Churches Seek Exemption From Massachusetts Law Allowing Men in Women’s Restrooms

Bible Church pdBOSTON, Mass. — Four churches in Massachusetts have filed a legal challenge against a new state law requiring the allowance of men who identify as women to use womens’ restrooms and vice versa, contending that they should be exempt from the mandate under the First Amendment.

Horizon Christian Fellowship in Fitchburg, Abundant Life Church in Swansea, House of Destiny Ministries in Southbridge and Faith Christian Fellowship in Haverhill are all a part of the suit, filed on Tuesday against the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination and Attorney General Maura Healey.

According to reports, the Commission recently released guidelines about compliance with the new public restroom rules, which were signed into law by Gov. Charlie Baker in July and went into effect on Oct. 1.

“[E]ven a church could be seen as a place of public accommodation if it holds a secular event, such as a spaghetti supper, that is open to the general public,” the Commission wrote.

Healey has also stated that the law could apply to churches in certain instances.

But the religious liberties organization Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), which is representing the congregations in court, says that it is wrong for the government to decide what churches can and cannot do on their property.

“The legislature and MCAD failed to provide an exemption for religious institutions, nor did MCAD attempt to define the ‘secular activities’ that it believed might subject a church to the Act, other than the woefully inadequate and confusing ‘spaghetti supper’ test,” it wrote in its legal complaint. “Indeed, MCAD expressly stated that it would not provide an objective standard, but would review a charge ‘involving religious institutions or religious exemptions…on a case-by-case-basis.'”

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“Thus, a pastor, other church leader, or a court must guess as to which of the church’s activities subject it to the severe sanctions of the Act, which include fines of $50,000 per violation, up to 365 days in jail, and attorneys’ fees,” ADF said.

The law additionally bans places of public accommodation from making statements with the intent “to discriminate” or to “incite” others to be discriminatory, which ADF says could affect Sunday sermons.

“The government shouldn’t encroach on the internal, religious practices of a church,” said ADF Senior Counsel Steve O’Ban. “Neither the commission nor the attorney general has the constitutional authority to dictate how any church uses its facility or what public statements a church can make concerning a deeply held religious belief, such as on human sexuality.”

“All events held at a church on its property have a religious purpose, and the government has no authority to violate the First Amendment’s guarantees of freedom of religion and speech,” also remarked ADF Legal Counsel Christiana Holcomb. “Government officials have no business determining which church activities are religious and which ones aren’t.”

While Healey’s office has not commented specifically on the suit, spokeswoman Jillian Fennimore issued a statement applauding the new law.

“We are pleased that we finally have a law in place that protects transgender people from discrimination in public places,” she said. “This law is about civil rights and is critical for people who were without full protection and equality under the law for too long.”

ADF is seeking an injunction against the enforcement of the statute while the case moves forward in court.


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  • Reason2012

    So notice the hypocritical logic they use:

    If you’re a man who only FEELS like a woman, even though you still have male genitalia, it’s “discrimination” to make him use the bathroom with other men.

    But if you’re REALLY a BIOLOGICAL woman (who obviously also FEELS like a woman, btw), then it’s NOT discrimination to make her use the bathroom with other men who will now walk in on her, both in bathrooms and locker rooms.

    Behold the hypocrisy of their “discrimination” lies.

    They want to discriminate against everyone else in the name of stopping discrimination. They are discriminating against and endangering everyone else by enabling_perverts, predators and_pedophiles.

    These activists who push these agendas do not care for the LGBT people – they proved it when they rush to defend islam / sharia law when 50 LGBT were killed by yet another person following islam / sharia law. This is nothing but using LGBT to attack Christianity and normalcy.

    Contact your representatives about the REAL discrimination: forcing 100% of women and little girls to use the bathroom with men who will walk in on them in bathrooms and locker rooms.

    • Bob Johnson

      But you will be perfectly happy if Chastity Bono walks into the women’s bathroom?

      • Reason2012

        If a person has male genitals, then feel free to use the men’s room.
        If a person has female genitals, then feel free to use the lady’s room.
        Has worked for ages.

        • Fur Hunter

          HEY!….Reason 2012….Do you not understand that transgender folks did not just happen in the last year? They have been around using the public bathrooms for decades. Get it? Has there ever been any uproar about it before? NOooooo. Because it wasn’t an issue before. Get it? It was never an issue until the Republicans didn’t like the Supreme Court decision on Gay Marriage. Get it? All this stupidity is a backlash against that decision. Get it????

          • Reason2012

            // Do you not understand that transgender folks did not just happen in the last year? They have been around using the public bathrooms for decades. //

            Thank you for proving my point: In other words, keep doing what you’ve been doing and no laws are necessary and no forcing it on anyone else by rules necessary. Go get your surgery, go dress like one like you’ve been doing “for decades”.

            // Has there ever been any uproar about it before? NOooooo. Because it wasn’t an issue before. //

            So stop making an uproar by trying to instead pass laws when “there has never been an uproar before”.

            Thank you for proving my point.

          • Amos Moses

            been around since Moses ……….. so what ……… it has always been an issue …. depravity is not new ……

        • Fur Hunter

          Reason2012……I may be wasting my breath here, since I doubt you will understand what I am about to write, but I will try and give you an education quickly. Transgender folks ARE NOT drag queens!!! Get it? They ARE NOT cross dressing men. Get it? Many transgender folks have had an operation to change their sexuality. Get it? Read the story of Geroge Jorgensen, back in the 1950s, who became Christine Jorgensen. Maybe you will learn something. But alas…I know you are to damn lazy to do it and find out. Your loss and your continued ignorance. Get it?

