New York Preacher Pregnant Out of Wedlock Says She Won’t Step Down From Pulpit

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NEW YORK — A female preacher in New York who has become pregnant outside of wedlock says she won’t step down from the pulpit, stating that she is not “sorry or ashamed.”

Desiree Allen serves as the pastor of arts and spiritual formation at First Corinthian Baptist Church in New York City, which also runs the non-profit Dream Center in Harlem.

Recently, Allen, who is engaged to be married, wrote a blog post outlining that she had discovered in May that she had become pregnant with twins.

“My immediate reaction was shock. This was not planned. Yes, I know it’s a potential consequence of having sex, but not one readily expected,” Allen wrote. “With the exception of living a pretty much celibate lifestyle in my twenties I had been having sex on and off since I was 15 and had never been pregnant. In fact, I assumed when I was ready it would be very hard for me to conceive. Boy, did I miscalculate that.”

Her post, entitled “On Being a Pastor and Pregnant (and Why I Can’t Carry Your Weight),” was written in part to express her feelings about the “weight” she carried having to face those in the Church who “shame” those having sexual relations outside of marriage.

“What had my stomach turning, other than nausea, was me being pregnant and a pastor,” Allen outlined. “Let’s face it. The Church has not had a good track record of accepting unmarried women who got pregnant. If you’ve been in church for any period of time, you’ve heard or witnessed the aftermath. Shunning, slut shaming, being sat down from your position, having to go up in front of the church and confess your sin, etc. etc.”

She said that while she struggled with having to tell others about the pregnancy, she ultimately decided to be proud of herself.

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“I decided I was going to walk with my head held high, because I was proud and excited to be pregnant,” Allen wrote. “Often, when people think you’ve done something wrong or have sinned they want you to walk around with your head low in guilt. Otherwise, how would THEY know you were sorry? Well, I wasn’t sorry or ashamed. Shame and happiness cannot reside in the same place.”

She said that she had been told at one point that fornication was an abomination to God, but shrugged it off as “antiquated” language.

“So when the first comment was made about my pregnancy being an abomination I wasn’t bothered, because it wasn’t MY truth. Plus who uses abomination anyway? Can we say antiquated?” Allen asserted.

She advised that when she broke the news to church staff at a retreat, she was rather received with prayer and support, and therefore has no plans to stop preaching.

“So no, I cannot carry your weight about MY situation. Whoever you are,” she wrote to those who would express opposition or concern. “I have my own beautiful, amazing and miraculous weight to carry for the next few months and a lifetime.  … I have preached throughout my pregnancy and will do so until I can no longer waddle on the stage.”

Reaction to the matter has been mixed, with some opining that the woman should just ask for forgiveness and move on, and others stating that she should not be in the pulpit as her example is not good for the flock of God.

“In my opinion, the only kind of sex that is sinful is sex where one or both partners is being harmed, physically, emotionally, spiritually or otherwise,” one commenter wrote. “God created sex. Sex isn’t bad. We have turned it into a taboo. This taboo is most often used to control women.”

“Worry about your own sin, and do some more research before you start deciding that you know how God feels about a situation,” they contended. “You know, the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ got pregnant before she was married too. God seems to love, bless, and ordain unmarried women just as much as the rest of us.”

“I am disappointed that this pastor does not feel like she should ‘voluntarily’ sit down until after becoming pregnant. Sitting down is not ‘shaming,'” another said. “It merely reflects an attitude of responsibility and accountability to the very Word that pastors are entrusted to preach. The very decision to have sex knowing what God’s Word says about it, is to reject God’s Word as being the basis upon which you live your life.”

“If a pastor rejects God’s Word as the basis for life decision, how can that pastor instruct others to obey God’s Word?” they asked.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, 7-8 reads, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication, that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor. … For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us His Holy Spirit.”


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  • TwoRutRoad

    Dang. I almost wish she had claimed that she was still a virgin. It would have been interesting to see how many would not have believed her, and would have demanded proof from a doctor. Better yet, those who believed her would really have been shocked to find out that there are going to be TWINS!

  • Oboehner

    What was she doing in the pulpit in the first place? The Bible is quite clear on that.

    • TwoRutRoad

      Just another “antiquated” part of the bible, perhaps.

      • Oboehner

        Two reasons now not to be in the pulpit.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      YEP!!!!! My thinking exactly.

    • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

      Indeed – and she is not the first woman to teach:
      Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
      And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
      Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
      And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      • TwoRutRoad

        What does “And I will kill her children with death” mean? That He will kill the twins?

        • Maryann Kussmaul

          He did David.

          • TwoRutRoad

            Seems excessive to me. Punish her by killing the kids.
            Is this a part of what our so-called christian nation is based on? If it’s such a big deal, why isn’t it in our laws?

        • Palsgraf’s Scale

          Remember, folks, murdering children is A-OK when you claim your god told you to do it!

          • Oboehner

            Remember, folks, murdering children is A-OK when you get the urge.

          • Palsgraf’s Scale

            Which would be relevant if I was making a comment regarding abortion. But I wasn’t. I was commenting on your scripture, and how killing already born children because your god said to go for it was ironic coming from this demographic. Try again.

          • Oboehner

            Don’t be bashful, it is every bit as fitting here.

          • Palsgraf’s Scale

            “Killing babies is wrong, except when god says its ok, then morality is tossed out” is hardly an objective bright-line to work off of. Thanks for proving my point. 🙂

          • Oboehner

            “Killing babies is wrong, except when it’s convienient” is hardly an objective bright-line to work off of. Thanks for proving my point. 🙂

          • Palsgraf’s Scale

            Still not relevant to the discussion, and never once came up in this article or subsequent comments. Why are you trying to pull in irrelevancies? Assuaging inadequacy? If you want to argue abortion, take it to an abortion discussion.

          • Oboehner

            Don’t be bashful, it is every bit as fitting here.

      • Oboehner

        To a “T”, to a “T”.

      • TRUTHMATTERS

        So many clueless .Yes being unmarried sin Next Hello a woman was judge over israel Women were prophets in ot and nt .Here one you do not know .Scripture support of a woman being an authority is the case of Junia in Romans 16:7. It is said that Junia, a woman, was an apostle. Since apostles are in place of authority, then Junia demonstrates that women can be in authority over men in the church. Junia as “noun, feminine, Sadly many like you fail to seek the whole bible and grab a verse or two and walk away in error .Paul was talking about one issue in a church . another one example sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

        • Andy

          Romans 12:7 – “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.” (ESV)
          “Salute Andronicus and
          Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the
          apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” (KJV)

          Paul never says that Junia is an apostle. It says that that Junia is well known to the apostles.

          Phoebe was a deaconess, someone who serves. She had no authoritative leadership in the church. Also, deacons held only servant roles not leadership roles.

          Sorry! Neither of these Scripture references support women in authority over men in the church.

          Besides, the problem with this so-called preacher is that she, by her own admission, lived a lifestyle contrary to what Scripture teaches about sex outside of marriage. Just the act of a sexual lifestyle outside of marriage is reason for her resignation.

        • http://www.gmail.com/ David van Heerden

          Of course I’m clueless, but my Bible says “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” Kinsmen are men – it doesn’t matter if your brother is called Beverley and your sister is called Junia. Not being able to speak Greek is not a valid argument.
          “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea”: servant and deacon are not equal. “Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; …
          Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.” There is not “there” there.
          What do you see in Philippians? I see this: “Paul
          and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in
          Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons” It says many things, but not your point.
          Get yourself a real Bible: take away modern feminist influence, take away the corruptions of the fraudulent Sinaiticus and its friends of Alexandria, and you will find you do not have an argument at all – especially when you have read the whole thing as you correctly recommend.

    • TRUTHMATTERS

      Yes unmarried sin Next Hello a woman was judge over israel Women were prophets in ot and nt .Here one you do not know .Scripture support of a woman being an authority is the case of Junia in Romans 16:7. It is said that Junia, a woman, was an apostle. Since apostles are in place of authority, then Junia demonstrates that women can be in authority over men in the church. Junia as “noun, feminine, Sadly many like you fail to seek the whole bible and grab a verse or two and walk away in error .Paul was talking about one issue in a church . another one example sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

      • Oboehner

        11″Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” 1 Timothy 2:11-14
        Women can teach – other women, it is not said that Junia was leading a church or that she was teaching any men. The scripture is clear no matter how feminists and others wish to twist it.

  • Deeann

    What, “antiquated” language. Did God say His word would every become “antiquated” language? As a Pastor, you are held to a higher accountability. If a Pastor dismisses God’s word he or she is not of Christ and should be removed at once. Every time a group of people want others to legimize their sin, they try to change the bible or say it is outdated. Lady step down, admit the sin and go on with your life. It is now between you and God; He will hold you accountable if you taint “the little ones” with you fleshly doctrine.

  • Lisa Balthaser

    There is NOTHING “antiquated” about God’s timeless word. And one does NOT get to pick and choose what parts they WANT to follow. It is not our choice. If we are truly followers of God, then we also see God’s law as the final law, regardless of what our government or society tells us. While I understand her love for her babies and beign excited about being a mother, she is failing to see what message this sends to her congregation. When one chooses to lead a church, they are choosing to be held to a higher standard and live by the example God as set forth. While this does nto mean they do not slip up at times, it does mean that when they shoudl strive for it in every aspect of their lives. By disregarding God’s commands and calling them “antiquated” and not HER truth, she is saying she knows better than God, which is absurd. While I wish her much happiness and a happy and healthy family, she has no business presenting herself as a pastor of a church. Repenting for sins is a command from God, not “shaming” as she alludes to. It is not about shaming at all, but of truly accepting the sin and repenting as God has called upon His followers to do. By stating that she does nto feel the need to do this means that once again, she is going against God’s very word. She is leading her congregation astray. She should absolutely not be allowed to pastor a church.

    • Royce E. Van Blaricome

      That’s all true. Well said. Though the “she” is disqualifying to begin with. Nothing antiquated about that either. That said, don’t think I’m being misogynistic. See my comments above. I would also say there is nothing wrong with being ashamed of one’s sin. Being “ashamed” of our sin is a healthy thing as long as one doesn’t wallow in it and realizes the freedom we have in Christ with the forgiveness that comes thru Him.

