Washington State Supreme Court Hears Appeal of Florist Accused of Discrimination for Declining ‘Gay Wedding’

StutzmanOLYMPIA, Wash. — Justices with the Washington State Supreme Court heard on Tuesday the appeal of a florist accused of discrimination by providing a referral for a regular customer’s request for the creation of floral arrangements for his same-sex ceremony rather than fulfilling the order herself.

Washington Attorney General Bob Ferguson told the court that Baronelle Stutzman of Arlene’s Flowers may believe what she wishes in her heart and mind, but cannot live out her convictions when it comes to a public business.

“Ms. Stutzman for her religious expression is free to believe what she wishes,” he argued. “But when she engages in public accommodations and avails herself of the protections and benefits that come with being a business, there are of course responsibilities that flow from that.”

Ferguson compared the situation to being refused to be served at a restaurant.

“I’m Catholic, for example. If I go to a restaurant to celebrate the first communion of my young twins with my wife, the restaurant owner shouldn’t be able to say, ‘I’m sorry, Bob, we do not serve Catholics,'” he said.

But Stutzman’s attorney, Kristen Waggoner of Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) told the justices that Stutzman does not refuse to serve homosexuals. She rather could not participate in a particular event, and would have been willing to offer flowers in general outside of having to create custom arrangements, which would make her personally involved in the details of the ceremony.

“It’s undisputed that Mrs. Stutzman would be more than happy to sell pre-arranged flowers, flowers out of the cooler,” Waggoner explained. “Anything but the custom arrangement that requires intimate involvement in creating the expression itself.”

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Some Christians believe that being a part of a same-sex event violates the biblical command in 1 Timothy 5:22 not to be “partakers in other men’s sins,” as well as the command in Ephesians 5:7, “Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”

As previously reported, Ferguson leveled Stutzman with a lawsuit in 2012 as he claimed that she violated the law by not fulfilling the order for the same-sex event.

Stutzman had been approached by one of her faithful customers, Robert Ingersoll, a homosexual, as he wanted her to supply the floral arrangements for his upcoming ceremony with his partner, Curt.

“We had gone to Arlene’s for many years and enjoyed her service. She did a great job for us, so it was just natural for us to go there to have her do our flowers,” Freed told KUOW radio.

Stutzman states that she politely explained that she would not be able to help in regard to the event, but referred him to three other florists that could be of assistance.

“I just took his hands and said, ‘I’m sorry. I cannot do your wedding because of my relationship with Jesus Christ,’” Stutzman told reporters.

But after Ingersoll decided to post on Facebook about the matter, controversy arose on both sides of the issue—both for and against Stutzman. The florist said that she received a number of threatening and angry comments.

“It blew way out of proportion,” Stutzman explained. “I’ve had hate mail. I’ve had people that want to burn my building. I’ve had people that will never shop here again and [vow to] tell all their friends.”

Weeks later, Attorney General Bob Ferguson issued Stutzman a letter advising that she must accommodate homosexual ceremonies or be subject to a lawsuit and heavy fines. He included with his letter a form that offered Stutzman the opportunity to recant and agree to comply with the law. She refused, and was subsequently met with a discrimination suit.

But the Christian legal organization Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) contended that Ferguson’s actions were inappropriate since he never received a complaint, but rather filed on his own volition. It also filed a motion asking that Ferguson and the ACLU—which filed a separate suit—be prohibited from attacking Stutzman on a personal level.

In January 2015, Benton County Superior Court Judge Alex Eckstrom—while throwing out a charge that accused Stutzman of directing her business to violate the state’s anti-discrimination laws—ruled that the florist may be held personally responsible for the incident.

A month later, Eckstrom granted summary judgment to Stutzman’s opponents, agreeing that she had committed an act of discrimination. The court also ordered Stutzman to provide full service to same-sex ceremonies, which includes not only accepting the order, but also delivering to the homosexual celebration, and assisting with the specific arrangements and decoration on-site.

She appealed to the Washington Supreme Court, which agreed to take her case in March.

Stutzman has now discontinued offering flowers for any weddings at all.


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  • Michael C

    It should also be noted that Stutzman refused to allow any of her employees to sell floral arrangements to gay couples for their weddings, as well.

    Stutzman does not have to make floral arrangements for weddings. In fact, for the last four years, Stutzman’s business has remained compliant with local non-discrimination laws. Because Stutzman wants to refuse to sell gay customers flowers for their weddings, she has chosen to not sell flowers for any weddings. It was really simple.

    Instead of advising their client to pay the very small fine, Stutzman’s lawyers have dragged this out for years even though they know she will lose. They’ve raised massive amounts of money for themselves off of this case at the potential expense of their client’s livelihood.

    • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      You don’t get to tell her what kinds of services she can offer.

      • Michael C

        That’s correct. She decides what kinds of services she’s willing to provide to the general public.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          And she doesn’t do same sex union products.

          • Liberal Elitist

            What does a “same-sex union product” look like? I’m profoundly curious.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The same thing meat offered to idols looks like 1 Corinthians 8.

          • Liberal Elitist

            Next you’ll be telling us she doesn’t sell gay flowers.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Naw, she sold flowers to gay patrons all the time. She’s friends with the guy who’s suing her.

          • Liberal Elitist

            If you’re referring to the customer, he is not suing her. All he did was publicize his discrimination on Facebook. I suppose, in your view, gays shouldn’t even be allowed to use Facebook.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You forgot to mention the part about Seattle gay groups targeting Barronelle and other Christian businesses. They were foolish enough to brag about it online.

          • Liberal Elitist

            You’re forgetting about the fact that the majority of Christian-owned businesses have no problem serving gay couples and straight couples equally.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You keep forgetting that strait is the gate and narrow the way, and few there be that find it.

          • Liberal Elitist

            Doesn’t sound like a good business model.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The topic isn’t business. It’s eternity.

          • Liberal Elitist

            If the “Christian” business owner is so devout, then she shouldn’t have a for-profit business in the first place.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            There is nothing wrong with being paid for one’s work. You’re confusing Christianity with Communism.

          • Liberal Elitist

            You’re confusing business with religion.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You seem confused. You don’t realize that there’s nothing wrong with being paid for one’s work. In fact, the Bible says it’s serious offense to not pay one for one’s work.

          • Trilemma

            Paul said it’s not a sin to eat meat offered to idols. Therefore, it’s not a sin to sell products that will be used at a same sex wedding. Paul knew that eating meat offered to idols is not participation in the ceremony nor approval of what’s going on there. In the same way, selling products that will be used at a same sex wedding are not participation in the ceremony nor approval of what’s going on there.

          • TrueChristian

            Yes, the sins of those of this world are between them and God, not for Christians to judge. What people do with their purchases is between them and God just like it was for the Corinth Christians.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That’s not what he said. In fact, we’re told to keep away from idols, and that if we know something is offered to idols, to stay away because of conscience sake – ours and that of others.

          • TrueChristian

            Paul clarified in 1 Corinthians 5 that Christians can have dealing with those of this world, that whatever they do with their purchases is between them and God and not the Christians concern.

            That Barronelle practices a broken type of Christianity isn’t the issue – this is America and we let all manner of beliefs exist on a level playing field no matter how wacky.

            BUT, whatever beliefs the business owner has they have to respect the rights of the people they invite to come do business with them. Invite the public then they know that every single customer that walks through the door has a constitutional right to NOT share their religious beliefs and still accept the invitation.

            Can’t sell something to people of all faiths why are they offering to people of every faith to begin with?

          • johndoe

            She was asked for flowers…not same sex marriage products. What are those anyway??

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Products offered up to the false god same sex unions. You can ready about it in 1 Corinthians 8.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            If that’s what she wants to do, then she can face the consequences of breaking the law.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Just like Martin Luther King Jr faced the consequences of breaking unjust laws, and those who helped slaves escape.

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Um, yes? They did.

        • Palsgraf’s Scale

          Indeed. And once she offers those services to the general public, she cannot discriminate on the bases of protected class. She availed herself of the benefits of a business within her state, and she has to follow the rules that come with that.

      • johndoe

        She provides flowers for weddings and that is what she refused to provide.

        • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          No she didn’t. She refused to provide service to a same sex union.

          • johndoe

            In a public business, what you offer to one customer, flowers for a wedding, you must offer to all customers. Public accommodation laws ensure this and prevents discrimination. She will lose, again.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Exactly. But same sex unions aren’t weddings.

          • johndoe

            They are legally marriage in all 50 states here in America, your opinon on the matter is just that and nothing more

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            And slavery was once legal in all 50 states, so…?

          • johndoe

            LOL! Funny that always comes up. Slavery is involuntary servitude. Not consentual. Why should SSM be illegal? How does it harm anyone? Why has the Supreme Court ruled it as a civil right 14 times?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            It comes up because it perfectly proves that just because something is law doesn’t make it right.

          • Tangent002

            Which is what I said about the prohibition against allowing same-sex couples to marry.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You could use your faulty line of reasoning to justify anything, including pedophilia and incest.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Pedophilia – abuse of a minor. Illegal.
            Same-sex marriage – no abuse involved. Legal.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why is pedophilia an abuse? Love is love, right? Who are you to tell people who to love?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Because sexual activity with a minor who cannot consent is illegal.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            But why is it illegal?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Because a minor is not deemed responsible for his/her actions.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Don’t minors deserve the right to be loved? (Using your logic here)

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Not in that way…obviously.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m making a point about the hypocrisy of homosexual arguments. The same can be used for any abomination like pedo behavior, incest, etc.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            But your argument fails, because homosexuals are not abusing one another, do you understand the concept of consenting adults?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            But you’re calling it abuse. Who are you to call it abuse? (Same argument for homosexuality, remember – your standards cannot be mine).

          • Jenny Ondioline

            If it’s not an adult human being, it is abuse. Get it?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            So incest is okay, right? (Going by your logic of course).

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Define “okay”. It’s disgusting but ultimately no one’s being abused. Pretty common in the trailer park where you live, I should think.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why are you offended? It’s no different from the same sex union arguments you love so much.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You want to marry your sister? Go ahead. It’s quite unrelated to homosexuals marrying no matter what spin you want to put on it.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Hey, consenting adults and all that. It’s YOUR argument.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            If no one’s being abused, such as children or animals, they can swing from the chandeliers for all I care. Your comparison is still daft.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Did you really think you could switch alts and no one would know?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I didn’t. You’re wrong again.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Whatever, Dina.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            My name is not Dina. Bad guess.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why are you so hysterical Dina?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I’m just saying that you should stop trolling. If you have proof I am this Dina then provide it, but we both know you don’t because I’m not.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            What are you talking about? And I don’t think you want to be dox’d. Don’t you learn about computer safety at Averill?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I don’t know what Averill is, if you dox anyone it won’t be me but it WILL get you in trouble, so tread carefully. You should not make unfounded accusations you are incapable of backing up.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I haven’t dox’d anyone so I have no idea what you’re talking about. Where has anyone been accused of anything, and why are you being so combative against Christians?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Why did you mention doxxing above then? “I don’t think you want to be dox’d”.
            Were you making a threat?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Why are you making things up and falsely accusing posters?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Did you or did you not say in the comment just 5 up from this one, which should be readable on ANYONE’s screen, “And I don’t think you want to be dox’d”?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That’s not a threat, that’s a statement. Are you always this paranoid?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It’s a statement that suggests I should be concerned about being doxxed, as if you even had the power to do so. Don’t say things you cannot back up.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’re hysterical over nothing. Have I posted your full name, address, and phone number? Of course not. Have I threatened to? Of course not. Why are you falsely accusing me?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Why did you mention doxxing? Take your time.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Whatever floats your boat, son.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            So by your logic, you’re a pedophile and incestuous. Disgusting!

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, by my logic, I’m not a pedophile – how did you come to that ridiculous conclusion? Neither am I incestuous, but I will concede that I don’t find incest to be an act of abuse. I don’t condone it in any way, but it’s as irrelevant as your comparison to homosexuality as pedophilia is.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dina, you used the same arguments for homosexuality that pervs do for incest and pedophilia. They are no different.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            My name is not Dina. I am in fact a man, my name is the name of a vintage keyboard. If you call me Dina again, I will report you to the moderators. You have been warned.

            You have also been told that pedophilia is not comparable to homosexuality because pedophiles is an act of abuse of a minor.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            But why is it abuse? Look, I agree that pedophilia is abuse, but you have used the exact same arguments for homosexuality that are now being used for incest and pedophilia. What’s the difference? There is none according to YOUR logic. God’s Word says they are ALL abominations.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Homosexuality is NOT abuse.
            There is no party having anything done to them against their will. You insist on comparing it to pedophilia, which is the sexual abuse of one who cannot consent. Your comparison fails for that reason. I cannot break it down any more for you.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Sure it is. The Bible calls it abuse of one’s body.