          • Reason2012

            // but I will try and give you an education quickly. Transgender folks ARE NOT drag queens!!! They ARE NOT cross dressing men. //

            Please tell me how you prove the difference, to keep ‘drag queens’ who, as you admit are still men, from going into women’s rest rooms.

            Secondly, as soon as these people prove they really had surgery, then have at it. Most have NOT had surgery but still demand to be treated like the opposite_sex.

            // Many transgender folks have had an operation to change their sexuality. //

            False.

            “only 33 percent of transgender people have reported undergoing some form of gender-confirming surgery,”

            Look it up.

            But glad we seem to agree: if you do not go through the physical attempt at change, then just claiming you are a female is not enough.

          • Fur Hunter

            Reason2012…….So what do you propose? A guard at every bathroom door to look down women’s dresses or men’s pants to see if they have a penis or not? And excuse me, but don’t put words out there that I DID NOT say! I said ‘MANY’…I did not say most or all.. People who twist what others say to suit their agenda totally disgust me. And if you didn’t know it, transgender folks have been using public bathrooms for decades and there have been no problems. Not till the Republicans did a backlash against the Supreme Court decision on Gay Marriage did you hear anything about transgender issues. Wake up and smell the coffee. Open your eyes to the truth.

          • Amos Moses

            Understand this …………. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways ….. if that does not describe the transvestite/gender confused/body dysmorphic person …… i do not know what does …………

          • Fur Hunter

            Amos……Understand this. Your post just showed how ignorant and uneducated you are regarding this issue. Need I say more?

          • Amos Moses

            so all you have is ad hominem ……….. transvestites/gender confusion/body dymorphia are not new ….. and they are just as destructive to the person as they ever were …..

          • Fur Hunter

            Sorry Amos, but I don’t carry on discussions with people who are deliberately ignorant and uneducated because they are too lazy to do the research and find out the actual facts on a subject. It is a total waste of time. Go talk with others like yourself and continue the ignorance. All of you will remain knowledgeable for the rest of your lives. It is sad. I actually feel sorry for you. And by the way, those of us who know the actual facts about the subject are laughing at you and how ignorant you are.

          • Amos Moses

            “but I don’t carry on discussions with people who are deliberately ignorant and uneducated because they are too lazy to do the research and find out the actual facts on a subject”

            So it would seem you do not talk to yourself …………….

          • Amos Moses

            You have no actual “facts” …. you have a pseudo-science that is not replicable and therefore not science or fact ……………

      • Fur Hunter

        Bob…….First off, it is evident that Reason 2012 will never get it, that transgender folks have been around for decades and have been using the bathrooms without a problem. Second….your post here has me on the floor roaring with laughter. Totally, totally funny. Keep up the good work. I love your posts.

        • Bob Johnson

          Okay, relax, time for a timeout – go listen to The Kinks 1970 version of “Lola”

          (available free via the Internet)

          • Fur Hunter

            Bob….I remember it and know it…….’Girls will be boys and boys will be girls……..L..O..L…A…Lola!” Lovin’ it!

      • Fur Hunter

        Bob….I just gave Reason2012 a quick lesson regarding transgender, but I doubt he/she will get it. Sad. The ignorance in the country astounds me, especially when all the facts are at everyone’s fingertips on the computer. But they are too damn lazy to do the research.

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Allowing men in women’s restrooms is anti-truth. America should not endanger women and children by mixing men and women in restrooms.

    • uninvitedguest

      Nobody is being endangered…lol. You need to worry about your own country.

      • Grace Kim Kwon

        You are programmed not to care about women and children’s safety since childhood. I feel USA is my homeland because I love American Puritans very much. True heroes of Planet Earth. You are Non-American and have no rights to silence me.

        • uninvitedguest

          You are just ignorant. Wierd that ive cared for ill and dying children for twenty years, have two wonderful daughters and a loving wife and you accuse me of not caring about women and children? Get a firm grip on reality….you need it. You are the non American here. I fought for my country while in the Army for 8 yrs, and you call me non American? Flagged

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Because you insult Christians, the creators of USA. You should oppose the placement of men in the women’s washroom, if you are a real man. USA is not a poor nation. Today’s America is suffering from boredom and that’s why they are doing this against its own people.

          • RWH

            Interesting how a “non-white” person from another part of the world–who knows absolutely nothing about American culture and how Americans think–supports white supremacist and those who used religion to persecute others. The Salem witchcraft trials demonstrate the evils of a “state church,” and supporting white Christian pioneers.

            My suggestion is that you try to fix the problems in your own country and stop passing judgment on things you know nothing about.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You guys are Non-American parasites from the outer space occupying the territory. The Western civilization hunted witches because they killed human children and sold their body parts like Planned Parenthood is doing. Today you worship the witches. USA has no conscience apart from Christianity. The liberals are well-dressed savages.

          • RWH

            It is painfully obvious that you are totally ignorant about American culture and history. For a non-white outsider to American culture, you are certainly infatuated with white supremacist ideologies. You know absolutely nothing about the atrocities perpetrated against the blacks, the orientals, and the American Indians of days gone by. You might think differently if you were one of the Japanese that were rounded up during World War II. The people you so admire would have no problems abusing you and denying you your rights. But, go ahead and be stupid.