    • George Fillin

      “Her congregation”………sigh…..if only you people were not hypocrites. Yahweh have mercy on those who have refused to listen to all this drivel. There are no female pastors. Period. There are no female priests. Period. There is no man nor woman who owns a group of people to lead them or be their master/teacher in Yahweh’s kingdom. Period. Your very rebuke is hypocrisy……

      • Bob Rogers

        Your reply is not sincere -that is obvious. You well know what the”her congregation” communicated!

        • George Fillin

          I know well you don’t know what she was saying or that men and women claiming what is God’s and stealing his glory happens constantly. Worthless people.

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            No person is worthless. My Lord paid a great price for them. Their actions might be worthless, but they are of infinite worth.

          • George Fillin

            That is nonsense and you do not know the testimonies of the God you claim to follow.

          • hytre64✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            1 Tim 2:5-6 For there [is only] one God, and [only] one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all [people, a fact that was] attested to at the right and proper time.

            Read that again – He gave Himself as a ransom for ALL – not some few elect.

            Next:

            John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

            ANY who believe in Him CAN have the gift of Eternal Life. They just need to believe in Him (ie. receiving Him as Lord and Savior).

            Rom 10:9 Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

            The Price was paid for all – the question is who is willing to receive the free gift of Salvation.

            Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  • Jeffin Gracewell

    If she could understand the Bible correctly she know what she is doing is wrong.

    • Amos Moses

      by even saying she is a pastrix ……….

  • G Smith

    That’s the world attitude that has crept into the church: My will, not Thy will, most holy God.

  • G Smith

    That’s the world attitude that has crept into the church: My will, God, not Thy will.

  • brianvmorton

    A horrible situation, made worse by some of her supporters comments. To suggest that Mary ‘got pregnant before she was married too’ is to misrepresent the nature of our Saviours birth. For the record Jesus was not conceived through fornication, that is blasphemous. Oh, and while we are at it, where exactly in scripture did God ever ‘ordain unmarried women’? Sin always pays out its reward.

  • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

    Why be surprised? The faux church has been supporting adulterers and fornicators for some time now. Look at the support Amy Grant gets.

    • Andy

      Amy Grant came out years ago and publicly apologized and repented for her sin as did Sandi Patty. The church also offers forgiveness, mercy, and love to those who do repent without condoning the sin.

      • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        No she didn’t. In fact, she still flaunts her relationship today. She’s still bashing her ex-husband too.

        • Andy

          Whether she is bashing her ex-husband I don’t know but I do know that I watched her stand before an audience and publicly confess and ask for forgiveness from her ex-husband.

          As for flaunting her relationship now… she should flaunt her relationship today, she is married to the guy. Whether she is committing the same sin today I don’t know and I have not seen anything that says she so.

          AND, Vince Gill is just as guilty as Amy Grant.

          • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            The Bible says she is committing the same sin today because, guess what? Vince Gill is not really her husband in God’s eyes. It’s still an adulterous relationship. If you have the stomach for it, check out her recent interviews. She may have done a faux apology to the Christian crowd to get their money, but on worldly shows, she flaunts it. There’s so much more to the story.

  • Reason2012

    A female preacher in New York who has become pregnant outside of wedlock says she won’t to step down from the pulpit, stating that she is not “sorry or ashamed.”

    Of course not. She already proved she doesn’t care what God makes plain by becoming a preacher.

    1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

    In further proof of this,

    – she commits fornication
    – she’s not repentant
    – she STILL won’t step down.

    Things like this simply let born again believers in God know, if they haven’t already, they need to get out of that false “church”.

    Matthew 15:13-14 “But he [Jesus] answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

    • TRUTHMATTERS

      Yes being unmarried sin Next Hello a woman was judge over israel Women were prophets in ot and nt .Here one you do not know .Scripture support of a woman being an authority is the case of Junia in Romans 16:7. It is said that Junia, a woman, was an apostle. Since apostles are in place of authority, then Junia demonstrates that women can be in authority over men in the church. Junia as “noun, feminine, Sadly many like you fail to seek the whole bible and grab a verse or two and walk away in error .Paul was talking about one issue in a church . another one example sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

      • Reason2012

        Hello. She committed public sin but worse is not sorry or ashamed – her refusal to repentant is worse than the sin itself, including how it will make many who follow her stumble.

        OT prophets were not leaders of churches – they were simply prophets in the OT time. The topic is NT, churches and preaching and God makes it clear women are not to even speak in church, let alone lead it.

        Here one you do not know .Scripture support of a woman being an authority is the case of Junia in Romans 16:7. It is said that Junia, a woman, was an apostle. Since apostles are in place of authority, then Junia demonstrates that women can be in authority over men in the church. Junia as “noun, feminine,

        Wrong. Read it again.

        Romans 16:7 “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

        There are two statements there.
        One: thanking Andronicus and Junia, his kinsmen.
        Two: Thanking his fellowprisoners, who are among the actual apostles, who were in Christ BEFORE Paul.
        So not only is it two statements where Junia is only mentioned as one of his kinsmen (a roman it seems – the apostles were not Romans), but it also proves he was not talking about her as he was talking about the 12 (11, really) apostles who were in Christ before he was.

        Sadly many like you fail to seek the whole bible and grab a verse or two and walk away in error.

        That’s what you just did: you ignore the several verses that make it CLEAR women are not to usurp authority over the man or to even speak in church (which is the topic under discussion) to instead pretend Paul called Junia an apostle.

        another one example sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.word deacon refers here to a Christian designated to serve with the overseers/elders of the church in a variety of ways; similarly in Phil. 1:1 and 1 Tim. 3:8,12.

        Phil 1:1 says no such thing.

        Philippians 1:1 “Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”

        1 Tim 3:8,12 makes it clear a deacon is a man, because he is to have only one wife.

        1 Timothy 3:8 “Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;”

        1 Timothy 3:12 “Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”

        As soon as you show the verse that says a deacon must be the husband of one wife or the wife of one husband, you might be on to something.

        Not to mention you completely ignore the verses cited above.

        It’s not mankind we need to convince of things contrary to what the Bible says, it’s God. And if God points out those who prophesy in His name, do many miracles in His name, cast out devils in His name are still going to be cast into_hell, what chance have we got if we instead do far worse and start teaching contrary to the Bible?

        There are many men who are preachers just to fill their own belly (ego, control, power, status, etc) – women demanding that role in spite of the Bible saying otherwise are doing likewise as shown by their refusal to submit to what God has made plain.

        Please think again – I’m nothing and cannot convince anyone of anything and am as deserving of_hell as anyone. I can only point out what the Bible makes plain – the rest is between each person and God..

      • Amos Moses

        No record of “Junia” being a woman …. scripture does not say that ……….

        and the name translated is:

        G2458
        Ἰουνίας
        Iounias
        ee-oo-nee’-as
        Of Latin origin; Junias, a Christian: – Junias.

        and a word being “feminine” does not needs be a woman …..

    • Bi

      God uses women and men in appointed positions of leadership. For example, Deboreh was both a Judge and Prophet also Queen Esther are both examples of women whom God placed in leadership and positions of authority. Your quote of Paul’s writings has to be taken in context with the culture of his day and to believe God will not raise up a woman in a spiritual leadership role is not accurate with the whole Bible that includes both Old and New Testament scriptures. I do not believe God who used a woman such as Deboreh as a Judge and as a spiritual leader and then not allow women to be placed spiritual leadership roles in our generation today. God does not change. And He does hold spiritual leaders to a higher standard of holiness because they leading His sheep. Pastors are held accountable for preaching the truth of God’s Word and setting an example of integrity and holiness for believers in Christ to follow. I believe this higher accountability of holy living and Christian conduct is for all spiritual leaders whether male or female.

      • Reason2012

        God uses women and men in appointed positions of leadership. For example, Deboreh was both a Judge and Prophet also Queen Esther are both examples of women whom God placed in leadership and positions of authority.

        Hello. That’s OT times and having nothing to do with being a preacher in a church.

        Your quote of Paul’s writings has to be taken in context with the culture of his day and to believe God will not raise up a woman in a spiritual leadership role is not accurate with the whole Bible that includes both Old and New Testament scriptures.

        There’s nothing in the NT that says women are to usurp as much authority over men to be preachers of a church.

        I do not believe God who used a woman such as Deboreh as a Judge and as a spiritual leader and then not allow women to be placed spiritual leadership roles in our generation today.

        It doesn’t matter what you or I believe – what matters is that’s exactly what God said He did.

        God does not change.

        It’s a new covenant – the church age. And men are to be pastors, while women are not even supposed to speak in the church. So we need to decide: are we going to believe the Bible, or we going to do what we wish the Bible said instead. Then we answer to God for whichever choice we made.

        And He does hold spiritual leaders to a higher standard of holiness because they leading His sheep. Pastors are held accountable for preaching the truth of God’s Word and setting an example of integrity and holiness for believers in Christ to follow. I believe this higher accountability of holy living and Christian conduct is for all spiritual leaders whether male or female.

        And yet she openly sinned and refused to be sorry for it – any male pastor should be removed after doing such a thing, or the people need to leave if he was not. Yet she refuses to step down which is further proof that her heart is not right with God or His Word.

        The truth of God’s Word is that women are not to be preachers leading churches in the NT. Our beliefs about the matter take a back seat to what God has made plain. It’s God we’ll have to answer to for not following what His Word has made plain.

        So of course there are going to be many kinds of false churches – one of them is where women demand to be pastors. God-fearing people need to stick to His Word instead of people’s desires that are contrary to it.