            Whether one is consenting or not doesn’t stop it from being sin. It’s still a perversion, and it’s still sexual abuse, just like pedophilia and incest. Odd you can’t see that, Dina/CroquetPlayer.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No the Bible doesn’t call it that.

            You were warned about falsely accusing me of being people I am not, and your post has been flagged.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Yes the Bible does call it that. Why are you flagging me when I’ve not accused you of being anyone?? I am talking about 1 Corinthians 6:18: “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he
            that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.”

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You accused me of being Dina and Croquet Player, one of whom I have ever even HEARD of…and you did it several times.

            Here’s the definition of fornication: sexual intercourse between people not married to each other.
            Here’s the definition of homosexuality: a sexual attraction between people of the same sex.

            So why, when we are talking about homosexuality, do you present a Bible verse about fornication and try to tell me with a straight face that “the Bible calls it abuse of one’s body”? Don’t present Bible verses talking about something completely unrelated.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Go to the original Greek. It means so much more than that.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You’re still trying to compare completely disparate things.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Here goes the no true Scotsman fallacy in motion! 🙂

          • Jenny Ondioline

            That didn’t even make sense.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Like I said, no self awareness. 🙂

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You are trying to apply the No True Scotsman fallacy to other people in situations where it is absurd to try to do so. You’re trolling. That’s all.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You don’t even know what no true Scotsman is, and the irony is that you are the one guilty of falling into it with every post! 🙂

          • Jenny Ondioline

            You’ve been explained what it is. I’m not the one telling other people they’re false anything, so not only am I not doing it with every post, I haven’t done it even once. Unlike yourself. You’re pretty obviously just trolling now – I’m going to recommend the moderators remove you.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m sorry, but you have clearly misunderstood what the true Scotsman fallacy is just like you have misunderstood what wiki is and how to source anything. 🙂

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Here’s a classic example of No True Scotsman:

            Person A: “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”
            Person B: “But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge.”
            Person A: “Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.”

            Substitute “Christian” for “Scotsman” and you should see your face in the mirror 🙂

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That has nothing to do with this discussion. I don’t have time to give you an education, but I will simply repeat that a.) wiki is not a credible source for anything, and b.) you clearly have no clue what the no true Scotsman fallacy refers to since you are the one who is committing that error. 🙂 You can’t change the definition of true Scotsman (substitute that with Christian. See if that helps you).

          • Jenny Ondioline

            The No True Scotsman fallacy has got nothing to do with wiki. It’s a logical fallacy like many others.

            You commit it when you claim there are false Christians, when in the only sense they are “false” is that they disagree with you. I do not commit the fallacy because I’m making no claims, for starters.

            See if that helps you! Have a blessed day!

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Look, when you misuse terminology that you get from online logic sites, it’s as obvious as when someone goes to Babel to pretend they speak a foreign language. I kindly explained the error of your ways. Using a Bible verse with a definition in it by Jesus Christ Himself is in no way a fallacy. You do not know better than Jesus Christ what or who a Christian is.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No, using the Bible verse with a definition in it by Jesus Christ isn’t the fallacy part. The fallacy part comes in when two differing Christians take that Bible verse and cannot agree on its meaning and there is no one to resolve the dispute. They remain at loggerheads and call one another false Christians because they can’t come to any kind of understanding. And when they call one another “false” because of it you get

            No.
            True.
            Scotsman.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’re rambling now on something I’ve not been talking about. You did the same thing under Croquet_Player.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Flagged. I am not, nor was I ever, Croquet_Player.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’d think by the ripe old age of 51 you’d learn something.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            I’m not even in my 50s yet. Where is this coming from? More reaching?

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Trolling doesn’t help your already very weak case. 🙂

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’ve kindly given you Bible verses and patiently explained the proper use of no true Scotsman fallacy to you. In no way can that be interpreted as trolling.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Insisting that I am other people whom you’ve fought with in the past is trolling. As is dismissing my iron-clad illustration of how you abuse the No True Scotsman fallacy and make yourself look even worse by accusing ME of it when I haven’t even made a claim about anyone being a “false” anything.

          • Liberal Elitist

            There is nothing Christian about discrimination.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Whose business is getting shut down?

          • Liberal Elitist

            Who broke the law?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The same kind of people who always break unjust laws – like Martin Luther King Jr and those who helped slaves escape.

          • Liberal Elitist

            Such lawless business owners are free to move and set up shop in pro-discrimination states.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You sound like the Nazis – “Such lawless Jews are free to move and set up shop in pro-Jewish states”.

          • Liberal Elitist

            Nazis likewise didn’t like making flower arrangements for Jews.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Naw, they destroyed Jewish businesses just like you and your buddies are trying to destroy Christian businesses.

    • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

      As the owner of the shop, she doubtless felt responsible for the actions of her employees and having her business support a SSM.

      • Tangent002

        Yet by turning away business, she is not acting in the best interest of her employees. I wonder if any were let go due to her decision not to provide flowers for weddings at all.

        • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          No business executive is obligated to act in the best interest of their employees. They have a “fiduciary duty” to act in the best interests of the owners of the business. In this case, as she is also the owner, she has an obligation to act in her best interests.

          • TrueChristian

            Ah, an appeal to the morality of Mammon, that makes sense.

            So you are outraged that she is being ‘forced’ to do something she doesn’t want to do by her sales practices but you aren’t equally as outraged by a business owner ‘force’ their employees do something they don’t want to do, i.e. illegally discriminate against someone civil rights.

            All makes sense from a Mammon point of view, doesn’t from a Christian one.

            The Christian solution is the one she has actually used – don’t offer things for sale she can’t in good conscience sell legally. Oddly enough, that was one of the solutions the Attorney General suggested in his very first letter to her about this, and she adopted it almost immediately. The only reason this is even going on is her own pride and hubris and quite a bit of loving the spotlight. Oh and then that hypocrisy thing as noted above.

      • Michael C

        Stutzman’s support was neither requested nor necessary.

        • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

          Obviously, she felt different. She felt that by providing the floral arrangements, she was supporting their SSM, which she declined to do.

          Hence by requesting a floral arrangement, they were (in her mind) requesting support.

          • Michael C

            She’s free to post a sign in her store and a notice on her website/facebook and even advertise on billboards her personal religious beliefs concerning marriage. She’s free to make it widely known what she does and does not support.

            What she cannot do, however, is refuse service on the basis of a customer’s sexual orientation.

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            As has been shown multiple times – she has and will gladly service this customer, as she has in the past. It is the event with which she declined to participate.

          • Michael C

            If a business refuses to sell flowers to an interfaith couple for their wedding because the business owner’s personal religious beliefs are in opposition to interfaith relationships, this is considered to be discrimination on the basis of the customer’s religion.

            If a business refuses to sell flowers to an interracial couple for their wedding because the business owner’s personal religious beliefs are in opposition to interracial relationships, this is considered to be discrimination on the basis of the customer’s race.

            If a business refuses to sell flowers to a gay couple for their wedding because the business owner’s personal religious beliefs are in opposition to gay relationships, this is considered to be discrimination on the basis of the customer’s sexual orientation.

            It doesn’t matter whether or not the business usually refrains from discriminating against people on the basis of their religion, race, or sexual orientation. The laws exist so that customers are never discriminated against on the basis of their religion, race, or sexual orientation.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Which she cannot legally do.

  • AlphaOmega

    Take a good look at this lady’s photo and remember:
    This is the kind of person that homosexuals target.
    Not jihadis, who throw homosexuals off roofs or behead them.
    Nope, they go after bakers and florists.
    Not only vindictive, but cowardly as well.

    Don’t hold your breath waiting for them to try to shut down a Muslim business.
    They don’t have the spine for that. Easier to go after little old church ladies.

    • Tangent002

      Let’s see if that argument holds up in court, “Yes, your honor, I broke the law, but at least I’m not ISIS!”

      • AlphaOmega

        Hey, if you love taking away someone’s means of making a living,
        that’s cool.

        People get their kicks in different ways.

        If you like persecuting little old ladies, I don’t judge you. You sound like a fine human being, noble and courageous. You’ll show those old biddies how tough you are.

        • Tangent002

          Being cute and old isn’t a license to break the law.

          • AlphaOmega

            No one is trying to deny you your right to hate Christians.

            If hating fills some sort of emotional need in your life, that’s fine. We’re all different. I don’t understand the obsession with dragging people through the judicial system, but some people take pleasure in the sufferings of other human beings. If you’re born that way, who am I to judge?

          • Tangent002

            I do not hate Christians at all. Your assertion that all crime is unimportant and should be ignored if it does not rise to the level of beheading is absurd.

          • johndoe

            Not about hatred for christians. She openly discriminated. She brome public accommodation laws. Her decision to refuse service. She wasnt asked for anything she didn’t routinely do for others.

          • BigHobbit

            No one is dragged through the judicial system until they are accused of breaking the law. She didn’t claim that she did NOT break the law, only that she has a special “right” to violate the law. Turns out she doesn’t have that “right.”

          • Jenny Ondioline

            No one hates Christians. But bigots are not terribly popular.

        • Liberal Elitist

          At least gays in the United States don’t cut off little old Christian ladies’ heads, like they do in some Muslim-dominated countries. Here in the U.S., we just “persecute” Christians by waiting in line at florists to purchase flower arrangements and at wedding cake bakers to purchase wedding cakes.

        • BigHobbit

          Every one who breaks the law and gets caught, cries “persecution.”

          It doesn’t wash. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

        • Croquet_Player

          I don’t care much for this “persecution” line of reasoning. If any of my beloved family, friends, or neighbors, who are Christian (insert all denominations here), Jewish, Muslim, or atheist, had been turned away from a business (for any reason) at which they had every legal right to shop and expect the same fair treatment as everyone else, I would be equally disapproving of the outcome. She is an adorable grandmother. And she treated some people unfairly, and broke the law. You can do both you know, they’re not mutually exclusive.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          Is that avatar the atheist logo? Are you one of the rare breed of atheist homophobes?

          If you don’t like the term “homophobe” call it uh….anti-LGBT?

    • Biscuit

      We live in America, so we have to deal with the problems within America. If jihadist were throwing homosexuals off roofs and beheading them in America, obviously that would take highest priority. How would you deal with sick religion in a sick part of the world? Religious beliefs should not be a license to hate and discriminate in America. Do you think it is a coincidence that Islam and Christianity both hate homosexuals? Do they share the same God or more likely, do the heterosexual men who wrote the Bible and the Quran share the same hated for homosexuals?

    • Tangent002

      Muslim taxi drivers face fines or revocation of their licenses if they refuse to transport people carrying alcohol or are accompanied by dogs.

    • johndoe

      Any proof she was targeted? She broke tha law.

      • BigHobbit

        She was “targeted” in the same way that speeders are “targeted” for speeding, because she broke the law.
        It is her responsibility to know and to comply with the law – she could only be caught, excuse me, “targeted”, because she chose to violate the law.

    • BigHobbit

      Take a good look at the photo and remember:

      This is the kind of person that thinks they are entitled to violate consumer protection laws because their religion makes them exempt from the law.
      When you CHOOSE to enter a public market, you CHOOSE to be subject to the laws that apply to that market. No one, not even a Christian lady in her seventies, is entitled to her own set of laws.

      • Mr Dave

        Her decision not to serve the people in question is not because of a religion. Its a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It even states in the Bible, God’s Word, not to be involved with people who go against God’s Word. So it sounds like to me you have a issue with God and not this florist. SO take up this issue with God and tell us all how it goes.

        • TrueChristian

          If that was the excuse then she wouldn’t be dealing with any non-Christians, but she did.

          Again, if her beliefs won’t let her sell custom wedding floral arrangements to people of all faiths as the law requires then she shouldn’t be offering them to the public in the first place. And she hasn’t been for the last 3½ years and is doing fine.

          This will be the end once the court rules.

        • BigHobbit

          You get to have YOUR relationship with whatever supernatural being you believe in. That is YOUR right.
          My first amendment right to religion, is to have MY relationship with whatever supernatural being I believe in. That is MY right.
          YOU don’t get to enforce YOUR religion on me, and I don’t get to enforce MY religion on YOU.
          We leave religion out of it, and have laws that apply to both of us be consistent with the US Constitution, NOT on either YOUR religion, or MY religion.

          • polyscifi

            If she declines to do what YOU order her to do, she isn’t forcing you to do anything, YOU are trying to force her. She is the one being ordered to do a job. This is basic logic. And for people who like to pretend they are smarter than everyone else, it makes you look particularly bad.