          • Amos Moses

            ” For a non-white outsider to American culture,”

            WOW …. Racism ….. nationalism ….. anti-multiculturalism ….. intolerence …. bigotry …. hatred of others “not like me” ……….. AGAIN ….. WOW ……

            ” The people you so admire would have no problems abusing you and denying you your rights.”

            YEAH …. just like you just did ………………. AGAIN …… WOW !!!!!!!!!! …………

            Hypocrisy much ?????????????? ……………

          • Amos Moses

            “The Salem witchcraft trials demonstrate the evils of a “state church,” and supporting white Christian pioneers.”

            Gee, when was that exactly ………. and how many actually died …..

            The Salem witch trials were a series of hearings and prosecutions of people accused of witchcraft in colonial Massachusetts between February 1692 and May 1693. The trials resulted in the executions of twenty people, fourteen of them women, and all but one by hanging. Five others (including two infant children) died in prison.

            So before the US became anything ….. and at best 20-25 died ….. more people died on the freeway in the last 5 minutes …………. but keep pulling up that old canard ………… maybe someone will care one day ……………

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Exactly! Some people define the entire Americans of 400 years by the Westboro. It is as partial as that.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Even ONE person being executed for being a witch is too many. Where is your outrage over this? You excuse it as no big deal compared to people dying in accidents. Where is your compassion?!

            BTW: Amos………… would you please ……..get your period key……… fixed? It seems to be ……..sticking………

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The Western civilization killed millions of Bible translators and Bible readers and Bible-believing Christians. Innocent women killed as witches are very few comparing to the people who got killed for the Holy Bible. The casuality of scientists is grand zero. Western civilization is the only civilization that struggled for the access to the Truth; no other civilizations did, except for ancient Israel. Innocent women are made suffer and get murdered throughout the world; white Christian missionaries rescued them. Secularists view such human suffering and deadly barbarism as a culture and do not care.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Where are you getting all these ideas? They are wrong. You are being misled.

            Have you been to see the doctor yet, about the evil spirits you think are in the T.V. ? If you think I’m wrong about you needing to see a doctor, please at least get another opinion from someone. Anyone. Please.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            No, you are educated wrongly. These are historic facts from the secular history books. Secular Westerners are educated wrong and misled about their own history and the world history. Scholars know these are facts. They just don’t talk about it.

          • Amos Moses

            “Even ONE person being executed for being a witch is too many.”

            Why? ….. and that was not the only reason … but we were not there … and we may not like that they were executed …. but it was a different time …. is it not intolerant to judge such things ….

          • TwoRutRoad

            So what if it was a different time!!! Religion has ALWAYS been said to have the only true source of morality, but they got it wrong. If they can’t get it right every time, what are the good for? Not….one….thing…..

          • Amos Moses

            “Religion has ALWAYS been said to have the only true source of morality, but they got it wrong.”

            No, religion has not said that ….. there are only two religions …. every other one says “do this, do that and you are saved” ….. christianity, and only christianity, says “it is done” …. there is nothing for you to do …. it is already done … fallible men sometimes follow fallible men …. and they are wrong …… the reason given for the trials may have been witchcraft …. there may have been other factors ….. it is an isolated incidence …. and it is not part of christianity to kill witches and sinners …..

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I know USA well. I read American books and I met numerous good Christian Americans throughout my life. You are Non-American. The Western civilization hunted witches because they killed human children and sold their body parts like Planned Parenthood is doing now. Today the witches are elevated above everyone else. USA has no conscience or education apart from the Christian Church. White Christian pioneers created the USA. Get out of USA if you don’t like them. Things belong to the makers and inventors and pioneers. Repent of your sin to get saved. (John ch.3) My mother countries and fatherland are suffering from the atheism because of USA’s immorality.

          • RWH

            Grace, you may have read books, but your ignorance of American history is absolutely mind staggering. There was no evidence of anyone killing human children in Salem. Americans have learned to keep religion outside of politics because we saw the evils of having a state church that persecuted nonconformists, such as what happened with the Puritans. If your country has suffered from atheism, blame it on your own people and not outsiders. Americans are sick and tired of helping people from other countries, only to have them bite us in the hand–such as what you are doing here. You think America is a bad place; don’t come live here then. Stay in your own country and solve your own problems, and take responsibility for your own problems instead of blaming us.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Americans are mainly the descendants of the British. Witches kill children like Planned Parenthood does. The methods and purposes differ around the world but the source is the same – demon worships. Sacrificial Western Christian missionaries rescued both the children and the innocent women and all the people from the savage practices by teaching us about the one true living God and His Son Jesus Christ. Americans always lived centered around the freedom to worship God acording to the Word of God and one’s own clear conscience; for that, separation of denominations and state was necessary. Americans of yesteryears just never imagined that Americans would become Anti-christians after 200 years from independence.

            The world is suffering partially because of USA’s godlessness since sometime in the 1980’s because USA gave up her unconditional goodness but still controls everything. USA has changed as she tasted the blood money and got drugged. Americans are not respected anymore because Americans don’t respect the nations’ white Christian pioneers and the culture is greedy and hopelessly immoral. USA and Western Europe are the only nations in the world that scorns their own builders. Other nations don’t do such suicidal evil things. It is dishonoring the good parents.