        • Bi

          I would like to comment to all to clarify that my previous comments were not stated in favor of the pastor’s actions. I agree that fornication is sin which requires repentance and forgiveness from God. I also stated that God raised up Deboreh as a Judge and Prophet and she was the only female judge recorded in the Bible (Old Testament). The person who said that is OT and we are under a new covenant- church age should also remember Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ” Matthew 5:17. Therefore, I say again God does not change. And yes, we are under a new covenant of grace but God requires us to receive His entire Word both OT and NT scriptures. Jesus said He would not destroy the law and the prophets but fulfill them. We cannot pick and choose scriptures to follow. We are to abide by God’s Word and all of it. God has shown in OT scriptures that He placed woman in positions of spiritual authority namely Deboreh and Queen Esther. And I do believe God anoints and appoints both men and women in spiritual leadership. In the OT God raised up Judges before God raised up Kings. Samuel was the last Judge before King Saul was made king of Israel. This shows Deboreh’s role as a Judge of high importance, especially since she is a woman and a position of spiritual authority.

          • Reason2012

            I also stated that God raised up Deboreh as a Judge and Prophet and she was the only female judge recorded in the Bible (Old Testament).

            Yet the discussion is about the covenant of grace and the church age and pastors, not judges that God spoke to directly, ONE of which was a woman. Also you’re ignoring the several places where it’s clear a woman is not to be a pastor or even to speak in a church. Why is that? Why ignore plain verses to instead promote what you can only give reasons to believe instead that contradicts what God has made plain?

            The person who said that is OT and we are under a new covenant- church age should also remember Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ” Matthew 5:17.

            That doesn’t mean he “fulfilled” women being preachers and leaders of individual churches. God didn’t “change” to say women cannot be pastors of churches – up until then there WAS no churches. You’re using the concept that “God does not change” falsely to claim that God still wants women to be pastors, but there never were any pastors, male nor female, before Christ came.

            God has shown in OT scriptures that He placed woman in positions of spiritual authority namely Deboreh and Queen Esther.

            Not women – a woman. Yes, in OT times, not when there were churches, God allowed ONE woman to be a judge, not a pastor of a church. What does God say in NT times with churches and women in general?

            1 Corinthians 14:34-38 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

            1 Timothy 2:11-15 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

            You want women to be pastors in these NT churches that never existed before – God says otherwise.
            You need to decide: are you going to listen to God, or disobey God?
            Convincing others to disobey God because you ignore the verses that clearly say otherwise is not going to make you any more right, it’s just going to make others wrong right alongside you – and they’re stumble will be on your hands.

            It’s only pride that makes women want to be preachers in spite of what God says,
            pride that makes pastors not be sorry even though they publicly sin,
            and pride that made this specific woman do both.

            Please think again.

          • Demetrius Mays Burnett

            Jesus also said to study the scripture to show yourself approved….the New Testament was not written then. There were many women that were prophets, that is teachers. Study with prayer.

          • Reason2012

            Jesus also said to study the scripture to show yourself approved….the New Testament was not written then.

            Good advice you should take where you made two mistakes.
            (1) It was written in 2 Timothy 2:15 after much of the NT was written.

            (2) Although it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, those words came out of Paul’s mouth, not Jesus’

            Study with prayer the verses you have to ignore to teach the false doctrines that contradict the Bible that women are to be preachers, to speak in the church, to usurp authority over men. In the end it’s God we’ll have to answer to, no matter how many people are deceived by false teachers.

          • Pamela Hankins

            How do we all miss the fact that the majority of Paul’s letters were to counter the Judaizers who wanted to subject Gentiles to the Law? It was resolved between the two sent to the Gentiles (Peter and Paul) in Acts 15, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood”. The Book of Romans explains it to the Gentiles, while the Book of Hebrews explains it to the Jews. It’s one of the most important, yet least understood concepts in the NT. Eph 2:15 “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.” and Hebrews 8:13, “…in that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”. Hebrews 10:9, “Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second”. The Law is never preached in the NT, just the opposite. Paul, the scholar of scholars, could not articulate what had happened with all his learning until the Holy Spirit revealed it to him and that’s what ALL of his letters deal with…it would behoove us to hear him.

          • Reason2012

            How do we all miss the fact that the majority of Paul’s letters were to counter the Judaizers who wanted to subject Gentiles to the Law?

            Which was partly because they allowed women to speak and preach in the churches, which no one should do. So he also reminds them that because Eve was in the transgression, not Adam, that women are to remain silent in churches, if they have questions to wait until they are at home to ask their husbands, that women are not to usurp authority over the man, and reminds us that leaders are to be the husband of one wife (not the wife of one husband).

            It would be wise for us to obey God, not try to explain it away so that we can rationalize “well he wasn’t referring to me, it was only a sin for others to do so”. Homosexual activists are famous for this line of attack on God’s Word, for example claiming that “there is neither male nor female” for example means that God is ok with two men being married.

            I would think again – we’ll be responsible for disregarding parts of what God says, let alone teaching others to do likewise.

          • Guest254

            Women werent preaching in churches. Read the book of Acts!

          • Reason2012

            I should have used the word “teach”. Thank you for the correction.

          • Guest254

            Women weren’t preaching or teaching in the synagoguea under the law of Moses. If you look in the book of Acts Priscilla teaches by exponding the gospel more perfectly. The church of God allows women to serve 1 Corinthians 1-16 primarily verse 16

          • Reason2012

            Not officially in front of everyone, but how do we know none tried to, if you will, “get in a word edgewise” and cause issues and divisions?
            Whatever the case, Paul felt the need to REMIND them that women are not to speak or teach in the church.

          • Guest254

            No opinions here just facts.

            Paul want reminding Timothy. He was reiterating to Timothy how silly that custom was amongst the Jews.
            Even as he did in 1 Corinthiana chapter 11 but verse 16 of that chapter repeals the first 15 verses. The church of God is not so
            Again Paul was naming what they did in their Jewish custom.

            The reason for some of the comments were devout Jewesses were stirred up by the men to cause commotion. (Nothing to do with preaching.

            Study the book of Acts to get a clear understanding of Paul’s letters.

          • Shannon

            For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

            So it doesn’t matter whether she’s a woman or not. She can not preach one thing and live something else entirety. For she’s a hypocrite. Then again your life is the message you preach and it shows what you believe in. This is one reason why there’s so many churches, doctrines, denominations; people want to live how they want to live. With no regrets. I’m not judging her for we all have fallen and come short of the glory of God.
            Her credibility is shot, you can’t tell no-one how to do, when she couldn’t trust God to keep her or trust God to yield her desires to God. Yet, she doesn’t see anything wrong, that’s bc she’s been doing wrong so long her conscious had been seared.

          • Bi

            I would like to comment that Reason2012 stated an opinion that women who become pastors are prideful. It was stated also and being implied I ignored NT scriptures. I would like to reitrtate that I used factual OT scriptures to show God uses women in positions of spiritual leadership, such as Deboreh and Queen Esther. These women were chosen by God to have spiritual leadership positions . I will also give NT scriptures. In Phillipians 4:1-3, Apostle Paul names two women, namely Euodias and Syntyche, and he praised them saying in verse 3 “… help those women which labored with me in the gospel”. These women preached the gospel side by side with Apostle Paul and he names another one, Clement, and then says about the women “…fellow-labourers, whose names are in the book of life” (Phillipians 4:3). This scripture points to women who were preachers that proclaimed the gospel message side by side with Apostle Paul. These women served with Paul in ministry, which again shows God uses women in ministry from stated in NT scriptures. Additionally, Paul spoke to men in the church to also be quiet. In 1 Thesslonians 4:10-11, “And indeed yes do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that yes increase more and more;” vs 11 “And that yes study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;” These scriptures show that Paul also was speaking to the brethren who were men and also women “…that ye study to be quiet”. And I would like to reiterate that Jesus used women to proclaim the gospel, such as the Samaritan women (see John 4) who told all of the people in Samaria that Jesus is the Christ . Then Jesus when He arose from the tomb appeared to women, Mary and Mary Magdalen and He sent them to proclaim the good news of His ressurection to the disciples (see John 20: 16-18, Matthew 28: 1-10). The Bible states that Jesus appeared first to women and sent them to go and tell His disciples that He is risen and that He would meet with His disciples.
            I also would like to respond to your statement that God uses sinners to lead such as [King] Saul. I would like to clarify that in OT scriptures as noted in I Samuel chapters 10, 11, 12 that Saul was not originally a sinful person but rather a humble person selected by God to be king. In Samuel. 10:1, Samuel directed by God anoints Saul’s head with oil to become king of Israel. He wasn’t a sinner at first but he was a humble man of great stature and height. Saul was also anointed by God and in the company of holy prophets Saul begins to prophesy by the Spirit of God (see 1 Samuel 10:5-6, 9-10). God gave King Saul a new heart and changed him into a new man. He was not a sinner at first. Saul fell into sin later on by listening to wants and desires of the people as noted in 1 Samuel 15: 10-23. It is because King Saul disobeyed God that God rejected Saul as king. Again, this is a lesson to all both men and women God anointed and appointed positions of spiritual leadership that we are to obey God and walk uprightly and seek holiness and choose not to sin. In reason that as God promotes He can also demote as in the example of King Saul. We are walk justly and live humbly before our God. All spiritual leaders whether men or women are to walk uprightly and are held accountable to set the right example for believers in Christ to follow. As in the case of King Saul, God appointed him yet later rejected him because of sin and disobedience Saul chose to do. God created us to be free moral agents. We choose to believe in Jesus dying for our sins on the cross to accept God’s free gift of salvation through faith in Christ. We again choose to live godly and uprightly in obedience to God or we choose to make sinful choices that is in disobedience to God’s commands. We all must all humble ourselves and repent of any sins we committed and to walk in fellowship with God through love and obedience. God is gracious to forgive us of our sins when humble ourselves and repent to God and then turn away from sinful behavior.

          • Reason2012

            I would like to comment that Reason2012 stated an opinion that women who become pastors are prideful. It was stated also and being implied I ignored NT scriptures.

            Why else would they blatantly ignore scripture?

            Women are not to be pastors. We will answer to God for ignoring what He made plain and it doesn’t matter how many we get to agree with us to ignore God’s Word – we’d all be guilty.
            Born again believers in God, who start reading their Bibles with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will know to get out of the church, and would know never to step into it to begin with.