          • BigHobbit

            Nonsense – no one is “forced” to sell cakes to gay people, because no one is “forced” to open a business that sells to the public. If you CHOOSE to open a business that sells to the public, you CHOOSE to be subject to all the same laws that every other business has to abide by. If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, you have the perfect religious liberty to PICK ANOTHER INDUSTRY.

          • BigHobbit

            The basic logic of business is to know and to comply with all the rules, regulations and laws that apply to that business. If you don’t choose to follow the laws in that industry, then pick another industry.
            There is no “logic” to letting every business pick and choose which laws they wish to comply with.

          • Mr Dave

            Like I said, her decision is not based on a religion, its based on the Bible, God’s word. SO if you have a problem with her decision you need to take it up with God Not some religion. God is not a religion, he is God.

          • Tangent002

            You have a bizarre definition of ‘religion’.

          • Mr Dave

            Religion is an organized group of individuals believing a certain way of worship. God is not a group, for instance…Catholic, Atheist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Church of Satan. God is God. The “I Am”. He is God, not a form of worship.

          • Biscuit

            God’s word? Did God also write Psalm 137:9 “Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!”? Your belief is that Jesus is God, can you imagine Jesus saying this?

          • advforops

            You have to state the whole chapter not just the verse, to many always like to do that when his meaning is stated in the chapter not just the verse.

          • Biscuit

            Really! Stating the whole chapter makes this better? This is something you believe Jesus would have said? I could give you many other scriptures but I will give just one more. In 2 Kings 2:23-25, a group of boys were making fun of Elisha, they called him baldy, baldy! So he curses them in the name of the Lord and then God sends 2 bears to kill the 42 children. Does this sound like the Jesus who told the little children to come to him? I don’t think so.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “God is not a religion, he is God”

            Fair enough, but the worship of that God is, by definition, a religion.

          • advforops

            The Lord Jesus Christ said that no religion will get you to Heaven. Only a relationship with God and his son, who is the Lord Jesus Christ. God does not call a relationship with himself a religion. Only man who is flawed does.

          • advforops

            Hey BigHobbit, Where do you think most of our law come from in the first place, its called the Bible, you know The Word of God!

          • TheKingOfRhye

            HAHAHAH……..that’s funny. Do you really think that?

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Would you say…..what’s the ultimatle law in the Bible? The 10 commandments, maybe?

          • advforops

            It is to love the Lord God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul and to love your fellow man as you love yourself But most important to Honor God’s word. The 10 commandments are only the 1st laws of God to his chosen ones. This is why the Bible has the Old Testaments and the New Testaments. You may treat a person with great respect and friendship but you cannot go against God’s word weather father, son or wife if you are a true believer and Christ follower and you cannot aid a sin by any act of supporting it. That is what the couple was asking the lady to do was aid them in their sin and no Christ follower will ever do that.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            My point was, that the 10 commandments dont reflect American law, mostly.

          • advforops

            Really, I believe you are very wrong about that. Do not Kill, steal, lie, desire what is not yours, Honor your Father and Mother the list goes on. The 10 Commandments are very much in our laws.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Think about it. Most of the 10 commandments would be unconstitutional. Where is anything in American laws to honor your father and mother? Good idea, yes, but where is that in law? And doesn’t the First Amendment violate like a few of the Commandments?

          • advforops

            Once again no it does not God most of all is about freedom of each person to the point of free will. justice of all persons. Man is the only one afraid of another person using there rights. Read of of the Bible and you will know fro yourself about that the ten commandments are only the beginning. By the way slap your mother around and see how you will be treated by the police officers that come to the scene. Laws on the books are one thing but there are other laws that are all around that come before them the laws of right and wrong. I pray you a great day and night. But must get back to my work.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            what is the first commandment? Thou shalt have no gods before me, right?

          • advforops

            I am your Lord God. Got to go.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Uh….ok…….now bow down to ME!!!!

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Stand by, my Hawkmen!!!!!

          • Ambulance Chaser

            Other than killing and stealing, none of those are illegal.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            That’s what I was trying to say. Maybe you can count “thou shalt not lie”, if you take that to mean perjury. I’m pretty sure there’s no law saying you have to honor your parents. Not that I would want to not do that. 😀

          • Mr Dave

            Yes it does. Read it and compare it.

          • BigHobbit

            You can have whatever religious laws you like, that apply to YOU.
            You do not get to have YOUR ideas of “THE WORD OF GOD” apply to others who do not share your beliefs. If you try, you are exactly the same as ISIS trying to enforce Sharia law.

          • Mr Dave

            And what about her right to sell to whoever the florist wants to. Your trying to take that away.

          • BigHobbit

            I am not taking anything away from anyone.
            If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.
            Every business owner has the same responsibility to know and to follow the same rules, regulations and laws that every other business owner has to follow.
            No one is FORCED to sell wedding flowers to gays, because no one is FORCED to sell wedding flowers to the public. If you CHOOSE to sell wedding flowers to the public, you CHOOSE to be subject to the commercial regulations of that business.

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “Her decision not to serve the people in question is not because of a
          religion. Its a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.”

          So…..a religion.

        • DrewTwoFish

          Really? Christians seemed to have worked, or are working their way past, misogyny, xenophobia, slavery and other “clear teachings” of the God’s word. Why are they getting stuck on the “sin” that harms no one, and certainly not them?

          • Mr Dave

            Because we are trying to tell you the wages of sin is death. The free gift of God is eternal life. And that gift comes through Jesus Christ. Believe in Him and you will be saved. Confess with your mouth your sins and believe in your heart that God gave you a gift, Jesus Christ, and the fact he died for you and was raised to life by God, you will be saved.

          • DrewTwoFish

            …which really doesn’t answer my question at all.

      • polyscifi

        Going into business has always been a human right all over the world from the beginning of time.. it hasn’t been a privilege anywhere, at any time, in all of recorded human history. Only in oppressive societies, have people been forced into slavery where they declined to work. The law doesn’t apply to force her to do a wedding in any case. She made referrals, did other events, offered prearranged. There’s no discrimination here to a person. Shame on our country. We’re running Christians out of the marketplace, discriminating against them in business, while audaciously feeling self-righteous about it. It’s dumb.

        • BigHobbit

          Millions of Christians manage to sell stuff every day without breaking consumer protection laws such as anti-discrimination regulations.
          A half dozen, noisy, anti-gay businesses are seeking a special “right” to violate the law because of a fringe “Christian” belief that selling cakes to certain customers violates their interpretation of scripture. It isn’t about “Christians” because millions of Christians do not illegally discriminate in business. It is about Anti-Gay businesses who are claiming a religious basis for their illegal behavior.

        • BigHobbit

          There is indeed an “oppressive” amount of regulations that apply to businesses in America – this is but a tiny sliver of it. Every business is required to comply with literally thousands of different rules, regulations and laws. This particular law says that you have to sell to all customers equally, or at least without discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin, or, in this state, sexual orientation.
          The law says comply with the law or there will be consequences – just like the thousands of other laws – speeding laws, zoning laws, SEC laws, EPA laws, FDA laws, ADA laws, etc.
          If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.
          If YOUR beliefs say pork is unclean, don’t work for a butcher who sells pork.
          If YOUR beliefs say women cannot drive, don’t work for the DMV.
          If YOUR beliefs say don’t ever kill anyone, no matter what, don’t be a soldier.
          If YOUR beliefs say Gays and Lesbians should be denied the right of marriage, don’t work in the wedding industry in a state with an anti-discrimination law that covers sexual orientation.

      • libertynottyranny

        This underscores the whole problem w/ the debate – extreme ignorance by the persecutors (lead by a malevolent states AG) who claims this is a “public” business. It is not! It is a PRIVATE business, free to serve whomever it wills, in whatever manner it chooses, so long as it doesn’t break the law. For the AG (& any other) to call it a public business is ignorant at best.Consumer protection laws protect the consumer from fraud & defective product, not from refusal to serve (& you know that, or should).

        The legal precedent is long. “No shoes, no shirt, no service” still applies. If you being a gay baker, me being a extreamist patron, do I have the “right” to force you, the gay baker, to bake a cake w/ the inscription “death to the infidels & HS!”? Should you be compelled by the state to ‘make that cake’. If the AG is to be consistent, then the answer is yes!

        The argument on the grounds of freedom of religion also dispels some ignorance. The 1st amendment states “Congress shall make no law…”. Many states, in fact, at the founding of the United States had ‘state religions’. The 1st amendment implied it & the 10th amendment granted it outright.

        • BigHobbit

          A PRIVATE business that sells to the public, is required to follow the laws that apply to businesses that sell to the public.
          A private business still has to abide by the laws that govern commerce – they don’t get to pollute, they have to abide by weights and measure, food safety laws, ADA, and they do not get to violate anti-discrimination laws.

          • libertynottyranny

            You & those that think as you do – that by NOT engaging in commerce someone has violated a perceived law or non-existent “right” (my “right” to force you to sell me anything against your will) – are truly insane or flat out Orwellian evil (one or the other).

            A Private business is serving private individuals- she was not engaging in commerce w/ the state (i.e. Public).

            Do you ever tire from the mental gymnastics, switching from public to private & back again as it suits your twisted logic?

            Again, the merchant did NOTHING – which violates NOTHING. Just b/c you disagree w/ her opinion does not entitle you or anyone else to deny her a livelihood.

            You decry burning heretics while it is you that advocates for sharia – prosicuting an individual into violating their conscience or out of business. Your kind of evil is nothing new, but it is most insidious…

          • BigHobbit

            You are describing how you WISH the law and commercial regulations work in this country. I am attempting to clarify how they ARE.
            A lunch counter in the south CAN NOT decline to serve Blacks. You are trying to justify segregation all over again.

          • libertynottyranny

            You’ve got that backwards. I am explaining to you how they work, you (& the crooked WA St AG) are explaining how YOU WISHED they worked (i.e. according to your will & your desires). Your feathers ruffle at the thought of someone telling you how you have to think / what you must believe – perhaps you should try affording others the same courtesy.

            Consumer protection laws are to prevent fraud & the consumer being harmed by defective product.

            There was NO fraud & no defective product. Sorry, no amount of your mental gymnastics will make it otherwise.

            BTW you do know that the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit is a Biblical (i.e. Christian) allegory? Tolkien & CS Lewis, both good friends & Christian, set out to create Christian fantasies. Tolkien wrote the Lord of the rings, Lewis wrote the Narnia series. Just thought you should know so that you can either change your handle or stop engaging in “public” discourse – wouldn’t want you to violate your conscience or the “rights” of some poor consumer of your threads/thoughts (& please spare me the ‘you don’t have to read them’ nonsense – that would be like saying the baker doesn’t have to bake a cake or the florist doesn’t have make an arrangement).

          • BigHobbit

            Anti-discrimination laws are DECADES old – they date from the civil rights era.
            No business has EVER won, in court, a “right”, religious, otherwise, to violate consumer protection laws like anti-discrimination regulations.
            Not once, not ever. Not in any court, not at any level. Not in any state.
            It isn’t even CLOSE to being controversial. Why? Because the legislature that enacted the laws, the prosecutors that enforce them, and the judges that have ruled on them recognize that discrimination in business is a HARM. It harms consumers, and it harms commerce.
            No right includes the “right” to harm others.
            Both Tolkien and Lewis recognized that they were writing FANTASY. I can enjoy literature about powerful supernatural beings without actually buying into supernatural beings actually existing.

          • TrueChristian

            Hmmm, you obviously don’t understand the Consumer Protection Act. By instructing the business to operate illegally the CPA was violated since the offer to the public wasn’t available to all the public that qualified to purchase it – that is a fraudulent offer.

            Your position was presented in court at the beginning of this and the court said the AG’s interpretation was correct and prosecution under the CPA could continue.

        • BigHobbit

          Everyone has the right to their religion, and any business that their religion allows them to conform to the law on.
          You do not get to violate the law, just because you have a religious belief, particularly you do not get to harm others.
          You cannot burn heretics, stone adulterers, sacrifice children, or violate consumer protection laws.

          • libertynottyranny

            Nice, equating burning heretics & stoning adulterers to consumer protection laws. You always so quick on your feet? If she had thrown a brick at him, you myight have a point. What she did was nothing – she chose not to make a sale. Hardly a crime in a sane mind.

            You on the other hand, would deny her a livelihood because you disagree w/ her beliefs. Talk about “burning heretics”…

            So what fraud was committed against or what defective product was sold to the consumer in this case?

          • BigHobbit

            Do you imagine that you could have a lunch counter in the south and refuse to serve Blacks? Jews?
            You are asserting how you WISH the law worked. I am explaining how it ACTUALLY works.

