sinner man that’s ever lived regardless of his deeds. All one need do is repent and receive Christ into one’s own heart, personally. No good works required nor accepted. It’s all Grace, meaning, God’s unmerited favor. What more would could one possibly recommend?

            And how do the gods you allude to deal with those who reject him/her?

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Unfortunately, as I said, logically that Pascal’s Wager is a bad argument and has been thoroughly refuted. No one can KNOW with certainty that he has the true religion just as no one can know with certainty that do gods exist. The preponderance evidence tends to no gods. I’m sure you will disagree, but I’m speaking logically.

            According to your Bible, your god did indeed create a hell. And, according to your Bible, all who were taught to believe differently, are going to Hell. And still you say that “He” is a loving, just and merciful god. I told you a bit of the Zoroastrian theology. Ahura Mazda is their main god. He is more just than Yahweh because he punishes no one forever. Of course, I don’t believe in either one, but I’m just pointing out that so many of the actions of Yahweh in the OT were anything but just, loving and merciful.

            Christians recoil in cognitive dissonance when their belief comes in contact with the actual stories of the bloody carnage perpetrated often on a whim and almost always contrary to what we believe, today, to be greatly unjust and immoral.

            So, here is a rather pertinent question (a paraphrasing of Plato’s famous question); Does God do what is moral and good because it is the moral and good thing to do, or are the things God does moral and good because God does them?

            And how do the gods you allude to deal with those who reject him/her?

          • Chet

            It appears we’ve carried our discussion about as far as it can reasonably go. Thanks for the opportunity to share the love of God via His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ of Calvary. And again, God bless.

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Very well. I agree. Be well my friend.

  • Chet

    Gentlemen, politely tell Mikey to go pack sand and continue on as you were… You have nothing to fear but fear itself as these people are but paper tigers… Jesus saves!

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      LOL! Now that’s what I call a barrage of Clichés. Good to see some humor here. 😀

      BTW, In which bank does Jesus save?

      • Chet

        These particular complainers, Mikey, nor anyone else need be feared. “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell” Matthew 10:28, Holy Bible.

        Funny you should mention a bank and I cannot answer to such but there is an absolute reference to one putting his money in such a place so as to gain usury/interest as opposed to simply hiding it in the ground and gaining nothing.

        The only saving I know of that the Lord Jesus Christ does is the saving of men’s eternal lost souls in their repentance and faith in his work of laying down his life willingly on all sinner’s behalf on Calvary’s cruel barbaric Cross. He effected the payment for all men’s sins in doing just that act, in concert with his subsequent bodily resurrection. And he didn’t have to do so but did it all in love for us sinners…

        Respectfully, I’ve never quite figured out why, in the case of those who don’t even believe Christ exists, make an issue out of it. Let alone be concerned with the record that he created the worlds, the constellation and all else. Therefore, why does such an one get the least bit animated over nothing. Sorta like myself being angered or have my feelings hurt (such as the snowflake warriors who whined about the harmless open Word) regarding someone merely discussing ghosts. I’d just simply walk on and in the case of an open magazine of ghosts and their spooky appearances, just summarily dismiss it all as nonsense and keep moving. Why make a stink outta nothing?

        And I know the answer to my own question. Those who say they do not believe God’s Word must often state their position in one manner or another to continuously keep doubt alive lest faith should just happen well up and cause them internal strife distress… This is but one of the Devil’s practices…

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Geez, no humor.

          LOL! You are correct. I will state my beliefs. So, let me inform you of my demonic beliefs:

          I believe in individual freedom of speech, individual freedom of conscience, and equal standing under the Constitution in matters religious belief (or none at all).

          In the U.S., a Muslim has the same standing under law as the Christian and the atheist.

          I do not believe corporations have the rights of individual citizens.

          I would have no argument at all if fundamentalist Christianity did not make its way into politics in an effort to make laws designed to force all of society to bend to Christian beliefs.

          I believe in live and let live. Christians are not being attacked when the government prevents them from interference in the legal lifestyles or practices of others. The Government (ALL of its agents) may not be in the business of promoting in any way, any particular religion or religious belief unless that belief coincides with secular reason.

          • Chet

            An atheist is an atheist 7/24 x 365. So too, is a Christian and as one is sworn into the military there is nary a word that he swears or affirms to whereby the member is instructed and/or agrees to check his faith, wherever placed, at the proverbial door… And Mikey knows this…

          • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

            Yes, and that goes for Muslims and atheists as well. In the military, you have right to attend schools, churches, synagogues, or mosques (if available) on military bases on your own time and engage others in religious conversation or debate as well. That is as it should be IF you are not a commanding officer on duty and making religious statements to subordinates. Leave that to ISIS.

            I don’t understand why that is so difficult to understand.

      • Theo

        One in which you have no interest. 😀

        • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

          Ah, so this is a no humor zone. 😀

  • gramma aac

    “,,,violation of USAF regulations and bedrock Constitutional law”

    WHAT USAF regulations and what “Constitutional law”? Does Mikey Weinstein think an open Bible violates first amendment rights?

    • http://maxfurr.com HobbesianWorld

      WHAT USAF regulations and what “Constitutional law”? Does Mikey Weinstein think an open Bible violates first amendment rights?

      Actually, it’s the other way around. The Constitution is the bedrock of USAF regulations and all other laws in this nation in the sense that no law may contradict the Constitution.

      I’m sure you will disagree, but the Establishment Clause is the primary law that prevents officers from displaying their religious beliefs just as it prevents public school teachers from posting religious material around their classrooms or a judge from having the Ten Commandments posted to the front of his bench (or on a monument on government property–ala Roy Moore).

      So, a Bible, a Quran, a Satanic Bible, and even Dawkins’ The God Delusion, as a permanent statement of faith or no faith on the desk of a superior officer, an agent of the U.S. government, most certainly is forbidden under the Constitution.