            1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

            1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

            1 Timothy 3:1-2 “This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;”

            Titus 1:6-9 “If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”

            Ephesians 5:22-25 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

            1 Peter 3:1-6 “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.”

            I used factual OT scriptures to show God has both appointed and has used women in positions of spiritual leadership

            I addressed this and you ignored it: we’re not talking about a few women whom God chose for His own reason to be a prophet. We’re talking about the specific role of spiritual leadership in the church and the home and God makes it clear they now have no such leadership role.

            Can they be a help to men?

            Yes.

            Can they preach the gospel to others just like men can who are not pastors?

            Yes.

            Are they to be pastors, or teach in the church?

            God says no.

            You wish to ignore all the scripture you’ve been shown that rebukes your claim of “well God made a few women leaders in the OT, hence they can be pastors and lead a church if they want to”. God points it out they cannot do any such thing. You do not like this truth, so you ignore it and give reasons you believe women can be pastors, and jump through a few hoops to try proving some non-existent connections to women being pastor.

            For example, because Jesus appeared first to Mary, you make a complete jump to act like that proves in any way women can be pastors.

            So you think it’s false that a few apostles said, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that

            – women should be silent in the church,
            – women are not to teach,
            – it’s a shame for women to speak (teaching) in the church
            – women should ask their husbands at home,
            – only a man can seek the office of bishop,
            – that only a man who is husband of one wife can see such positions,
            – that wives should submit to their husbands

            It’s God you’ll have to convince He was wrong on all those points and what you want for women trumps what God said.

            So be it.

            I can only point out what God says and rebuke your claims. The rest is between each person and God that wants to teach contrary to what God has made more than plain.

            Take care.

          • Kevin Quillen

            Acts 21:9 and Joel 2 Philip had daughters that prophesied and Joel said that the sons and daughters would prophesy….
            What does “prophesy” mean? In your reference to 1 Cor there is references to what women should and should not wear. One thing is “braided hair”. Why? Hint; research the Temple of Diana. This will teach you why Paul wrote all this to the Corinthians. The 1 Tim writing just shows that Paul was influenced by his environment. Want proof? Acts 16:9. Paul knew circumcision was useless but circumcised someone just to please the Jews. Paul said he would become whatever necessary to reach people for Christ. He would never try to change the patriarchal society because they would not listen about Christ if he did.

          • Reason2012

            Acts 21:9 prophesy was translated from the Greek word prophēteuō, which means to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration.

            That doesn’t mean “women hence should be pastors of churches, teach, and be the spiritual leader of men”.

            God opened the mouth of a donkey to speak by far more than just inspiration in the book of Numbers – using an event of God using a specific person to speak something under inspiration as any sort of logic as to why the Bible verses should be ignored as to why women should not be pastors is silly at best.

          • Kari Gold

            Oh please. God calls all of us to share the good news. I know many woman who share the good news of the gospel. Pastors, Evangelists, Missionaries, Teachers. If you want to call them “Teachers”, that’s fine. Everyone will give an account, including those whose opinion was that women couldn’t be Pastors.

          • Reason2012

            Hello. Every single saved person can share the gospel. Never said otherwise. But being a pastor is what we’re talking about, not sharing the gospel with people we meet.

          • Guest254

            It takes the Holy Spirit and being spiritually discerned to understand

          • Sally Penfold

            I can sort of understand why people differ on this. Personally, I think Paul’s instruction applies most of the time. BUT where there is no man available to train people in the knowledge of God, I think He would use anyone who is available. If it’s a woman so be it.

            Many missionary women go alone to ‘heathen’ places, and do all the ministering because of resources and limited knowledge of the new beilevers. Shall we should call them back from the mission field because it’s not right to preach? No. They have a unique calling. Many have others they are connected to at home, for advice and support too.

            In Paul’s time it was totally appropriate and set up a way to keep order in church and relationships. I prefer men to preach, they are gifted and wise in it. I am not rigid about it, because God uses the unexpected person and events, according to HIS wisdom at times. Who will obey His voice, when He needs someone to act? That is probably who He’ll use.

            Where there is lack you take what’s there! In the war, the men were gone to fight so many women had to step up and help build munitions and equipment and do jobs they never would have. It was not a constant need, but an emergency so it was necessary and acceptable.

            If a man is a missionary and needs help planting a church, he too may decide to use his wife’s skills initially to help where needed to grow the church, until they have some local support who can step in. Is that wrong? If the man is listening and praying to be in tune with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and will not ignore that, but not proceed if he feels God says NO, he will stop her work.

            Can we say it’s a SIN punishable by hell, to speak in church or teach as a woman? I don’t think so, but agree, it may be outside the appropriate way God orders things. After the fall, He set the man as head of the house and has final say on things; then the woman still has freedom but it’s under his overall leadership and loving hand. She respects that he decides from a God-centred place when he has to make important decisions.

            We do not have to slander and abuse fellow Christians for not having the precise same biblical belief, as we are all growing and learning. Our ideas change over time, as we learn. We must graciously share WHY we think what we do and trust the Holy Spirit to work in people to shift their view if it’s in error. Sometimes Christians call others ignorant and misguided and it can be nasty. Jesus was HUMBLE, we need to show that grace too.

          • Bi

            Thank you for your feedback. It was very encouraging to see you understand that God raises up women too serve Him in ministry. Yes, God has a great work to get gospel message preached to all unbelievers in the world. Therefore, I truly believe God is raising up women in our lifetime today to serve Him in ministry. I am saying this humbly to you and in my other posts I have shared my beliefs humbly yet openly with support from scripture references. I have tried to be humble to all. Thank you again for replying to my post. It truly was refreshing to read and uplifting for my spiritual growth in the LORD.

      • Amos Moses

        quoting exceptions in scripture is not a basis for theology and it ignores the whole of scripture …………. God does not recognize culture in His church … and it is HIS church …. not ours ………. it is ruled by His rules ….. not our desires …………

        • Bi

          I would like to respond that I am not quoting scriptures to make exceptions. It is factual that Deboreh was called by God and used by God to be a Judge and Prophet. I also stated Queen Esther as another woman who held spiritual authority to the people of Israel. I am stating facts from Old Testament scriptures to show that God uses women in positions of spiritual leadership. That is a fact in scripture to support that God uses women in positions of spiritual leadership too. Jesus also used women. Jesus spoke to the Samaritan woman (John 4) and after revealing Himself as Messiah, Jesus sent the Samaritan woman to proclaim to all the people of Samaria that Jesus is the Christ. And when Jesus was resurrected who did Jesus appear to first? Jesus appeared to women. Jesus told Mary to go and tell the disciples that He is risen. Jesus sent women to proclaim the good news of His ressurection. Jesus sent women to speak to His disciples. Again, this is stated in scripture John 20:15-18 and Matthew 28: 9, 10 and both scriptures support Jesus telling women to go and tell My disciples that I have risen. It is important to note Jesus who is God used women to proclaim the good news of His ressurection and deity where Jesus states I am going to My God and to your God. Jesus used women to proclaim the good news as noted the Samaratan woman, and at the tomb Mary and Mary Magdalene. These women Jesus had mercy upon and still used them to proclaim the good news of His deity as Christ and His ressurection.

          • Amos Moses

            “It is factual that Deboreh was called by God and used by God to be a Judge and Prophet. I also stated Queen Esther as another woman”

            and that is citing exceptions and ignoring the whole of scripture …………. and it is not the model of the church we are given ……

          • Vic Christian

            However, in none of those examples is God using a woman in a role which He had previously limited to only men.

          • BravesFan

            Exactly. YES, women can go and tell – who’s going to teach the kids? Of course women can spread the gospel. Of course women can plead for people to be saved. But women are not to be in an authority position over men in a church. Period, the end. Women have a role and the role is defined.

          • Bi

            I would like to respond that women today are being used by God in ministry. In Ephesians chapter 4, Paul explains the five-fold ministry of God’s Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists, and Teachers. And among these roles, God is raising up women who are answering God’s call to be Evangelists, Pastors, Prophets, Teachers and some even Apostles for the Kingdom of God. And there are missionaries, who are both men and women who are preaching to large crowds of people and also establishing churches as God leads them. God is using women today in ministry. As I understand your positon regarding women yet I do disagree because God raised up Deboreh as a Prophet and Judge to all of Israel
            Please see Judges 4:4-8 and 5 as a reference.

          • BravesFan

            Thanks, I have read the complete Bible about 5 times and counting. We will just disagree on this one.

          • Bi

            Thanks for your comment on my post. In the story of Deboreh, she served God as a Prophet and as a Judge. In her role as a Judge she offered spiritual guidance to Barak and she also judged all of Israel with their issues and disputes (her role as Judge was over both men and women). Please read Judges chapter 4:4-8 and 5 as a reference.

          • Bi

            Thank you for your comments. I did mention that Deboreh was a Judge and Propet to all of Israel.
            Deboreh served God by judging all of Israel, which includes men and women. Deboreh was also used by God to give spiritual guidance to Barak. Please see Judges 4:4-8 and chapter 5 as a reference.

        • George Fillin

          There are no exceptions. If the man who quoted those scriptures knew the law or kept the law he would know that. Yahweh never changes and therefore we sons of Jacob are not consumed.

      • John Taylor

        Deborah Judging Israel was the judgement of God on Israel.

        • Bi

          Thank you for your feedback. Please read Judges 4:4-8.and chapter 5 that provides the biblical text regarding the life of Deboreh. She served God in the role of a Prophet and as a Judges. She sat under a palm tree and she judged the people, all of Israel, and both men and women. God used Deboreh to give spiritual guidance to Barak as the LORD guided her. God did place her in high position of spiritual authority.

      • Kari Gold

        Amen.

      • Matthew

        The examples you use are times when Israel was unrepentant, and God chose to punish them by taking their authority over the kingdom away. You should NEVER get your theology from exceptions, or parables, as that will always get you in trouble. Read the majority of Jesus’ teachings, and the old testament are clear that men are to be over the Church.