            Today’s Westerners hate their own forefathers because yesteryears’ Westerners were all Christian but they want to stay immoral against the values of their grandfathers. USA must stop forcing homosexuality upon the world because the world should never be enslaved to the rich powerful Western pervs. Never again. American fathers taught the world not to submit to villains. You know nothing about the American legacies because you got false education from the liberals and are too young and didn’t read the Holy Bible or American books. I belong to USA because I love USA more than the Non-Americans living there. USA rescued my mother countries; favor has to be returned.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            #2: Americans slander their own finest Christian forefathers and Christian ancestors by getting false education, living in the luxury that is a result of their hard-working Christian forefathers. Anyone can be successful in a well-established system like the Christian USA. The pioneers are the heroes. Don’t get shocked if the world does not express gratitude to the USA. You are not thankful to God or remember anything about the Christian British, either. Ingratitude returns to ungrateful people. The Earthlings now think Americans do everything for evil gain. I really feel sorry for the sacrificial US soldiers who defend the world’s human rights and freedom. (That also is changing as USA is changing into a huge Sodom.) That’s part of the reasons I write here.

          • Amos Moses

            “You are just ignorant. Wierd that ive cared for ill and dying children for twenty years, have two wonderful daughters and a loving wife ”

            And yet you fail to understand the position and danger they are being put in ….. and when your daughter or wife, God Forbid, has something happen ….. and she asks you why, why do you support having a man in a public bathroom when you told her that your home bathroom is a private space with a lock for her privacy ….. your answer will be ……………………..

            Yeah ….. utter silence on your part ….. or just spouting a lie about how it is “okay” …………

  • bowie1

    Perhaps it should be invitation only when it comes to activities not directly associated with church programs and not open to the general public. I assume it would not apply to the church services itself and its own programs?

  • Leslie Gray

    Given the ever increasing volumes of modern medical research data in support of transgender identity, and the scriptural admonitions against mistreatment of the poor and needy, it seems to me that the Christian community should take a very close look at that evidence and make sure that they are actually acting in accordance with scripture and not merely following an agenda of exclusion and hate based on profiteering on the suffering of those less fortunate.

    Think about these words in Matthew 25.

    For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

    For it is routinely the fate of transgender teens to be turned out of their homes by their own families without benefit of training or the ability to care for themselves in any legitimate manner.

    • Tower of Power

      That parable has NOTHING to do with psychotic people who choose to have their bodies mutilated and pumped full of hormones. The Christian thing to do to psychotics is to cure them. There is no Christian mandate to pretend that a man who dressed up as a woman really is a woman. Christianity prizes the truth, not deceit.

      There’s an easy way to be treated as normal: Be normal. Doesn’t cost one cent, doesn’t require doctor visits.

    • Amos Moses

      Think about these words in Matthew 19

      19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
      19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
      19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

      Nothing there about anything BUT male and female ….. and an admonition to NOT put it asunder ………………..

      “For it is routinely the fate of transgender teens to be turned out of their homes by their own families without benefit of training or the ability to care for themselves in any legitimate manner.”

      And scripture says to do just that …. if the child is not obeying their parents ….. then why are they there ….. if they want to go their own way and act as they want to act …. then they are to do it ON THEIR OWN ……….

      5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
      5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
      5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

      • Kevin R McCoy

        You have serious issues. I think you watch too much pornography.

        • Amos Moses

          Ad hominem….. nothing more ….

        • The Lady Chardonnay

          That’s called “projection,” little boy.

      • Leslie Gray

        There are numerous problems with attitudes toward women and children in the Bible as a result of changes in social attitudes. It is nolonger legal to sell off children into slavery. It is nolonger acceptable to have a rebellious child stoned to death as it was in ancient times. Societal views change as time passes and our laws change right along with the changes in those views. Once there are laws against those old biblical attitudes the Bible requires followers to adhere to the laws laid down by earthly authority.

        Romans 13:1 – 2 NIV

        1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

        There are many medical conditions that were not understood and technological advancements that simply did not exist in biblical times. Times change. People change. And the circumstances of life change right along with those changes.

        There is no basis in fact to declare being transgender as a mental health condition, since the mental health community nolonger does so itself. Oh, that is unless you happen to be Paul McHugh and his for hire fraudulent study mill.

        • Amos Moses

          Levitical Law And slavery

          Anyone who used the bible to justify slavery in America only showed their ignorance of the bible and levitical slavery.

          Slaves had protections. Biblical slavery is not the same as modern slavery. Exodus 21 spells out how a slave must be kept and cared for during his servitude.

          If a person was sold into slavery, the money went to THE SLAVE to settle the slaves debts.

          Slaves were not allowed to work on the sabbath.

          Slaves were to be released every six years. At the end of six years, the master was required to give the slave enough funds to establish a new life.

          If after six years they wanted to stay they had to be released every 50 years during the jubilee.

          If the slave wanted to stay they were required to appear before he a priest and declare they wanted to remain a slave and have a nail driven through their ear. There was no compulsion. They had to publicly declare it.

          Slavery was an option for those in debt or in poverty.

          If the slave ran away it was against the law to return a slave to the master. There were sanctuary cities established.

          In Exodus 21:16, it is against the law to kidnap a man and making him a slave or to even be found with him is punishable by death.
          21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

          • Leslie Gray

            Regardless, slavery was once legal and many conservative Christians used the bible to condone the practice of slavery. Those same people also used the bible to prove that black people were racially inferior to white people.

          • Amos Moses

            And they were wrong and will answer for it …. as well as every non-christian and A-theist who did exactly the same and used constitutional law and SCOTUS rulings ………..

          • Leslie Gray

            I see that you have your knickers in a twist over the fact that SCOTUS struck down all of the bans against marriage equality.

          • Amos Moses

            They ignored the law to do what they did … including the constitution …… and every dissenting justice said that is what they did ………… it is not equality ….. it is the destruction of society ……….. hope it makes them “feel good” about themselves ….. cause that is the only thing that is important ………..