    • SFBruce

      Have any Muslim owned businesses turned away customers because of their sexual orientation where such discrimination is forbidden by law? So far, it hasn’t happened. The only people being “targeted” are those who think they get to pick and choose which laws they will obey.

      • Tangent002

        It is a common canard that these businesses were somehow ‘targeted’ by the LGBT community, when there is no evidence to support that claim. Here in Colorado, Masterpiece Cake Shop was recommended by the couple’s event planner.

        • TrueChristian

          And in Oregon they were a returning customer who had bought a wedding cake a couple years earlier.

          • Tangent002

            True. In none of the discrimination cases is there any indication at all the businesses were ‘targeted’. Indeed, how could one tell? There was nothing on any of the web sites or advertisements that indicated any hostility toward same-sex marriage.

          • TrueChristian

            And since Christians would have sold to a gay couple anyway who would know?

      • Croquet_Player

        No they haven’t, although some people are clearly desperate for it to happen. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the U.S. population of Muslims is around 0.9%, and the population of Christians is around 70%. So it stands to reason that of these populations, a much smaller percentage are bakers. (And most Christian bakers have no problem baking wedding cakes for anyone.) So you’re going to have to look pretty hard to find a Muslim-owned bakery to begin with, and then a Muslim-owned bakery that will turn you away just because you want to buy an ordinary wedding cake* and you’re gay.

        *I say “ordinary” because for some reason some people seem to think that gay people want vulgar decorations on their wedding cakes, instead of the ordinary sugar flowers, hearts, bows, etc. As if gay people haven’t been baking the most gorgeous wedding cakes for everyone else, in immaculate taste, since forever. Seriously.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      They target gentle white Evangelicals.

      • johndoe

        Nope. They broke the law. Period.

    • Jenny Ondioline

      Homosexuals don’t target people. Did you read the story? She did a vile thing denying service to homosexuals. They didn’t “target” her in any way. In fact they wanted to make use of the service she provides. Christians like her are the ones doing the targeting. Just like she’d have provided service to people of a faith she didn’t herself belong to.

      • polyscifi

        “Did a vile thing denying service to homosexuals”
        Then how was he a long time customer?

        • Michael C

          Whether or not she usually refrains from denying service to gay customers is irrelevant. Do you really think that illegal discrimination is okay as long as it’s not a regular thing? Businesses in Washington cannot refuse on the basis of a customer’s sexual orientation ever (not even just one time) just as businesses anywhere in the U.S. cannot refuse service on the basis of a customer’s race, sex, religion, et al. ever (not even just one time).

        • Jenny Ondioline

          He was a long time customer because she was being selective about when to engage in her bigotry.

      • TheKingOfRhye

        It’s like people think that couple was making some sort of evil plot. Like they said, “hey, here’s this bakery, we know they’re Christian, and we also know ahead of time that they disapprove of gay marriage, so let’s choose THEM! Bwhahahahah! Excellent.” (like Mr. Burns)

        I guess it’s just too crazy of an idea to suppose that they wanted a cake, and thought, hey, this bakery looks nice, lets get a a cake.

    • DrewTwoFish

      Her age is entirely irrelevant.

  • bowie1

    (“I’m Catholic, for example. If I go to a restaurant to celebrate the first communion of my young twins with my wife, the restaurant owner shouldn’t be able to say, ‘I’m sorry, Bob, we do not serve Catholics,’” he said.) Wrong analogy. This is more comparable to the restaurant being required to serve communion where the owner is an atheist

    • Tangent002

      The bakers were not performing the ceremony.

    • Michael C

      This is more comparable to the restaurant being required to serve communion where the owner is an atheist

      Not really. Stutzman was not asked to provide any product or service that she didn’t already offer to other customers.

    • Croquet_Player

      Only ordained Catholic priests can offer Catholic communion.

      • bowie1

        Naturally. The point is not forcing owners to go contrary to their own moral code. This is something like doctors are faced with also – to provide abortions or euthanasia – or at least make a referral – contrary to doing no harm as in the hippocratic oath.

        • Tangent002

          You are missing the point. A doctor can decide which procedures they offer. If they offer a procedure, they cannot say that they only offer that procedure to whites.

        • Croquet_Player

          My point is that atheists cannot offer communion, whether they genuinely tried to or not. It would not be considered legitimate by people who take communion. In the same way I can’t do surgery because I’m not a qualified surgeon. Asking people to provide flowers, which they already do professionally anyway, is reasonable. I note that Barronelle Stutzamn is now operating her business within the law, and according to her own views, by simply not doing flowers for weddings. Had she done that to begin with, this problem never would have arisen.

    • Tangent002

      If I owned a restaurant and by some quirk of liturgical law, me serving a Catholic toast and cranberry juice was considered Communion, I would do it. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      There is also the difference in that religion is good and sexual immorality is bad. People should never be required to serve sexual immorality in any society.

      • johndoe

        Nobody is being asked to serve sexual immorality

        • TheKingOfRhye

          “serve sexual immorality”

          Sounds like some sort of BDSM thing. 😉

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            That’s what today’s Western secularism does. Everyone has rights to sane morality and to reject to serve immorality. You guys have serious cultural defects that need to get fixed by the Christian Church.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            What…..are you gonna tell me BSDM is immoral, or something?

      • TheKingOfRhye

        Oh, wait. Wait just a dang minute. Hold on a freakin’ minute.

        “religion is good and sexual immorality is bad”

        Um….I agree that sexual immorality is bad, but of course you and I would have VERY different ideas of what sexual immorality actually IS. But, it seriously surprises me that you would just make a blanket statement like “religion is good.” Not just “Christianity is good” but “religion is good”? Meaning ALL religions, even the ones that believe things totally different from Christianity? So, let’s just say…..Buddhism is good? Islam is good? Satanism is good?

        In my opinion, religion, in general, is neither good nor bad in itself. Both good and evil things have been done in the name of religion.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          God has already defined sexual immorality in His Word; secular nudist perv Westerners don’t define anything correctly. America’s religion(singular) is Christianity. I’m largely talking to Americans here. Other religions seek the good but are misguided. Satanism is not a religion but demon-possession. Jesus Christ taught and everyone knows that Satanism is evil. Read John chapter 8.

          Well-fed secular Americans are bored and that’s why they cannot differenciate the good and evil. Christianity is the perfect good if followed faithfully. All other religions/philosophies/ideologies contain errors and produce massive number of innocent victims if carried out faithfully. People are sinners and used the names of religions in doing evil, but Christianity rescued and helped and built up only. No one was more evil than the atheists. Read Psalm ch.14; the atheistic Soviets and atheistic China proved it.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            All right, yeah, yeah, same thing youve ever said. How about actually responding to something I have said?

            To be honest……NO. I haven’t been a “well fed American.” I’ve been poor for a good part of my life. There have been times where I haven’t known where my next meal was coming from. I’ll even say, that meal came from Christian charity. And I thank them for that, I really do. That’s what I’ve been saying though. People do good and bad things in the name of Christianity.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            I did answer you. Good. Both of us got fed by the good Christian Church and Christian charities. We must repay the good with good, not bad. If you live in USA and are healthy, you can be rich by working hard. White American pioneers created a world in which hard-working brings next meal for a long time. We are no longer illiterate peasants, the slaves to evil landlords, but free people with literacy and spacious land on Planet Earth! All we need to do is not to submit to the liberals. People are sinners and make mistakes in every way, but true followers of Jesus, the redeemed people, do only the good. Mostly. You must read the Word of God. Tell me why you don’t believe in spite of what the Church did for you. Jesus loves you. He is your Saviour. ( John ch.4)

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Tell me why you don’t believe in spite of what the Church did for you.”

            No….tell me why, if some Christians did good for me, tell me why is that a reason I should believe in Christianity. I’ve met people of other religions that have done good things for me. Why is what there religion is a factor in that?

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Religions order people to do good instead of bad, but following those to the core ends up abusing humans and causes a massive barbarism because all religions contain serious defects except for one. Biblical Christianity is one exception. We humans usually find out the reason on what drives people to do the good when they claim a name or a cause for the good works. The message of Jesus Christ is incomprably outstanding and unique and assuring and pure and infinitely loving. The reality of the forgiveness of God on humanity’s(my) sin. Please get to know Jesus. Read the Gospels and go to a Christ-centered, Bible-preaching church on Sunday. Learn about Him.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            “Learn about Him”

            I did. I have. I am. Those things are why I am an agnostic atheist. I digested all of it, and I just couldn’t believe it any more.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You didn’t learn anything on Christianity. You just read atheists’ evil junk books or watched evil cartoons alone. You are agnostic atheist because you’ve willfully chosen sins over God’s truth. You did not digest any truth at all. You can’t believe because you won’t. Read Psalms chapter 14 and John chapter 3.

            Read what the Word of God says:
            “But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the
            light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God,
            should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” ( II Corinthians chapter 4)

          • johndoe

            Atheists are no more evil than yourself. Stop insulting others

          • TheKingOfRhye

            OK, this might be kind of an irrelevant question, maybe, but I’ve been dealing with a lot of people that think these kinds of things. Would you agree with me in saying that the planet Earth is a sphere and that we have gravity? Sorry if that sounds silly, but I’ve watched some weird youtube videos……some people seem to think that if you say those things, it counteracts the Bible.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, even the Holy Bible says the world is in a shape of circle. Gravity is a phenomenon. There may be something else that we have not discovered yet. So far, it is safe to say gravity exists and do things accordingly. It is impossible to believe nothingness created everything. Planet Earth contains the Word of God in it as an artist leaves his sign on his work and a new car comes with a manual. You must read the Word of God to find the Creator God.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Well, all right. I think we’ve now found the one thing we agree on.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Of course. Keep asking honest questions to Christians. Just don’t blaspheme. It hurts more than slandering of hearers’ own parents. The first thing the secularism lost is purity and a sense of respect by losing Christianity.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            Maybe answer one of the questions I asked?

      • BigHobbit

        The difference is that religions vary considerably, there is no single definition on either religion or immorality that everyone can agree on, and that law has to apply to all.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          You are wrong. The laws that oppose the Biblical teaching are wrong and abusive. Christianity alone upholds objective truth and protects everyone’s life and grants everyone human rights and freedom. No other can do. All other religions and ideologies commit crimes against humanity one way or another. Western humanism kills babies and forces sexual immorality. This news is the proof. The West needs Christianity to stay civilized. You need to repent your sins to get saved. Read John chapter 3.

          • BigHobbit

            I am a free American citizen. I have the constitutionally guaranteed right to worship as I choose. I do NOT have to worship as YOU choose.
            You cannot objectively PROVE that YOUR beliefs are superior to MY beliefs – belief is not subject to objective and qualitative analysis.
            You cannot prove that I am wrong, based on your belief.
            Western humanism doesn’t kill anyone, nor does it “force” immorality. You are ignorant on what humanism even means.
            This news is proof that no business has a religious “right” to harm others by violating consumer protection laws.
            I am under no obligation to meet YOUR religious ideas about “repenting my sins”; according to my beliefs you are egregiously sinning in your judgment – in violation of Christ’s actual words against that very practice.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Today’s America criminalizes those who oppose sexual immorality and infanticide. Legality means not a thing to the Earthlings since Planet Earth is a barbaric world. The Western civilization has no sane morality apart from the Judeo-Christian values. As a colored person, being oppressed by the Westerners and their mental servants for opposing their insane immorality is the last thing I want. I’ve seen enough damages from racism already and now this. If they target the white Evangelicals like this, it’s only a matter of time they will attack colored people all over the world. May God deal with the bored Western rich pervs directly. They are a shame to all their parents. Not-being able to oppose the Western Sodomy is a slavery and the loss of freedom.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      If such a situation were possible, that would be illegal too.

    • BigHobbit

      Not really. The first is still a better analogy. Discrimination is all about the identity of the customer. Wedding flowers are wedding flowers – there isn’t a difference in the flowers – the difference, the discrimination, was based on an attribute of the customers, i.e., sexual orientation.

  • Nedd Kareiva

    The state of Washington has a sordid history of persecuting Christian folks. A somewhat similar situation occurred a decade or so ago with a Seattle area lady named Patty (not going to give her last name) who ran an online printing service for wedding invitations. Two men, one from Washington, the other from Canada, sought Patty’s assistance to print invitations for their nuptials in Canada. She politely replied to the couple that her conscience would not permit her to do so. In short, the two homosexuals claimed to be offended and contacted the American Communist Lawyers Union & the city’s Human (read: Homosexual) Rights Commission. In short, she closed up shop after being under vicious and malicious assault from the left as well as litigation. She eventually settled out of court. I had a short e-mail exchange with her before settlement and though she could not disclose a lot, she told me the floodgates of Satan descended upon her, simply because she politely told these two that she could not do what they asked her to.