    • Pamela Hankins

      Reading through the comments, one thing is missing, that the word regarding ‘women’ in Paul’s epistle to the Corinthians most likely refers specifically to the wives who were the ones causing all the ruckus, which prompted the letter in the first place. Taken in context of the rest of the NT Scriptures there were women such as Junia (among the apostles Romans 16:7) and other women acknowledged to be in the ministry. And bear in mind that the Scriptures Gal 3:28 and Col 3:11, where we are told there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free in the body of Christ. But, there ARE lots of people who are presumptuous and loud, over-bearing, and in need of being reined in. They tend to be most obviously women. They are simply out of order. Women were first in the transgression and usually more gullible, driven by their emotions, and easily led (sorry, I was one once and it took a LONG time to grow up and be schooled in the Word of God). We need to walk HUMBLY with our God, and yield.

      • Reason2012

        Reading through the comments, one thing is missing, that the word regarding ‘women’ in Paul’s epistle to the Corinthians most likely refers specifically to the wives who were the ones causing all the ruckus, which prompted the letter in the first place.

        We don’t need “most likely” guesses when the verses are clear: he refers back to women in general by pointing out in genesis it was a woman that was in the transgression, not a man, which backs up his claim that women in general are not to be preachers, are to be silent in the churches.

        Taken in context of the rest of the NT Scriptures there were women such as Junia (among the apostles Romans 16:7) and other women acknowledged to be in the ministry.

        Not true. Read it again. I pointed this out below, but you didn’t read through the comments.

        Romans 16:7 “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

        And that’s assuming “Junia” was translated from a woman’s name, but as Amos pointed out, it was translated from Iounias in Greek, which means “a Christian”

        And even then, it doesn’t say they were apostles – it says they were “of NOTE’ among the apostles – that the apostles knew them quite well. The apostles were only the twelve, who were bestowed with the ability to perform miracles.

        And bear in mind that the Scriptures Gal 3:28 and Col 3:11, where we are told there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond nor free in the body of Christ.

        Homosexual activists use that verse to claim God is fine with two men marrying, since “there is neither male nor female”. It should concern you that you use the same logic to refute other parts of what God says you do not like.

        Context.

        The verse is merely talking about salvation and that we’re all one in Christ – that it’s available to all – that it doesn’t matter if you’re Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

        We need to walk HUMBLY with our God, and yield.

        Correct. Including yielding to His command that women are not to be preachers, are to be silent in the churches, if they are to learn are to ask their husband at home (translation: the husband is the spiritual leader), that leaders are to be the husband of one wife only and so on.

        It doesn’t matter what we like or don’t like about parts of God’s Word – we either obey it or rationalize our disobedience only to deal with God when the time comes, along with those we deceived with us.

        • Guest254

          The wasnt in transgression. Adam reveiled the commandment.

          • Kevin Quillen

            Job 31:33 might be of interest to you. Adam might not have done a good enough job of explaining to Eve. May have fallen short of his responsibility.

          • Guest254

            Did you read my comment? Adam received the commandment not Eve. Their eyes where opened after he ate. Furthermore he couldn’t explain what he wasn’t explained to understand. God only gave a commandment, without explanation.

          • Reason2012

            I was referencing this:
            1 Timothy 2:14 “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

          • Guest254

            First, you have to understand that Paul’s letter are hard to be understood according to 2 Peter Chapter 3. Second, that letter was personal to Timothy with much sarcasm disputing the Jews (Circumcision) laws, customs and traditions tats came from man. 1 Timothy 2:15 will help you understand this. A woman can’t be saved by childbearing. Third Adam received the commandment before the woman was formed. So he did indeed trangress. But Adam didnt understand transgression, neither did Eve because according to Genesis 3:22 they weren’t created to reason with God, until the fall introduced the knowledge of good and evil.
            Paul was making fun of their (Jews) understanding of the scriptures and how they treated women as if they can’t think. I understand that they may be weaker in strength but when it comes to knowledge and understanding this isn’t so.

            I pray this helps you

          • Reason2012

            First, you have to understand that Paul’s letter are hard to be understood according to 2 Peter Chapter 3.

            This may be but there’s nothing hard to understand about “the woman being deceived was in the transgression” or “Adam was not deceived” as if they now mean the opposite. Clearly the Bible is pointing out that Eve was “in the transgression” because “she was deceived” but Adam “was not deceived”. So that needs to be looked into more rather than just us deciding that verse is wrong and that adam was “in the transgression” as well.

            Maybe it’s because she premeditated about it, lusted about it, and then took action, but perhaps Adam just mindlessly ate with no forethought. Who knows.

            A woman can’t be saved by childbearing.

            Correct. It’s not talking about physically bearing a child saves you – the implication in so many words is about walking the faith and being the wife of and the mother of the children of a saved person. But we must be careful in thinking this automatically means other parts do not mean what they say. For example, some claim none of the Bible is literal, pointing to a few places where it’s clearly not meant to be literal.

            Third Adam received the commandment before the woman was formed. So he did indeed transgress.

            Eve got the commandment as well, even though that actual event was not written – she tells satan all about her knowledge of this commandment, which means God or Adam told her too.

            Genesis 3:1-3 “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”

            And he says Eve was “in the transgression”, and not Adam – so clearly there’s something we do not understand if we say Adam was in the transgression.

            What did it say about Eve that it didn’t say about Adam?

            – She saw the tree was good for food
            – that is was pleasant to the eyes
            – it was desired to make her wise

            So perhaps this is more of the meaning when they make the clear point that Eve was “in the transgression” and not Adam.

            Yes, women can be as smart as men. It doesn’t change the fact that in terms of spiritual leadership in the church and in the home, they are not to take on that role, but to be a help meet instead.

            In any event, this is a rabbit trail we could go back and forth on – it doesn’t change this fact of women not being pastors or teachers in a church.

            Thank you for the feedback.

          • Guest254

            Does being deceived make you a transgressor or actually committing the sin?

            Did not Adam transgress God’s commandment?

            However, it wasn’t sin because sin was not in the world until after they ate.

            They were created as gods, with the ability to reason with good and evil.

            The disciples or called ones can be of any sex. No male nor female are supposed to exercise lordship over God’s heritage as the Gentiles do (Book of Luke) and Jesus said that.

            The man rules AT home, not in chruch. Jesus is the Authority figure of His churches not men.

            However even in the home it should be without lordship if both understand the ways of Jesus.

            I take it that you’re not reading the scriptures I gave you, that clearly shows what Paul is saying. Paul had women fellow laborers Philippians 4:3 and if you look in most letters of the salutations he address women as being such.

            And you’re most welcome. I pray this is to Godly edifying, so that we all may come into the knowledge of Jesus, the Son of God

        • Special

          That chapter didn’t mean for women not to ever preach or speck the Word of God. At that specific time He wanted the women to be quite. The great commission said we are all preachers of Word. We are all meant to spread the Gospel of God.

          • BravesFan

            Spreading the gospel is not the same as being a pastor.

          • Reason2012

            Except nowhere does the Bible mention “only for a certain time”, and even rebukes this claim by going all the way back to Adam and Eve as part of the reason women should not be pastors, not instead pretending Adam and Eve are why women shouldn’t be pastors “for a certain time only”.

            1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”

            1 Timothy 2:11-14 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

            1 Timothy 3:1-2 “This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;”

            Titus 1:6-9 “If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”

            Ephesians 5:22-25 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

            1 Peter 3:1-6 “Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.”

        • Pamela Hankins

          I said ‘most likely’ to soften the fact that in context it the Scriptures actually say WIVES. I agree that using vague language is unwise. Yes, the woman was in the transgression and is still very apt to be gullible and impetuous. The most important thing is to wait. I have found in my own life that if I will ‘step back’ in my spirit, the Holy Spirit will do the work. If we cling to any ideology based on the Word or not, it’s easy to err. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the individual heart to the individual. God is not in a box, and He can do whatever He wants and use whomever He wants. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. This truth is hard to articulate because without the willingness of the individual to obey, anything can be justified and/or condemned. God will judge the hearts of men. I have sought the Lord regarding these things and continue to do so. He is welcome to correct me and doesn’t need my permission to do so. He promised to lead us and guide us into all truth, and if we are in anything otherwise minded (says Paul in Phil 3) He will reveal it to us. The Psalmist David starts Psalm 139 with how God knows us most intimately, and yet he ends the Psalm with ‘search me and try me and see if there be any wicked way in me!’ This relationship is a living relationship. The heart is the most important thing, and we are to hold it open to the light of God’s Word for examination. As for me, for your sake, I will say that I have been silent, waiting on the Lord for a full fifty years. if I am being presumptuous now, I would rather be dead. Passion doesn’t make anyone right, but I know He leads, and corrects, and knows all things. He is able to take the words we speak and redeem them. Most ‘preaching’ is full of error, yet as Paul said, I rejoice that the Gospel is being preached.

    • Guest254

      You left out verse 36 of the Corinthian quote

  • gmajeri

    By doing this. she is teaching every teenage girl in the congregation that what the Bible says doesn’t matter and that it is ok to have sex before marriage.

    • tatoo

      As if teenage girls don’t know this already.

      • Sally Penfold

        But some church teens will look up to her and take this as permission to be looser.

    • Sally Penfold

      Agree. She is not thinking of how we are role-models to those around us. If younger people look at us and we sin openly, they will not think it’s wrong to do the same. She has no clue about the wider picture and is only worried about her satisfaction in bed and in the job she has.
      Think more highly of others than yourself. Phil 2:3
      (paraphrase) Don’t cause your brother to stumble because you feel free to do something, that he is weak in. Romans 8

  • pam

    A real Christian hates their sins, not glory in them.

  • Dan Jones

    What part of 1 Timothy 3:2 do people not get? Either follow the Word of God or go live like you want because it doesn’t matter….

    Always be a light that is shininginthedark

    • Peter Archer

      The church seems messy, yet it still stands throughout all generations. She has not murdered anyone as so called men of God did. Even she, a Pastor’s Pastor deserves our forgiveness. What about our hidden sins not yet exposed?