          • Leslie Gray

            SCOTUS acted well within the law. Tradition alone is not a reason to cling to an act that is obviously discriminatory.

          • Amos Moses

            “Tradition alone is not a reason to cling to an act that is obviously discriminatory.”

            Yep … the exact thing they are going to say to legalize pedophilia ………. good one …. HRC has said that very thing …………..

            “The state should no longer be allowed to assume the rationality of regulations based upon age and should at least be required to justify its actions on the basis of modern legislative and administrative findings.” ~ Hillary Rodham, The Harvard Education Review, 1973, “Children Under the Law”

            so the tradition of AGE is not sufficient …. welcome to the pedophiles ………… destroying society and childrens lives ….. GOT IT ……..

          • ShemSilber

            It seems that they will also “excuse” in turn, bestiality, necrophilia, and whatever other perversion that they would push for, totally ignoring the example that was set in the case of Sodom & Gomorrah and their suburbs (Genesis 19), or else thinking this was a phony story and nobody was ever punished like that for these perversions.

            All of this and any other evil will be wiped off the face of the earth at our Master Yahushua’s (Lord Jesus’) return to rule from Jerusalem, ISRAEL, and we will live perpetually and without end of life in peace and productivity under our Master Yahushua’s rule (Isaiah 1:1-4; Micah 4:1-4), omein!

          • Leslie Gray

            Yeah. It never takes you sanctimonious types very long to make accusations of pedophilia. What’s that about? Are you folks committing a Freudian Slip and confessing your secret desires?

          • Amos Moses

            Yep … it never takes you deniers of truth to deny the agenda …………. pedophilia is on the agenda ….. and it does not take rocket science to figure it out …… HRC said what she said …. she still believes it … and you will gullibly follow along as your statement has demonstrated ……..

          • Leslie Gray

            Don’t you people ever get tired of spinning things around to match your agenda? Hillary Clinton was a public defender at the time that she was asked by a judge and a prosecutor to take the case defending an indigent man from a repugnant crime. She did her job and the case fell apart due to contradictory testimony.

            I can hardly wait to see what happens to Trump due to his rape case involving a 13 year old girl and known pedophile Jeffery Epstein. And, then there are all of the rest of Trumps victims, including those minor girls that he ogled back stage at beauty pageants when Trump owned Miss Universe. Where’s your outrage over those actions?

          • Amos Moses

            keep telling yourself that …………

          • ShemSilber

            As stated below to Brother Amos Moses:

            “It seems that they will also ‘excuse’ in turn, bestiality, necrophilia, and whatever other perversion that they would push for, totally ignoring the example that was set in the case of Sodom & Gomorrah and their suburbs (Genesis 19), or else thinking this was a phony story and nobody was ever punished like that for these perversions.

            “All of this and any other evil will be wiped off the face of the earth at our Master Yahushua’s (Lord Jesus’) return to rule from Jerusalem, ISRAEL, and we will live perpetually and without end of life in peace and productivity under our Master Yahushua’s rule (Isaiah 1:1-4; Micah 4:1-4), omein!”

            And I add, “Omein! Even so come, Master Yahushua!” to show us the way out of this corrupted mess that we have made, omein!

          • Leslie Gray

            Merely, start telling the truth instead of making up so many lies and your problems will be solved. I am not interested in hearing about your secret desires.

          • Amos Moses

            Here are 10 interesting and important nuggets of wisdom from Kinchlow’s “Black Yellowdogs:”

            1. The first official legal slaveholder in the American colonies was Anthony Johnson, a black man.In 1654 Johnson took his black indentured servant, John Casor, to court, alleging he had actually purchased Casor as a slave who was meant to serve Johnson for life. The court ruled in Johnson’s favor, and as Kinchlow noted, this appeared to be the first legal sanction of slavery, except as punishment for a crime, in the English New World colonies.
            In fact, black ownership of slaves was not uncommon in the early part of U.S. history. According to the 1830 U.S. Census, of the 10,689 free blacks living in New Orleans, more than 3,000 were slave masters.

            2. The Republican Party was founded on opposition to slavery.It was a group of likeminded citizens in Wisconsin who formed a new political party in 1854 for the express purpose of stopping the spread of slavery into the federal territories. Of the 17 planks in the early Republican Party platform, seven directly or indirectly called for the abolition of slavery.

            3. The so-called “Radical Republicans” were considered radical because they favored not only the abolition of slavery, but complete equality for the newly freed slaves.Kinchlow noted the 1860s were long before the days of political correctness. The “Radical Republicans” had very little to gain by supporting the rights of ex-slaves to full citizenship. Moreover, it was a racist Democratic president, Andrew Johnson, who repeatedly rejected congressional Republicans’ attempts to assist the freed slaves.

            4. In the immediate post-Civil War years, some Democrats did not believe a black man was capable of writing a good speech.Black congressman Robert Brown Elliott, R-S.C., once debated several Democratic opponents over a civil rights bill on the floor of the U.S. House. Democrats could not refute his argument on its merits, so they charged that Elliott had not actually written his floor speech. They argued a Negro by himself “could accomplish nothing of literary excellence.”

            5. Almost 30 percent of Ku Klux Klan victims were white.The Klan targeted white Republicans for being “n—– lovers” who wanted to help blacks secure their constitutionally guaranteed rights. Meanwhile, the KKK became a significant Democratic constituency group, helping to elect legislators, sheriffs, judges and mayors who went on to become Klan members.