    I told this story to a Libertarian friend of mine from suburban Seattle & provided a link to it at the time (long gone today). He was outraged at the time & told me that at the time the most these two men should have been given was $1, that to be used to make a call to another printer (not knowing at the time she could only be contacted online). I agreed with that premise and $1 is the most that Ms. Stutzman should have given to the troublemakers. They could have easily gone elsewhere.

    The example Mr. Ferguson cites about a restaurant not serving Catholics is a disingenuous one. I don’t know anyone that would discriminate against providing services of any sort to Catholics (personally, I think Ferguson is lying that he’s a Catholic – he’s likely an atheist). But to put her personal imprimatur on a bouquet of flowers (not just a general bunch available to anyone for the money) against a lifestyle that vast numbers of Americans find gross, offensive and noxious (meaning homosexuality) is something the Baron could not in good conscience do. Perhaps you could make a case if there were no other florists in the vicinity but that was not the case.

    Fortunately, there is some precedent here. A Kentucky T-shirt printer refused to put a pro-homosexual message on shirts a certain group asked them to create in a fairly recent case. The printer had a complaint filed against him but it was ultimately dismissed since the rabble rousers located another printer willing to do the work. That’s the way it should be instead of forced business which, as a free market person, I cannot endorse. Hopefully the Washington Supreme Court will concur.

    Then again, if we’re at this juncture where someone is compelled to accept money from a person or persons it elects not to do business with, perhaps we should adopt an idea Ambassador Alan Keyes wrote in a column earlier this year. Maybe Baronelle should have told Mr. Ingersoll that she’ll take his money and put her stamp of approval in terms of a pro-homosexual message on the bouquet he wanted but in turn 100% of his payment for the flowers would go as a gift to a pro-traditional marriage group seeking to rescind homosexual marriage in America. Or is that something tyrants like Fergie will also seek to prohibit?

    This reminds me of Adam & Eve in the garden. The Lord told them they could eat of every tree He set up for them. Every one (my guess is that there were dozens, even hundreds, of trees). Every one BUT one: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam & Eve just had to eat the one of many they were told not to. So they did and, if you are a Christian, you probably know the rest of the story.

    Most businesses, as part of their business, necessitating a personal message on the product sold have no issue with most of those messages. They don’t care if there is a certain hobby involved, a certain sport, a certain club, church, whatever. As a Christian, if I ran a flower shop, I would have no issue whatsoever wishing the finest upon most anyone seeking my services. But I’m not going to put a message of blessing on two homosexuals than I would witches, child molesters, pedophiles, etc. In other words, I’ll give my unconditional commitment to put the very best product out to 98-99% of everything & everyone that I’m asked to do. Why should I be punished for the 1-2% of issues my conscience feels uncomfortable creating?

    We should remember the words of President John Adams. “Our Constitution was made for a moral & religious people. It is wholly inadequate to that of any other.” Homosexuality is a moral issue. It still is, regardless of what the U.S. Supreme Court says. The 1st Amendment protects religious freedom, except not in states like Oregon & Washington. Apparently Tyrant Ferguson thinks otherwise. The Washington state Constitution is clear on religious freedom, though I don’t wish to tie up more space and elaborate. You can look it up, if you like. A favorable ruling is necessary from the court to put tyrants like Fergie in his proper place.

    I recognize some homosexuals and homosexual-friendly posters will disagree with me and post all sorts of points, which is fine but I will not be responding to them. My position is firm and sans apology. Hopefully, ADF will successfully defend Ms. Stutzman and Tyrant Ferguson will, like the tyrant who put the Oregon bakers out of business, lose this case (and reelection to his position the next time he reruns for office).

    • TrueChristian

      She either respects the right of others or she doesn’t. Sounds like she got what she deserved.

    • TrueChristian

      a bit tl;dr but considering the landmark case for civil rights in Washington state involves someone being denied a Slurpee at a 7-11, your argument that this wasn’t a big enough violation of rights to bother with doesn’t wash.

      All businesses know they can’t refuse a customer because of their creed (even those that have marriage regardless of sex), their sexes (no one of the couple isn’t the ‘wrong’ sex) or their sexual orientation before they advertise to the public.

      Arlene’s Flowers now runs legally just as the AG asked way back in March of 2013 when they could have done so for the cost of simply promising to continue to operate just as they are now. The owner has too much pride and hubris to allow it though – every single dime of cost is because of her own pig-headedness.

      • Nedd Kareiva

        I said I would not be responding to anyone but considering your title as “True Christian”, perhaps you can enlighten me as to what you believe is the definition of such. I don’t know about you but calling someone “pig-headed” isn’t very Christlike to me.

        • TrueChristian

          Pointing out someone’s problems are self created and that they are being stubborn is the kind of thing Jesus pointed out often.

          She is behaving exactly as the AG asked her to over 3 years ago but won’t promise to just continue same to save herself a lot of money that she complains she can’t afford to lose – if that’s not pig-headed, what is? Would you prefer ‘cut off her nose to spite her face’?

          • Nedd Kareiva

            So the state (gov’t) is always right in your opinion. Got it.

          • TrueChristian

            Since the state is the people of Washington, yeah. We recognized the rights we want and pass the laws protecting those rights.

          • Nedd Kareiva

            OK, phony Christian/phaggot, got it.

  • Tangent002

    If you operate a business of public accommodation, that business must adhere to the laws of the state in which you operate, regardless of the personal opinions of the people who run it. For example, what is ‘clean enough’ in your kitchen at home might not pass muster for the health and safety standards in the restaurant you own. You can argue that the pink Himalayan salt crystal sterilizes the environment all you want, but that belief won’t mean much if you leave a tub of unrefrigerated mayonnaise out in the prep table overnight. You don’t have to have wheelchair access to your home, but you have to provide it for your business, even if your religion tells you that handicapped people are ‘defective’.

  • Liberal Elitist

    I remember back in the ’60s how my uncle took offense to the notion that he was suddenly required by law to allow black customers the use of his Whites Only restrooms in his gas station.

    • JustNTyme

      Exactly right.
      There are lots of photos of those signs that said WHITES ONLY.
      Just like there are lots of photos of signs that say STRAIGHTS ONLY.

      Oh, wait,…

      • TrueChristian

        Rights are rights – that they didn’t put out signs means nothing, there were laws about how to treat ‘known homosexuals’ in many cities and states.

      • Liberal Elitist

        The presence, or not, of a physical sign is irrelevant.

      • Michael C

        A sign was not required when the police would just swoop in and arrest gay customers. Yes, that used to happen.

        Laws protecting racial minorities from discrimination have had such a positive impact on how our society treats people of color over the course of the past half century.

        Laws protecting gay and trans men and women are needed for the same reason.

        • Kevin Quillen

          being queer in public should get you arrested just like being drunk in public. Both are choices. Sin cannot be condoned

          • Michael C

            Tell that to JustNTyme

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      Being colored is God’s creation. Being homosexual is an immorality that needs repentance to get saved. Don’t put them together in the same category.

      • Liberal Elitist

        Whether or not “being colored” is god(s)’ creation is irrelevant. My uncle sold gas to black people as readily as he sold it to white people.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          Anyone can do that. He would not paint a car with words that would degrade black people, no matter how it was demanded. It’s the same thing. This lady served everyone but just refused to honor the sin she knows as abhorrent in God’s sight.

          • Liberal Elitist

            Nothing sinful about marriage.

          • Kevin Quillen

            right, it is just the queer consummation.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            God’s Word says that same-sex union is not marriage but a detestable abhorrent sin. Secular Americans are being bored and invented a new way to bully a group of innocent people(Christians) by demanding mankind to bend the truth and bend the human conscience. Americans are not greater than the Germans. Get some lessons from last century’s history.

          • johndoe

            Your book matters not. We are not a theocracy and never will be. You have no idea what bullying is…

      • johndoe

        Colored is a racist term not used in the USA.

    • TheKingOfRhye

      Did you, or your uncle, live in the South? I never dealt with anything like that, but then I was born in Michigan in 1977….my parents don’t have any stories like that. Though, maybe they do, but in reverse. My mom grew up in a black neighborhood in Ann Arbor, and I’ve heard scary stories about that. I guess my point is, I’m really glad it’s better than that now.

    • Mark0H

      Oh yeah, the familiar “someone in my family wouldn’t serve blacks” anecdote.

      It wounds like a lie, probably because it is.

      You gals ought to realize that if every one of you repeats the same anecdote, it’s pretty obvious you are incapable of telling the truth.

      • Liberal Elitist

        I don’t know what you’re talking about. My uncle sold gas to blacks just as readily as he sold it to whites.

    • Kevin Quillen

      your uncle was a racist, a choice, just like queer

  • Trilemma

    “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. Luke 6:22-23 – ESV

    Shouldn’t Christians be praising God that He found this couple worthy to experience the joy of persecution? Shouldn’t more Christians be rushing out to be florists and bakers so they too can experience the joy of persecution?

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      It is sad that Christians have to be persecuted by the Sodomites in a former Christendom like the USA. If Christians give up here, global children will get hedonism’s Nazi Youth education from the Sodomic West. God also commanded His people to battle for justice. ( Proverbs ch.24)

      • Trilemma

        It’s sad that anyone should be persecuted. If only everyone would live by Romans 12:18.

        If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. -NIV

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          Apostle Paul could not keep peace always although he was utmost loving, because people are sinful and love falsehood. Read Romans ch.1 and Galatians ch. 1 – 2 as well. Truth – God is holy and that homosexuality is sin and gay wedding must not be served by Christians – must be proclaimed regardless of the society’s attitude. Peace is not an unconditional preference; truth-telling is. LGBT and their supporters need the truth-proclamation for them to get saved.

  • TrueChristian

    Was at the hearing, she lost big time. 7 of the Judges were asking questions about how this sort of discrimination would work and how they could tell ‘good discrimination’ from ‘bad’.

    She has been operating her business legally for over 3½ years. She will just have to continue doing so once the verdict is returned against her.

    • Fang

      Looks like old “Oshtur, the Comic Book Girl” has reincarnated herself again.

      • TrueChristian

        Sure is! Want to know why I was blocked? The CINO running this blog said that Christians that don’t agree with his interpretation of Scriptures are blocked. I could be an atheist and welcomed, a Christian isn’t. Total contradiction of his ‘about’ statement but then, who expects anything from CINOs – people who in the name of Christ do the Devil’s work?

        But I was at the hearing, she lost big time. Soon the ruling will come out and it will be over and she will be running her business just as she as for the last 3 and a half years.

        Used a toss away twitter account – I occasionally read here but since it has nothing to do with Christ or Christianity it really isn’t worth responding to.

        • Fang

          That’s so sad. A grown man addicted to comic books is the ideal person to discuss serious issues about religion and politics. There’s nothing the Christians of America need more than a comics addict to tell us how to be REAL Christians. I’m going to tell my pastor to stop preaching from the New Testament and start preaching about the glories of homosexuality, because Oshtur, the comic book guy on the web, said we were going to hell if we didn’t kiss up to homosexuals.

          Think how many lives you’ve changed by all your posts. The Christians of America hang on every word you post.

          I certainly hope you don’t get banned again.

          • TrueChristian

            Addicted to comics? I haven’t read a comic in decades, but then just lying rather than dealing with facts is what I’d expect from a supporter of this site.

            Oh I will get banned again, this is a CINO board, they don’t like the fact that Christians realize that marry and marriage is an of-this-world-thing only – fretting about it is like worrying about how many fibers to have in your clothes or eating shrimp. There is none of either in the next world and everyone will either be same sex or no sex – either one, it amounts to the same.

            Just wanted to see how the discussion was going. Those on the right side have the advantage I see, and the judges made it clear that using religious prejudice as an excuse for illegal discrimination didn’t sway them in the least.

          • Jenny Ondioline

            Excuse me for asking but what does CINO stand for?

          • Trilemma

            Christian In Name Only

          • Croquet_Player

            Surely, as a good Christian, you have no need to insult people but can prove them mistaken or wrong by virtue of superior argument alone.

      • TrueChristian

        You are just a sock puppet for Guest, right?

  • TrueChristian

    As the judges pointed out, the claim of ‘speech’ is specious – there is no difference between the flowers for a opposite sex wedding then there is for a same sex other than the claims of the creator. If that excuse was allowed it would mean anyone could claim anything as being sexual orientation specific. “I don’t sell same sex dinners!” Allowing this claim would undermine civil rights laws across the board.