      • Guest✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

        Adultery and fornication is murder. Look up how Christ defines it. He says sinning against one’s own body is one of the worst things one can do. As far as forgiveness goes, this woman is hardly repenting of anything. She’s wiped her mouth and declared she’s done nothing wrong.

      • Andrew Dunlap

        yes we should forgive her but we also need to stand for order and discipline in the local church. She should step down and get rehabilitated. She is defying biblical authority by not repenting. She is justifying her behavior.

  • Judy Jacks

    As a born again Christian she should have just come clean and said, “I screwed up, I gave into temptation” and repented like David did. That is why David was a man after God’s own heart, not because he was perfect, but, when he screwed up he knew how much it hurt his best Friend in the world. Just like “slut shaming” is wrong, so is arrogant defiance. So sad the organized church has been “falling away” from the truth for many years now and it will only get worse, which is why so many truly born again believers have left it.

    • Andy

      While I agree with most of what you said, true born again believers will NEVER leave the church. You may leave an apostate organization and join with a Bible preaching/teaching church. However, if you are truly following Christ you will never leave His church. He values His church too much to desire His people to leave it. BUT, not all organizations which claim to be the “church” are part of His church. Find one that is (though they are not perfect, they are still out there) and join with it or partner with other believers and start one.

  • http://webbpage.cwahi.net/ RadarRecon

    Just what is “marriage”? A piece of paper? Standing in front of a group of people in a wedding ceremony and declaring your love to one individual?
    If so, then Adam and Eve were not married and the entire human race is bastardized.

    Marriage is a union of three people: a man, a woman, and the God who made them. If any one of these is left out (most commonly God, although “same-sex marriages” fit this category), then it is not a marriage and is a sin in the eyes of God.

    If the man and woman are committed to a lifetime together and make that vow to God, wherever and whenever it may be, then they are married.

    This article doesn’t mention a commitment between any two of these persons. Is the man in the photo her paramour? Has she or will she make a public announcement that she is committed to him? Perhaps they have already had a “marriage ceremony,” but that also is not mentioned. If she just had a “fling” and became pregnant, THAT is a sin. Otherwise, there are questions to be answered.

    • TRUTHMATTERS

      You compromise the truth because you love the lie

    • BravesFan

      You might want to go back and read the Bible.

  • hal mac

    1 Corinthians Chapter 6:9 – “Pastor” might try to read it sometime. I guess God changes His rules for you because your so special.

    • Amos Moses

      might try reading Titus and Timothy also ………….

  • jeffm

    I pray that her congregation supports her spiritually, emotionally and materially–as a member in need, not as a pastor. I have no qualms with a female being a pastor. But as pastors we are held to higher standard. Pastors aren’t saints–we sin. But when that sin becomes public, such as adultery or being pregnant out of wedlock, the pastor should then step down. But as with any sin, the sinner(s) must first admit (confess) the sin and repent.

    By the title, one might conclude that there is a senior pastor involved in this congregation. If that is, indeed, the case. Then the senior pastor should take the leadership role and remove her from the pulpit. After making a confession and a time way, then leave the door open for her to return. Her witness and testimony could prove to be invaluable to young people facing similar situations.

  • Andrew Dunlap

    It is apparent from her response that she lacks a fundamental understanding of biblical authority. So how is she serving as pastor of spiritual formation? Who is her Bishop? where are the elders? When we don’t live up to our creed, the message loses its power.

  • http://starlyns.com/ Starlyn

    thats how you know you are not in a christian church 🙂

  • Grace Kim Kwon

    Female ordination itself is a grave illiteracy on the Holy Bible. They should get married right away if they had intimacy.

  • Robert

    She is not advocating abortion that is good. She is not wanting to Hold her reason captive to God’s word instead she uses her reason to lord over Gods word. That’s a bad bad place to be hopefully that changes the more she reads her bible.

  • Robert

    Sorry about that. The people from from your churchs and denominations are not my bussiness their yours. Thanks for deleting my post. I will try to keep my posts on those claiming to be christisn lutherans only.

  • Christina

    GOD’S word and his commandments can never be antiquated.

  • Sherry

    Pride goes before a fall. You teach by your actions, not by your words. Is your attitude the same you feel you should be teaching to your young men and women who are watching you? Are you teaching the kids just to be happy about their sin, without even a mention of the need to repent and ask the Lord for forgiveness? I would suggest you think harder and pray harder about your role as a preacher and teacher.

  • Pamela Hankins

    What? I wonder…is she preaching about? Even if we are right-on about the Scriptures, we can be dead wrong in our behavior. If we are found to be wrong, we need to repent of it. It’s not a matter of our opinion, it’s God’s ‘opinion’ that will judge us. I think of David and Bathsheba…it had to happen as both Solomon and Nathan we in the line of Christ, but David was still wrong and paid the ultimate price in that the first child, (the one conceived out of wedlock), died. Balaam had a gift, that he was able to hear God’s voice, yet the Scriptures say God would not hear him (Balaam) because he insisted on doing what he wanted to do no matter what God had to say about it. It behooves us to question whether we actually believe God, or do what feels good to us, comfortable, easy; what’s understandable in our own minds, not discerning the Word of God. Again, I say, What, exactly is she preaching? Jeremiah 23 speaks of false prophets, (those who are deceived by their own imaginations). It’s worth reading.

  • Royce E. Van Blaricome

    The irony here is just TOO much!!! I just spent 30min replying to several comments on the Tchividjian story about whether he’s qualified to be a pastor or not. Now this!!

    Can there be any question in light of the pastoral epistles? Moreover, she’s the pastor of arts and spiritual formation at First Corinthian Baptist Church in NYC. Wonder if she’s ever read 1st Cor. 5??????!!!!!!!!

    Nor do I imagine she’s even thought about 1st Cor. 6:9-11. Hope she reads Matt. 7:21-23 before it’s too late!!

    This would be a REALLY good story for a Bible Study and I hope folks will read it. And, while doing so, I hope they don’t miss the words like “proud”, “not sorry”, “antiquated”, “MY”, and all the others that identify her as an apostate!!

    And btw, you can almost always count on something being wrong when it starts out with “in my opinion” – especially coming from a so-called “pastor”.

  • Jack

    Please step down from the ministry. With all due respect, you have not read the Bible and do not know God’s word or more importantly His commandments. You, as well as so many others these days, are making Christianity look like a joke and it’s not. Please find humility, step down from your position and truly seek God. To all the members of this church, you need to help this woman and if she won’t change you need to find another church.

  • bowie1

    Why not admit you made a mistake, and ask God to forgive, so the conscience is clear?

  • Matthew

    Wow, I guess all the scripture about being a Virgin on your wedding day means nothing because Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit! Got ya, your congregation is being led straight to Hell!!! Good job lady!!!

  • edwitness

    According to Paul’s teaching she should not be “in the pulpit” anyway. She is the weaker vessel and therefore is not to instruct the man in theological matters. With her acceptance as a pastor by those who attend that church, it is no wonder that they are so accepting of something like this that is so obviously unbiblical.
    Laodicea.

  • TwoRutRoad

    There seems to be lot of stone throwing in these comments, along with the poor opinion of women: “Let your women keep silence in the churches…” Notice the second word? Not only are they treated as lesser beings than men, they are property. Why do women put up with this?

    • Amos Moses

      Women in rebellion do not ….. women in submission to GOD do ….. and do out of respect for GOD …….

    • Amos Moses

      we are all Gods property and what we all do is in submission to God and His will …… it is His church and he rules it … not us ……….

  • DW

    Hmm. What an interesting conversation she will have with a Holy God one day.

  • buchajo1

    The Bible is a suggestion then? That’s what she is saying…. well… that’s what most other preachers in America these days are preaching too. So, just fall in line with them.

    Crazy. All in or all out. Don’t sit on the fence!

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Yep

  • Guest254

    #1 Being a Pastor is a special calling from Jesus himself who fore ordained his called before the foundation of the world. It is a divine appointment to those who God chooses to be leaders of His flock to serve and do His will.

    • Amos Moses

      She can be given repentance and forgiven …… but she is in a position she should not be in ………..

      • Guest254

        Are you saying that she is in this position because you heard directly from God that she isn’t called to be a Pastor or because she is a woman?

        • Amos Moses

          Scripture says …. and since scripture is from God …. we all have …. who have chosen to listen ………..

          • Guest254

            Which scriptures are you in reference to? Just so we are clear on interpretation. In Genesis Chapters 1-5, God created Adam, male and female. Adam was their name. After the fall Adam (man) called his wife Eve. Acts Chapter 2 God said He will poor out His Spirit upon His sons and daughters. Paul’s letter to the churches are refuting the Jewish customs. Those under the Circumcision (law of Moses) made man made rules. 1 Corinthians 11:16 Paul clearly says that it is not so in the church of God. They were giving men and women husband and wife roles, not Jesus servants of the gospel.

            Let all knowledge and understanding be to God edifying, so we all came come into knowledge of the real Jesus, the Son of God who came in the flesh and died and was resurrextend by God the Father.

            I affirm that God asigns His sons and daughter as in Ephesians 4:11.

          • Amos Moses

            “Adam was their name.”

            No …. it became his name but the word translated is:

            H120
            אָדָם
            ‘âdâm
            aw-dawm’
            From H119; ruddy, that is, a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.): – X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

            2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
            2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
            2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
            2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

          • Guest254

            Genesis 5:2 clearly states that Adam was their name in the day that they were created.

            Can a woman be saved in childbearing?

            Paul was having a personal conversation with Timothy about the Jewish custom.

            A Pastor is there to preach the gospel of Jesus. They are not in any authority position, she is teaching and feeding the flock of God

            Jesus clearly says that His disciples are not to be in authority in the book of Luke.

            What this scripture is in reference to is the Jewish customs and traditions and how they oppose the gospel and the Holy Spirit. In their custom they wouldn’t allow a woman to do such things. But now we are under a new and better covenant.

          • Amos Moses

            ALL scripture is given by the HOLY SPIRIT ……… so again ….. you discount the scriptural record and yes …. women are saved in childbearing ………..