            6. Democrats, either by filibuster or committee, never allowed a single federal anti-lynching measure to become law.When the House passed an anti-lynching bill in 1922, southern Democrats killed it, arguing it was unconstitutional because it interfered with state and local authority. House Democrats also filibustered to death anti-lynching measures in 1937 and 1940.

            7. In the 1876 presidential election, 99 percent of blacks voted Republican.Black Democrats were so rare that one congressman mentioned his encounter with one the Congressional Record in 1868. Meanwhile, 90 percent of blacks voted Democrat in the 2000 election.

            8. A majority of blacks actually agree with Republicans on many public policy issues.Kinchlow reported a majority of blacks supported school prayer, education vouchers, faith-based initiatives, the death penalty, and English as the official U.S. language. Meanwhile, polls indicated a majority of blacks opposed same-sex “marriage,” the legalization of pot and even race-based affirmative action.

            9. The NAACP sued then-Gov. Bill Clinton in 1989 for violating the federal Voting Rights Act of 1965.A three-judge panel in Arkansas ordered Clinton to redraw electoral districts to allow blacks greater voting strength. This was the man considered “our first black president.”

            10. Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 at greater rates than Democrats did.This was true in both the House and Senate. House Republicans out-supported Democrats on the Civil Rights Act 81 to 60 percent and on the Voting Rights Act 85 to 80 percent. Senate Republicans out-supported Democrats on the Civil Rights Act 82 to 60 percent and on the Voting Rights Act 97 to 74 percent.

          • Leslie Gray

            Very good. How long did it take you to copy and paste that?

          • Amos Moses

            why does that make a difference …………

          • Leslie Gray

            I was just curious if you really understand anything you pasted up, since you’re having so much trouble with the differences between dysmorphia and dysphoria.

          • Amos Moses

            so ad hominem and no real rebuttal …. like i said …. it is all you have to say when you GOT NOTHING ………..

          • Leslie Gray

            So quick to run and hide behind an accusation of an ad hominem attack whenever anyone says anything you dislike. Regardless of whether there was any attack at all. Typical.

          • Amos Moses

            not an accusation ….. it is pointing out what you said ….

          • Leslie Gray

            What, that I doubt what you did for that 20 period of time you claim to have been in medicine? Alright then, what did you do?

          • Amos Moses

            BTW …. never used the word dysphoria ……….. to my knowledge …………

          • Leslie Gray

            No, you did not use the term dysphoria. You rather incorrectly insinuated the use of the term dysmorphia into your remarks in an attempt to deflect from a much more accurate diagnostic term. BDD is dysmorpic in nature, when the correct term is dysphoria. The accurate use of diagnostic terms is vital.

          • Amos Moses

            Nope ……. Dysmorphia is what the DSM-V calls it and if you have a problem with a source you would quote …. as you put more trust in that than scripture ….. then you should take it up with the source …. The DSM …………..

          • Leslie Gray

            No. You want it to be BDD. What transgender people really have is Gender Dysphoria.

            Gender Dysphoria DSM-5 302.85 (F64.9)

            Symptoms of Gender Dysphoria

            DSM-5 states that the initial condition for the identification of gender dysphoria in both adults and teenagers is a noticeable incongruence between the gender the patient believes they are, and what society perceives them to be. This disparity should be ongoing for at least 6 months and should consist of 2 or more of the subsequent criteria (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):

            Noticeable incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves are, and what their classified gender assignment
An intense need to do away with his or her primary or secondary sex features (or, in the case of young teenagers, to avert the maturity of the likely secondary features)
An intense desire to have the primary or secondary sex features of the other gender
A deep desire to transform into another gender
A profound need for society to treat them as another gender
A powerful assurance of having the characteristic feelings and responses of the other gender
The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress, or affects the individual significantly socially, at work, and in other import areas of life.

            Epidemiology

            The DSM-5 indicates that the prevalence of gender dysphoria is 0.005-0.014% for adult born as males, whereas it is 0.002-0.003% for adult born as females (American Psychiatric Publishing, 2013). Among children, it is higher in those born as boys, where it is 2-4.5 times greater than those born as girls. Among teenagers, there is no real difference, between males and females.

            Prognosis

            Current case reports offer no evidence that psychotherapy offers total and long-standing about face of cross-gender identity. It is important to state that all transsexuals are not the same, and thus are not part of a uniform group. Early diagnosis and treatment decreases the chance for individuals to suffer depression, emotional agony, and to attempt suicide. It is equally significant to state that gender dysphoria is not identical to homosexuality. Each individual goes through a unique change, some may want a short-term change, and be content with cross-dressing, while others may desire a complete change, and seek gender assignment surgery (Royal College of Psychiatrists, 2013). Those who are born having ambiguous genitalia may meet the criteria for the identification of gender dysphoria.

            Treatment for Gender Dysphoria

            Fortunately treatment options exist that are beneficial for gender dysphoria, and these consist of psychotherapy, pharmacologic therapy, as well as other nonpharmacologic therapies, and sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) (Royal College of Psychiatrists, 2013). Professionals are changing pessimistic attitudes regarding SRS, plus more scientific evidence has shown the benefit of this procedure (Royal College of Psychiatrists, 2013). All the same, it should be stated that SRS does not automatically mean any issue is resolved, and much psychotherapy may be needed after the procedure in order to improve outcome generally (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfaf?in, 2009).