    Even the libertarian law professor Eugene Volokh said this would be a terrible case to go forward because of this reason. I mean what would the excuse be if the gay couple just said “Ok we’ll take straight custom wedding floral arrangements then”

    Hint: they look exactly the same.

  • Darlene

    She has conducted herself like a Christian and a true lady. We’re living in a period that is clearly separating the nominal pew-fillers from the real people of faith. The perpetrators of injustice against her and other people of faith will have to face the ultimate Judge at some point.

    • TrueChristian

      Please a Christian would no more refuse commerce to a gay couple than they would to a Jew or a Samaritan.

      If a Christian can’t sell something legally in good conscience they wouldn’t offer it to the public at all.

      • Kevin Quillen

        selling something is one thing, participating is another.

        • TrueChristian

          No one asked anyone to participate at the marriage. Christ said giving idolatrous coins with the pictures of a pagan god in tithe to his earthly kingdom is ok, so is giving advertised floral services to a customer that responds to the advertisement.

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            First, she has sold flowers to these people before and would be willing to sell them flowers again. Second, she felt that by making floral arrangements specifically for this wedding, that would show her support and indirectly participate in the wedding.

          • TrueChristian

            First, the standard is full enjoyment of all services. Just because a business would seat you in the restaurant but not the lunch counter doesn’t mean there wasn’t discrimination.

            And the owner knew they couldn’t refuse customers because of their beliefs, sex or sexual orientation before they offered custom wedding florals for sale. Every customer has a constitutional right to not share her Southern Baptist beliefs about marriage and still buy the advertised product.

            Her solution is the easiest – she feels she can’t sell such services to the public and respect their civil rights legally so she no longer offers them to the public.

            Problem solved.

    • Liberal Elitist

      There must be only three or four “real people of faith” in the entire United States. Pretty impressive.

      • Darlene

        Who are you to judge?
        You’re nobody.

      • Kevin Quillen

        I’m with Darlene

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Ms. Stutzman – a champion of freedom and the truth’s right to exist in the United States of America. The issue is the rights to the truth and not just the foreedom of conscience. No truth = No freedom or fairness. (John ch.8) America has become a sad nation where Sodomites bully the Christians this century – a result of decades of hedonistic education by the liberals. No Christianity = No lawfulness. Where there is Christianity, there is truth and light and life and fairness.

    • johndoe

      No. Shes a champion of discrimination against the gay community. You’ve got it all wrong…this is a case of christians bullying gays.

      • Croquet_Player

        Grace is one of the special people. Don’t go there. All her posts are almost identical. Bless her heart. 😉

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          Stop bullying. USA needs human rights and freedom today.

          • Tangent002

            Legal same-sex marriage falls under human rights and freedom. Thanks!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Legality means nothing when the laws are immoral. Christians have rights to refuse to serve gay wedding because same-sex “marriage” is a sin and not marriage, according to the eternal Word of God. The West will have to ban Christianity and the Holy Bible if the culture wants to continue the evil. The state must not force people to do evil. The West is being well-fed and bored and is discriminating against the Christians this century instead of colored people. Tyranny must be opposed by the free people. The USA committed crimes against humanity by persecuting the Christians.

          • Tangent002

            Lack of preferential treatment is not persecution.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Secular Americans are malicious and they take delight in bending Christians’ clear conscience, and that’s why they single out white Evangelical Christians for bullying this century. It is also a method to control the population. Once people’s conscience is made bent forcibly or bribed with filthy money, they become submissive to villains. Evil type of Americans know it like Nazi Germans did.

            This lady has a human right to refuse to serve gay wedding. Secular Americans have nothing noble to protect in themselves and that’s why they don’t understand religious people. Immorality is what the secular Westerners live for, although they don’t die for it as their belief. You guys need Christianity to be fair. The West’s unconditional support of Sodomy over all things is abnormal and evil in every way.

          • Tangent002

            You think allowing discrimination against the LGBT community is ‘fair’?

            LOL!

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            The LGBT community needs calls for repentance for them to get saved, not the endorsement of the sinful lifestyles. Today’s Western culture is too immoral you guys are not aware how Nazi-evil it is to force Christians to serve gay wedding. Wake up.

          • Tangent002

            Y’all have more in common with the Nazis. They hated gays too.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Gays are hated by every society because of their destructive impacts on human life. Christendom alone taught loving and safe attitude towards gays. Now the goodness is being repayed by the evil of the gay supporters. The West also abuses children by letting the pervs have access to them. All children have rights to innocence. Your culture has a deadly defects like others. Get it fixed by the Church to be civilized, as usual.

          • Tangent002

            Your comment is one of the main reasons I do not believe in your God. Your world-view is far too black-and-white and far too full of hatred.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You don’t believe in God because you prefer immorality over the truth. Read the Holy Bible and repent of your unbelief to get saved. ( John ch.3) Your favorite Japanese anime only brainwashes you with New Age or something worse; they have no life-saving truth. You need the Word of God to obtain life.

          • Tangent002

            I’m done participating in your neurosis for the day.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Homosexuality is sin. I pray that you will repent and live: “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” ( Romans ch.6)

          • johndoe

            Do you even know what the definition of sodomy is?

          • johndoe

            What are you even talking about?

          • johndoe

            Nope. Gays are hated by religious bigots.

          • johndoe

            Gays are not hated by all societies…just the bigoted ones. Stop trolling and insulting Americans

          • johndoe

            Your god is not everyones god. No theocracy here. You need to ask for forgiveness

          • johndoe

            So even more insults from the foreign troll. Is this what christianity is to you? Insulting others?

          • Tangent002

            She reminds me of the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You guys should stop bullying. Stop watching TV and start reading the Word of God.

          • johndoe

            As business owners, they do not. Part of the legalities of owning a business. We are well fed due to the diligence of our farmers and ranchers. Christians in America do not know real persecution.

          • Croquet_Player

            Have a nice day, Grace.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Please don’t work to persecute the Christians in USA. It’s the most heinous and ridiculous picture in the entire human history on Planet Earth. Few thing can be this perverse. Let them keep the Word of God and the freedom of a clear conscience.

          • Croquet_Player

            Grace, I’m sure you’re a very nice person and I have no wish to argue with you. If I thought you could be persuaded by reason and evidence, I would give it a try, but I’m afraid I don’t feel you have the capacity to consider other points view, nor do I wish to upset you by presenting ideas that conflict with your uniquely rigid world view. I love my Christian family and friends very much, and I have no wish to persecute anyone. Nor, I must add do they feel “persecuted” in any way as U.S. Christians. So, I simply offer you my very best wishes for your health and happiness.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are not Christian. Your religion is a hedonism. All secularists are that way, whatever they claim to be. Your culture has blinded you. Repent of the depravity and return to God to gain life. Christians do not stay in sinful lifestyles. ( Romans ch.1-8, 1 John ch.1-5)

          • johndoe

            Its sad that you think you are a god.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You think intelligent Grace does not have the capacity to consider other viewpoints? This from someone who uses wiki and Google as her sources? Bwahahahahhaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Jenny Ondioline

            It’s funny to see you say “stop bullying” in the very same paragraph where you bully homosexuals by calling their marriages “Satanic”. I don’t expect this will ever dawn on you.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Homosexuality is a sin, and gay wedding is a Satanic blasphemous ritual that opposes the Word of God. (Leviticus ch.18-20, Romans ch.1) The society must not force anyone to serve such a depraved sin against God’s truth and against human conscience, especially a Christendom like the USA. It is a treason against God and against human rights and the nation’s foundation. I tell you to stop bullying me because you guys come to me by a bunch. Americans play fair. You guys are Non-Americans and should stop falsely pretending to be American. All of you. American society is being bored of having everything for the longest time, and that’s why it is acting like a villain this century by singling out the white Evangelical Christians for bullying. The evil must get opposed by God’s people.

          • johndoe

            Stop insulting. The christian invaders slaughtered and enslaved native Americans. Gay weddings are not satanic. They are legal. Matters not what your god says.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            I’m not gay, but I really would like to attend a gay Satanic wedding.

      • Kevin Quillen

        if you are born a certain way(skin color) you should not be discriminated against. If you choose a behavior(queer, drunk,steal etc.) you pay the price

        • johndoe

          Homosexuality isnt something that you choose. facepalm….

          • Kevin Quillen

            proof please.

  • Robert

    So if she refused to do a flower arrangement for the birthday party of the K.k.k. how many think she would have got in trouble.for discriminating against them

    • TrueChristian

      KKK is an ideology and not covered by the state civil rights laws. But again, why would she not do a flower arrangement for someone in the KKK?

      • TheKingOfRhye

        I’m a former Christian, now agnostic atheist, but I’d just like to say, I’m loving your comments right now. You’re hitting the nail on the head, good job. 😀

        • TrueChristian

          I was at the hearing, she lost. No constitutional way to rationalize having one person’s rights superseded another’s.

          Can’t sell something to the public legally don’t offer it to the public. If she has things she can’t sell to people of all faiths make s private club if those people and offer just them the product.

          Pretty simple solutions.

          • TheKingOfRhye

            So many times, the simplest solution is the best. Occam’s razor or something like that….

      • Kevin Quillen

        you do realize that being queer is a choice, don’t you? Their is NO evidence that it is anything but choice. Twin studies prove it. Should not be protected like skin color or anything you cannot change(born with). Christians should never obey unjust law that goes against the Bible. PERIOD

        • TrueChristian

          Whether you think that sexual orientation should be a civil right (including yours) is irrelevant, the people of Washington state disagree and have recognized it as such by constitutional democratic processes.

          And saying that Christians shouldn’t obey the law or respect the first amendment rights of others goes against the Words of Jesus and Paul multiple times.

          Temper tantrums don’t sway the Lord or free us from being bound by the conditions of the new covenant.

          If she can’t in conscience sell marriage services to the public while respecting their lawful rights then don’t offer them to the public. Things you can only sell after religious judgement are what private clubs are for.

          Until the first amendment is repealed that is the best legal option.

    • Ambulance Chaser

      Racists are not a protected class.

      • Kevin Quillen

        why not? Queers are. both choices

        • Ambulance Chaser

          Because the law specifies who is and is not a protected class. If you think it should be, lobby your representative.

          I’ll ignore your snide comment about being gay being a choice because it’s neither true nor relevant.

  • Peter Leh

    My Fellow Christians… Please know the law or don’t go into business.

    • Grace Kim Kwon

      You are not Christian. You have no fellow Christians. You need to repent of your sins and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. Christians do not compromise. ( 1 John )

      • TrueChristian

        Then how do they sell anything to anyone since all of us are sinners?

        • Tangent002

          I guess some sins are worse than others.

          • TrueChristian

            that’s CINO talk, violations of the law are violations of the law, even the tiniest part not followed is like it all was not followed. And we know what sin is – failing to Love God, Others, and Ourselves perfectly. That is why we petition God to forgive us our failures in love in the same way we forgive others who have failed to love us. Those running around pointing fingers at others need to be careful, it can end even worse that with scissors.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Forcing Christians to bake homosexual cakes is lawlessness. Lawless nations cannot talk about violations of laws.

          • TrueChristian

            No one is forcing them to do anything. Try and think for once – if they can’t sell something legally to the public why are they offering for sale to the public at all?

            If they can only sell something to people of certain beliefs they need to set up a club – find the ‘right believing’ people first and then invite just them to buy their wares.

            But then the idea of personal rights is a relatively newer one and third world cultures often don’t have it.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Yes, every sin is hell-deserving, but some sins are more oppressive than others. There are different kinds of punishments for different kinds of sins, although unbelief( in God) is unpardonable. You must repent of your sin to get saved. Read the Gospel of John.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          Christians do any honest business with anyone but do not produce anything that comfirms sins such as baking homosexual cakes. LGBT people can come and buy bread in Christians’ bakery but they cannot demand Christians to bake cakes for gay weddings. Producing things for or serving gay weddings in any way is a treason against God, like worshipping idols.

          Today’s secular Westerners lost the sense of freedom because their culture is too sick immoral. It’s a tragedy for the entire world to deal with Sodomic Westerners this century instead of racist Westerners. Give mankind some break. No more slaveryt by rich Western pervs. Secular West thinks they can do any evil just because they are too powerful and is not sorry for any atrocities they have done against the colored people.

          • TrueChristian

            What is a ‘homosexual cake’? If you are trying to imply there is something different about the cake please explain otherwise the same sex couple can just ask for a heterosexual cake.

          • Bob Johnson

            “Christians do any honest business with anyone but do not produce anything that confirms sins …”

            So, can Marriot Hotels, a Mormon owned business (and Mormons are very much against same sex marriage) refuse honeymoon rentals to a gay couple? Can they refuse to provide accommodation to any legally married gay couple on the grounds that sin may occur?