          • Guest254

            And you have to have the Holy Spirit to fully understand what He is saying in the scriptures.

            And I believe that all are saved by Jesus and believing that He is the Son of God, that Jesus was manifested in the flesh, He died on a cross, Jesus shed his blood to remit sins of mankind. Jesus was resurrected and is at the right hand of God our Father.

          • Amos Moses

            “Genesis 5:2 clearly states that Adam was their name in the day that they were created.”

            Genesis 1 states it as otherwise ……………..

            Gen 1:27 So GodH430 createdH1254 (H853) man H120

          • Guest254

            Man as in mankind. Not gender specific. Genesis 5:2 doesn’t contradict.

            Sounds like you areally trying to confuse me with those numbers.

            And we know confusion isn’t of God.

            As for Paul
            2 Peter 3:15-16 King James Version (KJV) 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

            16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

          • Amos Moses

            no confusion ….. the name used is what God gave them at their creation in Genesis 1 ….. Hebrew 120 is adam and means a man, a human being ….. but scripture goes on to use it as Adam, a name …… it is the same word ……

          • Guest254

            God gave male and female the name Adam because the kingdom of God doesn’t identify male and female the way man on earth does.
            Adam called his wife Eve after the fall.

            But according to 2 Timothy 2:22-26; I have to end this debate. However I’m all for learning truth about Jesus and Godly edification

            May you be blessed from God with full knowledge and understanding of Jesus to go with the zeal you have to prove His Son and may you works on earth be blessed. In Jesus Name.

          • Guest254

            Also I see you deleted the comment that you stated a women could be saved by childbearing

          • Amos Moses

            “God gave male and female the name Adam because the kingdom of God doesn’t identify male and female the way man on earth does. ”

            WRONG ….. they were on earth ………… and in fact …. scripture says ……

            1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

            AGAIN ………. “male and female created he them.” ………………..

          • Guest254

            And God called their name Adam in the day they were created. Again in the kingdom of heaven, it’s not gender specific because they aren’t given into marriage. But on earth, mankind marries.

            And the topic of my question is about roles not gender.

            It doesn’t matter what sex you are, if you are called then you are called.

            Aquila and his wife Priscilla and again

            Paul addresses women as FELLOW laborers of the gospel.

            The gender specific role is preached for the home. How a man is to rule his own home but the church or body of Jesus is not so.

            Twisting words I see

          • Guest254

            What this scripture is saying is that when God created man (mankind) God created them (mankind) male and female.

            The twain are one flesh and the woman was created to help the man or be suitable for procreation.

            God didn’t assign the society roles. That came from Man’s laws.

            I know that a man and woman have different genitalia but that doesn’t stop a woman from being able to reason with the Word of God or preach the Word of God.

            God be the judge and He has appointed a day.

            I applaud her for not being ashamed because there is no condemnation to those in Jesus.

            I pray that she isn’t still committing this sin or teaching others them same. If she is God already said what he would do in His Word.

            We should be praying for those who even believe in Jesus that they don’t go astray or be lead astray.

          • Guest254

            Amos Moses
            ALL scripture is given by the HOLY SPIRIT ……… so again ….. you discount the scriptural record and yes …. women are saved in childbearing ………..
            12:39 p.m., Monday Nov. 28 | Other comments by Amos Moses

            I just thought it fair to copy your notification and keep your answers on thread

  • Guest254

    For those who think women can’t be Pastors or leadership. Take a good look at 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and verse 16 in particular. You have to get a clear understanding of why Paul says what he says to the churches and to Timothy and Titus in those letters.

  • Mark Littleton Sr

    There is a church on every corner in America BUT the gate is narrow and few there be that find it. The road to destruction is broad and wide.

  • Guest254

    It’s not a good example. She shouldn’t feel ashamed or condemned. Therefore there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. I hope she isn’t continuing the sin though. Once you confess and receive forgiveness from God our Father, we are suppose to carry on and move out. This is her thorn not ours. But again a pastor is a God appointed position.

    • Amos Moses

      not a woman pastor ……….

      • Guest254

        Is that your understanding of Paul to the Corinthians, Timothy and Titus. Read the whole chapter before concluding your statement

        • Amos Moses

          i have read them and a woman is not the HUSBAND of one WIFE ……….. women have a different role in the church ….. and it is not the same role as men …. not less … not more ….. DIFFERENT ….

  • michael louwe

    She got pregnant while she was engaged to be married = mistake in the practice of birth-control.? Why did she n her fiance not get married b4 the babies’ birth.?

    Maybe bc only single mothers can receive generous social welfare benefits from the liberal Blue States, esp in NY city. The blacks r famous for this, ie lazy welfare queens who hv around 4 “illegitimate” kids n living off the stoopid n vote-pandering liberal govt.

  • Poor Richard

    As a Bible believer who understands God’s Word as an absolute, her staying around without getting married is troublesome as both a leader and role model. However, at least they are engaged so why not just fix the issues with a civil service now and then have the church wedding as planned. Her not quietly “fixing” this issue in private (with a civil service) is most troubling, and her attitude compounds this situation’s “big picture” without that ever having been necessary.

    I’m seeing bigger problems then these twins though, I see the foundation of a cult of “do as thou wilt” forming in her words and by her actions. If she thinks she knows better then the Lord what is best for her and her “flock” then the followers really need to rethink their participation. This is taking seeker sensitive to a new level.

    As to females delivering the message, sometimes actions speak louder then words and must be considered despite what certain denominations put forth. Who did Yeshua first tell to spread the word about His being risen? That example has to count for something.

  • Becky

    The blind leading the blind…an unmarried, pregnant woman who refers to herself as a pastor that spews false teachings to a false church. They have nothing to do with God’s people.

    “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” Revelation 14:12

    “For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:50

    “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.” John 10:27-30

  • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

    Just wondering where the head of this church is in all of this. Since the situation isn’t HER truth as she says, where does he stand on the truth?

  • Sally Penfold

    It’s a sad message overall in this article. She makes some good points, but it doesn’t justify her position. She boldly admits that she doesn’t believe in or respect Jesus word as true. That He gave His teaching to help us and guide us, not as a non-fiction novel that is too old to be relevant. He is holy and pure, we are not. He takes sin seriously, He warns us, He intercedes for us, He loves us, but He must also punish and correct us, if we carry on doing it and don’t repent of it.

    He fully understands our weakness and vulnerable humanity, and is always willing to forgive, but it’s our part to confess and admit we did wrong. So He can make us clean and enable us to move on and not return to our sin, whatever it may be.

    Revelation clearly says who will NOT be inside the new Jerusalem or heavenly realm – fornicators, adulterers, sorcerers, idolaters, murderers, etc. (Rev 21:8) He said their lot awaits them in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. Maybe her sin is not so great in God’s eyes, but what if it is? Why did He say what He did if He doesn’t back it up? Does she want to take that risk to ignore the commands and guidance of God through His OWN words. I don’t think it’s worth the risk to take God too lightly.

  • Trilemma

    The Bible defines what is sexually immoral in a number of places. Leviticus 18 and 20 list many sexual acts that are immoral. Even though many forms of sex outside of marriage are defined as immoral, there is nothing against a non-virgin single woman having sex with a single man who is not a relative. So Desiree Allen is not guilty of any sexual sin while being a pastor according to the Bible.

    Paul’s instructions to churches concerning the place of women in the church were written to specific churches in specific cultures. Times have changed. Just because it may have been inappropriate for a woman to serve as a pastor 2000 years ago doesn’t mean it’s inappropriate today.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Some comments just kinda leave your jaw hanging. I was so going to walk off but couldn’t resist. So, you saying since a woman is no longer a virgin, she can just go out & screw anybody & it’s just hunky dory? Or are there limits? At what point is she (or he) a ho? What is the number she (or he) has to stop at? As long as she doesn’t charge for these sexual encounters, she’s not a prostitute so she’s good then, right? Yippee!!!! All these years I thought I was just a dirty ho. Well, let me restate that. I’m a forgiven dirty ho.

      • Trilemma

        1 Co 6:12 – NASB, says, “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.” Even though smoking is not a sin, it may not be wise to indulge in it. Even though drinking alcohol may not be a sin, it may not be wise to indulge in it. And even though sex outside of marriage may not be a sin, it may not be wise to indulge in it.

        • Carrie Ashford-Frabasilio

          You have obviously a completely different bible then I or anyone else possess. I have never read that verse, nor does it resemble the verse you quoted. Your previous comment was jaw dropping. As obviously God’s Word changes according to the times and culture, as you state, which could not be further from the truth. Scripture and God state from Genesis to Revelation, the He changes Not!! I am sad and actually quite disgusted to see my Father’s Word twisted in to such utter depravity to justify abhorrent sinful behavior. It is one thing to have a difference of opinion on doctrine, but to change the Word of God to suit your sinful lifestyle choices is quite another. She is unrepentant, boldly sinful, and has a position she should never have according to scripture, she should be shunned and cast out. That her church supports her views and sinning, casts a dark shadow upon the entire church body.

          • Trilemma

            1 Co 6:12 – NASB, says, “All things are lawful for me, but not all
            things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be
            mastered by anything.”

            What does your Bible say 1 Corinthians 6:12 say?

            Where in the Bible does it say that a non-virgin single woman having sex with a single man who is not a relative is sexually immoral?

          • Reason2012

            Using your logic, then according to 1 Cor 6:12, lying is lawful, stealing is lawful, covetousness is lawful, using God’s name in vain is lawful and so on.

            Context. You left out the verse after it, which shows it’s referring to meats, that was the issue being addressed where some considered certain things unlawful. and you left out the few verses right before it, which shows adulterers and/or fornicators will not enter into the kingdom of heaven – yet here you are promoting fornication as just fine. I would think again as any who get deceived that you claiming this you will be responsible for.

            1 Corinthians 6:9-13“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
            All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.”

            So you’ll need to cite the verse that says fornication – sex_outside marriage, is just fine “as long as both are single”?

            The Bible makes it clear over and over again: marriage and then_sex – that fornication is a sin.