            10/17/2016 Gender Dysphoria DSM-5 302.85 (F64.9) – Therapedia

          • Amos Moses

            Nope … Body Dysmorphia ……….. there is nothing wrong that can be corrected by lopping something off or drilling a hole in …. DNA is not altered by surgery ………….

          • Amos Moses

            that is what is said when you GOT NOTHING ………… good one …….

          • Leslie Gray

            I have more than you do. At least I know the difference between an imagined issue and an actual medical issue.

          • Amos Moses

            doubt it ….. but what ever makes you feel good about yourself ……….

          • Amos Moses

            Sure …. i have a 20 year medical career ………

          • Leslie Gray

            Doing what? Emptying bed pans and picking up the laundry?

          • Amos Moses

            so ad hominem …… again … when you have nothing …. personal attacks …….

          • ShemSilber

            Shalom, Brother Amos. I just blocked Leslie Gray. There is no use even talking to such a bloody pervert. When his blessing is on his own head, then maybe he will learn to be attentive to words such as Psalm 111:10 and even John 3:16, in Yahushua’s Name, omein.

        • Amos Moses

          “There is no basis in fact to declare being transgender as a mental health condition, since the mental health community nolonger does so itself.”

          DSM-V …. BDD – Body Dysmorphic Disorder ….. covers homosexuals, trangender/transvestites, OCD, anorexia/bulimia and a number of other body dysmorphia ………. any dis-ease where a person “feels” they are not what they see in the mirror ……….

          SO WRONG …………. and it makes no difference to SCRIPTURE even if what you said was true ……

          • Leslie Gray

            Body Dysmorphic Disorder, or BDD, is a disorder in which a person’s perception of their body does not align with reality. Body dysmorphia causes someone to believe their body is a certain way. However, gender dysphoria is a sense that the body should be a different way. While the differences may seem subtle at first glance, there is a world of difference between body and gender, as well as between dysmorphia and dysphoria.

            People with BDD are not able to see the difference between the way their body is and the way other people see their body. Transgender folks on the other hand are uncomfortably able to see the way their body really is, and are fully aware of the way that reality conflicts with their internal experience of their gender. There is a vast difference between an imagined problem that manifests itself in the form of a disorder and an actual medical condition such as gender dysphoria.

            In the case of a mental disorder, psychotherapy and medication are generally shown to be helpful, and this is the case for body dysmorphia. People dealing with gender dysphoria, on the other hand, do not experience relief from the sense of dissonance when put on medication, and though therapy is often helpful, it does not cause gender dysphoria to subside.

            I’m not the one that’s wrong.

          • Amos Moses

            “BDD, is a disorder in which a person’s perception of their body does not align with reality.”

            Thus a person who thinks they are a man when they are a woman has it …. as do the others mentioned …….. OCD, homosexuals, transvestites, anorexics and bulemics ….. etc ……

          • Leslie Gray

            Still desperately clinging to your cherished but mistaken notions I see. Dysphoria responds to medical treatment. Whereas, dysmorphia is only treatable with psychotropics and counseling. You really must read all of the post. Otherwise you’re just going to embarrass yourself even more.

          • Amos Moses

            sure it does …….. and so it is a mental disorder ………. men are men ….. women are women …. and a pindictamy or a encaviotomy does not change it ………. and once a lie has been spotted it really is pointless to continue to read the confusion and misdirection ……….

          • Leslie Gray

            What medical dictionary did you find those words in? “pindictamy or a encaviotomy” The Bart Simpson Encyclopedia of Medical Malpractice?

          • Amos Moses

            made up words for a made up disease … and mistreatment of same ……….

          • Leslie Gray

            I hate to burst your bubble, but every single word we speak is made up of a string of sounds and then given a meaning. Interestingly, modern medical scientific research is massing volumes of evidence contrary to your notions.

            10/3/2016 Hopkins faculty disavow ‘troubling’ report on gender and sexuality – Baltimore Sun

            Science, and particularly the fields of psychiatry and psychology, has made major advances in our understanding of the complex issues of sexual orientation and gender identity. For instance, accumulating data support the concept that gender identity is not strictly a binary phenomenon. And scientific evidence clearly documents that sexual and romantic attractions to people of the same and/or different sexes are normal variations of the diversity of human sexuality.

            Homosexuality is no longer considered an illness by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association or any of the other mainstream professional organizations in the health field. These organizations have come to affirm what LGBTQ people and their loved ones have known for years: that being gay or transgender is perfectly consistent with being healthy and well.

          • Amos Moses

            “Interestingly, modern medical scientific research is massing volumes of evidence contrary to your notions.”

            Just because a scientist says something … does not make it science ………. and when they remove God from their “science” … it is no longer science ….. it is at best pseudo-science …. and it is that because what they are saying cannot be replicated reliably and if science is not repeatable …. again … NOT SCIENCE ….. just made up nonsense …………. there are no BCs that have anything other than Male and Female …. no box for homosexual …. no box for trans-ANYTHING …. because there is no SCIENCE to determine such nonsense ………….. it is “feelings” and “feelings” are not repeatable and not therefore science ………….. and “massing volumes of evidence” that is nonsense ….. is just that ….. nonsense …………. it has no probative meaning …. and that is what “feelings” are as far as science is concerned …………

          • Leslie Gray

            Oh, there’s plenty of science that goes against what you demand they say. A study conducted by researchers at UCLA and published in the July 2009 issue of Neuroimage, analyzed MRI data from 24 MtF individuals who had not yet undergone any hormone therapy. When compared against control data from 30 cisgender men and 30 cisgender women, researchers found that the cerebral grey matter of MtF individuals does not exactly match either control group, though most regions of the brain did resemble cisgender male (that is, those who match the subjects’ birth-assigned sex) more closely than cisgender female (who matched the subjects’ stated gender identity). However, they note “significantly larger volume of regional gray matter” at the right-side base of the forebrain of MtF subjects, compared to the male control group.