          • Fur Hunter

            Bob…..Again……You made an excellent point. Not quite sure, but aren’t Mormons against drinking, too? If so….why are there a bars in the hotels and restaurants where they serve liquor??? Is this called selective Christianity??? When will people understand that if you have a business open to the public and it is NOT religiously affiliated, you must serve ALL the public, not just a select part of it. That’s why the laws changed about restaurants refusing to serve blacks back in the day. It is exactly the same thing. But some people are too ignorant and uneducated to get it.

          • Fur Hunter

            Grace…..You need to go back to high school and take US Government all over again and understand the meaning of separation of church and state. When you get out of that class you just might….just might understand the issue here. Now….go back and take the class so you can speak intelligently on the subject.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            Separation of church and state only means no dominance by any particular denomination. American founders and forefathers never imagined anything other than a good Christian America. USA should not persecute the Christians just because they refuse to serve a sick sin. USA has no morality but only decadence, apart from Christianity.

          • johndoe

            So.e of the founders were deists. The bible isnt needed for morality.

          • Fur Hunter

            Grace….this is what you said in your post: ‘Separation of church and state only means no dominance by any particular denomination.’ WRONG!!!! It means that no religious institution or beliefs will influence or be placed in the government. They will remain separate. Did you go to high school? Did you fail US Government class? If you want religion in your government…..move to the Middle East where it exists and I am sure you will love wearing a burka.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            USA and all other excellent British colonies were created to spread the Christian religion and for no other reason. USA is a theocracy. Read your Declaration of Independence. You Americans became very weird by losing Christianity just like a man who lost his own conscience. USA has only homosexuality and Nazi killing of infants and filthy money-making as its core value system if the nation has no Christianity. You need Christianity for goodness and sanity, not just for salvation.

            The Muslims despise you guys because secular Westerners are parent-shaming nudists. Wear something properly in public places like your forefathers did instead of placing sexual pervs in women’s restrooms to endanger women and children. Then the Muslims and all others will start respecting Americans again. Your racist forefathers were better than today’s Americans in every way. Honor your father and your mother. ( The Ten Commandments) You must repent of your sin to get saved. Read Gospel of John chapter 3.

          • johndoe

            There’s no theocracy in America. There you go again insulting Americans. Is that what your bible teaches? Its become quite evident rhat you are a troll.

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          The West’s problem is making the demands of LGBT supporters the unconditional top priority. Baking a cake of gay wedding is a moral issue, and the same-sex couples should not ask Christian bakers to bake a cake for such sinful occasion since it is like asking Christian artists to create idol statues. If rejected by Christians, they should just give up and ask some others instead of screaming discrimination, since skin colors are not like inclination to abnormal sexuality. Otherwise, peaceful co-existence is impossible. The liberals desire complete control of mankind or a civil war against the Christians, so it seems.

          Nations should set up laws for religious freedom so that religious people’s rights would be protected as well. People should have rights to say no to immorality. This whole thing is fishy because it is always only the white Christian Evangelicals that are being in trouble. Liberals act similar. Those who placed this lady in trouble are acting like the media who supported Hillary Clinton unconditionally. The double standard is too visible. It’s white Biblical Christians vs. white villains, as it was before. Silence is condoning.

          • TrueChristian

            Your stereotyping is tiresome and its very obvious you have no hide how the concept of ‘rights’ work. Everyone has religious freedom, even those who’s beliefs include that people can marry regardless of their sexes. The business owner invited the public knowing that every responding person had these rights.

            If they want to sell things to the public then the seller has to respect their rights while doing that, something an easterner like you obviously can’t understand.

      • johndoe

        Who are you to tell someone that they aren’t christian? Are you god?

      • Fur Hunter

        Grace….Throw that stupid book away you keep quoting from. It is NOT the word of God. God did not write the first word in it or inspire it either. It was written by MEN….Get it? NOT GOD!!!…..Get it? It is full of errors. Because of the verse….’Go to the four corners of the earth and preach the gospel’….the church taught and it was believed to be the truth……that the earth was FLAT!!!! If God had written that verse He would have said….’Go and encircle the earth and preach the gospel’…..and we would have known centuries earlier that the earth was ROUND!!!!……NOT FLAT!……Get it???? And by the way, Paul, who wrote Romans, regarding homosexuality, was a latent and closeted homosexual who hated himself. That’s why he wrote the stupid stuff he did……Get it?

        • Grace Kim Kwon

          You are wrong. The Holy Bible is the Word of God and the Church liberated the world from barbarism and tyranny. Today’s secular Westerners just want to believe that everyone was or is as depraved as they are, but that’s not the case. You are incapable of understanding anything because of your sick immoral culture. You guys are too well-fed and bored and rich and that’s the only reason secular West is bullying the innocent Christians this century. No slavery to perv childless West. You guys were normal only when you adhered Christianity.

          • johndoe

            You mean the innocent christians who slaughtered and enslaved native Americans?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You need to look up David Brainerd.

          • johndoe

            And?

          • Fur Hunter

            Grace…..You know. I feel sorry for you. Why? Because you are going to live and remain ignorant and intolerant for the rest of your life. Why? Because you are too lazy and uneducated to do the research and find out the true facts. Example: Who told you THAT BOOK…the BuyBull…is the word of God? Who? Did God come down to you and tell you? Well if He did, I think you need to check yourself into an institution. But….if you tell me that the church or your minister told you….I am laughing. Why? Because MEN LIE!! Ge it? Men are lying Ba$$$$$$. So. Now I ask you again. Who told you THAT BOOK is the word of God? Grace….do the research or stay ignorant and believe blindly the rest of your life. Goodbye, Grace. Stay in your ignorance and intolerance.

          • Grace Kim Kwon

            You are the proof all Americans need the Holy Bible for proper literacy.

          • johndoe

            Bible does not instill literacy.

    • Musky

      Respect Christians’ consciences, even if you don’t have one.

      • TrueChristian

        A Christian conscience wouldn’t offer to sell things illegally. If they can’t sell to people of all faiths why are they offering it to the public with their constitutional right to be any faith?

    • Fur Hunter

      Peter….Love your sarcasm…..Keep it up. I chuckled. Especially after reading Grace’s post responding to yours. Grace needs to go back to high school and retake US Government class again. Maybe she will pass it this time. Bob also put her in her place with his terrific post.

  • Kevin Quillen

    Christian businesses should all become “clubs”. To purchase product one must join by paying a membership fee. Said fee would go to funding Christian organizations that fight against queer marriage and other anti-christian activities. This removes the the “public accommodation problem.

    • Vicar Amelia ✞

      what you just detailed is called being a Private Business, of which that option has been on the table for her this entire time.

      And you can’t fight marriage, it’s been around for hundred of years

      • TrueChristian

        No private businesses can be public accommodations or private clubs, depends on who they advertise to:

        Public accommodation: advertise to the general public while respecting their civil rights, can’t apply a civil rights related test to responding customers to actually buy the advertised product. That the owner believes they can’t marry someone of the same sex has nothing to do with a customer that beliefs that they can.

        Private club: find the people they can serve first as a club and them make the invitation to buy to just the club members.

        • Vicar Amelia ✞

          That the owner believes they can’t marry someone of the same sex has nothing to do with a customer that beliefs that they can.”

          And this has nothing to do with anyone’s beliefs that anyone else can get married.

          Buying a cake or flowers has nothing to do with getting married. It has to deal with a business having a product that a customer wants to pay for to then own.

          • TrueChristian

            Ah I thought you were defending the discrimination by calling it a ‘private business’. In the words of Emily Latilla:

            “Never mind”

  • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

    Ferguson compared the situation to being refused to be served at a restaurant. He did not say, “I’m Catholic, for example. If I go to a restaurant to celebrate the first communion of my young twins with my wife, the restaurant owner shouldn’t be able to say, ‘I’m sorry, Bob, We do not celebrate the Catholic mass at this shop’. Instead the restaurant owner must be forced to recite the words of the mass IRRESPECTIVE of whether he agrees with them. We don’t care that he’s not Catholic. The point is that he cannot refuse the mass and submission to the holy father and keep his restaurant business that pretends to serve Catholics.”

    • Michael C

      Stutzman has not been asked to say anything. She has not been asked to bless any wedding. She has not been asked to lend her support or approval for any wedding. She was only asked for a product and/or service that she already willingly provides for any and every straight customer.

      If a gay couple entered a restaurant to celebrate their anniversary, would they be forcing the chef to celebrate their relationship simply by ordering food off of the menu? Of course not.

      The real issue is this;

      Should it be legal for businesses to deny gay people employment, housing and public accommodations (service at stores and restaurants, etc) just because they’re gay?

      If your answer is no, discriminating against people just because they’re gay is wrong, then Stutzman has lost her case.

      If you think that, yes, businesses should be permitted to fire employees just because they’re gay, landlords should be permitted to refuse to rent an apartment to a tenant just because they’re gay, and stores and restaurants should be able to kick people out just because they’re gay, then guess what… this kind of thing is still legal in most of the United States. Only a minority of states and cities protect gay people from discrimination.

      • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

        I don’t like you. Get on with your life, burn brightly on the broad road to hell. Why must I be your friend for the journey? I’ll not mourn your death, nor provide flowers. You shouldn’t care. You’re supposed to be so full of love and tolerance. If you’re not, why should I tolerate your whining?

        • TrueChristian

          Hmmmm the one whining is Stutzman.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That’s not whining, that’s winning.

          • TrueChristian

            Well for Olympic quality whiners going for the gold I guess that would be the case.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            That would belong to homosexuals crying over a cake while their counterparts are being thrown off roofs in Muslim lands.

          • TrueChristian

            And Christians are murdered in Muslim lands. Why that would justify people calling themselves Christians whining about being caught committing illegal acts here I have no idea.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Doesn’t equate. It’s not a far step from Christians having their livelihood taken away to being slaughtered in the streets, just like the Nazis did to the Jews. You know you have an agenda. Own it.

          • TrueChristian

            Both such drama queens! Every cost is by her own choice, she could have just promised to run her business exactly as she has for the last 3¾ years and not paid a dime.

            But then you compared expecting a business to obey the law with people being thrown off roofs so I guess it’s some kind of consistency.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            She has run her business like that. She sells flowers to both gay and straight patrons. She would not service a same sex union wedding regardless of who the patrons were (straight or homosexual) because she doesn’t offer that service. I compared taking away someone’s livelihood and threatening them with jail to what the Nazis did to the Jews. Check out your history books. It’s all there.

          • TrueChristian

            No there are only weddings. Can’t add a civil rights class to the front to justify discrimination. If the business makes floral arrangements for weddings it does regardless the creed, race, sexes involved or sexual orientation.

            And since she has been operating legally and as her ‘conscience’ can accept for 3¾ years just as she was initially asked by the state AGs office the hysteria about being put out of business falls away too.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The Bible addresses this topic in Corinthians. A cake is just a cake until someone expresses whether or not it’s offered to idols. Same sex union cakes fall into that category.

          • TrueChristian

            Actually Corinthians says it’s ok regardless as did Jesus. But that doesn’t matter, there are no ‘creed’exceptions to civil rights laws from the first federal case in 1968 forward.

            If she can’t sell to people of all creeds it’s not something to offer to the public with their freedom of religion. Make a private club of those with the ‘right’ creed and offer to sell just to the membership. Or just do what she has done for the last 3¾ years, not offer custom wedding floral arrangement to the public at all.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No it doesn’t, and we are also reminded in Acts and the books of John, etc. to keep ourselves from idols.

          • TrueChristian

            That we disagree is immaterial, the owner’s religious prejudice doesn’t allow civil rights discrimination against the public as per multiple court rulings. If they can’t sell something legally in good conscience they just won’t sell it, like the Jewish owner’s deli chooses not to sell pork to anyone.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You are expressing your own prejudice against Christians. In fact, you probably are unaware that you are using the exact same lingo about Christians that Nazis used against Jews.

          • TrueChristian

            Please I am a Christian and a Christian would have sold the product they advertised. And since it is the business with the religious prejudice refusing to legally sell a publicly advertised product to people with different beliefs you’ve got your example backwards.

            Either sell it like an American respecting the customer’s religious freedom or don’t offer it to the public as a group at all. Been the law in Washington since the 1940’s no business owner has an excuse to claim ignorance.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Christians would not violate the Biblical commandment to have nothing to do with idols.

          • TrueChristian

            then you’re saying a American Christian would never offer a service that put them in that position. Either way the customer can buy any service the business offers whether their usage involves idols or not – basic civil rights. There couldn’t even be a law that facilitated religious prejudice against the customer like that.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Christians in any country have the right to have a livelihood. The gaystapo are intentionally targeting Christians. Some guy from WA who used to post here bragged about how his gay group targeted Barronelle when they learned she was a Christian. She was good to Rob for all those years and then he did this to her. I guess it’s a case of no good deed goes unpunished.