          • Trilemma

            If the Bible doesn’t mean what it says then it doesn’t say anything at all. So if Paul says all things are lawful, then all things are lawful. Even though lying may be lawful, it usually is not profitable to indulge in it. However, there are times when it is morally right to lie. In fact, in John 7:8 Jesus is recorded lying to his brothers. When Paul said all things are lawful, he was stating a general principle. He then applied this principle to a specific case involving meats.

            1 Corinthians 6:9 – NIV: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

            The word “fornicators” is a poor translation of the Greek in the KJV. Newer translations say “sexually immoral” instead. The Bible describes many things as sexually immoral such as adultery, sex with animals, prostitution, and many forms of incest. Nowhere in the Bible is a man condemned as sexually immoral for having a concubine which means he’s having sex outside of marriage. So clearly sex outside of marriage is not always a sin. But where in the Bible does it say that a non-virgin single woman having sex with a single man who is not a relative is sexually immoral?

        • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

          When the word says sexual immorality, what do you define that as being?

          • Trilemma

            My idea of what’s sexually immoral is different than what the Bible considers sexually immoral. The Bible describes many things as sexually immoral such as adultery, sex with animals, prostitution and many forms of incest, all of which I consider sexually immoral as well. However, the Bible does not consider it immoral for a married man to have a concubine. The Bible doesn’t say it’s immoral for a man to have sex with his own daughter. The Bible doesn’t consider rape immoral, even going so far as to require a woman to marry her rapist. But I consider these things to be sexually immoral as well.

  • Roy Hobs

    One Flesh is the marriage of two flesh into one. She was joined along time ago.

  • Emmanuel

    What is sad, the fools that call her pastor.

  • Nancy L Jarosik

    This is not approved of God. She is not an example I want for my children.

  • lee metzger

    Really? Fornication “antiquated” language? She’s got at least two things wrong here. One, that she’s a pastor to begin with which is expressly forbidden in Scripture, and Two, that fornication is antiquated language. Does she have no fear of standing before God one day as we all will on Judgment Day? Astonishing that one who claims to be a herald of the gospel shows so much contempt for clear messages in that gospel.

    • BravesFan

      More people need a fear of God. A healthy FEAR. I think everyone has gone too far on the LOVE and made Him a mushy teddy bear hippie.

      • lee metzger

        Totally agree!

  • John Taylor

    1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
    1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
    1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

    • Trilemma

      You’ve quoted Paul speaking for himself to a specific pastor of a specific church in a specific culture. What he said here should not be applied universally.

      • John Taylor

        It applies to us today… Men are to teach and preach, women are to be keepers at home and silent in the assembly.

        • John Taylor

          So you are saying women can wear immodest apparel, not have good works, not have children and raise them well, not continue in faith and charity and holiness and sobriety??

          • Trilemma

            Women can wear what Paul would undoubtedly consider immodest apparel but is considered modest by our culture. Women don’t need to have babies in order to be saved. Good works, faith, charity, and holiness are covered elsewhere in the Bible.

          • John Taylor

            The “modest” womens clothing of todays western culture is the attire of a harlot, nakedness or dressing like a man, it is no biblically acceptable.

          • Trilemma

            So you would have every woman in church dress like a nun?

          • John Taylor

            Not like a Nun as that is the ridiculous doctrine of the false church known as Catholicism. But certainly modest, if a woman wants to show the thigh or have tight clothing hugging body curves and parts then she has an issue with holiness and piety. pretty simple really. both men and women should be covered in loose fitting modest clothing. no brainer really.

          • Trilemma

            A nun’s habit is based on what the Bible says is how a woman should dress to be modest. The head should be covered. The arms covered to the wrists. The legs covered to the ankles. No jewelry and no makeup. I agree that tight clothing and short dresses/skirts are not modest.

          • John Taylor

            There are no NuNs in the Bible, nuns are not christians, they are catholic, big difference.. Real christian women have always dressed modestly, covering tmselves. This woman in the article should never have been teaching or preaching, nor being called pastor.

          • Trilemma

            Catholics are Christians. Desiree Allen is a Christian. Just because Desiree Allen shouldn’t be a pastor at your church doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be a pastor at some other church.

          • John Taylor

            1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
            1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
            1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
            1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
            1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
            1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

          • Trilemma

            In 1Ti 2:11-12, Paul is saying what he wants and doesn’t want concerning women and is making it clear he is not speaking for God.

            1Ti 3:1-2 does not apply since Desiree Allen is not a bishop.

            1Co 14:34-35 is addressing a problem of disorder in church and is not telling women to be completely silent in church. In 1Co 14:39, he tells women to be eager to prophesy in church.

  • IzTheBiz

    What a state to be in, that you don’t know its wrong !ooops! I got busted! It’s called glorying in your shame!

  • PK Hodges

    It is hard to walk straight with twisted Shepherds who teach twisted things. “When he, Jesus, saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were confused and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.” God is seeing and saying again the words He spoke thru Jeremiah,”My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds have led them astray. They have made them turn aside on the mountains; They have gone along from mountain to hill And have forgotten their resting place.” God is that resting place thru the Lord Jesus Christ who, through death on the cross, freed us FROM sin, not free TO sin. God’s seeing and He’s calling it as He sees it. Woe to the blind shepherds who are twisting the Way of God and calling it antiquated, old-fashioned, untrendy. God is seeing and He’s as-ssaying to the twisted shepherds: ” “You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock. Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them.” God’s seeing the People you have scattered and torn apart and confused by your self-serving twisted ways and twisted words. God is seeing and God is as-saying. “You are going down a twisted path, shaped like the dragon you follow, but you will not take my People with you. I have placed in my land Shepherds who speak My words. I am stretching forth my hand to deliver my people. In my hand is a sheperd’s staff. I am holding that staff and saying to each of the sickly and diseased and broken and scattered, “Get off that twisted path. Don’t follow them. Come back to the truth and be healed and restored and found.

  • JohnnyHeart

    I have read about 70 or so comments and have had enough. If she was a drug addicted alcoholic nymphomaniac who also had 100 kids out of wedlock, the angels would all sing with great joy if she brought one of the lost back to the shepherd who quietly calls without stop.

    All of these comments smell like over cooked leaven and will bear no fruit. Leave this girl alone, Caiphus wannabes. There is a lion on a throne and all the universe from rocks to planets to people will never ever say another word about one of His creations who wants to tell the news of Jesus Christ.

    Be still. And SHUT UP! Lest that lion eye you.

  • Vic Christian

    Wow! First she ignores scripture and becomes a female pastor, then she again ignores scripture by having sex outside of marriage. Where is her repentance of either?

  • xKennedy

    if i was on the fence about giving my life to Christ and joining a church this post would turn me completely away. the church is always talking about forgiveness and grace and mercy yet they fail to extend these gifts to each other. hypocritical? oh heck yeah! self-righteous? of course! judgmental? the very definition. the bible says “you will know them by their fruits.”

    • Reason2012

      The church is always talking about forgivenness and grace and mercy yet they fail to extend these gifts

      Most professing Christians, according to Jesus, are not really saved, few actually are, according to Jesus. We cannot judge being a born again believer in God by what false Christians do. We’d still be responsible for our own guilt before God, and using the behaviors of those not saved as a reason to reject coming to God would not spare us from the judgment for our own guilt.

      Seek God. Leave the false Christians up to Him to deal with.

  • Kari Gold

    There is nothing EVER to be proud of by being in sin. I’m mortified when I live in my own strength and decisions, instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me.

  • midogman

    at least she hasn’t opted for an abortion.

    • http://www.personaltouchmaids.org/ TammyHenson

      Amen to that. That would be the worse thing ever.

    • TheBottomline4This

      True, but that doens’t lessen her other sins. She isn’t a Pastor regardless of what she thinks. The Bible says so on that.

  • Guest254

    Why is this more about her being female and Pastor, rather than a disciple or Jesus fully turning away from error?

  • Reason2012

    Why do some try to undermine God’s word that is very clear in the NT about women not being pastors, to instead ignore what God says because they refuse to submit to what God commands? And of course living in willful disobedience to God, is it any surprise that she would openly commit fornication, refuse to repent, refuse to be sorry, and refuse to even be ashamed about it? Just a natural consequence of her already making it clear she only cares about what God says if she likes it.

  • Clae Brewer

    I do pray for her and that correction is imminent. However the body of Christ has conformed to society and has all the undertones of a worldly faction. The People of God need to seek the Face of God and repent because what she did is the poster child of what atrociously is going on in the personal lives of believers who embraces compromised morals AT EVERY DEGREE. God says’ If my People” not If my Politicians, Senators, Police Officers, President, but “If MY PEOPLE”. Who are the people of God, but ever person professing Jesus as Lord and Savior. We are the answer with the light and salt embodied in us. Christ would have us to be the impact to a fallen world and derailed general populus. 2 Chronicles 7:14 Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.

  • wit brown

    Her arrogance is astounding…
    quote,”.. become pregnant outside of wedlock says she won’t step down from the pulpit, stating that she is not “sorry or ashamed.”” How in God’s name can she be forgiven , if she has NO intention of repenting with godly sorrow fir SIN.? She is an apostate , coupled with the fact that she is a woman pastor, means she is in a state of deception, taking advantage of God’s Grace and mercy.
    But she is NOT alone. Christendom has gone a whoring after strange gods of “self, pleasure, wealth , fame and feel good doctrines” that tickles the ears.
    And we wonder why society is so messed up? Look no further than the Church.
    A purging is necessary…May God help me to be in Line with His Word –Amen.

  • TheBottomline4This

    She’s not a Pastor per the Bible and she is maybe not saved.
    Thus, what else can you expect from an unbeliever.

  • NJ Constitarian

    You cannot rationalize your sin, but you can repent.

  • nineleven

    women should not be pastors. this is direct opposition to Paul’s instructions about women being under the authority of men.

  • William

    Using the virgin conception of Mary to justify fornication is bad theology/exegesis?!

  • MEP1101

    FULFILLMENT OF JESUS PARABLE OF “THE WHEAT AND THE WEEDS”!