            Similar MRI research was conducted in Madrid, Spain in 2010 and found that white matter microstructures in the brains of FtM individuals more closely resembled the structure of cisgender men (who matched the subjects’ gender identity) than of women (who matched their birth-assigned sex). However, additional research found that after undergoing hormone therapy, the subjects’ white matter was altered to even more closely resemble that of cisgender males, indicating that the initial differences are innate and are then enhanced by the addition of androgenic hormones.

            Together, these studies of cerebral grey and white matter, as well as studies of the limbic nucleus, show strong evidence that transgender identity is biological in basis, or, in a word, “natural.” It is important to remember that though this research provides clues, transgender neurobiology is still largely mysterious, and brain structure is only one of many factors that likely influence gender identity. Continuing research may one day provide access to earlier and more effective methods of transition for transgender individuals, improving psychological well-being and quality of life for many.

          • Amos Moses

            “A study conducted by researchers at UCLA and published in the July 2009 issue of Neuroimage, analyzed MRI data from 24 MtF individuals who had not yet undergone any hormone therapy.”

            MRI Rorschach tests are not science ….. they would not be able to be given an MRI and then tell what was what or who was what ………….. science devoid of God …. seeing what they want to see ….. not science …

          • Amos Moses

            None of it has any basis in science ………… so why should i pay it any attention ………..

          • Leslie Gray

            You were the one that engaged me in conversation. I have yet to see a single example of scientific evidence to back up any statements you’ve made.

          • Amos Moses

            You were the one misapplying scripture to a nefarious end and it needed to be corrected ….

          • Leslie Gray

            Actually, I was not mistaken in my use of scripture. I merely failed to salve your ears with false praise and adoration. The truth can be painful when you don’t want to hear it. Debating with you brings to mind the scripture about casting pearls before swine. This is where I stop casting to you.

          • Amos Moses

            truth is painful …. misuse of scripture is even more painful …… you have no pearls to cast to begin casting ……..

          • Leslie Gray

            The Bible clearly states that Christians are expected to seek out and render aid to those most in need of help. Yet, all too often these self proclaiming Christians eagerly deny help to those that need that help the very most. So called Christian conservative politicians who are at once quick to demand recognition for their religious freedoms are just as quick to demand the right to deny aid to anyone they deem to be sinners.

            Christian conservatives often refuse to fund aid programs for the homeless, single mothers, the unemployed, imprisoned, sick or injured, claiming that the homeless are responsible for putting themselves in the situation they find themselves in and should simply pray to God for help. And then these same conservatives tell those in need to find a way to get themselves out of trouble on their own, while they go off to their warm safe homes stocked with all manner of creature comforts.

            Demanding the right to create a comfort zone for the exclusive privilege of practicing their ‘faith’ without the outside interference of having to be exposed to those in greatest need has no basis in scripture. As a matter of fact, the desire to exclude those deemed lesser than thou was a common practice in Jesus’ day that He himself denounced on one occasion in particular splendor.

            Matthew 25:31-45New International Version (NIV)

            The Sheep and the Goats

            31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, … he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. … For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, … When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, … 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, … I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 4 … ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

            The transgender community has a long historic record of being the most disadvantaged demographic in this nation. Transgender women have the distinction of being the most oppressed, with transgender women of color taking the brunt of the disdain emitting from society as a whole. Where does this disdain and rejection come from? One source of transgender discrimination that is easy to identify comes directly from conservative churches and their members. Yet, Jesus said that there were those whose condition of birth should not be excluded from the love of the faithful.

            In Jesus’ time the term transgender did not yet exist. The much less accurate term eunuch was the most frequently used term when referring to a transgender person. From my perspective, it would seem that denying the life condition of anyone that has been recognized as having been ‘born that way’ by such an important figure as the Messiah himself would run dangerously close to denying a biblical truth.

            Matthew 19:12 (NIV)

            12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others–and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

            If this, “For there are eunuchs who were born that way,… ” is not a transgender woman, then who is it? If this, “…and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others…” is not a man that lost his fertility to injury or illness, then who is it? This, “…and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.” has got to be a person who has taken a vow of celibacy for the sake of their faith. There it is, right there in the book of Matthew, hiding in plain sight for all the world to find and reason with, yet none of those devout conservatives can see it.

            There is a great deal made by conservatives of the Love of God and the way He judges people based on what is in their hearts when speaking of themselves. Yet, these same conservatives insist on holding national origin, race, religion, sexual orientation and gender identity against people when there is a scripture that sets all of those things aside as irrelevant in the eyes of God.

            In Galatians 3:28, we can see that God pays no attention to the outside appearance of His followers. He only cares about what’s in our hearts.

            28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

          • Leslie Gray

            At times like these, I draw comfort from the words of our founding fathers and their views on politics and religion.

            “In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

            ~Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Horatio Spofford, 1814

          • Amos Moses

            i put no faith in Jefferson ….. Truth can stand on its own …….. and you were not being truthful about scripture and were the one in error ……..

  • Amos Moses

    Shepard Smith of Fox News Comes Out as Gay, Defends Roger Ailes

    Well …. doesn’t that just put the cherry on the parfait …………..