          • TrueChristian

            Since we know there was no targeting in this case sounds more like malicious gossip because that is not the case here.

            Everyone can run a business legally, no one has a right to run one illegally. Can’t use religious prejudice of the public to sell food from ‘white only’ drive-ins, can’t refuse to sell meats to just clients of a certain religion, can’t refuse to sell wedding services to those who beliefs allow them to have marriages and weddings that a Southern Baptist’s might not.

            And this business is running legally and in keeping with the owner’s conscience, has been for 3¾ years exactly as the state AG’s office asked her to in their first letter.

            It’s the owner with the religious prejudices, it’s her responsibility to run it legally regardless.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            What are you talking about that “we” know there was no targeting? You may not know, but “we” know. It was written about on a Seattle site.

            Go target some Muslim businesses and let’s see how brave you are.

          • TrueChristian

            I doubt that is true – the customer was long known to the owner, it was the AG’s office that first, not the customer and if this were true there would be more than just one person claiming it was true.

            And Muslim-owned businesses don’t illegally discriminate do they? – the customer would have bought the services offered, and that would have been that. This woman became famous for being a criminal, people following the law usually don’t.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You’re wrong on all counts.

            There’s footage of Muslim bakeries refusing homosexual customers – not just the wedding cakes, but all business – but the gaystapo is too chicken to do anything about it.

          • TrueChristian

            Oh that prank video? Yeah even the author had to admit that it was a fraud – most businesses said they’d gladly serve him, one of the businesses didn’t make cakes, one the employee didn’t understand what he was asking, and the other had a customer say they had made he and his partner not only their wedding cake but their first anniversary cake. Add on top of that it was done in a place that didn’t have sexual orientation civil rights – any business could have legally rejected them but none did.

            And since no one other than you has said there was any persecution of the owner, not even her, there’s no point in bringing it up again until you have some shred of proof. It was online?, give me a link. Until that happens I will consider it a dark fantasy.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No, you’re wrong. That didn’t happen in the footage I’m talkind about.

            You are also incorrectly categorizing what happened to Barronelle. You can even go to the Facebook page of the group that’s harassing her and see where they ask more people to enter her shop so they can shut her down.

          • TrueChristian

            Then again links for everything you claim. Video, article, Facebook. Until then it didn’t happen.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, you can’t link here. You can’t link anything you’ve claimed because it’s false.

          • TrueChristian

            People leave links all the time. Spell it out if you need to. I’m not claiming anything related to the case that needs a link that you’ve asked for. You’re the one with the wild unsupported claims you can’t back up.

            Find a Muslim owned businesss that has illegally discriminated first. That should be easy if it’s actually happened.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Yeah, you’re playing the link game – demanding one without providing one of your own. How duplicitous of you. Then again, that’s all the left has.

          • TrueChristian

            What do you want a link for? I am more than happy to provide any links you want.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Your claims about the Muslim gay cake video. Your claims that those specific bakeries wanted to bake cakes for gay patrons. Your claims that Muslims happily serve same sex union weddings. Your claims that the video of Muslims refusing to bake same sex union cakes was manufactured with Muslim compliance (ie that Muslims were in on a “hoax”). Your claim that Barronelle wasn’t targeted even though evidence proves to the contrary. In fact, one of the activists used to post here – probably still does under yet another handle.

          • TrueChristian

            Wait? You want links for the video you said you ‘weren’t’ referring to?! Why waste the time? Just send me the link to the video you were referring to, we can go from there.

            And you are the one making a claim of targeting, it’s up to you to show it. Seems all your justification comes from on line, tell me what to put in the Google search to make it pop up.

            Until you do there is no point in claiming it because I don’t believe you.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, you said you had proof the video was fake. Prove it.

          • TrueChristian

            Ah so now you are concerned about the video you “weren’t”talking about. As you might expect the arab American news covered the story and talked to the shops shown in Chowder’s video. Just go there and search for ‘Chowder Dearborn Sweets’ and several articles will pop up. With the information there just a Google search away from more refuting of the video’s accuracy.

            Ok now how do I find this ‘other’ video you were referring to?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Dude, who knows what vid you were talking about? You said you had proof of a fake vid. Show it. It’s Crowder, not Chowder, and there’s more than one. Crowder wasn’t the only guy to do this. You can’t go by what a Muslim says about the issue. They lie all the time. It’s called taqiyya.

          • TrueChristian

            Ha! You obviously did!

            No, you’re wrong. That didn’t happen in the footage I’m talkind about.

            Again show me the one you are talking about or drop it.

            Yeah can’t trust those Muslims, hear the Samaritans are terrible too

            Again you have got nothing. Don’t bother responding til you do.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I already told you which one, and like I said, you’re playing the link game. You can’t back up your claims. You’re just here to agitate, but you’re doing a poor job of it. You got nothing.

          • TrueChristian

            No you said it wasn’t the one I’ve mention and give information on. I’ve provided verification of mine, still nothing from you.

            Again, web story, Facebook link anything other than just you claiming would get you a bit out of the hole.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I’m not in a hole. You are the one who has no evidence or proof of what you’re claiming. None. You’re just here to postulate.

          • TrueChristian

            Yeah as soon as you can show the targeting you can talk. I provided a story about the fake video, you have provided nothing.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No you didn’t. You just made up stuff because you hate Christians.

          • TrueChristian

            And since I pointed you directly to an article, one of a number, we’re done.

            Take care, come on back when you can show any evidence of ‘targeting’.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            You didn’t point me towards anything. Have fun with your delusions.

          • TrueChristian

            I thank God for the block feature. See ya.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Scurry off.

          • Michael C

            Steven Crowder, a Christian comedian who pretended to be a gay man in search of a wedding cake from Muslim vendors, admitted to Christopher Agee of Western Journalism that “no one said ‘No, we won’t do it.’”

            Natasha Dado of The Arab American News reports; “In the video, Crowder accuses Faten Tofeili, a manager at Dearborn Sweets, of refusing to take his order. In a response posted on Facebook, Tofeili wrote, ‘I am the worker from Dearborn Sweets. No one from our bakery turned him down. We kindly accepted him and his cake order and we treated him as if he was any other customer. The fact that he is displaying our bakery as turning him down is a lie.'” and “Fellow employee Hussein Khansa said Dearborn Sweets has made a cake for a gay couple’s wedding before; and that the couple returned to have the bakery make them one for their anniversary.
            ‘We have never refused anyone,’ Khansa said.”

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I wasn’t referring to Crowder, who is not a Christian and very well may be gay himself. There’s speculation. But thanks for playing anyway, Michael.

          • Michael C

            What footage were you talking about. You don’t need to provide a link, you can just tell me a website name or keywords and I will gladly search for it myself.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Walid Shoebat had it. He also has footage of homosexual bakers refusing to make heterosexual wedding cakes.

          • Michael C

            Oooohhhh, the Shoebats! That wacky father/son duo who are always calling for the extermination of gay people? After the Orlando massacre, Ted Shoebat had this to say;

            “I don’t believe in vigilantism, but I do believe in the government killing the sodomites. I do believe in the government arresting the sodomites and executing them for homosexuality. Under my rule, that sodomite club in Orlando, it would have been destroyed, it would have been demolished, bulldozed and all the b******s in there would have been arrested, tried, found guilty for homosexuality and executed.”

            These are the kinds of people you get your “news” from? Color me shocked.

            I couldn’t find a thing about any Muslim owned bakeries refusing service to gay people besides that fake Crowder video.

            I did find the “13 gay bakeries” story that only makes sense if you have zero understanding of how the law works.

            Please stop filling your head with such hate. It’s truly disgusting.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            What does that have to do with the fact that there’s actual footage? Walid didn’t shoot the footage. He only hosted it.

          • Michael C

            Again, I searched for that video and did not find it. If you’d like to provide me with the title of the article it’s posted on, I’d gladly give it a look.

            And again, you seem to enjoy spending time looking at websites that regularly call for my execution.

            We’ve moved past simple conversation and has become a question of intelligence, basic human decency, and outright bigotry.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Mike, you have falsely accused me of wanting you dead. That’s a serious accusation and one that’s completely unfounded. What makes it even worse is that you know it’s a false accusation. I’m beginning to believe the claims that you are here as a paid homosexual activist meant to disrupt Christian boards. Pity. I thought you were a nice guy.

          • Michael C

            you have falsely accused me of wanting you dead.

            reading comprehension.

            I’m beginning to believe the claims that you are here as a paid homosexual activist

            You’re the only person to ever make that claim.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No I’m not. Rob (a Seattle gay activist) said it about you. So have others.

          • BigHobbit

            There isn’t a problem with Christians, it is a problem with Anti-gay business people using a minority, fringe, religious interpretation to defend illegal business practices.
            Millions of American Christians manage to legally sell stuff without violating the law. A half dozen Anti-Gay ideologues are attempting to get a “right” to violate consumer protection laws based on a looney, fringe, belief that is not shared with the vast majority of the real Christians in this country.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Yep, you’d have been a slave owner.

          • BigHobbit

            That which can be asserted without evidence, may be disregarded without evidence.
            Carl Sagan.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Again, a deflection from your admission that you would have been a slave owner.

          • BigHobbit

            I have not made any “admission”. You are asserting something without any evidence, thus you are at risk of being disregarded.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Your admission is evidence. Shame on you!

          • BigHobbit

            If by “winning” you mean paying a hefty fine, and closing your shop, sure.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Do you think compromise is winning? God will bless her more than you can imagine.

          • BigHobbit

            There isn’t a compromise – either you are in compliance with the law, or you are not.
            If YOUR beliefs are incompatible with the law in ONE industry, then it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.
            The white segregationists in south who had restaurants either started serving blacks, or they closed their businesses.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Thanks for admitting you’d have been a slave owner.

          • BigHobbit

            Having trouble concentrating on the actual conversation?

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Deflection noted. It didn’t work. You admitted you would have been a slave owner. That’s despicable.

          • BigHobbit

            Ad hominem fallacy. An attack on me is not a logical argument – it neither advances your position, nor contravenes my own.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            I didn’t attack you. I pointed out that you admitted you would have been a slave owner. You then proceeded to attack. Now you’re misusing the term “ad hominem fallacy”. Sad.

        • BigHobbit

          No one is FORCED to sell flowers to gays, because no one is FORCED to sell flowers to the public to begin with. If you CHOOSE to sell flowers to the public, then you have to follow all the same laws that every other person who sells flowers to the public.
          If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in selling stuff to weddings, then it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry.
          Or move to a state where your behavior doesn’t violate the laws and standards of the community.

          • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

            That’s contradictory: nobody is forced, but those who believe are forced. Following your own evil imaginations to your own hurt seems to have destroyed your ability to use words with meaning.

          • BigHobbit

            Nonsense – nobody is FORCED to sell flowers to the public. If you cannot sell flowers legally, then don’t sell flowers. You are only REQUIRED to follow the laws regarding anti-discrimination in public commerce, IF you CHOOSE to enter public commerce.
            This isn’t my thought – I am paraphrasing from the words of several different judges who have heard these cases. It represents HOW the judges come to the decisions in these cases.

          • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

            Are you running trials for the mark of the beast or something? The thing that entered public commerce here is perverse and oppressive judgment based on stupid law.

          • BigHobbit

            The “thing” that entered public commerce is the business that is selling things in public, i.e., the store.
            Every business owner is responsible to know and to follow the same laws that every other business owner is required to know and follow.
            If this business knew about the law and decided to break it , then it is on them for running that risk. If this business didn’t know about the law, then they should have acknowledged the problem, and either corrected the illegal behavior, or ceased doing business in a product line that their beliefs caused them to behave illegally, i.e., wedding merchandise.
            No one is entitled to their own special “right” to violate consumer protection laws.
            If you don’t want to follow the rules of football, don’t play football.

          • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

            The business came first. People have sold flowers for centuries without being pushed to placate perverts.

          • BigHobbit

            People owned slaves for centuries, too. Just because something has been a certain way “for centuries” doesn’t make it right, it just makes it old.

    • BigHobbit

      Nonsense – the florist wasn’t going to perform the wedding service – all she had to do was sell the same flowers that she would sell every other customer who ordered them.
      A public business must not discriminate on the basis of the customers race, religion, national origin, or, in some states, the sexual orientation of the customer.
      If YOUR beliefs prevent YOUR lawful behavior in ONE industry, it is YOUR responsibility to pick ANOTHER industry. No one is entitled to a special “right” to violate consumer protection laws.